At the request of the subject of this post, we have removed the post. Everything in the post was true and discussed with the subject before posting. Due to her new situation, it seems prudent to keep this aspect of her life private. If the are any questions, please feel free to contact us.
The Wartburg Watch 2024
Dissecting Christian Trends
First??? Wow!!!
I am so excited for Karen!
I am very happy for you, Karen Hinkley. A new beginning — it sounds very exciting! So solid. Drink deeply of the new and the next.
…and now I have 3 things to say:
1. friends who Karen has lost — what were you thinking?!?!?
2. Matt Chandler — how are you reaching out to others you and our church have harmed?
3. i want my own fried chicken-kimchee-on-homemade-bread sandwich
I think this is what it means..Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever..
It is mind boggling to me that Karen is “only” 27 years old – she has displayed a wisdom that is far beyond her chronological years. I hope that Karen will permit Dee to update us periodically on her life. We need more people like Karen advocating for the oppressed.
Fantastic! Way to go, Karen!
Thank You Father for this new chapter in her life!
nathan priddis wrote:
Amen!
Tears…right now. Of inexplicable happiness!
Karen, WE ALL LOVE YOU SO MUCH!!! We are so proud of you!! The way the law school treated you…nicely, humanely, kindly, the royal carpet…that’s what Matt Chandler and The Village Church should have done!
In three years, we will look forward to KAREN’S GRADUATION FROM LAW SCHOOL!
X0X0 (hugs and kisses)
So glad to hear all this good news about Karen! I wish her all the best in law school and beyond.
God does indeed bring about good things out of bad. Thank you, Lord! I’m sure there are still many more good things to come, as Karen goes forward with her new plan.
What an amazing testimony! Congratulations Karen on your acceptance with honor at a top-tier law school!
nathan priddis wrote:
Exactly. How fitting that she would choose the law. And how sad that The Village ELDERS disgraced themselves by holding her to their man-made “law” which was not about any high principle but rather about raw power and their pride which she wounded by not obeying their orders. I just have a feeling that the Lord will use her in her new profession. Kudos to the law school who recognized an exceptional human being.
elastigirl wrote:
Or maybe this:
Matt Chandler, how are you making changes in your church in order to keep from abusing good, innocent, and hardworking people like Karen?
Also, what changes are you making so that you are no longer turning people away from the goodness of Christ and causing so many to run screaming into the arms of atheism or paganism?
What a fantastic story! I am thrilled for Karen. Thanks be to God! Thanks also to Deebs and Amy Smith.
Dee and Karen … thank you for sharing such a wonderful picture of what redemption can look like.
Many of us who are survivors of spiritual abuse talk about ways we see God returning “beauty for ashes” in the aftermath of trauma. Often those points of help and hope are intimate and quiet. Once in a while our communities get to witness something fairly spectacular like what is transpiring here. Either way, our stories of the Lord’s power to redeem the damages caused by broken people are equally real.
And they all stand as memorials and reminders of what J.R.R. Tolkien talked about as “eucatastrophe” — a point of crisis when it seems evil will triumph or perhaps even all hope looks lost. And yet, at that turning point of crisis [-catastrophe] there is unexpected aid at a providential moment, and what seemed inevitably bound for destruction instead turns out for the good [eu-].
Karen, may the road ahead be one full of transformation and great blessing for you through learning and serving …
Karen, I’m apologize for misspelling your name so many times. May God bless you in your studies and make you a trophy of his grace and love. You are an amazing inspiration to so many. Thank you for standing firm in your freedom in Christ and for demonstrating such grace under trials which I cannot imagine. May God also bless the people you leaned upon during this. May God grant true repentance to those who abused you and fill them with full and true knowledge of him.
That made my day, Dee! You rock. And God is good!
Congratulations to Karen! 🙂
Karen,
You are my hero! So glad you and Dee are developing a special friendship. Praying for you as you begin a new chapter. Hope to meet you some day!
You were wearing a sweater, Dee? Sounds like a long way from Dallas! It was 106 on Monday! And there must be some dust blowing around, because I think there’s something in my eye…
Dee and Deb,
Please tell Pastor Wade Burleson in OK. about this happy news. He has covered the un-Biblical mess at The Village Church on his blog and what was done to Karen. Pastor Wade advised The Village Church of some important steps that they needed to take to *fix this* and what they did to Karen.
Mara wrote:
Idea: Paying for all of the women to go to law school!!!
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
And I want to second Todd’s thanks to Dee and Deb here at TWW and to Amy Smith for their contributions in hosting Karen’s story on their sites, in research writing, moderating comments, responding, and the whole range of seen and unseen ways they served in bringing Karen’s story to light. Grateful for their great example of teamwork …
What a wonderful turn of events! May these next weeks be a time of joyous new beginnings in her life, even as she continues to process all that has happened to bring her there.
@ brad/futuristguy:
I thank both you and Todd for your help and support.
@ Michelle Van Loon:
It is truly wonderful. i thank God he allowed me a front row seat.
Stan wrote:
It was. I have been having a lot of “dust in my eye” moments.
Karen,
I am so glad to hear this good news! It is wonderful to see what God is working in your life. I will continue to pray for healing and peace going forward. May God use your gifts in many exciting ways.
Gram3 wrote:
It is interesting that none of TVC’s elders have apologized for their role in this abusive behavior. I will discuss this tomorrow.
This is wonderful news with many, many answers to prayer. Looking forward to hearing more of the story as it continues. The Church needs more women like Dee, Deb and Karen.
Wow! Congratulations to Karen! Job well done to Dee for nurturing & telling Karen’s story so well & faithfully. Things CAN get better. Our God is an awesome God!
