“Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.”-A quote from that other Calvin.
I frankly think this whole weird male thing started with Mark Driscoll. You surely remember this nonsense.
“In Revelation, Jesus is a pride-fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is the guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.”
The gospel™ boys fell all over themselves trying to imitate Driscoll on the man thing. Then, they went further down the road in promoting Duck Dynasty and wrote a gazillion posts at The Gospel™ Coalition website. Some of them took to growing the beards just like some of them attempt to look like Mahaney by shaving their heads. This is redneck theology, especially when they wear camo to preach and give guns away at conferences.
They have attempted to convince us that they have a corner of gender theology market because they are Calvinistas and it has been definnitively proven by Calvinistas that they are the most theologically adept of all mankind since they can quote John Calvin and prove he had nothing to do with the murder of Michael Servetus. They even seem to channel John Calvin in how some of them speak to those of us Christians who do not agree with their take on certain theological points.
Calvin treated his critics with contempt, calling them “pigs,” “asses,” “riffraff,” “dogs,” “idiots,” and “stinking beasts.” In this vein, Calvin said this of the great Anabaptist leader, Menno Simons: “Nothing could be prouder, nothing more impudent than this donkey.”(8)
[8] Philip Schaff’s goes into this with sources in French, etc. in his History of the Christian Church, Volume VIII, p. 594ff. Schaff cites his sources. For the quote on Menno Simons, see The Secret of the Strength by Peter Hoover, p. 63; Calvin, IV, 176; HRE XII, 592.
I may not be able to quote the Institutes with wild abandon but I am perfectly capable of knowing what is baloney theology is when I see it. I do know my Bible, especially from a big picture, contextual perspective.
Which brings me to my next point.
Holy Testosterone defeated Satan says Owen Strachan.
Well, darn! I always thought it was the divinity of Jesus, who lived a sinless life and was crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, and ascended, that defeated Satan. That's what the Bible seems to indicate. So, where do we find mention of this holy testosterone in the Bible? Shouldn't Strachan know where it says this in the Bible since he is the head of the Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood and claims to know the Bible? Why didn't he quote chapter and verse?
Let me get Owen's argument straight. If we could have extracted pure testosterone from Jesus, could we have used this in spiritual warfare? Does this mean that testosterone is part of the full armor of God? Ephesians seems to have left this out.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit,which is the word of God. (Eph 6:10-18) NIV Bible Gateway
Should there have been a second half of verse 17? You know, inject yourself with lots of testosterone to crush Satan?
Apparently those who have cojones over at CBMW are jumping on the testosterone bandwagon. According to another CBMW post that was written this month, 5 Key Ways to Cultivating Biblical Manhood in Your Church by CBMW's Jason Allen:
Through this, the church needs to recover biblical manhood, Christian masculinity—what we might think of as sanctified testosterone.
TWW Prediction: This will become the new buzz word, following on the heals of winsome, gospel, Biblical and slander.
People were quite confused by Strachan's original tweet.
Strachan appears to play the "I'm smarter than you, idiot" game in his response to the confusion caused by his tweet. He calls his thinking on the matter "rather obvious" because Jesus was a man, not some genderless floozy.
More discussion
And hilarity ensued. (I choked on my coffee today.)
(If you didn't get it, focus on the word *penal.*)
Was redemption really all about the testosterone of Jesus?
This is an important observation. Jesus had some estrogen as well as testosterone. How do we know for sure that it wasn't the small amount of estrogen in his body that caused the defeat of Satan? Is it written somewhere in the Bible? I wonder if Strachan and BFFs did any reading on the subject or the endocrine system.
According to Testosterone and Estrogen Balance in Men
Testosterone is for men, and estrogen is for women, right? For the most part yes, but there is estrogen found in all men, and women do need small amounts of testosterone. There is, however, a growing need to understand the effects of estrogen in men. Like all hormones, estrogen needs to be kept in balance in both men and women. Chronic health conditions are more likely to occur in men as a result of estrogen levels becoming too high.
Testosterone and estrogen are actually very closely related in the body. A look at their chemical structure reveals only subtle differences. Yet, the differences of the effects of these two hormones on the body are substantial. Testosterone affects nearly every cell in the male body. It improves muscle mass and bone density and will also have a positive affect on the heart, brain and blood vessels. Estrogen is actually made from the circulating testosterone in the body by an enzyme called aromatase. As men age, they tend to make increasing levels of estrogen with decreased production of testosterone. Estrogen can be made in the liver, muscle and brain, as well as the fat cells.
In fact, every last cell in the body of Jesus has his male genetic code. One could just as easily conjecture that it was his pancreas or his bunion that defeated Satan.
Unfortunately, Strachan appears to be treading into Joseph Smith territory.
“…it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God…These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.”
Jesus has two natures and this is the divine mystery. He is fully man and fully God. It was the divine nature of God that allowed Jesus to live a sinless life, not his testosterone. Jesus was not born with a sin nature unlike the rest of us.
Where does it say any of this in Scripture?
This commenter seem to have a better grasp of the subject than Strachan and she has a lower testosterone level than he does.
What is the deal behind this incessant clamoring to make men so different than women that causes them to write this weird stuff?
It seems to me that these men are so insecure with their masculinity that they must attempt to read into Scripture what is not there. Why? Did these guys get beat up when they were little kids and are now trying pretend that they are bad*** dudes? We may be different in our biology, but men and women experience similar longings and concerns. CBMW appears to be trying to convince us that men and women are so different that we cannot experience similar feelings.
Here is an example.
In the CBMW post, there is an effort to show the distinction between men and women by feelings.
Men long for a higher calling. They need a higher purpose. Our hearts leap within us when we see exhibitions of courage, when we hear tales of heroism, when we witness valiant sacrifice. Give men a grander vision for their life, one marked by service, leadership, and devotion to great and noble ends in the Kingdom of Christ.
Do women not wish a grander vision for their life. Do they not want to strive towards a higher calling? Should not the life of women be marked by service? Do women have no interest in devoting their lives to doing great things for Christ?
The answer is obvious. Both Strachan and Allen get an *F* for their poor understanding of basic biology and an inability to provide us with Biblical texts which back up their assertions. This was a *complementarian fail* and some might say it was an impotent argument.
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First?
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First!
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Oh man! I’ve never been close to first! LOL!
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These people are delusional idiots, and why anyone gives them the time of day, much less fame and money and adulation, is a real mystery to me.
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I spent too much time laughing at the tweet about Satan hating estrogen. Phooey.
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@ Steve:
As swift as the SBC sniffing out female pastor.
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@ Sallie Borrink:
You are a female and are second where you belong.
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@ dee:
LOL.
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roebuck wrote:
Total mystery. Well said.
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Dee,
I remember when Jason Allen was installed as president of Midwestern Seminary – another Mohler appointee.
Here’s his bio on the CBMW website (2016 pre-conference info):
http://cbmw.org/2016-preconference/
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Penal substitution *snicker, snicker*
I know we’re all calling BS on all this gender roleness is next to godliness (or maleness is next to godliness), but I smell an underlying motive: $$$. With books, conferences, etc. on this nonsense, it all goes back to the money. Basically, the CBMW is peddling spiritual snake oil.
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“In fact, every last cell in the body of Jesus has his male genetic code. One could just as easily conjecture that it was his pancreas or his bunion that defeated Satan.”
Next time I will put my Earl Grey down before reading!
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And people still believe they can get a theological education and an SBC Seminary.
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I have heard a lot of things in my life but a “gender-neutral Jesus” is a new one.
Owen and Jason Allen are literally promoting a phallic cult. It is as bizzaro world as it gets.
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Hmm.. is holy testosterone like holy water?? I can order some testosterone from a chemical supply company… Do you think I can get them to bless it??
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CBMW cannot have it both ways:
first, they promote ‘holy testosterone’ in Christ as defeating Satan (as though it was the MALENESS that did the trick for a He-Man Christ)
secondly, they advocate a teaching called the Eternal Subordination of the Son wherein Christ is seen as a role model for females because He is supposed to model ‘subordination’ to His Father for wives
seems to me, these men have bitten off more than they can chew here . . . all this man-made theology cannot hold together in an internal examination for consistency in their ‘doctrines’ . . . they screwed up on consistency and used Our Lord to model for men AND for women
I know I’m not the first one to see this, because it is obvious that they have cooked up a lot of hooey to justify some pretty un-Christ-like treatment of women and some extremely over-the-top machismo, which at times is humorous, and most of time, just pitiful to watch
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Robert Bly had a Men’s Movement going back in the day, that evolved into the Urban Caveman Movement, and more recently, BroScience (or BS for short).
“… attempting to recover masculine role models from (mostly medieval and Euro-centric) mythology, and lacking anything resembling modern science, empirical evidence or common sense.” [wikipedia]
“Lacking theological or Biblical basis” could be added to “lacking anything resembling modern science, empirical evidence or common sense”, in the case of the dear church folk who are off on this tangent.
That is one good thing about the Jim Elliot types who were actually running around in dangerous places for the Gospel back in the day. They didn’t question their masculinity. They were not drumming up pseudo-macho adventure on the backs of their church, women, family or society to “prove” they were “real men”.
There’s a recent photo of Jimmy Carter building homes with Habitat for Humanity, to the last inch of his life, even as he deals with cancer and aging. Carter does not appear insecure about his masculinity, or life in general. He just does stuff that matters and appears content in doing so – living life to the fullest and ready to enter eternity when that happens.
Some might borrow a page from Carter’s or Jim Elliot’s playbook and feel better about themselves without all the brouhaha.
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I can’t stop laughing long enough to offer an intelligent comment, but suffice it for now to say I hope some complementarians read your post, Dee, as surely they will see how ridiculous they sound in their quest for “biblical machismo!”
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Great post! Their rhetoric does reek of insecurity, and also disastisfaction. The first-shall-be-last life Jesus called us all to is often unglamorous and self-denying. Complementarianism gives them an elevated position that puffs up their egos making the hard work of following Christ more appealing to their dude bro sensibilities.
Jonathan Merritt recently interviewed the guy who wrote Wild at Heart. I believe that awful book was as big an influence as Driscoll.
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@ Christiane:
What an excellent comment! Can't have it both ways is right!
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dee wrote:
Are you saying her abundance of estrogen made her slow on the draw? 🙂
Speaking of recent complementarian fails:
The Failure of Complementarian Manhood
http://www.missioalliance.org/failure-complementarian-manhood/
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Lydia wrote:
But wait, there’s more (and Keller is a complementarian, if I’m not mistaken):
Keller, Sex, and Eternal Submission Doctrine: Summing up the Sexualization of the Trinity
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2015/09/tim-keller-sex-and-eternal-submission.html
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I thought these tweets were recent tweets. Most of them are dated from August of 2014. I thought they had been tweeted during the T4G conference.
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@ dee:
Good one, Dee!
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@ Bridget:
I think someone recently called attention to them. I had a similar reaction when I saw the older dates on the Tweets. Perhaps no one was paying any attention to Strachan back in 2014? We obviously weren't.
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Christiane wrote:
Interesting observation.
On the one hand, depending on who their audience and particular argument is, complementarians depict Jesus as a meek and mild, poetry-writing, easily weeps at pretty sunsets, wussy guy who is all subservient to the father – to convince women this is woman’s role, and hey, see how awesome it is to be subservient, after all, Jesus is.
But then they (Driscoll, Strachan, etc) turn around and cast Jesus as this tough- as- nails, behind-kicking, tough, manly He-Man Hollywood action star when they are making appeals to men.
I do think the Bible shows Jesus had a full range of qualities (both gentle and tough), but the thing is, both men and women are to copy all those traits… it’s not just the gentle traits for women, and the tough traits for men.
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White male entitlement is on the way out. It has been for a long time. These guys are fighting it tooth and nail. Jesus was the epitome of masculinity by laying down His life for all who would accept Him. These guys obviously didn’t learn from Him. Women were important to Jesus. I am ashamed of today’s church. It is a pale imitation of what Christ died for.
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Dee, of course Owen and the rest of the CBMW haven’t read up on the endocrine system… Like psychology, it’s not mentioned in the Bible.
I understand but still do not comprehend Owen’s original tweet, however. Do these guys even think before they tweet?
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Leslie wrote:
I agree. With some men, it’s apparently created confusion or a malaise.
As a result, I see a lot of conservative women over the past several years writing more and more books and articles
1. blaming feminism and
2a. telling women to voluntarily make themselves doormats to make men feel better and
2b. telling single women, “if you want to marry, you must become a dependent Damsel in Distress because men don’t want strong women”
(I am a conservative but don’t agree with those conservatives on any of that.)
I posted this the other day on the last thread, but this complementarian guy says he finds strong, competent women threatening, and he needs women to lay all that down to be weak, so he can rescue them and feel needed:
An Open Letter To Rey
http://warhornmedia.com/2016/03/07/an-open-letter-to-rey-from-star-wars/
It astounds me that insecure men (and some conservative women) think the way to help men get over societal shifts is for women to lower themselves.
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I thought I’d heard it all but clearly there is much for me to learn.
Sanctified testosterone….what a bunch of absolute nutters. In fact what a bunch of lunatics. They really really think this is who Jesus is. Can I opine that God is giving such people over to great delusion to believe a lie? Can’t make sense of it otherwise.
Sanctified testosterone….whatever next?
Someone pass the popcorn please….
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It took more than a mere male to crush Satan it took the Son of the Most High God. The higher these men become in their own estimation the darker their theology becomes. We are to become more like Jesus. I don't think having testosterone injections will make that happen.
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As I commented on Twitter in a few places, because I have high testosterone, can I now partake in this sanctification and hairiness, I mean holiness?!
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That tweet on
penilepenal substitution had me laughing the hardest I’ve laughed all day!Ever the contrarian, I can’t help but wonder where the fine people with androgen insensitivity syndrome fit into this complementarian binary. They may look like women, but they don’t lack for testosterone. I’d like to see Owen put that one in his pipe and smoke it. 😮
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I’d wager the teachings of purity culture have screwed up young Christian men a lot more than modern liberal influences in secular culture.
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Twenty years ago my stepfather bemoaned the fact that now it is not just men competing with each other but also with women.@ Daisy:
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Dee wrote “I always thought it was the divinity of Jesus, who lived a sinless life and was crucified, dead, buried, resurrected, and ascended, that defeated Satan.”
This the Gospel you won’t hear preached in New Calvinist churches. They claim to be Christ-Followers (not Believers), yet they talk very little about the power of the Cross and the living Christ.
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Holy testosterone?! Good grief, these New Calvinists don’t know the basics! It is the blood of Jesus that had/has power, not His testosterone!
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Dee wrote “It seems to me that these men are so insecure with their masculinity that they must attempt to read into Scripture what is not there. Why? Did these guys get beat up when they were little kids and are now trying pretend that they are bad*** dudes?”
I’ve been thinking along this line for a while. A couple of the SBC-YRR church planters I know in my area are wimpy little guys, who were most likely bullied, had domineering mamas, dateless in high school, etc. New Calvinism gives them a bully pulpit and illegitimate authority to go with it so they can flex what few muscles they have and put women in their place. Macho, potty-mouth Driscoll set them free and complementarian charlatans perpetuate the madness.
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If these fools are going to rely on testosterone when going up against Satan then they are in for a rude awakening. And to think they have elevated themselves up above us rubes.
Pride causes a lot of embarrassment but also seems to prevent the poor culprit from detecting their humiliation.
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Bill M wrote:
The Devil will say “Boo” and they will scream like women! (No offense to TWW’s female readers – y’all are the folks to share spiritual foxholes with! Warriors who contend for the faith!)
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Wowza!!!! Testosterone!!!!! That almost sounds like a new prophetic revelatory addition we may be missing from our bible!!! Totally inappropriate and demeaning to Christ’s sacrifice….these guys are out of control…
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Victorious wrote:
Yeah, and to think that when Strachan posted that line, thousands of YRR’s said “Wow! What an intelligent comment!”, rather than laugh.
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Max wrote:
Bravo, Max!
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I’m feeling pretty confident that Owen Strachan tweeted this tweet prior to an upcoming new release of CBMW’s version of the Bible or something, in which the books of Ruth & Esther are removed and replaced with 1st Testosterone & 2nd Testosterone. I’m pretty sure he’s juiced and just pumping us up!
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BSJYJames wrote:
@ Max:
@ JYJames:
BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! – I too am laughing too hard to have any sort of intelligent comment to make…………..BS! seriously?
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Jesus was Kung Fu fighting
Those kicks were fast as lightning
It was a little bit frightning
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I have sadly started to notice a form of neo-Calvin thought creeping into the church I have been attending all my life as a Christian – 20 years now.
why is it that churches are either hyper-dance round yer handbag hands in the air singing `Jesus is my boyfriend` whilst drinking grape juice and eating a bit of bread – or the `you are all foul sinners – you should hate yourselves – God allows people to burn in hell just because’ filled places that seem to just confirm how badly so many of us feel about ourselves?
frankly I am starting to look at the Catholic church with a bit more understanding right now.
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@ nathan priddis:
@ nathan priddis:
stop it – really – just stop it – my face is hurting I`m laughing so hard!
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Your statement in the post that “CBMW appears to be trying to convince us that men and women are so different that we cannot experience similar feelings”seems to me to be the heart of the matter!
Only by convincing themselves, and others, that they are different (read: Special, Unique, Elect) can they begin to justify the sort of demeaning behavior that they exhibit toward all women, and men who disagree with them.
You are so right–it is the old attempt to make themselves feel better by lowering everyone else’s worth.
Common behavior but always destructive.
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I spent 25+ years in Sovereign Grace… This testosterone thing was HUGE with the pastors. Most of them were the types of kids that got their lunch money stolen regularly in grade school. I know of a red headed pastor in Dave Harvey’s old church who was regularly scorned for his lack of athletic abilities. All I jest of course… :/
I believe this all stems from the pastor worship that many of these guys seek and desire. By talking “testosterone”, they get their self fueled egos going thinking that they are big, sexy macho men… And their gushing wives love it… It’s another sad and ungodly way the gospel has been compromised in the United States. It’s the “all about me” mentAlity that exists with these guys.
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“Men long for a higher calling. They need a higher purpose. Our hearts leap within us when we see exhibitions of courage, when we hear tales of heroism, when we witness valiant sacrifice. Give men a grander vision for their life, one marked by service, leadership, and devotion to great and noble ends in the Kingdom of Christ.”
Then why is it that so many more women than men are going on the mission field right now?
And why is it that so many more single women are going to the most dangerous places to share the gospel with those who have yet heard?
