“Constant kindness can accomplish much. As the sun makes ice melt, kindness causes misunderstanding, mistrust, and hostility to evaporate.”-Albert Schweitzer link
UPDATE: Due to Dee trying something new and stupid, the formatting was off on this page. It has been corrected.(Sort of)
The Weather Channel has just announced that Raleigh could be hit with a catastrophic ice storm. Last time that happened, my house was out of power for 4 1/2 days. If that happens, there could be issues with the blog as well. Please bear with us if I cannot approve comments, etc. I wll try to get messages through to Twitter ( @wartwatch).
I have been friendly with Rob Smith since the first time we met at a Cracker Barrel in Greensboro, NC a couple of years ago. I have known of this story since that meeting and hoped to be able to tell it. Rob decided to wait as things accelerated with both Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. I think our readers will find this story deeply disturbing. Not only did Mars Hill cause great pain to Rob but they also tried to destroy this ministry to orphans by pulling out. I pray that God will bless this ministry. At the same time, there are some people who should be downright ashamed of themselves. Or perhaps they have no shame…
You can view this post on Rob's blog Musings From Under the Bus.
*********************************************
This post has taken a long time to write. There are many reasons for it and I trust that each reader will understand as they read it.
In February of 2007, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon about Boaz, who he referred to as the “Dude of dudes.” Toward the end of the sermon, called “Redeeming Ruth – God’s hand in our luck,” at 58 minutes into the sermon, he says the following:
58:48 to 1:04:50.. and I will tell you in conclusion of a Boaz kind of guy who’s doing a Boaz kind of work…and I will give him some, some backup today. His name is Rob Smith. Working with him is a man named Marc Fulmer [pictured above]…they are both members of this church. Rob was a guy who grew up between Africa and the United States of America – he’s been a member of this church for a long time with his family – many of you know him – he’s a great guy – I love him – he’s a dear friend – and he saw the AIDS epidemic in South Africa, in Africa…knowing that about 20% of people are HIV positive and that there are eleven million orphans…and many widows in Africa. And so he devised a plan sort of taking the gleaning principle of Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Ruth saying “we need to have a farm that produces a harvest that is an ongoing source of food and life…and on that farm we need two things…we need an orphanage and a church. The church to be the church and love people and raise them and to teach them sexual chastity and raise kids to love Jesus so that this epidemic stops…and also an orphanage so that these kids are loved and have a roof over their head and food in their stomach…and a mother and father figure in their life – that being the pastor as well as these widows. We move in widows and orphans…and we care for widows and orphans because that’s the heart of God…and we do that as the church on a self-sustaining farm sort of taking many of the principles from a book like Ruth. So he started this organization – go to Agathos Foundation.org – or grab paperwork on the way out – and he’s got this concept called “One Church One Village” where a church in the US partners with a church in the village to get a farm…to plant a church…and to open an orphanage…and money goes from us who have the wherewithal, like Boaz, to help…out in the field.
So Mars Hill…we’ve done this in the past…you probably don’t know this…some years ago you all purchased a large piece of land in India that now has on orphanage with 100 kids on it and you purchased the land. So this is kinda what we do… So in Africa we partnered and we have an orphanage there that now has – I think it is – 32 kids and 140 people in Mars Hill give monthly to help support them. What am I saying? Do your part with the people in your life, give to your church, beyond that have a global heart for widows, orphans, the poor and those in need…
I am going to ask you to support some widows and orphans in Africa, We have an orphanage, we have a village…members of Mars Hill have actually moved there to take care of widows and orphans.
My involvement in the last year of standing up and speaking out against the well-documented abuses at Mars Hill Church was never about revenge or getting even. It was not about me or Agathos Foundation, which was the orphan care ministry Mark Driscoll referenced in the above 2007 sermon, which I founded in 2002 and which also was the year Merle and I became members of Mars Hill Church.
For six years after leaving Mars Hill Church I had no public voice. My open engagement in the story began in December of 2013 when I began to hear of the repeated abuse of others at Mars Hill Church. This includes standing up for many men who still will have nothing to do with me. This is partially because of slanderous attacks leveled against me and Agathos after I appealed to the elders to conduct a fair trial for Paul Petry in 2007.
As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. He threatened to make sure that I could never be in ministry again.
In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church.
This was not due to the kindness of the elders (who told us we could not leave because we were under “church discipline”). It was because of a backfire in strategy by then executive pastors Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas, who handled my “discipline case.” They did not want us to leave. In attempting to keep us from leaving they recruited the largest donor to Agathos (who was also a large donor to Mars Hill Church) to encourage us to stay. When that donor eventually supported our decision to leave peaceably, Jamie Munson was in a pickle. He could continue the stance that we could not leave because we were under discipline and offend the large donor, or he could let us leave in peace and not offend the donor. So we were “allowed” to leave in good standing. The full story of the endless meetings that got us to that point is a post for another day.
You will want to hear that story.
But despite leaving peaceably – we had crossed a line. To use Mark Driscoll’s oft spoken words, we had “pissed him off.” For merely appealing to Mark Driscoll and a small handful of the lead elders, including the recently repentant Pastor James Harleman (one of my dearest friends at the time), the attacks on my character began. And the attacks on Agathos began.
