This is dangerous ground that SNAP is treading. They are making accusations and assumptions (that may be correct) about JR and the extent of his involvement in paedophilia.

I would urge SNAP to wait on two accounts:
1. No staff member is accused of molesting children, yet that is why SNAP was created.
2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen. They can also paint JR as a victim because of #1 and yet SNAP is saying he is an “admittedly/credibly accused sex offender.” I repeat, AS OF YET, JR has not admitted to molesting children NOR has he been formally convicted under the law.

SNAP is rushing to a snap judgment. I strongly urge caution.

If it wasn’t a 6 hour drive, I’d go and protest with them….

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG – That made me laugh. Thank you.

Not in the least…

However, you never can be sure, can you…

Except, the “man behind the curtain” here can. He has know me a large portion of my life.

“he was discovered to be a pedophile and child pornographer”

In reading through all the information here this week, I’ve seen JR referred to as a pornographer several times, including SNAP’s release above. I am appalled by this whole situation and totally support Karen Hinkley, but I thought a pornographer was one who creates porn, and I don’t remember J being accused of that. Just wondering…

Burwell Stark wrote:

2. TVC staff can use this and play the victim card, thus taking everyone’s focus off their treatment of Karen. They can also paint JR as a victim because of #1 and yet SNAP is saying he is an “admittedly/credibly accused sex offender.” I repeat, AS OF YET, JR has not admitted to molesting children NOR has he been formally convicted under the law.

SNAP is rushing to a snap judgment. I strongly urge caution.

He has admitted to viewing child porn for nearly 10 years. That makes him a sex offender from all practical and moral standpoints, even if there is not enough concrete evidence to prosecute him.

He has also admitted to molesting children while he was a child. Again, that makes him a sex offender, even if it can’t be legally prosecuted. It also, by the vast body of research on the subject, means that he most likely has continued to molest children, even though he has not admitted to it.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I’m not sure what sort of protection people are up in arms about.

The precautions already in place are good ones. However I think the church leadership should also be strongly encouraging Jordan to enter intensive therapy for his sexual deviancies. I do not think they should be *requiring* it, because that would be legalistic and controlling just as it has been legalistic and controlling for them to attempt to require Karen to work on their time table for the annulment. But I do think they should be encouraging him to pursue appropriate therapy. Once a week therapy for a few months with a therapist who does not specialize in sexual deviancies is not appropriate therapy.

And, it looks like the TVC defenders are showing up. I’m not the Deebs, but I think you might want to read the last week’s worth of posts, because, as my Twitter profile says, I don’t suffer fools gladly.

So waiting until the investigation was complete before making private business public is a bad thing? Gotcha. Personally, I’m glad they waited for something official before letting people know. Also, nowhere does it say that their precautions were not already in place BEFORE members were notified of specifics. That’s speculation on your part. If they were already working to protect children, where is the harm? I care about my children being safe. If they were made safe without my knowledge why should that matter so long as their safety was guaranteed by the procedures put in place? Without formal legal charges being pursued by the DPD and FBI, I’m still not sure why it’s the publics’ business so long as the children are fully protected.

Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character? They heard you, sought outside counsel, reexamined their covenant and made apologies and changes. Had they not done that, you’d paint them as wicked and unbending. They confess and repent, owning up to mishandling, and you don’t like their wording or it’s all just spin. It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.

The flaw with waiting to tell members is this, children might be protected at the church building but if a kindhearted family invites Jordan for a meal, they have no idea what they just exposed their kids to. This is how it was in SGM,a lot of the molestation happened off church grounds, so in the church’s legal eyes they have covered their behinds but kids aren’t safe.

Texas T is not telling the truth about lots of things in this story. From Amy Smith’s blog about Karen’s story there is this threat that The Village Church gave to the missionary organization SIM, that Karen had served with:

“I had a new sending church in place and a job description approved by SIM field leadership prior to arriving at SIM USA headquarters in Charlotte for meetings beginning March 10th. There I was informed that The Village Church had threatened that if SIM kept me on active status, they would consider it a breach of the Partnership Agreement between SIM and TVC and TVC could no longer partner with SIM. This had significant implications, because there are several other SIM missionaries who are supported by The Village Church. As a result, SIM decided that I would not resume work on behalf of my team from Dallas after all. – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/#sthash.gldzTUxB.dpuf“

Jeff S wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
you don’t like their wording
I’m not discussing the rest of it (how they handled Jordan, what they should be doing now, etc), but my problem with their apology is not about their wording. The content of their apology is “we’re sorry for how we said what we did, but we still believe what we did was correct”.
Forcing a woman to stay married to a pedophile and assuming they are the final say over her marriage (including finances) is horrible doctrine and they need to repent of this. Saying “well, we said it badly” is NOT an apology and not an issue of wording.

It is if NONE of those things were their intention. These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

Anne wrote:

They may have protections in place to protect the children connected with their programs but it is sadly apparent they did not have and may still lack protocols for dealing with abusers in their midst. When ever a church takes matters of abuse into their own hands w/o involving the legal authorities first, it is a huge error. Taking pleasure in viewing other’s defilement of children is not any different than being the one doing the abuse – legally and morally. Jesus taught that just looking on a woman with lust the same as committing adultery. How much more so when it is a perverted lust for children?

I agree with you, Anne. And they worked with DPD and FBI…and want Jordan in intensive counseling. But if charges were not filed with DPD or FBI, and they have taken precautions for children, what’s left? Remove him from fellowship? Is he somehow less deserving of grace that you are? Admittedly that grace does not come at the expense of safety, but if both can be seen to, is it not the very mission of the body to reach into the mess and help restore?

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?

The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.

As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.

The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
“We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Village Church Dallas Northway Campus

If Jordan Root was really repentant at the Acts 29 Village Church, he would be helping Law Enforcement right now to break up the pedo rings that produced the kid porn he was viewing. Instead he is staying sheltered in the mega church

Texas Truthsayer These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

That’s a pompous remark to make. This woman has been through how much? Had a church leadership that threatened her, disciplined her after she left before 6000 members, threatened the SIM international ministry and wanted to control her standing with them (and The Village Church threatened the funding of other missionaries too), she’s level-headed through it all…and this is your conclusion about her?

Bless your little heart, you are a piece of work!

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Michaela wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
“We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”

There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.

So far that one party [Karen] has far more credibility than The Village Church.

Michaela wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Michaela wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Also, why wouldn’t I defend a church a men I know to be of good character?
The Village Church pastors/elders threatened the SIM missionary group, Karen’s standing with them, and the standing and financial support of other missionaries when Karen left The Village Church. It’s not a *mistake* and it doesn’t show *good character*. Ditto for *disciplining* Karen before 6000 members. Ditto for all of the other harms these pastors/elders have inflicted on other church members who have left. It’s all very calculated, including their pathetic non-apology. When growing up, if I had ever pulled that stunt in front of my parents – the non-apology routine – it would have just made my punishment all of the worse.
As the saying goes about making speeches: Be sincere, be brief, be seated.
The Village Church’s pastors/elders lack sincerity. They’re still looking for a convenient way out and to blame Karen. They should just tell people up front:
“We screwed up and we screwed up big time!”
There is no proof that SIM was manipulated or threatened in any way. That’s speculation based on comments from one party. If such a thing comes light with actual proof, we’ll have grounds for discussion.
So far that one party [Karen] has far more credibility than The Village Church.

In your opinion, sure. That’s fine. Although, unless you know her personally, or the TVC elders personally, I don’t know why that would be the case. It seems illogical.

Regarding Texas Truthsayer:

Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?

In political campaigns from 40 years ago, a “Truth Squad” was a team of Party spinmeisters on staff who would attempt to dominate the media with Spin for their candidate, trying to pre-empt the news media exposure and pre-emptively discredit the other guy’s spinmiesters. They would also get on the other guy’s media to spread confusion and distrust among his supporters.

sam wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.
“just as SNAP failed to mention the precautions already taken in their press release.”
TVC is showing a pattern of blame shifting and disparaging alot of people in this fiasco. Another earlier “press release” from TVC said that they had consulted with G.R.A.C.E and got their approval on the way the church handled pedos in the church. then they sent out a release saying that they did an internal look at how they handled the root thing and they were assured they did handle this right. now they are saying they will consult outside agency to make sure their policies are correct. i call B.S. TVC plan: slander everyone else and also imply that they were approving TVC policy.

Sure, okay. I see how it might look that way from outside. I don’t believe that to be the case, though. It would go wholly against character I’ve witnessed first hand for years. Although, I admit, there’s always a first time for someone to mishandle something.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly.

First, “slow down” was not an appropriate and loving message to a victim here.

Second, you are suggesting they disciplined her for not “slowing down”? Is annulling a marriage to a pedophile a sin equal to the “sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans” that Paul finds worth of church discipline?

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

they have repeatedly shown their humility and willingness to walk through the mess of our lives with us. I’ve seen nothing in this situation that makes me feel differently.
Peace and grace. I’m out.

***PUKE**** interesting tho~ the kind of people that support Patriarchal Authoritarian churches are usually just like them

i thought you were peace and outa here, i will throw this at the door that you slam behind you

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action

translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing. WE ARE TRYING TO CARE FOR HER and she wont let us.
Is Jordans repentance leading him to work with LE FBI to turn in the producers of the pics he was watching? that is true humility and repentance which i think you know nothing of. the biggest offense in all of this is that you have the nerve to say you and your church are representing the Lord Jesus Christ in all this sin of yours

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Sure, okay. I see how it might look that way from outside. I don’t believe that to be the case, though. It would go wholly against character I’ve witnessed first hand for years. Although, I admit, there’s always a first time for someone to mishandle something.

If you’ve read Amy Smith’s blog you will see plenty of other stories of people who have been abused by the pastors/elders at The Village Church. What they did to Karen isn’t a *first time to mishandle something*. It’s a pervasive pattern.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Remove him from fellowship? Is he somehow less deserving of grace that you are? Admittedly that grace does not come at the expense of safety, but if both can be seen to, is it not the very mission of the body to reach

Translation: ALL pedos are welcome here! no true repentance or counseling needed, we will even screw your victims if they insult you

mirele wrote:

It took TVC three months to tell its covenant members that Jordan was a pedophile and about these arrangements. How come I have a LOT of doubt about how TVC is handling this?

That is right. They withheld that information from their pew peons until Karen went public. Wonder how long they would have protected HIS reputation because he said “I repent” if Karen had not gone public?

Funny how nobody ever heard of “Texas Truthsayer” before this.

Oh, and have you ever heard the term “Truth — WHOSE Truth(TM)?”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Regarding Texas Truthsayer:
Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?
In political campaigns from 40 years ago, a “Truth Squad” was a team of Party spinmeisters on staff who would attempt to dominate the media with Spin for their candidate, trying to pre-empt the news media exposure and pre-emptively discredit the other guy’s spinmiesters. They would also get on the other guy’s media to spread confusion and distrust among his supporters.

since it is obvious that TVC is not actually a church but instead a business based on the latest business models, i was wondering how much the fine gentleman from texas is getting paid today for his fine work 🙂

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

That, sir or madam, is a vile and wicked thing to say. Are you by chance one of the ELDERS? Because you certainly sound like them.

Gram3 wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

That, sir or madam, is a vile and wicked thing to say. Are you by chance one of the ELDERS? Because you certainly sound like them.

Oh no, Gram3, according to his own posts the other day he and his wife are attenders, not even members. That begs the question: Where does he get all of his information from because according to The Village Church it only went out to members!

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Not blaming anything on her emotion. Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly.

You contradict yourself which makes it appear that you do not actually believe one of the things you are so forcefully asserting. The second sentence is pure BS. They were no more concerned about her recovery than the man in the moon. Speaking of which they behaved like lunatics, and *that* is why things “went badly.” Talk about using the passive voice! The ELDERS created this entire stinking GooGoo cluster because they are arrogant fools who let themselves get carried away with their own importance.

i wouldnt even bother, except that other people who read here may not know what TVC has stated, in writing! Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Not blaming anything on her emotion. Only saying that I believe their intent was “slow down” and she took that as “stay married” and it all went badly

so here is my “UN-SPIN” response

Feb 11, 2015 4:26 PM
from: Matt Younger (myounger@thevillagechurch.net)
to: Karen Root
cc Richard Brindley; pastor steve hardin

“In addition, should you not immediately revoke the petition for annulment, we would sadly move forward and formally discipline you as a member of the church.”
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/she-speaks-village-church-protects.html?m=1

Hey Texas, if you guys want to lie you should try and remember your church put it in writing. Probably wont be doing that anymore, i shudder to think that they will be coercing people in person from now on so there is no way to challenge their open lies. Which does actually refer to what you called men of great charector. you need a raise, (hope your not doing all this pro-bono)

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

While no church is perfect, they have repeatedly shown their humility and willingness to walk through the mess of our lives with us. I’ve seen nothing in this situation that makes me feel differently.

Peace and grace. I’m out.

No church is perfect, so therefore we don’t need to acknowledge the blood all over the crime scene. The wallpaper and carpet is really a delightful color aside from that.

They have repeatedly shown non-humility if the word humility has any meaning. Conveniently, words take whatever meaning is necessary in PR and propaganda.

Somehow I doubt that you intend to leave. Sheesh, I think you guys are all the same guy with different screennames.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?

They call them “interns.” No, really. Then they send them out.

ditto

@ K.D.:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

reexamined their covenant and made apologies

An apology is not a confession and admission of wrongdoing. The church should confess its sin and seek forgiveness, making restitution as necessary. That’s my understanding of biblical teaching.

Dallasite wrote:

There are many issues with their non-apology which I’m sure will be brought up here on future posts.
I believe the reason that SNAP will be protesting is to bring attention to this matter to the people attending who have not heard about it. Since TVC has many new visitors each week and many members who don’t attend regularly, it is very possible many people do not know what has gone on and how badly TVC mishandled a predator in their midst.
The thing that is most upsetting is that they sent emails to members, and to Jordan Root’s home group specifically, telling them not to talk about his having to be brought back from Asia, telling them to not ask him why he was forced to return, and to “love on him” and to welcome him into their homes. They did not alert anyone about his confessed sin until three months after he returned and they were forced to because word had gotten out…if some people had not finally spoken up, would they ever have come clean?!
Maybe some people do not know how the Home Groups are handled at TVC. They are setup by physical region, not by “families with kids” or “empty-nesters” or anything like that. So JR could be in a home group with people with kids, in fact it’s very, very likely, don’t think because he was a young man without kids that the people in his home group would also not have kids. So he was still allowed to attend his home group for three months without the home group and the families in it being told he was a confessed pedophile! And they were in fact encouraged to pursue further contact with him in order to “love on him”. And many, many people who attend home groups are not MEMBERS of TVC, I know this for a FACT. So people who had not agree to sign their rights away to TVC via their unbiblical membership covenant could have had their children exposed to Jordan Root during the three months before TVC admitted JR’s specific sin.
How TVC handled Karen is horrible and an issue that needs to be addressed.
But the greater issue, and I think what Karen and SNAP are most concerned about, is that TVC handled a pedophile all wrong.
The mindset and beliefs that TVC has shown are the reason people don’t trust Christians, they don’t want to be a Christian when they see Christians who are so much more concerned with protecting the pedophile than they are with protecting innocent children.
When you are dealing with sexual predators and child abusers of any kind it is not the time to be more concerned with showing forgiveness and grace to the predator, (Who are going to lie to you, pretend to repent, etc. to continue to be in the easiest place to abuse kids), than you are with protecting kids.
You have one shot to protect the kids, one shot at not letting them be screwed up and damaged for the rest of their lives. To put Jordan first, and the children last, is disgusting. There is absolutely time for forgiveness and grace, after you have exhausted every possible effort to protect the kids first. If you aid and protect at pedophile you are helping them commit their crimes, you are helping them scar these kids for life, you are sinning!!!
TVC arrogantly fawned all over themselves and their cheap grace/forgiveness of Jordan, trying in their Christianese correspondences to act like this is the opportunity to show God’s mercy and that was paramount. It should be time to fall all over themselves to find the kids in the child pornography that Jordan watched and focus on healing them. If God forgives Jordan and he is truly repentant and saved then that will show itself in God’s time and in God’s way, on this side of heaven we have to protect our kids from evil and not sit by and do nothing – and explain our doing nothing by saying “God’s in control”.
I agree with Bonheoffer, when you do nothing about evil, you are complicit in it. On this side of heaven we are to fight it at every opportunity, first in ourselves but also, and always, in others when they are a threat to children!

I wish this was posted all over the web, including @Acts 29 network and TVC members sites.

We need less people willing to spin the truth and say they are “truthsayers” and more Christians willing to stand up as Jesus did and say “leave her alone” when so called churches persecute those who seek to serve their Lord Jesus Christ by actually exposing lies. Jordan Root, if you read this, please follow through on the recommendations SIM gave for professional counseling. If you are truly repentant I believe you will do the hard work, whether or not TVC eldership agrees with the process.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Spokeshole

In this whole miserable story I’ll remember that term. Also Karen’s courage and fortitude.

Bill M wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Spokeshole

In this whole miserable story I’ll remember that term. Also Karen’s courage and fortitude.

Not original to me. I first heard it on AM radio, from KFI’s afternoon drive-time guys.

BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

sam wrote:

translation: she is an emotional woman who has distorted this whole thing.

