Was This 2010 TWW Post a Harbinger of Things to Come? *Tullian Tchvidjian: Why Dost Thou Lie?*

"This year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people." CS Lewis link

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In 2010, I wrote a post about Tullian Tchividjian. During this time, we were in the process of moving our blog to GoDaddy. This post was left out of our updated blog along with another post mentioning a book I loved called Broken Angel. I mentioned the book in this post in 2009 when I discussed Calvin. I highly recommend this Christian fantasy which takes place in a section of the US which is ruled by Christian legalists.

There may have been others that have gone missing but I hope not. Thankfully, I put this entire post into a Word Document and saved it. I have decided to repeat it here since it seems to gives some insight into Tullian's willingness to not tell the truth even when it was totally unnecessary to lie. The crowd would have liked him anyway. See if you get what I am saying. It was fascinating to read this many years later. 

Please keep in mind that TT changed in the ensuing yearsl We wrote what we knew at that time in 2010.

(Some of the old links may no longer work. Also, the pagination on all old posts is a little screwy due to the switch and we don't have time to make them look nice.)


Several weeks ago, some new friends at a new church invited us to attend a fundraising banquet for a well-respected pregnancy support center. When we received our tickets we asked who the speaker would be. Much to our surprise, the featured speaker was William Graham Tertullian Tchividjian. TWW did a series on Tullian Tchvidjian (henceforth to be called TT) and the terrible turmoil that ensued after he assumed the pulpit of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church after the death of its well-known pastor D. James Kennedy.

The short story is that he caused so much turmoil that many of the leaders and deacons along with Kennedy’s daughter left the church and started a new church in October of 2009.

We sat with our friends along with others and explained that TT is part of the Calvinista (hyper Calvinist movement) and is good friends with Josh Harris and John Piper. He is also a part of the Gospel Coalition. I also told our friends that the “big “ trend in this crowd is to quote the Puritans and that TWW intended to do our own version of Puritan history next week.

JD Greear, a friend of TT, gave the invocation. The master of ceremonies read from a biography that TT had written for, of all things, the Gospel Coalition before introducing him. He explained that his name William Graham was after his granddaddy, Billy Graham, and Tullian was after the early church father and defender of the Gospel, Tertullian.  TT came to the podium.

He prayed for God’s sovereign, outrageous, stunning grace. I wondered if that was a shout out to his buddies over at Sovereign Grace Ministries. TT was a well-dressed, deeply tanned man with a pleasant speaking voice and features that might remind one of his famous grandfather. He utilized similar hand movements as well.

Frankly, it all went south from this point. It is important for the reader to understand that this pregnancy support center has peacefully existed in one of the most liberal towns in North Carolina for over two decades. They eschew political involvement and protests, preferring instead to quietly serve, in a noncoercive way, women with crisis pregnancies. They gently and clearly model the love of Jesus Christ in this fine work and saved the lives of many children.

TT told the audience that he receives so many invitations to speak each year and can’t accept all of them. (Yep, we got it, TT is very popular). In fact, he said, he had to cancel a couple of engagement in the fall due to responsibilities at his church. (I tried to keep a straight face-about 400 people, including most of the elders and Kennedy’s daughter walked out of his church and started a new church in early October-see our posts this weekend).

The next statements are germane to the title of this post. He told us that he normally modifies existing sermons and talks to give his speeches to outside groups. However, he said he could not do that for this group. He claimed to have a deep affinity for this organization. He claimed that he felt led to do something unique and special for this particular talk and that he put this before the Lord in much prayer. He claimed the Lord answered his prayer and that he found something unique to share with us.

The title of his talk was Anger. He discussed how Christians are perceived as angry with issues such as abortion and that, as Christians, we should be angry only with God’s righteous anger. But, our anger should be tempered with grief. He utilized Mark 3:1-5 along with Ephesians 4:26-27. Believe me, this is relevant. He discussed that God centered anger occurs when God’s ways are maligned and God is dishonored. Self-centered anger is when we have been maligned and we have been dishonored. He then made a statement quite familiar to those involved with CJ Mahaney. “When you are as bad as I am, this is hard.” (Another candidate for the worst sinner in the world contest-step aside Mahaney-this guy’s got Billy Graham on his side)!

