John Piper, Robert Morris and Demons: Too Many Answers and Not Enough Questions

“I found I wasn’t asking good enough questions because I assumed I knew something.” – Alan Alda link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=31709&picture=otazky
Questions

Due to the meteoric rise of the ARC, we will be looking at the various issues surrounding demons since it seems to take up much of their teaching. Robert Morris has claimed that he has had many demons cast out from him and routinely gets help from his church in getting rid of more demons. He also claims that those who do not tithe open themselves up to demon possession. Since @ 95% of Christians do not tithe, the church could be one huge enclave of possessed Christians, if Morris' unsubstantiated claims are true.

I began to wonder how a theologian outside of the ARC might view this subject. Would he be more logical and careful as he approached the subject? I came up with a video in which John Piper describes an encounter with a young woman who he says was possessed a demon. Listen to the 6 minute video as Piper answers the questions "Have you exorcized a demon?" 

Here is a synopsis of the video from the Christian Post. Please note the title: John Piper's Personal Experience With Exorcism. He believes he was involved in exorcizing a demon in this instance.

(Piper) shared "a rare story" from long ago when some college students had called him at night saying they had cornered a girl they said was demon-possessed in a video posted on the Desiring God website.

When Piper and an associate reached the students' room, they saw a young woman in her 20s who looked "very hard and angry and dark in her face." The students told Piper it was not her – not her voice, not her face – and she was possessed.

Not knowing what to do, Piper began to read the Bible. "For the next two hours… roughly… she would shout, scream, come over… knock the Bible out of my hand. She pulled out, at one point, a knife, a little pen knife (with about a four-inch blade). I still had my winter coat on … So I thought to myself if she sticks me with that, it won't kill me."

But the girl only threatened, she didn't hurt anyone.

When the group began to sing, "Alleluia," she got "absolutely wild." "She threw herself on the ground… screaming" before she lost consciousness. This "mesmerized" everyone. When it was over, she looked different, her voice was different, and she didn't remember anything at all. "I handed her the Bible and asked her to read Romans 8. She read all Romans 8. And that's when we left her," Piper recalled.

Now pay close attention to the next part. This young woman began to attend Piper's church. 

She said she had been into "Satan stuff" on the West Coast. Piper said he wouldn't give details because she could get arrested if he did.

Questions to consider

How do Piper and Morris know if those they encounter are truly possessed?

Morris and Piper do not mention the need to do a careful mental health assessment before declaring someone is possessed. Piper says that we should be very careful when we  claim someone is possessed. However, it appears that in this instance he was not. The Vatican issued guidelines in 1999 which appear to be more sound than the Reformed Piper.

According to the Vatican guidelines issued in 1999, “the person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness.”[7] Most reported cases do not require an exorcism because twentieth-century Catholic officials regard genuine demonic possession as an extremely rare phenomenon that is easily confounded with natural mental disturbances. Many times a person just needs spiritual or medical help, especially if drugs or other addictions are present. 

Neither John Piper or Robert Morris are professional medical doctors. What appears to be demon possession could be schizophrenia, a bad drug interaction, epilepsy, auras surrounding migraine headaches, brain tumors, endocrine issues, and a myriad of other conditions. However, those are far less interesting than possession.

What about satanic ritual abuse and crimes such as child sacrifice and abuse.

Within Christendom, it is believed that participation in Satanic rituals leads to demon possession. In the 1970s, a number of Christians began to believe that there was routine Satanic ritual abuse happening all over the United States. This coincided with the publication of Mike Warnke's book, The Satan Seller.

In 1973, Warnke's book The Satan Seller was released. Written by Warnke, with help from Balsiger and Les Jones, the book tells of Warnke being orphaned as a child and his introduction into Satanism. Further detailed is Warnke's participation in sexual orgies, alcoholism, and drug dealing; his rise in the ranks of Satanism to the level of "high priest"; presiding over Satanic rituals including magical spells, summoning demons, ritual sex including a ritual kidnap and rape; 

Unfortunately, Warnke was proven to be a liar in 1991. However, the damage was done. Many Christians jumped on the Satanic abuse bandwagon, claiming that covens were everywhere. I cannot begin to tell you the numbers of Christians who have told me that they *knew* Satanists were performing child sacrifice on a regular basis. Such Christians claimed that they heard such testimony by those who left Satanism when they became Christians. 

Here is a question to ponder. If someone comes to the faith but has participated in a crime prior to that, shouldn't they report the crime and make restitution? Here is what I ask whenever anyone claims they know about *Satanists* sacrifice babies or rape and kidnap. Don't you think that you are morally obligated to report such a crime in order to bring restitution or relief to those who were harmed? 

Are these stories of Satanic abuse true? Should Christians spread unsubstantiated claims of demons, etc.?

During the "Satanist behind every corner* scare, Christians were amongst the biggest culprits in spreading a rumor that Proctor and Gamble executives worship Satan. This claim was patently false and led P&G executives to turn to the courts for relief from these lies. Snopes lists the claim.

