Spotlight – It Takes a Community to Abuse a Child: Looking at Fellowship Bible Church and TGC

 “If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one.” Spotlight link

hintergrund-583
link

A personal experience with a church and a pedophile.

Before we started this blog, we were involved in a situation in which a group of us confronted church leaders regarding the way they handled a sex abuse scandal. A number of young teen boys were severely sexually abused (the details are pretty horrendous, the worst I have heard.) A couple of pastors had received a report, as told to us by a young man and his family, a year previous to the arrest of the pedophile who was a seminary student. This report was blown off by the pastors who later denied they received the report. 

Be that as it may, a year later this despicable pedophile was discovered abusing a boy by the police. He was tried and convicted and sent away for 13 years. At a meeting that I attended when this all came to light, the youth pastors told us all not to try to discover the names of the boys (there were a number of them) since they needed their privacy which sounded reasonable to me. We were assured that the boys would receive counseling, which again sounded reasonable to me.

Except the counseling never happened. We found this out a year later when the parents of the boy who made the original report confided in a small group of us. Not only that, the boys allegedly received little attention. When we asked that the church leadership investigate this, we were appalled at how a couple of leaders questioned the boys. "Didn't you know what you did was wrong?" "Why didn't you report this to the church or your parents?"

Of course, our group was made out to be the bad guys for questioning the leadership. The only good that came out of the situation is the church was forced to finally offer counseling to the boys – over one year after the church leadership said the boys were getting counseling. Oh yeah, the leadership said the police told them not to talk about what had happened due to the *investigation.* Consequently, the boys were alienated from people who could have been of support to them.

Complicity and Spotlight

There is no question that some in the hierarchy of the Catholic church were complicit in concealing the sex abuse. For example, Cardinal Law was transferred to the Vatican after he resigned during the aftermath of the Boston Globe exposé. The allegations were numerous. Law had transferred credibly accused priest from parish to parish. It was obvious that a number of people outside the hierarchy were aware of the problem but kept quiet in order to maintain the status quo.

However, it ran even deeper than that. One of the Spotlight team members admitted to receiving a list of names of abusive priests years before but had sidelined it. Perhaps the most poignant statement in the movie was made by a lawyer representing some of the victims who said:  “If it takes a village to raise a child, and it takes a village to abuse one.”

The village, in this instance, consisted of priests, friends of the church, church leadership, attorneys, the media, and even members of some of the parishes who decided it was better to keep quiet than to stand up for the children.

Complicity upon the part of the village

In my former church, complicity was the name of the game. Not only were the pastors and elders to blame for responding inappropriately (in our opinion), but members of the church bear some of the blame. Let's start with me. In spite of my background in monitoring abusive families, I took the word of the pastors that they would "do the right thing". Did I ask the pastors if the boys were doing well? Did I ask if they received counseling?  I learned a great deal from that experience and will never fully trust church leaders again.

Many people in that church took the attitude of a woman who said to me "God has not told me that I should be concerned about this situation." It is a whole lot easier to play the game so that one is not labeled a troublemaker as Deb and I were. However, those folks are just as complicit as the pastors if they decided to ignore a group of abused boys or, if they merely believed that prayer was sufficient. The words of one church volunteer still ring in my ears – "Well, we prayed for them each week."

After the Karen Hinkley debacle at The Village Church, I was personally stunned that no one outside of Matt Chandler and another leader apologized to Karen. So many of the members spouted off about Karen's responsibility to stay married to her kiddie porn loving husband. Not one of them ever owned up to their complicity in this debacle. In this case, it truly took The Village to abuse one hurting woman and that Village hasn't responded.

All of us who sit in our churches and keep silent, refusing to ask the necessary questions when children are being abused, are complicit in the abuse. Without putting church leadership in the hot seat, abuse will continue, and many leaders will continue to cover it up. It is the responsibility of each and every one of us to hold our churches accountable.

My thoughts on how church members should respond to the Fellowship Bible Church statement to insure that they are not complicit in an abuse situation.

Yesterday, we reported on a lawsuit filed against Fellowship Bible Church due to the rape of a 3 year old child by a teen volunteer. The volunteer was convicted, so this is not one of those "he said/she said" which is adored by recalcitrant churches. Now FBC has issued a statement. I will reprint the entire statement here assuming that FBC wants this statement to be read in its entirety. Please read the statement carefully, remembering my situation at a former church that I discussed at the beginning of this post. I have bolded certain sections of this statement for discussion.

Fellowship Family,

I am writing you and all the members of Fellowship about a very serious matter. You may have seen news reports over the past 24 hours about a lawsuit that was filed late yesterday arising from an outrageous crime—a sexual assault—that was committed on our premises against a young child in our congregation.

We are outraged that this heinous crime occurred. It came to our attention when the victim’s family advised our staff, and we immediately reported it to the Tennessee Department of Children’s Services and that same morning contacted officers from the Brentwood Police Department. (The authorities asked for our cooperation in keeping the matter confidential so that they could complete their investigation, and, of course, we agreed). I can tell you that the alleged perpetrator is a young teen and the child of a volunteer teacher in our children’s ministry, and both parent and child were immediately removed from their volunteer positions in our church pending the police investigation.

Toward the end of the investigation, a formal delinquency charge of a sexual nature was subsequently filed by the authorities, and at that time we met with all the parents of children in the classroom where this young teen was volunteering. The juvenile status of both the victim and the alleged perpetrator preclude anyone from identifying them or details of the case.

In our cooperation with authorities and our communications with parents, there has been nothing to suggest that this was more than a one-time, isolated event.

We have also endeavored to work with the victim’s family, offering counseling and any other assistance they might find helpful. They have chosen, instead, to file a lawsuit.

Fellowship is committed to supporting victims of abuse in our community. We take any allegation of abuse very seriously. We have no tolerance for anyone who seeks to harm a child in a physical, sexual, or emotional way.

I am distressed that statements in the news media, quoting from the lawsuit, have been so erroneous—that we denied anything had happened, that we claimed the victim had “lied” and urged the family not to pursue criminal charges, that we don’t take child safety seriously and have no proper policies and procedures, and that we sought to hide the truth from other families. All of these statements are untrue.

Please know that we are personally sickened by this crime and will strive to do all in our power as leaders to prevent this grotesque criminal behavior from occurring again.

I want to make sure that we answer any questions you may have, to the extent we can.

Please know we love these families, and we love God’s church.

Bill Wellons
Teaching Pastor & Organizational Leader
On behalf of the Elders

1. Find out if the church did report the crime to authorities when they say they did. Ask when the parents reported it to the police. Compare the dates. These records are public. Do not "take their word for it".

2. This incident took place in 2014. It is now almost 2016. Was the church supposed to be totally silent all this time?

3. The church obviously was not silent. Why did they report the incident to all the families of the children in that one classroom if they were supposed to be silent? Wasn't that teen running around the church in general? Could there be other victims who have not spoken up?

4.The church states that there has been "nothing to suggest that this is more than an isolated, one time event." Oh really? Has the church investigated the statistics regarding the average number of molestations by a pedophile? This statement, in and of itself, speaks to the dangerous naivety of the pastoral staff. They need to be trained in how to keep children safe from predators.

Molesters of boys (at the time of their arrest) have molested over 150 victims. Read that again and contemplate that fact.

Yet, somehow this pastor knows there are no more victims? That is worrisome.

From Boz Tchividjian and GRACE

Abel Harlow Child Molestation Prevention Study

This study found that pedophilia molesters average 12 child victims and 71 acts of molestation. An earlier study by Dr. Abel found that out of 561 sexual offenders there were over 291,000 incidents totaling over 195,000 total victims. These are enough victims to fill 2 ½ Superdomes! This same study found that only 3% of these sexual offenders have a chance of getting caught.

From Parents for Megan's Law

“In his study of 561 sex offenders, Dr. Gene Abel found pedophiles who targeted young boys outside the home committed the greatest number of crimes with an average of 281.7 acts …m molesters who targeted girls within the family committed an average of 81.3 acts…

This should raise your eyebrows.

The typical offender is male, begins molesting by age 15, engages in a variety of deviant behavior, and molests an average of 117 youngsters, most of whom do not report the offense.
– Dr. Gene Abel in a National Institute of Mental Health Study

• The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment.
– Dr. Ann Burges, Dr. Nicholas Groth, et al. in a study of imprisoned offenders

Pedophiles have a strong, almost irresistible, desire to have sex with children. The average pedophile molests 260 victims during their lifetime. Over 90% of convicted pedophiles are arrested again for the same offense after their release from prison.

 Many clinical settings currently are witnessing a dramatic increase in the number of adolescent offenders who have committed sexually aggressive acts against other children.
– Conte, Jon R., 1986

5. The pastor claims to have offered counseling to this victim, along with other help. Ask some hard questions. What kind of counseling? Was the church willing to pay for it? Which counselors? What other kind of help did they offer? My former church claimed to have offered counseling and did not actually do so until we confronted the issue over a year later. 

6. The pastor appears to imply that the family filed a lawsuit after the church did everything right. Right? I find this statement a little hard to believe. This is a family that was very involved in their church for 12 years when this incident happened. I believe that the leadership handled this situation in such a way that the family felt a lawsuit was the only way to get their attention. There is definitely more to this story, and I suppose we will hear about it at trial if this isn't settled outside of court.

7. The church makes a bad move with the line that begins with "I'm distressed". They claim they never said the child lied about the rape, right? But now they are claiming that all of these statements made by the family in the lawsuit are *untrue.* In other words, they lied! Seriously bad juju here. Advice to pastors: stay away from words like *lie*, *libel*, etc. They tend to come back and slap you upside the head.

Well, what about the lawsuit? $35 Million? Aren't they in it for the money?

One person on our blog questioned why these folks needed so much money. This statement demonstrates a probable lack of understanding as to what is going on here. It is also a way to appear to be complicit with the abuse that occurred. Let's go back to the movie Spotlight for an explanation. The RCC was settling a number of claims outside the court system prior to the exposé. These payouts were subject to a confidentiality clause. There was some indication that there were settlements involving 20 priests. One settlement was for @$20,000. Let's assume a number of these payments were occurring.

