What You Should Know About Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries – Part 1

"They longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians and wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament."

Covenant Life Church website

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=6618&picture=information-pointInformation Point

In recent months we have expanded our range of topics here at TWW and have attracted a good number of new readers.  There has been a growing interest in our extensive coverage of a church planting network known as Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) as well as Covenant Life Church (CLC), which was once SGM’s flagship church.  Dee and I have been researching SGM and CLC for nearly seven years, and we have tried to condense our knowledge into what we hope will be an informational post.  

******************

Some Background Information

For the first time since its inception, Covenant Life Church (CLC) is without a shepherd.  The church began back in 1977 in a suburban Maryland home under the leadership of Larry Tomczak and C.J. Mahaney.  According to the Wiki article, the church

had its roots in a city-wide charismatic prayer meeting called Take and Give (TAG) which ran from 1970 to 1979. TAG began as a small bible study led by Lydia Little, a Washington, DC area resident who had experienced the Jesus People revival in California and wanted to see similar renewal brought to local young people. TAG continued to grow in numbers with the Tuesday night meetings moving from the Blair High School auditorium to a larger auditorium space at Christ Church of Washington. Larry Tomczak and C.J. Mahaney became the main teachers with Jim Orban leading worship and a number of other young people taking on other leadership responsibilities as the group grew.

As many as 2,000 would attend these weekly meetings.  Once these faithful attendees became invested in the group, they wanted more.  According to the CLC website,  

They longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians and wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament.

The initial group of 30 or so called itself the Gathering of Believers.  Two years after the church launch, the TAG gatherings came to an end.  As the church began to grow, it met at various schools and facilities in Montgomery County, Maryland.  Around 1980 the congregation settled on the name Covenant Life Church (CLC).

Then in the early 1990s, the church secured 40 acres upon which it would build its permanent home.  C.J. Mahaney became CLC's pastor, and Larry Tomczak spearheaded the church planting arm known as People of Destiny.  It would later become known as PDI International and then Sovereign Grace Ministries — the name that was adopted in 2002.

As CLC's pastor, Mahaney slowly began to shift the theology of the church toward Calvinism (reformed theology).  It was such a gradual change that almost no one took notice — except for the group's co-founder Larry Tomczak.  By 1998 Tomczak appears to have had a problem with this theological change, and he and Mahaney parted ways.  Since that time, it has become fairly common knowledge that what had actually occurred between the two was that Mahaney blackmailed Tomczak into resigning due to "teenage rebellion" exhibited by the Tomczaks' son.  That tactic of manipulating Sovereign Grace pastors into resigning due to their children's unacceptable behavior (even after becoming adults) would play out again and again. 

The year before Larry Tomczak resigned, Joshua Harris moved from his native state of Oregon to Gaithersburg, Maryland to be mentored by C.J. Mahaney.  Interestingly, Harris lived with the Mahaney family as he was being groomed for a key position at CLC.  Unbeknownst to the Covenant Life congregation and members of the SGM church plants, Brent Detwiler was privately calling his colleague C.J. Mahaney to account for pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy in the years leading up to the passing of the baton at CLC.  Then in 2004 Joshua Harris was installed as Mahaney's successor, allowing C.J. to focus solely on his responsibilities as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.

As SGM president, Mahaney became quite popular on the conference circuit.  The Reformed movement was gaining momentum, and C.J. was becoming more widely known.  Some of his first appearances beyond the realm of CLC were at the Together on a Mission conference in Great Britain and the Resolved Conference — both in 2005.  Thanks to his faithful friend Mark Dever, Mahaney was introduced to Ligon Duncan and Al Mohler, who had known Dever for decades.  The following year (2006) these four friends (Dever, Duncan, Mohler and Mahaney ) launched a bi-annual conference called Together for the Gospel.  Mahaney continued to speak at the Resolved conference, which was held annually for eight years in a row, at SGM conferences, at Gospel Coalition conferences, at the 2010 SBC Pastors Conference, at Southern Baptist seminaries, and the list goes on…  He also wrote two books which have been and continue to be heavily promoted by the Neo-Cal crowd, namely Humility: True Greatness and The Cross Centered Life.

