"I have a love interest in every one of my films – a gun."- Arnold Schwarzenegger link
screen shot Pastors learning to be authentic™men.
As you know, the two of us hold MBAs. We are often critiqued for our seemingly dogged look at how evangelical organizations do business. We are also big on "following the money" and take a particular interest in how churches and parachurch organization spend their money on salaries and infrastructure.
Approximately two years ago we received an email from a professor at a major university who told us that he found our blog informative about the trends of evangelicalism in the last 3 decades. He used our blog to track down further information for a book he was writing on the recent history of the evangelical faith.
So, besides exposing abusive church practices and warning people about the legalities of church contracts (cleverly called church covenants), we like to explore structure. For example, the Dino Rizzo debacle caused us to look carefully at the ARC which led to some fascinating posts on their beliefs surrounding demonism, etc. Of course, these associations are not pleased when we look more closely since they no longer fly under the radar.
We contend that there is a playbook which members of these tightly ties groups use to answer questions. In some respects, the statement of FBC Brentwood regarding their lawsuit sounded like other such statements that we have heard over the last few years. We looked at their church due to the allegations of alleged mismanagement of the molestation of a 3 year old child at this church.
However, the more we looked, the more we began to realize that there are alliances between this church and other organizations. Thanks to a reader, we discovered that Bill Wellons Sr., the father of the pastor of FBC, Bill Wellons, had spoken at Redeemer Church of Dubai, the church of John Folmar which was a plant from UCCD. and an integral part of 9 Marks.This was the former church home of our poorly treated, official TWW hero, Todd Wilhelm.
This means there are ties to 9 Marks. Who cares? Well, the Deebs do. 9 Marks is a tightly run ship and one can be sure that those who are invited to speak are onboard with the theology of the organization. For example, we call UCCD and Capital Hill Baptist Church *the Hotel California of church discipline* since once you sign their contract,, you cannot leave without following their restrictive guidelines. If you do not follow them to the letter, you are placed in church discipline, which they *winsomely* call *the care list.* (banging head on table.) There is no place for rights of conscience with this crowd.
Why should we care about Bill Wellons Sr. and Fellowship Associates?
Because there are close ties between daddy and son. We discovered that Fellowship Bible Church (of which Bill Wellons JR is pastor) is participating in a larger organization known as Fellowship Associates. What is that?
From their website:
Fellowship Associates exists to call men into Authentic Manhood and to train leaders to plant churches.
1. Who is on their team?
For now we will focus on Bill Wellons Sr.
Bill Wellons is a church planter, consultant and principal of Fellowship Associates. In 1977, Bill and his wife, Carolyn, helped found Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, where he served as a Teaching Pastor and Chairman of the Elder Board for thirty-two years. Bill transitioned to Fellowship Associates in 2005 to oversee the Leadership Residency for church planters, consult with church leaders, and train new Residency Directors.
2. What do they do?
It is one more Gospel™ based church planting group. (How many of these are there?!!)
The Residency Program is decentralized and gathers twice monthly for three days over seven months…September through March. The Residency focuses on Leadership issues such as Self-Awareness, Gospel-centered Ecclesiology, Leadership Development, “best practices” and “how to’s” of local church leadership. Along with the Fellowship Associates partners and staff, the Fellowship Network of 70 + church leaders and other strategic partners share wisdom and invest in our Residents.
Our cohort model allows for mentor and peer learning. We have over fifteen years of experience hosting a Residency Programs and have trained over 70 men. Our partner churches multiply our ability to pass along lessons learned and best practices.
Our thinking toward every Resident we train includes:
- How can we equip and prepare this Resident to plant a church that plants churches?
- How can we build into this Resident so that he catalyzes church planting in whatever city and region he plants?
- How can we prepare this Resident to create a residency in the future and train other church planters?
What excites us? The gospel multiplied through healthy leaders that plant healthy churches that build healthy leaders to plant other healthy churches.
3. Who are the partners?
Here are just a few:
- Acts 29
- The Village Church
- Crossway
- The Austin Stone
4. Who are their alumni?
Here are just a couple. The list is quite long.
- Dave Furman Redeemer Church of Dubai Dubai, UAE (9Marks)
- Bill Wellons, JR. Fellowship Bible Church Brentwood, TN
5. They quote Acts 29 for qualifications for leaders.
This is intentional as you will see.
Acts 29 also listed some helpful characteristics of a church planter in his list of Entrepreneurial Aptitude Micro-Skills:
- Has demonstrated past successes in starting new ventures.
- Is an innovative and strategic visionary.
- Is highly energetic and enthused about starting a new work.
- Shows ability to enlist others in new ventures.
- Evidences being a self-starter.
- Has a willingness to work intensely for an extended period of time.
What is Authentic Manhood?
1. This is a program pushed by Fellowship Associates and linked to on their website.
Authentic Manhood is all about setting men up to live lives of truth, passion and purpose. Our resources offer clear and practical Biblical insights on God’s design for manhood that are both refreshing and inspiring. We point men to a gospel-centered vision of life that sets them up to enjoy God’s grace as they pursue the promises of His Word.
2. Who is involved in the leadership and support of this group?
No surprises here.
MATT CHANDLER
Matt Chandler is lead pastor of Teaching at The Village Church, a multi-campus congregation in the Dallas/Fort Worth region of Texas, and president of Acts 29, a worldwide church-planting organization with more than four hundred churches in the U.S. and networks of churches in multiple countries.
JOHN BRYSON
Along with being a Teaching Pastor and Elder at Fellowship Memphis, John serves on the board of Acts29 and as a church planting coach with Fellowship Associates.
BRYAN CARTER
Bryan Carter taught the original Men’s Fraternity curriculum to a group of more than 800 men over a three-year period at Concord Church.
You might appreciate the ties that Chandler enunciates on TVC website.
Partner
We team up with organizations like Acts 29, where Matt currently sits as president, and Fellowship Associates to help plant churches that plant churches.
What is the Men's Fraternity?
This has close ties to Fellowship Associates which pushes this material through Authentic Manhood.,
Men's Fraternity Classic is the original curriculum authored by Dr. Robert Lewis that helped launch the Authentic Manhood movement. Men's Fraternity Classic is a series of three one-year-long studies, beginning with The Quest for Authentic Manhood (24 weeks), followed by Authentic Manhood: Winning at Work and Home (16 weeks), and concluding with The Great Adventure series (20 weeks). More than just a rally or a Bible study, Men's Fraternity provides men with an encouraging process that teaches them how to live lives of authentic manhood as modeled by Jesus Christ and directed by the Word of God.
Men's Fraternity was designed to help men come together and strengthen each other through weekly sessions that combine biblical teaching and small group interaction.
These time-tested resources have been used all over the world to equip men to make their pursuit of noble manhood a lifelong priority. Church leaders and lay members are using the series to energize the men of their church and to connect with men in the community. Many men also use the series in their own personal pursuit of authentic manhood.
There is a tie to Bill Wellons SR even in the endorsements. The current leadership of FBC Little Rock, the church Wellons founded, endorse this, naturally.
Paul Chapman, a member of Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, shares about his "faith journey" and how Men's Fraternity played an integral part in bringing him to Christ.
What is the Leadership Collective?
These groups not only benefit the pastor, but also his congregation: Pastors in formal peer groups lead congregations that serve the church, reach out to others, and grow at higher rates than churches with pastors that don’t participate in peer groups.
The Leaders Collective facilitates lead pastor cohorts that spend two years considering the characteristics necessary to promote healthy, sustainable ministry. These cohorts of six pastors—all in similar places of life and ministry— will meet together once a quarter for two years to consider these characteristics together through unique experiences, time with recognized experts in the field, and time building into one another the encouragement we all need to sustain fruitful ministry.
Here are a few that you should find interesting.
- Bill Wellons Sr
- Jamie Munson: Formerly of Mars Hill Church
- Justin Holcomb: Formerly of Mars Hill Church
- Elliott Grudem: Wayne's son
Look carefully at the resume for Munson and Holcomb. Do you see anything about Mars Hill mentioned? Shhhh…
Who is endorsing this collective?
1. A Sovereign Grace Ministry pastor:
Ian McConnell Pastor for Preaching & Vision, Grace City Church / Director of Church Planting & Mission, Sovereign Grace Churches
I’m thankful for the way the Leaders Collective allows me to learn from men in other networks doing the same gospel mission.
2. Acts 29
Brian Lowe Lead Pastor, Exodus Church / Acts 29 Network Director for the U.S. Southeast
It is good to have people speak honestly into your life about areas where you need to grow. I find few people are willing to speak the truth to me. Having men around me who will is invaluable. It is [also] good to be able to laugh. My cohort was not together long before laughing began…and that is good medicine.
Finally, we have already discussed the ties to The Gospel Coalition on the part of Bill Wellons JR.
Even CBMW is getting in on the act
Whoops-almost forgot to tell you that the Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood really likes some of the material pushed by Authentic Manhood and even links to their site.
So, let's go ahead and review the links:
- TGC
- Acts 29 (DD, AD -during Driscoll and after Driscoll)
- 9Marks
- The Village Church and Matt Chandler
- Jamie Munson and Justin Holcomb, formerly of Mars Hill
- Various Fellowship Bible Churches
- Fellowship Associates
- Authentic Manhood
- Men's Fraternity
- Leadership Collective
- Crossway (the publisher of the ESV)
- The Austin Stone
- SGM
- CBMW
- and a whole boatload of folks in the Raleigh area which we will get to on another post.
Talk about sharing DNA.!Deb suggested a name for these groups, C4, which stands for Cookie Cutter Calvinista Coalition. It has play.
A question
It appears these some of these groups are supported by the churches which pay to send their pastors to "one more conference." So, do the financiers of these programs, meaning the church tithers, ever question what their money is being used for? And what about the money…who is making what? And why do we need so many groups all doing the same sort of thing?
The picture at the top of the page of men learning to be men
So, a weird thing happened this week. Deb was supposed o do this post on Monday but the Fellowship Associates went down for quite a while. Deb and I took screenshots of this picture of the boys running around with guns. It used to be up on the Leadership Collective (doesn't that name remind you of the old Soviet Union?) Apparently this a picture of a scene from one their "pastors" intensive learning experiences. The Leadership Collective is obviously updating their website as you will see if you click on the link under the picture.
So, enjoy the advanced weapons training, boys. You must really need to keep those church members in line. BTW, your adorable blog queens have concealed weapons permits issues by the state of NC. Does that make us authentic women?
First?
2nd
Scared hipsters playing at being real (TM) men (TM)! Ridiculous!
Want to be a real man? Easy:
– Stand up for the weak and oppressed, even if it costs you
– Don’t insist on your privilege, even if you have to give up things you’ve grown to enjoy
– Serve others
– Be strong enough to accept criticism (even those criticisms that are not completely justified) equanimously
I’m sure the list is not complete
Here’s my conclusion on biblical manhood(TM): all the guns and cage fights do not compensate for how decisively unmanly it is to be expected to cower in fear for a doofus like Steve Hardin from TVC if he accuses you of being “self-reliant”.
” It used to be up on the Leadership Collective (doesn’t that name remind you of the old Soviet Union?)”
You said that just for HUG, didn’t you?
Gus wrote:
This always makes me giggle. For all their claims of being counter-cultural and different, these YRR guys sure do dress and act like they want to be “cool” in mainstream society…
Corbin wrote:
They look scared to me….
@ Gus:
You’ve the speed of a African wild dog. ” These dogs much faster than a typical canine, and can reachspeeds of 44 mph when chasing down their prey. Distinguished by their black-and-brown fur, they are known for their fast running speeds and endurance in the wild.” http://www.listland.com/top-10-fastest-animals-on-land/
@ Law Prof:
I bet you could beat my pugs!
Gus wrote:
Complete or not, it’s a danged good one. And one that very few dudebro leaders could even touch with their behavior or attitudes.
Victorious wrote:
They’d better be …….
It’s weird they repeat “man” and “manhood” so very often for people who already have the correct anatomical parts. They are clearly trying to move away from something they consider feminine. But I don’t think it’s the women in their lives; I think it’s the Gospel itself. Why isn’t it enough to follow Jesus’s lead? Why not just set the Bible as the standard and get your instructions from it? Deep down I don’t think they like the picture it paints. Where is the washing of feet? Where is the first becoming last? All their rhetoric is the opposite of Jesus.
Corbin wrote:
They are only counter-cultural when it comes to women.
Ladies,
How many of us would even bother with a “man” who is so weak and needy that he has to participate in all of this baloney just to pump up his “manhood” (ego?)?
Men’s Fraternity provides men with an encouraging process that teaches them how to live lives of authentic manhood as modeled by Jesus Christ and directed by the Word of God.
These guys would probably not allow Jesus anywhere near their little groups. I am pretty sure his view of what it means to be a man would not work in this culture.