Niteowl wrote:
And Amy Smith in Texas at Watchkeep!
Curious – maybe you’ve answered this before and I missed it – how did she know to contact you at first? Where did she hear of you?
I love to hear how people are brought together.
Glad this story is getting a happy ending for her. She deserves it.
To Karen, thank you so much for standing up to the giants. You not only helped future members of TVC, but through your personal fortitude and perseverance you are also making other celebrity pastors think more carefully about how victims are treated in the future. Good on ya!
To the Deebs, thank you for your unflinching support and kindness towards all victims. You make it easier for vocal victims to come forward and for silent victims to believe survival and maybe even justice is possible.
The world is a far better place with y’all in it. I hope many more will find respite and, ultimately, happy endings like yours here.
W0W!!! I have more than a few tears in my eyes. Best wishes and Godspeed to Karen. What a true example of Biblical Womanhood. Not the submissive doormat woman that so many churches use to keep women down. A real role model.
dee wrote:
Somehow I think that will be a lively discussion. If Contracts is first semester, when is Torts?
dee wrote:
How seared must their consciouses be to not contact Karen and apologize?
This is an amazing update. I have tears in my eyes.
Thank you, Lord, for providing beyond all we can ask or think.
Bridget wrote:
Same ol same ol at TVC, band of jerks abusing people from what I’m hearing from others.
Amy Smith wrote:
So true, Amy.
Someone over at Pastor Wade Burleson’s blog, he wrote about why people should say *no* to church membership covenants (and he’s written about the greatest threat in our churches today is authoritarianism, not legalism) had someone from The Village Church who recently posted this:
“This is a very timely blog for me for two reasons: 1. I was just kicked out of my homegroup at The Village Church for daring to ask about the church covenant and to point out why I thought it was in conflict with the Scriptures. 2. The leaders of the homegroup lied and told the other members that I left of my own free will and they have asked me why I chose to leave. I have hesitated to answer them, but this has encouraged me to speak the truth in love and not avoid their questions.”
Bridget wrote:
Or is it upon the *orders* of General Matt Chandler at The Village Church?
He *speaks* for all? If they all messed up, they should all ‘fess up.
Been following this story. Good news!
Amazing story of an amazing woman! And some awesome facilitation by these awesome blogs. Karen, our hearts & prayers go with you in your new grand adventure!
Wow. Just wow. The holy spirit really is brilliant. Karen, many happy beginnings!
I ma very happy to hear this news. Karen Hinkley needs to work this issue and plow forward. Maybe she was created for such a time as this? 🙂 I’m thrilled for Karen! Hopefully I’ll get to meet her one of these days. Karen you make it to Washington, D.C. dinner/lunch or a brewsky is on me! 🙂
Velour wrote:
And amen again.
Karen,
When your cup runneth over, I know you will use what you have to fill the cups of others until they overflow!
I hope Matt Chandler and the elders at TVC are all shaking in their boots!
@ Velour:
“someone from The Village Church who recently posted this:
“…I have hesitated to answer them, but this has encouraged me to speak the truth in love and not avoid their questions.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
why oh why the hesitation??
this is crazy. full=fledged adults, afraid of the truth. adults, hesitating to answer honest questions which would right a wrong against themselves.
something is terribly wrong.
What JOY this brought me tonight. Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow — Praise Him, all creatures here below — Praise Him above, ye heavenly host — Praise Father, Son & Holy Ghost! Amen!! AMEN!!
elastigirl wrote:
Doesn’t it remind you of junior high? A gang? Honestly, there is *No Difference* between the functioning of a gang and that of these NeoCal/authoritarian churches.
@ elastigirl:
I concur elastigirl. “Truth in love” my arse. These guys are Huns and that’s exactly what they count on, timidity backed up by the Bible verses and no resistance from their victims at all.
I am so, so happy for you, Karen! You will be such an amazing advocate. As someone who has experienced much pain, you will be able to connect with people much more quickly than someone else who hasn’t had such an experience. When I think of my abuse situation and having to trust others to help me, that was a big hurdle. It won’t be as much of a hurdle for others when they know where you came from. I cannot think of a more perfectly designed field for you to enter. I am thrilled to pieces! Congratulations!
This is really wonderful. 🙂
Hmm . . . the smiley faces didn’t show up. But I am so happy about this news, thank you for sharing!
@ Velour:
Be glad you were kicked out of your homegroup. Run away and never look back – all they are is mechanisms of control. My wife and I are very successful professionals with a busy life and during our homegroup tenure at TVC we would often be asked where we were when not in attendance. Finally they asked us to leave because we couldn’t attend every week. We realized we didn’t have to put up with being parented because we weren’t in highschool anymore. Leaving was the best thing we’ve ever done.
Gabriel wrote:
But they were.
Alpha Males & Females of their High School Clique, quarterbacks & cheerleaders who would gladly become sparkling vampires if it meant they could stay 17 and in high school forever.
As was said on the Web of Hillary fanboys in 2008:
“They have never left high school. They will never leave high school. And they will never ever let any of us leave high school. EVER.”
@ Gabriel:
“…during our homegroup tenure at TVC we would often be asked where we were when not in attendance. ”
+++++++++++++++
gabriel – the leaders, are they church staff? are they young? have they worked in jobs other than church?
what you (& many others, too) describe is of leaders sorely lacking understanding of what real life in the real world is like for people (work, family, not to mention things like social communities other than church, humanitarian/environmental activism, hobbies, recreation, self-improvement, time to relax….)
did these leaders never have understanding to begin with? have they always been isolated in some unreal world? or have they put a once-had understanding away in some box and exchanged it for this controlling & contortionist code of conduct?
in short, what’s wrong with these leaders? how did they get this way?