PLEASE MAKE A DIFFERENCE 

The President of Procter & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue Show on March 1, 1994. He announced that due to the openness of our society, he was coming out of the closet about his association with the church of Satan. He stated that a large portion of his profits from Procter & Gamble Products goes to support this satanic church. When asked by Donahue if stating this on t.v. would hurt his business, he replied, "THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH CHRISTIANS IN THE UNITED STATES TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE."

I attended a woman's Bible study in the 90s in Dallas. A woman in the study requested we pray for this particular problem. I asked her if she had actually heard the program. She said her good friend did and she doesn't lie. I informed the group I would not be praying for this ridiculous claim. To make matters worse, a pastor sent out an email saying the exact same thing. I wrote him and warned him that Proctor and Gamble was threatening to sue anyone who passed on this rumor. He apologized.

However, Christians were not the only ones falling for reports of Satanic ritual abuse. The McMartin preschool child abuse trial showed how far the "satanic panic" reached into the general population. From Wikipedia:

 Members of the McMartin family, who operated a preschool in California, were charged with numerous acts of sexual abuse of children in their care. Accusations were made in 1983. Arrests and the pretrial investigation ran from 1984 to 1987, and the trial ran from 1987 to 1990. After six years of criminal trials, no convictions were obtained, and all charges were dropped in 1990. When the trial ended in 1990 it had been the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history.[1] The case was part of day care sex abuse hysteria, a moral panic over alleged Satanic ritual abuse in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Note that one of the main accusers finally admitted to being mentally ill.

Johnson, who made the initial allegations, made bizarre and impossible statements about Raymond Buckey, including that he could fly.[1] Though the prosecution asserted Johnson’s mental illness was caused by the events of the trial, Johnson had admitted to them that she was mentally ill beforehand. Evidence of Johnson’s mental illness was withheld from the defense for three years and, when provided, was in the form of sanitized reports that excluded Johnson’s statements, at the order of the prosecution.[22] 

However, after the panic died down in the late 90s, research seemed to indicate that there was very little evidence of any sort of rampant abuse by Satanists.  This, of course, raises questions about the veracity of the young woman in Piper's story since she claimed to be involved in Satan stuff that could get her arrested.

You should note that this alleged incident of Piper and the demon occurred 20 years ago, during the Satan panic.

Why would John Piper not want a crime to be reported?

This statement bothered me the most in the whole Piper and the demoniac video. 

 Piper said he wouldn't give details because she could get arrested if he did.

Well, maybe she should be arrested and stand trial for whatever it is that she participated in. There are problems with this line of thinking.

1. Was the woman truly possessed? We don't know since Piper did not see fit to have her examined prior to her supposed exorcism.
2. Did she tell the truth about participating in some sort of crime or was that a hallucination or confabulation?
3. Should Piper participate in covering up illegal activities since it appears he believes she could be arrested? Isn't this the same excuse that churches give when they cover up for pedophiles? Does the pastor get to decide whether a crime gets reported to the police?

I have to admit that I was startled by John Piper's exorcism story. He said he loved Driscoll's theology and that leads me to wonder if that includes Driscoll's demon trials? No wonder there is so much confusion on this subject throughout the church. 

Lydia's Corner: Exodus 2:11-3:22 Matthew 17:10-27 Psalm 22:1-18 Proverbs 5:7-14

Comments

John Piper, Robert Morris and Demons: Too Many Answers and Not Enough Questions — 356 Comments


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    should I claim 1st for the time being??


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    Mark

    Its official.


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    Let’s see…..

    Satanism, Warnke, McMartin Preschool, and demon deliverances…. my one question? When is HUG going to feast on all this? 😀

    This is right up his alley!


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    Well Dee in all fairness John Piper is the Pope for many people in the Neo-Calvinist movement. When he speaks its “ex-cethedra” and his voice has more authority than God himself. Just ask him…he knows why God smites towns, bridges, and one day Greg Boyd. 😛


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    The Vatican issued guidelines in 1999 which appear to be more sound than the Reformed Piper.

    But that’s ROMISH(TM).


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    Eagle wrote:

    Satanism, Warnke, McMartin Preschool, and demon deliverances…. my one question? When is HUG going to feast on all this?

    Dee’s already done a pretty good summary. Here’s a couple more details:

    The book exposing Warnke as a fraud was “Selling Satan: the Evangelical Media and the Mike Warnke Scandal” by Mike Hertenstein and Jon Trott of Cornerstone, a counterculture Christian magazine of the time. The text of the original Cornerstone article (which was expanded into the book) is online at http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/warnke1.htm .

    Many Activists got on the Satanic Panic bandwagon after Warnke, including John Todd (real piece of work), Joanna Michaelson (Hal Lindsay’s then-sister-in-law), Constance Cumby (another Big Name), and others. Many of these were connected behind the scenes (or at least ran in the same circles) and cited each other for proof in Larry/Moe/Curly circular documentation.

    Most of the evidence for this Vast Satanic Conspiracy came through “repressed memory”, which in most cases was later found to be “false memory implantation” through True Believer counselors/hypnotherapists, similar to the Spectral Evidence later used for UFO Abductions. Since then, precautions have been put in effect to get testimony from children without triggering false memory syndrome.

