Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Martin Luther King Jr. link
Duke Chapel's main tower
Today, a friend and I attended the Stations of the Cross at Duke Chapel. We didn't know what to expect. A live Nativity is the thing that comes the closest to the experience. There were fourteen stations represented by 14 banners. It was held outside of the entrance to the Chapel.
Each station represented a different part of the story of the Crucifixion. As we left one station, the trumpet would play a hymn, and we would all process to the next station. At each station, 4 students would pose in one position representing that station. We would do a responsive reading, directly from the Scripture. The two leaders, one man and one woman, would share a short, provocative thought, and we would be on to the next station.
In this scene, Jesus is being removed from the Cross.
Finally, Jesus was laid in the tomb and we were invited to follow the banners back into the church. However, Jesus was left lying in His tomb on the stone steps of the Chapel. We all had to walk past him.
How many of us ignore him and his sacrifice as we go about our day to day business?
This was one of the most beautiful depictions of the passion of Jesus that I have ever seen. The leaders worked hard to make us feel as if we were part of the crowds that were there that day. Kudos to Duke Chapel.
*****
There has been a concerted effort by some TGC leaders, the authoritarian types, to silence blogs as well as other social media which reveal the painful episodes of abuse within the evangelical church. Perhaps that is because two of their beloved ministries and leaders, Sovereign Grace Ministries (CJ Mahaney) and Mars Hill Church (Mark Driscoll), suffered greatly from the revelations of abuse on social media.
This blog has documented, year after year, the undying devotion of The Gospel™ Coalition leaders to ministries and leaders like these. They, too, have tried to use social media to defend their stances. However, it is pretty hard to justify staying silent about abuse and that is why they have not been terribly successful. Thankfully, most people with hearts get abuse.
Recently, Jared Wilson left his pastorate in a smallish church in Vermont, to become the Director of Content Strategy for Midwestern Seminary. He is now one of the leaders. He wasted no time in going after social media. Maybe it's a requirement for promotion? In an article promoted by TGC Why Not Rather Be Cheated Wilson sounds the alarm. Seemingly condemning anger, he states that good Christians should instead pursue the fruits of the spirit emphasizing gentleness, peace and self control. How nice. That child sex abuse stuff can be pretty darn yucky, can't it?
It seems he accuses those of us who do get mad about the abused of only doing it for our own personal reputation and influence. Can you imagine? We get to stick our necks out to defend the little guy and we are doing this because it helps our reputation? Good night!! That dog don't hunt.
When we become eager to enact God’s wrath through personal vengeance, it’s often because we distrust God’s ability to deal with injustice Himself. Or we distrust Him to do it in a way that satisfies us. When we lash out, fight back, take up zealous causes, angrily pontificate, feud on Facebook, tsk-tsk on Twitter, and berate on blogs, aren’t we, in essence, saying God needs us to set people straight? All too often what we’re really protecting isn’t God’s honor, but our reputation or influence.
In fact, Wilson seems to suggest that he wants us to shut up and wait until Jesus comes back.
The reality is that whatever wrath remains to dispense after the satisfaction of the cross will be dispensed by Jesus Himself upon His return.
Only Jesus should do this, not us.
But He does this, not us
So, stop being a pain in the butt of the church.
And honestly, that’s what some of us really need to do right now: Let. It. Go.
- It took a century for the church to reject racial segregation. Maybe we should have Let. It. Go.
- Reports on child sex abuse on the part of evangelical churches and leaders have sky rocketed. Let. It. Go.
- Some churches impose unjust discipline on their members. Don't warn other people. Let. It. Go.
- Some pastors are making enormous amounts of money and will not tell their contributors what they make. Let. It. Go.
- Some pastors revel in "taking over churches" and calling the ones that were made to leave "wicked and unregenerate." Don't defend those who were rejected. Let. It. Go.
Basically, this sounds like shut up and let Jesus take care of it. Some day, he will take care ft it when he returns. Do not get mad at any leaders, no matter what, especially if it involves someone who likes *our* theology and give us money.
However, the cat is out of the bag and it can't be stuffed back in. Churches are being called out to practice what they supposedly preach. Pastors and church planters jump up and down for people to "give it a try." They advertise in papers, on billboards, on the radio, in mailers, etc. Well, we are listening and looking and we have some thoughts on the matter. Leaders no longer get to control the microphone.
Wilson said something curious.
aren’t we, in essence, saying God needs us to set people straight?
However, doesn't God use us to spread the Gospel, to bring food and medical care to the poor, plant churches, etc. He doesn't need us to do this, does he? Why don't we all just sit back at home, wait for God to work it and Let. It. Go? He could do it all Himself, right? (What are they teaching in seminaries these days?)
Churches and leaders have what they have always wanted. Publicity. Lots of it. When they go public and pretend that they are nice and godly but are really abusive, it is time to report it. I think God gave us the internet for the little guy to speak out just like when Martin Luther used the Gutenberg Press to be a pain in the Pope's side. Maybe, instead of "Here I stand, I can do no other." Luther should have said "I am going to Let. It. Go?" Maybe they are upset at the fact that the little guy now gets to speak out? How many of them have tried suing those who have left bad reviews on Yahoo? (Stupid waste of money-BTW.)
Next week, we will be having a series of articles on Calvary Temple in Sterling Virginia. This appears to be a church which has successfully hidden serious abuse issues until some people decided that enough was enough. Thankfully, those brave people, many of them recipients of the abuse, are fighting to bring justice instead of just Letting. It. Go.
For those of you who believe that Jesus actually wants us to be concerned about justice for the abused, here is an article to get you up to speed. The rest of you can just ignore it and pretend that Jesus wants you to sit back, work on your brackets and leave it up to him.
Luke 4:18.19 ESV
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me
The Via Dolorosa.
All I ever wanted in many cases was to go to a church that didn’t have people who worship John Piper or Mark Driscoll. Is that possible? And then on the other side of the fence there are other churches infatuated with authority, power and growth who are not Neo-Calvinist. That is also a problem.
The reality of the situation is that many of the Nones are people who are created. Going to church should not be this hard or complicated.
BTW…first all! In the spirit of Pope Piper the First I – a man – reclaim my authority and assert my manhood. If you are not complementarian then get behind me Satan! ;-P
His advice is bizarre, yet I have seen vindictive spirits and a wee bit of what seems like unrighteous anger, but careful calling on the carpet of evildoers is not wrong. But, as always, if we want to stand up for the poor (downtrodden, persecuted, you name it), are we merely sitting on our tush (isn’t that the word, Dee?) and writing on blogs or are we out there helping those people? The Go Fund Me for Julie McMahon is a good example of the latter.
I am looking forward to the discussions on Calvary Temple in Sterling, Virginia. I have been horrified by what I have read. It’s like SGM on steroids. The pain, divided families, and wreckage is profoundly disturbing. For all the people involved who are reeling in pain…I hope this can help them draw more national attention to Star Scott. Evil needs to end, families need to be reunited.
Here’s a sampling of what is to come next week.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/15/AR2008111502626.html
aren’t we, in essence, saying God needs us to set people straight? All too often what we’re really protecting isn’t God’s honor, but our reputation or influence.
Projection much? How many of these guys thought it was their God given job (God needed them) to “set people straight” about SGM? I recall people being told not to read survivor blogs or otherwise educate themselves on that issue. I recall these guys defending Mahaney. Piper and Dever weren’t trying to protect his reputation?
Didn’t these guys imply the lawsuit was tossed because of an issue of merit when they failed to disclose it was because of statute of limitations? Were they really protecting God’s honor, or Mahaney’s reputation and influence — and by extension their own?
Why did God appoint Government to bear the sword if he wants us to just let it go? Oh wait, God instituted Government to deal with evil? Aren’t Children’s Services part of that? Curiouser & curiouser.
Wilson’s argument of letting it go, let God deal out the justice, you’re only fighting for your best interest and not God’s, and your distrust in God is no different than what he is saying that bloggers, Facebookers and Tweeters are doing.
He is “fighting back” those who dare to address abuse.
He is “taking up a zealous cause” to stop those who address abuse.
He is “berating on a blog” those who call out leaders who hide abuse.
And, he is “trying to set people straight” instead of God doing that.
“Why Not Rather Be Cheated Wilson sounds the alarm.”
Oh boy. I have heard several mega church leaders use that one on victims. A variation is, “Why not be wronged”? Right out of scripture. Right out of context. And it is sicko.
Of course Jesus wants us to trample on innocents and then turn a blind eye when a victim gets the courage to speak up. Jesus hates it when we seek justice for the oppressed and wronged. That is why He hung on the cross and was resurrected so the leaders could get by with doing evil/wrong to people and then proof text scripture out of context. Jesus calls this sort of thing vengeance and/or “gossip”.
What scares me even more is how many people buy this stuff because they say it. That is where the real work is being done on blogs. That is why they hate them. They are not controlling the message.
Mom!!! When you go to Sunday School and you see the person who Andy Davis of First Baptist Durham, called “wicked and unregenerate” give her a long hug from me. If she wants…I can travel down to Durham and tell Andy Davis that he is “wicked and unregenerate” while I give him a good kick in the ugh… well figure out where! 🙂
Never heard of Jared Wilson before his rabid and incomprehensible defense *on TgC website* of Doug Wilson’s Conquer Colonize Penetrate post. So, if I’m not mistaken, did he not use Social Media to berate all the people who were calling out the misogyny of Doug Wilson? Did he not make his name by being a Company Man with extreme loyalty to the Gospel Glitterati? Was he not richly rewarded for his efforts on their behalf *on social media*? If it weren’t for double standards…
Jesus could have just looked at the fallen world, considered the cost of the Cross, shrugged, and Let. It. Go. Thankfully, Jesus is not Jared Wilson who needs to mature a little bit before he *pontificates* any more about others pontificating on matters he disapproves.
This is a variation on Joe Carter’s “Stop Slandering Christ’s Bride” spiritual blackmail. I’m not an unbeliever, obviously, but I’m guessing that Christ’s name is more dishonored by people covering up abuse in the institutional church than by those exposing it. Jesus failed to follow Jared’s advice when he opted to cleanse the Temple rather than wait for God’s justice.
It is all about power and who has it and who does not. Love, justice, and mercy do not matter. Who anointed Jared the arbiter of taste and propriety?
Just when I think these guys cannot get more self-important, they make me look hopelessly naive.
I think that the entire 9Marks enterprise should consider all cases of church discipline and Let. It. Go.
I am so weary of the self-appointed elites of various types telling the rest of us what to do and what to think and what to say and not say.
