SNAP, Others ‘Protest’ Mahaney Speaking at T4G’s ‘We are Protestant’ Conference

“It’s reckless and callous when clergymen give prominent positions to colleagues who face charges of concealing child sex crimes. It actually makes churches more dangerous. It discourages other church members and staff who see, suspect or suffer child sex crimes from speaking up. It emboldens those who commit and conceal child sex crimes.”

David Clohessy, Director of SNAP (statement from recent press release)

https://www.facebook.com/TogetherfortheGospelT4G Facebook – Screen Shot

Today may be April Fool's Day, but it's no joke that the 'protest' against C.J. Mahaney speaking at the upcoming T4G conference is growing by the day.  Mahaney, who moved the Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches headquarters from Gaitherburg, Maryland to Louisville, Kentucky, plans to deliver a message entitled Sustained in Suffering by the Saga of JobAs senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, Mahaney did a series on Job from which his talk will most likely be taken. I have listened to a number of those messages, and it sounded to me like he was playing the victim card.

With the recent arrest of an alleged pedophile at Covenant Life Church (CLC), attention is once again focused on Mahaney, who served as CLC's senior pastor for 27 years.  It hasn't been that long since Nate Morales, a former youth group leader at CLC, was convicted of sexually abusing young boys and sentenced to 40 years in prison.  Mahaney, who was named in a lawsuit that was dismissed on a technicality, has never been exonerated.  To be clear, Mahaney has not been accused of pedophilia but of concealing pedophiles/failing to report them to the proper authorities at his former church.

In light of this, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) took action yesterday by (1) issuing a press release and (2) sending a letter to Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and Ligon Duncan (who together with C.J. Mahaney came up with T4G over a decade ago).  For those who saw Spotlight, which received an Oscar for Best Picture at this year's Academy Awards, you may remember the movie's shout out to SNAP, which played a huge role in the exposure of pedophile priests.

To inform its readership about SNAP's recent actions, the Baptist News Global published an article entitled Abuse survivors want conference speaker removed. That piece begins as follows:

A support group for clergy sex abuse victims is asking organizers of an upcoming religious conference to revoke a speaking invitation to a pastor accused of concealing multiple sex crimes.

The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests said March 31 that allowing controversial Pastor C.J. Mahaney to speak at the April 12-14 Together for the Gospel gathering in Louisville, Ky., would “be tantamount to re-victimizing sex abuse victims” and send a message to would-be whistleblowers: “Don’t bother speaking up. No one will care.”

“It’s reckless and callous when clergymen give prominent positions to colleagues who face charges of concealing child sex crimes,” said SNAP director David Clohessy.

SNAP leaders called on conference organizers Mark Dever, Albert Mohler and Ligon Duncan to withdraw this year’s invitation to Mahaney, a T4G founder who sat out the last conference two years ago due to publicity over a class-action lawsuit alleging he and others sheltered at least 15 child molesters while pastor of a Maryland church and director of a church-planting network now known as Sovereign Grace Churches.

The article went on to state:

SNAP leaders said even if they don’t believe the accusations of cover-up are true, T4G leaders should consider the “implications toward the gospel message” if sexual abuse victims are hurt again “for the sake of the popularity of a preacher and the financial success of a conference.”

“Giving corrupt men like Mahaney praise and visibility adds to the already strong sense of powerlessness that many who saw, suspected and suffered clergy sex crimes feel,” Palmer said. “It decreases the chances they’ll find the courage and hope needed to speak up about horrific wrongs. So it basically sanctions the concealing of sexual assaults against children.”

We have been given permission to share SNAP's press release and its communication to the T4G leaders.  As the Neo-Cals prepare to gather for the "We are Protestant" conference, we can't help but take notice of those who have been inspired by Martin Luther and are following in his footsteps by publicly addressing that with which they strongly disagree (see below).


For immediate release: Thursday, March 31, 2016

For more information: David Clohessy, davidgclohessy@gmail.com, Pam Palmer, palmerp@live.com

Abuse victims want preacher disinvited

He’s accused of concealing child sex crimes

But he is to speak at major Protestant conference

Group says his role “will deter others from reporting abuse”

SNAP: “And it rubs salt into wounds of those hurt on his watch”

A support group for clergy sex abuse victims is urging organizers of a major religious conference to revoke a speaking invitation to a controversial pastor who has allegedly concealed child sex crimes by at least 15 accused offenders.

Rev. C. J. Mahaney is the former head of a denomination once called Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) but now known as Sovereign Grace Churches (SGC). It has roughly 70 churches across the US (mainly in eastern states) and in Australia, Bolivia, Ethiopia, Great Britain, Germany and Mexico.

Next month, he is slated to be a plenary presenter at the biennial international Together for the Gospel (T4G16) conference in Louisville. http://t4g.org/, http://t4g.org/speakers/

It’s expected to draw at least 8,000 participants to Louisville’s KFC Yum! Center on April 12-14.

But in October, 2012, amended in January, 2013 and again in May, 2013, Mahaney was accused in civil lawsuits of ignoring and hiding known and suspected child sexual abuse by church staff and members while he led SGM and Covenant Life Church in Maryland.

In a letter sent today to the T4G organization, leaders of SNAP, the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, are asking them to rescind their permission to let Mahaney and other SGM/SGC officials speak at their event.

“It’s reckless and callous when clergymen give prominent positions to colleagues who face charges of concealing child sex crimes,” said SNAP director David Clohessy. “It actually makes churches more dangerous. It discourages other church members and staff who see, suspect or suffer child sex crimes from speaking up. It emboldens those who commit and conceal child sex crimes.”

“Common sense and common decency would lead T4G officials to say ‘Look C. J., we’re just going to wait until this litigation is resolved before holding you out as a moral figure,’” said Pam Palmer of Hagerstown, a former SGM member whose daughter was sexually abused in 1993 by a teenager. “That would show compassion and prudence. But instead, these ministers all want to act as if these serious and pending charges don’t exist.”

At least three prominent clergymen co-founded T4G. They are Al Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Mark Dever, President of 9Marks and Senior Pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. and Ligon Ducan, Chancellor/CEO of Reformed Theological Seminary in McLean, Virginia.

Besides Mahaney, several current SGC/SGM officials will be speaking at breakout sessions at the conference. The include Mark Prater, Executive Director, and Ian McConnell, Director of Church Planting and Mission.

SNAP wants them disinvited too.

For more than 30 years, Mahaney led both Covenant Life Church (CLC) in Gaithersburg, Maryland and SGM (now Sovereign Grace Churches). Multiple news sources have reported that he was forced to take a leave of absence as President of SGM in July, 2011 – in part, because of allegations of blackmail and abuses of power. (link link)

In the midst of public controversy and leadership in-fighting, he fled CLC and began attending Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C. Soon after, Mahaney hastily moved Sovereign Grace Ministry headquarters from CLC to Louisville, Kentucky. (link link)

A few months later, in October 2012, victims of sexual abuse from Sovereign Grace filed a civil lawsuit against the denomination alleging longstanding conspiracy to cover-up sex abuse. The civil lawsuit grew to 11 plaintiffs before being dismissed because of statutes of limitations. A new civil lawsuit in Virginia, is slated to be filed against Sovereign Grace and related former churches in a few months. (legal complaint)

Additionally, in October 2012, Nathaniel Morales, was arrested and eventually convicted of molesting three boys during the 1980s while he was a CLC youth and worship leader. While under oath during the criminal case, CJ Mahaney’s brother-in-law and subordinate youth pastor, Grant Layman, admitted that he knew he should have reported Morales to law enforcement, but didn’t. (link)

In an expose by The Washingtonian Magazine, reporter Tiffany Stanley wrote, “An investigation commissioned by CLC revealed that between 1990 and 2007 at least five members of the church’s staff were told of Morales’s abuse. None notified the police.” (link)

Some say Mahaney was aware of or should have been aware of several serious reports of child sex abuse by Morales during the 1980s and following — and that he and his pastoral staff did not report Morales to law enforcement.

In 2007, a group of CLC pastors, while CLC was still under CJ Mahaney’s leadership, discussed Morales’ sexual abuses and decided to not report him to law enforcement even though it had been reported to them that Morales had returned to ministry and was working as a pastor in Nevada. Several of these pastors publicly apologized in a church meeting for neglecting to report Morales after that meeting.

Mahaney was aware of or should have been aware of this 2007 decision by pastors within his flagship church to not report an alleged serial child molester, the lawsuit says.

According to sworn testimony at the Morales trial, a teenager told two pastors at CLC in 1991 about Morales abusing other kids, according to Brent Detwiler, a former SGM leader turned blogger:

[The two pastors] did nothing. This information would have been passed onto Mahaney by them. Obviously, he did nothing. His practice was not to report sex offenders. From then, until his arrest, Morales abused boys in different parts of the United States including two stepsons because he was not reported to police.  The pastors at CLC who knew about Morales are largely to blame. At the time of his sentencing, criminal investigations were underway in five states. They were dropped once he was sentenced for what should be the remainder of his life. (link)

Sex abuse cases from Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax located in Fairfax, Virginia were known of by Mahaney documented by email and phone conversations with victims and family members. It has been alleged that Mahaney was aware of legal mediation between the victims’ family members and the church leaders because of sex abuse pastoral mishandling prior to the civil lawsuit. SGM, obstensibly under Mahaney’s direction, sent a pastoral envoy, Kenneth Maresco, a pastor from CLC, to at least one of the mediation meetings. (link)

In addition, Detwiler says Mahaney knew of the sexual and physical abuses toward two victims in CLC by a wealthy member but that he and other pastors did not report to law enforcement. Instead, Mahaney and the other pastors, along with their families, were given an expensive vacation by the wealthy alleged perpetrator, Detwiler writes. (link)

According to Detwiler, writing of Mahaney’s leadership style in alleged sex abuse and cover-up cases: “I worked with C.J. for 30 years. Anyone withholding this kind of information from him would have been fired in all likelihood. He expected to be involved in things of much less importance.” (link)

Mahaney's complicity in the cover-up of child sexual abuse in SGM/SGC has been reported widely in the media. In a recent article in Baptist News Global, Bob Allen wrote of Mahaney’s upcoming appearance at T4G16, states: 

In 2012 Sovereign Grace Ministries announced a new program allowing transfer of credits from its Pastors College toward a master of divinity degree at Southern Seminary. The seminary broke off the relationship in 2014, after one of Mahaney’s former associates testified during the criminal trial that church leaders knew about alleged abuse in the early 1990s but did not report it to the police. (link)

Alleged victims of SGC/SGM predators and their family members and other concerned individuals have already privately and individually conveyed to some T4G conference organizers and scheduled speakers their strong objections to Mahaney and SGM officials speaking at the event.