Living within 40 minutes of a Village church I have actually heard great things before this incident. Really grieves me that they resorted to Gestapo reasoning for two months with her before apologizing when issues of lies and fraud were exactly why she divorced. Looking at the Torah and Jewish context of divorce and fraud it is totally supportive of her decision.
This is wonderful news, Karen. I wish you well with your studies and much happiness in your new life.
Thank you so much for the update, Dee. I have been looking forward to this post.
Beautiful story. Thank you for your good work and care for Karen.
This exciting outcome makes me wonder how many other brilliant young women there are in these systems who are not living out or even seeking to live out their potential because of the man made system they are in. Our world needs these brilliant young men and women out there making a difference. Not stuck in these psuedo Christian systems being limited by the egotisical leaders and their “roles”.
Another thought was more controversial but one I have ruminating on since Karen was 17. :o) It is that there is so much more believers can do in the real world than in a “ministry” career. I cannot think of a place more limiting and dangerous than a ministry career when it comes to women. And I get to see it quite a bit as people tend to gravitate to me to tell their stories, too. Just this past year I know of a young woman so excited to work with youth who completed a masters in counseling, got a job working with youth in a mega and then told a year in they changed their minds about a woman in that position. She is out with no unemployment or health insurance. Her planned life work totally disrespected. Her only crime was being a woman. There are a few of us really encouraging her to think outside the “ministry” job box.
So kudos to Karen for choosing a path where she really can a difference for victims without the limiting of enforced “roles”.
As to TVC, I think it would benefit the kingdom more if they dissolved. The leaders are who they are. If they want to “change” chances are pretty strong, they would need to leave the system they benefit from so much.
Karen, I am very glad for you!
As Nathan mentioned above, all who’ve been treated badly will eventually be able to sit at a table prepared by God in front of those who’ve done harm. But wow, it’s plain delightful to see you sitting at it now! A clearer point could not be made. w00t
May God continue to bless you, dear lady!
@ Gabriel:
I second that. Now a corner of the world can benefit from her advocacy and compassion.
After reading the news about Karen, this is how I feel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfPg5LjGYz8
This is so wonderful to hear, Karen! Praise God for blessing you so richly, and bringing into your life people who care for you, and who recognize your talents and your amazing character. I’m praying for more blessings to you over the next three years, and for many years to come!
Dee, thanks so much for being there for Karen, and for passing on this joyous news.
To borrow a phrase from Stan Lee: Excelsior!!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
My experience is that the ones deeply into this were likely *not* the alphas and cheerleaders, and ISTM they were trying to become alphas via the church because it wasn’t going to happen in the real world. But I can see how an alpha/cheerleader could also be drawn to this to keep their good thing going. Regardless, there is a need to be the one at the top of the pile by some means.
Casey wrote:
Your comment reminds me of a young man I know who used to think very highly of Matt Chandler and the Gospel Glitterati in general. He was appalled by this incident, and the last of the scales remaining have fallen from his eyes about this movement. I suspect there are many others who were similarly affected.
Lydia wrote:
What a great point! God has a way of doing things in unusual ways. He has elevated a young woman who was put down by the System and in the process has shined a light on the shameful System. Kind of like Esther, another young woman with great courage to go before the kings. I hope a lot of young women are following this story and are encouraged by it.
Amazing, simply amazing! I am so excited for Karen!
P.S. I am also excited for Karen’s future clients!
Here’s an article I wrote on the 9 Marks conference on church discipline at SEBTS plus some analysis on Jonathan Leeman and discipline of para church organizations.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/sebts-church-discipline-conference-9-marks-jonathan-leeman-and-eric-cartman-say-respect-my-authoritah/
D & D,
I love stories, and I particularly love this one. I am very interested in the story of Karen’s childhood and youth, and her journey to the mission field. Any chance she might give us a short version—maybe even a thousand words or less?
Ruth
__
Karen,
Good luck and godspeed on your journey. Thank-You for your faithfulness to Christ Jesus.
He is forever faithful.
Mucho prayers your way!
ATB
IHS
Sopy
—
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly, the church Alphas today were often nerds and the football players and cheerleaders would not speak to in high school…..and often, these guys at some point try and teach school… They can’t ” cut it” in the classroom either…
i am so happy for Karen! Congratulations on these great steps.
@ Ruth Tucker:
I will let her know of your request. However, she will be immersed in studies so it might take awhile.
OnlyEleven wrote:
Just pray that I won’t have to be one of them!!!!!!
Casey wrote:
I will be writing my view on this today.
Gabriel wrote:
Wow! This would make a good story for the blog. I have been hearing more and more about rigid home groups. Let me know if you are interested. You can maintain your anonymity.
Congratulations, Karen! I wish you all the best as you move forward.
@ Gabriel:
PS-(Not TVC)Do rules driven groups believe that the world lives by their schedule? I know one woman who had to drop her kid off at Boy Scouts and would need be 10 minutes late. The group leader said that God obviously didn’t want her in their group!
Another woman lost her husband to cancer. She got a call saying she had missed too many meetings and she should consider dropping out.
@ Bridget:
I will deal with this today.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Thank you to you Todd. It is folks like you and Karen who inspire us to fight on.
Gram3 wrote:
Torts are often avoided by immediate apologies.
@ Debbylynn:
Yay!
I’ve been following this story and am so heartened to hear of this great news…. Karen I have great admiration for you and the clarity that you maintained throughout this ordeal…. !! Reading of your wonderful news made my day! A hearty congratulations!!!