TWW Begins Its Investigation

It was the summer of 2008 that Dee and I discovered something amiss in the conservative corner of Christendom.  Our families were members of different Southern Baptist churches, and some unusual circumstances occurred that prompted us to begin conducting internet research.  It didn't take long for us to discover two blogs that were critical of a 'family of churches' known as Sovereign Grace Ministries.  They were SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge.  (SGM Survivors still exists, while SGM Refuge has since been taken down).  We began reading about SGM's leader C.J. Mahaney, and we happened to remember that he and Joshua Harris had been lauded in a September 2006 Christianity Today article cleverly called Young, Restless, Reformed.  Here is a pertinent excerpt:

For Harris, things started changing when he read Piper describe God's glory and breathtaking sovereignty. Later, C. J. Mahaney, a charismatic Calvinist and founding pastor of Covenant Life, took Harris under his wing and groomed him to take over the church.

The more we read the heartbreaking testimonies published on the SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge websites, the more we began to realize that something was terribly amiss in the SGM 'family of churches'.  Then in March 2009 we launched The Wartburg Watch.  From the get go, our focus has primarily been on spiritual abuse.  That being the case, it should come as no surprise that Sovereign Grace Ministries has been researched and discussed fairly extensively here at TWW.  A perusal of our archives under the "Categories" heading reveals our many posts on SGM and related topics.

The Mahaney Money Machine

Dee and I had only been blogging for a couple of months, and then in June 2009 I was sitting at my computer and felt what has come to be known as The Wartburg Tingle.  Suddenly, I was compelled to investigate whether C.J. Mahaney had made contributions to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention.  Perhaps it was the seminary president's fierce loyalty to Mahaney that prompted this investigation.  After hours of digging, the picture became crystal clear.  To my utter shock, C.J. Mahaney (individually) and Sovereign Grace Ministries had EACH given Southern Seminary A MIMIMUM of $100,000 over a relatively short number of years.  This was a cumulative amount.  That went a long way in explaining Al Mohler's fierce loyalty to C.J. Mahaney.  

Upon making this discovery, I was deeply concerned that a portion of the contributions being made by members of Sovereign Grace churches were being funneled to a Southern Baptist seminary.  (And I'm Southern Baptist!)  SGM was essentially a denomination in itself, and it seemed strange that these vast sums were not being used to expand the SGM church-planting network. 

The Mahaney Money Machine post was published that June, and it caused quite an uproar within the ranks of SGM.  SGMers were incensed that money was being donated to a Southern Baptist seminary WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE.  TWW re-published the original post in 2010 with some additional information, and it can be accessed here.  Our blogging skills have improved considerably since then, and we have learned the wonderful technique of taking screen shots.  Here is the pertinent information from the 2007 SBTS Roll Call (page 43). 

http://d3pi8hptl0qhh4.cloudfront.net/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf

Individuals

http://d3pi8hptl0qhh4.cloudfront.net/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf

Businesses, Denominations and Foundations

http://d3pi8hptl0qhh4.cloudfront.net/media/publications/magazine/2008Spring.pdf

We are still perplexed about these contributions.  It causes us to wonder whether SGM donations were being given to other organizations, ministries, and/or individuals.  As we understand it, financial details were closely guarded by the upper brass, and we may never know the extent to which Mahaney and SGM made contributions to those outside Sovereign Grace Ministries.

Mahaney Steps Down and Is Quickly Deemed "Fit For Ministry"

The outcry against C.J. Mahaney continued to escalate, and in July 2011 he stepped down from the presidency of SGM for a time.  Justin Taylor published Mahaney's statement, which begins as follows:

Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me and informed me about offenses they have with me as well as other leaders in Sovereign Grace. These charges are serious and they have been very grieving to read. These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.

I believe God is kindly disciplining me through this. I believe I have by the grace of God perceived a degree of my sin, and I have been grieved by my sin and its effects on others.  I have had the opportunity to confess my sin to some of those affected in various ways by my sin. And I am so very grateful for their forgiveness.  But I want to perceive and confess any and all sin I have committed.  Although my experience of conviction has already started—and this is an evidence of God’s mercy—I’m sure there is more for me to perceive and acknowledge.  Even with the charges I disagree with it has been beneficial to examine my soul and ask for the observation of others.  And I am resolved to take responsibility for my sin and every way my leadership has been deficient, and this would include making any appropriate confessions, public or private.  Most importantly I want to please God during this season of examination and evaluation.

So here is what I am going to do. I’ve asked to take a leave of absence in order to give time to considering these charges, examine my heart, and receive the appropriate help from others.