I know. I know. We’re feminists trying to compete with the men.
Do they have any idea how ridiculous this all sounds anywhere else but in the US? And it sounds pretty ridiculous here.
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“Satan hates testosterone”
This is an example of one of the prominent fruits of our modern-day Kardashian Kristianity.
Churchianity Celebrities have to keep upping the ante in order to keep the crowds coming back and the fame rolling in.
Got to keep coming up with new feathers with which to tickle the audience’s ears.
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molly245 wrote:
I agree Molly! The CBMW gospel™ separates the men from the women (“Is Christ divided?” 1 Cor 1:13). However, the book of Galatians teaches us that in Christ we are joined together as one, and the barriers that fallen people construct to create divisions that are based on gender, race, nationality, social class, etc., are done away with and inconsequential to the reality of the union we enjoy in Jesus.
The CBMW loves to promote Men’s Conferences and special Male Bonding Moments, teaching men they should be more manly, and not share any similarities with women who are so, so, so different. And if a man isn’t working on being more of a man, then he’s just not biblical™.
And I can’t really say what they teach the women because none of them allowed themselves to be interviewed for this comment, telling me that it wasn’t their role to be involved in anything outside the home. 😛
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I’m surprised he didn’t call it Gospel Testosterone.
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“Holy Testosterone, Batman!”
“Uhhhhhhh, hey Beavis, he said ‘penal,’ uhhh-huh-huh-huh.”
“Yeah yeah yeah, hmmm hmmm hmmm, ‘pehal!,’ hmm hmm hmm.”
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So Mark Driscoll thinks he could have beat up Jesus… okaaaaaaaay…
These guys have officially leapt off the edge of the cliff into complete heresy.
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Gonna have to rewrite a lot of hymns. There is power in the testerone does not have the the same ring to it.
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Don’t you know the bible is full of testosterone, as in the “Old Testosterone” and the “New Testosterone”? 😉
These guys must be really desperate. Taking one step back, it’s eady to see that this is mot an exclusively christian phenomenon. Fundamentalists of all strips – christian, jewish, muslim, hindu – are united in one common goal: to keep women subservient to them.
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“Satan hates testosterone.” I thought he hated truth.
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Kemi wrote:
Not only His life, but also His death. You’d almost get the impression from Mr Strachan’s tweets that he thinks Jesus nailed Satan to the cross and not vice versa. Perhaps he would also care to explain Phillipians 2:5-11 to us, where Paul said Christ won by *humbly submitting to humiliation and death*, which is about as polar opposite from dudebro machismo as you can get.
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Steve wrote:
Yes! That does not work as propaganda for the young unthinking minds.
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Eeyore wrote:
Very astute!
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I have an idea!
Since the YRR/CBMW/T4TG crowd likes to make money off the G$spel TM, I think they should start selling Apostolic approved testosterone suppliments! They are not FDA approved/covered, so they do not have to worry about whether they are effective.
They could pitch it that taking these endorsed suppliments will keep satan away,help you grow a better beard so you look like more of your Gospel bros, give you strength to keep your church/small group/family/wife in line, and might even make it more fun for you (wink wink).
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I don’t think the men in these organizations see women as fully human.
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Deb wrote:
Holy c***. That guys not just some 23 yo intern? That makes this article even more disturbing.
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nathan priddis wrote:
Lol!
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BL wrote:
I actually believe that a misplaced sex drive, the one that leads many men to stray and violate their marriage vows, is a tool of Satan. It would be more likely that Satan loves testosterone b/c it leads to the sin of substituting a sex object for the person to whom the guy has a marriage commitment.
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This Owen tweet is truly bizarre. I think he is just trying to be provocative, and irritate people with his pontificating pronouncement. He is a laughing stock minion as far as I am concerned, but what do I know?
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Gus wrote:
lol! Started my day off with more laughing! Hope those guys realize how absurd these things sound! If this is how they interpret the higher standard they are called to, I worry about their servant-leader interpretation.
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I never made it though “Wild at Heart,” but it seems to promote and encourage the “knight in shining armor” mindset, where the strong man rides in to rescue the damsel in distress.
But I’ve seen this go horribly awry. Pity can feel a lot like love, and a person can find himself drawn to someone with issues because he wants to fix her. Or she wants to fix him. But too often, they end up with a project, not a partner.
There is a lot of discussion about the Hebrew word ezer, commonly translated “helpmeet.” We think of it as almost a sidekick. But the Hebrew is more like “a force opposite.” It’s one of those key words.
Like penal. Now everytime I say that word, I’m going to snicker. And that really must aggravate the folks for whom PSA = the Gospel.
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So, Satan was defeated by roid rage? I guess that explains a lot about John the Baptist’s “madness”, as he was probably juicing. But wait, if all it took was some injections, did Jesus really need to come at all. Seems like some other male receiving holy injections from the angels could’ve done the job and spared Him the trouble. (Of course, there is that annoying little factoid about “God so loving the world…”, but that was probably metaphorical…)
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Why any man would so lower and disparage himself as to think that his value is limited to his hormone levels is disturbing. I would like to see what is on the computers of some of these people.
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“Men long for a higher calling. They need a higher purpose.”
With words and vain philosophies such as these that are found no where in my Bible, I am beginning to understand that satan is using men with this type of heresy to kill and destroy the true Body of Christ. Who is seeking the attention, the applause, the praise and the worship of people here….is it not a man/flesh?
This is called outright heresy and idolatry as we are told to worship Jesus in Spirit and truth, not men who seek a higher calling or men who need a higher purpose. Why are these men destroying the unity of the Ekklesia?
And so that woman in our Holy Scriptures who anointed Jesus with that expensive ointment in the Pharisees home, in the presence of lofty men, was a feminist because she dared to worship Jesus without the permission of a man, let alone a pastor man/authoritarian?
The false Christian religion gets weirder by the day.
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Oh man, ssb linked a new Kevin DeYoung 9Marks Complementarianismismist article on facebook. It’s like a train wreck, but I can’t look away from these things! It’s sure to be ridiculous, like all the rest of them.
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@ Lea:
Oh wait, it’s not an article by DeYoung. It’s by Scot McKnight about deyoungs article. That’s better.
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dee wrote:
I snorted coffee reading this…..
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Steve wrote:
Well, this much I know.
Genesis 3:15
“And I will put enmity
Between you (the serpent, Satan maybe?) and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
Enmity is kind of like hate. Right?
And I thought the serpent represented Satan.
I could be wrong.
But I know Strachan isn’t right.
Nor does he understand his Bible.
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Lea wrote:
It’s kind of like watching the towers fall. It’s so terrible, but you can’t look away.
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JeffB wrote:
TestGospelRone[TM]
I shoulda gone into sadvertising. Just imagine what coulda been done for the Klinkdom …
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Steve wrote:
Amen! These New Calvinists are good at twisting everything to make it fit a reformed grid. However, the truth is that Satan indeed hates Truth (Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life). When the enemy of the Cross comes knocking in your life, you don’t defeat him with aberrant theology and testosterone; you overcome him with the blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony (Rev. 12:10-11). And, folks, the word of your testimony better be the Truth and nothing but the Truth! You are not walking in the presence and power of Christ if you embrace the teachings and traditions of men as your shield, when they are off-track as much as this current strain of reformed theology. New Calvinist belief and practice has strayed into territory it shouldn’t have and its followers are powerless to defeat Satan’s meddling in their lives (as evidenced by the sinful fall of some of their most prominent leaders). Satan doesn’t hate testosterone – he loves it when it gets stirred up into a macho frenzy which will fall into his trap.
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Stan wrote:
I have about decided that also…..
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Actually, that kinda sounds like what it would sound like if Scooby-Doo were the spokesdog for TestGospelRone[TM].
Anyone know what agency he’s with?
Oh wait — first, gotta know — is he a dominionist?
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@ K.D.:
Yep, you just can not have a woman pastor in the SBC–just about everything else is allowed though.
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Max wrote:
There was a movie a number of years ago with al pacino as the devil, and when trying to tempt Keanu he ends up saying vanity is his favorite sin. All these guys are vain. Prideful. Arrogant.
And half the stuff they write is just gibberish.
In Kevin’s article he says: “Principial not personal. It’s human nature: we personalize when we listen and universalize when we speak. [snipped] Or because we’ve had a bad pastor or a brutish boyfriend, we are always slamming the complementarianism we say we believe in. Don’t size up the whole complementarian universe based on a couple of your most painful experiences.”
Don’t judge the theory by its fruit? Is that what he’s saying here? (also, I don’t know if the people slamming comp ‘say they believe in’ it. Maybe they think its nonsense like I do)
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Lea wrote:
An interesting line that needs some pondering. It’s increasingly apparent that New Calvinists look at the spiritual worth of their “sistern” in a totally different way than they do their brethren. There’s a lot of YRR hype in Southern Baptist ranks about taking the denomination back to its roots … the theology that drove the creation of the denomination prior to the Civil War. The founders were predominantly Calvinists, who used that theology to defend the sinful practice of slave-holding … yes, early SBC pastors, deacons, and laymen were slave-holders in the South. If you stretch Scripture enough, you can not only put women in an un-Biblical subordinate role, but the lives of others who must bow as your servant. When the early victories by the Confederacy turned to defeat, Southern Baptists began to distance themselves from reformed theology. By the time the 20th century turned around, the belief and practices of SBC founders were in the rear-view mirror. New Calvinists want to turn the clock back … not to justify slavery, certainly, but to justify their current authoritarian use of “holy” testosterone in other areas, which ain’t holy behavior at all.
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dee wrote:
I am truly humbled by this most accurate acknowledgement that I am first. I really am humbled. I hope my humility is apparent to all. If not, trust me I really am humbled by this. I’m very macho; but humbly so. I don’t know this Strachan guy but I’m sure he’s humble too — and macho. Very macho. Again, I am very humbled to be first among you all.
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Lots of intelligent, faithful estrogen waited at the tomb of One placed there by lots of testosterone.
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mot wrote:
Including pastors who cover up sexual abuse of children, practice abuse of congregants (aka “church discipline”), forgive men who have extramarital affairs or disfellowship the abused woman who seeks protection from her spouse.
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Max wrote:
It’s not just spiritual worth. They seem to think men are the only ones who need respect, fulfillment, education, etc..
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It must be confusing to be a male heterosexual who hates women.
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Irish lass wrote:
Speaking of hymns, the Baptist hymnal used in Southern Baptist ranks was revised in 2008, at a time when New Calvinist influence was becoming apparent throughout SBC life. Two of my favorite hymns were dropped: “Whosoever Will” and “Whosoever Meaneth Me”. Those songs point to the sacrifice of Christ for ALL … the “whosoever wills” who respond to the Gospel message (the right one) in belief and faith. The words of hymns such as this do not line up with reformed theology regarding the predestined elect. Calvinist influence in dropping these hymns? Think about this next time you pick up one of those new LifeWay hymnals.
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Steve wrote:
In my humble, but accurate, opinion … ;^)
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Lea wrote:
When enough young women trapped in New Calvinism see this, perhaps they will rise up en masse to proclaim “Wait just a darn minute here!” and drag their sorry husbands/boy friends out of the mess! Perhaps then we will see New Calvinism fall.
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Uncle Dad wrote:
Certainly one way around that is to complement machismo misogyny of the men with passivity and long-suffering marianismo of the women.
And since marianismo comes out of Catholicism, kind of makes you wonder if “sanctified testosterone” is not quite so Reformed as originally purported to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianismo
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Don’t you guys understand the extensive word study Owen has made to come to this Biblical conclusion? There is an ancient manuscript discovered in a very esoteric language coined as “dudespeak”. It was found in some unknown city called Settle or Seattle or something. We think it was located in a place called Oregon. What Owen discovered was Oregan was “dude speak” for organ. And in ancient dudespeak the only important oregon or organ was phallic in nature. As he continued his research, he was introduced to the original concept of penal. The written language of the time had not been codified and MANuscripts often had alternative spellings. By God’s divine inspiration, Owen discovered penal had been a misspelling of penile! Now Christians have been exposed to the “new light” or “new revelation”! It wasn’t our Messiah’s divinity that conquered death, it was his penis!!
How could we have been wrong for so long? Alas for me and my house-we will be hanging phallises in our house to remind us of all God has done through Jesus’ male anatomy! Come join our club. PS-no girlz allowed.
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This is hardly the first bizarre tweet from the CBMW crowd, or from Owen Strachan in particular. A few weeks ago he tweeted “The Gospel has a complementarian shape”. What?
This is what happens when the agenda for a theological movement is being controlled by a small handful of well-connected guys who never interact meaningfully with even respectful, constructive criticism. You get arguments that are increasingly lazy and world-encompassing.
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@ brad/futuristguy:
What a fascinating article! “I]t teaches that women are semi divine, morally superior to and spiritually stronger than men.”
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Edward wrote:
Agreed! These “influencers” are trying to make Jesus into their image … only those who don’t know Him would risk that. Holy testosterone?! Oh God, deliver us from these Pied Pipers who are taking our youth on a long walk!
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Edward wrote:
Of course it does. It is the Mars symbol
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This is my comment on that:
roebuck wrote:
Thank you Roebuck. 😉
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Paula Rice wrote:
This made me laugh out loud. Thank you! Very therapeutic.
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Max wrote:
I don’t want to take away from what you’ve written here, but just to be very, very clear, the SBC was started in the 1840s because the American Baptist Home Mission Society refused to appoint slaveowners as missionaries. You can thumb through the minutes of the very first Southern Baptist convention in 1845 and see how much the men then were talking about how they needed missionaries, but totally stepping around the elephant in the room, which is that the missionaries they wanted appointed were slaveowners.
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/ml-sbcann/id/1951
I’d also note that the legal status of women was in many ways akin to that of slaves in the USA at the time.
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My ten-foot-tall-bullet-proof husband fell off of a 12 foot ladder Saturday onto a concrete driveway and a lava rock flowerbeds and had to be taken to the hospital by ambulance. He could have been hurt much worse than he was, and it is a miracle that he got off as easy as he did.
Here’s the rundown: concussion, cuts requiring stitches on his hand, chin, and lower lip. He has a broken jaw, and he bit his tongue badly – completely through about 3/4 of the way across. Blood every where! I watched them stitch his tongue ….. Horrible.
Saturday and Sunday he had major memory problems, was combative, angry, in denial. He is still in a lot of pain. I had absolutely no qualms about taking control at the hospital – forms, info, instructions, keeping my husband under control and preventing him from hurting himself even more. He understands the situation now, but he is still being a bit belligerent. I have no qualms about making my husband behave and follow Drs orders at home. My primary back-ups are my mom and my daughter – he listens to us better than will anyone else. Phooey on submission and sanctified testosterone.
Our situation has given me mean-spirited idea for a “higher calling” suggestion for Owen Strachan and his CBMW/Comp dude bros. How about they climb up some 12 foot ladders? I’ll be more than happy to yank those ladders out from beneath them, and then tell their wives to stay in their God-ordained, subservient places. Let’s see what their sanctified testosterone does for them then!
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mirele wrote:
You can read up on a fascinating piece of 19th-century history in this book about Abby Kelley, when the abolition movement was organically integrated with women’s rights in the pre-Civil War era. Advocates and activists were pursuing freedom from enslavement and the right to vote for both men and women.
http://www.amazon.com/Ahead-Her-Time-Politics-Antislavery/dp/0393311317/
Abby Kelley was a Quaker, and I do find it intriguing to see historically what kinds of theologies typically have been behind enslavement, and which behind freedom from slavery and freedom of conscience.
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Bill M wrote:
It strikes me odd that Calvinists would be bragging on males having the holy testosterone, as if man accomplished salvation.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
“Baptized in the Holy Fluid from my rod…”
— dialog from a pornographic short cited in the Meese Commission report (1984)
“…Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
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Mae wrote:
CALVIN did!
CALVIN whose Institutes have God All Figured Out!
CALVIN who had testosterone!
Calvin treated his critics with contempt, calling them “pigs,” “asses,” “riffraff,” “dogs,” “idiots,” and “stinking beasts.” In this vein, Calvin said this of the great Anabaptist leader, Menno Simons: “Nothing could be prouder, nothing more impudent than this donkey.”(8)
And the stones that go with it! Just ask Servetus!
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@ Lea:
DeYoung’s article is on The Gospel Coalition website. He lays out his Nine Marks of Manhood. Are these guys original or what?!!!
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Edward wrote:
They see The Gospel(TM) every time they look in the mirror.
(Make sure to take breaks for food or sleep — remember what happened to Narcissus…)
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@ Nancy2:
Glad your husband survived!
My wife climbs the ladder around our house. No kidding. Sorry Strachan. I’m quite sure I have more testosterone than my wife. That’s just how we do things. We each know our strengths and weaknesses. We haven’t even discussed if we’re complementarian or egalitarian. We’re just married. Doing the best we can. It’s worked for 36 years. Gotta go hold the ladder…
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@ Nancy2:
Nancy2, I prayed for your husband … and you … just now. Praying for a quick recovery for your husband and for your strength as you minister to him.
We need to recognize each other in the Body of Christ. There is no male and female “in Christ” (Galatians 3:28) – we who know Him know that.
Regarding New Calvinist leaders now standing on 12-foot celebrity ladders, God has a way of yanking those ladders out from beneath them better than we can. In His time …
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Nancy2 wrote:
Oh No! So glad he’s ok.
When my dad fell on some ice last year and had a mild concussion, my mom made a doctors appointment for him and I was going to drive him to it but he insisted on going to the bank, and missed it. And then he didn’t want to go. I had to put my mom on the phone to tell him whats what. And then we went to the doctor.
These guys are idiots.
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@ Nancy2:
Praise God he survived. The father of one of my daughter’s friends died a few years back from cleaning out the gutters. So tragic!
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Nancy2 wrote:
Sounds like a variation on 1 Cor 10:12, “he that stands take heed lest he fall”. In a similar vein I wonder if I’m not guilty of pride in this exercise of taking down Strachan with his tweet, it sounds like shooting fish in a barrel, it is ridiculously easy and guaranteed of success.
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Bill M wrote:
Even Strachan provides us some counsel in this regard, when he says “It’s really hard in this day and age not to have egg on your face if you are a person that’s active and engaged. We have these patterns, we are not self-critical about things. I know that I am not always self-critical about what I write … am I self-promoting?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQpZjgiWDOk
Preaching that Jesus’ “holy testosterone” crushed Satan’s head is egg on your face … an easy fish to shoot in a barrel.
