"On Sunday night, an ultra-secretive New York church turned into a living hell…"
We have been following the awful story that is emerging from a church in upstate New York, and we are absolutely horrified! Yesterday we received an e-mail from a new reader encouraging us to cover it in a post, and we are honoring that request. In case you missed the news coverage, here is an overview of what occurred according to The Daily Beast:
On Sunday night, an ultra-secretive New York church turned into a living hell. Two teenage brothers were brutally beaten—one of them to death—by their own family members and fellow church-goers who wanted them to “confess” to their sins, authorities say.
Police charged the boys’ parents with manslaughter and four other participants with assault in the chilling incident that killed Lucas Leonard, 19, and left his 17-year-old brother, Christopher Leonard, in serious condition.
The New York Daily News filed this shocking report. (Trigger alert) See video in the article.
As the authorities began to investigate this teen's death, it looks like he wanted to leave the fellowship (and understandably so!) A New York Times article stated that church members beat the teenager over a period of ten hours, beginning around 9 p.m. Sunday and ending around 7 a.m. Monday. A folded over electrical cord appears to have been used to punish the deceased teen and his brother. “What started as some mild flogging spun out of control into something much more violent,” states the NYT piece. Can you imagine the horror that took place?
According to the same NYT article:
A police spokesman said counseling sessions like the one that preceded Lucas Leonard’s death were a routine practice at Word of Life Christian Church, in the town of New Hartford, N.Y., and were meant to deal with questions about adherents’ spiritual standing. But the spokesman said investigators had no indication that the sessions had led to beatings before.
However, the parents of the deceased teenager appear to be misleading the authorities about their son, as this excerpt indicates:
Defense lawyers for the teenagers’ parents, Bruce T. Leonard, 65, and Deborah Leonard, 59, offered a sharply different account of the meeting, describing it as a family gathering to discuss the teenagers’ behavior toward relatives and church members. A lawyer for Ms. Leonard, Devin Garramone, said, “It had something to do with the boys maybe touching some of the other children in the church.”
But the police spokesman, Lt. Timothy O’Neill of the New Hartford Police Department, said the Oneida County Child Advocacy Center had thoroughly investigated suggestions of sexual abuse by the teenagers and deemed them “completely unfounded.” The advocacy center conducted interviews and medical examinations, Lieutenant O’Neill said, adding that “there’s been no evidence whatsoever to suggest there was any molestation committed by either of these young men.”
Interviews with investigators and defense lawyers on Thursday yielded a portrait of a controlling, meddlesome church whose members sought to handle any problems internally.
The TWW reader who notified us highlighted these statements from another NYT article:
“Don’t call it a church,” said Connie Toukatly, 76, who lives across the street. “Because a church is a place that’s open and welcomes people. This did not do that.”
The Rev. Abraham L. Esper, the pastor at the St. Patrick’s-St. Anthony’s Roman Catholic Church next door, said he periodically heard church members playing drums or saw them doing work on the yard or roof, often with children in tow. He said dogs barked at all hours. “This is not of God,” he said of the activities next door. “If this was of God, there would be growth. Not destruction.”
“This was a way of life,” he said. “Their church life, if you can call it that, was the center of their world.” Lucas and Christopher were home-schooled, said Ron Wheelock, the superintendent of Sauquoit Valley Central School.
We will continue to investigate Lucas Leonard's tragic death; however, in the meantime, here are some things to ponder…
– Our faith enjoys much power in our society and protection under the Constitution. What responsibilities do we have to make sure that children are not hidden and killed in the church down the street? Were other children in this church hidden from authorities, denied an education and perhaps medical care?
– Is speaking negatively about the pastor / church always considered slander?
– How about shunning? Should pastors be able to demand that church members shun others?
– Is this a church or a cult?
No doubt our astute TWW readers have questions / observations of their own. Feel free to share them in the comment section.
There will be much more to discuss about this so-called church as investigators get to the bottom of what actually happened to Lucas Leonard. May he finally rest in peace…
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First!
I had fun with this one. In late September my alma mater Marquette University rescinded an honorary doctorate that it gave to Bill Cosby. This was done in light of all the allegations against Bill Cosby. I researched and wrote about that and suggest that Al Mohler and Mark Dever could learn from Marquette in how to approach C.J. Mahaney.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/10/17/what-al-mohler-and-mark-dever-can-learn-from-marquette-universitys-public-rebuke-of-bill-cosby/
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I read about this the other day on yahoo news. When people think they speak and or act for God it just proves to me how fallen mankind really is and our need for a Savior screams out.
So sad all of the crimes committed in the so called name of Christ.
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@ Eagle:
We're both up late. đ
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Yup…..some of us are up late!!
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Today local morning drive-time radio mentioned an additional thing that came to light:
The Sin(TM) that got the teen beaten to death was wanting to leave that church.
Obviously, he must have had a DEEEMON, so they beat it out of him.
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If those mug shots are what they seem, the dead boy’s father has the Michael Pearl Patriarch Beard.
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Absolutely horrifying…how would they think a person wanting to leave an oppressive church would respond to a beating that didn’t result in death? Be all on board???
Poor boy. I hope his brother can go to a safe place and heal not just from these physical wounds, but for what must surely be years of emotional and spiritual abuse to boot.
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Don’t know if it’s a cult or sectarian in nature.The parents look creepy, like washed out hippies.
That those young men didn’t run/escape from that home/church, tells me they were totally controlled, brainwashed by their parents to submit to their authority.
What a sad day when parents beat to death their children in the name of the Lord.
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Speaking of the local news re: the Leonard “family”, the Syracuse news (city close to me) have covered this extensively. Anyone with the ability to check out the (stomach churning) details of this case would find this info on their sites.
(Personally, I have been nauseated enough by it. I can pray for the surviving son w/o hearing the details of the worst abuse case in this area in my memory. YMMV).
His name is Christopher……
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I saw the pictures of the parents (& others who took part in the beatings), & yes, he has the Pearl beard.
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“This is an issue of greater urgency to some than others. The way each of us thinks through it will depend on the extent to which we are stakeholders, to our relational proximity to those involved and even geographic proximity. If you are a member at Word of Life Christian Church this issue is very urgent, and particularly so if your church is considering withdrawing from the association. However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.
The farther we are from being stakeholders, the less the likelihood that we are equipped to helpfully evaluate the facts and that we can do anything helpful with the information we learn. The farther we are from being close to those involved, the greater the likelihood that we are drawn more to the scandal of it all than any noble purpose. Not all knowledge builds us up; not all knowledge helps us; not all knowledge helps us love God and love one another in deeper ways. The fact that todayâs media allows us to have access to facts, does not necessarily give license to avail ourselves of them.
If it is true that I am called to love other Christians, that I am called to believe and hope all things, that I am far outside this situation, then I think I do well to learn less rather than more. I need to know only enough to understand that I donât need to know anything more!
For this reason I have deliberately avoided learning too much. I have had to question my motives, especially since I have repeatedly been on the receiving end of scathing criticism for not using my platform to speak out against Word of Life Christian Church. I have chosen to read the news stories, to understand the basic facts, but conscience compels me to stop there. To do more may not be spiritually beneficial, it may not reflect good time management, and it may not be loving toward those who are involved.
In a situation as difficult as this one, especially in a situation as difficult as this one, the Lord calls me, he calls each of his people, to pursue peace and love and unity. I take this as a call to consider carefully what information I learn, to keep in mind that none of us has access to all of the facts, that I am to believe and hope all things of every believer, and that there are important and wide-reaching implications for each one of us.”
Only the names have been changed.
http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries
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I participate on a very political board (which started its life to follow the “birthers” and now has switched over to following the antics of “sovereign citizens” and other likeminded folk). We don’t talk religion there very often, but someone set up a topic for this very incident, it was that appalling. Its title? “Christian Extremists”.
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From the NY Times article “… kept to themselves, almost never opening their doors or their mouths, secluded behind a closed entrance … guarded by members, dressed in dark clothes … There were fires on the roof, and the sounds of drums and chanting from inside. Dogs were heard barking at all hours …”
Dark and demonic. The devil is present on planet earth and can be found in various manifestations of flesh and power. TWW continues to chronicle the existence of evil … in church!
“Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who donât believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They donât understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4. “This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all” (1 John 1:5).
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Is this not merely a perverted context within the discipline movement? Sure, Dever &c. would never beat someone to death; but the emotional, psychological, and spiritual damage done to some people could take years from which to recover.
