Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they prosper and die in the hands of politicians. Muhammad Iqbal link
Dennis Hastert- Wikipedia
I really would prefer if this discussion did not descend into a "Why you should not vote for so and so" sort of post. This story is meant to illustrate why some of the gospel™ dudebros look like DC politicians when it comes to child sex abuse.
I believe that Christians could vote for any of the current candidates for many different reasons. I have my own opinions which I do not discuss here because they are not as important to me as the issues surrounding abuse in the broader evangelical church. Abuse is my hill to die on. Politics is not.
Here are the two points that I wish to emphasize in this post.
1. A number of CJ Mahaney apologists claim that since things happened a couple of decades ago, it is impossible as well as irrelevant to advocate for justice in this situation. It is the contention of TWW that decades matter little as we serve Jesus who said that causing little ones to stumble deserve the equivalent of cement boots and the Hudson River. Jesus did not put a time limit on seeking punishment for those who have mistreated children.
2. A few members of The Gospel™ Coalition insist that, if one is a real™ Christian, one would not vote for Trump. TWW contends that so called Christian™ politicians can be just as perverse as non-Christian politicians.
Who was Denny Hastert prior to the recent revelations?
From Wikipedia we learn:
John Dennis "Denny" Hastert (/ˈhæstərt/; born January 2, 1942) is a former Republican politician from Illinois, the 51st Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, serving from 1999 to 2007, and an admitted serial child molester.[4][5] He represented Illinois's 14th congressional district in the House for twenty years, 1987 to 2007. He is the longest-serving Republican Speaker of the House in history.
Hastert grew up in rural Illinois. He graduated from Wheaton College with a degree in economics in 1964 and obtained an education degree from Northern Illinois University three years later. From 1965 to 1981, Hastert was a high school teacher and coach. He lost a 1980 bid for the Illinois House of Representatives, but tried again and won a seat in 1981. He was first elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1987, and re-elected every subsequent election until he retired in 2007. Hastert rose through the Republican ranks in the House, becoming chief deputy whip and eventually Speaker in 1999. As Speaker of the House, Hastert supported the George W. Bush administration's foreign and domestic policies. After Democrats took control of the House in 2007 following the 2006 election, Hastert chose not to seek the position of minority leader, resigned his House seat, and became a lobbyist at the firm of Dickstein Shapiro.
Positions of trust involving minors
Let's hone in on some important information. It is well known that pedophiles attempt to become employed or volunteers in situations that bring them in close contact with children, particularly in positions of trust. Also, such jobs would include having extensive one on one contact with minors as found in churches, schools, coaching and Boy Scouts. Once again, here is some relevant information on Hastert's early years.
Hastert was employed by Yorkville Community Unit School District 115 for sixteen years, from 1965 to 1981.[32] Hastert began working there, at age 23, while still attending NIU.[25]Throughout that time, Hastert worked as a teacher at Yorkville High School (teaching government, history, economics, and sociology), where he also served as a football and wrestling coach.[25][33] Hastert led the school's wrestling team to the 1976 state title and was later named Illinois Coach of the Year.
Hastert was a Boy Scout volunteer with Explorer Post 540 of Yorkville for 17 years, during his time as a schoolteacher and coach.[35] Hastert reportedly traveled with the Explorers on trips to the Grand Canyon, the Bahamas, Minnesota, and the Green River in Utah.[15][35]
I have not been able to find any information about his church and whether or not he volunteered with children in that venue. I would be concerned that he had given his history.
Denny Hastert targeted pedophiles, homosexuals, etc. for punishment while he was in Congress.
The Huffington Post reported in How Dennis Hastert Demonized Gays as Predators While He Was the True ‘Super-Predator.’
Meanwhile, the true example of a “super-predator” appears to have been former GOP House Speaker Dennis Hastert, a man who prosecutors now say molested at least 4 boys, including a 14-year-old and one who years later took his own life. Since the statute of limitations on those crimes, which took place decades ago, has expired, Hastert will only receive up to six months in jail on charges stemming from bank withdrawals of large sums of cash in violation of federal law, in what prosecutors say was for the purpose of “hush money.”
Worse yet, through the years, as he covered up the sexual assaults he committed as a wrestling coach back in Yorkville, Illinois, Hastert pushed policies and positions as a House member and as the Speaker of a far-right GOP majority from 1999 to 2007 that demonized gays in part by portraying gay men as sexual predators.
“We must continue to be proactive warding off pedophiles and other creeps who want to take advantage of our children,” the Illinois congressman stated in promoting a bill to stop exploitation of children online shortly before he became House Speaker. That was brought to light in a Politico report last year which revealed that Hastert had a file in his office labeled “Homosexuals,” which included the sexual predator smear against gay men
The Chicago Tribune reported that Lawmaker Hastert urged life sentences for repeat child molesters.
In Congress, Hastert supported the Child Abuse Prevention and Enforcement Act of 2000, which among other measures, sought to prevent and punish the sexual abuse of minors.
And in 2003, when Utah teenager Elizabeth Smart was recovered after being kidnapped, sexually assaulted and held captive for nine months, Hastert took a strong stance in a statement.
"It is important to have a national notification system to help safely recover children kidnapped by child predators," he said. "But it is equally important to stop those predators before they strike, to put repeat child molesters into jail for the rest of their lives and to help law enforcement with the tools they need to get the job done."
However, there seems to be some evidence that Hastert was a conflicted man while in Congress. For example. U.S. Rep. Mark Foley was forced to resigned in September 2006 after allegations surfaced that he had written sexually explicit emails to a former teen page. Hastert did not appear to be overly concerned about Foley's indiscretions. According to the Chicago Tribune article linked above:
By the end of 2006, a House Ethics Committee investigating the Republican leadership's response to Foley's misconduct concluded that Hastert — then U.S. House speaker — failed to act on earlier warnings and was among many individuals who remained "willfully ignorant" of Foley's misbehavior.
Then-U.S. Rep. John Boehner, of Ohio, was one of those who spoke earlier to Hastert about Foley's misconduct. Boehner told the committee that Hastert had told him the matter "has been taken care of." No one was sanctioned for violating House rules in the case.
Hastert's files on homosexuality/pedophilia may point to his inner struggles.
The Daily Kos posted Dennis Hastert's files show an ongoing interest in pedophilia and homosexuality. It appears that he linked pedophilia to homosexuality. I would be interested in hearing from social workers and psychologists about his fascination with, and seeming loathing of, these subjects.
Just before his election as House speaker in 1999, Dennis Hastert spearheaded legislation to prevent use of the Internet to encourage sexual acts with children. As he often did, Hastert invoked his personal history “as a father and a person who has dealt with public schools for a long time” to urge passage.
…The records show that Hastert’s office kept a legislative file titled “Homosexuals,” filled with policy statements from social conservative groups like the Traditional Values Coalition and the Family Research Council that criticized same-sex marriage and Clinton administration efforts to prevent discrimination against gays and lesbians. The file also includes a 1996 Weekly Standard article, “Pedophilia Chic” that warned that “revisionist suggestions about pedophilia” were being embraced by the left.
Denny Hastert and the statute of limitations,
Unfortunately, the statute of limitations ran out on Hastert's actions. So, prosecutors got him on the only things they could-structuring bank withdrawals and lying to federal investigators. However, the judge did not mince words, calling Hastert a serial child molester after getting Hastert to admit he had molested some teens years ago. The judge gave Hastert a long sentence for the lesser crimes on which he was convicted. He could not sentence Hastert on his crimes against the teens.
Again from Wikipedia:
In May 2015, Hastert was indicted on federal charges of structuring bank withdrawals to evade bank reporting requirements and making false statements to federal investigators.[6][7] Federal prosecutors said that the money was to compensate for and conceal deliberately unspecified misconduct by Hastert against an unnamed individual years earlier.[8][9][10][11][12] Soon afterward, public accusations emerged that Hastert had sexually abused three male students (including the aforementioned unnamed individual) when he was a teacher more than three decades earlier.[13][14][15][16][17][18]
In October 2015, Hastert entered into a plea agreement with prosecutors. Under the agreement, Hastert pleaded guilty to the "structuring" charge (a felony), and the making false statements charge was dropped.[19] In court submissions on sentencing considerations filed in April 2016, federal prosecutors made allegations of sexual misconduct against Hastert, saying that he had molested at least four boys as young as 14 while he worked as a high school wrestling coach decades earlier.[20] At the sentencing hearing later that month, Hastert admitted under pressure from the judge that he had sexually abused boys.[21] The judge in the case referred to Hastert as a "serial child molester" and imposed a sentence of fifteen months in prison, two years' supervised release, and a $250,000 fine.[22][23] Hastert is "one of the highest-ranking politicians in American history to be sentenced to prison."[22]
Did Hastert really repent? It does not seem so at this time.
Hastert's defense team used the old "It was just a groin rub" defense prior to sentencing. It seems he was downplaying his abuse.
Individual A told investigators with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Internal Revenue Service, and the U.S. Attorney’s Office that he “was not sure if” Hastert touched or rubbed his genitals some 42 years ago. What he did remember is this: He had a groin pull, almost surely as a result of competition, and Hastert, as coach and trainer, was there to help. In a motel room on a wrestling trip, Hastert had Individual A remove his underwear, the Chicago Tribune reported, and massaged him.
