Owen Strachan: Only Calvinista Complementarianism Can Solve the LGBT Conundrum

“Do you know what we call opinion in the absence of evidence? We call it prejudice.” ― Michael Crichton, State of Fear link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=6500&picture=pink-tulips
Spring is coming, I think! link 

I had a nice lunch today with Mr. and Mrs. *Stretch*-long time readers of this blog. We love to meet up with readers when they are in the area. It makes the blog seem more like the community we imagined if could be many years ago. 

Back in January, I read a post by Owen Strachan on his blog at Patheos titled Cultural Capitulation on Homosexuality Is Not Courageous. Owen Strachan is the President of the Council of Biblical™ Manhood and Womanhood and a long time culture warrior. Strachan is probably best known by our readers for calling men who stay home with their children "male fails." TWW wrote a post on the matter: Owen Strachan: God’s Glory Is Diminished by Male Fails? 

It might be worthwhile to note that this example of virile, godly manhood has blocked your adorable blog doyenne ( and I even stayed home with my kids!!!) from his tweets. Bless his heart. I still get them through my super secret email.

LGBT issues, once again

At first glance I thought this was just another typical tirade on the LGBT front and I almost skipped over it. However, the trajectory of the post startled me. His first point was not a surprise.

1. Capitulating to the culture is not courageous.
This is the same old, same old " love them enough to tell them they are sinners" approach.

But failing to love in this way, I fear, queues up an entire congregation for judgment and destruction. These are heightened tones, I recognize. But the church–and all evangelicalism–finds itself in a battle for its very soul. Courage is conditioned by faithfulness to God’s Word, not by capitulation to the culture.

I have made this point before but bear with me once more. Jesus was not a culture warrior. He was a soul warrior. The entire Old Testament is replete with the story of man's continuous selling out to sin. Jesus came to forgive us our sin and offers us the gift of grace and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. How in the world do Christian think that those who do not buy our salvation story and its subsequent admonitions could understand what we are asking them to do?

Years ago I was heavily involved in politics. I soon grew weary of it all. We will fail at legislating many moral issues in the absence of an agreed upon standard of living. Besides, Christians are already looked at suspiciously since the church did not rise up against slavery and racism until more recent times. We failed miserably and our culture knows it.

2. "Confessional™" churches are best-positioned to weather this storm.

Now here is where it gets interesting. What do you think he is getting at by this statement?

But it is clear to me that many evangelical churches are not well-suited for major cultural challenges. Too many of our congregations have no confessional foundation. 

…I fear that, in the end, this weakened brand of Christianity–half-Christianity–ends up deceiving many people. It asks for a faith commitment, but no life-change. It offers a neutered gospel, with no call to transformation. 

"Confessional" is a code word for Reformed theology. Not just any Reformed theology but Neo-Calvinist, hard-lined theology which we call Calvinista theology. This is the theology of John Piper, Al Mohler, Doug Wilson, Mark Dever, The Gospel Coalition, CBMW, Sovereign Grace Ministries, etc. Let me say it to you like this: Only those in their sharply defined club will be able to change the culture. Why? Who knows? They just affirm this.

According to Strachan, those who are outside of their band of brothers are offering a *neutered* gospel. They do not define what that is but it must have something to do with culture wars. You see, John 3:16 doesn't quite cut it. You need to do more than believe in Jesus and His power to change our lives. You have to adhere to the confessions and the standards of obedience that they have set up.

Let me give you an example of their confessional approach. In this post Strachan extols Mark Dever. 

These false conversions will be, as Mark Dever boldly and rightly said at T4G 2012, the “suicide of the church.” 

Yet Dever blocked one man who disagreed with him from leaving his church without *discipline.*  He also believes he holds the keys to decide who is and isn't a Christian link and link. Perhaps you are thinking that all Dever, Strachan, etc.are simply saying that they can tell if someone is or isn't a Christian by their testimony. Well, in reality, they are not. Unless you are confessional, you believe in a neutered gospel. This means a gospel that is different than the gospel to which they claim to adhere.

Never forget that RC Sproul said that non-Reformed people are Christians, but just barely. Right now I am attending a church that some would consider confessional. However, I have also attended nondenominational churches, Congregational churches, etc. I know many people in these  supposed *neutered gospel* churches. They love the Lord. They are missionaries. They serve in prison ministries, pregnancy support groups, inner city ministries, and medical outreaches. All do it in the name of the Lord. Yet, there are pastors out there that claim these people are wicked and unregenerate because they don't buy certain secondary tenets that Calvinistas impose as nonengotiable.

3. Inerrancy is the key.

 On this one they have a problem. Most statements on inerrancy include this caveat.

"Inerrancy is the view that when all the facts become known, they will demonstrate that the Bible in its original autographs and correctly interpreted is entirely true and never false in all it affirms, whether that relates to doctrines or ethics or to the social, physical, or life sciences.

That is why many prefer to use the word "divinely inspired and authoritative." We don't have the original autographs so to me this point is moot.

4. Complementarianism really is the last dam holding back the waters that would sweep over evangelical churches. 

Here is the kicker.

If complementarianism falls, then the last bastion of resistance to full-fledged endorsement of both homosexual and transgender identity falls with it. This is it. We’re down to the last refuge.

If the church gives up its overwhelmingly-held historic position–being complementarianism–then it will no doubt, with tremendous speed, endorse both homosexuality and transgenderism as not only viable for believers, but good.

It goes even further. Complementarian (and confessional) churches are the last refuge against the culture.

I am quite certain that young evangelicals have very little sense of how high the stakes are, and how important complementarian churches and organizations truly are. You look around in the culture, and aside from fellow religious groups that are fighting tooth-and-nail over these same issues, we’re the last group standing. There’s no one else coming who will stand for biblical truth. Outside of a miracle from God, there is no great doctrinal deliverance to expect. Until Jesus returns, we–empowered in full by the Holy Spirit–are the last refuge.

And CBMW is poised to thrive in the future because it is biblical™ as well as  (I can't believe it ) winsome!!!!!

Complementarianism, taught in hundreds of thousands of churches and represented organizationally by the Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood, is very well positioned to survive and even thrive in days ahead. It is grounded in the Bible. The exegetical and theological infrastructure already exists. Our calling now is to winsomely and convictionally promote complementarianism, to show that it brings joy, and to make clear that it is not simply a seven-point position, but a worldview.

If you do not believe this, you are siding with the enemy.

Our enemy, to be sure, is no man or woman. It is a force who would destroy the church and eviscerate alongside it all traces of goodness, truth, and beauty in the world. We are sobered by this, but not one percent scared by it. Believers have faced these prospects before (see Hebrews 11). The way is given to us. We simply have to walk it.

Good night! He likens himself and his BFFs to the Old Testament prophets as found in Hebrews 11. Now that takes chutzpah. Where does that leave us? Unless we are Calvinista complementarians we are siding with the evil one. Wow! In some circles this might be called bigotry. The sad thing is that I think they would be happy to take on that label.

The Internet Monk and Owen Strachan

The Internet Monk reviewed the same post from Strachan: A Response to Owen Strachan on Cultural CourageI decided not to read it before I wrote my post to see if we differed on any points.. Of course, Chaplain Mike is an extraordinary writer and he wins the day. The following are some of the great points that he made.

Point 1

 The problem is in the whole approach, which I deem Pharisaical. The Pharisees were the religious leaders who saw themselves as “right” and who displayed zeal for the restoration of Israel. 

…Note the prevalence of power language and militaristic metaphors in their preaching and teaching. Note the confrontational stance. Observe the passion to be right and to conform others to that rightness.

…The new reformed-calvinistic-puritans are the Marines of post-evangelicalism, and Owen Strachan represents them well in this article: the few, the proud, the chosen, the righteous.

Point 2

 Today’s cries for freedom and human rights and equal rights, today’s laments of injustice, today’s efforts against discrimination, today’s protests against unchecked power and its abuse did not just arise because one day people decided they wanted to “leave God’s Word” behind. They grew organically out of centuries of ethnic and religious wars and violence, of brutal colonialism and slave-trading, of genocides, war crimes, gulags, death camps, lynchings, and the resettlement of vast hordes of refugees and exiles. And many in the forefront of freedom movements have been there and are there because of their faith in Jesus Christ and the hope of a new creation.

LGTBQIA folks have been among those on the fringes, cast out into the shadows and discriminated against for a long time. Will their freedom and dignity (no matter what you might think morally about their practices) really cause irreparable harm in our midst?

Point 3

I must say something about Owen Strachan’s final point, because, honestly, it is beyond laughable to me. Just ponder this sentence again: “Until Jesus returns, we [those who hold to complementarianism] – empowered in full by the Holy Spirit – are the last refuge.”

I’m not sure such nonsense is even worthy of someone mounting an opposing argument. In my view, this point absolutely destroys all credibility that Owen Strachan has in claiming to be a person who is firmly standing on the Word of God. I’m okay with someone having a conviction about “traditional roles” for men and women. I think that can be argued reasonably and graciously. But to make this small theological point the linchpin of faithfulness to God and scripture, and the last remaining hope of the Church in the world today, is like saying the Chicago Cubs will only overcome their opponents and finally win the World Series when they get just the right batboy!

Chaplain Mike on the NeoPuritans

Finally, Chaplain Mike views Strachan's take on "confessional" churches in the same way that I did.

His second point gives him the opportunity to blast his evangelical brethren for their weak, culturally-capitulating congregations. In this, Strachan reiterates the critique of evangelicalism that has forcefully been presented by one of the streams of post-evangelicalism we have discussed here on Internet Monk — variously designated as the “new reformed,” the “new calvinist,” or the “new puritan” movement. Strachan calls them “confessional” churches here, but that is something of a misnomer, especially since so many of them are independent and Baptist (and yes, I know there are Baptist confessions, too). I would say they are more accurately called “foundationalist” churches with a distinctly reformed-calvinistic-puritan bent.

In contrast, Strachan laments “adoctrinal” evangelicalism, a form of faith that “hides the light,”that yields scads of “false conversions,” producing “half-Christians, Christians who like the salvation-and-free-grace part of the Bible without the sticky ethical and doctrinal material.” It gives us a “straitjacketed Jesus” and a “neutered gospel.”

Chaplain Mike is nicer than me. I believe that Strachan's negative view of his evangelical brethren is approaching bigotry. I have been a member of a Christian Reformed church (on the Navajo Reservation) as well as a Reformed Southern Baptist Church. I have enjoyed my associations with my Calvinist brothers and sisters. But, I guess I adhere a neutered gospel. My questions is:

Do these guys actually espouse the essential gospel of grace?

Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 24:1-25:46 Mark 10:13-31 Psalm 44:9-26 Proverbs 10:20-21

 

Comments

Owen Strachan: Only Calvinista Complementarianism Can Solve the LGBT Conundrum — 310 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    First? Can’t resist trying


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ The Nightowl:
    Awesome reflexes! Well done.


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    not simply a seven-point position, but a worldview

    Wait, I thought there were five points. Dog gone it, when did the point count inflate?

    Oh, and “3rd…?”


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Owen sounds like a desparate business owner tooting his own horn and pushing his comp brand out of pure desparation for sales.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I was raised Lutheran and over the years have attended many other denominational churches and been a part of 2 missionary organizations, one international. I saw first hand the arrogant “we’re the true Christians, everyone else is wrong or misguided” philosophy way too much. Even in the international mission organization where we had a truly diverse make up of theological and nationality backgrounds in the form of “we’re obeying Christ’s call, we’re on the mission field, we’re not worldly”.

    Homosexuality has been blamed for everything under the sun and used as a scape goat and a pressure tactic by the church at large for too long. There needs to be a reality check that it is the love of God that leads us to repentance and Jesus ate with tax collectors, prostitutes and other outcasts of his day. He didn’t start his conversations with the woman at the well or the adulteress by blasting them for their sin or blaming them for society’s ills. Instead he met them on their level, forgave them and then and only then told them to sin no more. And we all have sin in our lives that we need God to assist us in that endeavor.


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Do these guys actually espouse the essential gospel of grace?

    Their meaning of grace is completely different from anyone outside their purist group. Their “gospel” of grace is really “doctrine” of grace. Any time you see grace, you need to replace it with John Calvin’s meaning of grace. It’s interesting how many Calvinist churches have Grace in their name: Beaverton Grace Bible Church, Sovereign Grace Ministries, Grace Community Church, etc – – all Reformed.

    My suing church was Calvinist. Maybe their name should have been Beaverton John Calvin’s Grace Bible Church. Or Beaverton Doctrines of Grace Bible Church. How come we don’t hear church names like that?


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Great post, 2 quick thoughts.

    1) Strachan’s confessionalism (more to say on this later) is most certainly not best positioned to weather the storm. I think Throckmorton’s theraputic approach to sexual identity issues as it pertains to one’s faith is probably the most humane and intellectually defensible approach, as opposed to the blunt-force trauma induced by certain ex-gay and sexual reorientation therapies.

    2)Strachan, like many in broadly Calvinist circles co-opts the term “confessional” to describe his brand of Christianity. Those who are genuinely confessional (Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc…) are those whose faith and practice of Christianity are informed by the robust Protestant confessions of faith penned 3-500 years ago. Numerically speaking, confessional Christians are not a big group. The Calvinist Industrial Complex headed up by TGC, CBMW, and the rest of the alphabet soup para-church organizations backed by large Evangelical publishing houses (often held by larger publishing conglomorates) like very much to wear the label of “confessional”, even though very few of these guys are much more than garden variety 5-Point Calvinists (BTW the 5 points are an anachronism developed at the turn of the 20th century). They like the label, because it is their way of saying “see, we aren’t just another iteration of American Christianity — we’ve got roots in historic christianity. These “calvinistas” as the Deebs so aptly call themselves are about as “rooted” and “authentic” as the local Wal-Mart is authentically rooted in the long history of Christmas.

    Strachan is great at waxing Quixotic, but at the end of the day he’s only shouting down windmills.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have come to the conclusion that any person or organization that spends so much effort publicly proclaiming how ‘Christian’ they are, when they are examined closely based on their actions they are really all about greed, power, and oppression if not downright abuse. Love for anyone other than themselves is non-existent.

    As Strachan and his mentors so loudly proclaim, to be ‘Christian’ you must oppress all women and the LGBT community.


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I wonder how much damage people like OS are doing to the Church. I wonder how many people read his claptrap and think this is Christianity, and Christianity is bunk. So many of the the celebrity pastor/writers are so noisy that it begins to look like Christianity to the culture at large.

    It places a huge stumbling block in the path of people seeking some way, some how, to come to Jesus. This is not something that our Lord really appreciates, as far as my understanding of the Gospels goes. I think of millstones and very deep water.

    Frankly? I think Strachan and his Calvinista ilk are skating very close to the edge, evil-wise…

    What is going on with these people? Do they honestly think they’re serving Christ? I simply do no get it. But then, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, as it were…


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    Owen sounds like a desparate business owner tooting his own horn and pushing his comp brand out of pure desparation for sales.

    Agreed…it’s obvious desperation imo.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Our calling now is to winsomely and convictionally promote complementarianism, to show that it brings joy,

    Sounds to me more like it brings a sort of rabidly fanatical sky-is-fallingism. I dunno. I guess that could be joyful if you like that sort of thing.

    I’m having trouble seeing how “I will build My church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” is the same thing as “suicide of the church.” Because if Dever is right….


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Saying that some churches will not “endorse homosexuality and transgenderism” is practically meaningless. With people like Strachen, it’s unclear whether the aforementioned are used to refer to the unchosen experience of attractions with which some people live, or the actions prompted by said attractions (in the case of trans* people, the boundary between action and state of being becomes less clear). If he intends to say that his approved kind of church will not “endorse” (besides, what does that term mean?) even an LGBT state of being, then he is not only a poor communicator but also dangerously wrong. Whatever your view of holy living looks like, if it’s not something that is possible for a person who experiences persistent attractions to the same sex or persistent identity with a gender not correlated with their sex assigned at birth that never changes over the course of their life, then your approach is fatally flawed.


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    And yet they follow a Christ who willingly and gladly spent time with tax collectors and prostitutes…this baffles me.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Honestly, i think Strachan has created his own religion, one that might (like Dominionism and Third Wave spiritual warfare beliefs) nominally evoke Jesus, the Bible and many common xtian terms, but has little or nothing to do with what Christ actually does and teaches in the Gospels. His gender essentialist views are very, very close to Mormonism, jn many respects.

    And Jed, thank you for pointing out the reality re. historic confessions and lwrge parts of the church. (I’m Lutheran, but certainly don’t hold the Augsburg Confession to be the 5th gospel, important though it is.)


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ XianJaneway:
    Im not sure that they believe in *that* Christ, actually. More like the “I come to cast fire on the earth” Christ, though whether their intetpetstion of such statements is a realistic one is another thing entirely.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Julie Anne:
    It took me a long time (having been raised Lutheran) to understand that their view of grace is nothing like the view of grace held in most other Protestant traditions. I wish they would come up with their own word for it, really, because it confuses thd isdue no end.


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:

    Thanks, I probably should have noted that Confessions of faith are (or at least are supposed to be) secondary to Scripture.

    I think guys like OS simply cannot admit they are crabby old fundamentalists. So they’ll self-style themselves as “confessional” or “Reformed” or “Calvinist”, but underneath their new clothes is the same old fundamentalism that’s always been there. It’s almost as absurd as claiming to be Roman Catholic except for all that Pope and Mary stuff.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Julie Anne wrote:

    Their meaning of grace is completely different from anyone outside their purist group.

    Julie Anne,

    I’m getting a crash course in the New Calvinism. Would you say that their meaning of grace includes words such as “discipline,” “obedience” and “sanctification”?

    And if so, how is that different from works? I get myself confused.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jed Paschall wrote:

    So they’ll self-style themselves as “confessional” or “Reformed” or “Calvinist”, but underneath their new clothes is the same old fundamentalism

    Yes, I’m getting this too, in my crash course in New Calvinism.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ JeffT:

    Bingo.

    I have two words for them on this issue of “standing before the dam breaks”: Mark Driscoll. How about it fellas? After all, Driscoll had all the “correct doctrine” you have and now you guys pretend you never promoted him.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ted wrote:

    I’m getting a crash course in the New Calvinism. Would you say that their meaning of grace includes words such as “discipline,” “obedience” and “sanctification”?

    Don’t forget “authority”.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    And what about the dam breaking with child molestations in the form of SGM, Owen? Think about that when you quote Dever who protected Mahaney when he fled his church!


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oh wow. I typed the above before I even read this header:

    “Hush Fund Set Up by Top SGM Leaders to Meet the Demands of a SGM Pastor Whose Son Was Sexually Abused”


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lydia:

    Read the article. A nightmare for SGM as far as I can tell.


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lydia:
    It is incredible. i will reprint it here tomorrow.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ted wrote:

    my crash course in New Calvinism.

    Over here, we call them Calvinistas-they are the guerrilla fighters for John Calvin instead of Daniel Ortega.Their weapon? The Institutes which are treated akin to how the Mormons treat the Book of Mormon.


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ted wrote:

    And if so, how is that different from works?

    It isn’t. I wrote a post on their definition of of freedom in Christ. They say you are now free to obey. So, start being obedient, immediately.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/05/12/grace-and-obedience-why-i-agree-with-tullian-tchividjian-and-not-with-jen-wilkin/


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    As someone who has stated before that I am reformedish and complentarianish I know that many people will here will take Owen to task for any number of places in which you find his hermeneutic wanting……but I find the most glaring problem in his scriptural approach in his equation of “stop the gays, save the church”.

