“Build an army of young people who will change the world…”
Message Ron Luce Claims to Have Heard From God
Teen Mania International, which existed for almost thirty years, called it quits last week. It was founded by Ron Luce, who professed to hearing a directive from God when he was 25 — "Build an army of young people who will change the world…" An Oral Roberts University graduate who began devoting his life to youth ministry at age 16, Luce formulated various methods for reaching millions of youth. According to the Wiki article on Teen Mania International, there were six ministries within the organization, namely:
(1) Acquire the Fire (ATS) was a yearly youth conference held in 30 major cities in the United States and Canada
(2) Global Expeditions were short-term missions projects in the United States and abroad, ranging from one week to eight weeks.
(3) Honor Academy was an internship program for high school graduates and college students.
(4) Extreme Camps were held in the summer at the campus in Garden Valley, Texas. Attendees participated in a variety of activities (e.g. paint ball, ropes courses, swimming, and extreme sports) and heard Christian speakers and musicians.
(5) School of Worship was a follow-up program for graduates of teh Honor Academy. The emphasis was technical skills and spiritual leadership for musicians.
(6) Battle Cry Campaign was an organizing initiative of Teen Mania Ministries, which sought to influence American and Canadian social and political culture. Ron Luce launched it in 2005, and it ended in 2007.
Last February, we wrote about this organization in a post entitled Teen Mania Ministries: Caveat Emptor! Back in 2011 there was a huge outcry about this ministry, and a shocking documentary called Mind Over Mania aired on msnbc. Here is a clip with highlights of that documentary.
When writing last year's post, I took the time to watch this shocking documentary, which lasts about 45 minutes. It has been uploaded to YouTube in three installments and can be viewed here. Should you decide to watch it, you should be aware that there are some very disturbing scenes.
I am proud of the brave young women who blew the whistle on this abusive ministry. It is worth noting that they developed the courage to come forward after reading blogs that were critical of Teen Mania. There's no doubt about it — the internet is making a difference!
Christianity Today recently published an article about the demise of Teen Mania, and during the interview, Ron Luce quoted well-known British missionary Hudson Taylor, who once said:
"There are three stages of every great work of God. First it’s impossible, then it’s difficult, then it’s done.”
Given the documented footage featured in Mind Over Mania, it takes a lot of gall for Luce to quote Taylor. There are none so blind as those who will not see… In all likelihood, Luce will probably never understand why his ministry experienced tremendous financial problems. The CT article went on to state:
“Honestly, the hardest part about our closure is for people to misinterpret what the closing of a chapter means,” Luce said in an hour-long, exclusive interview. “Scripture talks about old and new wineskins. Sometimes old wineskins don’t need to be used anymore."
It’s not necessarily a bad thing, he said. "There are plenty of Christian organizations that become institutions, that are dead and dry, and they’re old wineskins.
"We don’t want to become that," he said. "Teen Mania has completed this assignment."
According to the Christianity Today article, Teen Mania had HUGE coffers. Incredibly, In the 2001 fiscal year,
Teen Mania recorded $23.1 million in total revenue. By 2007, revenue shot up to $35.6 million.
Seven years later, revenue dropped to $20.1 million after someone canceled a $6.1 million pledge. Perhaps information was beginning to leak out about what was going on behind the scenes at Teen Mania. Three years later, the msnbc documentary aired.
The CT article alludes to this documentary in the following excerpt:
In addition, some alumni accused the program of spiritual abuse. “The Honor Academy was built to produce character and … ‘put fight’ in a younger generation. That never changed,” said Luce. “What changed was what was deemed acceptable by the younger generation.”
Luce said coaches and military leadership used to be able to motivate young people by verbally threatening them. “Don’t you dare demand something hard out of me,” gets construed as “you’re abusing me,” he said.
“These things happened in culture without us fully appreciating and understanding that maybe we should change our programs,” he admitted. For all the alumni that loved their Honor Academy experience, he said, social media over-amplified the voices of the “few dozen that complained.”
It's no telling how many those 'few dozen that complained' represented. It was blatantly obvious from the video that abusive tactics were being used. Shame on Ron Luce and his lieutenants for claiming to be doing God's work. đ
The CT article goes on to give details about the financial woes of the organization that contributed to its demise. It further states:
Teen Mania, which was founded in Oklahoma, will proceed with liquidation through the state’s bankruptcy court.
"After receiving counsel from pastoral leaders, Teen Mania board and legal counsel, it has been determined the best way to draw a close to this season is by liquidating all assets of the ministry in an attempt to satisfy vendors,” it stated on its website.
What can we learn from this debacle? As parents, we need to scrutinize the ministries in which our children participate. Sadly, it took way too many years for teens to develop the courage to speak out about a spiritually, mentally, and physically abusive ministry. How many lost their faith due to Teen Mania's domineering leaders?
Furthermore, it takes courage to speak out about abuse. We applaud these young ladies for coming forward about the abuse they experienced through Teen Mania International. We believe their bravery spared many others who would have suffered the same fate.
We wouldn't be surprised to see Ron Luce launch another ministry in the future. We hope the information provided in this post will be helpful to our readers. We all need to vet the ministries we want to support carefully and protect our youth!
Can it be that I’m first?
Uno!
Wait, wrong game.
@ Darlene: Yes!
What is it with Evangelicalism and fads? Seems these folks have to spin the closing in a way that makes them look good…”Teen Mania has completed this assignment.” The Christian cult that I once belonged to, which was geared toward young people, had its way of motivating members as well. Some of the tactics were public humiliation, peer pressure, and brownie points from the leader/pastor if one towed the line and followed all the rules.
By the way, the leader/pastor in the cult to which I belonged started a training camp in NYC called the Manhattan Training Center. It was meant to prepare us for the last days. Members had little sleep, worked long hours, attended Bible studies that lasted from 8 pm till approx. 1:00 – 2:00 am, and went marathon witnessing on weekends. At first we were crammed together in lofts where the living conditions were squalid (think mice and roaches). We ate very poorly and had to go to the public showers at the Bowry. Everyone handed in their paychecks and lived on a meager allowance. If a member needed clothing or toiletries, they had to write out a special request – sometimes it was approved and sometimes not. It wasn’t long before people were getting sick – my husband ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. When members complained about the poor living conditions, the leader/pastor told us: “Jesus never had it this good.” Eventually, with so many people getting sick from the same group, it became apparent to the health workers at the hospital that something was amiss. We were reported to the authorities and the fire department informed us that we were being evicted from the lofts due to the overcrowding and unsanitary conditions. The leader’s response toward the authorities was that the world just doesn’t understand what it takes to be a committed Christian. Quite a few members left during this period; it is a wonder anyone was able to leave and keep their faith in God.
Teen Mania finally burned out?
“Army of young people” as in Chairman Ron’s Red Guard?
Or just the “Tomorrow Belongs to Me” number from Cabaret?
Yet another non-profit with board members from Enron.
@ Bill M:
So–you have my attention!! Please explain what you mean by that sentence. Were you being snarky or was it revealed that Enron members had become board members of a non-profit?
About the year programs like Teen Mania began, teens were looked on as troublemakers and non-persons by the church unless you looked like the Christy Minstrel singers. Roloff and his homes were going strong as well as Teen Mania, Bill Gothard etc. as parents gave up their roles to these people. It was a sad time, as many lives were ruined by these abusive tactics, all in the name of Christianity and the church.
If the government would try and step in, just like the JW’s, they saw it as persecution for their faith. What a crazy time in the fundamentalist church. What were they thinking comes to mind.
I for one am glad to see them destroyed, but wonder why it took 30 years to do it.
I think as a rule of thumb that whenever someone claims they have ‘heard from God’ to do something, they haven’t.