Then he spoke of a conference a few years ago in which he was a speaker and was sitting with John Piper and some other speakers on the platform and there were 5,000 people in the room (Yep, we know you are an important and in demand guy and you are on the same level as Piper).

He said there was a pastor who was the editor of a well-known magazine known for its sometimes sarcastic look at cultural and political issues. Apparently, TT said, this man was being sarcastic and John Piper grabbed the microphone and said to this man something along the lines of, “I read your magazine cover to cover but I want to know, where are your tears?” According to the TT, the room silenced at this supposedly deserved rebuke from the great John Piper. Apparently, Piper doesn’t buy Matthew 18 in real life either.

To make matters worse, TT then says, “ I won’t tell you the pastors name. You wouldn’t know him anyway.” I guess the 5,000 attendees were the only ones with the good enough sense to “know” such a man. TWW has an idea of when and what that conference was and will find out the name of said magazine and pastor that only the “elite” Calvinistas would know. When we find out, we will inform our readers. Any readers with ideas, please feel free to comment. Any person that ticks off Piper and makes him go “non Matthew 18 postal ” might be worth getting to know.

In keeping with the current rage of Puritan quoting, TT repeated a Puritan quote that he keeps in his office. “Be soonest angry with thyself.”(Yep, we know you are up on the coolest trends like quoting Puritans). He went on and on in this vein for quite awhile. I felt distinctly uncomfortable but I wasn’t sure why.

He then told us that he has a teenage daughter who is a legitimate model in magazines. He said he received a text from his wife two hours prior to the fundraiser that said daughter had shaved off her eyebrows, arm hair and leg hair. He somehow tied this in with the thought that we should see past the external and see the internal. Huh? Modeling focuses on the external so why is his daughter doing it? And, shaving off ones eyebrows is definitely making a statement and my guess is that his daughters “internal” needs some help. (Although I did read a news story that at a fashion show in Milan, recently, a couple of models were “browless” raising the eyebrows of those who still had the good sense to have some)!

Finally, he mentioned that he was told that when David Jeremiah came to speak to this particular group a few years back that there were around 1100 in the audience. He then laughingly said that there were only 500 who came to hear him so that he hoped we would try to give more money so Jeremiah wouldn’t outdo him. Normally, I would find this sort of comment amusing. But, somehow, it hit just a bit off. He ended with a prayer and someone started singing immediately so there was no time for applause.

My husband grabbed my arm and said, “let’s leave.” He told me he found TT arrogant and that his speech was canned and inappropriate for the kindly folk in this audience. I said that TT said that the speech was unique and special for this group. Hubby disagreed and told me to search his sermons. I just thought he was in a bad mood. But, I had to agree that that I found TT just another same old, same old Calvinista.

This morning I called Deb, my counterpart on TWW, and told her what my husband had said. She asked me to read her my notes while she started to Google. I heard her start to laugh. She asked me again about the Bible verses, the Piper incident, and what he said about how God views anger.

Well, lo and behold, on TT’s blog dated November 18, 2009, he has an entry entitled, God Centered Anger. He is quoting from his book, Unfashionable, which was published in April 4, 2009. Here is a link to that blog entry.http://www.crpc.org/blog/?p=754 (This site is no longer functioning.)

 In my book Unfashionable I have a chapter on the need for the church to exhibit more anger. Of course, the anger I describe is not self-centered anger, but God-centered anger. God-centered anger is when you get angry because God has been dishonored and his ways have been maligned. Self-centered anger is when you’re angry because you have been dishonored or your ways have been maligned. In my book I highlight Mark 3:1-5, which provides us with a memorable example of God-centered anger.”

If you will read the entire blog entry and go to the book, you will find that this chapter and blog is almost, word for word, identical to the special and unique speech that he claimed that God had give him for this special pregnancy support fundraiser!!

