Dedicated to my heroes: Shauna and *Billy*
“Violators cannot live with the truth: survivors cannot live without it. There are those who still, once again, are poised to invalidate and deny us. If we don't assert our truth, it may again be relegated to fantasy. But the truth won't go away. It will keep surfacing until it is recognized. Truth will outlast any campaigns mounted against it, no matter how mighty, clever, or long. It is invincible. It's only a matter of which generation is willing to face it and, in so doing, protect future generations from ritual abuse.” ― Chrystine Oksana, Safe Passage to Healing: A Guide for Survivors of Ritual Abuse link
Some background:
I have known about this story since last fall. Shauna's plight has been communicated to SNAP. Also, I personally called Lakeside Bible Church yesterday and asked to speak Ken Ramey. I explained to the woman who answered the phone that I would be posting this story today. I have not heard back from anyone at the church. The names of the two teen boys are the only ones that have been changed. Billy is the victim. Joe is the rapist.
Lakeside Bible Church and psychology
Lakeside Bible Church is located in Montgomery Texas. The senior pastor is Dr Ken Ramey who is a graduate of The Masters Seminary. This church believes that the Bible trumps any sort of psychological theory.
Throughout our lives, everyone of us faces various physical, emotional, relational, financial, and spiritual problems. We believe the principles in the Bible are far superior to psychological theories and therapies for dealing with these problems. Our trained counselors provide help and hope by showing people how to apply the principles of God's Word to the problems in their lives.
What ministries does this church admire?
The church links to the following ministries (partial list):
- 9Marks
- Desiring God
- Sovereign Grace Music
- CCEF (restoring Christ to counseling)
- Challies.com (Tim Challies)
- ACBC (pursuing excellence in biblical counseling)
The church recommends the following books and authors (amongst others):
- CJ Mahaney
- Dave Harvey
- John MacArthur
- Nine Marks of a Healthy Church by Mark Dever
- John Piper
- Joshua Harris
- Competent to Counsel by Jay Adams
A church split over church discipline?
Here is a comment that alludes to a church split from the John MacArthur Forum.
First allow me to elaborate on why you are seeing this post. Ken Ramey is the pastor of Lakeside Bible Church in Montgomery ,Texas. Our family left this church, well we ran for the hills.
Below you will find a sermon in which Ken has attempted to remove off the Internet and wipe away that he ever was a key speaker or even attended this conference, Grace Fellowship in Pretoria Africa May 23, 2015. Ken Ramey has his sermons posted on every sight where he can post his sermons including places he has been a speaker. So, why would he remove them? I know why!
Ken spoke on two different issues which he makes sure they go hand in hand. Defusing Disunity (How Ken caused a church split ) and Search and Rescue exercising church discipline! Ken goes into great detail in how he caused a church split at the very first church he pastored away from GCC (JOHN MACARTHUR ) which was Walden Community Church in Montgomery Texas.
Ken makes it a point to point out that John MacArthur is his mentor. He even says in this sermon that he consulted john macarthur right before he split Walden Community Church. He was invited in to be senior pastor by a congregational rule church in which after 2 weeks of arriving he immediately tried to make it elder/pastor rule.
The members there caught on quick and threatened him and the elders with a lawsuit. Ken called these members including the former pastor divisive, gossips, unbelievers, angry bitter people who can keep their church pews.(sic) He clearly throws them under the bus and then says he didn't.
Ken is all about church discipline and exercising it! I guess of course as long as it doesn't include him or his leadership. Ken was invited into a church where they were congregational rule and in the first two weeks ken tried to Shanghai the church and the building. People, he gets into the story of how he did it you really must listen to this,sermon!!!
Dead, bloody animal games
There is another issue that involves the use of dead animals and lots of real blood in youth ministry games but we'll save that for another time. Bet that one will get you googling! This is not a joke-promise.
What could the above information imply?
It appears that Ken Ramey and Lakeside Bible Church are Neo Calvinistic in their leanings. They stress male only leadership, biblical™ counseling techniques, and church discipline. Their interest in the books of CJ Mahaney raise concerns regarding how one might handle reports of child sex abuse.
Knowing this background, let's move on.
Shauna's story
Shauna is a single, divorced mother of Billy. She supports the two of them by cleaning houses and helping out with the care of horses, house sitting, etc.. Their financial situation is difficult, but Shauna is able to control her schedule to be home for Billy. In 2013, the year that this story begins, Billy was 13 years old but was developmentally 9 years old. He also suffers from dyslexia and participates in a special needs program at school. He is a delightful young man to speak to on the phone, which I did. Shauna was a member of Lakeside Bible Church, and a number of her clients came from that church.
She was house sitting when her life changed. Another boy, Joe, who was 15 and whose family are members of Lakeside stopped by to hang out with Billy. They went into a room to play video games. Shauna decided to check on them and walked in on Billy being sodomized by Joe. She called an Elder (with a capital E) for help. He advised her to call the police which she did. Ken Ramey arrived around the same time the police did. He tried to talk with Billy at several points but was not allowed to because the police were concerned that he had talked with Joe and did not want his thoughts to influence Billy's report.
During the investigation, it was discovered that pornography had been viewed on the TV and that some sort of instrument had been used by Joe to threaten Billy with bodily harm if he said anything.
Billy was brought to the hospital. There it was ascertained that he had been sexually molested due to the obvious tearing, bruising etc. This was a difficult night for Billy. He was distraught and needed help in lying still for the rape examination. He was also put on medications to prevent the possibility of disease being transmitted by the rape. These meds made Billy sick for the weeks they had to be administered. Also, Billy understandably developed a great deal of fear and experienced nightmares for a long time. His mother made sure that he received good counseling from professionals as opposed to the "competent to counsel" fans at Lakeside.
When Billy and Shauna returned to Lakeside for the first time since the rape, they both saw Joe coming out of the Youth Area. This is significant as you will see momentarily. Then, Joe came into the church with his parents, walking right past Billy. At one point, he turned and gazed threateningly in Billy's direction. This caused Billy no small amount of fear, and he insisted in being taken out of church.
Shauna requested that Joe be prevented from attending the same church service as Billy, but this request was allegedly denied. Apparently, Joe was being counseled by the church, and they allegedly had no concerns about any further rapes. It is alleged that the church membership was not notified of the potential danger of Joe's behavior.
Joe eventually pled guilty to aggravated sexual assault. He received probation and was told to get counseling. Allegedly Shauna was encouraged by the church not to attend the sentencing by Ken Ramey. She did not know that during the hearing she could have requested restitution from the rapist's family for medications, counseling etc.
Allegedly, Shauna began to hear from church members that this incident was merely consensual behavior between two boys and that it was a sin. She was also told that members had heard that her son was a homosexual.
Shauna felt she could no longer attend the church. Shortly thereafter, she started losing customers who were members of her former church. She lost so much business that she is still having trouble making ends meet.
Shauna had had enough. She decided to write the former church members a letter explaining what had happened.
The Letter to the Church from Shauna
Dear Lakeside Bible Church Community,
I am writing to you concerning a matter of a very serious nature and one that I feel is absolutely necessary to address for the sake of my son.
Over the course of the last few months, several members of LBC have crossed my path and have brought to my attention false rumors that are widely circulating as to why my son and I left the church. It is now necessary for me to respond to these rumors because they are slanderous to my son and continue to perpetuate the abuse that he has already endured. I made the decision for my family to leave LBC in October 2013, 2013 because I believe that Lakeside Bible Church was no longer a safe environment for my son, due to the sexual abuse he endured, the church's harboring of a sexual offender at the time, and the church staff's egregious handling of our family in the process.
The facts are that my son was forcibly raped through intimidation and threats upon his life. Facts that are documented and confirmed from multiple sources. First, from the medical records documenting the night of my son's assault and his distress, his medical examination, and confirmed physical evidence of forced rape and trauma. Second, from the District Attorney in Conroe, who dealt personally and extensively with the charges against my son's perpetrator, including the perpetrator's confession to the crime. It is also well documented that the perpetrator entered a sex offender program and received counseling through the criminal justice system for his crime. Third, from my son's professional counselor, who is trained and highly experienced in recognizing and dealing with sexual abuse, rape, and trauma in children and has worked with my son and his recovery over the past two years.
Due to the extremely uninformed and grievous "counseling" practices and the agendas we both experienced at LBC while under duress, I cannot emphasize enough to the community and staff of Lakeside Bible Church to consider very carefully and seriously the value of getting properly, professionally informed about the truth of sexual abuse and trauma against children; get educated on how to best offer support and protection to victims and their families who have endured it; and to consider referring victims and families to counselors who are profoundly experienced and knowledgeable regarding such.
I firmly believe an immeasurable apology is due to my son by his perpetrator, the perpetrator's family, the Lakeside Bible Church pastor and elders, and from any individual within the Lakeside Bible Church community who has perpetuated slander and further grief against my son.
Please feel free to contact me if you have experienced any type of sexual abuse, physical abuse, or mental abuse by anyone. I have a vast knowledge of wonderful resources available as a result of my son's assault which has brought some healing for both of us. It is still a very deep struggle to work through even now however I don't know how we would be coping without the expertise of those who understand abuse, who have provided so much compassion and care to my child. It would be an injustice to keep this to ourselves and not share with those in the church who may be suffering in silence. I can no longer be silenced nor will my son be made out to be the perpetrator in his own abuse and a homosexual when he clearly was raped! In our own personal experience his assault has been swept under the rug and lies have told about my child by this leadership!
If you have any questions regarding the validity of my son's abuse I will be more than happy to answer those questions and will provide what is necessary to vindicate my child if anyone has lead you to believe this was anything but a Rape! Please do not ask me for the name of his perpetrator as I am not able to divulge that information.
Thank You,
Shauna R. Marquis
You may ask why I believe Shauna's version of the events. Besides the conviction of Joe (and he pled guilty) Ken Ramey wrote the following letter to his congregation. This letter nailed it for me. Does it for you?
Ken Ramey's letter to Lakeside Bible Church
Here is the letter that Ken Ramey sent to LBC about Shauna's letter. There is so much wrong with it that I am having difficulty keeping this post from becoming a book. The actual letter (screenshot) appears at the end of this post.
Beloved,
I am writing in response to a disturbing email you recently received from a former member of Lakeside publicizing that her son was raped by another member of our church and accusing our Pastoral Staff and Elders of mishandling of her and her son and endangering them and the other members of our church by harboring a sexual offender in our church. Sadly, what should have remained a private matter between the individuals involved in a very serious, sinful act that occurred back in 2013 has now become that must be addressed, albeit discreetly.
First of all, I cannot even begin to imagine the unspeakable grief and pain of a mother's heart whose son was sinned against sexually by another teenage boy who was attending at the time of the incident. The incident did not take place on our church campus or during a church activity. However, immediately after the incident occurred, the mother contacted one of our Elders and he counseled her to call the police and I arrived minutes later and attempted to work alongside the authorities in ministering to both families involved in the incident. In the days and weeks that followed, we sought to lovingly and patiently counsel both boys and their families and pursue biblical reconciliation within the limitations and restrictions place on us by the country court system. We were in regular contact with the District Attorney's office as the case progressed to ensure compliance with the orders from the court and to avoid hindering the investigation and eventual prosecution. The "perpetrator" confessed his faith and even made a confession of faith in Christ as a result of the conviction he was under regarding what he had done. Furthermore, from the time the incident occurred based, on a court order, this young man was never allowed out of his parents' sight whenever he was at church and he never returned to our Student Ministry and subsequently has moved out of state as a result of an unrelated situation in his family.
That being said, we have never knowingly "harbored a sexual offender in our church," but like every church we minister to an unknown number of people who have committed sexual sin including fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc., along with a whole bunch of other sinful folks who by the grace of God have repented of their sin and have been washed clean through the shed blood of Christ on their behalf and are in the process of being sanctified or set apart from their former life of sin (cf. 1 Cor 6:9-11).
Finally, I think it is important for us to remember that the Bible that if we are aware that someone has committed a sin, we are to personally and privately confront that person for the purpose of leading them to repentance and restoring them to a right relationship with God and anyone else their sin has affected. (cf. Gal 6:1, Matt 18:12-16). The only time a person's sins should be made public is when they refuse to repent of it or are unwilling to be reconciled to others who have sinned against them (cf. Matt 18:17, 1 Tim 5:19-22). Unrepentant sin should never be swept under the rug but always confronted and exposed (cf 1 Cor 5:1-13). However, if sin is confessed and repented of then we are to cover it of love for Christ and our fellow sinner (cf. 1 Peter 1:8, James 5:19-20, Gen 9:20-23). God Himself said, "He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who professes and forsakes them will find compassion" (Proverbs 28:13). We should deal with one another sins accordingly.
If you have any questions or concerns about this situation, please feel free to contact me or any of the other LBC Elders. As those who God has entrusted with the sacred responsibility to protect and care for His sheep (cf. Acts 20:28) and who will have to give an account to Him someday for how we have watched over your souls (cf. Hebrews 13:17), we covet your continued prayers as we strive to wisely and graciously apply the truth of His Word as we deal with sin in our own lives and in the lives of those who attend LBC.
Grace and truth,
Ken Ramey
Some of the problems with this letter by Ken Ramey.
Please feel free to keep the list going. I shall start numbering them and you all can continue.
- The word "perpetrator" is put in parenthesis. Shauna told me that Ramey said he believed that this was an act between two consenting teens. It seems that he does not believe that the convicted rapist was a perpetrator.
- He says that the church was unfairly accused of mishandling the situation and putting the church in danger. Shauna said that he didn't tell the church about what happened and allowed the rapist to continue coming to church. Note how often he says that this was a "private matter" and should not have been made a public matter.
- He does not mention the pain of the victim, Shauna's son.
- He does not call it a crime. Instead, he refers to it as a sin.
- He allowed Joe to attend the church even though Billy was fearful of him. This shows a priority of caring for the rapist over the victim of the rapist.
- He does not discuss Billy's developmental delays which makes him even more of a victim.
- He does not discuss the threats that were made by the rapist to Billy about not telling anyone else what he did to Billy or he would hurt him.
- He allowed the rapist's parents to watch over him. This is naive since it is possible that his parents could have been concealing Joe's behavior in the past. There should have been an Elder (always capitalized, btw) that accompanied Joe whenever he stepped a foot on the campus of the church.
-
Do you note how they *lovingly and patiently* sought to counsel both boys and seek reconciliation. Does this remind you of the time at SGM when they made a 3 year old child *forgive* her abuser? Perhaps Ramey is taking cues from SGM? Warning: it is highly inadvisable to pursue reconciliation in the short run when it involves child sex abuse. As Boz Tchvidjian of GRACE has said:
"The long-term harm suffered by victims who are manipulated into “reconciliation” is often more damaging than the underlying abuse." - It is stated that LBC has an unknown number of pedophiles who are repenting. This statement made absolutely no sense. If pedophiles are present, they are of danger to the children in that church.
- So, the young rapist has made a *confession of faith in Christ* as a result of this. Hmmm, who remembers The Village Church and the pedophile incident? Anyone who believes that someone simply has to confess faith in Christ to be cured from some sort of predatory, rape activity is totally naive. This is what got The Village Church into trouble, forcing Matt Chandler to apologize. It sure sounds like Ramey is headed for the need to apologize as well.
- If a pedophile confesses and repents of sex abuse, Ramey says we should conceal it out of love. NOOOOOOOO. A young man who rapes and threatens another teen has deep seated problems and his problems should become common knowledge so that the members of the church can protect their own children. It seem like Ramey is not too concerned about repeated rape if the person has *confessed Christ.*
Finally, I am absolutely in shock that people at LBC have punished Shauna and her son by dropping her means of supporting herself and her son through housecleaning. If anyone needs to repent, it is Ramey, the Elders (big E) and the church members who didn't show an ounce of compassion to a woman and her son who was raped by the son of a better positioned family in the church. I had a chance to talk with Billy. He is an amazing young man who wants this story told. His mother and he are the heroes of this story. It is way too easy to name the bad guys.
LBC needs to consult GRACE and Boz Tchividjian to see how Christians should actually care for the abused. For now, I would say that your church is not a safe place when people are struggling with the aftermath of child sex abuse.
Shauna: we love you and your wonderful son! What happened to him was a crime. May God give you strength.
1st??
Shauna and “Billy”: You are my heroes.
That’s the first thing that struck me. He’s minimizing a crime.
Not surprised the church are Mahaney fans. They’ve absorbed it well.
I am in shock that Ken Ramey actually put perpetrator in quotes! Even AFTER the 15 yr. old rapist had confessed and a conviction had occurred in the judicial system. What does that say about Ramey’s perspective on the legal system? Very disturbing.
Good for Shauna and Billy for exposing another self-serving, self-centered “church.” This is disgusting. Churches like this had better wake up before they start getting sued into oblivion.
I honestly do not get pastors and elders who do this. Do they not have children themselves? Even if I were extremely financially and emotionally invested in the reputation of a church, it would never override the protective instincts I have for my children!
Neo-Cals seem to just LOVE pedophiles who claim to ‘repent’. Their victims…not so much. These so-called ‘ministers’ and their henchmen are some of the most despicable human beings on earth because they claim they are doing these evil acts ‘in the name of God’. It is they who are the evidence of a moral decline.
Praying for you and your son, Shauna. So sorry for how your son was victimized and then re-victimized. May you find strength in the days to come.
I found it interesting that in his letter, Ken Ramey named a number of other sexual perpetrators (fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles)but nowhere refers to the rapist in this situation. To me it is an obvious, intentional ploy to minimize the crime by refusing to call it a rape.
@ Pam Palmer:
We love you to pam
Unfortunately and beyond sadness it pains me to say the despicable way that people have been treated in Calvins club is beyond words. I can truthfully tell you that I witnessed the rule of the good ole boys and their heavyhanded dealings and lack of love with more than a few others including the old, sick and disabled. Their main rule is silence of the lambs. These heads of the sheep pen only love themselves. Any and I mean ANY issues or questions even needs are quickly disposed of and the poor lambs are left bleeding and alone. ALL issues are your sin AND gossip if you discuss with anyone! Heaven forbid if someone has a real need.. In order to recieve help you must turn over all your financial business to the club leaders who then decide if it is a good use of their precious funds… Jesus has been there when He was naked and they did not clothe Him! For this reason I will never be a member of anybody’s good ole boy club again. I will probably spend the rest of my life looking for those who truly just love Jesus and want to love others the way He loves us.
*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*
These people who minimize sexual abuse in the church, they make me sick. I can’t hardly add anything else to what Dee has said here.
Dee, thank you! You are my son's hero. He is so courageous to be willing to share his story here, and I'm so thankful for this platform. You ladies are a blessing and definitely used by God as sharp double edged swords. Billy is reading this post as I type this. We love, love, love you Dee…. thank you for loving my son enough to tell his story.
You Nailed it! Deb wrote:
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Good Little Party Members.
OP:
Did y’all mean in quotes or quotation marks? But anyway, yes, that was one thing that grabbed my eye that I was going to mention. Depending on why the guy put that word in quote marks – it can look like he’s conveying that the aggressor was not really guilty of anything.
All the talk about “covering people’s sins” sounds very Doug Wilsonian. Wilson also went on and on in some blog post or reproduced letter in regards to a child sex assault case he mishandled that his job as a pastor was to “cover for people’s sins.”
Regarding this line by the preacher of the church:
“Sadly, what should have remained a private matter between the individuals involved in a very serious,”
Considering the nature of child- on- child sexual assault, I’d say no, that such matters should not be kept private, between just the two boys and/or their families.
Maybe it’s just me, but word phrasing such as, “whose son was sinned against sexually by another teenage boy”
– seems to diminish what occurred. Yes, on one level, what happened was a sin, but it was also a crime, and it was non-consensual.
Re: “The incident did not take place on our church campus or during a church activity. ”
Was that line meant to be a CYA moment?
Ramey said, “Finally, I think it is important for us to remember that the Bible that if we are aware that someone has committed a sin, we are to personally and privately confront that person for the purpose of leading them to repentance and restoring them to a right relationship with God and anyone else their sin has affected. (cf. Gal 6:1, Matt 18:12-16). The only time a person’s sins should be made public is when they refuse to repent of it or are unwilling to be reconciled to others who have sinned against them (cf. Matt 18:17, 1 Tim 5:19-22). Unrepentant sin should never be swept under the rug but always confronted and exposed (cf 1 Cor 5:1-13). However, if sin is confessed and repented of then we are to cover it of love for Christ and our fellow sinner ”
Murder is a sin. Does he think the same privacy should be graciously given to murderers? Can these people not distinguish between a petty sin and a horrendous crime?
(part 2)
Re: “the Bible [says] that if we are aware that someone has committed a sin, we are to personally and privately confront that person for the purpose of leading them to repentance”
I would not want to biblically, or non-biblically, reconcile with any rapist of mine (if I had been assaulted). So no on that.
(And I’m an adult. I couldn’t imagine forcing a teen ager to confront his attacker.)
This:
Oh. He confessed his faith in Christ afterwards. That just magically makes everything A-OK, and he’s trustworthy now.
How naive or bespotted with their particular take on doctrine are these people that they are this obtuse?
Re: “That being said, we have never knowingly “harbored a sexual offender in our church,”
And then:
“but like every church we minister to an unknown number of people who have committed sexual sin including fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc., along with a whole bunch of other sinful folks who by the grace of God have”
There might be a fine line there where you could argue that the pedos they are counseling are non-offending (have not yet acted on their urges), but yes, it remains they are “harboring known sex offenders” in their church. Not just Joe, but some others.
I also dig how they sin level, what with lumping in adultery, fornication, etc, along with pedophilia.
Don’t you know they’re all equally as horrible? (Note, that was sarcasm on my part).
I spotted the things on the list too, where Dee analyzed the guy’s letter. I agree with everything else in the post.
I am so sorry for what happened to Billy and his Mom. I am also sorry that the people at the church have apparently blacklisted her, which makes it difficult for her to find work.
Re: all the talk earlier in the post about how this church thinks that biblical principles trump psychology, etc – no!
We were just discussing this very topic at Spiritual Sounding Board blog the last two days.
I didn’t get relief from my depression and anxiety until I stepped outside “biblical principles” and the usual Christian advice to pray, read the Bible, have faith, etc.
What strikes me is that the Bible has plenty to say about the severity of sexual crimes and legal justice required, particularly crimes against children. The problem is those who rest all final authority in their own interpretations the Bible to suit their own agendas: namely pressured reconciliation and forgiveness, silence, and privacy. It is the arrogance of interpretation that is the problem, that goes unaccounted for, that is left up to those who may have an agenda or public reputation to preserve. The Bible also has a great deal to say about caring for the widow and orphan, which didn’t happen here. If a perpetrator is excused by a verbal profession of faith and permitted to function with other children, this is incredibly dangerous and revealing about this church leadership. At the least, it is ignorant and arrogant. At the worst, it is a dismissive, secretive attitude towards criminal abuse of the vulnerable. It lends itself to the possibility of foreknowledge on their part: if *Joe* had issues or known incidents already. What other knowledge does this leadership keep “private” or dismiss upon a “profession of faith” or a dabble of their amateur counseling? I have incredible respect for the courage of Shauna and her son. Having worked with court-referred boys in a Christian counseling agency, I understand the nuclear devastation that unleashes on a sexually-traumatized child and their parents. I understand that boys like “Joe” are never a one-time incident. This church leadership’s spiritualized abuse echoes Matt 23, where the Pharisees “tie up heavy loads, too burdensome for their people to carry.” This was a matter that needed to be handled with utmost care and expertise. And certainly with a priority of creating a safe environment for *Billy* and other children. A pastor or elders without little expertise cannot “interpret” and decide what is appropriate; the Biblical thing to do is to seek out expertise and knowledgeable help for such a crime, as Shauna has so passionately encouraged at far too high a price to her and her son.
“They devour widow’s houses and for pretense make public lengthy prayers. These will receive the greater condemnation.” Mark 12:40
Yes!!!! Ken told me that he wouldn’t call it rape! I asked him what does he mean he won’t call it rape? He said it’s sexual assault but not rape! So I text him the definition according to Wikipedia the definition of sexual assault which says it’s RAPE! he still refused to call it rape. I realized then that he never saw my son as a victim. HE is very slick with words. Victorious wrote:
Just posted a Yelp review of Lakeside Bible Church based on this blog post. I would want to know about this situation if I was looking for a church.
Also, is there a fund or a way to contribute to help Shauna and her son at this time (ed.)?
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2008/oct/17/lawsuit-claims-abuse-by-pastor-in-1980s/
Found this. Near the end of the article, Ramey is listed as one of the defendants.
Thanks for sharing, Dee.
An FYI: In Texas, all adults are considered mandatory reporters.
It’s always the same story! Minimize. Deflect. It’s just a sin! Like we all do. No! That boy is a predator! I pray mercy and healing for Shauna and her sweet boy and hate that they were further victimized by their pastors and church friends…the body of Christ? It’s despicable.
My former church, a place I once passionately loved and served, touted their children’s ministries as a “safe and exciting environment” for kids to learn about Jesus….only later to find out, by accident, from a staff member, that none of their volunteers had been background checked! I felt like throwing up. I trusted these people…naively.
When I sent a lengthy email to the pastor asking questions, inquiring about volunteer training and protocols, and pleading with him to bring it before the church if it was a problem paying for the checks, he let me know how much he cared (eyeroll) and that it was the children’s pastor’s fault because he just refused to do his job. To please be patient while they continued to work toward getting it done. Um no! Dont wanna do the bare minimum to ensure my kid is safe? DONT HAVE CHILDRENS CHURCH UNTIL YOU DO!
no other parents there knew either. I told him that I wasn’t stupid and that a background check wouldn’t even catch most abusers, but it is a minimum, the very FIRST step of MANY that need to be considered and DONE if you want to protect children from folks who know churches are a great place to find trusting, unsuspecting folks.
