9Marks Conferences Are Coming!

"9Marks exists to equip church leaders with a biblical vision and practical resources for displaying God’s glory to the nations through healthy churches. To that end, we want to see churches characterized by these nine marks of health:  Preaching, Biblical Theology, The Gospel, Conversion, Evangelism, Membership, Discipline, Discipleship, and Leadership."

9Marks.org / 'about' page

https://9marks.org/First Five Years – 9Marks Conference

It's that time of year…  9Marks is hitting the road again to train pastors and future pastors in how to "do church" the 9Marks way.  For the next two days, Dever and gang will be in Fort Worth, Texas – home of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.  Perhaps for the first time a non-Calvinist will be speaking at one of the conferences.  Can you guess who?  (See screen shot of the speakers above).

Paige Patterson, who is a non-Calvinist, must have recently adopted the mantra — if you can't fight 'em, join 'em.   He has been at the helm of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary since 2003, and before that he served as president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.  Patterson's claim to fame is that he and Paul Pressler masterminded the SBC's Conservative Resurgence.  Little did he realize that Al Mohler would use the exact same strategy to push Calvinism throughout the SBC from the seminaries to the churches to the NAMB and IMB to other SBC entities. 

It's hard to believe it was just a decade ago that Patterson and Mohler participated in a debate regarding Calvinism at the 2006 SBC Annual Meeting in Greensboro. The Baptist Press reported on it in an article entitled Patterson, Mohler: Calvinism shouldn't divide SBC, which I highly recommend.  In that article, Patterson shared an observation with which I wholeheartedly agree.  One of the concerns he has with some Calvinists is that there has been…

— a failure of Reformed pastors to be “completely forthright” with pulpit committees during interviews. “This is a concern not only about Calvinists,” Patterson said. “It is a concern about people who happen to be dispensationalists, like me. It's a concern about any position which you hold." There should be “full disclosure of what you believe and what you plan to do once you become the pastor of that church." 

Patterson voiced that concern ten years ago, and I happen to know of a church where this has recently occurred.  Last fall the pastor search committee of a small rural church recommended a pastoral candidate to the predominately non-Calvinistic congregation, and they voted unanimously for him to come and pastor the church.  About a month ago a member of the church met with the pastor and asked him about his theological beliefs.  During that conversation the pastor, who had been at the church for around 10 months, finally admitted he was a Calvinist.  When this individual asked the pastor why he didn't reveal this to the pastor search committee, he responded:  "They didn't ask."  The church members are just now finding out that their pastor is Reformed, and a good number of them are asking the question "What is a Calvinist?"

That's a problem!  The pastor explained to the congregation that he responded in depth to the pastor search committee's questionnaire.  When asked what books had been important to him in his ministry, he included 9Marks of a Healthy Church.  It is doubtful that the pastor search committee knew anything about this book, but the title no doubt sounded convincing to them.

Danny Akin, Patterson's successor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, has stated that pastoral candidates should lay all their cards out on the tabie regarding their theological beliefs.  If you're a Calvinist, say so!  Through our seven years of blogging we know from the many testimonies we have received that in so many cases the pastoral candidates avoid bringing up Calvinism.  They may use terminology like 'reformed' or 'doctrines of grace' in an attempt to skirt the issue.  Hopefully, this important matter will be addressed at the 9Marks conference taking place tomorrow and Wednesday.

Here is a brief description of that 9Marks event:

http://9marks.org/firstfiveyears/2016/

And here is a video describing the conference:

Of course, some of the same pastors who attended Together for the Gospel will no doubt be shelling out more money for yet another conference (of course, they go home with an armful of FREE 9Marks books!)

http://9marks.org/firstfiveyears/2016/

The next conference on the calendar is a 9Marks Weekender, which will be held September 15-19 at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C.  9Marks schedules three of these events each year, and they have been occurring for quite a while.  According to the conference description, they host around 100 pastors, seminarians, etc., so imagine how many have attended this weekender over the years. 

Then September 30-October 19Marks at Southeastern will take place.  The first one was held back in 2009, and we will always remember that C.J. Mahaney accompanied Mark Dever to Wake Forest.  The conference theme was "God Exposed", and Mahaney's spoke on 'Expository Faithfulness".  This year's theme is Discipleship.

Two days later, 9Marks has a one-day event in Indianapolis called Life Together: The Church and Biblical Counseling.  Yes, 'Biblical Counseling' is growing in popularity among the Neo-Cal crowd, and we are concerned that some serious problems are being kept 'in house' with biblical counselors (who are untrained professionals) treating problems inside the walls of the church.  No doubt there are instances where 'blblical counseling' is not adequate in treating certain conditions.  We have addressed biblical counseling before and will be doing some follow-up posts soon because we are very concerned!

The final conference for the year will be 9Marks at Cedarville which will take place November 9-10.  'Church Membership' will be the topic of discussion.  Just another one of those nine marks. 

