Update on LaVonne Pfeil: The Little Old Lady Who Was Lied About and Thrown Out of Her Church

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― Adolf Hitler link

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One year ago, we wrote Woman Excommunicated from Lutheran Church Takes Legal Action. According to LaVonne, this all happened because of coffee grounds.

She said the case likely started in a church kitchen during a 2010 funeral when someone started swearing because coffee grounds got into the coffee. She was blamed for the obscenities but insists it wasn’t her. 

The following is an excerpt from our post.


Henry and LaVonne Pfeil, an elderly couple in Minnesota who were members of St. Matthew Lutheran Church were given the left boot of fellowship several years ago. This excerpt from a recent Star Tribune article caught our attention:

Since she was excommunicated from her Lutheran church four years ago, LaVonne Pfeil says that her life has been ruined.

“I lost my church, I lost my husband, lost my reputation, lost a lot of money,” said Pfeil, who’s 79 years old. “I can go to a grocery store. If people see me, they turn around with their cart. I used to know everybody. Now I have no friends.”

Here is some background information that will help explain the above commentary:

The conflict between the Pfeils and the pastors escalated. The church accused the Pfeils of slandering and trying to discredit the pastors, court records show. Then, in August 2011, the Pfeils were excommunicated.

The discipline that ultimately was undertaken was done so reluctantly and after many different attempts to discuss the matter with the Pfeils, and after many, many attempts at reconciliation,” the pastors said in their statement to the Star Tribune.

The following month, 89 members of the church gathered to rule on the action. At the meeting, Braun read the charges: the Pfeils slandered him and other church leaders, and gossiped about them. They engaged in sinful behavior and prompted others to do so. They refused to repent, leaving the church no alternative to kicking them out.

Pfeil and her family denied all of those accusations, and asked for details on what was said and who said it. They were told such information was confidential. [Emphasis added]

They had a chance to appeal the excommunication in March 2012 before a panel of the synod. “During this hearing, Pastor Behnke alleged that the Pfeils had recently accused him of stealing money from St. Matthew,” according to court records. The synod panel upheld the discipline.

Her husband was devastated, and never recovered from the blow, Pfeil said. She said Henry made it clear he wanted to seek justice in a secular court. Their suit, filed in Nobles County, alleged the pastors and the church had defamed them, not the other way around. So far, they have lost at the district court and court of appeals, both of which cited a 1993 case in ruling that the courts had no authority to rule on questions of sin, Christian doctrine and other ecclesiastical matters.

As the quotation at the top of the post indicates, Lavonne Pfeil has appealed her case all the way up the the Minnesota Supreme Court, which has agreed to hear her argument.  We will follow this story and let you know the final ruling.


Update: LaVonne lost her case but the decision was close. According to Minnesota Litigator:

 In a 3-2 decision in the case of Pfeil v. St. Mathew, the Minnesota Supreme Court, by affirming the dismissal of parishioners’ claims, appears to have declared open season in Minnesota for reckless, harmful, defamatory statements made in “formal church discipline proceedings.” As dissenter Justice Lillehaug warned (joined in dissent by Chief Judge Gildea), “[n]o matter how false and malicious the statement, and no matter how much the victim is damaged, there is no remedy whatsoever in Minnesota’s courts [for false and malicious statements made in formal church discipline proceedings].”

The majority of the Minnesota Supreme Court conceded that the dissenters’ concerns “have merit.” But the Court majority’s concern about our civil justice system getting entangled in what are religious issues trumped those concerns.

The Court believed that LaVonne's case had merit but was reluctant to get involved in a religious matter. In other words, the church leaders acted like jerks but they were religious jerks and that got them off the hook. How gospelly of them!

The post goes on to raise an excellent question. Does this decision mean that churches make can make unsubstantiated claims about church members and get away with it because they are a religious institution?

So, when a church member stands up in a “formal church discipline proceeding” and says, “John Doe raped a child…,” and John Doe (1) did no such thing; and (2) suffers terribly, financially and otherwise, from the intentional and vicious defamation, would his ensuing defamation lawsuit be “entangled” with religious doctrine? Would Doe be able to sue the defamer on those facts? Or would the Pfeil decision bar such a claim?

It appears that this decision allows a church to slander, etc. without proof so long as it is done within a church setting.

 St. Matthew excommunicated the Pfeils, having concluded they were guilty of “slander, gossip, and speaking against [Pastor Braun, Pastor Braun’s wife, St. Matthew, and Pastor Behnke],” to choose just a few 

Here is a list of the so called *sins* of the Pfeils which were included in a letter to the church members.

  • Other people had observed the Pfeils display anger and disrespect toward Braun.
  • The Pfeils had publicly engaged in “sinful behavior” inside and outside St.Matthew.
  • The Pfeils had engaged in behavior unbecoming of a Christian.
  • The Pfeils had engaged in a “public display of sin.”
  • The Pfeils had refused to meet for the purpose of confession and forgiveness.
  • The Pfeils had “refused to show respect” toward servants of God and St. Matthew church leadership.
  • The Pfeils had led other people into sin.
  • The Pfeils had engaged in slander and gossip and had refused to stop engaging in slander and gossip.
  • The Pfeils had refused to follow the commands and teachings of God’s word.

The pastors all get out of Dodge before the trial.

You can refer back to our original post which noted that:

What we find particularly interesting is that two pastors in conflict with the Pfeils, namely, Tom Braunand Joe Behnke, are no longer at the church.

Folks, be very, very careful when joining a church.

If this decision is upheld (and I believe it will be challenged in other states) churches can lie about you, spread rumors about you, etc. and you have no recourse. Be very careful about joining a church. Oh, and never, ever sign a membership covenant. No wonder more and more people are *done* with the church.

Comments

Update on LaVonne Pfeil: The Little Old Lady Who Was Lied About and Thrown Out of Her Church — 153 Comments

  1. Coffee Grounds??

    Half of those ‘sins’ are along the lines not deferring to the pastor. Worrisome.

  2. Glad to hear the update.

    I was so alarmed for this widow when I first heard this case that I contacted other denominations in the area and asked them to visit this widow, help her.

  3. Lea wrote:

    Coffee Grounds??
    Half of those ‘sins’ are along the lines not deferring to the pastor. Worrisome.

    My ex elders had a meeting about my bbq beef brisket. The tacky chairman of the elder board called me on behalf of all of the pastors/elders that I had been *too lavish* in bringing 10 pounds of brisket to the fellowship meal, which by the way disappeared in record time. So much for a civil thank you.

  4. Whew, it appears that Lutherans in Minnesota are run through the wringer! In another sad account of church policy gone bad, an 84 year old woman in New Germany, Minnesota who was not allowed to be buried next to her husband in the St. Mark’s Lutheran Church cemetery because she had decided to withdraw her membership from the church! By “self-excluding” herself from taking communion 4X per year at the church, she lost that membership benefit!

    I’m sure St. Mark and St. Matthew would not have approved of the treatment of these old folks by churches which bear their names. Come, Lord Jesus!

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/02/church-reportedly-tells-84-year-old-woman-cant-be-buried-next-to-husband.html

  5. Alarming.

    The Bible does not allow for anonymous witnesses. Interesting to find that Lutherans do.

    The fact that the court found that the case had merit is a win for LaVonne even if they ruled that they couldn’t get involved in church matters.

    That is frightening for a person who finds themselves on the wrong end of a controlling pastor.

  6. Abi Miah wrote:

    The Bible does not allow for anonymous witnesses.

    That is pretty crazy. Probably the ‘witnesses’ are either non-existent or the pastors themselves.

  7. Velour wrote:

    The tacky chairman of the elder board called me on behalf of all of the pastors/elders that I had been *too lavish* in bringing 10 pounds of brisket to the fellowship meal

    I could suggest that you take 10 pounds of something else to the next elders meeting, but would be barred from TWW for doing so.