    Dee pointed out earlier that cultural wars was not the point of Jesus(which btw…personal plug…was a big chunk of my point for the Palm Sunday message….They were excited to have a warrior messiah…he came in humbly and died a week later….I then told everyone that the billions spent on politics by the religious right was stupid because no form of “better” government will ever be our real messiah….see how that goes over….) And if what Dee pointed out is true(it is) then Owen is making two bi mistakes;

    1- That a Christian and the Church’s highest earthly goal should be reshaping cultural/governments to be more Holy

    2- He is missing an obvious cause and effect in scripture….Namely, that people desiring and acting on improper sexual relationships is a RESULT of people rejecting God NOT people had improper sexual relations and it caused other bad things to happen.

    Whether or not you agree with the Romans 1 paraphrase there…the point being, that OS and other people in his camp will ignore even while using Romans 1 as a battering ram, is that the problem isn’t homosexual practices but the problems that occurred WELLLLL before that.

    It is sort of like addressing a gangrene by investing in larger bandages…..

    If anyone is to blame for our current condition, it is those who should have known better CENTURIES ago. When the Church is not living as intended, the outflow is negative for everyone. In contrast, the early Church….which was not politically/culturally/socially powerful….lived in a radical way(graciousness in the face of oppression, taking babies out of the dumps, hospitals, etc) it changed the known world in a few centuries…..Then the church got “popular” got comfortable and stopped living radically…..

    So, instead of harping on stopping the gays to “save” us all, start living as the church. ESPECIALLY as the world goes its own way.


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jed Paschall wrote:

    So they’ll self-style themselves as “confessional” or “Reformed” or “Calvinist”, but underneath their new clothes is the same old fundamentalism that’s always been there.

    Yep: read this post I wrote on that subject. You are free to obey. Free to obey what? Whatever your pastor thinks is important. He’ll let you know what you will get disciplined for.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/05/12/grace-and-obedience-why-i-agree-with-tullian-tchividjian-and-not-with-jen-wilkin/


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    formerly anonymous wrote:

    Sounds to me more like it brings a sort of rabidly fanatical sky-is-fallingism

    However, they are the ones who are on God’s side. They choose an issue with which they do not struggle (or are able to hide the fact that the struggle with it) and yell and scream about that one. Meanwhile, they have their own issues which are now overlooked. My pastor calls this “cooking the books.”


  31. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    Whatever your view of holy living looks like, if it’s not something that is possible for a person who experiences persistent attractions to the same sex or persistent identity with a gender not correlated with their sex assigned at birth that never changes over the course of their life, then your approach is fatally flawed.

    This makes me so upset. Here’s the dirty little secret. These guys all have sins, lots of them. Yet, they deflect onto a sin with which they do not struggle and then come across as holy “thank you very much.” They will never repent of their arrogance, greed, etc. They are modern day Pharisees laying the guilt on the people while they collect the tithes, live well-running around to conferences and patting each other on the back.

    Their system is failing. People are leaving the church-particularly the middle aged folks with the money. One day, the gig will be up.


  32. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Thank you for sharing your struggles with the rest of us strugglers.


  33. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    t is sort of like addressing a gangrene by investing in larger bandages….

    Or stopping a flooding sink by putting towels on the ground instead of fixing the faucet. I really like tying in the Book of Maccabees to the use of palms on Palm Sunday. When I first heard that many years ago, I finally realized why the Apocrypha can be used to fill in historical events.

    I would have loved to hear your sermon!


  34. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It seems to me that a hard-line approach only serves to drive people away from the church because it smacks of elitist arrogance.

    As a side note, a friend linked this on Facebook today – from Jared Wilson. Apparently he doesn’t forbid taking notes during his sermons, but discourages it. As the comments on this friend’s thread played out, the question was raised, “Why is this even a question?” It seems a bit intrusive and controlling. http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2015/03/27/thoughts-on-note-taking-during-sermons/


  35. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    You are free to obey. Free to obey what? Whatever your pastor thinks is important. He’ll let you know what you will get disciplined for.

    So true, and this is why I am so on board (even as a crusty old Calvinist) with you shining a bright light on what the New-Calvinists are up to. They are writing their own rule-books and hurting a lot of people as they go their merry way. With the help of slick, web-saavy marketing, they seem to be getting lots of traction as the ‘thinking man’s evangelicalism’. But, underneath it all is naked authoritarian power grabbing, and corruption.

    Hopefully I live long enough to read some bright young historian’s PhD thesis “The Rise and Fall of New Calvinism in 21st Century America”. It’ll be a page turner for sure.


  36. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    These guys all have sins, lots of them. Yet, they deflect onto a sin with which they do not struggle and then come across as holy “thank you very much.” They will never repent of their arrogance, greed, etc. They are modern day Pharisees laying the guilt on the people while they collect the tithes, live well-running around to conferences and patting each other on the back.

    Jesus said something very chilling about the religious leaders of his own tribe: They are getting their “reward” now. In God’s economy, I would rather be a person that struggles with homosexuality (or whatever) than a charlatan who uses Jesus for fame and profit and to get as many followers after themselves as they can. I personally think they have things very backward.


  37. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Julie Anne wrote:

    It’s interesting how many Calvinist churches have Grace in their name: Beaverton Grace Bible Church, Sovereign Grace Ministries, Grace Community Church, etc – – all Reformed.

    Reformed(TM) = “Who Needs Christ; We Have CALVIN!”


  38. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    srs wrote:

    not simply a seven-point position, but a worldview

    Wait, I thought there were five points.

    But a Six-Point Calvinist is more Godly than a Five-Point Calvinist.
    And a Seven-Point Calvinist is even more Godly than a Six-Point Calvinist.

    Just like the Taliban were more Islamic than the Wahabi and ISIS is even more Islamic than the Taliban (and both were more Islamic than Mohammed).


  39. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Adam Borsay:

    While you could say that a decision to pursue anything that God forbids is a decision to reject God, one stands on quicksand to claim that desires for (i.e. attraction to) illicit things come about exclusively because people have rejected God.

    I’ve lost track of the number of accounts I’ve read of someone who had been a follower of Christ from a young age, and was terrified when they found their nascent pubescent temptations leaning toward the same sex versus the opposite one. On what basis could it be said that they rejected God?


  40. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    I don’t read it as an equation of; “You” reject God, THEN, you get bad thoughts as punishment….

    I have always understood it as a broad understanding of the effects of sin at large in all areas of our world. Similar to the understanding the cancer exists because of Sin. Not because of YOUR sin(outside of obvious behavior induced cancers). God’s design was to not have disease, sin broke everything, we now have cancer.

    And to keep in mind, we will NEVER fix all these problems on this side of heaven. And not that we should therefore ignore them. So, while Cancer is a result of Sin, we don’t say, “The Church has only one last refuge in a sinful culture, curing cancer”. We address cancer where appropriate and helpful, but it isn’t all we preach on. Even though it IS a result of sin AND effects a LOT more people.

    It is therefore just as ridiculous to say, “Here we will draw hold the line and say the most important thing is to fight this one particular result of a fallen world and ignore everything else….especially those other results of the fall that are my personal problems….”


  41. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Adam Borsay:
    Ok, thanks for clarifying. I’ve heard enough of the interpretation I was addressing that I wanted to get a better understanding of where you were coming from on the matter.


  42. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Momentary rabbit trail: I’ve been reading Michael Crichton’s book State of Fear recently. I can hardly put it down, except to read Wartburg, of course. I thought it was a happy little coincidence that your opening quote came from it.


  43. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I read about the “Hush Fund” and had two questions:

    1a) Is the statute of limitations passed for the sexual abuse? (I don’t know what state this occurred in.)
    1b) If the statute of limitations has not passed, I do believe there may be an affirmative duty upon the person who received this information to go to law enforcement despite the existence of this hush fund and agreement.

    2) The person who received this information needs to a) write more concisely and b) not drag in irrelevant stuff such as a discussion about Norplant. Just My Personal Opinion.


  44. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Adam Borsay:
    Have you ever read any Jewish opinions on this? Because though Judaism holds that people can and do sin, there is no belief there in Original Sin in the way it has been framed in much of xtianity. (The Orthodox churches have differing views on this, btw – not necessarily what most xtians believe, in fact.)

    Myself, i don’t think the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent was meant to be taken literally by its writers/eeditors, though i do believe that we humans sin. But “SSin broke the world” so sin = the reason disease exists? Not so much.


  45. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ mirele:
    Re. #2, one thing Brent Detwiler is not is concise.


  46. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Here’s an essay on the pain of betrayal. God I have so much to write about and I still have awesome blogs like his. I am still processing this one from Owen. If the Clavinista has all the answers I wonder if that includes secret, hidden hush founds that would put the Nixon administration as clean as a Sunday school class! 😛

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/theology-of-betrayal/


  47. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    I need to look into the Jewish and Orthodox perspectives on sin further. I wasn’t going to go down this rabbit hole, but I’m with you on the question of whether the A&E story was meant to be taken literally (I’m with not). But that comes by holding my interpretation of scripture and the clear evidence of how God’s act of creation was worked out in the physical world in a [hopefully] appropriate degree of tension, and that’s a topic for another day – well, I think that’s come up here more than a time or two before, anyway.

    But to meander back near today’s topic, based on the various forms of same-sex behavior seen all across the animal kingdom, I’d say that whatever it is biologically that’s behind these sorts of desires has its origin some ways back in pre-human genetic history (and it’s not unknown for traits to arise multiple times independently, so origins may be more appropriate).

    This says nothing about the morality of acting upon said desires one way or the other, but the evidence is just as clear that there seem to be some as-of-yet not fully identified genetic, epigenetic, and intrauterine hormonal factors involved, just as it’s clear that the “absent father, overbearing mother” and childhood trauma / abuse environmental factors do not have a statistically significant effect on the expression of same-sex attractions.


  48. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Of course, there are all the various biological conditions that come under the “intersex” heading as well, and i don’t see how those are a direct result of sin any more than volcanic eruptions or dust devils are a “result” of the natural world somehow being irretrievably “broken” by original sin.

    But, whatevs… 😉


  49. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    From the main body of the post:

    “If complementarianism falls, then the last bastion of resistance to full-fledged endorsement of both homosexual and transgender identity falls with it. This is it. We’re down to the last refuge.”

    Attributed to Strachan?

    Despite his claim that CBMW is thriving, I wonder what the real numbers are? He sounds more like a committed National Socialist in the spring of 1945 when Ivan was just a few kilometers from the outskirts of Berlin.


  50. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oh, my, yes, he has all the answers. Except that his answers sound exactly like the teaching/culture that drove our children out of the church, and other children in other families we know. His kind of “religion” is driving people away from Christ, not winning them.


  51. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Virginia Knowles wrote:

    It seems to me that a hard-line approach only serves to drive people away from the church because it smacks of elitist arrogance.
    As a side note, a friend linked this on Facebook today – from Jared Wilson. Apparently he doesn’t forbid taking notes during his sermons, but discourages it. As the comments on this friend’s thread played out, the question was raised, “Why is this even a question?” It seems a bit intrusive and controlling. http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2015/03/27/thoughts-on-note-taking-during-sermons/

    I remember hearing our ex-pastor making fun of people who took notes during his sermons. Can you imagine it? As someone who stores information in memory by taking notes (somehow my brain is connected to my fingers), I was pretty taken aback to hear him say it.


  52. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Muff Potter:
    Agreed. He sounds like he’s trying to convince himself more than anyone else.


  53. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    roebuck wrote:

    I wonder how much damage people like OS are doing to the Church. I wonder how many people read his claptrap and think this is Christianity, and Christianity is bunk. So many of the the celebrity pastor/writers are so noisy that it begins to look like Christianity to the culture at large.
    It places a huge stumbling block in the path of people seeking some way, some how, to come to Jesus. This is not something that our Lord really appreciates, as far as my understanding of the Gospels goes. I think of millstones and very deep water.
    Frankly? I think Strachan and his Calvinista ilk are skating very close to the edge, evil-wise…
    What is going on with these people? Do they honestly think they’re serving Christ? I simply do no get it. But then, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, as it were…

    As to your question… I have long wondered the same. Do they honestly think…?

    I shake my head in bewilderment and dismay as I walk away.


  54. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    lol I had to laugh at some of their phrases when referring to the subject matter. I wont go any further. Dee I dont know how you read these guys and yes most of them are guys with a capital G. LOL. I would go nutz. As usual you gave us alot to think on.


  55. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    roebuck wrote:

    Frankly? I think Strachan and his Calvinista ilk are skating very close to the edge, evil-wise…

    And on very thin ice, at that….


  56. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    Honestly, i think Strachan has created his own religion, one that might (like Dominionism and Third Wave spiritual warfare beliefs) nominally evoke Jesus, the Bible and many common xtian terms, but has little or nothing to do with what Christ actually does and teaches in the Gospels.

    I agree.


  57. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Random aside:

    Having seen the video/story linked below from a Calvinista POV I have some questions. I wonder how someone who is totally depraved could do something like this? There must have been something selfish in it for him, that’s the only explanation. I hope he first asked to make sure the girl wasn’t LGBT before he did this. Wait, because she’s a girl shouldn’t she be giving him stuff?

    http://www.wimp.com/everyone-cheering/

    At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, ‘Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?’ He called a child, whom he put among them, and said, ‘Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes humble like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. The part of Matthew 18 that too often ignored.


  58. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    You all are now running a night shift? How do you do that?


  59. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    Jesus said something very chilling about the religious leaders of his own tribe: They are getting their “reward” now. In God’s economy, I would rather be a person that struggles with homosexuality (or whatever) than a charlatan who uses Jesus for fame and profit and to get as many followers after themselves as they can. I personally think they have things very backward.

    Well said!!


  60. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Adam Borsay:

    I don’t doubt your good intentions even though I take issue with your conclusions right much. But here is the thing. You must know that you live and preach at a time in human history when most people are firmly convinced that there is objective evidence of death disease and disorder in creation long before there is objective evidence of humans or human like creatures in creation. The idea of ‘original sin’ as meaning ‘retroactive sin’ does not float with lots of folks. In light of this, obviously, the concepts of sexuality and biology and origins are all entangled just as Josh and numo discuss. IMO at some point those portions of the church who have not dealt with this concept are going to have to deal with it. Tis too and tis not won’t do the job.


  61. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:

    Of course, there are all the various biological conditions that come under the “intersex” heading as well

    Notice Strachan carefully avoided mentioning intersexuality. Transgenderism he can try to explain away as a delusion. He can’t do that with ambiguous organs, ambiguous chromosomes, or chromosomes and organs that don’t match.

    There are a lot of questions comps either can’t or won’t answer about intersexuality and how it fits into their system. If they continue to stake their whole theology (and apparently now Christianity itself) on the existence of two absolutely clear binary sexes and no deviation from that whatsoever, they’re not only ignoring science, they’re setting themselves up for failure. Intersex conditions are becoming better known by a larger number of people, so the number of people asking Strachan this question is only going to go up. He has to at least try to deal with it. Pretending it doesn’t exist is not going to work.

    What makes this even sadder is that there’s a pretty good chance Jesus’ reference to “eunuchs from birth” is a reference to people with some kind of intersex condition. Jesus saw fit to mention these folks, but CBMW can’t because they scare them.


  62. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    What makes this even sadder is that there’s a pretty good chance Jesus’ reference to “eunuchs from birth” is a reference to people with some kind of intersex condition. Jesus saw fit to mention these folks, but CBMW can’t because they scare them.

    Absolutely. He did mention some sort of congenital condition and he did not condemn these people but merely included them in those not suited for marriage.


  63. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ JeffT:
    What a beautiful gesture! Thanks for posting that, Jeff!


  64. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    mirele wrote:

    1b) If the statute of limitations has not passed, I do believe there may be an affirmative duty upon the person who received this information to go to law enforcement despite the existence of this hush fund and agreement.

    I could not get this out of my mind the entire time I was reading it. If it was as recent as 3 years prior to the lawsuit then why wasn’t he contacting the authorities?


  65. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Muff Potter:

    I think it is more like they are desperately trying to reclaim the glory days of CBMW.


  66. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jed Paschall wrote:

    even as a crusty old Calvinist

    I like crusty old Calvinists. I eat lunch with one almost every Sunday. Hence the word *Calvinista.* Still looking for a word that describes some Arminians who, except for election, sound just like the Calvinistas.


  67. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jed Paschall wrote:

    Hopefully I live long enough to read some bright young historian’s PhD thesis “The Rise and Fall of New Calvinism in 21st Century America”. It’ll be a page turner for sure.

    May you be counted amongst the prophets!


  68. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    You can always tell a Westminster California old Calvinist. They must use the word “robust” at least once per writing, as Jed did in his first post. Remember, dee, these are the same people who says “who is in and who is out” as to the keys of the kingdom. They may be old earth but they are still High Church.


  69. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:

    I should add that I don’t read Jesus as saying it’s wrong for intersex people to marry; many of them do. Though in Jesus’ day, I’m sure a person with one of the more visible types of condition probably wouldn’t have married, which is my take on what He was talking about here. There are also certain conditions that people in Jesus’ day wouldn’t have been able to identify because they’re chromosomal, completely internal, etc. Those people would have married as usual and no one would have been the wiser, though they might have been barren/infertile.

    Here’s a page with info about some different conditions, in case you’re curious.

    http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions


  70. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    While you could say that a decision to pursue anything that God forbids is a decision to reject God, one stands on quicksand to claim that desires for (i.e. attraction to) illicit things come about exclusively because people have rejected God.

    Here is my take on this.

    I think the reason that Jesus came is because we all pursue things that are not of God. Well, at least I will admit that I do. The Old Testament is a testimony to that very problem. I am currently attending a church in which a confession of sins is done on a weekly basis during the service. Part of the liturgy talks about sins known and unknown. I like that.There is much that I do not perceive about myself.

    What I love about the grace given to me by Jesus is that I know I want to follow Him and I can also admit that I don’t follow him in every aspect of my life. His grace covers that and that frees me. I am forgiven for all things known and unknown.

    Until the day we die, we all will make choices that are sinful. The real key is this. Pete Briscoe said it best. Christians are walking a tough road as we head to the goal of living with Jesus in heaven. We all will fall down, numerous times. What constitutes a Christian is that the Christian will eventually get up, brush himself off, and continue on down the road, repeating that scenario until the day we are called home. The Christian continues and does not give up because (s)he knowns forgiveness.

    What Jesus did on the Cross is to reconcile us to God so that even when we stumble and fall, we are covered by His righteousness and encouraged by His spirit. We are positionally holy but functionally sinners and there is great freedom in understanding that.


  71. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    o, while Cancer is a result of Sin,

    True story. When my daughter was 3, she was diagnosed with a large brain tumor and the prognosis was pretty bad. People were really kind to our family, bringing meals, etc. However, one thing people should never ask a victim of cancer is “What caused it?”

    Trust me, we went over and over in our minds if we did anything even though that is silly. I even had people ask me if my time on the Navajo Reservation may have contributed to the tumor since there is uranium mining there! How comforting! No good deed goes unpunished…

    So, one day in a grocery store, another neighbor came up to me and asked “What do you think caused her tumor?” And it hit me. I looked at her and said “You did.” And then I pointed at myself and all the people in the store and said “We all did. It is part of dealing with the aftermath of the fall.”

    She looked shocked and I guarantee that she never asked that question again. In fact, she probably told neighbors that I was losing it.


  72. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Tree:
    Crichton hooked me with Andromeda Strain years ago and I have read almost everything he has written.You have great taste!

    I read so much serious stuff during the day, I like to relax with a good thriller or science fiction at night. It relaxes me before I go to sleep.

    Right now, I am reading a fascinating novel called The Book of Strange New Things. It is a sort of science fiction with a Christian bent that has received a fair amount of acclaim by even the New York Times. It is definitely different.