“We are not so sure the episode qualifies as misconduct, especially for a coach and trainer forty-two years ago,” Hastert’s attorneys wrote. “Regardless of the characterization, Dennis deeply regrets that the episode occurred.”
Following “the episode,” Hastert massaged the young man’s back and “slept in the same bed,” according to the Tribune.
Friends and politicians sent 60 letter asking for leniency for Hastert because he was Bible study leader and all around nice guy.
From the NY Times article we learn about one such letter from Tom DeLay.
Tom DeLay, who served as the House majority whip and then the House majority leader under Hastert, was one of those writers. He told the judge that he, Hastert and a pastor would routinely read and discuss the Bible together in lunchtime sessions on Capitol Hill.
DeLay said:
“We held each other accountable and we studied God’s word,” wrote DeLay, later adding: “He is a good man that loves the Lord. He gets his integrity and values from Him. He doesn’t deserve what he is going through.”
Doesn’t deserve it because he prays in what DeLay, also a born-again Christian, considers the right way, to the right divinity? Perhaps that will earn Hastert the most important forgiveness of all. But it’s no free pass for bringing pain into the lives of children he was paid to instruct and inspire.
The testimonials that Hastert rounded up from prominent Republicans demonstrate more than mercy and pity. They affirm the degree to which pacts rather than principle govern partisan politics today. His past is precisely the kind that Republicans in particular express such unyielding horror toward. But in rallying to his aid, they dismissed it as a blip in a life of selfless “public service,” to cite a phrase that his lawyer leaned on.
After Hastert's conviction, calls are coming from all sectors to change the statute of limitations on child sex abuse.
Leaders in T4G and The Gospel Coalition showed their profound ignorance when they said that the SGM lawsuit was thrown out due to a lack of evidence. Like Hastert's case, the SGM case was thrown out due to the statute of limitations. However, the lawsuit is still in play and look for more to come in the near future.
Needless to say, TWW, along with other groups such as SNAP, calls for the removal of the statutes of limitation for child sex abuse. I wonder if T4G and The Gospel Coalition would also agree to this…..
The Chicago Tribune reports the Illinois Attorney General is advocating for a eliminating the statute of limitation in child sex abuse cases.
Yet in a way, the judge pointed out, Hastert got off easy.
"Because the statute of limitations for your child molestation ran out many years ago, you can't be charged for that," Durkin said during sentencing. "And I can't sentence you as a child molester. It's not what you were charged with, it's not what you've pled guilty to, and any sentence I give you today will pale in comparison to what you would have faced in state court."
…Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan wants the General Assembly to remove the statute of limitations for sex crimes against a child. That limit is already much longer than for other crimes, but Madigan said the unique circumstances of child sex abuse justifies the change.
"To say to someone we aren't even going to look at this because it happened long ago, all that does is potentially allow the perpetrator to remain in our society," she said. "We know that people who do this are recidivists. Failing to identify these (abusers) only increases the number of people whose lives are disrupted or destroyed."
Wheaton College, in the typical "We Are Praying" statements, appears to put the victim second after their former benefactor and famed alumnus.
In 2015 Wheaton College issued a statement acknowledging Hastert's Indictment. Hastert graduated from Wheaton and had a building named after him. Why do these types of statements always mention praying for the perp first and the victims second? Fame matters…
It is with sadness and shock that the Wheaton College community learned of the indictment by the U.S. Department of Justice of alumnus and former speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives J. Dennis Hastert, and of his resignation from the Board of Advisors of the J. Dennis Hastert Center for Economics, Government, and Public Policy at Wheaton College.
In light of the charges and allegations that have emerged, the College has re-designated the Center as the Wheaton College Center for Economics, Government, and Public Policy at this time.
…We commit ourselves to pray for all involved, including Speaker Hastert, his family, and those who may have been harmed by any inappropriate behavior,
Closing thoughts:
1. Christian politicians are no more the answer to America's problems than non-Christian politicians There is no reason to expect that Christians will act any different than a nonChristians. The same goes for pastors. There is no reason to expect that they will not commit crimes or abuse people.
2. Child sex abuse is rampant in our culture, government and in today's self described evangelical, Reformed, and mainline churches.
3. Any leader, Christian or otherwise, who write letters to plead for leniency for child molesters are a big part of the problem. They are guilty of allowing this heinous crime to be downgraded to a simple *mistake.* Jesus spoke out harshly about those who harm children. This applies to those who support the perps as well.
4. Hastert's defense team "argued that he should be sentenced to just probation as the humiliation over the sexual misconduct allegations is punishment enough. " Humiliation at the end of life does not match up to the pain and suffering of the victims who were molested and raped by this pervert. Hastert is a pedophile who used his position of trust to molest children. He is NOT a great man who made a simple mistake. Read the story of one victim as retold by his sister here. Hastert lived a life of power, prestige and wealth. His victims, on the other hand, have lived a life colored by the pain of betrayal.
5. Why does this story remind me of Al Mohler, Kevin De Young, and all of the gospel boys who have defended the ministry of CJ Mahaney in spite of story after story involving child sex abuse coverup. These men are no different than the politicians of DC.
Of course, Al Mohler chose to pontificate about Denny Hastert. Why Hastert and not SGM? Perhaps Hastert should have given $200,000 to SBTS?
“Even as the Scripture reminds us that we must be certain our sin will find us out, Dennis Hastert, the former Republican Speaker of the House of Representatives, faced a judge yesterday to be sentenced to 15 months in prison for what was a conviction based in a cover-up financially of sexual misdeeds and misconduct that had taken place when he was a high school wrestling coach back during the 1970s,” Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said in a podcast news briefing April 28.
This is what he says about those who give money and call him the smartest man on the planet.
“It would be very easy to get up here and just say C.J. Mahaney is going to speak for us, but I think faithfulness in my responsibility this afternoon in introducing him is to say we know he has demonstrated endurance in the face of an incredible trial, and he has been a model of endurance for us,” Mohler said in his introduction to Mahaney’s message on suffering taken form the Book of Job.
Please join TWW in praying for the victims of the Dennis Hastert as well as the victims of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
First
I drove by my old PDI/SGM church today as I was in the area. I cried out to God for justice for Happymom, Pam Palmer, Noah and all the others.Too many for me to keep straight. God knows all of the poor souls hurt by them. I also looked at the great building my Twenty year of tithes helped build, no more as I refuse to do without to build up people's careers and building. May they all fall down! I also prayed for Deb and Dee as I know they need it.
Regarding:
That’s fine and everything, but even the Bible says (in the New Testament) to put the Bible down at times and do what it says.
Jesus also asked people why they called him “Lord” but do not follow his teachings. Meaning, it’s all well and good to read the Bible but kind of useless if you’re not doing what it says and living it out.
Thanks for tying all the issues together in one place. Important post. Hoping not to sidetrack this, but I will say my personal objections against Trump are to do with apparent narcissism and a cult following that I find disturbing. That said, freedom permits people to disagree, and worldly kingdoms are indeed not the hill to die on. Furthermore, I wholeheartedly agree with this post that Christian or not is not the issue when it comes to child sex abuse. And the current hard heartedness from so many towards the many people affected by abuse is a further abuse by community that is disgraceful. I’m glad to see culture shifting on this, but it’s sad to see so many Christians being part of the problem rather than the solution.
Very disappointing to see such a weak statement from Wheaton. Maybe they will follow it up with a more caring response for the victims now that Hastert has confessed?
As you’ve pointed out here, Denny Hastert couldn’t be convicted of his greater crimes due to the statute of limitations. I find it interesting to note who is fighting a bill in New York that would remove the statute of limitations on these sorts of crimes. The only site I’ve seen this reported on contains content that some may find offensive, but I think it’s relevant and important enough to share despite the potential for offense.
http://www.joemygod.com/2016/05/02/new-york-catholic-league-runs-full-page-ad-opposing-bill-to-lift-statute-of-limitations-on-sexual-abuse/
@ R2:
Quicker than TGC blocking those who support the SGM victims.
@ dee:
I also thank you for putting this together in one post, and agreed, this is the hill to die on: the abuse of children by so-called Christian leaders. The fact that the Christian establishment runs away with their tails between their legs is shameful. The fact that TWW puts this out there when the establishment is silent makes it seem like Deb and Dee are the church’s version of Woodward and Bernstein.
I want to thank “Individual D” for stepping up at Hastert’s sentencing last week and allowing his name to become known as he read his victim impact statement. I think his willingness to step forward put a human face on what happened with Hastert’s victims led the judge to give Hastert 15 months, which was more than the six months requested by the prosecution.
Here’s more information about “Individual D,” who talked at length to a Chicago newspaper. The reporters write: “He told the Tribune he knows of other potential victims who have not come forward.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-dennis-hastert-individual-d-met-20160427-story.html
Ironically, “Individual A,” the person Hastert originally claimed was extorting him, is now suing Hastert for the remainder of the hush money, which is rather different than “Individual D.”
I’d also note that Wheaton has said *nothing* after it became clear why Hastert had been structuring withdrawals. Wheaton has been called out for this in various places.
Josh wrote:
The Catholic church did the same thing in Maine several years ago. The bill, which was defeated, would have enabled me to pursue justice.
