"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -Martin Luther King, Jr. link
I returned home from our lake retreat late Saturday night plumb worn out. I plopped in front of my computer and looked at Twitter. Amy Smith (@watchkeep) and Julie Anne Smith (@DefendtheSheep) were discussing that( @brandonsmith85) blocked them even though they did not know him. Feeling a bit left out, I checked and I, too, was blocked! Yay! I am part of a club. So, I started a hashtag #WhoIsBrandonSmith.
What does blocking mean to you? To me it means I said something that annoyed him. So, I decided to learn who "him" is. And boy did we ever discover some fascinating things! Here are some things to consider as you try to understand what in the world is going on out there. Always ask questions.
1. Guess who was behind our being blocked at CBMW?
I have always wanted to know that.
2. He is an editor for Lifeway, Zondervan and the Criswell Journal.
3. He is 29 years old (born 9/1985)
4. He was an Associated Editor for CBMW 2012-2014 and is an editor for Zondervan.
5. He received his BA from Dallas Baptist University in 2012. Which means he went straight from his BA to blocking people on Twitter due to *hateful interaction."Throughout our exchange, he continued to use the word *hate.*
6. Why won't he give examples of his claims that we are hateful, called him an abuser, and said he was ungodly?
Now whenever anyone uses strong language like hate, I begin to wonder. What in the world did all of us say that was hateful? I asked him to give me an example. Don't you think that he should give me an example so that I can apologize if I did so? In fact on this blog we do not make claims that we do not link to. Do you know he never once linked to any proof for his claims? He did not respond to my appeal for evidence. Is this an example of good editing?
7. His communication style could use some tweaking if he does not want to be misunderstood.
The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse has been helpful in getting me to see tactics that religious people use to intimidate others. So, when one asks "Why am I being blocked?" It is responded to in a way to make you a problem for asking. "Because you are hateful." When you ask for an example, it is deflected and we are back to the hate question. You are now the problem, not him. Not good.
8. The BFF repeats the same mantra without any proof.
Griffin Gulledge bless his heart, even adds words like *wicked* (I so love that musical), *spewing your misdirected hatred* and then commands us *Enough!* All this without one link.
9. So, what do these guys want to do for a living?
They want to be pastors.
I am a student a Beeson Divinity school, a son, a brother, a friend, a sales associate and a number of other things. Also, I’m training to be a pastor. I’ve been given the privilege to preach to youth groups, churches, para-church organizations, school assemblies and enjoy doing that. Preaching the Bible is my favorite thing to do. I have a passion to see those who are far from God encounter the truth of the gospel and put their trust in Jesus. My greatest hope for those in the church is for them to see the gospel’s relevance for all of life.
He has been the Director of Content and Communications for CityView Church in Ft. Worth, Texas. He is now a pastoral candidate at that church.
10. What kind of a church is CityView Church and how does Brandon reflect that culture?
I am going to answer that question in the next post to immediately follow this one today. I am doing two posts because they can be understood together and as stand alone posts. CityView must think that Brandon is an excellent communicator since they would not have put him in that position. Right?
11. Is this a hit piece?
Not at all. I quoted directly from Brandon. I even had screen shots. I have said nothing about him being hateful, spewing whatever, nor have I commanded him to stop. If he believes that I am hateful and will not tell me why, he should rectify that. Now, if you don't agree with this style of communication, you might not want to attend his church or work for him as an assistant. Or you might love his directness and jump on his bandwagon.
I also want our readers to understand how we discover things on the Internet. I would never have discovered a concerning membership agreement if Brandon Smith had not blocked me.
Take away points on Twitter
- If you speak in public, be prepared to have your thoughts discussed in public.
- If someone uses a pejorative, ask him/her for examples. If they don't give them, then one cannot believe what is being said.
- Expect to have people look into why you have blocked them.
- And if you have blocked them, be aware that they can still read your tweets so long as they are not password protected.
- Expect people to do some research into your affiliations if you go public.
- People will try to figure out why you block them. It could bring uncomfortable questions as I am about to demonstrate
Please add your thoughts to this Twitter exchange. What else do you see that I am missing?
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First, for once? š
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“So, I started a hashtag #WhoIsBrandonSmith”
You crack me up!!
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I don’t recall you ever mentioning Brandon Smith. Then again, I’m not on Twitter so maybe I missed something.
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“I also want our readers to understand how we discover things on the Internet. I would never have discovered a concerning membership agreement if Brandon Smith had not blocked me.”
I take it this will be covered in the next post?
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9. So, what do these guys want to do for a living?
They want to be pastors”
Many already are pastors who are very similar in their communication and “editing” strategies. It is why more and more of us are becoming “dones”.
There is nothing like a preemptive social media block to really put people in their place. You were being disciplined and did not even know it! :o) Maybe at their age and in their world, covert social media blocking is the ultimate insult?
I am just happy you finally found out. :o)
Actually what I think is happening is that TWW is, metaphorically speaking, a bit too good at shining light on some idols.
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Sigh. Sorry this happened to you Deebs and others. I wish people would really start thinking about what they do and say online. The internet never forgets. Remember that. Hold it forthright in your mind at all times. The internet never forgets. And everyone shows up on search engines. So when you post something, get into that fight with the stranger, make the wild and inflammatory accusation, remember no matter how noble you think your cause is; the internet never forgets. And now think a few years down the road, how will it look when you get googled? I wish that on no one. The internet never forgets.
And now this post will be linking both those gentlemen and their goals of being pastors to read about this particular instance in their ministry history.
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@ Tina:
Balloons and band are on their way!
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@ Hester:
I don’t think i ever have. I had no idea who he was but he blocked me which made me feel all warm and fuzzy to be grouped with AmySmith and JA!
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NJ wrote:
I am writing it right now. Give me about 2 hours to get it up. Today is a twofer.
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Lydia wrote:
Bless his very young heart!
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Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Don’t be. It is the best thing that could happen and you will understand it when you read the next post. I get a giggle out of these things.
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@ dee:
Oh goody, you’re giving someone a case of the Mondays! ^_^
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This was a weird sequence of events. I can recall only one other time where I was preemptively blocked and that was when the Prestonwood sex abuse case was coming to light and Amy Smith was telling her story. When I looked up the pastors’ names on Twitter, I found I was already blocked. I had never even heard of their names before, so I can only surmise that they searched through Amy’s followers to find me.
We get called a lot of hateful things when we challenge church leaders (or wannabes). In this particular case, it started when I posted and commented about Tweets coming from CBMW and Owen Strachan (http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/05/02/cbmw-and-owen-strachan-tweets-that-the-church-is-better-at-handling-domestic-violence-than-our-secular-culture/)
who was trying to convince Twitterworld about how they protect women:
from CBMW:
::::cough, cough:::::::
From Owen Strachan:
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dee wrote:
Thank you for taking it on, Dee. This public behavior needs to be seen, not buried in Twitter purgatory.
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This sounds an awful lot like what Rachel Held Evans and Jonathan Merritt have been doing lately as well! Folks like Stephanie Drury and Julie McMahon have been blocked by these folks for so-called “hateful” bullying. It’s nothing but fishy. How could raising questions about spiritual abuse ever qualify as “bullying?” From what I’ve noticed, RHE and Merritt just get defensive.
