"We met for a reason, either you're a blessing or a lesson." (link)
This coming Sunday is Easter, or Resurrection Sunday. Is anyone surprised that Mark Driscoll would begin his new ministry on that day? Here is how the announcement is being made on The Trinity Church's website. (see screen shot below)
Mark Driscoll goes on to describe the unusual features of the church building, stating that he has never seen one like it.
When his children saw it for the first time, they said it reminded them of a space ship. He then reveals the following: "Curiously enough, the building opened the same year that Star Trek debuted – 1966."
Upon reading Driscoll's description of the building, my immediate thought was…
a church is not a building!
The church website goes on to state:
Pastor Mark and his family moved to the Phoenix valley last year. After spending months praying specifically for a church building with 1,000+ seats along the 101 Freeway, Pastor Mark believes that God has supernaturally provided. Like most older church buildings, this one needs some service projects and financial investment to make it a good home, but we are excited about its potential.
We know that God has gone before us, preparing an opportunity to minister. This building provides a wonderful opportunity for our mission…
Grace Driscoll is totally on board because she believes God gave her this special verse last year. See screen shot below.
The church website also includes the following: (see screen shot below)
Why are we including so many screen shots you may ask? Because we have learned from experience that things seem to have a way of disappearing when it comes to Mark Driscoll (and we're not just talking about stuff on the internet!)
As you might imagine, folks in Seattle are staying apprised of what Mark Driscoll is doing in Phoenix. The Seattle Post Intelligencer recently reported the following:
Ex-Mars Hill Church senior pastor Mark Driscoll, relocated in Arizona, will launch the first "gathering" of his new Trinity Church on Easter Sunday at the Glass and Garden Drive-In Church in Scottsdale, Arizona.
The newly launched Driscoll congregation has signed a rental contract for the 50-year-old church, which opened on Easter Sunday in 1966. The official launch of the church has not yet been announced.
The resurrection of Driscoll's ministry at Easter comes less than two weeks after four former members of his now-defunct Mars Hill Church filed a racketeering suit against Driscoll and a top aide.
The suit seeks to know how millions of dollars in donations, raised for a planned Jesus Festival and for church "planting" in Ethiopia and India, were actually spent.
Internal documents have indicated that Mars Hill Global used the money to support a few showpiece foreign ministries but spent much of the money in the United States. The church boasted of raising more than $2.1 million for the Jesus Festival and related activities. But the planned festival was called off.
Almost two years ago, Dee wrote an excellent post — What Would Jesus Delete? On Mark Driscoll, RICO, Mars Hill and Lawyers. It is definitely worth reading!
And several weeks ago, Dee put together an interesting post entitled: Mark “Mickey the Mouse” Driscoll and Sutton “King Bus Driver” Turner Being Sued for Racketeering. ECFA, “The Accountant”, Named as Co-Conspirator.
As we have stated before, we believe that Mark Driscoll (more than any other pastor) built his reputation in large part because of his ability to create a huge presence on the internet. And as they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander… We and many others have used that very same communication tool to call attention to his abusive practices, which he would rather us just forget — see our post Mark Driscoll's Glaring Omission on His New Church Website.
We are grateful that our friend Eagle (aka David Bonner), who now has his own blog, has reached out to the Attorney General in Washington State regarding Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill. David has written a comprehensive communication, which we are including below. We greatly admire his boldness for standing up for those who have been run over by Driscoll and his out of control Mars Hill bus that finally crashed. It is our hope and prayer that Washington State's Attorney General will conduct a thorough investigation regarding what was once known in Seattle as Mars Hill Church.
An Open Letter to the Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson link
Attorney General Ferguson,
I am asking for your help and requesting for you to investigative where millions of dollars given to Mars Hill church ended up. Much of the money in the Mars Hill Global Fund disappeared and is unaccounted. I believe that the State of Washington should be deeply concerned as taxpayers were de-frauded. Let me explain this to you.
Mars Hill Church in Seattle had a fund called The Global Fund. In 2011 the Global Fund was re-worked as a means to increase giving. You can read Sutton Turner’s memo in this post by Warren Throckmorton. In the fiscal year of July 2012 to June 2013 nearly $2.3 million was donated. Many people gave this money under the impression that this money was going to be used in places such as Ethiopia and elsewhere abroad. Giving to the Global Fund was robust, for example in December 2013 a little over $340,000 was given.
This total from the 2013 statement of income and expenses doesn’t say where the money went. It just basically disappeared. Mars Hill changed the process and means of donations while encouraging people to give. This was confusing because previously money intended for global giving was marked as such. After the changes there were no guarantees as to where the money would go. According to Warren Throckmorton’s blog sources internal at Mars Hill said that less than 5% of the money went to India or Ethiopia. It was also reported at Warren’s website that it appeared that the intent of the Mars Hill Global fund was to use the poor abroad as a means to market Mars Hill. In other words Mars Hill was practicing exploitation.
Consider this first paragraph:
Global Focus
The vision and activities connected to the Global Fund must focus on reaching the worldwide church. As a person sits in front of his computer in Qatar, London, Cape Town, or Sydney, he does not care about Mars Hill planting in Everett. As an international citizen, however, he cares greatly about global evangelism, global missions, global causes for Jesus, global church-planting, etc. Though the sentiment is rare among Americans, people abroad feel a sense belonging and kinship with the global community.
As you can see Attorney General Ferguson people giving to the Global Fund wanted to give globally and have an impact in places like Africa and beyond. That was implied and that was what attracted people to give to the Global Fund. Next consider this additional paragraph:
Flagship Projects
Of the money that comes into the Global Fund, designate a fixed percentage internally for highly visible, marketable projects such as mission trips, orphan care, support for pastors and missionaries in the third world, etc. (ten to fifteen strategic operations in locations where Mars Hill wants to be long term). This percentage should be flexible (not a “tithe”), and not communicated to the public. Support for Mars Hill Global would be support for Mars Hill Church in general, but the difference and the draw would be that a portion of Global gifts would also benefit projects that spread the gospel and serve the needs of people around the world.
Keep in mind Attorney General Ferguson that this came from an internal memo that was not meant to be seen by the public. The paragraph on the memo notes that this is not meant to be communicated openly. So funds that were raised could be flexible and used for other purposes. So a person could give thinking they are giving to a Mars Hill function in India and instead the money can be diverted elsewhere. But consider this last section here:
The Global Fund could be beneficial in a number of ways, besides the obvious gain of increased funding:
• For a relatively low cost (e.g. $10K/month), supporting a few missionaries and benevolence projects would serve to deflect criticism, increase goodwill, and create opportunities to influence and learn from other ministries.
• Many small churches who may consider joining Mars Hill hesitate because they do not believe we support “missions.” While we need to continue to challenge the assumptions underlying a claim, the Global Fund would serve as a simple, easy way to deflate such criticism and help lead change in these congregations.
• The ability to communicate and interact with supporters of Mars Hill Global provides an avenue for promoting events, recruiting leaders, and developing Mars Hill core groups in strategic cities.
I would suggest that what this section proposes is how fraud takes place. I mean consider…in the above it appears as if Mars Hill believes that the poor are of use to the church and a benefit. Apparently The Global Fund was not used to help the poor as funds were solicited, instead the Global Fund became about church growth to encourage the church to grow bigger and possibly woo other churches into joining Mars Hill. In the business world Attorney General Ferguson we often had to abide by truth in advertising laws. What was sold had to be based off truth and not a false claim. At allbusiness.com here is how truth in advertising is defined:
Dictionary of Marketing Terms: for truth-in-advertising requirements by the Federal Trade Commission as well as various, state and local government agencies, that advertisements not make misleading, false, or deceptive claims. An advertisement can be deceptive without being an outright lie depending upon the perception it creates in the mind of the consumer. For example, a product that calls itself “light” may be nothing more than a slightly lower calorie version of its regular formula but will be perceived to be a low-calorie product. Or a beverage called an “orange juice drink” may contain primarily sugar and water with minuscule juice content. Deceptive advertising can be accomplished with pictures as well as words. In one famous case, a soup manufacturer placed marbles in the bottom of the bowl so that the contents of the soup rose to the surface in a photograph taken for their advertisements. An advertisement can also be considered deceptive if it makes a claim that is true but also leads the consumer to believe falsely that he same claim could not be made by competitive brands. For example, using “fat free” claims on a bottle of maple syrup might lead consumers to believe that other syrups contain fat.
But there is another financial issue that also should be looked at by the Washington Attorney General as well. Mars Hill took $210,000 and spent it at ResultSource, Inc (RSI) to get Mark Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” on the New York Times bestseller list. In taking this action it is strongly suggested that Mark Driscoll allegedly practiced inurement and that it is probably illegal. Dr. James Duncan wrote about this issue and how it is probably illegal here. Now I am not an expert but I would suggest that this is a federal issue as it deals with the IRS, and not a State of Washington issue. However, it also begs the question…if Mark Driscoll is allegedly circumventing IRS rules and regulations it is well within reason to ask…has the State of Washington being given the shaft by Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll?
Attorney General Ferguson as I study your efforts in the State of Washington these are some of the results of your work. I am deeply impressed and the State is fortunate to have you as the top law enforcement official.
On March 1, 2016 you released a statement about a wheelchair company that fraudulently billed Medicaid. Your efforts resulted in the owner having to pay $2.7 million back to Medicaid.
Your office has also gone after those who filed false tax returns, like you did in this recent case involving a Snohomish County Glass shop.
Then there is this situation with improper billing by Sea Mar Health Centers. You office released a statement on this situation and announced that you are recovering $3.35 million dollars.
Finally a few days ago your office intervened in the Christian Prayer Center which used deceptive advertising techniques. As a result of your work nearly $7.8 million is being returned to 165,000 people. Your office issued a statement on the situation which can be read here.
Attorney General Ferguson I could go on but as I read your webpage it becomes very clear that you take fraud and protection of consumers very seriously. It is for this reason that I write and ask you to do the following. I am asking you to investigate Mars Hill Church and if possible recover $2.3 million dollars that disappeared. This issue was never cleared up even as Mars Hill closed its doors on January 1, 2015. There are people who gave money that still don’t know where the money went. It can’t be documented that it went to India or Ethiopia or elsewhere. If you look at some of the above efforts to recover money in fraud cases this falls well within those boundaries. For example in the case of Wheelchairs Plus which is the first example I cited your efforts resulted in $2.7 million being returned. That is not financially far off from Mars Hill’s missing money from the Global Fund. There are many reasons why I am asking you to look into this situation at the former Mars Hill Seattle:
To prevent other questionable entities engaging in similar questionable practices. Investigating and coming down hard on someone like Mark Driscoll could send a bold, and clear message that such behavior is not acceptable. This could act as a great deterrent.