Mahaney's statement first appeared on the SGM website, and Dave Harvey, who was serving as interim president, subsequently removed the entire statement.  This is why we have linked to Justin Taylor's post over at The Gospel Coalition.

The following month C.J. Mahaney was declared 'fit for ministry' by what we now know was a hand-picked panel.  The identities of the panel members were kept confidential until the findings were released.  They were Kevin DeYoung, Ray Ortlund, and Carl Trueman.  Here is how we reported on their findings.  Trueman may finally be waking up to the truth, but only time will tell…

The following January (2012) Mahaney was reinstated as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Many who spoke out against him and the SGM 'family of churches' were terribly disappointed with what had transpired.  Mahaney was back in charge, and nothing seemed like it was going to change.

SGM Hires Ambassadors of Reconciliation

Not long after SGM hired the Ambassadors of Reconciliation to resolve serious problems within SGM.  These matters had been discussed on SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge, and now some pastors were complaining about how they had been treated.  The research took 9 long months, with many current and former members being interviewed.  When the Ambassadors of Reconciliation finally released its report in April 2012, the organization was met with much criticism which we believe was fully warranted.   It appeared that SGM had once again sidestepped mounting criticism. 

Sovereign Grace Ministries Announces Its Move to Kentucky

Nine days after the Ambassadors of Reconciliation released its report, an announcement was made on the SGM website that the Board had decided to move SGM headquarters and the Pastors College to Kentucky.  You can read their reasons excuses here.  Christianity Today reported the news as follows:

Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), which has weathered controversy over its leadership and discipline practices, will relocate its offices and pastor-training program to Louisville, Kentucky.

Currently based in Gaithersburg, Maryland, SGM cited the economy as the main factor in its decision. It also hopes to expand its Pastors College and collaborate with Louisville-based Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS).

Once again, it appeared that SGM leaders had found a way to dodge the mounting problems they were facing.  Like the wagon trains of old, SGM was going West in search of a new start. 

In our upcoming post (which we hope to publish later tomorrow), we will continue the SGM saga.  Since SGM's move to Louisville three years ago, things have only gotten worse for the ministry.  As we continue their story, we will focus on some serious accusations that were made in a lawsuit against SGM and others as well as the Nate Morales trial and the terrible cover-up of child sex abuse that was revealed.  We will also take a look at an SGM church that in recent years handled a pedophile situation poorly. 

In the meantime, Jen Grover has put together an excellent timeline that highlights much of the information we are sharing here.

We welcome any questions or commentary you may have.

Comments

What You Should Know About Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries – Part 1 — 62 Comments

  1. It is not a true church and not a true ministry. They took advantage of those weaker and that is not true shepherding or walking with Jesus. It is…untrue.

  2. @ Foot:

    Yes. That will become very apparent in our upcoming post when we delve into the lawsuits, Nate Morales trial/conviction, Grant Layman testimony, and other related matters.

  3. And, then there is how the whole PDI/$GM (CLC) circus was funded – tithes. This tithe teaching is foundational to its “cult”ure. You would have to study tithing in light of what Jesus did on the cross to understand the depravity and irony of it all…

  4. We are still perplexed about these contributions. It causes us to wonder whether SGM donations were being given to other organizations, ministries, and/or individuals.

    And Money Talks.

  5. Mahaney Steps Down and Is Quickly Deemed “Fit For Ministry”

    Without having to bug out and start his own denom to pronounce himself Fit for Ministry like Jimmy Swaggart did.

  6. Sovereign Grace Ministries Announces Its Move to Kentucky

    Wasn’t that one jump ahead of the Maryland DA investigating the pedophile coverup scandal?

    Probably figured Kentucky (that “dark and bloody ground”) would be friendly territory. After all, it includes Ken Ham’s Creation Museum and theme park. And they like their preachers “With NO book larnin’ and LOUD.”

  7. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Mahaney Steps Down and Is Quickly Deemed “Fit For Ministry”
    Without having to bug out and start his own denom to pronounce himself Fit for Ministry like Jimmy Swaggart did.

    By that point, all of the men, their co-YRR leaders, and the various entities in the YRR movement had invested a *lot* of personal capital, besides the money. They had yoked themselves to C.J. and he to them. Which made the revelations about C.J. even more awkward. Even if they believed did anything inappropriate, and by their actions I conclude they do not. Plus, based on some conversations, I believe they were concerned that the attention paid to C.J. might or could be turned on them. There but for the grace of God and all that. The “Blog Accountability Minions of Satin” had to be silenced by their authoritative pronouncement.

