"I sincerely had hoped that this horrible situation Saeed has had to go through would bring about the spiritual change needed in both of us to bring healing to our marriage," she said. "Tragically, the opposite has occurred."
Naghmeh Abedini's Profile Picture on Facebook
No doubt you've heard the news… Saeed Abedini, the Christian pastor who was imprisoned in Iran in 2012, was finally released on January 16, 2016. The Christian community had been praying fervently that he would be freed, and often I would hear interviews with Saeed's wife, Naghmeh. Little did we know that Naghmeh was suffering in silence.
Apparently, there were serious problems in her marriage involving abuse and a pornography addiction (by her husband). Amid so much attention during Saeed's imprisonment, it must have extremely difficult for Naghmeh to admit to a watching world that her marriage was less than ideal.
Saeed Abedini arrived home in Boise yesterday afternoon and was reunited with his children, whom he had not seen in over three years. A joyful reunion with his wife will be much more of a challenge. Earlier today, Naghmeh Abedini published the following statement on Facebook (see screen shots below):
According to the local news in Boise, Idaho:
Naghmeh has filed legal papers in court regarding domestic relations. No official court date has been set in the case Naghmeh is filing.
The Baptist Press also confirmed that Naghmeh Abedini has taken legal action against her husband. The BP article states:
Naghmeh Abedini has taken legal action against her husband Saeed Abedini to make sure their children remain in Idaho while the couple works to save their marriage, and revealed on Facebook today (Jan. 27) scant details of alleged spousal abuse she called "a growing cancer."
Naghmeh Panahi (her maiden name) vs. Saeed Abedini was filed Jan. 26 in Ada County, Idaho, before Jill S. Jurries, magistrate judge for family law in the Fourth Judicial District of Idaho in Ada County. Described as a domestic relations case, it is identified on the Idaho State Judiciary website as case CV-DR-2016-01483, and is pending.
"I have taken temporary legal action to make sure our children will stay in Idaho until this situation has been resolved," she wrote on Facebook. "In very difficult situations sometimes you have to establish boundaries while you work toward healing."
She filed the case against the 35-year-old pastor as he returned to Boise Jan. 27 from the Billy Graham Conference Center at the Cove in Asheville, N.C., his first stop in the U.S. on Jan. 21 from Iran, where he had been unjustly imprisoned three-and-a-half years because of his Christian faith.
Apparently, Saeed had not yet mentioned his marriage publicly, but he has spoken about his imprisonment.
Please join with us in praying for Saeed and Naghmeh and especially for their children. Ironically, some of the most challenging days may lie ahead for them. We will continue to keep you updated on this story.
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So sad but so right and brave of her to take action to shield herself and her children. Standing with her in prayer!
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Please note that I was able to have the first comment while still actually having read your post.
I just don’t see the ‘fun’ of being first if one hasn’t even read the article….kind of hope you will be done wit all that soon….
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I had not had a chance to see your post until just a short time ago. So right on and important that you should post it now.
I know there are some who are critical of Dr Dobson (who is retired from Focus on the Family) but through the decades that pastors were silent about men being abusive and addictive to pornography, he was giving a clarion call to these problems. If he hadn't been on the National council on child pornography and gave a clarion call about how evil it is and how extensive it is, the council would have been buried in silence. He also spoke to women about "Love must be tough". If I recall correctly he was the only prominent Christian man at that time to bring these issues up.
These problems have not gone away nor been solved. Pray that we may be alert, discerning, and sensitive to those around us (and even those in the clergy) who are involved in these sorts of things.
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It would be nice to hear Saaed’s side of the story.
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@ Jerry:
It appears Saeed has been caught up in the evangelical celebrity complex (Franklin Graham) so we are likely to hear only managed content. Note that Franklin Graham's PR mouthpiece is Mark DeMoss, recently spinning the narrative for Mars Hill church during the Driscoll fiasco. Not to mention as the mouthpiece for Hillsong church in the follow up Driscoll fiasco. See a pattern here? If you are going to follow this story, put on a poncho and high boots because it is going to be coming down heavy.
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Someone with fewer PTSD triggers for living with a Good Christian Man for far too many years can answer Jerry.
Re James Dobson, he actually is a dreadful resource for abused women. This article lays out why. http://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2015/05/06/james-dobson-on-domestic-violence-women-deliberately-bait-their-husbands/
I really, really hope and pray that Nagmeh will insist on doing counseling work only with truly qualified professionals who specialize in abusive marriages. That means someone not only educated appropriately, but well trained in the dynamics of abuse.
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Also, where is Gram3? I miss her comments.
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@ BC:
James Dobson is his own worst enemy. He is a culture warrior who needs an enemy and demonizes his opponents in the process. He uses people and disposes of them. For example look at Ted Haggard. When Ted led the National Association of Evangelicals (ed.), James Dobson supported him when he was speaking out against gay marriage. When it was learned that he hired a gay prostitute and used drugs, James committed to helping him and then walked away. For me that was telling about James Dobson…his relationship with Ted Haggard and how he treated him after the fact. James Dobson loves the spotlight – it's what he lives for. Personally after watching him through the Obama years, I wonder how James Dobson would have lived in ancient Rome/Greece with all the perversions and cultural issues there. Not just him but many others as well.
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Persephone wrote:
I also discount what he says since I found out that he admitted in one of his books about hitting his dog with a belt.
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I was afraid this would happen as the abuse Saeed suffered in Iran would only fuel the fires of abusive rage. I am glad that Naghmeh is taking steps to safeguard herself and her children. It sounds like Saeed has also fallen prey to the celebrity pastor bug, insisting his wife follow his instructions for promoting him in public. I will be praying for revelation and healing for this family.
As to James Dobson, I have no respect for him after reading about his beating a twelve (ed.) pound dog with a belt, his view on child discipline which amounts to abuse and his hatred for gays and blaming women for being abused and having gay kids.
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Eagle wrote:
I won’t defend Dobson for either his relationship advice or his culture warring, but it’s not fair to make historical comparisons like this. Evangelicals of Dobson’s generation were raised with the assumption of a “Christian nation” whose cultural and external moral obligations were thought to be universal. Christians living in the Roman Empire were under no such delusions.
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I kind of wish Naghmeh hadn’t been so public with some of her allegations at this stage of things. And I sure would like to hear what Saeed has to say – seems odd that he hasn’t addressed this stuff at all…
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What kind of a Father is Saeed? I know that if I had not seen my children in three and a half years, my first stop in America would have been Boise and not the Billy Graham Conference Center. Plus, he stayed there for 6 days.
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My question is what kind of abuse was he inflicting while he was in prison? Was he beating her? How could he? He was being beat and he was nowhere near her. Was it verbal? Perhaps if they were talking on the phone? But how often were there conversations when he was in prison. Were these normal marital arguments or really abuse? Why not just hang up the phone? She alleges he was regularly consuming porn on his phone while in prison. First, how would she know this. Did she check his browsing history? Do Iranian jailers really allow a phone and do they really allow regular porn access to their prisoners? I have not yet seen where she has alleged that he beat her physically, and if this were all true, why is she so glad that her children are spending time with him. If her allegations are all true, wouldn’t you want your kids far from him. Too many unanswered questions. That is why to me it would be nice to hear from saeed or at the very least more specifics from her.
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@ Jerry:
Here is an excerpt from a Christianity Today article that may answer your first question:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/november-web-only/pastor-saeed-abedini-wife-naghmeh-halts-public-advocacy.html
The Abedinis were married in 2002, so a decade elapsed before Saeed was imprisoned.
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“I have taken temporary legal action to make sure our children will stay in Idaho until this situation has been resolved,” she wrote on Facebook.
Yikes. This makes me wonder what she thought he might or would probably do once he reestablished contact with them.
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@ NJ:
This may be the crux of the problem.
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Ok I see they spoke by skype or phone. But again, he really holds no power. He is locked up. Why not just hang up the phone or refuse to talk? What abuse was he inflicting over skype that she could not easily stop. I am not saying she is lying, it just doesn’t completely add up to me.
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@ Jerry:
Let's not discount their ten years of marriage before he was locked up.
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Thanks for this post. The wife’s Facebook post is well written.
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@ Jerry:
We were never meant to know. She shared this with her prayer group and one of them made it public. So I doubt your questions will ever be answered. It is almost impossible to explain to people what living with an emotional abuser is like. It is like living in a black OP and it can take years of separation to even begin to process normal.
To try and explain often makes it worse. In this case, she is not a sympathetic figure. My guess is the type of Christian community they are surrounded by, she wont have much support.
She will have to make a case why he should not be allowed to take the children out of Idaho. In the circumstances, that won’t be easy to do.
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I noticed when the news of Saeed's release was first put on the news, that when she was interviewed, she looked scared to me. She was happy for the kids, but there was a wariness about her face. I wandered at that point if something like this would happen. I personally applaud her for taking measures to keep the kids safe. We don't know the full story at this time, but my prayers are for her and the kids. As to going to a Billy Graham conference first before going home, that would make me pretty upset. I know we are supposed to put God first in our lives, but after being imprisoned for 3 1/2 yrs, you would think he couldn't wait to see his wife and kids. Obviously it wasn't so.
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Jerry,I hope you are not implying she is lying. I do NOT believe she is, and I know there are many like her who are living in painful silence. She is incredibly brave and incredibly wise to do what she is doing. And remember, this whole situation was leaked, not her fault that this originally got out to the public.
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@ Loren Haas:
This is a huge concern.
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If you read my post, I said I am not saying she is lying, there just certain aspects of her posts that don’t completely add up to me. So without further clarification, it is hard to understand some of the questions I raised. He certainly could have abused her for the first 10 years of their marriage. If it did occur, than she is certainly taking wise steps. Just not sure how the abuse and pornography allegations she made occurred while he was in prison. That part doesn’t add up to me.
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How did he have regular phone and internet access in an Iranian prison? He seems to have almost better accommodations than an American prison. My picture of an Iranian torture prison is much different than having unlimited phone internet access to indulge in porn and communicate with the outside world whenever I want. I have never been to an Iranian prison, but that isn't what I would have pictured in my head
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Eagle wrote:
He also seems to suffer from “Hardening of the Attitudes”.
And Has-Been CELEBRITY Syndrome. Being one of GOD’s GOP Kingmakers during the Reagan years, then on the outs with Billary (no nights in the Lincoln Bedroom for YOU!), then Holy Kingmaker again during Dubya Bush, then on the outs with the Obamanation of Desolation. In, Out, In, Out…
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Eagle wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhP-OUt1Eos (NSFW?)
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@ Jerry:
So, what you are saying is that you do not believe her unless it fully “adds up” to you? I hope you are not one of those typical men in the church who doubt reports of child sex abuse and domestic violence because you don’t know “all the facts.” In these sorts of situations, all the facts are rarely known since abuse rarely takes place in the presence of witnesses.
What you need to know is that the vast amount of these reports prove to be true in the long run. What motivation would she have to embarrass her family in the public eye. Most women find it difficult to report what has happened to them.
As for what happened while he was in prison, she is now saying what he was threatening her with on Skype. This man appears to have a serious anger and control problem and the church better get on the ball and call him to task after he recuperates.
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NJ wrote:
Remember ToJo?
Also factor in that Saeed is now a CELEBRITY, a Martyr/Hero of the Faith who’ll probably hit the Testimony/lecture/conference circuit. Giving him a Bully Media Pulpit that overwhelms anything his wife could say.
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Ken P. wrote:
Building his Brand and making the Connections for The Celebrity Comeback Trail?
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Jerry wrote:
Perhaps you are not keeping up with the news since this has been adequately answered in the media. Saeed, along with the other American prisoners, were not being treated like an average Iranian prisoner. They had access to Skype, etc.The US was involved in a deal to give the Iranian government a boat load of money and the Americans were treated better than most prisoners in Iran.
I have approved your comments because I plan to use them, along with others, to show how badly average church members respond when abuse is alleged. You make up a number of “gotcha” like “he was in a Iranian prison so he couldn’t have had access” without carefully looking into the situation.
You said said “I am not saying she is lying, there just certain aspects of her posts that don’t completely add up to me.” Think about it. The second part of the sentence negates the first. I call this the Christian zing.
You may disagree with us but we read about these situation extensively along with studying about the various aspects of domestic abuse. I highly suggest that you do the same. Please read A Cry for Justice about domestic violence in the church.
http://www.amazon.com/Cry-Justice-Anna-Wood-ebook/dp/B00CF12XN4/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1453992280&sr=1-1&keywords=a+cry+for+justice
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bunny wrote:
Jerry claims he is not in the first part of his sentence and negates this in the second part. It is the Christian zinger.
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Harley wrote:
I am wondering if there are some Christians who are trying to protect Naghmeh. Perhaps they brought him there to prepare him for the concerns that have been raised before he met her face to face.
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Jerry wrote:
Did you read this part of Naghmeh’s Facebook post?:
“Three months ago Saeed told me things he demanded I must do to promote him in the eyes of the public that I simply could not do any longer. He threatened that if I did not the results would be the end of our marriage and the resulting pain this would bring to our children.”</em)
Do you think she's lying, or do you think is it okay for evangelicals to use threats and blackmail to force their wives to promote their public images?
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Jerry wrote:
This comment alone means that you need to study the issues surrounding domestic abuse. Abuse can take many forms, including verbal.
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Nancy2 wrote:
Oops – I hit the wrong key at the end of the quote. The above is my question – not part of the quote!
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Niteowl wrote:
This is most insightful.
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@ Loren Haas:
I loved your comment. It made me smile.
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@ molly245:
Well done!!!!!
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@ Jerry:
Jerry, a few years ago, I was made aware of a very secret loose network of former pastors wives who were abused and left, leaving most destitute. They found each other on the internet and even use fake names with each other, they are that careful. Their husbands are believed and they live in constant fear of losing their children if they dare go public. So, they are known as bad women who left. Their husbands have hundreds of character witnesses. Much like Tony Jones had Rachel Held Evans by default. People listen to them.
Their former husbands have stages and stage personas that are loved by the pew sitters. And the followers will rally around them.
Abuse happens in secret. Abusers are some of the most clever people in the world who live double lives.
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dee wrote:
Not only that but how she had been conditioned over the years to respond. This stuff is incredibly psychological and add in certain comp doctrines and it becomes a Gospel issue to submit and make everything OK. Even though it isn’t.
Here, judges will often give 3 year mandatory separation when there is violence involved, too. It is uncanny how that works. It can take that long to deprogram from what was the normal. Without that, women will go right back, usually.
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Jerry wrote:
She has said in a more recent story that he was threatening to divorce her if she didn’t play along with whatever he wanted (including advocating for him in public).
Maybe she was afraid that hanging up on him would cause similar repercussions.
I was verbally abused by a few family members for many years, even now, especially my older sister.
Some of her verbal abuse took place over the phone. I didn’t start hanging up on her during her verbal tirades until recently. I don’t know if this is true of Naghmeh or not, but in my case (which may be true of her), I was brought up by a mother who believed very strongly in traditional gender roles (gender complementarianism).
That involved her believing that women should be polite to a fault and endure discomfort and abuse from people; be un-assertive; lack boundaries.
I was taught by my mother it would be un-loving and rude to slam the phone down on anyone, even in the midst of verbal abuse.
So for years, I endured long, ranty, profanity laced, terribly insulting, hurtful phone calls off my sister, though those calls were painful and hard to take, and I did not enjoy them at all. Perhaps Naghmeh was raised to have similar views of how women should behave, even in the face of abuse.
On top of that, a lot of Christian women are taught to view their husband as their ‘head,’ authority, or boss, so they are to submit to the guy, no matter how horrible he is behaving. Maybe there is an element of that in their relationship.
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@ dee:
There was also a ton of doubt in his post about her.
I’ve read this is a big reason why a lot of people – women who are in abusive marriages, kids who are sexually (or physically) abused, or women who have been sexually assaulted, often do not report it to the police, friends, families, because they will be grilled and assumed to be liars or exaggerating, while people go out of the way to give the accused (the abuser) a huge benefit of the doubt.
Even after 30, 40, 50 some odd women (I have lost count) came out publicly to tell their stories about Bill Cosby, some still refused (and to this day refuse) to believe that Cosby may have sexually assaulted anyone.
Shedding Light on Bill Cosby & Why Sexual Assault Victims Are Not Believed
http://nomore.org/bill-cosby-bad-week/
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I took some heat for posting the article about his abuse of her on FB the day that people were going nuts over his release. My post was pretty well balanced too- I just wanted people to remember the whole story and not deify the man. Nevertheless, I got a private email suggesting that posting the story was distracting from the larger cause that was pastors suffering for their faith.
That email (from a trusted friend) really hurt my heart.
More directly on subject, this whole situation has me cautious to talk about it. I want people to be careful about supporting this man while not putting his wife in a difficult spot. Making big news about her private emails that were made public without her consent makes me uncomfortable. While I think many of us know where this is headed, she needs the space to work that out. I don’t want to sacrifice her well being in the name of highlighting the abuse.
Reading her FB page has been a trip down memory lane. Trying to support my ex-wife while at the same time trying to protect myself from her. Trying to have a gracious spirit and push for reconciliation. That was a lot for me to work through, and I see her working through it carefully and slowly. I wish it was more clear how the Christian community could support her well during this time when she is processing all of this. If only it could be more private, but her husband’s fame is going to make that difficult.
She appears to be a very strong woman.
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@ Jerry:
Just stop. Learn more about abuse before you presume to know what it’s like to be in her shoes and what normal behavior is when you are the victim of abuse. Nothing she said or has done is out of sync with what you would expect of someone in her position.
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dee wrote:
This is also very true in regards to verbal abuse.
I had noticed starting a few years ago (upon reflection) that the only times my sister verbally abused me is when we were alone.
She was only okay in lashing out at me in front of her other victim, her boyfriend (they lived together).
But (and this was very disconcerting to me), in front of our parents, aunts, etc, she would act very pleasant and friendly towards me.
I then read a book about verbal abuse, not too long ago, who confirmed that in all her years of study on the topic and seeing patients, most of the time, most verbal abusers only abuse in private.
(Her book dealt mostly with married couples, but is applicable to other relationships.)
If and when a visitor stays with the couple for a visit, the victim spouse reported to her that the abuser was on his best behavior, the abuse stopped. But the moment the visitor leaves and they are alone again, the verbal abuse resumes.
I would imagine this is also true of other types of abuse.
The abuser comes across as a pillar of society to members of his church, his workplace, and neighbors, and only shows his mean streak in private to his target (which is usually the spouse).
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Dee I did not say she was lying. I said there were things that didn’t add up. The 2nd comment doesn’t negate the first. Saying she is lying is saying that I 100 percent know she is lying. The second sentence says there are statements that don’t make sense to me and need more clarification from saeed or her. She may be telling the truth. That is not a Christian zinger, that is just using common sense.
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Niteowl wrote:
My thoughts exactly.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This sort of thing bothers me on another level: a lot of evangelicals ignore or despise regular people and regular people struggles and testimonies.
If you’re an average guy doing your best to live for Christ, churches don’t care about you, your problems, or your testimony.
They are almost always parading these more extreme cases on their TV shows or in churches.
It’s always people who were former gang members, I’ve seen a few ex- mafia men interviewed by Christian shows (the ex mafia guys are Christians now), or ex- strippers.
You have to be this person with a radical past to count in a lot of churches.
I don’t know how average joes who are Non-Christians are supposed to relate to the sensational testimonies and be won for Christ. (If that’s even the goal of churches featuring such testimonies).
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Lydia wrote:
I am related to one or two (my sister is one). I didn’t even realize until a year or two ago that she was a bully / verbal/emotional abuser.