9Marks also holds an annual conference at Southern Seminary and will most likely be planning one for Midwestern Seminary as well.  Can there be any doubt that more and more churches are affiliating with 9Marks?  There have been quite a few complaints over the years against the 9Marks style of pastoring, so much so that at the 2016 Together for the Gospel one of the breakout sessions (hosted by Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman) was entitled:  "Don't Be a 9Marxist"

It would be interesting to know who is paying for these pastors to attend these conferences (travel, food, conference fee, books, etc.).  Is they any doubt that quite a few Neo-Cal churches are financing these outings?

One of my biggest concerns is that the more Southern Baptist pastors (in particular) attend these events and put into practice the instructions they receive from 9Marks leaders, the less autonomous the local Southern Baptist church will be.

Looks like the number of Calvinista conferences just keeps growing and growing and growing!  As long as there is a monetary incentive, the number of events will be on the rise…  Thoughts?

Comments

9Marks Conferences Are Coming! — 688 Comments

  1. Max wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    If our readers don’t mind, could you please mention the state, region, or country in which you live when you comment next time?

    The Show-Me state.

    Max, my state will show you the best bourbon, horse racing and the first Baptist Pope!

  2. Nancy2 wrote:

    It ain’t nuthin’ but trouble when a Southern Kentuckian tries to order French fries at the Graham Micky D’s or BK.

    I’m trying to imagine what trouble you could get into asking for fries at a fast food joint. There seems to be a general affinity towards Southern things here. Heck, we have the biggest NASCAR track in the north.

  3. Lydia wrote:

    Max, my state will show you the best bourbon, horse racing and the first Baptist Pope!

    Oh well, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.

  4. Deb wrote:

    Should you prefer to keep your geographic location private, not a problem!

    Muff Potter, free thinker, heretic, and all-round’ reprobate, Southern California, at the Northeastern foot of the Santa Ana mountain range.
    The area I live in is part of the Bible belt west, Orange County was its birthplace and over the years its territories extended East into Arizona and New Mexico.
    Dunno if there’s a neo-cal bastion or 9marks outfit close by, but there’s an Evangelical Free Church in my neighborhood. It may have gone neo-cal, just checked their site and the head honcho has the shaved head do, just like a certain gang of neo-cals East of the Miss.

  5. mirele wrote:

    I just wanted to confirm that the documents collected by the Seattle Presbytery confirm that Tim Gaydos and Tyler Gorsline of “A Seattle Church” was mixed up in the First Presbyterian Church of Seattle business, with some members of the session thinking that “A Seattle Church” might want to merge with FPC Seattle. However, it appears from the recollections of one of the members of the session that “A Seattle Church” simply wanted to lease the facilities of FPC Seattle for a year. That’s it.

    Thank you for this and for the other feedback. This is not my former church, although it is part of my former presbytery, so I’ve never been close to the situation. However, I did hear that the PC-USA congregation had dwindled to attendance in the teens, and they started getting new attendance about the time the “merger” was discussed–and I think this is the time that Gaydos was involved. Like I said, I’m piecing together what I have been able to do from secular reporting, denomination reporting and word on the street.

    There is no “merger” in the polity of the PC-USA…so it must have been sort of odd to start with, or a stealth merger. When the Schulzes reneged on their PC-USA ordinations, that must have been something of a turning point.

    I mentioned in a previous post that all but one of my former congregations had left the PC-USA, and three of them kept their building. The one that did not keep their building split and met in a mortuary for awhile. Now, they are larger than the remaining group, which can’t pay the bills on the church building.

    Of the other two, one left and kept is property intact, as well as most of its people; the other had to buy the building from the presbytery–and in a really remarkable move, many churches from the area (not Presbyterian!) contributed to that fund.

    The church that has not left the denomination has waaaaayyyyyy too many assets to re=pay for them, and so they are probably going to grit their teeth and stay. I don’t think that church could sustain the loss of a split, as they have lost so many to Mars Hill in the past that what was once 7000 members must be about half that now. But like I said, I’m not really in the loop anymore in the Presbyterian world.

    Thank you for doing some of the research. I read the papers but the legal documents make my eyes cross.

    Oh, Dee/Deb–this may come as a big surprise, but I am in the Pacific Northwest. :0)

  6. Lydia wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    I once tried to explain grits to North Easterners. Never again. :o)

    I had my friend from Long Island eating them on the regular!

  7. @ PaJo:

    Interesting post, I took a look at this too. Did you see this article?

    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-first-presbyterians-breakaway-vote-spurs-fight-over-real-estate/

    I don’t think it’s a “recovering biblical church membership” takeover, but it seems like the Schulzes and Tim Gaydos are trying to get slices of a $25 million land deal under the guise of leaving PCUSA over homosexuality issues. First Presbyterian is a whole city block on what certainly looks like prime real estate. And, Gaydos’s A Seattle Church (really?) does not have a campus.

    Commenting from the Big D Dallas, Texas, the home of mile-wide and inch-deep, where the Methodists have granted me asylum from The Village Church’s Mutaween.