Lydia wrote:
Question for anybody in the know about this stuff:
How is it that religious non-profit entities are allowed to skirt the laws all the other non-profits must abide by?
dee wrote:
Yes, and it is a good thing for certain people that Karen is so gracious. There is some dispute regarding “immediate” and “apology” among some of the rest of us. The important thing is this great news and that she was not destroyed by these men!
Just had someone share this piece she wrote on spiritual abuse a few years ago. She knows what she’s talking about because she has experienced it personally. Churches (pseudo-spiritual corporations) with toxic systems like TVC do not abuse people because of a few “rogue” leaders but because of the systemic toxicity that comes from the top down. And it is never isolated to just one person’s story, like Karen. They finally got exposed by a brave young woman who decided…NOPE! And in trying to control Karen in abusive, harassing ways, TVC also has enabled and protected a pedophile, thus endangering children. I hope TVC is fully complying with TX mandatory reporting law about Jordan Root. I hope TVC is not trying to oversee a pedophile and investigate child sex crimes on their own apart from law enforcement.
http://internetcafedevotions.com/2011/11/surviving-spiritual-abuse/
1. Spiritual abuse is real and pervasive in the Church today. Spiritual abuse manifests in varying ways such as spiritual bullying, spiritual power plays, wielding authority and position recklessly or callously, manipulation, lying, controlling, suppressing, diminishing, dismissing others in an attempt to control outcomes, maintain or grab position and power. Spiritual abusers are often people who don’t know how to deal with conflict, problems, negative realities and differing viewpoints, personalities, and backgrounds in healthy, mature ways.
Dee, what a wonderful outcome. When I took the LSAT, I received scholarship offers, and it was quite an experience.
The best advice I got was from an student even older than I was and two years ahead of me. It was to take the best teachers, focus on what they expect on exams (law school exams are very strange), so you can prepare for them, and have fun. Do not worry about the bar exam until your last semester — then take the prep course!
Dee, if you want to pass my contact info to Karen, please feel free to do so. I would be willing to encourage her and perhaps provide a little insight into the law school experience.
@ Muff Potter:
Because of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, as interpreted by the Supreme Court and the lower courts.
The person so dismissed should immediately apply for coverage under the Affordable Care Act. She may well qualify for low cost or essentially free coverage. In some states, she could apply for Medicaid coverage that is basically free if not eligible for the ACA.
dee wrote:
Apologies go a long way. It’s one thing for Matt Chandler to apologize as the CEO so-to-speak, but these other pastors who dealt directly with Karen (and did much harm) should as well. I admit, I’m suspicious as it appears more like the heat was on and damage control than anything else…but if Karen is at peace, that’s what matters.
Dee, thank you for keeping us abreast on Karen’s life. This has hit close to home for many of us..myself included as TVC is in my backyard and I know many who attend and/or adore Chandler. I wish Karen nothing but success in her future endeavors!!
@ Lydia:
“This exciting outcome makes me wonder how many other brilliant young women there are in these systems who are not living out or even seeking to live out their potential because of the man made system they are in. Our world needs these brilliant young men and women out there making a difference. Not stuck in these psuedo Christian systems being limited by the egotisical leaders and their “roles”.
+++++++++++++++++++
absolutely true. the sky really is the limit, isn’t it? glass ceilings exist, but why willingly subject yourself to one of them?
no one can be you but you. it’s like the most responsible thing a person can do with their lives. be you to the FULLEST.
no one can have the unique influence & impact that you have. if kept under wraps, it’s like a song that won’t ever be sung. think of your favorite pieces of music… it would be like never ever having heard those. it’s like a discovery or invention that can change the world, but which won’t ever happen.
———————————
“…there is so much more believers can do in the real world than in a “ministry” career. I cannot think of a place more limiting and dangerous than a ministry career when it comes to women.”
——————————–
the way i see it, a church is a hungry machine, that has to be constantly fed. salaries, insurance, utilities, landscaping & new carpet & new paint & new technological toys and wow things (oh crimany), conferences & their travel/food/lodging costs, & much more. Many egos, personal insecurities, and fears have to be fed with other human lives.
even my most recent church, which was the best of all churches (in my broad experience), demanded and commanded (so subtly, without seeming like demands & commands) so very much of my life and my time. i truly had no time for anything else.
turns out my neighborhood is LOADED with opportunity to invest in people, create community, bring people together, create resources for spirituality and friendship and mutual support for things like being caregiver to elderly & ill parents.
since taking a step back from it, i am loaded with inspiration and energy and time to do something where I live. god-jesus-holy spirit in me. no middle man managing me required. to have a direct impact. as opposed to an indirect impact, or perhaps having my impact co-opted by church leaders to feed their insecurities.
the sky is the limit.
From the original post:
Boy, that must have been some personal statement. And she must’ve rocked those LSATs…
Muff Potter wrote:
Divine Right.
__
Karen,
Good luck and godspeed on your journey. Thank-You for your faithfulness to Christ Jesus.
He is forever faithful.
Mucho prayers your way!
ATB
IHS
Sopy
🙂
—
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I agree. To have that effect…
Is Karen willing to publish or post it so we can see what had that sort of impact on the admissions board?
An Attorney wrote:
I understand that. We have a long history of not meddling in the affairs of religion and of not letting religion meddle in the affairs of state. That’s a good thing. It protects a pastor in his pulpit when he preaches against homosexuality, and he can rest assured that no ‘hate speech’ law will prevent him, no matter how well intentioned and well crafted.
It also prevents those of a particular religious persuasion from denying same-sex couples the right to marry as they see fit.
