Mark Dever’s 9Marks Ministries – Initially Funded by a ‘Generous Neighbor’

"Matt's vision along with a generous donation from a neighbor allowed us to get started in November 1998."

Mark Dever – Table Talk interview

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Dever#/media/File:Mark_Dever.jpgMark Dever

The first time I heard about Nine Marks of a Healthy Church was close to a decade ago. I was involved in the re-planting of a small Southern Baptist church, and my pastor would sometimes mention Mark Dever and his ideas for having a healthy congregation. Tragically, I had just experienced first-hand what it was like to be in an unhealthy church.  What a disaster!  Some of the more influential elders had underhandedly tried to force out our pastor (the same one involved in this church re-plant). When he attempted to stay the course, those who tried to oust him withheld significant contributions, causing a budget crisis.  In the end, he had no choice but to resign. (Note to Mark Dever:  elder-led churches can also go astray… ) To those outside the church, it 'appeared' our pastor left voluntarily to resume teaching seminary classes; however, those of us on the inside knew the truth. 

Shortly after I first heard about the Nine Marks, I discovered that my pastor had contributed a chapter to the book Believer's Baptism, along with Mark Dever who wrote the final chapter.  I tracked down a copy of the book at LifeWay and purchased it.  After almost ten years, I still have it.  Around the time I bought it, I discovered that Mark Dever was a Duke grad, and I was surprised to realize that we were students there at the same time (I had matriculated a year before).  

It was around the time that I began attending this small Baptist church that an article entitled Young, Restless, Reformed appeared in Christianity Today.  I remember receiving my copy of CT in the mail and reading this article; however, not all of the names were recognizable to me.  More on that in a moment…

In the fall of 2008 Dee and I began researching trends in Christendom.  We were especially troubled by what appeared to be a growing authoritarianism in conservative churches.  We didn't understand where all of this was coming from, and we felt helpless to do anything about it.  After doing several months of reading, I went back and re-read Young, Restless, Reformed.  This time I knew every individual mentioned in the article, and it was the name C.J. Mahaney that greatly troubled me.  You see, Dee and I had spent a considerable amount of time reading SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge, and the portrayal of Mahaney in the CT article did not line up with the first-hand accounts of congregants who had attended Covenant Life Church (where C.J. had pastored for 27 years) and other Sovereign Grace churches.      

By the time we were prepared to re-launch our church in early 2009 I was deeply concerned.  It was during a Q&A session with our leadership that my husband and I realized we could not join.  All during the summer and fall we had been participating in 'community groups', and they were quite enjoyable.  However, they were being given greater emphasis as we moved toward our re-launch.  Someone asked what would happen if a member decided not to participate in a community group.  The response from one of our leaders was — "That individual would be put under church discipline."

WRONG ANSWER!  Suddenly, alarm bells were going off!  I couldn't believe this was happening in our sweet fellowship of believers.  Needless to say, we didn't join.  In the years that have followed, I have learned a tremendous amount about what is happening in the conservative corner of Christendom, and that brings me to today's topic…

Mark Dever's 9Marks is sweeping through congregations and changing the way churches operate, so I decided to do a little digging… 

Let's start the the beginning.  Why 9Marks?  Here is Mark Dever to explain.

O.K. If you watched the video, what are the nine marks?  Don't feel bad – I can't remember all of them either.  But the ones that especially stands out are leadership, membership, and discipline

It wasn't until I read an article over at Ligonier Ministries entitled Ministry in the Capital: An Interview With Mark Dever that I learned 9Marks was originally called "Center for Church Reform".  This article originally appeared in Table Talk on July 1, 2015.  It seems this name (Center for Church Reform) wasn't well-received, as the following screen shot from the article indicates.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/ministry-capital-interview-mark-dever/

However, I don't think that was the most important factoid in this excerpt.  As one who attempts to 'follow the money', it was this statement that jumped out at me:

Matt's (Schmucker) vision along with a generous donation from a neighbor allowed us to get started in November 1998. 

A generous donation from a neighbor? Hmmm…

Since Mark Dever doesn't reveal this neighbor's identity, we are left to speculate. 

Now take a look at Dever's remarks from an event held in 2004.

Notice how Mark Dever stressed 'generosity' twice.  We have no doubt whatsoever that he is being completely truthful in honoring his friend and colleague C.J. Mahaney.  We know that C.J. gave a substantial sum (in installments) to Southern Seminary (at least $100,000) as did Sovereign Grace Ministries (a minimum of $100,000).  There appears to be a pattern here.  While we cannot know for certain who provided the initial funding for 9Marks, we believe the 'generous neighbor' could have been Covenant Life Church and/or C.J. Mahaney (long time pastor of the church).  After all, he fondly calls Mark "O Captain, My Captain"

Another reason we suspect the seed money may have come from CLC and/or its pastor at the time (C.J.) is because the church had a tremendous budget.  Just look at the multi-million dollar facility this large congregation built in a relatively short period of time. 

Then there's the fact that when Mahaney's sons-in-law resigned from Covenant Life Church, the found shelter at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in the internship program.  They are listed as having finished in the Spring of 2012.

Another clue that Mahaney might have funded 9Marks in 1998 is the doctrinal shift that took place at Covenant Life Church, which we believe began in the mid-1990s.  Why then?  We believe it has everything to do with Mahaney's newly minted friendship with Mark Dever.  In his message Called, Loved and Kept, delivered at Capitol Hill Baptist Church on February 27, 2011, Mahaney states:

“Prior to the meeting, Mark informed me that today – that 133 years ago this day – the inaugural meeting of this church took place on this property, and I began to reflect on your history, and as I reflected on your history I began to reflect on my history with your senior pastor and this church. I began to reflect on my 15-year history, for 15 years ago at the kind invitation of your senior pastor, I found my way to that entrance to meet with your senior pastor. I was eager to meet him; I had heard much about him. I was not only eager to meet him, I was eager to learn from him, but there is no way on that day I anticipated the gift of his friendship over these past 15 years Mark is a true friend, and he is a CLOSE friend. He is not only a true and close friend, he quickly became a mentor, and that has continued to this day as well. I have learned much from your senior pastor and often will refer to him as “O Captain, My Captain”. It’s an expression of my heartfelt gratefulness to him and an acknowledgment of my deference to his leadership.

I didn’t anticipate 15 years ago all that would take place in my life as I arrived on this site (in) my relationship with Mark, and I didn’t anticipate all I would experience in my relationship with you. Mark and you – this church – have influenced my life and influenced all of Sovereign Grace and I am indebted to you, and I just want to say thank you."

We have always theorized that Mark Dever played a significant role in the doctrinal shift that took place at CLC and in PDI, which later became Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Based on Mahaney's remarks, he and Mahaney probably began their friendship in 1995 or 1996. The Tomczaks moved to Atlanta in 1996, and this is what they wrote in November 2011 about the drastic change in doctrine that took place in the mid to late 1990s (see screen shot below).

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/12/02/larry-tomczaks-story/

With Larry Tomczak out of the way, it's not hard to imagine that funds could have been diverted to Mark Dever / 9Marks.  After all, when the folks at CLC and in SGM found out that money was being given to a Southern Baptist seminary, there were understandably upset.  From what we understand, there was no accountability to the congregation regarding designated funds to other ministries. 

Mahaney's close friendship with Dever is quite obvious in a 9Marks interview called the Local Church with C.J. Mahaney which aired on February 14, 2003.  Another 9Marks interview between Mark Dever, Matt Schmucker, and C.J. Mahaney has disappeared, but I had the opportunity to hear it twice before it was removed from the website.  They question is:  Why?

And how about these glowing words by Mark Dever when he spoke a couple of years ago at Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville.

Who can forget the statement by Mahaney's T4G buddies — Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and Ligon Duncan – in 2013 immediately after the lawsuit was dismissed on a technicality. 

Back in 2008 Mahaney delivered another message at Capitol Hill Baptist Church which we highlighted in our post Mark Dever – C.J. Mahaney's BFF.  Here is an excerpt from his message entitled Adoption.

For all guests present today, it’ll be important for you to understand that the senior pastor of this church, Mark Dever, is a gift from God to me, and his friendship is a unique gift from God to me.

I lack the benefit of formal education, and so what I’ve done in order to compensate is I’ve created my own seminary, created my own seminary, I’m the president of my seminary, and I’m the only student in my seminary. I really like my seminary, and Mark is a part of the faculty of that seminary, and I have just benefited, you need to know, I don’t flatter, I have benefited immeasurably from this man, from his friendship, from his example, from his teaching, and from his instruction, and so I come with a deep gratefulness and a fresh gratefulness for his leadership at Together for the Gospel.

Even before we began blogging, we have wondered who put up the funds to get 9Marks off the ground.  After this intriguing statement from Mark Dever in last year's Table Talk magazine, we believe we are getting closer to the truth.

Comments

Mark Dever’s 9Marks Ministries – Initially Funded by a ‘Generous Neighbor’ — 384 Comments


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    First!?!


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    @ Loren Haas:

    Yes! You're up late like me. 🙂


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    And me!

    Some time back, I saw a copy of the IX Marks book on my pastor’s office side table where he puts books he’s intending to get around to. He said one of the elders had given it to him. (Huh-oh, I thought.) He said he’d only been able to give it a light skim. He didn’t seem too enamored with it and it disappeared after a decent amount of time. Good.


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    Thanks, Deb.

    Blech, about 9Marks. I will NEVER step foot in a 9Marks church again. Every single thing is solved with authoritarianism according to 9Marks, treating the priesthood of all believers with contempt, a complete lack of love (a point that Mark Dever seems to be proud of) shown for the saints, and a leadership that conducts themselves like the Roman Catholic Church (every senior pastor is a pope, elders/associate pastors are cardinals, complete with excommunications and shunnings).

    Everything is sold as a “return to Biblical basics”, including authoritarian Membership Covenants that are used like a crowbar for church leaders to insinuate themselves into members’ lives (attendance at Bible studies, what you feed your kids, absence from church, home décor, choice in friends, wanting to leave the church). Anything becomes a reason for church discipline. It’s bizarre.

    How many pages of a Membership Covenant did Jesus require that people sign to follow Him? Correct answer: 0 pages. Now that would be a return to “Biblical Basics”.

    Mark Dever stresses in 9Marks that you can’t let church members escape through the back exits. Why are they escaping? Why aren’t they free to leave? What’s wrong with you and your elders?

    Mark Dever says in 9Marks that you have to know who your church members are and can’t have them ‘on the rolls’ and not showing up for church. OK, Mark Dever, the solution is quite simple: Pick up the phone, call them, ask them if they consider themselves a member or not, if they’d like to be on the roster or not. Problem solved, no membership covenant needed.

    Mark Dever lacks love. A clanging bell. Full of himself. He has done so much harm to so many peoples’ lives. We don’t need 9Marks. We have the Holy Spirit. We have God. So much better than these men and their insufferable ideas.


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    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?

    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?


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    Ladies, keep going. I suspect you’re on to something with your gift of “follow the money.” Thank you for the digging you do.

    Another thing struck me on this article. MD wrote his 9 thing-a-ma-bobs when he was just 31? 31? Isn’t the average person probably better off learning about life rather than correcting everyone else around you at 31? I know the scripture where Timothy is told not to let people look down on his age, but from what I understand, Timothy was 44 by then. Wasn’t THAT the age considered an elder? I’m sorry. Maybe I’m being age-ist but it really strikes me as rather young to start an entire nation-wide “correction” ministry when you’re 31. Had he really seen enough of life at that point to be critiquing and correcting the millions of people who had lived longer and actually done so much by then?

    And yes, to every person 31 and younger, I get it that I sound ancient and crabby and I’m really not trying to be so negative but something about that struck me hard. Are we listening to wise elders or people who built their “stuff” at 31? Don’t get me wrong. I’m still figuring out life at my age. Not that I think I have my stuff together now. But there’s just something about thinking I have my stuff figured out at 31 and starting an entire movement where I am correcting / reforming an entire nation/church on how to do things RIGHT when I’ve only been less than ten years out of seminary that seems off to me. If you’re Jesus at 31, yes, go for it. If you’re not God, though, something just doesn’t sit right.

    Again, I hope you don’t feel dismissed or diminished if you’re 31 or under and reading this. You have tons to bring to the table which would help us all. But maybe don’t create an entire system for how to do things “right” and spend the next 24 years selling it because you think somehow you’ve figured out how to do something (which has been going on for 2,000 years) better than all the people who are twice your age. Yeah, def develop an app better than those older than you, yeah, def do a lot of things better. But are we really changing an entire church based on the thoughts of a man who hasn’t experienced enough churches by then? There’s just something there that is sticking with me and it seems fishy somehow.

    Stunned
    a very old sounding lady


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    Velour wrote:

    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?

    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?

    I was there in the early 00s, and the way it was explained to us newbies was “You see, there were all these people who were still on the membership rolls who hadn’t set foot in this building in YEARS! All we did was call them and ask if they would come back. If they didn’t, we dropped them.”

    Now, I also heard that there were several prominent elders (in both senses of the word) who did leave/were asked to leave due to their disagreeing with the new direction of the church. I have no details on this, other than their departure was portrayed as the jettison of folks who would rather have had the old congregation die as it was than make the change to the more “biblical” model.

    The dropping of people who no longer attend (unless it was for health reasons), I don’t have much issue with. The elders thing didn’t seem fishy to me at the time (and I *have* seen bad examples of “we’d rather die than change!” congregations), but the almost total lack of any overlap between the old leadership and the new did bug me, especially since all the new leadership was young post-seminarians who were personally (and constantly) mentored by Dever. And that was the key to my problems with the place – the leadership was, I guess still is, VERY insular. The Devers and most of the interns all lived on the same block on Capital Hill. They did *everything* together. If they had any other interactions with the congregation other than church functions and small group leadership, I wasn’t aware of it. And it was very clear that if you weren’t in that in-crowd, you weren’t “in”. And the authoritarianism was very strong, even then. A 25yo “elder” lecturing a 40yo congregant about how to treat customers at the church bookshop was not considered out of line in any fashion.

    But again, all this was/is sold as the “biblical” model, and they sell themselves pretty hard to people who want to be seriously Christian in an increasingly non-Christian culture. Which can make it hard to leave, even if you do recognize that they have fatal flaw. It was hard for me to leave because of that very thing (thank God I still had friends on the outside who could talk me back from the end of the branch).


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    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE! It is the first characteristic of God and to be Christ-like, aka a Christian, is love. Legalism is the antithesis of love.

    A church should be governed by the body of believers, and those who have been Christians for decades, true elders, should lead, with a huge dose of humility.


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    Velour wrote:

    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?
    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?

    Yep, the number is accurate.

    “So, after we revised that covenant, then we were in the position to begin asking people to either sign it, well, forget the either, just to sign it in order to be a member of the church. And so, in the Spring of ‘96, we went through a several month process of weeding through our church membership and getting our membership from about 500 down to about 250. When we dismissed at one members meeting, back in May of ’96, I can’t remember, about 256 members, I think. I think that was a crucial point for the church. I think the church began to understand that someone isn’t saved by having their name on the members list. Someone is saved by having a relationship with Christ, and if they’re not evidently living that out in front of us, it’s not appropriate for them to be a member. It doesn’t mean we don’t think they’re not a Christian, it just means we’re not in a position as a church to know. So, if you’re interested, you can certainly contact the Center for Church Reform to find out more about how we specifically did that.”
    -From an interview of Mark Dever
    http://sites.silaspartners.com/cc/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID626262_CIID1639966,00.html

    Here is an article by Jonathan Leeman, Dever’s Lieutenant, where he fondly tells of a church that excommunicated 575 members!
    https://9marks.org/article/church-disciplines-575-members/


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    Reading all of this leaves me with a system, church structure, that is not truthful, dare I saw deceptive? At least Mark Driscoll was very open about “throwing under the bus” people that did not agree and he also bragged about “borrowing” equipment from other churches…..


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    I think it was Brad the futurist guy that recommended a book to me titled “The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Eccliesiolgy” by S. David Moore.

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    “The movement taught that submission to a shepherd provided spiritual “covering” by being in a right relationship to God’s delegated authority in the church. The shepherd assumed responsibility for the well-being of his sheep.” (page 74)

    “Prince illustrated the depth of these covenant commitments by comparing them to the marriage covenant…
    Practically, covenant meant “abandoning the option to quit” in relationships.” (page 77)

    “The movement stressed the need for male leadership, with strong fathers and husbands in the home. It was understood that women were not to have governmental leadership in the church, and emphasis was placed on the very different roles in the Scriptures for men and women. Women had assumed roles that properly belonged to men. They were also concerned over the weak, effeminate stereotypes often ascribed to ministers and pastors.” (page 79)

    Mumford disciple Dick Key and other men signed written covenants to be committed to their pastor and fellow leaders. Scott Ross, who had only been with the movement a month, was one of the few men who did not make a commitment. He stood and said he needed to talk to his wife before he could take such a major step. Mumfrod recalled, “It was like putting a wet blanket on the whole thing.” (page 90)

    “DuPlessis commented that “Mumford has become known as the Pope in Ft Lauderdale.” He continued: “I am almost convinced that these brethren are establishing their own kingdom or Church, and that they are definitely anti-other churches.” (page 99)

    “Pat Robertson was the first to raise concerns after the agenda was set. He was forceful in expressing his charges and asserted, “The authority is the Bible not the shepherd; our covering is the blood not man.” Robertson charged the CGM teachers with usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in the live of a believer and demeaning all Christians by calling them “dumb sheep.” Robertson told the group that the Ft Lauderdale leaders taught one thing publicly and another privately. He said the cell group approach was divisive and exclusive.” (page 102)

    Also contributing to this decision to stop the conferences was their emphasis on the role of male leadership. The conferences, especially daytime sessions, were attended mostly by women. They believed this was counterproductive to establishing male leadership in the home, since they were making wives more spiritual than their husbands.” (page 58)

    =================
    From the 9Marks website:

    Who Should Attend a Weekender?

    The Weekender is designed for men who are, or aspire to be, church leaders. This includes pastors, elders, deacons, lay leaders, seminarians, and more.

    “May I Bring My Wife?”

    Men often ask if they can or should bring their wives to the Weekender. We generally discourage it because the schedule is extremely full and the sessions are only open to the registered participants. If wives do come, they are welcome to attend the church’s public meetings (Membership Matters, Core Seminars, Sunday AM and Sunday PM services).


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    The thing that jumps out at me first is that even from the beginning they changed the name because they wanted to deceive churches! Because they didn’t want them to know they were being reformed.


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    @ Eeyore:
    Eeyore, the insularaty, etc sounds frighteningly like SGM/ Sovereign Grace Churches I knew. I had no idea someone who bragged of such a healthy church could have ever functioned in such ways. Has Satan so truly gotten ahold of the church that bad is confused with good and good confused with bad? Say it isn’t so. This grieves me.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    When we dismissed at one members meeting, back in May of ’96, I can’t remember, about 256 members, I think.

    I was attending at that time but I was just a college kid and had no idea what was going on behind the scenes. Crazy.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE! It is the first characteristic of God and to be Christ-like, aka a Christian, is love. Legalism is the antithesis of love.
    A church should be governed by the body of believers, and those who have been Christians for decades, true elders, should lead, with a huge dose of humility.

    Yes! The whole thing! Especially the love part!


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    Let’s assume this is true (and in all probability it is) and Mahaney donated a stack of money to help kickstart 9Marks.

    Because of this generous donation, and for the fact Mahaney patterned the doctrinal changes with CLC/SGM based on Dever’s instructions (his Captain, O Captain as well as his ‘Seminary Professor), Dever gladly took the Mahaney’s in when they fled Covenant Life?

    If the truth had been told, the Mahaney’s would have broken at least 2 of Dever’s 9Marks: discipline and accountability. Would Dever have allowed this if given all the facts? If so, then he did this as a favor in exchange for the money? That’s clearly unethical.

    I’m guessing Mahaney, as usual, stayed ahead of the story, and kept his buddies ‘informed’ based on misinformation.

    I'm guessing Mahaney blamed the entire problem on Detwiler and the congregation. He most likely painted it as a satanic attack against the doctrinal changes he made after following his “Captian’s” orders. Dever et al believed Mahaney had faithfully implemented the new Calvinism within CLC, and that’s what caused all the problems, so of course, they’d all rally to support and defend their brother. Supporting Mahaney meant standing with him as their new adherent! Plus, he had given them all so much money as proof of his commitment and loyalty to them, right?

    And they’re still committed to him on this basis, and have chosen to ignore the other allegations because it’s all slander and coming from Satan.

    The mistake they made was in believing Mahaney’s narrative and interpretation. That’s always the mistake people make with Mahaney. He is not a man to be trusted, but they’ve all fallen for him because of the money.

    Good job guys. Way to advance the Gospel.


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    @ Velour:

    I see that Todd has responded. Here is another article about the purge at Capitol Hill Baptist Church. It doesn’t seem nearly as dramatic. Looks like the CHBC congregation was elderly when Dever arrived. This article was published after the one Todd mentioned, perhaps for clarification?

    https://9marks.org/article/a-conversation-about-church-revitalization-with-mark-dever-and-jonathan-leeman/

    Jonathan: Mark, let’s talk about church revitalization. And to do so, I’d like you to give a “before and after” photograph of Capitol Hill Baptist Church—a quick snapshot of then, and a quick snapshot of now.

    Mark: In 1993, the pastor before me had resigned under not so good of circumstances. And the congregation was in the middle of a city which at that time was considered the murder capital of America. Since the 1960s, people had been moving out to the suburbs so a lot of the city-center churches had declined; many had moved out or just closed and sold their buildings. CHBC was no different; they had become an older congregation.

    Jonathan: What was the church like?

    Mark: Like I said, the church was largely elderly. The building was in disrepair. But the people were faithful; they loved the Lord. I wouldn’t say they had been that well taught, and they’d had a long series of short pastors. They’d had a long pastor in the first half of the 20th century, but from the end of World War II on they would change pastors about every five years. These pastors were all evangelical with perhaps one exception. They were all Bible-believing men.

    I think the congregation had adhered together around cultural things more than anything else: meals, certain kinds of music, programs, activities. And I think they took a sense of importance from where the building was located, you know, a few blocks from the Supreme Court and the Capitol building. That gave them a sense that we are in a place of unusual significance for the gospel to spread.

    Because of this, they were big on evangelism, a kind of Billy Graham evangelism, with altar calls and the like. And there were missionaries, most of whom were sent out in the 1950s under a Columbia College grad who was the pastor of the church and presided over a huge resurgence of mission activity. So I came into a long history of faithfulness.

    Jonathan: And at this point, how many people attended regularly? *

    Mark: About 130, most of them between 70-75 years old. *

    Jonathan: More than 20 years later, what does CHBC look like now?

    Mark: Now the congregation lives not in the suburbs, but here on the Hill. The last time we had somebody count, 55% of our members lived within one mile of the building. When I came here, very few people lived within one mile; even most of the pastors before me lived out in a parsonage somewhere in Virginia.

    The congregation is also a lot younger. The average age is now probably 30. We’ve maximized the seating, so now we have roughly 1000 people on Sunday morning — and the building is basically full.

    * Emphasis mine.


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    Eeyore wrote:

    I was there in the early 00s, and the way it was explained to us newbies was “You see, there were all these people who were still on the membership rolls who hadn’t set foot in this building in YEARS! All we did was call them and ask if they would come back. If they didn’t, we dropped them.”

