"Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man, and then I will show you a man that can comprehend the Triune God." – John Wesley link
TWW has been watching the ARC in the last 6 months or so. We were approached by a group of people who discovered, in fairly short order, that their church, affiliated with the ARC, had modalistic view of God.. This is their story, told in their words. I have highlighted some phrases I found interesting. For those of you who have not read our various posts on the ARC here are some links to get you going: link, link, link, link. You can put the word ARC into our search button and call them all up.
My name is Doug Shea. I have been a music director, worship leader and worship pastor since October 2003 for two non-denominational churches. I (along with my wife Monica) have been involved in an ARC church plant from July 2014 through its launch in September 2014. The church was planted by Andrew and Shyla McLean. I was the music director, main worship leader and the closest person to Andrew in leadership (aside from Shyla). May 10th 2015 was my last service.
If you were to ask me on Friday May 8th what I would be doing on the morning of Sunday May 17th, I would have said happily," I'm leading worship and praising God at my Church, The LifeWay, would you like to join me?" If you would have asked me that same question the afternoon of Saturday May 9th…I would have been fighting back tears and quietly stating, "I don't know."
The LifeWay hasn't been perfect. In fact, sometimes it was a little awkward. Sometimes strange statements (to me and others) where made by Andrew and a few of the people. Later I realized these people all originated from Parkway which was a church Andrew and his family (as well as many of the Life Way congregation) grew up in. That church wa a member of the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International.)
Don't get me wrong, most of the people were very friendly and loving which was a huge reason why I took the position. Unfortunately that also made leaving Life Way a heart wrenching choice to make. Most of these friends will be deeply, deeply missed.
Huge concerns were starting to boil in my mind but Andrew is a very fast and distracting talker. Sometimes this made it very hard to “track” what he was actually saying. He speaks in ways that ask questions that purposefully lead you to the answer he is looking for, especially when someone calls him out on a statement. If that doesn't work he will change the topic.
Here are personal examples that caused me to begin to ask questions.
- First, I was concerned about baptizing in Jesus' name only. Andrew replied, “Nowhere in the Bible does it say to be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” My reply was a long drawn out, slow and confused, “whhaaaat?” Before I could even finish my breath Andrew quickly responded,“Well Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost,” then changed topic and drew me immediately into another conversation.
- Second, during baptisms I couldn't hear what Andrew was saying to the one being baptized just before he baptized members? He seemed nice and loud as he addressed the congregation, then whispered to the one being baptized “I baptize you in the name of Jesus.” I thought to myself, “Isn't this an outward expression of an inward change? Not very outward if the key words are uttered in secret.”
- Third, he said to me over the phone. “That's why I will never use the word Trinity, because it's not in the Bible.” For some reason this statement kept replaying in my mind. Ultimately, if you know nothing about the “oneness” doctrine you would have never put it together. If you're a Trinitarian like me, you would say “well yeah, that's not a literal word used in the Bible but that doesn't mean denial of One God: Three Persons.” But now knowing what Andrew believes, his background, the father he was trained and grew up with…it's a dark seed that sets up the “oneness” foundation in a church. (ED. Note: Here is a good resources to understand Oneness Pentacostalism.)
- Fourth, in a leadership meeting he stated “I don't even want to get into doctrine until we are a year in.” That statement didn't sit well because that defines who Life Way is. Andrew's answers would be a fast brilliant mix of truth and deception. Andrew's reason came under the guise of love, as to not “overwhelm people with such heavy topics” and steering the conversation into his stance on homosexuality. Heavy topic yes, but that's not what we were really discussing.
- Fifth, about a few weeks before this began to unfold Andrew gave a lengthy sermon about The Holy Spirit. It was all the Holy Spirit's attributes and work…then it ended. What about the person? I remember feeling a bit sick to my stomach and looking over to Monica saying “Something really doesn't feel right here.”
One of the concerned people who was continually sensing something “off” was Mary Martinez. Along with her husband Darrell and daughter Lucia they were people I personally asked to be a part of the LifeWay. They were seeking a church, they knew me, my recommendation meant something and I believed LifeWay to be safe. Mary is biblical, empathetic and rock solid in her walk. She was the Life Group Coordinator (only volunteer to have an @lifeway.org email address), a Life Group Host for Wed night Bible study and a Point person for Fellowship One church software who was in charge of learning the entire program so she could then train others in its use. She was also the Children’s Ministry Teacher, Nursery Volunteer and Development Team Member for the first official session after launch. She was knee deep in the LifeWay and just like me, in a position to see things the average person attending would not.
As I continue I would like you to read her story, from her lips as it leads right up to the week of May 6th –May 11th and my last conversation with Andrew.(Ed Note-Mary gave permission for this story to be shared.)
Mary Martinez recounts her observations
In the late summer of 2014, Doug Shea (my closest Christian brother and long-time friend) and his wife Monica, asked if my family would come help out the LifeWay church where they had committed to be volunteer Worship Leaders. He said that pastor Andrew McLean and his wife Shyla were in need of a lot of help to get their church off the ground. I put it in prayer and felt a call to go and help however I could. As I looked into the Life Way website(prior to its Launch on 9-21-14), I couldn’t find anything wrong with the explanation of beliefs since everything was pointed toward Jesus Christ.
In researching the ARC- Association of Related Churches planting organization (not the Reformation based Alliance of Renewal Churches) I saw lots of useful resources but didn’t find any doctrinal statement or statement of beliefs. I let it slide thinking that it was just a funding and support org that didn’t necessarily have its own official statement. With the initial surge of faith development and spiritual growth I had seen in my husband after his 2nd visit Ithought this was confirmation that we were in the right place.
On my 2nd or 3rd visit to The LifeWay Jim Marquez asked me if I had “gotten the Holy Ghost?” I replied “yes” and he said “Oh, so you speak in tongues then,” with a hopeful and somewhat excited tone in his voice. I replied “no, not in a language I don’t understand. The Bible tells me that not everyone will speak in tongues. If I ever had it, it has come out in words spoken to a friend that had deep spiritual meaning to them and there was no way of knowing that what I had said was so important to that person.” With that explanation he said “oh, ok” in a very casual way. A yellow flag was raised because I had worked with several people from an apostolic-pentecostal background in years past.
The following week we discovered that Jim and Darrell are actually cousins. We were elated that we had found family here in WI when everyone else was so far away. I thought to myself “what are the odds that we’d meet family members at this random church in West Allis, WI when they drive 40 miles from the south and we come from 5 miles to the north?” I was so grateful to God for bringing us together!
On 12-7-14 (Growth Track 101 class) the only thing remotely close to doctrine, other than mentioning Jesus Christ, was that Andrew said “You will never hear me use the word ‘Trinity’ because it is a made up word that is not used in the Bible.” There was no further discussion on the topic as we quickly rushed on to the next point. I remember having a little twinge of unsure-ness but then dismissed it as just another way to look at it. And since everything was about “Jesus” I felt that it was ultimately safe.
(I completed the other 2 classes of the growth track on 12-14-14 and 12-21-14. I now know that I was one of only 3 team members who was able to complete the growth track because everyone else was too busy with set-up/tear-down to even be able to participate).
After completing the signing the “membership covenant” we were invited to dinner with Andrew and Shyla at the Cheesecake Factory. The covenant was explained as a way to “protect the unity of the church, serve the ministry of it and support the testimony of it.” I now recant it entirely.
While at dinner I started asking if they knew some of the people I had worked with to see if there was a connection- they knew every single one. This began to raise a red flag for me but Andrew assured me that he was trying to break from the Parkway Pentecostal church.
Later, Andrew expanded on that thought at a Dream Team Development Meeting (Leadership Team).He became emphatic when the topic of life-giving vs. life-draining church life came up. He explained what he hated about his upbringing at Parkway. How he felt always condemned even though he was “one of the good kids” and how concerned he was about providing a welcoming place for his homosexual friends. He did not explain any further but he was clearly emotional to the point of almost crying and was adamant that his church would be life giving. I recall feeling like his rant came out of nowhere but something obviously struck a nerve. He was not disrespectful and didn’t say anything unbiblical so I took it as him just beginning to trust us as a group and share his heart. I also remember feeling very sad for him that night and put him up in prayer. After that night I began regularly asking him by text how I could pray for him.
Doug Shea
This is an interesting point because Andrew actually called me and complained about Mary asking daily how she could pray for him. Andrew made the comments “I'm a big boy” or “stop feeling sorry for me” as if Mary was patronizing him. I found it strange that our pastor would respond to this in that way…to prayer? But I pastored him though it and it was never spoken of again.
Mary Martinez continues
In the Development Team meetings I became increasingly unsettled by Andrew’s use of marketing books such as The Dip, Purple Cow and Up The Middle Church to develop the church’s brand.Everything seemed to be about developing a marketing strategy which made me feel more like I was part of launching a business than a church. On that same idea it bothered me week after week that Andrew would bait people into returning each week in the hopes of winning a drawing for a $25 gift card to area restaurants. I thought to myself that it felt like the money changers in the temple but then dismissed it because Andrew was giving something away and not selling anything.
Life Group Coordination: on several occasions Andrew made it clear to me that he did NOT want doctrine to be a topic of discussion at the small groups or Bible studies. He volunteered that the reason why was to avoid getting too deep for newer Christians. I didn’t disagree because of an experience I’d had in the past with 2 men who started an “I know more than you about theology” match at a seeker’sBible study I had coordinated at a previous church.
To this point nothing was bothersome enough to make me want to leave. Remember, it all seemed okay on the surface though I had wondered what he would preach if it were his own sermon since all of the sermons he gave were available at a free website. God gave me a heart to reach the lost, unchurched, poorly churched and those hurt by churches and I felt good about the LW’s focus on the lost and unchurched.
One Sunday in February 2015 my friend Paul asked if we could talk for a bit. He told me that he wasn’t sure if he should be re-baptized and he wasn’t sure if he had the Holy Spirit in his heart. He told me that Andrew and Jim had recommended he be re-baptized in the NAME OF JESUS to stop the spiritual battle he had been experiencing. And he was worried that since he hadn’t SPOKEN IN TONGUES he might not have the Holy Spirit.
This is when all warnings went off in my soul. I remember telling Paul very firmly that he should not doubt the legitimacy of his baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or be afraid for his salvation as long as he had faith in Jesus Christ. I also told him I knew he had the Holy Spirit because I had gotten to know his heart, I had heard him pray and saw his Christ like love for others and deep desire to know Christ more and more. I think I repeated all of it to him several times to make sure he understood.
Doug Shea
Personal example Six, I didn't hear about this from Paul till much later. I assured him of his salvation and I knew for a fact Holy Spirit was living in him! This conversation with Paul was very long and ingreat detail. At this point is when my list of concerns started to boil in my mind.
Back to Mary Martinez
In other areas I was beginning to see that Andrew was not a very genuine man in many ways. I had heard of him speaking to the worship team members in very hurtful and even degrading ways and began to see a less caring side about him each time I had meetings or personal interaction with him. He was clearly frustrated when people showed emotions and was irritated at having to deal with people’s emotions. It got to a point where I didn’t sense any peace, patience, joy or gentleness coming from him but I shrugged it off as stress and offered to help him with administrative duties to relieve some of that stress.
In reply to my offer for help he gave me the huge project of learning the entire church management software program within the 60 day window that the training would be available. I felt honored that he would let me help in such an important way and gladly worked through the online instruction, which was a major dedication of time. During my training time I would immediately set up the program for the church. Many times I tried by phone, text and email to ask vital questions about how he wanted to run things and I wouldn’t get any response which was another yellow flag.
Then came the meeting where I stated that I could no longer teach Children’s Ministry because my emotional special-needs daughter was not handling it well. I had taken the ministry over 7 weeks prior from a couple who had served for 5 months non-stop and were burned out and feeling isolated from the life of the church. Each Sunday my daughter, Lucia age 7, would get angry with other kids or cry in the classroom, hide in the corner and disrupt the lessons. There was no way I could handle it all by myself.
Andrew's reaction was the equivalent of a grown man’s temper tantrum in a reclining chair. He was more concerned about what he was going to do next than what my family was going through. He knew that we were taking our daughter to therapy twice a week and that we had gotten confirmation of brain developmental delay caused by her birth mother’s drug use during pregnancy. (Ed. Note- Thank you Mary for adopting this special needs child. You are a hero!) He knew we had been in a particularly rough spot since the unexpected death of our friend and neighbor- we had told him how loss of any kind was an immediate trigger for Lucia’s anxieties.
There was no genuine love shown in how he handled my resignation or my concerns about the meetings becoming more frustrating than good. I was quite disappointed and saddened by the way he spoke to me but I put it all in prayer.
Doug called me right after the meeting to ask if I was okay. He didn’t think I was shown any love or compassion in that situation and he knew I’d be hurt by it. I remember saying to him “I know God has us at this church for a reason. I just never guessed it would be to teach my pastor how to be a pastor and love people.”
Doug Shea comments
This was one of those moments for me that helped me to understand why I felt so awkward or detached in my relationship with Andrew. I began to understand why, when every time he made his daily rounds to tell everyone his tag line “we love and appreciate you," it felt so off. In my mind, he just didn't know how to love and maybe he never was loved? So again I pastored him through it and let him know he really dropped the ball. I said, “There was someone hurting, crying and exhausted and you chose worrying about the position instead of her pain and heart.” Andrew agreed. This conversation was quite long and one of the only conversations I was a part of where he did not do 90% of the talking.
Mary Martinez continues
Time came for the Bible Life Group that I had been hosting at my house to start its 2nd session. The Lord led me to ask Jim Marquez to lead us into the book of Acts. That is where it all really began to unravel. In the first official study of the session (5-6-15) we started right away hearing about spiritual gifts and how the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost. We learned that there was a difference between speaking foreign languages and “tongues”. This is where my spirit in me knew the truth of these beliefs would all come out.
We read verses about who God is and about the redeeming blood of Jesus. Jim then took us to Matthew 16:17-19 Jesus was speaking:
“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah!… I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you looseon earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Jim said, “Jesus gave him the keys. If the bible says it I can say it. If it doesn’t, I can’t.” Then after making it very clear that the book of Acts was very important to him because it was “where the church started”.
We then went to Matthew 26:28 which is about Jesus’ blood being shed for the remission of sins at the institution of the Lord’s Supper. He asked how do we apply that blood to our lives and how do we secure remission of sins? Jim got right to Acts 2: 38- And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” And again he said “If the bible says it, I can say it.”
But this time it was in a cop-out kind of way that I can’t really describe. I read between the lines to see that what he was saying without saying it is that baptism in Jesus’ name was the only way to be saved. Immediately after that, lively discussions began about Jesus’ own words in the great commission and being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I asked if there was something different about my baptism vs. baptism in the name of Jesus.
Tension seemed to fill everyone as Jim had us each searching for a different verse, some in the Old Testament and some in the New. Everything started to move so quickly and we were jumping all around the Bible. I immediately felt just like I did in Andrew’s Growth Track classes; the fast talking and numerous references to scripture. It started to become very confusing. I remember saying very firmly that “our God is not a God of confusion.”
Then my friend Paul said “But what about being saved by faith in Jesus?” Jim pointed us back to Peter’s words in Acts 2 and reminded us that Jesus gave him the keys. Then another participant said “Ok, Jim. Say Joe Schmo walks into the street and gets hit by a car. I run over to him and ask him if Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior. He says “no” so I witness to him and tell him about the love of Jesus and how faith in Him will forgive everything you’ve done wrong in your life.” He then asked Jim what he would do and Jim replied that he would tell the man that God is a just judge and he’d take care of him when he died. HUGE RED FLAG!!