Heh. This is like the Kent Hovind Fan Club, who are very upset there are a handful of people out there who publicize the legal documents from Hovind’s cases. They want to set up web pages denouncing a couple other people…and me. I pointed them to my Scientology hate page (which has a picture from 1998 on it). I rather hope they took the hint that putting up a web page with all my real and alleged sins isn’t going to stop me.
The last month or so has been something of a valedictory. Twenty years ago, I got involved in letting people know about the danger that is Scientology. Back in the 1990s, days, weeks would go by without a single article, and then, when Scientology hit the news, it was because Germany was keeping an eye on them and the US State Department didn’t like that at all. (I wish I was lying. I am not.) Now there are so many news articles and videos it’s impossible to keep up with all the press. And the hits just keep on coming.
While Scientology is seriously diminished, it is, at the same time, getting down to the hardcore faithful few and they are being demanded, as never before, to sever all contacts with the Suppressive Persons. These can include close family members. So these have also been hard days for people who quietly left Scientology but made the mistake of “friending” a few more public SPs on Facebook.
To Jared Wilson: Scientology told us back in the day, via one of its attorneys, that we couldn’t discuss its $uper $ekrit $akrid $kripchers on Usenet. Today, we don’t discuss those documents, in fact. Instead, we move straight to Scientology’s crimes. Telling people they cannot look into what you’re doing is just an invitation for such scrutiny. Here, let me give you another example: Jon Krakauer first got interested in the FLDS when he landed in the Twin Towns and was followed around by the God Squad in their souped-up pick-up trucks. Out of that came “Under the Banner of Heaven,” Warren Jeffs’ arrest and conviction, and the slow but steady dismantling of the FLDS. Just sayin’.
“Is this not the fast which I choose, To loosen the bonds of wickedness, To undo the bands of the yoke, And to let the oppressed go free And break every yoke? Isa 58:6
Just the opposite of “Let.It.Go.”
Deebs:
You may not have heard, but Catherine Grove walked away from the Church of Wells (Texas) last night. Her father drove over from Arkansas and took her home early this morning.
http://www.ktre.com/story/28713546/breaking-catherine-grove-escapes-church-of-wells
Is Jared Wilson related to Doug Wilson?
Micah 6:8 (CEV)
The Lord God has told us what is right and what he demands: “See that justice is done, let mercy be your first concern, and humbly obey your God.”
I saw this once, except from the KJV, on a plaque hanging on a wall in somebody’s office one time. Was it a pastor’s office? Well, no, it was a prosecutor’s office. Imagine that.
I don’t think Jared is criticizing what you think he is criticizing. He is after all the one Gospel Coalition blogger to actually name and rebuke Mark Driscoll on the site.
Jesus tossed the temple tables because the merchants were preventing the marginalized form entering – let alone worshipping in – the Court of the Gentiles. And he rebuked the religious leaders for letting it happen. He did this in his humanity, using his muscles and voice.
We have voices too, and we are called to use them in the service of Christ.
jonathan wrote:
No. But they have similar beliefs about women.
Hmmm….if I didn’t know otherwise, I might think that Jared Wilson doesn’t trust Jesus to set people straight.. After all: “If the cross is true, if God is sovereign” then why is Jared Wilson trying to correct people…maybe when he respects his own advice enough to take it, I’ll consider giving it a try…
Did Jared publish this on “the blogs” and then “tweet it” to “tsk-tsk” others?
Honestly, people using the internet to warn others from using the internet just boggles my mind.
Asking people to do the right thing is not berating, it’s called accountability Jared. You might try it some time.
__
“…shut up and wait for Jesus to come?”
(grin)
hahahahahaha
hmmm…
(NOT ON YOUR LIFE)
SKreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch !
“He that comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: He that comes from heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no man receives His testimony. He that has received His testimony has set to His seal that God is true. For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God has given the Spirit to Him without measure. The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him…”
[please read : John 3:31-36]
—> Believe on Him today,
and live forever…
Happy Easter !
Sopy
;~)
—
Just wanted to share a quick update if anyone hasn’t seen it yet. Catherine Groves has escaped the Church of Wells, a cult in TX. http://www.kltv.com/story/28713546/breaking-catherine-grove-escapes-church-of-wells
Wendy Alsup wrote:
Wendy, I appreciate very much your story and your writing. What have I/we missed in Jared’s post? It seemed clear to me that he was calling “the blogs” instruments of personal vengeance rather than instruments of accountability and transparency. He seemed to me to be imputing motives to people like me who speak out, and those motives are not personal vengeance, AFAIK. I am truly distressed by what is happening in the conservative evangelical church which seems to me to have lost the Gospel in pursuit of human doctrines.
I am so very sorry about what you went through at Mars Hill. When did Jared speak out against what was going on there? I haven’t read at TgC site regularly since the SGM/Mahaney fiasco, and I didn’t read Jared much at all before that, so I have missed him disagreeing with the others there.
Thanks again for the many helpful articles you have written.
Wendy Alsup wrote:
Then what is he criticizing?
Wendy Alsup wrote:
I agree Wendy
Margaret wrote:
Could you please explain what you think he meant?
@ Wendy Alsup:
It is very hard for me to know what you are thinking unless you tell me what you believe he is saying. Look at his post and show me where I went wrong. I just reread it and stand by what I think he said by quoting him directly.
@ Mandy:
Wow- I cannot wait to see what happened here.
musicman wrote:
That is what surprised me. Certainly he believes he is using social media properly. However, Jared has had his own picadillos especially in the twitter arena. Here is one. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/23/how-do-the-gospel-coalition-jared-wilson-and-doug-wilson-define-missional/
I just checked out the blog on TGC. There are no comments. Makes me wonder if there are really no comments or if comments not agreeing with blog are moderated.Hmm.
I think he is talking about personal vengeance and not about people trying to stop injustice through making it known on blogs. For example, “When we become eager to enact God’s wrath through personal vengeance,” or “Jesus’ approach to personal wrongs would have us conquer the injustice by embracing its satisfaction at the cross. So instead of attacking the guy who takes our shirt, we offer him our coat, too.” or “Wrath belongs to God, not to us. For this reason, we must keep a close eye on our anger and dwell in the truth of God’s Word daily to provide fertile ground in our hearts for the Spirit to produce the fruit of gentleness, peace, and self-control in us.” I am pretty sure the blog post is about personal sanctification dealing with slights against us as individuals. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I don’t think he is talking about what is implied in the response posted at this site.
I read Wilson’s article, and I’m frankly confused. There isn’t anything remotely Christian in it, and frankly, there isn’t much anyone with an education would take seriously. I wonder if he has a ghost writer? I know blogs can be tough, but it is painfully clear that this article was not thought through before hitting “publish”.
Jeremy wrote:
However, he mentions blogs and tweets. The vast majority of blogs deal with serious issues that affect everyone. And, in some cases, what is perceived to be a personal slight can be an indication of something far more serious.
For example, how 9Marks UCCD treated Todd Wilhelm. This slight exposed a far deeper problem within the 9 Marks system.
Let me tell you all a parable which may or may not be true.
Tweet(general) from a gospel™ BFF: “Did you see the fat person who sang the national anthem. LOL”
Tweeter B who decided, for the first time, to use the Reply button: “Do you think that is a gospel response?”
Tweet from gospel™BFF: “I’m just making a joke.”
Tweeter B: “Some people might find that not so funny.”
Tweet conversation ends.
Tweeter B, a day later, gets an email from Twitter saying Tweeter B’s account was under investigation for harassing behavior due to a report received from another Twitter account holder. Stern Warning.
Tweeter B writes back and requests a full investigation. Received some feedback, Twitter central backs off and Tweeter B decides to Let. It. Go.
Who in this social media exchange sought vengeance?
That parable is very interesting.
“I’m just making a joke” is a lame excuse for inappropriate comments.
Unbelievable in this parable that gospel blogger makes inappropriate rude comment and then files investigation on the person who said that is not a kind comment. Stinks of power and control.
Ali wrote:
And maybe vengeance?
Absolutely vengeance.
@ Jeremy:
So if a grievous injustice is done to person A but those who are supposed to see about it do nothing, and nobody else comes to the defense of person A, then person a must be silent lest he be seen as seeking revenge (rather than justice) and thus labeled as the true culprit. Thus the actual perpetrator of the injustice gets away with it, no investigation and no questions asked. And in some circumstances he goes on to commit the same injustice as a life style of injustice committing.
But in the same circumstance if the appropriate persons look into the issue in the first place and justice is done, then that is well and good because the authorities were not seeking revenge but rather justice. Because after all, the injustice was not done to them but to another, and seeking justice is a good thing in this case.
Now if person or persons C speak up about the injustice done to person A, then they are…well are…Hmmm. Not seeking revenge because it was not done to them. They are demanding that justice be done, which we have already said is a good thing.
So the argument boils down to who it is that gets to determine whether or not justice needs done in certain cases. The argument is not about justice vs revenge but rather about who is in charge.
__
Knock. Knock.
(follow the white rabbit?)
The foundational truths of systematic fundamental Calvinism is embodied in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. which summarizes their religious doctrine.
Yep. (datz right)
—> Ii is a lie.
Huh?
Yep. Fundamental Calvinism is a lie.
Again, fundamental Calvinism is not the truth.
How So?
(simple)
Jesus asks the individual to ‘repent’ and ‘believe’ in Him and receive His gift of eternal life, yet Calvinism in all it’s humble glory states clearly, categorically, and enfatically, that man is completely dead and can do no such thing…
bump.
(That Man can make no such decision, action, or moral choice, he says.)
What?!?
16th century Calvinism, as a system of theology has for over five hundred years, counterdicted Jesus’ words, and made the Master of the universe, out to be a lier?
fun, huh?
The new testament records Jesus as saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” -Mark 1:15 (NASB)
So Jesus’ message is to repent and “believe in the gospel” – the gospel is the good news of Jesus’ substitutionary death that propitiates the wrath of God for all who believe.
Whew !
The Greek word Jesus uses here for ‘believe’ is pisteuo, which means: “to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing).”
O.K. ?
Yep, repent & and believe da good news of Jesus Christ…
Datz da way ta heaven…
SWEET !
(accept no other substitute)
don’t be late.
[Kirrrrrrrrk, I now return you to your regularly scheduled blog program]
ATB
Sopy
—
Nancy wrote:
Indeed! And let me tell you from experience, if you’re not an ‘ordained’ elder you are have no right (in their mind) to determine or judge anything.
@ dee:
Sounds like a case of pastoral embarrassment to me. Couldn’t all the gospel tweeter bffs read B’s reply?
Bridget wrote:
In this parable, gospel™ bffs always believe that their friends are OK.