“Every time an accused or admitted complicit church official is honored, it discourages victims, witnesses and whistleblowers from exposing predators, warning parents and protecting kids,” Palmer emphasized. “Giving corrupt men like Mahaney praise and visibility adds to the already strong sense of powerlessness that many who saw, suspected and suffered clergy sex crimes feel. It decreases the chances they'll find the courage and hope needed to speak up about horrific wrongs. So it basically sanctions the concealing of sexual assaults against children.”

In 2013, Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E. (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) a child sexual abuse awareness and victims advocacy group, released a petition in response to the SGM scandal, which was signed by over 1600 individuals, many whom are prominent in ministry and in professions related to serving sexual abuse victims.

G.R.A.C.E. begins the petition referring to the SGM sex abuse scandal promulgated under Mahaney’s leadership:

    Recent allegations of sexual abuse and cover-up within a well-known international ministry and subsequent public statements by several evangelical leaders have angered and distressed many, both inside and outside of the Church. These events expose the troubling reality that, far too often, the Church’s instincts are no different than from those of many other institutions, responding to such allegations by moving to protect her structures rather than her children. This is a longstanding problem in the Christian world, and we are deeply grieved by the failures of the American and global Church in responding to the issue of sexual abuse.

A few days after this petition was released and only a month after the SBC’s resolution was confirmed, T4G scrubbed their website of all the names of the co-founders – which prior, had prominently stressed the friendship connections of all co-founders to Mahaney for years, since the founding of the organization. (link link)

After much public pressure, Mahaney bowed out from the most recent T4G conference held in 2014 because of the sex abuse cover-up allegations detailed in the 2012 civil lawsuit.

After the criminal conviction in 2014 of Morales on child sex charges, Mahaney was forced to resign from the board of The Gospel Coalition.  

Since the controversy and scandal surrounding Mahaney, over half of the churches have left his denomination and over half of the members from the church he founded and led for over 30 years have left. Still, however, high profile Evangelical pastors have shared the stage with him.

The plenary speakers who are planning to share a stage with Mahaney are:

Ligon Duncan,

Albert Mohler,

Mark Dever,

John Piper,

Thabiti Anyabwile,

John MacArthur,

David Platt,

Matt Chandler,

Kevin DeYoung, and

R.C. Sproul (who cancelled as a plenary speaker citing health reasons – but is planning on possible participation in video).

**********************************************************************************************

A copy of SNAP’s letter, sent today by fax to Together for the Gospel organization, is below:

Dear Drs. Mohler, Dever and Duncan:

We understand that C.J. Mahaney is a good friend of yours and a large financial contributor to many of your ministerial endeavors, and in fact a co-founder of Together for the Gospel. We understand that C.J. Mahaney has been in active pastoral ministry for over 40 years, is a well-liked preacher, author and conference speaker – and that you each have high regard for him.

However, we sincerely ask you to set aside your personal affiliation with C.J. Mahaney and instead focus upon the multitude of sexual abuse victims abused within the church that he personally founded and led as Senior Pastor and within the denomination for decades.

Furthermore, we beg you to consider the implications towards the Gospel message if victims of horrific, life-scarring sexual abuse victims are ignored and hurt again for the sake of the popularity of a preacher and the financial success of a conference. By allowing C.J. Mahaney to speak in an international place of prominence, you are inadvertently sending a message to all sexual abuse victims – and in particular those from within Sovereign Grace Churches – that their trauma is not worth your consideration.

Jesus said in a parable: “‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’” (ESV, Matthew 25:45b)

For their sake, and for the sake of still-vulnerable children within the entire Protestant church, we respectfully but urgently ask that you dis-invite C.J. Mahaney from speaking at the T4G16 conference.

C.J. Mahaney's complicity in the cover-up of child sexual abuse within his denomination is well-documented. At least 15 staff or members of SGM/SCG churches are accused of committing child sex crimes. We believe – and evidence suggests – that a number of top church officials knew of or suspected these crimes and ignored or hid them.

Even if you disagree, you must realize that our perception is shared by thousands of still-wounded child sex abuse victims and millions of Christians worldwide. Personally, you may think the world of Mahaney. However, letting him to have a place of honor within your organization’s conference is tantamount to re-victimizing sex abuse victims. It is also tantamount to telling other victims, witnesses and whistleblowers “Don’t bother speaking up. No one will care. No one will take action. No wrongdoer will be held accountable.”

In light of this, is it worth taking this risk and hurting this many?

Every time a complicit church official is honored, it discourages victims, witnesses and whistleblowers from exposing predators, warning parents and protecting kids. Giving corrupt men like Mahaney praise and visibility contributes to the already strong sense of powerlessness that many who saw, suspected and suffered sexual abuse within churches feel. It decreases the chances they'll find the courage and hope needed to speak up about horrific wrongs. Essentially, it sanctions the concealing of sexual assaults against children.

Please, gentlemen, for the protection of the vulnerable and the healing of the wounded, reconsider and rescind your invitation to C.J. Mahaney and his denominational colleagues.

David Clohessy
Executive Director, SNAP
Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests
7234 Arsenal Street
St. Louis MO 63143
314 566 9790 cell, davidgclohessy@gmail.com

Barbara Dorris
Outreach Coordinator, SNAP
Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests
6245 Westminster
St. Louis MO 63130
314 503 0003, bdorris@SNAPnetwork.org

Pamela Palmer, SNAP volunteer and mother of an SGM sex abuse victim    

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/may/c-j-mahaney-joshua-harris-resign-from-gospel-coalition-sgm.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2013/march/c-j-mahaney-leaves-leadership-of-sovereign-grace-ministries.html

http://www.christianpost.com/news/cj-mahaney-drops-out-of-2014-together-for-the-gospel-conference-due-to-sovereign-grace-lawsuit-99252/

Comments

SNAP, Others ‘Protest’ Mahaney Speaking at T4G’s ‘We are Protestant’ Conference — 172 Comments

  1. I wouldn’t know CJ Mahaney if I passed him on the street, but I still don’t like him and his co-horts. When I read this and saw that an alleged wealthy perp paid for him and a couple of his pastors to take nice vacations, it made me very mad. This is bribery, which is against the law. I applaud SNAP for writing this letter. Keep them up. Of course it would be nice if this whole conference was shut down, but we know that won’t ever happen.

  2. SNAP’s words to T4G today say it all “Personally, you may think the world of Mahaney. However, letting him to have a place of honor within your organization’s conference is tantamount to re-victimizing sex abuse victims. It is also tantamount to telling other victims, witnesses and whistleblowers ‘Don’t bother speaking up. No one will care. No one will take action. No wrongdoer will be held accountable.'”

    As one who calls himself a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, do you stand with a multitude of the abused or one who has been charged with complicity to their abuse? This is yet another test of faithfulness for Drs. Mohler, Dever, and Duncan … who will you be faithful to? When will you open your ears to those who cry, while sheltering one who made them cry?

  3. Thank you, Nate Sparks. Your (ed.) blog post challenging Thabiti Anyabwile was so well-done!

  4. Harley wrote:

    I wouldn’t know CJ Mahaney if I passed him on the street, but I still don’t like him and his co-horts.

    You probably would. From all his pictures, he resembles Patrick Stewart (it’s the hair) but with a vastly-different accent.

  5. Giving corrupt men like Mahaney praise and visibility contributes to the already strong sense of powerlessness that many who saw, suspected and suffered sexual abuse within churches feel. It decreases the chances they’ll find the courage and hope needed to speak up about horrific wrongs.

    And it makes others WANT to become as corrupt as Mahaney, a Winner instead of a Loser.

  6. On that, as I said to you today on Twitter: this did not happen years and years ago as Thabiti wrongly claimed. It is ongoing for everyone affected. So that excuse is just that. And it is truly callous. I would even suggest immature.
    @ Nate Sparks:

  7. @ Melody:
    Agreed. The point of the post was to treat the words as if they were all valid excuses. I wanted to point out that, even If his reasons were valid in theory, they woefully failed his own preset standard. I was being intentional in how I treated his words.

  8. Harley wrote:

    I wouldn’t know CJ Mahaney if I passed him on the street, but I still don’t like him and his co-horts.

    I would. In fact, I ran into him at a hipster bar in Louisville. I don’t approve of his actions, but to be honest, I don’t like him as a person either. He comes across to me as insecure and insincere. I’m not judging him, just pointing out my own bias in the discussion.