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@ Nancy2:
Oh how awful, Nancy2! Sending up prayer for your husband! 🙁
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Ann wrote:
And so the Cult of Priapus starts a new membership drive…
Will there be sacred ritual masturbation of the Holy Lingam like in some types of Tantric Yoga?
Ritual Sex Magick like in Semitic fertility cults?
(With the firstfruits of the Quiverfull passed through the fire?)
Humans have a REAL bad track record of mixing the Sacred and the Erotic.
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okrapod wrote:
And to the size of Captain Bonerhelmet between his legs.
I can guess. Both Douggie ESQUIRE and The Humble One did things I had previously only heard of as porn shticks: Douggie ESQUIRE’s actual acts performed on his Handmaid to preserve plausible deniability and The Humble One expecting his wife to drop everything and service the Urges in his Areas while puking her guts from morning sickness (because in porn the woman Always services the man regardless).
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Lea wrote:
Neither do men into pornography.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
“Natural Male Enhancement(TM)!”
(Like Enzyte with Bob the Tetanus Boy.)
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Gus wrote:
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM
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Steve Scott wrote:
“Are you familiar with the Penile Code in this state?”
— Kentucky Fried Movie, the courtroom scene at the end
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Somewhereintime wrote:
You said da Sekrit Woid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08
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@ Nancy2:
Sorry this happened! I hope your hubby recovers well and has no lasting injuries. I will pray for your all.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
I see a post for the Babylon Bee 😉
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I'm catching up on TWW, when I get breaks between waiting on my husband and "beating" him into medically mandated submission. Forget "a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" and a "girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do. A person has to do what a person has to do – that's always been how I view it!
Thanks for the prayers and good wishes. But, let's not forget Dave AA and his wife. They have a tougher row to hoe than my husband and I. We're with you, Dave!
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Nancy2 wrote:
My parents walked into my sister’s house one day when she was seven months pregnant to find her up on a high ladder replacing lightbulbs. “Why doesn’t K [husband] do it?” they asked. “Because it will never get done,” my sister replied. So much for testosterone.
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“In Revelation, Jesus is a pride-fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is the guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.”
vs
“He has said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.'”
2 Corinthians 12:9-10
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Max wrote:
I hope you’re right, Max. It can take a long time to finally see the emptiness and become disillusioned.
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I think I’ve posted this before? Here is a video of the gender complementarian, testosterone Jesus.
This is the Jesus who Owen Strachan, John Piper, and Mark Driscoll market:
DJesus Uncrossed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQyH5Vj1iVY
I do think the other extreme of Jesus – Jesus all lovey dovey and super pacifist no matter what, is also rather inaccurate.
I don’t recognize either Jesus, the super violent manly Jesus, or the super mild, non-confrontational wimpy Jesus some Christians espouse.
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Edward wrote:
Hoo boy… I’m not going to describe the shape I’m seeing…
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Aimee Byrd has taken this up for a second week
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/housewife-theologian/listening-to-the-women?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=76fd30f17f-Housewife+Theologian&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-76fd30f17f-119263361
Todd Pruitt is also turning his humorous eye on them.
http://www.alliancenet.org/mos/1517
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molly245 wrote:
A lady at Julie Anne’s blogged got very miffed with me a few weeks ago for saying I think men and women are more alike than not (I did not say “identical”), but the older I get, I honestly feel that most of the differences we see (in the USA at least) are socially conditioned, not in-born traits.
Outside of obvious biological functions and differences, such as the fact that women can bear children, I’m not seeing where men and women are all that different.
I’m still not saying they are identical, but I don’t buy into the “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus and designed that way by God” stuff anymore.
For one thing, I’ve seen too many exceptions and have been one myself in some areas. I’ve seen men/boys who display interests or traits that many would consider feminine, and women/girls who have what many would consider masculine.
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Daisy wrote:
– traits or interests.
And that should have been “at Julie Anne’s blog,” not “blogged.”
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Irish lass wrote:
This reminds me!
And I do believe I gave the link to this on a thread here a couple of months ago: I read an article where it was pointed out that most of the “Jesus is my boyfriend” hymns sung in churches – the songs that manly-man complementarian males say they hate – have been written by men.
The same article said that many of the hymns emphasizing Jesus’ rough, masculine traits have been written by women.
(I am pretty sure that article is on CBE’s site.)
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@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
That might be the next step on CBMW and among complementarians: selling medications to treat Low Testosterone on their sites. 🙂 I see commercials for that stuff late at night by companies.
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Daisy wrote:
Jesus got angriest confronting terrible religious leaders. If they want to talk about that Jesus, I’m all ears.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You need to get over Calvin. Such was the language of the times.
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Lea wrote:
Someone wrote a response to it (I’m assuming this is referencing the same article):
DeYoung’s 9Marks of Complementarianism
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/04/25/deyoungs-9marks-of-complementarianism/
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Uncle Dad wrote:
While I don’t get out that much, I’ve still talked to more than a few non-straight men, and all of the ones I’ve met so far think that women are awesome (they just don’t want a romantic relationship with one). But why a straight guy would hate women is beyond me! (Yet, seemingly, these folks do.)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Ah, there’s something in common with parts of the Charismatic movement, I see…
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2010/10/06/the-glory-and-the-spout/
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Daisy wrote:
There have always been tomboys and we didn’t make such a big deal about it. Many things may be more prevalent in one group or another, but averages are just averages. Many people on both ends of the spectrum and a bunch in the middle. It’s silly to act like everyone of either sex is going to be the same, have the same interests, roles, and talents.
All of this hyper focus is nonsense. Are you a man? Then you are being a man. Are you a woman? Then you are being a woman. Nobody has to think about it so hard.
Can we please focus instead of on stupid prescribed ‘roles’ simply being decent men and women?
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Edward wrote:
Similar to:
John Piper: Christianity Has A Masculine Feel
http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2012/february/john-piper-and-rise-of-biblical-masculinity.html?paging=off
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Gus wrote:
Yes, it’s not an exclusively Christian problem, it’s a human problem…called sin. I’m curious maybe these guys are so desperate and in fearful they are trying to grab control. Who knows? It is really so sad that they don’t know the actual gospel as much as they throw the word around.
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The following is my attempt to satirize CBMW, based upon the article’s title “Holy Testosterone!” and does not necessarily reflect my real opinions.
“Some of you evanjellyfish feminists and your anatomically male worship leader friends complain that our ESS scheme leaves no room for holy spirit. Well, let me clear that up right now. holy spirit actually refers to Holy Testosterone. Both John the Baptist and Jesus were filled with holy spirit, right? And they were both manly men– not genderless blobs. John was like Elijah and Jesus followed after him like Elisha. And Jesus got the double portion of Testosterone so he could be the church’s leder. Ever think about how the prophet Elisha and the apostle Mahaney are alike? They’re both bald, right? And everyone knows baldness is caused by Testosterone. So when Elijah prayed for a double portion of Elijah’s spirit, god gave him double the Testosterone, which also made him bald. So when Paul writes in Ephesians 5 to be filled with the spirit, he wants the Ephesian elders to grow a pair and get more Holy Testosterone so’s they can lead the wimmenfolks, kids, slaves, and wimpy pew-sitter guys more better, just like Christ lead the church. I hope this helps.”
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@ brad/futuristguy:
Thought provoking comment! I think you’re dead on. And I would argue that it’s hard for complementarians (or as @ Lea: would say “Complementarianismismist” haha) to refute the fact they promote the belief that “women are simply an addition to the male ego; their only identity is found in being a virgin, wife, and mother.”
Also, that image of Mary on the Marianismo page? Ugh. Not the first time I’ve seen that kind of thing: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c6/48/94/c64894ef39332379701f91e19b400287.jpg
So disturbing. I think that images like that, however, serve to reveal the idolatry that, in reality, fuels this ‘Biblical Womanhood’ stuff. I think it’s more accurate to label a lot of it ‘Demonic Womanhood’ because of the bondage it creates.
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@ mirele:
It was concerning the slave owner taking any slaves with them on the mission field. Lottie Moons family were big slave owners but of course they lost everything before her time. My point is had her family wanted to go, they could, but not take slaves. that was the issue.
And just as recent as 1994, SBTS named a college after pro slaver founder, Boyce. I also heard the SBTS trustees gave Russ Moore, the ELRC prez and anti racism guy, an expensive portrait of pro slaver Broaddus, for his new office when he left. (Did they buy it with their own money or give him SBC property?)
Anywho, they talk a good game about racism but don’t seem to get it. Not to mention their fixation on gender “roles”.
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Max wrote:
There was an interesting 2 part series about this at CBE.
From part 1 (by Kevin Giles):
Justifying Injustice with the Bible: Slavery
http://www.cbeinternational.org/resources/article/arise/justifying-injustice-bible-slavery?page=show
Snippet:
He goes on to show how gender complementarians today approach the topic of gender roles / women / marriage in the same way.
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@ Nancy2:
Oh my. Prayers and thoughts your way;
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@ mirele:
That sounds like almost every boyfriend or husband my sister has ever had. Also sounds a lot like my ex fiance’.
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lowlandseer wrote:
If only people would get over him today!
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Steve wrote:
Amen.
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@ Ann:
Very good. All that is missing is an angel named Jared.
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I guess Owen Strachan didn’t consult with Al Mohler prior to tweeting.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2006/12/11/thank-god-for-testosterone-confusion-about-christian-manhood/
I especially loved this line:
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@ Nancy2:
I missed the info on DaveAA but all our in our family prayers.
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Bill M wrote:
It sort of enables the persecution complex thing they have going on, too.
Where is The Onion? This stuff is Onion worthy.
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On a completely unrelated topic, it will not have escaped the attention of Wartburgers around the world that today is the 30th anniversary of the Chernobyl disaster (the link will take you to the excellent and comprehensive Wikipedia article on same). It is thought that 49 people died in the immediate aftermath, many of them from the emergency services who – in most cases, knowing full well what they were walking into – risked and ultimately gave their lives trying to limit the damage as much as they could. By its very nature, the final death-toll will never be known.
In Memoriam: the Chernobyl 49.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Holy Testosterone is being driven 150 yards to work in an Escalade.
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Daisy wrote:
As much as I hate to stereotype, they do say if you want something said ask a man. If you want something done, otoh…
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siteseer wrote:
A few young women we know in an SBC-YRR church plant are starting to look empty and disillusioned when we bump into them in the community, after 5 years of experiencing the glory of New Calvinism … you can discern the oppression on their countenance. They used to be so joyous in the traditional SBC church where we met them. They had roles in that church and faithfully served Jesus there. They followed their young whippersnapper husbands to the new and improved reformed thing when it came to town. Their husbands appear happy enough, however.
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I always liked it when they use higher college attendance rates among women than men as evidence that we have a “man problem” in society. You know, that men aren’t taking leadership roles and pursuing serious vocations.
This ignores the fact that one third of jobs in the United States are blue collar and do not require college education. Many of those jobs require upper body strength which very few women have. Many of them pay quite well.
But you know it’s so much more manly to sit in the library all day than to climb up an electric pole and install a power transformer.
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Steve Scott wrote:
LOL!
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Lea wrote:
This really made me laugh! T
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@ patriciamc:
T? Oops.
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Ann wrote:
Great satire, but goodness gracious, it’s like they secretly believe this!
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Paula Rice wrote:
Of course, EVERYTHING non-Calvinist is “liberal” to Dr. Mohler. Calvinism is the only genuine Christian orthodoxy in his mind and he will tell you that. I praise God for women believers throughout the Body of Christ who help keep churches open with their spiritual gifts, whether they be widows, single, or staying the course after their no-account husbands rejected the Gospel.
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Daisy wrote:
On Wenatchee’s blog, there’s a link to a similar article written by another Reformed comp guy. This (extreeemly long) article’s point is the same as the Rey article: you women need to stay in your place and be weak because that’s the only way for us men to be strong and the world does revolve around us, you know. The author mentions a man’s greater physical strength. Well, weaker is not the same thing as weak. Sure, most women will have a very hard time fighting off a bad guy, but so will most men. Fighting in real life is awkward, hard, and hurts like you-know-what (I got this from a guy.) Movies have exaggerated characters and situations in order to tell a story. Normal people don’t confuse that with real life.
The authors of these articles can put on their big boy pants and grow the H up, or I will be the woman they want me to be if they become the men they think Rey and Xena are keeping them from being. I’ll wear a gauzy dress and sit around softly cooing lullabies to…, well I don’t have any kids, so I’ll coo to my cat. I’ll even position a fan so my hair billows in the breeze like a supermodel’s. The men, though, must be Real Men with a capital R and a capital M. They must be super confident with no insecurities. They must always know what they’re doing and have the answers to everything. They must do everything right no matter what it is. They must have no fears. They must have super, dooper sculpted muscles including a well-defined six pack. They must last more than three minutes. Cause that’s what real men do, right?
BTW, do you think these guys who wrote these articles know that the main character of Zero Dark Thirty is based on not one, but three real, live women? Not fictional women, but real ones!
The guys who wrote these make me as a woman shudder and gag. They’re so freaking pitiful!
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Max wrote:
The dismissal of women’s value, particularly tying it to age, is just another indication that john piper has a empty cavity where his heart should be. What a jerk. Really.
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patriciamc wrote:
I doubt most of these guys who push all this ” manly men” business are much men anyway. Real men don’t have to say a word about how much of a man they really are….
You want to scare these ” manly men?” Go into an actual farming or ranching community in which the wives, daughters of the farmer, rancher help on the ” place.” They’re more of a ” man” than most of these braggarts in the pulpit….and clean up “really well” for special occasions…( I am sure the pastors would ” name call” these ladies to make themselves ” feel better” )
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Daisy wrote:
Thanks Daisy for the link to that article. A good read.
Another resource on this issue is Bruce Gourley’s book “Diverging Loyalties: Baptists in Middle Georgia During the Civil War.” A review of his book speaks clearly about the influence of Calvinism on Baptists in the South prior to the Civil War.
“Baptists in the South, rapidly rising to challenge Methodists numerically, helped align Southern religion with the South’s black slave culture. The birth of the Southern Baptist Convention in 1845, formed in order to preserve God’s will for the African race, signaled the inevitability of war.”
The new reformers are just as wrong about the subordination of female believers, as the old Calvinists were about God’s will for the African race.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I’m afraid you’re thinking of of someone else. But will pray for them, along with you and your husband, if you can recall the situation!
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“Time and again, Paul chastised these believers, especially their men for their immaturity. The Apostle wrote: And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able.”[1] – See more at: http://jasonkallen.com/2016/04/5-keys-to-cultivating-biblical-manhood-in-your-church/#_ftn1
How in the world do you get to be a seminary president, when you can’t even see that Paul was NOT talking to males but to everyone. Sure, he conveniently used the couple of translations that through in the word men for people as many translations say men/man for humans all the time. BUT, in this case, not even a word exists in the original for people at all except for brethren is common to be used when speaking to a co-ed crowd back then.
Oh, wait I think someone already answered how you get appointed to president, young and Mohlerized, got it.
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Being a theologian and a guy, this is blatant outright heresy! Level of testerone has nothing to do with it.
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Uh, Dee, would you mind fixing my grammar please, not I do not sound educated :-/
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lowlandseer wrote:
That was actually Rachael Starke guest posting at Aimee’s place by expanding on Aimee’s post from last week. When two prominent comp women take on CBMW for their ridiculous nonsensical posturing, you know the patriarchists are going wacky.
Here’s my own extension of Aimee’s original post on sanctified testosterone, looking more deeply at the import of ezer kenegdo in Genesis: The Impotence of Sanctified Testosterone.
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Leslie wrote:
Sounds like your stepfather was influenced by the GI Generation? After WW2, woman were discouraged from occupying seats in the classrooms or positions in the workforce to make room for the returning servicemen, and with that came all the propaganda aimed at women. I think the 1950’s is the decade American complementarians use as a standard for the way the family was defined. Or, really, anytime prior to 1960 when the birth control pill came out!
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Lea wrote:
Definition: “religious belief and practice that allows young reformed preacher boys to treat women in a way that indirectly gets back at their mamas for not giving them more chocolate when they were little”
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rhondajeannie wrote:
A BIG AMEN here rhondajeannie! What these geniuses always conveniently ignore is that God chose the seed of the woman to destroy the works of the devil.
No Human Male DNA Whatsoever was involved in Messiah’s conception.
It was by Mary’s ovum alone, supernaturally acted upon by the Almighty himself that brought Jesus into this world. It’s the main reason why I trust in his very literal and very real person alone.
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patriciamc wrote:
I have a well-defined six-pack. But I choose to conceal it behind a modest layer of abdominal fat.
(I need somewhere to inject insulin, after all.)
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@ Max:
I know, right? And Amen to what you said!
I will say that I listened to some of the men and the messages they preached at T4G 2016, and I know I felt myself aging each time. So, I really don’t think it’s fair to place the blame for the premature aging us women have suffered in church on Liberal Protestantism alone. Know what I’m saying Max?
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Anyway, in what universe does it take he-man levels of testosterone to give lectures in a seminary? Isn’t it about time the wee man got a job?
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Paula Rice wrote:
That is offensive on so many levels. A bit of sexism here, some ageism there.
He says men are leaving churches in droves – he hasn’t seen the latest research I guess, because either Pew (or Barna) have reported that women are leaving in droves, too.
Five Factors Changing Women’s Relationship with Churches
https://www.barna.org/barna-update/culture/722-five-factors-changing-women-s-relationship-with-churches
By the way, one of the most obtuse things I’ve ever seen to explain why more women are quitting church was written by a complementarian woman:
On her blog, on one of her bulleted points, she maintains that churches are not complementarian enough, which is driving women away (in her view).
When I’d say it’s the opposite situation: complementarian churches either
1. devalue and limit women, which women notice and tire of and leave, or,
2. comp churches stick with ministering only to the ‘nuclear family model,’ when more and more women are remaining single and childless now and don’t get their needs met at church.
Anyway. Mohler also says men are leaving because churches are feminized, which is also a lot of bunk (at least, he says this is more true of liberal churches).
Even if we grant that point, guys like him complain that conservative churches are losing men too, and it seems to me most conservative churches are complementarian and promote a manly-man version of the faith, so how does he explain that? He can’t attribute it to churches being feminized.
There were one or two points I agree with Mohler on in that page, but there were a few “misses” too, IMO.
Mohler writes:
I think he’s wrong on point 1.
I agree with point 2.
If modern conservative churches are having trouble attracting men, the answer is not to blame women or anything woman-like, as Mohler is doing.
I would say a lot of men are driven away from churches due to stuff like the shallow sermons, or rock-concert type environments, and other silly, seeker friendly dreck that goes on – and you can’t blame women for that.
