A Look Back at TGC’s Chan/Driscoll/Harris Interview

"Everybody thinks you're Cuckoo for Coco Puffs.  I mean you've got a good church going on and you hit the eject button and now you're the international man of Foo-man-choo mystery and what is going on?  What are you thinking, and what's gonna happen to your church?"

Mark Driscoll (opening questions in video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p-SYMis0-wScreen Shot from Video

Who remembers this interview posted over on The Gospel Coalition website about four years ago? 

Dee and I watched it, and at the time we compared notes on how Mark Driscoll and Joshua Harris were challenging Francis Chan on his decision to step away from the pulpit and pursue a brand new ministry.  It's incredible how much things have changed since then.  Mark Driscoll and Joshua Harris have also walked away from the churches they pastored for so long.  We are wondering what God in His sovereignty has planned for these three men in the decades to come.   

In case you haven't seen the interview or would like to watch it again, here it is…

What's Next for Francis Chan? A Conversation with Mark Driscoll and Joshua Harris

We decided to highlight some of the questions and comments that really stood out to us.

Mark Driscoll:  "I don't care.  I know that's what we're supposed to talk about.  We're just gonna…"

Joshua Harris:  "It's the whole king dynamic…."

Mark Driscoll:  "Everybody thinks you're Cuckoo for Coco Puffs.  I mean you've got a good church going on and you hit the eject button and now you're the international man of Foo-man-choo mystery and what is going on?  What are you thinking, and what's gonna happen to your church?"

Francis Chan: " The church itself is gonna be fine…"

Mark Driscoll:  "Who's gonna preach?  Is he good?. . . What's the response of the people…backlash, anger betrayal?  It's comin', you just wait…"

Francis Chan:  "Let me just start something fresh with all of those convictions rather than constantly  tweaking something that I may have possibly taken in the wrong direction for a little while."

Mark Driscoll:  "How long do you think you'll be at the new work before discontentment or frustration sets in?  … Is this you know a discontentment in your soul that won't ever be satisfied?"

Joshua Harris:  "If everybody out there just said hey let me go start something new…we do need guys who are in an established church and go you know what maybe it's not all right, but here's how I can slowly over time you know build and redirect in certain ways and so on…"

Francis Chan:   "By leaving I'm actually helping the process…It's almost like by staying there…I wasn't helping the issue."

Mark Driscoll:  "Here would be my final question, and I'll just drop it and you can decide whether we ever talk again.  As you become more successful and there's more money, real estate, and book sales…what if God wants to sanctify you through not poverty but generosity, not suffering but blessing and what if it's not through simplicity but complexity and that's part of the sanctifying process…"

Joshua Harris:  "You're selling that many books… Praise God!"

Mark Driscoll (to Joshua Harris):  "You should have him (Chan) endorse your next book."

Francis Chan:  "So that's more of why I go to a third world country.  It's like let me get away from these speaking engagements and everything else just for a while and just look from the outside cause I just don't wanna be deceived. I don't want to fool myself, and  I've fooled myself in the past.  I know I've gotten arrogant; I know that there's pride that has just really destroyed me in many ways.  And I've seen signs of just uh grossness in my life and so I feel like if I pull away I'll see even more of that.  I just want to purify it for the next season in my life."

Chan's remarks stated just above appear to have left Driscoll absolutely stunned.  No doubt he is wondering why Chan would voluntarily walk away from his church to start a new ministry. 

Francis Chan, author of the extremely popular book Crazy Love published in 2008 (see website), experienced much tragedy in his young life as his Wiki article reveals.  (see below)

Chan was born in San Francisco to native Chinese parents…

Francis Chan's mother died giving birth to him. After Chan's father remarried, when Chan was about 7 years old, his stepmother died in a car accident when he was 9 years old. His father remarried again when he was 10. His father then died of cancer when Chan was 12 years old.

Francis Chan was then raised by his stepmother Josephine Chan along with his older sister Grace, older brother Paul and much younger half-sister, Gloria. He had family support from his father's younger sister and her husband, Marion and William Wong, along with a large extended family and church family.

He did not get along well with his father growing up, but says that his fear of his father has helped him understand a level of fear of God. He also stated he didn't understand the love of God well until he became a father himself.

Perhaps it was this bitter dose of reality (losing so many family members when he was young) that contributed to the passion Chan expresses in his message What Are You Living For?  In it, Chan uses a very effective rope illustration.  We hope you will take the time to listen to this important reminder from Francis Chan.

What are your thoughts about this interview featured by TGC four years ago? 

Comments

A Look Back at TGC’s Chan/Driscoll/Harris Interview — 181 Comments

  1. OMGosh first. I am hoping that the question of whether God sanctifies through financial bonanzas was tongue in cheek.

  2. God can sanctify through generosity. I have seen it in action. I have seen Christians, their courage, skill and hard work richly blessed by God, blessings poured out on them which they, in turn, poured out on others. (In other words, they weren’t pulling down their barns to build bigger ones.)

    And yet, they were also living quiet lives, not seeking out the spotlight.

  3. Driscoll: what’s gonna happen to your church?

    Whose church? This is not a quibble, when I hear this alarms go off.

    Driscol again: As you become more successful and there’s more money, real estate, and book sales

    Successful? ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

  4. I watched some Frances Chan videos from the “season” (blech) before his epiphany that prompted him to step down, they were inflicted on me and the rest of the men’s group at church (by the way, how I absolutely LOATHE men’s groups, I’d rather be in the presence of a group of women struggling with hormones in their first trimesters who feel like scratching my eyeballs out than hang with the bros, and if you don’t like my discussion of women in this manner, realize the wife and I have more children that Beall & Doug Phillips, I know of what I speak, just sayin) and they all seemed to be about “Look at me, aren’t I wonderful? I’m Frances Chan!” Creeped me out. Was so glad to hear the guy was able to see round himself and get away from it all. Thank God for him, may more have similar changes of heart, may his tribe increase and be blessed.

  5. Driscoll will always represent a marker in my life.

    Late last year I was speaking to someone on the phone about some used equipment for a wide area network, the price would have been pennies on the dollar. During the conversation I inquired what they were replacing it with or why they were selling. The answer was they were closing their doors. You guessed it, it was Mars Hill.

    I had recently left a church I’d attended for forty years and at the time I was unable to understand the lack of compassion I’d seen there. It was inexplicable. The conversation on network equipment began my research into the dark underside of churches.

    That evening I research Mars Hill, bounced of the Petry’s story, and eventually ended up here and that started my ability to process what I had seen. Mind you over previous decades I had consumed volumes on human behavior, management, and relationships but these were all from a business or clinical perspective. I was ill equipped to believe so many stories existed within the church, it was off my radar.

    In these past six months I’ve seen astonishing similarities in the stories and with my experience. Authoritarian and often youthful pastors, so much pride. Mark Driscoll is a landmark for me.

    Thanks to Dee and Deb and those who’ve told their story here.

  6. Law Prof wrote:

    how I absolutely LOATHE men’s groups,

    I’d love to hear your story sometime. Eagle had mentioned doing something about men’s ministry on his new web site but hasn’t got to it yet. (nag nag) I’ve always found men’s groups stale as relationships outside the formal meeting were non-existent.

    My idea has always been to go hiking or on a backpack trip and luckily I found some good friends along the way.

  7. Okay, sorry, one last comment before I hit the sack.

    Using Chan’s rope illustration, I find it more profound that it is true of those I come in contact with every day. I’m going to be banging into these people for an eternity and how I treat them now will have a big impact on that reality.

  8. Law Prof wrote:

    I watched some Frances Chan videos from the “season” (blech) before his epiphany that prompted him to step down, they were inflicted on me and the rest of the men’s group at church (by the way, how I absolutely LOATHE men’s groups)…. and they all seemed to be about “Look at me, aren’t I wonderful? I’m Frances Chan!” Creeped me out. Was so glad to hear the guy was able to see round himself and get away from it all. Thank God for him, may more have similar changes of heart, may his tribe increase and be blessed.

    Francis Chan is now pastoring at a mega church in Silicon Valley.

    I hear ‘ya about same sex groups. I despised being in women only groups at my former church and not being able to attend the fishing trips and all of the cool outdoorsy stuff the guys got to do.

  9. This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    Btw in London, to borrow from the Texas Country tune ” I wish they’d turn the heat on,”

  10. @ K.D.:

    Turn the heat on?!? I just checked the Beeb weather page, and it’s over 10° down there!

    Turn the air-con on, more like.

  11. K.D. wrote:

    Btw in London, to borrow from the Texas Country tune ” I wish they’d turn the heat on,”

    I was in London once in early June and just about froze to death. Not only was it cold it was also damp. No wonder those guys built an empire–plenty of volunteers to go work somewhere else just for a chance to warm up.

  12. Regarding pastoring a “Mega church”: Keep in mind that Mega means million, and the only thing mega about a Mega Church is the salary paid to the pastor and the salaries together paid to his minions.

  13. Nancy wrote:

    No wonder those guys built an empire–plenty of volunteers to go work somewhere else just for a chance to warm up.

    🙂

    No wonder it was called the Empire on which the sun never sets!

  14. K.D. wrote:

    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    How strange. That is exactly how I came to view them. Pewsitters are spectators wanting to be entertained.

  15. K.D. wrote:

    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    You are familiar with Vegas clubs I suppose?

  16. Law Prof wrote:

    women struggling with hormones in their first trimesters who feel like scratching my eyeballs and if you don’t like my discussion of women in this manner, realize the wife and I have more children that Beall & Doug Phillips

    If you dislike it all that much you can always give it up you know.

  17. Law Prof wrote:

    … by the way, how I absolutely LOATHE men’s groups…

    In this context, I kind of do too. But there have been exceptions.

    Between about 16 and 19, I was part of a Venture Scout unit (wikipedia.org/Venture_Scout#United_Kingdom if information required) – which was kind of a young men’s group. Wouldn’t have missed it for the world. The thing is, we did stuff together. White-water rafting, alpine mountaineering, walking across England, that kind of thing. And it wasn’t all pure amusement either; our particular unit was one of the few that were signed up to help maintain the local Scout campsite, which covered a large woodland area in the north Midlands and where we went every sixth weekend or so to do whatever needed doing. (Believe me: refereeing the annual District Cub Camp 5-a-side fitba’ tournament is a very thankless task.)

    That kind of set the tone. The thing I don’t like about church mens’ groups is that they’re not about anything. More often than not, they just meet for the sake of meeting. John Eldredge and his ilk have argued at length that men don’t like this kind of thing. Among very large groups of human beings (such as “men” and “women”) there are always going to be wide variations, exceptions, bell-curves, Poisson- distributions, Maxwell-Boltzmann distributions, you name it. But statistically, they’re probably right, and in my case it’s certainly true. I’d much rather get together to accomplish something.