    My dog in this fight was the extreme anti-fantasy/anti-FRP gaming end of this, from “Turmoil in the Toybox” to “Satan’s Bid for Your Child” to Jack Chick’s “Dark Dungeons”. I don’t have the ability to get the links right now, but one Australian online gamezine did a couple essays about the Satanic Panic’s effect on FRP gamers (as “Dungeons & DEMONS(sic)” was one of the primary targets. The aftereffects — a wedge of mutual distrust and hostility driven between Christians and gamers — continue to this day. Similar wedges were driven between Christians and artists and fandoms of all types — even My Little Pony fandom.


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    (Piper) shared “a rare story” from long ago when some college students had called him at night saying they had cornered a girl they said was demon-possessed in a video posted on the Desiring God website.

    Does “cornered” equal “kidnapping”?


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    This statement bothered me the most in the whole Piper and the demoniac video.

    Piper said he wouldn’t give details because she could get arrested if he did.

    This smells of the documentation and provenance of the sensational stories in National Enquirer and Weekly World News. Always taking place somewhere far away in the Third World where you can’t check on details, or where all details and evidence were either suppressed by The Conspiracy or must be kept secret “to protect those involved”.

    This also goes back to the Satanic Panic in the Age of Mike Warnke. You have to take it all on FAITH FAITH FAITH in the Word of the ManaGAWD and Anti-Satanic Activists.


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    I was a young adult in the 90’s and I remember the demon scare very well. I had relatives giving me paper crosses to tape above every door to ward off the evil spirits (especially one for over the nursery door!), friends telling me to watch what I say, because demons were listening, and who could forget Warnke? I never put up the crosses, but I did tend to worry about demons eavesdropping. Until I recalled “greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world”, and “resist the devil and he will flee from you.”

    Then I started literally giving demons the raspberries if someone cautioned me. Why would they deserve my reverent fear and respect? Whether any were listening in, I wouldn’t know, but people around me got the message that it wasn’t worth my time.

    I also share your concern, Dee that Piper so casually admits to withholding his knowledge of alleged illegal activity. Somehow, many pastors seem to have decided that Jesus’ forgiveness trumps the law and the rights of those who have been hurt or victimized.


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    “When Piper and an associate reached the students’ room, they saw a young woman in her 20s who looked “very hard and angry and dark in her face.” The students told Piper it was not her – not her voice, not her face – and she was possessed.”

    Did her eyes turn black, too?

    “Not knowing what to do, Piper began to read the Bible. “For the next two hours… roughly… she would shout, scream, come over… knock the Bible out of my hand. She pulled out, at one point, a knife, a little pen knife (with about a four-inch blade).”

    Well, if Piper ever needs to make more $$$ on the side he could ghost write for “Supernatural.”


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    I just watched the Piper video. I got a strong impression that he was confabulating. Made it all up. I’m still trying to understand why this person seems to have such a position of ‘authority’.


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    Eagle wrote:

    John Piper is the Pope for many people in the Neo-Calvinist movement. When he speaks its “ex-cethedra” and his voice has more authority than God himself. Just ask him …

    You may not intend to, but as far as Piper is concerned you are starting to sound like an accuser of the brethren, which is ironic on a thread about demons and the satanic. What on earth has he done that you hate him so much? Piper’s theology/opinion and/or those who follow it may (or may not) deserve such censure, nobody is perfect, but I don’t see the need to attack the man himself so often and in such extreme terms, let alone make a feast out of it. I really do wish you would resist the temptation to talk like this.

    ‘He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.’


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    Couple of things. Why did Piper start reading the Bible at some random place he can’t recall? They may have mentioned prayer, but I think that is the first thing I would do, and I think I would remember where I started reading the Bible.

    I think it was presumptuous of Piper, using his word to describe others, to attempt to handle this by himself. What kind of arrogance is that? I don’t know of any physicians who will diagnose over the phone, so how could Piper possibly know what he was walking into or what potential hazards he was directing those college students to expose themselves to? That was irresponsible to say the least. He should have called for professionals, and then he could minister to her under more controlled circumstances without endangering the students.

    Then, at the climax she goes into what seems like a violent seizure or something and they just stand there and look at her and wait for her to come around? And then months go by and he finally gets around to asking her what was going on with her possession? What??????

    That said, I do think that possession occurs, though I have not ever witnessed it nor heard from anyone first-hand. I also had an experience with what I am convinced were demonic forces (not possession) and the only thing I could think of was to flee! And that is exactly what I did.


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    Ken wrote:

    ‘He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.’

    John Piper and his fellow travelers say all manner of hateful things about women. Will you denounce them for their hatefulness toward his sisters in Christ? Why is Piper exempt from the command to love?


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    Is demon possession real? Yes.
    Trouble is, you have to seek it to be possessed. This demon jumping out of the dog or live oak tree or whatever to possess you is bunk. You literally go into something seeking possession…..and trust me, more people seeking demons than you think….money, power, sex, just some of the things that make it so attractive….


