Five Women Sue the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP)

"David Gibbs III, the attorney representing the women, said in an interview the women decided to litigate only after unsuccessful efforts to address the issues with the IBLP board of directors, who are also named in the lawsuit. Gibbs added that his clients did not want to sue, but that the board 'rather stubbornly and in my opinion rather arrogantly basically challenged the girls to bring the case.' "

The Washington Post

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=25533&picture=sad-womanSad Woman

The Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP), which on its Twitter account purports to be "dedicated to giving clear training on how to find success by following God’s principles found in Scripture", is facing a serious legal challenge from five of its former female interns, employees, and/or participants. The Washington Post broke the news as follows (see screen shot below):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/10/22/five-women-sue-bill-gothards-ministry-that-has-ties-to-the-duggars/

For those not familiar with IBLP, it was founded by Bill Gothard, who at the age of 15 . . .

noticed some of his high school classmates making unwise decisions. Realizing that they would have to live with the consequences of these decisions, he was motivated to dedicate his life to helping young people make wise choices.

Gothard, who had been a poor student up until high school, began memorizing and meditating on Scripture.  This discipline helped improve his academic skills, and he went on to attend Wheaton College.  In 1964 he was asked to design and teach a course based on his work with youth, which went by the name "Basic Youth Conflicts".  It was offered at Wheaton for undergraduate and graduate credit.  Gradually, "Basic Youth Conflicts" began to be offered at other institutions and before long seminar attendance surged, with 10,000 to 20,000 youth and adults flocking to hear Bill Gothard.

In 1961 IBLP was incorporated under the name "Campus Teams', and then in 1974 (as the seminar ministry grew) it was called the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts.  Finally, in 1989 the name was changed to Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP).

Fifty years after he was first asked to design a course on Basic Youth Conflicts, Bill Gothard resigned from the institute he founded after being accused of rampant sexual harassment.  A Christian Post article revealed the reason for Gothard's resignation (see below):

The allegations stem from posts published online by Recovering Grace, an organization "dedicated to helping those affected by the teachings of Gothard, the Institute in Basic Life Principles and the Advanced Training Institute."

"We have had men and women who served in the [Institute in Basic Life Principles] leadership confirm that the allegations are true, although they felt (and often were) powerless to do anything at the time," states RecoveringGrace.org. "In fact, we have learned that the IBLP Board of Directors has on more than one occasion addressed this behavior with Bill Gothard, but to no lasting avail."

A year and a half later, the IBLP Board is still facing problems. Just last Tuesday a lawsuit was filed in the DuPage County Circuit Court in Illinois (IBLP is headquartered in Oak Brook, Illinois).  According to The Washington Post article, the lawsuit . . .

charges that IBLP, its employees and directors “frequently received reports” of “sexual abuse, sexual harassment and inappropriate/unauthorized touching.” But, the lawsuit said, they never reported “these serious, potentially criminal allegations to law enforcement authorities or the Illinois Department of Children & Family Services” as required by state law.

David Gibbs III, the attorney representing the women, said in an interview the women decided to litigate only after unsuccessful efforts to address the issues with the IBLP board of directors, who are also named in the lawsuit. Gibbs added that his clients did not want to sue, but that the board “rather stubbornly and in my opinion rather arrogantly basically challenged the girls to bring the case.”

The board, he said, “is not operating in a spirit of transparency or openness,” and has not discussed the allegations with the victims.

IBLP did not respond to a request for comment.

Julie Anne Smith over at Spiritual Sounding Board has been covering this story, and she published the allegations against IBLP in a post entitled Attorney David Gibbs III Discusses the IBLP Lawsuit and Answers Important Questions (see below).

http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/10/24/attorney-david-gibbs-iii-discusses-the-iblp-lawsuit-and-answers-important-questions/

Julie Anne Smith has gotten to know David Gibbs III because of another story she covered on her blog, and she recently had the opportunity to interview him regarding the lawsuit against IBLP.  We have been in contact with Julie Anne, and she has kindly given us permission to re-publish her interview in its entirety (see below).  We will continue to monitor this situation and will keep our readers informed as to any developments.


Julie Anne Smith's Interview with Attorney David Gibbs III (link)

Are there plans to name Bill Gothard himself in a lawsuit at some point?

Mr. Gibbs responded, “Bill is not legally connected with the organization [IBLP]. It is the Board’s decision” if they were to bring him back into the organization. Gibbs noted that adding Gothard to the lawsuit would make it more complicated for various reasons, one reason in particular, that some “clients were less comfortable about suing him directly” because of the abuses. He also described that, typically, “litigation goes against an organization with the goal of compensating victims,” not against an individual, such as Gothard.

This makes a lot of sense. I am on the board of a local nonprofit, and as a board member, it is my responsibility (along with the other board members) to make sure the Artistic Director is doing what he’s supposed to be doing. The Board of IBLP was supposed to make sure Bill Gothard was behaving appropriately. If they had any indication that something was amiss, they had/have a responsibility to act on it immediately. According to the lawsuit, the IBLP was negligent in how they handled these allegations by failure to report to authorities, not removing Gothard immediately from his position, failure to seek sex abuse experts to conduct a thorough unbiased investigation, etc. By suing the Board, it sends a clear message to IBLP that there was negligence on their part. Bill Gothard is no longer with the ministry, but, moving forward, how will they address these concerns? Will children be put in harm’s way? Who will make sure they are protected and safety policies are in place so no child will be harmed, or if something does happen, there are procedures in place to report immediately to civil authorities and minimize further abuse?

Why is this a civil lawsuit instead of a criminal case?

Mr. Gibbs made the important distinction that this is a civil lawsuit, not a criminal case. Anyone can report sex abuse allegations to authorities and they (authorities) may decide to open an inquiry for a criminal case, but that is entirely different than this civil lawsuit. A criminal case is initiated by the government and sentencing can include jail time, etc. A civil case is brought on by parties who ask the court to make the defendants fulfill their legal responsibilities, compensate for harm done, etc. This article gives further information.

Child Labor Laws

There was discussion about children working for IBLP without appropriate pay and/or possible violation of child labor laws. Gibbs indicated that he and his firm always report any alleged criminal activity to authorities, such as possible violation of child labor laws; but once again, it is within the discretion of the government to pursue these allegations and decide if an inquiry is warranted, which may result in a criminal case. Mr. Gibbs is exploring labor violations, which might be a separate case.

Is there an ongoing search for victims of sexual harassment or sexual assault that fall within the statute of limitations for bringing criminal charges against Bill Gothard?

Mr. Gibbs indicated that his “office remains open for anyone” to report sexual abuse allegations. We discussed the Bill Cosby sex abuse scandal and how publicity helped to encourage more victims to come forward. Mr. Gibbs believes it is likely that we will see the number of plaintiffs increase as the case becomes more public and victims realize that they are part of a larger group and won’t have to fight this battle on their own. Based on the number of personal testimonies shared at the Recovery Grace site, I, too, predict the number of plaintiffs to rise.

IBLP Headquarters

We discussed the IBLP property which is currently for sale. There was recent news that IBLP is selling their main headquarters and has plans to relocate to Big Sandy, Texas. Mr. Gibbs indicated the property is worth approximately $100,000,000. The lawsuit requested that if the property is sold, some sort of trust fund is established until the case is concluded. The monies could later be used to compensate victims if the plaintiffs are successful in the lawsuit.

Survivor Lawsuits in General

Have you served as counsel for other lawsuits by survivors against the perpetrators, or is the IBLP suit the second one for you?

Mr. Gibbs responded that he has handled a number of litigations of injured (all types of injuries). This is not the second case.

Do you think there will be more such lawsuits emerging (e.g., negligence, emotional distress, etc.), given the current overall situation with survivors of abuse?

Yes, if someone is abused, they are entitled to compensation for their abuse. We will see increasingly more of this kind of litigation. With national leaders comes responsibility, and part of that is to protect children, keep them safe, and have zero tolerance for child abuse. They should be safe at church and in their homes.

Allegations of Vulnerable Children Revictimized at IBLP

We discussed a bit of the plight of some of the plaintiffs (in general). It’s important to think about these young children and what it was like for them. Some came from abusive homes and were sent to IBLP so they could be “fixed” by Gothard and his teachings. These were kids who were homeschooled and lived sheltered lives. Some of them came from abusive homes and were being sent to IBLP to help their character. They were sent far from home to a strange environment. Their parents trusted IBLP to take care of them. These children likely had no one they knew, which put them in a more vulnerable position.

