"It's like you always have to put on a happy face, be the phony baloney, and I'm so not that. I never was that; I'll never be that. That is part of the business that I don't like. Maybe that will always keep me an outsider, I don't know. But that's fine." Chloe Sevigny link
There are a few things that have me curious about Pete Wilson's resignation from Cross Point Church for what is being called *burnout.* I think it is important to look at this because now social media is producing post after post about pastors and burnout here and here.
Wilson's Statement to Cross Point
Here is Wilson's statement to his church.The church emphasized that they did not ask Wilson to leave.
(I bolded a few things in this release.)
"We have a community here at Cross Point where everyone’s welcome because nobody’s perfect and we really believe that anything’s possible. We believe that. And it’s been my priority, what I’ve been focused on for the past 14 years: creating a community like that. In the meantime, I haven’t prioritized some other things that were equally as important. Leaders who lead on empty don’t lead well. For some time, I’ve been leading on empty.
I think the best thing for Cross Point is for me to step aside. And so I’m resigning as the pastor of Cross Point. I can’t thank you all enough for trusting me, for allowing me to be a part of your lives. You’ve trusted me in some very intimate moments—from the loss of loved ones to your weddings to praying with you for healing or for your marriage or for the child you long for—so thank you for allowing me to be a part of those journeys with you.
And now, more than ever before—I really need your prayers and I need your support. We’ve said that this is a church where it’s okay to not be okay, and I’m not okay. I’m tired. And I’m broken and I just need some rest. I love you all; I love the vision of this church more today than I ever have. I believe in the elders of this church, I believe in the leaders of this church. I believe they have a good handle on this situation moving forward. I trust them. I love them deeply.
I believe the best days of this church are ahead, and I believe that more today than I ever have. I believe God has a really, really important role for this church to play in our world. So, do good. Be kind. Take risks. More than anything else that we’ve hoped and prayed for here, it’s that the unloved would feel loved.
That’s what I love most about this church—that you love people well. I just want to thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of your family and to be a part of your journey."
Here are the points that jumped out at me.
1. He created a community in which people could be imperfect by he didn't prioritize other things in his life.
2. He was running on empty.
3. He's tired, broken and in need of rest.
4. He didn't say anything specific.
So now he is resting after being hired as the president of A Group just 3 weeks after his resignation from the church? Really?
So, a few weeks after he described himself as broken, tired and in need of rest, he is going to counsel other pastors? Wut?
Here is the announcement: The A Group Welcomes Pete Wilson!
Today, Pete Wilson, author, speaker and former pastor of Cross Point Church in Nashville, TN is joining our team as our new President.
I have known Pete for many years and served on Cross Point’s Board during its first 12 years. As Pete was going through his own discovery journey for the next chapter in his career, I was contemplating The A Group’s future, and how we could best serve our clients. In a series of events that could only be described as “divine intervention,” both stories came together and a new chapter is being written.
I founded The A Group almost 15 years ago, seeing a need to offer churches, ministries and non profits excellent marketing and technology services from people who understood their unique challenges. As The A Group grows and continues to serve organizations in the ever-changing world of technology, faith and culture, I realized that it was time for us to offer a fresh perspective and experience that can only come from recent service in ministry. Pete is the perfect person for that job.
I know Pete’s heart for ministry, as well as the deep knowledge and wisdom he has acquired during his time leading large, growing organizations. Being able to offer his invaluable experience and counsel to other leaders is an honor.
Nearly every client that comes to us is asking the same questions: how do we reach the next generation? How do we grow in an increasingly secular world? How do we adopt new technology and adapt to a new culture without losing our hearts? Pete has navigated that world with incredible wisdom and success, creating a growing, thriving church that reaches across generations. He has invaluable experience and encouragement to offer other leaders who are facing those same challenges.
Ultimately this partnership will bring new perspective, creativity and leadership to our clients as well to our internal team. I can’t tell you how excited I am to have Pete as a part of The A Group!
Here is part of Wilson's announcement at The A Group: A New Chapter
As most of you know, over 3 weeks ago I resigned as the Senior Pastor of Cross Point Church after having started and led the church for 14 years. It was one of the most difficult decisions of my life. I love that church and absolutely everything it stands for. I have years of incredible memories and hundreds of experiences I’ll never forget. I’ll be forever grateful that so many trusted me enough to allow me to be a small part of their life story.
The decision may have seemed quick to some, but I can attest to the fact that it was not. For some time now I’ve felt this general feeling that I was out of season. That it was time for something different.
…I’ve accepted a position as the President of The A Group; a Nashville-based nonprofit/church marketing agency, geared towards partnering with churches, nonprofits, ministries and faith based organizations to increase their impact. I have known Maurilio Amorim, the CEO, since I was a kid and The A Group has been a great marketing and technology partner of Cross Point since day one.
My focus will be to take the lessons I’ve learned in the past 20 years of ministry and leadership and help other pastors and ministries navigate the often unpredictable and challenging waters of ministry.
… I now have the honor of taking all I’ve learned in my time there, and partnering with hundreds of churches and ministries to help them reach their full potential.
It is interesting to note that Wilson has been friends with Maurilio since he was a kid. He also hired Maurilio's' group to help Cross Point while he was a pastor.
What in the world did he mean by broken and how was that cured in 3 weeks?
Christian lingo is often difficult to figure out. Nonetheless, a person who is functioning on empty and is broken is not in a good place. Something is really, really wrong. How does that go away enough after only 3 weeks so that he can counsel other pastors how to do *be successful?*
Dino Rizzo of the ARC shows up to bolster the morale of Cross Point in the wake of Wilson's resignation.
As you may know, Cross Point is a member of the ARC of which Robert Morris, Chris Hodges and Dino Rizzo are leaders. You have never heard of them? You should get to know them because the Arc is planting more churches in the US than any other group. You can read about them here. If you put the word *ARC* in our search engine, you will be able to read about some of the odd beliefs in this group of churches.
Now having Dino Rizzo counsel Cross Point Church is interesting. You see, Dino Rizzo was involved in a rather awkward situation in which he allegedly kept a mistress in a townhouse while he was in charge of The Healing Place and married. You can read the whole story here: Dino Rizzo, Stovall Weems, and Steven Furtick: Banking on the ARC? See if you can find anything interesting in the resignation of Rizzo that reminds you of the Wilson resignation.
So what's the deal with Dino? He is no longer at the church he founded, Healing Place Church (HPC) in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Sometime in the summer of 2012, Rizzo stepped down from his pastorate and the reasons given for this move are a bit sketchy. Here is a report from Charisma News.
"I have not felt myself, spiritually, physically or emotionally for several months now,” says Rizzo, senior pastor of Healing Place Church. "My physically exhausted, spiritually depleted state has affected my decision-making, my family life and my ability to lead effectively."
Apprising Ministries added this tidbit.
The Rizzos took a leave of absence in late July at the behest of the church’s spirituality board because they needed “a sabbatical rest for healing, reflection and restoration of spirit, soul and body,” according to a statement from the board…
The Christian Post chimed in with this. Look carefully at the last two paragraphs. The Healing Place has "overseers?"
Rizzo told the congregation on Sunday, according to The Advocate, that he has "needed a lot of mercy and a lot of grace" over the last couple of months. "To those I have disappointed, I want to say forgive me. I'm sorry if I've ever disappointed you as pastor."
Though many in the church were shocked, Chris Hodges,(ed. note:pastor of the Highlands in Birmingham) one of Healing Place Church's overseers, indicated to the congregation that no additional details would be given about the Rizzos.
"I know you want more than what's being said here today but can you be OK that the seven of us (overseers) know?" Hodges asked, according to The Advocate. "We're going to take care of them and we're going to take care of you. Trust me.
After a nice rest, Rizzo was hired on to work with Chris Hodges at The Church of the Highlands. Rizzo was the one sent to console Cross Point. Either it was deliberate or no one thought about what certain bloggers who watch this stuff might think.
Where is Brandi Wilson?
Brandi, Pete Wilson's wife, was very involved in both the ministry at Cross Point as well as her own ministry, Leading and Loving It. According to their website, it is a ministry that focuses on helping pastors' wives and women in ministry.
According to their website, they are having a Retreat at the end of October in Las Vegas. A couple of months ago, Brandi was slated to be one of the main speakers. See the promo below. (She is in the top middle row.)
Now, take a look at who the speakers are in this later promo. Where is Brandi? This is her organization.
Also, her last Facebook post was on August 1 before Pete Wilson's resignation.
Since the A Group is located in Brentwood, TN, which is only 25 miles from Nashville, we are not talking about some cross country move. So what is really going on? Knowing the ARC, they won't be talking since we need to "trust the leaders."
I believe that the *whole* story has yet to be told because a broken, burned out, exhausted pastor looking for rest and healing does not take on the role of president in a business after a 3 week hiatus. Heck, if that's all he needed, the church could have given him the month off. This burned out stuff appears to be an excuse for something else. What that is, I'll leave up to you.
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First
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@ George:
You are on your toes!
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Not going to speculate, because it could be anything, but I did notice that Pete Wilson was a client of A Group before he became its president. I also noticed some other interesting clients:
* Abingdon Press (a good-sized publisher)
* Radical (why yes, that’d be David Platt)
* Thomas Nelson (big publisher in the Evangelical world)
* Vineyard Worship
* Zondervan (the 800-pound gorilla of the Evangelical publishing world)
Not sure what A Group provided each of these clients in terms of services, but it appears the “counseling” is for “branding, marketing, technology and donor development” and is not “pastoral counseling.” See here:
http://www.agroup.com/services
Basically, he’s selling stuff (websites, content plaforms, branding, etc.) used by churches and other related businesses so they can sell themselves and bring in money in donations and purchases. If it were *me*, and I was coming off burnout in a related employment field (and yes, this is related, look at the clients listed above), I think I would have gone with another job. In fact, I KNOW I would have gone with another job.
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This Pete Wilson guy was a preacher at some big mega church and is claiming he’s tired and burnt out?
Oh, you poor dear you. I’m sure you must be exhausted sitting in your air conditioned office day in and day out, in your puffy, executive office chair, reading John Piper books, while a ghost writer writes theology or devotional books for you, and the rest of your staff purchases pre-made sermons for you online.
And that church was probably paying you a six figure income for all that hard work.
The life of a modern mega church pastor is so, so grueling.
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In the original post, about all the talk about using modern technology to reach people and so on and so forth.
You know, if more churches did what the New Testament tells them to do, which would include –
Love each other, meet each other’s needs, and help those outside the church (e.g., free sandwiches to the homeless, etc), that is draw enough.
You don’t need to have a whiz bang marketing blitz, a social media platform, a hip and cool Sunday worship rock band and all the rest, or jumbo tron video screens in the sanctuary, to appeal to people.
I’d argue that a lot of that sort of thing is one big reason that so many are turned off by churches now-a-days.
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@ Deana Holmes (fka mirele):
Wasn’t FBC Jax a client for the SBC Pastors Conference?
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/02/maurilio-meeting-with-fbc-west-palm.html
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/01/snuggies-from-a-group.html
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There may indeed be something there, but as someone who works at a mega I think burnout is a legitimate thing and I struggle with it myself and I am not a pastor. The hours are brutal and you never get weekends off. Moving to a Monday thru Friday 9-5 type of job may very well be a huge relief to a lead pastor.