On another note: A number of the TGC crowd are blocking people left and right. Why? They do not like receiving *icky* responses to their prognostications. That is what real men do.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
But doc, he’s written ten books, or some such amount. Can’t he manage writing a short blog article that’s comprehensible?!
@ dee:
They’ll soon be standing alone in ivory towers with all their adoring subjects waving banners from below. If they aren’t already there.
@ Bridget:
Everyone is writing books these days. How many of them are actually being read? The other day I complained on Twitter that half the tweets are about “Read my awesomely terrific book.”
“When we lash out, fight back, take up zealous causes, angrily pontificate, feud on Facebook, tsk-tsk on Twitter, and berate on blogs, aren’t we, in essence, saying God needs us to set people straight?”
The age old double standard. The gospel leaders can and should do the above to keep their power and position but, when a simple average person uses the World Wide Web to defend an abused person it is considered wrong. The simple average person should just wait on God.
Mandy wrote:
Wells, TX is one strange place. It just made sense a ” cult” set up shop there. I knew a girl who taught in the Wells School. It was such a rural area, there was little if any cell service. There was an oak tree on a hill in which you could get ” some” cell reception on the HS campus. During lunch and conference periods, you could see everyone from the janitor to teachers to the Supt. of Schools trying to make a call. Often with little success.
The First Baptist Church of Wells is the only FBC that I know of that is NOT Southern Baptist.
There was one ” fast food” place in town, a Dairy Queen, and it went bankrupt.
Wells, is an odd place, the one grocery store in town was run by the ” cult.”…( btw my friend no longer works for Wells ISD, she, along with most other teachers work there for only a couple of years, and find new teaching positions, even the Wells natives.)
@ K.D.:
I am currently reading the Texas Monthly article .
http://www.texasmonthly.com/story/is-the-church-of-wells-a-cult/page/0/3
I am actually fascinated by the devotion and interpretation of Calvinism by this cult. I have put it into a draft form because I would love for our readers: Calvinist and not to debate if the theology could go down this road and where it derails from orthodoxy.
Did you read that Catherine told the sheriff after he picked her up that hem and his daughter, re possessed by a demon?
I am overwhelmed by the recent stories. Calvary Temple, which we shall cover next week, more on the Church of Wells, and the long awaited stuff on demons and C Peter Wagner. We need a staff!!!!
Balance seems to be the key.
By that I would say there are times it is downright sinful to Let. It. Go.
And times it is downright sinful NOT to Let. It. Go.
Example would be one abusive pastor we had. At the time he was pastoring and abusing it would have been very sinful to not confront him and stand up to him. However, he no longer pastors. He has seen the error of his previous ways and apologized to those he injured by is abuse of authority. And he vigorously teaches against what he used to do now. In this case, to continue to publish his name and call him and attempt to smear him would be sin.
So I would say to those who want folks to Let. It. Go. : we will, once you repent and make amends.
dee wrote:
IMO the entire TgC enterprise is about wearing the mask of promoting the Gospel while really being a promotion arm of Crossway and its roster of authors. I believe Jared’s post was a promotion for his book which is promo-referenced at the end of the post. I agree with Dr. Fundy that it does not make a comprehensible point, mainly because terms are not defined. I agree with Nancy that the actual point is not about vengeance or forgiveness but rather about who decides the matter at issue. I agree with Bridget that only approved elders have any standing to question anything. And the only elders that are approved are the ones who agree with the Senior Elder who must be obeyed.
@ dee:
Wells isn’t too far from my parents’ hometown. I honestly have not kept up with the local news there in a long time but I remember when Catherine first left her family to join the cult there was a lot of frustration from both her family and the rest of East Texas. She simply could not leave. Dee, if you play around on that website I linked to you should find many more stories about the Church of Wells. I do apologize for my absence here. My husband and I are both working many long hours; earlier this week a grass fire set by a teenager came within 20 feet out our apartment. There is a swamp just beyond our unit that stopped the progression of the fire and I am incredibly grateful for it, mosquitoes and all. 🙂
@ Mandy:
I am so glad to hear from you. How awful about the fire. I am glad that you are well.
As for the mosquitos, I heard that putting up a bat house can help.
Dee,
East Texas, especially what is called ” Deep” East Texas is a ” whole nuther world.”
You can travel into some areas and it is like going back to the 1920s.
I taught in a Deep East Texas school most of my career, and I was hired to try and prep seniors for college….those who were going. And many, ” escaped” as a young lady who now has a degree in Wood Engineering from of all places NC State. ( When I first walked into my room I kept looking at the flag , and something wasn’t quite right. Finally, I counted the stars….only 48. They hadn’t changed the flags since 1959.)
Calvinism is all the rage in many SBC Churches. And on the other side of the coin there is hard core Arminism in the UPC Churches and they are just as plentiful in East Texas.
One of my best friends is UPC, and while she doesn’t believe this, she will tell you they are taught, that if you say a bad word in the middle of a car wreck in which you are killed, your salvation is lost.
Let me tell you how big Calvinism is in the SBC here….As you know, I write a blog and often ” gig” the Calvinists here. Many of my former students who are now little ” preacher boys” and many without ANY formal education, they openly tell people I am not one of the elect….
Perhaps the saddest part is those who leave East Texas also leave all religion…..one of my smartest students now has a law degree from UT-Austin, is a partner with a firm in Dallas.( He grew up SBC) He is convinced hell is not in the hereafter, it is in East Texas.
The young lady with the Wood Engineering degree from NC State, is now an agnostic…and her family were on the front row ( still are) of the local SBC church.
Appears to be yet another example of one using his position of authority to insist that others have one responsibility- submit to those in authority. Would love to see some in authority challenge their “leader peeps” to reflect and consider how they should do a better job of caring for those under their care. Too many times Authoritarian Bullies just want to talk down to others, rather than viewing them as worthy of respect, genuine ‘gospel care and love’ (there, I did it – I used gospel as an adjective; ha). What an incredible moment it would be if any one of these leaders would utter the words “I’m sorry …” Or “I was wrong …” Or “Will you forgive me, I …”! It seems the very heart of the true Gospel (God’s plan for dealing with our sinful rebellion) would include regular hearing of these words from leader and non-leader; yet in my experience the words are rarely heard … and those setting the example (the leaders) are perhaps the most resistant to these self-reflective and honest confessions.
Eagle .mentioned going to churches where they talked about these celebrity type pastors all the time, and wished they wouldn't do that. I never heard of any of them in my churches during the past few years (Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran), until I wandered on to this blog. I would never have returned if I had attended. Maybe it's in my DNA, I am a skeptic in many ways.
Bridget wrote:
Yep on both counts.
hanni wrote:
I am a skeptic as well when it comes to evaluating those who let me know they are in charge.
@ mirele:
Yeah, I thought of you when all that stuff came out this week.
@ K.D.:
So if the problem is hardcore Calvinism and hardcore Arminianism then I think the answer to reiigion is to hold just to the basics and not get into “theology”. Just live the 2 new commandments.
Over the last few years, the gospel coalition have got themselves all in a tizzy about women usurping what they believe to be “masculine” roles.
They’ve written reams and reams of copy, published countless books, formed “councils” for so-called “biblical manhood and womanhood”, invested megadollars in conference after conference, and all in all, sucked millions of man-hours (and woman-hours) of time and attention into this issue. It’s almost as if they believe God needs them to “fix” his church for him.
Enough is enough. Women lead, teach, and preach. They just do. And, for that matter, there are gay Christians. There simply are. I say to the gospel coalition: Stop trying to build God’s church for him and accept that he will build it his way. And if anyone’s getting it wrong, it’s not your business or your problem; Jesus will rectify all that when he returns. Let. It. Go.
NIck Bulbeck wrote:
The unexpected outcome of their constant diatribe is that women have delved deeper into scripture themselves to “see if these things are so” (Acts 17:11) and found them to be hyperbolic and erroneous.
God truly does work all things together for good. 🙂
@ mirele:
Thanks for this update!
Dee,
I see that Jared Wilson will be speaking at The Gospel Coalition's National Conference April 13-15 (which occurs bi-annually).
http://2015.thegospelcoalition.org/speakers
I find the timing of his post quite interesting…
@ NIck Bulbeck:
Thank you for what you said. Yesterday, a man and a woman spoke as we processed the stations of the Cross. How wonderful! Women and men were there that day and all of us must deal with the Cross.Why would we move women aside since they, as well as men, were responsible for the Day.
Last night, at the magnificent Tenebrae service, Dean Luke Powery of Duke Chapel, an African American man spoke the message. But a woman pastor (forgive me for not remembering her name) did the greetings and the prayers. Both men and women of Duke Divinity School did the Scripture readings.
It all was powerful, convicting and beautiful. Not once did I think that God was minimized by having the women speak. The Godhead was powerfully present, because of both the women and men. All of the women spoke in different accents, showing that Christ is followed throughout the world. It did not diminish the Trinity one bit.
An African American male spoke his Scriptures and we all mentioned later that he will be a mesmerizing pastor. Each of the men and women serving up front brought their unique expressions to the remembrance. So awesome.
@ mirele:
Thank you. Yes, I have and have been reading. She is at home with her parents. i believe she was emotionally hurt by her time. She told the sheriff who helped her that he had a demon. It is all so sad. I pray she gets some good counseling.
Godith wrote:
Jesus told us the greatest commandments are summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves.
Godith wrote:
That’s easier said than done….
On other point to make to those who claim this is only about personal vengeance, look at what is said.
“When we lash out, fight back, take up zealous causes, angrily pontificate, feud on Facebook, tsk-tsk on Twitter, and berate on blogs, aren’t we, in essence, saying God needs us to set people straight?”
Note the term “zealous causes.” That does not sound like merely dealing with personal vengeance.
@ dee:
That sounds great. The maundy thursday service at my kids’ church, in addition to a sung mass and stripping of the altar includes foot washing. The priest and the vestry wash the feet of everybody, the entire congregation. I did not go but I heard a description of it.
dee wrote:
Jared further explains what he means in response to a comment left on his web site. It’s worth a read. I don’t believe he means what you may think. At best, what he initially wrote is confusing and he should revise and correct to eliminate any confusion. A few generic type examples to illustrate his points would be helpful. He was an English major in college so he should be able to express his thoughts clearly.
Joe2 wrote:
And has written teb bookd. A blog article shouldn’t be this misunderstood.
@ Bridget:
‘ten books’ – phones, ugh.
@ Bridget:
I hear you!
Joe2 wrote:
I read it. I believe he is backtracking what he wrote here.
“take up zealous causes,”
That is not personal vengeance.