I think seeker friendly nonsense was created by men, yes? Such as Rick Warren?
I do appreciate that Mohler calls out the rudeness and selfishness promoted under some comp teaching, but his views on women are still sexism, of the condescending, benevolent variety:
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K.D. wrote:
And I’ve been pondering about exactly when in history and culture and social strata was their concept of patriarchy ever functioning?
Biblical times?
Medieval times?
In the middle East?
In Europe?
Among the rich, among the poor?
In cities, in rural areas?
For the majority of history, cultures, and societal levels – women were not living safe, sheltered, protected lives within the home, while the men were off doing manly things.
Both men and women were usually side-by-side in the fields, working to put food on the table.
During the industrial revolution? Well, no – women AND children were laboring in mills (under the loving authority of the manly patriarchs) – long hours and little to no safety precautions.
Contrary to the beliefs of our current crop of patriarchs – women working outside the home did NOT start in the 1960s initiated by feminists.
The most likely candidate for their expressed version of patriarchy was perhaps somewhere from the Victorian period to the 50s (we’ll ignore our 1940s Rosie the Riveters) primarily among the wealthy in Europe and USA.
Can anyone provide examples of when their form of patriarchy flourished?
.
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Lea wrote:
do you mean like this:
How to Explain Mansplaining
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/opinion/how-to-explain-mansplaining.html?_r=0
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Given that Paul wrote to Timothy partly because the Ephesian women believed they were extry-speshul because their former religion put them at the center of the world, I will reapply Paul’s words to these USian men, who have come to believe they are extry-speshul and at the center of the world:
1 timothy 2:12-15
I do not permit a man to teach or to assume authority over a woman; he must be quiet. For Eve was an improvement on the first model, who was Adam. And although Eve was deceived, Adam was not and did choose sin anyway. But men will be saved by doing all the muscle work, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety.
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@ Lydia:
Haha, seriously?! Are there SBTS students standing there at the ready when he arrives at the office, a large, open umbrella in hand (representing male authority) for when it’s raining, too? 😛
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
This says it ALL.
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@ R2:
I like everything about your post. 🙂
I don’t know how to explain it, but it bothers me when commentators in the media weep tears over how younger men today are supposedly having a rougher time of things because women are out-performing them in college.
This rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Like, women are being blamed for being more responsible and studying harder, as though this is their fault?
When men fail at stuff, women get blamed for it.
You certainly see this in Christian modesty culture: when a man gets into sexual sin, the woman gets blamed.
The wife gets blamed because she’s let herself go or whatever, and the mistress gets blamed for dressing like a hussy. The man is never held accountable for his choices.
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Lea wrote:
It feels like a big urination contest (har har) to see who’s the … well … complementarianismismistest. 😮
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Patrice wrote:
Some people will go to great lengths to avoid hearing that, Patrice: Ephesus, Women, And Getting Tossed Out Of A Board Meeting.
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patriciamc wrote:
I think I saw that movie – the one about the woman who found Bin Laden? (Maybe in real life it was more than one woman, but the film made a lone composite character?)
Anyway, one glaring problem with this view comp men have of women, the ones who write these articles asking women to be and act weak so they can think of themselves as strong, is that when push comes to shove, a lot of these comp guys hurt women or don’t defend them.
I think I link higher above to a page by C. James about how comps are not protecting child sex abuse victims or domestic violence victims among them.
These comp men ask women to be weak, demure, passive little wimps, but then, they don’t do squat to actually defend women (or kids) who are taken advantage of by men in the church.
These comp men like the image of being a manly he man rescuer, but they won’t actually get off their behinds and do the rescuing.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Years ago, I’m pretty sure I read an article that mentioned that in the south (USA) in the 19th century, condoms were advertised in public on billboards (or in paper??).
I just did a web search on the topic and several pages turned up verifying this.
From Wiki:
So, the complementarians who blame 1960s feminism for the sexual revolution or changes in sexual behavior or whatever might want to rethink things.
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Casey wrote:
I once heard someone define heresy as an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth. Of course, defeating Satan with “holy testosterone” is not truth no matter how much you emphasize that point. However, there is a whole lot of overemphasis on what the New Calvinists think Paul is saying in his epistles, while under-emphasizing what Jesus is saying in the Gospels.
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Daisy wrote:
I knew this from reading cheesy regency novels!
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@ Tim:
I read your post after I published this one. We think alike! Its a great post and a must read by all.
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This = exactly! And there’s a word for that kind of emphasis: pride.
Max wrote:
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Max wrote:
Well darn! I was in the process of building me a Proton pack complete with Testosterone Containment unit to trap Stan™ and his demons.
http://www.ectozone.com/gbfl/equip.php
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@ Josh:
The linguist in me just always wants to remind the YRRs that complementarian is not a recognized word…
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Lydia wrote:
Never mind The Onion, this belongs on South Park!
Anyone got Parker & Stone on speed-dial?
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Lea wrote:
Bodice-rippers?
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The CT Interview: Saeed Abedini Answers Abuse Allegations
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2016/may/ct-interview-saeed-abedini-abuse-allegations-prison.html
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think this was from an Amanda quick novel! Mostly involving people ‘pretending’ to be engaged to solve mysteries, or having to get married under goofy circumstances…
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Some thoughts I posted on my site this afternoon. 🙂
http://www.awomansfreedominchrist.com/why-complementarian-leaders-ignore-sisters-christ/
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Daisy wrote:
Young, single women out-work and out-perform young, single men because they have to. Boys are expected to goof off and be boys. When men marry and have kids, they typically become more responsible and dependable workers.
There are any number of former Southern Seminary students who dropped out and became skilled blue collar workers after they got married and had a kid. That was the responsible thing to do. Then you have the boys on campus pretending that an M.Div. gives them a higher “holy testosterone” blood count.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Now those are real men, and real women. The same with the people at Fukushima.
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It’s sad that the CBMW types are emphasizing testosterone and Jesus, with so little focus on testosterone and domestic violence. When will they take up the issue of muscular Christianity and how it relates to wife abuse? Too many of us have had our heads CRUSHED by complementarian men.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Exactly . . . or twitter their time away . . .
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This stuff reads like an SNL sketch!
Aunt Mom and I have been out of church for thirteen years, and were unaware of just how bizarre things within the hollowed (not “hallowed”) halls of churchianity had become. It used to be that these people snipped phrases and verses from the Bible to give the appearance of legitimacy to their claims, a.k.a. “doctrines”.
For a time they would decree, “The Bible says!” without quoting an actual passage of Scripture.
Now they are just making sh*t up as they go along! Not only have they not read the Bible, they seem to think that none of us have read it either. Their opinions and doctrines of dung have replaced the Bible in their teachings (alleged).
A feller could grow some mighty fine tomaters with the stuff these boys are shovelin’!
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Max wrote:
“I look for those carrying Holy Hand Grenades in their pockets and pull the pins.”
— some interview on a Christianese talk show long, long ago
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Ruth Tucker wrote:
Too busy going “ME MAN! RAWR!!!”
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JYJames wrote:
They saw a task that needed to be done, and stepped in to do it.
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Calvinism is nothing more than man made teachings In order to place us in spiritual bondage. It seems to me that it has become a religion and ultimately an IDOL….
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Ruth Tucker wrote:
Their priorities are wrong. Flat out. Too busy puffing themselves up to notice anyone hurting.
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Max wrote:
I have always gotten that impression about Womb Tomb Swanson. Former High School Dork who got into a position of POWER by Divine Right and is throwing his weight around.
Like the wet noodle of a wimpy trid gamer bragging that “I’M REALLY A NINJA! I COULD KILL YOU ALL WITH JUST MY LITTLE FINGER!”
Or (more sinister) serial killer Edward Kemper, who murdered coed after coed as stand-ins for his abusive Mommy against whom he dared not raise a finger.
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@ Tim:
Great blog post. Simple and brief. One thing that annoys me is how many ivory tower scholars ignore the Book of Acts and its descriptor of the culture in Ephesus when interpreting that passage in 1 Tim. Right. The goddess cult was no big deal. Sigh.
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Bill M wrote:
Remember the Seven Sons of Sceva?
My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) actually saw that happen IRL. A know-it-all Spiritual Warfare type who “discerned” and cast out Demon after Demon after Demon — until he ran into his first REAL one.
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Sounds like transgender men have the right idea, if there’s any merit to this idea.
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clarissa wrote:
Well, we’ve got the longer track record and solid historical trace…
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molly245 wrote:
I have to deal with Speshul Widdle Snowflakes all the time at work.
If and When I’m able to retire, it’ll be to a survival refuge in the hills with perimeter signs saying “No Trespassing — if you can read this, you’re in my scope sights”.
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dee wrote:
I like what you did with all the tweets here. Dee. Creative use of social media for the forces of good!
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@ Patti:
Allen was not unknown to some here out and about as a Mohler right hand Calvinizing some older churches where the pastor retired. And alot of those guys double dipped.
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@ Daisy:
Haha Daisy, yeah! And I can’t help but think men, through the ages, dreamed of the day when they wouldn’t need to use a fish bladder, or some such thing, to put limits on the bacon they had to haul home! (I’m sure it was a special relief to the women, too)
The breakthrough in women gaining control of reproduction was huge. It helped scale back The Curse in a big, big way. My main beef with complementarians is that they don’t emphasize oneness. It’s like they believe the Bible says, “And the two shall become a) A Biblical Man and b) A Biblical Woman and, together, they will be known as Complementarians.” No, it doesn’t say that!
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Tim wrote:
You are def an eagle, Tim.
Unfortunately some males in these parts expect to be high-flyers, and have made themselves wings of feathers and wax.
Proponents of a ‘plain reading of scripture’ are materialists, really, aren’t they? If it isn’t right there on the page, it isn’t there at all. Similar to those who argue that since there isn’t yet proof, in hand, that CJ knew about sexual abuse in his congregations, he is innocent.
If history cannot be seen, it did not happen. Somesomething history rhyming….
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K.D. wrote:
This might give Piper the vapors.
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The penned teachings of Martyn Lloyd-Jones are quite popular amongst the complementarian/patriarchy men where the man is first in all things and the woman is second, always submissive to the man. Guess those two women should not have been teaching and ministering to that young Timothy in the New Testament for these truths are in complete opposition to their false complementarian doctrines. For shame on those women for not following Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Oh, wait a minute, he wasn’t born yet.
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Dave A A wrote:
Uncle Dad maybe?
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Ruth Tucker wrote:
Yes, amen to all you said. And the very definition of the word “head,” such as we see used in 1 Cor 11:3, is very much at the crux of the whole matter.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, that’s okay. You have a good excuse.
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Daisy wrote:
Yeah, the main character and her friend are composites of the woman who followed the courier, the woman who led the team that was killed by the Jordanian suicide bomber, and one other woman.
You’re absolutely right. All this talk about protecting the little women is just that: talk. When push comes to shove, they circle the wagons and think only of themselves and their fellow testo-bros (’cause they’re more holy and all). In other words, wimps. The real men are the ones out there helping people who have been abused – and are not blowing their own horns while doing so
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Lea wrote:
I wish I could have filmed my father’s reaction when he accidentally downloaded an Amanda Quick novel. Priceless!
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Ruth Tucker wrote:
They’re either in denial, or sadly, simply don’t care. This is currently biting them in the backside, though.
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marquis wrote:
Oh yeah…
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Ruth Tucker wrote:
I agree with everything you said, but notice that many complementarians don’t like it when you point out the negative consequences that their gender theology has in real life.
Then cue all the “Not all comps,” or, “A real comp would never blah blah blah…” rhetoric.
Defending complementarianism becomes more important to them than helping people harmed by it, and in considering that complementarianism may be false.
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Lydia wrote:
But that’s putting verses into context, and the guilty parties don’t like that because that leads to proper interpretation which leads to them losing power. Comps are very bad at lifting verses off of the page and ignoring the topic of the chapter and verse, what Paul was referring to, etc. It leads to very bad theology. I cringed once when I heard a guy say about divorce, “But that’s what it says here on the page.” Well, yes and no.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Hey Nancy. Many prayers for you and your husband. I hope he is feeling better soon.
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patriciamc wrote:
HA! I’ll bet.
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Daisy wrote:
Of course they don’t. They’d rather live in happy thoughtless land, where everything works out great. I think I’ve said this before, but one of the problems with this at least as far as marriage goes (the rest is mostly nonsense) is that it works fine probably if you have a kind intelligent husband who realizes that what they promote is nonsense – which is how you end up with these ‘functional egal’ marriages I guess? But those marriages would have been fine anyway. So all you have is a theory that is at best neutral and at worst terribly terribly harmful.
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I have read no further in the post than this tweet by Owen Strachan: ‘He crushed Satan as a man’.
Wow. Heresy right there.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Great link. Definitely worth reading.
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Max wrote:
Or maybe for not standing up to their domineering fathers in order to give them the nurturing that they needed.
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Me too.
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May wrote:
I wonder if Strachan understands what he said. And I wonder what his concept of the Incarnation is. It is hard for me to fathom these CBMW people as to how connected they are to orthodox Christianity, especially as regards the ancient creeds of the Church which attempted to state clearly ‘Who Christ was’ as well as the nature of the Holy Trinity
. . . the CBMW ‘Christology’ seems very flawed in their celebration of the ‘eternal subordination of the Son’, which I would call a form of an early Christian heresy, yes. None of the Churches coming out of Jerusalem in the first century ever preached the ESS teaching, and it is not a part of the Trinitarian doctrines of the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church, no.
CBMW seems more of a ‘cult’ thinking to me, and has taken root in the SBC in defining the status of women, but it has not managed to spread the ‘ESS’ heresy fully into the SBC. I hope it never does. Our Lord deserves better than to be used by a cult in order to ‘put women in their place’
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Dave A A wrote:
Sorry, I check and see who I’ve confused you with!
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@ Nancy2:
I apologize to everyone for my mistake. Uncle Dad’s wife has cancer, not David AA.
Sheesh. I’ve been a bit out of whack the last couple of days!
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BL wrote:
How about examples of women “flourishing” under patriarchy?
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@ BL:
“For the majority of history, cultures, and societal levels – women were not living safe, sheltered, protected lives within the home, while the men were off doing manly things.
Both men and women were usually side-by-side in the fields, working to put food on the table.
…Can anyone provide examples of when their form of patriarchy flourished?”
++++++++++++++++++
I can.
in perusing the ‘about me’ info of many Christian men who have an internet presence, in their lists of favorites, the movie that seems to shows= up more than any other is “Sense and Sensibility”.
I thought it was a little comical.
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@ Daisy:
“…tears over how younger men today are supposedly having a rougher time of things because women are out-performing them in college.
This rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Like, women are being blamed for being more responsible and studying harder, as though this is their fault?”
++++++++++++++++++
I have 1 son (the older) and 2 daughters. I noticed that if my son is hungry, it won’t occur to him to do anything about it. he’ll reach the point of self-pity & moping that dinner isn’t ready sooner.
on the other hand, if my daughters are hungry, they simply cook something for themselves.
(I’ve heard many moms describe this very thing in their son(s)/daughter(s))
but you see, I intervened — now my son cooks dinner for the whole family a few nights a week as part of his contribution.
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elastigirl wrote:
What??? Weird.
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First of all, thanks for posting the Dean Bowring picture. He is a fantastic athlete, although he is an open proponent of PEDs, which I do not support. So, to be honest, I couldn’t stop laughing long enough to take this seriously. I mean I know these kinds of things are serious – Strachan and CBMW have rejected Christianity and raised an idol in its place – but I mean come on. This is freaking hilarious. Should we let Strachan in on the little secret that women also produce testosterone? From their ovaries??? My goodness, I actually have tears on my cheeks. Thanks for the belly laugh this evening!
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dee wrote:
ROFL. You guys are cracking me up tonight!
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Christiane wrote:
Yeah, this. I don’t suppose they realize how pathetic, insecure, and unmasculine they come across. On the other hand, my wife has more character, more brains, and more grit than the whole passle of ’em, so don’t mistake me for saying that he comes across as feminine. That would be an upgrade.
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Paula Rice wrote:
Notice, too, that it’s ‘females’ not ‘women’, but two sentences later, it’s ‘men and boys’, not ‘males’.
How long are these guys going to foist the feminized Christianity shtick on us? I’ve been hearing about it since the early ’90s, when they became weirded-out by mauve/turquoise colors which was fashionable several years before they noticed.
How long does it actually take uber-testosteraddled men to wrest the church back from little old ladies? After all these years, they’re still complainin’.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I can’t think of any women ‘flourishing’ underneath the burden of patriarchy,
but I can very clearly see Josh Duggar as the current Poster-Boy for patriarchy. In what other setting could such a person ‘flourish’, be allowed access, be shielded by the system, be promoted politically by the system, and get away with a double-life that rivals Jeckyl and Hyde in perversity? My goodness I feel sorry for Anna, but she too was brought up to this hell and she is a victim none-the-less, whereas ‘precious Josh’ has made decisions and been given freedoms that led to his own destruction. I hope Anna escapes. I hope Josh wakens to what he has done to others, and repents. I can hope. I think we all must have some hope for good to come for these people in time.
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Leslie wrote:
Ok, serious comments like this make me ashamed for laughing so hard at this post. You are right. Although, I don’t think Strachan is fighting white male entitlement so much as desperately trying to create a brand and earn a lucrative living by supplying a never ending stream of offal to people who will pay good money to fight white male entitlement tooth and nail…
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Patrice wrote:
Oh but they are more than happy to take their money. And encourage them to leave a financial legacy.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
So true! Just look at Russ Moore. His signature issue while Dean at Southern was patriarchy. He was all over the place writing about patriarchy and how comps are wimps.
Now he has a more National position as president of the elrc and his pet issue is now racism. He gets every media opportunity he can get and he never talks about patriarchy. His audience is different so he is selling another issue to promote his brand.
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I wonder if Owen Strachan and his macho mates would be prepared to lay down their lives for feminists and watch bloggers so we too can have a chance at Salvation.
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patriciamc wrote:
Lydia, I found a great quote from Keri Wyatt Kent on why cultural context counts: https://timfall.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/scripture-context.jpg
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I woke up this morning after having gone thru a rough night of pain in my foot from the surgery. Had a good laugh about Strahan. Then now, it’s early evening, and I still laugh. The Bible does say that a merry heart does good like a medicine. I think Nancy2, her husband and I need all the laughs we can get, along with Uncle dad and his wife. From what we’ve been going thru, to hear about holy testosterone, or sanctified or blessed, is just off the wall. What I want for my husband to understand is all that I have gone thru with all my various surgeries (50) and counting, but that will never happen. He laughed with me about the ideal of sanctified testosterone. I keep going on knowing that it will all eventually get better. Tomorrow is our 31st wedding anniversary.