“He will not cry out or raise his voice, nor make his voice heard in the street. A bruised reed he will not break, and a dimly burning wick he will not extinguish…
I just found out today that some teen girls have dubbed this sort of thing: Meninism.
I thought it was clever. Maybe a counter industry will pop up on how horrible Meninism has been for society. I am thinking conferences, books, etc.
Wil M wrote:
I can’t imagine him carrying heat and training his disciples like those guys in the picture.
Victorious wrote:
Really? To me, it looks like the usual masculinity validation games, just with a Christian slant. This isn’t anything unique to them, but as Christians, don’t we believe that we’re supposed to find our identity in being servants of God? I’m not against knowing and enjoying the sexual aspects of oneself, but I think our focus should be on eternal things like kindness, being peace makers, sacrifice, etc…. That’s one big reason this stuff bothers me, it feels like a huge waste of time.
They are a bunch of high-fiving phonies in my book. I guess I am not a real man unless I shoot someone. Maybe I should join the USAF so that I can fly an A-10 and gun down a few Nancy-boys so that I can be more of a man, right?
BTW, I am more artistic than athletic, and I would dare one of these manly men to accuse me of being less than a man because I paint with a brush instead of a paintball gun!
@ Nancy2:
That might ba a dangerous way to look at it, churches have served up so much Biblical Manhood teachings for so long a more apt word for it is decieved rather than weak. I’ve read how some men thought that not making all the decisions is not leading their family. These men need to meet gracious women who can stand up to the bad teachings and show them that there is another way … a whole generation of decieved men are going to need a lot of help to see the truth for what it is.
You pick up a lot reading pastor blogs and articles they write for one another over the years. There is a very distinct us vs them mentality when it comes to the average pewsitters.
If you notice, most of this stuff is focused on pastors, elders and the wannabes. They set themselves apart from their fellow priests (us) on purpose. They talk a lot about how much they need the fellowship of fellow pastors/elders. I have even seen them write about the dangers of friendship with the pewsitters. It is basically an affirming frat club.
It is the total opposite of pastors I knew growing up.
” Noble manhood “, gag! They are wimps who have to pump each other up to combat their fear of,uppity women.
I went to a Men’s Fraternity group back a couple of years ago at a BGC (aka Converge USA) church. It wasn’t horrible or diabolical per se.
These days I am highly skeptical and critical of gender-training endeavors as this clearly is. God made us persons, and persons confound boxes.
I know I had to work pretty hard personally to overcome certain shaming boxes about being a man even as a former collegiate-level football captain. So, I look at such meetings and curriculum with concern. They can easily devolve into shame games–e.g. “You’re NOT a real man. A real man would…”.
Mars Hill Church and “Pastor” Mark Driscoll taught some very damaging stuff in these realms. I hope those teachings aren’t just being recycled by former MHC staff in all of this.
In fact, I can point to one particularly heretical teaching from MHC/MD that caused especially significant spiritual and emotional damage to me personally. I am concerned that such teaching could run without proper checks in place in the bro-dudes realm.
@ Lydia:
Dee and I were discussing this very thing earlier today.
The ME Generation is so evident in these self-absorbed groups.
This is the same old same old repackaged. And since the focus is not on being confotmed to the image of Christ, well…
The whole guns aspect of this is sickening to me. I’m not opposed to hunting per se, but given recent events, i can’t deal with these guys and their profoundly fake version of “masculinity.” If they *really* wanted to do something that made them “better,” they could do things like volunteering for Habitat for Humanity, joining Big Brothers or a similar mentoring progrsm, spend time working at a soup kitchen – any number of things. A few days ago i read about some rather fearsome-looking bikers whose club is dedicated to: animal rescue. Those fellows aren’t messing around with garbage like these programs, I’m sure.
Divorce Minister wrote:
Excellent point, Divorce Minister! Encourages a should/ought-to/must performance based life that would likely cause some to think they have to live up to the expectations of others. Talk about stress and pressure…
Divorce Minister wrote:
It seems like a common thread is the lack of checks and balances when things get out of hand. As it is with the leadership, they are above the rules that apply to everyone and protect each other. With everyone else, they seem inconsistent. I know so many guys that are different and don’t have the same confidence as others – this teaching is wreaking havoc among regular guys.
Does the Authentic Manhood Assoc have an official theme song yet?
If they can get the rights to it, they might want to shoot for
Walk Like a Man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4vWo_rZLoc
Macho Man by The Village People would be an acceptable runner up.
I find this whole Christian thing holding lectures, sermons and classes to men on how to be men to be strange and dippy. If you were born a man, you’re a man, I don’t think you need instructions or directions. If you’re a Christian person (male or female), Jesus is supposed to be your example.
Can anyone here remind me of the number of times Jesus sermonized or pontificated on how to be a real or authentic man?
Or how often Jesus seemed consumed with appearing to be a manly man macho man to people 2,000 years ago?
Are there verses in the Gospels that talk about Jesus watching or participating in MMA, bragging about how much he could bench press to other men, or crushing beer cans in one hand while he watched football?
I guess my copy of the Gospels is missing the psrts about Jesus’ dudebro training session with the apostles…
Here’s the program they should be using:
http://www.artofmanliness.com/
Seriously, as a comparative religion fan, I find this site very helpful in identifying / clarifying what seem to be huge but under-studied movements in US Protestantism. The whole culture still bewilders me, though, and as a complete outsider, I struggle to keep track of who all these people are. Perhaps the “Deebs” would consider writing all this up as an academic monograph, designed to introduce and document this important emerging movement, assuming you can think of some way to demarcate its boundaries. (Think of the similar works on TV evangelism from a few decades ago.) The marketing, organizational, and financial aspects would definitely be of interest. And I suppose it is only a matter of time before US political candidates begin courting these people for support…
numo wrote:
That came after the part where Jesus smoked cigars sitting around playing Poker with Peter, Matthew, and Judas.
Nancy2 wrote:
Not me. My longtime, on-again, off-again, currently on-again boyfriend loves to make friends with animals. They love him back, because he thinks of ways to please them that cater to them, not to him. He wouldn’t fit in with the C4 Manhood crowd.
Kemi wrote:
I agreed with your entire post, especially this part. I’d say this is also true of gender complementarianism.
I don’t see why Christian men can’t just get an idea of how to live life by reading the Bible (particularly looking at the life of Jesus), rather than shelling out money for these conferences or books about manhood.
@ mirele:
Sound like the right kind of guy, mirele.
@ Zla’od:
This has beenmgoing on for a couple of decades now, in both secular and evangelical xtian circles. It began with Robert Bly and his colleagues – pretty much all of the subsequent evsngelical stuff is a bastardized version of Bly’s Iron John, with Binle verses shoehorned in.
As much as i dislike some aspects of Bly’s work at thst timr, he was trying to address real issues. This guff isn’t even close.
@ Daisy:
With beer. Lots of it!
Daisy wrote:
IIRC Promise Keepers promoted Jesus as a “man’s man” and eventually opposition surfaced. I don’t know if that movement is still recruiting men to learn how to be an “authentic” man.
Zla’od wrote:
To be fair, The Art of Manliness website does have some useful articles on topics such as exercise, classic/timeless men’s apparel, and history, in addition to the stereotypical “Manly Men” “Guts, Glory, Guns” type content.
For additional perspective, the website’s author is a Mormon, a religion that mainstream evangelicalism seems to have more and more commonality with on gender/marriage issues.
I really am speechless. I thought the photo at the top was a joke photo. There are probably a lot of church goers completely unaware their pastors are supporting this garbage. I get genuinely concerned when religious extremists pick up guns. It usually doesn’t end well.
I’d be interested to know if the Biblical Counseling Movement ties anywhere into this. I know that whole enterprise is also controlled by a small handful of men.
http://bit.ly/1NNqoCB
Here’s what I got up…it’s an article on John Piper’s comments on the Paris terrorist attacks. If you could figure out why he is silent on the San Bernardino shooting I would be fascinated to hear your take.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/12/10/john-pipers-twisted-response-to-the-paris-terrorist-attacks-my-analysis-of-the-situation/
Hurry up on your post about the Raleigh area!!!! They are crawling out of the woodwork (and Southeastern Seminary)! They have invaded my family, married my niece—ARG!!!! Yes it was a mancentered-gospel centered wedding. I must have heard the “word” gospel 15 times, but they never explained what the gospel is!!! An outsider would walk away thinking gospel had something to do with what happens when a man and woman are wedded. (Is it a euphemism for sex and male dominance?) Thanks for your hard work!!!!
*snort* Evangelical cosplay.
I would look into FBC Little Rock a bit more before you kind of kill everyone. Just kind of saying.
Wow. I had no clue Matt Chandler was involved with Fellowship Associates. I was shunned at a Fellowship church here in Denver because a guy led me on there, and I told my “friend” in my community group about it. She apparently approached him after church about it. He told our community group leader I was spreading gossip about him, so the community group leader told “my friend” to stop talking to me. I never heard from my friend again. I left the church shortly after. Apparently my TVC experience in DFW wasn’t enough for me to stay away from churches like this.
@ Ann:
They can’t explain the Gospel because theirs is not “Good News”.
Dee writes “It is one more Gospel™ based church planting group. (How many of these are there?!!)”
Indeed, church planting is “in” … and New Calvinism has it mastered! However, it is not so much about planting churches, as it is planting theology. These folks are all about advancing the new reformation through a web of various networks and partnerships (such as those you list). Oh, what a tangled web they weave! Their goal (via church plant and/or takeover of non-Calvinist churches) is to advance Calvinism across America. The movement is “Gospel based” only if you accept that Gospel = Calvinism (which they firmly believe).
Corbin wrote:
Counter-culture?! Baloney! These folks are all about being culturally-relevant, which really means they have to be a sub-culture of the world to be successful.
I know this may come across as trivial compared to the many truly disturbing items revealed in this post, but….are these people truly as stupid as they sound? How can you have a “residency” that is “decentralized”? The structure of the program seems to give the lie to its name. Boggles the mind.
@ Divorce Minister:
The biggest reason to be skeptical is that they promote these “gender training” programs right after claiming that everything about sex/gender is hardwired into our brains. Why would I have to go through a yearlong training program to do something I’m already hardwired to do? I didn’t have to be trained how to breathe, how to make my heart beat, etc.
@ Max: Spot on!
@ April Kelsey:
Absolutely! We will be exploring that as well. So much to research, so little time during the holidays. Rest assured, we'll get to it!
When an Authentic Man marries a True Woman, the result must be a Perfectly Biblical couple.
Max wrote:
I agree, which is why I giggle.
Corbin wrote:
Corbin, it may seem like a huge waste of time to you, but for those promoting this Authentic (sic) Manhood stuff, it has the potential to bring in a bucket load of cash. I didn’t check on the website, but I’d be interested in knowing the exact cost of going through this AM (Authentic Manhood) program. There’s books, and CD’s and who else knows what. It’s a money racket, in my opinion.
Jack wrote:
Mae wrote:
LOLOL! Yes, they fear the Feminist Movement. They must, as they say, FIGHT for their marriages.
One thing I am confused about, being an ‘outsider’ and knowing next to nothing about US churches, what is all this about not being able to leave a church?I mean you join a church, attend for a bit, decide after a while to move on and move on; how can the church stop you from going? Am very confused by this.
Hester wrote:
A good point – I recall others raised it back when Franklin Graham was having a fit over Target stores removing “boy” and “girl” signs from their toy department. But this is coming from a guy who thinks, as you put it, what it is to be a boy or girl is hardwired into all of us.
I guess he thinks girls won’t know what toys to play with unless all the “feminine” toys have a “girl” label slapped on them.
I still find the whole thing problematic anyhow, because I was not a girly girl as a kid and preferred to play with toys most people back then considered being for boys, such as toy cars, Bat Man stuff, or Planet of the Apes toys.
Wow do they also sell Amway and have a picture of a mansion on their refrigerators?
But they have a “best practices” focus on leadership. What could go wrong?
BTW – I love how best practices is in quotes. I wonder if they use air quotes when they talk about that.
Jack wrote:
I was dumbfounded too. For skill, resolve, tenacity, and just plain old balls, these blowhards couldn’t hold a candle to the Russian women who fought and died on the Eastern Front (1941-1945).
Daisy wrote:
Would Matt Chandler vote for “Me and My Girls” by Selena Gomez?
Lucie wrote:
Bah ha ha ha. That made me laugh. 🙂
Clarissa wrote:
Some of us on here are long-time “insiders”, and we don’t get it!
Kathi wrote:
Code words?
Daisy wrote:
That was hilarious. The comments had me rolling…
Daisy wrote:
Metal Tonka trucks. My uncle gave me a Swiss Army knife for my 9th birthday. My husband gave me new grips for one of my pistols for my 33rd birthday (he has given me jewelry and kitchenware, too).
I don’t think I could stand it if my husband started going for this Authentic Manhood nonsense!