Here is the problem. TT caused a whole mess of problems at Coral Ridge. It is incumbent on him to maintain a high degree of integrity to show his maturity in this mess. There was absolutely no need for him to lie about the source of his talk. He could have simply said that it came from his book and that he felt it applied to this situation. No one would have blinked.

Recently, John Edwards (now known in North Carolina as Scumdog Millionaire) was caught by reporters at a hotel visiting his paramour. When asked if he was with his honey, he lied. Now, lying is wrong but we all understand why he lied. Our question is this. If TT had to lie when there was no pressure or expectation, what will he do when his back is against the wall? And how does this reflect on his handling of the mess in his church?

Finally, in April of this year, there is a conference in Durham with an organization called Advance the Gospel in conjunction with Acts 29 and TT is a featured speaker. We would seriously question the wisdom of including TT as a main speaker. He has a church in turmoil and he lied at a conference. In our opinion, he needs to spend a whole lot more time reading the Gospel and less time enjoying the limelight. And as for John Piper, we say this in a very serious vein. We grieve to see this sort of thing happening in our midst. Perhaps he would do us a favor and teach TT a bit about honesty and kindness. And he don’t need to do it in front of 5000 people.

My husband said to me, “TT is no Tertullian, no Billy Graham and no D. James Kennedy.” Perhaps he’s right. Tullian needs to be is Tullian. He seems to be trying to be something or someone else. Why?

Comments

Was This 2010 TWW Post a Harbinger of Things to Come? *Tullian Tchvidjian: Why Dost Thou Lie?* — 43 Comments


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    First?


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    Second!


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    “Frankly, it all went south from this point.”

    I hope nobody ever writes that about me … eeekk!

    TT is one of those guys who has been overcome by the truth. Time has exposed him. I feel sorry for all of those who have been hurt over the years.

    Very sad.


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    Original post said

    …TWW did a series on Tullian Tchvidjian (henceforth to be called TT) and…

    I just thank goodness that his name wasn’t something like…

    Peter Parker or Paul Poe or Pablo Peterson.

    (lame joke) 🙂


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    Actually, he could go by WGTT!


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    Looks like Tullian has a pattern of lying. Lying is a transgression of one of the Ten Commandments; perhaps he doesn’t know this. Extremely arrogant folks have a problem with this particular sin; they always feel a need to stretch the truth to puff themselves up even more in the eyes of others. New Calvinism is plagued with arrogance.

    In fact, Tullian’s sins of the flesh which brought an end to his ministry broke 4 of the Big 10 (as I noted earlier today in another TWW post):

    1) He took the Lord’s name in vain (to represent Christ as a pastor and violate the trust of those entrusted to you, is to bear His name in vain).

    (2) He lied (deception is a lie).

    (3) He coveted his neighbor’s wife.

    (4) He committed adultery.

    After reading my comment, Velour add a 5th transgression:

    (5) He murdered (he killed marriages, he killed family relationships, he killed friendships, he killed ties to God).

    Repentance is certainly in order for TT, but restoration to ministry should be out of the question.


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    Anonymous wrote:

    “Frankly, it all went south from this point.”

    Probably ended up in London.

    #ohFlowerOfScotland


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    Daisy wrote:

    (lame joke)

    I saw what you did there…

    It’s also a good thing he wasn’t called Fluffy WaffleBottom. Though for different reasons.


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    I am highly skeptical of anyone who is in the “ministry” because they had a famous father, mother, uncle, aunt or whatever. The gifts of God are not passed down through a family line. They are given as God sees fit.


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    @ Remnant:
    YES! Faster than a jaguar!


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    @ Jan:
    I might try that one time.


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    “My husband said to me, “TT is no Tertullian, no Billy Graham and no D. James Kennedy.” Perhaps he’s right. Tullian needs to be is Tullian. He seems to be trying to be something or someone else. Why?”