  8. I’m from the Western end of the Bluegrass State, and the original home of Maranatha Campus Ministries. Not that we like to admit that… And that might narrow things down too much, for those who know the history of fringe shepherding groups of the 1970s.

  9. Stan wrote:

    @ PaJo:
    Interesting post, I took a look at this too. Did you see this article?
    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/seattle-first-presbyterians-breakaway-vote-spurs-fight-over-real-estate/
    I don’t think it’s a “recovering biblical church membership” takeover, but it seems like the Schulzes and Tim Gaydos are trying to get slices of a $25 million land deal under the guise of leaving PCUSA over homosexuality issues. First Presbyterian is a whole city block on what certainly looks like prime real estate. And, Gaydos’s A Seattle Church (really?) does not have a campus.
    Commenting from the Big D Dallas, Texas, the home of mile-wide and inch-deep, where the Methodists have granted me asylum from The Village Church’s Mutaween.

    Hey there, Stan. I read that article, and a few others, but I have to say that secular reporters do a GREAT job at some things…a lot better than the religious media in some ways…but when it comes to getting down to polity, it’s murky to them. Well, it’s murky to a lot of us!

    The price of land in Seattle is AWFUL. To tell you the truth, that $20M amount is way low even these few months later. That property could be sold and even with a permanent right of use in the buildings put on top of it, the owners could clear much more than $20M at this point.

    These guys hardly EVER go after low-cost sites, low income peoples.

    It’s also hard to figure out because in a lot of ways, what the PC-USA has decided in MANY issues (beyond the gay issue) has been polarizing, and I can see how people would want to separate from the PC-USA. Like I said, most of the congregations with which I have been affiliated in my three score years have separated. But they did it within the polity of the PC-USA. The pastors did not renounce their ordinations, but had them transferred in accordance with the order established by the denomination they affiliated with. They separated their congregation in accordance with the polity of the denomination they themselves had affiliated themselves with. One pastor I know could not continue in PC-USA because of some of their decisions…but he honored his vow to them, and left being a PASTOR instead. That was his way to deal with this honorably.

    Anyway, I’m sketchy as to what happened…I’m piecing the story together with a small amount of time, and a limited amount of interest, at this point…but I do think it interesting that the polity of the Presbyterians did *something* to waylay the stealth takeover.

  10. Lydia wrote:

    my state will show you the best bourbon, horse racing and the first Baptist Pope!

    …also Hot Brown (Gramp3) and Derby pie(Gram3)…

  11. Deb wrote:

    If our readers don’t mind, could you please mention the state, region, or country in which you live when you comment next time?

    As my screen name suggests, I live in Japan, currently in Niigata Prefecture (on the NW coast of the main island). Unless someone from Australia or Cambodia is commenting, I think I win the prize for farthest from NC…

    And I can assure Matt — I have no idea who the pastor in question is.

  12. I may be the exception that proves the rule on the issue of our far-flung TWW community. I’m right here in Raleigh NC, don’t know Dee or Deb, and have no clue whose name is being dragged through the mid 🙂

    As far as hostile Calvinist takeovers being hearsay, I can testify from personal experience that it is happening. My husband was a bivocational staff member at a small rural-ish church within 30 minutes of here. A couple of years ago a new seminary graduate was hired as pastor and immediately started a Sunday evening study of the 9marks book. I was suspicious thanks to my reading here and the testimony of many commenters.

    It proved out later that his agenda was to convert the church to the elder-led, covenant membership, accountability group based 9marks clone.

    The pastor’s failure to make the conversion was due to a pretty stubborn deacon board who refused to go down that path. That pastor is now gone, as are we for other reasons, but the church is without a pastor and has dwindled down to almost nothing.

    It is not sour grapes or slander to say that this is happening. We may not know what any individual’s motives are for going down the path of taking over and changing a church’s theology and practice from inside, but to deny that it is happening and that people and congregations are being harmed is just stupid. There are too many witnesses.

  13. @ Gram3:
    Oh yes, the famous Brown Hotel hot brown. My mom allowed herself one per year. That is how sinful they are. And don’t try one at home! There are no shortcuts.

    As to bourbon, I only imbibe if it is in a pecan and cream concoction then hand dipped in dark chocolate by the little old ladies at Muths. A century old family owned confectioner. Yum!

  14. roebuck wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    The Lone Star State.

    Don’t keep us hanging, man! Nevada? Arizona? What is it?

    Lone Star State is TEXAS.
    Arizona is the COPPER Star State and Nevada the SILVER Star.

  15. Nancy2 wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    I’m really hoping Charles Spurgeon will chime in with his geographic location because I’d love to know from whence he is engaging in the 21st century activity of blogging. If he does report in with that information, we’ll know where Finney is as well since they utilize the very same computer.

    I believe the Siamese twins, Finney-Spurgeon, are both on Mir, the Russian space station. They’re out there!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUusE8Du18Y

  16. @ Bookbolter:
    Thanks for your comment and confirmation that there is a definite trend to convert Non-Calvinist churches to the 'correct' theology.