@ Darlene:
That’s a very big possibility, but I always hope their motivations have at least some good in them.
Divorce Minister wrote:
How come all the Man-Pumping sermons didn’t help Mars Hill Church to stay on course anywho?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSrZVF3FEUQ
@ Daisy:
This, obviously. It even comes with footage from the last man training camp.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGMN-gNfdaY
Perhaps someone here can find that MD snippet where he talks about punching a guy in the nose as the answer to wrong behavior. Is that what Authentic Manhood is coming to these days in the church?
Hester wrote:
Well, from what I’ve gathered, the big bad secular culture is on a mission to destroy maleness and femaleness!! They want us all to be androgynous blobs, a la Strachan. So since you’ve lost it, you need to get it back…
Clarissa wrote:
You might want to check out this blog’s previous posts about church covenants, to start.
Here is a link to but one of several such blog posts:
Further Proof You are Signing a Legal Contract Not A Membership Covenant: Courtesy of The Gospel Coalition
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/04/09/further-proof-you-are-signing-a-legal-contract-not-a-membership-covenant-courtesy-of-the-gospel-coalition/
There is a movement among some American churches – usually the ones that are Neo-Calvinist in theology – where they strongly believe that church attendance is mandatory for every Christian.
They seem to feel that church members are inept idiots who need to be under the control and oversight of preachers and church elders at all times.
If you quit such a church, they think you should join another one. But if you quit their church, you have to do it according to their preferences.
If you quit without getting their approval or permission, they will speak negatively about you to the new church you are going to, if you go to a new one. That has happened to some people.
They might call you at your home all the time, or send you e-mails constantly harassing you about why you are quitting, or asking you not to quit.
The people at your old church will tell the preacher at the new church you are attending that you did not leave your old church on good terms.
Their interpretation of the Bible is such that they think church membership is imperative, and you have to be under authority of a local preacher at all times. They claim they are afraid you will slide into spiritual problems if you are not under a local pastor.
After the picture was taken these so called manly men probably whipped out their smart phones and began taking selfies. Put these bozos out in the real military and take away hot food and sleep and they would wet themselves to get home to momma. This is such cr#p!!! (ed.)
Sorry to sound like a smart alec but I do think you are really on to something and I don’t know the extent of this church planting business and if the recruits are selected because they are hungry for fame and wealth or if they start out genuine. I don’t want to take you off track but sometime I’ll share a story about this sort of thing coming out a different denomination.
Daisy wrote:
I doubt these dudebro Authentic Manhood series talk about being kind toward little children. You know, like Jesus was when He bid the little ones to come to Him. And I doubt these dude-bros would lament over Jerusalem like Jesus did. And I doubt they would cry in public as Jesus did when hearing of Lazarus’ death. And I doubt they would come to the aid of a woman caught in adultery who was about to be stoned.
Nancy2 wrote:
That’s what I’m talking about. 🙂
By being authentically you, you are being an authentic woman. Or, to put it another way, by being true to yourself, you are being a True Woman. I don’t think Christians who strongly push for gender roles appreciate that concept.
I think God wants you to be who he created you to be, which may or may not happen to line up with Christian complementarian ideas.
From the post, caption: “Pastors learning to be authentic™men.”
Well, they could always serve their country, or join an aid organization where they could be part of the security detail. That might scratch the itch to be “authentic men” and be of service, too.
Max wrote:
And “Nothing gets old-fashioned faster than over-Relevance.”
Bookbolter wrote:
Same way as you can have
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
@ JYJames:
However, it might be added that parading around in some get-up for the thrill of it without serving a purpose, that’s what demagogues like Castro or Dear Leader Kim Jong Un, for example, traditionally do. Wear the uniform for the get-up and photo-op but no real purpose.
Darlene wrote:
Which is why the MenaGAWD up top are packing some sort of M4 Assault Carbines.
And packing EMPTY — there’s no magazines in the magazine wells that I can see.
JYJames wrote:
Like Douggie ESQUIRE wearing General Patton’s uniform?
(Like to run him into the REAL George Patton and watch the fireworks…)
Chrstina wrote:
This sounds like the behavior of junior high school kids.
Darlene wrote:
Your post got me to thinking.
Several months ago, I saw an interesting article explaining and chronicling how this acceptance of extreme masculinity among churches is harming churches.
I’m pretty sure the web page I saw had a big photo of Mark Driscoll on it. I’m trying to find it in my bookmarks but haven’t had any success yet.
I still can’t find the exact article I had in mind, but here is something similar:
John Piper and the Rise of Biblical Masculinity
http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2012/february/john-piper-and-rise-of-biblical-masculinity.html?paging=off
As I’ve said before, my anecdotal experience with the YRR crowd has uniformly been that they are indeed scared little boys, profoundly immature, deeply disturbed, typically wounded from an early age by extremely disfunctional relationships, usually with their (pick one or more): alcoholic, abusive, philandering, absent, narcissistic, violent, sadistic fathers. I have found this to be the case without a single exception. So realize, if they doth protest too much, try a bit too hard to prove up their manhood and significance, act a bit unhinged, it is because they are. Most of them just did a really poor job of choosing their parents. So they should be pitied. That said, they should also be exposed and avoided.
Corbin wrote:
This gets me to thinking.
Okay, gender complementarians complain about traditional gender roles being lost or confused in today’s culture. They think women should be passive doormats who take orders from men.
But then they complain about churches becoming too feminine.
They want to have their cake and eat it to – they don’t like femininity, but complain when or if women are not sufficiently feminine enough.
Why are complementarians and other Christian advocates of Authentic Manhood and True Womanhood pushing women to be something (feminine) that they apparently hate so much?
You would think that complementarians would be thrilled with Bruce Jenner being a girly girl feminine Caitlyn. Bruce as Caitlyn may be more feminine and girly than I am, and I was born biologically female. Caitlyn Jenner wears girly dresses more often than I do.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And don’t forget, “Arbeiten Macht Frei.”
http://36.media.tumblr.com/200479730356f9fa993a78de460e4909/tumblr_miwr63eLhx1s76t4to1_1280.jpg
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
They should learn a thing or two from this song:
It’s Hip To Be Square
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Pph3p6zww
Thanks Daisy.
And blimey!
Am gobsmacked!
And heart broken!
Please people read every word of every document you sign, if you don’t fully understand get OUTSIDE help.
Here’s that Mark Driscoll video where he talks about what to do with guys that don’t “submit to authority or obey the chain of command, doesn’t listen, doesn’t do what he’s told…” The answer: “Break their nose.” The person who posted this video said that after MD gave this sermon, he “fired two older, respected pastors.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kayRXtITyw
@ Daisy:
It’s “roles” and “levels of authority”. Women are supposed to be feminine, but their role in the church is only related to helping other lay women. Besides that, everything else is a man’s world. So whenever something womanly escapes it’s “God-ordained” area, it IS disgusting to them…
@ Nancy2:
*eyeroll*
My husband has two rifles and a bow, all of which are specifically designed as hunting weapons. Practice time consists (actually, consisted, because he has to work a lot of overtime lately) of going out to one of the many impromptu ranges on a remote road and carefully aiming at a target on a tree, compensating for wind, etc. Serious users like him have to clean up after rusers who take their manly(TM) military-style firearms out there and spray the trees until their branches fall off, then leave their garbage lying around because apparently that’s manly(TM) too.
@ Darlene:
They most certainly would not compare themselves to mother hens, like Jesus did
@ Law Prof:
It’s a religious version of the MRA / Red Pill movement.
@ Darlene:
In his defense, he was quoting somebody else, and he would only do it in the Octogon.
@ Clarissa:
Some of them make people sign a “covenant” or quasi-contract. Legally unenforcable, of course, but then, critical thinkers are not exactly their target market.
Daisy wrote:
Dealing successfully with men in the workforce and running into one frustration after another in the church I attended I mistook this as one of the problems also. I especially noticed that young men fled at a certain age, and it was not because of a lack of their commitment. There existed a general inability or refusal to deal with disagreement, deal with anything for that matter, a whole host of things that stymied resolution.
I jettisoned the idea years ago but after leaving I now clearly see that it was nothing to do with general male or female characteristics, just a whole series of silencing techniques and when it came to valuing relationships they tossed them aside with no second thought. “Totalitarian niceness” was the term used here that summed it up for me.
Continually trying to scrape the paint and spruce up that decayed institution was wasted labor. Have I said I’m glad to no longer be suffocating in the halls of that asylum?
@ Chemie:
I didn’t realize he was a Mormon. He seems nice.
Most of the “Art of Manliness” site is either practical (but not necessarily sex-linked) or humorous (like their annual drive to persuade men to grow moustaches during the month of November). Occasionally philosophical, but in a big-tent kind of way (e.g. “Manvotionals” or inspirational quotes). There is no assumption of rigid gender roles, believe it or not (see the articles on child care), and unlike some parts of the internet, the posters there are unfailingly polite to women. For them, “manliness” seems to boil down to responsibility.
Mae wrote:
Ding, ding, ding!! We have a winner!!
Bookbolter wrote:
Yes, but they’re all too stupid to notice.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Oh, what a picture THAT would be!!
Ahh, Fellowship Bible Church! Interesting topic. When we left our almost-a-cult church after six years (as newly married young adults), we fled immediately to a Fellowship Bible Church. Not the “mother ship” in Little Rock, but a recently formed congregation that had resulted as the community group of members who lived in a nearby town grew to a sizeable number and decided to fly solo from the mother ship. After what we had been through at our almost-a-cult church, it was a wonderful place of freedom in Christ, of acceptance from other believers, of non-judgmentalism if you missed a service or event. We were shocked to hear our new pastor say, “How often you attend worship services is between you and God. You don’t answer to me.” It was also shocking and delightful to hear him say, “God is not a Republican. And he’s not a Democrat, a liberal, or a conservative. Those designations are of our making, not his. He is GOD.” We were in shocked disbelief when we often heard, “We are a board of elders who desires your feedback. We want to hear from you.” And they were indeed receptive, non-judgmental, and sincere. That church and that pastor and those people were exactly what we needed at that time. We stayed for eleven years, through three other pastors and several interim ones, several changes in music ministers, shifts in elder board members, the purchase of an old church building when we had to leave our warehouse location, and the construction of a new building when the old one was thoroughly outgrown and all possibilities for remaining there were exhausted. We felt as though we had attended at least three completely different churches–not just location, but complete turnovers in leadership.
I had forgotten all about Men’s Fraternity! Mr. Tree, trying to be a good team player, attended a couple of the first meetings our church had. Watching a video telling him that he needed to free his inner wild man was not a good use of his time, and he was not going to “get transparent” in the ensuing discussion with a large group of men he didn’t know very well. These days, we are old enough, worn enough, and wary enough to know at the outset if we just shouldn’t bother. It’s not for nothing that one of my friends calls me her “cynic friend”. Fondly. I think.
Kemi wrote:
Because if they are “real men” they can demand that the women in their lives be “real women”, i.e., appropriately submissive to their “leadership”.
I don’t think that there’s anything that scares all kinds of fundamentalist religion (and politics, I may say) more than the loss of male privilege.
The loss of male privilege is even scarier to them than the loss of white privilege.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Making that link is an insult to cosplayers.
Mae wrote:
This ^^!
Corbin wrote:
And why, exactly, would anyone want to be like Strachan? Please enlighten me!
April Kelsey wrote:
My tentative idea is that the same kind of anti-intellectualism underlies both. Observational learning and rigorous thought has been replaced by a kind of magical thinking. They lift sentences from an ancient text, weave a theology from those bits, and declare it the complete truth for all the world. They have a simplistic answer for every issue and believe themselves appointed/anointed by the Maker of the Universe to order us to obey. Gospel!
It allows them to believe (and act on) astonishingly goofy and destructive ideas.
IMO, the structural thread in their theology is a hunger for authority and control. They assign these qualities to God and then adopt them for themselves, because image-bearers.
They have no awareness that this means rejecting the character and ethics of Christ. Their hunger makes them that blind.
Jenny Islander wrote:
That’s what my husband says too. He has a small range on our property, and has shot competitively, in a league (target shooting) for 25 years. He refused to join paint ball leagues, shoot ’em up clubs, as he views most of the antics as false bravado.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
No clips, but lots of tats and facial hair!
Me manly man….tats, beard, weapons, me take care little woman….grrr.
I beat my husband in skeet shooting once, so it’s not only a “manly” sport.
Victorious wrote:
This is an object lesson in the perils of selective quotation …
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I sure hope they’re empty! I wouldn’t trust any one of these wannabe-Rambos with a loaded M4!
Mae wrote:
He’s probably right! My husband spent 24 years in the military; made it into Special Forces; light weapons specialist; jump master; did 3 tours in Iraq and when “things” happened, I found out from other people – not him. He doesn’t brag, tell war stories, or show off to anyone, EVAH!!! His family has no clue what he did.