The discipline movement is not merely manipulative, spiritually and emotionally — resembling more a cult than a church — but it also betrays freedom of conscience as well as the priesthood of the saint, the latter of which many in the movement *claim* to advocate but betray the same with their actions. This story made my stomach ill. That happens a lot when I hear or read stories of abuse in these sick churches.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This church is run by two women.
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William wrote:
Amen! If a “ministry” diminishes truths regarding the priesthood of the believer and individual soul competency, it does not have God in the house. If you allow a leader’s weakness to control your strength, they own you! Control, manipulation, and intimidation are not spiritual gifts. Excommunication, shunning, and beatings are lifted right out of the pages of the Dark Ages. The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy … even in 21st century church.
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For those who are interested, here is a picture of the Word of Life church and the Roman Catholic church next door.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0254391,-75.2700224,3a,75y,19.99h,96.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7mfUeCibAKv3ZT6JPgN7Gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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@ Deb:
You all stayed up even later than I did! (and we’re both in EDT, if I recall correctly)
This is horrific. My thoughts are along the line of what William said just above my post here. We can’t look at this (or any deaths related to the Pearl’s or Ezzo’s teaching) as standing in complete isolation. It merely falls on the tail of the fundamentalist-style extremism side of the bell curve.
What I’m left wondering – though I lack the stomach to check if this has already been answered – is whether this tragedy came from a Pearl-style “spare the rod” posture, or a Charismatic “cast out the demon” posture of belief. It doesn’t change the evil that happened, but I can’t deny a certain curiosity about what exactly motivated these people (whom I won’t dignify by calling “parents”) to set aside their protective instincts and commit this atrocity.
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@ Joe2:
I find it an intriguing coincidence that this cult is on Oneida St…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneida_Community
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It gets worse. From today’s New York Times:
Let me suggest that the word of Daniel Irwin, a member of the ruling church family [Tiffani Irwin’s younger brother, maybe?] and a deacon, might be unreliable.
And then there’s this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/17/nyregion/word-of-life-fatal-beating-new-hartford-police-lucas-leonard.html?_r=0
This whole thing is a cesspool. It’s terrible it took a death for this to come to light, but, unfortunately, that’s the way it is here in the USA, since we have a hands-off approach to religious practices due to the First Amendment. Not sure there’s any other way we could go about it without dumping that essential freedom, which I’m not willing to give up.
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@eagle
Normally I just ignore your advertising but today I can’t. Something just off about you replying first to a post about children being beat to death with another “hey, come look at my blog post.” What is wrong with you?
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This is my opinion only but many of the barbaric practices that fundamentalist cults practice come from none other than the bible itself. This is the danger when churches deny the reality of living in a 21st century liberal democracy (a democracy that the writers of the bible couldn’t even conceptualize). It becomes an all or nothing belief system where in order to be a member you MUST believe in Young Earth Creationism, you MUST believe that women and children are to submit to men who in turn MUST submit to the leaders who in turn (by delusion or charlatanism) convince the sheep they are THE representatives of the Lord. Without placing the bible in the context of its time groups that start with 9Marks or Acts29 thinking become more insular and more controlling leading to more opportunities for abuse. As a group becomes more insular they become more detached from reality and this is the end result. We’ve seen it time and again with the Peoples Temple, Branch Davidians and our buddy Star Scott from a couple of posts ago.
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@ Deb:
@ Eagle:
I wasn’t. I was sleeping like a baby by 11PM EST.
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Kevin wrote:
Thank you for saying this. I have been asked, quite frequently, why I do not have difficulties with my faith as I write about these horrific events. My answer is exactly what you said.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That is considered a sin by many of today’s contemporary Calvinist churches which believe that you cannot leave a church, even for reasons of conscience, unless you immediately join a Calvinista approved church immediately. Thankfully, for now, they are only talking about you during church discipline sessions with the membership gang. So far, no one has been burned at the stake.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You have such great descriptions of folks!
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Mandy wrote:
There will be a lifetime of difficulties after observing this.
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I want to go on such a rant here ……. I don’t even know where to begin! Some reports say that Lucas was beaten because he wanted to leave the church and join the army and Bruce Leonard worked as a teacher’s aid in a public school! I haven’t found or heard any excuse for the beating of Christopher.
How often do they beat people who disagree with them? I hope all the children with this group are permanently removed and placed in safe places.
I wonder how fellow inmates will treat the people who committed this atrocity? If these people are beaten in jail or prison by other inmates will they will understand that it is only a “counseling session”?
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@ Craig Hand:
We have a policy at TWW that allows people to share links to their own blogs. We want everyone to utilize blogging, etc as a method for sharing their own thoughts. If you need to be upset at someone, be upset at me for encouraging folks to do this.
Eagle’s post deals with his concern about the Christian community not acknowledging sexual abuse in churches. Marquette has recently pulled Bill Cosby’s honorary degree. he thinks more churches and Christian higher learning institutions should do the same thing. He does care about the victims.
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@ Jim Challies:
I remember when he wrote this post.There are two things he said which caused me to be quite concerned about his theology.
1. He wants to believe only good things. However, we live in a world in which Tom Challies would say that is filled with people who are depraved. So, what do we do? Believe they are only doing good or believe they are quite capable of doing bad.
2. He claims being concerned about would hinder his time management. Yeah, dealing with sex abuse of children is messy, time consuming, etc. Tim, however, believes it is good time management to hang out with CJ and his BFFs at conferences. That reveals something about his character that my not be particularly God honoring. Jesus spent his time with those sidelined and hurt by the Pharisees. It seems like Tim would believe that such activity down not represent good time management.
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Max wrote:
They don’t call us the daughters of Stan (sic) for nothing!
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William wrote:
We have another major story about to erupt in which a church which follows 9Marks and Desiring God disciplined a family in a most horrific way.
9Marks has a real problem. They claim that what happened at The Village Church was not optimum but that TVC leaders were “pious” as the went about hurting Karen Hinckley. Matt Chandler is one of the leaders that wants to institute church discipline, 9Marks style. He messed up very badly and almost brought a costly lawsuit onto his church.
Now, 9Marks will see yet another mess up in another church which may result in a big lawsuit. What happened in this situation is downright despicable.
Dever, Leeman and others must face the facts. The system as proposed does.not.work.
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rdrift179 wrote:
Yeah, and The Village Church was run by men. This issue has little to do with gender.
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@ Joe2:
Thank you!
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Jack wrote:
Great comment.
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mirele wrote:
No doubt about it and the whole bunch is suspect from top-down! Their religious practices are contrary to Christianity … a strange lot operating in rebellion to truth and righteousness. “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft” (1 Samuel 15:23).
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Joe2 wrote:
The Catholic folks should have taken a short walk over there years ago to exorcise demons.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There has been an outbreak of such facial hair in New Calvinist ranks. It’s a mark of devotion to their patron saint Calvin.
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@ dee:
Totally agree. He says we should believe only good things, but really he means believing good things about the Leaders. Believing the worst of the pewpeons is what they do for a living. Great point about “time management.” What that means is that they want to spend their time on the things they want to spend their time on, which happen to be the things which build up their egos and not the things that would serve the pewpeons. Same with Crazy Busy Kevin DeYoung.
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Jim Challies wrote:
Condensed translation: “If I cover my ears and hum loudly, the sins of my friends will disappear!”
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Is this insanity or demonic activity or something else? That is a serious question, because I cannot comprehend how people get drawn into this kind of cult. What is the attraction? There is a payoff for the 9Marks/Acts29/Gospel Glitterati groups, but what is there in this kind of group?
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“Word of Life Christian Church” is similar in naming to “People Republic of North Korea”
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dee wrote:
I took rdrift179’s comment as corrective rather than prescriptive, rather he was agreeing, this isn’t about patriarchy or gender.
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@ rdrift179:
Which is a perfect example of the corruptive force of too much power in the hands of a few. Given the opportunity, women have the brains and the ability to be corrupt, too.
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Josh wrote:
Attended the state fair last night with my hubby and daughters, which put me behind in writing the post. Thanks for your concern. đ
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mirele wrote:
People are free to be deceived, not ask enough questions, not demand accountability and allow themselves to be led by charlatans. I am not sure Free speech gives us the right to speak of abuses in public, thankfully. Perhaps the real problem lies in years of convincing people they need experts to lead and think for them whether it is church or government?
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Lydia wrote:
Oops, “I am glad…”
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@ Josh:
I did not know that history. Fascinating…
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@ Jim Challies:
A perfect example of people being encouraged not to think for themselves.