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@ Kemi:
This is not a 9-5 job that he has taken on. He is the President and not the custodian.
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@ Daisy:
He would be reading Robert Morris instead of John Piper.
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I don’t know any facts, but I believe we are being told very little for a reason.
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@ Kemi:
I rarely saw staff pastors work more than 20 hours a week. It was one of the things that astounded me about megas. The lower staff worked a lot, though.
Mega church pastors have all sorts of perks that make life much easier and less expensive for them.
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Anonymous wrote:
It might be called the sins of omission. Many Churches are adept at this one.
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Anonymous wrote:
I think when people aren’t open about why they’re leaving (like, he could have said he was taking a job in consulting) it is a good time to be suspicious.
Although this reminds me of a dilbert cartoon where the boss was reading about an employee who had moved on and said ‘notice we did not say his move was happy, or that we wished him well’. I think you have to read the post script in these announcements.
I hate to think it is yet aNOTHER pastor caught with his pants down, but his wife going off social media (after lamely listening ‘social mediaing’ as a hobby)? That’s suggestive.
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This does not compute. He can’t quit his church saying he’s tired, broken, and in need of rest, and then get a demanding job just three weeks later. I smell a rat!
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@ Lydia:
I can only speak for my mega, but our pastors are all working overtime all the time. I think one of the care pastors might be part-time though.
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We have a ministry in my town that meets under an overpass of a road. It’s near the train tracks. The homeless are fed food, then ministered to. Various churches donate money for the food. I don’t know if the big mega church in my town helps this ministry out or not. It’s not that far from the mega church. You would never know about this ministry, except one of the local news stations ran a special on it recently. This is what these burn out pastors need to be doing. Working in shelters and street ministry, not starting another big name job 3 weeks later.
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@ Kemi:
Hope their salaries and other income streams are published to the congregation, too.
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@ Lydia:
Nope, but if you saw their modest apartments/houses and cars you wouldn’t need to.
I love this site, but there is a strong tendency to paint all large churches with same brush. Isn’t it possible that some are okay? I was part of two small and quite bad churches before I landed happily in my large church.
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Kemi wrote:
True. Quality of character and not quantity of people.
The one mentioned on a recent post that kicked out a senior citizen, and she took it to her State Supreme Court, was small – maybe 100 members?
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Kemi wrote:
Mega-Churches Pastors certainly want you to think they’re hard-working martyrs, in my experience. However, based on what I’ve seen, even if Mega-Church higher-ups are working hard it’s seldom on projects that benefit the average pew-sitter.
Much of their time is spent marketing the Church, broadly, or working on other streams of revenue such as publishing books and giving conferences.
And often the only pew-sitters who get any real face-time are the wealthy ones who tithe a lot.
I can’t imagine why anyone would want to attend and give money to a Church in which the lead Pastor doesn’t even know someone’s name unless he/she can tithe a bundle.
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JYJames wrote:
My theory about Mega-Churches is that they're fundamentally flawed for many reasons. One is that they have to turn into for-profit businesses because it costs so much to maintain huge buildings and large support staffs. What true benefit, to the average person, is there to attending an impersonal mega-Church? That's a 100% sincere question. (ed.)
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The question mark at the end of the last sentence should be a period. Sorry about that. 😉
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I’m honestly skeptical of 95% of churches of any size being good churches.
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ishy wrote:
I think that came out backwards, but I’m exhausted and my brain really cannot parse anymore, so I’ll just go to bed. 😉
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This is so bizarre. Last night I woke up at 2 a.m. and couldn’t go back to sleep and I happened to read a book by Pete Wilson that I had purchased some time ago. Never heard of him before.
I personally wouldn’t be interested in attending a mega church again, but I agree that it’s not necessarily the size that makes a church bad or unhealthy. My church is about 500 in size and I think the three pastors work a lot.
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@ Kemi:
It’s just my opinion but based on what it takes to build, and continue to maintain a mega has serious systemic implications. It’s a big topic.
Small churches can be horribly corrupted. Its just easier to hide in a mega.
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ishy wrote:
I went to a smaller church, from a mega church that I had been invited to by a friend.
I thought the small church would be better. The small church was more toxic and more abusive than the mega church.
As Gram3 has wisely noted in older posts here that many times when we leave one bad church looking for a healthier church, we choose a church that seems to be the opposite of the first church and miss the red flags in the second church.
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Velour wrote:
Gram is very wise. I am thinking a middle of the road church is a good idea.
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ishy wrote:
Me too.
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“This situation” refers to a situation. What is the situation?
Ahh ha ha… right… What could be wrong with that?
Whatever it is, this is a good way to get lots of sympathy (not just for Wilson but by extension all pastors) at the same time.
I’m so thankful for this site. There ought to be so much more coverage of all of these church happenings. The Christian media seems like their articles are paid advertising most of the time.
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ishy wrote:
Afraid that is where I’m at these days, too.
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Okay folks, here we go: I love this blog and will stay a part of this blog. I think Dee and Deb do some great work, and I hope they keep on speaking out for the abused in the church. In this case, though, I think this article is making some great assumptions and is a bit unreasonable.
I go to Cross Point.
Pete Wilson is the best minister I’ve heard. No, he’s not the best minister ever , but he’s just the best that I’ve heard that fit’s my taste. He always says something I’ve never considered and can go out and apply immediately. For quite some time, he’s mentioned little things, like it was only God’s grace that got him out of bed and into the shower and God’s grace that helped him take step after step towards work. He noted that his time preaching was a very small fraction of what he did at the church. When it comes to what I call Apostles’ Creed issues, Pete is always on the money. I’ve never heard anything remotely like a false teaching. And no, he’s not into John Piper, and there are no neo-cal books in the book area. I know; I checked.
In three years, Cross Point has gone from an 800 seat church to space for over 1600, and we’re already overflowing. The main activities of the church are outreach: serving Saturday’s spent cleaning up inner-city neighborhoods, the Dream Center with it’s free or low cost dental clinic and food bank, the center for at-risk youth, the center for children waiting to be processed through the foster care system, etc. That’s it, except for the orphanage in India and a ministry in Haiti. I think there’s more overseas, but I don’t remember what it is. Oh, Pete donated all (or most?) of the profits from one of his books to the India ministry.
As for membership covenants, I asked my small group about the church’s membership requirements/contract. I’m not a member simply because I’ve not gotten around to joining, but I educated my small group about restrictive covenants thanks to what I’ve learned on this blog. My small group was shocked and said that no, the membership paperwork at Cross Point was very standard and just like what you’d find at most churches – nothing controlling about it.
Coming from a denominational church (Methodist), I could see how there is a danger of a church revolving around one person, and frankly, I do think the church in a way did revolve around Pete because of his personality and great preaching. I’ve watched online the last couple of weeks, so I don’t know if attendance has fallen off. Now, I’m not stupid; there very well could be more going on, but I just doubt it. If something comes out, well, I’d be shocked and disappointed, but I’d accept it. But until something does come out, I think we need to not assume. This really could be as it seems. Now, that said, I have noticed at least three other staff members have left recently (including the two women with “Pastor” in their titles). Maybe it’s a coincidence; I don’t know.
I have noticed that Pete has not mentioned Brandi recently in his sermons or on his blog. Maybe they’re having problems. That doesn’t mean that there’s been a moral failure. I can tell you where she has been recently. Both have been at their son’s ball games and sitting together. I know this because a woman in my small group sits in front of them.
Pastor burnout is very real and unfortunately is common in the field, so something needs to be done. I just don’t know what that is. As for Pete going to the A Group, which is a consulting firm that helps churches in many areas, I have no problem with it. Advising churches is totally different from running a church and dealing with it’s day-to-day issues. Having had burnout myself, I know it’s possible to be sick to death of one thing and yet be enthused about something else.
Like I said, I love this blog, but I’ve noticed that I’ve read so much about bad churches, that I’ve been becoming cynical about the church in general. I’ve had to remind myself that there are good churches out there. They’re not all abusive or have unethical things going on. So, I’m going to give Cross Point and Pete the benefit of the doubt until something concrete comes out that makes me think otherwise. Okay, I’ve talked enough.
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ishy wrote:
Dito!
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Oh, you mentioned that Cross Point is a member of ARC. This is the first I’ve heard about it, so I’ll definitely keep my eye on it.
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@ Patriciamc:
Thanks for sharing your experience there and your insights.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I can understand why you’re personally offended by the article if you like Pete Wilson and Cross Point Church.
However, your comment doesn’t seem to explain what you thought was unreasonable or illogical (e.g.making some great assumptions) about the points Dee made.
To me and many others, likely, it does seem strange to leave one job because you’re tired and then accept an equally stressful,if very different, one three weeks later.
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Why the ESV’s “contrary to” in Gen 3:16 Matters
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/10/05/why-the-esvs-contrary-to-in-gen-316-matters/
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It’s simple. The guy got a better paying job & yet still wants to keep the church door open in case it doesn’t pan out. Religion is an awesome business.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Yeah, that’s why I pointed out that what he moved to was not another church and he wasn’t doing pastoral counseling, but is more in the business of selling various services to other churches and related ministries/publishing companies/etc. Still not something I would have done, but I also understand that if you’re in a certain profession, you tend to gravitate towards that profession.
I understand how you feel Patricia, because my “evil too big to fail” bank employer has been in the news *a lot* over the last three weeks. It’s been really uncomfortable to see people bash my employer on a day-in, day-out basis (people I’ve known for decades and they know I work for this bank) and I’ve occasionally had to point out that thousands upon thousands of us don’t work on the bank side and we didn’t have a clue as to what was going on.
At my job, I investigate computing incidents and I know I’ve thought more than once about whether what happened with bogus accounts being opened could have been caught by my team and the answer is, “unless it actually started causing problems technically with applications, servers, network connectivity, etc., it would never have come to our attention.” And there’s no evidence that the bogus accounts caused technical problems. It was a business process, but I still feel uneasy, as if I should have known.
I still think I do good work with investigating system failures, making recommendations for how to fix them to keep them from happening again, and then following through to the end. But the last few weeks have been…ugh. I can’t even begin to express my feelings. It’s really tough to have your employer made out as a bad guy when it’s provided you a good job and a paycheck for nearly two decades.
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@ Patriciamc:
Thanks for the info. Since I live just North of the TN state line, I watch mostly Nashville TV stations. I have heard of Cross Pointe, heard it mentioned on TV ads and a brief mention of Dream Center on the news. Aside from that, I know nothing about it.
Even if there is nothing other than burnout that led to Wilson’s departure, I do believe he may have had this new job lined up before he resigned. 3 weeks is a fast turn around! Maybe he just scheduled a little 3 week vacay?
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@ Patriciamc:
Thanks for your perspective. Lots of food for thought.
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Jack wrote:
He’s certainly created that impression whether he meant to or not. What’s sad, to me, is that it does sound like Cross Point was taking off and doing some great work with the community.
But now that the charismatic Pastor has abruptly left, those things will likely go down the toilet pretty fast.