The RCC was not at all threatened by these measly sums of money. In fact, it was business as usual, and the priests kept on offending. It wasn't until the story broke and great attorneys like Jeff Anderson started suing the church that things began to change. There is an estimated 100,000 victims with settlements of $2.2 billion in the United States alone.

Guess when the RCC started paying attention? When they started to sell off properties and close schools to pay the victims. Today, the Vatican is desperately trying to make significant changes regarding how they deal with abuse. But it took courageous victims, an independent media, as well as lawyers suing the RCC out the wazoo.

I believe in supporting victims and their families. We know this child was victimized. Denizens of The Wartburg Watch also know that there is a serious and huge problem with child sex abuse in the evangelical church. Ask yourselves a question. Assuming this family used to love their church, why would they sue it for such a large sum? They, too, have been initiated into the world of the child sex abuse with its concomitant horrors. Perhaps they now understand that a little payout from a settlement will not make the problem any better in the evangelical church as a whole. So, they are going for the sting.

I bet that evangelical church leaders would be on their knees praying that they wouldn't get hit with a $35 million lawsuit and maybe, just maybe they will then take this problem seriously. Goodness knows that the gospel bros have shown not much more than an occasional "Gee, child sex abuse sucks." But they still get together with those in ministries with a horrendous record of child sex abuse.

A statement from a member of The Gospel Coalition Council.

FBC is a member of The Gospel Coalition (TGC). So are SGM churches. I know who said the following statement but I will be nice, just this once. This is regarding CJ Mahaney. This council member denies that he knew anything about these lawsuits until recently but doesn't believe them anyway.

I may be a naive friend, but I believed him then and believe him now. Dr. Akin had no reluctance to have him speak at the conference, nor following his preaching for us did several other highly reputable Christian leaders: John Piper, Bruce Ware, Mark Dever, Wayne Grudem and Thabiti Anyabwile, to name a few who invited C. J. to preach. I hold each of these men in the highest regard and would never for one moment categorize them as those who would overlook serious allegations in order to cover up evil in any form.

In the same document, this individual said that he trusts TGC's Council to vet their members. I guess he is overlooking Mark Driscoll, who was beloved by most of The Gospel Coalition Council. The Gospel Coalition has not once posted a story by one of the victims of SGM. The celebs all visit CJ Mahaney's church: men like John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Mark Dever, etc. I wonder if any of them ever wonder about those who have been abused. There is no question, by their actions, they have dismissed all of the victims of abuse and have embraced their BFF. How gospelly.

Churches which band together with churches that hide sex abuse are complicit.

Each and every church that is a member of TGC has a spiritual obligation to investigate whether TGC truly cares about those who are abused at member churches. How can anyone sleep at night knowing they are deliberately partnering churches which cover up child sex abuse? I guess once elect, always elect is a great soporific. It truly takes a community to abuse a child.

Report a TGC Church

This probably won't go anywhere, but it appears anyone can fill out a form to report a church which is a member of TGC and is involved in injustice. So even you can report a church to The Gospel Coalition.

4. Report a church that doesn't align with TGC's Foundation Documents. If you find a church that doesn't seem to be in alignment with TGC, we ask that you'd let us know. You can do so by clicking the “Report” link next to each listing. We value your input since TGC is not able to personally review each church in the directory.

Here is a link to the form to report a church to The Gospel Coalition. Here is a link to the page on which you can see whether the church is a member of TGC. Let us know if you fill out a form and get a response.

Comments

Spotlight – It Takes a Community to Abuse a Child: Looking at Fellowship Bible Church and TGC — 167 Comments

  1. Here is a link to the form to report a church to The Gospel Coalition. Here is a link to the page on which you can see if the church is a member of TGC. Let us know if you fill out a form and get a response.

    Also let the Deebs know if you experience any reprisals.

    Internal reporting has been used before to identify dissidents for reprisals. The USSR, its imitators, and a lot of nasty business corporations raised such self-identification of enemies to an art form.

  2. Molesters of boys, at the time of their arrest, have molested over 150 victims. Read that again and contemplate that fact.

    Yet, somehow this pastor knows there are no more victims?

    Speshul Direct Revelation from GAWD?

  3. I will say this, TGC did in fact “report” the words of a sex abuse victim from SGM… http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit

    However, clearly, context and empathy, let alone Christlike love, are sorely lacking:
    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/

    https://revchrismoles.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/but-what-about-proverbs-1817/

    And those who have actually spoken to victims or read their perspectives, or even considered the actual court documentation and evidence are brushed aside by the big names at TGC/GTY/T4G, etc., because correct theology apparently trumps actually being Christ-like.
    http://mattbredmond.com/2013/06/07/the-religious-leaders-and-the-least-of-these-in-the-sgm-scandal/

    Just glad God always leaves a remnant. This whole mess is wickedness, wickedness, wickedness. Pride and arrogance. Healing could have begun a long time ago, but business as usual Christianity prefers peace even if there is none. It has been and is ongoing.
    http://luthermatic.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-crime-of-partiality_28.html

  4. I firmly believe that an assortment of perverts are finding refuge in today’s “village” we call church because they are attracted by a soothing “You’re OK the way you are; kick back and relax” message ringing from American pulpits. Without an anointed pulpit, we have little Holy Spirit conviction flowing into the pew. An emphasis for ministries to be culturally-relevant is bringing a cross-section of our sick culture to the village; many walk in with demonic spirits which are unhindered by the cute ineffective preaching/teaching they sit under. Pedophiles can hide in the open. In former days, sermons scared the hell out of folks and they could find no refuge in church unless they repented of their sin. Now, hell visits the church regularly and freely. The hedge is down and the enemy is walking in unchallenged. We need prophets who will point a convicting finger in the face of sin, bring God back in the house, and send evil-doers to their knees or packing. I’m getting tired of ministries taking the name of God in vain (it is vanity to be called Christian and act like the world). I’m sick to my soul when children are abused in a village that should teach them about the love of Jesus.

  5. @ Melody:
    Yep-their belief that their BFF was fine, they didn’t believe the victims and, oh yeah, child abuse sucks when it happens outside of our clique.

  6. “Please know we love these families, and we love God’s church.”

    TGC love-bombing. A classic.

    I remember hearing something like that from a Mars Hill Church community leader directed at me–we love you both–while he facilitated his daughter’s adultery and unbiblical divorce.

    This move as old as sin. Satan is an angel of light. Saying you love while doing the opposite–e.g. essentially publicly suggesting the “beloved” are liars–is destructive. Some may even call it abusive. Just saying.

  7. I remain appalled that they continue to delete any and all negative comments on their fb spotlight post, but say am not surprised. I think before you graduate seminary they must pull you aside for a course in how to “spin” annnything.

  8. Exactly. And according to the lawsuit’s allegations, guess who got told they should move campuses? Hint: Not the perpetrator who pled guilty’s family. But they love both families. Of course. ‘Scuse me while I puke over here. Truly disgusting.

    @ Divorce Minister:

  9. Thank you for this dee! Silence is complicity:

    “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
    ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer ~

  10. Thanks as always for your insight, Dee.

    Like I hinted at on Twitter, your point #6 in response to their statement is what jumped out at me on seeing this. If all they (the church) say is true (and it does sound good), why is the family still suing them, AFTER justice was served? The subtle implication in the statement is that the family is truly trying to tear down the innocent “God’s house” for money.

    I just find that hard to believe.

    They already had their day in court, and justice was served. The only way this makes sense (unless they really just want that money – always a possibility, but I find it unlikely here) is if the family has deemed that there’s unsatisfactory safeguarding of that church’s children. So the options are seeing the family as money-grabbers, or the church likely has serious issues with the protection of children. The church has of course painted them as money-grabbers, without actually saying so.

    My instincts are usually “follow the money”, but I’m not so sure about that here, given how churches tend to be with these crimes.

  11. From the post: “… churches that hide sex abuse …”
    When Sandusky came to light, Malcolm Gladwell wrote, “In Plain View – How child molesters get away with it,” for The New Yorker, http://bit.ly/1PxWn07

  12. Melody wrote:

    And those who have actually spoken to victims or read their perspectives, or even considered the actual court documentation and evidence are brushed aside by the big names at TGC/GTY/T4G, etc., because correct theology apparently trumps actually being Christ-like.

    Purity of Ideology, Comrade,
    Purity of Ideology.

  13. Max wrote:

    We need prophets who will point a convicting finger in the face of sin, bring God back in the house, and send evil-doers to their knees or packing.

    Like Fred Phelps?

  14. Max wrote:

    Without an anointed pulpit, we have little Holy Spirit conviction flowing into the pew.

    And without an anointed pew, we have little Holy Spirit conviction flowing into the pulpit.

  15. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    We need prophets who will point a convicting finger in the face of sin, bring God back in the house, and send evil-doers to their knees or packing.
    Like Fred Phelps?

    Well, I do believe both in the existence of, and the need for, prophets. But I haven’t time to explain why before work (it being 8:37 am here in Blighty).

  16. Muff Potter wrote:

    Thank you for this dee! Silence is complicity:

    “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
    ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer ~

    Amen!!

  17. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Max wrote:
    We need prophets who will point a convicting finger in the face of sin, bring God back in the house, and send evil-doers to their knees or packing.
    Like Fred Phelps?
    Well, I do believe both in the existence of, and the need for, prophets. But I haven’t time to explain why before work (it being 8:37 am here in Blighty).

    But do you know who Fred Phelps was? He certainly was not an annointed anything.

  18. Max wrote:

    The hedge is down and the enemy is walking in unchallenged

    I think you are on to something here. There is little or no fear of God, only love and mercy and happy relationships are taught. Gospel presentations pleading with you to consider Jesus that omit to say what the Jesus of Revelation 1 will do to you if you won’t change. People were on occasions scared to join the early church.

    We’ve recently gone back tentatively to our local seeker-sensitive church, but I still can’t get out of my head the impression even in the ‘worship time’ that the emphasis has shifted from God to us; it’s about what makes us feel good. Praising God for what he has done for us. That’s not wrong until the ‘us’ starts to take centre stage.

    I’ve known, albeit rather rarely, ministries who have called out specific sexual sin by the word of knowledge/distinguishing of spirits, including on one occasion Terry Virgo calling out a man in a large celebration meeting who was abusing his 8 year old daughter. I knew a Pentecostal pastor who had phenomenal discernment i this area.