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Jack wrote:
Sure, your opinion, my opinion is the problems come from not following the Bible with regard to its pronouncements on what a leader is, what power (or complete lack thereof) the Bible says they have over anyone but themselves, what it means to love one’s enemy, what it means to live like Christ, what it means to be the least and the last, leading by example, never by compulsion, following Christ in His relative poverty, His humility that He had no need whatsoever of having.
Their problem is they don’t give a rip about the Bible, they warp and twist it and when it is silent on a subject which is on their agenda, they completely make it up as they go along. The people who do these things, or assert their dominance over a group of believers to put forth their own agenda are ruthless, conscienceless, cynical, pragmatic, self-interested, hateful people. They are most decidedly not following the Bible.
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@ Josh:
I wonder if it was a little bit of both. The “folded over electrical cord” sounds similar to the plumbing supply line that the Pearls recommend.
I hope there will be more outrage over this. There needs to be. Too many people defended Adrian Peterson’s abuse of his little boy. Too many people see nothing wrong with beating a child. Though in Lucas Leonard’s case it is considered assault, on a younger child it’s just corporal punishment. I agree with Janet Heimlich in calling it “Religious Child Maltreatment.”
http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Their-Will-Religious-Maltreatment/dp/161614405X
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Jim Challies wrote:
There is one simple fact that trumps all your cautionary words: evil has been done. Here, a boy is dead and another is hospitalized. With CJ&bunch, children were sexually abused, then neglected/judged for having been soul-wounded, and abusers were protected.
No amount of nuanced inside-info can alter evil-deeds-done. In fact, the further one is from the immediate context, the more clearly can this sort of evil be seen. Challiesâ post is a prime example of the need for outsider analysis because he fuzzes the SGM situation with defensiveness, platitudes and misused religious doctrine. Then he falls into a mush of “oh dear but not really bad so my friends are still correctâ. Now thatâs a courageous human (oops, I mean “real man”).
I get a kick out of how people with the religious bent that your comment exhibits become enthusiastic about âpeace and love and unityâ when it comes to in-church corruption but reject those virtues in almost every other area. Unfortunately, the hypocritical stance makes a mockery of your subtleties of conscience.
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Max wrote:
Open your Malleus Malefacarium and turn with me…
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Max wrote:
All I can say is the first time I saw a photo of Michael Pearl, my initial reaction was “He looks like a cross between Santa Claus and Gandalf.”
Or… the artistic convention of God the Father having a Long White Beard.
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Gram3 wrote:
Big Brother Can Do No Wrong.
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Deb wrote:
Kind of like Nick Redfern on Synchronicity in the paranormal, that as you get deeper into investigating the paranormal, the paranormal starts investigating YOU, bringing weirdness after weirdness into your life. Like John Keel in The Mothman Prophecies and Redfern himself in Three Men Seeking Monsters.
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Patrice wrote:
Last time we checked, the boy is still DEAD.
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I spent some time reading about this outfit in the NY Times. What also puzzles me is that this place was all about church discipline. Church discipline, church discipline and church discipline. Maybe Jonathan Leeman can hold his next church discipline conference there.
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@ Craig Hand:
Craig, I didn’t read the post until this morning. You are correct and I agree. To say first to something this horrific is wrong. You are right, I was wrong. Thanks for calling me out as I appreciate it.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
But, HUG, to say heâs still dead belittles the work of Christ, who resurrects from the dead! Why, thatâs even worse than mistrusting the repentance of a chronic child molester! Christ can do anything! To doubt is to deny!
lol
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In 2013, a 15 year old whose family was heavily involved in Calvary Chapel, killed his family. Yesterday, he plead guilty. The defense is hinting that the isolationism of homeschooling may be used in the sentencing hearing as a cause of mental illness. This was the case which showed me how closely police and CC are involved.
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Nancy2 wrote:
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump" (1 Corinthians 5:6-7). The church is called to check and challenge the sort of behavior demonstrated by SGM and its leaders. Challies' article was written to shame Mahaney critics into shutting up. These are days for Christians to be diligent to purge such influences, rather than embrace them … purity of the church is at stake. "Judge not that ye be not judged" is overworked and not applicable when ministries drift off course. New Calvinists will support the who's-who in their ranks, until the potato becomes too hot to handle. They hung with Driscoll until his predictable end (they will gather around him again when he reinvents himself with a predictable unrepentant comeback).
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Jack wrote:
The Old Testament Bible, where Mosaic law says, “stone them!” They ignore the New Testament, where Jesus says, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
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@ Nancy2: Well said!
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I am so outraged by what happened to these 2 young men. I could easily say words that aren’t in my vocabulary, but that wouldn’t solve anything. For the surviving brother Christopher, I pray the State of New York steps up and pays your hospital bills. He needs to be in therapy for years with a psychiatrist. It will be a big part of who this young man is. I hope with all my heart the State of New York totally throws the book at his parents and those who were also involved in the beating death of Lucas. I know that as a Christian, I shouldn’t want them to be physically punished, but I can’t help it. It is my human response and also that of a mother. To think that any parent who supposedly loved their children, could do this to them is beyond my wildest imagination. I pray that the “church” building this was done is razed to the ground. Hopefully they won’t find any other skeletons in the closets. I mean this literally. I firmly believe that for every case like this that is reported, there are many more out there that are not. My heart is so broken over this situation, that all I can do right now is pray for Christopher.
Pingback: Pastor Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church Taught Parents to Spank Adult Children | Spiritual Sounding Board
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God does not hate people. He loves them with every fiber of Himself. This is horrific. Why couldn’t someone have been there for those young men? To defend them? To protect them! To take the beating for them if need be, so they could get away! Someone here used the term- malignant ministers; that really describes the cancerous growth of evil preachers. Parental abuse and manipulation is evil, and doing it to control ‘for God’ is evil. The church is to be good, pure, peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, etc. Christians in America need to wake up- we have been programed to accept corruption of God’s Word. Saw a good post on a blog recently regarding Calvary Temple in Sterling VA, and it has a utube clip that makes me think of this news story:
https://tacticsofcalvarytemple.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/my-logic-is-undeniable/
For the real christians in New Hartford, I hope you will stand by this young 17 year old, and care/befriend him for as long as he lives. Some wounds never heal on earth. But they still need care.
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@ harley:
I wholeheartedly agree. May Christopher feel the love of true Christians as he struggles physically, emotionally, and spiritually to overcome the horrific treatment he endured.
He is in my thoughts and prayers.
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@ stonemason:
Thank you for your heartfelt comment. May our brothers and sisters in New Hartford and beyond show the love of God to this hurting young man.
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@ rdrift179: I believe the preacher that evening was the daughter of the church’s male founder. Sounds like dynastic succession.
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@ Josh: One or both young men wanted to leave the church. The preachers had a habit of hurling paranoid accusations during sermons. It was alleged that one or both brothers inappropriately touched younger children, but the police chief adamantly denies that. Supposedly the dead boy confessed wanting to use a voodoo doll against church leaders. All very distorted and wrong, and reminiscent of Salem in 1692.
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Friend wrote:
Why do you think my church (RCC) established priestly celibacy?
No LEGITIMATE heirs, in a time when political power and entire countries and their populations were inherited father-to-son like any other personal property.
But in a lot of these Independent One True Churches (and Megas), the 100% sure way to become Lead Pastor is to be born the son of the Lead Pastor with a name ending in “Junior”.
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The NY Times article gives details that suggest the father exercised a pattern of ungodly power and control, i.e. domestic abuse, over his wife and children. Quotes that indicate this:
” … the house was ‘filthy,’ said Mr. Constantine, who said he had lived a few doors down from the family for about eight years. ‘It stinks like hell,’ he said.
“He and other neighbors said they would regularly talk to Ms. Leonard, who would sometimes borrow sugar or lend an onion. But the children, even the older ones, did not seem to be allowed to watch television, Mr. Constantine said. Once, he said, his wife had given them a Disney cartoon, but they were not allowed to watch it because ‘Mickey Mouse never married Minnie Mouse.’
“Neighbors described Mr. Leonard as distant and taciturn. Sometimes, Mr. Constantine said, when he or his wife would talk to Ms. Leonard, he would emerge from the house. ‘If she was out here too long, talking to my wife and I, heâd come out and say, “You better come in now,” ‘ he recalled.”
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Barbara Roberts wrote:
Advice from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security regarding terrorist activity applies here as well “If you see something, say something.” Neighbors were concerned about the Leonards’ behavior and well-being of their children for years. Homeland Security says “Informed, alert communities play a critical role in keeping our nation safe” … the safety of neighborhood children should be our concern as well. We live in a sick society … just because neighbors go to church doesn’t mean they are good folks.