It seems as though Pete Wilson should have considered limiting his hours with his present job, if he was tired, until the Church could find someone to replace him.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Yes, he’s said that the discussion with the A Group has been going on for a few weeks,
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The statistics on pastors are awful. Only 1 in 10 will retire as a pastor. 9 out of 10 will get out. Very few have close friends, most think their family has suffered because of their job… While there are certainly some that take advantage of the situation, I think there are many more that take it so seriously that it consumes them.
Personally, I still think that we have created this cultural job description of “pastor,” which has become somewhat toxic and damaging.
Like my trainer at the gym says, if it hurts that bad, you aren’t doing it right.
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mirele wrote:
My goodness! I feel for you. The news about that bank has been very disturbing. As for Cross Point and Pete, yeah, there could be more, but there also might not be.
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GSD wrote:
You’d think this would be a clue that the Church is doing church wrong.
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Bridget wrote:
Maybe the only shepherd (pastor) is supposed to be the Good Shepherd.
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I’m thinking that the Pastor/CEO of a 501c3 job has got to be exhausting. Especially if you aren’t gifted for part of your job. Like sitting in meetings, or managing people, or counseling, or even preparing sermons and speaking. We really don’t know what the demands were on Wilson, but it sounds as if a big part of his “job” was wearing him out. Hopefully his new job is something that matches his gifting better, and his family can recuperate. And the church can find a replacement.
Maybe its the pressure of having a whole church built on your personality, especially when the church gets big. It reminds me of the image of Atlas carrying around the globe. We build entire church organizations on the shoulders of one guy, and then wonder why they feel pressure, and why the enemy targets them.
I would agree with Patriciamc in hoping that Pete has simply decided that his family and his sanity are more important than his ministry, and that he’s found a different way to serve the church and make a living.
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mirele wrote:
It’s quite possible!
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GSD wrote:
I’m thinking that being the pastor/CEO of a 501(c)(3) must be exhausting because the position (as it is invariably construed in the modern mega church) is so utterly anathema to anything laid out in the New Testament, so much the product of pure fantasy and so little the product of the text of the New Testament, so attractive to full blooded sociopaths and NPDs, that to occupy such a position must be exhausting.
But it is not so much exhausting for the pastor himself, but rather exhausting for those poor souls subjecting their spiritual well-being to anyone so biblically ignorant to think that such a position even legitimately exists within the Church, much less that they have some divine right to occupy it. Only a malignant narcissist or blind guide would seek such a position.
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GSD wrote:
Academic research out of Canada regarding the mental health of pastors generally (not even necessarily of megas) indicates that perhaps as many as 90% have some form of narcissism and that nearly half of all pastors under 40 are full-blown NPDs. The general population is somewhere in the range of 3% or so. Think about that for a moment: a person with NPD does not have a conscience; they care not one whit about another, would presumably just as soon murder you as shake your hand, provided the murder would benefit them. Some would refer to them as just plain evil.
One can only wonder what the numbers would be like not in low-key Canada among the probably low-key Presbyterians who were the subjects of the study, but among U.S. megachurch leaders–the percentage of NPDs is quite possibly breathtaking there.
I agree with your sentiment regarding the title of “pastor” and the toxic environment it creates, but I tend to think there are quite a few who take advantage of the situation (perhaps an overwhelming majority do so because they are wired simply not to care about anything but their own advantage), while only some genuinely take it seriously.
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Kemi wrote:
What is the name and location of your large Church, Kemi?
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mirele wrote:
Yes. That metaphor is taken way too far.
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@ Patriciamc:
Just a caution. The pew sitters in a large church are usually the last to know what is really going on. Most pew sitters only know the pastor on the go socially or from stage.
I don’t consider the A Group on the up and up, spiritually. If churches have the kind of tithe money to pay them it boggles my mind they would use it for slick church growth marketing instead of helping actual people. I wonder if the pew sitters knew they paid A Group to grow the church?
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
If you have to go to a campus and watch the preacher on tv I think you’re too big. I have seen mega described at 2000 and above and I’m not sure id say that is too big…just seems like a large church. So I don’t know.
I don’t like churches that aren’t open about what they pay, so that would be a red flag for me at kemis church.
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@ Patriciamc:
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I have no issue with preachers leaving due to burnout so I thought all the press coverage was weird anyway. It is easy to be cynical but sometimes it seems like it’s hard to be cynical enough to keep up with reality.
I will say, the preacher I thought was the best id heard for a long time was mark dever.
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@ Law Prof:
Church is actually one of the easiest ways to obtain a stage and followers for the narcissists supply needs. They are able to use OPM to create their own cult of personality. Once it grows they are insulated from the pew sitters except basic social functions where they are “on”. They are usually protected by staff and elders they groomed. The pew sitters provide instant trust because of the title of pastor. They honestly believe the persona on stage is who he claims he is but few actually know him, personally. Even fewer have been to their home. They have no clue who they really are.
The term “role” fits here perfectly.
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@ Lea:
I agree with everything you’ve said. It’s hard to define a Mega-Church. To me, a Church with at least 3000 people is too big because that’s often the point at which it has to have two services because it literally can’t fit everyone into one service.
That or it invests in a giant expensive new building that’s mortgage is a 30-year sack of bricks, which brings all its members down and is very distressing if membership goes down for some reason.
This is all just my opinion. They’re are certainly good Pastors and good people in Mega-Churches and small Churches can have lots of problems as well.
As Lydia suggested above (in my interpretation), problems just seem to be amplified and harder to track in very large Churches.
I’d also note that I’m aware we can’t do everything the way it was done 2000 years ago, but an impersonal mega-Church is the anti-thesis of the very personal home-Church model found in the New Testament. I think that’s something to think about.
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Lydia wrote:
Everyone remember the Koine Greek for “actor playing a role”?
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Lea wrote:
I keep thinking of Big Brother’s face on the Telescreens.
“SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE!”
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
Is it equally stressful? Do you know this for a fact?
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
Being part of a Great Mass Movement?
“My Church is Bigger than Yours”?
Actually seeing the CELEBRITY’s face and hearing the CELEBRITY’s voice?
Being around the Rich and Famous?
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
To me, that’s one of the dangers of a non-denominational church: what happens when the person it revolves around leaves. With a denomination, you have more of a “brand,” a culture, and an external organization that can hold things together. So, we’ll just see.
The elders said that they asked Pete to stay and offered him all the time off that he wanted, but he said no.
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On the subject of ARC, former Mosaic pastor Dustin Boles, who’s been reported to police for stalking a victim, stated that he was offered a restoration process with ARC:
“My opening series will be called “Epic Fail”. Ha. I have been offered the opportunity to go through a “restoration” process with ARC and Oasis church beginning in January…”
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Lydia wrote:
Oh, I understand, but I’m not going to pass judgement until I hear something concrete. Let’s not convict the guy without a trial. As for the A Group, I guess that’s just a matter of opinion. They’re work doesn’t bother me.
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@ Patriciamc:
Follow the money.
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@ Patriciamc:
Geesh, my spelling and punctuation have gone down. That’s “Their work” not “they’re work.” I’ve also said “it’s” a few times instead of “its.” It’s the work of Satan!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It’s possible I mention that gateway screen thing too often, but it’s really weird. Might as well sit at home and watch tv!
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Patriciamc wrote:
I suspect it’s less stressful and pays more.
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The footer at the bottom of the Crosspoint Church web page:
“Powered by The A Group”
http://www.crosspoint.tv/nashville/
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Patriciamc wrote:
maybe he became ashamed of being ‘the person it revolves around’ ?
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Hi All:
Just a note in defense of Dee’s and Deb’s work.
I haven’t posted on TWW regularly in many years so don’t wish to pass judgment on anyone in particular.
However, I do want to stand up for Dee and Deb regarding the criticism that all they focus on is the negative things that happen in Churches and that’s wrong/annoying/un-Christian etc.
In my 5+ years of advocating against child sexual abuse in Churches, I’ve often heard that I’m just a negative ninny, too, and I used be to hurt by that perspective.
Now it just irritates me, and I’m not surprised that when I ask a critic what they’ve done to advocate against child sexual abuse in Churches, I get no answer. So folks are willing to let me do the dirty work of protecting their children and then turn around and knock me for being understandably cynical at times.
That’s not a very mature or good Christian thing to do, in my view. Most people would be a lot more negative than I am if they’d seen what I’ve seen go on in so called “Godly Churches” over the past few years.
Yes, I am aware that many, if not most, Churches do wonderful things and don’t harbor pedophiles for decades as does Covenant Life Church, the Mega-Church from h–l, that is a 30-minute drive from my home.
I’d also love to spend more time at Churches I love going to picnics, listening to lectures from world-class Christian academics (there are lots of those in the Washington D.C. area), and focusing on more positive things generally.
But I can’t do as much of that as I like because very few Christians want to do or are able to do the hard and dirty work of advocating against child sexual abuse in many Protestant, and especially independent Evangelical (sorry but it’s true) Churches.
So you can accuse people trying to monitor difficult or abusive Church situations of being part of the problem. Just know that that behavior seldom comes across as being mature to broader society and probably does not reflect well on Christianity.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
Absolutely. I think visiting Gateway skewed my view of what a ‘mega church’ really is, because that place is insane. Two services seems normal, but then I live in the bible belt. Maybe I’m just used to large churches?
It’s like Big city/Small town. Both have problems, but the problems are different.
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Lydia wrote:
They couldn’t, don’t ya know. They had conferences to attend and speak at, books to write, and backs to slap on the church’s dime. They simply are killing themselves for God.
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Anonymous wrote:
Yep-the only problem is, the reason usually comes out at some point.
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Bridget wrote:
They are simply trying to *protect* the people in the pew….or is it the dollars in the pockets of the people in the pew?
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@ Christiane:
That is what Francis Chan said.
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Lea wrote:
I like this and will remember it when I read “I’m leaving because I am burnt out” announcements.
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Lea wrote:
It’s a lot of traveling. FBCJaxwatchdog had several posts about the hip cool Marillo and his A Group years back. It is a big money maker.
Do the pew sitters know how their money is spent? Maybe they think it is a good thing?
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@ Patriciamc:
You will never have the “facts” unless some insider goes public. That is how it works. And it works.
The fact he thinks A Group is of Christ says it all to me. It took me a while to get there. I was one of their kind, once. Jesus Christ doesn’t need slick Madison Ave style marketing and promotion. Quite the opposite.
What you win them with…you win them to.
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Patriciamc wrote:
With respect, I think you’re being unreasonable and illogical, Patriciamc. Dee did not accuse Pete Wilson of a committing a crime that would result in any kind of trial, as you’ve implied.
Furthermore, you’re welcome to let your personal experience with this charismatic Pastor color your judgment, but you probably should not be expecting everyone else to do the same. I’m actually betting that a lot of people at Cross Point are unhappy that their Pastor is abandoning them, without notice, and don’t buy his, “but I’m too exhausted to serve you on any level” explanation,” either. I think that’s a load of baloney, too, given the facts at hand.