I even had some online friends warn me several years ago that she was abusive, but I was so in denial or whatever back then, I could not believe it. Now I see what they mean, though.
Sometimes you can be a target of abuse and not even realize what you are going through is abuse until years later.
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Dee & Deb,
Is there any way you can find out if Gram3 is okay?
Lots of people have made comments about her not being around here lately. Since she was such an involved commenter, I have wondered if she is okay physically ….. Starting to worry, as I am sure others are.
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There are some things about the whole Iran thing that do not seem to line up also. I am thinking that if this man is what his wife says he is, and if he continued abusive behavior while in prison even, then perhaps some of the things the Iranians accused him of could perhaps been justified accusations. I do remember that apparently time after time US diplomacy did not get anywhere in this case, and while this may or may not be significant I think we need to take a step back and listen if the Iranians want to tell their side of the story.
And yes, I know it is Iran, but still…..
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Jeff S wrote:
I agree.
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Jerry wrote:
Yes, it does and it is obvious to many of those reading your comments that you are suspicious of Naghmeh. If this is not your intent, then you need to think about how you are communicating.
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@ Nancy2:
I will try to contact her through her registered email right now.
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Jeff S wrote:
Bingo. That sums it up nicely.
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okrapod wrote:
Two things that makes me wonder: Saeed was born in Iran and he was a Muslim before converting to Christianity. I’m not insinuating that all Muslim men are a abusive. But, for the most part, Muslims seem to have a very low regard for women.
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@ dee:
Thank you!
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@ Nancy2:
I sent her an email and will let you all know when I hear from her.
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Jeff S wrote:
The “larger cause” is a pastor suffering for their faith? His wife suffering abuse by her pastor husband is not worth being concerned about. That is a really sad example of the state of Christianity and it’s desire for attention and celebrity. And for what? I just don’t see God being interested in His name in the lights or on billboards or being used to prop up men who want celebrity and fame for themselves. God does not need it . . . or do most people think He does need and want that kind of fame and celebrity like a rock star?
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I think there is a lot of difference of opinion as to what constitutes verbal abuse. For example, you were snappy with me once and the fact that you were sick at the time is no excuse-is not abuse IMO. You cut me to ribbons emotionally on a habitual basis is certainly abuse. But the issue comes as to where to draw the line, and I am thinking this can be quite a problem.
And, frankly, we see different cultures right here in the US who act differently with each other. That makes it more complicated. Who in this nation is going to tell whom where to draw the lines of definition as to what constitutes verbal abuse? Like Nancy2 mentioned there is also the history of islam in this situation. Within islam, at least on paper, there do seem to be some ideas that we do not agree with in this area.
I hope she gets it solved. My opinion is that it is probably worse than we know at this point. And I would be interested in hearing from Saeed and from Iran.
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dee wrote:
Some of his concerns have already been addressed.
You explained to him that some of the verbal abuse or kinky web site stuff he was viewing was via Skype or a cell phone he had.
I’ve already explained in a post or two for him how verbal abuse works, and why a verbally abused person may not hang up the phone during a verbal lashing.
I can understand if this guy thinks some parts of Naghmeh’s story sound odd (i.e., questions like, “how is it possible someone in a jail in Iran be abusing his wife in the USA”), but it sounds like he is actively trying to avoid believing her. As though he does not want to believe she may be telling the truth.
He says he thinks she’s not lying, so what is he saying, he thinks she is deliberately misleading? Leaving facts out? She’s exaggerating things?
What would she have to gain from misleading, exaggerating or intentionally painting her husband in a bad light?
I think someone else here mentioned her private correspondence about the abuse was leaked to the public by someone else (not her).
I don’t know quite how the Iranian prison system works, but American inmates in America get access to weight lifting yards, television shows, and dirty magazines and libraries.
Maybe Iranian prisons have some perks and benefits like that too. Someone already said that was true of American prisoners in Iran, they got special treatment.
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As I said in a comment yesterday, if four years in an Iranian prison didn’t cause Pastor Abedini to reflect and repent regarding abuse of his wife and porn addiction … nothing will. I truly hope that genuine repentance and reconciliation will flow in this case, but Naghmeh’s assessment at this point causes me to doubt “I sincerely had hoped that this horrible situation Saeed has had to go through would bring about the spiritual change needed in both of us to bring healing to our marriage. Tragically, the opposite has occurred.”
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okrapod wrote:
If you’d like an definition of what constitutes verbal abuse, please see the book
The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans:
https://books.google.com/books?id=XWgxgogz3aAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
Here are a few highlights of what verbal abuse can consist of:
Verbal abuse is not just an occasional, or one-off, nasty comment by a person to another.
Verbal abuse is characterized as a pattern, and it comes in different varieties. Verbal abuse is usually done in private, with no witnesses to hear/ see it.
Verbal abusers are like physical abusers, in that they are using verbal abuse as a means of controlling another person, they are not just lashing out momentarily because they had a bad day at their job today.
While verbal abuse can involve name calling and put downs, there are other, more subtle types of verbal abuse, which Evans describes in her book.
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Some of my questions were addressed in the links you provided. My questions were legitimate. They did cast some doubt in my mind. And you have answered some of my questions, which was helpful. However, I don’t believe every time the term abuse is thrown out there. I have personally seen several situations where woman have thrown the term abuse out there in order to gain custody, and I was intimately involved enough in the situation to know that if any one was verbally abusive in that relationship it was the woman. Some times the accuser is a manipulative liar. It happens. It seems that she still wants her marriage intact, so I doubt that is the case here. The questions I had about the Iranian prison were legitimate and if he was given those freedoms, than that would answer my doubt, but having the doubt when I hear about the atrocities committed on prisoners in Iran, is not unfounded.
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Jerry wrote:
You may want to read the Foreward to this book (see page 12; the author notes that it’s usually men who are the verbal abusers, not women):
The Verbally Abusive Relationship
https://books.google.com/books?id=XWgxgogz3aAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
In my family, one of my verbal abusers is a woman (my sibling).
However, in marriages (of theone man, one woman variety), it would appear it’s usually the husband, not the wife, though some wives can be verbally abusive to husbands.
I’m reading in between the lines here, but you seem to be saying you don’t believe women who claim to be abused by their husbands.
Your sympathy and initial hunch is to think women crying “abuse” are faking it, exaggerating -?
Why would any woman who is being abused by her husband (or any kid being abused by a preacher) want to confide in anyone about her abuse, or report it to the police, with attitudes like this going on?
Someone else already pointed out her claims of abuse were said in private (in an e-mail or facebook note or something), and one of her circle released her private note to the public.
So, she wasn’t even releasing this information to the broad public.
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Jeff S wrote:
“You can’t make an omelet without cracking a few eggs.” — Stalin
For the Cause, Comrade.
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As I said most of my doubts were to her claims of abuse while he was in prison.. If he had those modern coveniences, than my questions are answered. Woman sometimes want to fake it because they want to gain power in the situation. I.e. Custody. Again I have seen this happen. I am not saying this is the case most of the time. But it is the case some of the time.
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Daisy wrote:
Because he’s a CELEBRITY(TM)!
And has had close to 50 years to Build his Brand.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I hope this is not off topic, but with the influx of a million refugees into Germany over the last year, overwhelmingly muslims, there is a very real problem of the ‘attitude problem’ of young muslim men in particular to western girls.
The mass groping of New Year’s Eve in Cologne is well-known, but there is anecdotal evidence of this being much more widespread than this, including problems in schools.
Of course this is not universally true of all muslims, but Merkel seems to losing touch with reality as what is happening on the ground, and this is becoming a real cause for concern. What you would like to believe is the case, and what is actually the case can be two very different things, and a kind of mis-lead idealism can be dangerous. It’s a case of those in authority not wanting to believe anything serious is amiss.
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Jerry wrote:
Jerry, you need to read some Phyllis Chessler. The truth is over 70% of fathers who go for custody, win. The bottom line is few fathers go for custody. So when they do, the onus is on the mother to prove her worth. It is a myth that fathers are not awarded custody. The truth is few fathers fight for it.
And some kids need to be with the father. There are abusive women out there, too.
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dee wrote:
Do you have a source for this? I have never met either Naghmeh or her husband. I have no idea what went on between the two of them. This story is so bizarre that I don’t know what to believe.
The abuse worsened when he was in prison? Seems odd. He doesn’t immediately go home to see his kids? Seems odd. The specific instance of verbal abuse I have seen is that he threatened her with divorce if she didn’t continue to advocate for him. She then stops advocating for him and upon his release files for divorce? seems odd.
I am more than willing to admit I have doubts about both of their stories and that does not mean I am insensitive to abuse victims.
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Lydia wrote:
Successful abusers (like successful serial killers, pedophiles, and sociopaths) are Grand Masters of Camouflage. If they weren’t, they’d have been exposed and caught years ago. We only hear about the dumb ones who slip up.
“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
Successful Abusers and Pedophiles groom not only their victims, but third-party allies (like 5000 Facebook Friends or fans/groupies). Especially third parties who are in any position of authority over them and their victim (who could stop them). They’ve already been carefully carefully groomed (sometimes over a period of years) to back the abuser and join ranks against the victim.
“Go ahead and squeal, tattle-tale! Nobody will ever believe you! Because you’re The Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!”
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Jerry wrote:
Just often enough to dirty the waters. Just often enough that you can’t automatically side with the woman every time.
And the styles of abuse differ. Men are more likely to be direct and physical. Women are more likely to be indirect and psychological. And there are ways (generally called Mind Games) to utterly destroy your victim as a functioning human being without ever making physical contact, raising your voice, or being anything but Sweet and oh-so-Polite.
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@ Daisy:
My point is not whether some books have been written on the subject. My point is that we have cultural differences in this very country and people are not about to let somebody else tell them what to think. In our town we have at least three subcultures that I know of who practice and apparently condone interpersonal and domestic behaviors that some of the rest of us find offensive. Not illegal, just offensive. This issue is not easily solved at this point.
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The name “Saeed Abedini” does not imply someone whose American background/acculturation goes back several generations. If Saeed is “Old Country”, whether Christian or Muslim, he would have been raised/immersed/acculturated in a surrounding traditional culture where Men Rule and Women Submit. (Up to and including “Woman! Do as I say or I Beat You!”) Growing up with an attitude like that is very hard to change.
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Bridget wrote:
Just to be clear (and fair to him, even though I disagree), the “larger cause” is pastors (not this single pastor) around the globe suffering persecution.
But I don’t see how telling the truth about this man does injustice to those being persecuted. Which was my response to him.
It was a very sad exchange of emails for me. 🙁
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@ Jerry:
We have all seen situations like you describe, and some of us here have been unjustly accused of various things ourselves, if not abuse something else. Once one has themselves been unjustly accused their outlook on how to consider allegations changes.
I too do not automatically believe every accusation of abuse, but I do take them all very seriously and I do think that they all need to be investigated. No claim of abuse should be dismissed out of hand and prior to adequate investigation. And no accused person should automatically be declared guilty prior to adequate investigation.
This case looks credible. Evidence will surely be forthcoming. Both sides will be heard. In the meantime it should not be swept under the rug without good evidence for doing that. Pooh pooh is not a good response at this time in this situation.
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Jerry wrote:
It is the case some of the time. But not most of the time.
And yet, if you read articles about this and check out the comments, 90% are either questioning her truthfulness or outright accusing her of making this up to dump her husband for a new man- an idea completely fabricated out of thin air by people who would rather believe something with no basis rather than consider that a martyr could be an abuser.
It is hard, VERY hard, for people who are abused to come forward. No wonder, since most are questioned or attacked just for trying to stand up for themselves.
Remember, all an abuser asks is that we do nothing. A victim asks that we get involved and take sides. Most people prefer to not be involved and do nothing. Most people prefer to let the abuser have his way. It’s comfortable. It’s non-invasive. It lets us go one with our lives. It lets us have our heroic narratives.
Victims burst all of that. They tell us our heroes are not heroic. That our causes aren’t snow white. That we have failed to be a group of people as pure as we once thought. That we have misjudged the goodness of those we hold in high regard
Of course in the end we do have to dig in if we are going to take sides, but firing questions as victims out of the gate shouldn’t be our first response.
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Jerry wrote:
I found the following article – keeping in mind the possible quality or lack thereof of info found on the internet, and whether or not it has any applicability to this particular situation.
From: http://www.religionandspirituality.com/view/post/12039206976500/Inside_Irans_prison_hell/
Monday, February 25, 2008 at 1:01am
Inside Iran’s prison hell
Excerpts:
“Political prisoners are allowed five to 10 minutes for phone calls between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m. Tehran time. Phone privileges must be arranged daily and are affected by the number of prisoners signing up and whom they call outside Iran.”
“Someone wanting to speak for a longer period of time can request up to one hour, borrowing or buying time from another prisoner. Allowance varies from prison to prison. ”
“Prisoners are not denied phone privileges as often as people like to believe, because this is where the regime gets raw information.”
“When a prisoner is uncooperative, phone privileges may be revoked. Cooperative prisoners are routinely granted longer conversations with radio or TV shows by the prison head. Some prisoners favored by the IRI Intel in the last few years are known to carry cell phones and have Internet access in their room. “
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I seem have come across as insensitive to victims of abuse. I apologize. I agree that every report of abuse should be investigated and should be taken seriously. It was not my intention to imply otherwise.
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okrapod wrote:
Exactly. I did not get the impression that Jerry was dismissing anything out of hand. He merely said that something doesn’t quite seem to add up, which is an impression that I share. All we’ve heard is one voice.
For all we know, Saeed is a monster. Or maybe Naghmeh is a scheming schemer. The operative phrase being, of course, ‘for all we know’. We really don’t know much of anything (and at this point, why should we), and we’re running all over the place with it.
These people are in a very fragile and vulnerable state. In my opinion, they should be keeping this private, but then, I’m an old-fashioned boy.
A man is not ‘men’, a woman is not ‘women’, a couple is not ‘couples’. In the lack of information, we are indulging in the classic error of logical typing here.
In any case, this couple has been through the wringer…
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Pythagoras wrote:
Did she file for divorce or legal separation? Have you ever worked with abused women who were living in fear of death, loss of livlehood, loss of children, loss of reputation? There is no “normal” response when a man or a woman is trying to disengage from an abuser. Her actions seem reasonable if she has fear of some sort.
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Pythagoras wrote:
That this was one specific detail mentioned does not mean there was not other instances and types of verbal abuse taking place.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think there is also a tendency for people not to want to believe that a popular or famous figure is capable of abuse.
Nobody wants to believe that lovable, affable TV dad Dr. Huxtable in his soft and fuzzy sweaters, the guy who pitched Jello in commercials, sexually assaults women, but there you go, many women claim that he did so in real life. A lot of them claim so.
People sometimes have a hard time thinking of regular, friendly looking guys as being wackos or abusers, which may explain how Ted Bundy lured so many women into his car.
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sgage wrote:
They were keeping it private. Someone outside the two of them released the information without their knowledge.
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@ Daisy:
I agree.It is however the only one specifically claimed.
It is certainly possible that lots of verbal abuse was taking place. It is also certainly possible that no verbal abuse was taking place. My point is that I don’t know. You may have much more specific information than I do.
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Pythagoras wrote:
Thus far, she has consistently pushed for reconciliation. She has not filed for divorce. She has filed, as near as I can tell, to prevent the children from being re-located. She has specifically said it was not for divorce.
Even at that, it wasn’t about divorce. It was about a husband threatening a wife. When he said “Do [xyz] or I will divorce you”, that is abusive, even if the wife WANTS the divorce (which, thus far, she doesn’t).
In my own life, my wife threatened me with divorce in order to control me. She told me “either I will leave or just kill myself”. At that point, I already wanted divorce, but I was fighting it because I did not think it was the Godly thing to do. The pain *that* statement cause was unbelievable, especially given how hard I was working to try to make things right. Not because I didn’t want to divorce, but because the person I was doing my best to serve and treat with kindness was trying around and using threats to force me to obey her.
The point is, abuse is about trying to control another person. Loving husbands and wives don’t do that. They don’t say “do [xyz] or else”. It shows a power and an entitlement on his side, and that she exists in his mind to serve him and meet his needs.
Hopefully, thinking about it this way will show it is less odd than it might at first appear.
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Bridget wrote:
That is unfortunate, and out of line on the part of whoever released the info.
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@ okrapod:
The book explains the dynamics of the situation and what constitutes abuse.
I don’t care about cultural differences. In some situations, they are irrelevant. Abuse remains abuse, regardless of country of origin or different religions.
That persons in ‘religion X’ or ‘nation Z’ think that a man routinely threatening his wife verbally or putting her down daily is acceptable does not excuse the behavior or make it moral.
I’ve read reports in the news over the past month that some of the Muslim refugees overseas have been fondling western women in public, supposedly because they believe non-consensual touching is okay.
I’m not going to allow those individuals off the hook for this by saying, “it’s a cultural difference, so it’s okay; who am I to judge, or to enforce my cultural standards on them,” or what not.
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Pythagoras wrote:
These possibilities are not equal in probability. It is far more likely that she was telling the truth and correctly reporting the abuse she sustained. She has very little to gain by making this up, and a lot to lose by doing it.
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Pythagoras wrote:
Why do there have to be more specific incidents reported for us to believe the wife?
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Folks…..She was separated for almost FOUR YEARS and in that time she got strong enough to say…enough!
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Jeff S wrote:
But why are we even talking about probabilities? We have essentially no facts. It’s just speculation. Can’t we wait until the facts come out before we pile on? Something about this whole thread is a bit troubling to me…
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sgage wrote:
I can’t find where I said that. What am I missing here?
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Bridget wrote:
1) She filed for legal separation, in most states this functions in practice like a divorce but without a dissolution of the marriage. Assets and debts are not yet divided up.
2) Yes I have worked with abused women and men. I disagree that there is no “normal” response for someone trying to disengage from an abuser. In fact some of her actions are quite “normal” e.g. filing for separation, filing temporary restraining orders etc. especially if she is in fear. However the only person who at risk of losing their reputation, livelihood, or children seems to be the husband.
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Pythagoras wrote:
However the only person who at risk of losing their reputation, livelihood, or children seems to be the husband.
You don’t think she’s at risk to lose all of these things?
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okrapod wrote:
Not you personally, okrapod – I’m talking about the general tenor of this thread. Please note that I began my post by quoting you in order to agree with you!
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Lydia wrote:
Lemme try an’ get this (the short fact version) straight. Naghmeh shares all this stuff with her ‘prayer group’ and one of them betrays that confidence by going public with their marital dirt? If this is indeed true, I hope Naghmeh’s learned a valuable real-life lesson about fundagelical ixtianity. And to the brainless twit (if it’s indeed true) who couldn’t keep his or her trap shut, I hope you’re happy, and that your ‘walk with the lord’ is strengthened. (gag).
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Jeff S wrote:
I’m not sure how you could quantify the probabilities but if you have done the math I believe you. I am also not sure how I could know what she has to gain or lose or if that even matters.
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sgage wrote:
It’s not speculation that she has alleged the abuse. She has said it, now we have to decide how to respond. To do nothing is to side with the abuser. Because all an abuser asks is for people to do nothing.
Thus far she has asked us for nothing other than prayer. And to believe her.
I don’t see a lot of “piling on”, but I do see people reacting to ill framed questions that would “pile on” the pain to a woman who is very likely the victim of domestic abuse were she to read them.
Perhaps you could be more specific about what in this thread is troubling you? It’s difficult to explain or discuss “something”.
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Jeff S wrote:
If she is telling the truth she is not at risk at losing any of those things. If she was making false allegations she would be at very little risk of losing those things because of the nature of verbal abuse. It occurs most often in private. It is rarely recorded, rarely written and rarely witnessed. As such it would be impossible to prove your innocence of such an accusation which would leave the false accuser’s reputation intact. PLEASE NOTE: I don’t think she is making false allegations. I also don’t think her husband is an abuser. I DON’T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!