    Unfortunately, I have to accept that this is wrong for a follower of Jesus. This from Matthew 28:

    Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

    Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you”.

    But his disciples had now finally understood his message, and they replied: “Lord, we know you’re only testing us there. You don’t really want us to do that, do you? Because DOING is just STRIVING, which is bad. What you really want us to do is simply to rest here, basking in your arms of love, and resting in and enjoying your gentle presence together”.

    Jesus was overjoyed when he heard this, because he knew that his disciples had finally understood the true Gospel of the Kingdom. And he took them in his arms and blessed them; and they’re still there even today. Which is why the church never happened.

    At least – I’m pretty sure that’s how Matthew ends.

  18. Ken wrote:

    No wonder it was called the Empire on which the sun never sets!

    … as opposed to the Habsburg empire, where some people used to say it’s an empire where the sun never rises.

    Actually, while the Habsburgs were remarkably stupid and shortsighted in some respects, they could also be quite wise in others. I’ve just never figured out if that was by design or by accident.

  19. Bill M wrote:

    In these past six months I’ve seen astonishing similarities in the stories and with my experience. Authoritarian and often youthful pastors, so much pride. Mark Driscoll is a landmark for me.

    I have watched this in the past year with the same fascination. I see the Driscoll drama as a symptom of the larger problem in the American Fundamentalism/evangelicalism camp: authoritarianism. The way some pastors abuse their authority and how their followers often blindly accept their self-serving ways looks an awful lot like the infamous Milgram experiment of the 1960’s. Dr. Bob Altemeyer wrote a book on his own studies in authoritarianism and it is a real eye-opener. You can read it free online:

    http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

    (It can be downloaded to kindle)
    Dr. Altemeyer pulls no punches when he addresses the religious right in America. This smarts a bit to me since that is where I have been for most of my life. But I don’t think he is all-out attacking. He is only showing the results of years of study in authoritarian-types and where they seem to gravitate.

  20. Bill M wrote:

    Authoritarian and often youthful pastors, so much pride.

    Piperjugend, Driscolljugend, Calvinjugend, now graduated from the brown shirt to the black tunic.

  21. Eric S wrote:

    Dr. Altemeyer pulls no punches when he addresses the religious right in America. This smarts a bit to me since that is where I have been for most of my life. But I don’t think he is all-out attacking. He is only showing the results of years of study in authoritarian-types and where they seem to gravitate.

    “EINS VOLK, EINS KIRCHE, EINS FUEHRER!”?

  22. @ Eric S:

    Thanks for the link to Dr. Altemeyer's book. I will enjoy reading it. This excerpt has already caught my attention:

    "Authoritarianism is something authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders cook up between themselves. It happens when the followers submit too much to the leaders, trust them too much, and give them too much leeway to do whatever they want–which often is something undemocratic, tyrannical and brutal."

  23. I listened to the interview last night so mulled it over before falling off to sleep.
    For me the money quote from Chan was: “I think I’m more messed up than even I realize”

    In my former church I had been in leadership positions for decades, it was only after leaving that I understood I was guilty of Christ’s accusation against the church at Ephesus. I had lost my first love.

    The organization of the local church is the means of expressions of Christian community but has the means become the end in it self? For example, take a couple that enjoys entertaining people for dinner so they buy a larger house to accommodate more people. Then they need to work harder and longer to pay for the house and have less time and energy for entertaining. They spend more time on cleaning and maintaining the house. They may even get to the point that they resent guests because they mess up their house.

    The house becomes a millstone around the couple’s neck. The joy is gone. Can it be said that much of the institutional church has become a millstone around our collective necks? Is this part of what Chan was feeling?

    Driscoll and Harris don’t seem to have an understanding of what is going on with Chan, they aren’t making a connection with what he is expressing. They were not asking the questions I’d ask why he was doing this. What thoughts or events precipitated it. At one point Chan makes some compelling statements and Driscoll’s response was labeling him a crazy dreamer. Dismissed, move on.

    I’d feature the interview as someone hooked on drugs trying to imagine a life of freedom from addiction and he is getting counseling from two local drug dealers.

    I wonder if Chan found what he is looking for, he was heavily invested in the institution, but kudos that he is searching. Chan: “I think I’m more messed up than even I realize”

  24. Still can’t figure out why some of these guys insist upon looking like the Coneheads in the old SNL skits way back in the day.

  25. Yes, both are quite acceptable! 🙂 I just can’t believe he was so racially insensitive. Of course, this is William Wallace II we’re talking about. I guess I thought his issues were limited to misogyny. Thought wrong. @ Deb:

  26. @ Bill M:

    Hi, Bill. I really appreciated your comment. And Chan’s “messed up” transparency.

    You mention being ‘guilty of Christ’s accusation against the church at Ephesus. I had lost my first love.’ I feel that is unnecessarily spiritualizing a very practical matter: you were simply worn out for understandable reasons; perhaps dulled by the weight of administration. (or at least that’s how I’m reading between the lines).

    your analogy about the couple and the big house, and the burden of it, is so accurate. it would wear anyone out.

    I observe the church I’ve been attending, and almost everything seems to be done in order to keep people busy with church. make every Sunday exciting. Drilling and hyping home groups more and more. Hyping Wednesday night whatevers. Holidays. All manner of things going on in summer to keep people so occupied with church.

    A big reason for all this: to keep people giving their money.

    The facility, the salaries, the new taupe carpet and espresso brown chairs, the new wood-like flooring, staff retreats, conferences…. it’s exhaustingly expensive.

    Getting & keeping market share of the church-going public is exhaustingly expensive.

    it would wear anyone out.

    I don’t see this as a sin issue, as just completely unfeasible.

  27. @ Deb:
    You’re welcome. I hope you find it as interesting as I did. The last half of the book is eye-opening!

  28. elastigirl wrote:

    Getting & keeping market share of the church-going public is exhaustingly expensive.
    it would wear anyone out.

    Amen to that! I happen to be one of those burn-outs.

  29. I think that Driscoll brought up a good point, but I disagree with where he is on the issue. He said that the gospel of poverty if just as bad/wrong as the gospel of prosperity as far as sanctification goes. Then he went on to talk about the roles of poverty, simplicity and suffering in sanctification. Well, Chan has no chance of plunging himself into actual poverty. But the idea that stuff can stand between man and God is certainly true. And complexity can quickly be distraction and chaos and can be highly destructive to the individual and whatever he thought to accomplish. And suffering forces the individual into places in his own spirit where he would not go otherwise and can be (not alway is but can be) spiritually beneficial.

    All of which makes me consider that what the Trinity experienced in the incarnation was precisely poverty and simplicity and suffering as lived out in the human life of Jesus. It is written that Jesus learned obedience through what he suffered. I don’t understand all the nuances of that ‘learned obedience’ bit, but it certainly says something about suffering. And Paul talked about to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings being conformed to his death.
    I don’t think this means some extreme asceticism or anything weird, but I do think that current christian thinking in this nation sounds too much like Driscoll and too little like Paul on this matter.

  30. K.D. wrote:

    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    Btw in London, to borrow from the Texas Country tune ” I wish they’d turn the heat on,”

    *waves from even closer* I’m in Rotherhithe tonight & I’ve had bare legs all day, just put jeans on now at 6.40.

  31. @ Beakerj:

    I’ve been in shorts all day. (And a shirt etc, obviously. Just to be clear.)

    I’m about to head into the garden, where temperatures remain pleasant, to finish off covering some frames with chicken-wire to keep the evil_cats off our raised flowerbeds.

  32. Muff Potter wrote:

    Still can’t figure out why some of these guys insist upon looking like the Coneheads in the old SNL skits way back in the day.

    🙂

  33. This isn’t as related to the topic at hand, but I saw this on TGC website:

    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2015/04/29/ugliness-repels-beauty-persuades/

    I’m actually going through a personal faith crisis. But every time I think about leaving the faith, I think about the beauty of Christian love and the uniqueness of Jesus and the Christian message. Although one of the things that really bothered me even when I was a strong Christian was most Christians’ lack of ability to love fully other Christians and especially nonbelievers and people who are different from them (and I include myself as lacking that ability). I always felt that if Christianity was true, such a love should be possible, even for imperfect humans. I think the miracle of that kind of love would be proof of Christianity’s validity. Just as John 13:35 says, “By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    But maybe we’re just setting ourselves up for failure. I also think that the pitfalls in the Christian life are so many. You have a pastor like Driscoll who is relatively sound in his theology and passionate about God and able to relate to and reach the people who would never voluntarily go to a regular church, and then after all of that, you would have him fall because of pride and worldliness. How many people have become discouraged because of that? How many have started questioning their faith because you start to realize that it’s not enough to believe the “right things” about God. It’s not enough to know God. And you start to realize that the very things taught in the Bible are actually the things that were used to hurt people and to propagate the authoritarianism and misogyny and all that other stuff that Driscoll spouted. You start to question the character of God. Because maybe He is the kind of God portrayed in the Bible…angry, tribal, violent, partial to certain people, conditional with His love.

    But actually my biggest problem currently is the fact that I don’t know if I trust the Bible. But that’s not really the point. I just wonder why God isn’t doing more to protect His people. And I include Driscoll in that. Why didn’t He protect Driscoll from the pitfalls that surrounded him? In the end, God just let him go his own way. Of course Driscoll is responsible for his own deeds, but God is all-powerful and all-knowing and humanity is prone to imperfection. You’d think if God cared He’d help a bit more.

  34. Bill M wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    cool outdoorsy stuff the guys

    There are a lot of women out there on the trail.

    I’m one of them!

  35. Elastigirl nailed it. It’s all about keeping the market share of the church-going public. That’s why the megas build satellite campuses within a couple of miles of another big church in affluent areas. So their members won’t have to drive five miles to the main campus. In Birmingham, Church of the Highlands just opened a new location in Alabaster because their Riverchase satellite was full of people from Alabaster. They’re building a church in Alexander City so the folks that go to their houses on Lake Martin wont have to skip church in the summer. Sorry other churches in Alabaster and Alex City, you better get it together if you want to compete with those million dollar sound systems and jumbotrons.

  36. Nancy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?
    You are familiar with Vegas clubs I suppose?

    I’ve been around the block in my youth….:)

  37. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    Turn the heat on?!? I just checked the Beeb weather page, and it’s over 10° down there!
    Turn the air-con on, more like.

    Nick, I am from a part of the world where 35C to 37C is normal…..June to Sept.

  38. K.D. wrote:

    I am from a part of the world where 35C to 37C is normal…..June to Sept.