God help us all when this is the Churches chosen stance, time and time again.
Thank you mercy mama. I think Dee nailed it when she suggested getting GRACE in there to train churches on how to deal with abuse when it occurs. Boz is an incredible advocate. @ Mercy’s Mama:
so the victim’s mother is losing customers?
if I had children and lived anywhere NEAR a church like this,
I would consider the church itself to be passively involved in hosting a predator whose behavior towards children included forcible sodomy
this church is itself a co-conspirator to something so evil it is hard to name, as of the time they knew of the rape and they took the side of the perpetrator and proceeded to cause problems for the victim’s mother . . .
evil? oh yeah . . . it won’t be the last time that the young perpetrator hurts another child, unless authorities step in to get him proper help;
and that doesn’t include ‘counseling’ by a church that could not honestly come to terms with the crime he committed
some thoughts, or maybe just a rant out of anger for the sake of the poor victim who was learning-disabled
Mercy’s Mama wrote:
Indeed, it is like a formula movie, change the cast and the names but it entirely predictable. Except this genre isn’t a “feel good” flick. The only part out of the ordinary was the elder that recommended calling the police.
Hopefully this going public will shame some of the people who have shunned this woman and her son.
And 9 Marks likes Ken Ramey: http://9marks.org/review/book-review-expository-listening-by-ken-ramey/
I am sickened by this and agree with every point you made, Dee.
There is a whole lot of CYA in this letter but his own beliefs and attitudes also leak out.
“Sadly, what should have remained a private matter between the individuals involved”
Yeah- sadly for HIM because now he has to CYA.
NOOOO it should NOT be private! Why should it be private? That’s like putting a rug over a hole in the floor when you need to be posting a danger sign in front of it!
“I cannot even begin to imagine the unspeakable grief and pain of a mother’s heart ” – I notice he does not speak of the grief or pain -or FEAR- of Billy. In assigning the grief and pain to “a mother’s heart” he subtly implies that she is grief-stricken only because her son committed sexual sin. The poor woman, she’s so disappointed…
“whose son was sinned against sexually by another teenage boy” I guess Ramey is too delicate to say RAPED. “Sinned against” is downgrading rape into a situation of 2 teenagers- 2 kids – “sinning” (doing something together that they shouldn’t have, you know, boys will be boys). I think the question needs to be asked, is this situation normal to Ramey?
“like every church we minister to an unknown number of people who have committed sexual sin including fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc.,”
First of all he implies that every church is full of sexual sin and pedophiles. This makes me question why he is trying to normalize this. Is there more he is aware of?
I notice he did not say “former” fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc. No, he just says “they have committed” these things. That doesn’t mean they’re not still committing them, and further, pedophiles are never cured, and are never safe to be around children. He doesn’t seem to mind having pedophiles in his congregation. He seems awfully comfortable with it. Are his sympathies with them? Does he identify with them?
I think it’s important to note that Joe did not just decide out of the blue to do this one day. There is a whole, long story behind why Joe is the way he is. And you can bet it’s all been neatly and tidily kept under that rug that “pastor” Ramey tried to put this incident under, with a lot of other stuff that needs to be exposed to the light of day.
I’m so proud of Shauna for putting her son first and fighting for him! #1 mom! And for Billy for not being afraid to tell the truth. I pray that God will bless you both, and replace every false friend and every job position you’ve lost with a better one.
What is this thing about the dead animal parts?? I did google it, it’s out there, and there is a similar cheesy Ramey letter trying to minimize it. The youth group has games that involve dead animal parts. Who does this??
That place is clearly not a church, but a cult.
Dee, hoping you have info. on the stuff about the dead animals that doesn’t equate it with Druids, witchcraft or Satan – that’s all I’ve been able to find so far. However, the use of dead animals and animal parts in “games” is revolting, from an animal welfare standpoint alone. What kind of sicko would come up with that? (I could answer my own question, but will refrain for now.)
Shauna and Billy, these people are dangerous and you are better off far away from them. They are, i think, heartless. But i do not believe that they are even remotely reflecting the love and compassion of Christ. I am so very sorry for what has been done (to you both), and you are certainly in my thoughts.
There is more on the lawsuit against Dahl,Payne, Mewhinney,and Ramey on this page http://caselaw.findlaw.com/wa-court-of-appeals/1540805.html
I wish I understood enough about the law to grasp exactly what it’s saying.
There is also more about this Valley Fourth Memorial Church in Spokane, where this molestation occurred, here http://www.nwcn.com/story/news/local/2014/07/30/12839020/
According to this article, there were more victims. And here is how the church leadership “helped” them:
“Before resorting to a lawsuit, Jon says he went to the Valley Fourth Church leadership for help and felt victimized again.
“As a result of me saying I was molested, I had to do six months anger management and was supposed to do a year of anti-gay the whatever it’s called therapy conversion therapy, where you go from gay to straight. And I needed to be meeting with one of their ministers, otherwise I didn’t have good standing in the faith,” said Jon.”
And here’s an older molestation story connected with that same church https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19890329&id=QlxWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1e8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6883,8657061&hl=en
And yet another, the then-pastor of the church minimizing charges of child molesting by a high school teacher https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19881019&id=q8cSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2_kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5956,362511&hl=en
Man, what a legacy. It’s almost like it’s part of their religion.
Y’all do such great work with this website. My prayers for healing for this child and his mom.
Also, did anybody click the link to the MacArthur forum?! How have I missed this info? Is there any truth to it?
Bill M
I wouldn’t be surprised if that elder got a secret telling off by Ken for not keeping it “within church grounds.” I can’t imagine how panicked Ken must have been to get there before or at the same time as the cops! Must meddle, must damage control! Must protect image about all else!
@ numo:
I’m also sickened by this, from a health and safety point of view as well: BLOOD AND DEAD ANIMALS ARE BIOLOGICAL HAZARDS!! Not to mention they’re teaching kids that playing with death and carcasses is a GAME?!? I’d expect that kind of stuff in a creepypasta, not a church!!!
This surreal Church setting parallels another high profiled case:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/call-it-what-it-is-its-not-adultery-its-abuse-79448/
In the Jack Schaap case it was abuse and molestation of a vulnerable 16 year old girl but adultery. In this case it isn’t rape but just a sinful sexual act like fornication.
Should all this be private or discreet? Not if the leadership follows the Golden Rule. I wouldn’t want Joe near children or other Youth. And by having Joe visibly in that church and threateningly gaze at “Billy” is a constant reminder of that rape.
This is like so much — sin leveling to the extreme.
Well, it makes me sick to my stomach, but doesn’t surprise me a bit. In my experience, there is a significantly high correlation between those who endorse “biblical” “counseling” and hurtful, harmful, and sometimes illegal handling of various issues, especially abuse. As well, The Masters “seminary” has a history of churning out arrogant, uneducated, and emotionally crippled individuals. Not sure what it is about the culture there, but even when I was neck deep in SBC fundamentalism, we all knew that it was a cult-like institution that turned seminary students into epistemologically-challenged blowhards.
@ Pam Palmer:
It says that he doesn’t recognise any authority as being above his own.
#13. He implied that he was trying to work “with” the authorities. The truth was that he was trying to work against them. He was fighting against truth and God at that point.
Shauna & Billy: your story really touches me. Just know there are so many people out here who believe you, are behind you & want to see Billy heal as much as possible & live a brilliant life. Shame on your former church, they’re so ignorant it should be criminal.
Daisy wrote:
I noticed that, too, Daisy. The rape of a teenage boy is somehow made equivalent to other “sexual sins” like adultery, instead of being recognized as a violent crime. And that supports the suspicion that Ramey doesn’t even consider Billy to be the victim of a crime.
What this pastor fails to see is that rape is primarily not about sex, but about power. Any rapist may indulge his sexual fantasies, but what this really is about is that he exploits a power differential between the rapist and the victim that allows him (it’s usually “him”) to forgo the necessity to control his fantasy and not act upon it. But a power-crazed pastor would not see this as a sin, maybe.
Rape is about the power to violate the personal physical and mental integrity of another person. To put being subject to a rape (= victim of force) on the same level as consensual nonmarital intercourse between adults is beyond the pale.
The fact that a vicious violent crime happened but that this man cares more about the “repentance” of the perp than about the hurt of the victim tells us all we need to know about him.
Remind me, does repentance have to bear any fruit, or is it enough to say “I repent” to continue bullying the victim? Reminds me of Friskle’s “repentance”.
Gus wrote:
So true. Definitely a power and control crime opposed to a consensual act.
I am in tears this morning. I guess I was blind to a lot of things in Ken's letter. I was so mad at other things he said that I failed to see how he again is telling me this isn't a rape but that my son is a perpetrator in his own abuse. He did this to me the entire 6 months I stuck around trying to get help and believing Ken when he said he lived us and wanted to help.
Yet everything he did was the opposite of help. Everything he did implied that he didn't believe my son was raped but then his words were we love you we want to shepherd you and your son through this dark time. He was fake to our face and stabbing us in the back. I'm sick at the realization that Ken continues to attack my son, who to this day has PTSD and developed a stutter as a direct result from the RAPE!
Thank you all for your support. There was none from this church, except for a handful who spoke out for my son and believe me they paid a high price for doing it. Beakerj wrote:
It should be mentioned that as I was in the ambulance with my son. Ken was attempting to get access to me. It should be said that the officer threatened to arrest Ken if he did not back off that he was trying to impede their investigation. He was told 3 times to stay away from me because Ken already spoke to the teen and his mother which he wasn't supposed to do. @ Anne:
Ken was threatened with arrest for trying to interfere with the investigation. He was attempting to gain access to us while I was in the ambulance with my son. Ken kept persisting on coming near the ambulance to talk to me when the officer said no you can't. That Ken spoke to the mother and perpetrator and he was not supposed to. Ken told the officer he was my pastor and again persisted to come to the door of the ambulance. The officer got in between the door and Ken he said I'm going to tell you one more time if you don't back off I'm going to arrest you for interfering in a crime scene Anne wrote:
“If a pedophile confesses and repents of sex abuse, Ramey says we should conceal it out of love. NOOOOOOOO. A young man who rapes and threatens another teen has deep seated problems and his problems should become common knowledge so that the members of the church can protect their own children. It seem like Ramey is not too concerned about repeated rape if the person has *confessed Christ”
This is the one that many pastors believe and practice, They consider that the mere saying the words “I repent” means they actually repented and that we must forgive and move on. To them it means fellowship at church as a functioning member.
( of course this is less about repentance and more about fake unity and not doing the hard work of dealing with a very dis unifying issue)
Christianity has become bizarre and creepy in this respect. There is a sort of a fan like demeanor when it comes to those who do evil deeds. Look! They repented! I am a loving and forgiving person just like Jesus. The victims need to suck it up and stop causing trouble. Don’t bring it up, victim and you will get over it. Never mind the perp is a con anyway. Perfect for pastors!
And the idea perpetuated that the criminal will be escorted around church is ridiculous. Let’s forget the logistical problems with that and think of the victim for a change. Not only is the victim abused and tortured but they have to share church with their torturer?
I agree. I do have to say though the website referencing the dead animals he has a lot of good points. If you look at the scenerio in which these games are set up trashcan (alter) kids in a circle hands linked and dead animal on the alter screams paganism! !!!if it isn’t Godly what would we call it? I was furious when I found out that my son was there. To these kids they are games they don’t even realize what is being presented to them because their adult leaders are introducing this to them. My question is why? This is dangerous has anyone heard of ecoli, samanila??? Kids kissing the animal parts including the pastors kids. One kid is seen running when a leader trise to put a bloody part on him. He ran in fear. These games clearly are not Christian or Christ centered. Then I find John MacArthur site where it is,even more blatant with the dead animals. It desensitizes kids to partake in this activity. If kids don’t have any concern over God’s creation, life, or just being decent and set apart what are they learning here? To ignore desecration of life and this can lead to not caring about others. I was upset when I saw my son In one of those videos. My son said he didn’t like it and now I know why he did not want to go back to these camps. numo wrote:
It makes me so mad when they say the person sinned instead of saying he raped the person. Just like calling the person who committed the crime the alleged perpetrator. There is never anything alleged about. The person did the crime and admitted it. I know all these ministers and their cohorts, etc try to be so “politically correct”. They don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but yet don’t stand up for the truth nor to help the person the crime was committed against. I also find it interesting that these older boys came over to play with this young man who was mentally a lot younger than they were. I sort of think it was in their minds all along. To sexually abuse and rape this young man.
The power dynamics of rape are often misunderstood. The evil cretins don’t usually rape those who have power whether physical or some cultural standing that could go after them. They look for easy pickings like a child or a developmentally behind boy of a poor single mom. That is just another evil dynamic involved often ignored by pastors in order to make it about “sex”. CJ Mahaney trained pastors tried to pass it off as boys just “experimenting”.
Ramey’s letter proves he views the world in this paradigm, too. His lack of concern for the victim is loud and clear. And he comes from that world where this has been ingrained. He was “knowingly” harboring a sexual offender and wanting it to remain “private” so other parents would not know.
But, if the evil con rapist utters the magic words: I confess and repent that is all that matters. The victim be damned.
Kemi wrote:
That is just it. Their kids would never be targeted. They lack empathy and that is horrible deficit in a pastor. Everything is about growing and maintaining the institution that makes them great. That means they play down the evil nature of crimes against the least of these because the institution and their “great name” must be preserved because they are doing great things for God. (This is how they think and it is their normal which is why church has become a dangerous place)
Horrible incident. Had the mother not walked in then how long could the abuse have gone on? I appreciate the courage it takes to speak out – however painful. It exposes this pastor for charlatan he is, it exposes the church for the toxic environment that it is, thereby giving others the opportunity to leave and perhaps preventing future abuse.
I’ve been reading up on the Neo Cal movement and from what I’ve read, there’s a reason evangelical Christians are concerned – beyond the obvious exposed in this post.
This movement seems to promote a belief that only certain folks are getting to heaven – the so-called “elect”. I’m guessing that pastors who follow this theology consider themselves “elect” and therefore look for others they consider “elect”. They can’t be wrong as God’s chosen and this could be why, even in the face of overwhelming evidence they refuse to believe that those in the “elect” could continue in “sin” – and why they shun the professional help of medicine, psychology etc.
By believing and supporting the “elect” then they have interest in outsiders as they were doomed to heck anyway.
I wonder if they believe all the “elect” are only guys like themselves – or guys who “repent” (women don’t seem to have that option). This could explain the almost pathological misogyny (sorry – “complementarianism”) as well as the callous disregard for victims. In their worldview these people are already doomed.
Since they only care about their own, have no interest in the outside world beyond their own fiefdoms (which probably emulate their version of God’s Kingdom ) – with a chosen body already predetermined, can they really be considered “evangelical”. Isn’t “evangelicalism” more about caring for the entire community – bringing people to Jesus? I’m just starting to delve into what this theology is about so please correct me if I’m wrong.
Jack wrote:
This statement should have said “no interest in outsiders”.
@ Pam Palmer:
Faster than a speeding bullet-Superwoman!
Nancy2 wrote:
I fear that if the Calviinstas were in charge, they would cover up murders down by friends and behead the ones done by Arminianists.
Nicholas wrote:
Ugggh. The very first paragraph of the article takes the definition of the church “to meet … to give thanks and glory to God” and twists the meaning to “people gathered to sit under the preached word.”
I am so sick of these pulpit power trips
@ Pam Palmer:
Pam has been a wonderful support to Shauna. She is as much of a hero. For those who do not recognize her name, she is the mom featured in the Washingtonian article about SGM.
Pam Palmer wrote:
Darn straight! His response is so off kilter that it makes me wonder if he has ever been involved in something like this in the past.
JeffT wrote:
That should be placed on a plaque somewhere.
@ marquis:
This is too bizarre for words. It reminds me of a camp where a youth pastor was hiking with teens and they came upon a statue of Mary that the youth pastor declared an idol and they smashed it to pieces.
But oops, they had hiked off the church camp property onto private land. The destructive activity in the Name of Christ made the paper! Sort of like the Taliban tearing down the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.
Beware these youth camps!
@ dee:
Hahaha I just couldn’t believe that I was first to comment! Almost as shocking as this “pastor’s” treatment of Shauna and her son!! Please note: I’m thinking of putting pastor in quotes from now on with these types of leaders!!
dee wrote:
I wonder, if Ramey himself were raped by a fellow church member, would it be handled the same way? Would the same blame game rules apply to him and the church elders if they were attacked?
dee wrote:
That’s pretty much how Calvinism started, isn’t it? Murder the opposition, idolize the murderers.
@ marquis:
I was going to say something similar. If their youth groups are teaching kids that it’s okay to treat another being’s body any way they wish, it’s enabled/encouraged at least one of them to make the jump from violating animals to violating people. The seeds are completely rotten!
Again I can’t get over how sickening those games are. Blood and guts should NOT be toyed with by kids! Where is the innocence?!
To refer back to your other comment that replied to mine, I can’t believe Ken’s nerve in trying to interfere with the investigation like that. I’m so sorry you had to deal with his harassment on top of it all. I wish the police officer HAD arrested him!
Just goes to show how much more he cares about himself and his image than doing the right thing. He was planning to try and make you and your son retract charges, wasn’t he? Or at least convince you to go easy on the perp/twist the truth. As someone who is currently trying to get police/investigation work this outrages me. And motivates me to pursue that career even more! I pray that God will deliver the justice (and healing) that you and your son were denied.
I hope there are people in Shuana’s town who will support/employ her in place of those so-call ‘Christians’. Those so-called ‘Christians who dropped Shuana and took away their support and her income. Those so-called ‘Christians’ who wanted her to be a silent doormat to be walked on and wanted to sacrifice her disable son on the altar of Saving Face.
The Pharisees in the day of Jesus have nothing on these so-call ‘Christians’ when it comes to tithing mint, dill, and cumin but neglecting the law and justice. (Mt 23:23)
And Hyacinth Bucket has nothing on these people when it comes to keeping up appearances.
I just want to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Shauna, marquis, Pam, and other parents who have the spiritual and mental strength and courage to stand against the powers that have tried to hide abuse. You are not only defending and fighting for your own children, your courage to go public is helping protect other children. May God bless you and your children for what you do.
Pam Palmer wrote:
You might think about putting ‘Christian’ in quotes while you are at it.
I’m not doubting their salvation. That’s between them and God.
But I am doubting them as representations of Christ.
Daisy wrote:
In all his years as a Federal Prosecutor specializing in child sex abuse cases, Boz T says he has NEVER seen a church take the side of the victim. ALWAYS “RALLY ROUND THE PEDO, BOYS! IN GAWD’S NAME!”
Nancy2 wrote:
RANK. HATH. ITS. PRIVILEGES.
“TOUCH NOT GAWD’S ANOINTED!!!!! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!!!!!’
Nancy2 wrote:
My experience with a similar event concerning a horrible beating is they don’t have the capacity to connect dots. They are all about themselves.
A mega church pastor counseled a woman who survived 6 operations from severe domestic abuse before he became too important to bother with such people. He told her she had to take 50% of the blame. He was adament on this point.
A few years later I happened to know he was beaten, robbed and left by the side of the road after his car broke down. Instead of it teaching him compassion for others, he became so angry and sullen the elders benched him from stage for 6 months. He was furious God allowed that to happen to him!
He is still a celebrity jerk today.
Mara wrote:
“Pronounced ‘Bouquet’. ‘BOUQUET’!”
marquis wrote:
WHISKEY TANGO FOXTROT?????
I don’t think even Santeria or Voudoun do stuff like that!
@ marquis:
Shauna, I remember reading your comments from months ago, and wondering about the details of your story (you alluded to it). I had no idea that it was anywhere near this bad, but it’s good to finally understand what brought you here to TWW.
Ramey’s actions and attitude are unconscionable. I’ll be praying for you, and for your son to find the healing and peace of mind that he needs.
Lydia wrote:
I do know from time in various fandoms that classy villains develop a fan following of their own, but this is no Darth Vader or Nightmare Moon, THESE ARE TWO-BIT SHORT-EYES!
They need Stan & Kyle from South Park to speak Words of Sense and Truth, like at the end of the “Cartman Joins NAMBLA” episode. Whenever the pedos started talking about persecution and true love, Stan would pipe back:
“DUDE! YOU! HAVE! SEX! WITH! CHILDREN!!!!!”
marquis wrote:
Wow, that is way out of line. Thank God for that officer, setting boundaries. And he went and spoke with the perpetrator and his mother against the wishes of the police? Wow. I guess a person is better off not calling on their church at all in a situation like this. Just amazing.
I wonder if this is how he learned to handle things at Valley Fourth Christian in Spokane, if indeed he is the same youth pastor named Ken Ramey mentioned in this lawsuit from the 1980’s? Does anyone know for sure?
Nancy2 wrote:
and here http://www.nwcn.com/story/news/local/2014/07/30/12839020/
Shauna, I can’t imagine how betrayed you must feel, what happened to your son is heartbreaking and infuriating enough without the betrayal of your church -what should be your support system- on top of it. May God heal and comfort you and your son.
Lydia wrote:
I wonder how much of this is the lure of the Juicy Testimony, the opportunity to vicariously enjoy all that Forbidden SIN SIN SIN by osmosis while still staying Respectable. Porn Fix for Church Ladies.
And how much is the TA mind game “Tough Guy”; i.e. hanging around with violent evil so you can feel like a real Badass. (ISIS used this successfully as an online recruiting appeal, and the stories of ISIS atrocities just reinforced the appeal.)
Pam Palmer wrote:
Please do!! They shouldn’t be called pastor.
Gustav von Osterreich wrote:
It is not perp and victim but PENETRATOR and PENETRATED. As it was in the days before ha-Torah, ANIMAL FORCED-DOMINANCE DISPLAY; PENETRATOR ON TOP, PENETRATED ON BOTTOM.
And naturally “Pastor(TM)” would side with the Penetrator. “Pastor(TM)” is also The Dominant One, the Alpha Male. And in siding with the Penetrator, he joins in the Animal Forced Dominance Display to reinforce his Alpha Male Dominance. (With Plausible Deniablity because he really didn’t do the deed — nice trick.)
Nicholas wrote:
His Ideology is Pure and Correct, Comrades.
Loren Haas wrote:
You know, Yelp Reviews might be a good idea. I don’t remember anyone mentioning doing this before, but it sounds like a GREAT idea to get the warning out. (And since Millenials live in their smartphone screens, Yelp might have a longer reach than you think. Especially since Millenials are entering their Family and Peak Tithing years…)
marquis wrote:
I was raised on an old fashioned farm where we produced and processed our own food (still do, but not to the extent that my parents and grandparents did). I learned to categorize at a very young age. Even I can’t fathom what these games are doing to these kids or what purpose they serve! How many horrid criminals began their maligned careers by mutilating animals? Are the adults who lead these games just redirecting their own twisted desires?
In regard to the camp activities, I am creeped out by adults who want to watch children wrestle around in mud.
Brings to mind James Talbot, one of the Spotlight priests who is spoken of in this article https://thouarttheman.org/2016/02/19/3610/ on Todd Wilhelm’s site.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
So I said, wait a minute; how did all these sex abuse cases end up in federal court? What is wrong with this statement? So I checked his professional bio. He was not a federal prosecutor; he was in state court where the sex abuse cases are, which means that he probably saw a gracious plenty of cases.
Anyhow, his professional bio is so impressive that I thought I would post the link for anybody who does not already know it.
http://www.landispa.com/attorneys/basyletchividjian/
After all the press this “Ken”, “Ken”, “Ken” is getting in this thread, I am so glad I don’t use my real name (Ken) on these comments…
Victorious wrote:
I tend to agree with you. Rape is just so yucky …It really screws things up at the church…
Truly broken hearted wrote:
Another quote that should be engraved in stone.
okrapod wrote:
OK. Thought for some weird reason he was at the Federal level.
Now watch. I know the drill. From prior experience, this one slip-up now invalidates EVERYTHING I have ever said/posted among the fanboys.
dee wrote:
Just like in Dune, “The Tithes Must Flow”.
Hi Nancy I’m shauna marquis thank you for your amazing support. I have a deep respect for pam and have gotten to know her. It is a privilege to know this beautiful mom whose daughter is not only stunningly beautiful but what a brave young woman to let her story be told. Who knew that after 20 years from the day their nightmare began that pam and her beautiful daughter would be ministering to my heart and my son. This is God’s divine meeting and His divine providence. Who knew that Dl the two Dee’s would be used to bring us,together and become incredible defenders of those neglected, turned out, and abused? Who knew that we would be supported by this incredible body of believers offering prayers and support which was what should have happened in the churches where we communicate together in worship? I hope all of you understand what you mean to me and especially my beautiful, smart, sweet sweet son. I have never loved someone so much and I can never thank God enough for this beautiful boy who entered my life 16 years ago. Tears overwhelm me when I think about what a blessing my son is and everything God is teaching me as I get to raise him. This certainly cut to the core of my soul as it would any parent. Already I’m receiving nasty texts from supporters of ken who are in the inner circle at LBC and that is ok because the TRUTH makes thme angry, I get it. I am thankful that not everyone is buying KEN RAMEY’S lies and deception. All I can say is keep drawing out the truth in his letter. Ask me anything I will back up everything Dee posted and I will be happy to answer questions. We did this not only to defend my child’s name but for others afraid to come forward. We also did it to take the act of sexual abuse out of the dark and into the light. We did it to expose those who work craftily to keep it in the dark! My son has taken the shame that ken and the elders at LAKESIDE BIBLE CHURCH and put it right back at them and his perpetrator!!!! He can speak boldly about this and share. I always told him to keep this silent is to tell my son he has something to be ashamed of. Sexual abuse is not shameful when you have been a victim it should be shameful for the perpetrator and those who cover for them!!!! We love you all and just know my son and I are reading every comment and we are going to respond to everyone of them so please don’t stop checking. I am sitting in my car right now reading posts and commenting after spending 2 hours feeding 24 horses. I’m grateful for what work God gives me. I literally depend on him for my work and any work I do get literally puts food on our table that day. I receive no financial assistance or aide,and no child support and believe it or not I have learned more about depending on God through the kindness of believers who offer work and help. This post will certainly cripple any remaining customers of mine through LBC but I made a decision with my son to go ALL in and really step out on faith. I trust Dee and she certainly has our best intrest at heart. What a sweet caring sister. I truly love you Dee. Nancy2 wrote:
@ Stan:
I jotted this down before going to bed. Here’s a good rundown of the law in Texas:
https://www.smu.edu/ola/BriefingPapers/DutytoReportSuspectedChildAbuseintheStateofTexas
All adults are given the same responsibilities to report child abuse, there are no distinctions for certain professions, and failure to report in 48 hours is a crime. The Elder did the right thing by the law to call for the police.