A little background about Agathos.
In 2002, Agathos began as a ministry to rescue orphans in Africa during the peak of the “out-of-control” HIV/AIDS crisis. Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill Church were highly supportive of the ministry and gave Agathos favored exposure within the church and throughout Acts 29.
Over time, as we worked we grew from a young start-up ministry learning from our experiences and our mistakes. In early 2007, Agathos proposed a “One Church One Village” model of linking an American Church with an African Church in the rescue and care of orphans. The commitment of the US church was to raise $625,000 over six years for the orphan village it had “adopted”, and the commitment of the African church was to be the hands and feet on the ground caring for orphans in distress.
The first two American churches that committed to this was Mars Hill Church in Seattle, and The Vine Church in Redmond, Washington. Mars Hill Church committed itself to Kwethu Village in South Africa, along with its 32 children and their caretakers, some of whom were young widows who themselves were impacted by the HIV/AIDS crisis. The Vine Church, led by Pastor Jesse Winkler, committed themselves to a new orphan village to be constructed just south of Ndola, Zambia.
Within weeks of the agreement, Mars Hill Church took over The Vine, and Jesse Winkler became the lead pastor for Mars Hill Bellevue. We were all excited as Mars Hill Ballard took over the relationship with the South African village under Kabyn Vikesland and Mars Hill Bellevue took over the relationship with the new proposed Zambian village. The future for Agathos looked bright, as discussion with executive elder Scott Thomas included plans to have each campus support an orphan village, and each Acts 29 church encouraged to do the same.
The vision for 1,000 orphan villages to be supported seemed possible. It was so encouraging. Agathos was now five years old and many Mars Hill members had been to Africa to visit the children rescued, and many more threw their support behind Agathos. This was usually by committing to $25 per month.
This all happened in August 2007 – one month before the infamous trial of Paul Petry.
When Paul Petry and Bent Meyer were fired, I heard that they were going to be put on trial. Many were asking questions, and it became clear that they were not going to receive a fair and impartial trial. The charges against them were unclear and seemed trivial. They were not going to be allowed to attend their own trials so that they could defend themselves. Their accusers were also members of the jury that would convict them. No witnesses were allowed.
It was clear that the trials would occur in such a way as to have long term bad consequences for the church. So I wrote a private email to the elders pleading for a fair trial. It was not written to defend Paul Petry or Bent Meyer. It was written to protect Mars Hill Church from the long term consequences of an unfair trial. I wrote that an “unfair trial would leave a shadow that would not easily go away”.
I was told that I had sinfully “inserted” myself, and that what I had written was written in “pride” and therefore disregarded. I was told that I should have gone to only one elder, (James Harleman), and that by going to all the elders I was actually trying to cause division among the elders. I was therefore placed under church discipline for being “divisive.”
The elders that dealt with my “case” were James Harleman, Dave Kraft, and Tim Reber. All have since repented of their role in the treatment of Paul Petry. None have addressed their role in my discipline, or their passivity in what followed regarding Agathos.
The last meeting that I had at Mars Hill Church was after both the trial and the changing of the bylaws. At the meeting was Jamie Munson, Scott Thomas, James Harleman, a man who for now will remain unnamed who was a major donor to both Agathos and Mars Hill Church, and the unflappable Will Hofman who supported me as a witness to the discipline process I was placed under by church leaders.
After Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas agreed with the donor that Merle and I should be free to leave the church peaceably, I raised the question about the continued support of Agathos. After all, the “One Church One Village” effort was led by members of the respective Mars Hill campuses. I had little to do with it. The support was widespread throughout Mars Hill Church.
When I asked the question there was a stunned silence for a minute. Jamie Munson then looked at the donor and asked “What do we do about Agathos?”
“We continue to support Agathos!” came the reply.
Scott Thomas, who at the time was the head of Acts 29 and very active in both the trial of Paul Petry and the changing of the bylaws, looked directly at me and said emphatically, “We will never abandon our orphans!” As he said that he brought his hands together and interlocked his fingers.
It was heartwarming.
Little did these men know that Mark Driscoll had threatened to destroy Agathos, along with threatening to destroy me and any future ministry endeavor.
So the infamous ad hominem attacks began. They had begun earlier at the trial of Paul Petry. It was me who Paul Petry sought out to discuss the “church discipline” wording in the proposed bylaws. This was one of the charges brought against Paul Petry. He allegedly had “violated elder protocol” by allowing a lowly member to see the proposed bylaws. Imagine that! The wording Paul Petry proposed on the rights of a member under discipline was actually written by me.
I had been approved to be an elder of Mars Hill Church. I was the pastor in charge of community groups for the new Mars Hill Wedgwood Campus. I had faithfully served Agathos and Mars Hill Church as a member for the previous five years. Yet it was a crime against the church for Paul Petry to consult with me regarding the new bylaws.