It would protect those who have given money under a false pretense and help them with healing especially when they see their legal system at work, working to protect them. Its crucial that acts of injustice where allegations of illegalities take place be properly investigated so that the facts can be ascertained and made known.
I would suggest that everyone who gave to the Global Fund has been the victim of fraud. These are Washington citizens and taxpayers that deserve to see their system at work protecting them and working to resolve this situation.
As I mentioned above I would suggest that raising money under one pretense and then using it for another is a violation of Truth-in-Advertising Laws. The Global Fund was originally marketed for one express purpose. Then that changed.
In addition Attorney General Ferguson there are many outstanding questions that deserve to be raised and looked into which I hope will get a hearing. For example please consider the following questions that deserve answers which an investigation would uncover.
This Sunday March 27, 2016 Mark Driscoll is launching The Trinity Church in Phoenix, Arizona. The question that hangs in my mind is the following…where is he getting all the money to launch this church? Is the source of the money coming from The Global Fund? If so that raises other questions…what are the legal ramifications of money raised in Washington for one specific purpose that could then allegedly be used in the State of Arizona? Are there financial laws that come into play especially if large amounts of money are transferred between two differing states? I don’t know Attorney General Ferguson but I am thinking out loud and asking this publically.
One question I have which has been persistent is what role did Sutton Turner play in The Global Fund? At Warren Throckmorton on May 5, 2015 it was revealed that Sutton omitted discussion about The Global Fund per his lawyers request. Does Sutton Turner know where nearly $2.3 million dollars ended up? His actions deserve to be investigated fully.
It is well within reason to ask this Attorney General Ferguson, but are there other undisclosed financial improprieties that took place at Mars Hill that were done under a false pretense? This should be looked into as well.
These are all issues that need attention and your help. You recently intervened in a fraudulent prayer scheme online and helped bring justice in that situation. I am requesting you to intervene in the saga of Mars Hill. It is my belief that fraud took place, and that many people were victims of dishonest fundraising. Money was solicited from them in one pretense and then much of what existed in the Global Fund disappeared. They don’t know where it went, plus you should be aware that there is an active RICO lawsuit recently which was filed. Many of the people who once attended Mars Hill Seattle deserve to know the answers to what happened to nearly $2.3 million dollars. Some gave sacrificially, some gave regularly. When fraud happens Attorney General Ferguson its done to those who are vulnerable and the reality is that anyone can be vulnerable. Its my hope that you will act and start to look into this manner.
I write this with the deepest respect and thank you for your civil service.
Very Respectfully,
David Bonner
Hey–first? (Gotta keep it going)
Very nice Eagle! I pray these criminals would be brought to justice and that every crooked deceptive pastor out there would shudder before following in their foot steps… Fingers crossed 😉
Would “Pastor Mark” ever admit to the fact that Satan (Satin? ;o))can supernaturally provide, too?
Maybe Grace should read the last verse in the book of Isaiah.
Wayne Grudem, two Sovereign Grace churches and now Mark Driscoll is reviving his “bus ministry.” I can hardly wait to get back to AZ.
I bet all of Christendom will soon be beating a path to Phoenix. It may become the Protestant version of Rome!
Oh, brother, the dishonest, manipulative pastor of a church I used to go to overused that verse about God “doing a new thing” to the point I can’t even read it anymore, it’s ruined for me.
Yes, just open the Bible and pick out a random verse or let one pop into your mind and suddenly God is obligated to provide what you wish for. It’s just like magic. Magical thinking. Name it and claim it.
The letter was emailed to the Attorney General’s office the other night. I sent my East Coast Mom the email I received, “Thank you, we’ll be in touch…” I also tweeted it to Sutton Turner and Mark Driscoll. 🙂
Is anyone surprised that Mark Driscoll would begin his new ministry on that day?
Appalled at the sheer arrogance? Yes.
Dismayed? Yes.
Surprised? …no not really. :-/
Why the church is caught up in this whole top-down rut is baffling; it seems contrary to Jesus. Just today Simon Sinek (Leaders Eat Last; Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t), noted:”The genius at the top doesn’t make the team look good. A good team makes the person at the top look like a genius.”
I have wondered why God never gives a mega pastor (or his wife) a verse like Daniel 5:27: “You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting.”
I read an article on Yahoo this week listing the 15 wealthiest ministers/pastors in America. The list contained Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Paula White, Billy Graham, T.D. Jakes and several more. I don’t think Driscoll is far behind on this list. It just makes me sick. Thanks to Eagle and others like him for exposing their duplicity. We need lots more of this.
Great job, David!
We pray for those who have illnesses or injuries, yet we also seek help from the doctors in whom God has placed intelligence and talent.
It’s the same with these abusive demagogues who are diseases in the Body of Christ. We pray that God intervene, yet we also seek help from the government authorities whom God has established.
The self-promoting religionists who hide behind the First Amendment must be hit where it hurts most – their ill-gotten money.
@ Tree:
Faster than congregants leaving a church after the annual appeal to build the next $40 million addition.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Or a bernie Madoff type Ponzi scheme. I wonder-how much money did Wayne Grudem get from CJ Mahaney?
@ Bilbo:
I want to know why pastors always get a call to go to a new job (pastorate) that pays a whole lot more.
Of course Deep Throat Driscoll’s MINISTRY(TM) will be Resurrected on Easter!
DTD’s MINISTRY(TM) *IS* GAWD!
DON’T YOU KNOW THAT?
(Or you get punched in the nose and thrown under the bus! “ME MAN! RAWR!”)
Spaceship “church” and the new MD cult? I wonder if they will pass around the Kool-aid Easter Sunday at their launch as well.
Seriously, I hope the state uses its full weight to expose all the MHC dark deeds to light. Time will tell…
Driscoll wouldn’t have a stage if he didn’t have an audience. American “Christians” are the most gullible folks on the planet! It’s not a question of whether Driscollites are uninformed or misinformed about his misbehaving (there’s plenty for the cyberspace-savvy to read), they are choosing to be willingly ignorant as they rally behind his unrepentant comeback.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes the New Calvinist elite to once again come alongside the potty-mouth from Seattle. Of course, Driscoll’s “new thing” might be even too much for them to swallow. The “river in the desert” may very well prove to be another polluted stream.
How about those who know what and who these guys are and they still support them! Come on we all can’t be this ignorant or in the dark about who these men are!Uncle Dad wrote:
Harley wrote:
I have to say, I don’t mind when they get rich from writing books (unless the books are bad/evil) which is what most of that list looks like. It’s when the salaries are outsized and the free house is a million dollar one that I start to get concerned…
On driscoll, it seems like people should be checking up on new ‘famous’ pastors who suddenly end up in their area before jumping in. This whole thing made me google my pastor (which showed nothing but the church website).
Max wrote:
Sadly, Jesus predicted this. In Matthew 24:24-25, He says: “For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you so.“
marquis wrote:
I think there is something inherent in human nature that leans toward authoritarianism as shown in the repetitiveness of these hierarchical authoritarian structures seen throughout history.
As is being noted, it isn’t just the authoritarian *leadership* that results in abuse, it is also the authoritarian *submissives” that combine with that leadership. An abusive leader without followers is limited.
Paul saw and wrote about the character of the authoritarians as well as those who submit to those abusive authoritarians in 2 Cor. 11:
“13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
19 For you, being so wise, gladly put up with fools!
20 In fact, you put up with it if someone enslaves you, if someone devours you, if someone captures you, if someone dominates you, or if someone hits you in the face.”
I found the following article informative.
http://sanctuaryweb.com/Portals/0/2010%20PDFs%20NEW/2010%20Bloom%20Authoritarianism.pdf
Quoting from it regarding “authoritarian submission:”
“People who are high in authoritarian submission generally accept the statements and actions of established authorities and believe that those authorities should be trusted and deserve both obedience and respect, by virtue of their positions. They place narrow limits on other people’s rights to criticize authority figures and tend to assume that critics of those authority figures are always wrong. Criticism of established authority is viewed as divisive and even destructive and motivated by little except a desire to cause trouble. For such people, when authority figures break the law, they have an inherent right to do so, even if the rest of us cannot.”
and
” In investigating the cognitive behavior of authoritarianism, Altemeyer found that authoritarians do not spend much time examining evidence, thinking critically, reaching independent conclusions, or seeing whether their conclusions mesh with other things they believe. They largely accept what authority figures have told them is true and have difficulty identifying falsehoods on their own. They copy other people’s opinions without critically evaluating them if those opinions come from someone with established authority.”
and
“They do not mentally reverse situations and put themselves in “the other person’s shoes”. They examine ideas less than other people and tend to surround themselves with people who agree with them and do not contradict them. They show a “hefty double standard” when testing whether something is true or not: if evidence supports what they believe they accept it unquestioningly as truth; if evidence fails to support what they believe, they tend to throw out the evidence. Since they tend not to be able to think independently, they are vulnerable to mistaken judgments and can be astonishingly gullible when an insincere communicator bears the trappings of authority.”
Isn’t this the dynamic that we see over and over in the various types of church abuse situations?
The abusive authoritarians are responsible for much, but the people who submit themselves to these abusive authoritarians also share some culpability.
There is something in these authoritarian structures that is appealing to those who submit themselves to it. Paul wrote that men GLADLY put up with men who make us slaves, dominate us, devour us while thinking that we are being WISE in doing so.
Bilbo wrote:
LOL.
Or how about,
As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly. (Proverbs 26:11)
Lea wrote:
I do mind.
They are making merchandise of us.
I have not purchased any books from churchianity’s leaders in years – and have no intention of ever doing so again. Though I spent many years and dollars doing so in the past.
Most of the time their books are just a rehashment of what they have been teaching from their pulpits.
And they have already been financially compensated for their pulpit- pronouncements.
So, why repackage it all up and print it up in books and promote it out in conventions & seminars?
Greed.
“Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.”
“In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. “
It wasn’t clear from the original announcement that Driscoll was going to move into the old Glass and Garden church as his first church in Phoenix. Did the wording change? Here’s the current wording:
As far as the building is concerned, it is one of the more unusual buildings in the Phoenix area, and, given the massive growth over the region in the last half-century, it is one of the older buildings in the area. I do have to admit a bit of fondness for the blue glass in the roof as there was a time (prior to the invention of modern pigments) when blue glass was quite rare and valuable.