    This was the selling point for “church discipline” in the SBC. Cleaning off rolls. Who could argue with that? But that is not the agenda they had in mind at all. That was just to get agreement on the concept of church discipline.

    After enough of this bait and switch over the years, one learns….hopefully….


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    @ Stunned:
    Dear Stunned,

    I agree with you. These young guys don’t have enough life experience or God experience to lord it over us. We’ve fought the good fight all our lives — and they want us to lick their boots?

    I’d like to ask another question.

    $100,000 really isn’t very much money. I’m sure other people at Dever’s church have given that amount and even more.
    Are we sure that’s all C.J. Mahaney or CLC did for Dever?

    Mahaney has admitted to blackmail in the past, which is why he lost his position. Could there be something in Dever and others’s lives that that warrants this level of fawning?


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    Deb wrote:

    Mark: About 130, most of them between 70-75 years old. *

    I do remember a lot of old people, but I thought that was pretty nice at the time. They had awesome potlucks.

    On the church discipline thing – if this were being used only for actual serious sins, like pedophilia, abuse, etc… I don’t think most people would take note of it. That’s it’s purpose, imo. Not to go after people who skip home group. Which is BSC.


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    So people were part of a church their whole lives yet wrote off when they were too old to attend regularly? IE, wouldn’t capitulate to the young punk demanding they sign something? And people aren’t ashamed of this?


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    Am I just being a total crank about this? Maybe I should stop commenting until I figure it out.


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    Stunned wrote:

    Am I just being a total crank about this?

    No you’re not, but I don’t know exactly what happened so I don’t’ know what to say.

    In general, though, I find some of these people display a distinct lack of love for their elders that is very troublesome. People (and women in particular) do not lose their value simply because of age. Maybe this is all just a financial calculation to them, but I hate this emphasis on younger people as the most important thing, and everyone else as disposable. A healthy church will have the old and the young. The elders (!!! I said it this way on purpose !!!) should be valued. What is wrong with this bunch of pastors that they are willing to dismiss them so quickly?


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    Janey wrote:

    @ Stunned:
    Dear Stunned,
    I agree with you. These young guys don’t have enough life experience or God experience to lord it over us. We’ve fought the good fight all our lives — and they want us to lick their boots?

    Speaking of youngsters, Owen Strachan took over the reins of the “Men are Better Than Women Club” two years ago at the age of 32. I am sure nepotism had nothing to do with the appointment. (Strachan is married to Dr. Bruce Ware’s daughter, Ware is a professor at SBTS.)

    https://www.evernote.com/l/AW4vALHuXaNPAqYb0DWBvXXEOTNc4FKhKeQ

    Additionally Grant Castleberry became the Executive Director of the “Men are Better Than Women Club” at the tender age of 29!
    ===============
    LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY | The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (CBMW) is delighted to announce that Grant Castleberry has just been named the Executive Director of CBMW. He will fill the role previously held by Dr. Owen Strachan, now the President of CBMW. At 33 and 29 years of age, respectively, Strachan (@ostrachan) and Castleberry (@grcastleberry) form one of evangelicalism’s youngest leadership teams.

    Strachan, President of CBMW, commented on Castleberry’s appointment: “CBMW is at a thrilling place in our organization’s life. In the face of impressive cultural opposition, we have tremendous momentum, surging interest from young evangelicals, and a young, fresh-faced, gospel-captivated staff. Grant Castleberry fits this profile to a tee. Though 29 years of age, he has proven himself several times over as a leader, serving his country, his church, and his family.”

    Strachan elaborated on Castleberry’s qualifications for service, noting that “Grant brings to the highly strategic role of Executive Director proven leadership ability, great passion for the Word of God, winsome courage, and an ability, quite simply, to get things done. I could not have asked for a finer man in this role. I can’t wait for him to get started so that, with profound gratitude to God for CBMW’s past, we can push this eminent organization forward into an exhilarating new season of ministry to Christ’s church.”

    https://www.evernote.com/l/AW6JHcVm4wJJtow4B61nki1kYfxCKniYfHY


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    (Waves five-six-figure check)
    “And THAT’s how you get invited back! (chuckle chuckle)”


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    Stunned wrote:

    So people were part of a church their whole lives yet wrote off when they were too old to attend regularly? IE, wouldn’t capitulate to the young punk demanding they sign something? And people aren’t ashamed of this?

    But they got such a Kickin’ Rave “Worship” Band!


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    winsome courage

    !!!! Why are they so obsessed with that word?


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    An Attorney wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE!

    Amen! Dave Hunt’s book exposing the ails of Calvinism is appropriately entitled “What Love is This?” One just doesn’t get that lovin’ feelin’ when he hangs out with New Calvinists. Weary, struggling folks who wander into YRR churches will soon learn “No man careth for my soul.” The Calvinist God is not the one I know, whose character is love for ALL people. Authoritarian rule, shunning those who question, subordinate treatment of women, arrogant leadership, preaching a determinist God, failure to proclaim the Cross of Christ for ALL people are not symptoms of a healthy church marked by love.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    winsome courage

    Super creepy expression. Sounds like they are applauding manipulation. Why doesn’t other people’s creep meters go off over this kind of stuff?


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    I see Lea’s creep meter goes off on that, too.


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    Stunned wrote:

    Super creepy expression. Sounds like they are applauding manipulation. Why doesn’t other people’s creep meters go off over this kind of stuff?

    I got a kick out of the “gospel-captivated staff.” I believe one could open himself up to church discipline if you author a press release without at least one reference to “winsome” and “gospel” something or other!


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I can’t wait for him to get started so that, with profound gratitude to God for CBMW’s past, we can push this eminent organization forward into an exhilarating new season of ministry to Christ’s church.”

    Ugh. Just ugh.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Grant Castleberry became the Executive Director of the “Men are Better Than Women Club” at the tender age of 29!

    Pursuing a PhD at Southern Seminary, with extensive re-tweeting and flattering of New Calvinist who’s who are sufficient qualifications for the job!


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    At 33 and 29 years of age, respectively, Strachan (@ostrachan) and Castleberry (@grcastleberry) form one of evangelicalism’s youngest leadership teams.

    And CBMW is proud that these men are young and unmatured in life. Great.


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    As far as an obsession with the word ‘winsome’ goes, it’s probably because they’re having more trouble winning over Christians to their way of thinking than they’re letting on.


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    Same with me…. silly me, I thought Christian ins were supposed be light.. i.e. truthful, honest, etc, etc… this king of “marketing” is not light and truth..
    Unfortunately, i have seen first hand this type of deception proudly talked about in campus ministries… how we need to trick people to get in the door….

    Lea wrote:

    The thing that jumps out at me first is that even from the beginning they changed the name because they wanted to deceive churches! Because they didn’t want them to know they were being reformed.


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    I am telling you, the older we get, the less we are thought of in this society….and the church is no different.
    Oh give us your tithe, but don’t dare to say a critical word….or any word….just sit there and take the abuse…


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    Stunned wrote:

    Another thing struck me on this article. MD wrote his 9 thing-a-ma-bobs when he was just 31? 31? Isn’t the average person probably better off learning about life rather than correcting everyone else around you at 31? I know the scripture where Timothy is told not to let people look down on his age, but from what I understand, Timothy was 44 by then. Wasn’t THAT the age considered an elder?

    I’m not 31 yet, but your point is sound. Joshua Harris was 21 when he wrote ‘I kissed dating goodbye’ and then he was promoted to lead pastor. He stepped down just last year – at about 40 years old to go back to seminary. The Reformed corner tends to promote young men into high positions of leadership / as elders and kicks out it’s elderly elders for being too old – not having the right ‘image’. It saddens me that a certain musician in my family wouldn’t be asked to play on stage because of it.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I got a kick out of the “gospel-captivated staff.” I believe one could open himself up to church discipline if you author a press release without at least one reference to “winsome” and “gospel” something or other!

    Like “People’s” and “Democratic” out of North Korea?


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    Bridget wrote:

    And CBMW is proud that these men are young and unmatured in life.

    With lotsa Precious Bodliy Fluids.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I am telling you, the older we get, the less we are thought of in this society….and the church is no different.
    Oh give us your tithe, but don’t dare to say a critical word….or any word….just sit there and take the abuse…

    How long before Mandatory Euthanasia to avoid contaminating Mandatory Youth?

    (Visitors to North Korea say they have NEVER seen an elderly or handicapped Nork.)


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    ““May I Bring My Wife?”

    Men often ask if they can or should bring their wives to the Weekender. We generally discourage it because the schedule is extremely full and the sessions are only open to the registered participants. If wives do come, they are welcome to attend the church’s public meetings (Membership Matters, Core Seminars, Sunday AM and Sunday PM services).”
    ++++++++++++++++

    so much to be annoyed, disappointed, frustrated about here. but what stands out at face value, like mt. Fuji: ‘wives’

    I understand that this quote in particular above was directly relating to the partner of the Weekender attendee. however, in observing reformed world (or YRR world, or whatever it all is), it often seems that adult people are referred to as either being 1) men, or 2) wives.

    my short stint at a church which unbeknownst to me had a reformed background was constantly referring to ‘men and their wives’.

    how do I find the right words to describe what it’s like being female and on the receiving end of this?

    if you’re a female who is married, it’s as thought you cease to be a person, an individual. the sum total of who you are (the multi-faceted diamond of you, your natural-born complex prisms and especially those you’ve cultivated and earned) is subsumed by your relationship to a man — who is allowed to keep his individuality. but not you.

    if you’re a female who is not married, you are invisible. irrelevant.

    if you respond to my comment here with an internal “well, of course not! of course you’re an individual. of course you’re relevant.”, think again. honestly appraise the reasons why such language is used in the first place. and awaken your empathy potential.


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    “generous donation”
    If true, the donation came from Mahaney, there are more accurate words for secreting funds out of an organization to fund something else.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    it often seems that adult people are referred to as either being 1) men, or 2) wives.

    So true. And ‘pastors wives’ are the only women allowed to do anything in their churches. When the bible (which they claim to be so fond of) specifically talks about the elder women, and widows, teaching the younger. It says not a thing about ‘pastors wives’ as an official church function.

    It also means that in their world, many of us don’t even exist.


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    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Unfortunately, i have seen first hand this type of deception proudly talked about in campus ministries… how we need to trick people to get in the door….

    It goes back a long time. I remember some questionable on-campus advertising for Campus Crusade events. One was a stage magic show featuring an “Andre Cole”; it was advertised as such, but failed to mention that Andre Cole was a CHRISTIAN(TM) stage magician whose show included his Testimony(TM) and ended with an Armageddon scare job and Altar Call.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    P.S. This was in the mid-Seventies during the peak of The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Christians For Nuclear War.


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    Jamie Carter wrote:

    It saddens me that a certain musician in my family wouldn’t be asked to play on stage because of it.

    Jamie, that makes me sad, too. This seems so upside down to the bible.

    And thanks for not taking offense at the age thing. When I was a teenager in my SGM/ Sovereign Grace Churches church, I remember there were two women who were in their 50’s. At homegroup I would stand with them at the social/snack time. I could not understand why all the women in their young 30’s would cluster together and chat with each other, instead of hanging with these older women. We had so much to learn yet they seldom hung with them the way I tried to. Made zero sense to me.


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    Lea wrote:

    And ‘pastors wives’ are the only women allowed to do anything in their churches.

    Not “Pastor’s Wife”.
    QUEEN BEE.


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    Stunned wrote:

    I could not understand why all the women in their young 30’s would cluster together and chat with each other, instead of hanging with these older women. We had so much to learn yet they seldom hung with them the way I tried to. Made zero sense to me.

    Because getting OLD is contagious.
    Like cooties.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not “Pastor’s Wife”.
    QUEEN BEE.

    By virtue of who she’s sleeping with.

    So Christian!


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    Velour wrote:

    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?

    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?

    The Coup is always followed by The Purge, Comrades.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    awaken your empathy potential

    Yes! Great phrase. Think they can replace the creepy “winsome” speech with empathy potential? One encourages manipulation while the other encourages love.


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    @Deb:

    I know this is “off-topic” and I do not wish to take away from the voice of the post, but was the church replant you attended located on Newton Road and has the initials CBC?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    how do I find the right words to describe what it’s like being female and on the receiving end of this?

    if you’re a female who is married, it’s as thought you cease to be a person, an individual. the sum total of who you are (the multi-faceted diamond of you, your natural-born complex prisms and especially those you’ve cultivated and earned) is subsumed by your relationship to a man — who is allowed to keep his individuality. but not you.

    if you’re a female who is not married, you are invisible. irrelevant.

    It reminds me of the video I saw where egyptian men would just dodge the question: “What’s your mother’s name?” In public, a woman would always be known as so-and-so’s wife, or as the mother of her oldest son.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF4ZslUqgDY
    Being a woman in that environment is losing your identity and your name.


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    @ Burwell:

    Interesting question. The church on Newton Road was not the church re-plant mentioned in the post, although it was a church plant from another Baptist church.  CBC was the first church we joined.. My husband, daughters, and I were charter members. Boy, was that a learning experience! 🙁


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    Stunned wrote:

    I could not understand why all the women in their young 30’s would cluster together and chat with each other, instead of hanging with these older women. We had so much to learn yet they seldom hung with them the way I tried to. Made zero sense to me

    I saw a church that advertised it’s ministries like this: High school (9-12th), College and Career (18-25), Adults 1 (30-39), Adults 2(40-49), Elders 1(50-59), and Elders 2 (60+). The stratification of age groups makes it difficult for the generations to interact, particularly for those of us in the non-existent 26-29 age group who don’t seem to fit into any neat categories. Almost every single elderly woman in my church was married and had one or two kids by the time they were my age, we’re just so different that I’m not sure how to relate to them and I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t know how to relate to me or my experiences. Discipleship / mentor programs don’t usually exist to pair up people across the generations, so there isn’t really any encouragement to interact with elders or youth. It’s not as if any elderly woman has approached me and said: “I’d like to form a friendship” or anything like that, it’s just common to leave everyone to their own devices these days.


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    @ elastigirl:
    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    A female is only an accessory to a male whose purpose is to mirror the male’s idealized self. This is a movement by and for narcissistic and insecure males. There is no need to denigrate women or cover such denigration with deceitful words in order to “joyfully” serve “their wives.” That is merely their cover story. This is about pure power over other human beings. This has nothing whatsoever to do with either the actual texts of scripture *or* with the example of our Lord. It has everything to do with the way of the world.


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    @ Gram3:
    It also has nothing whatsoever to do with the Gospel. The pure Gospel of Jesus Christ, that is.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    if you respond to my comment here with an internal “well, of course not! of course you’re an individual. of course you’re relevant.”, think again. honestly appraise the reasons why such language is used in the first place. and awaken your empathy potential.

    I also want to highlight this important point. There are some men who are well-intentioned who cannot grasp this simple point. That is, I believe, because they perceive a greater need to stand against the tide of culture, and that keeps good people from seeing such lack of even elementary empathy.


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    Deb wrote:

    Mark: Now the congregation lives not in the suburbs, but here on the Hill. The last time we had somebody count, 55% of our members lived within one mile of the building. When I came here, very few people lived within one mile; even most of the pastors before me lived out in a parsonage somewhere in Virginia.

    That is a VERY expensive area of Washington, D.C. The church itself is catty-corner (ed.) to one of the Congressional Office Buildings … if the congregation lives that close, it is comprised of both the fabulously wealthy and young congressional staffers who live 4 to 6 in a house.

    My sister and her husband lived behind the Supreme Court building for a couple of years. He is a physician, she worked for one of the various government agencies. Together, with a very healthy combined income (especially by NC standards), they could only afford a small one-bedroom apartment.


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    @ Todd Wilhelm:

    Thanks, Todd, for answering my question and the links.


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    @ Deb:

    Thanks, Deb, for the additional information about Capitol Hill Baptist Church.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I can’t wait for him to get started so that, with profound gratitude to God for CBMW’s past, we can push this eminent organization forward into an exhilarating new season of ministry to Christ’s church.”

    Ugh. Just ugh.

    They are delusional. Eminent organization? Exhilarating? The overwrought prose screams Owen BHLH whose signature word is any form of “thrill.” Special style points for teaming “exhilarating” with “season.” It appears that a 12 yo girl is the editor for the CBMW crew.


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    Eeyore wrote:

    But again, all this was/is sold as the “biblical” model, and they sell themselves pretty hard to people who want to be seriously Christian in an increasingly non-Christian culture. Which can make it hard to leave, even if you do recognize that they have fatal flaw. It was hard for me to leave because of that very thing (thank God I still had friends on the outside who could talk me back from the end of the branch).

    Thanks for your insights about Capitol Hill Baptist Church/Mark Dever/9Marks. I’m glad you got out. (I had a similar experience at a 9Marxist church. I’m glad that I’m out.)


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    @ Deb:

    CBC – A learning experience to be sure! My family and I have attended a couple of times and know many of the ruling class elders very well. However, we could never join as my income and our net worth isn’t close to what they require. 🙂

    We did consider joining once … my mom used to be a member. However, we took our daughter to youth group one night (her first time) and no one spoke to her, including the youth minister and his wife. To add insult to injury, I reached out to him and while I got a response, it did not include an apology.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    Mark: Now the congregation lives not in the suburbs, but here on the Hill. The last time we had somebody count, 55% of our members lived within one mile of the building. When I came here, very few people lived within one mile; even most of the pastors before me lived out in a parsonage somewhere in Virginia.

    That is a VERY expensive area of Washington, D.C. The church itself is catty-corner (ed.) to one of the Congressional Office Buildings … if the congregation lives that close, it is comprised of both the fabulously wealthy and young congressional staffers who live 4 to 6 in a house.

    Close to the MONEY and POWER.
    “AVE, CAESAR!”


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    Gram3 wrote:

    That is, I believe, because they perceive a greater need to stand against the tide of culture, and that keeps good people from seeing such lack of even elementary empathy.

    Solidarity for The Cause.
    (Party First, Comrade!)


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    Bill M wrote:

    “generous donation”
    If true, the donation came from Mahaney, there are more accurate words for secreting funds out of an organization to fund something else.

    IIRC, 9Marks operates as a ministry of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. That makes it difficult for outsiders to trace the flow of money.

    Looking at the interests involved in the Fab Four and how they might help each other, I note that Mahaney had lots of money and a demonstrated model for franchising his enterprise. But Mahaney lacked (and still lacks) academic respectability. Enter Dever with his academic credentials. But Dever was operating a small church with not so much influence. So, I think someone who knew both Dever and Mahaney (or possibly one of those two men) realized the potential of a partnership. Not for the Gospel, however. For their own legacies. Mohler had access to the resources of the SBC to promote the biannual trade show and produce a glut of young men eager to make their own place in the sun, and with OPM which is the very best kind of money. Duncan is/was a bridge between the generations in the PCA, so he brought that to the table.

    The T4g/9Marks enterprise formed twenty-odd years ago cannot be allowed to fail at this point or the legacies of all the men will be jeopardized. That, I believe, is why they have made the decision to hang Together and have “encouraged” young and ambitious lieutenants like DeYoung and Leeman and Jared Wilson to take point for them.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    Yes. Yes. Yes.
    A female is only an accessory to a male whose purpose is to mirror the male’s idealized self.

    Like Lead Pastor’s Silicone-enhanced Smokin’ Hawt Trophy Wife.


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    @ Burwell:

    I'm not at all surprised. We left May 1, 2005 and have NEVER looked back. I took one religion class while at Duke (wish I could have taken more), and my professor was a wonderful Christian. He was like a father figure to me.

    I'll never forget one piece of advice he gave me as I was graduating. It had to do with trying to fit a square peg in round hole. I realized at that church that I was the square peg.


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    It’s possible that the “generous neighbor” could have been a wealthy person in the area, but timing of Mahaney’s takeover of SGM cannot be ignored. Its definitely something to keep in mind and explains why they won’t or can’t boot Mahaney from the inner circle.

    But to take things further, perhaps Mahaney is somehow legally entwined with the IX Marks organization. John MacArthur has pulled back a little from T$G because of Mahaney’s charismatic background. I would think that if they had to chose between the two, Johnny Mac is the bigger name and has more influence. However, if they are somehow legally bound to Mahaney via IX Marks and/or Together for the Gospel then they would have no choice but to side with Mahaney.


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    Jamie Carter wrote:

    The Reformed corner tends to promote young men into high positions of leadership / as elders and kicks out it’s elderly elders for being too old

    They promote the young, inexperienced guys and isolate them from their wives’ influence, physically (she can’t attend, sign here before you talk with her, etc.) and mentally/emotionally (you’re supposed to make the decisions). These guys think they’re in charge when they’re actually being manipulated.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Mahaney had lots of money and a demonstrated model for franchising his enterprise. But Mahaney lacked (and still lacks) academic respectability. Enter Dever with his academic credentials. But Dever was operating a small church with not so much influence. So, I think someone who knew both Dever and Mahaney (or possibly one of those two men) realized the potential of a partnership.

    I believe the late Carl Henry recommended Dever to CHBC. Carl Henry was involved with the founding of Fuller Seminary, the National Association of Evangelicals, and Christianity Today. His son Paul Henry was also a Congressman from the mid 1980’s until the early/mid 1990’s. Dever was not without influence.

    I would think Dever just needed money to fund his ambitions at CHBC and Mahaney had it. Mohler’s way of handling things during the fundamentalist takeover of SBTS alienated a lot of the big corporate and institutional donors and he needs money also.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    my short stint at a church which unbeknownst to me had a reformed background was constantly referring to ‘men and their wives’.

    I also get red flags when I hear the phrase, “The leaders and their wives.” Because obviously, women can’t lead.

    One if our local church plants admits that they are going after men 20-40, because if you get the man, you get the whole house. They are tone deaf to how that sounds to women, and singles of both sexes.

    Devaluing women seems to be a core component of most religions.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    9Marks operates as a ministry of Capitol Hill Baptist Church. That makes it difficult for outsiders to trace the flow of money.

    Gram 3, do you have any inroads there, by chance? I still think *cough Dee & Deb* this money needs to be tracked more.


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    R2 wrote:

    Dever was not without influence.

    It would not surprise me if Dever also had other contacts with politically-minded Christians on Capitol Hill, based on my very tangential relationship to a Congressman and how he functioned with other Christian politicians and their staffers. I think Dever’s ambitions and Mohler’s and Mahaney’s and Duncan’s exceeded their spheres of influence at the time. Mahaney certainly brought in money and filled pews. For some reason I do not understand. Kind of makes me think this was and still is a political operation complete with operatives and propaganda.

    It is an intriguing puzzle to figure out how Mahaney fits with the others and why. Money and a road-tested business model is all I can come up with. Based on the fruit of this enterprise, I conclude (no doubt due to Bitterness) that this was about money, power, and legacy from the very beginning.


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    R2 wrote:

    However, if they are somehow legally bound to Mahaney via IX Marks and/or Together for the Gospel then they would have no choice but to side with Mahaney.

    I want to chase this rabbit trail. Mohler is loyal to his buddies but he has been known to disappear people who were close friends who did something to threaten his image. I suspect there is either a significant revenue stream or legal tie to Mahaney.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    Unfortunately, i have seen first hand this type of deception proudly talked about in campus ministries… how we need to trick people to get in the door….
    It goes back a long time. I remember some questionable on-campus advertising for Campus Crusade events. One was a stage magic show featuring an “Andre Cole”; it was advertised as such, but failed to mention that Andre Cole was a CHRISTIAN(TM) stage magician whose show included his Testimony(TM) and ended with an Armageddon scare job and Altar Call.