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Daisy wrote:
Social media is mega dangerous. My a grandkids’ school had a session on this for the kids.
And then there is a line from Kipling: ‘If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools…’ So people have to ‘tell all’ in an attempt to escape that sort of twisting of what they have said, and at that point things can get totally out of hand. Good grief. This poor woman.
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Niteowl wrote:
Karma and her sister Comeuppance are relentless, and like terminators from the future, they cannot be reasoned with. Nor will they stop until Themis’ balances are reset.
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Jeff S wrote:
What’s troubling to me is that we have not heard one word from the husband, and yet he’s accused, tried, and convicted. What’s troubling me is that we’re applying ‘probabilities’ to an individual case. What’s troubling me is the politicization of a couple that has been through incredible stress, who are unique human beings, and not examples of this or that. If you don’t see the piling on, you are among those who have already tried and convicted the husband, a man from whom we have heard nothing. On the basis of what, ‘probabilities’? That’s not justice.
NOBODY is saying Naghmeh is lying. We just need to hear from the other side. Actually, we don’t. These people some time out of the limelight to work things out (or not).
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@ abigail:
And I think she is very wise. BOTH of them have probably changed a great deal in the last 4 years. Depending on your point of view, both may have changed in good or bad ways. I think protecting herself legally in case the changes are bad, is very smart.
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Pythagoras wrote:
It’s not math- it’s statistic: most allegations of abuse are true. Not all, but the majority. And it stands to reason. Our culture hates victims. We punish people for being victims and scrutinize them in the worst way. It takes guts and/or desperation to put yourself out there. And even this woman didn’t do it by choice- someone made her private communication public. We’d have never known about this (and likely shouldn’t have) until the time she found it necessary to file for divorce.
As far as what she has to gain or lose? What anyone has to gain or lose. It isn’t rocket science. Respect. Financial security. Community. Friends. Even when they are believed, those who claim abuse suffer great loss. When they aren’t, it’s even worse.
This is a man in the position of power. Revered as a hero. The subject of much celebration. In the spotlight. And she has . . . what power? Not much. Just read the comments on any of the stories about this. People are already pre-disposed to mistrust her and “side” with her husband.
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abigail wrote:
Amen! Sometimes it takes a long time like it does for deprogramming from a cult. When clarity is achieved, action to separate normally follows.
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Jerry wrote:
She spoke in one article of demands he began making of her- demands to promote him in certain ways that demanded dishonesty of her. He threatened divorce if she did not and also threatened her with the guilt of how it would harm their children if she did not do as he instructed.
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sgage wrote:
Read the comments or talk to people about this. Most of the comments side with him and assume she is making it up.
sgage wrote:
When someone claims abuse, we as the community HAVE to react. This doesn’t mean we rush to judgement, but we cannot ignore it either. We are bound to protect and defend victims. Again, to do nothing is to side with the abuser. Always. So we can’t do nothing and claim to be impartial.
sgage wrote:
I agree, this is troubling. I wish this had not gotten the public exposure that it has, and I don’t want her to become locked into a “symbol” for anything. It’s a tough line to walk with her husband so visibly in the spotlight.
sgage wrote:
Not “tried and convinced”. The one thing I have done is to give her statement credibility, and warn other of the praise we may heap on her husband. No one has convinced the husband. As far as I know, he is still free and enjoying great publicity and respect from many.
sgage wrote:
On the basis of having seen and heard victims of abuse go through this time and time again and knowing what they need is to be believed.
sgage wrote:
Doing nothing when someone needs our help can hardly be considered justice.
sgage wrote:
Actually, a lot of people are saying exactly this. Perhaps not on this page, but elsewhere on the web? Yep.
sgage wrote:
And if he has the power and she does not, who does this favor? It isn’t her. This is how abused women lose their children. Because good people stand aside and say “we don’t know, we won’t take sides”. Remember, if he is an abuser, all he wants is for you to ignore it and let him do what he will. It’s only victims that ask others to get involved.
And really, she hasn’t, other than prayer, but what will we do when/if she does?
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Pythagoras wrote:
Wrong. I was the subject of abuse, and I was *believed* and I still lost my entire social network (tied up in my church).
And I was the lucky one because I got to keep my child and I had a good job.
I’ve communicated with many abused women who were telling the truth who were ex-communicated, lost their children, lost their material possessions, and more.
The truth is no protection against the great loss that comes from claiming to be a victim.
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Here are a couple articles which give a bit more information, for those who are having a hard time understanding how an imprisoned man could be abusive:
http://www.religionnews.com/2016/01/23/wife-of-u-s-pastor-imprisoned-in-iran-hopes-to-rebuild-marriage-saeed-naghmeh-abedini/?utm_content=buffere1af2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Later, she said, the couple communicated directly on a
number of occasions by phone or Skype. During that time, Naghmeh
said, her husband became increasingly abusive, possibly because
of his long confinement. She declined to elaborate on the
nature of the abusive behavior.
….
During most of her husband’s time in prison, Abedini served
as the public face of the campaign for his release. But their
private conversations, she said, became ever more fraught.
“I just couldn’t understand – the more I fought for him the
more abusive he was becoming,” she said.
http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/2016/01/27/naghmeh-abedini-releases-public/79401320/
Tragically, the opposite has occurred. Three months ago Saeed told me things he demanded I must do to promote him in the eyes of the public that I simply could not do any longer. He threatened that if I did not the results would be the end of our marriage and the resulting pain this would bring to our children.
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so… my take on these things is, abuse is about control.
He was trying to control her, to force her to do things she was not comfortable with. He did not need to be with her in person to seek to control her. It would appear to me he was using intimidation and threats in their conversations, to force her to do what he wanted her to do, demanding she do what was against her own conscience.
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Jeff S wrote:
Oh, bingo again. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate your insights. Our culture does not even recognize the fact that it hates victims. This makes it very easy for deceivers who are darn good at what they do.
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@ Muff Potter:
I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I read that. I warn my kids about this all the time. That is the LAST place I would share anything of that nature. Now we might understand why she is in a very hard and awkward place. And even though it can take years to debrief from abuse with a spouse, heap on betrayal by a “prayer group person” you trusted with your tragic “pearls”.
Sorry, I could not help thinking a biblically thing: Pearls before Swine.
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Jerry wrote:
When you say, “woman sometimes want to fake it” that is stating “sometimes the woman is lying” which implies,”maybe Naghmeh is lying”.
When you say, “most of my doubts”, you are implying that she is not being truthful.
“If you read my post, I said I am not saying she is lying, there just certain aspects of her posts that don’t completely add up to me.”
If “don’t completely add up” to you is NOT implying she is lying, then what does it imply?
Bottom line from your own words, you think she’s lying (in whole or in part). You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but at least own it.
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One other observation I might make…
Saeed Abedini is an extremely strong willed man. Just look at how he got himself into being imprisoned in the first place. One might actually say he had courted his own imprisonment, going back and doing what he knew was going to end badly, after former experiences/close calls.
He is a man with a mission. He knows where he wants to be, what he wants to achieve. He has connections to the power brokers, the mouthpieces in the Christian community. He appears to me to be a man who intends to make the most of all of these things.
I do not judge or assess his motives; his motivations are between him and God.
But I do not find it hard to believe that he expects his wife to support his goals, regardless of her own convictions, and I do not find it hard to believe that he could be extremely strong willed and controlling.
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Pythagoras wrote:
2 words: Tony Jones.
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I did own it. I said the parts about the imprisonment didn’t add up to me, which caused me to doubt her story. I didn’t know if she was lying or not, but those facts were causing me to have some doubt. I needed more facts. If conditions in prison were as I thought they were, her whole story would have been full of holes. If he was really allowed access to modern conveniences in prison (i.e. internet access and phone, and Skype) than that answers many of my doubts. As I said, I needed more facts.
But as a general rule, I disagree with the notion that just because a woman accuses a man of abuse than it is definitely abuse. It often is, but sometimes it is not. There are lying and scheming woman that use the “term abuse” as a club to gain control in custody. I have seen it with my own eyes. Woman are no less sinful than men. I have seen many verbally abusive women, and I have seen verbally abusive men. It is not gender specific. I don’t know that it happens more to woman or not. I would assume most men don’t admit to being verbally abused. It isn’t very macho to say I am being abused by my wife.
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@ siteseer:
I think you are correct. But since nobody knows exactly what he is accused of wanting her to do within that framework nobody can determine whether he was within reasonable limits to expect that of her or whether what he wanted was so unreasonable as to be abusive. And that is why I think we have to make no judgment calls about anything at this point. Maybe never. It is her call, and the court’s call, not ours.
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jerry wrote:
True. And I don’t believe anyone here is advocating the position that when a woman accuses a man it is definitely abuse. Or when anyone accuses at all.
What I *do* think people are advocating is that we should give those in a position of weakness some measure of trust (to be verified) when they get up the courage to ask for help.
Statistically, it is true that men are abusers more often than women, though I suspect this is in large part due to our culture, in which men are implicitly in a position of power. But that does not mean that men are never victims.
I present myself as a victim of abuse, and while I endured some skepticism due to being a man (and boy, that skepticism does hurt, most than you know if you haven’t experienced it), I have largely been embraced by those here and on similar sites. I will say, though, that what I endured was far less than what most women I’ve talked with have, simply because of that aforementioned culture where men are implicitly in a position of power. Even when my church abandoned me, I still had financial stability, which many abused women do not. And when people saw me as a single father with custody, I was granted insta-credibility (“What a great father he must be!”) rather than what many single mothers receive (“Why couldn’t she hold on to her man?”).
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@ Lydia:
I really appreciate your kind words.
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Jeff, You said statistically men are more often abusers. Are we talking about physical abusers or verbal or emotional abusers? I would agree men are more physically abusive because they are stronger. But how do you know that men are more verbally or emotionally abusive? Where did they gather that data? Are the reports just saying that more women report the abuse? Again, most men don’t report being verbally and emotionally abused because they would be mocked and ridiculed and emasculated. It isn’t “manly”. That’s my impression anyways. How would you statistically measure that men are more emotionally abusive.
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okrapod wrote:
This is where I will disagree. It doesn’t matter what he expected of her. The point is that he threatened her for non-compliance.
If you threaten divorce for something even completely reasonable, then you have crossed a line into abuse.
The only reasonable questions would be
a) did it happen
and
b) was it systemic and a pattern of abuse.
We all do blow it sometimes and make threats in a heat of passion. The difference is that an abuser really does feel entitled to have his/her way and use another person to get it. It’s not a one time “accident”, but a description of who he/she is at the core.
When she reports that she hoped he would change and was disappointed that he hasn’t, this speaks a lot to point b. And to point a, everything she has said and the way she has said it carries enough credibility for me to initially believe her.
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Jeff S wrote:
I don’t know Jeff. You and I have both been through divorce. In my marriage there were lines that if crossed would lead to divorce. And this was clearly said between us. Criminal activity for example. I do not think it is abusive to draw lines which are not to be crossed. I think some people call that boundaries.
I am not saying that about this couple we are discussing but merely saying that I do not think that threatening divorce is by definition abusive in all cases.
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@ Muff Potter:
When regular, non-fundagelical-bubble people hear of what he did to a little dog, is it any wonder they want nothing to do with Dobson or his god?
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@ jerry:
Here is an excerpt from Lundy Bancroft’s book “Why Does He Do That” directly addressing your question: http://seebster.tumblr.com/post/77079085424/myth-14-there-are-just-as-many-abusive-women-as
I can tell you, from having worked on the back end of a domestic violence blog than 95% of the victims we talked to were women. There WERE men, and yes, they were mostly subjected to emotional abuse (as was my own), but they were a much smaller percentage. There were also far more false men lying for sympathy than women. I know this because the blog runners were very good at sniffing this out (much more so than me) and it was nuts to see how someone would turn on a dime and reveal their true selves when they were exposed.
In any case, I’m not really here to debate the percentages. Abuse is abuse, male or female, and we can agree on that. Female abusers do exist.
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okrapod wrote:
Oh, you are absolutely right. Divorce is a reasonable boundary to protect yourself. To declare it a consequence is reasonable and good. To use is to control another person is not, and always abusive.
“I will divorce you if you do not support my ministry” is abusive. “I will divorce you if you fail to work as bookkeeper for my business” is abusive. “I will divorce you if you defraud your company and steal money” is not.
So hopefully that clarification helps.
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But again, 95 percent is a number which “they talked to”. Most men aren’t going to report it in my experience. So I don’t necessarily buy that stat. But agree with you. abuse is abuse.
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@ Lydia:
You have a much nicer way of putting it Lyds. There are times when I express it more like Kurtz would upriver.
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@ Jeff S:
I agree with that.
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jerry wrote:
Most women don’t report abuse, either.
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jerry wrote:
I could just imagine being mugged and getting my wallet stolen, in broad daylight, going to a police station to report it, and being met with the immediate attitude by the cops:
“Something just doesn’t add up here. Most muggings happen at night, but you say you were mugged in the middle of the day today? I dunno. I’m skeptical. I need more facts before I can talk to you more or file a report.”
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I felt this applicable to this thread (it’s from a satirical news site, and contains one or two lewd words):
Woman Probably Just Made Up Rape Story In Order To Get Threatening Emails
http://www.theonion.com/article/woman-probably-just-made-rape-story-order-get-thre-52255
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@ Jeff S:
I so appreciate your words. Having been employed at a women’s shelter for 10 yrs., I know that when a man called our hotline, we never questioned that he was being abused. It’s difficult for women to call for help but even more difficult for men imo since because of the image of the macho man is what we see portrayed most often.
Thank you for participating in this thread and for your honesty and understanding of the subject.
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Again I wasn’t doubting her claims of abuse, I was doubting her claims of his prison situation which would in turn cause me to doubt everything she was saying, including the abuse. I don’t know how to be any more clear about this.
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@ Daisy:
That Onion link is sadly not funny, but very appropriate 🙁
Point is well made.
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jerry wrote:
I know of abuse on the part of women, both physical and verbal, in fact to people very close to me. As for statistics, none of these cases were reported or are known of beyond the people involved. When it comes to men and women, neither sex has a corner on being abusive. Anyone who thinks women do not abuse has been blissfully spared some very ugly scenarios. In fact, there is a support website for men going through this http://shrink4men.com/about/
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@ jerry:
Have you seen page 12 of this book, where the author explains that many cultures are set up in such a way that men are encouraged directly or indirectly to seek to dominate other people, especially women, (and/or they get this idea from the culture), while women are more often encouraged to be meek, cooperative, mild, passive in relationships:
https://books.google.com/books?id=XWgxgogz3aAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false
In that therapist’s professional counseling life, she says most of the victims of marital verbal abuse she has counseled have been women (wives).
If you’re a M.R.A. (men’s right activist) type of guy who claim or thinks men are the truly oppressed in society, I can’t agree with that.
Men usually hold more power in society, whether in personal relationships (like marriage) or in the workforce. And some of them exploit this by abusing women physically or verbally.
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@ Victorious:
I appreciate the dialog as well. I am very passionate about this subject, and I’m grateful for a place to be able to participate in these kinds of discussions 🙂
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Jeff S wrote:
Those are my feelings.
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jerry wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re trying to get across in your posts in this thread.
Are you wanting us to doubt all wives who claim to be abused, or to doubt Naghmeh in particular , because in your understanding of life, some women abuse women men?
I think most abusers are men,not women.
Women are not socially conditioned in secular or Christian culture to use control via force or abuse to get the upper hand or place of privilege in marriage or other relationships.
Women are actually punished socially or discouraged from being assertive, aggressive, forceful, direct, abusive, loud, etc. to other people.
These same traits, though, are often encouraged in boys and men – by families, some churches, music videos, movies, TV shows.
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sgage wrote:
No one has done this that I have seen. Where was this done on this thread?
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I am not a men’s activist type of guy, but nor do I think that men have the corner on verbal and emotional abuse. I have seen it too many times from women as well. I do feel like there is a bit of a blanket assumption that men are abusers, and women are victims on this thread.
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Jeff S wrote:
And idolize people for being Winners.
“Who is like unto the Trump?”
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Proverbs 18:13,17 “He who answers a matter before he hears it, it is folly and shame to him.” “The first one to plead his cause seems right, until his neighbor comes and examines him.”
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jerry wrote:
Was anyone talking about gender before you brought it up?
I did skim a bunch, I didn’t think that was really under much discussion.
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Proverbs 26:9 “Like a thorn that goes up into the hand of a drunkard is a proverb in the mouth of fools.”
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or was brought up/involved in a complementarian church/denomination
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It’s funny to me that Christians often (erroneously) say that people step away from Christianity because they want to sin when in fact, Christian “leaders” have the “work of Satan” to basically excuse virtually any behavior. For them, Christianity holds the license to sin.
See: CLC’s response on the SGM article
See also: Franklin Graham’s Facebook post about Saeed
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I get the fear about vague accusations being made about a husband being “abusive” to gain sympathy and triangulate others. My ex tried that (while cheating with another man), and it failed with those who actually know/knew me as they knew it was a lie about my character. So, some of this story triggers things for me.
That said, Nagmeh’s situation is different than mine from what I can tell. What I read from Naghmeh’s situation suggests she is talking about REAL abuse. I was raised to believe ANY physical abuse is ALWAYS unacceptable.
Plus, the power dynamic is stacked against her speaking up about it. That makes me want to give her the benefit of the doubt even more as she has much more to loose by speaking than staying silent.
PS The threat of divorce is interesting as it reveals that her pastor-husband was attempting to use Naghmeh’s investment in and commitment to their marriage covenant against her. That is HIGHLY manipulative, minimally. NOT godly!
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Divorce Minister wrote:
Totally agree!
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I note that she was also born in Iran. Does anybody know if she was raised muslim? Were they married before or after his conversion to christianity? Those missiology books I read had right much to say about muslim marriages and how that worked for both the man and the woman. I am not sure if that is pertinent, but if it is pertinent for him it would be for her also.
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@ Virgil Maro:
This particular verse has been used as a bat against victims of abuse. In abuse, those who speak out are almost always telling the truth. Also, how does one examine an event without witnesses?
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jerry wrote:
The percentages definitely show that far more women then men are abused. However, Jeff S who commenting is one who was abused by his former wife. We stand against all domestic violence, no matter the gender. And Pastor Saeed has not said he was abused.
http://freakonomics.com/2012/02/27/a-hidden-side-of-domestic-violence/
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“Woman sometimes want to fake it because they want to gain power in the situation. I.e. Custody. Again I have seen this happen. I am not saying this is the case most of the time. But it is the case some of the time.”
Jerry, it is the case very, very rarely, just like when kids report they have been sexually abused. There are the occasional false reports, but the bulk of them, whether we choose to believe the victims or not, are true. A woman who is brave enough to admit that her husband/partner is abusing her has everything to lose-her credibility, her reputation, her self-respect. Some won’t believe her, others will pity her, and few will step up to help her. My mother was physically and emotionally abused by my father for the 20 years of their marriage. This was back in the days when the cops would come by, tell my mom to make him a nice steak for dinner, while she was holding a wet towel up to her black eye and holding her broken glasses. We were all terrified of him. Quite a few of our friends had figured it out, but you just didn’t interfere back in the 60s. Although my mom had a happy second marriage, she never fully recovered emotionally from the abuse. Witnessing it for as long as I could remember, I haven’t either. I prefer to believe reports before discounting them, and I am proud of Naghmeh for having the courage to take actions against her abuser.