Regarding Phoenix becoming some sort of hub…can I just say YIKES?
Burwell wrote:
Yes, Jesus warned us sufficiently, but church folks continue to fall for that which ranges from soothing words … to aberrant theology … to all-out deception. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Believers just need to read their Bibles and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide them into Truth, rather than following some man who says he has it.
Max wrote:
This is true, but at some point the truth will be revealed by a loving source; i.e. the Holy Spirit, the Bible, a friend, an associate, family member, etc. Then what you do with the previous erroneous belief/teaching is of paramount importance.
Max wrote:
As John said, you’re not in need of teachers, you have the Holy Spirit. Instead, people who won’t put up with the simple truth and sound doctrine gather to themselves those who’ll give their itching ears what they want to hear.
mirele wrote:
I gotta fess’ up that I too have a certain liking for it. I’m betting that the roof dome is parabolic in shape as well as the archway entrance. I’ve always been fascinated with the conic sections and especially the parabola.
Grace Driscoll having an annual verse for 2015 makes me think of the practice some people have of adopting a life verse. It seems to me that this is a misuse – or perhaps even abuse – of the Bible: I Can Live Without A “Life Verse” (and so can you).
Tim wrote:
I had never even heard of a ‘life verse’! What these people won’t come up with. Sheesh.
Lea wrote:
Ain’t that the truth!
Commercial churchianity must *always* come up with a new product.
My life verse is I Chronicles 26:18, “At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.”
Another favorite is Job 36:33, “The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.”
(I’m not mocking the Bible; just people who use it stupidily.)
Tim wrote:
I had heard of a “life verse,” but I never knew how you were supposed to pick one out. I guess people use bibliomancy? (Basically, taking a holy book, in this case, a Bible, and letting it fall open to a page?) I have no idea. I have verses of the Bible I like to read for comfort when I’m a bit rattled, but I don’t see Philippians 4:13 as a life verse.
@ Uncle Dad:
HAha! Mine is the one forbidding the cooking of meat in goats milk. I like that law.
Uncle Dad wrote:
Here’s one that gives me daily guidance: “Designate a place outside the camp where you can go to relieve yourself. As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.” (Deuteronomy 23:12-13.)
Good bowels movements are a blessing.
mirele wrote:
I created a meme on picking the perfect verse, hoping to be humorous. (It’s in the link I posted above.) How anyone can make sure they get the right one is beyond me.
@ Tim:
That means that flush toilets are “unbiblical”! Heathens! Heathens, I say!
(Man, talk about wandering off topic…)
@ Tim:
Oh yes! There was a big Jeremiah 29:11 craze in the mega world…people signed cards with it, put it on email tags and such…..blech. I think they need to read the whole book in context!
Max wrote:
I totally agreed with the first half of your post. If Christians would stop throwing money at these clowns, they would dry up and blow way.
About the second half there – Driscoll has also been flirting with Charismatic types over the last year, preachers who are more into Word of Faith theology, etc.
@ Tim:
Haha.. You guys are cracking me up. Did God put anything about being downstream? oh wait…
:o)
Lydia wrote:
I’m growing more and more partial to 1Timothy 5:23: “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.”
BL wrote:
Can you imagine Paul selling copies of his letters in his travels?
My blog *life * verse is:
“From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.” Jeremiah 6:13.
This is why I believe it when people tell me their stories.
@ Nancy2:
Oh yes. My new cheap favorite, Apothic Red.
dee wrote:
Okay, I’ll play!
“But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)– well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.” Gal 2:6
I suggest that it be used at all future men’s conferences as they introduce all the ‘big names’ from the stage…
Lydia wrote:
I remember a praise chorus using only this verse, written by the music pastor of a mega-church. It was catchy. In context it could be a powerful teaching tool. I’m not sure how many people used it in context, though.
BL wrote:
Takes BIG Buck$ to keep up with the Furtick$ and Creflo Dollar$…
And she gets to be QUEEN BEE from Day One!
Tim wrote:
Sounds like the Ultimate 7/11 Worship(TM) Chorus — Seven (or less) words repeated Eleven (or more) times.
Mindless Mantras, Thoughtstoppers, and Ad Jingles usually are.
In practice, a Mantra or Thoughtstopper.
(What do these guys think of older Christian mantras such as the Hail Mary or Jesus Prayer?)
Nancy2 wrote:
To which Gene Scott commented, “I think I’m safe. I don’t drink ‘longer water’.”
(Then he went on to “Any alcoholic can quote that chapter-and-verse!”)
Tim wrote:
No Skubalon when you get to our age.
I understand Orthodox Judaism has a special prayer or blessing for the occasion.
Because being able to go means you’re still alive.
Lydia wrote:
It’s meant to refer to any dairy products..
Daisy wrote:
“The dog returns to its vomit,
The sow returns to her mire,
And the burnt fool’s bandaged finger
Wobbles back into the fire…”
— Rudyard Kipling, “Gods of the Copybook Headings”
(Explanation of “Copybook Headings”: In Victorian times (and a lot of today’s Third World school systems), school textbooks were too expensive to buy for each student. (Instead, students were given blank notebooks or “copybooks” and would copy out the lesson from the printed textbook. These copybooks often had moral aphorisms or cultural “wisdom literature” sayings printed on the headings of each page.)
Nancy2 wrote:
I think I like: 6:Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. 7:Let him drink and forget his poverty And remember his trouble no more.
Like the Elders on the Elders’ Board of this Celebrity Lead Pastor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#/media/File:Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin.jpg
Why’s such a big building available?
The Glass and Garden congregation was decimated after its pastor’s embezzling was exposed a decade ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2006/09/30/thou-shalt-not-steal-from-fellow-congregants/de3d5737-a3ed-4ac9-8e48-c8676889934c/
Daisy wrote:
Yes, certain Assembly of God folks propped Driscoll up during his time of restoring. I fully expect Dricoll to emerge in Phoenix with some new spin on Charismatic Calvinism … that way, he can attract members from the Pentecostal ranks, as well as his old reformed network.
Lydia wrote:
There it is… and roger that…
They should do the same with the book of Isaiah.
Victorious wrote:
Let me give you a fresh example of this, Victorious. I just returned from the grocery store a few minutes ago. While there, we met a couple we had been in church with years ago. Unfortunately, that SBC church was recently taken over by a group of New Calvinists, with a young pastor who had lied his way into the pulpit … resulting in a church split when he set up elder-rule governance. I asked this couple why they had stayed knowing that he must have been disturbe by this development; he responded that several of the old friends (all 65+) had opted to remain in their Sunday School fellowship and essentially ignore the younger folks. I then asked him if he was financially supporting the church leaders and their agenda since he did not agree with their theological belief and practice. He said “Of course, I give to the church out of a good heart – what the young fellows do with it is their responsibility.” I then advised him what New Calvinism was doing on a larger scale across the SBC, to which he didn’t have much of a clue about, but was visibly upset. I then told him regarding his tithing “Now that I’ve warned you, you are directly responsible before God for your continued giving there.”
Isaiah 43:19 …… Grace Droscoll’s special verse for the year …… “rivers in the desert.
The Gila River comes to mind. If you’ve ever seen the Gila River, you know what I mean! Maybe MD should try canoeing up the Gila.
An excellent, and related, blog post by Pastor Wade Burleson at wadeburleson.org entitled “Don’t Make the Mistake of Getting Your Theology on Hell from the Story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.”
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2016/03/dont-make-mistake-of-getting-your.html?m=1
Hopefully the link works. Wonderful insight with this pointed message — Jesus’ in his earthly ministry didn’t focus on abuse of the politically powerful; yet he often spoke strongly to those with spiritual authority to protect his people from abuse, from their own actions or of others in positions of spiritual leadership or authority!
mirele wrote:
In his previous ministry, Driscoll came up with a whole new chapter … Acts 29!
Max wrote:
I would add that first he has a responsibility to verify the truth/information that you’ve provided. Generally, I think, solid/verifiable evidence is required to make a wise decision about such circumstances. I think you would agree. 🙂
One indication that Driscoll is over and may not make a come back:
I’m so far not seeing any Driscoll sycophants on this thread (or the last few here about Driscoll) show up and chew out Deb, Dee, and the rest of us for being critical of Driscoll.
Sometimes the preacher fan boys remind me of this video about Briteny Spears (there’s some vulgar language in the video):
Chris Crocker: Leave Britney Alone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqfTLgHbhxs
I keep expecting to see a similar “Leave Mark Driscoll alone!” video one of these days. Or a “Leave [insert whatever other preacher’s name here] alone!,” video etc.
Uncle Dad wrote:
Yeah, LOL. I couldn’t help but think of the verses about Lot sleeping with his daughters.
Jerome wrote:
We’ve had a number of these scandals in the Phoenix area, it seems like about once a year. The biggest of all was the Baptist Foundation of Arizona’s collapse in the late 1990s (and it took years to clean up). The foundation had only $70 million in assets as opposed to $530 million in liabilities. Something like $140 million in loans were made to two (then) current and one former director of the organization. It’s the largest religious financial organization collapse in US history. A lot of retired people here in the state ended up getting next to nothing in aftermath of the collapse.
Driscoll is going to have to work hard to top losing $460 million in assets.
@ Victoriousverify the truth/information that you’ve provided:
Yes, I would certainly agree with that! I have been this man’s teacher and friend, so he trusts me … but he – like so many other older Southern Baptists – need to personally look into what is happening in and to the Southern Baptist Convention. They have given their lives to a denomination that is trending toward a belief and practice they would not identify with. The silence of SBC millions over the past 10 years, as Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination on the planet has taken place, has been deafening! Initially, the young reformers walked into leadership roles through stealth and deception, but are now out in the open – most SBC entities are now under Calvinist leadership and its church planting movement leans reformed. SBC’s non-Calvinist majority need only to look and listen as they ought, rather than blindly supporting what they do not agree with.
You know, I am so happy MD did not come to Texas….we have our fair share of ” questionable” mega-preachers already…
And I so hope the Washington State AG looks at this….then again, he might be saying, ” good riddance .”
K.D. wrote:
I attended Robert Morris’s church last month!
@Daisy, this is OT, but I’ve been reading some back threads since I found this site (and a few others) and just wanted to say I wish you well.
HAha! Mine is the one forbidding the cooking of meat in goats milk. I like that law.
Lydia, you crack me up!
@ Jerome:
Good to see MD keeping the tradition alive.
mirele wrote:
But I’m sure he’ll give a college try!