@ siteseer:
A great way to learn about a church is to look up the church’s Twitter and see who they follow. In addition to the usual suspects, LBC follows Paul Washer. He’s usually too much for even the gospel(TM) crowd. The idea of you made out with someone at a party when you were a teenager = you’re a prostitute and pedophile is one of his calling cards.
siteseer wrote:
Do any of these guys know that Mud Wrestling(TM) has an obvious SEXUAL association?
What are they teaching them in Christianese Bubble schools these days?
@ dee:
After you connected us, even though Shauna and I have never had the pleasure of meeting in person, I feel like she is a “sister-from-another-mother”! She is a warrior for her son and to protect other children from abuse and re-victimization like this! Don’t mess with “Texas”!! 🙂
@ marquis:
I tried to google this and I cannot find the articles/ links you all have apparently found. Can you help me out here?
Nancy2 wrote:
A retired FBI Profiler wrote of the “Homicidal Triad” common pattern in the childhood of most serial killers: Bedwetting, Fire-setting, and Cruelty to Animals.
Staying Respectable by Indulging their Desires secondhand.
Anyone want to make book on it?
I chuckled at this no worries your name us not tainted. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
siteseer wrote:
Or “Because it’s Normal, it isn’t so bad if *I* do it too”?
i.e. “Everybody’s Doing It!”
Yes,yes,and again I say YES!!!! when churches address abuse appropriately giving care to the victims and not protection to the perpetrator along with his secret I say that’s a church I would pick 1,000 times over places like SGM AND LBC! please post reviews until KEN RAMEY can acknowledge what the state of Texas CHARGED, ARRESTED, AND CONVICTED HIM OF that this was RAPE, period! Stop blaming my child… Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
THIS IS STRAIGHT OUT OF PRISON RAPE CULTURE. OR ISIS RAPE CULTURE.
ONLY THE PENETRATED IS THE HOMOSEXUAL, BECAUSE HE WAS THE OMEGA MALE ON THE BOTTOM. THE PENETRATOR IS EVEN MORE OF A MANLY-MAN ALPHA MALE BECAUSE “HE MADE A WOMAN OUT OF HIM”. (Cue Patriarchy/Male Supremacist definition of “Woman” and their position vis-a-vis “Man” — fits right in…)
Since I’ve heard of Church Youth Group games & icebreakers that really should be taking place in a room with a disturbing pattern of dots on the ceiling and a portrait of a woman with a hair-covered tongue on the wall, I would not be surprised. Sounds too weird to be fiction.
Add a little Can-You-Top-This/Acquire the REAL Fire and next thing you know they’ll have the church kids pick up the Atheme and do the animal themselves.
Ken told me directly ” shauna, wouldn’t it be great if we could show the courts the D.A., everyone that you can forgive and both families can worship here at LBC together”? This was 1 month after my sons rape. This was ken trying to convince me to stay away from the investigation, not cooperate. While at the same time leading me to believe he was supporting us. He is good at the double speak. Remember I spent 6 years there never an issue always them being kind. I had no reason to not believe him when he said he loved us wanted to help. He used scripture to convince me and I believed it. Then he would twist scripture on me and attack when I told anyone what happened. The counselors he had counsel us were horrible. If dee let’s me I will post the type of counseling we received its horrible. It’s all on paper. There is so much more to this and it’s just beginning. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Pam Palmer wrote:
They should be seeing themselves as servants, not leaders. I’m done with leaders and I’m completely done with such “pastors”.
Considering what the Deebs have covered in the past, these are BRIGHT RED WARNING FLAGS.
As of today, It Never Existed, Comrade.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#/media/File:Soviet_censorship_with_Stalin.jpg
Nancy2 wrote:
You make a very good point.
Jack wrote:
“ARE THEY GOD’S CHOSEN? ARE THEY GOD’S CHOSEN?”
— Gordon Dickson, “Soldier, Ask Not”
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, “Wizards”
Un. Believable. (Well, not really, unfortunately.)
Just how widespread is this issue, and by “this issue” I am referring to authoritarian pastors who believe their commitment to the gospelTM grants them the right to interpret and even overrule the laws governing the land?
Harley wrote:
“Mistakes Were Made…”
— William J “Slick Willie” Clinton, Esq.
Anybody want to leave a negative review on Lakeside’s FB page? 😉
https://www.facebook.com/Lakeside-Bible-Church-148475568549394/reviews/
What comes to mind is Timothy 3:1-5
“Godlessness in the Last Days
3 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.”
My impression of what happened above. It isn’t a first for Ken Ramey from Nancy’s link above.
numo wrote:
Sounds like all the coverage has been filtering it through their own Church Lady/Witchfinder-General lens.
Burwell Stark wrote:
To which Pastor/Dictator would answer: “Laws of Men or Word of GAWD? Who Do YOU Serve?”
numo wrote:
Have no fear! i don’t equate nonsense with Druids. This is youth activities run amuck and super weird. I do, however, like exposing super weird amongst the *oh so biblically correct” Calvinistas.
Yes, DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT CONTACT YOUR CHURCH IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS!! It’s better to let the police do their job. Let me give huge credit to The Montgomery County Polive Department for professionalism. They were amazing to my son and they did an incredible job. I was told by the detectives that because the teens were close in age normally they don’t do an arrest. However based on the pornagraphy on the t.v. the statements, the fact that I interrupted the rape, and the scene itself they charged and arrested him. My son was taken by ambulance to Herman Memorial Hospital. They removed everything out of the bedroom such as bedding, clothes, pillows,ect… this was no private matter and KEN KNOWS IT! Byou the way Tyler Jacobs wife Amy took us home from the hospital that morning. How did she know that the police bumped the charges to two counts of aggravated sexual assault on my son? The police wouldn’t give that to an elders wife or ken. I do know that there is a retired police officer Fred Brinkman at LBC whose good friends with the perpetrators family. Who he and his wife took it upon themselves to remove me from children’s ministry of three years. This was confirmed by Randy Swearingen who knew as soon as this happened. He also abandoned my son and hurt him. He also acknowledged lies the family told to the school district when the perpetrator was expelled from the high school after he plead guilty. He and his parents sent emails to teachers claiming that he did nothing wrong that me and my son came in there with lies about him. Ken filed to put in that letter that it got exposed and the perpetrator along with his parents were pulled into court that week and told his plea deal would be revoked of he violated it again. Part of his plea was admitting he committed the rape!!! Ken never addressed that lie or disciplined them for it but he sure disciplined my son. Randy knew this and acknowledged it yet did he ever go to ken and ask why that was not addressed. Randy supposidly cared about my child. He also admitted to me on the phone that we were not shown grace and that he didn’t think that was right. Well what did he do to speak up? Nothing. My child was put under church discipline the week after his rape ken said my son had to stay at my side at all times. When from the time he was 8 he had been climbing trees with kens son jacob and running all over the church with him like the other children do. Here he was treating a rape victim like a pediphile but putting it under the guise of we want to make sure *Billy* (ed) is ok. Did ken mention that he showed up to the perpetrators bond hearing? Yes he sure did and ken angered the judge by asking him to drop the charges and turn the counseling and care of him and my son to the church. This is documented people and came straight from the D.A. himself! You see that’s kens cooperation talk about a big fat lier and manipulater. siteseer wrote:
Mark wrote:
Unfortunately, Mark, I have only heard that excerpt in the context of THE LAST DAYS(TM), i.e. a Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist Prophecy angle.
Thank you Hal Lindsay…
Nicholas wrote:
Kissy, kissy ….
Nancy2 wrote:
No they cannot, because they don’t want to. When you really think about it , it will force you to re-examine what sin is, what it is not, and what it implies with regard to real life in terms of pragmatism.
okrapod wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ken+Ramey+of+Lakeside+Bible+Church+dead+animals&biw=1325&bih=534&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC7ebNvJfLAhVBzWMKHRApBPkQsAQIUA#imgrc=atAhX2x6OTYfwM%3A
http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/Ken-Ramey-Muddy-and-Bloody-Games.html
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post?id=7093129&goto=nextoldest
No comment on the Druid stuff but the photos pretty much speak for themselves.
siteseer wrote:
I was wondering if he was warning the members that more stories will come.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You have made several statements similar to this idea about several things, and I have said the amen to them before and again. So, once more. I don’t know if evango-neo-cal followers are just ill informed about sexuality, or if they have tolerated some sexual variance within the ranks to the point where they don’t even notice stuff any more, but they need to cut this out. If the stats that crop up from time to time about what church going christians are viewing on their computers is correct then I personally do not for one minute buy the excuse of ‘I did not know.’
And yes, the various pastors do know that there is lots of sexual sin and sexual perversion as well as various crimes within the congregations. Why else do some groups so cling to the idea of clerical privilege. Confession of failure to attend church every minute does not need legal protection of privacy.
@ siteseer:
Thanks to you and Nancy. Deb and I are looking into this and will plan another post.
Beaux wrote:
I think it is worth investigating. When bad things happen in churches, more and more people are turning to the internet to get the word out. I do not believe in blowing off such reports and plan to look closely into them.
@ Beaux:
It is only through the Internet that The Village Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries scandals came to light. Thank you for your kind comment!
“…but like every church we minister to an unknown number of people who have committed sexual sin including fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, pedophiles, etc.,”
If there are pedophiles whose identities are unknown, how does he know they are actually repentant? Unlike the other sins on that list, this one is a serious crime.
Marquis said:
“Yes!!!! Ken told me that he wouldn’t call it rape! I asked him what does he mean he won’t call it rape? He said it’s sexual assault but not rape! So I text him the definition according to Wikipedia the definition of sexual assault which says it’s RAPE! he still refused to call it rape. I realized then that he never saw my son as a victim.”
My takeaway from this is that for Hamey, it’s only rape if it’s penis-in-vagina; anything else is “sexual assault”. Especially anything that in his mind is associated with gays.
siteseer wrote:
It is. It’s what happens when you sin-level rape and a little white lie. These “sins” are no worse than anyone else’s sins.
@ Anne:
Ahh, you’ve been reading. It is bizarre. We’ll try to write about it next week. I got a chance to view some of the videos before they disappeared and will be pleased to share my eyewitness testimony. Talk about weird…
Mark wrote:
Good comment.
@ Pam Palmer:
You were so wonderful to take the time to talk with her. She needed you perspective. Two hero moms !!!!
Through the months, I was impressed with the consistencies of her recall of events. That consistency was what convinced me of the truthfulness of her testimony.
@ Burwell Stark:
They do not subscribe to the idea of individual civil rights unless it involves themselves. I am serious about this. Just go read up on 9 Marx and all the others. Your allegiance to their interpretation of scripture is all that matters.
How else can you control people in a free society?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Me too , but these people are arrogant and seem to believe they are above reproach. Also last days could be any day as far as I in my limited understanding am concerned.
Sunny you are an amazing sister. I want share if she doesn’t mind that I have known sunny for over 20 years. We went to college together and she has walked with me in the darkness. Sunny was encouraging me to get loose from the heavy loads of spiritual abuse we were suffering at the hands of ken and the elders. I wasn’t seeing it at first. She was an incredible source of support along with another woman Lora Ryse who had an incredible knowledge of the std medications my son had to take. One in particular Truvada is a HIV medicine. It is standard in rape cases and you have 36 hours from the time of the assault to get on it or its no good. Once your on it you can not stop for 30 days. Look up the side affects you risk kidney failure and heart failure especially in children who do not have the disease. There is no time to make a decision the alternative is getting infected or take the risk. Obviously I wanted to give my son the best shot possible in not contracting the virus. By taking it it reduces your chances by 80% however the risk is high to. My son was raped by his perpetrator, then raped again by the rape examiner(we knew was necessary ). My son refused the exam initially and I was able to help him understand why it was necessary. He went but only if I was with him. I will never forget the suffering that went through as my baby was bent over a table his hands in mine looking me in the eyes begging mommy please make her stop as she was inserting 4 large cue tips in my sons rectum as he pleaded and cried. All I could do was cry with him and promise him it would be ok and how incredibly brave he is. All I could do was tell him I love him and that I would be there. The rape examiner confirmed that his perpetrator tore my child. I told ken as he was in my sons private room waiting for the examiner to finish. Then it took 6 people to hold him down for the std shots and he screamed. I have to stop for now as my heart hurts. I don’t regret sharing I promise. I believe this is necessary especially since ken is trying to portray my baby still as it is his fault. Sunny wrote:
People, what is going on? I clicked on the link in the comment ‘the john macarthur forum’ and I get ‘the watchman wakes in vain’ which looks like classic wacko on the surface. Is this what you all are talking about? If so, why is that website not wacko??
@ okrapod:
error: the link in the post, not the link in the comment
Okrapod, I agree about the obvious nuttery at that site. Conspiracy theory websites usually feature at least some truth, or no one would take them seriously. I think they stumbled across something truly inappropriate and ran with it.
Well, I haven’t read all the comments so someone else may have said this. I think I know why Ken Ramey put perpetrator in quotes. It has everything to do with his theology (very much like Doug Wilson’s with regard to Jamin Wight and Stephen Sitler). Since the “perpetrator” confessed his faith (AFTER HE WAS CAUGHT OF COURSE) he is no longer a perpetrator. And as such, they don’t regard him as a pedophile rapist. What this really is: Cheap Grace. And of course ignorance when it comes to the modus operandi of the perpetrator. These manipulators play the repentance game to gain acceptance and easy access into the church so they can prey (no not PRAY) again.
I am so sorry Sauna and Billy that both of you have had to suffer such cruel treatment at the hands of people who bear the name of Christian. I pray that you will find peace and community among folks who know the love and compassion of Christ. I have no doubt that those kind of folks can be found here at TWW. Blessings to the both of you!
marquis wrote:
This is why victims desperately need those who get it around them. You have been in the middle of a heinous act perpetrated on your son. Of course you are going to miss the subtle reframing of the event and perp.
By the time we catch these things it is late to correct it before it is ingrained in the minds of those on the sidelines he is talking to.
Thus is one of the things I am absolutely convicted about. Victims desperately need advocates.
Around a year ago I read some story about how a few megachurches were getting themselves into legal trouble because of things getting out of control in the youth groups. Teens were being dared or coerced into eating disgusting things that actually put their health at risk, just to name one. It wasn’t from any nefarious intentions, just leaders worried about declining youth involvement given other activities kids can sign up for nowadays. Oneupsmanship and can-you-top-this ultimately came back to bite them.
@ marquis:
Just to warn you, I think that in the heat of emotion you may have accidentally given away your son’s real name.
Can dee/deb redact that? You should be able to figure out which name I mean by grammatical and situational context.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Because calling it sin puts it on the level of all other sins – the prime example of SIN LEVELING. So the perpetrator’s sins are no worse than the person who told a white lie. This is their theology folks. Watch out because a lot of Protestant churches teach this!
Here’s something else I see…Ramey is calling Shauna and Billy liars. These two who were present at the scene of the outrageous CRIME told the police exactly what happened. Then Ramey and other church members spin the truth into a lie and call such an egregious crime a consensual act. Sound familiar? Doug Wilson said the very same thing about the Jamin Wight case. He said it was a consensual act between two people – even though Natalie was only 13 yrs. old when the grooming started and Wight was 10 yrs older than her. And then he petitioned the court to reduce the penalties for Jamin Wight’s crimes. Look…this is the M.O. of these complementarian/patriarchal Reformed-Calvinist churches.
Nancy2 wrote:
No they cannot. Their very theology is built upon sin leveling. All sins are equal before a Holy God. Except maybe when it is the HEATHEN and HERETICS committing such sins. Like the LGBT crowd or those idolatrous Roman Catholic papists!
Nancy2: I was referring to that last paragraph: “Murder is a sin. Does he think the same privacy should be graciously given to murderers? Can these people not distinguish between a petty sin and a horrendous crime?”
You know what I think? These kinds of churches would be all too happy if all crimes committed by church members were arbitrated within the church – not civil government (society at large). They despise law enforcement when it comes down to their own folks breaking the law.
Darlene wrote:
I think it is partly theological, but also it sounds like a trap where the rescuer speaks up for the miscreant in court and tries to use influence and if he is successful then the person who has been helped is indebted to the one (pastor) who helped him. Like the mob doing favors maybe?
On the line perhaps of how David built a band of mercenaries out of people who were desperate, and then David’s men were loyal to him. Giving the desperate a new lease on life can be beneficial to both parties involved.
You owe me is a powerful control statement.
Darlene wrote:
Yeah. I remember it from a tract titled “The Calvary Road” from my time in-country.
“FOR GOD HATES [all] SIN WITH SUCH A PERFECT HATRED…”
Mark wrote:
A God Can Do No Wrong.
Even if his Godhood is only in his own mind.
Lydia wrote:
Otherwise, all you’re gonna get is Third-Party Gaslighting.
marquis wrote:
Ok, wait. A victim of rape is put in church discipline? Did I read that correctly?
Loren Haas wrote:
I say Wartburgers should bombard the Yelp (and is they have Google) reviews. Warn people to STAY AWAY from this church. Maquis: I hope you will be financially compensated for the pain and suffering you and your son have had to endure.
NJ wrote:
I think he’s just blowing smoke up everyone’s collective ass.
That’s a Standard Boilerplate Laundry List of SEXUAL(TM) SINS SINS SINS.
Including the now-exclusively-Christianese word “Fornicators”.
The type of thing a preacher-man can duckspeak without engaging any neuron above the brainstem.
I think these neo calvinists are teaching that all you have to do is repent. It goes away. But the Bible doesn’t teach that. You have to do the punishment for the crime. Saying it isn’t rape is outlandish. Maybe they think a 15 yr old doesn’t have the capacity to commit rape. These kids were watching porn and then he was raped. When Jesus died on the cross, the one thief asked for forgiveness and it was given. Jesus didn’t perform a miracle and get the man off the cross so he could still live. No, the man died for his crime. He paid the punishment for the crime. Yes, he was forgiven, but he wasn’t let off the hook. I guess they are all forgetting this. It should really be remembered. I wonder if there was ever a sermon preached about the dying thief paying for his crime with death even though he was forgiven. I would have liked to have heard it if there was.
dee wrote:
Trying to Spin it in advance?
(Now that’s saying something…)
Nancy2 wrote:
This shows a very disturbing pattern. How many other perpetrators have gotten away with their crimes because of Ramey?
dee wrote:
You have just earwormed me with Josie Cotton’s “Johnny Are You Queer?”
I must now spread it to the TWW Massmind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Yep. And “pastor” Ken asks the judge to drop the charges against the rapist. I wonder if Ken and Doug Wilson were separated at birth.
Nicholas wrote:
In the article is the quote:
“In his book, Expository Listening, Ken Ramey reminds the church to take seriously the power of God’s Word by carefully listening to preaching.”
What a self-serving authoritarian pile of stinking manure. It makes me wonder if Jesus swore when he denounced these Pharisees.
I hope we don’t get one of those drive bys with their “you don’t have all the facts” or I will start swearing and Dee will have to put me in moderation.
@ Lydia:
Unfortunately, I am all too familiar with 9 Marks. I have been working hard to keep the leadership at my church from using their materials. Unfortunately, we are near SEBTS and it is increasingly difficult to stem that tide.
Full disclosure: I am reformed, and deeply so. However, I do not support the current pseudo-reformed model that the SBC is adopting, whatsoever.
What I see in this case and so many other cases is pastors trying to follow any verse in scripture they can find to clean up what they perceive as a mess. Everything “bad” is labeled as sin. However, not everything “bad” is sin. For example, it’s not bad to shine a spotlight on sin; however, they will find verses that will say that out of context and label Shauna and her son as sinners. You bet it’s “bad” for them and their image when there is sin exposed.
One thought that came to mind is that Shauna is a single mom with no “covering” in the eyes of that church. I’m familiar with how women are treated because my pastor is a JMac fan. Because of the way women are treated as inferior to men, I believe Ramey thought he could be her spiritual head and that he knows what’s best. I’m surprised he did not talk about how evil the police were for interfering with “God’s plans.” Hearing Shauna’s summary about the police telling him 3 times and threatening arrest for interference shows the behavior of someone who feels entitled. He wanted to be the one to run the show and make this “problem” go away, and the police were not helping him whatsoever.
For Pastor Ramey, this story needed to fit in his neat and tidy sin/repentance/reconciliation box and then it would all go away.
Sorry, Pastor Ramey. You and your sinful ways have been exposed now. You are a spiritual bully. Shame on you for not caring for those who have been harmed. I don’t expect you’ll get much comfort for your role in this case by reading Ezekiel 34, but I encourage you to read it anyway. You are unfit for the pastorate. Please step down before you harm more sheep.
numo wrote:
Something about Druids, since that name seems to get thrown around a lot:
All we know about the original Druids is what the Romans wrote down about them while they were wiping them out. And a lot of Victorian Romantic “Speculative History”. (At the time, it was legitimate to present speculation as fact when the historical fact was unknown. Really gets today’s historians tearing their hair out; you never know what source is genuine and what’s a Victorian fabrication.)
And Druids (a special type of Cleric spellcaster) have been a character class in Dungeons and Dragons since Eldritch Wizardry in 1976. Though historical Druids were all male, D&D Druids are coed; the most common Old School name for a female Druid was “Blessed Bea”, after the Wiccan greeting.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Also factor in that in the eyes of RESPECTABLE Church Lady types, “single mom” = Whore.
Invoke Virgin/Whore Dichotomy and cue the Church Lady Superiority Dance.
I am still processing evetything. It will take me and couple of days to wrap my mind around this one.
Dee have you contacted Grace to You and asked if they have a statement on this situation?
Darlene wrote:
More or less than with the Jerk with the Kirk in Moscow?
Lydia wrote:
Such a good point! Immediate advocacy. After your child has been victimized the parent(s) are in a type of shock and very emotionally vulnerable for months and even years after. They need an advocate truly on their side.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
From the church website:
“The Men’s Ministry at LBC is committed to training men to faithfully and effectively fulfill their leadership role in the home and in the church by trusting in and following the example of Jesus Christ. Ironmen provides a weekly opportunity during the school year for men to sharpen one another through large-group discussion combined with small-group accountability and prayer (see Calendar for times). ManCamp is an annual highlight for the men in our church where they can be spiritually renewed and refocused.”
Ok…I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I just read about the camps where kids are involved with dead animals. Is my reading comprehension off kilter? Please, someone – anyone explain this in detail. Are the kids in this church involved in some youth group that is connected to dead animals? If so, what is the purpose and how do they find these dead animals? I feel this is entering into Bazarro World territory. Or Night of the Living Dead. Please….someone explain.
FYI
A Carolina pig pickin’ is not a religious much less a pagan festival. It is a barbecue, one of many ways to do barbecue. Satan is not invoked and pagan gods are not represented. The only religious aberration is that somebody might offer thanks to the God of the bible who has not been too keen on pigs so they say. Just in case that is the next accusation that somebody might come up with regarding the south.
If people are interested in making comments directly to LBC or leaving reviews, I have compiled the following links:
Here is their Twitter account:
https://twitter.com/LBCMontgomery
This is their Facebook page (the comment will most likely get pulled and you will be blocked, but some people might see it):
https://www.facebook.com/Lakeside-Bible-Church-148475568549394/
Here is where you can leave a review on Facebook (I do not believe they can remove a review):
https://www.facebook.com/Lakeside-Bible-Church-148475568549394/reviews/
Here is Yelp review site for LBC:
http://www.yelp.com/biz/lakeside-bible-church-montgomery
And Google review site for LBC:
https://www.google.com/search?q=lakeside+bible+church+montgomery&oq=lakeside+bible+church+montgomery&aqs=chrome..69i57.5663j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#lrd=0x864721ec20abe201:0x16cfa69971f1a648,1,,
Dee and Deb, thanks for providing a platform to shine the light on situations like this.
@ Muff Potter:
Hint:
It’s why jay-walking is not a capital offense, and why murder is not punishable by a fine only.
These were not pigs in the videos! There were pig heads and parts of other dead animals on a centered trash can with the part of the dead animal and children who formed a hand linked circle playing tug of war never breaking the circle is what I saw. Very disturbing needless to say and nothing God centered or Christ like to me. It all screamed of the world and at the very least looks pagan. My son was exposed to it at LBC and had I known I wouldhave raised Kane and never gave permission. okrapod wrote:
Also the health department said the same thing when many of us contacted them and filed a complaint. They were stunned and disgusted. The supervisor asked me if this was a satanic church. No one ever mentioned satanism or paganism that was just his assessment after viewing the photos and videos okrapod wrote:
Love love you Julie Ann very astute post and you are dead on. I’m only beginning to shed light on the many fine points,you hit on. Ken will wish he only just did the right thing to begin with and that starts with the truth!Julie Anne Smith wrote:
marquis wrote:
I’m absolutely flabbergasted. Putting the victim under discipline! Plus, interferring in the case and asking that the charges be dropped when the perpetrator had already confessed? Is Ken scared that this will lead to other things coming to light?