@ Joe2:
He has written a fair amount of things that have “been misunderstood.” And he also knows that he is one that does not let it go with some folks but I will leave it there.
Joe2 wrote:
Same thing happened with his defense of Doug Wilson’s disgusting post. He whined and complained that people misunderstood both him and Doug Wilson, and, instead of recognizing his own failure, he blamed the ones who were questioning him. I’m not buying it this time, either. He’s a wordsmith by trade and has no ground to tell everyone else how to think or what to say. I think a sabbatical from the Gospel Glitterati Groupthink would be helpful.
Gram3 wrote:
Ditto!
If Jared Wilson's bio is to be believed, he worries too much about what people think. If that is indeed the case, then maybe he should stop writing these misguided posts.
http://jaredcwilson.com/bio/
@ Deb:
You remember the little dustup, don’t you? It was that situation that makes me believe that this is just the same old, typical Gospel Coalition. “I hate the blogs, too. Let’s block them all.” tirade. I am beginning to think it is obligatory for every blog poster on that site. They only love their blogs.
@ Deb:
Read his response to comment. Note that he said that abuse should be reported if it is criminal. It should be disciplined if it is not. In his statement, he did not say that we should/could blog about these things if they are concealed within churches. It seems to point to 1. Report to authorities or 2. Report to church leaders.
When these steps are not followed or are stymied, what then? Wait for the Second Coming or expose it?
It is important for our readers to understand that a number of the big cheeses in The Gospel™ Coalition have written a letter, posted at TGC in support of Mahaney and SGM since the exposure of the alleged abuse. It is also to be stressed that Mahaney and Harris stepped down of their own accord according to TGC. It also should be noted that Mahaney is continued to be seen in the company of the TGC leaders. Pictures with him are taken quite proudly and placed on social media.
Now there is an interesting thought. Should Dever and BFFs be commended for using social media to promote their friendship with Mahaney in light of the revelations? Hmmm….lots to ponder.
@ dee:
I don’t see any comments TGC website for this article. Where are you finding the comment thread?
“If we are taught to trust totally and are discouraged from criticizing leaders openly, then we lose the ability to think critically. That is why it is unhealthy to stray from Scripture and teach trusting our leaders. If our leaders don’t want us to be critical of their actions when they are doing something wrong, then we shouldn’t follow these leaders. They are supposed to be servants, not dictators. Leaders need to have humility in order to be able to accept honest criticism.”
Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar, page 61
http://thouarttheman.org/2013/05/17/we-need-a-modern-day-richard-baxter/
“In reply, I am bound to say that the example was singularly ill-chosen. That hymn to Christian love is in the midst of a great polemic passage; it would never have been written if Paul had been opposed to controversy with error in the Church. It was because his soul was stirred within him by a wrong use of the spiritual gifts that he was able to write that glorious hymn. So it is always in the Church. Every really great Christian utterance, it may almost be said, is born in controversy. It is when men have felt compelled to take a stand against error that they have risen to the really great heights in the celebration of truth.”
J. Gresham Machen
“I have tried to model my polemical writings after Martin Luther’s tracts against his theological opponents, of whom there were many. Had he confined his criticism to a strictly academic defense of his 95 theses, he would not be remembered by anyone today except a handful of specialists in church history, who would probably be Roman Catholics. (Have you ever read the 95 theses? Yes, I mean even you seminary professors.) Had Luther persisted stubbornly in a purely academic strategy, he would eventually have been burned at the stake. But he understood the possibilities for radical institutional change that were offered by the printing press, and he pioneered the polemical pamphlet. You can find few examples in subsequent history that match Luther’s tracts for invective, vitriol, and contempt for one’s opponents. I am only a pale imitation of Luther in this regard. Yet the heirs of Luther’s Reformation click their tongues and shake their heads at my style, as if they did not owe their very freedom to criticize me to the social and political effects of Luther’s pamphlets. They act as though they believe that the Reformation was little more than a scheduled debate in the faculty lounge….”
-Gary North, Foreword to “House Divided: The Break-Up of Dispensational Theology
Joining the discussion a little late as I seem to do a lot.
First of all Happy Easter. Christ is Risen. He is Risen indeed.
All I can say is that I am appalled by the poor exegesis (maybe no exegesis is a better way to put this). If this is any representation of how the Gospel Coalition does analysis of scripture then it is no wonder there is so much hypocrisy and misapplication of scripture going on there.
CONTEXT OF PASSAGE
Did this writer not even look at the context of the passage he quoted? To me it is very clear that Paul is specifically talking about lawsuits between Christians. This wasn’t a general statement to apply to all actions. Here is the entire verse that Jared Wilson quotes:
Why is this so hard for someone to see that Paul was referring to lawsuits and not saying that one should allow all wrongs to occur?
This misuse of scripture sounds like what Peter wrote about:
Did Paul commend Timothy to accurately handle the word of God? (II Tim 2:15)
OTHER PASSAGES
Did Jared Wilson not consider other passages of scripture that contradicts his misuse IMO of I Cor 6:7.
Doesn’t Proverbs 31:8-9 say to speak up for the rights of the “mute” and the “unfortunate?”
What about Prov 21:13 about the consequences of shutting your ear to the cry of the poor?
As someone else shared it is also shocking to hear this from the same group that wants to very forcefully practice church discipline. If they believe I Cor 6:7 applies so universally then why practice any church discipline?
Again if this is a representation of how the Gospel Coalition handles scripture and/or how poorly they scrutinize things that are being said then it is now wonder they do the things they do.
Nancy wrote:
Bingo.
@ Bridget:
Click on the link in the post. Scroll down to the black bar that says COMMENTS at the bottom of the post. Click on it. It will bring up the comments. TGC has been playing around with their website. This is one of the changes.
@ dee:
Thanks, Dee. My android seems to have trouble with some blog platforms. The comments don’t show up in a timely manner. This morning was the first time that the box at the bottom showed up. Strange.
Wilson begins by quoting Paul regarding carnal behavior, by defining the kind of anger that is to be put off – wrath, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth. Certainly we agree that malicious slander has no place in conversation, personal or through blog exchanges on the internet. Wilson goes off topic when he references blogs and then just let things go. The internet allows the truth to be shared and horrible abuse to be exposed, spiritual, mental, physical. Abuse is rampant among self-proclaimed preachers who are sometimes nothing but “ravenous wolves, a warning and expression Jesus used, while hardly being carnal, or hardly saying just let it go. Proclaiming the truth, taking up for the oppressed, can save those who otherwise will perish in the Day, the oppressors. I do not think Dee misinterpreted Wilson’s intent to quiet those who speak up against oppression. More and more is being written about the abuse of authoritarian groups. Before the internet, the same practices occurred in relative obscurity, to the detriment of thousands who have been oppressed. I left those types of organizations and am a dedicated Spirit Filled strong believer – where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
Gary North as in Rushdooney’s son in law?
Love the pic of that Gothic spire in the main body of the post!
Way Cool!
@ Todd Wilhelm:
no offense, Todd, but i can’t see North as being in any way defensible. i am no fan of Dominionism.
numo wrote:
I dunno, I can’t get past “On the Jews and Their Lies,” one of Luther’s theological polemics. Given its outsized influence on German attitudes towards Jews and Judaism up through the end of World War II, I wouldn’t be claiming Luther as one of my influences. When he put his mind to it, Luther could be downright nasty.
There is a scene in Lord of The Rings, The Two Towers, where Eomer returns to Edoras and converses with Grima Wormtongue, who has conspired with Saruman to overthrow king Theoden’s mind.
When Eomer shows him proof that orcs from Saruman are ravaging Rohan and it is about to fall, Grima accuses him of bringing these troubles to the king and of being “malcontent” and “warmongering.” Eomer is promptly banished on pain of death, because he speaks and fights for the truth.
Essentially the same dynamic as Jared Wilson’s argument.
Sometimes fiction reveals a lot of truth.
@ Nancy:
It is at the bottom of the page on my letterhead. Do Justice, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly.
Lydia wrote:
Not sure of the family ties, but may well be. I only know of one Gary North.
mirele wrote:
I must admit I am an admirer of Luther, although his comments on the Jews are troubling. I have a book titled “Martin Luther, the Bible, and the Jewish People” which I lookforward to reading.
John wrote:
Thank you for seeing this in LOTR. It is one of my favorite books of all times and there are many truths spoken therein. This is one that I did not see and it is spot on. Thank you.
@ mirele:
Nor can I. I am no fan of that side of Luthet. The synod i belong yo has repudiated it, but some others (LCMS and WELS, to name two) have nevet done so.
It certainly was a horrific screed to begin with, but its legacy is even worse.
@ Todd Wilhelm:
There is much truth in North’s statement. As we have tried to find the truth behind evangelical excess and sin, we have had to do a fair amount of pounding and nailing to the door of the church which is not the internet.
Luther had his issues-not only his view on the Jews but his support of the princes over the oppressed peasants. But, he brilliantly confronted the church and unwittingly became the lightening rod for the Reformation.
Yes, he was flawed in other areas. Perhaps that makes it even more incredible that he got this one thing right, considering that he was mired in the prejudices of his day.
TW wrote:
Gary “Scary Gary” North is not someone, IMO, who is a trustworthy source except perhaps in the broken clock sense. He is Rushdoony’s estranged son-in-law.
@ TW:
It’s him. Rushdoony’s son in law. TheDominionist/Reconstructionist.
@ Ed:
Thank you for your comment. 3 people have said that they do not think I understood Wilson’s post. I have read it again a few times. I am obviously not seeing what they are seeing.
I asked for them to explain why I was in error and have not received any help on the matter except one who said he was speaking about personal vengeance. However, I think they would need to deal with this part of his post
“take up zealous causes”
What in the world is wrong in taking up zealous causes? Jesus himself was viewed as a zealot as he tore down the pillars of religious respectability.
@ dee:
Just because there is truth in that statement of Noth”rth’s does *not* mean anything else he says is trustworthy.
As for On the Jews and Their Lies, i have no idea how many times i have mentioned it (in comments here) as an example of the most vuvirulent anti-semitism imaginable. i have never been able to read more than excerpts, it is so sickening. It is worth noting, however, that Luther wrote it relatively late in life. He had this, imo, completely idiotic notion that once church reform was underway, Jewish people would flovk to xtianity. Ehen they didn’t, he turned hateful, and wrote that.
Gram3 wrote:
Do you know why they are estranged?
@ numo:
Most virulent.
Sorry for typos. Am recovering from oral surgery, and am not feeling particularly shap today.
@ Muff Potter:
Some day, you and Mrs. Muff must come to this area and I shall personally give your a tour. You would love the magnificent organ and the interior which makes you feel you are in a European cathedral.
