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@ Deb:

🙂

I came across an article on another site that deals with abusive churches. Seems a good fit with 9Marks… http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.co.uk/2016/10/abusive-churches.html?m=1

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Is the YRR movement still growing? I remember how they were on the rise in early to mid 2000s. Are they still on that pace? Plateaud? Starting to decline? (Is the Mars Hill implosion indicative of the movement?). I no longer hang around folks who would be into YRR stuff so I can’t get a feel for it that way.

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@ refugee:
From the screenshot:
“It’s time for the church to create space in its local assemblies for strong females who happily affirm authority while advocating for more opportunities for women to flourish according to their gifts and qualifications.”

The images that come to mind…
Mary Kassian, anyone?

“Strong women who happily affirm authority” — reminds me of the Judas goat, that leads the others to slaughter.

“Advocating for more opportunities for women to flourish according to their gifts and qualifications”
Yes. Just so long as their gift is not speaking and teaching, and their qualification is not a degree from a seminary, for starters.

I am reminded of our former church, where I heard leaders talking wistfully, in the way of people who have a vision for something better, about how they wished the people of our church would rise up and create new artwork, new music, new… stuff (writing?) to honoring the Lord and prove to the world that living a god-honoring life was the key to fruitfulness, fulfillment, and satisfaction.

Unfortunately, somehow the rules grew more and more restraining, people were more and more constrained within their elder-defined “roles” and it felt like at the end, when we left, all that was left were these narrow definitions of what you were allowed to do, depending on who you were (both gender and perceived status – those with the best “appearance” of having it all together had the highest status, IIRC).

In our experience, authority squelches. It kills. It breaks the bruised reed and quenches the smoldering flax.

I’m sure the 9Marks people would be happy to assure us that properly applied authority brings life and that abundantly.

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“It’s time for the church to create space in its local assemblies for strong females who happily affirm authority while advocating for more opportunities for women to flourish according to their gifts and qualification.”

This seems like an exercise in talking out of both sides of the mouth.
A little cognitive dissonance, anyone?

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Well, obviously the first mark of a healthy church is that it must have a healthy Jesus.

As we all know, shortly ater the medieval Reformation Jesus was divided into many separate bodies. (This is why it became necessary for godly men, with a real passion to burn alive those who disagreed with them, to define “a church”.) Now, by God’s grace, there are thousands of Jesuses all over the world. Any godly man with a real heart to serve the gospel, a real passion to see souls transformed by the power of the gospel, and a real desire to see the gospel spread can go somewhere with lots of rich people and plant a new Jesus.

So before you either plant a new Jesus, or choose a new Jesus to serve, you need to make sure of who’s in control of this Jesus and who is casting and driving forward its vision. Otherwise the devil will get you, and it’ll serve you right.

That is why authority is so important.

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Lydia wrote:

Nothing makes me angrier than deception and brain gaming. And that is all 9 Marx is arrempting to do now in order to survive all the pushback. It helps to take a Birdseye view of their confusing messages which is basically, we are to be good authorities who are not authoritarian. The problem is, they were conceived for authoritarian rule and it’s all they know.
They want to say the right words and hope we don’t notice the praxis.

+100

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Deb wrote:

One upcoming event I failed to mention is 9Marks’ ‘Revitalization Conference”, which they are doing with the North American Mission Board.

https://9marks.org/event/2016/11/9m-namb2016/?utm_source=9Mhome-nutsandbolts&utm_medium=9Mhome-nutsandbolts&utm_campaign=9Mhome-nutsandbolts

Is anyone surprised? 9Marks believes it has all the answers for the revitalization of Southern Baptist churches.

IMO they will just speed up the demise of the Southern Baptist Convention. It is truly sad what is happening to this once great organization.

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A 9 Marks title from the above article:
“Is it self serving to teach on your own authority?”

In a word, yes.

In three words, without a doubt.

In more words…

How delusional do you 9 Marxist want to be? How far do you want to separate yourselves from the Words of Jesus Christ? How much do you want to mangle and twist the words of Paul for your own benefit and to the detriment of others?

And the bigger questions? How long do you think God is going to allow you to steal His Kingdom away from Him by force and stealth? How long do you think God will watch you steal His church, shear His sheep, and boil & eat His ewes and lambs for supper before He steps in and gets sovereign all over you?

You boys really don’t understand what you are toying with. You really don’t get that you are rushing in where angels fear to tread by propping yourselves up and teaching on your own authority. You really don’t get the gravity of the situation. Because it appears that you are boys who bully and toy, not men who understand and tremble at His holiness.

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Knowing that 9 Marks had recently held an event locally, I was anxious to see Fort Worth listed alongside “Hawaii, Barcelona, and Dubai” as one of the exotic places, but alas, it was relegated to being referenced with “annual 9Marks events at various Southern Baptist seminaries”. Surely there is room for Cowtown to be both exotic and the home to SWBTS?

Thanks for the update on the latest from 9 Marks. I wonder if they gave any forethought to the name before committing it to permanence. What happens when another tablet, I mean mark, is discovered?

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dee wrote:

The problem for them is that the truth is not a bunch of *Amen, bro.* That is difficult for them to swallow. They know they are right.

But fear that they are wrong in the day-to-day application of their authority, as they usurp God’s authority. They are so involved in the OT approach to religion, and in twisting the meaning of the life of Jesus, that they cannot see that Jesus taught that what they do is AGAINST THE EXPLICIT TEACHING OF JESUS!

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An attorney wrote:

But fear that they are wrong in the day-to-day application of their authority, as they usurp God’s authority. They are so involved in the OT approach to religion, and in twisting the meaning of the life of Jesus, that they cannot see that Jesus taught that what they do is AGAINST THE EXPLICIT TEACHING OF JESUS!

I don’t even think the OT recommends the level of authority that these groups take. I don’t see any biblical justification for their authority structure. That kind of structure comes from cults and cultural institutions.

They pretty much have to ignore large swaths of the Bible to support their positions, and take half verses out of context to have even a little biblical support. The Bible isn’t their authority, and it definitely isn’t Jesus. Their authority comes from themselves alone.

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“… 9Marks is attempting to influence the way church is done.”

And SBC seminaries are lining up to help them do it! They are depending on a YRR army educated by Calvinisitic SBC seminary professors teamed with other non-SBC ‘ministries’ like Acts 29, SGM, T4G, etc. to accomplish their mission … to change the way SBC has been doing church at 45,000 churches across America for over 150 years as non-Calvinists in belief and practice. I have heard young New Calvinists actually refer to folks like Dever, Mahaney, Piper, etc. as “influencers.” The only ‘influence’ these preacher-boys should need for ministry is Jesus, but they are not turning to Him for direction – choosing, instead, mere men to chart their course.

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refugee wrote:

I am reminded of our former church, where I heard leaders talking wistfully, in the way of people who have a vision for something better, about how they wished the people of our church would rise up and create new artwork, new music, new… stuff (writing?) to honoring the Lord and prove to the world that living a god-honoring life was the key to fruitfulness, fulfillment, and satisfaction.

That hits upon a subject I have a stake in.

http://alanloewen.blogspot.com/2016/09/guest-editorial-why-is-christian.html

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I don’t know enough about how IX marks is applied in a church but based on the reports here, it hasn’t been a rousing success.

It sounds like IX Marks is trying to tone it down in their conferences. This is their public face and in light of the bad press this is all part of the “rebranding” from a couple of posts ago.

However (as Eagle mentioned) if you want to know what people really think, check out the library. And we can see from the IX Marks library that the conferences are a bit of a “bait and switch”.

I would say that IX Marks will be changing its name soon as part of this ongoing “rebranding” to something less authoritarian. The core will remain the same.

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@ Jack:

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is not a rousing success but in their minds it is because people are rebellious sinners. Ergo, the need for a new public face that is really a bait and switch. Improve the love bombing tactic?

9 Marx is nothing but a shepherding cult that tries to masquerade as scholarly and intellectual. It’s SGM with a pocket protector.