Paul then began to recite many of the verses pertaining to being saved through faith in Jesus. Jim then hurried us along to the next point in the study from Acts 10:44-48 where Peter knew the people he was had they Holy Spirit because they were speaking in tongues. I again went back to the words “faith in Jesus” when Paul said “yup” and Jim immediately said “nope”. He hurried us back to the speaking in tongues topic where I brought up that scripture clearly states that not all will speak in tongues. More rushing and confusion was the answer. At some point in this heated and confusing mess Jim said something to the effect of “well I’m not saying anything is wrong with not speaking in tongues.” I recall at least 4 times when someone had a question come up and Jim would point this authoritarian finger at them with a brief stare while saying “we’ll get into that another time.”
It felt to me like I was a little kid in school that had just interrupted the teacher and caused some sort of disrespect. That little stare was just enough to say “don’t take this off track”. It came to the end of our time and Jim asked us to use anointing oil and pray over a baby blanket that they would send to Colorado. We all agreed that we would do that and I closed with a prayer calling for truth to be known because Jesus is Truth. Before we all left Jim’s wife pulled me and another woman aside and told us that she was so worried about him not feeling well lately and that he just hadn’t been himself completely. I felt like the baby blanket and worries for health were both attempts to distract and elicit empathy and concern to get our minds off what had all just happened.
Right away the next morning (5-7-15) I called Doug Shea and told him that I was finally beginning to uncover the unspoken and well-avoided doctrine of this church. At this point it could have just been Jim’s views but I urged him to talk with Andrew to get to the root of this. I knew Andrew wouldn’t talk to me since he had been so out of touch with me after I shared my concerns at the leadership meeting. I knew I was on the outs, if you will. At this point I was still of the school of thought that Andrew needed to address doctrine for those of us who come from backgrounds other than Pentecostal. I didn’t even know what "oneness" meant yet.
I urged him to get an official answer from Andrew about the sufficiency/insufficiency of baptism in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit and if he believed that speaking in tongues was a necessary sign of salvation. And if everything seemed alright with his doctrinal viewsthat we had to come up with a formal agreement so we could clear up all of this confusion.
Doug Shea joins the discussion
I was immediately concerned, it was finally a clear cut case of addressing Andrew. So that day, all day, and the next morning, I prayed for truth to reveal itself. God is so awesome. I had not talked with my former mentor and pastor Rev. Dr. Mike Kleven in sometime. Early Friday morning Mike called and I ask him for his toughts. I started by bringing up my concerns, the uncertainty of salvation, the superiority of Acts vs other books of the Bible, the superiority of Peter to the other Apostles, and Baptism is Jesus' name only.
This is the only time of over a decade of talking with Mike he has ever interrupted me and said “Whoa, whoa, whoa, what about the baptism?” I said it again and Mike told me he was seriously concerned. He told me about a Jesus movement and Oneness Pentecostalism. He gave me some sites to check out as well assome questions to ask Andrew.
So I went home, checked websites and looked into Parkway church where Andrew, Jim and others came from. My heart sank, Oneness Pentecostal. Parkway's belief statement about God. “There is only one God, who loves us without measure, and He reveals Himself to us as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration.” Now, to anyone who reads that and believes in the Trinity would obviously say “Well, yeah, that's the Trinity.”
Nope. This is a very well crafted statement.
The Oneness Pentecostals do not believe in the Trinity. They believe in one god who has revealed himself to us in many “masks” or “hats.” Jesus and the Holy Spirit being the final two revealed in the New Testament. One god many faces, modes, manifestations or offices. The “Jesus Only” movement. So I looked at Life Way's statement about God.
“There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man (Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16).” Look similar? Later I will get into the slight of hand use of these Bible verses. (She has a screen shot in case it gets changed online.)
I decided to text Andrew to set up a face to face. We both agreed to meet at 9 am Saturday May 9th. That morning I prayed as I drove and I arrived early. I sat in the car and begged God to reveal truth. Over and over praying for truth, I sent a few texts out for prayer.
The conversation was long about two hours and twenty minutes. I told the entire story Mary and Paul relayed to me. I stared with addressing the superiority of Peter, the book of Acts, and gifts of the spirit. And instead of getting what Andrew believed in, I got a long drawn out talk about Jim and where his heart is at. By the end of this topic, I was led to believe that everyone at the meeting just misunderstood what Jim way saying. It was all just a break down in communication according to Andrew. I felt Andrew did agree with me, in a round about way. But I never heard him say he agreed and that started to trouble me.
The next topic was salvation. Andrew told me “I come from a three step background, accept Jesus, be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”. Andrew then went on to say one of the most baffling explanations ever. “Who I am to say when you're saved? Who am I to say just because you received the gift of the Holy Spirit you are saved? How do I know you are really saved at any of the three points?” I thought to myself “well, you're the pastor of my church, who else is going to give people assurance?”
Then it hit me, that's the dodge, he uses a Biblical statement in the response, (a we shouldn't judge position), just so he doesn't have to give you a solid answer. With that one statement God revealed truth. My eyes where finally seeing who I was talking to. Andrew then proceeded to tell me how he has no seminary degree. However, he explained because of his church experiences and tutelage from his father, Gerald McLean, he felt he was qualified to lead this church.
My next question was worded quite differently and as it turn out, it was the key to this whole facade. “Do you Andrew, believe in one god who reveals himself in many faces over the Old Testament and reveals himself as the final three faces or titles Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament? (The Oneness Pentecostal doctrine)
Or do you believe in one God Father, Son and Holy Spirit…Three persons in One God? (The Trinitarian doctrine)
Andrew looked away from me and down, and said very reluctantly,
“I believe in one god who reveals himself in many faces over the Old Testament and reveals himself as the final three faces or titles Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the New Testament.”
He repeated it exactly. There it was. Finally truth. Andrew began to elaborate on it even, explaining all the different faces God has revealed to us. Upon shock and a loss for words I said “Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree.”
Almost immediately Andrew goes into a funny story about his father Gerald. Apparently back at Parkway they changed the Lyric to the Chris Tomlin song How Great is Our God. According to Andrew, Gerald took great offense to the lyric, “The God-head Three in One, Father, Spirit, Son.” So they changed the lyric at his old church to say “Jesus is the one, Father, Spirit, Son.” The funny part of the story to Andrew was on the week his father came to visit LifeWay, I picked that song to play. He thought that was funny, I felt more like a divine hand was at work dropping a lightning bolt of truth in my mind. He also said he contemplated asking me not to play the song.
He then started to lay the seeds for our next conversation by saying “I don't know what the big deal is? God is the Father, Spirit and Son.” Leaving out the key “Three in One” part followed by an intense mouth dropped and palm wide open look of “duhhh of course!?” (Setting me up for his next conversation that “we are saying the same thing.”)
After the Chris Tomlin story he began telling me, “he would never strong-arm me into his belief and asked if I would be interested in a book his father Gerald wrote that would explain his belief deeper.” Very subtle seed again.
On my drive home the ride got heavier and heavier. I kept replaying what Andrew said over and over again. When I got home I fell face on the ground crying asking God “tell me if I'm wrong, tell me if I'm wrong.” After a considerable amount of time and asking to be shown more truth, I felt it, a wash of release…I knew I had been released from LifeWay.
I wanted to handle this Biblically, so I made three calls. Dan & Lissy Taormina who were on the LifeWay leadership board, Rev. Dr. Mike Kleven and Mary Martinez. This was the “pastor” of LifeWay and I just realized how deceitful he has been to me and many others. I needed to make sure I handled this Biblically and had witnesses to every action I make. I was now seeing the true character ofAndrew.
First, I called Dan and Lissy Taormina. Dan and Lissy were both were on the core leadership team. They were in charge of youth outings, offering sometimes, weekly announcements, set up and teardown and they were both asked to reach out to young couples. Lissy was a floater when someone was missing with hospitality, ran children's check in and she sang on the worship team. Dan also did all the light operations.
Dan, Lissy, Monica and myself had become quite close so I knew Dan and Lissy's character (they wouldn't lie to me), I was confident if I was wrong they would tell me. I was not wrong. We agreed not to share this with anyone and to just pray together about it.
Lissy Taormina now tells her story
About one month before Dan (my husband) and I decided to leave the LifeWay, I was a part of the worship team. I noticed a few things that I didn’t like and notified the worship leader (Doug) that I had decided to step down as a singer. The reasons I stepped down had been because there were members of the worship team living questionable lifestyles and the pastor was okay with ignoring and not confronting the issues. He also seemed to value the worship more as a performance rather than an offering to God.
After he heard about my decision, Andrew immediately called me saying that I should have asked him before I made that decision and accused me of thinking I was “holier” then the rest of the team because of the concerns I had. He did not honor my decision and instead became very aggressive and manipulative. We talked for about one hour, which he spent trying to convince me that it was a bad decision because I was abandoning the team, and my motives were wrong. He consistently was accusing me of being judgmental and would always state he wanted to “err on the side of grace," rather than confront an issue.
At the end of that conversation I felt beat up emotionally. He literally spent one hour twisting my words and accusing me just because the team lost one of three singers. That was the first time I realized Andrew had manipulative tendencies and I did not want to be under a leader like that.
Doug Shea
I also called Rev. Dr. Mike Kleven (for council outside Life Way) who was in complete agreement with my concerns and my wish to leave LifeWay I decided to tell Andrew after Sunday's service that I was leaving Life Way. I also decided I was going to tell him I needed to inform all the people I shepherded into LifeWay why I have decided to leave. Once they had the information the choice would be theirs.
Late Saturday afternoon after even more prayer, I felt moved to call Mary Martinez and explain what happened. Not only do I trust her not to share this with anyone but she's the best researcher I know. I needed to if there was more of a connection to Andrew and the Oneness Pentecostal.
Mary Martinez
Doug and I spoke after he had met with Andrew and talked it all over with Pastor Kleven. That was the first I had ever heard of Oneness Pentecostalism and anti-Trinitarianism. I immediately began researching and it all fell into place. I came across Gregory Boyd’s articles on “Sharing Your Faith with a Oneness Pentecostal”. Everything that had been said about baptism, tongues, allusions to salvation and even an odd reference about Jesus having to leave so the Holy Spirit could come lined up with the religion profiles found on 4truth.net and gospeloutreach.com)
I thanked Doug for being the voice for many of us trying to come down to the truth. His heart was heavy as he felt it was his responsibility tolet our friends know what “he had asked us to be a part of.” I assured him that there was no way hecould have known until now and that I would stand with him in whatever consequences came down because I also stand for Truth…which is God’s Word…which is Jesus.
The Lord urged me to get in the Word and spend time in prayer and research. He poured scripture intome that brought it all closer and closer into focus. He sent me to my Luther’s Small Catechism to review the creeds after reading a mention of the 1st Council of Nicaea. Ithen found the reason Nicaea 1 even took place was because of the anti-Trinitarian teachings of Arius.In 1916, more then 160 pastors were removed from the Assembly of God because they fell for the craftiest use of scripture against scripture. This is a 1700 year old lie recycled into this 102 yr old Oneness movement.
As I learned about their twisted and limiting views of who God really is it became apparent to me that this was serious. By Saturday evening May 9th I knew that I had been completely deceived by this pastor and church elder for months. I had unknowingly been a part of Satan’s work. I’m still disgusted and devastated when I think of the depth of the lies and intentional omissions and avoidance’s.
Doug Shea
Sunday morning May 10th the heaviness of this truth hit me. Worship was hard, talking to Andrew was harder because up to this moment I believed Andrew to be an honest and transparent friend. All I focused on was my God during worship leading and humbly asking for forgiveness for helping build this lie. I couldn't hold back my tears of remorse and knowing what I had to do for my King.
Paul Rowlett was a guest guitar player, someone who played with me at my previous churches. He was on the hiring committee with Mike Kleven when I interviewed in 2003. He was also (alongside of Mike Kleven) my other spiritual mentor and close friend. After the worship I pulled Paul Rowlett aside and told him my concerns. He was very cut and dry, “you are doing the right thing.” This was Paul’s second time ever playing here, we haven't jammed together in two years. How awesome is God for bringing him here at this exact moment for encouragement!
During the sermon while Andrew was preaching, I started to cry uncontrollably. Life Way was my home, my friends, I helped build this and it was false. Thank goodness for Monica, she put her arms around me and pulled me tight. God certainly knew what he was doing when he brought her to me because she calmed my heart ever so gently. Then it was custom for Monica to go up for the last few minutes of the sermon and play piano during Andrew's closing thoughts. I didn't even look up, I clasped my hands together and just prayed to my Father that whole period while tears began streaming down my face.
The worship team was called up to do one last song. We played Bethel Worship's “No Longer Slaves.” All week the song has been planned, long before I even had an inkling about this being one of my last services. But every lyric started to speak to me, right to my heart and right from my God. I am sothankful that my last lyric I ever sang at Life Way was “I'm no longer a slave to fear, I am a child of God.”
After the service I was wrapping up chords and Andrew asked if he could pull me aside. As I walked backstage I kept praying “Dear Father this is it, please help me!” Andrew asked “Are you okay?” I said, “Actually Andrew I'm not.” Andrew replied, “Are you mad at me?” My eyes filling with tears, “No Andrew, I wouldn't call it mad, I just simply can't get beyond the fact that you do not believe in the Trinity. I can't be a part of LifeWay.” Andrew immediately grabbed me and hugged me and said, “Okay this is heavier then I thought, it's all going to be okay.” Then he let go and said "Let's talk later” then rushed off. It felt so weird, I thought to myself if I was a pastor of a church and someone came up to me obviously so broken, I know nothing could have torn me away.
I went back on the stage and thirty seconds later Andrew rushes up and says “Don't tell anyone until we talk first.” I said okay and he rushed off again.
Mary Martinez and I met for a few seconds. I asked her to get a list of all the emails of everyone I shepherded into Life Way together. “Do not tell anyone anything yet, I need to give Andrew one more opportunity. But if I give you the go ahead, schedule an emergency meeting as soon as you can. I want Mike Kleven and Paul Rowlett there as well.”
Andrew didn't call till early evening that Sunday. On my way to meet Andrew I text the few people who know what is happening to pray for the conversation. Paul Rowlett gave me some great advice, “He's going to want to get you into a theological debate. Don't engage with it. God has already told you what needs to be done. You know what is right, he has already admitted to his belief. Show him love.”
We meet at 7pm at Starbucks. After a little small talk, I then said “Andrew you don't believe what I believe, I have to go.” Andrew starts the theological debate. I'll admit my rebuttals were not strong or convicting, I just didn't want to have a debate. He'd ask hypothetical questions to draw me back in like “what do you believe you are going to see in heaven, one god or three?” I just kept praying “Holy Spirit give me your words,” over and over.
Then the conversation changed. It moved into “we are saying the same thing, we believe the same thing” argument. With me reiterating “No we are not, Andrew I don't even think we are praying to the same god.” Andrew said “How can you say that, I see you clearly have the Spirit in you, I have the Spirit in me. What's the problem?” I politely said “We don't believe in the same god, I have to leave and I have to tell at least all the people I shepherded into LifeWay the reason why.”