    Here is a link if anyone is interested.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Strange-New-Things/dp/055341884X


  73. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ mirele:
    Brent Detweiler is a former apostle of SGM and has been the impetus behind the release of all sorts of emails and documents that have caused great embarrassment to CJ Mahaney and BFFs in SGM.

    Brent has his own style and way of doing things. I, for one, am grateful that he has released everything because it has led to the shake up at SGM. Things will never be quite the same.

    From what I understand, Brent has given all sorts of documents in the past to law enforcement so I would imagine he might do the same thing here. I will post this information in a quickie post today.


  74. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester

    Pursuing your idea, and looking at ways to understand scripture, and the need for some leeway in the matter, this issue may fit in with that discussion.

    I agree with you big time on this issue of eunuchs from birth.

    The guys had said to Jesus ‘If…then it is better not to marry.” And Jesus listed some situations at that point. I am thinking he was agreeing with them that there are some circumstances when it is better not to marry, but it is perfectly obvious that he did not write a new law to enforce. I am thinking that better not to is not the same as must not ever on pain of sin. But he did say that whoever could accept ‘this’ should accept it. So strictly speaking he combined better not to (which the guys said) with a should (which he added) but he did not say must and/or are forbidden to. Now, he was talking as you say about conditions which were known at the time and which his listeners would understand. I am thinking that it is not best to carry that idea too far under the idea that Jesus meant a whole lot more than he said, such as to conclude that should and must are identical terms. I think we can pick up the idea and make some current decisions based on the principle, but again we must not put words into Jesus’ mouth which were not there.

    And again my strict and specific reading of scripture (as nearly as I can) lands me in the mushy middle position on some contested idea. But I just don’t see Jesus as a fanatic-more as a healer.


  75. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    For many Christians, there is a belief that sin affected the world in more ways than just man’s inhumanity. We can assume that the world, as God created, was not meant to have cancer, diabetes, sickle cell anemia, etc. We do know that death was not part of the plan either.

    When my husband was involved in receptor research, he came home one day and told me that something sure screwed up a lot of receptors. He believe the screw up came from the sin effect.

    We also know that the new heaven and the new earth will be free from such pain. There appears to be a direct correlation between the original creation of the earth and the recreation of the earth. Paradis lost will become Paradise found.


  76. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    What makes this even sadder is that there’s a pretty good chance Jesus’ reference to “eunuchs from birth” is a reference to people with some kind of intersex condition. Jesus saw fit to mention these folks, but CBMW can’t because they scare them.

    Because intersex is UNMANLY. (With the pants-peeing fear of contagion?)

    You know what these Calvinista Comps (whose ideology will Solve All Problems, just like Communism) must see in the mirror? The Perfect Type Example of The Elect? An Ayn Rand Manly-Man Hero without the cigarettes and obsession with “Am I Getting FAT?”


  77. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    he Perfect Type Example of The Elect? An Ayn Rand Manly-Man Hero without the cigarettes and obsession with “Am I Getting FAT?”

    You never fail to make me laugh!


  78. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Well, i think it is more accurate to say “We believe.” Also, not all xtians hold to the interpretation you do, as I’m sure you know. Ergo, some of us believe differently than you on these issues.

    I guess i must not have made that clear in my original post on the dubject. It is difficilt, sometimes, to compress things forthe purpose of blog vomments.


  79. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    That is why I said “for many Christians, there is a belief.”


  80. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This is why the Millinials are no longer are religious.
    They are running far and fast away from anything that says a god. I taught many Millinials who grew up religious who, due to teaching just like this are no longer faithful.
    Sure there are youth in these churches, but they are just a small fraction of the age group. Those in these churches are seen as buffoons…..by this age group.
    These guys are doing more harm than good……doing so, just to keep their fiefdom alive.


  81. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    I wrote a post on their definition of of freedom in Christ. They say you are now free to obey. So, start being obedient, immediately.

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/05/12/grace-and-obedience-why-i-agree-with-tullian-tchividjian-and-not-with-jen-wilkin/

    I read it. Right on target. Also good comments by Dr. Fundystan and by Jeri Massi.


  82. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    Still looking for a word that describes some Arminians who, except for election, sound just like the Calvinistas.

    Arministas?


  83. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee, regarding a little light reading before bed: have you seen the Alan Bradley series featuring Flavia de Luce, an 11 year old chemistry whiz and poisons enthusiast? The first one is called The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie. So far there are seven books in the series and I’ll bet they would be right up your alley.


  84. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo

    @dee

    These two points of view cannot, IMO, be reconciled. If some group chooses the wrong answer to this they will probably be easing themselves off the stage by doing so-either by God or by society. I just read the Wiki article. (I know it is not a good source to reference.) Anyhow, I was interested in the historical development of the idea, since I noted it was not mentioned in the ancient creeds. I have done myself a huge disservice in not realizing long before this that ignoring church history is a really bad idea. Anyhow the article was interesting about the catholic belief and the orthodox belief and the jewish and the muslim beliefs about sin and people and the world. And here is one takeaway: all these other people have a kinder and more hopeful idea of what it is to be human than do the calvinists. Who would have thought?


  85. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    formerly anonymous wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Still looking for a word that describes some Arminians who, except for election, sound just like the Calvinistas.
    Arministas?

    I like it….


  86. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Bookbolter: Thank you. I put it on my list over at Amazon.


  87. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ formerly anonymous:
    Its got play. I think I should introduce this one of these days with full credit to you!


  88. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    And here is one takeaway: all these other people have a kinder and more hopeful idea of what it is to be human than do the calvinists. Who would have thought?

    Not surprising. Like the Communists and Jihadis, the Calvinistas have poured themselves into their Ideology to the point all that was human has been poisoned off. There is only their Party Line.

    Adding to this is Calvinist Predestination and Total Depravity Worm Theology, often racing for the bottom with How Wicked Is My Heart. (And if everything is Sinful and Depraved, how can you appreciate reality?) So you approach Determinism and Nihilism. What a combination.


  89. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    So you approach Determinism and Nihilism. What a combination.

    That does seem to be the case.


  90. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    It is a culture of fatalism and death. I tell my friends to get their teens out of these SBC YRR churches. Did you know it is a sin not to be “broken” and stay broken in these places? Week in and out that is what is promoted: Brokeness. Nothing about living. Thank you, Al Mohler and John Piper.


  91. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    There appears to be a direct correlation between the original creation of the earth and the recreation of the earth. Paradis lost will become Paradise found.

    Hopefully with way better spaceships too. If we are talking about eternity here, I want at least a few billion years to explore every nook and cranny of God’s great creation.


  92. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Jed Paschall:

    Me too. NT Wright wrote a book Life After Life After Death, in which he says he thinks that ‘heaven’ is a temporary state but that the ultimate plan is a new heavens an a new earth. Which would mean, apparently not just rehabing and refurnishing the old place but something brand fresh and new. I found this book good reading.


  93. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:

    Yes, he makes a very good case for it, doesn’t he? He seems to be focused on debunking the traditional thinking that God is going to destroy completely the earth He created. Not so, says Wright. He is going to completely redeem it by joining the heaven and earth as described in Rev.


  94. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    But you did go on to say “weknow,” which is all i was trying to point out. Not a big deal, really, and sorry if I’m bein nit-picky.


  95. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Bookbolter:
    Those are marvelous books!


  96. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    I know! I was as surprised as you are, and pleasantly so, when i started investigating this. Now i have a place and belief that makes sense to me, and is a great relief re. who we are, how God sees us and much, much more.


  97. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Jed Paschall:
    One of the Jewish terms for the next life is “Gan Eden” = Garden of Eden.


  98. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The phrase six of one and half a dozen of the other comes to mind. Strachan strikes me as reactionary, meaning reacting to something he perceives happening amongst evangelicals. I don’t altogether disagree with him, and maybe being the days are over for being nice and gentle about it, I don’t know.

    I didn’t particularly like him plugging the CBMW although I wasn’t surprised, but I think he has a point here. IF Rachel Held Evans is in any way representative of the egalitarian ‘left’, then gender confusion will indeed lead to the acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism.

    The half a dozen of the other comes from reading the torrent of comments he has elicited, where for all the accusations of him being pharisaical, there was plenty of this in evidence from those who oppose him. An equal and opposite zeal that they’ve got it right.

    Now a dust up amongst American evangelicals doesn’t affect me particularly, but the issues hotly debated do. I think Christians in the West are going to come under real pressure on this issue, and are going to have to risk being thought of as unenlightened or even bigots. Tolerance is wearing thin, and your job can be on the line if you don’t affirm homosexuality.

    So it pays to examine where you stand on this and what sort of church to attend, and that does affect me. Just what does the bible say on this.

    One thing that did stike me is that Strachan should be more fearful of God and less fearful of gays. The temptation for me at any rate as I get older is to give in on this, until I am reminded of just who we are dealing with. I have been very gripped by the truth that God doesn’t change, and if we fight against him we can only lose. The flesh wars against the Spirit. Our God is a consuming fire, not a helpless grandmother.

    There are areas within evangelicalism which show only too clearly that we have lost the sense of the fear of God, and this is demonstrated in crassly ungodly, worldly behaviour. And if not that, then indifference, and I have been guilty of that at times over the last decade or so.

    Just thinking out loud a bit. Oh for a church with Strachan’s strength of conviction but minus the reactionary zeal, and not Evans’ compromised lukewarmness, being the sort of stuff on offer in my locality.


  99. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    And goodness knows, there are plenty of intersex people out there who don’t even know that they *are* intersex. (Like S. African runner Caster Semenya, prior to the uproar and testing a few Olympics ago.)


  100. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jed Paschall wrote:

    dee wrote:

    There appears to be a direct correlation between the original creation of the earth and the recreation of the earth. Paradis lost will become Paradise found.

    Hopefully with way better spaceships too. If we are talking about eternity here, I want at least a few billion years to explore every nook and cranny of God’s great creation.

    But that would take time away from Never-Ending Compulsory Bible Study!

    (Yes, that’s how Heaven(TM) was originally presented to me — Never-ending Church Service/Never-ending Bible Study, Absolutely Compulsory, Long Live Big Brother.)


  101. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    @ Jed Paschall:
    One of the Jewish terms for the next life is “Gan Eden” = Garden of Eden.

    Or “Gadda da Vida” if Bart Simpson’s doctored the hymnal.


  102. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Btw, i us3d to subscribe to “We live in a broken world” when i was in evangelical/charismatic circles. My view now is: it’s complicated. But, like you, i look forward to the life of the world to come (which is also a longstanding Jewish term, btw, though i am blanking on the Hebrew at the moment).


  103. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    As long as it’s biblical nihilism. They’ve pretty much already admitted to determinism, it’s just cloaked in adjectives of transcendence and humility.


  104. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    My dentist says he was a job cutting the grass in ‘heaven.’ He is serious about that. I am not sure with ‘perfection’ if the grass will need cut, but I could not tell him that with that suction thing in my mouth at the time.


  105. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:

    wants, not was


  106. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Godith wrote:

    You can always tell a Westminster California old Calvinist. They must use the word “robust” at least once per writing, as Jed did in his first post. Remember, dee, these are the same people who says “who is in and who is out” as to the keys of the kingdom. They may be old earth but they are still High Church.

    Gear down there Godith! I can’t even be trusted with my car keys, much less the keys of the kingdom. What’s most important to us old-timey Calvinists is that week in and week out we gather together in God’s presence on the Lord’s Day, hear his Word, confess our sins, see our hope in the gospel, and be nourished at the Table in communion together with those gathered and with us and all in the church at large who commune together in faith (e.g. all those Lutherans, Baptists, and Wesleyans we have doctrinal issues with). And on an especcially blessed Lord’s Day we can witness God’s work in baptism – usually with his most precious little ones, and the occasional Adult convert. This is at the beating heart of our Reformed understanding of the faith.

    Except for our Tuesday meetings where we plot the overthrow of everything that smacks of joy in the church, and how we can make small children cry. I would tell you more, but you don’t know the secret handshake.

  107. Pingback: Theology-related quote of the day | Civil Commotion


  108. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Godith wrote:

    They may be old earth but they are still High Church.

    I don’t think so. We are ‘high church’, and that is a whole different thing.


  109. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:

    The half a dozen of the other comes from reading the torrent of comments he has elicited, where for all the accusations of him being pharisaical, there was plenty of this in evidence from those who oppose him. An equal and opposite zeal that they’ve got it right.

    Does “zeal that you’ve got it right” (i.e., having a strong opinion) automatically = pharisaism? I wouldn’t think so. I was under the impression that folks were calling Strachan pharisaical because he claimed a secondary debatable issue (gender roles) was essential to orthodox Christianity (and that is basically what he meant), not just because he has a strong opinion on the topic.


  110. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Virginia Knowles wrote:

    …from Jared Wilson … “Why is this even a question?”

    Well, I’m sure he explains in the comments to you and all the other commenters… let’s see… crickets chirping… oh that’s right… he doesnt!
    Well, at least he has lots of scriptural support for his beliefs… oh, that’a right… not a jot or a tittle!


  111. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:

    Umm. If you can legislate or intimidate the women into subjugation then somehow there won’t be any more uppity GLBT people giving you any trouble? And that would be how? That makes sense to you? You have chapter and verse on that, that GLBT people will take the cue from subjugated women and slink away out of sight? Scientific research maybe? This feels like the twilight zone.


  112. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    This one would be a good one to discuss over at the open discussion thread.


  113. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    High Church Presbyterians are not like High Church Anglicans, Catholics, or Lutherans. I can find you some links if you want.


  114. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Godith:

    I will google it, and if I can’t find anything I will get back with you.


  115. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    and are going to have to risk being thought of as unenlightened or even bigots.

    Well, fact is, a lot are extremely bigoted and make no bones about it. I don’t think the problems facing us are what you think they are, but then, we usually disagree on these sorts of topics.


  116. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hey Folks,
    I just posted under the topic of a few days ago, then saw this topic and decided to ask the question here. My Dad has been pretty ill, so I have been spending more time with family recently. The topic of LGBT people has come up in various contexts, mostly talking about family members of one persuasion or another, and how we all feel about it. I have difficulty expressing my opinion, and don’t want to sound bigoted. I am conservative on the topic, but truly love at least the people I know who are part of that community. But looking for resources to help me develop well thought out views and things to say. I think Jesus would be hanging out with these folks if he were on earth now, but I don’t express myself as well as he did.


  117. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    IF Rachel Held Evans is in any way representative of the egalitarian ‘left’, then gender confusion will indeed lead to the acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism.

    What do you do with someone like me who is more of an egalitarian yet is Side B on the issue? RHE does not represent a large number of people who are conservative and egalitarian.

    Ken wrote:

    The half a dozen of the other comes from reading the torrent of comments he has elicited, where for all the accusations of him being pharisaical, there was plenty of this in evidence from those who oppose him. An equal and opposite zeal that they’ve got it right.

    Really? Did any of us here on this blog, and in particular, me, accuse him of having a neutered gospel and oh so slyly call into question his commitment to the gospel? I did ask to what gospel he was referring since I am never sure with these guys.

    I know so many people who love the Lord, love the Gospel, serve God on the mission field, etc and are neither *confessional* nor complementarian. There is nothing in the Gospel that seems to indicate that such beliefs separate one from the gospel.


  118. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Former CLC’er:
    Saying a prayer for you, your dad and family… 🙁


  119. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    I think Christians in the West are going to come under real pressure on this issue, and are going to have to risk being thought of as unenlightened or even bigots. Tolerance is wearing thin, and your job can be on the line if you don’t affirm homosexuality.

    So what? Christians have often been counter cultural. How is this going to hurt me? So what if the culture goes to hell in a handbasket? Jesus still saves. In fact, it is often during such times that the faith flourishes. I think we Christians are wimps when it comes to comparing us with the early Christians. Bring it on. I can show the love of Jesus in the worst of situations.

    And then to our shame, Christians have supported and advocated for racism and slavery.


  120. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Neo-Calvinism can be cured by going on the Gospel Diet: You read the Gospels only, nothing else, for six months. After a while, you realize Calvinistas probably don’t actually know Jesus.


  121. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    So, one day in a grocery store, another neighbor came up to me and asked “What do you think caused her tumor?” And it hit me. I looked at her and said “You did.” And then I pointed at myself and all the people in the store and said “We all did. It is part of dealing with the aftermath of the fall.”

    John 9 comes to mind where Jesus was asked by his disciples whose sin caused the man’s blindness from birth. Jesus responded that the blindness was not caused by sin. Is the man in John 9 just one unique instance or is it possible the aftermath of the fall may not be the cause of all our sickness, etc?


  122. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Former CLC’er wrote:

    The topic of LGBT people has come up in various contexts, mostly talking about family members of one persuasion or another, and how we all feel about it. I have difficulty expressing my opinion, and don’t want to sound bigoted. I am conservative on the topic, but truly love at least the people I know who are part of that community.

    I am so sorry about your dad.

    Here are a few suggestions that would fit in with where you are.

    Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (Book)
    The Gay Christian Network-Side B https://www.gaychristian.net/sideb.php
    Spiritual Friendship website-lots of great posts
    Sam Alberry http://www.livingout.org/who-we-are
    Debate at Christianity Today-should i go to a gay friends wedding. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/march/gay-wedding-attend-christian-marriage-family.html


  123. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    So what? Christians have often been counter cultural. How is this going to hurt me? So what if the culture goes to hell in a handbasket? Jesus still saves. In fact, it is often during such times that the faith flourishes. I think we Christians are wimps when it comes to comparing us with the early Christians. Bring it on. I can show the love of Jesus in the worst of situations.

    And then to our shame shame, Christians have supported and advocated for racism and slavery.

    YESSSSSS.
    And while the comfortable yet uncomfortable West slugs it out in the culture wars, other Christians elsewhere in the world still get to die for their beliefs. And even better – then have the ‘privilege’ after death of being labelled as ‘not Christian’ (ref recent Coptic Christians who died in Libya). These guys (and the women who support them) only eat fruit and nuts, I tell you.


  124. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Joe2:
    Good point.
    Tell me what you think about this question. If the Garden was perfect-no illness, no aging no death, etc., then where did all the bad stuff come from?


  125. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Aside: Why is it I always have to dance to Taylor Swift’s Shake It Off?


  126. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    Owen sounds like a desparate business owner tooting his own horn and pushing his comp brand out of pure desparation for sales.

    Well, yes, but I am not offended by used car salesmen. Everyone has to feed the beast. The problem I have is that Owen and the tribe at CBMW have no problem promoting heresy (ESS), mangling the Bible, and reading their social prejudices into Christian theology. It’s really no wonder about the rise of the ‘dones’.


  127. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Janey wrote:

    Neo-Calvinism can be cured by going on the Gospel Diet: You read the Gospels only, nothing else, for six months. After a while, you realize Calvinistas probably don’t actually know Jesus.

    Well, I’ve been ticking off people this week in my blog. May write a blog and suggest this….


  128. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @Victorious – thanks for the prayers. @Dee – thanks for the prayers and the resources. Dad is getting ready to go to Jesus – we’re just not sure how long. I think the emotions and the driving back and forth to Connecticut have affected my brain. As well as the strain of seeing him like this. So reading about something else is actually helping me be in a little bit of denial. 🙂 Maybe I need to listen to “Shake It Off” while driving!


  129. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ K.D.:

    K.D. — Good idea. Run with it! Let them get ticked off.


  130. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have heard from Gram3. She was on vacation and then came home and got sick. She will check in with us soon. She says “hi.”