Gus wrote:
Uhm hum. If one of them ever had to deal with a “real woman” for any length of time, he would learn that he is definitely not a “real man”, and he never will be!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Poor boys are probably afraid of shooting themselves in the feet!
GK wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Can you imagine what would happen if you gave these guys a loaded gun?
BC wrote:
Wanna write a post about it? Send me an email.
BC wrote:
You are on a roll today. I knew a family over two decades ago who said they were going to move to a house in a wealthy area ( $1+million). I still make a point to ask them if they have moved to the house yet, 20 years later. They haven’t. Same old house filled with lots of Amway boxes, tapes, etc.
Dee, update us, please.
How are things going with your family?
Clarissa wrote:
You need to read a number of posts we have written about this. Many of these church contracts state that you should leave well.™ That means you tell them why you are leaving and that you are leaving to attend an approved (by the former church.”)
So, our good friend Todd, disagreed with his church, UCCD (Dubai-9Marks) pushing CJ Mahaney books since that ministry was involved in some child sex scandals. he decided to take his time in joining another church, wanting to avoid getting in with people who coddle bizarre and abusive ministers. That was not allowed. They refused to allow him to leave and decided to put him under church discipline.
You can read about this here.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/10/30/my-my-dubai-9-marks-played-hardball-while-lifeway-david-platt-stretched-the-truth/
An even worse situation happened at The Village Church (Matt Chandler-Dallas) in which the church disciplined a woman who wanted to annul her marriage to a kiddie porn (even babies) viewing man. He was not disciplined. She had resigned and the refused to let her go sending missives to thousands of members claiming that she was sinning.
Start here and chronologically read a number of posts on this subject.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/21/the-village-church-child-pornography-and-a-hero-makes-a-statement/
This will get you started. There’s plenty more.
@ Nancy2:
For sure. The Mr. was in the Marines back in the 60’s/70’s.
Mae wrote:
Don’t forget the backwards baseball caps and ASSAULT RIFLES (i.e. the Muscle Cars of firearms)!
Clarissa wrote:
Well, they can’t really. But, their church membership covenants are written in a way to intimidate you enough to believe that they have that level of control over you. Within New Calvinism, dis-fellowship and shunning are typical practices. It works like this. If you opt to leave a NC church after you discover its leaders are too authoritarian, its practices are too controlling and manipulating, and its message is spattered with aberrant theology … then if an elder or member of your small group sees you at Walmart, they will avoid you – snub their noses and not talk to you. That sort of high school stuff to make you feel lesser than them. They essentially are saying to you “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19). And, Praise God, they would be right!! The church of the living Christ is a free church, not one bound by the teachings and traditions of men … and antics of “lead” pastors and “elder” teams in their 20s-30s. If you find yourself in such a church, put your behind in your past as soon as possible.
Nancy2 wrote:
You are so very kind. Things are still in a bit of turmoil. All three of the parents are quite sick and needing quite a bit of backup care from me. I now do all of my mother’s shopping and visit about 3 times a day to deal with medical issues. Thankfully, they live 1 1/2 miles from me.
My husband’s mom is starting to decline with her cancer. She will be arriving here next week and we will begin plans to move her here to be with us. This will make my ability to care for them on a daily basis much easier.
We have started to draw up the plans for the addition to the house and it will move along quickly since everyone is in place to help us. We hope to be able to move my mom and her husband in by the end of the summer. Her husband (my stepfather)is not doing well so his longevity is in question. My mom has become housebound due to severe arthritis in her back.
Bill’s mom is coming next week to stay with us for a bit and to make plans for her move to the area. Her diagnosis in not good and we suspect their may be some brain mets. She would move to where my mom and Lou are living. We could them move her in here with us since there is enough room. This is the advantage of us not having downsized when our kids moved out which we considered. Now, we think we will not move from the house, Lord willing, since we will now have a handicapped space in the house for when we decline as well.
But, there is a shining light in the midst of this, my dear son, Will, will graduate with honors this weekend in accounting. He is CPA eligible and all he needs is some experience and one course. He is the best student in audit which is awesome. He did this while suffering with the side effects of his narcolepsy medicines. We are going to the graduation and he will be returning to Raleigh where he is interviewing for jobs. I did not know that there was a serious shortage of accountants/auditors so he should be in good shape.
We will help him modify his meds with the help of his physicians. He wishes to go off his “breaking bad” day time drug and will attempt to transition to another med which will probably make him feel sick for a couple of weeks. He will live with us until his meds and job are resolved and then he most likely will live with some long time buddies.
My one daughter’s biopsies just came back negative. She had some bleeding and fissures for over a year.I bet you can guess where. They did some repairs and she is doing better. But, with her history of brain cancer, you can bet I was a basket case.
My other daughter now has emergency placed foster kids and I had two sweet little girls at my house for Thanksgiving. Their history was so sad. I am so proud of Emily and Scott for doing this.
Revenge is sweet. Scott and Emily asked me for any tricks to getting kids to sleep past 6 AM. I laughed and said they were looking at it the wrong way. The trick is to do with less sleep themselves. They were not amused.
Finally, I wish to avoid politics on this blog so i will not mention the candidate. In a series of really strange circumstances, I was invited, along with other health professionals, to Washington DC to review a health policy statement for one of the candidates
Since the invitation was totally unexpected, I decided that God had something in mind. So I went. Plus, they paid for everything. I drove up instead of flying, and was able to eat lunch with “Happy Mom” and meet her new grand baby. Eagle joined me for dinner at Joe Theismann’s where they make the best balsamic dressing ever. I usually find such a dressing bland. I brought home a bottle, assuming one of these days I will go back to cooking up a storm.
I want you and all of the readers to know that I spoke out strongly about child sex abuse as well as domestic violence and the plight of single mothers. I mentioned my concern for the poor response on child sex abuse in today’s evangelical churches and discussed the issue of statute of limitations which need to be much, much longer than they currently are.
I was able to discuss my concern for the health of native Americans due to my experience on the Navajo Reservation. I decried the appalling care of our veterans by the Veterans Administration, honoring both our dads as well as my mother’s husband Lou who spent years in the Air Force.
I spent a few minutes with one well known syndicated writer who did not believe that there was a serious problem in the church regarding child sex abuse. He kept asking bout false memories. I told him he was two decades behind and that the false memory movement is now well known and rejected by almost every sane practitioner. He asked me to send him some of my stories.
Needless to say, there are about 4 weeks of unread newspapers and my husband is threatening to cut off my subscription (he won’t since I told him I would no longer make my famous spaghetti sauce if he did so.) I have most of the Christmas decorations up, the tree is up and the lights are on it but I won’t have time for the ornaments until next week. I may make my son do it! I plan to spend next Tuesday online and order all gifts in one fell swoop.
In the meantime there are lots of people I am speaking with on the phone who have some serious stories. Please pray that I answer well as I am terribly distracted these days.
You are so, so kind to think of me. This blog means the world to me. I have met wonderful people like you, I have been able to discuss issues that have been on my mind for years, and i have found lots of folks who actually want to discuss them. I used to think I was the only one until I met Deb. Then I thought we were the only two.
Thank you for letting me get this update off my chest. I will be out of town for 3 days starting tomorrow but I am going to put up a doozy of a post written by Nate Sparks tomorrow with an intro by me. He has the absolute best comeback to the complementarian argument that “we are against abuse” that i have ever read.
Max wrote:
Remember how their Beloved Calvin ran Geneva.
Nancy2 wrote:
Those who have Seen the Elephant don’t brag about it.
Boots who haven’t and/or wannabes can’t stop bragging.
It’s the difference between DC’s Sgt Rock and Marvel’s Nick Fury/Howling Commandoes.
@ Deb:
Hint: Look up Dennis Frey and David Tyler and follow the money.
Max wrote:
I liken this to business employment contracts I have signed in the past. As a condition of employment, there is a usual clause asking you to agree “not to go to work for a competitor” if you leave. Such clauses are meant to intimidate, since they won’t stand up in a legal case – unless there is an unusual circumstance concerning your exit. You have a right to use your training and experience to find employment in your field, even if that means going to work for a company in competition with the one you left. Of course, you can’t take trade secrets, company-specific intellectual property, client documents, etc. with you, but you can move on unhindered by such agreements otherwise. The same thing goes for church membership covenants. If you’ve signed one, don’t lose any sleep over it; if you haven’t signed one, don’t.
Ann wrote:
Deb will do a post on the Raleigh area next week, tied into this mancentric faith.I am thinking about calling this stuff “being Driscollized.”
@ Lucie:
Needless to say, Bill and I are imperfect but lots of fun!
Jack wrote:
I thought you might! It is rather stunning, isn’t it?
Stan wrote:
Hey, papa (Remember I am your daughter….) You must update me on this one. It sound like a post. Was this pre Karen Hinkley or post Karen Hinkley? Could you email me?
BTW, loved having lunch with you!
Kemi wrote:
Boom!
Wil M wrote:
Can you imagine the Jesus of peace and love in their midst? I wonder if Jesus would challenge them regarding the use of church money to support pastors in this nonsense?
Dan from georgia wrote:
This make no sense for pastor training. Maybe, deep down inside, this is a way to release their hostilities at the church members who don’t see it their way?
@ dee:
Dee, thank you for sharing this with TWW readers. And thank you for sticking with the blog challenges on behalf of the Body of Christ, in view of the multiple caregiver tasks on your plate. I wish you and yours a Very Merry Christmas. P.S., on behalf of your husband, I urge you to continue doing your complementarian part on that spaghetti sauce, lest you be shunned.
Divorce Minister wrote:
I truly believe that this movement has been “Driscollized.” Since Chandler, who took over for Driscoll in Acts 29, does not seem to be changing things, except to use *nice* language. The future looks bleak.
BTW, thank you for speaking with the pastor whose wife left him. He has been under an enormous burden and seems like such a sincere and nice guy. He really, really appreciates you.
@ Tree:
Teehee. Reminds me of the evopsych garbage spouted by MRAs:
http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2015/12/09/mgtow-science-korner-men-are-the-primary-victims-of-female-nature-what-with-all-the-babies-and-whatnot/
On a slightly different note, sometime just before Thanksgiving I read something somewhere (maybe from Piper? don’t recall) about how it’s not wrong for women to do these things, but it really should men who drive the car, carve the turkey, etc. because it’s symbolic (or something along those lines). All I could see in my mind’s eye was one of those Norman Rockwell-esque family Thanksgiving paintings where the dad is carving the turkey, only captioned with:
ALPHA MALE SLAY FEARSOME BEAST
WHOLE TRIBE FEAST ON ITS FLESH
AND GOD SAW THAT IT WAS GOOD
@ Corbin:
Feminists and atheists want to turn us into Boohbahs?!?!?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJvHrx1X-Gk
Max wrote:
Shhhh-I love the sauce myself so i would never do it. But don’t tell him… Merry Christmas to you as well!
I have encountered real men before, they did not have to tell themselves or anyone else they are real men, it was obvious.
Quoted from the article: “Fellowship Associates exists to call men into Authentic Manhood and to train leaders to plant churches.”
Was out of town for a while and am catching up.
I read the article until I reached the above quote. Then I got up and walked away in OMG, WTF frustration.
Then I calmed down, came back, and read the rest of the article which included this quote from the article concerning the Men’s Fraternity:
“These time-tested resources have been used all over the world to equip men to make their pursuit of noble manhood a lifelong priority.”
This cancer/leaven/deception of the Pharisees runs so deep with tentacles reaching out so very far. It just boggles.
Now I get the find time during the rest of the day to read everyone else’s comments on this.
I needed a get out of town break pretty bad. But the downside of that is that I miss so much that goes on here.
Dan from georgia wrote:
Thing is, these men would probably run if faced with battle.Fake soldiers are just that, fake. I have noticed that most ” preacher boy ” types have never served in the military ( nor their “manly” boys) but act like they are warriors. They also don’t have much reservation about sending other people’s children, off to war.
I posted this on the last thread about gender stuff and thought it would fit here too:
No such thing as male or female brains, study says
http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/well-good/teach-me/74682857/no-such-thing-as-male-or-female-brains-study-says
Snippets:
Researchers who analysed more than 1400 brain scans have come to the conclusion that when it comes to gender and the brain, there is no sharp division between male and female – it’s all a bit of a grey area.
…. thankfully, this latest study isn’t the only one to challenge these assumptions.
….The truth is that many of the reasons we believe that men and women’s brains are wired up so differently is because it’s convenient – and it’s likely our cultural assumptions could have influenced how the studies were conducted and interpreted.
I can’t help but imagine the dialogue that goes with the picture at the top:
“What’s that smell?”
“That’s estrogen.”
“I’m scared!”
“We’re all scared, Bobby. We’re all scared.”