Andrew did not like that. He wanted me to just leave quietly. I said to him “What if the tables were turned? What if you were under me and you brought in a dozen people claiming this was a safe place and you found out I believed something completely false? Would you not at least want to inform them? Would you actually take off and not tell them your reasons for leaving an unhealthy environment? Just leave them to figure it out for themselves?” Andrew could give no argument.
Andrew then accused me that I would slant people to my own perspective. I said, “Man, you know me. You know who I am. I have never done that here and I would never do that to you, you're my friend. I am going to give them the reasons why I am leaving and leave the choice up to them. It's the right thing to do.”
“I'd rather you would just tell them you had a vision problem.” Andrew suggested. That got me a bit upset, “Andrew, I don't have a vision problem! I don't disagree with the color of your bulletins. I don't have a problem with using a click track during worship, the service structure or the lighting. I have aproblem with your doctrine!”
At this point I was so utterly exhausted on the sidesteps and half truths and now he was asking me to tell one. Andrew paused for a few seconds and said, “Look at all the good happening, why would God do that? You told me God brought you here, why would he do that?” That's when I laid my hand down on the table right in front of him and in a very gentle tone replied “For you. Andrew, God brought me here specifically for you. For this exact moment. Truth is on the table, right here, right now. I was brought here for you.”
Andrew was silent. He said nothing and just stared intensely in my eyes for 45-60 seconds. I couldn't even continue to look his direction it was so uncomfortable and strange. Trying to break a truly disturbing moment I just busted out “Ummm so what's on your mind?” Andrew snapped out of it and quickly said “So what does the future look like?” “
I replied I will help you for two weeks, enough time to get things together with a worship team. I love you man, we just don't believe the same thing.” He told me he would call me the next day, we shook hands and said goodbye.
I sent Mary Martinez a text. “Please set up the meeting.” I decided to call Dan and Lissy Taormina. I informed them exactly the way the conversation took place and told him I felt like I just got out of a spiritual war. I felt so spiritually beat up. So Dan and Lissy prayed for me, that was amazing because it all went away. I love our God.
Lissy Taormina
Our close friend Doug called us to ask for prayer because he confronted Andrew about some theological issues that had come up. He had found that Andrew/The LifeWay did not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine. Rather, Andrew/The LifeWay believed in what is called the oneness doctrine. We gave him advice and prayed for him over the phone. But hearing Doug’s theological concerns raised some questions/concerns of our own.
Mary Martinez
Andrew sent a text on Monday (5-11-15) morning telling me he’d need to get bible study materials back. I replied that I did want to get them back to him and that I had all of my Fellowship One training notes for him too. I told him I wanted to meet to discuss the differences in our beliefs and that I know this must be confusing.
I know it doesn’t make sense that he felt the Holy Spirit in me when I prayed with him even though I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit and had never spoken in tongues. I promised that if he didn’t want to meet I would send him a short explanation and some resources I found. I made good on that promise by way of a very loving email and have still not gotten any response.
I (with Doug's consent) put together a meeting with all the people he had asked to help the church, Paul Rowlett and Pastor Kleven which I hosted at my home on May 11th. The purpose was to inform our brothers and sisters in Christ that we had uncovered a deception, to let them know that we were leaving the church and why, to share the research I had done and to pray together.
Doug Shea
On the way to the 6:30 meeting Monday May 11th Andrew calls me. I was actually happy he called because all through the day in prayer I felt God tell me make sure Andrew knows why you are leaving and has one more opportunity. Andrew starts by telling me how instrumental I have been to Life Way and how it's success was greatly because of my dedication. Not really what I wanted to hear, that made my stomach upset. As always Andrew went on saying how “we love and appreciate you” and they would be happy to give a letter of recommendation.
Then he moved off that and said, “But we feel we need to make a clean break. You coming in and leading worship the next two weeks is only going to cause confusion.” I asked him if I could at least get my musical equipment at 7:30am during Life Way set up. Andrew said, “No I'd rather you not be there at all. (quickly shifting) But I know you have to do what you have to do, so when you talk with your people please at least challenge them to talk to me first.”
I thought to myself, so you want me to ask the group I shepherded in to challenge you, but you wouldn't even let me be around others at LifeWay in case they wanted to challenge me? Crazy. He did go on to tell me he was going to call the members of the worship team to ask them to stay. I said no problem.
So I just went for it, “Andrew just to be clear, according to you, we are saying the same thing. So if we are, change the website to say One God: Three Persons…and I'll stay.” Andrew said "No." That was the last conversation with Andrew McLean.
Immediately I called Dan and Lissy Taormina to inform and keep a record of that conversation. In the middle of our conversation Andrew was already calling them. Here is the character of Lissy and Dan. Lissy said “Doug I know you have had your conversations with Andrew and you have made up you mind. Would you mind if we just called Andrew and asked him some questions of our own? Would that be okay or would that be hurtful?” I was so touched by how considerate that was, “Absolutely, I wouldn't want it any other way” I said.
(Now on a funny note, on my side of the phone Mary Martinez was calling like crazy. I was saying to myself “Hold your horses lady I'm five minutes away and I'm not even late ha ha.")
When I got to the meeting Mary was calling because when Paul Rowlett pulled up he was driving the same car as Jim Marquez, she thought Jim was making a surprise appearance to the meeting. At the meeting everyone I shepherded in was there, along with two people from Life Way I didn't invite, someone else did. I was at first a bit disappointed, but then I realized they were perfect witnesses to the whole meeting. We opened in prayer and I started talking first. This was a meeting to only inform. That's all it was. I told them why I was leaving, laid out all the details of the entire storyand told them it was ultimately their choice. Mary gave the details of the research she did and the parts of her story. Rev. Dr. Mike Kleven answered questions.
One part of the evening was very eye-opening it was a moment when we all realized what we were dealing with here. When Mary thought Jim Marquez was dropping a surprise visit, she called Mike too. Mike Kleven said he didn't have a lot of time to think about what he would say if Jim Marquez was at the meeting. Mike stated, “I would have said, Jim I'm going to give you the opportunity to confess your sins right now because what you are teaching is a Heresy.” In over ten years, hundreds of sermons, countless meeting and talks, I have never heard Mike ever use that word. This was not a church division, we didn't disagree on pews vs seats, hymns vs rock songs or the color of the carpet.
This was the church extracting itself and making a stand for the church. That was it. I laid out all the facts…and I did tell them about Andrew's challenge to call him.
Mid meeting I did get a text from Lissy Taormina to both myself and Monica. “We have left Life Way.” After the meeting I did call them to see how things went and how they were doing.
Lissy Taormina
Before we could schedule a meeting with Andrew, he called us. He called us to say that Doug was leaving because of a “semantics” issue and Andrew was so upset with Doug because he wanted to tell the people he brought into the church. When in reality Doug was leaving because of a deep theological issue that was unbiblical and anything but a “semantics issue.”
We informed him that we were aware of the issue and that we had concerns as well. We wanted to make sure that we heard it from Andrew, rather than anyone else. Andrew became upset that Doug had told us but welcomed the questions. So we literally googled “Oneness Doctrine” and asked questions off of the information website. We asked these questions,
- “Do you believe salvation is attained through he process of sinner’s prayer, baptism, and speaking in tongues?"
- "Do you believe a triune God, Three in One, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?”
He twisted the question which could have been confusing but luckily my husband and I are familiar with bible verses that back up our beliefs. Many times when we posed direct questions to him, he would give an elaborate explanation that would side on the oneness beliefs but then would finish with “But who am I to say how and when someone is saved, I’m not Jesus.” After we continued posing the questions and continued searching for a direct answer to our questions, he answered directly. He did not believe in the same thing we believed, which is the Trinitarian doctrine and Salvation by Grace through faith and not of works. (Ephesians 5)
As leaders in this church we realized that we could not represent something that we believe could lead people astray. On that same call we informed him that we completely disagreed and we would have to leave the church. He became very upset and aggressive. He even made the comment that this issue came up because a small group decided to study the book of Acts and he did not want or approve that. He then began accusing us of gossiping with Doug because first we asked the same questions Doug asked and second because he felt Doug coming to us (his close friends) asking for prayer on this subject is wrong. His reaction alone proved to us that we had to leave.
We had been honest about our beliefs and expectations before we committed to this church but he was very gray and vague often choosing to be a passive church than offend people. We felt deceived that it took us being there for seven months to stumble upon the truth. We informed him that we would stay for one more week to fulfill our duties of hosting a youth night and my husband working the lights on Sunday service.
He asked us not to come back and not to talk to anyone. Which made us very sad considering we made a lot of friends there. He said we could stay friends with people but “if we loved him at all” we wouldn’t tell anyone why we left. To which my husband responded that we will continue our friendships with the people of the church we had grown close to.
Mary Martinez
When it came time to cancel the Acts Bible Study and let group members know that we were leaving the church I learned the depth of training people from the Parkway background have. I called my “friend” with whom I had shared many conversations, tears and hugs with. We had both experienced many of the same hurts in our families and immediately bonded in support for one another. For that fact I was thrilled to welcome her into my home and have her in the Bible study so she was naturally the first person I called. I knew she had come from Parkway and that I had to listen carefully to what she said next.
My words were… “Hi (Jill) its Mary. I wanted to let you know that we are canceling the bible study tomorrow. We won’t be able to host it any longer and we were very sad to be leaving LW.” She said that she had heard something was going on and asked why we were leaving. I replied that “We found out that we have ultimately very different beliefs about who God is and what God’s plan for salvation was. I assured her that I do not believe in 3 gods but One Triune God that humans can’t fully understand.”
Again I heard that we really just believe the same thing and it’s just a misunderstanding. I maintained that it was not the same thing and that this had all happened once before mentioning Arius and the Council of Nicaea. She immediately became defensive and said that the Catholic Church and Constantine perverted the scripture and tried to control what people believed. I knew that the Roman Catholic church did not have it’s true beginning until several centuries later and because of that I told her I was not going to argue theology with her.
I emphasized how much I hated this all having to happen and that I felt deceived. She said “Well I know that Andrew was trying really hard to not offend any Trinitarians.” I was tearful when I told her that this was not a decision I was taking lightly and that my husband (Darrell) had said it best that we have to have faith like a little child. I told her how much I loved and cared for her and that no matter what anyone might say about me that Ifelt she knew my heart. I urged her to pray and ask God that if there was any truth to what I was saying that He would make it known to her and stated that I was praying for truth, too.
She said that she knew I had Jesus in my life to which I replied that I know it didn’t make sense because I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son,& Holy Spirit and I assured her I had never spoken in tongues yet I know I have the Holy Spirit in me. At the point I had asked her to pray she stopped trying to defend and finally just listened. She then said that she would miss me, too and was very sad to see us leave. We agreed that we had a deep love for each other as sisters and I suggested we keep one another in prayer and ended the conversation.
I learned that she was thoroughly prepared to meet even historical facts with the OP version of the truth and that there was something in the words “we believe the same thing.” She was ready for debate andthe only thing that shut it down was the urge to pray and ask God for Truth. I didn’t try to convert her… I was honest in my emotional expression and just tried to get her to see why I had to leave. I sobbed and repented of being a part of this lie as the reality of her beliefs came rushing into my heart and mind. It was horrible.
Lissy Taormina
About three days later I called a friend from church to make sure she knew that the youth event was canceled and she informed me that Andrew had called her. He told her that we left because we believed the rumors that were being spread about him. An obvious lie. I know that I haven’t done anything wrong, that is why I have been completely honest with people.
Why would he lie and tell people that things are happening behind his back when those people have told him to his face what they would do? It concerns me greatly what has happened to us, because of the impact it could have on some of the newer believers out there. There are many churches that are being deceitful to their members under the guise of non-denominationalism and sadly, this was one.
Thankfully the Lord made us aware of this and we were able to get away from it. But our heart breaks for people who are in these types of churches and do not know the truth.
Doug Shea
Since the meeting I have heard many unbelievable things being said about my actions and character as well as about others who made the choice to leave. I was so disappointed. Very hurtful. After I heard all the horrible things Andrew was saying about me, I was bothered. But in prayer, I was nudged to send him a text.
It said, “I feel very hurt by the way you have painted me to people. I clearly remember our conversations and I was very Biblical on how I handled it. Honest and up front on everything. Regardless, I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, I forgive you. I will make this very easy for you because I genuinely love you. Give my equipment to anyone who can get it to me, no rush.” No reply. (The cool thing about us both having IPhones, you know it was delivered.)
Agree with me or not, here are the facts that link the LifeWay to the Oneness Pentecostals.
- 1 ) Andrew does not believe in and has rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. He believes in one god who reveals himself in many faces over the old testament and reveals himself as the final three faces or titles Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the New Testament
- 2) Andrew and Life Way baptizes in the name of Jesus only.
- 3) Andrew and Gerald McLean, as well as Jim Marquez all come from Parkway church in Oak Creek, WI. This is a oneness Pentecostal church.
- 4) Parkway belongs to a hierarchy oneness Pentecostal group, United Pentecostal Church International(UPCI) 500,000 (1.5 Million World Wide)
- 5) Andrew placed Jim Marquez in a “teaching” position under a Bible study small group.(refusing others)
- 6) Gerald McLean was on the platform at Life Way giving a mini-sermon with communion.
- 7) Gerald McLean in his book “The Others” chapter 22 is entitled “Oneness Seminars.” Gerald explains the oneness seminars' success; how he is re-baptizing ministers in Jesus' name only. Page 162 “Over two thousand Trinitarian pastors and church leaders have been baptized in Jesus' name over the last twelve years. In this way, we began to not only win pastors, but entire congregations.”
- 8) Appendix 1 Page 184 of “The Others” gives a Twelve Step Oneness Seminar Protocol. Step 4 Promotions. (Bullet Point One) Give a free book: David Bernard's Oneness of God, David Huston's The Light of the Pentecost, and Gerald McLean's, judgment against the gods. (Bullet Point Two) The seminar should be billed as a non-denominational seminar for ministers and church leaders. The theme of the seminar will vary by personal preference, but to avoid resistance to the seminar, no reference should be made to the oneness doctrine in the promotional materials.
- 9) Appendix 1 Page 185 of “The Others” gives a Twelve Step Oneness Seminar Protocol. Step 7 Teaching. An introduction to the Godhead Q & A: Inform the participants that you will allow one question per person and not allow them to express opinions about the Godhead or any other topic.
- 10) Appendix 2 Page 189 of “The Others” God is absolutely and indivisibly one according to the Bible. (42 scripture passages are listed)
- 11) The Life Way web site statement “what we believe – about God” passages used Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16. Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6 are listed in Appendix 2 Page 189 & 193 (The Others). However, all four are found in the first two chapters of David Bernard's book Oneness of God.
- 12) Andrew has no seminary school. Andrew feels he is qualified to lead this church because of Gerald (his father) teaching him and Andrew's church life experience.
One final story
Before I wrap this up I wanted to give you another story. Brad Browne was a volunteer from the very beginning. One day Brad was just…gone? Andrew told us Brad left for family reasons and he wasn't getting fed from the messages, plus “for other reasons he (Andrew) wasn't going to get into.” Of course, I just took his word on it. God recently moved on my heart to Brad's side of the story. I never had real huge interaction with Brad and he wasn't apart of our “end-story” so I placed his story at the end of the report.