  131. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    How is this going to hurt me? So what if the culture goes to hell in a handbasket? Jesus still saves.

    Put that on a T-shirt, & I’ll buy a half-dozen (assorted colours).
    Seriously, that is so wonderfully, profoundly true….Thank you, Dee!!


  132. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    Does “zeal that you’ve got it right” (i.e., having a strong opinion) automatically = pharisaism?

    No it doesn’t, I agree with you. But to the extent that complementarianism (ghastly word!) is a secondary issue, the reaction against it is frequently the mirror image of those who, it is claimed, push this as though it is the most important thing since sliced bread. So it’s six of one and half a dozen of the other.


  133. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    Umm. If you can legislate or intimidate the women into subjugation then somehow there won’t be any more uppity GLBT people giving you any trouble?

    No-one is talking about legislation or subjugating anyone (as far as I am concerned at any rate, and you comment surprised me somewhat in this regard).

    God has create us male and female, husband and wives, fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, and these are not interchangeable. Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable, or that ‘gender’ is a social construct running along a continuum. From that you can then argue a ‘man can lie with a man as with a woman’, or that men can dress and look like women and vice versa.

    I think this is the point Strachan is making in his ‘complementariamism is the last stand’ against homosexuality and transgenderism.

    By pure fluke, the following is currently on the BBC site. It’s not mainstream Europe and not unlikely to catch on in any big way, but it does show a side of the depravity of modern bourgois European ‘culture’ for the rich elite, with its fullness of food, and abundance of idleness.

    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20150331-womens-clothes-for-men


  134. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Jed Paschall:
    You laugh about “the keys” but it is no laughing matter. And no communion for those who are not church members of a Gospel (TM) preaching church, right? Very much like Mark Dever and his 9Marks. In fact, except for infant vs. believers’ baptism, I think High Church Presbyterianism is indistinguishable from 9Marks churches. What say ye, Jed?


  135. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    It’s not mainstream Europe and not unlikely to catch on in any big way, but it does show a side of the depravity of modern bourgois European ‘culture’ for the rich elite, with its fullness of food, and abundance of idleness.

    Ken, while I’m not suggesting men should dress like women or visa versa, fashion is very much a cultural issue. Years ago I remember a woman sent home from her job at Xerox for wearing women’s slacks as they were considered men’s pants. Women wore “tank” tops, but with a new “label” men called them “muscle” shirts and wore them. And who knew that boys wore dresses (that were considered gender-neutral) until about the age of 6-7 when they got their first hair cut. That included FDR btw.

    And this from the Smithsonian Institute:

    a June 1918 article from the trade publication Earnshaw’s Infants’ Department said, “The generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.” Other sources said blue was flattering for blonds, pink for brunettes; or blue was for blue-eyed babies, pink for brown-eyed babies, according to Paoletti.

    In 1927, Time magazine printed a chart showing sex-appropriate colors for girls and boys according to leading U.S. stores. In Boston, Filene’s told parents to dress boys in pink. So did Best & Co. in New York City, Halle’s in Cleveland and Marshall Field in Chicago.

    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/when-did-girls-start-wearing-pink-1370097/?no-ist

    All the fuss over gender-neutral clothing is nothing more than a scare tactic.


  136. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Long time lurker, but first time commenting here. It’s strange how Owen Strachan thinks that complementarianism is needed to defend the traditional Christian idea if marriage when some of the most prominent critics of same-sex marriage are egalitarian (Richard Hays, Robert Gagnon, Ben Witherington, NT Wright although he’s complementarianish in regards to marriage, etc).


  137. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    @ numo:

    There are a lot of questions comps either can’t or won’t answer about intersexuality and how it fits into their system. If they continue to stake their whole theology (and apparently now Christianity itself) on the existence of two absolutely clear binary sexes and no deviation from that whatsoever, they’re not only ignoring science, they’re setting themselves up for failure. Intersex conditions are becoming better known by a larger number of people, so the number of people asking Strachan this question is only going to go up. He has to at least try to deal with it. Pretending it doesn’t exist is not going to work.

    I’m glad this came up again on this thread. It got lost a little in the last one. Some of the questions I do wish would be addressed include: what if a woman gets married to a man and then she finds out she is genetically male perhaps even with undecended testes, when she is dealing with infertility? Is this relationship null and void now that they know she is actually male?
    Or what if a child grows up with ambiguous sex organs and decides not to choose either gender but is not asexual. Is this person in sin if they date/get married?

    I used to think the question of where the line is drawn was easy, but it’s not… If a guy has same sex attraction and discovers he is genetically female is it wrong for him to change his gender/name legally so that he is now legally a woman and can date men and are the me. Who date him/her sinning because she/ grew up believing she was a boy? This is much more complex and difficult an issue that most Christians believe it is.


  138. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sorry that should be “men who” not “me. Who”


  139. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I strongly disagree with Owen Strachan regarding the supposed “conundrum.”

    But then I don’t see there as being a conundrum at all. I fully accept that there are some who suffer from chimerism, and some who suffer from being intersexed. I have no problem with the idea science truly can help them sort out if they are male or female. Once they are comfortable with their sexual identity, however, I believe they come under the strictures we all do–that sex is for a man and a woman and within marriage. Now, I am not about to tell a “woman” who discovers she is genetically male which she is. She, her doctor, and her own conscience are capable of figuring that out. I would only argue if she decides she is truly female and yet wants to have sex with women.

    But then, I don’t believe right and wrong are decided by consensus. A Yahoo headline today tells me “the world is changing.” Maybe. Maybe it is. But right and wrong do not change. They may be more accepted at times, less at others, but there truly is a right and a wrong and they do not change. When my postmodern friends tell me there are “no absolutes” they just stated an absolute.

    I don’t see the role of the church or of Christians as trying to change the world. We can only proclaim the unvarnished truth. It doesn’t serve us well to let Satan bog us down in arguments about what is truth. The truth is plain as the nose on your face as to right and wrong IF you read the Bible without trying to explain it away.

    I also believe, as a nonCalvinist free gracer, that there are 3 kinds of people in the world. We humans do not know who is who, but God does.

    Those three are:

    1. The truly born again. These people have repented, meaning they have come to agree with God about sin and have sought the blood of Christ to cover their own sin. They won’t be perfect sinless people, and may indeed fail horribly daily to obey God, but they are trying. Their sanctification is in progress.

    2. The not born again yet. These people will be born again someday. They do not yet agree with God about sin, or agree with Him but have not yet sought forgiveness. They can be pretty rotten stinkers, or some of the nicest people you will ever meet. There does seem to be a hand of restraint on their sinful natures. We do not know they are going to be saved, but God knows they will freely choose Him someday and so orders the events in their worlds to facilitate that. Not preordained, not predestinated, but definitely foreknown.

    3. Those that will never be born again. These are not reprobated by God, doomed to no chance of being born again. However, since God is all knowing, knowing the end from the beginning, He is very aware that never under any circumstances would these people ever turn to Christ. I believe He therefore removes His restraining hand of common grace and lets them live as they wish, do what they will, believe what they want. They tend to be people who worship the creation rather than the Creator. When that hand of restraint is removed, they become totally lawless as to God’s law and strive to make up their own laws. Romans 1 gives a pretty good picture what that looks like. Some of them will be very religious, others totally nonreligious, doesn’t matter. In refusing to agree with God as to what is sin, they have effectively put themselves beyond redemption.

    Now, bear in mind, I do not believe God sorted people out into these 3 groups. We sort ourselves out. But since He knows who is who from the foundation of the world, I do believe He allows freely the outworking of our choosing.

    Right now I would say we live in a time when the majority of those in western Europe and the USA fall into that third category. And so we see the rush to form culture’s views of right and wrong according to what the sinful nature desires. We see religious people rush to defend that.

    And it truly doesn’t matter. It doesn’t. A person may strive mightily to change the world, succeed in conforming it to their own image, and still not have their name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    And at the end of time, that is truly all that will matter.


  140. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    God has create us male and female, husband and wives, fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, and these are not interchangeable. Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable, or that ‘gender’ is a social construct running along a continuum. From that you can then argue a ‘man can lie with a man as with a woman’, or that men can dress and look like women and vice versa.

    We have been down this road so many times I am not sure why I bother. You talk in terms of “roles” which is the issue. The reason male/female are not interchangable is “biology”, not distinct roles. Men cannot have babies. That is it. Period. The rest is a debate concerning who should do what as a female or a male in a “distinct” role for that gender. It is hogwash. Women were having babies in the cotton fields and in the back of wagons then sowing seeds.

    One thing that many Christians who quote the bible to us forget is tht in the NT, we (believers) are ALL referred to as “sons”. Both male and female believers are “sons”. Interesting, eh? That 1st Century audience understood the significance. In that sinful culture sons were considered better. A gift. Every husband/wife wanted “sons”. Women who could not produce a son were considered deficient. Daughters were a burden.

    Calling all believers “sons” communicated the equality

    Jesus Christ was supposed to change that thinking for believers. What happened? Ken, someday your wife might have to change your Depends. Will you be her spiritual leader or “repsonsible” for her then? Piper, CJ Mahaney and others say, yes. They even made a video about it using a brain damaged husband from an accident who was still considered teh wife’s spiritual leader. Even though she had the burden of everything from finances to caring for him. She was “responsible” yet he was her authority.


  141. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    The reason male/female are not interchangable is “biology”, not distinct roles. Men cannot have babies. That is it. Period.

    There are more biological differences between male and female that just that, but I understand what you are saying in general and pretty much agree.


  142. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I just don’t get it how the thinking goes. If some man stays home with the kids does that mean that the woman across the street and three doors down is going to declare herself a lesbian? Or are they afraid that the guy at home with the kids will as a consequence take up with the guy next door in inappropriate ways? If some woman gets promoted on the job instead of some man, are all the men in the department going to take up with each other sexually, as if they really all were born that way and this trauma activated that hidden genetic tendency until now? Or perhaps it is all a choice, and the men on the job chose to ‘like’ women, but now that they see it does not guarantee promotion at work they are going to ‘choose’ to ‘like’ each other, which was what they wanted to choose all along?

    Or do they think that it is all a choice, which they do seem to think, for both men and women, and unless strict role behavior walls are built the whole population will decide they ‘like’ their own sex better? Maybe they think our whole population stands on the brink of epidemic same-sex ‘choices.’ Maybe they think that some guy washing the supper dishes will recognize within himself some satisfaction associated with the supper dishes and that will push him over the brink?

    Or perhaps they think that women, given any choice at all in life will not choose them, specifically them.

    I don’t know, but I wish the hyper-comp guys would quit beating around the bush and just spell it out what it is that worries them so much.


  143. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    Priceless! Yes, I would like to know what worries them too.


  144. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    Christians have often been counter cultural. How is this going to hurt me? So what if the culture goes to hell in a handbasket? Jesus still saves. In fact, it is often during such times that the faith flourishes. I think we Christians are wimps when it comes to comparing us with the early Christians

    Be careful what you wish for.

    I’m not an hysterical evangelical who fears losing a supposed culture war, and we all need to avoid being so. But as far as Europe is concerned, and the UK in particular, there is the very real possibility of pressure being brought to bear if you don’t affirm the innate goodness of homosexuality. It’s already starting.

    There are not the same protections to religious freedoms that the US constitution has. We’ve not got to the stage of churches being forced to ordain homosexuals under anti-discrimination laws, it may never come, but I see precious little respect for the consciences of those who see this as wrong.

    This agenda is being pushed by homosexuals, it is not as though the church has been singling them out for special vilification. In fact in my lifetime and experience, this has largely been a non-issue, it is one sin amongst many.

    Now I don’t think martyrdom is just around the corner, but hate speech codes and similar could be a very useful way of shutting Christians up and sidelining them. Christian broadcasts already have to be censored in case they ‘offend’ someone.

    Even Peter Tatchell, a homosexual activist, has warned his fellow activists that they are in danger of mirroring the bigotted attitudes they claim Christians and those of other religions had or have towards gays. One wonders whether they will listen.


  145. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    zooey111 wrote:

    dee wrote:
    How is this going to hurt me? So what if the culture goes to hell in a handbasket? Jesus still saves.
    Put that on a T-shirt, & I’ll buy a half-dozen (assorted colours).
    Seriously, that is so wonderfully, profoundly true….Thank you, Dee!!

    Reminds me of a tee shirt I saw once, that said, “Where are we going, and what’s this handbasket doing here?”


  146. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    I have heard from Gram3. She was on vacation and then came home and got sick. She will check in with us soon. She says “hi.”

    Hi, Gram3. *waving* Get well soon.


  147. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    I’m annoyed by both; ESS and used car salesmen

    How is ESS heretical? Can someone please explain? And also, I have been steeped in “reformed” grace for too long. How does it differ from what you are saying “real grace” is? You mean it’s not really grace at all? What, then, *is* grace?


  148. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    The reason male/female are not interchangable is “biology”, not distinct roles

    In the most essential point, we are in agreement. (Did you not notice the italics in the sentence “Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable …?) The point being I am not interested in exactly who does what, but that homosexualty and transgenderism are wrong because a man or a woman is trying to be something they are not. It’s why God regards these are being an abomination, to use the old-fashioned OT expression.

    As regards all believers being ‘sons’, I understand this to mean all have the privileges of the first-born. Simmilarly, both men and women are the bride of Christ, and therefore in submission to Christ. The NT keeps a lovely balance!

    As a final observation if not plea, my views on this do not derive from American evangelicalism, with its innate tendency always to go to extremes. I’m not a disciple of Piper or Mahaney. If I end up an invalid and my wife has to look after me, she will be showing respect (and love) as commanded in the NT. She will also have to take up responsibilities either I should have but can longer carry out, or that would otherwise be shared. I don’t see the problem!


  149. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    @ lydia:

    They do keep saying that the Gospel is up for grabs if we don’t get comp right? Now these same issues were going on when Jesus walked the earth, yet he didn’t seem to spend much time on them.


  150. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    @ Nancy:
    @ lydia:
    They do keep saying that the Gospel is up for grabs if we don’t get comp right? Now these same issues were going on when Jesus walked the earth, yet he didn’t seem to spend much time on them.

    Well, you know the gospel is up for grabs for any number of reasons. Ken Ham says, for instance, that the problem is not believing in six-day creation. It seems the gospel is feeble and has no power to save unless the Spiritual Gurus help it along.


  151. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    I need to look into the Jewish and Orthodox perspectives on sin further. I wasn’t going to go down this rabbit hole, but I’m with you on the question of whether the A&E story was meant to be taken literally (I’m with not). But that comes by holding my interpretation of scripture and the clear evidence of how God’s act of creation was worked out in the physical world in a [hopefully] appropriate degree of tension, and that’s a topic for another day – well, I think that’s come up here more than a time or two before, anyway.

    Excellent topic for the open thread here at TWW. Especially the differences between the Jewish and Augustinian concepts of sin. I’m game if you are.


  152. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Muff Potter:

    You ought to go for that Muff. Original sin and/or original guilt and/or neither is a core issue in a lot of things. I imagine gram3 might get involved on the subject when she gets back.


  153. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    “Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable …

    Honestly, I have never seen anyone doing this, as you purport.


  154. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    Oh, drat! I thought we might be able to get through one thread without that dreaded agenda raising its ugly head!

    You know, my copy must have gotten lost in the mail. I didn’t get my laminated membership card or “free gift,” either! I’m sorely disappointed! 😮


  155. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Lots of people I know refer to what’s in their appointment calendars as “the gay agenda.” 😉


  156. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    Someone could make $$$ selling appointment calendars that were labelled as “the gay agenda,” I’m thinking – maybe someone already has? Either way, it could be a fun “silly” gift.


  157. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Wait, wait, didn’t Owen’s buddy just post a big thing about how not even a mite of dust is blown left or right without God’s orchestration? So, if it is all out of our hands anyways, what does it matter if we are comps or not???? This guy is contradicting his own theology.


  158. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Angelacfr:

    This is much more complex and difficult an issue that most Christians believe it is.

    Agreed!


  159. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:

    Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable, or that ‘gender’ is a social construct running along a continuum.

    I actually do think there are likely hardwired sex differences in the brain. (Though what they are and how extensive they are, medically, I haven’t the foggiest clue. I doubt very much that they’re what most popular commentators think they are – men are more logical, women are naturally better with children, etc.) The idea that gender is 100% socially constructed seems to be contradicted by cases like this one:

    http://www.isna.org/faq/reimer

    That being said…

    There’s actually boatloads of medical evidence demonstrating that physical sex does run on a continuum between male and female, with intersex conditions ranged in the middle. Some of these conditions result in a more female-like body, others in a more male-like body. And those don’t necessarily correlate with what gonad the person has (i.e., ovary or testicle). Some people have what are called ovotestes, which is a gonad with a mix of ovarian and testicular tissue.

    http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ovo-testes

    So if you were hoping to use gonads as a 100% foolproof method to determine sex, you’re out of luck. Chromosomes don’t work either because you can get things like XXXY and such like. There are simply some people who are of indeterminate or at least doubtful sex, physically, and not due to any “rebellion” on their part. How do these people fit into your theories? I hope you have something a lot more concrete than “wisdom is called for in those cases.”


  160. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Addendum @ Ken:

    But I also don’t think gender as 100% hardwired either. I actually think the majority of what most people think of as “gender roles” is socially constructed and cultural. But there probably is some kind of hardwired “core” underneath all the cultural stuff. Though at this point I don’t think anyone can actually determine what that core consists of.


  161. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    As regards all believers being ‘sons’, I understand this to mean all have the privileges of the first-born. Simmilarly, both men and women are the bride of Christ, and therefore in submission to Christ. The NT keeps a lovely balance!

    It is the FULL inheritance of the 1st born…is how that audience would have understood it. Pretty radical stuff for the 1st Century woman.

    There are other understandings of the Bride of Christ. (That terminology is not in the NT, btw). If you have ever looked at how a Jewish wedding was conducted in those times, it is easier to understand. The body of believers make up the “guests” who will attend the wedding of the lamb. The bride is none other than what Rev 21:9-10 has stated it to be, the holy city, New Jerusalem.

    This all got mixed up early on when the “church” replaced Israel. It is really interesting to do a very deep study on this and how it would have been understood by early followers of Christ. One person said that if you have ever seen Fiddler on the Roof and watch how the wedding gets started and then how guests keep adding to the procession (on the way to the new city), some of those parables will make more sense)


  162. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    “Enter the secular culture rebelling against this and saying there are no distinct roles, male and female are interchangeable …?)

    Not sure how that can be since men cannot have babies. Can you name some of the distinct roles you think are imperative for women/men that will keep men from becoming homosexuals and women, lesbians? I am trying to get a feel for what exactly you think they are rebelling against?

    I will clarify my position that as a libertarian I just don’t see the point in trying to micromanage culture like that. If their behavior is hurting others or violating their liberties then that is different. Now, I have seen some very vulgar behavior in public by both homosexuals and heterosexuals that I had wished the authorities would intervene. Can be embarrassing if you are vacationing with your kids, for example.

    I do not think homosexuality was God’s intention. I don’t think fat genes were God’s intention nor Down Syndrome, etc, etc.


  163. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    We live in a college town, and like Lydia, it would be nice if more businesses were like a few we have, clearly posting “NO public displays of affection.” Don’t think they will harass a grandma hugging a toddler, but also don’t think they will like gays fawning all over each other any more than they do straights.

    We could us a tad more decorum in public out of everybody.


  164. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    homosexualty and transgenderism are wrong because a man or a woman is trying to be something they are not. It’s why God regards these are being an abomination, to use the old-fashioned OT expression.

    There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.

    Why don’t we pick on these seven abominations from time to time? Why is homosexuality the only one we protest and ignore the others? Proverbs alone lists 17 abominations. Why do we think one is more evil than the others?