The people I have heard whom I think probably have heard from God or are ‘speaking in the Spirit’ never claim this. Why should they need to? This is something for listeners to discern, not speakers to claim.
Gee, was not familiar with Teen Mania…..ignorance was bliss. Totally agree with the Deebs, don’t entrust your children to any group. Stay vigilant.
Oh my word, this is a wicked organization. Pure evil and nothing about it is Christian. This man should be in prison!!!!
@ nancyjane:
Perhaps Bill M is referring to a sentence in a World Magazine article from 2014 which I didn’t even mention in the post.
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/04/management_mania
Here’s a quote (from page 2)
“Accounting expert Albert Meyer, the president of Bastiat Capital who identified irregular accounting practices at Enron, Tyco, and elsewhere, reviewed Teen Maniaâs recent IRS 990s and told me he saw a variety of red flags, including high debt load and overspending…”
A THIRTY year long youth ministry that trained young people and provided the opportunity for mission trips, among other things, — and you call it a “debacle”? Good ole TWW, tearing down ministries at every opportunity! The only first hand experience I’ve had with Teen Mania is the teens from my church attending Acquire the Fire for several years, and it was always excellent. I’m not gonna hail Luce as a hero, but he had a vision, worked hard to make it happen, and affected millions of teens in a positive way for the Kingdom of God. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shutting down a ministry when it’s deemed that it is no longer effective — more churches and organizations should do just that! Despite some mistakes that were made (just like in EVERY ministry), I commend Teen Mania for making a difference in this world for the sake of Jesus’ name.
@ DT:
Have you seen the documentary included in the post? I have, and it was horrible!
I am grateful my daughters were never exposed to it and glad I didn't contribute financially.
Darlene wrote:
The word “fad” was what I was trying to think of the other day. We have the Christian bookstores, Christian products, Christian music, Christian fiction, etc. etc. It seems that every few years there’s a new fad. Promise Keepers, Prayer of Jabez, Fireproof, Courageous, and now War Room. I’ve ordered War Room because I’m curious to see the movie, but I’m bothered by the products surrounding it, as if there’s some sort of “formula” to make your prayers work. Sometimes you can pray according to the “formula” and *not* get your prayer answered the way you want.
I was disappointed by the CT article- while they accurately reported the various financial disasters incurred by Teen Mania, they essentially allowed Ron Luce to get the last word and spin the organization’s closure as “completing the mission”.
On a separate note, I just have to shake my head at leaders who are upset that it’s no longer socially acceptable to beat and verbally abuse teenagers as a “motivational tactic”.
Their teen ministries were a microcosm of what happens in the churches you always talk about–giving people lots of authority over other people leads to abuse. And people think it is a spiritual experience.
After many, many years in Christianity, I finally learned and now believe to never give other people that type of authority over me, ever!
As I recall, Teen Mania had serious financial problems for years. In reality, Luce was a poor manager. Now, it is being spun as ending a season of God’s plan. What a crock.
DT wrote:
Well done – the old minimizing expression ‘mistakes were made’ AND sin leveling all in one phrase!
You really might consider watching the linked video…
Tina wrote:
Reminds me of one of my favorite little aphorisms:
“God always answers prayers – sometimes the answer is ‘no’.”
@ Rob:
I agree with you and Ethan.
Does anyone know if this group’s Texas property was what use to be Last Day Ministries (the late Keith Green’s ministry)?
Interesting how this man early on claims to have heard from God. He may have in fact early on had a call to do what he did. Unfortunately he apparently stopped listening to God. Had this man continued to listen to God and not lean onto his own understanding God would have given him direction as to what changes should have been made to stay on course.
Assuming that this was a legitimate ministry during its early days it is really grieving for it to end this way. Unfortunately this is the way a lot of ministries result. Mens’ egos (and I did mean to use the word men vs. a unisex term) usually get the best of what might have been starting with good intentions.
BTW when I tried your link for the Christianity Today article it didn’t work. I was able to Google and get it.
Wow. Watching the msnbc video reminded me so much about my teen years. I never attended teen mania, but I remember wanting to. I attended other teen camps that were full of manipulation and guilt. I just wanted to be on "Fire for Christ". The way those camps and church made me feel eventually led me to suffering a major depression and becoming suicidal in my mid twenties. I suffered from major feelings of inadequacy (which I still feel to a certain extent today). I just felt like I was never good enough. I didn't pray enough, fast enough, read the bible enough, proselytize enough. When I saw that one girl in the video talk about how she can no longer attend a worship service, not because anything bad happened there, but because it reminds her of that world, I completely related. I am 6 years post church and I cannot stomach church. My body literally repulses the idea of being part of a church congregation again. I cannot even fathom the thought of ever submitting to pastoral leadership ever again. I feel it would require leaving my brain and my will at the door. Whenever I hear someone say God told them to or God is leading them to, I think they're manipulative or coo coo for coco puffs. I hurt for those kids. I hurt for myself. Like they said on the video, the only thing we were guilty of is trying to prove that we loved Christ above all else. What a f###ing (ed.) crock of sh## (ed.) Please excuse my language, but I am still so f###ing (ed.) angry. I'm still not over it.
Totally agree; Scripture says that the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable and easily understood (James). An invitation to follow and obey, rather than coercive threats and condemnation.
Ken wrote:
Ken wrote:
@ Steve240:
Thanks for letting me know.
@ DT: Any comment on the abuse?
Dee wrote:
He did comment – ‘mistakes were made’. You know, just like in all ministries. Sheesh.
roebuck wrote:
Double sheesh!
I saw a video about ‘Teen Mania’, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAKGVF3EooA (it has three parts) and I wonder why weren’t the adults prosecuted and imprisoned . . . what was shown on those films had nothing to do with Christianity . . . I also want to know how it was that this group managed to gather 300 million dollars from supporters ??????
Something is very wrong with ‘fundamentalism’ and I thank God for groups that expose these jerks. Of course they are no longer ‘in business’ . . . even as a cult, it looks to be among the worst in its treatment of kids
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roebuck wrote:
Dee – I’m at work and can’t watch the video until I get home.
Roebuck – It’s good to know there are perfect people and perfect ministries out there that never screw up…..SHEESH!
Listen, if the video evidence is as bad as you guys say it is, I’m sure I’ll have the same opinion of the abuse as you all do. I don’t excuse sin in my life or anybody else’s. My ultimate point is that it does NOT negate 30 years of effective ministry that has positively affected the lives of many, many teens for the Lord and I don’t think it justifies the judgement being poured out on this blog.
I am a faithful WW reader and also was someone who was heavily involved with Teen Mania as a teenager. I remember going to remote villages in Ecuador and performing this intricate mime to get these villagers saved as quickly as possible. Then we got back on the bus and went back to our four star hotel. Teen Mania damaged me spiritually in many, many ways and it took almost three decades before I was able to really have a relationship with God, not based on the rules of TM.
Interestingly enough, this morning I read an article on “voluntourism” and it brought me right back to those days in the early 90’s.
http://almost.thedoctorschannel.com/14323-2/
So God supposedly told Ron to build build Me an army worthy of Mordor……oops, I mean, young people who would change the world. Ok, so how many Teen Mania grads went on to do just that? During the past 30 years I haven’t heard of a single Billy Graham, world famous politician, great scientist, best selling author, internationally popular entertainer, etc. who was known to be a product of this “ministry”.
Ack, this darn smartphone.
Even if RL is planning some sort of comeback, I’m sure he couldn’t face the fact that TM really imploded due to serious abuses of youngsters and deplorable financial mismanagement. This thing has been Ron’s identity for most of his adult life.