Shauna, I know this incredibly painful, but thank you for speaking out. People speaking out and holding leaders accountable is the only way to stop abuse and coverups in the church.
Now, as to the youth group games, this is beyond disturbing. I think others have found this same link, but the pictures tell a pretty powerful story. Oh, and the kids were not allowed to have their cell phones, so they couldn’t access their parents. So, why didn’t any of the kids tell their parents afterwards, or if they did, what did the parents do?
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/macarthurs-xchange-ministry-camp-debasing-and-degrading-young-gentiles-7695650
Yes maam you read that right! My son was standing right there when he told us. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
What’s important to keep in mind is that the pastor, Ken Ramey, was trained by John Macarthur and that Lakeside Bible Church is a Macarthur clone church.
Dee there are other abuses that have occurred in this church and I hope theyou will find courage and support here to come forward. It is not easy but the truth truly is freeing Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sunny wrote:
I would also be interested in creating a fund for Shauna and her son since the LBC congregation has blackballed her and taken away her livelihood…
marquis wrote:
Great for who?
Quick question: is The Watchman Wakes in Vain our conspiracy friend? If so, what about the photos? Are they still valid, believable?
Nancy2 wrote:
Very interesting!! Assuming this is the same Ken Ramey…does he have a history of covering up sexual abuse in the church?
siteseer wrote:
Now if only the exposes WEREN’T written in Christianese by Witchfinders-General…
As-is, they come across as their own brand of Conspiracy nuttery.
Looking at the pics, the dead animal parts look like the sort of offal you could get from a slaughterhouse, not a Druidic Ritual. I wonder if all this started out as a Jackass/Fear Factor “Let’s Get Gross and Disgusting!” to attract teen males and evolved along the lines of “Can You Top This?” as time went on and Entropy set in.
siteseer wrote:
The MANAGAWD, of course.
Look at Our Perfect Church and Perfect Pastor(TM), and DON’T YOU DARE ROCK THE BOAT!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Page reads:
Sorry, this content isn’t available right now
Not surprised….
Darlene wrote:
Again, I think they found them in the offal at a slaughterhouse.
No Druidic or Satanic Sacrificial Ritual needed.
And if you’re old enough to remember it, LORD OF THE FLIES instead of Bizarro World or Night of the Living Dead. With the difference that this is a DELIBERATE (or at least Extremely Clueless) ATTEMPT AT A LORD OF THE FLIES RE-ENACTMENT.
siteseer wrote:
Here is an expose of Ken Ramey’s pagan games that involve mud, blood, and dead animal parts. I encourage all to check it out.
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290647847
Victorious wrote:
Oh wow, they are probably removing my comment. There were 2 1-star comments (worst rating), mine was the 3rd, and I referenced the title of this article (you can’t post links).
Victorious wrote:
Ha!! I noticed Julie Anne posted a negative review. That must have prompted them to take the page down. Chickens! I bet they’re none too happy about the Deebs post.
okrapod wrote:
I agree. The photos of the activity that are posted there speak for themselves without any of the crackpot stuff about Druids and the like.
I think the pastor is making the hand signs because he wants to be cool and he’s seen rock stars do it, and I’m sure they have some convoluted reason they thought raw meat and mud wrestling would be a great idea for kids…
https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.websitetoolbox.com/171663/2503509
but as an onlooker you just look at those photos and say, something is way off track somewhere. I personally find the photos of children laying on their backs in the mud following these men’s directions troubling, it’s just wrong, just red flags going up in my mind.
Truly broken hearted wrote:
With themselves as Hannibal Lecter and/or Buffalo Bill.
Beaux wrote:
The Macarthur forum contains much truth from what I have seen. But if you idolize Macarthur, then get ready for a shock…
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290647847
Shauna, I am so sorry for what your son and you have had, and are having, to endure.Your son is indeed blessed to have you for his mother. Strength and healing to you both.
Dee/Deb/GBTC, moderation required – please edit out the name mentioned where marquis is quoted a few comments above, if you haven’t picked it up already.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Of course. He was a TATTLE-TALE who Rocked the Boat, and TATTLE-TALES must be Punished.
marquis wrote:
You committed the grave sin of disobeying church authority. This situation is playing out in textbook fashion.
I’m so glad you’re finally getting the chance to tell your story.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Check out this article about Macarthur’s cult.
http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/John-Macarthur-Church-Takeovers.html
marquis wrote:
“And what you have kept secret shall be shouted from the rooftops.”
— some Rabbi from Nazareth
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Not just “the grave sin” — THE UNPARDONABLE SIN.
siteseer wrote:
I have to wonder if this isn’t some sort of macho thing as part of the local culture, which puts a great emphasis on hunting. (Source: me, I went to a rural transitioning to suburban high school in north Harris County in the 1970s. Hunting was a Big Deal. But not as big a deal as when I lived in Utah in the 1990s, where the opening of hunting season was a day off from school.)
siteseer wrote:
By “hand signs”, do you mean “The Wolf’s Head” as used by headbangers (including Beavis & Buitthead) or do you mean “ME SO GANGSTA!” Gang Signs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXhu-LJf_3g
@ Victorious:
Here’s a screenshot of the reviews page on FB after Julie Anne left her comment and before it disappeared. Unfortunately, it doesn’t show JA’s whole comment.
http://imgur.com/PPZHL9y
Jack wrote:
You are absolutely right. Calvinism is a false religion and its 5 points are all unbiblical.
@ Joey U:
Sad, but not unexpected. Thanks for the link.
Anne wrote:
Did you see the games at John Macarthur’s Jr High Camp? Check out the dead animal heads here. You won’t believe it till you see it. They say Ramey was trained by Macarthur.
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/macarthurs-xchange-ministry-camp-debasing-and-degrading-young-gentiles-7695650?pid=1289522166
okrapod wrote:
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290647847
https://www.facebook.com/Lakeside-Bible-Church-148475568549394/
They have a new page up.
marquis wrote:
So on top of the trauma you and your son suffered from the perpetrator’s crime – you then had to suffer abuse from their nouthetic “counseling” (sic) – disgraceful. I bet it all had to do with not being bitter and laying guilt trips on you and your son. I hate to say this but I’m wondering if the reason the pastor was so supportive of the perp and his family is because of $$$$ money. They wanted to keep the tithes coming in from them, and you being a struggling mom wouldn’t affect the bottom line, i.e. – $$$$$ – pastor’s salary, etc.
This is a distressing account. Billie’s mother’s letter to the church was so clear and powerful as she defended her son from appalling treatment by the church.
One thing that may need clarification. When I read the title of the post I thought it was saying that John Macarther, and another man, ken ramsey, who is a nine marks supporter, both had a disturbing reaction to rape. On reading the article I saw that John MacArthur had nothing directly to do with this terrible situation (albeit there are connections with ken Ramsay.) Perhaps the way the title is worded could be changed to reflect this more clearly? I think having ken Ramsey’s name first, followed by a reference to who he supports, would be less ambiguous.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I’m pretty sure that’s all it was. marquis wrote:
Oh boy, bypo, I should have said, my former-suing pastor is a JMac fan.
Marquis: Just so you know, I called your former church and basically told them what a disgrace they are. By the way, I got the answering machine. Imagine if they get flooded with complaints by Wartburg Watchers. They need to get hit where it hurts – in the pockets – $$$$$$!!!!!
dee wrote:
Dee, Ramey is John Macarthur’s trained pastor. Macarthur’s Camp Regen, which has all the same debasing games, has been exposed as the Druid Festival of Lughnasadh. You seem to believe you know everything. Have you read this report from Watch Unto Prayer ministry?
https://watch.pair.com/macarthur-7-druid-festival.html
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Wait a minute….is there content in Ramey’s sermons that could be used against him in a civil lawsuit?
Love you darlene for that, you are amazing. It is vindication and for the first time I feel defended and cared for by those outside of this church. There are a few who have been there but this is wonderful to know that my child is finally being heard. What sweet justice and I agree calling and leaving messages is just another side of justice in this situation. Darlene wrote:
@ mirele:
Hunting? Around here it took the law to make people take the guns off their gun racks of the pickups that the male teens drove to school where we lived in the small town in a rural county. But nobody was out dancing around pig heads at some church teen retreat. I don’t know what those people were thinking, but it was highly inappropriate and downright tacky.
marquis wrote:
You don’t say. Hang in there! In the words of my former cult, “If you poke them with a stick and they respond, they’re just not dead to the flesh yet.” Haha.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I just went to this site and guess what? It has magically disappeared!!!
By the way ken took a trip recently to Singapore to speak yet again at another church. I never seen a pastor have more stamps in his passport then the ones like ken. By the way he took his son stating it was for getting time with him to serve in ministry or for him to go for that purpose. He told this to LBC prior to going and explained that the church would be paying for both of them to go. He also mentioned it being necessary to stop in Russia because that was the country you had to go through in order to get to Singapore. Big fat lie this is not true ken spent 3 days there his son sight seeing and posting it all for everyone to see on his friends list. There are posts about his son talking about getting out to the clubs in Singapore. Hmm mm what??? On the churches dime he go’s clubbing? I do not see anywhere when he is posting anything in regards to father son time it appears to be a free vacation for his adult son on church business as his posts reflect it. They can delete all they want I was already sent the pictures with the posts. By the way Russia is a new country along with singapore that has been recently added to lbc missions. Interesting, what’s that all about? Darlene wrote:
Chris S wrote:
Interesting. The description of their church says “nondenominational.” What a cover-up. They’re a Neo-Calvinist church. What deception.
No the church from what I am told was financially supporting the family. I was called bitter and angry by ken after the 2nd week of the rape. I have emails and texts where he says I need to get over it and move on. Darlene wrote:
I am and I shot back that I know of their perverted sins that I just became aware of and to back off. Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house is what I said. What has been hidden will come to light.BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
marquis wrote:
Amen, Marquis. I am so glad that the Deebs finally posted your story. Be strong and don’t let those who defend the perp-supporting “pastor” dissuade you from continuing to speak out. Never forget: God is on the side of the abused and mistreated. I have no doubt this will mold and shape your character as a Christian woman.
okrapod wrote:
Where is the information pointing to this weird behavior? On the church website?
I talked to this person and I assure you he from what I see is sincere and not crazy. He sent a letter to LBC on my behalf when this,got found out. I was able to share some of what happened ad I was given much support by mr. Johnson. Set aside some of those other things for now look at the videos and pictures he’s not crazy I see what he sees. He exposed that sermon that ken apparently tried to erase and remove. Good for mr. Johnson in taking a lot of heat in exposing Ramey. @ siteseer:
okrapod wrote:
The Watchman Wakes In Vain is a site which tells truths that are unpopular and therefore is considered “wacko” and “conspiratorial” by people who have little or no love for truth. Largely this website exposes John Macarthur with facts…and this is relevant since Ken Ramey is a Macarthurite. It would be nice for a change if people would check things before passing judgement.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
Ok. Good to know. Thank you.
Darlene wrote:
That’s exactly what the Calvinist/Dominionists want.
NJ wrote:
Can you prove an error on that site?
@ Bob J:
Did you or anybody ask MacArthur to explain himself? I am not thinking at this point that doing something really off base, which this was, necessarily has to be a sign that these people believe in paganism, just like having a historical reenactment would not mean that people actually thought they were reincarnated historical figures from the past. People make a lot of poor choices for a lot of dumb reasons.
Of course, I do not think that trick or treat on Halloween is the practice of paganism regardless of the history of the ideas of the thinning of the divide between the living and the dead or whatever. Whatever it was way back when it is not that anymore. Nor do I think that Christmas should be written off the calendar because of the history of trees and presents. And Easter-obviously a spring fertility festival to some people and basically an almost sin to participate.
I am not suggesting that those guys with the pig head did something okay, but I would like to hear their defense of why they did it.
dee wrote:
Well, I’m still waiting. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around dead animals being part of youth group activities.
marquis wrote:
I am so sorry not just for what you and your son have already been through but that the people at your former church are now attacking you or harassing you more.
I believe you and your son. Your former church and the pastor there have a lot to answer for. Their behavior is appalling.
Eagle wrote:
I’d love to hear what Phil Johnson, Macarthur’s propaganda minister, has to say.
Stan wrote:
What??
I’ve never heard of him. Is this the same guy:
Who is Paul Washer?
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2010/09/06/who-is-paul-washer-john-frye/
I’ve never read or listened to his “shocking message.”
Darlene wrote:
Neocal knows no denomination, non-denoms, reformed baptists, southern baptists, presbyterians and a few others agree on calvinism + complementarianism = real, true Christianity. It can take hold in any authority-centric church even if the rest of the denomination is different.
Darlene wrote:
Ken Ramey, just like his mentor, John Macarthur, holds youth camps where kids are lying in mud and where they are passing dead and bloody animal parts between them. The John Macarthur Cult Watch Forum has done a great job of exposing this. Check out the photos near the end of this thread here. To me this is further evidence of child abuse going on at LBC and strong evidence.
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290647847
Bob, your right and that sounds like a very logical rational question any Christian should be asking. John macarthur explain this or ken ramey explain the purpose in exposing my my child to these weird activities that do not seem to represent anything of Christ? okrapod wrote:
okrapod wrote:
This article is quite enlightening here.
https://watch.pair.com/macarthur-7-druid-festival.html
@ okrapod:
And Bob I need to say that I am wary of your propensity to observe something and then make conclusions about it without sufficient investigation. That whole druid thing–there are druids in Scotland and somebody’s ancestor was in Scotland so that potentially tells you something right there? No it does not. Example: I have a large oak tree in my back forty. I have not cut it down. I am an episcopalian. Druids and oaks go together, therefore episcopalians must be druids. That is the kind of reasoning that gives me pause-linking stuff which may not be linked at all.
@ Brad P:
I have read that. It has been referenced several times here. What does that have to do with a Carolina pig pickin’?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I absolutely believe Boz T. Once in awhile, though, a church institution does the right thing. One case with a church-related school in Washington, DC, was later held up as an example for other institutions to follow.
The school promptly investigated allegations against a teacher. He was fired and escorted from premises. This incredibly wily and cunning man faked his own suicide and fled the US but was ultimately found and prosecuted about five years later.
Concerns for the children’s safety, and plenty of transparency, helped to resolve this disgusting case. It was not handled “in house” but ended up on the FBI wanted list and on the “America’s Most Wanted” TV show. The evildoer was spotted in Nicaragua by a tourist who had seen the story and his photo.
It takes a village to find the perpetrators.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/former-beauvoir-teacher-eric-toth-to-be-sentenced-for-producing-child-pornography/2014/03/11/38fa519e-a890-11e3-8d62-419db477a0e6_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tourist-recognized-ex-beauvoir-teacher-on-fbis-most-wanted-list/2013/04/23/afc35cae-ac23-11e2-b6fd-ba6f5f26d70e_story.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/22/AR2008112201986.html
I’m behind in reading the comments. Marquis: I cannot believe the church put your son under discipline. And he wanted the D.A. to drop charges? This is egregious behavior! The more I’m reading about your dreadful ordeal, the more I am shocked that this “pastor” and “church” believe themselves to be Christians. This “church” (sic) needs to shut down.
I seem to recall someone very important mentioning a millstone, the neck, and the sea.
Man, all I can say is that on that day when Matthew 7:23 kicks in, there are some people who are gonna be real surprised, yeah, I’m talking about ramey, mahaney, and mac.
Where is the love of God and love your neighbor as yourself, in all of this?
By God’s grace, i finally gave up on mac years ago. Got rid of 90% of his stuff in the house. What’s left isn’t even used and if it is, just for historical purposes, even though he stole most of that research and never gave credit in his commentaries.
Haven’t been able to stomach his false teaching for a long time now and when he taught that one could receive the mark of the beast and be saved, that was the clincher. If you need any more proof this man is a false teacher, I guess you are waiting for God to write it in the sky. Between mac’s teaching about the blood, Christ’s incarnation/sonship, and the mark, I don’t think anyone needs to question his father is satan.
With all that said, no wonder ramey acts like he does.
Thank you sunny for your incredible support. I am just beyond grateful for this,forum and those who support my son. My hope is that all of you will someday get to see all the amazing things about him that God has gifted him with. He is truly a pure heart and cares for others. He was deeply wounded over the treatment these men gave him. It was so bad that after one of his meltdowns to the abuse he told me forget them mom they are no better than my dad, they left me to! Keep in mind Tyler jacobs, ken ramey, randy swearingen, Mike Goins these men were apart of his life since we started coming to lbc. In the worst moment of his life they did not believe him and in fact continue to call him a lier and imply that he is responsible for his own abuse. Never did they gather around him hug him tell him that they love him and that it wasn’t his fault. They never called or came by to check on him or ask how,he was. In my desperation, like a,fool I gave them unwanted updates all the time by text and EMAIL. I was foolish and under the guise that they cared. I was desperate for them to love my son and to tell him it will be ok. He was devistated by this and when we left all of them checked out for good. Could care less. My ex husband has never called but at least he has an excuse he has rejected God and admits it but these men claim to know God. They claim to be shepherds and so Christ centered so which is,worse the admitted unrepentant sinner who is honest about his,heart or the ones who claim Christ yet reject one of the little ones? You pharisees do not hinder the little ones. Shame on these men. They are father’s and you rejected the orphan Joey U wrote:
Furthermore, mac can’t even give an account of his repentance and rebirth in Christ. Come on now, if someone offered that as his testimony in mac’s house, that person would be laughed at and told to go back to discipleship class to figure out is he is even saved.
mac – a flaming hypocrite, if ever.
Here is my real question. Now that we think we can identify neo-cals and by reference perhaps even evangelicals as pagans-actual no kidding pagans-can we quit with criticizing the catholics by identifying everything they do as pagan? Or are we going to declare that christianity in america is not christianity at all, what with the catholic pagans and the evangelical neo-cal pagans and the godless liberals and compromisers and the adherents of the opposing political party of course?
By the way because I kept getting the,sense I was being punished for reporting I wrote our an 18 page bullet points report for ken siting texas,law,on child,rape,reporting and statistics. I was told to stay away from the Internet and stop looking that up. To read God’s word and not look up statistics. Stan wrote:
marquis wrote:
Marquis: Do you have a link that you can direct me to for the photos and video connected with this strange dead animals nonsense?
Daisy wrote:
The sin leveling achieves two things. As you note, it lumps in (consensual but sinful) adultery with (criminal and violent) rape.
I think the pastor’s letter also threatens everyone in the church with exposure, playing on natural fear as well as the paranoia that grows up in cult-like organizations.
The mother’s letter doubtless upset people and caused them to wonder what and whom to believe. If I were a member of this church, here’s what I would read between the lines of the pastor’s letter:See what happens when people start to talk? Why, if this one disgruntled ex-member gets away with these wild assertions, YOU COULD BE THE NEXT ONE EXPOSED. Your little one-night stand, your spouse’s bender, that night your daughter came home drunk… all of that could be the topic of somebody’s letter. Let’s all make sure to marginalize the accuser, because God knows we all have secrets. Pastor Knows Best.
It’s john macarthur chitchat forum by Bob johnson. Can you send me your email shauna.r.marquis@hotmail.com He exposed it. He did a great job by the way. VmDarlene wrote:
Daisy your one smart cookie. I’m glad you pointed that out because you are dead on right!Friend wrote:
@ Daisy:
Paul Washer preaches pure patriarchy. I think he and Voddie Baucham are twins who were separated at birth!
@ dee:
Churches having youth groups do weird, gross, or questionable things become popular starting several years ago.
Youth Group Madness
http://blogs.christianpost.com/wretched/youth-group-madness-26759/
Darlene wrote:
I remember some time ago, Janet Meffered addressed this with J D Hall and his friends:
Predators, Dangerous Deviants & J.D. Hall
http://janetmefferd.com/2015/05/predators-dangerous-deviants-j-d-hall/
It’s strange to me that secular employers have more stringent or common sense notions of who to hire when they have a job opening than churches have when dealing with child sexual assault (under which I include rape) and domestic violence.
When I’ve applied for jobs in the past, they want to know if I have a criminal background and good credit score.
Our secular legal system recognizes that not all crimes are equal. Some crimes will get you more jail time than others, for example. Or just a fine.
The secular world differentiates among severity of sin … crime – the Calvinist churches do not. So, I wonder why the Calvinist churches are so dopey about something that the Non-Christian world normally gets right?
marquis wrote:
Oh, marquis. This is reality. This paints a very graphic picture of what sexual abuse does to a victim. It is just absolutely heartless that Ken could disregard your son after being there when this was happening.
This is,only the tip of the iceberg. I have not shared the 3 1/2 hour meeting I sar through with Mike Goins who tried to bible bully mee into dropping a,small claims civil suit against the parents for 7,000 in medical bills from that night and 3,000 for further counseling. Minimal compared to actual damages. Keep in mind mike goins is an elder and was sent to handle me by ken and the other elders. They used their relationship with me and my job as leverage. It was over 3 hours of being put through emotional abuse even using their son who I loved as manipulation to get me to drop the lawsuit. They implied that he was abused leading me to believe it was sexual abuse. I said you don’t know what it’s like for your child to be raped! Mike said “As a matter of fact we do” someone hurt their son we forgave them abd,worship with them at church! This was a lie confirmed by his,wife a few days later. This was a manipulation to get me to drop it. Then he told me that I was telling Jesus Christ to go to hell because I said I would consider what he presented and wanted to pray about it but that I wasn’t dropping the lawsuit. I told him no those are not my words those are,your words and I AM NOT BLASPHEMING chirst! You are!he said yes you are I showed you 1 corinthians 6 and you are suing a believer. You are telling Jesus to go to hell. All the while he’s getting angry and yelling at me and his wife is on her knees hands clasped up to her face saying it’s shameful to sue anot her believer, shameful. Their four kids are at the door listening ages 11 down to three and I’m crying defending my son yelling back what do you mean as he says I’m bitter I need to forgive. I cry and scream what does that look like you don’t know my heart you don’t know what he did to my baby. He hurt my baby. He raped him and I lamented out loud and curled up against the wall in his office. At that point mike realized he went to far and,attempted to consol me. Darlene wrote:
Joey U wrote:
Are you and Bob J related?
Jenny wrote:
I think you are on to something here. Best to have Ken Ramey’s name bold and up front. It is possible that John MacArthur didn’t even know about Marquis and her son’s ill treatment by Lakeside Bible Church. Mind you, I’m not saying he didn’t know, rather, can it be said that MacArthur knew and didn’t care or knew and defended Ramey? At this point, MacArthur’s role in this abuse case seems to be unknown. Perhaps more evidence one way or the other will eventually be revealed.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The funny thing is, you and I being celibate adults, and therefore meeting these church’s golden standards of sexual behavior, still find these churches actions or views towards sexual assault and/or sexual sin to be weird, out of place, or uncompassionate.
@ Julie Anne Smith:
I left a google review:
“Ken Ramey, pastor of Lakeside Bible Church, tried to intervene in a rape case between two young members of his church. Even though the perp pleaded guilty to aggravated sexual assault, Ramey asked the judge to drop the charges. Fortunately, the judge has better sense than Ramey. This pastor is unqualified to care for Jesus’ sheep.
Google “Lakeside Bible Church Has a Disturbing Response to a Young Teen’s Rape” for more information.”
@ Harley:
That is very true. I was just re-reading a part of the Bible online last night. It was something about God telling David that calamity would never leave his house, and it would be a result of his adultery with Bathsheba, and having her husband set up to die in battle. God forgave David, but did not lift the consequences in that situation.
Also after the 3 1/2 hr meeting with Mike Goins a few days later I ran into his wife at the store. In this conversation she confirmed her son was never sexually abused. She also told me because we all deserve no better than hell that my son deserved to be raped. She said this twice and I stopped her. It was because I love her that I would not hold that against her. She wanted to discuss the lawsuit again and I told her no. That we would not discuss it again. A few weeks later her and Mike ask to speak to me again after I sent ken ramey and the elders a cease and desist letter. I get terminated from cleaning for them after over a year of being my customers because I refuse to discuss the lawsuit. I have the text messages exchange between both of them.
Julie Anne Smith wrote:
This theology needs some serious correcting. Paul says in one of his letters that it’s best to stay single, and says nothing about un-married (whether never married, widowed, or divorced) needing male headship.
These guys who dismiss unmarried women or who act like they can boss around an unmarried woman and behave as a husband figure or father figure are completely unbiblical. The Bible does not say didley about an unmarried woman needing a male covering.
That idea is actually pretty common in some facets of Islam, which say a woman cannot leave her home and go out in public, unless she is accompanied by a male relative.
Did these neo-Calvinist preachers not get the memo that Christianity is not Islam?
Bill M wrote:
Or possibly one and the same?
@ Patriciamc:
Argh, I’m really sorry to be a pest Dee/Deb but I know how important anonymity is in these situations. *Billy*’s real name has leaked through into this post via the quote part.
Sorry. I tend to be vigilant about things.
I meant Patricia’s post, if that wasn’t clear.
Bill M wrote:
Dee put Bob J on permanent moderation here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/02/19/wayne-grudem-staunch-supporter-of-cj-mahaney-received-money-from-sovereign-grace-ministries/
@ Patriciamc:
Aside from the health issues and apparent connotations of Satanic worship, I find the abuse of dead animals upsetting simply as someone who cares about animals.
I don’t believe in debasing animals (whether living, or their corpses), and certainly not as a form of entertainment.
I am also disturbed by incidents I’ve read about where people violate or disgraces corpses of humans.
Bill M wrote:
Dee put Bob J on permanent moderation On Feb. 24 4:47 pm in the Wayne Grudem Staunch Supporter of CJ-Mahaney etc. thread.