@ Muff Potter:
PS Google Duke Chapel Interior and click on images.
@ Gram3:
Re. “broken clock sense” – good point.
@ TW:
Well, I’d guess you are familiar with North’s own views, which lots of people (myself included) find terrifying. As in: capital punishment for gay men, “women who lie about their virginity,” women who have abortions and a very long list of supposed capital crimes.
I wish there was an island to which he and his kind could go, to create their own closed society withot attempting to either influence US political processes or to harm those whom the hate (my list sbove is by no means exhaustive).
@ mirele:
I wouldn’t call it a “theological polemmic.” It’s more like “i can do even worse than those fools who are going to write the Protocols of the Elders of Zion” foaming at the mouth rant.
I sometimes wonder if he had gone somewhat off his rocker by the time he wrote it, not that it excuses what he said or sid. His screed on the Peasants’ Revolt is awful, too.
@ TW:
Read what Luther says about women , too, sometime.
@ numo:
Of other suppoeed capital crimes.
numo wrote:
And I am eternally grateful that the old dead white men who founded this great nation of ours took steps to ensure that these kinds of men can never bring their schemes to fruition.
@ Muff Potter:
I fear otherwise, but that’s probably a discussion for another day.
dee wrote:
I don’t remember the particulars, if I ever knew them, but I can imagine a titanic clash of egos could well have been part of it. Reconstructionism was not developed and promoted by men lacking in self-confidence. Putting it mildly.
@ Gram3:
I’ve tried many times to find the particulars and I can’t. Maybe no one wants the rest of us to know why…
I must be in the minority, I think he has a point. Websites like this should be mindful of how they present themselves if for any reason so as not to be another Jen Epstein.
@ Muff Potter, @ numo:
Given the background of the first officially announced Republican presidential hopeful, I’m a bit concerned. But seeing the backlash in Indiana the other week, I hold onto a sliver of hope that he doesn’t have much of a chance… :-\
Jonathan wrote:
I have a couple of questions since I did not fully understand your comment. I don’t do well with cryptic.
1. What do you mean by “websites like this?”
2. What might we “not be mindful of” that you think we should “be mindful of?”
3. And what does this have to do with Jen Epstein?
@ Jonathan:
I am totally confused when so much is so cryptic. Jared is cryptic and he makes a living as a public communicator. My experience with this sort of vagueness is that it is used as a shame/control tactic by a person who either has power or perceives their authority/position as rightness of thought. That is the typical result.
He actually sounds no different than emergent Tony Jones and Progressives like Rachel Held Evans, Brian McLaren, etc when it comes to information they would rather be kept secret concerning abuse of power from those they support. I have found no end to the irony that the emergent/progressive leadership is really no different than the evangelical right wing when you strip away the “doctrines”. Image and perception is how they make their living. They sell Jesus for fame and profit and they don’t care who it hurts.
It all boils down to a simple premise: They want to control information because it is about their celebrity/image. And when they cannot control the information/message they use shame tactics and sometimes even worse to keep wrongs secret.
Jonathan wrote:
Yes, you are in the minority, and I agree with you. He clarified his post in the comments section under his posts, but a lot of people are not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and thus, prove his points.
” Shut Up About Injustice and Let. It. Go” Where would we all be if Martin Luther took that advise??
Datenite Doug wrote:
How many times does one expect the benefit of the doubt after seeing a pattern over a long period of time?
Lydia wrote:
“70 x 7” But, you probably knew that…
@ Josh:
I wish you guys would not go there. It is unfair to some of us who see the current administration/party as socialists who also want to run our lives because we are too stupid to make right decisions and now the IRS will be penalizing us for not buying overly expensive health insurance with very high deductables. But if we respond to these sorts of comments then we are being “political”.
Datenite Doug wrote:
So you believe that passage means sin all you want for the believer? Or that it means never question the very public believers who write for public consumption? That seems a rather shallow interpretation.
FYI..here is the latest post. 🙂
https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/an-open-letter-to-archie-griffin-2/
Lydia wrote:
Maybe he is just growing, and he honestly was trying to make a devotional point about the desire to defend one’s self too quickly. And maybe, he ought to be given the benefit of the doubt.
What does forgive 70 X 7 have to do with benefit of the doubt? It is about forgiveness. It does not say forgive and restore, or forgive and change your belief structure about the offense, and it does not say forgive and then trust the person to never to it again. Obviously it is not about benefit of the doubt or there would be no need for 70 X 7. Once would be enough for the person to change their ways. Forgiveness is commanded. Trust is earned. Benefit of the doubt is how child sex offenders get open doors to repeat offend.
@ Datenite Doug:
He is “growing” in public, setting himself up as a Christian “teacher” to be read and believed. Seems he has been “growing” for a long time, then.
The blog owners here invite disagreement and encourage discussion on disagreements. Jared tweets about a fat singer and is “disagreed with” on twitter from a Christian perspective and has the person’s twitter account shut down for harassment or whatever he termed it, I cannot remember. I would think that would make your own point about “the desire to defend oneself too quickly”.
I would call it extremely immature, thin skinned and proof of a lack of credibility. And that is just ONE instance. I really don’t see much of a difference in how Mark Driscoll behaved publicly. But that seems to be the norm these days in Christendom with what is posing as its leaders.
I am hopeful more followers of these guys will be “growing” away from that sort of behavior.
dee wrote:
Sorry for being so cryptic. That wasn’t’ my intention at all
1. Whistleblowers.
2. For the most part all of your articles have been very good. I also get the feel that you really want to hold these people accountable because there is an obvious lack of justice inside some of the denominations. If that’s your real motivation great, keep up the good work. The internet is the modern equivalent of the Guttenberg printing press.
On the other hand you have in the past posted some really bad articles. The only one that comes to mind is that one about the OPC. That was nothing more than a hit piece by an uninformed individual. Not once did anyone actually deal with an official teaching of the denomination. Very poor writing on the part of this website but I’ll chalk it up to being a fluke.
3. I’m sure you know Jen Epstein’s history, I hope I don’t have to go into detail about her past shenanigans. I believe her collusion with Peter Kershaw has put a big blemish on anyone’s attempt to hold protestant wrong doers to account. Let’s face it, she was the raison d’etre for the beginnings of this movement. Because of her the bar has be raised very high. To your credit and for the most part you’ve met the requirements and have left very little room for anyone to argue against the articles published on this website. That goes for the Spiritual Sounding board as well.
That’s what I was trying to get at.
Lydia wrote:
The current administration is not socialist and unfortunately IMO is not even progressive. It is what used to be called moderate Republican.
After I divorced my first husband for abuse, I got three additional years of the health insurance I had through his company through COBRA and I paid for it. Then the company was allowed to drop me even though I willing to pay individual rates rather than the group rates. I was unable to get coverage from another insurance company. For the first time since my birth, I was without health inaurance. I was not too stupid to get it, I was just too old. Obamacare is a godsend for people like me.
It is not that I want to debate politics on Christian blogs but I have gotten very tired of being told by fellow Evangelicals over the last thirty years that I cannot possibly be a Christian because of my political beliefs and I feel the need to let folks know there are Christians like me out there.
Datenite Doug wrote:
That verse is about sin and repentance. It specifically speaks of someone asking for forgiveness and a believer needing to forgive. Nancy covered the rest of the subject nicely.
How many times have you seen anyone from the Gospel Glitteria actually ask for forgiveness? They never seem to see the need as far as I can tell.
Jared seems to have done a poor job of communicating what he meant. He seems to be making some illogical jumps to conclusions. And, yes, write it in first person if you are describing yourself and your motives.
Bridget wrote:
Actually, I see it as a call to live a life of forgiveness because I have been forgiven, and Jesus saying that there are no limits on God’s forgiveness. You can’t forgive someone unless you give them the benefit of the doubt, and there is always doubt in every human interaction.
I agree with those who saw what he wrote differently, that’s all.
@ Marsha:
Marsha (and all), i owe you an apology, insofar as i am the one who started the political discussion on this thread. The Deebs do not want it happening here, seeing as religion is contentious enough.
Datenite Doug wrote:
??? You keep ignoring “patterns” of behavior. Forgiveness does not really apply in this situation anyway. What is there to forgive? Can you be specific and elaborate what is to be forgiven? Your definition of forgiveness seems to mean we don’t publicly disagree with what public teachers say. YOu seem to be saying Jared is given a pass to say whatever he wants but I do not see “forgiveness” in his words to bloggers he disagrees with.
CJ Mahaney, one of the spiritual abusers exonerated and promoted by the TGC, also used this silly brand of “forgiveness” with molesters of children. The molested children were told they must forgive their molester. (as in forgive and forget) so the molester could go free.
Most of that movement has a very strange understanding of forgiveness. It seems to be used for covering over wrong doing and even heinous evil. I seriously doubt that is what Jesus was talking about among “believers”.
@ Marsha:
Collectivist, then? I am a libertarian and do not think your political beliefs have anything to do with following Christ. But I think that “idea” keeps being brought up in this forum with the left wing. As in progressive politics is more “Christian” to some here. Same as what the right wing does. I do not see a governmental oligarchy running my life and making choices for me as more “Christian”. I went without health insurance for 5 years so feel your pain.
@ Steve240:
Thank you for this clarification. I found it helpful.
Lydia wrote:
Forgiveness applies in every situation, in every human interaction, in my view. If it doesn’t, then no one can be forgiven. People who write blogs, this one or that one, can be forgiven for being ignorant, for example, as well as people who comment.
If the man who abused me (not rhetorical) cannot be forgiven, then neither can I. And it is absolutely imperative that everyone who has been abused is led to the place of forgiving their abuser. If Jesus’ cross means anything, it means that all sin has been atoned for, including patterns of behavior that we might find objectionable at best and hideous at worst. This is the primary difference between true Biblical Christianity and natural religion.
Giving someone the benefit of the doubt, especially when they write something and then explain it further, is loving and kind in light of the love and grace that has been shown to me (us) via Jesus’ sacrifice in my (our) place. It is the first step in understanding someone, especially when we find ourselves at odds with one another often.
In my view, the author of this post here was a little too quick on the draw with criticism, and would have done better to interact with JW on his blog since he has a comments section. My opinion is that the criticism here misses the point, and actually helps to make the point.
Datenite Doug wrote:
I read those comments. They did not explain this. This does not sound like personal vengeance to me.
“take up zealous causes”
There are those who would say that this blog is vengeful since our first exposure to child sex abuse handled poorly by a church was one in which the two of us were involved in standing up for a young manned his family who were harmed.