  8. Well, it wasn’t one of the Usual Suspects, so there’s that. Scoundrels will always hide behind the protections or rights given to others, and ISTM that these pastors were unable to just ignore stuff they didn’t like and pushed the red button way before it was necessary. Church people just do not know how to handle excommunicated members or what to say or not say, and it is sad that they are avoiding her. Not familiar at all with Lutheran culture, so maybe Numo can enlighten me on this situation.

  9. Since she was excommunicated from her Lutheran church four years ago, LaVonne Pfeil says that her life has been ruined.

    “I lost my church, I lost my husband, lost my reputation, lost a lot of money,” said Pfeil, who’s 79 years old. “I can go to a grocery store. If people see me, they turn around with their cart. I used to know everybody. Now I have no friends.”

    And this is why I disagreed with Ed, in the last post, that pastors do have power over parishioners. Whether the Bible grants them this power or not, these pastors did have the power to ruin these peoples’ lives. That is reality.

    I can see, in a sense, why the court had a hard time with this- none of the charges against the Pfeils are even specified in that letter- “sin” “slander” “gossip” sheesh. They didn’t bow and kiss the pastors’ rings is what it really sounds like. And these vague and silly statements were enough to turn their whole church against them!

    Causing people to be shunned is a vicious, cruel, soul destroying display of power. The people who have gone along with this ought to be ashamed of themselves (and I believe that they will be ashamed when they stand before the Lord).

  10. siteseer wrote:

    And this is why I disagreed with Ed, in the last post, that pastors do have power over parishioners.

    Yep-and we write about this all the time at TWW.

  11. siteseer wrote:

    Causing people to be shunned is a vicious, cruel, soul destroying display of power.

    Schoolyard bullies; the “church” is the schoolyard.

  12. Velour wrote:

    I had been *too lavish* in bringing 10 pounds of brisket to the fellowship meal

    On a more serious note than my last comment, perhaps the church pastor and elders are not familiar with the following Scripture:

    “A woman came to Jesus with an alabaster vial of very expensive perfume and she poured it on Jesus’ head as He reclined at the table. But when the disciples saw it they were indignant and angry, saying, “Why all this waste of money?” (Matthew 26)

  13. dee wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    And this is why I disagreed with Ed, in the last post, that pastors do have power over parishioners.
    Yep-and we write about this all the time at TWW.

    “What is an overseer in the Bible?
    The noun episkopos [ejpivskopo”] appears five times in the New Testament and means overseer, guardian, bishop. It is used in reference to Jesus Christ in 1 Peter 2:25 and in other places of individuals who have a function of leadership in the church ( Acts 20:28 ; Php 1:1 ; 1 Tim 3:2 ; Titus 1:7 ).” – Baker’s Bible Dictionary

  14. The majority of the Minnesota Supreme Court conceded that the dissenters’ concerns “have merit.” But the Court majority’s concern about our civil justice system getting entangled in what are religious issues trumped those concerns.

    The justices probably thought back to their first day of Constitutional law and the list of things that American courts aren’t supposed to touch with a ten-foot pole. And courts pretty much try to stay away from anything involving religious dogma.

    I’m most familiar with the case of Luis and Rocio Garcia, who sued Scientology to get back their donations “on account.” Without getting into the ins and outs of their case, I would just say that a federal judge in Florida ordered the Garcias to go through Scientology mediation, even though the Garcias are considered enemies of the “church” and their only contact is the International Justice Chief, who won’t talk to them. It’s a Kafkaesque nightmare. Here’s the latest (from August), just to show that it’s not just Lutheran churches.

    http://tonyortega.org/2016/08/06/so-much-for-all-that-attempt-by-garcias-to-revive-scientology-lawsuit-shot-down-by-judge/

    Moral of this story: SIGN NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.

  15. It is an LCMS church. So, this does not completely shock me. Of the Lutheran flavors, they strike me as analogous to the PCA in doctrine/conservatism. They do NOT ordain women as I am aware. I know good pastors in both demoninations–LCMS and PCA. They both just strike me as too rigid for my taste. This story doesn’t change that assessment for me.

  16. Max wrote:

    I could suggest that you take 10 pounds of something else to the next elders meeting, but would be barred from TWW for doing so.

    No you wouldn’t!

  17. Bridget wrote:

    No you wouldn’t!

    Well, if this stuff keeps happening in places claiming to be Christian, there’s no telling what I might do! You might find me pointing a finger in the face of an ungodly preacher and shouting “Thou art the man!”, slinging a whip, and/or turning money tables over! I was young and now I’m old, and I ain’t seen nothin’ like this! Good Lord, when will this madness end?!

  18. The “list of so called sins” is a self documenting case of the pastors engaging in gossip. It is merely a list of anonymous and unsubstantiated gossip designed with one purpose, the deliberate destruction of the Pfeils’ reputation. This is the very definition of gossip.

    One caveat, because it is a pastor the rules change. It cannot be called gossip when a pastor does it, not in the upside down world of institutional churchianity.

  19. Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    The tacky chairman of the elder board called me on behalf of all of the pastors/elders that I had been *too lavish* in bringing 10 pounds of brisket to the fellowship meal

    I could suggest that you take 10 pounds of something else to the next elders meeting, but would be barred from TWW for doing so.

    My ex-pastors/elders already had enough poundage from the back end of the beef.

    I just needed fire hose or a match to clean up their mess.

  20. Gram3 wrote:

    Church people just do not know how to handle excommunicated members or what to say or not say, and it is sad that they are avoiding her.

    Because excommunication/shunning is contagious?

  21. Max wrote:

    Good Lord, when will this madness end?!

    “IN FIRE.”
    — Vorlon Ambassador Kosh, Babylon-5

  22. so, i would guess that LaVonne and Henry Pfeil had gone to St. Matthew Lutheran Church for many years. Tom Braun came on the scene in 2009, Joe Behnke in 2010.

    These 2 men show up to an existing church – a living organism, they destroy the lives of some of its members, then after a relative short time they move on.

    this is so screwed up.

  23. There are 2 sides to every story. I’ve always thought the Lutherans were a pretty level headed bunch but I’m having serious issues with their credibility on this one.

    And no court will save you. I just finished reading a book about The People’s Temple (yeah, that People’s Temple). The courts had a hard time getting traction with them vis a vis custody hearings and the like between those in the cult and those who had left.

    I also heard the IRS got it handed to them by Scientology at some point.

    It is so unsafe to be in any religion right now. It is unlikely I will ever consider joining one.

    Stay secular, my friends.

  24. Tom Braun and Joe Behnke, why did you destroy the lives of 2 elderly people? Please come and explain yourselves.

  25. I was a member of a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church for ten years. My close friend was “released” (excommunicated) when she had to separate from her abusive husband. The tuition reimbursement for her children attending Lutheran schools was rescinded, and she had to repay thousands of dollars or else face collection proceedings. Her husband never had to pay a dime in tuition, and is still a member in good standing even though he still refuses to pay child support. I was so upset that I also left the church, and did not attend any church for several years. It took a long time for me to be able to enter a church without my heart pounding.

    Now I have been attending an Episcopal church that I like. This month the church is holding their annual classes which you have to attend to join the church, and I was thinking of joining the church until I read that you need a letter of transfer from your previous church. It was not clear if this rule is just for other Episcopal churches or all churches. My abusive ex-Lutheran church also required a letter of transfer, and suddenly I lost all interest in joining the church. I do not think I will ever be able to go through with joining another church, because of my anxiety.

  26. @ Jack:

    “It is so unsafe to be in any religion right now. It is unlikely I will ever consider joining one.”
    ++++++++++

    religion schmeligion. you can explore God or any spiritual tradition minus the institution. i daresay God is as available as air.

    i have my doubts about Ganesha, but i can say from first-hand experience that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob / Jesus / Holy Spirit is/are as available as air.