The verse about goats and milk is this from Exodus 3:19
“You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk.”
This doesn’t forbid cooking beef in goats milk, but cooking a kid in its own mother’s milk. This verse led to the formation of many of the rules of Kashrut (Jewish dietary laws).
Max wrote:
This is so true. Case in point. I would dare say most members of my SB church have no idea who J.D. Greear is. If he is elected SBC president, I guess they'll recognize his name then, or maybe not…
Daisy wrote:
Just what I was thinking too.
@ BL:
“I have not purchased any books from churchianity’s leaders in years – and have no intention of ever doing so again. Though I spent many years and dollars doing so in the past.
Most of the time their books are just a rehashment of what they have been teaching from their pulpits.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
and it’s boring. old news, that’s been said over and over again by every pastor & speaker for years and years.
it’s like inspiration was turned off hard at the tap many years ago.
everything is circulated amongst leaders — ideas, programs, sermons, campaigns for doing this or that. I haven’t heard or experienced a new & fresh idea in christian world in at least 20 years.
i’m sure it has something to do with all the constant twittering of every thought, all the networking (to rally various forms of political power?), monetizing absolutely everything in Christian culture (sermons, bible studies, thoughts and ideas, sunday school, VBS, every single time a song is sung…).
Chursh is run by literally buying and selling all of these things.
Church-in-a-box.
Christianity-in-a-box.
Being on the receiving end is like being served up one TV dinner after another.
i’m really just floored at how boring it’s all become. No matter what church I may attend, or visit, or Christian speaker I may go listen to. it’s weird. like people who have lost their identity, and they’re simply copying others they want to be like or are supposed to be like (like young teen agers sometimes do). it’s kind of robotic-like. synthetic.
It’s just like going shopping, and you see all the same clothes everywhere — same styles, even the same fabrics & patterns. and of course the fashion industry makes all these decisions each year for what we will wear.
I feel like the Christian industry has done the same, and marketed it all out to all the franchises (your church & mine). they’ve made all the decisions for what I will hear, see, do, & experience.
and I resent it, to the moon and back.
i’m done. so completely done.
@ siteseer:
I can relate to not being able to hear overused phrases. I personally want to vomit when I hear the phrase, “Doing life together”. That was used by my pastor who ended up gossiping and lying. And the pastor I had who plagarized most of his sermons used alliteration in all of his messages so I can’t listen to sermons using that technique either.
Former CLCer wrote:
Oooh, I have some of those…
Intentional
Missional
Season
Servant-Leader
Gospel (as an adjective)
Love offering
Jezebel spirit
Authentic
Doing church
Felt needs
Cast vision
@ BL:
Another one that makes my head explode:
“Our DNA” or “Spiritual DNA”
@ Law Prof:
Another:
“Loving you well” (translation: abusing you viciously)
Bilbo wrote:
Possibly he does, but they are not listening. They’re busy picking out the ones that please them.
@ BL:
If I never hear ‘servant leader’ again it will be too soon! Somebody even mentioned it at work. Hint, church bros, you are called to be servants. Period. Try that for a while and get back to me. Ugh.
I don’t read christian books, just like I don’t real political books. They are kind of in the same category. I read history and fiction.
Law Prof wrote:
Yeah, that’s a good one.
Plugged in
Prayer warrior
Prayer walk
God thing
Servant’s heart
“Dead flies make a perfumer’s oil stink”
Ecc 10:1
ha ha, this thread is really cracking me up
BL wrote:
aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh!
@ BL:
Winsome
Unpack verses
Gospel-centered
Umregenerate
And…
Church planting churches
Deb wrote:
Relational
Transparent
Radical
Let’s just ban all trite phrases in church and see what we have to talk about!
BL wrote:
Oh yes. You won’t hear much preaching in YRR churches where Gospel is a noun! Webster defines Gospel (noun) as “the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation.” The average New Calvinist sermon won’t draw you to Christ, the Kingdom or salvation … certainly not the New Testament pattern! You will hear a lot about “God”, with only occasional mention of Jesus, and hardly a word about the Holy Spirit. New Calvinist sermons are littered with mumbo-jumbo about gospel-centered this and that. Since Calvinism = Gospel to the reformed mind, they are really saying Calvinist-centered … it’s all about leading folks to a theology, rather than the Living Christ.
Deb wrote:
Church planting in the New Calvinist movement is more about planting theology, than churches.
spiritual authority
obey your leaders
rebellious spirit
sacrificial giving
church membership
community of faith
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Laughter is medicine for the soul == or something like that.
Thanks for the refreshing dose of “soul tonic.”
Deb wrote:
Impart
Gifting
@ Max:
David Platt:
“Let us defend sexual complementarity with God’s word. Let’s defend sexual complementarity with our lives and our marriages through pictures of husbands as heads and wives as helpers, loving authority — glad submission in the context of beautiful relationships — and let’s do this for the sake of” (replace “the gospel” with it’s defn) the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation “in the world.”
(Snort)
gossip
bitter
unforgiving
Ardiak wrote:
Covering
Accountability, Accountability partner
Apostolic
Church covenant
Transformational
David Platt:
“Let us defend sexual complementarity with God’s word. Let’s defend sexual complementarity with our lives and our marriages through pictures of husbands as heads and wives as helpers, loving authority — glad submission in the context of beautiful relationships — and let’s do this for the sake of” (replace “the gospel” with it’s defn) the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation “in the world.”
This unbiblical nonsense makes me want to throw up. He does not know what the he** he is talking about.
@ Uncle Dad:
“That means that flush toilets are “unbiblical”! Heathens! Heathens, I say!”
+++++++++++++++++++
time to manufacture some more doctrine (just for sport). i’m sure there’s money to be made here.
@ mirele:
“I had heard of a “life verse,” but I never knew how you were supposed to pick one out.”
+++++++++++++++++++
don’t know exactly, but this seems as good as any: “I wish that those who are upsetting you would castrate themselves!” Galatians 5:12 😮
@ Nancy2:
The New Calvinists have diluted gospel to the point that it isn’t Gospel any more. If Christ was truly at the center of their gospel-centered message, they would know that “there is no male and female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.” As believers, we are in this thing together for the cause of Christ … rather than assigning roles of superiority over each other.
Now dontcha think it would be better if Mark waited until things like – I dunno, a RICO LAWSUIT MAYBE – were settled before launching his new project? Just a thought.
@ BL:
Former CLCer wrote: “I can relate to not being able to hear overused phrases.”
‘BL wrote: “Oooh, I have some of those…”
+++++++++++++++
wow, all kinds of games tonight!
47. tribe
48. tribal
49. fellowship
50. with one another (good grief, church makes people talk weird)
@ BL:
Christ-follower (rather than Believer)
Lead Pastor (rather than Senior Pastor)
Teaching Elder (the main Bible man)
My favorite is “unpack the verse”, as listed by an earlier commenter. Every time I hear this, I cringe. The young reformers make it sound like the Bible is nothing more than a piece of luggage that they alone are capable of “unpacking” via their superior intellect. Yep, the New Calvinists have it all figured out – the rest of us are spiritual idiots and can’t hear God ourselves. To which I respond in Hebrew “Baloney!” I hope I live long enough to see these young whippersnappers pack up their verses in their bags and high-tail it out of town!
@ Nancy2:
““Let us defend sexual complementarity with God’s word. Let’s defend sexual complementarity with our lives …..
++++++++++++++++++
ah, so it is their hill to die on.
(‘sexual complementarity’, that’s just…. yuuck… might as well throw in intercourse, menstruation, just for good measure)
Max wrote:
As a guy with 160 IQ myself, every time I hear “Superior Intellect”, this is what comes to mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIPr23xyoZg
mot wrote:
Translation: “BOYZ RULE! GURLZ DROOL! GOD SAITH!!!!!”
Max wrote:
60 years ago, it would have been Communism instead of Calvinism.
BL wrote:
There’s a great opportunity for either a filk or Praise Chorus there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qHX493bB3U
Law Prof wrote:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
elastigirl wrote:
I’m feeling really weird tonight.
Here’s some classic Firesign Theater:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY-FOI-9SOE
elastigirl wrote:
And getting even weirder with SNL (possible NSFW):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZRsumhvn4U
@ elastigirl:
If the men had their way in SBC churches women would be of a stepford nature. I will let the Lord decide but are these men really “saved.” How they have perverted the scriptures and the nature of church.
mot wrote:
And yet they (not just Platt, Calvary Chapel too) will claim with all certainty that this is what the Bible ‘teaches’, with no regard to gifting or talent, based solely on plumbing received at birth. It’s good to see that so many are beginning to think for themselves and are contesting this tommy-rot.
@ Muff Potter:
I’m sure God knows– but how many women have left the SBC because they are tired of just being a decoration or expected to do the “lesser” jobs?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I'm impressed!
mot wrote:
More than a few I would expect. And if not, they’re probably considering it. No human wants to be thought of as less than what their talents and leanings warrant, things that transcend gender as surely as do race, color, and creed.
Muff Potter wrote:
That would be me – teetering on the very edge, actually. And I have been an SBC church member since 1978, and my husband is a part time preacher. If I’m that close to walking away, how many more are, too?
elastigirl wrote:
@ Bridget:
LOL
@ Deb:
Unregenerate
My iPhone doesn’t recognize this word. It changed the spelling in my previous comment, and I didn’t realize it.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m dying over here! ha ha ha!
Judas was another person that tried to use Jesus for his own agenda and cashed in along the way. Maybe he should have hopped on a plane to Arizona instead of hanging himself. I would offend if instead I were to suggest Driscoll follow Judas example.
dee wrote:
Bahahaha! You are killing.me. 😉
Muff Potter wrote:
Hal Lindsay claimed with all certainty that the Bible plainly teaches that the Demon Locusts of Revelation were helicopter gunships armed with chemical weapons and piloted by long-haired bearded hippies.
That’s what comes to mind whenever someone tries to claim “The Plain Meaning of SCRIPTURE(TM)”.
Muff Potter wrote:
Since there are both chromosomal & physical ambiguities that exist at birth, as well as the occasional trauma resulting in penectomy – have any of the hardcore comps ever addressed that reality?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Haha….spilling my morning coffee! Takes me right back to kindergarten recess antics.
Max wrote:
For sure! The facts are, many of the *plantings*, are actually takeovers of existing churches.