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Max wrote:
That should read “Judge not that ye be not judged.” But, as I point out in my comment, the church needs to be diligent to test the spirits among us and to rightly “judge” that which is amiss – particularly our leaders.
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@ Max:
This church and family aroused suspicion. I have not seen stories to indicate that CPS or police were ever called in the past. Someone should have done something.
What bothers my conscience is our daily obligation to watch out for abuse. Some years back a sad but insistently wholesome family lived near us. I worried about the wife and children. They shunned me, so getting to know them was not an option. I never heard a scream or saw a bruise, and calling CPS would have felt like persecuting them. I still don’t know if the dad was an abuser, or if I was just unwilling to accept people who lived so very, very strictly.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
If the victim is under 18, the conduct has to be outrageous enough for charges to be brought (i.e., the child has to be dead or pretty close to it), whereas, for an adult, charges can be brought for just hitting someone once (battery), even if the victim isn’t harmed.
I remember nearly thirty years ago being accused by a woman of trying to poach her husband (and Aspie me was totally clueless about the whole thing because I had no idea and simply wasn’t interested in any case because I was very fond of a balding anthropologist). As she ranted, I made a point of sticking my hands behind my back as I edged to the door of their apartment to make my escape. I didn’t even want to be accused of assault and battery.
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Friend wrote:
The New Hartford PD has released a statement that the witchcraft rumors are false.
http://cnycentral.com/news/local/police-witchcraft-rumors-in-word-of-life-beating-case-not-true
This cult is trying desperately to justify what they did. The police have already ruled out claims that the boys molested other children. “Oh what a tangled web we weave,” and all that.
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Kill the child, then lie about him. That strategy won’t work in this case.
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Barbara Roberts wrote:
đŻ and đ and â â
I wonder if the dad in the family objected to Donald Duck because Donald never wore pants. It’s a G-rated cartoon program, for pete’s sake.
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mirele wrote:
An oxymoron. Maybe not Christ-ian. Religious extremists?
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@ harley:
“I know that as a Christian, I shouldnât want them to be physically punished, but I canât help it. It is my human response and also that of a mother.”
+++++++++++++++++++
it is a sign that you are normal and healthy, and haven’t turned off normal impulses. There is nothing wrong or ‘ungodly’ with joining in the collective sigh when justice is served.
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@ Eagle:
Thank you for your gracious reply. I’m sorry that I was not more so myself.
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@ Eagle:
I’m not sure I would want to celebrate being “first” on this posting.
Oh, it’s just payback for when you did the same to me. Peace, Proffy
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William wrote:
I think you make an excellent point; this whole matter is a representation of what is devilishly wrong with parts of the church today….
đ
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Jack wrote:
Yes. You put your finger on it. There is altogether too much dragging in of nonbiblical teachings, & this is where it ends up.
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Joe2 wrote:
It is, as most will have realized, housed in an old school building. According to news reports (w/reporters at the scene, interviewing neighbors & police sources, when the police & ambulance arrived on scene, members were trying to convince them to go away w/o coming thru the doors. Several people who live near this “church” said that it is not unusual to see folks come out, bleeding & broken, from other events of the same sort……
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Max wrote:
The priest has been horrified by this group for a long time now. But Word of Life is so insular that they will not allow anyone to enter except other members.
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Gram3 wrote:
Well, I think it’s demonic. Who but satan could conceive of such monstrousness?
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Law Prof wrote:
Thanks, I re-read what the other person wrote, & what I wrote, & realized that I had read it wrong the first time.
Dee or Deb, could you please delete my 1st comment in this thread? Thank you!
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Deb wrote:
The Catholic church down the street held a prayer vigil last night.
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zooey111 wrote:
Dever & co. may not beat people to death, but I can see where their “disciplinary” actions might drive a person who is in a fragile emotional state to commit suicide.
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zooey111 wrote:
I have deleted your first comment per your request.
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Max wrote:
I made that correction.
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Friend wrote:
I don’t doubt that they are lying; what bothers me is that this is the line they are taking to defend themselves.
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Law Prof wrote:
I used to think this too. But as I’ve read more about these groups plus some other histories and documentaries, I think in some cases it’s scarier. Sure there’s the charlatan crowd but there’s also the “true believers”. They are sure that their interpretation of the bible is the only one, and they are sure that God is “talking” to them. When you have a mandate directly from heaven, anything is possible and any action justifiable. They now believe and convince others to believe there is no power, secular or otherwise above them. Once that point is reached then their own interests are inseparable from “God’s” and any abuse is now easy to rationalize (financial, spiritual, sexual, mental) and all actions are possible. This is not just a “Christian thing” – radical Islam, China’s cultural revolution, Japan’s emperor worship in WW2, the Crusades, National Socialism, radical Marxism, the Enron and Worldcom scandals are all examples more or less.
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Jack wrote:
I fully agree with you. Often people will excuse authoritarian behavior if the offender has “sincere” motives. The sincere ones are the most dangerous.
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Bill M wrote:
I completely agree. The sincere ones sincerely do not see the horror of their actions.
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Uh-oh. Pastor Ron Carpenter is doing a sermon series on his TV show called, “What Makes A Woman?” He has a Twitter hash, “#WhatMakesAWoman” on the TV screen as he’s preaching.
He opens by asking, “What was God’s original intent when he had female in mind?”
Why do men think they get to dictate to women how women should be women? The Bible even contains a verse saying older women should mentor younger ones – it doesn’t say men get to instruct women on this matter. It’s not a man’s place to tell women how to be women.
I even want to go so far as to say I don’t think it’s their (men’s) place to opine as to what they think God’s intent was for women. Because 9/10 times, we will get a gender complementarian reading that says, “Oh for sure, women are equal in value but not in role, which means women are here to bake cookies for men and to have babies and have little value for anything else. Go pound rocks, single, divorced, or infertile ladies.”
I don’t think I can watch the rest of this sermon (it’s on a Christian network).
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@ Bill M:
You know, I don’t think Mohler is a sincere “true believer” at all. I think he is into power, pure and simple. His tactics was to create an army of “true believers” in him and his ST. And he has been horribly dangerous to many from age 33 when he assumed his position at SBTS. I often think of one of his first victims. 64 year old Paul Debusman who was 8 months from retirement. Who dared irenically correct the record (he was the archivist) of a lie told by a chapel speaker. MOhler, at 33 fired him for telling the truth. Making sure he did not get full retirement. He made an example of him for all the others. The days of academic disagreement were over.
Does anyone here think CJ Mahaney would have any platform right now without Mohler? I often think of all those good decent people thrown to the curb at SBTS. Some even as recent as 2009-11.
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@ dee:
It was the timing and wording of the first post that was disturbing. I didn’t want to say anything initially, but since Craig did, I don’t want to leave him standing alone rebuked. I too was shocked when I read it as the first response to this article.
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Barbara Roberts wrote:
So did anyone make an anonymous tip to cps about possible neglect?
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@ zooey111:
Jack wrote: “This is my opinion only but many of the barbaric practices that fundamentalist cults practice come from none other than the bible itself.”
zooey wrote: “Yes. You put your finger on it. There is altogether too much dragging in of nonbiblical teachings, & this is where it ends up.”
+++++++++++++++++++
To me, the point is that it all can be argued as being biblical. Even one former is quoted as saying, “…if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible.”
How many contradictory slants and interpretations and understandings of the bible, now? And each one of them is called “biblical” with a big dollop 1 part pious and 2 parts smug.
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Daisy wrote:
Proverbs 31 is actually the instruction of a mother to her son.
This is in agreement with what you say.
Men are not the authorities on what it is to be a woman because they will most likely curve it around what they want. i.e. Most of them cannot be objective.
(Some can objectify though.)
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Mild flogging. A 19 year old and a 17 year old. At church.
Sure, happens all the time. Routine church conduct. If only it had stopped at mild flogging and hadn’t spun out of control. Right?
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BOLDING MISTAKE, BOLDING MISTAKE. THERE’S BEEN A BOLDING MISTAKE.
the bolding was supposed to stop after “all can be argued”. I’m not yelling, really. extremely perturbed at Christian culture, but not yelling.
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Apparently not. This is how it goes — family, friends, neighbors always knew there was something untoward and weird about it, after the fact. {eyeroll} Any criticism and concern is Christian persecution.
This is about religious freedom. First Amendment rights guaranteed by the Constitution. (Actually, the misinterpretation, misapplication and hijacking of what the first Constitutional Convention and drafters meant and intended.)