    God will give us such discernment if we ask for it having been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I’m convinced he doesn’t want us deceived. Knowledge of Greek deponent verbs won’t suffice.

    Sexual sin is quite literally a work of the flesh for which we must take responsibility, but I think you are right not to ignore a demonic element in this. Distinguishing the two is made all the harder when there are those who have gone way overboard on the demonic, either for sensationalism or a quick fix for deeply entrenched sin. This over-emphasis, however, is not the problem in most evangelical churches.

  19. Think about the implications of “we love God’s church.” What’s that doing in there? Seems to me they’re suggesting that seeking to hold someone responsible for this breach of trust is to not “love God’s church,” which is not to love what God loves, which is not to love God, which sets up a division between those who “love God’s church” (by not siding with the accusers) and those who don’t (by suing the church). But they are gracious to add that they do nevertheless love “these families” (deficient though they are in love of “God’s church”).

  20. Ken wrote:

    God will give us such discernment if we ask for it having been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I’m convinced he doesn’t want us deceived. Knowledge of Greek deponent verbs won’t suffice.

    Amen Ken.

    I once had a student that I know was a sociopath. Perhaps violent, perhaps not, but it was clear to me that this child had no conscience. I remember going into our office and reading his file which was RIDDLED with issues from an early age [at one point in 3rd grade he reached over and cut half a girl’s ponytail off – when he was asked why he did it he responded “because I could.” I believe the Holy Spirit gave me discernment about this, and I was able to see it – I mentioned that I was concerned about him to my principal, and she dismissed it entirely. He was so charming and nice! That couldn’t be true! But even in the short time I taught him I could see him learning more how to trick people – covering his anger and deceit and meanness. I left that school, but often think about that student.

    I believe that if we have practical, God-given wisdom [as Anna Salter says in her book, deflection, meaning taking necessary steps to avoid being targets] toward issues like this, and then we ask Him for wisdom in revealing these things, then the church would be much more well-equipped to deal with predators.

  21. Melody wrote:

    And according to the lawsuit’s allegations, guess who got told they should move campuses?

    Do we know if they did that on advice of counsel?

    Those who write about bullying have been known to say that there really is no good way to stop it and that the kid who is being bullied should be put in another school or a different class or such. We ran into this with one of the g’kids in that the school had tried all they could but could not within legal limits stop the bullying–and they were correct that under the circumstances they could not stop it.

    In this case I am wondering what it is that the victim’s family was advised to flee from? Was it perhaps the way that those who knew what was going on were treating the victim’s family? Were other parents the ones that the victim’s family were having problems with-either in addition to or instead of the church leadership?

    I guess this is why we have courts. Be interesting to see what happens.

  22. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    First?
    Considering the GrimDark subject matter, that sounds kinda frivolous.

    Sorry, I taught high school for 30+ yrs. I’ve seen paedophilia, incest, had a kid commit suicide after her father impregnated her, had a student arrested in my room after murdering a woman the night before while robbing her house, ( he had the pistol in his bookbag in the class, had student have a heart attack, and die in my class( she was 18) ….sorry, but I can be a little jaded. I had to be for my mental stability.

  23. Agreed. The specifics of what is said from the family’s point of view sound perfectly plausible, as is the possibility that the church leaders who wrote the statement believe their version to be true. These churches are big places, and the right hand does not always know what the left is doing.

    Also, it is pertinent to me that the mother had apparently volunteered in the past in the church.

    This is one big mess, and I wouldn’t wish it on anybody, but I do think that most families would be unlikely to sue if the things mentioned in their lawsuit had genuinely not happened as the church alleges and if they had had genuine loving support and honest grieving together (on their terms not the church’s) and according to their needs instead. From what I am hearing in the allegations, it seems to me that their pain was apparently not the focus.

    Moreover, if in fact they were indeed as alleged asked to move campuses to avoid the perpetrator (bizarrely still called “alleged” by the church despite pleading guilty), that is in itself despicable. Punishing the victim, and/or telling them they don’t believe them, while allowing the abuser’s family to go about their business without apparent consequence.

    For these reasons I am glad this is going to court in this way for the sake of the health of the wider church. Praying for this family over the holidays.

    @ GovPappy:

  24. Ken wrote:

    Gospel presentations pleading with you to consider Jesus that omit to say what the Jesus of Revelation 1 will do to you if you won’t change.

    He does not do anything to us eternally we did not choose. At some point, we have to acknowledge that behavior matters. Actions matter. And they might just matter a whole lot more than “correct doctrine” or the right words. And that is the bigger problem. Words are meaningless. Let’s see some “modeling” from the “leaders” who are great at “words”.

    I would rather spend my time around couples living together than most pastors I have known. Yet, the couple living together, who would not hurt a fly, are considered worse than the elders/pastors who use Jesus for power and wealth. Or the pastor who tries to spin molestation in church to save reputation and ends up re-victimizing the victims over and over. Because in his mind, the work he is doing is just too important to lose over some 3 year old being raped. His colleagues agree and rally around. That is how they think of themselves. We have to admit, we have seen it over and over

    I think what passes for Christianity these days has its priorities wrong.

  25. This moving church campuses thing is an allegation in the lawsuit, according to
    http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2015/11/30/family-files-sexual-assault-lawsuit-against-church/76591682/
    Although, I would definitely be out that church like a shot. This is a problem with the TGC/9marks teachings where basically no church but theirs is good enough, and not having a church family is not really an option. Sad the pressure that puts on people and situations. But this family should not have had to leave their campus after being at this church for twelve years; their church should instead have supported THEM in any way they needed. But there we go.

    okrapod wrote:

    Melody wrote:

    And according to the lawsuit’s allegations, guess who got told they should move campuses?

    Do we know if they did that on advice of counsel?

    Those who write about bullying have been known to say that there really is no good way to stop it and that the kid who is being bullied should be put in another school or a different class or such. We ran into this with one of the g’kids in that the school had tried all they could but could not within legal limits stop the bullying–and they were correct that under the circumstances they could not stop it.

    In this case I am wondering what it is that the victim’s family was advised to flee from? Was it perhaps the way that those who knew what was going on were treating the victim’s family? Were other parents the ones that the victim’s family were having problems with-either in addition to or instead of the church leadership?

    I guess this is why we have courts. Be interesting to see what happens.

  26. Ken wrote:

    the emphasis has shifted from God to us; it’s about what makes us feel good

    And with that attitude, we do church without God. The presence of God has been missing in many churches so long that both pulpit and pew no longer expect it or seek it. But, we sure feel good!

    Ken wrote:

    right not to ignore a demonic element in this

    Ken, I used to get upset with preachers who proclaimed that there was a devil behind every bush … until I found out that there was a devil behind every bush! Scripture notes that which comes against the church is either of the world, the flesh, or the devil. There was a time in America when the church was counter-culture to the world; it is now a sub-culture of it. Popular messages and popular preachers are attracting the masses with soothing words to comfort them in their sin. You are right to point out that sexual sin is a work of the flesh. What the 21st century church appears to be largely unable to accept and deal with is that the devil uses both the world and the flesh to come against God’s people. When a man abuses a child in church, he doesn’t do that by the Holy Spirit. Such sin may be a manifestation of the flesh, but you can bet that there is a spirit behind it. I, like you, have noted the abuses in Christendom pertaining to message and method to cast out demons, etc. … but to ignore the spiritual war we are in completely is to add to the corporate sin of the church. We, indeed, need to pray for discernment. If we remain prayerless in this regard, we remain powerless.

  27. Ken wrote:

    I’ve known, albeit rather rarely, ministries who have called out specific sexual sin by the word of knowledge/distinguishing of spirits, including on one occasion Terry Virgo calling out a man in a large celebration meeting who was abusing his 8 year old daughter. I knew a Pentecostal pastor who had phenomenal discernment i this area.

    God will give us such discernment if we ask for it having been filled with the Holy Spirit, because I’m convinced he doesn’t want us deceived. Knowledge of Greek deponent verbs won’t suffice.

    Ken – I am sure that God can work miraculously on occasion to reveal such things. I am equally sure that he also works through well thought series of checks and balances and good practices. He gave us a mind, and expects us to use it.

  28. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Amen Nick! There is an unspoken covenant in many churches between pulpit and pew in which the hireling says “You let me stay, pay me well, and I’ll give you what you want.” In effect, the pew is saying “Don’t confront us with the Holy One of Israel.”

  29. Sarah wrote:

    I believe that if … we ask Him for wisdom in revealing these things, then the church would be much more well-equipped to deal with predators.

    Amen! There is a hidden potential within the heart of every genuine believer to discern the evil around us. Too often, we don’t access this wisdom because we simply don’t pray for it.

    As a side-note, I’ve found that much discernment is simple observation. Keeping eyes and ears open can go a long way in preventing abuses within the “village.” See something? Say something!

  30. @ Chris S:
    Yes, I agree. It’s not either/or. God has told us for example in 2 Peter and Jude what to look out for (as Max rightly points out) in false teachers. The prompting/gifts of the Spirit supplement this, and on occasion can reveal somthing going on that otherwise is humanly speaking unknowable.

    There is also the gift of prophecy revealing the state of man’s heart within a church meeting. Whether you regard this as part of preaching, or something given more directly by the Spirit, our failure to ask God to do this is inexcusable.

  31. @ Max:
    Spiritual warfare is something I am re-visiting at the moment. I’m likely to have my brains picked on it over the Christmas holidays, and I want to be ready to give considered answers.

    I’ve even been listening to Derek Prince on this theme. I have some trepidation about this, but it would be silly not to give him a fair but discerning hearing.

    There is also a fairly dated but sober British book by Michael Green called I Believe in Satan’s Downfall that I’m re-reading after some 30 years. Green, an evangelical Anglican clergyman, has the advantage of having experience in this area without being a card-carrying charismatic.

  32. “Molesters of boys (at the time of their arrest) have molested over 150 victims. Read that again and contemplate that fact.”

    It’s probably considerably less than that when a young teenage pedophile is first caught. I don’t know if any research has been done on the average number of victims of 15 year old offenders, for example. There are obvious reasons why church leadership would want to believe this was just a “one time event”, but some may be sincerely thinking that because of this boy’s relatively young age when caught, he probably has no more victims in the church or anywhere else. I hope this terrible situation causes them to thoroughly educate themselves.