I swore off politics a half dozen years ago, generally I was depressed at the blind partisanship by supporters of politicians and the associated propagandists in the press. I missed the old style reporters, the type where I didn’t know what their politics were. The pattern had become your guy could do no wrong and the other guy was a schmuck, regardless. I was the proverbial political junkie but I found being well informed provided lots of frustration yet allowed few opportunities to influence anyone, so I finally checked out.
When I came here to TWW over a year ago I was struck by the similar culture of corruption within the gospel glitterati, those associated with them, and those who whitewashed it. It was so similar to what I had seen of political leaders and their partisans. The case with Tony Jones associates suddenly becoming mute when it was their guy drove home the similarity for me.
I no longer track the political scene but in this case I am guessing Hastert’s case won’t follow the typical as he holds no office and will have few defenders. I am sure there still will be ample displays of hypocrisy on both sides of the aisle coupled with little interest by political leaders in victims other than as tools to be used and then discarded.
@ Anon
The Catholic League is not the Catholic Church. It’s an organization run by a dude named Donohue, and a lot of Catholics have issues with it. Anybody can put “Catholic” in his/her private organization’s name. Or Facebook handle or whatever. Just sayin’.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
Indeed. The C. League does not speak for the majority of US Catholics. (Afaik, that is.)
Anon wrote:
Perps rely on these time limits as obstacles of justice; the crimes involve victims so young. Time favors the perp. Imagine, a child is pliable, unaware, and violated. How many years will it take for the child to become cognizant of what really happened to them? Then get the vocabulary and courage and advocacy to do something about it? The perp hopes never. In the meantime, the perp moves on and grooms younger victims. Serial pedophilia. As perpetrators have aged into even their nineties, they have admitted to violating perhaps thousands of children within their reach over decades. Their own aging process is not a deterrent. Old, old men still go after children.
Another obstacle to justice is the church funded by perps, providing character witness and support. The church is by and large complicit as an advocate of the perpetrators – the moneyed businessmen who give big bucks to a needy and greedy clergy. Each side holds the other in place. Power, sex, and money, the perfect trifecta.
Another element is those in power or government. Case in point, the Franklin Scandal of Omaha involving US government right to the Oval Office. “If it’s true, then there are significant elements in America’s ruling class that are depraved beyond Caligula’s dreams,” writes Charles M. Young in Still Evil after All These Years: The Franklin Scandal and Pedophilia in High Places. http://bit.ly/1NiQ3dc
numo wrote:
This is SO true. The Church MUST face the full truth and take full responsibility for any lapses in the past where predators were shielded and shuffled around instead of turned over for prosecution. I don’t think the Catholic League does speak for the Vatican on this, and I’m pretty sure they don’t speak for the United States Council of Catholic Bishops. REASON: the nature of child sexual abuse is such that the damage to people lasts far into the future, and the suffering is unending. If the Church can’t put an end to the suffering of these victims, then it must not back any opposition to seek out and hold accountable all individuals responsible for that suffering, including the predators AND those clergy and authorities in the Church who shielded and protected those predators . . . those enablers are as guilty as the perpetrators, and they deserve to be prosecuted to the full and punished, even with law suits awarding financial recompense for the victims to help pay for counseling and psychiatric care.
Catholic people love their Church. That is WHY they would never go along the C. League. We want the evil to be rooted out root and branch, and we want justice for the innocent and we cannot count the cost of that justice. The victims deserve the full help and compassion of the Church militant. And, if our Catholic people have a say (and they do), this will be accomplished in the Name of Christ Whom we serve.
I love jimmy Kimmel he just nailed it! When ever anyone pontificates about abuse there needs to be a team of investigaters waiting lol. Not a funny post by any means but you have to chuckle at the truth that is being said. These bafoons who wrote letters on his behalf makes me sick. They made him sound like Jesus and one said “I know his heart he doesn’t deserve to be prosecuted”. Ugh can it get anymore worse than that?
@ Anon:
I am so sorry the bill was defeated. It is as if society is telling adult victims their childhood does not matter- get over it.
I wish churches would step up to the stand and join in to advocate for childhood victims on their behalf when these SoL hearings are held.
@ Bill M:
I have a similar path. At one point I came to realize in the stratosphere and what we perceive as political enemies, actually aren’t, as they want the status quo of power to remain in their realm. And we end up playing right into that for both sides.
The irony of the Gospel Glitterati publicly despising Trump is that they are the same men who defended and promoted Driscoll. If they had put as much energy into publicly despising the same things about Driscoll perhaps we would not have so many Acts 29 churches.
Evidently such characteristics are not a problem when it comes to a fellow celebrity pastor.
@ mirele:
I am going to do an update on Wheaton today. 2 Board members did something despicable.
JYJames wrote:
Well said!
@ Bill M:
Wait till you see what Wheaton board members did. I will update this afternoon.
Anon wrote:
I am so sorry for the sex abuse you have suffered and the spiritual abuse done by the Roman Catholic “leaders” behind that.
Lydia wrote:
“ONE OF US!
ONE OF US!
GOOBLE! GOBBLE!
ONE OF US!”
— Todd Browning, Freaks
marquis wrote:
Sound like?
“He is a good man that loves the Lord. He gets his integrity and values from Him. He doesn’t deserve what he is going through.”
People need to quit saying things like this.
I want to thank you for mentioning all the legislation on this issue he was involved with. I wonder how much was going with the flow for show, and how much was an obsession with something that he himself knew about personally?
Bill M wrote:
It is similar (our guy/their guy). I wonder if this isn’t a consequence of the churches getting so involved in politics a number of years ago. They’ve all but stopped acting like pastors and started acting like politicians. And treating each other like they are Team Calvin or Team Complementaranismismists instead of Team Jesus. This is a worrisome shift.
Really good post, Dee.
Reminds me of that oldie but goodie: How do you know when a politician is lying? His mouth is moving.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
sorry, they presented him as if he was guilt free because he did a weekly bible study as if that erases the evil he perpetrated against children. This man never experienced true repentance or sorrow for causing great harm. I don’t see anywhere where he ever takes responsibility for his crime. Taking responsibility means you repent and turn yourself in to the authorities and take whatever punishment is divied out to you. He needs to acknowledge every child he has ever abused. He shouldn’t have to wait to be caught before people give letters on his behalf. If he was truly a follower of Christ he would have turned himself in. Are these men serious? He had the gall to claim Christ, have weekly bible studies and accountability partners knowing he never answered for the crimes he committed against children? He should have apologized to each and everyone of his victims , to his family, and those who he offended in regards to the abuse. He would be showing Christ in his life by asking for help and acknowledging that he should never be around children given what he has done. Anyone who commits this type of act should want to have accountability by being completely transparent. After this man has done all that I would say there’s some inward changes going on there that would be Christ like. He did accountability groups by saying he started weekly bible studies and that some how erases past crimes against children! Sorry until he dealt with that honestly I could care less if it had been fifty years ago! These people speaking on his behalf have placed him in a category as if he has done nothing wrong making him as innocent as Christ. I hope that makes sense.
Lea wrote:
Integrity and values?
Harrrummmph! Pedophilia, child abuse and lies don’t com from “Him”!
For Al Mohler I suspect it’s simple: Hastert has confessed to personally molesting boys (ditto for Sandusky), whereas Mahaney is apparently guilty of no such thing. His good friend C.J. may possibly have screwed up here and there, but he meant well. At least he’s not Nate Morales…right Al?
@ NJ:
This. If you notice they only talk about these situations where the perp has confessed.
Mohler has the power to cya. Right After the panel exonerated Mahaney as fit for Ministry (including Trueman) Mohler had a story planted in the local daily online where he made sure he was quoted as saying Mahaney was the strong leader of SGM and the bloggers just don’t like strong leaders. See, important Godly men exonerated him.
That story was gone/deleted about a year later when the story changed in the media into SGM protecting pedophiles. Never mind the abuse stories had been on the Survivor blogs much longer.
Mohler couldn’t very well go around talking about Mahaney being the strong leader of SGM and claiming at the same time he knew nothing about protecting pedophiles and is innocent. Now we are to believe Mahaney knew nothing about any of it.
JYJames wrote:
Yep
@ Anon:
Anon, I am so terribly sorry that the Catholic “church” (I can’t call what those scummy individuals did to you, standing AGAINST justice for you, a church) did to you and every other person seeking truth and justice. I stand and applaud you for speaking out. Any time you need someone to come sit beside you in court, I’m there.
PS. I’m not talking about my dear brothers and sisters who identify as Catholic but the utter evil scum who fought the bill for justice.
@ Bill M:
good analysis, me thinks…
@ Lydia:
or SGM.
The letters written on behalf of hastert by political leaders…claiming his Christianity should keep him from consequences…are the words of fools…fools on the public record…
This institutional defense is so utterly disgusting…
Go deebs!!! Thank you for having the courage to stand up and be counted…love this blog…love this community….
Lydia wrote:
If he can get away with it, he can. Same with Mark Dever cloaking sheltering Mahaney at Capitol Hill while Jonathan “Keys” Leeman and company talk about how essential church discipline is for the pewpeons who must submit to their elders. Mahaney gets to hide behind Dever’s apron when he might have been subject to discipline (or maybe just uncomfortable questions) at SGM.