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Christiane wrote:

the original congregation of that Church would no longer recognize what Dever has done

The original congregations of thousands of Southern Baptist churches would not recognize, nor agree with, the belief and practice of this generation of SBC pastors! They would roll over in their graves if they knew that the torch of evangelism had been extinguished.

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Deb wrote:

I daresay the average Southern Baptist has never even heard of 9Marks.

Nor Acts 29, T4G, SGM, etc. … or recognize even Dever’s name or the host of non-SBC personalities that are influencing SBC life right now (Piper, etc.). These organizations and leaders are steering the SBC ship right now and the pew hasn’t realized yet that they sneaked on board!

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mot wrote:

The Southern Baptist leaders do a very good job of not informing the pew sitter of what is going on and it is forbidden to ask questions of the leaders.

Well, there is one person at most (if not all) of SBC’s 45,000 churches who knows exactly what is going on … his name is “Pastor.” I fault local church leaders, not national leaders, for not having “family talks” to inform their members about SBC Calvinization. In the meantime, the “giving units” are financing this rebellion, as more SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house) fall to New Calvinist leaders.

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Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:

I wish I lived in DC, because CHBC just seems to need a picket on general principles.

I actually attended there for two years and I don’t remember any of this! Mostly I remember awesome potlucks with old ladies and it makes me sad to think they might be gone now 🙁

Dever was an interesting preacher. I’ll give him that.

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dee wrote:

@ John:
What is interesting is that they posted them front and center on the 9Marks site. I read over there 3 times a week, and this is rather overwhelming.

Dee,
That’s because, according to them, people hardly ever think about or consider authority, so they want to bring it to people’s attention.

Of course, the “teachable” ones are going to want to know more.

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A.Stacy wrote:

Not all churches that are on that map are 9Marks.

On the other hand, when it comes to Acts 29, not all SBC-YRR churches who adopt Acts 29 methodology formerly sign on as Acts 29 members (part of the deception).

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Max wrote:

A.Stacy wrote:
Not all churches that are on that map are 9Marks.
On the other hand, when it comes to Acts 29, not all SBC-YRR churches who adopt Acts 29 methodology formerly sign on as Acts 29 members (part of the deception).

I was just thinking the same thing. Sojourn churches here have gone to a lot of trouble to erase their Acts 29/Mark Driscoll affiliation and training. Yet they are very same top down shepherding cult Neo Calvinist operation. Even have had former Mars Hill staffers. But the pew sitters think it is laid back and cool. Unless……they dare decide to dissent.

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@ Lydia:
And Sojourn started their own church planting network. I know of one because I know an SBTS guy who moved to plant one in a Southern city full of baptist churches. They still troll me for donations because he took the Rolodex of his former church. Naughty.

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Max wrote:

mot wrote:

The Southern Baptist leaders do a very good job of not informing the pew sitter of what is going on and it is forbidden to ask questions of the leaders.

Well, there is one person at most (if not all) of SBC’s 45,000 churches who knows exactly what is going on … his name is “Pastor.” I fault local church leaders, not national leaders, for not having “family talks” to inform their members about SBC Calvinization. In the meantime, the “giving units” are financing this rebellion, as more SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house) fall to New Calvinist leaders.

I am not defending these pastors at all, but they have seen what happens to most pastors that step out of line–they lose their churches. They fear the loss of their jobs. As I told my wife this morning at breakfast if I have to lose my pastor’s job to stand up for what is wrong with the SBC, then I will lose my job. I actually had to leave the SBC church I was pastoring because I said it was very wrong the way the Woman Pastor that was called in our Association was treated. Her church was disfellowshipped 2 weeks after she received the call to this church.

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Lydia wrote:

It’s SGM with a pocket protector.

…in a French-cuff shirt and gold cufflinks. Mahaney taught them how to draw a crowd, and Dever (a truly intelligent man) taught them how to be an “intellectual.”

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refugee wrote:

It seemed to me at the time that they were gradually but inexorably squeezing all pleasure (joy?) out of worship.

What a great observation. They take the joy out of worship, marriage, and relationships. Everything has to follow their formula. No serendipity or playfulness. Think of the way a loving father interacts with his beloved children. What they teach is not that. Joyless-Submission-To-Authority is their only message, and that comes through loud and clear in both the articles devoted to Authority but also in the other articles about membership.

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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Did you ever hear Doug Phillips’ talk about how science fiction could be made honoring to God? Someone loaned us the DVD, I think it was, or maybe a CD, a long time ago.

I remember being given a christian speculative fiction book to review (with a whole lot of other bloggers). It was awful. At best, the book got praised with faint damns.

I was already becoming disillusioned with Vision Forum when I saw the book heavily featured in their catalog a year or two after that. It sort of confirmed for me that VF was full of it. (And I’m not talking the Spirit…)

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Gram3 wrote:

They take the joy out of worship, marriage, and relationships.

Yes. There is no joy in submitting to ‘authority’ ad nauseum, no matter how many times you tell people they should do it joyfully!

I think they believe that stating a thing will make it so. They want to imagine away problems, and think if you can just say the *right words* that will fix everything. (SCCL’s on facebook linked a ‘comic’ that was did that by just endlessly stating that women are equal because we say so they just have different ‘roles’ so it’s all ok!) Nope.

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@ refugee:
Reading the article you linked. I wonder if that Texas symposium on xtian (I won’t dignify it with the word “christian”) sci-fi *was* Vision Forum and Doug Phillips!

I do remember some christian themes in Ray Bradbury’s writing, I think. And Heinlein’s “Boy Scout” books (before he started getting wilder and, to my senses, weird) had a definite moral feel to them, a message of right-and-wrong. More recently, I enjoyed “The Light of Eidon” series, before I stepped away from most christian writers and christianized fiction.

OTOH, further along in the article, and the idea of limiting one’s vision to near-future dystopian stories, that doesn’t sound VFish to me, though the “Calvinist” mention does. From what I gather, the VF types were planning to bring about the kingdom on earth through following the right set of rules.

Good article. I concur with the author that much of this is fear-based. I got caught in a restrictive system that squeezed all the joy out of living, because of fear.

The world is a large and sometimes scary place, but not half as scary as the thought of what it would have been like to remain “obedient” to those elders and that church. The scars cut deep, but at least there is some healing happening now.

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@ Deb:

Mclean Bible’s New City Planting Network is promoting this 9 Marks conference. I wonder how many people who attend Lon Solomon’s McLean Bible know they are now Southern Baptist? My prediction is that McLean Bible will be a 9 Marks church in a couple of years.

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/09/30/why-is-mclean-bibles-new-city-network-promoting-9-marks-church-revitalization-conference/

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Robert wrote:

I don’t know how many marks there are of an abusive church, but I think obsession with authority has to be one of the biggest.

Since you brought it up…

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/08/05/nine-marks-of-an-abusive-church-3/

You are correct about ‘obsession with authority’.

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Authority is not about lording it over other people (ed.) Authority is not assigned by oneself to oneself.

Authority is given by others who determine the worthiness of the designee. The designee remains under the authority of that worthiness and of those who appointed him/her.

Authority is not about dominating other people but about holding in trust things that are true and precious and living into those truths in a meaningful way, as an example and leader.

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I still would like to see my 95 thesis nailed to the door of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. Anyone who does that…please email me a picture! 🙂

https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/11/23/95-reasons-why-we-need-a-new-reformation/

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Well, obviously the first mark of a healthy church is that it must have a healthy Jesus.
As we all know, shortly ater the medieval Reformation Jesus was divided into many separate bodies. (This is why it became necessary for godly men, with a real passion to burn alive those who disagreed with them, to define “a church”.) Now, by God’s grace, there are thousands of Jesuses all over the world. Any godly man with a real heart to serve the gospel, a real passion to see souls transformed by the power of the gospel, and a real desire to see the gospel spread can go somewhere with lots of rich people and plant a new Jesus.
So before you either plant a new Jesus, or choose a new Jesus to serve, you need to make sure of who’s in control of this Jesus and who is casting and driving forward its vision. Otherwise the devil will get you, and it’ll serve you right.
That is why authority is so important.