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okrapod wrote:
In one statement, Naghmedshe said that she has loved Jesus since she was a child. Saeed converted at age 20, before they met and married. I don’t know about Naghmed, but Saeed has dual citizenship in the U.S. and Iran. In divorce cases, Iranian courts almost always grant custody of children to the fathers.
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I saw my mother attack my father once. I don’t blame her, but he was not the one who got physical. When you have seen it you believe it. I have seen women who have made what I would call a lifestyle of tearing people apart verbally, but I am sure nobody ever ‘reported’ it. Who would? ‘ She talks mean to me all the time.’ What man would report that and to whom? And is that against the law? Is there a civil right to be free from having somebody talk mean to you? But I think that is a pattern of verbal abuse, and I just hate to see men get so much blame when the stats are all based on ‘reporting.’
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@ Jeff S:
Jeff, upthread you said your ex-wife threatened you with divorce or suicide if you didn’t comply with her wishes.
I have a friend now whose adult son is doing the “if you don’t do xyz/accept me as I am/pay my outstanding debts, i’m going to kill myself.” This is clearly (to me) a controlling thing, and the family is being whipsawed by this threat. I wonder if you have a resource (book, blog, website) that you could recommend that talks to this issue of someone using threats like this to control others, and how the “others” can deal with this kind of threat.
Thank you. I’m sorry for this trial in your life.
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Nancy2, a ha. That would explain it right there. In one of the linked articles I read, originally Nagmeh and the kids were to fly to North Carolina to reunite with Saeed there (I think her parents did). Instead, he’s there for 6 days before flying to Boise. Only then does he see the kids, but not her. Not only that, but the day he arrives she files for separation to keep the kids in Idaho. I can only wonder about the phone calls going back and forth between the coasts during his stay at the center.
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@ okrapod:
So are you saying that you believe that in “reality” women are abusers (emotional, physical, and verbal) just as much as men, and the abuse by women just isn’t reported?
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Here is how I approach accusations of abuse. I listen to the story. I wonder if the person crying abuse benefits in any way from the claims. I read all that I can find on that particular situation. Since the number of false claims is in the lower single digits, I will tend to believe the person making the claims of abuse.
Also, whenever we are dealing with a celebrity, I know that the knee jerk position of most people will be to defend that (say the following with a somber voice) *wonderful Christian leader who has led so many to Jesus.*
The abused wife is looked at as an impediment to “the course of Jesus.* I usually wait for the claims that the wife of the *wonderful man of God* is batshit crazy or as they say in conservative circles “she needs counseling, bless her heart.”
Tomorrow, if the Lord gives me some time, I plan to write why I believe complementarianism/authoritarianism could/does lead to an increase in reports of abuse. Something struck me yesterday while I waited for my stepfather to get our of surgery (he did well). I read an excellent article sent to me by one of our readers and this thought jumped out at me.
Please keep my family in your prayers. I am running 100 mph trying to get the elderly folks all the medical help and care they need and it has been a bit overwhelming.
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@ Nancy2:
That is good information. Those missiology books to which I have referred in the past had right much to say about muslim marriages and how that worked for the man and the woman. From what I read there the women are expected to make the marriage their number one importance in life. They even said that in muslim marriages in muslim countries when the man converts to christianity the woman will do so also even though she has no idea what she is doing and has not been instructed in christianity, nor does it matter to anybody what she thinks. Her number one commitment is to the marriage and if he wants her to be a christian she will-unless he dies and she will then go back to the mosque and raise her children muslim.
From what has been said here it occurs to me that he may expect this same sort of commitment to the marriage regardless of anything even though they are no longer muslims. Perhaps that is in the culture of Iran regardless of whether one is muslim or not. Perhaps in their culture or former culture he would have the right to demand that, and when she asserted her reluctance to do something he wanted it would have been grounds for divorce in Iran. Obviously I don’t know, but that might explain how some christian got so far off base.
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Bridget wrote:
I am saying that verbal abuse by women is almost certainly underreported by the men they abuse. I don’t believe I made any guesses as to what the percentages might be.
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Persephone wrote:
Me, too. I’ve noticed Velour has not posted in a long time, either.
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What isn’t adding up in my mind is Saeed’s seemingly physical well-being.
Over the last couple of years, I have spent many a sleepless night praying for his health after reports of increasing physical beatings and reports of him being near death with internal injuries.
I don’t intend to minimize the stress and physical discomfort of an Iranian prison. I am sure imprisonment and looming threat to life is hellish. What I haven’t seen reported is anything to support the allegations with reports of Pastor Saeed being given life-saving medical treatment. It’s the first thing I was listening for upon his release, to find out if they got to him in time to save his life.
Instead of those reports, I see him walking off the plane in Asheville on his way to The Cove with Franklin. Head scratcher.
It makes me wonder if that part of his story is true or false or exaggerated.
If false, and I am speculating here, perhaps he wanted Naghneh to portray his health as in worse condition than reality. If so, perhaps that is something she would not do. .
I can understand that if his health was poor, it might be used to negotiate his release. But if his health wasn’t in as dire a condition as reported in the news, perhaps he wanted Naghemh to portray it as such.
I could easily imagine that scenario if, indeed, my speculation is valid, and how she might refuse to participate in a lie and how he might threaten her over it … All speculation, I know. He wanted release, he thought using a report of his poor and failing health was his ticket out, she refused, he threatens her…
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Nancy2 wrote:
After most of his personality and attitudes would have been established.
A little something I remember from a long-ago Business Law class:
Iran uses Jus Sanguinis (Law of Blood) to determine citizenship. (Iran was the example used in the class of a Jus Sanguinis state.) The USA and most of the Anglosphere uses Jus Soli (Law of Soil – were you born within our borders?) If your ethnic background is Jus Sanguinis and you were born in a Jus Soli state, both can claim you as a citizen under their respective laws.
In this specific case:
Under Jus Sanguinis, if you are ethnic Iranian, you are an Iranian Citizen no matter where you were born or reside. And thus under jurisdiction of Iranian courts. No wonder Naghmedshe got a court order in an American court; if things get ugly, the kids are also Iranian under Jus Sanguinis and Saeed has every right under Iranian law to take them. (Especially since Iranian Law went full Shari’a after their 1979 Revolution.)
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Jerry wrote:
Jerry, it totally adds up if you are familiar with the dynamics of abuse. While I assume your comments are based on ignorance not malice, they can still be hurtful to women stuck in emotionally abusive marriages. “Why didn’t you just…. hang up the phone… call the police… leave him… ?” These are questions that plague every victim of domestic abuse whether psychological/emotional only or physical. A Cry for Justice is a good blog to peruse if you are interested in educating yourself.
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PaJo, you are correct that the son threatening suicide is a form of abuse, it is coercive and he is using it to control them,
There is one very important thing they should do: take his threat seriously and report it to authorities and have him committed to the hospital on suicide watch. If he is serious, he will get the help he needs, if he is not serious, he will bear the consequences of his actions.
There used to be a very good verbal abuse forum which crashed that taught me a lot about my personal situation. The website is still up and has wonderful resources: Dr, Irene’s Verbal Abuse Site. Drirene.com
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Mike wrote:
A difference that makes no difference.
“Just like Shari’a, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
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PaJo wrote:
PaJo, this very same thing happened to my son years ago. I suggested he call the suicide hotline for advice and he was told that it was indeed a control measure and that in the long run there is nothing one can do to stop suicide if someone is determined to end their life. You can only suggest counseling if you think the threat is a serious one or, as you’ve said, a control tactic.
The number in the U.S. is 1 (800) 273-8255 and is available 24/7.
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PaJo wrote:
My brother tried the exact same shtick after Mom’s death in ’75, with two exceptions: (1) instead of “pay my outstanding debts” it was “let me do whatever I want” and (2) “I’ll go join Mom and it’ll be All YOUR Fault!” (This example of Filial Piety coming from the same kid who when cancer invalid Mom was calling for assistance just turned his stereo up full volume so he wouldn’t have to hear her.)
Heavy Mind Games, played for keeps.
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Remnant wrote:
This is exactly right. My wife ended up going to a treatment center three times for this before we finally divorced.
I cannot recommend the book “Boundaries” by Townsend and Cloud enough. This book has helped me identify controlling behavior and how to appropriately deal with it.
The best resource I know for dealing with abuse, emotional or otherwise, is the “A Cry For Justice” blog- http://cryingoutforjustice.com/
I’m sure there are others, but I’m biased because this one helped me a great deal and I did some work behind the scenes for them as well as wrong a few articles.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy: last I looked, there were over 80 legal Sharia courts in England. This is not good news for women in areas of custody and finances.
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NJ wrote:
And those six days in NC were in the company of Franklin Graham and his Culture War spinmeisters. Obviously more important than reuinion with his wife.
Yeah. SOMETHING was going on and it didn’t smell good.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes. I was thinking that if Saeed managed to get the children out of US territory, it would be over. I would imagine Naghmed was thinking along the same lines. Especially if the threats she claimed he made are true ~~ she has already disobeyed him by not following his orders.
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Remnant wrote:
I have wondered if he has been seen by a medical doctor since he arrived in the U.S.
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Guys you should read the thread over at Phoenix Preacher about this issue.
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=24517#comments
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jerry wrote:
More abusers are usually men, though.
Re your comment:
“I have seen it too many times from women as well.”
And what conclusion do you want me to draw from this?
——
BTW, my sister is a verbal abuser, and she abuses me, as did a female boss I had years ago.
Nobody on this thread has said all women are totally angelic.
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Thank you both for your responses to my question re: suicide threat as controlling mechanism. I have taken your responses down and will send them to my friend before the next incident arises. Maybe this will be some of the good that has come from your pain.
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@ Virgil Maro:
Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
Psalm 82:3
Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
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Divorce Minister wrote:
Verbal and emotional abuse are also very damaging.
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okrapod wrote:
I remember hearing once that Islamic culture picked up the custom of the locked up harem from Persian culture when they overran Iran in the First/Second Century, Hegira. That before that, Arab culture was more rural/tribal and though they did have harem polygyny did not have the Secluded Harem and such total Herd Bull Male Supremacy (in a tribal culture, every pair of hands is needed, male or female). That the Arabs picked up this kind of extreme patriarchy from upper-class Persians, which meant it originally came from Iranian culture.
I have no source for this claim; it came up in random conversation years ago.
Can anyone confirm this?
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okrapod wrote:
Women don’t usually get the message from culture that it’s okay to be assertive and domineering as much as men do. So you’re not going to see them using verbal or physical abuse to control a male partner as often as the opposite.
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Daisy wrote:
Has anyone come up with credible figures as to the percentages?
(Though that would be a really tall order considering reporting rates & biases.)
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okrapod wrote:
Another thing I’ve read over and over in various books or blogs about domestic abuse and so on is that physical abuse by men against a female partner is almost always begun with verbal abuse.
Most men are more physically strong than most women, so I think women have more to lose here.
I’ve also heard this line a time or two online (possibly attributable to Gavin de Becker; it’s been awhile since I read his book):
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
One site has it as:
“Most men fear getting laughed at or humiliated by a romantic prospect while most women fear rape and death.”
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Abi Miah wrote:
She occasionally visits and posts at Spiritual Sounding Board blog.
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Jeff S wrote:
That one is good, and any about any book that deals with codependency / people pleasing, such as
The Disease To Please: Curing the People-Pleasing Syndrome by Harriet B. Braiker
There are many other good titles on these topics, some by Christians, some by authors who I’m not sure of what their religious views are.
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Daisy wrote:
For an abusive woman, the tropes of “asymmetrical warfare” are more likely to be in use, as she’d be coming from a physically-weaker one-down position. Guerilla Warfare as opposed to the Open Stand-up Fight from a one-up position. Especially in patriarchal cultures where women are supposed to be quiet, submissive, and inferior; they have to get sneaky and passive-manipulative. (Which has an additional side effect of increasing men’s distrust of women.)
“A man will shoot you in the face; a woman will poison you behind your back.”
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@ Eagle:
Wow. Here is part of a comment one person left on that post (bold print emphasis, mine – not the commentor’s):
“I no longer attend Calvary Chapel for many reasons. My husband, who is born-again, also became an abusive husband.”……..”I believe he suffers from a PTSD-like condition due to the traumas of his past. I also believe that Calvary Chapel teachings of submission and headship encouraged my husband to become abusive over the course of many years. I understand the fear this woman has. No one who knows my husband would ever believe he could be abusive. My husband has a public personality and an entirely different private personality.”……” I am still with my husband, because I am a Christian, and honestly, I do feel sorry for him because of his past. I’ve inherited a large amount of money, and all of the abuse stopped as soon as I inherited it. Interesting, isn’t it? One of the reasons I left Calvary Chapel is that during marriage counseling the pastor told me that I had to give my husband my entire teaching salary, my entire State Teachers Retirement pension, and any money I inherit to my husband . Even if my husband lost it all, the pastor said that my money was all my husband’s to do what he wanted with it. Abusive men are all about having control, and giving my husband my entire income and inheritance would have just increased his control over me.”
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PaJo wrote:
I wasn’t very clear in my reply to you, PaJo. It wasn’t my son who was threatening me with suicide, but it was his girlfriend. He wanted to break up with her and that’s when the suicide threats started. The advice given from the suicide hotline was directed to him. My apologies about the lack of clarity. Not thinking clearly today. ….:(
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t have the time right now to spend hours tracking every site with every statistic on it but here is this page:
http://www.safevoices.org/statistics.php
The folks A Cry For Justice blog probably have a lot of links to resources with that kind of information.
I think Dee linked to a page up thread with info on this. Snippet:
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Daisy wrote:
Which means just counting straight M/F, odds are three-to-one the abuse is going to be in the M/F direction. Primarily male abusers (three-to-one odds) but enough female abusers (one-to-three odds) that you can’t ignore the possibility.
Counting the gay end (M/M & F/F) males are still more likely to abuse than females but the spread is closer (three-to-two odds).
And odds are one-in-three any given relationship of any kind will have some abuse.
(That’s just raw arithmetic. I flunked Statistics in college, so I can’t do any sophisticated statistical analysis taking overlaps and combined types into account.)
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@ Daisy:
Those stats could mean that women are significantly more likely to be abused, or they could mean that men are far less likely to report abuse, or they could mean than when somebody is abused to a level of injury which they report it is more likely to be the female who is injured to that extent. They could also mean some combination of those factors, which I think is likely.
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Interesting blog post by a radio broadcaster in Boise: There is a great quote in the middle of the article about what fame really is.
http://branthansen.com/2016/01/28/a-final-word-on-saeed-abedini-2/
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I googled Calvary Chapel, Boise and explored their website. ……….. Found this.
http://www.ccboise.org/search/node/Gender%20roles
Snippet: “v. 3 The Head – This was a way to ascribe authority of one over another. Man is Christ – Paul makes clear that ultimate authority over mankind and, specifically the men in the church, is Christ (Matt. 28:18, Phil 2:10-11). Head of Woman – Paul affirms the social order of God-given authority to the man. “
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@ Jerry:
“Ok I see they spoke by skype or phone. But again, he really holds no power. He is locked up. Why not just hang up the phone or refuse to talk? What abuse was he inflicting over skype that she could not easily stop. I am not saying she is lying, it just doesn’t completely add up to me.”
++++++++++++++++++++
how in the world do you know that she didn’t hang up?
but think about it: you suggest that she simply hang up the phone in response to verbal assault/threat. she does. it doesn’t erase or cancel out the verbal assault/threat. it happened.
she waits a period of time, gives it another shot, in hope for something better. perhaps it was better this time. she communicates again. more verbal assault/threats this time. She hangs up. This cycle repeats itself, all out of hope and love. and plenty of hanging up the phone.
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@ Daisy:
Yes, both are damaging as well. However, “emotional abuse” is a very elastic term meaning different things to different people. Physical abuse is easier to see and detect. But that does not make it worse than emotional abuse. Just makes it clearer.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I saw you at the other blog. I left there a few minutes ago.
One denizen over there thinks all a society has to do to solve domestic violence is to teach women when they are girls is to call the police “after the husband throws the first punch.”
I tried to educate the guy, give him the cliff notes version of how domestic violence usually plays out, and even gave him a link to the excellent “Cry For Justice” blog and asked him to spend some time there. He flatly refused.
Do domestic violence shelters, victim advocates, and police know that the instant cure for stopping any and all domestic violence is to tell women to call the cops after the abuser throws the first punch?
It’s that easy! Why didn’t someone think of that before? *roll eyes*
I had to get off that blog before my blood pressure rose any higher.
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Nancy2 wrote:
That is insane, and entirely not Biblical! My opinion of Calvary Chapel has bottomed out.
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@ Pythagoras:
“However the only person who at risk of losing their reputation, livelihood, or children seems to be the husband.”
+++++++++
you must be joking.
If Jeff S’ comment re: articles/comments ‘90% [of articles/comments] are either questioning her truthfulness or outright accusing her of making this up…’, the steps she has taken have emblazoned her with a scarlet letter for which she is being castigated, if not virtually shunned in her culture/subculture.
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dee wrote:
Yes! The men attracted to complementarianism tend to be ones with emotional issues and are “easily deceived” into thinking that God has put them in charge (talk about an ego boost). This lack of selk esteem plus the Evangelical Male Entitlement Mentality makes it easy to fall into abusive behavior.
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Julie McMahon seems to have lost everything. Maybe she should be the poster woman of why celebrity pastors wives need to be proactive.@ elastigirl:
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Abi Miah wrote:
Or Sopy.
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@ okrapod:
What missiology books would those be? I am interested in finding out more.
One thing to keep in mind, since Islam is a worldwide religion with many schools of thought and practice, is… culture. They are Iranian, yes? That’s quite different than, say, Senegalese, Indonesian, Moroccan… local custom has a *lot* of influence on things, too.
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@ Patriciamc:
Yes–I’ve been missing Sopy also.
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@ Muff Potter:
“Karma and her sister Comeuppance are relentless…”
++++++++++
helps me sleep at night.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I think you have been sold a lot of b.s. Perhaps you might want to look into Iranisn history and culture? The *kind* of harem you’re talking about is most typical of thd Otyomsn dultand. And fwiw, Zoroastrian beliefs snd customs are still part of daily life in Iran and msny Central Asian counties. Parts of Iranian marriage ceremonies are, even now, drawn direvtly from pre-Islamic religion and culture. (Also true of pretty much everything aboutPersian New Year – Nowruz, though it is often spelled in other wsys.)
French artists became fasvinsted by, among other things, haremd post-Napoleon’s invasion of Egypt (psrt of the Ottomsn Empire at that time) and came up eith no rnd ot fantastic, ultra-sexy depictions thst havd pretty much 0 to do eith the truth, then or now. The 19th c. was the heydsy of Orientslism, in art and lit., and boy, did the colonizing nations (France snd England) get a lot of things wrong.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I have a reply to you that’s on the back burner. It concetns Orientalism, Iran and misinformation. You might want to check back.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The cultures of the Arabian Peninsula in Mohammed’s time certainly allowed enough freedom for a woman like his 1st wife, Khadija, to have become a wealthy merchant. Mohammed was a promising young man (as a merchant), and that’s one reason she martied him.
She is also credited as being the 1st to have believed his message, but that was later on.
She was, btw, significantly older than him.
All that said, there were many different cultural groups (religious, too) on the Arabian Peninsula at that time, and not all have left written records, so generalizations (like the one i just made sbove!) are probably unwise.
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Just a thought:
She made sure that legally he is not to take the children out of Idaho.
