SNAP Plans Protest This Sunday at The Village Church: Dallas Northway

SNAP Release:

There is an admitted/credibly accused sex offender with ties to The Village Church in North Dallas. We fear he has more victims. As a missionary sent out by this church, he was discovered to be a pedophile and child pornographer.  For some background about him, see http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/25/part-1-jordan-root-is-a-confessed-internet-child-sex-abuser-should-the-village-church-trust-him/

Rain or shine, this Sunday, May 31st at 11:00 am, fellow SNAP Leader, Amy Smith, and I will be standing out in front of The Village Church Dallas Northway Campus (at the corner of Walnut Hill and Hedgeway) at 3877 Walnut Hill Lane, Dallas, TX 75229 to warn the congregation that there is a pedophile in their midst who is being “cared for” and protected by the TVC. They need to know that their kids are not safe to be anywhere near this charismatic but perverted criminal. His conduct poses a serious risk to children. They also need to be aware that there is a good possibility that there already are local victims of Jordan Root who need tending.

Will you join us in solidarity to help protect kids in our own backyard?  If there are local victims,  they will know that they are not alone. It will take about 30 minutes of your time and you can remain anonymous. This event is intended to be informational and not confrontational. We would be most grateful for your participation.

Reply to me ASAP if you will be there and I’ll be sure to have some extra signs or handouts for you. 

Thank you,
Lisa Kendzior 
SNAP DFW
817-773-5907  

Barbara Dorris
http://www.snapnetwork.org/
SNAP · PO Box 6416, Chicago, IL 60680-6416, United States
 

Comments

SNAP Plans Protest This Sunday at The Village Church: Dallas Northway — 583 Comments

  1. This is dangerous ground that SNAP is treading. They are making accusations and assumptions (that may be correct) about JR and the extent of his involvement in paedophilia.

    I would urge SNAP to wait on two accounts:
    1. No staff member is accused of molesting children, yet that is why SNAP was created.
    2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen. They can also paint JR as a victim because of #1 and yet SNAP is saying he is an “admittedly/credibly accused sex offender.” I repeat, AS OF YET, JR has not admitted to molesting children NOR has he been formally convicted under the law.

    SNAP is rushing to a snap judgment. I strongly urge caution.

  2. Burwell Stark wrote:

    This is dangerous ground that SNAP is treading.

    SNAP has always spoken out when people in the church have said to be quiet or go slow. They have far more experience than any of us here on this blog and they know what they are doing. And they have very good attorneys that back them up.

  3. Burwell Stark wrote:

    taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen.

    Do you think that The village Church is going to treat Karen? Good night!

    Karen is one smart woman and she is no longer associated in any way, form or fashion with the church who so ill treated her. She is no longer even in the area.

    Karen has absolutely nothing to do with this protest. She is focusing on healing. SNAP decided this on their own.

  4. @ dee:

    Thank you, Dee. I will go back and re-read.

    To my defense, there has been SO MUCH released about this case that I may be forgetting some of the (major) points. 🙂

    And I wholeheartedly applaud Karen for releasing everything, btw.

  5. Burwell Stark wrote:

    2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen.

    Seriously? Yes, TVC treated Karen abominably, but the FOCUS needs to be on victims. ALL victims. TVC encouraged people to “love on” JR and members probably exposed their children to him. Has he harmed children at TVC? The possibility is horrifying and THOSE are the victims that need help the most.

  6. Is Burwell a Plausibly Deniable “Independent” Spokeshole for TVC?

    Even if he’s legit, How Can You Tell any more?

  7. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG – That made me laugh. Thank you.

    Not in the least…

    However, you never can be sure, can you…

    Except, the “man behind the curtain” here can. He has know me a large portion of my life.

  8. Jordan is not and has never been on staff at TVC, nor has he ever worked with children there. Since SIM finished their investigation, Jordan has been required to check-in with church security when he enters the building, cannot attend without a church-approved escort that will be with him at all times, and is not allowed into any part of the church set aside for children’s ministry. I’m not sure what sort of protection people are up in arms about. TVC is doing what they can and, as of their apology email to the church, committed to having an outside agency come and inspect the safety precautions in place and suggest others. This protest should be a hoot. It’ll be fun to see what sort of reactions of “yes, we know, please go in peace” they get from TVC members that are well aware of these issues and confident in the precautions already taken. What ever will you be outraged about then? What am I thinking? You’d never report on those reactions, just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.

  9. “he was discovered to be a pedophile and child pornographer”

    In reading through all the information here this week, I’ve seen JR referred to as a pornographer several times, including SNAP’s release above. I am appalled by this whole situation and totally support Karen Hinkley, but I thought a pornographer was one who creates porn, and I don’t remember J being accused of that. Just wondering…

  10. Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

  11. Burwell Stark wrote:

    2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen. They can also paint JR as a victim because of #1 and yet SNAP is saying he is an “admittedly/credibly accused sex offender.” I repeat, AS OF YET, JR has not admitted to molesting children NOR has he been formally convicted under the law.

    SNAP is rushing to a snap judgment. I strongly urge caution.

    He has admitted to viewing child porn for nearly 10 years. That makes him a sex offender from all practical and moral standpoints, even if there is not enough concrete evidence to prosecute him.

    He has also admitted to molesting children while he was a child. Again, that makes him a sex offender, even if it can’t be legally prosecuted. It also, by the vast body of research on the subject, means that he most likely has continued to molest children, even though he has not admitted to it.

  12. Burwell Stark wrote:

    This is dangerous ground that SNAP is treading. They are making accusations and assumptions (that may be correct) about JR and the extent of his involvement in paedophilia.

    I would urge SNAP to wait on two accounts:
    1. No staff member is accused of molesting children, yet that is why SNAP was created.
    2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen. They can also paint JR as a victim because of #1 and yet SNAP is saying he is an “admittedly/credibly accused sex offender.” I repeat, AS OF YET, JR has not admitted to molesting children NOR has he been formally convicted under the law.

    SNAP is rushing to a snap judgment. I strongly urge caution.

    I part company with you.
    1. Jordan Root was a missionary and that group was supported by The Village Church.
    2. The Village Church has repeatedly minimized the seriousness of Jordan Root’s crimes and in point of fact supported him.
    3. The Village Church pastors/elders proceeded with church discipline against Karen for her annulling her marriage to Jordan Root, who had lied to her about his crimes and got her to marry him. She alone stood against him; the Village Church pastors/elders did not.
    4. Caution? Are you aware that The Village Church just disciplined Karen before 6000 church members? The Village Church has supported gross sexual immorality and wanted Karen to be bound in marriage to a felon who had lied to her before marriage and during marriage.
    5. The internet child pornography that Jordan Root has admitted to viewing for years are FELONY crimes under federal and state laws that carry long prison sentences.

    http://www.ice.gov/predator
    From the US Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) website, a division of Homeland Security:
    “Predators Face Severe Penalties

    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act. Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18. ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    •Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    •Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    •Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution”

    6. There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that rivals that of the Catholic Church child sexual abuse epidemic. Sources: Church Mutual (the largest insurer of churches in the U.S.) and Richard Hammar (Harvard-educated attorney) at Church Law & Tax.
    According to Hammar, child sexual abuse is the No. 1 reason that churches are sued every single year and that has been true for years.
    http://www.churchlawandtax.com/blog/2015/may/top-5-reasons-churches-went-to-court-in-2014.html

    http://www.churchlawandtax.com/web/2014/july/top-5-reasons-churches-end-up-in-court.html

  13. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’m not sure what sort of protection people are up in arms about.

    The precautions already in place are good ones. However I think the church leadership should also be strongly encouraging Jordan to enter intensive therapy for his sexual deviancies. I do not think they should be *requiring* it, because that would be legalistic and controlling just as it has been legalistic and controlling for them to attempt to require Karen to work on their time table for the annulment. But I do think they should be encouraging him to pursue appropriate therapy. Once a week therapy for a few months with a therapist who does not specialize in sexual deviancies is not appropriate therapy.

  14. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

    Dear Texas Truthsayer:

    It took TVC three months to tell its covenant members that Jordan was a pedophile and about these arrangements. How come I have a LOT of doubt about how TVC is handling this?

    Signed, Skeptical Ex-Lawyer from Texas

  15. And, it looks like the TVC defenders are showing up. I’m not the Deebs, but I think you might want to read the last week’s worth of posts, because, as my Twitter profile says, I don’t suffer fools gladly.

  16. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    Yes, TVC treated Karen abominably, but the FOCUS needs to be on victims. ALL victims. TVC encouraged people to “love on” JR and members probably exposed their children to him.

    “TVC encouraged people to ‘love on’ JR” and JR in turn “loved on” their kids.

    JMJ/Christian Monist has mentioned as asides that he knew of one church with a pedo-pastor that was general knowledge in the church’s Inner Ring; Church Lady mothers would steer new members with kids to the pedo-pastor so he’d rape THEIR kids instead of Mine.

  17. So waiting until the investigation was complete before making private business public is a bad thing? Gotcha. Personally, I’m glad they waited for something official before letting people know. Also, nowhere does it say that their precautions were not already in place BEFORE members were notified of specifics. That’s speculation on your part. If they were already working to protect children, where is the harm? I care about my children being safe. If they were made safe without my knowledge why should that matter so long as their safety was guaranteed by the procedures put in place? Without formal legal charges being pursued by the DPD and FBI, I’m still not sure why it’s the publics’ business so long as the children are fully protected.

  18. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’m not sure what sort of protection people are up in arms about. TVC is doing what they can and, as of their apology email to the church, committed to having an outside agency come and inspect the safety precautions in place and suggest others

    That is a nice try. How long was Jordan back at The Village before the SIM report? Are the ELDERS so weak and incompetent that they could not order Jordan to self-isolate for the good of the rest of the church until he could be cleared? After all, they are the Spiritual Authorities who must be obeyed. If I were suspected of such, I would self-isolate so that no children would be harmed due to my lapse of self-control. That is assuming guilt. Assuming innocence at that point, then I would still have self-isolated knowing that I was not contributing to a possibly big issue in the church.

    The Village ELDERS appear to be clownishly making it up as they go along, and people are defending it. Amazing.

    You have no idea how ridiculous this line of argumentation looks to people on the outside.

  19. Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character? They heard you, sought outside counsel, reexamined their covenant and made apologies and changes. Had they not done that, you’d paint them as wicked and unbending. They confess and repent, owning up to mishandling, and you don’t like their wording or it’s all just spin. It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.

  20. They may have protections in place to protect the children connected with their programs but it is sadly apparent they did not have and may still lack protocols for dealing with abusers in their midst. When ever a church takes matters of abuse into their own hands w/o involving the legal authorities first, it is a huge error. Taking pleasure in viewing other’s defilement of children is not any different than being the one doing the abuse – legally and morally. Jesus taught that just looking on a woman with lust the same as committing adultery. How much more so when it is a perverted lust for children?

  21. The flaw with waiting to tell members is this, children might be protected at the church building but if a kindhearted family invites Jordan for a meal, they have no idea what they just exposed their kids to. This is how it was in SGM,a lot of the molestation happened off church grounds, so in the church’s legal eyes they have covered their behinds but kids aren’t safe.

  22. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    you don’t like their wording

    I’m not discussing the rest of it (how they handled Jordan, what they should be doing now, etc), but my problem with their apology is not about their wording. The content of their apology is “we’re sorry for how we said what we did, but we still believe what we did was correct”.

    Forcing a woman to stay married to a pedophile and assuming they are the final say over her marriage (including finances) is horrible doctrine and they need to repent of this. Saying “well, we said it badly” is NOT an apology and not an issue of wording.

  23. Texas T is not telling the truth about lots of things in this story. From Amy Smith’s blog about Karen’s story there is this threat that The Village Church gave to the missionary organization SIM, that Karen had served with:

    “I had a new sending church in place and a job description approved by SIM field leadership prior to arriving at SIM USA headquarters in Charlotte for meetings beginning March 10th. There I was informed that The Village Church had threatened that if SIM kept me on active status, they would consider it a breach of the Partnership Agreement between SIM and TVC and TVC could no longer partner with SIM. This had significant implications, because there are several other SIM missionaries who are supported by The Village Church. As a result, SIM decided that I would not resume work on behalf of my team from Dallas after all. – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/#sthash.gldzTUxB.dpuf

  24. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’m not sure what sort of protection people are up in arms about. TVC is doing what they can and, as of their apology email to the church, committed to having an outside agency come and inspect the safety precautions in place and suggest others
    That is a nice try. How long was Jordan back at The Village before the SIM report? Are the ELDERS so weak and incompetent that they could not order Jordan to self-isolate for the good of the rest of the church until he could be cleared? After all, they are the Spiritual Authorities who must be obeyed. If I were suspected of such, I would self-isolate so that no children would be harmed due to my lapse of self-control. That is assuming guilt. Assuming innocence at that point, then I would still have self-isolated knowing that I was not contributing to a possibly big issue in the church.
    The Village ELDERS appear to be clownishly making it up as they go along, and people are defending it. Amazing.
    You have no idea how ridiculous this line of argumentation looks to people on the outside.

    Nor do I care, since I don’t believe you have the first clue what you’re talking about. Their asking for people to love and welcome them in no way means they weren’t already taking precautions behind the scenes and seeking counsel on how to separate him so that, once the facts we on the table, they could act. It’s fine, though. I’m wasting my breath and have better things to do. My wife (who is Catholic), children and I love the Village Church and all they have brought into our lives. While no church is perfect, they have repeatedly shown their humility and willingness to walk through the mess of our lives with us. I’ve seen nothing in this situation that makes me feel differently.

    Peace and grace. I’m out.

  25. Jeff S wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    you don’t like their wording
    I’m not discussing the rest of it (how they handled Jordan, what they should be doing now, etc), but my problem with their apology is not about their wording. The content of their apology is “we’re sorry for how we said what we did, but we still believe what we did was correct”.
    Forcing a woman to stay married to a pedophile and assuming they are the final say over her marriage (including finances) is horrible doctrine and they need to repent of this. Saying “well, we said it badly” is NOT an apology and not an issue of wording.

    It is if NONE of those things were their intention. These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

  26. Awake wrote:

    The flaw with waiting to tell members is this, children might be protected at the church building but if a kindhearted family invites Jordan for a meal, they have no idea what they just exposed their kids to. This is how it was in SGM,a lot of the molestation happened off church grounds, so in the church’s legal eyes they have covered their behinds but kids aren’t safe.

    One would think that, if Jordan was being escorted, the escort could privately discuss things with the family. However, now that it is public, that’s a moot point.

  27. Anne wrote:

    They may have protections in place to protect the children connected with their programs but it is sadly apparent they did not have and may still lack protocols for dealing with abusers in their midst. When ever a church takes matters of abuse into their own hands w/o involving the legal authorities first, it is a huge error. Taking pleasure in viewing other’s defilement of children is not any different than being the one doing the abuse – legally and morally. Jesus taught that just looking on a woman with lust the same as committing adultery. How much more so when it is a perverted lust for children?

    I agree with you, Anne. And they worked with DPD and FBI…and want Jordan in intensive counseling. But if charges were not filed with DPD or FBI, and they have taken precautions for children, what’s left? Remove him from fellowship? Is he somehow less deserving of grace that you are? Admittedly that grace does not come at the expense of safety, but if both can be seen to, is it not the very mission of the body to reach into the mess and help restore?

  28. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    TVC encouraged people to “love on” JR and members probably exposed their children to him. Has he harmed children at TVC? The possibility is horrifying and THOSE are the victims that need help the most.

    Elizabeth, you are right. The chances are great that he has recently molested children, both at TVC and in East Asia. The path from viewing pornography to acting on one’s impulses is well documented and established. As with any addiction, it takes more and more to achieve the chemical/emotional thrill (i.e., high) initially produced through the illicit viewing. Compound that with a history of both being abused and abusing (even as a child) and the alarm bells are screaming.

    As I said earlier this week, TVC is NOT equipped to handle this situation through their “counsleors.” Unfortunately, they seem to hold to the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors’ (formerly Nouthetic) belief that this is only a sin issue and should be addressed as such. YES, it is a sin issue, but it is SO MUCH MORE.

    I will not be surprised if/when child-victims start appearing, if they are allowed to do so. Once it is established that they are telling the truth, which should be done by a competent, certified specialist and not a church leader, then they too will need extensive counseling to help put back together their shattered lives.

    If I could suggest the TVC elders read two books, they would be:
    1. The Subtle Power of Spritual Abuse by David Johnson and Jeff van Vonderen (or, Toxic Faith by Stephen Arterburn), and;
    2. The Wounded Heart by Dan B. Allender

  29. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?

    The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.

    As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.

    The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
    “We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

  30. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    n. These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    Cut the baloney. We have a Prime Directive at this site which means you treat victims with care and respect. It appears TVC does not train their people to show love and compassion in an effective way.

    BTW-didn’t you proclaim grace and peace and say you were out?

  31. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Village Church Dallas Northway Campus

    If Jordan Root was really repentant at the Acts 29 Village Church, he would be helping Law Enforcement right now to break up the pedo rings that produced the kid porn he was viewing. Instead he is staying sheltered in the mega church

  32. mirele wrote:

    And, it looks like the TVC defenders are showing up. I’m not the Deebs, but I think you might want to read the last week’s worth of posts, because, as my Twitter profile says, I don’t suffer fools gladly

    amen

  33. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    want Jordan in intensive counseling.

    is this the church counselor? How many hours a week was the church counselor meeting with Jordan to provide *intensive* counseling? Maybe you could find out for us…

  34. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
    The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
    As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
    The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
    “We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

    There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.

  35. Texas Truthsayer These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    That’s a pompous remark to make. This woman has been through how much? Had a church leadership that threatened her, disciplined her after she left before 6000 members, threatened the SIM international ministry and wanted to control her standing with them (and The Village Church threatened the funding of other missionaries too), she’s level-headed through it all…and this is your conclusion about her?

    Bless your little heart, you are a piece of work!

  36. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    It is if NONE of those things were their intention. These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    This isn’t a he said/she said thing. We have their words. We know what they said. This isn’t “twisted by raw emotion”.

    Take a moment and understand this conversation:

    “I’m annulling my marriage from my pedophile husband”
    “We are placing you under church discipline”.

    That’s how it went down. We have the documents. This sequence of events is admitted to in TVC’s own letter. There is no twisting of words. This is not an “emotional woman” issue.

    This is an act of horrible cruelty by TVC, and the only true repentance is “we were wrong to place Karen under church discipline for annulling her marriage”.

  37. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
    The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
    As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
    The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
    “We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

    There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.

    So far that one party [Karen] has far more credibility than The Village Church.

  38. dee wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    want Jordan in intensive counseling.
    is this the church counselor? How many hours a week was the church counselor meeting with Jordan to provide *intensive* counseling? Maybe you could find out for us…

    I would like to know but am not sure I have a source for that info. However, I CAN tell you that when I discussed a family member’s need for help with a bi-polar disorder, they provided me referrals to both counselors and psychiatrists…as well as psychiatric hospital information if more in-depth help was needed. I have never known them to shy away from psychiatric help for anyone…just as they wouldn’t tell someone with a physical wound to just pray about it or something. They believe common grace comes through medicine.

  39. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Michaela wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
    The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
    As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
    The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
    “We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”
    There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.
    So far that one party [Karen] has far more credibility than The Village Church.

    In your opinion, sure. That’s fine. Although, unless you know her personally, or the TVC elders personally, I don’t know why that would be the case. It seems illogical.

  40. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.

    “just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.”
    TVC is showing a pattern of blame shifting and disparaging alot of people in this fiasco. Another earlier “press release” from TVC said that they had consulted with G.R.A.C.E and got their approval on the way the church handled pedos in the church. then they sent out a release saying that they did an internal look at how they handled the root thing and they were assured they did handle this right. now they are saying they will consult outside agency to make sure their policies are correct. i call B.S. TVC plan: slander everyone else and also imply that they were approving TVC policy.

  41. Regarding Texas Truthsayer:

    Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?

    In political campaigns from 40 years ago, a “Truth Squad” was a team of Party spinmeisters on staff who would attempt to dominate the media with Spin for their candidate, trying to pre-empt the news media exposure and pre-emptively discredit the other guy’s spinmiesters. They would also get on the other guy’s media to spread confusion and distrust among his supporters.

  42. Jeff S wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    It is if NONE of those things were their intention. These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.
    This isn’t a he said/she said thing. We have their words. We know what they said. This isn’t “twisted by raw emotion”.
    Take a moment and understand this conversation:
    “I’m annulling my marriage from my pedophile husband”
    “We are placing you under church discipline”.
    That’s how it went down. We have the documents. This sequence of events is admitted to in TVC’s own letter. There is no twisting of words. This is not an “emotional woman” issue.
    This is an act of horrible cruelty by TVC, and the only true repentance is “we were wrong to place Karen under church discipline for annulling her marriage”.

    Not blaming anything on her emotion. Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly. And, if you read my comments elsewhere, you’ll find I was someone hoping they would let it go. And they did.

  43. sam wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.
    “just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.”
    TVC is showing a pattern of blame shifting and disparaging alot of people in this fiasco. Another earlier “press release” from TVC said that they had consulted with G.R.A.C.E and got their approval on the way the church handled pedos in the church. then they sent out a release saying that they did an internal look at how they handled the root thing and they were assured they did handle this right. now they are saying they will consult outside agency to make sure their policies are correct. i call B.S. TVC plan: slander everyone else and also imply that they were approving TVC policy.

    Sure, okay. I see how it might look that way from outside. I don’t believe that to be the case, though. It would go wholly against character I’ve witnessed first hand for years. Although, I admit, there’s always a first time for someone to mishandle something.

  44. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Although, unless you know her personally, or the TVC elders personally, I don’t know why that would be the case. It seems illogical.

    Because women being disciplined for leaving bad men who are held in good standing by the church is an oft repeated story that is systemic in the evangelical church.

  45. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly.

    First, “slow down” was not an appropriate and loving message to a victim here.

    Second, you are suggesting they disciplined her for not “slowing down”? Is annulling a marriage to a pedophile a sin equal to the “sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans” that Paul finds worth of church discipline?

  46. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    they have repeatedly shown their humility and willingness to walk through the mess of our lives with us. I’ve seen nothing in this situation that makes me feel differently.
    Peace and grace. I’m out.

    ***PUKE**** interesting tho~ the kind of people that support Patriarchal Authoritarian churches are usually just like them

  47. Texas Truthsayers’ story is not adding up. Why is he privy to all of this information about The Village Church when according to his post the other day he and his wife are attenders, not members? According to The Village Church the emails only went out to members.


    I’ve attended TVC in Flower Mound for just over three years and it’s very sad to see how people outside our community are stretching truth and making assumptions about this sad situation. I’ve read all the correspondence and understand where both parties are coming from.

    It’s clear from all that I’ve read in these comments that there will be no changing minds. Logic will not sway. Truth will not will out. The witch hunt is on and no one wants to extinguish their torch. That’s fine. I’m not going to address covenant membership or the pros and cons. As my wife is Catholic, we have never made the leap into covenant membership. She attends TVC weekly (as do our children) but was uncertain if membership would require rebaptism, so we’ve been content to attend regularly and not make things official until we move closer to the Flower Mound campus. So, as we aren’t covenant members, it would be disingenuous to discuss something I have no personal experience with…and would be hypocritical, since the problem I have with most of your arguments is that you know neither the players nor the system.”

  48. i thought you were peace and outa here, i will throw this at the door that you slam behind you

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action

    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing. WE ARE TRYING TO CARE FOR HER and she wont let us.
    Is Jordans repentance leading him to work with LE FBI to turn in the producers of the pics he was watching? that is true humility and repentance which i think you know nothing of. the biggest offense in all of this is that you have the nerve to say you and your church are representing the Lord Jesus Christ in all this sin of yours

  49. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    TVC put Karen in church discipline AFTER she resigned concerning the annulment. They did NOT put Jordon, the confessed child pornagraphy user, in church discipline for signing the annulment they were so against at the time.

    We already know what sort of people we are dealing with at TVC. Good is evil and evil is good type of leaders.

  50. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Sure, okay. I see how it might look that way from outside. I don’t believe that to be the case, though. It would go wholly against character I’ve witnessed first hand for years. Although, I admit, there’s always a first time for someone to mishandle something.

    If you’ve read Amy Smith’s blog you will see plenty of other stories of people who have been abused by the pastors/elders at The Village Church. What they did to Karen isn’t a *first time to mishandle something*. It’s a pervasive pattern.

  51. Bill M wrote:

    I was told in grade school not to make fun of someone’s name but isn’t your a little pretentious?

    We Texans do tend to think too much of ourselves sometimes. 🙂

  52. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Remove him from fellowship? Is he somehow less deserving of grace that you are? Admittedly that grace does not come at the expense of safety, but if both can be seen to, is it not the very mission of the body to reach

    Translation: ALL pedos are welcome here! no true repentance or counseling needed, we will even screw your victims if they insult you

  53. There are many issues with their non-apology which I’m sure will be brought up here on future posts.
    I believe the reason that SNAP will be protesting is to bring attention to this matter to the people attending who have not heard about it. Since TVC has many new visitors each week and many members who don’t attend regularly, it is very possible many people do not know what has gone on and how badly TVC mishandled a predator in their midst.
    The thing that is most upsetting is that they sent emails to members, and to Jordan Root’s home group specifically, telling them not to talk about his having to be brought back from Asia, telling them to not ask him why he was forced to return, and to “love on him” and to welcome him into their homes. They did not alert anyone about his confessed sin until three months after he returned and they were forced to because word had gotten out…if some people had not finally spoken up, would they ever have come clean?!

    Maybe some people do not know how the Home Groups are handled at TVC. They are setup by physical region, not by “families with kids” or “empty-nesters” or anything like that. So JR could be in a home group with people with kids, in fact it’s very, very likely, don’t think because he was a young man without kids that the people in his home group would also not have kids. So he was still allowed to attend his home group for three months without the home group and the families in it being told he was a confessed pedophile! And they were in fact encouraged to pursue further contact with him in order to “love on him”. And many, many people who attend home groups are not MEMBERS of TVC, I know this for a FACT. So people who had not agree to sign their rights away to TVC via their unbiblical membership covenant could have had their children exposed to Jordan Root during the three months before TVC admitted JR’s specific sin.

    How TVC handled Karen is horrible and an issue that needs to be addressed.
    But the greater issue, and I think what Karen and SNAP are most concerned about, is that TVC handled a pedophile all wrong.
    The mindset and beliefs that TVC has shown are the reason people don’t trust Christians, they don’t want to be a Christian when they see Christians who are so much more concerned with protecting the pedophile than they are with protecting innocent children.
    When you are dealing with sexual predators and child abusers of any kind it is not the time to be more concerned with showing forgiveness and grace to the predator, (Who are going to lie to you, pretend to repent, etc. to continue to be in the easiest place to abuse kids), than you are with protecting kids.
    You have one shot to protect the kids, one shot at not letting them be screwed up and damaged for the rest of their lives. To put Jordan first, and the children last, is disgusting. There is absolutely time for forgiveness and grace, after you have exhausted every possible effort to protect the kids first. If you aid and protect at pedophile you are helping them commit their crimes, you are helping them scar these kids for life, you are sinning!!!
    TVC arrogantly fawned all over themselves and their cheap grace/forgiveness of Jordan, trying in their Christianese correspondences to act like this is the opportunity to show God’s mercy and that was paramount. It should be time to fall all over themselves to find the kids in the child pornography that Jordan watched and focus on healing them. If God forgives Jordan and he is truly repentant and saved then that will show itself in God’s time and in God’s way, on this side of heaven we have to protect our kids from evil and not sit by and do nothing – and explain our doing nothing by saying “God’s in control”.
    I agree with Bonheoffer, when you do nothing about evil, you are complicit in it. On this side of heaven we are to fight it at every opportunity, first in ourselves but also, and always, in others when they are a threat to children!

  54. mirele wrote:

    It took TVC three months to tell its covenant members that Jordan was a pedophile and about these arrangements. How come I have a LOT of doubt about how TVC is handling this?

    That is right. They withheld that information from their pew peons until Karen went public. Wonder how long they would have protected HIS reputation because he said “I repent” if Karen had not gone public?

  55. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayers’ story is not adding up. Why is he privy to all of this information about The Village Church when according to his post the other day he and his wife are attenders, not members? According to The Village Church the emails only went out to members.

    I say “Truth Squad” — Plausibly-Deniable Independent Spokeshole.

  56. Funny how nobody ever heard of “Texas Truthsayer” before this.

    Oh, and have you ever heard the term “Truth — WHOSE Truth(TM)?”

  57. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
    The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
    As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
    The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
    “We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

    There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.

    According to your own posts here you and your wife are attenders, NOT members at The Village Church. According to The Village Church only their members get these emails. As a non-member who is supposedly out of the loop according to The Village Church’s rules, how precisely are you getting all of your information?

    Why do you claim to know more about the facts of this case than the person who lived it [Karen]?

  58. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Regarding Texas Truthsayer:
    Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?
    In political campaigns from 40 years ago, a “Truth Squad” was a team of Party spinmeisters on staff who would attempt to dominate the media with Spin for their candidate, trying to pre-empt the news media exposure and pre-emptively discredit the other guy’s spinmiesters. They would also get on the other guy’s media to spread confusion and distrust among his supporters.

    since it is obvious that TVC is not actually a church but instead a business based on the latest business models, i was wondering how much the fine gentleman from texas is getting paid today for his fine work 🙂

  59. Lydia wrote:

    TVC put Karen in church discipline AFTER she resigned concerning the annulment. They did NOT put Jordon, the confessed child pornagraphy user, in church discipline for signing the annulment they were so against at the time.

    Lydia, sadly, that is modus operandi for many churches, not just TVC (as most everyone here knows). I left a church nearly two years ago and shortly thereafter, it put a woman under “church discipline” for separating her finances/pursuing a divorce from her husband…after he had left her for another woman! He was not put under discipline because he was no longer a member, she was because she ‘pursued’ (in the leaders’ minds) a divorce even though she was trying to protect her finances and their daughter.

    Galling is not an apt enough description.

  60. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    That, sir or madam, is a vile and wicked thing to say. Are you by chance one of the ELDERS? Because you certainly sound like them.

  61. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.

    If I have learned one thing with that movement it is that there is no such thing as “proof” for a YRR. People are able to read, see long time patterns of behavior and teaching and come to conclusions based on plenty of that sort of evidence. The other thing is they always try to blacken the victims reputation so people won’t believe them. They think with their big numbers and stage power, people will believe them. And they are right when it comes to their loyal followers who drank the kool aid.

    I have been around YRR guys for the last 15 years and they all yell, proof, proof! What they really mean is the leaders have to admit to specifics which won’t happen. See Driscoll and Mahaney for starters. Both those sagas had the loyalists coming out of the woodwork.

    It is all hierarchical. The followers are told what to think and how to think. They don’t know any other way.

  62. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    That, sir or madam, is a vile and wicked thing to say. Are you by chance one of the ELDERS? Because you certainly sound like them.

    Oh no, Gram3, according to his own posts the other day he and his wife are attenders, not even members. That begs the question: Where does he get all of his information from because according to The Village Church it only went out to members!

  63. If a business in the real world of not TVC land were to do anything like the way TVC handled this, there would be a federal investigation of the business. They keep saying that the roots were not employed by them but actually they have been employers of the Roots, they didnt pay their whole salary but they paid part in agreement with SIMs oh the labor laws of the US that they have broken! Maybe thats why groups like this keep screaming seperation of church and state, maybe it has nothing to do with Jesus at all. Jesus who paid his taxes and told people to pray in their closets instead of on the public streets. would also love to see the racial makeup of the followers of Matt Chandler. most pple in businesses like ‘we sell jesus, lowest price in town’ think Jesus is also a white proffessional man come to save the millionares of america and give them more money.