@ mot:
Well, he once put his life on the line for the Gospel at the dangerous Dubai Marriott. :o)
@ Remnant:
I should have looked it up in order to be very specific. I still agree with it. :o)
@ Deb:
The only people in my former church who will know who he is are the YRR who took over and all the SBTS students now attending.
mot wrote:
Correct. That is what drives me up the wall as well.
@ elastigirl:
I agree but wonder if it is boring because they have tried for so long to make it something it isn’t to get people to come to church and follow them? It is all so guru focused now.
@ BL:
Season
Gathering
Gospel everything
mot wrote:
I left because as an adult I got so so tired of seeing Every man on the bulletin listed as a ‘pastor’ and Every woman listed as director, singer, secretary…etc. if you gave the women’s jobs to a man they would call them a pastor. It is stupid. Bye bye baptists.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Maybe having new acolytes to praise him will help?
@ elastigirl:
Nor exactly an equal opportunity verse, is it? :o)
I don’t know what you all did ‘for lent’ but I thought I would read The Cost of Discipleship-not my first time with that book and won’t be the last. Here was a man living and writing while his church and his nation were falling apart, except a lot of folks did not seen to notice that. Well, so are we.
Then during this Holy Week I spent Tuesday night at the hospital while one near and dear to me had an emergency procedure and then yesterday with the same one who has a diagnostic procedure followup, and all the while I contemplated mortality. And now I am watching some of the grandkids while someone else near and dear takes a turn at the long vigil at church remembering when Jesus said to the guys can you not watch with me even one hour.
I don’t know how people survive the living of life if they have gotten to the place where they see church/discipleship as just one more special entertainment and one more dose of pious platitudes and one more meet and greet. Of what help is that in the middle of some night in some deserted hospital waiting room while contemplating mortality?
Today is Friday but, like the fellow said, Sunday is coming.
Remnant wrote:
Could never be Kosher…..
In Texas, one of the mainstays of the diet is Chicken Fried Steak covered in cream gravy….a no-no in those who keep Kosher Dietary Laws.
We just got to see this in action at my little church near SEBTS. The influence in this area among pastors is almost inescapable, yet congregations are shockingly uninformed of the revolution that has turned their beloved SBC upside down. Two years ago we hired a pastor after being without one for over a year, and out of ignorance and desperation the search committee overlooked a telling statement during the interview process. When asked flat out “are you a Calvinist?” the answer was “let’s just say I believe in the sovereignty of God.” When I found out about this shortly AFTER the young man was hired, I knew what we had on our hands. This fellow immediately had the deacons study through a book about elder led churches, began a 9Marks of a Healthy Church study on Sunday nights, did away with the tradition of extending an invitation to salvation at the end of every worship service, and began quoting Driscoll and Piper ad nauseum in every sermon. In fact, often he read entire paragraphs and even whole articles (once I timed him reading Driscoll for 13 minutes on a Sunday morning). I don’t know what others did or said, but my husband spoke to him often and at length about these things. He would nod his head as if listening and then argue on and on without breathing about why his actions were right. When specifically approached with damning quotes from Driscoll, and evidence of Driscoll’s horrifying practices, his response was that Driscoll had repented publicly and anyway, his doctrine is correct so the points he was quoting were fine. He saw no problem. This fellow just left us for a full blown Reformed multi-elder led congregation nearby, and I’m sure he’s a better fit there. But in the wake of his passing by, my sweet little church is hurt, misled, again without a pastor, and still unaware of why Pastor “just wasn’t a good fit for us”. Ripe for picking off yet again, yet with no hunger be taught of the Holy Spirit. You just can’t force people to hear the truth.
Victorious wrote:
Regarding my previous comment….another thing that just left my mouth like ashes, and relates to the conversation on this thread about “life verses”.
When this guy resigned he stood up in from of God and everybody and said he and his wife had been “given a verse” as they struggled over the decision to leave. Here it is, Isaiah 43:18-19 –
“Remember not the former things,
nor consider the things of old.
Behold, I am doing a new thing;
now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
Thank you very much, I suppose we are the old things you’re leaving behind. Nothing like being insulted from the pulpit.
Correction. *in front of God and everybody.
I hate typos.
@ Bookbolter:
“elder led churches”
One thing I always liked about Baptist churches was the more democratic style of running things. So this disturbing.
(Of course, I switched to a church that I think is elder led (?) but I am new to this denomination so I haven’t got everything figured out yet.)
@ Bookbolter:
Welcome to my world. I am just surprised he left your church.
Lydia wrote:
i.e. the Inner Party Members.
@ Bookbolter:
Ingrained narcissism. They literally learn how important they are in seminary. Mohler tells them they are God’s appointed agents to teach the ignorant. I am not kidding.
Lydia wrote:
Islam also “defends sexual complementary” to the death — of the woman, under the hail of stones.
Why don’t these guys go all the way and recite the Shahada? Then they could have FOUR wives (plus more in divorce-and-remarriage rotation) and unlimited concubines! Like REAL Men/Studs!
Tim wrote:
Perfect!! Just perfect.
Lydia wrote:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, “Wizards”
“Go Forth and Kill.”
— John Boorman, “Zardoz”
okrapod wrote:
They can’t and they don’t. Which is why these movements are made up of 20-30 somethings who don’t do hospital but preaching only.
I have had personal experience with some of the young who have been in horrible crisis who realize the terrible empty shallowness of it all. It is a hard lesson.
May you find your peace and comfort in His presence. And know there is someone from your childhood hometown praying for your family.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yeah, but that was before remote controlled drones were invented!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I was thinking of this earlier while reading about Belgium. They spout dogma/doctrine and seek to control others with arcane rules but are really cowards.
One side uses violence. The other uses cult of personality. Both sides are made up of cowards. Which is interesting since both sides see men as highest on the human food chain.
Lydia wrote:
That sounds like a really, really bad idea! No wonder church is a mess.
[Again. SERVANT. Not ‘servant leader’. All those men (and it is generally men) hear is the ‘leader’ part]
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
One other thing that drives me crazy in my refugee work are the 50 something “Uncles ” with 3-4 “nieces” they brought over who are anywhere from 16-25. When people talk about vetting….I just roll my eyes.
Lydia wrote:
Just like all the pimply-faced Progressives spouting Inevitable Marxist-Leninist Dialectic I encountered on college campuses during the mid Cold War period. (And I missed the big wave of them in The Sixties.)
Lydia wrote:
And THEMSELVES as Highest of All.
@ Lydia:
My appraisal: he only left because he’s lazy. He read all of his sermons rather than invest in learning sermon delivery. He refused to visit the hurting and sick. Rather than sermons on Sunday night and Wednesday night, we got to “work through” Sunday’s sermon and “walk through” a Psalm – anything he didn’t have to think too much about. So when the church didn’t immediately roll over, he took his marbles and went somewhere else rather than prayerfully examining his own practices and beliefs. It was easier. Just a little pushback and continuously declining attendance sent him scurrying.
@ Bookbolter:
Well, my former church hired his twin from SBTS. Cut and paste sermons. Lots of whining about how hard he works putting sermons together and how the sermon is the most important part of church.. Cancelling lots of kid/teen activities that he deemed “unprofitable” but in reality he did not control them and he does not want to actually work. He has been absent a lot on mission trips (alone and overseas)/conferences and takes a lot of vacations. Bringing in “friends” from seminary to volunteer then hiring them without a vote. Which is unheard of in that church so why are they going along? Why are people so easily duped?
I think he is still there because the pulpit committee was duped by the KBC and wants to save face. They spent a lot of credibility selling him to the church. It has become a very divided place with suppressed seething anger but people are afraid they will be called “mean and divisive” if they say anything. The playbook works. It is another form of political correctness.
mot wrote:
He knows what he’s talking about, he’s talking about silencing half the congregation, getting most of the other half on board with the promise of a willing, eager wife who won’t present a challenge (lots of men, for some reason, prefer wife puppets) so as to consolidate absolute control.
That concept translated “helper” or “help meet” is actually the word “ezer”, which is the same word used numerous times in the Bible to describe the Lord’s relationship to us, His people, it roughly means “strength”. The word “head” is better translated “source”. So, the man is the source of the woman (and that would fit with the narrative in chapter one of Genesis, but it does not necessarily mean head, as in boss or head of a corporation) and the woman is the strength of the man, functioning in something like the role of God towards man.
And that is exactly the way I see things worked out in every healthy marriage I’ve ever seen, men understanding that on a very real level, their wives see through them in a way that they will never see through the wife, that the wife is able to upbraid the husband for his immature folly in a way that the husband is seldom qualified to do, that the wife, in a way, is typically far stronger than the husband.
The reason people like Platt, Piper, Driscoll and the whole host of complementarians become so strikingly stupid is because they’ve stopped considering their wives their strength, the ones who see round them, who can tell them when they’re being stupid (such as Zipporah towards Moses).
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Who ironically loved dear Che…. who said the place for women in the revolution was on their back.
Law Prof wrote:
Basically, IMO, they are insecure and need to feel important. It is the same old caste system mentality codified with bad interpretation of scripture because they can’t appeal to divine right kings and a history of legal inequality.
Law Prof wrote:
Woe to the New Calvinist woman who speaks correction to their man! If it wasn’t for my godly wife, I would still be lost and undone. Matt Chandler calls the women members in his church “our girls” … complementarianism is a way to be condescending to half your church and still appear charming by giving the “girls” a little credit now and then.
@ Lydia:
Lydia, you know a lot about church women. Answer this for me. Most of the young reformed pastors in my area are ugly (I’m sorry, I just think they are) … but they all have attractive wives! What’s going on with that?!
Mae wrote:
Yes, they call them “replants” …. a nice way to refer to the weeping and gnashing of teeth that occurs during a split when the New Calvinists run off all the old non-Calvinist members. If you look at SBC’s North American Mission Board website, you will see that the New Calvinist leadership there (Kevin Ezell) has an aggressive plan to plant 1,000 new churches per year and has a $60 million annual church planting budget to accomplish that feat. At the same time, 1,000 “traditional” SBC churches are closing their doors or being “replanted.” It doesn’t take a statistician to see that the math here works to the advantage of the New Calvinist movement. As attrition (or takeover) occurs in SBC, the reformed folks gain a stronger foothold.
@ Max:
You have brought up the forbidden topic! :o)
Some of it has to do with the “how, when and where” they met. And the idea of marrying a “man of God”.
People really need to learn young to question that terminology.
@ Lydia:
I also think that movement attracted the more nerdy types who desperately wanted to be somebody.