    Since you’re right here in Raleigh, Dee and I would love to meet you for coffee or lunch.

    If interested, just shoot us an email or call on the TWW hotline. :-)

  17. @ PaJo:

    I’m on the same page about the PCUSA, and that this case seems different than the usual PCUSA to ECO defections.

    It seems like the idea was the PCUSA could check a completely rogue church by holding their property, and this may be happening here. But now, it just forces member churches to support progressive ideology they may not agree with.

    I wonder what the PCA would do if a bunch of their confessional churches wanted to leave over TGC’s shenanigans.

  18. Nancy2 wrote:

    disabled

    Exactly, where do all of these Biblical “mandates” go with family members who are disabled? Consider husbands, too.

    A friend who has left his childhood denomination speaks of the mandate to not eat fish on Fridays that one day was no longer required – and the church discipline surrounding that teaching back in the day.

  19. JYJames wrote:

    A friend who has left his childhood denomination speaks of the mandate to not eat fish on Fridays that one day was no longer required – and the church discipline surrounding that teaching back in the day.

    Someone told me their pentacostal preacher one day just came in and said they couldn’t wear jean skirts anymore and she thought that pretty much came out of nowhere – and ended up leaving the church.

  20. Kimberly Rock-Shelton wrote:

    The issue is the sheer viciousness the group from Paige Patterson up through Al Mohler have attacked people who don’t believe as they do. Mohler got the job at SBTS after Honeycutt resigned rather than hold a “heresy” trial for his friend on staff.

    We’re certainly seeing that rotten *fruit* at NeoCalvinist churches that have also adopted the 9Marks of an [un] Healthy Church. As people here have commented that there is only ONE mark of a healthy *Biblical* church: LOVE. And Love didn’t make it on to Mark Dever’s top 9.

    The loveless 9Marks has done so much damage to so many lives. Those men should be ashamed. But they are not. They are proud.

    Excommunications right and left at my former church for any infraction.

  21. Bookbolter wrote:

    It proved out later that his agenda was to convert the church to the elder-led, covenant membership, accountability group based 9marks clone.
    The pastor’s failure to make the conversion was due to a pretty stubborn deacon board who refused to go down that path. That pastor is now gone, as are we for other reasons, but the church is without a pastor and has dwindled down to almost nothing.

    Good for your elder board for standing their ground. I will pray for your little church.

    I have lived through the 9Marks authoritarian NeoCalvinist horrors. They destroyed lives and reputations at my ex-church.

    Here’s my YELP review about my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.
    It’s the 1-star review. If YELP permitted us to give black holes, I would. Alas, the lowest I was permitted to go was 1-star for my ex-church.

    I consolidated what I learned for others to learn. If you find it helpful, please vote it up at the bottom.

    https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale

  22. Lydia wrote:

    Oh yes, the famous Brown Hotel hot brown.

    Oh my word, yes. Having a mouth memory now.

  23. I’m from California. I was raised in a ranching/farming community north of San Francisco.

    I currently live in Silicon Valley, not too far from Google and not too far from Stanford University. Google’s free bikes for their employees that they ride around on their huge campus also show up in my neighborhood.

    Food: As many of you know, including Roebuck, I was the subject of an elders’ meeting at my EX NeoCalvinist church for my food. I received an admonishment from the chairman of the elder board for — gasp — bringing 10 pounds of bbq beef brisket to the fellowship meal. While it was eaten in record time, I was chastised instead of thanked. Called at home. That was the slippery slope to my excommunication on some other trumped up charge. You know when these fools can’t appreciate a good brisket…they can’t do anything right!

  24. roebuck wrote:

    My license plate says:
    Live Free, or Die.

    I think we need to design something like that for the Pound Sand Ministries (TM) online retail store, for all those throwing off the authoritarianism that is NeoCalvinism.

    Regards,

    Velour, Vice President of
    Online Retail, Marketing
    and Consumer Surveys
    Pound Sand Ministries (TM), started on this very blog one week by a fellow poster.

  25. Former CLCer wrote:

    So this is totally off topic, but yesterday I talked to an old friend who still attends CLC. We’ve never discussed the tumult at Covenant Life, but we talked a bit about it in our conversation, and last night I had a dream that included (convicted child molester) Dave Adam’s wife. Creepy!

    I am sorry to hear that. No fun. I have been heavy hearted too about how unsafe my ex-church is for children and that the pastors/elders said there was “nothing wrong with child porn” and it “wasn’t a big deal” in their meeting with me. They admitted their friend a Megan’s List child pornographer to church and told no one.
    I found him on Megan’s List.

  26. That’s criminal. On the recent Mark Driscoll thread I posted some thoughts about training people in churches on how to identify abusers. But a church like the one you escaped would never teach that because 1) they don’t recognize the problem and 2) if they did teach it they would implicate themselves. They would end up having all the markers of abusers.

  27. Bookbolter wrote:

    We may not know what any individual’s motives are for going down the path of taking over and changing a church’s theology and practice from inside

    I simply could not understand the complete lack of compassion. So many torn relationships and the pastor was unfazed.