  165. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    But I also don’t think gender as 100% hardwired either. I actually think the majority of what most people think of as “gender roles” is socially constructed and cultural.

    I’m 100% with you on this one, and I’d say that the hard-wired “core” is far smaller than any CBMW type would permit. But I will throw in my hat with the science that says there are subtle brain-based differences, as described in this research summary:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/24/gender-toys-children-toy-preferences-hormones_n_1827727.html

    (I seem to recall reading about similar research that also showed results correlated with sexuality, which I think had a [slight?] reversing effect on the toy preference trends described; I could be making that up, but there is definitive research showing brain structure differences between gay/lesbian vs. straight and trans* vs. cisgendered, if not specific to toy preference in young children.)


  166. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:

    I’m 100% with you on this one, and I’d say that the hard-wired “core” is far smaller than any CBMW type would permit.

    Oh, definitely. This is why that infuriating Mark Gungor talk “A Tale of Two Brains” makes me want to climb the wall and scream. “Men’s brains are made of little boxes and they only talk about one subject at a time, women’s brains are this tangled web of emotion and they remember everything!” Barf. When people use this stuff to excuse bad behavior it makes me even madder. Like here, where an average hearing sensitivity difference of 2 dB (= tiny) becomes “little boys behave badly because they literally can’t hear their parents’ instructions”:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130331130906/http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003419.html

    Per the monkeys, it would be interesting to see what they would find if they studied the hormonal makeup of children who liked the “wrong” toys for their gender, like me who always hated dolls (though I never was into stuff in wheels either). Women do have some level of testosterone so it would be worth looking into. In fact my mom’s friend’s sister was recently diagnosed with “low T” and they had to put testosterone capsules under her skin to get her testosterone level back to normal.

    I have heard of the gay/straight and trans/cis brain research, but unfortunately don’t know where to find a source for that stuff that isn’t behind an academic paywall.


  167. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:

    I’m only finding summaries of the research, not actual articles, so I’ll assume that you’ve already seen the same stuff I’ve seen, but for anyone else who’s interested, here’s one summary:

    http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2008/06/20/brains-of-gay-people-resemble-those-of-straight-people-of-opposite-sex/


  168. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Victorious wrote:

    Why don’t we pick on these seven abominations from time to time? Why is homosexuality the only one we protest and ignore the others? Proverbs alone lists 17 abominations. Why do we think one is more evil than the others?

    Did you notice my ealier comment:

    This agenda is being pushed by homosexuals, it is not as though the church has been singling them out for special vilification. In fact in my lifetime and experience, this has largely been a non-issue, it is one sin amongst many.

    I agree with you the church should call all sinners to repent from all ‘abominations’. I’d go further and say it needs to get its own house in order, of which one area is sexual immorality amongst its own members in general, and sinful remarriage after divorce in particular.

    But if homosexuality and transgenderism are sinful, the church cannot go along with them. The question (for evangelicals at least) is then what does the bible teach on this? If the bible describes such bahaviours as sin, then are we going to ignore the bible so as not to ‘offend’ the surrounding culture? This latter is surely why this issue is so important.

    Are we going to submit the bible, Jesus and the apostles he sent, to modern psychological insights and advances that they could never have had? Has God waited for us sophisticated and educated people of the 21st century to reveal new knowledge about this subject? Or are we going to treat people as being made in the image of God, that volition is real and notwithstanding their environment playing a part as responsible for their actions, rather than blaming them on evolutionary predestination over which they have no control?


  169. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    If the bible describes such bahaviours as sin, then are we going to ignore the bible so as not to ‘offend’ the surrounding culture? This latter is surely why this issue is so important.

    Ken, I’m standing very firmly on the premise of loving my neighbor as myself and seeing Jesus’ treatment of sinners as my example to follow. The only individuals He reprimanded and exposed their self-righteous attitudes were the religious, hypocrites who continually pointed out the sins of others.

    When we come to the realization that Jesus died for every sinner (regardless of the type), we will refuse the pompous, critical, judgmental attitude that refuses to …treat people the same way you want them to treat you….Matt. 7:12

    Or are we going to treat people as being made in the image of God, that volition is real and notwithstanding their environment playing a part as responsible for their actions, rather than blaming them on evolutionary predestination over which they have no control?

    No one here has whitewashed any sin…ever! They are, however, advocating love, mercy, and grace just as we are given by the Lord “while we were yet sinners.” And yes, there have been tremendous advances in the area of science, archeology, medicine, environment, etc. I read years ago that nearly 75% of the scientists who ever lived are living today. We simply don’t have all the answers and need to stop pretending we do.


  170. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Victorious–what you wrote is not quite true. Jesus did indeed tell people at times to go and sin no more.

    And please don’t assume those on the conservative side are not expressing love, mercy, grace, or compassion. Please realize the scriptures list a whole lot of sins as sending people to hell. Some see that as eternal conscious torment, some as annihilation, and some as hell here on earth, but none of them are a good state to find oneself in.

    There is a sense in which it doesn’t matter if ANY sin is biologically driven or not. Scripture already tells us the sin is in the flesh. Perhaps someday science will be able to determine “this gene makes one gay” and “that gene makes one a liar” and “that gene leads to violent crime.” The last one is already being recognized in fragile x syndrome.

    That doesn’t mean those with any biologically driven sin propensity should be given free rein, blessed in a special ceremony for sinning, or supported in the sin.

    Rather, the most compassionate thing to do is tell them the ACTIONS are sinful, that sin leads to hell, that there is a Savior, and help them find creative loving ways to walk away from the sin.


  171. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    linda wrote:

    Jesus did indeed tell people at times to go and sin no more.

    But he knew that she would. Why do you think he said it?

    linda wrote:

    Please realize the scriptures list a whole lot of sins as sending people to hell.

    So, are there are sins that send people to hell even if they are Christians?


  172. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    linda wrote:

    Jesus did indeed tell people at times to go and sin no more

    I’d appreciate scripture references. If you’re referring to the woman caught in adultery, research shows the story was not part of the earliest manuscripts. That’s the only place I’m aware of where someone is told to stop sinning. But if you know others, let me know.

    linda wrote:

    Rather, the most compassionate thing to do is tell them the ACTIONS are sinful, that sin leads to hell, that there is a Savior, and help them find creative loving ways to walk away from the sin.

    Jesus did say that what’s in the heart comes out of the mouth I believe and Paul mentions the flesh is at war with the spirit, but that’s not the point. Where are we told to monitor the behavior or actions of others? And to point them out to them? How is this different than what the Westboro Baptist church does?


  173. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Victorious:
    I think your attitude to this topic will in part be influenced by the context in which it is discussed or your upbringing. I quite agree with you about not being self-righteous and pharisaical about it, but as a rule I haven’t seen this happening. The UK by and large doesn’t have a shouting, condemning, red-faced preacher saying you’ll go to hell when you die type of fundamentalism in its religious traditions.

    Being self-righteous can happen to any of us. I remember a good friend once saying to me I was no better than a homosexual rights activist. I thought ‘What’!! Then I realised he was graphically illustrating I was getting self-righteous. Ouch. A bit of a shock to the system. I haven’t forgotten it! You can enjoy the thought of the look on my face.

    Yet this doesn’t mean because we are no better that we (the church) should avoid teaching that the wages of sin is death, and call people to repentance from it. We are simply not in a position to re-define what sin is, God doesn’t change on this. Yet in the UK there are churches supposedly evangelical that are starting to cave in on this one.

    I have always been very conscious of Paul’s admonition Do not be deceived because the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, followed by his list in 1 Cor 6, if only because it is clear many are being deceived by a false view of the consequences of sin. The list is not confined to homosexuals, but all the things listed are either a display of having no love for God, and/or a display of having no love for your neighbour. If God were to allow those who do such things into the new heavens and the new earth without repentance, they would ruin it.


  174. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    So, are there are sins that send people to hell even if they are Christians?

    Big subject, and bordering going off topic. I have been impressed by the fact the doctrine of hell is almost exclusively revealed on the lips of Jesus himself, and that he was directing his warnings about it to his disciples, rather than the heathen.

    Having been an ardent exponent of ‘once saved, always saved’, this comes as a bit of a shock. But there are numerous places in the NT which indicate the ticket to heaven after accepting Jesus mentality is in fact wrong. I’m still thinking this one through, it calls for a major change in how I understand the NT.

    One change is to take Heb 6 at face value; if you deliberately abandon the faith in apostacy, there is no way back. I’ve seen all sorts of mental gymnastics to get round this, and I’m not finished with the issue yet, but it is and should be sobering that we can’t mess around with the things of God.

    Perhaps is the church showed if feared God more, the world around might take it a bit more seriously when it tells them to fear God.


  175. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    But he knew that she would.

    Why do you say that?


  176. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    One change is to take Heb 6 at face value; if you deliberately abandon the faith in apostacy, there is no way back. I’ve seen all sorts of mental gymnastics to get round this, and I’m not finished with the issue yet, but it is and should be sobering that we can’t mess around with the things of God.

    Also look at 1 Timothy 1: 18-20. Among the baptists the Free Will Baptists believe in the possibility of apostasy. I do not see any reason to not take these statements at face value.


  177. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:

    Are we going to submit the bible, Jesus and the apostles he sent, to modern psychological insights and advances that they could never have had? Has God waited for us sophisticated and educated people of the 21st century to reveal new knowledge about this subject?

    So what do we do with the fact that the Bible says the earth cannot be moved and calls bats birds? We now know that the earth does in fact move (it rotates around the sun), and that bats are mammals. But according to this reasoning, we’re not allowed to affirm any scientific insight the Biblical authors didn’t have, and if we do we’re not “submitting to the Bible.”

    I’ve never believed that God intended the Bible to be a comprehensive guide to scientific knowledge, or that faith and science are at odds with each other like you are making them out to be. Just because the Biblical authors didn’t have certain scientific knowledge, doesn’t mean that it can’t be considered or is a secular attack on the Bible.

    Do you think science has any bearing on how we interpret the Bible? And not just on the subjects of gender and sexuality.

    Or are we going to treat people as being made in the image of God, that volition is real and notwithstanding their environment playing a part as responsible for their actions, rather than blaming them on evolutionary predestination over which they have no control?

    No one has denied that humans are made in the image of God or that they have volition. And I don’t think it automatically follows that you are obligated to act on every natural urge you have, even if it is innate somehow. You actually don’t have to reject homosexuality having an innate basis, to be side B.

    Also, intersex people don’t have any control over their conditions. I’ve noticed you consistently change the subject when people point out that there are 100% physical sex ambiguities that seriously mess up the “two completely separate and unchangeable sexes” paradigm. I’m not talking about transgenderism and whether it’s innate or psychological (which is still up for debate). I’m talking about intersexuality, which is an unfixable state, not a chosen behavior. Be careful in talking about abominations, that you don’t make it sin for someone to have a congenital condition they didn’t ask for. You can’t repent of having messed up chromosomes or a mixed-up reproductive system.


  178. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    I agree we need to take sin seriously, what I think we all miss is sin is usually a symptom (well, habitual sin is). If we keep finding ourselves in some sort of sin often the root is an “idol” or “god” or “desire” that is not about the Kingdom, but about self. The cross is all about dying to self daily.

    If we take the earliest church (before Rome got it’s hands all over it), we find a group of believers who felt it was more holy not to marry – could serve God freely this way. It wasn’t about better that others, it was about living apart from the world. Leaders had to be celibate to show a complete devotion to God. In their culture, marriage wasn’t about love, but procreation. So, if one was married, the man was expected to remain faithful – something other Roman men didn’t do. Either way, their sex lives were supposed to be under God’s control and romance was not considered something to achieve or strive for in this life.

    Fast forward to today’s world. Since the Protestant revolution overthrew Catholicism and its two largest early leaders were former priests, they rebelled against the Catholic’s strict laws on marriage for priests and threw out celibacy – I am not against that notion entirely, but they threw the baby out with the bathwater (it just became apparent slowly). With celibacy gone from the Protestant church, marriage became something God has never taught the NEW TESTAMENT believers to follow. It is NOT a sign of godliness to be married, nor is it really a sign of morality. That began to get intertwined in Protestant teachings. Without celibacy, there was no place for women in ministry, so they got relegated to a spiritual second class (not saying they aren’t in Catholicism to some degree, but there are women doctors of the church in Catholicism, they just all happen to be celibate women).

    Over time, the church began to make more out of marriage than Jesus ever taught. Marriage is a temporal thing (not continued in heaven), marriage is a distraction from God (according to Paul). Now, marriage has become a sign of being a good believer – all this nonsense about male and female roles is a lot less necessary when people are celibate. [I have a friend who works for a large Christian Charity in Africa, she was there when the two workers were sent back to the US with Ebola, she does a lot of work in other areas of Africa. She has this freedom because she has no kids. She is a leader in an org. that cannot give her the top leadership role because only men can lead. What they don’t get is, you want a leader in Africa that can live there, speak the language, work with locals and foreigners and has been there long enough to know what works and what doesn’t. Male or Female is irrelevant.]

    My point is, our society has made marriage into a place of “finding happiness” or belonging or contentment. That is actually sinful. The place of our contentment should always be with Christ. My husband and I are conscious that our life is about more than our little bundle of happiness. We adopted a child with special needs a few years ago because there was a need for disabled kids to have a forever home and we could make the extra room in our family. I heard many different comments about adoption after we adopted. One person said they wouldn’t adopt because it might put strain on their marriage. I thought, if your life isn’t being tested and stretched, you are probably doing something wrong as a Christian.

    You’d think the Bible says we should all be living the Big Easy and that is the sign of a Godly life.

    When God is first, sexuality is a far second. Even marriage needs to be a second, not a goal or a ministry. In our culture, sexuality is considered essential. Telling someone to be celibate is akin to telling someone to become mentally unstable (since all our mental and well being is considered somehow connected to our sex lives). In Christian circles, this translates to seminars on health marital sex, healthy marriages, purity culture (where virginity is a prize or something). Christians have already capitulated to society’s view on sexuality instead of God’s. They just try to fit it into marriage.

    This attempt to elevate sexuality and marriage waaaay above it’s place in Christianity has lead to the reaction to homosexuality, women leaving traditional roles in marriage – by either not marrying or working. Reality is, once society accepts it, laws will bend to make it work and it will become a norm. What Christians need to do is start valuing kingdom life over marriage, traditional families, focus on families. It is a big hurting world out there, I would love my kids to go work overseas for disadvantaged people as God’s ambassadors. I would love my kids for living a life that leads to looking different from other families – adopting kids that are hard-to-place, being careful of whom they marry – not someone who just says they are a christian, or can’t see that couples can be a team (not a leader, follower) for Christ.

    There is really nothing I need my husband to do that I couldn’t do myself. He is not my leader, he is my partner in our journey toward’s Christ. I don’t want my daughter to grow up thinking she needs a man for anything. She needs Jesus for everything that is enough. If she never marries, she has everything she needs, if she marries, I want her to marry a partner who is focused on Christ, not roles or lifestyles but on how they can do God’s work every day.

    The church isn’t much help. It encourages early marriage as a solution to raging hormones. It acts like marriage is the Christian’s only goal in life and that you can turn your back on the hurting world if you fear it may damage your fragile marriage. Actually, I’d be more worried about people’s fragile faith than marriage. Turning your back on Christ is far, far worse in my estimate. In the end, most of my friends who married guys with weaker (as in non-risk taking for God) faiths aren’t that happy in them. Those of us who are like “well, let’s just do this, even if it is risky, because God is good” are much happier with our lives anyways. But don’t expect North American Evangelicalism to ever teach people that. It is just too weakened by false idols and lame goals.


  179. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:

    Yes. I have all the same concerns.


  180. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    dee wrote:
    But he knew that she would.
    Why do you say that?

    Thank you for asking this question. My pastor has an interesting take on the purpose of Jesus’ words and ministry prior to the Cross and Resurrection. The Cross and Resurrection was the ultimate goal of Jesus. Paul, for example, doesn’t mention Jesus’ miracles and instead, focuses on the Cross/Resurrection as the means of salvation.

    Prior to this event, Jesus was still functioning as a Jewish rabbi. He upheld the Law. But, he began to challenge it in little ways like gathering grain on a Sunday in order to eat.

    He challenged the righteous Pharisees by showing the difficulty of adhering to the Law. For example, He said if anyone looked at a woman with lust, that person has committed adultery in his heart. Think about it. Except for a eunuch, most men have committed that sin. So, how was that Good News? In fact, any honest man listening to this would say “I’m screwed.”

    In fact, Jesus did that a lot. He kept pointing out the sins of the Pharisees as well as the people. Whenever they would point to their good deeds and keeping of the commandments, he would raise the bar.

    He was pointing to the utter futility of keeping the Law When the Law is not kept perfectly, we are sinners. The entire saga of the Old Testament revolves around the constant sinning of the people. Jesus made it even harder by extending it down to our very private areas-private lust, hate, unrighteous anger.

    Back to “Go and sin no more.” She would sin again. She might not sleep with another man who wasn’t her husband, but sin she would. Just like the rest of us.

    Jesus pointed to the utter futility of us living a perfect and sinless life. I believe that lady would remember Him on the Cross and after the Resurrection and would learn that her sin, in the past, present and future, would be covered once and for all by Jesus. She would be free from having to live the sinless life. We all would.

    Hope that helps.


  181. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Val wrote:

    Reality is, once society accepts it, laws will bend to make it work and it will become a norm. What Christians need to do is start valuing kingdom life over marriage, traditional families, focus on families.

    This is great! I would just add to your last sentence ‘sex’. The church really is no better than society at large when it ties so much of life to sexual issues.


  182. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    I have been impressed by the fact the doctrine of hell is almost exclusively revealed on the lips of Jesus himself, and that he was directing his warnings about it to his disciples, rather than the heathen.

    I do not interpret Jesus’ ministry in that way. Jesus was speaking to his disciples as a jewish rabbi who had not gone to the Cross for our salvation.Until that happened, the disciples and everyone else were subject to the laws of the OT.

    I believe that Jesus was warning the disciples that attempts to obey the law will only guarantee our failure. Such failure would lead us away from God.

    Instead,Jesus was preparing them for something magnificent to come. Finally, there would be answer to all of our sins and that is forgiveness. And that is what is so difficult as well as unexpected and amazing about grace. It forgives everything, past, present and future-everything.

    I believe that those who love God will try to obey Him. However, their salvation is no predicated on their obedience but on Christ’s sacrifice. Some people want to make it a lot harder than that. I, for one, am grateful for it.


  183. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    My mom had a Seventh-Day Adventist tell her that when Jesus told the woman to “go and sin no more,” that meant He was actually saying we could choose to never sin again. Then again, this particular person was whacked in a number of other ways as well…


  184. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    funny, but i’ve noticed the same thing…


  185. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Or perhaps it was more like “Go in peace! You don’t *have* to sin anymore, because you are free.” At least, that’s how I tend to think about it.


  186. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    You don’t *have* to sin anymore, because you are free.”

    A couple or questions:

    1 Do you think the freedom came after the Cross?
    2. I continue to sin yet I am free. Why?


  187. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    He was actually saying we could choose to never sin again

    I wonder if you mother had any examples of anyone who hadn’t ever sinned after a particular moment?


  188. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ linda:

    I was also thinking of a particular vacation we planned not realizing a gay pride parade was scheduled the same time. No problem. Except for some vulgar “simulations” and the “raves” that they got special permission to have loud music to the wee hours that even most of the residents did not know about. People were not expecting what they saw because the area is mostly older folks and families.