  9. And what you did is understood and much appreciated. As a mom of boys, I wouldn’t tolerate this kind of woe-is-me-you’re-holding-me-accountable-you’re-so-mean reasoning I keep hearing from these grown men, but there we go!
    @ Nate Sparks:

  10. If you look at conference promotions for the T4G meeting, you will note an emphasis on “WE are PROTESTants.” A group gathering under a rebellious banner of “WE PROTEST” doesn’t really give a big whoop what the rest of Christendom thinks about their movement or its leaders. New Calvinism is a militant and aggressive resurgence of theological aberration that even John Calvin might take offense at! On the other hand, probably not given his own record of abusing other Christians to advance his theo-politics.

  11. Debbylynn wrote:

    They won’t listen…. The machine is too big…..

    … and the cost is too high!

    My parents’ pastor, Adrian Rogers, once said “Sin will take you further than you want to go, leave you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.”

    That will all play out in the lives of the New Calvinist leaders before the bubble breaks. Rebellion is sin. New Calvinism, with its deceptive practices, is rebellion against mainline Christianity. God will intervene at some point for the sake of His Church.

  12. Max wrote:

    Sin will take you further than you want to go, leave you longer than you want to stay, and cost you more than you want to pay.”

    Yes, I heard him say that numerous times in his sermons.

  13. It is down right frightening that more victims keeping coming to light. How many more will there be? And these Tg4TG keep marching on like nothing happened, or it was in the past. It will not be in the past more victims keep coming forward!

  14. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You probably would. From all his pictures, he resembles Patrick Stewart (it’s the hair) but with a vastly-different accent.

    I can tell the difference between Patrick Stewart and C.J. Mahaney. Oh yes I can. ST:TNG 4EVA.

  15. Max wrote:

    A group gathering under a rebellious banner of “WE PROTEST” doesn’t really give a big whoop what the rest of Christendom thinks about their movement or its leaders.

    Whew! I just viewed a short Youtube promotional on the T4G conference, introduced with “Come together to remember the burning truths of the Reformation, apply its spirit of protest to our times …” Check it out:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/TogetherfortheGospel

    A rather scary overtone to this event, beyond Mahaney’s appearance there! His ministry is but one symptom of a whole movement that has taken on a spiritual dimension which is hitting the alarm point for me. We should not be surprised that thousands of YRR raised under this teaching and these leaders are running through the American church like bulls in a china shop. They will arrive in Louisville in busloads to collect their We Protest tee-shirts. I understand passion – I even have some – but, this is misplaced passion, folks!

  16. LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?

    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.

  17. Max wrote:

    A rather scary overtone to this event

    As I’ve mentioned before, the T4G official statement of belief in no way at all affirms that God is GOOD, or denies that he’s the opposite of good. Scary indeed.

  18. I understand the point but asking Mohler, Dever, and Ducan to disinvite Mahaney seems like asking the mob to break with a local street thug.

  19. Deb wrote:

    Debbylynn wrote:
    They won’t listen…. The machine is too big…..
    Tragically, they have become moneychangers.

    The machine, the moneychangers, the coalitions, the network…

    The coalition that counts is with God. He cleared out the Temple, He will clear out His ranks. Who will be left standing as righteous?

    Those who lord it over others – in church, marriage, wherever – will have to face the Lord. Jesus spoke unfavorably about those who lord it over others.

  20. Its rather funny that most of these folks are Reformed Baptist and say they are in the line with the reformers. Has anyone ever read what some of the reformers did to some of the baptists of the time? I may be wrong but I find that rather ironic.

  21. Yikes, Darlene. If I had gone through what that poor woman and her family went through, I’d be an atheist, too.

    That was really hard to read. JL’s responses to the woman made me sick.

  22. Hope y’all can make out what I posted above. It’s a list of speakers at the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood T4G Pre-Conference. Some of the women speakers aren’t a surprise. Louisville is going to be over-run by the Neo-Calvinists for several days.

  23. @ Darlene:

    This is so tragic.
    And related to the some of the things we talked about on the other thread.
    Make the husband the sole breadwinner and the wife the toast butterer. Then when it comes out that the daughter(s) is(are) sexually abused, the dependent wife and children are kicked to the curb when they won’t comply with the shoddy repentance/forgiveness/reconciliation tactics used by these patriocentric churches.

  24. mirele wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    You probably would. From all his pictures, he resembles Patrick Stewart (it’s the hair) but with a vastly-different accent.
    I can tell the difference between Patrick Stewart and C.J. Mahaney. Oh yes I can. ST:TNG 4EVA.

    Sir Patrick is handsome, humorous, and intelligent. I don’t care if he is CJ’s clone; they belong in different universes.

  25. Paul wrote:

    LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?
    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.

    Indeed. This is one of those cringe-worthy things that used to make me not want to admit I was a Christian or Southern Baptist back when I was those things and cared.

  26. Bill M wrote:

    I understand the point but asking Mohler, Dever, and Ducan to disinvite Mahaney seems like asking the mob to break with a local street thug.

    Mahaney is a Capo. And given his past of blackmail and extortion, your simile is apropos.

  27. Poor Louisville. My husband is from there, and my FIL still lives there. So do assorted nieces and nephews. We have visited many, many times. My FIL attends Holy Trinity Catholic Church, so I think he’s probably safe from the NeoCal invasion. 🙂

  28. ‘Owen Strachan’s Thoughtlife’ blog, hyping the significance of landing RonnieFloyd as speaker:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2016/03/huge-news-for-cbmw-ronnie-floyd-to-speak-for-us/

    “April 2016 T4G pre-conference”

    “Huge News for CBMW: Ronnie Floyd to Speak for Us”

    “This is really exciting. I’m pleased to announce with CBMW that Cross Church pastor Ronnie Floyd, currently the President of the Southern Baptist Convention, will speak at “The Beauty of Complementarity” in April.”

    “This is exciting news for CBMW. To have a widely-respected father and leader like Dr. Floyd speak for us means a great deal, and we’re deeply thankful for this connection to the SBC as well.”

  29. Darlene wrote:

    This is a heartbreaking story of a person who grew up in SGM, attended the Covenant Life School and is now an atheist.

    http://new.exchristian.net/2012/05/losing-faith-gaining-facts-my-story-of.html

    You know, to be perfectly honest, I totally understand why that person is where they’re at. I’m not sure I wouldn’t be in the same place mentally if those things happened to me and my family.

    To C.J. Mahaney and his fanbois: Seriously–this is what you created. This is why you’re being exposed for who you are. You protected other men at the expense of their children. And this is the end result: people who are not interested in Jesus because of their experiences with alleged Christ-followers.

    I personally don’t believe Jesus is mad at this person, or others like him/her, but he’s not very happy with those who caused the damage.

    Oh, and by the way, I’m of the opinion that this is the end result of patriarchy. The patriarchs are defended while those lower down in the food chain (wives, children) are made to bow down and defer to the patriarchs. I personally believe that the patriarchy of the Sovereign Grace movement encourages similar gross indecencies towards the weaker.

    Jesus did not teach patriarchy! He taught servant leadership.

  30. Paul wrote:

    LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?

    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.

    The real irony is that for many of them, their fathers in the faith were opposed to woman suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war protests. At least they didn’t have the temerity to bring up the abolitionists!

  31. Jerome wrote:

    ‘Owen Strachan’s Thoughtlife’ blog, hyping the significance of landing RonnieFloyd as speaker:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2016/03/huge-news-for-cbmw-ronnie-floyd-to-speak-for-us/

    “April 2016 T4G pre-conference”

    “Huge News for CBMW: Ronnie Floyd to Speak for Us”

    “This is really exciting. I’m pleased to announce with CBMW that Cross Church pastor Ronnie Floyd, currently the President of the Southern Baptist Convention, will speak at “The Beauty of Complementarity” in April.”

    “This is exciting news for CBMW. To have a widely-respected father and leader like Dr. Floyd speak for us means a great deal, and we’re deeply thankful for this connection to the SBC as well.”

    Dear Southern Baptists: This is where your overarching organization is at. It is endorsing patriarchy (let’s not mince words here). To do this, CBMW pushes a kind of semi-Arianism, the idea that Jesus is subordinate to the Father as a way of pushing the idea that wives are subordinate to husbands. That is NOT Trinitarian theology, it is an aberration.

    Wade Burleson, who is a friend of the Deebs and of this blog, has pointed out the semi-Arianism infiltrating the SBC here:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html

    What gets me is the idea that these men are so threatened by women that they have to change a doctrine that was fought over and forged 1700 years ago in order to keep women in our place.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: all these men, from Al Mohler on down, need to spend a year or two working at jobs where they have female coworkers and/or managers. That said, I don’t want them at my work. We’re too busy for their subordinationist nonsense.

  32. Nancy2 wrote:

    Ronnie Floyd, current president of the SBC, is on that list!!!

    Ronnie Floyd would not be SBC President if New Calvinist messengers hadn’t voted for him. That voting segment has been swinging SBC officer elections the past several years … the reformers blessed his candidacy in the blogosphere before the election. Dr. Floyd may appear more traditional in SBC belief and practice, but he is also a theo-politician who has successfully navigated the SBC minefield since the Conservative (Calvinist) Resurgence. On one hand, he is trying to keep a diverse theological membership united in his current denominational role; on the other hand, he is most likely waiting to see what the next SBC wave will bring and be prepared to ride it. The young Calvinists love the old guys who walk the middle ground or who crossover. They don’t like bold preachers who will tell them what he thinks about their militant takeover of the SBC. He speaks soothing words to both the Calvinist and non-Calvinist. I’m sure he will have a book table at the conference and a free bag-stuffer for the young whippernsappers – perhaps a Ronnie Floyd bobble-head in a We Protest tee-shirt.