@ Joey U:
I’ve posted this here before (on older threads) and at Julie Anne’s blog just a few days ago – this is in regards to J Mac’s church:
Church Sued Over a Suicide Says It Will Change Training
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/20/us/church-sued-over-a-suicide-says-it-will-change-training.html
Snippet:
—-
They said Mr. MacArthur and other members of the counseling staff had discouraged him from seeking outside help and had never told them about their son’s suicidal tendencies.
They also said Mr. MacArthur made their son’s condition worse by telling him his depression was the result of sinning.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
They completely removed the ability to leave reviews.
Friend wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi8kYcl2Y38
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Englishman Ronald Hutton is *the* expert on all revivals (attempts at recreating) druids and druidry; also on the creation of Wicca and some related branches of neo-paganism.
You’re absoltely right about it all being speculative these days.
Joey U wrote:
It makes a lot of claims without documentation.
Just because there is some similarity with something else does not automatically connect the dots or mean the person intended it that way.
An event happening to fall on a certain obscure pagan day does not mean it was scheduled to purposely honor that day.
I am reminded of the old craze for listening to records backwards in order to hear the “hidden messages” – one person, I forget who, said, Heck, just listen to it forward- it’s saying “kill your parents”! -There are plenty of issues with John MacArthur’s teaching and it’s fruit without trying to make him into a pagan Druid. Keep in mind that some symbols and ideas are reused over and over in history for no particular reason.
In reaching too far, you lose the audience of thinking people who expect journalistic accountability.
okrapod wrote:
Well, actually, I thought it was a bit along the lines of glorifying hunting, but now I am of the opinion that it has more of a Lord of the Flies feel to it. (Those of you who went to high school in the 1970s likely read that book.)
That said, I am pretty sure MacArthur and his minions are not into psuedo-pagan nonsense like celebrating Lughnsadh. For MacArthur and those who have been trained by him, it’s all about power, and using that power to push their favorite doctrines. If people get trampled in the process, It’s God’s Will. But they’re not pagans, I’m pretty sure of it. Trying to make MacArthur, etc., into pagans is just nutbar conspiracy theory and avoids the very real problems in those organizations these men lead, which is that people are spiritually and emotionally abused in the name of God.
Joey U wrote:
The Watchman Wakes In Vain has all the hallmarks of a conspiracy theory site. There is plenty to criticize MacArthur and his followers on without going off the deep end and accusing them of paganism. It’s like a religious version of the conspiracies around the Bilderbergs, Bohemian Grove, E Pluribus Unum, the New World Order, etc., etc. It has about as much truth and relevance as Alex Jones.
@ marquis:
Honestly, it’s more like Lord of the Flies (the novel where boys stranded on an island turn savage) than *anything* that’s done in neo-pagan circles. Creepy and disgusting and twinned with animal cruelty, yes, but not “satanic,” i think.
@ marquis:
If the animals were ritually sacrificed, I’d agree that something bad (spiritually) was going on, but that doesn’t seem to be the case at this point. Very sick, though.
Darlene wrote:
Several people up thread have given two or different links to pages with the video and/or photos such as this one (scroll down this page to view photos):
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Agreed, HUG. This doesn’t seem to have ANY connection to religious rituals. Besides, whoever wrote that stuff was just cutting and pasting text and then jumping to stupid conclusions (like that bit about Lughnasa – *not* accurate at all).
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Agreed on Lord of the Flies, which isn’t exactly something I’d want a kids’ group to imitate!
@ Bob J:
Lughnasa is not a “druid festival.” And all “druids” today are play-acting. What ever the historical druids did is long since lost to history. They didn’t write anything down, although fakes that have been claimed to be druidic writings have been popping up for the past 250 years or so.
@ okrapod:
Well it’s a lot like what foxhunters (“the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable,” per Oscar Wilde) did to people on their 1st hunt – “blooding” them.
Disgusting, but certainly not satanic.
@ Brad P:
No, it is just fantasy. Sorry.
@ okrapod:
Good one, okrapod!
Just make sure you keep away from mistletoe and yew trees… 😉
@ okrapod:
I’m of German descent, and St. Boniface is said to have chopped down a sacred tree there – didn’t get leveled by the god, either. This is supposed to have led to the 1st conversions to xtianity in what is now Germany. And guess wht? They liked oak trees, too.
So, (il)logically, that must mean that the pin oak that my mom and dad planted in the front yard was an attempt at establishing a sacred tree in our yard.
Or maybe just a pretty shade tree with lovely red leaves in the fall.
You choose!
I think the bloody animal games should be saved for when dee posts about it. The comments seem to be deviating from the original post and it took a lot for billy to come forward and share his story. I’m not saying to not ask questions but this is taking away from what we intended . Can you all please consider this and remember that Billy has shown great courage in posting his rape?
Let me tell you about this area of Texas.
Montgomery is in Montgomery County of Texas, and while the county is named after the town, the county seat is Conroe, located to the North of the Houston, TX area.
Montgomery and Magnolia are the two towns located in the western sections of Montogomery County. And have always attracted, well a ” different ” type of people. Many of these folks live in these ” suburbs ” are their to live a life well, a little differently.
I know, I worked in Magnolia ISD for three years of my life.
While there, the school district had a tax rollback. Never mind the school was growing by leaps and bounds. ( during one 2 year reporting period, the school district went from a 2A to 4A district in size. It jumped over 3A which is unheard of, even today.)
The rollback was an attempt by the town’s people to try and stop people from moving into the area, by not paying for additional teachers or buildings. Many people in Magnolia, moved to Montgomery to ” escape that trash moving in.” ( Never mind the trash was often building 2-3 million dollar homes and 2-3 million dollars builds a heck of a house in Texas)
Both school districts had 40-70% turn-over in teachers each year, often for several reasons, classes with 40-50 students, better pay in neighboring Conroe or Tomball or Klein ISDs, my last year, the Supt. of Schools was indicted and was forced to resign, the charges later were dropped, the months of March and April my school had no principals. All resigned, and no one would take the job. The students had a walk out over poor conditions, lack of teachers…after three years, I left, for greener pastures.
That whole area is a mess. Go to Conroe or the Woodlands both in Montogomery County and you would not realize what is going on 15 miles to the west.
@ Victorious:
Yeah, I think “Joey U” and “Brad P” are sock puppets for Bob J. They keep linking to the same stuff, and have a similar defensive tone.
Just a hunch.
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
Indeed. 😉
Daisy wrote:
Should be the other way around, since Calvinism has been described as “The Islamization of the Reformation”.
Darlene wrote:
As of now, It Never Existed, Comrade.
Dee… Every time you bring ANOTHER story like this to light. I am simply stupefied at how these folks all they want to do is CYA. Though this pastor could of not prevented this(and I may question that, there is no way this offender just woke up that morning wanting to do this, someone knew something somewhere) HE SURE COULD OF facilitated healing and protection for this family. This is so sad on some many levels.
Darlene wrote:
Dead animals were a part of my youth group activities growing up in wild wonderful West Virginia. Squirrel hunting!
Stacy, I found out that they knew this kid had problems. He had a pornagraphy problem all different types of porn, he and his step father had to be separated during a grow group because they both were ready to fist it out. When his mother walked in the house that night before the police came she told me “whatever has to happen ,happens”. She not once said he didn’t do it I don’t understand how he could do this? She didn’t say anything after that! She walked out. His mother knew A.Stacy wrote:
Joey U wrote:
And people wonder why I am so against any acceptance of even partial sharia courts. A dangerous precedent.
numo wrote:
Lughnasadh is a greter Druid sabbat and according to http://www.druidry.org, “The Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids,” Lughnasadh is a Druid Festival and this fact is beyond debate.
http://www.druidry.org/druid-way/teaching-and-practice/druid-festivals/lughnasadh/deeper-lughnasadh
Darlene wrote:
These are some good links:
http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/Ken-Ramey-Muddy-and-Bloody-Games.html
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290647847
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/macarthurs-xchange-ministry-camp-debasing-and-degrading-young-gentiles-7695650?pid=1289522166
http://www.watch.pair.com/macarthur-7-druid-festival.html
@ marquis:
Hi, Marquis. oh, i wish for every comfort, boatloads of peaceful peace, every healing thing. i’d bring you home-made pies if i was in your town — I’d ask God/jesus/holy spirit to lend his/their hand(s) to mine as i rolled out the piecrust, laid it in the pie plate, crimped the edges, attempted a lattice top, and together we’d bring you a warm-out-of-the-oven pie made with tons of love.
++++++++++++
I hope there is restitution for you. I hope these horrendous wrongs are made right.
++++++++++++
…and let me get this straight — Ken Ramey said in no uncertain terms, in English, and audibly, that your son was under discipline??
Ken never said it, he just did it! I did not realize at the time that we were under church discipline. I had never experienced it in my life. elastigirl wrote:
marquis wrote:
This nightmare just gets worse and worse. This is inhuman.
Lydia wrote:
Sharia of any type (Islamic, dominionist, etc.) in these United States? Not on these shores not ever. I’m with ya’ on that one Lyds.
siteseer wrote:
Don’t think this is Druidic? Maybe I am conservative but I don’t understand the connection of this kind of festival with Christianity. What Biblical lesson are they trying to teach through all of this? I would shun such a church where this kind of stuff goes on, I am sorry. Also there has to be a sanitation issue with the blood and dead animal parts and blood. Something doesn’t feel right regarding this.
@ marquis:
“He was attempting to gain access to us while I was in the ambulance with my son. Ken kept persisting on coming near the ambulance to talk to me when the officer said no you can’t. That Ken spoke to the mother and perpetrator and he was not supposed to. Ken told the officer he was my pastor and again persisted to come to the door of the ambulance.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think i’m going to be sick. what a ridiculous preposterous inflated sense of self this man has.
“I’m her pastor” — and that means….. what??
ken, i have news for you: You’re not all that.
as it turns out, you presuming to be “pastor” (whatever that means, and yes forever in quotes) to Shauna and her son was a destroying thing. and i think you know it (or maybe you don’t).
watching and waiting for news of something from you that is not self-centered cowardice. that what is right & just would be of higher priority than your job, your paycheck, your empire & all its trappings, your standing amongst peers*, and above all your “title”.
(*i’m sure you need new peers)
@ Mark:
I think pretty much everyone here agrees that it’s not OK, Mark.
@ marquis:
This is truly horrifying.
numo wrote:
It is sickening.
@ marquis:
I find what happened to your son and the continued spiritual abuse by the church leaders revolting. I do hope you are receiving professional counseling for your son that will promote his healing. I will be praying for you both as you continue on this journey.
This is a cult with an arrogant authoritarian pastor and rife with spiritual abuse. It is a surreal place where concepts of right and wrong are twisted. So sorry for your and Billies experience, Shauna. I can’t imagine what you have gone through. It sounds like a nightmare. I pray for your healing.
elastigirl wrote:
GAWD’s Anointed, of course.
“If you question anything I do
YOU REBEL AGAINST THE FATHER, TOO!”
— Steve Taylor, “I Manipulate”
What if the church were humble about this, admitted they hurt this woman, and apologized before God and the congregation for how they messed up? If any of them are reading this, they should listen to what I am currently listening to as I get time:
http://www.redeemersa.org/resources/multimedia/details?id=788744#.VtBmamYHPYk.twitter
But what is so horrifying about these churches or at least many of their connections- the men won’t listen to what I just shared because of the gender of the person speaking. Never mind she’s a PhD with years of experience dealing with things they are mishandling because they haven’t got a clue. I am heartily disgusted at the culture in the US that is so arrogant and blind to the freedom we have in Christ. Sin must be called out directly. Parents have a God-given responsibility to go to bat fir their kids. Their anger and grief at abuse is the right response! This church should close its doors and get help. This is serious wickedness to treat families in such a way.
And when I say in the US I am thinking of a systemic problem of fake niceness. It is a problem in many countries. But lately here I find that bullies roam free -especially in the church-while everyone’s busy being nice about it. That mentality is dangerous. There must be straight talk about sin, however much the wicked feel slighted by it.
@ Melody:
Ken Ramey of Lakeside Bible Church sounds like the Catholic church
all over again.
Tears after getting caught does not necessarily mean repentance but wanting to get out of the consequences of the crime.
@ Mark:
Mark, notto go further off-topic, but i don’t think something bad, wrong, manipulative, creepy, coercive etc. has to be synonymous with (real or imagined) religious practices, let alone the devil/capital-e Evil.
There is a big gap between how many evangelicals look at these things vs. folks in the RCC, the mainline Protestant churches, etc.
Personally, i don’t think *any* kids’ camp should be doing stuff like this, and can’t imagine it happening in, say Boy or Girl Scout camp. It’s really warped and probably indicative of psychological problems on the part of those who think it’s perfectly acceptable.
@ numo:
Otoh, sexual abuse is sexual abuse; rape is rape. There is no excuse for either. And both are violent crimes, in which one individual is asserting power over another.
numo wrote:
Numo, I really don’t believe there is a difference between how mainline Protestants , Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, or Evangelicals, including fundamentalists, would view this camp. It is despicable. I also believe that most in all these groups would view treatment of Billy and Shauna by Lakeland Bible Church as flat out wrong. This whole thing going on at LBC is newspeak and scary. It is a matter of common decency.
@ marquis:
Disgusting and disgraceful. True spiritual abuse. Instead of offering to cover the bills from the church coffers as an act of kindness and care, that elder is trying to leave you with nothing. That’s cold. Certainly not how my Jesus would respond!
@ Melody:
“And when I say in the US I am thinking of a systemic problem of fake niceness. It is a problem in many countries. But lately here I find that bullies roam free -especially in the church-while everyone’s busy being nice about it.”
+++++++++++++++++
perhaps it’s different where you live, but I would like to cast my vote of confidence in the culture where I live. i’m proud of it, actually. proud to live where I do. proud to be a citizen.
I find it to be quite healthy (not perfect of course, but valuing what is honest and straightforward, sincerity, kindness, compassion, genuinely trying to do what is right, responsibility both personal and corporate, etc.). Nothing fake about it.
Church culture is what gets the unhealthy badge. Good things can come of it, but a very psychologically unhealthy place. Some more than others. And I have now succeeded in stating the obvious here.
@ Mark:
Despicable and abusive, but not “druidic.” That’s what i was trying to say.
Anne wrote:
This freaks me out good & proper. As a Senior Youth Worker with 22 years at the coal face, 15 of them also as a Church Youth Worker I’d like a not-so-swift word with those staff to see just what they thought they were doing, what their intended outcomes were…. it’s mind boggling.
Contrast this with my entirely secular youth club, where you will now hear the young people ( male & female)say to each other as they play pool ‘that’s my body, you need my permission’ or variations of it as they mess around, after me having a serious word with lads who were talking about the colour of the young women’s knickers. They say it partly in jest, but something is also hitting home about their rights to their own physical selves, & their right to speak out. Flipping good thing as we have a local child sexual exploitation issue.
marquis wrote:
I think Marquis has just coined a new term “bible bully”. This is just an awful way to treat the vulnerable mother of an abuse victim. According to her comment, she was employed by this man as a house cleaner, that adds another layer of diabolical, manipulative, emotional pressure put on her by an “elder” and his wife.
JeffT wrote:
Wherever you have things that are real and valuable, you also have cheap counterfeits. A “repentant” paedophile (specifically, one that’s been caught and is having to apologise in the right manner) can be held up as “evidence” of the “transforming power” of reformed doctrine. That’s why “repentance” has to be made so cheap for these people – if you set the bar higher, it would expose the fact that their dogmas have a form of godliness but no power.
Rather like hard-line pentecostalists (specifically, people who believe you can’t be saved unless you speakintongues) crowding round a person and praying for them noisily until they are persuaded to make a silly noise, which is then celebrated because they’ve been “filled with the spirit”. Or fictitious / exaggerated claims of healing or other miracles.
Jesus transformed people’s hearts and minds, healed people, and – following his ascension – filled them with his Spirit, and I’m fully persuaded that he has never intended to stop doing so, and has not stopped doing so. Which makes the counterfeits all the more dangerous and damaging, because for everyone who is misled into accepting a falsehood, there’s someone else who spots the counterfeit but is thence misled into rejecting the real thing too.
I wanted to bring up one thing that I think often gets missed in these situations. First I am sorry what happened to Shauna and Billy, I wish it never did. It is just how devastating Dyslexia can be to a person. I was diagnosed with auditory / visual dyslexia when I was young and it had a profound effect on my life. My vision was already very poor and the learning disabilities made it very hard to learn to read, write, speak and even walk at times. In my sixth year I almost burned to death in a fire and spent many months in the Hospital and in recovery and that to had an effect on me. It should not have, or at least, that is what church taught me, but it did. What I learned from the faith is basically, you have it coming and if you were stupid enough to get burned you deserve it. I do not disagree with that statement on an emotional level because that is so cemented into you as a follower of Christ is that you should not ever need, ever, no matter what.
But all that aside in very practical levels it is totally devastating, first and foremost, at least, a church, everyone thinks you are faking it to get attention, even if you hide it and don’t want attention you are seeking attention. It is not one of the accepted “disabilities” so it is more of a character / moral failing most likely a deception from Satan to cause bitterness etc. But the utter frustration of trying to stay up with the pack, do good in classes, read well, respond quick, finish, go in for the big win play sports well etc. I did not do well at that and even to this day it brings one an overwhelming sense of shame on some level. I have come to understand that much of this is meant to keep one down, manipulate and “sin leveling” to take your eye of how screwed up they were. Now my salvation was my utter cynicism and distrust I inherited from my mother and along with help online and in personal relations I have found some peace from this. But I write this to point out what this young man needs to deal with on top to what happened to him. It took all my personal will to overcome dyslexia and other learning issues I had/have dealt with.
At times, it feels like you are drowning and can even be physically painful because one has to use so much energy to focus so you can answer the question fast enough or keep up with the discussion and not make a mistake of any kind. Another gift from my membership in the Christian religion. What amazes me about the “Gospel” industry leaders is this entire personal responsibility persona they blabber on about, yet to a person all of them pass the buck, deflect, blame, accuse, drum beat the conspiracy theories, and play the persecution card at the drop of a hat. John McCarthur and Al Mohler are often held up as these intellectual giants battling the elite intelligentsia when they are the very same. Google John McCarthur on Larry King concerning evolution and realize when Depok Chopra is the sanest sounding person on the tv show one must wonder.
Yes, and I have the text messages to show this is exactly what they did because they actually put it in text. siteseer wrote:
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
A Boy Scout leader taught my son and others in the troop how to bird hunt, and we got invited to the cook out of the birds. It was somewhat disquieting since a couple of the birds were not dead but only wounded. But in the long run I am glad that somebody in the family has some prior exposure of how to do it, considering the possibility of economic SHTF. But this was not religious, it was Scouts. It was not pagan or satanic or sadistic; it was survival training.
And I did not do my thing with the chickens when I was a child in honor of some force of nature or pagan gods. I sold food during WWII rationing, for crying out loud.
The youth group guys with the pig’s head were wrong and brought a lot of discredit to themselves. I do not see any evidence however for concluding that a pig’s head at some youth group idiocy means that masons are druids or the anybody is worshipping strange gods. And inferring that if somebody’s ancestry is from Scotland then that means potentially really bad stuff about them-somebody needs to rethink that idea because it is bigotry.
Pam Palmer wrote:
It’s blackmail …. Lowdown, dirty, blackmail, in the name Of God, of course.
You are right! Also I am still getting nasty texts from these neo cal supporters of Ken. Of course it’s his wife Jan Koch, her husband is in leadership(Rusty Koch) so he let his wife send me a nasty text for the both of them calling me a Troll(okay, whatever that is). Fred and Zuma Brinkman did the same he let his wife send me a nasty text. Lori Carlson her husband KY Carlson let his wife send me a nasty text to. Keep in mind these people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. I am aware of dirty little secrets that tie to the topic at hand in abuse and perverted ways. Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Considering what marquis said about the look that Joe gave Billy, I don’t believe that Joe is repentant or sorry, except maybe sorry he got caught.
Even when a person truly is repentant for some sin or crime they have done, that only means that the victims should work towards forgiving them – which, in some cases, may take a long time. It does not mean that the perpetrator should not pay for what the have done, socially and financially. It does not mean that the victim should put him/herself in a situation that would make it possible for the perpetrator to repeat the offense. Forgiving someone does not mean that you have to trust them. Forgiveness does not negate justice. Forgiveness does not mean protective measures should not be taken to prevent the assault from being repeated.
@ Melody:
I see it in government, he school system and other places. People are scared to deal with or even bring up real serious problems for fear of being labeled and ostracized.
His perpetrator nor his parents ever apologized for raping my son his parents never offered anything except call my son a lier and a homosexual knowing what their son is. I have about 7,000 in medical bills and are they taking care of it? NOPE! !!! Also remember this 15 yr old threatened Mt sons life if he screamed out to me and I was in the living room. My baby was saving his own life by not screaming and possibly mine. History has been children rape victims have ended up dead at the hands of teens who do this. This was not this teens first time how could it be? Normally the psychology is kids work up to an act like that. Even the detectives did not believe it was his first time. Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
So… “Bible blackmail” along with ‘Bible bully’?
Two comments approved. Although I am not a supporter of John MacArthur’s theology as being lived out at Lakeside Bible Church, he is not a Druid. (And people wonder why I protect my cell phone number?)
marquis wrote:
You are doing the right thing by making this public. Sunlight is the best disinfectant and even healing. No reason to hide their response to your situation. They are most likely not dealing with a son rapped by church member. I would not expect their empathy or support. It is not who they are in Christ.
I am not sure why the husbands need to “let” their wives send them as I would think they are grown women who can make the decision themselves, right? Or perhaps the patriarchy at that church is quite pronounced. Which is why as a single mom perhaps your standing in their world is less than in their eyes. That is typically how patriarchy works.
I apologize for the misspelling!
marquis wrote:
This is unacceptable. Please document every time they try to get you to discuss the lawsuit. Date, time place, etc.
I do not know what the tentacles of that church are in your community but have you discussed the situation with his school? I would be aware they might try to talk to your son to see what he knows. They are not above using kids in these situations as I well know from my experiences with such types.
@ marquis:
This is where an advocate would come in very handy. That meeting should not have happened and if it did, you should have had an advocate there taking notes and stepping in. We stay with facts. We don’t go into interpretations of whether or not a lawsuit is “biblical”. We do not allow them to “define”. It is nothing but an attempt to bully and deflect.
You do not need to be the one held to a higher standard than them. But that is what they are trying to convince you. You and your son are the traumatized parties. Not them. They are attempting to traumatize you further and manipulate you. They have no conscious. I would not allow my dog to eat with them.
mirele wrote:
Ain’t that the truth!
@ Beakerj:
” ‘that’s my body, you need my permission’ or variations of it …. their rights to their own physical selves, & their right to speak out.”
++++++++++++++
this is great, Beakerj!
Muff Potter wrote:
Yes, yes, yes….
okrapod wrote:
Absolutely. Well put. For what it’s worth, I am of Scottish descent (on my dad’s side). I’m also a Freemason – ironically enough, I am York right, not Scottish rite! And anyone who thinks Masonry is anything more than a social club or has any tie with Druidism is just ignorant. You don’t need a tin-foil hat to find many of JMac’s actions (especially as regards money) distasteful.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
York rite? Oh no, that means you are a heretic! :o)
JMac was the first pastor I ever heard declare the American Revolution was unChristian. That was years ago when I heard him speak on some radio station. I thought the guy was nuts. Later, his teaching on gender roles was something medieval. I even saw Phil Johnson, his minion, teach on Pyro that his wife would not give an answer to a man she ran into at the grocery concerning any doctrine even salvation. And he insisted that she was well versed to do so but it would be inappropriate for a woman to do.
Masters Seminary turns out the same type of thinking.
Those guys are nuts enough without having to add pagan rituals to the mix.
When I was still attending church, I was always disturbed by the teaching that all sin is equal in the eyes of God. (In my experience, most fundie churches teach this.) In other words, they see no moral difference between the boy who talks back to his parents and the boy who rapes.
In one of the last bible studies that I ever attended, my bible study teacher actually said that the little white lie he told his wife about her weight (to spare her feelings) was as sinful to God as the Sandy Hook shooting. I was stunned.
I don’t know how churches can believe this teaching without overreacting to minor issues and/or underreacting to serious ones, as in this case. I wonder if that is part of the problem here.
Anyway, great article. Thanks for speaking out about this despicable situation.
Yes, I agree! Now I have informed these members individually of the post that Dee just did. I was not rude and I did let each person know that it was a,one time text/email and gave a,screen shot of Dee’s post on Billy. I doubt Ken Ramey would let any church member know about it for obvious reasons and to not give him an edge on who I have informed I sent members/former members the copy. Keep in mind ken is still publically continuing the attack on billy with his awful letter!!! Therefore as Billys mother and advocate I have every right to respond and inform members prior and current of these blatant cleverly deceptive lies by KEN RAMEY!!!! Since even former members are still connected and have been privy to these FALSE LIES and accusations against BILLY!!!!! I did respond back to each of these people and I put them on notice that I would make their nasty attacks public with their names first and last and that I will begin to unleash the dirty secrets at LBC which ken has do masterfully swept under the rug over a 15 year period! Just know that Billy is not the first person to be abused by a member. The other stories are not mine to tell at this point and I will respect those victims privacy as they have a right to it. My hope is that by taking a stand here with billy that others will see the healing in this and have the support they need to come forward. I already believe them to be courageous. In the meantime there will be no reason for me to expose other stuff on what ken has hidden from members if they continue to push. My hope is that he will come clean because the truth is on bilkys side and according to the,state of Texas , his perpetrators plea deal, the Montgomery County police department, and the District Attorneys office of Conroe billy has been vindicated and documented as a crime victim not a perpetrator!!!!!! Or anything else bit a child victim. So ken ramey you need to make this right along those involved in perpetrating the lies about me and my son, billy! I also need you all to know that there are many wonderful Christians who attend LBC who do not share kens treatment of my son. I have also been receiving supportive texts from them and they were unaware of how billy has been treated. They are opening their eyes to what’s going on in whooville and I have no doubt they will either leave or stand up to this corporation as everything about LBC is set up as a cooperation while disquised as a church. Check it out everything about it being set up this way is,a corporate structure. The members don’t own the church ken and the elders do. Its worth millions by the way. Check it out millions and they Lydia wrote:
numo wrote:
I think there is a difference, but just how big difference I am not sure. I don’t know about the catholics on this, but just judging from my years with conservative protestants (free will baptists after leaving SBC) and my years with moderate/liberal protestants (first methodist and then episcopalians) I believe that quite possibly neither group really realizes how different they are in some basic ways of seeing things.