Twitter is a strange, strange medium. It’s kind of like the epitome of what will happen in a debate during an undergrad philosophy class–one side will accuse the other of being like Hitler, and any hope for constructive dialogue goes out the window! Only in this case with Twitter, all it takes is for someone to say “You’re being hateful” and use that as a trump card, despite basic logic.
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POP-U-LAR! It’s all about pop-u-lar! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4EtbRJw14E
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With millennials often called digital natives, it’s no wonder they have no idea how to interact with older, non-native generations. Entitlement, emotional fragility, feelings over virtues and other, ahem, character traits contribute to the millennial stereotype. Yes, I know that not every millennial fits all or any of these tags, but we can see it in the news every day. For example, most of us in the “over 40” crowd have little to no regard for an article like this: http://mashable.com/2014/06/27/social-media-passive-aggressive/ or this: http://dirkhoag.com/2014/02/how-to-use-twitter-subretweet-etiquette-820
Horrors! Sub-tweeting! How dastardly. Puhleez. So, blocking your participation in their twittersphere is really tough medicine (snort).
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This is all the pastors today under age 35. It is all about them. They do not ” get it.”
I saw this coming with the preacher boys ( teenage males who wanted to be ministers) I taught in high school. I tried to explain, being a pastor is a calling….
There is no call from God. It is a job. They are Christian, might as well be a minister.
On another note…..Nick, my wife and I have been in Edinbugh the last few days. One of the greatest places on earth…..however….How on earth do you live here? We literally have frozen to death…..( headed south toward London tomorrow, and the temp looks, well, just a tiny bit better.)
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I’m a little curious why this young pup thinks anyone would give a wooden nickel about his opinion?
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@ Billy McMahon:
Indeed. I thik Twitter is like high school – as in, all of the very worst aspects of HS. And kinda dumb, on top of it all.
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@ Billy McMahon:
Checked out your site briefly – do you mean Episcopalians?
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
That cracked me up, Herr Doktor. š
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K.D. wrote:
I’m about 50 miles from London & it’s been lovely & sunny here today š
*waves from nearby*
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K.D. wrote:
Ceud mille failte gu Alba!
Oddly enough, we’ve all been enjoying the balmy temperatures.
On the other hand, once the thermometer climbs much above 20Ā°C, I’m struggling. Scotland’s ideal for me, really. My son takes after me in that regard!
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
P.S. Like Beaks, I have given you a wave (since you are possibly within 30 miles as I write).
As cities go, I must admit to having a soft spot for both Edinburgh and Glasgow. But as a lover of wild places, the further north you go, the better Scotland gets. The landscape in Sutherland is the equal of anywhere in the Solar System.
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I was preemptively blocked by TGC, when I’d only posted parody tweets, & was following the Deebs & Julie Anne. š I spent some time trying to find out WHY they blocked me, since I was actually trying to get to know Thabiti Anyibwile, since he lives in the are I’ll (hopefully soon) be moving to his area.
Eagle stepped up & has been helping ever since. š
However, since TGC blocked me, I did spend far more time critiquing them than I would have otherwise!
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K.D. wrote:
Failte aside (which, incidentally, was quite sincerely meant, KD!) – the above quote is perhaps the simplest and most profound explanation ever of everything wrong with the YRR trope.
“Minister” is, in those circles, a sexy and sought-after job, like “Life Coach” and “Consultant” – to which it is almost exactly equivalent.
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As you know, Dee, I find blocking by pastors and Christian organizations inexplicable. If they don’t want to read my tweets they can mute me on twitter, but to block me form reading their tweets means they’ve judged me to be unworthy of the gospel. I’ve got news for them: so are they. We all are. That’s why it’s called grace.
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My opinion:
Talking with a person one on one- the best!
Talking on the phone- its doable.
Emailing/mail- better then blogging in the sense of getting your message clear.
Blogging/comments- good but one can misconstrue another’s views/feelings sometimes if not careful, but at least you can correct if necessary
Twitter- oh what can I say……the matrix.
Dee and Deb stick to blogging – a much better forum. Twitter will forever be the “Land of no Return” š
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My father used to pressure me to become a lawyer for no other reason than “That’s where the big money is”. I wonder if the same holds true for pastor wannabes?
And why should anyone take Twitter seriously? How much detail beyond “I made a poopie!” can you go into in 140 characters? And who would want to be texted constantly about making poopie after poopie after poopie?
If you ever see something in a newsfeed about some guy in Orange County losing it and going into a frenzy of smashing smartphones, you’ll know who it is.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Because He’s On SOCIAL MEDIA(TM)!
(You’re All Supposed to be Impressed!)
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Read the rest of Gulledge’s tweets to see what a godly man he is. It’s mostly rants against those with differing viewpoints. I can’t wrap my head around why so many confuse “acting godly” with “acting like an a-hole.” Honestly, I would be embarrassed. However, these sort of rants are celebrated these days by many of those in the ministry. I would hope that no church would hire such a person…ever. It appears this guy’s another one of those who likes to be in charge and boss people around, and what do you know? He found a religious system that celebrates that.
Someone should contact Timothy George over at Beeson Divinity and see if Gulledge’s tweets make them proud. Serious suggestion.
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“How much detail beyond āI made a poopie!ā can you go into in 140 characters? And who would want to be texted constantly about making poopie after poopie after poopie?”
Ok I am beyond laughing at this point. :0
A little info. though HUG goes a LONGGGGGG way, even if it is a poopie.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ha! That is exactly how a friend of mine described most of twitter. “Look at me!”
However, if you are into the study of psychographics…is there a better place to get a quick and very scary look?
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I need to know something about Twitter. Was it not a form of social media to get out quick important info. so that one would have to write out a long text? or am I missing something? I just have not been up to date on this form of media. What is the big deal about it?
I like Pinterest because I can at least do something with it. Its practical.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I think where Twitter is good is for sharing or reading news links of people who have similar views as yours. If you’re on friendly terms with the person you’re tweeting with, tweeting with them can be good or fun.
The problems comes in if you get into a fight or debate with someone. It’s very difficult to debate certain subjects on Twitter with the 140 limit, especially if it’s a very volatile, controversial topic.
There are work arounds to the 140, limit, though. There are third party applications that allow you to go longer than 140 letters.
Other social media can be abused, too.
Like Facebook. People used to post photos of their sandwiches everyday on there, “Here’s my lunch!!” There are the political posters, whose every other post is slamming whatever political party they don’t like. The debbie downers whose every post is complaining about their job, or how terrible their life is.
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excuse me ….one would NOT have to write out a long text?
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Faith wrote:
One of my favourite english-language phrases of all time contains only 83 – including punctuation. It is attributed (perhaps inaccurately) to Muhammed Ali, when the great man was asked why he refused the draft for Vietnam.
I ain’t got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. Ain’t no Viet Cong ever call me n****er.
Here’s another good one, from Will S:
Brevity is the soul of wit.