Various times when I was in graduate school it was common to see Muslim middle East foreign male students woo American girls. They would marry them if they wanted to stay in the U.S. However they often would take their child, children back to their families in the country they were from to be raised Muslim. The American mother could go too but was not allowed to take the children back to the U.S.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Well, i can’t help wondering why the person who said this was ignoring the many, *many* wives and concubines of David, Solomon, and other ANE rulers mentioned in the OT? Why would Persia have been *the* source of this, umm, “custom”? Maybe because we trnd to pick snd choose our ideas, at least some of the time? Certainly, if the book of Esther is at all historically and culturally accurate, the ancient rulers of Persia were following the lead of the Pharoahs and petty kings like David, and (maybe) not the other way around?
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Jerry wrote:
Jerry – There is absolutely nothing “common sense” that revolves around domestic violence. It plays out differently for each individual and each family. We don’t know the full extent of what he said to her or did to her, but she did the best that she could to live through each day.
Sometimes victims do things that don’t make sense in order to survive. For instance, I recently sat through a training regarding a correlation between women who were abused and their substance abuse use. Many use drugs in order to survive the abuse. It doesn’t make sense to us, but it makes perfect sense to the victim. Some of the reasons were that if they got drunk/high with their s.o. then he would pass out and she would be safe from abuse, or he used the drugs against her in order to say that he could report her to the police and they would take the children away, or by getting high it was the only way they could make it through their situation. These victims should be congratulated for doing whatever it took to make it through the abuse. Yes, even if that meant using drugs.
I think the time that they had apart was an eye opener to her. I am glad to see that she is taking necessary steps to set boundaries and keep her and the children safe.
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Charged so guilty. Ouch.
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Presumed guilty. Ouch.
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Who wants a jury of their peers when the peers have already deemed you guilty without hearing from you?
Back in Iran!
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numo wrote:
When I can locate them I will send you the title and author. A quick look at Amazon turned up a sea of missiology literature, and maybe I can wade through that with time. In the meantime I will tell you what it was and maybe that will enable you to locate them, since I do not remember title and author. It was a series of two books written by a missionary couple who had headed up an information gathering project primarily funded by the International Mission Board of the SBC but which also included some people from other denominations (which exactly I do not remember.) The two books I read were written under a pseudonym for safety reasons since the couple seems to have returned to the middle east as missionaries in a ‘closed’ muslim nation.
The author/couple had been based in Kenya and had established some sort of financial project to help in Sudan during the war there and they had been funded by the United Nations in that project. After that became no longer possible due to the political changes in Sudan, and after one of their children died they returned to the states for as while as missionaries in residence at some college in Kentucky. Then they undertook this information gathering project to see what they could find out about areas where little was known. They had (the Board had I suppose) contacts in China and they went there with contact to the house church movement, interviewed a bunch of people, and sent the information home. They collected some information in Russia, though apparently not a lot. They looked at the pentecostal healing evangelism in India. And they interviewed people in some muslim countries who had converted to christianity to get insight into what it is to convert in the muslim near east.
No specific countries were named in the near east, and when the couple themselves at the end of the project went apparently underground in the near east neither their identifying information nor their location were mentioned in the books. I found the information fascinating even if one were not especially sympathetic to the cause of missions such as they saw.
Maybe some other people who read here will recognize what I am talking about and can give us the title and author. Maybe Florence in KY or perhaps Wade with his contacts will recognize what I am trying to remember.
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When there is an allegation there should be an investigation.
Correct?
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I’ve seen many many people in the church with their own axe to grind.
I was amazed that someone would do that in the church!
I was also amazed at how many people followed really stupid axes.
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@ Q:
I’m amazed (and saddened) when a Christian woman shares with friends, family, or her church that her husband has been abusing her that the first reaction of many is to question her, doubt her, or attribute nefarious motives to her.
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Was Sarah abused in Genesis 12?
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Daisy wrote:
You’ll cheer up, over actor.
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Q wrote:
???
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Daisy wrote:
This is a red herring.
When there is an allegation there should be an investigation.
Correct?
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@ okrapod:
I was only trying to understand your comment.
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Q wrote:
There wasn’t an allegation. There was a prayer group from which someone shared private information.
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Bridget wrote:
No.
That was a large group of people.
She has accused him of multiple abuse allegations, and has filed for separation and is attempting to lock him out of his house.
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Q wrote:
Do you know how many people were in the group? My understanding is that one person in the group shared publicly what was meant to stay private.
Q wrote:
That is understandable if she fears him and what he might do.
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@ Q:
Are you really that uninformed?
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Bridget wrote:
So you agree she has accused him of multiple allegations?
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Bridget wrote:
Would Sarah do that?
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Q wrote:
Is this addressed to me? If so, please inform me if I am uninformed. What facts do you have that would be a reason to not believe Naghmeh? She may not have wanted any of this made public, but her husband is in the public eye, so there is not much chance of keeping it private. I hope they can work out the problems and find healing. In the meantime, I can understand why she has proceeded as she has.
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@ Bridget:
Yes it was to you Bridget. You can believe Naghmeh or not, either way –
“When there is an allegation there should be an investigation.
Correct?”
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Q wrote:
These are two different situations. I am not comparing the two. Sarah had no recourse in her day. She was considered property. She had no choice. And Abram was a coward to do what he did. I don’t remember God telling him to act as he did. Do you.
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Q wrote:
I should trademark this.
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Bridget wrote:
Really, The father of our faith was a coward?
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Q wrote:
When there are allegations of abuse, actions are often taken immediately to assure safety for those involved. I believe that is what Naghmeh has done. There is often a court date after this to make further determinations. There is not always an “investigation.” There may be in this case if abuse needs to be proven.
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Bridget wrote:
Okay.
One did not obey her husband and one did. I wonder who was under more pressure, guess which one and guess who God affirmed.
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Q wrote:
Yes, in this case he was. You need to read up on the father’s of our faith. They were a mixed bag just like you and me. They were not without sin.
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@ Bridget:
You said Abraham was a coward.
I guess Lot was hideous also?
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Bridget wrote:
Okay
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Q wrote:
God may have affirmed Sarah, she did nothing wrong. Why should she be harmed because of her husband’s folly. But that does not mean that Naghmeh has to do what Sarah did. Naghmeh needs to do what the Lord wants her to do. There were women in the OT who didn’t obey their husbands and were affirmed by God. There was a woman in the NT who lied along with her husband and was struck dead.
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Bridget wrote:
I guess Sarah was also, she should have said, no way! But she couldn’t as the slave she was?
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Bridget wrote:
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Bridget wrote:
Hmm…
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Would Sarah who called her husband lord do what Naghmeh has done?
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@ Q:
Do you believe that God intended Sarah to commit adultery so He could bless Abram? As is often the case, Sarah was between a rock and hard place.
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Q wrote:
As I said above, Naghmeh needs to do what the Lord is telling her to do now. Sarah is not her God.
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Bridget wrote:
Where is
Bridget wrote:
Well that is insane.
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Q wrote:
hmmm . . . she sinned on the order of the father of your faith
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Bridget wrote:
How will Naghmeh know, since Sarah is not an example?
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Good night, Q.
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Bridget wrote:
No she didn’t, but yes Abraham is the father of my faith, is he Bridget’s???
b
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Charged so guilty. Ouch…
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Presumed guilty. Ouch…
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When there is an allegation there should be an investigation.
Correct???
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@ Q:
Investigation of he said/she said ends up with the one having the most power/gravitas winning. It is an impossible situation. And psychological abuse is not really recognized. One reason why that pesky animal no fault divorce was needed. But custody issues still a big problem.
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okrapod wrote:
Oops. I believe it was Somalia.
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Is Q a muslim? What is with this OT and NT business re Sarah? Is he espousing the idea that christians are required to actually sin on the orders of some other christian? On the other hand is somebody saying that Saeed asked Naghmeh to sin? What did he ask her to do? Am I losing my mind trying to make sense of all this ??
And I do believe that the OT says that Abram said that he did what he did because he was afraid. And Sarah had no choice. And I do believe that the king he lied to accused Abram of doing wrong. So WTH with the Abram and Sarah pseudo-analogy? Or is this not the A and S incident that is being referred to?
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numo wrote:
I thought she was a wealthy widow.
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@ Nancy2:
I honestly do think their associations with Calvary Chapel play into this whether Naghmeh has connected the dots or not. I base this on the CC's foundational beliefs in a Christian caste system. I realize some CC pastors might be less rigid than others but the foundation is there to exploit.
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The following link gives the latest position on Sharia courts in the UK@ Lydia:
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https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/
Sorry forgot to post it
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@ Q:
I have yet to see a jury trial on abuse. It is usually one judge in family court. And most judges, in my experience as an advocate, don’t acknowledge emotional or spiritual abuse. That is why people discuss it so much. It is a real thing yet hard to adjudicate. It is not against the law to be a deceptive cruel jerk that controls through mind games.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
This link gives you the data
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/harem-i
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Niteowl wrote:
I’m totally with you on this. The man is a bully & an abusive bully at that.
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Q wrote:
There is loads of other scripture plus the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
If you think Abraham did right by her in Genesis 12, then you must not be able to tell the difference between descriptive and prescriptive accounts in the Bible. His actions were not laudable there.
If you think a woman should submit to a man’s abuse in the pattern of Sarah, then you’ve revealed yourself to have nothing of value to discuss here, because that is a sickening perspective and against God’s revealed nature of being a defender of the weak and innocent.
Saeed is not tried and convicted here. I don’t see anyone calling for him to be imprisoned for his crimes against her. It’s reasonable to use caution when a revered man is accused of abuse, and that is what many are doing.
We must think of how we treat victims: if they come to us asking for help, and our first response is a cold shoulder and a demand for more information, we will not be able to offer the compassionate love that our Savior demands.
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@ molly245:
First is something to be proud of, right?
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Lydia wrote:
Do you all remember some of the reaction when Elizabeth Smart, Shawn Hornbeck, and Jaycee Dugard were found after being in captivity for a prolonged period? While much of the reaction was joy, there were plenty of people who asked, “Why did they stay with their captors when they had an opportunity to escape?”
Answer: Because they had been conditioned to stay and they had been conditioned to believe that something very bad would happen if they tried to run. When someone controls your every move, that does something to you. You know you are dependent on them and you will do anything to keep from displeasing them.
Granted, I used some extreme examples, but in the case of spousal abuse, I don’t think I’m very far from the truth. Abused spouses are usually dependent on the abuser. They control the resources and they have power. It takes a lot of courage to break away from someone like that. A friend of mine who was emotionally abused by her husband tried three times before she finally left him.
I *do* believe that cases of abuse should be investigated. But more often than not, the victim is telling the truth.
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zooey111 wrote:
And before the Pearls & Ezzo, he was GAWD’s Oracle about childrearing.
And GOP Kingmaker during the Reagan Era and both Bushes, strutting through the corridors of Power in DC.
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BC wrote:
This was the situation in Betty Mahmoody’s book, Not Without My Daughter. She married a Muslim who was charming and treated her like a queen. When the Iranian revolution happened in 1979, he changed. When he wanted to take her and their daughter to Iran to meet his family, she was afraid that if she refused to go, he’d take their daughter and she’d never see her again. Once in Iran, she would need her husband’s permission to leave, and if he wouldn’t let their daughter go with her, she had no legal recourse.
The daughter in the book, Mahtob Mahmoody, just recently released her own book, My Name is Mahtob. She describes some of the experiences she’s had in her life, including the efforts of her father to get in touch with her. The father died in Iran several years ago.
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Tina wrote:
And if the victims were raised in Christianese Purity Culture, their abuser has popped their cherry making them Utterly Worthless anyway, Used Goods (or other Purity Training Class Imagery) instead of Pure Virgins.
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Q wrote:
Umm…Well, yes, Abraham was a coward. He was also, IMO, an abuser of the first water. He was also NOT the “father of our faith”. The Father of our faith was, is, and ever will be God–and God alone.
Next question???
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okrapod wrote:
You may well ask. I have been wondering the same thing for some time now.
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okrapod wrote:
Well since Abraham did it twice, some confusion may be understandable…..
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@ Tina:
A great comment, Tina!
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Q wrote:
God is the Father of my faith. Abraham is one of the many witnesses to the Father of the faith.
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Q wrote:
When someone implies that a woman is making up being abused by her spouse, that should be called out, correct?
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Q wrote:
Hmmm-an investigation? By whom? The Ambassadors of Reconciliation who exonerated SGM? Kevin DeYoung? Churches and BFFs of the celebrity do not do this well.
This will be a civil case and she will need to testify in court. for custody of the kids. How does one prove abuse when no one was able to witness it?
Once again, the number of people who lie about something like this is relatively minor. This is one strong women. She has to put up with a number of people,. mostly men, who think Saeed is without a doubt, a hero. But they will learn that even heroes sin.
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okrapod wrote:
I’m not sure where Q is coming from, quite, but some Christian gender complementarians point to Sarah as an example they think women ought to follow.
Sarah is mentioned here:
http://newlife.id.au/bible-study-notes/1-peter-3_1-6/
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Q wrote:
She most certainly lied to Pharaoh on Abram’s orders. She said she was Abram’s sister and was taken into Pharaoh’s palace and made Pharaoh’s wife while she was married to Abram. Does your Bible say something different?
I have one Father who is God.
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Q wrote:
You have elucidated the second class status of women in the OT society. A woman who told her husband not to abuse her could be easily divorced and thrown to the wolves. How awful for you to hold up the abuse of Sarah as an example of what women should do when they are abused. This is poor exegesis.
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Q wrote:
So, you believe that the famous people of the OT were sinless? The OT is a story of terribly sinful men and women who were constantly forgiven by God. Yes, Abraham was a coward but he was stilled cared about by God, just like you are.
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Tina wrote:
Exactly. I tried explaining this yesterday to a guy on another forum (that Eagle linked to), and all this guy kept saying was, “after a husband throws the first punch the wife should call the police that will take care of it.”
I tried telling him that in many abusive marriages, that won’t happen because the abuser has so stripped the woman of her self esteem, she will think she deserves the punch. There are other reasons a victim would not think to call the cops or be too afraid to.
I could not make the guy on the other blog understand that.
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Romans chapter 4 compares Abraham, progenitor of the nation of Israel to the progenitor of those who receive the inheritance of God by faith.
“So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.”
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dee wrote:
I’m not sure Q understands that concept. He reminds me of a former pastor who chastised me for pointing out that Moses had faults, was even a murderer. The pastor thought we should never say such things of men of the Bible.
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bonnie knox wrote:
That is in there, but there is also this:
Matthew 23:9 [quoting Jesus Christ]:
“But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9″Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10″Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
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dee wrote:
Exactly.
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dee wrote:
Abraham was justified or reckoned righteous by faith. If he had already been without sins and faults, this would not have been necessary in the first place.
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@ Daisy:
Yes, but. Jesus said do not be called rabbi/teacher and then in the great commission he instructed his disciples to go out and teach. Jesus said don’t be called father, and Paul seems not to have heard that since he called himself a spiritual father. Jesus said whatever about leaders but then he/the Spirit gave instructions in the NT as to how people are to view leaders as well as instructors.
If the truth of the scripture you have quoted lies in a literal application of those exact words and no more or less than that, with no further understanding of what he was saying, then the bible is full of contradictions. There are either contradictions or there are explanations.
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dee wrote:
I’m probably in the minority here, but that is why I’m in favor of no-fault divorce. Used to be adultery was the only way one could get a divorce, but that too was unprovable since there were no witnesses.
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Bridget wrote:
This is why we have so much trouble in the church. We think we need to cover up the sins of our fathers and pretend they are perfect.
My daughter got in trouble in high school for saying Billy Graham was a terrible father. She was quoting Billy Graham himself from his autobiography. The teacher said she should never say that about a great man. She told him that Billy Graham was great but he was a sinner as well. I was pleased with her response. It was real-not sugarcoated.
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Please be aware that Naghmeh is reading these comments. She is one strong, brave woman and Saeed better get his priorities straight. He is living in this country in which domestic abuse is not tolerated or condoned like some countries in the Middle East.
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Jeff S wrote:
That is spot on! Thank you.
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@ okrapod:
I never said the Bible contains contradictions. I was simply responding to other people’s posts about whether or not Abraham is or should be called a father figure to Christians.
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Victorious wrote:
I am stumped by this.
I have seen this attitude pop up on Twitter and other sites. People are having a fit that some people are wanting to believe that Neghmeh was abused on her say-so.
As most abuse takes place in private (abusers are careful to keep it hidden), how is a victim who is in fact being abused supposed to get justice or recourse?
I don’t see where other crimes or sins are treated with such heightened skepticism.
Was it this thread or one previous where I told a skeptic, how would you feel if you were mugged in broad daylight, went to the police about it, and the cops were incredulous that any muggings happen in the day and so they refuse to listen to you or file any sort of report?
I’ve yet to see what Neghmeh benefits from making any of this up. She gets a lot of criticism online is what she gets, and a small smattering of support. But mostly nay-sayers.
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@ Victorious:
I mean to say in my last post, I agreed with your post.
I’m disagreeing with the people who insist every woman (or other abuse victim) who claims abuse must have the abuse on video, with ten witnesses who saw it first hand, etc.
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Daisy wrote:
I know you did not. I am not saying that. I am saying that the scripture you quoted cannot be taken the way some people do unless they are willing to admit that their understanding of that scripture means that there are contradictions in scripture.
I should have been more clear about that.
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Daisy wrote:
Most often used advice is that victims should (at some point) be careful to leave a “paper trail.” That’s why it’s important to call a DV hotline for valuable strategies should proof be necessary. One such strategy is to partner with neighbors that should they see the porch light on at an unusual time, they should notify police. That signal may bring police at a time when a warning might deter the abuser that there was a report made. That’s one measure of starting a paper trail.
Once I had to call the police and my husband apologized to them for having to come out on a Sunday. He tried to come across like Mr. GoodGuy, but they didn’t fall for it for a minute. They are very in-tune with such platitudes and excuses that she caused it.
We should remember that the most dangerous time for a woman is when she tries to leave an abusive relationship. I was called to the ER once when a young woman took her child and ran to her parents home for safety. I warned her father that he was in danger and he laughed and said he wasn’t the least bit afraid of that ****. Within hours of that ER visit, the abuser went to the home where she was and shot her father. He died. He also shot his wife, but the would was minor and the abuser ended in jail.
All that’s to say, it’s easy to ask, “why does she stay?” but the violence inflicted over time sends a strong warning to the victim who has the safety of, not only herself, but her children, family members, and anyone else who affords help. A shelter is the best place until the abuser is apprehended. They are usually in undisclosed areas known only to employees and law enforcement.
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Let us put this in some perspective. It is not only claims of verbal abuse that many people treat with some skepticism. It is also a lot of claims of alleged crimes that investigators and prosecutors look at. It is also insurance claims which people file. Veterans benefits claims require submitted evidence. Social workers do home visits and establish files of ‘evidence.’ I have heard more than one commenter on this very blog say that claims of conversion need to produce evidence of a changed life-what is that if not show me the evidence? And when some kid in school who is in trouble for fighting claims that the other kid started it nobody just takes that as gospel, people inquire about witnesses. And one must not fail to consider an extremely popular opinion in our nation that both the media and the government are lying to us. No way is skepticism limited to issues of abuse.
The adage of ‘do not believe anything of what you hear and believe only half of what you read’ has some real merit.
Abuse claims should be met with compassion and concern-always. But caution also has its place.
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In 2007, Saeed pleaded guilty to misdemeanor domestic assault in Ada County Magistrate Court. He was sentenced to 90 days in jail, which was suspended, and placed on probation for a year, according to online Idaho court records. The case file was not immediately available for review.
Read more here: http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/community/boise/article57202263.html#storylink=cpy
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Did you guys realize that on today’s date January 29, 1964 the movie “Dr. Strangelove Or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb” was released.