    As you know, I – by contrast – am from a part of the world where 35-37° F</b is normal June to Sept… To be fair, I’d never cope with your summer temperatures either. At least you can put another layer on if it’s cold!

    Apart fae a’ the caud weather, I hope you’ve had a good time here!

  39. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    35-37° F</b is normal
    … obviously, that’s a hashtag error.

    95-100F are normal highs in Texas.
    And actually, we are enjoying to cool weather.
    Great Britain is one of the greatest places I have ever visited. Heck we are enjoying riding the ” tube” and reading the Evening Standard with the locals….

  40. @ Canna Berrong:

    “…That’s why the megas build satellite campuses within a couple of miles of another big church in affluent areas…. In Birmingham, Church of the Highlands just opened a new location…. Sorry other churches in Alabaster and Alex City, you better get it together if you want to compete with those million dollar sound systems and jumbotrons.”
    +++++++++

    now THAT is a sin-slime-snot issue all congealed in one.

  41. Michaela wrote:

    I’m one of them!

    Awesome. Ten years ago I packed around Rainier, 100 miles, and 50 thousand feet of total elevation gain and loss. I recall that more than half those we came across doing the same thing were small groups of women, most in their 50’s.

  42. Michaela wrote:

    Francis Chan is now pastoring at a mega church in Silicon Valley.

    Oh boy, didn’t know that, hope it wasn’t a relapse and that he’s not doing the prideful “Look at me” thing anymore.

  43. Canna Berrong wrote:

    Elastigirl nailed it. It’s all about keeping the market share of the church-going public. That’s why the megas build satellite campuses within a couple of miles of another big church in affluent areas. So their members won’t have to drive five miles to the main campus.

    Just like a Starbucks on every corner and a new Wal-Mart every few blocks.

  44. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Piperjugend, Driscolljugend, Calvinjugend

    Ah, the Hitler youth. I was always counseled to avoid Hitler analogies, even though many times they are apt. The present degree of hate now is no where near the same degree then, but that may be your point, it is a matter of degree.

    I don’t see Pipet, et al, getting that far. But there have been numerous comments made about the apparent need for so many to have someone rule over them, whether it be right or left. Apparently there is something ingrained in the human race that predisposes so many to setup another tyranny.

    Last night I watched Les Misérables and thought of the young folks depicted, France ~1835, wanting a revolution, yet another revolution. They would be in all likelihood, if they succeeded, the next despots. But wait! This time will be better!

  45. Joshua Harris: “You’re selling that many books… Praise God!”

    And $210 grand in Tithe money to Result Source.

  46. Muff Potter wrote:

    Still can’t figure out why some of these guys insist upon looking like the Coneheads in the old SNL skits way back in the day.

    “LET US CONSUME MASS QUANTITIES! IT WILL BE A LONG TIME BEFORE WE SEE ANOTHER SIX-PACK!”

  47. Nancy wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    women struggling with hormones in their first trimesters who feel like scratching my eyeballs and if you don’t like my discussion of women in this manner, realize the wife and I have more children that Beall & Doug Phillips
    If you dislike it all that much you can always give it up you know.

    Oh, the kid thing or the men’s group thing? I’ve already given up the men’s group thing, I’m a “done”. As for the pregnant wife thing, we’re getting a little old, I don’t think anymore coming, though you never know, Elizabeth, Sarah, etc.

  48. lydia wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    How strange. That is exactly how I came to view them. Pewsitters are spectators wanting to be entertained.

    And relieved of their money — again, just like Vegas.

  49. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Yes, well, testosterone isn’t exactly known as the “cuddly” hormone. Just sayin’.

    Oh gosh, no kidding, it’s why I don’t like hanging with the bros, testosterone seems to make them boring. I prefer the company of women, always have, always will. Must have looked strange whenever we had a get-together of guys and gals at our old neocal dude bro church, because I’d always go sit with the women, they were more interesting, at least the ones who hadn’t undergone neocal complementarian lobotomies. The guys must have thought I was nuts–but they dared not question my man creds, because not a one of the neocal guys I’ve ever known has produced as much progeny as the wife and I have.

  50. sigh wrote:

    Driscoll pulled out the Fu Manchu reference to an ethnically Chinese brother? Ack!

    Actually, I find it face-palming funny. Either the type of smack-talk you find among Hypermasculine types or Stupidity + Cluelessness.

    Though Fu Manchu IS one of the classic Pulp Villains; if I were Chan, I’d have probably responded with a pulp villain shtick. (Come to think of it, “William Wallace II” wouldn’t make a bad pulp villain himself…)

  51. Nancy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    This whole mega church preaching is like going to a Vegas nightclub act….isn’t it?

    You are familiar with Vegas clubs I suppose?

    Vaguely. I survived Las Pegasus UniCon, the first (and last) Brony con ever held in Vegas — the con organizers skipped to Mexico with all the money on the last day, leaving both celebrity guests and attendees holding the bag. Various Brony groups had to pass the hat to pay off everybody over the next few weeks. The con site was the Riviera — the one that just got shut down to expand the Vegas Convention Center.

    As an aside, I grew up driving Los Angeles traffic — NO WAY AM I EVER GOING TO DRIVE IN VEGAS EVER AGAIN!

  52. Laura wrote:

    Of course Driscoll is responsible for his own deeds, but God is all-powerful and all-knowing and humanity is prone to imperfection. You’d think if God cared He’d help a bit more.

    Oh, he is. I don’t want be trite, because I hate Christian triteness, Jesus was never trite, but He is helping, He’s helping by letting Driscoll fall on his face and perhaps deal with himself and his ugliness for once. Who’s to say God wasn’t screaming at Driscoll this whole time? I’ll bet He was, yet He’s not going to override our stupidity when we ignore Him. He didn’t make automatons. He’s helping by letting that mess that was MHC fall on its bloated face.

    A lot of ugliness is coming out and people are getting to see who the real lovers of God and people are and who are the poseurs and frauds. God helps, He just sometimes helps by letting us fall on our butts. I’m a father of many, I’ve learned to let my kids do this sometimes also, still learning.

  53. This is certainly a blast from the recent past! I remember watching this in horror. Sure, I had heard this stuff before as in “how we peasants cannot live without them in their lofty positions” but Josh and Mark were off the charts.

    Now, where are Josh and Mark’s today? Not presiding over their mega empires.

    Josh left the withering CLC and is seeking a bonafide education at a real accredited University.

    Mark is demon chasing with the likes of Robert Morris and trying to make a comeback by claiming he forgives all of US for what happened to him. (Even Janet Mefford?)

    (I had heard Chan was back in a mega. Many of these guys don’t start out seeking the money but they do become quite used to it and ministry is all they know how to do and a mega church pays the high salaries)

  54. Bill M wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I’m one of them!

    Awesome. Ten years ago I packed around Rainier, 100 miles, and 50 thousand feet of total elevation gain and loss. I recall that more than half those we came across doing the same thing were small groups of women, most in their 50’s.

    I’ve back-packed in South America through Patagonia (Chile). Great national park at the very tip of Chile called Torres del Paine. Backpackers and mountaineers from all over the world (Japan, Britain, Israel, you name it). I loved the hamburgers in Chile, the best I think I’ve ever had. I would go back there just for a hamburger!

  55. Lydia wrote:

    Mark is…trying to make a comeback by claiming he forgives all of US for what happened to him. (Even Janet Mefford?)

    Really? Hadn’t read or heard that he was claiming to forgive all of us. Wow, talk about delusion.

  56. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I think MD is a narssassist. I don’t understand how anyone can promote him. He needs to go live a quiet simple life where power is no temptation to him. He should enjoy his family while they are growing up and serve them.

  57. @ Bridget:
    I get so discouraged when I see other “leaders” continue to prop up and promote MD, especially when he continues to see himself as the true victim. Narcissist indeed.

  58. @ BeenThereDoneThat (inter alia):

    It has often been speculated that Driskle suffers from NPD.

    I am not competent to make a diagnosis as such even were I to interview him at length – it is his overt behaviour, coupled with his widely-marketed influence, that concerns me and not his neurochemistry. But certainly, the kind of person who always paints himself as the innocent victim even of the direct consequences of his own actions does resembles the chappie from Greek mythology who fell in love with his own reflection. Again, not behaviour that is acceptable in someone who presumes to be a teacher.

    Perhaps, though, there is an apology owed to Driskle. From everyone who idolised him. It’s not loyal, and it’s not loving.

  59. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    From the link:

    “I didn’t sleep…I was emotionally wrecked,” Driscoll said, explaining that one morning, angry protesters began throwing rocks at his home. – See more at: http://www.gospelherald.com/articles/55375/20150505/mark-driscoll-speaks-at-thrive-leadership-conference-offers-forgiveness-to-those-who-harmed-him.htm#sthash.N3kqtERr.dpuf

    Gee, no machete’s this time?

    I have no earthly idea why anyone would believe one single thing he says at this point. What more proof do folks need than what has transpired from him the last 8 years?

    Oh yeah, God told him to resign from MH. This guy takes the sociopathic cake!

  60. @ Lydia:
    Thank you for bringing MD’s “forgiveness” to our attention. I actually found the link on Janet Mefferd’s twitter feed after your comment.

    I followed a link from the original article to a blogger who actually heard Driscoll speak. A former member of Mars Hill left a comment there that beautifully refutes Driscoll’s claims. He also adds, “For the year or so before he resigned, Driscoll kept referring to himself as our spiritual father. I wish he’d act like one instead of being just another lying, hypocritical, deadbeat dad to his sheep.”

    http://pastorjamesmiller.com/2015/05/01/driscolls-re-emergence/#comment-7721

  61. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Categories

    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    Yes. You don’t want to miss this one.

    http://www.gospelherald.com/articles/55375/20150505/mark-driscoll-speaks-at-thrive-leadership-conference-offers-forgiveness-to-those-who-harmed-him.htm

    I just checked and Mark Driscoll still hasn’t repented before all of the sins he committed against Mars Hill elder Paul Petry, Paul’s wife Jonna, and their children: firing of Paul, defaming him, and excommunication and shunning of him and his family for opposing the un-Biblical consolidation of power by Driscoll.
    http://repentantpastor.com/confessions/letter-confession-bent-meyer-paul-petry/

    Driscoll has not repented and confessed before all Driscoll’s sins against Bent Meyer.

    And Driscoll’s church secretary, whom he fired. And countless others.

    For a male that perpetually talks about men “manning up” will Driscoll ever do just that?

  62. In other news, early exit polls are suggesting that the Tories are close to an overall majority and are likely to be in government, either by themselves, or as the largest partners in a coalition.

    If this is indeed the case, may God have mercy on us. It is likely to unleash a wave of savage cruelty, abuse and repression on the nation’s poor, the like of which has not been seen since Victorian times.