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@ Debi Calvet:
I didn’t rebuke Craig. I merely said blame me . When comments show up that some find uncomfortable, the buck must stop with the Deebs. For that, I am sorry. I wish I had thought how it could be perceived. Thank you both for making me more sensitive to this.
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Jack wrote:
The devil “talks” to people, too ……. usually in disguise.
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Nancy2 wrote:
True, that.
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Gram3 wrote:
Cults tend to flourish during times of rapid social change and uncertainty. They provide clear answers and narrow choices which can be desirable for some.
Probably most important is that they provide a sense of community and belonging which most people really want and need. In addition, cult members, even those who are not high status in the group, can enjoy being special, ie they are members of the only group going to Heaven or being saved from a natural disaster by a UFO, etc.
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@ elastigirl: Corrected your comment. đ
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@ Deb:
well, that was thoughtful!
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Lydia wrote:
I haven’t tracked these people over the years so I looked up the story of Debusman. The more I learn of these stories the more I am confirmed that institutional Christianity is debased and much if not most of the leadership is corrupt. Firing a 35 year employee, just before retirement, without warnings, for unjustified reasons, is corrupt, it is evil. The justification for the firing was Debusman was “harmful” to the seminary, a skunk like Mohler should not be hired to sweep the floor of the institution he directs.
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Being Catholic, I was never offended much when any of my comments were removed by administrators on Southern Baptist blogs, because I felt they had the right and they knew what to them was ‘inappropriate’ for their blogs. EXCEPT for one issue:
the whole theology of disciplining babies and little ones by beating them into ‘submission’ . . . I couldn’t and cannot stand the heartlessness and stupidity of such thinking . . . and that it is joined together with the Holy Name of Jesus just is too much for me
So I ‘reported’ here on WW when some of my comments on this issue were ‘removed’ from certain blogs. I felt it was important to do so. I had to do something. And I was grateful to Wartburg Watch that it gave me an outlet for being able to speak up when I had been ‘shut up’ by the powers of certain fundamentalist-evangelical blogs.
Those children and young people injured and killed by ‘christians’ and those little babies and small toddlers whipped with cords . . . they needed the protection of the Church against evil . . . and it breaks my heart when still there are some powerful voices in the fundamentalist-evangelical world who foster these beatings as authorized by ‘The Word of God’ . . . God have mercy on us all. Thanks again, WW, for caring about our young people . . . this IS a Christian work of mercy. God Bless!
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Christiane wrote:
They will delete comments from any and all who disagree with them, including Southern Baptists.
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This was meant to be a reply to
Barbara Roberts wrote: So did anyone make an anonymous tip to cps about possible neglect?
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 __
“The Vision Lives On?”
hmmm…
 The bible was the truth that had once made America great, but one which she now has aparrently forgottenâthat the Bible is more than a collection of ‘disconnected moralisms’ ™ for private application, more than ‘a comprehensive guide for an individual’s life’ (r) , more than a blueprint for ‘an individual’s private and public conduct’ (c) as well.  In it God Almighty,  and His precious Son, Jesus share their words with us; their dreams, goals, & aspirations for us, for all of mankind as well!  In it we learn (maybe for the first time) that God Almighty has announced ‘the all clear signal’ (r) ; that through the finihed work of His Son Jesus, it is once again ok to approach Him.Â
huh?
Yep. (give it a try)
Q. How great Is God’s love for us?
WELL…God has already “sent the very best”…
What?
Q. So What Are You Waiting For?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeech !
—> God so loved ‘You’, that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that if ‘You’ will ‘believe’ in Him, ‘You’ shall not perish, but have ‘everlasting life’ ™…
Yep.
Reach out and take His SWEET ‘offer’ today!
(You’ll be glad you did!)
ATB
Sopy  đ
—
Â
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@ zooey111:
ANYBODY who saw people emerge bleeding from this church should have called the police.
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Christiane wrote:
I don’t see this as God, nor what sane wholesome spiritual leaders mean to have happen. I view it as pure utter perversion. The justification about what’s biblical so therefore acceptable, is plain old human crazy to me.
On the other hand, if that’s what this holiest, most sacred of books and doctrine really promotes, I don’t want any part of it.
The bible was written by human hand [during particular epochs of human life on Planet Earth, starting about 3,500 years ago – 1400 BC (Moses) to 450 BC (Malachi). This is not an argument about the nature of divine inspiration or anything like that – just a fact. Context of social convention and standards of behavior is not negligible. It counts.
A “divine” document written in the 1800s doesn’t mean that women must wear corsets and the family car should be traded in for a cart and oxen, simply because that was the writer’s experience. That would be ridiculous. It is ridiculous.
Buddhist writings don’t lose meaning when studied in the 21st century. Genuine veracity and wisdom are constant through the passage of time.
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@ mirele:
Here’s New Hartford police statement about the crime: http://www.newhartfordtown.com/10-13-2015.htm
Here’s a press release from investigators about allegations of witchcraft, etc. Not a typical move by police. It lets you know there’s more going on behind the scenes. And that the group’s leadership is acting crazy.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/285616010/Leonard-Homicide-Investigation-Press-Release
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dee wrote:
Sorry, but I have to agree with Craig Hand. Isn’t “open discussion” the place for off-topic comments and blog links?
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Friend wrote:
Absolutely. I didn’t read media reports that described that, but true regardless.
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Lydia wrote:
I have often thought the same thing…
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elastigirl wrote:
This is what I was trying to say. You said it better!! Thanks!
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Gulag wrote:
You’re right.
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Christiane wrote:
Well said, my friend. I am with you on this subject. We HAVE to stop torturing children & then claiming “religious liberty” as a defense.
Someone once said that, “your rights end when your fist hits the other person in the face”. [Learned Hand, maybe?] We all need to get back to that principal.
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Friend wrote:
They most likely did. The cops knew exactly where to go when this whjole tragedy was revealed……There are too many bluidy rules about what constitutes “evidenc”.
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Max wrote:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Michael Pearl is not a Calvinist, and in fact teaches against it.
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Jack wrote:
I don’t disagree with a thing you say here. But..there’s no way the high control groups, including the 9Marks crowd, the SGM and A29 pseudo-Christian cults, or the various hateful, abusive, emotionally constipated faux Christians can get where they are by a fair reading of anything Jesus said or did or by a fair, filtered-through-Jesus reading of Paul, John, Peter, etc. Cannot be done. At some point they just have to say “Bleep Jesus and His love nonsense, we want to abuse, and we’re blanking well going to do it one way or the other.”
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Steve Scott wrote:
Could be true, never paid much attention to the dreadful Mr. Pearl, but abusers come in all shapes and sizes, Holiness Pentecostals, Neocalvinists, Roman Catholics, unltrafundamentalists like the IBF crowd, etc.
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Lydia wrote:
I’ve come to very much wonder about that myself. I am sick and tired of being bullied by otherwise well-meaning Christians into just assuming that someone is a brother or sister in Christ by dint of them declaring it to be so. I do not care anymore what anyone says of themselves, I look to the fruits, and the fruits I see of Mohler are that he is a vicious and destructive tyrant. They are not the fruits that Jesus demonstrated. If they are, than I am wholly blinded. I don’t assume salvation anymore, that is something that is to be judged, as the Lord said, based on fruits: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
If I see someone like Mohler, claiming righteousness, yet demonstrating what to my eyes seems to be the virtually opposite of each and every one of those fruits, I will not apologize for saying that in my opinion, Mohler is a phony and a fraud and that anyone who gives him two seconds of consideration is a first class fool who will answer to the Lord for it. Not exactly mincing words here, getting too old to care about it anymore.
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Joe2 wrote:
Wow, the difference in architecture helps explain it for me. One looks like what a church should look like. The other… Alcatraz in the ‘burbs anyone?
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Gulag wrote:
Appreciate this–I think it backs up my point that Daniel Irwin is probably an unreliable witness. I also think the members of the church were spreading rumors about why the two Leonards were being disciplined. First it was possible child abuse, and when the cops came out and said, NOPE, they went with voodoo as a reason for why they’d beat these young men.
I am having a hard time dealing with the idea that the last thing Lucas Leonard knew in his life was that he was being beaten to death by his parents and other church members. It just breaks my heart.