Aren’t you surprised he didn’t manage to label her “unstable” as well? That’s another common one.

The Victorian term is “Hysteria”, of which the cure-all was forced Hysterectomy.

@ Melissa:
I didn’t want to feed the creature from under the bridge but the statement you responded to reminds me of my last meeting with “leadership” at my former church.

For each and every agreed course of action the pastor pursued a minimalistic approach to building trust. Instead of going above and beyond it was always massively short, more the response that builds suspicion rather than trust. Not even trying to meet the barest essentials of what is reasonable.

The last response I remember was “there is no pleasing you”. So my concerns were easily dismissed, move along, it was just my character flaw. Half the congregation left within the year, all probably just flawed people.

On a side-note- a friend of mine started this site. Some of you might like what she’s doing: http://translationsbyellie.com/index.php/category/translation/

for victims sakes i would like to repost this if its ok:

“… Daycare in Cedarville, OH (Period of time between 2004 and 2007)

…substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years Cedarville, OH,

Dallas Theological Seminary/Dallas

Now, take a look his activities involving children during this period of time.
• Summer Camp at First Baptist Dallas, Dallas, TX (May-August 2008)
• Dolfin Swim School, Dallas, TX (September 2008-July 2010)
• In Class Learning Differences Aid, Dallas, TX (September-December 2010)
• ​ Practicum Counselor at Dallas Life, Dallas, TX (worked with families and children; January-August 2011)
• Private Children’s Swim Instructor, Dallas, TX (June-September 2011)
• Mental Health Technician at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (November 2011-March 2012)
• Therapist on the Child and Adolescent Unit at Timberlawn Mental Health Services, Dallas, TX (March 2012-May 2014)
• A substantial amount of paid babysitting over these years in Albany, NY, Cedarville, OH, and Dallas, TX

Unpaid:
• Informal Children’s Ministry to Refugee Children in Vickery Meadows, Dallas, TX (2008-2011)
• Lived in Santa Fe Trails Apartment Complex, Dallas, TX; spent a lot of time alone with children (2008-2012)
• Volunteered in children’s and youth ministries at various churches in Dallas, TX
• A substantial amount of unpaid babysitting over these years in Dallas, TX
• He enrolls in DTS with the intent to get a counseling degree with a specialty in children.

Manipulation of thought observed in hindsight

Karen makes an important observation about his work with children. He was confronted about spending time alone with children and, on one occasion, was told by an adult that she was uncomfortable with the way he was sitting with and touching a child. He acted shocked and remorseful that his behavior would come off that way. He often would speak out against stereotyping by gender. He believed that people were biased against men spending time with children.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/25/part-1-jordan-root-is-a-confessed-internet-child-sex-abuser-should-the-village-church-trust-him/

@ Burwell Stark:
The child pornography issue is a sufficient basis to call him a sex offender. People who view child pornography on their computers are chargeable as sex offenders under the law.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.

IMO, Wade Burleson had it right in both his articles. TVC needed to apologize and acknowledge Karen’s resignation of membership and we need to forgive in light of that apology and monitor the situation from here. We will find out in the coming weeks whether TVC is another SGM or Mars Hill. Accept their apology. Trust but verify. Other stories will come out if they are there. Some may be flimsy, others may have substance. Monitor, monitor, monitor. That’s what a good watchblog can do. Parsing apologies endlessly, negatively broad-brushing whole segments of Christendom, speculative psychoanalysis of key parties or debating motives is counterproductive at best and damages one’s credibility at worst.

There has to be a way of being civil toward each other which does not whitewash truth. Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

“What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists, is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.” -RFK

The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

Eagle wrote:

@ Texas Truthsayer:

No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.

TT by his own posts here the other day is only an attender with his wife at The Village Church. So that begs the question: How did he get all of his information about Karen since The Village Church insists their policy is to ONLY send it out to members and NOT attenders?

js wrote:

Accept their apology.

I’m interested in doing this when they actually apologize for what they did, not how they phrased it.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

That was not an apology except for not succeeding in making Karen stay in her void marriage to Jordan. It constitutes another tort committed by the church against Karen, if read from a neutral point of view, as we attorneys are trained to do.

for the sake of another spin TVC is using about how they arent authoritative or patriarchal~ UNSPIN:
During this meeting there were some extremely troubling things said by both Richard and Matt. I was told that as Jordan’s wife, I would have a unique role in walking alongside him during this time. At one point, Matt Younger told me that 100 out of 100 times a couple is sitting on his couch, and one of them says “this is all his fault” and the other agrees, there is much more to the story. This stung, as it seemed that Matt was suggesting that I was partly responsible for Jordan’s fraud and perversion. I acknowledged to Matt that I knew I was not without sin in my marriage, but that I would not take responsibility for our return home and separation as it was caused by Jordan’s pedophilia and use of child pornography.

re last unspin for ‘its her fault too’ http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

TVC’s controlling is astounding, its the Acts 29 network model of the gospel

“I emailed Richard my proposed separation of finances (to be communicated with Jordan) the next day but did not hear back from him. I was finally able to speak with him on the phone Tuesday night, at which point I was told that the elders had decided that I was not to separate our finances after all, as that “felt too much like a step toward divorce” and they “could not approve any steps that would bring further separation to our marriage.” When I asked why the elders felt as though my choices about personal finances were within the scope of their authority, I was informed that “In a marriage separation, every aspect of your marriage is under the authority of the elders of the church.” That was a very eye-opening conversation for me. I was alarmed at the level of control the elders seemed to be attempting to exert over my life and decided to start asking questions.
I called Matt Younger the next day (January 21st) and told him what Richard had said. Matt affirmed that this was indeed the position of the elders.”
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

the TVC apology is not in my opinion based on any repentance from TVC but instead a response to true things like:
“There was never a mention of church discipline until after I had withdrawn my membership from the church. The Village Church does not have a legal right to discipline non-members, yet they have attempted to do so to me on multiple occasions.”
Jesus said woe to ye lawyers in the bible, maybe He was talking to TVC type lawyers.

js wrote:

Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

i expected TVC to lie and slander Karen, what i am looking into now though, is their arrogance that prompts them to slander other agencies also, agencies like SIM and G.R.A.C.E.
here is what i have so far re ‘he said she said’ about SIM.

He said(TVC et all) in their initial correspondence to members that they were working closely with SIM in this matter.
she said(Karen and Watchkeep):
“Notice that TVC avoids mentioning anything about the nature of Jordan’s sin. They also encourage people to reach out directly to Jordan without warning them of his pedophilic tendencies. This email went to many parents with children and was a major contention between TVC and SIM, who had been reminding The Village Church of their responsibility to inform people of the nature of Jordan’s confession since they released their report on February 9th. It is what prompted SIM to send their own communication on February 25th (https://www.scribd.com/doc/265890317/SIM-director-of-personnel-letter) informing the same group of people of the outcome of their investigation. After more than two weeks of receiving many complaints via phone and email, TVC finally informed Covenant Members of the Dallas Campus on March 13th.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

Another example is in regards to Jordan’s treatment. TVC dismissed recommendations from SIM that Jordan needed, at minimum, intensive therapy from someone who has experience working with these issues. I was told at one point that in-patient treatment had been recommended and that Jordan should attend a Sex Addicts Anonymous meeting every day until he began that treatment. Instead, TVC had Jordan see Eric Bryant, a member of The Village Church who is a part of North Texas Christian Counseling. On his bio, Eric does not list experience treating pedophilia or sexual addiction. Jordan went to counseling once a week for the first couple of months after his return, at which point Eric felt he was doing well enough to begin going only once every other week instead. I am unsure as to whether or how often Jordan is currently going to counseling.

js wrote:

Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

Please direct my attention to the part where they unequivocally repented for their false doctrine and their slander against Karen that resulted from that false doctrine. They have said nothing to warrant any faith that what they have said is anything more than PR damage control and risk management. This is how it looks when it’s done in the real world, and I don’t think men get holy just because they say they are Spiritual Authorities.

Most of us do not believe in hierachies in the Kingdom, nor do we believe that the Bible says anything about Spiritual Authorities other than we should not have them. The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

js wrote:

The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

That is deflection. The problem in this instance as well as Mars Hill and SGM is not extremism or polity or any such thing. It is men who have adopted a fundamentally anti-Christian worldview while claiming they represent Christ. Let’s talk about the matter at hand and the facts that we have.

Gram3 wrote:

js wrote:

The problem in our culture is not fundamentalism. The problem is extremism. And it is a problem which people of any political or theological persuasion can fall prey.

That is deflection. The problem in this instance as well as Mars Hill and SGM is not extremism or polity or any such thing. It is men who have adopted a fundamentally anti-Christian worldview while claiming they represent Christ. Let’s talk about the matter at hand and the facts that we have.

In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

js wrote:

I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

js wrote:

In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

In my view, Matt Chandler is a purveyor of an anti-Christian System, and I have more than outlined why it is anti-Christian. That does not necessarily mean that he is not gravely deceived while still being a believer. What it does mean is that if he is wise, he will listen to people outside the System and repent of his false teaching. He will demonstrate the fruit of repentance and of Christlikeness by teaching what is taught in the Bible rather than what the System says.

Burwell Stark wrote:

THAT state is one of the most liberal in the union, and he is a native; they investigated. They admitted that they found evidence that he molested those girls when they were underage but they chose not to prosecute. THEREFORE, he is walking free.

OK, this is off topic, but just because a state is “liberal” doesn’t mean they couldn’t prosecute. There may have been many other reasons why the state couldn’t prosecute, but “liberal” is not one of them. Remember, back in 2006, Arkansas (home of Josh Duggar) had a three year statute of limitations for child abuse. And nobody think Arkansas is “liberal.”

Gram3 wrote:

js wrote:

Can we find any common ground with believers in Christ who hold to positions with which we disagree? Are elders who support a signed covenant (with which I personally disagree) heretics worthy of being called unbelievers? Are elders who acknowledged that they put procedures over people worthy of forgiveness and the opportunity to walk a new path?

Please direct my attention to the part where they unequivocally repented for their false doctrine and their slander against Karen that resulted from that false doctrine. They have said nothing to warrant any faith that what they have said is anything more than PR damage control and risk management. This is how it looks when it’s done in the real world, and I don’t think men get holy just because they say they are Spiritual Authorities.

Most of us do not believe in hierachies in the Kingdom, nor do we believe that the Bible says anything about Spiritual Authorities other than we should not have them. The Village ELDERS are in violation of Jesus’ explicit instructions, and they have set themselves up as lords over God’s flock. When they repent of that, then I might consider them trustworthy.

Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers? Is holding to their doctrine worthy of damnation? If you believe so, then I see somewhat where you are coming from. If not, then I don’t see how you can expect them to change their doctrine when they see it as in line with biblical teaching. I take their words as a legitimate apology to Karen, although I acknowledge that many here do not, that is a difference of opinion and Karen’s opinion really is the one that matters there anyway.

Lydia wrote:

I think JS wants cheap grace for the spiritual abusers.

JS likes being at the top of the pyramid.

Lydia wrote:

Michaela wrote:

js wrote:

I don’t want TWW to be the flip side of a coin that has Pulpit and Pen on the other side.

You cannot be serious. You are comparing the people at TWW to the clowns at P&P?

Yes, IMO there is a comparison to be made. That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.

Did you miss the part where Matt Chandler & Company disciplined Karen after she left their church and before some 6000 members?

I think JS wants cheap grace for the spiritual abusers.

No cheap grace here, which is evident in my first post a little while ago. Monitor, trust but verify. Just hesitant to live without grace. Wade Burleson had it right, IMO, that’s all I was saying.

js wrote:

Are these elders then heretics, in other words, unbelievers? Is holding to their doctrine worthy of damnation?

Was Arius a heretic? You really do want to make this about me and not the ELDERS who created this, don’t you?

@ Lydia:

Thank you for your comment. I have two replies:
1. My quote was written in with a narrow scope – the legal definition of sex offender. Viewing it in any other light is taking it out of context.

2. Please go back and read all of my comments over the past week. If I have appeared blase about child sex abuse, then I am horribly misrepresenting myself. Furthermore, I believe I made it clear the other day that Root’s act of viewing child pornography is actively contributing to the sexual exploitation, slavery and abuse of children around the world. In my opinion, he is culpable for everything done to those children, whether he is the one who physically abuse/raped/tortured them or not.

Lastly, I believe he deserves grace and forgiveness, but that is not synonymous with overlooking the severity of his offenses and assisting those who have been abused by him. Nor does grace and forgiveness mean he should not be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

js wrote:

In your view is Matt Chandler a Christian?

no one knows that but Matt Chandler and Jesus. i was expecting someone to go for the ‘your calling him unsaved’ retort. i under normal circumstances wouldnt even bother replying, but now that you mentioned it….

Matt Chandler has never said he asked Jesus into his heart or was born again or filled with the Holy Spirit, didnt mention repenting of his sins, or asking Jesus to forgive them. perhaps he has said such things since, but in his autobiography he mentions none of that but instead his conversion (according to him): (i only wrote down the highlights of this video):

“father pagan in every definition of the word
father very abusive mother dismissive
mom’s great rebellion was my dad (marrying him, she had baptist preacher dad)
born into that world
mom steadfast in faith, refused to leave my dad, probably should have, there was a lot of abuse in our home, probably every kind of abuse you could imagine…
mom’s steadfast faith, which I did not like, because it kept me in the house with this man, I don’t know how else to say it.
in high school guy shared the gospel with me.
church to me was comical, mocks ‘I got joy in my heart’.
guy preaches gospel, desperately wanting dad to love him but cant get there, angry, left.
sitting outside eyes of my heart were enlightened.. almost immediately there was a, I dunno, shared gospel with people
I am a believer didn’t know where to go. went to 1st baptist, started seeing little holes, wanted to see my dad saved. what am I asking god to do if its up to my dad, I know his choice.
so I start going to church youth choir, council, didn’t want to go to school so went to jr college. job at pine dr christian as janitor. change of ballast. …here I am janitor, mopping floors, dr gets to know me, has accident goes to hosp, asks matt to share his testimony. go share test guy comes up after says , how would you like to be the youth pastor? didn’t know tradition, history, how people worked…did not have sight to see that that silly thing had life changing effect on people, wounded ppls souls. I needed to go, before fired I went away to school. baptist school, in west texas. liberal bent. there I started teaching little bible study…thought of going into law.. grace bible study, teaching every week, taking bible classes to learn what to teach. grew from couple hundred to couple thousand. 20yr old softmore teaching. sitting in class saying that’s not right.”

from:
matt chandler autobiography
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qPyy2ycffY&index=4&list=PLu0d0UoIlnx-6b4xR8gbguejFlDSD3lNq

@ mirele:

You are correct, no one would think of AR as liberal. However, it is material to this specific case. Since the male in question was a “native” of that state (that’s the only clue I am willing to give) and since they have a liberal view of many laws, he was not prosecuted.

By “liberal” I mean permissive, not on the political left.

Covenant Members of Practical Takeaways Baptist Church https://m.facebook.com/notes/jeff-breakfast/break-bread-not-covenants/1082252651802699

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Ever heard of a “Truth Squad”?

Or the hasbara of today?

In the message from the Village elders to the members:

Sometimes dark and difficult situations cause us to take a magnifying glass and look through the lens to see deeper than we normally can.

How about just taking the blinders off?

Regarding Covenant Membership, we have not changed our theological or philosophical convictions on our Membership Covenant, member care and church discipline

This is the root from which the offenses arise, i.e. the oppression will continue.

Michaela wrote:

Eagle wrote:
@ Texas Truthsayer:
No offense TT but for all this to happen in such a short amount of time…I have a hard time believing you. TVC apology came out less than 20 hours ago, and to think they have made progress and done everything quickly…well there hasn’t been enough time.
TT by his own posts here the other day is only an attender with his wife at The Village Church. So that begs the question: How did he get all of his information about Karen since The Village Church insists their policy is to ONLY send it out to members and NOT attenders?

I got it the same way you did…various links to all the emails that have been made public by blogs…including links on this very site. It was not sent to me. I read about it after the fact because a friend in Chicago posted a reply to an article like this one on Facebook. Just to clarify.

roebuck wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Peace and grace. I’m out.
Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.

Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

Gram3 wrote:

js wrote:

Just hesitant to live without grace.

Where did the ELDERS demonstrate this grace toward Karen or the other women they dehumanize and the children they put at risk and the parents they kept in the dark at The Village? How many others have these ELDERS pushed under their care while they usurped the Holy Spirit and demeaned the Son of God so that they can be rulers over God’s people?

Did you speak so forcefully about grace then? What does grace mean to you?

Grace means in Jesus I have a Savior who lived a perfect life and died in my place and rose again so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.

I believe Karen needs grace. She needs the apology of elders who sinned against her. She needs to go on in her life with God in freedom and find healing in a supportive church. Jordan Root needs grace, even as he should also face the full weight of whatever the law might deem right. He has done despicable things but is not beyond the reach of grace. Time will tell. I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

Bill M wrote:

the oppression will continue.