When it looks like it is all about double standards for the Glitterati and the pewpeons, it just might be about double standards for the Glitterati and the pewpeons. Whether it is about church or politics, if it looks like it is about power/money/status instead of serving, it is probably about power/money/status instead of serving. Especially when there is a pattern of it. So when I hear “Servant Leader” I know they really mean “Ruler.”
These are not sins; they are crimes.
These are not mistakes; they are crimes.
Sins are forgiven.
Mistakes are corrected.
Crimes are punished.
These twisted people use the victims’ personalities to imply they brought these crimes upon themselves, then use the criminals’ attributes to excuse their predatory behavior.
Both the criminals and their enablers are beyond contempt!
Amen
Gram3 wrote:
dee wrote:
Why am I starting to wonder about what sort of small group / Shepherding activity might have been going on at Wheaton circa late sixties-early seventies and onward? If this was going on, then what other list of names might pertain?
Gothard was involved in Wheaton circa sixties right? Would Hastert be a first or second hand Gothard product?
As for Hastert, I knew it was paedophile related. But sentencing came as a shock that it was serial.
There should be no statute of limitations on child abuse!
I’ve noticed an interesting psychological behavior among leaders who are eventually exposed for moral failure. Hastert demonized pedophiles as a Congressman … Ted Haggard preached boldly against homosexuality … Darrin Patrick spoke on the beauty of complementarity.
Maze wrote:
Amen
Gram3 wrote:
When it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck (and is covered in feathers and has a bill)…
Now, it so happens that the Scottish Parliamentary elections are this week. Keith Brown is a decent laddie, but since none of you have even heard of the Ochil constituency, much less are eligible to vote therein, the point is moot!
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Good to know. Thanks.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Argh! Many apologies. That should of course have read: since none of you HAS even heard of the Ochil constituency. I of all people should have remembered the obvious and eternal truth that “none” is singular.
😳
I am planning on calling Wheaton College to see if they are willing to make a statement. I will hold on the post about this until tomorrow.
Uncle Dad wrote:
Well said.
RE: Hasterts:
Just like our popular present day figure of speech:
…It’s impossible to make this stuff up…
Uncle Dad wrote:
And crimes are not covered up because they said the magic words
Max wrote:
It’s called “Attempts to self-treat in secret” mixed with “I have Problem X, so everyone else must have The Same Problem”.
A secular example was Rush Limbaugh, Number-one Fan of the War on Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction.
With public figures (especially Christian public figures/Guardians of Morality) it’s even worse; they don’t dare show their weakness before others. So they try to treat themselves alone and in secret. (Like the old saw about how a lot of psychiatrists/psychologists are themselves crazy/disturbed and went into psych to cure themselves without anyone knowing.)
Lydia wrote:
Oceania has always been at peace with Eurasia, Comrades.
Uncle Dad wrote:
“Mistakes Were Made…”
— William J “Slick Willie” Clinton
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was talking to someone the other day about some very strident advice that he got from a pastor that assumed he was having a problem with X…later found out that pastor was having a problem with that very thing. Shocker!
Muff Potter wrote:
Or the version my friends use (engage anxious pearl-clutching):
Ya can’t make this #$%& up! 😮
Per my earlier post, I’m glad to hear that there are [many?] Catholics who aren’t in favor of this position of the “Catholic League.” The League seems to have more support when it’s attacking LGBT people, so I didn’t know how it’d be viewed in terms of this position. I’m glad to hear that at least in this case, it doesn’t seem to have widespread support (not implying that I’m in favor of its other positions, but this one needs the most serious opposition).
NJ wrote:
FYI Sandusky maintains his innocence. His wife Dottie, in a 2014 post-conviction interview with Matt Lauer, said victims came forward because “they saw money” and that Jerry never abused any boys – he just happened to come from an era where grown men showered with boys.
People like Hastert are fond of the masquerade. They’re adept at aligning themselves with people and causes that make them appear noble, heroic, even righteous. Who would ever guess Dennis Haskert was serving on the wrong side? “Look, he’s serving the public, and advocating against child sex abuse. He must be a good person!”
As for Mohler and Mahaney? I think Mahaney saw he could align himself with Mohler’s doctrines, and that in doing so, Mohler wouldn’t doubt Mahaney’s virtue and veracity.
When Mahaney refers to himself as an athlete, what I think he’s really saying is that he’s a player.
dee wrote:
Soon, I hope! The suspense is killing me.
@ Paula Rice:
Just tragic. I’m sure this woman believes what she says. When will that horrible man free her of living in the delusion that people are persecuting her husband unfairly? So sad.
Paula Rice wrote:
My, my, and now with some of the proposed new laws grown men can shower with the girls. Delightful.
Paula, that doesn’t surprise me. Dottie probably has a deep need to believe her husband innocent, or she’d have some kind of breakdown.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Mahaney really had picked up some reformed doctrine by the 90s, I think it was. He has metamorphosed into one of an elite circle of celebrity pastors, a fraternity of leadership ushering in the Second Reformation. Who among them would force such an amazingly, stupendously talented preacher to step aside? 😉
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Whether we’re singular or plural, I imagine most of us haven’t heard of it. Sorry! : )
Okrapod, don’t even get me started on changes in bathroom laws. I’m glad I don’t shop in certain establishments. (God help us parents with kids in public schools.)
” A number of CJ Mahaney apologists claim that since things happened a couple of decades ago, it is impossible as well as irrelevant to advocate for justice in this situation.”
++++++++
if they were to sit in a room and hear from each victim, and their parent(s), i wonder if they would remain heartless ignoramuses. (ignorami?)
Did anyone else notice that John Piper’s new book was announced today on the Desiring God website? The title is Living in the Light: Money, Sex, and Power.
http://www.desiringgod.org/books/living-in-the-light
Stunned wrote:
The woman is choosing to turn a deaf ear and a blind eye. Defending his innocence is proof of her guilt. Classic enabler.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/enabler
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Most Americans are waking up to the idea of a “football” league called the Premier League and that a 5000/1 shot won the title. And there is hardly any one of us who can pronounce “Leicester City” correctly.
mirele wrote:
Oh, I was all over that. I’m $50,000 dollars richer today! But “Lester” winning the EPL is a truly mind-boggling accomplishment. That’s like the Cleveland Browns winning the Super Bowl.
@ elastigirl:
Reminds me of the group that was paid big money to hear all the painful complaints of many ex SGMers. They sat and cried with the victims yet wrote a positive report on SGM. Mind boggling. Heart breaking. Soul quaking.
NJ wrote:
Carl Trueman.
Even Mahaney knows this. https://vimeo.com/41783507 (see 00:45-00:48)
Same with me!
@ Patty in Massachusetts:
In regard to Wheaton, I heard about this the other day and am 2 years behind…apparently missed it when it came out. Speaking of someone hiding in broad daylinght, Donald Ratcliff, a child psychology professor at Wheaton, arrested two years ago for possession of child pornography:
http://www.wheaton.edu/Students/The-Record/Archives/Spring-2014/February-28-2014/Former-Wheaton-Professor-Sentenced-for-Possessing-Child-Pornography
Not really any connection to Hastert, persay, but Wheaton has been in the news a bit the past few years and has taken some public relations hits. Hastert, Ratcliff, the firing of the woman hired to deal with LGBTQ issues on campus (seemed like a set up to fail type situation for her), the recent spectacle and firing of the political science female professor for allying with Muslims in a Facebook post. There’s probably more I am not thinking about, remembering.
mirele wrote:
I watched the first game and they showed the pronunciation on the tv screen as “les-ter”.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I always get that mixed up, is it Pacifica or Eurasia, it is so hard to keep up.
*Donald Ratcliff: I guess that would be he was found out/arrested in 2012 then consequently fired from Wheaton, but the sentencing came in 2014?
All of these things – particularly in the church – RCC to Protestant – SGM to TGC – make me a bit paranoid. I wonder how many people are hiding in their professions and behind their causes and will never be found out, brought to justice? I fear it is more than we realize. How many victims are there, really? How many lives quietly living in shattered pieces as a result of these powerful men (and sometimes women, usually acting as enablers, but can also be the predator.)
https://baptistnews.com/2016/04/28/mohler-says-hastert-conviction-a-morality-tale/
From the article”
“Wednesday’s sentencing of former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert in a hush money case involving sexual abuse serves as a lesson for all, says a Southern Baptist seminary president criticized two weeks ago for introducing a speaker publicly identified with similar allegations at a preaching conference.”
mirele wrote:
Somehow, it makes me think of Worcestershire sauce …. ?????
A question for those that may be more knowledgeable on this story than I. The state of Illinois passed and signed into law removing the statute of limitations for child sexual abuse back in August 8, 2013. Did this have an effect on victims coming forward? I would presume it had a significant impact on the outcome of the charges brought against Hastert. It also informs me why CLC members were recently testifying against similar legislation in Maryland a few months ago.
Without such legislation I have some doubts whether victims would come forward when there is no court of law that will vindicate their claims. Also without the conviction I tend to think Hastert might have largely survived the revelations.
Paula Rice wrote:
Well that didn’t happen.
@ Bridget:
I’d say it’s in the works.