  27. elastigirl wrote:

    Tom Braun and Joe Behnke, why did you destroy the lives of 2 elderly people? Please come and explain yourselves.

    Tom Braun, pastor
    rollstpeter@gmail.com
    507-519-1204

    Pastor Tom Braun, an evangelist, loves connecting people to Jesus. His favorite Bible verse is Romans 1:16 “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes.”

    He is the church planter/pastor for this new congregation, River of LIFE Lutheran Church, Saint Peter, Minnesota–a church plant of Our Savior Lutheran Church, Mankato, and the Minnesota South District.

    Tom has served as pastor at two other mission congregations: Christ Victorious, Chaska, MN and Family of Christ, Andover (now Ham Lake), MN. He also served the dual parishes of St. John and Peace Lutheran Churches in Claremont, MN and St. Matthew Lutheran Church, Worthington, MN.

    Pastor Braun and his wife, Colleen, reside in St. Peter. They have two adult children: Darren and his wife, Amy, and Curtis and his wife, Laura.

  28. These abstention from religious procedures are tough cases.

    I have read all of them, but my sense is that if the church makes decisions regarding doctrine, the application of doctrine, church procedure and polity, and questions related to behavior that involve judgment about whether the behavior is fitting for members or consistent with church doctrine, and it all occurs within the walls of the church, the courts are very likely to abstain.

    But if the church were to make a general charge about a person, e.g. The person has AIDS, the person is a murderer, a prostitute etc., totally unrelated to church procedure and process, I suspect that the courts would intervene.

    Also, I would think the the individuals who lied (not the church or its leaders) would not be protected from false statements. The person who was wronged should be able to find out who that is and sue them directly. If the church won’t say, ask the court for an order compelling that information.

  29. Abi Miah wrote:

    Alarming.
    The Bible does not allow for anonymous witnesses. Interesting to find that Lutherans do.

    Nor does our legal system in the U.S. You have a right to confront your accuser in criminal matters, right there in the Sixth.

  30. Divorce Minister wrote:

    It is an LCMS church. So, this does not completely shock me. Of the Lutheran flavors, they strike me as analogous to the PCA in doctrine/conservatism. They do NOT ordain women as I am aware. I know good pastors in both demoninations–LCMS and PCA. They both just strike me as too rigid for my taste. This story doesn’t change that assessment for me.

    I’ve been a Lutheran and have a family friend who’s a LCMS pastor, it’s a mixed bag, you’ll get all types, from gentle, aging hippies, like the family friend, to smug self-lovers/God haters.

  31. siteseer wrote:

    And this is why I disagreed with Ed, in the last post, that pastors do have power over parishioners.

    Who in the world is Ed who thinks pastors have power over parishioners? If he does, he doesn’t care about the Bible much, because the word “pastor” is hardly even mentioned in the New Testament, and when it is, there’s absolutely no description of what powers a pastor may or may not have, least of all power over the lives of others.

    The only “power” positions mentioned are elders, and they have NO POWER TO COMPEL ANYONE TO DO A THING, otherwise I Peter 5:3 is a load of garbage and must have been some later interpolation of some rebellious scribe.

  32. Teri Anne wrote:

    …suddenly I lost all interest in joining the church. I do not think I will ever be able to go through with joining another church, because of my anxiety.

    If you love Jesus and believe in Him, you are a member of the only church that counts, and no one can take that membership away from you, just as no human institution can bestow it to you.

  33. Law Prof wrote:

    Who in the world is Ed who thinks pastors have power over parishioners?

    Actually you misunderstand Siteseer. Ed does not think pastors have power over parishioners. He made that clear on the other thread. What Siteseer is saying is that he/she believes they do have power because that is the reality of how the current church institutions function.

    I think they should not, but the reality is that many parishioners believe they do because this what pastors/elders teach them.

  34. Don’t drink the coffee at church particularly if it’s on a well with the cemetary just out back. I too have sworn after taking a drink of coffee from an aluminum huge coffee pot that has never truly been cleaned.

    Seriously LCMS is a dying denomination. They don’t vet their deacons/vicars those striving to become pastors. A local district had to dismiss 18 ministers in one year because of alcoholism/wife and child abuse etc. The local church planting minister, hoping to make the big bucks one day, left his wife (they didn’t know he had been married 4 times before that) and ran off with the Jewish Vets wife. I think he has the sponsorship of an Assembly of God rascal for starting a church somewhere else now.

    I know this sounds like a British English comedy show but thinking of how many are hurt and wounded by wolves in Christs church it is really terrible.

  35. Jack wrote:

    I also heard the IRS got it handed to them by Scientology at some point.

    Yes, the IRS made a deal with Scientology in 1993 and gave Scientology a special secret tax deduction for courses to boot. This after a couple thousand Scientologists filed suits in practically every federal court district in the USA.

  36. Teri Anne wrote:

    until I read that you need a letter of transfer from your previous church. It was not clear if this rule is just for other Episcopal churches or all churches.

    My initial guess is it is to avoid double counting. Remember that a fair number of former Roman Catholics have joined the Episcopal Church and certainly aren’t getting letters from their former church.

    I note one Episcopal church has posted a helpful FAQ and states that the letter of transfer is only asked for when changing within the Episcopal church. Even if you are joining from another Anglican Communion church or one in communion with it (e.g., the ELCA) you don’t need the letter.
    http://www.stjamesnl.org/article357947c8496378.htm

  37. This is a Missouri Synod Lutheran church, as others have noted. They are quite conservative. They do not ordain women and have a definite complementarianist belief structure.

    One of the distinctives of Missouri Synod over many other less conservative Lutheran denominations is their strong insistence on ‘closed’ Communion.

    Generally this means you cannot receive Communion unless you are a member; I have been in Missouri Synod churches where men stood at the end of the aisle to ‘vet’ people as they were in line to step up to the communion rail. I have seen people not be allowed up to the altar rail.

    I think they are, for this and other reasons, much quicker to exclude and excommunicate than most other Lutheran denominations.

  38. Molly245 wrote:

    I have been in Missouri Synod churches where men stood at the end of the aisle to ‘vet’ people as they were in line to step up to the communion rail. I have seen people not be allowed up to the altar rail.

    All I can say is there are going to be a lot of pastors/elders, deacons, and other church members who are going to be in a world of trouble with the Lord when they meet up with Him.

  39. Law Prof wrote:

    Who in the world is Ed who thinks pastors have power over parishioners?

    Actually, he argued the opposite. This was from the discussion on the article on clergy sex abuse on 10/3. The article pointed out that there is a power differential between pastor and parishioner. Ed refused to believe such a thing (I think that is what he was saying) because the Bible doesn’t give pastors legitimate authority over people. I was speaking of the fact that regardless of that, there is a power differential and it can be abused.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/10/03/its-clergy-sex-abuse-not-an-affair/#comment-287050

  40. dee wrote:

    Max wrote:

    but would be barred from TWW for doing so.

    Maybe not-I happen to agree!

    I had some ideas on that front myself…

  41. The Church, of course, because it knows God’s Truth, has the right to tell the rest of society how to live and act. And the Church, of course, because it is a voluntary religious organization, is exempt from any legal obligation regarding how it disciplines its own members.

    Sweet deal, that.

  42. Max wrote:

    I could suggest that you take 10 pounds of something else to the next elders meeting, but would be barred from TWW for doing so.

    TNT?

  43. Law Prof wrote:

    Who … thinks pastors have power over parishioners? … the word “pastor” is hardly even mentioned in the New Testament, and when it is, there’s absolutely no description of what powers a pastor may or may not have, least of all power over the lives of others.

    I’m kind of echoing what others have already said, but my response to this is: I know what you mean, but there’s more than one kind of power.

