“I guess the worst day I have had was when I had to stand up in rehab in front of my wife and daughter and say ‘Hi, my name is Sam and I am an addict.'” ― Samuel L. Jackson link
This post will feature a number of comments from TWW readers.
The ill advised, naive petition to reinstate Perry Noble
Charisma News published Despite Addiction Confessions, Church Members Petition to Get Perry Noble Back.
The petition had gathered nearly 600 signatures and attracted more than 250 comments before it was abruptly shut down perhaps due to an appeal on Facebook from Noble himself on Wednesday that if his supporters love him, they will continue supporting NewSpring.
You can see the petition at this site.
For those of you that know on July 10, 2016 it was announced that founder and senior pastor of Newspring Church in South Carolina, Perry Noble, was removed from his position of senior pastor due to claims of alcohol abuse and other issues.
This petition was started to show Pastor P that we, as church members, friends, family, and others are standing with and praying for him in this difficult time. We all love him and want him to get the help he needs.
Let it also be known that once Perry Noble has conquered this storm, with God's amazing grace, we want to see him reinstated as senior pastor. No one is perfect. We are all sinners in need of God's forgiveness. Perry needs our support and our prayers. All things are possible though Christ Jesus. If you have taken the time to sign this petition thank you and God bless.
Let's make Perry Noble great again!
Here are two comments from the petition before it was shut down.
What are the problems with this petition?
Let me tell you a true story of a gifted physician. He was a chief resident in a well known hospital and was considered one of the finest who ever filled the position. He was eventually caught stealing narcotics from the pharmacy and using them to self medicate.The medical licensure board stepped in and sent him to an inpatient rehabilitation center. If he completed the program and agreed to be tested for drugs for a number of years, his license would be reinstated. Note: he was given grace but he was also told he would be tested to verify his compliance.
He was hired by a well known group of doctors shortly after discharge from rehab. I remember thinking it was a bit too soon for that. Well, I was correct. Five months later, in an unannounced test (they never told him when they would do these tests), he was found to have drugs in his system. He lost his license and his family. Last we heard, he was working in a Home Depot.
Perry Noble was given warnings about his behavior and he did nothing until they finally fired him. The Baptist Message posted Perry Noble fired from NewSpring Church after refusing to take ‘corrective’ steps related to alcohol abuse.
“Over the course of several months our executive pastors met with and discussed at length with Perry these concerns regarding his personal behavior and his spiritual walk, Perry’s posture towards marriage, increased reliance on alcohol and other behaviors were of continual concern. Due to this the executive pastors confronted Perry and went through the steps of dealing with sin in the church as outlined in Matthew 18,” said Duffey.
“Because Perry chose not to address these ongoing issues and didn’t take the necessary steps toward correcting them, he is no longer qualified as outlined in I Timothy 3 and the church’s bylaws to continue as pastor of the NewSpring Church.
Perry Noble refused, over a prolonged period of time, to do the right thing. He knew he was in trouble and he chose to continue in his abuse of alcohol while creating problems in his marriage. This does not bode well for the future. Noble will need to be in rehab for al long period of time. Then he will need to be in a supportive, transparent group like Alcoholics Anonymous until his barriers are finally broken down.
A stay in rehab isn't a cure for alcoholism. It is the beginning of the road to recovery. Noble has no business being in the pulpit for the foreseeable future. If, and when, he does return to the pulpit, he should be tested (surprise visits without notification) for drug and alcohol usage for a prolonged period. I know these folks are upset that they lost their pastor. However, are thinking about themselves or are they thinking about what is best for Noble?
Quick aside: Noble built a church which had @30,000 members and lots of money. My guess is that the SBC leaders will find way to get him back in the pulpit.
Dan, a TWW reader, has this to say.
Grace for an addicted person can easily turn into enabling that person to continue in his or her destructive behaviors. Sometimes the most grace-filled response to an addicted person is to allow them to fall and sometimes that fall. This can be very hard and very painful for both the addicted person and the people who really care about the addicted person (and not their own or someone else’s reputation.)
TWW reader, "siteseer," wondered if these folks are fans more than disciples.
Yes, the followers do hold responsibility for their part in raising up human leaders above what God intends and for lack of discernment and wisdom. They are fans more than disciples.
Elizabeth Lee wondered at the "Make Perry Great again" statement. Is this the goal of our churches? To make our pastors *great?*
Wow. That petition is something else. It says, “Let’s make Perry Noble great again!”
For some reason it has been closed. I wonder if the person who started it was given more information about what happened behind the scenes.
That’s the problem with the lack of transparency. The average pew-sitter had no idea about the destruction going on. When PN’s firing was announced they didn’t go into enough detail. They were still covering up for him, and now many people are assuming it was unjust.
At SBC voices,the inevitable alcohol debate has ensued.
Full disclosure: I love to drink the occasional glass of wine but I am not an alcoholic. An alcoholic craves alcohol as much as we crave food when we haven't eaten all day. They cannot stop at one glass. An alcoholic must abstain from alcohol for the rest of their lives. Such a commitment is difficult. William Thornton wrote Alcohol is still a deal breaker in SBC life.
I get that and see it in folks around me who are my kid’s generation. A little beer or wine isn’t taboo to them as it has been to me, both pre- and post-entering the ministry.
Lest we err here, we should be clear to pastors, staff, seminarians, potential seminarians and church staff, planters, missions personnel and the like that use of alcohol in SBC life might be cool, relaxing, and modern but it will not advance one’s ministry and may likely end it.
1. North American Mission Board church planter code of conduct:
I will abstain from consumption of any alcoholic beverage.
2. From the International Mission Board Field Personnel Manual, as paraphrased by David Platt:
…the Field Personnel Manual requires all missionaries to abstain from alcohol following their appointment.
3. From the Southeastern seminary covenant (and I assume the other five seminaries have identical or similar covenants):
Either on or off campus and while classes are both in and out of session, I will not possess or use alcoholic beverages.
I personally have no trouble with pastors having a glass of wine or beer. If one signs a pledge not to drink, one should stick to it or find a different group. I believe that some church planters for the NAMB imbibe in spite of the pledge. My guess is that so long as they are successful, it will be overlooked.
I do not believe the Bible prevents drinking in moderation so I find this argument rather dull. However, as readers know, I love to discuss creationism. I lean towards theistic evolution and often find some of the Young Earth arguments amusing. Here are two comments at SBC Voices that made me chuckle.
No fermentation before the Fall
Steven Furtick praises Perry Noble after his firing.
As some of you may be aware, Perry Noble sits on Steven Furtick's compensation committee which secretly decides what sort of salary that Furtick receives. Since Furtick lives in one of the largest homes in North Carolina (16,000 sq ft.) I would venture to guess that Steven is quite pleased with Perry's efforts on his behalf.
The Christian Post published Steven Furtick Praises Perry Noble After NewSpring Firing.
Furtick does exactly what a number of these celebrity pastors do, he ignores those abused by Perry Noble's alcohol addiction-his wife and daughter. He also doesn't mention the pain this caused a number of the NewSpring members.
My guess is that Furtick keeps Noble on his committee. Furtick is living quite well with the input of Noble. Why give that up for a little substance abuse problem? Besides, Furtick doesn't have to live with him.
Ed Stetzer: Keep quiet and pray.
Stetzer, in in his blog at Christianity Today, wrote Alcohol Abuse, Perry Noble, and the Church's Response—What Now?.
At least Stetzer asked that folks pray for Noble's family as well as for the church. Good for him. But I absolutely disagree with him on overlooking the number of times that Perry Noble was involved in some awful incidents like the American Airlines Twitter mess and the treatment of Dr James Duncan. These actions could have pointed to his current situation. We should be paying attention.
Stetzer is naive. He trusts what Noble said to him. If Noble had not entered rehab by the time they talked, nothing Noble says can be trusted. Noble has lived a life of deception and it will be a long time before anyone should accept one word that he says. Then again, Noble built a big church with lots of money and that is something that impresses men like Stetzer.
I believe it is time to speculate and to figure out how this mess happened. Perry Noble marketed himself to people like me. He was not some quiet, humble country pastor who deserves his privacy. You play in public, you pay in public. And I am the public.
I get that Perry’s approach to ministry has—at times—been a lightning rod, and I’ve discussed that with him, but this is not the time for such comments or speculation.
His church and his pastors will sort out the details, and we should trust the Lord in His guidance of that process. They don’t need any of us being armchair pastors, speculating on how we think this happened or what we think they should do.
We have one role right now as fellow Christians, and for many of us, as fellow pastors. That role is to pray.
Please join me in praying for Perry, Lucretia, their children, and NewSpring—let that be your focus.
(Quick update: since posting this article, Perry and I have talked and he is getting help from a psychiatrist and is taking steps to address his alcohol dependence.)
Humility and accountability are just as important as prayers
TWW reader, Dragon Lady, a self professed alcoholic, had this to say.
As an alcoholic who married another alcoholic, I can say that the last thing Perry Noble needs is to be kept from the consequences of his actions. Alcoholism is a disease, yes, but while our alcoholism explains our insane (and abusive) behavior, it does not excuse it.
I was a high-functioning alcoholic, and I kept my drinking well hidden for many years. I did my active damage to others when I wasn’t drinking – what we call a “dry drunk” – but did a lot of passive damage while drunk through neglect and indifference. Either way I was doing damage to everyone around me until I got into the right 12 step program. (I half-assed Al-Anon for about 6 months before a close friend told me I needed to stop drinking for a while, and I realized I couldn’t, and started going to AA.)
I would suggest that people who have been harmed by Perry Noble who can’t afford counseling, to seek out an Al-Anon group. Al-Anon is for family and friends of alcoholics. It makes a huge difference to talk to and listen to people who understand what it’s like to live/work with an alcoholic and all the insanity that goes with it.
Yes, Perry Noble needs our prayers, but he needs humility and accountability every bit as much. Otherwise, the cycle of addiction will just keep repeating itself, and he will continue to wreak havoc on everyone around him – family, friends, staff, and congregants.
Perry Noble takes to video
WYFF reported Former NewSpring pastor posts video message on Facebook. You can watch this ill advised video at this link. At this point, Noble should have been silent but it appears he cannot be away from the limelight.
TWW reader, "Friend," had this to say
He said something like, If you love me, keep going to NewSpring.
I would have been more impressed to hear him say, “If you love God, and if you find that God feeds you at NewSpring, please keep going to NewSpring. I don’t want to cause further turmoil and new divisions; please don’t leave NewSpring on my account. And please don’t worry about me. I have ample help from God and the people around me.”
There are gifted people in the pulpit who should not be there.
Just because someone has charisma and can bring in the people does not mean they should be pastors. Here is a great comment by TWW reader, Max.
The church really needs to wake up to the fact that we have some preachers in the pulpit that don’t need to be there! We have mistaken the gift of gab and charismatic persona for a calling from God in far too many places. We have brought the gimmicks of the world into the church to draw a crowd, and the church is falling for it due to a lack of spiritual discernment.
When you can get thousands to follow potty-mouth preachers, the church is in desperate need for a new measure of discernment in the ranks. Deception was already at work in first century church, causing John to warn “do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, to see whether they are from God.” We need to be just as diligent – if not more so – in 21st century church.
"Nancy 2" chimed in on this comment
Hmmmmm …… If you can’t be a rock star, be a preacher.
Alcoholics leave destruction in their wake and so many leaders seem to be avoiding this.
"Muff Potter," a long time dear reader of TWW, knows of what he speaks. He is one of the most humble men that I know.
Hi DragonLady,
I know exactly where you’re coming from and of what you speak. I can say that cuz’ I’m an old drunk who with the help of his higher power, has not had a drink for 20 years.
I’m intimately acquainted with the human wreckage even a functioning alcoholic leaves in his or her wake. It’s as toxic as the dead-lands of Chernobyl and I’ve left plenty. It’s half-life never really goes away.
"Niteowl" left a heartbreaking comment on emotional abuse by an alcoholic father.
I grew up with an alcoholic father and it is hell on a family even without physical abuse. We were continually. Verbally and emotionally abused. He was able to keep up appearances outside the home and at work and was a respected member of the community. My mother was advised by other Christians to submit and he’d change. Total BS and she finally left him a few years after we kids were out of the house. After she left he went through rehab a few times in an effort to get her back.and died a few years later. Neither I nor my siblings miss him. Mr Perry needs to stay out of the pulpit and receive proper medical treatment. The absence of alcohol will not solve the problem. Many alcoholics turn into dry drunks with the drunken behavior exhibited while stone cold sober.
"Mirele" recounts having never met her alcoholic grandfather.
I’m just going to say that I lived for nearly 13 years of my life within 25 miles of my maternal grandfather and I never met the man. My mother moved out of his house the day she turned 18 (and she had six months of school left). He was a mean alcoholic. Ironically, after he died (when I was 22), my mother resumed her relationship with her stepmother. So yes, alcoholism can be very destructive to a family relationship.
"Waking up" addressed god-like adoration in spite of the abuse.
Reading about the outcome of Noble’s alcoholism within his ministry, I’m sick. I’m sick because my dad is an alcoholic as well as one of my siblings. The support for these addicts with ignorance of those who hold them in such mini-god like adoration is deep and unending. They live their lives as if they are in an unending movie and are the star. Noble seems to want to be adored as a star and even the drama of the unveiling of his addiction, has his responses scripted and rehearsed to shine the light on his abilities to “deal with it.” I don’t see any claims of how broken and weak he is nor of the damage he has caused. What I see by his statements are the classic deflections…”I got this…I’ve already taken steps to correct my problem and I’m good. My wife has managed to keep herself sexually pure through all of this, so I’m really proud of her. Again, I got this.”
"Nancy 2" recounted two different types of alcoholics in her family.
My FIL was an alcoholic. But, he was a “happy drunk”. He wouldn’t drive when he was drinking, and he was able to work. He was a great Uto mechanic, and ran his own small garage business next door to their home. The only damage his drinking did was financial.
One of his sons, my BIL, is a completely different story. He will clean himself up, begin to gain ground with his finances, his reputation, and his personal relationships — he’ll think, “I’ve got this!”, and then he will go back to drinking. He’ll cover it up for a while and talk about how great everything is. But, it always comes out.
His drinking has destroyed 3 marriages (no adultery or domestic abuse involved in any of them), and he has lost 2 homes because of it. He’s lost multiple jobs. He’s had his driver’s license revoked a couple of times, done a few stints in jail, and his only child will have nothing to do with him. He has alienated his 2 sisters and 3 brothers. His family – my husband included – will have nothing to do with him. His entire life has been a cycle of shampoo, rinse, repeat.
Jeff T discussed the problems with excuses.
Having two immediate family members and several extended family members who are alcoholics, I have learned one thing: the second they bring up anything as excuses or factors that led to their alcoholism you know right away they are doomed to recovery failure. Until they admit to themselves and others that they are simply powerless over alcohol without qualification, they will not succeed. It seems clear that Perry Noble is not there yet.
"Persephone" discussed the types of abuse.
Dee, thank you for pointing out that there absolutely was domestic abuse, just because of PN’s alcohol abuse. I wish more people understood this.
Addicts are fabulous at gaslighting, misdirection, and blame shifting. Every abused woman* everywhere knows what it’s like to feel crazy half the time; what many don’t know is that’s his intention – if you’re continually off-balance, it’s much easier for him to hide and indulge his addiction.
I wish more people understood that there doesn’t have to be physical violence, or even screaming fits, name-calling, or rage attacks for there to be real, spirit-crushing domestic abuse. Anything he does in an attempt to control her on an ongoing basis is abuse. That can be financial, emotional, spiritual, etc.
Where there’s addiction there will always be abuse. The reverse isn’t the case. Whenever there is abuse, the victim needs her own support system, trained in working with domestic abuse. She needs time and space apart form him while he decides whether he’s willing to quit making excuses, blaming others, minimizing, and flat-out lying about himself and his problem(s), and actively works on it for long enough to show true repentance. At least a year, IMO.
*this is the disclaimer that yes, gender can be the other way around, but usually isn’t
"Persephone" also added this about how an alcoholic makes up excuses to his family.
Oh my gosh, does this sound like my ex-husband! He rarely apologized sincerely for anything. But whenever something big came down, a quick “I’m sorry” and my kids and I were all supposed to forgive and forget, instantly. After all, he’d apologized, and Jesus instructs us to forgive.