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Max wrote:
I’m thinking their preferred Scripture version may have mistranslated the following verse from Revelation…
“And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”
“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testosterone, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.”
There you have it!
.
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Max wrote:
Who would want to go back to this? Wasn’t this kind of idealizing of a divine order where there are those who must dominate and those who must graciously submit? I think slavery and institutional racism are not so much peculiar, but abominable. And Calvinism in the antebellum American South and early 20th century South Africa would glory in this kind of divine order.
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@ Tim:
Very true! It is one of my pet peeves.
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Mark wrote:
Because they were the ones on top Holding the Whip with God on their side.
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Lydia wrote:
Creflo Dollar private jets and Furtick Mansions are expensive.
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BL wrote:
Talibanistan?
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Mark wrote:
From its inception, Calvinism was all about control. John Calvin’s magisterial reformers persecuted other Christians who would not bow to their belief and practice. Many Anabaptists (whom I believe to be the true reformers) were tortured, imprisoned, and executed by the magistrate (which was linked at the hip with the early Calvinists). If some of these young folks who are being attracted by the new and different could be transported back to the 16th century to observe the roots of ‘real’ Calvinism, they would not be so inclined to join the movement.
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I remember in the 60’s, when we were driving thru Texas late at night in July (we didn’t have air conditioning) listening to a radio preacher explain how if you sent in $$$ you could get a hanky that had been prayed over. So I have to wonder if their bookstores sell Jock straps that have been prayed (preyed) over?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
It’s good to be king and have your own world
It helps to make friends it’s good to meet girls
A sweet little queen who can’t run away
It’s good to be King whatever it pays…
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Max wrote:
Worth a read: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2015/10/27/defending-calvinism-a-qa-with-marilynne-robinson/37984
Money quote from the Pulitzer Prize winning writer:
Q. You are a big admirer of Calvin?
A. Yes.
Q. Why does Calvinism have such a bad name?
A. I am very aware of that. One of the things that of course attracts me to Calvinism is that its reputation is so historically inaccurate and unfair. I mean Congregationalism is a Calvinist tradition, as is Presbyterianism. All the liberal main line churches come out of the Calvinist tradition.
Calvinists in France were the major adversaries of the monarchy, and France had seven religious wars in the course of suppressing the Huguenots, the Calvinists, who finally ended up going into Germany. The Calvinists were the anti-monarchical party in England. They won the revolution, but then the revolution collapsed.
The things that characterize Calvinism on the Continent and in England were very high rates in literacy, education of women, representative institutions. Geneva was a republic. The low countries were republics. And while the Calvinists were in power in England it was a republic also. When the Calvinist side lost the revolution in England, and the Calvinists came here and set up their little democratic civilizations by the standards of the seventeenth century, they again had very high rates of literacy and had very high status for women relative to the times.
The historical reputation is strange because this extreme anxiety toward sexuality, that is the Victorians, that is the Anglican tradition, not the Calvinist tradition. There are certain reputations that I feel I have to defend. This is one.
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@ Max:
I waited to see if some one else would comment on what you wrote here, but no one did.
“New Calvinists want to turn the clock back–not to justify slavery, certainly, but to justify their current authoritarian use of ‘holy’ testosterone in other areas, which ain’t holy behavior at all”
I think that you are giving them too much credit re: slavery. The abusive underpinnings are right there in the Calvinistic theology supporting hierarchy with the submission and subservience of ANYONE below leadership status. This provides the framework for future abuses that could happen pretty quickly given the right political climate. Slavery still exists in many parts of the world and even illegally in this country. It was not that long ago that the Dutch Reform church in South Africa supported apartheid. Doug Wilson only reluctantly backed down from his pro-slavery views. Patriarchy is the default mode of the sin nature and Calvinism could be a useful tool for a return to those “good old days,” with god’s stamp of approval, of course.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
It’s clear overcompensation and everyone outside the Ivory Tower on Lexington Road sees it. I think down inside they know they’re compensating for something, because if you point it out to one of them, they get furious. I come from a blue collar family with a lot of military veterans. They never talk this way about women except in jest.
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Lydia wrote:
Wow. You’re dead on with this comment.
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@ pcapastor:
Well, that is one version of calvinist history, but certainly not all of it. BTW – I do like her fiction.
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Bridget wrote:
Reformed folks have done a good job over the last 500 years to distort the real Calvin and his early followers. They like his systematic theology and determinist God who elects some to be saved (them of course) and others to be damned before they ever draw breath … so they will stand by their man. The thing about it is, that as a Southern Baptist, I have worshiped alongside old-guard Calvinists over the years – I have found them to be civil and they have provided good perspectives to some Scripture. These New Calvinists, however, are a totally different beast … they are arrogant, militant, aggressive, and always stretching the boundaries in belief and practice to accommodate the culture. Their teachings, at times, fall outside Christian orthodoxy (which they claim to have a corner on) … before you know it, one of them will teach that Jesus defeated Satan with holy testosterone!
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To recover your biblical manhood, your testosterone must be sanctified. This has now become a Calvinista sacrament, something necessary for all men to partake in order to be truly ‘Christian’. The name of this sacrament?
Mas Hubris
(“Mas” being Latin for “male” – I don’t know Latin, just how Google)
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JYJames wrote:
*brouhaha*—bro-haha
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Max wrote:
LOL – unfortunately we’ve lived to see the day.
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Back to the “Satan hates testerone. You can’t blame him — after all, he’s seen it used to crush his head” thing.
owen reminds me of my 14 year-old son, routing for his school, and putting down the rival high school.
“Mustangs Rule! Falcons Suck!”
“Really? Why, dear?”
“They just do!”
well that settles it then, doesn’t it.
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klickvic wrote:
Good one.
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@ JeffT:
“To recover your biblical manhood, your testosterone must be sanctified”
+++++++++++++++++++
good grief, they’re reaching. they must be running out of things to talk about.
but you just watch…. I can see all manner of product lines deriving from this totally made-up maxim. ‘testosterone theology’ books and how-to books and studies and retreats-with-speaker and conferences and mugs and thought-for-the-day calendars.
the logo will be the 4 hexagon-thing testosterone molecule with a cross –it will be everywhere: on T-shirts, on black rubber bracelates, on bible covers. people will use it as their moniker, just like Prince and his symbol.
and the test for the watching world will be observing who buys into this sh!t .
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pcapastor wrote:
Except the Episcopalian and Methodist churches which are descended from the Church of England.
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pcapastor wrote:
Believe it or not, I recall an occasion here at TWW when I spoke up in defense of the Calvinist missionaries who settled Hawaii. They put a stop to the practice of human sacrifice and that really does deserve a vote of confidence. I’m a firm believer in giving credit where credit is due regardless of the brand of faith, or even to those who profess no faith at all.
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nancyjane wrote:
I believe you put your finger on the issue right there.
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I’ve posted a new update on the February 18th post….I did not get the job.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/02/18/a-long-time-tww-reader-in-need-of-support-through-gofundme/comment-page-1/#comment-250205
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@ pcapastor:
Democratic?
Not to mention have you read “The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience” by Roger Williams?
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@ pcapastor:
I would suggest some better research on the rules for living everyday life in Calvin’s Geneva his second time around. There were harsh punishments for disagreement with him. Reading his letters I am convinced he was a sociopath.
I continue to be a bit shocked at the attempts to sanitize history. The Reformers where every bit as cruel as the Catholic leaders when it came to those who dissented.
And as to the main lines here, they eventually dropped the focus in determinism and focused on a Social Gospel for the most part. A large proportion of the descendants of the Puritans became Unitarian!
I think our Founders had them in mind when they were debating a Bill of Rights.
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Bridget wrote:
In his scholarly work “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren”, Leonard Verduin (a Calvinist himself), unmasks many of the myths about the Reformation which the mainstream Protestant churches fail to teach. His research, along with others, clearly show that the Anabaptists (the “stepchildren”) were the true Reformers who defended the free church and separation of church and state … many lost their lives doing so.
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Nice to see the 34-year-old Owen Strachan point to his father-in-law’s book as a source that would be “helpful” in understanding testosterone-Jesus.
One should never miss a chance to promote another family member’s book!
Strachan has spent his life in academia and been given one cushy Christian job after another. At 34, he has it all figured out. Sorry, I don’t have much time for his type.
“In addition to his work as CBMW President, Strachan will continue in his role as Assistant Professor of Christian Theology and Church History at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Boyce College. He also serves as the Director of the Carl F. H. Henry Institute for Evangelical Engagement at SBTS and as a Fellow with the Center for Pastor Theologians. Strachan is the son-in-law and former student of past CBMW President Bruce Ware. He trained under eminent complementarian leaders Mark Dever at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D. C., and R. Albert Mohler, Jr. at SBTS, working in President Mohler’s office from 2005-07 as his Editorial Assistant.”
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May wrote:
Yes….for sure. Puzzling too coming from Calvinists.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Snort!
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Lydia wrote:
So was his God, cast in the image of Calvin.
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Max wrote:
They are to Calvinism what the Taliban and ISIS are to Islam.
More Calvinist than Calvin, more Islamic than Mohammed.
And they end up with exactly the same God.
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Yes, that is heretical thoughts… I wonder if he was privately taken to task for it?? This whole CBMW sure dances around heretical theology…
Mae wrote:
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Lea wrote:
I wonder if they think Jesus was a cork bobbing in a sea of estrogen?
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
This is an odd way to phrase something in a bio. If one wants to have influence beyond one’s niche, one would drop the label “complementarian” and just list the leaders. Then again, if all one wants is to be a biggish fish in a very small pond then let the limiting labels flourish.
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patriciamc wrote:
And why I lean toward Anglicanism or Methodism….
And I grew up at the knees of an old school Calvinist…But I grew up….
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@ Mae:
It’s actually not heresy.
While Jesus did defeat Satan “because” he is truly and fully God, he did defeat Satan “as” a man. In fact, everything he did he did both “as” God and “as” a man. We are not able to divide his actions into those that are exclusively human and those that are exclusively divine. To do so would be to lapse into the ancient error of Nestorius and imply that there are two subjects (actors) in Jesus. His divinity gave him the capacity to do some things and his humanity the capacity to do others, but the actions themselves (defeating Satan, hungering, walking on water, etc.) are the actions of the one person, who has both natures. This union must remain unbroken for our salvation to have any ontological grounding.
I’m not into all the CMBW stuff, but his statement is not heretical. The context is very weird, but he has not lapsed into heresy.
Jim G.
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The two nations where Calvinism was most dominant, Switzerland and the Netherlands, are some of the most tolerant nations on earth. They are centers of banking and commerce in large part due to their work ethic and cleanness in government. The New England Puritans in some cases extended women the right to vote a couple centuries before the rest of the United States did. The students of Jonathan Edwards pioneered the anti-slavery movement in the United States.
There’s a very selective reading of history here that gets as tiresome as the tone deafness of the NeoCals. If you go to the Reformation museum in Geneva that’s next to Calvin’s church you won’t find a single mention of the T4G boys.
These guys are Fundamentalists, not really different than other Fundamentalist tyrants except that they’ve wrapped it up in intellectual garb. They’re afraid of democracy and congregationalism because they’re afraid of change. They try to push out any possible heresy through the use of elder rule, and they groom those elders and select them similar to the way the Roman Catholics responded to early Gnostic heresies and persecutions by amplifying the distinction between laypeople and priests and controlling who got to be priests. But as some have noted, the Roman Catholic Church has more internal controls to check abuses.
Calvinism is merely incidental except that I think some of these people may have personal backgrounds that left them very damaged to the point they see the world as cruel and arbitrary, which naturally lends itself to accepting a deterministic or fatalistic view of the world.
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@ Jim G.:
He did it as the Godman, two natures but one person. To say he did is as a man but to omit that man is not a comprehensive descriptor is to omit that he was also God.
He did it as a man is true but only partial truth, there is in that statement error by omission. Whether that is heresy or just sloppy thinking or deliberate obfuscation in the pursuit of testosterone-ism is the question.
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Jim G. wrote:
Weird enough to trigger alarms?
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
“One Hand Washes the Other…”
(Especially if both Hands belong to the same Great House.)
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@ okrapod:
Of course the thinking displayed in the tweet is not complete. I’m with you there. Twitter really isn’t the best medium for deep and reflective thinking. The character limit gets you every time.
I’m fairly certain that he does not deny the divinity of Jesus. That is why the charge of heresy in this case is unfair. Is his statement theologically incomplete? Yes. Is it weird given the context? yes. Is he off base in other areas (notably ESS)? Yes. But he is not espousing Christological heresy.
Jim G.
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okrapod wrote:
If it’s Heresy, it’s Arianism: Christ was not really God but a being subordinate to God. Most current type example are the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who claim Christ pre-existed only as a powerful angel.
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Jim G. wrote:
Hard to get more profound and reflective than “I Made a Poopie!” in 140 chars.
Txtg abbrs, fluttering jazz hands, or no.
Why do you think they call them “Twits”?
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R2 wrote:
Here is a salient illustration of the ‘good’ that arose out of the Calvinist tradition (minus the current Neo-Cal nonsense of course). I firmly believe that it is possible to sift out the good things from any tradition, adopt them as one’s own, and discard the rest.
R2 wrote:
I think you’re right on the money there R2. Calvary Chapel is a good example of this kind of dynamic. Even though they repudiate certain aspects of reformed thought, their church polity and authoritarian heavy-handedness is strikingly similar.
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http://jasonkallen.com/2016/04/5-keys-to-cultivating-biblical-manhood-in-your-church/
I read this, this, this grrrrrr, blog article. Sounds to me like he believes the Bible was written for men, as in MALES only. Would he be satisfied if all females just walked away from church and let them have their little biblical boys club?
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Jim G. wrote:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2015/04/desperately-seeking-womanhood-bruce-jenner-masculine-inferiority/
Have you read this article that Owen Strachan wrote?
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@ Muff Potter:
It is important to know the good/bad angles. That is how we are supposed to learn from history. The Puritans also claimed that alleviating pain in childbirth was Witchcraft and several women were burned at the stake for it. Anne Hutchinson was banished for holding an unauthorized Bible study in her own home. Jonathan Edwards owned slaves and so on.
The two nations/states where Calvinism was most dominant became extremely liberal in their social views. My guess is by an correction.
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@ Jim G.:
I wonder that we tend to do this, too, so it seems natural to do it with Jesus Christ: Separate our material self from our spiritual self.
Not that we are little gods or saviors. No way. But our image of God and what that means.
This stuff is hard to talk about without people taking it wrong.
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Lydia wrote:
I don’t know what you all mean by liberal, but I seem to recall that one of those states led the continent in establishing laws normalizing drugs and perversions and euthanasia, and the other has a banking system replete with secrecy where people who have something to hide can do so while at the same time having been somewhat cozy with the Third Reich back in the day. That may well be an over-correction to rid themselves of some oppressive religious past, or not.
And while I am at it, hooray for an emphasis on literacy, but it was the Moravians who began a revolution in pedagogy based on the radical idea that if the teacher is nice to the child then the child will learn more and more easily.
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Nancy2 wrote:
It would serve them right, honestly.
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Daisy wrote:
Big market as men age, and testosterone fizzles out.
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@ okrapod:
I forgot about the Moravians. And the Quakers later with women functioning in the Body.
I used “liberal” in both good and bad senses. IOW: the opposite of the governing laws of Geneva during Calvin’s second time around consolidated rule of church state. Even the courses served at meals were regulated.
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Nancy2 wrote:
A couple of years ago when an article came out on the numbers of women leaving the church, someone at Scot McKight’s blog noted that she had been on a Calvinist board (Puritan Board maybe) and there, some of the men were saying that maybe it’s not such a bad thing because if a lot of women left the church, men might actually join the church, the implication being that men are so much more holy and more valuable than women.
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Nancy2 wrote:
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@ Lydia:
It is hard to talk about without taking it wrong.
I think that sin – the real thing, not what passes for it in this world – has left us incredibly uncomfortable with both who we are and who God is. As a result, we cannot fathom that the two are compatible. But Jesus breaks all the molds!
Jim G.
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Jim G. wrote:
I think some people use the word “heresy” to mean something that is extremely contradictory to the teachings of and the character of Christianity. Strachan’s comment is most certainly contradictory of the spirit of Christianity.
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patriciamc wrote:
So much wrong with all of this! Bah.
1. Good luck to churches if women leave
2. A pox on the houses of these men who think they are more important and
3. Even Piper is making fun of so called liberal churches by saying they are full of old ladies. As if that is a bad thing. Because woman + old = useless!
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Lea wrote:
But the churches sure do want these women’s money!
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@ Jim G.:
Good grief. He is saying that gender dysphoria is a normal? reaction to feminism (a cultural idea) and also that it is a sin. We can call that viewpoints #1 and #2. The mental health people started out calling it a mental disability and now they say a dysphoria; viewpoints #3 and #4. Some people go with the born that way and therefore OK based on the assumption that anything that is congenital is therefore good and to be celebrated, viewpoint #5. And there is now the designation as a victim of denial of civil rights, viewpoint #6, as they are being used as a cat’s paw for what looks like other people’s political agenda, or so it seems to me. And other people’s religious agenda per Strachan et al.
If Strachan thinks this is new and due to new advances in feminism then he has not done his homework on gender theory or on anthropological differences in other cultures, and any idea that this is new on the face of the earth is not correct. The only thing new about this is what the medical establishment has done with surgery and hormones and what the media and the mob have done in taking up the cause.
Does nobody feel pity for these people? Do we have to (a) condemn them while at the same time (2) rearrange society to accommodate this issue? and (3) engage in nation wide conflict over it? Are we now going to repeat all this with every variation in the book (that would be he DSM 5) just because we do not know what we are doing? Something is vastly wrong here.
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patriciamc wrote:
So those men are willing and happy to take the same chores they brush off on women, like babysitting in the nurseries (assuming any kids will be there), baking in the church kitchen, and cleaning up the kitchen?
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patriciamc wrote:
Without any women around, they won’t really have any one left to boss around, unless they plan on bullying “beta” males?
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5 Key Ways to Cultivating Biblical Manhood in Your Church by J. Allen
http://cbmw.org/topics/leadership-2/5-key-ways-to-cultivating-biblical-manhood-in-your-church/
On the page, Allen claims:
“Many churches are bereft of male leadership…”
Er, what? Most churches (the conservative ones) have nothing BUT male leadership because they don’t allow women to lead.