Yes, they are preaching a different Jesus–when they speak of Him at all. As we became more disillusioned at a small YRR church, my wife and I started counting how many references were made to Jesus from the pulpit: at one point pastor went over a month without saying the word “Jesus” once. There was much discussion of “The Mission” (never quite defined, but as near as we could make out, it vaguely involved growing our particular fellowship by bringing new twenty-somethings–and sundry others–through the doors and giving sacrificially of our monetary and time resources so that eventually our leader and coterie of young sycophants could control a church with enough revenues to provide them all with comfortable livings and have sufficient buttocks in the collapsible seats to make them feel important and, perhaps, have sufficient narcissistic supply upon which they could vent their sadistic schemes, which generally involved systematically eliminating any real fellowship that the people had in favor of programs that increasingly highlighted the leaders, while punishing anyone who questioned their unilateral manipulations).

At the end of the day, we came to realize that The Mission apparently did not include Jesus, was really an attempt to get beyond this “Jesus Thing”. When Jesus was preached, it always seemed to be a Jesus with whom we were not familiar, one who, according to pastor “spoke more about money than any other topic” (that gem from one of several “give til it hurts” sermons), one who was essentially a tool used by pastor to control a group of people–not at all the Creator of the Universe before Whom pastor was to humbly submit along with the rest, before Whom pastor had no special standing.

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Lydia wrote:

erase their Acts 29/Mark Driscoll affiliation and training

I saw this here, too. When Driscoll (Acts 29 founder) became a potato too hot to handle, followed by the disgraceful exit of Darrin Patrick (Acts 29 VP), the SBC-YRR churches in my area distanced themselves from Acts 29 affiliation. However, they still use Driscoll’s method and message.

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Lydia wrote:

But the pew sitters think it is laid back and cool.

As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?!”. They could find “laid back and cool” in other churches that are on the margin of Christendom, but New Calvinism has a particular appeal, especially to young men who like potty-mouth preaching, oppressed women, and doing church without God.

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Mara wrote:

A 9 Marks title from the above article:
“Is it self serving to teach on your own authority?”
In a word, yes.
In three words, without a doubt.
In more words…
How delusional do you 9 Marxist want to be? How far do you want to separate yourselves from the Words of Jesus Christ? How much do you want to mangle and twist the words of Paul for your own benefit and to the detriment of others?
And the bigger questions? How long do you think God is going to allow you to steal His Kingdom away from Him by force and stealth? How long do you think God will watch you steal His church, shear His sheep, and boil & eat His ewes and lambs for supper before He steps in and gets sovereign all over you?
You boys really don’t understand what you are toying with. You really don’t get that you are rushing in where angels fear to tread by propping yourselves up and teaching on your own authority. You really don’t get the gravity of the situation. Because it appears that you are boys who bully and toy, not men who understand and tremble at His holiness.

+++++++++

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Deb wrote:

A good number of Southern Baptists are hitting the exits never to return out of protest to the doctrinal shift and pastoral power plays.

Agreed, but 'most' are still sitting in their pews and sowing seeds into the coming New Calvinist Kingdom, oblivious to the shift in belief and drift in practice in SBC life.

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Max wrote:

Lydia wrote:

But the pew sitters think it is laid back and cool.

As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?!”. They could find “laid back and cool” in other churches that are on the margin of Christendom, but New Calvinism has a particular appeal, especially to young men who like potty-mouth preaching, oppressed women, and doing church without God.

Where else? A bar. I’d rather do that than this kind of church any day.

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@ siteseer:

Exactly what I said to my adult daughter yesterday, who’s currently attending a young, restless and reformed church with her husband. She’s uncomfortable with it, feels uneasy, it’s led by painfully young, thirty-something pastors who do some almost ridiculously immature things (e.g., the current sermon series is Pokemon themed, pastor puts up slides on the screen of Pokemon characters to illustrate points, refers to being a good Christian as being a new Pokemon character he imagined, called “Supermon”, as in, “Here’s how to be a righteous ‘Supermon'”).

The whole concept makes me cringe, it’s hard to believe anyone could buy into this puerile nonsense, but she says to this point they haven’t said anything specifically wrong and unbiblical, and her husband thinks they’re godly men.

I told her “Scratch a little on them, disagree with something, then you’ll see how godly they are”.

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Mara wrote:

Because it appears that you are boys who bully and toy, not men who understand and tremble at His holiness.

I’ll add one more. I don’t think the boyz are saved, even Christians. They are Pharisees who know the Words of God, who search the Scriptures, and yet they do NOT know God.

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Lydia wrote:

@ Jack:
I think you have hit the nail on the head. It is not a rousing success but in their minds it is because people are rebellious sinners. Ergo, the need for a new public face that is really a bait and switch. Improve the love bombing tactic?
9 Marx is nothing but a shepherding cult that tries to masquerade as scholarly and intellectual. It’s SGM with a pocket protector.

Spot on, Lydia, and Jack too.

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Psychologist/author/Thought Reform/Cult expert Steve Hassan’s BITE Model about high control groups, which 9 Marks is (Mark Dever having re-birthed the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding Movement from the Florida 5, which most of the founders in Florida later repented for its abuses and un-Biblicalness).

Steven Hassan’s BITE Model of Cult Mind Control
Many people think of mind control as an ambiguous, mystical process that cannot be defined in concrete terms. In reality, mind control refers to a specific set of methods and techniques, such as hypnosis or thought- stopping, that influence how a person thinks, feels, and acts. Like many bodies of knowledge, it is not inherently good or evil. If mind control techniques are used to empower an individual to have more choice, and authority for his life remains within himself, the effects can be beneficial. For example, benevolent mind control can be used to help people quit smoking without affecting any other behavior. Mind control becomes destructive when the locus of control is external and it is used to undermine a person’s ability to think and act independently.

As employed by the most destructive cults, mind control seeks nothing less than to disrupt an individual’s authentic identity and reconstruct it in the image of the cult leader. I developed the BITE model to help people determine whether or not a group is practicing destructive mind control. The BITE model helps people understand how cults suppress individual member’s uniqueness and creativity. BITE stands for the cult’s control of an individual’s Behavior, Intellect, Thoughts, and Emotions.

It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present. Mindcontrolled cult members can live in their own apartments, have nine-to-five jobs, be married with children, and still be unable to think for themselves and act independently.

We are all subject to influence from our parents, friends, teachers, co-workers… When this influence helps someone grow and maintain an internal locus of control, it is healthy. Influence which is used to keep people mindless and dependent is unhealthy. To download a PDF of the Influence Continuum graphic, click here.
Destructive mind control is not just used by cults. Learn about the Human Trafficking BITE Model and the Terrorism BITE Model.