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    @ Ken:

    In fairness to you, it may be that you have never encountered a devout Piperite. I don’t know any Catholics who revere the Pope more than Piperites revere Piper. Maybe it’s an American thing, but it is a very real thing. Piper and Grudem get everything straight from God’s mouth, so don’t even think about questioning either of them. And I’m not just talking about their woman problems.


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    @ K.D.:

    Do you think a demon might attack a strong believer to the point of tormenting and nearly killing the person? In this case the person most certainly wasn’t seeking power from the demon. This is not something that I have a good handle on, so just wondering about your experience.


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    From the OP:

    What appears to be demon possession could be schizophrenia, a bad drug interaction, epilepsy, auras surrounding migraine headaches, brain tumors, endocrine issues, and a myriad of other conditions. However, those are far less interesting than possession.

    Not only are they far less interesting in the sensational and marketing senses, but those scenarios do not allow Piper to play the role of Superhero in the story. That is not to say that I do not believe that something like this happened, but only that he colossally mismanaged the situation as he recounts it, and I think that is due to his arrogance which he attempts to mask with a meek manner.


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    Ken wrote:

    Piper’s theology/opinion and/or those who follow it may (or may not) deserve such censure, nobody is perfect, but I don’t see the need to attack the man himself so often and in such extreme terms, let alone make a feast out of it.

    Jesus certainly didn’t mince His words when attacking the errors and self-righteousness of the Pharisees. He sounded pretty angry to me calling them vipers, white-washed tombs, hypocrites, etc.


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    Piper’s “account” sounds like he made it up out of whole cloth.

    Dee, i do have a questions as to what you’re referring to as “Christendom.” Is that synonymous with American evagelicalism, maybe? (Not joking; the tetm dates back to the time of the Crusades, iirc, and while it might have been true of Westetn Europe prior to the 18th c., it isn’t anymore – though i suppose you could make a good case for certain forms of xtianity being culturally/politically dominant in today’s US.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My dog in this fight was the extreme anti-fantasy/anti-FRP gaming end of this, from “Turmoil in the Toybox” to “Satan’s Bid for Your Child” to Jack Chick’s “Dark Dungeons”

    From the decade of big hair and shoulder pads:
    Deception of a Generation (demonic toys)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hnjdq32u-MU

    The guy who hosted that show looks a little like Weird Al. Some of the toys and kids show discussed in that show are Scooy Doo, He Man, She Ra, Ken and Barbie, Care Bears, My Little Pony, Transformers


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    Does anyone else here remember the panic in the 1970s over the rock band KISS’s name supposedly standing for “Knights In Satan Service.” My mom heard that one and got concerned because my siblings were big KISS fans.

    Snopes covers that here:
    http://www.snopes.com/music/hidden/kiss.asp


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    K.D. wrote:

    Trouble is, you have to seek it to be possessed. This demon jumping out of the dog or live oak tree or whatever to possess you is bunk.

    Not all Christians believe that. I’ve heard some of the ones on TV say you can get demons through objects whose prior owners were into the occult. I don’t agree with this view, but some Christians do believe in it – such as Perry Stone.

    Pat Robertson thinks it’s possible for you to bring a demon home in a sweater you got from Goodwill, that somehow demons can attach themselves to objects, even if you yourself did not do some kind of incantation to invite them.


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    I have read this blog for several years and have appreciated your hearts in looking at problems in the church. I hope this site doesn’t become a place that finds joy in mocking people who have seen demonic manifestations both in and out of the church.It is not a joke if you have been involved.

    I have personally preached in twenty three countries and have seen things you think you would only see in a horror movie. Demons are real. Jesus seemed to agree. Most with exposure to missionaries outside of the west will have heard similar things from reliable witnesses. God bless.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    “Not knowing what to do, Piper began to read the Bible. “For the next two hours… roughly… she would shout, scream, come over… knock the Bible out of my hand. She pulled out, at one point, a knife, a little pen knife (with about a four-inch blade).”

    Well, if Piper ever needs to make more $$$ on the side he could ghost write for “Supernatural.”

    XD


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    John R wrote:

    I hope this site doesn’t become a place that finds joy in mocking people who have seen demonic manifestations both in and out of the church

    I have made me belief in demons known. However, I do not believe that we can anecdotally diagnose demons based on a woman who was yelling and whose face looked dark. We need to approach this subject with care, utilizing medical experts to rule out a medical/psychiatric problem. An anecdotal “I am sure it was a demon” is not the wisest of paths. Even Jesus sent lepers to the priest

    Also, “finds joy?” Huh? I find it disturbing to say the least.


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    Daisy wrote:

    The guy who hosted that show looks a little like Weird Al. Some of the toys and kids show discussed in that show are Scooy Doo, He Man, She Ra, Ken and Barbie, Care Bears, My Little Pony, Transformers

    Scooby Doo actually makes sense; it’s filled with ghosts and witches and monsters. 😀


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    I read someone saying something nice about Piper the other day. I thought maybe I should be willing to give the man a little leeway. But, no. Once again the same questions about his conduct and behaviour and supposed wisdom come shooting out of his own website. There are so many details in Piper’s account which are troubling.