  8. The “Blog Accountability Minions of Satin” had to be silenced by their authoritative pronouncement.

    Lol… Is that an exact quote of somebody? Kind of like the minions of Stan?

  9. @ NJ:
    No, but I’ve heard that sentiment expressed by many in certain churches and about various discernment blogs and about various Usual Suspects who are highly favored by those people. The expression Minions of Satin is how I think I first read it here, though I may be misremembering. I didn’t make it up, so no credit to me. Wish I had, though.

  10. Deebs,
    I’m interested in your current take on CLC/Josh Harris – I have a friend who went to CLC when she lived in Maryland [only under Harris, not Mahaney] and was there when they left SGM. Some of Harris’ more recent comments about reporting abuse and the leaving SGM seem to indicate that he has grown to believe and embrace truth more than Mahaney has. From what you all know, would you say that is accurate?

  11. Wonderful explanation. Thanks so much, I always wondered who these groups were(initial wise) and kind of how they got that way. Lord, give us discernment, and courage to walk away.

  12. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    How many people do I have to defend against? First it was the calvinist baptists trying to claim that they ‘own’ Louisville and now somebody from California who wants to disparage the whole state.

  13. @ Foot:

    “Ouch-ca-bible!”
    ++++++++++

    I remember my mom saying ‘fish-ca-bibble’. which seemed to be another word for ‘oh phooey’ or ‘fiddlesticks’.

    ‘fish-ca-bibble’… do you know this word, too? what does it mean, exactly?

  14. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And they like their preachers “With NO book larnin’ and LOUD.”

    Gee Thanks.

    Fact is the Creation Museum has had financial troubles since day 1. You might want to point out our democrat governor, friend of Obama and one who jumped right onto the Obama healthcare network for the state, was more than happy to provide the Creation Museum with economic development dollars recently in order to stay alive. Something he can do without house approval.

  15.   __

    “Sweet Discernment That Will Set You Free?”

    hmmm…

    “There is no brake when it comes to the lack of common sense…”

    huh?

    Read What?

    “Humility: True Greatness and The ‘Double- Cross’ Centered Life?”

    Bump.

    Might wanna Hold on to your wallet and your dreams, huh?

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief:
    Why Sing Of So Many Double-Cross’d Lives?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGLrzyOY1SA

    Bumper Crop Bonus?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3984wyqJIcQ

    ;~)

  16. @ Lydia:

    Aren’t they having the run for the roses today? We lived within walking distance of churchill downs when I was an intern and resident. h-o-m-e-s-i-c-k Does that still mean that starting tomorrow it is okay to wear white shoes?

  17. From the post: “and wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament”.

    Really? Churches small enough in number to meet in homes (forget mega) and caught between various presentations of the message (I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas and I am of Christ) and with the think tank in Jerusalem keeping a watchful eye and sending emissaries to deal with stuff? I don’t see that they tried to do that in the least. They went for size and uniformity of belief and practice and no accountability to any outside authority even remotely institutional looking. Maybe they just meant robes and sandals?

  18.   __

    “Ride Da SGM See-Saw?”

    Ah ah ah ah, ah ah ah ah, ah ah ah ah ah
    Ah ah ah ah, ah ah ah ah, ah ah ah ah ah
    Da SGM world is spinning around,
    Everything is lost that was suposed to be found.
    People run, come ride with me,
    Let’s find another place that’s free. [1]

    __
    [1] Parody adaptation, Moody Blues, “Ride My See-Saw”; all rights reserved, fair use, U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement unintended.

  19. You should closely investigate all the pastors in covenant fellowship church as well since that is where the new abusers in charge located.

  20. Nancy wrote:

    Does that still mean that starting tomorrow it is okay to wear white shoes?

    I will await Lydia’s ruling, but let me say that the only shoes I wear are the ones with my steel orthotics. IIRC, the rule used to be Memorial Day to Labor Day, but in Florida it was whatever because summer is pretty much all we had.

    I will join in your defense of Kentucky. Some of my people came out of Kentucky, and they were hard-working, courageous people. Louisville is a lovely city. Even in winter. The only time I placed a bet (good cradle-roll Baptist that I am) was a pretend bet at Churchill Downs. My selection criterion was cutest name. He won though he had long odds, and if I had been smart enough to place a real bet, the whole group of us could have had a nice dinner complete with adult beverages and Derby pie all around. Very bad decision.