If they were caught in a sin, there were serious consequences. Some were isolated and/or abused at IBLP. For some, IBLP became their second place of victimization. When they “misbehaved,” leaders would call home to the fathers (also perpetrators) and share the “sins,” and were sent back home. So some went from one abusive home to experience abuse at IBLP, and then back home in disgrace because they failed at IBLP. Just imagine what would happen to a child who returned to their abusive home from IBLP for discipline reasons! The child was to blame in both places! These children had no safe place for help.

The age range of our victims when abused by IBLP was 14 years to 17 years (and continuing for some as adults). Unreported home abuse ranged from ages 4-17.

For people to cover up, hide it, keep it in the family is victimizing children at unbelievable levels. When you see this pattern of a vulnerable child, they get sent to IBLP to a person with a position of trust, you isolate them, then abuse them, that’s horrific. Then when you cover it up – blame them – that’s horrific. Many people don’t survive [emotionally].

Mr. Gibbs went on to discuss the responsibility of Christian leaders:

I do believe religious leaders/organizations need to realize there is a high standard – and society is holding people more accountable. … I think you’re going to see more cases, but hopefully the national leaders will see there is a higher bar of expectations [for accountability].

Can you give an update on the Lourdes Torres vs. Doug Phillips lawsuit?

The case is currently in discovery and depositions are being taken. The case continues, and mediation will likely occur later in the year. Mr. Gibbs indicated that because this is a high-profile case, extra effort has been made to keep media distractions to a minimum.

I mentioned to David Gibbs that some were concerned about him taking the case based on his background and connections, and asked for comment.

Gibbs identified a possible point of confusion: his name. His father is David Gibbs Jr., and he is David Gibbs III. This often causes misinformation and he’s very used to the mix-up. (You can see a chart comparing the two Gibbs’ here.)

Mr. Gibbs then shared in more detail about the process of what happens when he meets a client:

I always sit down with any of my clients and share my heart, explain to them my perspective, my passion, why I’m willing to get involved. The easiest thing would be to do nothing and not engage in this arena. But I wouldn’t feel like I was doing the right thing. I view this as an honor and the right thing to do to represent these women who are victimized.

In terms of stepping forward, my actions speak fairly loudly. Are there things years ago I wish I weren’t involved in? Yes, but in terms of marching forward, [I have] zero tolerance for child abuse and encourage churches to build awareness, to step forward and do things the right way. The folks that have gotten to know me through litigation seem to have a lot of confidence in the sincerity of these actions. I want to encourage these ladies. I view it as my privilege, along with others.

I asked his views of women, especially with regard to the culture of Patriarchy which depersonalizes women.

I believe women are obviously equal to men, created by God – there is no question in terms of their value. [I believe] they should be educated, and receive every opportunity to achieve their full potential. They need to find their identity in God. Some of the dangerous teachings of the overdomination of males to break the spirit [of women] is not loving. It’s wrong and lends itself to abuse.

We have numbers of lady attorneys on staff and they do great work. Every person has to rise and fall on their own merits. Some of what has been taught in Patriarchal cultures puts ladies in positions where they feel horrifically trapped. People who are supposed to protect, turn around and abuse [women]. That’s incredibly sad.

Is there anything that hasn’t been reported in the media that you would like share?

Many of these women were in abuses at home and escaped to get free. It’s heartbreaking.

The vulnerability – once they’d try to pull away, skip one-on-one sessions, counselors were made to telephone their fathers, they were sent back with shame of being sent home where they were abused and having been told by IBLP officials all of the confidential stuff that went on during sessions. Imagine a girl who has never been to school/doctor – that had to be horrifically confusing. All the people you hoped to trust and then find yourself victimized. When you look at culture, many of these ladies felt like they had no place to turn. It’s frightening to step on the national stage and bring forward these claims. Family dynamics, personal dynamics, these cases bring up a lot of painful emotions and courage to come forward.

It was brave of [these] ladies to step forward – scary with abusive backgrounds – courage. It’s disappointing that IBLP forced them into this. We offered to meet [IBLP Board members] ahead of lawsuit being filed, but they refused. In some measure, they were counting on the victims not being willing to come forward. That was a calculated risk on their part. They are concerned about other women at risk.

Internal Investigation by IBLP

We discussed the internal investigation by IBLP. IBLP paid $50,000 for an investigation to be done. This investigation was a “sham.” The results were never publicly released. I was greatly disturbed to find that the no one asked questions of the victims:

No victims were spoken to in the investigation.  It is the lowest level of confidence or credibility if they don’t talk to victims.

The lawsuit will access findings of the “investigation.” They will have to produce who they talked to, the report, the details, so people can judge from themselves.

 There was a calculated effort by the Board to handle it disastrously wrong. Hopefully other churches and organizations will learn from this.

Do you have any thoughts on what it means in the Kingdom for you to participate in the dismantling of a system your father helped create that seems to have shielded these kinds of ministries from scrutiny and accountability?​

I am always honored to stand up for what I believe to be right, and I want to do it with a right spirit. That’s why we offered IBLP to talk. But when people refuse to do things the right way, you have to evaluate options.

Conclusion

The teachings of Bill Gothard and the abuses that have gone on for years at IBLP have harmed many. What many of us have known for years is finally being exposed publicly, thanks in part to the connection with the Josh Duggar sex scandal. Some have concerns about Mr. Gibbs’ involvement in this case. Others want Gothard to be criminally charged and brought to justice. The bottom line is that five brave women have joined together,  chosen Mr. Gibbs to represent them, and to call IBLP to account for the way they have mishandled serious abuse cases.

In my conversation with Mr. Gibbs, the underlying theme I heard was that churches and organizations must be responsible in how they defend and protect children, and they must have policies in place. At the beginning of my conversation with Mr. Gibbs, I asked him if he knew that the number one reason churches are brought to the courtroom is because of sex abuse of minors. Christian churches and organizations have failed miserably in this area. I believe Mr. Gibbs is doing what he can do to bring justice to victims and encourage leaders to make sure our children are safe. I can and will stand behind that. I hope you will all join me in praying for the five women and Mr. Gibbs and his staff as they are working hard on this case.

Comments

Five Women Sue the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP) — 131 Comments

  1. Wow. I’m so impressed that these women felt able to step forward to bring all of this to light. Also second?

  2. Elizabeth, you are absolutely right. For these women to go beyond the Patriarchal culture in which they were raised and legally confront the abusive institutional system that abandoned them is a very bold and brave step. They have my deepest respect.

  3. I admire these women for their bravery and this is the time to sue, before IBLP and ATI moves off to Big Sandy, Texas. That said, I’m less than sanguine about the ultimate results, in part because I don’t trust their attorney. (Sorry, David Gibbs III.) But there’s been a lot of publicity surrounding this case and just getting the information out there is valuable.

  4. I’m encouraged by the women who’ve stepped forward for this civil lawsuit. I’ve had friends who’ve been trapped in the IBLP/Gothard system and I’ve seen how destructive it’s been for them, especially for my female friends. It takes faith and grace to move away from it …

    Thanks, Julie Anne and Deb, for helping get the word out about this case.

  5. P.S. For what it’s worth, I hadn’t noticed it until more recently, but it does seem like an increasing number of secular news sites have been referencing specific issue/organization survivor blogs like Recovering Grace, and multi-issue investigative/survivor blogs like Spiritual Sounding Board, TWW, and Warren Throckmorton — quoting material they’ve put together.

    Maybe it’s that the number of scandals with legal cases has increased in recent years and there’s a greater need for more highly focused information. Hopefully it’s a sign of greater trust in these blogs as informative and accurate sources on the background and abuse issues. But anyway, it seems these sites have become go-to sources because the writers have a larger context to work from, and keep putting together huge amounts of important material. Kudos to all y’all for faithfulness in writing about the details and dynamics of abuse and recovery …

  6. $50,000 per victim is a paltry sum. I suppose it shows that they are not after money as much as they are after some kind of justice. But given the amount of $$ amassed by Gothard and his cronies, I would love to see them get some REAL money as well as the civil verdicts that could help them in their healing process.

  7. By suing the Board, it sends a clear message to IBLP that there was negligence on their part.

    I am disturbed by Gothard’s abuse and his doctrine. I lament so many have suffered degrading and damaging abuse by a person and an organization that purported to be helpful. Yet I am very squeamish on the part of suing the board members, suing the organization is one thing, going after board members is a whole different matter.