  64. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Not blaming anything on her emotion. Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly.

    You contradict yourself which makes it appear that you do not actually believe one of the things you are so forcefully asserting. The second sentence is pure BS. They were no more concerned about her recovery than the man in the moon. Speaking of which they behaved like lunatics, and *that* is why things “went badly.” Talk about using the passive voice! The ELDERS created this entire stinking GooGoo cluster because they are arrogant fools who let themselves get carried away with their own importance.

  65. i wouldnt even bother, except that other people who read here may not know what TVC has stated, in writing! Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Not blaming anything on her emotion. Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly

    so here is my “UN-SPIN” response

    Feb 11, 2015 4:26 PM
    from: Matt Younger (myounger@thevillagechurch.net)
    to: Karen Root
    cc Richard Brindley; pastor steve hardin

    “In addition, should you not immediately revoke the petition for annulment, we would sadly move forward and formally discipline you as a member of the church.”
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html?m=1

    Hey Texas, if you guys want to lie you should try and remember your church put it in writing. Probably wont be doing that anymore, i shudder to think that they will be coercing people in person from now on so there is no way to challenge their open lies. Which does actually refer to what you called men of great charector. you need a raise, (hope your not doing all this pro-bono)

  66. Jeff S wrote:

    Jeff S on Fri May 29, 2015 at 02:47 PM said:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Although, unless you know her personally, or the TVC elders personally, I don’t know why that would be the case. It seems illogical.
    Because women being disciplined for leaving bad men who are held in good standing by the church is an oft repeated story that is systemic in the evangelical church

    YUP

  67. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    While no church is perfect, they have repeatedly shown their humility and willingness to walk through the mess of our lives with us. I’ve seen nothing in this situation that makes me feel differently.

    Peace and grace. I’m out.

    No church is perfect, so therefore we don’t need to acknowledge the blood all over the crime scene. The wallpaper and carpet is really a delightful color aside from that.

    They have repeatedly shown non-humility if the word humility has any meaning. Conveniently, words take whatever meaning is necessary in PR and propaganda.

    Somehow I doubt that you intend to leave. Sheesh, I think you guys are all the same guy with different screennames.

  68. @ sam:

    Thank you Sam. It is one reason I won’t speak with these types in person. It all has to be in writing. They are unethical and untrustworthy because it is all about the brand.

  69. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    you’ll find I was someone hoping they would let it go. And they did.

    Actually, it is more accurate to say that she was pried out of their tight little clutches by the angry people who are decent and can think. This includes but is not limited to Christians who know what Jesus looks like.

  70. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    reexamined their covenant and made apologies

    An apology is not a confession and admission of wrongdoing. The church should confess its sin and seek forgiveness, making restitution as necessary. That’s my understanding of biblical teaching.

  71. sam wrote:

    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing. WE ARE TRYING TO CARE FOR HER and she wont let us.
    Is Jordans repentance leading him to work with LE FBI to turn in the producers of the pics he was watching? that is true humility and repentance which i think you know nothing of. the biggest offense in all of this is that you have the nerve to say you and your church are representing the Lord Jesus Christ in all this sin of yours

    This. If Jordan’s repentant, he could tell where and how he got the pictures from. He could bust up a child porn ring. He could save children from predators. How about it?

  72. Dallasite wrote:

    There are many issues with their non-apology which I’m sure will be brought up here on future posts.
    I believe the reason that SNAP will be protesting is to bring attention to this matter to the people attending who have not heard about it. Since TVC has many new visitors each week and many members who don’t attend regularly, it is very possible many people do not know what has gone on and how badly TVC mishandled a predator in their midst.
    The thing that is most upsetting is that they sent emails to members, and to Jordan Root’s home group specifically, telling them not to talk about his having to be brought back from Asia, telling them to not ask him why he was forced to return, and to “love on him” and to welcome him into their homes. They did not alert anyone about his confessed sin until three months after he returned and they were forced to because word had gotten out…if some people had not finally spoken up, would they ever have come clean?!
    Maybe some people do not know how the Home Groups are handled at TVC. They are setup by physical region, not by “families with kids” or “empty-nesters” or anything like that. So JR could be in a home group with people with kids, in fact it’s very, very likely, don’t think because he was a young man without kids that the people in his home group would also not have kids. So he was still allowed to attend his home group for three months without the home group and the families in it being told he was a confessed pedophile! And they were in fact encouraged to pursue further contact with him in order to “love on him”. And many, many people who attend home groups are not MEMBERS of TVC, I know this for a FACT. So people who had not agree to sign their rights away to TVC via their unbiblical membership covenant could have had their children exposed to Jordan Root during the three months before TVC admitted JR’s specific sin.
    How TVC handled Karen is horrible and an issue that needs to be addressed.
    But the greater issue, and I think what Karen and SNAP are most concerned about, is that TVC handled a pedophile all wrong.
    The mindset and beliefs that TVC has shown are the reason people don’t trust Christians, they don’t want to be a Christian when they see Christians who are so much more concerned with protecting the pedophile than they are with protecting innocent children.
    When you are dealing with sexual predators and child abusers of any kind it is not the time to be more concerned with showing forgiveness and grace to the predator, (Who are going to lie to you, pretend to repent, etc. to continue to be in the easiest place to abuse kids), than you are with protecting kids.
    You have one shot to protect the kids, one shot at not letting them be screwed up and damaged for the rest of their lives. To put Jordan first, and the children last, is disgusting. There is absolutely time for forgiveness and grace, after you have exhausted every possible effort to protect the kids first. If you aid and protect at pedophile you are helping them commit their crimes, you are helping them scar these kids for life, you are sinning!!!
    TVC arrogantly fawned all over themselves and their cheap grace/forgiveness of Jordan, trying in their Christianese correspondences to act like this is the opportunity to show God’s mercy and that was paramount. It should be time to fall all over themselves to find the kids in the child pornography that Jordan watched and focus on healing them. If God forgives Jordan and he is truly repentant and saved then that will show itself in God’s time and in God’s way, on this side of heaven we have to protect our kids from evil and not sit by and do nothing – and explain our doing nothing by saying “God’s in control”.
    I agree with Bonheoffer, when you do nothing about evil, you are complicit in it. On this side of heaven we are to fight it at every opportunity, first in ourselves but also, and always, in others when they are a threat to children!

    I wish this was posted all over the web, including @Acts 29 network and TVC members sites.

  73. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

    The appropriate “lockdown” for Jordan Root is prison

  74. We need less people willing to spin the truth and say they are “truthsayers” and more Christians willing to stand up as Jesus did and say “leave her alone” when so called churches persecute those who seek to serve their Lord Jesus Christ by actually exposing lies. Jordan Root, if you read this, please follow through on the recommendations SIM gave for professional counseling. If you are truly repentant I believe you will do the hard work, whether or not TVC eldership agrees with the process.

  75. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character? They heard you, sought outside counsel, reexamined their covenant and made apologies and changes. Had they not done that, you’d paint them as wicked and unbending. They confess and repent, owning up to mishandling, and you don’t like their wording or it’s all just spin. It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.

    Please please please for the love of God, stop throwing around the term grace as if you and TVC are the holders and demonstrators of all things grace.

  76. sam wrote:

    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing.

    Aren’t you surprised he didn’t manage to label her “unstable” as well? That’s another common one.

  77. Bill M wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Spokeshole

    In this whole miserable story I’ll remember that term. Also Karen’s courage and fortitude.

    Not original to me. I first heard it on AM radio, from KFI’s afternoon drive-time guys.

  78. Melissa wrote:

    The appropriate “lockdown” for Jordan Root is prison

    Sadly, Melissa, that may not happen. There was a church planter in my area who confessed last summer to molesting three girls – one of his daughters, one of his nieces and one of his sisters-in-law (wife’s sister) – 11 or 12 years ago. It came out when his daughter told his wife on her 18th birthday. I was brought in to help the church plant. I made sure the authorities in NC were called, the authorities in the state where his wife and five other children fled, and the state in which the offences occurred. I also called the local SBC seminary and attempted to speak with the professor the man ‘confessed’ to; the professor never called me back.

    Long story made short – NC and the wife’s current state said they couldn’t pursue the case because the offenses occurred in the third state. THAT state is one of the most liberal in the union, and he is a native; they investigated. They admitted that they found evidence that he molested those girls when they were underage but they chose not to prosecute. THEREFORE, he is walking free.

    I closed the church plant, which mostly dried up anyway. Sadly, several people chose to keep having him lead Bible “studies” even after I presented all the evidence to them.

  79. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    sam wrote:

    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing.

    Aren’t you surprised he didn’t manage to label her “unstable” as well? That’s another common one.

    The Victorian term is “Hysteria”, of which the cure-all was forced Hysterectomy.

  80. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    sam wrote:

    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing.

    Aren’t you surprised he didn’t manage to label her “unstable” as well? That’s another common one.

    Or, “she’s been so wounded and is carrying baggage from that.” Which means we can safely ignore her mind or her person while cooing concern about her.

  81. @ Melissa:
    I didn’t want to feed the creature from under the bridge but the statement you responded to reminds me of my last meeting with “leadership” at my former church.

    For each and every agreed course of action the pastor pursued a minimalistic approach to building trust. Instead of going above and beyond it was always massively short, more the response that builds suspicion rather than trust. Not even trying to meet the barest essentials of what is reasonable.

    The last response I remember was “there is no pleasing you”. So my concerns were easily dismissed, move along, it was just my character flaw. Half the congregation left within the year, all probably just flawed people.

  82. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Long story made short – NC and the wife’s current state said they couldn’t pursue the case because the offenses occurred in the third state. THAT state is one of the most liberal in the union, and he is a native; they investigated. They admitted that they found evidence that he molested those girls when they were underage but they chose not to prosecute. THEREFORE, he is walking free

    Jordans participation in many many child trafficking organizations makes me think that he purposely chose victims that were poor, trafficked, and from other countries just so they wouldnt be testifying against him at any time in the future. He shows so much calculation that it would be very unlikely that children at TVC havent been abused.
    an earlier page here on wartburg posted his write up from a youth orginazation praising him:
    “Pimps? Prostitutes? Most Christians want nothing to do with them. But for junior Jordan Root these “untouchables of our time” are his calling.”

  83. for victims sakes i would like to repost this if its ok:

    “… Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007)

    …substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years Cedarville, OH,

    Dallas Theological Seminary/Dallas

    Now, take a look his activities involving children during this period of time.
    • Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
    • Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
    • In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
    • ​ Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
    • Private Children’s Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
    • Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
    • Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
    • A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX

    Unpaid:
    • Informal Children’s Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
    • Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
    • Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Dallas, TX
    • A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in Dallas, TX
    • He enrolls in DTS with the intent to get a counseling degree with a specialty in children.

    Manipulation of thought observed in hindsight

    Karen makes an important observation about his work with children. He was confronted about spending time alone with children and, on one occasion, was told by an adult that she was uncomfortable with the way he was sitting with and touching a child. He acted shocked and remorseful that his behavior would come off that way. He often would speak out against stereotyping by gender. He believed that people were biased against men spending time with children.”
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/25/part-1-jordan-root-is-a-confessed-internet-child-sex-abuser-should-the-village-church-trust-him/

  84. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    you’ll find I was someone hoping they would let it go. And they did.

    Funny timing that they just happen to let it go only a few days after sending an 8 page email to 6000 members digging their heels in and shaming Karen.

  85. @ Burwell Stark:
    The child pornography issue is a sufficient basis to call him a sex offender. People who view child pornography on their computers are chargeable as sex offenders under the law.

  86. Dallasite wrote:

    When you are dealing with sexual predators and child abusers of any kind it is not the time to be more concerned with showing forgiveness and grace to the predator, (Who are going to lie to you, pretend to repent, etc. to continue to be in the easiest place to abuse kids), than you are with protecting kids.

    This is what VERY few leaders in churches understand and they don’t seem to be willing to be educated about the subject. They’d rather speak at conferences, and write books, and be ever so popular instead of “really caring” for the members (the least of these) that they claim to be caring for with their long-winded church membership (covenant) contracts.

  87. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.

  88. Amy Smith wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    you’ll find I was someone hoping they would let it go. And they did.

    Funny timing that they just happen to let it go only a few days after sending an 8 page email to 6000 members digging their heels in and shaming Karen.

    Spot on, Amy.

  89. IMO, Wade Burleson had it right in both his articles. TVC needed to apologize and acknowledge Karen’s resignation of membership and we need to forgive in light of that apology and monitor the situation from here. We will find out in the coming weeks whether TVC is another SGM or Mars Hill. Accept their apology. Trust but verify. Other stories will come out if they are there. Some may be flimsy, others may have substance. Monitor, monitor, monitor. That’s what a good watchblog can do. Parsing apologies endlessly, negatively broad-brushing whole segments of Christendom, speculative psychoanalysis of key parties or debating motives is counterproductive at best and damages one’s credibility at worst.

    There has to be a way of being civil toward each other which does not whitewash truth. Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

    I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

    “What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists, is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.” -RFK

    The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

  90. An Attorney wrote:

    The child pornography issue is a sufficient basis to call him a sex offender. People who view child pornography on their computers are chargeable as sex offenders under the law.

    Yes, but you of all here should know that the law doesn’t recognize self-confession without substantiation, especially in cases involving child pornography/molestation.

  91. Eagle wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:

    No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.

    TT by his own posts here the other day is only an attender with his wife at The Village Church. So that begs the question: How did he get all of his information about Karen since The Village Church insists their policy is to ONLY send it out to members and NOT attenders?

  92. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character? They heard you, sought outside counsel, reexamined their covenant and made apologies and changes. Had they not done that, you’d paint them as wicked and unbending. They confess and repent, owning up to mishandling, and you don’t like their wording or it’s all just spin. It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.

    I have a highly attenuated BS meter, both because of my occupation as a teacher of law, my past as an attorney, and my present as a Certified Fraud Examiner. Both you and TVC are currently putting it into the red zone.

  93. js wrote:

    Accept their apology.

    I’m interested in doing this when they actually apologize for what they did, not how they phrased it.

  94. per a comment posted about the likely hood of children in Jordans home group, the poster was right on. jordans home group was not a mens only group, until after karen spoke up.
    “Regarding home group, I desired to return to the group we had been a part of since 2012 without fear of Jordan showing up. Prior to my return to the U.S., men from the home group had been encouraged to spend time with Jordan without being informed of the nature of what he had admitted to. Matt and Richard assured me that Jordan would be asked to start attending a men’s group so I could go back to my group. I was encouraged by this.”
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

  95. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    That was not an apology except for not succeeding in making Karen stay in her void marriage to Jordan. It constitutes another tort committed by the church against Karen, if read from a neutral point of view, as we attorneys are trained to do.

  96. for the sake of another spin TVC is using about how they arent authoritative or patriarchal~ UNSPIN:
    During this meeting there were some extremely troubling things said by both Richard and Matt. I was told that as Jordan’s wife, I would have a unique role in walking alongside him during this time. At one point, Matt Younger told me that 100 out of 100 times a couple is sitting on his couch, and one of them says “this is all his fault” and the other agrees, there is much more to the story. This stung, as it seemed that Matt was suggesting that I was partly responsible for Jordan’s fraud and perversion. I acknowledged to Matt that I knew I was not without sin in my marriage, but that I would not take responsibility for our return home and separation as it was caused by Jordan’s pedophilia and use of child pornography.

  97. Melissa wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

    The appropriate “lockdown” for Jordan Root is prison

    ^^^ THIS.

  98. An Attorney wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    …if read from a neutral point of view, as we attorneys are trained to do.

    And as the ironically-named Texas Truthsayer, with what appears to be his subtle cult indoctrination, is not.

  99. TVC’s controlling is astounding, its the Acts 29 network model of the gospel

    “I emailed Richard my proposed separation of finances (to be communicated with Jordan) the next day but did not hear back from him. I was finally able to speak with him on the phone Tuesday night, at which point I was told that the elders had decided that I was not to separate our finances after all, as that “felt too much like a step toward divorce” and they “could not approve any steps that would bring further separation to our marriage.” When I asked why the elders felt as though my choices about personal finances were within the scope of their authority, I was informed that “In a marriage separation, every aspect of your marriage is under the authority of the elders of the church.” That was a very eye-opening conversation for me. I was alarmed at the level of control the elders seemed to be attempting to exert over my life and decided to start asking questions.
    I called Matt Younger the next day (January 21st) and told him what Richard had said. Matt affirmed that this was indeed the position of the elders.”
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

  100. Amy Smith wrote:

    Funny timing that they just happen to let it go only a few days after sending an 8 page email to 6000 members digging their heels in and shaming Karen.

    So the next talking point will be, “Don’t you believe that God speaks to the men he has called to lead his church?” Or some variant of that. The focus must be shifted away from the actions of the ELDERS and on to the deficiencies of other people or their motives.

  101. the TVC apology is not in my opinion based on any repentance from TVC but instead a response to true things like:
    “There was never a mention of church discipline until after I had withdrawn my membership from the church. The Village Church does not have a legal right to discipline non-members, yet they have attempted to do so to me on multiple occasions.”
    Jesus said woe to ye lawyers in the bible, maybe He was talking to TVC type lawyers.

  102. js wrote:

    and we need to forgive in light of that apology and monitor the situation from here. We will find out in the coming weeks whether TVC is another SGM or Mars Hill. Accept their apology.

    Actually, no, the burden does not lie on me or on Karen. The burden lies squarely on the shoulders of the ELDERS who have acted arrogantly and presumptuously. Until they face those facts and acknowledge them and turn from their wicked doctrine and practice, we are not obligated to believe that a non-apology is a real apology much less evidence of repentance. They do not speak for God.

  103. js wrote:

    Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

    I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

  104. Dallasite wrote:

    Maybe some people do not know how the Home Groups are handled at TVC. They are setup by physical region, not by “families with kids” or “empty-nesters” or anything like that.

    That has been the set up I have seen from most Acts 29 and Sojourn (former Acts 29) churches.

  105. i expected TVC to lie and slander Karen, what i am looking into now though, is their arrogance that prompts them to slander other agencies also, agencies like SIM and G.R.A.C.E.
    here is what i have so far re ‘he said she said’ about SIM.

    He said(TVC et all) in their initial correspondence to members that they were working closely with SIM in this matter.
    she said(Karen and Watchkeep):
    “Notice that TVC avoids mentioning anything about the nature of Jordan’s sin. They also encourage people to reach out directly to Jordan without warning them of his pedophilic tendencies. This email went to many parents with children and was a major contention between TVC and SIM, who had been reminding The Village Church of their responsibility to inform people of the nature of Jordan’s confession since they released their report on February 9th. It is what prompted SIM to send their own communication on February 25th (https://www.scribd.com/doc/265890317/SIM-director-of-personnel-letter) informing the same group of people of the outcome of their investigation. After more than two weeks of receiving many complaints via phone and email, TVC finally informed Covenant Members of the Dallas Campus on March 13th.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

    Another example is in regards to Jordan’s treatment. TVC dismissed recommendations from SIM that Jordan needed, at minimum, intensive therapy from someone who has experience working with these issues. I was told at one point that in-patient treatment had been recommended and that Jordan should attend a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting every day until he began that treatment. Instead, TVC had Jordan see Eric Bryant, a member of The Village Church who is a part of North Texas Christian Counseling. On his bio, Eric does not list experience treating pedophilia or sexual addiction. Jordan went to counseling once a week for the first couple of months after his return, at which point Eric felt he was doing well enough to begin going only once every other week instead. I am unsure as to whether or how often Jordan is currently going to counseling.

  106. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
    sam wrote:
    translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing.
    Aren’t you surprised he didn’t manage to label her “unstable” as well? That’s another common one.
    The Victorian term is “Hysteria”, of which the cure-all was forced Hysterectomy

    oh nooooo, didnt TexasTruthslayer just say they encouraged working with the medical community!!!!!!!

  107. js wrote:

    Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

    Please direct my attention to the part where they unequivocally repented for their false doctrine and their slander against Karen that resulted from that false doctrine. They have said nothing to warrant any faith that what they have said is anything more than PR damage control and risk management. This is how it looks when it’s done in the real world, and I don’t think men get holy just because they say they are Spiritual Authorities.

    Most of us do not believe in hierachies in the Kingdom, nor do we believe that the Bible says anything about Spiritual Authorities other than we should not have them. The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

  108. js wrote:

    The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

    That is deflection. The problem in this instance as well as Mars Hill and SGM is not extremism or polity or any such thing. It is men who have adopted a fundamentally anti-Christian worldview while claiming they represent Christ. Let’s talk about the matter at hand and the facts that we have.

  109. I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

    Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

  110. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:

    The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

    That is deflection. The problem in this instance as well as Mars Hill and SGM is not extremism or polity or any such thing. It is men who have adopted a fundamentally anti-Christian worldview while claiming they represent Christ. Let’s talk about the matter at hand and the facts that we have.

    In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

  111. js wrote:

    some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    How do you know this? Perhaps we call it like it is because we don’t have a vested interest in the System. Do you have an interest in the ClergyAuthority System that you wish to protect? A place of privilege that you wish to protect?

    The people here use sound reasoning and the actual Bible, while the P&P clown show uses invective without employing any reasoning or exegesis. Proof-texting and shaming is all they know because they are scribes and Pharisees, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof, as we used to say.

  112. js wrote:

    I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

    Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

  113. Burwell Stark wrote:

    Yes, but you of all here should know that the law doesn’t recognize self-confession without substantiation, especially in cases involving child pornography/molestation.

    Should we recognize self confession in terms of alerting parents and protecting kids? Would you really want to be in a home study group with someone who has confessed to watching children be molested while a professing Christian missionary? Would you wonder how he was looking at your kids?

    When did we become so blase’ about this issue? Is it because it is now the new cool sin in evangelicalism we can confer instant grace upon?

    When did we decide that it was really no big deal becasue it is out and now we have to love on him? I think if he were really repentent he would hate putting people in an awkward situation.

    It is perfectly ok to have boundaries wheh it comes to evil deeds confessed or not. I am wondering why more folks don’t get this? Especially pastors who are all over the place saying he deserves grace, too!. Their view of grace and mine is totally different. I prefer grace for the innocent ones, first.

    Jordon needs to be totally separated from children (his temptation) and in some sort of treatment program.

  114. js wrote:

    In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

    In my view, Matt Chandler is a purveyor of an anti-Christian System, and I have more than outlined why it is anti-Christian. That does not necessarily mean that he is not gravely deceived while still being a believer. What it does mean is that if he is wise, he will listen to people outside the System and repent of his false teaching. He will demonstrate the fruit of repentance and of Christlikeness by teaching what is taught in the Bible rather than what the System says.

  115. Michaela wrote:

    js wrote:

    I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

    Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

    I think JS wants cheap grace for the spiritual abusers.

  116. Burwell Stark wrote:

    THAT state is one of the most liberal in the union, and he is a native; they investigated. They admitted that they found evidence that he molested those girls when they were underage but they chose not to prosecute. THEREFORE, he is walking free.

    OK, this is off topic, but just because a state is “liberal” doesn’t mean they couldn’t prosecute. There may have been many other reasons why the state couldn’t prosecute, but “liberal” is not one of them. Remember, back in 2006, Arkansas (home of Josh Duggar) had a three year statute of limitations for child abuse. And nobody think Arkansas is “liberal.”

  117. Gram3 wrote:

    Please direct my attention to the part where they unequivocally repented for their false doctrine and their slander against Karen that resulted from that false doctrine. They have said nothing to warrant any faith that what they have said is anything more than PR damage control and risk management. This is how it looks when it’s done in the real world, and I don’t think men get holy just because they say they are Spiritual Authorities.
    Most of us do not believe in hierachies in the Kingdom, nor do we believe that the Bible says anything about Spiritual Authorities other than we should not have them. The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

    Churches like TVC use a twisting of scriptures that apostles wrote to ignore this:
    25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
    26 But ye shall not be so… Luke 22:25-26

    4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
    5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
    6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
    7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
    8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. Matthew 23:4-8

    If it dont line up with the Boss’s words, its twisted

  118. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:

    Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

    Please direct my attention to the part where they unequivocally repented for their false doctrine and their slander against Karen that resulted from that false doctrine. They have said nothing to warrant any faith that what they have said is anything more than PR damage control and risk management. This is how it looks when it’s done in the real world, and I don’t think men get holy just because they say they are Spiritual Authorities.

    Most of us do not believe in hierachies in the Kingdom, nor do we believe that the Bible says anything about Spiritual Authorities other than we should not have them. The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

    Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers? Is holding to their doctrine worthy of damnation? If you believe so, then I see somewhat where you are coming from. If not, then I don’t see how you can expect them to change their doctrine when they see it as in line with biblical teaching. I take their words as a legitimate apology to Karen, although I acknowledge that many here do not, that is a difference of opinion and Karen’s opinion really is the one that matters there anyway.

  119. Michaela wrote:

    Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

    That is an irrelevant fact because it runs counter to the narrative. You are just an emotional woman who does not want to be under authority. Oh, and you are carrying a lot of baggage from your previous experience, but we totally get that, sister. Come under our care, and you will find things are different here. We don’t exercise *that* kind of authority over you!

  120. sam wrote:

    If it dont line up with the Boss’s words, its twisted

    Exactly, but they have pushed Jesus under their care and said they can take it from here, thankyouverymuch.

  121. Lydia wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    js wrote:

    I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

    You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

    Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

    I think JS wants cheap grace for the spiritual abusers.

    No cheap grace here, which is evident in my first post a little while ago. Monitor, trust but verify. Just hesitant to live without grace. Wade Burleson had it right, IMO, that’s all I was saying.

  122. Gram3 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    I think JS wants cheap grace for the spiritual abusers.

    JS likes being at the top of the pyramid.

    Nice.

  123. js wrote:

    Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers? Is holding to their doctrine worthy of damnation?

    Was Arius a heretic? You really do want to make this about me and not the ELDERS who created this, don’t you?

  124. @ Lydia:

    Thank you for your comment. I have two replies:
    1. My quote was written in with a narrow scope – the legal definition of sex offender. Viewing it in any other light is taking it out of context.

    2. Please go back and read all of my comments over the past week. If I have appeared blase about child sex abuse, then I am horribly misrepresenting myself. Furthermore, I believe I made it clear the other day that Root’s act of viewing child pornography is actively contributing to the sexual exploitation, slavery and abuse of children around the world. In my opinion, he is culpable for everything done to those children, whether he is the one who physically abuse/raped/tortured them or not.

    Lastly, I believe he deserves grace and forgiveness, but that is not synonymous with overlooking the severity of his offenses and assisting those who have been abused by him. Nor does grace and forgiveness mean he should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

  125. js wrote:

    Just hesitant to live without grace.

    Where did the ELDERS demonstrate this grace toward Karen or the other women they dehumanize and the children they put at risk and the parents they kept in the dark at The Village? How many others have these ELDERS pushed under their care while they usurped the Holy Spirit and demeaned the Son of God so that they can be rulers over God’s people?

    Did you speak so forcefully about grace then? What does grace mean to you?

  126. js wrote:

    In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

    no one knows that but Matt Chandler and Jesus. i was expecting someone to go for the ‘your calling him unsaved’ retort. i under normal circumstances wouldnt even bother replying, but now that you mentioned it….

    Matt Chandler has never said he asked Jesus into his heart or was born again or filled with the Holy Spirit, didnt mention repenting of his sins, or asking Jesus to forgive them. perhaps he has said such things since, but in his autobiography he mentions none of that but instead his conversion (according to him): (i only wrote down the highlights of this video):

    “father pagan in every definition of the word
    father very abusive mother dismissive
    mom’s great rebellion was my dad (marrying him, she had baptist preacher dad)
    born into that world
    mom steadfast in faith, refused to leave my dad, probably should have, there was a lot of abuse in our home, probably every kind of abuse you could imagine…
    mom’s steadfast faith, which I did not like, because it kept me in the house with this man, I don’t know how else to say it.
    in high school guy shared the gospel with me.
    church to me was comical, mocks ‘I got joy in my heart’.
    guy preaches gospel, desperately wanting dad to love him but cant get there, angry, left.
    sitting outside eyes of my heart were enlightened.. almost immediately there was a, I dunno, shared gospel with people
    I am a believer didn’t know where to go. went to 1st baptist, started seeing little holes, wanted to see my dad saved. what am I asking god to do if its up to my dad, I know his choice.
    so I start going to church youth choir, council, didn’t want to go to school so went to jr college. job at pine dr christian as janitor. change of ballast. …here I am janitor, mopping floors, dr gets to know me, has accident goes to hosp, asks matt to share his testimony. go share test guy comes up after says , how would you like to be the youth pastor? didn’t know tradition, history, how people worked…did not have sight to see that that silly thing had life changing effect on people, wounded ppls souls. I needed to go, before fired I went away to school. baptist school, in west texas. liberal bent. there I started teaching little bible study…thought of going into law.. grace bible study, teaching every week, taking bible classes to learn what to teach. grew from couple hundred to couple thousand. 20yr old softmore teaching. sitting in class saying that’s not right.”

    from:
    matt chandler autobiography
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPyy2ycffY&index=4&list=PLu0d0UoIlnx-6b4xR8gbguejFlDSD3lNq

  127. We will stick you in a ‘home group’ and get you to sign away your responsibility to manage your own life and tell you what to do with your money and your marriage and then ‘discipline’ you if we feel like it because we said so.

    And people do this? Who are these people who agree to this? This is not christianity.

  128. @ mirele:

    You are correct, no one would think of AR as liberal. However, it is material to this specific case. Since the male in question was a “native” of that state (that’s the only clue I am willing to give) and since they have a liberal view of many laws, he was not prosecuted.

    By “liberal” I mean permissive, not on the political left.

  129. <<>>

    No, I really don’t. I just think we all can grow in our ability to discuss differences with love. My posts are one aspect of a big issue. Its not wrong to discuss what has been discussed here these last few days but mine was an attempt to get us to do some self-reflection in the midst of reflecting on the sins of others. That is worthwhile too, I believe.

  130. In the message from the Village elders to the members:

    Sometimes dark and difficult situations cause us to take a magnifying glass and look through the lens to see deeper than we normally can.

    How about just taking the blinders off?

    Regarding Covenant Membership, we have not changed our theological or philosophical convictions on our Membership Covenant, member care and church discipline

    This is the root from which the offenses arise, i.e. the oppression will continue.

  131. Michaela wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.
    TT by his own posts here the other day is only an attender with his wife at The Village Church. So that begs the question: How did he get all of his information about Karen since The Village Church insists their policy is to ONLY send it out to members and NOT attenders?

    I got it the same way you did…various links to all the emails that have been made public by blogs…including links on this very site. It was not sent to me. I read about it after the fact because a friend in Chicago posted a reply to an article like this one on Facebook. Just to clarify.

  132. I dont want anyone to think that i am attacking Matt Chandler, i am attacking a system that instead of some Pastor somewhere taking Matt under their wings and helping him to be discipled by JESUS and lovingly explaining the danger of the scripture
    ” Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1 Timothy 3:6″
    instead the patriarchal Acts 29 system made him into a million dollar per weekend preachin machine. and where is their support of him now? i think they are having intense meetings right now trying to figure out who his succesor will be, just like the mark driscoll case. Matt is just another casualty of a sinful system. Gram3’s comments here have shown that wisdom comes with elders that are actually elder and not from 30something charismatic preachers that can make $ for religious institutes.
    I dont want to stop speaking up until the whole system is known for what it is. then true christians can decide for themselves if they want to follow Jesus or as paul wrote:
    10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica… 2 Timothy 4:10

    The women and children and unsuspecting men that attend churches like this and think they are pleasing God deserve for someone to stand up and call it what it is.

  133. roebuck wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.

    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

  134. Burwell Stark wrote:

    1. My quote was written in with a narrow scope – the legal definition of sex offender. Viewing it in any other light is taking it out of context.