I agree with Mark that nobody would be thinking that the goings on at the camp were okay, certainly, but I also think that differences are definitely there. The fundamentalists are more apt to see some things as pagan or satanic, and the moderates are more apt to see some things as just ill advised or highly inappropriate or just basically out of control. In my experience there tends to be a different level at which one is actually appalled about something.
And sad to say it looks like the opposite when it comes to sexual assault. The moderates would certainly be appalled at what has happened to Billy and his mom, but it looks like some in the fundagelical neo-con camp mostly want to do cover ups and victim harassment.
Theological differences between these groups are profound and significant.
@ Libby:
Sin leveling is definitely part of problem here, combined with the view that no one is innocent in the complicity of sin. So the victim of a crime can be viewed as also involved in the sin. The rape victim is as responsible for his or her rape. The murder victim is responsible for his or her murder, because they must have done something to bring it on. Maybe the supported Gay marriage and that Tornado devestated their neighborhood. They deserved it because of their sin. I don’t know? I type a question mark because on the one hand one of the great hopes of Christianity is that we may all be sinners but we aren’t under Mosaic Law anymore. I understand that in our human frailty we can turn to God in Christ and ask for absolution and all is forgiven, and life goes on because we are no longer slaves to sin under the Law. The sin may have been real, but we are free to change is my understanding. When I observe churches such as Lakeside Bible Church my perception is that they have leveled sin, but have also become enslaved to the whole concept of sin, and that there is little Grace in the resulting abuse and surrealism that results. Just my opinion.
Lydia wrote:
If your doctrine is submit, submit, submit, then rebels fighting for independence set a very bad precedent.
What is a mainline? can we be specific?
dee wrote:
Looked like they had unoriginally mixed their “Vikings” and “Hunger Games” memes – are they so desperate for youth camp ideas they have to use tropes from mainstream movies/tv shows? Maybe this year it’ll be something from Hannibal or True Blood or True Detective (series 1).
I think if they had pulled a baby dolphin out of the water and taken lots of selfies with it as it died (as happened in Argentina recently), I couldn’t have been more disturbed. It shows an absence of respect and a lack of dignity given to animals and to me a strong departure from Christian values. I’d be interested in knowing of any kids who took a stand and refused to participate. Who would expect a so-called Christian youth camp to be the place where you stood up for your values? I hope some were strong enough to do so.
I’m not seeing the purpose of camps (per se) and of ones in particular that teach diametrically opposed values to that of your family – run for the hills is my advice.
@ Lydia: Mainline Protestant are the old denominations that aren’t necessarily Evangelical or Fundamentalist. They are the United Church of Christ, the American Baptist Churches, the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Disciple of Christ, the Presbyterian Church, USA and any church that is involved in ecumenical organization of the National Council of Churches. They are considered mainline because most Protestants used to be members of these churches until the 1970’s.
@Shauna and Billy, I am glad you are getting support here – hugs to you both.
@ Melody:
hi, Melody. I hope my previous comment didn’t come off as a challenge. there is merit to what you’re saying. I’ve come to see so much good in the people in my community (small-scale & large)–I felt like cheering for them.
If I were your attorney I’d be suing for exponentially more than you’re apparently suing for.
Beakerj wrote:
I have to remind myself that the Rotherham incidents were from 1997 for a period of TEN years. Unbelievable. And yes they were, unbelieved for so many years.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Word. I think your whole comment was worth quoting, but this bit in particular really leapt out at me.
I am going to write something nice about JMac. I agree with him that we should be praying for our President and members of Congress instead of cursing them.
dee wrote:
Why in the world to some folks see fit to caricature John MacArthur when many of his teachings are bad enough. Caricature, exaggeration, wacko conspiracies just point people away from the real and actual dangers of John MacArthur’s beliefs and teachings. There really is no need for straw men here. The truth is bad enough.
Lydia wrote:
Wiki has actually quite a list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant
I do not think that mainline is the correct dividing line any more. The differences are now not so much ethno-cultural as when the word was first used but rather the differences are moderate/liberal vs conservative/fundamentalist/pentecostal. Theology, social theory and politics are significant variables.
Lydia wrote:
Patriarchy and Complementarianism infantalize women. I wouldn’t doubt that these women ask permission from Daddy….er….servant/leader husband for all kinds of things. Remember, they don’t live or act as though they are equal with their husbands – or men in general.
@ Mark:
Well, there are 3 on that list alone where I have seen or am personally aware of several of the horrors we discuss and cover up over the last 10 years. One of them multiple horrors and cover up.
@ okrapod:
That is what I was thinking but even then the lines keep blurring.
Lydia wrote:
Excellent advice, Lydia! Marquis, remember to document, document, document everything – every conversation, phone call, text, email, etc. They are the kind of people who will stop at very little to attempt to manipulate you into doing what they want – and think that it is God leading them. That is a scary combination!
@ Mark:
Disagreement is not cursing someone. JMac is big on obeying gov authority from the pulpit even though he was jailed during the civil rights movement before he got so much power. He totally misses the evolution of Romans 13.
@ Darlene:
She can copy the text to her email with the specifics like date, time, sender phone, etc. Phones have a way of deleting texts or being lost and are not reliable archiving for documentation.
@ Lydia: I have encountered imprecatory prayer. This is kind of beyond disagreement. I never discuss politics because I don’t have the answers and I want to remain open to all views, So I can come up with the best answers at the ballot box. I do pray for our leaders.
Darlene wrote:
Yep. but if one believes God is leading them then that does not work! My goal is pew sitters stop believing the lies like I did at one time. Wouldn’t the Jesus Christ we know love truth? Would He enable evil? He said not to be like the “religious” leaders. He said expose evil.
Law Prof wrote:
This! Yes! Such as for pain and suffering, not just medical bills.
They apparently have no money but the church helps them! Darlene wrote:
Mark wrote:
“O GREAT CHEMOSH! O GREAT BAAL! BRING DEATH AND DESTRUCTION DOWN UPON THESE MY ENEMIES!”
— Some Fifties Cecil B DeMille Bible Epic
Darlene wrote:
I have always wondered if Patriarchy & Complementarianism have an integral Pedophile angle. After all, besides being kept as permanent dependent little girls, Patrio/Comp women function as Patrio men’s private personal sex toys.
It would explain all the Pastors in these churches who keep Pet Pedophiles as court favorites — one step removed gives Plausible Deniability if things get too hot.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Thank you HUG for comic relief.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
@ Mark:
But aren’t we supposed to be like David… a man after Gods own heart? (Wink wink, nudge nudge)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Sort of like this:
http://youtu.be/LS37SNYjg8w
Lydia, thank you for your support you all are the,best in supporting Billy. Lydia wrote:
okrapod wrote:
You don’t know much about Macarthur. None of the members of his congregation can make an appointment to speak with him. I also tried to speak to his elder board without success. Finally, I waited in a long line on a Sunday night to speak with him after his sermon. After he lied to me 3 times in one minute, I was escorted by his security to the sidewalk where I was told that if I said even one word I’d spend the night in jail.
@ Darlene:
Whoops. two comment NOT approved.
Haitch wrote:
ROFL!
Lydia wrote:
My life is one big misspell. My brain goes way ahead of my typing. I am trying to get better.
@ Lydia:
Actually I don’t discuss politics because I am left of center in the Bible Belt (maybe even that “L” for liberal) I am a lot like my uncle who was the only Democrat in a county of Republicans. I am a man but I kind of feel like that woman in that YouTube comedy. And this is terribly funny. I just don’t express myself openly because it does kind of get past disagreement where I live.
Does LBC or “pastor” Ramey have any connection with Teen Mania / Honor Academy? The pictures of the bizarre-dead-animal-mud-thing are more than a bit reminiscent of Honor Academy’s much-reviled “ESOAL” and “Unreached People Groups LTE” which involved hazing-type activities in the mud and simulated paganism role-play. (Not actual pagan worship but some of the teens played the roles of pagan tribes who the others tried to convert… long and twisted story.) I’ll spare you the possibly off-topic links but a quick Google search will reveal many suspiciously similar pictures.
@ Mark:
No problem. Most liberals think I want people to starve and all Muslims dead because I disagree as a libertarian with most big gov solutions and political correctness. I am used to it.
Eric P. wrote:
Oh, wow, a quick look on youtube shows you to be quite correct.
Ken Ramey is doing damage control damage control damage control in his sermon this morning! Can someone here go to LBC website go under resources then click on sermons and listen to today’s message and please tell me if I’m hearing him right! Major 180 on his position on counseling
@ dee:
Once again, TWW on point. Spelling? Non-issue. LOC (Least of concerns).
Ken is doing DAMAGE CONTROL this morning please someone go to LBC and check his sermon on today out and tell me if I’m listening wrong????? Pam Palmer wrote:
One thing that really stands out to me is that since this didn’t occur on church property or with a church employee, the church’s involvement should be minimal. Maybe offer to pray with each family, be emotional support at hearings, and if they were a normal church, volunteer to recommend qualified counselors, but that’s it. In this case, people keep butting in. There’s almost a desperation here. Are they scared that something else will be uncovered? As for the youth games, I’m so not a conspiracy theorist, and I think real, true-blue worshippers of Satan are few and far between, but someone somewhere has nefarious intentions because it’s so not normal to dance around cut up animal parts and smear blood on each other, etc. Is there a subtle threat to the children being communicated with these games? Anyway, the games help to see just how unhealthy the culture of this church is.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Integral pedophile angle, I’ve wondered that myself.
marquis wrote:
Oh, I was an idiot 10 years ago. If I had known then what I know now about their schemes using the Bible/ Jesus……..things would have gone very differently!
Years ago we left a church that seemed to shelter a pedophile. One week we read in the news about a pedophile who was facing conviction and jail time – who was also an elder or deacon in our church. The activity had not occurred in the church and it was violating 10-12 year old boys. That Sunday in church, that same guy was seeking out all of the young boys to mow his lawn. When we spoke with the pastor, he said the pedophile elder was forgiven as far as the church was concerned, so business as usual. Wow. We completely disagreed and saw a danger in that this guy was now seeking out boys in the church. No one would listen to us. We left the church. Since then, we have seen that pastor periodically. He has lost his church through various church politics (fortunately or unfortunately).
When we read about those “Done” with the institutional church, or those who are “None” (no longer in the faith), one wonders if there are more occurrences like this one.
Feeling we had no voice, we voted with our feet and our wallet and our activity, never returning to this church.
@ Haitch:
Unfortunately they are all over the shop, I was part of a group breaking a smaller situation up about 10 years ago. When I first saw the Rotherham situation I asked where the Youth Workers were, because we’re often a first point of disclosure. Turns out Youth Workers knew at least 12 years before it was busted wide open, they told safeguarding at their local authority & the result? They had their access to vulnerable young people limited. Shameful.
Darlene wrote:
It is bad enough getting the followers to question their leaders. If some critics sound like whackos, then adherents lumped all critics together. It ends up being used as a reason adherents stay in their make believe world where their leaders are godly men. I had originally used the word excuse, but changed it to reason, there is no excuse for following or funding some of these despots.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This explains A LOT!!!
dee wrote:
What do you mean, Dee? Did I write something that is not approved or are you referring to the Conspiracy Crazy stuff some folks are posting?
Patriciamc you hit out some very valid points! There was no reason for Ken Ramey and these men to butt in to the extent they did even going as far as violating the order of protection (which ken was present at this,teens bond hearing ) that was a primary condition of him being released to his parents. So he is allowed back at church knowing we would be there? Under the watchful eye of his mother??? They couldn’t even obey a protective order 1 week after being bonded out!!!! The questions should be the why’s Patriciamc wrote:
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
In other news,hot off the press from the 9Marx mailbag, the second reader needs advice about the wife of a repentant adulteter. The elders are caring for him and he’s growing, but she needs some space and time, so she is attending other gospel churches for awhile. So what to do? Be patient, or discipline her for non-attendance? In Leeman’s response, he eventually recommends patience but says a whole bunch more which reveals the 9Marx mindset— http://9marks.org/article/mailbag31/
Perhaps the practice of “covering”, with a hierarchical pyramid, actually serves to cover up and silence the voices of those on the lower tiers who witness, rather than having the top tiers protecting those below them in the hierarchical pyramid.
Dave A A wrote:
The husband is unfaithful and they are talking about how he can regain his “authority”, yup, that’s the ticket.
Beakerj wrote:
I have no words Beaks, just incredible anger.
I’ll answer with some words on a related issue – those at the Beebs and the Rotherham local authority (etc etc) who were in positions of authority and paid big $ for their role – how come there is seemingly no accountability or responsibility once you’ve climbed the corporate ladder? They’re teflon. In this age of social media, I’m all for naming the person, the job description, and the pay scale. Then adding in what happened under their watch. We need to do more of it, real time.
We all have to do performance ratings now, we have to add in outcomes and our contributions to our job roles on our resumes in this global competitive workforce.
Yet those in “leadership” positions seem to sail unhindered in a non-accountability ocean. ref: James Murdoch, ref: the Captain of the Costa Concordia, ref: the Rotherham local authority, ref: the situation you describe – this is a very long list.
#one drum I won’t stop banging about…
JYJames wrote:
I think you nailed it. I still haven’t worked out in my mind why they rush to support the perpetrator/s and marginalise or sideline the victims – and being very general, this is occurring both inside and outside of the church. Perhaps it’s because the victim’s side isn’t usually conveyed straight away, or perhaps folks want to lazily make an instant assessment, or perhaps it’s because as I believe, most people are pursuing a comfortable life and don’t want uncomfortable facts to intrude… (am just thinking out loud, not stating a hard and fast opinion)
I’ve been out and about and just now catching up on this post and the comment thread. I have nothing else to contribute, except this Scripture: “Jesus wept.”
JYJames wrote:
I, too, think you’ve nailed it.
I wonder whether we can initiate a trope of some kind here, whereby the unbiblical concept of “covering” is accurately re-named “smothering”. It would be quite fair, accurate and not misleading to accomplish this simply by replacing, without comment or fanfare, the word “covering” with “smothering” on each occasion it is discussed.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
= “covering”.
As opposed to speaking truth to power.
Haitch wrote:
If we assume that they are lovers of Jesus or just plain ordinary human beings who are neither followers of Jesus nor particularly against Him, their behavior makes no sense at all. We are left with an endless string of “perhaps” as we try to understand such bizarre behavior.
However, if we assume that they derive sadistic pleasure from victimizing followers of Jesus and, at the end of the day simply hate Jesus with spitting contempt, then their actions make absolutely perfect sense, everything falls precisely into alignment, hand in glove. I do not know what they are, God knows, but I do know what they act like, and I don’t need to know much more than that.
Beakerj wrote:
It’s about tackling a systemic issue.
Similarly, turns out anthropologists knew for many years of the child and adult sexual abuse happening in Indigenous communities here and turned a blind eye (I’m both an advocate for and strong critic of anthropology). There was some reportage in the media of individual horrific cases, but it took a local crown prosecutor to say enough is enough and speak out to the media. I have to put a trigger warning on this interview due to graphic descriptions http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1639127.htm but this initiated the “Little children are sacred” report and the political response of the Commonwealth govt Intervention (I shan’t say any more about outcomes/effects as my cynicism will take over).
Law Prof wrote:
I think you busted my mind open a little with that comment, I had honestly never considered that before. I’m just like, óh, oh oh’ at the moment, my brain is doing backflips. I had always thought of “them” as doing harm in God’s name – but still thinking they believed as Christians, followers of Christ etc. Just, “wow”. I’m a bit slow aren’t I?
Jesus said that false prophets would fool many, that they would turn away from the faith and grow to hate others, that evil would increase and love grow cold.
Is that not the very image of what we’re seeing in these churches? We can’t say we weren’t warned.
Law Prof wrote:
Thank you for your courage. None of it makes sense in light of Jesus Christ. That has been the mind boggler for me over the years.
But then Jesus Christ was not about authority and control. Even though He could have been.
@ Haitch:
I am astounded at what I read at that link.
Marquis – a doctor of mine, many yrs ago, also suffered from dyslexia. He has so many degrees it’s hard to list. Your son will do many great things. I was once told that my son, who has Aspergers would never accomplish or amount to anything. He graduated from Texas A&M and has his Masters from there. Don’t believe anything someone says negatively about your son. My own son has come a long ways thru many many prayers. I believe the same thing for Billy.
I live a couple of hours northeast of you. I know the area you are talking about. East Texans can be a strange group of people. But also can be the best and kindest you have ever known.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The Apostle Paul said to avoid the appearance of evil. They allow evil acts to be committed, then try to cover those acts. Thereby, they try to avoid the “appearance” of evil, but not evil itself.
Bill M wrote:
I struggled to choose one Leeman lowlight. This one’s pretty special: “It’s hypothetically possible in my mind that this woman has never liked her husband and has always despised the church and is secretly glad he was unfaithful because it’s giving her an excuse to get away from both.” Just hypothetically, of course– except he’s talking about a real person.
@ Dave A A:
They do think like that. I have heard it many times about women who won’t reconcile after abuse or infidelity. Mr. “Keys” Leeman puts it out there as a hypothetical which is a step but a step that was totally unnecessary. It is one way to turn her into the real sinner because they are the ones looking after the husband.
I wonder if false teachers know that they are false teachers. Do those who hate Jesus know that they hate Jesus or is this something that they do not realize? Does anybody have any thoughts on that?
Dave A A wrote:
Attack the messenger, the one who speaks truth to power.
Thank you so much for your encouragement Harley. I have been told he's many things even that he won't go any further than a tech school. So angering by the way because he is so bright so creative. He has wanted Texas A&M since we left College Station when he was ending 3rd grade. My son was held back 2xs in his elementary years when he should have gone forward but emotionally he couldn't handle moving into Jr. High after he was raped.
Everyone agreed that it would have further set him back with the trauma alone that he suffered. I thank God for an amazing principal and school district that walked my son through that time and removed his perpetrator from school as a result of his pleading guilty to child rape. He was able to thrive in spite of it and a major shout out to Safe (ed.) Harbor in Conroe Texas. Putting him back in school was hard as I was bullied by ken and the leadership to do it.
This will come out later just know that whatever intentions they had for billy backfired given that they are a homeschooling driven church! For some reason we didn't fit that bill, and they pushed for me to not homeschool billy but put him in public school system. Anyways, my hope for him is that he achieves college or whatever it is God has in store for him. He wants to be an engineer and let me tell you he has the aptitude even with the dyslexia. Smart beautiful boy….
Harley wrote:
SAFE HARBOR I MEANT TO SAY IN THE LAST POST ABOUT TEXAS A&M AND MY SON. MAJOR SHOUT OUT TO MONTGOMERY SCHOOL DISTRICT from 6th -8th grade
Actually I thought Leemans’s response was very good. Carefully reread the whole answer. I thought the first question about healthy Eldership much more problematic @ Dave A A:
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Quoting my late father: “Squirrel is good eatin’.” And he hunted squirrels as a kid to put meat on the table.
Back on the subject: the more Shauna reveals about the aftermath of Billy’s sexual assault, I keep having to pick my chin up off the ground. I mean, a three-plus hour meeting to stop a small claims case, where the abuser did wrong and caused hospital bills? Was Shauna supposed to just eat those, in the name of Christian love and forgiveness? Seriously, I can’t even stop facepalming.
@ Leslie:
Yes, I carefully read it. Perhaps my problem is I have read too much of Mr. “Keys” Leeman views on doctrinal and church governance matters.
Beakerj wrote:
Rotherham is another situation where people were silent because of political correctness and didn’t want to be labled as racist.
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marquis wrote:
Shauna, this message is for your son. I hope that you will find it worthy of sharing with him.
Dear young man, your story has deeply touched me. I applaud your courage in standing up for yourself. People who should have deserved your trust harmed you instead, and they are still trying to hurt you. I am sorry for that, and oh how I wish I could stop them!
Here’s what I can do. I can assure you that many people care about you. I have not had the privilege of meeting you, but I very much hope and pray for your strength and healing. My life brings me into daily contact with teenagers, and they fill me with awe and admiration. You are growing and learning and changing so quickly. As difficult as this time is, the difficulties will eventually pass, and you will emerge as a man of integrity. Because of this awful experience, you will have a deeper understanding of yourself and others. You will be more capable of love and kindness.
It’s absolutely not a fair trade, but people do learn from suffering. Let me repeat: it’s not a fair trade.
Please know that you have friends here, people who care what happens to you, people who want the very best for you and your mother. Many of us are praying for you, and for justice.
You are precious.
Burwell Stark wrote:
Wow. What a difference 24 hours can make. Today, I lost that fight…through the influence of a Southeastern College student and a seminary grad/Gospel TM clone, 9 Marks took hold of our little church.
I truly believe it will finish the church off. However, we are not looking for a new fellowship – outside the SBC (finally!).
@ Leslie:
He does say several good things and clearly gave it a lot of thought, But don’t you think he could better have said something like, “Discipline? Are you kidding? That should be reserved for serious sins, like adultery, for example.”
Burwell Stark wrote:
Very, very sorry to hear this. Some friends of ours recently left a little church because it was taken over by 9Marks, like us, they are taking a break from formal church attendance. We attended twice with them and I was amazed at the smug arrogance of the painfully young pastor at their church, he has all the looks of one who is going to abuse a lot of people before he finally is ruined himself.
Yes, it likely will finish off your church as well as our friends’ former church, but if people don’t have any better sense than to allow this stuff in, actions and inactions have consequences. Sorry that more wouldn’t listen to you.
Burwell Stark wrote:
It’s time to walk away, Burwell Stark. The handwriting is on the wall. Your church will follow the pattern of the 9Marx industrial complex. Leave before you find your heart breaking more than it is now.
Dave A A wrote:
Dave is quoting Leeman above.
Leeman may be partially correct.
A woman may be trapped in an abusive marriage by her husband and by her church that tells her she can’t leave except in the case of adultery.
This makes adultery her “get out of jail free” card.
She probably liked her husband at one time or would have never married him. But marriage became a trap due to misinterpreting the Bible. She may have wanted him to be unfaithful so she could get the heck out of Dodge.
@ okrapod:
I wonder about this, too. I think some wolves are keenly aware of their wolfishness and are in it for the money, celebrity and power (Elmer Gantry). But I think the majority of false teachers believe they are true teachers. The problem is they preach a different gospel from a different (small c)hrist that they invented themselves. Their teachings do not line up with “the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).
In 1978, on our senior class trip to LABC ( soon to become Masters College in 1985) Disneyland, and some other Fundy colleges, I learned how LABC did not have physiology, sociology, etc, because those disciplines were not bases on the Bible so they must be all wronge. I checked, and Masters College still does not have those majors… Guess where Ken Ramey got his college degree?
I guess I am not reading into it what you are reading into it. It seems to me like he is supporting the woman..Vive la difference in interpretation. Again, I am more concerned about the healthy Eldership/membership question.b>@ Dave A A:
Leslie wrote:
Nope. He is supporting the husband has to do to “regain his authority” over the woman. Those words sink the ship for me!
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2, I’m going to go with Leslie on this one. Leeman was actually being very supportive of the wife, to the point where he said it was her prerogative to divorce him per Jesus words on divorce. Further, he supported her attending another church than her estranged husband and dissuaded the elders at her former church from considering any sort of means to discipline her.
Nancy2: Right after saying what he did about the possibility of the wife never liking her husband, despising the church, and being glad he was unfaithful he said this:
“And it’s possible she loved both dearly, but that now lifelong fears of what happened to her parents at age 5 are coming true in her own life and her emotional system simply cannot cope with it all. You and I don’t finally know the exact formula that makes up her insides, nor does the Holy Spirit expect us to. Instead, we should assume the best of her until concrete evidence says otherwise.”
So he was giving a balanced view and instructing the member (possible elder) of that church to be especially patient and refrain from making unnecessary judgments about the wife.
Thank you, my son read this and it made him smile. He said they care about what happened to me. Friend wrote:
By the way Ken Ramey's wife Kelly is from Washington state and his buddy Chris Mueller has been a speaker at LBC in 2010 and 2013. Chris Mueller was a pastor at valley fourth memorial church in Spokane for 11 years In total. He caused ,church split which if you Google valley fourth memorial church history you will find the history of the church and chris mueller. Chris mueller also is a Masters seminary graduate and he has a church in california. Since these men love posting their credentials it's funny how Chris puts that he pastored a church in Spokane Washington for 11 years but no other details, why??? So there are two people linking ken ramey to spokane washington keep digging… siteseer wrote:
Spotlight took the Oscar for best picture!
@ Darlene:
I’ve pulled up a chair at the virtual table here — I was surprised but I, too, thought Leeman was quite fair and reasonable. he was fair and reasonable in his managing of people’s lives.
my thought is: Leave people alone and quit managing their lives. their lives belong to them, not you (that is, Leeman and his groupies).
@ Darlene:
“I would not encourage him to insist on which church they attend in order to regain his “authority.” Encourage him to regain his authority not with commands but by leading with grace and doing everything he can to put her interests before his own, even as Christ did with the church.”
Two references about the husband regaining his authority over the wife does it for me, even when he says to to do it by “leading with grace ….”. The focus is to regain control of the subordinate one.