    I’m an engineer not a lawyer, but with a forty year background in product liability lawsuits I worry over trusting juries in civil lawsuits where the preponderance of evidence it so much less than in criminal cases. Regardless of the negligence in this case, if it becomes easier to sue non-profit board members as it has been to sue manufacturers, then it will have an immensely chilling effect. Having served on the board of many organizations, a fair number have someone out there in opposition, whether religious or non-religious organization. If suing board members becomes a tool, it will scare away volunteers. Even if found innocent, the time, money, and the stress of a lawsuit can be crushing.

    Lawsuits directed at board members will not fulfill the purpose of warning other boards to mind their responsibilities, it will instead make it very difficult to recruit and retain qualified and capable people. As it is already a questionable venture for many to take on the responsibility of a board for little concrete benefit, it will simply be too great a risk and to little reward.

    I’ve read a number of cases where people recommend lawsuits against churches or non-profits but I cringe at the side effects as lawsuits become more prevalent. I also may be misreading who the defendants are in this case, if so I’ll take lumps for being wrong. While I hesitate for some to take it further and create a precedent for suing board members, in this case a lawsuit directed at Gothard’s organization that effectively shut them down may well be the best medicine.

  8. @ Bill M:

    The thing I am most heartened by is that these few women are daring to take action. There is nothing more healing and noble than taking action against injustice.

    But the irony is in the “Christian world” such actions are usually couched in terms of being unforgiving and bitter. But nevermind that rotten mantra. It is always spoken to protect wrongs and evils.

    But they sure are not asking for much. I wonder about the figure.

    And in a bit of a twist of irony, board members might want to think twice about who they support as their godly leader. Gothard just ended up rich as Midas but not touched by such a lawsuit. Of course his pride might be hurt a bit but there is no way I believe his influence over that organization is out of the picture. How old is he, anyway?

    I do wonder if suing the board is the best (or only) way to get justice in this situation and send a message. Suing a religious non profit that operates as a quasi patriarchal church advisory organization might be a challenge. Paige Patterson’s attorney argued that SWBTS operated like a church and won a discrimination suit. And what is SWBTS but a religious school with secular accreditation. I always wondered about that.

    I would love to hear from any lawyers on this being a civil suit against a “religious” non profit. I do wonder how that comes into play?

    I have never served on a religious board but on others, they provided the individual board members with insurance for lawsuits.

    I am speaking strictly from a process point of view here. I would love to see that place implode. But my guess is that Gothard will only suffer his pride hurt a bit and is glad he won’t be in the dock. He has been amassing riches for decades and the board existed to do his bidding. I am sure his loyal board felt like VIP’s for many years.

  9. I don’t live to far from Big Sandy, TX where IBLP wants to relocate to. We are the closest big city nearby. I know that every year there is a big home schooling conference there and we see people from there in our town. So it makes sense that IBLP would want to move there. I have driven through Big Sandy many times. It’s sort of a rural country community. It would be a place to “hide” a lot of things.

  10. The discussion of lawsuits and non-profit boards is a difficult one. I’ve been on two religious non-profit boards (organizations, not churches), served on staff or as a consultant in several churches, and have also ended up in the past few years researching issues about the key reasons boards end up in legal problems. So, I have lots of thoughts swirling about the why or why not for lawsuits. Here’s some of that …

    FWIW, from my perspective, the systems in which this all functions for Christian churches and other organizations seem to amplify the problems. Take ECFA accreditation for example. Membership in the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability supposedly means the organization meets important qualifications for financial accountability, governance transparency, and general responsibility. These are crucial principles and practices, because U.S. registered non-profits are supposed to be constituted for public benefit.

    However, as we’ve seen in the past few years, there are churches and ministries that apparently pass ECFA standards with flying colors — but are embroiled in allegations of obfuscation instead of transparency, inurement and misuse of donated funds for the personal benefit of board members and leaders, and various forms of failure to follow civil laws and/or regulatory agency requirements. Mars Hill was one such church and … guess what … Institute in Basic Life Principles is a non-profit parachurch agency that holds ECFA membership.

    http://www.ecfa.org/MemberProfile.aspx?ID=5453

    I’ve wondered how low of a “high bar” there really is for standards in such “certifications.” Seems you could be ECFA approved, yet that has no connection to measuring how “safe” from abuse anyone is in an approved organization. And so all the commendations of high-profile people and well-placed certifying organizations don’t really seem to tell you much about what will happen to your soul, spirit, or wallet when you connect with this church or that agency.

    I see civil suits like this as an *intervention* measure for seeking justice from questionable Christian organizations, because the *prevention* systems are weak and potentially even misleading. Victims were created by unchecked malignant leaders and toxic theology inside the organization, and by failure of external agencies to measure much of what really matters in keeping people safe and exposing abuse of power.

    Maybe the potential threat of a lawsuit could have chilling effects on non-profit boards going forward. But, it seems to me that the situations of the past five years or so where there have been lawsuits pretty much all involve organizations where allegations and/or investigations show a trail of problems going back 10 to 40+ years. Mars Hill Church. Sovereign Grace Ministries. Institute in Basic Life Principles.

    These aren’t frivolous suits — like some sort of SLAPP suit to pressure boards into silence. These suits are in place because survivors reported, talked, and pled to no avail because the alleged perpetrators and perpetuators sought to silence them and continue doing exactly what they wanted. And when non-profits that were supposed to be constituted for public good apparently inflict harm instead, they need to be stopped, and either correct their course and the deep issues that caused the problems, or be dismantled. A lawsuit is perhaps a final opportunity for a board to truly listen and make things right.

  11. @ Nickname:
    I absolutely agree with you. I hope these sexual perverts lose all of their money they earned pretending that they were some sort of godly enterprise. Unfortunately in this world, it seems money is the only thing that will cause them pain. Either that or a short stint in Sing Sing with Bubba the molester as their cell mate.

  12. @ Bill M:
    Unfortunately we have only the churches to blame for the increase potential of lawsuits. I have been blogging for over 6 years. In that time, I have been shocked by the number of reports of church sex abuse of children and teens which have been covered up.

    I was startled that The Village Church would act so unjustly against Karen Hinkley. We are waiting for permission to air the next church discipline disaster. Both of these situations deserve the press they are getting and would have deserved being sued.

    In the end, all churches and ministries should rely on God to provide for them. Believe it or not, churches and faith tend to grow during times of pain and suffering far more than they do in the “fat cat” climate of 6 figure pastors and 7 figure homes and 8 figure jets.

  13. Bill Gothard is 80 or 81, I’m not sure which.

    What I would love to see happen is for him to live long enough to see his ministry empire implode all the way, his name become a byword among not only the world but the Church as well, and somehow have his assets disappear to the point of dying in relative poverty.

    The biggest thing that boggles my mind, after what I’ve learned about his teachings so far, has been the degree to which he sucked in many thousands of evangelical protestants (who ostensibly adhere to sola scriptura) with not only the legalism, but the works righteousness inherent to his theology. It has been said that what Gothard eventually produced was an evangelical Talmud, along with the barely veiled implication that all this was what Christians had to do to be right with God. Maybe if he keeps flapping his jaws about power teams and rhemas long enough, he’ll sound enough like the TBN crowd to lose whatever credibility he still had with some conservative Christians.

  14. dee wrote:

    We are waiting for permission to air the next church discipline disaster. Both of these situations deserve the press they are getting and would have deserved being sued.

    To clarify, I’m arguing specifically against suing the board except in cases where the board was acting with deliberate malfeasance. I have been privy to a large number of stories of people that have had their livelihood destroyed by frivolous lawsuits. The civil courts are a blunt and indiscriminate system, many good people have suffered due to its misuse and abuse.

  15. These women’s accusations sound very credible, and I have little doubt that there are many more like them. When the leader of an organization is a sexual pervert and abuser like Gothard, there is a strong tendency over time to make that twisted ethos part of the organizational culture. I know this because I once left a parachurch organization in which exactly this had happened. No way would I have stayed, not would anyone decent who knew what was going on. That’s what happens. Decent people leave and the rotten apples are left behind.

    The organization should be scrutinized in every way. Often where there is one brand of evil, others crop up. I’d bet dollars to doughnuts you’d find some level of financial impropriety as well.

    The thing that most amazes me is that if this was a secular organization there would likely be lawsuits in the dozens and they would be shamed and hounded into changing. Also, the plaintiff’s would surely be suing for much more than a token $50K. That is chump change. So sad that apparently the insular and sick microculture that Gothard created still lingers and seems to shield him and his organization from any real accountability.

  16. Delighted to read these young women are taking legal action. If that’s what it takes for these abusive groups to be stopped, so be it. I just wish they were suing the pants off them!