It got so bad towards the end that at one point, after I’d figured out that he was driving drunk with the kids, he sat us all down for a very important family meeting, where he intended to come clean. He made lots of preemptive noises once we were all assembled, then came out with,
“I’ve been so stressed out and busy with work and all that I’ve become addicted…to nicotine gum!”
He then went on to explain that he’d gotten into the bad habit of drinking alcohol in order to be able to sleep, since the nicotine gum left him feeling wired.
It was all I could do not to let my jaw drop to the floor. When he shooed the kids out to the car for me to take them on an errand, he held me back and burst into ragey tears because I was so cold and hard-hearted. I guess he could tell I didn’t believe him.
Whenever someone insists on quick forgiveness, I go on red alert now.
"Kemi" shared that her mother was told by church folks not to leave her alcoholic father,
I’m so sorry. My mom refused to leave because of misguided advice from people at church too. She was a rule follower and a people pleaser which played perfectly to my father’s abuse. Finally, when I was in college my father got a great idea to punish my mom and change the locks on our house and left her clothes on the porch. I think he wanted to embarrass her and have the pleasure of watching her desperate to get back where in my younger sister was. Praise God a wise elderly couple from the church took her in, refused to let her go back, and helped her find a divorce lawyer.
The church has got to do better at helping families in abusive situations!! Women and children would get more attention on a sinking ship from many Christian men, than they would for life or death abuse in their own homes.
I hope these comments by readers of TWW will help Christian leaders who seem to overlook the many people who are harmed by alcohol abusers in the pulpit.
Special thanks to all of our dear readers who share with us day in and out. The following video is for those who were hurt by alcoholism in their families.
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First?
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Elizabeth Lee wrote:
And I was even quoted. I feel all special.
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Silver! Well, silver-ish.
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“Perry Noble refused, over a prolonged period of time, to do the right thing. He knew he was in trouble and he chose to continue in his abuse of alcohol while creating problems in his marriage. This does not bode well for the future..”
This part really bothers me.
Will PN take rehab seriously, or does he just consider it to be an uncomfortable necessity he has to deal with in order to regain his position?
Apparently, he didn’t seek help or put out any effort to change his ways until he was fired and his behavior, to some extent, was exposed. Never mind Newspring ……. for the sake of his family, I truly hope this is a serious, life-altering wake up call for Noble.
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Tree wrote:
Does that make me Bronze Age?
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@ Elizabeth Lee:
YAY!
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Another amazing article. Thank you.
At my ex-NeoCalvinist church the enabling of an alcoholic consisted of applying Nouthetic Counseling (“the Bible is sufficient counsel for everything). Incompetent, untrained pastors/elders spent months in meetings with members about this problem, out-of-control widow, drew pictures on the chalk board about “gossip”, made members (including staff) go apologize to the alcoholic widow for the problems she caused, and never dealt with the real issue: alcoholism. The pastors/elders engaged in the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine (a crime in my state) and did not get this widow to a physician to guide her treatment.
In the end, she was harmed, her adult children were harmed, and church members were harmed.
The church needs to get serious about handling all of the big issues of life, including those who work for the church and those who are members.
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Thank you of the video. I have not seen that before and it was very poignant.
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I have refrained from commenting on PN this week so as not to distract from the poignant stories of those who have been impacted by the challenges and heartaches of dealing with substance abuse. Thank you to all who have shared your story.
This post starts by looking at how some think NewSpring should move forward. This question and the thought of PN returning presents a broader issue that has been dogging me: At what point should someone be considered disqualified from leadership? We need discernment!
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Couple of posts for you….
SGM is imploding, documents have been dumped on the internet and people are learning about Mahaney’s criminal accusations. Against all this you have the Senior Pastor of Clovis Evangelical Free in Clovis, CA still proclaiming Mahnaey’s Humility and recommending him to his congregation. This post poses the question…does the Senior Pastor have the capability to practice discernment?
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/is-wil-owens-the-senior-pastor-of-clovis-evangelical-free-still-foaming-at-the-mouth-over-c-j-mahaney/
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This is an overview of the Acts 29 network and a call for stories to tackle and pushback. This was emailed to Acts 29 churches in the DC area as well as the staff of The Village Church.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/15/wanted-stories-about-acts-29-corruption-inappropriate-church-discipline-membership-covenant-issues-church-implosions-and-polity-problems-in-the-denomination/
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At what point should someone be qualified for leadership? A charismatic personality is certainly not one of the qualificTions.@ FW Rez:
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“Just because someone has charisma and can bring in the people does not mean they should be pastors.”
Why is it that so many automatically pick charismatic personalities as leaders? I would submit that charisma may be a contra indicator for a good pastor. If pastoring is about serving people, charisma seems more about inspiring people to follow the pastor. A problem of our times is that personality has superseded character in importance and if you are picking someone to serve you should be looking for the latter quality, someone of character.
On the other hand if you define pastor as a showman that will bring in the biggest crowd, then by all means go for the charismatic personality, but don’t be disappointed when it becomes all about him and Christ is left in the shadows.
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I want to reply to a few things in Stetzer’s post:
I feel that, on the contrary, this is the teachable moment to make the connection from cause to effect, so that lessons can be learned. This is one way that people mature, by seeing and learning, so that we don’t all have to make the same mistakes in order to learn from it.
I have not spoken about how alcoholism/addiction affected my family. It’s not something I think about much anymore yet these last few posts have made me realize that the ghosts will always be there.
One thing I want to say is that in our family, we didn’t talk about the elephant in the room. It was bad that the elephant was there but somehow it was considered much worse to acknowledge it openly and discuss it. Well, the elephant doesn’t go away when you stop talking. Silence only stops you from being able to process it and learn from the situation. I think that it’s okay to talk about it.
Discussing what has happened and learning from it does not have to be an “armchair” thing. Speculation will happen whether it’s out loud or not. We all want to know how and why one thing leads to another. One way to quiet speculations is to just tell the truth.
I agree that prayer is one important thing we should do. But it is not the only thing. We should also think about what has happened. We should think about the warning signs we may have missed and ask ourselves why we missed them. We should think about how we might see things differently in future. We should think about our roles in the situation, if we were involved. We should think about what sorts of systems might lead to or encourage this situation to happen and what sorts might tend to prevent it. We should take the opportunity to learn about the issue, how it affects people, what helps, what makes it worse, how best to care for those who become entrapped. It might be a time to do some soul searching of ones’ own. I guess what I’m saying is it should be a learning experience.
I can’t go back to those days of silently ignoring the obvious. I need to be able to talk and process.
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Regarding “Ed Stetzer: Keep quiet and pray.”
Is this the same Ed Stetzer that knew that the ‘Boy Who Came Back From Heaven’ book was false, and chose to keep selling it anyway?
http://discern.org/2015/01/emails-suggest-lifeways-thom-rainer-and-ed-stetzer-knew-boy-who-came-back-from-heaven-book-was-false-chose-to-keep-selling-it-anyway/
Yeah, I thought so.
Another pillar of virtue in the Neo-Cal crowd. It’s always all about the money with these guys. Their voices are irrelevant and I tire of his type telling me how to think.
They are one big, incestuous family devoid of any virtue. Modern day Tetzel’s preaching their version of “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.”
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Two thoughts; First people seem to think forgiveness means protecting the sinner from the consequences of their sin. That is a dangerously flawed understanding of forgiveness. David was forgiven of the Bathsheba affair; but the affair had far-reaching consequences for David, his family and the Kingdom. It is also interesting that while people want the sinner, in this case Perry Noble, to avoid consequences, they give no thought to the painful, long lasting consequences that his victims will have to suffer. That is indeed a simplistic understanding of sin and God’s vehement hatred of sin.
Secondly, as an armchair psychologist, all these rock star mega-church pastor’s seem to have one trait (personality disorder?) in common, Narcissism
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@ Dan:
Is that how a mega-church is built: narcissism? The draw of a narcissistic rock star “pastor”?
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@ Leslie:
What qualifies for leadership is how many will follow and how many even pay for such a leader.
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From the post, and quoting Mr Stetzer:
As you pointed out, Dee, Mr Noble’s approach to ministry has not in any sense been a lightning rod. A lightning rod attracts dangerous and naturally pre-existing concentrations of charge to itself, in order to protect the building or other structure to which it is attached. But Mr Noble has generated controversy of his own, and courted controversy, for a long while now. It has been a cornerstone of his brand.
“His church” has never had any authority to exist in a self-governing vacuum. Anything that calls itself “church” is claiming to be a part of The Church (of which there is, and has always been, only one) and is answerable within that Church. “His church” and “his pastors” haven’t sorted out the details of his inappropriate conduct and speech from within the pulpit. To my mind, this is the time to call that whole sub-culture to account.
The problem is bigger than Mr Noble and whatever alcohol addiction he has. Those things matter a great deal, especially to his family, but there are bigger questions of how the church not only allowed him to remain on a pedestal for so long but fed itself on such a culture of hero-worship. It grieves me more than many things that might seem worse to read that phrase Let’s make Perry Noble great again! on a petition from within their number. How would they have reacted to a petition saying Let’s worship Bahá’u’lláh as well as Jesus! ? How did such grotesque theology fester in their midst? What else do people believe in that congregation?
I gather that Mr Noble himself has asked for the petition to be removed; so, fair enough. But that it happened at all should be setting off urgent alarm bells within the church leadership. That leadership should, by example, lead the entire congregation in soul-searching and repentance, not to make excuses or cover up for Mr Noble, but to lay an axe to the root of the tree that brought them to this point. It’s not the case that we’re all sinners so let’s pretend sin doesn’t matter. Rather, it has to be we’re all responsible to do what it takes to address the sin in our midst.
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Bill M wrote:
Amen and amen.
When I was reading the snippets on the code of conduct in the SBC entities, I could not help but think about traits like character, transparency, honesty, etc. That are so very sorely lacking in too many SBC entity leaders and SBC pastors.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
That would be ideal and a watershed event.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Exactly. You have nailed it.
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@ Lydia:
Apparently the Perry Party is not over. It’s only just beginning.
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One thing that concerns me. After what the staffers at NS did to James Duncan, I would be watching my back if I were the Deebs. The elders may have fired Noble but how many of them were involved or knew about the James Duncan situation?
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Bill M wrote:
Agree with every word of your excellent observation.
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Dan wrote:
Or Borderline. Or both. With a splash of Histrionic “center of the universe.”
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well said.
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Gram3 wrote:
I wonder about those who want PN back ASAP. Do they attend just for the entertainment? Drunks usually make great entertainers, and if PN cleans up his act, he might lose some entertainment value.
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Bill M wrote:
It seems to me like a lot of these pastors were not chosen by their congregations, but founded their churches, and made sure that the pastor had ultimate oversight, instead of having congregational checks and balances. I’m still actually a bit surprised that Noble got fired, and could get fired. I bet a number of the largest megachurches couldn’t do the same.
Though we are now seeing with NAMB a distinct preference for church-planting pastors that toe the TCG line, regardless of their character.
This just leaves in constant prayer for Christians to be more watchful, and to be able to see more deception. And for myself, I started going to small mainline churches to get away from all of it.
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ishy wrote:
Sadly, I do not think the SBC seminaries are training their ministers to be servants.
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mot wrote:
I think this was true even before the TCG takeover. The extreme emphasis of Baptists on the sermon above other worship promotes pastors to a a certain level, but I also think it takes much away in terms of what a pastor could truly do as a servant in terms of making disciples. I think that’s one reason why TCG has had such an in-road in the SBC.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Years ago, I taught a course on the Reformation at Pete Briscoe’s church. I dressed up like Tetzel and proceeded to enact what his reaction might have been to Luther’s 95 Thesis. Needless to say, the class was astounded! Well, not really but they were amused. I had a bit of a reputation and people would come just to see what I was up to. 🙂
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ishy wrote:
This is a great insight.
ishy wrote:
A long time ago, we discovered that Noble had set up a system in which it was very difficult tot fire him. I really need to find that. My guess is that he screwed up so badly that he would be forced to leave if all of it got out.
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Nancy2 wrote:
This is a most insightful comment. I hadn’t thought of it.
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Gram3 wrote:
I, too.
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ishy wrote:
I was surprised, too, which tells me there is much more to the story. When your yes men turn on you and get rid of the big money draw, there are other factors in play. These are people of easy believism who would celebrate cheap grace with an ‘I am sorry and going right to rehab’. These types don’t care about other victims unless, of course, it was themselves.
It gives some insight into new spring to go back and read James Duncan story. start with what James Duncan wrote about new spring and then how they responded to it.
http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/
It really helps to know what sort of people and place we are talking about. It is not hard to see how it could have easily imploded at the top level when you take a good look at the violent personalities running it.
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dee wrote:
Many, if not most, mega-churches have multi-million dollar life insurance policies on their pastor-stars. That speaks volumes about who they trust and to whom they give credit for the “success” of the organization that they call church. If they have life insurance policies, it would not be surprise to find out that they also have insurance protection against professional misconduct on the part of the pastor. Could there possibly be a financial benefit in firing the pastor, even the “founding” star, if he is doing damage to the “brand”?
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@ Dan:Dan wrote:
Any lawyers out there to weigh in on this?
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Lydia wrote:
Great comment.
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@ Lydia:
After reading the link, the culture of hate promoted by the leadership in the church and the community are shocking.
This is the antithesis of the New Testament – where Christians are known by their love, particularly for one another.
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@ Dan:
They did the math, ousted the star, and cashed in?
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This link on the Gospel Coalition’s website from a couple of years ago has an interesting comment: https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/trevinwax/2014/05/09/know-your-southern-baptists-perry-noble/
This is the only comment posted: “I rarely write to criticize, but I think Noble is worth looking into a little more deeply. I am not an attack dog etc, but I have read quite a bit of negative stuff on Noble, as you will find in this link (although I have read much elsewhere. I don’t care if you even publish my comment, I just want to make you aware because I respect you and love your blog. Profiling him gives him credibility, which he greatly lacks. His growth is not through the Gospel, but through showmanship.”
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@ Ken F:
There it is, exactly what others have mentioned here, evident 2 years ago.
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Bill M wrote:
Or when the showman drops his stage persona, and you’re confronted with whatever’s behind that mask.
Caveat emptor.
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Nancy2 wrote:
That’s my question as well. If PN follows AA’s 12 step program, we’ll know if he’s serious about recovery if we actually see him at work in completing steps 8 and 9:
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Sadly my feeling is that PN’s ego and belief in his own superiority just won’t allow him to do either of these.
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Dan wrote:
I have women and men friends who are recovering alcoholics. I have attended open Alcoholics Anonymous meetings with them (open to non-alcoholics), women-only A.A. meetings, heard their stories, and read them. They are grateful for the people who help them “hit bottom”. It’s not uncommon for them to return to the thank the police officer who arrested them, or someone else that had them face the consequences of their drinking.
I’ve heard them describe the people who enabled them as people who were trying to kill them.
There’s a lot of be said for the “wounds of a friend”.
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siteseer wrote:
Oddly enough, this reminds me of something that I saw in a cartoon ages ago. It was a “Garfield” TV special (I actually linked to a short clip of it in the previous thread), in which he’s reunited with his long-lost mother, and all his relatives. There’s one who is strangely zoned out and groggy — looking back in retrospect, with non-kiddie eyes, he’s obviously stoned or wasted. But when Garfield asks what’s wrong with him, his mother basically says, “Oh, he’s just not feeling well right now.”
I’ve heard that similar scenes often play out in the families of addicts… scenes of denial and enablement. I don’t know if it was like that for you, Siteseer. It just seems so heartbreaking and hopeless. I wonder how long scenes like that went on in Noble’s household, or in church staff meetings.
It’s bittersweet, too, thinking about something like that in an otherwise fun, silly cartoon. Leaves me wondering: Why did they put that bit in there?
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Based on what I read about the James Duncan event, I feel nothing for Newspring or its ex pastor. These churches are nothing more tax break money machines. My recent interactions with religion have been lukewarm at best.
Had an experience at a friend’s funeral last that really was just the straw that broke the camel’s back. Nothing will get me into a church. And I will do my level best to protect my kids from church as well.
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Lydia wrote:
They are as loathe-worthy as the criminals who run and profit from clandestine dog fighting rings.