    Now some on here will think I “hate” homosexuals because I wrote the above facts and experience. They could not be more wrong. I am a libertarian. I am wondering why other groups would be turned down over the noise ordinance but they were not. Because people don’t want to be accused of being hateful. That is a powerful free speech inhibitor.


  189. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    I would ask how you define sinning. Because I see it as if we are not growing in holiness then what was the point of the resurrection? What is the point of having a saved people here being the “light of the world”? Many think that is just about evangelism. I think it is much more than that. And I am sometimes amused when I think of all the millions in the US who have never heard of Jesus. (TIC) It is basically evangelism for a denomination, church plant or group!

    It is not about sinless perfection in my book. It is about justice, mercy, truth, compassion and treating others as you want to be treated.

    I think all this is very personal and we should not tell others what to believe on this issue but I do think Hebrews 10, for me, is quite chilling. Also all of 1st John. Jesus said he was sending an advocate to guide us.

    when I hear this view it makes me think that it means Driscoll and Mahaney could not “help it” because they are sinners. The question is can we change? Do we have a choice in how we treat others or what we do? Those guys just redefined sin.


  190. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Lydia:

    It seems to me that the passage in Hebrews is about a deliberate decision to quit following Jesus. And act of the will to call it quits. And this is specifically for mature believers according to the description in the passage, not jut somebody who was young in the faith or a catechumen who was saying ‘not now and maybe never’ or an inquirer or such. It does not read like some lightning bolt from heaven because of some sin. At least that was the take on it of the FWB when I was one. (FWB not apostate.) As for the blasphemy in 1 John, we are not told what it was, but perhaps blasphemy against the Holy Spirit against which the warning had already gone out. It looks like it is really difficult to become an actual apostate, but that once one does become that then the consequences are less than delightful.


  191. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia wrote:

    when I hear this view it makes me think that it means Driscoll and Mahaney could not “help it” because they are sinners. The question is can we change?

    Of course we can change. I am a living example of that. At the same time, I still need to change. Pete Briscoe (no Calvinist he) says that we are on a journey down a road. We will trip and fall along the way. He says that the sign of a Christian is that the Christian picks himself up, brushes himself off and continues on to the goal with the hope of less stumbling.

    I don’t use the Lord’s name in vain like I did when I was a new convert. I was quite an impatient person most of my life but that has changed since my daughter’s illness. One has to wait for years to see if cancer returns and that was so hard for me. That patience is now seen in other areas of my life.

    I also believe that the Spirit gives me the wish to be compassionate and caring and to reach out to others beyond my comfort zone. That has come over time.

    Conversely, the more that I change, the more that I see that needs to change in me. Let me try to explain this. There was someone in Dallas that I did not like. In fact, she was a most unlovable person. She was in my church and I was forced through circumstances to relate to her. I did my best to avoid doing so. I would cringe when I saw her coming.

    Now, others felt the same way. I could tell by their reactions to her. But, I began to see where I was only interested in hanging around people that I liked and that made me feel good about myself. Slowly I became convicted that she was my sister in Christ and that I needed to love her and stop thinking so much about my own comfort.

    (Aside:For those of you have been abused, I am not referring to a situation like that whatsoever. You should never put yourself in harm’s way-physically, emotionally or spiritually.)

    So over time, I forced myself to be kind to her. I would offer to eat lunch with her. I would sit next to her in church, etc.I learned so much about myself in that relationship. She doesn’t know it but she taught me much about myself and my selfishness.

    Since that time, I have seen other situations in which I am self centered and self preserving.(Again, I am not talking about abuse.) This was many. many years after I became a Christian and it was going on in my life through those years. And I looked back and regret how I avoided people who made me feel awkward. I am doing better in this area even now.

    The more I read the Bible, especially the Beatitudes, I see the areas in which I am not meek, poor in spirit, etc. That is why I love the confession we do at church each week. We ask God to forgive us our sins seen and unseen.

    So, do i believe people can change? Yes. The Bible says we can. Look at Paul. Pedophiles must stop. Domestic abusers must stop. Greediness needs to be dealt with.

    Such changes do not mean that I will not struggle with learning about myself and my failings until the day i die.

    And in case you think that makes me feel hopeless and morose, let me assure you that it doesn’t. I rejoice in my forgiveness and that makes me free to continue to love and care and seek to be unselfish. Or as Pete would say, pick myself up and continue towards the goal.


  192. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    OK, did Jesus heal people and even raise the dead before he was himself crucified?

    Was the paralytic man who was lowered yhrough the roof both forgiven and healed before Jesus died on the cross?

    What about all of the other people who expetienced healinh, deliverance and God’s forgiveness through Jesus before he went to the cross?

    I am not meaning to be difficult, but i think maybe thos particular pastor is overly invested in the cross as something almost “magical” in its effects. Weare us, and God is God, and there is muvh that we do not understand. You know, like the penitent yhief and where Jesus said hewould be when he died.


  193. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    What about pepple who are not xtian, but who change for the better? Who also do other things that are taken by many xtians as signs of a good, godly life?

    Right now i am reading a series of historical mysteries set during yhe reign of Richard II. one of the principal characters in one of them is Robert of Geneva, a priest who ordered all of the inhabitants of a town to be brutally slsughtered (ehich did, indeed, happen). A few years later, a group of French cardinals made him the 1st to sit on the papal throne in Avignon, beginning the fight between Rome and France as to who was actually pope and thus which European sovereign held the most power.

    Given acts like those, it’s little wonder that do many opt out of the church altogether. Fortunately, people don’t get killed for their religious differences anymore, at least, not xtians and Jews being mudered by supposed xtians.


  194. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    I have a bunch of problems with this.


  195. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    I think we must agree to disagree. In my paradigm, the Cross and Resurrection are the basis for forgiveness for all who will receive it, not just one woman at one time.

    numo wrote:

    think maybe thos particular pastor is overly invested in the cross as something almost “magical” in its effects.

    Perhaps he is but I appreciate his thinking and tend to agree with him. As always, I know that I can be wrong. But, for now, that’s my story.


  196. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    What about pepple who are not xtian, but who change for the better? Who also do other things that are taken by many xtians as signs of a good, godly life?

    I was not addressing non-Christians. I know lots of people change for the better.

    The issue before me is whether we are still sinners when we change and how we deal with our sins. I do not know how those outside the faith deal with their guilt from sins. I can only tell you how I deal with it. I give them to Jesus and he forgives me-70×7 etc.


  197. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    I have a bunch of problems with this.

    That is fine. I have bunches of problems with lots of things and that is what compels me to think through what I believe. I am a person in process. I love the challenge of this blog. Each of you make a difference in the way I think and I am thankful for all of you. Truly!


  198. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    One of them being that i do not believe that the law is bad. I am not one of those Law vs. Grace Lutherans, partly because i have known a fair number of Jewish people who are more compassionate and concerned for the well-being of others than many, many supposed xtians i have known.

    Maybe the law isn’t so bad after all. Or else Paul was making some extremely hyperbolic arguments, or possibly both. Since Paul was also a rabbi who 2as trained in Greco-RGreco-Roman lit ws well as in rhetoric (bboth Jewish and Greco-Roman), neither would surprise me. I think there is a lot of Talmudic-style questioning and willingness to hash things out in Paul’s writing that most of us (including me) tend to miss, because we don’t really know much about Judaism and thus miss the proverbial boat a lot of the time.

    Amy-Jill Levine, who teaches at Vanderbilt, has done some outstanding work on all of this. She is eady to read. You might want to check her out at your library, or on Amazon.com


  199. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    Ack! My phone is plotting against me, via autofill!!!


  200. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    I’m not discounting what you think or what he thinks, nor the events of Easter Week. But, since Jesus was both Son of God and Son of Man prior to those events, perhaps there were, as i am trying (off the top of my head, admittely) to say, things were already happening prior to the Passion and Resurrection. In fact, i do not see how it could have been otherwise. I don’t think that those heslings, etc. were exactly business as usual, nor can i bring myself to believe in the angry God presented in penal substitutionary atonement.

    Just plain substitutionary atonement is more my speed.


  201. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    Maybe the law isn’t so bad after all.

    I am about to leave for church. I have a problem with the Law and am glad for the change. I love bacon and lobster!


  202. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    dee wrote:

    She would be free from having to live the sinless life. We all would.

    I don’t know what he was saying here. The jews did not have to live a sinless life, they had the sacrifices for atonement and such. They certainly had to give it a try, but I don’t see where sinlessness was anticipated. Else why the sacrificial system at all? And we are not free to sin. We do, of course, just like they did certainly, except we look to a different sacrifice for atonement. But, you know, I see a lot of continuity between the time before the cross and the time after the cross, and that might be a good topic for discussion at some point. This issue of before and after the cross has been mentioned from time to time by various commenters relating to one subject or another. It could get interesting to discuss. Frankly I never thought much about it before noting some comments on TWW. You learn something new every day. This just might be one of them.


  203. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    OK,let me be a little more “answer a question with a question”-ish: do you think there was no forgiveness from God prior to the Passion and Resurrection? (A leading question for sure, but what the hey…)


  204. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    If thelaw is irredeemable, then my Jewish friends are in bad shape! (PPsst: most of them eat shellfish and bacon, though not at home. They go out for those things.)


  205. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    But what about knowing you did something wrong and simply asking for foregiveness? Like you, i see a whole lot of continuity, but i don’t believe the King of the Universe (one of the titles of God that is used in many Jewish prayers) was or is tied to a system of humans sacrificing animals.


  206. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    Nope, the lady never gave my mother any examples of anyone who had actually stopped sinning. Hopefully she didn’t mean herself…


  207. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    I suppose you have heard about the new element added to the periodic table. It is called Bn. (Bacon)


  208. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    May i just add that i have a very deep dislike of the way in which so many of us gentiles use Pharisee to mean hypocrite. Just because *some* Parisees were bad does not mean that they were all bad, anymore than that mischaracterization can be applied to any other group of people you or i or any of us could name. In fact, it does seem as though quite a few Pharisees endedup becoming disciples of Jesus – Paul was one of them, and i don’t think he ever left off his adherence to that understanding of the Mosauc law. But i do believe he was deeply invested in course correctiin, vis-a-vis Jesus.

    I guess N.T. Wright is one of the xtian go-to sources for that (re. Paul), though i stand by Amy-Jill Levine.


  209. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    Shemight have, though.


  210. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    let me put it another way: do you believe in common grace? As in, grace given to all human beings, regardless of what they do or don’t believe?


  211. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    Nancy–Well said.


  212. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    Ken–good mention about Peter Tatchell. How easy to become the very thing we are inveighing against!


  213. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    Yeah, but part of this is the church’s fault. If we go back to the post-war rise of evangelicalism and the baby boomer years the church was all about family. Fast forward to the 80s, Focus on the Family, fast forward to the new Millennium and it was all about the poor gays who are being denied a family.

    It isn’t an accident we are where we are. Christians pushed for laws favouring married couples – baby bonuses, income splitting, etc. Suddenly, marrieds couldn’t help but being better off than singletons and on top of that, they were hired as the “more trustworthy” employee.

    In Catholic countries, there is another group that is also powerful socially and has a voice and community respect. That is the church orders – nuns, monks, priests, etc. So the unmarried can also be considered valuable. Now, I am not saying we start opening Evangelical monasteries, but we should consider that when married couples get all the benefits, tax breaks and societal approval, while others don’t something was going to give.

    Add the charming gay man who flirts with all the girls (I work with many gay men, so I can attest to this) who asks “What about me?” I’m a nice guy.

    See the Evangelical church has been highly political, but not very fair or inclusive. Pushing family values leaves a lot of people out. Those people have found a voice.

    The reason we are so sympathetic (as a society) to homosexuals, is that society values honest sexual expression and approves of everyone seeking satisfaction. The porn industry is huge and needs to convince society sex is something you need to constantly satisfy. So society sells an image to us of everyone getting what they want and that always working out for them.

    The church, of course, doesn’t like that image, so it makes marriage into the idol the rest of society has turned sex into. Now, this doesn’t make marriage wrong, just not the most important thing for men. The early church would tell men struggling with Celibacy to trust God to handle it and they spent hours in prayer each day anyways. Perhaps we are just not capable of trusting God, so everyone (even those who shouldn’t) gets married. I have NEVER heard of a pastor telling a couple not to get married. To go get educated and work for a few years first. Why not? Stats show the lowest divorce rates in the US are in the least religious NE corner. Why? the study showed living together wasn’t the biggest indicator of future divorce, but income and post-secondary education. The higher the education, the better each couple did. Regardless of family history of divorce or co-habiting before marriage.

    Churches can’t fathom their 1950s view of marriage isn’t a universal ideal for all Christians. They can’t even handle marriage not being an ideal. But the Catholic church does have a stronger say in Europe, and perhaps that is because it has less hypocrisy when it comes to sex and positions of authority in the church? I don’t know, but the Pope doesn’t worry too much about offending people – of course he isn’t an EU citizen either.

    What happened was the world woke up, noticed mandating marriage to Christian/1950s standards wasn’t necessary and went on. Of course it can work without 1950s marriages. The church lasted through the Roman era of wives, mistresses and prostitutes by *being celibate* NOT pushing one man- one woman marriages on people. That way the net was cast wide. Anyone could heed God’s call (not that they even knew this term, but…) gay, straight or bi (which all male citizens would have been classified in those days) all had a place in the church. Like their straight brothers, they were called to celibacy and taking their energy spent on chasing their libido around and putting their energies to use for God.

    No one was denied a place of high standing in the church, but the price was steep. It weeded out those in leadership for personal glory, the price was too high. And the reward was usually death.

    Today, if a gay person is Catholic, they can find a place in that community as a celibate, but fully participating member. Many famous Catholics have said they too are gay, but they have dedicated their lives to serving Christ as a celibate priest or monk. They are denied nothing. The world can’t accuse the Catholic church of discriminating against gays. Instead, they accuse them of repressive sexual teachings, but that is easier to overcome, since a call to God is so much bigger than chasing sex.

    In Evangelicalism, we’ve dug ourselves a hole. We only allow men who are married to lead (for all intents and purposes). If you don’t fit the middle class married lifestyle the church doesn’t know what to do with you. Either they pressure you to marry (even if it is sinful to remarry in your circumstance, that will be the pressure) or reject you. A child who says they are gay often create a reaction. Even if it isn’t outright negative, it is still a reaction of “prayer request” a.k.a. gossip chain or hushed comments and sideways glances (who wants that?).

    The attempts to “convert” gays to straight show how misguided the church’s understanding of sexuality is. There is no attempt to be straight in the Bible, it is to be moral – even at personal cost. As if straight people don’t get caught in all sorts of sins! The church has treated gay people as a threat to their “family values” as if fam. values are above Christ. Isn’t our job to love our gay co-workers and have them want to come to Christ?

    I have struggled for years to know what to do when my gay colleagues take to me about religion. They and I both know the church would try to change them. Unfortunately, not to be a follower of Christ, but to be “straight” and be convicted of how wrong their orientation is, which is silly, Jesus and Paul never say you have to like women to be a Christian. Or, the church will just say “oh that is lovely you are gay, keep right on going with your lifestyle”. But I know of nowhere where Evangelicals say, hey come to our church, you won’t be judged, you will be welcomed and we will show you who Christ is, and allow that person to make their own journey towards what to do with their sexuality. Most pastors would feel the need to say something so no one gets the wrong idea about their church and it’s views on homosexuality over and above not stating that and allowing everyone to be loved and ministered to and then trusting God will guide them.

    So, with no place for gays (or most singles), the world has turned on the church as a bastion of sexual control, outdated rules for marriage and political aspirations. It is sad. None of this should be what the church is known for.


  214. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Man, they really hate the “gay.” Other “sins” don’t take nearly as much attention as the “gay” and this leads me to wonder if there are closet cases among them. Sometimes the most strenuous homophobes are the most staunch on an issue because they are trying too divert attention from themselves. Being strident takes attention away from the “sin” within themselves. We all have our beliefs regarding homosexuality. I personally don’t feel it is the best lifestyle, but that doesn’t make a homosexual a bad person, any more than anyone else. Owen Strachen is a “fundamentalist.” I don’t mean this as a perjorative, but like other fundamentalists he theorizes what isn’t actually in the Word. Some of the issues he makes such issues I don’t see in the plain spoken word. Strange to say– I may actually be more “conservative” in my hermeneutics than Strachen and ilk. And I hate the word “conservative.”


  215. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    do you think there was no forgiveness from God prior to the Passion and Resurrection?

    Of course. We know that Moses and Elijah and many others are in heaven.


  216. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    It is called Bn. (Bacon)

    I knew it!!!


  217. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    Good question and one that I struggle with. here is where I am at.

    Those who were redeemed in the years before Jesus, were covered under the covenant that God made with his chosen race of people. They were placed in Israel, at the crossroads of the great trading routes of the ancient world. They were to be witnesses to God so that all people would know of His love. However, the rest of the people of the world were not covered under that covenant unless they joined the Chosen which did not happen a whole lot. A few did-like Rahab.

    They screwed up. They worshipped God and for good measure threw in the worship of the pagan Gods which. They were sent into exile to be punished for their sins.The sacrifices did not cover them from the punishment of God.

    The cycles of sin, punishment and exile, and repentance would continue.

    God also punished individual sins wit death. God had a bear kill a bunch of kids who were making fun os Elihu’s bald head. David’s baby boy died as punishment for his adultery and the murder of Uriah.

    God told the people if they obeyed, he would send the rain. But if they did not, he would not. That was even with the sacrifices.

    Take a look throughout the OT, punishment, including death and banishment into slavery was given to those who were covered under the sacrifices.

    Once Jesus died on the Cross, God’s punishments and killings ceased to be an issue in the nascent Christian church except for the Ananias and Sapphire take down-something that I still haven’t totally wrapped my theology around.

    As if to make a statement, God allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD and the Jews, once again, experienced a diaspora.

    Anyway, that is enough to get us started on the discussion. Once again, I am writing my thoughts on the matter. Much of how I view this is a direct result of the teaching of a couple of pastors and lots and lots of reading and asking hard questions. This does not mean I am correct. You are seeing me at this stage of my constant thinking and refining of my faith. It is subject to change without notice.


  218. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    If thelaw is irredeemable, then my Jewish friends are in bad shape

    Let me tell you where I am at on that point. Remember, those who followed the faith in the early days were Jews who recognized the Messiah. So, in reality, the faith we practice today was built on the shoulders of Jewish heritage and faith.

    I do not pretend to understand how God redeems those who do not accept Jesus as Savior. Yet I know that He does. For example, I would be willing to be that 99% of us who comment here believe that God saves infants and those with mental impairments that preclude them from understanding the Gospel. Therefore, we know that God saves more than just those who acknowledge Him. I could go into more examples if you wish.

    I know that the day I die, I will stand before God and grasp the pierced hand of my Savior and say-“Only through His grace do i presume to enter the kingdom.”

    How does God treat others or, as Eagle likes to say, some farmer in 400 AD China who never heard the Gospel? I don’t know. One thing that i do know that I serve a loving, merciful and just God and I trust all of humanity in the care of the One who created them.

    I am with CS Lewis. There will be many surprised in heaven, including who is there and who is not there. I am not a universalist. I believe there must be a hell for the likes of Hitler and Pol Pot. I also believe that there must be a place for those who want nothing to do with God. I do not believe He drags people into His presence kicking and screaming. Remember, i believe in free will in this area.

    I do not view hell as an eternal torture chamber-only a place where God has withdrawn his common grace. I also believe, like in heaven, that there are various levels of punishment. I do not believe God punishes your average atheist who lived an average life in the same way He will punish Diocletian, Nero, etc. and those who murdered the early Christians.