@ Nancy2:
well, yes, that silly ‘regaining authority’ bit… reads like a Christopher Guest film. 1 part entertaining, 1 part sad, 1 part infuriating.
Nancy2 wrote:
Nancy2: I’m no supporter of patriarchy but I can quote a few pieces of advice that Leeman gave which were quite good – and that surprised me. Here are some:
“Be slow to assume you can understand the depths of another’s pain.”
“Furthermore, keep in mind, as far as I understand, Jesus has given her grounds to divorce this man. And Jesus hates divorce. Yet sexual immorality is a big enough of a deal in Jesus’ mind that he condones divorce in such circumstances. We should be very slow then to burden her conscience contrary to Jesus.”
“Nowhere does the Bible command a person to attend or join “our” church.”
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even Jonathan Leeman can get a few things right. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean I have to buy into his theological paradigm lock, stock, and barrel.
@ Darlene:
So he has changed his views. Or his public views concerning women and male authority we have heard about for years? This is someone who believes and teaches we need a mediator between us and Christ who has the keys to tell us if we are really saved or not. God appointed him with those keys. Does anyone realize you must get permission to leave his church.
Has he made any declaration he has changed his views about women and male authority? He might be talking “patience” and that sounds real loving to folks compared to their usual Geneva approach but do folks here really think the adulterers “repentance” to elders would not eventually be the deciding factor that she is out of the elders good graces?
@ Nancy2:
Yes. He cannot help himself. The bottom line is about authority. This is part of why people missed the Piper problem for so long. The Flowery verbosity that covered up the real message: authority.
Gus wrote:
He sees it. all right. He knows its about power, but–He. Just. Doesn’t. Care.
Darlene wrote:
This is the same thing that struck me: That these guys all have the same excuse.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Physiology? ROFL. I can see why they’d think sociology subversive, but physiology? PS I’m quite sure Jesus would have studied sociolgy at uni if he was here now.
You make en excellent point and thank you for that. Remember they arrested and charged his perpetrator that night with aggravated sexual assault! He plead guilty 6 months later after denying he even touched my son calling him a liar and saying "I don't know what he's talking about I didn't do anything." Without my son going through the rape exam that night which was humiliating and painful as she had to insert 4 large Q tips it was already confirmed, and ken was waiting outside so ken knew as soon as we came out there was evidence of rape! Without the exam there might not have been a confession.
Also joe told the D.A. he was a homosexual when he confessed why lie about it for that long if he was saying it was consensual? Why plead guilty if you and your parents cried innocence blaming the victim for so long? What was the switch up for? Did ken and the parents not want a trial because more sick stuff would be revealed? Could it be that Joe himself was raped or abused another child on campus of LBC? AND THE parents, along with ken, were all to anxious to cover it up? Who abused joe? Maybe joe was abused like what happened with Pam Palmer's daughter's perpetrator. It could be ken had to do damage control and this is one mother/member that he couldn't fully control!
zooey111 wrote:
@ elastigirl:
Yes. It is all about micromanaging people. Every aspect of their lives because of some perceived spiritual authority they have convinced people they possess.
@ Darlene:
I think that Leeman did a good job with this particular situation. In the ‘authority’ discussion he is plainly telling the husband not to be a dictator or a bully and is clearly noting that the husband blew any authority he had with the adultery and Leeman has said that the wife was given the right of divorce by none other than Jesus himself.
In my thinking, which is not necessarily in line with anybody else’s thinking, both husbands and wives have positions of authority in the home, and adultery just blows all that to kingdom come. In this situation she still has her authority-authority to divorce, authority to go to a different church, authority to not recognize his authority which he must now re-establish by acting like Christ in the situation.
Authority is one of those good things that get misrepresented and abused and which get replaced by counterfeits by the wolves who are preying on the sheep right now. Authority becomes a prize to be fought over and something to be used against other people, but that is not what authority means.
Personal secular example: In one job I had the responsibility but not the authority. I could not institute the very things that I was hired to do because I had no personal authority to do so. It was a disaster. Authority is not a bad word but it is rather an abused concept IMO.
Bottom line is people need to stop playing their reconciliation games because that's all it is. In these corporate churches it's all about the pastor shutting down the abuse and shutting up the victim. They take these abusers and counsel them. The abuser claims Christ and when he abuses the pastor knows he's in big trouble at that point. Why? Because the abuser has revealed enough for the pastor to know he's not safe; yet the abuser claims Jesus and the pastor desperately wants his counseling and theology to work.
It has to work for him. If it doesn't, his narcissistic world is an illusion and the reality is he gets knocked off that pedestal he loves being up on so much! I'm not playing ken ramey's games, and he can't stand it I'm sure. This single woman who may not have much runs her own home, makes her own decisions, and isn't taking his crap! It is driving him crazy that it's women exposing him and a child.
Lydia wrote:
@ Julie Anne Smith
Ken did say that the police and the courts were unbelievers and couldn't judge this situation "biblically"!!! He tried to discourage me from getting my son into specialized counseling for children who have been sexually abused. He then told me if I choose to put him in that, I had better sit in there and make sure that she wasn't damaging him spiritually.
okrapod wrote:
I think in the case of a couple in a 9Marks church, as this seems to be, a wife does not have authority in the marriage relationship. Many of us reading Leeman’s response believe he is beginning with a presupposition that the husband in any marriage has God given authority over his wife. We believe this because he teaches this.
You believe that a man and a wife both have positions of authority in the home, but I don’t believe that is the starting point with Leeman. I can agree that Leeman said some good things, but in the end, if the marriage of this couple continues, Leeman would believe that the husband would again have authority in the marriage and the wife will need to submit to the husbands authority. Leeman allows for divorce because, well, Jesus said it is allowed here. Leeman would be against Jesus if he said otherwise.
@ mirele:
I think that was a bit of a surprise, a good one though!
Gus wrote:
And anyone who does this “clearly” does not understand abuse and how power plays into it. Maybe this is because such people are blinded by the power they have usurped from others in the world they live in.
Law Prof wrote:
Amen, LP! And Jesus said “Take note: I have told you in advance.”
The greatest need in the American church is for believers to pray for a new measure of discernment. You just can’t trust “ministers” who operate by stealth and deception! As one young SBC-YRR church planter told me “We are coming in the back door.” To which I replied in ESV so he could understand “He who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.”
Lydia wrote:
(I cut and pasted, I hope I am right that Lydia was the author of this quote.)
My own church, many years ago, used women to translate from English to Russian and back when doing Bible studies in Russian. We got criticized for that because it was supposedly equivalent to “women preaching”.
So apparently, it’s better that someone be lost than a woman translate the Gospel into their native language?
Max wrote:
Unfortunately, “discernment” in Christianese has been redefined to mean “YOU have a DEMON! DEMON! DEMON! SHEEKA-BOOM-BAH! BAM!”
Tina wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
And there is only ONE native language for the Gospel: Kynge Jaymes Englyshe.
Bridget wrote:
Oh, they understand POWER.
“These five Kings said one to another:
King unto King o’er the world is Brother…”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, I prefer to use the classical definition of discernment which pertains to developing a perception with a view to obtaining spiritual direction and understanding. Sometimes, discernment is just simple observation – looking around and listening carefully to what you have exposed yourself to.
Leslie wrote:
What is being read into it is the presupposition that Leeman brings to the discussion; that being that the husband is the head of the wife and that the wife will be subordinate to the husband if the marriage continues. Leeman is concerned with the husband gaining back “his authority.”
Why is the wife the one attending another church!!!!???? Again, the victim ousted and the perpetrator being ministered to. What a shame.
Why worry about having authority when you have no trust is another discussion, but a valid one if you believe you should have authority to begin with.
Max wrote:
This belongs in the quotes section. If we had one.
marquis wrote:
What you say about the pedestal and the system having to work, that’s it exactly. This is not about protecting the Bride of Christ, it’s not about the Bible, not about Jesus. Not at all.
Jesus exposed evil, the Bible is a running narrative of the dirty laundry of God’s people–reading Ken’s response to the church, in my opinion Ken Ramey is first and foremost about Ken Ramey, protecting Ken Ramey, promoting Ken Ramey, and by extension, his system and kingdom. Reading his statement to the church, with all its passive-aggressive language and backhanded slaps, it reads just like what you are saying: thinly-veiled narcissistic rage at the fact that a woman whom he could not control has exposed him and his system.
@ Mara:
Mara, that verse (John 10:1) certainly characterizes certain “pastors” in the New Calvinist movement.
Haitch wrote:
I entirely agree with you! This is appalling to even consider in any setting; in a “Christian” group, it is sheer outrage.
Patriciamc wrote:
Word.
marquis wrote:
If he understood the kingdom of God, even a little bit, he would see that he should be learning something very great from this woman and child. But he is unteachable and hardened.
Jenny wrote:
Agreed.
Bridget wrote:
I wonder where the husband’s sweetie goes to church? I wonder how many of the prior friends of this couple have pulled back as folks tend to do and perhaps the woman does not think that she has to endure that. Perhaps some people in church want her to play some victim role which she thinks does not fit the situation. Perhaps this is not the first time the husband has done this and she is just fed up to the gills with trying to look tolerant and forgiving in church like people expect her to do. Maybe even some prior sweetie that nobody knows about is at that church.
I don’t question her choice to leave, but I wonder why he chose to stay in the face of public knowledge of his adultery? There may be a lot more to the story, and the elders may be being played by this guy.
marquis wrote:
Good for you, Shauna!
@ okrapod:
From the information available in the comments I understood that the husband relented and was being ministered to by the church that the couple had been attending. The wife was not comfortable being at the same church where her cheating husband was still attending. She was attending elsewhere and the question of what was expected fromnher by her former church was the question.
Why wasn’t the adulterer asked to attend another church, even if he did say sorry? He could still counsel with someone from his church while attending elsewhere. His wife (children?) Could then continue attending where they were accustomed if they wanted to. I am not saying the wife cannot choose. I am questioning the Church not insisting that the cheating husband give way to the wife. What is the reason for the cheater being given preference? Is it because he is the husband/authority – male privilege? Is it because of tithe money? Is it just stupidity of Church elders? Etc. . .
@ Bridget:
Please excuse the typo’s.
@ Bridget:
I did not see where it was said that she was asked to leave or that he was asked to stay. I believe it gives the impression that the couple made their own choices and now the elders don’t know what to do about it.
Law Prof wrote:
That’s what I said. Keeping up appearances. Hyacinth Bucket. Pronounced BooKAY!
@ okrapod:
I’ll have to reread the comment, BUT my contention is that the elders/Church body should have put the adulterer out of the church to attend elsewhere (even if he apologized) and supported the wife and/or children from the get go. That does not preclude the wife from making different decisions at the moment or in the future, but it supports the victim. To me, anyway, this is the type of leadership that should be shown in a church body. Actually, if the husband is truly repentant and hopes for reconciliation, he should be doing this on his own to show that he understands what he has done is grevious and he is willing to do whatever he needs to to change his ways.
@ Bridget:
Yes, I agree with this, but just so nobody pressures the wife to stay. I left a church at the time of my divorce even though my husband did not attend that church due to the attitudes of pew sitters even though I had done no wrong in that particular situation. So I am biased in favor of the one sinned against having the option to pack up and go and shake the dust off en route.
Yep he sure is about protecting himself and his little kingdom he’s building for him and a few men in charge.Mara wrote:
Bridget wrote:
Thing is, that’s pretty much EXACTLY what went on in the Church at Corinth, where the person is sexual sin was ejected, then later allowed back in after what was apparently obvious repentance. At churches like Mr. Leeman’s, the victim is expelled.
Can anyone imagine, in a million years, Paul telling people at a church they ought to discipline a victim of sexual sin because they didn’t forgive quickly enough, because, after all, they sin also and all sin’s pretty much the same, and hey, this guy says he’s sorry, I mean what do you want, you sinful victim, is nothing good enough for you?
Law Prof wrote:
Because to Ken Ramey, nothing exists outside of Ken Ramey.
Nothing can possibly exist outside of Ken Ramey.
“His universe has room only for himself.”
— Mercedes Lackey, describing the Big Bad of one of her fantasy novels
(And in my early D&D days, there was an original monster called a “Vatch” — I think it was sourced from some SF novel — which was described as “the ultimate Solipsistic reality-warper”. To a Vatch, all that existed was the Vatch and everything else was just a dream construct in the mind of the Vatch. Upon encoutering a Vatch, the DM would always start an encounter with the trademark phrase “Hello, Dream-creatures…”)
marquis wrote:
Of course he has to say that, hey, I mean that counselor might do something really awful like undo the spiritual damage that Ken’s apparently doing to you and him.
Max wrote:
I understand the original meaning as “the ability to see the reality beneath the appearance”, what in fantasy fiction is called “Truesight”.
Thank you Serving Kds in Japan. I'm doing what men like him cannot stand. I am a single uncovered woman exposing him and not playing the bible game on reconciliation. Why? Because they do not believe it applies to them. He thinks it only applies to the stinky dirty sheep as he has called his own congregation in sermons he has done and I downloaded everyone of them and I am going to transcribe everyone of those sermons. He has chosen to be my enemy and slander my son. I have learned a lot about my enemy through is sermons. Ken actually has revealed a lot about his true self/ character it's just been masked with his, likeable image and the gospel. I would love to be at peace with him but it will NEVER happen if it does not stand on the TRUTH! Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yep, and in Christianity called “discernment”. It’s about the only thing I think I’ve gained in over 33 years of knowing Jesus. I was absolutely blind early on, for some reason stumbled along like Mr. Magoo never really being spiritually abused, always being in either generally harmless churches or being on the relatively safe periphery of harmful ones (such as a Calvary Chapel I attended during college). I was being protected, I think. All until I hit 40, then it’s as if the Lord decided I needed to learn a lesson and perhaps gain that discernment. Wow, what a decade of abusive churches and abusive church friends (so-called)! Those, like me, who don’t submit easily to the Lord have to learn the hard way.
okrapod wrote:
And this is just as bad as victims being disciplined for not submitting to leaders’ ridiculous expectations when they are already in pain and confusion from the initial abuse.
Law Prof wrote:
Yep!
@ marquis:
It is an aha moment when you get their game figured out. Which is often as simple as combining narcissistic tendancies with authoritarianism.
I go on past behavior and words. So when the aha happens, as time goes on, you start connecting dots with other past words and actions. When they don’t match, you look at actions.
That is where I am coming from on Leeman based upon reading him and following the 9 Marks pattern over time. Their foundation is authority. It all starts there even if he sounds more reasonable in a dear Abbey style Q&A giving advice to young pastors. I am also aware that 9 Marks is well aware they have taken a PR beating lately and need to tone it down.
I have never witnessed anyone jump through so many mental gymnastic hoops as him trying to explain his position on human mediators to friendly Baptist preachers on voices.
When they have to actually interact on a level field, it is a game changer. They don’t do so well. And those were the friendly guys.
Anyway, you start to see what you are really dealing with, as you did under horrible circumsatances, and it can rock your world. I am doubly proud of you. Your son will always remember his mom as one who fought for him. There is no better legacy.
Billy was at one of these camps and did not participate. I only found out recently when bob johnson exposed it on his website. My son told me he didn’t like it and the kids and youth leaders thought it funny to throw the dead parts on him and others ( as it just being funny). My son did not like it but didn’t know there was something wrong with it to mention it to me. It wasn’t until I pulled the videos lbc did and saw my son In those videos. I wondered why he didn’t want to go back but I just assumed he just didn’t care for it. It should also be noted another parent from LBC found out and confronted KEN, MIKE GOINS, and RUSTY KOCH needless to say I heard that did not go well for her as she was placed under church discipline for questioning it. zooey111 wrote:
Announcement:
Next Tuesday, March 8th, 2016 at 1:00 p.m. the Senate Judicial Proceedings Committee will hear testimony about this proposed legislation (MD-SB69 – see link below) to extend Child Sexual Abuse – Statute of Limitations. Senator Robert Young, supported by victim advocacy organizations, such as SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests and Pastors) are attempting again to extend the civil statute of limitations. Currently, in Maryland in most cases the civil SOLs are 3 years after a victim turns 18. As a mother of a sexual abuse victim, I know that is not enough time for a survivor to attempt to receive justice. This law was the primary law used to stop our lawsuit the first time around. The primary forces lobbying AGAINST it are the Roman Catholic Church! (Hmmm, I wonder why?? Watch the 2016 Academy Award’s Best Picture, “Spotlight”) Victims are often not able come forward about their trauma into their adulthood – as seen in the recent criminal conviction of Nate Morales, the former worship and youth leader of CLC formerly of SGM (now SGC) – his victims did not come forward until their late 30s and early 40s. If they had not been able to receive a criminal conviction in this case, they would not have been able to sue in a civil court either – within the current statutes.
Criminal and civil laws are like the two bookends that hold up our judicial system to enable justice for victims and protect the society. Come join me in testifying for the extending of MD’s Civil SOLs on child sexual abuse.
Thank you.
For more information, contact:
Senator Ronald Young’s office –
ronald.young@senate.state.md.us
(410) 841-3575, (301) 858-3575
Or contact me at:
palmerp@live.com
Or “Friend” me on Facebook.
Thank you.
Bill text:
https://legiscan.com/MD/text/SB69/id/1279103/Maryland-2016-SB69-Introduced.pdf
@ Law Prof:
Give me your opinion on a situation where a person was convicted of sexual conduct with teen males, was sent to prison, served his time and then went back to the same church where he had previously accessed his victims and was re-instated because after all ‘he had paid his debt to society.’ This is a true case summary.
At what point does a church re-admit, if ever, those who are sexual predators on the young?
Leslie wrote:
Yeah– he just assumes that the church the (presumably YRR) guys want to take over is “unhealthy” and any opposition from pew sitters will be “hostility”.
I started to laugh when you mention the hoops they jump through to cover their butts!!!! I realized the day ken said it wasn’t rape I began to really see him and it wasn’t pretty nor easy to handle. I listened to every sermon of his trying to unwrap the indoctrination and it worked. I learned about him by his own words and his,responses to my sons rape began to make sense. What he really thought of us I saw it in his own sermons. I absorbed just as much as I learned to let go of. I had to listen again to see what he was really saying in his,sermons and then something happened in all that. I began to dig and was taken down so many rabbit holes that got deeper. Bottom line is that ken does not give two hoots about what happened to my son. He told me from day 1 that for me to say anything is slandering the perpetrator and I was not to tell anyone. That this would divide the church!! Well ken ramey you should know!!! Isn’t that what you say you did to walden community church? You make that very clear in your sermon that you preached to a bunch of good ole boys (pastors) in PRETORIA AFRICA!Which by the way ken and that pastor there tried to wipe off the Internet that he and not her key speaker were there! Funny every workshop sermon was posted for months and then removed as soon as,ken got wind of it being exposed!! You were to little to late on that one someone got it before you tried to erase it forever! By the way I found pictures of you in those workshops preaching at the pulpit with the sermon titles and outline including the two on walden community church!!!!! Funny how,that worked out. Lydia wrote:
Oh my gosh, you poor thing.
When will people realize that the Church is not a haven for the “perfect” but a hospital for the sick and sinful?
We are all a mess. We come to Christ for healing, but healing usually is not instantaneous.
I cannot relate to this crazy theology at all.
brian wrote:
marquis wrote:
What worthless jerkrods those ‘Christian’, ‘pastor’-‘leaders’ are. Just worthless. Little despots drunk on their own self-importance.
May they continue to be exposed for the fraud that they are.
May the kingdom they’ve built on sand crumble before their eyes.
Mara wrote:
And a pox on them too!
This is consistent with my earlier post that Master’s College did not (does not have) any social sciences…. If it is not bases on the Bible, it is not truth.. I was taught this way…. All human interaction have to be seen through THEIR reading of the Bible…
marquis wrote:
Lydia wrote:
…”There is no more formidable opponent in both ferocity and resolve than a mother fighting for her own children or the children of another”…
— Unknown —
mirele wrote:
I was glad to read that Phil Saviano, one of the victims who helped to uncover the abuse, was with the group on stage last night to accept the award.
elastigirl wrote:
My thought too. But vastly extended to the Almighty’s dealings with his beloved humans. In my opinion, the Almighty has no desire to micro-manage an individual’s life. I think that sort of thing is more in line with the gods of the Greeks and the Canaanites, not the God of Abraham.
Muff Potter wrote:
I know. I sounded pretty mad, didn’t I?
But I was angry at the time. And still am.
But I don’t really want a pox on them.
I just want them to stop getting away with building their own kingdoms while trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that they are building God’s kingdom.
marquis wrote:
How do they rationalize this with the Biblical verses that state they should obey the laws of the land? Just asking?
They keep breaking the law by enabling child sexual abuse, wife beating, child abuse, and now rape.
If I sound merciless on this issue I am. They need to be tried in court like any other law breaker. What makes them feel entitled to special treatment? Shame on them! They aren’t “special” as the church lady used to say.
Mark wrote:
In the secular world, any one who blatantly protected a rapist would face criminal charges!
@ marquis:
(SNORT!) I would like to know how Ken looks at Romans 13 and submitting to civil authority.
Marquis your former pastor is a loser and a fraud. I’m still contemplating what took place. The stuff with the dead animals stuns me. I think of all the health codes that were probably broken, and the infectious disease issues. I mean when I was in biology in high school we were taught to handle dissected animals with care, and masks.
marquis wrote:
I did that when the pastor of the church I went to started teaching all kinds of rot. When I listened to those messages again, I realized there was way more stuff I had missed.
@ marquis:
One thing I want to tell you about your son. There are many people who have disabilities all across the board. I deal with some dyslexia in my life. I’ve struggled and struggled with school. I was diagnosed with dyslexia when I was 35. It stunned me. But it helped me understand why school was so hard for me. Yet despite that I graduated, and got a MA. I work in Washington, D.C. and was recruited. Some of the best workers are those who have struggles or disabilities. They have had to work twice as hard to get where they are at. Don’t let others define your son. And remember there are a lot of others in pain from their church situation. You are not alone. In my story I was unsuccessfully recruited to a former SGM Church called Redeemer Arlington. In the process of enduring a false accusation I also learned why rape and sexual assault are an issue in the military.
Lydia wrote:
I don’t know the answer to any of those questions, Lydia. I’m only responding to advice Leeman gave a member (possibly an elder) regarding a wife whose husband was unfaithful to her. On the surface of it, the advice itself that I posted was good. Of course, I am no supporter of Leeman’s teachings, but I also was glad to see that he doesn’t support the belief that divorce is never permitted in Scripture – like Piper and a few others. Of course, I’m not inclined to jump on the Neo-Cal, Patriarchy bandwagon because of these observations. After all, even the Mormons get a few things right, but that doesn’t mean I’ll be joining their ranks! 😉
marquis wrote:
How lovely. Thank you for sharing that. 🙂
Eagle wrote:
That, and I am concerned that it may desensitize people to cruelty to animals. If I had been a kid at that summer camp thing, I would have been upset then erupted in fury and screamed at the adults there for being so cavalier about animal suffering and death.
Even if the animals had been killed at a butcher’s shop, it’s still an indifference to animal life.
Pam Palmer wrote:
There should be NO statute of limitations for child abuse! That is how Mahaney and SGM got off the hook.
marquis wrote:
Marquis: All I can say is: YOU GO GIRL! You don’t have to play a helpless, dependent female that needs protection from the Neo-Cal Mafia. You’re only their ally when you play by their rules.
marquis wrote:
Ah…the Nouthetic party line. They reveal their ignorance when it comes to the world outside their little Neo-Cal bubble. This is very cult-like thinking. Keep members from associating with people outside the group think tank. Because as soon as the members discover that the people outside of their little world aren’t dangerous and out to get them, they might leave the Neo-Cal bunker. Can’t have that!
There are some big boys in Texas by the name of Jack Graham and Paige Patterson. Let these entitled whatever’s spend some time in prison. They are part of the problem. I pray they go down to the mourners bench and ask law enforcement to take them to prison for shielding pedophiles and rapists. Then they can redeem themselves and show what Christians they are.
Max wrote:
And Jesus said: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”
If the Neo-Cals have the True Gospel, and the True Interpretation of the Bible, then why do they have to take over the churches by stealth? The truth should be spoken out in the open, in broad daylight. No back room deals to take over churches from the unsuspecting, docile sheep.
I do believe there are those who are celebrity pastors who if they practice what they preach should fear Gehenna. It is all clearly spelled out in the infallible Word of God. Sorry i am a bit of a fundamentalist, but I respect those who aren’t.
Thank you and I’m sorry for what you have gone through. I agree we are not the only ones hurt which is why my son let me do this with and for him. We,want others to know it’s ok to speak up. Eagle wrote:
Tina wrote:
Then these misogynists would disagree with the angel who told the women at the tomb to declare to the male disciples that Jesus had risen from the dead.
@ Daisy:
When I was in Boy Scouts we had to kill, skin and cook a rabbit. Doing it was hard and not easy. And I have a deeper respect for life. Actually when I think of how hard it was to watch it be killed and then in my part of help skin it..it gave me great pause. When I heard about how serial killers started out taking joy in killing animals it causes me deep discomfort. What I did in Boy Scout camp was not easy, hard..but looking back it was one of the things that taught me to respect animals. Even those in the camp who participated had a great amount of respect for animals.
Darlene wrote:
i.e. The Situation Can Only Be Judged under Neo-Cal Shari’a.
Darlene wrote:
You can ask the same question of the Soviet Communist Party regarding Eastern Europe in the aftermath of WW2.
Nancy2 wrote:
But (as I heard so many times re other subjects when I was in-country), that’s (sneer) SECULAR. Not CHRISTIAN(TM). They’re SPIRITUAL(TM), God’s Chosen Elect. “Laws of Man or Word of GAWD! Who do YOU Serve?” and all that.
marquis wrote:
Marquis: A few questions. Did they actually call you an “uncovered” woman? Is this a phrase they and other Neo-Cals use? I’d never heard this kind of language till I started reading this blog. Did Ramey actually use the term “stinky, dirty sheep” in a public sermon? If so, this is very disturbing behavior – smugness and arrogance come to mind.