    Sorry. I was basing it on this response:

    Burwell Stark wrote:

    An Attorney wrote:

    The child pornography issue is a sufficient basis to call him a sex offender. People who view child pornography on their computers are chargeable as sex offenders under the law.

    Yes, but you of all here should know that the law doesn’t recognize self-confession without substantiation, especially in cases involving child pornography/molestation.

    This is almost like the convenient statute of limitations for child molestation at SGM. At this point, the law is not doing much good, is it?

    I think we are right to call him a sex offender and treat him as one even if the law cannot prosecute for lack of evidence that is easily hidden. Most offenders are never caught, btw. Just go into a room with 100 adults and ask them to anonymously write if they were ever molested (inappropriate touch counts) or groomed as children. You will be shocked.

    Jordon Root made a decision to be a “Christian” fraud. He used Christianity as a cover (Is he still?) and now he is being treated to cheap grace (and protection because they did not tell the congregation for 3 months) by spiritual abusers.

    My concern is the mantra that since law enforcement found no evidence (surprise, surprise!) we should shut up. That is what they did with SGM and the SoL. In the meantime, I want folks to keep those abused and molested children he was watching (while a Christian missionary!~) front and center in their thoughts on this issue.

  135. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:

    Just hesitant to live without grace.

    Where did the ELDERS demonstrate this grace toward Karen or the other women they dehumanize and the children they put at risk and the parents they kept in the dark at The Village? How many others have these ELDERS pushed under their care while they usurped the Holy Spirit and demeaned the Son of God so that they can be rulers over God’s people?

    Did you speak so forcefully about grace then? What does grace mean to you?

    Grace means in Jesus I have a Savior who lived a perfect life and died in my place and rose again so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.

    I believe Karen needs grace. She needs the apology of elders who sinned against her. She needs to go on in her life with God in freedom and find healing in a supportive church. Jordan Root needs grace, even as he should also face the full weight of whatever the law might deem right. He has done despicable things but is not beyond the reach of grace. Time will tell. I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

  136. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.

  137. js wrote:

    Its not wrong to discuss what has been discussed here these last few days but mine was an attempt to get us to do some self-reflection in the midst of reflecting on the sins of others. That is worthwhile too, I believe.

    Sorry, it is coming off like something the deflective sin sniffing CJ Mahaney would do.

  138. js wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    js wrote:
    Just hesitant to live without grace.
    Where did the ELDERS demonstrate this grace toward Karen or the other women they dehumanize and the children they put at risk and the parents they kept in the dark at The Village? How many others have these ELDERS pushed under their care while they usurped the Holy Spirit and demeaned the Son of God so that they can be rulers over God’s people?
    Did you speak so forcefully about grace then? What does grace mean to you?
    Grace means in Jesus I have a Savior who lived a perfect life and died in my place and rose again so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.
    I believe Karen needs grace. She needs the apology of elders who sinned against her. She needs to go on in her life with God in freedom and find healing in a supportive church. Jordan Root needs grace, even as he should also face the full weight of whatever the law might deem right. He has done despicable things but is not beyond the reach of grace. Time will tell. I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

    I agree with all of that. Thank you. And I would also agree that Jordan needs extensive counseling from a psychiatrist with a background in that sort of evil. I just don’t think that excludes him from the Church so long as protections are in place and he submits to them. The second he tries (and he might for all I know) to convince anyone that he’s better and doesn’t need restriction is the second he needs to go.

  139. Gram3 wrote:

    Bill M wrote:

    the oppression will continue.

    …until the pewpeon attitudes improve and they thank us for our love and care.

    Beatings (love and care) will continue until morale improves

  140. pcapastor wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.

    Nicely said.

  141. js wrote:

    No, I really don’t. I just think we all can grow in our ability to discuss differences with love. My posts are one aspect of a big issue. Its not wrong to discuss what has been discussed here these last few days but mine was an attempt to get us to do some self-reflection in the midst of reflecting on the sins of others. That is worthwhile too, I believe.

    you come on here and accuse the commenters of being rude and unloving and go on and on about having grace toward tvc. TVC as noted here, has had no grace toward karen or other people in their church that they disagree with and that never made you come here and shout, ‘where is the love?’
    i think what you are missing is that there is a time for love and unmerited grace and there is a time for clearing the temple of those that make money off of the Holy things of God. Jesus wasnt kind to everyone and polite to everyone, i think you dont know that because you are trying to follow a system instead of Jesus who is not retired somewhere expecting you and the other fellows in your churches to fix the kingdom of God for Him.

    Even the apostle paul showed evidence of ‘a time for grace a time for truth and justice.’

    4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
    5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Galatians 2:4-5

    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    Matthew 23:23
    are you suggesting we omit the ‘judgment’ part, or is that already omitted in the new version bibles your friends have written.

  142. The elders at TVC have reacted, and spoken out in their emails/letters to their members, in a way that boggles my mind. They were so quick to say – don’t be in a rush to judge Jordan, protect his reputation, he’s okay to attend mixed services as long as he’s not directly in children’s ministry – which is such an arrogant, foolish and PUBLIC stance – emails to 6000 people is PUBLIC. So blasé, to them protecting the kids in the mixed services and home groups was always secondary to what they saw as Jordan’s best interests, or really their best interests because they thought keeping things secret would protect their reputation. They considered their man-made covenants more important than Karen’s conscience before God, they believe they have an authority over her which supersedes Christ’s authority (Christ is who Karen will and should answer too, not TVC), and the Holy Spirit’s (they wanted Karen to go against her conscience and heart), which is not surprising given their upside down approach to dealing with a pedophile.

    What I find so mind-boggling is that TVC Elders have specifically addressed topics like alcoholism with home group leaders, telling them that they need to be aware of people’s struggles and particular sins not only to help those people but to protect them from falling back into such-or-such sin and to prevent them from sinning against others….so they’re concerned about other people in home groups drinking in front of an alcoholic, exposing an alcoholic to a temptation to sin… but until Karen spoke up they were okay with Jordan attending a mixed home group!??! And he is still allowed to attend mixed services?!? He’s addicted to images of children, TVC has no right to allow him to ever be in the same room with a child, they should separate him into a men’s only meeting.

    I personally know of other churches in Dallas that do outreach with men who have been in and out of prison, some for sexual crimes or child abuse, and the conditions are that they can only attend services with other men, they cannot be in services or home groups or Bible studies with the objects that lead them into temptation and sin.

    Unfortunately have encountered the TVC mindset in others, I personally know Christians who get all up in arms and confrontational with someone who has an alcohol problem or a problem with ADULT sexual immorality, because they believe that it is the duty, (and a sign of repentance), of the person with those sins to not place themselves in situations that EVEN SEEM inappropriate or unseemly for them to be in, lest they sin or even appear to sin and besmirch the name of Christ. They quickly segregate such people into suspicious people who need to be watched…and judged.
    And yet, these same Christians, are seemingly the first to say – “Judge not lest ye be judged…cast not the first stone…take the log out of your eye first… or my favorite – “you’re not being Christ-like and you are so UN-forgiving to be suspicious of such-and-such person” when we’re talking about a person with a CONFIRMED HISTORY of child abuse!
    What is that???? That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
    Your opinions, your PUBLIC and private stands, need to be informed by the Bible, not man-made covenants, and they have to also be considering that what they are doing reflects on Christ and His cause. Are they pushing people to Christ or away from Christ?
    TVC is punishing victims, unconcerned with the most helpless and innocent victims of Jordan’s crimes, and protecting and empowering an evil man.
    If Jordan was repentant he would be working with the FBI and show them every single site he visited, every person he communicated with or shared Pornography with, and it should be his mission to help/fund the finding and saving of the children who are being raped and terrorized in all the videos and pictures that he loved looking at so much. God have mercy on the souls of all involved.

  143. pcapastor wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.
    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.

    If there’s a way to speak with you privately, I am happy to. My Facebook and Twitter profiles are public and I’d be happy to share that with you. I just felt it best, considering the “heat of the room” to be cautious in a “room” full of strangers.

  144. js wrote:

    I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

    They proved they were never qualified in the first place. What part of that do you not get?

    What they need to do is go away and meet the real Jesus Christ. They have made a god in their own image. One that loves hierarchy, power and a caste system religion.

  145. Gram3 wrote:

    The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

    js wrote:

    Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers?

    That is quite a leap, a non-sequitur, it does not follow. A discussion of wrong doing, alleged or otherwise, shouldn’t have to degenerate to “Are they saved”.

    Similar to Godwin’s law that proposes there is a 100% chance for for internet discussions to degenerate into Hitler analogies, is there a similar law for christian blogs to eventually question someones salvation? If not, can I claim it? BillM’s law?

  146. js wrote:

    There has to be a way of being civil toward each other which does not whitewash truth. Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

    Here’s one thing that I firmly believe is missing today that is sorely needed. Some times you have two camps at opposite ends yelling at each other or writing each other off. There needs to be communication between the two that will allow information to be candidly exchanged. That is missing today and it is sorely, needed. This is part of the reason why I have no problem meeting people on all sides of the issue and meeting people and getting to know them even if I disagree. Its better to know and listen to them person to person.

  147. sam wrote:

    js wrote:
    No, I really don’t. I just think we all can grow in our ability to discuss differences with love. My posts are one aspect of a big issue. Its not wrong to discuss what has been discussed here these last few days but mine was an attempt to get us to do some self-reflection in the midst of reflecting on the sins of others. That is worthwhile too, I believe.
    you come on here and accuse the commenters of being rude and unloving and go on and on about having grace toward tvc. TVC as noted here, has had no grace toward karen or other people in their church that they disagree with and that never made you come here and shout, ‘where is the love?’
    i think what you are missing is that there is a time for love and unmerited grace and there is a time for clearing the temple of those that make money off of the Holy things of God. Jesus wasnt kind to everyone and polite to everyone, i think you dont know that because you are trying to follow a system instead of Jesus who is not retired somewhere expecting you and the other fellows in your churches to fix the kingdom of God for Him.
    Even the apostle paul showed evidence of ‘a time for grace a time for truth and justice.’
    4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
    5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. Galatians 2:4-5
    23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    Matthew 23:23
    are you suggesting we omit the ‘judgment’ part, or is that already omitted in the new version bibles your friends have written.

    So we should only show grace to those who show grace. Got it. Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

  148. js wrote:

    These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

    I agree that the ELDERS need grace, but that grace for now needs to look a lot like the grace that Jesus extended to the scribes and Pharisees. Most of them did not take what he said to heart because they knew better, and who was this uncouth Galillean to tell them anything? Some of the scribes and Pharisees did receive his grace and followed him by faith. Others plotted with the imperial Authorities to execute him. See, grace is not saying everything is OK. Grace is telling hard truth to people when they need to hear it. Some will listen, and others will harden their hearts and double down.

    One thing is certain. Until they destroy the rotten tree, there will be more rotten fruit. They need to reflect on the Mars Hill example and ask if they want to be the next ones to create so much pain and destruction. So far, it looks like defensive damage control.

  149. sam wrote:

    They keep saying that the roots were not employed by them but actually they have been employers of the Roots, they didnt pay their whole salary but they paid part in agreement with SIMs oh the labor laws of the US that they have broken!

    This is really interesting. From my reading of the sex & other abuse that occurred in ‘developing countries’ under New Tribes/ABWE etc, the missionaries who perpetuated it were outside of US law and unable to be prosecuted.Michaela wrote:

    1. Jordan Root was a missionary and that group was supported by The Village Church.

    Michaela also mentions the ‘ICE’ taskforce and legislation. I wonder how many successful prosecutions they have overseen? That Jordan lived in east Asia makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

  150. js wrote:

    ” so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.” .
    you are following your own particular view of the bible and following Jesus, which no doubt you have been taught at a religious institution and not by Jesus Himself. did you know that Jesus told a group of people that believed in Him that they were of their father the devil?
    John 8:31-50
    you cannot seem to see what people here mean by the comment ‘cheap grace’ because you appear to be following a set of principals instead of the Living God

  151. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.
    They proved they were never qualified in the first place. What part of that do you not get?
    What they need to do is go away and meet the real Jesus Christ. They have made a god in their own image. One that loves hierarchy, power and a caste system religion.

    Says the arbiter of all truth? You understand that not everyone agrees with you, right? And that, in no way, makes them wrong. I’ve seen more Jesus in Matt Chandler than in any Presbyterian, Methodist or Baptist minister I have ever known. I understand that doesn’t matter to you, but it does to me. That said, I fully understand is as sinful and flawed and wicked as you or I.

  152. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.
    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.
    If there’s a way to speak with you privately, I am happy to. My Facebook and Twitter profiles are public and I’d be happy to share that with you. I just felt it best, considering the “heat of the room” to be cautious in a “room” full of strangers.

    Fair enough. If you contact Dee and/or Deb (click on the “contacting us” tab at the top of this page) via email, they can forward your email to me.

  153. sam wrote:

    Matt is just another casualty of a sinful system.

    In the Chandler post I ran across last night “the system” at TVC had yet to be setup. He oversaw the installation of the oppressive membership covenant in a church that did not have one before he came.

    Chandler’s post on justifying membership was mostly about submit, obey, and discipline. Chandler owns this mess.

  154. @ Dallasite:

    From my view of watching this train wreck of YRR/Acts 29 for the last 15 years or so, they have a very different view of sexual sin. Especially when it involves children. I do think it stems from their caste system view. Jordon becomes most important in this scenerio by the fact he is male. The children Jordon viewed are throw aways because grace to the male is most important. Karen is “rebellious” and does not know her place.

    Lets be honest, they made a decision to protect Jordon’s reputation as much as possible and even gave instructions on how to treat him without telling people it was about child porn!

    They really do think like this. It is hard to imagine. Hard to believe but when you see little kids and women thrown under the bus enough, you have to start admitting you really are seeing what you are seeing.

  155. Dallasite wrote:

    The elders at TVC have reacted, and spoken out in their emails/letters to their members, in a way that boggles my mind. They were so quick to say – don’t be in a rush to judge Jordan, protect his reputation, he’s okay to attend mixed services as long as he’s not directly in children’s ministry – which is such an arrogant, foolish and PUBLIC stance – emails to 6000 people is PUBLIC. So blasé, to them protecting the kids in the mixed services and home groups was always secondary to what they saw as Jordan’s best interests, or really their best interests because they thought keeping things secret would protect their reputation. They considered their man-made covenants more important than Karen’s conscience before God, they believe they have an authority over her which supersedes Christ’s authority (Christ is who Karen will and should answer too, not TVC), and the Holy Spirit’s (they wanted Karen to go against her conscience and heart), which is not surprising given their upside down approach to dealing with a pedophile.

    What I find so mind-boggling is that TVC Elders have specifically addressed topics like alcoholism with home group leaders, telling them that they need to be aware of people’s struggles and particular sins not only to help those people but to protect them from falling back into such-or-such sin and to prevent them from sinning against others….so they’re concerned about other people in home groups drinking in front of an alcoholic, exposing an alcoholic to a temptation to sin… but until Karen spoke up they were okay with Jordan attending a mixed home group!??! And he is still allowed to attend mixed services?!? He’s addicted to images of children, TVC has no right to allow him to ever be in the same room with a child, they should separate him into a men’s only meeting.

    I personally know of other churches in Dallas that do outreach with men who have been in and out of prison, some for sexual crimes or child abuse, and the conditions are that they can only attend services with other men, they cannot be in services or home groups or Bible studies with the objects that lead them into temptation and sin.

    Unfortunately have encountered the TVC mindset in others, I personally know Christians who get all up in arms and confrontational with someone who has an alcohol problem or a problem with ADULT sexual immorality, because they believe that it is the duty, (and a sign of repentance), of the person with those sins to not place themselves in situations that EVEN SEEM inappropriate or unseemly for them to be in, lest they sin or even appear to sin and besmirch the name of Christ. They quickly segregate such people into suspicious people who need to be watched…and judged.
    And yet, these same Christians, are seemingly the first to say – “Judge not lest ye be judged…cast not the first stone…take the log out of your eye first… or my favorite – “you’re not being Christ-like and you are so UN-forgiving to be suspicious of such-and-such person” when we’re talking about a person with a CONFIRMED HISTORY of child abuse!
    What is that???? That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
    Your opinions, your PUBLIC and private stands, need to be informed by the Bible, not man-made covenants, and they have to also be considering that what they are doing reflects on Christ and His cause. Are they pushing people to Christ or away from Christ?
    TVC is punishing victims, unconcerned with the most helpless and innocent victims of Jordan’s crimes, and protecting and empowering an evil man.
    If Jordan was repentant he would be working with the FBI and show them every single site he visited, every person he communicated with or shared Pornography with, and it should be his mission to help/fund the finding and saving of the children who are being raped and terrorized in all the videos and pictures that he loved looking at so much. God have mercy on the souls of all involved.

    ^^^^ THIS.

  156. Dallasite wrote:

    That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.

    I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

  157. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

    I think that is what we’ve been trying to say. I just don’t think we agree on the nature of grace or law or gospel. Victims get man-made laws while perpetrators get grace. Victims get excluded and cast outside the camp while perpetrators get embraced within the camp.

    This is seriously twisted and warped, IMO, and looks nothing like what is actually in the Bible. Karen is a sinner against the System, so she must be punished. Jordan is a supporter of the System, so he must be embraced and forgiven and let’s MoveOn. How does this look remotely like Jesus and his Kingdom where he is the only ruler?

  158. Bill M wrote:

    Chandler owns this mess.

    That is right. He brought in tons of followers from his college ministry days to the tiny church who followed him as the guru. He institutionalized what he learned from his gurus like Driscoll, Mahaney, etc.

    it is totally his mess and his creation.

  159. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    So we should only show grace to those who show grace. Got it. Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

    Another non-sequitur, does not follow. And there is that word again, Gospel, capitalized like it is a member of the trinity.

  160. @ Lydia:

    I hesitate to call any statute of limitations “convenient” especially considering that the wounds of sexual abuse are life-long.

    (I know you aren’t calling them convenient either.)

  161. Haitch wrote:

    That Jordan lived in east Asia makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

    Indonesia comes to mind, Bali in particular. Not that I know where they served. Sex trafficking, slavery, child porn and child prostitution is huge there.

  162. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:

    some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    How do you know this? Perhaps we call it like it is because we don’t have a vested interest in the System. Do you have an interest in the ClergyAuthority System that you wish to protect? A place of privilege that you wish to protect?

    I don’t buy the totally negative narrative as calling it like it is and surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters? It cuts both ways. Some may be trying to protect what others may be trying to destroy and probably no one is seeing clearly because of built-in bias. The way to overcome it is openness, discussion and loving interaction. We may still disagree in the end but it will be a much more productive disagreement.

  163. is js short for justice slayer, friend of truth slayer?Dallasite wrote:

    If Jordan was repentant he would be working with the FBI and show them every single site he visited, every person he communicated with or shared Pornography with, and it should be his mission to help/fund the finding and saving of the children who are being raped and terrorized in all the videos and pictures that he loved looking at so much. God have mercy on the souls of all involved.

    thats what Jordan said he was doing years ago, helping fund and save children who are trafficked. He said that when he was actually viewing it to get off, so i wouldnt believe a word he says now. how many times can a guy be caught in a lie and this church use ‘grace’ ‘forgiveness’ ‘dont be mean to him, love on him’ ‘dont tell anyone’

  164. Bill M wrote:

    Chandler owns this mess.

    Yes, but he should share the credit for the mess with Dever, Grudem, Piper, and the rest of the YRR Usual Suspects who teach the same thing. He drew the crowds, and they provided the product. Everybody gets a cut of the action.

  165. Haitch wrote:

    Nah, hasn’t quite got the right syllogic cadence to it, sorry.

    After Tweetie Pie was visiting here I thought of changing to Sylvester, would that work better? Sylvester’s law?

  166. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Dallasite wrote:

    That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.

    I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

    This is a good commentary. Christians let down there guard in their tribe, or groups. Because it’s a church, it must be safe. Christians should be just as much on guard and not think their environment is any safer because people claim Christ (perhaps they do, perhaps they don’t).

  167. js wrote:

    The way to overcome it is openness, discussion and loving interaction.

    What does loving interaction look like to you?

  168. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people.

    I saw this in high school but didn’t think it would keep on keeping on.

  169. Bill M wrote:

    In the Chandler post I ran across last night “the system” at TVC had yet to be setup. He oversaw the installation of the oppressive membership covenant in a church that did not have one before he came.
    Chandler’s post on justifying membership was mostly about submit, obey, and discipline. Chandler owns this mess.

    ahhh, thank you

  170. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Says the arbiter of all truth? You understand that not everyone agrees with you, right? And that, in no way, makes them wrong. I’ve seen more Jesus in Matt Chandler than in any Presbyterian, Methodist or Baptist minister I have ever known. I understand that doesn’t matter to you, but it does to me. That said, I fully understand is as sinful and flawed and wicked as you or I.

    What I try to do is make arguments about truth. But I do think there is a right and wrong. And that is what we are trying to point out there. Gram3 makes the distinction very well in this comment:

    Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

    I think that is what we’ve been trying to say. I just don’t think we agree on the nature of grace or law or gospel. Victims get man-made laws while perpetrators get grace. Victims get excluded and cast outside the camp while perpetrators get embraced within the camp.

    This is seriously twisted and warped, IMO, and looks nothing like what is actually in the Bible. Karen is a sinner against the System, so she must be punished. Jordan is a supporter of the System, so he must be embraced and forgiven and let’s MoveOn. How does this look remotely like Jesus and his Kingdom where he is the only ruler?

    When people tell me they have seen more Jesus in such or such guru, I have to chuckle. I was around the celebrity guru world in seeker megas for years. Mosst folks who say that have not spent much time at all with their favorite Jesus like guru. And chances are good they never will. There is an inner ring people never pentetrate. These guys are extremely insulated in a bubble which shows when these sorts of things happen. I do understand the mentality of folks who get 2 min with the great one and come away thinking he is the most wonderful man in the world. To make oneself a minor Christian celeb and hone those stage skills is an art and the task is in constant image management that presents whatever shitck they have devised whether it is charisma, passion or humility. I know, I worked backstage in that world.

    Now if you had said, I see more Jesus in Matt’s stage persona than any other cult of personality, then I could probably understand that better.

    Don;t be so easily taken in. If you can’t run over to your pastors house to borrow his lawnmower at moments notice, don’t tell me you know him.

  171. Bill M wrote:

    Similar to Godwin’s law that proposes there is a 100% chance for for internet discussions to degenerate into Hitler analogies, is there a similar law for christian blogs to eventually question someones salvation? If not, can I claim it? BillM’s law?

    Or…maybe it could be expressed as ‘Bill-Ems Law’ or widen it to ‘Bill’s Christian Conundrum’ when terms like ‘bitter’, ‘grace’ and ‘authority’ surface. I suggest the TLA (three letter acronym) trope of DGS or ‘downward gospelly spiral’.
    PS there has been some great Christian linguistic exchanges over the last week, I mean to keep a record.

  172. Lydia wrote:

    From my view of watching this train wreck of YRR/Acts 29 for the last 15 years or so, they have a very different view of sexual sin. Especially when it involves children. I do think it stems from their caste system view. Jordon becomes most important in this scenerio by the fact he is male. The children Jordon viewed are throw aways because grace to the male is most important. Karen is “rebellious” and does not know her place.
    Lets be honest, they made a decision to protect Jordon’s reputation as much as possible and even gave instructions on how to treat him without telling people it was about child porn!
    They really do think like this. It is hard to imagine. Hard to believe but when you see little kids and women thrown under the bus enough, you have to start admitting you really are seeing what you are seeing.

    absolutly! and then they have people come here and say things, like i have seen more Jesus in Matt than anywhere else! i think they should look around more, maybe in the slums instead of the big air conditioned 6,000 member churches where for some reason they keep looking for Jesus

  173. You know, TT, a big problem here that you just don’t seem to be getting in your talk of “heat in the room” and such is that many people get a mite touchy about child sexual abuse. And they get more than a mite touchy when they find out about a church that disciplines and then sets out to publicly humiliate a woman who was a victim of child sexual abuse (yes, wives are victims and yes, viewing child porn supports child sex abuse) when she tried to extricate herself from the abuser.

    We get a mite touchy. The three women to whom I am the closest in the whole wide world were all victims of it. It has left some absolutely indelible marks on their lives, and they are not the only victims, it affects those who love them.

    When I ponder all this in light of what I know to be the truth about child sex abuse, when I look at the way that Chandler and company treated this woman who was herself a victim, when I look at how they only apologized AFTER the whole thing blew up, when I consider the nature of that apology (were I ever to apologize such as that to my family when I’d done them wrong, they’d shout me down and laugh me out of the room and tell me to come back when I had a tiny smidge of contrition), I am stunned.

    When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt and then I consider what Jesus said of such harming of little ones, that “It would be better” for such a person to have a “millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea”, I just shake my head. I wonder what Jesus it is you reference.

  174. @ Lydia:
    I agree on the caste thing. I think that the overall strategy was to contain the facts so that the reputation of the church is not irretrievably damaged. They had a very bad set of facts to work with.

    So, they first tried to coerce her into a fake reconciliation so they could make happy talk about it. But she did not follow either the SubmissiveWife Role or the SubmissiveSheep Role. Hmmm. That didn’t usually happen because women are shamed into accepting their Place in the CreationOrder. This was an unforeseen anomaly, so then what to do? They acted in complete consistency with their System, and here we are.

    The pity of it is that it is so totally unnecessary and worse for The Village, they could have made this into a net positive if they had only followed the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. But they abandoned that course over ten years ago, and there is no going back. Their defensive posture is not just for The Village. It goes way beyond that. What we have are three epic examples where the System has been fully implemented with unlimited resources (another perfectly good word they have corrupted) and has blown up spectacularly. SGM, then Mars Hill, and now The Village. Connect the dots, folks.

  175. sam wrote:

    js wrote:

    ” so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.” .
    you are following your own particular view of the bible and following Jesus, which no doubt you have been taught at a religious institution and not by Jesus Himself. did you know that Jesus told a group of people that believed in Him that they were of their father the devil?
    John 8:31-50
    you cannot seem to see what people here mean by the comment ‘cheap grace’ because you appear to be following a set of principals instead of the Living God

    That’s a huge assumption to make based on a couple of sentences. Jesus is my Savior, I love Him and He is real in my life.

    And I am not telling anyone what they have to believe or that I am right. I am giving my opinion and I acknowledge that I could be wrong. My posts are a small part of this bigger discussion and that is that we who are Christians are in danger of forgetting the heart of our faith, grace, not only in what we believe and do but in how we regard other believers and how we interact with one another online. If what I’ve said is totally untrue of you, let it roll. If there is truth in it, consider it and adjust. What I am talking about is not nearly as serious as the larger TVC situation but how we interact with one another is important.

  176. js wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    js wrote:
    some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.
    How do you know this? Perhaps we call it like it is because we don’t have a vested interest in the System. Do you have an interest in the ClergyAuthority System that you wish to protect? A place of privilege that you wish to protect?
    I don’t buy the totally negative narrative as calling it like it is and surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters? It cuts both ways. Some may be trying to protect what others may be trying to destroy and probably no one is seeing clearly because of built-in bias. The way to overcome it is openness, discussion and loving interaction. We may still disagree in the end but it will be a much more productive disagreement.

    Agreed.

  177. js wrote:

    surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters?

    Oh, I totally and freely acknowledge that my interest is in tearing down the System that is a strangler fig on the real Fig Tree. It is a false gospel that has become popular and profitable.

    Yes, I am definitely interested in cutting it down, digging it out, and burning the pieces so that new life can spring out of the ground that has been consumed by this.

  178. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.

    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

    Sorry – that’s not how it came across. It’s been a strange and fractious time lately… Peace and grace to you, Brother!

  179. Bill M wrote:

    After Tweetie Pie was visiting here I thought of changing to Sylvester, would that work better? Sylvester’s law?

    very good, its what sylvester says after granma shoos him away when he tries to eat tweetie bird over and over and over again

  180. @ js:
    And I should add that I have been clear, I think, about what the problems are in the System. While I don’t believe that you have been as forthcoming about the positives that you see in the System. Or how those resemble the template we have been given in the life of Christ and in the Bible.

  181. Bill M wrote:

    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people.
    +++++++++
    I saw this in high school but didn’t think it would keep on keeping on.

    I can’t remember who said it, Nicole Kidman or someone similar, but she felt we didn’t evolve much after school, it’s just the same old, same old – that these groups and our ways of interacting continue into adulthood. I have found this quote useful, if not depressing, at times.

  182. Bill M wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.
    js wrote:
    Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers?
    That is quite a leap, a non-sequitur, it does not follow. A discussion of wrong doing, alleged or otherwise, shouldn’t have to degenerate to “Are they saved”.
    Similar to Godwin’s law that proposes there is a 100% chance for for internet discussions to degenerate into Hitler analogies, is there a similar law for christian blogs to eventually question someones salvation? If not, can I claim it? BillM’s law?

    Guess what., I’m going to make an application of Bill M’s Law right now. When I see people who assume they have the God-given right to take charge of a group of believers and over the years engage in repeated, seemingly unrepentant sin that has the effect of attacking the true Body of Christ, that oppresses and disregards that Body, that invariably undermines that Body, all while claiming righteousness and goodness, I very much wonder if they are truly believers in Christ. They seem to specialize in destroying His people, if they love Him so much, why do they do that? I understand that Christians can and will do horrible things, I know I’m a part of that problem and will not be free of it til I die. But I have come to the conclusion that while no one has the right to judge someone else (or even themselves) all-in-all, that we are to look for fruits and when they are invariably bad, to have nothing to do with such people.

  183. Haitch wrote:

    sam wrote:

    They keep saying that the roots were not employed by them but actually they have been employers of the Roots, they didnt pay their whole salary but they paid part in agreement with SIMs oh the labor laws of the US that they have broken!

    This is really interesting. From my reading of the sex & other abuse that occurred in ‘developing countries’ under New Tribes/ABWE etc, the missionaries who perpetuated it were outside of US law and unable to be prosecuted.Michaela wrote:

    1. Jordan Root was a missionary and that group was supported by The Village Church.

    Michaela also mentions the ‘ICE’ taskforce and legislation. I wonder how many successful prosecutions they have overseen? That Jordan lived in east Asia makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

    ICE has been involved in quite a few successful prosecutions of US citizens who committed sex crimes against children overseas. It is unlawful for US citizens to do that anywhere in the world and they can be criminally prosecuted for it here.

    From the US Immigration And Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) website, a division of the US Department for Homeland Security
    Predators Face Severe Penalties
    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act. Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18. ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    • Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    • Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    • Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution

  184. js wrote:

    give you the impetus to tear down that system

    As much as someone might like revolutions they always end up bad. It would be safe to say that most are interested in reform, but with totalitarian systems the decision is in the hands of the “leaders” of how it proceeds.

    For my part I found the support here to see clearly the problem of authoritarian systems, to identify them, and to avoid them.

  185. js wrote:

    If what I’ve said is totally untrue of you, let it roll. If there is truth in it, consider it and adjust.

    do you want me to appreciate your coming in here and telling me what to do, and to appreciate your disregard of what i said and your turning it back onto me? I dont.

  186. Lydia wrote:

    Don;t be so easily taken in. If you can’t run over to your pastors house to borrow his lawnmower at moments notice, don’t tell me you know him.

    Amen. That’s the truth. But probably lost on the worshiper of celebrity. Perhaps TT will ponder it.

  187. js wrote:

    That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

    This is the blog of the Deebs. If you have a problem, speak to us and tell us what we are doing wrong. Show us with links-not with innuendoes.