    However, I am open to the idea of annihilations as was John Stott. He was a great theologian and that is where he ended up.


  219. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    don’t believe the King of the Universe (one of the titles of God that is used in many Jewish prayers) was or is tied to a system of humans sacrificing animals.

    But He commanded those sacrifices. Then, He allowed the sacrifice of His Son. The entire Bible indicates a tie in to blood sacrifice and redemption.


  220. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    Hopefully she didn’t mean herself…

    🙂


  221. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:

    I think that most Christians look at the Pharisees as those who went up against Jesus-especially now as we face Good Friday. Also, remember that Paul was present for the stoning of Steven. These were harsh men. Jesus called them snakes and told them they burdened the people with rules and led them to hell. Jesus was not an admirer.

    I think it helps all of us to remember that the religious authorities, the ones who should have understood who Jesus was if they knew their Scripture, persecuted Him. Yes, after the Resurrection, some Pharisees became followers.

    Luther made some horrible statements about the Jews killing Jesus. Instead, I think the ones who persecuted Jesus the most were the religious authorities who not only didn’t recognize Him but saw Him as a threat to their power base and their uneasy relationship with the Roman government.

    Jesus’ death is an example of how leaders can screw it up quite badly-even now.

    Yes, I know that in the end, almost all deserted Him and no one fully understood Him. He was alone in His death, knowing that no one got it at that point. However, had the religious leaders embrace Him, many of the people would have as well.


  222. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    let me put it another way: do you believe in common grace? As in, grace given to all human beings, regardless of what they do or don’t believe?

    Of course. The sun shined on Genghis Khan as it does on me. The rain causes the flowers and the cotton to grow (shout out to Deb’s farm.)

    He made the mountains and the oceans and the Red Rocks of New Mexico. Beauty and the perception of it is part of His grace.

    He gave us animals as companions and the birds that make me smile as the come to our feeders. (Mama bluebird is building a the most beautiful nest that I have even seen. She is truly the Martha Stewart of bluebirds!)

    The world isn’t as bad as it could be because God holds us back from totally destroying ourselves.There is some very basic understanding of right and wrong

    There are discoveries of medicines, technology, etc.which benefit us.

    He gave us chocolate, lobster and bacon. There is color and design.

    He gave us friendship. He gave me the ability to reach out in this blog and discover such wonderful people who are bringing grace to the world and grace to my life. You all have brought me much joy and also challenge me to think harder and better.

    Common grace is different than salvific grace but both are grace given from God.


  223. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Val:
    Awesome comment, Vall!


  224. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Owen (not John) is chewing the scenery a bit, I think. As usual. Nowhere does he demonstrate the connection between adoption of a mutualist relationship between men and women and the adoption of the homosexual agenda or the acceptance of homosexual behavior. I want to be clear that I am using the term “homosexual” as the most neutral term I know to use of *behavior* as distinct from *orientation.*

    It would be helpful to his case, IMO, if he described the causal mechanism between rejection of hierarchicalism and moral decline of whatever sort, including adultery and heterosexual activity outside of marriage. He cannot do that, of course, because a causal connection does not exist. However, his point is not to present a reasoned argument that can withstand scrutiny. His point is to blow enough Scary Smoke to make people accept his “reasoning” without questioning it. This is the same thing that Danvers did originally, so he is being consistent with their agenda and methodology. Danvers begins with the Scary Stuff in the “Rationale” and only then lays out the subscribers’ seven points of eisegesis and proprietary logic.

    ISTM that if the CBMW position is so clear that it would not be so urgently necessary to stop thought in order to gain acceptance for their ideas. Owen’s hysteria sure sounds desperate.

    The surest way to mess up a class on “Complementarianism” is to introduce the reality of ambiguous sex into the discussion. They do *not* have an answer for that physical reality, and I have witnessed myself the way that topic is dismissed as unimportant and irrelevant. As if people who don’t fit the mold are unworthy of consideration in their system.

    If people can be born with ambiguous sex, then why is it so difficult to imagine that people might have different orientations in a fallen world? I believe that God created male and female for the two sexes to be complementary. But it does not follow from that that people who live with SSA are somehow sinning any more than people who are born with ambiguous sexual organs. Or that homosexual behavior is more sinful than illicit heterosexual behavior.

    Unmarried people, of whatever orientation, who decide to be celibate should be celebrated, and those of us who are married should encourage them just as we encourage married people to be faithful. Our identities as Christians are not “male” or “female” or “gay” or “straight” or “slave” or “free” or “married” or “single.” Our Identity should be “In Christ” with everything else flowing from that and each of us striving to follow Christ’s example in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.

    I am truly weary of the scare-tactics and fear exploitation and othering among the CBMW crowd. They are truly preaching another gospel where salvation and sanctification flow from observing rituals and sacraments and laws which they call Gender Roles rather than from trusting in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.


  225. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    But it does not follow from that that people who live with SSA are somehow sinning any more than people who are born with ambiguous sexual organs.

    There is one issue to be careful of here. Someone may be born with “ambiguous sexual organs” that look ambiguous on external examination but DNA may show that actually this is a male or female with thus and such developmental variant of this or that anatomic structure. That is to say that some congenital defect in some sexual organ does not necessarily indicate that the genetic sex of the individual is not knowable. But this is not always the case of course. What I am getting at is that there is more evidence for what is going on with people with ambiguous sexual organs, and there is evidence that once some medical workup is done then the ambiguity is resolved and appropriate steps can be taken in some cases. I could use anatomically correct descriptive terms here, but that is not necessary considering the topic. That sort of evidence is lacking in the matter of sexual orientation.

    There can be some similarities in the arguments used in both cases, but the issues are not identical as far as we know at this time.


  226. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    Welcome back. Hope you are recovered. We missed you.


  227. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    Thanks for that clarification. The point I was incoherently trying to make is that there are undeniable physical/genetic issues which defy neat categories sometimes. The CBMW folks do *not* want to talk about physical issues because they have no answer for those within their neat system.

    True confession time. I was pregnant with my first child when in college, so I decided the very best thing to do was to to to the library at the medical school and see what to expect. This is a Very Bad Idea for a first-time mom who has no medical training whatsoever. However, it made me very aware of genetic and developmental issues, including those involving sex, and I have *not* forgotten that. The faces of the children were blacked out in the textbooks, but those are/were real human beings who bear the image of God as well as all the “perfectly normal” children do.

    Thanks for the welcome back and for the prayers from all. Very much appreciated. These last few threads have been very thought-provoking, and I have tried to follow along. Obviously, there are residual cognitive issues. 😉


  228. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:
    Happy to see you back, Gram3! Missed you…


  229. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Victorious:
    Thanks, Victorious. That means a lot!


  230. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    Glad you’re feeling better and back commenting.


  231. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:

    The surest way to mess up a class on “Complementarianism” is to introduce the reality of ambiguous sex into the discussion. They do *not* have an answer for that physical reality, and I have witnessed myself the way that topic is dismissed as unimportant and irrelevant. As if people who don’t fit the mold are unworthy of consideration in their system.

    Well, when sex is the first checkpoint for what you can and cannot do (i.e., all the rules are pink and blue), how can you give any direction to an intersex person? They’re completely unintelligible to your classification scheme. A couple of examples (I = intersex person, C = complementarian):

    C: Ordination is great! We need more pastors!
    I: I might be interested in that.
    C: Great! But only men are allowed.
    I: Oh. Well, the doctors weren’t able to medically determine my sex. So can I still get ordained?

    C: The Bible states clearly that crossdressing is an abomination!
    I: Oh. Well, the doctors weren’t able to medically determine my sex, but I still want to please God and wear the right clothes. So what should I wear?

    How can the comp answer either of these questions?

    Unmarried people, of whatever orientation, who decide to be celibate should be celebrated

    This would never happen in the average evangelical Protestant Bible church if the person was straight. Only if they were gay.


  232. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    I’m not sure what to make of Nancy’s recent with respect to people on the I spectrum, because from what I’ve gathered, it’s often more complicated than just looking to the chromosomes for the “right” answer. And there’s definitely evidence to show that something’s going on with people on the LGB spectrum (and the T/cis spectrum), but it’s not in vogue to admit that in the part of Christendom that I still inhabit.

    I think evangelical Protestant churches should celebrate celibacy (say that quickly five times), given that there are probably people in their congregations who are called to it. From what I’m seeing, though, instead of celebration, it’s more like consolation prize, to be lived as an “unfunded mandate” [1] (i.e. without any real support from the congregation) until God changes your orientation to make you straight [2]. I hope – and indeed suspect – that it’s not like this everywhere, but I’m too young to have had a wide experience of churches, and have lived in the same general part of the US my whole life.

    [1] Thanks to Lindsey and Sarah of A Queer Calling for that wonderfully descriptive term.
    [2] We’ve even seen this brought up a time or two in the discussions on the last post and this one. All it does is reveal that the [straight] people making the claim are clueless – or sometimes willfully ignorant – of the research that shows that this practically never happens (other than a few people experiencing a “slight shift along a continuum,” if I remember the verbiage correctly).


  233. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Yes, i know, but remember, those sacrifices were made at a specific place, and most people went there rarely – some, I’m sure, never.

    Did God not acknowledge the prayers for forgiveness offered by those who couldn’t havd the appropriate sacrifice made at the time of repentance? What about those who simply were too poor to purchase an animal for sacrifice?

    Just because God commanded a specific thing (which had become highly complex and evolved by the time of ghe 2nd temple) does not, imo, constrain him from working solely via that system. God is transcendent, but we are not. To us, the specific place sith specific people makes morse sense than trying to simply imagine that transcendent God. There was a true evolution and refining of Jewish monotheism, and it can be seen – partly, at least – happening in the tdxts of the OT, which cover a pretty good chunk of time, all told.


  234. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Luther was a mess, as I’ve said here many times with regard to his extreme anti-semitism.

    What i was trying to address, in part, is that most of us know next to nothing about Jewish beliefs at the time of Christ apart from what’s said in the NT texts themselves. That leaves us totally devoid of the knowledge and context that their writers and original audience had. Which is part of whst leads to false assumptions, like Pharisee = bad, hypocritical person *all* of the time, no exceptions. Well, not so much, though it takes time and work to puzzle that out, and I’m admittedly not vety far along… but the Jewish friends i grew up with, very much including those who are observant, have beliefs that come down from that time, and which can be partly traced back to the Pharisees. Are these people a bunch of harsh, legalistic hypocrites, then? NO.

    So, it’s more com9licated than it appears at 1st glance. I think the destruction of the 2nd temple and subsequent diaspora is one of the things that caused early gentil xtians to lose the threads of connection to Judaism. Until thst point, it was a Jewish sect, with believers going to the temple to pray (would include those who only had access to the Court of the Gentiles – which is a clear indication that there wrre already many gentiles who worshipped the One God). So much changed once the temple was gone.


  235. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Common grace means, imo, that people have a consvience and can choose to live and act in a manner that is truly goid – often better than many who claim the name of Christ.

    At leadt, that’s how i sed it.


  236. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Gram3:
    Yes. All the medical conditions that come under the medical/biological heading of “intersex.” Which came up much earkier in tjis thread, with links to excellent sources of info., posted by Hester, iirc.


  237. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Thanks, Josh. I appreciate your help in keeping the discusdion and communication open, as well as factually acvurate. It is a vety complex isdue, given the spectrum of conditions that come under the intersex heading.


  238. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Of course, i am of the opinion that slight shifts along the spectrum is a more pertinent description when speaking of a great many people who identify ad entirely straight, but that’s another topic entirely!

    As for thst mandate, to me it looks like “No soup for you!” in other words, do it or else, no love for you unless you “change.” What a hortible thing to tell anyone.


  239. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    What about those who simply were too poor to purchase an animal for sacrifice?

    There were provisions made for the poor who could not afford to purchase a sacrifice. I cannot disregard or minimize the sacrificial system in the Old Testament. Bloody sacrifice was demanded from Abraham and continued thereafter.

    Once the Temple was destroyed in 70AD, there could no longer be blood sacrifice. The destruction of the Temple ushered in a new understanding that God no longer dwelt in the Holy of Holies but dwells in his people.

    Of course the Christian faith was built on the base of the Jewish faith. However, it is different in many ways. The final sacrifice has been made. The Temple is no longer needed. The long awaited Messiah has come and has been rejected by many of his own people as was prophesied.

    I do not believe that the Christians needed the unconverted Jews in order to understand their new faith. They had plenty of devout Jews who had converted including the disciples and Paul. The Christian faith remained strong and grew rapidly-growing from a small, ill regarded (by both unconverted Jews and Romans) to the predominate faith of the land in a few hundred years. The Jews were never able to see such growth even with their Court of Gentiles.


  240. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    The “No soup for you!” attitude of the church space I currently inhabit is why I find communities like this one and GCN to be so life-giving. Then there are the topical area-specific blogs like AQC (which I just mentioned above) and Spiritual Friendship, though the comment threads in the latter can be toxic for a non-straight person who doesn’t necessarily hate their orientation and think that their attractions must be “killed” every time they surface (not everyone there believes that, but those who do are quite vocal).

    So communities and challenging albeit friendly discussions like this are much needed. After being negative in my last post, I felt the need to refocus a bit and thank our hosts and you all for making this space what it is. (Ok, now I’m done being mushy, LOL…)


  241. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    I think evangelical Protestant churches should celebrate celibacy (say that quickly five times), given that there are probably people in their congregations who are called to it. From what I’m seeing, though, instead of celebration, it’s more like consolation prize, to be lived as an “unfunded mandate” [1] (i.e. without any real support from the congregation) until God changes your orientation to make you straight [2]. I hope – and indeed suspect – that it’s not like this everywhere, but I’m too young to have had a wide experience of churches, and have lived in the same general part of the US my whole life.

    That is a pity that celibacy cannot or will not be celebrated when the Lord himself was celibate along with Paul and who knows who else. I do believe that there are residual cultural beliefs that make same-sex orientation (distinguished from same-sex behavior) a sin in itself. ISTM that is a hard case to make. At least it is a hard case to make exclusively regarding sexual orientation.

    I do not believe that same-sex orientation is a new thing or is even necessarily increasing, but I certainly believe we are talking more about it just like we talk openly about cancer and adoption and other things that used to be hush-hush. I am not happy about the sexualization of everything and the politicization of sexuality because we as humans are so much more than that.

    You are probably not old enough to remember George Rekers (hope I’m spelling his name correctly.) There is more than one lesson there.

    I have lost track of what has been discussed on what thread, so I apologize if I have been repetitive.


  242. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    You are probably not old enough to remember George Rekers (hope I’m spelling his name correctly.) There is more than one lesson there.

    I didn’t stumble upon that story until it was approaching its end, but George Rekers is one of a hundred reasons why I tune people out the moment they start talking about “change.” There’s a “he doth protest too much, methinks” vibe to these cases, and after a while, well, sure enough…


  243. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    I think you are not quite seeing my point. Rabbinical Judaism comes from the Pharisees. They were a sect, not a bunch of hard-*sses. Yes, some were the latter, but not all.

    i fear that there is a lot of anti-Judaism baked into the current version of xtianity. It began when gentile converts started to greatly outnumber Jews who believed in Jesus, and after Constantine, it became an unwritten artivle of the faith.

    Ultimately, i am trying to talk Bible + actual history and i think we are not quite on the same page on this. If all Pharisees are awful and mean and hard, then it follows that Judaism and Jewish people would… well, fill in the blank.

    Ever notice how “the Jews” is used in the Gospel of John? It applies only to those who oppose Jesus, not to Jesus himself, or his disciples, or even his mother. It’s as if they are all gentiles by default.

    Sometimes the prejudices in our religion make me want to ditch it altogether.


  244. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    So if Judaism didn’t see growth, that means it wasn’t the True Faith.

    This is also Passover, and I’m feeling extremely torn. Xtianity evolved from Judaism; the savior in xtianity is Jewish. Without Judaism, we would not exist, yet we avt like we owe Judaism nothing, and that it isn’t really important.

    I strongly disagred.


  245. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    I think it’s interesting to note that synagogues, which already existed during the time of Christ, came into being as a result of the Pharisees and their belief that people could indeed worship outside the temple.

    Since the events of 70 A.D., there are synagogues only. Descendents of the priests (the kohainim) can often be identified by surname (Cohen, Kan, Kahane, Kohn and similar), but the priestly caste (the Saducees) have no longer had a function or vocation separate ftom that of other Jews.

    In a sense, rabbinical Judaism is like the NT-era church. It was the xtians who insisted on priests, bishops, the whole hierarchical structure that ceased to exist in Judaism. How ironic, because even evangelicals still struggle with their own form of hierarchy. Different branches of Judaism have different understandings of many things today, but still, only a small number of ultra-Orthodox elevate rabbis to the same kind of position that srlf-appointed “men of God” regularly take in Protestant churches.

    There’s a lesson in that, imo.


  246. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    Kahn, not Kan.


  247. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    It is interesting, but too focused on the Calvinist vs. Arminian thing. Lots of us – Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox – are neither and have differing views on it.


  248. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    You know, with xtianity being based in the tenets of Judaic monotheism, it is troubling to me that we serms so often to turn from understanding whst thst was. To my mind, it enriches our faith, rather than being unnecessary.

    I am also not at all certain that we actulayy understand the distinctions made regarding law and grace – something that the majority of the original audience of the NT canon would have understood. To me, it seems wise to get the background straight, lest in our lack of awareness, we misread and misinterpret, which has, unfortunately, been a massive problem throughout church history.

    I said a lot of this last year regarding that whole “God divorced Israel” as literal statement of fact dust-up, but i think it bears repeating.


  249. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Josh, for those of us who are straight and never have married, it’s not regarded as some kind of consolation prize. More like failure to acheive the pinnacle of adult life and responsibility snd normalcy.

    Not in all churches, but i many.


  250. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh & numo:

    Josh, for those of us who are straight and never have married, it’s not regarded as some kind of consolation prize. More like failure to acheive the pinnacle of adult life and responsibility snd normalcy.

    And patriocentrists will tell you it’s “normative” to marry, which basically means it’s a command unless you have the “gift of singleness” (which they never tell you how to identify). But even there they don’t seem to recognize said “gift” as an actual thing in real life, because they tell you to train your children for marriage, i.e. the “gift of singleness” only happens in other people’s families.


  251. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo

    @ gram

    When we speak of ‘intersex” or ‘ambiguous sexual organs” we are talking about congenital defects. Why would this be comparable to variants in sexual orientation? Listen carefully to that word ‘defect’ and explain to me why you all seem to see the two groups as comparable.


  252. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Why would we ‘celebrate’ celibacy while criticizing those who ‘celebrate’ marriage? Jesus seemed to affirm both the married and the celibate state. So did Paul. Why would we not be neutral in this case and try for what seems to be the biblical approach, that one is right for some people and the other is right for other people and this rightness may vary with the circumstances.


  253. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    Josh, for those of us who are straight and never have married, it’s not regarded as some kind of consolation prize.

    Ah. And for those of us who are straight and went from single to married to divorced or widowed the whole issue seems different yet. Let me agree with much of what has been said and add a little.

    As far as I can tell it is humans and not God who want to make any of it another hill on which to die. And as far as I can tell from scripture the excessive emphasis on either marriage or consecrated virginity has been taken beyond the emphasis placed on either in scripture.

    In my opinion the scriptural basis, which seems very flexible and reasonable, is the best way to think about these matters. And all of us have got to quit making ourselves the arbiter of the application of this in other people’s lives. Nothing that I can see in scripture gives anybody else the authority to decide these matters (marriage or celibacy) for other people.