  33. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I ran into him at a hipster bar in Louisville

    You could probably see him again at the same hang-out during the T4G conference. Look for a gang of young groupies following an old bald guy around in We Protest tee-shirts. They may even be slugging Calvinus beer together, tipping their mugs with a “Long Live Mohler!” shout. (yes, there really is a Calvinus beer brewed in Switzerland of course – with John Calvin’s face on the label)

  34. Nancy2 wrote:

    Ronnie Floyd, current president of the SBC, is on that list!!!

    To add to my previous thoughts on this, it should be noted that Ronnie Floyd’s SBC presidential term expires in a couple of months … and he is already accepting speaking engagements at Calvinist conferences! I realize that some non-Calvinists also hold complementarian views, and Mr. Floyd must be in that camp, but his involvement with a conference on the issue essentially endorses that belief which is largely confined to more authoritarian reformed systems, than the current SBC which he represents (although it is drifting in a comp direction). By accepting the T4G speaking engagement, he is also indirectly endorsing C.J. Mahaney’s appearance there under a cloud of controversy arising from authoritarian church abuse.

  35. mirele wrote:

    Jesus did not teach patriarchy! He taught servant leadership.

    I will quibble. He taught us to be servants. When servant is used as a modifier to leadership it leaves leadership as the goal and the servant part is soon left behind. If someone seeks after leadership, even if it is billed as servant leadership, I’m not buying. I’ll follow a servant.

  36. brian wrote:

    Has anyone ever read what some of the reformers did to some of the baptists of the time?

    Good ol’ JC himself (not to be confused with Jesus) called them “the devil’s own miscreants”.

  37. So they protest. So what? If the media are even remotely to be believed then this nation right now is awash in protest about everything imaginable. Especially college kids it seems. I am expecting any minute to see some protest against the lack of new things to be offended about and how that hinders somebody’s right to be offended.

  38. @ Max:
    Do you have any thoughts on the practical politics between the SBC presidency and the missions Board? How personally involved or connected has Floyd been to missions in general?

  39. @ Max:
    “Burning truths” is scarier than folks might think. Is this some sort of sick joke or total ignorance of history? Their Reformation heroes did burn people at the stake for dissent.

  40. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    So my take on it is that the Four Kings believe that recognizing Mahaney’s failure of leadership would call their qualifications into question and threaten their revenue stream.

    That is one take that is very credible. And I think it was the position early on including the fact that the ignorant peasants were not going to tell them what to do . And of course, like anything else, it was supposed to fade into the background because they said he was OK . It hasn’t.

    But I think the situation is even deeper than that . We already know what Mahaney is really like and capable of as far as blackmail and other nefarious strategies. And they already know that their base of adoring followers are not going to ditch them over Mahaney. If Mahaney has nothing to lose, then he becomes even more dangerous. After all, they have gone along with him every step of the way and there has been a lot of money and backroom deals involved. Especially with SBTS. I think we are seeing a pay off to keep him quiet.

    Years ago I would’ve never put Mohler in the same category with an “apostle from the people of destiny” shepherding cult. But now I am wondering who is the better Con man?

  41. @ Paul:
    Paul wrote:

    LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?
    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.

    They are desperately trying to rebrand themselves. Too many people are bringing up Reformation history and the last 10 years of horrible behavior from that movement. . The young skulks full of indoctrinated mush attending will love it. The very patriarchal Moore is taking the rebrand to national media. They are all about being anti racist now. (They are trying to deflect and change their image from authoritarian thugs to populists)

    It will probably work. They are extremely clever and most don’t believe liars can be that obvious or bold. It is how it works.

  42. @ Nancy2:

    Two birds with one stone. Elect Floyd so they can declare they are ok with non Cals and want unity. Floyd loves money and fame. (Floyd lost a while back, was it 2007, when it was reported his mega church barely gave to the CP. nowadays that is the Normal. Platt’s church did not even participate and now he is Prez of the IMB funded by the CP. Floyd has been vindicated and got his day in the sun with more speaking gigs)

  43. I just want to say one more thing about this protest/protestant thing. I remember when it was popular among the baptists to say that we were not, in fact, protestants. Being called a protestant was seen as a misunderstanding of what baptists actually believed. It was popular to declare that we were not protesting anything. So now they not only want to be protestants and everybody better realize that, which I think they are protestants, they even want to protest for crying out loud some 500 years after whatever it was that they admire about the former issues. Well, they have so saturated themselves with how the world does things financially and celebrity wise and with entertainoworship and with CEO pay for the ‘leadership’ that I suppose they have to go the protest route since that is so trending now. Next maybe they can get the fire department to send over a truck to spray the mob in the parking lot with water and declare them all baptized-beats marching through a river I guess. And it would be so news worthy.

    I wish I had not watched that youtube video. I never get headaches but I do sometimes throw up, and this may be a good time for it.

  44. @ okrapod:

    Yes. They are emulating the current populist agenda and will claim they are being persecuted (offended) by those who don’t agree with them. This is the new normal in America.

    Orwellian, but it works. It is already working on college campuses.

  45. @ okrapod:
    Add to that the whole “Separatist or Particular Baptist” argument and it is a black hole. All I know is they both claim Roger Williams. :o).

  46. Bill M wrote:

    He taught us to be servants. When servant is used as a modifier to leadership it leaves leadership as the goal and the servant part is soon left behind. If someone seeks after leadership, even if it is billed as servant leadership, I’m not buying.

    Absolutely agree. “Servant-Leadership” just another concept produced in the corporate world that churchianity appropriated for itself. Robert Greenleaf coined the term in his 1970s work “The Servant As Leader”. Ken Blanchard helped import it into churchianity with his “Lead Like Jesus.”

    Churchianity leaders apply the title to themselves as a cloak of false humility.

    They deceive themselves to think that they are servants, because they have internally redefined the meaning of ‘servant’ unto utter meaninglessness.

    It is used to obfuscate overlording authority, much like ‘complimentarianism’ is used as an attempt to disguise patriarchalism.

    And just on a hunch, I paused this post long enough to google “servant conference” “church”…

    https://www.google.com/#q=%22servant+conference%22+%22church%22

    Oddly enough, didn’t immediately see anything related to gatherings or teachings or seminars for churchianity’s clergy. References to Youth Ministries and Lay Ministries abounded…

    That gives us an idea of just how important and focused the “servant” part of their servant-leadership belief is to the clerical hierarchy.

  47. Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???

  48. Lydia wrote:

    After all, they have gone along with him every step of the way and there has been a lot of money and backroom deals involved. Especially with SBTS. I think we are seeing a pay off to keep him quiet.
    Years ago I would’ve never put Mohler in the same category with an “apostle from the people of destiny” shepherding cult. But now I am wondering who is the better Con man?

    Good points. The first step was to reduce the fence around fundamentalism (they can call it a “conservative” “resurgence”, but it remains a fundamentalist takeover) from a set of fundamental doctrines to “the gospel”. The second step was to redefine the gospel to be calvinist dogma. The third step was to combine resources with those who passed the dogma test, since they were now no longer unclean. And the next thing you know, we’ve got a charismatic apostle, a Presbyterian, and a Baptist making millions of dollars together.

  49. Piero wrote:

    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???

    Mahaney and MacArthur spoke together at all the Resolved conferences.

  50. BL wrote:

    And just on a hunch, I paused this post long enough to google “servant conference” “church”…

    https://www.google.com/#q=%22servant+conference%22+%22church%22

    Oddly enough, didn’t immediately see anything related to gatherings or teachings or seminars for churchianity’s clergy. References to Youth Ministries and Lay Ministries abounded…

    That gives us an idea of just how important and focused the “servant” part of their servant-leadership belief is to the clerical hierarchy.

    I think it was Lance Ford in his book “UNLeader” that mentioned checking out the “Leadership” section of your local christian bookstore and comparing it to the section on being a servant or becoming a disciple.

  51. I have mentioned this before. I have spent 28 years as a engineering faculty member in a major university. One thing that really struck me early on was the similarity in the behavior/attitudes of many of the evangelical/fundamentalist leaders and many of the “intellectual leaders” of my discipline. If you just replace the content for which the “leaders” are expounding, you could switch them…. At least in their attitudes about themselves and their knowledge of the “truth/proper way/etc”.

    I find it ironic since my fundamentalist background leaders prided themselves how they strove to not be worldly ( at least with respect to don’t drink, dance or chew, or go with girls that do); yet their leadership behavior was not any different than my professional world. I expect in my professional world that Christ like behavior is not a requirement; in fact I find the leaders of my professional world pretty honest/genuine with respect to who they really are; but many of the religious leaders, like this 2G4TG crowd….

  52. Very telling
    Deb wrote:

    Piero wrote:
    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???
    Mahaney and MacArthur spoke together at all the Resolved conferences.

  53. Piero wrote:

    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???

    Maybe he’s not all you think he is.

  54. brian wrote:

    Has anyone ever read what some of the reformers did to some of the baptists of the time?

    The Anabaptists are the true heroes of faith of the reformation, not the Calvinists. The magisterial reformers (Calvinists) persecuted the emerging free church of the Anabaptists … in fact, they are still doing that to some extent via the New Calvinist movement!

  55. Mara wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    This is so tragic.
    And related to the some of the things we talked about on the other thread.
    Make the husband the sole breadwinner and the wife the toast butterer. Then when it comes out that the daughter(s) is(are) sexually abused, the dependent wife and children are kicked to the curb when they won’t comply with the shoddy repentance/forgiveness/reconciliation tactics used by these patriocentric churches.

    Mara, and those pastors who did that are still pastoring churches!!!

  56. Piero wrote:

    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???

    Because to him money and correct doctrine matter more than compassion and justice.

  57. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Bill M wrote:
    I understand the point but asking Mohler, Dever, and Ducan to disinvite Mahaney seems like asking the mob to break with a local street thug.
    Mahaney is a Capo. And given his past of blackmail and extortion, your simile is apropos.