@ Jess:
Would you like to tell about your TM experience in more detail, perhaps in a guest post?
nancyjane wrote:
In this case Enron is a valid parallel. Teen Mania had poor practices and problems that were evident for years. Come this October an arrest warrant goes out for the founder and half the board of directors are gone. What? They didn’t know what was happening before? Did they have blindfolds on and ear plugs in?
If you are on a non-profit board, do your jobs people, don’t sit there deaf, blind, and mute. Investigate, be skeptical, if you don’t like what you see and can’t change it then resign and make a stink, it can and has been done.
@ Jess:
This is exactly where I think the SBC is going to focus under Platt. Mission tourism. Short term mission gigs. And yes, they can cause more problems than people imagine.
Maybe this aspect has been brought up on this thread or another, but thought I would mention it here. I remember when my kids were in their early teens there was a lot of pressure from the Christian community to send them to these parachurch conferences etc., I did not think it wise and did not, it was like I was over protecting them or something. Glad I didn’t.
Ethan wrote:
This reminds me of the recent series of Geico ads, “its what they do”.
Deb, I'd be honored
DT wrote:
Peoples Temple existed for 23 years. Does the length of a ministry correspond to its credibility?
@ Darlene:
Have you ever seen the documentary “Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydHRESPjBxg
There’s one interview where ex-members describe how busy they were. One says that they used to compare how little sleep each one had the previous night. It was so familiar to me that it gave me chills.
Years ago our Supt. of Schools allowed Teen Mania representative to speak to our high school ( I was in a Houston area school at the time)….at that time, the faculty and administration realized something was "not quite right" and they were not allowed back…..
Tina wrote:
And there are so many people to swallow up these retail products also. Besides setting off domestic violence triggers (I’m going off memory of a film review), War Room is just “The Secret” rebadged in Christian language, no?
DT wrote:
Call me a doubting Thomas – that’s an opinion that I’d like to see adequately qualitatively and quantitatively justified.
@ Jazmin:
It infuriates me how these groups prey on sincere teens looking for community and authenticity.
They prey on them to build empires with lots of teen followers whose brains have not fully developed. That is why it takes so long to heal from it. Teens are easy prey for these things.
Rob wrote:
I’d venture to say that Mr. Luce could easily retire to a villa in the South of France just like many African dictators used to do. Remember, religious non-profits are not under the same financial scrutiny as secular non-profit organizations.
No tellin’ where all that jeezus money went to.
Bill M wrote:
Hear-hear!
DT wrote:
Among abusive organizations, some abuse a majority of participants, and some abuse a small percentage.
If (please note the “if”) Teen Mania’s leaders created an environment that deliberately fostered abuse, and then hid or denied it, then the teens who had a “good experience” were unwitting cover for the abuse of other young people. Perhaps those who liked Teen Mania might have had an even better experience in a program where abuse did not happen.
I am making a general observation, based on my experience of abusive groups. Like you, I cannot view the video right now.
Tina wrote:
Stick with the saints, y’all.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia,
There is also pressure put on the parents to allow and fund it, some who do are probably well meaning, but when you’re the only one saying no and it takes years for the truth to come out it’s tough.
Ethan wrote:
Teenagers are an easy target for these kind of *movements* especially if they hail from a troubled home life. For abusive leaders, the end justifies the means. So abusing teens in boot camps for the Lord (sic) is acceptable because it will squash the folly that resides in them and make them warriors for the kingdom of God. I’ve been there and done that when I was young and understand how these manipulators work.
Over at the Wondering Eagle we are celebrating Festivus in honor of D.A. Carsons’ birthday. We are having the annual airing of grievances. Feel free to jump in!
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/happy-festivus-everyone-the-annual-airing-of-grievances-at-the-wondering-eagle/
roebuck wrote:
Ah….but the response is: How can the world understand what it takes to be a committed Christian. They are unbelievers and biased against the cause of Christ – what do they know?
@ DT:
I was involved with teen mania in the 90s when I was a teenager. I always saw them as intense but I enjoyed be challenged and thoroughly benefited from the ministry. I never went to the academy because it did have a reputation for being a little more extreme than I prefer but I do know quite a few people that were part of it and also benefitted from their time there.
I haven’t watched the video but I am not surprised by people having bad experiences. I can think of several friends who moved away from Christianity after being involved with teen mania.
I think it is possible for god to work in people’s lives even in an imperfect ministry like teen mania. They certain had their issues, and the more I read about them these past few years the more imperfect they seemed to be. But at least in the early years I believe teen mania was a good ministry that positively impacted thousands of lives.
Jazmin wrote:
Remember, the god these manipulators presented to you is a false one. But allow yourself to feel the hurt, and don’t let anyone tell you to just forgive and move on. You really need to understand how the abuse that you suffered affected the core of your being, how and why you were conned (so that you don’t get fooled again), and most importantly – you need to experience peace within your soul again. Whoever abused you took the idea of God and twisted it in order to control you and keep you under their power and influence. They distorted the character of God from a loving Father to a Harsh Taskmaster, and harmed you in the process. But I want to tell that there is hope and joy after spiritual abuse.
Whoops….sorry about my post above. Some of my comments ended up in italics, but I hope – Jazmin – that you read them and find encouragement.
Kyle wrote:
All ministries are imperfect, but not all are abusive. My local church has a thriving program for teenagers, and I have never heard of our mission trips or camps being excessively challenging or extreme. It seems a great pity that people would support a program so troubled that it drives people away from Christianity, when healthy programs exist. (I do understand that you were a teen and you were not harmed.)
roebuck wrote:
Sound familiar? “Mistakes” seems to be the coverall word. I doubt this manipulator used the word mistakes when he was abusing those teenagers.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/ron-luce-teen-mania-financial-collapse-152893/
Look at the end of the article to see who he identifies as his pastor
I find that very interesting. First Driscoll spends time with this guy and now Luce, birds of a feather flock together.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
BTDT: Oh yes, I’ve have seen that documentary on Jonestown. The tactics Jim Jones used are very similar to the what I experienced. I was in the Christian cult when I first saw the People Magazine cover of all those dead folks who drank the Kool-aide. After I read what had happened, I said to another member: “Are you thinking what I’m thinking?” And she replied, “What are you thinking?” I said, “I’m thinking we might be in a cult.” She replied, “I’m thinking the same thing! But please don’t tell anyone!” So, we both made an agreement to keep it a secret. That same evening the leader/pastor called a meeting to address The People’s Temple mass suicide. It was his con game to keep the gig going and stave off any doubts among us members that we were a cult – the manipulation was astounding. He admitted there was a cult among us….but he, the perfect leader/pastor that he was – was not a part of that cult. Rather, the cult among us was us – the lowly members – and it was a cult of our own making. But he had the answers how to escape the cult that we had caused, so that we wouldn’t commit “spiritual suicide.” And so he kept the spin going.
Lydia wrote:
Yes, I agree. And teens are considered a badge of success in these kinds of movements. Look at all the young people who are serving the Lord! We must be doing something right. Surely, we are more successful than those lukewarm churches out their with their pathetic teen youth group.
Darlene wrote:
This is a classic trick. Co-opt the issue to deflect. TGC and T4G guys did this after the SGM/Mahaney child molestation scandal. They wrote treatises on how to develop policy. But NOT ONCE did they mention the victims of SGM/Mahaney or his prominent position within their movement. Not once.
So they dealt with the issue. Nevermind they were also promoting and supporting a guy who protected molesters.
Friend wrote:
One of the most difficult things to admit after you have been spiritually abused in such a devastating way is to admit that you were had. It’s also very difficult to admit that you were, in fact, part of a cult. To the degree that one believes and buys into the ploy of the abusive leader/pastor, it is to that degree that one must yank themselves free from the lie. It took me a number of years to actually admit that I was a member of a cult. Many ex-members were afraid to use the c-word – it meant in their estimation that they were renouncing everything that they had learned in the group. For me, it took quite a while to realize that even though I had suffered spiritual abuse, not everything that I was taught about God was false. There was true teaching to be found within the mess. But isn’t that how narcissistic leaders work? They mix in lies with the truth hoping the ignorant followers will not notice.