…until the pewpeon attitudes improve and they thank us for our love and care.

js wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
js wrote:
Just hesitant to live without grace.
Where did the ELDERS demonstrate this grace toward Karen or the other women they dehumanize and the children they put at risk and the parents they kept in the dark at The Village? How many others have these ELDERS pushed under their care while they usurped the Holy Spirit and demeaned the Son of God so that they can be rulers over God’s people?
Did you speak so forcefully about grace then? What does grace mean to you?
Grace means in Jesus I have a Savior who lived a perfect life and died in my place and rose again so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.
I believe Karen needs grace. She needs the apology of elders who sinned against her. She needs to go on in her life with God in freedom and find healing in a supportive church. Jordan Root needs grace, even as he should also face the full weight of whatever the law might deem right. He has done despicable things but is not beyond the reach of grace. Time will tell. I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

I agree with all of that. Thank you. And I would also agree that Jordan needs extensive counseling from a psychiatrist with a background in that sort of evil. I just don’t think that excludes him from the Church so long as protections are in place and he submits to them. The second he tries (and he might for all I know) to convince anyone that he’s better and doesn’t need restriction is the second he needs to go.

pcapastor wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

roebuck wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Peace and grace. I’m out.
Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.

Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.

Nicely said.

The elders at TVC have reacted, and spoken out in their emails/letters to their members, in a way that boggles my mind. They were so quick to say – don’t be in a rush to judge Jordan, protect his reputation, he’s okay to attend mixed services as long as he’s not directly in children’s ministry – which is such an arrogant, foolish and PUBLIC stance – emails to 6000 people is PUBLIC. So blasé, to them protecting the kids in the mixed services and home groups was always secondary to what they saw as Jordan’s best interests, or really their best interests because they thought keeping things secret would protect their reputation. They considered their man-made covenants more important than Karen’s conscience before God, they believe they have an authority over her which supersedes Christ’s authority (Christ is who Karen will and should answer too, not TVC), and the Holy Spirit’s (they wanted Karen to go against her conscience and heart), which is not surprising given their upside down approach to dealing with a pedophile.

What I find so mind-boggling is that TVC Elders have specifically addressed topics like alcoholism with home group leaders, telling them that they need to be aware of people’s struggles and particular sins not only to help those people but to protect them from falling back into such-or-such sin and to prevent them from sinning against others….so they’re concerned about other people in home groups drinking in front of an alcoholic, exposing an alcoholic to a temptation to sin… but until Karen spoke up they were okay with Jordan attending a mixed home group!??! And he is still allowed to attend mixed services?!? He’s addicted to images of children, TVC has no right to allow him to ever be in the same room with a child, they should separate him into a men’s only meeting.

I personally know of other churches in Dallas that do outreach with men who have been in and out of prison, some for sexual crimes or child abuse, and the conditions are that they can only attend services with other men, they cannot be in services or home groups or Bible studies with the objects that lead them into temptation and sin.

Unfortunately have encountered the TVC mindset in others, I personally know Christians who get all up in arms and confrontational with someone who has an alcohol problem or a problem with ADULT sexual immorality, because they believe that it is the duty, (and a sign of repentance), of the person with those sins to not place themselves in situations that EVEN SEEM inappropriate or unseemly for them to be in, lest they sin or even appear to sin and besmirch the name of Christ. They quickly segregate such people into suspicious people who need to be watched…and judged.
And yet, these same Christians, are seemingly the first to say – “Judge not lest ye be judged…cast not the first stone…take the log out of your eye first… or my favorite – “you’re not being Christ-like and you are so UN-forgiving to be suspicious of such-and-such person” when we’re talking about a person with a CONFIRMED HISTORY of child abuse!
What is that???? That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
Your opinions, your PUBLIC and private stands, need to be informed by the Bible, not man-made covenants, and they have to also be considering that what they are doing reflects on Christ and His cause. Are they pushing people to Christ or away from Christ?
TVC is punishing victims, unconcerned with the most helpless and innocent victims of Jordan’s crimes, and protecting and empowering an evil man.
If Jordan was repentant he would be working with the FBI and show them every single site he visited, every person he communicated with or shared Pornography with, and it should be his mission to help/fund the finding and saving of the children who are being raped and terrorized in all the videos and pictures that he loved looking at so much. God have mercy on the souls of all involved.

js wrote:

I believe TVC elders need grace. They have failed deeply and need to know that they can be forgiven. The rightful outcry against their actions has caused some adjustment of course, time will tell how much. These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

They proved they were never qualified in the first place. What part of that do you not get?

What they need to do is go away and meet the real Jesus Christ. They have made a god in their own image. One that loves hierarchy, power and a caste system religion.

js wrote:

There has to be a way of being civil toward each other which does not whitewash truth. Niceness is not a fruit of the Spirit, but kindness is . . . and patience, and love.

Here’s one thing that I firmly believe is missing today that is sorely needed. Some times you have two camps at opposite ends yelling at each other or writing each other off. There needs to be communication between the two that will allow information to be candidly exchanged. That is missing today and it is sorely, needed. This is part of the reason why I have no problem meeting people on all sides of the issue and meeting people and getting to know them even if I disagree. Its better to know and listen to them person to person.

js wrote:

These leaders need to know that they can move forward, repentant and chastened, and be better leaders in the future.

I agree that the ELDERS need grace, but that grace for now needs to look a lot like the grace that Jesus extended to the scribes and Pharisees. Most of them did not take what he said to heart because they knew better, and who was this uncouth Galillean to tell them anything? Some of the scribes and Pharisees did receive his grace and followed him by faith. Others plotted with the imperial Authorities to execute him. See, grace is not saying everything is OK. Grace is telling hard truth to people when they need to hear it. Some will listen, and others will harden their hearts and double down.

One thing is certain. Until they destroy the rotten tree, there will be more rotten fruit. They need to reflect on the Mars Hill example and ask if they want to be the next ones to create so much pain and destruction. So far, it looks like defensive damage control.

js wrote:

” so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.” .
you are following your own particular view of the bible and following Jesus, which no doubt you have been taught at a religious institution and not by Jesus Himself. did you know that Jesus told a group of people that believed in Him that they were of their father the devil?
John 8:31-50
you cannot seem to see what people here mean by the comment ‘cheap grace’ because you appear to be following a set of principals instead of the Living God

Bill M wrote:

BillM’s law?

Nah, hasn’t quite got the right syllogic cadence to it, sorry. Like your idea though.

sam wrote:

Matt is just another casualty of a sinful system.

In the Chandler post I ran across last night “the system” at TVC had yet to be setup. He oversaw the installation of the oppressive membership covenant in a church that did not have one before he came.

Chandler’s post on justifying membership was mostly about submit, obey, and discipline. Chandler owns this mess.

Dallasite wrote:

The elders at TVC have reacted, and spoken out in their emails/letters to their members, in a way that boggles my mind. They were so quick to say – don’t be in a rush to judge Jordan, protect his reputation, he’s okay to attend mixed services as long as he’s not directly in children’s ministry – which is such an arrogant, foolish and PUBLIC stance – emails to 6000 people is PUBLIC. So blasé, to them protecting the kids in the mixed services and home groups was always secondary to what they saw as Jordan’s best interests, or really their best interests because they thought keeping things secret would protect their reputation. They considered their man-made covenants more important than Karen’s conscience before God, they believe they have an authority over her which supersedes Christ’s authority (Christ is who Karen will and should answer too, not TVC), and the Holy Spirit’s (they wanted Karen to go against her conscience and heart), which is not surprising given their upside down approach to dealing with a pedophile.

What I find so mind-boggling is that TVC Elders have specifically addressed topics like alcoholism with home group leaders, telling them that they need to be aware of people’s struggles and particular sins not only to help those people but to protect them from falling back into such-or-such sin and to prevent them from sinning against others….so they’re concerned about other people in home groups drinking in front of an alcoholic, exposing an alcoholic to a temptation to sin… but until Karen spoke up they were okay with Jordan attending a mixed home group!??! And he is still allowed to attend mixed services?!? He’s addicted to images of children, TVC has no right to allow him to ever be in the same room with a child, they should separate him into a men’s only meeting.

I personally know of other churches in Dallas that do outreach with men who have been in and out of prison, some for sexual crimes or child abuse, and the conditions are that they can only attend services with other men, they cannot be in services or home groups or Bible studies with the objects that lead them into temptation and sin.

Unfortunately have encountered the TVC mindset in others, I personally know Christians who get all up in arms and confrontational with someone who has an alcohol problem or a problem with ADULT sexual immorality, because they believe that it is the duty, (and a sign of repentance), of the person with those sins to not place themselves in situations that EVEN SEEM inappropriate or unseemly for them to be in, lest they sin or even appear to sin and besmirch the name of Christ. They quickly segregate such people into suspicious people who need to be watched…and judged.
And yet, these same Christians, are seemingly the first to say – “Judge not lest ye be judged…cast not the first stone…take the log out of your eye first… or my favorite – “you’re not being Christ-like and you are so UN-forgiving to be suspicious of such-and-such person” when we’re talking about a person with a CONFIRMED HISTORY of child abuse!
What is that???? That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
Your opinions, your PUBLIC and private stands, need to be informed by the Bible, not man-made covenants, and they have to also be considering that what they are doing reflects on Christ and His cause. Are they pushing people to Christ or away from Christ?
TVC is punishing victims, unconcerned with the most helpless and innocent victims of Jordan’s crimes, and protecting and empowering an evil man.
If Jordan was repentant he would be working with the FBI and show them every single site he visited, every person he communicated with or shared Pornography with, and it should be his mission to help/fund the finding and saving of the children who are being raped and terrorized in all the videos and pictures that he loved looking at so much. God have mercy on the souls of all involved.

^^^^ THIS.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

I think that is what we’ve been trying to say. I just don’t think we agree on the nature of grace or law or gospel. Victims get man-made laws while perpetrators get grace. Victims get excluded and cast outside the camp while perpetrators get embraced within the camp.

This is seriously twisted and warped, IMO, and looks nothing like what is actually in the Bible. Karen is a sinner against the System, so she must be punished. Jordan is a supporter of the System, so he must be embraced and forgiven and let’s MoveOn. How does this look remotely like Jesus and his Kingdom where he is the only ruler?

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

So we should only show grace to those who show grace. Got it. Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.

Another non-sequitur, does not follow. And there is that word again, Gospel, capitalized like it is a member of the trinity.

Haitch wrote:

That Jordan lived in east Asia makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Indonesia comes to mind, Bali in particular. Not that I know where they served. Sex trafficking, slavery, child porn and child prostitution is huge there.

Amy Smith wrote:

Covenant Members of Practical Takeaways Baptist Church https://m.facebook.com/notes/jeff-breakfast/break-bread-not-covenants/1082252651802699

I’d attend pastor Jeff Breakfast’s church. Maybe even become a covenant member. If only I knew where his peeps worshipped.

Bill M wrote:

Chandler owns this mess.

Yes, but he should share the credit for the mess with Dever, Grudem, Piper, and the rest of the YRR Usual Suspects who teach the same thing. He drew the crowds, and they provided the product. Everybody gets a cut of the action.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Dallasite wrote:

That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.

I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

This is a good commentary. Christians let down there guard in their tribe, or groups. Because it’s a church, it must be safe. Christians should be just as much on guard and not think their environment is any safer because people claim Christ (perhaps they do, perhaps they don’t).

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people.

I saw this in high school but didn’t think it would keep on keeping on.

Bill M wrote:

In the Chandler post I ran across last night “the system” at TVC had yet to be setup. He oversaw the installation of the oppressive membership covenant in a church that did not have one before he came.
Chandler’s post on justifying membership was mostly about submit, obey, and discipline. Chandler owns this mess.

ahhh, thank you

Bill M wrote:

Similar to Godwin’s law that proposes there is a 100% chance for for internet discussions to degenerate into Hitler analogies, is there a similar law for christian blogs to eventually question someones salvation? If not, can I claim it? BillM’s law?

Or…maybe it could be expressed as ‘Bill-Ems Law’ or widen it to ‘Bill’s Christian Conundrum’ when terms like ‘bitter’, ‘grace’ and ‘authority’ surface. I suggest the TLA (three letter acronym) trope of DGS or ‘downward gospelly spiral’.
PS there has been some great Christian linguistic exchanges over the last week, I mean to keep a record.

You know, TT, a big problem here that you just don’t seem to be getting in your talk of “heat in the room” and such is that many people get a mite touchy about child sexual abuse. And they get more than a mite touchy when they find out about a church that disciplines and then sets out to publicly humiliate a woman who was a victim of child sexual abuse (yes, wives are victims and yes, viewing child porn supports child sex abuse) when she tried to extricate herself from the abuser.

We get a mite touchy. The three women to whom I am the closest in the whole wide world were all victims of it. It has left some absolutely indelible marks on their lives, and they are not the only victims, it affects those who love them.

When I ponder all this in light of what I know to be the truth about child sex abuse, when I look at the way that Chandler and company treated this woman who was herself a victim, when I look at how they only apologized AFTER the whole thing blew up, when I consider the nature of that apology (were I ever to apologize such as that to my family when I’d done them wrong, they’d shout me down and laugh me out of the room and tell me to come back when I had a tiny smidge of contrition), I am stunned.

When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt and then I consider what Jesus said of such harming of little ones, that “It would be better” for such a person to have a “millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea”, I just shake my head. I wonder what Jesus it is you reference.

sam wrote:

js wrote:

” so that I and all who believe can be forgiven of our sins, reconciled to God, united with Christ, given the Holy Spirit, adopted into God’s family, given eternal life and increasingly conformed through the course of life into the likeness of Christ.” .
you are following your own particular view of the bible and following Jesus, which no doubt you have been taught at a religious institution and not by Jesus Himself. did you know that Jesus told a group of people that believed in Him that they were of their father the devil?
John 8:31-50
you cannot seem to see what people here mean by the comment ‘cheap grace’ because you appear to be following a set of principals instead of the Living God

That’s a huge assumption to make based on a couple of sentences. Jesus is my Savior, I love Him and He is real in my life.

And I am not telling anyone what they have to believe or that I am right. I am giving my opinion and I acknowledge that I could be wrong. My posts are a small part of this bigger discussion and that is that we who are Christians are in danger of forgetting the heart of our faith, grace, not only in what we believe and do but in how we regard other believers and how we interact with one another online. If what I’ve said is totally untrue of you, let it roll. If there is truth in it, consider it and adjust. What I am talking about is not nearly as serious as the larger TVC situation but how we interact with one another is important.

js wrote:

surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters?

Oh, I totally and freely acknowledge that my interest is in tearing down the System that is a strangler fig on the real Fig Tree. It is a false gospel that has become popular and profitable.

Yes, I am definitely interested in cutting it down, digging it out, and burning the pieces so that new life can spring out of the ground that has been consumed by this.

Bill M wrote:

After Tweetie Pie was visiting here I thought of changing to Sylvester, would that work better? Sylvester’s law?

very good, its what sylvester says after granma shoos him away when he tries to eat tweetie bird over and over and over again

Bill M wrote:

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people.
+++++++++
I saw this in high school but didn’t think it would keep on keeping on.

I can’t remember who said it, Nicole Kidman or someone similar, but she felt we didn’t evolve much after school, it’s just the same old, same old – that these groups and our ways of interacting continue into adulthood. I have found this quote useful, if not depressing, at times.

Haitch wrote:

sam wrote:

They keep saying that the roots were not employed by them but actually they have been employers of the Roots, they didnt pay their whole salary but they paid part in agreement with SIMs oh the labor laws of the US that they have broken!

This is really interesting. From my reading of the sex & other abuse that occurred in ‘developing countries’ under New Tribes/ABWE etc, the missionaries who perpetuated it were outside of US law and unable to be prosecuted.Michaela wrote:

1. Jordan Root was a missionary and that group was supported by The Village Church.

Michaela also mentions the ‘ICE’ taskforce and legislation. I wonder how many successful prosecutions they have overseen? That Jordan lived in east Asia makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

ICE has been involved in quite a few successful prosecutions of US citizens who committed sex crimes against children overseas. It is unlawful for US citizens to do that anywhere in the world and they can be criminally prosecuted for it here.

From the US Immigration And Customs Enforcement (I.C.E.) website, a division of the US Department for Homeland Security
Predators Face Severe Penalties
Several laws increase the probability that sexual predators who harm children will suffer severe consequences, including the Mann Act, the 1994 Child Sexual Abuse Prevention Act, the 2003 Protect Act and the 2006 Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act. Federal law bars U.S. residents from engaging in sexual or pornographic activities anywhere in the world with a child under 18. ICE works with law enforcement agencies and advocacy groups around the globe to investigate crimes of this nature. Those convicted in the United States face significant penalties:
• Up to 30 years in prison for possession, manufacture, distribution of child pornography
• Up to 30 years in prison for traveling child sex offender, facilitator of sex with children, or a participant in these crimes
• Up to a life sentence for sex trafficking children for prostitution

Bill M wrote:

Sylvester’s law?

How about Puddy Tat’s rule? Cats are popular, apparently. They are definitely not saved.

Gram3 wrote:

They are definitely not saved.

I tell my kids that cats are from the fall. :o)

Lydia wrote:

Don;t be so easily taken in. If you can’t run over to your pastors house to borrow his lawnmower at moments notice, don’t tell me you know him.