This is well and good and I believe it’s what the Founders of our great Nation intended. But I don’t think the same rubric applies in the domain of the labor laws and employee protections all others must adhere to. As more and more cases come up for review in the courts, I’m convinced we’ll be forced to rethink what religious freedom is and what it is not.
@ Muff Potter:
If they can prove that the basis of their discrimination is based on their statement of beliefs, women are never allowed to speak in church, for example, they get a pass.
Muff Potter wrote:
Not dealing with the specific issue of health coverage, but the general question of churches not having to live up to the same standards as other non-profits.
FWIW, this same question came up with all the “shenanigans” going on with Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll and whether laws were broken and whether IRS regulations were breached and such. **NOTE: I am not a lawyer. I am a research writer. This information needs confirmation and/or correction — and I don’t have time to do the follow-up research needed. But this should give some leads.**
The main issue, as best I can recall from conversations with investigative reporter Becky Garrison, is that the IRS regulations are still in place for churches/religious non-profits — but that there had been an Executive Order in 2009 for the IRS to STOP conducting investigations into alleged regulatory rule breaking by churches/religious non-profits. If I remember correctly, a situation came up with an IRS investigation of a Christian religious entity in the late 2000 decade, and Congress got involved as it appeared that the IRS was targeting churches, and so it was an issue of “religious freedom.” From then on, there hasn’t been that kind of in-depth investigation of a church by the IRS.
Because of this, it wasn’t necessarily going to work in 2014/2015 to report Mars Hill Church to the IRS for potential regulatory/legal issues of inurement, excess benefits, not following their own governance documents, conflicts of interest, etc., because of the Executive Order not to investigate churches.
Thus, filing a RICO lawsuit was a route taken that puts the investigation into the legal realm of courts, instead of the regulatory realm of the IRS.
Another option was to report Mars Hill for-profit and non-profit corporations to the Attorney General in Washington State for alleged misuse of their registered corporation status granted by that state, and/or failure to follow state requirements and regulations for non-profits. I’m fairly certain that some people formerly from Mars Hill did register complaints, but I haven’t heard of any follow-up investigation from the Attorney General’s office.
Hope that all makes sense. Basically, the nataional/IRS regulations and laws are still on the books for religious non-profits, but there’s been a hands-off policy for 6+ years. And meanwhile, it seems some christian-ish leaders are acting with impunity.
Some of the regulatory/legal issues are dealt with in this research post I did on Mars Hill. It defines and describes the issue, and includes links to IRS documents where the regulations are listed.
https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/mars-hill-case-study/04-specific-legal-ethical-issues/
Also, the following investigative reporting article by Becky Garrison goes into a lot of detail about Mars Hill, IRS-related issues, some of the history behind churches with questionable practices not being investigated, and the very important larger question of whether not requiring churches to meet IRS regulations is preferential treatment.
twitdoc.com/3KE2
Gabriel wrote:
@Gabriel,
I quoted someone from The Village Church who posted over at Pastor Wade Burleson’s blog. I, however, had my own experience of being *keyed out* (excommunicated/shunned) of a NeoCal church recently. My *crime*? I inadvertently discovered, while doing research for a prosecutor about another Megan’s List sex offender in our county that a new church member at my church was also a Megan’s List sex offender! He was placed by the pastors/elders in positions of leadership/trust. When I reported him to them, they said they knew, he was their friend, and they had no problem with him being a sex offender and that he was *harmless*. To that end, they also invited him to volunteer at a children’s sports camp hosted by the church, without telling all parents (both church members and unbelievers who entrusted their children to our church). Ditto for the private school that rented their facility to my former NeoCal church.
The pastors/elders spent plenty of meetings screaming and yelling at me. Ditto for threats by phone. I would not back down.
I had also watched the Megan’s List sex offender run his hands through my friends’ young son’s hair, and his parents had no idea that the man was a Megan’s List sex offender. The pastors/elders said they had no problem with it. I said I did: “In the language of sex crimes, it’s called ‘grooming’ – getting a child used to a sex offender and breaking down the barriers.”
Thankfully that family, when I reported that I paid a high price for protecting their young son packed up and moved out of the area under the pretense of being near family. If they hadn’t used that excuse, they would have been excommunicated/shunned.
I am thankful to be out of the whole nut house of the NeoCal church/movement.
Kudos to you and your wife.
Congratulations, Karen!!! Awesome news!
This is fantastic news. I was impressed with Karen’s clear, articulate writing and the measured but firm, determined way she handled herself in the back and forth emails with the church leadership that you published some time back. Many people in her position would have been cowed, or would have struggled to express themselves in such an effective manner. Not surprised to learn that she scored high on the LSAT and I expect she will excel in law school.
Some years back an attorney I know left his job at a large firm to work with International Justice Mission. The work of that organization sounds like the sort of thing Karen described in her personal statement. Best wishes to her in this next phase of her life.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, didn’t the English go through that same concept in the 1640s? Seems like it didn’t turn out so well for Charles I….
Best wishes to Karen. She sounds capable and tough minded and it is good to see her get a start in a new and promising direction.
dee wrote:
That’s fine, that’s dandy, and if that’s what floats their boats (no wimminz speaking in church) so be it. The State will not interfere nor exceed its mandate. But once they enter into an employer / employee relationship, it becomes a horse of a different color, and the laws everybody else must abide by should apply to them also.
Muff Potter wrote:
In the case of churches/religious organizations, under freedom of religion they are exempt from many employment and civil rights laws and the courts have repeatedly ruled this way. I previously posted a very good New York Times series on this, but I can’t look it up now as I am writing a legal brief.