Lydia wrote:
Seems they all use the same play book.
Q wrote:
Oh, I agree. Parents are notoriously naive about “institutions”. They think they send their kids to “Christian camp” and it is a place of trust. They do the same with school. The problem is it is very time consuming to be involved and most are working.
I think one of the most important things we can do is educate our children and help them recognize red flag behaviors and teaching. It can be done. We discuss these things all the time. We have also spent a ton of time since they were very little on the “real” Jesus so they can spot the counterfeit. (Jesus never wants you to follow a human–only Him) May not always work but at the very least I hope they will NOT be good little lemmings. :o)
Thank you for your words Darlene. A professional counselor is something I should look into.
I’m watching that video right now. The attendance fee was $8,000 per student! What? For that kind of training? I saw the part where they were made to eat “vomit-inducing” food (sic) – y’know, like worms. How in the world is this Christian? Someone should have told that Luce character to be the example and go through the training with these kids. What a smug man he is. No doubt he has NPD and a classic God Complex.
One of the ex-members said that they rob you of your humanity. I understand completely. Watching this video is very much like a replay of my cult experiences.
What struck me was how some of these young people were then roped into putting in all those hours working the phones at the call center. Except for the stories coming out of IBLP headquarters, I had never heard of a ministry doing such a thing. Then again, I wouldn’t call either one a legitimate ministry.
If Ron Luce has been getting his spiritual guidance from the likes of Robert Morris, what in the world has he been teaching kids at TM events, theologically speaking?
Darlene wrote:
Thank you for sharing wisdom about this. My own experiences of spiritual abuse took place in settings that differ from what you describe.
Yes, sometimes truths are found amid false teaching (often by insidious design); and, as a couple of folks have written, God might have worked through Teen Mania. It’s a shame, though, that humans create institutions where God is forced to work overtime.
I’m grateful that you are free of it and helping others.
NJ wrote:
NJ, working long hours is the hallmark of a cult. The group to which I belonged considered that work was a therapy. We had had an expression: You’re either working or wailing. Funny to think about it now. When we arrived at our training center, we were required to work either in a church business or get a job “in the world.” The goal was eventually for everyone to work in a church business. I worked in the nursery and also the carpet cleaning business. We worked 8 – 10 hour days. After that, if there wasn’t a Bible meeting, we were expected to go witnessing. And we were asked at meetings how many people we led to Jesus. Those who led no one to Jesus were said to be slacking off – “He who is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys.” I can relate to the video as far as the public shaming goes. It’s used to motivate members to do better, i.e. – follow the rules and meet the quotas. Public humiliation can be a good motivator; no one wants to be shamed in front of others. I’m so glad this cult folded. Just hope this Luce guy doesn’t have the chance to reinvent himself.
@ Darlene:
We were taught that the Hebrew word Avodah means both work and worship, so our work was essentially part of worshiping the Lord. And we did a lot of “worshiping.”
“… social media over-amplified the voices of the âfew dozen that complained.â (Ron Luce)
Not complainers, Mr. Luce … but watchmen sounding the alarm about you and your ministry.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Ha ha. Seems all the Christian cults think their so special. Of course when you get out, i.e.- escape, you realize they all have the same modus operandi. No originality whatsoever. By the way, BTDT, I think I encountered some folks from the cult to which you belonged back in the 70’s in NYC, when they were going by a different name.
*they’re”
@ Darlene:
That’s interesting! They started off in East 14th street in Manhattan under the name “Voice in the Wilderness.” When they moved to NJ I believe they went by the name “New Life Fellowship.”
I just finished watching the three part video. Wow. I loved how the counselors went through all of Robert Lifton’s criteria for thought reform. Teen Mania had every one.
Darlene wrote:
AMEN! If he does, we'll be sure to publicize it.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I first encountered them at the public showers on Bowry St. The women wore long skirts and dress to their ankles and would never make eye contact.
Lydia wrote:
They still are!
DT wrote:
Um, TWW didn’t tear down Teen Mania, that has already been accomplished. Please do some research and report back here why it happened, and NO it wasn’t because Luce thought it was merely time to move on.
triple sheesh
Darlene wrote:
Young, enthusiastic, and On Fire for The Cause…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Mg6Gfh9Co
Darlene wrote:
They use the word “mistakes” when speaking of one of their own or themselves. It’s “abuse” only when it’s someone else doing the deeds.
Looks like slavery in the U.S. didn’t end with the Civil War but was picked up by Jim Jones, Bill Gothard, Teen Mania, etc etc.
Cults: There sure were a bunch of them. Separate from family, friends, put into new peer group where isolation from others and under control and indoctrination (re education), lack of sleep and exhaustion, poor food. Almost like going off to college. Then the kinky guys in the church jump on the money bandwagon to control those groups and have access to the vulnerable all in the name of GAWD. Do you think this kind of thing is going to get worse?
“oh foolish Galatians who has bewitched you?”
Now I know why I couldn’t go to a whole week of Basic Youth Conflicts without getting sick and feeling like my brain was fried. Then when a group in our church was getting into signing covenants and the shepherding movement I took my daughters and left the church especially after I started seeing this crazy submission of women to their non Christian husbands etc etc etc. Women like me were getting called “Jezebel spirits” for not being blindly and hopelessly submissive. Thank God that He will never leave us nor forsake us because sometimes I think it’s all tooooooooooo much.
DT first checked in here over 15 hours ago to hammer TWW for “tearing down ministries at every opportunity”. DT then checked back in a couple hours later to assure Dee that while he hadn’t seen the video, it was because he was at work, just had to get home first.
Well, those shifts that DT works seem awfully long that we haven’t heard from him, must be an associate in big law or an MD in residency, because in a few minutes it’ll be thirteen hours since we last heard from him. Watch that video, there, DT? Still with us? Or crept away quietly into cyberspace?
To quote you, DT, perhaps “some mistakes were made” by you in trashing this blog before you’d seen the evidence that was presented. Allow me to quote you one more time regarding m opinion of your apparent duck and run: “SHEESH!”
They truly did do a great deal of damage and I dont think they even realize it.
I remember in my college days I traveled with a nefarious bunch that would call radio stations and give outlandish stories and a various assorted ways to suck people in. They would enjoy “pulling one over” on someone.
With that in mind I’m often a bit skeptical of posts that seem wide of the mark, as if someone is just trying to tweak the readers. DT may just be Delirium Tremens and part of the joke.
Christiane wrote:
Ron Luce is a very clever man. He built his cult compound out in the middle of nowhere – Garden Valley, TX. To go to the Honor’s Academy (HA) you had to be 18 or older. You were then a consenting adult. It was basically an institution where you voluntarily committed yourself. Ron Luce had two degrees in Psychology including a Masters Degree. He knew how to manipulate and brainwash. He seems to exhibit sadistic tendencies as he visibly derives joy from watching claustrophobic students be basically buried alive, forced to eat bowls of maggots, have jars of spiders dumped on them, etc. The students were also forced to work in sweat shop conditions.
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Students paid $8,000 a year for this because Acquire the Fire (ATF)created a high in them that they desperately wanted to replicate. It was an addiction of sorts. The students were also given college credit. They thought they would be learning about Jesus and getting closer to Him. Their main college internship duties were working in the call centers raising those millions of dollars in lengthy 10 hour shifts where you needed permission to use the bathroom. They were also the free labor and sales force for the ATF events.