    As for our commenters, we have Christians, non Christians and atheists who visit here.I listen to all sides and rarely delete a comment. You can lecture people on “how to love online” but I prefer to let them speak and listen to their thoughts, no matter how harsh.

    I am not running a Bible study here. Instead, I am trying to get a conversation going that involves a lot more that BFFs who all agree on everything anyway. I want to hear more than I want to tell people how and what to say.

    If you want nice” discussion. go on over to TGC blogs which delete a whole bunch of comments, especially as they relate to child sex abuse issues at SGM.But, they are nice-I looooooove this post-type comments.

  188. pcapastor wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    pcapastor wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.
    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.
    If there’s a way to speak with you privately, I am happy to. My Facebook and Twitter profiles are public and I’d be happy to share that with you. I just felt it best, considering the “heat of the room” to be cautious in a “room” full of strangers.
    Fair enough. If you contact Dee and/or Deb (click on the “contacting us” tab at the top of this page) via email, they can forward your email to me.

    Done and done. Thanks, Texas Truthsayer. I’ve checked out your twitter and Facebook pages and you are indeed who you have represented yourself to be on this blog. Thanks for that!

  189. @ js:

    Just in case you do not understand the rules of engagement over here, please let me remind you that the adorable Deebs run this blog. We get to tell people what not to say. We do not need your help and lectures on your thoughts on *loving interaction.*

    if you want, I would be happy to help you set up your own blog in which you can blast away in your own style.

  190. @ Lydia:
    Around the Wartburg Castle, Pugs Rule and Cats Drool.

    Cats are also rebellious liberal feminists who refuse to take orders. They want to usurp all authority, and they usually succeed.

  191. js wrote:

    What I am talking about is not nearly as serious as the larger TVC situation but how we interact with one another is important.

    You have not given any clear examples of what responses are wrong or how. Are you speaking of tone? Words used? what? Give exact clear examples or no one knows what you are talking about.

    I have been interacting with YRR bullies for years and I admit fully, I am not sweet about it anymore. They view that sort of stance as any bully would and usually stick to ad homenim arguments or declarations of “no proof”! It is the most twisted world I have ever been around. And the thinking is so ingrained I almost feel as if the entire movement will have to go to cult debriefing to change it.

    that movement is based upon bully principles with cheesy language that tries to mask it. You stand up to bullies. Bullies pick on the unprotected and vulnerable just as we are seeing at TVC.

  192. Lydia wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Says the arbiter of all truth? You understand that not everyone agrees with you, right? And that, in no way, makes them wrong. I’ve seen more Jesus in Matt Chandler than in any Presbyterian, Methodist or Baptist minister I have ever known. I understand that doesn’t matter to you, but it does to me. That said, I fully understand is as sinful and flawed and wicked as you or I.
    What I try to do is make arguments about truth. But I do think there is a right and wrong. And that is what we are trying to point out there. Gram3 makes the distinction very well in this comment:
    Gram3 wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.
    I think that is what we’ve been trying to say. I just don’t think we agree on the nature of grace or law or gospel. Victims get man-made laws while perpetrators get grace. Victims get excluded and cast outside the camp while perpetrators get embraced within the camp.
    This is seriously twisted and warped, IMO, and looks nothing like what is actually in the Bible. Karen is a sinner against the System, so she must be punished. Jordan is a supporter of the System, so he must be embraced and forgiven and let’s MoveOn. How does this look remotely like Jesus and his Kingdom where he is the only ruler?
    When people tell me they have seen more Jesus in such or such guru, I have to chuckle. I was around the celebrity guru world in seeker megas for years. Mosst folks who say that have not spent much time at all with their favorite Jesus like guru. And chances are good they never will. There is an inner ring people never pentetrate. These guys are extremely insulated in a bubble which shows when these sorts of things happen. I do understand the mentality of folks who get 2 min with the great one and come away thinking he is the most wonderful man in the world. To make oneself a minor Christian celeb and hone those stage skills is an art and the task is in constant image management that presents whatever shitck they have devised whether it is charisma, passion or humility. I know, I worked backstage in that world.
    Now if you had said, I see more Jesus in Matt’s stage persona than any other cult of personality, then I could probably understand that better.
    Don;t be so easily taken in. If you can’t run over to your pastors house to borrow his lawnmower at moments notice, don’t tell me you know him.

    I live 45 minutes away from Flower Mound, so borrowing a mower would not really be worth the drive. And while I do not know him in the sort of way you suggest, I know people who ARE that familiar with him…and I know that he’s taken people into his home and let them stay because his daughter felt for this woman and thought she and Lauren could make an impact. In no way do I think he’s perfect or without flaw…just that I have 3 years of experiencing humility and confession. I’ve watched him end the membership of men who left wives for younger models, etc.

    I used to work in a large church in Indiana…and spend 15 years after that avoiding church altogether. I knew too much. I had seen behind the curtain. I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work. If you believe it is, I encourage you to embed yourself in the Flower Mound campus and put your investigative skills to use. If you find something tangible that I have not, I’d not be so quick to defend. Also, lest anyone get the wrong idea, I was not a “good” staff member in a bad church all those years ago…I was another sinful staff member (back then, in Indiana) that didn’t expect in my naïveté that everyone else was as flawed as myself. And once I got to feeling good about how much better I was handling myself, pride caused a great fall (got my girlfriend pregnant) and I dealt with hypocrisy and my own failings. I’ve seen and BEEN the good, bad and ugly. I’m only saying I haven’t seen it at TVC in any of my experiences. If that changes, I would willingly admit it. And maybe with time, I will see that. My only point is that I haven’t known that to be the case in my 3 years attending.

  193. sam wrote:

    If Jordan Root was really repentant at the Acts 29 Village Church, he would be helping Law Enforcement right now to break up the pedo rings that produced the kid porn he was viewing. Instead he is staying sheltered in the mega church

    I think it would be important to know if he has been forthcoming with information regarding his sources of his child pornography. And whether he is getting counselling from professions who have dealt with pedophiles.

  194. @ Gram3:

    Ha!

    I have an embroidered pillow someone gave me that says, “I just want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am”.

    Can’t say that about a cat! Besides, I am deathly allergic to them.

  195. pcapastor wrote:

    pcapastor wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    pcapastor wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    roebuck wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Peace and grace. I’m out.
    Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
    Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.
    Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.
    If there’s a way to speak with you privately, I am happy to. My Facebook and Twitter profiles are public and I’d be happy to share that with you. I just felt it best, considering the “heat of the room” to be cautious in a “room” full of strangers.
    Fair enough. If you contact Dee and/or Deb (click on the “contacting us” tab at the top of this page) via email, they can forward your email to me.
    Done and done. Thanks, Texas Truthsayer. I’ve checked out your twitter and Facebook pages and you are indeed who you have represented yourself to be on this blog. Thanks for that!

    Of course! Thank you again for being gracious. And really, in spite of disagreements and all, I appreciate that no one has tried to silence me. It says a great deal about the hosts. So thanks to them, as well.

  196. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Ha!
    I have an embroidered pillow someone gave me that says, “I just want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am”.
    Can’t say that about a cat! Besides, I am deathly allergic to them.

    As am I, much to my children’s chagrin. They want a kitty so badly. Daddy needs to breathe. 🙂

  197. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Dallasite wrote:

    That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

    This is actually a very powerful statement AB. I agree. I’m about to segue here. And if the ‘Church’ was less worried about this and ‘let the light shine in’ it might expose the abuse of power earlier, and hamper an active paedophile within the church. Paedophiles go where there are children. So they’re in the teaching profession, in Scouts, in the YMCA, and in church. etc. And they don’t all look like Jimmy Saville. Last week I corrected a friend who said of the Catholic Church, ‘if only they would let the priests marry’ (it is frequent topic of conversation because of the ongoing Royal Commission here). I said I don’t believe it would have made much difference, and that the problem was probably worse in the Protestant churches. It’s not just in the church however, it was anywhere children congregated – the homes for delinquents, for orphans, sporting organisations, etc. They seem to get a bit more of a free pass in churches though, because of the naivete of Christians about the psychopathology of paedophiles, and the ‘love everybody’ and ‘forgiveness’ and ‘Jesus will turn your life around’ factors.

  198. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.

  199. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.

    If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.

  200. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

  201. Law Prof wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.
    If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.

    That may, in fact, bet true. I am not familiar with A29 aside from (1) Chandler heading it and (2) them calling Driscoll to repent and step down. I also know that Matt moved the home office for A29 into the same shopping center area where the Flower Mound campus is located. What changes, if any, are being made within that organization, I am unequipped to speak about.

  202. Law Prof wrote:

    Albuquerque Blue wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.

    Dog man myself. Cats are fine – they just don’t belong among (otherwise) civilized people. 😉 🙂

  203. js wrote:

    The way to overcome it is openness, discussion and loving interaction. We may still disagree in the end but it will be a much more productive disagreement.

    I thought getting in another’s face and being blunt was “loving interaction”. If it’s not, then Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James would have a lot of explaining to do. But of course, they do not. The ones who have a lot of explaining to do are those who come as angels of light with all this faux “loving interaction”.

  204. roebuck wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Albuquerque Blue wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^
    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.
    Dog man myself. Cats are fine – they just don’t belong among (otherwise) civilized people.

    OK, just crossed you off my list. We’re having a schism here over cats-dogs. Time to forma new denomination.

  205. @ Michaela:

    Tiny is not small enough. “Bless your miniscule little, hard as steel, unloving and uncaring, heart.” fits better with this jerk.

  206. Law Prof wrote:

    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.

    I forgive you.

  207. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’m only saying I haven’t seen it at TVC in any of my experiences. If that changes, I would willingly admit it. And maybe with time, I will see that. My only point is that I haven’t known that to be the case in my 3 years attending.

    this is great except you are here in defense of a church that willfully and in writing did everything in their power to conceal that a sexual predator was in their midst, and told people not to tell families that had had interaction with Jordan, because they were worried about his reputation. This is un christ like, you know, Jesus Christ, who said not to offend one of these little ones. Protecting and not offending little ones is Christ like, verbally attacking people that are trying to protect the innocent children in this, is even anti-christ like.

  208. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

    How about if I tell you that my cat think is mostly real allergy. Can we still be friends? Love the puptriarchy. 🙂

  209. Gram3 wrote:

    How about Puddy Tat’s rule? Cats are popular, apparently. They are definitely not saved.

    heh heh, I’ve had much mirth reading this. I suggest the response “I tawt I taw a Puddy Tat!” when being levelled with accusations of “you’re heathen/heretic/pagan/unsaved/unrepentant/a minion of Stan”.

  210. dee wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    But he also disciplined a young woman who had been through hell. Chandler is leaning towards harsh discipline and that concerns me.

    Actually, I believe it was Matt Younger that brought up the discipline angle…according to the covenant. Chandler, while the lead teaching pastor, is not in charge of the Dallas Campus but rather an Elder in the TVC body as a whole. I’d not be surprised to find that some uncomfortable conversations are taking place between the elders and the Dallas campus pastors. And, hopefully, now that they are addressing the language and intent of the covenant, they will prevent anything from coming before the grace and mercy they need to extend the person involved. With a staff that large, it likely got out of hand before too many other campus were brought in to weigh on the matter. But I don’t claim to know that for a fact, so please don’t take that as such.

  211. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Didn’t Karen mention a three month gap, before the church notified members that Jordan had Pedophiliac tendencies?

    Didn’t the church also (and this was before notifying the members of his Pedophiliac habits) send out an email to members encouraging them to “love on” Jordan, spend time with them, and some of those recipients have small children?

  212. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.
    If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.
    That may, in fact, bet true. I am not familiar with A29 aside from (1) Chandler heading it and (2) them calling Driscoll to repent and step down. I also know that Matt moved the home office for A29 into the same shopping center area where the Flower Mound campus is located. What changes, if any, are being made within that organization, I am unequipped to speak about.

    I am not a part of A29, so I cannot speak directly, but was a former elder in an A29-esque neocalvinist denomination that let people know, sometimes brutally, if they were moving to another place, that they would not be “leaving well” unless they went to a place like A29 (which was specifically mentioned by the pastor as acceptable). There is a certain strain (A29, SGM, NFI) that is virtually indistinguishable.

  213. Michaela wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Albuquerque Blue wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^
    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.
    I forgive you.

    Heretic!

  214. An Attorney wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

    Hasn’t challenged it YET. This story is all still very fresh. I would imagine that there are things on all sides that are still unknown. If something like that were to come to light, I would certainly expect confession and repentance.

  215. Lydia wrote:

    Can’t say that about a cat! Besides, I am deathly allergic to them.

    Me, too. I thought I would just throw that out because this thread needed a little stirring. 🙂 Calvinists and Arminians have nothing on CatPeople and DogPeople. And then there are the spats between the sects within the DogFaith and the CatFaith. DogFaith at least has Westminster. Cats not so much.

  216. @ roebuck:

    This line of discussion could getLaw Prof wrote:

    OK, just crossed you off my list. We’re having a schism here over cats-dogs. Time to forma new denomination.

    Yes, this makes the Calvinism/Arminianism schism seem like kindergarten.

    Actually, I love cats, and my friends’ cats love me. I just can’t have cats here because

    1) they kill birds

    and

    2) I will not do the litterbox thing

  217. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work. If you believe it is, I encourage you to embed yourself in the Flower Mound campus and put your investigative skills to use. If you find something tangible that I have not, I’d not be so quick to defend

    What you do not seem to understand is the “system” TVC was built upon. TVC operates as a closed system like all these sorts of churches do. There are a lot of indicators that are obvious. Elder led caste system, strict gender roles, no published detailed budgets, no voting on spending from the members, behavior of members scruitinized by a few who are specially anointed to do so, only a handful of leaders decide “church discipline, elitism concerning signing a church covenant, and on and on.

    It is a recipe for authoritarian disaster as we have seen clearly from their own documents concerning this scandal.

    If you do not subscribe to the priesthood of believer and a form of soul liberty, you won’t see it. It will be your normal as it is for many. That saddens me.

  218. Lydia wrote:

    don’t tell me you know him.

    Thanks for pointing this out, to know the character of someone takes time. Short of that we are known either by our works, or mainly by our individual acts of love. The latter is not looking real good for TVC leadership right now, unless you use the construct love=care=control.

  219. Law Prof wrote:

    If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.

    The impenetrable ring is not apparent until you try to break through it either from the outside or the inside.

  220. Law Prof wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Law Prof wrote:
    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.
    If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.
    That may, in fact, bet true. I am not familiar with A29 aside from (1) Chandler heading it and (2) them calling Driscoll to repent and step down. I also know that Matt moved the home office for A29 into the same shopping center area where the Flower Mound campus is located. What changes, if any, are being made within that organization, I am unequipped to speak about.
    I am not a part of A29, so I cannot speak directly, but was a former elder in an A29-esque neocalvinist denomination that let people know, sometimes brutally, if they were moving to another place, that they would not be “leaving well” unless they went to a place like A29 (which was specifically mentioned by the pastor as acceptable). There is a certain strain (A29, SGM, NFI) that is virtually indistinguishable.

    I hate to hear that, but if it eases your mind any…one of the things that drew me to TVC was the fact that, in my first week or two attending, Chandler asked “How many of you drove more than 20 minutes to get here?” People raised hands, including myself. “Why are you passing good churches to come here? Why not plant yourself in a church in YOUR neighborhood so you can impact YOUR community? There are lots of good churches you passed getting here! Ask yourself if they preach Christ and Him crucified…do they disciple the body and raise up men and women with a passion for God…and jump in!” And he’s said similar things repeatedly. I have never heard him even talk A29 from the pulpit other than “I was in (insert city) with A29 and…” I’ve seen him tweet welcomes to new A29 pastors and that’s about it.

  221. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    With a staff that large, it likely got out of hand before too many other campus were brought in to weigh on the matte

    It was more than just Karen. They even admitted to it. Karen addressed emails to Matt Chandler. He chose to ignore them. A real *man* says “the buck stops here.” Chandler is responsible for this church. Trying to keep him isolated from the fall out is silly and most people outside of your church can see what is happening.

    We have written story after story about Acts 29 plants as well as City View Church join Fort Worth., Sorry there is too much wrong. Maybe he is a nice guy in the neighborhood. But so are many people. There is a deep problem at TVC. You do not have a pastor. You have a talking head.

    I wonder if he learned this from Driscoll. Let’s see who gets thrown under the bus.

  222. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    An Attorney wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

    Hasn’t challenged it YET. This story is all still very fresh. I would imagine that there are things on all sides that are still unknown. If something like that were to come to light, I would certainly expect confession and repentance.

    Much like the “confession and repentance” shown in the TVC “apology?”

  223. @ Gram3:
    Weighing in on this very important subject. Allergic to cats, married to a dog person, so that puts me firmly in the DogFaith camp.

  224. An Attorney wrote:

    She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

    I think their fact set is possibly much worse. I would not at all be surprised if Karen did not have the support of older and wiser missionaries who have been around the block more than once. If that is who advised her, then The Village was telling her to go against the counsel of her missions advisors. That may not be where she got her counsel, but I think it is up there. That and probably her parents and/or grandparents. Or some good professors at Cedarville or even DTS. IOW, I think that the ELDERS were playing t-ball and Karen had a much deeper and professional team behind her.

  225. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    They emulate their leaders. And besides, Chandler pretty much backed it up in the faux apology that was not an apology. CJ tried that deflection, too. Everything that has come out about TVC screams authoritarian. That is the culture of the leadership whether the pew sitters get it or not. Now that might be normal to you so you don’t see it.

  226. Lydia wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work. If you believe it is, I encourage you to embed yourself in the Flower Mound campus and put your investigative skills to use. If you find something tangible that I have not, I’d not be so quick to defend
    What you do not seem to understand is the “system” TVC was built upon. TVC operates as a closed system like all these sorts of churches do. There are a lot of indicators that are obvious. Elder led caste system, strict gender roles, no published detailed budgets, no voting on spending from the members, behavior of members scruitinized by a few who are specially anointed to do so, only a handful of leaders decide “church discipline, elitism concerning signing a church covenant, and on and on.
    It is a recipe for authoritarian disaster as we have seen clearly from their own documents concerning this scandal.
    If you do not subscribe to the priesthood of believer and a form of soul liberty, you won’t see it. It will be your normal as it is for many. That saddens me.

    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism. I understand that. Detailed budgets ARE posted. Spending IS voted on. Discipline usually starts at the Home Group level…and home groups are many and varied…not a select few. Re: church covenant, I’ve already said that, as I am not a covenant member, I cannot speak to that.

  227. Gram3 wrote:

    IOW, I think that the ELDERS were playing t-ball and Karen had a much deeper and professional team behind her.

    It makes all the difference which is why I long for people to get out of these authoritarian systems, stop with the bottle feeding brand formula and eat some meat.

  228. Melissa wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    An Attorney wrote:
    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.
    Hasn’t challenged it YET. This story is all still very fresh. I would imagine that there are things on all sides that are still unknown. If something like that were to come to light, I would certainly expect confession and repentance.
    Much like the “confession and repentance” shown in the TVC “apology?”

    I saw repentance and confession…although repentance is an ongoing work, so only time will truly tell. I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for you.

  229. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    So waiting until the investigation was complete before making private business public is a bad thing?

    The guy had already admitted to his wife that he looked at child abuse images online and had fondled kids when he was a kid. SIM was informed, then SIM told TVC.

    What was there to investigate?

    The minute a guy admits to his spouse he’s looking at pedo content, you don’t waste time making sure he has no access to children and maybe parents of any kids he was around previously are informed.

  230. Haitch wrote:

    heh heh, I’ve had much mirth reading this.

    Sometimes a little laughter can help defuse excess pressure. Happy it made you laugh. BillM is very astute to make that connection with Godwin.

  231. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    You seem to buy into what ever you are told not being a covenant member. I doubt very seriously members have serious input into spending, voting line items or know how much all the leader/staff salaries are. These caste system churches don’t have that much respect for the pew sitters. They are built on the leaders knowing what is best for them.

  232. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Actually, I believe it was Matt Younger that brought up the discipline angle…according to the covenant. Chandler, while the lead teaching pastor, is not in charge of the Dallas Campus but rather an Elder in the TVC body as a whole. I’d not be surprised to find that some uncomfortable conversations are taking place between the elders and the Dallas campus pastors.

    No doubt about the difficult conversations. However, I am not buying the rule that Matt is the Lead/Senior Pastor until everything goes kablooie, in which case he knew nothink! Nothink! Nope, he sowed the weed seed, cultivated the garden, watered, and fertilized it. And now we see what the ground has brought forth: thorns and thistles. If he is so gungho about his leadership, then fine. Take point and lead.

  233. Gram3 wrote:

    Cats are popular, apparently. They are definitely not saved.

    I’ve heard it said that all dogs go to heaven but I’m inclined to think puppies come from the other place. Yeah they’re cute, but oh my.

  234. @ Bill M:

    I should think so! :o)

    I can only have non shedding dogs so we had had a bichon/schnauzer mix (cutest thing you ever saw but a total reprobate) and a mini schnauzer with nothing but class.

  235. Lydia wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    You seem to buy into what ever you are told not being a covenant member. I doubt very seriously members have serious input into spending, voting line items or know how much all the leader/staff salaries are. These caste system churches don’t have that much respect for the pew sitters. They are built on the leaders knowing what is best for them.

    I’ve been in on the voting sessions…just didn’t have a vote to cast as I’m not a covenant member.

  236. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.

    Are you concerned about any potential victims (young children exposed to Jordan) at that church and them receiving grace?

    Are you concerned about that church showing Karen grace?

  237. Law Prof wrote:

    There is a certain strain (A29, SGM, NFI) that is virtually indistinguishable.

    Jonathan Leeman is very disappointed that you left 9Marks out of the BoyzClub.

  238. Law Prof wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    Albuquerque Blue wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^
    Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.
    I forgive you.

    Heretic!

    You made a typo! “Hair-e-tic”

  239. A good article on how to deal with pedophiles in the church: http://wineskins.org/2014/04/08/what-place-do-pedophiles-have-in-the-church/

    An excerpt from it: “I believe that, while pedophiles can and should repent, the church is not in a position to welcome them into the assembly where children are present. In fact, we have written into our policy that any known sex offenders will be removed from regular worship and will be offered an alternative worship with a group of adults only.”

  240. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Nor do I care, since I don’t believe you have the first clue what you’re talking about. Their asking for people to love and welcome them in no way means they weren’t already taking precautions behind the scenes

    That is a mighty big chance and risk you’re taking.

    The sad thing is, it’s apparently because you are heavily invested in a church. I do not get the intense devotion.

    And it’s to the point you’d be willing to make a lazy assumption, “I’m sure the church has plenty of safe guards in place, so I won’t take responsibility for my own children or keep an eye on them.” Nobody is ever going to look after your kids as well as you do.

  241. Bill M wrote:

    so that puts me firmly in the DogFaith camp.

    Yes, but do you follow strict or good faith subscription? When you answer that question, we will proceed to the next level where you may state any reservations or scruples that you have.

  242. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Actually, I believe it was Matt Younger that brought up the discipline angle…according to the covenant. Chandler, while the lead teaching pastor, is not in charge of the Dallas Campus but rather an Elder in the TVC body as a whole. I’d not be surprised to find that some uncomfortable conversations are taking place between the elders and the Dallas campus pastors.
    No doubt about the difficult conversations. However, I am not buying the rule that Matt is the Lead/Senior Pastor until everything goes kablooie, in which case he knew nothink! Nothink! Nope, he sowed the weed seed, cultivated the garden, watered, and fertilized it. And now we see what the ground has brought forth: thorns and thistles. If he is so gungho about his leadership, then fine. Take point and lead.

    He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader. The elders and pastors even plan out what texts he preaches on…something they plan at the beginning of each year. I’m not saying he doesn’t lead or isn’t where the buck ultimately stops. I’m saying he’s aware that he needs to be reined in at times and has built a system that does that. I would imagine that Dallas was left to deal with things themselves UNTIL they saw the “abuse” term being bandied at which point they started looking at outside sources to see if that was true. Once they felt they had that confirmation, they moved to apologize and make things right. Had they waited longer, they would have looked more callous. Acting when they did somehow makes it spin. Not sure there was a way to confess and repent that anyone wouldn’t have flaw with, but I’m still glad they did.

  243. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    I read the e-mails, even before Karen was asked for her thoughts, and I agree with her assessment.

    Karen also didn’t seem emotional in her responses but very calm and level-headed, though had she been ranting or fuming, I’d not have automatically discounted her comments on that basis.

  244. Daisy wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.
    Are you concerned about any potential victims (young children exposed to Jordan) at that church and them receiving grace?
    Are you concerned about that church showing Karen grace?

    Of course. Which is why I believe they were right to confess and repent and right to put safeguards in place re: Jordan. I believe they INTENDED grace but their application (toward Karen) was hurtful and didn’t take into account the uniqueness of her situation.

  245. @ Shannon H.:

    Shannon, I think that is the only way. I remember reading something about this long ago and if I remember correctly it was from one of the authors of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. He said they announced it to the entire church. That people have a right to know.

    This is the sort of crime that will follow a person while they are on this earth. That is just the way it is. The more accepting we are of it and believe in their complete repentence, the more we might be playing right into their deceptive lifestyle. It is just too big of a risk to take.

  246. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I saw repentance and confession…although repentance is an ongoing work, so only time will truly tell. I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for you.

    It’s not about me. And it’s not about being enough. Many feel it wasn’t anything of substance to begin with. Hollow. I’d be curious what Karen Hinkley thinks and feels. I’d also be curious as to how the others with TVC stories feel not having ever gotten a pseudo-apology.

  247. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.

    We’re not talking about tastes and preferences regarding gender/sex. We are talking about the nature of humanity and whether their are classes of humans arranged in a hierarchy. Please do not confuse the issue nor minimize it. They are willing to throw away the Eternal Son’s status to salvage their own, so this is not trivial.

  248. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader

    Please. He is also on the speaking circuit, President of Acts 29 and so forth. People like having a celeb pastor. Oh yes, he is the leader. He is the face of TVC. It has been quite the launching pad for him, nationally.

  249. Gram3 wrote:

    Yes, but do you follow strict or good faith subscription? When you answer that question, we will proceed to the next level where you may state any reservations or scruples that you have.

    I come to it by free will and not by being part of the elect.

  250. Daisy wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    I read the e-mails, even before Karen was asked for her thoughts, and I agree with her assessment.
    Karen also didn’t seem emotional in her responses but very calm and level-headed, though had she been ranting or fuming, I’d not have automatically discounted her comments on that basis.

    If my comments made anyone think I was claiming “hysterical woman”, I apologize. I DO NOT think that. I only meant that no one is thinking as clearly as they might think they are in that trauma. Now, she had other counsel. Nothing wrong with that. At all. I only meant that she was coming off feeling betrayed and duped (and possibly stupid, because victims tend to blame themselves a bit, unfortunately) and suddenly was hearing a different response than she was ready for. I would think defenses would go up for anyone. That’s not hysteria. It’s self-protection. I get that. I only meant to say that, because they mishandled, it likely triggered a fight-or-flight type response and she chose not to meet with them. At that point, they should’ve recognized that, whatever their intent, she needed love and freedom more than counsel at that moment and let it go. As they did not, they wounded an already wounded woman further. And, so, needed to repent, no matter what their original intent may have been. I hope that clarifies somewhat what I meant. I didn’t mean for it to sound like she was too emotional to understand or communicate or anything. Only that emotions can make it wise to lean on counsel…and she did, just not the counsel they expect and thus a whirlwind of bad-handling and miscommunication from TVC and an internet full of folks casting doubt on the whole church. I don’t like it. But I get it…how it must seem from outside.

  251. Bill M wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    Where do you stand on the issue of cats and dogs?

    I prefer dogs, but that’s mainly due to cat allergies. I’ve loved a feline or two in my day.

  252. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader.

    Stop, you’re killing me. LOL, as the kids say. And put down that Kool-aid. Everything, and I do mean everything, is planned, monitored, reported, and analyzed at Central Office. No, I mean this. You are being totally naive. Chandler is the Brand and the draw at The Village and always has been. He was joined at the hip with Driscoll at Acts29. Let’s try to keep this discussion on the Reality Road and not take scenic flights of fancy.

  253. Bill M wrote:

    I come to it by free will and not by being part of the elect.

    I’m afraid your case goes directly to the SJC. I expect an expedited response in the next 4 years.

  254. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.
    We’re not talking about tastes and preferences regarding gender/sex. We are talking about the nature of humanity and whether their are classes of humans arranged in a hierarchy. Please do not confuse the issue nor minimize it. They are willing to throw away the Eternal Son’s status to salvage their own, so this is not trivial.

    We are talking about interpretation of scripture…something plenty of people disagree on. I’ve never heard anything taught at TVC to suggest that women are less than equal…only that they have different roles. I find no fault with anyone for disagreeing with that.

  255. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I get that. I only meant to say that, because they mishandled, it likely triggered a fight-or-flight type response and she chose not to meet with them.

    No, I think that their actions have proved that her response was quite rational and not at all a fight-or-flight reaction. Also, you keep using the word “mishandled.” That is not the most precise term to describe what has happened here. I guess “botched” doesn’t work either. They handled things exactly as we would have expected them within their framework, assumptions, ideology, and protocols. The problem was that their formula is wrong at a very fundamental level.

  256. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader.
    Stop, you’re killing me. LOL, as the kids say. And put down that Kool-aid. Everything, and I do mean everything, is planned, monitored, reported, and analyzed at Central Office. No, I mean this. You are being totally naive. Chandler is the Brand and the draw at The Village and always has been. He was joined at the hip with Driscoll at Acts29. Let’s try to keep this discussion on the Reality Road and not take scenic flights of fancy.

    I’m not trying to insult anyone. I would appreciate the same courtesy. You are entitled to believe what you like. I’m happy at my church. My family is happy. I’ve been there and walked there. There is certainly the desire in me to defend what I have seen and know to be good, but I can be content to agree to disagree and leave you in peace. I don’t want to be the one troubling the waters if minds are already made up.

  257. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I get that. I only meant to say that, because they mishandled, it likely triggered a fight-or-flight type response and she chose not to meet with them.
    No, I think that their actions have proved that her response was quite rational and not at all a fight-or-flight reaction. Also, you keep using the word “mishandled.” That is not the most precise term to describe what has happened here. I guess “botched” doesn’t work either. They handled things exactly as we would have expected them within their framework, assumptions, ideology, and protocols. The problem was that their formula is wrong at a very fundamental level.

    Again, we can agree to disagree. I don’t desire to argue with you further as neither of us seems moveable on the matter.

  258. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    she did, just not the counsel they expect and thus a whirlwind of bad-handling and miscommunication from TVC and an internet full of folks casting doubt on the whole church. I don’t like it. But I get it…how it must seem from outside.

    Making a bit of progress here. They did not expect her to have outside counsel because they have deluded themselves that they are the KeyKeepers, so it never occurred to them that a smart and Bereaneque woman might think for herself and consult people from outside the Groupthinktank. But she did, and these ELDERS became fools because they believed their own lies about themselves and their Spiritual Authority and proceeded to act accordingly.

    The internet is hardly full of folks calling out Matt Chandler. There may be isolated non-story stories like the one at CT that reads like a press release. At least as much as I could read of it. It was the same stuff that MPT published, so I’m calling press release.

  259. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    I don’t know anyone in this personally.

    But I’ve read both sides and Karen still sounds more credible to me, and TVC, only after getting blow back, has started to release these apologetic press releases that don’t sound too heart-felt but more CYA.

    Also, are you implying that Karen was lying in her statements here:
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

    I read transcripts of Matt Chandler’s melt down over anonymous critics, too. He doesn’t sound like an all-around nice guy or very approachable.