The BITE Model
I. Behavior Control
II. Information Control
III. Thought Control
IV. Emotional Control
Behavior Control

1. Regulate individual’s physical reality
2. Dictate where, how, and with whom the member lives and associates or isolates
3. When, how and with whom the member has sex
4. Control types of clothing and hairstyles
5. Regulate diet – food and drink, hunger and/or fasting
6. Manipulation and deprivation of sleep
7. Financial exploitation, manipulation or dependence
8. Restrict leisure, entertainment, vacation time
9. Major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and/or self indoctrination including the Internet
10. Permission required for major decisions
11. Thoughts, feelings, and activities (of self and others) reported to superiors
12. Rewards and punishments used to modify behaviors, both positive and negative
13. Discourage individualism, encourage group-think
14. Impose rigid rules and regulations
15. Instill dependency and obedience
16. Threaten harm to family and friends
17. Force individual to rape or be raped
18. Instill dependency and obedience
19. Encourage and engage in corporal punishment
Information Control

1. Deception:
a. Deliberately withhold information
b. Distort information to make it more acceptable
c. Systematically lie to the cult member
2. Minimize or discourage access to non-cult sources of information, including:
a. Internet, TV, radio, books, articles, newspapers, magazines, other media
b.Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members busy so they don’t have time to think and investigate
e. Control through cell phone with texting, calls, internet tracking
3. Compartmentalize information into Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Ensure that information is not freely accessible
b.Control information at different levels and missions within group
c. Allow only leadership to decide who needs to know what and when
4. Encourage spying on other members
a. Impose a buddy system to monitor and control member
b.Report deviant thoughts, feelings and actions to leadership
c. Ensure that individual behavior is monitored by group
5. Extensive use of cult-generated information and propaganda, including:
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audiotapes, videotapes, YouTube, movies and other media
b.Misquoting statements or using them out of context from non-cult sources
6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about sins used to disrupt and/or dissolve identity boundaries
b. Withholding forgiveness or absolution
c. Manipulation of memory, possible false memories
Thought Control

1. Require members to internalize the group’s doctrine as truth
a. Adopting the group’s ‘map of reality’ as reality
b. Instill black and white thinking
c. Decide between good vs. evil
d. Organize people into us vs. them (insiders vs. outsiders)
2.Change person’s name and identity
3. Use of loaded language and clichés which constrict knowledge, stop critical thoughts and reduce complexities into platitudinous buzz words
4. Encourage only ‘good and proper’ thoughts
5. Hypnotic techniques are used to alter mental states, undermine critical thinking and even to age regress the member
6. Memories are manipulated and false memories are created
7. Teaching thought-stopping techniques which shut down reality testing by stopping negative thoughts and allowing only positive thoughts, including:
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in tongues
f. Singing or humming
8. Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism
9. Forbid critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy allowed
10. Labeling alternative belief systems as illegitimate, evil, or not useful
Emotional Control

1. Manipulate and narrow the range of feelings – some emotions and/or needs are deemed as evil, wrong or selfish
2. Teach emotion-stopping techniques to block feelings of homesickness, anger, doubt
3. Make the person feel that problems are always their own fault, never the leader’s or the group’s fault
4. Promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness, such as
a. Identity guilt
b. You are not living up to your potential
c. Your family is deficient
d. Your past is suspect
e. Your affiliations are unwise
f. Your thoughts, feelings, actions are irrelevant or selfish
g. Social guilt
h. Historical guilt
5. Instill fear, such as fear of:
a. Thinking independently
b. The outside world
c. Enemies
d. Losing one’s salvation
e. Leaving or being shunned by the group
f. Other’s disapproval
6. Extremes of emotional highs and lows – love bombing and praise one moment and then declaring you are horrible sinner
7. Ritualistic and sometimes public confession of sins
8. Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority
a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family

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Gram3 wrote:

A good number of Southern Baptists are hitting the exits never to return out of protest to the doctrinal shift and pastoral power plays.

Where do these folks go?

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Velour wrote:

Christiane wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
A good number of Southern Baptists are hitting the exits never to return out of protest to the doctrinal shift and pastoral power plays.
Where do these folks go?

They are enjoying staying at home, going out for a Sunday drive, doing activities on Sundays, hobbies, hiking, biking, and any other wonderful things.

They are staying home and making beautiful breakfasts or going to a restaurant for one.

My daughter once said she felt the whole world was her Church. 🙂
I can’t imagine going to Church and seeing people being ‘disciplined’ publicly and shamed before the whole congregation, or hearing some sermon that dwells on the idolatry of male head-ship as something God approves of. That is not ‘Church’, no.

I think of the ‘survivors’ of abuse who come to TWW and about how gracious Wade has been to provide for them on Sundays, knowing that many have suffered in a Church environment and need ministry ‘on line’. This is a blessing for such people until such time as they find a community to pray with and be with.
TWW on Sundays IS ‘sanctuary’. TWW is in reality a kind of sanctuary for injured people twenty-four seven. This is a good work.

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Max wrote:

As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?!”. They could find “laid back and cool” in other churches that are on the margin of Christendom, but New Calvinism has a particular appeal, especially to young men who like potty-mouth preaching, oppressed women, and doing church without God

The sheer, naked arrogance is what gets me. I know where I’m not going to go, and that is to another elitist, authoritarian church. Been there, done that, hated it, still have the scars to prove it 30 years later.

Before finding this blog I didn’t really think one way or another about Calvinism. It always struck me as Calvin wanting to do for Christianity what Euclid did for geometry, which is define a few basic axioms and prove some theorems from them. The problem is that God cannot be defined by axioms such as “omnipotent” and “totally sovereign” and it is idolatry to think that Calvin’s theology is equal to the Word of God.

Having said that, if New Calvinism has any kind of appeal it is lost on me.

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Lea wrote:

And they would be right. Maybe they should ask if that’s a good thing or not.

🙂 I know some who are rabid but who are also deluded. I have observed the fruit of the Spirit in their lives, but they really do idolize certain men. Not mine to decide or worry about.

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refugee wrote:

How to have a church full of happy complementarians. Reading that title made me shudder.

A church full of happy complimentarians would be about as common as pasture full of unicorns.

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Burwell wrote:

I could not agree more – great art, writing, poetry, architecture, etc. But among the 9M/ TGC ‘intelligentsia’ and its disciples, the only worthy calling is church planting or pastoring a neo-Reformed church for the men or being a complimentarian wife for the women.

For the Rewolution, Comrades.

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It’s interesting to see that Mark Dever joined the SB Founders Committee in 1997, the same year that his small booklet “Nine Marks of a Healthy Church” was published by the Founders Committee and that in early 1998 the Founders Magazine noted the following –

“12th Annual Editora Fiel Conference in Brazil

Under the guidance of founder and missionary Richard Denham the publishing house, Editora Fiel, sponsored its twelfth Leadership Conference for Pastors and church workers in Brazil. Two Southern Baptist pastors from the United States were the conference speakers. Mark Dever, from the Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington D. C., spoke 7 times on the “Marks of a Healthy Church” and once on “The Value of the Puritans for Today.” Tom Ascol, from the Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, spoke four times on “Spiritual Warfare” and four times on “The Bible for Today” (its authority, power, sufficiency and finality).

A record number of pastors were among the 492 adult registrants with twenty one of Brazil’s twenty six states represented. Many traveled more than fifty hours one way by bus to attend. Over 425 video tapes and 1000 audio tapes of the messages were sold during the week. Pastors and leaders from churches in the Baptist Convention of Brazil met during the week to pray about and organize efforts to labor for biblical reformation and revival within their denomination.”
https://web.archive.org/web/19980117100524/http://www.founders.org/FJ26/news.html#1

Is this the start of the 9Marks phenomenon?

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Lea wrote:

Yes. There is no joy in submitting to ‘authority’ ad nauseum, no matter how many times you tell people they should do it joyfully!

The last to try that were the classic Communists with their Joy-Filled Worker’s Democratic Paradises.

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Gram3 wrote:

I know some who are rabid but who are also deluded.

Like Paul, I have more sympathy for the deceived and confused. The ones who are just out for power and control otoh? Not so much.

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Gram3 wrote:

Lydia wrote:
It’s SGM with a pocket protector.
…in a French-cuff shirt and gold cufflinks. Mahaney taught them how to draw a crowd, and Dever (a truly intelligent man) taught them how to be an “intellectual.”

“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

(And as someone who grew up as an IQ 160 Kid Genius, I can attest that it has its problems. BIG problems.)

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Jack wrote:

I would say that IX Marks will be changing its name soon as part of this ongoing “rebranding” to something less authoritarian. The core will remain the same.

ChEKA changes its name to OGPU which changes its name to NKVD which changes its name to KGB, but the Liquidation Quotas in GULAG are met without interruption.

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Law Prof wrote:

You really don’t get that you are rushing in where angels fear to tread by propping yourselves up and teaching on your own authority

There was one angel who wasn’t afraid to go there: Lucifer.