  33. Ken wrote:

    Spiritual warfare is something I am re-visiting at the moment.

    Ken, there are vast and varied resources on this subject. During a long Christian journey, I have considered a lot of them … but always find myself retreating to a careful and prayerful study of Ephesians 6:10-17, and then positioning (or re-positioning) my walk accordingly. While the thoughts and experiences of men in this arena are helpful, I believe we need to believe that the full armor of God as outlined in this passage is available to all who call themselves by the name of Christ, and that His spiritual armament will truly equip us to discern and engage in the battle. Coming up short with even one piece of the armor will reveal an opening to the enemy for him to strike.

  34. What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then? isn’t that the standard we are to use as believers…to put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel?

  35. Chris S wrote:

    checks and balances and good practices

    Indeed, we need to have them! In the condition the organized church is in, they serve as a necessary default in the absence of spiritual discernment.

  36. NJ wrote:

    because of this boy’s relatively young age when caught, he probably has no more victims in the church or anywhere else. I hope this terrible situation causes them to thoroughly educate themselves.

    What about the future? Since this teenager was not tried as an adult, his record will be sealed. No one will know what he has done. Will there be more victims?

  37. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then? isn’t that the standard we are to use as believers…to put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel?

    Let’s take a step further. What if the pastor himself were overpowered and raped by another man? Would the actions of the pastor, elders, and the TGC boys club be the same as if it were just a child of a pew peon who was raped?

    What if it was discovered that a woman in the church was having sex with young teenage boys on church property? Would church leaders support the woman and cover up or down play the abuse?

    The Karen Hinkley story …….. what if the church had learned that the pastor’s wife was a kiddie porn addict and that she had been living a lie under a false profession? Would the pastor and elders react the same way?

  38. Lydia wrote:

    My question is how long had he been grooming the 3 year old. At 16, I would be inquiring about other victims.

    At 16, I would be fighting for the molester to be tried as an adult!

  39. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then? isn’t that the standard we are to use as believers…to put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel?

    I agree with what you say as far as doing unto others.

  40. Bridget wrote:

    But do you know who Fred Phelps was? He certainly was not an annointed anything.

    Actually, I recently read a public-record document online titled “Addicted to Hate” about Fred Phelps at http://blank.org/addict/.

    Disbarred for extortion-by-lawsuit, similar shady ways of making money (like swindling using his kids), forcing his wife to service him anyway/anywhen, forcing all his sons to become lawyers for daddy because he got disbarred, accounts of physical child abuse worse than any I’ve ever heard (including one from a guy who’s back is nothing but scar tissue from child abuse), dancing and giggling when one of his sons’ fiancée committed suicide.

    That ManaGAWD was a Monster.

  41. A few comments after having perused the Fellowship Bible Church website:

    The all white male leadership team operate under the popular “plurality of elders” model. As most of us know this sounds good on paper, but in reality it means the senior pastor is in charge. He makes certain all elders are yes men so his agenda gets rubber stamped by the spineless elder board.

    Here is a quote from their website:

    “We believe that Jesus Christ leads the local church through a plurality of elders who have been called, gifted, and appointed by Him. By seeking the mind of Christ, depending upon the Holy Spirit and diligently examining the Word of God, the elders provide spiritual oversight and direction for the church. The qualifications of elders are character based as defined in 1 Timothy and Titus, and the decisions of the elders require unanimous agreement.”

    Show me an organization that ever achieves “unanimous agreement.” Maybe the North Korean government, but aside from them it is not possible to have mature, intelligent, independent thinking individuals unanimously agree on anything. If a church truly required this they would never get anything done.

    Again, here is another quote. This one concerns generosity, one of the five core values of Fellowship Bible Church:

    “God is generous. He gives freely, fully, graciously and without measure. He is a giver, not a taker. Generosity means living life with our hands open, generously giving away the time, talent, treasure and truth that God has so graciously entrusted to us.”

    I am guessing this generosity flows one way – from the pew-sitters to the church coffers. When it comes to being generous to a family whose young child was sexually abused so that they could obtain the professional help needed to restore some sense of normalacy, I am guessing life is not lived so open-handed. But I have a feeling the impending lawsuit may force the ruling “plurality of elders” to come to another “unanimous agreement” and make a generous offer for an out of court settlement.

  42. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused?

    You mean Pastor JUNIOR, Heir to the Throne/Pulpit?
    (Royalty attacked by a mere Commoner — what do you think)

  43. Max wrote:

    Indeed, we need to have them! In the condition the organized church is in, they serve as a necessary default in the absence of spiritual discernment.

    Just because a Chriatian doesn’t know or understand something, does not necessarily mean there is absence of spiritual discernment. You are almost implying that “spiritual discernment” (undefined in this conversation as yet) is the cure to everything. God has given many avenues for us to help ourselves as well. Expecting or waiting for a “spiritual discerner” to tell everyone what to do or how to behave is not what scripture teaches.

  44. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    “We believe that Jesus Christ leads the local church through a plurality of elders who have been called, gifted, and appointed by Him. By seeking the mind of Christ, depending upon the Holy Spirit and diligently examining the Word of God, the elders provide spiritual oversight and direction for the church. The qualifications of elders are character based as defined in 1 Timothy and Titus, and the decisions of the elders require unanimous agreement.”

    This sort of verbiage scares the daylights out of me. They actually believe “God has appointed them”. God “determined” their position of “oversight” over others. This is cult 101 stuff, guys.

  45. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    But I have a feeling the impending lawsuit may force the ruling “plurality of elders” to come to another “unanimous agreement” and make a generous offer for an out of court settlement.

    I always think of the video of James McDonald’s “bobblehead” elders. They literally sat there bobbing their heads in agreement.

  46. Bridget wrote:

    You are almost implying that “spiritual discernment” (undefined in this conversation as yet) is the cure to everything.

    Sorry if I implied that in my comment. Lord knows we are so far off-track in the organized church that it would take a heap of medicine to cure this disease! Widespread repentance would be a good place to start the healing process. Unfortunately, I don’t see much movement from either the pulpit or pew in that direction.

    The Bible is clear that those who pray for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding are better able to protect themselves (and others) against false prophets, heretical teaching, and the work of the enemy in the church. Discernment equips believers to distinguish between truth and error, right and wrong, good and evil. While this may not cover the systems and procedures of doing church in 21st century America, we would all do well to pray for a greater measure of spiritual discernment in our lives … what could it hurt? But, as we do, we need to beware of those who step forward claiming to be prophets or “spiritual discerners” … they usually have an agenda. Each believer has the hidden potential of discernment within them – we just need to get out of the way to receive and exercise it to test and try the spirits around us.

  47. Lydia wrote:

    They actually believe “God has appointed them”.

    Yeah, like the 29 year old reformed pastor and his “elder” team in their 20s-30s who were “appointed” to split an SBC church down the road from me … then take off for greener pastures.

  48. @ Max:

    We are giving it our best effort to warn Southern Baptist congregations of these stealth takeovers. Thanks for your great commentary on the matter.

  49. Deebs –

    I am wondering about a few things. There are quite a few inferences in the comments, and one in the article, that the perpetrator in this case was male, he is a pedophile, and the victim was male. I was under the impression that this information has not been divulged. Any light you can shed on this.

  50. @ Bridget:

    The Tennessean published an article with the following information:

    http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2015/12/02/brentwood-church-responds-sexual-assault-lawsuit/76670586/

    “After a family filed a $37.5 million lawsuit against a Brentwood church for negligence in the sexual assault of their 3-year-old son, the church has issued a response.

    According to a lawsuit filed Monday, the family’s son was raped by a male teenage volunteer in a bathroom of Fellowship Bible Church of Williamson County during church on Aug. 24, 2014. The teenager pleaded guilty to aggravated sexual battery.”

    We assume they have evidence regarding the gender of the victim and the perpetrator.

  51. GovPappy wrote:

    if the family has deemed that there’s unsatisfactory safeguarding of that church’s children. So the options are seeing the family as money-grabbers, or the church likely has serious issues with the protection of children. The church has of course painted them as money-grabbers, without actually saying so.
    My instincts are usually “follow the money”, but I’m not so sure about that here, given how churches tend to be with these crimes.

    you can use “follow the money” in this instance and you did it well. Why would a family who was deeply involved in a church turn on them? I believe that something really bad went down in this situation and the couple is doing what needs to be done. This church is getting slapped upside the head and if what is alleged is true, they darn well deserve it.

  52. Bridget wrote:

    and one in the article, that the perpetrator in this case was male, he is a pedophile, and the victim was male. I was under the impression that this information has not been divulged. Any light you can shed on this.

    You are correct about what happened. The information has been divulged. The pastors/elders/their wives/their BFFs/assorted hangers on all probably knew it. The family of the abused child knew about it. You can be they talked to warn others. The pastors told all the families in the child’s Sunday School class.

    I am tired of pastors using the same old balcony that “they couldn’t talk about it.” They pulled this one at my former church and effectively silenced things for a period of time. That is, until the abused boys and their families and friends started talking about it.

    It is next to impossible to keep something like this as a secret. Also, it is vital that other potential victims be warned. This is just deflection. Its the same old, same old. We didn’t do anything wrong. We were marvelous. The police told us to shut up and so we did….well sort of….

  53. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Show me an organization that ever achieves “unanimous agreement.”

    Ohm, they do by appointing sycophants who will do and say anything they are told. In my former church, the head pastor told us that the elders only disagreed with him twice in 28 years. Can you imagine? This means the elders were not doing their job or the pastor was so sanctified he could advise Jesus.

  54. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then?

    Interesting question.

  55. NJ wrote:

    There are obvious reasons why church leadership would want to believe this was just a “one time event”, but some may be sincerely thinking that because of this boy’s relatively young age when caught, he probably has no more victims in the church or anywhere else.

    Actually, there is some evidence that teen pedophiles were most likely molested themselves.
    Another factor to consider, I know of a teen pedophile (I promised to not divulge specifics) who not only molested kids in the church, but as time went on, he had molested family members.

    Think about Josh Duggar, he had molested 3 sisters and one non- family teen babysitter and that is what we know of. There is a possibility of more-that family got around.