  17. It's long past time that lawsuits become a tool against corrupt organizations and ministries. Many organizations engage in their corruption knowing and expecting that they will get away with it. They talk about following scripture and use it as a weapon. In these cases they talk about how lawsuits are un-Biblical. More people need to do what these woman have done. I am glad to hear about such action, I hope they succeed and close IBLP.

  18. @ Bill M:

    I think the board here may be liable for failing to exercise its proper oversight function. I’m on the board of a tiny non-profit, the director called me yesterday and I found myself quizzing him about our outstanding liabilities. But that’s expected, especially since he wants me to become the non-profit’s treasurer. There had been enough complaints about Gothard’s behavior over the years AND Gothard was involved in covering up the sexual activities of his brother way back around 1980. Being on a board means asking questions. If the board members were lied to (which wouldn’t surprise me at all) that too will come out. But giving the board a free pass? Ah, nope.

  19. I applaud every lawsuit against abusive churches and their toxic teachings. These churches have proven time and again that they are in no way Christian and, in fact, have no moral compass at all, to the point where lawsuits are the only thing that will get them to stop abusing people.

  20. I read the story of a young girl who had been ‘groomed’ by Gothard. When she tried to tell her mother about what was happening, her own mother called her a ‘liar’. I wonder how deep the pain of these girls goes, and in how many ways their lives have been injured . . . if I were on some jury asked to consider recompense to these girls, I would ask ‘Can we award MORE than $50K ? ‘

    At the price of treatment for abused women by psychiatrists, $50K will not go very far at all.

    I am beginning to see how the more ‘isolated’ and ‘extreme’ the cults, the more evil are the goings-ons of the cult leaders, and the more victimized the young are who have been placed ‘in their care’. The sadness of this overwhelms when you think of the lost innocence of daughters given up to these fiends by patriarchal parents, who then cast their daughters off when they learn of their victimization. It is a pretty brutal world, fundamentalist patriarchy, isn’t it?

  21. The this whole situation just further depresses me, and shows how churches and para-church groups need independent oversight at levels much Higher than secular organizations. I grew up in a fundamentalist bapist and less Fundy Evangelical Free church: however, institute of basic life conflicts was Heavily pushed at the EV church… Now we find out Gothered and his oversight people were, at a minimum, very corrupt…. It makes me want to through up…

  22. Bill M wrote:

    To clarify, I’m arguing specifically against suing the board except in cases where the board was acting with deliberate malfeasance. I have been privy to a large number of stories of people that have had their livelihood destroyed by frivolous lawsuits.

    That was helpful in thinking through the problem and the implications of various solutions, including unintended consequences. The problems Gramp3 and I have observed is that the boards are too cozy with the leadership. They function to protect the leader or the institution rather than the mission and the little people, including the donors.

  23. Christiane wrote:

    I read the story of a young girl who had been ‘groomed’ by Gothard. When she tried to tell her mother about what was happening, her own mother called her a ‘liar’

    This breaks my heart. Can you imagine the anguish that daughter felt? Shame on that mother and the others in this movement who have turned a blind eye to sin.

  24. Bill M wrote:

    Yet I am very squeamish on the part of suing the board members, suing the organization is one thing, going after board members is a whole different matter.

    Bill M wrote:

    If suing board members becomes a tool, it will scare away volunteers. Even if found innocent, the time, money, and the stress of a lawsuit can be crushing.

    Lawsuits directed at board members will not fulfill the purpose of warning other boards to mind their responsibilities, it will instead make it very difficult to recruit and retain qualified and capable people. As it is already a questionable venture for many to take on the responsibility of a board for little concrete benefit, it will simply be too great a risk and to little reward.

    The fear of being sued could very well encourage board members to solve difficult problems.

    I served on the board of a nonprofit children’s organization, joining because I saw ways to make activities more child-centered and fun. Hooboy, did that group turn out to have problems! The worst was an adult volunteer with a violent temper. Over time he became obviously unstable. One ally and I worked to get him booted from our program and associated organizations—we didn’t want him to be let go quietly and join the program down the road.

    The bad dude mainly mistreated adults. We quietly let parents know that they could and should raise any concerns with any board member at any time. Despite years of parental complaints, it took some incredibly shocking behavior before this awful man was finally removed, and also disqualified from participating in related organizations.

    How did he last so long? It’s the same old story. He ingratiated himself with leaders. Leaders would watch him verbally assault an adult—including me, one time when I refused to give him money. Afterward the leaders would say, “Oh, but he would NEVER, EVER harm a child.” The leaders were convinced that his volunteer work was the only thing keeping him going—as if that justified keeping a foul-mouthed bully in their ranks. He always had a flimsy excuse; I lost track of how many of his grandmothers died. He duped the leaders into believing they could save him. I still don’t know what shenanigans enabled him to pass background checks.

    Throughout this time I always did a couple of things at our events. Because this evil maniac considered me a foe, I had my phone and keys in my pocket and a clear straight path to my car. I always stood near big men.

    And I made sure that the board itself was insured. I often had unpleasant thoughts about being sued. The idea of making a deposition helped to encourage me to work against this awful man. I knew what I would say.

  25. @ Bill M:

    Bill, I suggest you go to Recovering Grace and read some of these women’s stories and the trail of attempts to communiucate with BG and the board.

  26. @ Gram3:
    Thanks gram, unintended consequences is a good way to put it. It is always interesting to go against the flow sometimes. That may be the major problem with many board members, they don’t like to take the relational risk to confront their peers.

    So just to make it clear to everyone, I’m not some babe in the woods, I’m well aware of boards that take their marching orders from management, profit or non profit. I’m also not minimizing the suffering, I’ve read hundreds of stories, I’ve witnessed some first hand, protested, and resigned when I couldn’t change the culture. Just please consider that lawsuits directed specifically against board members, not the organization, are not as clean a solution as you may think they are.

  27. @ Bill M:
    In this situation, the board was acting in that way. So was the elder board at The Village Church. TVC was destroying Karen’s life by their pathological actions.

  28. Bill M wrote:

    That may be the major problem with many board members, they don’t like to take the relational risk to confront their peers.

    Yes, and also there are some who like the recognition of being some kind of somebody. My caution is a very practical one. We were in a “situation” where, under this scenario, we could have been sued as part of a non-profit board *even though* we were the ones speaking out against the things which we believed were wrong. After living through that experience, I cannot imagine how much worse it would have been to have been slapped with a lawsuit and potential judgment when we made every effort to do the right thing. There is no way I would subject myself to the financial liability, so I would decline to serve. The rubber-stampers who would be willing to go along to get along would likely be the ones willing to take that risk. I think your standard of malfeasance or negligence might be a safeguard against that kind of thing, but I am not a lawyer nor am I someone who has been abused in the way that these young women were, and that makes a difference, I think, in the way people might see this. Gothardism has been a plague on conservative Christianity, including the remnants of Gothardism that persist in the consciousness of the church like the idea of spiritual heads and human spiritual authorities. And the legalism supported by Gothard the Fabulist’s misuse of the text. Just like Piper who has adopted many of his ideas if not his actual terms. Equally a fabulist.

  29. Bill M wrote:

    To clarify, I’m arguing specifically against suing the board except in cases where the board was acting with deliberate malfeasance. I have been privy to a large number of stories of people that have had their livelihood destroyed by frivolous lawsuits. The civil courts are a blunt and indiscriminate system, many good people have suffered due to its misuse and abuse.

    Let’s not forget about the internal investigation. First off, who does that? If an organization is seeking the truth, it’s important to get outside, neutral investigators who are experts on sex abuse cases. Secondly, the results of this investigation were not released publicly. Why is that? Third, what kind of investigation fails to interview victims?

    What kind of organization would have such a sham investigation? The only kind I can think of is one that is trying to cover up issues.

  30. dee wrote:

    So was the elder board at The Village Church. TVC was destroying Karen’s life by their pathological actions.

    Definitely. And I will not pretend I was not disappointed when she decided not to press the issue legally. I wonder how many individuals were on the Gothard board for these many years and turned a blind eye or made excuses or accused the victims? Gothard’s craziness has been recognized by many conservative Christians for a long, long time. But so has Doug Wilson’s, yet deceived people still rally around him for reasons that escape me.

  31. Julie Anne Smith wrote:

    Secondly, the results of this investigation were not released publicly. Why is that?

    I don’t know. There is only one good reason, IMO, for not releasing limited portions of the investigation, and that would be to guard the privacy of victims who do not wish to become public figures. ISTM that your suggestion of getting a neutral third-party is a really good one that a wise board should consider carefully. Somebody like Boz and *not* one of the Usual Apologists for Leaders.