Perhaps some Professional Religion Coaches need to be educated about life in the real world, where people don’t listen to you for 40 minutes at a time without reply.
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excuse me ….one would NOT have to write out a long text?@ Daisy:
@ Daisy:
Yeah I forgot about Facebook, not on there either. I little narcissistic for my taste unless you have it for family and close friend purposes. “Hey look at my Jimmy playing in the park, or wherever it may be – toilet, bed, with the dog, eating mac and cheese; with Grandma, Uncle Jim, dentist, etc. “
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@ Faith:
Yeah, I believe Twitter is called a “micro blogging” site.
It’s meant to send out quick, short messages, but, if you get into a debate with a political or religious opponent, it gets difficult to argue those sorts of topics within a 140 letter limit.
So, there are a few third party applications Twitter people can sign up for that allow them to send tweets that are longer than 140 letters.
Other reasons why some gravitate towards Twitter:
Some people like to talk to their favorite movie star or rock band. Well, Facebook limits the number of followers a rock band/movie star can have (at least last time I checked on this), but Twitter allows everyone to have unlimited number of followers.
I’m not sure about this, but I think in the early days, Twitter was designed to be easily used on cell phones, but not Facebook. That is one reason why lots of folks use Twitter in place of or addition to Facebook. Facebook later had to roll out a mobile version of their site.
Young people prefer Twitter to Facebook because their grandmothers, uncles, mothers, and fathers are not on Twitter.
They feel they can express themselves more freely on Twitter, knowing that grandma can’t see what they’re reading, unless they advertise their Twitter account to granny and give her a link.
You can sometimes get breaking news faster on Twitter than you can with TV news or with Yahoo News or Google news. That’s one reason it’s worth it to get a Twitter account and follow ABC, CNN, BBC, and other news sites.
If you follow people on Twitter who have similar views as yours, they will sometimes tweet links to very interesting articles you may have never otherwise have noticed before.
Or, a friend you follow in Twitter may retweet a link to a breaking news story, and you see it there before you hear about it on TV.
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Faith wrote:
Yeah, I didn’t want to say anything in my last post, as I did not want to offend any parents or grandparents, however.
Some parents are so notorious for “over-sharing” photos or updates about their children or pregnancies so often (especially on Facebook), that some sites sprang up where visitors can complain about this phenomenon, such as “STFU Parents” site.
Not everyone is thrilled to see photos or posts about someone’s baby or toddler every five minutes on social media, day after day after day.
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Daisy
Ahhh…. I now see the positives if used correctly. Too quick for me; by the time i do my first tweet I am sure those who twitter will be light years ahead of me- “Live Long and Prosper”
My kids: Skype, Vine and music blogs/ Xbox live. My son likes to interact with those from other countries and has numerous friends from England. He will peruse sites that gravitate towards his interest; none of my kids twitter – ages 14-21.
Dee and Deb, It must be exhausting to deal with this on a continual basis. I could not do it. To the pastors that twitter…. is there not a grandma you could go see in the hospital or a hand of comfort to those who are struggling with abuse instead of focusing on bloggers? Inquiring minds want to know …….
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Oh. Were we supposed to be listening? That must be where I went wrong. It is so difficult to multi-task listening and thinking at the same time. I much prefer thinking.
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#DoesBrandSmiththinkJohnPiperis3rdmemberoftrinity?
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@ Albuquerque Blue:
You don’t enough flair Albuquerque Blue. What do you think about someone who has the bare minimum? š
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@ Amy Smith:
Amy!!! Looking forward to meeting you in DC. I need to email you back. I’d love to attend a couple of sessions. š
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Young Baptist wanna-be’s acting like jerks?! No way! Lol, I’m pretty sure they’re taught Jerk 101 at Baptist colleges now. It’s beyond horrible. It’s like they’re made into twice the sons of hell….
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@ XianJaneway:
When you move out here XJaneway you and I can pop up one Sunday morning half way through the service at Capital Hill Baptist and nail a list of 95 questions to the door about Mark Dever, 9 Marks and CJ Mahaney covering up child abuse. Plus I always had the fancy to ask…if I get in trouble at my church can I run and hide there? š
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K.D. wrote:
I don’t really even know what a “pastor” is, the NT doesn’t quite define it. Shows up once in the singular, a few other times in plural, but I do know there’s no indication that it’s the single leader of any group of Christians because such a role does not appear to exist at all in the NT era, such a role would seem to be very much at variance with all that is taught in the NT, both from the mouth of Jesus and the pens of the apostles. Not like I want to gratuitously fire any shots across your bough, because I very much suspect we’re on the same team and coming generally from the same paradigm, KD, but every one of us has a calling, no calling better or superior to the other, leaders are older folk (elders) who’ve gotten past the delusion of their own greatness and simply want to serve, doing the lowliest stuff, leading by Godly example.
Prophets may be on the stage from time-to-time, teachers (plural, NOT singular) might be on the stage from time to time–though probably not much of that, frankly, and we ought to drag both groups straight off it as soon as they make it about them rather than God, but you know your leaders because they never try to lead by compulsiona nd never think they’d have the right to, because that would be putting themselves in the place of Jesus and in between Jesus and others who are trying to follow the only true Leader, they do the dirtiest jobs, they clean the toilets, mow the lawns, they put themselves out there to be killed if need be to serve the Lord, they don’t draw attention to their “callings” because they know every believer has an equal calling, and that’s to serve the Lord however He tells them to. They are the last, the lowest.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
It’s called delusional, magical thinking.
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Eagle wrote:
Hahahahhahaha!! You can dress as a Stormtrooper, & I’ll go in an Uhura dress. š #Modesty
Seriously, tho, I’d rather meet those covenant life people you’ve been singing the praises of. <3
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MOM!!!! Did you look at the history of CityView church? Its from Matt Chandler’s The Village šÆ
Looks like Brandon Smith is going to be body slammed by you twice in the near future? š
*****
In early 2005, the vision for CityView Church was formed. From the onset, CityView operated on the assumption that there were many āspiritually deadā church-goers in the Metroplex that belonged to churchesā¦but did not belong to Jesusā¦that were following missions created by menā¦but missing the mission of Jesus.
Weāve always sought to be a catalyst for re-awakening the Churchās passion for Jesus and His missionā¦and thereby reach a population that needs Jesus and His message.
In a turn of God-made events, Rick White (CityView’s Lead Pastor) connected with Matt Chandler, lead pastor of The Village Church in Highland Village, TX. The circumstances of the meeting were a testament to Godās sovereignty in CityViewās future (a story we tell in more depth as a part of “CityView in 60”).
In late 2005, the Villageās elders officially commissioned CityView Church to be a plant out of The Village Church. On Easter Sunday 2006, after months of planning and core group meetings, CityView Church had its first worship service at Freedom Elementary in the Keller ISD.
Since then, CityView has grown, begun contributing to other church plants (along with partnering with and sending two churches) and has purchased an existing church facility on 10 acres of land. Ultimately, our hope is to always be a Gospel-focused, life-giving, multiplying church for our neighborhood, city and world. And to that end, we press on…
http://www.cityviewchurch.net/
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Daisy wrote:
XD yes.