    Its nice to think one has caught a teen pedophile “in the nick of time” but my guess is that lots more has been going on for years.

  56. Bill wrote:

    Seems to me they’re suggesting that seeking to hold someone responsible for this breach of trust is to not “love God’s church,” which is not to love what God loves, which is not to love God, which

    Excellent observation. This sort of lingo is seen in other situations Biblical™ manhood and womanhood-implying that anyone that differs from their view is *unbiblical.* The word Gospel™ is being used in similar ways as well.

  57. @ Deb:
    Deb, I suppose these young whippersnappers justify their actions as necessary to recover the gospel that the rest of us Southern Baptists have lost … but the new reformation is producing much weeping and gnashing of teeth – the YRR deceptive and aggressive church splitting agenda just doesn’t seem very Christian. Planting reformed church plants would be a much easier row to hoe for them, than breaking up established works … but I guess they want the buildings and other assets paid for by SBC’s majority non-Calvinist members.

  58. This type of lingo is propoganda 101… Anyone that questions them is going against the Bible and Gospel^TM

    This is not new, but our current culture is continuing to perfect propoganda…… You should see what is going on at universities these days…… The concept of free speech is almost gone…. Not all surprising that at all of thes “new” churches are like this…

    dee wrote:

    Bill wrote:
    Seems to me they’re suggesting that seeking to hold someone responsible for this breach of trust is to not “love God’s church,” which is not to love what God loves, which is not to love God, which
    Excellent observation. This sort of lingo is seen in other situations Biblical™ manhood and womanhood-implying that anyone that differs from their view is *unbiblical.* The word Gospel™ is being used in similar ways as well.

  59. dee wrote:

    Actually, there is some evidence that teen pedophiles were most likely molested themselves.

    A .pdf link discussing this, along with other information about juvenile offenders. The research shows that among adult offenders there is little correspondence between being abused and abusing, but for juvenile offenders the correspondence is high:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.wcl.american.edu/endsilence/documents/UnderstandingJuvenileSexualOffendingBehavior.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwittIqjr8DJAhUM6mMKHZFQATEQFggsMAQ&usg=AFQjCNHUtf3ZxOEzqY1Ktdyv1qK_6wBTKA&sig2=Q5QhBR6kLEUtw4NXlLQN-w

  60. Max wrote:

    I guess they want the buildings and other assets paid for by SBC’s majority non-Calvinist members

    … to go with the SBC seminaries, mission agencies, and publishing house that the New Calvinists already control.

  61. Max wrote:

    Planting reformed church plants would be a much easier row to hoe for them, than breaking up established works … but I guess they want the buildings and other assets paid for by SBC’s majority non-Calvinist members

    By doing this they are essentially parasites. I don’t mean that as invective, but in a biological sense.

    From Wikipedia:

    In biology/ecology, parasitism is a non-mutual symbiotic relationship between species, where one species, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the other, the host.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism

  62. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    The concept of free speech is almost gone…. Not all surprising that at all of thes “new” churches are like this…

    Yes. It is chilling. Our political correctness has bred a generation that believes they have a right to never be offended. And they get to decide. And in doing so they are offensive and oppressive! There is not enough bubble wrap in the world to deal with this.

  63. Lydia wrote:

    I would rather spend my time around couples living together than most pastors I have known. Yet, the couple living together, who would not hurt a fly, are considered worse than the elders/pastors who use Jesus for power and wealth.

    You sound almost as liberal and apostate as Potter. If you don’t have a magic sex-license (marriage certificate) you’re destined for the lake of fire.

  64. Muff Potter wrote:

    You sound almost as liberal and apostate as Potter. If you don’t have a magic sex-license (marriage certificate) you’re destined for the lake of fire.

    Spiritual spouses, Muff. A la Tony Jones!

  65. Bridget wrote:

    But do you know who Fred Phelps was? He certainly was not an annointed anything.

    I know next to nothing about Fred Phelps bar the name, so I wasn’t suggesting he was a prophet. I also believe in (in the sense of, acknowledge the existence of) false prophets; along with false pastors, false teachers, false evangelists, false apostles and counterfeit miracles.

  66. Nancy2 wrote:

    Spiritual spouses, Muff. A la Tony Jones!

    That anything like a “Soulmate(TM)”, i.e. never the one you’re married to, always the one you’re screwing on the side?

  67. Lydia wrote:

    Yes. It is chilling. Our political correctness has bred a generation that believes they have a right to never be offended. And they get to decide. And in doing so they are offensive and oppressive! There is not enough bubble wrap in the world to deal with this.

    All that remains is for a dictator to seize the Iron Throne and stop the wheel with HIS Truth(TM) on top.

  68. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    This is not new, but our current culture is continuing to perfect propoganda…… You should see what is going on at universities these days…… The concept of free speech is almost gone…. Not all surprising that at all of thes “new” churches are like this…

    All that remains is for one faction to seize power and make THEIR Party Line the Universal Truth.

  69. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I also believe in (in the sense of, acknowledge the existence of) false prophets; along with false pastors, false teachers, false evangelists, false apostles and counterfeit miracles.

    Yes. Figured you would.

  70. Lydia wrote:

    I think what passes for Christianity these days has its priorities wrong.

    I totally agree with this statement. There’s been talk of demonic type influences. We give Satan too much credit. Go down that road and you completely exonerate the perpetrator. This is a sick compulsion and needs to be treated as such. I believe it’s evil but what are we saying? God stands by while “demons” allow the rape of children? Doesn’t this make God as complicit as the silent pew sitter? Just saying. Doesn’t make a lick of sense to me. As for the money? Darn straight they should get a payout! This family will be going through a hell that wasn’t of their making. Every time they look at their son they’ll feel awful. Even if it’s not their fault, what parent wouldn’t lament their perceived failure to protect their most precious possession? Homes are wrecked, lives are wrecked. Work suffers, health suffers, relationships suffer. 35 million doesn’t come close and after the legal costs and appeals and counter appeals the family might not see it for years. And might not see it at all if the church can’t pay.
    For the record, I don’t think “fear of God” sermons mean anything to a pedophile. Otherwise this wouldn’t happen at all. If anything, autocratic pastors are a big part of the problem.

  71. This statement from the original article needs to be repeated:

    In the same document, this individual said that he trusts TGC’s Council to vet their members. I guess he is overlooking Mark Driscoll, who was beloved by most of The Gospel Coalition Council. The Gospel Coalition has not once posted a story by one of the victims of SGM. The celebs all visit CJ Mahaney’s church: men like John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Mark Dever, etc. I wonder if any of them ever wonder about those who have been abused. There is no question, by their actions, they have dismissed all of the victims of abuse and have embraced their BFF. How gospelly.

    The fact that these men, who are the only ones who truly understand the Gospel(TM), are willing to completely ignore the victims of the SGM affair, and embrace C J Mahaney, says tons. The fact that not a one of them has ever advocated for the victims lays into question everything they do. Do we remember what Jesus taught about children?

  72. Max wrote:

    Without an anointed pulpit…

    I agree with everything you say except the quote above. You’re going to have to find in the New Testament for me anything about a pulpit, much less an anointed one. The idea that there’s some anointed leader out there (other than Jesus) who can lead us to righteousness is in my opinion the cause of much of this evil. There is no such thing in the New Testament like our modern incarnations of pulpit preachers and exalted leaders, Youtube heroes, T4G honoraria pimps and the like. They are, for the most part, liars, fools, abusers of the true Church.

  73. Nancy2 wrote:

    Spiritual spouses, Muff. A la Tony Jones!

    Ah Nancy, I think that one’s the speshul decoder ring ya’ gotta have.

  74. It seems to me that 9marks and T4G types are very good at reading the end of Matthew 18. Not so much the first ten verses.

    Will M wrote:

    This statement from the original article needs to be repeated:

    In the same document, this individual said that he trusts TGC’s Council to vet their members. I guess he is overlooking Mark Driscoll, who was beloved by most of The Gospel Coalition Council. The Gospel Coalition has not once posted a story by one of the victims of SGM. The celebs all visit CJ Mahaney’s church: men like John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Mark Dever, etc. I wonder if any of them ever wonder about those who have been abused. There is no question, by their actions, they have dismissed all of the victims of abuse and have embraced their BFF. How gospelly.

    The fact that these men, who are the only ones who truly understand the Gospel(TM), are willing to completely ignore the victims of the SGM affair, and embrace C J Mahaney, says tons. The fact that not a one of them has ever advocated for the victims lays into question everything they do. Do we remember what Jesus taught about children?

  75. @ Law Prof:
    Ephesians 4 speaks of Christ giving spiritual gifts (anointing) church leaders to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. I truly believe that those gifts were not intended only for the NT church, but are available in the current age to men and women truly called into ministry. Paul said that Christ would continue to anoint those He calls “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13). We haven’t yet arrived at such unity and measure; thus, I believe the anointing still flows through the church where men get out of the way and allow God to have His way. My contention is that we have allowed the teachings and traditions of men to supersede the commandments of God, resulting in very little anointing of that sort in American pulpits today. And the organized church is a mess as a result; more annoying than anointed in far too many places.

  76. This is what I’m wondering:

    What about the teenage boy’s family? Had they attended church there for years and years? Were they ultra-conservative/controlling or not? Had he had any concerning situations in the past (not necessarily abuse, but troubles in school, etc.)? Were they shocked? How is their marriage now? Were their siblings? How are they doing with this?

    This was a terrible, terrible incident. Can you even imagine being his parents? Can you imagine walking through this with your spouse? Anyone who has been a parent of a 16 year old knows we can advise, punish, teach, model, or whatever and yet our children will do things that we have no control over.

    I’m sad for them, too.

  77. Max wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Ephesians 4 speaks of Christ giving spiritual gifts (anointing) church leaders to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry.

    Neither Ephesians nor any other place in the NT says a word about pulpits generally or anointings in them specifically. Leaders are to be low key elders (as in older people), who seek the lowest positions and are always last in line, who never lead by compulsion, never taking the spotlight, leading only by Godly example–there are your people with an anointing, earned by hard knocks, and you bet Christ gives those hard knocks to them to smack the ambition and John Piper-esque me-ism out of them.