  63. Lydia wrote:

    Driscoll: “I didn’t sleep…I was emotionally wrecked,”

    Dramatic irony: situation of a drama that is understood by the audience but not grasped by the characters in the play

  64. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I recently read in the Economist (not exactly right wing) that the Tories were actually attracting low income voters in this election. If their aim is to make people suffer and inflict savage cruelty I am pretty sure they won’t be voted in again.

  65. I lost track of whoever said they hate mens’ groups. I absolutely despise women’s ministries at churches. I never seem to have anything in common with any of the women. I”m not married, I don’t have children, I don’t homeschool, and I”m not very political.

    On the other hand, I colead a women’s group at my former church, and it was such a lovely mix of discombobulated women, who all tended to talk at once and get off on crazy tangents. It took on a crazily wonderful life of its own. (Of course I colead it until I questioned the pastor on something, and then I was summarily dismissed.)

  66. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I am not competent to make a diagnosis as such even were I to interview him at length – it is his overt behaviour, coupled with his widely-marketed influence, that concerns me and not his neurochemistry.

    But see, that is part of the problem. No one is content to judge fruit anymore. We have to have some kind of expert opinion rooted in a person’s being. It is this simplistic, binary “good and bad” paradigm that is especially pernicious on American shores. How about, “Driscoll could be any number of things, but his actions have been those of a d0uchbag @$$hat, and I can’t support that.”

  67. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    How about, “Driscoll could be any number of things, but his actions have been those of a d0uchbag @$$hat, and I can’t support that.”

    Not to worry – Driskle is willing to forgive you for the hurt you’ve caused him.

    IMO anyone who gives this clown the time of day at this point needs to have their head examined. He seems rather oblivious and unrepentant about anything that has happened. I think at this point public ridicule is the best bet.

  68. roebuck wrote:

    He [Mark Driscoll] seems rather oblivious and unrepentant about anything that has happened. I think at this point public ridicule is the best bet.

    Spot on, Roebuck! Same to you, Dr. F.

  69. Bill M wrote:

    I had recently left a church I’d attended for forty years and at the time I was unable to understand the lack of compassion I’d seen there. It was inexplicable….That evening I research Mars Hill, bounced of the Petry’s story, and eventually ended up here and that started my ability to process what I had seen….I was ill equipped to believe so many stories existed within the church, it was off my radar. these past six months I’ve seen astonishing similarities in the stories and with my experience. Authoritarian and often youthful pastors, so much pride. Mark Driscoll is a landmark for me. Thanks to Dee and Deb and those who’ve told their story here.

    @Bill M,

    When I was excommunicated and shunned from my church (I’d discovered a new member who was placed in positions of authority and trust by the pastors/elders was a Megan’s List sex offender when I was doing research for a prosecutor, the pastors/elders defended him, wouldn’t tell members), I looked up excommunication and shunning and found the beautiful website written by Jonna Petry, wife of Paul Petry (the elder/attorney from Mars Hill who was fired/excommunicated and shunned along with his entire family for his saying that Driscoll’s consolidation of power was wrong). I too discovered a whole world of church abuses and a lack of love. I too am troubled by it all. I always knew it was wrong and not of God.
    And Jonna Petry’s website Joyful Exiles led me to The Wartburg Watch.

  70. @ Margaret:

    Abundant Life Christian Fellowship in Mountain View, CA shows Francis Chan as an elder since 2014. Wikipedia says he started there in September 2014.

  71. @ Laura:

    Laura, I saw that article by Ortlund's son. I would like to write about it at my blog. So much to tackle….not enough hours in the day.

    I'm on my Android now and restricted from writing a long post. You might want to read my story of a faith crisis. It might be beneficial to you Laura. I put so many people through hell in some ways. Check out Wondering Eagle and look at the link to the faith crisis. 🙂

  72. @ Laura:

    I went through a crisis of sorts and it was a really dark time for me. I am thinking that people’s crises look different from one person to the next. That said however there is something that goes on at least in this country about the whole love thing. I think we have it just backwards about love. The bible says that God is love, but the bible does not say that love is God. This God is love thing is not a math equation, like God equals love and therefore love equals God. Nothing is equal to God as we understand equal. Let me explain what I am trying to say.

    To say that God is love is to start with God and say that if you look at God you will see what love looks like. To start with love is entirely different. That is to say that I know what love looks like and then I will check out God to see if he is doing things that look to me like what I think love is. The trouble is we don’t understand either love or God. For example, God is love and also God is holy and in God these are not contradictory. God also is all-knowing and understands thing we do not understand. Something like what LawProf said about how he does with his kids. God has not committed himself to letting us tell him what to do or how to handle things and neither has he pledged to answer all our questions. None of that looks very loving if we have already made up our own definitions of love and expect God to do it our way.

    My own way out of my dark place included the realization that we pray ‘thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven’ and ‘thy’ is not ‘my.’ At some point we mostly have to ask ourselves if perhaps we really don’t like God very much, and that we mostly feel that way because he won’t do what we want him to. He acts like he thinks he is God, or something. That may not help you at all, but I had to come to grips with it.

  73. @ Laura:
    Laura, most people go through at least one faith crisis, but it sounds to me like you have a good grip on what the faith of Christianity is and what it looks like. The faith is very different from any particular system that has a Christian label. And that is where people like Driscoll go very far astray from the faith of Christianity and end up promoting a system that appeals to various people, and sometimes that system is very popular because it is easier to follow a system and be part of a group than it is to follow Jesus in a walk of faith.

    I’m not going to try to persuade you that the Bible is true. I will say that what many people say that the Bible teaches is not actually what the Bible says. I suppose there are many reasons for that, but it is just the way things are and have always been. That’s a really good reason to study for yourself and be fully persuaded by the Holy Spirit who will be your teacher.

    As for why God doesn’t step in to prevent evil, I do not know the answer to that. I don’t understand why Jesus had to suffer and die and why God did not intervene to prevent that. I do know that why God does what he does and doesn’t do what he doesn’t do is a huge problem, and it is the one that caused my faith crisis. At the end of it, though, I saw Jesus and what he did for me and his great love for me, despite my lack of faith and my personal failures. And I saw the people who looked like the Jesus that the Bible tells us about. As you pointed out, we are known by our love for one another.

  74. @ Laura:

    I resonate with a lot of what you’re saying. This is where I’m at in my journey:

    -God is not the Bible; the Bible is not God
    -God is very available without the institution (maybe even easier to find — that’s been my discovery)
    -there are so many beautiful, loving people everywhere, and our shared humanity is a pleasure

  75. @ Laura:
    Laura, before you give up the faith please rewatch that Francis Chan rope video and consider the results of any hasty decision. Sadly, during that very brief period of red rope we live in a fallen world. Fallen people run these churches and the enemy delights in tempting them with the belief that obscene wealth can actually “sanctify” (although I think that’s really just rationalization for knowingly profiteering off the name of Jesus). He delights in getting humans to question God based on the world we can see and touch, that he caused to fall. Please don’t give up on God because of this.

  76. @Laura, the other side of the rope will have love, joy and peace that surpass human understanding. You would not be struggling if the Holy Spirit did not reside within you!

  77. Nancy wrote:

    @ Margaret:
    Abundant Life Christian Fellowship in Mountain View, CA shows Francis Chan as an elder since 2014. Wikipedia says he started there in September 2014.

    Yes he is an elder, not a pastor. He speaks at many conferences, recently he spoke at Thrive2015 as did Mark Driscoll. What I have read about Francis Chan, he never received the mega salary of celebrity pastors. For me he demonstrates humility and honesty.

  78. “Here would be my final question, and I’ll just drop it and you can decide whether we ever talk again.  As you become more successful and there’s more money, real estate, and book sales…what if God wants to sanctify you through not poverty but generosity, not suffering but blessing and what if it’s not through simplicity but complexity and that’s part of the sanctifying process…”

    Well, I suppose we’ve known for a while what Driscoll’s approach to ministry was, but it’s still somewhat jarring to me to see him overtly proclaim it.

    “Poverty? Suffering? No way! Give me the book sales, the fame, and the cash!” – Said Jesus never

  79. @ Laura:
    Actually, Driscoll was not sound in his theology: he constantly touted “It’s all about Jesus” but I rarely heard him discuss God and never heard him discuss the Holy Spirit. Yes I attended Mars Hill a few times (due to family members who attended). His lack of honoring the trinity always made me think he was being used by Satan to deceive. His exegesis was completely lacking when he incorrectly portrayed “the peasant princess”, called Esther a whore, shamed Gideon, mistreated Song of Solomon, and twisted so many scriptures to his advantage. And to your, “Why didn’t God do more to protect His people?” I would kindly say, God IS present and sovereign. It is truly tragic what happened to my family due to the poor advice and teaching of Mars Hill and the staff. However, God is currently restoring the years the locusts have eaten. We have and are seeing God rebuild our family and we know that only God could have done so much in a relatively short period of time (I personally thought it would take 20 years). We appreciate God’s power and our family relationships more than ever before. Praise be to God!

  80. @ Eagle:

    Eagle,

    I do very much relate to your story.  I have had many of those feelings ever since my faith crisis began.  Before my faith crisis, I was serving as a leader of my church’s youth group and during college I attended John MacArthur’s church (I’m a few years out of college, just for reference).  I will say that I have a great deal of respect for John MacArthur.  As someone who has been a part of the church that he pastors, he is a man who lives out what he preaches, and the church is a great place.  I learned a lot there and have many good things to say about it.  That doesn’t necessarily mean I agree with everything he teaches.  But as a person and as a Christian, I respect him a lot, and I love the people of that church.

    But yes, after my crisis I went through the same extreme anger and feelings of betrayal.  I also dabbled in atheism and for a while believed that religion was a curse.  But I was going from one extreme to the other. And I think the “pendulum swing” (as I like to call it in my head) is a necessary process.  You always overcorrect before you reach a middle point.  That middle point is a sense of perspective.  But before I reached that point, I had gone from someone who would have staked my life on the message of the gospel being true to being someone who thought that everyone who believed in some kind of religion was deceiving themselves and that there was no God and that I had been a fool for living my life for something that doesn’t even exist.  And I also believed that religion was the root cause of a lot of bad things that happened in the world (like terrorism and misogyny). But I guess I found out that both extremes are too simplistic.  It’s a lie to say that religion is the root cause of all the bad things that happen in the world.  That ignores all the good (and there has been A LOT of it) that has come from the actions of religious people. But I also think that Christian answers are sometimes simplistic, too. Saying that everything that happens, even the bad things, are for God’s glory or it had some purpose. I think intellectually that makes sense, and it’s a pat answer.  But the reality is complex. Life is full of grays, it’s hardly ever black and white like Christians seem to want it to be.  