@ Max:
And don’t forget that Mohler has been very outspoken about the young being selfish if they don’t marry young and have kids. (Even though his own daughter got to work for a senator after college and before marriage)
All these things bring about the conditions. These nerdy guys can look like serious responsible adults compared to other guys in high school and college when you are 19.
We have not had enough time to see the fallout yet. This particular movement had its big social media debut only about 8-10 years ago.
Lydia wrote:
That can’t handle (or are too lazy to do) the math, science, English comp, poly sci, ethics, phsycology, biology labs, geology, ……… most of the requirements for a college degree in a standard institution?
From what I have seen (which isn’t much, btw), it takes a lot more work to make it through a two-year community college than it does to get through a four-year seminary. Plus, the chances of being famous and powerful with a PhD, let alone a bachelor’s, from a college is far less than that of a seminary degree (more competition).
Max wrote:
Could be because the power players gravitate towards each other. In a male-dominated hierarchy, it is a woman’s appearance and charm that makes her a power player. The man’s will to power and control is what makes him a power player. He may or may not be physically attractive; often not. So perhaps it makes sense they end up together?
siteseer wrote:
In two words: TROPHY WIFE.
Or: Football Quarterback gets the Head Cheerleader. (And both run the Cool Kids’ Table.)
A Man of Power gets the Trophy Wife He Is Entitled To — the Supermodel, the Porn Star, The Perfect 10, even if he has to up her physical attractiveness with boob jobs & plastic surgery. HE’s ENTITLED TO THE ALPHA FEMALE! “SEE WHAT I’VE GOT THAT YOU CAN’T HAVE?”
siteseer wrote:
I recently had a theory about that as a side effect of Comp/Patrio, but it’d take too long to go into here. Maybe I’ll have time to post it this weekend.
Nancy2 wrote:
What a bunch of self-serving rot.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not defend sexual complementarity with our lives and our marriages through pictures of husbands as heads and wives as helpers, loving authority?’
Lydia wrote:
Every time I see or hear Womb Tomb Swanson, I think “High School Dork from Central Casting.” An Omega Male who found a way to be Alpha Male (by Divine Right) and gets to throw his weight around HARD. (“PAYBACK TIME!”)
And an Alpha Male gets the Alpha Female of the Herd as his Personal Trophy.
Max wrote:
And the Word of Calvin is spread.
“TODAY THE SBC — TOMORROW THE WORLD!”
siteseer wrote:
“Did we not keep our boots on our wives’ necks as YOU Commanded? Did we not damn the Heretics and Apostates and Fags and Feminists to YOUR Eternal Hell? Where’s our Brownie Points and our Throne at YOUR Right Hand? HUH? HUH? HUH?”
Nancy2 wrote:
But the Rapture was Supposed to Happen BEFORE drones were invented! It’s in SCRIPTURE(TM)! Israel is In The Land and That Generation that Sees These Fulfillments… 40 Years from 1948 is 1988 AT THE LATEST…
(You can tell I’ve had firsthand experience with The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Christians for Nuclear War…)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
What I find very ironic is those who took over the SBC are now themselves being taken over by the Calvinists. Wonder how they feel? Maybe like many of us that were forced out etc of the SBC or continue to be marginalized. They would never understand the irony!!
Lydia wrote:
These Pimply-faced Progressives were (obviously) all male.
Max wrote:
He ever refers to my wife, who put me through law school as her dependent while serving on the math faculty of a Pac 12 university, as “his girl”, he’ll be made to learn that she is most decidedly not anyone’s “girl”, except for the Lord God Himself and her earthly professor father.
Law Prof wrote:
To paraphrase a long-ago Excedrin commercial:
“ME MAN! ME WANT FILL-IN-THE-BLANK! YOU WOMAN! YOU SHUT UP!”
Max wrote:
E.g., the Driscolls. Have no clue, but it’s something I’ve noticed also. Some superficial women are attracted to power, and in their own junior high-esque way, young reformed pastors do exercise a bit of control.
mot wrote:
Like the Baby Boomers who are now getting into the Nursing-Home-and-Depends years:
“IT’S NOT FAIR! NOBODY WAS EVER SUPPOSED TO BE YOUNGER THAN US! IT’S! NOT! FAIR!”
My old DM: “HUG, you’re a Baby Boomer yourself; why are you so down on them?”
Me: “Yes, I’m in that cohort, lumped in with the biggest bunch of Perpetual Adolescents and Arrested Development cases to come down the chute in the past century. That doesn’t mean I have to like it.”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yep.
Bookbolter wrote:
In reading here of the experiences of others, I am struck by the similarities with what happened at our little Baptist church. The pastor in our case was more struck with the NAR guys, quoted from Rick Joyner and his ilk, and heavily pushed charismatic practice, but otherwise the playbook was exactly the same. The goal was to covertly take over and change this church. The church was left deeply divided and ravaged by the time he was asked to leave. And, as you said, Bookbolter, the congregation that was still left at the end did not seem to have one shred more discernment than they had had before.
The more I read, the more it seems like these groups are rather homogenous in a lot of ways. The role of the pastor, the authority structure, the drive for wealth, the speaking circuit, the indifference towards the spiritual welfare of the flock, the use of the world’s manipulative tactics to achieve what are supposedly God’s goals… I guess we live in a time where the theological lines are getting blurred as those who want to achieve position draw from “whatever works” or seems to work, regardless of the source?
Coming alongside
It reminds me of something I said to my goddaughter when she was enmeshed in her weird cult-like “charismatic covenant community”: “Those people talk funny.”
They’ll know we are Christians by our lingo?
BL wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Let’s not forget Jack Van Impe!
@ mot:
Well, there is a difference. The first takeover was public and used the voting process. Not saying political tactics were not involved, they were. I bet some of them wish they had been as clever as Mohler has been. He makes Patterson look like a boss Hog hack.
The second take over has been done by stealth and deception…no voting needed. By the time some figured it out, the entities were taken over, Mohler loyalists in place, partnerships with Driscoll/Acts 29,T$G and Mahaney were a done deal. Mohlers power totally complete.
Mohler positioned himself as a culture warrior early on complete with his Time mag blurb, radio minutes, talk show appearances, etc. That is all people saw and agreed with him.. having no clue about the stealth Calvinism. He promoted Calvinist leaders like Piper, Grudem, etc as seminary president. He got rid of employees early on who did not tow the party line. He had rubber stamp trustees. Grudems ST was all the rage there at one time.
Had Mohler stated his intention upfront, we would not be discussing it now.
siteseer wrote:
We used to watch Jack and Rexella in college for comic relief.
siteseer wrote:
Very good point!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
And his sidekick the diminutive, Doug Phillips
@ Nancy2:
I agree! You have to work in those careers!
siteseer wrote:
There are certainly those who pursue a “whatever works” ministry. I asked a YRR pastor at an SBC church plant near me “Why reformed theology?” His reply “Because they are the churches that are growing.” Fresh out of seminary, he wanted to go from scratch to mega as quickly as he could. And he pulled it off … from 25 folks meeting in a basement to a gathering of 20s-40s running over 500 within a year! His dimly-lit sanctuary in an old factory building, “relevant” messages littered with Piper Points, cool band, and free coffee/pastries was a big hit with the nearby college crowd … I say crowd, because they don’t resemble a congregation of the Lord. I guess in my old age, I’m not as culturally-relevant as I should be, but I still believe that Jesus is the eternal contemporary who doesn’t need gimmicks to draw folks to Himself.
Lydia wrote:
Actually, Dr. Al did state his intentions early on! His 1993 convocation address at Southern Seminary entitled “Don’t Just Do Something; Stand There!” was filled with warnings which the majority non-Calvinist SBC leadership (at the time) should have more effectively dealt with while the window was open. In his charge to rally his Southern troops around the Abstract of Principles (reformed confession), he made the following statements:
“The Abstract remains a powerful testimony to a Baptist theological heritage that is genuinely evangelical, Reformed, biblical, and orthodox.”
“We bear the collective responsibility to call this denomination back to itself and its doctrinal inheritance. This is a true reformation and revival … ”
It’s clear that Dr. Mohler has been on a mission, passionate about his cause, truly believes his theological confession, and is intent on altering the SBC landscape to nothing less than a reformed entity via the release of an army of young, restless and reformed seminary graduates into SBC churches.
His 1993 words may very well be prophetic:
“Those who teach the ministry bear the greatest burden of accountability to the churches and to the denomination … It is with a single man that error usually commences.”
Dr. Mohler is a mere man. Unfortunately, the time for the SBC majority to “don’t just stand there; do something!” has slipped away. Calvinization of the SBC is in full swing.
Max wrote:
Gotta a feelin’ that if Jesus still walked this earth in the flesh, He would turn over some pastry tables.
Lydia wrote:
OK. That’s it … Mama wanted them to marry a man of God. Well, as reported by TWW, these YRR preacher boys may never reach man of God status. In the meantime, their poor wives are what I call “coyotes”. When a coyote gets caught in a trap, he will chew his leg off to get free. I suspect many of these YRR pastor wives are ready to chew their arm off by now!
Law Prof wrote:
IMO just a whole lot of women are attracted to power and to powerful men, not just superficial women. It would be easy for a pretty woman to out maneuver less attractive women in order to ‘get a preacher.’ Preacher’s wife is a status position. And what if he is rather homely and none too bright, well that does not take away from status for her, and it may even be an advantage since she may make think that he is lucky to get her and think that this gives her some personal power in the relationship itself.
One can see the evolutionary impact of this in terms of long term food and safety for herself and her children.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Actually, there may be some truth to those words. The SBC is only one denomination “enjoying” the reformed movement within its ranks. TWW has reported on New Calvinist activity within Evangelical Free and Assembly of God groups, just to mention a couple.
Nancy2 wrote:
Thanks Nancy2! I have been grieving about the New Calvinist flood overtaking Western Christianity … and your comment made me laugh! I think I will print it and stick it on the refrigerator!
okrapod wrote:
Seen it in action several times, even in my limited, rural world. The homely preacher always makes some comment before the congregation about how God has blessed him with a “beautiful, supportive wife” etc ……. and all eyes look at the wife, and she bats her eyelashes, flips her hair, and smiles.
okrapod wrote:
Most of these young preacher boys have to preach … they sure couldn’t swing a hammer if their lives depended on it! On the other hand, Driscoll would make a great marketing executive if he needed to look for another line of business.
@ Max:
Few knew what that meant in practice except perhaps those who would be on the SBTS chopping block soon. And had there been a social media –that speech would have been parsed to death by both sides! And he would have been watched closer.