Amen. That’s the truth. But probably lost on the worshiper of celebrity. Perhaps TT will ponder it.

pcapastor wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
pcapastor wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
roebuck wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Peace and grace. I’m out.
Of course you are, because you are a hit and run troll, and know nothing of peace and grace, nor the issue at hand.
Or I was late to pick up my kid from school and could no longer respond. And I do want peace and grace. For all involved, you and me, TVC, Karen, Jordan…everyone.
Interacted with you a bit on another thread yesterday/last night, but now I don’t know if you are even a real person or a composite. Dee and Deb know who I am (i.e. I am a real person, really a PCA pastor, we have really exchanged emails, etc.) — until one of them or the “guy behind the curtain” can verify for the rest of us that you are a real human being (i.e. really married to a Catholic, really been attending TVC for three years, really considering moving closer to the Flower Mound campus prior to really becoming a member, really the father of two girls, and all the other personal details you have dropped), I, for one, have no intention of interacting with you further.
If there’s a way to speak with you privately, I am happy to. My Facebook and Twitter profiles are public and I’d be happy to share that with you. I just felt it best, considering the “heat of the room” to be cautious in a “room” full of strangers.
Fair enough. If you contact Dee and/or Deb (click on the “contacting us” tab at the top of this page) via email, they can forward your email to me.

Done and done. Thanks, Texas Truthsayer. I’ve checked out your twitter and Facebook pages and you are indeed who you have represented yourself to be on this blog. Thanks for that!

@ Lydia:
Around the Wartburg Castle, Pugs Rule and Cats Drool.

Cats are also rebellious liberal feminists who refuse to take orders. They want to usurp all authority, and they usually succeed.

Lydia wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Says the arbiter of all truth? You understand that not everyone agrees with you, right? And that, in no way, makes them wrong. I’ve seen more Jesus in Matt Chandler than in any Presbyterian, Methodist or Baptist minister I have ever known. I understand that doesn’t matter to you, but it does to me. That said, I fully understand is as sinful and flawed and wicked as you or I.
What I try to do is make arguments about truth. But I do think there is a right and wrong. And that is what we are trying to point out there. Gram3 makes the distinction very well in this comment:
Gram3 wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Your Gospel is, apparently, different than mine.
I think that is what we’ve been trying to say. I just don’t think we agree on the nature of grace or law or gospel. Victims get man-made laws while perpetrators get grace. Victims get excluded and cast outside the camp while perpetrators get embraced within the camp.
This is seriously twisted and warped, IMO, and looks nothing like what is actually in the Bible. Karen is a sinner against the System, so she must be punished. Jordan is a supporter of the System, so he must be embraced and forgiven and let’s MoveOn. How does this look remotely like Jesus and his Kingdom where he is the only ruler?
When people tell me they have seen more Jesus in such or such guru, I have to chuckle. I was around the celebrity guru world in seeker megas for years. Mosst folks who say that have not spent much time at all with their favorite Jesus like guru. And chances are good they never will. There is an inner ring people never pentetrate. These guys are extremely insulated in a bubble which shows when these sorts of things happen. I do understand the mentality of folks who get 2 min with the great one and come away thinking he is the most wonderful man in the world. To make oneself a minor Christian celeb and hone those stage skills is an art and the task is in constant image management that presents whatever shitck they have devised whether it is charisma, passion or humility. I know, I worked backstage in that world.
Now if you had said, I see more Jesus in Matt’s stage persona than any other cult of personality, then I could probably understand that better.
Don;t be so easily taken in. If you can’t run over to your pastors house to borrow his lawnmower at moments notice, don’t tell me you know him.

I live 45 minutes away from Flower Mound, so borrowing a mower would not really be worth the drive. And while I do not know him in the sort of way you suggest, I know people who ARE that familiar with him…and I know that he’s taken people into his home and let them stay because his daughter felt for this woman and thought she and Lauren could make an impact. In no way do I think he’s perfect or without flaw…just that I have 3 years of experiencing humility and confession. I’ve watched him end the membership of men who left wives for younger models, etc.

I used to work in a large church in Indiana…and spend 15 years after that avoiding church altogether. I knew too much. I had seen behind the curtain. I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work. If you believe it is, I encourage you to embed yourself in the Flower Mound campus and put your investigative skills to use. If you find something tangible that I have not, I’d not be so quick to defend. Also, lest anyone get the wrong idea, I was not a “good” staff member in a bad church all those years ago…I was another sinful staff member (back then, in Indiana) that didn’t expect in my naïveté that everyone else was as flawed as myself. And once I got to feeling good about how much better I was handling myself, pride caused a great fall (got my girlfriend pregnant) and I dealt with hypocrisy and my own failings. I’ve seen and BEEN the good, bad and ugly. I’m only saying I haven’t seen it at TVC in any of my experiences. If that changes, I would willingly admit it. And maybe with time, I will see that. My only point is that I haven’t known that to be the case in my 3 years attending.

@ Gram3:

Ha!

I have an embroidered pillow someone gave me that says, “I just want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am”.

Can’t say that about a cat! Besides, I am deathly allergic to them.

Lydia wrote:

@ Gram3:
Ha!
I have an embroidered pillow someone gave me that says, “I just want to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am”.
Can’t say that about a cat! Besides, I am deathly allergic to them.

As am I, much to my children’s chagrin. They want a kitty so badly. Daddy needs to breathe. 🙂

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Dallasite wrote:

That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

This is actually a very powerful statement AB. I agree. I’m about to segue here. And if the ‘Church’ was less worried about this and ‘let the light shine in’ it might expose the abuse of power earlier, and hamper an active paedophile within the church. Paedophiles go where there are children. So they’re in the teaching profession, in Scouts, in the YMCA, and in church. etc. And they don’t all look like Jimmy Saville. Last week I corrected a friend who said of the Catholic Church, ‘if only they would let the priests marry’ (it is frequent topic of conversation because of the ongoing Royal Commission here). I said I don’t believe it would have made much difference, and that the problem was probably worse in the Protestant churches. It’s not just in the church however, it was anywhere children congregated – the homes for delinquents, for orphans, sporting organisations, etc. They seem to get a bit more of a free pass in churches though, because of the naivete of Christians about the psychopathology of paedophiles, and the ‘love everybody’ and ‘forgiveness’ and ‘Jesus will turn your life around’ factors.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.

If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

Law Prof wrote:

Albuquerque Blue wrote:
@ Gram3:
As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.

Dog man myself. Cats are fine – they just don’t belong among (otherwise) civilized people. 😉 🙂

roebuck wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
@ Gram3:
As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^
Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.
Dog man myself. Cats are fine – they just don’t belong among (otherwise) civilized people.

OK, just crossed you off my list. We’re having a schism here over cats-dogs. Time to forma new denomination.

Law Prof wrote:

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

@ Gram3:
As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

Cat man myself. Dogs are vermin.

I forgive you.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

@ Gram3:
As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

How about if I tell you that my cat think is mostly real allergy. Can we still be friends? Love the puptriarchy. 🙂

dee wrote:

@ Texas Truthsayer:
But he also disciplined a young woman who had been through hell. Chandler is leaning towards harsh discipline and that concerns me.

Actually, I believe it was Matt Younger that brought up the discipline angle…according to the covenant. Chandler, while the lead teaching pastor, is not in charge of the Dallas Campus but rather an Elder in the TVC body as a whole. I’d not be surprised to find that some uncomfortable conversations are taking place between the elders and the Dallas campus pastors. And, hopefully, now that they are addressing the language and intent of the covenant, they will prevent anything from coming before the grace and mercy they need to extend the person involved. With a staff that large, it likely got out of hand before too many other campus were brought in to weigh on the matter. But I don’t claim to know that for a fact, so please don’t take that as such.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Law Prof wrote:
Texas Truthsayer wrote:
I am NOT unaware of “impenetrable rings” and other nonsense. I just haven’t seen it at work.
If these are not at work, then that is the least representative A29 church in the country.
That may, in fact, bet true. I am not familiar with A29 aside from (1) Chandler heading it and (2) them calling Driscoll to repent and step down. I also know that Matt moved the home office for A29 into the same shopping center area where the Flower Mound campus is located. What changes, if any, are being made within that organization, I am unequipped to speak about.

I am not a part of A29, so I cannot speak directly, but was a former elder in an A29-esque neocalvinist denomination that let people know, sometimes brutally, if they were moving to another place, that they would not be “leaving well” unless they went to a place like A29 (which was specifically mentioned by the pastor as acceptable). There is a certain strain (A29, SGM, NFI) that is virtually indistinguishable.

An Attorney wrote:

@ Texas Truthsayer:
She said she was told so by SIM. If her statement is false, SIM would be highly likely to challenge her on it. And not even TVC has challenged it. So I take their silence as consent to its truth, and that can be taken to a jury.

Hasn’t challenged it YET. This story is all still very fresh. I would imagine that there are things on all sides that are still unknown. If something like that were to come to light, I would certainly expect confession and repentance.

@ roebuck:

This line of discussion could getLaw Prof wrote:

OK, just crossed you off my list. We’re having a schism here over cats-dogs. Time to forma new denomination.

Yes, this makes the Calvinism/Arminianism schism seem like kindergarten.

Actually, I love cats, and my friends’ cats love me. I just can’t have cats here because

1) they kill birds

and

2) I will not do the litterbox thing

Lydia wrote:

don’t tell me you know him.

Thanks for pointing this out, to know the character of someone takes time. Short of that we are known either by our works, or mainly by our individual acts of love. The latter is not looking real good for TVC leadership right now, unless you use the construct love=care=control.

@ Texas Truthsayer:
You’re naive to think this one campus is the issue.

@ Gram3:
Weighing in on this very important subject. Allergic to cats, married to a dog person, so that puts me firmly in the DogFaith camp.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

They emulate their leaders. And besides, Chandler pretty much backed it up in the faux apology that was not an apology. CJ tried that deflection, too. Everything that has come out about TVC screams authoritarian. That is the culture of the leadership whether the pew sitters get it or not. Now that might be normal to you so you don’t see it.

Gram3 wrote:

IOW, I think that the ELDERS were playing t-ball and Karen had a much deeper and professional team behind her.

It makes all the difference which is why I long for people to get out of these authoritarian systems, stop with the bottle feeding brand formula and eat some meat.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

So waiting until the investigation was complete before making private business public is a bad thing?

The guy had already admitted to his wife that he looked at child abuse images online and had fondled kids when he was a kid. SIM was informed, then SIM told TVC.

What was there to investigate?

The minute a guy admits to his spouse he’s looking at pedo content, you don’t waste time making sure he has no access to children and maybe parents of any kids he was around previously are informed.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

You seem to buy into what ever you are told not being a covenant member. I doubt very seriously members have serious input into spending, voting line items or know how much all the leader/staff salaries are. These caste system churches don’t have that much respect for the pew sitters. They are built on the leaders knowing what is best for them.

Gram3 wrote:

Cats are popular, apparently. They are definitely not saved.

I’ve heard it said that all dogs go to heaven but I’m inclined to think puppies come from the other place. Yeah they’re cute, but oh my.

Lydia wrote:

@ Texas Truthsayer:
You seem to buy into what ever you are told not being a covenant member. I doubt very seriously members have serious input into spending, voting line items or know how much all the leader/staff salaries are. These caste system churches don’t have that much respect for the pew sitters. They are built on the leaders knowing what is best for them.

I’ve been in on the voting sessions…just didn’t have a vote to cast as I’m not a covenant member.

Law Prof wrote:

There is a certain strain (A29, SGM, NFI) that is virtually indistinguishable.

Jonathan Leeman is very disappointed that you left 9Marks out of the BoyzClub.

A good article on how to deal with pedophiles in the church: http://wineskins.org/2014/04/08/what-place-do-pedophiles-have-in-the-church/

An excerpt from it: “I believe that, while pedophiles can and should repent, the church is not in a position to welcome them into the assembly where children are present. In fact, we have written into our policy that any known sex offenders will be removed from regular worship and will be offered an alternative worship with a group of adults only.”

Bill M wrote:

so that puts me firmly in the DogFaith camp.

Yes, but do you follow strict or good faith subscription? When you answer that question, we will proceed to the next level where you may state any reservations or scruples that you have.

@ Texas Truthsayer:
Where do you stand on the issue of cats and dogs?

Daisy wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
It’s clear there is no way for them to find grace in your midst.
Are you concerned about any potential victims (young children exposed to Jordan) at that church and them receiving grace?
Are you concerned about that church showing Karen grace?

Of course. Which is why I believe they were right to confess and repent and right to put safeguards in place re: Jordan. I believe they INTENDED grace but their application (toward Karen) was hurtful and didn’t take into account the uniqueness of her situation.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I saw repentance and confession…although repentance is an ongoing work, so only time will truly tell. I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for you.

It’s not about me. And it’s not about being enough. Many feel it wasn’t anything of substance to begin with. Hollow. I’d be curious what Karen Hinkley thinks and feels. I’d also be curious as to how the others with TVC stories feel not having ever gotten a pseudo-apology.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader

Please. He is also on the speaking circuit, President of Acts 29 and so forth. People like having a celeb pastor. Oh yes, he is the leader. He is the face of TVC. It has been quite the launching pad for him, nationally.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for you.

I’m sorry it wasn’t enough, too.

Daisy wrote:

@ Texas Truthsayer:
I read the e-mails, even before Karen was asked for her thoughts, and I agree with her assessment.
Karen also didn’t seem emotional in her responses but very calm and level-headed, though had she been ranting or fuming, I’d not have automatically discounted her comments on that basis.

If my comments made anyone think I was claiming “hysterical woman”, I apologize. I DO NOT think that. I only meant that no one is thinking as clearly as they might think they are in that trauma. Now, she had other counsel. Nothing wrong with that. At all. I only meant that she was coming off feeling betrayed and duped (and possibly stupid, because victims tend to blame themselves a bit, unfortunately) and suddenly was hearing a different response than she was ready for. I would think defenses would go up for anyone. That’s not hysteria. It’s self-protection. I get that. I only meant to say that, because they mishandled, it likely triggered a fight-or-flight type response and she chose not to meet with them. At that point, they should’ve recognized that, whatever their intent, she needed love and freedom more than counsel at that moment and let it go. As they did not, they wounded an already wounded woman further. And, so, needed to repent, no matter what their original intent may have been. I hope that clarifies somewhat what I meant. I didn’t mean for it to sound like she was too emotional to understand or communicate or anything. Only that emotions can make it wise to lean on counsel…and she did, just not the counsel they expect and thus a whirlwind of bad-handling and miscommunication from TVC and an internet full of folks casting doubt on the whole church. I don’t like it. But I get it…how it must seem from outside.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader.

Stop, you’re killing me. LOL, as the kids say. And put down that Kool-aid. Everything, and I do mean everything, is planned, monitored, reported, and analyzed at Central Office. No, I mean this. You are being totally naive. Chandler is the Brand and the draw at The Village and always has been. He was joined at the hip with Driscoll at Acts29. Let’s try to keep this discussion on the Reality Road and not take scenic flights of fancy.

Gram3 wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.
We’re not talking about tastes and preferences regarding gender/sex. We are talking about the nature of humanity and whether their are classes of humans arranged in a hierarchy. Please do not confuse the issue nor minimize it. They are willing to throw away the Eternal Son’s status to salvage their own, so this is not trivial.

We are talking about interpretation of scripture…something plenty of people disagree on. I’ve never heard anything taught at TVC to suggest that women are less than equal…only that they have different roles. I find no fault with anyone for disagreeing with that.

Gram3 wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
He’s taken great care to NOT be THE leader.
Stop, you’re killing me. LOL, as the kids say. And put down that Kool-aid. Everything, and I do mean everything, is planned, monitored, reported, and analyzed at Central Office. No, I mean this. You are being totally naive. Chandler is the Brand and the draw at The Village and always has been. He was joined at the hip with Driscoll at Acts29. Let’s try to keep this discussion on the Reality Road and not take scenic flights of fancy.

I’m not trying to insult anyone. I would appreciate the same courtesy. You are entitled to believe what you like. I’m happy at my church. My family is happy. I’ve been there and walked there. There is certainly the desire in me to defend what I have seen and know to be good, but I can be content to agree to disagree and leave you in peace. I don’t want to be the one troubling the waters if minds are already made up.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

she did, just not the counsel they expect and thus a whirlwind of bad-handling and miscommunication from TVC and an internet full of folks casting doubt on the whole church. I don’t like it. But I get it…how it must seem from outside.

Making a bit of progress here. They did not expect her to have outside counsel because they have deluded themselves that they are the KeyKeepers, so it never occurred to them that a smart and Bereaneque woman might think for herself and consult people from outside the Groupthinktank. But she did, and these ELDERS became fools because they believed their own lies about themselves and their Spiritual Authority and proceeded to act accordingly.

The internet is hardly full of folks calling out Matt Chandler. There may be isolated non-story stories like the one at CT that reads like a press release. At least as much as I could read of it. It was the same stuff that MPT published, so I’m calling press release.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

I don’t know anyone in this personally.

But I’ve read both sides and Karen still sounds more credible to me, and TVC, only after getting blow back, has started to release these apologetic press releases that don’t sound too heart-felt but more CYA.

Also, are you implying that Karen was lying in her statements here:
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2015/05/karen-hinkleys-response-to-village.html

I read transcripts of Matt Chandler’s melt down over anonymous critics, too. He doesn’t sound like an all-around nice guy or very approachable.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I’m not trying to insult anyone.