    I know of similar, and actually more deceptive examples that this… it bothered me back in the day, and it still does…. but, when numbers are what you are evaluated on….


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    Stunned wrote:

    Gram 3, do you have any inroads there, by chance? I still think *cough Dee & Deb* this money needs to be tracked more.

    If I did, the info would have been in TWW inbox. I do have some experience with church-affiliated entities and how that arrangement is used to shield the financial activities of the “ministry” and its employees. Form 990 is somewhat useful, but 9Marks is not required to file a 990. This is one of my many pet reasons for being generally peevish.

    I think “follow the money” is a good starting point. I just think that these men are not primarily motivated by money but by power and influence and legacy. That opinioned is somewhat tempered by the fact that I thought that is what Driscoll was about, too, but we found out otherwise. Naturally, they do need lots of OPM to accomplish their ambitions, and that means venture capital, perhaps from Mahaney and IMO almost certainly from Crossway (which is why I continue to believe that there is explanatory gold in their book contracts.) It also requires continuous positive cashflows from things like endless conferences/tradeshows.

    I think that they fancy themselves as the Calvin and Moses of their time.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    Yes. Yes. Yes.

    A female is only an accessory to a male whose purpose is to mirror the male’s idealized self. This is a movement by and for narcissistic and insecure males. There is no need to denigrate women or cover such denigration with deceitful words in order to “joyfully” serve “their wives.” That is merely their cover story. This is about pure power over other human beings. This has nothing whatsoever to do with either the actual texts of scripture *or* with the example of our Lord. It has everything to do with the way of the world.

    All of this. Yes.

    Sidenote: How on EARTH are they getting a thousand people in CHBC? They must have done some major remodeling. That place is small.


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    Has anyone looked at John MacArthur? He shares conference’s , the stage, and has these men speak at his TMAI and promote their books. J.M. seminary graduates also speak at the same conferences, shares the same platforms, and sells the books of C.J. Mahaney and Mark Dever in their church bookstores. They put them on their websites recommended reading lists. They use them for small group and bible studies. Maybe he is another big contributer along with his seminary grads. It’s something to look into.


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    R2 wrote:

    I believe the late Carl Henry recommended Dever to CHBC.

    Yes. D.A. Carson delivered Carl Henry’s letter to Mark Dever when he was living in England. I included this info in the following post from last summer.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/07/17/nine-marks-established-in-1997-did-devers-friendship-with-mahaney-have-any-influence/

    Andy Naselli included the info in his September 4, 2007 post (see below).

    http://andynaselli.com/c-j-mahaney-and-matt-schmucker-interview-mark-dever

    The interview took place on June 6, 2007. As usual with conversations involving Mahaney and Dever, this is hilarious (e.g., C. J.’s ribbing Dever about his intellectual childhood, lack of athletic abilities, and wearing a tie and carrying a briefcase to high school), fascinating (e.g., I didn’t know that D. A. Carson delivered a letter from Carl Henry to Dever in England that asked Dever to consider pastoring Capitol Hill Baptist Church), and edifying (e.g., Dever’s faithfulness to and love for God’s word and people).

    I am still wondering why the audio of the interview between Dever, Schmucker, and Mahaney disappeared. I listened to it a couple times before it went missing. It was quite entertaining. 😉


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    marquis wrote:

    Has anyone looked at John MacArthur?

    MacArthur’s connection with the New Calvinist movement seems strange to me. He is so old-guard Calvinist, he doesn’t fit with the YRR crowd and their small band of elite leaders. I guess they put up with each other to make sure reformed theology penetrates mainline denominations as deeply as possible while the window is open.


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    You're going back to the 90's and were right to be alarmed but let me tell you that Prince, Mumford, the Shepherding movement, to my knowledge began in the late 70's. Maranatha which was a serious control cult was going on during that time. Bill, snake in the grass, Gothard who was into submission, control, taking advantage of people and holding coliseums full of people seminars to the tune of big bucks with expensive books written by his sex maniac pervert brother. I guess all the hippies coming out of the dope fueled time were looking to be controlled because the number of none Christian cults such as TM, occult, etc were abundant and growing all over the place. A voice of sanity was not easy to find. I'm not excusing it but saying that it was a time filled with opportunists with evil motives and plenty of gullible being taken in.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    If the truth had been told, the Mahaney’s would have broken at least 2 of Dever’s 9Marks: discipline and accountability. Would Dever have allowed this if given all the facts? If so, then he did this as a favor in exchange for the money? That’s clearly unethical.

    Paula, I would go farther. I think Mark Dever violated 5 of the 9 Marks. I believe Dever violated membership, “The Gospel:, leadership, discipline and discipleship.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/9-marks-what-is-it-how-mark-dever-undermined-it-and-made-it-worthless/


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    Velour wrote:

    Mark Dever stresses in 9Marks that you can’t let church members escape through the back exits. Why are they escaping? Why aren’t they free to leave? What’s wrong with you and your elders?

    Why does Mark Dever advocate a system that sounds strikingly like the one totalitarian regimes use to subject their citizens to tyrants? Possibly because he is a tyrant and leads a regime as totalitarian as he can legally make it.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    There are some men who are well-intentioned who cannot grasp this simple point. That is, I believe, because they perceive a greater need to stand against the tide of culture, and that keeps good people from seeing such lack of even elementary empathy.

    Got it in one.


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    bc wrote:

    You’re going back to the 90’s and were right to be alarmed but let me tell you that Prince, Mumford, the Shepherding movement, to my knowledge began in the late 70’s.

    I think it goes back further than that, though not under that name. The not-a-cult I was involved with from approximately 1973-76 was classic Shepherding(TM), though they just called it being Truly Born Again and Spirit Filled.

    But then, there have always been control freaks who salivate at the thought of having their boots on the faces of the powerless. “For the hearts of Men are easily corrupted, and a Ring of POWER has a Will of its own.”


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    Max wrote:

    MacArthur’s connection with the New Calvinist movement seems strange to me. He is so old-guard Calvinist, he doesn’t fit with the YRR crowd and their small band of elite leaders. I guess they put up with each other to make sure reformed theology penetrates mainline denominations as deeply as possible while the window is open.

    FOR THE CAUSE, COMRADES!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I think that they fancy themselves as the Calvin and Moses of their time.

    If not God Himself.
    “*I* WILL EXALT *MY* THRONE ABOVE THAT OF THE MOST HIGH!”


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Jamie Carter wrote:
    The Reformed corner tends to promote young men into high positions of leadership / as elders and kicks out it’s elderly elders for being too old

    They promote the young, inexperienced guys and isolate them from their wives’ influence, physically (she can’t attend, sign here before you talk with her, etc.) and mentally/emotionally (you’re supposed to make the decisions).

    Isolation and Indoctrination.
    So nothing external can interrupt the Groupthink.
    Isn’t this classic Brainwashing?

    Plus, the carrot of Becoming a Big Dog in the New Order.


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    R2 wrote:

    It’s possible that the “generous neighbor” could have been a wealthy person in the area, but timing of Mahaney’s takeover of SGM cannot be ignored. Its definitely something to keep in mind and explains why they won’t or can’t boot Mahaney from the inner circle.

    The timing is just too convenient.

    The Humble One gets to stay in the Inner Ring because he’s the bagman with the deep pocket$. And there might also be some behind-the-scenes blackmail taking place (chuckle chuckle); the right dirt on the right people (like all those FBI files in the hands of J Edgar and later Hillary) makes you untouchable.

    Welcome to the Kingdom of God.


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    bc wrote:

    Gothard who was into submission, control…

    And underage Interns in denim jumpers…
    with Long…
    Wavy…
    Hair…


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    I wrote this the other day about gossip and slander.

    Excellent article, Eagle.

    I love how Elizabeth Esther compares what some call “bitterness” to a fear of dogs:

    For those of us who have had bad/traumatic experiences with churches or church-people, we may develop an aversion to All Things Church. The problem is that we are often shamed by other Christians for not being able to “get over” our bad experience. But as stimulus generalization demonstrates, our wariness is not an issue of sin. It is not an issue of rebellion or allowing “bitterness” in our hearts. It is, quite simply, a normal, biological response.

    If you have a fear of dogs, can you imagine someone telling you that you need to confess your grudge against dogs? Or saying you need to repent of bitterness? Can you imagine someone telling you that you need to forgive the dog that bit you—or worse, turn the other cheek?

    Of course not! And yet, this happens ALL THE TIME in a church context.

    http://www.elizabethesther.com/journal/2016/5/6/bad-church-experience-and-ideas-to-create-safe-spaces


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I love how Elizabeth Esther compares what some call “bitterness” to a fear of dogs:

    Once bitten, twice shy.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    FOR THE CAUSE, COMRADES!

    Wouldn’t it be lovely if the only cause was to love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself? Imagine how the world could change. Given that it’s His kindness which leads men to repentance, imagine those who would come to know Him, too! For it is not horses or might that this world changes, nor “correct” theology but by the blood of the lamb and the testimony of our mouths.

    If only.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE

    Love is not one of the nine marks, however. Isn’t that interesting.


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    Velour wrote:

    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?
    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?

    You will find the answer here
    http://sites.silaspartners.com/cc/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID598016_CIID1639966,00.html


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    May wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE
    Love is not one of the nine marks, however. Isn’t that interesting.

    No, but the 9Marx are because they love you – so they say. (Snark off)


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    @ lowlandseer:

    That link does not work.


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    @ GSD:

    “I also get red flags when I hear the phrase, “The leaders and their wives.” Because obviously, women can’t lead.

    One if our local church plants admits that they are going after men 20-40, because if you get the man, you get the whole house. They are tone deaf to how that sounds to women, and singles of both sexes.

    Devaluing women seems to be a core component of most religions.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    oh, crimany, yes, heard that one, too. I swear Christianity causes people to turn off their intelligence (intellectual, emotional, social), and regresses them to 4 years old.

    it is not true that ‘if you get the man you get the whole house’. i realize many church leaders believe that because MD said it, therefore it must be true (intelligence turned off, see?) but it is not — not here, not in America.

    re: devaluing women as core component of most religions — perhaps it’s the Abrahamic religions that major in this.


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    @ Bridget:
    Sorry Bridget. I think the capital letters need to be part of the web address.

    However I also found this on the Internet Archive regarding 9 Marks funding. I hope this works

    http://web.archive.org/web/20050315041627/http://www.9marks.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID616022%7CCIID1608294,00.html


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    @ Eeyore:
    Danvers is one long example of pretending to use the Bible to support an agenda which has nothing whatsoever to do with the Bible. Pay no attention to the stench from the rot occurring inside of the church (the internal threat.) The church is under ATTACK from the culture (the external threat!) So, to defeat the worldliness of the culture (and God is depending on us to do that!), we just need to adopt the world’s ways only with churchy and pious language. Because as long as the language is pious enough, it is not propaganda.

    I don’t think so.


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    Again it looks as if part of the address is missing. Maybe the guy behind the curtain can help?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    it is not true that ‘if you get the man you get the whole house’.

    Yeah. I’m thinking of people off the top of my head and I can’t think of many who dragged their wife with them to a church. I’m sure it happens, but it likely happens the other way around at least as often. And if a wife is not living in one of these ‘you must do as I say’ she may decide this new church is for the birds and leave, taking the whole family. Wouldn’t it be much easier and logical to attempt to make men and women happy in church?

    I guess you would have to think of women as people first…


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    Paula, I would go farther. I think Mark Dever violated 5 of the 9 Marks.

    I am certain, at this point, that the 9Marks do not apply to Leadership. How do I know that? By what they do and not what they say. Someone once said something about knowing a tree by its fruit.

    They have granted themselves a plenary indulgence. Life is good at the top. The ones at the top are supported by the ones beneath who want to be Ones On Top. Therefore, they do what they need to do to get there and tell themselves Because Gospel.


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    The following is the text from the section called “The Funding Provided”

    While Mark was presenting portions of the 9Marks material at a new members’ class for Capitol Hill Baptist Church, an observant neighbor began quietly listening in from the back of the room, often attending the same sessions more than once. Encouraged, he made three very generous donations over the next three years that helped fund the nascent work of the Center for Church Reform (CCR), which has now become 9Marks Ministries. Since then, the congregation of Capitol Hill Baptist Church has functioned as the primary sponsor, with financial contributions from other churches and private individuals appreciated along the way.


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    lowlandseer wrote:

    Again it looks as if part of the address is missing. Maybe the guy behind the curtain can help?

    You can just cut and paste the whole thing from the text of your post, and not worry about how the software parsed it into a link (looks like it choked on the double commas).


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I am certain, at this point, that the 9Marks do not apply to Leadership.

    Of course. You have to have an impossible number of witnesses and convince the entire staff of handpicked, yes men elders in order to prove wrongdoing by a ‘leader’. And then when you have, they just wave a check around at their friends place and hang out there, until somebody lets them join their denomination so their members can get the seminary discount. Or something.


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    May wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE

    Love is not one of the nine marks, however. Isn’t that interesting.

    Preach it.

    Real Jesus Love is sometimes very hard and sometimes tedious and boring and costly. Power is much more fun and appealing. The trick is to spell power L-O-V-E. As in “loving you well.” A variation on that theme is “push her under our care.”

    Yes, I am bitter on behalf of Karen Hinckley because she embodies the truth behind the lies being peddled. I guess that makes me also guilty of taking up an offense. Which are both, as we now know, much graver sins than covering up child sexual abuse.


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    Deb wrote:

    Mark: Like I said, the church was largely elderly. The building was in disrepair. But the people were faithful; they loved the Lord. I wouldn’t say they had been that well taught, and they’d had a long series of short pastors. They’d had a long pastor in the first half of the 20th century, but from the end of World War II on they would change pastors about every five years. These pastors were all evangelical with perhaps one exception. They were all Bible-believing men.

    I think the congregation had adhered together around cultural things more than anything else: meals, certain kinds of music, programs, activities. And I think they took a sense of importance from where the building was located, you know, a few blocks from the Supreme Court and the Capitol building. That gave them a sense that we are in a place of unusual significance for the gospel to spread.

    Because of this, they were big on evangelism, a kind of Billy Graham evangelism, with altar calls and the like.

    It’s almost as if he thinks the old fuddy-duddies were wrong to take a “sense of importance” from the location of Capitol Hill Baptist Church–whereas his motives are pure. And, you know, the fogies no longer lived within a mile of the place, so let’s just take the building away and give it to ourselves. Yet he describes a functioning congregation, even as he disparages it.

    The church where I grew up was firmly opposed to thinning the mailing list. That was considered to be a severe form of discipline, and an act of insensitivity toward people who might have held the place close in their hearts, even if they did not show up on Sundays. Keeping their names in the directory, and sending them an occasional newsletter, were forms of outreach if not plain decency.


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    @ lowlandseer:

    Thanks for this. I wonder what is meant by 'an observant neighbor'?  That wording sounds odd to me.


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    What’s fascinating to me is that none of the nine marks have anything to do with New Testament ethics. I mean, if I were just guessing without reading them, I would guess that “love thy neighbor” would be the first mark. Nope. I don’t necessarily have anything against the nine marks, but I’m also not ignorant enough to pretend that they are Christian.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    it is not true that ‘if you get the man you get the whole house’. i realize many church leaders believe that because MD said it, therefore it must be true (intelligence turned off, see?) but it is not — not here, not in America.
    re: devaluing women as core component of most religions — perhaps it’s the Abrahamic religions that major in this.

    I guess they don’t acknowledge Timothy’s background:

    “I am reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice

    Just doesn’t fit into the patriarchal paradigm, brother!


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    bc wrote:

    I guess all the hippies coming out of the dope fueled time were looking to be controlled because the number of none Christian cults such as TM, occult, etc were abundant and growing all over the place. A voice of sanity was not easy to find. I’m not excusing it but saying that it was a time filled with opportunists with evil motives and plenty of gullible being taken in.

    Having been there – we were not looking to be controlled. We were looking to repent, turn from the wildness, and be that new creation written about in Scripture.

    So, from rebellious teens and twens, we did a complete 180 degree change. Overnight.

    Drugs, sex, alcohol, self-centeredness, and a whole lotta of internal rebellion against any and all.

    We were ripe for the plucking, for manipulative leadership who wanted to expand on what God had already done within us, using our grief for our former way of life as a prod to push us into obeying anything and everything they could come up with.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    oh, crimany, yes, heard that one, too. I swear Christianity causes people to turn off their intelligence (intellectual, emotional, social), and regresses them to 4 years old.

    Fake Christianity, so-called Christianity does that and does it well. The real thing, the actual God, why would He give you a brain and then compel you to shut it down? He would not and does not.


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    YES! The true marks of healthy churches and believers are shown in the fruit of the SPIRIT led saints… Love, joy, peace! Praise God for freedom in Christ to love!! @ An Attorney:


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    The lack of Love as one of the 9 Marks … That says it all

    Gram3 wrote:

    May wrote:

    The ONE MARK of a true Christian is LOVE

    Love is not one of the nine marks, however. Isn’t that interesting.

    Preach it.

    Real Jesus Love is sometimes very hard and sometimes tedious and boring and costly. Power is much more fun and appealing. The trick is to spell power L-O-V-E. As in “loving you well.” A variation on that theme is “push her under our care.”

    Yes, I am bitter on behalf of Karen Hinckley because she embodies the truth behind the lies being peddled. I guess that makes me also guilty of taking up an offense. Which are both, as we now know, much graver sins than covering up child sexual abuse.


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    As my goddaughter explained to me WRT her “charismatic covenant community”: Her husband had a “head” who discipled him; and that head had a head, and that head had a head, and so on, all the way up to the Elders, who were self-appointed for life. This was directly based on the Sword of the Lord, a Protestant shepherding cult that had taken the Catholic charismatic renewal under its wing (at least the “living-in-community” wing of the renewal; the parish-based prayer groups never got suckered in as much).

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I think it was Brad the futurist guy that recommended a book to me titled “The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Eccliesiolgy” by S. David Moore.

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    “The movement taught that submission to a shepherd provided spiritual “covering” by being in a right relationship to God’s delegated authority in the church. The shepherd assumed responsibility for the well-being of his sheep.” (page 74)

    “Prince illustrated the depth of these covenant commitments by comparing them to the marriage covenant…
    Practically, covenant meant “abandoning the option to quit” in relationships.” (page 77)

    “The movement stressed the need for male leadership, with strong fathers and husbands in the home. It was understood that women were not to have governmental leadership in the church, and emphasis was placed on the very different roles in the Scriptures for men and women. Women had assumed roles that properly belonged to men. They were also concerned over the weak, effeminate stereotypes often ascribed to ministers and pastors.” (page 79)

    Mumford disciple Dick Key and other men signed written covenants to be committed to their pastor and fellow leaders. Scott Ross, who had only been with the movement a month, was one of the few men who did not make a commitment. He stood and said he needed to talk to his wife before he could take such a major step. Mumfrod recalled, “It was like putting a wet blanket on the whole thing.” (page 90)

    “DuPlessis commented that “Mumford has become known as the Pope in Ft Lauderdale.” He continued: “I am almost convinced that these brethren are establishing their own kingdom or Church, and that they are definitely anti-other churches.” (page 99)

    “Pat Robertson was the first to raise concerns after the agenda was set. He was forceful in expressing his charges and asserted, “The authority is the Bible not the shepherd; our covering is the blood not man.” Robertson charged the CGM teachers with usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in the live of a believer and demeaning all Christians by calling them “dumb sheep.” Robertson told the group that the Ft Lauderdale leaders taught one thing publicly and another privately. He said the cell group approach was divisive and exclusive.” (page 102)

    Also contributing to this decision to stop the conferences was their emphasis on the role of male leadership. The conferences, especially daytime sessions, were attended mostly by women. They believed this was counterproductive to establishing male leadership in the home, since they were making wives more spiritual than their husbands.” (page 58)

    =================
    From the 9Marks website:

    Who Should Attend a Weekender?

    The Weekender is designed for men who are, or aspire to be, church leaders. This includes pastors, elders, deacons, lay leaders, seminarians, and more.

    “May I Bring My Wife?”

    Men often ask if they can or should bring their wives to the Weekender. We generally discourage it because the schedule is extremely full and the sessions are only open to the registered participants. If wives do come, they are welcome to attend the church’s public meetings (Membership Matters, Core Seminars, Sunday AM and Sunday PM services).


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I guess that makes me also guilty of taking up an offense.

    Dang, where would this world be if people didn’t take up an offense for others? Slaves still around on southern plantations. Women still wouldn’t have the vote. All the other evils of the world would not happen, let alone Jesus taking up my offense on the cross. Yes, I’ll take that a thousand times over being like the son of Adam who asked, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The answer is yes.


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    bea wrote:

    YES! The true marks of healthy churches and believers are shown in the fruit of the SPIRIT led saints… Love, joy, peace!

    YES!! Why must we make up other things? Is His word not enough?


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    What I remembered most during my stay at Capital Hills Baptist Church in 1987 was the loving and caring Madeline Dunmire who was 87 years old at that time.
    MADELINE E. DUNMIRE

    Sunday School Teacher

    Madeline E. Dunmire, 93, a Sunday school teacher for 40 years at Capitol Hill Metropolitan Baptist Church, died of sepsis Nov. 10 at Washington Hospital Center.

    Mrs. Dunmire, who lived in Washington, was born in Davis, N.C. She attended Eastern Carolina Teachers College and taught school in North Carolina before moving to Washington after her marriage in 1918 to Stewart Lee Baker. He died in 1946.

    She was a former chairman of the board of the D.C. Baptist Home for Children. She was a member of Columbia Country Club.

    In 1948, she married Roy F. Dunmire. He died in 1964.

    Survivors include a son, retired Army Col. Stewart L. Baker Jr. of Adelphi; two sisters; two brothers; and three grandchildren.
    She died in 1990 but it was her kind that were faithful and serving at the church. The older, wiser, unpretentious. Mrs. Dunmire will always have a special place in my heart.


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    Beautiful, prodinov. That’s who I want to be like when I am her age.


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    @ prodinov:

    Thanks for sharing this. Loved that she was from North Carolina.


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    Deb wrote:

    I wonder what is meant by ‘an observant neighbor’?

    My first thought was – Gladys Kravitz. 😉

    http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/bewitched/images/e/ee/Gladys_Kravitz.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090817040052

    But, looking over the vaguery, this is how I read it:

    “an observant neighbor began quietly listening in from the back of the room,”

    This would be another religious leader who lives/works in the area, but who was not a member of Dever’s church. They already knew each other.

    ” often attending the same sessions more than once.”

    This neighbor, who is not a member, attended the sessions for new member repeatedly.

    ” Encouraged, he made three very generous donations over the next three years that helped fund the nascent work of the Center for Church Reform (CCR)”

    This religious leader/observant neighbor had not been able to establish the level of rule he wanted over his congregation, and listening to these 2 laying out the new law for their new members, he was encouraged that this path would assist him in eventually establishing the sort of rule over his own kingdom that he desired.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    Yes – Another verse, same as the first.

    I’ve watched this pattern repeatedly.