@ Karen:
May Providence continue to work her magic on your behalf. Mayhap one day you’ll be an advocate for those (both women & men) who have no stellar talents and who will never have a happy ending unless someone of your caliber stands up for them.
@ Muff Potter:
When Patterson demoted Dr. Sheri Klouda from her teaching position at SWBTS because he believed women should not be teaching men, his attorney argued that SWBTS operated as a church– so it was not discrimination.
Muff Potter wrote:
I agree, because at this point, churches want to operate as a typical non profit business but without the government rules for reporting/labor laws. This has really become an issue with the rise of mega churches. Years ago, it was common for a church to only have a few employees. Now they have tiers of staffers.
Amy Smith wrote:
Bingo. The systems need to be dismantled by people leaving them.
Lydia wrote:
Here is the New York Times series which explains why religious institutions are exempt from most employment and civil rights laws (and there is “case law”, judge made law from the appellate courts upholding this). While the NYT series
is about nine years old, for legal purposes it still holds true:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/business/09religious.html?pagewanted=all
Another interesting article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/magazine/what-are-the-limits-of-religious-liberty.html?_r=0
This is just brilliant news.
Lydia wrote:
And we have a winner (to quote, I believe it’s Mark, who posts here).
Beakerj wrote:
Lydia wrote:
Wasn’t she the one with the sick husband who had to sell her blood to pay for bills? Patterson and his ilk are evil.
^No clue why Beakerj’s lovely comment ending up in my response about SWBTS.
@ dee:
Hi Dee. Let’s talk. I’d be happy to share and dialogue.
Karen, this song has sort of been my anthem lately. It also reminds me of you. You might only have one match, but you can make an explosion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo1VInw-SKc
elastigirl wrote:
None of the leaders we were in group with were young or staff. However the staff at TVC are the ones who dictate policy to group leaders. So along with covenant membership there is a group expectation that often clashes with people with lives in the real world.
Velour wrote:
Wow that made my skin crawl a bit. I believe without a doubt that the church is very naive in how they deal with predators (or former predators) in their midst. The only way that changes is for parents to stand up and say “enough is enough” and demand a change from leadership or simply vote with their feet. Thanks for sharing.
Gabriel wrote:
Yes, it has made the skin crawl of people I know in countries around the world.
The pastors/elders told me that I was *destined for Hell* for standing my ground with them – about child sexual abuse prevention/safety! I wonder what they tell the church’s insurance company (most of the insurance companies insist on child safety programs because it’s the No. 1 reason that church’s get sued every single year: Sexual Abuse of Minor Children).
I don’t think that churches are *naïve*. I think that the authoritarians in power are practicing plenty of other abuses in secret. How could they speak out about this form of abuse when they can’t even police themselves?
1. Article by attorney (Harvard-educated) Richard Hammer with Church Law & Tax about the top five reasons that churches were sued in 2014. Child Sexual Abuse ranks at No. 1, as it has EVERY SINGLE YEAR for years on end! (Hammer researches thousands of cases filed every year in courts in the US.)
http://www.churchlawandtax.com/blog/2015/may/top-5-reasons-churches-went-to-court-in-2014.html
2. Church Mutual (the largest insurer of churches in the U.S.)
https://www.churchmutual.com/169/Child-and-Youth-Sexual-Abuse
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the evangelical church according to insurance companies, attorneys, law enforcement, sex crimes experts, and psychologists, and others in this field. The problem now exceeds the epidemic of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, which had to implement serious reforms after decades of arrests, convictions, and lawsuits.
@ Gabriel:
the leaders in your group– what happened to them? it’s like they sold their ability to think and feel to the powers that be in exchange for a homegroupship.
did they seem to have any shades of remorse, or emotional conflict calling these shots?
Velour wrote:
And this why (in my opinion) the courts need to lose their squeamishness when dealing with these kinds of non-profits. What was done to Sheri Klouda is no less evil than what was done to Dred Scott in 1857.
And by the way, thanx for reposting the links to the various court decisions having to do with religious non-profits.
Muff Potter wrote:
Here is Pastor Wade Burleson’s excellent article about Dr. Sheri Kouda (professor of Hebrew): http://www.wadeburleson.org/2007/01/sheri-klouda-gender-discrimination_17.html
Muff Potter wrote:
The courts, especially The U.S. Supreme Court, rarely overturn the Court’s prior decisions unless there is a compelling constitutional reason to do so. I like the Henry Fonda movie “Gideon’s Trumpet” which is the true story of an elderly inmate who had been convicted for robbing a pool hall in Florida, he repeatedly asked for counsel to represent him, he was told he could not have counsel, and he wrote the U.S. Supreme Court. The U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Mr. Gideon, thus the office of the Public Defender was born.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon%27s_Trumpet
Here’s the real case – documents and oral arguments (year 1963) – before the U.S. Supreme Court in Gideon v. Wainwright, here: https://beta.oyez.org/#/cases/1962/155
Muff Potter wrote:
The courts, especially The U.S. Supreme Court, rarely overturn the Court’s prior decisions unless there is a compelling constitutional reason to do so. I like the Henry Fonda movie “Gideon’s Trumpet” which is the true story of an elderly inmate who had been convicted for robbing a pool hall in Florida, he repeatedly asked for counsel to represent him, he was told he could not have counsel, and he wrote the U.S. Supreme Court. The U.S. Supreme Court agreed with Mr. Gideon, thus the office of the Public Defender was born.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon%27s_Trumpet
Here’s the real case – documents and oral arguments (year 1963) – before the U.S. Supreme Court in Gideon v. Wainwright, here: https://beta.oyez.org/#/cases/1962/155
Dear Law School That Admitted Karen,
From the bottom of our hearts, thank you for admitting Karen to your law school, caring about her as a human being, caring about what she has gone through, treating her so well, arranging for her to have full scholarships, internships, and help finding her a place to live (and helping her with other expenses).