@ Daisy:
Another thing: other reports I’ve seen on that same study explain that the study shows that male brains have some traits many would consider female, and female brains have some traits many would consider male, and that it is very rare for any person to have a 100% male or 100% female brain.
The article I gave you all above doesn’t really explain that aspect of the study, I don’t think.
This one might explain that a bit more:
Male and female brain? Research says they’re unisex
http://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-male-female-brain-health-1201-20151201-story.html
In light of studies like this (among other things) I do hope CBMW and these groups that promote “Authentic Manhood” type courses stop arguing that men and women are just totally different across the board, because it doesn’t appear to be true.
dee wrote:
I can’t wait for Acts 30 to get here and put the 29th chapter in our past! What a ride!
Yes, Chandler with his clean-cut appearance, trim hairdo, and more carefully controlled speech is a more deceiving face to the reformed message … than the macho, in-your-face, potty-mouth, spiky hair Driscoll. Although, from the video on TWW’s previous piece, it looks like Mr. Driscoll lost his locks during the stress of this year. Being a cool 40-something will be tougher for him now … he will probably end up shaving it off like many of his NC bald cohorts. Additionally, if he hangs out with the Pentecostals in his new ministry, he will find that they dress and act much more civilized than his old gang. We got a touch of his new kindness on the video. But beware.
I googled “CBMW, Biblical Counseling Coalition” and discovered Owen Strachan totally enmeshed in both.
The first listed site: ” CBMW | Biblical Counseling Coalition Blogs,” as though they are partnering organizations. Bob Kellemen, the (former?) executive director of the BCC is a featured writer for the TCC, where he advocates for biblical counseling. SBTS and BCC partner as well. I stopped searching, as the links among your list of organizations and the men in them are vast.
My search this morning reinforced a troubling trend I have noticed: TGC, BCC, CBMW and probably others have a strange media presence. They direct their readers to each others’ websites, books, and conferences, yet limit any contact with a private individual. I have requested return communication from all of them, and received nothing; I have submitted thoughtful comments, with none of them making it past moderation. I have researched their newer contributors for background information (like education and vocational experience) and the searches turn up empty. Posts are regularly scrubbed when content elicits controversy. They seem almost hollow with a thin shiny shell. Like they are balancing indoctrination with reputation enhancement.
Ken wrote:
LOL! It is indeed!
@ Janet:
Hmm, this is post worthy. Thank you for checking this out. I think this alliance thing runs far deeper than we thought.
@ Zla’od:
Thank you for this link. It is very helpful.
Uncle Dad wrote:
The scary part is that those three guys are “pastors”! From the looks of them, if a bad guy walked into their church, I suspect the pew would see nothing but their behinds and elbows scurrying for an exit, the young pastors screaming all the way.
@ Bill M:
I don’t know why so many men in the church complain that church is too feminine, and that is why men are fleeing.
Many churches (the ones who buy into gender comp or views similar to it) do not grant women any or much power or authority in churches. Only men are permitted to have leadership roles. Therefore, if churches are too feminine, the fault would be with those men running the church.
I don’t think that pushing hyper- masculinity (which may alienate some women) is the way to fix this perceived problem.
I’m not totally sure what “too feminine” means in a church context, does it mean flowers all over the church sanctuary or mauve carpeting?
@ dee:
All the things you have going on at the same time is a tremendous amount of pressure with which to juggle and cope. I’m praying for you and yours.
dee wrote:
Awesome! I hope the girls can be with your family for Christmas – it would be extra special all the way around!
If I ever have that much stress on my plate, I hope I will be “Dee strong”!
A. Stacy wrote:
Your comment is really interesting.
First of all, I did read quite a bit on that website prior to posting. We always look at the church, their beliefs, resources, etc. I also looked for articles that might have give us a clue if the current pastor had disavowed some of the manliness™ stuff.
From yesterday’s post it is obvious they have not.
“There is a tie to Bill Wellons SR even in the endorsements. The current leader of FBC Little Rock, the church Wellons founded, endorsed this, naturally.
Paul Chapman, a member of Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, shares about his “faith journey” and how Men’s Fraternity played an integral part in bringing him to Christ.”
Statement of beliefs
For example, on their website, they make a strong statement on complementarianism and gender roles.
http://www.fellowshiponline.com/about/beliefs/
Books
Now mosey on over to the books they endorse.
http://www.fellowshiponline.com/recommended-books/
Let’s see,
CJ Mahaney who has an abysmal record of a multiple child sex abuse scandal; how embarrassing that he is recommended. That speaks volumes.
John Piper who does not believe women should be muscular or even be in positions of authority over men in secular jobs,does not believe in divorce and remarriage for ANYTHING, including abuse.and who has been avid supporter of CJ Mahaney while not once mentioning the victims of abuse. In fact they feature his book- a man how has shown little. empathy for abuse victims. Oh yeah, he also said women should endure abuse for a season. (I have written on all of these and have proof)
Then there is DA Carson’s book who *exonerated* CJ Mahaney while never once contacting the victims.
However, I did find it amusing that they have a book by Stanley Hauerwas on the list. The Gospel Coalition boys would have a cow.
So, did I *kill* the church? That depends on who is reading this. If you believe in the manliness movement and adore CJ Mahaney and John Piper then you should love this post.
If you don’t like these men and their manliness agenda, you won’t.
Or, are you concerned that there is guilt be association? if so, everyone needs to remember what my mama told me when I was a kid. You are known for those who you call friends.
BTW, if you would like us to do a full post on FBC Little Rock, let us know. If you have time, would you please send me their membership *covenant?*
Dan from georgia wrote:
Come on! Nancy-boys??? Makes me think of Johnny Cash’s “A Boy Named Sue”!
How about pansy-boys instead?
dee wrote:
You know after knowing and meeting Happymom and her family it blows my mind that anyone in Sovereing Grace could have problems with her family. Very beautiful, loving and kind. I would think any chruch would want to have them involved.
I miss you Mom…it was good to discuss Neo-Calvinism, Redeemer Arlington, Sovereign Grace, 9 Marks, etc… all with you. You do a good job and this blog has been amazing. We all love you and our your biggest supporter. I think I may have to visit Theissman’s and get some salad dressing for you! 🙂
This was recently put on CT’s site:
Church Planting 2015: Who Attends and What Attracted Them
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/december/church-planting-2015-who-attends-what-attracted-lifeway.html
Speaking of Fellowship Associates network…I am working on a post about Campus Crusade’s Christmas Conference. I am reading, researching and reviewing each conference. I think there are 9. This has been a very labor intensive post that I am working on.
Anyhow I discovered that one of the main speakers at the Denver Christmas Conference is Brandon Washington from the Fellowship Associates network. You can read his profile on the Cru winter conference page.
http://godcc.com/brandon-washington/
Give me a couple of days..this has been labor intensive. When I get home from work I am looking at the Minneapolis and Indianapolis conference. remember I am a one man gig who works full time. 🙂
Daisy wrote:
I first heard the term Hyper-Masculinity in a reprint of a 1943 OSS psych profile of one A.Hitler.
There it was described as redefining masculinity entirely in terms of Power and Aggression, burning out anything else as “Feminine”, and firewalling what was left (Power, Control, Aggression) to the max.
Somewhere else I read a description of Hyper-Masculinity as “consisting entirely of picking fights, shooting guns, and getting laid”.
Pity those Authentic Manhood ‘Pastors’ in the pic above don’t shoot themselves in the foot on their sad little ‘team building’ exercise as often as they shoot themselves in the foot theologically.
Mae wrote:
Or calling for a military coup during the last Congressional gridlock.
dee wrote:
“Just like the MRA/PUA/Manosphere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
@ dee:
Thinking of you, my husband’s mother was in palliative care for four weeks and passed away last Saturday morning. The emotional energy was the most draining, will be praying for you and your family.
Max wrote:
And why do #2 and #3 in line in the photo have a hand on the shoulder in front of them?
Look at their stances, the shoulder straps, and the way they position the weapons. Do they really know how to handle firearms?
@ dee:
I’m sorry you’ve been through so much. You must be exhausted with all the care-taking, too.
dee wrote:
Didn’t Benny Hinn wish for a “Holy Ghost Machine Gun” to use on anyone who wasn’t 1000% with him?
Hester wrote:
Nancy2 wrote:
Only reason you do that is to keep contact in LOW VISIBLITY CONDITIONS.
And that photo doesn’t look low visibility.
At least the MenaGAWD at right and left are holding them with muzzles up or down instead of as substitute erections. And with trigger fingers extended OVER the trigger guard instead of on the trigger. So they at least have that much sense. (I’ve been around a guy who was a Firearms Accident Waiting to Happen exactly ONCE. Never again.)
But they’re still packing their M4 Penis Extenders EMPTY.
@ dee:
Thanks for the update, Dee. Continuing to pray for you and your family.
Hester wrote:
I was just reading a page yesterday that said Piper (and a co- author) admitted in some book or article that a lot of the stuff he harps about is culturally conditioned (not biblical), but he still feels women should cave in to those cultural norms
(like always let the man drive the car, or pay for dinner on a date, or whatever).
A lot of gender comps go on and on about how Christian egalitarians have supposedly been influenced by secular feminism and culture.
But here you have a comp like Piper admitting in some book or blog post that he thinks Christians should cave in to secular norms – this means “his side” is actually guilty of going by culture rather than the Bible, which is something comps accuse egalitarians or mutualists of.
Secondly, what culture is Piper talking about, exactly, when he says Christians should go ahead and concede to cultural norms regarding gender roles?
Piper and other gender comps prefer 1950s era America. We may have some sexism in culture today, but women in 2015 have made more strides.
One of the New Testament writers (Paul, I believe) said that Christians should, for the sake of the Gospel, more or less try to go along with whatever current cultural practices are where ever they live.
In other words, if you are a Christian who lives in a culture where everyone wears a yellow hat, then you should also wear a yellow hat.
If you wear a green hat, and that is considered weird or distasteful to the culture you’re in, Paul begs his readers not to do that, because it may turn the un-converted off to the Christian faith.
So here we are in the year 2015 and John Piper and other gender comps want today’s Christians to treat women as Americans did in 1952.
That has the result of making that type of Christianity look very bad and backwards to the un-converted, and even to women who are already Christian.
I linked to an article a couple weeks back on TWW about Christian women who are so fed up with being relegated to second class status in Christian circles, due to their gender, that they have left the Christian faith for what they feel are more “woman affirming” religions, such as New Age or Wicca.
That is one very real, negative outcome to what some Christians teach.
And it also goes against what Paul said. If your teaching about gender and marriage and so on is such that you are making the church look sexist and “behind the times” to Non-Christians, you might want to consider that your interpretation of Biblical texts about gender is wrong.
And it’s also acting as an unnecessary stumbling block to NonChristians who might otherwise consider the faith.
Janet wrote:
Great description! And yes, they rarely engage the peasants in any meaningful and authentic way. If they did, the gig would be up.
@ Max:
The irony is that with the new image and brand management, he will need to trot out Grace more than ever. He has to show a unified front and women are more visible in that world. In first years of the resurgence, she was in the background. He even bragged about filtering her emails because women gossip.
@ dee:
My first thoughts on reading your update were, “I don’t know how she keeps going” — but I do — and I’m glad you do. Continuing to pray you and Bill find the grace and energy you need each day …
Mae wrote:
Plague of US preachers falsely claim to be Navy SEALs
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/11/us_preachers_claim_to_be_navy_seals/
@ Uncle Dad:
I just wanted to say that your screen name reminds me of this weird cartoon on CN called “Uncle Grandpa.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Grandpa
@ Margaret:
Margaret, please pass my condolences to your husband at the loss of his mother. Both of you will be in my morning prayers.
Nancy2 wrote:
There it is. I haven’t seen or heard an in-country-vet of any of our wars brag or swagger. When you’ve been in the s#it it will haunt you to your grave.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Do they know how to load a clip and jack one into the chamber?
Nancy2 wrote:
No, you don’t understand! “Real women” submit! They do! Sure! Always!
You can’t trust women to know what a “real woman” is! You never can trust women!
Al: “Women – you can’t trust ’em. They don’t understand the double standard.”
(From the TV show “Quantum Leap”, http://www.classictv.info/show/quotes.asp?show=46 )
Okay, so I just read all of this and everyone’s comments (thanks for updating us Dee) thinking for sure someone else would already have said this:
But, I am I only one who sees Charlie’s Angels in the picture? That is why I thought it a joke.
Daisy wrote:
Yeah, right. I wish Piper could have met my 5’11” red headed great-grandma, and her mother. They wore dresses, but that’s where the gender boundaries stopped.
Dee, I’m thinking about you today. My oldest daughter attends the same school as your son, and it’s a long way! I’m praying all goes well with graduation and the many transitions you have coming up. Thank you and Deb for everything you do here.
@ Daisy:
My niece, my brother’s daughter, started calling me “Uncle Dad” a few years ago when she was thanking me for being in her life when her own father had pretty much abandoned her. Like most nicknames, that one stuck!