Brad Browne/the ARC
I reached out to the new pastor (Andrew) at this LifeWay plant and we scheduled time to meet at a local Starbucks. I also spent some time researching the ARC and had some concerns, but kept an open mind since I felt God was calling me to meet with this group. We met, I didn't get a hard pitch for money and felt that I could help here where they needed me and then perhaps move in to a role where I could help teach some classes. He talked about him and his wife's past serving in prior churches in some denominations and churches with some major theological differences from my own, but the point was made to me they were breaking with that and moving forward in a mainline fashion.
I met wonderful people who had a heart for serving and helping, and the more I talked with the pastor, the more I heard about this break with old school tradition, a break with what his family had taught him. What did create a question mark was even as I was hearing this, I was seeing that the church plant was "already sponsoring mission work in Africa", the pastor's parent's mission group and a group that was anti-trinitarian and held some views that probably were past the line towards heresy.
I had some concerns in how the ARC church plant system works. The MBA in me saw this as a well organized machine to build businesses, a "Business in a Box" approach. It seemed that ARC had all the materials, sermon notes, etc. all ready for folks. It looked like an organization that was not trying to plant thousands of churches, but plant 1000s of money-making businesses like Surratt and Hodges have built. Anyone who has any sort of theology that remotely resembles some form of Christianity may apply, and if you jump thought enough hoops you can have a mega church and roll in the dough likeRobert Morris, and theology and background doesn't matter. Scripture seemed to be a tool rather than the center. I felt the model really focused on business model concepts vs. scriptural ones.
The more I read (and some of it on the WW), the more I realized it was time to go. I felt God had called me to see and experience a seedier side of Christianity but I needed to disengage to ensure my kids were not sent down the wrong theological path. I also saw the pastor's parents were returning, the same parents I was told he was trying to disengage from theologically (but the church was supporting).
I prayed for them, but they were on a path that was seriously off any theologically correct path. I've heard before that "God will supply the breadth of your ministry if you focus on the depth of yours". I felt that the ministry here at LifeWay was shallow and thus was going to struggle to grow. I didn't want to make a big deal of it, but also felt it was time to engage more as a family somewhere and it was not going to be at LifeWay, so I met with the pastor at Starbucks to "check out". He understood, and we did have a discussion about his Unitarian views and felt Jim Marquez on the launch team that had pastored in the past and would teach more in line with the pastor's views would be the teacher. We parted amicably. I was surprised when there was a gathering of the launch team and I wasn't notified even with my past work, but after putting things together I realized he probably didn’t want me to have any discussion with folks around my difference of views.
I kept in touch with some folks through social media until I got contacted by Doug and heard some very non-scriptural things the pastor had been doing. It's plainly clear that the pastor is following his father's "book" in building churches and indoctrinating folks in to a heretical belief system using somepretty shady means. Why not be honest with your staff and church about your beliefs and trust God to provide? If one truly believes I don't see how there is any other choice. Choosing any other option here really is an indication in a false faith, a partial faith, or a lack of faith or trust in the Lord. Scripture doesn't team subversive behavior as a means of discipling others.
Although, I run some risk here of sounding judgmental around some areas of theology where I've done my share of study and believe that scripture and scholarly study has proven one path true over another. There are many areas where I believe that we can hyper-focus on details that don’t impact one's need to commit themselves to Christ. But, there are some theological areas (trinity, etc) where I think there is pretty firm scriptural proof one way or another if one doesn't warp the intent of the Word.
When I met with Andrew for the first time, I had told him my story. For the sake of time and space, the summary is that over the prior two years and through real mentorship with a pastor who I sat under as well as prayer, I knew that God was calling me to lead. Whether that be to teach or preach, God had not made it clear to me yet, but I knew he wanted me to earn and was chiseling me. If you haven't seen the Skit Guy's Chisel skit, here's the link. It describes what God was doing in my family and me.
I let Andrew know that my talents and gifts were around teaching and mentoring and communication, but I wanted to help wherever that God led me and where he needed me. That meant really just setting up every Sunday and meeting and talking with folks out in the lobby area of the school before services.
When I met with Andrew the last time around me leaving, we talked about my want for teaching, and he said very explicitly that he felt more comfortable with Jim Marquez teaching since he knew Jim's theology matched his own. That led us more in to a discussion around areas of difference, one being the trinity and the other around how I lean towards cessationism vs. continuationism when it comes to thegifts like tongues and healing that occurred in scripture. It was amicable.
I knew what sort of environment the ARC was, I compared it to the unhealthy and greed-driven environments like Mars Hill. I'll digress since this plays at bit in to my thoughts on ARC. Personally it seems that when you look at scripture or society in the past or now, our sins in many cases center around greed. Greed for money, for stuff, for attention, for power, for affiliation with a group, for sex or lust, for many things. If we are put in positions where the greed pull is strong I'm not sure anyone can really not succumb to it unless they totally have Christ centered in their life.
Seeing and reading around Mars Hill, the prosperity Gospel churches, any mega church, one can see where perhaps Greed is creeping in (or has crept in) and really supplanted itself as an idol over Christ our Lord. The ARC seems to have let Greed in and allowed it to supplant itself. These large churches come out with shallow sermons that may not be fuller seeker-oriented in terms of trying to pull folks in at the expense of the message, but they are borderline.
They also are built from a business perspective like any good business would, that wants to build money over the long term. Loaning out to church plants who then pay in to loaning out to other plants–Seems a bit like a pyramid scheme and not a true Church Group that pools together resources to spread the Gospel. I've listened to Hodges and Robert Morris at Gateway Church and heard the heretical Prosperity message clearly.
Morris is the man who is now mentoring Mark Driscoll and indoctrinating him in the prosperity message. Mark wasn’t' kicked out of Mars Hill, he quit when he was being set up for discipline and restoration. He created a terrible environment for people (a misogynistic and untenable one for many) and has yet to take responsibility for it. We should always be forgiving of others but there is something unhealthy going on there, I haven't had time or honestly interest to dig too deep but I know TWW and others are on it.
The ARC obviously isn't looking at theology as a precursor in terms of who they are sending out to plant. Modalism and Oneness are heretical Unitarian theologies but that hasn’t' stopped them from allowing someone who believes that to plant here in Milwaukee. Nothing about that is on the website but verbally we hear how the church is sponsoring the pastor's parents, who do believe that and who are actively teaching it in Africa.
Mary Martinez
I had experienced some spiritual bullying, and was taking time let God guide me. He guided me to a church plant that was going to kick off right in my back yard. I've had a real heart for the area since I live here and there are a lot of buildings in the area calling themselves "churches" but feel that there were so many that had not heard the Gospel.
I pray that somehow this story will help tear down this heresy and any church that preaches it; that it can somehow help the weak of faith and vulnerable among us. I’m quite sure that I didn’t leave any majorly important details out but, if anything else comes to me I’ll make sure to write it down. And, as I stated at the beginning, I will always make myself available to answer any questions about my experience. It is the least I can do in faithful service to the Kingdom of the One True God, the God in 3 Persons-Yet One, Blessed Trinity!!
Doug Shea
The Life Way is a oneness false religion trying to masquerade itself as a non-denominational Christian church. Just because it has stripped itself of the highly legalistic approach doesn't change the core values and doctrines. Which quite frankly are far more damaging then anything else. The world needs to know about this oneness Jesus movement. It is designed to cloak itself in Jesus then brings you totheir false Jesus. This is not a denomination of the Christian faith. It's not like a Catholic or Lutheran saying to one another “well they are the black sheep of the family.” The oneness movement is a wolf in sheep's clothing, they are not apart of the family. In fact, they aim to destroy it. Trinitarians are their mission field. My truth after stumbling on this false teaching is…if we don't stand up and make people aware, we then are just as guilty. This is the only reason for this report the only reason we left LifeWay.
As far as ARC. They either know about this and don't care. Know about this and do not understand the core teachings of the oneness doctrine. Or (even scarier) ARC is purposefully a part of the oneness agenda. There is no in-between. This is dangerous, ARC has many oneness doctrine churches. ARC needs to have accountability for it's actions. Oneness churches need to be identified and removed. They are a contagious cancer in the body of Christ.
Doug Shea-A muscian whois looking for a worship pastor position
On a side note, if anyone reading this knows of a Trinitarian church looking for a strong worship pastor. My wife and I would be willing to relocate. We want to do nothing with our life but lead people into the presence of the Father. Please feel free to contact me for a resume. Doug@DougShea.com
Here is a link to an original song I wrote and performed on a Christian TV Show in Dallas TX. The album will be out August/September 2015.
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Wow my son is considering a worship position with an Arc church in the midwest.
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Okay, I have two things to say about this, but I’m going to split them into two posts, so that the factual stuff I have to present doesn’t get tangled up with my opinion.
The LifeWay is not the only church planted by ARC which has “oneness”/UPC/Apostolic DNA. There’s one going up in my backyard in September, called “The Encounter Church.” It’s being pastored by Mark Segraves, who used to teach at the UPC’s Christian Life College in Stockton, CA. His father is Daniel Segraves, one of the UPC’s top theologians, who is retired from CLC and now living in Missouri. Sometime around 2008, Mark Segraves turned in his UPC preaching license. He then spent six years at LifeSong Church in Stockton. A careful parsing of LifeSong’s beliefs (not easily found) indicates they’re likely Oneness.
And yes, it looks like it’s a method for founding a business, not a church. Just My Personal Opinion.
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I have recently begun questioning by daily habit of eating at McDonalds. The food hasn’t tasted good for years. A bunch of my friends say the same thing. (What’s in that secret sauce, anyway?) Also, the staff gets impatient when I try to discuss these things with them. I stuck it out for a few more years, but finally put my foot down and announced my departure. I’m sure going to miss all those cartoon characters, but I feel in my heart that human beings were meant for some other kind of diet.
PS. Hey, all these years I thought I was eating at McDonalds, when it was really a Burger King the whole time!
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mirele wrote:
CLC as in Covenant Life Church SGM?
This whole Oneness thing is not something I’m familiar with except for the Elephant Room fiasco with T.D. Jakes being welcomed by Driscoll and James MacDonald. I wonder if there is any doctrinal connection between Oneness Pentecostalism and Prosperity theology, or is it just that they sprung up together?
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Apologies if I missed this, but is Robert Morris also a modalist? Or is the ARC a big tent that exists merely to franchise the brand and orthodoxy is optional?
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@ Kevin:
Make sure you have him read our posts about the ARC very, very carefully so he know what he is getting into.
They are really big into demons. Robert Morris believes that Paul (yep-that Paul) was afflicted with demons.
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@ Zla’od:
🙂
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Now for my comment, which will truly mark me as Outside the Household of Faith.
Let me start with a kind of a joke.
Jesus was asking his disciples who people were saying he was. And he got the answers, “John the Baptist, Elijah, one of the prophets.” Then Jesus turned to them and said, “Who do you think I am?”
Peter blurted out: “You are God from God, light from light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through you all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, you came down from heaven, was incarnate through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. You will be crucified for us under Pontius Pilate and on the third day you will be raised again. You will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and your kingdom will have no end.”
Jesus looked at Peter and said, “What? I was just looking for ‘You are the Messiah.'”
My point is that the earliest Christians probably knew nothing more than God as Father and Jesus crucified and raised from the dead. The first few generations of Christ-followers had died and passed from living memory when an insuperable problem came up that had to be solved. And that problem was a conflict between what Christians called monotheism and Jews saw as tritheism. The word “Trinity” was, in fact, likely coined by the Latin church father / heretic* Tertullian in the late second century in an attempt to solve this problem. But, as we know from history, it didn’t solve the problem. In fact, the problem keeps popping up, as we’ve seen with some current conservative Protestant theologians who are so desperate to save complementarianism that they’ve come up with an Arianism-lite called “Eternal Subordination of the Son.”
My belief is no human being can get and hold the right idea of God in his/her head EVER. The creeds are a poor attempt to shove God into a box and to number and count him. And they’ve caused no end of headache since the day reed pen was first put to papyrus to record the words of the Council of Nicaea. And then Nicaea-Constantinople. And then the filioque (“who proceeds from the Father *and the Son*).
In my opinion, Trinitarianism is problematic as a core doctrine. It is not “Jesus Christ and him crucified.” I can understand bailing from The LifeWay if one was misled into believing the church was orthodox in doctrine. And I definitely believe there was some sleight of hand and avoiding of hard questions here. That said, *my* problem with The Lifeway, beyond the fact that they were obscuring their oneness beliefs, is that it’s not a church, it’s a business. That’s where I have the problem. If they’d been open about their oneness beliefs, the church plant would still be problematic because it looks for all the world like a business with a 501(c)3 tax exemption. Kind of like Scientology.
Best, your friend sitting on the park bench Outside the Household of Faith, waiting for Godot.
====================
(Just as a side note, I’d also point out that the creeds were all written by men, presumably with no input from women. God, who is supposed to be beyond categories, is described as male: He, Him, His, Lord. As a woman, I feel the creeds make me Other because I am a woman. And we know this is an issue because if you even begin to talk about describing God in female terms, conservative Protestant theologians come unglued and start yelling about paganism run rampant. Yes, I feel excluded in a way men probably can’t comprehend because they’ve never though about it.)
*Tertullian’s heresy was apparently that of following Montanism and the “New Prophecy” late in life but his works were so valuable they were preserved. There’s been a game on for the last 16 centuries where scholars have tried to figure out which of Tertullian’s writings were from his orthodox period and which are from his Montanist period.
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Gram3 wrote:
Due to this post, I am going to go cack and read the ARC stuff very,very carefully. There are some ties to Pentecostals. Now, not all Pentecostals are modalists but I am becoming a bit suspicious here.
Note how Andrew kept backing away for the question. I m hoping that some of the other exARC people who read here will weigh in on this.
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Gram3 wrote:
Christian Life College in Stockton, California.
I think it’s the Pentecostalism, myself.
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@ mirele:
OK, thanks for that. Like with Scientology, I don’t have any experience with this particular group, so it’s hard for me to follow along. But it certainly looks to me like this is an entrepreneurial venture. And I agree that it is difficult to understand “three in one,” and that’s why I like the Wesley quote at the top of the post. However, I am toast because I am a human who does not comprehend the worm. Though I sure love them in my garden and Gramp3 loves them on a hook.
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@ dee:
dee, I love the work you folks do on this website. I have never posted a response before. In regards to Pentecostals, most of them are Trinitarian, like the Assemblies of God. As pointed out in the post, the AG kicked out a bunch of oneness people early in their history. As it has been pointed out, oneness is a heresy that robs the working of God’s grace and should not be accepted as sound doctrine. My background is in the AG, not a minister.
Please keep up the great work, you are doing a great job.
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I think the Trinity doctrine is very important. I feel it’s actually the best way to describe how God can “be” love. To experience love there needs to be a relationship. You or I can not give or receive love without another person to give it to or receive it from. Now to actually “be” love there would have to “be” relationship. Just as one can not experience love by their lonesome. God can not “be” love without being in a perfect relationship internally. 1 John 4:8 God IS love.
God wants to be the center of every relationship we have. Husband to wife, father to son, friend to friend. Like three sides of a triangle with God on top. The closer the two of you get to God the smaller the triangle becomes and the closer your relationship becomes. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so close there just happens to not be a triangle anymore. And because He is God and IS love, He will be the only example of this relationship.