With appreciation,
All of your fans at The Wartburg Watch in countries around the world!
Velour wrote:
Yet another example of what the Female Subordinationist interpretation of protecting and honoring and cherishing and nurturing looks like. Words fail.
Gram3 wrote:
Yes, Gram3, words fail at the sheer meanness of these authoritarian tyrants.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Thanks for the great song! I am dancing after a long day at work!
Velour wrote:
I love that song! It’s my fight song, too.
Rachel Platten gave Children’s Specialized Hospital permission to use her song in their video to encourage their kids. This makes me cry every time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugxns0hYZqo
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
We all need *fight* songs.
I am so glad to know you here. And I’m glad that your family got out of that cult, Heritage whatever it’s called. I looked it up. Very quaint looking and I can see how it would trap people. Very overbearing too from what I could read.
@ Gram3 & Velour:
Klouda’s case is all the more reason to revamp the laws with regard to religious entities which enter into an employer / employee relationship. Burleson’s argument and mine are very similar, there is a stark difference between meddling in the affairs of a church, and disregarding the law of the land and its protections for all.
When men will not restrain themselves, it is the legitimate prerogative and domain of the State to do so.
Velour wrote:
In Gideon v. Wainwright, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned an earlier case of The Court’s (which is quite unusual):
Facts of the case
Clarence Earl Gideon was charged in Florida state court with a felony: having broken into and entered a poolroom with the intent to commit a misdemeanor offense. When he appeared in court without a lawyer, Gideon requested that the court appoint one for him. According to Florida state law, however, an attorney may only be appointed to an indigent defendant in capital cases, so the trial court did not appoint one. Gideon represented himself in trial. He was found guilty and sentenced to five years in prison. Gideon filed a habeas corpus petition in the Florida Supreme Court and argued that the trial court’s decision violated his constitutional right to be represented by counsel. The Florida Supreme Court denied habeas corpus relief.
Question
Does the Sixth Amendment’s right to counsel in criminal cases extend to felony defendants in state courts?
Conclusion
Unanimous decision for Clarence Earl Gideon
Cited from: Oyez website
@ Muff Potter:
I wonder if employer/employee relationships shouldn’t fall under the same category as health and safety issues. I’m nervous about protecting religious freedom, but I’m also nervous about arbitrary application of “religious” whitewash, as the Klouda case (and all of the Mohler cases) seems to me to be. I know of another case where church employees were pushed out so that favored new seminary graduates could come and take their place and presumably be more loyal to the Lead Pastor. At the very least there needs to be some academic legal discussion about these kinds of issues.
Gram3 wrote:
Agreed. I too get very nervous with religious freedom issues. Muzzling a pastor who preaches against homosexuality from his pulpit? Forcing a church or clergyman to perform a same-sex marriage ceremony? Not on these shores not ever!
But when it comes to employment and livelihoods, I believe the game changes dramatically and that the issues should be up for review on a case-by-case basis.
Here’s a link to a newspaper article on a fundagelical mega-biggie church in my area that fired 11 folks from their positions at their K-12 school when a newly installed senior pastor set out on his own Stalinist purge for ideological purity.
The particulars are chillingly similar to the Klouda imbroglio:
http://www.pe.com/articles/school-694811-crossroads-religious.html
Karen,
First of all, thank you for standing in the gap. When your stand became public,protections were put in place so that children wouldn’t be victimized, some church leaders gained an understanding of pedophilia and the need for expert oversight in addition to any church services, and the way the covenants and “church discipline” work in these circles was held up to the light so that others could be warned. Those are good outcomes for the Church, but I know the cost to you was high. You are a prime example of following Christ, whose choice to sacrifice himself defeated death, the enemy, and brought about our redemption. I am glad for you that the new chapter is starting out so well. May God equip you through your education and these experiences to continue to stand in the gap alongside those who on their own would not be able to stand.
@ Muff Potter:
That was an awful article to read. So disappointing. Some of the people fired weren’t even teachers, not that I think the teachers should have been fired. The school hired these people knowing their beliefs didn’t line up with the schools. Some of the people had worked there for many years. I find the school’s actions despicable. The sign at the front of the building is a joke – “Who are you going to bless today?” The school/church can’t even bring themselves to bless their own employees.
Wow! Congratulations to Karen!
elastigirl wrote:
If there was we didn’t see it and it was never expressed. I had two (well three) homegroup experiences at TVC and each of them had unique dysfunctions. I know people are not perfect but I think the concept is more broken as a whole no matter who is leading it.
@ Gabriel:
“I know people are not perfect but I think the concept is more broken as a whole no matter who is leading it”
++++++++++++++
hi, Gabriel. thanks for the interaction. I feel like i’m machine gunning you with questions. I really want to understand all this better. I’ve had my own run-ins with life-ruining crazy-weirdness in churches. i’m on the outside now, and looking in i pick up on more things i hadn’t seen before (ie, people at church A, when they’re at church A, all walk the same with the same gait and speed, all use the same language & voice intonation and facial expressions, seem to respond in a mindless, automaton way to the leader during a church service).
re: your statement above, ‘the concept’ that is broken — would the concept be described as small groups with rigid rules? small groups as outposts in a totalitarian state carrying out the regime? these seem like apt descriptions.
how else would you describe/explain the concept that is broken?