    We may be on the same page here, Max, but when people talk about anointings in pulpits, it triggers me. As it ought to trigger any Christian who cares more about Christ than the modern day cult of personality that has killed the fellowship of the Church.

  78. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then? isn’t that the standard we are to use as believers…to put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel?

    One would think that if the pastor’s son had been molested that the church would support the pastor and his son and family but that might not be the case. I don’t have a link but I read about a tragic story. A pastor and his wife had a physically and cognitively impaired son. A congregation member volunteered to spend a couple hours with him each week so his mother could shop and run errands. He molested the boy and the family called police. Some members of the church felt that it should be kept within the church and the pastor should not have called the police. One woman actually asked him if his son enjoyed being molested. The perpetrator was let out on bail before the trial and killed the pastor’s wife and the son. It is one of the most heartbreaking stories I have ever read.

  79. @ Muff Potter:

    Lydia wrote: “I would rather spend my time around couples living together than most pastors I have known. Yet, the couple living together, who would not hurt a fly, are considered worse than the elders/pastors who use Jesus for power and wealth.”

    Muff: “If you don’t have a magic sex-license (marriage certificate) you’re destined for the lake of fire.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    ha….. ‘magic sex license’.

    Warlock Mr. Pastor in a dark suit and tie performs the rite, reciting the final incantation “i now pronounce you husband and wife”, a wave of his wand, a puff of smoke, and somehow all is suddenly legit. Until the spell was invoked, illegit. Hokus pokus not love made it legit.

    My question: Does Warlock Mr. Pastor consider the magic sex licenses from hindu, muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, Taoist, Shinto, Sikh, Zoroastrian, etc. rituals to be legit as well? why or why not?

  80. http://5f30a5af1b959e307f2f-8edac6a6fc3fd0fed8485cb61e67c53e.r50.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/m/0e3839019_1415738895_membership-covenant-form.pdf
    This is a link to the “Membership Covenant” at FBC, Brentwood, TN. It is almost like the covenant for the Ambassador Bible College, Chantilly, VA that Eagle put up on his website. Anyone interested in joining FBC must also fill out an application. I’m trying to figure out why Austin hasn’t joined , yet!
    (I posted this on the last thread, too.)

  81. if any one; woman – man – boy – girl – child – baby or adult – is raped the rapist must be reported to the police. no matter what ones church/pastors/elders etc say it is the duty of those involved to make sure that the crime is reported. to do anything else is to let down and further damage the victim in so many ways and on so many different levels.
    I have heard and read that so often those who molest others, especially if the criminal is under the age of 16, is a person who themselves was raped. this may well be the case – and by providing a raped child with full support one may well be preventing that child from becoming a rapist – you never know.
    at the same time even very small children know that to hurt someone is wrong; thus to have been abused is no excuse to abuse others.
    to say that we are all sinners is a cop out – yes, we are all sinners, which we all full know. where this not the case being a child molester would not be illegal!

  82. Nancy2 wrote:

    http://5f30a5af1b959e307f2f-8edac6a6fc3fd0fed8485cb61e67c53e.r50.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/m/0e3839019_1415738895_membership-covenant-form.pdf
    This is a link to the “Membership Covenant” at FBC, Brentwood, TN.

    Thanks for this link Nancy. I was searching their website yesterday to see if they had membership contracts and I could not find any information on it. This blog has highlighted membership contracts numerous times, continually warning people not to sign them. Wade Burleson has also written a blog stating that he would not sign one. These contracts, IMO, are unbiblical, unwarranted and a clear sign-post to me that the church is toxic. Steer well clear.

    “Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.”
    Matthew 5:37

  83. abigail wrote:

    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then?

    A Sovereign Grace pastor had a child who was sexually abused. They set up a hush fund to shut him up. Totally unethical, but then Sovereign Grace Ministries, led by celebrity C.J. Mahaney, has never been big on ethics. Mahaney’s MO is to shovel money to people like Mark Dever and Al Mohler to buy his way into their good graces. It has worked well for him.

    http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/hush-fund-set-up-by-top-sgm-leaders-to-meet-the-demands-of-a.html

  84. @ Law Prof:

    If you read about the elders at Fellowship, they have told us they were appointed by God. So evidently God directs them to direct those who signed their contract.

    Quite a con they have going. My goal is for the pew sitters to wake up and understand that ALL believers have anointing (1 John).

  85. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    Todd,
    On FBC main web page menu, click on “connect” at the top of the page.
    Scroll down and click on ” Fellowhip Brentwood”.
    Scroll down to “Join Fellowship” and click on “Learn More”.
    Scroll down and click on “View Membership Covenant”.
    The “Membership Application” is above the VMC.

  86. @ Nancy2:

    At the very end, the covenant/contract/indenture agreement seems to have a “Hotel California” clause:

    “In the event that I leave Fellowship, I will endeavor to join another community of faith to live out similar commitments made here, for the good of my soul, the body of Christ, and God’s great glory. I will also seek to make this transition known to the appropriate church leadership.”

    Wanting to control your associations after you leave? Gee, that doesn’t sound cultic at all… /sarc

  87. @ Serving Kids In Japan:
    Did you catch these parts of the covenant?

    ~ To generously steward all that God entrusts to me—truth, time, talent and treasure.
    ~Submitting to the leadership of the church (elders), who are submitted to Christ as the Head of His church. ~Following biblical guidelines for church discipline, restoration, and conflict resolution.

  88. Correction: Bill Wellons spoke at Redeemer Church of Dubai which is the clone plant of UCC Dubai. Exact DNA. Sorry about that.

  89. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    This blog has highlighted membership contracts numerous times, continually warning people not to sign them.

    Amen and Amen! When a believer accepts Christ, he enters into the only covenant he needs … one that is written in the blood of the Lamb. The free church of Jesus requires no supplemental documents written by mere men. No need to sign a church membership contract; believers are already in the Body of Christ. The terms and conditions of this “contract” are specified in the Bible; read and follow them. Steer clear of membership contracts which are written primarily to benefit authoritarian church leaders; they are intended to control, manipulate and intimidate you. New Calvinist churches are characterized by such agreements; a red flag if they put one in your face requiring you to sign on the bottom line before you can be a member. You are free in Christ! Exercise that liberty and steer clear of religious systems which will draw you back into bondage.

  90. Nancy2 wrote:

    ~Submitting to the leadership of the church (elders), who are submitted to Christ as the Head of His church.

    This line is so vague yet can be so encompassing when pulled out by an elder. It can be used to spiritually abuse men and women in the most heinous ways.

  91. Max wrote:

    New Calvinist churches are characterized by such agreements; a red flag if they put one in your face requiring you to sign on the bottom line before you can be a member.

    Trying to reproduce Geneva with themselves as Calvin.

  92. Law Prof wrote:

    We may be on the same page here, Max, but when people talk about anointings in pulpits, it triggers me. As it ought to trigger any Christian who cares more about Christ than the modern day cult of personality that has killed the fellowship of the Church.

    Yes, we are essentially in the same book on this, LP. Modern day personality cults and assorted charlatans seek to undo the NT pattern of how church is to function. While some are called to lead, ALL believers are priests … ALL Christians are in the ministry … NO believer is any less important in the Body of Christ as another, whether they be in the pulpit or pew. The abuse of the divine plan for the Bride of Christ has been chronicled on TWW and other watchblogs.

  93. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Trying to reproduce Geneva with themselves as Calvin.

    Geneva wasn’t the Christian utopia that Calvin had hoped for. The blood of dissenting believers martyred there testify to that. The magisterial reformers attempted to make the citizens of Geneva fit Calvin’s mold by the strong arm of the law. Today’s version of controlling your every move in “Geneva” = New Calvinist membership contracts.

  94. Nancy2 wrote:

    ~Submitting to the leadership of the church (elders), who are submitted to Christ as the Head of His church.

    I noticed this sentence as well. Now there is nothing wrong with expecting submission to leadership in a Hebrews 13 manner.

    It’s what is missing that sets off the alarm bells. There is no corresponding commitment from the leaders to the members; commitment only goes in one direction. And this is not the first membership form I have seen with this glaring omission.

    In addition, there is no qualification placed on the amount of submission owed to the elders. Is it unconditional? This ought to be spelt out, but if doing this made the document too long and unwieldy this is as good an argument as any for not having such an agreement in the first place.

    All believers are submitted to the Lord via his word. This stands above the elders, so if they start to go wrong the believer follows the word/teaching of the apostles and not men. If disputes arise, the word is the basis for settling them rather than a kind of mystical authority granted by the Head to the leadership. Otherwise, by what standard do you know that the leadership are actually submitted to the Head apart from taking their word for it?

  95. Nancy2 wrote:

    Did you catch these parts of the covenant?

    ~ To generously steward all that God entrusts to me—truth, time, talent and treasure (= CONTROL)

    ~Submitting to the leadership of the church (elders), who are submitted to Christ as the Head of His church (= MANIPULATION)

    ~Following biblical guidelines for church discipline, restoration, and conflict resolution (= INTIMIDATION)

    Warning: Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not fruit of the Holy Spirit.

  96. @ Nancy2:
    They are big on the same stuff we’ve seen from other churches where we’ve seen problems.

    If you talk about problems you’re having, they might categorize it as “gossip.” That is on there.

    You have to submit yourself to the leadership of the elders. If you quit their church, they ask (tell?) you to join a new one, but let them know about it, etc.

    I wonder what they do to people who don’t quite live up to the ‘regularly participate in weekly worship services’ rule? Has this church put in that creepy face recognition software yet, to track attendance? 🙂

  97. Daisy wrote:

    I wonder what they do to people who don’t quite live up to the ‘regularly participate in weekly worship services’ rule?

    They probably have to pay for the “free” coffee and donuts served in the foyer when they do show up. Additionally, some level of shunning by leadership would be in order … like, go the other way if you see them at Walmart. These are kids playing kids’ games in church … but they are playing with your soul.

  98. Max wrote:

    Geneva wasn’t the Christian utopia that Calvin had hoped for. The blood of dissenting believers martyred there testify to that. The magisterial reformers attempted to make the citizens of Geneva fit Calvin’s mold by the strong arm of the law.

    You could say exactly the same thing about the USSR, just substitute “Marx” for “Calvin”.