    TT needs to become ‘real’, yes. But when a young man comes along needing to mention his grandfather’s name in order to assume gravitas,
    he knows he isn’t ‘there yet’. His ‘edges are too sharp’ and he is ‘too easily broken’.

    I bet TT never read ‘The Velveteen Rabbit’ as a child, or he would have known what it takes to become ‘real’:

    “““Real isn’t how you are made,’ said the Skin Horse. ‘It’s a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.’

    ‘Does it hurt?’ asked the Rabbit.

    ‘Sometimes,’ said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. ‘When you are Real you don’t mind being hurt.’

    ‘Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,’ he asked, ‘or bit by bit?’

    ‘It doesn’t happen all at once,’ said the Skin Horse. ‘You become. It takes a long time. That’s why it doesn’t happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don’t matter at all, because once you are Real you can’t be ugly, except to people who don’t understand.”
    ( Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit )


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    This is a post about tactics and analysis of the culture inside Steve Estes Community Evangelical Free Church.

    An email from someone inside Community Evangelical Free Church highlights the issues in the culture of this Evangelical Free Church in Elverson, Pennsylvania. My response is posted below but I never heard back from the person, which is disappointing to me. This is a tutorial on the culture that exists in Steve Estes church and the tactics of questionable churches

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/10/05/a-tutorial-using-an-email-from-community-evangelical-free-church-in-elverson-pennsylvania/#more-7808


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    The shaving off of the eyebrows was actually a little bit of a trend sometime in the mid or late 1990s with some fashion models, actresses, and pop singers.


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    From the OP: He said there was a pastor who was the editor of a well-known magazine known for its sometimes sarcastic look at cultural and political issues. Apparently, TT said, this man was being sarcastic and John Piper grabbed the microphone and said to this man something along the lines of, “I read your magazine cover to cover but I want to know, where are your tears?” According to the TT, the room silenced at this supposedly deserved rebuke from the great John Piper. Apparently, Piper doesn’t buy Matthew 18 in real life either.

    To make matters worse, TT then says, “ I won’t tell you the pastors name. You wouldn’t know him anyway.” I guess the 5,000 attendees were the only ones with the good enough sense to “know” such a man. TWW has an idea of when and what that conference was and will find out the name of said magazine and pastor that only the “elite” Calvinistas would know. When we find out, we will inform our readers. Any readers with ideas, please feel free to comment. Any person that ticks off Piper and makes him go “non Matthew 18 postal ” might be worth getting to know.

    Did anyone guess the name of the sarcastic man at the time of the original post? My guess would have been Doug Wilson. In my experience, a lot of the people I knew back East had never heard of him at that time, but he was definitely well known in hyper-Calvinist circles on the western side of the Rockies.

    Also, did you re-publish that Puritan history? I need to go looking for that… quoting the Puritans was big in our former church.


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    p.s. Your husband sounds very well-informed and astute. Had he read and remembered that particular blog post?


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I’m not sure about where you live, but in the United States, often, when kids are learning the alphabet at school and have to recite it in front of the class, invariably, before getting to the letter “P,” a lot of kids pause at that point and either the classmates start giggling or the kid does.


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    @ Jan:

    Me too. I don’t think of being a preacher as a family job handed down from generation to generation.


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    I bet Mark Dever and Al Mohler would bar the Gospel giant Tertullian from the communion rail if he were alive today. In fact, I don’t think Calvin could come either. He baptized babies, he believed that communion was more than a memorial and he didn’t exactly have nice things to say about the Christians who refused to baptize babies. In fact, why do they always praise Luther? Have you read what he believed about baptism and the lords supper? I am so over all these men quoting, adoring, etc all the giants of the reformation who would have probably had extremely nasty, uncharitable things to say about these baptist and revivalist presbyterians. The presbyterians could have stayed around but the baptist probably would have been drowned.
    Deb or Dee check out RC Sprouls conference for next year to celebrate the 500 year anniversary of Martin Luther (not a Calvinist) starting the reformation. I laughed a lot when I realized no one was speaking at his conference from the tradition that bears Luther’s name, you know the heirs of Luther and his rediscovery of the Gospel. Nope, just a ton of “Reformed” Baptist and Presbyterians. I had a pretty good laugh at that. Mainly because Luther called all the people who would not baptize babies “enthusiasts” and I think he said they were of the devil. So, I guess Luther just out 9marxed 9 marx.