  32. Eagle wrote:

    Many organizations engage in their corruption knowing and expecting that they will get away with it. They talk about following scripture and use it as a weapon. In these cases they talk about how lawsuits are un-Biblical.

    The dilemma is that lawsuits are unbiblical. If not expressly forbidden in so many words, apostolic teaching to the Corinthians was to avoid them, and for very good reasons.

    Now the State is there to punish the guilty, and it is right to try individuals for criminal actions. Somebody has to initiate those actions. But it does bother me the ease at which some Christians seem to think going to court is justified – following the suing culture around them.

    There is no easy answer to this.

  33. Some times I wonder if these accusations are ‘pointless’. Meaning, women find fault with little imperfections of christian based ministry but absolutely NO fault at all with secular organizations like PLANNED PARENTHOOD….or even deeper still. There is no problem with molesting practices done by ‘midwives’ or ‘doctors’ who are supposed proffessionals….though nature and reality of even america’s ‘patriarchial’ origins shows us that women in absolutely poor countries give birth perfectly fine without so much man handling…..and gave birth in cabins with no assistance…..women DEALT with problems….they didn’t sue their way through problems….

    public schools hand out birth control pills and teach women to have multiple sex partners…. but anything ‘christian’ based and a mere to touch is ‘too far’….public schools….don’t sue….bible based….’sue it’….

    Seems to be an oxymoron effect.

    I don’t know the inner details of what actually went on, and I do not purchase supplies through this ministry due to extreme expense and drive all over the world mentality. I also know that the founding fathers like presidents etc. had many racism problems….. native american and african american tensions….This ministry highly praises the founders of america….though like many people I still do have a love for this nation and songs like ‘battle hymn of the republic’…I just wouldn’t want to use that particular ministry.

  34. To be clear…. it is terribly difficult and next to impossible to claim that IBLP is better or worse than a typical public school structure….. Josh Duggar….was one man….. out of 42,000,000 + Who were publically schooled and visited ashley madison website. It is like saying….oh ok….you ate apples and you have a down syndrome child, therefore apples (like eve ate an apple off of a tree….the forbidden fruit) are the cause for you getting cursed with a down syndrome child. Every day….millions of ‘troubled youth’ are sent to public schools from terrible homes….to get ‘repaired in behaviour’….. and they are taught ‘sexually perverted’ things by distraught teachers…. or manipulated to believe they should accept such lifestyles….some do not FALL VICTIM (as prime example that such a man-made structure works)….while there are those few who were mildly….to some severely injured….

    It appears that it is the ‘man made’ structure of ministry…. not the biblical principles taught by this ministry that is the problem.

  35. Ken wrote:

    But it does bother me the ease at which some Christians seem to think going to court is justified – following the suing culture around them.

    What ‘ease’ of justification? This article is noteworthy precisely because it is extremely unusual for Christians to bring suit against a church group.

  36. My daughter, Christy, pointed something out to me last night. While the laws are definitely different in Texas, where IBLP is going to move their headquarters, lets not forget that Texas is where Warren Jeffs (Mormon Prophet) was put in jail for life for child molestation. I guarantee my State will be watching this carefully. The local news stations will have a lot of stories on this.

  37. roebuck wrote:

    What ‘ease’ of justification? This article is noteworthy precisely because it is extremely unusual for Christians to bring suit against a church group.

    Because if they do, deep in their hindbrain they KNOW they’re risking Eternal Hell by raising hand against the ManaGAWD.

    “TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!!! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!!!!!”
    — Benny Hinn

  38. Ken wrote:

    Now the State is there to punish the guilty, and it is right to try individuals for criminal actions.

    But when the State is in the pocket of the ManaGAWD?

    op cit Bob Greiner, ToJo, and the others. Code of Blue.

  39. ok….the iblp is an ‘institutional structure’….. the moon and sun and stars move in a certain order (just as we as humans are creatures of nature orders)….. so the beef is in the pudding and it shouldn’t be. I do not understand how a place that is willing to print FOR its customers something that praises good character..http://store.iblp.org/product/CC.html

    .can get so corrupt….internally….. just as equally as corrupt as all the other man-made institutions…..public schools, private schools, boarding schools, nursinghomes, hospitals so on and so forth…

    ok….catholic churches also have a structure….the pope and the vatican….. yes these are all institutions….. even ‘facebook’ has a structure…

    it makes me wonder is the problem really truly the ‘ministry’ or is the person accusing…..and is confused….like an alzheimers patient that strips naked and thinks its ok to sit on street corner….yet angrilly throwing accusations. who knows….what goes through people’s dreams at night.

    I mean if it wasn’t full flegged ISIS style rape….but a mere brush and seductive glance….who are they tryinng to fool when it comes to money and who will be their next victim….or what institution will be the next victim….. There is a reason why some nursinghomes are glad to see ‘lawyer happy’ residents die or leave.

  40. harley wrote:

    My daughter, Christy, pointed something out to me last night. While the laws are definitely different in Texas, where IBLP is going to move their headquarters, lets not forget that Texas is where Warren Jeffs (Mormon Prophet) was put in jail for life for child molestation. I guarantee my State will be watching this carefully. The local news stations will have a lot of stories on this.

    I hope so. I’d be suspicious of the fundamentalist Baptists being regarded differently, from the fundamentalist Mormons. Not overly optimistic IBLP won’t get a free pass.

  41. Ken wrote:

    But it does bother me the ease at which some Christians seem to think going to court is justified – following the suing culture around them.

    I have been a Christian for 34 years and, on a personal level, I don’t know one Christian who has sued another Christian or a Christian organization. The reason we see some abuse victims suing now (when they find courage to speak) is because they cannot now bring “criminal” charges against their perpetrators as the statute of limitations has run out.

  42. Just dropping in to say “hi” to you all. They are still trying to figure out what is wrong with my stepfather. I am hoping to send him to rehab after he is worked up to see if he can start walking again. 6 weeks ago, he was driving his car, going out to lunch and even getting pedicures for his”big toes” as he likes to call them. He had trouble bending to do it himself.

    Now, he is not walking, He has periods of confusion and is slurring his words which makes him difficult to understand since he speaks with a strong French accent. As a child, Lou lived in the woods outside of Paris when the Nazis invaded. He was often hungry and cold but he evaded the concentration camps. Lou comes from a Jewish family.

    He came to the US when he was 21 and served as a mechanic in the USAF for @25 years. He and my mother met 10 years ago after my father died and Lou’s wife had passed away. They have had a wonderful 10 years of marriage. They live 1 1/2 miles from me.

    On top of this, my mother in law who lives on Cape Cod has been diagnosed with lung cancer which has metastasized to the liver. We will most likely be moving her down here so I can help care for her. There is no cure for her situation.

    Needless to say, the next year will be filled with care taking. I am so grateful for this blog community and am glad it is something I can do as I work around the needs of my family.

    Deb will post again today and I hope to get back to writing on Friday.

    You are all so wonderful and enrich my life.

  43. @ Mae:
    I recall reading a email article by Bill Gothard that stated something about ‘the menonites’…… clearly people are too good at looking at the outward appearance and not the inward appearance…..the mennonites are more like quakers…..not like Warren jeffs…..mormon….. I was raised practically by mennonites and good friends with them through an institutional structure……THE PUBLIC SCHOOL…….. that is why I wonder of these accusations are legit….. or if its silly little girls not admitting they need redemption through christ….

    I’ve seen more girls victim of ‘birthcontrol’ and adultery through public school institutions than anything. The native american women in america….they attend public school…. their voice……NONE….. especially if they are victim of rape……so the point about modest dressing ‘fundamental baptist’ is equal in behaviour to warren jeffs is a very unenlightened statement indeed.

  44. call a ginger wrote:

    that is why I wonder of these accusations are legit….. or if its silly little girls not admitting they need redemption through christ….

    You are saying some really bizarre things. You are not showing much empathy for women who, as naive teenagers (naive because of their upbringing), were abused by a man and his organization.

  45. @ dee:

    You are dealing with so much right now! I hope you have help and support. I will be praying for extra strength, peace, and wisdom for you and your family.

  46. @ Bridget:

    bizzare is not seeing how even in the messed up condition of the duggar family…. Jill, to Jordayn were actually given a life…. people seem to key in on the ‘bad’ in people…. not seeding the good…..of GOD and his glory.

    I expect rebellion in large ‘fundamental baptist’ families….. you are BLIND and bizzare….if you believe MONEY and LAWYERS solve human problems….. a ‘brush of the cheek’…..50,000 and lawyer….. what? if a nurse sued every male patient that she had to encounter that sexually made odd comments or brushed her cheek…. institutions would be defeated entirely!