Also, Not many questioned his insistence, at that last hour, to add an “s” to priesthood of believer in the BFM2000 and how that would be used later. And even fewer understood how “church discipline” could ever be a bad thing when it was originally presented as a resolution to clean up numbers from church rolls.
There are thousands of such red flags that were ignored.
@ Lydia:
Lydia, you are right about the two takeovers. Thanks for pointing this out.
Max wrote:
I have a theory that the ministry bubble world actually arrests emotional development in people these days.
Often the women end up stuck. And by the time they have any realization, they have too much to lose in reputation and financial security. They have no real world support system.
@ mot:
I am like a dog with a bone when it comes to the entire mess! :o)
Lydia wrote:
Yes it would seem so. Before I cry too much about that, however, let it be noted that some of them got exactly what they wanted in the way of reputation and financial security. The fact that they end up stuck is not a lot different from the rest of us who also end up stuck with the results of prior decisions.
okrapod wrote:
But, their decisions make them the blue ribbon poodles in the dog and pony shows.
Max wrote:
Funny thing is, many of those replants result in a total church destruction due to the abusive nature of those engineering the replant, so the reality is that in many cases, these people who claim to have planted x number of churches, have in fact destroyed more fellowships than they’re created. I was an elder in a church that experienced a neocalvinist takeover, with the right hand man coming in from afar to enforce the takeover pastor’s absolute control. The church, which while imperfect had some things going for it, lasted about four years after the replant before collapsing completely.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yes.
BTW, I ran across this “lorialexander” BlogSpot site on one of the old threads…it sounds like a cult. All this emphasis on the submissive, homemaking is creeping me out. I don’t know anyone who lives like this, even stay at home mom’s! I’m so glad I’m not in that culture.
@ Lydia:Stealth and deception are the tools most often used by these neocals. Not just in SB circles either.
Nancy2 wrote:
Good Lord! I thought this was just a weird phenomenon in my neck of the woods … it’s worldwide!!
Nancy2 wrote:
Another refrigerator quote … albeit a sad state of affairs for many preacher wives.
How about, “He’s into the Word.”??
Nancy2 wrote:
Alpha Male parading his Trophy Mate before all the Betas-to-Omegas:
“SEE WHAT I GOT THAT YOU CAN’T HAVE? SEE? SEE? SEE?”
Florence in KY wrote:
Whose Word?
Calvin’s?
Law Prof wrote:
Just like MBAs getting rich from Golden Parachute after Golden Parachute after Golden Parachute, leaving behind a trail of bankrupt companies and unemployment lines.
okrapod wrote:
“Stuck” as Queen Bee in the Furtick Mansion.
Lydia wrote:
Salami Tactics, just like how Comrade Stalin swallowed up Eastern Europe after WW2.
“Just one more little slice” at a time until one day the Russian Bear has eaten it all and started on you. “URRA STALINO!”
Max wrote:
“Because That’s Where The BIG Money Is.”
I think there’s something wrong with the whole church culture. The former executive pastor at my last church left due to an “inappropriate relationship” & now is president of an evangelical college. The church is heavily promoting young earth creationism. This is not a neo-cal church. Looked at echurch on Sunday & the pastor joked about “submissive wives”. It was explained in the comments but still…the authoritarianism is deeply ingrained. The fact that Driscoll can even get this far speaks volumes. If anyone looks at my past comments, anything I can add to the conversation has already been said. Peace out.
Max wrote:
I can top that. The last time I was at our church to listen to a visiting preacher, his wife did a little sign language interpretation with a song. She stood up in front of the congregation, and before she started, she paused and said, “Oh, excuse me. I was looking to my husband for directions. I look to him for direction in everything.”
Took all I had not to say, “How awesome! I wish my dogs and my daughter’s horse were that well trained!”
Law Prof wrote:
Law Prof wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Not only that, but often it’s only preachers wives who are allowed to have any kind of leadership role in these churches. By virtue of who their husband is, they get to give speeches or make dumb videos about their home life, or get mentioned constantly in sermons (sidenote: one of the things that put me off church for years was all the cutesy ‘let me tell you about this cute thing my kids/wife/dog/whatever’ did. I don’t need everything personalized!). So ‘pastor’s wife’ is the only leadership role allowed. How sad.
Bookbolter wrote:
This. This is why people like Driscoll get endless get out of responsibility free cards. The “conservative” branch of evangelicalism has brainwashed people into believing that “correct doctrine” is what matters. Funny, I seem to remember Jesus lambasting the religious leaders of his day for just this approach. Not that Jesus necessarily hs anything to do with American Churchianity.
@ Max:
Does anyone remember their “smokin’ hot wives,” phase?
I used to say that if Grace Driscoll was ever in a disfiguring accident, Marks public words would make it even more devastating. Does anyone remember how he used blamed wives of husbands who had affairs….because their wife let themselves go.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Too true…..*I’m so darn lucky to have a, “smokin’ hot wife”, you poor saps, drool.*
Nancy2 wrote:
Stuff Christian Culture Likes retweets pastors tweeting about their “hot wife”.
She also shares tweets from all the praise band leaders whose worship was “rocking” on Sunday.
Nancy2 wrote:
I would pay money to see that happen.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I was so shocked when I realized, I was older than the president!!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Welcome to the ” New World” of the SBC….a denomination dying, and most pew sitters don’t realize it is coming…fast and furiously.
Jack wrote:
Evidently his comments were supposed to be a joke, but I wouldn’t have thought it was funny, so unfortunately, I didn’t attend e-Church last Sunday after reading the first comment.
I think sometimes uncomfortable “truths” are presented in what in a more they think is a more palatable format and thus more acceptable. Clever….
K.D. wrote:
There is a time to be born and a time to die. To which I might add that there also is a time to pull the plug. RIP SBC.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ya’ gotta’ love ol’ Hal. He’s still in the prophecy bizz, still pluggin’ away on Daystar now with The Hal Lindsey Report.
K.D. wrote:
Where I’m originally from (Southeast corner of Wisconsin) there’s a large Jewish population. One Jew told me many years ago that those who push Kashrut with the most zeal are usually the ones who get a trusted Goy friend to score some fine Prosciutto (or whatever) for them on the sly.
Muff Potter wrote:
That anything like why you always invite TWO Baptists on a fishing trip so neither will mooch your beer?
Muff Potter wrote:
Considering he originally showed NO signs of recovery from when he got blindsided by the Second Russian Revolution, that’s saying something.
So who’s taking the place of the USSR these days for Gog & Magog?
(“It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied!”)
Victorious wrote:
Isn’t one of the fallback positions for a bully getting caught passing the whole abuse off as a joke?
“WHAT’S THE MATTER? CAN’T *YOU* TAKE A JOKE?”
Thus shifting ALL blame to the victim.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
Jack wrote:
“Inappropriate relationship” meaning caught in bed with Live Boy or Dead Woman?
(Couldn’t have been a Live Boy — that would be HOMOSEXUAL(TM)!)
Nancy2 wrote:
And this says *absolutely nothing* to me as a single, never married, childless, middle-aged woman. I wish I could have five minutes to tell David Platt how his “gospel” means so little to those of us haven’t grabbed on to the holy golden ring of marriage.
BL wrote:
Oh probably not. I’m sure that in their world, there is nobody born with ambiguous genitals or with a chromosome set that doesn’t match their external body makeup (and both of these things happen with regularity and are not unusual).
Nancy2 wrote:
I assume the Gila River is a lot like the Mojave River.
(If Left Behind could put cruise ships on the Jordan River, canoeing up the Gila shouldn’t be that big a problem…)
Lea wrote:
I wonder if they do it because of the special tax exemption that religious workers get courtesy of the US Tax Code? That is, they don’t pay income tax on monies paid to them for their housing. So Pastor Y can get a $5,000/month housing allowance, and he doesn’t pay taxes on it. Doesn’t seem fair to *me*.
Max wrote:
Anyone remember Revelation 22:18-19?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or the two Baptist who never recognize one another in the liquor store…
Lydia wrote:
We used to watch Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker for comic relief. Then MTV started…
Law Prof wrote:
i.e. She’s marrying into the Cool Kids’ Table at High School.
Lydia wrote:
Back when I first got cable in the mid-Eighties, Channel 30 in Garden Grove’s hookup was 24-hour Gene Scott. After burning out on MTV after the first week (ten Twisted Sister videos an hour does that to you), I used to keep it on that channel for background — and to see what that maniac with all the funny hats was going to do next. Gene Scott — now that was one genuine character!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Tee hee. Someone must have told that to the 3 Geman POWs who tried to escape an internment camp In Arizona by canoeing to Mexico!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Gene Scott….late night on Channel 39 in DFW in the 80s….” GET ON THE TELEPHONE !!!”
It was hypnotic….
@ K.D.:
I watched him, too, from time to time. I called ‘the number on the screen’ once — never was spoken to so rudely in my life.
@ okrapod:
The SBC is dead and God will hold those responsible who killed it.
K.D. wrote:
Will never forget Gene. We used to watch him and exchange stories about the crazy things he said and did. Sometimes he’d do nothing but smoke a cigar and stare into the screen and not say two words for minutes on end. I remember him saying “The only reason God let the Book of James stay in the Bible was to prove you could be a jerk and still be a Christian.”
okrapod wrote:
Interesting that a man chooses a wife based on physical appearance rather than charm or wit yet the woman gets labeled superficial.
Bill M wrote:
Women who marry men for their power or money are superficial. Men who marry women for looks are superficial.
Law Prof wrote:
Luckily I have neither power, wealth, or good looks, one of the blessings from my creator.
Law Prof wrote:
Nice guys finish last. Good girls go to heaven and bad girls go everywhere.
Lydia wrote:
The strange thing is that I’ve grown old but they still look the same! lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-z1Cp3TciA
Bill M wrote:
I was a hottie…30 years ago.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’m not sure that this is an American Christianity problem only… After visiting several churches of varying theological flavour in my city in the UK, I concluded that the general view at my Conservative Evangelical CoE church saw ‘good behaviour’ as something that flows out of ‘good doctrine’… Basically, if you fix the doctrine, then that will fix the rest. It may have been difficult to agree doctrinally with everything that many of the other churches were teaching, but I have to say that often they felt more grounded in the ‘here and now’, while we were too ‘lofty and heavenly-minded’.
Admittedly, I think that this particular stream of Christianity in the UK is pretty strongly influenced by the US Neo-Cal movement, especially at the leadership level… Look at lists of recommended books or conferences and you will see most of the familiar names. At the congregation level the situation is somewhat different, and views on the usual topics are more varied.