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dee wrote:
Intriguing. Are you saying that Noble possibly did (or was consistently doing) something so egregious that, if the congregation ever got wind of it, they’d all leave en masse? So that, even if his behaviour didn’t harm the elders/deacons directly, they were in desperate fear of losing their meal ticket, and had to “get in front of it”?
No idea what a foul-up of that magnitude might be… Wait, this whole comment of mine is speculation! Ed the Great and Powerful warned us we must avoid this at all costs! Dee, please remove this comment. Forget I ever, ever wrote it. It never existed. These aren’t the droids you’re looking for. Move along.
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@ ishy:
I was thinking about how this used to work in the SBC. Typically a new church would be started from an existing Church. Of course there was a time in this country where people did not want to see how big their Church could grow they would, instead, start another one usually as agreed by everyone involved.
I am not saying there were not splits because there were. But I see that as much more healthy than what I see going on today with the concept of founding a church on cult of personality or planting one NAMB style in the middle of a place with hundreds of similar churches.
Just look at the time frame from Nobles apt bible study to 30,000 in multi sites and millions flowing in. They remind me of dot.coms. Mars Hill had a similar story.
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@ dee:
I would have loved a class like that.
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Bill M wrote:
Same reason as the Gobbledy Gooker, the Necrophilia Angle, and all the other pro wrestling angles cataloged over at Wrestlecrap.com:
BUTTS IN SEATS.
BUTTS IN SEATS WITH $$$$$.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
This brings up a question for me, what was behind Noble’s mask. Similar to how some people confuse an actor with a role they portray, way too may confuse a pastor’s stage persona with the real person.
Perry’s operation was abusive, its treatment of James Duncan is definitive proof, but what of Noble himself. He appears to be a magnetic but very flawed individual, ill suited for all the attention he cultivated. Was he narcissistic and abusive to those around him like so many mega church CEOs are later found to be?
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
I didn’t know that about Ed. Snake oil salesmen and women, one and all.
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@ JYJames:
What is missing from that story are now dead links as to the sorts of things James Duncan was writing about NewSpring. They marketed themselves in a very provocative and perverted way. It goes to the old saying on megas, “what you win them with is what you win them to”.
I don’t remember the specific campaigns they were using but it was on billboards and such all around town. One of them had to do with “good sex”. James Duncan was targeted because he had the nerve to disagree publicly with their approach to church marketing.
Note a few things in the story. When James Duncan filed a complaint, the sheriff actually asked him if he was sure he wanted to go through with it because NS would retaliate. So it is not like their Antics were not unknown even to law enforcement.
The investigator assigned to the complaint went to New Spring. Welcome to the world of the mega. The tentacles are usually so long and deep it is not even worth going up against them. They have Protections in law enforcement, local television personalities, the well-heeled business communities and such.
Just a glimpse inside ONE situation we know about speaks volumes about whyi they really are and what is their normal.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There is more to it than that. I’ve witnessed numerous occasions where even a small group thinks the guy with charisma should be the one to lead them. It even occurs in job interviews, the interview committee hires the guy with charisma. Something in our culture right now seems to impart that charisma equals leadership.
In my lifetime observance, whether it be corporate CEO, non-profit director, church pastor, small group leader, the ones that did it best were not flashy personas but capable, humble, and inconspicuous.
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Muff Potter wrote:
My sentiments exactly. Except those criminals don’t slap a plastic fish on their activities.
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Bill M wrote:
I fear those days are just about gone. People seem to be smitten with what I call the totalitarian niceness. Heck, I would settle for consistent competence.
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Lydia wrote:
With a congregation that is 30,000 strong, I wonder how many law enforcement officers and attorneys are members at Newspring?
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JYJames wrote:
My money is on the euphemism “posture toward his marriage.” Although I can imagine the church liability carrier being concerned about his alcoholism, I don’t see the average giving unit at NS caring much about it. The insurance angle, whatever was insured, is interesting…
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Lydia wrote:
Sounds like Scientology.
Regarding the marketing approach, sounds like that guy Driscoll when in Seattle, and the other one D. Wilson with some of the comments he makes about the Christian husband and his wife and their interactions. Very strange marketing, indeed.
Why don’t other “leaders” call them out on this? Silence is complicity? Cowards?
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Lydia wrote:
I saw that happen a couple or three times when I was a teenager. When a church would outgrow it’s property and the ability for the pastor and deacons to personally minister, the church would vote to purchase property elsewhere. They would save money and purchase property 10 miles away, or farther. When everything was in place, they would find another pastor, or a member of the church would feel led to be certified. Several families would go to the new church with the new pastor. The new church was a completely seperate entity. The members of the new church would knock on doors in the new community. ……. not pushing, not preaching …… just visiting and inviting people, opening doors for new friendships and new fellowship.
That doesn’t happen anymore. We now have empires built by men for men, instead of houses of God.
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@ Bill M:
I have a theory about this even though I am not educated in such things but have been around it too long not to have noticed patterns. These guys start young. Driscoll did, too. So have most of the YRR. Most of them start out thinking they have something people need from them.
( I think of Rick Warren when he started out he went door-to-door in certain yuppie neighborhoods asking people what they would like to experience at church. And he designed such a church with a lot of mentoring from Peter Drucker and Robert Schuller)
They have some sort of drawing shtick they use that is cool. They end up with no experience with the typical path to success full of hard knocks and such. Before their brains are fully developed, they have a large following. I liken it to giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. With these guys they stay Perpetual teenagers.
The really scary part about them is they are giving large groups of people what they want and are willing to pay for. It’s those masses of people who scare me the most.
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I did some rummaging around in the Maricopa County (AZ) recorder’s office and came across the “Deed of Trust and Fixture Filing” for “The Trinity Church.” It appears to me* that Driscoll has taken out two notes (one for $2,125,000.00 and a second for $300,000) on the property, which appears to have been partitioned. But I don’t read surveyor language, so will have to wait until the Maricopa County property tax website is updated. The “Glass & Garden Drive-in Church” also appears to be toting the note for the House of Driscoll.
I have sent the link to the deed of trust to our lovely blogmistresses for their review, but I did want to let everyone know what I discovered.
I do think a new sign is in order:
“The Trinity Church” Debt:
$2,125,000.00
WHO PAYS?
DespicableMarkDriscoll.com
*The last week has kicked my kiester with regards to vertigo. I’m feeling much better today and haven’t had a spell of vertigo for 36 hours, but your mileage may vary with regards to my analysis, so take that for what it’s worth.
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Watching PN face book video reminded me of Driscoll. These big famous guys ALWAYS bring up money and continue giving in their so called apologies. If you really hear them you see what they are really about. Numbers equals big bucks. No one mentions REPENT and go and sin no more. They are false teachers that as the Bible says masquerade as angles of light. Lets all read our Bibles daily and humble ourselves for service so we can stop being spectators and start being Christ followers.
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JYJames wrote:
From my experience pastors have an Unwritten code. They don’t call each other out, they circle the wagons unless they are from warring tribes and there is a war on.
Furtick and Noble, both ostensibly SBC in roots, have very little in common doctrinally with the current crop of neo-cals running the SBC except admiring their success with followers.
Yet, the word from the SBC leadership movers and shakers has been to be silent and pray. The one thing all of these guys fear is a Revolt from the pews. They do not want people thinking too deeply or independently. The Pew sitters are to stay ignorant and obedient. Any questioning or analyzing the situation is now to be a sin. This attitude protects the Setzers of the SBC who have made bank off Jesus. Setzer is a highly-paid LifeWay employee considered the church planting expert who has quite a few YRR Church plant fails under his belt as he was double-dipping.
They don’t want us thinking independently of them. That is the message I hear.
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@ Nancy2:
My experience, too. An exciting occassion full of support and love. Like family moving away but not too far.
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In reference to the guy that thinks fermentation was impossible before the Fall, is he really saying that even plants couldn’t die? I’d like to have a conversation about basic biology with that dude.
In any event, I have to shake my head at those in the SBC suggesting that the issue with Perry Noble was that he should have been a teetotaler. A spectacular exercise in missing the point.
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Edward wrote:
Apparently, living beings did not need food, and the first thing to die was the forbidden fruit that Adam allowed Eve to kill and eat?
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I have only commented here once before, though I read the blog regularly. I am commenting today because of one aspect of this story that I think needs more attention. After reading the post about PN’s resignation, I followed the link to the Pajama Pages blog and read James Duncan’s story. There is a lot of awful stuff there, but the part that made me feel physically ill was what happened with the Duncan’s adoption. It struck a chord because my husband and I are adoptive parents who used a Christian adoption agency like the Duncans did.
For those who don’t know, here is how modern, domestic infant adoptions work:
On one side are the prospective adoptive parents. They are often dealing with the grief and loss associated with infertility or other medical problems, possibly including miscarriages. They fill out tons of paperwork, get background checks and physicals, go through hours of interviews and training, and pay large sums of money. They create a profile book with pictures and information about themselves, their family, their home, etc. They fill out forms outlining their openness to various things (contact with birth parents? Child with Down Syndrome? Prenatal drug use?). After all of this is complete, they wait to be chosen by a birth mom/birth parents. This could take two months, or more than two years. Adoptive parents will tell you that this is the most difficult part of the process–waiting and praying every day that someone will choose you to be their child’s parents, and having no idea when, or if, it will happen. It is agonizing.
On the other side you have the birth mom (and sometimes birth dad, but not as often). She comes to the agency, often fearful and unsure about what to do. It is a frightening time, but she is connected with a counselor who helps her work through her options. If she chooses to make an adoption plan, she is presented with several profiles of prospective adoptive parents whose openness match her situation. This is huge decision for her, and many birth moms spend a great deal of time reading and rereading profiles to find the people best suited to parent the child. Once they choose, the agency contacts the prospective adoptive parents. They may or may not meet before the birth.
When the baby is born, the adoptive parents may be invited to be at the hospital during or after the birth. It is a highly charged, emotionally fraught time for everyone. The adoptive parents are excited, but nervous that the birth mom will change her mind. The birth mom is dealing with overwhelming feelings of love, sadness, and fear. The agency counselors are generally present to guide everyone through this difficult territory.
So, when I read about how the Duncans’ adoption was sabotaged by the people at New Spring, I was livid. This wasn’t just about jerking around a guy they were mad at, this was a cruel, heartless manipulation of people’s lives! Not just the Duncan’s, but the birth mom’s as well! It appears that she was lied to and manipulated into changing her mind at the last minute, during a time of great emotional upheaval for her. It’s sickening! I understand the Duncans were able to adopt a baby four years later–that’s an eternity for a waiting couple. And since they probably used a different agency, they would have had to start almost from scratch.
Supposedly PN knew nothing about what his underlings did *snort*, but regardless, anyone whose influence fosters this kind of disregard for basic human decency has no business wearing the label “Christian” much less “pastor”!
I apologize for the length of this post.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Editorial change:
BUTT$ IN $EAT$.
BUTT$ IN $EAT$ WITH $$$$$.
.
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@ mirele:
Good research, Mirele, about Hou$e of Dri$coll and the property.
Thank you for your weekly vigil, you rock.
Take care with your health. Praying for you.
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Jack wrote:
I hear you. Many churches are very dangerous places for adults and children.
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Nancy2 wrote:
For one thing Megas hire a lot of off duty law enforcement for traffic and basic security during worship times so they have a relationship. As to attorneys, my guess is quite a few. Good for the attorneys business.
Some Megas have legal counsel on staff or at least on retainer. They have protected themselves. This is why I think firing their cult of personality draw had to be something that was going to hurt the existence of the place. Still might although I don’t think he is out of the picture at all. Like Driscoll, guys like Perry don’t go away.
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@ Velour:
The guy who cost Target $1 billion walked away with a $70 million dollar payout after the failed expansion into Canada. This corruption isn’t unique to religion but the cult of personality is exacerbated by the implied mandate from heaven. The charlatan who runs the mini mega in my city has a 9 bedroom mansion. Not bad for a guy who used to be a hospital orderly. The entitlement is appalling. At least Target had shareholders they had to answer to.
Noble and these other clowns supposedly answer to God. But God seems to be content to let folks like mirele do the hard work. I’m not overly impressed.
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@ mirele:
Great research. We all thank you.
Maybe Driscoll will take his good buddy Perry out of my home state to AZ. Then you can keep your eye on him too!
Sorry about your vertigo. I had a bout of it once (the doctor called it Vestibular Neuritis). I wasn’t fully recovered for a year. Take care of yourself, especially in the Phoenix heat.
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If I eat a grape, does it die?
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John MacArthur’s website identified a problem with Noble nearly five years ago: https://www.gty.org/blog/B111028/the-elephant-in-the-elephant-room?Term=perry%20noble
Here’s a quote:
“Will Noble repent? From what I saw on that video, he didn’t seem to be in a listening frame of mind; he was all about justifying himself, even bragging about his profane decision. And even if he were inclined toward repentance, I’d think it would be difficult to be confronted and find your way to a humble and contrite spirit while several video cameras are capturing your every expression for a live audience.”
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Lydia wrote:
Great line.
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Bill M wrote:
It’s probably not the only thing that did not fully develop.
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Edward wrote:
The sad part is that “dude” is a SBC pastor. His comment shows abject stupidity IMO.
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@Edward
The non-fermentation business is an outgrowth of the young earth stuff. I don’t buy it and don’t know a lot of sbcers who do, although the YE true believers imbibe this stuff quite heavily. The idea is to find a way to say wine in the Bible was non-alcoholic. Nah…I can’t swallow that.
Megachurches and megapastors aren’t like normal people. For anyone who wants a job or appointment in any SBC entity, non-drinking is, so far as I know, a universal requirement and has been for years. Churches may do what they want but almost all churches would expect the same.
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Jack wrote:
Spot on, Jack.
Interesting take on Target in Canada. I couldn’t figure out why they expanded so quickly in Canada, sunk in so much money, instead of starting just a few key stores and seeing how those did. I’m not a business person, but even I’m not that stupid and whomever was behind that, including the failure.
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Edward wrote:
Hmm, yes, there were several directions we could have taken that one. Yeast produces ethanol by digesting sugar. Does he think digestion was impossible, and if so, what does he think the animal kingdom did with the green stuff God had given them for food? Since ethanol comes from sugar through a process of oxidation (which is why it eventually turns to vinegar), does he also think that oxidation is a consequence of sin? What does he think Adam and Eve did with the oxygen they breathed in – if, indeed, they respired at all? Why did Jesus turn water into a direct consequence of sin?
A bigger problem is, of course, how on earth Adam and Eve could ever possibly know God’s will before he had revealed himself through the Scriptures. I suppose their original stock of Bibles must have been destroyed in the Flood – that would certainly make sense.
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Ken F wrote:
While John MacArthur & Company are good at identifying abusive pastors and calling them out on it – Mark Driscoll and Perry Noble – they fail to scrutinize their own abusive system. The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary is all about turning out Stepford-ish cult members, with no real bona fide education and critical thinking skills, who are abusive to others. Add in Nouthetic Counseling (also known as the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, a crime in my state CA that can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor) and the fact that JMac ratifies this dumb and dangerous practices that the Bible verses are sufficient for everything (it’s not). Then you add in the JMac & Co beliefs that women are to obey and submit in everything, including violating the Child Endangerment laws that can land her in jail or state prison and have Child Protective Services take away her kids.
John MacArthur teaches another Gospel, as do his adherents. He’s just very conservative and doesn’t like the crassness of some of his mega church pastors.
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Velour wrote:
I’m with you on your assessment of MacArthur. What surprises me is his alliance with the YRRs because his ministry opposes so much of what the YRRs promote, such as ESS, charismatic gifts, liberty with respect to alchohol. I’m thinking at one point John MacArthur will have to throw them under the bus in order to preserve his own ministry.
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Edward wrote:
Animal and plant nutrition, thus animal and plant life, depends upon the death and consumption of other biological matter. There is no life with out death – physical or spiritual.
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@ Dan:
Well put, Dan.
Furthermore, the generation of energy within the sun depends – among other things – on radioactive decay of intermediate fusion products. Though I suppose that the sun would have been releasing energy by contracting under gravity, and radioactivity – and nuclear fusion – were triggered as a consequence of sin. Either that or the transmutation of elements doesn’t count.
I mean, we could be here all night, couldn’t we!