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Daisy wrote:
Now don’t you be using logic with them, after all, you’re just a female….
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Daisy wrote:
Yeah, I don’t know what he’s saying there either…That is mostly definitely not the problem in church! Unless he is saying their leadership is not good, which I might agree with but has nothing to do with manliness.
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patriciamc wrote:
Most of these articles read like gibberish to me, like they’re written by 19 year old interns and then I find out these are grown married professors and pastors! What on earth!
Like, what is this: “many congregations exist in a settled fog over what biblical manhood should look like”.
Also, all of the problems he lists with things like employment are society problems, not church problems…
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Jim G. wrote:
Hi JIM G.
I wish I had the confidence in these people that you have, but I do not. It seems they played with the ancient heresies surrounding ‘Who Christ Is’ a little too much for the wrong reasons, and I do think that ESS crosses over into Semi-Arianism. As a Catholic, I am greatly alarmed when these CBMW people proposed the ESS doctrine as ‘orthodox’, and I think if they can get away with crossing that line, then they will continue to challenge the integrity of Christology as it has been preserved and handed down by the REAL orthodox Christians . . . the people of the Creeds and the Councils.
ESS is a big red light. It cannot be defended, no. I am glad that you are not a part of it, but I am disappointed that you do not recognize the attack on the integrity of the Church’s Trinitarian doctrines that ESS poses.
Great to see you posting here, if you are the same academic JIM G. who used to post at SBCvoices. I always looked forward to reading what you wrote. I am sorry that we disagree re: ESS as ‘heretical’. Hopefully, given some push-back, the CBMW folks will stop trying to adapt the old and valued doctrines of the early Church Councils in service to their strange and extreme agendas. I hope the dignity of the human person is always upheld in the Church over any kind of authoritarian claims. May it be so.
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The ‘other’ Calvin? The BEST Calvin.
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okrapod wrote:
Nothing new under the sun.
But, evidently it’s always a good day when the patriarchal leaders can blame women for something that men are primarily doing (according to his post).
Quoting from Strachan’s post:
“First, transgenderism is a logical–if remarkable–outcome of feminism. Men today not only are influenced by feminism and aware of it, but actually view becoming a woman as the best possible goal for their lives.
First sentence? Women’s fault.
Second sentence? What men? All men? Says who? Besides Strachan?
Maybe Strachan will explain how the verses in Deuteronomy referencing cross dressing was a direct result of feminism?
And what kills me are the mindless minions who will nod their heads believing that he has spoken something with truth and meaning.
Bald-faced, unsupported, ahistorical, anti-female assertions are not portals of truth and meaning.
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Christiane wrote:
I think you might have misunderstood concerning ESS:
Jim G. wrote:
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Daisy wrote:
Amen!
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Okay, I need some Twitter detectives. I will send many cyber hugs to whoever can find this for me. I’m not super Twitter savvy and I couldn’t find it after about twenty minutes of looking.
Angie left this comment on my most recent post. I would LOVE screen shots of this discussion:
“One other thing. During the recent #CBMW16 conference, Denny Burk and I interacted on Twitter. He as much affirmed, in a style similar to your experience about the woman in a boat, that Mary, sent by Jesus, would not be permitted at his church to proclaim the resurrection to an adult co-ed assembly during the Sunday morning service.”
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@ Sallie Borrink:
So when Mary proclaimed Jesus’ resurrection, she was being anti-biblical.
Bwaaahahahahahah!
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Hi LYDIA,
I do think that the CBMW doctrine of the Eternal Subordination of the Son leans towards heresy, when the proponents of ESS claim that it is ‘orthodox’.
People of my Catholic faith and people of the Eastern Orthodox faith will not see truth in the word ‘Eternal’ in the phrase ‘ESS’. The early Councils fought off Arianism in all of its forms especially when the attacks focused on Christ and on the Trinity. So I perceive the CBMW as scamming people when they use their ESS doctrine to shore up their strange theology of male authoritarianism, especially when they say that Christ models a behavior towards the Father that wives need to copy toward their husbands . . . their man-made ESS theory shows me that they felt they needed more support for their views, but tampering with the ancient Creeds and the REAL orthodoxy of the Church IS a kind of heresy, and for such a pitiful reason, too. I disagree with JIM G. on this, yes.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Haha! It is both funny and pathetic and sad at the same time.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I shared this in a Facebook group and said my head exploded when I read it.
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I don’t even have a Twitter account, but did a Google search for “Denny Burk #CBMW16 Twitter”. I’ve got a snapshot image, but don’t know how to post it here…
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@ Christiane:
ABSOLUTELY. I’ll go you one further. I know I’m being a bit strident, but in my book, it isn’t leaning towards heresy: IT IS heresy, and terrible heresy at that!
Otherwise, **I live your post,** for real. Great observations!
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Sallie, it took place on April 11. It begins with his tweet: “The Gospel has a complementarian structure.” What follows is an exchange with Janey the Small.
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I wonder if this kind of thinking attracts men who have felt powerless in their own lives, either as children, or now as adults. The need to even discuss such silly stuff, rather than just living their lives to love God and others really makes one wonder what could be motivating such drivel/ignorance.
My 6’4″ sweetie has never uttered such ridiculousness about God and testosterone. He’s too busy swinging a hammer or cooking or loving his family and others. Come to think of it, neither my brother, nor my brother-in-laws (all 6 feet and above) have ever said/believed such silly things, while I suspect many of the men espousing, nay, screaming about manhood may feel inadequate in their own actual manhood. Don’t get me wrong, a man who is 3’7″ is just as much of a man as a 7 foot man. NONE of that has anything to do with character or Christlikeness, despite what our fallen culture may want to say. I just wonder if there are men out there who feel inadequate in the way God made them physically so must make up for it by these kinds of illogical statements.
In other words, compensation much?
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Oops, the spelling gremlins got onto my post above: substitute “love” for “live.”
Although I have to admit, from a Freudian pont of view, “live yor post” rocks. Chortle! :DD
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@ Stunned:
THIS. Very astute!!
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@ Christiane:
I think ESS is heresy, too. Confused by your comment to me.
I hope Jim comes back to explain. From my reading of his comments in the past, I thought he disagreed with ESS.
I thought he was originally pointing out that referring to Jesus’ humanity without the corresponding reference to divinity- was not heresy.
But with the Neo Cal crowd it is not unusual for that to stand out to some of us as bordering on ESS since Owen and his father in law pushed it so much.
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@ Christiane: Thanks, Christiane. It is about time a spade be called a spade. If they are not orthodox, they are heterodox. They are going against the early church councils that all branches of Christianity have affirmed for most of Christianity’s history. ESS is heresy.
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patriciamc wrote:
I wonder if Piper realizes, he’s no spring chicken? Time to put all these old dudes out to pasture with the old ladies?? Somehow it escapes these men, that all of us eventually, will become long in the tooth.
What ever happened to the notion gray hairs are an honor?
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@Sallie
He’s saying Mary Magdalene would always be free to obey Jesus at his church, as would anyone else. Even if Jesus called her to preach (David Schell asks)? Jesus does not call people to break his word.
Now, where are my cyber hugs? 😉 😀
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@ Mark:
I agree with what you are saying except the part about all branches of christianity. Not all protestant groups necessarily have anything good to say about even the fact that there were councils much less creeds. In fact, one rather popular theory is that Constantine by participating at Nicea brought the early church to a screeching halt. Like somebody said about something else, it is worse than you can imagine in some circles. And yes, heterodox is a word that needs used from time to time.
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Sallie Borrink wrote:
Well, I guess they know more than Jesus, right? Part of this goes back to their making an idol of Paul and totally mis-reading what he says. They don’t realize you can’t take the Bible apart in bits and pieces; it all flows together.
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To Lydia and Christiane:
I do think ESS is heresy. Plain and simple. I do not think, however, what was tweeted in the OP (that Jesus defeated Satan as a man) is heresy. It is incomplete (He also defeated Satan as God, obviously), but it is not heresy.
I could write a diatribe about ESS. But that’s been done on here many times before.
Jim G.
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Monica wrote:
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Monica!!!!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Okay, I found the thing on April 11, but I cannot figure out how to follow the entire conversation to find all of it.
(I have a Twitter account that I use when I absolutely have to, but I can’t stand Twitter. I don’t even understand how it works to follow a discussion. LOL!)
I can see parts of the conversation, but I can’t find the part I’m looking for. I’ll have to keep clicking buttons and try to find it. LOL!
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jeannette Altes wrote:
I’m sorry 🙁 The right one will come along.
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BL wrote:
Hey you guy commenters of TWW, are you aware that you want to be women?
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Okay, I found it.
Why do people like Twitter? This is the most user-unfriendly thing I’ve experienced. LOL!
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R2 wrote:
This is true, and the real line of demarcation; not “calvinist” theology.
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Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Nor do I, but I still feel sorry for him. No education, no exposure to any real or robust ideas. But most of all, he has shoe-horned himself into a position where he has to continue pimping a false religion in order to get paid. So sad.
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Some in the CBMW camp appear not to be very bright OR very well-spoken. Resorting to manipulating doctrines and claiming their own skewed interpretations of sacred Scripture are ‘inerrant’ are desperate activities that only reinforce the image of an organization with a shallow theology unable to stand on its own when brought out into the light.
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JIM G.
I appreciate you returning to TWW to clarify where you stand. Thank you. The blogging venue is not an easy place to communicate with complete understanding and attempts at clarification are always appreciated. God bless!
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BL wrote:
You raised some good points in your post. One thing I wanted to say about this, especially the part about men wanting to become women.
I could be reading him totally wrong, but he seems to be saying that women have it so sweet – that our lives are so easy – that men are all jelly, and that’s why some of these transgender folks want to become women.
I do think things have gotten a bit easier or better for women (in the USA), but there’s still sexism.
Men don’t know what it’s like to deal with stuff like being afraid to walk alone to your car at night, on the off chance you might get raped. Or feeling afraid to get on to an elevator alone with a strange guy.
Or having a guy harm you if you reject his advances (which does happen. Men have killed women for refusing to date them). Men talk over women and interrupt us all the time, even adults in business settings.
I could go on and on with the negatives there are about being a woman. So Owen can blow it out his hair if he’s saying biological men are motivated to become women because women have life easy-breeze. Women don’t have life easy all the time.
And yes, leave it to a complementarian dude to somehow blame something in the world on women.
“God, it was the woman you created who drove biological men to go through hormone therapy and wear dresses” – Owen S.
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@ okrapod:
I don’t agree with OS. These things are way too complicated for simplistic answers. Gender is not my field.
Jim G.
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Sallie Borrink wrote:
This might be the Twitter conversation you are thinking of:
https://twitter.com/DennyBurk/status/719610388309008385
You might be able to use Storify to post it, and then link to the Storify page, showing her and his Tweets in the order that they happened. I myself do not have a Storify account, so I’m not exactly 100% sure how it works, but I’ve seen other people use it to show Twitter coversations.
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Julie Anne Tweeted this (screen cap with bizarro Tweet from TGC):
https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/725466589362032640
The Tweet by The Gospel Coalition reads:
“It’s more masculine to be attracted to men yet obedient to God than attracted to women and disobedient to God”
Apparently that Tweet by TGC is an ad for an article on their blog with this heading:
“How I Discovered Masculinity”
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Patriciamc wrote:
I do!? Who knew? 😉
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@ Daisy:
I just saw that.
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Daisy wrote:
??????
Can we say, “word salad”?
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Daisy wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Can we say, “BUZZWORD BINGO!”?
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BL wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S0FDjFBj8o
They are for men on the bottom of the heap who can stay second from the bottom by making sure wimmen are the bottom.
Justification for what they were going to do anyway.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yep. Before I even clicked on that, I thought, “I wonder if HUG has linked to that song by Josie Cotton.” You did not disappoint. LOL.
There does seem to be some homo-erotic homo-something undertones going on in their tweet. For people who act like they are clear in gender and gender issues, I found their Tweet a little murky or… I don’t know. Not clear.
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R2 wrote:
I’m sorry, but I have to point this out. I am perplexed by the ongoing claims that this movement is wrapped in intellectualism or has anyone who would rightfully be considered an intellectual.
I’m not trying to be mean and I’m not insulting anyone’s intellect whatsoever, but would someone be willing to point out any particular evidence of this being an intellectual group or even among the educated elite? Or even academically gifted beyond merely being involved with academia itself?
Again, not trying to insult ANYONE but I find calling oneself an intellectual (or having friends point to you and claim you are an intellectual) is seldom the M.O. for an intellectual crowd. About half of my crowd is Ivy Leaguers yet not one of them would consider themselves an intellectual. (And only one “legacy”among them.) The only person I know well who I would consider an intellectual is a person who the Mensa society approached and invited to be part of their group. (And he’s perplexed why people think he’s smart. Smart people don’t always get stuff. ☺ ) The rest, despite their successful academic careers and despite going to some of the top schools in the world, would not consider themselves intellectuals. They’re not stupid and probably much smarter than the average and a few/many are legit geniuses but still wouldn’t wear a cloak which read, “Intellectual.”
So why do we consider this group intellectuals? (Again, not insulting their intelligence, just the label they have mysteriously acquired despite any evidence that I am aware of.)
I looked up Albert Mohler, the supposed smartest of the group and I found he graduated from Samford University. (Not Stanford, which would make me say, “Yeah, maybe he’s an intellectual,” but Samford.) I had never heard of that school so I looked into it further. According to Samford itself, it’s Alabama’s top-ranked private university.
Now, before I go on my rant, let me just say that I do NOT necessarily associate formal education with intelligence, whatsoever. So often it’s a matter of fortune which would allow one the opportunity of a formal education instead of having to work to support yourself or your family or instead of being too sick to attend school, etc. And though I used to equate having a doctorate with being very smart, I have now known enough of them that I realize some are smart and the others just have the opportunity to keep putting one foot in front of the other with someone footing their bill so they could take the time to achieve their top degree. Some are wildly smart while others are of mediocre intelligence. Though a doctorate from an academically rigorous institution I would take as indication of high intelligence, while the lack thereof does not necessarily indicate stupidity. I wouldn’t be surprised if the smartest person on earth is a shepherd/shepherdess somewhere in Mongolia whom we will never hear of. Neither do I value intellect above any other gift like the color of your eyes or the ability to hit a jump shot. None of these things are synonymous with worth or human value and I find it a crying shame that as a society we have decided that a gift like this should mark one person as more valuable than someone without a lot of academic smarts. It’s something God has chosen to bestow on some and it doesn’t mean they are better or have higher worth. Scripture is quite clear that God values a humble heart full of love, not someone with smarts or not. I suspect intellectual snobbery turns God off as much as it does me.
That being said, back to the question of this group somehow being considered intellectuals, with Al Mohler their supposed smart man leader.
According to the Samford University’s own website, Samford is Alabama’s top rated private university.
For starters, I’m sure Alabama is a beautiful state and it is full of very smart people. Probably smart and successful and wonderful people. However, their learning institutions aren’t quite considered among the best in the world, let alone the nation. From what I understand, Alabama’s school system is ranked number 39 in the nation (out of 51 states and DC.) Mohler grew up in Florida, which is ranked number 23 in state school systems and, for a time, attended Florida Atlantic University, a public uni in FL. Now, I am not saying that there are not very smart people who go to this school, but it would not necessarily convince one of Mohler’s intellectualism nor point to any particular academic rigor. For some reason Mohler moved from the 23rd rated state in educational school systems to the 39th. Again, not saying people who go there are not outrageously smart, we just can’t point to this as proof that he is necessarily an intellectual.
Now, move forward to Samford’s claim that they are the top rated private university in the state of Alabama. Why did they stick the word “private” in there? If it were the top rated university in the state, they would not have had to introduce the word, “private,” would they? So I looked that up. Turns out Samford University didn’t even make the top ten list in the state for universities. (Actually, their 2010 acceptance rate was 83%. I would not be surprised if some community colleges have a rate similar to this.)
With this data, I’m still not finding any evidence that this guy or this group (if he indeed is their intellectual leader, as has so often been said) can be called intellectuals. He’s in a not-even-top-ten-school in a state ranked 39 in education. He grew up in the 23rd ranked state and pursued his undergraduate education in places with even lower rankings. Oftentimes, someone who is an intellectual would pursue a top five or top ten school in the nation, if not the world.
After looking at the school where he studied theology and is now the president of, I’ve found that it is one of the largest seminaries in the world with an acceptance rate of 72%. I have absolutely nothing against this school, but as every man who has married into my family for 3 generations has been enrolled in seminary (until recently when I finally bucked that mold/mould!), and I’ve never even heard of it, it may not indicate that it is held in the highest regard academically, at least. Not to say it doesn’t have WONDERFUL people there, I’m just still trying to look for evidence as to why this man/this movement would be considered the intellectuals of modern Christianity/theology. (However, after looking them up I found the wonderful news that this seminary bucked the Kentucky system in the 1950’s and integrated itself! Then invited MLK jr to give a speech there, too. Way to go!!!)
So, I am finding no data which would prove out any particular reason why this guy/this movement could/would be considered intellectual, other than someone slapped that label on them (self slapped, maybe?)
May I suggest that if no one is able to step forward with adequate proof to the contrary, we might consider that this label is something put out there to impress us (never something God is impressed with, from what I understand, just something mankind is), then eschew calling them intellectuals from here on out?
I’m not really a fan on dishonest/unnecessary propaganda.
Thanks for tolerating my rant. I just can’t stand seeing that word thrown around without any proof.
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Stunned wrote:
I guess CJ’s opinion doesn’t count as adequate proof? 😉
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🙂
@ Bridget:
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Stunned wrote:
I just want to give R2 credit for using the phrase “intellectual garb”. I could dress up in Native American garb, but that won’t make me Sacagawea!
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🙂 Definitely no gripe about R2! Many seem to call them that. Though I’d probably replace the word with “tedious”.
Said the woman who just wrote a long diatribe herself
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Christiane wrote:
I was thinking that today. Also, there’s nothing wrong with being proud of being male or reading books about being a man, etc., but the comp leaders go on and on and on about maleness to the point that I have to go, “Hmmm.” I’ll just leave it at that.
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So, let me see. Stunned is absolutely correct. I see no intellectual rigor in these people or their educational backgrounds. They remind me of those professional carnival hawkers who end up on TV selling substandard products by the sheer energy of their presentation. Even worse than that, to my mind, is that they lack originality. What they push is mostly just disagreement with other people, especially if the other people are themselves intellectuals or leaders in other denominations or worse yet fathers of the church historically.