    When Lesley and I were excommunicated from what was then Covenant Life Glasgow, the CEO (“pastor” if you like; though his own preferred title was “apostle”) made a number of allegations against us: in particular, that we were divisive. It’s possible he made some kind of move to hand us over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme. If so, it didn’t work. For around 10 years we had toiled in the church, serving, tithing and giving; and through all that time I could hardly even buy a job. I stacked shelves and “sold” insurance for rock-bottom wages while my many job applications came to nothing and my Cambridge degree rotted in the cupboard. When we left, it was as though a dam burst: blessings and open doors exploded into our lives from every direction.

    Except one, of course. None of our previous friends still under the CEO’s corporate authority would have anything to do with us.

    So: the “apostle” had no biblical rights or spiritual power over us unless we gave it to him. He couldn’t stop God answering our prayers. But he did have corporate power against us – put another way, he had the power that others still gave him. And the logic of his position demand that he use it as far as he possibly could; he had to make an example of us because, at root, we’d attempted to hold him accountable and he’d spent years patiently building an organisation in which he could sit at the very apex.

  44. Divorce Minister wrote:

    It is an LCMS church. So, this does not completely shock me. Of the Lutheran flavors, they strike me as analogous to the PCA in doctrine/conservatism. They do NOT ordain women as I am aware. I know good pastors in both demoninations–LCMS and PCA. They both just strike me as too rigid for my taste. This story doesn’t change that assessment for me.

    As someone else said, LCMS runs the gamut. The church I went to growing up, and the one I went to recently, were not like that. It’s much like the SBC before 2000, with a wide range of beliefs.

    Now, the Wisconsin synod excommunicated my grandfather because he didn’t come pay his tithe while he was dying in the hospital. And they seem very close in ideology to the TGC’ers in many ways, though they would be horrified to admit it. Very patriarchal.

  45. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    Who … thinks pastors have power over parishioners? … the word “pastor” is hardly even mentioned in the New Testament, and when it is, there’s absolutely no description of what powers a pastor may or may not have, least of all power over the lives of others.

    I’m kind of echoing what others have already said, but my response to this is: I know what you mean, but there’s more than one kind of power.

  46. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    Who … thinks pastors have power over parishioners? … the word “pastor” is hardly even mentioned in the New Testament, and when it is, there’s absolutely no description of what powers a pastor may or may not have, least of all power over the lives of others.

    I’m kind of echoing what others have already said, but my response to this is: I know what you mean, but there’s more than one kind of power.

    There IS in the sacred Scriptures some teaching about the way a pastor is to care for his flock. St. Ambrose referred to those Scriptures in his advice to those who were called to offer ministry to those in need of Christ:

    “”“For he who endeavours to amend the faults of human weakness ought to bear this very weakness on his own shoulders, let it weigh upon himself, not cast it off.
    For we read that the Shepherd in the Gospel (Luke 15:5) carried the weary sheep, and did not cast it off.

    And Solomon says: “Be not overmuch righteous;” (Ecclesiastes 7:17) for restraint should temper righteousness.
    For how shall he offer himself to you for healing whom you despise, who thinks that he will be an object of contempt, not of compassion, to his physician?

    Therefore had the Lord Jesus compassion upon us in order to call us to Himself, not frighten us away. He came in meekness, He came in humility, and so He said:
    “Come unto Me, all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will refresh you.” (Matthew 11:28)
    So, then, the Lord Jesus refreshes, and does not shut out nor cast off, and fitly chose such disciples as should be interpreters of the Lord’s will, as should gather together and not drive away the people of God.

    Whence it is clear that they are not to be counted among the disciples of Christ, who think that harsh and proud opinions should be followed rather than such as are gentle and meek;
    persons who, while they themselves seek God’s mercy, deny it to others . . .”

    St. Ambrose (340-379 A.D.),
    a Father and Doctor of the Church

  47. Christiane wrote:

    There IS in the sacred Scriptures some teaching about the way a pastor is to care for his flock.

    Indeed; a point that’s often explored here. The scriptures whereof you spake, and many others besides, should temper the attitudes of anyone who a) exercises any form of responsible oversight among Jesus’ followers, and b) has even the slightest fear of, or respect for, God.

    The word “shepherd” (or “pastor” as it is occasionally pseudo-translated) is surprisingly difficult to apply to an individual other than Jesus in the NT. Occasionally, overseers (noun) are asked to shepherd (verb) the flock (not their flock) and Ephesians 4 refers to shepherds and teachers. But perhaps the first thing anyone with any sense of calling among God’s people must remember is that he himself is also a sheep. It’s not one rule for him, and another for everyone else. Put another way, it’s not the case that he’s the only person who can bend the required standards – on the contrary, he’s the one person who cannot.

  48. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    So: the “apostle” had no biblical rights or spiritual power over us unless we gave it to him. He couldn’t stop God answering our prayers. But he did have corporate power against us – put another way, he had the power that others still gave him. And the logic of his position demand that he use it as far as he possibly could; he had to make an example of us because, at root, we’d attempted to hold him accountable and he’d spent years patiently building an organisation in which he could sit at the very apex.

    Thus is such an important point. Worth repeating.

  49. A question that keeps coming up to me about many of the things here on TWW is “What is the rest of the congregation doing about this?” The article said those pastors are no longer even employed there. But did anyone in the congregation stand up against them while this was going on? Has anyone tried to reach out to them since?

    Clearly, many went along with the shunning.

    I think one reason many of these things have been happening is that Christians stand idly by and let them happen. I bet in many of these abuse cases there were warning signs, and Christians didn’t heed them or were afraid to say anything.

    I guess I’m wondering if is there anything that can be done to teach Christians to follow the guiding of the Holy Spirit? How can we reduce codependence and following and help people to search the Scriptures and listen to God?

  50. Anonymous wrote:

    But if the church were to make a general charge about a person, e.g. The person has AIDS, the person is a murderer, a prostitute etc., totally unrelated to church procedure and process, I suspect that the courts would intervene.

    The typical statements are “mentally unbalanced or emotionally unstable”. These sorts of statements are trickier to track down but I have had a few junkyard lawyers say that going after the source of such is a better bet, legally, than the church.

  51. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The word “shepherd” (or “pastor” as it is occasionally pseudo-translated) is surprisingly difficult to apply to an individual other than Jesus in the NT.

    Another great point!

  52. ishy wrote:

    I think one reason many of these things have been happening is that Christians stand idly by and let them happen. I bet in many of these abuse cases there were warning signs, and Christians didn’t heed them or were afraid to say anything.

    IF you say anything, you’re next on the list. Then you enter the same dynamic of a brutal beating or rape happening in front of bystanders – sometimes everyone freezes, sometimes one person jumps in and gets beaten themselves, and sometimes one or two jump in and the rest follow. But someone generally has to have the courage to move first I think. And then someone has to follow that person or nothing happens.

    In the case in Memphis (I forget which church) they kicked out the doctor who said she thought the preacher was a narcissist. Then her friend tried to write a letter and take a stand about it, and she got kicked off the worship team. So two and in a church maybe even a biggish group, like at Tullian’s old church, won’t do it. You need the whole body.

  53. ishy wrote:

    Now, the Wisconsin synod excommunicated my grandfather because he didn’t come pay his tithe while he was dying in the hospital.

    Hateful.

  54. ishy wrote:

    A question that keeps coming up to me about many of the things here on TWW is “What is the rest of the congregation doing about this?”

    I know that in my former NeoCalvinist, 9 Marxist, John MacArthur-ite church the pastors/elders blind-sided church members with either formal excommunication/shunning meetings of some dear sweet saint on a Sunday after the church service, controlling the narrative, and telling anyone who asked questions to “obey your elders in all things” that these authoritarian church leaders seem to control everything by ‘divide and conquer’.
    It took me seeing enough godly people leave the church to never be heard from again, seeing enough bad things happen to people I loved, that I began to see the pattern.