To me, it’s obvious that the guy is leaving a Church he’s made dependent on him (and yes, he probably did want to ensure that he’d be hard to replace) for a more prestigious and likely higher-paying job and simply isn’t being upfront about his true priorities because it would be embarrassing for him to do so. There is evidence to that effect, my dear. 😉
Again, I’m happy that you like your Church and its soon-to-be-gone charismatic Pastor. There’s nothing wrong with that.
But given the evidence in the article, please expect others to think you’re being a little naive by basing your whole perspective about Pete Wilson’s departure on how much you like him because he gives inspirational sermons.
Lastly, I’m surprised that you don’t mind your Church spending a lot of money, that could be going toward helping people in need, on an expensive marketing consulting firm’s fees. That would definitely bother me to the point that I would at least investigate what that marketing campaign was designed to do.
Thanks for your perspective. I know it isn’t easy to go against the grain in the comments section of any blog.
😉
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@ Janna L. Chan:
Megas are also forced into a “too big to fail” mentality which brings many problems with tactics and strategies to keep the pews full and on the church growth track (It’s a revolving door)
When one considers just the electric bill alone can be 30,000 a month for a building or buildings that are only full on weekends….
Stewardship is so unfashionable when you can have big and cool.
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Lydia wrote:
Hmm. Traveling can be stressful. But you also rack up a bazillion hotel/airline points.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I’m not sure what you mean by “fact.” I can’t measure the guy’s blood pressure at either job, if that’s what you mean but I don’t think that it is. 😉
Both jobs, in theory, involve a lot of responsibility and a lot of hours. Two things that an exhausted person could reasonably be expected to have trouble handling.
What makes you think that Pete Wilson’s new job will be less stressful than his present one? It’s definitely not a 9-5 situation, as Dee pointed out?
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Patriciamc wrote:
Then obviously Pete Wilson didn’t leave because he was tired and is flatly lying by saying otherwise. I hope we can agree that taking time off would be less stressful than starting a new job of any kind.
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Celebrity gospel 101: 1) hey look at us! Buy the books, come to the conferences, watch online, read our posts… 2) leader suddenly leaves because he’s tired. That’s all folks! Nothing to see here. Look away.
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I fully expect that TWW will post a future blog piece on the Pete Wilson saga and conclude with Paul Harvey’s famous line “”And now you know the rest of the story.” The end of the story could be as simple as a burned out preacher finding new energy in a new job … or a move from burnout to pay-out in record time … or something more sinister or not. It’s hard to predict what this new breed of American pastor will do next! I keep thinking of 7,000 Church Point members grieving about the sad exit of their senior pastor as his empty tank wanders into the unknown and then within a month hearing he’s emerged from burnout full of gas and taking on a new job!
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Law Prof wrote:
Exactly! We created the job description, which isn’t in the Scriptures. And I’m probably biased. I know a few pastor-types who are good people, and very sharp. The best are the ones that have worn different hats in life, and haven’t always made their living being a professional Christian.
But we’ve seen the NPDs too. I can see how they would be attracted to a position where your main job is to stand above the “sheep” 2-3 times a week, and have them listen to you, silently and adoringly. And then have endless staff meetings where they talk as the staff listens, silently and adoringly. It’s like NPD crack.
But for a normal person, I could see how it would be exhausting. I’m really hoping that this is the case for Pete Wilson.
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Jeez, I’ve been off woth burnout this year & the only thing I could do was watch bad daytime TV & obsess about calvinism. I fell that what he’s suffering from is not actually burn out at all, maybe boredom?
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
a man cannot serve two masters ….. is possible he has chose Mammon finally and exclusively (?)
normally, a serious cleric who is worn out would seek a time of renewal, maybe a retreat or a time-out in a place of peace and prayer;
but moving almost directly into the world of optimizing money-making venture$ ????
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Beakerj wrote:
Maybe he wanted a change. I really don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I just think most normal transitions in church or work are up front and honest about why they are leaving. So and so retired. So and so got a better job. So and so is pursuing new opportunities. We recently had a minister leave and got a whole letter with detail why, where she was going, etc… There is nothing wrong with leaving a job or a church. It’s only when people get sneaky that I get suspicious.
I’m not saying that ‘burnout’ is sneaky, but I hope he was up front about the fact that he was leaving to take a different job (I won’t presume since I’m not there).
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Harley wrote:
Agree!!!
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ishy wrote:
🙂
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Former CLCer wrote:
I agree with you. But that is because they care about the people. The mega pastor is not really a pastor. He is a talking head. My guess if that pastors of smaller churches work harder because they are relational.
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@ siteseer:
Thank you.
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dee wrote:
If this is true, then is the ‘mega’ really a ‘Church’?
If not, what IS it?
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@ Patriciamc:
Thank you for your comment. I really appreciate your particular insight. That is what I love about blogging.
I am curious. Were you present when Dino Rizzo spoke? What were your impressions? Were you aware of his checkered background and the controversy that ensued over his rapid restoration to ministry?
I am well aware of the Dream Center. My daughter attend Church of the Highlands, kind of the mother ship of your group of churches. They had one there. They are wonderful.
Also, you know that Robert Morris’ church is part of the association. They have some interesting views on demons. I would love to get you take on this post I wrote.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/19/where-have-all-the-flowers-gone-demons-tongues-and-healings-at-chris-hodges-church-of-the-highlands-arc/
Since Chris is one of the ruling members of the ARC, I am curious to see how this affects the churches. I know that Pete Wilson was a star in that group of churches so your opinions are quite valuable to me.
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@ Patriciamc:
Could you do me a favor? Could you see if they have a prayer force manual?
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Let me correct one thing: Pete didn’t immediately go from his job at Cross Point and three weeks later start another – not physically at least. Pete took off several weeks this summer for vacation during which the church had guest speakers. Then, he returned one week and announced his resignation, then three weeks later started his new job. So, we can pass judgement and say he should have done this, he should have done that, but in the absence of evidence of illegal or immoral behavior, I’m not going to say what he should have done since I haven’t walked a mile in his sneakers.
As for the church associating with Dino Rizzo, I just don’t know. I wouldn’t want a church associating with someone like that, so I just don’t know what’s going on. No clue.
So, all I ask is that we not speculate until there is real evidence so this doesn’t turn into a witch-hunt since a man’s reputation is at stake. If this makes me unreasonable, then I’m guilty as charged. Flame away, folks.
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dee wrote:
Sure. I can ask individuals since this probably wouldn’t be on the website.
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dee wrote:
No, I wasn’t. I wouldn’t want us to associate with someone like him, so I just don’t know what is going on. I hope someone was just ignorant, even though speakers should be vetted.
I’ve never heard anything Robert Morris-like, and nothing at all about demons. For anyone who’s interested, Cross Point’s sermons are on the website, YouTube, and iTunes.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
Well, if someone who has actually been there and has some facts is “color your judgement,” then I’m guilty. We don’t want facts to get in the way of a juicy scandal.
Like I said, if concrete evidence comes out about Pete or the church, then fine. Until then, I’m not going to come to a conclusion.
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Pete Wilson is quoted as saying he is not the “President of The A Group; a Nashville-based nonprofit/church marketing agency”. I looked in vain for evidence that “The A Group” is a nonprofit. I searched using GuideStar, the ERI, and the IRS but they all came up empty.
Do you have information on their “nonprofit” status that gives an EIN for “The A Group” ?
Thanks – Dave
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My typing mistake – it should say Pete Wilson is quoted as saying he is NOW the President …
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dee wrote:
Major eye-rolls. These people are just plain strange. We’ve never done anything remotely like that at Cross Point. I’m afraid we’re very “white bread” average, ordinary Christianity.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Thanks for the info.
Patriciamc wrote:
That is completely reasonable. No flaming!
The thing I thought was weirdest about this whole thing is that there was so much press coverage.
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Lea wrote:
Me too. I guess it’s because he’s well-known, at least in our community.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I would say his reputation is at stake in a profitable way going with the A Group. Evidently that part of the story is “fact”. Many will admire and praise him for it. It is the new normal in Christendom.
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Lea wrote:
That is what the A Group does. They are brand creators and managers.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I can assure you that they are not ignorant. They know exactly what is going on.
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@ Patriciamc:
It used to be on COH website until I did my post.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I am pleased with your comments. Thank you for taking a risk and posting them.
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Patriciamc wrote:
But, they are associated with the ARC. I found this quite curious since Pete Wilson attended SBTS. Their theology and the ARC’s theology is quite different.
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“…I’ve accepted a position as the President of The A Group; a Nashville-based nonprofit/church marketing agency, geared towards partnering with churches, nonprofits, ministries and faith based organizations to increase their impact.”
Because Jesus preached volumes about the importance of church marketing and public relations teams.
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Lydia wrote:
Ah. Maybe that explains it. But it did the opposite for me because I’m not used to so much press coverage of what I would consider to be a non-event. It automatically makes me think of scandal! Because otherwise who cares if you don’t go to crosspoint?
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dee wrote:
Looking at your old post, New Life in Arkansas is also associated. I would consider them very normal, I’m pretty sure I’ve been a few times over the years and have friends that go there.
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@ Law Prof:
“the pastor/CEO of a 501(c)(3) ….. so attractive to full blooded sociopaths and NPDs, that to occupy such a position must be exhausting.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
considering the power potential (assumed power, and/or power that is granted purposely or subconsciously), it’s like the driver’s seat to ultimate control over people. magnetic to a personality disorder or control freaks, but a crazy load of burdens to a healthy individual.
Has the role of pastor always been like this? Am i being silly for thinking of Little House On The Prairie and Reverend Alden and the simplicity and selflessness?
i have a feeling this pastor role/occupation/career is a recent invention. It would be interesting to trace the history of it all. Eye-opening, i would imagine.
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PatriciaMC:
So glad to know that you go to Cross Pointe. My pastor has known Pete since he was a high school student at Hillwood.
I have several friends who go to Cross Pointe, and they really enjoy it.
I don’t know anything about the way the church operates, but I was curious to ask about the structure.
Are there elders, a board of directors? Does the congregation vote?
Would detailed information about the church budget be seen by the congregation, for example, how much the church paid to the A Group?
I am with you for not making assumptions at this point. However, the absence of details is concerning. I will hope with you that there is not a tragedy here, though my experience with churches causes me to be concerned that may not be the case.
Take care.
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@ Janna L. Chan:
Excellent comment, Janna, about your advocating for the protection of children from predators in our churches. I do the dirty work too out here in California (Silicon Valley) on the same subject and I get slammed too.
Yet every time I meet an adult child or a parent of a child who was sexually abused at a church, I am thanked by them for my stand.
So we’re doing the right thing.
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I’m not sure if people took offensive to one of my posts above. I was not trying to broad-brush all pastors.
I do have a distrust of certain types of pastors, the ones who head the mega-churches, the Mark Driscoll types, who bully their underlings in addition to living large off their church members’s donations.
I am also suspicious of the Steve Furtick types, who live in multi-million dollar mansions off the tithes of their middle-class church members.
A lot of the Driscoll and Furtick types (maybe not them in particular but ones like them) will complain about how difficult pastoring is, but all I ever see them do is attend conferences where they get paid big fees, and get people to ghost write books for them.
Some of these guys who work as preacher refuse to visit sick people in hospitals, and so on.