    Capo? Now there’s a word I’ve never heard before.

  58. mirele wrote:

    Paul wrote:
    LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?
    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.
    The real irony is that for many of them, their fathers in the faith were opposed to woman suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war protests. At least they didn’t have the temerity to bring up the abolitionists!

    Their fathers in the faith? Having interacted with Calvinists on various places on the Internet – from Facebook discussion sites to Doug Wilson’s blog – I can tell you that many Calvinists define the woman suffrage movement as having destroyed the family and thoroughly disparage it.

  59. mirele wrote:

    Oh yes I can. ST:TNG 4EVA.

    AKA “New Testament Trek” (as opposed to “Old Testament Trek”, i.e. Jim/Spock/Bones).

  60. Max wrote:

    Whew! I just viewed a short Youtube promotional on the T4G conference, introduced with “Come together to remember the burning truths of the Reformation, apply its spirit of protest to our times …”

    i.e. Comrade Trotsky’s ideology of Perpetual Revolution.

    Personified in the minor character of the “professional revolutionary” in the 1952 biopic Viva Zapata! He first instigates Zapata to rebel against the Diaz dictatorship, then the Huerta dictatorship, but finally when the Revolution is won he begins plotting Revolution against Zapata and finally has him assassinated. “!VIVA LA REVOLUTION!”

  61. Darlene wrote:

    Hope y’all can make out what I posted above. It’s a list of speakers at the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood T4G Pre-Conference. Some of the women speakers aren’t a surprise. Louisville is going to be over-run by the Neo-Calvinists for several days.

    The new Geneva?

  62. mirele wrote:

    The real irony is that for many of them, their fathers in the faith were opposed to woman suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war protests. At least they didn’t have the temerity to bring up the abolitionists!

    Yet.

  63. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Harley wrote:

    I wouldn’t know CJ Mahaney if I passed him on the street, but I still don’t like him and his co-horts.

    I would. In fact, I ran into him at a hipster bar in Louisville.

    How Hipsterly Ironic…

  64. BL wrote:

    Absolutely agree. “Servant-Leadership” just another concept produced in the corporate world that churchianity appropriated for itself.

    SERVANT LEADERSHIP
    WAR IS PEACE
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
    (And it all comes back to LONG! LIVE! BIG! BROTHER!)

  65. Darlene wrote:

    Their fathers in the faith? Having interacted with Calvinists on various places on the Internet – from Facebook discussion sites to Doug Wilson’s blog – I can tell you that many Calvinists define the woman suffrage movement as having destroyed the family and thoroughly disparage it.

    I’m aware of this, but with the exception of the Doug Wilson types, the Calvinistas keep their lips tightly zipped. They know how hugely unpopular this view would be in a country which has universal suffrage. Instead, they go with the comp doctrine (aka patriarchy), tell wives they have to vote as their husband directs, and otherwise make wives subordinate to their husbands.

  66. HUG, I doubt Looer-ville will become the New Geneva. It’s actually remarkably Catholic for a Southern city. There’s a strong tradition of German Catholicism and Lutheranism throughout that area. These folks, who include my relatives in law, look on the NeoCals with bemusement, when they think of them at all.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    Hope y’all can make out what I posted above. It’s a list of speakers at the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood T4G Pre-Conference. Some of the women speakers aren’t a surprise. Louisville is going to be over-run by the Neo-Calvinists for several days.

    The new Geneva?

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Protestants on the Protestants?

    Sounds like some Protestants deserve to be protested against. Especially when they resemble the papists who got Luther all riled up.

    Ironically, I find much in the modern Catholic Church to admire.

  68. Piero wrote:

    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???

    Was that dry sarcasm? I can’t speak to those traits per se, but I will tell you that MacArthur has never had an ounce of discernment, so I’m not remotely surprised.

  69. Jenny wrote:

    Piero wrote:
    Why is a person of such maturity, integrity and Biblical knowledge as John MacArthur not refusing to share the stage with Charles Mahaney???
    Because to him money and correct doctrine matter more than compassion and justice.

    Bazzinga.

  70. Darlene wrote:

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Bill M wrote:
    I understand the point but asking Mohler, Dever, and Ducan to disinvite Mahaney seems like asking the mob to break with a local street thug.
    Mahaney is a Capo. And given his past of blackmail and extortion, your simile is apropos.
    Capo? Now there’s a word I’ve never heard before.

    “Capo” is a captain in the Sicilian mafia.

  71. Lydia wrote:

    @ Nancy2:
    Two birds with one stone. Elect Floyd so they can declare they are ok with non Cals and want unity. Floyd loves money and fame. (Floyd lost a while back, was it 2007, when it was reported his mega church barely gave to the CP. nowadays that is the Normal. Platt’s church did not even participate and now he is Prez of the IMB funded by the CP. Floyd has been vindicated and got his day in the sun with more speaking gigs)

    CP? What is the CP? All these Southern Baptist acronyms. I’ve learned a lot about this denomination since reading TWW.

  72. Lydia wrote:

    @ okrapod:
    Yes. They are emulating the current populist agenda and will claim they are being persecuted (offended) by those who don’t agree with them. This is the new normal in America.
    Orwellian, but it works. It is already working on college campuses.

    People want to feel like their part of some great movement – especially young people. Speaking of which, that Protest video actually showed a glimpse of the Occupy Movement. C’mon – these folks are at opposite ends of the spectrum from that movement. But hey, it’s advertising and they want to appeal to a certain demographic so who cares if the advertising is accurate?

  73. JYJames wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    their revenue stream
    Follow the money; it is all about revenue stream.

    Your comment brought to mind the documentary that I saw many years ago entitled, “Marjoe.” It was made by Marjoe Gortner, who had been a child evangelist. He decided to do the preaching circuit, but in reality his intentions were to expose the religion business, and how charlatans con well-meaning Christians out of their money. I’d say the Nee-Cals are a bit more sophisticated in their methods, but the end result is the same – watching the money roll in from religion and the preaching circuit.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V252j868jTk

  74. Darlene wrote:

    mirele wrote:
    Paul wrote:
    LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?
    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.
    The real irony is that for many of them, their fathers in the faith were opposed to woman suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war protests. At least they didn’t have the temerity to bring up the abolitionists!
    Their fathers in the faith? Having interacted with Calvinists on various places on the Internet – from Facebook discussion sites to Doug Wilson’s blog – I can tell you that many Calvinists define the woman suffrage movement as having destroyed the family and thoroughly disparage it.

    I want to clarify my response above. It is not only the Calvinists/Patriarchalists of old that opposed the Women’s Suffrage. In my interactions with Calvinists NOW in the 21st Century, they express their disdain for Women’s Suffrage. I’ve really seen that attitude among the male commenters on Doug Wilson’s blog.

  75. I checked the website for The Trinity Church and Mark Driscoll is starting a Bible study tomorrow morning at 9:30 am. This is part of working up to his church’s launch in (probably) August. I guess I need to set some expectations for him from the beginning, hmm?

  76. mirele wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Their fathers in the faith? Having interacted with Calvinists on various places on the Internet – from Facebook discussion sites to Doug Wilson’s blog – I can tell you that many Calvinists define the woman suffrage movement as having destroyed the family and thoroughly disparage it.
    I’m aware of this, but with the exception of the Doug Wilson types, the Calvinistas keep their lips tightly zipped. They know how hugely unpopular this view would be in a country which has universal suffrage. Instead, they go with the comp doctrine (aka patriarchy), tell wives they have to vote as their husband directs, and otherwise make wives subordinate to their husbands.

    So the question is: if they actually support women’s suffrage, then why do they tell their wives to vote as their husbands direct? Interestingly, a guy on the Calvinist Facebook site where I’ve interacted, recently asked a question that if a wife wanted to vote for Bernie or Hillary, does the husband have the right to insist his wife not vote? You should have seen the responses! Some said he has every right to tell her how to vote, and in this case since voting for either one of them would be a sin, she would be rebelling against God to disobey her husband and vote for Bernie or Hillary. Others said they were against women’s suffrage. The conversation meandered into the absurd when some of the guys who defended the right that wifey must submit to hubby and vote as he tells her, just how they could enforce such a thing if wifey intends to disobey. I told them hubby should tie his wife up on election day and throw her in a locked closet!

  77. __

    Black Speech: “No Departure, No Escape, In The Land Of Louisville, Where The Shadows lie?”

    hmmm…

    @ Max

    FYI: C.J. played a very effective blackmail scheme in the early days. No one in leadership advanced without telling a dirty little personal secret about themselves. This, as you might imagine, was a very effective deterrent to any thing ‘considered’ along the lines of disloyalty. A tool to bind, a tool to silence, a tool to control. Many have long suspected that he engaged this tool with his (then) new Calvinist cronys. Thus sealing some kind of ‘nefarious bond’ ™ , or ‘blood’ pact.

    huh?

    “Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
    Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
    Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
    One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

    “One Ring to rule them all, 
    One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them,

    In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.” [1]
    __
    Ref: [1] J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, “The Shadow of the Past”

  78. __

    These ‘Religious’ ™  Men Have Perverted The Gospel Of Jesus Christ? [1]

    hmmm…

    Is it any wonder that they should pervert the biblical relationship between the sexes, as well?

    huh?

    That they should pervert their relationship with The Son of God, as well?

    That they should pervert the grace of God with John Calvin’s subterfuge 
    as spelled out in his ‘Institutes Of The Christian Religion’?

    What?

    For a man to point a finger biblically, scripturally, or spiritually,  against a woman, it is to point the four remaining fingers at themselves.

    (That is a good reason why the Comp stuff dosn’t work in practice.)