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Law Prof wrote:
Actually, both have 1,000+ followers so somebody must care. If you think of all the people they’ve blocked, then that might be a high percentage of those that are left. š
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BTW….here is the latest post I wrote.
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/the-story-of-jacob-deshazer-and-mitsuo-fuchida-forgiveness-amidst-the-ashes-of-world-war-ii/
Its about the story of Jacob DeShazer and Mitsuo Fuchida during World War II. DeShazer participated in the Doolittle Raid and Fuchida led the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941. They were able to reconcile and practice forgiveness, and became close friends. It leads me to ask one question….if Mitsuo Fuchida and Jacob DeShazer can reconcile can’t Ealge and Andrew White who was a Care Group Leader at Redeemer Arlington reconcile and find peace?
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Cassie – it’s Sarah wrote:
I have to agree. I stopped being surprised a bit ago.
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If these up and coming pastor wannabees (the Brandons and Griffins of this world) are any indication, I wager the “nones” and “dones” groups will magnify exponentially…
– signed “Done in DFW”
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J Pow wrote:
In their mindset, defending Truth is godly, and as long as you are defending Truth, then any problem the target of your criticism has must be because they can’t handle the Truth. Since you don’t accept the Truth, you already have one foot out of the door anyways, and giving you the little extra push is just doing you a favor.
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LOL I got Twitter-blocked by a certain young man who is prominent in the Quiverfull movement. I considered it a badge of honor š
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@ Law Prof:
That is pretty much my take, too. And to take it further in my situation, I absolutely see no reason to go and listen to the same guy week after week, year after year. I find that stifling. And yes, it is a “job” but they often forget who pays them. When you think about it– what a gig! You can become the authority to the very people who are to voluntarily pay you to be their authority. Mindboggling.
However, I do enjoy listening to different scholars on different theological issues. But they are different in many ways than what I think of as a typical insitutional pastor. They tend to make us think and want to dig deeper.
Ever since the “sermon” has been promoted as the most important event of your week, I have become increasingly jaded. That might have to do with the fact I grew up pretty much around 15 min sermons and pastors who were one of us. They were certainly not the center of attention or the “authority”.
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@ Eagle:
The Village has far reaching tentacles in the DFW area… I hope the Deebs second blog today touches on this connection
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@ NJ:
Teaser:
http://tinyurl.com/qzxtzkv
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Law Prof wrote:
You and me both, Law Prof. Anyone can call themselves a ‘pastor’ and set up shop. There are thousands of small congregations out there embracing any and all quasi-Christian beliefs (and heresies) due to the ego of their ‘pastor’. Thousands of churches all believing something different. What a pathetic state of affairs.
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@ Melissa:
The Village sounds like a spiritual version of a STD! šÆ
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@ Eagle:
Eagle!! You win best quote of the decade! If this were the morning, and I was having my ritual coffee, I’da spit it out just now! LOL
Spiritually Transmitted Disease….yes
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Melissa wrote:
š
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@ Law Prof:
Such good stuff there Law Prof. Yes these older gentlemen of the NT were servants and humble; and even if Peter and Barnabas got a little out of line they quickly repented of it.
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@ Melissa:
These young whippersnappers need to be put on bended knee by “grandpa humble” and given a little swat.
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@ Lydia:
Oh yes – the week after week looking up at a pastor with bits of drool coming down over your chin – either from falling asleep or because one is soooo enthralled with his pulpit expertise.
Do you know how many sermons of the same stuff I have listened to over the years? Probably you too.
Do you know how many fights I had with my husband and kids before we left for Sunday morning church? Hear, hear……has anyone else here experienced the Sunday morning drama that would make for a great soap opera?
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@ Melissa:
yes I would say that was hilarious!
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J Pow wrote:
Faith wrote:
Or quickly got a very public smack down for it.
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@ XianJaneway:
You can join in the annual TWW soiree in the DC area.
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Really, all I could do was laugh at reading this. It’s similar to sticking your fingers in your ears and singing, “la,la,la,la…” How absurd!
(I’m not laughing with Smith & Gulledge.)
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Faith wrote:
Gosh yes, and then invariably put on the fakest smile you ever saw as soon as we exited the van and pretending we were good righteous people. I wonder now if the reason for an inordinate number of Sunday morning, at-home-preparing-for-church or driving-on-the-way-to-church family dust ups and rages was because we all knew we were going to be abused by sitting on a metal chair quietly for 45 to 90 minutes attempting to listen earnestly to people who in all rights probably should’ve been run out of the building at the crack of a whip. And in all honesty I probably haven’t heard one hour of truly beneficial words from a pulpit or stage in the last decade. It was so exhausting, such a price to pay for having a bit of social time. We can get our fellowship in places other than the machine, listening to delusion, abusive little boys with major daddy issues like young master Smith.
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Lydia wrote:
Like a friend of mine, Missouri Synod Lutheran pastor going way back. Old hippie, longish graying hair, absolutely knows it’s not about him at all, a kindly, bumbling uncle type. Leads by example, knows he’s sees through a glass, darkly like the rest of his congregation. Just one of the people. Loves Jesus.
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@ Amy Smith:
Of course, I had to go watch that video again and again.
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@ Law Prof:
Hey, Law Prof. This is totally off topic, but I don’t know how else to share this with you. Google “we can’t stop having babies” and watch the YouTube video by Andrea and Chad Chapman. It’s been a hit with parents of large families. You were one of the persons I thought of when I saw it.
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@ Law Prof:
Maybe it was subconscious definitely. I do not think I remember any sermon in particular.
My husband was just listening to this song as I was online- timely
Sunday Morning by The Bolshoi https://youtu.be/Tt2uPZSyk0A
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I will, glad to watch a video and get a good laugh, wife and I need one. I must have talked here about having a ginormous family. I didn’t remember doing that (our family total is up in double digits, we got any of the Gospel Gliteratti that I know of beat, even got Doug Phillips & family beat (though our kids have never quite been able to all get their hair to look like political candidates like the Phillips clan, and they beat us hands down in the sartorial category).
By the way, D & D, is there a way of getting an email out to another person here if they want to reach us/us reach them without breaking our anonymity?
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
OK, watched it, funny.
But…their house is far too nice. Where’s the graffiti on the walls? On the new couch? The holes in the doors and walls? Where are the shards of glass? The pulverized wedding gifts? The blood curdling screams? (and the kids get pretty loud as well)
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Law Prof wrote:
Your wife doesn’t have a handful of “nanny’s in waiting” to answer her every whim then?
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@ Law Prof:
I hear ya. It’s a good thing we live in a double-wide. My husband is a builder. I told him he can build us a nicer home once the kids are grown. š But, I’m really going to miss all these little people when they’re gone.
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Bridget wrote:
You mean the Handmaids OfDoug?