    Notice how she is referred to as a girl – if it had been a 20-something young man would he have been called a “boy”.

    Cornered – held, detained? Could she have left the room or told them all to leave? Or was this an early version of the Star Chamber?

    Who called Piper “at night” and had the pull to have Piper “and an associate” (no doubt to cover Piper’s “reputation” if they were going to be interacting with a “girl”) come over to see someone who was “cornered”? How long did they take to get there? All the time this woman is “cornered”?

    Two hours of having to stay and listen to someone read the Bible. “Not knowing what to do” Piper reads the Bible at her for two hours. Everything about this screams “I will control you until you succumb”! No mention of if they all considered whether she was ill or hungry or tired out of her mind. Just the word of a bunch of students who diagnosed her, determined that by her facial appearance and voice she was “possessed”. She is cornered by a bunch of college kids while a man she has never met reads the Bible at her for two hours?

    Then a knife appear. But everything is fine because PIPER HAS A COAT! Are you freaking kidding me? Dee, please tell me this is a joke!

    Does the associate have a coat? The other people who had her “cornered”, were they safe enough in their sweatshirts and jeans? Did Piper pass his coat around depending on where the knife was pointed?

    But, hey! The ending is great! After two, three, four(?) hours of being cornered, she falls unconscious. And the normal Reformed reaction to seeing a person unconscious is not to render first aid, call 911, but to be mesmerized. Then thankfully she comes around and they have her read something from the Bible. As one does after being unconscious…

    Then they all leave. Ain’t that precious! How about they sit with her, feed her, comfort her, meet her needs? No. If this woman truly went through a demon possession did she really need to be alone?

    “Yea, verily, the cornerers and the great coated man went on rejoicing, patting each other on the back for defeating the enemy though they knew not what they were doing. They filled their stomachs at Denny’s and did retire to bed. For the night was dark and the hours few until they should arise again to read and sing and not waste their lives.”

    And the happily ever after part? The woman trades one unholy cult for another. The coated man knows her secrets and she “chooses” to attend his church.

    Cornered lady; wherever you are I hope you find the One who truly frees. The One, Jesus, who spoke words of truth and compassion, not spiritual filibusters to break down the will. The one who wept with his friends, who cared for his mother and the ill and the lame and the possessed. I hope you have found him. I hope you find freedom from the spiritual abusers who corner us until we break or run, sometimes with knives in our backs. I hope you found freedom.


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    Heather wrote:

    Then a knife appear. But everything is fine because PIPER HAS A COAT! Are you freaking kidding me? Dee, please tell me this is a joke!

    Piper is a master at being unintentionally humorous.


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    @ Heather:

    Excellent observations and analysis, Heather.


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    @ Heather:

    Don’t worry about it, Heather. It never happened. He just pulled the whole story out of his hat, or somewhere else. The whole performance in that video seemed totally fake to me…


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    Corbin wrote:

    Piper is a master at being unintentionally humorous.

    Well that is one way to describe it 😉

    I’ll refrain from sharing my thoughts on this episode of Piper’s as I don’t think I could do it justice and not offend a few Piper fans. One word I can say is “‘M’isguided.”


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    Bridget wrote:

    I’ll refrain from sharing my thoughts on this episode of Piper’s as I don’t think I could do it justice and not offend a few Piper fans. One word I can say is “‘M’isguided.”

    I highly doubt anyone who admires Piper reads here. Sure, we get the occasional person calling everybody gossipy lowlifes, but besides that I don’t think they care what we say.


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      __

    Dee, it is fairly easy for those who have not experienced this ‘type’ of evil encounter to discount the testmony of others. 

    huh?

    Satan is a real person. One third of heaven joined him in his rebellion. On earth, he has no equal. Do you think they just sit around drinking mint juleps and play checkers while they ‘await’ their destruction?

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    …wishful thinkin’, I’m afraid.

    (sadface)

    Sopy


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    Dee, there is no question to me that some things that people called demonic are fraulent, works of the flesh, or medical issues. It seemed to me some of the posters thought the whole subject matter was humerous. Perhaps I was wrong . if so I am sorry to have misconstrued their comments.

    I am an anonymous internet poster which isn’t much of a resume but I have seen and used the name of Jesus name in English in countries where the people listening spoke no English and you could see physical and emotional changes immediately. In those environments , you use whatever discernment you have to do the best you can.

    The encounters I am speaking of are quite a bit more chaotic that we in the west are used to. It has been quite eye opening for someone who has a law degree and grew up in a conservative evangelical home.


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    dee wrote:

    “Satanist behind every corner” scare…

    You missed the grandaddy of all of them, greater than Warnke even. Hundreds of Baptist churches in the 1970s had record album burnings and changed Halloween parties to “Harvest Festivals” thanks to this guy: the infamous former “High Priest of Satan” and member of “The Illuminati” (this was before anyone ever heard of The Illuminati): the late John Todd.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Does anyone else here remember the panic in the 1970s over the rock band KISS’s name supposedly standing for “Knights In Satan Service.” My mom heard that one and got concerned because my siblings were big KISS fans.