Although that experience was illuminating, I would say that 6 years on the job, looking at abuse, getting threats that we are defaming ministries, etc. proves that we are not in the personal vengeance business.
mirele wrote:
Yes, definitely. He wrote some very important truths, but he also spread some terrible lies.
Luther’s insults are only funny if you can forget that they had real consequences.
We also must not forget that the late 15th century was – as one writer has called it – an age of general boorishness. Luther called the catholic theologian Dr. Eck “Dreck” (dirt), the catholics called him – not completely without justification – the “obese flesh of Wittenberg” (Das feiste Fleisch zu Wittenberg).
Disclosure: I am Lutheran.
Actually, things will only change for the better if we are NOT tribal, if we are not afraid to criticise within our own tribe. And as Christians, all churches and their leaders are within our own tribe.
What I don’t get about American churches as well as American politics since the 1980 this evil fascination with leadership, the need for great leaders.
In my language, the word for leader is “Führer”. You will understand my scepticism concerning too much leadership.
@ Datenite Doug:
I take it that your are not a calvinist, then, because they do think that some people are not forgiven (those who are not the elect.) And for that matter, the bible does not say that everything is forgiven by God, for example blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Nor did Jesus say that the adulterous spouse must not only be forgiven but henceforth given the benefit of the doubt- he permitted divorce in that case. And there is the matter of the discussion of millstone therapy for some people. And there is all Jesus said about eternal punishment and alienation from God for some people. Paul excommunicated somebody and there is an admonition at one point to turn somebody over to satan. Of course, there is the idea that Judas is saved and some even say a saint; I withhold a comment on that.
But to say that if all sins are not forgiven (apparently automatically by the cross) then no sins are forgiven is not found in scripture.
And what I am saying has nothing to do with this specific post.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Jared Wilson and I have communicated in the past. And no, I do not have to call each and every pastor/leader/whatever who uses social media to express an opinion. The moment that someone uses social media to blast their thoughts around, as I do, he should expect the appropriate response which is public.
Also, I am not responsible for what anyone who tags me in a Tweet says. Only my tweets reflect my interest.
if anyone has issues with what I say, they are welcome to blog it, post it, put it on a billboard, do a radio program on it, write a letter to my mother or try to find out who my pastor is and write him or her a letter.
I would not be insulted. In fact, had I done a poor job in explaining myself in a public posting, I would be thrilled that someone saw fit to correct me in public. In fact, a couple of times in which we screwed up, we thanked those who lets us know that we did so on our blog.
That is called standing the courage of one’s convictions and owning up to one’s less then stellar thoughts. If two women can have the moxie to stand up and accept critique, so can the guys.
Datenite Doug wrote:
What happens if they do not?
dee wrote:
I realize that. But your title reads: “Jared Wilson at The Gospel Coalition: Shut Up About Injustice and Let. It. Go”
Did you try to interact with him and ask him if that was what he meant before you wrote your post? It seems to me that you have keyed in on a couple of phrases and decided what he meant by them, in spite of the fact that he clarifies that his post is not about ignoring abuse in the church at all, says that it is adapted from one of his books, and is more about personal responses to personal interactions.
If the guy comes out and clarifies what he meant by what he said, then doesn’t he deserve the benefit of the doubt just like you would if you came out and clarified what you said? That seems fair to me.
From my seat it looks like you just don’t like the guy and what he represents, & no no matter what he says it would be wrong. Would it really be that difficult to ask him about it?
Lydia wrote:
Thank you for reminding us of that fact. Do you remember that the supposed pastor had mom pull the 3 year old kid out from under the chair because she was scared of the man who had abused her?
numo wrote:
Yep-I get in trouble enough.
Datenite Doug wrote:
What if there is no doubt that the pedophile molested 100 kids? Does he get the benefit of the doubt as well?
Bridget wrote:
Darn straight.
Everybody….quit sending this man money to pay his salary. Let Jesus do it.
Datenite Doug wrote:
It does not clarify it all for me as I have now said in at three comments. Once again *zealous causes.*
Once again, he took to social media to publicly express his opinions. I get to respond publicly.
justabeliever wrote:
That is another way to Let. It. Go.
dee wrote:
Yes, but not to him directly. Why not? His blog is public, and the comments are public. Why not see if he would clarify it to you directly? Publicly? It might be a golden opportunity.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Really. You know this? Good night!
This is not a personal vendetta but an observation about TGC’s not infrequent posts on bad people who write bad blogs, etc. You can read the 6 years of this blog’s posts on certain groups going after blogging. In fact, one of the first ones we wrote was in August 2009 (old formatting but readable)
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/08/06/blogging-on-churches-gone-wrong/
Since that time we have followed all sorts of issues about the claimed evils of blogging written by those who use social media to tell people to not use social media to discuss problems. We have followed lawsuits, commentary, etc. Wilson’s was just one more stab into this subject.
if tomorrow, Phillip Yancey, whom I love, wrote a hit piece on blogging, I would cover it.
Now, because we allow comments that critique our posts, our ideas and even our cute shoes, feel free to continue to comment. Its OK. However, you are wrong about me not liking Jared. In fact, I have complimented as well as critiqued him in the past.
@ Datenite Doug:
There are some people who won’t be forgiven: those who refuse to forgive others. The Lord’s Prayer said it. So I agree forgiveness applies to all interactions. I don’t think it is easy to forgive but it is necessary according to Christ.
dee wrote:
I didn’t say you don’t like Jared. I said “it looks like you just don’t like the guy”.
See? You get to clarify what you meant, and it’s all good.
jonathan wrote:
I have got a thing about the difficulties of caring for the chronically ill and disabled. I was a nurse and I have had some experience with those difficulties with my father who had Alzheimers and a daughter who experienced a brain tumor. I am not terribly impressed with many churches which do not offer the spiritual support for both the patient and their families.
If you are referring to the trial about a pastor who didn’t get his wife to church enough, I found that absolutely fascinating.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/02/20/women-and-the-disabled-on-trial-in-the-orthodox-presbyterian-church-no-they-dont-get-it/
If you are referring to this post
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/02/23/understanding-the-opc-and-their-pastors-who-hold-the-keys-a-guest-post/
It was written by one woman who had spent years in that system. years ago, we decided to encourage people to share their experiences and thoughts about churches, etc with which they have been affiliated. Even if they may be in error on some of their points, it is far more important to explore why they felt that way. If she feels this way, you can be sure others do as well and perhaps the denomination needs to figure out how to better express their beliefs.
I have a suggestion for you. If you would like to present an opposing POV, we would be happy to post it! Email us.
@ Datenite Doug:
If Jared would like to write a post for TWW in which he explains what he meant, I would be happy to post it.
dee wrote:
Let me see if I can remember. Wasn’t it benefit of the doubt that some bishops used to just transfer some priests from place to place? That did not turn out too well if I recall.
dee wrote:
So what is it about social media that people just don’t talk to each other? Why not just go over there and ask him, or contact him via email or some other method? Is it just assumed that he will read this post and make his way down to that comment and call you? Seriously. Why not just ask him?
Nancy wrote:
That is what TGC gave to Sovereign Grace Ministries as well.
Datenite Doug wrote:
I did try to contact him once.I don’t have time to deal with another *report.* I’ll leave it at that.
dee wrote:
I know for a fact that the man who molested me molested other children. Yes, he get’s the benefit of the doubt and he receives forgiveness.
dee wrote:
Could you please answer this question? I am thinking a lot about grace these days.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Can you explain the *benefit of the doubt* then because to me that would mean that you think he might not have known what he was doing was wrong or even that the did not do it?
@ dee:
Dee…on Saturday I was checking my Facebook feed and I saw a discussion with Stephen Altorege. Jared Wilson jumped into the discussion and started to get into it. I looked at Jared Wilson’s Facebook page and I used messenger to send him this post you wrote while asking if he had a comment or is Jared going to Let.It.Go.
Then as I noticed he liked John Piper I sent him my post at my blog on my story of my Mom’s pancreatic cancer and John Piper.
These are grown men…if they can’t take the criticism then they should get out of the business.
@ Datenite Doug:
See my post Datenight…I sent this post to Jared Wilson directly. Jared is a grown man last I checked. He’s not going through puberty…and he should be able to take the criticism of a female.
Godith wrote:
I agree with you that is said in the Bible. However, are you saying that unforgiveness is the unforgivable sin?
This is why I believe that Jesus was teaching us how deep our sin goes as opposed to giving us a list of unforgivable sin. If you lust, you have committed adultery. If you do not care for the poor, you will not enter the kingdom of God.
I believe that Jesus was pointing us to the Cross and our need for grace. And just in case we thought we were doing pretty darn good, like some of the Pharisees and we didn’t need such forgiveness, he showed us once and for all how deep our sin goes.
In fact, that is the freedom we have in Christ. If we cannot forgive the person who is about to kill us, we are still forgiven. Such forgiveness is predicated on our inability to do it all well.
Datenite Doug wrote:
He, hopefully, also received consequences (jail time) and was banned from contact with children. Forgiveness does not mean blind trust.
FYI – TGC website is known for not posting comments that don’t agree with their perspectives. They often don’t give the benefit of the doubt to honest inquiries. And just so you know, many commentors here have interacted with Jared Wilson online.
As someone who evaluated the effectiveness of programs with juvenile and adult offenders for many years, I can tell you that forgiveness without consequences does the offender no good whatsoever. And while God forgives our sins in no way does the Bible suggest that this should keep us out of prison or restitution programs or off probation with restrictive conditions. And He doesn’t remove the memory of what we did from others.
Think about this. Let’s say your teenager graffitis your neighbor’s house. What would be the best way for you and the neighbor to handle this to prevent more of this kind of behavior? Have him ask for and receive forgiveness and the benefit of the doubt? Or have him ask for forgiveness, paint the house, and receive forgiveness?
Another issue is temptation. If my neighbor has stolen in the past, I won’t be choosing her to water my plants while I am away. It is not fair to put temptation in her way.
dee wrote:
From my perspective I do not know what motivated or drove that man to do what he did. I only know that he did what he did to me and other children. So I do not have all of the evidence, or all of the facts in spite of all of the research I have read on the subject. My rational mind says that he was evil and should have been punished unmercifully for what he did. Motivation has nothing to do with it.
But the cross tells me that I must forgive him because I have been forgiven. God tells me that we (he and I) are in the same moment of crisis and have the same greatest need. Because God has demonstrated His love for all people through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, he and I can receive God’s love by faith. We are equals.
The only way I can reconcile what he did is to give him the benefit of the doubt in that sin and death captured him in the same way that it captured me, but manifest itself differently. I am not God. I do not have all of the facts. I do not know what went into the recipe that made him who he was other than to say that without Christ both he and I would be standing next to each other equally guilty.