  21. Nancy wrote:

    From the post: “and wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament”.

    To add to your description they would need to forgo collecting vast sums of money. Also add in a dose of persecution suffered by the early church.

    For the subject discussed here it should be pointed out that prosecution and persecution are not the same thing.

  22.   __

    “Got Ma Eye On You?”

    hmmm…

    In 1978, one of the bigest thingz C.J. and Larry _itched about was ‘lack of accountability’ at T.A.G.

    hahahahahahahaha

    Accountability?

    FAST_FOWARD…

    What a hoot!

    🙂

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief: “SGM Cr@p is King?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzT10MSgKtU

    ;~)

  23. @ Nancy:

    Are they? I hardly pay attention anymore. I did my time taking out of town clients and arranging all the details of every minute of the constant festivities until I can hardly stand the thought of going near the place. I even gave away my stock of ridiculous hats.

    When I was a little girl we did follow the white shoes after “Memorial Day” rule except for white Patton leather for Easter if one was under 13. And, you would not see white shoes at the Derby unless they were “foreigners” and did not know the rules. :o) But those were the days before infielders climbed the flag pole naked.

    I do hope those celebrating the Derby today know that one only uses shaved ice in a julep. And please, no plastic cups. It ruins the taste. See, I did learn a few things despite being raised a Baptist. :o)

  24. Lydia wrote:

    one only uses shaved ice in a julep. And please, no plastic cups. It ruins the taste. See, I did learn a few things despite being raised a Baptist.

    Boy are you ever backslid. You gave away your hats *and* you use beverage alcohol? I’m feeling a little…faint…

  25. As somebody who lives not too terribly far away from the Creation Museum, used to know people working there, and even went to church there for a while (yes, really) I will say that I’d rather live with that in my backyard than C.J.’s pastors college. Assuming it’s even still viable next academic year. Brent Detwiler has an interesting post from July of last year that includes some shocking numbers on the financials. If his information is correct, the pastors college is on the ropes by well over a million dollars, maybe more. Should that go under, it’s anyone’s guess what Mahaney and company at SGM Louisville will do next.

  26. Gram3 wrote:

    Boy are you ever backslid. You gave away your hats *and* you use beverage alcohol? I’m feeling a little…faint…

    Truth be told I despise bourbon but “when in Rome” at the Derby, you know. And with extra mint, they are quite tolerable. I grew up drinking lots of fresh mint in iced tea.

    Let’s say very backslidden because in those days Schenley Industries was one of my clients and later Jim Bean Brands! Oy vey. Was there a Baptist Church in Louisville back then that did not have members who worked for either Phillip Morris or one of the many distilleries here? :o)

  27. @ Lydia:
    I was involved in a coffeehouse ministry in central Virginia during the early and mid 1980’s. One of the lead volunteers worked at the Philip Morris factory in Richmond even though he was an elder at a Pentecostal church and neither smoked nor drank. I found that ironic in a way, but at the time Philip Morris was Richmond’s largest private employer.

  28.   __

    “Trouble Still Brewing?”

    hmmm…

    Yes, it’s true, SGM churches abuse. 

    What?

    Wow! 

    What a revelation !

    (sadface)

    It’s true that the churches of Sovereign Grace Ministries have ‘mishandled’ and ‘mistreated’ many people through their organization’s own peculiar blend of hyper-authoritarian teachings and pastors-as-mediators with little formal training and zero formal accountability to their congregations. 

    That combination was and in some cases still is, ‘particularly lethal’…

    Wish to learn more?  :

    sneak a peek :

    https://scribd.com/sgmwikileaks

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/transcripts/

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/the-stories/

    Janet Mefferd Interviews Tullian Tchividjian
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iuCm42I6jg

    Boz Tchividjian Says Churches Cause Damage by Failing to Take Sex Abuse Seriously
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq21m-0vEmA

    Sovereign Grace Ministries-Alleged Child Sexual Abuse?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFMeuBknW34

    read, watch, and weep?

  29. Lydia wrote:

    Was there a Baptist Church in Louisville back then that did not have members who worked for either Phillip Morris or one of the many distilleries here?