    I remember this. However, where KISS is concerned, your mom should probably have been more concerned for reasons of taste than theology. (Conveniently decides to ignore own teenage music habits….)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    But that’s ROMISH(TM).

    And as everybody knows, Papists are not true Christians…(tongue in cheek HUG, tongue in cheek)


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    John R wrote:

    I have read this blog for several years and have appreciated your hearts in looking at problems in the church. I hope this site doesn’t become a place that finds joy in mocking people who have seen demonic manifestations both in and out of the church.It is not a joke if you have been involved.

    I think you are misunderstanding what is happening in this thread. No one is mocking the existence of demons. I believe that even believers can be severely attacked, and I have close connections to people who have worked in ministry where there is worship of demons.

    What people are mocking is the faux panic that was ginned up to promote people like Morris or Warnke or Gothard, not Christ. What we are mocking and exposing through mockery are those who are making or have made a mockery of *real* demonic activity and in the process are making a mockery of Christ and his church. The people alleging demonic activity where there is none are no different than the Rolling Stone debacle which cheapens real victims of rape by making stuff up. That is wrong and is a violation against real victims. The ones like Morris that are exploiting people’s fear of demonic activity are the real mockers.

    People are rightly pointing out Piper’s ridiculous response to a situation which he himself recounts. I am a critic of John Piper for many reasons, not least of which is his seemingly incessant quest for attention. I think that it is fair to critique a public personality for actions which he himself described in a public place. I mock him when he is mockable. If you knew me, you would know that I mock myself when I am mockable. And if I don’t, I have a husband and grown kids who are happy to take care of that. The problem is that there is no corrective voice for Piper who, along with his fanboys, takes himself far, far too seriously. He has set himself above everyone else as Apostle to the World now that he is not shackled to the pulpit at BBC.


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    Heather wrote:

    Cornered lady; wherever you are I hope you find the One who truly frees. The One, Jesus, who spoke words of truth and compassion, not spiritual filibusters to break down the will. The one who wept with his friends, who cared for his mother and the ill and the lame and the possessed. I hope you have found him. I hope you find freedom from the spiritual abusers who corner us until we break or run, sometimes with knives in our backs. I hope you found freedom.

    That is 100 percent awesome. Thank you, Heather.


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    Corbin wrote:

    Heather wrote:
    Then a knife appear. But everything is fine because PIPER HAS A COAT! Are you freaking kidding me? Dee, please tell me this is a joke!
    Piper is a master at being unintentionally humorous.

    That often happens when people lack self-awareness. Who provides any feedback to Piper that he will listen to?

    Is it just me, or does this story really revolve around Piper? The 4″ knife and the winter coat thing sounds like unnecessary detail added for dramatic effect. She keeps coming at him with things, but he perseveres nonetheless until she is “saved.” What a guy!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Is it just me, or does this story really revolve around Piper? The 4″ knife and the winter coat thing sounds like unnecessary detail added for dramatic effect.

    Like Machete Man at Mars Hill?


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    Agree with you, John R@ John R:


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    Anon wrote:

    Hundreds of Baptist churches in the 1970s had record album burnings and changed Halloween parties to “Harvest Festivals” thanks to this guy: the infamous former “High Priest of Satan” and member of “The Illuminati” (this was before anyone ever heard of The Illuminati): the late John Todd.

    Oh, yeah. John Todd.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Todd_%28conspiracy_theorist%29
    ww.holysmoke.org/sdhok/todd00.htm
    The Anacharsis Clootz of the Satanic Panic.
    Out-Warnkeing Mike Warnke like Glenn Beck out-Rushes Rush Limbaugh.
    “Can You Top This?”

    One urban legend is that him and Warnke came to blows backstage at Melodyland over “You Stole MY Shtick!”

    And his Apocalyptic Gnosis about Illuminatus Jimmy Carter making himself Dictator on Satan’s direct orders, Charles Manson released from prison to lead an army of convicts and bikers on Helter Skelter all over the country until nothing would be left standing south of Mason-Dixon, the only Christians left alive being those who heeded the Word of Todd and stocked survival refuges more than one tank of gas from any city or town with cleared fields of fire and survivalist arsenals with plenty of ammunition. (I’m not making that up — my writing partner was once on Todd’s mailing list and showed me the literature.) Bad Craziness.


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    @ Heather:

    Beautifully said Heather! If there is one thing that both the Devil and religious zealots hate, it’s gotta be human freedom.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My dog in this fight was the extreme anti-fantasy/anti-FRP gaming end of this, from “Turmoil in the Toybox” to “Satan’s Bid for Your Child” to Jack Chick’s “Dark Dungeons”. I don’t have the ability to get the links right now, but one Australian online gamezine did a couple essays about the Satanic Panic’s effect on FRP gamers (as “Dungeons & DEMONS(sic)” was one of the primary targets.