    Frankly, it is what mankind does. From the earliest years of Christianity.

    What Jesus laid a foundation for, was something unknown in this world.

    Something that would be unique, appealing. A light in a world of darkness.

    And what mankind did and does, is take His beautiful foundation and start building on it with the world’s wood, hay, and stubble.

    And mankind always builds using the same worldly architectural plan.

    So, that beautiful foundation laid by Jesus, the apostles and the prophets, keeps getting buried beneath the cr#p (ed.) that men keep piling on it.


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    Deb wrote:

    I wonder what is meant by ‘an observant neighbor’? That wording sounds odd to me.

    Almost like it is intended to obscure the identity of the “neighbor” while at the same time teasing with a descriptor like “neighbor.” Why not just say “a man” or something? Of course, “neighbor” certainly fits Mahaney who might have been invited by Dever or someone else (like one of Dever’s or Mahaney’s many young disciples) to come and see what was going on at CHBC. What is puzzling is what the crossover appeal might be.

    Speculation is fun. I can read into “neighbor” just about as well as they can read into Genesis 1-2 and 1 Timothy 2. And all their other clobber verses.


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    @ prodinov:
    Wow. Thank you so much.


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    Wow. Just wow. Can’t wait for you to blog more about this very informative book and its correlation to current neo-Calvinism, Todd.

    @ Todd Wilhelm:


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    lowlandseer wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    By the way, I saw on the internet that when Mark Dever came to Capitol Hill Baptist Church he kicked out some 256 church members who didn’t want to do things his way. Can this be substantiated?
    Todd W., if you read this do you know anything about that?
    You will find the answer here http://sites.silaspartners.com/cc/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID598016_CIID1639966,00.html

    I read that document, followed the link. Dever said: “So, after we revised that covenant, then we were in the position to begin asking people to either sign it, well, forget the either, just to sign it in order to be a member of the church.”

    Dever then: “…if we were actually going to use the covenant as an active document it had to be biblical.”

    The sad truth is, this man was willing to construct a document and make it an absolute necessity to remain a member of the church, even if one had been a member there and had donated thousands of hard-earned dollars to support that church long before Mark Dever was a sucking infant. Mark Dever then cites the pretense of saying that the document by which the unwanted were purged had to be biblical–this is spite of the glaringly obvious fact that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever biblical about membership covenants, and in fact, there are strong statements against them (i.e., Jesus’ admonition to swear by nothing either in heaven or on earth).

    I am left with the conclusion that Mr. Dever cares absolutely nothing about anything biblical unless it can be used cynically to support the agenda of Mr. Dever.


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    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.


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    Stunned wrote:

    YES!! Why must we make up other things? Is His word not enough?

    It is never enough for a superapostle, a pharisee, a servant of hell, because if one merely uses the Word of God and it alone, it never advances their agenda. They must always add, and invariably what they add will become an idol to them of far greater importance than either the Word of God or God Himself.


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    @ Gram3:

    Another reason the generous neighbor may have been Mahaney/CLC/SGM is that when 9Marks held its first conference at SEBTS back in 2010, C.J. was one of the speakers. He spoke on Expository Faithfulness.

    In one of his messages (I'll try to track it down),  Mahaney shared that he once sat through a members meeting at CHBC. Why didn't he get up and leave as the meeting convened? This goes to show that Mahaney felt comfortable participating at CHBC. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he sat in on the New Members class.


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    @ anon:
    Hi anon, would you, please, tell us more about what you know about this situation? Or rather, would it be OK if you told us how you knew it was an unbelieving neighbor? Thank you!


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    Law Prof wrote:

    if one merely uses the Word of God and it alone, it never advances their agenda. They must always add, and invariably what they add will become an idol to them of far greater importance than either the Word of God or God Himself.

    Amen! “Their” agenda is the key word. The current reformed movement is “their” version of the Word, which is Calvin’s word with a 21st century slant to it. The teachings and traditions of men seldom connect with the heart of God. When flesh rules, the Spirit departs.


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    anon wrote:

    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.

    That is interesting information. What was CHBC doing in the surrounding area that was so remarkable that it needed to be replicated? I have never been to CHBC and am not familiar with the Capitol Hill neighborhood.


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    @ Stunned:

    I’ve heard it several times from Mark and Matt Schmucker, the original executive director of the ministry. I don’t know if it’s somewhere on the web.


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    Deb wrote:

    In one of his messages (I'll try to track it down),  Mahaney shared that he once sat through a members meeting at CHBC.

    That seems irregular and not customary at 9Marks churches. But exceptionally exceptional people obviously warrant exceptions from what is customary for everyone else.


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    anon wrote:

    @ Stunned:

    I’ve heard it several times from Mark and Matt Schmucker, the original executive director of the ministry. I don’t know if it’s somewhere on the web.

    Do you know the nature of the work that the neighbor found so commendable? Since you know Mark and Matt, do you know why Mahaney was granted sanctuary at CHBC?


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    @ anon:

    Thank you for this interesting information.


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    @ Gram3:

    I simply wanted to answer the main question of this article and debunk its insinuation. All the rest is outside my purview, and it’s likely nothing I say would sway popular opinion.

    Blessings.


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    anon wrote:

    @ Stunned:

    I’ve heard it several times from Mark and Matt Schmucker, the original executive director of the ministry. I don’t know if it’s somewhere on the web.

    Do you happen to know how Mahaney and Dever became such fast friends despite their obvious theological differences? This is a mystery to many.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Do you happen to know how Mahaney and Dever became such fast friends despite their obvious theological differences? This is a mystery to many.

    How did Pontius Pilate and Herod Antipas become such fast friends?


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    @ anon:
    OK, but why not just say what CHBC was doing that an unbeliever wanted to replicate elsewhere?


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    BL wrote:

    So, from rebellious teens and twens, we did a complete 180 degree change. Overnight.

    A 180 only on the surface, without any change to the underlying attitudes or intensity.
    Communism begets Objectivism.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Duncan is/was a bridge between the generations in the PCA, so he brought that to the table.

    They needed a bonafide Presbyterian. There is a lot of connecting dots. Ligon’s brother, James, worked for Ligonier and was very involved with that financial scandal when it broke.


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    @ lowlandseer:

    Thanks for this.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    That is interesting information. What was CHBC doing in the surrounding area that was so remarkable that it needed to be replicated? I have never been to CHBC and am not familiar with the Capitol Hill neighborhood.

    Does/Did the mission of the “Center for Church Reform” – to which this neighbor so generously gave to, have anything to do with ‘doing things’ in the surrounding area? Some sort of neighborhood ministry?

    Quoting anon: “who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.”

    Anon, I am not questioning you, I don’t doubt that the above was asserted by those in the know.

    But, something doesn’t line up. The neighbor had seen what CHBC had been doing in the neighborhood, and he then shows up to multiple new member sessions (different times, different days, different weeks?). I have been in a session or two for new members over the decades, ‘doing stuff in the neighborhood’ was never the topic under discussion.

    And if doing things in the neighborhood was what got this unbelieving neighbor to open his wallet, why did his financial gift have nothing to do with ‘stuff in the neighborhood’ he was currently in OR replicating said services; and was instead to an organization focused on church authority & discipline?


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    Max wrote:

    marquis wrote: Has anyone looked at John MacArthur? MacArthur’s connection with the New Calvinist movement seems strange to me. He is so old-guard Calvinist, he doesn’t fit with the YRR crowd and their small band of elite leaders. I guess they put up with each other to make sure reformed theology penetrates mainline denominations as deeply as possible while the window is open.

    I don't understand old school calvinist? Calvinism is calvinism. Also our former pastor came out of john macarthurs GCC, TMS, and TMC. He pastored there for 4 years and macarthur is his mentor. How is it that all of macarthurs seminary grads who are now senior pastors themselves promote the 9 marks and C.J. Mahaney, mark dever, al mohler, bob kauflin including their books and follow these teachings including Mr MacArthur himself? Just a question is all.


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    R2 wrote:

    I want to chase this rabbit trail. Mohler is loyal to his buddies but he has been known to disappear people who were close friends who did something to threaten his image. I suspect there is either a significant revenue stream or legal tie to Mahaney.

    Bingo. But the ones i am familar with worked for him. Mahaney is not going quietly, i presume. I know a few who have worked around Mohler and they still quake to this day thinking about it. But then, they just could not do the sycophant. But they still feared the havoc he could wreck on their careers so they were careful in making the break. Both were a bit older and had secular careers before.

    There were some very stupid things they tried to pull off at sbts in secret as an accredited academic institution that eventually became public so they dropped them like a hot potato. One was academic credit for SGM pastors college. Another was further back in teaming up with, i think Scott Brown, on integrating family centered worship into all their areas of study. It was an incredibly stupid idea that never went anywhere but lots of pew sitter money was spent on it. Oh and I moved they way SBTS laid off “family men” while they spent 150 million beautifying the campus.

    It all makes me wonder what we don’t know. But Mahaney has money flowing now? I think not so the dynamic is even more interesting. I think Mohler is very secure in his power and knows it.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    A few days ago I posted something about Mike Breen having come out of the shepherding movement. I’m not sure if that is true, but he seems to be following a very similar pattern. The details on him, 3DM and The Order of Mission are difficult to pull together, but this site seems to do a pretty good job: http://bobhighlands.faith/3dm-warning/. Mike Breen seems to be gaining traction in Evangelical circles, especially through the missional community movement. I think this is another trend to watch.


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    anon wrote:

    I simply wanted to answer the main question of this article and debunk its insinuation. All the rest is outside my purview, and it’s likely nothing I say would sway popular opinion.

    I’m going to explain why your comment may not be persuasive, though I am quite sure that you will not be able to hear what I am saying due to my gender and age (not male and not young.) But here goes.

    Without further information, the info you provided only raises more questions. What interest does a non-believer have in what a church is doing? What part of 9Marks ministry emphasis would an unbeliever find compelling enough to want to kickstart?

    When you use words like “debunk” and “insinuation” without offering much more than a bare denial, then you have not really increased the overall information which might lead to greater understanding. If you do not understand why people are perplexed by the relationship between Mahaney and Dever and the others **including Mark Dever’s own decision to obliterate his own message by sheltering Mahaney from the elders at CLC (though Mahaney was quick to exercise the power of the keys against pewpeons in SGM)**, then you have a huge blind spot. Please accept my apology for the odd punctuation.

    Respectfully, you have a huge blind spot if you can ignore the real problems discussed here. Not that we do not individually and collectively have problems and blind spots. We do. But we are not claiming to have the power of the keys, and the 9Marks crew is claiming that power while being wildly inconsistent in applying it. It is almost like they are being respecters of persons or something.

    Finally, here’s a style suggestion. “Blessings” does not seem sincere in the context of your comment. It is a common closing among the YRR that I have observed, and it is annoying. Do not take that personally, since I am easily annoyed because Genesis 3:16.


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    @ marquis:

    All of that has been about building a huge Reformed brand and JMac is established. It is about numbers. Perception. That is what the millions and millions designated by Ezell of the SBC to plant Reformed only Acts 29 churches….was all about.

    It seems CJ was willing to be whatever they needed.


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    @ BL:
    Beat me to it while I was attending to a household need. Great minds raise great questions. I meant that with the utmost humility, of course.


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    @ Lydia:

    Randy Stinson headed up the Family Integrated Church effort at SBTS.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Love it. I would say wolves. Confess your fear of wolves! Your bitterness toward wolves!

    Actually, it is healthy to fear wolves. To avoid them and warn others.


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    marquis wrote:

    Calvinism is calvinism

    MacArthur is a dispie Calvinist, and used to be, IIRC, a mere 4-pointer. Those are decidedly small minority positions among the Reformed. I believe the Bible Presbyterians are also somewhat dispie, IIRC. MacArthur took no small amount of grief from the YRR for a message he delivered on that topic. Historic premill is okay. Dispie–even leaky Dispie–is not an option for the Reformed who are Covenantal almost by definition. MacArthur is more fundamentalist than Reformed.


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    Friend wrote:

    The church where I grew up was firmly opposed to thinning the mailing list. That was considered to be a severe form of discipline, and an act of insensitivity toward people who might have held the place close in their hearts, even if they did not show up on Sundays. Keeping their names in the directory, and sending them an occasional newsletter, were forms of outreach if not plain decency.

    This was pretty much how it worked when I was growing up. Even if they moved or officially joined another church they often came back for the “homecoming Sunday” once a year. It was a huge deal. People seemed to genuinely love each other and a special church home back then. At least it seemed that way. Many times it was Seminary students who had gone on to other places but came back to the church they went to during Seminary for homecoming. Makes me smile to think of it now.


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    @ Gram3:
    New Covenant eschatology is unacceptable to both Dispies and Covies, and that is what many of the YRR Baptists are. All that to say that what really matters is the 5 points and Female Subordination. The rest is negotiable or negligible.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    The real thing, the actual God, why would He give you a brain and then compel you to shut it down? He would not and does not.

    Well, this is my big issue which goes right along with free will. If you believe God determined your thinking/behavior, you might just shut down and go along.


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    Stunned wrote:

    Dang, where would this world be if people didn’t take up an offense for others?

    Exactly!!!!


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    @ prodinov:
    I love to hear about such women. Thank you.


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    @ anon:
    Thanks for letting us know that information, anon!

    You added, “…it’s likely nothing I say would sway popular opinion.”

    Oh, to the contrary. I’m a huge fan of truth so knowing that these two gentlemen told you that it was an unbeliever who gave that money is much appreciated. Thank you!


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    @ Deb:
    It sounds like he was actually mentoring, too.


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    @ Law Prof:

    elastigirl wrote: “oh, crimany, yes, heard that one, too. I swear Christianity causes people to turn off their intelligence (intellectual, emotional, social), and regresses them to 4 years old.”

    Law Prof said: “Fake Christianity, so-called Christianity does that and does it well. The real thing, the actual God, why would He give you a brain and then compel you to shut it down? He would not and does not.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    the way I see it, ‘Christianity’ is the name humans have given to the religious systems & traditions they have assembled based on information about Jesus, etc. in the bible.

    i’m all for the actual God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. They’re the bees’ knees. And totally pro-intelligence, pro-woman, pro-man, pro-human, pro-animal, pro-redwood tree, pro-art, pro-Yosemite…..

    The label Christian/Christianity carries too much of a whiff of fermaldehyde. it’s anti-EVERYTHING!


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    My creep meter goes off!! But then, it also goes off WRT “season.” I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s the constant repetition? Why can’t they just talk like normal people?

    Stunned wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    winsome courage

    Super creepy expression. Sounds like they are applauding manipulation. Why doesn’t other people’s creep meters go off over this kind of stuff?


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    marquis wrote:

    I don’t understand old school calvinist? Calvinism is calvinism.

    As I look at the reformed landscape, I see differences between classical Calvinists and this new tribe … mostly in form, rather than substance. The neo-brethren have incorporated a more philosophical intellectual approach to their faith, than the more orthodox old guard (although, as noted on TWW, the New Calvinist superior intellects are not all that). Classical Calvinists are more counter-culture; New Calvinists are sub-culture. The culturally-relevant message of the YRR is more tolerant than what the old guys have preached. The new reformation is built on celebrities; the old boys are anything but that. While the essential tenets are the same, the new thing is giving more wiggle room for sin and rebellion among its members. Additional wiggle room is being provided by the New Calvinists to incorporate Charismatic members; the old guard frowned on such expressions of faith. The New Calvinists are prolific in getting their message out via books, conferences, social media; the old boys have gone quietly about their business. New Calvinists use a more seeker-friendly format to attract members (coffee lounges, cool bands, etc.); the old guard are much more reverent and dignified in their worship style. I always knew who the old Calvinists were in a church – they would tell you what they believed, but were civil about it. The New Calvinists move by stealth and deception – they have successfully lied their way into non-Calvinist churches to attempt to reform it.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Genesis 3:16

    I loved that my childhood church sent the church bulletin every month. Def a great way to keep the unifying love flowing even for those who were far away. Precious.


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    anon wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    I simply wanted to answer the main question of this article and debunk its insinuation. All the rest is outside my purview, and it’s likely nothing I say would sway popular opinion.

    Blessings.

    I don’t understand. Debunking means Mahaney did not give money to the church/ministry of Dever?

    Was it known by members at the time who this anonymous neighbor was or that one existed who gave money?


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    Ken F wrote:

    A few days ago I posted something about Mike Breen having come out of the shepherding movement. I’m not sure if that is true, but he seems to be following a very similar pattern.

    They are flowing from the same stream.

    They share many beliefs – a major one is the “five-fold ministry” ie. apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc, of which, it just so happens, they believe they are the apostles.


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    @ Max:
    The “frozen chosen”back then. A term of endearment. they pretty much left others Alone and were tolerant of our existence. :o)


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    Lydia wrote:

    The “frozen chosen”back then.

    Yep, from “frozen chosen” to “unfrozen chosen.” The beast has been unleashed!


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    Max wrote:

    Additional wiggle room is being provided by the New Calvinists to incorporate Charismatic members; the old guard frowned on such expressions of faith.

    This is another difference between MacArthur and some others. He is adamantly cessationist. Most of the others I’ve encountered are “cautious but open” if not thoroughly charismatic. I think Grudem’s influence explains much of this, having come from The Vineyard.

    I especially like your summation of the cultural differences which really seem to be what defines this group. Aging or old guys who want a legacy and young and ambitious bucks who want their place and who are willing to please the power brokers in exchange for their own place in the sun. Challies, for example, is entirely a creature of New Media. He got enough page views to morph from a web designer to a reformed blogger to a YRR superstar and the one who humbled himself to tell us all how we should think about Mahaney. Or was that Driscoll? They all run together. Oh, and that qualifies him as a pastor and spiritual authority! Kardashian Kristianity. Sad.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I’m going to explain why your comment may not be persuasive, though I am quite sure that you will not be able to hear what I am saying due to my gender and age (not male and not young.) But here goes.
    Without further information, the info you provided only raises more questions. What interest does a non-believer have in what a church is doing? What part of 9Marks ministry emphasis would an unbeliever find compelling enough to want to kickstart?
    When you use words like “debunk” and “insinuation” without offering much more than a bare denial, then you have not really increased the overall information which might lead to greater understanding. If you do not understand why people are perplexed by the relationship between Mahaney and Dever and the others **including Mark Dever’s own decision to obliterate his own message by sheltering Mahaney from the elders at CLC (though Mahaney was quick to exercise the power of the keys against pewpeons in SGM)**, then you have a huge blind spot. Please accept my apology for the odd punctuation.
    Respectfully, you have a huge blind spot if you can ignore the real problems discussed here. Not that we do not individually and collectively have problems and blind spots. We do. But we are not claiming to have the power of the keys, and the 9Marks crew is claiming that power while being wildly inconsistent in applying it. It is almost like they are being respecters of persons or something.
    Finally, here’s a style suggestion. “Blessings” does not seem sincere in the context of your comment. It is a common closing among the YRR that I have observed, and it is annoying. Do not take that personally, since I am easily annoyed because Genesis 3:16.

    *applause*


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    CJ Mahaney, the Machiavelli of the church…


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    anon wrote:

    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.

    Entirely possible. In the end, matters not. This article is not an assertion, but a speculation, and not an entirely fanciful one based on the track record of the YRR crowd.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    elastigirl wrote: “oh, crimany, yes, heard that one, too. I swear Christianity causes people to turn off their intelligence (intellectual, emotional, social), and regresses them to 4 years old.”
    Law Prof said: “Fake Christianity, so-called Christianity does that and does it well. The real thing, the actual God, why would He give you a brain and then compel you to shut it down? He would not and does not.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    the way I see it, ‘Christianity’ is the name humans have given to the religious systems & traditions they have assembled based on information about Jesus, etc. in the bible.
    i’m all for the actual God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. They’re the bees’ knees. And totally pro-intelligence, pro-woman, pro-man, pro-human, pro-animal, pro-redwood tree, pro-art, pro-Yosemite…..
    The label Christian/Christianity carries too much of a whiff of fermaldehyde. it’s anti-EVERYTHING!

    The term was used in the First Century church, so it’s not some modern invention of the evangelical right or the YRR crowd, but like you (apparently), I no longer wish to call myself “Christian”. I worship Jesus, and not always in the manner that one should. It has been my observation and opinion that most who call themselves “Christian” neither know the point or the meaning of the phrase, and that most who have achieved prominent positions in the western church or lust after the same, are not only not Christian, but anti-Christian.


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    @ Gram3:
    And this is where the problem lies. They (the Devers, Mohlers etc) give out vague info that invites speculation based on their patterns of behavior… then claim the speculation is gossip or slander.

    Nothing was debunked. Just the opposite. It only brought more questions. Truth is the goal so why aren’t Christan leaders modeling transparency?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I can’t wait for him to get started so that, with profound gratitude to God for CBMW’s past, we can push this eminent organization forward into an exhilarating new season of ministry to Christ’s church.”

    Ugh. Just ugh.

    They are delusional. Eminent organization? Exhilarating? The overwrought prose screams Owen BHLH whose signature word is any form of “thrill.” Special style points for teaming “exhilarating” with “season.” It appears that a 12 yo girl is the editor for the CBMW crew.

    Reminds me of a Dilbert comic.


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    Although ‘anon’ has informed us that it was someone other than Mahaney who provided the initial funding for 9Marks, we want to make our readers aware that there is concrete evidence on the Capitol Hill Baptist Church website that Mahaney made contributions to CHBC and/or 9Marks.

    Here are two occasions when Mahaney has given money to Dever’s church.

    On March 30, 2003, Mahaney presented Dever with two checks totaling $10,000 (they are presented at the 11 minute mark)

    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/the-transforming-effect-of-divine-perspective/

    And here is Mahaney giving another check on May 4, 2008 (beginning at the 6 minute mark)

    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/adoption/


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    marquis wrote:

    I don’t understand old school calvinist? Calvinism is calvinism.

    John MacArthur presented himself as a dispensationalist while bringing covenant/reformed teachings into the evangelical church through his books and teaching, subtly leading believers away from grace and into “law as a rule of life.” In many ways he was a forerunner of these new guys.


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    With all those heads, it’s starting to sound like a Hydra.

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    As my goddaughter explained to me WRT her “charismatic covenant community”: Her husband had a “head” who discipled him; and that head had a head, and that head had a head, and so on, all the way up to the Elders, who were self-appointed for life. This was directly based on the Sword of the Lord, a Protestant shepherding cult that had taken the Catholic charismatic renewal under its wing (at least the “living-in-community” wing of the renewal; the parish-based prayer groups never got suckered in as much).

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I think it was Brad the futurist guy that recommended a book to me titled “The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Eccliesiolgy” by S. David Moore.