    Personally, I come from a somewhat fundamentalist background, and I still believe, even in the midst of my doubting, that if the Bible has errors or can’t really be trusted to be an accurate and historical account, then what it says is largely irrelevant.  So even though I do have problems with many things in the Bible (my issues generally revolve around several issues that I see as relating to the character of God, such as: 1) the fact that it seems like God, in the Old Testament and parts of the New testament, views women as second class, 2) God commanding the Israelites to kill all those nations and leave no one alive, 3) Eternal hell), my biggest problem is simply that I sometimes wonder if the writers of the scriptures were just writing whatever they thought or whatever was convenient and useful for them politically/socially and attributing those things to God. There also seem to be a considerable amount of contradictions and errors in the Bible. So people are always telling me to read my Bible more and pray and whatnot, but the Bible is what is causing problems for me.  And I do read it, but I don’t trust it. It oftentimes just gives me more questions. And I’m a bit wary of praying because I could just be making myself believe that I’m praying to someone when really all I’m doing is just talking to myself.

    But people have been kind to me in the midst of my doubting.  My church loved me and tried to help me, and my friends were worried but understanding. I did have some conflict with my best friend in particular, but I know it was only because she cared very deeply for me and my sudden 180 scared her (combined with my obsession with trying to make her see what I was seeing and pushing her to face what I saw as “the truth” and wanting to see what she made of it….Eagle, I think you and I have a similar tendency there haha. For a while that’s all I did and I know that upset her.  We had grown a lot together in college in faith and combined with the fact that sometimes I can be harsh and irreverent towards God whom she loves very much). I do think that sometimes Christians are afraid of questions.  I used to believe that if the Christian faith was true, it could stand up to inspection and inquiry.  After all this, though, I’m not so sure.  I realized that for so many years, people had been coming to me with questions or internally I had had questions, and I would just explain stuff away with answers that pastors and teachers had been providing me without really truly thinking about what I was saying.  I don’t think there’s anything wrong with pastors and teachers trying to give answers to questions, but I think I wasn’t coming to my convictions on my own.  I hadn’t struggled for those answers, so when the questions and doubts came, the answers didn’t work for me.

    I’m still very much obsessed with my questions, and struggling. But I would say that compared to the first 6 or 7 months after this whole thing began, I think I’m a bit calmer now. Kind of digging in for the long haul at this point.  I think some people think I will never have answers to the questions I need, or at least not satisfying ones. Maybe I won’t…But I think I should get to the bottom of them. Because there’s really no other options for me now. I had someone tell me a story of one of their friends who kept asking questions and then one day realized that if he kept asking questions he would lose his faith.  So he decided to stop asking questions in an effort to retain that faith.  But I think that’s not the best plan. I think the questions will always come back, no matter how much you try to stamp them down. But if you’re going to ask questions, go all the way, don’t just get tired and give up. Do a full investigation and find the truth, not just what you WISH is true.

    Sorry for the essay.

  81. @ Margaret Smoker:

    I like him too. But the church website shows him “on staff” whatever that means in that church. You seem to be saying that pastor is different from an elder on staff. I am not understanding that since I have seen the concept of a board of elders which were all are pastors of something or other and I have seen the presbyterian idea of elders differentiated between teaching elders and lay elders. I am thinking that Chan surely serves a teaching function–what else would it be? I am not cutting edge understanding here of elder vs elder vs elder. We have a different system where I go to church.

  82. @ Nancy:

    The term "elder" can be confusing. In some churches they are pastors who are employed. In others, they are unpaid leaders. Some preach and some don't. Then there are the churches that use the title 'pastor/elder'.

  83. @ Deb:

    Oh my. So ‘elder’ is about as precise as ‘deacon.’ Deacon being one level of ordained clergy with limitations in some denoms and not in others.

  84. Laura wrote:

    You have a pastor like Driscoll who is relatively sound in his theology

    You will have many disagreeing with this point.

    Driscoll is a wordsmith, ear tickler, and schmoozer in the pulpit. But his exegesis is appalling.

  85. Lydia wrote:

    I recently read in the Economist (not exactly right wing) that the Tories were actually attracting low income voters in this election. If their aim is to make people suffer and inflict savage cruelty I am pretty sure they won’t be voted in again.

    The Tories have certainly aimed to attract low income voters during the election. As to whether they succeeded, I haven’t seen any particular evidence for or against. Their Commons majority, oddly enough, proves a lot less than you might expect; the vagaries of the UK first-past-the-post system means that they got over half the seats with a 37% share of the votes cast. When you factor in the overall turnout, which was around 66%, the Conservative vote share actually drops to 24%. And even that’s not the end of the story, because you can never tell for certain just how much the waters have been muddied by tactical voting. For instance, it is possible that a fair proportion of Scottish conservative-voters actually voted SNP, to stop the local Labour candidate – arguably the best outcome for them since the SNP cannot in practice form a government (they only contest Scottish seats) and the Conservative candidate has absolutely no chance in most Scottish constituencies.

    My comment was ever-so-slightly tongue-in-cheek… I’m not sure the Tories actually set out to act from savage cruelty.

    However…

    I have come to believe that they truly do despise the poor and the unemployed. When a government keeps on insisting that its economic policy – without qualification – “is working”, then that government must also cultivate the belief that if anybody isn’t doing well, it must be their own fault. Growing evidence from the unemployed community throughout the last Parliament was of an escalating level of humiliation of those seeking, but unable to quickly obtain, work. Short of actual physical/sexual abuse, it mirrors everything you’ll read about on TWW from the worst cases of churches who abuse their members.

    What really, really concerns and angers me is that this abuse has become cultural, institutionalised, and above all self-perpetuating. The less the unemployed are given, the more they must beg for it; the more they are victimised, the less compassion they are given. It has come to resemble the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment (wikipedia.org/Stanford_prison_experiment), in which power quickly went to the heads of the randomly-chosen “guards”. In that instance, the result definitely was a vicious spiral of escalating cruelty.

    Rarely has it been more necessary for Christians to get hold of Isaiah 58…

    Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
    …If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk, and if you spend yourselves on behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness…

    It would be unfair (and frankly fatuous) of me to paint the Tories with horns and a pitchfork. The country is unlikely to disintegrate as a whole purely because they’re in government. But there is a significant minority – around a million – of long-term unemployed who have become politically expendable.

  86. @ Laura:
    Laura, I am in agreement with you about the questioning, and I believe that if you study the Bible for yourself you will answer many questions. But our translations are faulty. I have gained much confidence in my beliefs by using free online tools that give deeper meaning into the earliest copies of manuscripts that we have available. For instance, I found that Hebrews 13 does not say to obey our leaders as we think of “obey.” Women in 1 and 2 Timothy are leaders, and while I recognize a whole lot wrong with the charismatic side of the church as John Mac Arthur wrote in Charasmatic Chaos, it was the scriptures themselves that convinced me to ask Jesus for the Holy Spirit as in the New Testament. But even after seeing and experiencing an enormous amount of God over the years, I still occasionally wrestle with doubt. But I am not afraid to keep asking the questions. Sometimes I ask God to increase my faith again, and God does in a unique way for me, and then I find myself apologizing anew to Him for doubting. I can’t really explain it, but deep inside I have an understanding as to why God is not more clear like we want God to be. But God is not afraid of the questions!

  87. Nancy wrote:

    Oh my. So ‘elder’ is about as precise as ‘deacon.’

    Yes. It can be a paid or unpaid position, as well as both paid and unpaid elders in the one church.

  88. @ Bridget:

    So does the issue of paid vs unpaid determine the level of responsibility/authority, or does the ‘office’ of deacon or elder make that determination? I don’t mean extent of duties in some job description but rather level of hierarchical authority and position.

    In my former line of work quite a few physicians do volunteer work after retirement, and they are not ‘different’ in skill requirements for whatever they are trying to do and such compared to paid employees. Okay, that was not clear. Let me try again. What difference does it make if they are paid or volunteer, other than the money?

  89. The word “elder” in the Greek means literally what it says: one who is older. Exactly the same word is used for the “elder brother”, for instance, in the famous Prodigal Son parable. Besides which, in very many cultures around the world, the concept of “local elders”, “tribal elders”, “village elders” etc means just the same, and makes abundant sense: they are the people with the most experience.

    In a context where necessary technical skills are rapidly changing, the role of community elders is inevitably undermined. I can’t believe that’s not a big factor in the rise of inappropriately young “elders” in comms-savvy churches. But the skills required to love your neighbour and your enemy are the same regardless of who tops the twitter rankings. 20-something is too young to call yourself an elder in the church.

  90. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    To to be clear, I didn’t diagnose MD as having NPD. I have no qualifications nor desire to do that. Based on his actions and words, I do think he is a narcissist (correct spelling this time 🙂 ).

    I think, I believe, and my opinion are all interchangeable statements and are based on ‘my’ observations. They should never be considered an official or qualified fact. To me there is a huge difference when one says, “Bridget is an NPD” and “I think Bridget is an NPD.” One statement is written as fact and one is written as one’s personnel belief. Also, NPD is used as an official diagnosis. Narcissist is a more general term; someone who exhibits narcissistic tendencies.

  91. Bridget wrote:

    To to be clear, I didn’t diagnose MD as having NPD.

    I realise that – in fact, I think your comment appeared while I was still composing mine (yes, it really can take > 7 minutes to write a short comment, especially if I’m in the middle of other stuff as well!), so mine was doubly not intended as a riposte to you. We’re barking up very much the same hymn-tree, I think.

  92. I was astonished at what a permanent deacon does/can do in the RCC compared to what a deacon did in baptist churches back when. Whole different concept. But back when the baptists did not (where and when I was) use the word elder for anybody, and I have not run into it apart from knowing that the presbys did it. I feel like this is the twilight zone of the interface between newspeak and ESL.

    As as one of a certain generation I will say right now, the word elderly is an abomination and should be removed from the language. Blech!

  93. Nancy wrote:

    What difference does it make if they are paid or volunteer, other than the money?

    I’ve been under various kinds of elder systems, so I’ll try. Generally, the elders are supposed to be equals in authority though not in function necessarily. The rules/bylaws at the churches where I’ve been said that only a minority of the elder board can be paid staff. As a practical matter, however, the Senior Pastor’s wishes are almost always what rules the day, despite what is on paper. I’ve seen pretty functional elder boards comprised of mature men who were not easily swayed by a man, and I’ve seen dysfunctional elder boards that bend to the will of the Senior Pastor. I’ve even seen attempts to go around the bylaws by placing a paid staff member on the board which would have stacked the board. The thing is, once somebody’s paycheck is on the line, they fall into line, so that’s a very good reason for restricting the number of paid staff on the board.