     “Love your wives as Christ loved the church”?

    what?

    How about that?

    (which is the other side of the formulated scriptural equation the last time I checked.)

    Please try harder.

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    ___
    Notes: [1] What is the gospel? It is the truth that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, died for our sins and came back from the dead. (It is well defined in 1 Corinthians 15) : “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that He was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures…”

  79. I’m feeling slightly surreal reading a sincere discussion of women’s suffrage in the year of 2016 in the assumed “enlightened West”.

  80. This is Billy’s mom so that I don’t take away or deviate from this post I posted an update in the comments section under “Shauna and billy say thank you post “.

  81. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    I doubt Looer-ville will become the New Geneva. It’s actually remarkably Catholic for a Southern city. There’s a strong tradition of German Catholicism and Lutheranism throughout that area.

    Loo-uh-ville (uh not er as we pronounced it) is/was my home town where I was until my early 30s. and what you are saying is something that I have said on several occasions here from time to time. I really want people to understand this about Louisville. My family were SBC but always with one eye on the catholics and we had some catholic ancestors. I am thinking that for my era this was a quite common picture of quite a few SBC people in that town.

    More than that, in my public elementary school the teachers would sometimes remind us that the catholic students (all of whom were portrayed as academic achievers) who attended the catholic parochial schools (all of which were portrayed as academically demanding) would pour into the public schools at high school at which point all of us would be shown to the be sluggards that we were–and would we ever be ashamed of ourselves when that happened. I lived in some degree of fear of the alleged hoard of catholic academic achievers which were soon to show us up for what we were.

    That-the catholic presence in general, the hype about the catholic schools, and the history of the ancestors is how I got intrigued by catholicism in the first place. That and the fact that it was pre-Vatican II which was a different thing all together. But yes, catholicism has been quite present in Louisville. Perhaps it is somewhat less visible to the protestants since the catholic hospitals re-aligned themselves or else actually closed and since there are fewer parochial schools.

  82. @ okrapod:

    But as to calling it a southern city-not so much. Somebody has said that Louisville is a southern city one week only each year-Derby week. Since moving to a more southern area I tend to agree with that.

    And let us not fail to mention that there are not only catholics and lutherans identifiable for their presence, there is an episcopal cathedral with an identifiable episcopal presence, a fairly large jewish population, a presbyterian seminary and a fairly large secular university as well as some smaller post-secondary schools.

    Louisville has never belonged to the baptists, and may God grant that it never does. So if the baptists want to have some second rate school out there on seminary hill, well bless them, I guess they just keep trying.

  83. Darlene wrote:

    JYJames wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    their revenue stream
    Follow the money; it is all about revenue stream.

    Your comment brought to mind the documentary that I saw many years ago entitled, “Marjoe.” It was made by Marjoe Gortner, who had been a child evangelist. He decided to do the preaching circuit, but in reality his intentions were to expose the religion business, and how charlatans con well-meaning Christians out of their money.

    I’d forgotten all about that little gem. Yes, everyone should watch it. It won the academy award that year (1972) for best documentary. You can also watch it on Amazon Prime if you’re a member.

    The present crop of celebrity preachers have many similarities to Marjoe. I think I’d aptly call them “Marjoe-Gone-To-Finishing-School”

  84. Darlene wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ Nancy2:

    CP? What is the CP? All these Southern Baptist acronyms. I’ve learned a lot about this denomination since reading TWW.

    They use the acronyms, I promise, to keep the average pew sitter ” Dazed and Confused.”

  85. Just a reminder or if you hadn’t seen on Twitter there is now a Facebook group “We stand with SGM Survivors” at link:
    https://m.facebook.com/groups/1055425764515122
    in protest at the continued promotion of CJ Mahaney at “gospel-centered” conferences and bookstalls. To add your voice and stand in solidarity with all hurt by SGM, simply join the group and invite others to take a look and join. Lots of resources on the topic already compiled, and plenty more to be added. Let’s support one another! Thanks again to TWW for inspiring this one anothering. Xx

  86. I also wanted to thank Karen Colbert for setting up the group and say thanks to everyone posting in there. Xx

    Melody wrote:

    Just a reminder or if you hadn’t seen on Twitter there is now a Facebook group “We stand with SGM Survivors” at link:
    https://m.facebook.com/groups/1055425764515122
    in protest at the continued promotion of CJ Mahaney at “gospel-centered” conferences and bookstalls. To add your voice and stand in solidarity with all hurt by SGM, simply join the group and invite others to take a look and join. Lots of resources on the topic already compiled, and plenty more to be added. Let’s support one another! Thanks again to TWW for inspiring this one anothering. Xx

  87. mirele wrote:

    , I’m of the opinion that this is the end result of patriarchy. The patriarchs are defended while those lower down in the food chain (wives, children) are made to bow down and defer to the patriarchs.

    And yet they preach that Patriarchy is needed in order to ‘protect’ women and children.
    They lie to women about this part in order to sell it to them and get them on board. But it is lie.

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-patriarchs-second-lie-to-women.html

  88. Darlene wrote:

    those pastors who did that are still pastoring churches!

    Yes, it is just sickening. Like a nightmare you can’t wake up from because it is real.

  89. okrapod wrote:

    But as to calling it a southern city-not so much. Somebody has said that Louisville is a southern city one week only each year-Derby week. Since moving to a more southern area I tend to agree with that.

    I agree, as a Southern Kentuckian ….. near the Tennessee state line.
    There is also a large number of immigrants from 3rd world countries (India, Asia, Latin America ……) in Louisville, now.

  90. Bill M wrote:

    When servant is used as a modifier to leadership it leaves leadership as the goal

    Here’s a twist for ya. I am a servant-leader to our 4 dogs. I serve them, and I lead them.
    I don’t see much difference.

  91. okrapod wrote:

    Louisville has never belonged to the baptists, and may God grant that it never does. So if the baptists want to have some second rate school out there on seminary hill, well bless them, I guess they just keep trying.

    Used to live in Louisville as recently as last year, and I can tell you that the seminary has a terrible, terrible name and testimony in the community. Part of that stems from the general sense of privilege and entitlement displayed by the students in the local community, but most of it has to do with the absurd, backwards, and sometimes wicked views of its new fundamentalist masters (like patriarchalism)

  92. Okrapod, thanks and lol!! 😀

    We will be visiting Loo-uh-ville this July en route to a nephew’s wedding in Indianapolis. Hoping to get some yummy kuchen from that German bakery — forget the name but I’m sure you know which one I mean.

    I love Louisville. 🙂 Glad I live in NC, though. We have the mountains AND the beach — yeehaw!

  93. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Glad I live in NC, though. We have the mountains AND the beach — yeehaw!

    Me too. I love NC, but not to say that LSVL and the rest of KY are not near and dear to my heart. The area in KY where Nancy2 lives is just plain gorgeous.

    BTW, I have relatives who live in Speedway.

  94. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Paul wrote: “LOL! They actually have the gall to compare themselves to Women’s Suffrage, the Civil Rights Movement, and the anti-war protests of the 60s?
    These people must have egos the size of the solar system.”

    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote: “Indeed. This is one of those cringe-worthy things that used to make me not want to admit I was a Christian or Southern Baptist back when I was those things and cared.”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    agreed. if asked, I would not say I am a Christian, but use another word that is more accurate.

    what are your beliefs these days, about God/jesus/Holy Spirit? I believe you mentioned you had attended Southern seminary for a time. how did that experience factor in to your perspective now? If these are too personal questions, just disregard.

  95. Darlene wrote:

    This is a heartbreaking story of a person who grew up in SGM, attended the Covenant Life School and is now an atheist.
    http://new.exchristian.net/2012/05/losing-faith-gaining-facts-my-story-of.html

    That is so tragic. My heart goes out to her. And good for her mother to stand up to their whole community!

    I just do not understand the dynamic in which the victim is made to suffer by the community. This has occurred with regularity in secular communities as well, but is especially heinous when done in the name of God. Secular communities have largely awakened to these dynamics (not that it doesn’t still happen), but it seems that the church’s focus on sin while ignoring all the biblical passages about affliction, oppression, etc. is what keeps it going in churches. On the other hand, you would think that the emphasis on sin and its deceptive nature would arouse more suspicion in the church of a statement of repentance. You would think “bringing forth fruit in keeping with repentance” would be more of a consideration and that avoiding the millstone awarded to those who cause little ones to stumble would cross more minds…

  96. Nancy2 wrote:

    Here’s a twist for ya. I am a servant-leader to our 4 dogs. I serve them, and I lead them.
    I don’t see much difference.

    Cats don’t go for servant-leader stuff. It’s strictly an owner-valet relationship. My cat owns me and I am her valet.

  97. Does Nancy2 live in eastern Kentucky? I agree; that area is breathtaking. I love the KY state park system. Best ever, along with the Arkansas system. The CCC really knew how to build lodges and blaze hiking trails!

    okrapod wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Glad I live in NC, though. We have the mountains AND the beach — yeehaw!

    Me too. I love NC, but not to say that LSVL and the rest of KY are not near and dear to my heart. The area in KY where Nancy2 lives is just plain gorgeous.

    BTW, I have relatives who live in Speedway.

  98. I decided to be a “pit bull on the pant leg of opportunity” (to quote George W. Bush) and set expectations with Mark Driscoll regarding future activity. So I drove out to “The Trinity Church” this morning. Today’s signs read: “Where’d the Seattle money go, Mark?” and “Ask Mark about the Global Fund.” I believe I saw Grace Driscoll and a few of the Driscoll kids entering the church. Nobody would come out to talk to me, but there were three people deputized to the steps to keep an eye on me while I was there. As soon as I left, they went into the church.