    (Marx should have stayed out of the Apocalyptic Prophet business. His BIG strength was in intricate detailed System Analysis. The more I hear about him, the more he sounds like an Aspie with an Obsession.)

  99. dee wrote:

    Correction: Bill Wellons spoke at Redeemer Church of Dubai which is the clone plant of UCC Dubai. Exact DNA. Sorry about that.

    Not exact DNA.

    Go back to Aristotle, as Christianized in the Book of Hezekaiah:

    Exact same (male) SEED, shot into a different (female) incubator.

  100. Lydia wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    If you read about the elders at Fellowship, they have told us they were appointed by God. So evidently God directs them to direct those who signed their contract.

    i.e. Rule by Divine Right.
    Where have we heard this one before?

  101. Max wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    Did you catch these parts of the covenant?

    ~ To generously steward all that God entrusts to me—truth, time, talent and treasure (= CONTROL)

    ~Submitting to the leadership of the church (elders), who are submitted to Christ as the Head of His church (= MANIPULATION)

    ~Following biblical guidelines for church discipline, restoration, and conflict resolution (= INTIMIDATION)

    Warning: Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not fruit of the Holy Spirit.

    They read like Lifton’s though reform points. And guess who gets to decode what each of those points mean for YOU. The elders.

  102. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (Marx should have stayed out of the Apocalyptic Prophet business. His BIG strength was in intricate detailed System Analysis. The more I hear about him, the more he sounds like an Aspie with an Obsession.)

    This is cracking me up. He did miss his real calling.

  103. I think some, such as Max and Ken, are missing the point. It doesn’t matter what the teachings in the church are. They may be seeker sensitive or hellfire and brimstone, it makes absolutely no difference! Pedophiles are attracted to churches like moths to flame. There are trusting people and children there and positions that can be used for predation very easily. They don’t care what the pastor is teaching, that’s not what they’re there for. Pedophiles are chameleons. They will learn the culture of the church and play it as a role. They’ll be more skillful at it than you.

    The only tactic that works is to immediately expose them and speak openly and clearly about them, warning all. None of this hiding the names and identities and sweeping it under the rug. Name names! Get the word out! Immediately.

    This whole letter is just a big CYA. The people want to look the other way because the subject is unpleasant. The leaders give them the green light to do so.

    Knowledge is power. Information is power. The church needs to learn how to use them. As long as the church offers a way for pedophiles to quietly slip under the radar, this is going to continue. Personally, I think it is human nature to want to pretend this problem away and the only thing that will change the way churches deal with it is to hit them where it hurts- in the wallet. Once they see, by experience, that it is expensive to do it wrong, they will rush to make changes. I’d also like to start seeing some charges pressed when people ignore mandatory reporting and also for postponing it.

  104. @ Max:

    You are probably old enough to remember some of the pastors I remember who modeled more than they preached AT others.

    They would have rather died than tell others they need to “write a blank check’ before they did so themselves.

    Seriously, I would pay money to be able to see my parents reaction to such a “membership covenant”. They would laugh all the way home by such arrogance.

  105. Marsha wrote:

    abigail wrote:
    What if it were the PASTORS son who was abused? Would the actions have been any different then? isn’t that the standard we are to use as believers…to put ourselves in the place of others and feel what they feel?
    One would think that if the pastor’s son had been molested that the church would support the pastor and his son and family but that might not be the case. I don’t have a link but I read about a tragic story. A pastor and his wife had a physically and cognitively impaired son. A congregation member volunteered to spend a couple hours with him each week so his mother could shop and run errands. He molested the boy and the family called police. Some members of the church felt that it should be kept within the church and the pastor should not have called the police. One woman actually asked him if his son enjoyed being molested. The perpetrator was let out on bail before the trial and killed the pastor’s wife and the son. It is one of the most heartbreaking stories I have ever read.

    I am VERY familiar with this story, and it is absolutely heartbreaking. (The perp committed suicide after he murdered the pastor’s wife and son.)

  106. dee wrote:

    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    So, Bill Wellons spoke at Redeemer Dubai. It is business as usual.

    I had no idea of the connection Dee. Thanks for that info. I listened to the first five minutes of the sermon from Feb. 2015 and Dave Furman really heaps the praise on Bill Wellons in his introduction. He is Dave’s hero. It seems like Dave must have attended Wellon’s church prior to coming to Dubai.

    BTW, I noticed on Redeemer’s website that Mark Dever and his lieutenant Jonathan Leeman will be holding a conference at Redeemer on January 8th. Unfortunately that day happens to be my birthday so I will be unable to attend. I am sure the Dynamic Duo will also be speaking at Folmar’s church that weekend so maybe I can go there to hear more about church discipline. (Sarcasm off)

  107. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Unfortunately that day happens to be my birthday so I will be unable to attend. I am sure the Dynamic Duo will also be speaking at Folmar’s church that weekend so maybe I can go there to hear more about church discipline. (Sarcasm off)

    The best birthday gift you could give yourself would be to go somewhere, anywhere else!

  108. Max wrote:

    They probably have to pay for the “free” coffee and donuts served in the foyer when they do show up.

    There is a Starbucks in Brentwood, only 2 or 3 miles from FBC.
    Now, I’ll have the creepie crawlies the next time I have to go down I-65.

  109. Lydia wrote:

    People (pew sitters) question less in authoritarian churches. Of course these days, most are, it seems.

    Anti-Bereans.

  110. @ Todd Wilhelm:

    conferences, conferences…. just how many crucially cutting-edge issues can possibly be wrung out of an ancient religion to warrant all these conferences?

    I think they’re just making things up now, to give themselves things to do.

  111. elastigirl wrote:

    My question: Does Warlock Mr. Pastor consider the magic sex licenses from hindu, muslim, Buddhist, Mormon, Taoist, Shinto, Sikh, Zoroastrian, etc. rituals to be legit as well? why or why not?

    An excellent question elastigirl. Irreverent humor from my previous comment aside, I think that most pastors would honor the marriage ceremonies from the ethnic and religious traditions you’ve cited. If for nothing else, they would be honored in terms of social contract and social responsibility for their respective societies.

  112. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    conferences, conferences…. just how many crucially cutting-edge issues can possibly be wrung out of an ancient religion to warrant all these conferences?
    I think they’re just making things up now, to give themselves things to do.

    I have a friend who calls all these conferences “Profiteering Praise Patrols”.

  113. Lydia wrote:

    I have a friend who calls all these conferences “Profiteering Praise Patrols”.

    I am curious just how much money it takes to get Dever and Leeman out to Dubai. This will probably be at least the 6th time Dever is here. I am sure whatever they will be teaching on has already been recorded at another location. Why not just play the video for the church and if one feels it necessary to have some live interaction this could be accomplished via a live hook-up with no need for travel.

    Lydia is right when she calls it “Profiteering Praise Patrols.” Money, prestige, stroking the ego of the speakers, it all seems to play a part. There is definitely more at play here than two celebrity speakers just wanting to serve the churches of Dubai. It surely is not a wise use of financial resources. I am not sure about Redeemer, but I know UCCD was barely able to meet their budget last year.

  114. @ Muff Potter:

    “I think that most pastors would honor the marriage ceremonies from the ethnic and religious traditions you’ve cited. If for nothing else, they would be honored in terms of social contract and social responsibility for their respective societies.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    i’m sure that’s true. But the sensor on my cognitive dissonance meter is reacting here…. aahg, no time to corral & articulate the rest of what’s in my head, have to go do my schedule for the day!

    can any intuitive person do it for me?

  115. elastigirl wrote:

    just how many crucially cutting-edge issues can possibly be wrung out of an ancient religion to warrant all these conferences?

    To visit the security system sellers booth to catch up on the latest up-to-date face recognition technology?

  116. Lydia wrote:

    You are probably old enough to remember some of the pastors I remember who modeled more than they preached AT others.

    Lydia, I have been a Southern Baptist for 60+ years. I have served alongside some great preachers of the gospel (my folks’ pastor was Adrian Rogers). They, indeed, modeled what they preached. Godly men, not preacher boys. Those are rare and endangered species these days.

    Yep, my parents would also be amazed at the level of arrogance in today’s pulpits. In fact, they would probably draw the charlatans aside and have a come-to-Jesus discussion with them (in love, of course). The true Body of Christ need not sign a membership contract – their names are already written in glory and they know where they fit in the Kingdom here on earth.

  117. siteseer wrote:

    Pedophiles are chameleons. They will learn the culture of the church and play it as a role.

    True. The devils can sneak in under the radar and play trusting souls until they work their evil. Too bad that we don’t have enough spiritual power working in 21st century church for “Ananias and Sapphira” deceivers to drop dead when they enter the door. In the prayerless condition of most churches, there isn’t enough spiritual power to blow the dust off a peanut, let alone detect demons when they join the ranks.

  118. Nancy2 wrote:

    There is a Starbucks in Brentwood, only 2 or 3 miles from FBC.
    Now, I’ll have the creepie crawlies the next time I have to go down I-65.

    The Starbucks in “downtown” Brentwood is an unofficial annex of Brentwood Methodist. You should see the line before Sunday School!

  119. @ elastigirl:

    Muff said: “I think that most pastors would honor the marriage ceremonies from the ethnic and religious traditions you’ve cited. If for nothing else, they would be honored in terms of social contract and social responsibility for their respective societies.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    so, about those brass tacks, it seems 2 people who love each other enough to commit themselves to each other, a good and honorable thing, are in sin unless they have a social contract with the State of California (or wherever).

    love, commitment, & sex = sin.
    love, commitment & sex WITH PERMISSION from someone else = not sin

    (really, I think people are just afraid of and have the heebeejeebies about other people having sex. this magic license or contract somehow sanitizes it)

  120. @ Bridget:

    “I’ve always wondered if an official marriage ceremony was performed for Adam and Eve? I’ve never seen it in scripture.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    if they actually existed, i’m sure they did something like what my friends did: committed themselves to each other on top of Half Dome in Yosemite.