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dee wrote:
Something I’ve seen from Pentecostal denominations is a distinct desire to describe themselves as Trinitarian in their beliefs: The AoG and Fourquare go out of their way — likely due to the old controversies with the Oneness groups.
And FWIW, Morris’s Gateway Church is quite explicit in its Trinity language.
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My former cult broke away from the UPCI, but still maintained many Oneness beliefs. Personally, I didn’t have an issue with the Oneness doctrines per se. What I do take issue with is the attitude among some of these believers that other Christians who believe in the Trinity are not saved.
When my Southern Baptist grandfather passed away over 20 years ago, I returned from his funeral to have my minister tell me he didn’t make it to heaven. He wasn’t baptized in Jesus’ name and didn’t speak in tongues. I was shocked and hurt. I didn’t buy it for one second! But, I had no choice except to bite my tongue. Had I disagreed, my minister would call my salvation into question.
I know many wonderful brothers and sisters who believe in Oneness. They are generous, kind, and loving. But some can be so arrogant and judgemental like you wouldn’t believe.
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@ mirele:
Well, you left out the Christological controversies, which were ver ugly and have not bern settled to this day. (Btw, while i don’t have a problem with this part of the Creed per se, you make some very good points.)
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@ mirele:
Great comment! I know nozink (Sgt Schultz) about “oneness” doctrine or ARC or anything like it. But I do understand the points and questions in your comment. This is one of those things people simply do not question for obvious reasons.
I can remember reading the OT and wondering “who” the “Lord of Host Army’s” was in the context of how we see the Trinity.
At some point in time it became impossible to question or discuss how we arrived where we are in our thinking on this subject. I have often wondered if it might not be helpful for Christians to learn the Shema. :o)
And I have often wondered the connection between prosperity gospel and the oneness guys or if that is just the way it played out?
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“The Life Way is a oneness false religion trying to masquerade itself as a non-denominational Christian church.
It seems that this is the real deception here. People should know up front what a church’s beliefs are before joining. The church has a responsibility to make its position known, or it’s being dishonest.
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numo wrote:
I just wanted to write a post, not a book! 🙂
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@ mirele:
Good point! 😀
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I do pray for all who are leading there and worshiping there. I pray they do not follow paths away from Christ and can rectify issues around honesty and openness. We must spread the Gospel in a bold yet gentle way. So many Christians focus on secondary details and not focus on the truth of the Gospel.
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mirele wrote:
From LifeSong’s “What We Believe”:
“There is one God; infinite in power, holy in nature, and personal in His love for mankind. Through the grand story of redemption, He has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
“Tithes and offerings are an expression of heartfelt worship”
“As we respond in faith, grace enables us to repent (turning toward God as we confess and forsake our sin), be baptized into Jesus Christ, and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial sign of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the ability.”
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Regardless of the doctrinal issues involved (and I would fall firmly in the Trinitarian camp, myself) the idea of not fully informing the congregation of one’s true beliefs is dishonest, deceptive, and cannot in any way stem from the one who is The Truth. It’s a practice that is right at home with the ol’ father of lies.
Unfortunately, this is the same thing that is happening in Southern Baptist congregations, who are beset by Calvinist pastors that hide their theology in order to take over churches.
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I had no idea Southeastern Wisconsin has gotten to this level of weirdness so far as fundagelicalism goes. When I was a kid, before the world had moved on (as Stephen King would say), there was just Catholics, Jews, and Lutherans. You went to church, took communion, observed Shabbat and that was that. Religion and real life were two separate spheres back then and in my opinion, the coping mechanisms for both were simpler.
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Doug Shea wrote:
This is a view of the topic I hadn’t thought of before, Doug. Thanks.
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Doctrine aside I couldn’t help but notice everything revolves around and passes through the pastor. Regardless of your views on the trinity, the pastor appears to be head of this LifeWay church and not Christ.
I also noticed the “accusing us of gossiping”, mix that in with deceit and you have some good ingredients for an abusive authoritarian regime. You don’t need to have bad doctrine to have cult characteristics this “church” appears to have both.
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mirele wrote:
Good joke, too bad it is too long to remember for retelling, I’ll just have to replace it with “Peter recited the nicene creed”. I’ll agree, we make things too complicated, Dee’s quote from John Wesley was a good setup to the story.
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Here’s my latest blog post. This is what my East Coast Mom Dee Parsons did right in how she engaged an agnostic. This also is analysis of the other 3 people who engaged me in my faith crisis.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/27/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-what-dee-parsons-james-crestwood-danny-risch-and-scott-van-sweringen-did-right-and-how-i-responded/
All I will say is that Bill Parsons married well! 😀
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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Eagle’s feathers are all ruffled up!?! 😯
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Why?!? He’s reading about his hometown of Milwaukee. The authors of the article should know that after graduating from Marquette I lived on 102 and Lincoln. I used to drive by Nathan Hale High School daily.
Eagle’s having a sentimental moment reading about Milwaukee
(THUMP! He’s out of it!)
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I would love to hear the authors take on the Milwaukee theological scene.
1. I helped plant a Crusade chapter at Marquette in 2000-2003
2. I also was involved in Elmbrook, there was a horrific child sex abuse situation that happened right before I showed up. It haunted the church. The Youth Pastor Daniel Vargas committed suicide in the W. Baraboo area. I wrote about this in a blog post.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/how-i-learned-evangelical-christianity-is-struggling-with-child-sex-abuse-an-incident-at-milwaukees-elmbrook-church-in-1999/
3. Also briefly went to Garfield Baptist which is today Spring Creek Church near Peawaukee. That church was very legalistic. I showed up in jeans everyone wore suits and I could feel the stares in the back of my head.
4. I became a member of Wooded Hills Bible Church near Germantown. Exit Hwy Q. I wrote a tribute to my Pastor there which is on my log.
5. I’ve known people in Eastbrook, The City, Oak Creek Assembly of God, and others. One of my friends Greg Marshall teaches at Westbrook. I love him and am grateful he’s a pastor.
6. Right when I was leaving for Washington, D.C. Epikos came on the scene. Last I heard they did a church plant in West Allis. Epikos I believe is affiliated with Acts 29 so its going to have issues like other Acts 29 churches. It still has Mark Drisocll’s DNA. I have heard Epikos is very fundamentalist. It like the ARC church has a membership covenant as well which is standard for all Acts 29 churches I believe. The pastor there I heard loved Wayne Grudhem.
So look at that CJ Mahaney’s corruption is tainting the east side of Milwaukee and West Allis. How lovely….
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Epikos came on the scene. Last I heard they did a church plant in West Allis. Epikos I believe is affiliated with Acts 29
Epikos is affiliated with http://www.convergegreatlakes.org/
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I am sorry that your minister said that to you! I had a similar thing happen where a man questioned where my grandpa ended up. Not because of a problem with his statement of faith, but because grandpa had been a member of the Free Masons. I don’t agree with Masonry, but I thought it was very tacky for someone to say this at grandpa’s calling hours before the funeral. Jesus is able to save “even” Free Masons from hell.
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@ Doug Shea:
” in a leadership meeting he stated “I don’t even want to get into doctrine until we are a year in.” That statement didn’t sit well because that defines who Life Way is.”
My pastor once said a similar thing to me when I asked about his doctrinal belief on something. He volunteered that he should be teaching it a lot more from the pulpit but that there are so many seekers and new believers that he didn’t want to overwhelm them. As time passed, I realized that the only time he went deep in teaching was when he preached about tithing. Yep….
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@Bilbo Skaggins:
In John 1:17 it says Grace AND Truth came through Jesus. There are plenty ways to be gentle, respectful and still teach truth.
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Bilbo Skaggins wrote:
I find that the concept of something being ‘tacky’ is underutilized. It is a great identifier of something that ought not be but which is itself not a federal crime.
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Bilbo Skaggins wrote:
When a person is that confused, that given over to utter crap theology that they would do something that reprehensible to you, to stick the knife in like that when you’re grieving, I wonder about THEIR salvation. A good stiff smack in the mouth would’ve been appropriate.
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@ Dee…I can’t thank you enough for posting our story here. I was a divine appointment that I came across TWW while researching ARC as a natural successor to my experience with oneness and The Life Way church. I’m currently visiting every one of the 450-ish ARC websites to see how many of them are oneness or questionable in their statements of faith. SO far the results are alarming to say the least! I will be in touch when I have finished my study.
Perhaps the most alarming thing to me is the culture of deception that is being uncovered in every aspect of this belief system!! Tricking people into a twisted version of the “kingdom” is just plain disgusting! And perhaps doing so in Nigeria, with the highest population and poverty rates in Africa, is even more disgusting!!
In the mean-time, if anyone wants more information on oneness, these are the most helpful sites I have found about it…
Mike Barden’s article on oneness with the most complete breakdown of its beliefs. A long read but crucial for anyone who really wants to know the depths of this deception. http://www.gospeloutreach.net/opgospel.html
Dr. Gregory A. Boyd shares his experience as a oneness believer and how he left the system. http://www.equip.org/article/sharing-your-faith-with-a-oneness-pentecostal-part-1/
(Bear in mind that the oneness camp of Steve Ritchie has come up with a rebuttal to every possible defense by the Trinitarian view against oneness. If you want to be creeped out look at his writings here: http://www.apostolicchristianfaith.com/ )
An eye-opening series about oneness, TD Jakes, Phillips-Craig& Dean and the shocking similarities between Gerald McLean’s oneness writings and those of Randy Phillip’s father in the ‘Enquirers Handbook’ (And I find it very interesting that both ‘judgment against the gods’ and ‘Enquirers Handbook’ have all but disappeared off the face of the earth. Granted, they probably did not have hue publishing runs but there seems to be a back-hole for UPCI and oneness material after oneness most recently came to the limelight in the early 2000’s)
http://vintage.aomin.org/PCD.html
http://vintage.aomin.org/PCD2.html
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Bilbo Skaggins wrote:
Man, if these guys cared as much about people’s souls….as they did the offering plate….
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@ Bilbo Skaggins
“Man, if these guys cared as much about people’s souls….as they did the offering plate….”
I’m so sorry you went through that. I truly can relate. Although, that doesn’t change my love for God and my deep desire to seek a safe place out to grow and be with His people. Thank you so much for sharing Biblo.
@ rike
“This is a view of the topic I hadn’t thought of before, Doug. Thanks.”
…and thank you rike
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Can someone give it to me in bite size why this difference between oneness and trinitarianism (sp?) is a schismatic level disagreement? I don’t really get why it’s such a big deal.
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Not bite size, but I can tell you where to start reading. Go back to the divisions in the first centuries of christianity and look at the varied beliefs about God and regarding the persons of the trinity (as was finally stated in the first creeds) and see what the issues and divisions were and how and why they were addressed by theologians and councils at the time. At that point it becomes kind of apparent to me that a plethora of early ‘heresies’ are being dug up and revived as valid gospel. The issue becomes at this point, however, as to whether the councils had the right to make any sort of decisions (like the one regarding the trinity) and whether they had any right to call anybody a heretic at the time.
These latter issues concerning authority have not been solved and are one dividing line within christian beliefs to this day. The beliefs that the church does not have this sort of authority are part and parcel of the reformation and the continuing freedom of theological debate, for better or worse, and opinion is divided on that.
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@ Doug Shea:
Thanks for correcting me Doug. I appreciate it. 🙂
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Doug Shea wrote:
I too still love God and am hoping to find a place where it is safe to go to worship. I am a little slow on the uptake when it comes to people double-talking doctrine and often miss it (for instance, my brother saw Rob Bell’s view on hell in “Velvet Elvis.” I didn’t until he came out explicitly against it). That is why I am seeking out the teachings of the early church in the creeds. I just may end up in a more liturgical setting (big move for me as I have been a worship leader with a guitar-very similar to your style!). God bless you for being more astute than I am about your doctrinal surroundings! May God open my eyes as well!
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Lydia wrote:
Not all prosperity gospel preachers are Oneness. But it is easy to see why they would gravitate in that direction. When a major part of your belief system is heretical (oneness) it is a short path to other distortions. I believe that is why the earlier stood so strongly against oneness, because they knew it would corrupt the overall message. Something we need to remember today.
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“Or is the ARC a big tent that exists merely to franchise the brand and orthodoxy is optional?”
This is my own suspicion. When it’s all about the benjamins, who really cares about nitpicky things like whether or not people are actually worshiping the God of Scripture?
From LifeSong’s “What We Believe”:
“There is one God; infinite in power, holy in nature, and personal in His love for mankind. Through the grand story of redemption, He has revealed Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit”
That is some very careful wording; it could be interpreted either along Oneness or Trinitarian lines.
“Tithes and offerings are an expression of heartfelt worship”
You know, I think that among all the ARC organizations, this may be the one true doctrinal commonality.
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Doug Shea= you clearly have the spirit in you. What an example of standing for God, in Love. You represent him well! How tough to be used to spread the Word to people you care about that are “Christians” but don’t believe the Word, as it is written. The world is not an easy place to believe the entire Bible is correct. Keep fighting the good fight, you represent well. What an example you set! Your music rocks, brother! Maybe it’s because you have a heart for Jesus!
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I want to thank all of the folks who boldly put their names on this post. It has been very helpful for me to see how threatened leaders respond, no matter the issue involved.
Here are a couple of red flags for me.
1. The accusation of gossiping from discussing a valid concern.
2. The pastor feeling you to leave quietly, without stating your concern to others.
3. The pastors hesitance to discuss doctrine which means he was obviously aware of the concerns that would be expressed.
4. His wish that you did not return to the church to say good-bye of collect your instruments. A church which has nothing to be afraid of would not do this.
5. Lies spread about those of you who left.
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@ Doug Shea:
Your story sounds similar to science fiction where you think you have moved into a good wholesome community and start seeing signs of pod people. Well done, I applaud your courage and the honorable way you and your colleagues dealt with this.
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@ Albuquerque Blue:
Ditto Nancy Okrapod. In addition to that, I think that because the nature of God and the nature of Jesus Christ is tied so closely to the identity of Christians that these issues are crucial. That probably will not make sense to you as an atheist, but try to think about other things that are crucial to you and maybe where there is emphatic disagreement, and you might get a better idea of what the big deal is. There are orthodoxy wars on every college campus, and they are not about God and Jesus Christ, for sure. 🙂
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@ dee:
Interesting that these same things keep coming up, regardless of the underlying theology. Thanks for posting this and thanks to the people who told their stories. It is something I knew nothing about, and I would like to encourage people who have been through the wringer supposedly for the name of Jesus.
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Doug Shea wrote:
That is a great way to put it. The Trinity is three persons united as one by love for one another. Not by power and rank, as the ESS guys say, but by pure love for one another. And by that we will show we are disciples as well.
I know this has been a very bruising and maybe even brutalizing experience. I’m thankful that you can see that this is not God and not Jesus and not the Gospel. And I hope that all of you who were caught up in this find a place of spiritual rest.
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This is not directly related to the current discussion, but in a weird way it is. This is from a story in the NYTimes about a young woman from Washington state who has been caught up in the ISIS (yeah, THOSE guys) orbit. There’s a video with the story. The whole thing is definitely worth reading and watching.
Here’s a quote worth thinking about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/world/americas/isis-online-recruiting-american.html
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__
“Lost In Translation?”