    There are variations regarding how the elders are selected and affirmed. Sometimes they are nominated/vetted by the sitting board and affirmed by the congregation. Other times the congregation nominates and affirms them. I’m going to agree with JS on this point. The elder system does not guarantee success or failure but rather the character of the people involved does.

  94. Nancy wrote:

    What difference does it make if they are paid or volunteer, other than the money?

    FWIW, did understand what you said. In the church I was part of, we had paid and unpaid elders. There was not supposed to be any difference in their ‘level of authority.’ They were equal in decision making responsibilities. However, there was a difference in the amount of work and duties assigned to paid verses unpaid elders. As I think their should be in this type of structure.

    I mentioned this scenario in regards to Chan because it is possible that he is an unpaid elder. He could also have a salary, but a small one. It would make a difference when forming an opinion about what be said he was doing and what he appears to be doing. BTW, I know nothing about Chan. I haven’t listened to or read anything by him.

  95. @ Gram3:
    And still other times the sitting board nominates and affirms new elders without congregational input at all.

    Personally, I like Nick’s observations. The elders should be identified by the body as the most experienced and exemplary and wisest persons, not the most up-to-date nor the most popular nor the richest nor indeed the most educated.

  96. @ Nancy:

    If we viewed the word elder as Nick describes above, I wouldn’t mind the term at all. It would actually be an honor to be considered an elder.

    BTW, I am in agreement with Nick’s above assessment of the word.

  97. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    It would be unfair (and frankly fatuous) of me to paint the Tories with horns and a pitchfork. The country is unlikely to disintegrate as a whole purely because they’re in government. But there is a significant minority – around a million – of long-term unemployed who have become politically expendable.

    Are they going to dispose of them to the aliens?
    “The chemicals are Good…”

  98. Nancy wrote:

    What difference does it make if they are paid or volunteer, other than the money?

    As Gram3 stated, the money can make a difference if there is a senior pastor who makes the decision of who can be an elder. If the elder is salaried, then the elder’s decisions can be tied to pleasing the senior pastor (boss). My opinion as to why the senior pastor model is preferred is because it alleviates the need for senior pastors to function like the body is supposed to function. It eliminates the one anotherings the Church is called to walk in and allowes for expediencies per the top authoritie’s desires. Those have been my observations anyway.

  99. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Nick, I totally agree with you. No matter what the Tories say, their actions are making life much much harder for the poor, the sick & the vulnerable. I was made redundant under their austerity policies, & this could be the death knell for my profession. It doesn’t matter that every £ spent on youth work saves between £4 & £ infinite, cuts now mean temporarily balanced books but stacking up much higher-cost interventions in future years to come, for whoever is in power then to pay for.
    I’m having a huge socialist-sulkathon tonight & then tomorrow I will ‘nut up’ & get on with the task of trying to help the vulnerable. And what I’ll get for it is the privilege of never owning my own home & facing poverty in old age. Brilliant.

  100. @ Gram3:

    How is it that baptist churches took up this system? Did the idea just catch on or what? In the old system the ‘senior pastor’ was the power behind the preaching and teaching certainly but had enormous impact on everything, while any associate pastor or youth pastor or seniors/visitation pastor or such was answerable to the senior pastor. It was definitely hierarchical. And the board of deacons were a considerable power unit in certain aspects. I would think that authoritarian types would have liked the older system which gave the max power to the senior pastor, since that seems to be what you all are saying is actually going on. So why switch the terminology and methodology?

    And while we are at it, if they were going to change the position and impact of the deacons (which they did if I hear what you all are saying) why not follow the biblical example including that of Phillip and Stephen and let the deacons ‘preach.’ At St. L’s RCC church they had two permanent deacons, one of whom was a lawyer, who took turns with the priest/pastor in doing the homily, among other duties. Looks biblical to me as part of the larger role of deacon since there is no requirement for a person (the pastor or teaching elder) to actually be a theologian in order to preach.

    Or perhaps is the driving idea simply to be as different from the RCC as possible? That idea just occurred to me–don’t know what to think of that. But the reformed are using that word (reformed) a lot, and they don’t mean they just gave up drugs and alcohol and crime. Hmmm.

  101. Although I am cheered by the thought that poor, victimised MD will forgive me my iniquities against him. That was keeping ME up at night.

  102. Speaking of MD did you all note that look on his face when he talked directly to Chan? It looked like somebody who thought he had world champion status in the game of gotcha. I loved watching that look fade several times while Chan answered him. There is no comparison between the two men when it comes to what looks like attitude.

    We need a symbol based word system for ‘apparently’ and ‘looks like’ and ‘seems to be’ and such. It would save a lot of typing time since that apparently seems to look like that needs said every few words to stay out of trouble, more or less and so to speak and just in my opinion only.

  103. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:

    Nick, I totally agree with you.

    More words to live by.

    Just as well for him that I’m gentle and humble in heart…

    Best regards,
    God

  104. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But the skills required to love your neighbour and your enemy are the same regardless of who tops the twitter rankings. 20-something is too young to call yourself an elder in the church.

    In a church, not too long ago, was organized as the elders are the ordained pastors. Thus often one elder per local church. But even if more than one was assigned they all do the bidding of the “lone” elder. I believe the term elder should always be used in the plural.

    When a 30 year old gets assigned as the lone elder great strife can result, especially if there is little discernible wisdom or humility. So many, including people who should know better, equated charisma with leadership. Why is a good question.

  105. @ Laura:

    “So people are always telling me to read my Bible more and pray and whatnot, but the Bible is what is causing problems for me. And I do read it, but I don’t trust it. It oftentimes just gives me more questions”
    +++++++++++

    Hi, Laura. What about just reading Psalms? They’re lovely (at least the majority of them). I get so much out Psalm 23. So comforting, encouraging, peace-giving.

    For me, that’s all I read. Too many other parts of the bible have been used as instruments of manipulation and weapons to intimidate & subdue (all of it usually done with a sweet smile, of course).

    I also stick with Psalms (just a few of them, really) so I don’t have to keep hearing in my head the collective voice of those who have managed control of the mic of Christian culture.

    Indeed, he leads me beside still waters, & it’s totally great.

  106. Margaret wrote:

    Love this! Great article about Mark Driscoll’s speech at the Thrive 2015 conference

    I read the article, it would have been honorable for everyone to get up and leave but then if they had that integrity they likely would not have been there to listen to Driscoll to begin with.
    This conference is a good example why pastors have a poor reputation. I recall a comment by Bill Buckley that he would rather be governed by the first 50 names in the phone book than the faculty at Harvard. The same appears to hold true with pastors, especially if they attend BIG PASTOR CONFERENCES.

  107. Beakerj wrote:

    Although I am cheered by the thought that poor, victimised MD will forgive me my iniquities against him. That was keeping ME up at night.

    Me, too. I slept soundly last night for the first time in months. I’m SO glad to have that behind me.

  108. @ God:

    Are you sure about the people you hang out with? I mean that questionable bunch in the past , we can consider that water under the bridge. But this guy in Scotland, well, maybe you ought to think about it for the sake of your reputation. Not trying to tell you what to do of course, but….

  109. Some points of minor interest from the elections in Blighty, now that the UK-wide figures are all in.

    UKIP was, by votes, the third largest party with 12.6% of the vote. But it only got 1 seat. The Scottish Nationalist Party, by contrast, was the 5th largest party by vote share with 4.7%. But with 56 seats (out of 59 north of The_Border), they are the third largest party in Westminster. This is unprecedented; they’ve never had anywhere near that kind of presence there before.

    At the bottom of the table, the following might be of interest:
    Christian Party: 3205 votes UK-wide
    Christian Peoples Alliance: 3260
    The Official Monster Raving Loony Party: 3898

    Slightly disappointing from the Loony Party (“Vote for insanity – you know it makes sense”, who probably lost some votes to UKIP.

  110. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    That is confusing. Do you all know what the party is of the voter (assuming you all register voters by party) or do you just know what party they voted voted for? Or else, how do those figures make sense?

    Also, what is it that you are saying about how the unemployed may suffer under some bad policies that could get put into force? Fewer jobs? Unfair job preference? Roll back of unemployment benefits? Loss of access to health care? Imposition of or increase of fees for application for services? I don’t know about the rest of us over here, but basically I have no idea how you all function in this area.

  111. Bill M wrote:

    I listened to the interview last night so mulled it over before falling off to sleep.
    For me the money quote from Chan was: “I think I’m more messed up than even I realize”

    In my former church I had been in leadership positions for decades, it was only after leaving that I understood I was guilty of Christ’s accusation against the church at Ephesus. I had lost my first love.

    The organization of the local church is the means of expressions of Christian community but has the means become the end in it self? For example, take a couple that enjoys entertaining people for dinner so they buy a larger house to accommodate more people. Then they need to work harder and longer to pay for the house and have less time and energy for entertaining. They spend more time on cleaning and maintaining the house. They may even get to the point that they resent guests because they mess up their house.

    The house becomes a millstone around the couple’s neck. The joy is gone. Can it be said that much of the institutional church has become a millstone around our collective necks? Is this part of what Chan was feeling

    Nailed it.

  112. Beakerj wrote:

    I’m having a huge socialist-sulkathon tonight & then tomorrow I will ‘nut up’ & get on with the task of trying to help the vulnerable. And what I’ll get for it is the privilege of never owning my own home & facing poverty in old age. Brilliant.

    Not to worry Beakerj, we have our very own ‘Tories’ here in the States who are effectively dismantling all of the hard won gains we achieved under Franklin Roosevelt.
    Note to GBTC:
    This will be the last political no-no from Potter this thread.
    Honest Injun !

  113. elastigirl wrote:

    I also stick with Psalms (just a few of them, really) so I don’t have to keep hearing in my head the collective voice of those who have managed control of the mic of Christian culture.

    But stay away from the imprecatory Psalms…

  114. @ Nancy:

    We don’t know who voted for whom – we might reasonably assume the candidates all vote for themselves, for instance, but nobody’s vote is individually recorded. The ballot paper is simply a list of candidates in your constituency; you mark an X against one of them, fold the paper over, and put it in a locked box which is opened along with all the others at the official counting station after the polls have closed at 10pm. However: in every constituency, the votes are counted for each candidate and announced as part of the result by the Returning Officer of the constituency. So we know exactly how many people voted Conservative (11,334,920), Labour (9,344,328), SNP (1,454,436), Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol (8,419) *, Monster Raving Loony, or whoever. Also published is the total number of people registered to vote in the election (46,425,386) – that figure is also published for each constituency. So we know the turnout overall (around 66%) and for each constituency (in ours, it was around 75%, which isn’t bad these days).