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@ Steve Scott:
Yep, Michael Pearl calls Calvinism heresy, as demonstrated at this link.
http://nogreaterjoy.org/shop/the-other-side-of-calvinism-book
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@ Law Prof:
Here we have two buildings called churches right next door to each other. People in each building probably believe that their next-door neighbors are going to hell. In my opinion, most or all members of these two congregations are Christians, and both buildings are churches. Yes, horror and evil happened in one building this week, and I much prefer the Catholic parish. However, Word of Life contains baptized, worshiping believers. The challenge to the rest of us Christians is to eliminate evil from our faith, not to look at a murder or a case of abuse and say, “Well, obviously that’s a cult and the people who did this aren’t Christians.”
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Friend wrote:
You know them by their fruits. And any group that exercises such vicious control as that, practices such unconscionable evil as that, is not showing the fruits of the right spirit. Can a good tree bear bad fruit? Of course they come as angels of light, of course they baptize, of course they–at least on some level–mouth the right doctrine. So what? I care not.
Anyone can learn doctrine and come to believe it in their minds, just as one can believe Chevy makes a better truck or that laissez-faire economics is superior to a command economy. They can argue in favor of their doctrine and shout it from the pulpit and say certain words that sound like Christianity, but that no more means they’re Christians than they’re ham salad sandwiches. We were warned by the Lord millenia ago that we will know them by their fruits. I cannot for the life of me understand why Christians have gone soft on this point. Jesus overturned tables and ran a bunch of abusive frauds out of the temple court, He didn’t slowly whip a boy to death.
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 __
“Tradition And Distinctions, Â Cover A Multitude Of Sins?”
hmmm…
Law Prof,
 Mohler has totally emerged himself in a form of Calvinism; it carries a five hundred year old tradition.Â
 That makes his actions ‘right’ huh?
-snicker-
 One thing you have to remember Law Professor, Mohler is doing all of this ‘for the glory of his god?
huh?
…his god has subjected kind folks prior to their birth to the place created for the devil and his angels because it brings this god glory.
terrifying, huh?
Trick or Treat?
(sadface)
Sopy
—
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It appears these people also abused the animals in their life as well. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/caged-dogs-found-home-couple-charged-sons-death-34566478 The conditions in the house were horrendous. They should have been charged with the abuse of the children (as well as the animals) for the condition of the house alone.
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Law Prof wrote:
That is quite the point. And IMO this is why the SBC omitted from the BFM 2000 the statement that scripture must be seen/understood/interpreted (I forget the original terminology) through Jesus. It is not that they just neglected to mention that-they deliberately took it out of/did not bring it forward from the prior statement. This was not an accident. They deliberately did this and allowed missionaries to resign because of it. They made a huge Bible-Yes but Jesus-No policy statement.
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@ okrapod:
I never thought of it that way. And now, all you hear about from SBC leaders is whether or not something falls within the BFM. How convenient.
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@ lydia:
BFM = B-I-B-L-E
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Nancy2 wrote:
You just have to wonder how any Christians lived an authentic faith before the Bible was written down and canonized. Did Christianity become more authentic after the King James version was published, even though linguistically, historically, and geographically it was farther removed from Jesus?
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Nancy2 wrote:
Tell me about it. On SBC pastor type blogs when they give up arguing the typical clobber verses, they appeal to the BFM as the authority. It has been total irony for me since both sides affirm inerrancy yet both claim totally different understandings of God based on scripture! One side claim Calvin’s determinist God and other, the free will God. How inerrancy works in that “BFM paradigm”, I will never understand.
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Friend wrote:
Considering how that took place in history, people really did not have much choice. Dissent from the authority and you were punished.
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@ lydia:
Understood. And I happen to love the King James version, but it’s disturbing to see how biblical literalism has taken hold in many American churches. In many places it’s heresy to admit that the Bible has a history. The idea that our faith started with oral tradition is beyond comprehension–but Jesus did not distribute copies of the Gospels. Legalism and literalism probably played a big role in the abuses and violence committed at Word of Life Church.
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Friend wrote:
Maybe that conundrum is one reason that people keep placing faith in the ‘original manuscripts’ which we do not have and for which there is no evidence that they exist. Which is to say that one can postulate that there never was a time when there were not written instructions (the original manuscripts) because how could people possibly come to faith in Christ otherwise. Of course, why no one postulates that the originals might have inconsistencies with each other just like the earliest copies that we have–how could that be if no one comes to Christ except through what is written down. After all did Jesus not say for his followers to stay in Jerusalem until somebody writes something down, and did not Peter read from some early NT writing at Pentecost and was that not what the crowds found convincing?
(sarcasm off)
I have a high view of scripture, actually, and I hate to see the abuses of scripture which can be heard from so many sources today. If people take scripture and try to redefine and repurpose it into something which it was not designed to be, and then if/when scripture fails to live up to the new expectations, at that point scripture is made to look foolish and worse. So what are people to think at that point? There are those out there who do make scripture (and themselves) look foolish and worse, and who try to get other people to join them in such nonsense, and that is what I want to rail against.
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@ Nancy2:
What is this a ‘sign’ of? People do things for reasons, and I always thought that a blog would welcome dialogue, but then I understand that there are people who don’t . . .
I do see evidence of fearfulness on Southern Baptist blogs, and perhaps this is a part of the problem. But for a denomination that prides itself in its awesome missionary work,
I would think they would be up to sharing their point of view on a blog . . . what I got was often accusations of being ‘ingenious’ for asking certain questions, and impatient responses that ‘I should know’ the answers to my questions (?)
There were many Southern Baptists who DID respond to questions and shared much interesting information with me, especially at Wade Burleson’s blog, and I was grateful to them for their kindness. I have been ‘banned’ from David Miller’s blog, though, which I do not resent, as I don’t think he has a lot of tolerance for the kind of dialogue I sought.
I remain grateful to those who have helped me. The Southern Baptist faith was my maternal grandmother’s faith. And I wanted to understand what it was all about. I still don’t understand a lot of what I was told, as there seems to be disagreement among many within that denomination, but I choose to think of it as a ‘healthy diversity’ and my desire to comprehend the mysteries of this denomination remain. đ
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Jack wrote:
Because they now have (literally) Cosmic-level Justification of whatever they were going to do anyway. “I WANNA = GOD WILLS IT!”
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zooey111 wrote:
“Theirs is a High and Lonely Destiny…”
— Paraphrase of Chronicles of Narnia: The Magician’s Nephew
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zooey111 wrote:
Idunno, Zooey.
People can be VERY creative along those lines all by their lonesome.
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This is a disturbing post, not only because a young man was needlessly and horrifically killed and his brother hospitalized, both after hours of false imprisonment/unlawful detention (I wonder, were they ever told they were free to go?), but because to a watching a lost world, it was done in the name of Christ.
Deb, you ask some great questions at the end, questions that naturally arise from discussing such occurrences. I am mulling over the first thought question (balancing freedom of religion with protection of minors/those who cannot take care of themselves). Where does the First Amendment end (…prohibiting the free exercise [of religion]; or abridging the freedom of speech…) and the call for intervention begin, especially considering the habeas corpus overtones of this case? Under New York State Law (The Social Services Law and the Family Court Act), anyone with knowledge of the abuse and maltreatment of children are mandated to report it to Child Protective Services.
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Steve Scott wrote:
It is really strange how things play out. His method of discipline for babies seems to hinge on imputed guilt as understood with total depravity.
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@ okrapod:
Reminds me of the blogger who said children should never be called kids because Jesus separated the sheep from the goats.
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Friend wrote:
Word of Life could hardly be a worse misnomer.
I’m not convinced the bible played any role in what went on, because what was done was so absolutely against it central tenets. Atheists like to quote Rev 2 : 23 and I will strike her children dead and force a literal meaning on a symbolic text, but I don’t see where a ‘literal’ reading of the bible could ever justify such actions. No murderer has eternal life abiding in him
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@ Friend:
I honestly wonder if there are city zoning restrictions applicable in this situation. A church occupying an old high school? I am not familiar with zoning laws but I would be fascinated to hear the perspective of someone in the know.
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@ Eagle:
I live elsewhere and don’t know anything about state and local zoning in New York. Where I live, many older churches cannot lease their Sunday school classrooms to preschool organizations because of zoning. Sunday school classrooms don’t have to meet the latest requirements for number of square feet per enrolled child, etc. Perhaps the Sunday school classrooms are grandfathered in, or the regs don’t apply/exist.
Around here a lot of churches meet inside school buildings, but only for regular worship services.
I like the idea of investigating the question of zoning. That might have been one more way to look into this congregation, in addition to police and CPS.
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Eagle wrote:
You’d have to talk to someone in the know in Oneida. Zoning laws are specific to each city/municipality.
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Eagle wrote:
Here in my town a presbyterian church bought a former school and operates a church and a school on the property. Very middle class operation.