They get all sorts of perks and money that most folks who work harder than they do in regular 9 to 5 jobs don’t get. I’m having a difficult time seeing how it is these specific types of preachers have a grueling profession.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
That is my impression of a lot of mega churches, too.
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M. Joy wrote:
It’s called “selling Jesus” and “merchandising the gospel”. Church has become a business in many places, so business methods are necessary to promote it.
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Lydia wrote:
Yep. That fits in with the “It’s Clergy Sex Abuse Not Adultery” thread perfectly. LOL.
For whatever reasons, a lot of people do tend to invest preachers with trust and respect.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Is the word “Hypocrite” -?
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Lea wrote:
That’s what I was thinking.
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@ Janna L. Chan:
Thank you for your advocacy on behalf of people who have been hurt by churches.
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Daisy wrote:
That’s what my father used to call “being too big for your britches.” I recall Ed Stetzer (of LifeWay fame) saying once about his role as a busy pastor “I can’t do funerals, visits, phone calls, or meetings.” It seems that this new breed of American pastor delegates the responsibilities of pastor, whether they have a congregation of 20 or 2,000.
As a side-note, Stetzer recently left LifeWay to become executive director of the Billy Graham School of Evangelism at Wheaton College. I sure hope he counsels young pastor-wannabes that they should do funerals, visit sick folks, make phone calls to check on their flock, and have meetings to counsel the hurting.
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@ Lydia:
I wonder why the hip and trendy megas, to counter act that issue, do a marketing scheme where they convince the people to come to church more than just on Sundays?
Maybe they could come up with some kind of campaign to convince folks they should come at least twice a week?
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Daisy wrote:
Whew! You just can’t afford to do than anymore! When you are considering a new church, pray your guts out for discernment before you join yourself to it. “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1).
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M. Joy wrote:
You know darn well he did.
He handed out a lot of key chains, mug cozies, and ball point pens with his Logo and web site address on them to the crowds who came to hear him preach 🙂
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@ Lea:
“but I hope he was up front about the fact that he was leaving to take a different job (I won’t presume since I’m not there).”
++++++++++++++
perhaps cognitive dissonance strikes again — the tension between how a pastor is supposed to be and the reality of the human being that wears the hat.
pastor: a humble servant not concerned with power and wealth.
reality: he quit this job for a new job that appears to be pro power and wealth.
Tension between the two is stress-inducing. and it implies that he was tired of being a humble servant and wanted power and wealth instead — makes him look bad. so it was convenient to fabricate a story to “control the narrative”.
where power and wealth are concerned, i don’t think these things are wrong — i think we all are seeking them to some degree as a matter of survival. so we can survive fit, be responsible, stay in good health, provide for our families. it’s why we work towards job promotions, pay raises, expanding our business, investing our money, etc.
the role/job of pastor has become such a complex and contradictory thing. a philosophical quagmire if you ask me. it prompts the need for PR, story fabrication, narrative controlling in order to cover all this up.
eh…where am i going here…. all in all it would have much better to be completely honest. he wasn’t. he created an impression that wasn’t altogether true.
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Max wrote:
sounds like this new breed of ‘head pastor’ is basically a ‘contractor’: he takes the money in himself, and pays his workers that he sends out
he’s running a business …. but then, of course, he is the main entertainer-in-charge up on a stage once a week or so
strange evolution of a role that two thousand years ago meant almost certain martyrdom after much persecution . . . . to go from that fast forward to our time and big salaries, pompadour haircuts, thousand-dollar suits, mc mansions in gated communities ….
too great a leap in my mind ….. something has got lost in the interim
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Lydia wrote:
That’s why the mega pastors are determined to get their share first from the “giving units.” Speaking of Robert Morris, he has advised his flock to not pay their rent or personal electric bill until they FIRST pay the church … or 100% of their money will be cursed! That sort of preaching would scare the change out of anyone’s pocket!
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elastigirl wrote:
I’m not ok…which is why I’m taking a job in consulting. I mean, just say you’re taking a job in consulting! IDK.
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Max wrote:
Your comments remind me of this:
Why Most Pastors Aren’t Answering Your Phone Calls
http://www.christianitytoday.com/karl-vaters/2016/august/why-most-pastors-arent-answering-your-phone-calls.html?paging=off
My take away: their reasons as per that article:
Mainly because they find you annoying, long winded, and they’re rather be sipping their Star Bucks coffee.
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Christiane wrote:
Well, I keep saying that these entertainers would not have a stage to strut on if it wasn’t for an audience gullible enough to keep them there!
Avoiding pastoral duties is not limited to mega-church. There is an SBC-YRR church planter in my area that has a relatively small church who delegates hospital visits, funerals, etc. to his young “elders.” But, he still finds time to frequent the local coffee shops and tweet his life away.
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@ elastigirl:
oh yeah, here’s where i was going: what’s bothering me is subterfuge. not only story fabrication but the whole premise of the A Group. Spin, smoke and mirrors to sway people to come to one’s church and build the careers of its professional christians.
i mean…. yuck!
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@ Velour:
I’m also thanked a lot. My comment pertained to being critized for being negative on blogs.
Thanks!
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There are a number of possible reasons for this pastor leaving his church. It certainly could be burnout, but there could be other reasons. It could be that their marriage hit a rough patch with no adultery involved and he didn’t feel right continuing as pastor. The leaders of a group I was involved with went through a difficult season where they just weren’t getting along and stepped down -sharing the real reason with only those of us in their small group. Another possibility might involve their children. One of their children could be going through something and they did not feel that it would be fair to him/her to share that publicly. There are just lots of different possibilities. When their is concrete evidence that he did something wrong, I’m all for nailing him to the wall. Until then, I’m sorry but this all just seems a little unfair to me.
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@ Daisy:
Thanks, it’s an honor.
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Sorry should have been there not their. Is there a way to edit your comments? I seriously need to proof read!
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@ Patriciamc:
I admire your courage in posting your comments, too. I know that doing so isn’t easy when you feel that people are unfairly attacking someone you care about.
I would just note that my comments have not pertained to any possible juicy scandals respecting anyone’s marriage or family life. Rather, I’m simply concerned that the subject of the article has treated his parishioners poorly and also gone over to the dark side of the Christian Industrial Complex.
At this point, I’ll let those most affected by that apparent controversy worry about it.
Thanks!
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mirele wrote:
Deanna!! Do you want to open up a few checking accounts for me without my knowledge I’ll help you reach your sales goals at Wells Fargo! 😛
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This is an overview of the only Acts 29 church in the Eastern District of the Evangelical Free Church of America. It works closely with Redeemer Arlington by Eric Simmons and Jason Conner’s Portico Arlington.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/10/07/acts-29-bill-riedels-redemption-hill-in-washington-d-c-how-healthy-is-it/
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Daisy wrote:
Yes, that needs to be added as point (10) in the article.
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Daisy wrote:
This is similar to this one: 15 Reasons Why Your Pastor Should Not Visit Much:
http://thomrainer.com/2016/08/fifteen-reasons-pastor-not-visit-much/#comment-526142
Whilst trying to counter “burn-out” in pastors, the title says it all. Many of these mega-church pastors want to be CEOs, staying in their luxury office preparing sermons and reading theology books. This is why I won’t give any time or attention to those churches.
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Full article: http://thomrainer.com/2016/08/fifteen-reasons-pastor-not-visit-much/
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elastigirl wrote:
I think this says it all.
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dee wrote:
I’m going to have to plead ignorance here. All I know of Cross Point’s theology is what is on the website and what is noted in the sermons.
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@ Lea:
In the accounts you saw, was A Group ever mentioned? :o)
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Anonymous wrote:
There are elders. A year or so ago, they asked for input on people to consider for elders (they’ve had at least one female elder in the past). Beyond that, I don’t know due to my lack of interest at the time. The budget has been posted before. I didn’t look because I wasn’t interested. I’m sure some digging on the Internet would show some things.
CP has been open about using the A Group. Has the A Group been accused of wrong-doing? That’s the part I’m missing.
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elastigirl wrote:
Did he? I just don’t get the dissonence between quitting a job that was draining and taking another job. I also don’t see anything wrong with it being higher paying. I do see a lot of assumptions going on from people who are very removed from the situation.
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elastigirl wrote:
He was a circuit riding pastor visiting tiny churches. :o)
My kid, who loved those books, mentioned him a few weeks ago with nostalgia. She recently participated in Miss Beadle’s Facebook event. Miss Beadle is now 70!
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Lea wrote:
Both can’t be true?
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BJ wrote:
That’s exactly my thought since he had not mentioned her for some time. It’s none of my business, but it did occur to me.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I think for me I apply these things to people in regular jobs. If my coworker leaves, they generally say ‘I am retiring’ or ‘I am going to work at X’. My limited experience with pastors leaving (not under a cloud of suspicion, although when that has happened I generally knew the gossip so It was more of an open secret), is that they have done the same. I am retiring. I am going to preach at X church. I am moving. Etc. It always seems odd if people don’t say where they are going.
Of course, he doesn’t owe me an explanation and I don’t particularly care. But if he knew where he was going, it would seem natural to say running a giant church has burned me out, so I’m going to do this consulting job. there could be other factors involved in his not sharing that, though, maybe it wasn’t finalized.
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@ Dave:
Very good question. Is it a para church organization with non profit status?
It hardly matters these days from a “lifestyle of the officers”, POV. You can jet all over the world for a meeting tax free.
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Lydia wrote:
This is a very good statement.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Absolutely, both can be true. I’m just saying it would be natural in that case to say both things. That’s all.
And as I mentioned above, there could be other factors involved (job not being finalized, unspecified family stuff that I hate to speculate on since I know nothing about these people).
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http://www.agroup.com/about/people
Interesting site. I could not find their org status.
There are also “Ask Pete” sections.
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Lea wrote:
It’s possible he didn’t have the job right when he quit. Anyway, I’m not going to create a crisis out of a non-crisis situation. I do think there is a problem with people automatically assuming there’s a scandal here (in this day and age, I can’t blame them), but I also think there are some who actually want this to be a scandal. Yes, want.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I think that depends on ones view of what they do and why churches pay for it. It is certainly the new normal in Christendom.
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I just found the following information about the “A Group” on the Tennessee State business website, as the organization’s address is in Tennessee.
Based on the info below, the A Group appears to be a for-profit entity because it issues shares and a non-profit cannot do that.
As an aside, I don’t think the A Group’s reputation is necessarily bad. The controversy probably lies in a Mega-Church’s decision to spend tens of thousands of a dollars or more (I don’t know the exact amount but consulting firms are always expensive) on a marketing campaign instead of using that money to help members of the Church or members of the community in other ways.
Name: THE A GROUP, INC.
Status: Active Initial Filing Date: 11/27/2001
Formed in: TENNESSEE Delayed Effective Date: 12/01/2001
Fiscal Year Close: December AR Due Date: 04/01/2017
Term of Duration: Perpetual Inactive Date:
Principal Office: 320 SEVEN SPRINGS WAY STE 100
BRENTWOOD, TN 37027-4538 USA
Mailing Address: 320 SEVEN SPRINGS WAY STE 100
BRENTWOOD, TN 37027-4538 USA
AR Exempt: No Obligated Member Entity: No
Shares of Stock: 1,000
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Lydia wrote:
And He never will! If you lift Him up, He will draw men unto Himself. A church enterprise needs business marketing and promotion to keep it afloat; the Church of the Living God does not. Mega is built on method; the Kingdom is built on message.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I can assure you I do not want it to be a scandal. All the publicity without a scandal threw me.