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    “The movement taught that submission to a shepherd provided spiritual “covering” by being in a right relationship to God’s delegated authority in the church. The shepherd assumed responsibility for the well-being of his sheep.” (page 74)

    “Prince illustrated the depth of these covenant commitments by comparing them to the marriage covenant…
    Practically, covenant meant “abandoning the option to quit” in relationships.” (page 77)

    “The movement stressed the need for male leadership, with strong fathers and husbands in the home. It was understood that women were not to have governmental leadership in the church, and emphasis was placed on the very different roles in the Scriptures for men and women. Women had assumed roles that properly belonged to men. They were also concerned over the weak, effeminate stereotypes often ascribed to ministers and pastors.” (page 79)

    Mumford disciple Dick Key and other men signed written covenants to be committed to their pastor and fellow leaders. Scott Ross, who had only been with the movement a month, was one of the few men who did not make a commitment. He stood and said he needed to talk to his wife before he could take such a major step. Mumfrod recalled, “It was like putting a wet blanket on the whole thing.” (page 90)

    “DuPlessis commented that “Mumford has become known as the Pope in Ft Lauderdale.” He continued: “I am almost convinced that these brethren are establishing their own kingdom or Church, and that they are definitely anti-other churches.” (page 99)

    “Pat Robertson was the first to raise concerns after the agenda was set. He was forceful in expressing his charges and asserted, “The authority is the Bible not the shepherd; our covering is the blood not man.” Robertson charged the CGM teachers with usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in the live of a believer and demeaning all Christians by calling them “dumb sheep.” Robertson told the group that the Ft Lauderdale leaders taught one thing publicly and another privately. He said the cell group approach was divisive and exclusive.” (page 102)

    Also contributing to this decision to stop the conferences was their emphasis on the role of male leadership. The conferences, especially daytime sessions, were attended mostly by women. They believed this was counterproductive to establishing male leadership in the home, since they were making wives more spiritual than their husbands.” (page 58)

    =================
    From the 9Marks website:

    Who Should Attend a Weekender?

    The Weekender is designed for men who are, or aspire to be, church leaders. This includes pastors, elders, deacons, lay leaders, seminarians, and more.

    “May I Bring My Wife?”

    Men often ask if they can or should bring their wives to the Weekender. We generally discourage it because the schedule is extremely full and the sessions are only open to the registered participants. If wives do come, they are welcome to attend the church’s public meetings (Membership Matters, Core Seminars, Sunday AM and Sunday PM services).


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    Stunned wrote:

    31 or under

    The Cultural Revolution
    The Khmer Rouge
    etc.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Aging or old guys who want a legacy and young and ambitious bucks who want their place and who are willing to please the power brokers in exchange for their own place in the sun.

    Mao and the Cultural Revolution
    Hitler and the Brown Shirts
    Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    How did Pontius Pilate and Herod Antipas become such fast friends?

    zing!


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    May wrote:

    Love is not one of the nine marks, however. Isn’t that interesting.

    That is very revealing


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    @ Law Prof:

    I know it’s an ancient designation. I just especially hate what it’s come to represent during my years on earth. i’m sure it was worse in past eras.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Nothing was debunked. Just the opposite. It only brought more questions. Truth is the goal so why aren’t Christan leaders modeling transparency?

    There you go again, the sin of questioning


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Finally, here’s a style suggestion. “Blessings” does not seem sincere in the context of your comment. It is a common closing among the YRR that I have observed, and it is annoying.

    Its also popular amongst Wiccans & other modern pagan groups. (Live long enough, & you meet all kinds of people).
    Not saying there’s a direct link, just commenting on how odd that the 2 groups sound alike, dontchaknow….


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    GSD wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    my short stint at a church which unbeknownst to me had a reformed background was constantly referring to ‘men and their wives’.

    I also get red flags when I hear the phrase, “The leaders and their wives.” Because obviously, women can’t lead.

    I read your post and remembered that very recently I came across that same expression (“leaders and wives”), and my reaction was pretty similar to yours.

    Initially I couldn’t remember where I read it, but it didn’t take me long to find it again. It was in the Twitter account of a SG church in the UK, advertising a ‘leaders and wives’ conference at which CJ Mahaney will speak. Here is the twit, in case you’re interested in checking it: https://twitter.com/sovgraceuk/status/728467263322345472


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    @ Bill M:
    Let’s hope more people become guilty of this particular sin. :o)


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    Martos wrote:

    GSD wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    my short stint at a church which unbeknownst to me had a reformed background was constantly referring to ‘men and their wives’.

    I also get red flags when I hear the phrase, “The leaders and their wives.” Because obviously, women can’t lead.

    I read your post and remembered that very recently I came across that same expression (“leaders and wives”), and my reaction was pretty similar to yours.

    Initially I couldn’t remember where I read it, but it didn’t take me long to find it again. It was in the Twitter account of a SG church in the UK, advertising a ‘leaders and wives’ conference at which CJ Mahaney will speak. Here is the twit, in case you’re interested in checking it: https://twitter.com/sovgraceuk/status/728467263322345472

    Mahaney traveling the world on OPM, modeling reprobation to the loyal fans.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Truth is the goal so why aren’t Christan leaders modeling transparency?

    Oh, I think the emperors are modeling transparency. Of a sort.


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    zooey111 wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    Finally, here’s a style suggestion. “Blessings” does not seem sincere in the context of your comment. It is a common closing among the YRR that I have observed, and it is annoying.

    Its also popular amongst Wiccans & other modern pagan groups. (Live long enough, & you meet all kinds of people).
    Not saying there’s a direct link, just commenting on how odd that the 2 groups sound alike, dontchaknow….

    I have solved the puzzle. The anonymous donor was a satanist who wants church to fail!

    Blessings. Heh.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    elastigirl wrote: “oh, crimany, yes, heard that one, too. I swear Christianity causes people to turn off their intelligence (intellectual, emotional, social), and regresses them to 4 years old.”
    Law Prof said: “Fake Christianity, so-called Christianity does that and does it well. The real thing, the actual God, why would He give you a brain and then compel you to shut it down? He would not and does not.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    the way I see it, ‘Christianity’ is the name humans have given to the religious systems & traditions they have assembled based on information about Jesus, etc. in the bible.
    i’m all for the actual God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. They’re the bees’ knees. And totally pro-intelligence, pro-woman, pro-man, pro-human, pro-animal, pro-redwood tree, pro-art, pro-Yosemite…..
    The label Christian/Christianity carries too much of a whiff of fermaldehyde. it’s anti-EVERYTHING!

    The term was used in the First Century church, so it’s not some modern invention of the evangelical right or the YRR crowd, but like you (apparently), I no longer wish to call myself “Christian”. I worship Jesus, and not always in the manner that one should. It has been my observation and opinion that most who call themselves “Christian” neither know the point or the meaning of the phrase, and that most who have achieved prominent positions in the western church or lust after the same, are not only not Christian, but anti-Christian.

    Others may know more about this than me but did the church itself refer to itself as Christian? I thought the first century believers eschewed the word since it appears to be what others used to refer to them?

    I speak under correction.


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    I feel very vindicated for my comment about the ONE MARK of a Christian (and church) is LOVE. And I appreciate the elaboration from other commenters none of the IX Marks is LOVE. My conclusion:

    A IX Marks church is NOT a Christian church, at least not if the teachings of Jesus and the balance of the NT are the standard!

    Of course, an organization calling itself a church, with a pastor that abuses members through loveless discipline and covers up the abuse of a child, is also not a Christian church.

    Love to the Deebs, GBTC, and the commentariat here. May the Spirit be with you.


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    Deb wrote:

    Here are two occasions when Mahaney has given money to Dever’s church.
    On March 30, 2003, Mahaney presented Dever with two checks totaling $10,000 (they are presented at the 11 minute mark)
    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/the-transforming-effect-of-divine-perspective/

    And here is Mahaney giving another check on May 4, 2008 (beginning at the 6 minute mark)
    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/adoption/

    What I don’t get, apart from the fact that we’re supposed to be doing things in secret not in front of everyone from a Christian perspective, is why people didn’t absolutely die from the tackiness of this check giving in public!

    Also, I seriously don’t get why a ‘nonchristian anonymous donor’ would give two hoots about church politics and discipline. If we were talking about money given for a true community project like a soup kitchen or something, that would make sense. But not for 9marx.


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    Lea wrote:

    Also, I seriously don’t get why a ‘nonchristian anonymous donor’ would give two hoots about church politics and discipline. If we were talking about money given for a true community project like a soup kitchen or something, that would make sense. But not for 9marx.

    Spot on!


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    Lea wrote:

    Also, I seriously don’t get why a ‘nonchristian anonymous donor’ would give two hoots about church politics and discipline. If we were talking about money given for a true community project like a soup kitchen or something, that would make sense. But not for 9marx.

    Yeah. I believe 100% that two men told anon this. But, unless someone is willing to share more news, this story doesn’t make sense. There’s something off about it.


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    Stunned wrote:

    Yeah. I believe 100% that two men told anon this. But, unless someone is willing to share more news, this story doesn’t make sense. There’s something off about it.

    Cover story?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Do not take that personally, since I am easily annoyed because Genesis 3:16.

    Gram, all of this quote was beautiful but this part made me literally laugh out loud! That’s probably why I’m easily annoyed too.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Nothing was debunked. Just the opposite. It only brought more questions. Truth is the goal so why aren’t Christan leaders modeling transparency?

    There you go again, the sin of questioning

    “Thinking leads to Questions.
    Questions lead to Doubt.
    Doubt leads to Heresy.
    Heresy must be Dealt With.
    Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
    — Warhammer 40K


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    Deb wrote:

    Here are two occasions when Mahaney has given money to Dever’s church.

    On March 30, 2003, Mahaney presented Dever with two checks totaling $10,000 (they are presented at the 11 minute mark)

    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/the-transforming-effect-of-divine-perspective/

    And here is Mahaney giving another check on May 4, 2008 (beginning at the 6 minute mark)

    http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/sermon/adoption/

    Buying Influence.
    Just like Chelsea Clinton being hired fresh out of college for High Five Figures.


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    anon wrote:

    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.

    Wow! So, he was so impressed with the strong authoritarian bent, the membership requirements, etc., that he couldn’t help but contribute even though he was a nonbeliever? And the money didn’t even go towards the church but towards funding an organization that would go on to fulfill these amorphous ideals within Christendom. And he wasn’t a Christian? Fascinating. The nonChristian world is stunned by the 9 Marks program!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Most of the others I’ve encountered are “cautious but open” if not thoroughly charismatic.

    I look for Driscoll to re-invent himself as a Charismatic Calvinist. He has been hanging out with the Pentecostals during his unrepentant comeback. He will need some new twist to things if he wants to recapture his market share in New Calvinism.


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    @ Stunned:
    I am with you. This story seems off. However, it has done one thing. It has smoked out people to discuss the money situation of some of CJ Mahaney’s BFFs.


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    Martos wrote:

    Initially I couldn’t remember where I read it, but it didn’t take me long to find it again. It was in the Twitter account of a SG church in the UK, advertising a ‘leaders and wives’ conference at which CJ Mahaney will speak.

    Thanks Martos, perfect example, written in stone. Or rather, carved into the trunk of an old tree. It’s integral to their worldview… women have a different (and lesser) role to play, at least in the church. It’s hard not to extrapolate that women aren’t somehow lesser beings.

    I so appreciate how TWW repeatedly proves the opposite, by giving brilliant women a voice.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    It would not surprise me if Dever also had other contacts with politically-minded Christians on Capitol Hill, based on my very tangential relationship to a Congressman and how he functioned with other Christian politicians and their staffers. I think Dever’s ambitions and Mohler’s and Mahaney’s and Duncan’s exceeded their spheres of influence at the time. Mahaney certainly brought in money and filled pews.

    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.

    Mahaney brought in the home school crowd. Mohler wanted to open a school of education at SBTS but the financial crisis of 2008 nixed that. There was even talk of creating / publishing their own curriculum. That could’ve been a good revenue stream for them. Mahaney and Harris could have provided enough of a market to get it going.


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    Deb

    This has to be one of the weirdest anonymous comments we have ever received. Obviously, it is someone who is involved in CHBC or 9 Marks. Here they are.

    1. Expositional Preaching
    2. Biblical Theology
    3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News
    4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion
    5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
    6.Biblical Understanding of Membership
    7. Biblical Church Discipline
    8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth
    9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership

    I had no idea that by promoting such things, we could get the nonChristian world to ante up. Good night! The world is looking for the 9 Marks solution.


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    Deb
    There’s money to be had! Who knew?


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    Max wrote:

    I look for Driscoll to re-invent himself as a Charismatic Calvinist. He has been hanging out with the Pentecostals during his unrepentant comeback. He will need some new twist to things if he wants to recapture his market share in New Calvinism.

    By going Tatted Todd?
    Punching cancer patients in the gut in the Name of Calvin?
    “ANGELS! ANGELS! ANGELS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!”


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    R2 wrote:

    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.

    As in “Buying More Influence”?
    “Congressmen” as in “Magistrates of the New Geneva”?


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    dee wrote:

    1. Expositional Preaching
    2. Biblical Theology
    3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News
    4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion
    5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
    6.Biblical Understanding of Membership
    7. Biblical Church Discipline
    8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth
    9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership

    Do you think they wrote ‘biblical’ enough times??? It’s as if they think by saying something is ‘biblical’ or ‘the gospel’ they expect us all to turn off our brains and accept whatever they say. It does the opposite for me: it makes me wonder what they’re hiding.


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    marquis wrote:

    Has anyone looked at John MacArthur? He shares conference’s , the stage, and has these men speak at his TMAI and promote their books

    Marquis, this is off-topic but it’s a thought that has been forming in my mind for a while and I just have to make it public: Considering that “Sola Scriptura” is an undisputable “doctrine of grace” touted by this crowd (TGC, T4G, YRR, CBMW, IXMarks), how is it that this group generates hundreds to thousands of books, essays, teachings and sermons every year, all because a god who desires to be known and understood requires them to be his interpreters and mouthpieces?


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    dee wrote:

    Deb

    This has to be one of the weirdest anonymous comments we have ever received. Obviously, it is someone who is involved in CHBC or 9 Marks. Here they are.

    1. Expositional Preaching
    2. Biblical Theology
    3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News
    4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion
    5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
    6.Biblical Understanding of Membership
    7. Biblical Church Discipline
    8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth
    9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership

    I had no idea that by promoting such things, we could get the nonChristian world to ante up. Good night! The world is looking for the 9 Marks solution.

    That sounds like what you hear all the time in my evangelical neck of the woods. The damage they have done to the beauty of scripture is massive. People tend to become Stepfords or throw the Book out. It is a downright crying shame.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    As in “Buying More Influence”?
    “Congressmen” as in “Magistrates of the New Geneva”?

    I would need to see more evidence before I’d think there was anything amiss going on there. Some Congressmen stay on Capitol Hill while Congress is in session. They were probably members of a church back in their district but attended CHBC for convenience of walking to church. I am not sure what those Congressmen could really offer CHBC other than some status. They’ve never made a big deal about it.


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    @ anon:
    This doesn’t ring true. And I’m not saying this because others here have questioned it. It just stands out as an attempt to turn attention away from the probability that Mahaney donated the money used to kick-start 9Marks.

    Furthermore,this assertion lacks credibility. Anon claims to know Mark Dever and Matt Schmucker. I’m guessing this person is an imposter, and here just to cause trouble. I doubt they know anything, probably read here often, and for reasons of their own decided to throw this comment in to the mix for kicks. I’d suggest their comment be completely ignored unless they:

    1. Identify who they are so their relationship with Dever and Schmucker can be verified.

    2. Provide more detail about this large donation from a nonbeliever (it would not have been a member of the church) given to advance Mark Dever’s Christian ministry. It simply doesn’t make good enough sense that someone would do this when they have nothing themselves to gain from it.

    I’ve learned from my own experience that there are people out there who are interested in the story of Mahaney/CLC/Child Sexual Abuse, who seek to involve themselves with the story even though they, themselves, were never personally affected (having never been involved in an SGM church) or victimized themselves in any way (were never sexually abused), yet identity themselves as Advocates. I know of one person in particular who has done this who is mentally disturbed and most likely suffers from a Multiple Personality Disorder.

    Make no mistake, these stories involving CJ Mahaney and the damage he has caused in the name of Jesus Christ and the Gospel, are true, and the victims are real. The activities he has been involved with in the past – the lying, deceit, blackmail, cover-ups, his false identity as an real Christian – all have their origin in The Pit.

    The work many of exposing this man and his ongoing ‘ministry’ is something driven by the Holy Spirit. It’s no small matter, and those of us who have joined our voices together in chorus against CJ Mahaney are making a difference. It’s only a matter if time before his mouth is stopped. I know God is against those who do evil.

    Just as we need to watch and be on guard regarding individuals like Mahaney, who pretend to be a child of God but by lies and deception cause great harm and injury to God’s children and the cause of Christ, so, too, we need to guard against people like “anon” who, in my opinion, inject themselves into this story for sick and twisted reasons of their own. These people are out there. And like Mahaney, who has no business teaching anyone anything about the Bible to anyone, there are people out there who have no business being a part of this story – not because it’s wrong to care about victims of child sexual abuse, that’s not what I mean – but because some identify themselves as Advocates who only pretend to be to feed a need in themselves to be seen as someone good, who is involved in doing good, but are only “good” at fooling and deceiving people.

    It doesn’t surprise me that people like this would be attracted to this whole situation, since at its basis is the account of a man who, throughout the years has done just this. A man who is a pathological liar. A man who masquerades himself among us, and ends up accusing his detractors of being motivated by sin and the devil. A man who seeks to convince all who are bewitched by him to believe he’s innocent, deserves to be shielded from attack, and has told the truth.

    I am convinced CJ Mahaney has manipulated the truth that has come out about him, and has invented an alternative reality that those who believe in him, his “trusted friends,” have accepted without doubt, who have turned a deaf ear to any criticism of him because they have turned aside to a lie in which they’re willing to think that those who are telling the truth are the liars, all of whom are motivated by Satan.

    It’s a serious sin to reject the Holy Spirit, and to attribute His efforts to Satan. That’s how seriously sinful this whole situation is, because it involves a man who is telling people that those who are speaking the truth (as inspired and motivated to do so by the Spirit) are actually motivated by evil. The unforgivable sin is exactly this: to attribute the work of the Spirit to Satan


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    Janet wrote:

    Considering that “Sola Scriptura” is an undisputable “doctrine of grace” touted by this crowd (TGC, T4G, YRR, CBMW, IXMarks), how is it that this group generates hundreds to thousands of books, essays, teachings and sermons every year,

    A-MEN! Didn’t they learn from Martin Luther who, at the end of his life, supposedly said that he wished every book he ever wrote would be burned and people only read the bible?


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    Janet wrote:

    Marquis, this is off-topic but it’s a thought that has been forming in my mind for a while and I just have to make it public: Considering that “Sola Scriptura” is an undisputable “doctrine of grace” touted by this crowd (TGC, T4G, YRR, CBMW, IXMarks), how is it that this group generates hundreds to thousands of books, essays, teachings and sermons every year, all because a god who desires to be known and understood requires them to be his interpreters and mouthpieces?

    Very enlightening to stop and realize this, isn’t it?

    Maybe it has something to do with filling this need, making the most of the opportunity this situation gives them:

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


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    anon wrote:

    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.

    Interesting.

    What were “the things” CHBC “was doing” and where exactly did this person want to see it “replicated”?

    No offense but this sort of has the feel of urban legend to it.


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    siteseer wrote:

    No offense but this sort of has the feel of urban legend to it.

    If the young, restless and reformed will lie their way into pulpits by deceiving search committees about their theological persuasion, it’s not beyond them to construct urban legends to advance their cause and protect their celebrity leaders.


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    Lea wrote:

    I have solved the puzzle. The anonymous donor was a satanist who wants church to fail!
    Blessings. Heh.

    Actually, I think the donor was a “satinist” or possibly a “stanist”, but you have, indeed, discovered the (as they say) “nub of my gist”. (Or “jest”; but I digress). 😉


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    Lea wrote:

    dee wrote: 1. Expositional Preaching 2. Biblical Theology 3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News 4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion 5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism 6.Biblical Understanding of Membership 7. Biblical Church Discipline 8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth 9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership Do you think they wrote ‘biblical’ enough times??? .

    Starting to hear "bibbity-bobbity-boo" myself. But that's me.


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    dee wrote:

    Wow! So, he was so impressed with the strong authoritarian bent, the membership requirements, etc., that he couldn’t help but contribute even though he was a nonbeliever?

    This is a JOKE:

    Maybe it was one of the current male unmentionables 😉


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    @ dee:
    Mark has a lot of “Biblical Understanding” going on in his marks! The Biblical understanding” of Calvinists has been debated for 500 years. Most of Christendom have left the Calvinist determinist God behind for a more accurate understanding of the Word of God and the Christ who died for ALL people. This revival of “New” Calvinism will also dwindle when its adherents realize there is more law than life in it.


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    Max wrote:

    siteseer wrote:
    No offense but this sort of has the feel of urban legend to it.

    If the young, restless and reformed will lie their way into pulpits by deceiving search committees about their theological persuasion, it’s not beyond them to construct urban legends to advance their cause and protect their celebrity leaders.

    The entire reason they changed the name to ‘9Marx’ instead of “Center for Church Reform” was because they wanted to lie about the fact that they were trying to change your church. They openly state this in an interview!

    Maybe this is Mark10: Biblical Lying.


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    Max wrote:

    Mark has a lot of “Biblical Understanding” going on in his marks!

    And it only now occurs to me (perhaps because I’ve been seeing it as ‘9marx’, that these ‘Mark’s are all named by Mark. He named the entire program after himself!


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    Janet wrote:

    Marquis, this is off-topic but it’s a thought that has been forming in my mind for a while and I just have to make it public: Considering that “Sola Scriptura” is an undisputable “doctrine of grace” touted by this crowd (TGC, T4G, YRR, CBMW, IXMarks), how is it that this group generates hundreds to thousands of books, essays, teachings and sermons every year, all because a god who desires to be known and understood requires them to be his interpreters and mouthpieces?

    Someone else may have addressed your question/comment, but I would like to either echo their response or contribute my own: in my opinion, it has very little to do with helping others understand God’s word, which is what the role of a teacher was designed to do. Perhaps the individual’s first book is so nobly written, but I would doubt any subsequent ones are. I believe that all the books serve a two-fold purpose(in no specific ranking): 1. perpetuate the industry that supplies the books and 2. put money in the pocket of the writer.

    I have long thought that pastors or otherwise gainfully employed “full time Christians” who write books expounding on some Biblical theme, truth or chapter (i.e., in-depth study) should be willing to provide it to anyone who asks at no, or extremely low, cost, especially to those who live in areas of the world where such resources are not readily available. I would make an exception for those who live solely by their books and do not seek to use them to open doors to speaking engagements. If that is the case, then make a living off the speaking engagements and let the books be free, or nearly so.


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    R2 wrote:

    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.

    Thank you for the confirmation of what only seemed reasonable. I have no first-hand knowledge of CHBC, though I’ve definitely experienced the influence that the esteemed but non-believing neighbor deemed worthy of investment.


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    R2 wrote:

    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.

    Yeah, and Bill Clinton sang in the choir at First Baptist Church, Hope AR. Not everything that goes to church is the Church – you know them by their fruit.


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    dee wrote:

    1. Expositional Preaching
    2. Biblical Theology
    3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News
    4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion
    5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
    6.Biblical Understanding of Membership
    7. Biblical Church Discipline
    8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth
    9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership

    Geez Louweez, the word “Biblical” has become so bandied, so tossed about, so over used, it’s become virtually meaningless.
    As elastigirl would say:
    “biblical schmiblical”


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    R2 wrote:

    I would need to see more evidence before I’d think there was anything amiss going on there.