I am thinking we should have a follow up called “The Celebrity Pastor Or How I Learned to Embrace the Totalitarian Dictator who is My Senior Pastor.” 😛
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okrapod wrote:
No idea whether Q is a Muslim. I think he’s just a troll. (For now, I’m assuming that Q is male, mainly because of his obvious contempt towards Bridget and Daisy. Could very well be female, but “male” is my working hypothesis.) He comes on here implying that we’re all being unfair to poor, poor Saeed, and muddies the waters by citing Sarah’s obedience as an example of how Neghmeh ought to Obey Her Lord/Husband™, no matter how he treats her.
I think his blather is designed to make us lose our minds. Or at least distract us from discussing Saeed.
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okrapod wrote:
But this is the truth of it. I see more nasty comments hurled at those who claim abuse than compassionate ones. And staying on the sidelines in the name of “let them work it out in private” is that standard church response.
Mostly, I don’t think those claiming abuse are looking for people to be judge and jury on their case. They are looking for friends, prayer warriors, and kindness.
From personal experience, I wasn’t looking for righteous judgement. I wasn’t even looking for advice. Those who told me “You must divorce her” hurt me almost as much who told me “you cannot divorce her”. I was just looking for people to say “Wow, that is very terrible what you are going through. I’m so sorry this is painful, I know it must be a real struggle to work out what is right and honoring to God. I’ll be praying for you. Would you like to go out and grab a bite to eat? I’ll be I can find a sitter for you?”
The one person who helped me the most getting through my own divorce never once said if he thought I should go through with it or not. But he opened his door to me any time I needed it. He was on the phone with me most every night. His family frequently and my son and I over for dinner. He listened to me and asked questions. And he validated what I was experiencing was painful and it was reasonable that I was hurt by it.
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elastigirl wrote:
I like this!
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dee wrote:
Good for her! And good for her for thinking quickly on her feet!
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Eagle wrote:
I love it!
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I was a bit suspicious of Q a few posts back when he/she/it/they commented that he/she/it/they did not like my suggestion of noting the good churches out there. This person didn’t give a reason, but I thought it was a bit odd. Why object to noting the good churches unless you don’t like the fact that there are good churches.
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dee wrote:
She is a VERY strong brave woman. Good on her for making sure that her children are legally protected from being carried off.
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Jeff S wrote:
I agree completely, Jeff. Her behaviour fits the profile of a victim very well. Also, there is nothing about Saeed’s behaviour that would give us reason to dismiss her allegations.
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Jeff S wrote:
I know that some people do not like the idea of ‘let them work it out in private’ but and also, when we dealt with our issues the major thing that I wanted was privacy-for people to stay out of my business. So I am thinking that this is an individual call-public vs private. The thing with going public is that once it is out there it is out there forever. Something which has been said can never become unsaid, even if it is proven false. Not everybody feels either way, and that is each person’s call.
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Patriciamc wrote:
Good point.
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okrapod wrote:
The Lord set out the standard in the bible and gave us the Holy Spirit to help us understand. For those who are truly saved and not just CINOs, there should be no difficulty in recognising the standard.
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okrapod wrote:
It absolutely is the call of the people involved. That is a matter of respect, and no- if a victim wants people to stay away, then stay away. This is one reason I’m a little hesitant to talk about this situation specifically, because it doesn’t seem (from what I’ve read) that she really wants this to be a public conversation. Maybe she does. But if she doesn’t, she should be given the dignity to work out her own struggles with whomever she trusts to struggle along side her. For our part, we should just be careful how much power we give to her husband.
What I was talking about is when a victim goes public and people say “we don’t want to get involved- work it out yourself”, which is more often than not the case. Well, until someone files for divorce. Then it becomes everyone’s business 🙁
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@ Q:
I have yet to see a jury trial on abuse. It is usually one judge in family court. And most judges, in my experience as an advocate, don’t acknowledge emotional or spiritual abuse. That is why people discuss it so much. It is a real thing yet hard to adjudicate. It is not against the law to be a deceptive cruel jerk that controls through mind games. @ Lowlandseer:
The problem is drawing the line with religion and state in Islam.
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Lowlandseer wrote:
The problem is the line with religion and state in Islam. The devil in those details. Why another court needed? Big picture, long term should be a concern. But that isn’t politically correct, I know: o)
Forgive me, I am an old feminist :o)
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@ Jeff S:
Just being believed is so big I cannot overstate it enough.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Either a Saeed Fanboy, Sock Puppet, or Male Supremacist who don’ like Uppity Wimmen.
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Eagle wrote:
“VE CANNOT AFFORD DE MINESHAFT GAP!
MEIN FUEHRER! I CAN VALK!”
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Victorious wrote:
That is my first piece of advice to victims. And communicate by email as much as possible and write as if a judge is reading it.
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Victorious wrote:
i.e. “IF I CAN’T GET *MY* WAY, I’LL MAKE SURE NOBODY CAN!”
Any three-year-old would understand.
Especially if he’s never heard the word “No” in his life.
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@ dee:
Thank you!
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Bridget wrote:
“Men of the Bible” or GODS?
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Lydia wrote:
Yes. Exactly.
I remember some feelings vividly, even today. I didn’t even know if what I was feeling was *valid*. I assumed (because that’s what everyone told me) that my feelings *weren’t* valid, and if I was more like Jesus I wouldn’t be in pain.
More than anything, I sought the freedom to accept that what I felt was painful. I spent so much time trying to talk myself out of believing that I was in pain, that to have someone else believe it was HUGE.
I remember, though, when I was in that period of struggle, being scared of Christians. Because at any point as I was meeting someone and opening up to them, I knew the wall could come up where they stopped caring about me and started being more concerned with my situation. Where they would suddenly be critical of my decisions and experiences, and at that point I didn’t matter any more. They’d rather ignore my pain if they could have their belief about me. And underlying that was a denial of me. A denial that what I experienced was painful. A denial that it wasn’t OK.
I really, truly, honestly felt like the “Godly” way meant emptying myself of anything that could think or feel. Being hurt just meant I was too worldly. I struggled so much trying to “take up my cross” and empty myself of anything that was Jeff, and in the end, I couldn’t do it. So when those precious few came along and said “I believe you, and it isn’t OK”, it was as if they were telling me that it was OK to be me. That it was OK to feel pain when someone hurt me. That Jeff was valuable as he is to God.
I wrote a song about this, and while the song is actually not very good musically (one of my regrets as a songwriter), I still value the lyrics a lot. This was basically my emotional processing that it was OK to be me, and it was OK to want to not hurt.
Does it matter who I am?
They told me it was ok
That the way that I was made to be
Should all be wiped away
I tried to lose that part of me
And swallow my desire for peace
But I never overcame my hope
That one day I might be free
I could not let all that I was be emptied and destroyed
A sacrifice to bring no hope- just one more broken toy
But a still small voice called out to me
And said I’m forever his
That he loved me and he knew me
And desired that I live
He wanted me to be loved
He wanted me to be whole
He created me to be who I am
And he was in control
For so long I believed the lie
That I was nothing more than just sin
Instead of a life that’s been restored
With a heart that has been cleansed
Called out from the darkness, now to this new kind of life
No more to walk in shadows- we are dancers in the light
And that quiet voice still calls to me
And says I’m forever his
That he loves me and he knows me
And desires that I live
He wants me to be loved
He wants me to be whole
He created me to be who I am
And he is in control
Your voice is growing stronger and I hear you speak to me
You tell me that I always was your plan
So I lift up all that I have to worship and adore
To thank you for who I am
Your strong voice calls out to me
And says I’m forever yours
That you love me and you know me
And gave me life forevermore
You want me to be loved
You want me to be whole
You created me to be who I am
And you are in control
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Tina wrote:
Great points! I was on the board of a crisis center and this was a huge problem.
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Jeff S wrote:
This is the part that many people don’t understand.
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Lydia wrote:
And some have noted the importance of deleting the history on your computer if you are researching domestic abuse resources. A control freak might monitor your computer use.
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Bridget wrote:
I heard an argument once that this might have come from a cultural clash between Mesopotamian/Semitic tribal culture (Abram) and Egyptian (Pharoah). Went like this:
First, in Abram’s culture wives were expendable. His “cowardice” at throwing Sarah at Pharoah while she was still married to him would be normal and even expected for him. Save the man by expending the woman.
Second, in Semitic tribal culture Sisters had higher status than wives. Wives were property/breeding stock from Outside the Clan, Sisters were Clan Kin. Abram might have thought highly enough of Sarah to adopt her as his Sister, raising her status to Close Kin. (Which then makes him throwing her at Pharoah higher on the “save my own ass” spectrum.)
Being as how Sarah’s position as Sister (instead of a mere wife) would be a point of prestige, Abram would have stressed this to Egyptians of importance. If this was not an Egyptian custom, Pharoah (or whichever official was in charge of procuring for his harem) might have figured “she’s his sister, not his wife — in any case, they’re just Khabiru nomads from the Eastern desert.”
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Lowlandseer wrote:
Well, there you have it. Proof. This isn’t a “He said/she said.” He was convicted of domestic abuse. The Church ought to stand up for her, IMO.
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Forrest wrote:
Especially when hubby is a Persecuted Hero of the Faith who’s now hobnobbing with the Christianese rich and powerful (like Franklin Graham). He’s now one-upped in a position of Power with Powerful Friends in High Places. And it’s for The Cause.
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Jeff S wrote:
Yes! Because they have to be “biblical” as they understand “biblical”. it is demoralizing.
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Q wrote:
Was Sarah ever in a situation that would illustrate to us what lengths she might have gone to to protect her children?
More to the point, we are not followers of Sarah. Would Jesus want a mother to protect her vulnerable children? I have no question in my mind that he would, he designed us that way.
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Lydia wrote:
But if widowed, she was managing her inheritance from her late husband (including the merchant business) in her own right as her own property. (You also saw this in late Medieval Europe.)
In which case, Mo married up — to his Boss. (I don’t know whether her property and business would have been his or remained hers or was now joint property — depends on Meccan Arab inheritance law and property rights of some 1300 years ago.)
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Jeff S wrote:
Yep. I ask them how come you don’t think you are of as much value as your abuser?
Jesus hung on the cross for the abuser, too. If that does not mean anything to them, it is not the victims fault. Victims have no ability to confer salvation. They have to realize that they cannot change the other person.
If only pastors did not try to convince them otherwise.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Got it. A bit different than her building from scratch, though. I believe his next wife was 6 or was it 9?
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Lydia wrote:
I was told by a well regarded woman at the church (in fact, I’d even led the worship at her husband’s funeral) that I had not loved my wife with “agape” love, because if I had, our marriage would not be failing. She told me “agape” love does not fail.
And of course, there were multiple people to remind me to love my wife the way Jesus loved the church. And what did he do for the church. He DIED for the church.
Not only was I wrong to hurt, but I was wrong in not being able to fix someone else. Wrong for not being able to be her savior.
That was so painful, and it’s the reason I am so passionate about this subject. I want no one else to go through what I did, and I very, VERY much wish to share with them the life I have today. I am beyond blessed, happy, and just continually overflow with joy. This is what I want for others, and the poison the Christians around me were selling does not lead to this. It leads to death.
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@ Jeff S:
I am glad you are passionate about it because people need to hear it.
I sometimes think people read or are taught something like the sermon on the Mount as if they need to find someone to continuously slap them so they can be pious and it is what Jesus wants.
It does not occur to them that that this is not good for the perpetual slapper! If they profess Christ, it is despicable.
Jesus was not teaching the Jews they should put up with that sick pattern of behavior from each other! He was speaking to their unjust occupation by the Pagan Romans for which they had no alternative.
This idea that piety lies in having no boundaries is sick and is perpetuated when there are kids involved. And some pastors are out there teaching it.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It is held that Khadija – a widow twice over and a wealthy trader – initiated the marriage proposal herself.
http://www.al-islam.org/articles/khadijah-daughter-khuwaylid-wife-prophet-muhammad-yasin-t-al-jibouri
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bonnie knox wrote:
There is a difference between father (little f) and Father (big F.) Abraham is the the father of many nations as God promised. Unfortunately, those many nations are at war with one another due to the sin of Abraham impregnating Hagar.
Abraham was a sinful man who was still righteous only because he followed God the Father of all of us. My father died 10 years ago. I know he loved me but he did not follow God until the last 6 weeks of his life. I do not look to him for my faith but to my Father.
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I am tweeting out your find. Thank you. Naghmeh is grateful to you.
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dee wrote:
“For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, “A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU”) in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.”
Hopefully this also answers the weird muslim question.
And Abraham may have been afraid at times but he was not a coward.
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@ Jeff S:
I really, really related to your post. I have gone through the same thing, but with other details – I once had depression, still have anxiety / anxiety attacks, the long grief I went through when my mother died.
A lot of Christians I went to in person, even some of my family, taught me it’s wrong to admit to having emotional pain, being needy.
I got the message I was to stuff all the painful feelings down and pretend they were there. Some Christians were more concerned I handled the pain in a “godly, biblical” way than they were in being a comfort to me and so on.
I totally related to your post. I’ve been there, but in different situations.
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Daisy wrote:
I meant, I was taught to pretend those feelings were not there.
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Victorious wrote:
Books I have which have chapters on domestic abuse sometimes advise the reader, “If you are in an abusive relationship, you might want to hide this book from your partner, or else if your partner finds it, they may be angered to discover you reading it.”
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Q wrote:
Whatever you call him, he lied (and ordered his wife to lie) out of fear. There is nothing in scripture to indicate this was a righteous act, and every reason to believe it was sinful.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This -and some of the other stuff you wrote- sounds vaguely similar to books I had to read about Muslims back in sociology classes in college and some anthropology class.
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@ OutsideLookingIn:
Agreed and I am a Christian!
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Q wrote:
I think he was.
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Lydia wrote:
I have read how some preachers basically teach wives that sanctifying the husband is up to the wife, which I find unbiblical and ridiculous. It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to sanctify a person, not a spouse.
The preachers put this huge, unrealistic burden on the wife to play the Holy Spirit role to the husband, to turn the husband around.
This is a little backwards from the usual set-up in gender complementarian views that would have us believe that the husband is the “head” (Savior, Jesus-like figure) to the wife.
Usually the husband is to play the “Jesus” role to the wife, but if abuse by the husband towards the wife is in play, then many Christians or churches expect the wife to play the solid rock, shining example, Jesus figure. It’s odd how that works.
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@ Jeff S:
I am so, so sorry. I’m sure some of the Christians who told you that stuff probably (I hope) meant well, but even well-intentioned comments can hurt or cut deeply. I am soooo sorry.
I can just imagine Naghmeh must be seeing, reading, or hearing similar comments by Christians that hurt or frustrate, and I am so sorry for her too. 🙁
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Interesting point about the value of sisters over that of a wife.
The culture of the near ancient east/Mesopotamian area are so foreign to us that it’s nearly impossible to comprehend some of the practices without understanding that many were not only permissible at that time, but considered exemplary. For example, political marriages were a means of changing a hostile, threatening relationship with a neighboring nation into one of a military ally.
I think the Code of Hammurabi reflects the code of laws of that timeframe though it’s now suspected it came much later than Abraham’s time. Nevertheless, if it is similar to some of the many law codes of that period, Sarah was perfectly within her right to send Hagar away since laws allowed such action in the event a concubine showed disrespect to her mistress.
It’s a fascinating study that gives such valuable insight into understanding early cultures.
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@ Lydia:
I take it you mean the passage where Jesus talks about turning the other cheek?
A lot of Christians tend to forget about the later incident, where Jesus was slapped unjustly by a temple guard. Jesus challenged the guard on the action, he did not turn his cheek.
From John 18:
Then one of the Temple guards standing nearby slapped Jesus across the face. “Is that the way to answer the high priest?” he demanded.
23 Jesus replied, “If I said anything wrong, you must prove it. But if I’m speaking the truth, why are you beating me?”
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I’m really not fond of Graham’s complete response in this article I am linking you all to in this post.
Graham is trying to stay neutral-sounding and non-committal regarding the allegations of spousal abuse.
As Jeff and Barbara at A Cry For Justice blog have explained before, when people try not to “take sides,” that position has the end result of taking the side of the abuser by default,
because abusers are counting on by-standers to play the “we need to hear both sides of the story,” or “it takes two to tango” or “there are two sides to every story” card. It lets the abuser off the hook.
Franklin Graham Says He’s Trying to Help Both Saeed and Naghmeh Abedini in Difficulty
http://www.christianpost.com/news/franklin-graham-saeed-naghmeh-abedini-marriage-problems-healing-prayer-156278/
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Jeff S wrote:
“and he was called the friend of God” James two 23
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@ Jeff S:
I agree.
Yet God protected him and Sarah and blessed them.
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Jeff S wrote:
How very suitable, Jeff! Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
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Q wrote:
You understand that what I mean was whether you were to call him a coward or not. It is possible for him to be both a coward and a friend of God. But it wasn’t my goal to get wrapped around the axle regarding terms.
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Christianity aside: In the secular world if anyone says they are in danger from another person, they have the right to ask for a restraining order. Even then women are killed too often because the accused did not obey the restraining order.
Speaking as one who had been a social worker it is not often that a woman makes a false accusation. I have seen some wicked men claim to be innocent as new born babes. I have never heard any man admit to being the cause of a divorce but they too often blame the wife and try to get out of paying child support and answer the questions of those they meet.
One of things that makes you want to scream and tear your hair out is men who have molested their own children (admitted and court convicted) be reconciled to their families by the state.
If this Saeed is into pornography (not to mention what goes unreported in Muslim countries) I would think his wife is being naive to trust him around their children. And we’re talking about Idaho…………
As for the fellow on this blog who says he was falsely accused by his ex-wife, would he be so kind as to have her tell her side of the story on this blog.
I have seen women who were horribly abused. One that comes to mind is a woman who had her jaw shot off and a hole in her neck (will be disfigured the rest of her life) by her husband who got off scott free and ran off with his girlfriend.
Sometimes these women are so beaten down they don’t have sense enough to get out to protect their children.
There are wolves in sheeps clothing in the churches. As J. Vernon McGee said “you can put a pig in a 3 piece suit and take him to church but let him go and he rolls in the mud”
If someone is in danger and says so… do what you can to see that the person gets some sort of protection and sort out the details later. Don’t for damn sure take the time to make Jerry feel convinced that there’s a problem before doing anything
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Jeff S wrote:
Dang straight he was afraid! In fear for his life at the hands of tribal chieftains who thought nothing of bloodshed in order to acquire more females. It’s easy for us comfortable moderns to say he was ‘sinful’ for what may have been pragmatic actions to save his whole entourage. Where is the ‘sin’ in that? We haven’t walked a kilometer in his moccasins.
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Q wrote:
God has protected many a person in his or her folly/sin. And he has redeemed and entire people in it.
That doesn’t really provide prescriptive behavior for us.
Sara’s situation is similar the present one in any way that I can see.
We have a woman who has asked from us nothing more (that I know of) than kindness, understanding, and prayer as she struggles with what it means to serve God in a difficult situation. I think we can give her that much.
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Muff Potter wrote:
The sin would be in placing his wife in a precarious situation through dishonesty.
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@ Jeff S:
I could not bring myself to call Abraham, the father of all who believe, a coward.
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Jeff S wrote:
I guess she should have spoke up, but then we may not have this verse –
“just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.”
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If you’re invited to Jeff and Q’s wedding… don’t go and warn the spouses to be.
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okrapod wrote:
It was interesting to me that she chose the word “promote” – he was demanding that she “promote” him in certain ways. To me this word expresses something different from what she had been doing, working towards his freedom. That would be expressed with a word like “advocate” perhaps. She worked tirelessly to advocate for his release and was very influential.