Patriciamc wrote:
Or it was in the works but they had details (salary, incidentals) to work out. Which is totally legit.
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia, that is a 25-cent quote which will be going on my refrigerator! Those words have so much application to New Calvinism methodology.
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ZechZav wrote:
They sure do keep coming up with new lists and rationales to explain to the average joe’s why they supposedly cannot do their jobs.
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elastigirl wrote:
A history of such would be fascinating and very helpful reading.
I can think back to certain charismatic pastors, like Jack Hyles, who built large empires in fairly recent history. That would be 1960’s I think? What about before that? I’m not knowledgeable but I think tracing the development of the mega mentality would be really eye-opening, as you say.
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@ Lydia:
I think it’s the norm in Churches that don’t tell members how they spend their money. Most pew-sitters would probably be appalled if they knew their tithe-money was being used to finance a slick $20,000-$50,000 marketing campaign designed solely to bring in new members, as opposed to helping existing members in any way.
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Christiane wrote:
Or even a bit of a MLM scheme.
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Dave wrote:
I read that as the A Group being a business that has non-profits and churches as clients. But I may be wrong about that. Nashville would be a logical place to locate a business like that.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Thanks for the info.
I have not heard that the A Group has been accused of wrongdoing. I have friends who were on staff with the founder of the A Group at Bellevue Community Church back in the day. When the guy left the church, he started the A group.
I have seen criticisms of the A Group from people who say it’s schmaltzy marketing, but I couldn’t tell you one thing they do or have done. Our church doesn’t market, so we never have had a reason to use them.
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@ siteseer:
Someone a long time ago said it really started with the Christian music industry from the 70’s. “Christian” became a market niche. From there the advent of megas, social media, plastic fish for your car, etc.
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http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2008/08/welcome-to-maurillio-as-reader-of-dawg.html?m=1
From 2008
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mirele wrote:
GFA sure likes you employer, or at least one specific co-worker on the non-bank side. I feels odd that an out of state, low level employee, handles donated assets over such a long period of time.
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Daisy wrote:
Just read that. Wow.
“2. Good leaders are proactive
Answering a phone call is reactive. It’s talking on your schedule, not mine.”
UNBELIEVABLE. He wants us to think he’s saying something sensible about initiative, but he’s just talking about POWER. This seems to me to describe the petty power behavior that is meat and drink to the manipulative personality.
“6. There are better options – especially for a first contact
Everyone has their preferred method of communication. I prefer texts, direct messages and emails to phone calls.”
You can only contact me on my terms. YOUR preferential form of communication is of no importance. Did you think God called me to pastor this church just to serve you?
“7. Some things can wait
One of the hard, early lessons I learned as a pastor was that not every emergency is an emergency. Even when it seems like disaster will strike if I don’t respond right away, many problems either diminish or disappear on their own.
My immediate response is seldom as necessary as you or I think it is.”
You are an attention whore and I don’t have time for your dram-queen bullshit.
I am absolutely gobsmacked by the narcissism of this writer. As the kids say, I can’t even…
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The title of this blog post and the tendency of spoiled mega church preachers (with their cushy jobs) to claim they are so exhausted, makes me think of the songs…
“16 Tons” by Tennessee Ernie Ford
and
“Working in A Coal Mine” by Devo
(which you can listen to here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA9FiL7mz_0
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Lea wrote:
I have no problem with that at all, it’s saying he’s exhausted & burned out rather than that he’s in need of a new challenge or whatever I have issues with.
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Daisy wrote:
Makes me think of something I heard this morning:
“Sixty years ago, eighteen-year-olds stormed the beaches of Normandy into near-certain death. Today eighteen-year-olds require special “safe areas” so their feelings won’t get hurt.”
Which sparked a memory cascade of 1970s-vintage Guns & Ammo and Soldier of Fortune editorial smackdowns sneering as “spoiled-rotten baby-fat Americans” (in contrast to the Rugged Communist Supermen) and praising Hypermsaculinity.
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dee wrote:
I have that more than once!
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Lydia wrote:
Shoot, my dull as dishwater, white bread Methodist church hired a consultant (I don’t remember why).
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Patriciamc wrote:
Its apparently very common. I don’t know why, but it is.
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@ Patriciamc:
It’s bizarre. Some do it for a campaign to pay off church debt. The marketing and branding is what galls me now.
The sad thing is churches are full of clever people who have a stake in the place. Why not harness that collective knowledge and skill? Because they don’t want the pew sitters involved. They are giving units who are to come to listen to the entertaining cool pastor and give money.
I can relate to your view. Had I never seen behind the stages in all those bizarre planning/promotion strategy meetings, I would have never known what was really going on before social media. The thing I could not fathom were the wonderful nice stage guys actually felt disdain for the pew sitters in private. It was like that in quite a few places. It was all faked.
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Patriciamc wrote:
This article doesn’t say anything about a scandal. As far as I can tell, you brought that aspect up. I don’t know that anyone even made a comment as such. The bulk of this article is quotes from people involved.
How would you know if people here wanted this to be a scandal? That is making assumptions.
The article presents some recent facts. That is all. It does leave unanswered questions, but that is because of a lack of information being given by the main players.
I actually hope there is no more to this story.
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@ Patriciamc:
elastigirl said: “all in all it would have much better to be completely honest. he wasn’t. he created an impression that wasn’t altogether true.”
Patriciamc said: “Did he? I just don’t get the dissonence between quitting a job that was draining and taking another job. I also don’t see anything wrong with it being higher paying. I do see a lot of assumptions going on from people who are very removed from the situation.”
++++++++++++++++
well, in reading his statement to the church, I believe this is the crux of it:
“I haven’t prioritized some other things that were equally as important. Leaders who lead on empty don’t lead well. For some time, I’ve been leading on empty….”
And now, more than ever before—I really need your prayers and I need your support. We’ve said that this is a church where it’s okay to not be okay, and I’m not okay. I’m tired. And I’m broken and I just need some rest.”
It paints a picture that is not exactly compatible with starting a high-powered new job as President of an organization 3 weeks later. It feels to me like an embroidery of the truth.
as far as the dissonance goes, i was getting at the complicated position as pastor is in, due to all the convoluted expectations of the role/job of “pastor” (expectations people put on that person, expectations a pastor can put on him/herself, & expectations a pastor can put on others in relation to him/herself).
there is nothing wrong with a pastor getting a job he/she feels is a better job, with better pay, better responsibilities, better environment, etc. it’s just complicated, because it sort of makes it look like the pastor is choosing “worldliness” and betraying “his calling” (only because of all the trumped-up language these days of ‘pastoral calling’).
it can feel necessary for pastors to embroider things a bit, to protect themselves from so much darn opinion on unmet expectations.
but then that comes across as surreptitious, and people get suspicious (rhyming an accident here).
it’s really uncool, the politics of evangelical christian culture. so unnecessarily complicated — which i believe comes down to monetizing things. too much money involved.
brain running out of steam here… hope i’m getting my point across.
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@ Bridget:
Agree and am perplexed by the constant criticism that people aren’t referencing facts when their attempts to do so are either ignored or countered by emotional appeals and red herrings.
If this Pastor and Mega-Church are truly paragons of virtue, then there’s no reason to be so defensive about criticism directed at them, in my humble opinion.
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Max wrote:
If this is how Ed Setzer operates, he is not a pastor. He is just a high dollar public speaker.
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@ Patriciamc:
No offense Patricia, but I checked out Cross Pointe’s website and there seems to be a whole lotta stuff on donate, donate, donate.
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Max wrote:
And yet Ronnie Floyd, Jack Graham (I believe) and other SBC megas follow his teachings on tithing and have him
coerceencourage their respective congregations to give more and more.It disgusts me.
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@ Janna L. Chan:
If a Mega-Church Pastor owned stock in the A Group while also being the head Pastor of a big Church it served/still serves, that might be construed as a serious conflict-of-interest for him/her on an ethical or moral level.
I’m not suggesting that that’s the case regarding the subject of this article. Rather, I’m just trying to provide an example of the type of question that I think savvy pew-sitters should ask Pastors and Churches that manage a lot of money and are affiliated with many different organizations.
I also checked out Cross Point’s website and couldn’t find any documents pertaining to audits or budgets. By contrast, an Episcopal Church I sometimes attend puts information pertaining to the Church’s budget on the Sunday morning service program each week.
It’s easier to focus on facts when a Church gives you something to work with.
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Burwell wrote:
It is ungodly preaching. The people in the pews should know their bibles better and get out of these churches IMO.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Amen, he is not a pastor in any way shape or form.
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@ dee:
This is the first church I’ve attended where the pastors seems to really want to be pastors to me.
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Daisy wrote:
Little-known fact: the first pieces of toast with his image were found at the Feeding of the Five Thousand. 😉
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Friend wrote:
LOL!
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I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-287921
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Nancy2 wrote:
People might not want to hear this, but CP doesn’t push donating or tithing. Just the usual colection-taking, and once a month, they ask everyone to give just a dollar. They then give all those proceeds to a deserving person or group as part of the Dollar Cluc. Shocking.
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Bridget wrote:
Then why have an article in the first place, the part about Pete resigning was just pure speculation, speculation about something that really is a non-event.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
All right Janna, tell us exactly what you know about Pete, about his resignation, and about your experience with Cross Point. Lay out your specifics.
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Patriciamc wrote:
That’s kind of a neat idea. What sort of recipients have their been? Needy people in the church or worthy causes outside of the church or ?
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I have done this in the past I don’t really know why it just seems like the thing to do.
After reading / listening to what I could stomach of the latest “tape”, and the other issues that get discussed here.
First to all survivors of abuse I am sorry for what was done to you, if it was / is a pastor, elder or leader in a faith community I am sorry that this was done to you. It is awful that a person who was suppose to be a “sacrament” of the grace of God did not share that grace but took advantaged and abused and hurt you. That is not ok and it is NOT YOUR FAULT. you did not sin, you are not weak, you are not wrong, you did not tempt the person. You are a brave person, you are a hero to many of us, you are that sacrament of grace God uses in the lives of many others.
To the Women here in particular. I am sorry, I apologize for the many sins of omission and commission that have been committed against you in particular and as a group. The objectification and manipulation of women in and out of the church are rampant. The power inequity in and out of the church has, is and continues to be a serious sin committed to many sisters in the faith and those who may not share the faith. It is wrong, no excuse, no couching it, it is evil and wrong.
To people who have been excommunicated for standing up to church wrongs. I am sorry and bless you for your strength and for caring enough to get involved.
Now to the group that deserves the most I’m sorries. To the children hurt, wounded, abused or in any way wronged by the church or people in the church I am sorry I am so sorry you went through this it is not the heart of God and it was / is wrong. You did nothing wrong, you did not sin, you are innocent and the apple of God’s eye.