Nancy2 wrote:
and so Mohler defines himself publicly, as the ‘donations’ given to his seminary preceded Mohler’s support for a man who enabled predators in his midst . . .
The temptation for Mohler must have been great for him to cave, but then to speak out about Hastert’s situation as a ‘lesson to us all’ (?) By doing this, does Mohler not include himself as someone who learned the hard way, or is it still that he cannot see the blatant hypocrisy of his words,
or can it be that in pointing the finger at Hastert, Mohler is playing at comparing himself favorably to a ‘greater sinner’ . . . I don’t get it. Strange beyond words. Greed takes over and given the chance, it wipes out more of integrity than a person can control, I suppose.
Max wrote:
It is said that satan attacks those who are filled with pride and point the finger at ‘those other sinners’; but when the finger-pointing IS one of those ‘other sinners’ and continues to hide his own guilt, we can see the abject misery of a life that has no humility before the Lord. It’s like looking into what hell must be like for those who have tormented others and tried to hide from God their own nakedness. A little humility might have saved these men from an unspeakable existence lived behind a pretense. Humility not only is awarded with grace, it helps strengthen integrity.
To correct my earlier ruminations, the Illinois law removing the statute of limitations on sexual abuse of minors was not retroactive. Thus it may not have been an influence in this case. It does still make my head spin that churches show up to testify against such legislation.
Stunned wrote:
Never. But she has ample power to free herself. I have zero compassion for her. Any fool could see the truth.
I am not a fan of the Bayly boys but one of them has some good points in the article below about Hastert and Delay:
http://baylyblog.com/blog/2016/04/gracemen-and-lawmen#disqus_thread
This is a link to what Delay actually wrote:
http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wls/documents/2016/042216-wls-tom-delay-letter.pdf
I believe that Delay is a member of Second Baptist Houston. Their Main switchboard number is (713) 465-3408.
These are some other links:
http://religionnews.com/2016/04/30/wheaton-students-blast-christian-colleges-silence-over-hastert-abuse-confession/
http://religionnews.com/2016/05/02/wheaton-tarnishes-itself-hastert/
http://www.washingtonian.com/2016/04/11/three-friends-of-dennis-hastert-come-to-his-defense/
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-dennis-hastert-letters-met-20160422-story.html
http://chicago.suntimes.com/politics/wife-son-tom-delay-ex-cia-chief-write-judge-praising-hastert/
NJ wrote:
Or maybe she’s just as big a sociopath as he is.
“Nations are born in the hearts of poets, they prosper and die in the hands of politicians.”
Honestly, I believe the “church” is in the hands of politicians. It’s just another political realm, they are parallel worlds.
Paula Rice wrote:
5 years in the works? You must have inside knowledge the rest of us aren’t privy to.
siteseer wrote:
I agree that a great part of the church is very political.
@ Paula Rice:
Am I wrong that CT came forward in the past to proclaim CJ worthy, in response to many of our claims?
JYJames wrote:
THIS. IS. SO. TRUE.
I will fully admit that I’m something of a conspiracy theorist…and I briefly studied the Illuminati and how they’ve reached into rarified areas of the government, turning them unbelievably dark.
What I’ve read will haunt me to the day I die.
Regarding child physical and sexual abuse: people who defend or coddle such activity **aren’t Christian.**
They’re wolf enablers!
On my above post: predators **in general** seek positions of power: scum really does float to the top. The higher the position of authority, the less possible it is to bring perps to justice; that’s a fact. So if perps can become pastors or bishops of megachurches, or senators…or high-ranking intelligence community leaders (shudder), the better for them.
The lesson is this: not only does power corrupt, the corrupt seek power. **No wonder** Jesus went after most of the Pharisees and warned His disciples–and the rest of us by extension–against lording it over others.
@ Julie Canny:
Power and window dressing respectability are protection for the scum. People are respectful and awed by titles and what they perceive as success. Rick Warren used to be fond of reminding us of this all the time: success keeps succeeding.
Amen….I have seen this in action many times…
Julie Canny wrote:
Bridget wrote:
I’m choosing to look ahead optimistically, in hopes that his voice will be joined by a growing chorus of voices from individuals in positions of leadership.
Trueman is uniquely positioned because of his past involvement with Mahaney, and his call for his ouster was significant.
I do think it’s important that Trueman address his past role in the AoR, but at this point, it doesn’t look as though he will. I think Trueman is being very measured, and that he hasn’t reached the same conclusion about Mahaney that I, for example, have.
I guess it’s difficult for some to identify Mahaney for who he is, but that’s what needs to happen. The men that lead T4G need to turn their interest in church discipline on one of their own, but apparently they’re all too compromised and/or corrupt to do so.
This must become more than having “concerns” about Mahaney. He has been allowed to hide, in plain sight, for too long. It would be incredibly humbling for the leaders who have given Mahaney a stage to recognize and repent of their error, and for not doing more to defend the sheep. But, I’d say, if the men of T4G had oil in their lamps, they won’t see it replenished anytime soon if they fail to act (2 Cor 11:13-15; Ro 16:17-18; Matt 7:15).
Paula Rice wrote:
Even the Sandusky’s adopted son came forward and said that Sandusky sexually abused him!
Paula Rice wrote:
I am not familiar with this. Is there a link to something where Trueman publicly uses Mahaney’s name and calls for him to be ousted as you have implied calling it ‘significant’?
@ Stunned:
I’ve stated I don’t believe he understood what he was dealing with at the time. Moreover, Pruitt stated here that they didnt believe Detwiler’s documents contained a smoking gun, and whether you agree with them there or not, I don’t think they’re lying.
It would appear part of the problem stems from their belief Detwiler’s document dump lacked protocol. I think Detwiler went public after his attempts to follow protocol failed. Be that as it may, the protocols we should follow in dealing with someone like Mahaney are that first, he needs to be silenced (Titus 1:11).
https://bible.org/seriespage/4-instruction-concerning-false-teachers-church-titus-110-16
@ Nancy2:
I can confirm that for complex reasons I can’t remember, involving invasions & such, that we do indeed pronoun it ‘Less-ter’ & ‘Wuss-ter-sher’.
I’m sure Ick Blubneck knows more.
*pronounce….
“Denny Hastert’s Conviction: DC Politicians, T4G and The Gospel Coalition Look the Same When It Comes to Child Sex Abuse” is the title of the post, which is pretty wide and encompassing. I would appreciate an explanation for the decision to moderate me without public explanation. Additionally, you have my email address.
Ken F wrote:
A review on the book:
“John Piper equips us to fight temptation by firing up our affections for the glory of God in Jesus Christ. He wisely shows us not only what to avoid, but how to rightly enjoy money, sex, and power as part of a life conformed to Christ through the gospel. I expect to give this book to many friends and fellow combatants in this spiritual war.” –Russell Moore, President, Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, Southern Baptist Convention”
“… how to rightly enjoy money, sex, and power as part of life conformed to Christ …”
Huh??????????????????
Lydia wrote:
I’ve about decided trueman is under a gag order on this one…
Beakerj wrote:
Is that Wuss like Wooss or like Wuhss?
Christiane wrote:
Amen! It is cheap grace that claims humility, when you walk in pride. Pride always cometh before a fall because it is not covered by genuine Grace. We have too many Christian politicians and church celebrities who are in pulpits, claiming grace but not really walking in it.
@ okrapod:
Like the 2nd. I can see us all walking around trying it 🙂
@ Paula Rice:
GBTC will slap me upside the head but I am going to explain this to you.
1. You were moderated by our filter because you discussed moderation.
2. You were moderated a second time because of a word you used which was picked up by the filter.
I would ask that you please not discuss moderation any further and not make assumption as to why a comment was moderated. You were wrong in this instance.
Now, since I mentioned moderation, this comment will go into moderation and I will now go and approve my comment. See, even I get moderated.
okrapod wrote:
It’s the same short vowel-sound as in the word “book”.
While we’re here, and just in case it comes up:
“Gloucester” is pronounced “gloster”
“Leominster” = “Lemster”
“London” = “lundun”
“Edinburgh” = “eddinbruh” (or “enbruh” locally, cf “gubmnt” for “government”)
In fact anywhere ending in -borough (and there are quite a few) is pronounced …-bruh
Likewise, in towns ending in -wick, the “w” is silent. E.g. Keswick = “kezzick”
Groundskeeper Willie (fae the Simpsons) is consistently stated to be Scottish. The origin of his quasi-Russian accent has never, to my knowledge, been revealed.
IHTIH
dee wrote:
On which rocks founder all our discussions of nuclear power, too.
On a less frivolous note now, this from the post above:
I know next to nothing about Wheaton College, so what specifically they’re praying here, and with what desires and motives, I don’t know. It’s good that they’re praying, certainly; and the case reminds me of an occasion when Paul prayed for an un-named man in Corinth who was in unrepentant sexual sin – and, it seems, very popular with the local church too. Paul instructed the Corinthian church to “hand this man over to satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord“.
This does not seem to be any kind of exercise in spite or vindictiveness; Paul was trying to protect both the church and the man himself. It seems that this worked, too, because in his next surviving letter Paul urged them to welcome the man back.