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Friend wrote:
That sounds like the sort of nitpicking definition dance you find in Sovereign Citizen Manifestos.
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Re: authoritarian control, church discipline, group think, & the harm to people’s lives that results:
I expect that as more of this story is clarified so will the parallels between this and the likes of Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill, Matt Chandler, The Village Church, Acts 29, 9Marks, Jonathon Leeman, Sovereign Grace, CJ Mahaney, etc. and all those who support them (including in silence, like The Gospel Coalition).
These groups and Word of Life in New Hartford, New York all have these in common with their leaders: control and manipulation, rumors, insinuations, shunning, intimidation, & more.
They all have groupthink in common with their members.
I am hoping for high publicity full-fledged comparisons and analysis. Towards change, acknowledgements of grievous error, humble apologies that don’t fall short, restitution where it is warranted.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I actually met a guy, big family like the wife and I, very legalistic, who said “We don’t like to refer to our children as ‘kids’.” I had no good notion why this was an issue for him, but now you’ve given me some clue as to his mindset. By the way, some years after this conversation, the guy’s adult daughter married a nice Christian man, but not one who was a hyper legalist, just your normal garden variety follower of Jesus who wasn’t the type to nitpick semantics. The guy cut his daughter and son-in-law off cold, said they’re dead to him now.
Seems like the level of true righteousness that one has is sometimes in inverse relationship to the level of false, pharasaical righteousness that one projects.
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@ Law Prof:
This brings back memories, but only vaguely, of some people in the homeschooling movement when I was a teen (that’d be back in the late 90’s and early 00’s) who were adamantly against calling teenagers … teenagers – I think it was, or maybe they were against the term youth – for some stupid semantic reason that mattered only to the nitpickiest of fundamentalists. For better or for worse (probably mostly for better) my brain has forced out any further memories of why this might have been, but like the opposition to “kids,” it was a thing about which some people raised a big stink.
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Culture of Word of Life:
‘Members are devoted to their pastor and often “wait to be told what to do,” Inserra said.’
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-church-killing-20151018-story.html
I have a feeling this isn’t all that uncommon in many churches.
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Mandy–How do you respond when you are beaten? With fear and more fear. Yes, that could make them stay. Even if they left, it is a fear that would haunt them for years.
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Victim involved in NY church beating death out of hospital, will testify
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/victim-involved-in-ny-church-beating-death-out-of-hospital-will-testify/
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@ Ken:
No murderer has eternal life abiding in him? I am not sure that any heinous act plainly shows the state of a person’s soul. Are all Christians really incapable of murder and manslaughter? Assuming that the act of murder proves one is not a Christian, what about repentance?
When we say that murderers aren’t Christian, we run the risk of ignoring monsters in our midst, and placing victims in some lesser state. This young man was murdered in church by his congregation, much as the “witches” of Salem were murdered by Christians in 1692.
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Law Prof wrote:
That was standard in Gothardism. What never made sense to me was that they thought of their children as utterly depraved at the same time as they would not refer to them as kids because of the goat association. And the Far Side talking animals were also off-limits because animals are not made in the image of God. Never, ever try to make Gothard make sense or you will go insane. But we need to be aware of the ways in which it has infiltrated the mindset of the authoritarians, including the Covering and Umbrellas of Authority teachings.
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@ Josh:
Some fundamentalists don’t believe in adolescence because certain words are not found in the King James version. This simplistic view goes along with patriarch-led courtship, early marriage, and opposition to the “government schools.”
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Law Prof wrote:
This is so very sad.
And far too common.
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@ Daisy: I am relieved to see this.
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@ Daisy:
“âŚ.Authorities believe the attack was prompted by the brothersâ desire to leave the church.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“The trend toward independent, conservative churches coincides with a decline in membership in mainline Christian churches. “A lot are forming in reaction to the liberalization of mainline churches,” Bromley said.
The theology of a congregation may lead to strong resistance to a member’s wish to leave the group, he said.
“If you get into a very conservative group where there is only one way, and God’s wrath is about to be unleashed on humanity and we’re the faithful remnant, then leaving the group is a very serious condition from the point of view of members,” Bromley said. “Essentially, if you leave you’re walking into Satan’s dominion and your soul is lost.”–David Bromley, professor of religious studies and director of the World Religions and Spirituality Project at Virginia Commonwealth University
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-church-killing-20151018-story.html
“I do think itâs legitimate to say ânoâ to resignation when an individual has no plans to join another church. That is a case of walking into unrepentant sin.”–Jonathon Leeman
…or to join a 9Marks approved church.
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@ Josh:
The concept of adolescence (teen/youth) is a disputed concept. Some people think that is an idea conjured up by our society in order to keep younger people out of the work force longer-thus reserving the jobs for older people. I do know that the idea has changed since I was young. For example, when I went into nurses’ training after high school in the ’50s, that being a hospital based program with aspects of the military and aspects of the convent among other things, we were age 18-21 and nobody remotely considered us teenagers or adolescents, even though the legal age of majority in our state was 21 at the time. We were there to learn a profession, choose a husband, and hurl ourselves out at 21 being married professionals ASAP. And most of us did just that. Expectations change over the decades.
Also, this sort of idea is partially culture bound, there being a fairly large ethnic group here that emphasizes growing up (earning money and choosing a mate and having babies) younger than other groups tend to do. That would be whether or not they were still in high school. I doubt that people would dare insinuate that these people were not ‘grown up’ whatever that means exactly.
What I have described had/has nothing to do with crazy religious ideas. The religious ideas people may be a whole different ball game for all I know.
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recent decision to leave The Village Church:
Pastor M.Y.: “I am grieved to see that you have made this decision apart from the leadership of The Village. This is a violation of your membership covenant.
The elders of TVD cannot presently accept your resignation of membership….”
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html?m=1
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I am thrilled to hear that Christopher is out of the hospital. I pray he is staying in a safe place, free from harm from these loony people. The pictures of his parents give me the creeps. They look like they are either mentally challenged or on some type of drug. Now we hear that their house was a big garbage dump and smelled like animal feces, etc. Put this all together and you come up with a pretty bad scenario.
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@ okrapod:
Well, you were there right after WWII/during the Korean War, which also had (I’m sure) something to do with it. My folks got married at the beginning of WWII (at least, the beginning of the US’s involvement). They were almost 21 and almost 22, and they knew that they both wanted kids. But… very few men of their generation went to college, and almost zero women. Things didn’t change in that respect until the introduction of the G.I. Bill of Rights. At the same time, more and more young women began to go on to college from HS.
By the time I was in early grade school, in the mid-60s, marrying and starting a family was generally done (for those who were in college) right after they got their undergrad degrees. People getting married right out of HS was very much frowned upon, though of course, it still happened a lot.
I think that the vast increase in the number of people going for undergrad + grad programs has changed not only the job market, but has brought about a huge shift in the ages that people tend to get married and have children. Women who are in undergrad + grad programs tend to defer childbearing. It’s hard enough to get a PhD when you *don’t* have little ones, let alone when you do! And it still seems common for one spouse to work in order to help the other through grad programs – almost has to be that way, given the costs.
So yes, the concept of “teenagers” as we know it seems to be a post-war phenomenon, but I don’t think it’s necessarily about expectations so much as it is about enormous social changes.
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@ numo:
Oh, and… undergrad was also supposed to where and how women found husbands.
I think the older people in my generation (Boomers) were wise to reject that, even though many people of both sexes tend to find their spouses during undergrad.
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Irene wrote:
Kill one and a hundred will fall right into line.
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@ Gram3:
‘And the Far Side talking animals were also off-limits because animals are not made in the image of God.’
More likely that the powers that be didn’t want people to see Gary Larson telling it like it is. Having spent undergrad time drawing protozoa, this is one of my favourites:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/59087682/far-side-pulling-your-flagellum-nancy
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numo wrote:
Getting married right out of HS was still going strong when I graduated in the early Seventies.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It was, to a degree, where i lived, but very much on the wane. I think people saw martiage as something to be deferred until after ghry got some kind of post-HS education. There were a lot of single Vietnam vets in my undergrad dept., too.
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@ okrapod:
I read somewhere ten years ago on Slate that the adolescent was what happened when we decided to actually finally enforce prohibitions against child labor during the Depression so that men who were married and parents could get the jobs that were out there. Not everything in adolescence as we’ve come to understand it formulated in the Great Depression but it seems a lot of the core planks in the platform began there. Certainly the friends I made who were from Kenya during my college years said that the teenager thing didn’t exactly exist over there. Puberty hit? You’re an adult now, at least in the villages. In the cities it was a bit more like what we have here.