    I was never asked at church where I worked or what I did on the job. I was never asked to sign a pledge to abstain from anything at all. I was never asked about my sex life or about how many children I planned to have. I did hear “where is your husband, dear?” I usually said he was working, but a time or two I could not tolerate that any more and said that he was lying in bed with a hangover. He was not of course, and he was working, but don’t you just have to have a little fun with busybodies sometimes?

  30. I am still confused as to whether Open Door Church and Summit Church in Raleigh are affiliated with SGA ?

  31. @ Nancy:

    Good for you Nancy ! Good for you ! You go girl !
    There’s hardly anything I hate worse than a busy-body on sin-sniff-patrol.
    I’d have paid money to see the look on the sniffer’s face when he or she didn’t get what he or she was after.

  32. Ann wrote:

    I am still confused as to whether Open Door Church and Summit Church in Raleigh are affiliated with SGA ?

    Did you mean SGM?

  33. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Probably figured Kentucky (that “dark and bloody ground”) would be friendly territory. After all, it includes Ken Ham’s Creation Museum and theme park. And they like their preachers “With NO book larnin’ and LOUD.”

    Hey, I’m from Kentucky, buster, and your derogatory comments about my old Kentucky Home and its preachers are… Well, pretty much spot on. CJ fits right in. I’ve never understood the shouting from the puipit. Its surely a leftover from the days before PA systems, but now it just seems like!e an expression of insecurity.

  34. Nancy wrote:

    was never asked at church where I worked or what I did on the job. I was never asked to sign a pledge to abstain from anything at all. I was never asked about my sex life or about how many children I planned to have. I did hear “where is your husband, dear?” I usually said he was working, but a time or two I could not tolerate that any more and said that he was lying in bed with a hangover. He was not of course, and he was working, but don’t you just have to have a little fun with busybodies sometimes?

    My dad went into the office every Sat and Sun. he was gone before we got up. OTOH, my mom had a key to every church where she was playing and we were there a lot. Never once can I remember anyone asking me where my dad was or why he did not come to church. He would come several times a year to see me in some performance or something like that.

    It was simply not an issue. It was never an issue with my mom or she would have said something as she was no shrinking violet on such issues.

    I just do not remember being around people who asked questions of such a nature. It just was not done. My older brother attended a different church and no one said a word!

    I am amazed at the questions grown ups often ask my teens that put them on the spot. They sound innocent enough but frankly most of it is none of their business. I am trying to help them with responses that are respectful but discreet. That is not as easy as it seems. People think differently today about personal information and tend to share it freely instead of keeping their own counsel.

    I loved your comeback! :o)

  35. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Probably figured Kentucky (that “dark and bloody ground”) would be friendly territory. After all, it includes Ken Ham’s Creation Museum and theme park

    You always make me laugh!

  36. Sarah wrote:

    Some of Harris’ more recent comments about reporting abuse and the leaving SGM seem to indicate that he has grown to believe and embrace truth more than Mahaney has. From what you all know, would you say that is accurate?

    A long time ago, a representative of SNAP gave me a piece of advice that I now use when asked any questions about child sex abuse. She said to always think of the victims first.The Deebs call this our “Prime Directive.”

    Until we see those in a position of power reach out, hug, and love on those who were abused AND apologize for any statements that denigrated their pain and suffering, no one has changed in my book. And Harris has not done this. In fact, he is escaping as far away from them as he can get.

  37. NJ wrote:

    I’d rather live with that in my backyard than C.J.’s pastors college. Assuming it’s even still viable next academic year. Brent Detwiler has an interesting post from July of last year that includes some shocking numbers on the financials. If his information is correct, the pastors college is on the ropes by well over a million dollars, maybe more. Should that go under, it’s anyone’s guess what Mahaney and company at SGM Louisville will do next.

    Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and Al Mohler will forever bear the stigma of accepting the Pastor’s College graduates.Imagine accepting men who have no undergraduate education into a Masters programming giving them scholarships meant for Baptists? Thankfully, Mohler saw the light and discontinued this. But, the Mahaney extended family is still hanging around the seminary.

  38. Thanks Dee! Do you know if they are officially 9 Marks. My brother goes to Open Door and says that are not, but I see the church on 9Marks web sight. My niece goes to Summit. My brother seems to get very obsessed with this “obedience” thing and it concerns me. There is nothing I can do, but I am confused as to how these churches stand. My brother has become very much into rigid roles in marriage and very Calvinistic. Is he learning this at his church?