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Christiane wrote:

Where do these folks [essentially, the Nones and Dones] go?

Like (Gram + Gramp)3, I can only speak for myself and Lesley.

We’re investing the remainder of our working lives in the setting up of a professional, but non-profit, organisation that perfects entirely new ways of creating decent jobs that are accessible to the low-paid and the unemployed (those experiencing “workplace exclusion” as it’s known in Scotland).

Lesley and I are using our God-given ability to question and challenge established assumptions and cultures on this, because we’re doing things nobody thinks are possible. And we’re praying big prayers than very few people around us are praying. In fact, you would not believe how hard it has been to persuade even two Christians round here to pray with us, as distinct from nit-picking, quarrelling, arguing, criticising and “advising” us. We expect to see people calling Jesus “King” for the first time; as well as being healed (ill-health and injury is a big factor in a lot of long-term unemployment). You know the kind of thing; the blind seeing, the deaf hearing, the poor hearing the good news and blessed is the person who doesn’t find Jesus to be a stumbling-block.

This isn’t charity or handing out sandwiches to the poor. It’s more like this fae 1 Samuel (Hannah’s song, to be exact, although strictly speaking I shouldn’t read it as it amounts to allowing a woman to teach me):

He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap;
he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honour.

Of course, that’s not the correctInterpretation of that verse. Like we give a sh**.

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

in my last quote I ascribed the phrase Like we give a sh** to God. This was not intentional…

At least his heart’s in the right place, bless him.

Best regards,
God

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PaJo wrote:

Authority is given by others who determine the worthiness of the designee. The designee remains under the authority of that worthiness and of those who appointed him/her.

And on and on it goes. Sorry, not buying the institutional hierarchy that has been on going for centuries.

All authority in heaven and on earth belongs to whom?

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Thanks for the great article, Deb. Thanks for all you do, Dee and Deb. Ditto commenters.

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@ Lowlandseer:
It just occurred to me I have seen nothing of Devers wife involved in 9 Marx.

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Robert wrote:

The sheer, naked arrogance is what gets me.

Definitely no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinist ranks! I figure at least 80+% of all arrogant church leaders on the planet are confined to that group.

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PaJo wrote:

Where else? A bar. I’d rather do that than this kind of church any day.

Unfortunately, you can’t escape bumping into New Calvinists by going to bars! They frequent them! The Acts 29 Journey Church in St. Louis (of Darrin Patrick fame) made national headlines by holding a Bible study called “Theology at the Bottleworks.” The church leaders would sip beer with tavern patrons while eisegesing the Bible between burps. Patrick did this for years before he ‘journeyed’ out of the ministry.

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Hmmm…

Mark Dever was “Ordained to the Ministry, First Baptist Church, Madisonville, KY, July 28, 1985.”

http://www.fbcmadisonville.com/staff/

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NJ wrote:

they’re all secretly into Thomas Kinkade.

Aha! You’ve put your finger on the problem! 😉

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Bridget wrote:

PaJo wrote:

Authority is given by others who determine the worthiness of the designee. The designee remains under the authority of that worthiness and of those who appointed him/her.

And on and on it goes. Sorry, not buying the institutional hierarchy that has been on going for centuries.

All authority in heaven and on earth belongs to whom?

Sorry. This isn’t the contrast I attempted to draw. The point was that authority is derived from outside oneself and it is not autonomous in its exercise.

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Mark Dever was “Pastor, New Meadows Baptist Church, Topsfield, MA, 1985-86.”

(no website for this as it apparently went belly up in the 1990s)

The ‘9 Marks’ are derived from a letter written by Dever to this church in the early 1990s to guide them in choosing a pastor. He described the things that had supposedly characterized the church and urged them to select a man who held to the same dogma. They ended up elevating fellow parishoner Andy Davis, an engineer and spouse of a deacon, to the pastorate.

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Mark Dever was “Associate Pastor, Eden Baptist Church, Cambridge, England, 1992-94.”

Like a number of other future TheGospelCoalition Councilmembers, Mark Dever was invited to serve under Roy Clements at Eden Chapel while scholars at Cambridge.

http://www.stevemaughan.com/sermons/roy-clements/

“Eden Baptist church. The minister at the time was Roy Clements….Don Carson was the supporting act, Mark Dever was the intern”

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A proto-9Marks assemblage from the opening days of Mark Dever’s current pastorate (from Sept 24, 1994 Washington Post):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1994/09/24/upcoming-events/bf38e688-c885-499e-89ed-2decd726faa7/

“The Rev. Mark E. Dever will pose the question “What’s Wrong With the Local Church?” to a seven-member panel at 7 p.m. today at Capitol Hill Metropolitan Baptist Church, 525 A St. NE. Forum panelists include Don Carson, professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago; Fred Catherwood, president of the Evangelical Alliance of Great Britain; author and theologian Carl F.H. Henry; the Rev. Bill Kynes, pastor of the national Evangelical Free Church in Annandale; and the Rev. R. Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville.”

[That’s at least four future founding Councilmembers of TGC]

Note the topic “What’s Wrong With the Local Church?” is a much more negative formulation than the later “Church Reform” and present “Healthy Church” iterations of Dever’s Marksist ideology.

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Robert wrote:

The sheer, naked arrogance is what gets me.

The Arrogance of the Predestined Elect who can do no wrong.

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@ Janna L. Chan:

Excellent advice.

And also post the deleted information here on the right side of the page under the “My Comment Was Deleted” section.

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@ Velour:
Thanks, Velour! Glad that you’re putting the deleted content in good places.

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@ Deb:
Likewise!

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Gram3 wrote:

Yes. They *claim* that they are being faithful to the Bible, but they are twisting and reshaping it to use as a mere instrument in pursuit of their power.

There ain’t nobody, an’ I mean nobody, can spin the Bible like Calvary Chapel.
Them guys have evolved it into an art form.

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Max wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

scraggy beard, watch cap, wall-to-wall cigars and big stein of beer

With the exception of the cigars (I think), you’ve just described a New Calvinist pastor at a church down the road from me.

And though it didn’t show in the pic, the Soteriology 101 article also mentioned enough tattoos for a Yakuza. Again, Thug Life.

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Bill Kinnon wrote:

A church full of happy complimentarians would be about as common as pasture full of unicorns.

Flip side, if you ever saw either one they would be fake.

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In a lot of church movements historically and at present there seems to be a hint (or maybe not so subtle reality) of utilitarian anthropology running and working underneath them. The greatest happiness is an agenda or theological – ecclesiological application or desire. People are “de-peopled” and reduced to being maneuvered, assimilated, or rejected as caricatures or extensions and projected objects in response to that decided “happiness”, the group’s highest order or perceived optimal good.

If Christ is not the embodied center of life and measure of highest good and “Great Desire” and THE locus of knowledge = you get pseudo-Christian kingdoms and thus virtues awry and skewed, at best confusing. Even when using Christian language and theo-speak in describing and trying to implement the environment.

The main issue I have with 9Marks is the usage of church contracts as part of their membership understanding. I wish there would be scholarship opened up to dialogue about this issue because I think it is the center of all the ethical and communal problems they are facing. It may help to serve reconstruction and reorientation in their movement after a process of true deconstruction and reassessment which would require open dialogue and critique.

Without going into academic goober gob and arguing this from biblical studies, systematic theology, metaphysics, and so on and so different fields that all can be explored here: Essentially, the main thesis is that JESUS himself IS the church contract. And he is rather a sufficient one that demystifies and disqualifies this seemingly new need for human made contracts in the church. And the ethical implications of that mis- or half-understanding about Jesus as church contract himself are paramount. This misapplication, I think, allows and triggers the organic misuse of all the marks in their 9Marks paradigm.