  260. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    she did, just not the counsel they expect and thus a whirlwind of bad-handling and miscommunication from TVC and an internet full of folks casting doubt on the whole church. I don’t like it. But I get it…how it must seem from outside.
    Making a bit of progress here. They did not expect her to have outside counsel because they have deluded themselves that they are the KeyKeepers, so it never occurred to them that a smart and Bereaneque woman might think for herself and consult people from outside the Groupthinktank. But she did, and these ELDERS became fools because they believed their own lies about themselves and their Spiritual Authority and proceeded to act accordingly.
    The internet is hardly full of folks calling out Matt Chandler. There may be isolated non-story stories like the one at CT that reads like a press release. At least as much as I could read of it. It was the same stuff that MPT published, so I’m calling press release.

    It may have been. I wouldn’t know. I do know, however, that the time has come for me to start dinner and prep for a long day at Dallas Comicon tomorrow and again Sunday (with all the kids.) So, I’ll bid you adieu and wish you well, Gram3…as well as all the rest. It’s been interesting. I will be at church tomorrow night for the apology, though, so we’ll see how that goes. It should be available on YouTube by Tuesday or Wednesday. Have a good weekend, folks.

  261. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’m not trying to insult anyone.

    Please re-read your initial comments. I am not trying to insult you as much as wake you up to the way things are. Not the way you think they are, but the way they really are. I have been in your position in that respect. Several times.

    The Authoritarian Church has bodies littering the landscape who were once as convinced as you are that they are in the Right Church with the Right Leadership. Until they found out they were not in the Right Church. I’ve been trying to get you to zoom out historically and Biblically and examine whether or not Authoritarian Church has anything whatsoever to do with Christ and whether the Spiritual Authorities look like Jesus. I think that is a very difficult case to make. This can be a wake-up call or you can hit snooze and go back to sleep. Your choice, because I’m not authoritarian.

  262. Daisy wrote:

    @ Texas Truthsayer:
    I don’t know anyone in this personally.
    But I’ve read both sides and Karen still sounds more credible to me, and TVC, only after getting blow back, has started to release these apologetic press releases that don’t sound too heart-felt but more CYA.
    Also, are you implying that Karen was lying in her statements here:
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html
    I read transcripts of Matt Chandler’s melt down over anonymous critics, too. He doesn’t sound like an all-around nice guy or very approachable.

    Before I go start dinner…the “narcissistic zeroes” quote was my favorite. I found it right after I started attending. I find nothing wrong with wanting people within your own congregation to sign their names to complaints. Want to be anonymous online or whatever? Great. We have to protect our privacy from people we don’t know…but your pastor or elders? Anon emails to them are just opportunities to trash talk without the ability for them to address the issue. He’s apologized for the bluntness of that comment (made to his own community) but I find that bluntness refreshing…and anon emails/texts to be spineless. But, if you don’t care for it, you needed attend. I get that it’s not for everyone. Have a good weekend.

  263. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    The absolute smartest response was not to meet with them. She dodged a star chamber. That is my number 1 advice to folks in authoritarian systems who come to disagree with them.

    She had probably figured out to some extent how they would react to the situation based upon their teaching about marriage, roles and divorce.

    Evidently, viewing child porn is not that big of a deal to them. Their subsequent actions with protecting Jordon’s reputation from parents with children for 3 months, proved that.

  264. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Yes, they always present the anons as “equals” when it is convenient. The anons do not have a bully pulpit with thousands drinking in the grape flavored kool aid every week.

    They want to know who they are so they can “care” for them like they did Karen.

  265. sam wrote:

    Translation: ALL pedos are welcome here! no true repentance or counseling needed, we will even screw your victims if they insult you

    Thank you. Very true.

    Every time TVC or Duggar defenders on social media keep minimizing child sex abuse by going on and on about how “we’re all sinners,” “we all need grace,” “You must not believe the Gospel can heal pedos,” “even pedos deserve Christian fellowship” etc-

    I can just imagine there’s a child predator observing all this on the internet, looking up local churches in his area to start attending, because Christian kids are such easy targets, because their parents are way too trusting.

  266. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    but I find that bluntness refreshing…and anon emails/texts to be spineless. But, if you don’t care for it, you needed attend. I get that it’s not for everyone. Have a good weekend.

    What some call bluntness, others call arrogance of which you appear to greatly exude on this forum. Makes sense why you’d see it as bluntness and welcome it…

  267. Lydia wrote:

    They want to know who they are so they can “care” for them like they did Karen.

    Mao did the same thing in the years leading up to the Cultural Revolution. Loosen up and “Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom” so they show themselves, then sic the Red Guard on them.

  268. Bill M wrote:

    I’ve heard it said that all dogs go to heaven but I’m inclined to think puppies come from the other place. Yeah they’re cute, but oh my.

    They’re Dog Little Kids.
    What did you expect?

  269. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Dallasite wrote:
    That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
    I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

    Just coming out of lurking to agree with this. I am a former Christian, now atheist. My reasons have little to do with the behavior of Christians.

    FWIW, when a Christian is kind to me I attribute it to them being kind, not to their religion. Same with unkindness – when a Christian is unkind I don’t think, “Well that just goes to show you Christianity is a crock!” I assume they are having a bad day, and if it seems long-lived, I assume they are struggling with deeper pathology. (Which isn’t to say that some Christian belief systems are better for society than others IMO.)

    Good and bad behavior just doesn’t seem correlated to Christianity in my experience, so it doesn’t make sense to me to either blame the religion or give it credit overall. People are people, and they behave the way they do for many reasons, most of which are more interesting than whether they are a Christian or not.

  270. I agree with you, there are “bad apples” in every group, and I think everyone should be vigilant no matter the context.
    However it is the Word that is the “stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”…God’s people are not supposed to be the stone that causes someone to stumble and turn away from God. It is offensive to protect the pedophile and re-victimize the victims of Jordan Root, it points people away from God and turns the focus on the terrible actions and non-Biblical beliefs of TVC.
    It is not a matter of caring too much about what people think or about appearances, it is about NOT doing what God has specifically told us NOT to do or be…especially not to do it under the un-Biblical reasoning of men who think they are infallible because they are in positions of power.
    @ Albuquerque Blue:

  271. @ sam: Oh I do not think he should ever be around children again, I meant he could help without actually being out in the field himself. I believe he should be in prison.

  272. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Before I go start dinner…the “narcissistic zeroes” quote was my favorite. I found it right after I started attending. I find nothing wrong with wanting people within your own congregation to sign their names to complaints. Want to be anonymous online or whatever? Great. We have to protect our privacy from people we don’t know…but your pastor or elders? Anon emails to them are just opportunities to trash talk without the ability for them to address the issue.

    Well we certainly know at that church why people don’t sign their names to letters and emails. Look what happened to Karen? Written about -in an 8 page missive no less – and sent to about 6000 people.

  273. sam wrote:

    js wrote:
    If what I’ve said is totally untrue of you, let it roll. If there is truth in it, consider it and adjust.
    do you want me to appreciate your coming in here and telling me what to do, and to appreciate your disregard of what i said and your turning it back onto me? I dont.

    Sam, I am sorry we have reached an impasse. I am having trouble seeing where I told you what to do. I stated up front everything as my opinion, affirmed that I could be wrong and even if right did not say my words apply to everyone here. I respect your right to your opinion and am not trying to turn anything back on you. You can evaluate what I said and dismiss it or consider it, that’s all I’m saying.

  274. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    What I am talking about is not nearly as serious as the larger TVC situation but how we interact with one another is important.
    You have not given any clear examples of what responses are wrong or how. Are you speaking of tone? Words used? what? Give exact clear examples or no one knows what you are talking about.
    I have been interacting with YRR bullies for years and I admit fully, I am not sweet about it anymore. They view that sort of stance as any bully would and usually stick to ad homenim arguments or declarations of “no proof”! It is the most twisted world I have ever been around. And the thinking is so ingrained I almost feel as if the entire movement will have to go to cult debriefing to change it.
    that movement is based upon bully principles with cheesy language that tries to mask it. You stand up to bullies. Bullies pick on the unprotected and vulnerable just as we are seeing at TVC.

    The plea for specific examples is a favorite tactic of the YRR, actually. I just ask you as you read through the threads to see if you don’t see a good bit of the kinds of things I mentioned in my original post. If not, fine, we see it differently and it is acceptable to see it differently. I was bringing my opinion and don’t mind disagreement and am glad to have the opportunity to express my opinion in this forum.

    There’s a way to stand up to bullies that doesn’t include becoming one.

  275. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.

    Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.
    We’re not talking about tastes and preferences regarding gender/sex. We are talking about the nature of humanity and whether their are classes of humans arranged in a hierarchy. Please do not confuse the issue nor minimize it. They are willing to throw away the Eternal Son’s status to salvage their own, so this is not trivial.

    Also not trivial is the inability to deal with adults who are not married. Complementarianism does NOTHING for me as a single, middle-aged, never married, childless adult female with a job, a mortgage and a cat. And I had a father (RIP daddy) who raised me to be self reliant. He would never have been my “headship,” and he would have looked down in disdain on any sort of arrangement where I was less because I am female.

    TVC is great as long as you fit within a specific mold. But be not of the right groupings (married, well-off) and I bet it’s a horribly uncomfortable mold.

  276. Law Prof wrote:

    js wrote:
    The way to overcome it is openness, discussion and loving interaction. We may still disagree in the end but it will be a much more productive disagreement.
    I thought getting in another’s face and being blunt was “loving interaction”. If it’s not, then Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, James would have a lot of explaining to do. But of course, they do not. The ones who have a lot of explaining to do are those who come as angels of light with all this faux “loving interaction”.

    To me there is a place for getting in one another’s face, particularly if we have some sort of relationship with one another. Eagle’s earlier words in this thread are right, I think. It is better if we can talk about things with people in person. The online world is a little bit of a different animal and since we are so prone in this kind of forum to talk in extremes I thought I would bring up an issue I was observing in TVC threads. Again, as I said before, it is by no means the big issue hear but I want to believe that Christians of differing persuasions and theological convictions can come together in a civil way. There is a huge difference between syrupy sweet faux love and authentic communication from a place of grace and truth. I am aiming for the second and have no interest in manipulation.

    I also think it is worth bringing in the biblical balance of the gentleness of Jesus, of Paul, or John or many other men and women in the Bible who are known for humility rather than hubris.

  277. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:
    surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters?
    Oh, I totally and freely acknowledge that my interest is in tearing down the System that is a strangler fig on the real Fig Tree. It is a false gospel that has become popular and profitable.
    Yes, I am definitely interested in cutting it down, digging it out, and burning the pieces so that new life can spring out of the ground that has been consumed by this.

    That’s all fine and totally up to you. But do you acknowledge that this stance might bring with it a built-in bias against these folks that would keep you from seeing anything good? Is it possible that Matt Chandler could be a blessing to many people or all they all deluded?

  278. Gram3 wrote:

    @ js:
    And I should add that I have been clear, I think, about what the problems are in the System. While I don’t believe that you have been as forthcoming about the positives that you see in the System. Or how those resemble the template we have been given in the life of Christ and in the Bible.

    In any discussion we have we will have to work hard to define our terms from the beginning. I would not take the word “System” for one, for it does not describe what I believe. We would also have to carefully define hierarchy and some of the other words you often use. Finally, I do not subscribe to ESS or to signing church covenants so that wouldn’t be a part of the discussion I would be interested in either. When this TVC begins to blow over I will be glad to have a discussion with you here. Maybe our interactions can be a model of the spirit of disagreement with grace and truth that I have been pointing to in this post.

  279. @ js:
    I see their basic paradigm of the Kingdom being corrupt. That does not mean that they are totally corrupt or cannot do good things or that people cannot benefit. What it does mean is that they will continue to oppress God’s people because authoritarianism will inevitably create disasters like this one. I say that the System is anti-Christian, and that is not the same thing as each individual who propagates the System not being a Christian. I hope we can keep those distinctions. I want the System destroyed. I do not want people destroyed, including any of the Gospel Glitterati. I want them to find true religion and not this false religion that is so grievous.

  280. Gram3 wrote:

    @ js:
    I see their basic paradigm of the Kingdom being corrupt. That does not mean that they are totally corrupt or cannot do good things or that people cannot benefit. What it does mean is that they will continue to oppress God’s people because authoritarianism will inevitably create disasters like this one. I say that the System is anti-Christian, and that is not the same thing as each individual who propagates the System not being a Christian. I hope we can keep those distinctions. I want the System destroyed. I do not want people destroyed, including any of the Gospel Glitterati. I want them to find true religion and not this false religion that is so grievous.

    That makes sense, thanks.

  281. js wrote:

    I would not take the word “System” for one, for it does not describe what I believe. We would also have to carefully define hierarchy and some of the other words you often use.

    I’m not saying that you subscribe to the System, but there is an authoritarian system where an elite rules over all the others. This is not the way that the Father has set up his household of faith where we are all brothers and sisters and one in Christ. That is inconsistent with a static hierarchy between classes among all of the brothers and sisters.

    I don’t know what is so difficult about understanding hierarchy in the context of Complementarianism. The question is quite simple, really. Did God ordain males to rule over females as part of his original creation or did he not? I say he did not, because there is no textual evidence for such hierarchy. What there is is a long tradition of male hierarchy which makes some people *see* hierarchy which is not in the text. I think we should employ sound reasoning and sound and a consistent hermeneutic to get at the best approximation of what God intended by what he said in his book. I find no such sound reasoning nor consistent hermeneutic among the writings of the Complementarians. ISTM that claiming a position of irrevocable rule over another based on sex or race or class or any other marker is a very big claim to make and requires substantial proof. If you can point me to the text, not the speculative readings of the text, but the actual text where God ordained any hierarchy between classes of humans or between brothers and sisters in the church or between husbands and wives in the home, then please do so. I’ve been asking for the magic texts for a long time, but so far no luck.

  282. mirele wrote:

    Complementarianism does NOTHING for me as a single, middle-aged, never married, childless adult female with a job, a mortgage and a cat. And I had a father (RIP daddy) who raised me to be self reliant. He would never have been my “headship,” and he would have looked down in disdain on any sort of arrangement where I was less because I am female.

    Well, it used to say something about you, namely that you need a man to be your head. That could be your dad, your brother, your pastor or someone. That no longer works, so they have fallen back to the marriage emphasis. When you think about it from a marketing POV, that actually makes a lot of sense. Of course, we shouldn’t be talking about what sells but what God has said and how Jesus would have us act and think. That does not move product nearly as well as the magical formula of “she won’t nag you” and “he will be responsible.” That is pretty much what their selling points boil down to.

    My dad sounds like your dad. He wanted me to be everything I could be and he sacrificed to make that possible. He was a true servant, unlike the posers who talk about servant-leadership but really only mean the ruling leadership part.

  283. dee wrote:

    js wrote:
    That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.
    This is the blog of the Deebs. If you have a problem, speak to us and tell us what we are doing wrong. Show us with links-not with innuendoes.
    As for our commenters, we have Christians, non Christians and atheists who visit here.I listen to all sides and rarely delete a comment. You can lecture people on “how to love online” but I prefer to let them speak and listen to their thoughts, no matter how harsh.
    I am not running a Bible study here. Instead, I am trying to get a conversation going that involves a lot more that BFFs who all agree on everything anyway. I want to hear more than I want to tell people how and what to say.
    If you want nice” discussion. go on over to TGC blogs which delete a whole bunch of comments, especially as they relate to child sex abuse issues at SGM.But, they are nice-I looooooove this post-type comments.

    I have made this same point elsewhere on this blog (most recently the Piper/C. Peter Wagner/ Duck Dynasty/ Robert Morris article), namely that there are certain personalities who seem to be able to do no right in the eyes of many and because of their past actions and theological convictions, I think they are seen as the enemy by many people here. It is my opinion and only that and it could be wrong. Conversation normally thrives where different perspectives meet with a desire to really listen to and understand the other. Without pushback and different perspectives, it is not much of a conversation, it is an echo chamber. I for one think the Texas Truthsayer guy on this thread added to the conversation. He was not belligerent with people and he brought a different perspective, even if most here would disagree with him.

  284. js wrote:

    The plea for specific examples is a favorite tactic of the YRR, actually.

    You were being covert agressive in your psuedo accusations. Now you are implying someone is being a bully. You want to call people out but don’t want to explain what needs to be called out. Sorry I don’t do vague whether you think that is YRR or not. In case no one has ever told you, vague mass rebukes never work.

    And in case you did not know, Texas truthslayer and I had a bit of a twitter convo with some others and I can assure he was not nearly as nice as he is here. He is trying to sound much more neutral here than he was on twitter.

    What you are witnessing here is arguing, discussing and debating about right and wrong. Everything from sarcasm to humor is used. You might want to skip the comments that make you uncomfortable.

  285. js wrote:

    I also think it is worth bringing in the biblical balance of the gentleness of Jesus, of Paul, or John or many other men and women in the Bible who are known for humility rather than hubris.

    White washed tombs was gentle? They should go all the way and emasculate themselves is gentle?

    There is a time and place for calling things for what they are: Evil.

    That is how I view guys like Chandler, Driscoll and Mahaney, etc. There is nothing for me to accept or come together with them about. I am not interested in playing the unity game with them. I am hoping people come out from them.

  286. JS, one more thing. When the charlatans lose control of the one way narrative they always resort to “how” the other side communicates about the scandal. They will focus on tone, words, claim people are not acting Christian. It is a deflection tactic. They are all concerned about people sinning when calling them out for evil. It is hilarious. I know the playbook well. All they are doing is desperately trying to get control of the narrative. Chandler did this when he said that tripe about people insulting God. (He feels insulted so that is the same as insulting God in his mind)

    I think it is healthy to get it all out in the open. No one here is threatening them bodily harm. No one is looting their churches. No one is throwing rocks through windows.

  287. There are a lot of comments here that I couldn’t read, particularly some by an individual confused as to the meaning of ‘truth’, who intends to malign the name of the great state of Texas, for one, but I digress. I wanted to re-post what I have shared on Facebook about this protest, which I am attending. I posted this press release (which I received as an email from SNAP leaders), in a couple of closed groups I manage that are aimed towards community-initiated child advocacy efforts. I used one line from this in a Twitter status, too, so if you see that on the Twitter-verse, hi, that’s me.

    I have attended a few similar events at other places of worship over the years, and I can tell you with good faith that it is indeed an informational rather than confrontational demonstration. There have been many discussions on the mishandling of this case by TVC leadership. That is not what we are there to talk about. We simply want to inform this community of the very real danger within their midst, as TVC has not taken proper steps to protect its children and inform parents of the seriousness of the situation. I would encourage you to also read this post: [link to “She Speaks”- Watchkeep post], which paints a very clear picture of the manipulative, dangerous behavior of Jordan Root, and points to the need for this event to occur in the first place.

    On a personal note, this case hits very close to home for me, as I know firsthand the pain of being abused by a religious leader. All I want to do is protect children that are at risk, and give a voice to those that may have already been victimized, to let them know they are not alone, and it’s safe to speak up. I stand up today, because someone else stood up for me. And I’m ready to do the same for these little ones. Will you join us?

    (Feel free to re-use my words elsewhere, particularly for Dallas people if you are issuing a call for people to join us.)

    So, to reiterate, for those commenters here that would claim this protest is unnecessarily confrontational, or, essentially, that we’re making too much noise- I don’t know your intentions in posting here, but really, the bottom line is, there are children who need protecting. I feel I must also take a stand for those who have been spiritually abused- which includes many, many adults (see: Watchkeep’s post on stories from TVC, for starters), but I know many Villagers don’t see it this way. At the bare minimum, however, there are families at TVC that need to know the true scope of this issue, not the minimized, generalized, watered-down version of events put forth by TVC leadership. I find it very hard to believe that there aren’t local victims of Jordan Root, and it is critical for any child who has been abused to see adults taking a stand and saying that this is wrong, and there are people out there who care. At the very least, we should be concerned for the ‘very least’ of us, the children who have no voice, who need our help.

  288. Lydia wrote:

    JS, one more thing. When the charlatans lose control of the one way narrative they always resort to “how” the other side communicates about the scandal. They will focus on tone, words, claim people are not acting Christian. It is a deflection tactic. They are all concerned about people sinning when calling them out for evil. It is hilarious. I know the playbook well. All they are doing is desperately trying to get control of the narrative. Chandler did this when he said that tripe about people insulting God. (He feels insulted so that is the same as insulting God in his mind)
    I think it is healthy to get it all out in the open. No one here is threatening them bodily harm. No one is looting their churches. No one is throwing rocks through windows.

    Everybody is trying to control the narrative. That’s why an all-positive or all-negative approach is detrimental. It is just spin. It obscures the truth to paint Chandler as a hero and it obscures the truth to paint him as evil. The truth has got to be somewhere in between.

  289. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    I also think it is worth bringing in the biblical balance of the gentleness of Jesus, of Paul, or John or many other men and women in the Bible who are known for humility rather than hubris.
    White washed tombs was gentle? They should go all the way and emasculate themselves is gentle?
    There is a time and place for calling things for what they are: Evil.
    That is how I view guys like Chandler, Driscoll and Mahaney, etc. There is nothing for me to accept or come together with them about. I am not interested in playing the unity game with them. I am hoping people come out from them.

    Of course it is a both/and, like I said. Paul said his appearance was not impressive and that he wasn’t particularly threatening to people. Jesus said of Himself, “I am meek and lowly in heart.”

    I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.

  290. js wrote:

    That’s why an all-positive or all-negative approach is detrimental. It is just spin. It obscures the truth to paint Chandler as a hero and it obscures the truth to paint him as evil. The truth has got to be somewhere in between.

    How the TVC leadership handled this was not just wrong or a miscommunication or even a mistake. It was evil. From embracing the Pedophile with instant repentance to placing Karen in church discipline after she resigned to refusing to tell their members the truth about Root for 3 months. Not to mention their subtle blackmail of SIM.

    Pointing that out is not declaring he is all evil. He could be deceived or he could be deceiving others on purpose. (See 1 Tim 1) He built a system that is presenting a false view of Jesus Christ and the scriptures.

    Sorry if that is not positive. There are such things as negative truth. I am not Norman Vincent Peale for crying out loud. I get a bit sick of the totalitarian niceness that

  291. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    The plea for specific examples is a favorite tactic of the YRR, actually.
    You were being covert agressive in your psuedo accusations. Now you are implying someone is being a bully. You want to call people out but don’t want to explain what needs to be called out. Sorry I don’t do vague whether you think that is YRR or not. In case no one has ever told you, vague mass rebukes never work.
    What you are witnessing here is arguing, discussing and debating about right and wrong. Everything from sarcasm to humor is used. You might want to skip the comments that make you uncomfortable.

    You’re right about the YRR comment. It was a cheap shot and I apologize. I had second thoughts before I clicked and should have listened to that. The bully part stands, though and is actually what I’m driving at with all this. The danger in opposing anything is that you become what you abhor (heavy-handed, caustic, unreasonable, harsh) and the very things you decry you end up doing yourself. My posts have been an effort not to step back from the serious situation of TVC or write it off because “I don’t like your tone.” I am talking about a bigger issue of how we conduct ourselves online. You want specifics, again I just refer you to these threads. Either you see it or you don’t. If you don’t, OK. There just has to be a way to bring the fruit of the Spirit to bear on how we deal with these controversies. If I am Christian, I can’t excuse myself from godly character because of the children. If I am Christian, godly character can’t allow me to ignore the children. It has to be both, IMO.

  292. js wrote:

    I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.

    That last part is telling.

    When you think of the Beatitudes ask yourself a simple question. Do you honestly think Jesus was telling the average Jew they must allow the Jewish religious leaders to slap them over and over? That they must carry their coats an extra mile if they demand it? And so on?

    Who do you think Jesus was talking about?

    I mean do you honestly think Jesus was advocating they be spiritally abused by the their own religious leaders and put up with it?

  293. js wrote:

    The danger in opposing anything is that you become what you abhor (heavy-handed, caustic, unreasonable, harsh) and the very things you decry you end up doing yourself.

    Not possible. I have no followers. I do not make a living off Jesus Christ. I do not make a living telling others how and what to think about Jesus Christ. I do not make a living telling people how to interpret scriptures and have no way to enforce anything. I do not believe in membership covenants. I have no bully pulpit except I am allowed to comment here along with many others.

    You can simply not read my comments. I have no influence or power in your life at all. I am not influencing anyone in your life you have to contend with.

    But I will say this. I would much rather deal with a truthful caustic jerk that I know exactly where they stand than any of the vague, verbose and cheesy communicators that are coming out of evangelical Christianity. I mean, how many people there understood that covenant meant they would have to ask permission of their leaders to leave a pedophile? They are not direct. They are not honest or trustworthy. But boy do they do cheesy nice. It is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

  294. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.
    That last part is telling.
    When you think of the Beatitudes ask yourself a simple question. Do you honestly think Jesus was telling the average Jew they must allow the Jewish religious leaders to slap them over and over? That they must carry their coats an extra mile if they demand it? And so on?
    Who do you think Jesus was talking about?
    I mean do you honestly think Jesus was advocating they be spiritally abused by the their own religious leaders and put up with it?

    Of course not. “Blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness’ sake.” Every one of those Beatitudes should be what we are moving toward in our lives and what God is progressively making us. Matt Chandler should be going there, wathcbloggers should be going there, commenters should be going there (if they are Christians) and I should be going there. My prayer is that these events will move Chandler and TVC elders toward greater conformity to these ideals. And I hope in our interactions about these controversies that we will also emulate these Beatitudes. Every one of them. So we come humbly, recognizing our own sinfulness and limitations even as we mourn the sin against Karen and the sins of Jordan and TVC elders. And this blend of self-awareness and the awareness of the sins of others causes us to approach these matters with both meekness and a hunger and thirst for righteousness. And as we search for answers we don’t forget to search our own hearts that we are pure in heart and to extend mercy to those who need it (which in this case is everybody involved, even when there are remaining consequences which will need to be faced) and I think we need to work for peace among believers, which doesn’t mean we ever take a strong stand or even use strong words but our ultimate goal is peace. And then finally we recognize that this approach will be largely rejected . . . but that’s ok because the rewards mentioned in Matthew 5:1-12 are worth it. I want it to be possible to live that life online and offline and I believe it is possible.

  295. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    The second he tries (and he might for all I know) to convince anyone that he’s better and doesn’t need restriction is the second he needs to go.

    I don’t know about Jordan, but your own church is already convinced he’s gotten better. Their standards for improvement seem pretty naive and lax.

    Excerpt:

    Another example is in regards to Jordan’s treatment.

    TVC dismissed recommendations from SIM that Jordan needed, at minimum, intensive therapy from someone who has experience working with these issues.

    I was told at one point that in-patient treatment had been recommended and that Jordan should attend a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting every day until he began that treatment.

    Instead, TVC had Jordan see Eric Bryant, a member of The Village Church who is a part of North Texas Christian Counseling.

    On his bio, Eric does not list experience treating pedophilia or sexual addiction.

    Jordan went to counseling once a week for the first couple of months after his return, at which point Eric felt he was doing well enough to begin going only once every other week instead. I am unsure as to whether or how often Jordan is currently going to counseling.

    Source:
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

  296. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    So we should only show grace to those who show grace. Got it. Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

    You don’t believe law breakers should be held accountable for their actions or that pedophiles should not be permitted around children? How is putting children at risk showing grace to the children?

    I don’t think your church has shown much grace to Karen.

  297. Lydia wrote:

    From my view of watching this train wreck of YRR/Acts 29 for the last 15 years or so, they have a very different view of sexual sin. Especially when it involves children. I do think it stems from their caste system view. Jordon becomes most important in this scenerio by the fact he is male. The children Jordon viewed are throw aways because grace to the male is most important. Karen is “rebellious” and does not know her place.

    I wonder, if the children victims had been male, do you think TVC would have reacted any differently, or they just don’t care because Jared’s favored target group was girls?

  298. js wrote:

    The truth has got to be somewhere in between.

    I don’t think that you mean that. Certainly that is not a principle. Certainly we can say that elders applying a dehumanizing system and abusing an already abused woman is wrong, can’t we? I mean, is decency that difficult to figure out?

  299. js wrote:

    My posts have been an effort not to step back from the serious situation of TVC or write it off because “I don’t like your tone.” I am talking about a bigger issue of how we conduct ourselves online. You want specifics, again I just refer you to these threads.

    Your sermons are becoming redundant.

  300. js wrote:

    I am talking about a bigger issue of how we conduct ourselves online. You want specifics, again I just refer you to these threads.

    The content of these threads and our style is what you find most troubling in this situation? Seriously?

    What you call caustic and bitter, I call straightforward and honest and plain. Blunt. Direct. I don’t need to fit into your idea of my proper role and my proper demeanor. Deal with the big issues, and stop re-directing the discussion into things which are a matter of taste. I imagine if you had been force-fed your inferiority by professed men of God who claim to honor the text, then perhaps you might be a little more direct about your objections as well. Please spare us the pious words.

  301. js wrote:

    Everybody is trying to control the narrative.

    Prove it. Where have we framed a narrative that Chandler is totally bad or wrong? We have addressed a toxic theology which he promotes. Please keep those ideas separate and stop implying that this is one big ad hom against Chandler. We have presented arguments and facts. Refute them if you would, please.

  302. Law Prof wrote:

    When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt

    Does anyone have a link to the Chandler audio of him yelling about anonymous posters being narcissistic zeroes? 🙂

  303. js wrote:

    I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture.

    Women should be meek while men inherit the earth. Women should be peacemakers and shut up. Is that what you mean? If not, then why not just state plainly what you do mean?

  304. Lydia wrote:

    They do not seem to have given much thought at all to the child victims.

    Nope. Currently engaged in a Twitter conversation with Matt Rollings who seems far more concerned about proving a point and being ‘right’ than about any victim. It’s sickening. There are young victims that don’t have a voice, or a platform for that voice, and they are being silenced. For what?!? To prove some petty point? Because it would not be gentle or meek or what-have-you to say, ‘hey, there’s a predator in our midst, and the church leaders are protecting him, just FYI’?

  305. js wrote:
    Everybody is trying to control the narrative.
    Prove it. Where have we framed a narrative that Chandler is totally bad or wrong? We have addressed a toxic theology which he promotes. Please keep those ideas separate and stop implying that this is one big ad hom against Chandler. We have presented arguments and facts. Refute them if you would, please.

    Just one example from a few posts above . . .
    Gram3 wrote:

    There is a time and place for calling things for what they are: Evil.
    That is how I view guys like Chandler, Driscoll and Mahaney, etc.

  306. @ dee:

    Love love LOVE this! Such truth, Pastor Dee!

    Would I get moderated if I started posting like this regularly?

  307. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:
    I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture.
    Women should be meek while men inherit the earth. Women should be peacemakers and shut up. Is that what you mean? If not, then why not just state plainly what you do mean?

    All of us should be meek, peacemakers, etc. simple as that.

  308. @ Gram3:

    I have been doing this a long time and recognize the js types. They start out as “concerned” for the victims and try to gain trust of other commenters. Then they start subtley on the sin leveling with commenters. If you push back, they become more and more relentless until it becomes obvious to more folks what the real game is. Seen it a thousand times.

    We are in sin for not speaking nicer of those who protect pedophiles and spiritually abuse others.

    These are the people at church that if you tell them the pastor raped your daughter they would expect you to find something nice to say about him, too. They think that is “Christian”. I call it the “totalitarian niceness”.

  309. @ js:

    You have totally missed the very important cultural context. Jesus was not advocating that they be spiritually abused by their religious leaders. He was not teaching them to be door mats to spiritual abuse. Although many controlling leaders whip out the Beatitudes for just that.

  310. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’m only saying I haven’t seen it at TVC in any of my experiences

    I’ve seen in public how TVC church is dealing with Karen, how they are dealing with people who are married to pedos who want out of the marriage, and how they keep stalking someone who told them to leave her alone.