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This is disappointing. I had previously heard good things about CityView Church. It’s really close to Harvest Christian Academy and I understand there is some cross over there. I wonder if their leadership knows about this pre-emptive hate fest? There’s a reason for his being a pastoral “candidate” despite the fact that he is qualified to teach at a seminary. Wise churches want time to assess the character of a man before allowing them to shepherd. Perhaps Brandon could use this opportunity to consider whether sheperherding is really right for him. Perhaps he should just focus on the communications side of church management. He’d still be serving the Kingdom. I’m concerned at this point in his life he may have a little too much “angry young prophet” in him. Far from requiring compassion, PR departments tend to operate more functionally with only the veneer of it.
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Eagle wrote:
Eagle, I really like you a lot, but I shall not thank you for making me read that. A turn of God-made events? What does that mean, anyway? Testament to God’s sovereignty? Who let them in on that?
Eagle wrote:
There are so many fun place for my mind to go in just that one sentence. The entire blurb sounds like an odd fusion of Driscoll and Owen (not John.)
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Bridget wrote:
My goodness, we have nothing whatsoever other than the Lord, each other and some hastily-whispered prayers. We take turns getting up in the middle of the night to change diapers, pick screaming toddlers off the floor when they’ve tumbled out of beds, clean up the vomit and other vile liquids off beds (flu swept through my family recently, last week one day I was up all night cleaning up fluids that would make a home health care nurse cringe, then off to work on pure caffeine high).
I think of my wife, who unilaterally decided to leave an up-and-comer, wonderkind, high tech career with a major corp (after a career at a major uni as a hard sciences academic), put her hard-earned academic accolades in the proverbial dustbin, and become stay-at-home, homeschooling mommy (and don’t think her professor parents thought too highly of that move!), and I wonder how she stays sane. No family within 1000 miles, no church friends to help either except for a few fellow cast offs since we stood up to the abusers at the neocal church. How she keeps it all going without smothering me and the rest of the gang with a pillow is beyond me–it’s the love of Jesus, no other explanation.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Me too. And I’m not a builder per se, but I have some construction ability in my blood and I do know how to wire up a fixture, stud up a wall, and cope a corner (though my sheetrock work leaves something to be desired). We’re just holding out for a decent house til they’re all out. But then again, that will be in our 60s. I’ll miss them also, but of course, God willing, there will always be grandkids to visit and wreak havoc.
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LT wrote:
Gosh, having served on the board of a university communications committee, having studied communications a bit, taught courses in both communications and negotiation theory, I dare say “communications” might be Young Master Smith’s weakest spot.
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Faith wrote:
I was thinking about this a couple weeks ago reading a blog comment discussion– a pastor kept commanding other commenters to stop commenting and A: Reread his comments B Read the Bible or C Examine yourself to see if you’re really if you’re really in the faith.
I thought– Who’s tending your flock?
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Billy McMahon wrote:
Add Peter Rollins to that list. He blocked me for this comment:
Peter Rollins wrote: “…categorizing people via their symptoms is a reductionist and violent act that allows for dehumanization and lack of empathy.”
My response: On the other hand, calling out the abusive (even violent) behaviour of a narcissist is not “shaming”, it is protective. It is both humane and empathetic to want to keep people safe from this type of abuse.
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@ Living Liminal:
Does he object to the DSM? That’s pretty much it’s entire purpose. Actually you could extend this to all medical diagnoses, not just mental/psychological ones. Is it now “reductionist and violent” to categorize people as diabetic if they have all the symptoms of diabetes?
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“Or you might love his directness and jump on his bandwagon.”
I don’t see directness but rather deflection. However, I do think that they are interested in maintaining the bandwagon effect and the illusion of inevitability which has served them well. As long as they were the dominant voice in social media, then all was well. They were clearly early-adopters of social media, but now that they can no longer dominate the internet, the Bad Bloggirls must be excluded from the Boys Clubhouse.
This is not even junior high. This is kindergarten. The boys need to get a real job with a real boss who demands real results, and who might hire someone else if they don’t or for some other reason. These Precious Theo-snowflakes need to grow up into mature men instead of brittle and fragile little insecure boys. Or at least plausibly fake it.
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Gram3 wrote:
No, this is not grade school, either. My four year old boy shows more genuine compassion when he unilaterally offers a piece of his cake to his two year old brother than all of these infants-posing-as-men together.
They very much need to find a real boss, real job, real customers, real results scenario, but what about their nature and practice would lead even the most optimistic observer to think they could hold such a real job and ever serve real customers who have not been emotionally and spiritually blackmailed into thinking their services are adequate? The reason they seek these insular environments is because they could not possibly cut it in the real world.
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Hester wrote:
That’s neither the point nor the reason for a hairtrigger blocker. It is because Mr. Rollins is obviously a very scared little man who cannot handle dissenting opinions, they terrify him.
Leads me to a tangential point: this sickness is most certainly not confined to the neocalvinists, the particular theological choice is merely a prop: emergent, neocal, fundamentalist authoritarian, arminian holiness, KJV-only, whatever. It’s not about the theology, it’s about the pathology.
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So Brandon puts himself on the map with an accusation of hate. He starts with an accusing spirit, not with one of love but one with condemnation.
Nice job Brandon, thanks for letting me know something about who you are.
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@ Bill M:
“Hate” and “wicked” are huge words to throw around. I say a lot of strong things, a lot of people on the net say a lot of strong things, but very few people other than profoundly disturbed characters throw that kind of speech around.
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Bill M wrote:
Ouch. But yeah.
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From the OP:
6. Why won’t he give examples of his claims that we are hateful, called him an abuser, and said he was ungodly?
Because he doesn’t know what “hateful” or “abuse” or “ungodly” means, even though he works as an editor? Because he doesn’t have the evidence, but it sounds good to his Twitter buds? Because he was speaking to an older woman as he would his mother like Paul said to do? Because he is the male speaker and you are the female inquirer? Because he is in way over his kephale and he knows it but hopes you don’t realize it?
That’s a start.
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@ Faith:
“Do you know how many sermons of the same stuff I have listened to over the years? Probably you too.
Do you know how many fights I had with my husband and kids before we left for Sunday morning church? Hear, hearā¦ā¦has anyone else here experienced the Sunday morning drama that would make for a great soap opera?”
+++++++++++++++++++++
Ha! So true, everything. Oh, Sunday morning, pretense galore. Then we’re sitting there, doing the church thing, & my husband has the nerve to sort of put his arm around me (resting on the back of my chair, at least)
And something has happened…. ‘pastors’ & christian speakers don’t have anything interesting to say anymore. inspiration has just… lifted. it’s gone. Going through the motions, saying the right things. it’s all just flat, dead. it’s been the same wherever I go, for years.
I’m concluding that God’s as bored & sick of it as I am.
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I now have to check Twitter to see if I’ve been blocked by Brandon Smith…
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Tim wrote:
Amen, Tim!!
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dee wrote:
This is a place you wrote about B Smith, search this page for his name, which you mentioned in passing: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/20/jared-wilson-a-gospel-coalition-blogger-lauds-patriarch-doug-wilson-then-apologizes/
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Hester wrote:
I don’t know about that, but it is apparently wildly unacceptable to talk about his friend’s narcissistic “defences”…!
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Law Prof wrote:
That certainly seems to be the case!