So at the trial of Paul Petry the attacks began. “You have no idea who Rob Smith is…”, stated Mark Driscoll at Paul Petry’s trial, “You do not know him like I know him..”, he continued. “He is the biggest troublemaker in Mars Hill’s history!” And so the attacks began.
And so did the attacks on Agathos. I hear them still today.
Little matter that I had just been approved to be an elder. Little matter that James Harleman had offered me a paid position as an elder at Wedgwood starting in 2008 if I would accept the position. Little matter that hundreds of members were supporting our orphans in Africa, and many could witness the ministry first hand.
None of that mattered.
Not a single elder stood up to ask how I could have been vetted for eldership one week, and be “the biggest troublemaker in Mars Hill’s history” the next. How was it that in February I was a man like Boaz, dude of dudes, and now ten months Iater I was pariah? No elder cared to ask.
Within a few months most of the members of Mars Hill Church withdrew their support of orphans under our care. The emails we received were similarly written. “We have been led by God to support another ministry.” Almost all of them pointed to God’s “leading.” It certainly looked like they had been coached on what to say.
At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. We hunkered down and prepared ourselves for the impact of Mark Driscoll’s threat. It came swiftly and with great effect.
In February 2008, less than two months after his promise not to abandon “our” orphans, we received a letter from Scott Thomas. Mars Hill Church was ending its relationship to Agathos. What I did not know, was that Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas had called Marc Fulmer, who leads Agathos to this day, and threatened to pull support unless I resigned from Agathos and Mars Hill Church took it over and re-branded the ministry as a Mars Hill ministry. They proposed to keep Marc – but I had to go. Marc turned the “offer” down and we received the letter from Scott Thomas shortly thereafter.
So Agathos lost about 85% of its support.
I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon “our orphans.” He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership. He appealed that he had no say in the matter. He said that his hands were tied.
I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscoll’s “mistakes.” The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its “misuse” of funds. I asked where he got such information. He had no idea. He had simply accepted the rumors. Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. She was warned not to work with Agathos. She came to me in sorrow that she walked away from a relationship with Agathos after that Mars Hill warning.
Ad hominem attacks.
I am sure that there may never be a full recovery when one’s name has been intentionally slandered. That is why God takes such seriously. It is similar to theft. The stealing of a man’s good name has severe consequences, some of which are almost impossible to overcome. That is why it is an awful sin against someone.
Agathos has survived and our children have done well. But it was not easy.
For several years we put ourselves under a good ministry called Pilgrim Africa. This action removed our orphans from the slander we were enduring and we encouraged our remaining supporters to support Pilgrim. In 2009, Agathos then closed its doors and Kwethu Village continued under Pilgrim.
In 2014, Agathos was reborn as Agathos International.
There were two reasons for this. First was that while Pilgrim willingly supported our orphan village in South Africa from 2009 to 2014, their ministry is focused in Uganda, so Kwethu Village was somewhat outside their scope. The second reason was a strong sense that Agathos had always had a broader ministry to the broken and poor in the communities we served. and we felt the need to reemerge and serve that purpose.
So after seven years since leaving Mars Hill Church, Agathos is once again supporting Kwethu Village. Some of the orphans that were rescued by Agathos through the early support of Mars Hill members are now entering university. The stories are amazing! New orphans are being accepted as the village grows.
Because of the intent behind the early vision of Agathos, the monthly support costs are strikingly low. Most support comes from local activity in the village. It is wonderful. Local support and local economic activity pays for most of the costs of the care of the the village.
I encourage readers to consider supporting Kwethu Village with a monthly contribution. We are looking to raise a total of $3,000 per month for the village. As you see the precious lives of children in distress being impacted and stabilized, you will agree that this is a great value for so little per month.
Please consider becoming a monthly supporter of our orphans. The fruit of your support will be eternal.
Agathos International is also committed to creating economic life for the broken in the areas that God has placed us. So we are working to address poverty both in the countries in Africa where we have impacted orphans and the poor, as well as in the U.S. where we are beginning to call successful businessmen and businesswomen to engage the issue of poverty through our “Freedom, Wealth, and Poverty” events that we host in the greater Seattle area.
Agathos is run on a voluntary basis with no salaries being paid on the U.S. side. This allows over 95% of what we receive to go into program. Please feel free to contact me for more information.
OMG, first post?
Congrats!
And now that I’ve read the story 😉 …
I did not think this was possible, but my esteem for Mark Driscoll has just dropped several notches. This man seems to have nothing of Christ in him, and is completely ill-suited to do any kind of preaching or pastoring. He should be in counseling for anger management issues, at the very least.
I feel so bad for what happened to Rob Smith and Agathos at the hands of this charlatan/huckster. There seems to be no end to the evil MD has perpetrated.
dee wrote:
Thanks!
I’d like to thank the Academy, my producer… oh wait, wrong speech!
Seems rather slow this evening – which is probably why I was first 🙂
@Roebuck,
And if you give me a nice tip, I’ll give you the keys back to your cool car.
Wait a second, your Mom wants the cool car because you didn’t thank her in your speech.
Michaela wrote:
That’s because I didn’t get to the end of it… “and of course, none of this would have been possible without the incredible life-long support of my Mom, 93 years old and going strong”.