    I believe these just may be self-serving girls of folly…..they should work as a cna or a nurse in an institution for a while….preferably a SECULAR one and see if they like it….

  47. dee wrote:

    He and my mother met 10 years ago after my father died and Lou’s wife had passed away. They have had a wonderful 10 years of marriage. They live 1 1/2 miles from me.

    Praying for you Dee, and your Stepfather and MIL. What a marvelous gift the Lord gave to Lou when he met your Mom and got you as a daughter.

  48. Bill M wrote:

    Just please consider that lawsuits directed specifically against board members, not the organization, are not as clean a solution as you may think they are.

    Gram3 wrote:

    After living through that experience, I cannot imagine how much worse it would have been to have been slapped with a lawsuit and potential judgment when we made every effort to do the right thing. There is no way I would subject myself to the financial liability, so I would decline to serve.

    I always thought that board members are insured (or can be insured) for protection in the event of such lawsuits. The cost of the insurance would be responsibility of the organization. Right?

  49. when a very young girl is abused by a powerful theological leader, this is NOT a small matter, no

    if people in an organization KNEW Gothard was preying on young girls, and they did nothing, they ALSO are complicit in the abuse

    as for those who excuse the abuse of young girls as ‘minor’, I can imagine only that they are troubled in more ways than I can imagine . . . either by being themselves traumatized by abuse and in denial, or so far from empathy with victims that they have no comprehension of the degree of suffering endured by those innocents who were ‘used’ and put aside, even by their own families . . .

    one hears about the patriarchy of extreme Islam and how rape victims are executed, having been ‘blamed’ for what they endured . . . so it must be that in ‘christian’ patriarchy, there exists a code of blaming and persecuting victims while protecting the perpetrators . . . and so evil exists in all societies where perverted loyalties permit its presence

  50. Sorry I am making so much comments….. but seriously…. the condition of ‘institution’ and actual need for people….needs level headed understanding…. As husband works in an ‘institution’ as nurse at nursing home….. he has worked with men and women patients. some of whom have ‘fundamental baptist’ backgrounds and beliefs. He will tell me that the SECULAR or DRUNKARD type men and even women are more difficult patients to help and comfort than those who have at least a little bible study in their system.

    a cna in a secular institution that has to leave work with a BROKEN arm because a wild purposefully fornicating out of control man who is clearly ‘not born again’ (yet she won’t sue her company institution that she worked for) it far more dangerous than a mere brush on a cheek by an interesting man in at least somewhat of a biblical frame of structure.

    As I’ve said before…. perhaps these statements and accusations are true….perhaps these girls were OVERPROTECTED….leading them to believe a ‘glance’ was evil….and suitable for lawyer manipulations.

    why didn’t the other duggar girls come out and share their abuses earlier on….if even they felt it would be appropriate to do so???? I don’t even think they originally felt it would be appropriate to share information like that with the public…

    I don’t know….. I have hard time understanding why feminist think it is ok to manipulate money out of men…. I went to college and went to classes with all males and just me….female.

  51. @ Christiane:

    have you opened your eyes to the fact that secular society has MORE perversions than church structure institutions??? a muslim style structure (yes I have middle eastern relatives) is a structure DESIGNED by women….. in fact one of muhammed’s wives was OLDER than muhammed himself.

    women dress modestly assuming that men have NO self control what so ever….. but really…..the unsaved man….. is the problem. the unsaved woman can enhance and perpetuate the problem of humanity. If a woman sue a homeless man be cause he looks ugly and he sits on her street corner out side her pink house….. she claims she a ‘victim’…..give me a break.

  52. dee wrote:

    Now, he is not walking, He has periods of confusion and is slurring his words which makes him difficult to understand since he speaks with a strong French accent. As a child, Lou lived in the woods outside of Paris when the Nazis invaded. He was often hungry and cold but he evaded the concentration camps. Lou comes from a Jewish family.

    Oh wow. I love to read and listen to stories of everyday people who lived through these times.

    God’s blessings and comfort to you all.

  53. call a ginger wrote:

    If a woman sue a homeless man be cause he looks ugly and he sits on her street corner out side her pink house….. she claims she a ‘victim’…..give me a break.

    This is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing Gothard and his (Christian) institution’s responses to what he has done. We are not denying that it happens in other institutions, or that lawsuits are also brought in other cases as they should be.

    What you are doing is trivializing and minimizing what these girls experienced under Gothards care. I am not going to read all the other issues you keep trying to divert to.

  54. Joe2 wrote:

    I always thought that board members are insured (or can be insured) for protection in the event of such lawsuits. The cost of the insurance would be responsibility of the organization. Right?

    Yes. Most churches carry this insuranse. For their board members and/or official representatives.

  55. Bridget wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:
    I always thought that board members are insured (or can be insured) for protection in the event of such lawsuits. The cost of the insurance would be responsibility of the organization. Right?
    Yes. Most churches carry this insuranse. For their board members and/or official representatives.

    . . . insurance for their . . .

    Spell check on this Android has a mind of its own.

  56. Joe2 wrote:

    I always thought that board members are insured (or can be insured) for protection in the event of such lawsuits. The cost of the insurance would be responsibility of the organization. Right?

    Our board was insured, as locally required. When an ally and I worked to have an unstable, vile-tempered volunteer removed from our children’s program and related entities, we did so in the knowledge that we were financially shielded.

    We were not, of course, shielded from the distress that a lawsuit might have caused. Having experienced court on unrelated matters, I knew what a suit might be like.

    We stayed on the board despite much stress and a few threats. The man was eventually removed with ample documentation. No lawsuit was brought. The organization recovered and continues to serve children today. We paid an emotional price, but the system worked.

  57. Deb wrote:

    @ call a ginger:

    Please be advised that your comments should relate to the post topic.

    Still up in the air whether Call a Ginger is Meat in Meatspace or a chatbot.

  58. call a ginger wrote:

    I don’t know….. I have hard time understanding why feminist think it is ok to manipulate money out of men….

    I hardly believe the women suing Gothard’s institution are femenists. And even if some of them now claim the title femenist, that has no bearing on the case or the facts of what Gothard did. Nor does it make them less worthy to call him and his institution out for what happened to them.

    BTW – “femenist” has differing meanings to people. You seem to be using the word in a derogatory manner. Maybe you also believe women should not vote, own assets, have their own checking accounts, or rule their own bodies. These are all rights you enjoy because femenists fought for them.

  59. roebuck and others wrote to the effect of

    @ gall in grace [anag]:
    How about we just stay on the topic? You are going all over the place, and it’s hard to know just what you’re trying to say.

    It’s a computer-program, people!

    At least, that’s a working hypothesis supported by the evidence.

  60. P.S. Sorry – just notice HUG and Bridget’s comments to the same effect. Just back in…

  61. @ Bridget:

    yes I AM VERY AWARE that there were sexual perversion problems in the begining of style IBLP institution. If you don’t know a native american and understand the boarding school era….. THEY too (public schools around the usa) started their institution with sexual perversions….

    Now should all women go back and sue their educational institution because it is what appropriate ‘feminist’s’ do? Every perverted nonsense study that comes out of seventeen magazine…. the rate of perversions coming out of a seventeen magazine is more than likely lower than perversion coming out of a dollar store bible. Maybe these girls should sue the ‘DOLLAAAAAR STORE’

  62. Joe2 wrote:

    I always thought that board members are insured (or can be insured) for protection in the event of such lawsuits. The cost of the insurance would be responsibility of the organization. Right?

    It depends on the organization, for me it has been about half where the board is insured, some are low budget organizations run on a shoestring. Board insurance may mitigate but does not relieve the trauma of being sued.

  63. @ Ken:
    Paul does not forbid lawsuits which are an appeal to a judge for justice. That is what Moses did in the theocracy and what Paul did as a citizen when he was accused. What Paul was saying is that it should not be necessary *if* a church body/organization is functioning as it should. Paul said that the fact that people were going outside the church for justice is evidence that their Christian church/organization has failed. It was a commentary on their failure and not a command to forgo the justice system that is available to victims. Obviously, the organizations we discuss here have failed, and the victims are not violating God’s intention by seeking justice where it can be found.

  64. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    roebuck and others wrote to the effect of
    @ gall in grace [anag]:
    How about we just stay on the topic? You are going all over the place, and it’s hard to know just what you’re trying to say.

    It’s a computer-program, people!
    At least, that’s a working hypothesis supported by the evidence.