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@ LT:
My experience with this crowd leans toward Brandon being top candidate after the last two posts at TWW. He has been persecuted by haters. And the Holy Mother CityChurch has been defiled by less than adiring blog posts.
Whatever you think is reasonable and common sense, turn it around. Then you will understand how they think. For example, an elder can get by with child molestation because we all know there are never ANY witnesses. That is basically the result of their ridiculous hermeneutic.
We are not dealing with thinkers but man child tyrants.
Aren’t you glad our Founders disdained the church/state?
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Law Prof wrote:
Yes.
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@ Law Prof:
True, but it is a logical consequence of what he said. Which would make him a hypocrite if he has ever acknowledged anyone else’s psychological diagnosis. Which begs the question, does he only want people to not be able to label Tony Jones, while reserving the right to label others himself?
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Faith wrote:
You want to hear a sad testimony? It got to the point that I could tell you what celebrity guru the speaker was trying to emulate. Cut and paste sermons are the norm now even though most pew sitters don’t have a clue. They think they are paying the pastor to sweat blood over preparing sermons when he is really blogging and tweeting in the office.
A friend called me the other day who is still in my old church and was going on about this or that and I asked point blank: Why are you voluntarily going somewhere that stresses you out? (She has major stress in her job as it is)
What used to be a comfortable place and a joy to attend is now stressful. I have found this is not that unusual when a YRR takes over a church. The members tend to turn on each other in subtle ways because the pastor gets a long honeymoon period pretty much no matter what. So it cannot be his fault. And those times that fingers were pointed at him for failing to do whatever he turned whiney and entitled.
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lydia wrote:
Exactly.
One can’t help but wonder what these cocksure youngsters will think of their tweets 20 or 30 years from now. I reviewed some of their tweets and must admit I was much like these guys in my younger years (younger being up until about age 53). Time has a way of broadening your mind. I am just thankful social media was not an option when I was young. I would be embarrassed to have most my foolish chatter easily reproduced now.
I have a feeling most older people feel the same as I. I suspect the ones that don’t are probably not people I would enjoy having a conversation with.
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lydia wrote:
Well they were such wise men- just think if they went the other direction.
We women would be wearing little white hats and not made of tin foil either.
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@ Lydia:
Well, not only that but makes you wonder the statistics of divorce among church goers.
Men in general get bored real easy with sitting in pews and being made to feel that they have to be there unless of course you were privileged to be an elder or pastor or in the inner circle. At the church, I attended we knew a sweet couple; the husband was right away on the list of unbelievers and pretty much avoided. No one would talk to him after church or involve him in activities.
My husband could not wait to get back home from service and I thought at that time he was less godly.
What a douche I was š
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@ Chris F:
“With millennials often called digital natives, itās no wonder they have no idea how to interact with older, non-native generations. Entitlement, emotional fragility, feelings over virtues and other, ahem, character traits contribute to the millennial stereotype.”
+++++++++++
Entitlement, emotional fragility… yes, those are the words.
These young men twerps remind me of European colonizing bigwigs, who as soon as they arrive and first step foot on someone else’s soil “claim it for England!”, and start commandeering everything and everyone.
I was in a blog conversation on Rachel Held Evans’ blog a while ago on the topic of gender roles, and in sweeps Griffin Gulledge, putting everyone in their place, speaking in the first person plural (self-identifying with his ruling class heroes). This young twerp college student. As soon as I challenged him, he tweets Rachel Held Evans and complains about being treated unfairly on her blog.
it was quite a thing to behold. “Teacher, she’s being mean to me!”, just like a whiney kindergartener on the playground.
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Julie Anne wrote:
What do you want to bet that CBMW, Zondervan and CityView Church are not pleased this was brought out into the open by Brandon?
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Billy McMahon wrote:
It, unfortunately demonstrates their education which, in this case, appears to be sorely lacking in logic and street smarts.
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@ Lydia:
“You want to hear a sad testimony? It got to the point that I could tell you what celebrity guru the speaker was trying to emulate. Cut and paste sermons are the norm now even though most pew sitters donāt have a clue.”
+++++++++
ooohh, I’ve got a clue. I couldn’t believe my eyes when the pastor at the AOG church I’ve attended took on gender roles, brought in sofa to the platform for he and his wife to sit on, and proceeded to 100% mimic Mark Driscoll in that thing he did on the stage siting next to Grace, his protective guardian arm around her way too much and looking down on her as if she’s an adorable 4 year old. Exact same body language, exact same facial expressions, gestures…..
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Law Prof wrote:
Oh my. The Gospel Glitterati believe their sermon is the most important hour of the week.It is the time for all real Christian to rally around the man and get learning…Can you imagine the sermons from Brandon about haters!
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Law Prof wrote:
May his kind increase.
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@ Amy Smith:
You cannot beat Kristin Chenoweth in that role! Incredible. You know, you and I should go into the “pastor makeover business” Teach them how to smile for the heart, love other people, etc.
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@ Law Prof:
Yes. You could send it to me, I could remove the identifiers and then send it on.
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@ LT:
Don’t forget-it is the leadership who wrote the document I present in the following post. It seems to me that he might be a good fit.
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Law Prof wrote:
I (once a home health nurse) never cringe in regards to bodily fluids. However, hairy legged spiders are a different story.
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Law Prof wrote:
You forgot to add….”Bless his heart!”
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Dave A A wrote:
Years ago, I was on a Lufthansa flight caring for a very sick German patient on a stretcher in the back of the plane. So, as he was snoozing, the pilot came back to introduce himself. He them proceeded to invite me to a beer festival when I was in Germany-with him. I said to him:”I have a sick patient, we are flying over the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of the night, I hate flying to begin with and you are asking me out? Who is flying this plane? Get back there.”
He avoided me for the rest of the flight! Dang!
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@ Living Liminal:
That isn awesome comment.
We have a page here at TWW in which readers can place their deleted comments to view in posterity. We believe it has embarrassed a few of the Gospelā¢ boys. Feel free to add your on Rollins. I love having a panoply of deleted comments to show that many of these leaders are afraid of discussion no matter their theological bent.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/my-comment-was-deleted/
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@ Bill M:
I was thrilled to learn just what theological genius CBMW appointed to decide to delete comments. i have always wondered that. I shall have fun with this in the years to come.
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Jeannie E. Hess wrote:
If you have not, just mention that you read TWW. Then, you too, can be a member of the “Brandon says we are haters” club.
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@ raswhiting:
You are incredibly awesome! I can’t believe you found that.
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Tim wrote:
But, grace in their understanding means telling everyone they are haters to convict them of their total depravity and in so doing, save them from hell.
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@ elastigirl:
That could have caused me to do something drastic like stand up and run screaming from the church.
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Be careful what you say on twitter huh?
I’m glad I don’t do twitter or facebook, nor do I ‘get it’ or understand the draw.
To paraphrase my grandson, it’d be like trying to explain to a silly old rabbit why Trix are for kids.