@Roebuck,
LOL.
“I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon “our orphans.” He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership. He appealed that he had no say in the matter”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Scott Thomas, come on, man. of course you had a say in the matter. and your choice to sign the letter (& what led up to it) says it all. Do you not see this?
in light of how you have made a career as a Christian leader and leadership coach, I am truly perplexed that you haven’t come clean on this.
Rob,
Thanks for allowing us to share your heartbreaking story.
It’s interesting to note that around the same time Driscoll was publicly praising you (2007), he came to our area and did a “Boot Camp’.
Two years later he came back and held another. It nauseates me to recall how the guys in our area, including a seminary president, were fawning over Driscoll.
Have they apologized for following a man instead of Almighty God? Not a chance!
‘The elders that dealt with my “case” were James Harleman, Dave Kraft, and Tim Reber. All have since repented of their role in the treatment of Paul Petry. None have addressed their role in my discipline, or their passivity in what followed regarding Agathos.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
This seems particularly egregious. I can’t fathom why these guys apparently won’t take responsibility for their actions here. Kind of hard to completely take their apologies seriously (at repentantpastor.com).
I notice that James Harleman still calls himself a “pastor”, and Dave Kraft coaches “pastors”. Just another reason why “pastor” tops my list of meaningless words.
Deb wrote:
Danny Akin is a huge disappointment to me. But he needs to appeal to the Baptist21 crowd, so he approves of what they like rather than setting an example for them. One would think that the mature men of faith would have been warning their students and followers about the likes of Driscoll instead of promoting him. Driscoll was good for recruiting and Acts29 was a good way to get the old people’s money to create jobs…ahem…plant churches with recent seminary grads.
@ Gram3:
It is quite interested how all of this has unfolded.
SEBTS enjoyed promoting Mark Driscoll, as this video reveals.
https://vimeo.com/3267866
@ Gram3:
“Dr1scoll was good for recruiting and Acts29 was a good way to get the old people’s money to create jobs…ahem…plant churches with recent seminary grads.”
+++++++++++++++
ain’t it the truth. industrial kingpins but Christian.
elastigirl wrote:
Amen! Anyone can call themselves ‘pastor’. What does it even mean any more?
@ Deb:
Watching the Accuweather radar. Hoping you all don’t get a lot of ice. Bad, bad stuff. It’s one reason we keep a couple of generators.
@ Gram3:
It's sleeting here. Hoping it ends soon.
@ elastigirl:
"Big Papa D" and Acts 29 were promoted at the 2010 SBC Annual Meeting. Check out this motion which I remember watching live. 🙄
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHqtKHch08
Deb wrote:
How they have fallen! Just four years ago they were all smiles.
“Teamwork will make the dream work.”
The dream turned out to be a nightmare.
Have the sycophants in the SBC repented yet?
roebuck wrote:
Although it’s obscured by the unusual spelling, It’s an agent noun.
actor: one who acts.
pastor: one who pasts.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Sort of like the old joke:
Q: What’s the opposite of progress?
A: Congress
__
“Calling Successful Businessmen And Businesswomen To Engage The Issue Of Poverty?”
“The Agathos mission focuses on emergency relief and poverty alleviation in Africa, with a special emphasis on widows and orphan care. Agathos International is also committed to creating economic life for the broken in the areas that God has placed us. So we are working to address poverty both in the countries in Africa where we have impacted orphans and the poor, as well as in the U.S. where we are beginning to call successful businessmen and businesswomen to engage the issue of poverty through our “Freedom, Wealth, and Poverty” events that we host in the greater Seattle area.” ~ Rob Smith
(Agathos is run on a voluntary basis with no salaries being paid on the U.S. side. This allows over 95% of what we receive to go into program.)
Please feel free to contact Rob Smith for more information:
Agathos International
18503 Teeside Ln
Arlington, Washington
(206) 353-2328
Rob Smith, founder
https://www.facebook.com/Agathos
http://www.agathosinternational.org/
—
In other news, the following headline appeared on the BBC news web-page today:
There’s hope for us all yet.
@ roebuck:
Paradoxically, that works better on the ear in UK english, where “progress” rhymes with “ogress” (viz, Fiona and Shrek) and evokes the prefix “pro-“. On the other hand, “Congress” has no specific meaning in the UK.
Q: What’s the opposite of progress?
A: The public sector
…doesn’t really work as a pun.
Anon wrote:
I find it particularly interesting, and ironic, that the very same people who engaged in endless “sin sniffing” and a certain type of examination of the sheep under their care, and who threw the word “repentance” around every chance they got, are somehow tone deaf to the idea now that their sin has been exposed. That is the very essence of hypocrisy and is justification (as if anyone needed any) to turn a deaf ear to them. A seller of sackcloth and ashes would starve to death with that crowd. Shame.
Am I the only for for whom the article is not displaying properly? The text is truncated on the right hand side by about an inch I would guess.
I’m not past the ” 58 minutes into the sermon” part….I would have left 28 minutes ago…..