    I’m not sure I have to attend that church in person and be buddy buddies with the preacher (who refers to some of his flock as “narcissistic zeros”) to verify my current views.

  311. Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

    I like both cats and dogs, so I guess I’m Switzerland in this, neutral.

  312. Gram3 wrote:

    js wrote:
    The truth has got to be somewhere in between.
    I don’t think that you mean that. Certainly that is not a principle. Certainly we can say that elders applying a dehumanizing system and abusing an already abused woman is wrong, can’t we? I mean, is decency that difficult to figure out?

    That’s an incomplete quote. What I said was that the truth is somewhere between Chandler as hero and Chandler as evil.

  313. Lydia wrote:

    @ js:
    You have totally missed the very important cultural context. Jesus was not advocating that they be spiritually abused by their religious leaders. He was not teaching them to be door mats to spiritual abuse. Although many controlling leaders whip out the Beatitudes for just that.

    I don’t see where i’ve missed it. I think the Beatitudes apply to us all and aren’t giving anybody carte blanche to abuse but to bring healing. The persecution part I believe is there to explain what comes to those who stand for truth, the very thing that happened to Jesus Himself and which He promised for His followers.

  314. @ js:

    “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. “Peace, peace,” they say, when there is no peace.” Jer 8

    History repeats itself. Corrupted Religous leaders.

    You know, Jesus also said this:

    Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

    “‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
    36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

    37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

    There is really no point in using proof texting to shame people. Especially if you are not taking the context into consideration in Matthew 5. In any event, the exhalted elders,religous leaders of our time, get to define what is meek and peacemaking for us through their covenants. Just as their ancestors, the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, were doing.

  315. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism. I understand that.

    Well that’s a vast understatement. 🙂 Do you realize what blog you’re posting on?

  316. js wrote:

    I don’t see where i’ve missed it. I think the Beatitudes apply to us all and aren’t giving anybody carte blanche to abuse but to bring healing

    Healing to whom specifically? The abused children Jordon was viewing? Karen who was treated like a horrible sinner instead of the pedophile? Healing comes from facing uncomfortable truths and deciding whom we serve. Elders, a covenant written by mere men or Jesus Christ.

    If you like healing so much then always stand up for victims. And stop with the silliness concerning the white washed tombs you are concerned we are not making peace with.

  317. Lydia wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    I have been doing this a long time and recognize the js types. They start out as “concerned” for the victims and try to gain trust of other commenters. Then they start subtley on the sin leveling with commenters. If you push back, they become more and more relentless until it becomes obvious to more folks what the real game is. Seen it a thousand times.
    We are in sin for not speaking nicer of those who protect pedophiles and spiritually abuse others.
    These are the people at church that if you tell them the pastor raped your daughter they would expect you to find something nice to say about him, too. They think that is “Christian”. I call it the “totalitarian niceness”.

    I guess you can believe that if you’d like but it’s simply not true. I am not leveling sin. Let me be emphatic. What Jordan Root has done is monumentally worse that anything I have brought up. What TVC elders did in this situation is worse than what I brought up. So why bring it up? Because we do ourselves a disservice and we walk out of step with Jesus when we resort to speculation, name-calling, broad brushing, etc. I do not condone child abuse and do not believe my suggestions will perpetuate child abuse or cover up abuse. This is not sin-levelling. We can respond in a godly way while still responding. The two are not mutually exclusive. And by godly I do not mean no trace of anger or no strong words, I mean a response that is balanced with meekness, mercy, desire for reconciliation, etc. Neither a blind allegiance or a blind hate. It is possible.

    Once again, I think child abuse is deplorable and the handling of this situation by TVC was sinful and wrong-headed in every way.

  318. Lydia wrote:

    js wrote:
    I don’t see where i’ve missed it. I think the Beatitudes apply to us all and aren’t giving anybody carte blanche to abuse but to bring healing
    Healing to whom specifically? The abused children Jordon was viewing? Karen who was treated like a horrible sinner instead of the pedophile? Healing comes from facing uncomfortable truths and deciding whom we serve. Elders, a covenant written by mere men or Jesus Christ.
    If you like healing so much then always stand up for victims. And stop with the silliness concerning the white washed tombs you are concerned we are not making peace with.

    You are responsible as a believer to do both.

  319. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    to put safeguards in place re: Jordan.

    But they did not put safeguards in place.

    He was in one of their churches mixing and mingling with others before the church notified people he was a pedo.

    Church also encouraged home groups to socialize with him, didn’t tell them Jordan’s pedo tendencies, and some who attend that church say some of the folks in the home groups have small children.

  320. @ js:

    You get to define “godly” for us, I suppose. What an over used, misused word. I would have defined it as not protecting a pedophile while disciplining a victim of fraud.

    Anyway, good night. Sleep tight.

  321. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I’ve never heard anything taught at TVC to suggest that women are less than equal…only that they have different roles. I find no fault with anyone for disagreeing with that.

    You really are new to this blog.

    The Bait & Switch of Complementarians
    http://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/bait-switch-complementarians

    There is most certainly wrong with the “women are equal in value but not in roles” view point.

    In a nutshell, complementarianism is like the Jim Crow laws for black Americans, where black Americans were said to be “separate but equal.”

    Gender complementarianism: some are just more equal than others.

  322. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    You’re seriously happy attending a church where they gave a woman static and grief for not running her life choices by them first, choices which involved wanting to leave a pedo spouse?

    If I was attending such a church, that would be a red flag for me, and I would run out of the door.

  323. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Yeah, but see, his rant over getting anon e mails belies your “He’s so nice, and so totally like Jesus, I see Jesus in him” view that you stated in a post above, that was what I was replying to.

  324. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    I hate to hear that, but if it eases your mind any…one of the things that drew me to TVC was the fact that, in my first week or two attending, Chandler asked “How many of you drove more than 20 minutes to get here?” People raised hands, including myself. “Why are you passing good churches to come here? Why not plant yourself in a church in YOUR neighborhood so you can impact YOUR community? There are lots of good churches you passed getting here! Ask yourself if they preach Christ and Him crucified…do they disciple the body and raise up men and women with a passion for God…and jump in!” And he’s said similar things repeatedly. I have never heard him even talk A29 from the pulpit other than “I was in (insert city) with A29 and…” I’ve seen him tweet welcomes to new A29 pastors and that’s about it.

    Sorry, but I’ve seen that schtick before. It’s usually very effective.

  325. Lydia wrote:

    Evidently, viewing child porn is not that big of a deal to them. Their subsequent actions with protecting Jordon’s reputation from parents with children for 3 months, proved that.

    I think we said this above, but it bears repeating.

    One of the biggest tragedies out of this, or bad things, is that pedophiles out there, if they get wind of this story, will probably view churches as easy prey grounds more so than they did before.

    Seeing how TVC was so lax and other Christians are falling all over themselves to “love on” and bestow grace to this pedophile will probably embolden pedos to start hitting churches more often.

  326. Beth wrote:

    Just coming out of lurking to agree with this. I am a former Christian, now atheist. My reasons have little to do with the behavior of Christians.

    My slide into agnosticism has to do with this, with one or two other reasons. I’m not seeing many Christians living lives that show they really believe what the Bible says.

    Then I come to blogs like this and see TVC defenders basically saying showing grace to a pedo is more important than protecting children, or treating the wife of a pedo fairly.

  327. mirele wrote:

    Also not trivial is the inability to deal with adults who are not married. Complementarianism does NOTHING for me as a single, middle-aged, never married, childless adult female with a job, a mortgage and a cat.

    I’m in the same boat (not all my details are identical t yours).

    I’ve never married and never had kids (I am over the age of 40), and people such as me don’t exist in the world of gender complementarians, because gender comps are riveted on marriage and parenthood.

    All their sermons, books, blogs are about how to be a submissive wife or great mother. So, if you’re not a wife or mother, they have nothing to say to you.

    I bet Texas TruthTeller’s never thought of that before or noticed it.

  328. Daisy wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt

    Does anyone have a link to the Chandler audio of him yelling about anonymous posters being narcissistic zeroes?

    Daisy,
    It’s disappeared from all of the blogs that it used to be on.

  329. js wrote:

    Maybe our interactions can be a model of the spirit of disagreement with grace and truth that I have been pointing to in this post.

    I’m a little puzzled that you act as though most participants on this blog are super hostile meanies?

    Sometimes some of us on here, me included, can be snarky or angry at times, but more often than not, most people behave.

    Most people’s anger in the comments is usually on behalf of victims, people who have been hurt one way or another by greedy or arrogant preachers and church staff.

    This blog is not the underbelly of the internet. For that, you’d have to go visit Reddit and a few other sites. There are other blogs and sites which are way, way more angry and mean. This blog is tamer than most of them.

  330. Gram3 wrote:

    That no longer works, so they have fallen back to the marriage emphasis. When you think about it from a marketing POV, that actually makes a lot of sense.

    Over half the adult American population is single, as of 2014.

    Only an itty percent is the June Cleaver demo churches are aiming for, the young marrieds with kids.

    You would think these churches would try to compete for the adult singles, because we are a huge group, but they keep catering to June and Ward Cleaver.

    “Half Of Adult Americans Are Now Single”
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/11/the-us-is-becoming-more-european-half-of-adult-americans-are-now-single/

  331. An Attorney wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Tiny is not small enough. “Bless your miniscule little, hard as steel, unloving and uncaring, heart.” fits better with this jerk.

    LOL.

  332. Gram3 wrote:

    The content of these threads and our style is what you find most troubling in this situation? Seriously?
    What you call caustic and bitter, I call straightforward and honest and plain.

    JS might be doing something otherwise known on the internet as “Tone Policing.”

  333. @ js:

    I have at times seen some echo-chamber like behaviors on this blog, but it’s usually in regards to certain topics, not usually personalities.

    Having said that, I don’t see what you are trying to accomplish with this.

    Are you asking everyone here to talk super sweet and nice?

    Do you expend this much effort and energy at truly snarky and obnoxious blogs and sites, the ones who are defending Duggar and Root / TVC and asking them to talk more sweetly about these issues?

  334. js wrote:

    What I said was that the truth is somewhere between Chandler as hero and Chandler as evil.

    Out of the many comments I’ve read on this thread and the others, I’ve seen maybe only two people whose views towards Chandler were what I’d consider severely negative.

    The vast majority of people are just disagreeing with how Chandler runs TVC and have not come off as thinking he’s totally evil.

    Then there’s another category, people like me, who do not think Chandler is 100% evil but who think he’s arrogant, or a jerk, and is partially responsible for hosing over Karen, which is wrong and bad.

    I don’t sit around sticking pins in a Matt Chandler voo-doo doll. I just mildly dislike the guy, based on the controversy and his ranty video about anons being zeros.

  335. Daisy wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Daisy,
    It’s disappeared from all of the blogs that it used to be on.

    Someone had found an audio-only copy a few days ago. I found it again!

    Here is is, Matt Chandler calling people zeroes audio:
    http://alvinreid.com/?p=1073

    Yeah. I figured somebody would have stashed it somewhere. We all know these games. Save audio, screen shots, etc.

  336. Gram3 wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer wrote:
    I’m not trying to insult anyone.
    Please re-read your initial comments. I am not trying to insult you as much as wake you up to the way things are. Not the way you think they are, but the way they really are. I have been in your position in that respect. Several times.
    The Authoritarian Church has bodies littering the landscape who were once as convinced as you are that they are in the Right Church with the Right Leadership. Until they found out they were not in the Right Church. I’ve been trying to get you to zoom out historically and Biblically and examine whether or not Authoritarian Church has anything whatsoever to do with Christ and whether the Spiritual Authorities look like Jesus. I think that is a very difficult case to make. This can be a wake-up call or you can hit snooze and go back to sleep. Your choice, because I’m not authoritarian.

    He may not be ready for help, but I have benefitted from everything you said. TT’s loss.

  337. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Anon emails to them are just opportunities to trash talk without the ability for them to address the issue. He’s apologized for the bluntness of that comment (made to his own community) but I find that bluntness refreshing…and anon emails/texts to be spineless. But, if you don’t care for it, you needed attend. I get that it’s not for everyone. Have a good weekend.

    that says it all. those who call evil good and good evil. and then there are those that go online and try to convince everyone that evil is very good for you.

  338. And where is the numo? Is she having a break staying at my favourite underwater hotel in the Maldives or something – perhaps?

  339. Michaela wrote:

    I have benefitted from everything you said.

    I’m happy for that. Keep your eyes on the Jesus revealed in the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.

  340. Ladybird wrote:

    Thank you! So true! God bless tvc Dallas as they are protested on their holy day to worship. Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Jesus cares about what children need, as do “these bloggers” Dee and Deb, and as does SNAP. Matthew 15:26 “He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” Children need protection. Protecting them requires educating people about the serious danger an admitted child sex offender poses.

    The Sabbath is an appropriate time to explain children’s needs. A child attending TVC tomorrow may decide to one day break her or his silence because she or he saw that SNAP believes children without shaming them.

    SNAP has helped me in an hour of need. Now SNAP is helping and protecting others. God bless SNAP and Karen Hinkley for caring about the children’s needs!

  341. Ladybird wrote:

    Thank you! So true! God bless tvc Dallas as they are protested on their holy day to worship. Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Holy day to worship? No day is holy that I know of.

  342. Haitch wrote:

    And where is the numo? Is she having a break staying at my favourite underwater hotel in the Maldives or something – perhaps?

    I was wondering that as well. Hope all is well with you Numes.

  343. “Shameful of these bloggers. ”

    But it is not shameful of The Village Church and Matt Chandler to coddle a pedophile, and treat those ( Karen ) who hate sexual abuse of children like dirt?

    I was sexual abused as a child by a southern Baptist Christian man, and these bloggers are the few Christians that I have found that actually hate child sexual abuse.

  344. Bridget wrote:

    Haitch wrote:
    And where is the numo? Is she having a break staying at my favourite underwater hotel in the Maldives or something – perhaps?

    I was wondering that as well. Hope all is well with you Numes.

    Me, too. Hope you are well, Numo.

  345. @ Guest

    Thank you for trusting Dee and Deb of the Wartburg Watch enough that you spoke up about what a Southern Baptist child sexual abuser did to you.

    So many child sexual abuse victims are watching this travesty unfold and counting on good people to stand up for the children. It’s time to make it safe for victims to get relief by speaking about what happened to them and trusting listeners to respond with validation, acceptance, and care.

  346. Guest wrote:

    I was sexual abused as a child by a southern Baptist Christian man, and these bloggers are the few Christians that I have found that actually hate child sexual abuse.

    I know! It boggles my mind. Too many are are too quick to start excusing/defending the church when this issue comes up. If I hear one more time there is no perfect church or that “sinners sin” as if that is some sort of excuse for hienous evil against the most vulnerable and innocent of our society….I don’t know what I am going to do.

  347. @ Bridget:
    cmon – its their church service. The day of the week they come together as a community to worship. Say what you will but protesting at that time is bad news. Satan LOVES this. You wanna make a real difference? Reach out and meet with the TVC leadership. Ask to speak at DTS? Make inroads and build bridges. Work to build community and not build down walls.

  348. @ To the Dogs:
    SNAP is look for publicity – thats about it. Really wanna reach out. Seek out the Village- ask about presenting to parents or training their childcare workers etc … this? This is nothing but division within the body for clicks and notoriety.

  349. @ Guest:
    So yeah- he’s not coddling anyone. Please. Seriously. This language is baseless. Would you rather Jordan be out there- under no watchful eye? I mean he’s not arrested – for all we know he could change his name or head into Mexico. TVC is doing a MINISTRY by ministering to him. They are keeping eyes on him and that may be saving kiddos in so many ways. TVC nor can these bloggers force any agency to arrest him. So he is a free man and the ONLY ones actually focused on him NOT reoffending or fleeing ( which is what a lot would do in light of this) are TVC staff.

  350. Gram3 wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I have benefitted from everything you said.

    I’m happy for that. Keep your eyes on the Jesus revealed in the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.

    Thanks Gram3!

  351. Ladybird wrote:

    Satan LOVES this.

    Ladybird wrote:

    This is nothing but division within the body for clicks and notoriety.

    Now BillM, can I include this also? I’m going to call it…
    “I tawt I taw a puddy tat”.

  352. To the Dogs wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:

    Thank you! So true! God bless tvc Dallas as they are protested on their holy day to worship. Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ. @ Texas Truthsayer:

    Jesus cares about what children need, as do “these bloggers” Dee and Deb, and as does SNAP. Matthew 15:26 “He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” Children need protection. Protecting them requires educating people about the serious danger an admitted child sex offender poses.

    The Sabbath is an appropriate time to explain children’s needs. A child attending TVC tomorrow may decide to one day break her or his silence because she or he saw that SNAP believes children without shaming them.

    SNAP has helped me in an hour of need. Now SNAP is helping and protecting others. God bless SNAP and Karen Hinkley for caring about the children’s needs!

    T.T.D,

    Nicely said. SNAP helped Karen when her own pastors/elders turned against her.
    Standing ovation for SNAP.

  353. Haitch wrote:

    Now BillM, can I include this also? I’m going to call it…
    “I tawt I taw a puddy tat”.

    You did! You did!

  354. Ladybird wrote:

    TVC is doing a MINISTRY by ministering to him.

    Ladybird, I’m waiting for you to show support for Jordan’s victims and those who have suffered due to his actions, and to condemn Jordan’s actions.

  355. @ Ladybird:

    How can I build bridges with people who are not trustworthy? You are free to trust them if you please but I believe it is a fools errand.

    What Satan loves is the authoritarianism (people following leaders and thinking it is the same as following Christ). And he loves calling evil good and good, evil which is how they approached the Josh/Karen situation. Those are just a few of Satan’s favorite things.

    Unity for the sake of unity can enable all sorts of abuse and evils.

  356. Haitch wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:

    TVC is doing a MINISTRY by ministering to him.

    Ladybird, I’m waiting for you to show support for Jordan’s victims and those who have suffered due to his actions, and to condemn Jordan’s actions.

    And they were willing to *crucify* Karen before 6000 church members in an 8-page missive. No doubt Jordan is smug and emboldened knowing the lengths they will go to at The Village Church to *have his back*. Despicable.

  357. Thinking out loud, but if a church has been kept in the dark about things they should have known, and if the ELDERS who have kept them in the dark has caused rsk to children, and if the same ELDERS have been bludgeoning an innocent woman who is trying to protect those and other children, and if Jesus was concerned with children, then what better day and what better place to raise awareness of these things?

  358. Just want to also observe the delicious irony that the first invocation of the Puddy Tat rule was in response to posts by Ladybird. And I’m pretending that Ladybird isn’t a synonym for ladybug. Work with me.

  359. @ Ladybird:

    6000 people in your church would not know about Jordon if Karen had not made it public. She forced the issue by speaking up about his hienous crime he has been engaged in for a large part of his deceptive Christian life. So much for watchful eyes and the “ministering” “care” of your leaders. Your leaders wanted to keep it a secret from the members and were able to for 3 months.

    Their actions in this mess prove they were never concerned about ANY of the victims including the children he viewed.

  360. @ Ladybird:
    TVC is coddling a pedo. They let the pedo have access to the church for three months before notifying members that he was a pedo, and they only did that because they got pressure from SIM and Karen.

    And you come across like a troll, so I’m not sure I should respond to any further posts by you.

  361. Ladybird wrote:

    cmon – its their church service. The day of the week they come together as a community to worship. Say what you will but protesting at that time is bad news. Satan LOVES this.

    Satan loves to see children harmed and abused while church leaders leave their members in the dark about predators in their midst. And the leaders don’t have the right to decide that I don’t need to know about such predators. This is deception. Protecting children IS more important then one day of someone’s worship day. Worship is a life dedicated to God and his ways anyway. It’s not about one day of the week.

  362. Ladybird- I am a member of SNAP, and have been for several years. I will be standing outside TVC with them tomorrow morning. I am also a survivor of sexual abuse at the hands of a minister, his wife, and several church leaders. All I want to do is reach out to families and children and let them know the seriousness of what has happened, at a time when a large number of these families and children are likely to be there. They deserve to know there is a predator in their midst, and TVC has not taken steps to adequately protect children. I simply want to protect kids and let any who have suffered know that they are not alone. We would not be there if TVC leadership had handled this properly. If they had done their job, their duty, there would be no need for SNAP’s presence. We are standing out there to fill in the gaps, not to tear down a church, not to assault any one’s faith.

    Also, as someone else mentioned, tons of abuse survivors, particularly those abused by church leaders, are watching this situation unfold, and it is excruciating to hear so many Christians standing up for a church that has protected a pedophile, even calling those of us who seek justice, true restoration, true healing, all sorts of awful names, assuming bad intentions on our behalf. I won’t apologize for any inconvenience or discomfort you might feel, because I can tell you anybody who has been hurt by the church or those representing it has not chosen to be hurt. They’re pretty damn inconvenienced and uncomfortable by what has happened to them. It’s important to listen to victims and survivors. Just as I can learn from someone else who has had a different experience than me, I hope others can get out of their own way and take the opportunity before them to learn from the pain of others so that the same sort of damage does not happen in their own community. We are not against you. We are all one. We seek healing, justice, and protection for those who do not have a voice, for the kids no one is standing up for. That is all.

  363. @ Bridget:
    so others can speculate but not me? Thats what this whole blog is! LOL @ Haitch: Ok – here ya go. I condemn the actions of Jordan Root and what he did. And I hope and pray that either 1: he is truthful and all he’s done as been confessed or 2: that he confesses it all and turns himself in. I pray for the children that he watched. That they have been or will be rescued and that they find healing and therapy for their pain.

    Does that work? See. One can condemn what has happened and still not hold to yall’s train of thought on all these matters.

  364. Satan loves a lot of things- but if you can’t see how this is ALSO something that he will use – then you may be just as blind as those you are condemning on this blog. There are better ways to do what you say you want to do. @ Bridget:

  365. @ Ladybird:

    The articles on this blog are based on pages of documentation which you can read and conversations with Karen.

    SNAP’s motives are to protect children (on any day). It is probably stated on their blog. They are not interrupting anyone’s worship anyway. They are not going into the building. Folks are still free to enter and do what they do.

    Any response to this Bridget wrote:

    Satan loves to see children harmed and abused while church leaders leave their members in the dark about predators in their midst. And the leaders don’t have the right to decide that I don’t need to know about such predators. This is deception. Protecting children IS more important then one day of someone’s worship day. Worship is a life dedicated to God and his ways anyway. It’s not about one day of the week.

    Since you were concerned about what satan might be doing.

  366. @ Daisy:
    Im not a troll. Im a mom and a wife and most of all a believer in Christ. Just because I don’t agree with your remarks doesn’t make me a troll. Truth be told you have no idea what convos happened and with whom when? Has ANYONE heard from a parent that they unknowingly invited JR into their home due to this? Do you know the date when his home group leaders were made aware? Do you think that , while being under watch of TVC and living in a home of a LAWYER that they’d be like – sure- head on over to so and so’s house without informing them privately? Truth is – no one knows. Some general emails sent out but we have no idea what specific convos between people happened and when they did.

  367. Bridget wrote:

    @ Ladybird:
    The articles on this blog are based on pages of documentation which you can read and conversations with Karen.
    SNAP’s motives are to protect children (on any day). It is probably stated on their blog. They are not interrupting anyone’s worship anyway. They are not going into the building. Folks are still free to enter and do what they do.
    Any response to this Bridget wrote:
    Satan loves to see children harmed and abused while church leaders leave their members in the dark about predators in their midst. And the leaders don’t have the right to decide that I don’t need to know about such predators. This is deception. Protecting children IS more important then one day of someone’s worship day. Worship is a life dedicated to God and his ways anyway. It’s not about one day of the week.
    Since you were concerned about what satan might be doing.

    Yes- you assumer you know TVCs motives and actual actions. Do you know the date that his home-group leaders were informed? Do you think that while living with a lawyer that they’d be like – sure JR- head over to so and so’s home to babysit have dinner and we wont tell anyone anything!This seems like a SMASHING idea. No- of course not -thats ludicrous.

    Satan loves ALL of this. He loves liars and abusers. He loves dissension and confusion. He loves the body of Christ attacking. He loves things not being done in LOVE.

    There is NO way you can spin it to me that picketing a church service is being done in LOVE what so ever. You can effect more change by seeking out TVC and DTS and xyz- providing real education and counseling and learning to walk with people that may not be on board with you theologically 100% but love the Lord and want to do good. If you think TVC doesn’t care about kids and elevates JR over its call to love and care for children- well, then we will find no middle ground.

  368. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ladybird:
    6000 people in your church would not know about Jordon if Karen had not made it public. She forced the issue by speaking up about his hienous crime he has been engaged in for a large part of his deceptive Christian life. So much for watchful eyes and the “ministering” “care” of your leaders. Your leaders wanted to keep it a secret from the members and were able to for 3 months.
    Their actions in this mess prove they were never concerned about ANY of the victims including the children he viewed.

    1st off-I live in cali and I don’t got to TVC.

    2: you actually have no idea when or if something would have been shared. Thats the truth. You can speculate -fave pastime – but have no real idea. And a lot of people knew about his situation in those 1st 3 months. What they chose to share in general emails is not indicative of what what conversations they had with people starting from day 1 of his arrival in the US.

  369. Ladybird wrote:

    Does that work? See. One can condemn what has happened and still not hold to yall’s train of thought on all these matters

    Did I miss the part where you spoke out against the harassment and bullying of Karen? Maybe it’s in a comment below and I just haven’t got there yet.

  370. @ proudjezebel:
    Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.

  371. Gram3 wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    Does that work? See. One can condemn what has happened and still not hold to yall’s train of thought on all these matters
    Did I miss the part where you spoke out against the harassment and bullying of Karen? Maybe it’s in a comment below and I just haven’t got there yet.

    You are a sarcastic one! we part ways here – I don’t feel they bullied or harassed her.

  372. @ Ladybird:

    So why would it be a big secret for only a few since it involves pedophilia? Isn’t transparancy the best way for Christians to go? I come from the mega world backstage and I can tell you that when people imply we don’t know the whole story, I totally get what that means.

    And I agree with Gram, you have not mentioned their treatment of Karen even once. That does not concern you? What about the children Jordon violated by viewing?

    Here is something to consider: If the protestors/organization go into the church to teach then they are subject to the authoritarian guys who run the place and decide for others what scripture and words mean. That would be a huge mistake because we now know there really is no freedom of conscience belief at TVC. Many here are for getting away from the secretive authoritiarian leader model who protect pedophiles and discipline the victims. Many of us do not think it is of Christ.

  373. proudjezebel wrote:

    Sorry, but prayer is not sufficient for the protection of children. Action needs to occur, as well.

    actions :

    going door to door at his apartments where he may have done things
    talking with the counseling center ( Dallas Life) where he may have done things
    asking to partner with TVC re: educating staff and volunteers
    asking to partner with TVC re: open meeting with parents to recognize possible signs of abuse
    asking to come together and lead a prayer night to aid the church in healing and restoration

    these are just a few off the actions that one could do to really help kids and effect change – long lasting change. Protesting at a church worship service? Nope. But even so, I know that TVCer’s will treat y’all with grace even tho it is apparent that your org ( even if not you per se) desire nothing more than to tear them down. I hope you share those stories of grace showed to y’all on the blog tomorrow.

  374. Ladybird wrote:

    Do you think that , while being under watch of TVC and living in a home of a LAWYER that they’d be like – sure- head on over to so and so’s house without informing them privately?

    The lawyer has a job and a commute, I assume. He can’t be guarding Jordan Root 24/7 or even a large part of the day.

    In case you don’t know the facts, there is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that rivals that of the Catholic Church.
    Sources: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the United States
    and Richard Hammar (Harvard-educated attorney) of Church Law & Tax. Mr. Hammar, who studies more than 12,000 lawsuits against churches a year for his annual report of why churches get sued, has noted that Child Sexual Abuse is the No. 1
    reason that churches are getting sued every single year, for many years.

    http://www.churchlawandtax.com/blog/2015/may/top-5-reasons-churches-went-to-court-in-2014.html

    The issue is so serious for Church Mutual that they are dropping coverage for churches that won’t minister to sex offenders separately.

  375. Lydia wrote:

    @ Ladybird:
    So why would it be a big secret for only a few since it involves pedophilia? Isn’t transparancy the best way for Christians to go? I come from the mega world backstage and I can tell you that when people imply we don’t know the whole story, I totally get what that means.
    And I agree with Gram, you have not mentioned their treatment of Karen even once. That does not concern you? What about the children Jordon violated by viewing?
    Here is something to consider: If the protestors/organization go into the church to teach then they are subject to the authoritarian guys who run the place and decide for others what scripture and words mean. That would be a huge mistake because we now know there really is no freedom of conscience belief at TVC. Many here are for getting away from the secretive authoritiarian leader model who protect pedophiles and discipline the victims. Many of us do not think it is of Christ.

    girl, I can agree with you that TVC didnt act perfectly and that yes- looking back- having a meeting with at least parents in kids ministry asap ( even tho he didnt serve there- thats where the kids and parents are and high likelyhood to get info out) would have been good. But just because that didnt happen doesn’t at all mean that ipso facto they hate kids and love pedos! Nor does it mean that they didnt try to navigate things in a meaningful way.

    2: i spoke directly about the kids he viewed. Read up – its there. But in short- the are victims and I pray they are found and freed from their awful slavery.

    3: addressed my thoughts on Karen- we part ways there. I don’t they abused her or bullied her.

    4: until you meet with them and hear from them- you again are speculating on what you thing it will be like. You don’t know them. At all. You think you do because of this but even so, you really don’t. Plus- God calls us to try and reach out – build bridges. I think its a much better way than protesting at a church on Sunday.

  376. @ Michaela:
    you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

  377. Those are great action steps, that TVC should take the initiative on. They haven’t listened so far. It’s called a protest, but I’ve been to these things before, and we’re honestly just trying to inform those who need to know, who haven’t been informed, and Sun. AM is the perfect opportunity. But it’s clear you’ve already made up your mind on what this is going to be, and nothing any of us say is going to convince you otherwise. I’ve stated the intent, clearly, but you didn’t listen to that, either. I hope Villagers will treat us with grace. There are some (including those who defend them) that haven’t. But I hope for the best. I hope they are able to let their defense down long enough to listen. I hope you are able to do the same.

  378. Ladybird wrote:

    @ proudjezebel:
    Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.

    The Village Church pastors/elders don’t want anybody else’s advice, as we have all seen by this train wreck that they created.

    Amy Smith’s blog and SNAP’s blogs and The Wartburg Watch are here, and others.
    The Village Church has done…no reaching out.

  379. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    @ proudjezebel:
    Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.
    The Village Church pastors/elders don’t want anybody else’s advice, as we have all seen by this train wreck that they created.
    Amy Smith’s blog and SNAP’s blogs and The Wartburg Watch are here, and others.
    The Village Church has done…no reaching out.

    ohmygosh- can you blame them? I mean – Id hardly reach out to y’all if I was them! LOL! This is where advocates of children and those that love Christ may think about reaching out to them. Taking the rhetoric down a notch and saying- we want to help and walk along side you to make church a safer place for kids.

    I mean, I know this wont happen whatsoever but a girl can dream I suppose.

  380. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

    The Village Church pastors/elders can do precisely ZERO to stop Jordan Root.
    If they tried, he could call the police on them.

    As it stands, The Village Church pastors/elders have EMBOLDENED Jordan Root by
    attacking Karen before 6,000 people. Jordan must have had a good laugh about that and he knows he’s home free! He, like the rest of us, must have thought: IDIOTS!