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@ Velour:
Target’s Canadian misadventure is a little out of scope as a Christian trend but has Newspring also over expanded? A company I used to work for had a megalomaniac president. When the board removed him, his ‘chosen ones’ also got the heave ho. I wonder if there will be a purge at this corporation as well.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
WOW! Your statement far exceeds by knowledge of the matter. I will take your word for it. But, with my rudimentary knowledge I do know atrophy and death are part of the created order. That is about as far as I can go.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Ed Stetzer is very transparent. Most of the NeoCal crowd makes more sense if you think of them in context of an unhealthy business culture (think Mad Men), rather than as spiritual servants.
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Velour wrote:
Like I keep sayin’, sooner or later these guys are gonna’ eff-up big time and the courts will no longer act with their former timidity toward religious non-profits. And the gavel will come down hard and heavy.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Excellent analogy.
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@ ishy:
Excellent point that mirrors my own experience.
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Dan wrote:
I won’t lie – I had to check my facts on Wikipedia! I’d call my nuclear physics rudimentary at best…
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Ken F wrote:
John MacAurthur has his own arrogance and works of the flesh to repent of before throwing stones at Noble. MacAurthur and his henchmen have been every bit as wicked, cruel, and wildly unhinged as anything coming out of NewSpring.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
with alcohol to boot. Got it.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Standing ovation!
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All this with Mr. Noble and others has shown me is that the professional Christians will always get protected unless they start to accept people who are gay, in many cases accept women as leaders / pastors and the number one reason stop generating income. Other than that they will be allowed to come back, have their supporters defend them etc. If this was happening to a regular person in the congregation they would be trashed with maybe a phone call. When I got the boot after ten years of service I got a message left on my answering machine. I will agree my sin was far more vile than anything Mr. Noble did, I called corporate and expressed my concerns about safety issues. That got me booted. Eventually, I reconciled after apologizing for being alive and breathing. I admit this makes me a coward but it hurt too much being separate, another moral failing on my part.
Back when I was a nieve, no stupid young Christian, all I ever wanted was to serve Christ and others, after 36 years in the or around the industry I have repented of such emotionalism. Well, actually I haven’t I just sort of pretend. I don’t understand why religion needs to always hurt so much?
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@ brian:
Brian, my heart goes out to you and grieves for what you have experienced “in the name of God”.
Love never hurts. God is love.
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Muff Potter wrote:
For my part, I turned in my ex-pastors/elders to CA Medical Board for the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine, which can be prosecuted as a felony or a misdemeanor. CA takes this very seriously. You don’t diagnosis and practice without medical school, training, and licensing by CA. They will sail down peoples’ backs for it, including arrests and prosecution. Serious business.
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Bill M wrote:
‘Christ is left in the shadows’ …
one of the ‘reasons’ I was told that the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message left out ” The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.”;
was that having Christ as the ‘lens’ was too broad and permitted too many people too much ‘freedom’ to put their own spin on Scripture.
Quite honestly, I think it must now be apparent that removing those words from the 1963 BF&M was actually an invitation for some fairly extreme viewpoints that have turned out to be so destructive to the SBC. You can’t take the teaching of ‘submission’ to ‘authority’ even though it violates conscience and run it through the ‘lens’ of Christ, no. The ‘teaching’ will crash up against Our Lord Himself, and shatter.
The ‘leaders’ HAD to remove that phrase in order to institute the profoundly altered treatment of women established in the 2000BF&M, with all of its extreme consequences.
This is my opinion, and as such, lacks the wisdom of those who know better from experience within the system,
but the ‘drama’ of the removal of such profound words and the ‘fall out’ of impact with ‘new’ requirements for the ‘obligations’ of women, do seem now to have meaning.
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siteseer wrote:
The Body of Christ works through its members taking responsibility FOR one another when some fall into difficulty, not in a ‘controlling’ way so much as a way that provides the support necessary for returning to ‘the good Way’. God’s gift of ‘reason’ and His gifts of discernment in association with the function of conscience, does have a purpose in the Body of Christ. The ‘forces’ at work within the Body are not those of ‘control’ and ‘domination’, no. The ‘forces’ at work in the Body are far stronger and grow out of compassion, and patience, and long-suffering, and above all, loving-kindness, a kindness like that of Our God.
We in the Body of Christ are obligated to help one another using our gifts of reason and ‘processing’. And IF these gifts are used in accordance with Our Lord’s teaching and example, then we can’t go wrong.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I cannot stand MacArthur’s teachings for this very reason. But I am wondering when the new-Calvinists will start chewing each other up. Also, to add to the side conversation, he teaches young earth creationism. I could argue against YEC for days, but don’t want to detract too much from this thread.
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@ Christiane:
This comment and the one above, thanks, Christiane. Well said, well received. God bless you.
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MacArthur and his ilk are far more dangerous than Noble ever dreamed of being in my opinion.
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Christiane wrote:
The leaders introduced a semi-Arian heresy, the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son to make women second-class citizens.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick,
If you’d like a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics from a diploma mill in Missouri, you can just send $299 U.S. dollars to the one that my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor bought his *Ph.D.* (cough) from.
Your scholarship on Wikipedia for your short science presentation here today is no doubt more than my ex-pastor ever invested for his *Ph.D.* (cough).
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I do not want to divert thread as well; but the production of ethanol is not a product of the fall/flood/degradation.. It is a product of anaerobic metabolism… We humans do it too! Just that we make lactic acid!!!
The stupidity of that comment is very humerous, if it was not so serious and an embarassement to Christianity!!
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@ Christiane:
Very few people paid any attention to the BFM at all outside the seminaries until after the CR was well entrenched when Mohler saw it as an opportunity.
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Lydia wrote:
The CR destroyed the SBC IMO!
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brian wrote:
True, partly because he is much more disciplined. Because of his dsicipline he is much less likely to implode from a scandal. His bad theology and practices needs more critical exposure so that they can be stopped.
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@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
I am pretty ignorant of science so I reserve the right to sound like a rube on such issues. However, the idea that there were no such natural biological functions before the fall is the result of a literal interpretation of an ancient creation story featuring Yahweh. It is also the result of listening tocertain Scholars who insist there is no hyperbole or other literary devices used in interpreting scripture passed down by ancients in oral tradition.
There is more acceptance in certain circles with claiming Jesus is a Lesser God (ESS) than daring to suggest Genesis is not all literal.
Mohler blew off ESS as no big deal providing safe haven for guys like Ware, Grudem, Burk, etc. Just differences in interpretation. Not heresy. But if you are OEC, watch out. You don’t accept the plain reading of scripture and your salvation is questionable.
It is ridiculous.
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Jack wrote:
That’s a handsome payout ($70 mil) for sheer incompetence.
I think many of these *pastors* are in it for the money and are chalatans.
My ex-NeoCalvinist claimed the following:
1. LIE: That he had been a children’s pastor at John MacArthur’s church in Southern California.
TRUTH: John MacArthur said that was a lie and that he’d never been on staff and had only been a volunteer, like scores of other people there.
2. LIE: That he had “defended The Gospel” before hostile liberals at a Southern California public college while he was taking classes to become a teacher.
TRUTH: State of California Teacher Credentialing supervisors said that the state had NEVER credentialed anyone with my ex-pastor’s name to teach. State supervisors wasted hours of their time vetting his lies (after I could not find his name on the state’s website and called them).
3. LIE: He gave his friend who was on Megan’s List for child pornography and had severed prison time church membership, leadership, and access to all children and told no one because his friend “said he was coming off Megan’s List”.
TRUTH: The Santa Clara County Sheriff’s (CA) sex offenders’ task force, the sex offender’s supervising law enforcement agency, called my pastor’s story (and the elders) “all lies” and “total lies”. The Sheriff’s sex offenders’ task force was so alarmed by my senior pastor’s lies that they called the California Attorney General’s Office, which maintains my state’s Megan’s List of sex offenders, and the Attorney General confirmed that this sex offender was NOT coming off Megan’s List and that the pastors/elders stories was “all lies”.
QUESTION: Since when does a felon have a supervising law enforcement agency and a church doesn’t vet them with that agency and takes “his word” which was no good to begin with and landed him in prison.
4. LIE: Pastor claimed to hundreds of church members that he was excommunicating a godly doctor in his 70’s because the doctor had been doing false teaching and to pray for the doctor’s wife.
TRUTH: The doctor was invited to a meeting thinking he was being asked to be an elder or deacon. He was falsely accused. The doctor never taught at church or even held a Bible study. He was lied about. The doctor’s wife said she’d always hated the senior pastor, elders, and church, warned her husband there was something wrong with it, and that they shouldn’t go there.
5. LIE: The senior pastor lied about a godly, middle-aged, professional woman before hundreds of church members and accused her of “not obeying her husband” and said they’d “worked with her for a long time”. The senior pastor ordered that she be “pursued” by church members to “repent” of her “sin” [practicing her First Amendment right of where she wants to worship].”
TRUTH: The woman thought the church was nuts, went to another church that was saner and had accountability, and said the senior pastor had come to her home and screamed at her. The woman disconnected her cell phone, email, and moved out of the family home when the church’s pastor/elders ordered that she be harassed by church members.
6. LIE: Pastor/elders said that wives are to obey and submit to their husbands in all things, including let a sex offender touch their children.
TRUTH: Mothers are required under CA law to protect their children from danger, even if their husband and pastors don’t think that’s a good idea. A failure to do so can get a woman arrested, prosecuted, and jail/prison time and Child Protective Services can take away her kids. The pastors/elders also engage in Criminal Conspiracy when they tell other people to commit criminal acts, to obey/submit to husbands or pastors/elders, no right to call the police, must obey Membership Covenant [note: illegal in the U.S. to “contract” for criminal acts].
7. LIE: Pastor claimed to have a Ph.D.
TRUTH: It’s from an online diploma mill in Missouri. For $299 you can have a PH.D. too.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
That is so true.
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@ mot:
At least it was by voting which, Imo, is better than deception or using responsibility as power to push through agendas. I can live with being voted out. I can’t live with oligarchical edicts and deception.
The Neo Cal stealth takeover is a direct result of the CR. Dr. Dilday even predicted it when few were paying attention
http://www.christianethicstoday.com/cetart/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.main&ArtID=582
Written in 2002. Check out point 5 as you scroll down
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Lydia wrote:
Lydia: Thank you. Dr. Dilday in point number 5 sure got it right.
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Lydia wrote:
Scientific fact destroys YEC. But one does not have to understand science to destroy YEC. It can also be done from the “plain reading of scripture.” For example:
– The Bible does not say when animals and plants started dying.
– YECs don’t take into account the differences between what was inside Eden vs what was outside Eden. If the whole earth was as “perfect” as they state there would be nothing special about Eden. But the Bible does describe it as a special place.
– They state that animal death before the fall would invalidate the atonement. But this assumes random animal death, such as road kill, has redeeming value. But it doesn’t. Animal death only counted if it was done in a very specific way, with very specific animals, and performed by ritually set aside people. To suggest that any animal death before the fall nullifies the atonement reflects a horrifically shallow view of what Jesus did on the cross.
– Adam could not have possibly done everything attributed to him on the sixth day in the few afternoon hours he had available to him if it was only one 24-hour day. YECs have countered that Adam, in his pre-fall state, could have worked at superhuman speed and intelligence. But the Bible doesn’t say that he could (so much for sola scriptura and the “plain reading of scripture”). And more importantly, the New Adam showed no signs of working at superhuman speeds and abilities.
– The Hebrew word for day has multiple literal meanings. The YECs have countered that whenever the ordinals are used it always means a 24-hour day. But the Genesis 1 passage has no counterpart anywhere in the Bible, so there is nothing with which to compare it. It’s an empty argument.
The list of such theological difficulties goes on and on. And it gets worse for the YEC crowd when the non-Genesis creation passages are taken into account. So for those of you not up to speed on the science, you have plenty of non-scientific material to work with.
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Lydia:
Dilday said:’This revised statement of faith, called The Baptist Faith and Message 2000 (BFM2000), is being used as an official creed to enforce loyalty to the party in power. To refuse is to risk isolation or even expulsion from the denominational circle.”
The 2000 BF&M is definitely a creed and very few oppose it, only at the lose of their livelihoods.
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mot wrote:
Why is this not called a cult?
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@ Velour:
Oh my word. That clearly describes a sociopath. I’m so sorry you experienced that.
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Great perspective Lydia…. From my perspective, it also shows how ignore of science they are……
Lydia wrote:
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Lydia wrote:
“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
The unavoidable conclusion is that Mohler believes the essence of Jesus, the one through whom all things are created, is not essential doctrine.
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JYJames wrote:
Some have called the SBC a cult.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
What keeps a guy like Perry Noble in the pulpit is the people. And because the people outnumber the Pastor, the Pastor has to use tactics to keep the people under his lordship. As a king, the people are expected to slavishly serve the will of the Master, and routinely give a percentage of their income in homage. And they do this willingly, because they think they’re all good people in doing so.
No surprise then, when their anointed leader falls. Do they say, “Oh my, what a shock! We’re appalled!”? No. They rally around him, believing him to be a good guy because they’re all in it together. They’re all part of an operation they’ve come to depend on to make themselves feel good. After all, it was a “church” y’all, so it can’t be bad, right?
Well, what’s also in the Bible is a verse about leaven, and how it works it’s way through the whole lump. The longer you’re in it, the worse off you are, and it’s my guess the members are all basically enibriated like their Pastor. I mean, why else would people go back for that stuff week after week and pay for it? I’d say the church itself is a substance to them, and they’re all substance abusers. It’s what’s called Toxic Faith, and every single last one of them, from Pastor to pewishioner, needs to enter rehab. Time to drain the spring at Newspring!
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Thanks, it was quite a ride.
I think the ex-senior pastor hated my guts because I had smarts, a back-bone, and spine.
He – and his yes-men elders – had to take me out. Too big of a threat.
So I just started digging…and one lie upon another.
Outsiders have even said: Is your ex-senior pastor a child abuser?
They think the totality of his behavior (not caring about kids, the obey and submit stuff for women, no healthy boundaries)…spells a very dangerous person. They could be right. Time will tell.
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Paula Rice wrote:
I refer to it as Spiritual Carbon Monoxide Poisoning. Odorless, tasteless, and deadly. You’re knocked out before you know it.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Lol!
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@ mot:
The man saw it in 2002! Isn’t he the one that got locked out if his presidents office at SWBTS?
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mot wrote:
The presence of so many man-made laws used to govern its religious life certainly points in the direction of a cult, doesn’t it?
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JYJames wrote:
It has been a massive undertaking using Thought Reform. Get them young and indoctrinate guided as education and spirituality. The older guys get on the bus because of job security or a place at the table. Even Patterson was promoting Mohler because of inerrancy and comp. How can there be inerrancy with such wide soteriologucal doctrinal differences in interpretations?
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Lydia wrote:
Yes, he is the one. That is the “christian” manner he was treated by the ones who wanted him removed. Evil men IMO.
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Lydia wrote:
It is all about power and authority and money.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Co-dependency.
Time to get out Melody Beattie’s Co-dependent No More.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Oh, my goodness!
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Lydia wrote:
And what sort of members does NewSpring turn out? What will happen if Perry Noble’s biggest fans leave in a huff and expect the same kind of outlandish behavior at other churches?
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@ Friend:
There will always be plenty of Perry’s out there, sadly. Let’s hope the masses of followers eventually grow up and seek the real Jesus Christ and not more showman entertainers.
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It’s not just Mr. Noble. No one, under any circumstances, should be in the pulpit in the manner that Mr. Noble was in the pulpit. These people such as Mr. Noble are making themselves great and gathering the sort of foolish people to themselves who want to “make them great again”. He was never great and never will be. Jesus is the only one deserving of that label.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Even if true, Jesus presumably had no serious issues with this fermentation-related byproduct of the fall of humankind when He turned water to wine. He’d have been ousted from most of these pharisaical cults and missionary groups with His first miracle!
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Friend wrote:
That’s a fair point. Sometimes I’ve wondered why oh why the Lord allows these charlatans to rise up and draw people to themselves–rather than point them to Jesus–and take people’s money and waste their time. Then one day it occurred to me that it may very well be the Lord quarantining those who would do tremendous damage to the true Church if there weren’t bizarre cult leaders out there giving their itching ears what they want to hear.
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Why Noble can’t just stay low for awhile and then have a little wine with dinner…….
Dee, perhaps you might want to explain the progression of alcoholism to everyone. I see lots of wounded but also those that just don’t get it e.g. with alcoholism you can’t go back to the way you like to pretend it was because it is progressive and that means……..