Please re-read your initial comments. I am not trying to insult you as much as wake you up to the way things are. Not the way you think they are, but the way they really are. I have been in your position in that respect. Several times.

The Authoritarian Church has bodies littering the landscape who were once as convinced as you are that they are in the Right Church with the Right Leadership. Until they found out they were not in the Right Church. I’ve been trying to get you to zoom out historically and Biblically and examine whether or not Authoritarian Church has anything whatsoever to do with Christ and whether the Spiritual Authorities look like Jesus. I think that is a very difficult case to make. This can be a wake-up call or you can hit snooze and go back to sleep. Your choice, because I’m not authoritarian.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

The absolute smartest response was not to meet with them. She dodged a star chamber. That is my number 1 advice to folks in authoritarian systems who come to disagree with them.

She had probably figured out to some extent how they would react to the situation based upon their teaching about marriage, roles and divorce.

Evidently, viewing child porn is not that big of a deal to them. Their subsequent actions with protecting Jordon’s reputation from parents with children for 3 months, proved that.

sam wrote:

Translation: ALL pedos are welcome here! no true repentance or counseling needed, we will even screw your victims if they insult you

Thank you. Very true.

Every time TVC or Duggar defenders on social media keep minimizing child sex abuse by going on and on about how “we’re all sinners,” “we all need grace,” “You must not believe the Gospel can heal pedos,” “even pedos deserve Christian fellowship” etc-

I can just imagine there’s a child predator observing all this on the internet, looking up local churches in his area to start attending, because Christian kids are such easy targets, because their parents are way too trusting.

Lydia wrote:

They want to know who they are so they can “care” for them like they did Karen.

Mao did the same thing in the years leading up to the Cultural Revolution. Loosen up and “Let a Thousand Flowers Bloom” so they show themselves, then sic the Red Guard on them.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

Dallasite wrote:
That is the kind of behavior and thinking that only gives atheists and haters of Christians and Christ more ammunition, it further turns them away from Christ and confirms them in their unbelief.
I can’t speak to some of the other issues you brought up, but I thought I would address this. Seeing this kind of behavior isn’t a confirmation for my atheism. That involves other things, both more complex and simple. Seeing this kind of behavior is just what people in groups do, I expect it out of any group that has power over people. Monsters and devas are a part of all of us. I’d say worry less about what you look like to us and just realize that there is a potential for abuse in any system so be on the lookout in your groups.

Just coming out of lurking to agree with this. I am a former Christian, now atheist. My reasons have little to do with the behavior of Christians.

FWIW, when a Christian is kind to me I attribute it to them being kind, not to their religion. Same with unkindness – when a Christian is unkind I don’t think, “Well that just goes to show you Christianity is a crock!” I assume they are having a bad day, and if it seems long-lived, I assume they are struggling with deeper pathology. (Which isn’t to say that some Christian belief systems are better for society than others IMO.)

Good and bad behavior just doesn’t seem correlated to Christianity in my experience, so it doesn’t make sense to me to either blame the religion or give it credit overall. People are people, and they behave the way they do for many reasons, most of which are more interesting than whether they are a Christian or not.

@ sam: Oh I do not think he should ever be around children again, I meant he could help without actually being out in the field himself. I believe he should be in prison.

sam wrote:

js wrote:
If what I’ve said is totally untrue of you, let it roll. If there is truth in it, consider it and adjust.
do you want me to appreciate your coming in here and telling me what to do, and to appreciate your disregard of what i said and your turning it back onto me? I dont.

Sam, I am sorry we have reached an impasse. I am having trouble seeing where I told you what to do. I stated up front everything as my opinion, affirmed that I could be wrong and even if right did not say my words apply to everyone here. I respect your right to your opinion and am not trying to turn anything back on you. You can evaluate what I said and dismiss it or consider it, that’s all I’m saying.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.

Gram3 wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism.
We’re not talking about tastes and preferences regarding gender/sex. We are talking about the nature of humanity and whether their are classes of humans arranged in a hierarchy. Please do not confuse the issue nor minimize it. They are willing to throw away the Eternal Son’s status to salvage their own, so this is not trivial.

Also not trivial is the inability to deal with adults who are not married. Complementarianism does NOTHING for me as a single, middle-aged, never married, childless adult female with a job, a mortgage and a cat. And I had a father (RIP daddy) who raised me to be self reliant. He would never have been my “headship,” and he would have looked down in disdain on any sort of arrangement where I was less because I am female.

TVC is great as long as you fit within a specific mold. But be not of the right groupings (married, well-off) and I bet it’s a horribly uncomfortable mold.

Gram3 wrote:

js wrote:
surely you can see how your opposition to a “system” could give you the impetus to tear down that system and how that opposition might produce some bias in you and in other commenters?
Oh, I totally and freely acknowledge that my interest is in tearing down the System that is a strangler fig on the real Fig Tree. It is a false gospel that has become popular and profitable.
Yes, I am definitely interested in cutting it down, digging it out, and burning the pieces so that new life can spring out of the ground that has been consumed by this.

That’s all fine and totally up to you. But do you acknowledge that this stance might bring with it a built-in bias against these folks that would keep you from seeing anything good? Is it possible that Matt Chandler could be a blessing to many people or all they all deluded?

@ js:
I see their basic paradigm of the Kingdom being corrupt. That does not mean that they are totally corrupt or cannot do good things or that people cannot benefit. What it does mean is that they will continue to oppress God’s people because authoritarianism will inevitably create disasters like this one. I say that the System is anti-Christian, and that is not the same thing as each individual who propagates the System not being a Christian. I hope we can keep those distinctions. I want the System destroyed. I do not want people destroyed, including any of the Gospel Glitterati. I want them to find true religion and not this false religion that is so grievous.

js wrote:

I would not take the word “System” for one, for it does not describe what I believe. We would also have to carefully define hierarchy and some of the other words you often use.

I’m not saying that you subscribe to the System, but there is an authoritarian system where an elite rules over all the others. This is not the way that the Father has set up his household of faith where we are all brothers and sisters and one in Christ. That is inconsistent with a static hierarchy between classes among all of the brothers and sisters.

I don’t know what is so difficult about understanding hierarchy in the context of Complementarianism. The question is quite simple, really. Did God ordain males to rule over females as part of his original creation or did he not? I say he did not, because there is no textual evidence for such hierarchy. What there is is a long tradition of male hierarchy which makes some people *see* hierarchy which is not in the text. I think we should employ sound reasoning and sound and a consistent hermeneutic to get at the best approximation of what God intended by what he said in his book. I find no such sound reasoning nor consistent hermeneutic among the writings of the Complementarians. ISTM that claiming a position of irrevocable rule over another based on sex or race or class or any other marker is a very big claim to make and requires substantial proof. If you can point me to the text, not the speculative readings of the text, but the actual text where God ordained any hierarchy between classes of humans or between brothers and sisters in the church or between husbands and wives in the home, then please do so. I’ve been asking for the magic texts for a long time, but so far no luck.

dee wrote:

js wrote:
That comparison is that some at TWW see only the worst in those they perceive as “the enemy” and write from that perspective, which is the same thing I see at P&P.
This is the blog of the Deebs. If you have a problem, speak to us and tell us what we are doing wrong. Show us with links-not with innuendoes.
As for our commenters, we have Christians, non Christians and atheists who visit here.I listen to all sides and rarely delete a comment. You can lecture people on “how to love online” but I prefer to let them speak and listen to their thoughts, no matter how harsh.
I am not running a Bible study here. Instead, I am trying to get a conversation going that involves a lot more that BFFs who all agree on everything anyway. I want to hear more than I want to tell people how and what to say.
If you want nice” discussion. go on over to TGC blogs which delete a whole bunch of comments, especially as they relate to child sex abuse issues at SGM.But, they are nice-I looooooove this post-type comments.

I have made this same point elsewhere on this blog (most recently the Piper/C. Peter Wagner/ Duck Dynasty/ Robert Morris article), namely that there are certain personalities who seem to be able to do no right in the eyes of many and because of their past actions and theological convictions, I think they are seen as the enemy by many people here. It is my opinion and only that and it could be wrong. Conversation normally thrives where different perspectives meet with a desire to really listen to and understand the other. Without pushback and different perspectives, it is not much of a conversation, it is an echo chamber. I for one think the Texas Truthsayer guy on this thread added to the conversation. He was not belligerent with people and he brought a different perspective, even if most here would disagree with him.

js wrote:

I also think it is worth bringing in the biblical balance of the gentleness of Jesus, of Paul, or John or many other men and women in the Bible who are known for humility rather than hubris.

White washed tombs was gentle? They should go all the way and emasculate themselves is gentle?

There is a time and place for calling things for what they are: Evil.

That is how I view guys like Chandler, Driscoll and Mahaney, etc. There is nothing for me to accept or come together with them about. I am not interested in playing the unity game with them. I am hoping people come out from them.

There are a lot of comments here that I couldn’t read, particularly some by an individual confused as to the meaning of ‘truth’, who intends to malign the name of the great state of Texas, for one, but I digress. I wanted to re-post what I have shared on Facebook about this protest, which I am attending. I posted this press release (which I received as an email from SNAP leaders), in a couple of closed groups I manage that are aimed towards community-initiated child advocacy efforts. I used one line from this in a Twitter status, too, so if you see that on the Twitter-verse, hi, that’s me.

I have attended a few similar events at other places of worship over the years, and I can tell you with good faith that it is indeed an informational rather than confrontational demonstration. There have been many discussions on the mishandling of this case by TVC leadership. That is not what we are there to talk about. We simply want to inform this community of the very real danger within their midst, as TVC has not taken proper steps to protect its children and inform parents of the seriousness of the situation. I would encourage you to also read this post: [link to “She Speaks”- Watchkeep post], which paints a very clear picture of the manipulative, dangerous behavior of Jordan Root, and points to the need for this event to occur in the first place.

On a personal note, this case hits very close to home for me, as I know firsthand the pain of being abused by a religious leader. All I want to do is protect children that are at risk, and give a voice to those that may have already been victimized, to let them know they are not alone, and it’s safe to speak up. I stand up today, because someone else stood up for me. And I’m ready to do the same for these little ones. Will you join us?

(Feel free to re-use my words elsewhere, particularly for Dallas people if you are issuing a call for people to join us.)

So, to reiterate, for those commenters here that would claim this protest is unnecessarily confrontational, or, essentially, that we’re making too much noise- I don’t know your intentions in posting here, but really, the bottom line is, there are children who need protecting. I feel I must also take a stand for those who have been spiritually abused- which includes many, many adults (see: Watchkeep’s post on stories from TVC, for starters), but I know many Villagers don’t see it this way. At the bare minimum, however, there are families at TVC that need to know the true scope of this issue, not the minimized, generalized, watered-down version of events put forth by TVC leadership. I find it very hard to believe that there aren’t local victims of Jordan Root, and it is critical for any child who has been abused to see adults taking a stand and saying that this is wrong, and there are people out there who care. At the very least, we should be concerned for the ‘very least’ of us, the children who have no voice, who need our help.

Lydia wrote:

js wrote:
I also think it is worth bringing in the biblical balance of the gentleness of Jesus, of Paul, or John or many other men and women in the Bible who are known for humility rather than hubris.
White washed tombs was gentle? They should go all the way and emasculate themselves is gentle?
There is a time and place for calling things for what they are: Evil.
That is how I view guys like Chandler, Driscoll and Mahaney, etc. There is nothing for me to accept or come together with them about. I am not interested in playing the unity game with them. I am hoping people come out from them.

Of course it is a both/and, like I said. Paul said his appearance was not impressive and that he wasn’t particularly threatening to people. Jesus said of Himself, “I am meek and lowly in heart.”

I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.

Gram3 wrote:

talk about servant-leadership

servant is not an adjective, it is a noun

js wrote:

I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.

That last part is telling.

When you think of the Beatitudes ask yourself a simple question. Do you honestly think Jesus was telling the average Jew they must allow the Jewish religious leaders to slap them over and over? That they must carry their coats an extra mile if they demand it? And so on?

Who do you think Jesus was talking about?

I mean do you honestly think Jesus was advocating they be spiritally abused by the their own religious leaders and put up with it?

Lydia wrote:

js wrote:
I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture. That’s not deflection. I have nothing to gain or lose from this, I don’t even agree with Chandler on some big issues.
That last part is telling.
When you think of the Beatitudes ask yourself a simple question. Do you honestly think Jesus was telling the average Jew they must allow the Jewish religious leaders to slap them over and over? That they must carry their coats an extra mile if they demand it? And so on?
Who do you think Jesus was talking about?
I mean do you honestly think Jesus was advocating they be spiritally abused by the their own religious leaders and put up with it?

Of course not. “Blessed are the poor in spirit. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers. Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness’ sake.” Every one of those Beatitudes should be what we are moving toward in our lives and what God is progressively making us. Matt Chandler should be going there, wathcbloggers should be going there, commenters should be going there (if they are Christians) and I should be going there. My prayer is that these events will move Chandler and TVC elders toward greater conformity to these ideals. And I hope in our interactions about these controversies that we will also emulate these Beatitudes. Every one of them. So we come humbly, recognizing our own sinfulness and limitations even as we mourn the sin against Karen and the sins of Jordan and TVC elders. And this blend of self-awareness and the awareness of the sins of others causes us to approach these matters with both meekness and a hunger and thirst for righteousness. And as we search for answers we don’t forget to search our own hearts that we are pure in heart and to extend mercy to those who need it (which in this case is everybody involved, even when there are remaining consequences which will need to be faced) and I think we need to work for peace among believers, which doesn’t mean we ever take a strong stand or even use strong words but our ultimate goal is peace. And then finally we recognize that this approach will be largely rejected . . . but that’s ok because the rewards mentioned in Matthew 5:1-12 are worth it. I want it to be possible to live that life online and offline and I believe it is possible.

@ Dallasite:

That Texas TruthSayer TruthTeller guy totally needs to be reading your posts in this thread, Dallasite.

Lydia wrote:

From my view of watching this train wreck of YRR/Acts 29 for the last 15 years or so, they have a very different view of sexual sin. Especially when it involves children. I do think it stems from their caste system view. Jordon becomes most important in this scenerio by the fact he is male. The children Jordon viewed are throw aways because grace to the male is most important. Karen is “rebellious” and does not know her place.

I wonder, if the children victims had been male, do you think TVC would have reacted any differently, or they just don’t care because Jared’s favored target group was girls?

js wrote:

My posts have been an effort not to step back from the serious situation of TVC or write it off because “I don’t like your tone.” I am talking about a bigger issue of how we conduct ourselves online. You want specifics, again I just refer you to these threads.

Your sermons are becoming redundant.

js wrote:

Everybody is trying to control the narrative.

Prove it. Where have we framed a narrative that Chandler is totally bad or wrong? We have addressed a toxic theology which he promotes. Please keep those ideas separate and stop implying that this is one big ad hom against Chandler. We have presented arguments and facts. Refute them if you would, please.

Law Prof wrote:

When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt

Does anyone have a link to the Chandler audio of him yelling about anonymous posters being narcissistic zeroes? 🙂

Lydia wrote:

They do not seem to have given much thought at all to the child victims.

Nope. Currently engaged in a Twitter conversation with Matt Rollings who seems far more concerned about proving a point and being ‘right’ than about any victim. It’s sickening. There are young victims that don’t have a voice, or a platform for that voice, and they are being silenced. For what?!? To prove some petty point? Because it would not be gentle or meek or what-have-you to say, ‘hey, there’s a predator in our midst, and the church leaders are protecting him, just FYI’?

I did something wrong with the copying there, the example was from Lydia, not Gram3.

Gram3 wrote:

js wrote:
I have trouble reconciling the Beatitudes with our online comment culture.
Women should be meek while men inherit the earth. Women should be peacemakers and shut up. Is that what you mean? If not, then why not just state plainly what you do mean?

All of us should be meek, peacemakers, etc. simple as that.

@ js:

You have totally missed the very important cultural context. Jesus was not advocating that they be spiritually abused by their religious leaders. He was not teaching them to be door mats to spiritual abuse. Although many controlling leaders whip out the Beatitudes for just that.

Albuquerque Blue wrote:

As a cat person to my very core, I’m sorry we can’t be friends anymore Gram3 now that I know you’re part of the Puptriarchy. ^_^

I like both cats and dogs, so I guess I’m Switzerland in this, neutral.

Lydia wrote:

@ js:
You have totally missed the very important cultural context. Jesus was not advocating that they be spiritually abused by their religious leaders. He was not teaching them to be door mats to spiritual abuse. Although many controlling leaders whip out the Beatitudes for just that.

I don’t see where i’ve missed it. I think the Beatitudes apply to us all and aren’t giving anybody carte blanche to abuse but to bring healing. The persecution part I believe is there to explain what comes to those who stand for truth, the very thing that happened to Jesus Himself and which He promised for His followers.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Gender roles, yes, some folks don’t appreciate complementarianism. I understand that.

Well that’s a vast understatement. 🙂 Do you realize what blog you’re posting on?

Lydia wrote:

@ Gram3:
I have been doing this a long time and recognize the js types. They start out as “concerned” for the victims and try to gain trust of other commenters. Then they start subtley on the sin leveling with commenters. If you push back, they become more and more relentless until it becomes obvious to more folks what the real game is. Seen it a thousand times.
We are in sin for not speaking nicer of those who protect pedophiles and spiritually abuse others.
These are the people at church that if you tell them the pastor raped your daughter they would expect you to find something nice to say about him, too. They think that is “Christian”. I call it the “totalitarian niceness”.