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Parents thought this was wonderful because they saw their child on fire for the Lord at ATF. Students were not permitted to use phones privately and were limited to 15 min calls that were monitored. The kids could not really ask anyone for help. There was no “out”. The campus was on 437 acres in a very isolated area. Some were forced to live in rat infested trailers with no heat or A/C or running water.
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The Luces and his executives lived and continue to live luxury lifestyles. It is not a crime for people to voluntarily submit themselves to torture, hence, no prosecution. There is an entire industry dedicated to this. These kids were young, confused and thoroughly manipulated. The torture took place at the HA not the ATF events. This may be why DT is defending it. Many parents and youth pastors only knew TM through the 27 hour ATF events which were highly controlled environments that were rigged to show what Ron wanted shown.
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The universities like The King’s University owned by Gateway Church in Southlake, who were Ron Luce’s final partners long after the abuse was well known, are co-abusers who should be held equally responsible. Without these partnerships Luce could have never run his HA. Ron took his “tuition” up to $12,000 after he moved to Dallas. He is/was working on setting up an International HA.
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The kids were coerced but not forced. During the torture sessions they theoretically had the opportunity to “ring out”. Assuming they were willing to “abandon their faith” and “disappoint Jesus with their weakness”. Luce was smart enough to use contributions to hire The Church Law Group and David Middlebrook was there to advise what is legal and what is not. Many abused people feel even more helpless when they know that lawyers are propping up their abusers.
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If it helps, TM was successfully sued civilly by a number of abuse victims. This also helped to bring them down as major contributors weren’t keen on funding law suits. You can read more about the abuse here http://www.recoveringalumni.com/
TM reminds me of a para church organization I was a part of in the late 70’s. Heavy authoritarianism and lots of pressure and guilt. Lots of damaged people who only wanted to serve Christ when they joined. I had health issues by the time I left and was constantly urged to repent of whatever was causing my health problems. Fortunately, the director “heard from God” and disbanded the organization after 20 years so others were spared. Many of us found each other online and discussed the abuse years later, which helped in the healing process. Like TM lots of money was taken in and the head of the organization benefited.
Haitch wrote:
Well that’s just crazy talk you usurping evildoer, using rational thinking & evidence based evaluation methods to destroy the work of the Loooord…;)
What did you expect?
Just look at the names —
TEEN MANIA.
ACQUIRE THE FIRE.
If those don’t say “More Extreme Than Thou”, I don’t know what does.
Darlene wrote:
They wrote a book about their early years in NYC. My husband thought he remembered a mention of the showers on Bowery St. If there is I haven’t found it yet. It does say “. . . we arrived at their small apartment on East Fifth Street between Second Avenue and the Bowery.” Your description sounds accurate.
Law Prof wrote:
Or a Spokeshole for Teen Mania.
(Ever notice how these guys come out of the woodwork at every TWW expose?)
Or on Jihad against Blasphemers of his Personal LORD and Savior, Teen Mania.
I can tell it is Christmas time. From what I can tell nobody posted this item from the World Magazine article that Christianity Today references.
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/04/management_mania
As I believe Eagle posted in one of his blog posts: Follow the Money.
How on earth can a ministry justify this kind of an expense and really how can a preacher justify even taking this kind of money from a ministry? Wasn’t the gift of speaking that Jakes has a gift from God? If so, how can Jakes justify charging and taking this?
What is sadly ironic is that someone confirmed this was the group that took over the Last Days Ministries area. I remember reading a Teen Mania mail solicitation I believe for money. One of the points they said was that they realized that money they received from people was something like “blood money.” I think they used that term but something along those lines.
Their point of using a term like this was that they were acknowledging that most people were giving things up to be able to give and thus they should be good stewards and use wisely contributions given. Who knows if whether they ever really acted like they said they were to act but this action sure shows that later they didn’t practice this.
How
@ LT:
I appreciated this post – my church went to Acquire the Fire for years when I was in HS. I’m 27 and still have an ATF cd somewhere (okay it is actually in my car because I put all my high school/nostalgic ones there), the majority of my experiences with ATF were positive, though as I grew in Christ throughout high school (I became a Christian at 11) I began to be frustrated with it, and when the Lord finally opened my eyes to the centrality of JESUS’ work and not my efforts to be “on fire”, I couldn’t handle going anymore.
Acquire the Fire was all about emotionalism, about making you feel like you needed to be militantly excited for Jesus, about extremism as the only way to live the Christian life. I saw a large number of friends make big commitments to Jesus there, and most of them didn’t last. The gospel WAS preached, but it was followed up by a whole lot of works you needed to do.
A friend of mine in HS seriously transformed as a result of ATF. His family was a big missions family and while his sister went to The King’s University (see above, associated with Gateway church), he did the Honor Academy.
His family was poor. Really, really, really poor. His mom at times would make these delicious carrot cakes and sell them just so the family could make it by. When things were good she’d sell them so the family could go on mission trips. They sacrificially gave and they would do other programs our church ran to give to missions, they were dedicated.
Well everything seemed fine right after he got back from the HA, I was so thankful that he was following Jesus, he got engaged to a girl who had a kid and was a great surrogate dad, but less than a year later he was not following Jesus at all and was pretty much living a life of sin. He was antagonistic and angry toward Christians, which I think he remains to this day. It always saddened and confused me, and I still pray for his restoration and joy.
After hearing the past few years about Teen Mania, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not surprising he walked away. If someone poor like that experienced abuse but saw the leaders living in luxury, saw this money that he scrimped and saved for being wasted, then no wonder he walked away. I hope he’s rejoicing today that this reign of terror can’t continue.
“Woe to him who causes little ones to sin.”
Lydia wrote:
The same can be said of New Calvinist leaders focused primarily on young adults. On one hand, it’s good to see young folks returning to church … but, on the other hand, I’m burdened to the point of mad that they are being indoctrinated in aberrant theology.
I also took a year between high school and college to work for and study at a ministry. It was different from Teen Mania in many ways, far more humane, more scholarly, better food and accommodations, no call center. There weren’t the cultic red flags. But I still wonder if it was a good idea.
Being immersed in that sort of subculture is risky. I found that my worth depended on how well I lived up to other’s expectations, especially the whole quiet time / Bible Study thing. It took time to get used to normal life again, although the State University that I attended after this school helped a lot. That was a shock, but was a very healthy experience that I never regret.
I have a friend, more of an acquaintance, who was connected with TM. I’ll have to ask him about it sometime.
Darlene wrote:
The conclusion I have come to, after many years of both watching and being involved with cold-selling re-branded as “witnessing”, is that almost nobody is led to Jesus that way. Peter observed to Simon the Sorcerer: May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! But at the same time, it seems there have always been ministries that thought you can sell the gift of God like a product.
Recruit an army of army of unpaid slaves/sales staff. Then pressure them to accost as many total strangers as they can and, without any relationship or follow-up, order that same sales staff to “lead them to Jesus”. Make the sales staff suffer if they don’t meet targets. Then claim your ministry has “led many to Jesus”.
What you don’t find in these settings is the leaders out there in the field setting an example in word and deed. You don’t find them doing the hard work of “soul-winning” and discovering for themselves how hard it is, nor engaged in follow-up of new “believers” such that they are personally responsible for every church meeting these new “believers” miss. You don’t find them out there discovering just how ineffective is “sales evangelism”. You might find them “working”, but only at the glamorous jobs like public speaking and vision-casting. It’s easy to work “hard” at something of your own choosing, that you find immediately rewarding; and it’s easier still if you can push all the attendant dirty and thankless tasks off onto the faceless and unpaid support-staff.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I call it merchandising the gospel … which is not the gospel, at all.
@ LT:
Thank you for that info. I had no idea.