  28. So today on Mortification of Spin, Trueman recommended 9Marks. You guys were right! Y’all always are!

  29. @ Stan:
    Yep. I heard. It’s big tent unity now cos Ware, et.al affirm Nicene. It is all about the tyranny of the local church, being in covenant under the authority of a few men with lofty titles. Same stuff. I have never understood the fascination with Trueman. Maybe it’s his accent?

  30. Stan wrote:

    So today on Mortification of Spin, Trueman recommended 9Marks. You guys were right! Y’all always are!

    Just listened to the conversation over at MOS. Those three are either clueless about what is REALLY going on in Christendom or they are complicit.

    Maybe Todd Wilhelm will chime in and remind us just how ‘healthy’ his 9Marks church was.

  31. Deb wrote:

    Maybe Todd Wilhelm will chime in and remind us just how ‘healthy’ his 9Marks church was.

    The Party Can Do No Wrong, Comrades.

  32. Velour wrote:

    Apparently today’s authoritarian, abusive church leaders forget that Jesus reserved His HARSHEST criticisms for them. Brood of vipers. White-washed tombs

    Ah, but they’re God’s Speshul Pets.
    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!”

  33. roebuck wrote:

    I’m trying to imagine what trouble you could get into asking for fries at a fast food joint. There seems to be a general affinity towards Southern things here. Heck, we have the biggest NASCAR track in the north.

    I go brain dead sometimes ….. Gorham, NH – not Graham!
    We go off the beaten path. My accent really was an attention getter for 15 years. Things have relaxed a little. My husband is from WESTERN ME, so he knows the territory well. We always have to visit L. L. Cotes Toys for Big Boys in Errol, NH – just west of the Errol International Airport!

  34. GSD wrote:

    I’m from the Western end of the Bluegrass State, and the original home of Maranatha Campus Ministries. Not that we like to admit that… And that might narrow things down too much, for those who know the history of fringe shepherding groups of the 1970s.

    Did you know that the Red Lobster in Paducah has GIGANTIC picture hanging on a wall of the Portland Head Lighthouse, Cape Elizabeth, ME? I recognized it immediately, because I have taken photos from the same angle!

  35. Velour wrote:

    I’m from California. I was raised in a ranching/farming community north of San Francisco.

    Which ranching/farming community?
    Central Valley or one of the coastal valleys?

    “When you’re from Redding, San Francisco is in Southern California.”

  36. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    I’m from California. I was raised in a ranching/farming community north of San Francisco.
    Which ranching/farming community?
    Central Valley or one of the coastal valleys?
    “When you’re from Redding, San Francisco is in Southern California.”

    Coastal Northern California, not Central Valley.

  37. Hi TWW Friends,
    Just a short off-topic announcement that Billy (son) and Shauna (mom) in Texas need financial help. They are the ones that Dee here set up the GoFundMe account. This was a terrible child abuse case as many of you may remember in which a church failed to help this child and his mom. They also cost her house cleaning jobs.
    Billy starts school on Monday. They need clothes, school supplies, food, etc. Billy will also need to have Driver’s Education lessons every month, which Texas requires a payment for. I think it was a couple of hundred dollars a month.
    Shuana cleans houses and takes care of horses. This is a very tight situation and every little bit of help is needed. Thank you. (Over on the Open Discussion thread for more comments.)
    “I posted the other day the gofundme for Billy & Shauna it seems to get lost in the mix and I hate reposting because I am hoping that the needs will be met through my working. Billy begins school next Monday and we are in need of school supplies, clothes, and bills as my income doesn’t generate enough for everything. If you get a chance please feel free to visit the gofundme that Dee set up I am trusting God to do the rest. Pray for me as I am discouraged right now. http//www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  38. Deb wrote:

    If our readers don’t mind, could you please mention the state, region, or country in which you live when you comment next time?

    Orange County, California

  39. Here’s the correct link, folks, for Shuana and Billy in Texas and the GoFundMe
    account that Dee started for them.

    Billy starts school this next week. Shauna requests help from us to buy him school supplies and clothes. They also need food and other necessities.

    It’s been awhile since we have given any major contributions to them and they are still hurting.

    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

  40. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Oh yes, the famous Brown Hotel hot brown. My mom allowed herself one per year. That is how sinful they are. And don’t try one at home! There are no shortcuts.

    I have always wanted to go there and have one.

  41. Hi Wartburg Watchers,
    I just wanted to bring to your attention that Shauna and her son Billy in Texas have pressing financial needs. Dee previously opened the GoFundMe account for them.
    Billy starts school this next week. He needs school supplies and clothes. He and his mom also need food and other necessities. And help paying bills.
    https://www.gofundme.com/pxs5dk

    Thank you!

  42. I live in northern Virginia. I currently attend Sunday services intermittently (between two Baptist Churches) in this region, after having been excommunicated from a Baptist/9Marks Church in this same region. My former Church apparently couldn’t tolerate the difficulties in my recovery process with medical complications, derived from my five week dependency on a wheelchair due to two fractured feet.