I guess you can believe that if you’d like but it’s simply not true. I am not leveling sin. Let me be emphatic. What Jordan Root has done is monumentally worse that anything I have brought up. What TVC elders did in this situation is worse than what I brought up. So why bring it up? Because we do ourselves a disservice and we walk out of step with Jesus when we resort to speculation, name-calling, broad brushing, etc. I do not condone child abuse and do not believe my suggestions will perpetuate child abuse or cover up abuse. This is not sin-levelling. We can respond in a godly way while still responding. The two are not mutually exclusive. And by godly I do not mean no trace of anger or no strong words, I mean a response that is balanced with meekness, mercy, desire for reconciliation, etc. Neither a blind allegiance or a blind hate. It is possible.

Once again, I think child abuse is deplorable and the handling of this situation by TVC was sinful and wrong-headed in every way.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

to put safeguards in place re: Jordan.

But they did not put safeguards in place.

He was in one of their churches mixing and mingling with others before the church notified people he was a pedo.

Church also encouraged home groups to socialize with him, didn’t tell them Jordan’s pedo tendencies, and some who attend that church say some of the folks in the home groups have small children.

@ js:

You get to define “godly” for us, I suppose. What an over used, misused word. I would have defined it as not protecting a pedophile while disciplining a victim of fraud.

Anyway, good night. Sleep tight.

@ Texas Truthsayer:

You’re seriously happy attending a church where they gave a woman static and grief for not running her life choices by them first, choices which involved wanting to leave a pedo spouse?

If I was attending such a church, that would be a red flag for me, and I would run out of the door.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

I hate to hear that, but if it eases your mind any…one of the things that drew me to TVC was the fact that, in my first week or two attending, Chandler asked “How many of you drove more than 20 minutes to get here?” People raised hands, including myself. “Why are you passing good churches to come here? Why not plant yourself in a church in YOUR neighborhood so you can impact YOUR community? There are lots of good churches you passed getting here! Ask yourself if they preach Christ and Him crucified…do they disciple the body and raise up men and women with a passion for God…and jump in!” And he’s said similar things repeatedly. I have never heard him even talk A29 from the pulpit other than “I was in (insert city) with A29 and…” I’ve seen him tweet welcomes to new A29 pastors and that’s about it.

Sorry, but I’ve seen that schtick before. It’s usually very effective.

Beth wrote:

Just coming out of lurking to agree with this. I am a former Christian, now atheist. My reasons have little to do with the behavior of Christians.

My slide into agnosticism has to do with this, with one or two other reasons. I’m not seeing many Christians living lives that show they really believe what the Bible says.

Then I come to blogs like this and see TVC defenders basically saying showing grace to a pedo is more important than protecting children, or treating the wife of a pedo fairly.

Daisy wrote:

Law Prof wrote:

When I set all that up alongside you discussing how you see all this Jesus in Matt

Does anyone have a link to the Chandler audio of him yelling about anonymous posters being narcissistic zeroes?

Daisy,
It’s disappeared from all of the blogs that it used to be on.

Gram3 wrote:

That no longer works, so they have fallen back to the marriage emphasis. When you think about it from a marketing POV, that actually makes a lot of sense.

Over half the adult American population is single, as of 2014.

Only an itty percent is the June Cleaver demo churches are aiming for, the young marrieds with kids.

You would think these churches would try to compete for the adult singles, because we are a huge group, but they keep catering to June and Ward Cleaver.

“Half Of Adult Americans Are Now Single”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/09/11/the-us-is-becoming-more-european-half-of-adult-americans-are-now-single/

Gram3 wrote:

The content of these threads and our style is what you find most troubling in this situation? Seriously?
What you call caustic and bitter, I call straightforward and honest and plain.

JS might be doing something otherwise known on the internet as “Tone Policing.”

js wrote:

What I said was that the truth is somewhere between Chandler as hero and Chandler as evil.

Out of the many comments I’ve read on this thread and the others, I’ve seen maybe only two people whose views towards Chandler were what I’d consider severely negative.

The vast majority of people are just disagreeing with how Chandler runs TVC and have not come off as thinking he’s totally evil.

Then there’s another category, people like me, who do not think Chandler is 100% evil but who think he’s arrogant, or a jerk, and is partially responsible for hosing over Karen, which is wrong and bad.

I don’t sit around sticking pins in a Matt Chandler voo-doo doll. I just mildly dislike the guy, based on the controversy and his ranty video about anons being zeros.

Michaela wrote:

Daisy,
It’s disappeared from all of the blogs that it used to be on.

Someone had found an audio-only copy a few days ago. I found it again!

Here is is, Matt Chandler calling people zeroes audio:
http://alvinreid.com/?p=1073

I uploaded it to sound cloud, too. In case it should disappear again. https://soundcloud.com/user401680385/chandler_critics

Gram3 wrote:

Texas Truthsayer wrote:
I’m not trying to insult anyone.
Please re-read your initial comments. I am not trying to insult you as much as wake you up to the way things are. Not the way you think they are, but the way they really are. I have been in your position in that respect. Several times.
The Authoritarian Church has bodies littering the landscape who were once as convinced as you are that they are in the Right Church with the Right Leadership. Until they found out they were not in the Right Church. I’ve been trying to get you to zoom out historically and Biblically and examine whether or not Authoritarian Church has anything whatsoever to do with Christ and whether the Spiritual Authorities look like Jesus. I think that is a very difficult case to make. This can be a wake-up call or you can hit snooze and go back to sleep. Your choice, because I’m not authoritarian.

He may not be ready for help, but I have benefitted from everything you said. TT’s loss.

Daisy – for you in the Daily Fail (re: mansplaining statue at the University of the Incarnate Word, Texas)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3103290/Sculptor-defends-work-art-saying-s-two-students-talking-not-mansplaining.html

Michaela wrote:

I have benefitted from everything you said.

I’m happy for that. Keep your eyes on the Jesus revealed in the Bible and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Ladybird wrote:

Thank you! So true! God bless tvc Dallas as they are protested on their holy day to worship. Shameful of these bloggers. Unlike Christ. @ Texas Truthsayer:

Jesus cares about what children need, as do “these bloggers” Dee and Deb, and as does SNAP. Matthew 15:26 “He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” Children need protection. Protecting them requires educating people about the serious danger an admitted child sex offender poses.

The Sabbath is an appropriate time to explain children’s needs. A child attending TVC tomorrow may decide to one day break her or his silence because she or he saw that SNAP believes children without shaming them.

SNAP has helped me in an hour of need. Now SNAP is helping and protecting others. God bless SNAP and Karen Hinkley for caring about the children’s needs!

Haitch wrote:

And where is the numo? Is she having a break staying at my favourite underwater hotel in the Maldives or something – perhaps?

I was wondering that as well. Hope all is well with you Numes.

“Shameful of these bloggers. ”

But it is not shameful of The Village Church and Matt Chandler to coddle a pedophile, and treat those ( Karen ) who hate sexual abuse of children like dirt?

I was sexual abused as a child by a southern Baptist Christian man, and these bloggers are the few Christians that I have found that actually hate child sexual abuse.

@ Guest

Thank you for trusting Dee and Deb of the Wartburg Watch enough that you spoke up about what a Southern Baptist child sexual abuser did to you.

So many child sexual abuse victims are watching this travesty unfold and counting on good people to stand up for the children. It’s time to make it safe for victims to get relief by speaking about what happened to them and trusting listeners to respond with validation, acceptance, and care.

@ Bridget:
cmon – its their church service. The day of the week they come together as a community to worship. Say what you will but protesting at that time is bad news. Satan LOVES this. You wanna make a real difference? Reach out and meet with the TVC leadership. Ask to speak at DTS? Make inroads and build bridges. Work to build community and not build down walls.

@ Guest:
So yeah- he’s not coddling anyone. Please. Seriously. This language is baseless. Would you rather Jordan be out there- under no watchful eye? I mean he’s not arrested – for all we know he could change his name or head into Mexico. TVC is doing a MINISTRY by ministering to him. They are keeping eyes on him and that may be saving kiddos in so many ways. TVC nor can these bloggers force any agency to arrest him. So he is a free man and the ONLY ones actually focused on him NOT reoffending or fleeing ( which is what a lot would do in light of this) are TVC staff.

Ladybird wrote:

Satan LOVES this.

Ladybird wrote:

This is nothing but division within the body for clicks and notoriety.

Now BillM, can I include this also? I’m going to call it…
“I tawt I taw a puddy tat”.

Haitch wrote:

Now BillM, can I include this also? I’m going to call it…
“I tawt I taw a puddy tat”.

You did! You did!

@ Ladybird:

How can I build bridges with people who are not trustworthy? You are free to trust them if you please but I believe it is a fools errand.

What Satan loves is the authoritarianism (people following leaders and thinking it is the same as following Christ). And he loves calling evil good and good, evil which is how they approached the Josh/Karen situation. Those are just a few of Satan’s favorite things.

Unity for the sake of unity can enable all sorts of abuse and evils.

Thinking out loud, but if a church has been kept in the dark about things they should have known, and if the ELDERS who have kept them in the dark has caused rsk to children, and if the same ELDERS have been bludgeoning an innocent woman who is trying to protect those and other children, and if Jesus was concerned with children, then what better day and what better place to raise awareness of these things?

Just want to also observe the delicious irony that the first invocation of the Puddy Tat rule was in response to posts by Ladybird. And I’m pretending that Ladybird isn’t a synonym for ladybug. Work with me.

Lydia wrote:

a few of Satan’s favorite things.

Oh, there is a song there somewhere…

@ Gram3:

I know…tactless.

…and if the devil doesn’t like it he can sit on a tack, ouch!

Ladybird wrote:

cmon – its their church service. The day of the week they come together as a community to worship. Say what you will but protesting at that time is bad news. Satan LOVES this.

Satan loves to see children harmed and abused while church leaders leave their members in the dark about predators in their midst. And the leaders don’t have the right to decide that I don’t need to know about such predators. This is deception. Protecting children IS more important then one day of someone’s worship day. Worship is a life dedicated to God and his ways anyway. It’s not about one day of the week.

Ladybird- I am a member of SNAP, and have been for several years. I will be standing outside TVC with them tomorrow morning. I am also a survivor of sexual abuse at the hands of a minister, his wife, and several church leaders. All I want to do is reach out to families and children and let them know the seriousness of what has happened, at a time when a large number of these families and children are likely to be there. They deserve to know there is a predator in their midst, and TVC has not taken steps to adequately protect children. I simply want to protect kids and let any who have suffered know that they are not alone. We would not be there if TVC leadership had handled this properly. If they had done their job, their duty, there would be no need for SNAP’s presence. We are standing out there to fill in the gaps, not to tear down a church, not to assault any one’s faith.

Also, as someone else mentioned, tons of abuse survivors, particularly those abused by church leaders, are watching this situation unfold, and it is excruciating to hear so many Christians standing up for a church that has protected a pedophile, even calling those of us who seek justice, true restoration, true healing, all sorts of awful names, assuming bad intentions on our behalf. I won’t apologize for any inconvenience or discomfort you might feel, because I can tell you anybody who has been hurt by the church or those representing it has not chosen to be hurt. They’re pretty damn inconvenienced and uncomfortable by what has happened to them. It’s important to listen to victims and survivors. Just as I can learn from someone else who has had a different experience than me, I hope others can get out of their own way and take the opportunity before them to learn from the pain of others so that the same sort of damage does not happen in their own community. We are not against you. We are all one. We seek healing, justice, and protection for those who do not have a voice, for the kids no one is standing up for. That is all.

@ Bridget:
so others can speculate but not me? Thats what this whole blog is! LOL @ Haitch: Ok – here ya go. I condemn the actions of Jordan Root and what he did. And I hope and pray that either 1: he is truthful and all he’s done as been confessed or 2: that he confesses it all and turns himself in. I pray for the children that he watched. That they have been or will be rescued and that they find healing and therapy for their pain.

Does that work? See. One can condemn what has happened and still not hold to yall’s train of thought on all these matters.

@ Ladybird:

The articles on this blog are based on pages of documentation which you can read and conversations with Karen.

SNAP’s motives are to protect children (on any day). It is probably stated on their blog. They are not interrupting anyone’s worship anyway. They are not going into the building. Folks are still free to enter and do what they do.

Any response to this Bridget wrote:

Satan loves to see children harmed and abused while church leaders leave their members in the dark about predators in their midst. And the leaders don’t have the right to decide that I don’t need to know about such predators. This is deception. Protecting children IS more important then one day of someone’s worship day. Worship is a life dedicated to God and his ways anyway. It’s not about one day of the week.

Since you were concerned about what satan might be doing.

@ Daisy:
Im not a troll. Im a mom and a wife and most of all a believer in Christ. Just because I don’t agree with your remarks doesn’t make me a troll. Truth be told you have no idea what convos happened and with whom when? Has ANYONE heard from a parent that they unknowingly invited JR into their home due to this? Do you know the date when his home group leaders were made aware? Do you think that , while being under watch of TVC and living in a home of a LAWYER that they’d be like – sure- head on over to so and so’s house without informing them privately? Truth is – no one knows. Some general emails sent out but we have no idea what specific convos between people happened and when they did.

Lydia wrote:

@ Ladybird:
6000 people in your church would not know about Jordon if Karen had not made it public. She forced the issue by speaking up about his hienous crime he has been engaged in for a large part of his deceptive Christian life. So much for watchful eyes and the “ministering” “care” of your leaders. Your leaders wanted to keep it a secret from the members and were able to for 3 months.
Their actions in this mess prove they were never concerned about ANY of the victims including the children he viewed.

1st off-I live in cali and I don’t got to TVC.

2: you actually have no idea when or if something would have been shared. Thats the truth. You can speculate -fave pastime – but have no real idea. And a lot of people knew about his situation in those 1st 3 months. What they chose to share in general emails is not indicative of what what conversations they had with people starting from day 1 of his arrival in the US.

@ proudjezebel:
Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.

@ Ladybird:

So why would it be a big secret for only a few since it involves pedophilia? Isn’t transparancy the best way for Christians to go? I come from the mega world backstage and I can tell you that when people imply we don’t know the whole story, I totally get what that means.

And I agree with Gram, you have not mentioned their treatment of Karen even once. That does not concern you? What about the children Jordon violated by viewing?

Here is something to consider: If the protestors/organization go into the church to teach then they are subject to the authoritarian guys who run the place and decide for others what scripture and words mean. That would be a huge mistake because we now know there really is no freedom of conscience belief at TVC. Many here are for getting away from the secretive authoritiarian leader model who protect pedophiles and discipline the victims. Many of us do not think it is of Christ.

Ladybird wrote:

Do you think that , while being under watch of TVC and living in a home of a LAWYER that they’d be like – sure- head on over to so and so’s house without informing them privately?

The lawyer has a job and a commute, I assume. He can’t be guarding Jordan Root 24/7 or even a large part of the day.

In case you don’t know the facts, there is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that rivals that of the Catholic Church.
Sources: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the United States
and Richard Hammar (Harvard-educated attorney) of Church Law & Tax. Mr. Hammar, who studies more than 12,000 lawsuits against churches a year for his annual report of why churches get sued, has noted that Child Sexual Abuse is the No. 1
reason that churches are getting sued every single year, for many years.

http://www.churchlawandtax.com/blog/2015/may/top-5-reasons-churches-went-to-court-in-2014.html

The issue is so serious for Church Mutual that they are dropping coverage for churches that won’t minister to sex offenders separately.

@ Michaela:
you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

Ladybird wrote:

@ proudjezebel:
Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.

The Village Church pastors/elders don’t want anybody else’s advice, as we have all seen by this train wreck that they created.

Amy Smith’s blog and SNAP’s blogs and The Wartburg Watch are here, and others.
The Village Church has done…no reaching out.

Michaela wrote:

Ladybird wrote:
@ proudjezebel:
Im sorry but I don’t believe you. If you were reaching out to TVC- asking to speak to parents at a meeting or perhaps help train their children staff- Id get you. This? I don’t get.
The Village Church pastors/elders don’t want anybody else’s advice, as we have all seen by this train wreck that they created.
Amy Smith’s blog and SNAP’s blogs and The Wartburg Watch are here, and others.
The Village Church has done…no reaching out.

ohmygosh- can you blame them? I mean – Id hardly reach out to y’all if I was them! LOL! This is where advocates of children and those that love Christ may think about reaching out to them. Taking the rhetoric down a notch and saying- we want to help and walk along side you to make church a safer place for kids.