    Out of my collection of quotes, and I don’t know who said it: as to marriage or celibacy let a man choose whichever he wants, he is sure to regret it.


  254. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    I’m uncomfortable with the language of “defect” in this context because of the history it has in being used with prejudice against people like me. The quote Andrew Solomon shares at the beginning this TED Talk shows what I mean:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EVEmZ2c_es

    As to “celebrating” marriage or celibacy, I don’t see it as a zero-sum game where one should be celebrated at the expense of the other. But on the other hand, I also confess that “celebrate” is a sub-optimal word to describe what I was thinking. It would be more apt to ask that “support” for celibacy should become more widespread throughout the church. To me, it’s not a matter of cheerleading (“Go celibacy!”), but a matter of making it a matter of general consciousness in the community to look out for the needs of single people in a similar fashion to how churches already look out for the needs of married people (and not at the expense of the latter).


  255. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    I’m distinguishing between the orientation and physical conditions but probably not communicating very well. I don’t see a way to make a physical condition a sin, though that seems to me to be an implication of “only two distinct genders, and we will ignore the ones who don’t fit our criteria exactly” that I’ve seen in the CBMW church.

    I have no idea how orientation of whatever kind arises, but I suspect it is a combination of a lot of different things. I cannot think of a way to make mere orientation a sin other than a cultural “sin.” Homosexual behavior and non-marital heterosexual behavior are sins, IMO. Along with adultery, pornography use, etc. that we do not see the political outrage about that we see on both sides regarding homosexuality.


  256. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    Why would we ‘celebrate’ celibacy while criticizing those who ‘celebrate’ marriage?

    Because a person who experiences sexual attraction of any sort outside of marriage and decides to be celibate deserves to be praised and affirmed. In addition, singleness and celibacy is not a sin nor a state that is “less than” those who are married. This particular point really irritates me when I see it, and I see it a lot in the church.

    Those who decide to marry should be praised as well when they live out their marriage in imitation of Christ and remain faithful to one another through life.

    Paul is clear that both marriage and singleness have challenges and opportunities that are different. I think we should celebrate and encourage one another regardless of marital status, not making one better or more praiseworthy than the other.


  257. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    I agree regarding the word “defect.”


  258. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    But on the other hand, I also confess that “celebrate” is a sub-optimal word to describe what I was thinking. It would be more apt to ask that “support” for celibacy should become more widespread throughout the church.

    Since I’m the one who introduced “celebrate” into the discussion, let me say that I have in mind the idea that a single person who remains celibate is being faithful under challenging circumstances, and that is worthy of celebration just as people who have remained faithful in marriage are celebrated. That involves support, but I think it also involves affirmative encouragement, just like we give to married couples. Instead of that, what I’ve seen is exploitation or indifference to single heterosexuals and rejection of homosexuals, celibate or not.


  259. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    I’m uncomfortable with the language of “defect” in this context because of the history it has in being used with prejudice against people like me

    So why would you or anybody want to consider sexual orientation as comparable? I would think that you would not want that correlation to be made. I thought the whole idea was to consider minority sexual orientation as a normal variant. I am confused here.


  260. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    I’m distinguishing between the orientation and physical conditions but probably not communicating very well.

    Yeah, well, me too.


  261. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    … as comparable to intersex conditions? I think the I (and T) remain – and should remain – a part of the LGBTQ[PIA] in part because they experience discrimination and are treated as less than fully human for an unchosen aspect of their physical selves (I consider my brain’s wiring to respond to the “wrong” gender to be in one respect a part of my physical self, so there is that element of commonality).

    An intersex person may wish to have surgery to bring their physical appearance in line with how their brain perceives their gender, akin to what some trans* people wish to do. Or, they may see themselves in line with their natural physical appearance, and may wish to be respected as a non-binary individual. Either way, they will likely be in a struggle for human rights, many of which overlap with what LGB and T people have been fighting to gain for some time now. I feel that it’s only right for the [relatively speaking] larger and more visible community to include the smaller and less visible one.


  262. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:

    Terminology question about the [PIA] suffix on the end of LGBTQ. I know I = intersex, and I’m pretty sure A = asexual (correct me if I’m wrong), but what does P stand for?


  263. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    threadjack

    Dee (and all), apologies for my rants. i am wrestling with a lot of questions right now, and did not mean to be obnoxious in my replies from early this a.a.

    thanks for your patience with me!

    /threadjack


  264. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    request seconded.


  265. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Hester:
    i think it might be ‘pansexual,’ but i’m not certain.


  266. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    @ Hester:
    i think it might be ‘pansexual,’ but i’m not certain.

    What would pansexual mean.


  267. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Bridget:
    As I understand it, it’s a term used by people who wish to emphasize that they experience attractions to people without regard to gender. It’s like bi-, but with the inclusion of potential for attraction to people who don’t identify with either a masculine or feminine gender expression.


  268. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    As soon as I typed that, the term “two spirit” (used by some Native Americans, of themselves) flashed into my head.


  269. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    That was intended as a reply to Bridget; not sure what went wrong.


  270. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    What would pansexual mean.

    Try my pan-fried salmon with cheese and lemon sauce; then you’ll know.


  271. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    The George Rekers story was deeply embarrassing. Whenever I read some Christian pontificating about this subject, and they quote Rekers, obviously unaware of the situation, it causes me to shake my head and realize that Christians have really screwed up in how they approached this subject.


  272. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    numo wrote:

    This is also Passover, and I’m feeling extremely torn. Xtianity evolved from Judaism; the savior in xtianity is Jewish. Without Judaism, we would not exist, yet we avt like we owe Judaism nothing, and that it isn’t really important.

    You would enjoy my small group which has been together for about 13 years. We have celebrated the Passover meal on a number of occasions. We have one man in our group that shows us the stones in the ephod worn by the priests. I have attended, on at least 10 occasions, Messianic congregations. There is much more. None of us in that group disregard the heritage of the Christian faith.

    I have even supported the Temple Institute. https://www.templeinstitute.org I think many of us get it.


  273. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    No apologies necessary.


  274. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Can you share the recipe? It sounds awesome.


  275. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Have you ever been to an wctual, unadulterated Jewish Seder? I think you would love it.

    I went annually from about 9-10 to twenty-something (late 20s), at our next-door neighbors’ house, and wish i had somewhere to go now. I would loveto sed more Jewish people actually conducting Seders for xtians, whivh is, indeed, happening in some place. But i feel extremely uncomfortable re. “church Seders,” and always have. Istm that most are pretty much changed to the point that they aren’t actual Passover Seders anymore, and that is what Jesus and the apostles actually had (thhough the ceremonial portion would have been quite different, in some respects, and the meal would likely have been less elaborate).


  276. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    Thanks, Dee. I have been feeling ranty for days now, though I’m not sure why. It just comes over me evety so often. 😉


  277. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:
    I bet your small group is delightful!


  278. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ dee:

    I doubt that the True Believers (TM) will ever be convinced, no matter how many facts are sent their way. But with that said, there’s a whole laundry list of people who’ve either had a scandal or just straight up renounced the whole business (and yes, it is – or was, at any rate – quite an enterprise). This list scratches the surface:

    https://www.truthwinsout.org/scandals-defections/

    That list doesn’t include George Rekers, nor does it include Alan Chambers, who was probably one of the most influential people in those circles, whose influence was felt in my own little church in the rural midwest. I vaguely remember the pastor mentioning something about Chambers’ statement (linked below), with what I interpreted to be disbelief. I’ve no idea if he still clings to wishful thinking contrary to the facts… it’s hard to ask without raising suspicions, if you know what I mean. 😉

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2012/01/09/alan-chambers-99-9-have-not-experienced-a-change-in-their-orientation/


  279. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hester wrote:

    Do you think science has any bearing on how we interpret the Bible?

    Morning Hester, and I hope you had a good Easter! Regarding your post:

    i) I think it is anachronistic to read modern scientific thinking or classifications back into the bible. The OT in particular speaks to its audience from the viewpoint of the earth-bound observer and using readily understandable concepts from everyday life. Even today we talk of sunrise and sunset as though the sun revolves round the earth. So I’m not into science versus the bible until and unless science is used to explain things without God. Apart from that, science is thinking God’s thoughts after him.

    ii) Science to my mind cannot tell us much if anything about what is moral; it cannot define good and evil. That is beyond its pay-grade.

    iii) The secular community very much denies we are made in the image of God and therefore have true volition or freewill in any meaningful sense. The latter is the result of the former, and is often denied. You will see this in discussions about homosexuality, where the debate is engaged between those who say it is a lifestyle choice, and those who say it is the result of unguided evolution, a kind of biological predestination for which the individual is not responsible and for which he cannot be subject to moral criticism. If you grant the latter, then evolution is also the reason why some people are religious, it is not something they ‘choose’ to believe in, making it hard to criticise them for it!

    iv) I haven’t changed the subject when intersex people are brought up, I have ignored it for the reason it is not imo relevant to those who choose to identify as being a different gender to how they were born. It is a genuine medical condition, and therefore not a moral issue. If gender dysphoria actually exists, then this too is a mental illness – though this is not usually how the issue is cast by the so-called transgender community! As you say medical conditions are not something you can repent of. Where, however, people’s actions are the result of moral choices, then they are accountable for those choices.

    Dealing with these issues with genuine compassion is never going to be easy. Christians can come across of self-righteous, especially if they have not been tempted by these particular sins. Yet they need to avoid being intimidated by this into acquiescing with something God opposes (to put it mildly). On the other hand, preaching a God of unconditional love who ‘accepts’ everyone as they are is also false, though there is clear pressure for Christians to give way on this in a gender-confused culture.


  280. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    Trans* people “chose” to experience a disconnect between their birth sex and self-perceived gender just as much as I “chose” to feel attraction to members of my own sex (i.e. they didn’t). You’re welcome to believe otherwise (as you’ve obviously been doing), but if you take the attitude you’re showing here and try to apply it with “compassion” to trans* people and people like me, we’ll see right through it. We’re used to it, which is usually why when we try to find a congregation that will treat us like human beings, we look for one that will respect us when we tell our stories instead of telling us that we don’t really feel what we clearly feel.


  281. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    when we try to find a congregation that will treat us like human beings, we look for one that will respect us when we tell our stories instead of telling us that we don’t really feel what we clearly feel.

    Homosexual acts and transgenderism lived out are both examples of unrighteousness and moral wickedness at work. You cannot bring them into the kingdom of God. It is not that such things are unforgivable, nor do they deserve bullying or mistreatment, but they do need to be forgiven.

    I don’t think feelings and stories have anything to do with this, which gives away that I am getting too old to relate to post-modern thinking. It puts us as sinful human beings in the centre, rather than God and his commands.

    A company I know recently introduced gender-neutral toilets (rest rooms), which was celebrated as a huge step forward in civilisation and tolerance. In the comments thread under the announcement, someone wrote they hoped this would not be used for gender-politics. The result of that innocuous remark was that a transgender person was “offended” and went behind the colleague’s back to his boss to report this “offensive” behaviour. He did get some pushback for this underhanded action even from those sympathetic to transgenderism, but it showed me at any rate just how much ‘tolerance’ there is of opposing views on this subject. In fact it wasn’t even opposition, it was failure to affirm.

    This is not a subject I have devoted much time to, it has rarely if ever actually cropped up in real life; but Christians are being forced to consider it whether they like it or not. God, who doesn’t change, is not going to accommodate to post-modern thinking or any other thinking on this, nor is he likely to be caught out by advances in science, so-called!

    This whole area is one where we need to ‘tell the truth in love’, the NT has a wonderful balance between the two. There is a balance between accepting people as they are and not necessarily accepting what they do, and this applies equally to everyone.


  282. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Our calling now is to winsomely and convictionally promote complementarianism, to show that it brings joy…

    The same Joy as North Korean population units Dancing with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader — OR ELSE?

    The same Joy you found in Jonestown?


  283. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    Val wrote:

    Reality is, once society accepts it, laws will bend to make it work and it will become a norm. What Christians need to do is start valuing kingdom life over marriage, traditional families, focus on families.

    This is great! I would just add to your last sentence ‘sex’. The church really is no better than society at large when it ties so much of life to sexual issues.

    Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (and usually opposite) direction.


  284. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Victorious wrote:

    Why don’t we pick on these seven abominations from time to time? Why is homosexuality the only one we protest and ignore the others?

    Because Homosexuality(TM) is always the OTHER Guy’s SIN.

    The others? Well, you never know when you might need to do them for your personal (and Gospelly) advantage…


  285. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    Even Peter Tatchell, a homosexual activist, has warned his fellow activists that they are in danger of mirroring the bigotted attitudes they claim Christians and those of other religions had or have towards gays. One wonders whether they will listen.

    When someone who’s been stomped on finds themselves on top of the heap wearing the boots, they WILL throw their new-found weight around. HARD.
    “STOMP HARDER!! IT’S PAYBACK TIME!!!!”


  286. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Victorious wrote:

    Why is homosexuality the only one we protest and ignore the others? Proverbs alone lists 17 abominations. Why do we think one is more evil than the others?

    Because it has become political and subsequently popular. And because there is an element of coercion in the politics of it- as to who is going to coerce whom to do what.


  287. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Josh wrote:

    Alan Chambers, who was probably one of the most influential people in those circles, whose influence was felt in my own little church in the rural midwest.

    Influential though he’s been, he is very much the 2nd generation of ex-gay bloc thinking. He is far too young for that. Others started Exodus and related “ministries,” and ran them for a long time before Chambers showed up.


  288. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    wow. Ken, I have expected better of you, but your opening sentences show me that you seem not to have been listening to what Josh and other LGBTQ xtians (and not a few straight xtians!) have been attempting to tell you.

    I think you truly do not understand trans people, nor what transgenderism is all about. It is definitely *not* a “choice,” though it is true that people generally *do* choose to begin living as the gender they are, some later in life, some very early. Are you aware of the fact that trans people go through an outsize amount of assault (up to and including murder) that is all out of proportion to their small numbers? Perhaps you might read up a bit before you come back with more hellfire and damnation talk. Please.


  289. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Ken:
    I have a reply to you that’s on the back burner. Hope you will check back for it.


  290. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    I say “influential” in the sense that when he “came out” about 99.9% having not changed, I heard about it (and they were not happy).


  291. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    This is not a subject I have devoted much time to

    This is kind of obvious, Ken.

    it has rarely if ever actually cropped up in real life; but Christians are being forced to consider it whether they like it or not.

    One of the primary reasons it is “cropping up” now is that trans people are asking for equal treatment and an end to harassment, which is very often violent (you can check into the crime stats if you like; they are incredibly high for such a small group of people who openly identify as trans).

    As for xtians being “forced” to deal with this issue, no, not any more than xtians over here were being “forced” to have to deal with the reality of black folks being equal to white folks, obtaining full voting rights, and so on – and yet, the struggle continues, and many white “xtians” are still in the 19th c. in their thinking.

    This issue has about *zero* to do with so-called “postmodern thinking” and everything to do with compassion and acknowledgement that those who are not like you and me deserve to be treated with every bit as much respect as you (as a straight man) and I (as a straight woman) get. (Though whether women get as much respect as men is a whole different topic! And one I won’t go into here.)


  292. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Oh, I see; I misread. My bad! And yes, he was being honest, finally. Which has been a good thing, though those people who think it isn’t are living in a dream world, imo.


  293. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    Do you know if he and his wife are still together?


  294. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Nancy wrote:

    Victorious wrote:
    Why is homosexuality the only one we protest and ignore the others? Proverbs alone lists 17 abominations. Why do we think one is more evil than the others?
    Because it has become political and subsequently popular. And because there is an element of coercion in the politics of it- as to who is going to coerce whom to do what.

    Yes, I agree that the issues have become politicized all around so much that it seems near impossible to talk about the issues and the implications without someone going postal for one reason or another. Why can’t we talk reasonably about the complicated issues and implications at a level of mutual love and respect without political correctness or religious correctness being forced?


  295. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ numo:
    Amen!

    numo wrote:

    Do you know if he and his wife are still together?

    The last I heard, they still are. Unlike Michael Bussee and Gary … what’s his last name? who – I think – were in that movement well before Alan Chambers was (although my timeline is probably off, I think that aligns with what you said earlier today).


  296. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Gram3 wrote:

    Why can’t we talk reasonably about the complicated issues and implications at a level of mutual love and respect without political correctness or religious correctness being forced?

    I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head but there are probably lots more.

    For one thing both sides of this issue have some really bad arguments that they swear by, and they seem to think that mere repetition (or volume) will somehow win the day argumentatively. Who can deal with that?

    For another thing, times are really torn up right now, and when people are put under too much stress they resort to certain things like tribe and religion (I am summarizing something one of my kids ran into in some required continuing ed ) and right now people are under too much stress what with constant change of everything and the economy and the world situation and the fact that some things in our culture that we thought could be depended on, in fact cannot be. So they resort to things like tribe and religion.

    Also it is entirely possible that a significant number of people already had strongly held opinions but thought it better to say nothing (don’t ask/ don’t tell) but now they are being pushing into a corner and more or less being required to take sides. So they say what they already thought all along, except now they are angry about being put into that position of having to enter the fracas.

    And part of it is political, not about correctness but rather about how far is the government allowed to go in telling people what to think and what to do and what to say. This is the ‘freedom’ issue which is being activated by the current happenings. This ‘freedom’ issue keeps coming to the fore in the US about first one thing and another, including but not limited to sexual and/or moral issues. Think second amendment issues, and whether it is a divinely given right to make and sell white lightning. Add to that some perceived pressure to have a specific opinion about somebody else’s sexuality. Really? And what do you mean they are trying to tell me what to eat and what to not eat (the school lunch issue.) That sort of thing. There is a whole lot of trying to control people’s behavior and thinking, and that engenders conflict.


  297. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ken wrote:

    If gender dysphoria actually exists, then this too is a mental illness

    That is quite some assertion Ken, how do you know this? As far as I’m aware many causes may eventually be ‘found’ for gender dysphoria, including various hormonal issues during early foetal development which means that the balance of male/female hormones on various stages of development of mind may be as disordered as those which produce intersex conditions, for example. What if it is that physically based & that complex?


  298. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Josh:
    yeah, your timeline’s good! as for Alan and his wife, hmm…


  299. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Beakerj:
    Exactly.


  300. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Beakerj wrote:

    As far as I’m aware many causes may eventually be ‘found’ for gender dysphoria, including various hormonal issues during early foetal development which means that the balance of male/female hormones on various stages of development of mind may be as disordered as those which produce intersex conditions, for example.

    IMO we need to consider this possibility. It would not be the first time that presumed emotional/mental causes of observed effects turned out to be incorrect because a physical basis was unknown or undetectable at the time the “diagnosis” was made of mental illness.

    Yet, even if the gender confusion/dysphoria resulted from emotional trauma or some other unchosen cause, the dysphoria still exists, and, IMO, we need to think carefully about what to do or not do about that. I’m uneasy about the wall of moral separation erected between mental/emotional and physical causes that we see, for example, in the nouthetic movement. I would like for this to be simple, but it is not.


  301. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Nancy:
    Excellent points Nancy, I really appreciate the way you put that. Add to all that the fact that we now know what’s going on all the time, anywhere. It seems we’re more disconnected then ever, while at the same time under more social pressure then ever. No wonder things are a touch acrimonious.


  302. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    One comment funny but a tad too risqué for this comment stream so not approved. It really was funny.


  303. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Beakerj:

    Yes. It is much more complicated than a black/white response. On another note, I didn’t know that Ken was in the medical field and had the answers to these complicated issues.


  304. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget wrote:

    On another note, I didn’t know that Ken was in the medical field and had the answers to these complicated issues.

    Nor did I …