The word “promote” would speak to me as more to do with promoting him to a certain place in the evangelical world. That instinct seems to sync with what he has done since he has been free.
I don’t think a spouse has the right to demand being “promoted” and especially no right to use threats to demand being “promoted.”
It’s possible that she did not have this meaning in mind, but I tend to believe that people choose words for reasons, so I am just going by that at this time.
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@ Lowlandseer:
Exactly. According to tradition, Mohammed was in her employ. She liked his work, and then she proposed.
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@ Patriciamc:
can’t take the credit for that — that’s muff’s line.
…..the truth of which helps me sleep nights.
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Q wrote:
God protected Sarah, However, many victims of domestic abuse are killed each year. His protection of Sarah is not proscriptive.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
the term “breeding stock” is troubling, imo. We’re talking about human beings, not a herd of cattle.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
a number of the pharoahs married their sisters, though when that began, i don’t know; would have to check.
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@ BC:
That is an incoherent and intelligent statement.
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BC wrote:
Like Betty Mahmoody. Her book “Not Without My Daughter” was made into a film of the same name, 1991.
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*unintelligent*
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@ okrapod:
thank you!
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@ numo:
err… Ottoman sultans.
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Bridget wrote:
This is so true! One thing that I find perplexing is when people try to turn the fathers of the faith into “heroes”. This misses the whole point of the gospel message. There are no Bible heroes aside from Jesus. The fathers (and mothers) of the faith were human beings, exactly like us. They had shortcomings, blind spots, and sin. They were products of their cultures. What was different about them? FAITH. “Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” This does not mean that everything Abraham (or the others) did was right or is a good example. This is why we need to keep our eyes on Jesus, we are followers of Jesus, not followers of his followers. At least that’s the way it’s meant to be.
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Q wrote:
You are the only one using the language of “guilty” or speaking of condemnation.
What I am reading here is a desire to be supportive in a wise and discerning way.
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Q wrote:
And Abraham was frightened by a fear . . . which is why he lied about Sarah.
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@ Jerry:
I have never commented on here before, but your claim that women will lie about abuse in order to gain custody struck a chord. Years ago my husband and I were good friends with another couple from our church. We became quite close, spending a lot of time at each others' homes — even vacationing together. I was always bothered by the way the woman treated her husband while we were around. It was nothing hideous–she wasn't cussing him out or anything–but there seemed to be a certain lack of kindness and respect. I chalked it up to her personality and felt kind of sorry for her husband.
Fast forward a few years. We both moved to different cities, and they had two boys. Then I got a phone call. The husband was in jail for physically abusing their newborn (two separate incidents). We were beyond shocked. Like you, I knew them intimately. Like you, I would have said the woman was more abusive. I could not have been more wrong. Later, she told me that she treated him the way she did in front of us as a sort of cry for help due to the way he treated her in private. It was, I think, a way of standing up for herself in the only way she could think of without actually telling us what he was doing.
It is worth mentioning that we all attended a church that taught complementarianism.
Regardless of how well you think you know a situation, you never know what happens behind closed doors.
Note from Moderator: I have added the word "Too" to this commenter's moniker since we already have someone who goes by "Anonymous".
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@ Victorious:
Great points. Not sure we can even begin to contemplate just how pagan and violent it was back then as a way of life. Not to mention the norm of using hyperbolic and idiomic language to communicate. The danger is when some try to teach the descriptive events as prescriptive.
The irony is we are follow and emulate Christ, not Abraham. Not Sarah. Even us gals are to follow and emulate the male Jesus. :o)
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@ Jeff S:
all this Abraham and Sarah stuff and emulating their supposed role modelship…
I put all this in the ‘hold on loosely’ category. all of it is sketchy, obscured by the etching sands of time & far removed place (if not redaction).
best just to treat people the way we want to be treated. and expect the same from those who purportedly love us. so much simpler.
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Q wrote:
There is this wonderful thing we have! It’s called The New Testament. Check it out sometime!
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Q wrote:
Q, Sarah’s remark in Gen. 18 was made as sarcasm. She had just overheard that she would become a mother and she laughed at such a preposterous possibility because of her and Abraham’s age.
Gen 18:12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?”
If you know of another instance where Sarah called Abraham “lord” please let us know; otherwise you must see her remarks in context of the announcement given her age. She laughed at this.
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OutsideLookingIn wrote:
It IS weird. It is like they they think they have a free pass card and well, sinners sin, so no big deal cos I am forgiven and well, God put me here. I would not be here if God had not PUT. ME. HERE. This attitude just made me nuts when I saw all the power plays, deceptive behavior and looking the other way when cruel things are done to people in churches. They have rationalized this for so long they seem to have seared their souls.
Some folks I know want a new moniker because “Christian” is just too embarrassing anymore. It puts them in the same category as a Mark Driscoll or Mahaney and it is getting old. And it can mean anything.
And I am a believer in Jesus, too. It is NOT HIS FAULT!! :o)
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Lydia wrote:
Amen! It isn’t, after all, His maleness that anyone is called to emulate, but rather His humanity, compassion, love, sacrifice, etc.
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siteseer wrote:
Hmm. In the NT, if we HAVE to follow the example of women only, I want to emulate Joanna or Suzanna. They got to travel around with Jesus.
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numo wrote:
That was confined to the Royal Family (and maybe high officials/nobles) to keep the bloodline pure. (“If your family tree does not fork…”) It’s also the reason Egypt had so many Dynasties one right after another.
It’s close to happening in Saudi Arabia, too. There it’s almost to the point that half-siblings (different mothers in the harem) can marry. Gotta keep all that oil money in the family, you know. (And upper-class Saudis are starting to show a lot of recessive-gene birth defects, In’shal’lah…)
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numo wrote:
Welcome to the world of Patriarchy, full quivers, and 200-year-plans for your Dynasty.
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numo wrote:
So SHE proposed?
Definitely a woman of some independence as well as means.
But then, this was early Arabia, before the Persian harem influence.
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Muff Potter wrote:
“Tribal chieftains” with the attitude of Herd Bulls.
When reading Thomas Cahill’s Gifts of the Jews, I was struck by the concept that ha-Torah and Tanakh were given to “uplift” us to Transcend the Animal. Not directly stated, but Cahill gives us a pre-Torah religious sexual ceremony atop a ziggurat in either Babylon or Ur (from the same culture Abram came from). The image of the “worship” struck me as two-legged pre-Human animals bugling in rut.
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Victorious wrote:
Which was how Ahab of Israel wound up with Jezebel of Tyre. And an accompanying covert op from the King of Tyre to turn Israel to the gods of Phoenicia in preparation for annexation by Tyre.
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Daisy wrote:
Heads he wins, Tails she loses.
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Daisy wrote:
Remember both Judaism and Islam originated in Semitic tribal culture. I would expect there to be parallels.
Thing is, the Jews periodically got stomped on by their neighbors and had to adapt to non-Semitic cultures while Islam started out with an unbroken 400-year winning streak (the curse of early success). There was a lot less pressure on Islam to change like there was on Judaism. Result was Islam retained a LOT more of the ancestral Semitic tribal culture.
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dee wrote:
It’s the biggest Middle Eastern tribal Inheritance Blood Feud in history.
(And I’ve been in an Inheritance Fight — they get UGLY.)
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@ Victorious:
Perhaps you should look at the context of 1 Pet. 3 where Sarah is mentioned.
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Lydia wrote:
St. Joanna is a favorite of mine. She went where Jesus was–to the cross, and to the tomb (where he wasn’t!). She didn’t go it alone–she went with the others. She couldn’t do everything but she did what she could. According to tradition, she was the wife of Herod’s steward, Chuza. She could not stop Herod’s beheading John the Baptist…but she did recover his head and give it a decent burial. I have great admiration for her and the others like her (like Suzanna).
It’s also interesting to note that Joanna provided means of support for Christ and the disciples (Luke 8) and that when she and the other women returned from the empty tomb to report what they had seen, the disciples considered it nonsense, but good old Peter ran to the tomb to see for himself.
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Lydia wrote:
Nine, though I have read Islamic scholars who said that 9 was her age when the marriage was Arranged but not performed/consummated until she came of age. However, if you’re into The Plain Reading of the Koran and Mo is your example, guess what that Plain Reading can justify….
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Q wrote:
I’m aware of the context. What in those verses would you like me to focus on other than the fact that Sarah called Abraham “lord?”
Can you at least see that when Sarah called Abraham “lord” it was in the context of sarcasm and her laughter because of their ages?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
She was six years old according to tradition.
“At the same time, he married ‘Ayishah bint Abu Bakr, who was then a six-year old child”
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Victorious wrote:
No, it wasn’t sarcasm, it was unbelief. It was naturally impossible.
It’s repeated in the NT in 1 Pet. 3 not as an example on what to call your husband but as a model for NT believers to be like certain OT saints, especially Sarah, in inner beauty, modesty, and submission to their husbands.
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okrapod wrote:
I’m sorry to not be able to help. I’m not familiar with the book but it sounds interesting.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m not sure it’s Abrahams fault, they do have a choice.
But this does bring up an interesting point on joint submission, “Abraham heeded the voice of Sarai”, so in a sense they were in it together, joint submission. Later Sarai blames Abraham for the whole thing “My wrong be upon you!”. If it is solely on Abraham one of his sins would be not being the spiritual leader, saying no, and relying on God.
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Sorry HUG, Dee wrote that^^^
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Q wrote:
Why do you keep using Sarah as an example that married women are to use?
All Christians (male and female, single and married) are to pattern themselves after Jesus Christ, not Sarah.
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You certainly have been baited off the subject to Abraham, Sarah, Mohammed.
When will we go down the garden path to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and the price of tea in China?
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Q wrote:
I called it sarcasm but for the same reason you did… “she laughed at such a preposterous possibility because of her and Abraham’s age.”
So you are choosing which examples we are to follow in 1 Pet. 3 and which ones were not meant for us to follow? We don’t have to follow Sarah’s example of calling her husband lord, but can we braid our hair? Can we wear gold rings? Are married women the only ones who model inner beauty, modesty and submission?
Or aren’t all believers called to conduct themselves in a manner that will be an example to the unsaved world?
See here….
1Pet. 2:12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1Pet. 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
1Pet. 2:14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
1Pet. 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
It’s conduct and behavior that’s the focus of the passage and it’s not exclusive to wives.
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Q wrote:
Oh for Pete’s sake, Q!! Must you read every incident in scripture through the lens of male leadership and female submission??? Nowhere is a husband called the spiritual leader over his wife.
In Genesis 21, God told Abraham to obey Sarah and do whatever she told him to do. Shall we insist husbands model Abraham and obey their wives?
All believers are called to model Christ-like behavior.
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@ Lydia:
Some folks I know want a new moniker because “Christian” is just too embarrassing anymore. It puts them in the same category as a Mark Driscoll or Mahaney and it is getting old. And it can mean anything. And I am a believer in Jesus,too. It is NOT HIS FAULT.
WOW!! I’m on the same page there!!
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@ Victorious:
The scriptures I am referring to are specifically written to wives, or in the egal world at least women. And the next set of verses is written directly to husbands or at least men. Why make a distinction?
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@ Victorious:
Well at least he waited for confirmation that time. 🙂
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Q wrote:
Perhaps you should look at some verses, Q, such as:
Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Galatians 5:14
For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
James 2:8
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Is Nagmeh your neighbor, Q?
Your comments have not evidenced any love for her, only cold, heartless, legalistic demands.
In your black and white thinking, you have shown no concern for the human beings involved and what they may have gone through or are going through. You want only to impose law.
Where is the love, Q?
John 13:35
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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If Q is a covert op trying to push the thread into irrelevant Theological minutiae, he succeeded big time.
Not how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin —
How many mints Pastor Furtick goes through at Elevation.
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siteseer wrote:
And now Q’s got us doing Dueling SCRIPTUREs….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK1FaXcqUgc
Wartburg Watch’s coverage of the Naghmeh Abedini situation will not be seen in this time slot.
Instead we present “The Q Show” with Dueling SCRIPTURES…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK1FaXcqUgc
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Back to the Abedini issue. Do you suppose it is too late to send him back to Iran? We could maybe write an apology to Iran or something for declaring him a hero martyr and all.
Seriously I would like to know whether some of the big names who were so anxious to call him a hero knew that he had that prior conviction. There may be enough edible crow here to feed a lot of folks.
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Jeff S wrote:
This is so profound.
So many, many times I have seen this kind of thinking in the church.
I’m sorry this made your experience so much more difficult but so glad you did have some friends to walk beside you and evidence the love of Christ. Friends like that are few and far between.
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@ Q:
In 1 Peter he is talking about believers who are bound in some way to unbelievers. Just thank God you are not a converted slave to an unbelieving master in the 1st Century and be done with it. :o) Or in an arranged marriage.
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Q wrote:
To slice and dice the gospel into male and female, or more specifically husbands and wives is absurd. Most of the gender-specific commands in the Bible are not exclusive to the other gender. For example, In 1 Timothy 2:9, women are commanded to “adorn themselves in modest apparel.” There is no parallel command specifically for men. Does this mean men can dress however they please? Of course not! In Colossians, fathers are told not to provoke their children. There is no parallel command to mothers. Does that mean mothers can provoke them? Of course not. Sarah obeyed Abraham; Abraham obeyed Sarah. Ephesians tells husbands to love their wives; should women love their husbands as well? Of course! Ephesians admonishes believers to submit to one another. Is that exclusive to female believers? Of course not!
This type of exegesis goes nowhere imo. There is, however, very clear words from Jesus that we should not exert authority over others as is the practice among the gentiles. We are to act as servants toward one another as He did.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Sorry HUG. I’ll stop.
My main points are, I wish this was done out of the press and I think it’s best to hear from the man before he is condemned.
Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash. ‘Tis something, nothing:
‘Twas mine, ’tis his, and has been slave to thousands.
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.
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Q wrote:
Because Peter is telling the wives of men who have not accepted Jesus as their savior to teach by example with a gentle spirit – not to preach at them, or scream, yell, tell them they are condemned, or in any way try to FORCE the men to accept Jesus.
Should the same behavior be expected from the husbands whose wives are lost, or should the husband twist the wives’ arms until they yell “uncle”????
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@ Q:
The man is free to speak now. He certainly has the stage for it. I just want her to know I believe her and am sad at the way it came out. She will feel serious pressure from the big names in evangelicalism.
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I am really tired of people treating porn use as just an average marital spat. Maybe that was true in the days when porn was just a pin-up, or calendar, or playboy magazine hiding in the bathroom. For wives however, that was cause enough to destroy real intimacy in marriage. But if you haven’t seen what the porn addict today gets off on, don’t. If you haven’t seen it, you have no right to the opinion that the problem is private between the married couple alone. The person who uses it indirectly uses the women and children in the films. I don’t believe for one minute that the porn on the flash drives getting smuggled into the Iranian prisons or any other prisons are from the Bunny channel.
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Did anyone see the article CP with Franklin Graham?
http://www.christianpost.com/news/franklin-graham-saeed-naghmeh-abedini-marriage-problems-healing-prayer-156278/
He says “I can tell one thing for sure — not everything that has been reported in the media is true”
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I’ve been away today and I’m trying to catch up, so somebody help,me out here, please. Is Q insinuating that, if everything Naghmed says is true, she should just suck it up, welcome Saeed home with open arms and submit to the abuse. ………… because, well, she’s a woman?
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Lydia wrote:
I’m not sure. I think when accused it advised to confront the person immediately (flew to Boise), obtain a lawyer, who will advise, remaining silent (no he said she said), and the TRO cases will pprobably be heard pretty quickly and there’s not a lot time to prepare.
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Q wrote:
Like what. Could he be a little more specific?
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Q wrote:
I’m sure Nagmeh shares your wish it was done out of the press, as well, but sometimes -oftentimes- things do not happen in the ideal way. It’s how we respond in those times that shows what we are.
In your scenario, one of the subjects must be condemned and the other held righteous. You seem to be more comfortable condemning the woman and holding the man righteous. I do not subscribe to your black and white thinking. In the real world, we are all mixtures of positive and negative attributes. I can believe and support Nagmeh while hoping the best for Saeed.
As far as “good name” – “none is good, save one, that is, God” (Luke 18:19)
and to further expound
Psalm 62:9
Men of low degree are only vanity and men of rank are a lie; In the balances they go up; They are together lighter than breath.
A “good name” can become an idol if one must suppress truth to retain it. Better to simply seek each day to show love and to follow Christ.
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Q wrote:
And how does he know?
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Nancy2 wrote:
I don’t know about that statement. I might more say, “men in patriarchal societies and positions have a certain view on how women should behave/react/perform”. I wouldn’t want to give some orthodox or fundamentalist folks a free pass and only make blanket statements about Muslims. From all our discussion here about comps and egals, you could equally infer, “American evangelicals seem to have a very low regard for women”. And I know saying that wouldn’t sit right with you. **and yes, where is Gram3? I have saved many of her comments. Please give her my love. I have noticed a big ‘falling away'(TM) of long-time salty commenters at TWW this last year.
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OK, I’ve read enough about “Pastor” Abedini. Does anyone know how he came about that title?
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Nancy2 wrote:
If Franklin G has personal knowledge of what is true and what is not, when and how did he get this knowledge? Did he, and the other big names in religion and politics who have championed the Saedi cause know about the man’s history all along? If so they are deceivers who have let/led the public to believe what does not seem to be true about this man’s character. Did they not have a clue? If so they are themselves deceived. It is too bad that they are not women. All that being deceived would be such good sermon material for the compmeisters.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
FUNNY!!
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Haitch wrote:
I’ve seen others ask this question of late. I’m relatively new to TWW, but as I recall Gram3 (I believe it was Gram3, but might be wrong) announced in a blog comment late last year that she was taking a break from the blogosphere.
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Q wrote:
No one has condemned him. I stated that I hoped they were able to work it out.
Did you see that he had a previous domestic abuse citation?
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The Saudi royal family is enormous; you keep making remarks like this and i don’t see the point.
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Q wrote:
Oh, absolutely, but he already had his say to a previous charge and pled guilty, or so we are told. Questioning his character at this point can be done based on the prior plea.
We seem to have had a plethora of converted muslims who have hit the big time in US evangelicalism. Is it not about time to start some vetting of people, converted muslim or not, before making public heroes of them. Failure to do that makes the people who believe the hype look really foolish. I call foul on that.
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Haitch wrote:
Yes, many of them do.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes. But see, you’re an able person and could easily have Googled all of this yourself, no?
I am really tired of the comparison of womrn to stock animals. You do it often, even though most of the readers here are women – ???
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@ okrapod:
I so agree with this.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Cahill. Yikes. I think he is way off on a lot of tjings; there certainly are better books on Judaism.
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Bridget wrote:
Oh, but only the subordinate “roles” in which we function! We are, after all, ontologically equal, while only functionally subordinate!
Uhhhhgg!
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, because evrn though a whole lot of rural people make their appearance in the OT, it was likely both written and redacted during the Exile, when a lot of the writers/-compilers/editors were living in ond of thd most sophisticated cities in the ANE – Babylon.
I also don’t think “Semitic tribal culture” was responsible for the birth of Islam; Mohammed and Khadija were making their living from trade that probably included contact with Ethiopia, Greece, Rome (and Constantinople), Egypt… possibly India, as the E. African trade routes that run from northetn Mozambique up to Kenya and Tanzania, from there to Yemen and the Gulf states, and from there, over to India, were already pretty well-established. There was a small Jewish community in southern India already, primarily due to trade.
Even though Mohammed was illiterate, he clearly was an intelligent man, as well as having had enough contact with both Jews and Christians to have heard a lot of stories from scripture. Even if in slightly garbled form, but that’s something we will never be able to pin down precisely.