@ elastigirl:
Gabriel — i’m hammering yet still… WHY did the intelligent adults (at least the leaders) in your TVC small groups turn off their own thinking and feeling?
elastigirl wrote:
elastigirl wrote:
Let me add my $.02. In my experience the leaders of these small groups are chosen by the pastors/elders of the church. The pastors/elders choose people like themselves to run the small groups. No one who is capable, or shows, independent thought it chosen.
@ Bridget:
What else is there to say? The dean of UC Irvine’s law school said pretty much the same thing as Burleson and Potter. And did you notice that it’s the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Bernardino which has a fair and equitable policy already in place?
The irony is rich no? — given Booher’s vitriolic hatred of all things Catholic, it’s a bunch of Romish Papists who have demonstrated the love of Christ and not his fundagelical church.
There’s just one last thing to say on this but I think the song-poet Bob Dylan says it better than I can:
Come gather ’round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You’ll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin’
Then you better start swimmin’
Or you’ll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin’.
Rant over, I swear!, I promise!, honest Injun!
elastigirl wrote:
Years ago, I went with several other single ladies from my cult to eat at a Chinese restaurant after church. The Chinese man who waited on us asked if we were all a part of the founding elder’s family. You know, we all used the “the same language & voice intonation and facial expressions.” We all also, apparently, looked alike.” 🙂 I’ve never forgotten that. The poor guy was truly perplexed trying to figure us out.
Gram3 wrote:
Calvinism is law, pure and simple. Ms. Hinkley’s story is an inside glimpse of a religious system that is legalistic and patriarchal, while clothed in a message of “grace” … but not freedom in Christ that true Grace brings. Ms. Hinkley has not emerged as a victim of Village Church and its New Calvinism, but a victor over it.
Max wrote:
The Village Church, and other NeoCal churches, are AUTHORITARIAN. That’s what makes them so incredibly dangerous. It’s way beyond legalism.
I like (conservative Baptist) Pastor Wade Burleson’s articles on the subject:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/our-problem-is-authoritarianism-and-not.html
http://www.wadeburleson.org/search?q=+membership+covenants
http://www.wadeburleson.org/search?q=+women+in+leadership
Wade is the pastor on The Wartburg Watch’s EChurch on Sundays.
So lovely to read some great news! I’am delighted for Karen. The incredible news on her scores probably overshadowed a mention to all who gave to her go fund me account. Though I didn’t give, the folks who did must have blessed her soul too.
This just shows once again that if a woman is freed to do and go and be, she will excel to the highest height. She will be who she is, which is an extraordinary human being. Why can't the church see who they are holding down and how it affects what could have been great contributors to this world. I often wonder how different this country, world, and our churches would be if there would always have been Karens. Women who accomplished what this young woman has, but the church held them back with erroneous patriarchy views.
How many women have we heard of when they are free of the male patriarchy of the church, succeed like Karen has. First they seem to have to be beaten down by the church. May this be a lesson that the church is doing wrong, in fact they are cruel, by holding women back from their true calling which is to be everything Karen and others are now. I am so happy for you Karen.
Velour wrote:
No doubt about it, Velour! New Calvinist leaders are extremely authoritarian in that they favor complete obedience and subjection to their authority, as opposed to personal Christian freedom as the Spirit leads. Ms. Hinkley’s experience is just a glimpse at how controlling they can be, when they attempt to strip you of your individual rights before God.
New Calvinists are opposed to the free church of Jesus Christ, soul competency, and priesthood of the individual believer. If they can get you to reject such truths as the normal Christian life, they own you. They are controlling thousands of young folks via the beliefs and practices of reformed theology. This is a dangerous theological system … we are losing a generation to it. Jesus weeps.
Karen,
Thank you for going public with your story. God has used it for good. Many congratulations on your law scholarships. I am not surprised – I knew from the way you handled your crisis – with such elegance, grace and wisdom – that you were one exceptional person.
Dee,
Thank you for supporting Karen and for advocating for her. You are a compassionate, gracious Christian. Please don’t give up blogging any time soon 🙂
Max wrote:
In this, they follow in the footsteps of their REAL Lord and Szvior, Calvin.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Stepford Church Ladies all running the same exact software?
Max wrote:
Spot on, Max!
Julie Anne at her blog Spiritual Sounding Board noted that so many of the NeoCal churches have the name *Grace* in their names, but it’s the quality that they all lack.
Pingback: Eagle’s Recommendations on how to Improve Neo-Calvinism and Make it Healthy | Wondering Eagle
Velour wrote:
Whew, what a line! AMEN!!
Another observation on church names in regard to SBC church plants. The church signs show no affiliation with the SBC. “Southern Baptist” cannot be found, unless you discover it tucked away in a corner of the website. These young pastors welcome SBC church planting funds contributed by SBC’s non-Calvinist majority, but won’t acknowledge their affiliation with the denomination!
@ Max:
I thought they were going to be “Great Commission Baptists”. :o)
Max wrote:
This cannot be repeated enough.
elastigirl wrote:
At the seeker megas it was the use of the same plastic surgeon group and real estate brokers. :o)
Lydia wrote:
Well, dear Lydia … there is nothing “Great” about it as the watchblogs testify … the “Commission” is Calvinization … “Baptists”? – more like Presbyterians actually.
Lydia wrote:
Robots under the control of a Sovereign God, who controls their every move. They are totally depraved with a total inability to think and make choices on their own without the direct involvement of a determinant God. A frozen chosen in space and time waiting for their eternal destiny to inherit the Kingdom of God as the elect predestined before the foundation of the world. Parrots of John Calvin while they pass their time on earth.