I just felt the need to say that. God be with you all.
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@ brian:
Thank you for the wonderful comment!
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@ brian:
Thanks, Brian. That was nice. You said what many pastors/elders would never say.
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Lydia wrote:
After serving as an elder under a “pastor” whom I got to know from the inside and learned he was severely emotionally disturbed and a closeted narcissist and sadist, I agree with your sentiment, most pew sitters have no earthly clue what their weekly motivational speaker (not “pastor”, that’s a word that does not fit) is like and would be shocked if they ever knew. I sincerely doubt Patriciamc knows this man in any other capacity other than a stage celebrity.
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Burwell wrote:
Yes, Ronnie Floyd has actively promoted Robert Morris’ book “Blessed Life” and told his congregation that God will curse them if they don’t adhere rigorously to “first fruit” tithing! It must be a stressful thing to be a mega-church pastor, always worrying about the money necessary to keep the big machine moving. Perhaps such worries contributed to Pete Wilson’s burnout.
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mot wrote:
Hi MOT,
Would you please do me the kindness, if you have time, and look at the documents at
my ex-church (authoritarian, NeoCalvinist, 9 Marxist, John MacArthur-ite, Council on
Biblical Manhood Womanhood promoting) Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.
It was an independent church plant with no higher and outside church authority.
If you would mind giving me your thoughts about GBFSV’s:
*Statement of Faith
*Membership Covenant
*Bylaws
and anything else you notice…I would appreciate it.
http://www.gbfsv.org/gbf-statement-of-faith
I now describe my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley as using Scripture verses on their documents like a Venus Flytrap baits their death trap with sweet smells to attract insects. Naively enter and the jaws clamp down the system eats you up and digests you.
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jco wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that many church leaders have their own agendas, both individually and corporately. They are not God’s agendas but their theirs. They are clubs, not places of worship. On the one hand they will split denominations over women leaders but when I have challenged leaders for what they DO promote, they don’t like it. One church blatantly tolerated racism and when I told them about it, they said “we don’t want to know”. Others have promoted CJ Mahaney’s books and again, they don’t want to know the facts.
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@ brian:
Thank you, those were really kind and thoughtful words.
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ZechZav wrote:
Spot on.
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siteseer wrote:
It’s a mixture of individuals and organizations. Here’s a link (but remember, all churches are bad!)
https://crosspoint.secure2.agroup.com/news/swing-higher
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy, can you post a link to what you’re talking about? I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing. We’ve got some big donors, so there’s no need to constantly ask for money, which they don’t. Thanks!
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brian wrote:
And also with you.
Thank you Brian for your healing words. God bless you.
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Dee Deb, there was a bit of a kerfuffle the last couple of days concerning the Intervarsity decision that was, imo misquoted on all sides to some degree. But there was this issue that came up concerning suicide and I read this article by Dr. White.
https://www.facebook.com/prosapologian/posts/1289065721118277
With this bit of biblical insight
“So, Jesus said, in the good shepherd discourse, that false Messiahs are thieves who break in and attempt to steal the sheep. He clearly was indicating that thievery is wrong. Therefore, if you are a thief, you are “wrong.” So, if a thief becomes depressed over this, and commits suicide, it is, of course, Jesus’ fault for having identified that person’s lifestyle as sinful. Someone might say, “That is not a direct parallel, for homosexuality is a constitutive element of a person’s being.” So you claim, and yet there is solid evidence against that. And from a Christian worldview (well, one that takes the Bible seriously anyway, which leaves out the liberal, compromised denominations) that is not a tenable position. So let’s try another. Jesus identified adultery as sin. Yet many a person today claims “polyamory” and “bisexuality” as constitutive of their makeup, right? So, if an adulterer commits suicide, it is perfectly proper to blame Jesus, and Paul, and Peter, and Moses, right? ”
In my years volunteering in suicide and crisis prevention programs, the main focus was to prevent people from committing suicide, not winning some moral argument. The same thing could be said about 9-11 as some said that or the tsunami of 2004 were God’s wrath being delivered against sinful man so to alleviate or try to prevent God’s wrath is a sin. I dont think one takes a theological measuring stick to check the doctrine of someone in destress one helps. I found what he wrote deeply troubling, though I do understand the worldview and I have listened to about 3/4 of his debates and read several of his books. I just dont get this type of thinking.
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mirele wrote:
Personally, I’ve been thinking about this for a rather long time. (Like, years, not the last 15 minutes). I have made a conscious decision that I’m not going to call anymore “pastors” ” “Pastor [Insert name here]” now that mine has retired. I think its time to go to something less loaded.
Just me. Like my mom, who stayed one class shy of a master’s degree because’ she said’: “There’s only one Master”.
Anyhow, all the titles skeeve me out, too.
This remains subject to change by the aforementioned Master.
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Brian,
James White is an extreme Calvinist who believes that God predestines people to eternal punishment for his own glory and pleasure. His only redeeming feature is that he is more honest about it than John Piper or John MacArthur who also believe that. Piper will spend 300 pages of politician style “double talk” trying to escape the implications and inevitable objections of his Calvinism – a truly hopeless task. I have read James White a few times and he stinks of intellectual pride and arrogance. Paul said “If I know all mysteries and all knowledge, but have not love, I am nothing” (1 Corinthians 13). I do not detect any love in White’s words, only a desire to be theologically correct. I personally agree with Justin Lee and probably Matthew Vines, although I have not read the latters book, I know where he is coming from. Others on TWW will probably take a more traditional position. Laying those differences aside, churches which take the traditional position need to do more actively to help. There were anti-abortion campaigners who thankfully realised that saying no to abortion was not enough. They set up clinics to help those with unwanted pregnancies and provided practical support for them. White and others like him need to follow this principle, but I see little evidence that they are doing so. This story from Justin Lee is worth reading. I share it because I have experience here and this sounds like my story when I followed this teaching: http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/47624732313/story-time-for-the-church
If they believe that God can predestine someone to the lake of fire for his own glory and pleasure, then God is a cruel monster and humanity is viewed as trash. Once they get past this, they can turn a blind eye, a deaf ear and a hard heart to the frustrations of unmarried people, gay people being driven to suicide, the pain of battered wives (remember the callousness of John Piper’s video) and they can tolerate all kinds of racism and misogyny.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Spellcheck definitely is of the devil.
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Amy Smith wrote:
And there you are. Just the kind of thing that drives me up the wall. Folks are supposed to be powered by Jesus Christ.
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Christiane wrote:
Agreed. It’s crazy.
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Lydia wrote:
That means he was most probably a Methodist. (We invented circuit riding).
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zooey111 wrote:
It makes me chuckle when I hear the phrase “Methodist circuit”. It makes me think of vicars doing aerobics 🙂
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brian wrote:
Absolutely! I don’t think I can read the whole article, because the bit you quoted is so appalling. It was more like don’t blame us if someone commits suicide. Awful.
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Hi Dave and Others Looking for the Legal Status of Organizations:
In my experience, the best way to find the legal status of any corporate entity, be it non-profit or for profit, is referencing the Department of Assessments and Taxation in the state in which the organization is located. Please note, that’s what Maryland calls the department but other States may have different names for the same government office.
Each State’s Department of Taxation and Assessment has a list, often found through what’s called a “business entity search,” of all registered businesses (a non-profit counts as a type of business) are listed.
This is a surprisingly simple process to go through once you’ve done it a few times but it’s probably initially daunting.
If anyone would like help doing a business entity search, feel free to ask Dee or Deb for my e-mail address or ask Todd Wilhelm, at http://thouarttheman.org, to forward an e-mail to me.
You can also just ask me to do the research in the comments section although I may not see your comment, so it’s probably best to make contact directly either way.
Thanks!
P.S. – I also apologize for any typos I make, but I usually only draw attention to them if they effect the meaning of whatever information I was trying to convey.
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@ Patriciamc:
Hi Patricia:
I owe you an apology. I could have worded some of the comments I directed to you in a much more kind and friendly way. In particular, I apologize for my rudeness in saying you were naive.
I do hope you’ll forgive me.
Going forward, I’ll need to politely decline the offer to continue talking about all aspects of Cross Point’s current apparent controversy, at length.
The Church does do a lot of great work in the community, based on what I’ve researched, and I hope you continue to be very happy there.
Best,
Janna
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Unless it’s really embarrassing in which case I’ll say I meant “affect,” not “effect.”
Ouch!
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dee wrote:
I was able to find the Prayer Force document on the CotH website not that long ago. It’s still there but moved from the TWW link in the original post.
I live in Birmingham & know a ton of ppl that go to CotH. The average member doesn’t know about this document, so it doesn’t surprise me that Patriciamc doesn’t think that Cross Pointe doesn’t buy in to any of this. Most of the ppl I know that go to CotH would think this is crazy too. The average member doesn’t look beyond Pastor Chris’s *amazing* messages and the cool factor of CotH. However, the fact that these beliefs are part of their DNA gives me pause…
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@ ZechZav:
Great comment! Viewing humans as nothing but worms cannot lead to a good outcome vs Viewing them as of great value with ability, can.
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Hi zooey111
Full agreement. Stoped doing this years ago.
“I’m not going to call anymore “pastors” ” “Pastor [Insert name here]”
But some of these poor, perilous, phoney, pastors, persist…
So – Whenever a pastor would ask me to call him by his “Title.”
(Some would actually say,
“please use my “title” when congregation members are around.”) 🙁
Often, I would answer, “okay, and, I have a “Title” also.”
I’ll call you by your “Title” and you can call me by My “Title.” Fair?
You see sir, My Polish Uncle became a Pastor…
He was the Polish Pastor of the First Chuch of the Pleasant Parables of the Presence of God.
And he belived that Proper, Preparation, Precedes, Powerful, Perfomance…
So he Prayed a lot.
He was so succesful he began his own denomination…
So he could never be fired again… 😉
And he made me, his wonderful nephew, second in command.
Nothing like keeping the Profitable, Prophet, Profession, Pleasantly, in the family.
And, My Uncle, gave to me a most wonderful “Title” to Phit my Phvorit Powerul Postion.
His Holyness, The Most Holy Right Reverend, Vicar, Father, Amos.
I’ll call you by your “Title” and you can call me by My “Title.”
Now, My friends just call me “His Holyness,” But you can practice with “The whole Title.”
That would be fair – Yes?
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@ zooey111:
zooey111
Yes?
“Anyhow, all the titles skeeve me out, too.”
And, NOT one of His Disciples had the “title” pastor.
Job 32:21-22 KJV
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give “Flattering Titles” unto man.
For I know not to give “FlatteringTitles;”
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
———-
In my experience with the “Title/Position” of *Today’s* pastor/leader/reverend…
“Titles” become “Idols” ………….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters”……..A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV
“Leaders” become “Deceivers”….Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
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zooey111 wrote:
Well, I think that’s just a matter of opinion. I have no problem with a church looking for help in organization, how to attract people, how to handle traffic/parking issues (like my former church), etc. I don’t think it’s a moral failing. A church covering up abuse or defending a pedophile, well, that’s something else.
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dee wrote:
What is COH?
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Katie wrote:
I had to work yesterday, so tomorrow at church, I’ll ask around. If the church has something like this, then not only will I eat my words, I’ll eat them a la mode, and I’m lactose intolerant!