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@ Q:
Why are you trolling this thread? Is it just for kicks?
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Bridget wrote:
That really was!
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Jerry wrote:
Why does Jerry appoint himself as judge and jury to Mrs. Abedini? He seems to be starting with the assumption that she is probably lying, and that she has to prove that she is telling the truth. There are a lot of “Christian” men like this, including the men at a friend’s church who kicked her out for leaving her abusive husband. Even ending up in the hospital was not sufficient evidence for them. I have another friend who was also excommunicated for separating from her husband to protect herself because he refused to pay any taxes.
With regard to Jerry’s statement that Mrs. Abedini must be lying because an Iranian prison would never allow Internet or Skype access, how does he know that this is true? And his statement that she should have just hung up if he became abusive is ridiculous. When your husband, no matter how abusive, is being held a hostile country, to hang up could cause great harm to the possibility of him being released.
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@ Haitch:
You said it! It is eady to point at the other guy re. bad deeds, but not so easy to admit our own failings.
This is certainly a weird thread. Harems and all.
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@ numo:
I’m not trolling. I don’t see some things the same, not groupthink. I’ve attempted to get the thread back on topic. I’ll take a break.
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Max wrote:
I wondered the same thing but have not been able to find the answer to that question.
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@ okrapod:
If they’re anything like the Friends of T. Jones, i doubt they care one way or the other.
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From the CP article:
So now Franklin is on the “Blame Satan” bandwagon? As though Satan enjoys truth being brought to light, and women standing up to abuse?
Such bizarre, backwards thinking…
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Q wrote:
I’ll do the same. 🙂
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https://www.brnow.org/News/January-2016/Saeed-Abedini-s-wife-Naghmeh-interviewed-post-re
This article states that Saeed grew up in an Iranian culture that subjugated women, and that someone released Nagmed’s private emails to friends to the public.
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Max wrote:
I can’t find any info on his education. Wiki simply says that he is an “ordained minister”. You don’t even have to have a GED to become an “ordained minister”. All you have to do is say that you are committed to God and the church and get a letter of recommendation from a friend!
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@ Nancy2:
The problem is, there is no detail as to how. But I’m gonna go out on a limb and note that a lot of supposedly xtian countries treat women poorly, too. Ask any woman who has traveled to Italy, Spain, Greece and most of Latin Ametica, for starters – anyplace where cultures are still predominantly patriarchal, or crazy macho, or… The catcalling in the street is the tip of the iceberg, believe me.
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Some info from. http://www.christianheadlines.com/news/5-things-christians-need-to-know-about-the-persecution-of-pastor-saeed-abedini.html
“1. How Did Pastor Saeed Become a Christian?
Abedini converted to Christianity in 2000.
Saeed’s, wife, Naghmeh [pronounced nog-MAY], maintains her husband become a Christian at age 20 after struggling with depression as a result of suicide bomber training he received from a radical Islamic terrorist organization.
“Christianity saved his life,” Naghmeh said in an interview with Fox News.
Recruited during his high school years, Abedini trained at an area mosque. The more her husband sought the ways of the Muslim faith, the further in despair he fell, says Naghmeh.
“I always tried to do my best for God,” Saeed says in a YouTube video, “but to be honest with you I did not have eternal peace in my heart.”
Feeling alone and no plan for his future, he attended a Christian church in 2000 where he became so angry he wanted to kill the pastor because, of what he considered, to be false teaching.
But one night in 2000 Abedini claims God woke him up saying, “Saeed, Saeed — I’m coming back soon. You’ve got to preach my gospel.”
Looking around the room and finding know one, Saeed went back to sleep, but that same night the terrorist recruit heard God’s voice two more times.
“For the first time in my life I felt the presence of the Lord,” explains Saeed. “I saw a huge light in the room and the voice told me again, ‘I am coming back soon. You’ve got to preach my Gospel.’”
As a result of that encounter, Saeed contends he was a different person the following morning.
2. What is the nature of Pastor Saeed’s ministry?
Upon his conversion, Pastor Saeed started a house church in Iran. In 2002 he met Naghmeh in Tehran. Two years later Saeed and Naghmen married.
Saeed and Naghmeh left Iran in 2005 for the United States, where Naghmeh has lived since she was in the fourth grade.
In 2008, Abedini became an ordained minister in the U.S. Two years later he was granted American citizenship upon his marriage to Naghmeh, an American citizen.
Pastor Saeed has dual citizenship, but Iran does not recognize his American nationality.”
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Q wrote:
No need for that. It’s not true.
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Nancy2 wrote:
If he took his children to Iran, he could easily keep them from ever coming back to America.
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Nancy2 wrote:
I did find this under Saeed Ministries Inc.
https://www.citizenaudit.org/452822205/
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@ Nancy2:
http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/timeline-of-the-saeed-abedinis-ministry-arrest/43632.htm
This had info about his ordination.
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Lydia wrote:
This has been (and continues to be) the story of my very “perfect” family. Often the worst kind of abuse hides in the form of godliness.
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Here is the school.
http://wordpress.aeaministries.org
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The Voice of the Persecuted states a 2008 ordination by the American Evangelistic Association.
https://voiceofthepersecuted.wordpress.com/tag/american-evangelistic-association/
Not much here about the American Evangelistic Association except:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Evangelistic_Association
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Bridget wrote:
The history of aeaministries http://wordpress.aeaministries.org/history/
has a recent newsletter which mentions several blogs. I went to the one entitled, “The Generous Husband” to find this “servant-leader” position of the husband.
http://www.the-generous-husband.com/2013/07/17/what-i-believe/
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Found this under marriage beliefs:
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Nancy2 wrote:
Jus Sanguinis vs Jus Soli.
The fact Saeed is an ethnic Iranian makes him Iranian under Jus Sanguinis.
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo
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elastigirl wrote:
Man-oh-Manischewitz you said a mouthful of truth there elastigirl, and I like your metaphor of sand and time. It allows me a certain measure of credence to stand on my previous speculation regarding Abraham’s supposed ‘sin’. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if it turned out that Sarah engineered the whole thing and talked Abraham down from a course of belligerence that may have gotten them all killed.
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Victorious wrote:
http://wordpress.aeaministries.org/membership-services/
I explored the site. Apparently, all it takes to become a member is an application and a personal check. Click on the link and you will see that the AEA offers a “spiritual covering for every member”. Go to the bottom of the page and click on “Learn about the Credentialing Process ……..”
Nuthin’ y’all. Life experiences is good enough.
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Aimee wrote:
I’ve always found that those who claim to be the most godly are actually the biggest sinners. I learned that lesson as a teen in a Calvinist church (PCA – thank God I doubted their man is good, woman is bad nonsense).
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Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Why do people feel so confident to state what Satan or God would like? Do they have some kind of inside line?
I just feel that this is wrong. Why can’t people just speak for themselves? Personally I would respect him saying “I love these two people and would hate to see anything damage their lives” but when it becomes “Satan would like nothing more…” it just seems maudlin to me and I don’t get where he has been given authority to be Satan’s spokesperson.
If we are honest, we have no clue what is happening in the spiritual realm and ought to have some humility about that… Sheesh…
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siteseer wrote:
They listen to God with one ear, Satan with the other, and then speak out both sides of their mouth?⁉️
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numo wrote:
I think when HUG does that, he’s not saying that is what he personally believes about women.
He’s trying to convey that is what some men in some religion traditions think about women, or how they treat women (and I’d have to agree with him on that). HUG can correct me if I’m wrong on any of that.
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Q wrote:
The overall pattern for Christians to follow regardless of their gender is Jesus Christ – not Sarah.
As a never-married woman, all your blathering about Sarah supposedly being a role model (for married women?) doesn’t register with me anyway.
And if I ever marry, it will probably be to a Non-Christian because I don’t trust 99% of self professing Christian ones (some of the present males on this blog, such as Jeff aside, who are decent people) as far as I can throw an elephant.
Especially not the Christian guys who are obsessed with male headship and being authoritarians over a wife, even if they try to sugar coat this control by calling it “servant leadership.”
Viva la being single – and not feeling obligated to follow and adhere to every little teaching Christians insist one must, either. It does have its perks.
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Daisy wrote:
A good friend of mine told me how she noted all of the widows in the church she grew up in were so much happier than the married women.
Pingback: Naghmeh Abedini And Sorting My Painful History | Divorce Minister
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Daisy wrote:
That’s what I’m trying to say.
Using very strong language to show the attitude these guys have.
(For instance, I didn’t come up with the term “penis home” for woman. And I didn’t try to pass it off as Godly. Now meditate on the attitude it implies.)
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siteseer wrote:
God thinks so highly of them He has them on speed-dial.
Actually, more like invoking Cosmic-level Authority.
“God Hath Said!” has a lot more clout than “Because I Wanna”.
(And wasn’t there one Commandment out of ten about exactly that?)
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Nancy2 wrote:
Just like a Diploma mill.
Do you get to be a Bishop, Apostle, or Pope if you send a big enough check?
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@ Daisy:
I don’t disagree at all with his assessment – it’s the way it’s worded that troubles me. Nothing persinal toward HUG; it just is getting on my nerves, given the context and all of thst. All human beings are just that.
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@ Muff Potter:
Sort of like Abigail? You gotta wonder how many lives Abigail saved with her wise decision.
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Lydia wrote:
Mayhap very much like Abigail. My comment on the Abraham thing was purely speculative and prompted by elastigirl’s imagery of sand and time. The Hebrew Bible stories are like granite obelisks in the sand, they’ve been there for a long time. To say that one view of a particular narrative is the only valid one, says also that only a specific mechanical reductionism can be used on Scripture. An idea which I categorically reject.
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numo wrote:
I met someone once, a Western woman, who had lived in a harem and spoke very positively about her experience (had to pick my jaw off the floor, but there you go) I know where you are coming from with some of HUG’s ‘breeder’ comments etc – and I 100% believe that HUG doesn’t think at all this way towards women. But it is hard to read sometimes, and honestly, sets off a bit of a sick feeling for me, knowing that there are those who ascribe to those views and live accordingly. I think for someone coming in here to read later and not knowing the context for a comment on (search terms coming up) “Piper’s wife spewing throne room” it would read as pretty disturbing. Which actually, knowing about the incident really really was. And also being reminded of it. I don’t have an easy answer – some of this stuff sears into my mind and I would rather not be reminded of it. But I also wouldn’t like to see those with large followings be let off the hook. #Piper’s numerous kooky tweets #Driscoll should have stayed ‘homeless’ in his blog descriptions (etc etc)
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Muff Potter wrote:
I love yours and elastigirl’s sense of poeticism (now is that the right word?), it’s a rare and thoroughly nice thing…
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Jeff S wrote:
This sounds identical in principle to Word of Faith. In their unbiblcal world, it is always your fault for not having enough faith/love etc. and victims become guilty because they are victims.
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Forrest wrote:
I have heard before that divorce is either the husband’s fault for not loving enough, or the wife’s fault for not submitting enough — like all it takes to make a perfect marriage is love from the man and submission from the wife. And, love and submission are both one-way.
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@ Aimee:
Hi, Aimee. I wanted you to know that I noticed your comment. I’m sure you have a story to tell. I hope you are free to be transparent. I assume you at least have a modicum of freedom, since there is a photo attached to your name.
I’m sure it’s been a rough road. I am sorry for the pain, shame, humiliation, loss, and I assume injustice of the whole situation.
I hope you have found friends, allies, a support system, and love with skin on.
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@ Haitch:
I think that qualifying things with “like” or “as if” would tone it down a bit.
Agreed on not letting things slide, but at the same time, i really do NOT need to have certain images burned into my grey matter and imagination. A little goes a long way, as with Tabasco sauce. Used sparingly, it’s great. Too much, though, and it’s literally painful.
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@ Haitch:
Where did this woman live?
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@ Haitch:
But wouldn’t other comments make it clear that Hug Is focused on how they think? This sort of response just reeks of the same old shame censorship and control that goes on in fundy circles. The left is just as bad in the shaming censorship arena. It is one thing to insult victims but quite another to make uncomfortable parallels to the sort of thinking that produces abuse and those that excuse them.
Where is the “tolerance” in how others communicate about these horrors?
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@ Lydia:
You’ve been saying this sbout my comments ever since I 1st got here, about 5 years ago. We are both free to speak here, yes? There’s no shame in that!
Now, as I’ve said before, it’s probably best for me to just not comment on your comments, since it seems thst things invariably go downhill when i do respond.
Pax,
numo
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A screenshot of the 2007 domestic assault case has been posted at the link below, and in the comment thread underneath it there are details and links for the relevant Idaho statutes (definitions of and punishments for “assault”).
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/01/31/for-the-continuing-naghmeh-doubters-yes-saeed-really-did-plead-guilty/
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Haitch wrote:
When I found TWW, I could tell HUG was joking right off the bat. Doesn’t bother me one bit, and I’m a female with a bit of a temper. No offense to HUG, but I’ve been around smart-mouths my whole life. Been known to stick a few jabs myself.
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@ numo:
I apologise numo, I can’t remember which country or emirate, it would have been the middle-east or north Africa
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Nancy2 wrote:
Bully for you, but I explained how it triggered me sometimes, and I get a physical reaction. Please don’t negate or minimise me. There was no criticism implied of HUG himself, he can say what he wants and usually does. I mostly like his sense of humour and have been known to think later of something he has written and laugh out loud (then look around furtively to see if anyone noticed me). Knock your socks off HUG, in no way would I want to imply censorship or shaming. I’ve given you a hard time in the past, I know. Lydia – I have no idea what you are saying re: “the left” – this is not a political discussion and I don’t think binary in terms of right or left anyhow. Peace out.
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@ Haitch:
Yeah, my stomwch clenches sometimes when i read this kind of thing. It is a trigger for me personally. No criticism of HUG implied, just… maybe be aware that some things really *are* triggering for more than a few people who read blogs like this one?
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Nancy2 wrote:
Joking in the sense of South Park, with the subtitle “THIS IS WHAT MALE SUPREMACY ACTUALLY BELIEVES”.
I became a smart-mouth because in my situation growing up, smart-mouthing was the only outlet I had. And blog-commenting is good practice for wordsmithing.
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Haitch wrote:
Though I did have a low opinion of women for a while, many years ago after a bad breakup with the only girlfriend I’ve ever had. It’s my handle on the behavior/attitudes of the MRA/Manosphere types — I figure they got burned BAD or Worse and got stuck in full-honk revenge mode against anything female.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My cousin is one one such type – he’s hard to be around because of the venom about women that comes from his mouth. That being said, I usually don’t let him off the hook when he starts his hate-fest in front of polite dinner company as I figure silence is agreeance. Everyone else would sit there in polite shock/horror. Unfortunately the last time he tried to feel me up as I was hugging my aunty goodbye. It was done so publicly and yet sneakily. I was unable to punch him, but when I got home I rang my aunty and told her never do I want to see him at a function when I’m there. So apart from his mother he just lost his other ally, as I was a rare person who would listen to him, go outside and have a smoke with him (I don’t smoke usually) etc. Until that moment I had thought he was worth still engaging with, despite his hate talk towards women – he was depressed, alcoholic, out of work and lived in a factory.
Anyhoo, why did I say all that? I think we all do that, swing wildly against the opposite sex (sorry, leaving SSA out of this discussion) when we’ve been hurt, then eventually come back into balance. Everyone’s timing is different. It’s sad when some don’t, and stay out on the precipice, because there’s an immaturity that remains. They’re holding back their own growth and healing. Life is about aiming towards wholeness, yes? I’m listening to my own words here also. Enough talk about my cousin, he leaves me with a bit of a sick feeling inside too.
You’re alright HUG, and I’m glad you heard what I had to say, and numo too. Thanks.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The thing about South Park is that it’s not all that funny anymore, and even when it was was in its early seasons, it was very much hit and miss. I think Matt and Trey *should* have gotten past all of that by now, and i will NOT give them a pass on their Jerry Sandusky and Trayvon Martin episodes. (Though i stillmdo love Towelie and “Spooky Fish.”)
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
In other words, the whole thing is incredibly juvenile. Why anyone with an ounce of creativity would want to be stuck in a 3d grader’s mind, I’m not sure, but I’m tired of it. They could actually be much more creative within those limits, but they stick to either being insensitive or gross or both. The show died a long time ago, really.
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@ Haitch:
One thing I find odd about it-
I was engaged to a few years to a guy who financially exploited me, disregarded my feelings, and there was a tad of emotional abuse from him.
He was a total let-down as a boyfriend / fiance.
However, I did not extrapolate from that experience and one guy that all men every where are great big, money grubbing, emotionally abusive dill weeds.
So it beats me why some of these MRA / bitter PUA fans do this to women, all because they’ve had a bad experience or two with women.
All women everywhere have to pay and put up with their nonsense because some woman hurt or offended them 3 or 20 years ago.
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@ numo:
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen South Park. I’m not a fan of bathroom humor, so I could do without the potty humor on the show.
I thought the episode where they razzed Lucas or Spielberg over the last Indiana Jones movie was terribly tasteless, and not in a funny way.
Out of the early episodes I remember, I like the one where Cartman was a cop, the “dance off” episode where the kids kept saying, “you got served,” and the show where the dopey, nerdy school counselor (who was anti-drugs) got high (or drunk?) and sang the Pat Benatar song “Heartache to Heartache.”
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@ Daisy:
Oh yes, Cartman as a vop is hilarious, and i like some other bits with him, too (like when he sings when they’re stuck in Chef’s van). But yeah, the show has always been tasteless and keeps getting more so. I’d rather watch Adventure Time. 🙂
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@ Daisy:
The manosphere types have the internet, which makes it all orders of magnitude worse.
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@ numo:
Yeah, it’s the sort of show where the occasional gag or bit is funny, but a lot of it gets into vulgar potty humor stuff which I don’t care for.
My sister and I watched the episode of the drunk counselor (who says “M’Kay” a lot) together when my parents and I were visiting her town (this was a long time ago).
My sister and I went along out sight-seeing the next day with our mother singing the Pat Benatar song “Heartache to Heartache,” like the South Park school counselor, and then laughing hysterically.
Our mother thought we were nuts (our Mom never saw South Park and had no idea why we were singing, “Heartache to heartache, Mmmm’kay?”)
That show is good for the occasional yuk, I suppose 🙂
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Daisy wrote:
I love this expression, I’m adopting it…
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New post up at Spiritual Sounding Board that takes a look at the processes in “Vetting, Accountability, Licensing, and Promoting for Pastor Saeed Abedini: Exploring What Went Wrong and How.”
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/02/02/vetting-accountability-licensing-and-promoting-for-pastor-saeed-abedini-exploring-what-went-wrong-and-how/
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You people are the ladocean Church, you think you are wise, but you are poor wretched blind and naked. There is not a real believer among you. I pray that you will open your eyes to the truth, but the truth is you won’t until you face true hardship and persecution. You can call yourselves Christians but you’re fruit is rotten, remember that every branch that does not produce good fruit will be cut off and cast into the fire.
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@ Haitch:
You are most certainly welcome to use it. That was one of several, similar expressions that my family used when I was a kid.
“Dilbert” is also another one.
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Gosh. I guess that “Averagejo” missed his turnoff to the stoning……
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Averagjo wrote:
Why thank you.
Do you know, to the best of my knowledge and belief and being of a sound mind and ordinarily domiciled in England and Wales, there is not one article ever written on this site dealing with people facing hardship. Extraordinary, isn’t it. But at last my blind eyes have been openened …
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@ Averagjo:
Feel better?
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Averagjo wrote:
CHRISTIANESE BUZZWORD BINGO!
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numo wrote:
Any Loud Crazy with a Net connection makes the Loud Crazy all orders of magnitude worse.
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