Had an old preacher tell me ” if you can’t say what you need to in 20-25 minutes, your ego is writing the sermon, not the Holy Spirit.”
His point, at some point you’re losing folks….
Dee and Deb, please stay safe.
Tina wrote:
Amen…
Formatting issues. Dee did something dumb. I have corrected it so it is far easier to read. Sorry.
@ dee:
It’s displaying correctly now. Ta muchly!
And now I can read the article, too.
Deebs, you all keep safe there. This is a crazy winter this year.
58 minutes into the sermon!?
How long was the sermon?
And I’m not surprised at all to hear that MD dropped the orphans as soon as they no longer fitted his PR agenda. And started spreading lies to smear the work. What a loser he is. But we all knew that.
What gets me, what still gets me, is that the Reformed Big Dogs (Piper, Carson, Keller, Dover, I’m looking at you) have said nothing about their support of Driscoll. We have to assume they still support this charlatan, sincet they (correct me if I’m wrong) are still on record as doing so.
Sick.
I am always curious to know what attracts people to certain churches. I have read some of the stories on welovemarshill and it seems like what so many were attracted to were actually the shepherding cult type of tactics.
There is something about Driscoll, though, that I just cannot get past. I was following his trajectory since he was mentioned in Blue Like Jazz. Driscoll was always different. He had a very mean edge about him. A very nasty view of women and a sort of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now aura about him that I could not get past. And this was back in my evangelical mega days.
He scared me way back then as if he was born to be a cult leader. And as time went on I was aghast at how popular and mainstream he became. I think it says more about us than it does about Driscoll as there will always be Driscoll’s out there.
What attracted decent people to him?
Lydia, decent people were attracted to him because he taught a gospel that appeals to human nature, the flesh, and a gospel of feeling better about oneself. He taught a gospel that says go ahead and sin, you are under grace, it’s not that big of a deal. Because he did not separate the profane from the holy, it was and is incredibly appealing to a lot of people. It is Christianity without cost, without commitment, without Christ.
Some day all of us will be standing in the presence of the Lord and will hear God’s judgement on people like Driscoll and Mahaney and the rest of these “mini-Lords” that believe the sun revolves around them.
Lydia asks “What attracted decent people to him?” … it’s the same story time after time. A person with GREAT charisma can attract flies by the thousands in a fly paper factory! Most of these guys actually start out doing things well. What happens over time is that they fall prey to the followers and begin to think that they really are great (ever hear the story of the emporer with no clothes?). Once they have established that God speaks to them, and only them directly, then the shenanagans begin.
This past weekend I watched, just out of curiousity, Joel Osteen for about 20 minutes. He is a VERY DYNAMIC and CHARSMATIC individual. He is likeable. My wife says he is attractive (I don’t get that though). Whatever the reason, he packs them in whereever he goes. Unfortunately Joel primarily talks about picking oneself up by the bootstraps and then mixes in God a few times and Voula! 10,000,000 followers.
CJ Mahaney is one of those individuals as well (SGM founder). Very very charasmatic, funny, interesting and great to hang around. What happened though was that he began to believe that he WAS BETTER than everyone around him (because people told him that time and time again). He believed his own print! Oh well, one can’t really find out most of this stuff until it happens to them. Put me in that boat.
Somewhereintime wrote:
Mahaney and Driscoll are living examples of why new believers should *not* be in a position of leadership as the Bible says. Grudem and Ware own both of them, and the cancer has spread to many, many Baptist churches. Grudem’s son was on staff at Mars Hill and Acts29. Grudem and Ware spoke there. Grudem and Ware have tried to attract people to Mahaney’s Louisville enterprise. Dever sheltered him in D.C., and Mohler in Louisville.
All of these faux men preach a gospel of male rulership and female subordination. Yet, right now, little girls and women are being kidnapped and forced into “marriages” with ISIS fighters and elsewhere in the world. Where are the voices of these great men of God while these satanic horrors go on?
Silent. They are absolutely soul-dead silent on these and other atrocities that are perpetrated on females just because they are females. I guess those girls and young women weren’t submissive enough. I wonder how submissive *is* submissive enough to suit these Great Men of the Gospel Glitterati. That is not the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
May wrote:
And were there deacons/beadles/ushers patrolling the aisles with wooden sticks to wake up anyone who dozed off with a crack on the head?
Lydia wrote:
He became one, didn’t he?
It’s called “discernment”.
“You’ll always have Nazis among you,
Next time they won’t have brown shirts or boots,
They’ll come speaking softly in three-piece suits,
But you’ll always have Nazis among you…”
— Donna Barr, closing aria to Desert Peach: the Musical
Gram3 wrote:
Because “these satanic horrors” ARE their Gospel(TM) of male rulership and female submission on steroids. Maybe they’re jealous that ISIS can do it and get away with it?
Or is that just irrelevant to the abstraction of Correct Doctrine and Perfectly-Parsed Theology?
Andrew wrote:
Bit too Christianese-sounding, Andrew.