    Now I can walk, sometimes even run again (for short distances), and assist in warning people about the abuses of 9Marks, the New Calvinist/Neo Calvinist movement, and like phenomenon.

    May God be praised.

  43. @ Glenn:

    Glad you’re on the mend!

    I am sorry you were excommunicated/shunned from a 9Marks church. Me too out in Silicon Valley (California) on some trumped up charge. And a godly doctor before me in his 70’s, married for 50 years, faithful and loving husband, loving father to grown children. And before him,a godly, middle-aged professional woman who is a finance executive on a trumped up charge.

    Salem Witch Trials II at these churches.

  44. If the church in question didn’t know enough or care enough about soteriology to ask which of the two major protestant idealogies their new pastor subscribed to then I’d say they deserved what they got.

    In my experience however it is generally Arminians who are less than forthcoming when labelling their theological views. Why else do we have to put up with such slippery terms like “Traditionalist” & “biblicist” to describe men who in reality are out-and-out Arminians?

  45. @ Velour:

    Thank you for the note, Velour. I believe I’ve read at least a bit about your circumstance and the one about the doctor. I’m sorry to hear about the finance executive.

    Salem Witch Trials in some sense are what these churches are about.

  46. Glenn wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thank you for the note, Velour. I believe I’ve read at least a bit about your circumstance and the one about the doctor. I’m sorry to hear about the finance executive.
    Salem Witch Trials in some sense are what these churches are about.

    You are welcome, Glenn.

    Thanks for your empathy about what we’ve been through. These NeoCalvinist churches are a hot mess. Destructive.

    The NeoCals are using Thought Reform techniques (i.e. brain washing) like the Chinese
    Communinsts and other authoritarian groups used. Yale pyschiatrist Dr. Robert Jay Lifton researched what the Chinese were doing when he worked for the Air Force. Hassan used
    Lifton’s work to get out of the Moonies, who had recruited him from his college cafeteria.

    https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php

    I have found Steve Hassan’s videos helpful in understanding mind control techniques.

    Brad/FuturistGuy who posts here and has a blog (he’s a great researcher) has written
    about Dr. Lifton’s work as well: https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/

  47. Charles Spurgeon wrote:

    "This post is just silly. You know not of which you speak, as the historic SBC was overwhelmingly Calvinistic in belief."

    Max responded to Charles Spurgeon as follows:

    The spirit of Spurgeon lives! It is sadly true that SBC founders were Calvinists. They used their theology to defend their slave-holding rights, feeling that sovereign God was surely on their side in the Civil War. When early Confederate victories turned to defeat, these racist Baptists changed their tune! Soon after the Civil War, Southern Baptists began to distance themselves from reformed theology and for the last 150 years have been non-Calvinist in belief and practice … until the New Calvinist rebellion came in by stealth and deception to take Generation Xer’s and Millennials back to SBC roots they know nothing about. “Silly” is not a word I would use to describe the mess this post reports on.

    Max's remarks to 'Charles Spurgeon' are so enlightening that I wanted to repeat them for those who may not have read his comment.

    Thanks Max!

  48. @ Deb:

    Hello, and thank you, Deb. I very briefly mentioned what happened to me here in northern Virginia under another posting back on Saturday, August 6th. I become a bit nauseated when I spend more than ten seconds or so remembering basically what happened. So, in attempts to make a longer story shorter: I was basically bullied into making a decision to simply quit returning to Arlington Baptist Church. Excommunication was subsequent.

    While still in substantial pain and walking at only a third of my normal speed in the early stages of my recovery (from a comminuted fracture to a bone in one foot and a stress fracture in the other), I received a cell phone call from the senior Pastor of ABC after having received an angry cell phone message from an ABC deacon. On Saturday, May 23, 2015. I was out on foot doing my Saturday shopping errands for myself while dependent on public transportation, as I have no car. (To their credit, ABC took good care of me while I was totally dependent on the wheelchair and until I no longer needed a crutch.)

    One might say that there is a lot of He Said-He Said detail in the conversation that I had with this pastor. This point in time, however, is when I became fearful for my physical safety with this pastor. Phone calls and e-mails were subsequently exchanged. There was still, however, malicious zeal on the part of the leadership there at ABC, as far as I could tell.

    The pastor didn’t seem to care that my recovery was being complicated with atrophy, back pain, and chest pain. Outrageous.

    I might add more at another time. I must go now.

    Have a blessed day.

  49. Glenn wrote:

    This point in time, however, is when I became fearful for my physical safety with this pastor. Phone calls and e-mails were subsequently exchanged. There was still, however, malicious zeal on the part of the leadership there at ABC, as far as I could tell.

    Glenn,
    I have a few thoughts for you. I hope they are helpful.

    Creeps like this are normally paper tigers who don’t know what to do when they are confronted with real authority. You have within you the real authority to resist them, but you might not yet know that experientially. In the mean time, you can borrow authority from others. One option is to call the police and ask about the possibility of obtaining a restraining order. If you feel physically threatened it is entirely appropriate to file an official police report. Not only could it save you, but it could be of future service to others.