I myself am turned off and disheartened by the demeanor and type of culture (even if it is only implied and carried out in the unspoken) of which you are not *really* allowed to engage in some really good theological debate and questions and self and communal reflection. True belief and association to God, self, and others requires constant reformations, testing, and reflection and that should be a highest value not and never forfeited in participating in theology. There *should be* absolutely nothing to fear.

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Jerome wrote:

Note the topic “What’s Wrong With the Local Church?” is a much more negative formulation than the later “Church Reform” and present “Healthy Church” iterations of Dever’s Marksist ideology.

How many cults have begun on the premise that the local church had departed from what it was meant to be, and some figure claims they need to set it back on the right path?

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Christiane wrote:

I can’t imagine going to Church and seeing people being ‘disciplined’ publicly and shamed before the whole congregation, or hearing some sermon that dwells on the idolatry of male head-ship as something God approves of.

I know, what’s next? The pillory and the stocks?

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Deb wrote:

Thanks for bringing up the CHBC church covenant. We need to explore this more.

I highly recommend that you do. It was a primary instrument in my dissatisfaction with, and eventual departure from, CHBC. The way they used it in Communion services was especially brutal.

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@ Jerome:
Oh dear. Now I know where these church’s get names like Praise Factory, Praise Patrol, Praise kids, etc.

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siteseer wrote:

Christiane wrote:
I can’t imagine going to Church and seeing people being ‘disciplined’ publicly and shamed before the whole congregation, or hearing some sermon that dwells on the idolatry of male head-ship as something God approves of.
I know, what’s next? The pillory and the stocks?

Check this out if you have time. Our shaming society is interesting to read about ……and chilling

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html?_r=0

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Nancy2 wrote:

CHBC has “core seminars” on “biblical manhood and womanhood”!
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/resources/core-seminars/series/biblical-manhood-womanhood/

I’m kind of amazed they are getting away with this in dc.

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@ Christiane:
Thanks for the lecture on proper application of information. I am sure you have a higher moral conscious.

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Deb wrote:

Can you refresh my memory? Does CHBC have closed communion?

Bearing in mind this data is almost 15 years old, but when I was there it was still open. VERY reluctantly open. Dever was very up-front in his sermons about wanting communion to be fully closed to non-covenanted members.

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mot wrote:

I hate it every time I type it, but the Southern Baptist Denomination is dying quickly. People like your mom have made so many sacrifices for the the SBC over the years, but she is no longer wanted and is being replaced by the YRR who are so young and indoctrinated they are clueless about Jesus and how a group of people devoted to him works.

I say this as one who decades ago was baptized in an SBC church, was the first church in which I was a member, so I’m not purely disinterested (or uninterested), but if it’s to die, let it die, if the people in the pews have become so undiscerning that they let the wolves in, then let it die. Jesus does not need the Southern Baptist Conference or any man-made institution, the sacrifices that moms made for the SBC were made for Jesus, and those sacrifices will be remembered by Him–and if they were not, if they were truly made just to promote the greatness of a temporal institution, then it’s good that they go up in smoke, because that’s where they were going regardless.

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@ Christiane:

It was an example of the shaming culture bandwagon. Whether it is church, work, etc. In fact, churches use the same tactics we read about in the article.

I think her tweet was stupid. but Not one person asked her what she meant or to clarify as it went viral (with only 170 followers). She was condemned. She lost her job and reputation smeared. Same with the other examples.

At least we have discussions here. Sorry my link did not meet your standards.

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@ Eeyore:
I remember discussions about this on pastor blogs years ago. I got the impression more and more SBC Neo Cal pastors were making the case for closed communication tied to church discipline issues, too. They were treating it like a sacrament that could even be withheld on members– which is not Baptist at all.

After learning about the “keys” later on, it all started to make more sense. The elders could decide to withhold communion based on their own opinion of your spiritual standing.

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Eeyore wrote:

The way they used it in Communion services was especially brutal.

The creepy part about that to me is the covenant is recited as if communion is about re-affirming the church covenant rather than thanksgiving for what Christ has accomplished for us and looking forward to the consummation of the Kingdom. Reciting the church covenant takes the spotlight away from the New Covenant Christ inaugurated at the Last Supper.

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Gram3 wrote:

The creepy part about that to me is the covenant is recited as if communion is about re-affirming the church covenant rather than thanksgiving for what Christ has accomplished for us and looking forward to the consummation of the Kingdom.

It’s brainwashing if you ask me. The local church and/or elders become central to the Christian’s walk and not Christ.

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Dever was very up-front in his sermons about wanting communion to be fully closed to non-covenanted members.

If, on due and fair investigation, it were proven that Mr Dever did indeed believe and teach that only believers of his own sect should be invited to share bread and wine in Jesus’ name, then the remainder of the Church would be obligated to have nothing further to do with him. The concept of “closed communion” is the very heart and soul of what the Bible means by “division”.

Closed communion is a feature of denominations that believe in some version of the literal presence of Christ in the Eucharist, along with the apostle Paul’s warning about possible judgement for not discerning the Lord’s body, and the abuses coming with it. Since they don’t believe in sacraments, what the 9 Marx inner circle wants to do is teach it in conjunction with their ideas on church discipline. If excommunication from one 9 Marx church means no communing in any of them, but you can’t officially leave the fold without first being safely tucked away in a new one, you must either submit to their discipline, or walk away from your vows and written membership covenant. If possible, they will try to pursue you to your next church to make sure you’re still getting the discipline they think you should have, even if conviction and conscience are in play.

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Lydia wrote:

@ Christiane:

It was an example of the shaming culture bandwagon. Whether it is church, work, etc. In fact, churches use the same tactics we read about in the article.

I think her tweet was stupid. but Not one person asked her what she meant or to clarify as it went viral (with only 170 followers). She was condemned. She lost her job and reputation smeared. Same with the other examples.

And all the Righteous who piled on her got full confirmation of their Righteousness from all the other Righteous Ones. Instant doublepluswarmfeelies.

Beware of the Righteous saints who have never been caught.

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Line 4 ‘was’ should read ‘laws’

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NJ wrote:

Closed communion is a feature of denominations that believe in some version of the literal presence of Christ in the Eucharist, along with the apostle Paul’s warning about possible judgement for not discerning the Lord’s body, and the abuses coming with it. Since they don’t believe in sacraments, what the 9 Marx inner circle wants to do is teach it in conjunction with their ideas on church discipline.

9 Marks believes in being hateful. That’s what closed communion is about and demeaning dear saints.

As someone pointed out, Mark Dever/9 Mark wants closed communion at Capitol Hill Baptist Church but is in a bind because of all of the 9 Marks fans who visit CHBC and what an affront it would be to them to be denied communion!

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Dever was very up-front in his sermons about wanting communion to be fully closed to non-covenanted members.
If, on due and fair investigation, it were proven that Mr Dever did indeed believe and teach that only believers of his own sect should be invited to share bread and wine in Jesus’ name, then the remainder of the Church would be obligated to have nothing further to do with him. The concept of “closed communion” is the very heart and soul of what the Bible means by “division”.

Nick,

Mark Dever’s beliefs about having closed communion have been written about and are on the internet. I’ve read them previously and was in shock. It may also be on the 9 Marks website.

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I know of other Protestant denominations that have closed communion… I also know of a demonenation that will not acept people into membership unless they have baptised by dunking three times foward… once for the son, once for G&d, and once for the HS..

They would not acepted that I was forward dunked only once! With that, I did not go back…

It is all about marketing their “brand” which they think is superior to other “brands”…

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I wonder what “good standing” and “gospel is preached” means? What about a “free will baptist” with weekly alter calls? I can see the Neo-Cals saying that might not be the “gospel” as they define it!

Deb wrote:

With regards to my query about whether CHBC practices ‘closed communion’, I believe I have found the answer over on the 9Marks website – Mailbag 17.
Here is a quote by Jonathan Leeman who answers the Mailbag questions.
To be clear, my church adheres not to “closed communion” but “close communion.” We don’t believe you have to be a member of our church to receive the Lord’s Supper. Rather, we fence the table by saying you should be a member in good standing of some church where the gospel is preached.
“Close” communion, NOT “closed” communion.  Apparently, there are three types of communion:  ‘open’, ‘closed’, and ‘close’.