Talk about believing church ‘rumors’ that were being spread?
hmmm…
I remember one Pastor Charles Joseph Mahaney, who by stealth drew his ‘family of churches’ (PDI later named Sovereign Grace Church SGM) into some form of Calvinism, yet did not bother to tell anyone, – that was what he was doing. Documented evidence shows that he even went so far as to blackmail a fellow church Org. founder when the plot was discovered. He ‘got away’ with the whole venture by apparently and essentially bribing other outside calvinist 501(c)3 church and ministry officials with large donation to their specific 501(c)3 religious establishments. Yes, he lived to preach another day. Ask his unsuspecting victims. His cronies, apparently, don’t give a damn. This 501(c)3 non-profit christian church abuse saga continues,
What?
Might wanna stay tuned, ‘rumor’ has it he and other PDI/SGM/SGC church officials harbored pedophiles while their unsuspecting ‘victims’ were deliberately made unaware and kept in the dark.
(Note: an SGM pedophile conviction in a Maryland court brought further light onto this horrific group of churches saga.)
Taken at ‘face value’ ?
What?
Might wanna beeeeeeee careful where you attend services, as it is it is advised generally that anyone wishing to attend a 501(c) christian church gathering , do diligence. One might be surprised (or shocked) by what they turn up.
(sadface)
Don’t say you haven’t been ‘politely’ warned,
ATB
Sopy
—
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mirele wrote:
I wonder if this pastor ever knew that by blowing off this young woman what he might have been sentencing her to. Also interesting that ISIS uses “love bombing” to lure converts.
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Bill M wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. Also interesting the Islamic recruiter told her not to believe foxnews. :o)
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Lydia wrote:
I saw that too, I wonder if he spelled it Faux, LOL
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Bill M wrote:
I’m afraid we’re going to hear more about that young woman and in the worst possible way. Sometimes the Internet is an absolute curse.
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NJ wrote:
the word “revealed” is a very important statement to watch for….also “manifested” or some similar derivative
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@ Gram3:
@ Okrapod:
Thanks for the info! ^_^
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@ Bill M:
:o)
The whole story broke my heart for that young woman. Makes me want to keep a better eye out for the lonely and isolated ones. I can say that is the strong suit of one of my teens. She is always bringing home different sorts no one else will bother with at school.
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@ Mary Martinez:
Have any of those who were involved discussed among yourselves the role of authoritarian leadership in this? The stories only touch on it but they give the appearance the pastor had too much power and little accountability. Would a system with much less power for the pastor ended differently?
Again thanks for your stories and how well you handled yourselves.
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Lydia wrote:
One of my sisters was that way also. In my foolish years I dismissively referred to it as collecting strays.
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Mary and Doug, I gripped my tablet reading this last night. The deception and hiding of doctrine is frightening. Doctrine should be the very first thing analyzed. I am amazed as to how many churches have murkey or opaque statements of faith that are confusing. The other thing that is painful that I and many others can relete to is how divisive this can become. It tears apart relationships and friendships because many people struggle with discernment and don’t know the basics.
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Mary Martinez wrote:
Yes, indeed, and no mention of “persons.” Sorry you had to go through this, and thanks for telling your story here. I really had no idea about the ARC.
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Bill M wrote:
Oh, they have made her life richer, too. Others don’t know what they are missing.
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The thing about love bombing is that it works, I think, because it simultaneously appeals to a real and deep need we have for relationship, and it also appeals to our own self-importance. I may be projecting here, but it is so much easier to see when someone else is being love-bombed than it is for me to see it.
The young woman has some cognitive/emotional problems, and she is easy prey for these monsters. It is frightening that things like beheadings can become somehow OK. I trust that everyone is keeping a close eye on her. Good for her grandparents for stepping up when her mom flamed out.
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@ Gram3:
…than it is for me to see it when I’m the target of the love-bombing.
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mirele wrote:
It might seem that way – Who said if you deny the Trinity you lose your salvation but if you try to understand it you will lose your mind? Was It Augustine? But denying the Trinity has been at the core of nearly every cult.
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Lydia wrote:
Well, I’ve been thinking about this all day, and I wonder if we haven’t locked ourselves into thinking that Person A does 1 while Person B does 2 and Person C does 3 and that’s just the way it is. It amounts almost to practical tri-theism, and I think it does deviate from orthodox Social Trinitarianism.
However, if the Three are One and together have a Will that in perfect union, is it unreasonable to see each person enacting that One Will at various times and in various ways. What got me thinking this way is recalling Millard Erickson’s book where he goes into this notion of roles and how each Person does the same “role” at different times. It applies to the ESS heresy, but ISTM that it might apply in the Oneness heresy as well, but in a different way.
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Clergy is listed at #8 on this:
10 careers with the most psychopaths per capita
http://www.salon.com/2015/06/23/10_careers_with_the_most_psychopaths_per_capita_partner/
From that page:
“Religious organizations provide easy access to victims…”
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@ mirele:
Look, it isnotabout radical Islamists. To all Muslims, trinitarianism is, basically, worshipping more than one god.
Their reasoning makes sense to me. Xtians are the odd ones out, per monotheistic religions.
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@ numo
I have a physical body, a mind that makes decisions and operates the body and a spirit that I believe will live forever. All are distinct, yet all are me, you could not accurately describe me without reference to all three parts. Is my wife a polygamist?
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Gram3 wrote:
I know. The language seems to trip us up as if we don’t describe it right– we are automatically in the Oneness camp or worse. Look at Isaiah 9 and the descriptors for the coming son:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Everlasting Father?
But I keep going back to Jesus outside His Incarnation (Phil 2). And I remind myself that those OT scribes were writing ‘Lord of Host Army’s’ and reciting the Shema.
There is so much more that I dug into during my ESS research days that only made me see the absolute folly in trying to systematize any of it.
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me wrote:
I’m sure there have been Trinitarian-based cults.
This is why I have a problem with defining a problem organization based strictly on beliefs. Yeah, it’s fun to laugh at Scientology’s wacky beliefs, but that’s not why Scientology is so problematic. Xenu and body thetans aren’t the problem I see with Scientology–the problem is the organization’s insatiable demands for money, its insistence that members disconnect from “suppressive persons,” and the way it treats people in the Sea Org (the ones who signed the billion-year contract). Oh yeah, let’s not forget how it goes after its enemies. You could write a book about it. Tony Ortega did, about Paulette Cooper, who was a journalist harassed by Scientology for literally decades. And she’s just one of many.
So, as I said before, my problem with The LifeWay (and ARC) is not so much that they’re oneness, but that they’re being deceptive about it and they’re setting up a church rather like a business. Kind of like Scientology, you know.
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numo wrote:
Understood–that was my point earlier, that trinitarian theology was an answer to a question by Jewish critics of Christianity to what appeared to them as rank tritheism.
My concern for this young woman was that she was a church-going Christian who taught Sunday school and was given the cold shoulder when she went to her pastor with a question. And that gave her ISIS recruiters an opening for getting her into their orbit for who knows what kind of nefarious purpose.
I’m sure there are Trinitarian cults out there. It’s quite possible to give a handwave and assent to the Nicene and Athanasian creeds but run an organization as dangerous as Scientology. Because having the right creed is NOT going to protect you from a dangerous cult, in my opinion. It can happen! (Where is HUG and shepherding when you need him?)
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mirele wrote:
Wait let me try,
“Joyful Submission to Dear Comrade Leader”
Did I do good HUG?
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@ Law Prof:
I am not trying to argue your point. Neither Judaism nor Islam countenance the xtian trinity – that’s all i was trying to say.
Also, your spirit/soul/body analogy only works for those who believe in either the spirit, the soul, orboth.
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@ mirele:
I went through the shepherding movement, so it’s not just HUG who has plenty of experience with xtiany-y cults.
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@ Fjones
Thank you for your kind words.
@Gram3
Thank you
@Bill M
Yes, at Lifeway Andrew had no accountability to anyone. The only “accountability” was he had to report church numbers to ARC.
@Eagle
“The deception and hiding of doctrine is frightening.”
I agree. It was hard for me to even find out and I was in leadership. What I pray for is that Holy Spirit would speak truth to the core of every person that walks through the door.
@Bilbo Skaggins
You should send me some of your music!
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me wrote:
It was Augustine. He finally gave up trying to understand it.
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K.D. wrote:
The neo-Calvinists must have borrowed this technique, wherein new seminary grads are advised to skirt the issue of their 5 point beliefs until they are hired by a church, and are then able to gradually introduce their theology. If it’s true, why hide it? I’d think your conscience (or the holy spirit) would compel you to share it!
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@ Janet:
This makes me so sad. I am running into this more and more.
There is no place in the entire Bible that says we should use deception of any kind in sharing the word of God.
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Bill M wrote:
You forgot “humbly of course” & chuckle, chuckle”.
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@ Janet:
Janet, this is so true and the idea was that the pew sitter was ignorant about truth and the pastor would have to slowly bring them around without telling them what he was doing. (Cult brainwash 101?). Chapter 4 of “Quiet Revolution” by Ernest Reisinger outlines the “how to” for the Neo Cal world. This was the early playbook so ingrained that later young YRR pastors had not even heard of it but were using the tactics they learned from their gurus.
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Doug Shea wrote:
There is a growing anti Trinity movement I have seen around called http://21stcr.org/index.html but they are open about it.
What I see your guy doing is what the Neo Cals did. They want the resources and support that comes with one group to build their own like minded group. It is deception, pure and simple.
What gets to me is that there has been so much evidence of this sort of behavior, people do not know what they are getting into and church is fast becoming a place not to trust. So many pastors will say, don’t judge us based upon anther church and that sounds fair but when people are burned, deceived and used, it only makes it harder for the pastors who are honest and not about their own egos.
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numo wrote:
True, a person who’s smitten with materialism will not care for it; but if one presumes the existence of an everlasting soul (certainly a less absurd presumption that in all defiance to the First Law of Thermodynamics that an unknowing, stupid mass of matter and energy just blinked into existence out of nothingness and became our universe) it’s a darned good analogy. Even if you don’t make that presumption, you still have to admit that in the abstract it explains on a rudimentary level how a God could be three, yet one. It might also well explain a manner in which we’d be made in that God’s image. It’s not original with me, either, it’s ancient.
Of course, no analogy about the nature of God is perfect, God being God, us being us. So my analogy breaks down at some point as all must, and I throw my hands in the air and understand that I can’t understand. But given that I have faith in a God Who is utterly impossible to conceive, beyond all knowing, a Being Who somehow violates that First Law of Thermodynamics, I have serious reservations about any belief system that fits such a God in a tight, more-or-less understandable box. This is one of the reasons why I think you have it precisely backwards to reject a belief system that doesn’t makes sense to you. Why exactly would you expect an Impossible Being to make sense to a feeble human mind?
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@ Lydia:
I meant to add to this but forgot. Even talking about this makes me a bit nervous as it is not easy to find the right language.
The early council discussing this used the terminology considering the Trinity as “of the same essence or substance”. What my feeble mind thinks is that taking that phrase and using the word “persons” to describe the trinity is where it might have been even more confusing. We tend to think of persons as “different” and having different “roles” and even different thinking or different positions within a social structure. That takes us away from the “of the same substance” thinking.
I think the idea of “persons” in the Trinity might have made ESS much easier to swallow for many.
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Okrapod gives a good encapsulation I think.
Ideas are, and have always been dangerous. Dangerous to those who hold them and dangerous to those who oppose them. Sometimes they can be even more dangerous to those who hold them. Isaac Newton (the inventor of the Calculus) was a deeply religious man and also a deeply committed student of the Bible. He felt that the Scriptures do not support Trinitarian Theology and that it was largely the product of the Nicene fathers.
He wisely kept it under wraps because in those days you could still be hauled before an Ecclesiastical court and charged with heresy and or blasphemy for harboring views which diverged from established ‘orthodoxy’. One of his friends lost his professorship at Cambridge for ‘theological deviation’ and one Thomas Aikenhead was hanged at Edinburgh Scotland in 1697 for denying the Trinity.
Fortunately we’re past those olden times and religion has no real power over the court system (although there are those who’d dearly love to return us to ‘the good old days’).
In one sense I’m with you in that I don’t see why it’s such a big deal either and here’s why:
I am far more concerned about whether or not those who claim the name of Jesus practice Jesus as opposed to basing their claim on what they ‘believe’ about Jesus. In Jewish thought belief and action are inextricably bound, you can’t have one without the other. In Mathematics we call this an ‘if and only if’ condition. The main body of this thread’s article clearly shows that the whackadoodle cult in Milwaukee is sorely lacking in the deeds which would affirm Christ no matter how much they plead the contrary.
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@ Law Prof:
As I said, I was trying to point out the different views of the other two major monotheistic religions.
I have no wish to get into a discussion about souls, etc.
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I’ve been wondering about whether people realize what 1 John 3 and James say about sound doctrine. It’s mightily important but it doesn’t save. Our life is changed by Christ, and anyone not characterized by love is potentially unsaved! We can’t know who is what but we can watch fruits and are responsible to deal with our own hearts. Whenever someone kicks people when they are down like that I have to wonder whether they know God. I can’t say. But I do wonder in light of the Scriptures.
@ Law Prof:
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numo wrote:
I think it’s obvious I’d love to cross swords with you over just that point and convince you not only that you have one, but that it was made by the one whom I follow. But I have no intention of being a further pest, so I’ll honor your request.
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@ Lydia:
Historically, the oneness heresy came a century and a half before the Arian controversy. An early teacher named Sabellius (from whence the name Sabellianism, the name of the oneness doctrine until Adolf von Harnack renamed it “modalism” at the end of 19th c.) taught that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three names for the same God. Sabellius denied any real distinctions among the persons. Tertullian (“Against Praxeas”) wrote the classic defense of the tri-personality of God in the third century.
In a way, the oneness heresy is the exact opposite of ESS. ESS overblows the distinctions among the divine persons, subordinating them by the contrived “role.” Oneness obliterates any real distinction. The two heresies are the two ditches along the road of orthodox Christian theology. The ESS ditch destroys the unity of the Godhead, while the oneness ditch destroys the diversity.
Jim G.
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dee,
I would like to see if anyone us combined all the deception, duplicity, bad theology, wrong theology, spiritual abuse types unleashed by wolf in shepherd’s clothing from SGM, Mars hill, ARC, Acts29, and other similar churches. It is mind boggling how many out there that are run as a business that cares only about the almighty dollars and not the people. I would like all people we warned before they spend their time and money. It is so sad that there are many more that are deceptive that it sullies the name of Christ. They must be exposed and gotten rid of in short order. People like Doug, Brent Detwiler, and others must be encouraged so that the deception will not continue
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Melody wrote:
Certainly Law Prof was resorting to hyperbole in smacking someone who is unloving but I know what he means. Using your passages in such situations, I would likely not have the presence of mind to quote 1st John “Those who do not love are still under the power of death” and then let them decide.
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With regard to the Trinity, I agree with @Law Prof that we are trying to understand something that truly cannot be comprehended. God is of a supernatural nature, which, by definition, is something that is outside the realm of this natural world and our true understanding. Trying to understand such an incredible, pure, sacrificial love makes my head hurt just trying to conceive it; however, it makes my heart humble and forever grateful.
As for myself, I firmly believe in the triune God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
@Doug Shea, I am so deeply sorry for the experience that you have had with Life Way Church. Sometimes it’s hard for us to understand why we are allowed to go through experiences like this, particularly when we are doing our sincere best to follow what we believe the Lord would have us to do. At the very least, I believe that your willingness to share this experience will help those of us who are trying to discern the real truth, in what I believe to be the last days. We are told that false teachings and doctrines will become rampant. My prayer for the church as a whole is that is that these false teachers and doctrines will be exposed. Thank you for your courage to be transparent and truthful.