    Yes, I was just throwing out ideas of how Mahaney and Dever might have crossed paths. Since there are so many Congressional staffers who are young, it seems plausible that some from Mahaney’s camp might have hung out with some from Dever’s camp. As I said, this speculation is based solely on very indirect contact with *one* Congressman and his supporters. I did not have in mind that either Mahaney or Dever sought favors or funding from government. But I am still puzzled by how such a seemingly odd pair got together and why. It makes sense that Dever might have introduced Mahaney to the others.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Geez Louweez, the word “Biblical” has become so bandied, so tossed about, so over used, it’s become virtually meaningless.
    As elastigirl would say:
    “biblical schmiblical”

    It is long past the season when it was even remotely winsome. Schminsome.


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    Max wrote:

    Yeah, and Bill Clinton sang in the choir at First Baptist Church, Hope AR. Not everything that goes to church is the Church – you know them by their fruit.

    Another example is our friend Marky Mark.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    there are people out there who have no business being a part of this story – not because it’s wrong to care about victims of child sexual abuse, that’s not what I mean – but because some identify themselves as Advocates who only pretend to be to feed a need in themselves to be seen as someone good, who is involved in doing good, but are only “good” at fooling and deceiving people.

    I think I may not understand this part. There are people like me who find this whole thing a shameful blot on Christ’s church and, worse, it is an ongoing blot with no end in sight. IIRC I first came to TWW because of Mahaney (or possibly Driscoll) because all things Mahaney had invaded my church space. Which was also about the time Driscoll did. In both cases I was utterly appalled both at their behavior and at the inexplicable behavior of “leaders” in denying the bad behavior and then attacking those who were pointing it out. In other words, the DARVO treatment.

    I appreciate the information and perspectives that insiders like you have brought to these discussions. Most of the pewpeons do not know what to think, so they follow their leaders whom they trust. Some of the local “leaders” I know who have resumed promotion of Mahaney are doing so out of personal loyalty either to Mahaney or to one of the other Usual Suspects. I think that they are willfully blind at this point and probably well before this point.


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    dee wrote:

    anon wrote:
    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.
    Wow! So, he was so impressed with the strong authoritarian bent, the membership requirements, etc., that he couldn’t help but contribute even though he was a nonbeliever? And the money didn’t even go towards the church but towards funding an organization that would go on to fulfill these amorphous ideals within Christendom. And he wasn’t a Christian? Fascinating. The nonChristian world is stunned by the 9 Marks program!

    If this is true, then could there have been some under the table profit sharing agreement? Church for profit, surely not! *snark*


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    zooey111 wrote:

    Starting to hear “bibbity-bobbity-boo” myself.

    LOL! Now that song will be stuck in my head.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    dee wrote:
    1. Expositional Preaching
    2. Biblical Theology
    3. Biblical Understanding of the Good News
    4. Biblical Understanding of Conversion
    5.Biblical Understanding of Evangelism
    6.Biblical Understanding of Membership
    7. Biblical Church Discipline
    8.Promotion of Church Discipleship And Growth
    9.Biblical Understanding of Leadership
    Geez Louweez, the word “Biblical” has become so bandied, so tossed about, so over used, it’s become virtually meaningless.
    As elastigirl would say:
    “biblical schmiblical”

    Maybe TWW should change its title to The Wartburg Watch, a Biblical Watchblog.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    By going Tatted Todd?
    Punching cancer patients in the gut in the Name of Calvin?
    “ANGELS! ANGELS! ANGELS! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!”

    That’s APOSTLE Tatted Todd to such as you & me!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEwsG4lsXq4

    Commissioning Lead Apostle Peter Wagner and various other Apostolic Leaders done said so and made it so!

    .
    You would think that APOSTLE Tatted Todd’s complete public meltdown just a few days after his public Great Apostolic Commissioning with proclamations of the super powers soon to come to Tatted Todd by C. Peter & the other Apostolic Nutjobs would have finally managed to blow up the Dominion Kingdom they’ve been working so hard to build in the eyes of their adoring followers.

    .
    But no, the deceived peeps must have their clouds o’ glitter gold-dust glory, head-shaking prophetesses, & fire tunnels – it appears that no amount of whack-a-doodle is going to stop the spiritual crazy train these guys are riding.


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    @ dee:

    What has always bothered me about the 9 different marks of a “healthy church” according to Mark Dever, and the reason why I recommended that the leadership of the church where I was one of the elders not use the book (though they did anyway), is because he fails to include worship and prayer among the signs of health. I know he pays lip service to them in the introduction, but I am of the opinion that prayer (especially) is the highest mark of a healthy church.

    I have found that most 9M churches don’t pray beyond a superficial level, and it shows.


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    Burwell wrote:

    Perhaps the individual’s first book is so nobly written, but I would doubt any subsequent ones are. I believe that all the books serve a two-fold purpose(in no specific ranking): 1. perpetuate the industry that supplies the books and 2. put money in the pocket of the writer.

    There was a time that it was rare for any pastor to write a book or books. Now among the YRR crowd/NeoCals they all seem to be writing books (even pastors at small churches, even if they have to self-publish), even if it’s badly written and researched (no wonder so many of them are being caught plagiarizing as they had nothing original to say in the first place).

    They all seem to want attention, and money.


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    Martos wrote:

    Here is the twit, in case you’re interested in checking it:

    I checked the twit (niiiice…) and found them flacking this:

    Continuationist Pneumatology is an important value for Sovereign Grace Churches

    I won’t bother looking it up. I assume it means we should remind ourselves to breathe during endless messages and praise songs.


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    Friend wrote:

    Continuationist Pneumatology is an important value for Sovereign Grace Churches

    Sounds just like the way Jesus spoke.

    blech


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    Janet wrote:

    , how is it that this group generates hundreds to thousands of books, essays, teachings and sermons every year, all because a god who desires to be known and understood requires them to be his interpreters and mouthpieces?

    Of course, God doesn’t require them to be His interpreters & mouthpieces.

    But, they want you to believe that without them and their ‘stuff’ you’re going to miss out on what God is doing.

    Plus, if they actually taught that you should mature beyond gospel milk to eventually go beyond them and on directly to God (ie. John the Baptist “He must increase and I must decrease) – then you would eventually stop buying their stuff and coming to their conferences and THEN WHERE WOULD THEY BE?

    .
    “…even as there shall be false teachers among you, And through covetousness (greed) shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: ”

    The “make merchandise” is translated from “emporeuomai”.

    Defined as: ” I travel as a merchant, engage in trade; I traffic in, make gain or business of.”

    .
    Conferences, seminars, memberships, books, videos, study materials, magazine articles, recommendations of other’s same products, para-organizations, tithe-tithe-tithe, gotta keep coming up with a different package for the same old concept, music videos, teaching videos, and on and on and on.

    .
    Yep, sounds like they are engaged in trade, traffic, business and gain from those who call themselves Christians…


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    Patriciamc wrote:

    Maybe TWW should change its title to The Wartburg Watch, a Biblical Watchblog.

    I like that!


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    @ Gram3:
    Gram3 I have no question whatsoever that you are involved in the discussion here in good faith. I believe when a person loves Jesus Christ as you do, and cares about the Gospel and the power that it has to save and set people free from the bondage of Satan, that when a wolf is discovered, there arises within your heart an adversion to the damage they’re causing to the cause of Christ and to the Gospel we all love. I think that is a natural response to these problems we read about here, and the solution is the truth.

    Anyone can report on a story, no? But what’s the solution? Is there any answer? Yes! We know there’s an answer, and all of these events taking place can be understood when interpreted through the lens of Scripture.

    This is a pretty significant story we’re discussing here, with large reaching ramifications. It’s drawn the attention of people inside and outside the church. And with that we will find people attaching themselves to the story for various different reasons, and there will be those who become involved for the wrong reasons. Some may seek, for example, to become the hero of the story, or align themselves with what’s going on for deceptive reasons – reasons aside from the one you have, that is motivated by your love and concern for Christ and the Gospel.

    In the end, the problem we’re faced with is a problem that needs to be dealt with by those within the Church. This is not a secular concern although the world is affected. The authority to deal with this should be in the hands of those who know how to accurately handle and apply God’s word in response to the problem, in order to pronounce judgment on this. There are times when God uses people outside the church to bring correction to a problem such as this, but the Truth is something that should be proclaimed and declared by those God has entrusted it to.

    My opinion is that Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and Ligon Duncan have been duped by Mahaney. They have believed him and share in his sin. I believe all of them are attached to each other by virtue of pride, and it’s pride that prevents Duncan, Dever or Mohler from ever admitting that they’ve been duped by Mahaney. After all, these men have established themselves as LEADERS, and they expect others to follow them because they’re speaking the truth, or at least they believe in what they’re doing enough to feel confident that they’re not misleading anyone.

    But what would happen to their leadership, their integrity, their movement, if it were discovered that they, themselves, had allowed someone to come in among them that they failed to discern was a liar and a deceiver? How could anyone trust their leadership?

    They couldn’t. People would lose their confidence in following them, just as anyone would if it were discovered, for example, that someone compromised our national security by allowing a mole to operate unsuspected among our top government officials, someone who didn’t love this country but was selling classified information just to make money. That kind of thing.

    Mohler, Duncan and Dever have too much to lose if they were to question Mahaney, or reveal the extent to which, for example, they received money from him that was donated by SGM members with the understanding that it would be used for SGM purposes. I mean, essentially they’re all guilty, as far as I’m concerned, with taking money from Mahaney to build something that today stands as a means of hurting the people of SGM that supplied that money that helped fund T4G and 9Marks – organizations that have basically, along with Mahaney, stabbed CLC/SGM in the back. Dever’s 9Marks and his church took the Mahaney’s in when they fled CLC. That was a stab in the back. Mohler introduced Mahaney at T4G16 by dismissing the voices of all of us speaking out against him on the Internet. That was a stab in the back.


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    anon wrote:

    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.

    Why would a non-Christian have any desire to replicate things that a “church” is doing?


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    Burwell wrote:

    I am of the opinion that prayer (especially) is the highest mark of a healthy church.

    Amen. Prayer – real prayer – is the most important sign of church health! No prayer, no power. No prayer, no presence of God. The New Calvinist tribe are by and large not a praying bunch. Why ask God to do something if He has already preordained what He is going to do? Why pray for lost souls, when God has already predestined them to be saved or damned? Why pray for sick folks, when God wants them to suffer? Why humble yourself to pray and repent, if you have been elected regardless? Prayerlessness is not the Biblical pattern. The Calvinist God is not the God of Scripture.


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    siteseer wrote:

    No offense but this sort of has the feel of urban legend to it.

    I agree, but I can also imagine some of the leaders wooing, say, a wealthy guy who was alarmed about the decline of society, and willing to give money but not to show up on Sundays.

    I do like the mystical sound of the “three very generous donations over the next three years” mentioned elsewhere in the saga, or edda, or odyssey, or Ring Cycle, or whatever we’re dealing with here.


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    Guys here is what I have heard and I live in the DC area. Housing is expensive, its difficult to comprehend unless you live here. Apartments in Fairfax, Springfield and Alexandria go for $1200 to $1600.00 a month. The more you move into DC the more it rises. The closer you live to the Metro (subway) the more expensive it is. On Capitol Hill the rent is obscene. I think you can get into the $2500.00 per month.

    I have heard that there are a lot of people at CHBC that come from the suburbs. Plus there is a community of CHBC that is near Cheverly, Glenardon, etc.. (the name of the town is escaping me.) But there are a number of people who come from the suburbs. On Capitol Hill there is a house that has a lot of young guys stay in for work, congressional internship, etc.. It is called the Jonathan House, and its my understanding that there have always been a few guys from CHBC who stay there. I have known two people who have lived there and visited it once when I was involved in NCC.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    My opinion is that Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and Ligon Duncan have been duped by Mahaney. They have believed him and share in his sin. I believe all of them are attached to each other by virtue of pride, and it’s pride that prevents Duncan, Dever or Mohler from ever admitting that they’ve been duped by Mahaney

    Mohler, Dever, Duncan have been on a dysfunctional authoritarian trajectory for decades, wanting to take over American churches with their views (by first taking over seminaries, indoctrinating seminarians, and then eventually church take-overs). They aren’t as innocent, naïve, and deceived as you think. They don’t care. They’ve relegated women to second class status and justified it. And children are relegated to third class status as are sex crimes in the church. They aren’t grieved by these things. They joke about them at the big conferences they attend with their fan boys. They don’t care!


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    @ Dave (Eagle):
    Have you read Jeff Sharket’s, ‘C Street’?


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    I have heard that there are a lot of people at CHBC that come from the suburbs.

    Well, they’d best be young. Remember, the original members were purged because they had the gall to live in the suburbs, and to be old. I guess they were guilty of BWO (Believing While Old).


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    @ Lydia:
    Oops. Sharlet.


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    Velour wrote:

    Mohler, Dever, Duncan have been on a dysfunctional authoritarian trajectory for decades,

    Oh yes!. At least I know Mohler has, for sure. One of his first dirty acts as SBTS Prez at 34 was to fire a 60 something year old man 8 mos from his retirement because he dared to correct a chapel speaker using FACTS in a professional letter. He was some sort of library archivist who would know such facts. The chapel speaker was Tom Eliff. The fired man was Paul Debusman.

    Mohler was making an example of an old man. Mohler has been the power monger Mohler for decades. Trust me, he and Mahaney were using each other. It has not affected him negatively. Mohler could care less what we think of him. We are nobodies in his world.


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    Velour wrote:

    . They aren’t as innocent, naïve, and deceived as you think. They don’t care

    Right. They were not deluded by Mahaney. Both Mohler and Dever see themselves as scholars/ theologians. I think the initial attraction to the bromance was numbers for the Reformed brand and money.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    [Dever quote about the removal of 256 names from the CHBC membership rolls:] “I think the church began to understand that someone isn’t saved by having their name on the members list. Someone is saved by having a relationship with Christ, and if they’re not evidently living that out in front of us, it’s not appropriate for them to be a member. It doesn’t mean we don’t think they’re not a Christian, it just means we’re not in a position as a church to know.”

    This just absolutely galls me. The nerve of these people.

    It also reminds me of an old TV commercial about garment inspectors. A woman holds up a pair of brand-new underpants and furiously tries to tear them while proclaiming, “They don’t say Hanes till I say they say Hanes!”


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    @ Dave (Eagle):
    That’s interesting information, Dave. It leads me to wonder, as I have done before, why Dever would invent something like 9Marks if he were pastoring a large church of relatively wealthy congregants? What would motivate him to spend his attention outside of his church, the people there, serving their needs, especially when he’s being paid well, no doubt, to do so?

    Also, what about the conflict of interest here? If Dever receives income through this 9Marks ministry of his, wouldn’t he be inclined to invest his time and energy into keeping the side of his bread that gets the more butter?

    Additionally, do you know anything about how an organization like The Gospel Coalition works? What agreement do the churches enter into with TGC that join it, do you have any idea? I’m guessing some fees are involved. I’ve noticed the churches that are members of The Gospel Coalition advertise that on their websites, like it gives them credibility.


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    Friend wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    [Dever quote about the removal of 256 names from the CHBC membership rolls:] “I think the church began to understand that someone isn’t saved by having their name on the members list. Someone is saved by having a relationship with Christ, and if they’re not evidently living that out in front of us, it’s not appropriate for them to be a member. It doesn’t mean we don’t think they’re not a Christian, it just means we’re not in a position as a church to know.”

    This just absolutely galls me. The nerve of these people.

    Since when can churches really tell who is a Christian whether they are in church every week or not? What arrogance!


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    Velour wrote:

    Mohler, Dever, Duncan have been on a dysfunctional authoritarian trajectory for decades, wanting to take over American churches with their views (by first taking over seminaries, indoctrinating seminarians, and then eventually church take-overs). They aren’t as innocent, naïve, and deceived as you think. They don’t care. They’ve relegated women to second class status and justified it. And children are relegated to third class status as are sex crimes in the church. They aren’t grieved by these things. They joke about them at the big conferences they attend with their fan boys. They don’t care!

    This is true! Admittedly I’m less familiar with these men personally, and yes, I totally see what your saying about them and this dysfunctional trajectory they’ve been involved in for decades, as you put it. I think because of this, it makes sense they’d invite Mahaney on board (although I think Mahaney capitalized on the opportunity to do, and worked hard to study and insinuate himself among them).

    Perhaps you can tell me what you think about these men and their level of sincerity? You may have noticed I’ve declared Mahaney a fraud. I agree the other men are neither innocent or naive, but would you say they’re frauds? Deluded? Deceived? I don’t know any of them personally and have never been in the same room with any of them at any time other than Mahaney.


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    @ Velour:
    Additionally, as far as I know, neither Duncan, Dever or Mohler has been involved in the type of scandal that plagues Mahaney and his ministry, all of which pre-dates his jumping on board the Conservative Resurgence Calvinist Baptist Reformed Protestant Resurgence.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    It makes sense that Dever might have introduced Mahaney to the others.

    I have heard from a reliable source that Dever introduced Mahaney to the others. I believe that to be the case. I don’t know how Dever and Mahaney crossed paths.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Additionally, as far as I know, neither Duncan, Dever or Mohler has been involved in the type of scandal that plagues Mahaney and his ministry, all of which pre-dates his jumping on board the Conservative Resurgence Calvinist Baptist Reformed Protestant Resurgence.

    The same rotten root is there and perhaps both had less tyrannical opportunity until the last 15 years or so. However, Mohler did his fair share of throwing a lot of decent people under the bus when he took over sbts. And a lot is hidden so who knows. They put their seal of approval on Mahaney which was quite a feat for the SBC. Now Mahaney is SBC. Unthinkable 30 years ago.

    Mohler aspired to Mahaneys dictatorial autonomy as head Apostle of a Shepherding cult. And he got it with yes men trustees.. but he does not need the title.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Mohler introduced Mahaney at T4G16 by dismissing the voices of all of us speaking out against him on the Internet. That was a stab in the back.

    I agree with what you wrote, and those are my conclusions as well. I appreciate the clarification, and FWIW I sometimes misunderstand what people mean. Here’s the thing with me as an outsider. Even *IF* Mahaney is totally innocent regarding the sexual abuse coverup (and I think the evidence is clear that he is not) his failure to handle the entire matter with wisdom and faithfulness is enough to remove him from his position as a representative of the church. Serving in ministry is not a career and is not an entitlement. It is a privilege.

    But the sexual abuse that occurred is not the only disqualifying factor. He has a *PATTERN* of behavior that is unbecoming to the Gospel. The only thing I disagree with in your comment is that Dever and Mohler and Duncan were duped. And even *IF* they were duped by a master con, then that only shows how foolish and lacking in discernment they are. It shows that they do not have what it takes to be guardians of the sheep, as they portray themselves so much. Their failure to repent shows that they are stiff-necked. I am stiff-necked, but I am not holding myself up as an example to the flock.

    If it makes you feel any better, the whole Mahaney shamecircus and our utter shock at our elders’ indifference to it is one of the reasons Gramp3 and I were keyed out of the kingdom. However, we are secure that we have been kept safe in the Kingdom by the seal of the Holy Spirit.


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    @ Gram3:
    The good news is now that we are on the outside, we have discovered lots of people we know from several other churches who have had similar experiences. We did not know that prior to our unfortunate fall from grace. Discovering we are not alone has been encouraging to us in a weird sort of way. These are people we have known for decades in various places and times. Every one of them has served faithfully and knows the true Gospel, so there is something going on.


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    Lydia wrote:

    However, Mohler did his fair share of throwing a lot of decent people under the bus when he took over sbts. And a lot is hidden so who knows.

    I’ve read about some of those incidences and the polarization he caused. On the one hand, I can understand the concern over some of the liberalization and the shared concern over the “inerrancy” of Scripture. The solution that was devised to correct the course may have been good in some ways? The impression I get is that generally, many people feel like SBC ended up being usurped by the guys who implemented this plan, and many people were ignored and alienated (bullied into submisdion) in the process.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I mean, if I were just guessing without reading them, I would guess that “love thy neighbor” would be the first mark.

    Ditto. I would have thought Jesus made it abundantly clear: ‘By THIS all people will know that you are my disciples: that you LOVE one another.’ Basically, love was Jesus’ only ‘mark’ of a true church. But it doesn’t even make number nine for Mark Dever & Co.

    Very concerning. They can’t even grasp basics of the gospel.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    The sad truth is, this man was willing to construct a document and make it an absolute necessity to remain a member of the church, even if one had been a member there and had donated thousands of hard-earned dollars to support that church long before Mark Dever was a sucking infant.

    The arrogance is breath-taking, really.

    Just like setting up a para-church organisation that tells churches everywhere how to ‘do church’ when you’re only 31.

    I’m learning a lot from this post.


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    @ Paula Rice:
    Well, if we have not learned by now how easy it is to whip up concerns over gospelly issues and rally the troops around terms like inerrancy. Correct Doctrine, evil culture, etc i am not sure we have learned much about at all about the dangers of groupthink, movements, tribes, gurus, etc.

    The difference is the CR took longer and was at least done by vote, not stealth, but without social media and instant celebrity guru status.

    The total irony of the CR is that many of the bodies thrown under the bus sound like typical evangelical conservatives today. Sort of like listening to a JFK speech today. The guy sounds right wing! Funny how that works.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    And even *IF* they were duped by a master con, then that only shows how foolish and lacking in discernment they are. It shows that they do not have what it takes to be guardians of the sheep, as they portray themselves so much.

    I sense, without knowing the other men, that Mahaney exploited certain elements he discovered in men like Dever, Duncan and Mohler. I think Mahaney used a lot of money and a lot of flattery on these guys, which they were all inclined to accept. The inclination to give in to certain vices is, of course, their own responsibility. It’s probably more accurate to suggest they were duped by their own duplicity.


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    @ Lydia:

    I have not no… what is it about?


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    The 9 Marks sound like a business consultant’s generic seminar introduction to their services. Just substitute corporate catch phrases like “goals” and “customer bases” for “Biblical good news” and “new members.”

    More to the point: By what authority could Dever presume, at any age, the state of individuals’ spiritual conditions, or whether they were mature in their faith? His arrogance–and his customers’ gullibility–astounding.


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    dee wrote:

    anon wrote:
    The original seed money for 9Marks was given by a non-Christian neighbor, who had seen the things CHBC was doing in the surrounding area and wanted them to replicate it elsewhere.
    Wow! So, he was so impressed with the strong authoritarian bent, the membership requirements, etc., that he couldn’t help but contribute even though he was a nonbeliever? And the money didn’t even go towards the church but towards funding an organization that would go on to fulfill these amorphous ideals within Christendom. And he wasn’t a Christian? Fascinating. The nonChristian world is stunned by the 9 Marks program!

    Anon’s contention does sound like fanciful nonsense. Not impossible, but very unlikely. But as I said earlier, even if it’s true, it’s not really that relevant to the general thrust of what goes on here. Money that parishoners work hard to accumulate and then tithe does get passed around behind their backs rather freely by leaders one to another to curry favor with each other. Of course they get the credit for their great generosity when for the most part it was other people’s money all the way. They are parasitical to the core.


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    @ Paula Rice:

    There are a number of churches that are affiliated with The Gospel Coalition in the DC area. These are some of them:

    McLean Bible
    Cornerstone EFCA (Annandale)
    Cherry Dale Baptist
    The Falls Church Anglican

    A number of Baptist are also on there as well.