I mean, I know this wont happen whatsoever but a girl can dream I suppose.

proudjezebel wrote:

Those are great action steps, that TVC should take the initiative on. They haven’t listened so far. It’s called a protest, but I’ve been to these things before, and we’re honestly just trying to inform those who need to know, who haven’t been informed, and Sun. AM is the perfect opportunity. But it’s clear you’ve already made up your mind on what this is going to be, and nothing any of us say is going to convince you otherwise. I’ve stated the intent, clearly, but you didn’t listen to that, either. I hope Villagers will treat us with grace. There are some (including those who defend them) that haven’t. But I hope for the best. I hope they are able to let their defense down long enough to listen. I hope you are able to do the same.

well I hope you share how it goes down on here. Of course I am saddened by it all and yes- i don’t think its good and wish y’all would use your passion to reach into this situation in a different way. I hope you can see how one can state intent but then have people question it based on their actions – i.e. : picketing with signs at a church on Sunday. Are y’all going with signs? Bullhorns? Hoping to have media there? See- all that stuff really rubs against honest to goodness intent- imo

and girl- I get your heart. People have good hearts but don’t follow that up with the best and most helpful actions sometimes. I can feel that way about what your taking part in- that doesn’t make me blind or closed minded. And it doesn’t make you inherently bad in my book. I mean, Id not agree with you at all on this but I don’t dislike you (as much as I could dislike someone I only know via a few online postings).

Michaela wrote:

Ladybird wrote:
@ Michaela:
you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.
The Village Church pastors/elders can do precisely ZERO to stop Jordan Root.
If they tried, he could call the police on them.
As it stands, The Village Church pastors/elders have EMBOLDENED Jordan Root by
attacking Karen before 6,000 people. Jordan must have had a good laugh about that and he knows he’s home free! He, like the rest of us, must have thought: IDIOTS!

Its either they do something ( or at least attempt to) or he’s what? Solo? Thats better? Stressed out , solo, no support whatsoever- what could possibly go wrong? He could flee? Mexico is 5 hrs south. That be a LOT better for all involved. They are doing what they can – and for all we know he’s in inpatient treatment somewhere- you can once again speculate that he’s not but you don’t know and neither do I! And we wont know because of HIPPA! thats what really gets me here- no one knows much and yet everyone acts like they have the inside track.

Ladybird wrote:

girl, I can agree with you that TVC didnt act perfectly and that yes- looking back- having a meeting with at least parents in kids ministry asap ( even tho he didnt serve there- thats where the kids and parents are and high likelyhood to get info out) would have been good. But just because that didnt happen doesn’t at all mean that ipso facto they hate kids and love pedos! Nor does it mean that they didnt try to navigate things in a meaningful way.

I don’t think they “hate” kids and “love” pedophiles. I think they “love” their authority and are concerned about their “image”.

Ladybird wrote:

: until you meet with them and hear from them- you again are speculating on what you thing it will be like. You don’t know them. At all. You think you do because of this but even so, you really don’t. Plus- God calls us to try and reach out – build bridges. I think its a much better way than protesting at a church on Sunday.

I really don’t need to meet with them personally as this has been public thanks to Karen. I did not have to meet Bill Clinton personally to have an opinion on his behavior, either. I have many documents to read written by the leaders of TVC. I know what Matt Chandler teaches. I know all about his dealings with Driscoll, Mahaney and Acts 29. IOW, I know where he comes from and his doctrinal beliefs in church structure.

If there is some secret back channel that negates all the public documentation on this then let us know. Perhaps there is some document that says “Just Kidding” signed by the leaders?

If you don’t think Karen was bullied by these authoritarian leaders AFTER she resigned then we really have nothing more to discuss as we are on totally different planets as to what constitutes proper behavior in the Body of Christ.

Ladybird wrote:

it is apparent that your org ( even if not you per se) desire nothing more than to tear them down.

That is pure speculation, but predictable pure speculation.

@ Michaela:
I repled but its being moderated.

Suffice to say I wish he would have been brought to justice. Tried and convicted. He committed awful crimes against innocent children. But he hasn’t and maybe wont ever be. Until ( if ) that happens – TVC is who is doing what they can to see that he gets help and doesn’t re-offend. It may be all for not- but until he is arrested and convicted – Id rather have him under a watchful eye than zero. I don’t see how that would be better.

Ladybird wrote:

No one does.

Including you? Are you speculating about that, too?

Gram3 wrote:

Ladybird wrote:
No one does.
Including you? Are you speculating about that, too?

Im just playing by the rules y’all have set. To throw things out there and see if it sticks! LOL!

Ladybird wrote:

Truth is – no one knows.

Yep. Exactly.

There’s no telling how many children J. Root may have had access to after he came back from his missions trip, because TVC was so lax about the entire ordeal. TVC didn’t tell the church members for 3 months about the nature of his sin.

I don’t automatically assume everyone who disagrees with me is a troll. Your behavior / attitude was troll-like to me.

Ladybird wrote:

ohmygosh- can you blame them? I mean – Id hardly reach out to y’all if I was them

No, I totally understand why they would not come here or the other EvilWatchWitchBlogs. They have an extraordinarily bad fact set, and we have a lot of people who know how to think, unlike a lot of pewpeons who are trained to obey and not to question. I’d stay as far away as possible, too, and hide behind the skirts of the Gospel Glitterati hoping that this all blows over like at Mars Hill. Oh, wait…

Ladybird wrote:

Im not a troll. Im a mom and a wife and most of all a believer in Christ.

If you attend any TVC related churches, I hope you keep a close eye on your children. Their “escort” (person who is to accompany Root around the church property) is not a guarantee that J. Root won’t have an opportunity to do something.

Like someone else said, prayer is wonderful but may not necessarily protect children from a pedophile.

Ladybird wrote:

@ Gram3:
Lord have mercy I have no idea what your sentence even says! LOL

The Prime Directive is that acknowledgement must be made of the victim’s position. You have said that Karen was not abused. Therefore, I threw the flag on you. The Puddy Tat rule is rather new and much less formal. It is similar to Godwin’s.

Lydia wrote:

Perhaps there is some document that says “Just Kidding” signed by the leaders?

IMO, that is a fair summary of the PR release non-apology.

Ladybird wrote:

@ Michaela:

Im not sure why you keep quoting that to me but thanks- its good to know legal stuff.

You are welcome for that legal information about these federal and state felony sex crimes. I could really tell that you are missing the point and don’t seem to be too well educated about the topic.

Ladybird wrote:

1st off-I live in cali and I don’t got to TVC.

Really? Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

well ladies- I don’t agree with y’all and I don’t think how you’ve handled things are 100% on point but its a free world. I do hope that -as you ask TVC to reflect – that you will do the same.
I have to get back to my weekend and my kids 🙂

Ladybird wrote:

Im just playing by the rules y’all have set. To throw things out there and see if it sticks! LOL!

More speculation and a bonus ad hominem.

Daisy wrote:

Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

Acts29 is everywhere.

Ladybird wrote:

you assume-well you know what they say about that. You have no idea what his days are structured like or who was watching him. No one does.

Yep. Again, that’s what is scary.

And, per your other post, nobody here has said that TVC hates kids or love pedos… but their priorities have been to protect J Root and their reputation.

OTOH, it may be accurate to say they love pedos, because they sent out an e mail to church members telling them to “love on” J. Root once he got back from his missions trip.

A lot of TVC defenders are also going on about how even pedos deserve love and grace. So yes, I’d say there’s a huge blind spot there in how dangerous pedos are or can be.

Ladybird wrote:

or just assume they are lax because you don’t know their inner workings or what took place when outside of certain shared emails and FAQs.

I read the documentation about it. You can read some of it too, here (in the first three or so posts on the page):
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/

Gram3 wrote:

Daisy wrote:

Why are you so honking invested in and defensive of a church you do not even attend? Weird.

Acts29 is everywhere.

And that brings up another thing. Chandler has the entire Acts 29 network behind him including all that entails like the NAMB and Platt at the IMB. Plus other Reformed groups I might have missed that partnered with Acts 29.

Ladybird wrote:

3: addressed my thoughts on Karen- we part ways there. I don’t they abused her or bullied her.

Here is Pastor Wade Burleson’s article about what The Village Church did to Karen.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/it-takes-village-covenant-to-raise.html

“It Takes a Village Covenant to Raise a Bitter Root”

“I’d like to offer you some unsolicited advice, that if taken, might protect you from litigation that every attorney with a shingle on his window would love to take against you. It seems to me that Karen doesn’t want to harm Village Church or anyone else. She just wants people to take child sexual abuse seriously. Here’s my advice.

(1). Write an immediate letter of apology–and I mean immediate– to Karen Hinckley, retracting the earlier letter, and informing Karen that you are indeed accepting Karen’s resignation from your church.

(2). Never speak on behalf of Karen Hinckley again–to anyone–including the members of your congregation.

(3). Realize that your 501c-3 called Village Church is not equivalent to the Kingdom of God. Yes, you play a huge and vital role in His Kingdom, but your non-profit and His Kingdom are not synonymous. Therefore, next time anyone decides they wish to leave your non-profit, let them go.
As a side note, I do wish to encourage you in your continued ministry to Jordan Root. Unlike some, I believe you have an interest in the victims of his abuse. My friends have a hard time believing that you are as concerned for the victims because you’ve taken one of his victims — his wife — to the proverbial gates of hell because she dared disagree with the manner in which you were progressing in your ministry toward her and her former husband.”

And his other article about the dangers of church covenants:

http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/05/five-reasons-to-say-no-to-church.html

Daisy wrote:

Maybe I have misunderstood, but I don’t think they are “protesting” the church but are going to show up to inform people there that there is a pedophile among them. Some of those attending may not be aware.
We had a TVC member (or ex member) post the other day that TVC get lots of new comers every week who may not have heard about J Root.

Exactly. I’ve been to this type of thing before. We’re not ‘picketing’. We are not Westboro. We don’t come with hate disguised as love. Yes, there will be signs. So people who drive or walk by can see from a distance what we are trying to inform them about. We’re not trying to be incendiary. A lot of people get up in arms about us ‘treading on sacred ground’, but to that I say, what of the sacred ground that is a child’s body? A person’s heart? That needs to be protected. As someone with an advanced degree in child advocacy and policy, and over 11 years of experience in the field, I can tell you, TVC did not follow industry-recognized standards for dealing with this sort of situation. Basics in child protection. 101. And as a survivor, where the dynamics in the TVC environment are very similar to those I experienced growing up, I can see all the holes in their strategy, which is not so much a child-protection strategy, as a cover-their-a$$es strategy. The leadership clearly hasn’t listened so far, and they haven’t communicated to those who attend their church- members or new-comers, what they need to know, nor have they taken adequate steps to protect them. So we will take the message to their flock. Our message doesn’t take the form of arrows, unlike much of the rhetoric being shot out by their leaders and those who defend their actions/inaction.

Guest wrote:

“Shameful of these bloggers. ”

But it is not shameful of The Village Church and Matt Chandler to coddle a pedophile, and treat those ( Karen ) who hate sexual abuse of children like dirt?

I was sexual abused as a child by a southern Baptist Christian man, and these bloggers are the few Christians that I have found that actually hate child sexual abuse.

Hi Guest,

Welcome here. I am so sorry for the pain of sexual abuse that you have gone through. Dee and Deb are to thank for this being a safe place for victims.
It’s one of their rules; non-supporters aren’t get blocked.

Daisy wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
Acts29 is everywhere.
Oh. So Ladybird’s church is likely an Acts29 plant?

kids in bed- fixing to have some wine with the hubs but good night y’all- y’all LOVE to extrapolate don’t ya-

NO, I don’t attend an acts 29 church. Can people just disagree with y’all on principle outside the echo chamber y’all have here? I found this blog site via twitter and the postings. Isn’t that what y’all want? So I came and read and some things – like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

I agree with yalls heart and desire to help kids but I don’t agree with this.

Michaela wrote:

Michaela wrote:
Ladybird wrote:
@ Michaela:
Im not sure why you keep quoting that to me but thanks- its good to know legal stuff.
You are welcome for that legal information about these federal and state felony sex crimes. I could really tell that you are missing the point and don’t seem to be too well educated about the topic.
By the way, I was totally blessed to see the sweet video on the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement website about their bringing some little children from an overseas country to the US to testify in federal court about being sexually exploited overseas. Brave little children. And the federal law enforcement officials were so good to them. One of the little girls drew a picture for the woman agent as a gift that showed the child’s healing.

while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic. How is me stating over and over that he deserves to be imprisoned missing the point? He does but he isn’t because of certain technicalities Im sure. I hope that one day he is brought to justice or he confesses on his own accord to LEO’s etc – because even if he is a repentant believer – our actions have consequences and sometimes that means jail and/or a record / plus added to sex offender registry. I wish those things had happened – but they didnt.

Ladybird wrote:

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

Boy, oh, boy. The Acts29 defenders have been coming out of the woodwork lately…
Patrice wrote:
Oh you’re here, too, ladybird. Rather busy today, yes?
She’s been acting out on other blogs, too? Where else have you seen her, Patrice? At Watchkeep?

Like I said and maintain- reflection is most def need on both sides of this.

I don’t recall seeing you doing any *reflecting* in your posts. Even Pastor Wade Burleson, a conservative Baptist preacher in Oklahoma, wrote about what The Village Church did wrong to Karen and what they needed to do to make it right, here is part of it:

“I’d like to offer you some unsolicited advice, that if taken, might protect you from litigation that every attorney with a shingle on his window would love to take against you. It seems to me that Karen doesn’t want to harm Village Church or anyone else. She just wants people to take child sexual abuse seriously. Here’s my advice.

(1). Write an immediate letter of apology–and I mean immediate– to Karen Hinckley, retracting the earlier letter, and informing Karen that you are indeed accepting Karen’s resignation from your church.

(2). Never speak on behalf of Karen Hinckley again–to anyone–including the members of your congregation.

(3). Realize that your 501c-3 called Village Church is not equivalent to the Kingdom of God. Yes, you play a huge and vital role in His Kingdom, but your non-profit and His Kingdom are not synonymous. Therefore, next time anyone decides they wish to leave your non-profit, let them go.
As a side note, I do wish to encourage you in your continued ministry to Jordan Root. Unlike some, I believe you have an interest in the victims of his abuse. My friends have a hard time believing that you are as concerned for the victims because you’ve taken one of his victims — his wife — to the proverbial gates of hell because she dared disagree with the manner in which you were progressing in your ministry toward her and her former husband.

Prove everyone wrong and apologize to Karen Hinckley. Accept her resignation of membership. And then stop viewing your office as pastor/elder of Village Church as the ultimate authority in the Kingdom of God.

Jesus Christ is Karen Hinckley’s ultimate authority, and He has led her to resign her membership.

Don’t argue with Jesus. 🙂 “

Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

She’s been acting out on other blogs, too?

She might be a he. Ladybirds/bugs can be male as well. She/he is a little prickly, so it makes me consider that possibility.

Never Again wrote:

That man should not be around kids. Period. Not in the pews, not in the hallways, not in the restrooms, not anywhere. He won’t be looking at children and seeing them in the same way you or I would. He sexualizes children and fantasizes about them. He defiles them simply by his proximity.

I confess I had not thought of that. Which shows how little I know about the topic of child sexual abuse. I’m getting an education.

@ Gram3:
goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

Ladybird wrote:

@ Gram3:
goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

How old are you? You seem to have a lot of rough edges. Gram3 is really lovely and you would do well to comport yourself in the genteel manner that she does.

Ladybird wrote:

Michaela wrote:

Ladybird wrote:
Ladybird wrote:
while I appreciate the info I don’t see how what I said shows you that I “missed the point” and don’t seem ” too well educated” on the topic.
Your posts show that you are behind the times. We have an EPIDEMIC of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church that exceeds that of the Catholic Church according to the insurance companies (like Church Mutual) and
the lawyers who advise churches and write on these topics (like Richard Hammar at Church Law & Tax).
You go off on tangents that have NOTHING to do with child safety. You said you have children. Have you always been this goofy and irresponsible?

well I take this as a sign that you all are 1: bullies and 2: really just want this to be an echo chamber for yalls good pleasure. I believe there are some decent people here- and if so, I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

????

Most mothers would crawl through glass to protect their children. Your lack of concern for the well-being of ANY church’s children is alarming.

There is an epidemic of child sexual abuse in the conservative evangelical church.
Sources: Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the U.S., and
Richard Hammar, attorney, at Church Law & Tax.

Stay on point: What DO YOU PROPOSE that should be done to protect children in the church?

Well, that formatted weirdly.

Ladybird wrote:

I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

. . . working for the Body? What does that mean.

Ladybird wrote:

@ Gram3:
goodness- like I said up above Im a mom and a wife. A fellow sister in Christ- though you chose to not treat me as such. I hope some of those that follow on here can see a bit into your heart as well.

Sometimes I miss posts. I am a mom, wife, grandmother, and a fellow sister in Christ. We disagree strongly. Honestly, I have trouble seeing your viewpoint from a conservative Christian perspective, which is what I’ve always been. Likewise you can’t see the perspective of those of us who say that the abusive doctrines and practices must be stopped. Enough is enough of the culture of celebrity and power in what should represent the King whom we are supposed to serve. These men do not look like the Jesus we know from the Bible.

I will not be quiet because someone says I’m not nice. These men have not been very nice to Karen, so that’s not a really persuasive argument, IMO. These are abusive men with passive enablers and aggressive defenders. I’m direct, usually logical, but I am not syrupy sweet like a good little woman is supposed to be in PatriarchyWorld. That’s how my parents raised me. To see people, and especially women, give up their freedom in Christ is just astonishing to me. Why would anyone throw away something so precious and so costly to our Savior?