He told them what they wanted to hear. How great they were, and how they could get away with what they wanted to do. And then there was the Sexual angle for extra juiciness. The sure sign of a false prophet — tell them what they want to hear instead of what they need to hear. That sort of stuff is ALWAYS popular.
@ Andrew:
I don’t know, Andrew. I always got the impression he used a sort of faux enemy for folks to focus on: What was then the mainstream Christian culture. Which made for a good enemy to many. With Driscoll you had the redneck Jesus, Mary humping Joseph in the back of a pickup and so on ad nauseum. That edge appealed to so many young people along with the early Indie Rock. He was highly entertaining in a vulgar cheap shot sort of way. And as it grows people are attracted to growth…thinking it means they must be right for so many people to sign on. (Which some of us now think the exact opposite)
Then he became the mainstream for several years. I read some of the earlier obscure survivor blogs from MH. Back before it was normal to see one around 2008 or so. The experiences women had there blew my mind in what he taught as every day truth about women in general.
@ Somewhereintime:
I see Osteen as a motivational speaker wearing a plastic Jesus fish. I have often wondered why we don’t hear more about the inner workings there. It could be they are just that good at managing/hiding the negative. I know a few other mega’s like that. Someday the top will blow off, though.
Looks like Frank was right, like that broken clock that is well, nevermind. Good job frank. As for the Pulpit and Pen cult, Coptics were Christians right out of the first century and have even more creds when it comes to apostolic succession than even the RC does.
oops wrong board sorry about that.
K.D. wrote:
I always said that if the preacher had to keep the nursery, the sermons would be over a whole lot sooner.
@ K.D.:
I so agree! Why do so many pastors and preachers preach between 45 mins and a hour? What happened to a sermon being less than 30 mins?
Ali wrote:
i) Tradition, and ii) what would you do with the rest of the time saved if the church service is basically a one-man band?
I’ve heard speakers who by sheer enthusiasm can speak for one and a half hours and you wouldn’t even think of getting bored.
I’ve also been to lunchtime services in the City of London where because it was in everyone’s lunch break 25 mins max was the order of the day. And more Christian truth was explained in those 25 mins than many who just don’t seem able to be concise!
Why do so many pastors and preachers preach between 45 mins and a hour
My husband is a pastor who writes his own sermons and he says it is way more work to organize and put concise thoughts together for a focused 20 min message than to say a whole bunch of stuff in 45 mins.
Li wrote:
I bet people remember a whole lot more as well. Good for him!
@ Ali:
“I so agree! Why do so many pastors and preachers preach between 45 mins and a hour? What happened to a sermon being less than 30 mins?”
++++++++++++++++++++
what comes to mind are
-mere tradition
-a task to justify the position/paycheck
-job security
-to keep the tithes coming in
-to justify the expensive building
-industry preservation
-sentimentality (the building sentimental, the tradition is sentimental, the format is sentimental…..)
-the sermon-speaker being indulgent
in all honesty, a church service/sermon is not time well-spent (for me, & I can’t believe i’m the only one). it takes up a huge chunk of time (transit & all), & 10 minutes after it concludes it’s gone from my mind. i couldn’t tell you what it was about. although I could tell you that I remember thinking, “sigh….. I’ve heard this a million times”, or “Paul, AGAIN??”
since I’ve assumed ownership of my own spirituality and faith (instead of giving it to the professionals to manage for me), I am so productive. I pray with a few friends once a week — it is dynamite. we get so much done in 1 hour. we plan things for people in our neighborhood, to build community and bring a God element into it. we have so many ideas up our sleeve. our energy is huge, because it is not tapped by the institution, nor is it spent on crazy dysfunction that so often accompanies the institution. i’ll put the mic down.
@ elastigirl:
Well said!!!
elastigirl wrote:
🙂 My dad often says ‘It’s getting drafty up here on my soapbox’!
And, as is a bit of theme with me at the moment, I agree about not offloading personal responsibility to ‘professionals’.
@ elastigirl:
Your not the only one at all. Church was meant to be sharing gifts together, believers were to meet together, but that is the only requirement. Listening to an opinion piece for an hour or more is not a requirement. Also, if only a few people are up there speaking, how do we get to know each others God given gifts? I would prefer a pray meeting format once a month where the entire church gathers into groups and prays for each other with at least one prophetic leader of the prayer team in each group (all encouraging, no wanna be prophets calling down wrath or judgment, of course). It would make for a great Sunday morning if it was done, oh, once a month or so.
These long sermons have to end. What is the point?
If he can’t say what he has to say in 20 minutes, then he should find something else to do.
How hard can it be to explain that God became Man? That man had alienated God? I can make those points in 30 seconds. Ten minutes into this sermon and my mind is already wandering…Can we get on with it already? The game starts in 20 minutes.
Did I just yawn out loud? More importantly, did he see me yawn?
Okay 45 minutes have passed…Does he really think I am going to remember any of this? If he would just cut his talk down to a concise 20 minutes, my mind could endure.
Speaking of enduring minds…
The average high school class is 50-55 minutes.
College lectures can easily run 60 minutes in length.