    Does that answer Part 1 of your question? In either case, I’ll do Part 2 in a separate comment, as this is already quite long…

    * There really is such a “party” here, at least for the duration of this election.

  115. Nancy wrote:

    We need a symbol based word system for ‘apparently’ and ‘looks like’ and ‘seems to be’ and such. It would save a lot of typing time since that apparently seems to look like that needs said every few words to stay out of trouble, more or less and so to speak and just in my opinion only.

    🙂

  116. Nancy wrote:

    Also, what is it that you are saying about how the unemployed may suffer under some bad policies that could get put into force?

    OK… I’ll try to keep this brief.

    Sorry, no, can’t do it. Very long story. But it boils down to: the recent Coalition government put in place the presumption that everybody claiming out-of-work benefits was doing so NOT because they had been made redundant in a recession and couldn’t find work, but because they were a fat lazy thieving b***ard who had chosen a life on benefits so that they could indulge their passion for lounging around all day watching stolen televisions whilst sponging off good_people. And they set in place close-serried ranks of policies that ensured everybody claiming out-of-work benefits would be relentlessly humiliated and forced to submit to degrading and dehumanising micro-management.

    This is set to be ramped up now. So, the unemployed will be forced to report to “Job-centres” (which do not provide jobs, or anything like) not once a week, but every day. They will be increasingly forced to meet draconian and arbitrary “targets” that actually reduce their chances of getting work. The slightest deviation from these targets (including anything that shows intelligence, initiative or decision-making on their own behalf) will be punished with “sanctions” – that is, their benefits will be withdrawn for between four weeks and three years. This will, in many if not most cases, leave them penniless, starving and destitute. They can be forced to attend 8-week “placements” in which they must work 35 hours a week (unpaid), generally in demeaning and unskilled roles which are aimed at proving nothing more than that they can “turn up for work”. (In most cases, they have worked all their lives up until the recent recession.) These placements can be many miles away. In that case, they are expected to fund the travel costs out of their benefits (£72 a week); this will often force them to choose between travelling to the placement, and eating. If they choose to eat, they will immediately be sanctioned (their benefits will be stopped) because they are lazy and are not doing all they can to find work.

    The government has repeatedly claimed that sanctions are “not to punish people, but to help them” and that they are applied to a small minority of people as a last resort. In fact, 900,000 people were subject to benefit sanctions at some point during 2014. Because stopping people’s benefits reduces the welfare bill, staff are subject to heavy targets for numbers of people sanctioned, and they are applied at the drop of a hat and at the slightest excuse, even if that excuse is grotesquely contrived. (I’ve mentioned above about telling people not to attend a meeting and then sanctioning them for not attending it.)

    And that’s barely the tip of the iceberg of the problems facing the unemployed.

    For future reference… you really don’t want to get me started on this.

  117. I think there are several codes for opinion: ISTM (it seems to me), FWIW (for what its worth), etc. Some variations may need invention. I suggest MOI (me in french) but My Opinion Is.

  118. @ Laura:
    Laura,
    I just want to say that I not only understand what you are saying, I lived at least some of it too. When I was in the long (years long) process of questioning even the core foundations of my beliefs, I often found the advice given to me by believers to be well-meaning but ultimately unhelpful. I appreciated their care for me, but my doubts and frustration only grew as the advice they gave ended up weakening my faith even more. It can feel lonely.

    Ultimately my journey led me to non-belief and I find it a better fit now, but of course many come out of the doubting experience still believing as well. Please know you are not alone, and I applaud your willingness to dig into these difficult issues.

  119. Nancy wrote:

    Are you sure about the people you hang out with? I mean that questionable bunch in the past , we can consider that water under the bridge. But this guy in Scotland, well, maybe you ought to think about it for the sake of your reputation.

    Normally, as a matter of principle, I choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise. But in Nick’s case, I’m prepared to make an exception. 😉

    Here’s a really important thing to know about Me. The essence of deity is not the laws One establishes. It’s when, for whom, and why, One makes exceptions that really reveals One’s heart.

  120. @ An Attorney:

    Nah. That is too mundane. I am for symbols, maybe even characters like in asian languages. And preferably not more that two or three. One would stand for the statement “I maybe should not say this but I am going to anyhow and get away with it because I have used the special symbol which lets me do this.”

  121. Nancy wrote:

    One would stand for the statement “I maybe should not say this but I am going to anyhow and get away with it because I have used the special symbol which lets me do this.”

    That would be: 😉

  122. GBTC / Deebs – my last comment (system-allocated number 191216 at 3:48 pm) was sent due to a system error that occurred as a consequence of sin. Would you mind, as a part of your mandate to fill the earth, rule over it and subdue it, deleting said comment? Thanks…

    Best regards,
    God

  123. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    UKIP was, by votes, the third largest party with 12.6% of the vote. But it only got 1 seat…..
    The Official Monster Raving Loony Party: 3898
    Slightly disappointing from the Loony Party (“Vote for insanity – you know it makes sense”, who probably lost some votes to UKIP.

    When I was across the pond during the European elections last year, and saw the (now ex-) UKIP leader on the tele, I tfirst thought he was a comedian, a la Benny Hinn (or similar).
    Over here long ago, we had the Washington State OWL Party. (Out With Logic, On With Lunacy). They were, by votes, the third largest party, but only got 0 seats, unless you count a stool at Red Kelly’s bar. Their “success” and the great popularity of their platform in the official voters pamphlet eventually led, 10 years later, to a Supreme Court decision in “Munro v Socialist Worker’s Party”.
    http://electionlawblog.org/archives/013782.html

  124. God wrote:

    Normally, as a matter of principle, I choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

    Ah! That explains our friend in Scotland then! Thank you, God.

  125. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    * There really is such a “party” here, at least for the duration of this election.

    You should have been around for South Africa’s first democratic election in ’94. Of the minor parties that I remember, we had the Soccer Party and the KISS party (Keep it simple, stupid). I kid you not.

  126. God wrote:

    Here’s a really important thing to know about Me. The essence of deity is not the laws One establishes. It’s when, for whom, and why, One makes exceptions that really reveals One’s heart.

    Well, that is all high sounding and spiritual even, I guess, and don’t get me wrong I do admire that in You. But the thing is, this making exceptions does not exactly fit into our ideas of fairness and even handedness and blind justice and immutable laws. It seems too unpredictable for one thing. I mean how can we manage things when You want to make exceptions? By manage I don’t exactly mean we would be in charge, exactly, but we surely do need to set up systems and procedures and expect consistent results. How can that happen is you continue to interfere, well no I didn’t mean that–more like intrude, well no that is not it either. I am trying to talk about this and You don’t seem to be helping me here. Maybe we just need to talk about attitude. Far be it from me of course to question Your attitude, but really now lepers and prostitutes we maybe can understand but tax collectors? Tell me that was a scribal addition into the inerrant record or something. And now lately it just all makes You look like You are completely out of control and not even trying to present Yourself with a certain divine distance and dignity that one expects–well, not that I would ever be the one to say it of course, but really?

  127. @ Dave A A:

    It’s worth supplying a bit of info on the Official Monster Raving Loony Party (OMRLP).

    They’re a real Party, though they generally meet in a pub. Apparently, their constitution states that any of their candidates actually getting elected will be immediately expelled from the party. The point being that they exist for a combination of personal enjoyment and good-natured political satire. Exactly how much of each has occasionally caused tensions, and even splits, in the party (further proving it to be a real political party!). However, they rarely “come out of character”; when interviewed, they endeavour to come across as though they take themselves very seriously. Their current leader (Howling Lord Hope, real name Alan Hope) claimed, for instance, that he was not eccentric – rather, everyone else is.

    The Loony Party’s flagship policy for the recent election was that, if elected, it would not implement any of its policies as they were “all nonsense”. Others included:
     During engineering works, trains would be replaced by magic carpets
     “Monopoly” money would be legal tender for one day a year; but you’ll have to guess which day

    My favourite OMRLP policy in recent years has been its stated intention to ban greyhound racing to stop Britain going to the dogs.

    Surprisingly, some policies that first featured in OMRLP manifestos have subsequently become law – even if not necessarily for the reasons they were favoured by the OMRLP. These include:
     Lowering the voting age (then 21) to 18
     All-day pub opening
     Passports for pets

    Despite these victories, however, the OMRLP have never succeeded in rectifying the fact that Britain has only one Monopolies Commission, nor has any UK government privatised the weather.

    I hope this is helpful.

  128. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    One last off-topic moment (lest we be asked to move to Open Discussion) before reading the new post.
    In his ’76 Gubenatorial campaign, Red Kelly touched on an issue you (or was it Nice Kekbulb?) commented on earlier. He wrote:
    “1: It has become apparent that unemployment isn’t working, but
    2: Inflation is. I feel we have done a good job of getting inflation off dead center and back on the move again.
    3: (deleted because this is a Christian blog and God is actively commenting today)
    4: Because of the energy crisis and potential oil spill non-issues, we have been asked to think tanker. What I propose is the importation of Irish tinkers to fix leaking tankers. In this way, instead of thinking tankers we can thank tinkers.”
    To bring back onto topic– although I’m guilty of voting for the Owl Party candidate for Public Lands, Mark Driscoll was a wee laddy growing up south of Seattle, and too young to vote.

  129. Nancy wrote:

    Well, that is all high sounding

    Hard arguing with God, he comes back with that “where were you when I laid the foundations for the world” argument. Tough to one up that one.

  130. Bill M wrote:

    Hard arguing with God, he comes back with that “where were you when I laid the foundations for the world” argument. Tough to one up that one.

    He did say that, and he also said through the prophet “come now and let us reason together…” I think that the predominant picture we get both from scripture and from looking at how Jesus dealt with people and from personal experience is that He is more than willing to deal with whatever there is to deal with. I think that he has invited people into a kind of interaction where one does not have to pretend to be pious, because what is the use of that anyhow, God is not fooled.

    I also think that people tend to expect some smack down from God within the genre of who do you think you are to talk to me like that (like the comment to Job) , but that is not what I see as the dominant picture at all. For example the family of Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Look at how Jesus responded to criticism twice: tell my sister to help me (i.e. it is your responsibility here to do this and it has not been done) and if you had been here he would not have died (i.e. where were you when we needed you) and neither time did Jesus take personal offense or fail to interact constructively with the situation.

    Either one prays about everything, or one does not. Either one works on a relationship (between the self and God) to deal with the rough places or one lets the relationship wither and dry up. Listen to what people say, right here on TWW. They say I have this problem with God-with life-with understanding-with feeling-with people. How awful it would be to be utterly alone in dealing with all that when God himself is willing and wanting to listen and have a chance to solve some stuff. And thinking that one has to pretend with God leaves one about as alone as it gets.