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    Lea wrote:

    What I don’t get, apart from the fact that we’re supposed to be doing things in secret not in front of everyone from a Christian perspective, is why people didn’t absolutely die from the tackiness of this check giving in public!

    I know. I thought maybe it was an American thing. True, if CJ donated money secretly and this was later uncovered (say by the wonderful Deebs) it would look bad. That’s why transparency – books and accounts being published openly – would be the healthy thing to do. Donations could be made public, while avoiding the whole tacky showmanship that CJ loves so much. My church publishes all its accounts annually, down to the last penny – including what the pastor earns.

    In fact, one might call this transparency over finances a MARK of a HEALTHY CHURCH. Needless to say, it’s not on Dever’s list :/


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    @ Lydia:
    I became a Christian at a time when, I discovered as I went along, certain cultural concerns were problems confronting the church: feminism, biblical inerrancy, the family, public education, liberal seminaries, for example. I recall feeling concerned about the authority of Scripture and thinking that someone couldn’t really preach unless the Gospel if they had any doubts about the inerrancy of Scripture. A certain strain of fundamentalism arose that became very narrow in focus, and it included interpreting Scripture in a way that absolutely and without question excluded women from Christian ministry for the most part. Feminism was viewed as an assault upon the church and the family that, in “God’s order,” was supposed to be led by men.

    So, I can understand the reaction within the SBC to these perceived threats, and why, for example, a fundamentalist approach was adopted by SBC men like Patterson, Mohler, et al, and why the Seminaries received special attention. I can also imagine how they would have been driven by a sense of wanting to preserve the purity of gospel and the ministry of the SBC. I’ve never been a Southern Baptist, but I’ve been around long enough to recognize the progression.

    I think a vacuum developed at some point, and in it we find a certain rigid element that is resistant to change, that simply isn’t open to accepting any new directions, because that’s what they’ve been fighting against for so long. And I see Mohler, Duncan, Dever as examples of the kind of people caught up in this vacuum.

    The question I have is (if this is remotely the case, and it certainly can be argued their current position that includes Mahaney is problematic) if they have acted more or less in good faith (and people can make serious mistakes even in good faith) why aren’t they listening to anybody regarding Mahaney. Why??? That, to me, is a sign of BAD FAITH.


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    Lydia wrote:

    One of his first dirty acts as SBTS Prez at 34 was to fire a 60 something year old man 8 mos from his retirement because he dared to correct a chapel speaker using FACTS in a professional letter. He was some sort of library archivist who would know such facts. The chapel speaker was Tom Eliff. The fired man was Paul Debusman.

    I think about the man who was fired from time to time. I worry about what has become of him and his family.


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    Lea wrote:

    Since when can churches really tell who is a Christian whether they are in church every week or not? What arrogance!

    Yup


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    But what would happen to their leadership, their integrity, their movement, if it were discovered that they, themselves, had allowed someone to come in among them that they failed to discern was a liar and a deceiver? How could anyone trust their leadership?

    For quite a while now, I’ve believed that CJ Mahaney will fall from grace. And that he’ll bring the whole T4G/ TGC shebang down with him. And that they will deserve it.

    He will be their nemesis.


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    There are a number of churches that are affiliated with The Gospel Coalition in the DC area. These are some of them:

    McLean Bible
    Cornerstone EFCA (Annandale)
    Cherry Dale Baptist
    The Falls Church Anglican

    A number of Baptist are also on there as well.

    I’ve also counted at least 20 current Sovereign Grace churches (although some former SG churches remain members of TGC even after parting company with Sovereign Grace).

    I’m just wondering what’s involved in becoming a “member” of The Gospel Coalition, or a “member” of 9Marks, does anyone know? Is there an annual membership fee required aside from agreeing to their statement of beliefs? Maybe it’s free? I kinda doubt it, though.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    . Discovering we are not alone has been encouraging to us in a weird sort of way.

    Gram3, would you be willing to share your story? You probably already have so if you have, I’ll search for it somehow. Thank you.


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    All Trolls wrote:

    More to the point: By what authority could Dever presume, at any age, the state of individuals’ spiritual conditions, or whether they were mature in their faith? His arrogance–and his customers’ gullibility–astounding.

    Protestant Pope Mark Dever believes that he and all of your other neighborhood church “popes” and “cardinals” (associate pastors/elders) have the right to excommunicate anyone who doesn’t agree with them as you surely must be “unsaved”.

    Like Gram3 (and Gramp3), I too was ‘keyed out’ (Gram3’s saying) of my local 9Marxist church (over the issue of protesting the pastors/elders bringing a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer to church, giving him membership, leadership, and access to children and telling NO ONE. Godly women with Ph.D.’s weren’t permitted to serve, but a Megan’s List sex offender/felon trumps being a mere woman.


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    @ May:
    Yup


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    @ Paula Rice:

    I think its doctrinal alignment. For example McLean Bible has made a lot of changes to fit into The Gospel Coalition. They have scrapped Frontline, pushing more of discipleship as TGC teaches, and torn out a number of things the used to have.


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    May wrote:

    I thought maybe it was an American thing.

    NO!!!! I’ve NEVER been in a church where such a tacky/embarrassing/crude thing was done. Not American, at all. Though all sin is everywhere, that’s one I’ve never even HEARD of ’til now.


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    Velour wrote:

    over the issue of protesting the pastors/elders bringing a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer to church, giving him membership, leadership, and access to children and telling NO ONE.

    WHATTTT?!?!?!?!? What the heck!?!?!!? How, in this day and age with so much knowledge and data about re-offending, do some still persist in ignorance?!? HOW?!?!


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    Stunned wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    over the issue of protesting the pastors/elders bringing a Megan’s List sex offender/child pornographer to church, giving him membership, leadership, and access to children and telling NO ONE.

    WHATTTT?!?!?!?!? What the heck!?!?!!? How, in this day and age with so much knowledge and data about re-offending, do some still persist in ignorance?!? HOW?!?!

    The pastors/elders defended the Megan’s List sex offender because he was their personal friend, they visited him in prison, they’ve known him for decades, and they said that he’s ‘harmless’ to children (somebody who’s sexually attracted to kids?). The pastors/elders said they would entrust their own kids to him. The pastors/elders told me that fathers had ‘final say’ over their families and that if fathers permitted the sex offender to touch the kids that was ok and mothers ‘had no say’ and were ‘to obey’ and ‘to submit’. That’s a felony crime in my state (CA) and mother’s are required by law to protect their children, CPS can take them away for failure, and moms can land in state prison (and do).

    The pastors/elders told me to never contact law enforcement again about the sex offender, that I was ‘to obey’ my elders in ‘all things’. In other words, obstruction of justice which is a felony and conspiracy (another felony) that the pastors/elders can be prosecuted and land in state prison.


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    @ Velour:

    What happened to you, and in your former church, is truly shocking. Have you done a post on it at TWW? If so I think I missed it.


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    May wrote:

    @ Velour:

    What happened to you, and in your former church, is truly shocking. Have you done a post on it at TWW? If so I think I missed it.

    No, I haven’t written up my story for TWW, although they do know about it.
    I think it’s taken me some time to calm down and collect my thoughts about a lot that was wrong with that church and many others like it. 9Marks/NeoCalvinism. Membership Covenants. Patriarchy. Nouthetic Counseling (Bible counseling for serious problems with no input from a licensed, trained professional like a physician). Young Earth Creation (earth is supposedly 6,000 years old). Excommunicatons and shunnings for anything.


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    @ Paula Rice:
    I totally understand people getting caught up in concerns, movements, etc. I am one of them.

    I do not think Mohler and co. are the same at all. They create movements, choose issues to rally the troops around and such. They go in with an ambitious personal agenda. They learn from earlier movements, look for opportunities, ride coattails, build gravitas on the issues, etc. They brown nose the movers and shakers with power. (Mohler had no qualms raising money for an ousted “liberal” president)

    Mohler spent years as a culture warrior building up his Bona fides within the SBC. In the 1990’s, Time magazine listed him as an up and coming influential evangelical. He was on the radio every day with social commentary. Still is. I heard him this morning.

    No one even thought about him being a Calvinist. It was all about social issues. He became trusted. He was able then to surround himself at Southern with loyalists. Then he had the gravitas to put loyalists in as entity heads while partnering with non SBC groups to build a new brand.

    there were not enough calvinist pastoring jobs for all the young men coming out of Seminary so they started planting reformed churches using SBC resources like NAMB.

    Also, I don’t think the very people who support and are inside the institution are going to be the ones to radically change them. It would be a bloody conflict. Tyrants play for keeps. I have seen quite a few people ruined when they dared to speak up in a kind genuine way.

    The best way, IMO, is for these movements to die for lack of funds because people stop throwing their hard earned money away on them. And that happens gradually as information comes out.

    Remember, they are always recruiting. They have to. Social media changed everything. Just not fast enough but they are bothered, I can tell. They are subtly changing their message and focus to attract a new crop. And there is a tad bit more grumbling on the periphery. But still, 8 thou went to hear a pedophile protector preach. That says it all.


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    May wrote:

    For quite a while now, I’ve believed that CJ Mahaney will fall from grace. And that he’ll bring the whole T4G/ TGC shebang down with him. And that they will deserve it.

    He will be their nemesis.

    I personally think that ship sailed. They have managed to normalize it all and end up shaming and censoring any negative about them or the movement. People in the movement have no idea what a bubble they are in unless they engage outsiders like us.

    Worse, Mohler, Dever, etc agree and seek to emulate the Shepherding cult structure. It is every despots dream.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    My opinion is that Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and Ligon Duncan have been duped by Mahaney. They have believed him and share in his sin. I believe all of them are attached to each other by virtue of pride, and it’s pride that prevents Duncan, Dever or Mohler from ever admitting that they’ve been duped by Mahaney.

    My opinion (fwiw) is that they are like-minded birds of a feather who have formed liaisons for mutual benefit. Remove Mahaney from the picture and you still have major problems. Read Galatians 1 and then Dever’s 9 marks and then tell me if you see anything remotely biblical in his entire program. Maybe he uses the word biblical so excessively to try to make up for the fact that none of it is biblical. It is of the flesh, of the old nature, all of it.


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    siteseer wrote:

    they are like-minded birds of a feather who have formed liaisons for mutual benefit. Remove Mahaney from the picture and you still have major problems. Read Galatians 1 and then Dever’s 9 marks and then tell me if you see anything remotely biblical in his entire program.

    Agreed. And they use *Biblical* (“do it our way”) to shut down conversation, challenge, and any critical thinking skills.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    Mohler introduced Mahaney at T4G16 by dismissing the voices of all of us speaking out against him on the Internet. That was a stab in the back.

    I think, technically, it was more of a slap in the face.


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    Deb wrote:

    Patriciamc wrote:
    Maybe TWW should change its title to The Wartburg Watch, a Biblical Watchblog.
    I like that!

    LOL. Well, I thought, shoot, we can play that game too!


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    lowlandseer wrote:

    The following is the text from the section called “The Funding Provided”

    While Mark was presenting portions of the 9Marks material at a new members’ class for Capitol Hill Baptist Church, an observant neighbor began quietly listening in from the back of the room, often attending the same sessions more than once. Encouraged, he made three very generous donations over the next three years that helped fund the nascent work of the Center for Church Reform (CCR), which has now become 9Marks Ministries. Since then, the congregation of Capitol Hill Baptist Church has functioned as the primary sponsor, with financial contributions from other churches and private individuals appreciated along the way.

    This sure is weird. A “neighbor” (how is neighbor exactly defined? A guy who lives next door and happened to wander into the church?) -and not just ‘a neighbor’ but ‘an OBSERVANT neighbor’ (??) kept coming back and listening to the new members’ class? but he is not a believer and was not taking the class to become a member himself? Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

    So, then, he liked what he heard about Dever’s laws and punishments and control that he thought it would be a great idea to fund it, so it could be spread to other places? Not that he stood to benefit, personally, in any way? He just had some extra money burning a hole in his pocket?

    Is that the gist of it?


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    Velour wrote:

    they said that he’s ‘harmless’ to children (somebody who’s sexually attracted to kids?). The pastors/elders said they would entrust their own kids to him. The pastors/elders told me that fathers had ‘final say’ over their families and that if fathers permitted the sex offender to touch the kids that was ok and mothers ‘had no say’ and were ‘to obey’ and ‘to submit’.

    oh my gosh oh my gosh oh my gosh

    this is grievous.


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    @ Velour:
    When you’re ready to tell your story, we are/I am here to listen. 🙁


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    Lydia wrote:

    But still, 8 thou went to hear a pedophile protector preach. That says it all.

    🙁 Too much sadness here, at times. I guess that’s the way this world can be, though.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    The inclination to give in to certain vices is, of course, their own responsibility. It’s probably more accurate to suggest they were duped by their own duplicity.

    “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.”


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    Lydia wrote:

    despots

    Good word. (I needed something good at this point.)


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    Burwell wrote:

    I have long thought that pastors or otherwise gainfully employed “full time Christians” who write books expounding on some Biblical theme, truth or chapter (i.e., in-depth study) should be willing to provide it to anyone who asks at no, or extremely low, cost

    Miles Stanford did this.


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    @ Stunned:

    Yes, we'd love to share it!


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    Stunned wrote:

    Too much sadness here, at times. I guess that’s the way this world can be, though.

    I hear you, Stunned. I occasionally take a month or two off from this forum because wallowing in this stuff can be spiritually exhausting – all praise to those who can keep the heat on day in and out!

    I used to post here a lot more, usually in the vein of what you post. But it’s just so sad some times, too much. Why is this blatant evil not seen for what it is? Where is the discernment? How are people so easily gulled? How dare these charlatans call themselves followers of Christ? Where is the Gospel in all their Gospel-y prating? (Paul is not the Gospel, and they even twist Paul.)

    But as long as the congregations enable this nonsense, it will continue. I don’t get it. I don’t get ‘megachurches’. I don’t get a lot of things. So sad.


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    Max wrote:

    R2 wrote:

    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.

    Yeah, and Bill Clinton sang in the choir at First Baptist Church, Hope AR. Not everything that goes to church is the Church – you know them by their fruit.

    J. Vernon McGee said that you can put a pig in a 3 piece suit and take him to church but that doesn’t make him a child of God and if you turn him loose he’ll go back to the pig pen and roll in the muck (slight paraphrase)


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    I hear ya, Roebuck. 🙁 I’m just very glad we’re not alone anymore!


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    Stunned wrote:

    @ Velour:
    When you’re ready to tell your story, we are/I am here to listen.

    Thank you. I am getting much closer to telling it. It happened in Fall 2014, my excommunication/shunning over it.

    My sister said that she’s glad that they kicked me out as I might never have left on my own. She said that all of the things I’d begun to question about this (cultic/heavy Shepherding Movement-type/9Marxist/John MacArthur-ite) church that everyone else who knew me and didn’t go there saw too and questioned (silently) and not to me.

    I now call churches that do that “spiritual carbon monoxide poisoning”.


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    Velour wrote:

    The pastors/elders told me that fathers had ‘final say’ over their families and that if fathers permitted the sex offender to touch the kids that was ok and mothers ‘had no say’ and were ‘to obey’ and ‘to submit’.

    Paterfamilii Romani have absolute power (including sexual) over ALL their household and property, animate and inanimate.
    AVE, CAESAR!


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    siteseer wrote:

    This sure is weird. A “neighbor” (how is neighbor exactly defined? A guy who lives next door and happened to wander into the church?) -and not just ‘a neighbor’ but ‘an OBSERVANT neighbor’ (??) kept coming back and listening to the new members’ class? but he is not a believer and was not taking the class to become a member himself? Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

    So, then, he liked what he heard about Dever’s laws and punishments and control that he thought it would be a great idea to fund it, so it could be spread to other places? Not that he stood to benefit, personally, in any way? He just had some extra money burning a hole in his pocket?

    Is that the gist of it?

    Only makes sense as an Official Cover Story.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie. It is almost as if Dever has lifted all the Shepherding concepts and repackaged them for our day.

    He didn’t need to lift it. There is an obvious trail from the Fab Five of shepherding/discipleship that goes back to the 70s. Mumford/Simpson to Mahaney/Tomzcak on to Dever.

    From Charles Simpson’s Ministries:
    “I heard a message a few years ago by my friend C.J. Mahaney: ”

    https://www.csmpublishing.org/simplicity-a-beautiful-thing/

    Tomzcak, Simpson & Mumford were Steering Committee Members and signers of the COR Manifesto (Coalition on Revival) which is all about Dominionism, or as they put it “share a vision for and a commitment to revival, renewal, and reformation in Church and society in America.”

    http://www.reformation.net/Pages/COR_Docs_All_Links.htm

    Tomczak wrote articles for New Wine Magazine, the official print mouthpiece of the shepherding/discipleship Fab Five.

    https://www.csmpublishing.org/wp-content/NewWineArchives/Full_Issues/1985/NewWineMagazine_Issue_07-1985.pdf

    https://www.csmpublishing.org/wp-content/NewWineArchives/Full_Issues/1986/NewWineMagazine_Issue_09_1986.pdf

    And a very interesting comment thread on Mahaney/Tomzcak/PDI/SGM/GOB…

    http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2007/08/advertising-kansas-city-conference.html

    A news article from June 27, 1986: “Sheep are instructed to be tight-lipped about their chains of command, and the links are difficult to trace. The movement’s origins are equally unclear. Five American preachers Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Ern Baxter and Don Basham are considered by many to be the founders of shepherding in the United States. In the early 1970s they joined to form Christian Growth Ministries, now based in Mobile, Ala. Defectors from various shepherding “streams” such as Maran-tha, Gospel Outreach and Gathering of Believers report working long hours at household chores for their church elders and “submitting” to shepherds’ scrutiny everything from check book records to detailed accounts of their sex lives. ”

    https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/83620482/

    As KenF noted – the entanglement between all these ‘leaders’ is astounding.


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    siteseer wrote:

    So, then, he liked what he heard about Dever’s laws and punishments and control that he thought it would be a great idea to fund it, so it could be spread to other places?

    Too bad the Capitol Hill Baptist Church *neighbor*/financial backer isn’t willing to pay for psychotherapy and vacations for all of us who got burned by 9Marx and all of its abusive practices. Salem Witch Trials II. Incredible harm across the land. I know believers, including elderly conservatives, who’ve never stepped foot in a church again after experiencing these vicious 9Marxist practices (including excommunications and shunnings).


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    Stunned wrote:

    Though all sin is everywhere, that’s one I’ve never even HEARD of ’til now.

    “There is a sin among you that does not even have a name among the Goyim…”
    — some Rabbi from Tarsus


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    Velour wrote:

    Protestant Pope Mark Dever believes that he and all of your other neighborhood church “popes” and “cardinals” (associate pastors/elders) have the right to excommunicate anyone who doesn’t agree with them as you surely must be “unsaved”.

    And after America is taken back and becomes a REAL Christian Nation(TM) once more, he will have the right to burn all such Heretics.


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    I’m just wondering what’s involved in becoming a “member” of The Gospel Coalition, or a “member” of 9Marks, does anyone know?

    (Waves six-figure check)
    “And THAT’s how you get invited back! (chuckle chuckle)”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    :
    Paterfamilii Romani have absolute power (including sexual) over ALL their household and property, animate and inanimate.
    AVE, CAESAR!

    After hearing my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor, a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary in Southern California, say that he wouldn’t marry a couple unless the bride agreed to *obey* her husband (JMac says same) in the wedding vows, I looked it up. It turns out it comes from ancient, pagan Roman marriage contract law and has NOTHING to do with Biblical Christianity, isn’t even used in most Christian countries!


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    Stunned wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Since when can churches really tell who is a Christian whether they are in church every week or not? What arrogance!

    Yup

    Whatever would God do on J-Day without Pastor Apostle Grima Wormtongue at His right hand, whispering in His ear who is REALLY Saved and who’s not?


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I am currently reading the book and the similarity between 9Marx and the Shepherding movement is erie.

    The connections are like untangling a can of fishing worms.

    Reckless Abandon written By Larry Tomczak, has on the Dedication page “to the following pioneers whom I count as friends and who have impacted my life…” The list includes:
    Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, C. Peter Wagner – and the list goes on.

    http://tinyurl.com/hquzett


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    Paula Rice wrote:

    why aren’t they listening to anybody regarding Mahaney. Why???

    The only anybodies that count are themselves and they ain’t complaining about their own. However, when the outside noise gets loud enough, they will distance themselves from Mahaney. They use each other until the heat gets turned up and then they drop the potatoes that are too hot to handle. Remember Driscoll? Driscoll who?


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    Lydia wrote:

    One of his first dirty acts as SBTS Prez at 34 was to fire a 60 something year old man 8 mos from his retirement because he dared to correct a chapel speaker using FACTS in a professional letter. He was some sort of library archivist who would know such facts. The chapel speaker was Tom Eliff. The fired man was Paul Debusman.

    Mohler was making an example of an old man. Mohler has been the power monger Mohler for decades. Trust me, he and Mahaney were using each other. It has not affected him negatively. Mohler could care less what we think of him. We are nobodies in his world.

    That poor old man was ‘eliminated’ because he tried to tell the truth to a neo-Cal god, so he was sacrificed (made an ‘example’ of). What kind of Christian would treat an old man this way? Somewhere between the money and the notoriety and the ego-trips and the need for control, these power-brokers have lost their souls. Or more likely, sold them.


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    bc wrote:

    Max wrote:
    R2 wrote:
    There have been Congressmen who attended CHBC.
    Yeah, and Bill Clinton sang in the choir at First Baptist Church, Hope AR. Not everything that goes to church is the Church – you know them by their fruit.
    J. Vernon McGee said that you can put a pig in a 3 piece suit and take him to church but that doesn’t make him a child of God and if you turn him loose he’ll go back to the pig pen and roll in the muck (slight paraphrase)


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    Velour wrote:

    After hearing my ex-NeoCalvinist pastor, a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary in Southern California, say that he wouldn’t marry a couple unless the bride agreed to *obey* her husband (JMac says same) in the wedding vows

    Funny, I can’t seem to remember where Jesus said this.

    On a serious note, if Jesus showed up in these neo-cal churches, he’d end up under church discipline.


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    I loved J. Vernon McGee. I had been a Christian for about 9 years when I started listening to him on the radio every morning. He told it like it was. I remember laughing and being convicted all at the same time, I wonder what he would make of these boy/pastors. I bet he could and would cut them down to size in no time.


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    I like a few others here loved J. Vernon McGee, no nonsense Texas-born Presbyterian minister who was in CA and his radio program.
    One of his witty sayings, “In the Bible times it was a miracle when an ass spoke, and now it’s a miracle when one shuts up!”


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    Leslie wrote:

    I loved J. Vernon McGee.

    So did I. I loved his voice, his delivery, and above all his message. But you can still hear it, even today:

    http://www.ttb.org/


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    patriciamc wrote:

    if Jesus showed up in these neo-cal churches, he’d end up under church discipline.

    That’s what I’ve said. These NeoCals are a bunch of Pharisees. (Mohler, Dever, and the rest of them. JMac is too.)


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    @ Velour:

    If Jesus went to the t4g conference, he’d be turning over the tables and bookshelves, like he did with the money changers in the temple.


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    @ Velour:

    I have family in CA. I'd ask if you are in southern, central or northern, but I'm guessing since you are keeping your identity hidden (as do I), you may not want to say. But if you want to say, I am curious. We get out there from time to time and I love a few of the different areas we visit.