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    “There was absolutely no need for him to lie”
    I don’t know TT at all to know if he fits the category. I’ve had association with a few people who seemed to be habitual liars. They often distorted the truth or simply made things up usually in small attempts to manipulate. If they were late, make up a story, if they were negotiating make up a sob story to set the other person at a disadvantage emotionally. It was a continual trail of mistruth used to manipulate their colleagues or audience.

    When I say habitual, I mean habitual, watching them it became clear it was no longer a calculation, the lie was made out of habit. They didn’t need a reason to lie, it was automatic. If they had stopped to make the calculation they would have realized that sometimes the truth would have given them greater mileage than the lie, yet they told the lie.


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    Bill M wrote:

    “There was absolutely no need for him to lie”
    I don’t know TT at all to know if he fits the category. I’ve had association with a few people who seemed to be habitual liars.

    In my experience with NPDs / BPDs, one of their signature traits is to lie when there is no good reason to lie. In saying this, I am not trying to diagnose TT. But this is one of tells of these disorders. The ones I have known lied about things that made no sense. The truth would not have made them look bad or anything. It seems that they spin it the way they want it to look in the moment and 15 minutes later, may spin it a different way and insist that you heard them wrong the first time. That is why the internet and it’s way back machine are so problematic for these guys. They can’t credibly insist they never said that. It is why sites like TWW are so valuable.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    That is why the internet and it’s way back machine are so problematic for these guys. They can’t credibly insist they never said that. It is why sites like TWW are so valuable.

    And screenshots, lots of lots of screen shots. 🙂


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    Daisy wrote:

    Peter Parker or Paul Poe or Pablo Peterson.

    (lame joke)

    Or John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith. (another lame joke)
    I never realized Tullian was short for Tertullian. Kind of a big order for him to live up to, I guess.

    Jan wrote:

    I am highly skeptical of anyone who is in the “ministry” because they had a famous father, mother, uncle, aunt or whatever. The gifts of God are not passed down through a family line. They are given as God sees fit.

    And this whole situation is a good illustration of that.


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    @ refugee:
    He was glad I wrote that one. He wasn’t surprised by the TT situation.


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    @ Robin C:
    They are in the process of rewriting the history of Luther so that he will for sure come out as a calvinist!

    I liked Luther’s take on communion. It is a halfway point between purely symbolic and transubstantiation. he described it as an iron which is placed in the fire. The fire infuses the iron but does not become the iron.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Robin C:
    They are in the process of rewriting the history of Luther so that he will for sure come out as a calvinist!

    Remember how TT quoted Luther and Lutheran theologians constantly? One of the reason TGC got upset with him. Mark Jones, Calvinista extraorinaire was so worried that he wrote a post for reformation 21 called “Folks, we are not Lutheran!” I know someone who is a professor at Westminster Philadelphia and he told me Luther is more in line with the Reformed and Lutherans just followed Melacthon. I just rolled my eyes. There is sermon after sermon and writing after writing of Luther which clearly demonstrates he had a different take than Calvin on lots of things but I find that the Reformed are obsessed with making Luther into their own image because it probably irks them that a non Calvinist “rediscovered” the gospel before them.

    Also TT upset more confessional Lutherans because he was quoting modern Lutherans that sort implied that Good Works were totally impossible to actually accomplish and many felt he was promoting a mild antinomian spirit. I completely changed at that idea because of course I wanted to get behind TT for so many reasons but, I think those confessional Lutherans were right.

    Also ditto on liking Luthers take on communion.

    I liked Luther’s take on communion. It is a halfway point between purely symbolic and transubstantiation. he described it as an iron which is placed in the fire. The fire infuses the iron but does not become the iron.