So I will speak up for the little people, whether children or others that have been placed under oppressive systems. If you don’t like what we say here, then you might be more comfortable elsewhere. However, I truly hope you stay and contribute positively to the discussion we are having about a very serious problem in the church, but that is your choice. You can also choose to lob petty potshots. It would be like me going over to any Gospel Glitterati blog and lobbing petty potshots at them. I would love to have a rational discussion, but they do not permit dissenting views. Because power.

I’m too old to be what these arrogant young men who are defaming the name of our Savior want me to be and want all of my younger sisters in Christ to be. Rather I choose to be like Jesus who had strong words for those who took pride in their strength and gentle words for those who were weak and oppressed. Enough. They need to stop using Jesus as a marketing mask and start looking like him. For a change.

Michaela wrote:

The didn’t treat Karen like an ‘heir in Christ’.

That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

Bridget wrote:

Ladybird wrote:
I hope you see this and know that not everyone here is working for the Body.

. . . working for the Body? What does that mean.

Translation: Shoot-out at the Not-Ok Corral with Sheriff Gram3 and Deputies (Daisy and others) didn’t go as planned.

Ladybird wrote:

like picketing this church- sounded very off to me – a fellow heir in Christ.

What do you have against Americans using their right of free speech to appear peacefully outside a church, and maybe talk to some of the folks going into the church building?

All they want to do is hold up a few signs, or maybe hand out flyers, alerting the church goers that they have a pedophile among them.

It’s not as though this group is going to bring AK-47s, rocket launchers, and grenades to hurl at the church building, or the people who are going inside.

Gram3 wrote:

That’s because they don’t really believe that women are full heirs of Christ and all that inheritance entails. We are not daughters of the King but still daughters of Eve. We can’t fully image Christ because we were created in the derivative image of God, having been created from the man. Yes, that is how twisted and sick this ideology is and how deep the deception goes.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Jesus died for all sins except one. Eve’s. We’ve got to live with that forever, according to the comp guys.

Daisy wrote:

What do you have against Americans using their right of free speech to appear peacefully outside a church, and maybe talk to some of the folks going into the church building?
All they want to do is hold up a few signs, or maybe hand out flyers, alerting the church goers that they have a pedophile among them.
It’s not as though this group is going to bring AK-47s, rocket launchers, and grenades to hurl at the church building, or the people who are going inside.

There was a protest yesterday here in Phoenix (other side of the city) where people did show up with AK-47s and megaphones. They were anti-Muslim and they were protesting the presence of a mosque that has been in the city for a few decades. It was ugly. And yes, there was preaching from at least one of the protesters, telling people they needed Jesus and to read their Bibles. All I could thing was, “Guys, you spew hatred and you’re preaching Jesus? Nope.”

I myself have picketed the church of Scientology on numerous occasions. I have always kept my picket signs truthful and stayed away from church teachings. There’s plenty of church behavior to concentrate on (e.g., it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get up the bridge in Scientology, people have been badly treated in Scientology’s Sea Org, and the Sea Org has what is essentially a prison camp near Hemet, CA). I’m happy with the results over the last 20 year–Scientology is now the gold standard and go-to for “this is a cult.”

And, to be perfectly blunt, some of the actions of Matt Chandler’s The Village Church could be compared to Scientology. For example, there was a Scientologist who sexually assaulted the child of another Scientologist, but it was kept internal because the guy was in a particular positive status (either “power” or “affluence”, I can’t remember). Why does this remind me of TVC? And why do I expect better out of followers of Jesus Christ than of followers of L. Ron Hubbard?

Daisy wrote:

Michaela wrote:

How old are you?

I was wondering that myself.

I first thought (and still maybe do) that this person may be a troll, but maybe the behavior is due to immaturity.

This person comes across to me as being rather deliberately obtuse and somewhat flippant about child abuse in churches.

The posts still sound like a troll. They know too much internal information, have an intractable stance, and it seems like $ is behind their posts.

Daisy wrote:

Lydia wrote:
The comp house of cards falls with their treatment of Karen. It is all documented. Instead of protecting her, they abused/oppressed her for something not her fault at all.

Like I was just saying on another thread this evening, -a reminder- about how around a month ago Owen Strachan of CBMW did several tweets saying how gender complementarians do not tolerate domestic violence, they protect women, etc.

It was really sad to see a complementarian organization claiming that comps protect women, when they usually throw abused wives to the wolves and protect the abusive husband instead.

And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

mirele wrote:

There was a protest yesterday here in Phoenix (other side of the city) where people did show up with AK-47s and megaphones. They were anti-Muslim and they were protesting the presence of a mosque that has been in the city for a few decades. It was ugly. And yes, there was preaching from at least one of the protesters, telling people they needed Jesus and to read their Bibles. All I could thing was, “Guys, you spew hatred and you’re preaching Jesus? Nope.”

Oh, yuk!

@ Gram3:
Those were not Ladybird’s words, just to be clear. I am characterizing what I hear her saying which may not be what she is actually saying.

Gram3 wrote:

EvilWatchWitchBlogs

Hey now, there is a warlock or two here.

Michaela wrote:

And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

Doug Wilson and the pedophile coverup at New St. Andrews. Which is merely one of that person’s disgusting and disgraceful acts.

Bill M wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
EvilWatchWitchBlogs
Hey now, there is a warlock or two here.

You have to say the magic words rapidly 10 times to be admitted: EvilWartWarlockWitchWatch

Michaela wrote:

And a Headless Unicorn and an Atheist.

And an agnostic lesbian feminist. (triple whammy) *raises hand*

Gram3 wrote:

Puddy Tat’s rule

Okay I’m a little unclear
Puddy Tat’s rule: questioning someone’s salvation?

If that is correct then I think we need another one base on today’s TVC defenders. Can we define another classification for the “Satan LOVES this”. The classical argument, basically silencing of any open criticism because, oh my, people will hear. These folks must have their ears and eyes closed to miss all the criticism of the churches by the new testament authors, especially Jesus words to the churches in Revelations.

Suggestions? hush hush rule?

proudjezebel wrote:

I just don’t know how to convey to people who condone the behavior of TVC that it is in fact abusive.

I guess you are right, till you have experienced it, or in my case it was people I care about, you don’t think in those terms. But even if you don’t consider it rising to the level of abuse, and you should, this type of treatment should not happen in a church.

Bill M wrote:

Puddy Tat’s rule: questioning someone’s salvation?

Yes, that’s right. I don’t remember how we got there. Somewhere upthread it was mentioned.

As for the shut-up rule, I propose this bit of Doo Wop which popped immediately into my head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9G0-4TWwew

Sorry about the cut and paste.

@ Bill M:
Well what do you know, the html automagically inserted itself.

Anyway, kids nowadays just don’t know what they’ve missed with jukebox music. Nickel for the jukebox, nickel for the Coke. I think the burgers were 15 cents.

Texas Truthsayer wrote:

Also, in Chandler’s interview with Christianity Today, that those precautions are a “forever” solution…not a “we believe you are better now so those restrictions will be lessened” sort of thing. Jordan is on lockdown and rightly so…forever.

I find this very interesting, given that TVC adheres to “biblical counseling” AKA Nouthetic Counseling, and that they explicitly reject “secular psychology.”

So is Chandler admitting that “secular psychology” is actually valid, given that “secular psychology” asserts that Jordan Root will never be “cured?”

Or does Chandler believe that God can/will miraculously heal Jordan Root from his pedophilia?

Does Chandler think that pedophilia is a psychological illness or simply a sin issue? His actions here, while commendable, seem to directly contradict his own stated beliefs and TVC’s policies regarding secular psychology vs. nouthetic counseling.

Bill M wrote:

Can we define another classification for the “Satan LOVES this”. The classical argument, basically silencing of any open criticism because, oh my, people will hear. These folks must have their ears and eyes closed to miss all the criticism of the churches by the new testament authors, especially Jesus words to the churches in Revelations.
Suggestions? hush hush rule?

The Satan Juke?

There’s already a Jesus Juke rule, please see
http://stuffchristianslike.net/2010/11/16/the-jesus-juke/

@ Serving Kids In Japan:
I gave her a drubbing in Matthew Paul Turner’s combox. Maybe she is an example of what women aren’t allowed to become in Acts 29 churches: grown-up.

Michaela wrote:

Texas Truthsayer These things and more have been taken out of context and twisted with Karen’s raw emotion, which she’s entitled to…but it is effecting the way she’s translating every other action.

That’s a pompous remark to make. This woman has been through how much? Had a church leadership that threatened her, disciplined her after she left before 6000 members, threatened the SIM international ministry and wanted to control her standing with them (and The Village Church threatened the funding of other missionaries too), she’s level-headed through it all…and this is your conclusion about her?

Bless your little heart, you are a piece of work!

Texas Truthsayer,

Please do not defame Karen here at Wartburg Watch. You are disconnected from reality on this subject. It’s plain denial on your part. Said a prayer that God opens the eyes of your heart to truth of this situation. How many children will be hurt and sexually abused before you have eyes to see?

Patrice wrote:

I gave her a drubbing in Matthew Paul Turner’s combox.

I see. I might check it out later. Thanks for the info.

@ Mr.H:

My mom used to tell us this all the time. Isn’t that interesting?

Patrice wrote:

Read your comments at recently-linked SBC post. They do not know how to relate to women. I’ve rarely seen it that clearly.

Sometimes I forget how bad it is because I am out of that world. They have absolutely no idea and would defend to the death how wrong you are about them and relating to a female humoid. If I were Larry instead of Lydia, it would go differently. But even they cannot see that. It is futile to even discuss that with them.

Thing is, I don’t care so it is no big deal. Trying to be accepted into their world is an exercise in futility.

Here is something I would have liked to say but it would have been moderated so I did not bother.

Christian Academy of Louisville stopped renting facilities to CJ Mahaney (when he fled to Louisville to start his new church) after the lawsuit came out and bloggers were contacting them. Why? Because schools have to show a ZERO tolerance for child molesters. And they have to show 100% EFFORT to protect kids.

Even the position of innocent until proven guilty is a problem for schools, especially private ones that rely on tuition. No one wants to take that chance so they move on it. I wish public schools were the same.

The school stopped renting to them before anyone from SG was convicted.

Pastors and churches don’t get this? They should focus on 100% effort to protect children from predators. That means not being “fair” to guys like Jordon. Because most pastors are the first to say, ‘that is not fair’ to the repentent sexual predator. So be it. It is a crime that never leaves them for the rest of their lives. They lived a long con of deception about who they really are and we are supposed to believe they have changed and bring them in around kids?

Haitch wrote:

All of them have in common an attempt at shaming or silencing.

You’ve nailed it. Putting a list together would be a worthy endeavor. I wish this site had an accompanying list for all the acronyms also.

Gram’s Doo Wop is before my time.

@ Mr.H:
Truth is they have really no control over Jordon. These types became an albatross for church leaders. Because of their structure they eventually will have to use “paid minders/security” if they have to keep up the appearance of church discipline. Church discipline will be more than they bargained for and Jordon will be passed off over and over. But for now, Jordon will be embraced and I suspect my the covenant members too becasue they take their cues from the leaders.

I suggest they would be relieved if Jordon were to officially terminate his membership eventually. Their church discipline shitck really becomes an albratross in these type situations. It will be interesting if there is a “Where is Jordon now” followup in 3 years.

I am thinking right now of a situation where a clever murderer got off. Everyone knew he did the grisly murder but there was no real evidence. After the trial he comes forward at a mega church “giving his life to Jesus”. What to do??? The trial was very well known and in the papers every day.

The leaders did not have the nerve to deal with him privately and say it is best if you are not here right now. Give it some time. They made a big deal of him giving his life to Jesus.

Years later he was finally convited of perjury because the family of the victim, his girlfriend, did not let it go. And years after he served his short sentence, someone bought his old house and while ripping up all the carpet, found pictures of the grisly crime in a ziplock bag. He had chopped off her limbs put her in trash bags and buried them. Double jeporady meant he could not be retried. But the mega church gave him plenty of cred when he needed it most.

Deviants often use the church/Jesus as cover. The worst thing we can do is play into their hands. It is perfectly ok to be cautious and proceed with the utmost caution. And it is ok to warn people.

Any updates on how the protest went?

Has Karen been contacted (or her lawyer) by TVC leaders to apologize, or is the public statement supposed to serve as the “apology?”

Ladybird wrote:

well ladies- I don’t agree with y’all and I don’t think how you’ve handled things are 100% on point but its a free world. I do hope that -as you ask TVC to reflect – that you will do the same.
I have to get back to my weekend and my kids 🙂

Is Ladybird (gasp) Kamilla?

proudjezebel wrote:

And an agnostic lesbian feminist. (triple whammy) *raises hand*

Unfortunately you left out ‘liberal’ and ‘non-Anglo Saxon’ but three out of five isn’t bad.

Knitted in the Womb wrote:

Any updates on how the protest went?
Has Karen been contacted (or her lawyer) by TVC leaders to apologize, or is the public statement supposed to serve as the “apology?”

I was there. No media came. There were 4 of us, and we stood out there for 2 hours. We handed out several flyers, some to a couple of people who live in the residential area near the church. I don’t know the answers to your second question. I expect Amy from WatchKeep will be posting on that soon. (Find her on Twitter for updates, as well.) I’ve had a friend who is a member at TVC posting all kinds of statements you’d expect from one who is taught to never question authority, as it seems to be the case at these Acts29 churches. I finally said I would stop debating the issue (on my FB). I’ve been told that I don’t really understand it since I’m unwilling to listen to his sermons, and I’m not ‘walking alongside the church’ in this matter. Hmm. Don’t agree with that. The denial is strong in this one. It’s very frustrating to me, personally. But I’m hopeful that our signs and flyers this morning got some people to question what’s going on. (I’ve linked my Twitter on here, as well- I posted some screenshots of that conversation, if anyone is interested). It felt very empowering to me, personally. But I’m feeling a little disheartened after hearing one of the sheeple spout off all kinds of nonsense and refuse to be reasoned with. Honestly, I’m afraid Chandler et. al. are doubling down on the problematic membership covenant theology and just going the more secretive route with it. There are so many that have been hurt by this church. Plenty of adults have been spiritually abused. I guess people will believe what they want to believe. Chandler is an idol to many.

Credit needs to be given to Chandler and TVC elders to owning up to it serious mistakes with the Roots and with others. Chandler did an excellent job in confessing and asking forgiveness in five specific areas in which there was major fault on the elders part. He opened the door wide open to make things right with anyone who had been offended or hurt in any way. I encourage you to listen to the message online.

@ Jack:
You are being paid how much per post to say the same thing over and over. You are writing to people who have a lot of real world experience. He did an excellent job of delivering a PR message. He stayed on message, but the problem is that his actions and the actions of the ELDERS do not match their words. When it comes to words v. actions, I choose actions. Let us know when they repent of their false teaching and disgraceful actions.

Gram3 wrote:

@ Jack:
He did an excellent job of delivering a PR message. He stayed on message, but the problem is that his actions and the actions of the ELDERS do not match their words. When it comes to words v. actions, I choose actions.

“You have a saying: ‘Knowledge is a three-edged sword.’
We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.'”
— Captain Sheridan, Babylon-5

proudjezebel wrote:

I was there. No media came. There were 4 of us, and we stood out there for 2 hours. We handed out several flyers, some to a couple of people who live in the residential area near the church….It felt very empowering to me, personally. But I’m feeling a little disheartened after hearing one of the sheeple spout off all kinds of nonsense and refuse to be reasoned with. Honestly, I’m afraid Chandler et. al. are doubling down on the problematic membership covenant theology and just going the more secretive route with it. There are so many that have been hurt by this church. Plenty of adults have been spiritually abused. I guess people will believe what they want to believe. Chandler is an idol to many.

I am so proud of you for going! I would have gone too if I lived there.
Yes, it’s unfortunate that people get drawn in to abusive, destructive churches of any size (and there are churches that are much smaller that are just as bad).
I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

Michaela wrote:

I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

I think this is spot-on. A friend of mine who actually cares for me deeply (not the TVC version of “care”) suggested caution with how much I engage in conversation with these types, with emphasis on self-care, and a note of consideration on recognizing when it’s a losing situation that won’t resolve anything. That’s sort of what I have felt today. It’s hard when you’re so emotionally invested in this- this whole case is just reminding me so much of things I went through as a kid- to step back and consider these things. It just seems so obvious, I thought for sure if I presented the facts, some people would see what’s really going on, but that just isn’t the case with everyone. And that’s where the balance with waiting for all those things in people’s lives, comes in.

proudjezebel wrote:

Michaela wrote:

I think we have to let things play out in peoples’ lives: their input from others around them, their own thoughts, intuitions and observances, maturity, and the Holy Spirit’s leading.

I think this is spot-on. A friend of mine who actually cares for me deeply (not the TVC version of “care”) suggested caution with how much I engage in conversation with these types, with emphasis on self-care, and a note of consideration on recognizing when it’s a losing situation that won’t resolve anything….I thought for sure if I presented the facts, some people would see what’s really going on, but that just isn’t the case with everyone. And that’s where the balance with waiting for all those things in people’s lives, comes in.

I have learned that lesson too, some times the hard way.

Haitch wrote:

Is Ladybird (gasp) Kamilla?

No, she’s the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live.

Michaela wrote:

And the comp argument has failed in other places too: Duggar Family, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips. All involving sexual predation of young females.

That’s not a failure, that’s a feature.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

No, she’s the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live.

Well, isn’t that special.