To what degree Mr Hastert is now repentant, I can’t tell. But it seems likely that he was quite unrepentant for many years while he was calling for harsh punitive measures without mercy for others who were doing what it turns out he was doing. Again, I am assuming that the quote in the post (“But it is equally important to stop those predators before they strike, to put repeat child molesters into jail for the rest of their lives…“) is accurate.
Incidentally, I don’t know whether the CEO of the christian business from which Lesley and I were excommunicated a while back in Glasgow handed us over to satan or not. If so, it didn’t work. There’s no denying that the loss of our friends both hurt and damaged us; but in every other respect, an avalanche of blessing fell on us during that period in our lives, and I have no doubt that it was from God’s hand.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Wait, you were excommunicated from a business??? I don’t know how that works. I have yet to run into these excommunicators, but that may have something to do with the fact that I have as an adult never joined a church. I’m sort of close now. But leery.
As for the calling for harsh measures for child molesters, I can kind of see that two ways. One is knowing a lot about something because it’s a problem you personally have so trying to stop it. If he had stopped abusing at that point, I could maybe understand it. (and I haven’t heard any more recent allegations than his tenure in the school, so I hope that he had).
But obviously he didn’t assume any punishment for himself, so it is more likely to be the deflection route…making a big stand about something to distract people from the fact that you are guilty, guilty, guilty.
Lea wrote:
… er, well, OK, perhaps I was being a little esoteric there. It was actually a church congregation (at least, that was the idea), and the man I consider the CEO called himself “senior elder”, “apostle”, and similar. But I refer to these kinds of enterprise as businesses because, to all intents and purposes, they are just that: a kind of ecosystem set up to support a motivational speaking business.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ah. Maybe too early for me to catch this but strange things seem to be happening in Christendom! So I thought who knows 🙂 Perhaps I should have coffee before commenting…
That is terrible, truly. I am so confused by where churches have gone from my childhood…
ION:
I have officially entered the 2016 Dumyat Hill Race, starting and finishing at Stirling University via the summit of Dumyat, a prominent local hill overlooking the town.
I’ve been looking at last year’s results and the winner of my category (male over-40) seems to’ve done quite a fast time. Well, I’m 48, so I thought it would be fairer to compare myself with the next category (male over-50) instead. Unfortunately, there wasn’t much comfort to be had there either. But hey – it’ll be fun! It’s next Wednesday evening, if emdy wants to come over and have a good laugh.
dee wrote:
Nope.
Please EVERYONE. Check your egos at the door.
ALL BLOGS are SPAM targets. Go ahead. Set one up and discuss the trees in your back yard. You can do it for free. Don’t do any moderation. And soon you’ll get comments selling soap, porn, landscaping, links back to malware sites, whatever. If you do nothing Bing and Google will start flagging your site as “bad”. Go ahead. I dare you.
So we moderate based on lots of factors. 10 to 50 comments get caught EVERY DAY. And maybe .1% of those moderated are not SPAM are disallowed by us due to content. Maybe.
Now look at this post topic. And guess how many triggers are going to be in the typical legit comments.
So everyone just get over it.
GBTC
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
What? Are you missing something here? Too long in the frozen North or something? You ‘are’ whoever you imagine yourself to be. It has nothing to do with biological age or for that matter biological anything. Muscle tone, cardiac status, belly fat-none of that. You can think yourself to be 90 or 19 and nobody can use any amount of evidence to the contrary to stop you from doing that; because thinking it makes it a reality.
During my short time as a psych resident we had a name for that sort of thinking, but now that we know that a person is actually many persons (there was a name for that also) then we no longer are chained by reason or evidence and have become free. In fact, I insist right on that I am 39, based on the old adage that you are as old as you think you are, which is even an older adage than the new ones that we are developing.
So, I say to you, be free. Compete with the old guys and denounce anybody who tells you nay.
@ Stunned:
I think they sold their soul (probably not ultimately) to something/someone (involving money, power, and self-interest).
i wonder if it weighs on them, tortures them to some degree.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
No offense, Nick.
I am of Scott, Irish, Swiss-German, and Cherokee descent. At this moment, I am so glad that my European ancestors drifted into Kaintuck Territory and took a notion to stay, Sometimes I have enough trouble with our Americanized version of the English language!
Stunned wrote:
They knew who was signing their paycheck.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Didn’t Monty Python have a whole routine about that? Like the real-life “Featherstonehaugh, pronounced ‘Fanshaw'” except exaggerated to the point of Ridiculous?
dee wrote:
Another Unpronounceable…
“GBTC, pronounced ‘gib-tick’…”
Julie Canny wrote:
“Not so much that power tends to corrupt as that power attracts the already-corrupt and the easily-corruptible.”
— Frank Herbert, author of Dune
Bill M wrote:
I remember Boz T saying that in all his years as a prosecutor specializing in child sexual abuse, he had NEVER seen a church take the side of the child rape victim — always “RALLY ROUND THE PEDO, BOYS!”
Christiane wrote:
“I THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOORD, THAT *I* AM NOTHING LIKE THAT FILTHY POLITICIAN OVER THERE…”
Paula Rice wrote:
Or counting Fantasy Football as “athletics”…
(Begging the question, why is Fantasy Football as an RPG not only respectable but Godly while Dungeons & Dragons is SAY-TANN-IC?)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
How would you pronounce Pittsburgh?
Lydia wrote:
I’ve never seen Trueman name Mahaney. Trueman speaks in generalities.
Paula Rice wrote:
Detailer did not go public. He went to the pastors in SGM after he wqs getting nowhere with SGM leadership. Someone in the pastor group made the documents public.
Bridget wrote:
“Detwiler” gotta love autocorrect as it summed up the man well 🙂
Hey Paula, thanks for that earlier video. Man, that C.J. is sure a touchy-feely guy.
While I appreciated Trueman’s measured arguments, I still can’t get past Mahaney’s statement that small-church pastors struggling with envy should cultivate gratitude, honor, and prayers for the big dogs (my paraphrase).
Bridget wrote:
While never explaining his part in exonerating Mahaney for Ministry or bothering to reach out to the victims because, as you know, a professional minister can only take evidence from other pastors. But now he is hailed as a hero for speaking in measured generalities. He has his cake and eat it too.
I have seen too many of these type of fence-sitters on something this important come back to bite. Not a great advertisement for a male-dominated denomination.
@ NJ:
Mahaney needs to be quiet. He has no business doing what he’s doing, and that remark you referenced is just one of tens of thousands of reasons why. He’s not only out of his league, he’s not even in The League.
@ NJ:
NJ, Carl Trueman appeared to stiffen when CJ hugged him. He also seemed only politely amused at the beginning, when Mahaney was clowning around, joking about being there “to die.”
Way to joke around about dying, Mr. Cross-Centered Life.
What a charlatan.
Exactly. 🙁
@ NJ:
Bridget wrote:
Plausible Deniability in case everything goes sour.
Like running on Messiah Politics, just speak in generalities that could apply win-or-lose and NEVER get pinned down on anything specific.
If Ceej Wins, Trueman (whatta name) can suck up to him and say I Was Right All Along.
If Ceej Loses, Trueman ditches him and says I Was Right All Along.
Win-Win Situation.
NJ wrote:
And so HUMBLE(TM)!
All His liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before Him say so!
I always love how Americans try to pronounce my old school district which was South Gloucestershire.
Nancy2 wrote:
@ dee:
Actually, it happened before that with my comment to Stunned on Wed May 04, 2016 at 07:29 AM in which I didn’t use the M word, as you can see. That raised a question, which I addressed in the proceeding comment in which I including the M word. I can understand the filter catching that and it not being approved. But it’s all good. I get what’s going on.
@ Bridget:
Although Brent ‘Detailer’ (haha) has obviously not shied away from publicly building his case against Mahaney, based on those documents.
Regardless of Detwiler’s knowledge or involvement in that, I maintain the documents proved extremely useful in getting the ball rolling. Now we just need real Pastors/Athletes to formally team up and make this a Slam Dunk.
@ elastigirl:
I can’t imagine it not bugging them. But there are tons of things I’ve come across since delving into this darkness that I was incapable of imaging.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, you may already know this, but according to linguistic experts, what we consider the Southern American accent is actually the closest thing we have on earth to how Brits spoke in the 1700’s. I find that absolutely fascinating. The British rulers who were commanding the red coats were giving orders with a South Carolina twang. Can’t help but smile at that.
ERrr. make that drawl, not twang
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And one more court worker learned to never trust or follow Christ. What a testimony to the nations. 🙁
Paula Rice wrote:
Why aren’t victims enough? Maybe we should rethink this caste system we have created that only pastors have credibility in these matters. Dangerous thinking.
Lydia wrote:
This is true, too! And many perps are narcississtic enough to want all the adulation…they often think they’re better than other people. Not always, but it’s often one of their signatures…
Lydia wrote:
Amen.
I’m pretty sure that’s what Jesus did, too. He didn’t take sides with victims. He was pretty sure to play it safe so as not to offend. *insert the world’s largest eye roll here*
I’ll go ahead and insert a quote to often quoted that there should be no need of it anymore. Tragically, some people still don’t live by it.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”
― Desmond Tutu
And a few lesser quoted ones:
“The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.”
― Dante Alighieri
“Washing one’s hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral. ”
― Paulo Freire
Max wrote:
My sainted mother (Yinzer by birth, suburbanite by the grace of the GI Bill) used to joke about the correct pronunciation being “PEEETS-booo-rrraugggghhhh!” with lots of trilling and gagging and an exclamation point.