But…if there is nothing like that at my church, will people here agree that sometimes it’s easy to try to make a situation evil when it’s not? Speaking very broadly here, not looking a just this blog, I’ve noticed, particularly in the area of celebrity news, there will be bad situations that must be reported. After a while, it’s easy to say that all certain situations or all people associated with those situations are bad. Then, it’s like we want them to be bad because they confirm our biases and because, well, it’s entertaining to read about. I’ll leave you this food for thought:
I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something
Something I can use
People love it when you lose
They love dirty laundry…
We got the bubble headed
Bleached blonde
Comes on at five
She can tell you ’bout the plane crash
With a gleam in her eye
It’s interesting when people die
Give us dirty laundry…
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down…You know the rest.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
Hey, no worries. I just wondered if you had had an experience with Cross Point, particularly a bad experience. Sure, there are bad churches and bad ministers out there. This blog is great about calling them out. Not every place is bad, though. I do hope you’ll keep hanging around this blog and maybe find a great church too, if you haven’t already.
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@ Patriciamc:
Thanks for the kind reply, Patricia. To my knowledge, I have not had any experience, negative or positive, with Cross Point or the relevant organizations it appears to be affiliated with.
The issues I raised I would bring up regarding the integrity of any Church or Pastor. In particular, I think it’s important for all members to know how their money is being spent.
I go to several Churches I’m happy with and will probably formally join one as a member shortly.
Certainly, I like TWW.
Thanks.
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@ Patriciamc:
I think those song lyrics are unfair. I went and read through Pete’s Twitter, website and other things. It was deja vu for me. Triggering. It was like being back in the land of Rick Warren. Bob Buford, Peter Drucker, Jim Collins and their ilk for the let’s get wealthy off Jesus, Church Growth Movement. That is A Group philosophy which Crosspoint paid to get there. There is so much money in it!
There is no such thing as a transparent mega church. It is impossible. Most staffers don’t even know what is going on at the top levels most of the time. That is hard for the pew sitters to understand the whole thing is designed around cult if personality. They are going to need a new one!
But some are sold on them. I know a ton of people who attend them and that is their right and their business. I reserve the right to warn against them if allowed. And in my experience, those places were few.
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@ Patriciamc:
One glaring omission I noticed in Pete’s resignation talk was where he and his family will be attending church. Was he just saying I quit, or goodbye? Apologies if someone mentioned this upstream… I have very little Internet and will check back tomorrow. Maybe he talked about this elsewhere, but if not, maybe you can ask someone tomorrow. Good thing it’s not a 9 Marxist church or he might be facing some discipline. 🙂
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Max wrote:
All the more reason for bloggers like TWW and picketers like mirele to keep the heat turned up. If it frees one human being from these shamans and despots, it’s well worth it!
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Any chance I get I will post up this link. This remains the best thing I have come across in years as far as what the real problem is with “burn out” and related church leader scandals. The real problem is the prevailing attitude that pastors and their followers have about what success is in a local church: http://fallenpastor.com/the-church-as-mistress-the-wounded-church-part-1/
We have a worldly mindset that comes out of American culture. Our views are not based in the actual plain teachings of Jesus.
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@ Patriciamc:
I know nothing about Cross Point so this may just be a Co H thing!
Didn’t mean to offend!
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Dave A A wrote:
One sure way for a new pastor’s ministry to get crippled from the start, is for the old pastor to still be hanging around. I know he invested a lot of time there, but he needs to move on. Folks will continue to migrate to him if he’s still there, hindering the new pastor from getting established.
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@ Max:
Just want to say that I appreciate your insightful comments, Max. In particular, you have good suggestions for practical problems.
Thanks!
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I have written volumes about Maurillio Amorim and the “A Group” since the inception of my blog, and his arrogance in consulting for my former church.
The “church consultants” might have a place, but his arrogance and flaunting of his success on social media, even making fun of the very folks that paid his consulting fees was sickening. I called him out on this in many, many articles. Also the transformation of events at churches into revenue-producing events amd marketing opportunities – it was something that disturbed me greatly in 2006 to 2009 and thus I wrote much about it.
I will give Maurillio credit for this: he was the very first adopter of Twitter that I can remember. He immediately saw it as a powerhouse in social media and used it way back before it was cool. The problem was he used it at times to flaunt his wealth and success, and as I said to make fun of the plebe that paid his consulting fees. I’ve documented much of this on my fbcjaxwatchdog blog over the years.
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@ Janna L. Chan:
Janna, I’m pleased to hear that you have found value in my comments. Is common sense a spiritual gift?! ;^)
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Max wrote:
I understand your thinking and have heard this before, but why? To me, this is as bad as the average pew person being asked to leave a church community they have been part of for 20 years because they are not in lock step with the current pastor. Why this move on and leave all behind mentality? Think of all the relationships made that one is asked to leave behind. If no one is causing trouble, why ask them to leave — old pastor of member?
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@ Tom R:
I remember reading it. Thanks for your early work! Some things just never go away!
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Bridget wrote:
Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing. I think it depends on the personality of the previous pastor. It seems weird to me, but maybe it makes transitioning easier. I think it would more likely be a previous pastor who wants to make sure he isn’t asked to do things after he has a break, whether it be simple resignation or retirement? Maybe it’s different if it’s retirement, though.
It seems like if he doesn’t want to be involved, he could just refer everything to the new leadership.
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@ Bridget:
Bridget, I understand your reasoning on this. However, I don’t place being shunned or excommunicated in the same category as a voluntary exit. I was young and now am old and have witnessed several examples (including a current one in my community) where an ex-pastor remained as a member of a church and continued to exert an influence over the church in a leadership role … to the hindrance of the new pastor. In the local congregational church I mentioned, the old pastor actually has a following of members serving as a voting block in business meetings – they look to him for direction to cast their vote on issues. On rare occasions, I have seen this work, however … it depends on the humility-level of the old pastor and wisdom in the pew. I suspect the early church embraced older leaders who retired (if they ever did), but the modern church with its host of celebrity pastors is a long way from first century church. It depends on the spiritual maturity of both man and church. In today’s Christianity Lite, there isn’t a lot of that floating around in either pulpit or pew.
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Bridget wrote:
Should be “or”
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@ Bridget:
Because we have been taught to Revere the “leadership” of certain humans. Our society, as a whole, is now eaten up with it. There is this universal thinking that someone has to always be in charge of the adults.
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Max wrote:
True. The Church today is immature, made that way by the gathering of functions into one, or a few, people who become “the top” hierarchy.
Do notice that the pew people I mentioned weren’t being excommunicated or shunned. They just had differences with what was going on.
I guess I view the way the church should function more like a family. The elders may get older and not be able to keep up with day to day physical activities, but wisdom does not leave a person unless the mind is also feeble. The elders should be included in all activities of the church as much as they are able. The gifts and administrations should be spread out among all believers anyway. One or two people should not be responsible for the bulk of functions.
I guess coming from a large family, and extended family, where no one person ever got everything the way they wanted, and everyone had to give to make it work, now seems more like a healthy picture of a church than what the Church looks like today.
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@ Lydia:
Your comment posted while I was composing. 🙂
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Bridget wrote:
The church shouldn’t change so much from pastor to pastor, imo. If the church is the church regardless, than what does the top guy matter so much? You would think he would be happy to have the wisdom of someone older with experience. But the problem is that they become centered completely around one person and another person who has power is a threat to that. So that’s a problem. But it doesn’t have to be.
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@ Max:
Our pastor officially retired July 1, 2015. He still attends and is still a member of our church. It is now Oct. 9, 2016 and the pulpit committee hasn’t even invited a preacher for a trial sermon, yet.
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@ Tom R:
Thanks for the information, Tom. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with hiring consultants. However, people who are good stewards of their money should keep tabs on what these hired outsiders are really doing for the Church.
Especially a for-profit company like the A Group, which has to emphasize the bottom line to keep its shareholders happy. It seems as though Cross Point Church could have worked with non-profit Christian organizations that’s priorities might at least theoretically be more aligned with the Church’s non-profit status.
That’s just my opinion, of course.
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@ Max:
Well, I know atheists and agnostics with common sense, so I think it’s just a gift, generally. Good parenting seems to help, as well.
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Janna L. Chan wrote:
It also helps to live a long life on planet earth and be pulled through knot-holes. You either develop common sense to avoid the knot-holes of life or get pulled through another one. Agreed about good parenting – mine help steer me in the right direction; it was when I detoured away from their advice that I encountered knot-holes.
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Max wrote:
True… But it apparently never even occurred to him to let the sheep know what his plans were… Just as he forgot to mention the new gig he’s starting while he’s tired, broken, empty, and not ok.
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Lydia wrote:
Didn’t this used to be called “Fuehrerprinzip”?
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Max wrote:
So if you choose NOT getting evicted onto the street over lining Pastor’s pockets, Pastor puts a Hex on you.
In Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction, one common archetypes of The Bad Guy was the rural Appalachian conjure-man or witch-man who’d extort money by casting Hexes on people or threatening to. My Pennsylvania Dutch contacts also say in stories of their folk-magic traditions, this is a common use of Hexerai (black magic).
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Dave A A wrote:
I don’t know. Someone at small group might know. He’s been out of town since he resigned (spending time with the kids). If I were he, I might feel strange going back as just a regular member, but that’s just me.
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Cross Point update: attendance has fallen, although it was nice to finally be able to park in the main lot. Guest speaker was Bob Goff (fantastic!). In the book area, books for sale by Lisa Harper (who’s an upcoming guest speaker), Jon Acuff (who’s a member), and Financial Peace materials (because we have several classes going on). I asked a minister about a forced prayer manual, and he looked confused and said he didn’t know what that was, but we did have a prayer team people could join. He said that ARC was a church-planting organization and that Robert Morris was a minister in TX (I think he said Texas). He also said, and this is a direct quote, “Is he affiliated with ARC?”
So, there you have it folks.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Curiously Bob Goff blocked me and anyone else on Twitter who questioned the conduct of Davy Blackburn bizarre, outrageous statements following the murder of his wife Amanda. Goff defended Blackburn, including Blackburn saying that Amanda’s murder brought revival!
Good night.
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Patriciamc wrote:
what is ‘forced prayer’?
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Christiane wrote:
Yes, sorry. My bad.
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Patriciamc wrote:
I’m sorry Christine, I didn’t read your question well. It’s a prayer force manual, and that’s what I asked about. I reversed the words above. Anyway, he said CP doesn’t have one.
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Thanks – I wrote that piece. And it’s true that in ministry we chase the wrong things to our detriment.
Also might want to check out something I wrote about Pete Wilson and people who comment about the situation. Some of these comments make my heart grieve.
http://fallenpastor.com/whats-proper-response-pastoral-burnout/
@ Mr. Jesperson:
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Velour wrote:
I’m surprised. I too question the conduct of Davy Blackburn, and I’m not a fan of blocking people.
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Velour wrote:
Then shall we Murder so that Revival may abound?
(Sure it’s rough on the one getting murdered, but think How Many Souls Will Be Saved! Besides, it’s only a woman!)