    I think Dr. Ron Enroth’s books are helpful and are available for FREE online.
    Churches that Abuse. Recovering from Churches That Abuse. Dr. Enroth points out that
    that abusive churches are all pretty much the same.

  55. Law Prof wrote:

    Teri Anne wrote:

    If you love Jesus and believe in Him, you are a member of the only church that counts, and no one can take that membership away from you, just as no human institution can bestow it to you.

    Beautifully stated. No man gave me this salvation, no man can take it away.

  56. Teri Anne wrote:

    I was a member of a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church for ten years. My close friend was “released” (excommunicated) when she had to separate from her abusive husband. The tuition reimbursement for her children attending Lutheran schools was rescinded, and she had to repay thousands of dollars or else face collection proceedings. Her husband never had to pay a dime in tuition, and is still a member in good standing even though he still refuses to pay child support. I was so upset that I also left the church, and did not attend any church for several years. It took a long time for me to be able to enter a church without my heart pounding.

    A dear Christian woman is about to be excommunicated from John Piper’s church for leaving an abusive marriage.

    This is so disturbing what is being done to domestic violence victims and their children. Violent men are being enabled.

  57. This seems appropriate to post again as so many churches are practicing Thought Reform techniques and cultic practices. Information below is from psychologist/author/Thought Reform and Cult expert Steve Hassan.

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
    “Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Cult Mind Control
    Many people think of mind control as an ambiguous, mystical process that cannot be defined in concrete terms. In reality, mind control refers to a specific set of methods and techniques, such as hypnosis or thought- stopping, that influence how a person thinks, feels, and acts. Like many bodies of knowledge, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for his life remains within himself, the effects can be beneficial. For example, benevolent mind control can be used to help people quit smoking without affecting any other behavior. Mind control becomes destructive when the locus of control is external and it is used to undermine a person’s ability to think and act independently.

    As employed by the most destructive cults, mind control seeks nothing less than to disrupt an individual’s authentic identity and reconstruct it in the image of the cult leader. I developed the BITE model to help people determine whether or not a group is practicing destructive mind control. The BITE model helps people understand how cults suppress individual member’s uniqueness and creativity. BITE stands for the cult’s control of an individual’s Behavior, Intellect, Thoughts, and Emotions.

    It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present. Mindcontrolled cult members can live in their own apartments, have nine-to-five jobs, be married with children, and still be unable to think for themselves and act independently.

    We are all subject to influence from our parents, friends, teachers, co-workers… When this influence helps someone grow and maintain an internal locus of control, it is healthy. Influence which is used to keep people mindless and dependent is unhealthy. To download a PDF of the Influence Continuum graphic, click here.
    Destructive mind control is not just used by cults. Learn about the Human Trafficking BITE Model and the Terrorism BITE Model.

    The BITE Model
    I. Behavior Control
    II. Information Control
    III. Thought Control
    IV. Emotional Control
    Behavior Control

    1. Regulate individual’s physical reality
    2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates
    3. When, how and with whom the member has sex
    4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles
    5. Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
    6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep
    7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence
    8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time
    9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet
    10. Permission required for major decisions
    11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors
    12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative
    13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
    14. Impose rigid rules and regulations
    15. Instill dependency and obedience
    16. Threaten harm to family and friends
    17. Force individual to rape or be raped
    18. Instill dependency and obedience
    19. Encourage and engage in corporal punishment
    Information Control

    1. Deception:
    a. Deliberately withhold information
    b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
    c. Systematically lie to the cult member
    2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:
    a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, other media
    b.Critical information
    c. Former members
    d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate
    e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking
    3. Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
    a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible
    b.Control information at different levels and missions within group
    c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when
    4. Encourage spying on other members
    a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member
    b.Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership
    c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group
    5. Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including:
    a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
    b.Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
    6. Unethical use of confession
    a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries
    b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution
    c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories
    Thought Control

    1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
    a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
    b. Instill black and white thinking
    c. Decide between good vs. evil
    d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
    2.Change person’s name and identity
    3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
    4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
    5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
    6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
    7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
    a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
    b. Chanting
    c. Meditating
    d. Praying
    e. Speaking in tongues
    f. Singing or humming
    8. Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism
    9. Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
    10. Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
    Emotional Control

    1. Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish
    2. Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt
    3. Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault
    4. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as
    a. Identity guilt
    b. You are not living up to your potential
    c. Your family is deficient
    d. Your past is suspect
    e. Your affiliations are unwise
    f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
    g. Social guilt
    h. Historical guilt
    5. Instill fear, such as fear of:
    a. Thinking independently
    b. The outside world
    c. Enemies
    d. Losing one’s salvation
    e. Leaving or being shunned by the group
    f. Other’s disapproval
    6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
    7. Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins
    8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority
    a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
    b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
    c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family
    d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
    e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family”

  58. Could our readers please try not to post really long comments under posts. Also, please don’t requote really long comments and then comment.

  59. dee wrote:

    Could our readers please try not to post really long comments under posts. Also, please don’t requote really long comments and then comment.

    Will do.

  60. dee wrote:

    Could our readers please try not to post really long comments under posts. Also, please don’t requote really long comments and then comment.

    Dee,

    Go ahead and delete my longer post about Thought Reform techniques and I will just re- post the link only. (I post the TR information every now and again because Wartburgers have found it helpful.)

    Thank you.

  61. elastigirl wrote:

    Tom Braun and Joe Behnke, why did you destroy the lives of 2 elderly people? Please come and explain yourselves.

    “TOUCH NOT MIHE ANOINTED! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!”
    — Benny Hinn

  62. Jack wrote:

    I also heard the IRS got it handed to them by Scientology at some point.

    Not just “got it handed to them”, Scientology made the IRS dance to its tune with a Tone 40 Voice. Neverending massive strings of harassing lawsuits against the IRS, plus all the IRS agents investigating Scientology found themselves under “hot” surveillance and their pets tended to disappear or be found mysteriously dead. Fair Game Law LRH all the way. This all stopped immediately when the IRS ceased investigating and gave Scientology everything Scientology wanted. Whatever Scientology wants, Scientology gets.

    I wonder how many pastors salivated wishing they were Elron or David Miscavage?

  63. Jack wrote:

    It is so unsafe to be in any religion right now. It is unlikely I will ever consider joining one.
    Stay secular, my friends.

    Stay away from church FOR YOUR OWN PROTECTION.

  64. Velour wrote:

    A dear Christian woman is about to be excommunicated from John Piper’s church for leaving an abusive marriage.

    She got Uppity.
    “WOMAN! SUBMIT! AND STAY SWEET!”

  65. Looking over that list of “sins”, the only reasonable conclusion is that the pastors got their widdle feewings hurt.

    Add to the list of red flags that indicate a possible abusive church: emphasis on gossip (defined as talking about the leaders) and being divisive (defined as getting in the way of the leaders) as being terrible sins.

  66. Velour wrote:

    @ ishy:
    Dr. Ron Enroth’s classic book, available for FREE here, Churches That Abuse:
    http://www.reveal.org/development/Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

    His first chapter is about PASTOR Phil Aguilar of Set Free Christian Fellowship (pronounced as all one word). THAT FELLOWSHIP(TM) WAS LOCAL TO ME! Had almost as much air time as Calvary Chapel on local Christianese AM radio! Praise after Praise about SetFreeChristianFellowship on all local Christianese media!

    And from the case studies in that first chapter, the REAL PastorPhil (again, all one word) was a second Jim Jones without the poisoned Kool-Aid.

  67. Robert wrote:

    Looking over that list of “sins”, the only reasonable conclusion is that the pastors got their widdle feewings hurt.