  381. proudjezebel wrote:

    Those are great action steps, that TVC should take the initiative on. They haven’t listened so far. It’s called a protest, but I’ve been to these things before, and we’re honestly just trying to inform those who need to know, who haven’t been informed, and Sun. AM is the perfect opportunity. But it’s clear you’ve already made up your mind on what this is going to be, and nothing any of us say is going to convince you otherwise. I’ve stated the intent, clearly, but you didn’t listen to that, either. I hope Villagers will treat us with grace. There are some (including those who defend them) that haven’t. But I hope for the best. I hope they are able to let their defense down long enough to listen. I hope you are able to do the same.

    well I hope you share how it goes down on here. Of course I am saddened by it all and yes- i don’t think its good and wish y’all would use your passion to reach into this situation in a different way. I hope you can see how one can state intent but then have people question it based on their actions – i.e. : picketing with signs at a church on Sunday. Are y’all going with signs? Bullhorns? Hoping to have media there? See- all that stuff really rubs against honest to goodness intent- imo

    and girl- I get your heart. People have good hearts but don’t follow that up with the best and most helpful actions sometimes. I can feel that way about what your taking part in- that doesn’t make me blind or closed minded. And it doesn’t make you inherently bad in my book. I mean, Id not agree with you at all on this but I don’t dislike you (as much as I could dislike someone I only know via a few online postings).

  382. Ladybird wrote:

    2: i spoke directly about the kids he viewed. Read up – its there. But in short- the are victims and I pray they are found and freed from their awful slavery.

    You don’t seem to have a good grasp of our laws. US residents are forbidden from watching or engaging in child exploitation anywhere in the world. Even if a US resident commits a crime overseas they can be brought back to the US and face prosecution in federal court on federal felony charges. These carry stiff prison sentences.

    This is from the U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) website:

    “Predators Face Severe Penalties

    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act.

    Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18.

    ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    •Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    •Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    •Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution”

  383. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    @ Michaela:
    you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.
    The Village Church pastors/elders can do precisely ZERO to stop Jordan Root.
    If they tried, he could call the police on them.
    As it stands, The Village Church pastors/elders have EMBOLDENED Jordan Root by
    attacking Karen before 6,000 people. Jordan must have had a good laugh about that and he knows he’s home free! He, like the rest of us, must have thought: IDIOTS!

    Its either they do something ( or at least attempt to) or he’s what? Solo? Thats better? Stressed out , solo, no support whatsoever- what could possibly go wrong? He could flee? Mexico is 5 hrs south. That be a LOT better for all involved. They are doing what they can – and for all we know he’s in inpatient treatment somewhere- you can once again speculate that he’s not but you don’t know and neither do I! And we wont know because of HIPPA! thats what really gets me here- no one knows much and yet everyone acts like they have the inside track.

  384. Ladybird wrote:

    You are a sarcastic one! we part ways here – I don’t feel they bullied or harassed her.

    Well, that clarifies your POV very well. You have violated the Puddy Tat rule and the Prime Directive in one thread!

  385. Ladybird wrote:

    girl, I can agree with you that TVC didnt act perfectly and that yes- looking back- having a meeting with at least parents in kids ministry asap ( even tho he didnt serve there- thats where the kids and parents are and high likelyhood to get info out) would have been good. But just because that didnt happen doesn’t at all mean that ipso facto they hate kids and love pedos! Nor does it mean that they didnt try to navigate things in a meaningful way.

    I don’t think they “hate” kids and “love” pedophiles. I think they “love” their authority and are concerned about their “image”.

    Ladybird wrote:

    : until you meet with them and hear from them- you again are speculating on what you thing it will be like. You don’t know them. At all. You think you do because of this but even so, you really don’t. Plus- God calls us to try and reach out – build bridges. I think its a much better way than protesting at a church on Sunday.

    I really don’t need to meet with them personally as this has been public thanks to Karen. I did not have to meet Bill Clinton personally to have an opinion on his behavior, either. I have many documents to read written by the leaders of TVC. I know what Matt Chandler teaches. I know all about his dealings with Driscoll, Mahaney and Acts 29. IOW, I know where he comes from and his doctrinal beliefs in church structure.

    If there is some secret back channel that negates all the public documentation on this then let us know. Perhaps there is some document that says “Just Kidding” signed by the leaders?

    If you don’t think Karen was bullied by these authoritarian leaders AFTER she resigned then we really have nothing more to discuss as we are on totally different planets as to what constitutes proper behavior in the Body of Christ.

  386. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    2: i spoke directly about the kids he viewed. Read up – its there. But in short- the are victims and I pray they are found and freed from their awful slavery.
    You don’t seem to have a good grasp of our laws. US residents are forbidden from watching or engaging in child exploitation anywhere in the world. Even if a US resident commits a crime overseas they can be brought back to the US and face prosecution in federal court on federal felony charges. These carry stiff prison sentences.

    ok… You’re right , Im not getting it. I said what he did was awful. Child porn is a crime and I wish he would have been arrested and brought to trial. Then justice would have been served. And maybe more kids rescued if he was wiling to expose things he accessed or actions he committed.

    but that hasn’t happened. He hasn’t been arrested or charged or convicted. So he’s a free man right now no? So until ( if) he is ever brought to justice – its TVC thats trying to get him help and supervise him.
    This is from the U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) website:
    “Predators Face Severe Penalties
    Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act.
    Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18.
    ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
    •Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
    •Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
    •Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution”

  387. Ladybird wrote:

    it is apparent that your org ( even if not you per se) desire nothing more than to tear them down.

    That is pure speculation, but predictable pure speculation.

  388. @ Michaela:
    I repled but its being moderated.

    Suffice to say I wish he would have been brought to justice. Tried and convicted. He committed awful crimes against innocent children. But he hasn’t and maybe wont ever be. Until ( if ) that happens – TVC is who is doing what they can to see that he gets help and doesn’t re-offend. It may be all for not- but until he is arrested and convicted – Id rather have him under a watchful eye than zero. I don’t see how that would be better.

  389. Ladybird wrote:

    girl, I can agree with you that TVC didnt act perfectly and that yes- looking back-

    Yet another very predicable tactic which I put in my pre-write of The Village PR release on the other thread. Saw you coming before you hit my horizon.

  390. Gram3 wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    it is apparent that your org ( even if not you per se) desire nothing more than to tear them down.
    That is pure speculation, but predictable pure speculation.

    well, people in the org have said that they see nothing less of resignation and abandonment of their theological convictions ( covenants etc ) will satisfy them. Just going off what people that are on this blog have said – over and over mind you. Maybe they want to see TVC maintain its status? Maybe they think its a solid church with a large Gospel reach and mission?

  391. Gram3 wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    No one does.
    Including you? Are you speculating about that, too?

    Im just playing by the rules y’all have set. To throw things out there and see if it sticks! LOL!

  392. Ladybird wrote:

    Truth is – no one knows.

    Yep. Exactly.

    There’s no telling how many children J. Root may have had access to after he came back from his missions trip, because TVC was so lax about the entire ordeal. TVC didn’t tell the church members for 3 months about the nature of his sin.

    I don’t automatically assume everyone who disagrees with me is a troll. Your behavior / attitude was troll-like to me.

  393. Gram3 wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    girl, I can agree with you that TVC didnt act perfectly and that yes- looking back-
    Yet another very predicable tactic which I put in my pre-write of The Village PR release on the other thread. Saw you coming before you hit my horizon.

    Im just trying to dialogue with you! I might be out of my league and my voice and ideas of no value.

  394. Ladybird wrote:

    ohmygosh- can you blame them? I mean – Id hardly reach out to y’all if I was them

    No, I totally understand why they would not come here or the other EvilWatchWitchBlogs. They have an extraordinarily bad fact set, and we have a lot of people who know how to think, unlike a lot of pewpeons who are trained to obey and not to question. I’d stay as far away as possible, too, and hide behind the skirts of the Gospel Glitterati hoping that this all blows over like at Mars Hill. Oh, wait…

  395. Daisy wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    Truth is – no one knows.
    Yep. Exactly.
    There’s no telling how many children J. Root may have had access to after he came back from his missions trip, because TVC was so lax about the entire ordeal. TVC didn’t tell the church members for 3 months about the nature of his sin.
    I don’t automatically assume everyone who disagrees with me is a troll. Your behavior / attitude was troll-like to me.

    or just assume they are lax because you don’t know their inner workings or what took place when outside of certain shared emails and FAQs.

    Ive never been called a troll before- first time for everything I suppose!

  396. Ladybird wrote:

    Im not a troll. Im a mom and a wife and most of all a believer in Christ.

    If you attend any TVC related churches, I hope you keep a close eye on your children. Their “escort” (person who is to accompany Root around the church property) is not a guarantee that J. Root won’t have an opportunity to do something.

    Like someone else said, prayer is wonderful but may not necessarily protect children from a pedophile.

  397. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Lord have mercy I have no idea what your sentence even says! LOL

    The Prime Directive is that acknowledgement must be made of the victim’s position. You have said that Karen was not abused. Therefore, I threw the flag on you. The Puddy Tat rule is rather new and much less formal. It is similar to Godwin’s.

  398. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.
    The Village Church pastors/elders can do precisely ZERO to stop Jordan Root.
    If they tried, he could call the police on them.
    As it stands, The Village Church pastors/elders have EMBOLDENED Jordan Root by
    attacking Karen before 6,000 people. Jordan must have had a good laugh about that and he knows he’s home free! He, like the rest of us, must have thought: IDIOTS!

    Its either they do something.

    The Village Church pastors/elders have done NOTHING correctly in the handling of Jordan Root. They have ENABLED him every step of the way.

    They didn’t MAKE HIM:
    *confess to law enforcement all of his crimes involving children
    *disclose all of the electronic devices he used
    *make him plead guilty in federal or state court (no plea bargains and no blame-games and no pity parties)
    *make him serve the time for his crimes (in which there are special treatments for imprisoned sex offenders)

  399. Lydia wrote:

    Perhaps there is some document that says “Just Kidding” signed by the leaders?

    IMO, that is a fair summary of the PR release non-apology.

  400. Ladybird wrote:

    just trying to dialogue with you! I might be out of my league and my voice and ideas of no value.

    That is why all these blog posts about this situation exist. For victims to have a voice and for us to interact about it. We would know nothing about this situation (and neither would the pew peons at TVC) if Karen had not gone public with her story. That is simply how it works in these authoritarian YRR churches whether folks want to believe it or not. The elders and leaders “who know best for you” would handle it. You might think that is a good thing and enjoy being told what to think, do and believe or be under “church discipline”. I don’t.

  401. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Im not sure why you keep quoting that to me but thanks- its good to know legal stuff.

    You are welcome for that legal information about these federal and state felony sex crimes. I could really tell that you are missing the point and don’t seem to be too well educated about the topic.

  402. Ladybird wrote:

    Do you think that while living with a lawyer that they’d be like – sure JR- head over to so and so’s home to babysit have dinner and we wont tell anyone anything!This seems like a SMASHING idea. No- of course not -thats ludicrous.

    Yes, I do think they would do something so naive because most Christians are terribly naive concerning child abuse.

    And in part I say that because they expected a woman to stay married to J. Root to “walk aside him through this.”

    They clearly place more importance on their covenant, authority, J Root, and their reputation than on Karen or on children.

    TVC also acted as obstacles in informing members of J Root’s problem, in getting him proper counseling.

    Here is an excerpt:

    TVC dismissed recommendations from SIM that Jordan needed, at minimum, intensive therapy from someone who has experience working with these issues.

    I was told at one point that in-patient treatment had been recommended and that Jordan should attend a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting every day until he began that treatment.

    Instead, TVC had Jordan see Eric Bryant, a member of The Village Church who is a part of North Texas Christian Counseling.
    On his bio, Eric does not list experience treating pedophilia or sexual addiction.

    Jordan went to counseling once a week for the first couple of months after his return, at which point Eric felt he was doing well enough to begin going only once every other week instead. I am unsure as to whether or how often Jordan is currently going to counseling.

    Source for that:
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

    Sounds like TVC is lackadaisical about getting this guy honest- to- goodness treatment from a reputable counselor. It looks like they are not taking it seriously.

  403. Ladybird wrote:

    1st off-I live in cali and I don’t got to TVC.

    Really? Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

  404. Ladybird wrote:

    a solid church with a large Gospel reach and mission?

    Please define which gospel, solid, and mission. On large we can agree. Hint: gospel plus is not the Gospel.

  405. well ladies- I don’t agree with y’all and I don’t think how you’ve handled things are 100% on point but its a free world. I do hope that -as you ask TVC to reflect – that you will do the same.
    I have to get back to my weekend and my kids 🙂

  406. Ladybird wrote:

    I don’t feel they bullied or harassed her.

    The church kept contacting her even after she told them not to, and she was no longer a member. Most people would take that as bullying and harassment.

  407. Ladybird wrote:

    Im just playing by the rules y’all have set. To throw things out there and see if it sticks! LOL!

    More speculation and a bonus ad hominem.

  408. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Im not sure why you keep quoting that to me but thanks- its good to know legal stuff.

    You are welcome for that legal information about these federal and state felony sex crimes. I could really tell that you are missing the point and don’t seem to be too well educated about the topic.

    By the way, I was totally blessed to see the sweet video on the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement website about their bringing some little children from an overseas country to the US to testify in federal court about being sexually exploited overseas. Brave little children. And the federal law enforcement officials were so good to them. One of the little girls drew a picture for the woman agent as a gift that showed the child’s healing.

  409. Daisy wrote:

    Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

    Acts29 is everywhere.

  410. Ladybird wrote:

    Protesting at a church worship service?

    Maybe I have misunderstood, but I don’t think they are “protesting” the church but are going to show up to inform people there that there is a pedophile among them. Some of those attending may not be aware.

    We had a TVC member (or ex member) post the other day that TVC get lots of new comers every week who may not have heard about J Root.

  411. Ladybird wrote:

    you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

    Yep. Again, that’s what is scary.

    And, per your other post, nobody here has said that TVC hates kids or love pedos… but their priorities have been to protect J Root and their reputation.

    OTOH, it may be accurate to say they love pedos, because they sent out an e mail to church members telling them to “love on” J. Root once he got back from his missions trip.

    A lot of TVC defenders are also going on about how even pedos deserve love and grace. So yes, I’d say there’s a huge blind spot there in how dangerous pedos are or can be.

  412. Ladybird wrote:

    You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

    But P.S. Karen said in her statements that once J Root returned that different TVC church members loaned him their cars. Where was J Root driving and visiting that he would need a car?

    To my knowledge, Jordan was picked up from the airport by Richard Brindley and a deacon at the Dallas Campus upon his arrival.

    He stayed at Richard Brindley’s home for a few days before moving into the home of Randall Reed, a member of The Village Church who Jordan had no prior relationship with.

    This is the same Randall Reed who provided Jordan with legal counsel and representation in the annulment case free of charge, despite the fact that he does not typically practice family law.

    Richard Brindley gave Jordan the use of one of his vehicles from the time Jordan returned to the U.S. until shortly after The Village Church was tipped off about the possible story in The Dallas Morning News. The Village Church as an organization paid for at least six of Jordan’s counseling sessions.

    Source:
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

  413. Ladybird wrote:

    or just assume they are lax because you don’t know their inner workings or what took place when outside of certain shared emails and FAQs.

    I read the documentation about it. You can read some of it too, here (in the first three or so posts on the page):
    http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/

  414. Gram3 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

    Acts29 is everywhere.

    And that brings up another thing. Chandler has the entire Acts 29 network behind him including all that entails like the NAMB and Platt at the IMB. Plus other Reformed groups I might have missed that partnered with Acts 29.

  415. Boy, oh, boy. The Acts29 defenders have been coming out of the woodwork lately…

    Patrice wrote:

    Oh you’re here, too, ladybird. Rather busy today, yes?

    She’s been acting out on other blogs, too? Where else have you seen her, Patrice? At Watchkeep?

  416. Ladybird wrote:

    3: addressed my thoughts on Karen- we part ways there. I don’t they abused her or bullied her.

    Here is Pastor Wade Burleson’s article about what The Village Church did to Karen.
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/it-takes-village-covenant-to-raise.html

    “It Takes a Village Covenant to Raise a Bitter Root”

    “I’d like to offer you some unsolicited advice, that if taken, might protect you from litigation that every attorney with a shingle on his window would love to take against you. It seems to me that Karen doesn’t want to harm Village Church or anyone else. She just wants people to take child sexual abuse seriously. Here’s my advice.

    (1). Write an immediate letter of apology–and I mean immediate– to Karen Hinckley, retracting the earlier letter, and informing Karen that you are indeed accepting Karen’s resignation from your church.

    (2). Never speak on behalf of Karen Hinckley again–to anyone–including the members of your congregation.

    (3). Realize that your 501c-3 called Village Church is not equivalent to the Kingdom of God. Yes, you play a huge and vital role in His Kingdom, but your non-profit and His Kingdom are not synonymous. Therefore, next time anyone decides they wish to leave your non-profit, let them go.
    As a side note, I do wish to encourage you in your continued ministry to Jordan Root. Unlike some, I believe you have an interest in the victims of his abuse. My friends have a hard time believing that you are as concerned for the victims because you’ve taken one of his victims — his wife — to the proverbial gates of hell because she dared disagree with the manner in which you were progressing in your ministry toward her and her former husband.”

    And his other article about the dangers of church covenants:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html

  417. Gram3 wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

    Acts29 is everywhere.

    I think this proves that Matt Chandler & Company aren’t really *sorry*.

  418. Daisy wrote:

    Maybe I have misunderstood, but I don’t think they are “protesting” the church but are going to show up to inform people there that there is a pedophile among them. Some of those attending may not be aware.
    We had a TVC member (or ex member) post the other day that TVC get lots of new comers every week who may not have heard about J Root.

    Exactly. I’ve been to this type of thing before. We’re not ‘picketing’. We are not Westboro. We don’t come with hate disguised as love. Yes, there will be signs. So people who drive or walk by can see from a distance what we are trying to inform them about. We’re not trying to be incendiary. A lot of people get up in arms about us ‘treading on sacred ground’, but to that I say, what of the sacred ground that is a child’s body? A person’s heart? That needs to be protected. As someone with an advanced degree in child advocacy and policy, and over 11 years of experience in the field, I can tell you, TVC did not follow industry-recognized standards for dealing with this sort of situation. Basics in child protection. 101. And as a survivor, where the dynamics in the TVC environment are very similar to those I experienced growing up, I can see all the holes in their strategy, which is not so much a child-protection strategy, as a cover-their-a$$es strategy. The leadership clearly hasn’t listened so far, and they haven’t communicated to those who attend their church- members or new-comers, what they need to know, nor have they taken adequate steps to protect them. So we will take the message to their flock. Our message doesn’t take the form of arrows, unlike much of the rhetoric being shot out by their leaders and those who defend their actions/inaction.

  419. Here’s one thing I haven’t heard anyone mention exactly.

    If I were at that church, it would not be enough for me as a parent that Root kept his filthy hands off my kids.

    I would want him to keep his filthy eyeballs and his filthy mind off of them, too!

    That man should not be around kids. Period. Not in the pews, not in the hallways, not in the restrooms, not anywhere. He won’t be looking at children and seeing them in the same way you or I would. He sexualizes children and fantasizes about them. He defiles them simply by his proximity.

    Is the Village Church committed long-term to provide spiritual care for Root? Fine, then. How committed? Enough to insist he turn himself in and provide evidence he’s hidden or erased? Enough to follow SIM’s strict recommendations? Enough to provide pastoral services outside of normal Sunday meetings? Enough to invest time and money to conduct separate adults-only meetings for him and similar pedophiles? If not, they better send him packing to some ministry that will.

    Jordan Root should not be allowed to stimulate his perverted fantasies by sitting in church services with sweet, innocent, trusting little kids all dressed up in their Sunday best.

  420. Guest wrote:

    “Shameful of these bloggers. ”

    But it is not shameful of The Village Church and Matt Chandler to coddle a pedophile, and treat those ( Karen ) who hate sexual abuse of children like dirt?

    I was sexual abused as a child by a southern Baptist Christian man, and these bloggers are the few Christians that I have found that actually hate child sexual abuse.

    Hi Guest,

    Welcome here. I am so sorry for the pain of sexual abuse that you have gone through. Dee and Deb are to thank for this being a safe place for victims.
    It’s one of their rules; non-supporters aren’t get blocked.

  421. Never Again wrote:

    Jordan Root should not be allowed to stimulate his perverted fantasies by sitting in church services with sweet, innocent, trusting little kids all dressed up in their Sunday best.

    Nor sweet, poor, and downtrodden children on the mission field.

  422. Daisy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Acts29 is everywhere.
    Oh. So Ladybird’s church is likely an Acts29 plant?

    kids in bed- fixing to have some wine with the hubs but good night y’all- y’all LOVE to extrapolate don’t ya-

    NO, I don’t attend an acts 29 church. Can people just disagree with y’all on principle outside the echo chamber y’all have here? I found this blog site via twitter and the postings. Isn’t that what y’all want? So I came and read and some things – like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

    I agree with yalls heart and desire to help kids but I don’t agree with this.

  423. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Boy, oh, boy. The Acts29 defenders have been coming out of the woodwork lately…
    Patrice wrote:
    Oh you’re here, too, ladybird. Rather busy today, yes?
    She’s been acting out on other blogs, too? Where else have you seen her, Patrice? At Watchkeep?

    this is crazy go nuts.

    No I haven’t been “acting out” on other blogs. Good night- you speak as ill of me as you might say TVcers or Acts 29ers speak of people.

    Like I said and maintain- reflection is most def need on both sides of this.

  424. Michaela wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    Ladybird wrote:
    @ Michaela:
    Im not sure why you keep quoting that to me but thanks- its good to know legal stuff.
    You are welcome for that legal information about these federal and state felony sex crimes. I could really tell that you are missing the point and don’t seem to be too well educated about the topic.
    By the way, I was totally blessed to see the sweet video on the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement website about their bringing some little children from an overseas country to the US to testify in federal court about being sexually exploited overseas. Brave little children. And the federal law enforcement officials were so good to them. One of the little girls drew a picture for the woman agent as a gift that showed the child’s healing.

    while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic. How is me stating over and over that he deserves to be imprisoned missing the point? He does but he isn’t because of certain technicalities Im sure. I hope that one day he is brought to justice or he confesses on his own accord to LEO’s etc – because even if he is a repentant believer – our actions have consequences and sometimes that means jail and/or a record / plus added to sex offender registry. I wish those things had happened – but they didnt.

  425. proudjezebel wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    Maybe I have misunderstood, but I don’t think they are “protesting” the church but are going to show up to inform people there that there is a pedophile among them. Some of those attending may not be aware.
    We had a TVC member (or ex member) post the other day that TVC get lots of new comers every week who may not have heard about J Root.
    Exactly. I’ve been to this type of thing before. We’re not ‘picketing’. We are not Westboro. We don’t come with hate disguised as love. Yes, there will be signs. So people who drive or walk by can see from a distance what we are trying to inform them about. We’re not trying to be incendiary. A lot of people get up in arms about us ‘treading on sacred ground’, but to that I say, what of the sacred ground that is a child’s body? A person’s heart? That needs to be protected. As someone with an advanced degree in child advocacy and policy, and over 11 years of experience in the field, I can tell you, TVC did not follow industry-recognized standards for dealing with this sort of situation. Basics in child protection. 101. And as a survivor, where the dynamics in the TVC environment are very similar to those I experienced growing up, I can see all the holes in their strategy, which is not so much a child-protection strategy, as a cover-their-a$$es strategy. The leadership clearly hasn’t listened so far, and they haven’t communicated to those who attend their church- members or new-comers, what they need to know, nor have they taken adequate steps to protect them. So we will take the message to their flock. Our message doesn’t take the form of arrows, unlike much of the rhetoric being shot out by their leaders and those who defend their actions/inaction.

    what will you signs say?

  426. Ladybird wrote:

    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Boy, oh, boy. The Acts29 defenders have been coming out of the woodwork lately…
    Patrice wrote:
    Oh you’re here, too, ladybird. Rather busy today, yes?
    She’s been acting out on other blogs, too? Where else have you seen her, Patrice? At Watchkeep?

    Like I said and maintain- reflection is most def need on both sides of this.

    I don’t recall seeing you doing any *reflecting* in your posts. Even Pastor Wade Burleson, a conservative Baptist preacher in Oklahoma, wrote about what The Village Church did wrong to Karen and what they needed to do to make it right, here is part of it:

    “I’d like to offer you some unsolicited advice, that if taken, might protect you from litigation that every attorney with a shingle on his window would love to take against you. It seems to me that Karen doesn’t want to harm Village Church or anyone else. She just wants people to take child sexual abuse seriously. Here’s my advice.

    (1). Write an immediate letter of apology–and I mean immediate– to Karen Hinckley, retracting the earlier letter, and informing Karen that you are indeed accepting Karen’s resignation from your church.

    (2). Never speak on behalf of Karen Hinckley again–to anyone–including the members of your congregation.

    (3). Realize that your 501c-3 called Village Church is not equivalent to the Kingdom of God. Yes, you play a huge and vital role in His Kingdom, but your non-profit and His Kingdom are not synonymous. Therefore, next time anyone decides they wish to leave your non-profit, let them go.
    As a side note, I do wish to encourage you in your continued ministry to Jordan Root. Unlike some, I believe you have an interest in the victims of his abuse. My friends have a hard time believing that you are as concerned for the victims because you’ve taken one of his victims — his wife — to the proverbial gates of hell because she dared disagree with the manner in which you were progressing in your ministry toward her and her former husband.

    Prove everyone wrong and apologize to Karen Hinckley. Accept her resignation of membership. And then stop viewing your office as pastor/elder of Village Church as the ultimate authority in the Kingdom of God.

    Jesus Christ is Karen Hinckley’s ultimate authority, and He has led her to resign her membership.

    Don’t argue with Jesus. 🙂 “

  427. Daisy wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Acts29 is everywhere.
    Oh. So Ladybird’s church is likely an Acts29 plant?

    I don’t know, because she/he might just be part of the mindset which extends beyond the formal bounds of Acts29. This is something that goes way beyond what it first seems. Remember the pre-emptive shut-up posts? This is a threat to their System. And they know it. The whole Complementarian selling point of loving and protecting women has blown up, and that is why there is either panic/excuse-making or dead silence.

  428. Never Again wrote:

    That man should not be around kids. Period. Not in the pews, not in the hallways, not in the restrooms, not anywhere. He won’t be looking at children and seeing them in the same way you or I would. He sexualizes children and fantasizes about them. He defiles them simply by his proximity.

    I confess I had not thought of that. Which shows how little I know about the topic of child sexual abuse. I’m getting an education.

  429. Ladybird wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:

    while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic.

    Your posts show that you are behind the times. We have an EPIDEMIC of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that exceeds that of the Catholic Church according to the insurance companies (like Church Mutual) and
    the lawyers who advise churches and write on these topics (like Richard Hammar at Church Law & Tax).

    You go off on tangents that have NOTHING to do with child safety. You said you have children. Have you always been this goofy and irresponsible?

  430. @ Gram3:
    goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

  431. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    Ladybird wrote:
    while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic.
    Your posts show that you are behind the times. We have an EPIDEMIC of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that exceeds that of the Catholic Church according to the insurance companies (like Church Mutual) and
    the lawyers who advise churches and write on these topics (like Richard Hammar at Church Law & Tax).
    You go off on tangents that have NOTHING to do with child safety. You said you have children. Have you always been this goofy and irresponsible?

    well I take this as a sign that you all are 1: bullies and 2: really just want this to be an echo chamber for yalls good pleasure. I believe there are some decent people here- and if so, I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

  432. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

    How old are you? You seem to have a lot of rough edges. Gram3 is really lovely and you would do well to comport yourself in the genteel manner that she does.

  433. Bridget wrote:

    Never Again wrote:

    Jordan Root should not be allowed to stimulate his perverted fantasies by sitting in church services with sweet, innocent, trusting little kids all dressed up in their Sunday best.

    Nor sweet, poor, and downtrodden children on the mission field.

    Bridget, I agree 100%.

    The irony of his not being charged with a crime and not even being put under formal church discipline (!) is that there isn’t much to ever stop that from happening. If TVC vouches that he is repentant and cooperative and has submitted to church care and counsel,he could potentially return to ‘ministry’ to vulnerable children.

    Every paid or volunteer job or ministry he has ever been connected with had him very close to kids at their most needy, most exposed, and most powerless. He is a predator, plain and simple, drawn to exploitable kids like a moth to a flame.

    TVC is in way over their heads. They have not thought this through very well.

  434. Ladybird wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    Ladybird wrote:
    while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic.
    Your posts show that you are behind the times. We have an EPIDEMIC of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that exceeds that of the Catholic Church according to the insurance companies (like Church Mutual) and
    the lawyers who advise churches and write on these topics (like Richard Hammar at Church Law & Tax).
    You go off on tangents that have NOTHING to do with child safety. You said you have children. Have you always been this goofy and irresponsible?

    well I take this as a sign that you all are 1: bullies and 2: really just want this to be an echo chamber for yalls good pleasure. I believe there are some decent people here- and if so, I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

    ????

    Most mothers would crawl through glass to protect their children. Your lack of concern for the well-being of ANY church’s children is alarming.

    There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church.
    Sources: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the U.S., and
    Richard Hammar, attorney, at Church Law & Tax.

    Stay on point: What DO YOU PROPOSE that should be done to protect children in the church?

  435. Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.
    How old are you? You seem to have a lot of rough edges. Gram3 is really lovely and you would do well to comport yourself in the genteel manner that she does.

    I don’t believe that about her for one bit. Rough edges? Good! I like that you think that about me 🙂
    Off to enjoy my husband and kiddos. Take Care y’all!

  436. Ladybird wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    @ Gram3:
    goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.
    How old are you? You seem to have a lot of rough edges. Gram3 is really lovely and you would do well to comport yourself in the genteel manner that she does.

    I don’t believe that about her for one bit. Rough edges? Good! I like that you think that about me
    Off to enjoy my husband and kiddos. Take Care y’all!

    Well the Lord doesn’t like His daughters to have rough edges.

  437. Ladybird wrote:

    I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

    . . . working for the Body? What does that mean.

  438. Gram3 wrote:

    This is something that goes way beyond what it first seems. Remember the pre-emptive shut-up posts? This is a threat to their System. And they know it. The whole Complementarian selling point of loving and protecting women has blown up, and that is why there is either panic/excuse-making or dead silence.

    This is something we cannot lose sight of. You are right. The comp house of cards falls with their treatment of Karen. It is all documented. Instead of protecting her, they abused/oppressed her for something not her fault at all. They actually expected her to ask their permission before she annulled her fraudulent marriage to a Christian missionary pedophile. Tbey were pressuring her to stay in financial and married purgatory until THEY decided what she was allowed to do.

    Right. They really had the woman’s best interests at heart! Karen is an example of where comp doctrine leads to.

  439. Ladybird wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

    Sometimes I miss posts. I am a mom, wife, grandmother, and a fellow sister in Christ. We disagree strongly. Honestly, I have trouble seeing your viewpoint from a conservative Christian perspective, which is what I’ve always been. Likewise you can’t see the perspective of those of us who say that the abusive doctrines and practices must be stopped. Enough is enough of the culture of celebrity and power in what should represent the King whom we are supposed to serve. These men do not look like the Jesus we know from the Bible.

    I will not be quiet because someone says I’m not nice. These men have not been very nice to Karen, so that’s not a really persuasive argument, IMO. These are abusive men with passive enablers and aggressive defenders. I’m direct, usually logical, but I am not syrupy sweet like a good little woman is supposed to be in PatriarchyWorld. That’s how my parents raised me. To see people, and especially women, give up their freedom in Christ is just astonishing to me. Why would anyone throw away something so precious and so costly to our Savior?