She’s, uh, the only person who ever said that. 🙂
Paula Rice wrote:
I know a boatload of theologians. I’d say that’s the way the majority of them respond to being hugged in public. 😉
Paula Rice wrote:
Trueman is a Brit, right? Even so, Mahaney is a giggly, touchy feely, fawning man and most who operate with more decorum would be uncomfortable.
Your big “Trueman leadership moment” is just not there. It really wound up being “celebrity pastor was never Our intention”. It turned out to be quite twisted.
Melody wrote:
Glo-sti-shir?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Raymond Luxury-Yacht (whose surname was pronounced “throatwobbler mangrove”) was a recurring character.
Max wrote:
“Pits-berg”. Pittsburgh is an americanish name, so its intrinsic pronunciation is different. There’s a Scottish charity called “SAMH” (Scottish Association for Mental Health) which I always want to pronounce “sav” (to rhyme with “have”) because, in scots gaelic, mh is pronounced as a v. I think they call themselves “sam-aitch”, though.
@ Stunned:
“I know a boatload of theologians”
+++++++++
you do?? what’s your background?
I only know….. hmm…
Lydia wrote:
They should be enough. That’s obvious part of the big problem here. Mahaney will only be brought down by leaders calling for his ouster because he doesn’t recognize, or acknowledge, anyone else as having any authority over him. Which, of course, is why, children didn’t matter. What’s always mattered to Mahaney is protecting who’s at the top.
@ Melody:
Gloster! Right?
Lydia wrote:
OK maybe not. I’m just not to sit here and tear it down. It wasn’t enough for you, I get that. I’m not saying it was all it needed to be,eirher. It wasn’t perfect. But I am saying it was a step in the right direction. I’d prefer to focus on the baby and not the bathwater.
Stunned wrote:
That’s quite a good collective noun. Rather like an utmost-confidence of ex-football-managers.
Paula Rice wrote:
Especially Himself.
@ Nancy2:
I’m struggling to understand why Piper’s sophistry is so readily accepted by the masses. Not only does he contradict scripture, he continually contradicts himself. I could write pages on his self-contradictory statements. I don’t understand why he he seems to get a pass by the so many Protestant leaders.
But in the bigger picture, there is a connection between his sophistry and the kind of abuses detailed in this website. But I have net yet found a way to boil it down into something easily explainable, probably because I have not yet been able to piece it all together yet. Part of it has to do with a very narrow view of God’s glory. He paints God as the ultimate egoist. It’s certainly true that all should be done for the glory of God, but his emphasis has something unclean about it. What bothers me more is the focus on “Christian hedonism” as if everything boils down to using a good pleasure to defeat a bad pleasure. Certainly there is more to the abundant life then mere pleasures. His arguments are tempting, but there is something unclean about the emphasis on pleasure.
In the same way that abusive leaders always seem to find a way around indictment, the theology they espouse always seems to find a way around decisive challenge. Both the leaders and their theology seems to have a slippery quality. How does defeat such slipperiness? I don’t believe that most of the Calvinist leaders have evil intent, but they seem to believe the sophistry.
I’ll close with a quote from George MacDonald: “Good souls many will one day be horrified at the things they now believe of God.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Most definitely. In reality Mahaney is rebellious, and refuses to subject himself to anyone’s authority or rule. Larry Tomczak disagreed with Mahaney and ended up blackmailed. SGM Pastors who had issues or concerns were ‘degifted.’ Members who raised issues were accused of pride and insubordination. Families of victims were discouraged from going to law enforcement, and admonished to forgive the perpetrators. All of this was designed to protect Mr. Big Wig, err, I mean Mr. Big No-Wig.
I’ll never forget being a student in London and telling my host family I wanted to take the train to Eden-burgh, ha ha. The mom was like, where?? I pointed it out on a map, and they had a good laugh. Never got to Glasgow, but I enjoyed a weekend in Edinburgh. Oh well, at least I didn’t try to head for that one crazy place in Wales.
Stunned wrote:
You may be right. Maybe Trueman responded to Mahaney’s hug and awkward pronouncement of him being” a good, good friend” in the way he did because he’s British. Then again, I think Trueman had Mahaney in view when he spoke on Celebrity Pastors. Mahaney, by cozying up to Trueman, and then joking around about the topic, was working to preemptively deflect any legitimate criticism of him. It was a manipulative move on Mahaney’s part, and I think Trueman knew Mahaney was attempting to diminish him, which is what Mahaney always does in response to real or imagined criticism and/or its source. So, I think in this particular instance, there may have been more to Trueman’s body language than the fact he’s a Brit. I think he was serious about the subject matter he thereafter presented, which had the effect of putting Mahaney in a bad light. I’m sure this put Trueman in Mahaney’s crosshairs – his cross-centered crosshairs, of course.
Paula, if you were ever in the same outdoor space near C.J. and his acolytes, you’d have to wear sunglasses to protect yourself from the glare.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Make mine fried bolony with melted cheese!
@ NJ:
I’ve shared lots of indoor and outdoor spaces with the man. One in particular comes to mind now, when CJ was playing basketball at CLC, and sat down on the floor near me, hunched over, completely exhausted, lacking the energy to make it through a whole game.
Yes, he’s dazzling.
Stunned wrote:
But we speak much more s…l….o….w….l….y. Kentucky has a Glasgow, as well as a London, and KY was heavily settled by Scott’s. I live just a few miles from the “Highland Lick” road.
Paula Rice wrote:
So both are carrying out a deceptive campaign and we are going to interpret body language and vague measured words like a decoder ring?
These are grown men?
Reminds me of the tactics of mega church leaders. It is just deception with plausible deniability. Some folks love these sorts of games– tracking and discussing the nuances while taking score.
The way to end this silliness is for an actual grown up to state his position specifically and with courage.
@ Nancy2:
And Paris. :o)
Paula Rice wrote:
They are brought down when the money dries up and there are not enough followers. Getting leaders who are in the same tribe to bring each other down is a lost cause.
I have a dream that one day all the guru followers will discover Jesus Christ and develop their gifts for the benefit of the Body and not a few guru wallets. :o)
Nancy2, my dad called me today to ask if I knew about the highland games in Glasgow KY. I found the website; it’s not too terribly far from Bowling Green and will happen the first weekend of June. I think he hopes we’ll take the kids to something like that. I wish we could do the Grandfather Mountain games in North Carolina, but that would be a huge camping trip for us.
NJ wrote:
Tell your dad, if he goes, to swing by the National Corvette Museum in Bowling Green. It’s just off I-65!
@ elastigirl:
A lot of religious relatives. Charades is a nightmare when everyone decides to write down names of theological books.
@ Nancy2:
Sorry, not if he goes, if you go.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
So how would one in the know pronounce Glasgow?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Did you hear about the 100-year-old woman who set a record for (I think) the 100-yard dash? And then she did a few pushups afterward, just to show she was not worn out.
@ Paula Rice:
You may be right. I hope you are! Over many years in SGM I heard Mahaney talk about his different very good friends. I believed him for a long time but after a bit I began to wonder how someone who was his “best friend” a few years earlier appeared to be “out” and never mentioned again. After a while I began to sadly wonder what friendship meant to him. (This was long before I was aware of all that was going on here.)
@ refugee:
I want to take a shot at this one!
Glaz-go ?
I find the Glaswegian accent the hardest English speaking accent there is. (They speak English there, right?) Others think it’s the Yorkshire, but for me it’s the little old ladies from Glasgow. Shoooe-Wee I’m lost half the time.
Paula Rice wrote:
Actually, this may be the only thing Mahaney gets right. We’re not supposed to be subjecting ourselves to another’s rule, unless that other is Jesus of Nazareth. That notion of “Let me rule over you because God told me I’m your daddy” is what makes people like CJ, Driscoll, and the whole motley crew such dangers to the Christian faith. We’re to be in mutual submission, leaders being recognized for being older, solid, dependable people willing to lay down their lives for others rather than using them to make their own lights shine brighter–and leading entirely, exclusively, only BY EXAMPLE.
Anyone
Lydia wrote:
It’s called “smarmy”, “unctuous”. Essentially, “lying flatterer”.
@ Lydia:
“They are brought down when the money dries up and there are not enough followers. Getting leaders who are in the same tribe to bring each other down is a lost cause.
I have a dream that one day all the guru followers will discover Jesus Christ and develop their gifts for the benefit of the Body and not a few guru wallets. :o)+++++++++++++++++
I think a movement of ekkelesia with money removed from the equation could take.
no salaries. no real estate overhead. no fancy toys. no gimmicks required. of course no hierarchy. the main focus is the community/communities beyond the group. whatever in-house focusses, such as prayer, healing, expression through music, education, etc. is for the purpose of making a difference in the community beyond. nothing stays in-house (so to speak); it goes out.
I have to think that something like this would be infinitely more attractive to a huge segment of the population than the self-serving money-social-church machines. I don’t see how the shallowness of the latter would stand a chance in maintaining their draw and hold on people.
Lydia wrote:
Both? That’s not what I’m saying. How familiar are you with either of these men?