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dee wrote:
Felt very free! Many thanks š
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dee wrote:
What I have noticed at both cultic churches that I attended was when I first started attending, there were things like regular meals where people could have social time and build camaraderie, Wednesday night meals, time to get together with other Christians during church time on Sunday, Bible studies, general fellowship. Over the course of time (and it didn’t take all that long) the leaders invariably started cutting out the fellowship, the times where believers looked at each other rather than to the front, the leaders excised. They always did it “nicely”, but I’ve come to learn that not only were they not nice, they were quite cruel.
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Law Prof wrote:
So you noticed that, too? Growing up it was more about productive group activites, meals, choir, drama, studies, etc and the time we spent looking at one person was that 15 min sermon. The rest was group interaction. I came to realize that the new breed of pastor out there wants the “face time” on him.
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elastigirl wrote:
This kind of reminds me of
āGodinterestā and the Christian theft of popular ideas
http://lauraturner.religionnews.com/2015/05/01/godinterest-and-the-christian-theft-of-popular-ideas/
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Law Prof wrote:
Um, aren’t these types more into ‘excommunications’ … š
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
The ubermenchen do that, HUG. It’s their constant theme.
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Not HUG. Dr. Fundystan.
I have scrambled 2 of my favorites together. Its a compliment to both of you.
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Faith wrote:
Me too. I keep replaying that commercial in my head–the one where the little kid tells everybody over & over, at the top of his lungs, “I pooped in the potty all by myslef! I pooped in the potty all by myslef!!”
Clearly the kid grew up & became Brandon.
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elastigirl wrote:
That’s quite the recounting of events. I *actually* laughed out loud. I particularly like the personal insult, as well as the condescending ageism– as if you can’t have an opinion until you’re older (by the way, I was at least in seminary–though I doubt you give much esteem to that. Given many seminaries, I don’t blame you.) If I recall,it was the total unwillingness to engage what we were saying (far easier to make insinuations and beat up straw men) and the total misrepresentation that I was complaining about. But then, that’s your M.O. I’ll step away at this point. I probably am acting against wisdom even leaving this comment. But it was too laughable to pass up. Best of luck to you as you continue to misrepresent and accuse other faithful Christians.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Good to see you commenting!
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Welcome to TWW. As you can see, we welcome comments by those who disagree with us. Perhaps you, as a young man going into the ministry, would consider doing the same thing. Blocking people is silly since we can see your tweets easily enough and comment on them as well with our super-secret email.
Ageism? You are young. Even Jesus waited until his 30s to begin his road to offer us redemption. A wise young man will listen to critique as opposed to going to war over it. Your public communication style is off putting to some and perhaps you could take that into consideration.
As for your seminary, I have two kids who have attended Samford so I love the institution and highly recommend it to many families since the undergraduate program taught my kids to question and think.
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Is a faithful Christian different than a Christian different than a biblical Christian?
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Griffin Gulledge wrote:
It seems you have a habit of doing that.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
“If I recall,it was the total unwillingness to engage what we were saying (far easier to make insinuations and beat up straw men) and the total misrepresentation that I was complaining about. But then, thatās your M.O.”
++++++++++++
how in the world would you know what my M.O. is?
all this “we” and “you”. you make it sound so monolithic. the fact of the matter is that so many who are trying to parse out complementarianism are mystified by stark contradictions as well as bewildering statements in flowery language put forth by its proponents. it’s frustrating as hell. yes, “you” will be misrepresented because of all the divergence and discrepancy in all the observable data put out by the gender role crowd.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Griffen, You, Rachel Held Evans and Brandon have lots in common when it comes to disagreement and notoriety. You all block and delete those who dare disagree with you.
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Why would we block people? That’s a good question. I’ll try to avoid the monolithic phraseology and put it this way: Whenever people get into a discussion with this group (broadly speaking), instead of hearing reasoned debate or people trying accurately represent us, we are generally met with accusations, name-calling, and misrepresentation. I understand that complementarians have at times been abusive. So have many egalitarians. Neither are justified in such actions. It grieves me to hear of such things, and my friend Brandon is likewise grieved. Do you dislike the language in his church covenant? Fine. But “love believes all things”… perhaps instead of believing the worst–that they are control freak member abusers who by no means want their people to think for themselves–consider that maybe their application of the policies is done not just in ‘love’ abstractly, but with a kind and gentle spirit. At that point, if you still disagree, please disagree with clarity and accurate representation. I have had my disagreements with friends with CBMW on a number of occasions. They are always chariable with me, even when I strongly disagree with them. They know *how* I am coming at them is not as an enemy. The seminary I attend is interdenominational and many of my friends are *not* fans of complementarianism. We manage, however, to have good-spirited debate for the most part, however, because of a desire to represent one another accurately and not believe the worst about each other. When I read what many here write about complementarianism, I am saddened. I don’t deny the abuses that have occured at times, but I don’t recognize it either as the universal experience of even most complementarian churchgoers. If the issue is that “all the observable data” says complementarianism is horrible and abusive, then I’m afraid we won’t be able to have much of a conversation.
It is not only my experience, but the general feeling of many others in my *camp*, that this group (broadly speaking, perhaps not all) does not desire that but rather aims to skewer those whose ideas they deem ‘dangerous’ and whose language might sound like that used by other abusers. That’s unfortunate. There is a more charitable discussion to be had, but it doesn’t seem to be present here. I am sorry for my own part in uncharitable discussion and jumping to unhelpful conclusions. But perhaps you might consider that if those all over the spectrum, from RHE to me (a powerful woman to a generally unknown young man) react to you the same way, then maybe you should take a second look at your methods. Why would be block you? Because at some point you realize that the conversation isn’t moving forward and all that’s ahead is sarcasm, mockery, and, more likely than not, sin (not just from our opponents, but from us). In that case, it seems better just to end the conversation permanently.
That’s all I’ve got. I hope you hear it as my best attempt to explain my reaction, and not from animus or disdain. If this statement gets parsed out and examined for every possible mis-step, I guess I’ll know it’s fallen on deaf ears.
All the best to you.
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Griffin Gulledge wrote:
In other words, you’re not really interested in reasoned debate?
You say that “love believes all things,” yet Brandon blocks someone he’s never had any personal interaction with because . . . why? What did Brandon’s “love” believe about Dee? Did he believe the worst about her? Was his blocking with “a kind and gentle spirit?” It doesn’t display that “there is a more charitable discussion to be had” from your “camp” either.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Sorry, Griffin. You did not do what I do and that is give concrete examples for your claims. You may not like what I say but I show why I believe what I do with links, etc. You need to give your reasons for saying that
“I spend my life spewing misdirected hate at others.”
Good night! I wouldn’t tell anyone to get near a church in which you are in a position of “authority.” Is this how you respond to conflict. You “spew” about others “spewing hatred” without one bit of evidence. That is deeply worrisome.
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Lydia wrote:
You are correct!
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Where can a reasoned debate be had on Complementarian sites or in Complementarian churches? That hasn’t been my experience, for sure. Complementarianism has been made into a first-tier issue at TgC and T4G, so I don’t see much room for reasoned debate on the issues and the texts.
Let me know where I can have such a discussion. I would love to see it, but I don’t think it will happen because too many people are too much in love with their own position of superiority to even consider that perhaps we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and co-heirs.