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My way or the High Way… (or in this case, the low, damned way!)

Eeyore wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
The creepy part about that to me is the covenant is recited as if communion is about re-affirming the church covenant rather than thanksgiving for what Christ has accomplished for us and looking forward to the consummation of the Kingdom. Reciting the church covenant takes the spotlight away from the New Covenant Christ inaugurated at the Last Supper.
ExACTly. Communion goes from being the ultimate expression of Gospel to the ultimate expression of Law. All in the name of (as several other comments here already noted) Proper Church Discipline.

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Deb wrote:

With regards to my query about whether CHBC practices ‘closed communion’, I believe I have found the answer over on the 9Marks website – Mailbag 17.

Here is a quote by Jonathan Leeman who answers the Mailbag questions.

To be clear, my church adheres not to “closed communion” but “close communion.” We don’t believe you have to be a member of our church to receive the Lord’s Supper. Rather, we fence the table by saying you should be a member in good standing of some church where the gospel is preached.

“Close” communion, NOT “closed” communion.  Apparently, there are three types of communion:  ‘open’, ‘closed’, and ‘close’.

So weird. Everybody growing up in an sbc church got baptized as a kid, probably in elementary school.

We have some statement about communion and it says it is by intinction but I wasn’t paying close attention and thought it was by Instinct! Ha. Had to look the other up.

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@ Deb:
Only the really hard-core Southern Baptist churches practice “closed” communion (their church members only). I always had a problem with churches while visiting them during a communion service. It’s as if they didn’t recognize other believers as a member of the Body of Christ.

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Deb wrote:

Not a Pokemon fan this go round either!

In our area over the summer, Pokemon Go had the benefit of reducing the amount of teen partying, vandalism, joy riding, etc. Some parents had the mind-bending thought that, “Oh well, at least Susie and Johnny are chasing invisible monsters instead of raiding the liquor cabinet.” Kids today! 😉

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Jerome wrote:

Praise Factory

Praise factory? PRAISE FACTORY?!?! These folks really don’t know how they sound.

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@ Lea:
Some years back Mark Dever and Al Mohler both stated that they would deny communion to Ligon Duncan because he was a paedobaptist. Sam Storms made this comment about it

“Let me repeat that. Because of Duncan ‘s paedo-baptist convictions, both Dever and Mohler would prohibit his participation in the Eucharist. They would deny to him partnership in the table of our Lord. They would withhold the bread and the cup from him because of his disagreement with them on who are the proper recipients of Christian baptism.”

The whole story and context can be found here.
http://www.samstorms.com/all-articles/post/piper–grudem–dever–et-al–on-baptism–the-lords-table–and-church-membership–just-how–tog

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Lea wrote:

I don’t recall it every happening to me in a Protestant church

I’ve actually visited churches which had closed communion and the non-members were asked to leave before the communion service. That makes a believer bought-by-the-blood of Jesus feel like a lesser citizen of the Kingdom (at least in that church’s little kingdom).

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http://sbcvoices.com/my-beliefs-about-the-extent-of-communion/#comment-230107

“I attended a 9Marks Weekender and the subject of close communion came up. CHBC practices close (not closed) communion at their church. . . .visitors may if they are baptized (believer’s baptism) and not under discipline with their church. . . .Ligon Duncan was mentioned, as he has taken communion there. . . .Mark said that Ligon has been baptized as a believer and is in good standing with his church and is thus welcome when he visits.”

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

painless to cast an excommunication spell on someone you don’t like.

I really hate the cheapening of excommunication.

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

What this shows, I think, is just how little the sharing in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit means to these people. Would they send someone to the electric chair for disagreeing with them on baptism? Would they pull the trigger? Calvin did, of course, but that’s splitting hairs

Never underestimate what Utter Righteousness is capable of.

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Lowlandseer wrote:

R D Culver grounds the idea of closed communion in the Baptist view of the nature of the church. Quoting AH Strong he says that “Baptists regard a local church as that smaller company of regenerateprsons who in any given community, unite themselves together in accordance with Christ’s laws. In this definition regenerate church membership and obedience to Christ’s was are included. On this basis some Baptists have argued that the only true churches in the world are Baptist churches and others who practise believers immersion and congregational polity. To call a Presbyterian local group a ‘church’, then, is not a matter of accuracy but only of ‘courtesy’. Further, since the ordinance of the Lords Supper is held to belong to the local church, unimmersed people, who by definition of the church cannot be church members, are excluded, hence many Baptist churches practice ‘close’ communion. It is partly out of a background such as this that Southern Batistsave persisted in staying out of ecumenical and other inter-churchorganizations. They are not unfriendly, nor do most Baptists deny the catholicity of the church. Rather they feel an essential principle of ecclesiology is at stake.”
(Culver: Systematic Theology, Ecclesiology, p 804)
Seen on this light, Mark Dever is reiterating long established SBC principles and not really saying anything new.

I have been a member of a baptist church for almost 40 years, and all baptist churches in my area are “close” communion. My home less than an hours drive from where Mark Dever grew up.
Ahem, I’m just glad Mark left Southern Kentucky!

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Robin C wrote:

I believe the Neo Cal baptist’s are biting the hands that feed them.

So true. The older folks have tithed and supported missions, but these youngins do not want these older folks. If these older folks leave or are forced out there will not be very much money for these youngins to have church with. It is a very poor strategy.

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Bryan wrote:

Mark Dever faithfully preaches the. word. Thankful for his service to the kingdom.

That depends on how one defines “faithfully.” Leeman as much as admits that they are imposing something as, effectively, law with no explicit commands. I am not thankful for Dever’s insistence that females are subordinate to males simply because XX and not XY. That is simply not in the text and is more stuff like the “keys” that 9Marks just makes up. And ESS, which 9Marks has taught, though it has probably been scrubbed from the internet by now. So, no, I don’t think the dictionary meaning of “faithfully” fits. Those are essential to faithful presentation of the gospel, according to 9Marks. If you add to the gospel, you are preaching another gospel. And now everyone knows why I got keyed out of a 9Marksy church.

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Gram3 wrote:

Which kingdom?

I still recall that Dever excommunicated 256 members from his kingdom in the mid-1990s … for not coming to church regularly! He claimed they had not taken the radical nature of conversion seriously. Perhaps they just didn’t like his radical authoritarian way of doing church!

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Deb wrote:

@ Law Prof:
I can understand your sentiments, but remember that some of these Neo-Cal pastors are not being transparent with pastor search committees.

I understand fully, it can be hard. But we have the Holy Spirit, we shouldn’t just have to rely on great hair and smooth talk and resumes and references. There’s discernment in every believer. Every church catastrophe I’ve run into with the family over the last decade was a situation in which I knew something was wrong from virtually the first moment I got to know the people there, but there was something I wanted that wasn’t quite the right thing, and so fell for glitz and big welcomes and the typical love bombs–and just ignored the clear voice until it was a flat out scream and we had to get out to preserve our faith and keep our children from more abuse.

It was my fault the whole way, willing to bet a lot of those committee members who pick the smilin young feller lying through his teeth about his intentions had to ignore a lot of troubling thoughts as well.

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PaJo wrote:

One’s position will be determined in some degree by what one believes communion to be. If it is a representation, an ordinance a presentation or a memorial, then open communion makes sense. But if it is a sacrament, a uniting of a physical action with a mystical reality, then closed communion makes sense. The definition of what it means to be in communion is the crux of the matter.

Actually, from my observation, it stems from how broadly the church in question interprets the “examine yourselves” chapter in I Corinthians. Even in theologically “sacramental” denominations, when push comes to shove most pastors there practice open communion where possible. But for those who read the “examine yourselves” passage with no historical context, they close communion to make sure people aren’t committing “suicide by wafer”. The ironic thing is, they end up taking the duty of examination upon themselves and out of the hands of the individuals concerned. Ultimately, they don’t trust people to make the right decision.