Daisy wrote:
A BIG AMEN here Daisy. There is nothing I hate worse than cruelty to any life-form. The church folks who sponsor this kind of thing need to really re-examine and re-think what it means to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
marquis wrote:
Marquis: “Slandering” the perpetrator? What is wrong with this Ramey? Does he not know that slander means telling lies to smear someone’s reputation? This confirms to me that he believes you and your son were lying about the rape. It further shows that he believes the law enforcement officers along with the doctor who examined your son and the court who convicted the perpetrator of sexually abusing your son – that all of these people are lying. Further, a “pastor” that would brag about causing division in a church is not a shepherd but a hireling. The more you tell your story, the more I am convinced this Ramey is mentally and emotionally disturbed and a danger to the people in his church.
@ Darlene:
Sounds almost Islamic or Hijabic?
okrapod wrote:
I’d say they might very well be putting themselves in danger of major litigation if the person is put in some position of trust or there’s no fair warning to others in the community, and the former predator becomes a repeat predator. This would be similar to the negligent hiring theory under which employers may be legally liable for the actions of employees even acting outside the scope of their duties or in direct contradiction to the organization’s rules. If they were lax in putting this person in the position, they can be held liable for a tort claim.
Darlene wrote:
Because they don’t. Reformed theology is an aberration of Scripture, advanced by young reformers who truly believe they have come into the world for such a time as this. They justify stealth & deception to gain pulpits, and taking church assets financed by others, for the cause of the reformation.
marquis wrote:
I’ve seen at least one pretty awful product of that seminary, a person who apparently took years to detox from the place and was a perfectly awful church leader until the detox was complete.
Mark wrote:
Max, just ask Doug Wilson of the Kirk in Moscow. I’m sure he’ll have a “wordsmithy” answer for you.
Mark wrote:
I doubt that they even care to. They hate the Bible, most likely; except for those hand-picked verses they can use to solidify the hold they have on their own kingdoms.
@ Law Prof:
Thanks. Frankly that is good to hear.
Whoops, I meant *Mark* not Max.
@ Mark:
What do you mean by “hijabic”? It’s not an actual word. Hijab literally means scarf, and a hijabi is a woman who wears a head scarf – usually that means a womsn who wears it for religious readons, but not alwsys. Fwiw, there are plenty of Mennonite women in my area who fit the bill. 🙂
Eagle wrote:
Eagle: And gloves! I’m wondering if there isn’t some kind of lawsuit that can be filed against this church that put these young people in a health hazardous situation. Law Prof, what do you think? The parents were trusting these adult counselors with their children’s safety, and from what I saw of those photos, some of those weird training exercises along with licking animal parts is anything but safe. It shouts TEEN MANIA kookery.
@ Mark:
Also fwiw, lots of Orthodox Jewish women wear scarves, wigs, large hats that entirely cover their hair, etc. It’s not restricted to a single religion, or even to religion, period – it’s only been since the lste 1950s-early 1960s that American women stopped wearing hats or large head coverings.
For much of Westetn European history, women have worn veils, wimples, etc. after getting married. Uncovered hair was OK for girls, but a married woman wearing her hair uncovered was literally scandalous – not something you did in public, unless you were a prostitute.
siteseer wrote:
An ex-member of the Christian cult I once belonged to started a website and posted sermons of the cult leader. It was very enlightening for me. What I once had thought were sound interpretations of Scripture as a young convert, listening to them over again 25 yrs later I realized it was mind-controlling nonsense.
@ numo:
I was being sarcastic regarding uncovered woman comment by Ken Ramey. The Neocals are starting to remind me of fundamentalists in Islam with their laws, strictures and hypocrisy.
Max wrote:
Yes, I agree! Our society needs to protect children at all costs. And this applies to adults who were sexually abused as children.
numo wrote:
Some american women. My grandmother wore a hat to church, and of course Jackie had her pillbox, but I don’t recall ever seeing my mother in a hat. But nurses did wear caps, and proud of it; I still have mine in a box downstairs.
@ numo:
Yes and the Haredi will claim that the Muslims got the Hijab from them . Women are not to reveal a strand of their hair and some Haredi women shave their heads and wear wigs. Devout Haredi men and conservative Muslim men also cover their heads. For most of human history woman have worn hats or head coverings. As an aside, it is pretty offensive to call a unmarried woman an uncovered woman. That is terribly mean thing to say within the context of their meaning.
And I probably offended Orthodox Jews who prefer to be called “frum”, I believe. Haredi offends them.
@ numo:
The Muslim women in this article disagree on your definition:
“s modern-day movement, codified by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Taliban Afghanistan and the Islamic State, has erroneously made the Arabic word hijab synonymous with “headscarf.” This conflation of hijab with the secular word headscarf is misleading. “Hijab” literally means “curtain” in Arabic. It also means “hiding,” ”obstructing” and “isolating” someone or something. It is never used in the Koran to mean headscarf.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/12/21/as-muslim-women-we-actually-ask-you-not-to-wear-the-hijab-in-the-name-of-interfaith-solidarity/
numo wrote:
I am the oldest child of an oldest child of an oldest child …….
I remember both of my grandmothers, 2 g- grandmothers, 1 gg-grand mother, 1 gg- aunt, and 20 g- aunts. Of those 26 women, only 4 of them wore hats. One g-grandma wore a dark colored, mennonite-style bonnet all of the time; a g- aunt and the gg- aunt wore pill box hats and cloches; and one grandma wore a John Deere hat on the farm, but otherwise went bareheaded unless it was blue cold – then it was pill box hats and cloches.
@ Lydia:You are correct. You will find many different interpretations are what is proper sartorial dress within Islam and they are probably all correct. All I know is that Muslims value modesty and whether hair is or isn’t covered may not matter. In recent past the head of the Al Ahzar university, a noted Muslim theologian, castigated a women for wearing the Naqib or full veil. This was extreme according to the theologians understand of Hijab. I may offend some but I have no problem with the dress of the young lady in the Washington Post article who sued her employer. I do have a problem with the Naqib in our insecure world. I think we should ban it like France. Sorry for not being politically correct.
@ Nancy2:
That sounds about right for how I remember the general populace. I had one grandmother who wore what she called a sun bonnet when she worked out doors, and that was probably a good idea what with what we know about sun exposure now.
And sorry, the full veil is Niqab .
Mark wrote:
So, here’s an interesting one on fundamentalist Islam.
I heard a very thought-provoking (online) talk by a laddie by the name of Faisal Malik. He was born in Pakistan and raised a devout Muslim. He came to the US partly to study (IIRC) and partly to convert Christians to the true revelation that is Islam. Long story short, he encountered Jesus and called him the Son of God – which, for a Muslim, is – I gather – the ultimate switching of loyalties. You’d all be advised to forget about his Christian theology, because it’s very similar to mine. But he does know about Islam, and he said this: at the heart of Islam is the longing for a Father’s love.
The same is true of fundagelicals and neo-cals. Their reduction of the whole Christian life to a doctrinal p***ing contest – however learned-sounding the rhetoric – is completely alien to the gospel accounts. There’s no heavenly Father in that kind of religion. The sad thing is, there purports to be.
@ Lydia:
From what I have read, there are many different meanings and interpretations for the word. Different cultures and different time frames probably have much to do with the interpretation.
Max wrote:
50-100 years ago, it would have been Marxist-Leninist Ideology instead of Truly Reformed Theology. But the underlying dynamic is the same — young Idealists who WILL Change The Face of The World! With their Perfect Ideology!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Because Perfect/Pure Ideology cannot gather you under her wings like a mother bird does her chicks. There is only abstract Theory and Intellect; no personality needed, only Axioms.
About two decades ago, there was this good-quality afternoon talk show on local Christian AM radio — Rich Buhler’s “Talk from the Heart”.
In a parable, Buhler once said that in Christ’s time, Jews thirsting after God would first go to the most visible Rabbis who claimed they knew God — the Pharisee party. And after experiencing them, they would go “If that’s what it means to be Godly, I want nothing to do with Him” and walk away, sad & hopeless. And that this Rabbi from Nazareth went after those who had been burned like that, to show them by example what God really WAS like.
@ Mark:
Yes, i was already aware of all that.
All of the hijabis I’ve known had long, flowing hair. (I used to be an ESL tutor and worked with students in their homes, somhot yo know their children, etc. I miss them all.)
numo wrote:
Remember, English has a long history of coining new words on the spot.
In this case, the Arabic word with an English suffix meaning “of the” or “like”.
numo wrote:
So under the veil they had hair that would have turned Gothard on?
(That’s the first thing that came to mind when you said “long, flowing”.)
@ Mark:
Haredi is a new term and much,preferred tp ultra-orthodox, which many perceive as a slur. But afaik, frum is probably most apt, at least within the context of Judaism. I think haredi is one of thosr inadequate terms that has to cover a lot of ground.
@ Lydia:
Well, I’m not going to get into this. But that’s a good link.
@ Mark:
Yes, in terms of diversity of practice and modesty for both sexes.
@ Mark:
Yes. I’ve mostly seen it worn by Saudi women, as opposed to the use of a scarf with an opening for eyes and nose, which many seem to prefer in colder weather. Plus, it takes no time at all to do up the scarf.
There used to be many Wahhabi women near where i lived, likely married to men on contract with the Saudi embassy.
But to be clear, relatively few Muslim women of my acquaintance wore hijab, and most who did do showed a good deal of hair. Loosely worn headscarves are part of local and national dress for many, after all. In W. Africa, most Muslim women wear elaborate, turbanlike head wraps, but so do many non-Muslim women as well.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Can we just leave off the sexual connotations for once, please?
@ Bridget:
Yep.
@ okrapod:
I think there’s a regional component to this as well. Where i grew up, women still wore hats to church when i was a child – mostly older women, but being really dressed up for them meant that you didn’t go out without a hst. My grandmother used to put on a dress to go shopping downtown, even, until late in her life.
And you’ll find hats of all descriptions worn by women in black church congregations today. Millinery still lives on!
@ numo:
And part of my point was this: Muslim women are vety aware of fashion, wear nice outfits, makeup and all the rest. Part of thst is hair care.
@ Bridget:
it would be worth checking out the authors claims on the translation of hijab.
“In colloquial Arabic, the word for “headscarf” is tarha. In classical Arabic, “head” is al-ra’as and cover is gheta’a. No matter what formula you use, “hijab” never means headscarf. The media must stop spreading this misleading interpretation”
“The word hijab, or a derivative, appears only eight times in the Koran as an “obstacle” or “wall of separation” (7:46), a “curtain” (33:53), “hidden” (38:32), just a “wall of separation” (41:5, 42:52, 17:45), “hiding” (19:14) and “prevented” or “denied access to God” (83:15)”
” In the Koran, the word hijab never connotes any act of piety. Rather, it carries the negative connotation of being an actual or metaphorical obstacle separating the “non-believers” in a dark place, noting “our hearts are under hijab (41:5),” for example, a wall of separation between those in heaven and those in hell (7:46) or “Surely, they will be mahjaboon from seeing their Lord that day (83:15).” Mahjaboon is a derivate verb from hijab. The Saudi Koran translates it as “veiled.” Actually, in this usage, it means, “denied access.””
A very sad way to view women.
@ Bridget:
Arabic seems to be the standard for the Koran. Just as Koine Greek for the NT. The original meanings of words seems instructive in both cases.
@ Lydia:
Speaking of the Koran:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/29/the-american-quran-pissing-off-the-saudis.html
The Neo-Calvinists and other complementarians were perturbed and beside themselves in furor over a planned gender inclusive Bible version some years back (which I believe would have been put out by Zondervan as a NIV, IIRC).
Read that Daily Beast Koran article and tell me if it doesn’t bring to mind the gender comp fear mongering over gender inclusive Bible versions. 🙂
You can’t get into Ascot without a hat.@ okrapod:
Leslie wrote:
I had to look up what that was but somebody else here was on the computer. All I can say is that you can get into churchill downs without a hat, so I will force myself to refrain from troubling the Brits or the horses about hats.
@ okrapod:
I could have said who needs horses when there is NASCAR but that would have been ugly. So I cleaned it up a tad.
@ Daisy:
Have you tried to buy a 1st edition TNIV lately before the politically correct changes?
Law Prof wrote:
LP, once you see it, you can’t un-see it! Your journey sounds similar to mine. God took you to a place for an up-close and personal encounter with New Calvinism. You now speak clearly about what you have learned to steer others from the aberrations of reformed belief and practice.
As an old guy, I’ve been a reluctant participant in the blogosphere, but feel God has shown me some things in order to speak a warning to others … particularly as it pertains to Calvinization of the Southern Baptist Convention. For the last 5-years, my warning has been “From among your own selves men will arise, speaking distorted things, to draw away disciples after themselves [as their followers]. Therefore be continually alert, remembering … I did not stop admonishing and advising each one [of you] with tears” (Acts 20:30-31). This has been my burden.
@ okrapod:
Are you familiar with “My Fair Lady”? There’s a great segment set during Ascot opening day.
numo wrote:
Come on, HUG doesn’t always use sexual connotations, and then again, what’s wrong with them? Not like God didn’t create sex or anything.
Max wrote:
Amen to that, Max.
Lydia wrote:
No. I only have one NIV, it’s not a gender inclusive one. (I got it years ago as a gift.)
Max wrote:
I am sorry, Max. This is a tragedy and I fear there may be lost generation(s) because of the Calvinization of a once great evangelical denomination. So sorry few see the danger. So sorry that Neo Calvinists are so brazenly bent on taking it all over. And those who show true leadership. such as Norman Geisler, are not even Southern Baptists. And those who could say something are so corrupt they won’t or can’t say a thing. Sad deal.
@ Daisy:
They are very hard to find. That was a propaganda war bar none on the TNIV. Will we see the same for the Koran? Great link, btw.
@ Lydia:
I am glad you enjoyed the link. It just so reminded me of how gender complementarians pitch a fit over gender inclusive language versions.
Complementarians sure don’t mind male-skewed translations, though, such as is mentioned here:
http://juniaproject.com/footnoted-bible-written-for-men-part-1/
I posted this headline/link to the “Spotlight” thread a couple of days ago, but I’m not sure how many folks saw it.
NY Bishop Rape Shames Abuse Victims: Boys Are ‘Culpable’ For Their Actions At 7 Years Old
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2015/09/ny-bishop-rape-shames-abuse-victims/
That bishop’s response (which is beyond horrific) to child sex abuse in churches reminds me of some of the responses that Shauna and her son received from their church – the victim-blaming.
It’s incomprehensible to me how anyone can hold a victim (especially a young person) accountable (or ‘culpable,’ as the bishop put it) for having been attacked.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’d never heard of Rich Buhler or his radio program “Talk from the Heart.” So, I decided to look him up. I found this excellent interview of him with Steve Arterburn from New Life Live. It is EXCELLENT! Please all Wartburg Watchers, if you have the time, LISTEN TO THIS INTERVIEW with Rich Buhler. It is just short of 8 minutes and well worth it! It is Rich Buhler’s last interview – he passed away 6 days later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpM_aPOFanM
Yes, and I told ken ramey that the next child this person rapes THAT IT WILL BE KENS FAULT because he has basically told this teen you did nothing wrong
Christiane wrote:
@ Lydia:
I did read the article.
Mark wrote:
Mark, if/when the New Calvinism bubble breaks, one of the greatest mission fields on the planet may very well be among the Millennials and Generation-X SBC members who fell for the aberrations of reformed theology. The sad thing is, when they realize they have been deceived, they may be so disillusioned they will never go to church again. And who’s plan would that be?
I was young, and now am old … and I’ve witnessed the SBC as you state, a “once great evangelical denomination.” In the past, it has been a light in the darkest corners of the earth. It’s missionaries have been faithful to preach the message of the Cross of Christ to ALL people wherever they were called. Sadly, SBC’s International Mission Board has recently down-sized its foreign missionary force by over 1100 of those faithful servants! A current article on this is posted over at SBC Today; note the comment exchange on the implications of Calvinism on this decision: http://sbctoday.com/imb-exodus-1132-missionaries-staff-take-voluntary-pink-slips/
Daisy wrote:
To avoid gender-twisted Scripture, do not purchase an NIV published after 1984. You can’t purchase a new one, without running into the questionable version. If the NIV is your sword of choice, look for one at a yard sale, flea market, used book store … or swipe Aunt Mary’s.
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Darlene wrote:
I used to listen to him during the Eighties. One of the best quality talk shows on AM radio at the time.
He first built his credibility as “Rumor Rich”, tracking down the Christian Urban Legends (usually centering around some Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist End Time Prophecy or another) which were widespread at the time. Other Christian radio would pass them on as “THIS IS IT!!!!! SCRIPTURE!!!! SCRIPTURE!!!!”; Rumor Rich would track them down and give his results on the air. Needless to say, NONE of them had any substance.
I remember one time he blew up on the air. There was a lot of pedophilia victims surfacing at the time, and most of the calls he got were about “this cockamamie story about some Russian scientists who drilled a Well into Hell”. (A known hoax.)
And then there was the 1984 Olympics Earthquake Scare — “I could have told you it was a Full Moon just from the kind of calls I’ve been getting. And I’ll tell you the same thing I told everyone else: Call me back Monday (AFTER the prophesied Big One) and we’ll talk about it then.”
That’s what made his credibility with me.
Darlene wrote:
He died?
Darlene wrote:
I remember his voice as a little different, and his beard was NOT white back then. He lived near one of my alternate routes home from work.
Three minutes in: OH SHIT — PANCREATIC CANCER! AUTOMATIC KILL!
Four and a half minutes in: Interviewer sounds too conventionally Christianese, and one thing about Rich Buhler was he was NOT conventionally Christianese.
1984 Olympics Earthquake Scare (and its aftermath)…
Full Moon/Weird Call Days (move over Art Bell, some of them got really weird)…
“Failed attempt at self-baptism” (i.e. falling into an empty swimming pool)…
And the time he accidentally torpedoed Benny Hester’s CCM career with a backwards masking joke…
I stopped listening to KBRT-AM when they took him off the air. Station went downhill after that into Conventional Christianese trying to be Hip.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
LOL!
I bet Buhler spent a lot of time talking about Hal Lindsey and John Ankerberg. My PCA youth group was big into Ankerberg since we were in the same town as he.
numo wrote:
I’ve known a few as well. Many Muslims certainly do use the term “hijab” to refer to a head scarf. I think the writers of the article were pleading with people to look at the origins of the word and stop using it to mean scarf. I definitely see parallels with the use of “covering” in Certain Christian Circles to mean everything from a hat to an almighty Conqueror of Eve and Jezebel.
Friend wrote:
…annnnd now I’m pondering how I would feel, if women from other religions started wearing prairie dresses to show solidarity with me.
@ Bridget:
Good! I am probably too feminist when it comes to women understanding their freedom. Working with Muslim refugees especially the young girls really opened my eyes at how oppressed they are within their own family. Wearing the hijab is not an option for them.
@ Daisy:
This is such a disgrace I don’t have the words for it.
I’m aware that some abusers hold their victims to be responsible as on occasion they may approach them for sex – obviously here I’m talking about those who have been groomed. What these perverted idiots have entirely missed is that they have taught these young people is that sex is the currency they need to pay to get what they really want: love, affection, attention…especially young people who were in institutions, or orphanages & had no parents to care for them. Had the ‘Priests’ or others shown that what they wanted in exchange for attention was someone who liked golf or fishing they’d have had kids fanatical about these.
These ‘men’ make me sick.
And Billy’s rapist needs proper help with his sexually criminal behaviour, to understand & hopefully amend his behaviour as an adult. He doesn’t need a bunch of ignorant religious nuts telling him that repentence, particularly pseudo-repentence is enough.
Max wrote:
This is called a “Take Your God And Shove It!” reaction.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, HUG. He had pancreatic cancer.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of the Rich guy before, but I vaguely recall the “well dug to Hell” story.
I can’t remember if I read about it in the paper or saw it on Christian TV. That must have been in the 1980s, maybe 1990s?
I also remember KISS (rock band) supposedly standing for “Knight in Satan’s Service.” That rumor was going around in the 1970s or early 1980s.
The Proctor and Gamble logo supposedly contained Wiccan or Satanic motifs. That was also from around the 80s, I think. Or maybe a bit later??
Lydia wrote:
You’ve hit on an important truth, Lydia! In one local family, some daughters wear scarves and some do not, and I know them well enough to believe they choose freely. When any family looks very uniform, I do wonder.
Within the Christian framework, how can we be sure that we are freely giving up our freedom? So many people here at TWW really want their faith to be challenged, and yet we see individuals and families losing their autonomy within cult-like churches. If people want to live in a strict way, in a community that upholds standards with which they agree, how can they protect themselves?
Daisy wrote:
My mother boycotted Proctor and Gamble during the 1980’s. She sat me down and showed me that symbol. She was wanting me to join the boycott. How did this falsehood ever start?
I would dare to presume that this bishop is a pediphile himself. Remember child rapist always blame the victim. Doth thou protest to much when he gives the age of reason? So I guess he’s in favor of 7 year old child brides to! Right? Daisy wrote:
Mark wrote:
Some say Amway started it to stick a shiv in the competition.
@ Mark:
Snopes.com has a long entry but says the origin of the Procter and Gamble logo rumor is unknown. Apparently some Amway distributors benefited by spreading the rumor, but I remember seeing material about it much earlier. A friend circulated a very cheap-looking, shrill, “Christian” flier purporting to show satanic elements in the logo. Some of the rumor mongering originated in Florida. It frustrates me when people make such stuff up, and when people fall for it.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Some other things I remember about the show:
“George from Hemet” — the standard pseudonym for call-ins who wanted to stay anonymous.
The two regular call-in hecklers, Lou and Doc. Doc was a predecessor of the “New Atheist” types — aggressive and nasty. Lou was some old retired guy who just liked to call in and heckle talk-show hosts; Rich even used to cull “Christians behaving Badly” news items to send to him.
Oh, and how Rich accidentally torpedoed Benny Hester’s CCM career:
The day before, Rich had hosted “Pastor Gary of Eagles Nest” in Long Beach, who was crusading for Christ against the latest Satanic Plot: (reverb) BACKWARDS MASKING. “Pastor Gary” was the guy who started the Backwards Masking Scare on the west coast and had a regular roadshow going round to all these churches, PROVING that all Secular Rock Music contains Satanic Backwards Messages; capped his show with “Stairway to Heaven” played backwards (with his own commentary pointing out the Secret Backwards Messages).
Well, the next day Rich started his show sounding very solemn and shaken. He said he’d gone through the station’s morgue and tried playing the records backwards and this was what he found:
“Here it says “He is Lord”:
“EEESSSSLLLODDDD…”
“Here it says ‘Satan is with You and Me'”:
“SSSSSSTTTTWWWWOOOOONNNNEEEEEEEE…”
“This is not Led Zeppelin. It is not Black Sabbath. It is… BENNY HESTER! Who I have on the phone right now…” then continued with shtick about Benny Hester’s spiritual conditon — “You’re not into the Occult, are you?”
They had a laugh out of that, but a couple weeks later neither of them were laughing. The story had gotten out to all True Christians that Benny Hester was into the Occult and had admitted it on the show. His career took a couple years to recover.
Friend wrote:
There’s a classic Web essay on the subject, “Christians and Conspiracy Theories”:
http://www.acts17-11.com/conspire.html
And a Top Ten list from non-Christian sources that’s been reprinted a few times:
http://www.alternet.org/belief/10-weirdest-fundamentalist-christian-conspiracy-theories
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Oh my, that is belly achingly funny! Christians , and people in general, sometimes get so tightly wound. Rich sounds like he was making fun of the foibles of some of the more zealous. Years ago I attended a revival at an IFB church, and the revivalist was funny and meant to be funny. He was a comedian. I can’t remember his name, except he was blind. Of all places, this was in a “denomination” where congregants have a reputation for really getting wound up tight. Wish people could laugh at the foibles of our humanity more. It is part of being nice to ourselves and nicer to each other.
Christians should be the most avid obeyers of the law, and its most avid proponents. Hiding behind the Bible to excuse such sin reveals cowardice on the part of the protectors of the perpetrators.
No wonder some churches are having trouble attracting and making disciples.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Great links, thank you!
I was very sorry not to learn who designed the equipment that bakes the word SEX on the back of Ritz crackers, though. 🙁
Mark wrote:
It’s like the dystopias of Eighties Cyberpunk SF. Where Civilization is melting down, and the only ones with the power and means to stop the meltdown are those who Personally Benefit from The Way Things Are. “There’s nothing wrong with the system; it Works Just Fine (for ME)!”
Beakerj wrote:
As if you don’t get enough of that Teaching from the world around you…
Wasn’t the Church supposed to be DIFFERENT from all that?
Don M wrote:
That’s how I see it, too.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t think this is the church…maybe a book club.
@ elastigirl:
Good point- I admit I was thinking more of the amount of bad stuff that we hear about in evangelicalism- it’s out of control. But that being said, I don’t subject myself to that underbelly anymore. There are plenty of kind people in this country and plenty of humble churches. My concern is when people are culturally nice rather than Christlike-ly kind, if that makes sense.
Lydia wrote:
Agreed, Which reminds me of:
Vance Havner on a Counterfeit Christianity: “The devil is not fighting religion. He´s too smart for that. He is producing a counterfeit Christianity, so much like the real one that good Christians are afraid to speak out against it.”
I think the Christian way to combat fear and maintain freedom is to stand firm in love and refuse to be intimidated by speaking out. However, I understand the psychological pressure not to. Absolutely agreed.