NJ wrote:
Sparkling in the sunlight like EDWARD… (sparkle sparkle)?
@ Paula Rice:
I am speaking of public Behavior/words. Trueman has had ample opportunity to be specific about his part in exonerating mahaney. I just do not view Trueman and as some champion of victims like you do.
@ Law Prof:
Bingo!
@ elastigirl:
We can dream :o). I am to the point where I don’t see any point in attempting to reform the “institutions’. Life is too short! Although I am grateful when some genuinely do.
Lydia wrote:
Oh Lydia, your bite is simply that of a gadfly.
@ Paula Rice:
Why,thank you! :o)
Ken F wrote:
I found your comment interesting. I think the connection with abuse is almost always going to be where authoritarian structures come into play. Because people who seek that kind of power are going to abuse it. But I am interested in the theology intersect with authoritarian abuses…
Law Prof wrote:
“ingratiating”, “obsequious”, “sycophantic” …. slimy!
Lydia wrote:
Neither do I, Lydia. To me, the real champions and heroes will always be the victims themselves who found the courage to tell their stories, with people like Dee and Deb following close behind. As for Carl Trueman and his pals… they’re running in the right direction, but running late. Like Paula, I try to be optimistic about the initial step they’ve taken to bring Mahaney down. But I wish they’d taken a much firmer step, and done so long, long before this.
My own opinion: They’re still detoxing from the Authoritah-flavored Kool-aid. Trueman might be a little farther along than Pruitt, based on what little I’ve seen from them. I think they’re both coming to a gradual, reluctant awareness of the Neo-Reformed monster they’ve helped to feed. But neither of them seems quite willing to let go of the idea that “some animals are more equal than others”.
At least they seem willing to discard the notion proposed by the fools defending Hastert — that a “life of service” and a superficial commitment to the Bible outweighs the commission of crimes against the most vulnerable.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
That’s my read (trueman is further than Pruitt) but I don’t think either are yet able to give up on their little group or to see the system as bad rather than individuals.
At this point my (as they say for fiction) ‘head cannon’ is that trueman is under gag order and can’t directly address what he did in giving cj a pass years ago. I don’t know if that’s true or not, though. It certainly shouldn’t stop anyone else from getting into it, though!
(First comment, though fairly regular reader.)
You wrote, “A number of CJ Mahaney apologists claim that since things happened a couple of decades ago, it is impossible as well as irrelevant to advocate for justice in this situation.” The apologists assume something that is simply not true: that C. J. Mahaney is somehow indispensable to Christ’s church. That is not how the NT works. C. J. has gifts and skills that he could put to use in the private sector (and I’m sure many of his apologists could help him find employment) in order to support his family, so he won’t be penniless. Indeed, I heard him “preach” at a pastors’ conference years ago and he acted like a stand-up comedian (Piper gently rebuked him for that). He can start with open mic night in Louisville somewhere. Surely the man who craves “true greatness” should know that he can only find it in “Humility,” right?
Geoff S. wrote:
CJ Mahaney’s career has depended upon you believing that he is one of the called and chosen. He will fight tooth and nail against any attempt to remove him from a position he feels elected to. He ‘resigned’ from being a pastor, but in a bold move he reinstated himself, moving to Louisville to start a church so that’d he’d be properly positioned in his ‘gifting’ as a pastor. I think he saw his days as president of SGM were numbered. Being the ‘president’ had afforded him speaking engagements and a degree of notoriety. What would could he use to continue his charade if he were a) no longer a pastor and b) no longer a president? Voila! Just like that he’d transform himself into a pastor! A pastor? But, isn’t this the same guy who as a ‘pastor’ fleeced the sheep, was charged with various expressions of pride and unentreatibility, did not report abuse to the police, fled accountability, and has no distinguishable marks of the Holy Spirit operating in and through his life? But, now, he’s a Pastor? What a joke. Yes, I’d agree, he’s more cut out for the job of a stand-up comedian!
@ Geoff S.:
“C. J. has gifts and skills that he could put to use in the private sector (and I’m sure many of his apologists could help him find employment) in order to support his family, so he won’t be penniless”
+++++++++++
I appreciated your comment. have to say, i don’t give a flying fick whether or not he can support his family. nor should anyone else. it’s his responsibility, his deal.
but I imagine you agree with me.
@ elastigirl:
elastigirl wrote:
@ Geoff S.:
He would find an audience somewhere just as Driscoll is doing now. :o)
Stunned wrote:
Correct!
Most of the population of England considers the Glaswegian accent notoriously difficult. Eg:
Eh beg mahn; hooya daen? = Greetings, friend; are you well?
Thuz hee-haw akid dae aboo’aht = I was powerless to affect the outcome
Ahss pure pashn’it doon, aye? = It is raining very hard, is it not?
Af yer hate the f****n english clap yer hands… (sung to the tune of “She’ll be coming round the mountain when she comes”) = Well played, England; you beat us fair and square!
Scots comedian Stanley Baxter did a series of sketches entitled “Parliamo Glasgow” – well worth a look!
http://www.youtube.com/parliamo_glasgow
Geoff S. wrote:
Welcome aboard! And a fair point too, btw. There’s a fine line between preaching and stand-up in some circles…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ah. I was just wondering because apparently a couple of US teens made a video about how they were going to go to Glasgow for two weeks on some sort of mission trip, cleaning up neighborhoods or some such, and caught a lot of flack (think insults and worse). They ended up deleting their video. One of the things mentioned in the comments was that they pronounced the name of the city wrong, which got me wondering.
@ refugee:
Ah. I bet I found the mission trip they were talking about. The organization’s name is HOPE. Is it true that there are only 20 churchgoing people in Glasgow? (/tongue in cheek)
June to August International Programs (non-U.S. and Canada):
GLASGOW, SCOTLAND (CLOSED – SITE IS NOW FULL):
Dates: June 15 to 29
Audience: teens and campus
Price: $1,120 plus flight
Minimum age requirement: 18 and over for U.S. and Canada citizens unless accompanied by a chaperone; 15 and over for other nationalities.
Come spend two weeks in historic, ruggedly beautiful Scotland where your personal impact will be keenly felt in both the physical and spiritual renovation of the nation’s largest city, Glasgow!
Planted firmly with courage and faith in a working-class urban area of two million, the Glasgow church is only 20 disciples, with a huge vision to reach out to the over 100,000 university students in the city and establish a thriving, sustainable student ministry. Come help inspire the church as we share our faith and study the Bible with students at the main international universities in Glasgow. Come help revitalize the city as we work in one of the poorest neighborhoods in the nation, partnering with a local community organization to help transform unused urban space for a local school. We’ll learn construction skills shoulder to shoulder with local volunteers. We’ll be trained in daily, practical Bible classes by Evangelist/Teacher/Missionary Andy Fleming. We’ll spend a weekend exploring the medieval Old City of Edinburgh and hiking along the coast high above the Firth of Forth. We’ll be welcomed into the Scottish disciples’ homes, moved by the unforgettable sound of bagpipes and dancing till we drop at a traditional Gaelic cèilidh. Come spend your strength where you will know you have made a difference: Glasgow HYC 2016!
@ refugee:
This is an interesting definition of “the Glasgow church”. It’s interesting to note that it was planted with courage and faith 15 years ago, so I wonder, do they have everything they need for a huge vision?
NJ wrote:
Well, you say “crazy”, but at least Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is spelt phonetically (the Welsh language always is). As long as you remember that “ai” rhymes with “sky” rather than “hay” – so that “Llanfair” rhymes with “spire” – and that the Welsh double-L is a bit odd.
And yes, I did type that from memory.
@ Geoff S.:
…waving hello, Geoff!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Has anyone ever heard the theory that Welsh & Gaelic are spelled the way they are to mess with English minds?
“Af yer hate the f****n english clap yer hands…”
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Pittsburg, land of Yinzers and hip-hop traffic lights.
Every summer I attend an event in Pittsburgh. The audio clip on the traffic signal crossing Penn Ave in front of the Convention Center’s main entrance is unique. Instead of the usual “WALK” or “WAIT”, it goes like this in a hip-hop rhythm:
“Walk sign is on for
(beat)
Penn Avenue,
(beat)
Penn Avenue,
(beat) (beat)
Walk sign is on for
(beat)
Penn Avenue,
(beat)
Penn Avenue,
(beat) (beat)”
I am not making that up. As far as I know, it’s the world’s only Hip-Hop Traffic Light.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Scary memory, there. Amazing.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You crack me up!
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“but at least Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is spelt phonetically (the Welsh language always is). As long as you remember that “ai” rhymes with “sky” rather than “hay” – so that “Llanfair” rhymes with “spire” – and that the Welsh double-L is a bit odd.”
+++++++++++++++++++
phonetic? with a double-L that is ‘a bit odd’, no vowels after w’s, and one instance of a triple-L?
can you spell it phonetically?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Majorly impressive
@ Nick Bulbeck:
🙂
Law Prof wrote:
You’re very kind, Law Prof, but it may also be evidence that I should get out and do something useful!
Christiane wrote:
Amen, Christiane.
Julie Canny wrote:
I agree.
elastigirl wrote:
The one thing I know about Welsh is that “w” IS a vowel.
Not that that helps, but it is a bit more than what you started out with, dontchaknow? 😉