So he gets the benefit of the doubt, from me, and forgiveness. Regardless of his response. In that way, I have to let.it.go. If I do not, then sin and death will eat me alive. If I retain his sin in my life, it destroys me. I have to do this every day, every time it comes to mind. 70 x 7.
Hopefully this helps explain where I am coming from. The cross changes everything.
@ dee:
I do agree with you. A forgiving attitude is a Christian attitude. I think people who steadfastly refuse to forgive someone really 1. either hasn’t seen their own sinfulness clearly and/or 2. hasn’t experience the grace of God. If we die having not forgiven someone, but having a forgiving attitude in general, of course it is covered by Christ’s blood. There are many things we do daily that are wrong and we ignore or don’t even realize them as wrong. I completely disagree with the SGM churches/pastors telling kids were who abused to go and forgive their abusers. In time, with understanding and healing, I would hope they can do so, but not as abused kids still reeling from abuse. The much discussed “unforgiveable sin” seems to me to be scorning and refusing the blood of Christ shed for your salvation. Thus, those who do not trust in Christ, choose life without Him and (as is so often quoted) “the doors to hell are locked on the inside”. A choice.
dee wrote:
From a practical standpoint, if they do not forgive then I believe that the stress of carrying someones sin against them will manifest itself in very destructive and unhealthy (physically and spiritually) ways.
Theologically, God gives grace because even in our forgiveness we do not forgive perfectly. Jesus told some that if they did not forgive from the heart, they would not be forgiven. That sets up an impossible standard of performance that we could never attain. Believing is the only thing necessary for eternal life and adoption by God into His family. Grace is where we stand once we have believed. Grace covers all our imperfect living. We are saved by grace through faith. Since that is true, then we extend grace to others and forgive them imperfectly.
It is imperative, imo, for peace to be experienced more fully. Not a requirement for salvation. But critical for spiritual health. I have seen and experienced the opposite.
Bridget wrote:
So what you telling me is that if I liked his post I should just chalk it up to the proverbial “blind squirrel finding an acorn now and then”?
Datenite Doug wrote:
I know to what she is referring. No, she is not saying that. She, like me, has let some things go.
dee wrote:
Ok, but seriously, will you be able to “let it go” when Wisconsin beats Duke tonight?
🙂
Datenite Doug wrote:
God is impressed with Monuts-the best donuts in the world and found near the campus. Remember that when Duke wins. It’s all about the donuts 🙂
@ Datenite Doug:
HA!!!! As someone who lived in Wisconsin for years (Marquette alum…and I have the student loan debt that is the equivalent of the national debt of El Salvador to prove it! 😛 ) I will be cheering for Wisconsin!
Well, if it is absolutely necessary to take a stand on something of earthshaking importance, Go Duke!!!
Note to Nick: Now that it is Apr 6, March Madness will come to it’s conclusion at the completion of the NCAA Division 1 Mens Basketball Championship Game, a sporting event that reduces soccer (however it is spelled) to insignificance. Go Duke!
Eagle wrote:
Wisconsin is predestined to win! God wills it!
Datenite Doug wrote:
Although I’m rootin for Wisconsin, I’m not findin God’s will for BB anywhere in scripture 😉
Datenite Doug wrote:
I wasn’t telling you how to interpret Jared’s article at all. I was giving you information about some other interactions with Jared and TGC website. Many of the pastors who post there seem to think that what they write is unquestionable. Some don’t take any comments.
@ Datenite Doug:
@ Eagle:
They will not win because it sleets in the month of May there. That is proof that the devil is behind Wisconsin. Remember that Bible verse “When hell freezes over.” (I know its in there somewhere.)
oldJohnJ wrote:
If you are behind it Duke, they will win.
Bridget wrote:
Lost Book of Bo 8:1-2 (Slight paraphrase)
This is what he showed me: a basket of ripe fruit. 2 “What do you see?” he asked.
“A basket of ripe fruit,” I answered. (obviously 3 pointers)(And prophecy regarding James Naismith who nailed a peach basket to a balcony in 1891, and the NCAA Championship Game was born)
Then he said to me, “The time is ripe for my people Wisconsin; I will neglect them no longer. The will beat Duke.”
And there was much rejoicing.
Hmm… so very much not into BB, but here’s my predictiin:
One team will win. The other will lose.
😉
Datenite Doug wrote:
and gnashing of teeth. Just not sure whose.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Why is this such an issue? Did Jared come to me or any other non-hierarchical male before he said, publicly, that we want to be dominated and conquered, penetrated and colonized? I don’t believe he did. Many, many people commented on what a jerk he was being, but that didn’t make him think at all. He didn’t apologize, he just disappeared it from his blog as if he had never done anything wrong.
Dee owes him nothing. Zip. Zero. Nada. She is allowed to comment publicly on his public commentary on her blog, on his blog, on Twitter or wherever *without* having any duty to go onto his turf which is highly moderated and where the comments are curated.
I think you need to let this line of argument go. It makes no sense unless one presupposes that Jared Wilson has some privilege of commentary that Dee does not have. As it stands now in Gospel Glitterati circles, the pewpeons are *not* allowed to question or comment. This I know from first-hand experience. Asked a question *in private* and got put under a shunning order. That is the kind of authoritarianism that Jared has shown and that you seem to want to defend.
Hmmm. So we should just shut up and let Jesus handle it, eh?
How does Jesus usually handle things on earth? If only there was a system in place “bearing the sword” on behalf of justice that was God-appointed. Hmm. What they want to do is dodge God’s appointed system of justice by silencing victims and their advocates, and wait for the “righteous judgment of Christ”. You think your exposure is bad on this earth? How about (by their beliefs) your exposure to His unflinching gaze in the judgment when you’ve trampled the innocent and weak underfoot “in His name”? How’s that for exposure? And you’re whining about blogs? Gimme a break, SGM.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Yes, but the cross does not change everything right away. If I choose to give someone the benefit of the doubt and don’t report child molestation and then that person goes on to molest other children, how is my silence not a sin against those children who would otherwise not have been molested? That is pretty much what happened in the Morales case.
You have a very romantic view of sin and forgiveness, IMO.
Gram3 wrote:
I never said it wasn’t, and that’s not what I was talking about. I think I have a Biblical view of sin and forgiveness. The cross changes everything, or it changes nothing.
@ Datenite Doug:
Sometimes, people are unable to forgive someone. Even the early church struggled with this when some people signed that they would worship Caesar as well as Jesus in order save the life of a child or even themselves.
After the persecution, some Christian refused to forgive them and would not let them back in the church since some of those Christians had lost their children and family members who would not cave.
We are all different with differing strengths, emotions, pain, etc. We know that some Christians commit suicide because they cannot bear the emotional pain any longer where as others, when confronted wit similar circumstances seem to sail through.
I’ve been around a long time and have met people who have said that had forgiven their abusers. However, the longer I talk with them, the more I realize that some of them have said the words because they knew they should but deep down inside, hadn’t really fully gotten there.. And, I do not blame them. I, too, have been hurt in my life and I know how hard it was to come to peace with certain situations.
The most important thing we can do for the abused is to be their friends, always be there for them and do not force any proscriptions on them because that is just what their abuser did. Then let them progress in their Christian walk, even if it means they ever get to your point.
I also have found that some people who have trouble with forgiveness shine in other areas like caring for the downtrodden. They mat do it better than others who might forgive more easily. I have watched people mired in poverty and angry at someone who hurt them at the same time give their last penny away to someone poorer than themselves. And in that service they find peace.
Datenite Doug wrote:
That is a nice sentiment and I believe it to be true. However, we are a people in process and the Cross does not change us all immediately.
@ Eagle:
God has already chosen the point spread. He does that so it will teach everyone a lesson. Who wins and by how much is for his ultimate glory.
dee wrote:
Well, I think that one of the reasons it does not change people immediately is because a lot of churches do not have a very well developed theology of the cross that has any practical application. Or their theology of the cross is purely theoretical, or legal. Or they are fixated on a mixture of law and grace, which is a performance based belief system void of any power.
Gram3 wrote:
Btw, I respectfully disagree. Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ does change everything right away. I received eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit. I am secure In Christ and In the Father. I am seated in the heavenly places In Christ. I have passed from death to life, crossed over as it were, so that I will never die. I have been set free from the law. Set free from the penalty, power, and presence of sin in God’s eyes. Everything changes. Maybe we don’t really know who we are In Christ? Maybe we are victims of identity theft.
We progress in sanctification, but from God’s perspective everything has indeed changed. That’s what I tell people anyway.
@ Datenite Doug:
i would venture to guess that the vast majority of readers here know they are saved, not through works, but through the work of Jesus. We are forgiven. Most would also agree that the law only pointed to our inability to live up to it.
Are you discussing our position of holiness due to the sacrifice of Jesus? Positionally holy yet functionally sinners, right?
When you say everything, however, I do not know to what you are referring? My position? My forgiveness? I still sin and the longer I am a Christian the more aware I am of sins that lurk below the surface as well as the ones staring me in the face.
I guess I am confused to what you are referring.
Datenite Doug wrote:
Really? Jesus conquered death on the cross. I expect to die just as I have watched people I love die. Is the cross of no avail, then? Again, we are still in the “not yet.” That calls for wisdom and not black and white binary thinking like Jared exhibits.
I really am missing your point. But I have had a big and personal sample of Jared’s school of thought. He is not a spiritual authority, and you have no ground to scold Dee for not going over to his blog to ask him about his post. IMO he showed what he was about with the Doug Wilson incident just as TgC and T4g showed what they were all about with the Mahaney debacle.
@ Datenite Doug:
I think we all use church lingo and think that everyone understands what we mean. In a situation dealing with position, sin , sanctification, etc., we need to make sure that we are saying precisely what we mean.
If you are discussing our position before Christ, then I agree. If you are discussing that a drug addict is immediately healed and sins no more in other areas, then I disagree.
@ Datenite Doug:
Datenite Doug wrote:
The only ones who have tried to steal my identity in Christ and obscure who I am “in Christ” are people who think just like Jared and Doug Wilson and the Gospel Glitterati. They want to impose another Law, hierarchy and authoritarianism, over people for whom Christ died and whom Christ has made full heirs and priests.
I pray that you are not a pastor, because your view of “the Cross” is very abstract. Do you believe in the Gendered Gospel? Didn’t Christ’s death on the cross remove the sin and shame of being born a woman?
@ Datenite Doug:
Sorry to leave one more comment but I want to give you an example of lingo. When you say that the Cross “changes everything”, imagine how outside observers would view that.