And I’ll ask my standard question: Where did God ordain this hierarchy you all talk about endlessly? Where is the missing text?
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Gram3 wrote:
It seems to me that the much talked about authoritarian personality sees authority and the necessary concomitant hierarchy in everything everywhere it looks. This is a personality thing, or so some say. Some people are raised this way from birth. From what I see there are others who apparently chose it as an alternative to the disruption and chaos in their own lives. They “see” that the whole world is like this at its best and believe that the answer to many problems is more adherence such a way of life.
That said, and if that is correct (and I have been wrong a few thousand times) then these authoritarian types “see” in scripture what they see everywhere-the rule of authority/hierarchy and the problems due to the lack of it and to them it is perfectly evident in scripture based on order of creation arguments and based on law/legalism and based on the very nature of God as they see it. In other words, their world view is this and therefore they see the world like this, and because they see the world like this it is their world view; and round and round it goes.
So why this rant? Because it is not about arguments from scripture. The people who see this and the people who do not see this do not seem to be apt to change their world views based on this or that scriptural argument. It may be, and I am on thin ice here, that those who require authoritarianism and hierarchy because the ‘know’ that is how things ‘are’ would leave christianity and turn elsewhere if christianity began to look too soft and undisciplined in their eyes. And may I say that we well may have seen some of that in the last century you-know-where when pastors in the german lutheran state church chose nation over God by the droves (back to the Bonhoeffer biography I keep referencing.)
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Griffin Gulledge wrote:
That was one of CJ’s lines: Believe the best of your leaders.
And of course I have heard it from several insulated mega church leaders as a shaming silencing tactic to ward off uncomfortable questions. I have a better idea. How about total transparency.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Ok. I think I get your position. You blame others for not communicating in your approved manner so you block them preemptively. A real convo was never attempted. You even spin that as Christian.
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@ Nancy:
You’re right, as far as I can tell, about authoritarian personalities seeing authority issues wherever they look, including in the Bible.
The conservatives who have changed from a hierarchical complementarian view to a mutual complementarian view or an egalitarian view have done so based on the texts by using the conservative grammatical-historical method. I can’t say where others got their view since I don’t run in those circles.
So why do I keep taking it back to the texts? Because they say they are conservatives who are trying to protect the authority and sufficiency of scripture. They make a huge claim that God ordained a hierarchy, and I’m going to keep asking them, the defenders of the text, where God ordained it. If it is a gospel issue, then one would reasonably expect to find it somewhere. They always talk about what the Bible plainly says, but when you push them to point to where the Bible plainly says Hierarchy of Male over Female, then they retreat into “whispers” and “hints” and “indications” which are mere inferences that they draw because, as you said, they see hierarchy everywhere. How convenient that they are the ones who benefit!
There are people who are willing to think and examine the texts because they truly want to know what God has revealed, and they are willing to consider that perhaps Paul has been misinterpreted due to the pre-understandings of the interpreters and translators. Others have very closed minds. Regardless, I’ve seen the damage done by this system, so I want to continue to challenge it. That may not change any minds of those who gain from the system, but it may encourage some of those who have been devastated by it. And those are the ones I care about the most.
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@ Nancy:
Anyone can believe what they want to believe that God said. But when someone says that someone else has to be a “less-than” human being because God made them to be “less-than” so that they can help the “more-than” human beings, then they need to show where God said that in God’s word. Otherwise they are being dishonest with the text that they are using for their own benefit.
The trouble for most of these guys is that they have never studied this issue deeply and objectively. They are spouting talking points just like the political talking heads where facts don’t matter. Only the narrative matters. So when you press them on the facts, they run. I say if you are a Christian and you want to put other people under a law of hierarchy, then you had better have the goods. Otherwise, people are reasonable to assume you don’t have the goods and are just making stuff up.
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Gram3 wrote:
That is a great idea and more of that needs to be done.
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@ Griffin Gulledge:
Do you think it is abusive for some humans to be deemed “less than” by other humans? Do you think it is abusive for the “more than” humans to use God’s word to keep the “less-than” humans in their subordinate place? Do you think it is abusive for a pastor or other spiritual leader to tell people that God ordained them to be “less-than” and that the reason that God even created them was so that they could serve the interests of the “more-than” human beings? Do you think it is abusive to use God’s word to say that God created the “less-than” human beings in a derivative image via the “more-than” human beings rather than in his direct image? Do you think it is an abuse of plain and accepted reasoning to say that a genetic configuration makes a human being either “less-than” or “more-than” another human being? Do you think that it is an abuse of logic to say that a genetic configuration that a human being did not control and cannot change is functional rather than ontological?
Try substituting the “races” for the sexes and see if you draw the same conclusions. I don’t think you will, because thankfully racism is no longer acceptable while sexism still is. The trouble is that you are so young that you have no memory of institutionalized racism in the church.
Stop and think before you contribute to the pain of other human beings created in God’s image, and created in his image every bit as much as you. Stop thinking more highly of yourself and your gender-peers than you should, and stop misusing God’s word to keep people in bondage when Christ died to set them free. Stop nullifying the Gospel with your Law of Gender Hierarchy.
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Gram3 wrote:
This is key. Their only recourse is to shut down the convo before it starts, silence and shaming. Their world is so stifling!
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Gram3 wrote:
The reformed calvanist attitude discussed on this forum includes references to Al Mohler. That young baptist students are espousing the attitudes, highlighted in this post, appears to be a result of the belief system being intentionally taught in SBC institutions. It is very significant that the belief system began to change with the changes made in 2000 to the Baptist Faith and Message. Since that time, there has been an intentional effort to push out believers who hold to the previous doctrines, that were altered by the year 2000 changes. For those who are interested, this is a link to a very good analysis, made at the time, of the potential affect of the changes. http://assets.baptiststandard.com/archived/2001/5_14/pages/dilday.html
The analysis has proved to be quite accurate with regard to concerns of a growing hierarchy lead by singular elder/pastors. The discussions on this forum make it more apparent to me of the intention, and result, of the changes. Individual accountability is out, top down group conformity is in. By the way, in researching this, I have found that Al Mohler was instrumental in the year 2000 changes and that calvanism was a motivation. Question: have the changes resulted in an increase in expressions of the fruit of the spirit by exemplary pastors, those “in the ministry” who differentiate themselves by such?
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@ dee:
My guess would be that these orgs hired Brandon, know what theyre getting and believe their own statements. I doubt a blog is going to change much. For better or worse.
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It’s pretty basic: You ask uncomfortable questions, therefore you are a hate-monger….BLOCKED.
If only we all could live in such a simple world.
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@ Jed Paschall:
Can I consider these actions an act of immaturity?
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Mike wrote:
We go for preemptive warnings to keep people from signing up and getting hurt.
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@ Ed:
Ed, did you see this one written back in 2000 quoting folks on the BFM committee? Who ever thought adding a sly “s” to Priesthood of believer in the BFM would help change the course of SBC history? That Mohler is one brilliant political stategist!
http://assets.baptiststandard.com/archived/2000/7_17/pages/bfm_meaning.html