Gus wrote:
At first I thought you were quoting Al Mohler!!!!
@ dee:
You are an amazing woman! May God richly bless each and every activity you undertake to fulfill.
@ dee:
Piper is quoted as if he were the fourth member of the Godhead . . . how does he get away with such open misogyny and still maintain his credibility among the Reformed? Does he have some kind of sexual identity issue himself? What is going on with him ?
Daisy wrote:
Let me take an attempt, hopefully without someone taking offensive. In my lifetime there has been a lot of leftover in the culture of the idea of “the little woman”. By this I mean the meek, timid, submissive type taken from both historical and perceived roles of men and women. So without wanting to get sidetracked on how that is wrong I will note that the professional “pastor” has sidelined everyone into the role of “the little woman”.
So instead of a church that teaches people to excel and helps each person to achieve their best, we have a professional class in the church that minimizes, thwarts, and stymies any attempts to do more than what is “approved”, so they can maintain control of the institution.
So for many, at least the ones I’ve talked to, the church being “too feminine” is basically a misdiagnosis combined with an contorted view of men and women. So rather than men and women getting upset with each other, both should be upset that they have been forced into the role of “the little woman”.
Daisy wrote:
Argh…..so telling isn’t it?
Tree wrote:
Kudos, I consider skepticism one of spiritual gifts.
@ Muff Potter:
Exactly right.
Christiane wrote:
No question. It continues because churches like FBC Little Rock place him there.
@ Mae:
I’m just a woman who has lived a rather typical life and asked a lot of questions!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have read critiques that a lot of hyper masculinity is defined as whatever is not feminine.
A lot of the guys who are into this seem to feel that anything feminine is weak, disgusting, to be avoided.
It bothers me to see male Christians buying into this stuff. It’s an insult to women. The Bible says both men AND women are made in God’s image.
By denigrating femininity or anything about women, they are in effect denigrate women themselves. And God created women, so God must be A-OK with women and femininity.
Margaret wrote:
I’m so sorry for your and your husband’s loss.
Bookbolter wrote:
Wow.
This school has been a blessing in the life of our family. My daughter who is a nurse at Duke’s Surgical Trauma ICU where they are trying to convince her to be the clinical leader, attended there as well. Her training was incredible and she regularly outshines graduates from other schools.The professors were kind to her and gave her extra help when she needed it since she has some difficulty with short term memory in studying due to her surgeries for a brain tumor when she was little. She loved the school and has many friends that she visits and stays in touch with.
My son struggled with narcolepsy which was not diagnosed until 2/15. The school was so helpful to us in terms of granting him some leeway in the time it took him to take tests, etc, He has gone from a barely B student to a straight A student in Accounting in the last year since he began treatment. Right now, there is a shortage of accountants and job opportunities look great.
That school focuses on getting kids degrees with great job opportunities and my two are examples of that. I hope your daughter does as well as my kids did. Please let me know if I can ever be of assistance.
@ Uncle Dad:
I’m glad you’re there for your niece. I’m sorry her dad dropped out of her life, but I am glad you’ve stepped to be a part of hers. The “Uncle Dad” screen name makes me grin every time I see it.
My other favorite TWW screen name is “Dr Fundystan, Proctologist.” (I hope I spelled it right.) HUG’s screen name is also pretty good.
Patti wrote:
I will never look at the picture in the same way again!
Lydia wrote:
Yes, Driscoll will even bump into women preachers/teachers in the Pentecostal ranks. They firmly believe (as they should) that God calls and gifts them, too. Some of those spirit-filled gals will remember Brother Driscoll’s past and may give him a piece of their mind (in love, of course). In his last world – the one he helped invent – women were bound and oppressed. If you walk into an average NC church today and look closely, you can see the bondage on the countenance of young women all over the house.
Bill M wrote:
So even men (the pew potatos) have been relegated to the role of women. Interesting idea.
That may be why even some of the rank and file male members in gender comp based churches defend gender comp so vehemently.
And why they need these “How to be a Tough Guy” seminars every other month.
Mae wrote:
I wonder if the elders and preachers who like to play at Soldier Boy get upset over stories such as:
US military opens combat positions to women
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/politics/u-s-military-women-combat-positions/
Nancy2 wrote:
Rear Admiral Upper Half Albert “Al” Calavicci, USN, is a fictional character on the science fiction television series Quantum Leap, played by Dean Stockwell. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Calavicci )
But I’m sure that Al Mohler wouldn’t be such a bad fit, either.
“These cohorts of six pastors—all in similar places of life and ministry— will meet together once a quarter for two years to consider these characteristics together through unique experiences, time with recognized experts in the field, and time building into one another the encouragement we all need to sustain fruitful ministry.”
+++++++++++++
Jamie Munson? A recognized expert in the field? you must be joking. (as spoken by Sean Connery as James Bond)
Anyone who has followed the devastation & folly of MH (Grand Central for real shenanigans) is as incredulous as I am.
credibility just fizzled down to a final pfft for Men’s Fraterity / Leadership Collect / Authentic Manhood
dee wrote:
Yes, the Charlie’s Angels analogy is quite the image. The only “pastor” who has any sense in that pic is the one in the back who has his face concealed behind his gun. The tattooed Rev. hunkered down in the middle looks ready to push the “lead” pastor into the line of fire before he high-tails it out of church. Where do you reckon these pastors will stash their assault rifles – under the pulpit? (no wait, they don’t use pulpits).
From the Post:
Doesn’t C4 have the unfortunate tendency to blow up, if you’re not careful, or if you don’t know what you are doing?
that screen shot of Pastors learning to be authentic™men…. the picture of insecurity.
an unwitting self-admission to being perpetual 12-year-old men, ever trying to redeem and compensate for having missed alpha status in jr. high. or maybe it’s preschool, automatic weapons & all (only this time they’re real).
pathetic, and really very sad.
elastigirl wrote:
Another way the church mirrors Corporate America. I’ve had the misfortune to deal with a number of bad CEOs over the years. They run a company into the ground yet they pop back up in another in short order, commanding ever larger compensation. Most recently a client hired a guy as CEO that came from a defunct company, I dropped them as a client after dealing with the guy for a few short months. Within a year the company went under and was bought out.
The guy’s name was Les and people there said they would rather work for less than work for Les. He hasn’t yet resurfaced again at another CEO position but is now on the speaking circuit. It all sounds similar to the stuff we churn over here.
elastigirl wrote:
“Real Shenanigans” – now that’s the perfect title for a certain ex-pastor’s next book.
Patrice wrote:
Always learning, never coming to a knowledge of the truth.
Max wrote:
There are women pastors and leaders and so-called prophets and evangelists in that spirit-filled world every bit as ruthless and despicable and Machiavellian as Driscoll ever was. Should he run into one who thinks him less than useful to her career advancement and she perceives him as standing in her way, he may get the surprise of his life and a taste of his own venom.
Nancy2 wrote:
My 5′-2″ grandma, born in 1911 (God rest her soul) who had a taste for beer, a sharp tongue and a volcanic temper would’ve eaten a nebbish like Piper for lunch.
Daisy wrote:
Yes, I would think so. Can’t have women defending men, now can we? Piper must be close to going into an anaphylactic shock.
My husband and son were Marines. Both of them agree, it’s not who gets the job done, but that the job gets done.
My son was in the air wing of the Marines, he served with more then a few excellent female pilots. Husband says the most accurate/ deadly sniper was a Russian women in WW2.
dee wrote:
Dee, they already have that category covered. They release those hostilities through passive aggressive swipes from the pulpit, slander, and secret inner room meetings in which they “love their congregation well” by devising sadistic means of discipline and if all else fails, excommunication and shunning.
Really, at the end of the day, what is church to many of these people but a means of stroking their brittle egos and venting their rage at God by hurting His people?
@ dee:
Lunch was awesome! So happy I could make it. My next step is to get to Raleigh on a Saturday night for your small group.
No, sorry for the misunderstanding, I don’t know anything more about the Karen Hinckley situation. My point was that at gospel(TM)-centered churches they’ll have all kinds of ambiguously defined names to call you if you don’t do what they want or live how they think you should. Prideful, hypocritical, “having a critical spirit”, self-reliant, etc. Now I mostly agree with Gus from the top thread in that being manly is about having positive principles and living by them, and sometimes that takes courage and cost. They certainly don’t want you to have a courage and pay the cost of telling a 30 year old elder that you disagree with their accusation of being, for example, self-reliant.
So, this is just my amateur psychology here, but the shame, guilt, fear, and dependence on an authoritarian institution that they say is part of “authentic gospel-centered” Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with traditional ideals of positive masculinity. Which leaves them looking for masculinity in the biggest guns, biggest sleeve tats, and the biggest entertainment centers for watching cage fights. And there are those who are happy to take their money.
Daisy wrote:
First they demand that women make themselves small, timid, submissive, silent, etc.
Then the show contempt for women for being the things they hold up as true womanhood.
They are clueless with how crushingly evil their doctrine is.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/12/soft-effeminate-christianity-rothlmho.html
Dee, others….you should read this. its about the decline of investigative journalism. This was in the Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/forty-years-after-watergate-investigative-journalism-is-at-risk/2012/06/07/gJQArTzlLV_story.html
Read what is written below…does this not sound like blogging?
“Yet, for several months after the Watergate burglary in 1972, Woodward, Bernstein and their colleagues on the local news staff of The Post were alone on the story. We were ignored and doubted by the rest of the news media and most of the country, and under heavy fire from the Nixon administration and its supporters. It was a tense time for those of us working with Bob and Carl, with our credibility and our newspaper’s future on the line. We worried over every word of every story before putting it in the paper.”
Bill M wrote:
There’s some significant substance here, methinks. And ironic.
If the supposed essence of “biblical femininity” is submission, and the supposed essence of “biblical masculinity” is leadership, then when layMEN submit to the teachings and directives of their overseers, they are, in essence, exuding femininity — although supposedly for the cause of masculinity.
This does indeed create a division of classes within men who go to church — ordinary laymen, but who are feminized by unconditional submittal to their leaders — and the Übermensch overlords over them. (And I realize Übermensch does not exactly exempt me from Godwin’s Law.) How ironic is that? The overlords create the so-called feminized congregation that they themselves can rail against and be all overlordy about “fixing.”
Again with the human mediators inserting themselves as overlords between individual disciples and their Lord, and between communities of disciples and their Lord …
When will we learn? Pastors serve by showing compassionate care and role-modeling Christlikeness, not by being the sole discerners for other individuals or for the congregation, and thereby becoming dictators.
Oh! Look at this quote!
Woodward and Bernstein’s techniques were hardly original. But, propagated by “All the President’s Men,” they became central to the ethos of investigative reporting: Become an expert on your subject. Knock on doors to talk to sources in person. Protect the confidentiality of sources when necessary. Never rely on a single source. Find documents. Follow the money. Pile one hard-won detail on top of another until a pattern becomes discernible. Just a few years ago, Dana Priest of The Post used similar methods to reveal the CIA’s secret overseas prisons in which terrorism suspects were aggressively interrogated.
I wish I read that article when writing this article about CJ Mahaney and Deep Throat.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/12/05/when-it-comes-to-c-j-mahaney-what-the-evangelical-christian-church-can-learn-from-deep-throat-and-watergate/
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Let’s rephrase that a bit, with some idioms from Slaver’s Bay in Game of Thrones:
“If the supposed essence of ‘biblical femininity’ is Feeling the Whip and the supposed essence of ‘biblical masculinity’ is Holding the Whip…”
Christiane wrote:
You mean there are other members of the Godhead?
Gus wrote:
I understand C4 is actually a pretty safe explosive.
You’re probably thinking of straight nitroglycerin.
Or (even worse, though much less powerful) nitrogen tri-iodide.
Patti wrote:
No bikinis or boobage.
Bill M wrote:
And when you mix that with “The Man PENETRATES! COLONIZES! CONQUERS! PLANTS! The (little) Woman lies back and Accepts!”, you get some really bizarre (and probably accurate) church imagery.
(Roman Paterfamilias had total sexual rights over all his property including animate property.)
“What is desired in a man is loving-kindness” (Proverbs 19:22)
@ brad/futuristguy:
As a P.S. to this comment, I was part of a Christian men’s support group in the late 1980s and early 1990s. This was before the existence of Promise Keepers unleashed a flood of supposedly practical materials for men’s ministry, when most Christian publishers were trying to keep up with the demand. As I saw it at the time (and I was reviewing many books to compile annotated bibliographies), much of this was white-knuckling, rule-keeping, legalistic junk — or else was just pretty much a book report that synthesized the work of others and added a few supposedly fresh ideas to the mix.
So, in our pre-PK Christian men’s support group, we basically had nothing but the Bible and a very few relevant books, such as Gordon Dalbey’s *Healing the Masculine Soul*. And we had two basic questions to guide our quest for understanding and living out “masculinity”:
(1) What is Christlike masculinity?