I will spend good money to go and be entertained and watch a movie that is 90+ minutes in length; I will listen to music for hours on end; I will spend more time reading and commenting on websites such as this; I will watch a sporting event that lasts at least 60 minutes if not longer; I will attend the theater and watch shows unfold on the stage for well over 2 hours. I will go to concerts that run 90 -120 minutes, but I can’t stand to listen to a sermon that runs longer than 20 to 30 minutes?
Okay it’s been close to 60 minutes now. 58 minutes and 48 seconds to be exact…
My poor ears…my suffering mind unable to endure.
Give me something short, sweet, to the point so I can get out and go shopping for a couple of hours. My little mind cannot stand these long, boring, dreadful sermons.
Do I suffer from ADHD?
Am I a Millennial who suffers from an under developed attention span?
Am I just short on the skills necessary to engage and reflect upon a lengthy discourse that requires “personal response – ability.”
Have I not been able to discipline my mind so that it does not wander in the midst of a sermon?
I’m getting sleepy…
Can someone tell him to shut up, already. His sermon is putting me to sleep.
Paul addressed the congregation. Our plan was to leave first thing in the morning, but Paul talked on, way past midnight. 8 We were meeting in a well-lighted upper room. 9 A young man named Eutychus (thats me) was sitting in an open window. As Paul went on and on, Eutychus fell sound asleep and toppled out the third-story window. When they picked him up, he was dead.
10 Paul went down, stretched himself on him, and hugged him hard. “No more crying,” he said. “There’s life in him yet.” 11 Then Paul got up and served the Master’s Supper. And went on telling stories of the faith until dawn! On that note, they left—Paul going one way, 12 the congregation another, leading the boy off alive, and full of life themselves.
Peterson, E. H. (2005). The Message: the Bible in contemporary language (Ac 20:7–12). Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress.
@ Eutychus:
INTeresting comment…..
sort of sounds like you feel you SHOULD be able to endure a long sermon, and are wondering why the difficulty.
this is what I think: I’ve heard it all before. I’ve heard everything. it’s been years since I’ve heard something insightful. we know that these days pastors “rent” of “buy” sermons from other sermon-givers. Or, they stylize their sermons from a book written by someone else, developing a sermon series based on such a book. Or they replay their own sermons time & time again.
we know that pastors are often overworked or sometimes full of entitlement (have an elevated sense of their position, perhaps feel that simply wearing the pastor hat is the essence of the job, not actual work) — the net result is less time devoted to sermon prep.
It is reasonable to conclude that life is busier, noisier, & more chaotic than ever before on planet earth (with electronic messages and currents constantly whizzing past our bodies and brains). our lives and brains are overloaded (generally speaking)
Year 1967 or 1976 or 1984 or 2001 or 2015 are simply not AD 30-66. Jesus in the flesh on earth brought a new dunamis dynamism that hadn’t yet been let loose amongst human beings. The Holy Spirit in Acts 2 absolOOTly gave entrance to a whole new dunamis dynamism for the very first time. The spiritual climate was full of static electricity (spiritually speaking). Everything was new.
There have been times in history and even now when the same or similar dunamis dynamism charges the air — but they are not the norm.
So, taking all ‘dat into consideration….. yes, sermons are boring and stale and of course we will daydream and feel antsy.
I say, nix sermons altogether. Let’s reinvent things.
Ali wrote:
It’s because cassette tapes became obsolete. Seriously.
A 60 min tape had 30 min on each side, and a 90 min tape had 45. The punchline was at the end of the sermon, and if you ran over, all those shut-ins, missionaries and transplants on your church’s tape mailing list would be left in the dark. I worked the sound board at church and mailed out all those tapes. The tape ministry leader sat in the back and pointed at his wrist when he thought the pastor would go past the end of the tape. Victim of the digital age.
Eutychus wrote:
See what you think of this as an answer to this question. There is a verse tucked away out of sight in Philemon that says:
I pray that the sharing of your faith may promote the knowledge of all the good that is ours in Christ.
This to me is the point of sermons/bible teaching. It is ‘to realise our assets’ as Christians, in both senses of the word realise; to find out about and then experience the good that God has for us.
There will come a point where you will have heard most of the subject matter before, but it never does any harm to be reminded.
What I don’t think the point of sermons is is to ‘sort the members out’ or to push a particular theological agenda (such as Calvinism or Arminianism). The motives for doing bible teaching are also important – those who do so need to have had the ‘flesh’ dealt with to some extent, so it is not showing off knowledge or going on any kind of ego trip. Status seekers keep out!
The length of the sermon should be determined by how much that is worthwhile the preacher has to say. The good we have in Christ is by no means limited to sermons either.
A plurality of speakers is also not bad thing – it is possible for anyone to go though a dry period when in essence they don’t really have anything to say. In which case take a breather, get charged up again and let someone else have a go and feed you for a change.
Ken wrote:
I’ve always thought this would be very beneficial for the church.
When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
@ Victorious:
Exactly. It is kind of interesting to note that in the NT, most “preaching” was done outside the ocntext of the Body. There are some scholars who trace the idea of sermonizing within the Body week after to week as adaptations from the Pagan temples (who had orators on stages) when they were Christianized.