@ LT:
Yes, thanks for your detailed comment. My heart breaks for those who got sucked into this abusive religious system. That verse about a millstone comes to mind…
@ Sarah:
Thanks so much for sharing your story Sarah. It’s exactly how TM operated. I am planning on sending some info about ATF that I hope the Deebs might post. It’s too lengthy for a comment.
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As many may not speak or write of TM again, it behooves us to take a final look at the underlying seduction techniques that sucked millions of teen into this program. There already is a slicker, more covert replacement program for TM formed by one of TM’s top executives and most popular speaker. As responsible adults we need to understand what fueled this movement. The current replacement program has significant financial backing in place and they will be more clever at disguising problems. They will continue to drive more kids away from Christ in the long run. Exposure is the only way to slow some of this down. That’s what finally put a stop to Teen Mania.
BC wrote:
What is Basic Youth Concepts? I’ve never heard of this one. It just seems like when you think you’ve heard of all the cults, another one creeps out of the woodwork.
brian wrote:
Yes, they did do a GREAT deal of damage, but didn’t realize it? Naw, I don’t think so. I think these manipulators knew EXACTLY what they were doing. And they liked all the money they were raking in while they were doing it.
A reoccurring theme on this blog, and other similar blogs, is the aggressiveness/arrogance/self-righteousness/etc. of leaders/organizations that are called out for behavior issues… I think that tells you more than anything else.. that, and the attempt to hide/cover-up/minimize the abuse/mis-behavior…
I for one, like Paul’s comment… I am chief among sinners.. and I would be so embarrassed if I was called out for some the things discussed on this blog… But, most of these clowns seem to go the opposite way… my favorite is attacking the blog saying it hurts the cause of Christ… really??? who did the abusing??
Niteowl wrote:
When I first left the Christian cult, it was difficult to find other Christians who understood brainwashing and mind control within a *Christian* context. They would ask me, “Didn’t you read the Bible?” as if somehow reading the Bible is the answer for not being fooled by a cult. Read the Bible? We were always reading the Bible, and memorizing Scripture. The cult leader used the Bible to deliver his twisted teachings. Many Christians didn’t understand the process of spiritual abuse back then; many don’t understand it now either. So it was a comfort to meet with ex-members who had come to their senses and understood how we had been manipulated in the name of God. Back in the 80’s and 90’s ex-members had to seek each other out by letters and phone calls. Now there are a few sites where ex-members can go to talk and share their stories of abuse – thanks to the internet!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ha ha, right you are, HUG! Those names reek of self-righteousness.
âBuild an army of young people who will change the worldâŚâ (Message Ron Luce Claims to Have Heard From God)
Christendom is littered with youth movements intent on “changing the world” (while their leaders milk it for all its worth). Same gimmick in different packages keep popping up; some last longer than others, but in the end they fizzle out because they were not meant to be – even if their leaders claim they have completed their assignment from God. The current one is the New Calvinist movement. General Al Mohler spurs his army of young, restless and reformed forward with charges like:
âWhere else are they going to go? If youâre a theological minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if youâre committed to the gospel and want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel built and structured committed churches, your theology is just going to end up basically being Reformed, basically something like this new Calvinism, or youâre going to have to invent some label for what is basically going to be the same thing, there just are not options out there, and thatâs something that frustrates some people, but when Iâm asked about the New Calvinism â where else are they going to go, who else is going to answer the questions, where else are they going to find the resources they are going to need and where else are they going to connect. This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing that Paul said, they want to stand with the apostles, they want to stand with old dead people, and they know that they are going to have to, if they are going to preach and teach the truth.â (Dr. Albert Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)
Whew! And the beat goes on …
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, those are the two new “in” words. “Authentic Community”. All the big megas are hocking this concept. In a social media world, young people long for a sense of real community and the megas are right there to exploit that. “Being Intentional” is the other new term. We are “being intentional” in our commitment to “nurture authentic community”.
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Funny story on all that intentional, authentic community…. Robert Morris fired a godly preacher to promote his son-in-law, Ethan Fisher, to the head of the Gateway College/Young Adult Group called VII. Ethan has made a series of recent ads telling everyone how much he loves them and how they really need to seek authentic community every week at VII. GW has paid thousands to coach Ethan in professional speaking so he consciously uses these mechanical hand gestures to emphasize every word to show you he’s super sincere about his intentional, authentic community.
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The problem is that Ethan and Robert’s daughter Elaine aren’t really into “authentic community” themselves. Elaine stopped going to VII ages ago. Now Ethan is following suit. From the beginning of the school year, Ethan has only given THREE sermons all year. Three sermons from 9-1-15 thru 1-10-16! (we’ll have to see if he bothers to show up on 1-11-16 but no services until then).
Ethan did show up for the end of year VII Christmas party a week ago but did not preach. The service was worship music followed by Ethan taking the mic to tell VII members they need to download the My Gateway app to stay in touch with their authentic, intentional community. I believe he also attended the one night Robert Morris spoke. Other than that, Ethan – whose only job is to show up on Tuesday nights and speak, fellowship and pray with students – has had Assoc Ps Brandon Shows introduce the never ending list of guest speakers and also lead the closing prayer. Ethan cannot even be seen sitting in the audience with his “flock”.
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How can you have any community when your shepherd is nowhere to be found? I guess he learned it from Big Daddy Robert. Yep – Robert Morris has not showed up to Gateway since 11-21-15. And he just finished his ten week sabbatical this summer. Robert and his Pastrix wife Debbie don’t show up and sit with the other pastors to attend their own church either when his paid guest speakers take the stage to promote their latest books. So, Robert Morris – the senior pastor of the third largest church in America – hasn’t been seen in his own church since 11-21-15. He blew off his own flock for both Thanksgiving and Christmas!
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He was thoughtful enough to send in a video of himself sitting around a fake flickering light bulb campfire having his grandkids tell badly prescripted jokes for the Christmas Candlelight service. And he keeps emailing short videos reminding people to send in their 2015 capital fund commitments in and make a generous gift to TKUG before year end so we know he is still alive and sporting wrap around sunglass sunburns in those videos. So someone is enjoying the sunshine somewhere. But the mighty Morris is nowhere to be found in DFW.
LT wrote:
Good point. My ex roommate who is a TGC blogger and rubs shoulders with many “famous” Christians always writes about “authentic, intentional community” yet she only shows that to the people she likes or chooses. I lived with her in Texas and never experienced that from her. She had parties at the house and invited all the who’s who people of The Village Church, and I didn’t know about it until people showed up. She now lives down the street from me in Denver and works at a church in our neighborhood as a “community formation leader”. She is great at writing about it, but she sucks at looking outside of herself and noticing the people around her who actually need community. One look at her blog and it’s obvious she loves to write about HERSELF.
Christina Dowers wrote:
Probably more common than acknowledged; sometimes the mission, despite the appearance, is actually – subtext – self.
In another post, a contributor wisely commented that the sociopath is kind and loving in every sense until they are done using the object of their love – and then they walk away and find another object they can use.
LT wrote:
New Calvinist churches in my area refer to their small group meetings as “authentic community.” They corral their members into weekly meetings called “LifeGroups.” These are led by carefully-chosen men (only male leaders, please) who have been anointed by the “lead” pastor – he hand-picks only those who have demonstrated complete loyalty to the messenger and message (reformed theology, of course). LifeGroups are intended to be the place where you get ministered to, rather than having the lead pastor come off his throne and waste his precious time on you. They are, of course, “gospel-centered” (another two word phrase the young reformers like to use). Their language is littered with gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that, without ever actually dealing with ‘the’ Gospel. They study literature written by the who’s-who in New Calvinism (Piper, Keller, etc.). Having been exposed to some of these, it’s clear that they have some form of community, but I wouldn’t call it “authentic” when compared to the New Testament church. LifeGroup members who get wise to the scheme and opt to leave are forever shunned by their not so authentic community.