    That would actually be a bit of a relief 😉

  65. @ dee:
    Thanks so much for the stories about your stepfather and mother and mother-in-law. Many of us have been where you are, and we will be praying for your strength and wisdom during your family’s difficult times.

  66. @ Joe2:
    Insurance is available, AFAIK. Not all boards are insured (or at least one was not in our experience), though they should be, IMO.

  67. Gram3 wrote:

    @ dee:
    Thanks so much for the stories about your stepfather and mother and mother-in-law. Many of us have been where you are, and we will be praying for your strength and wisdom during your family’s difficult times.

    Yes. This. Praying for you Dee.

  68. Abi Miah wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    @ dee:
    Thanks so much for the stories about your stepfather and mother and mother-in-law. Many of us have been where you are, and we will be praying for your strength and wisdom during your family’s difficult times.
    Yes. This. Praying for you Dee.

    Definitely praying for you and beloved parents.

  69. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It’s a computer-program, people!

    At least, that’s a working hypothesis supported by the evidence.

    Well spotted, Nick, et al …

    As a repeat, you posted this comment several weeks ago when a similar series of chatbotty comments by C.A.G. appeared on another post here at TWW. You gave a description of what it is, how it works, and signs that it’s likely from the Matrix.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/10/05/would-you-say-no-i-might-was-the-oregon-shooter-a-persecutor-of-christians-or-delusional/comment-page-1/#comment-223376

  70. Gram3 wrote:

    Paul does not forbid lawsuits which are an appeal to a judge for justice.

    I would agree. I know of one time that some in the faith community worked to bring resolution between two believers pursuing legal recourse. They were in the same community but different churches (that framing reveals a lot doesn’t it). They were assisted in settling it out of court. It would be safe to say the party that wronged the other was “assisted” in a different sense of the word.
    Unfortunately there is no similar agency by which to bring a major non-profit or “church” to heel.

  71. Or a character from South Park.

    (“Call a ginger” keeps reminding me of that South Park episode on racism towards “gingers” — flip the first three letters of “ginger” for Parker & Stone’s inside-joke in the title.)

  72. And “Jinjur” (alternate spelling) was an extreme-feminist activist character in one of L Frank Baum’s sequels to The Wizard of Oz. Led a feminist revolution in Oz with much spoof and parody.

  73. Tort lawyers don’t do jack unless there’s lotsa dinero to be had. IBLP must be pretty far up the food chain if Gibbs is gonna put time and energy into going after them.

  74. call a ginger wrote:

    the unsaved woman can enhance and perpetuate the problem of humanity.

    I don’t think the Bible teaches that at all.

    Jesus taught that it is sin in a man’s heart that makes him sin, which would include lust. It doesn’t matter what or how unsaved women dress – the responsibility for one’s thought life is with that individual, within him or her, not from without. That is what Christ taught.

  75. Daisy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    a chatbot.

    Didn’t the owners of Ashley Madison use those to sucker men?

    No, those were Fembots 🙂
    “SHAGADELIC, MAN!”

  76. Call a Ginger has been banned from TWW. She/He was banned using another name, IP, and email about 8 months ago.

    She came back using another name, IP and email to slip on through. However, within short order, we suspected they were one and the same. Today we were able to verify it.

    I apologize for allowing her comments to come through as I did the last time she was here. Thankfully, Deb called me at the hospital today and we were able to block her/him/whatever.

  77. Gram3 wrote:

    Paul does not forbid lawsuits which are an appeal to a judge for justice.

    When church leaders/followers quote Corinthians they tend to leave out the part about it being “trivial” matters. But they usually quote: Why not be wronged?

  78. Lydia wrote:

    When church leaders/followers quote Corinthians they tend to leave out the part about it being “trivial” matters. But they usually quote: Why not be wronged?

    Because THEY Personally Benefit from it.

  79. Interesting discussion about Gothard. There were a few things going on.

    First of all Gothard was the group’s “pope” with no real checks/balances and could also be called a personality cult.

    Gothard was the group’s product. Thus people who were employed there I am sure didn’t want to see or expose the group’s issues and risk their employment if the sin and hypocrisy of Gothard was exposed.

    Like other leaders Gothard didn’t practice what he taught. A good book exposing Gothard is:

    http://www.amazon.com/Matter-Basic-Principles-Gothard-Christian/dp/0974252808

  80. dee wrote:

    Call a Ginger has been banned from TWW. She/He was banned using another name, IP, and email about 8 months ago.
    She came back using another name, IP and email to slip on through.

    Please don’t go digging it up if you haven’t already – you and Debs work hard enough on this ministry* as it is – but I’d be curious to know the progression of comments last time around. I.e., I’d be curious to test the chatbot hypothesis.

    * For such we should call it

  81. Several months back, Deb and Dee did a post about this same preacher and his wife.

    Here is an update to their story:

    Singapore Convicts Megachurch Leaders of Fraudulently Funding Evangelism
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/october/singapore-convicts-evangelism-kong-hee-sun-ho-city-harvest.html

    “During Sunday service, pastor [Kong Hee] apologizes after court rejects how building funds were diverted to wife’s pop music career.”
    ——————
    His wife did a music video where all I can remember of it is her screaming over and over again: “China wine! China wine! China wine!”

  82. It disturbs me as an attorney and as a Christian when one claiming my faith uses Paul’s advice to the Corinthians about lawsuits as a hammer to prevent justice from being done in the courts.

    The Lord said clearly to preserve justice and do what is right, pleading the cases of those, such widows and orphans, who cannot defend themselves. It seems that a young woman groomed and cultivated for the illicit sexual abuse of a cult leader would seem to me to be very much in a category like widow or orphan. Paul was addressing a specific situation where there was a catastrophic failure of Christian fellowship in a particular church at a particular time, and he cited their litigiousness–among myriad other faults–telling them to try to work it out within the church, which at least had a system to address such issues. That is a circumstance wholly different from the abuse of a young woman, not sharing a particular fellowship with her abuser, given no legitimate recourse, with no third party available within a cohesive Christian community to give a disinterested adjudication.

    So when I see a person turn Paul’s criticism of the Corinthians and their litigious nature into a “Thou shalt not sue a fellow believer” (assuming the defendants are believers, an assumption I am not willing to take as given), with the understanding that it will operate to work a great injustice upon the abused, but they hold onto it, “upholding the integrity of scripture”, I feel I am reading the very words of a First Century Pharisee, as if they’d come forward in time, phylacteries, tassels and all.

  83. Bridget wrote:

    You are saying some really bizarre things. You are not showing much empathy for women who, as naive teenagers (naive because of their upbringing), were abused by a man and his organization.

    More than bizarre, I would say, “ginger” seems to be trying to defend an evil man’s indefensible perversions.

  84. Christiane wrote:

    when a very young girl is abused by a powerful theological leader, this is NOT a small matter, no
    if people in an organization KNEW Gothard was preying on young girls, and they did nothing, they ALSO are complicit in the abuse

    Thank you, Christiane, for standing up & speaking out on this very important matter.

  85. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Deb wrote:

    @ call a ginger:

    Please be advised that your comments should relate to the post topic.

    Still up in the air whether Call a Ginger is Meat in Meatspace or a chatbot.

    Indeed….

  86. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Ken:
    Paul does not forbid lawsuits which are an appeal to a judge for justice. That is what Moses did in the theocracy and what Paul did as a citizen when he was accused. What Paul was saying is that it should not be necessary *if* a church body/organization is functioning as it should. Paul said that the fact that people were going outside the church for justice is evidence that their Christian church/organization has failed. It was a commentary on their failure and not a command to forgo the justice system that is available to victims. Obviously, the organizations we discuss here have failed, and the victims are not violating God’s intention by seeking justice where it can be found.

    Amen!

  87. Gram3 wrote:

    @ dee:
    Thanks so much for the stories about your stepfather and mother and mother-in-law. Many of us have been where you are, and we will be praying for your strength and wisdom during your family’s difficult times.

    Yes, indeed!

  88. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Call a Ginger has been banned from TWW. She/He was banned using another name, IP, and email about 8 months ago.
    She came back using another name, IP and email to slip on through.

    Please don’t go digging it up if you haven’t already – you and Debs work hard enough on this ministry* as it is – but I’d be curious to know the progression of comments last time around. I.e., I’d be curious to test the chatbot hypothesis.

    * For such we should call it

    I think you’re right.
    Oddly, I detected some little hints about this, without knowing enough about computers to test such things. I have run into some of the peculiarities in phrasing before (in real life). They all emanated from a VERY patriarchal group in the American Midwest…..Just saying.

  89. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Thanks for digging that one out, Brad!