    Some employers offer an “employee assistance program” (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_assistance_program). If your job does, you might be able to get just enough legal help to scare away the church. All it would take would be one well-written letter from a lawyer. Once a lawyer gets involved in a matter it is illegal for the other party to contact you directly. They must work things through your lawyer. If there is any hint of legal representation (even if you don’t officially retain the lawyer) the church will probably back off. But if they don’t, call the police every time they contact you.

    If you don’t have the option for a lawyer, do you have a friend or co-workers who can place a call to the church on your behalf? Making a police report would be better, but a friend could be enough to get them off your back. They don’t want their abusiveness to be exposed, so if you can find an assertive friend it could make a difference.

    You will probably have lots of doubts about doing the right thing to separate from this church. You’ll go back and forth between knowing you are doing the right thing and thinking that you are being too harsh on them. The doubts are because you were groomed by them. Learn to doubt those doubts. Find healthy people who can help you get out. In the long run, you will view this excommunication as a grace from God. You will one day be thankful that you were freed from the abuse.

    Physical pain makes everything harder. Don’t be harsh on yourself. You can do this.

  50. @ Glenn:

    Thank you for taking the time to share part of your story. How tragic! Just for clarification, was that Arlington Baptist Church in Arlington, Virginia? 

    I do hope you will be better soon. Take care of yourself.

  51. Ken F wrote:

    If your job does, you might be able to get just enough legal help to scare away the church. All it would take would be one well-written letter from a lawyer.

    *You can also ask free legal questions on Avvo.com and attorneys post answers from your geographic location and around the country.

    *There’s Legal Aid.

    *Catholic Charities.

    *Attorney bar associations have lawyer referral services in most areas and discounts
    for a 30-minute consultation at greatly reduced prices. (I’m in California so I’ll just
    speak for my part of the country. I don’t know if it’s true where you are.)

    *If you have a social worker helping you in any way post medical problem ask for that person’s help and advice.

    *Catholic Charities also has access to attorneys and social workers and other services.

  52. @ Ken F:
    Thank you, Ken F and Velour,

    Your advise is good and I will keep it in mind. That pastor I would more readily prepare to call the police on, more so than the rest of them, if any of them attempted to approach me in any offbeat manner or mind-set. I’m confident that some of them are not hostile toward me, but there likely is a group mentality there that I know I must be aware to protect myself from.

    An extremely interesting thing happened a couple of weeks ago. I posted two brief comments here at TWW for the first time ever, Saturday afternoon, Aug 06, and Sunday afternoon, Aug 07 (under Nine Marks of an Abusive Church). Nobody from that church I was excommunicated from (ABC)had contacted me since last December. But, lo and behold, I received an e-mail from a lady of that church inviting me to a picnic for labor day, time-stamped that Sunday evening, Aug 07. It appears that one or more people there with Arlington Baptist Church also take care in reading this website. I conveyed to a friend of mine, jokingly, that it’s nice to know that they’re still thinking of me at ABC.

    At any rate, I’ve been visiting a couple of Baptist churches here in northern Virginia which I still intend on revisiting.

    Thanks again!

  53. Glenn wrote:

    Arlington Baptist Church at 714 S. Monroe Street in Arlington, Virginia. The very same.

    I checked out their web page. The pastors are all Mark Dever disciples and the church is a CHBC clone!

  54. Glenn wrote:

    An extremely interesting thing happened a couple of weeks ago. I posted two brief comments here at TWW for the first time ever, Saturday afternoon, Aug 06, and Sunday afternoon, Aug 07 (under Nine Marks of an Abusive Church). Nobody from that church I was excommunicated from (ABC)had contacted me since last December. But, lo and behold, I received an e-mail from a lady of that church inviting me to a picnic for labor day, time-stamped that Sunday evening, Aug 07. It appears that one or more people there with Arlington Baptist Church also take care in reading this website. I conveyed to a friend of mine, jokingly, that it’s nice to know that they’re still thinking of me at ABC.

    Welcome for the info.

    By the way, I was just re-reading David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen’s The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse today. In the book, they mentioned this very thing that you wrote about. People who have been abused by churches are invited back.

    A form of “love bombing”.

  55. Velour wrote:

    Salem Witch Trials II at these churches.

    A Mass Movement doesn’t need a God, but has to have a Devil.
    And WITCHES hiding among the Faithful to be smelled out.
    The Masses need a Common Enemy.

  56. @ Deb
    I was on crutches for 30 days beginning back in December 2015 from the comminuted fracture in my right foot. Before that, I was on their “Care List” or something like that. I reluctantly let the pastor and an elder (I think I was older than the both of them) talk me into returning to Arlington Baptist Church. But then that accident happened (I tripped down a stairwell). I received a visit from a couple of the men from ABC during that 30 days, but I was in no shape to return to Church. Then my supporting foot lost all useful function with a painful stress fracture.