Max wrote:
Here’s a free clue: If you have to prattle on about how ‘authentic’ your ‘community’ is, it is neither.
Max wrote:
Yup — that’s been my experience with Acts 29 churches. I finally got a clue this year after reading TWW and realized my issues at the past three churches I have been a part of haven’t been isolated — they’re all A29 churches with Neo Cal views. I keep in contact with a total of one person from those churches, and it’s only because she actually practices what she says she believes.
JYJames wrote:
Yeah, when you’re constantly focused on how much of a dirty sinner you are, I guess it makes sense that many reformed peeps would be sociopaths.
Darlene wrote:
‘Teen Mania’ sounds like the name of a very dodgy porn site…
ION: Dee have you treckorated your tree yet? I saw this term the other day & immediately thought of you.
Christina Dowers wrote:
It has been my experience that those most prone to advocate for total depravity seem to be the ones most committed to proving up the point.
By the way, it appears to me as if either DT works 24 hour shifts, is a troll, or is gutless, because he seems to have disappeared completely.
Christina Dowers wrote:
That’s also the case with many SBC church plants. Several of these hold dual affiliation with SBC & A29. Others which won’t officially mention alignment with A29 have been greatly influenced by the “authentic community” patterned by A29 in belief and practice.
Beakerj wrote:
Good effort, but not quite there, Beaks. Watch and learn…
IFON:
Knocked off a reachy, dyno-intensitve 6b+ and a technical, balancey 6b (as well as a string of 6a+’s) at the climbing wall tonight. Lesley managed not only her first 6a+, but swiftly followed it up with her second. Not a bad session overall.
IHTIH
Law Prof wrote:
Whoa, what a line! Print this one out folks and stick it on your refrigerator!
“Total Depravity”, the T in reformed theology’s TULIP of doctrines, also implies total inability. Without a will to resist depravity, it comes. Thus, anything is possible in New Calvinist churches.
Max wrote:
Good point. Now that I think about it, I had a shunning issue due to my refusal to conform at an SBC church in DFW that wasn’t specifically aligned with A29.
Darlene wrote:
This is the program tha Bill Gothard use to teach before he was exposed and resigned from the group he started.
Christina Dowers wrote:
That’s actually quite sad, but it still made me laugh because of how true it is. The people who – as part of their job – are required to promote this intentional authentic community, are typically the people that are most inclined to disdain and ignore the outsiders seeking to fit in. That’s because the megas pick the trendiest hipsters thinking that “hey, everyone will want to hang out with hipsters Chad and Megan! Look at how fashionable and chic they are. Let’s hire them then everyone will want to join their community groups”
Unfortunately, the Chads and the Megans still want to only sit at the cool kids’ table in high school for the next 50 years, so they Tweet and Instagram about the “concept” of “authentic community” but don’t even THINK about trying to actually hang with them, loser. An anthropologist would have a field day studying megas.
Christina Dowers wrote:
Christina, shunning is more akin to high school behavior than Christian character. These young reformed folks can get downright childish in their treatment of others. If that is authentic community, I prefer regular churches where they love you and encourage you in your faith, rather than snubbing those who question what is being dished out to them.
Beakerj wrote:
I know, a fools errand that was… đ
(there’s enough first-hand experience relayed on this page for Steve Martin to make Leap of Faith 2.)
Darlene wrote:
b
Bill Gothard and his family were the big money makers and slave drivers from that. But let’s not forget Maranatha and then all the crazy religions from India …….
LT wrote:
It isn’t just megas. This was true of the church of 200-300 I had attended. Twenty years ago I observed the behavior and attempted to rectify it and unfortunately I got side tracked, long story.
They still look to the charismatic “Chad and Megan” to lead things, everybody crowds around them, and surprise, it ends up being about “Chad and Megan”.
Deb wrote:
Actually I hadn’t read the article till just now. There was this quote:
“David Hasz told me. He said many concerned parties used the Matthew 18 approach of problem-solving with Luce”
This makes me want to open a window and scream. Enough with Matthew 18, it is not a structured handbook for dealing with inept or corrupt leaders. Matthew 18 may be one of the most misemployed biblical passages of late. Luckily this wasn’t around in David’s time or Nathan would have been chastised for not using Matthew 18 when he exposed David’s murder of Uriah.
If you come across a Christian organization with a hierarchical structure that tells you they use Matthew 18 to resolve conflicts with superiors, walk away, briskly.
Ken wrote:
I am constantly amazed by the brazen confidence people have when they put words into God’s mouth for him.
Steve240 wrote:
Are you referring to the god of this world? If so, the acquiring of gain IS his system of worship.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And where else, but in religion, can you do that?
The shockingly low standard of stewardship is extremely disturbing. Or it should be. If you received $300 million in the past 15 years, that averages out to $20 million a year, or an average of over $54,000 a day – each and every day for 15 years.
$54,000 is more than the average annual household income of the typical American family. And $20 Million is a lot of money. I contribute to a well-regarded charity in Africa that fights river blindness and other neglected tropical diseases. It does some amazing, very effective work, Yet in only one year of its existence has it raised over $20 million. If it had Teen Mania’s income stream, millions of Africans would be living healthier lives and some diseases would’ve been eradicated.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Obviously it was deliberate so that I don’t outshine your masculine splendour at any point.
@ Beakerj:
Ah, but my masculine splendour is only fulfilled when I enable others to outshine me.
All that was missing from your news item was the end salutation; it’s important, after all, to express the hope that your readers have found your input helpful (which, in your case, they invariably will).
IHTIH
Darlene wrote:
Don’t you know that Five Fast Praise-the-LOOOORDs will fix anything?
That no matter what the problem, Bible Study (i.e. “Spending time with The LOOOOORD!”) will take care of it?
And if it doesn’t, You Must Have Some Secret Sin, You LUKEWARM APOSTATE!!!!!
Been there, been on the receiving end, still got the scars and the T-shirt.
Brian C. wrote:
But it’s still not enough — TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!
Moochers always have Champagne-and-Caviar tastes.
A Lifestyle of the Rich and Famous takes a lot of Benjamins to maintain, and you can always Live Higher.
Max wrote:
Max, there are a lot of alleged adults out there who have NEVER left High School.
Like the Author Self-Insert in Twilight, their Paradise is to be (or stay) the Alpha Male/Alpha Female of a Never-ending High School.
And there are a LOT of sexually-active chronological adults out there who are still squalling in their diapers.
LT wrote:
As I said about Stephanie Myers when Twilight hit the big time:
“If she wants to go back and sit at the cool kids’ table in High School forever, her high school career must have been very different from mine.”
I was in high school from 1969-1973. Omega Male the entire time. High School brought me closer to suicide than any other time in my life. And 40 years later, the damage is still there. 40 years after getting out, Rah Rah for High School still makes my blood run cold.
P.S. When I was flushing Benjamins down the crapper with Christian Dating Services, I noticed something about their sponsored social events: DANCES. DANCES. DANCES. Just like High School. (And with the same results and side effects.) What Gives?
BC wrote:
And don’t forget L. Ron Hubbard and his successor Miscavige. They’re two of the worst offenders in the U.S.
Life Groups are also a fixture in ARC churches. Church of the Highlands (ARC HQ) has a rather large booklet of the different Life Groups, which are organized around shared interests. Seems like there was a computer graphics group.
https://www.churchofthehighlands.com/groups
Would you join a TWW oriented Life Group? That would be interesting.
@ Darlene:
Everything in your account reminds me of descriptions of Scientology’s “Sea Org” — its die-hard members who function as a slave labour force.