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Paula Rice wrote:
There is such a thing as religious addiction… I wonder if addictive personalities (is that really a thing? I know I’ve heard it but I’m not sure) tend to fall into religious addiction when they become believers? Or is faith just another mind-altering substance to them?
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Velour wrote:
He sounds VERY dangerous.
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Paula Rice wrote:
so Perry’s ‘flock’ was addicted to Perry who was addicted to alcohol . . . . I suppose that is alcoholism by proxy, in that they were experiencing the result of his ‘high’ when he was on stage performing and they couldn’t get enough of it ?????
(please tell me I’m mistaken here)
Actually, I see Perry as a human tragedy played out in a large arena where everyone associated was harmed …. you would think that the people who cared about him would have tried to help him, to REALLY help him and not cover for him and now, work for his possible premature reinstatement
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Lydia wrote:
This is an excellent resource.
I suppose the good Dr. Dilday was also disposed of in the massacre that followed the CR. What became of him?
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Christiane wrote:
White Night-at-Perrytown dangerous?
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Christiane wrote:
He NEVER existed, Comrade.
doubleplusunperson.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Which will then be spun as END TIMES PERSECUTION!!!!!!!!! to further circle the wagons against the Heathen.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That’s it. The ‘un-personing’ of women, of moderates, of anyone who has an opinion of their own that is not in sync with Great Leader.
HEADLESS, you can call it with the smallest phrase. Genius. And at 2 in the morning. Impressive. 🙂
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Ken F wrote:
But they agree on a dogma much more important:
“The only goal of Power is POWER.”
And
“The rule of The Party is Forever.”
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Velour wrote:
“Blessed are ye who are PERSECUTED for Righteousness’ sake…”
(Especially when it’s only a woman being persecuted by the Antichrist State, not the male Doctor Pastors…)
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William wrote:
But it DOES fit right in with the “Christian = Dry” tradition in American history.
How else can God’s Speshul Pets show their Moral Superiority over the rest of us?
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Edward wrote:
But fitting right in with the “Christian = DRY” tradition.
The same Obedience to GAWD that gave us Prohibition.
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JYJames wrote:
“One hand washes the other…”
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Gram3 wrote:
As in Live Boy, Dead Woman, or “I did not Know her in the Biblical sense (just used another orifice)”?
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I couldn’t help but just shake my head when I read those comments. I’d love to ask the sages at SBC Voices if flatulence existed before the Fall.
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Gram3 wrote:
That is a very strange thing to say. It sort of screams affair or abuse. I can’t imagine what else it could be unless he’s decided polygamy is ok, like the Munster Germany anabaptists…
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Christiane wrote:
Actually, I see the whole thing as a dramatic HOAX.
Watch the message Brad Cooper gives posted at the NewSpring website, and then watch the video. Notice how the weave a certain message into the video:
1. The importance of family and keeping marriages together.
2. Addiction and substance abuse.
3. Forgiveness and new beginnings.
4. Doing “everything right” and “checking off the boxes” like tithing & serving the church, in order for God to answer prayers and “do big things”.
This whole situation with Perry Noble is staged. Of course it is! The driving force behind the church is the idea they produce (with the savvy use of media, technology, hipster staging and clothing) in people’s minds that “the gospel,” coupled with tithing and serving the church, will earn you freedom from addictions, forgiveness for your sins, healing and restoration – all within the context of being a member of NewSpring church!
It’s just a big money-making venture, built on false promises and an ineffectual gospel that they must MANUFACTURE. Everything you see going on there is intended to sell you a product, and their product is their fake, “wonder-working” Jesus!
Of course Perry Noble is going to come back! Of course the congregation is petitioning him to return! Of course Steven Furtick came out in support of his fellow charlatan in the phoney Christian-ministry they share. It’s all a hoax folks!
There’s magic at Newspring, don’t ya know? And if it can’t influence the life of the man who’s been preaching the magic all these years, then it must be all a lie, right?! WRONG!
Perry Noble will come back, and the church will all rally around his “amazing” come-back story, which will reassure the congregation that:
a. What they’ve been buying into and investing their lives in for all those years is just absolutely true, hallelujah!
b. Their faith in the spring of life at NewSpring should not be shaken, that miracles do happen!
c. Tithing works, folks. If you give and keep on giving, you, too, will experience God’s wonder working love – (but only when you pay for it)
d. Attend Newspring! Be among the special, the favored, the ones whom God is at work in and all your wishes will come true! So keep serving for free on the parking crew and in children’s ministry and as a greeter etc etc because God will reward you just like he is rewarding Perry Noble – (except he pulls in a huge paycheck for his “service” on Sundays and can literally purchase all his wishes and buy fancy things, but let’s not talk about that)
You watch. This is all smoke and mirrors. It has to be, because NewSpring and Perry Noble are in the business of creating illusions of Jesus. That’s what the people are inebriated on – a false prosperity gospel that’s modeled by their superstar who will soon be resurrected from the dead!
Hoax. Hoax. Hoax.
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Furthermore, this really has nothing to do with alcoholism. In fact, I’d say this is where the sins lies. I’d say what’s really happening is that they are exploiting the use of alcohol and alcoholism by getting you to think that’s the real issue here.
The fact is, many people do struggle with addiction and substance abuse.
The fact is, Jesus Christ frees people from their enslavement to sin.
The fact is, the church should be a place where people can experience healing and restoration.
But the ministry of Newspring Church is based on something other than Jesus and something other than the gospel.
NewSpring wants to advertise itself as the source of life to those struggling with sin, and rope in addicts based false promises that tithing and attending and serving are the keys to freedom from addiction!
Perry Noble was delivered from his dependency and substance abuse. If it can happen to him, it can happen to the best of us, so no shame! Let’s increase the membership at NewSpring because it’s a church for everyone, and we’re all sinners!
NewSpring is your salvation. Come, attend. Come back if you’ve stopped attending. Watch our newest video and see how returning to NewSpring and attending NewSpring is the answer to all your problems. Get saved, be baptized! And yes, as Southern Baptists, we believe alcohol is of the DEBBEL! Jesus set Pastor P free and everyone forgave him, and the same can be true for youuuuu!
False hopes. False promises. False Gospel. False teaching. False, false, false. It’s all a pile of cooked up, southern-fried falsehood designed to bring in more tithes and new members!
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Paula Rice wrote:
It’s a great theory, Paula Rice.
I have my own idea that the ‘alcoholism’ thing may be a cover for something else that’s much worse.
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mot wrote:
Best succinct description yet. Keep in mind that I have years of experience in SBC congregations and seminaries. SBTS was the last nail in the coffin of my religion. The “leaders” there openly and transparently valued money and power. They wrapped it up in religious language, but anyone with two brain cells to rub together for friction could see right through it.
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Christiane wrote:
You mean the FT?
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William wrote:
I’ve also heard that it wasn’t a high alcohol content, which I guess means you shouldn’t drink at all. Somehow.
The way I read Jesus turning water into wine is that people were saying usually later on when everybody is getting tipsy they put out the cheap wine. I don’t know how you can read that as non alcoholic.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
OK. Got it.
But where is Dietrich Bonhoeffer? or Ezekiel? or Jesus (throwing the money-changers out)?
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
ah, you mean the ‘fundamentalist take-over’ ?
even in the beginning, some good people were very poorly treated by the take-over group …. likely a sad fore-shadowing of the more serious neo-Cal abuses to come
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Christiane wrote:
It’s a diabolical plot. It’s sinful, but Perry will justify the chicanery in the same way Furtick justified planting shills in the audience who responded to the ‘spontaneous baptism’ he conducted.
It was a lie for the shills to act like they were sincerely responding to the call, just as it was a lie to have manipulated and stage the whole event.
But the end justifies the means, right? WRONG. It’s deceptive. Everything that comes out of these camps needs to be questioned rather than analyzed as if there’s something real here at work – something real other than UNREALITY, that is.
See, in reality, Jesus Christ is Lord. That is what defines reality. None of what goes on at either NewSpring or Elevation comes under the Lordship of Jesus. None of it should be received and regarded as authentic. All of it should be regarded as showmanship and snake oil sales. What you see is not the gospel, and not Jesus at work. They simply use the stories and instructions in Bible to create the illusion of genuine faith to rope gullible people in, and secure their membership with dramatic stagecrafting.
Perry Noble and Co. are all involved in staging this in the same way the recent coup was likely staged by the Erdoğan regime in Turkey. Smoke & mirrors. Smoke & mirrors.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Between this, yec, and ‘sanctified’ testosterone, I feel like they need to maybe teach some legit science in seminary. Just so their kids don’t come out sounding quite so dumb on basic things.
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Lea wrote:
Some legit theology would also be nice.
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Jack wrote:
Back in the day, when people started showing up outside Scientology shops (I can’t call them “churches” either), the picketers were mostly people who had minority religious opinions or were flat-out atheists, agnostics, secularists or “don’t cares”. But we all recognized that Scientology was a Bad Thing. It used to bother me that the churches couldn’t see this and join us. *shrug* I’ve gotten over that.
I mention this because a friend of mine, a motorcycle-riding stone atheist, might drive out from Southern California to picket with me on August 7. She’s got lots of experience picketing Scientology. She used to dress up as Xenu the Galactic Emperor at some pickets and drive Scientology nuts. I promised to put her up in a nice hotel (they’re so cheap this time of year).
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William wrote:
Over on Pravda (SBCVoices), Volfan007 claims that Jesus turned water into …. wait for it …… grape juice! they just called grape juice wine back then.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Those who teach that are wearing “kick me” signs on their backs. They make themselves look like fools. The vow of a Nazirite showed that they knew about a wide variety of grape products way back then:
Numbers 6:3 – he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.”
So either the inspired author of Numbers got it wrong, or else the teachers of such nonsense are either willfully or unknowingly teaching something contrary to the Bible. I don’t know which does more damage, deceit or incompetence.
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Nancy2 wrote:
That is why all the guests complimented the host, they were all connoisseurs of grape juice. Sarcasm aside also note the wedding was not during the grape harvest but a month or two later. Any body ever left grape juice out of the refrigerator for a few days?
Note how the legalists who supposedly take the Bible literally can’t take a passage literally.
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@ Bill M:
“On the other hand if you define pastor as a showman that will bring in the biggest crowd, then by all means go for the charismatic personality, but don’t be disappointed when it becomes all about him and Christ is left in the shadows.”
++++++++++++++++++++
church as a show…. there is so erroneous.
let’s toss the word “church” for the moment. the whole idea of people coming together around faith and for spiritual reasons, as described in the NT, is something like a band’s ‘jam session’.
let’s think of it as a group of jazz musicians. perhaps they start out together on something familiar, before long one instrumentalist gets an idea and launches out giving expression to it, and the others pull back. the others begin to respond to it. music is being created in the moment. then another gets an idea. then another. then they all come back together as a whole. then, another idea…
whatever ‘leader’ is there is minimally involved — maybe a word to facilitate one musician expanding on something, or another musician to hold back. then when they’re done, ‘leader’ might bring up discussion on how/when to go forward. finally, ‘leader’ makes sure lights are off, building locked.
they did it together. something is created every time.
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@ Ken F:
Excellent points! Why is OE such a threat to their faith? Or is it a threat to their interpretive filter which they view the same as faith?
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Bill M wrote:
Now there is a point I never even thought of!
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Lydia wrote:
Actually I should have said the wedding was at least a month or two later. Grape harvest is July/August, several of events proceeding the wedding have peen pinned down to September, then came Jesus’ 40 day fast. Just after turning water into wine at the wedding, the narrative jumps to the Passover in April. A very strong case can be made that the wedding was held long after the harvest of grapes and in a time of no preservation, refrigeration or canning. It is just silly to argue for grape juice.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Indeed, H.U.G.
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Lydia wrote:
I think it’s because they have been taught bundle of lies packaged in such a way as to make it sound like an essential element of faith. None of us wants to be called a heretic. None of us want to lose our standing before God. So these unscrupulous teachers capitalize on “loss aversion” to convince the uniformed that there is no other spiritually correct way to believe.
It’s hard to come up with a “doctrine” more loaded with inconsistencies and fraud than young earth creationism.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I am hoping and praying that this will be MacArthur’s undoing. The YRRs at one point will threaten his power. If they start to implode he will have to pile on so as not to go down with the ship.
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Ken F wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ZkdHImCuQ
Bill Engvall : “Here’s Your Sign”
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amen to these thoughts…. Do you how silly it is to say that T-Rex was chasing Noah around on the ark!
b>Ken F wrote:
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Bill M wrote:
The Apostle Paul – inerrant, as written; he says what he means and means what he says.
Jesus Christ – waahhhhhllllll now, this is what he said, but ……..
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
And then there was Job. Was that leviathan a hippo, an alligator, or a DINOSAUR?
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@ ishy:
“The extreme emphasis of Baptists on the sermon above other worship promotes pastors to a a certain level, but I also think it takes much away in terms of what a pastor could truly do as a servant in terms of making disciples.”
++++++++++++
anyone ever see the movie Wall-e?
humans on this spacestation type place no longer need to do much of anything, let alone walk. they recline at all times looking at screens, with all their tasks automated for them. they have no more muscle, as it is not needed anymore. muscle and most of their skills have atrophied, because they’re no longer relevant.
what’s relevant is reclining and listening to/watching program.
order out of chaos has been created through eliminating movement, skills, initiative, and thinking/reasoning so the plebians can receive the message of the ‘leaders’ at all times.
this is the sermon.
i somehow think creatio ex nihilo, and the ensuing order out of chaos incorporated ingenuity & industriousness on the part of all creation, humans with the greatest of these abilities, of course.
just don’t see the sense of the ingenuity/industrious/thought-stopping sermon focus, beyond how it benefits those in power.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or it could be because so many who drink make ***** of themselves and many non drinkers come from alcoholic families where they endured abuse.. at least that has been what I’ve observed. You’ll be surprised how many children of alcoholics come to the church seeking safety and peace. Government statistics say that 1 out of 10 Americans are alcoholics… ooofta!
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Nancy2 wrote:
Seriously! They do the same thing with the marriage in heaven bit.
Paul himself differentiated in scripture between things Paul thinks and things from God, funny enough.
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Nancy2 wrote:
FUNDAMENTALIST are frightening people. The FUNDAMENTALIST stole the SBC and look at the mess they have made of it.
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Christiane wrote:
Oh yes. Like the ouster of Dr. Sheri Klouda, one of the most despicable and probably illegal shannanigans in Baptist history:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/16828466/ns/us_news-education/t/professor-seminary-ousted-her-over-gender/#.V4vHG1eFzqo
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@ elastigirl:
the real point is what does it mean to create disciples?
i hate that catch phrase. because, like all overused phrases, it becomes divorced from its original meaning. and i can’t say i really like the new meanings that develop through the overuse of the word(s).
seems to me the real point of it all is to facilitate opportunity for initiative and the industrious use of one’s skills (a mingling of spiritual and practical). it certainly is’t to sit still, receive and leave.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Especially when T-Rexes were REALLY Vegetarians all along…
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Ken F wrote:
Threat of Eternal Hell is quite a thoughtstopper motivator…
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Ken F wrote:
Let the Game of Thrones begin.
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Bill M wrote:
Before or after REVEREND Welch?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have a Southern Baptist uncle who is anti-alcohol and looks down his nose at drinkers.
I wanted to reiterate, as a teetotaler myself – and I am teetotaler not due to religious reasons, but because I think alcohol tastes lousy and alcoholism runs on one side of my family, so I want to stay away from it –
My experience as a teetotaler has been that drinkers feel uncomfortable around me and can be obnoxious or insulting to me over my non-drinking.
(And this is even though I don’t sit in judgement of them. I don’t care if other people drink.)
I’ve had drinkers act like I am a fuddy duddy, wet blanket, just because I don’t drink beer or whatever. Or because I am drinking soda at a party rather than beer.
I’ve even been asked by drinkers (who see me with tea or soda) if I am a recovering alcoholic. It’s like they live in this weird world where they cannot comprehend other adults choosing not to drink just because they don’t like it.
So for every religious judgmental guy who makes you feel bad for drinking beer by quoting Bible verses, there is an equally judgmental beer drinker who gives teetotalers such as myself a hard time, too. It really goes both ways.