    At which point, the SCREAMING temper tantrum begins to SMASH and DESTROY all within reach that offends. Like when those Mohammed cartoon reactions hit the media years ago.

  68. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And from the case studies in that first chapter, the REAL PastorPhil (again, all one word) was a second Jim Jones without the poisoned Kool-Aid.

    Wow H.U.G., I did not know that. I read it in Dr. Enroth’s book and Phil gave me the creeps.

  69. Lea wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    I think one reason many of these things have been happening is that Christians stand idly by and let them happen. I bet in many of these abuse cases there were warning signs, and Christians didn’t heed them or were afraid to say anything.
    IF you say anything, you’re next on the list.

    Make an Example of one and a hundred will fall right into line.

  70. Velour wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    And from the case studies in that first chapter, the REAL PastorPhil (again, all one word) was a second Jim Jones without the poisoned Kool-Aid.
    Wow H.U.G., I did not know that. I read it in Dr. Enroth’s book and Phil gave me the creeps.

    It was “spiritually” kissing the guy full on the mouth that clicked it.
    Jim Jones did the same shtick when sexually grooming his followers.

  71. Velour wrote:

    A dear Christian woman is about to be excommunicated from John Piper’s church for leaving an abusive marriage.

    We need this story here. Front and center. It must not happen under the cloak of religious darkness. It must be exposed to the light of truth and the light of the TRUTH incarnate.

  72. Velour wrote:

    This is so disturbing what is being done to domestic violence victims and their children. Violent men are being enabled.

    The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. (From Matthew 11:12)

    Piper is not feeding His ewes and lambs. Oh wait. Yes he is. He is feeding them to the wolves.

  73. Teri Anne wrote:

    I read that you need a letter of transfer from your previous church

    I think you may need to check that out further. When I/we/my whole family became episcopalians we did so from three different other denoms, UMC, SBC and United Church of Christ. We had to submit documentation of prior baptism. Documentation is actually too strong a word because what we actually did was just fill out the form giving date and place and denom of prior baptism; we did not have to actually submit any documents. One of us had never been baptized and the episcopal church did baptize her, by immersion at her request. At that point we became ‘baptized’ episcopalians, which is a membership level but does not carry with it the right to vote. Then we went to class and were confirmed and that put us in a different category of those with the right to vote.

    They notified our prior churches that we had become members of that episcopal church; that is ‘had become’ not pretty please if you will let them do this; and the prior UMC and UCC churches sent back an acknowledgment that they had received notification; the SBC church did not respond as last I heard. There was no ‘transfer of membership’ from a church of one denom to a church of another denom.

    I doubt that there is much in the way of an administrative problem with becoming an episcopalian, but there may well be a bit of culture shock.

  74. okrapod wrote:

    At that point we became ‘baptized’ episcopalians, which is a membership level but does not carry with it the right to vote. Then we went to class and were confirmed and that put us in a different category of those with the right to vote.

    Interesting!

    When I joined my church, you could join by letter, affirmation or baptism. They did not ask for documentation. Then the elders voted you in (this was not an intense process). They have a class, but you don’t have to go through it if you don’t want to.

  75. Mara wrote:

    The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. (From Matthew 11:12)
    Piper is not feeding His ewes and lambs. Oh wait. Yes he is. He is feeding them to the wolves.

    When he’s not (with appropriately flowery language and fluttering hands) EATING THEM HIMSELF.

    MenaGAWD have this mouth-watering desire for fresh mutton. Drooling over the vision of Mutton for Breakfast, Mutton for Lunch, Mutton for Dinner, and Lamb for snacks.

  76. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    A dear Christian woman is about to be excommunicated from John Piper’s church for leaving an abusive marriage.
    We need this story here. Front and center. It must not happen under the cloak of religious darkness. It must be exposed to the light of truth and the light of the TRUTH incarnate.

    I posted it on Facebook and I asked her to write about it for TWW. She’s not ready yet.
    She said she’d like the whole process to play out and then write about it.

    She is busy raising her children and running a home-based business to support them.
    http://www.applevalleynaturalsoap.com/

  77. Mara wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    This is so disturbing what is being done to domestic violence victims and their children. Violent men are being enabled.
    The Kingdom of Heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. (From Matthew 11:12)
    Piper is not feeding His ewes and lambs. Oh wait. Yes he is. He is feeding them to the wolves.

    Mara this is the woman Natalie’s blog. http://visionarywomanhood.com/author/visionarywomanhood/

    She also supports the domestic violence Christian support group:
    http://giveherwings.com/

  78. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It was “spiritually” kissing the guy full on the mouth that clicked it.
    Jim Jones did the same shtick when sexually grooming his followers.

    My father drove us kids by Jim Jones’ Peoples’ Temple in San Francisco so that we would note it.

  79. Velour wrote:

    My father drove us kids by Jim Jones’ Peoples’ Temple in San Francisco so that we would note it.

    And you should drive your children/grandchildren by the local YRR church plants in your area for the same reason. They may not be as cultish as Jones’ “ministry”, but certainly not healthy for your offspring to attend.

  80. Max wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    My father drove us kids by Jim Jones’ Peoples’ Temple in San Francisco so that we would note it.
    And you should drive your children/grandchildren by the local YRR church plants in your area for the same reason. They may not be as cultish as Jones’ “ministry”, but certainly not healthy for your offspring to attend.

    Amen.

  81. Max wrote:

    “A woman came to Jesus with an alabaster vial of very expensive perfume and she poured it on Jesus’ head as He reclined at the table. But when the disciples saw it they were indignant and angry, saying, “Why all this waste of money?” (Matthew 26)

    Beautiful and spot on.

  82. @ Velour:
    Which church does Piper attend? Are you referring to his former church? @ okrapod:

    In My former SBC church the entire congregation voted on new members. That doesn’t happen now.

  83. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Which church does Piper attend? Are you referring to his former church? @ okrapod:
    In My former SBC church the entire congregation voted on new members. That doesn’t happen now.

    Bethlehem Baptist I believe is the name in MN where Natalie K. is being excommunicated from because she’s leaving an abusive marriage.

    https://www.hopeingod.org/

    Did Piper start his own denomination and put the name “Baptist” on it? Or is his church part of the SBC?

  84. Velour wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Velour:
    Which church does Piper attend? Are you referring to his former church? @ okrapod:
    In My former SBC church the entire congregation voted on new members. That doesn’t happen now.
    Bethlehem Baptist I believe is the name in MN where Natalie K. is being excommunicated from because she’s leaving an abusive marriage.
    https://www.hopeingod.org/
    Did Piper start his own denomination and put the name “Baptist” on it? Or is his church part of the SBC?

    Bethlehem was the name of Piper’s church, where he was pastor, I seem to remember, at the time his “it is good for a woman to endure abuse for a season” video came out. Coincidence? Or is it the same church.

    One of the 9Marks churches in our area used to have a membership booklet that was evidently taken from Piper’s template. There was one page I noticed that had not had the “here at Bethlehem Baptist” (or whatever the exact name of the church is) changed to the name of the local church.

  85. @ Velour:
    Piper retired from Bethlehem Baptist and I believe he moved to Nashville. ( you should check out his retirement video someday ) Some had hope for Bethlehem after he left because the new pastor decided to allow women to read scripture in front of men . If you can imagine such a thing was accepted at all.

    Piper excommunicated his own son Abraham. From what I understand his big crime was he played in a band in bars.

    If you want to see what this woman is up against check out these links

    https://www.hopeingod.org/about-us/staff-leadership/pastors-ministers
    https://www.hopeingod.org/about-us/staff-leadership/elders

    Yikes!

  86. @ ishy:

    “I guess I’m wondering if is there anything that can be done to teach Christians to follow the guiding of the Holy Spirit?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i think some objectivity is needed concerning the pressure the NT puts on no quarrels, no factions, no divisions, unity.