  131. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    So we know exactly how many people voted Conservative (11,334,920), Labour (9,344,328), SNP (1,454,436), Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol (8,419) *, Monster Raving Loony, or whoever.

    No, honestly, you all have a Monster Raving Loony Party? A couple of gubernatorial elections ago, I was so infuriated with both major candidates, that I would have loved to vote MRL. I had to settle for The Rent Is Too D@M# High Party.

  132. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    That is just so awful, Nick. I don’t know what to say. The word abusive seems appropriate when applied to government policies in this case.

  133. Mark really used the phrase “man of Foo-man-choo mystery” when speaking to Francis? Unbelievable. Mark will stereotype people by their sex, race and ministry success, and wonder why people think he’s gone off the rails.

  134. Michaela wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:

    I watched some Frances Chan videos from the “season” (blech) before his epiphany that prompted him to step down, they were inflicted on me and the rest of the men’s group at church (by the way, how I absolutely LOATHE men’s groups)…. and they all seemed to be about “Look at me, aren’t I wonderful? I’m Frances Chan!” Creeped me out. Was so glad to hear the guy was able to see round himself and get away from it all. Thank God for him, may more have similar changes of heart, may his tribe increase and be blessed.

    Francis Chan is now pastoring at a mega church in Silicon Valley.

    I hear ‘ya about same sex groups. I despised being in women only groups at my former church and not being able to attend the fishing trips and all of the cool outdoorsy stuff the guys got to do.

    “Francis Chan is now pastoring a mega church in Silicon Valley.” So, his walking away did nothing.

  135. Mara wrote:

    Driscoll is a wordsmith, ear tickler, and schmoozer in the pulpit. But his exegesis is appalling.

    But “NOTHING CAN STOP THE SCHMOOZE!”

  136. Lydia wrote:

    Mark is demon chasing with the likes of Robert Morris and trying to make a comeback by claiming he forgives all of US for what happened to him. (Even Janet Mefford?)

    How magnanimous of Him.
    Praise His Holy Name (or get punched in the nose and thrown under the bus).
    F’er has an ego that just won’t quit.

  137. Yes, I remember this video quite well. Chan exposed those other clowns for what they were. Chan stepped away from his church because, in his own words, it was becoming too much about him. Those other clowns thought/think that’s what “church” is for….to make much of them. So obviously they couldn’t stand what he was doing, because it exposed them.

    This video was a turning point for me personally. It was not in this video, but I also heard that Chan ditched his life insurance a long time ago. This was when he was still the pastor at his church. He went to his elders and said “hey, if I die, you all will take care of my wife and kids, right?” they agreed, so he cancelled his life insurance. As he said “why do I get to spend money so that if I die, my wife and kids can have a cushy life…all the while people every day die because they don’t have enough to eat?” At the time I heard of this….I was (sadly) attending an Acts 29 “Church.” So, I mentioned this account to my “pastor.” His response…..he made a joke of it and laughed it off. I’ll say it again…these A29 clowns can’t stand to be confronted with the witness of a real pastor.

  138. @ Bob M:

    Cool….I’m so glad to meet someone who can read others’ minds and know what others have learned. Sigh…

    You have no idea what he’s done and what he’s learned.

    Now I know why I left this site months ago. Sorry I came back. I like what Dee and Deb started here, but it’s become a parody of itself. Anyone and everyone who is in a church is spawn of satan on this site. What a fraud.

  139. To whomever it was here who stated that Chan pastors a megachurch in Silicon Valley, that is a lie. Absolutely false. He’s started a church planting movement in the bay area. And he doesn’t lead any of them. He just wants to get them started. This is why he went to China, to study the house church movement there. Oh, and guess how much he’s made off of his wildly popular book, “Crazy Love.” The answer is zero. The book could have earned him $5 Million dollars, but he chose to sign the royalties over to a charitable trust.

    But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of the narrative of this site: any pastor you’ve ever heard of is a slimeball. Dee and Deb, there is a God in Heaven and you two will be held accountable for the narrative you’ve created on this site.

  140. Alan wrote:

    that is a lie.

    Hi Allen

    The commenter who wrote that probably believed it was true. For it to be a lie, the person writing that comment would know it was a lie. You need knowledge to lie.Are you sure that commenter did? Perhaps you know the motives of a person’s heart? I have a hard enough time understanding my own motives. You may be a lot further on than I am.

    If you read the entire comment thread, you will see that it was corrected by another commenter. The Deebs did not print that in the post. in fact, if you read a bit more carefully, you might see that post was written in a positive sense when it comes to Francis Chan. In fact if you truly cared about the issue, you might have Googled Francis Chan and our blog and you would have seen these two posts

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/09/09/david-platt-and-francis-chan-two-calvinistas-i-could-grow-to-love/

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/01/03/francis-chan-and-his-exodus-to-asia/

    Alan wrote:

    But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of the narrative of this site: any pastor you’ve ever heard of is a slimeball.

    Now, don’t let your narrative get in the way of facts, either. Also, I am sure that you have studied our site carefully to see that we feature Wade Burleson’s sermons in our Church. We really like him. I have also written another post that might help you to reconsider your perception of the facts.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/26/wade-burleson-and-pete-briscoe-two-pastors-who-really-get-it/

    Alan wrote:

    you two will be held accountable for the narrative you’ve created on this site.

    Which narrative? The one calling the church to account for their actions in covering up child sex abuse? Domestic abuse. Spiritual abuse?

    Alan, you, as well as me, need the grace of Jesus because we both are functional sinners while being positionally holy. I am well aware of a number of my sins and try to work on them. I also, in church, along with the rest of believers, pray forgiveness for sins unknown.

    As I stand before His throne one day, I will be so glad to have Jesus standing their beside me, holding my hand and loving me in spite of my sins and inadequacies.

    I look forward to seeing you in heaven one day.

  141. Alan wrote:

    Anyone and everyone who is in a church is spawn of satan on this site.

    Well, at least you spelled that right. The last guy said I was a daughter of Stan(sic). I told him that my father, Walter, was probably spinning in his grave since he raised me as his own.

    Alan, when you get into silly Christianese rhetoric, like spawn of Satan, all you end up achieving Being laughed off. No, I am not a spawn of Satan-bless your heart. I am a living, breathing, flawed follower of Jesus Christ. I am glad to know that you think you are doing better than me.

    Do you want to change people or do you want to have a good ol’ rant?

  142. Hahahahaha!!! I grew up in England, have just lived seven years in Las Vegas and am now in Texas… Gotta say I don’t miss English weather-just having rain out here in Texas was a culture shock. 😉 and yeah we are running air con already over here…I bet I’d die of frostbite in England these days anytime of year. Sorry, back to topic… Having experienced a mega church in/and Las Vegas, well, what someone else said. Yep.

    Nancy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:

    Btw in London, to borrow from the Texas Country tune ” I wish they’d turn the heat on,”

    I was in London once in early June and just about froze to death. Not only was it cold it was also damp. No wonder those guys built an empire–plenty of volunteers to go work somewhere else just for a chance to warm up.

  143. There’s someone who’s been watching a bit too much Sci fi channel me thinks. lol!

    dee wrote:

    Alan wrote:

    Anyone and everyone who is in a church is spawn of satan on this site.

    Well, at least you spelled that right. The last guy said I was a daughter of Stan(sic). I told him that my father, Walter, was probably spinning in his grave since he raised me as his own.

    Alan, when you get into silly Christianese rhetoric, like spawn of Satan, all you end up achieving Being laughed off. No, I am not a spawn of Satan-bless your heart. I am a living, breathing, flawed follower of Jesus Christ. I am glad to know that you think you are doing better than me.

    Do you want to change people or do you want to have a good ol’ rant?

  144. Just read a few more of Alan’s comments. If my joke is hurtful please delete. I think the point though is that people can be angry about bad stuff in churches and see a progression and talk about it and still be part of the Church and love it. I have an issue or two with David Platt’s Radical coming from a missionary perspective and I don’t agree with Wade or Francis Chan in everything but those guys are brothers of mine even when we disagree on this or that. I’m glad for places like this where we can discuss from all different perspectives. I know a bit about A29 from experience and even there there are brothers and sisters. Maybe people have preconceived ideas about what TWW and other bloggers are about but maybe the issue is a lot of people online may actually really ready love God’s people and that’s why they talk and write. Not the narrative TGC or GTY and others would promote about blogging.

    Melody wrote:

    There’s someone who’s been watching a bit too much Sci fi channel me thinks. lol!

    dee wrote:

    Alan wrote:

    Anyone and everyone who is in a church is spawn of satan on this site.

    Well, at least you spelled that right. The last guy said I was a daughter of Stan(sic). I told him that my father, Walter, was probably spinning in his grave since he raised me as his own.

    Alan, when you get into silly Christianese rhetoric, like spawn of Satan, all you end up achieving Being laughed off. No, I am not a spawn of Satan-bless your heart. I am a living, breathing, flawed follower of Jesus Christ. I am glad to know that you think you are doing better than me.

    Do you want to change people or do you want to have a good ol’ rant?

  145. Dee and Deb (and everyone else), I’ve come here to apologize for my comments from earlier this week. They were wrong and out of line and carried a bitter, sinful attitude with them. I’m sorry and I’m asking you to please forgive me.

  146. Alan wrote:

    To whomever it was here who stated that Chan pastors a megachurch in Silicon Valley, that is a lie….”

    But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of the narrative of this site: any pastor you’ve ever heard of is a slimeball. Dee and Deb, there is a God in Heaven and you two will be held accountable for the narrative you’ve created on this site.

    @Alan,

    I live in California and I know families that go to the mega church that Francis Chan is now pastoring. That church’s website in Silicon Valley lists him as being on staff. Do some digging and fact-checking.

  147. alan wrote:

    Dee and Deb (and everyone else), I’ve come here to apologize for my comments from earlier this week. They were wrong and out of line and carried a bitter, sinful attitude with them. I’m sorry and I’m asking you to please forgive me.

    Apology accepted, Alan. You also didn’t check your facts, which would have confirmed what I posted as both I and others here did. I have friends that go to that church and I double-checked the website and Francis Chan is on staff.

  148. dee wrote:

    Alan wrote:

    that is a lie.

    Hi Allen

    The commenter who wrote that probably believed it was true. For it to be a lie, the person writing that comment would know it was a lie. You need knowledge to lie.Are you sure that commenter did?”

    @Dee,

    The information I posted is accurate information. Francis Chan is pastoring at a mega church in Silicon Valley; I have friends who go there (Abundant Life). Prior to posting my comment, I also double-checked the church’s website, as did Nancy who posts here, and Francis Chan is on staff and an elder at that church.

    Even Francis Chan would dispute Alan’s posts.