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mirele wrote:
That’s because a LOT of churches either had tunnel vision on themselves and/or their Head Apostles/Prophets/Kings were salivating wishing they had Scientology’s clout.
Have her bring her Hog next time she does it.
Biker Xenu would definitely get in the news.
(And sudden flash mobs a la Anonymous also really enturbulate the Clears & OTs.)
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Daisy wrote:
I only hit the vino when I’m cooking Italian, myself.
And (warm with honey) as a folk remedy for a sore throat.
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Lea wrote:
AKA REVEREND Apostle/Pastor’s Precious Bodily Fluids.
Of which many REVERENDs are all too willing and eager to spread around.
(“I did not know that woman in a Biblical sense.” — Doug Phillips ESQUIRE)
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@ Daisy:
I’ve gone out to bars and parties otoh and elected not to drink and it’s never been an issue, but I do drink sometimes. It’s very strange to think anyone cares what you drink. Maybe it’s that I don’t particular care what people think one way or the other. Although if people aren’t drinking I generally don’t either.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Is this a real quote??? Man.
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elastigirl wrote:
I have it in my DVD collection. It’s sober warning of what can happen when technology becomes an end in itself rather than a discretely applied tool to arrive at various legitimate ends.
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Lea wrote:
Haha, true. Although, this is elementary-level stuff, so they should already have a basic grasp of it.
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Edward wrote:
Maybe get the pharmaceutical companies that make Viagra, etc. to sponsor some seminars?
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Off topic for just a second. Kathi, who co-writes with Julie Anne over at Spiritual Sounding Board, posted this amazing Aretha Franklin song “How I Got Over”. (Mahalia Jackson’s beautiful song.)
Move the furniture, take off your shoes, and dance…people!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg5PZtSTTN4
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Daisy wrote:
I just say, “Oh my doctor doesn’t let me right now.” Works like a charm.
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Daisy wrote:
Yeah I don’t drink either, due to an alcoholic Father & Grandfather. Why take the risk that I could be more prone to issues? But some people really don’t take kindly to my choice.
And I really hope Perry Noble sorts himself out, for the sake of his wife & kids. It was too late for my Mum & us, but if my Dad can get off alcohol & have a second family, so can anyone.
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Christiane wrote:
Actually it is fairly easy to google what is going on with the megas and the music, lights, etc. It is all designed or crafted to release specific endorphins and brain chemicals and is a very sinister form of crowd control, imho.
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Edward wrote:
You mean a bona fide education? Real scholarship? Critical thinking skills?
Not a chance at many of these “franchisee” schools, oops I mean “seminaries”.
The whole point at many of these seminaries (including John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary, the Southern Baptists seminary, and others) is to have a bunch of clones
with zero critical thinking skills. Stepford-husbands, one and all.
The seminaries would have to get serious about scholarship, hire men and women professors, drastically change how the seminaries operate, and risk losing power. And they simply don’t want that.
It’s all about mind-control and money-making.
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Velour wrote:
That’s never going to happen at John MacArthur’s The Masters Seminary. MacArthur’s website is riddled with fraudulent scientific claims. He dug in to YEC way too deep to ever back out.
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Ken F wrote:
I figured this out when I was at a joke of a NeoCalvinist church with the head pastor, an uneducated graduated of John MacArthur’s The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary. The “cherry on the top” of his sub-par education is a “Ph.D.” purchased from an online diploma mill in Missouri for $299.
I come from a family in which even elderly women who were Christians in my family had hard science degrees from top universities and worked on teams of Nobel Prize-winning researchers. Even women scientists in my family didn’t believe this Young Earth Creation nonsense.
I look at the mountains and know that they are more than 6,000 years old. The word “yom” in Hebrew, used in the creation story, has 58 different meanings including “a long time”.
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Christiane wrote:
Indeed.
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As reported by the Christian Post website:
“Perry Noble has reemerged on social media following his firing as pastor of NewSpring Church due to issues related to alcohol abuse, and revealed that he is checking into a treatment facility, and will fight for his family.”
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/#fkJ20JrxCoqmeKZk.99
Ok, good that he is seeking help. But, for once, just once, can these pastors who get in trouble PLEASE STAY OFF SOCIAL MEDIA AND JUST GO AWAY?!?!?!?!?
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Dan from Georgia wrote:
If Perry Noble was in a legitimate alcohol rehab program, in-patient, he wouldn’t be permitted to be on social media.
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True dat Velour!
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Bill M wrote:
How did they keep grape juice from becoming wine way back before refrigeration? And in a super-hot climate, yet?
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
It was Gospel(TM) Grape-Juice(R).
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Ken F wrote:
It was John “Sour Grapes” Calvin Grape-Juice, for the Elect-only. That heathen fermented stuff was for those (Non-Elect) destined for the hot place.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Would love to hear Volfan007’s answer.
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Slightly off-topic: I have a Facebook friend whom I’ve known online for years, from way back before I joined FB; we hung out at a board or two together. This gal is a classic PCA Calvinist, but we’ve always gotten along really well. She is a smart, funny, well-rounded person, with whom I share a passion for Jane Austen and P.G. Wodehouse.
Well, I’d just assumed that, as a PCA person, she would not be keen on all this Neo-Cal / YRR stuff. Wrong. When I posted the link to that creepy, intrusive Capitol Hill Baptist new-member inquisition, she defended it, while admitting it was “too mechanistic.” Yikes. Then I asked her about ESS. I figured for sure she would have issues with that. But she said it was complicated and nuanced, and she didn’t understand all the arguments, but she did not think it was either semi-Arian or heretical.
I did not know what to say, and I didn’t want to get into an argument with her. But this is a very smart, discerning woman falling for this stuff. I am in shock, seriously.
Neo-Calvinism is like a contagion, infecting even people who would normally know better. Wth!?
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I knew a retired pastor who was a mega church preacher. He told me that oftentimes church growth has little to do with the pastor, but with the people in the pews. “Let’s make Perry Noble great again,” almost grazes the surface of pastor worship, which seems common in evangelical circles and is not a recent phenomenon. Megachurch pastors can be phenomenal on the pulpit but they have feet of clay like the rest of us. Wish pastors and their flock were more aware of a pastors humanity.
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linda wrote:
Like the Parasymp mind-control organs used by the Heirarchy (a corrupt one-world religious dictatorship) in Fritz Leiber’s Gather, Darkness!
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Velour wrote:
But if he’s a ManaGAWD in a Biblical Noutheic rehab…
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!!!”
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Velour wrote:
“Yom means day,
Yom means day,
Yom means day…”
— Ken Ham, when told different by Jesus himself in a cartoon over at “God of Evolution”
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linda wrote:
I can’t help but recycle this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RJBd8zE48A
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Based on the six years I spent in a PCA church in high school, PCAers would be very comfortable with neo-cals. I see no difference in the two groups as both are hyper-conservative Calvinists. Now, there’s usually guy who pops up about now to defend the PCA. Sorry Mr. PCAer, I have much experience to back up my low opinion of the PCA.
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elastigirl wrote:
Amen. I wish facilitation was taught instead of “leadership”. Instead of understanding how various individuals can exercise gifts and abilities to develop each other and organize in an ad hoc manner, it is leadership leadership leadership which is control control control. Ever notice how many leadership books and seminars there are? “Be a leader!!!” “10 steps on becoming a great Leader!!!” Check out your local Christian bookstore, if one still exists, and compare leadership books with those about being a servant. Absence of a “leader”, one man in charge, does not mean anarchy. Do we need to be reminded our model is Christ, not Alexander the Great?
I wish the example you describe was the universal model that is taught, emphasized, and practiced whenever possible.
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Velour wrote:
Wow! That’s great!
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My point exactly! He obviously doesn’t have a sponsor… that would have NEVER been posted!
@ Velour:
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Ray wrote:
It’s not even just a sponsor, it’s actually a whole team of treatment providers (medical) supervising in-patient care. That’s what should be happening. And it’s obviously not happening in Perry Noble’s life.
If he’s on his own devices, he’s probably drinking.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
How many years do you give Ken Ham’s park before it goes bankrupt?
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@ Patriciamc:
Glad you liked the song.
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Patriciamc wrote:
PCA heroes Tim Keller and Ligon Duncan are pals with TGC and the neo-Cal movement, and so all of their buddies get promoted in the PCA as well. This diagram helpfully muddies the waters:
https://twitter.com/chortlesweakly/status/566642226013671424
In my town, the larger PCA churches have at least a latent neo-Cal influence. Any of the “Old-School Confessionalists” that show up in the lower right of the diagram are in smaller, country churches; although, even those pastors typically have an assortment of Piper and Keller on their bookshelves. Not to mention the PCA church that promotes Doug Wilson…
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Have you tried sending her links by complementarians who are critical of ESS?
The complementarians at this site do not support ESS and critique the works of those who do:
http://www.alliancenet.org/category/section/mos
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Today’s House of Driscoll report: It was hot, I forgot my hat (but not my 50 SPF sunscreen) and I didn’t do a car count because I was just so very hot. The cop was out there, I made myself look really silly by running along the sidewalk waving my sign in one hand and waving with the other hand to get the attention of Grace Driscoll, who waved back.
Mark has planted a cross in front of his church, but it’s currently encased in scaffolding because the bottom end is pointy and not exactly conducive to staying upright. I’ll send a pic to our blogmistresses, maybe they can describe it better.
One of my Jewish friends (also a old-time Scientology protester) made a remark I thought was terribly appropriate, based on the picture: “Driscoll’s church is not terribly impressive. It’s no crystal cathedral. More like a Spiritual Dollar Store.”
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mot wrote:
I was tempted to jump in on that conversation, but I figured my comments would get deleted. They don’t like it when women are brazenly direct.
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mirele wrote:
Cheap, in more ways than one?
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Nancy2 wrote:
You are right. They do not like to be challenged at SBC Voices by women but some stupid comments flow at that site that the other boy commentators will not challenge.
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My point was that something as simple as a sponsor would have stopped this! But agree with you 100% I have yet to hear he’s in treatment… just talking about going. @ Velour:
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mirele wrote:
Thanks for the report and your hard work.
(I’ll have to remember to pack a couple of hats in my car too, as I always forget at this time of the year.)
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In my younger years, we went to a church that was led by a Man of Gawd. We helped build that church. Bit this pastor was not the person he seemed to be. I can’t count the number of times of heard the phrase – “Touch not God’s annointed”. He was after all a Man of Gawd. This pastor hurt so many people in his church it’s not even funny. But still to this day, some die hard fans of his think he was just the greatest pastor around. Even after he died, they were still saying this. But my family knew better. Thankfully my parents took our family from that church when I was around 13 or so. The rest of my teen years and part of my twenties was spent in another church (of the same denomination), with 2 very loving, kind, compassionate true ministers of God. I have yet to find another minister like those 2 from my past. I know there are churches out there like the one I want to attend, but I can’t find them. I even listen to the music portion (on occasion) of Jimmy Swaggert’s tv programs, as I was raised on this type of music. I just don’t like the 7 – 11 songs. The songs they sing 11 times with 7 words, aren’t my style.
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Ray wrote:
Oh, your point was fine, Ray. I didn’t mean to say contrary. Apologies.
I agree with you. A sponsor would tell a person not to make a fool out of themselves, to sit down, shut up, etc.
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Chemie wrote:
My job had me living in Southern Italy for a few years. The organized crime mob there is described as “The Octopus” because their tentacles are everywhere. I don’t know if that part of Italy can ever be cleaned up because the network is so pervasive. It’s both scary and disgusting. When I started to investigate new Calvinism I was freaked out by the similarities. For anyone wanting to take the time to investigate, the connections are incredible.
Here is just a basic intro:
– Mark Dever (founder of 9Marks), Ligon Duncan (Chancelor or Reformed Theological Seminary), Al Mohler (President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) and CJ Mahaney (does he even have a job anymore?) are the co-founders of Together for the Gospel (T4G).
– Together for the Gospel has many Calvinists speakers, including all of the above plus John Piper, John MacArthur, David Platt, Matt Chandler, Kevin DeYoung, Thabiti Anyabwile, RC Sproul.
– John Piper’s Desiring God website has articles by just about any Calvinist, including Doug Wilson and CJ Mahaney.
– T4G is tightly connected with the Gospel Coalition (TGC).
– TGC was co-founder by Tim Keller. The council has an impressive list of all the usual suspects.
– The Gospel Project is a family oriented educational curriculum that appears to be mostly led by Trevin Wax. Trevin Wax has numerous articles posted on TGC. The Gospel Project is a curriculum you have to buy to know what’s in it. What is available on the web has links back to TGC, so those two efforts are tightly entwined.
– The Founders Ministry has its roots in the Conservative Resurgence that started in the 1960s. At first glance it appears to be a separate effort. However, the webmaster, Stan Reeves, planted Grace Heritage Church in Auburn, AL. Grace Heritage is on the list of churches for both 9Marks and TGC. And he references 9Marks in a lengthy article he posted on his church plan effort. Also, articles from Founders authors are available on TGC.
– Other connections in the US include Acts29, Soma Communities, The Verge Network.
– I recently found a reform effort in the Church of England that has connections with TGC, Tim Keller, and JI Packer. I found that connection by accident.
This just scratches the surface. It’s not hard to find the connections, it just takes a little time. It’s truly an octopus with tentacles everywhere.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Can you comment under a male name?
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Patriciamc wrote:
You write very well for someone that spent 6 years in high school!
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Chemie wrote:
Good heavens! LOL. What a mess. Oh, I read on Christianity Today that the PCA will take up the subject of female ministers again. I’m sure they’ll bathe in their sanctified testosterone to get those pesky female cooties off them.
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Ken P. wrote:
Let me see, 4..5…hmmmm. I got lost. LOL
Actually, I went to the same school for grades 7 – 12. In the 8th grade, we started at the PCA church since most of my friends went there. So, that makes, don’t help me…5 years!
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Ken F wrote:
Where is Jesus Christ in all of this?
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mot wrote:
Who?
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Ken F wrote:
Exactly! I do not think they know him or have any desire to be like him IMO.
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mot wrote:
Good question.
The boys have each other, granted.
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mot wrote:
There is a HUGE reason that this is so true.
An old song from the sixties goes
“. . and Jesus was a sailor and He walked upon the water, and He spent a long time watching from a lonely wooden tower . . . ”
sometimes if any REAL Christian ‘leader’ feels he needs to ‘be raised up’ in the eyes of his ‘followers’ in order to be respected, all he has to do is to imagine how Christ was raised up. Then he will quietly walk away from all thought of pedestals; because he knows that the Only One who ever deserved to be on a pedestal, chose the Cross instead.
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Y’all, thanks for the PCA info. Yikes. I had no idea.
I try to keep my FB page fairly non-polemical, because frankly I don’t have time for the drama. Plus, I really like this person, and I don’t want to antagonize her. So I probably won’t challenge her further re the ESS thing. I’ll just pray!
But y’all’s info was very eye-opening!
Meanwhile, a former boss of mine — a wonderful guy — is an ex-PCA-er turned Anglican. Apparently he had a horrible experience at the local PCA parish; I don’t know the details, just bits and pieces. But it seems that no one was there for him when he was going through his personal hell. He is a true sweetheart. He now heads up an Anglican economic-opportunity group in Rwanda. More power to him and God bless him!
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Christiane wrote:
Leonard Cohen!!!!
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@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
YES! ‘Suzanne’ (Judy Collins) . . . gosh you must be REALLY old too 🙂
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
This is called Simony. Do you know why?
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Christiane wrote:
I’m 65!! And loving it — I get to retire this year from my toxic corporate job. Woohoo!! Age has its privileges. 😉
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
YES! I retired from teaching some years ago and have done some tutoring (volunteering) . . . five surgeries have prevented me from going on all those trips I thought we would take, but c’est la vie. Actually, my husband who worked for Lockheed Martin tried to retire but they hired him back for two days a week . . . he had special knowledge that they needed so he agreed and they paid well (amazingly) and he recently stopped working in his early seventies. HIS health has failed somewhat after the final retirement. That was difficult, yes.
Sometimes I think my husband and myself would have stayed healthier if we had just kept on working. 🙂
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
We found the same. There were a few very nice people, but overall the people in the church just were not friendly. They could talk Christianity, but they couldn’t “do” it. Over the years I’ve learned some surprising information about some of the people in the congregation. This taught me a valuable lesson: the more people yell how holy they are, the less holy they really are. After that, I found more true Christians across the street with the “heathen” Methodist.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Indeed.