    Here’s the links I mentioned above.

    History of BADD, the anti-D&D branch of The Satanic Panic:
    http://ptgptb.org/0004/hist4.html
    The disappearance and suicide of Dallas Egbert III, “the kid who disappeared in the steam tunnels playing D&D”:
    Part 1 – http://ptgptb.org/0006/egbert.html
    Part 2 – http://ptgptb.org/0007/dallas2.html
    “Role-playing Games and the Christian Right”:
    http://ptgptb.org/0025/moral.html

    And the article index at Chaplain’s Corner at the Christian Gamers’ Guild:
    http://www.christian-gamers-guild.org/chaplain/index.html


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Is it just me, or does this story really revolve around Piper? The 4″ knife and the winter coat thing sounds like unnecessary detail added for dramatic effect. She keeps coming at him with things, but he perseveres nonetheless until she is “saved.” What a guy!

    I got that vibe too. I heard this story before but I guess I wasn’t paying much attention. The coat detail sounds like him reassuring us that he was being safe, because he knows how worried we were.


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    @ John R:
    I have no doubt that there is also MUCH untreated illness – physical and mental – in all parts of the world that can easily *appear* as if its symptoms are those commknly attributed to demonic possession by many credulous evangelicals. There are an awful lot of purely physical illnesses that can cause mental problems. To assume demonic possession without benefit of a medical examination… sorry, i cannot accept that. The Roman Catholic Church tries very hard to make certain that supposedly possessed people have appropriate medical (including psychiatric) workups done in order to rule out all other possible causes (and help suffering people get treatment) before calling in an exorcist.

    Now, i have NO doubt whatsoever that you’ve encountered some very difficult situations, and even that some of them might have had a demonic cause. But… I’ve also spent way, way too much time around the kinds of people who don’t think twice about jumping right into “deliverance ministry” without knowing anything about the people they’re praying for, let alone 1/10th of 1% as much as is typically determined prior to an exorcism conducted by the RCC. In pretty much all cases, the people who did this stuff assumed that there was no such thing as actual mental illness, or physiological causes for things. They even assumed that anorexia and bulimia were caused by demons.
    Needless to say, these people caused far more problems than they solved.

    I am tired of people like Morris snd Piper with their fraudulent, attention-getting, money-grubning tactics and crazy stories. Next stop: charlatans like Benny Hinn. It’s a very short step from one to the other.


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    @ John R:
    I think there are avtually plenty of “chaotic” situations right here in the US – mentally ill homeless people, for example. There are a lot of desperately poor people who need medical (including psychiatric) help right here, and some of the coulf be viwed as “possessed” by folks who’ve never seen such illnesses before.

    Perhaps it might be better to focus on finding ways to help these poor people, many of whom ended up on the streets when many mental hospitals (etc.) were shut down during the 80s and 90s… just saying.


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    @ Corbin:
    Yeah. He is making things up.

    If there really was such a young woman, why didn’t they get her to an ER? Or call an ambulance, or…???


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    John R wrote:

    The encounters I am speaking of are quite a bit more chaotic that we in the west are used to. It has been quite eye opening for someone who has a law degree and grew up in a conservative evangelical home.

    I agree with the eye-opening and the part about the non-West being spiritually chaotic. I don’t think anyone intends to dismiss demonic possession, but only to say that there *may* be treatable conditions which mimic demonic possession, or at least our conception of it. So, if one leaps to the conclusion that the problem is demonic then the problem will not be properly treated if it is not. Does that make sense? I’m really not disagreeing with the substance of your point but with your characterization of the intents and motives of the comments here.

    Keeping some particular instances in mind which I only know through secondary sources, the most prudent course is to consider other possibilities as well, for the good of the subject. I also understand that the places where demonic activity is more overt are likely to be the same places where medical and/or psychological diagnosis and interventions are not readily available. As you said, we do whatever we can do under the circumstances. In Piper’s situation, he had multiple avenues and resources and he chose to be unwise.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Does anyone else here remember the panic in the 1970s over the rock band KISS’s name supposedly standing for “Knights In Satan Service.” My mom heard that one and got concerned because my siblings were big KISS fans.

    Snopes covers that here:
    http://www.snopes.com/music/hidden/kiss.asp

    Daisy, yes I do! And AC/DC does not mean alternating current/direct current. It means Anti-Christ Death’s Child!


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    Explain this to me… Those poking holes in Pipers story are saying both that they believe in demons and that they believe medical doctors should be the ones with authoritative diagnoses. I don’t ask my mechanic to diagnose a toothache. Why are you so quick to discount the diagnosis of a man who has studied the Bible, and presumably demons, in detail? And I think it’s frankly dishonest to stuff Piper and Morris’ names together here, because they’re not talking about the same thing. Morris sees demons inside every unopened pocketbook. Piper is claiming to have seen one, in a lady he didn’t know, who, by the way, admitted being involved in occult activity to a much more dangerous degree at other times. It’s apples and oranges. I say mock Morris, he’s a provable fraud. But Piper recounting a once-in-a-lifetime story (and I heard a similar account from a local pastor who by no means sees demons everywhere – he too said it was a unique situation he’s never seen repeated) is a far far cry from the video. It seems like perhaps there’s a witch hunt for Piper; ironic 🙂
    If you have other issues with him, fine. But just maybe, he’s just telling a story about a unique event in his ministry and he’s right about it.