    To me, the NT seems so focussed on these things — the only advice for confrontation is either about nebulous sin (which of course can be defined by the one in control) or something extreme like a man sleeping with his father’s wife.

  87. @ refugee:
    Bethlehem is listed as a “general” baptist church. I have no idea what that means. It has been reformed for a long time but I don’t know it’s very early history or its founding.

  88. @ refugee:
    I have another in customs but most definitely Piper teaches sustained abuse is no reason for divorce. That is long established Piper teaching.

  89. @ Lydia:

    Didn’t Bethlehem come out with something a year or so ago where they were trying to revamp their domestic violence policies? I’m wondering how that worked out..

  90. refugee wrote:

    Bethlehem was the name of Piper’s church, where he was pastor, I seem to remember, at the time his “it is good for a woman to endure abuse for a season” video came out. Coincidence? Or is it the same church.
    One of the 9Marks churches in our area used to have a membership booklet that was evidently taken from Piper’s template. There was one page I noticed that had not had the “here at Bethlehem Baptist” (or whatever the exact name of the church is) changed to the name of the local church.

    It’s my understanding that Natalie K., from her Facebook posts, is being excommunicated from Piper’s Bethlehem Baptist in Minnesota.

  91. Lea wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Didn’t Bethlehem come out with something a year or so ago where they were trying to revamp their domestic violence policies? I’m wondering how that worked out..

    I guess we’re seeing how it worked out. Take care of yourself and your children and have nothing to do with an abusive spouse, get excommunicated. Some *policy*.

  92. Lydia wrote:

    Piper excommunicated his own son Abraham. From what I understand his big crime was he played in a band in bars.

    Oh. My. Goodness.

  93. Lydia wrote:

    Some had hope for Bethlehem after he left because the new pastor decided to allow women to read scripture in front of men . If you can imagine such a thing was accepted at all.

    Ridiculous.

    I guess if the church’s culture has been set already, turning it around is going to be like turning around a ship. Not easy or fast.

  94. Lydia wrote:

    you should check out his retirement video someday )

    Is this the infamous John Piper retirement video that was done in Switzerland?

  95. @ Velour:

    Geneva, to be precise. In front of the giant Calvin and Reformers statues. Evidently, Desiring God is flush enough to fly him and a film crew there to film his very important retirement video. He made it sound like he expected to become the 21st century Global Apostle for Calvinism. But it seems he, instead, went to Nashville where his son Barnabas, the Presbyterian, is a content strategist for the Baptist Lifeway …..and became addicted to twitter. :o)

  96. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Geneva, to be precise. In front of the giant Calvin and Reformers statues.

    Under British law, for anyone except the King to sit on the Throne is High Treason.

    Because when someone else sits on the throne, They are proclaiming themselves King. Or at least Heir to the Throne.

  97. Lydia wrote:

    @ refugee:
    I have another in customs but most definitely Piper teaches sustained abuse is no reason for divorce. That is long established Piper teaching.

    I wonder if that’s all that’s keeping HIS wife from leaving him…

  98. JYJames wrote:

    @ Velour:
    In any case, link or post – THANK YOU for this information.

    You are most welcome.

    Steve Hassan’s work is based on that of American psychiatrist Dr. Robert Jay Lifton.
    Dr. Lifton is now at Yale University. Dr. Lifton first worked for the U.S. Air Force and he researched Chinese Communist Thought Reform techniques to strip people of their identities and to get them to conform.

    Brad/FuturistGuy who comments here, is a wonderful Christian and researcher, thinks highly of Dr. Lifton’s work and has written about it, here:
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/

  99. Lydia wrote:

    Lavonne has grit. God bless her!

    Amen. I wish I lived in her part of the country. I’d swing buy. Take her out for coffee and a meal. Do some chores. Help out.

    The best I could do was contact other denominations and ask them to do that. I contacted them several months ago when this story first broke.

    I’m out in California.

  100. Velour wrote:

    @ Lydia:

    Thanks, Lydia, for your hysterical answer about Piper.
    I didn’t know the part that he had moved to TN.

    Hiding from the Muscular Women…

  101. elastigirl wrote:

    religion schmeligion. you can explore God or any spiritual tradition minus the institution. i daresay God is as available as air.

    i have my doubts about Ganesha, but i can say from first-hand experience that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob / Jesus / Holy Spirit is/are as available as air.

    Very much agreed. Here’s what I read that a beautiful Rabbi from Nazareth said:

    “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”

    Left you a reply over on the OD thread.

  102. mirele wrote:

    The justices probably thought back to their first day of Constitutional law and the list of things that American courts aren’t supposed to touch with a ten-foot pole. And courts pretty much try to stay away from anything involving religious dogma.

    Dogma and doctrine are one thing and the courts are wise to not meddle. But in my opinion, the line is crossed when they exempt themselves from FICA, fair labor laws, and a host of other protections that other non-profits must abide by. They (religious non-profits) benefit greatly from, police, fire, and the infrastructure we all depend on and should not be exempt from its responsibilities.

  103. elastigirl wrote:

    i think some objectivity is needed concerning the pressure the NT puts on no quarrels, no factions, no divisions, unity.

    I see the problem is they were envisioning a group of peers and wrote accordingly. Why write about how to live within a hierarchical institution when that was anathema. It would be like asking James Madison why he didn’t give instruction in the US constitution how to properly defer to a king.

  104. @ Bill M:

    i’m sure the monstrosity of 21st century christian culture (profiting off Jesus, mega churches, pastor as lucrative career, biking pastor, hiking pastor, BBQ pastor, well-paying careers built on Gospel female subjugation, braindead masses & all) would have the NT writers saying “What the… alright, stop….. stop…. turn it off….we’re taking it all down…what’s gotten into you crazy people? you’ve missed the point entirely!”

    i mean the NT letters were written to small groups of people, right? peers, like you said.

  105. elastigirl wrote:

    i’m sure the monstrosity of 21st century christian culture (profiting off Jesus, mega churches, pastor as lucrative career, biking pastor, hiking pastor, BBQ pastor, well-paying careers built on Gospel female subjugation, braindead masses & all)

    and all culminating in the forecast of 80% of the above standing in support of a certain political candidate for president in the year 2016

    I think the Apostles would say to the remaining twenty percent: ‘Whither thou goest?’

  106. Bill M wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    i think some objectivity is needed concerning the pressure the NT puts on no quarrels, no factions, no divisions, unity.
    I see the problem is they were envisioning a group of peers and wrote accordingly. Why write about how to live within a hierarchical institution when that was anathema. It would be like asking James Madison why he didn’t give instruction in the US constitution how to properly defer to a king.

    Bingo. I imagine small groups meeting in small homes made up of differing parts of a very caste society. It was all so new and raw. The book of Philemon is instructive on this score. The slave is to be a brother in Christ to his master in the Body. The master had the legal right to put a run away slave to death. Paul said, treat him as a brother, please.

    I remember reading something a while ago on archaeology findings in Ephesus. The average home could have jammed about 20 people in for a meeting. They found one home that looked to be remodeled to fit about 70. We tend to read the letters thinking of one church in a city. It was typically many small groups which I doubt were highly organized but the letter written to the city that was then circulated. I often wonder what happened to the letter to Laodicea mentioned in Colossians.

  107. Muff Potter wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    The justices probably thought back to their first day of Constitutional law and the list of things that American courts aren’t supposed to touch with a ten-foot pole. And courts pretty much try to stay away from anything involving religious dogma.
    Dogma and doctrine are one thing and the courts are wise to not meddle. But in my opinion, the line is crossed when they exempt themselves from FICA, fair labor laws, and a host of other protections that other non-profits must abide by. They (religious non-profits) benefit greatly from, police, fire, and the infrastructure we all depend on and should not be exempt from its responsibilities.