After reading some of the other posts on this website, in particular regarding Church of the Highlands, I would like to offer a word of caution, considering that there are so many churches under the ARC umbrella. I personally believe that there are some differences between each one of these member churches. What may be common at one church may not be part of another at all.
I have visited Church of the Highlands on a number of occasions. I am not a member. In contrast to Life Way, Church of the Highlands has the statement of faith outlined on its website. They believe in three distinct persons in the Godhead, and they use the term “Trinity”. They baptize in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Chris Hodges has a seminary degree.
They do believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is a teaching that is different than what I was raised to believe. If anyone is interested, the sermon, “The Baptism in the Holy Spirit,” is online, dated June 11, 2003. He does specifically address having a “prayer language”, but he also explicitly states that if a Christian does not, it does not mean that he is a second-class Christian or isn’t saved.
Church of the Highlands does not have a healing service like Gateway church does. As a policy, the church does not maintain debt. With their last building expansion, they paid cash. The weekly Sunday service is viewed in 11 correctional facilities in the state of Alabama, and there is a thriving prison ministry. Reaching the lost and serving others are major tenets of the church.
I am not deeply involved in the church, but I do know a few folks that are. I am not trying to make Highlands out to be something that is is not or “sell” anyone on it. I am still trying to decide on a few things about the church and its leaders. Sadly, the bottom line is that no church is perfect, and we are dealing with equally fallen people who need redemption and love from our Savior.
As for the ARC organization, I think all of us need to be cautious about taking a particular statement or a document out of context with regard to any church. While there may be one version of the document online, each individual church may modify it according to the doctrine and practices of that individual congregation. In essence, I believe we need to be careful about extrapolating something that is general, if we haven’t taken the time to attend and participate at that church. It would be slanderous to unfairly attribute practices or doctrine to each member of an umbrella organization. That’s the equivalent of saying “Baptists are all alike.” Uh…no…they.are.not!
With regard to any church hiring lawyers, the churches may need it more than ever in view of SCOTUS’ decision this week. God forbid if teaching the Bible is deemed hate speech.
I do appreciate this website and those who are willing to bring forth important information to those of us who are asking and interested. I know this is no small endeavor, and I, for one, want to thank you!
May God Bless!
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@Doug
@Albuquerque Blue
Oneness was just a vague concept that I knew was out there but never encountered in my life.
I ran into it ironically from being involved with African Christians. Yes, it appears to be growing rapidly and I wonder if I will be given opportunity in this lifetime to oppose it and that would be fine with me.
May I suggest the following as it’s ultimate origin?
*First read Ezekiel 28:11-19.
*Next read Isiah 14:3-22 and pay especial attention to what Lucifer says in verse 13.
We are always given this tripe about a war of God vs Satan. Good vs Evil. Light vs Darkness. Ying vs Yang..OK maybe not the last one so much. Satan (the Covering Cherub) is not in a war with God at all. He has an obsession with God. That is, God-The-Father. He wants to be like God the Father.
Go back to vs 13 and see how he mentions”his throne.” Lucifer did not have a throne, he stood on God’s throne, because that’s what Cherubim do. God sits on God’s throne “between the Cherubim” as noted in this next verse.
“15And Hezekiah prayed unto the LORD, saying, 16O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” Isiaha 37:15-16
Move on to Rev. 3:21 and read the following:
“21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne”
*The Cherubim STAND UPON the throne of God.
*God dwells on His throne BETWEEN the Cherubim.
*Jesus Christ is Lord and he sits “IN” his Father’s throne.
*Lucifer, who was a liar from the beginning, lied to himself and said he would be equal with God.(The Father) He said he would SIT DOWN on the throne. He can’t because it’s not his throne and the place he desires is already occupied by God.(The Son)
*This is the reason that through all history The Slander has spoken against the Son. Satan hates the Son because he wishes he was like the Son, seated in power next to the Father.
Oneness is just another lie of Satan to deny that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God. This is why at the End, both in Heaven and on Earth, all will be forced confess that Jesus is Lord.
It as Jesus said to his enemies, “44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” They knew he was the Son, but slandered The Christ because inside they wished for his throne and refused to confess he was Lord.
That is the Oneness Heresy summarized. They know but refuse to confess and show they are not children of Abraham. (The father of those who believe) But Children of the Devil and will share his destruction.
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@ Doug Shea:
forgot to hit reply button. See comment below.
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Jim G. wrote:
Thanks for the background, Jim. It is easy to see how people might overcorrect when realizing ESS is wrong or visa versa. When I was first catching on to ESS and looking into this years back, my eyes were crossing and head spinning. But I do think it is a worthwhile endeavor. although there are not many to discuss questions or observations with because if they even think for one minute you are questioning the concept of the Trinity then you are toast.
For example, would a deist be a Modalist? I heard one scholar say long ago when you see the Founders constantly referring to “Providence” it meant they were deists. Huh?
There are quite a few interesting non Trinitarians in history. Dare I mention Servetus?
Can they be wrong about this and saved?
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@ Law Prof:
Thank you. I am just not up for crossing swords over this today; maybe any day. I think we have somewhat differing beliefs on it, and would prefer to just let it rest, if that’s OK with you.
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@ Jim G.:
@ nathan Priddis:
Thanks for this information. I really hate it when I think that any of the three Persons are being diminished. The beauty of the Trinity, for me, is the perfect unity of three individual persons who are united in perfect love and of one mind and purpose. I need to look into Oneness some more.
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Lydia wrote:
Just my opinion, but I don’t think that God expects us to understand the inner workings of the Trinity beyond what he has revealed. In other words, I don’t think there will be an exam on Systematics. I hope.
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Gram3 wrote:
If that is all it is, omitting ‘of the same substance’, then that is called tri-theism and is a concept which has been believed by some people. In other words, three separate persons whose only unity is love, mind and purpose is saying three separate gods united to form one godhead, and that is called tri-theism. I think that some people who call themselves trinitarians have beliefs more close to this than to trinitarianism.
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Interesting story. The meat and potatoes is less about theology and more about dishonesty. Whatever the belief the pastor was disingenuous at best. Sounds like the point of the exercise was to build the church membership rolls. ARC plants the seed but doesn’t look at the package the seed came from. Just as long as ARC gets a cut of the proceeds. Should ARC be responsible for the doctrines? Maybe not, if the point is to just plant. But those getting involved in an ARC church may have no idea what they’re signing on to. And the take home message is the same as many other articles here. Don’t sign on the dotted line!
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@ Okrapod:
I didn’t say that was all there is to the Trinity. That is the aspect which I find most moving personally.
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Bill M wrote:
Probably hyperbole, but not certainly. Jesus wasn’t above grabbing a whip and knocking over tables when the moment called for it, I have images of Indiana Jones. That said, I’ve never once taken a whack at an abusive leader or abusive, alleged fellow Christian, but I’ve sure had a few thoughts of it.
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numo wrote:
Sure, I don’t want to be any more of a horse’s a– than I’ve been already.
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@ Law Prof:
It’s OK. we all have our days – i know that i do!
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@ Law Prof:
I was, btw, speaking generally regarding belief in the soul and/or spirit. I was not in any way making reference to my own beliefs.
Sometimes i think it can be difficult to make those kinds of general points on xtian blogs, forms, etc. Just because a person makes a genersl statement foes not mean that they agree or disagrer.mit is an observation. Not a statement of personal belief.
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@ numo:
Forums, not forms
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@ Lydia:
Deists are unitarian (small “u”) but not modalist. Deists deny that God interacts with his creation, so they deny the deity of Christ or the presence of the Spirit. To the deist, “god” is fully transcendent, never immanent, and completely unitary. A modalist recognizes Jesus and the Spirit, but not the personal distinctions among them and the Father.
Calvinists from a century-plus ago were not deists, although perhaps in their rationalism they functioned in a similar fashion. It’s not a giant leap from a meticulously-determinist God to a clockmaker God. Immanence is either greatly diminished or abolished altogether. But I would guess that it was the Enlightenment rationalism that fueled both fires.
Can they be wrong about this and be saved? That’s a tough question. My gut says yes, but my gut also says that by believing this they are excluded from the visible church. Whether that exclusion extends into eternity or not is above my pay grade. I will say this, though. In my experience most oneness folks are rebelling against caricatures of the Trinity that I would reject too. They are playing a straw man game. That gives me more hope than I would have otherwise.
Jim G.
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@ Muff Potter:
Thanks Muff, I always enjoy your perspective.
@ nathan Priddis:
Thanks for sharing Nathan Priddis. That’s certainly some vivid imagery you referenced.
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Mark Driscoll isn’t the only person who decided he needed to go to Hillsong to improve his reputation. However, unlike Driscoll, Justin Bieber is attending as a private citizen and not as a performer.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jun/29/justin-bieber-sydney-hillsong-church-conference
No kidding!
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mirele wrote:
To quote Lily Tomlin: “I get more cynical every year but I just can’t keep up”
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__
Jim G.,
hey,
For five hundred years the reformed movement has taught Calvin’s God predetermines to send folk to hell, for His glory. Yet certain present day Calvinists get away with this false representation of God’s word, and hardly anyone says anything. Those that speak out are called Arminians or God forbid possibly heretics.
(sadface)
Batter Up?
hmmm…
Sopy
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numo wrote:
Numo,
hey,
Since when is The Wartburg Watch blog ‘concerned’ about the beliefs of Muslims? Respectfully, this blog is a Christian descernment blog, why ‘trouble’ our Muslims friends who have not provoked us here?
ATB
Sopy
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*
*
*
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Conspicuous Inquiry : “Pay Attention To The Pastoral 501(c)3 Men Behind The Proverbial ‘ARC’ Organizational Curtain?”
hmmm…
Q. Wartburg Watch, are you warning your readers with this post, YO! to (yet again) beware & possibly stay away from all ARC[1] affiliated churches?
Bump!
Q. Are more and more pastors from this 501(c)3 christian church franchise (ARC) scripturally misleading their congregations?
What?
Please note that ‘ARC’ is not included in your list of
TWW Abbreviations here:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-our-faq/
Thankz 4 what youze do!
ATB
Sopy
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[1]Association of Related Churches
1201 Lee Branch Lane • Birmingham, AL 35242
(205) 981-4566 • info@arcchurches.com
TWW ARC References:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/06/26/personal-experiences-with-arcs-lifeway-church-of-milwaukee-wisconsin/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/05/building-the-arc-an-overview-of-this-church-planting-network/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/11/19/where-have-all-the-flowers-gone-demons-tongues-and-healings-at-chris-hodges-church-of-the-highlands-arc/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/12/01/arcs-robert-morris-paul-preached-under-the-influence/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/12/03/arcs-robert-morris-recommends-books-by-neil-anderson-who-says-he-was-bitten-by-satan/
;~)
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@ Sopwith:
Because mirele raised an important point, that’s why.
I donot know of any rule forbidding the mention of other beliefs here, and afaik, i did/said nothing wrong in responding to mirele’s comment. Further, i also mentionend Judsism and Jewish beliefs in my replies to her comment, yet you single out my mention of Islam. I think that is inconsistent.
Thst said, i do not believe itmis worth pursuing this any further.
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Remember numo,, one day in the forseeable future, it will more than likely be the christians in the ashtrays.
(sadface)
Sopy
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numo wrote:
Yes, forums can be the worst places to facilitate understanding; at times I’ve called down the fires upon people who’ve called them down upon me in turn on forums–knowing that if I’d ever meet that person face-to-face, we’d probably laugh and go have a beer.
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Sopwith wrote:
lolwut? How does that in any way relate to Numo referencing other monotheistic religions? I’m nonplussed by your non sequitur.
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Albuquerque,
hey,
Go ahead, hijack da post…
hahahahahaha
ATB
Sopy
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Mary Martinez wrote:
You do know that Boyd is also an open theist right? No biggie, I’m an open theist too and have been for about 6 years now. I’ve always been a live and let live kind of guy though and could never understand why some folks get so uptight when others don’t believe as they believe. I hold to the tenets of the Apostle’s Creed which in my opinion, affords me a wide latitude of conscience and intellectual freedom. I remember reading awhile back that conservative evangelical scholar Norman Geisler is purported to have demanded that Boyd be ejected from ETS (evangelical theological society) on account of his views regarding open theism.
Nowhere, either from the pulpit or in print, has Boyd ever denied Jesus’ virgin birth, his bodily resurrection from the the dead, and his bodily return to this world, and yet it seems that this is still not enough in some camps of Christendom who hold that a kind of rigid determinism is the only acceptable option in the Almighty’s dealings with humankind.
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I also seem to be missing the implications of these beliefs. I thought God was a mystery and that we see Him as if in a “cloudy mirror” anyway (hence the worm quote above the title). What are the implications of holding to oneness theology instead of trinity doctrine? I read the post, still confused. Why is this a huge deal? 🙂
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I’ve wondered about Sopy for a long time….
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
He was referring to the Holocaust. Which was/is totally unrelated to how the major monotheistic religions view God, which was *all* I was trying to state.
It can be so frustrating sometimes to simply try and make statements of fact on xtian boards and forums. After yesterday + today, I am about ready to throw in the towel for a little while. I need a break.
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Sopwith wrote:
Not on these shores Sopy, not ever. Too many good men died to ensure that America remains the land of …unalienable rights and that her character also remains unique in all the world.
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rike wrote:
That jumped out at me too, rike. If they are confident in the oneness, then debate the Trinitarians straight on. To obfuscate indicates an agenda, and in this case I think the agenda is building the base at all costs.
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P.S. Here’s a post on modalism. Don’t be frightened away by the title. Three Reasons I Embrace Modalism, and a Trinity of Reasons I Do Not: https://timfall.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/three-reasons-i-embrace-modalism-and-a-trinity-of-reasons-i-do-not/
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I so relate to this story.
I remember that gut-sick feeling: omgosh!! I’ve been deceived. Hugely deceived.
And then the even sicker feeling: I’ve been used as a shill. I’ve helped with the deception.
Never, ever want to do that again.
Really upbuilt by the godly, in-the-light way these folks handled the Truth. God’s Church LIVES!!
Thanks to all involved for this account.
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“Draining Da Proverbial ARC Swamp?”
hmmm…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
how touching, HUG…
your sooooooo sweet!
-snicker-
*
‘Choose Your Religious Bruise?’
hmmm…
Sure, last time I checked neither the Moslems nor the Jews were being subjected to the ocasional TWW roast.
Certain questionable Christian groups, however aparrently, are fair game… 🙂
*
One dose well to keep in mind that the primary purpose of ‘this’ TWW Post was to inform Wartburg Watch readers of an ARC affiliated 501(c)3 ‘christian’ pastor that ‘knowingly misled’ his congregation with ‘foreign theological matter’ (FTM) PU! and then politely responded with a ‘tad’ of dishonesty and underhandidness when ‘biblically’ ™ and ‘lovingly’ (r) confronted.
Please remember, huh?, it is good ta read your bible and pray for these kind folks dat were taken 4 a 501(c)3 religious ride…
(sadface)
P.S. I can’t really help you wit da dead skunk in da middle of da road…
sorry.
Dem da breakz.
ATB.