When they see the church stonewalling in cases of pedophilia, why would they think the Cross changes everything? Often the church looks no better, and sometimes even worse, than secular institutions.
@ Datenite Doug:
False prophet??
@ Lydia:
I said nothing to indicate my feelings about the present administration, good or bad (if you wanted to know, well, “it’s complicated”). But if thinking that the candidate in question, whose background throws up “Reconstructionist” flags right and left, makes me a liberal, then so be it – I’ll wear the label with pride. I brought it up because we took a brief sidetrack into the world of “could a Reconstructionist get elected?” I apologize for dragging us further off topic, but I do not apologize for thinking that said candidate (n.b.: not that entire party) is bat guano crazy.
Back to the other much more relevant side track we’re on now… It’s not clear to me, because either I skimmed over it or it wasn’t said, but does “forgiving a child molester” mean “not reporting them to the civil authorities”? Saying that one should “forgive” and “let it go” in that case leaves the meaning opaque. I can’t deny, I’m simply incredulous at the notion that a person who has done such acts should get “the benefit of the doubt,” whatever that means, or at least not until they’re safely incarcerated…
Bridget wrote:
No. Merely proof that God’s will can be thwarted. 😉
Now it’s time to catch up with Mr. Selfridge…
Gram3 wrote:
It is interesting how people react to the idea that the Cross changes everything. Most “Christians” I say that to are either dumbfounded and haven’t got a clue what I am talking about, or they react negatively. Most unbelievers ask to hear more.
The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the Christ, is the hinge on which everything has turned, turns now, and will turn in the future. Every one must pass by the cross and the empty tomb and come to terms with it’s significance in a very real, personal way. They must wrestle with God at that site, metaphorically speaking. It speaks to everyone and calls out to them; believe! Those who believe are changed. Those who do not remain condemned.
They refuse because they love the world and the darkness of their own sin. When they hear that word “cross” and that it changes everything, they recoil and immediately dismiss it as foolishness or an abstraction, or a stumbling block. They prefer to wallow in the mire of the world and it’s sin and their own sin than to take their position “in Christ” and see what He sees. How He sees them and what they should do as a result. I am also talking about people who self identify as Christian.
If it seems like an abstract idea to you, then perhaps you have never fully considered the implications. If it is a stumbling block to you, then that would be nothing new. Many have stumbled over the cross. Jesus is a rock of offense.
There is no need to do either tho. It is the only real message that the church has, but the church always seems busy with other things – distractions. But people like to react, rather than think, because they have grown fond of the story they tell themselves. They like to think they are better than the worst of sinners, and that they would never do “those things”. But they do and they are.
When people react negatively because the “church” stonewalls abuse, they need to be led to understand that there are many unbelievers masquerading as “christians”. And many Christians need to realize that many of their number are masquerading as unbelievers. Many people reject a caricature of the Christian faith without even realizing it. Some are just too lazy to find out the truth. Others are instruments of the enemy.
Unbelievers have their own lingo too, and much of it, and the philosophies behind it, has been adopted willingly by an apostate church. So the cross get’s obscured. The Cross changes everything whether you believe it or not. That is the perspective of God’s heart as revealed in His Word. It is the ultimate statement of His Love for the world. And it is the point of decision for everyone, the act of love with which everyone must come to terms. If you do, He changes you forever.
And if you have a problem with that, go argue with God.
@ Datenite Doug:
You emphasize the event. I emphasize the Person at the center of the event. That Person speaks and spoke to real people in very real circumstances. It is not helpful to tell real people with real circumstances resulting from sin that “the cross changes everything.” They very likely will misunderstand what you mean by that. In fact, I’ve been a Christian for a very, very long time (probably not up to your standards, though), and I don’t know what you mean by that.
I know perfectly well what it means to live as one “in Christ.” As I said, the only people who have ever tried to deny me that position are the Gospel Glitterati hierarchical types. Like Jared and Doug Wilson.
I don’t reject Jesus or the authority of the written word. I do reject the self-appointed Spiritual Authorities like Jared who love to tell the rest of us how to think.
Datenite Doug wrote:
He changes us forever but everything about us isn’t changed immediately. This is something that you don’t seem to acknowledge. The sin in the flesh still entangles us. Even the Apostle Paul lamented this issue.
Josh wrote:
The only difference I see are the “issues”. We have a government that mandates policy for us but they exempt themselves. There are plenty to name: Social Security, Medicaid, Health insurance/IRS and so on even down to building permits, etc. Yet, they exempt themselves for what they mandate for the peasants. I do not see them as any different than reconstructionists or “elders”, etc. They just focus on different issues. They are simply another form of authoritarian control. An oligarchy. I fear it has already become the norm.
@ Gram3:
IF the cross changes everything (people) immediately or even over time, what is Jared’s excuse for his pattern of behavior defending and/or ignoring the obvious with Doug Wilson, CJ Mahaney, his pattern of deleting, etc?
The only thing Doug is suggesting is that Jared get a pass but not others who disagree with him. Ho hum. This is SGM and the entire TGC movement playbook all over again. What else is new?
@ Lydia:
Well, at least DatenightDoug gave me the benefit of the doubt regarding my Christianity. Oh wait…
The main problem I see with the phrase “the cross changes everything” is that it can become a clobber concept that puts people under a burden of guilt because they or their circumstances are *not* changed. I had this discussion and similar ones with the leadership at my former church where such phrases were tossed around. Just like so many others like Romans 8:28 or the other clobber verses that are misinterpreted to keep people in line and on the plantation.
They will never apologize for Mahaney or Doug Wilson. Because they have a party spirit, and the Party in this case is hierarchical authority between clergy/laity and male/female. That point is non-negotiable. They will accept outrageous behavior from Mahaney and Doug Wilson and Wilson’s Federal Vision nonsense because they teach hierarchy. It is all about power and nothing about love. Which, IMO, is why they talk about “the cross” rather than about the man Christ Jesus who laid down his power and authority for the sake of love.
Lydia wrote:
I think this is true in so many realms that I wonder what happened? Why are people so afraid of liberty? Why do so many people want to give away their right to think for themselves and question and act according to conscience? Why do we believe that the people that think like us will be OK if they are put into an absolute position of authority? I think it must be a universal human trait to be credulous about our tribal leaders.
I’ve been away from this discussion for a while, so I’ve not read every single post in detail, but I think we’ve been collectively a little unfair to Datenite Dougie (to give him his proper Scottish moniker *), on two particular counts.
Count 1 of 2: forgiveness
Doug referred to the fact that he has forgiven someone who abused him as a child.
It’s true that we all find different things easy. Whether by luck or temperament-type, some people who have suffered gross injustice find themselves able to forgive relatively easily. Others who have suffered much the same kind of gross injustice may find it hard to forgive. But either way, unless I have completely misunderstood Jesus’ several recorded instructions on forgiveness, Doug is right in saying that forgiveness is necessary. I must respectfully beg to differ slightly with what dee wrote:
… in the sense that caring for the downtrodden is not a substitute for forgiveness – it is a good and necessary thing in and of itself, and something the biblescribshers command us to do. I wouldn’t say to Doug, Great; you’re good at forgiveness, so you’re excused from caring for the downtrodden. Quite the contrary! Put it this way: I do not believe Jesus would command us to do something that was bad for us. Nor would he saddle us with a hard yoke or a heavy burden.
People who find it hard to forgive may need the right kind of help (cf Paul’s instruction to the Ephesian church to “bear one another’s burdens”). The right kind of help does not include the grotesque scenario of a three-year-old being forced to forgive her abuser; but that high-profile caricature of “forgiveness” mustn’t distract us from the real thing. When I forgive someone, it sets me free, not them. That’s why Jesus commands us to forgive.
When churches seek to protect their brands and reputations at the expense of victims of abuse, they forfeit the right to talk about forgiveness. Because when they do talk about it, they very likely do not care about setting the victim free. I have no authority to forgive a child’s abuser unless and until I have first fulfilled my responsibility to the child.
Count 2 of 2:
… will have to wait, as this comment’s already long enough.
* The name “Douglas” is of Scottish Gaelic origin
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I agree. When Jared repents and apologizes for his defense of Doug Wilson’s misogyny, then he will have some standing to demand/exhort others to let such things go. Doug Wilson is an abuser, and Jared Wilson is an enabler and defender.
I also agree that people who find it difficult to forgive need the help of fellow believers. Regrettably, believers sometimes compound the offense and postpone the forgiveness by not frankly naming the offense and not calling the offender to repentance. I believe that is because it is more difficult to do that than it is to preach at the offended. We need both, IMO.
Datenite Doug wrote:
But what do you do when somebody else makes the same claim and their view doesn’t jibe with yours?
@ Muff Potter:
Beat me to it.
mirele wrote:
Disconnect Declares from Flag?
Datenite Doug wrote:
I love arguing with God. It’s a very Jewish thing to do even though I’m Not a Jew. Arguing with God is not looked upon kindly in most flavors of Christianity. And as Gram3 has pointed out up-thread, arguing with God usually gets shut down with a clobber verse or two, or three.
Muff Potter wrote:
* Abraham haggling the Angels down like a bazaar merchant. “A hundred righteous men in Sodom… How about fifty? How about forty? Thirty? Twenty? Ten? …”
* Jacob getting his leg broken in an all-night physical knock-down-drag-out with God…
* Laments in Psalms & Lamentations — “How Long, God? How Long?”
* Even Fiddler on the Roof — “Would it spoil your Great Eternal Plan/ If I were a wealthy man?”
On his blog years ago, Rabbi Boteach pointed this out as the contrast between Judaism and the other two Abrahamic Monotheisms. While Christianity (and especially Islam) teach passive submission to God and God’s Will, Judaism is full of face-to-face knock-down-drag-outs between man and God.
Muff Potter wrote:
I so agree with this! I really does seem to be uniquikely a Jewish thing and we see very interesting examples of it in the OT and even some in the NT. Guess what arguing with God does? It makes you think! And the last thing churches want you to do is think!
Ok, I only read a couple comments, but I have heard enough. I am in the beginning of a very difficult situation involving church leaders, and I WILL NOT LET IT GO. The people in question, if found guiltu, will feel the righteous right hand of God in the form of duly ordained legal authorities. This guys problem is that he does not believe Romans 13.
@ Bob M:
I was a bit shocked by a website I came upon yesterday (linked in the latest post) fully dedicated to helping church leaders outwit duly ordained legal authorities– all in the name of religious freedom. Since you will not let it go, I suppose you’ll be labeled “divisive” which will justify anything and everything against you. You’ll be in my prayers!