    Nosy Stunned 🙂


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    some Rabbi from Tarsus

    🙂


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    Velour wrote:

    a graduate of John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary in Southern California, say that he wouldn’t marry a couple unless the bride agreed to *obey* her husband (JMac says same) in the wedding vows, I looked it up. It turns out it comes from ancient, pagan Roman marriage contract law and has NOTHING to do with Biblical Christianity, isn’t even used in most Christian countries!

    When my parents (conservative, bible believing Christians) got married in the 1950’s, my mom REFUSED to say “obey.” She said that was reserved for Christ alone. Smart woman.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Whatever would God do on J-Day without Pastor Apostle Grima Wormtongue at His right hand, whispering in His ear who is REALLY Saved and who’s not?

    I’m pretty sure God could just check church attendance records. That’s how you can tell who’s a christian or not, right?


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    patriciamc wrote:

    if Jesus showed up in these neo-cal churches, he’d end up under church discipline

    After tearing up all the books in the “church’s” bookstore and emptying out the tolls?


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    Oops, Joe already said that.


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    Stunned wrote:

    @ Velour:
    I have family in CA. I’d ask if you are in souther, central or northern, but I’m guessing since you are keeping your identity hidden (as do I), you may not want to say. But if you want to say, I am curious. We get out there from time to time and I love a few of the different areas we visit.

    Nosy Stunned

    I’m in Northern California. I’m in Silicon Valley.


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    @ Stunned:
    The long of it is way too long and stretches over many years and several churches. Along with some others who raised inconvenient questions, we were keyed out of our most recent former church. That is an expression I use to describe the process Jonathan Leeman of 9marks calls “exercising the keys.” Some people left along the way as changes happened to that church. Others who had served the church for a long time were clearly pushed out, winsomely of course. We did not agree with what was an un-Biblical agenda (despite the “Biblical” word being plastered all over said agenda.) We saw the Gospel being loaded down with law, law, law.

    I, as a woman, was informed that due to Eve’s sin I am inherently rebellious and always looking for ways to usurp my husband’s authority. We were repulsed by the worship of mere men of whom Driscoll and Mahaney are examples. We saw disqualifying behavior glossed over or excused.

    Unlike some here, I do not object in principle to some in the church functioning as elders, and over the years we have belonged to several churches led by elders. However, they must meet the qualifications listed, and those are primarily ones of character and demonstrated ability to teach and protect. The qualifications Paul lists do not include affiliation and loyalty except for loyalty to Christ. It is not, as far as I can see from the actual texts, an office but rather a function. Along with that, we believe that Hebrews 13 follows Hebrews 11 for a reason. The elders at our most recent former church are yes-men and smitten with the Gospel Glitterati just like the “vast millions” that the Fab Four talked about following the dismissal of the SGM lawsuit *which was not a judgment on the merits of the suit* despite the misleading language used by the Mahaney apologists. There were also apologists for Driscoll before that became inconvenient.

    It has not always been so in the conservative church, at least on this scale. It is my belief that there is nothing remotely conservative or evangelical and most certainly there is nothing (ana)Baptist about this movement. It is, IMO, just another system of works righteousness and clericalism which is oddly led by men who claim to be Baptist. “Baptist clericalist” used to be and still should be an oxymoron.

    I wish that I could say that our most recent former church is an outlier. But after talking with so many others approximately our age who have had similar experiences, I do not think that it is.


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    @ Velour:
    Darn, we don’t get up there very much. Hope it’s a nice spring for ya.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    We saw the Gospel being loaded down with law, law, law.

    Some day these people will know that Christ came to set them free from the law of sin and death! LIFE and that much more abundantly. HE is the fulfillment of the law; neither we nor our actions ever could be the fulfillment of it. Him and Him alone.

    I look forward to the day that He makes all things right. Come, Lord Jesus, come!


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    Stunned wrote:

    @ Velour:
    Darn, we don’t get up there very much. Hope it’s a nice spring for ya.

    Thanks. It was lovely here today. Like summer. I hope you have a nice spring and summer as well.


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    Stunned wrote:

    HE is the fulfillment of the law; neither we nor our actions ever could be the fulfillment of it. Him and Him alone.

    Well, you know, these folks talk a lot about the Reformational Solas. I wonder if they have ever thought about how very un-Reformational this YRR/”Gospel” Resurgence movement really is? I hope that many who are caught up in it will realize this is not about Jesus at all, and especially I hope that the leaders who have been deceived have their eyes opened and have the courage to say, “I was wrong, and please forgive me for leading you away from following Jesus.”


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    @ Stunned:
    Though I was direct with “anon” with his information about the donor, I have to say that I know several young men who might well have written what he(?) did. Some of them I believe are very sincere. Some of them I no longer believe are sincere. I know a handful who were true believers but could not ignore what they saw that was inconsistent with what they knew was true. I wonder what makes the difference? Why did I buy into a false teaching for so long? What else do I believe is true that is not? The best I can come up with to explain that is that I was so tightly focused on certain things that I did not see other very important parts of the picture. Lets hope that legions of young people are not as slow to see things as I have been.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    What else do I believe is true that is not? The best I can come up with to explain that is that I was so tightly focused on certain things that I did not see other very important parts of the picture. Lets hope that legions of young people are not as slow to see things as I have been.

    Amen and amen.


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    Velour wrote:

    Agreed. And they use *Biblical* (“do it our way”) to shut down conversation, challenge, and any critical thinking skills.

    I’ve argued here and elsewhere that this mindset is not much more than 40-45 years old and almost exclusively American in origin. American fundagelicalism has done pretty much with the Bible as Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I’ve argued here and elsewhere that this mindset is not much more than 40-45 years old and almost exclusively American in origin. American fundagelicalism has done pretty much with the Bible as Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an.

    Brad/FuturistGuy blogger came up with a great term for the NeoCalvinists’ new “war on women” (Patriarchy/Complementarism/”obey and submit” junk): Shehad. She + Had, sounds like jihad.

    And of course the NeoCals are fond of outright heresy, like the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son to justify their Patriarchy/Comp nonsense.


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    BL wrote:

    Reckless Abandon written By Larry Tomczak, has on the Dedication page “to the following pioneers whom I count as friends and who have impacted my life…” The list includes:
    Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Charles Simpson, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, C. Peter Wagner – and the list goes on.

    Interesting. I found this quote in “The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Ecclesiology”

    “Unofficial alliances were formed with Bob Weiner’s Maranatha Campus Ministries and Larry Tomczak’s People of Destiny.” page 164

    This book was published in 2003. I wonder why Mahaney’s name was not mentioned, after all he and Tomczak were co-founders of the movement?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ Stunned:
    Though I was direct with “anon” with his information about the donor, I have to say that I know several young men who might well have written what he(?) did. Some of them I believe are very sincere. Some of them I no longer believe are sincere. I know a handful who were true believers but could not ignore what they saw that was inconsistent with what they knew was true. I wonder what makes the difference? Why did I buy into a false teaching for so long? What else do I believe is true that is not? The best I can come up with to explain that is that I was so tightly focused on certain things that I did not see other very important parts of the picture. Lets hope that legions of young people are not as slow to see things as I have been.

    Very similar to my own thoughts.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    This book was published in 2003. I wonder why Mahaney’s name was not mentioned, after all he and Tomczak were co-founders of the movement?

    I think that Tomczak was higher on the totem pole than Mahaney initially.

    Ran across this on SGM Survivors:

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2012/03/10/five-questions-every-sovereign-grace-member-should-be-asking/

    “Charles Simpson was a friend of CJ’s, and a speaker at many of their churches and
    Celebration conferences. Simpson met with Dave Harvey, and spoke at the Philly church at the same time Harvey was putting together his Polity reference for SGM.

    They definitely have their roots in the movement, and in most ways,
    are the Shepherding Movement repackaged. Those roots have often been the subject of discussion, and main posts here for some time.”

    So, looks like there is support for the commonality that you noticed.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    know a handful who were true believers but could not ignore what they saw that was inconsistent with what they knew was true. I wonder what makes the difference? Why did I buy into a false teaching for so long? What else do I believe is true that is not? The best I can come up with to explain that is that I was so tightly focused on certain things that I did not see other very important parts of the picture. Lets hope that legions of young people are not as slow to see things as I have been

    I have a theory based on my time in seeker megas. Church is usually not a place for real thinking. It is not really encouraged, if you think about it. We go there to be receivers but never really think that through. There might be some interaction in SS or small groups but everyone is usually very careful what they say. And those who aren’t, are seen as troublemakers. The whole ficus is on conformity while claiming it isn’t.

    In this environment, it can take a long time to question. I know it did for me. We also go in assuming it is all good. Until we know better.

    I am impressed and admire folks who catch on quickly to the cognitive dissonance in not only behavior but the teaching. Frankly, the ones I know who did were already no nonsense types secure in their identity outside the group. They are not always the most popular either. But the one you call in an emergency.


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    @ Lydia:

    “The whole ficus is on conformity while claiming it isn’t.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    the customary silk plants dotted around the church, sure, but the focus, as well.:)

    as to church being not a place for real thinking, i this this has been the case in even in the best churches I’ve been involved in. how can this not be the case with the typical church service format? I mean, that is the point of the sermon — to receive information. stop.

    now in a college class, there’s a lecture and you receive, but there is also great motivation to process it, analyze it, synthesize it with other relevant data. your grade depends on it (hopefully, at least).


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    This book was published in 2003. I wonder why Mahaney’s name was not mentioned, after all he and Tomczak were co-founders of the movement?

    (waves six-figure check)
    “And that’s how you get invited back! (chuckle chuckle)”


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I’ve argued here and elsewhere that this mindset is not much more than 40-45 years old and almost exclusively American in origin. American fundagelicalism has done pretty much with the Bible as Wahhabi Islam has done with their Qur’an.

    And the Wahabi begat the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and al-Daesh/ISIS.
    Each trying to be more Islamic than the previous.


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    Velour wrote:

    I’m in Northern California. I’m in Silicon Valley.

    I know someone from Redding (up near Mount Shasta).
    To him, San Francisco and Silicon Valley are Southern California.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    I mean, that is the point of the sermon — to receive information. stop.

    I honestly think sunday school, the good kind with real study and give and take, is the best way to really learn in church. The sermon/liturgy is more communal/social.


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    Dave (Eagle) wrote:

    There are a number of churches that are affiliated with The Gospel Coalition in the DC area. These are some of them:
    McLean Bible
    Cornerstone EFCA (Annandale)
    Cherry Dale Baptist
    The Falls Church Anglican

    When you have a moment… exactly how is the Falls Church Anglican affiliated with the Gospel Coalition?

    The Falls Church Anglican website mentions its connection to the Anglican Church in North America (ACNA). They assert themselves as the legitimate and unchanged Falls Church connected to George Washington, even though they expelled the ten percent of the congregation that voted against leaving the Episcopal Church, and even though the civil courts forced them to return the historic property to those Episcopalians. As a matter of fact, the Falls Church Episcopal congregation is growing quite well, now that it’s back home.

    After reading TWW for awhile, I think the split in the Episcopal Church resulted from a variant of the stealth takeovers discussed here. Instead of membership covenants and elder boards, some Episcopal parishes and dioceses voted (in a congregational way) to leave the Episcopal Church and place themselves under the authority of Anglican groups based overseas.

    Yes, the catalyst was the consecration of an openly gay bishop in one diocese. But if you talk to the neo-Anglicans, they will often say that they had objected to the 1979 edition of the Book of Common Prayer, and to the ordination of women.

    It’s way too simple to write off the current Episcopal Church as liberals who have lost their moral and biblical moorings. To me, the Episcopal Church feels more like the people left at the Thanksgiving dinner table after some folks had a big fight and stormed off. I lived through the dispute in my parish, and now I wonder exactly why it started. Maybe an observant neighbor was sitting in the back of the room.


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    Friend wrote:

    exactly how is the Falls Church Anglican affiliated with the Gospel Coalition?

    Its Rector John Yates is a longtime ‘Council Member’ of the calvinist fraternity:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/council


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    “Someone asked what would happen if a member decided not to participate in a community group. The response from one of our leaders was — “That individual would be put under church discipline.”‘

    This is awful and totalitarian. There is something amazingly wrong about this kind of control (and abuse). What is it — a child’s social club where some are in and others are excluded? “If you don’t play by our rules we will punish you” is what they seem to be saying. Is what the YRR crowd are espousing a return to orthodoxy in church order? Seem they harken back to the Puritans.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Though I was direct with “anon” with his information about the donor, I have to say that I know several young men who might well have written what he(?) did. Some of them I believe are very sincere. Some of them I no longer believe are sincere. I know a handful who were true believers but could not ignore what they saw that was inconsistent with what they knew was true. I wonder what makes the difference? Why did I buy into a false teaching for so long? What else do I believe is true that is not? The best I can come up with to explain that is that I was so tightly focused on certain things that I did not see other very important parts of the picture. Lets hope that legions of young people are not as slow to see things as I have been.

    Very similar to my experience. Being exposed to people like you has enabled me to better articulate/understand those days. I know a lot of families from Covenant Life (of old), Capital Baptist (my friend in NC heavily encouraged us to make the long drive and attend there several years back). Been involved in a handful of the Master’s Seminary, and also New Covenant reformed churches across the States and Canada. Have friends that are most likely now involved with Driscol in his new venture in AZ. Really has been painful letting go of relationships over the past ten years.

    Reading about Bent Tree Bible’s journey in taking 25 years to allow women to participate in leadership was eye opening. He admitted “controlling passages” was a factor. I see “controlling voices” was the over-arching factor in why it took us so long to get out. Every group has its “controlling voices” (even blogs). Usually made up of the most intelligent, vocal folks with the mindset towards ‘biblical manipulation’ (aka… discipleship). I’d love to see/taste what genuine Spirit-led life in a community that is bound by the Love of Christ looks like. Seems almost unattainable, or rather like a pipe dream. Does it really exist somewhere in a group of more than just two or three gathered?


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    Mark wrote:

    This is awful and totalitarian. There is something amazingly wrong about this kind of control (and abuse).

    Yes, this was my experience at a 9Marxist/NeoCal/John MacArthur-ite church. Attendance is taken at church services and members are called if they are absent from church and admonished to not “forsake the gathering of the saints”. My ex-senior pastor angrily screamed at me in a meeting with the elders that I hadn’t been attending a Bible study at someone’s home and my “excuse”. Me: “It’s a work night. I work and commute. I’m in commute traffic. I’m not back in time.” Yes-men head the Bible studies and report up the chain of command what church members said. Stepford-wifeish and creepy. The whole thing. Just insufferable. Rules, rules, and rules and law, law, and more law.

    Pastors/elders discuss every single member, their spiritual development, attendance at church events, Bible studies, giving, etc in a closed door meeting.

    It was common to be forced into meals and meeting with pastors/elders are restaurants and coffee houses. Not an invitation. An actual order and the threat of discipline for not “obeying” your “shepherds”.


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    Velour wrote:

    Pastors/elders discuss every single member, their spiritual development, attendance at church events, Bible studies, giving, etc in a closed door meeting.
    It was common to be forced into meals and meeting with pastors/elders are restaurants and coffee houses. Not an invitation. An actual order and the threat of discipline for not “obeying” your “shepherds”.

    It’s like they are “case managers” for members of their flock. And everyone in their flock is like a elementary age child? This makes me concerned about any pastor coming out of Southern Seminary or Masters seminary. Maybe all pastors coming out of Neocal seminaries should be treated with suspicion. There may come a time that being associated with Mark Dever and 9 Marks will be considered shameful?


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    Mark wrote:

    It’s like they are “case managers” for members of their flock. And everyone in their flock is like a elementary age child? This makes me concerned about any pastor coming out of Southern Seminary or Masters seminary. Maybe all pastors coming out of Neocal seminaries should be treated with suspicion. There may come a time that being associated with Mark Dever and 9 Marks will be considered shameful?

    The “love affair” with 9Marks, Mark Dever, Acts 29, NeoCalvinism, Patriarchy/Complementarianism, and authoritarianism is over. The Southern Baptists lost a whopping 200,000 living members last year, people just fed up and not willing to put up with these bizarre teachings and abuses any more (marrieds, women, elderly, conservatives, singles – fleeing).

    I’d avoid any church that has pastors with degrees from these authoritarian seminaries, Southern Seminary and John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary (California). My ex-pastor was from JMac’s seminary, which I’ve now come to the conclusion its merely training franchisees to open churches like JMac’s.


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    Pastors are trying to systematize loving people. . Love does not work that way.


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    Jerome wrote:

    Friend wrote:

    exactly how is the Falls Church Anglican affiliated with the Gospel Coalition?

    Its Rector John Yates is a longtime ‘Council Member’ of the calvinist fraternity:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/council

    Thank you. At the time, people said that some parishes wanted to leave the Episcopal Church but lacked a destination. I had always accepted this struggle as a legitimate theological disagreement; but certain individuals benefited from the schism. At this remove, in light of stealth takeovers in other traditions, the departures from the Episcopal Church look somewhat more like a plot.


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    @ kin:

    “I’d love to see/taste what genuine Spirit-led life in a community that is bound by the Love of Christ looks like.”
    +++++++++++

    I feel this can only really happen when money is taken out of the picture. when leaders are volunteers, not salaried. I feel that the need for the acquisition of money creates pressure, stress, worry, as well as distorting priorities — all of which serve to compromise the mission, the reason for existing in the first place.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Pastors are trying to systematize loving people. . Love does not work that way.

    Institutionalized and mass produced, yes I have experienced that “love”.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ kin:
    “I’d love to see/taste what genuine Spirit-led life in a community that is bound by the Love of Christ looks like.”
    +++++++++++
    I feel this can only really happen when money is taken out of the picture. when leaders are volunteers, not salaried. I feel that the need for the acquisition of money creates pressure, stress, worry, as well as distorting priorities — all of which serve to compromise the mission, the reason for existing in the first place.

    I feel this can only really happen in heaven. Maybe I’m a cynic but I have little hope for a pure church here. Even if there was legit persecution, I still think there’d be power struggles and lack of love. Yeah, maybe I am a cynic.


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    kin wrote:

    I’d love to see/taste what genuine Spirit-led life in a community that is bound by the Love of Christ looks like. Seems almost unattainable, or rather like a pipe dream. Does it really exist somewhere in a group of more than just two or three gathered?

    It is difficult, I think. Not impossible, because we have been members of some really good churches without all of the power games and authoritariansm and oppressive overlording. But the pastors of those churches were not into being part of Something Big. They wanted to be pastors of their church family. Not lords over the pewpeons. When they retired, the moved to another church and served there in ordinary ways so that their “legacy” did not impede the new pastor. I think it takes a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of people in the pews. People who strive to be like Jesus and not like the current fave guru.


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    Mark wrote:

    There may come a time that being associated with Mark Dever and 9 Marks will be considered shameful?

    They will be excused by their successors as “men of their time.” As if they were victims of their “time.” That is the pass given to Luther, Calvin, Dabney, Furman, etc.


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    Velour wrote:

    The Southern Baptists lost a whopping 200,000 living members last year, people just fed up and not willing to put up with these bizarre teachings and abuses any more (marrieds, women, elderly, conservatives, singles – fleeing).

    Has there been an effort to ascertain why people have left and where they’ve gone from there?


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    @ Gram3:
    They were men of their time as we are of ours. They weren’t victims of their time as we aren’t of ours. How future generations see us or them will be their opinion, nothing more, nothing less. God alone gives out the passes.


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    Another part of the interview to ponder:

    Dever: “I first thought of the nine marks in a letter I had written to a church plant I had been involved with in the Boston area. I wrote to them in 1991 laying out nine characteristics that marked their church, that were intentional, and that any pastor coming to work with them should understand before he came.”

    (The pastor the church called after receiving Dever’s epistle was none other than Andy Davis, now at FBC Durham, N.C.)

    Where is the exemplar church of 9Marksism now?

    What happened to this model church Dever planted and pastored in the 1980s, New Meadows Baptist Church, Topsfield, Mass.?

    Why did it go belly up just a few years later?
    Was it really a “healthy church”?


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    lowlandseer wrote:

    God alone gives out the passes.

    Yikes. Were those passes given out before the world was formed?


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    @ Jerome:
    And try getting stats on church plant successes/ fails from SBC NAMB that spent pew sitter millions on Acts 29 and similar. No go.

    Even the SBC church planter expert, Ed Setzer, has several fails under his belt while double dipping at LifeWay.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    Pastors are trying to systematize loving people. . Love does not work that way.

    Institutionalized and mass produced, yes I have experienced that “love”.

    Would you like fries with that membership covenant?


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    Jerome wrote:

    Why did it go belly up just a few years later?
    Was it really a “healthy church”?

    For real?!?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Would you like fries with that membership covenant?

    Not fries, they gave me a gift certificate to Starbucks, not caring that I don’t drink coffee. No to coffee? Heretic! Meanwhile the “pastor” spent hours a day at the local coffee shop.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    I feel this can only really happen when money is taken out of the picture. when leaders are volunteers, not salaried. I feel that the need for the acquisition of money creates pressure, stress, worry, as well as distorting priorities — all of which serve to compromise the mission, the reason for existing in the first place.

    That’s my feeling as well. I call it the parasitic paradigm when a salary/paycheck is involved. I see my own errant tendencies to trust in my bank account instead of God. Some of the sweetest days with him have been when I lack money (and health for that matter).


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    Gram3 wrote:

    It is difficult, I think. Not impossible, because we have been members of some really good churches without all of the power games and authoritariansm and oppressive overlording. But the pastors of those churches were not into being part of Something Big. They wanted to be pastors of their church family. Not lords over the pewpeons. When they retired, the moved to another church and served there in ordinary ways so that their “legacy” did not impede the new pastor. I think it takes a certain kind of leader and a certain kind of people in the pews. People who strive to be like Jesus and not like the current fave guru.

    Thanks for the thoughts. We searched for smaller/low profile groups for about a ten year period, but most have eventually split or deceased. We aren’t actively searching to be part of any particular group any longer. Just learning to be part of the body of Christ to those around us while we rest in Him. Kinda lonely in one sense, but in another, we’re ok with it for now.


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    Bill M wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Would you like fries with that membership covenant?

    Not fries, they gave me a gift certificate to Starbucks, not caring that I don’t drink coffee. No to coffee? Heretic! Meanwhile the “pastor” spent hours a day at the local coffee shop.

    That brings to mind an incident in Donna Barr’s surreal Eighties small-press comic The Desert Peach (kind of like a grittier, more surreal M*A*S*H with “Gay Nazis in the North African Desert”).

    In the issue, the Race Purity Boys of the SS are making a Purity inspection of the post, and they have to find an NSDAP Party Member in the unit to front for them. The only Party Card they can find in the personnel files (an “Alter Kampfer” dating back to before the Nazi takeover) is for the most unlikely man in the outfit — the CO’s timid orderly. He explains that as a kid back around ’31 he signed up because the Brown Shirts were offering free beer with each new membership.


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    Velour wrote:

    It was common to be forced into meals and meeting with pastors/elders are restaurants and coffee houses. Not an invitation. An actual order and the threat of discipline for not “obeying” your “shepherds”.

    “We are told by the Commissar that we have Volunteered, Comrade.”


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    @ Velour:
    So true! Wonder whether this ‘generous’ donor ever became a believer.