  39. dee wrote:

    GSD:
    Have you seen the Creation Museum?

    Hi Dee, I live on the other end of the state, so its about 5 hours away. I did drive past it once, and it really is just barely in Kentucky. I drove up to Cincinnati after a meeting in Louisville, to visit a model train display and shop at IKEA, which was all fun. (Yup, I’m a massive geek.) On the way out of town, I took the loop so I could drive past the museum, and it really is two miles inside the border. Don’t think I could handle a visit. Unless I could find a “Hugh Ross Fan Club” T-shirt.

  40. By the way, last Spring we were in Louisville for a graduation, and stayed Saturday night in a hotel. On Sunday morning, I seriously considered driving over to the Marriott to visit SGML, but I was coming down with a cold, and already felt pretty crappy. Still, it would have been interesting, and I was mainly thinking of filing a report with TWW. I know they have 5 pastors, so I was surprised to hear that attendance or membership is about 80. Is that true? That can’t go on for long. And an exit or two up I-64 is Southeast Christian, with a weekly attendance of 22,000.

  41. GSD wrote:

    Still, it would have been interesting, and I was mainly thinking of filing a report with TWW. I know they have 5 pastors, so I was surprised to hear that attendance or membership is about 80. Is that true?

    We would have loved your special report. You, too can be a blogger! 🙂

    I have heard that attendance is not what was hoped for. Now, because of their connection with the SGM central, I would not be surprised if there was life support being given. However, the whole shooting match could collapse one of these days. Major worries at CLC about their finances as well.

  42. GSD wrote:

    Unless I could find a “Hugh Ross Fan Club” T-shirt.

    They might make you turn your t shirt inside out. I heard they did that to some atheists who were walking through the museum.

    Ham thinks that anyone who does not believe as he does is no better than wan atheist. However, given the atheists who come on this site, I would take that as a compliment since they are far kinder. (Take that-Albuquerque Blue.)

  43. Ann wrote:

    I see the church on 9Marks web sight

    If you see Open Door on 9 Marks site, that means they endorse the 9 Marks of a Healthy™ Church. That is enough to know. They are into Dever’s stuff.

    The Summit:

    It appears JD Greer really liked Mark Driscoll.

    http://www.jdgreear.com/my_weblog/2009/01/mark-driscoll-and-the-nyt.html

    And he now absolutely adores 9 Marks and tells people to make their book a staple

    “Our church has benefited immensely from them, particularly from Leeman’s books and his work at 9 Marks. We are a proud and grateful participant in the 9 Marks network. Mark Dever’s 9 Marks of the Healthy Church is a staple for our elders and church planters, and we would encourage you to make it one for yours, also.

    http://www.jdgreear.com/my_weblog/2014/10/multi-site-a-biblically-sound-model.html

    Be concerned if you find, like I do, 9 Marks teachings concerning.

  44. GSD wrote:

    Don’t think I could handle a visit. Unless I could find a “Hugh Ross Fan Club” T-shirt.

    Bless you!! I have often had the same thought. (If there was a real Hugh Ross T-shirt, I would buy them by the dozen & wear them anywhere & everywhere, just to see all the Ken Ham fans faint on the floor of my friendly neighborhood Wegman’s).

  45. dee wrote:

    Thankfully, Mohler saw the light and discontinued this. But, the Mahaney extended family is still hanging around the seminary

    I don;t think he saw the light as much as the curtain was lifted and even his own followers were not pleased and started asking too many questions. Was there any announcement from SBTS concerning any of it. EVerything we know about the agreement comes from the SGM side, incidently. Mohler is above discussing his decisions with the peasants.

  46. Not a bad history, although it’s sloppy. For example, some things that your timeline places around 1990, like CJ becoming CLC’s Senior Pastor and PDI being started, actually occurred in the early ’80s. And CJ and Larry had been popular conference and Jesus festival speakers since the early 1970s, and have ties to New Frontiers in England going back to around then. Maybe you meant CJ started speaking at Reformed events around 2005. You also confuse PDI with CLC in some places; understandable since CJ was the head of both for over a decade and PDI moved into office space in the CLC building.

  47. A few other aspects of SGM that might be worth noting are their belief in modern day apostles until around 2010, their worship music arm which has produced a few dozen CDs and several songs that are in widespread use in evangelical churches worldwide, and their loose ties to church planting networks in several countries around the world such as India and Myanmar.