    Why should churches get a free ride in our society? How is that being a good neighbor? They are like the politicians who vote mandates for us they are not subject to themselves.

  108. Velour wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Thanks, Lydia, for your hysterical answer about Piper.
    I didn’t know the part that he had moved to TN.

    Piper has become an endless loop Monty Python skit to me.

    Too bad they took down the video of him in Dubai. I mean– it needed to go– but it was such great proof of what he is really all about. It boggles my mind he went to all that trouble to have it filmed only to take it down after the obvious push back. What are Piper and his people smoking that they were not able to see what it communicated to a country where they were guests?

  109. @ Lydia:

    Indeed John Piper is really weird. (I read yesterday that he’d had no pastoring experience and was teaching at the seminary when he was asked to pastor at Bethlehem Baptist.)

  110. @ Velour:
    From St. B church website, women’s ministry:
    Subtitle: Our Titus 2 Ministry pairs older and younger women in informal relationships for the purpose of teaching biblical womanhood, basic homemaking skills, and other practical helps.
    Author: Pam Larson”

  111. Velour wrote:

    Did Piper start his own denomination and put the name “Baptist” on it? Or is his church part of the SBC?

    Piper is a “Reformed Baptist” not a Southern Baptist. His ex-church, Bethlehem Baptist, is not an SBC member. Although, the way things are going, SBC would probably not have a problem accepting Bethlehem Baptist into the fold since reformed theology will soon be the default belief and practice of a once-great evangelistic denomination.

  112. Lea wrote:

    In the case in Memphis (I forget which church) they kicked out the doctor who said she thought the preacher was a narcissist. Then her friend tried to write a letter and take a stand about it, and she got kicked off the worship team. So two and in a church maybe even a biggish group, like at Tullian’s old church, won’t do it. You need the whole body.

    Sandy Willson’s Memphis Second Presbyterian Church. I wrote about them and you can read that below.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/09/06/an-overview-of-sandy-willson-and-memphis-second-presbyterian-church-plus-when-individuals-like-c-j-carolyn-mahaney-and-steve-estes-are-promoted-does-that-help-transplant-an-unhealthy-culture-at-ri/

  113. Lydia wrote:

    Piper has become an endless loop Monty Python skit to me.

    As in Man with Three Buttocks, Ministry of Silly Walks, Lemming of the BDA, Spanish Inquisition, Argument Clinic, Cheese Shop, Rare Norwegian Blue, Nudge Nudge Wink Wink Know What I Mean Know What I Mean, or all of the above?

  114. @ Velour:
    Word on the street from long ago is he got Greg Boyd fired (or tried to) from Bethel Seminary as a heretic.

    His dad started out as a Bob Jones Evangelist.

  115. Lydia wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Word on the street from long ago is he got Greg Boyd fired (or tried to) from Bethel Seminary as a heretic.
    His dad started out as a Bob Jones Evangelist.

    I didn’t know about Boyd.

    Yes, I had heard that his dad started as a BJE.

  116. Teri Anne wrote:

    Now I have been attending an Episcopal church that I like. This month the church is holding their annual classes which you have to attend to join the church, and I was thinking of joining the church until I read that you need a letter of transfer from your previous church. It was not clear if this rule is just for other Episcopal churches or all churches.

    Please ask the parish clergy. I know people who have joined Episcopal churches without a letter of transfer; maybe it’s just stated as one way to join? A lot of folks move around during their lives and don’t belong to a particular church for years on end, and then they decide to join.

    If the parish says no, you might contact the diocese… but I would be leery of any church that rigidly insisted on a letter of transfer.

  117. @ Teri Anne:
    OK, so I am confused, as I attend an Anglican church here in Hong Kong and have never heard of anyone needing to attend classes to join, although we do do Christianity Explored as our pastor worked at All Souls Langham Place London before. And what is this letter you need from the church you left all about?
    Seriously it would seem that the church is in such a mess over there! why would anyone want to join?!

  118. And just to say that no one had to do the Christianity Explored thingy unless they want to.

  119. @ Friend: Letter of transfer in the Episcopal church is very benign. Being episcopal they put big stock in confirmation by a
    Bishop. Full voting membership in a parish usually reqires that. If you can’t get a letter of transfer from the parish then as someone said the diocese where you were confirmed or received into the Episcopal church if you were Catholic (and confirmed already) or Eastern Orthodox (and charismated) can probably be obtained. Let’s not carry all our concerns from overly controlling evangelical practice into other traditions. And I am not even Episcopal. I’m Catholic. As a rule Catholic parishes just take your word that you’ve been baptized and confirmed. I count that up to the massive immigration in 19th and 18th centuries. Peasants fron Ireland and Sicily were not carrying letters with them from their parish priests. The Episcopal church always tended to be more middle class with fancy letters and things.

  120. Fruits of the Spirit verses fruits of coffee grounds.

    Prayers for this elderly woman as the institutional church crucifies its elders. “Eldership” is NOT an office in the Body of Jesus Christ, but a function.

  121. @ Bridget: That would make my smart alec self say “Well, I guess that 10 lbs of gold coins I inherited wouldn’t be welcomed either, so I donated it to another cause….” Aren’t there bigger causes in the world worth fighting for than a limit on brisket weight at a church potluck? Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

  122. @ Teri Anne:
    I would suggest a private talk with the pastor and share your concerns and history. Most pastors are unlike what we read about here.

  123. Againstthetide wrote:

    @ Bridget: That would make my smart alec self say “Well, I guess that 10 lbs of gold coins I inherited wouldn’t be welcomed either, so I donated it to another cause….” Aren’t there bigger causes in the world worth fighting for than a limit on brisket weight at a church potluck? Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

    Yes, that would be me! Admonished by the chairman of the elder board for bringing 10 pounds of bbq beef brisket to the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley fellowship meal. It disappeared in record speed time, but the elders/pastors had a meeting
    about my brisket…and not in a good way.

    I was admonished — actually called at home — and told that I was “too generous”.
    As Dee would say here, “Good night!” I should have quipped, “And you’re too rude…all of you.” But my jaw was on the ground to even get such a cheeky call.

  124. Velour wrote:

    Yes, that would be me! Admonished by the chairman of the elder board for bringing 10 pounds of bbq beef brisket to the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley fellowship meal. It disappeared in record speed time, but the elders/pastors had a meeting
    about my brisket…and not in a good way.

    I was admonished — actually called at home — and told that I was “too generous”.
    As Dee would say here, “Good night!” I should have quipped, “And you’re too rude…all of you.” But my jaw was on the ground to even get such a cheeky call.

    Our Lord fed five thousand. I think those men had another ‘beef’ to pick with you, so to speak. Silly men. There is no ‘too generous’ in a faith where love is.

  125. Abi Miah wrote:

    The Bible does not allow for anonymous witnesses

    Interesting! Would you be able to tell me some passages that demonstrate this? Not disbelieving you; quite the opposite in fact. But I had a similar issue with my previous, very controlling church. I had stopped going on Sundays but didn’t want to lose contact entirely with my group of friends, so I kept going to the weekday women’s Bible study. The pastor, women’s leader, and another elder came round to my house to kick me out because “people” felt that I was a disturbing influence. I asked the pastor if anyone had actually made a complaint about me, and he got all up in a huff and started ranting about how he would never divulge a confidence or give away confidential information like that. Which actually I hadn’t asked him to do anyway; I’d just asked if anyone had made a specific complaint. My unprovable but solid suspicion is that the person who was uncomfortable was HIM, so he was getting rid of me. He couldn’t offer anything that I’d done or said wrong, or any evidence that people were upset with me or that my presence was causing upset. Just that I challenged him and he didn’t like it.

    All of which is a long way of saying that if there is further evidence Biblically that he acting out of line, which helps me understand my feeling about the situation I would be grateful for it.