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    Jan wrote:

    I am highly skeptical of anyone who is in the “ministry” because they had a famous father, mother, uncle, aunt or whatever. The gifts of God are not passed down through a family line. They are given as God sees fit.

    Amen!

    Nepotism in evangelical ranks is common and VERY wrong.


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    Max wrote:

    New Calvinism is plagued with arrogance.

    One could almost say that this along with its cousin pride is a defining characteristic of New Calvinism.


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    @ Daisy:

    Things aren’t dissimilar in Scotland…


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    Robin C wrote:

    I bet Mark Dever and Al Mohler would bar the Gospel giant Tertullian from the communion rail if he were alive today. In fact, I don’t think Calvin could come either. He baptized babies, he believed that communion was more than a memorial and he didn’t exactly have nice things to say about the Christians who refused to baptize babies. In fact, why do they always praise Luther? Have you read what he believed about baptism and the lords supper? I am so over all these men quoting, adoring, etc all the giants of the reformation who would have probably had extremely nasty, uncharitable things to say about these baptist and revivalist presbyterians. The presbyterians could have stayed around but the baptist probably would have been drowned.
    Deb or Dee check out RC Sprouls conference for next year to celebrate the 500 year anniversary of Martin Luther (not a Calvinist) starting the reformation. I laughed a lot when I realized no one was speaking at his conference from the tradition that bears Luther’s name, you know the heirs of Luther and his rediscovery of the Gospel. Nope, just a ton of “Reformed” Baptist and Presbyterians. I had a pretty good laugh at that. Mainly because Luther called all the people who would not baptize babies “enthusiasts” and I think he said they were of the devil. So, I guess Luther just out 9marxed 9 marx.

    Carl Trueman said something similar.

    https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2016/09/remembering-the-reformation-but-celebrating-what


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    We had a young pastor at a Baptist church that we went to for several years, that was a lot like TT. His father was a minister, and he wanted to be just like his dad. He was nice looking, and I guess. He had an affair, and fathered a child by this woman. He also liked to huge the young girls with his arm around them near their breasts. My daughter, who was a young teenager at this time, didn’t like this at all. His wife could hardly stand to be in the church service to hear him preach. She often made excuses to come to the church nursery, where I volunteered a lot in, to check on their own young baby. Finally the church asked for his resignation as all this was coming about. I had no idea this was happening. i know the pastor and his wife divorced. She remarried a few years later. I don’t know what became of him. I know he is no longer a pastor. but then he never should have been one in the first place.


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    We sat with our friends along with others and explained that TT is part of the Calvinista (hyper Calvinist movement)

    Dee, this may be a nitpick, but unless these guys adhere to double predestination and generally eschew evangelization, they’re technically not hyper Calvinists. I’ve even heard that the term neocalvinist is wrong, as that describes guys like Abraham Kuyper. They’re usually referred to as New Calvinists, or the YRR, to be distinguished from the confessional types. I suspect Tullian is not fully confessional, given his affinity with Lutheranism.


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    Carl Trueman said something similar.
    https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2016/09/remembering-the-reformation-but-celebrating-what

    NJ, what a brilliant article! I think Carl Truman (whom I greatly respect) is 100% accurate. Also notice he calls himself Reformed not a Calvinist. I think that is another way to identify a New Calvinist. The New Calvinist cherry picks Calvin quotes but the Reformed or old school Presbyterians confess the ancient creeds and have confessions that come from their church body not just a few things Calvin said.


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    Robin C wrote:

    The New Calvinist cherry picks Calvin quotes but the Reformed or old school Presbyterians confess the ancient creeds and have confessions that come from their church body not just a few things Calvin said.

    I think most TWW commenters would agree; we do not have a problem with classical Calvinism. It’s not the “Old” Calvinists we are worried about; they are harmless enough and civil in their discourse about their beliefs. But, the aberrations of “New” Calvinism are cause for great concern.


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    “The wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous” (Prov 13:22).