(2) How is Jesus a role model for us as men?
And as I’m typing this, I’m reminded that we did not ask, What is BIBLICAL masculinity” but “CHRISTLIKE masculinity.” Above all else, we tied any understanding and practices to a concrete Person, not to some abstract theology. I learned far more about being a Christlike man from reading the four gospels repeatedly for a year, and listening to the experiences and questions of my peers, than I got out of Promise Keeper-related materials a few years later.
It seems to me that the more some theological camps seek to specify what BIBLICAL masculinity is, the farther away from CHRISTLIKE masculinity their systems stray.
So, ultimately, it feels like they’re asking the wrong question, and trying to find clues to a perfect and complete system between the lines of Scripture. But if we sought to see and engage with all people the ways that Jesus did, I don’t know that we’d even be asking about what “biblical masculinity” is — we men would be growing toward it because we were becoming more like Jesus Christ …
Daisy wrote:
Clicked on the link.
“I thought I had a most morbid imagination… but it appears I have not.”
Mara wrote:
Absolutely. Gender complementarians speak out of both sides of their mouths:
They demand that women behave like passive, weak, quiet, compliant little doormats, but at the same time, they despise those qualities, especially at the church wide level.
If they hate those qualities, they really ought to stop insisting that all women everywhere display them, in marriage, in jobs, in church, or where ever else.
Jesus had some of those qualities some of the time.
It’s therefore rather creepy that people who claim to follow Jesus repudiate some of the very traits Jesus himself possessed and created people to have.
Stan wrote:
The same applies to women.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Those are two pretty poor choices, I’ll with door number 3.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I find all this puzzling. I don’t approach Jesus or the Christian faith in terms of wondering how to be a woman.
My gender does not dictate to me how I view Jesus or try to live the faith, at least not on a conscious level.
Maybe part of the problem with the masculinity movements in the faith is that they are so very wrapped up in this stuff?
Why not just concentrate on being a Christ-like person, rather than specifically, a Christ-like man (or woman)?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Here’s the answer imo:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/robertcrosby/2012/06/the-emotional-jesus-his-ups-downs/#disqus_thread
As Christians, isn’t the whole point to know Jesus Christ?
It seems to me all this stuff is ME-centered. They’re trying to define and figure out who they are “as men”? Regardless of what qualities they tried to bring into it, I’d call it a waste of time.
When Peter tried to walk on water, he had to keep his eyes on Christ. We’re no different. Focusing on self is not the Christian life.
And, if you have to go to some kind of class to learn how to be something, how “authentic” is it?
The word authentic is now a slogan and has lost its meaning.
I hate marketing and salesmanship.
roebuck wrote:
I think they’re paintball guns. Because that’s what Authentic™ Men like–pretend danger, not real danger.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Maybe “male” and “female” are more like euphemisms. It’s really about control & authority, a pecking order, hierarchy.
Daisy wrote:
Sorry I didn’t make clear enough that those two questions were what we were asking as men 25+ years ago *in the midst of the secular men’s movement of the 1980s*. Back then, what Christian publishers were basically offering as books for “men’s ministry” were a couple books on family, finances, marriage and sex. Almost zero response to the deep and genuine questions with spiritual implications being asked by men in our society in that era. And many of the secular men’s movement questions were actually about the meaning of being human. Such as:
* Why is it so hard and not socially acceptable for men to show emotions?
* Why is transparency in our friendships so difficult?
* Why do we let competitiveness overtake collaboration?
So, anyway, our questions were framed in part in reaction to the times. But I think the *timeless and cross-culturally relevant answer* to the core questions for all people is indeed found in the essence of what it means to be human and looking to Jesus Christ as the embodiment of humanity as God intended, not just a masculine or feminine twist on it. In other words, being strong disciples as individuals plus connecting and serving together in community. Or, as you put it, “Why not just concentrate on being a Christ-like person, rather than specifically, a Christ-like man (or woman)?”
I see the hard-line complementarianism as being bound by culture and time. Which gets right into one of your other points:
The “modernist project,” whether for philosophy or theology, seems to be aiming for absolute precision of languages to describe concepts. It’s based on Enlightenment rationality and reasoning, and I think we see the results in the current hyper-complementarianism and hyper-calvinism. Is it fair to say all modernist projects have failed? I think so, because they rely too much on abstract thinking and analysis, and there is far more to being human than just I.Q.
There was a great cartoon in the 1990s that captured the essence of this failure. It showed two competing approaches to life. One slogan was “Answers to all your questions,” and sitting across from that person was someone with the slogan of “Questions to all your answers.” We’ve seen variations on that since. But the core issue is that when we try to specify detail far beyond what the Scriptures, we may sound like we have all the answers and that they’re “biblical,” but the practical working out of them just doesn’t work. To me, that’s one of the key indicators that patriarchal authoritarian complementarianism sends men and women, girls and boys, off on a tangent trajectory instead of toward Christ as the integration point and goal of our growth.
Victorious wrote:
A great article, and I find the comment by HUG of special relevance even now, though he wrote it 3 years ago:
Is it too late for me to enter the contest to choose a manly theme song? I nominate the theme from “Orgazmo” (a low-budget raunchy Mormon superhero comedy by the creators of South Park):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiXaT_1I-vw
@ brad/futuristguy:
I hope you didn’t take my post as a criticism of you. I was just using your comments as a spring board to think aloud about these topics. 🙂
dee wrote:
It is stunning. And it’s not about pastors having an interest in guns per se. Lots of people do. There are many pastors who serve in our armed forces. What is disturbing is the “real man” rhetoric combined with a message that is all about control. About the desired oppression of 52% of our population and the complete dismissal of their contribution to the faith.
These men (and a few women – very few women by comparison) sermonize on a violent faith. They seem to get off focussing on Old Testament destruction and the book of Revelation without reading the actual gospels themselves . They seem to desire the world to be bathed in fire and blood and look forward to a smiting and terrible deity. And I’d be surprised if any of the men in that photo have ever actually served in the armed forces – given what’s happening in places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan maybe they wouldn’t so keen to play soldier. Or maybe they would – that’s what’s truly disturbing.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
brad/futuristguy wrote:
In other news Brad is now channeling HUG. (insert smiley face here)
Daisy wrote:
No worries, Daisy … same here, springboards. It’s just I so rarely talk or write about men’s movement stuff these days that it takes a while to get back into it and I keep remembering other chunks of information. So, comments from you and others are spark recollections. And I’ve been trying to type at the speed of thinking. Which doesn’t exactly work, oh well.
Such as … 25 years ago, we (this particular men’s support group) not only framed our questions in terms of the times then and what our friends and the secular men’s movements were talking about, but much of our discussion addressed what may often prove to be still-missing issues among many of today’s Christian men … emotions, transparency, discernment, decision-making, passivity, aggression, courage, fruit of the Spirit and treating people with kindness. It’s almost like the culture created by certain of these contemporary theologies puts more burdens on men now than American culture did back then. Surely that’s an indicator of something toxic going on.
Anyway, none of this denies the reality of gender, but it suggests that attempting to integrate our definitions of being human around gender *first* puts the cart before the horse. Our identity is human before it is masculine or feminine — at least, that’s how I read the order of things in Genesis. Humanity powers the drive for identity, not gender.
And it’s important to note here that, over the years, I have had many friends wrestling with all sorts of gender identity issues. Focusing on the core question of “What does it mean to be human?” and on becoming Christlike as the core answer gives any and all of us a chance to grow — even if/while we still wrestle with aspects of gender …
Bill M wrote:
LOL … having studied dissent and dissidents and dystopian literature for a kazillion years, and having nearly entered a master’s program in Soviet studies, I keep wondering if HUG and I are twin sons of different mothers.
Jack wrote:
They will one day meet that deity. Some of them might find out about the smiting, terrible side of that deity. I think that deity tends to look rather poorly upon those who abuse His people.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
May I be so bold as to say the question should really be, “What is it to be like Christ?”, dropping the gender altogether.
Kemi wrote:
I have no problems with that question, and think it brings us both to the answer and to the Answerer. And I think that’s the most crucial feature. Sometimes I wonder if what hardline complementarianism is trying to do is bring us to a precise system, and not to a Person — although I suppose they’d argue against my interpretation of what they are doing.
Anyway, the question as I’d worded it was specifically what we were asking in the late 1980s and early 1990s, given the times we were in and trying to figure out what to do … and I believe it got us moving in the right direction.
@ Jack:
Good comment. Interesting.
Mae wrote:
Hubby is very right. Lyudmila Pavlichenko was a Russian lady sniper greatly feared by the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front (1941-1945). Credited with 309 kills she is regarded as the deadliest female sniper in all of history. She was the real deal. The bozos featured in the pic at the top of Dee’s article are pretenders and nothing more.
Rick Warren: Too Many Christians Don’t Love the Church
http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warren-too-many-christians-dont-love-the-church-152196/
It appears to me that a lot of churches and preachers are using and abusing the average Pew Potatoes, which is why so many are dropping out.
In the 70s, there was a … thing called Fascinating Womanhood (with its corollary Fascinating Girlhood). Shortcut memory trigger: Saran Wrap couture.
That prescriptive teaching screwed up more women and Christian homes than you can imagine.
I have a feeling that this Real Men stuff is doing to same damage to men in our day.
Both of them lead to dis-integration of the person and turn the person into a role and and object for use.
Both of these teachings–for men or women–are from the pit of hell. How can you have a relationship with an actor? How can you be a real person when you are always enacting a role? How can you relate to God, Who is Himself interpersonal in the Holy Trinity?
These movements are despicable because they ruin both those who proclaim them and those over-mastered by them.
HUG and Eagle
You two deserve each other! Two comments not approved but they were funny. 🙂
@ PaJo:
I remember about the Saran Wrap solution to marital bliss. You were supposed to greet your husband after his long day at the door with nothing on but Saran Wrap. Even back then and a sweet young thing I knew they were nuts. And you are right. This is the male version of that weirdness.
Daisy wrote:
Better known as the financiers. They will change their tune when they loose the cash flow, particularly of the baby boomers.
Muff Potter wrote:
You give me hope.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I love dystopian fiction. It gets my mind off the current state of dystopia in the church.
Virgil Maro wrote:
Wish I saw more of that in today’s pulpits.
http://www.cmt.com/videos/michael-ray/1266058/real-men-love-jesus.jhtml
Real men love Jesus by Michael Ray.
Good heavens, so many excellent comments, where to start. As I was reading all of these, three things popped into my head:
1. Many men who are attracted to evangelical,complementarian Christianity do so because they’re very insecure, and it’s the ultimate ego boost for God to (supposedly) say that just because they’re men, they’re in charge. Take that you scary feminists! God says that I’m The Man! These are the ones who pay lip-service to worshipping Christ, but really worship Paul and fail to read Paul in the context of what he was talking about and fail to read him through the lenses of Christ. It makes a difference.
2. Can someone give me the chapter and verse where Christ said that those who live by the sword… are totally authentic, awesome dudes?
3. Does anyone remember Mr. Manly with his Manly Manual? A radio station where I grew up used to play some of his material, which was hysterical. He’d give a situation, have the listener turn to p.1298 of the Manly Manual for the solution. It was always a disaster, but at least the woman in question would know what kind of a manly man he really was. Anyway, the guys in the photo remind me of Mr. Manly.
Uncle Dad wrote:
Fantastic! *applause*
Jack wrote:
The Gospel According to Warhammer 40K?
“IN THE GRIMDARK FUTURE, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE WAR!”
“WAAAAAAUGH! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!”
(And I say this as a veteran of The Gospel According to Jack Chick, The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, and Christians For Nuclear War. Once you’ve been introduced to “that smiting and terrible deity”, i.e. Christ as Cosmic Monster, you will never be completely free of that image.)
patriciamc wrote:
The guys in the photo remind me of this Dr Demento classic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psxBdHY8n68&feature=youtu.be&t=55s
P.S. Is this the Mr Manly on YouTube (search string “mr manly”)?
@ Uncle Dad:
“…We’re all scared, Bobby. We’re all scared.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
HA! That was funny!!
i don’t really come here and comment all that much just read most of the time so when i read this…even just the title i immediately thought of guys who follow the whole no shave november thing because it helps them feel like a man!?! wait what??? if you need to grow facial hair to feel like a man IMO you are doing it wrong. the title or rather part of the title ‘authentic manhood’ really catches the eye and conveys something even worse though i think a few other commenters have hit on it in a more friendly way than i ever would and that is some men simply do not know how to be men(most likely because they had no father or father figure to look to to gain guidance) and have a completely irrational sub-conscious fear of humans who have this thing called a vagina or as they are properly known women. BTW whoever mods please feel free to edit that word as some may find it offensive or completely delte this comment 🙂
He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to carry an AK 47 selective fire (semi-automatic or automatic) gas operated, chrome-lined bore and iron sighted zeroed in assault rifle replete with spare magazines.