    To the credit of ABC, they then became much more helpful. I got rides to and from a doctors office, they provided a wheelchair, and they helped me with routine tasks every few days or so (I live alone). They greatly benefitted me then. I received a few helpful visits from the pastor (the wheelchair dependency put me on sick leave from work) along with a few other men, in rotation. I was very pleasantly surprised. At the end of the five weeks in the wheelchair (mid-February), they still gave me occasional rides to places from a few men for five weeks or so (including a few visits for Sunday service). And from that point on for rare occasion such as concluding doctors visits. But then came that Saturday, May 23, 2015 day. An insulting cell phone call from a deacon and then another insulting call from the pastor. They couldn’t seem to get it in their heads that it was much, much more difficult for me to go to and from retail stores, restaurants, and grocery stores while walking much slower in atrophy, with pain in both feet, complicating the pain I already have from scoliosis and a couple of other preexisting things.

    The meeting I had with those two elders five days before the initial injury was a follow up meeting from months prior with the pastor alone. I basically conveyed to them in both of those meetings that I was somewhat to rather dismayed by what I had begun to believe was a swagger or arrogance that was from within the leadership at what was then Grace Baptist Church of Arlington (GBCA). In attempts to maintain peace and courtesy, I normally held back names of members I suspected were wolf-like. No major incidents, but quite a bit of what I thought was sophomoric, cavalier pride seemed to exist there, regardless of the theology. All Christians should be humble and brotherly, regardless of where we might be within the Arminian-Reformed paradigm.

    GBCA was a plant of Capitol Hill Baptist Church that I first attended back in September 2009. ABC accepted the GBCA membership with all of the pastors/elders in place for the transition in late 2014. As you can read, I had become dismayed with GBCA by the time of this transition phase to the point of just simply where I wanted to separate quietly and peacefully.

    Additionally, GBCA seemed to me to be teaching more often on obedience (almost blind?) to civil government leaders and to church leaders, than on any other individual topic. This I thought was no less than a little cultish, as I politely pointed out to some there, in and out of leadership, at GBCA. Especially in a time like now, where at a half a century old, I personally see the theology of the dignity and respect of the human person being violated in America by our “authority” figures often, in “1984”, warmongering, and Brave New World like fashion. The GBCA leadership didn’t seem concerned at all about these concerns of mine. This felt just a bit like complaining about grave evil to the Church of Satan. I’m not of the world, but I’m in it, and as an American and a U.S. Air Force veteran, I prefer to spend a little time and effort showing my fellow countrymen that I care about their health and dignity as I care about mine. And as Christians I think we all should. I think it’s part of sanctification for Christians, and common sense Natural Law for all, regardless of religion.

    Anyhow, I must go. Please forgive me for any long-windedness. Thank you, Deb, and have a blessed day.

  57. Glenn wrote:

    Before that, I was on their “Care List” or something like that.

    “Pushing people under care” and putting them on Care Lists is a big thing. I’m thankful for the people at the church who did actually care for you, and I hope you are doing better in all respects.

  58. Nancy2 wrote:

    I checked out their web page. The pastors are all Mark Dever disciples and the church is a CHBC clone!

    I checked their very extensive resource page, 142 publications. Sorting the list by the number of publications by an author or co-author, the top of the list consists of:
    Mark Dever 10
    John Piper 8
    D.A. Carson 6
    Wayne Grudem 5
    J.I. Packer 5
    C.J. Mahaney 4

  59. @ Velour:
    Thanks for your tip on The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I’ve read most of it. It’s a book I think everybody should read at least once and hold on to.

  60. @ Gram3:
    Over a half dozen people were a real blessing to me from that church. Three or four, more especially. But then came the invective star-chamber commentary in a bitter pitch from the pastor, like a school yard bully. I’m too short in physical stature and too old to be subjected to reckless and insulting horseplay by men who are substantially younger, larger, and healthier than I am. I view it as having been a conquer and divide contrivance by the “pastor”.

    I’m doing better in most respects. God has been good.

  61. Glenn wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Thanks for your tip on The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I’ve read most of it. It’s a book I think everybody should read at least once and hold on to.

    Welcome.

    You’re right. I haven’t parted with my copy. It’s invaluable.

  62. Glenn wrote:

    Thanks for your tip on The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I’ve read most of it. It’s a book I think everybody should read at least once and hold on to.

    It should be mandatory reading. “Tired of Trying to Measure Up” is also a must-read.

  63. @ Ken F:
    Tired of Trying to Measure Up looks like a good read. I like Mere Churchianity by Michael Spencer, but it might be currently out of print. I’m glad I’ve got a copy of that as well.

  64. Ken F wrote:

    It should be mandatory reading. “Tired of Trying to Measure Up” is also a must-read.

    Had it….gave it to someone who would benefit from it…and bought me another one! Great read!

  65. Victorious wrote:

    Had it….gave it to someone who would benefit from it…and bought me another one! Great read!

    I think I’ve bought it more than a dozen times by now for this very reason.