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Edward wrote:
There was no meat-eating before the fall–it’s pretty clear in Genesis. But we don’t hear too much about THAT (as opposed to the claims fermentation etc.).
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bc wrote:
Interesting number. It’s about the same number I’ve run across re: Internet/gaming addiction rates.
It makes me wonder if there isn’t some sort of “norm” rate of addiction in endorphin-producing activities.
Including, perhaps, attendance at “worship” with a high-endorphins-producing band.
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Lea wrote:
Sadly, yes.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/10/31/doug-philips-resigns-from-office-of-president-at-vision-forum-discontinues-speaking-engagements/
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I think we are in complete agreement! I am waiting to hear when he ACTUALLY starts going to treatment. I was amazed that he was online posting 14 days after he was fired and STILL NOT IN REHAB! (and probably not going to meetings!) @ Velour:
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PaJo wrote:
IMHO, I think it is more than just the band. My former church exudes more of a casino atmosphere with light shows, stained glass windows blacken over to create a black box, costuming, etc. Vegas. Show biz. Sexy. Cool. Attractive. Pretty young things attend and form pretty young things small groups. Bit older cool handsome guys combing the crowds to connect with them. Guys that do extreme sports on the side. All very fit and in the right apparel. Very hip. Very sensual.
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elastigirl wrote:
I love that movie! They televised it here again this weekend, but I forgot to tape it. Boogers… 🙁
One character in that story that often occurs to me, when discussing church abuse, is Auto, the robotic auto-pilot of the space station. Not so much in regards to Noble, but more with the complementarian gurus like Piper and Grudem. They remind me a lot of Auto: slavishly following a centuries-old directive (or their interpretation of it), heedless of changes in the world and willing to hurt others to accomplish their mission, and forcing everyone else to do the same.
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Dave (Eagle) wrote:
We should have learned by now in 21st church that just because a “pastor” is called “senior”, “lead”, or some other superior title, it doesn’t mean they necessarily have something to say.
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PaJo wrote:
I feel what might be the addiction center in my brain clicking when I play skeeball for tickets. I know that sounds ridiculous, and I’ve been to the casino before without any ill effects, but it makes me think that maybe it wouldn’t be a good idea to get too heavily involved in gambling. In my family, we generally play cards for bragging rights alone, and maybe that’s best for me!
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Crazy.
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Leslie wrote:
Yep, charisma should not be a qualifier for a man of the cloth – indeed, the best spokesmen for God do not carry that label. Likewise, control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. Most folks in church leadership these days are not equipped to be there when you consider the qualifications set forth in Scripture.
He must be “of blameless reputation, he must be married to one wife only, and be a man of self-control and discretion. He must be a man of disciplined life; he must be hospitable and have the gift of teaching. He must be neither intemperate nor violent, but gentle. He must not be a controversialist nor must he be fond of money-grabbing. He must have proper authority in his own household, and be able to control and command the respect of his children. (For if a man cannot rule in his own house how can he look after the Church of God?). He must not be a beginner in the faith, for fear of his becoming conceited and sharing Satan’s downfall. He should, in addition to the above qualifications, have a good reputation with the outside world, in case his good name is attacked and he is caught by the devil that way” (1 Timothy 3:1-7).
He must be “blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it” (Titus 1:6–9).
Raise your hand if all the pastors in your community meet these qualifications. Are they known by “self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined” lives? We are not producing a holy people in the pew because the pulpit is not holy in far too many places. But do American “worshipers” really want a pulpit that will exhort them to holy living? In the mega-mess we have created under the name “church”, the pew is as much to blame for pastors who fall; we are attracted to preachers who are no different than we are.
Coupled with Leslie’s question “At what point should someone be qualified for leadership?”, we should also be asking ourselves “What should a Christian look like?”
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Lydia wrote:
Keep telling it right and “Your righteousness will go before you, and the Lord’s glory will be your rear guard” (Is 58:8). The Lord Jesus will watch your back!
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ishy wrote:
Yep, toeing the party-line seems to be more important than Christian integrity. We are seeing the results of a generation of young pastors not qualified for the task being unleashed on the church. If they are not starting a church out of rebellion, they are taking over one. Church planting programs seem to be more about planting theology, than churches … the new reformation is all about moving as quickly as you can with willing young rebels while the window is open.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Soooo … prop him, let him preach, and pass the plate?! Good Lord, what have we come to?!
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Velour wrote:
He is much, much too visible in reformed theo-politics for a guy who works for a publishing house which should be representing the belief and practice of majority Southern Baptists, which are distinctly non-Calvinist.
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Hi Serving Kids In Japan
Looks like “Wall-e” can be seen on line. Try this.
http://megashare.sc/watch-wall-e-online-TkRFPQ#
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Lydia wrote:
The best church growth model is pretty simple: “Tell me which way you want to go and I’ll get out in front to lead you!”
The only thing scarier than such leaders are the really scary folks who follow them! Their churches are always right on the edge of an accident waiting to happen … and when it does, a lost world looks on and says “I told you so; there’s nothing to it!”
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I love Wall-E, too!! And Up and Ratatouille and Finding Nemo. And I cannot watch Monsters Inc. without crying my eyes out.
Alas, ever since Pixar was wholly absorbed by Disney, they’ve mostly been doing sequels. The crazy, zany, uber-imaginative creativity is gone. 🙁
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Lydia wrote:
They carved out their own gimmicks that worked without having to jump onto the New Calvinist bandwagon … but probably would have if their own gigs hadn’t worked out so well. There’s money to be made in the reformed ranks of the young, restless, reformed, and gullible.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher, did you see my post to you yesterday (it’s on this page, several posts above):
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/07/15/perry-nobles-fans-and-critics-the-good-the-naive-the-painful-and-the-perplexing/#comment-268521
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Lydia wrote:
Exactly. Their call for unity is not to be one in Christ, but in oneness to the theo-political maneuvering at hand. The best way to maintain harmony is to not inform or misinform the pew, hoping for them to remain willingly ignorant. Which is the greater sin? To sit in apathy while your denomination and church trends toward a theology you don’t agree with? Or to challenge the rebellion by standing up to question it?
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Daisy wrote:
Oops, sorry, yes I did. Thanks so much!!
I will consider sending those links. I don’t want to stir up a hornet’s nest, because she really is a good friend whose friendship I value….and I am a wuss!!!
But maybe I owe it to her to send the links. Thanks again!
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@ Max:
Yup – Thems bein sum tuff qualifications for elder/overseer. 😉
“Most folks in church leadership these days are NOT equipped to be there when you consider the qualifications set forth in Scripture.”
Seems today, most who call themselves “pastor/elder/overseer” just “Ignore,” or “Twist,” these qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus, so they can maintain their “Titles,” pastor/leader/reverend, that comes with Power, Profit, Prestige. And when you challenge and compare their aberrant behavior with the listed qualifcations you become the enemy.
Damn the qualifications – Full speed ahead.
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brian wrote:
“Religion” leaves a trail of hurting folks. Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. If the institution called “church” in your area is keeping the Main thing the main thing, equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry, and engaging the Body of Christ to fulfill the Great Commission, it is OK. If not, it is just another institution which is focused on religion more than relationship.
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Christiane wrote:
Which is why numerous SBC churches did not adopt the BFM2000, preferring the content of the BFM1963 instead. When you toss aside a Christocentric interpretation of Scripture, you are treading in dangerous water.
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@ brian:
“I don’t understand why religion needs to always hurt so much?”
Religion gives God a bad name.
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Ken F wrote:
Such rebellions always end by implosion. Unfortunately, they always leave a wake of disillusioned folks who may never return to church again. Whose strategy would that be?
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mot wrote:
Yep, the “Conservative” Resurgence quickly turned into a “Calvinist” Resurgence. I don’t think that even some of the CR leaders fully expected the pendulum to swing back 500 years and retrieve John Calvin!
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mot wrote:
Well, some corners of it are definitely acting cultish these days. However, the mainline is still holding onto Truth in belief and practice, but significantly challenged by the aberrations coming through the chute.
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Bill M wrote:
So, Volfan’s argument doesn’t make sense biblically, scientifically, or in any other way. And yet, he insists on making it.
He’s kinda like this mechanic. (Scroll down to the “Herman” cartoon towards the end.)
https://postcardsfromhaiti.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/just-a-groovy-little-motorbike-2/
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Ray wrote:
I’m in complete agreement with you.
Perry Noble should have been escorted on an airplane to an in-patient treatment center.
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Ken F wrote:
“Yer makin’ us all look like jerks! I toldja, READ A BOOK!!”
– the super-villain Handy, from “The Tick”
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
He and others like him also use the Bible selectively to prohibit women for serving the Lord in whatever way he wishes to use them including being a pastor. But, ah if you do play along with their silly use of words you are a LIBERAL. To misuse the Bible the way they do what are they?
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Max wrote:
I also think that some of these CR boys that pushed out others from their jobs are going to one day very soon be looking for a job. The Non-Cals will be treated as if they are LIBERALS. The CR IMO was a monster that has produced MONSTERS!
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A. Amos Love wrote:
Thanks, Amos! I’ve seen it before; just a bit peeved at my own forgetfulness.
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Max wrote:
In other words: Uniformity, instead of unity.
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Max wrote:
The big boys of the SBC would love to make every association, every church in that association, every worker at all of the state conventions, etc. sign a document that they agree with the 2000 BF&M.
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mot wrote:
They only care about being literal when it benefits them.
If they don’t want to do something, or think it’s silly, or heavens even not part of the modern cultural (greeting with a kiss!) they feel comfortable discarding it.
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Lea wrote:
I believe one of the greatest mistakes the SBC has ever made was prohibiting women to be pastors. Why not just let each church decide if God has led them to have a woman pastor?
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
“SPOON!!!!!”
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Ken F wrote:
A history of the French Revolution would be helpful.
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JYJames wrote:
A cult is a religion without political power.
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mot wrote:
I’m wondering how many years the NeoCals have left before they implode. (Even the Puritans ended.) Scandal after scandal, church after church, pastor after pastor. Their fanboys and girls are outted as unethical, dishonest and even abusive.
Owen “Sanctified Testosterone” Strachan recently resigned from the Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood (his father-in-law who teaches a semi-Arian heresy about the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son is behind CBMW.
9Marks (Mark Dever & Co.) are under fire for all of the abuses and authoritarianism that they have espoused. Dever has been criticized for re-branding the 1970’s abusive, authoritarian, un-Biblical heavy-Shepherding Movement in 9Marks language. And of course as astute posters have noted here, there is only ONE mark of a Biblical church: LOVE. And LOVE didn’t even make Mark Dever’s list.
A defensive Mark Dever came out with the “don’t practice church discipline just yet” message.
The Southern Baptists are losing 200,000 living members a year, people fed up with the antics.
The Southern Baptists, who have been teaching the subordination of women in marriage/Comp, now have the distinction of an ugly pay-back: the highest divorce rate of ANY denomination in the nation (Barna study). Atheists do better at keeping their marriages together than Southern Baptists.
I think the love-affair with NeoCalvinism is over and they are feeling the heat.
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mot wrote:
You are far too logical and reasonable. (And it appears are practicing a real Gospel.)
Alas the NeoCalvinist leaders who have done a stealth take-over of the Southern Baptists don’t see the running of churches the way you do. The NeoCalvinist leaders claim that they know best for everyone and display contempt for everyone else — women, the people in the pews, well even our Lord. Jesus is not needed, because Calvinists are The Elect and going first class to Heaven. The Holy Spirit? Who is that? The priesthood of believers?
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Ken F wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBw8vUdtH2A
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bc wrote:
Simon Magus from the Book of Acts, who tried to buy the Holy Spirit for cash.
“GO TO HELL AND TAKE YOUR MONEY WITH YOU!”
— Simon Cephas Bar-Jonah’s reply to his offer
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PaJo wrote:
That’s the rationale behind the Vegan T-Rexes at Ken Ham’s theme park.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Using the foolish things of the world (like Disney cartoons) to confound the Wise…
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Max wrote:
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again:
SIXTY YEARS AGO IT WOULD HAVE BEEN COMMUNISM INSTEAD OF CALVINISM.
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Deb? Dee? GBTC?
Lot better pic up top than the last few posts.
I’d much rather see that mini-Mothman than PASTOR Perry’s mug; his pics always have a creepy vibe.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
XD XD
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Yes. SBC leaders are essentially calling for uniformity rather than disagreement; harmony but not unity.
Unity or harmony? There’s a difference. According to my old Webster, “Unity” is a continuity of identity without deviation or change. “Harmony” is a pleasing arrangement of parts. Harmony says to the diverse parts “let’s try to get along, even if it means change.” Unity says to the primary identity “let’s stick together, lest we change.”
I was young and now I’m old … and during my journey I’ve come to discern what genuine unity looks like when the Church moves forward as one in Christ. What is unfolding within SBC is a compromise for the sake of harmony, not unity … a call from SBC leaders to agree to disagree, to get along to go along, to make room under one big tent for theological diversity. When it comes to God’s plan of salvation, majority Southern Baptists can’t afford to be harmonious, but unified.
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Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Okay. I didn’t mean to be pushy or what not, I just couldn’t tell if you didn’t see that post. 🙂
If you don’t feel comfortable engaging her on that topic further, I understand.
I have online friends whom I disagree with on some subjects. Sometimes we agree to disagree politely and can discuss stuff, other times, I feel any further discussion would become too heated, so I just drop those subjects.
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Max wrote:
But the greatest of these is ……… charisma.
Maybe in their “bible”.
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Velour wrote:
I continue to be stunned that over 1000 SBC missionaries were brought home and the SBC leaders had said little to nothing about this.
My heart hurts for these missionaries that trusted the SBC leaders and who received the shaft from them.
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Max wrote:
A lot of people need to “have a little talk with Jesus” about that.
I will say that in my area of rural Kentucky, most average pew peons have no idea what’s going on. But, I fear that most of them would say, “That’s ridiculous”, if anyone tried to inform them.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Well, talking to Jesus certainly wouldn’t hurt anything! But Southern Baptists really need to be having a family talk with their pastors about this. As SBC wades deeper into this mess, I hold the pastors at 45,000+ SBC churches at fault for not informing their members about the proliferation of Calvinism in their non-Calvinist denomination. While the giant slept, New Calvinist leaders were put in place at most SBC entities, including most seminaries, home and foreign mission agencies, publishing house, and numerous new church plants. And the pew ain’t got a clue, because their pastors were silent about the theo-politics which will manifest changes in belief and practices as we go forward. On the other hand, would the SBC masses really give a big whoop about a drift in theology as long as you don’t lay hands on their potluck dinners?
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Velour wrote:
The Southern Baptists are losing 200,000 living members a year, people fed up with the antics.
I continue to be stunned that over 1000 SBC missionaries were brought home and the SBC leaders had said little to nothing about this.
My heart hurts for these missionaries that trusted the SBC leaders and who received this stunning sort of treatment. They even had to sign a document that they would not talk about their being brought home to receive their retirement benefits.
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@ Nancy2:
We’ve always voted and communicated with our feet, rather than waste words on deaf ears. I don’t think we’ve ever been engaged in a congregation where we have a voice, so to speak. Sad but true. The leadership and the group moves as they will, and we’ve never been able to figure it out. Either we’re on board, or we leave. Those are the choices presented. There’s a subtext and we obviously don’t speak the language.
That is what makes TWW so engaging – the subtext is put right out there, things are explained, questions are asked, responses are hashed out, real life examples illustrate, fact checks are made, no stone is left unturned. TWW is a completely different experience – spiritually, practically, eyes wide open with love and dignity and truth. Genderless, too – or both genders equal?
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mot wrote:
Because if you allow one then many others will follow. The supply of “pastors” would increase by the number of women who are gifted or ambitions and the price/salary for pastors would decrease. Also, the status of being male in the church would decline because women can do the same things men can do in a pulpit/sacred space.
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@ Max:
You quote the qualifications for elder/overeer in (1 Timothy 3:1-7), and (Titus 1:6–9).
Then you challenge folks…
“Raise your hand if all the pastors in your community meet these qualifications.”
In my experience… NOT many, if any, are willing to question a pastors qualifications.
At least NOT when they are busy contributing money to their upkeep.