    I followed your link to my original comment, mainly because of an infantile and vain love of the sound of my own voice, of course. But I also noticed that the chatbot had detected my referring to it as a chatbot and “replied” with a reference to “mathematical atheism”. It’s not difficult to imagine how this is done – the software parses comments for combinations of its own name and words such as “chatbot”, “computer program”, etc. Its reply was, I think, an attempt to salvage a draw!

  90. Notice, for instance, that the chatbot replied to my comment on the thread Brad cited. But on this thread, when I called it out as a chatbot, I didn’t use its name but referred to it as “gall in grace [anag]”. It didn’t spot the reference; whereas a human troll might have done.

  91. roebuck wrote:

    What ‘ease’ of justification? This article is noteworthy precisely because it is extremely unusual for Christians to bring suit against a church group.

    May I just clarify what I mean. In the other thread about Mrs Pfeil suing agaisnt her church alleging wrongful church discipline, I was I believe the only one who questioned whether in the light of 1 Cor she should really be doing this at all. I don’t think anyone came back at me for this. Don’t we need to be careful about dragging church failures throught the courts?

    The issue may be different if the leadership of a church has been involved in criminal activity, but then the police and organs of State are there to deal with this, and it is legitimate to involve them.

  92. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    here endeth Nick’s Chatbot Rabbit-Trail.

    I don’t believe ‘Nick Bulbeck’ actually exists. He is simply an idea in the mind of a computer programmer …

  93. call a ginger wrote:

    @ Mae:
    I recall reading a email article by Bill Gothard that stated something about ‘the menonites’…… clearly people are too good at looking at the outward appearance and not the inward appearance…..the mennonites are more like quakers…..not like Warren jeffs…..mormon….. I was raised practically by mennonites and good friends with them through an institutional structure……THE PUBLIC SCHOOL…….. that is why I wonder of these accusations are legit….. or if its silly little girls not admitting they need redemption through christ….
    I’ve seen more girls victim of ‘birthcontrol’ and adultery through public school institutions than anything. The native american women in america….they attend public school…. their voice……NONE….. especially if they are victim of rape……so the point about modest dressing ‘fundamental baptist’ is equal in behaviour to warren jeffs is a very unenlightened statement indeed.

    I don’t think this person is a troll. I think they have some serious issues.

  94. I don’t know anything about chatbots or the like. I guess I am not that computer literate. But my first thoughts about “Ginger” were that he was a male pedophile or a molester or someone who has a really bad opinion of women. We all know women who have been sexually abused. We know women who are verbally abused. We know the toll it takes on them. Why it takes years for them to come public with it. So whether it’s 5 women who sue IBLP or 50 women who sue them, their voices should be heard. The time for standing by and not doing anything or listening to women has come to an end.

  95. Law Prof wrote:

    It disturbs me as an attorney and as a Christian when one claiming my faith uses Paul’s advice to the Corinthians about lawsuits as a hammer to prevent justice from being done in the courts.

    The Lord said clearly to preserve justice and do what is right, pleading the cases of those, such widows and orphans, who cannot defend themselves.

    Thanks for your insightful comment, Law Prof. This thread has been a helpful discussion on points about civil suits, non-profit boards, etc. It’s sparked my thinking about patterns that seem to be showing up from the past 5 years or so of abuse survivor lawsuits against alleged abusive individuals and their organization boards — Sovereign Grace Ministries, Vision Forum, Mars Hill Church, Institute in Basic Life Principles, etc.

    Your comment hits on what’s behind one of those trends I believe I’ve noticed, of supposed fulfillment of one principle by negation of others.

    These kinds of Pharisaic, “bounded choice” / “closed system” paradigms are the epitome of either/or thinking. It’s *always* this-or-that, us-or-them, black-or-white, winners-or-losers. It’s like a triple espresso shot of thinking that always divides things apart and picks just one. There is no room for complexity or seeming contradiction, for both/and co-existence, for paradox of principles. So, if Scripture talks about two related concepts (like avoiding lawsuits and seeking justice), but it’s messy to deal with how they interconnect, then this type of processing requires valuing or validating just one.

    So, they overlook (perhaps even block out?) passages in the same Bible, many even by the same Apostle Paul, that talk about obeying civil authorities and being subject to the civil law. Again, with their either/or thinking, they choose the gnat and ignore the camel.

    Back to patterns and trends in the last five years or so of lawsuits against alleged abuse perpetrators: How many leaders/board members seem to have strong disregard for obeying the civil law and fulfilling regulatory requirements (i.e., like IRS requirements that non-profits operate in the public interest and not for personal benefit of the directors)?

    What are the allegations against leaders about neglecting the laws of the land or outright disobeying them, while misusing theology to justify their position and in silencing victims and dissenters? From recent cases and lawsuits, I recall seeing words like:

    * Negligence.
    * Defamation.
    * Harassment.
    * Stalking.
    * Failure to report known/suspected sexual abuse.
    * Inurement (misuse of funds for the benefit of organization leaders).
    * Failure to spend donated funds for designated purpose.
    * Conspiring to cover-up.

    Kind of ironic when religious authoritarians consider themselves outside the realm of civil authorities. But faith is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card, and their truncated theology doesn’t trump civil obedience.

  96. Mae wrote:

    I don’t know much about, “chatbots”. Troll or computer,the contents of the posts were disturbing.

    I remain convinced that “call a ginger” is not a real person. However, that doesn’t invalidate your point about the contents of the posts. A spambot is written by someone who gives it a certain vocabulary, set of stock phrases and underlying rules on how to function in a discussion thread. Who came up with “call a ginger”, I don’t know, and I’m not sure what constructive agenda (s)he could have had.

  97. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Kind of ironic when religious authoritarians consider themselves outside the realm of civil authorities. But faith is not a get-out-of-jail-free-card, and their truncated theology doesn’t trump civil obedience.

    As you imply, the one common thread behind all the interpretations of the scriptures by abusive leaders, whichever of the two either/or’s they choose, is that the choice they make will invariably be the one that most efficiently serves their self interest.

    If it favors a church leader to make Paul’s harangue to a particular dysfunctional church into a absolute and overarching truth: “Christians may not sue another Christian individual or organization under any circumstances,” then that is precisely the interpretation that will be given. So when a church leader abuses members of the body, using young women as a sexual playground, or slanders the reputation of the one who exposes the abuse, it serves the leader’s best interests to squelch all legal avenues available to the abused and slandered.

    But at the moment the leader believes it will serve their self interest, “preserve justice” will become the phrase of the day and enable the leader to sue whomever they please whenever they please.

    It’s all about cynical self interest. And that is one thing you can safely say Jesus was never about.

  98. NJ wrote:

    Bill Gothard is 80 or 81, I’m not sure which.

    Isn’t this called Dirty Old Man?

    “HEY BEAVIS! ‘GOT HARD’! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”

  99. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    It’s even more pathetic if Call a Ginger IS Meat in Meatspace.

    I mean, how big a loser do you have to be to fail a Turing Test?

  100. Law Prof wrote:

    the one common thread behind all the interpretations of the scriptures by abusive leaders, whichever of the two either/or’s they choose, is that the choice they make will invariably be the one that most efficiently serves their self interest.

    Which is what I’ve said all along concerning Mark Driscoll and his warped view of The Songs. Yes, I know. Off-topic. But this sort of Bible interpretation is/was/will be part of all their teachings in everyway.

  101. call a ginger wrote:

    I recall reading a email article by Bill Gothard that stated something about ‘the menonites’…… clearly people are too good at looking at the outward appearance and not the inward appearance…..the mennonites are more like quakers…..not like Warren jeffs…..mormon….. I was raised practically by mennonites and good friends with them through an institutional structure……THE PUBLIC SCHOOL…….. that is why I wonder of these accusations are legit….. or if its silly little girls not admitting they need redemption through christ….
    I’ve seen more girls victim of ‘birthcontrol’ and adultery through public school institutions than anything. The native american women in america….they attend public school…. their voice……NONE….. especially if they are victim of rape……so the point about modest dressing ‘fundamental baptist’ is equal in behaviour to warren jeffs is a very unenlightened statement indeed.

    Please tell me that people on this level of reasoning and writing do not try to home school? I wonder, since Call a Ginger mentions public school in a negative way.

  102. Hey Wartburg Divaaas!!!! (Jumping up and down waving my arms)……

    GUESS who just came out with a new book on what the Bible has to say about Marriage and Divorce?

    Go ahead….guess. Guessguessguess.

    Yup! *MICHAEL PEARL*.

    Get your Amazon Prime on and please review this book!