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PaJo wrote:

A little comment re: closed communion: it is entirely possible that i am wrong but it is my understanding that until ~150 years ago, no one practiced open communion. Open communion is a fairly recent innovation.
One’s position will be determined in some degree by what one believes communion to be.

I appreciate your piping up with historical perspectives! The following is not an argument lobbed back at you – it’s a crystallising of my own thoughts which, again, are not God’s final word!

I must admit I don’t know how long the Church of England has practiced open communion – I am, technically, a member of the C of E, having been baptised (ed.) as a bairn and confirmed at 12 or 13 – and I’ve never known anything else here in the UK. With the informational proviso that the Baptist Union of Scotland is enormously different from, say, the SBC – they have no formal affiliation together in any sense – it also practices open communion.

I suppose one might say that open communion isn’t new at all, having been practiced by the church in Acts! Though I realise that’s not what you were saying. I see what you meant by it depending partly on one’s understanding of communion. It also depends, I think, on one’s understanding of “church” and, indeed, of Jesus since the Church is His body and, more to the point, is His, period. If my group is the only group of believers on earth, then indeed I should share communion with nobody else. Refusing to share it with a given person affirms my claim, ISTM, that he/she is not in Christ.

It’s one thing to deny communion to someone I’ve never met – I accept that this does make sense if one genuinely fears that person may eat and drink judgement on themselves. But to deny it to someone I do know, over secondary doctrine, I believe is sectarian and factional. That’s the tragedy.

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Nick Bulbeck wrote:

having been baptist as a bairn

Just spotted that typo which, in context, really muddies the meaning. I meant to type: having been baptised as a bairn…

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PaJo wrote:

One’s position will be determined in some degree by what one believes communion to be.

Yes, and I have voluntarily abstained from communion a few times because I do not believe it is sacramental as well as some other personal reasons. That was a matter of conscience and definitely *not* a rule for anyone else! I can imagine there are some with a sacramental view who would abstain in a Baptist church, as well, since it is considered memorial and not sacramental. Once upon a time, Baptist churches invited all who have professed faith and been baptized to join in the Lord’s Supper. I don’t even remember immersion being specified. The YRR have made some changes that seem much more aligned with a sacramental view, and they have tied it firmly to membership covenants. And that has resulted in a move toward delayed baptism.

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A. Amos Love wrote:

But – What does the Bible have to say about “Communion?”
Does your Bible Version even have the word “Communion?”
Many english versions do NOT.
In the Bible…
Did any of His Disciples ever “Take Communion?” “Receive Communion?”
“Give Communion?” “Celebrate Communion?” “Serve Communion?”
If, in the Bible, His Disciples did NOT Do these things?
Why do WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body, His Servants…
Why do WE? Do these things?

Technically, the baptist churches in my area don’t call it “communion”. It is referred to as “the Lord’s Supper”. That is in the Bible. I just use the word “communion” on TWW because that’s what other commenters use.

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A. Amos Love wrote:

If, in the Bible, His Disciples did NOT Do these things?

Why do WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Body, His Servants…

Why do WE? Do these things?

Even before the sacred Scriptures were first written down, the early Christians gathered for prayer and for ‘the Thanksgiving’ (Eucharist) which is also known as ‘the Lord’s Supper’. It pre-dates the writing of the New Testament and the formation of the canon by the early councils

Why did they do it?
Because Our Lord had asked them to do it.

Why do we do it?
Because it is a part of what the apostles preserved and handed down to us through the centuries.

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Lea wrote:

they seem to have gone the opposite way with baptism, like if we can’t baptize babies we will wait till they are full grown adults?

Contrast Dever’s claims and Spurgeon’s reality:

http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/the-baptism-of-children-at-capitol-hill-baptist-church/

“the practice of baptizing pre-teenage children is of recent development (largely early 20th century) and of limited geography (largely limited to the United States, and places where American evangelicals have exercised great influence). Baptists in the past were known for waiting to baptize until the believers were adults.”

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols28-30/chs1785.pdf

“What would you think if I introduced six children to you whom I saw, one after another, last week, and who all came forward with eagerness to say, “We have been washed in the blood of Jesus and we want to join His Church”? I said, “Come along, my children; I am glad to see you.” When I talked with them and heard what God had done for them, I had great confidence in proposing them to the Church! I have not found young converts turn back. I usually find that these young ones who are introduced early to the Church hold on and become our best members! Do not refuse to receive them, lest it should ever happen to you as it did to one who was cruelly prudent. A child had loved the Savior for some two or three years, and she desired to make a confession of her faith. She begged her mother that she might be baptized. The mother said that she thought she was too young. The child went to bed broken-hearted, and in the morning a great tear stood in her eye. She had joined the church triumphant above! Do not let your child ever have to complain of you, that you will not believe in its truthful love to Jesus. Do you expect perfection in a child before it joins the church? Then I hope you are perfect yourself”

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Nancy2 – Christiane

Thanks for the replys.

And have you ever noticed this,
In 1st Cor it says, Jesus said,
“this is my body which is broken for you.”

But NOT a bone of His body was broken on the cross
in order to fulfill prophecy.

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,
Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you:
this do in remembrance of me.
1 Cor 11:24 KJV

He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
Ps 34:20 KJV

For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled,
A bone of him shall not be broken.
John 19:36 KJV

If not a bone was broken;

What did Jesus mean when He said,
“This is my body which is broken for you?”
———–

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.

{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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@ Gram3:
Yes! Baptists are supposed to be messy.

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@ NJ:
This SO resonated with me, given that the great sacred choral works are my first and greatest music love. My husband and I have had season tickets for the local professional art-music choir for a few years. One of the concerts two seasons ago featured British composer John Tavener’s gorgeous “Svyati,” with the principal cellist from our local professional symphony. Tavener (who died in 2013) was a convert from the Anglican faith to the Orthodox faith, and his conversion influenced his compositional style.

Tavener wrote about this work: “The cello represents the Priest or Ikon of Christ, and should play at a distance from the choir, perhaps at the opposite end of the building. As is [sic] Greek drama, choir and priest are in dialogue with each other. Since the cello represents the Ikon of Christ, it must be played without any sentiment of a Western character, but should derive from the chanting of the Eastern Orthodox Church.”

The performance we attended, held at a large Roman Catholic church, was utterly beautiful and profound and worshipful. (Actually, many of these “secular” choral concerts we attend serve as worship experiences for me—pretty much the only ones nowadays.)

Back to the topic at hand… Apologies if I’ve gone too far OT.

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Deb wrote:

With regards to my query about whether CHBC practices ‘closed communion’, I believe I have found the answer over on the 9Marks website – Mailbag 17.
Here is a quote by Jonathan Leeman who answers the Mailbag questions.
To be clear, my church adheres not to “closed communion” but “close communion.” We don’t believe you have to be a member of our church to receive the Lord’s Supper. Rather, we fence the table by saying you should be a member in good standing of some church where the gospel is preached.
“Close” communion, NOT “closed” communion.  Apparently, there are three types of communion:  ‘open’, ‘closed’, and ‘close’.

This, in a nutshell, but without the close/closed terminology, is what the OPC church plant’s planting pastor (formerly Calvary Chapel church planter) told us when explaining why we couldn’t participate in communion. He also said something about church membership being necessary because Church Discipline. At the time, I had no idea what he meant. After we left (horrified by the Calvinism) and I found TWW, I came to understand what he meant: elder power and control over the members.

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Lea wrote:

Weirdly, they seem to have gone the opposite way with baptism, like if we can’t baptize babies we will wait till they are full grown adults? There is no in betweeN?

That’s because when they’re full-growm adults, their signatures are binding on legal contracts.
Like Dry Pledges at Altar Calls 100 years ago, they can bindingly sign the Membership Covenant when they come up out of the dunk tank.