@ dee:
“The Sensuous Woman,” by “J.” (a 1970’s book I found on my parents’ shelf) mentions a couple who used Saran Wrap as impromptu birth control. Even at 12 or so, I remember being appalled.
Uncle Dad wrote:
Perfect!!
Max wrote:
The covenants are written by lawyers or vetted by them. They will preach the sin of lawsuits while using lawyers on the front end to gain power and protect themselves. These are not men of character and integrity.
@ Daisy:
The first time I heard of any sort of “signing” a paper to join church was out of Saddleback in the 90’s. I think it was very different because mega’s like that are happy if you sit in a pew and give money. They are not as big into tracking because they can’t. But I know the idea was picked up for people who joined other megas. It was more about attending some classes that would hook you into church groups and outlined what the church believed, etc. There would be a section on polity, most likely. Then people would sign a page in a booklet for the class and turn it in. (Many companies used to use this method…read the policy handbook, sign last page and turn into HR. People were used to it so rarely questioned it in the honeymoon phase)
It was nothing like what we are seeing today but the groundwork for acceptance was laid. The idea back then was that people would be more attentive when they have signed something. It was more psychological. However, today we regularly click on “terms of agreement” without reading them so the progression has been to up the game.
Now, to get them out of your life you have to officially resign from the church with certified letters, etc.
But Warren was in the forefront of the idea from what I can tell. Whenever I see an article like what was linked, usually there is something behind it like dwindling numbers.
Mara wrote:
Yes. And anyone who thinks this is about protecting women needs to have their eyes opened. There is a caste system element to this people cannot imagine. What they perceive as the “weaker sex” that they protect is often the one that is thrown to the curb/blamed when it is most convenient. It is very subtle. They end up practicing a form of social Darwinism. It is easier to make women into the “trouble makers” at church. It is easier to dismiss their concerns. When you believe all women are more easily deceived it is easier to dismiss concerns.
On the front end, the followers buy into the “protection, care and responsibility” message of the caste system but it rarely works out that way in real life. It is ingrained to not respect or see as equal the one on the receiving end of such need. They do this without ever realizing it.
I have often argued this doctrine hurts men as much as women in the long run because of what it does to their thinking. It would be best if they modeled Jesus Christ instead. But the most important message is that women don’t have to go along with it.
PaJo wrote:
I love this! Very succinct! “Roles” are from the pit of hell.
OK, here’s an idea. To join our hipster church, you just have to install our app. It links you to sermon videos, addresses for small groups, online giving, etc. Installation is quick and easy.
But buried in the terms and conditions is all the church discipline and submission language. And the commitment to tithe. People will skip over it, like they always do, in click “INSTALL.”
@ NotARealPerson:
Too funny. I wonder how they would feel if women joined in on the no shave November?
GSD wrote:
You should start one of those companies which advise pastors. They will buy it in droves.
NotARealPerson wrote:
Doesn’t strict Islam require mandatory beards on men?
I remember stories of Taliban religious police and their “beard test” — the beard had to be long enough to show when grasped in a fist; if not, the man would be beaten or worse on the spot.
Daisy wrote:
Warren speaks truth. Unfortunately, finding the genuine Church amongst what we call “church” is becoming increasingly difficult. Much of the religious system we see is not the hope of the world, nor the vessel through which God works out His plan! We must, indeed, love the genuine but avoid the counterfeit. We should not be shamed by Christian celebrities to give our lives to just anything under the umbrella of “church”; it’s not a matter of “learning” to love the real Church – when you experience it, you know it and love it. Pray that God will reveal where the genuine Body of Christ meets for worship in your area; it’s not in just any church building these days nor following prominent ministers and ministries. You need to “vet” them by the Holy Spirit before you join yourself to them; your spiritual life depends on it.
Max wrote:
I am thinking Warren’s words could be spoken to himself and the bulk of modern church leaders so-called and self-proclaimed. They need to learn to love the Church, the true Bride, stop slandering, abusing, shunning, lording it over, amassing wealth from and breaking up the true fellowship of the Bride.
In short, stop what you’re doing entirely, step off the stages, out of the spotlights, turn off the klieg lights, shut down the publishing houses–just shut up, Rick and all the rest, we’ve long gotten past the day where we can stand the church being but two body parts: a loud, blasphemous mouth and a large mass of inert butts.
GSD wrote:
There’s a new mega-church nativity play app. All you need to do to download it is to click on IN STALL.
Lydia wrote:
Since when has real life ever been a factor in the doctrines of ideologues, both religious and secular?
dee wrote:
I ran across some fascinating thoughts on dypstopia by Erika Gottlieb in her academic book, Dystopian Fiction East and West: Universe of Terror and Trial. One of her premises is that for Westerners, dystopia represents the worst things that they could imagine happening. For those from Eastern and Central Europe and the former Soviet Union, dystopia represents the worst that they endured historically. Maybe that’s why some of us who are survivors of abuse gravitate toward dystopian fiction, in part because to us, toxic systems are not hypothetical.
And this kind of fiction deals with the realities of how malignant ideas infect individuals and then have their outworkings in society. Much to learn from this in demonstrating the dynamics of personal power and super-spiritualizing of ideas in the Church! Maybe The Hunger Games or the Maze Runner series will give someone a moment of revelation that removes the blinders about the tainted theological aquarium in which they themselves been swimming …
Gottlieb also starts out her book with this statement: “Dystopian fiction is a post-Christian genre.” She goes on to talk about how the modernist era “salvation” is about the individual in relation to the deity and freedom from the guilt of sin, but the post-modern, post-Christian era issue is social “salvation” and freedom from the crazed rulership that creates an unjust society.
Scary, how that seems to apply to contemporary theologians who promote their systems as utopia and the perfect-and-biblical, right-and-righteous social order — when in fact they transmogrify ministry into a divisive dystopia that turns the people in the pews into different species who end up at odds with one another … men versus women, marrieds versus singles, leaders versus laypeople …
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Districts 2 & 3 against Districts ll & 12
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There is not just one kind of “strict” Islam, any more than there is just one kind of “strict” Christianity. Customs pertaining to men’s facial hair vary a lot from one Muslim culture to another. Meanwhile, other religions which do encourage or require facial hair on men include Orthodox Judaism, some forms of Orthodox Christianity (at least for priests; the Old Believers expand this to all men), and the Amish (for married men).
dee wrote:
My wife belongs to the never-shave group! Shaving is an American custom, I think. (Assuming we’re talking about pits and legs here!)
Mara wrote:
… and then 13 gets everyone else to fight the Capitol so the Big Coin can take over …
dee wrote:
You can tell what the BIG worries of a culture and time are by reading their Dystopias.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
I don’t think they’re paintball markers. Military-look paintball markers have the paintball hopper mounted above the gun itself and a line to the compressed air canister and I can’t see any fittings for either. Even with the hopper removed, there would still be some sort of visible fitting atop the receiver.
If they’re not paintball, those could be either civilian semi-auto versions, non-firing replicas, or Airsofts (which would still have a magazine for the airsoft pellets). Or these ManlyMen were “fellowshipping” on a full-auto range in Nevada or Arizona.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I think so, the voice sounds familiar. The radio pieces back in the day were a lot funnier.
Your link was pretty funny too.
Max wrote:
This is brilliant.
Max wrote:
That Warren resorts to shaming as motivation is a striking admission his system is bankrupt. Been there, done that, in the future when someone browbeats me to get me in their door, then I ask why bother.
Max wrote:
You’re starting to grow on me, Max.
Kemi wrote:
It comes down to servant-leadership, which is why I’m just about fed up with anyone or any group which is constantly pushing gender roles.
They are being “servants”, putting the first last, the last first.
Problem is, servant, to them, means leader, unless you’re a woman, and then servant means housekeeper or something.
“Washing the feet is on par with teaching the word!” It sounds so humble. Except no one washes feet anymore. Jesus’ example no longer has cultural relevance, so we’ve dispensed with His point entirely, or worse, twisted it to justify authority.
*slow clap*
brad/futuristguy wrote:
This. Exactly this.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I was suspicious of her from the get go.
So, is being a real man, and a follower of JC, require I learn how to use a sub machine gun??
You know, there are those verses about how JC tells us to take up swords and show how manly we are!
@ dee:
Thanks for sending him my way. Wish I could do more for him. Such incredible injustices!
Tree wrote:
I always bring this up with people talk like this:
http://www.amazon.com/John-Eldredge-Discovering-Secret-3-4-2001/dp/B00HTJOHCC/ref=sr_1_3/182-6828035-7175514?ie=UTF8&qid=1450020406&sr=8-3&keywords=john+eldredge+wild+at+heart
I’m pretty sure this book had influence on Driscoll and all.
Though I liked the book, myself. It helped me.
However, I’ve seen the damage that it has done to some men.
There is a freedom in Christ that we all need.
But some of these men have hijacked this, genderdized it, and maked it fleshly.
Mara wrote:
Made it fleshy. sheesh.
Law Prof wrote:
LP, that’s the kindest thing anyone has said to me in a while! In my neck of the woods, I get shunned by church folks for talking like I do on TWW … but I do it anyway, sensing a leading from the Lord to do so. I was young and now am old. In my lifetime, I’ve seen the “church” transition into something that does not resemble the “Church” any longer. As you note in an upstream comment, the “Body” in many places is comprised of only “two body parts: a loud, blasphemous mouth and a large mass of inert butts.” Unless the butts get wise to the scheme, the loud mouths will continue to rule.
Max wrote:
Dead straight, Max, you kept speaking it out to people, maybe some of them someday will remember your words and “get it”. Don’t expect people to listen, don’t expect them to thank you; you’re tearing down their idols. You have a lot in common with Gideon, and they wanted to kill him. I was young once but now am on the lee side of 50 myself. I’ve watched church go to pieces and most “Christian” groups generally fall apart. I can’t seem to find a place anymore where some little sociopath isn’t trying to make it all about him whilst claiming it’s all about Jesus. Kind of sad. God bless you, Max.
@ dee:
Wow. Just wow, Dee. ((()))
Tina wrote:
I gotta echo Tina’s wow.
NotARealPerson wrote:
Clearly none of these guys ever heard of Sitting Bull & Crazy Horse…….
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zooey111 wrote:
Maybe they have. Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse lost!
I think about the term ‘Authentic Manhood’ and I wonder what was wrong with just being ‘a person made in the image and likeness of God’?
If that wasn’t ‘good enough’ to define someone, then adding ‘authentic’ to a description of a person’s sex seems rather sad.
Christiane wrote:
They doth protest too much, they try too hard. They are compensating for deep seated insecurities. It is like the person who “earns” their “doctorate” from a diploma mill, they almost invariably list themselves (redundantly and naively) as “Dr. Earnest Sham, Ph.D.”, they include a picture of themselves on their bio in full doctoral regalia, they’re desperate to prove up the validity of that which they know in their hearts is about as truthful as a carnival barker’s badinage with passing patrons.
Law Prof wrote:
I have actually wondered if these boys get “Authentic Manhood” certificates to hang on their walls and show off when they attend these conferences/activities.
@ Christiane:
Yeah. I wish they would focus on things like being emotionally mature grownups instead. But i suspect they would freak out at the very idea.
Christiane wrote:
Ah, but according to at least some of these folks, women need not apply. (They are derivative, somehow, made from a man who was made in the image of God.)
Nancy2 wrote:
I think they have that covered with the tats and the John Calvin beards.
Even before I read your commentary about the picture I found it so funny I nearly spit my coffee out on the computer screen. This is truly authentically hilarious.
Muff Potter wrote:
Ideology can never be permitted to bow to Reality.
When I read about Dr Robert Lewis I check out his relationship with Leadership Network and its co-founder in 1984 Bob Buford.
I am linking to a 2009 LN document. Lewis is mentioned in the red boxes on pages 1 and 5.
http://media.leadnet.org/blog-content/leadnet/advance/feb09s2p.pdf
“Catalyzing Change Agents
About 30 years ago, Buford pioneered Leadership Network and began to influence the influencers. He invested his time to train the trainers. He sought to create learning communities that might foster mutual learning among high capacity leaders. He did this early on with men like Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and Robert Lewis.” Ed Stetzer
http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2014/april/catalyst-that-fostered-movement.html?paging=off
GSD wrote:
Remember Dilbert?
When he skipped over, clicked INSTALL for the latest rev of Windows, and found out the hard way he was now indentured as Towel Boy in Bill Gates’ smart-mansion for all Eternity?
(Then the smart-mansion smashed through the wall to get him — “RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!”)
Zla’od wrote:
Does this have anything to do with the buzz about “how to make a condom from Saran Wrap and a rubber band” I remember from around that time?
Susanc wrote:
BUZZWORD BINGO!