How can the tactics of a criminal cult be so commonly used by those who call themselves “Christian”? đ
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Those not convinced of that need only spend a little while on social media with other “adults” … mostly high school level hallway chatter. Speaking of social media, the New Calvinist movement has mastered it to recruit its army of young, restless and reformed “adults.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You think Luce gave DT a cookie for his valiant efforts against us heathens? đ
“Ron Luce quoted well-known British missionary Hudson Taylor, who once said: “There are three stages of every great work of God. First itâs impossible, then itâs difficult, then itâs done.â”
Ron Luce shouldn’t compare himself with Hudson Taylor! Sounds like his ministry was “done” several years ago, but he wouldn’t quit.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Or worse yet, it can mean that you don’t really ‘know the Lord’, and never really got ‘saved’.
Muff Potter wrote:
Here’s the kicker, Muff:
Those phrases in my comment (“Five Fast Praise-the-LOOOORDs” and “Spend X time Alone with The LOOOOOORD every morning”) are for real. From that second not-a-cult from my college days (the local one who was always trying to out-Nav the Navigators).
The guy who used the latter even pronounced “Lord” in ALL CAPS with four or five Os. I so wanted to see him get into a situation Five Fast Praise-the-LOOOORDs couldn’t get him out of, so I could stand there and repeat his “Wisdom” right back to him.
Never trust anyone who pronounces “Lord” with two O’s or “Jesus” with two E’s.’
Double so if they speak in ALL CAPS.
Oh, Muff.
I vaguely remember something about you being in Southern California.
Are you?
And are you also the one who is part Menominee?
(I’ve been in a constant “brain fog” the past couple years…)
Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
A pat-pat-pat on the head and a Hero medal with his dog biscuit?
Max wrote:
So has ISIS.
Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
And Got Hard even had his own Commodore Messengers Organization in all those young IBLP interns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore%27s_Messenger_Organization
(Though Elron’s CMO had a juicier dress code — hot pants and boobage-jiggle tank tops or bikini tops instead of long denim jumpers and long soft just-curly-enough hair. And Elron liked them younger than Got Hard.)
Darlene wrote:
The abusive church I was part of even had a CLASS on cults and what they were. The implication being, “Since we’re talking about what cults are, we’re not one!”
Tina wrote:
I have been noticing this lately, and as was mentioned above between other commentators (about how the church or blogging community will hire or talk about things such as community, etc., and use the correct words, but will actually be really bad at it themselves.
It does seem like gaslighting or a manipulation tactic, at the least, it’s a lack of self-awareness, if not done purposefully or at a conscious level. I think this is why these groups and people can be so confusing! I recently read a blog post from a prominent Christian leader who was encouraging their followers that they do not need big numbers, and God works in the small things, and we should not be focused on numbers – and it sounded so humble and true and insightful out of context. Meanwhile, their whole ministry and everything else they do and how they position and posture themselves reeks of the opposite. It’s very confusing when you realize the play that is going on with people’s minds.
I have seen a group or two inform on cults as well, while they themselves operating under similar tactics. Popular bloggers and charismatic leaders will talk about subjects and sound humble on topics – almost like a manipulative move- to keep people off the scent of what they are really about. It’s like they do hurtful things, and instead of changing the behavior, they adopt certain dialogue or know what to say to get people off the scent, and that’s kind of what keeps people in. Anything to avoid dealing with true self-reflection and behavior change. The trickiest may be someone who talks well about self-reflection and humility while never actually engaging in it themselves. This may sum up most of the problems we are seeing in the church!
Rose wrote:
Doublethink, comrade, doublethink:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink
And the TV Trope “People’s Republic of Tyranny”, where the more adjectives there are about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.
Rose wrote:
Wormwood informs on Screwtape,
Screwtape informs on Slubgob,
Slubgob informs on Screwtape,
Screwtape informs on Wormwood…
What do you mean “almost”?
And then there’s HUMBLE(TM) (chuckle chuckle).
Both are signs of a successful Sociopath. Successful Sociopaths, successful pedophiles, successful abusers, successful serial killers are ALL masters of camouflage and misdirection. If they weren’t, they would have been exposed long ago. We only hear about the ones dumb enough to slip up and get caught. The others? “But he was such a NICE boy — so polite, so sincere.”
“For Satan himself can transform Himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
— some Rabbi from Nazareth
Rose wrote:
My experience was one of the narcissist pastor’s first message was on humility. So if he preaches on humility and tell a self-depreciating story then people attribute humility to him. It worked.
Bill M wrote:
The People’s Democratic Republic of Korea (North, not South, Korea) is neither the people’s, nor democratic, nor a republic.
Further, when a pastor says “It’s all about Jesus” (and Driscoll is by no means the only one), one can rest assured that it is almost certainly not at all about Jesus.
The NPD pastor was merely grooming victims.
@ Bill M:
The mega biggies like Warren and Hybels started off doing this sort of thing a few decades ago.
Bill M wrote:
Like I said, the sign of a successful Sociopath.
And Master Manipulator — “Dance, Monkeys! Dance!”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I believe that is one of the verses these guys seem to have missed in their Bibles. Nothing like selective quotation…
Law Prof wrote:
An interesting thing about the New Calvinist movement of gospel-centered Christ-followers is that they don’t talk much about Jesus, nor the Gospel! They seem to be more fond of Paul, than Christ … focusing more on the epistles, than the words in red.
Rose wrote:
Exactly! Whenever you hear some heavy preaching/teaching about a particular sin, watch and listen carefully for the same thing to be exposed in the messenger’s ministry. Not always the case, certainly, but enough of this sort of behavior by “Christian” celebrities to raise a red flag.
Max wrote:
Like recovering alcoholic Billy Sunday preaching Christless sermons against Demon Rum 100 years ago.
Like Ted Haggard trying to out-Fred Phelps Fred Phelps before he got caught with a rentboy.
Like Rush Limbaugh, Number One Fanboy of the War On Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction.
Like Oberstgruppenfuehrer Reinhard Heydrich (#2 man in the SS, Nazi Germany’s chief Enforcer, and real-life pulp villain) planning and ordering the Holocaust to hide the fact he was rumored to be part Jew.
Like the old saw about becoming a psychiatrist because you’re crazy yourself and are trying to self-treat in secret, they’re trying to fix themselves without anyone ever finding out. Especially if they’re Christianese CELEBRITIES who have thrown others under the bus and cannot afford ANY flaw in their Perfect Gospelly Public Image.
“You can tell when a preacher’s in trouble when he stops preaching on what he’s for and preaches only on what he’s against.”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes on both accounts.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Pastor Ed, under whom as an elder I very unfortunately put myself and family, produced a winning smile for public consumption, but in private was a sadistic NPD, sociopath, whatever (in my opinion he was well-described in the Bible as one who’s conscience was simply seared), had a university degree in psychology and kept a counseling practice on the side. I genuinely believe he was drawn to the study of the human mind to try and make sense of the massive flaw he must have sensed in himself; I’ve read that this is common among those with severe personality disorders.
@ Law Prof:
Many years ago, I was contracted to facilitate strategic planning with a states Psychological Association. I started with an environmental scan that produced some of the most vile and cruel attacks I have ever witnessed between “professionals”. I was stunned.
Lydia wrote:
Doesn’t surprise me.
Teen Mania looks very much like John MacArthur's Camp Regen. Debasing and degrading games with dead animal parts and kids slogging in mud…
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/john-macarthurs-druid-festival-and-mind-control-7093129?&trail=50
Here is a Christian youth camp with similar games organized by another of John MacArthur's disciples.
http://johnmacarthur.forumchitchat.com/post/the-pagan-games-of-macarthur-trained-pastor-ken-ramey-7783663?pid=1290111914