Here are a few more “character traits” to challenge folks, and pastors, with.
Ten “character traits” for pastor/elders, and ALL His Disciples to cultivate.
Since elders are to be “living examples” to the flock. 1 Pet 5:3…
Are the pastors and elders in your community…
Living Examples of…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
10 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
10 – Humility – a modest, or low opinion of ones own importance.
10 – Do you know many pastor/elders…
who have a modest or low opinion of their own importance?
In my experience, the number of pastor/elder/leader/reverends, Who actually teach, and practice these 10 – Who teach, and practice, “Submitting one to another” – Who teach, and practice, NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory. Who teach, and practice, NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles. Who are “Clothed with humility” haveing “a modest or low view of one’s own importance,”
Is Quite Small… 😉
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
But, he did know her in a very UNbiblical sense!
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@ A. Amos Love:
Indeed Brother Love … such pastors are rare and endangered species. It is refreshing to actually run across such a man. I’ve known only a few church leaders in my 60+ year Christian journey who practice what they preach, who walk what they talk (heck, some of these new young pastors aren’t even talking that way!)
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mot wrote:
Under the Gospel bus.
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Velour wrote:
No clue. Never been much at that kind of prediction.
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Velour wrote:
“Sour grape juice” is also called “wine vinegar”.
Which explains the vinegar dispositions of The Elect.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’d give it 7 years. We’ll see. Maybe less.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Tee hee hee. My covered dish that is in very high demand at fellowship meals at our church is my broccoli salad. The dressing has red wine vinegar in it! They don’t know it, but they ain’t t-totalers, not in the purest form, anyway!
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@ Max:
Christiane wrote: “the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message left out ” The criterion by which the Bible is to be interpreted is Jesus Christ.””
Max wrote: “Which is why numerous SBC churches did not adopt the BFM2000”
+++++++++++++++++
late to the game, here, in putting pieces together. why did they leave this out?
my guess is that it gives them more freedom and flexibility to interpret Paul & others in ways that are convenient.
this convenience comes down to keeping control of $ & the industry which fuels their careers; by keeping control of the plebians.
They keep control of the plebians by keeping answers to hard questions neat and tidy. By eliminating critical thinking, so as to forestall further challenging questions. By suppressing dissent and revolt.
Seems to me Jesus in word and deed is something of a wildcard. Paul and others seem to be more practical, which means steps to take, directions to follow, & rules. these things work nicely into thought systems that can be tied up neat and tidy. By contrast, Jesus in word and deed seems more on the esoteric side. And no NT writer captures it all — Jesus in word and deed escapes being systematized by Paul & others.
Paul & NT others present rather detailed & organized systems of thought. Jesus does not. much more convenient to limit criterion for interpretation to Paul, etc.
i don’t think SBC leaders (christian leaders in general) know what to do with Jesus.
in all honesty, for many years i focused on Paul because i didn’t know what to do with Jesus, either. i think i was looking for answers for what i should do in this, that, & the other situations of my life. I was a young adult presented with so many unknowns about my future, trying to find my way, trying to make my life work. i was looking for instructions, as if the bible were an instruction manual for how to operate the machine of me & my life (& others and their lives? to a certain extent, it’s probably true.)
SO….. thank you for reading. i’d appreciate your and anyone’s thoughts on why Jesus is left in the lurch (except for perfunctory allusions).
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Velour wrote:
Hard to determine but be sure you define a year as 365.25 24 hour days.
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@ Gram3:
mot wrote: “Why not just let each church decide if God has led them to have a woman pastor?”
Gram3: “Because if you allow one then many others will follow. The supply of “pastors” would increase by the number of women who are gifted or ambitions and the price/salary for pastors would decrease. Also, the status of being male in the church would decline because women can do the same things men can do in a pulpit/sacred space.”
+++++++++++++
nicely to the point.
supply and demand… i’m no student of economics (creative person here, lost in a world of creating beauty and meaning through the arts). but, deductive reasoning is kicking in at the moment, & a quick search on supply & demand produced this:
“monopolistic practices…although it’s reported that is the approach that De Beers took. It’s even been reported that De Beers purchased large supplies of diamonds from its competitors and simply stockpiled them in order to gain control over the diamond supply.”
https://www.quicksprout.com/2012/08/16/how-to-manipulate-the-law-of-supply-and-demandand-make-a-lot-more-money/
i dunno…. i see comparisons to christian culture.
makes me sick. what a shameful, stupid religion. which jesus transcends, of course.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I corrupted the ex-church with my Tequila Lime Chicken. By the way, they loved it.
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FW Rez wrote:
ROFL.
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FW Rez wrote:
GREAT LINE!
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I found this post and it is very disturbing to say the least! I know it’s off topic here a bit but I find this reprehensible and again it go’s to show that safety for those who fellowship inside these churches is not a priority for these people. This is Grace Bible Fellowship of Sunnyvale Ca. Here is the post!
It’s a serious matter that a convicted child pornographer on Megan’s List is in church ministry with access to children. Can you identify this child pornographer and can you provide evidence of his conviction (court docs…the Megan’s List) and evidence he was/is in ministry at GBFSV?
Megan’s List has the child pornographer who lives in Cupertino, CA. He was put in charge of a team of people at church.
Sex crimes specialists around the world have been extremely critical of the GBFSV pastors/elders for what they did saying that sex offenders should NEVER be put in any kind of trustworthy or leadership position. And that they should be ministered separately from the regular congregants and from children for safety.
He has also been given access to go to all GBFSV events, including things like the weekly Bible study I attended. Parents brought their young children to the Bible study. No one in the room, save me, knew that this man was a felon, a Megan’s List registrant, and a convicted child pornographer.
I don’t have court documents on his case. He’s on Megan’s List. I have spoken to the Sheriff’s sex offenders’ task force about him, they are his supervising law enforcement agency.
I did watch the sex offender run his hands through a friends’ little boy’s (age 4) hair. Friends had no idea the man was a sex offender and didn’t see it. Pastors/elders said it was no big deal and it was fine. I said, “It’s a VERY BIG DEAL. It’s called grooming. It’s how sex offenders get children to trust them.”
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@marquis,
That was my ex-church and that was my post.
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@marquis,
So as not to derail this thread, we should move the topic about my ex-church over to the Open Discussion thread.
Thanks for your concern. (I am working on getting them banned from the denomination that rents to them. I heard back from that other denomination’s leadership. I also got my ex-church banned from several more Christian schools and renting their gyms for basketball camp and any other activities for children. Those leaders thanked me and have strict policies already in place which my ex-church violated.)
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Mine as well, and we are not alone.
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Velour wrote:
oh sure Velour sorry about that I will absolutely move the thread. Glad you are on this. I saw that post and was astonished and needless to say upset! Anyways I will take it over to where you suggested.
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elastigirl wrote:
Elastigirl, my guess is that your guess is right on! The BFM2000 revision trends toward Calvinism and provides sufficient wiggle room for that theology within a non-Calvinist denomination. Anyone who follows New Calvinism knows that they give the writings of Paul precedence over the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It’s as if the Pauline epistles are the only Bible they need! New Calvinists particularly adore certain passages in Romans and Epistles which they twist to support the tenets of reformed theology. If you cut Jesus out of the center of Bible interpretation, you can more easily use Paul to defend your theological platform in ways that are certainly more convenient for your ministry agenda (e.g., subordination of women, authoritarian rule, etc.).
When I get into discussions with young Calvinists in my area, I advise them to tune out the teachings of their New Calvinist idols and read Jesus for a while (the gospels). I you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong. But if you read Jesus first, the writings of Paul come into perspective.
The BFM2000 revision committee defended deletion of the Christocentric criterion of Bible interpretation by saying this: “This statement (Jesus is the criterion) was controversial because some have used it to drive a wedge between the incarnate word and the written word and to deny the truthfulness of certain passages.”
Talking about driving a wedge between Jesus and the Word!! The New Calvinists have darn near cut Jesus out of the Word! Of course, you can’t do that because Jesus is the Word and He will continue to expose that and those which go contrary to His message.
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elastigirl wrote:
I think you’d be surprised by how many dissidents don’t dare and come out of the closet so to speak. I think that it might be a function of prudence and how much said person has invested in the ‘system’.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn knew this well and had the courage to choose conscience.
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marquis wrote:
Oh, I am so glad for your support!
You and your son and I (and others) have been through the ringer in some of these terrible churches. Our hostesses here – The Deebs – likewise saw terrible things in some churches (with their husbands, including the issue of child abuse) and were equally alarmed.
Anyway, we can chat away on the Open Discussion thread. (My post had nothing to do with you, by the way, and I don’t want you to think that way at all. I’ve had to be reminded to move topics over to the Open Discussion too.)
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Velour wrote:
They would love my Veal Marsala and my Coq au Vin, not to mention my bourbon balls and pecan rum cake at Christmas time 🙂
Oh, the joy of cooking!
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Well, that’s not very complimentary of YRR intellect.
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Christiane wrote:
Oh yummy.
If you ever wish, post some of your favorite recipes at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab. Recipes include: Nick’s Yorkshire Pudding, Gram3’s Key Lime Pie recipe, GovPappy’s Sour Cream Pound Cake.
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Max wrote:
whoops; meant to say Romans and Ephesians
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Max wrote:
Is that another of those proverbial oxymorons, like “Microsoft Works”?
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@ Christiane:
I recently discovered, by a combination of luck * and judgement **, smoked mushroom and white wine sauce. The smokiness comes from pepperoni or chorizo. And it needs some finely chopped red onion.
* Whatever was left in the fridge
** My intrinsic awesomeness
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Max wrote:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who???
Paul’s epistles are the Gospel(TM)!
Thus, obliterating John’s introduction stating that Jesus is the Word!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Okay. Y’all make me feel even more backwoods country than I thought I wuz.
Tonight, white beans with fried bacon crumbled in ’em; ripe tomato relish; cornbread; green onions; and fried green tomatoes; home canned pickled beets, pickled squash, icycle pickles, or bread and butter pickles in the pantry if you want. …… Sweet iced tea or Pepsi to drink!
Hey, I do cook pizza, teriyaki chicken, etc., but we gotta eat those green tomatoes and onions while they’re in!
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@ Nancy2:
Oh, there’s buttermilk in the fridge, if you wanna crumble some cornbread in a glass! Our Great Pyrenees goes bonkers over cornbread and buttermilk!
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@ Christiane:
Can you post these recipes on the recipe part of TWW?
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Nancy2 wrote:
P
Nice doggie! I like dogs but I live in such a little space and it is unfair for dogs not to have a space to roam.
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@ Max:
They are modern day Pharisees.
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Nancy2 wrote:
It’s all relative Nancy2. I still miss an old-fashioned Wisconsin fish boil out in the country. Pure heaven.
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JYJames wrote:
Yes, please! At the top of the page under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab.
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Mark wrote:
Agreed. They may talk about grace, but they deliver the law.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Muff,
I’ve read that South Carolina has http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/frogmore-stew
Frogmore Stew.
What is in the Wisconsin fish boil?
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Velour wrote:
It depends on a lot of factors. One of them: Is Ham still continuing his cockamamie lawsuit against the state of Kentucky, to get back his precious tax incentives? If he is, he could run out of capital in a hurry. It’ll be like pouring money down a hole.
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I’m sorry if this has already been posted. I have not read it yet. I thought I’d post it because it’s related to the OP:
How Perry Noble’s Alcohol Firing by NewSpring Compares to Other Churches
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2016/july/how-perry-noble-alcohol-firing-by-newspring-church-compares.html
“Stats suggest a substantial number of pastors struggle with addiction, but are split on what to do about it.”
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Velour wrote:
It used to be whitefish (in the old days, before they were harvested to near extinction) and yellow perch from Lake Michigan, crappies, bluegills, bullheads, and walleye from inland waters. Potatoes, carrots, celery, onions, turnips, tomatoes, you name it, all stewed together in great cauldrons.
It’s becoming a thing of the past though because the mercury levels in the wild-caught fish of the region are becoming unsafe.
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Max wrote:
All those parts where Jesus tells you to be a servant and love people? Problematic with their interpretations of Paul. Had to go.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Pyrs are great dogs!! Used to have a half lab/half pyr but had to send her to a farm (real farm, not a euphemism!) because she would break out of the yard and go swim in the lake and come home and sit in the yard and bark. Which would have been fine in the country…but kind of not ideal for town!
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Velour wrote:
This is why so many churches and public schools quit the potlucks and went to catered events. Not only were there those looking to corrupt with something like marijuana in the brownies, or LSD in the coffee, booze in the punch (happened in my daughters youth group),or tee hee Bourbon balls to trip up recovering alcoholics and the kindergardeners, and not but not least hepatitis
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Perry’s got another video up…
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Ray wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/nobleperry/videos/vb.163968103691689/1073020226119801/?type=2&theater
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Max wrote:
He’s lying straight to everyone’s faces. He’ll be back at NewSpring and everyone is going to welcome him with open arms. Just look at the comments. People right and left are falling for this and believing it, and NewSpring and Perry Noble have no shame in exploiting Christians and their gullibility.
This is what this man does. He deserves zero sympathy. He should be arrested and thrown in jail for FRAUD and not released until he is purged of contempt. That’s the rehab this charlatan needs. Am I the only one watching the video that felt like slapping this man across his face? This is absolutely despicable.
HOAX. HOAX. HOAX.
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Paula Rice wrote:
And what of people who want him to be “great again.” Arent they admitting by this quote it was all a illusion to begin with? So many of those critiqued here on Wartburg Watch are religious quacks. They feel no shame and like the ever ready bunny come back again and again and again.
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bc wrote:
Oh I know that there are plenty of nutty people.
Christiane and I are upstanding folks and were making light of all of the people who are die-hards (like the NeoCalvinists at my ex-church) who act like alcohol is on par with serving up illegal drugs. Very immature.
And apparently they don’t realize it cooks off in food.
I have friends who are clean and sober, can’t drink, and so I respect that. I agree with you about the rum balls and I’ve seen people (in denial) bring rum balls to gatherings of recovering alcoholics.
I just like to be respectful of the various views and get tired of the extremes.
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Muff Potter wrote:
Oh that sounds so yummy. I can imagine the good times that all of you had.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I haven’t checked that out.
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Mark wrote:
Totally agree. And those people you mentioned who want Noble to be “great again” are in the dark aren’t they? They’re deceived regarding the true nature of a person like Perry Noble, and they’d be appalled to see Jesus angrily driving a guy like him out of the Temple, whip in hand, declaring he’s turned His Father’s house into a den of thieves! Seems fitting to me that you can find a ROBBER in pERRy B. nOBle’s name!
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Velour wrote:
Strictly speaking, they’re right. Although boiling/cooking tends to reduce the concentration of alcohol, it only reduces it down to a level where water and alcohol are in equilibrium; this can be as much as 4% alcohol. The belief that it removes the alcohol is understandable, but it’s a myth. Chemistry – to be specific, thermodynamics – dictates otherwise. (Unless you also boil off all the water… but that’s harder than it sounds too. And of course it would ruin the dinner.)
Even a very well-reduced white wine sauce, such as my own excellent pepperoni, mushroom and red onion version, contains alcohol. For most practical purposes it doesn’t really matter, but if I were feeding someone who had a particular reason not to imbibe alcohol at all, I’d probably stick with a mushroom and pepperoni sauce and leave out the wine.
It is possible to separate ethanol and water completely, by various methods. But they’re complicated, and would also ruin the dinner.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
P.S.
IHTIH
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thank you for that info.
I do think that even if we don’t agree with a person it is better to not try to “corrupt’ them e.g. meat offered to idols, peanuts to those with peanut allergies, meat slipped on vegetarians, pork to jews/muslims/those that just don’t like it, pot in brownies, booze in the punch, diabetics and their problems etc. I am on 2 medications that state clearly that I should not have…… so I would not find it very Christian if someone got their jollies sabotaging my food or drink.
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Ray wrote:
So the Return in Triumph begins…
“IO, TRIOMPHE!”
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’ll have to stop using wine in my pasta sauces; my roomie comes from a family with a history of alcoholism.
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mirele wrote:
And Crystal Cathedral is no longer Crystal Cathedral, the OC’s first Mega.
It’s now “Christ Cathedral”, seat of the RC Bishop of Orange.
Land & buildings bought from the imploding Schuller heirs at the fire sale.