    For it just being a “Bible study” (that’s what they’re calling it until August, when the church actually opens), I saw a big screen through the open door of the church. That’s a lot of money.

  99. M. Joy wrote:

    The present crop of celebrity preachers have many similarities to Marjoe. I think I’d aptly call them “Marjoe-Gone-To-Finishing-School”

    An aside from a traveling preacher/music star that visited our church back in the day: “Yes, those charismatics are really just simpletons – such simple-minded folk – easy to work that crowd.”

  100. mirele wrote:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/06/eternal-subordination-and-sbc-divorce.html

    Excellent post by Wade Burleson. He writes: “Nobody in marriage has any inherent “authority.” Christ has all authority…”

    I would add, the same in the local fellowship or how we do church. No one has authority over another. And if things are not “right”, walk away – without control or authority.

    From 4.1.2016, NYT, op-ed piece: “IN the world we live in, there is no dearth of pious men who believe that most of the world’s problems can be fixed by giving their women a little thrashing. And this business of a man’s God-given right to give a woman a little thrashing has brought together all of Pakistan’s pious men.”

    Their political and religious leadership has united AGAINST a law that makes it unlawful for a man to beat his wife.

    “Their logic goes like this: If you beat up a person on the street, it’s a criminal assault. If you bash someone in your bedroom, you’re protected by the sanctity of your home. If you kill a stranger, it’s murder. If you shoot your own sister, you’re defending your honor.”

    This same reasoning in our own US religious/political leadership has similarly made the church a sanctuary for domestic violence and pedophilia. If you do it to your own, it is your God-given right or calling, it is your business and outside the law.

  101. Nancy2 wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    When servant is used as a modifier to leadership it leaves leadership as the goal

    Here’s a twist for ya. I am a servant-leader to our 4 dogs. I serve them, and I lead them.
    I don’t see much difference.

    Out walking the dog it is usually the dog leading, it only follows if there is something to sniff at. Yes to mirely, we are just staff to the cats.

    Leadership vs servant can become about semantics but all too often I have discovered the quest for leadership was not to serve in a greater capacity but to obtain control and become the focus.

  102. dee wrote:

    Deb

    She sent them to me and I copied you on them.

    I have more from today. I’ll send them to you.

  103. JYJames wrote:

    “Their logic goes like this: If you beat up a person on the street, it’s a criminal assault. If you bash someone in your bedroom, you’re protected by the sanctity of your home. If you kill a stranger, it’s murder. If you shoot your own sister, you’re defending your honor.”

    Here’s the seminal online essay regarding that kind of Honor(TM) and societal failure:
    http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/TOXICVAL.HTM

  104. mirele wrote:

    Oh, and by the way, I’m of the opinion that this is the end result of patriarchy. The patriarchs are defended while those lower down in the food chain (wives, children) are made to bow down and defer to the patriarchs

    “I Got Mine,
    I Got Mine,
    I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
    Now that I GOT MINE!”
    — Glenn Frye, “I Got Mine”

  105. Max wrote:

    Look for a gang of young groupies following an old bald guy around in We Protest tee-shirts. They may even be slugging Calvinus beer together, tipping their mugs with a “Long Live Mohler!” shout.

    Make that “A gang of IRONIC young Hipsters IRONICALLY following an old bald guy around in IRONIC We Protest T-shirts, IRONICALLY slugging Calvinus beer together, IRONICALLY tipping their mugs with an IRONIC “Long Live Mohler!”

  106. mirele wrote:

    Instead, they go with the comp doctrine (aka patriarchy), tell wives they have to vote as their husband directs, and otherwise make wives subordinate to their husbands.

    When Utah was being considered for statehood, they were required to deny women the vote in order to become a state. The argument given was that plural wives would vote as their Patriarch/husband directed, thus increasing the political clout of Mormon Patriarchs.

    (A similar argument was behind the three-fifths rule in the original Constitution, where counting slaves as full people would give the Southern slave states too much clout in the population-allocated House, and not counting them at all would give the Northern free states too much clout.)

  107. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
    Bill M wrote:
    I understand the point but asking Mohler, Dever, and Ducan to disinvite Mahaney seems like asking the mob to break with a local street thug.
    Mahaney is a Capo. And given his past of blackmail and extortion, your simile is apropos.
    Capo? Now there’s a word I’ve never heard before.

    “Capo” is a captain in the Sicilian mafia.

    But there can be only one Capo de Tutti Capi.
    “TO THE MATTRESSES!”

  108. Darlene wrote:

    CP? What is the CP? All these Southern Baptist acronyms. I’ve learned a lot about this denomination since reading TWW.

    These guys are trying to give the Federal Government, Russian Bureaucracy, AND Microsoft a run for their money in two/three/four-letter acronyms.

  109. Russell Moore is a neo-Cal? I honestly (no sarcasm) didn’t know that. I just thought he was supposed to be the pro-life, anti-gay marriage spokesperson of the SBC.

  110. @ Paul:

    Definitely! Russell Moore isn't just a Neo-Cal and complementarian, he's a patriarch. Here is what Moore said in an interview that appeared over at 9Marks a while back.

    “I hate the word complementarian. I prefer the word patriarchy…… because complementarianism doesn’t say much more than the fact that you have different roles. Everyone agrees that we have different roles, it just a question of on what basis you have different roles? So an egalitarian would say, “Yeah, I’m a complementarian too, it’s on the basis of gifts.” I think we need to say instead, “No you have headship that’s the key issue. It’s patriarchy, it’s a headship that reflects the headship, the fatherhood of God, and this is what it looks like, you then have to define what headship looks like…”

    You can find it at this link: http://thatmom.com/2012/07/13/will-the-real-complementarian-please-stand-up-2/

  111. @ mirele:

    “I decided to be a “pit bull on the pant leg of opportunity” (to quote George W. Bush) and set expectations with Mark Driscoll regarding future activity. So I drove out to “The Trinity Church” this morning. Today’s signs read: “Where’d the Seattle money go, Mark?” and “Ask Mark about the Global Fund.” ”
    ++++++++++++++

    a 2-fisted 2-sign-holding protesting pit bull…. the very best kind.

  112. elastigirl wrote:

    a 2-fisted 2-sign-holding protesting pit bull…. the very best kind.

    It was definitely a two-fisted day out there as the wind was blowing from the east (not a usual direction here) and it was hard to hold on to the sign. One good thing–my cell phone has a physical exertion program on it, and the walking back and forth meant that I met my quota for the day (a minimum of 35 minutes activity).

  113. mirele wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:
    a 2-fisted 2-sign-holding protesting pit bull…. the very best kind.
    It was definitely a two-fisted day out there as the wind was blowing from the east (not a usual direction here) and it was hard to hold on to the sign. One good thing–my cell phone has a physical exertion program on it, and the walking back and forth meant that I met my quota for the day (a minimum of 35 minutes activity).

    I thought of good ole MD today in church as the minister talked on the calling God gives each of us and how we shouldn’t let others dictate to us what that calling should be. He said that some are called to be stay at home mothers and others are called to be stay at home fathers. I wonder if MD would want to punch him out.

  114. @ mirele:

    “One good thing–my cell phone has a physical exertion program on it, and the walking back and forth meant that I met my quota for the day (a minimum of 35 minutes activity).”
    ++++++++

    …and a multi-tasker. can you put Bob Dylan on your cell phone and bring speakers next time? that sounds newsworthy enough.

  115. mirele wrote:

    Today’s signs read: “Where’d the Seattle money go, Mark?” and “Ask Mark about the Global Fund.”

    I’m glad that you are out there doing this. It needs to be done.
    Are you the only one? I wish I could be better support than just moral support. Arizona is a long way from my house, though.

  116. mirele wrote:

    Nobody would come out to talk to me, but there were three people deputized to the steps to keep an eye on me while I was there. As soon as I left, they went into the church.

    Just. Like. Scientology.

    But then again, you knew that, I’m sure. I hope the creepiness doesn’t bring back too many painful memories.

  117. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    These guys are trying to give the Federal Government, Russian Bureaucracy, AND Microsoft a run for their money in two/three/four-letter acronyms.

    And Scientology, HUG. Mustn’t forget that abusive bureaucracy.

    For those not in the know, the Co$ uses these kinds of acronyms constantly, in addition to all of their loaded language and made-up words. Even the current leader (read “dictator”) of the Cult of Greed and Power is referred to as COB RTC. That’s “Chairman of the Board for the Religious Technology Centre”. I kid you not.

  118. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Just. Like. Scientology.

    But then again, you knew that, I’m sure. I hope the creepiness doesn’t bring back too many painful memories.

    No painful memories. More like remembrance that even though my handlers were so into Scientology then, most of them are now out as Scn has definitely shrunk over the years.

  119. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Even the current leader (read “dictator”) of the Cult of Greed and Power is referred to as COB RTC. That’s “Chairman of the Board for the Religious Technology Centre”. I kid you not.

    That sort of First-Letter-of-Every-Word acronym is also characteristic of Russian bureaucracy.

  120. mirele wrote:

    So I drove out to “The Trinity Church” this morning. Today’s signs read: “Where’d the Seattle money go, Mark?” and “Ask Mark about the Global Fund.”

    Too bad this isn’t Los Angeles. John & Ken, the afternoon mouths on KFI 640AM are known for pulling “Hour of the Bullhorn” street actions at corrupt institutions. Can you imagine a hundred people in the street with media coverage and a talk-radio type yelling “WHERE’D THE MONEY GO, MARK?” on the air?

  121. elastigirl wrote:

    can you put Bob Dylan on your cell phone and bring speakers next time?

    And don’t forget to put Jimi Hendrix’ famous cover of a Dylan song on too!