@ siteseer:
Oh my word! Lol!
siteseer wrote:
Ever heard of “The Picture of Dorian Grey”?
That or Michael Jackson — amazing what an unlimited budget for cosmetic surgery can do.
Law Prof wrote:
I can’t remember where I saw it, but about a year ago, I read an article with information from a study that said that the more a society is egalitarian in regards to gender, the more things even out.
That is, only in a sexist or patriarchal society are you going to find this dynamic where women marry men for their money and the men marry the women for their looks.
If women are treated equally in relationships and in employment, women will marry for love and vice versa. It takes the gold-digger aspect out of marriage, and the men will marry women for love and won’t place as much emphasis on beauty.
Law Prof wrote:
This might be the page I was thinking of:
The Myth of Wealthy Men and Beautiful Women
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/the-myth-of-buying-beauty/374414/
-Or maybe that isn’t the page. I just remember reading somewhere that in cultures where things aren’t sexist against women, you won’t find as many cases of women marrying for money and men marrying for looks.
Good verse. “I thank God that I am not as they are.”
Nancy2 wrote:
Thank you!! I can only imagine what my grandparents would have thought of all this…..
__
“Can’t See The Stars Without A Little Darkness?”
hmmm…
Wartburg, you know the old saying, “If you give a man enough rope, he will hang himself…”
huh?
could b.
(sadface)
“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for what so ever a man sows, that shall he also reap.” -Galatians 6:7
What?
Skreeeeeeeetch !
Here comes da Son? It seems like years since Hes’s been here?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QrMiWVWXPxY
Watch 4 it.
Happy Easter!
ATB 🙂
Sopy
—
Honestly, if Driscoll wants to reinvent himself to stay relevant and attract Millennials to his church, he should offer liturgical services. Liturgy is all the rage among the 20 and 30 somethings these days. If you go to a Latin Mass, Orthodox Church, High-Church Anglican parish, etc., you’ll find LOTS of Gen X’ers and Millennials.
Before anyone asks, YES, there ARE liturgical Reformed services.
@ Paul:
Imagine that.
elastigirl wrote:
He was wanting donations so he could run his horse farm, and later date ” adult” stars….
Paul wrote:
Plugging into the solid Christian historical trace.
Plugging into something that predates the Baby Boomers, before whom Nothing Existed.
@ Paul:
We went Episcopalian high church today. The music was of excellent quality and sublime. I miss that! Tons of scripture “passage” readings with only a 10 min talk on resurrection and what it means. Once I got past the icons, incense and fancy vestments, I liked it a lot. It is much more Christ centered than the typical pastor centered service of Evangelicalism.
@ Lydia:
They also had open communion for those from other Christian denominations. More than one can say for Mark Dever’s church, Capitol Hill Baptst.
Paul, I could tell by the Bishop’s 10 min talk on resurrection he is definitely not Reformed!
elastigirl wrote:
Close friend of mine called the number once also, back in the 80s, same exact experience, he said he wanted some info on the ministry and they immediately shut him down, real brusque, basically, “If you don’t want to give us money, then bleep you!” Click. I can understand how a controversial ministry might want to limit crank calls and not put the people on the donation lines through that, wasting their time, but what my friend described was basically just unjustifiable unchristian behavior that was pretty much part and parcel of what Gene Scott was about. Just a jerk using religion to cash in.
Lydia wrote:
Same thing for me this morning. One of the references was Rev 3:20 “I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.” I suppose the reformed folks have an explanation for “opening the door”, but it is not a reference they typically bring up.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Why that’s true….
I went to church this morning.
SBC
East Texas version of SBC.
They had a cantata which reminded me of the church music of the 60s and 70s. Good stuff.
The minister couldn’t leave the good feeling we had after the music. He had to say a few words.
In which he went out of his way to say some imply some not so positive words about the present U.S. President. What that had to do with the death and resurrection of Christ, I do not know?
Now, it being Easter and many people visiting, It makes you wonder, how many people did it ” turn-off?”
( And don’t accuse me of being some sort of bleeding heart, I’ve voted Republican since ’76.)
__
“Our new 501(c)3 ‘church family’ (r) will be as ‘gullible’ ™ as the last one; hurray for us!’ -MickeyD
—
@ K.D.:
I hope you know that I am somewhat kidding but it appears to me that many SBC pastors believe they need to be political because to be SBC one must be Republican.
If I had been at this service what this pastor did would have turned me off. I want more Jesus and zero politics when I go to church.
__
“A Religious Storm Launched Upon The Un-Educated, And The Un- Suspecting?”
hmmm…
Mark Driscoll once again take up the mantle of the Great Commission and his new fangled spirit-powered continuation.
huh?
From a failed church anatomy to plagerized exegesis, from volgar apologetics to possible global theft of designated church giving.
What?
From being controversial at home in Seattle to employing his newly purchased resources in the 501(c)3 charsmatic cause, in a new state, in a leased fifty year old church building that is $adly in need of repair.
Finish the Mission with Pastor Mark aims to take fresh missionary cash from a new generation, in a new loction as he seeks to reach the unreached and engage the unengaged.
(where have we heard that before?)
Boy, what are these new MD church attendee folks in for?
Dunt Dunt, Dunt Dunt!
Wait 4 it!
—> Kind Folks , your gonna need a bigger bible!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QT9BeGNnCqw
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Anyone know how Mark Driscoll’s church “soft launch” went yesterday?
To chime in on the “where I went to church” discussion: Episcopal. Easter is the culmination of the three-service Triduum–Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Holy Saturday/Easter Vigil.
I love being a torch bearer and chalice bearer, and playing this small part in the liturgy, which means “the work of the people.”
Chicago Pastor Accused of Unholy Abuse Against Underage Girl
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/27/chicago-pastor-accused-of-unholy-abuse-against-underage-girl.html
Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
I wouldn’t say it was a “soft launch.” It was more like a “get to know you” session.
Here’s a good story from a local TV station. You can see me (female) with my signs, but thankfully they didn’t use any of my babble.
http://www.cbs5az.com/clip/12318228/protests-welcome-controversial-pastors-first-service-in-the-valley?autostart=true
I’d scoped the place out on Saturday and ascertained that the West parking lot could hold 150 cars. By the time I left at 5:15, all but about 15 spots were taken. But…40 of those spots were taken by people who arrived before 4:45, and I think those are the hard-core Driscollites. I did not check license plates, but I was told there were more than a few Washington plates in the lot.
Let’s see, what else? I should probably outline the things that make Driscoll’s new church plant like Scientology:
* Sending someone out to take my picture. 🙂 Seriously, but she was afraid to come up to talk to me or take the handy informational flyer (full of references, only a lawyer could love this) from me. I made a point of staying on the sidewalk.
* Calling the cops! Seriously, The Trinity Church called the cops. It must have been a dull Easter afternoon in Scottsdale because two cruisers and an SUV were dispatched, for four middle-aged people.
* Driscoll didn’t come out to talk to us, but that was no surprise. *shrug*
Now, where The Trinity Church was NOT like Scientology:
* One of the people there (a guy wearing a The Trinity Church lanyard) brought us bottled water. That was really, really nice, because there is freeway construction going on nearby and a lot of dust in the air. Seriously, thank you guy, I was about to choke. He also invited us in, but I declined, because, I’d already been to church.
* They had three bounce houses. I’ve never seen a bounce house at a Scientology function.
It looks like Driscoll has the money to make a go of it. People (volunteers? paid?) were wearing The Trinity Church lanyards. But honestly, maybe it was Easter and people preferred to watch an exciting basketball game on the boob tube, or enjoy a family dinner, but I don’t think the turnout was all that.
It did occur to me that Driscoll might have some followers who decided to pick up and move to Phoenix to help him with his church plant. Hopefully they’ll learn to like the Valley of the Sun for more than just as a place for failed ministers to restart their ministries.
Daisy wrote:
Again, RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
Including SEXUAL Privileges.
Sopwith wrote:
Grifters usually keep on the move.
Bill M wrote:
Because it contradicts the Word of Calvin.
mirele wrote:
I loved your report about the proceedings. Since you were on TV, may we humbly consider you our Brush with Fame? 😉
Friend wrote:
Mirele, thanks for the very interesting report, and thanks for taking one for the team!
Friend wrote:
Sure, that’s better than what another friend called me (tongue in cheek and he was comparing me to ex-Scientologist Leah Remini): “TROUBLEMAKER!”
@ mirele:
I’m just glad that you and other protestors raised enough of a stink to get some media people out there! I hope reporters dig a little deeper, and follow up!
@ mirele:
Went to the link.
Pastor Mark Dri$coll says that all the accusations against him are lies.
(rolls eyes. exactly who is lying?)
@ mirele:
btw, thanks for protesting, representing us here at TWW, and then providing the link.
Good work!
Lydia wrote:
My youngest sister recently moved to Tampa. They have been checking out churches in the area. Her husband had to work Easter weekend, so she accepted a friend’s invitation to attend Easter services at her church. It turned out to be a Reformed Presbyterian church, of the New Calvinist flavor. A young pastor with spiky hair cracking jokes instead of preaching the Gospel that saves. The cool band with non-Easter songs was deafening, but the coffee was good. She was amazed at the irreverence on Easter Sunday! She won’t be going back.
@ mirele:
Is there anyway we can use this as a short post? Would you like to write a post on it? I think you should get credit for your work!!!
Max wrote:
How on earth does this square with the inevitable grinding oppression of the Tithing Millions?
Why can’t church be church anymore?
@ mirele:
Also from the news link:
Mark Driscoll, “I’ll be a Bible teaching pastor, so I’ll open the Bible and teach and preach Jesus.”
Yeah right. Whatever.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
But so far~
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/02/driscoll-uses-bible-as-sock-puppet.html
@ dee:
Thumbs up to this.
Max wrote:
While this was going on, I was at Easter Vigil Mass at St Boniface. Took over three hours because we had several dozen each of baptisms and confirmations between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It’s customary to baptize adult converts en masse at Easter Vigil, but I have never seen so many at a time.
P.S. Our pastor is a middle-aged Mexican without spiky hair. A “second vocation” priest who’s thoroughly blue-collar — a former construction worker who once said when he entered seminary he knew only two dozen words of English, all cusswords.
dee wrote:
Sure, go right ahead! I’ll drop a picture of the flyer in an email to you. Like I said, only a lawyer could love it. 🙂
Friend wrote:
Because the youth group is running it now!