Somebody more informed than I could also address the pitiful state of their political agenda, if one can even call it that. This nation and this world have enormous problems and the only stance these people can come up with is to assume that the only way to survive is to pick one or several groups and suppress them. That would be suppress, it would not be offer something better because they have no ideas apparently of what something better might be. All they seem to do is point fingers and condemn loudly.
And now they drop this bomb, admit their Achilles heel, explain in common words a real and genuine problem they have: their men want to be women because they think that women have the power. They have no concept that there is male power and there is female power and there is shared power because in their world power is defined as ‘better than.’ This causes a problem for them because not enough people will admit that the only power is male power and especially will not admit that the only real male power is the kind that they wish they had but feel that they do not. That kind of power that they think they need but do not have would be oppression and condemnation and whining(?). What is that if not the two year old cry baby who turns into the four year old bully and in their case is proud if he brings home a C on his report card but whupped somebody on the playground.
I told you people that I am part of the south and the southern cultures at least linguistically, so let me say it. “Bless their hearts and their pointy little heads, they just can’t help it. They haven’t been quite right for as long as I can remember. Some say they got dropped on their heads as babies, but I knew their grandmother and there hasn’t been a generation in memory in that line that did not have some kind of problem. All I can say is (noticeable inhalation of air accompanied by knowing look) enough said.”
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, I think there’s a subset of the gay male population who seem to hate women. It sort of made me think of that.
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Well this is a first. I seem to have been blocked from the TGC Twitter page!
I was responding to the latest nonsense reported by Mortification of Spin here
http://www.mortificationofspin.org/node/39776?utm_source=Mortification+of+Spin&utm_campaign=b64a9defc8-Mortification+of+Spin+combined&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_8878352885-b64a9defc8-119263361
And I tweeted this as a response.
“@TGC It doesn’t make you more masculine, it simply makes you obedient. The testosterone has clearly gone to your head(ship)!”
It lasted all of five minutes before it disappeared.
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Stunned wrote:
Indeed, there is not enough Christlikeness in the New Calvinism movement to assign them that label.
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Though I only comment here like, once a year, I have to say that this (other, oh there are so many, it’s hard to keep track) silly sounding tweet seems to be based off of a short article written with a bit of sensitivity and willingness to be a bit vulnerable. Whether I disagree with this guy’s conclusions or not, I really respect his willingness to be as open as he was, especially in a culture that doesn’t always seem to value openness. Kudos to him on that front. I suspect it wasn’t easy to write.
That being said, the tweet was still busted. “More masculine”? What makes these guys SO obsessed with defining masculinity? Why can’t they just BE masculine and shut up about it. Why do they have to make rules about it? Who or what are they trying to prove and to whom are they trying to prove it? I don’t have to prove that the color red is red. It just is. What is the basis of their fear (for have no doubt, fear is playing a pivotal role in this for much if not all of the leadership) and why are they holding onto it rather than allowing God to be God and let Him work out what masculinity means in each of His children’s lives? For one it’s about care and gentleness, for another it’s about ripping telephone books (I assume. Silly to me, but whatevs.)
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@ Stunned:
It’s equally hard to find what and where he studied at Oxford University. His bio only says he “did research” there.
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lowlandseer wrote:
Hee. I like that. I find this whole group fascinating in a crazy making way, but I am so tired of seeing these nonsensical nonwords like ‘headship’ (which makes me envision a flying spaceship shaped like a head more than anything) and ‘compentarianismism’ thrown around like they mean anything. All they really mean is ‘Submit, Woman!’. Pass.
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Stunned wrote:
Exactly. There is not a true “intellectual” among them. The New Calvinism movement is cluttered with easy-to-get doctorates from institutions that would not be considered among the top centers of higher learning. Just because one has a doctorate, the gift of gab, and a master of one-liner novel tweets, doesn’t mean he is very smart. Indeed, the fact that so many are so easily sucked into the vortex of New Calvinism, following a strange collection of celebrity leaders, is proof that the NC masses aren’t very smart. I have examined several of the popular New Calvinist books at a local Christian book store. I wouldn’t call any of them scholarly works, nor their authors scholars. I don’t mean to insult anyone’s intelligence, but they have insulted mine!
The genuine church of the living Christ is built on revelation, not education. But, even if the New Calvinist who’s who were educated at Ivy League universities, education doesn’t produce one ounce of revelation. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with education – I even have some – but the learning the YRR are getting at some seminaries is indoctrination, not education. New Calvinism is a successful movement because its followers are gullible and, thus, not very smart. It’s leaders, on the other hand, are smart enough to pick their pockets.
Observers of the first century Church marveled that its leaders were unlearned men, but took note that they had been with Jesus. There is not enough evidence to convict most of these folks that they have been with Jesus. Indeed, they don’t even drop His name much. They may talk a lot about “God”, but their Calvinist God is not the one I know.
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I copied and pasted this from a previous thread, in reference to what John said about God’s glory/holiness being the most important thing.
Patrice wrote:
One more thing. I certainly do not believe that God hates. Why would He? His purity and goodness is not impinged by evil. There is no evil great enough
Nancy2 wrote:
I believe God hates the sins we commit, but he loves us. Even we can love someone, while hating the things they do. Hey, Moses was a murderer.
If God’s glory/holiness is the most important thing, that would mean Jesus suffered and died, not for our salvation, not out of love and mercy for us, but to magnify God’s glory/holiness.
If we should strive to be more like God/Jesus, that we mean we should strive to increase our own glory/holiness and love of self would be our most important goal. The fruits of the spirit, if they were produced, would only be side effects of our glory/holiness.
Nancy2 on Thu Apr 28, 2016 at 08:52 AM said:
@ Nancy2:
If this is what the YRR movement is all about, then the behavior of these deceptive, arrogant, power-hungry preachers makes more sense to me now than ever!
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lowlandseer, you’re a better researcher than I! I never came across any mention of Oxford in all I did. That would be an interesting component (if it’s not spin or twisted truth), pointing to some possibility that he could be “intellectual”. (PS. What does that even mean?)
So did his research mean that he went into their library on his own and read stuff or was he invited there, personally, by Oxford? Was it because they let in any college president (don’t know if that’s what they do or not) or was it because something about him made them think he was super smart and they needed his help in ground breaking research? Was it an invite by another professor or was it the head of a department who … who actually knows? Still, a throw away that he did research at Oxford could mean something or it could be super misleading.
I have a story about research invites that still makes me smile but I’m resisting. Imagine older, snotty regents and a cool high table. Ah, I hated academia for the most part but there were a few good moments.
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Exactly. God is after the heart, after all.
Max wrote:
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Where did the new post about Bent Tree go?
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Stunned wrote:
I read an article by Mohler the other day (I try to keep an open mind) and suddenly it dawned on me that there is a pseudo-intellectualism about this crowd. They frequently use obscure language to obfuscate the fact that they are not making any real sense. Piper quotes have been showing up on FB that sound thoughtful but have no real clear meaning. The article in question was so dis-jointed that it was irritating trying to read it. I’ve thought in the past that “wow, these people are so much smarter than me” but now I’m of the opinion that if they were as smart as they think they are their writing would make sense. On the other hand, if someone with C.J. Mahaney’s high academic standing says someone is smart, it must be so.
Dr. Fundystan had this to say: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/11/20/mohler-mahaney/#comment-120373
“As a student at SWBTS I never got the “Mohler is smart” thing that seemed to be aggressively promoted at every possible turn. Maybe it is because I come from a very educated family, or maybe it is my innate skepticism, but to me this is just another version of the “I can beat you up” mentality we see in immature men. And the frustrating thing is that if Mohler is so brilliant, he certainly doesn’t possess the ability to communicate it in any meaningful way. Read his blog, and you will see a string of superlatives (his incessant use of the words “breathtaking” and “astonishing” are nauseating), with very little actual argument or critical thinking. And his books are not written to thinkers, or even those with a reading comprehension level above maybe 4th grade. I am not judging him for this, only pointing out that I have yet to see any evidence that Mohler has any kind of special mental capacity.”
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FW Rez wrote:
I can honestly say I have never thought this listening to any of this crowd. I too have been perplexed to hear them labeled as intellectuals. This goes triple for the CBMW crowd, how sound like college interns who aren’t trying particularly hard to me.
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FW Rez wrote:
This is the other side of the coin. There are people running these divinity schools and then there are pastors with no education or with ‘honorary’ phds they apparently gave themselves. Bizarre.
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Max wrote:
Lea wrote:
Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
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Sallie Borrink wrote:
I was wondering that, too! I’m tired and under a lot of stress, but I didn’t think I imagined it.
Wow. A good news, praise post ….. And it went up in smoke.
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@ Stunned:
What I did find was this comment on Internet Monk which you can find here
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/30009
It reads
“From what I can find out, he does seem to have solid enough qualifications. If anything, I find that *more* worrying – he’s a man who has clearly come into contact with a whole range of Christians and Christian thought and yet somehow believes that you can’t manage to remain a Christian without affirming a historical Adam? Surely he’s noticed the ones who have managed it in all his studies and travels?
(Pedantically, the only references to Oxford I can find are those relating to ‘having done research’ which suggests to me that he was a visiting scholar granted access to resources rather than someone who was actually part of the university or given any accreditation – else there would be a degree, college/department or title in there. Not that they are free with their resources to just anyone, mind)”
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Stunned wrote:
I agree that CBMW and TGC bunch don’t seem too intellectual. They remind me more of what C.S. Lewis called “men without chests”, those who are distinguished not by abundance of smarts, but by lack of generosity and human emotion. Superficially, they have an appearance of rationalism, of being above sentiment. But the truth is, they’re not so much above emotion, as they are outside it.
In Lewis’ words, “Their heads are no bigger than the ordinary: it is the atrophy of the chest beneath that makes them seem so.”
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@ FW Rez:
false. He’s the smartest man on the planet!
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I think some people seem to see lack of emotion as proof that they are both rational and logicical. It’s not.
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Stunned wrote:
THANK YOU for writing this.
Do you know why people say this? Because those folks have found a way to get paid well for writing books, writing blog posts and speaking at big conferences so they can do it full time. That’s why. In the evangelical world, that is enough to make you look like an intellectual.
I graduated from the honors college of a public ivy and qualify for Mensa. I don’t consider myself an intellectual (although I think I could have been a real intellectual if I had had the opportunity for graduate level work). I am, however, fairly certain if I could find a way to get paid what they do and I could study and write full time as they do, I could convince the evangelical church that I’m an intellectual, too.
(Well, except the woman thing which would automatically disqualify me. But you get my point.)
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Stunned wrote:
I have done research at Vanderbilt. The Austin Peay State University library did not have what I needed, so I was given access to the library on the Vanderbilt campus.
Maybe in my resume, I should say that I have done research at Vandy! Yeah, baby. Yuk, yuk, yuk.
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Mr Mohler is also said to have studied at the St Meinrad School of Theology.
See this
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/10/know-your-evangelicals-albert-mohler
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Nancy2 wrote:
Let’s go Peay! Heh.
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@ Jim G.:
If I understand everyone aright here, I think Mae’s point was that Strachan is claiming Jesus to be a man as opposed to a woman rather than a man as opposed to God. So although the old hoo-ha’s about ESS and the hypostatic union do surface from time to time when “comp vs egal” rears its head, this is – AFAIK – more to do with the other old hoo-ha about whether women have souls, are meaningfully created in God’s image, or indeed on how far redeemed a woman in Christ is.
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@ Jim G.:
Truth: Jesus was/is God; Jesus was a man; Jesus defeated Satan.
There is a form of false teaching which is an over-emphasis of truth – falling outside the bounds of normal orthodox Christian belief. Jesus did not defeat Satan with human testosterone, but by the blood of a sacrifice sent by God, who was God Himself. New Calvinism is stretching the boundaries of orthodoxy to capture the minds of a generation who will be our Christian leaders tomorrow – God help us.
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@ Serving Kids In Japan:
Yup
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On the subject of being an intellectual. I remember this from college, and not just because I am not an intellectual. An undergrad philosophy professor once quoted somebody or other to the class, and the quote was essentially that a philosopher can go down farther, stay down longer and come up drier than anybody else. IMO if you like deep and long and dry well there you go. OTH, the intelligences which play well and sell well and survive a long time encompass a much wider range than that.
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Lydia wrote:
Agreed. Unfortunately, the YRR movement has given the rest of Christendom plenty to talk about by the way they frame their thoughts. I suppose it was Piper who first created the Twitter one-liners that they all feel they must now top. You have arrived if you can post something that gets re-tweeted hundreds/thousands of times across cyberspace. Most of these posts are just “Wow-Daddy” lines sent to capture the attention of a crowd – to gain notoriety and popularity. The one-liners don’t contribute much of anything to building the Kingdom on earth, but go a long way to establishing celebrity status in the movement.
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patriciamc wrote:
That line of thinking is what prompted yesterday’s humor post about smart women and the men who are threatened by them: Christian Dating Tips – the one to avoid.
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Tim wrote:
I just saw a Christian Mingle parody video somebody linked today where they were doing home visits to see if people were really ‘christian’. It was pretty funny and I was amused in sort of a sad way that the man was approved and the women rejected, in part for wearing yoga pants. Ha.
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@ Lea:
Here is the link if that’s allowed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAyViQbhYgI
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Normally I’m bored with such parodies but this one was awesome!
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Stunned wrote:
“You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries
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Stunned wrote:
I was trying really hard to read the other church descriptions on the clipboard. One had to do with a coffee shop heh.
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Daisy wrote:
They just keep handing me straight lines…
I think the homo-something undertones come with the Comp territory. Any male-supremacist culture is going to feel a pull towards and push away from male homosexuality.
Pro: Since women are livestock (with benefits), the only way to Make Love(TM) with another person is with another man. “Women for breeding stock, men for love, boys for pleasure.”
Con: Yet someone has to be the “woman” on the bottom getting penetrated, and every Real Man HAS to be the Penetrator. Like prison rape culture, the Penetrated becomes the hated “fag”. “Homophobia: the fear that someone stronger might use YOU as you use a woman.”
And when you throw in a strong homosexuality taboo like Leviticus… The usual workaround is Men of Power get to do it as a privilege of rank with a lot of “what the real meaning of ‘is’ is” casuistry.
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Bridget wrote:
Too HUMBLE(TM).
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Tim wrote:
That’s a good one! Since society is becoming so extreme, what was once parody is now reality! This kind of guy is exactly what egalitarian Christian women have to be on guard against.
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Lea wrote:
Very funny! I didn’t know any of those Christian artists!
There are also a couple of Christian Mingle parody videos by Tripp and Tyler. They’re Christians who do hilarious videos on youtube. They’ve done two on Christian Tingle, and their webinar in real life video is hysterical.
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okrapod wrote:
HA! What an excellent and apt metaphor!
Wanna know what happens to ya’ if ya’ try that same approach in say Mathematics?
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Tim wrote:
For the life of me I could never understand why some men feel threatened by smart women. I think smart women very sexy.
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Muff Potter wrote:
What happens?
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Harley wrote:
Happy anniversary! And I wish you a speedy recovery as well.
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okrapod wrote:
They’ll have you for lunch.
As you probably know, math is a very rigorous discipline, there are no loose ends allowed, and it must have 100% internal consistency by iron-clad proof. Such is not the case with philosophy.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Yes, word salad. Or maybe honeymoon salad, as in “lettuce alone without any dressing.” 😉
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Patriciamc wrote:
I will check those out!
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Stunned wrote:
If Mohler has only “done research” at Oxford, that implies he was not a visiting fellow; visiting fellows do more than haunt the stacks. He might have had “recognised student status,” basically permission to do research without much oversight, but I doubt that.
Speaking of haunting the stacks, most of the libraries at Oxford are quite secure. People can’t just waltz in and grab a book off the shelf as they can in the US. At Oxford, people need to present a valid university ID. A great many of the books are in closed stacks. There used to be a sweet little train that ran underneath Broad Street, with books as the quiet little passengers.
My best guess: Mohler might have been part of an educational tourist group that spent a few days at Oxford, learning about the educational system.
Unless he stipulates an Oxford college affiliation, a fellowship, a degree, a certificate, or other explanation, I think he’s giving us a BS.
And not a BSc (Oxon).
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Impotent arguments from impotent, desperate little boys.
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Muff Potter wrote:
My wife did her grad work in mathematics, taught full time at a Pac 12 university, she just didn’t take calc and statistics and probability, she taught all that. I once took a PhD philosophy seminar while attending grad school in another discipline. They pretty much worshiped at the altar of hard scientists, they were so in awe of people like my wife. When I related to her what we were learning about in the PhD seminar she listened a bit and said “They’re wannabes, there’s no rigor in their reasoning.”
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
There’s a strong homoerotic backbeat in the YRR/hard core complimentarian movement. If you’re paying any attention, it’s so strong, it almost drowns out the main tune. The movement is filled with wounded, profoundly damaged men who have the emotional maturity of a small child and who very often had horrific father-son relationships. They yearn for male intimacy, they tend to treat the little lady like a thing, a baby production service, chattel, a sex object. They tend to struggle, in my anecdotal experience, with hatred of women, but they gravitate to their dudebros, and they nigh on worship their male celebrities. The Beatles circa 1965 did not receive more squealing excitement or love from the crowds than the average YRR celeb at a T4G conference. No one can convince me there aren’t those undertones.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I once happened to be driving by Dartmouth University during spring graduation, saw the geniuses in caps and gowns and hoods and all. That should count for something, I should spin that and put it on my bio like Mohler and his alleged Oxford encounter.
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rhondajeannie wrote:
No way, you weren’t predestined, you’re all damned to eternal perdition–otherwise, you wouldn’t be feminists and watch bloggers and other enemies of the True Gospel. Res Ipsa Loquitur.
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Law Prof wrote:
I went to the Oxford campus in high school on a trip. I didn’t realize I could put it on my resume! Good to know.
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@ Daisy:
If you read the article linked to that tweet, the writer states: I started to see God had wired into me truly masculine traits—such as compassion for the marginalized, a desire to protect and care for the weak, and a resilience to follow and obey Christ.
How on earth are these boys-only traits?!?!
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Anonymous3 wrote:
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@ Law Prof:
Yeah, what you said.