    I wonder if SBC’s non-Calvinists are considered lost (damned, not elected) since they don’t conform to the tenets of Calvinism? And, therefore, their stuff is up for grabs by the New Calvinist righteous who are taking over SBC churches by stealth and deception! The YRR probably feel they justify such behavior if the wealth in a church full of non-elect has been stored up for them for such a time as this.


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    Robin C wrote:

    Also notice he calls himself Reformed not a Calvinist. I think that is another way to identify a New Calvinist. The New Calvinist cherry picks Calvin quotes but the Reformed or old school Presbyterians confess the ancient creeds and have confessions that come from their church body not just a few things Calvin said.

    I don’t think the YRR leaders belief half the stuff they preach. I think it’s just an effective way to grab impressionable young Christian men and turn them into followers. Offer them ownership of women and children, and the promise of maybe being rich and famous at the top of the ladder one day.

    I think they might have convinced themselves that men should own women, but I don’t think they really believe the Bible much at all, since they ignore large portions of it. I’m think many of these guys have massive ego problems, and sadly, Christians are a gullible lot to feed those egos.


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    Max wrote:

    I wonder if SBC’s non-Calvinists are considered lost (damned, not elected) since they don’t conform to the tenets of Calvinism?

    Most do. There’s a few that tend more toward classical Calvinism, but the majority of covenants I’ve looked at rest salvation on membership in their church.


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    Max wrote:

    I think most TWW commenters would agree; we do not have a problem with classical Calvinism. It’s not the “Old” Calvinists we are worried about; they are harmless enough and civil in their discourse about their beliefs. But, the aberrations of “New” Calvinism are cause for great concern.

    I’ll second the motion Max. I know a guy here in my area who is an old style Calvinist. He’s a kind and good man and I’ll vouch for him any day. I don’t care if he believes in a flying spaghetti monster who demands that his adherents only use Ragu and never Prego.


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    Harley wrote:

    I know he is no longer a pastor. but then he never should have been one in the first place.

    In a few years, we will be saying that about a lot of YRR “pastors.” They don’t have what it takes for the long run. After their hype is exhausted and their cool hairdos become dated, they will fade into obscurity … unless they re-invent themselves (like Driscoll) and find more gullible followers to prop them up.


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    Forrest wrote:

    Max wrote:
    New Calvinism is plagued with arrogance.
    One could almost say that this along with its cousin pride is a defining characteristic of New Calvinism.

    And we know what the bible says about pride…

    There is an awful lot of destruction out there, but it seems more of it pertains to the pewpeons, friends, and family of the perps than the perps themselves.


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    Max wrote:

    I think most TWW commenters would agree; we do not have a problem with classical Calvinism. It’s not the “Old” Calvinists we are worried about; they are harmless enough and civil in their discourse about their beliefs. But, the aberrations of “New” Calvinism are cause for great concern.

    I’m not sure I understand. Doesn’t “classical” Calvinism teach the same things as today’s Calvinism, at least the essentials that are currently labeled “TULIP”? That’s too horrifying for me to contemplate or excuse, regardless of how nice its adherents may be. It’s too… difficult isn’t a strong-enough word… The thought of eternal torture is unbearable to consider. Add to that the concept of a sovereign God’s intentionally not allowing some to choose saving faith, and it’s beyond… I can’t even articulate what I need to say.


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    Debi Calvet wrote:

    Add to that the concept of a sovereign God’s intentionally not allowing some to choose saving faith, and it’s beyond…

    I think this part is maybe more ‘double predestination’? And I hate total depravity as it is pushed by these guys, but at my church it was defined more as ‘all have sinned’. Which everybody sort of believes. So there does seem to be a matter of degree, and balance, that makes the practical implications of the theology not what how they are represented in the new crowd. I’m probably not explaining it right, because I’m still learning all this stuff.

    There is a concept called ‘cage stage’ calvinism, and it was a very useful concept for me because it may explain the differences between old and new school. I think there’s a separate element though, the authoritarian, comp, and in tullian’s case “i am incapable of being good so I can do what I want because grace’. That’s not how the old school crowd look at it.