Sopy
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I think it peculiar that there is great fuss made over literal versus metaphorical persons/aspects to the Godhead but none at all over God being only/always male, even though both sexes of human are said to be made in God’s image, and God isn’t a sexual being.
But then, that’s “her”esy for ya.
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@ Patrice:
I’ll be honest: how is God male? The 2nd person of the trinity became physically incarnate in a male body, yes, but… God is spirit. Not subject to a gender binary, even when/if male prnouns are used.
Some people certsinly want a god made in their likeness, but i don’t believe that is what is meant, not even in the use of the word “father.” God is God, and er are not God.
Some pronouns had to be chosen. I suppose the ANE societies would never have
accepted feminine prnouns, and tbh,i am not exactly fond of some of the strangeness that seems to come up whenever people attempt to create a female god.
Probably said too much already, and i do think all of this is worth exploring, but i also dimply cannot accept that God is male. That is also not a hill i care to die on.
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@ Patrice:
Btw, i once had this discussion with a woman who believes yhat god is male.
It did not go well.
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@ Sopwith:
Ok, mirele mentioned sn NYT story and i responded. That’s all.it.was. please stop trying to turn it into something else.
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*
*
*
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numo wrote:
*
hey,
numo,
“When you first don’t succeed, try, try, try, again?”
hmmm…
Ya keep bringing stuff to da TWW table, and fail, when politely confronted , ‘ta “help” ta proverbially drain da swamp’?!?.
Your spelling is poop’in out as well?
respctfully, it kinda makes it hard sometimes for kind folks ta ‘understand’ your ‘comments’ to present a proper response…
(sadface)
…but we will try to understand anyway…
ATB
Sopy
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Patrice wrote:
Hey, at least “Wisdom” is female. :o)
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@ Jim G.:
Thanks Jim!
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@ numo:
Yah, a pronoun had to be made up in some languages. But really, we could easily have done something unique for God, since S/He is God, whom we value above all. We didn’t want to, that’s all.
To me, that unwillingness, plus all the belittling of women that lies behind it, is a genuine heresy. Unless we are going to see God as a Zeus because He impregnated Mary, God simply doesn’t have gender or sexuality. Or perhaps there is a Mrs. God working on the other end of the universe, about whom we haven’t been told. (After all, Owen Strachan has discovered that marriage is a universal building block: a triangle, even, the strongest known form. Be better for God to have a Mrs than find Him/Herself with internal layers of descending excellence)
IMO, chronic female-slagging needs to be set alongside those few heresies that are just plain full-out wrong. Actually, any time, and I mean any time at all, (and this happens again and again) that we consider another human as lesser for something that they came into the world with/as, I think we should call it out as heresy. It’s not just a failure of love but a failure in accuracy and an affront to the God who creates.
And anyway, Jesus said that the last shall be first, so everyone might as well get on with the program now rather than later. Be less of a shock that way 🙂 I mean, think about all those “lesser” people roaming around. They are going to someday set the tone for the rest of us. ahahahah
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@ Patrice:
I think a lot of it is linguistic. For example, Hebrew has no neuter gender. So the Shekinah takes a female pronoun. Always has.
But that gets tricky. Scots Gaelic has no neuter gender, either. It’s not about disding anyone, but about how the language evolved. If we spoke other languages, we might well have uniwue words for God that are beyond gender. I have read that thismis the case in Mandarin Chinese – but China was a *very* patriarchal country z (well, countries) until quite recently.
It is not a logical thing, but languages develop organically, after all.
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Patrice wrote:
Don’t the LDS think that God has a wife?
Patrice wrote:
If God has no gender, then how could God be ‘s/he’ any more than being ‘he’? We would have to go to something like ‘it’ which we do not use for persons, real or metaphorical. So then if we add problems with the use of person(s) for the trinity, and really think that heaven and hell are unworkable concepts we are left with: after this manner pray ye: Hey Whatever out there in some temporary or else metaphorical pseudo-reality (our father who art in heaven) we would consider a name to be somehow special if we knew if an ‘it’ had a name (hallowed be thy name)…Somehow that just leaves something missing from the whole venture, I am thinking.
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Ardiak wrote:
Welcome to the club. It is a growing club.
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@ Okrapod:
Yeah, we would have to create a specific pronoun for God. But that wouldn’t have been hard, if we’d wanted to do it. After all, we do think God is greatest above all and most exceptional.
And whatever that pronoun would be, it wouldn’t make less of seeing God as a metaphorical father, as many feel comfortable doing.
At this point, I’d be delighted if we talked about the Holy Spirit with historically-approved female pronoun, just to bring bring a little more dimension.
I know very little about the LDS but now I think I’ll do a googler. Would there be several Mrs. Gods, since Mormonism also carries some polyamory in their DNA? And I wonder where God might find them?
BTW, love your new name. Being northern, I had only ever eaten okra over-cooked in soups, but then my son-in-law fried some up and yum. Now we are growing them.
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Lydia wrote:
Seriously, that was the one thing I thought I could freely ask for as a child because of her being female. So yes, indeed!
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numo wrote:
I’m sensing a slowly-building organic need. 😉
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@ Patrice:
Hah! But it has to be something better than, say, “zie.” 😉
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@ Patrice:
The mother goddess thing in the LDS is complicated. It was in, it was out, now some women would like to bring it back, and so on. The LDS patriarchs are not pleased about this last.
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@ Sopwith:
I did not belabor the subject. It was past until you hit on it as something that is not, by your lights, an incidental thing. In my opinion, it would have been better left as that, but it wasn’t up to me.
I know you are ill, and i do pray for you. Hoping the waiting time is vety short for you.
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@ Sopwith:
@ Sopwith:
Yawn. Obvious troll is obvious.
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
*
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for the convicion of things unseen.”
I have prayed for you and your family for some time now.
May your faith be renewed and restored.
ATB
Sopy
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numo wrote:
Thank You.
I have been praying for your health and your faith since you came to Wartburg Watch, many years ago.
We have many new readers and commentors comming to TWW; it is important that they know that we are not bashing kind folks’ religion insensitively, or needlessly.
Could uou try and keep the other person in mind when when you post your comments, huh?
ATB
Sopy
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@ Sopwith:
Look, i was NOT bashing Islam *or* Judaism. I am baffled as to how you came to understand that as my intent when it clearly wasn’t – it was, in fact, the opposite. It’s as if you turned my comment inside out and bacwards to have come up with that. (Very ironic, given that ladt week i was talking about scheduling an appt. with yhe local Reform rabbi, partly to see for myself how things might go should i decide to convert to Judaism. Not sure i would mske that choice, but it is not something I’m taking lightly, either.)
Thank you for your prayers.
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@ Sopwith:
I’m thinking you totally misread Numo’s comment.
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@ Sopwith:
Sopy, I haven’t yet offered sympathy and prayers for your health problems.
I’ve had kidney stones twice and ack! I hope very very much that you are not suffering like that in any constant or semi-frequent fashion, or even at all.
And I hope to God that your ordeal will be over soon and you will be ok.
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@ Bridget:
Yes. And I’m not joking about possibly choosing to convert, either. At this point, it is definitely a very real consideration.
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numo wrote:
This is all i said. It is a plain statement of fact. That is all. The article mirele linked to provides further context regarding the Presbyterian girl named “Alex.” The woman who covered this story – the one mirele linked to – was a guest on The World (which airs on NPR) last evening.
Fwiw, while at this point, i still accept trinitarianism, it has long made sense to me that people of other faiths do not find it acceptable. It is illogical, paradoxical and just about impossible to explain. I’m not sure i could do so in a cohetent manner, that’s for sure!
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“Emphasis What?”
hmmm…
@Numo,
hey,
Just maybe I did misunderstand your emphasis,
Krunch!
I simply saw the subject or topic of Islam *or* Judaism as have nothing entirely to do with a ‘deceptive’ pastor(tm) (the topic of the post) who for some eight months or so (as I understand it) took his freshly minted congregation for a grand 501(c)3 ride on their nickel.
(sadface)
**
Your welcome 4 da prayers, Thankz 4 your as well. They mean alot. (tears)
I’m still here.
(smiley face goes here)
Blessings!
Sopy
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Patrice wrote:
Thank-You for the sweet sympathy and prayers for my health concerns. Sorry about your kidney stone. Hurt huh?
Suffering? Naaaaaaaaa, for now, I get to hang out with da broken people.
My strength has almost returned, and I am walking the the assistance of a cane.
Special diet, you know the drill.
My faith hasn’t skipped a beat.
I’m still here.
I can still remember your first visit here. i beat everyone to the punch in greeting you, you were so cool. 🙂
Been pray’in ever since.
Still doing your crafts?
Thanks for your wonderful contributions ‘here’.
ATB
Sopy
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@ Sopwith:
It didn’t have anything to do with the post, but with mirele’s link to the NYT story. I think all threads tend to drift a bit at times, and it was nothing if not drifting! 🙂
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@ numo:
Oh, I didn’t think you were joking. You have mentioned that you spent much time growing up in Jewish communities. One thing, among many, that I’m wondering is what becomes of your beliefs about Jesus if you convert?
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@ Bridget:
They would have to change.
I am at the beginning of this, just thinking and exploring options. I am not sure it will happen, and that is the main reason. If not for that, i would be more thsn halfway there, I’m thinking.
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@ Bridget:
If nothing else, talking with this rabbi might be very helpful in providing some perspective re. the problems I’m dealing with re. the long, long history of anti-semitism and anti-Judaism in xtianity, plus some other things as well.
I do think i would like to be part of a religious community that doesn’t dictate beliefs, or tell people that doubt and questioning are off the menu. In Judaism, there is much room for both. There is also ampractical emphasis on living your life and not obsessing over sin. I mean, sin is a given, but they do not believe in original sin and dealing with sin against others is a practical thing. It is not overspiritualized. There is nobody preaching hellfire and brimstone, either, which is a huge plus.
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numo wrote:
Sure. No hard feelings?
ATB
Sopy
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@ Sopwith:
Nope!
All the best to you,
numo
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These people that believe in thie “oneness” doctrine ………
When Jesus prayed on the Mt. of Olives, saying, “Father, if thou be willing,remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done.”
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, crying out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
……. Do they think Jesus was just talkin’ to himself???
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@ Doug Shea:
Did you ever get your instruments back?
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@ Lisa:
Dear Lisa, I hope you see this comment as I’m rather late to the party. I have been concerned for a long time about many dear friends who attend COTH despite the fact that Hodges turns the pulpit over to Robert Morris, a well known false teacher. We can disagree about speaking in tongues, but RM’s teaching that Jesus is God’s tithe is beyond the pale. Look Morris up on Warren Throckmorton’s site. He’s lied outright about having a degree in literature, a lie that is still evident on his bio on the list of speakers at COTH. I do hope anyone interested will listen to the sermon you mention. No, Hodges doesn’t say you have to speak in tongues, he just refers to levels of power and higher heights (where the church name came from, btw.) There are sermons by Hodges that are much more revealing, such as the one where he tells of being prophesied over by a preacher at an outdoor venue. The preacher asked him to look at the sky and count the stars, and told him that the people he would reach would be like numbering the stars. Then, inexplicably, all the knuckles in his fingers popped so loudly that everyone could hear them. He said it was an example of signs and wonders. There’s a sermon where he preaches about three baptisms. He does have a degree from a Pentecostal seminary , but you won’t see it on the church website. There’s also the small groups issue, where you can join a spiritual mapping prayer walk group, or study Robert Morris’ Blessed Life series, which tells you your money is cursed if you don’t give the first ten percent to the church, and several other studies authored by Christian authors that are questionable at best. He’s also involved with Foursquare preacher Matthew Barnett, the franchise owner of the Dream Centers. You should listen to his sermons found in the church archives. And did you know he was mentored by Ted Haggard? That explains the spiritual warfare document the Deebs wrote about last year. Since you’re from Birmingham, look up Cody Owens article in The Weld, make sure you read the comment section where Owens breaks down the actual percentage of giving compared to the amount of tithes received. Now, research this if you have any doubt that this church may be part of the rampant false teachings that are told of in the Bible. I am praying with you that false teaching will be exposed. I’m also praying for Chris Hodges. He is an amazing speaker and I think he truly loves The Lord. He says in a 2008 sermon on tongues that he really doesn’t think we should get caught up in doctrinal differences, but just love God and try to reach as many people as possible, but I know so many people absolutely torn apart spiritually because they want to speak in tongues, they want something more, some higher level of feeling of intimacy. That quest for more sends them away from the Bible, and if they buy into spiritual warfare, they spend more time rebuking the devil than studying the Word. It’s very hard to find a church in Birmingham, believe it or not, and I know it’s great to walk in there, be greeted by friendly folks, enjoy the excellent band and upbeat service. It’s tempting to dismiss the negative, but I knew I could no longer attend when Chris was absent and they piped in Rick Warren to “preach.” That’s when I started researching and I’m so thankful I did.
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refugee wrote:
Yes Andrew decided to drop them off at Dan and Lissy’s house. Thank you for asking. 🙂
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Thank you Dee, for all your hard work…and thank you everyone for taking a moment out of your day to read my story. I means the world to me.
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Doug Shea wrote:
You had quite a few folks who read your story but didn’t comment. Also, read my post tomorrow. I am going to be discussing the TWW community. As you will see, I believe the thanks belongs to you!
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@ Sopwith:
Sod off and take your condescension and attempts to control others conversation elsewhere. You’ve managed to make me no longer want to post around here.
To everyone else who answered my questions, many thanks. Taking a break from some of my social media for a while to focus on some other interests, so I’ll see you all around later on.
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@Bill M You said it….authoritarian leadership. The supposed “governing board” was made up of people Andrew had phone calls with occasionally and were in no way part of the actual life of the church.
@mirele You are right! It is the deception that is the major problem here. No one should ever be tricked into a system of beliefs that is supposed to represent the Kingdom of God.
@Law Prof “I have serious reservations about any belief system that fits such a God in a tight, more-or-less understandable box.” –DITTO!!!!–
@Melody “Watching the fruit” is exactly what I started doing here after I really started feeling unsure. It works!
@Nathan Priddis “Oneness is just another lie of Satan to deny that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God. This is why at the End, both in Heaven and on Earth, all will be forced confess that Jesus is Lord.” –Amen!!!–
@nikilee All I can do is advise you to pray and ask God to reveal to you what the big deal is. This experience has caused me to do the same and pressing into the Lord for comfort and understanding, trusting only in Him, will give you clarity of mind and remove the confusion.
@rike The father of lies has his dirty hand all over this thing…but it is very crafty and cleverly disguised behind the very name of Jesus
@Ardiak I’m so sorry you can relate but I can say that I know the Lord will use what we have gone through for the good of His Kingdom somehow!! Romans 8:28!
@Nancy2 ” Do they think Jesus was just talkin’ to himself???” That was one of my first thoughts, too. They think His human nature was talking to His divine nature. That’s basically saying Jesus had multiple personality disorder or something of the like.
I urgently believe the orthodox churches who are a part of the ARC “network” need to know that their ‘missional support and giving’ is helping to fund a significant number of organizations with questionable and/or un-orthodox beliefs and practices. Everyone deserves the chance to know what ultimate beliefs their church is standing for or propagating. It is purely Biblical to boldly stand for your beliefs!
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I’ve never figured out just where Sopy’s coming from, but the one AB referenced above is classic Christianese putdown.