The more I have thought about it, the more I think sermons week after week by the same person is NOT good for the Body spiritually. It sets the sermonizer apart from the others which was never meant for the Body. It also keeps others from maturing past the sermonizer. Besides, what does a Berean do in that situation?
At this point, I can hardly sit through one unless it has a scholarly historical emphasis. but even then I think it is important to have interaction. At least unvetted questions.
I think I have been around one too many mega charlatan!
Lydia wrote:
Even if one member of the body has experienced a new awareness of a scriptural truth and shares that. Then the body can either rejoice or weep with that person depending. It’s the interaction with one another that fosters love, compassion, encouragement, etc.
@ Victorious:
“It’s the interaction with one another that fosters love, compassion, encouragement, etc.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
…& mental stimulation.
elastigirl wrote:
As apposed to feeling like a walking dead . . .
Victorious wrote:
Yes! It is almost as if church means “check your brains at the door” and be indoctrinated by the guy who has truth on the stage week after week. I know that is unfair as a generalization but it often seems like it.
Victorious wrote:
…and that’s above and beyond the “interaction” with the “greeters” at the front door or the monthly potluck dinner! lol
Some say, ‘So, taking all ‘dat into consideration….. yes, sermons are boring and stale and of course we will daydream and feel antsy.
I say, nix sermons altogether.’
While in the back of my feeble, undisciplined mind I here the echos of a phrase from that anthem of days gone by: “Here we are now…entertain us…”
Regarding the ability to endure….
“Love endures all things” (except long boring sermons)
(1 Cor 13).
“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything (except long boring sermons) for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”
(2 Ti 2:8–10).
Those modern day Christians who have to endure torture and death are lucky not to have to sit through a 60 minute sermon.
“I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching (and long boring sermons), but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
(2 Ti 4:1–4).
There are those who say ‘I’ve heard it all before. I’ve heard everything’ No doubt they have heard these:
“And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.
And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.
And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”
(Mk 4:13–20).
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
(1 Co 1:14–25).
@ Eutychus:
At the moment, it’s you I find offensive in the way you are using scripture. Christ is not offensive or a stumbling block to me (and most of us here I dare say) in any way. I’ll complete my thoughts to you later when they are collected.
Bridget wrote:
Actually, you are hearing completely wrong.
@ Bridget:
That quote was from Eutychus not me. I don’t know why it quoted the wrong name.
@ Eutychus:
“Those modern day Christians who have to endure torture and death are lucky not to have to sit through a 60 minute sermon.”
++++++++++++++++
There’s something wrong with justifying something simply because it’s not torture. (you can justify anything on that basis, from being the recipient of criminal violence to correctable inefficiency, laziness, & stupidity).
you see, i’ve set the bar for my life and my family’s life much higher than “not torture”.
eutychus, chill out on the patronizing selective-verse quoting. it’s laced with all manner of insinuations. it’s like passive aggression… hiding prudish reprimands and insults in “hey, God said it not me”.
it would be great if you could just come out and say what you have to say.
Eutychus wrote:
Eutychus wrote:
Listening to Paul teach about the Lord Jesus is hardly comparable to listening to the average preacher who is probably not an above-average speaker in the first place. Paul knew a lot about the scriptures and he met Jesus in person, so I’m not buying your analogy.
Worship service is not the same thing as sermon. Gathering together does not mean only to listen to one person speak. A Body has more than a mouth and ears.
@ Eutychus:
Most sermons these days are cut and paste jobs. It has gotten so bad I can pretty much pin point their guru. And tell me you are familiar with the sermons for sale, right? There are entire packages with drama skits, videos, etc. No Holy Spirit required.
When someone blames me for not being mature enough to sit and listen I remind them I was required to sit through service at age 5. If I squirmed I got the raised eyebrow from my mom on the organ.
Now, I actually seek out good lectures so I can actually learn something. At church it has become too much about the guy on the stage and his ego. And I am serious when I say I have tried to find places that is not the case at ground zero. We are supposed to feel honored to hear them speak. Your choice is a Rick Warren knock off or a Piper knock off. The Driscoll knock offs have gone over to Piper. It really is that bad. I am starting to see why folks are becoming more attractd to liturgical.
@ Gram3:
Paul was a so so speaker. He put me to sleep more than once.
@ Lydia:
At least you didnt fall out the third story window. I bet your mom’s look was very similar to the “eye” Paul would give me when I would start to nod off.
Eutychus wrote:
health and safety would not allow it. :o)
The way that Agathos was treated by Mars Hill leadership is absolutely disgusting.
As I read Rob’s story – for which I am very thankful – something stuck out to me. He quotes Driscoll from a sermon, and part of the quote appears to Driscoll “revealing” to the church that they have already bought land in India, and some other ministry initiatives that they are already doing.
Is that the way that decisions were made at Mars Hill? A select few would decide how things would go, and the actual members were simply informed after the fact?
That’s terrifying, if so.
Mr.H wrote:
Yes.
Church members had no vote on anything.