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@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Child labor was outlawed not entirely outlawed in the US until 1938, though there was a growing outcry from the early 1830s on, and a great deal of activism (including limited bans and sanctions) prior to that time.
When i was young, it was illegal for anyone to leave school prior to age 16. Not sure what the age is (in my state) now, though.
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@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Your Kenyan friends’ experience out in small villages = agrarian society. Which is, along with a small but growing middle class, probably the biggest difference. Though the sacrifices people make to obtain an education are shocking to most born and raised here. In one article i read, kids age 10 and up were walking long distances to sit under street lights in an airport parking lot in order to do their homework, as their folks were either unable to afford to be on the grid, and/or the grid is completely unpredictable, and kerosene lanterns were not practical. This was in a Wedt African country (Nigeria or Ghana, iirc) in a large city.
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Friend wrote:
No murderer has eternal life abiding in him is a quotation from 1 John 3 (worth reading for the context). The whole of this epistle is about authentic Christianity and how to distinguish between what people say and what they actuallyare. Just as there is a doctrinal minimum (“the fundamentals”) below which something is not really Christian, so there is a minimum change in behaviour as well. This latter is probably neglected in evangelical circles, who sometimes pay too much attention to someone being doctrinally correct but fail to check if this is worked out in practice. The ‘fruit’ that Law Prof quite rightly mentioned above.
Now any Christian can fall into sin and succumb to temptation. No-one attains sinless perfection, there is a life-long battle to overcome the tendency to do wrong or fail to do right. It’s when this becomes a regular characteristic of their life or if following their alleged conversion there is no real change in behaviour that their faith needs to be tested to see if it is genuine. … whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother. An ongoing life of sin negates a profession of faith. A Christian may fall into sin and commit adultery, for example, but there is no such thing as a ‘Christian adulterer’.
It’s not that Christians never do wrong, rather their conscience will no longer let them get away with it.
I would say that a murderer is not a Christian. In the present case the charge is manslaughter, but I think you are wrong to try to portray this as the action of genuine Christians (This young man was murdered in church by his congregation). This isn’t the no true Scotsman fallacy, nor an attempt to let Christians off the hook if and when they do wrong, but there really is a fake (false apostles, false brethren) in church circles that sooner or later manifests itself in evil behaviour.
At the end of the age this will all come to light, and the fake ‘believers’ will say `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ and âDepart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’. There will be no plea bargaining or negotiations about this, no higher court to appeal to.
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I don’t think I’m ready to say no one can murder and be a Christian. I know King David had the Holy Spirit, and, as many kings, did some heinous things, including murder. I don’t believe that murder, thievery, etc. disqualifies one from the kingdom of God, otherwise, what to do with the thief on the cross? I know about myself, the selfishness, the rages at those who love me, the struggles to treat others anything like the way I’d want to be treated, and yet I know I’m a follower of Jesus and the Holy Spirit is within me. All I can say is one can fight a lifelong battle with being a self-interested jerk and know Jesus. But it is a battle, I want to be closer to Jesus, I believe the Holy Spirit guides me in that direction.
But, when I see the ongoing, unrepentant ugliness from some groups and individuals, the people giving themselves over to idolatry of man such that it would compel them to slowly beat their child to death or to stand by while it happens, I have to wonder what spirit is at work, and wonder why people would bend themselves into rhetorical pretzels to make those people out to be sincere baptized believers in Christ.
When I see individuals who, over the course of decades, lift themselves up to self-proclaimed high positions of authority, abuse others in the name of Christ, cut them off from family, while strutting and making themselves out to be great things, bragging about the great works they’ve done, when the results are destroyed families and people who are, perhaps, now inoculated from pursuing a relationship with Jesus because they’ve been so abused by people who professed to represent Him, I wonder if those abusive leaders who seem to only double down on justifying themselves and throwing off the blame on others, are really believers at all. Shouldn’t there be some growth? A little repentance? Introspection? A little struggle? Shouldn’t we see some positive change over time? But we don’t seem to from many of these types, do we? They deny and deny, then when confronted with proof, they don’t even acknowledge that they’d been lying all along about what they’ve done, they immediately shift into the mode of “Well you’re no better, who are you to judge?” Then just as quickly they can profess a public repentance that chiefly can be summed up as “While I did make some mistakes for which I’ve apologized, I’m very sorry that you’ve all misunderstood my generally pure intentions all these years, and you should be ashamed for the ways you’ve treated me, your ungodly lack of forgiveness for my little mistakes.” When I see this, when I see a Driscoll or Gothard or Doug Phillips and their seeming inability to just repent, I wonder what they are. I do not assume them a brother, they may be, but even if so, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be called out for their evil and avoided at all costs.
I think if we embrace just anyone as a fellow believer because they tick off correct doctrine, we run the risk of inviting those very monsters into our midst.
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@ Law Prof:
“I donât think Iâm ready to say no one can murder and be a Christian. I know King David had the Holy Spirit, and, as many kings, did some heinous things, including murder.”
+++++++++++++
just being tangential here… but I often ponder intelligence agencies, and the use of assassins. It seems necessary. these people, who seem to perform a necessary service, are they disqualified from heaven? Can one be an assassin, have the very special skillset, and be a….’God-Jesus-Holy Spirit person’? (trying to avoid the loaded word “Christian”)
or maybe I’ve just read too many Robert Ludlum books.
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Lee Grady cited this case in his latest post, “6 Warning Signs of Spiritual Abuse,” published this morning at Charisma magazine’s website. He’s one of the few Charisma contributors I trust following a series of false or misleading predictions concerning the Shemitah, the Jewish High Holidays and last month’s lunar eclipse.
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Oops, I forgot to include the link.
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/24684-6-warning-signs-of-spiritual-abuse
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singleman wrote:
I don’t know what “Shamitah” means, but you have to be referring to the Four Blood Moons Rapture Scare.
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Law Prof wrote:
“Correct Doctrine” is just Christianese for “Purity of Ideology”, and we know what Purity of Ideology has justified in the past.
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Gram3 wrote:
So much for My Little Pony and Furry in general…
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okrapod wrote:
My idea of “adolescence” is that it is the transition phase between child and adult, and varies from culture to culture. On one end, you have cultures with distinct rites of passage where you go into the rite as a child and come out as an adult — all or nothing. On the other end, you have our culture where high-tech educational requirements and age-based cultural marketing have led to a long transition with no clear markers along the way.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Japan Now Has a ‘My Little Pony’ Cafe
http://mentalfloss.com/us/go/69967
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
There is a messianic rabbi, Jonathan Cohn, who writes about Jewish feasts and commemorations and such. He has popularized the shemitah which is the seventh year in a jewish recurring cycle of seven years. He says that various things have happened in the past at the shemitah years and he postulated that there might be economic or whatever things this time, the last shemitah ending last month. From what I have heard of what he says it has nothing to do with a rapture theory but has to do with judgment against nations.
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@ okrapod and @ HUG:
Cahn is on Christian TV constantly promoting that book and view, about the Shemitah. He’s on TBN quite a bit, and other Christian networks.
Before that, he was promoting a book called “The Harbinger.”
“PROPHET RABBI JONATHAN CAHN?”
http://apprising.org/2012/08/03/prophet-rabbi-jonathan-cahn/
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@ Daisy:
OK, Cahn not Cohn. I need to pay more attention to these things. I think that what he says and his style of delivery (like the talk in DC not too long ago) do sound like what the ancient prophets of Israel might say, basically that the nation must repent or else judgment is inevitable eventually.
Of course, others say similar stuff, like Franklin Graham sometimes IIRC, but Cahn looks the part pretty much.
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Christiane wrote:
Christiane, I want to thank you for speaking out for the most helpless among us. Little children (& elderly, disabled folks) are subjected to such horrible things and no one speaks for them. I feel certain that God will bless you (& already is blessing you) for following Him, instead of yielding to wicked cruel people. I wish I could reach across the miles & hug you for your stand.
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Law Prof wrote:
I agree. A person who consistently shows bad fruit is most likely a person who is either a nonbeliever, or someone so deeply involved in an evil enterprise that s/he has nothing but evil to show.
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@ zooey111:
“I agree. A person who consistently shows bad fruit is most likely a person who is either a nonbeliever, or someone so deeply involved in an evil enterprise that s/he has nothing but evil to show.”
++++++++++++++++++
or someone with a personality disorder.
I know someone who I have no doubts knows God very well, Holy Spirit living within and upon….. and she destroys people. She can’t help it.