  122. Muff Potter wrote:

    And don’t forget to put Jimi Hendrix’ famous cover of a Dylan song on too!

    Aw yeah, “All Along The Watchtower” for the win!

  123. mirele wrote:

    “Where’d the Seattle money go, Mark?” and “Ask Mark about the Global Fund.

    I’m thinking the signs I might carry would be:

    “Jesus COMMANDS wives to do WHAT?!”

    And

    “Driscoll doesn’t teach the Bible”

  124. elastigirl wrote:

    what are your beliefs these days, about God/jesus/Holy Spirit? I believe you mentioned you had attended Southern seminary for a time. how did that experience factor in to your perspective now? If these are too personal questions, just disregard.

    Well to start with the end first, I would say that my experience at Southern was the single most galvanizing factor in my beliefs. I would say that I have a sincerely held belief in god. I like Jesus, but I disagree with him on a lot of stuff. I have never seen a shred of evidence that the holy spirit is even a thing, so these days I tend to think of him as a way of putting words around something we don’t really understand.

  125. Regardless of where one stands on homosexuality or homosexual marriage, this sure seems like over-reach to me – the woman is not in their church anymore, but they are hounding her.

    North Carolina church harasses former member over her marriage to another woman
    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/north-carolina-church-harasses-former-member-over-her-marriage-to-another-woman/

    North Carolina church tracked down a former member and sent her a letter expressing their disapproval over her same-sex marriage, Queerty reported.

    The letter, signed by the pastor and deacons at the First Baptist Church in Bostic, called on Kelly Toney to “display repentance and abandonment of this area of open immorality,”…

    …Toney responded in a letter of her own sent to Outsports, stating that neither she nor her wife, Lori Ann Toney, have attended First Baptist in 15 years.

  126. Daisy wrote:

    Regardless of where one stands on homosexuality or homosexual marriage, this sure seems like over-reach to me – the woman is not in their church anymore, but they are hounding her.

    Why can’t people just live and let live?
    I’m glad that those who ‘hound’ others for being different cannot go beyond their petty hounding (although they’d dearly love to, of that I’m sure) as they did in times past…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEhHeILa3HE

  127. mirele wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Here’s a twist for ya. I am a servant-leader to our 4 dogs. I serve them, and I lead them.
    I don’t see much difference.

    Cats don’t go for servant-leader stuff. It’s strictly an owner-valet relationship. My cat owns me and I am her valet.

    That’s a cat for you!! My 2 cats give me that “look” sometimes, when they think I am being particularly dense. You know the one: “Poor Mother! She’s a thick as a plank!!”
    And yes, they run things & allow me to live here….

  128. Daisy wrote:

    Regardless of where one stands on homosexuality or homosexual marriage, this sure seems like over-reach to me – the woman is not in their church anymore, but they are hounding her.

    North Carolina church harasses former member over her marriage to another woman
    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/north-carolina-church-harasses-former-member-over-her-marriage-to-another-woman/

    North Carolina church tracked down a former member and sent her a letter expressing their disapproval over her same-sex marriage, Queerty reported.

    The letter, signed by the pastor and deacons at the First Baptist Church in Bostic, called on Kelly Toney to “display repentance and abandonment of this area of open immorality,”…

    …Toney responded in a letter of her own sent to Outsports, stating that neither she nor her wife, Lori Ann Toney, have attended First Baptist in 15 years.

    Oh, good grief! Doesn’t this church have anything else to do???

  129. zooey111 wrote:

    That’s a cat for you!! My 2 cats give me that “look” sometimes, when they think I am being particularly dense. You know the one: “Poor Mother! She’s a thick as a plank!!”
    And yes, they run things & allow me to live here….

    I call it my feline headship.

  130. @ Paul:

    Moore is whatever you need for him to be if it comes with lots of media and money. He has worked for democrat congressman Gene Taylor who lost to a republican. He was anti BP (he is sort of anti business) at SBTS but had no problem working at SBTS who named a college after a pro chattel slaver, Boyce, in 1994 (I mention this because since named prez of ERLC is all about racism). He was Mr. Patriarchal poster boy at SBTS and is famous for declaring “comps are wimps”.

    Now the big issue is racism and anti Trump rhetoric and it gets him plenty of national press.

    IOW, he has something for everyone. Just wait around. He has hired mostly non SBC Reformed staff at the ERLC. And his racism shtick is not evident in praxis when looking at his staff picks. :o)

    You will see liberals rising up to praise him at one moment then conservatives. He is not an ideologue. He is an opportunist.

  131. Lydia wrote:

    You will see liberals rising up to praise him at one moment then conservatives. He is not an ideologue. He is an opportunist.

    TRUTH(TM) is whatever the client with the biggest retainer check says it is.

  132. Paul wrote:

    Russell Moore is a neo-Cal?

    Good Lord! Russell Moore was Dean of the School of Theology at Southern Seminary before his ERLC position … you don’t get tapped as Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology unless you are Calvinist!

  133. Max wrote:

    Paul wrote:

    Russell Moore is a neo-Cal?

    Good Lord! Russell Moore was Dean of the School of Theology at Southern Seminary before his ERLC position … you don’t get tapped as Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology unless you are Calvinist!

    “There is no Christ, only CALVIN.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg7MAacSPNM

  134. Pingback: An Open Letter to “Together for the Gospel”: Don’t Tether Your Future to C.J. Mahaney’s Past | futuristguy

  135. The scripture that is most appropriate in dealing with this horrific situation is this: the **entirety of Ezekiel 34.**

    However, what stands out in particular are *these* verses, verses 1 through 10:

    And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

    Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flock?

    Ye eat the fat, and clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.

    The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

    And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.

    My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

    Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    As I live saith the Lord God, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves and fed not my flock;

    Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;

    Thus saith the Lord God; behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and will cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

    This may have been written in post-exilic Babylonian captivity, but it’s just as true for today as it was back then. This Morales? Was no shepherd but in reality a beast of the field, a ravening wolf in sheep’s clothing!

    And this Mahaney and his Calvinista cohorts? Shepherds that are **not shepherds at all,** but care not ONE FIG in truth and reality for the precious sheep that God entrusted them with!!

    The Lord, I’m convinced, will hold these “men” accountable for the evils the do and allow. I know many people believe that the gifts have largely ceased for today, but you watch: these men are going to be held to an account: if not in our eyesight in this life, they **will be held to account** in the next. In the name of God they allow and encourage the rams to head-butt the ewes (yes, I’m carrying the metaphor a tetch far–for a reason!) and encourage a climate of respecting certain persons above others by dint of weath, position, and gender–something CLEARLY FORBIDDEN by Scripture. It’s right in the plain, untrammeled word of God!

    Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgement: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbor (Leviticus 19:15).

    Zelophehad’s daughters wouldn’t have stood any legal chance with these idolators: this is a phallic, patriarchal worship cult disguised as Christianity. They probably know not what they do, to be sure, but this is where it’s at spiritually!

    I know I’m preaching to the choir here, and maybe being presumptious and arrogant; please forgive me and bear with me a little. It’s good that the Wartburg Watch exists, and I really support you in your efforts: you guys do a **magnificent** job of exposing these Calvinistas with facts and enough righteously-earned snark to shame 10,000 Davids–if only these “men” loved God like David did!!

    However, let’s be blunt here: these “men” don’t really love Adonai Jehovah, Messiah Yeshua, or their ways: their hearts are **far from**
    Their ways.

    What’s really going on, and I hope this is self-evident: these “men” are IDOLATORS, and need to be spoken to and identified as such!! They have done something much more insidious than just regular Hindu, Babylonian, or even drug-addict idolatry: **they are worshipping the creation order–or what they inagine to be the creation order–rather than the Creator.**

    What they’re practicing is just a spiritual and psychological variant of what the Canaanites did to infants: causing their children to pass through the fire–yes, to be burned alive!–to that demon “god” Molech. Molech’s name, as you probably know, is etymologically related to the Arabic word malik, which translates as “king.” And I relate all this because this pseudo-shepherd Mahaney and his other pseudo-shepherds are more interested in worshipping their phallic power, their “lordship” over the flock, their money, and their POWER, POWER, POWER! than taking care of their flock.

    A beast of the field catches a sheep and devours it alive through sexual abuse? A babe in Christ screams as Molech’s red-hot hands burns the child alive? Ewes are battered, beaten, and starved from rams being allowed to head-butt and shoulder them around with impunity? That doesn’t bother false worshipper Mahaney any!!

    He’s not worshipping the same god as the Christians here on this page, albeit unknowingly…Pray for him, because his heart is deceiving him HUGELY!

    If I am wrong, may the Lord rebuke me personally and force me to repentance, so that I do not be condemned with the unbelievers at the Judgement Seat of Christ. If I’m being a false prophet and an accuser of the brethren, may the Lord silence my mouth forever so thar I sin no more. But if I am right, may the Lord prove these words true and ever expose more and more of the evils and idolatry of these false shepherds who place “biblical manhood” over the Lord Our God. They think that because they’re “men of God,” they can lord it over women and the rest of their flock. What they haven’t figured out is that God could raise up REAL SHEPHERDS from the rocks and stones if He wanted to…Theses “shepherds” have been taken captive by the demons Molech, Baal, Zeus, and Mammon.

    These are the EVIL spirits that you are combating through your website, for we do not battle flesh and blood; we battle principalities and powers, the rulers of the darkness of the age, spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6). May the Lord God of Israel grant you complete victory as you battle these evil demons and their human pawns.

    “There is no Christ, only CALVIN.” There’s wisdom here to be sure, but go back thousands more years: I think you will find that what Calvin did to Michael Servetus was predated by what was done once at Tophet in the Valley of Himnon…