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Stunned wrote:
The university where I teach is three times the size of Stamford and SBTS put together and has a far lower acceptance rate than either, but I sure don’t feel intellectual. I have colleagues who went to Harvard, Yale, Duke, Vanderbilt, Emory, Tulane, UT-Austin. Other than at faculty banquets where they read a few superlatives (based on actual, documented accomplishments) before handing the faculty member an award as they squirm with embarrassment, I never hear the kind of glowing praise one hears and regularly sees bestowed upon the likes of Mohler and Piper. None of the true intellectuals with whom I rub shoulders are all that taken with themselves, and if you poured too much praise on them, such as Mohler gets regularly, they’d shut you down. This is because they actually are intellectuals rather than fakirs and poseurs like Mohler.
The reason Mohler is considered an intellectual is because his sycophants have never known a true intellectual and due to the Great Man myth so necessary to their cult. He must be a hero, he must be a brilliant intellectual, a personage, a righteous prophet, a holy icon. The young, restless and reformed are for the most part not involved in Christianity at all, they are into idolatry, and they crave idols. There is no room in their theology for simple men and women who are flawed and not at all great, following a great God who died for them. That God stuff for many of them is just a prop, a tool enabling them to get to the real thing: idol worship.
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Law Prof wrote:
Yes! Ain’t that the truth!!!
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Anonymous3 wrote:
These traits are not male-only – in my experience, these traits are more commonly demonstrated by women in the church. Personally (and as a guy), it takes a serious effort to live out these traits day-to-day. I wish that complementarian churches did emphasize compassion, care of the weak, etc., but they do not. Instead, their focus is culture wars, “correct” theology, and power. It is a real disservice to men in the church.
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Stunned wrote:
The real sin of most of these men is arrogance.
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Lea wrote:
Amen and Amen! It is the root sin from which all other failings of New Calvinism springs. It is the primary characteristic of the NC celebrities; the identifier which comes first to mind when asked to describe these men.
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@ Law Prof:
Oh yes. To me it looks embarrassingly obvious, but I have never been a man and I kept thinking that I might be mistaken.
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I just went to Ordinary University, but I have lots of ivy on the back forty. Maybe I can play that into something on my CV.
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Stunned wrote:
One has to wonder.
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@ Stunned:
He could have gotten a pass to use one of their libraries for a day or two, maybe…
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okrapod wrote:
I’ve been a man for a very long time and anytime a man tries desperately hard to prove up his masculinity, he is invariably desperately insecure about it. Of course, same goes for intellect or faith. When Mohler gladly basks in the glow of intellectual superiority that followers heap upon him, and allows a fawning, overblown bio page to be produced in his honor, he is demonstrating that he knows full good and well he’s inadequate and intellectually stunted. When a church or pastor, such as Driscoll/Mars Hill proclaims “It’s all about Jesus” again and again, like a mantra, they only demonstrate that for them, it’s hardly at all about Jesus.
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numo wrote:
Not easy:
http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/using/getting-a-readers-card
Getting a reader’s card (Bodleian Card)
If you are currently attached to an Oxford University institution (as an employee, student, or academic visitor), your blue University card serves as your reader’s card (or Bodleian Card).
If you are not a current member of Oxford University, then you will need to apply for an external reader’s card, or Library card, at the Admissions Office. Access to the Bodleian Libraries is a privilege, and the Bodleian Libraries have the right to refuse to issue a reader’s card where there is good reason to do so. If you are granted a reader’s card, it is free for Oxford University graduates, readers who want to access the Weston Library, and current members of other UK universities; otherwise, charges may apply.
Then there’s this (see Wikipedia):
Admission
Before being granted access to the library, new readers are required to agree to a formal declaration. This declaration was traditionally an oral oath, but is now usually made by signing a letter to a similar effect. Ceremonies in which readers recite the declaration are still performed for those who wish to take them; these occur primarily at the start of the University’s Michaelmas term. External readers (those not attached to the University) are still required to recite the declaration orally prior to admission. The Bodleian Admissions Office has amassed a large collection of translations of the declaration allowing those who are not native English speakers to recite it in their first language. The English text of the declaration is as follows:
I hereby undertake not to remove from the Library, nor to mark, deface, or injure in any way, any volume, document or other object belonging to it or in its custody; not to bring into the Library, or kindle therein, any fire or flame, and not to smoke in the Library; and I promise to obey all rules of the Library.
This is a translation of the traditional Latin oath (the original version of which did not forbid tobacco smoking, though libraries were then unheated because fires were so hazardous):
Do fidem me nullum librum vel instrumentum aliamve quam rem ad bibliothecam pertinentem, vel ibi custodiae causa depositam, aut e bibliotheca sublaturum esse, aut foedaturum deformaturum aliove quo modo laesurum; item neque ignem nec flammam in bibliothecam inlaturum vel in ea accensurum, neque fumo nicotiano aliove quovis ibi usurum; item promitto me omnes leges ad bibliothecam Bodleianam attinentes semper observaturum esse.
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Muff Potter wrote:
I apologize for being a broken record, but case in point:
“An Open Letter to Rey”
http://warhornmedia.com/2016/03/07/an-open-letter-to-rey-from-star-wars/
Summary of that page: “women of the world, stop being so smart or competent, it makes me, a man, feel useless, inept, and stupid”
I could not, for the life of me, ask another person (or entire group of people) to intentionally water down their intelligent, talents, or personalities to make me feel better about me.
That is so lame and a level of insecurity I don’t understand, and I can sometimes be a little insecure myself.
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Daisy wrote:
I meant “intelligence”
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Anonymous3 wrote:
I’m with you.
Just a moment before reading your post, I tweeted at the one guy who Tweeted at Julie Anne who was supporting the TGC tweet.
I asked him if he considers being “obedient to God” to be a masculine trait, because that is what the TGC Tweet was suggesting. (I didn’t read their article, though.)
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Daisy wrote:
That looks like parody, and good parody at that. It is parody, isn’t it?
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Law Prof wrote:
Agreed.
Btw, I am thin. I am thin. I am thin.
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@ Daisy:
Eh. I feel certain I would be bored to tears by any man like that so I suppose it’s no great loss…
I agree with those above, some of these people are desperately insecure. I think the others just want someone to boss around.
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@ Friend:
I believe back in the day it would have only taken an ID but not necessarily one related to the uni. Really depends on the time period I suspect.
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Stunned wrote:
Good points.
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Stunned wrote:
Because he isn’t. I know; I’ve met him. I’m not insulting him; it just is. He’s trying to compensate.
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Speaking of Al Mohler, Baptist News Global today has a report on his thoughts about Dennis Hastert. From the article:
“Wednesday’s sentencing of former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert in a hush money case involving sexual abuse serves as a lesson for all, says a Southern Baptist seminary president criticized two weeks ago for introducing a speaker publicly identified with similar allegations at a preaching conference.”
https://baptistnews.com/2016/04/28/mohler-says-hastert-conviction-a-morality-tale/
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Stunned wrote:
The Bod card has been around for decades, the oath even longer, and it’s a big deal. Oxford protects its collections for the use of Oxonians.
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@ Friend:
Oops. I got that wrong.
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Law Prof wrote:
Todd Wilhelm did a post on this characteristic some months ago complete with audio clips of the abnormal flattery that appears to be the norm in their circles. This by itself indicates a warped system.
https://thouarttheman.org/2016/02/22/mahaneyspurgeon/
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@ Law Prof:
The guy who wrote it is serious.
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Bill M wrote:
First saw it 20 years ago in Minneapolis at a March for Jesus through the streets of downtown Minneapolis, culminating in a rally in the parking lot of Piper’s church where the main event on the program was listening to Piper and two other like-minded pastors of large churches in downtown Minneapolis mount the platform and heap sickening amounts of praise on each other. Quite a racket, you could feign humility while you were basking in the praise, then take your turn at the podium and shout the praises of the other two–a quid pro quo arrangement if ever I saw one. The rest of us thousand or so lesser lights sat in our folding chairs watching these men really enjoy their praise, then give a perfunctory talk about that Jesus thing. No questioning, though, what the event was all about.
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The head of one of the schools at Cambridge invited me to do research there for a short period (for real, no joking) and I don’t recall giving any ID beyond my ID from home. This was eight years ago. I had assumed Oxford was the same way.
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Stunned wrote:
Ooh, you must have had so much fun! 🙂
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In the dorkiest way possible, 🙂 But I stayed in a hostel where the window was constantly open and it was COLD and wet and after just a few days I was so tired that I was nearly punchy. All in all, not a bad place to be tired. 🙂 I remember driving around one of the roundabouts and suddenly forgetting A) which side of the road I was supposed to be driving on and B) which exit to get off of, so I just kept driving in circles, laughing hysterically until I could pull myself together enough to clearly steer in the right direction. (Who am I kidding? I probably had to turn around a few more times before I could figure out which exit.) Thanks for celebrating my dork-a-licious academic fun with me!
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Lea wrote:
That was great! Since we’re kinda sorta tangentially talking about the subject, here is related Christian Mingle spoof:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/44274464b3/the-gay-christian-mingle
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lowlandseer wrote:
So if they block any opposition, then the opposition doesn’t exist. I hate to tell them, but life doesn’t work that way.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Silly me thought I could just walk in the Vanderbilt library and browse. Oh no, that place is like Fort Knox!
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Amazing. His inflicting his insecurities on others is so incredibly self-centered.
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Law Prof wrote:
Yes, yes, and yes. I’m amazed at the people in the movement who don’t see this or don’t see the hatred of women there.
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Law Prof wrote:
Agreed. I’m seeing this more and more in my region from YRR “lead pastors” and their hand-picked “elder” teams of 20-30 year olds. They are a strange cast of characters who spend a lot of time together at local coffee shops rather than with their families or ministering to their flock. They flatter each other to the extreme. Some historical theologians over the centuries have wondered about John Calvin’s persuasions in this regard. Perhaps the spirit of Calvin is resting on the movement in more ways than we think?
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Max wrote:
I had to laugh at this one, so true.
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I completely agree with Law Professor… There are couple of my big shot colleagues that LOVE to have big intro’s about all of their awards.. and what is said about them later/off line is not pretty… Most academics, at least in science and engineering, Do not want the kind of praise that these guys seem to crave.. we want our work to stand out… Again, kind of ironic that SECULAR academics, in general, are less into all this puff than the supposed humble “Christians”!! What my colleagues do get proud of is when their science makes an impact!
Law Prof wrote:
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Law Prof wrote:
I was young and now am old. I’ve observed a lot of spiritual principles play out in my Christian journey. One that you can take to the bank: “Pride cometh before a fall.” New Calvinism leaders will eventually fall – you can’t be that arrogant while claiming the name of Christ and run for very long.
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Law Prof wrote:
Oh, well, that’s just great! And to think that they are coming fresh out of seminary and straight into pastorates! Until New Calvinism came along, most SBC seminary graduates went from seminary to associate pastor positions, as ministers of education, youth pastors, or in other associate roles. They served under senior pastors who mentored them – sometimes for years. It takes a while for a preacher boy to become a man of God (some never do). Now these 20-somethings are getting their own church right out of the chute, as “lead pastors” at church plants or traditional church takeovers. They are just too spiritually immature to be pastors … and, as you note, some are packing unresolved baggage that manifests itself through authoritarian control of church folks.
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, it’s not like I think you’re a liar, but I genuinely wonder if you’re pulling my leg or if you’re just honestly mistaken. That was so completely absurd it was like a SNL sketch or better still, Monty Python. If that really is on the up-and-up, then the young man who wrote it is not mentally well, he needs serious help, bordering on psychotic.
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Max wrote:
I think the biggest problem is a significant percentage of them just flat out do not know Jesus–the form of godliness, but their lives denying the power thereof.
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Law Prof wrote:
They don’t know the same Jesus I know, that’s for sure! Their Jesus didn’t die for ALL men … the words of their Jesus are less important than what Paul said … their Jesus doesn’t empower the spiritual gifts of women … their Jesus required human testosterone to defeat Satan, not the blood of God’s precious Son … etc., etc. It’s a different gospel, which is not the Gospel at all. When the dust of New Calvinism settles, one of the greatest mission fields on the planet will be among those who have been taught that they were the “elect”, but never professed faith in Christ as believers. Whosoever will may come; I pray that they will exercise their free will to come to the Cross next time around.
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I’m chiming in to give a little plug for Samford University both as a long-ago graduate and the mom of a current student. It’s a great little school with a beautiful campus and excellent variety and depth of degree programs. Several schools are well respected around the region and some nationwide. The Pharmacy, Fine Arts, Nursing, Education, and Business programs do a great job. Of course, intellectual rigor varies within any university. Samford excels at turning out solid, well-educated citizens who are prepared to get on with life.
Here is what I most appreciate – even though Samford is a Baptist school, students are free to practice any faith or no faith at all. There is no indoctrination. Convocations are a requirement but the requirement can be met through concerts, lectures, and plays as well as worship services.There are many, many women among the faculty and leadership, even in the Campus Ministries. In fact, Mohler has stated in the past that ideas he encountered at Samford so distressed him that he turned away from those ideas into the welcoming arms of Calvinism. That gives me great comfort as a proud graduate!
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Disclaimer to above* I believe the newish Divinity School at Samford has some faculty who are proponents of Calvinism, but for now they seem to be somewhat balanced by others who are not. We’ll see how long that lasts. This program didn’t exist back in the day when Mohler was there.
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@ Law Prof:
The guy means it.
I am pretty sure that he’s, or the site he’s writing for, is affiliated with the Bayly blog or Bayly family, who are super big into complementarianism (or patriarchy)
I would hope that the guy is joking or writing parody, but he honestly means that.
I’ve seen other complementarians (and secular conservatives who are into traditional gender roles) on other sites/blogs also ask women to make themselves smaller, to behave in a weak way, because today’s men feel turned off or threatened by women who are more independent.
I can guarantee you even if it turned out this dude was a troll, there are Christian men out there (and Non Christian conservatives) who would agree with every word of his open letter to Rey.
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@ Law Prof:
P.S. The blog responsible for that nonsense also has this (written by the same guy):
Does Rogue One Trailer=The Feminist Empire Strikes Back?!?!??!?!?!!! by Nathan Alberson
https://warhornmedia.com/2016/04/07/rogue-one-trailerthe-feminist-empire-strikes-back/
Dude clearly has issues with women who don’t fall into the passive, doormat, gender complementarian norm.
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Daisy wrote:
If he really does mean it, if he really thinks he’s making sense, then he needs mental help and spiritual counseling, because he’s neither coming across as a rational, competent person nor a genuine Christian.
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Daisy wrote:
Given over to a depraved mind. Rom 1:28
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Daisy wrote:
Many here have seen this one before.
This is for the new ones that haven’t.
What Daisy is describing can be referred to as “Jock Strap Religion”
It isn’t Christianity or God’s order for marriage. It is a sham concocted by insecure men who what to put down women instead of allow healing for their inner selves.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/05/jock-strap-religion.html
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Patriciamc wrote:
Patriciamc
wrote:
Bingo! And the children & youth who have been victimized by some of these closeted men become the scapegoats. Because they threaten the appearance of righteousness.
Interestingly, as much as I disagree with him on so many other fronts, Tim Bayly has been a mensch about calling out abuse. His latest post on Dennis Hastert is spot on.
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Bookbolter wrote:
Timothy George, Dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford, is general editor of the “Reformation Commentary on Scripture”, which is endorsed by The Gospel Coalition. I have not examined the commentary, so it may present a balanced view of reformers other than Calvin, but TGC’s endorsement of the book is bothersome. Additionally, Al Mohler called Dr. George a “dear friend” in an interview with him promoting George’s book “Reading Scripture with the Reformers.”
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Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
Love that word (Have Jewish in my blood–perhaps it stirs something).
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@ Law Prof:
I think I may have found another guy who thinks in these terms (“women need to make themselves smaller to make me feel bigger,” or, “It’s so danged attractive when women act like helpless waifs, because having self-confidence on its own is a masculine trait, not feminine”):
I’m not sure what that guy’s religious beliefs are.
He’s either in his 20s or 30s and says he works a personal trainer.
Regardless, his views are similar to what one finds among some Christian gender complementarians.
This is more proof (as if it’s needed) that gender comp is a mirror of sexist attitudes found in secular culture, and it is not “counter cultural.”
I also find his emphasis on female physical appearance off putting. He says:
Goodness forbid his wife Ari ever gets a line on her face, gains five pounds, tries to experiment with her hair color or make-up.
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@ Daisy:
P.S. Sorry, I forgot to give the URL / links to that page in my last post:
“From a Man’s Perspective”
http://beautyiam.org/2016/04/from-a-mans-perspective/
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Muff Potter wrote:
And we appreciate it Muff 😉
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Muff Potter wrote:
Blessed to have married someone who could spot me 20 IQ points and win, someone who was a college athlete, who has an inch and a half on me. As a result of her mental prowess, she doesn’t put up with any garbage, throws my poor reasoning back in my face, mocks me when it’s deserved. Keeps one a little more humble and a little less Driscollesque.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!!
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Christiane wrote:
Thank you, Christiane! This Methodist shares your alarm. Of course, ESS is heretical. The fact that there are those who would deny this self-evident fact is a signal that there is a whole lot wrong at CBMW.
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okrapod wrote:
Well said.
And if they would only get back to selling the latest diet book/ haircare “miracle”/Ron Popeil invention on TV at 2 AM, wouldn’t it be a relief to us all!!!
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Law Prof wrote:
You are, IMO, totally right.
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Law Prof wrote:
Only too true.
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JYJames wrote:
That’s a great comparison, I was thinking just the other day that Carter is a good example of being secure in your own skin. Just living life up to the edge….
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zooey111 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me8t12WUcu4
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JYJames wrote:
He lives his life.
(Isn’t that the emphasis in Judaism as well?)
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Mary and Me and Complementarianism (by Ruth Tucker)
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/05/12/mary-and-me-and-complementarianism-by-ruth-tucker/
Mary Kassian responded to Ruth Tucker’s book. Tucker responded to Kassian’s response (and I found it very interesting – the questions she asks of complementarians on the page are also very interesting). 🙂
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@ Daisy:
Thanks for posting! I particularly like this end note from Ruth Tucker: “I have no doubt that Mary Kassian is opposed to domestic violence. The chasm that divides egalitarians and complementarians, however, relates to how the problem is addressed.”
Yes. In the comments about this people go round and round, but whether correlation in this case does equal causation is one question but not the only one. The clear difference is in how one side RESPONDS to cases of abuse. And in the comp case, the answer is that they respond quite poorly.
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“Satan hates testosterone. You can’t blame him – after all, he’s seen it used to crush his head.”
The irony is that if any gendered body part is mentioned in serpent-crushing in the Bible, it is the egg cell:
Genesis 3: 15 say the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent.
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Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Sort of. Only muskier.