    So I will speak up for the little people, whether children or others that have been placed under oppressive systems. If you don’t like what we say here, then you might be more comfortable elsewhere. However, I truly hope you stay and contribute positively to the discussion we are having about a very serious problem in the church, but that is your choice. You can also choose to lob petty potshots. It would be like me going over to any Gospel Glitterati blog and lobbing petty potshots at them. I would love to have a rational discussion, but they do not permit dissenting views. Because power.

    I’m too old to be what these arrogant young men who are defaming the name of our Savior want me to be and want all of my younger sisters in Christ to be. Rather I choose to be like Jesus who had strong words for those who took pride in their strength and gentle words for those who were weak and oppressed. Enough. They need to stop using Jesus as a marketing mask and start looking like him. For a change.

  440. Ladybird wrote:

    So I came and read and some things – like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

    Cough. Splutter. What was Christ-like about what The Village Church/Matt Chandler & Company did to Karen? That poor saint has been through so much
    and this is what they do to her? Lie about her before 6000 people? In my opinion there isn’t a real man in that church’s leadership. No real man does that to a woman or to anybody else.

    The didn’t treat Karen like an ‘heir in Christ’.

    The Village Church, not bloggers, brought a reproach upon Christ through their despicable actions.

  441. Michaela wrote:

    The didn’t treat Karen like an ‘heir in Christ’.

    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

  442. Bridget wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

    . . . working for the Body? What does that mean.

    Translation: Shoot-out at the Not-Ok Corral with Sheriff Gram3 and Deputies (Daisy and others) didn’t go as planned.

  443. Gram3 wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    The didn’t treat Karen like an ‘heir in Christ’.

    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

    Spot on, Gram3.

  444. Ladybird wrote:

    like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

    What do you have against Americans using their right of free speech to appear peacefully outside a church, and maybe talk to some of the folks going into the church building?

    All they want to do is hold up a few signs, or maybe hand out flyers, alerting the church goers that they have a pedophile among them.

    It’s not as though this group is going to bring AK-47s, rocket launchers, and grenades to hurl at the church building, or the people who are going inside.

  445. Daisy wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

    What do you have against Americans using their right of free speech to appear peacefully outside a church, and maybe talk to some of the folks going into the church building?

    All they want to do is hold up a few signs, or maybe hand out flyers, alerting the church goers that they have a pedophile among them.

    Yes, Daisy. I’ve been thinking that too: the First Amendment at work.

  446. Gram3 wrote:

    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Seriously, Jesus died for all sins except one. Eve’s. We’ve got to live with that forever, according to the comp guys.

  447. Michaela wrote:

    How old are you?

    I was wondering that myself.

    I first thought (and still maybe do) that this person may be a troll, but maybe the behavior is due to immaturity.

    This person comes across to me as being rather deliberately obtuse and somewhat flippant about child abuse in churches.

  448. Daisy wrote:

    What do you have against Americans using their right of free speech to appear peacefully outside a church, and maybe talk to some of the folks going into the church building?
    All they want to do is hold up a few signs, or maybe hand out flyers, alerting the church goers that they have a pedophile among them.
    It’s not as though this group is going to bring AK-47s, rocket launchers, and grenades to hurl at the church building, or the people who are going inside.

    There was a protest yesterday here in Phoenix (other side of the city) where people did show up with AK-47s and megaphones. They were anti-Muslim and they were protesting the presence of a mosque that has been in the city for a few decades. It was ugly. And yes, there was preaching from at least one of the protesters, telling people they needed Jesus and to read their Bibles. All I could thing was, “Guys, you spew hatred and you’re preaching Jesus? Nope.”

    I myself have picketed the church of Scientology on numerous occasions. I have always kept my picket signs truthful and stayed away from church teachings. There’s plenty of church behavior to concentrate on (e.g., it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get up the bridge in Scientology, people have been badly treated in Scientology’s Sea Org, and the Sea Org has what is essentially a prison camp near Hemet, CA). I’m happy with the results over the last 20 year–Scientology is now the gold standard and go-to for “this is a cult.”

    And, to be perfectly blunt, some of the actions of Matt Chandler’s The Village Church could be compared to Scientology. For example, there was a Scientologist who sexually assaulted the child of another Scientologist, but it was kept internal because the guy was in a particular positive status (either “power” or “affluence”, I can’t remember). Why does this remind me of TVC? And why do I expect better out of followers of Jesus Christ than of followers of L. Ron Hubbard?

  449. Lydia wrote:

    The comp house of cards falls with their treatment of Karen. It is all documented. Instead of protecting her, they abused/oppressed her for something not her fault at all.

    Like I was just saying on another thread this evening, -a reminder- about how around a month ago Owen Strachan of CBMW did several tweets saying how gender complementarians do not tolerate domestic violence, they protect women, etc.

    This was around the time some sports guy was in the news because he had been charge with domestic violence, and one of his sports matches was about to be televised.

    It was really sad to see a complementarian organization claiming that comps protect women, when they usually throw abused wives to the wolves and protect the abusive husband instead.

  450. Daisy wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    How old are you?

    I was wondering that myself.

    I first thought (and still maybe do) that this person may be a troll, but maybe the behavior is due to immaturity.

    This person comes across to me as being rather deliberately obtuse and somewhat flippant about child abuse in churches.

    The posts still sound like a troll. They know too much internal information, have an intractable stance, and it seems like $ is behind their posts.

  451. mirele wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Seriously, Jesus died for all sins except one. Eve’s. We’ve got to live with that forever, according to the comp guys.

    ^^^^Yes, I remember somebody here posting this about Eve. Brilliant.

  452. Daisy wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    The comp house of cards falls with their treatment of Karen. It is all documented. Instead of protecting her, they abused/oppressed her for something not her fault at all.

    Like I was just saying on another thread this evening, -a reminder- about how around a month ago Owen Strachan of CBMW did several tweets saying how gender complementarians do not tolerate domestic violence, they protect women, etc.

    It was really sad to see a complementarian organization claiming that comps protect women, when they usually throw abused wives to the wolves and protect the abusive husband instead.

    And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

  453. Gram3 wrote:

    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

    This is so insightful. As this whole story has been unfolding (along with the Duggar story, for that matter), essentially everything about my childhood that was harmful has been brought to the surface for me. And so much of what hurt me was a flawed theology that was used against me. I’m really going to think over this comment- I feel like it will help me understand much of what I went through.

    I’m glad the troll has disappeared for the evening at least… I agree with what Daisy said as coming across as deliberately obtuse.

  454. mirele wrote:

    There was a protest yesterday here in Phoenix (other side of the city) where people did show up with AK-47s and megaphones. They were anti-Muslim and they were protesting the presence of a mosque that has been in the city for a few decades. It was ugly. And yes, there was preaching from at least one of the protesters, telling people they needed Jesus and to read their Bibles. All I could thing was, “Guys, you spew hatred and you’re preaching Jesus? Nope.”

    Oh, yuk!

  455. Daisy wrote:

    somewhat flippant about child abuse in churches.

    That is what puzzles me. Ladybird, when someone says something like “Yes child abuse is terrible, but picketing a church is truly awful,” people wonder about your priorities and even how you evaluate issues.

    Let’s assume for the sake of argument that it is unwise to provide information to the people going to The Village. Is the magnitude of that impropriety even on the same planet with a church which hid the presence of an offender and which spiritually harassed and bullied a woman who was totally innocent. And they abused her spiritually because of a violation of a rule which was never even in the covenant that they want to use to bludgeon her in the first place! This is a farce of the tragic sort.

    The sin of the ELDERS against the people at The Village and against Christ himself and against Karen is a compound and very grievous sin committed by self-anointed Spiritual Authorities against their Lord, his name, and the people for whom they will give account. I think that maybe the Lord is not entirely displeased with our efforts to secure a little payment on that account now.

    This is why we cannot even hear what you are saying. The roar of this outrageous behavior by men claiming to represent Jesus and trumpeting their System which they market as protecting women and children is simply too overpowering to hear your objections to people providing information because it is Sunday and can’t they just go to church in peace. No, they need to be responsible citizens of the Kingdom now, and they need to grow up into Christ instead of sucking on a pacifier in a baby swing. I had no idea you thought that people at The Village could not handle some information.

  456. @ Gram3:
    Those were not Ladybird’s words, just to be clear. I am characterizing what I hear her saying which may not be what she is actually saying.

  457. Ladybird wrote:

    Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ.

    I was elsewhere most of the day and just now catching up. What an interesting display of aggressive passive posting, alternating between contentious posts, opening with one, and then complaining of bullying.

    Satan LOVES this.

    This is nothing but division within the body for clicks and notoriety.

    He loves liars and abusers

    addressed my thoughts on Karen- we part ways there. I don’t they abused her or bullied her.

    well I take this as a sign that you all are 1: bullies

    I’m uncomfortable with harsh discussion also, but then I don’t go looking for it. When you burst into the room with guns blazing you typically don’t get a warm reception.

    My primary problem is the accusation of abuse here and yet the denial that TVC abused Karen. I’m not sure where to start a discussion if you think the treatment of Karen is not abuse.

  458. Gram3,

    You are a gem and I so love you as my older, wiser, funnier sister in the Lord. You have a laser sharp focus. Thanks for all of your great posts. You give me hope.

    Your Papa raised a fine daughter.

  459. Michaela wrote:

    And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

    Doug Wilson and the pedophile coverup at New St. Andrews. Which is merely one of that person’s disgusting and disgraceful acts.

  460. Bill M wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    EvilWatchWitchBlogs

    Hey now, there is a warlock or two here.

    And a Headless Unicorn and an Atheist.

  461. Bill M wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    EvilWatchWitchBlogs
    Hey now, there is a warlock or two here.

    You have to say the magic words rapidly 10 times to be admitted: EvilWartWarlockWitchWatch

  462. Bill M wrote:

    My primary problem is the accusation of abuse here and yet the denial that TVC abused Karen. I’m not sure where to start a discussion if you think the treatment of Karen is not abuse.

    I feel like that is a more difficult point to make. As much as people want to deny the seriousness of what Jordan Root has done, they will eventually cop to the fact of his crimes. But the spiritual abuse of Karen, and others who have been coming forward with their stories of mistreatment at TVC? I just don’t know how to convey to people who condone the behavior of TVC that it is in fact abusive. It’s not ‘firmly rooted in the word of God’ (or whatever the phrasing was in the non-apology.)

  463. Bill M wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ.

    I was elsewhere most of the day and just now catching up. What an interesting display of aggressive passive posting, alternating between contentious posts, opening with one, and then complaining of bullying.

    into the room with guns blazing you typically don’t get a warm reception.

    My primary problem is the accusation of abuse here and yet the denial that TVC abused Karen. I’m not sure where to start a discussion if you think the treatment of Karen is not abuse.

    I thought Ladybird made one genuinely honest statement: Not everyone here is working for the Body.

    Yes, the rest of it are doing it for FREE. And I think Lady/ManBird is a hired troll.

  464. Gram3 wrote:

    Puddy Tat’s rule

    Okay I’m a little unclear
    Puddy Tat’s rule: questioning someone’s salvation?

    If that is correct then I think we need another one base on today’s TVC defenders. Can we define another classification for the “Satan LOVES this”. The classical argument, basically silencing of any open criticism because, oh my, people will hear. These folks must have their ears and eyes closed to miss all the criticism of the churches by the new testament authors, especially Jesus words to the churches in Revelations.

    Suggestions? hush hush rule?

  465. proudjezebel wrote:

    And so much of what hurt me was a flawed theology that was used against me. I’m really going to think over this comment- I feel like it will help me understand much of what I went through.

    What you were taught was not true and is not true and will never be true. It is the experience of people like you that makes me very angry with the lies that have been perpetuated and planted deep in the souls of young women who do not feel worthy and in the souls of young men who are taught to devalue their sisters in order to validate themselves. It is a vicious and hateful ideology that is masked by sweet words and promises. I believe that most people who teach it do not intend to harm, but the damage is done nonetheless.

    I pray that you will be able to see past what you were taught and what was done to you in Jesus’ name. He is not like that. He revealed himself to the women in the garden after his resurrection. The really cool thing about that is that they were there to attend to his body so that the men would not be defiled and be unable to enter the Temple. While the men were preparing to go to the Temple, the women were meeting the Risen Lord! That is the picture I think of. He reveals himself to those who are willing to do the humble and “defiling” things in order to serve. Their devotion to him was rewarded with the great privilege of seeing the Lord they were mourning that Resurrection morning. That is how Jesus sees the women who love him.

    The proud and religious scribes and Pharisees were blinded by their laws and the Sadducees by their rejection of the resurrection. I’ll go with the simplicity of faith in the Risen Lord without the laws and rules made by men to feel righteous. His righteousness is way more than enough for me.

  466. proudjezebel wrote:

    I just don’t know how to convey to people who condone the behavior of TVC that it is in fact abusive.

    I guess you are right, till you have experienced it, or in my case it was people I care about, you don’t think in those terms. But even if you don’t consider it rising to the level of abuse, and you should, this type of treatment should not happen in a church.

  467. proudjezebel wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

    This is so insightful. As this whole story has been unfolding (along with the Duggar story, for that matter), essentially everything about my childhood that was harmful has been brought to the surface for me. And so much of what hurt me was a flawed theology that was used against me. I’m really going to think over this comment- I feel like it will help me understand much of what I went through.

    I’m glad the troll has disappeared for the evening at least… I agree with what Daisy said as coming across as deliberately obtuse.

    @proudjezebel,

    Here are the links to Dr. Ronald Enroth’s well-known books about abusive churches, in case you would find them helpful. He has made them available for
    free.

    1. Churches That Abuse
    http://www.ccel.us/churches.toc.html

    2. Recovering From Churches That Abuse
    http://www.ccel.us/churchesrec.toc.html

  468. Michaela wrote:

    Yes, the rest of it are doing it for FREE

    Good point, it reminds me of some who say they are in public service when we all serve the public in one fashion or another. From my point of view they are simply working for the government.
    So agreed, being on the church payroll does not ennoble you.

  469. @ Bill M:
    Well what do you know, the html automagically inserted itself.

    Anyway, kids nowadays just don’t know what they’ve missed with jukebox music. Nickel for the jukebox, nickel for the Coke. I think the burgers were 15 cents.

  470. Gram3 wrote:

    Anyway, kids nowadays just don’t know what they’ve missed with jukebox music.

    You miss a lot when your nose is in a cell phone all day.

  471. Texas Truthsayer wrote:

    Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

    I find this very interesting, given that TVC adheres to “biblical counseling” AKA Nouthetic Counseling, and that they explicitly reject “secular psychology.”

    So is Chandler admitting that “secular psychology” is actually valid, given that “secular psychology” asserts that Jordan Root will never be “cured?”

    Or does Chandler believe that God can/will miraculously heal Jordan Root from his pedophilia?

    Does Chandler think that pedophilia is a psychological illness or simply a sin issue? His actions here, while commendable, seem to directly contradict his own stated beliefs and TVC’s policies regarding secular psychology vs. nouthetic counseling.

  472. @ Lydia:

    I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll mention it again. (And you all can tell me to shut up about it as needed).

    When someone loudly and aggressively protests the same issue over and over again, it’s wise to wonder if they “doth protest too much.”

    Example: famous preachers (one a few years ago, one just recently) who make homosexuality their “cause” and constantly critique it, only to be found out as closet homosexuals.

    Example: a preacher who manages to somehow work the topic of “adultery” into any and every sermon, only to be found out as a serial adulterer.

    So, if a preacher continually screeches about how women need to be protected from various predators, perhaps it is wise to begin to wonder if this man himself has predatory tendencies?

    And in this case, it is particularly relevant to note that Matt Chandler is known to have indulged in especially volatile outbursts from the pulpit regarding predatory men who might victimize young women at TVC.

  473. Bill M wrote:

    Can we define another classification for the “Satan LOVES this”. The classical argument, basically silencing of any open criticism because, oh my, people will hear. These folks must have their ears and eyes closed to miss all the criticism of the churches by the new testament authors, especially Jesus words to the churches in Revelations.
    Suggestions? hush hush rule?

    The Satan Juke?

    There’s already a Jesus Juke rule, please see
    http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/16/the-jesus-juke/

  474. “So yeah- he’s not coddling anyone. Please. Seriously. This language is baseless.”

    Ladybird you really are a heartless person, you remind me of why I will never go to church again for the rest of my life.

    Why did they NOT put the man that was watching child porn in church discipline?

    These MEN put a woman who could not stomach a man that looks at porn of children being sexually abused in church discipline.

    The child sex offender belongs in church discipline, so yes! They are coddling a man that likes child porn.

    “This language is baseless.” The opinions of a person that was sexually abused as a child is baseless, when the topic is about sexually abused children. You really do fit in at a church that disciplines those who hate child sexual abuse, but do not discipline those that do sexually abuse children.

  475. Bill M wrote:

    Sylvester’s law

    Ok, I’m going to have to put a list together when I have some time as because there are so many I thought they could all go under “Sylvester’s law”. We shall be using Bill M’s “Sylvster’s law” in five years time and have forgotten its origins ! The other one that Gram3 alluded to – how about “Because.Satin”? All of them have in common an attempt at shaming or silencing.

  476. Michaela wrote:

    Texas Truthsayer These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

    That’s a pompous remark to make. This woman has been through how much? Had a church leadership that threatened her, disciplined her after she left before 6000 members, threatened the SIM international ministry and wanted to control her standing with them (and The Village Church threatened the funding of other missionaries too), she’s level-headed through it all…and this is your conclusion about her?

    Bless your little heart, you are a piece of work!

    Texas Truthsayer,

    Please do not defame Karen here at Wartburg Watch. You are disconnected from reality on this subject. It’s plain denial on your part. Said a prayer that God opens the eyes of your heart to truth of this situation. How many children will be hurt and sexually abused before you have eyes to see?

  477. Patrice wrote:

    I gave her a drubbing in Matthew Paul Turner’s combox.

    I see. I might check it out later. Thanks for the info.

  478. Bill M wrote:

    If that is correct then I think we need another one base on today’s TVC defenders. Can we define another classification for the “Satan LOVES this”. The classical argument, basically silencing of any open criticism because, oh my, people will hear. These folks must have their ears and eyes closed to miss all the criticism of the churches by the new testament authors, especially Jesus words to the churches in Revelations.

    I saw it more as a convo stopper. It is supposed to stop you dead in your tracks. She did not even attempt to make a scritpural case for exactly what it is Satan would love. But judging by her other words I would think she was referring to anything that makes the church look bad, satan loves.

    There is a theme that runs through that movement that NOTHING in this world is more important that the church. They conflat the 502c3 institution with Jesus Christ.

    It is really an “image” problem for them. Anything that does not make the church look good is evil and from Satan. Of course their leaders make the church look horrible but that is different. They get a consequences pass cos they are Christian leaders. God appointed them.

    If you note, she had some inkling of concern for children because she was suggesting we could ask permission of the authoritiarian leaders (who caused all this in the first place) if we could come and do training about protecting children.

    There are some people who cannot hear themselves and this is one of those cases. Sadly, many in the church are exactly like this. I have come to see that their identity is so wrapped up in the church name or as the leaders followers that any bad press is felt as an indictment on them. They are on automatic defense and the best defense is an offense so those who bring news they don’t like are doing Satans work.

    These are not people you are ever going to have a reasonable convo with. They are more concerned about image problems for the church than the innocent victims. In fact, the victims are the problem to them.

  479. Patrice wrote:

    Read your comments at recently-linked SBC post. They do not know how to relate to women. I’ve rarely seen it that clearly.

    Sometimes I forget how bad it is because I am out of that world. They have absolutely no idea and would defend to the death how wrong you are about them and relating to a female humoid. If I were Larry instead of Lydia, it would go differently. But even they cannot see that. It is futile to even discuss that with them.

    Thing is, I don’t care so it is no big deal. Trying to be accepted into their world is an exercise in futility.

    Here is something I would have liked to say but it would have been moderated so I did not bother.

    Christian Academy of Louisville stopped renting facilities to CJ Mahaney (when he fled to Louisville to start his new church) after the lawsuit came out and bloggers were contacting them. Why? Because schools have to show a ZERO tolerance for child molesters. And they have to show 100% EFFORT to protect kids.

    Even the position of innocent until proven guilty is a problem for schools, especially private ones that rely on tuition. No one wants to take that chance so they move on it. I wish public schools were the same.

    The school stopped renting to them before anyone from SG was convicted.

    Pastors and churches don’t get this? They should focus on 100% effort to protect children from predators. That means not being “fair” to guys like Jordon. Because most pastors are the first to say, ‘that is not fair’ to the repentent sexual predator. So be it. It is a crime that never leaves them for the rest of their lives. They lived a long con of deception about who they really are and we are supposed to believe they have changed and bring them in around kids?

  480. Gram3 wrote:

    As for the shut-up rule, I propose this bit of Doo Wop which popped immediately into my head:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9G0-4TWwew

    Oh Gram! I loved that tune when it came out! I think our music was so meaningful and happy in those days. Remember the Platters and “I’m Sorry!” And you couldn’t stop smiling when Chubby Checkers performed.

    Thanks for the memories, Gram!

  481. Haitch wrote:

    All of them have in common an attempt at shaming or silencing.

    You’ve nailed it. Putting a list together would be a worthy endeavor. I wish this site had an accompanying list for all the acronyms also.

    Gram’s Doo Wop is before my time.

  482. Lydia wrote:

    These are not people you are ever going to have a reasonable convo with.

    They are referred to by some of the nones I talk with as “company people”.

  483. @ Mr.H:
    Truth is they have really no control over Jordon. These types became an albatross for church leaders. Because of their structure they eventually will have to use “paid minders/security” if they have to keep up the appearance of church discipline. Church discipline will be more than they bargained for and Jordon will be passed off over and over. But for now, Jordon will be embraced and I suspect my the covenant members too becasue they take their cues from the leaders.

    I suggest they would be relieved if Jordon were to officially terminate his membership eventually. Their church discipline shitck really becomes an albratross in these type situations. It will be interesting if there is a “Where is Jordon now” followup in 3 years.

    I am thinking right now of a situation where a clever murderer got off. Everyone knew he did the grisly murder but there was no real evidence. After the trial he comes forward at a mega church “giving his life to Jesus”. What to do??? The trial was very well known and in the papers every day.

    The leaders did not have the nerve to deal with him privately and say it is best if you are not here right now. Give it some time. They made a big deal of him giving his life to Jesus.

    Years later he was finally convited of perjury because the family of the victim, his girlfriend, did not let it go. And years after he served his short sentence, someone bought his old house and while ripping up all the carpet, found pictures of the grisly crime in a ziplock bag. He had chopped off her limbs put her in trash bags and buried them. Double jeporady meant he could not be retried. But the mega church gave him plenty of cred when he needed it most.

    Deviants often use the church/Jesus as cover. The worst thing we can do is play into their hands. It is perfectly ok to be cautious and proceed with the utmost caution. And it is ok to warn people.

  484. Victorious wrote:

    Remember the Platters and “I’m Sorry!”

    Ooops…the Platters sang “The Great Pretender.” Brenda Lee sang, “I’m Sorry.”

    …and I’m sorry for the topic detour… 🙂

  485. Bridget wrote:

    Ladybird wrote:
    I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.
    . . . working for the Body? What does that mean?

    “You are not of The Body.
    You are Archons.
    You must be Absorbed into the Will of Landru.”

  486. Ladybird wrote:

    well ladies- I don’t agree with y’all and I don’t think how you’ve handled things are 100% on point but its a free world. I do hope that -as you ask TVC to reflect – that you will do the same.
    I have to get back to my weekend and my kids 🙂

    Is Ladybird (gasp) Kamilla?

  487. Michaela wrote:

    And I think Lady/ManBird is a hired troll.

    Well, I also did think Lady/ManBird was working from a basement with a packet of cheetos in his lap.

  488. proudjezebel wrote:

    And an agnostic lesbian feminist. (triple whammy) *raises hand*

    Unfortunately you left out ‘liberal’ and ‘non-Anglo Saxon’ but three out of five isn’t bad.

  489. Lydia wrote:

    @
    Double jeporady meant he could not be retried. But the mega church gave him plenty of cred when he needed it most.

    In law there is dual sovereignty which means a person can be tried more than one time for the same crime (i.e. federal and state prosecutions; if a person committed a crime that involved two states, etc.).

    “Dual-Sovereignty Doctrine refers to a legal principle that more than one sovereign may prosecute an individual without violating the prohibition against double jeopardy if the individual’s act breaks the laws of each sovereignty. Therefore the federal and state governments may both prosecute someone for a crime, without violating the constitutional protection against double jeopardy, if the person’s act violated both jurisdictions’ laws.”

  490. Knitted in the Womb wrote:

    Any updates on how the protest went?
    Has Karen been contacted (or her lawyer) by TVC leaders to apologize, or is the public statement supposed to serve as the “apology?”

    I was there. No media came. There were 4 of us, and we stood out there for 2 hours. We handed out several flyers, some to a couple of people who live in the residential area near the church. I don’t know the answers to your second question. I expect Amy from WatchKeep will be posting on that soon. (Find her on Twitter for updates, as well.) I’ve had a friend who is a member at TVC posting all kinds of statements you’d expect from one who is taught to never question authority, as it seems to be the case at these Acts29 churches. I finally said I would stop debating the issue (on my FB). I’ve been told that I don’t really understand it since I’m unwilling to listen to his sermons, and I’m not ‘walking alongside the church’ in this matter. Hmm. Don’t agree with that. The denial is strong in this one. It’s very frustrating to me, personally. But I’m hopeful that our signs and flyers this morning got some people to question what’s going on. (I’ve linked my Twitter on here, as well- I posted some screenshots of that conversation, if anyone is interested). It felt very empowering to me, personally. But I’m feeling a little disheartened after hearing one of the sheeple spout off all kinds of nonsense and refuse to be reasoned with. Honestly, I’m afraid Chandler et. al. are doubling down on the problematic membership covenant theology and just going the more secretive route with it. There are so many that have been hurt by this church. Plenty of adults have been spiritually abused. I guess people will believe what they want to believe. Chandler is an idol to many.

  491. proudjezebel wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    And a Headless Unicorn and an Atheist.
    And an agnostic lesbian feminist. (triple whammy) *raises hand*

    And a lesbian feminist Episcopal priest. Mwa ha ha!

  492. Credit needs to be given to Chandler and TVC elders to owning up to it serious mistakes with the Roots and with others. Chandler did an excellent job in confessing and asking forgiveness in five specific areas in which there was major fault on the elders part. He opened the door wide open to make things right with anyone who had been offended or hurt in any way. I encourage you to listen to the message online.

  493. @ Jack:
    You are being paid how much per post to say the same thing over and over. You are writing to people who have a lot of real world experience. He did an excellent job of delivering a PR message. He stayed on message, but the problem is that his actions and the actions of the ELDERS do not match their words. When it comes to words v. actions, I choose actions. Let us know when they repent of their false teaching and disgraceful actions.

  494. Haitch wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    And I think Lady/ManBird is a hired troll.

    Well, I also did think Lady/ManBird was working from a basement with a packet of cheetos in his lap.

    Lady/Man/Bird?
    Is that anything like Man/Bear/Pig?

  495. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Jack:
    He did an excellent job of delivering a PR message. He stayed on message, but the problem is that his actions and the actions of the ELDERS do not match their words. When it comes to words v. actions, I choose actions.

    “You have a saying: ‘Knowledge is a three-edged sword.’
    We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.'”
    — Captain Sheridan, Babylon-5

  496. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Haitch wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    And I think Lady/ManBird is a hired troll.

    Well, I also did think Lady/ManBird was working from a basement with a packet of cheetos in his lap.

    Lady/Man/Bird?
    Is that anything like Man/Bear/Pig?

    Speculation was that “LadyBird” was really a man in yesterday’s round of posts.
    With Sheriff Gram3 in the lead and backed up by various Deputies (such Daisy),
    The Sheriff won the “shootout” and “Lady/Man/Bird” whimpered away.

  497. proudjezebel wrote:

    I was there. No media came. There were 4 of us, and we stood out there for 2 hours. We handed out several flyers, some to a couple of people who live in the residential area near the church….It felt very empowering to me, personally. But I’m feeling a little disheartened after hearing one of the sheeple spout off all kinds of nonsense and refuse to be reasoned with. Honestly, I’m afraid Chandler et. al. are doubling down on the problematic membership covenant theology and just going the more secretive route with it. There are so many that have been hurt by this church. Plenty of adults have been spiritually abused. I guess people will believe what they want to believe. Chandler is an idol to many.

    I am so proud of you for going! I would have gone too if I lived there.
    Yes, it’s unfortunate that people get drawn in to abusive, destructive churches of any size (and there are churches that are much smaller that are just as bad).
    I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

  498. Matt’s web page on today’s topic states:
    “As Christians, we are indeed our brother’s or sister’s keeper. We must speak truth into others’ lives and guide them back to the truth when they wander.”

    Really? I just did a word search on biblegateway, and I didn’t find this.

    I thought that the Holy Spirit (not man), guided.

    “Back” to the truth? What is the truth, according to Matt?

    How can a Christian minister to the one who he enslaves?

    If one does not want to be ministered to, are we to force ministry down their throats, calling it, “But I’m your keeper”?

    Sorry, but there is way too much controlling in this.

    A good start would be to scrap the idea of a membership covenant, because once a person is a Christian, they are a member of the body of Christ, and that is worldwide, and therefore, we are a free people, and can come and go to any church in any part of the world as we please. we are not obligated to stay in one church building. We are not obligated to stay at any one denomination, either. We are free. Any person that puts people into bondage under a contract is a slave owner. No thanks Matt…try again, there, buddy.

    The Apostle Paul had a HUGE contention with Mark:

    Acts 15:37-39
    37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

    38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

    39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

    Who did Paul ask permission from to break fellowship with Mark? What, no contract?

    The only contract is between Karen, and Jesus…it’s called the New/second Testament/Covenant.

    Matt…get thee behind me, Satan!

    Ed Chapman

  499. Michaela wrote:

    I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

    I think this is spot-on. A friend of mine who actually cares for me deeply (not the TVC version of “care”) suggested caution with how much I engage in conversation with these types, with emphasis on self-care, and a note of consideration on recognizing when it’s a losing situation that won’t resolve anything. That’s sort of what I have felt today. It’s hard when you’re so emotionally invested in this- this whole case is just reminding me so much of things I went through as a kid- to step back and consider these things. It just seems so obvious, I thought for sure if I presented the facts, some people would see what’s really going on, but that just isn’t the case with everyone. And that’s where the balance with waiting for all those things in people’s lives, comes in.

  500. Mr.H wrote:

    And in this case, it is particularly relevant to note that Matt Chandler is known to have indulged in especially volatile outbursts from the pulpit regarding predatory men who might victimize young women at TVC.

    True, that.

  501. proudjezebel wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

    I think this is spot-on. A friend of mine who actually cares for me deeply (not the TVC version of “care”) suggested caution with how much I engage in conversation with these types, with emphasis on self-care, and a note of consideration on recognizing when it’s a losing situation that won’t resolve anything….I thought for sure if I presented the facts, some people would see what’s really going on, but that just isn’t the case with everyone. And that’s where the balance with waiting for all those things in people’s lives, comes in.

    I have learned that lesson too, some times the hard way.

  502. proudjezebel wrote:

    Michaela wrote:
    And a Headless Unicorn and an Atheist.
    And an agnostic lesbian feminist. (triple whammy) *raises hand*

    “Big wheel keep on turnin’
    Proudjez’bel keep on burnin’
    Rollin’
    Rollin’
    Rollin on the River…”

  503. Mr.H wrote:

    I find this very interesting, given that TVC adheres to “biblical counseling” AKA Nouthetic Counseling, and that they explicitly reject “secular psychology.”

    Just like Scientology adhering to “Dianetic Auditing”…

  504. Michaela wrote:

    And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

    That’s not a failure, that’s a feature.