  121. Actually, the Bill Wellons who spoke at Redeemer Dubai is the senior Bill Wellons, father of Bill Wellons who is the pastor at Fellowship Brentwood. Bill Wellons Sr. runs Fellowship Associates where Dave Furman participated in a training program for church planters which was originally a program of Fellowship Bible Church of Little Rock AR.
    @ Todd Wilhelm:

  122. razorback sarah wrote:

    Actually, the Bill Wellons who spoke at Redeemer Dubai is the senior Bill Wellons, father of Bill Wellons who is the pastor at Fellowship Brentwood. Bill Wellons Sr. runs Fellowship Associates

    Thank you for this information. We are actually exploring the ministers of Fellowship Associates and this helps.

  123. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    I have been exploring the plane fares to Dubai. They are not cheap. But, I guess the CHBC/UCCD tithers believe it is worth it to keep their pastors traveling all over the world. The Furmans and others sure get around as well.

  124. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    I listened to the first five minutes of the sermon from Feb. 2015 and Dave Furman really heaps the praise on Bill Wellons in his introduction. He is Dave’s hero. It seems like Dave must have attended Wellon’s church prior to coming to Dubai.

    Interesting….wait until next week. We have been doing some reading about the ties with Fellowship Associates and some churches and former pastors of certain ministers which have had their own issues in handling various abuse complaints.

  125. Tina wrote:

    I am VERY familiar with this story, and it is absolutely heartbreaking. (The perp committed suicide after he murdered the pastor’s wife and son.)

    Good night! I have not heard about that story. Could you direct me to some articles?

  126. dee wrote:

    @ Todd Wilhelm:
    I have been exploring the plane fares to Dubai. They are not cheap. But, I guess the CHBC/UCCD tithers believe it is worth it to keep their pastors traveling all over the world. The Furmans and others sure get around as well.

    Even at the tiny little church where I was an elder, the one that was led by two former SGM leaders, a great deal of the finances was going for all-expenses paid trips to conferences for the pastor, senior elder, and families.

  127. Sarah wrote:

    I once had a student that I know was a sociopath. Perhaps violent, perhaps not, but it was clear to me that this child had no conscience. I remember going into our office and reading his file which was RIDDLED with issues from an early age [at one point in 3rd grade he reached over and cut half a girl’s ponytail off – when he was asked why he did it he responded “because I could.” I believe the Holy Spirit gave me discernment about this, and I was able to see it – I mentioned that I was concerned about him to my principal, and she dismissed it entirely. He was so charming and nice! That couldn’t be true!

    That story reminded me, that every time anyone is arrested for some abominable crime, the neighbors always gush on about “what a nice man he always was, such a good neighbor”, & of course, the guy was putting on an act to fool folks……

  128. razorback sarah wrote:

    Actually, the Bill Wellons who spoke at Redeemer Dubai is the senior Bill Wellons, father of Bill Wellons who is the pastor

    Thanks for this info Sarah. I saw the photo of the younger Wellons on the FBC Nashville website and thought he looked rather young, but these types of churches usually have 25 year old elders so I didn’t think twice about it.

  129. @ Law Prof:

    The same for my former church. Not just conferences which are all the time but strangely the YRR pastor needs to travel alone on “mission trips” to India, Africa and Haiti. He has been there less than two years and misses 1/4 of Sunday’s so far. What is strange is nothing actually comes from the trips. He has managed in the time to do away with many activities ( nothing more important than listening to him) and I think it is because most things have been created and implemented by members. They had too much power.

    The arrogance and entitlement of these guys is astonishing. All the while they are
    Dudebros and high fivers and they suck people in. The fake seems to be inbred.

    I am astonished the pew sitters have allowed this to go on but more and more just opt to leave. Because saying something is “mean”. Less than 2 years and the entire staff is YRR. The last non Cal just left. Forced out with typical tactics.

  130. @ elastigirl:
    My comment seems to have started something I sure did not intend from my pov. I think it is wise to legally marry for many reasons, just for the record. I was juxtaposing what these people rail against as sin all the while using/harming others by propping up cruel belief systems.

  131. Lydia wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    The same for my former church. Not just conferences which are all the time but strangely the YRR pastor needs to travel alone on “mission trips” to India, Africa and Haiti. He has been there less than two years and misses 1/4 of Sunday’s so far. What is strange is nothing actually comes from the trips. He has managed in the time to do away with many activities ( nothing more important than listening to him) and I think it is because most things have been created and implemented by members. They had too much power.
    The arrogance and entitlement of these guys is astonishing. All the while they are
    Dudebros and high fivers and they suck people in. The fake seems to be inbred.
    I am astonished the pew sitters have allowed this to go on but more and more just opt to leave. Because saying something is “mean”. Less than 2 years and the entire staff is YRR. The last non Cal just left. Forced out with typical tactics.

    Reminds the YRR church that I mentioned above; the arrogance was almost unbelievable, but always thinly masked by “niceness”. Decisions for the church that affected families and people ranging in age from infancy to 60-something were devised behind the scenes by a small coterie of men ranging from 23 to 40, none of whom at the time had raised a child to adulthood (but in the years since, both the main pastor and right hand men have, and both of their eldest children now are professing atheists). Decisions were presented as a fait accompli. Their decisions always involved less fellowship directed by the laity, more attention on the leadership.

  132. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    razorback sarah wrote:
    Actually, the Bill Wellons who spoke at Redeemer Dubai is the senior Bill Wellons, father of Bill Wellons who is the pastor
    Thanks for this info Sarah. I saw the photo of the younger Wellons on the FBC Nashville website and thought he looked rather young, but these types of churches usually have 25 year old elders so I didn’t think twice about it.

    Had a 23 year old elder at my church. He was a loyal sycophant to the pastor until some years later he attached himself to a higher authority without the cultic neocal denomination and turned on his former leader, voting with higher authority leader to excommunicate him. Would’ve made old school 1920s communists proud.

  133. @ Lydia:

    it’s an issue for me to explore, solely for the purpose of trying to nail down and articulate the nebulous logical/philosophical discomfort I feel (there — did my best to avoid the becoming-too-trendy ‘cognitive dissonance’).

  134. Lydia wrote:

    My comment seems to have started something I sure did not intend from my pov. I think it is wise to legally marry for many reasons, just for the record.

    The legal aspect seems to have helped the women and children the most. But still, marriage as Christians view it today, was a creation of religion and not how ancient peoples functioned at all.

  135. @ Bridget:

    Yes. As far as history goes, it has only been recent that women had options to get out of horrible situations and had real choices. In many countries custody was immediately given to the Father. NO matter what.

    In situations where people do not marry and have children there is less stigma attached which is good because it is not the childs fault. However, my experience has been that within couples who do not marry legally there is usually one who eventually wants to…. and there is the rub.

    There are no easy answers. But unless both are independent financially, I think legal marriage is safer. Especially if the woman has curbed her career for children.

    As far as it being a religious requirement, I think that is a very interesting discussion as to what constitutes marriage. We are finding here that some Muslim refugees are marrying/have married several women… just not legally. The Mormons are known to have done the same and those women were on public assistance which is how they could afford it. My Brit friends tell me it is going on there, too.

    So, it would be an interesting discussion. What sort of responsibility does it entail? And does a legal declaration protect society, too?

  136. siteseer wrote:

    As long as the church offers a way for pedophiles to quietly slip under the radar

    That is my point. Straight talking about Christian sex ethics and what is and what is not sinful will reveal sin in the hearts and actions of the listeners, but the church has switched the radar off when it relegates the gifts of the Spirit to the NT past.

    Paedophiles can fool believers in a church by their skill at deception, but they can never fool God, and I still maintain if we ask, God will reveal such goings on if this is occurring amongst the membership. How he brings this to light may not necessarily be particularly supernatural, but that said I’ve had some limited experience of nothing other than a word of knowledge revealing such things as immorality.

  137. Ken wrote:

    Straight talking about Christian sex ethics and what is and what is not sinful will reveal sin in the hearts and actions of the listeners, but the church has switched the radar off when it relegates the gifts of the Spirit to the NT past.

    Or it goes the other way and narrows the gifts of the Spirit to TONGUES TONGUES TONGUES TONGUES TONGUES.

    Whatever happened to WISDOM?

  138. Ken wrote:

    Paedophiles can fool believers in a church by their skill at deception, but they can never fool God, and I still maintain if we ask, God will reveal such goings on if this is occurring amongst the membership.

    Ken, if in the gifts of the spirit you include the gift of discernment, I can tell you it’s very unwelcome in the church today.

    But I also think that God reveals things through the use of our normal common sense and normal behavior (like talking to each other about things) and these things aren’t happening in church, either. We are to check our brains at the door, not question, not “gossip,” not “judge,” not cause “division,” and never be skeptical.

  139. siteseer wrote:

    Ken, if in the gifts of the spirit you include the gift of discernment, I can tell you it’s very unwelcome in the church today.

    Unless “gift of discernment” is redefined to mean “seeing DEEMONS under every bed” or “smelling out witches and dissidents — Beware Thou of The Mutant”.

    Remember Screwtape on Semantics and redefinition of words, My Dear Wormwood.

  140. Law Prof wrote:

    (but in the years since, both the main pastor and right hand men have, and both of their eldest children now are professing atheists).

    “Take Your God and Shove It” reactions?
    Now that they are finally independent adults and CAN detach from Daddy?

  141. Over a week later and still no response from TGC — what does that tell everyone? I think silence is the new Genie: keep quiet and it will, poof!, disappear.

    But another take on the silence comes from the Naked Pastor: by keeping quiet, refusing to speak to the issue, they attempt to control the narrative on abuse in their midst: http://www.nakedpastor.com/2015/04/julie-mcmahon-tony-jones-and-submergent-my-update/

    Thank heaven for sites like this, and others, who refuse to sinfully remain quiet.

  142. Pingback: A Comprehensive Overview of Cru’s Winter Conferences for December 2015/January 2016 … Paul Tripp, Curtis Allen, Kenji Adachi and Scott Nickell are Some of the Speakers | Wondering Eagle

  143. Divorce Minister wrote:

    “Please know we love these families, and we love God’s church.”
    TGC love-bombing. A classic.
    I remember hearing something like that from a Mars Hill Church community leader directed at me–we love you both–while he facilitated his daughter’s adultery and unbiblical divorce.
    This move as old as sin. Satan is an angel of light. Saying you love while doing the opposite–e.g. essentially publicly suggesting the “beloved” are liars–is destructive. Some may even call it abusive. Just saying.

    Yeah, you’re right — love should have NO PLACE in God’s church!