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    numo wrote:

    Yeah. He is making things up.

    If there really was such a young woman, why didn’t they get her to an ER? Or call an ambulance, or…???

    I listened to it again and it does fishy. But then again these are Nouthetic-ish people, so to them possession and everything about it is Christian only territory.


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    Great analysis! I’d like to add that while every state has their own criminal code, in general, a statute of limitations (SOL) applies to most crimes, meaning after a certain length of time passes the state can no longer prosecute this type of crime for any reason. This is done for practical reasons. Generally, only a few specific crimes are exempt from the SOL. Examples are murder and sex crimes against minors.

    If true, Piper’s belief that this woman can still be actively prosecuted and that the police would be interested enough to pursue her even 20 years later, seems to support that the crime/s is/are quite severe. If true, Piper needs to share what he knows with the police now. Privileged communication only applies to priests in the confessional, not pastors. His inaction on this makes him seem like a typical clergyman covering up sexual abuse of children or worse.

    Piper’s ongoing support of Mark Driscoll has been bad enough, now I have to consider if I should disregard most everything he says in the future. It’s a shame because I have previously enjoyed his writing and speaking.

    If false, then we all have a reason to be suspicious of Piper’s veracity and judgment on this and other matters. Either true or false, Piper drops in my book.


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    Ken wrote:

    What on earth has he done that you hate him so much

    Ken if you know Eagle’s story you’ll know, amongst other things, that Eagle gave a book of John Piper’s to his Mum when she had cancer, it is something he bitterly regrets because of the theology that was in it & that he has felt a lot of guilt for. I don’t doubt for a second that Eagle would help John Piper in real life, in a second, if he needed it & if he could – you need to take any hateful tone you perceive in his stuff as being about Piper’s theology. Which contains much worth hating.


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    There’s an extra second in there. Take it as emphasis.


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    To Sopy, and whomever else…

    The Bible is very clear WRT the existence of demons. But other than the fact that they exist, oppose believers, and sometimes possess people, there is little else said of them. The subject is never even addressed in the Old Testament, and apart from the Gospels and Acts, there is no mention of exorcism. And the whole tone of the New Testament is that Christ defeated Satan and all his host on the Cross, and WE HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR FROM THEM. The best tools we have against the powers of darkness are simply living our lives as Christ’s ambassadors, not fearing any toy, music, or even thrift store sweater. 😉

    And if, at some point, you *do* actually happen to encounter supernatural evil, it would seem reasonable that the same Holy Spirit Whom Christ promised us would give us words to say when called to witness, will still be there to help in that circumstance.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    In fairness to you, it may be that you have never encountered a devout Piperite.

    Mine was about 15 years ago when some younger family members became mesmerized by Piper at Wheaton. They went to work for him and study with him after graduating. They became people we did not know at all. In fact, according to them none of us knew the “true Gospel” including their parents who paid for Wheaton. (Because we were not Calvinists) That was when I started checking him out and following his trajectory. I had never seen anything like it. It was as if they had become part of a cult. They even called recognizing the 4th of July, idolatry.

    I had a hard time understanding his allure for the young. He seemed nerdy and verbose to me saying many flowery things with much passion but not a lot of real meat when you strip all the accouterments. I tried reading many of his books but they were all over the place.

    He reminds me of marketing as in how you say it and not what you actually say. He is Madagascar Vanilla instead of French Vanilla. Lots of arm waving, crying, passion. That is what sells.

    I basically came to the conclusion he was a fraud. He spent a lot of time going around the country telling people (especially women) what they should be like and their role in marriage but then he has to take time off to “work on the garden of his marriage”. Well, not everyone can afford to do that and why wasn’t what he had been teaching others for years– working for his marriage? And that is just one example.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Is it just me, or does this story really revolve around Piper?

    This is key. He has a knack for this.
    Ken wrote:

    You may not intend to, but as far as Piper is concerned you are starting to sound like an accuser of the brethren, which is ironic on a thread about demons and the satanic. What on earth has he done that you hate him so much? Piper’s theology/opinion and/or those who follow it may (or may not) deserve such censure, nobody is perfect, but I don’t see the need to attack the man himself so often and in such extreme terms, let alone make a feast out of it. I really do wish you would resist the temptation to talk like this.
    ‘He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in the darkness still.’

    Why is it “hate”? Piper has spent a lot of time and money marketing himself as a great theologian/pastor. He has invited us to analyze not only his teaching but his life since he has spent much of his time expounding upon our “roles”.

    This is the part I will never understand about celebrity Christians. They love the limelight and go to great lengths to secure it but when what they teach and do is analyzed and discussed, it is hate, sin, bitterness, etc.

    They spend a lot of time insulating themselves on stages only taking vetted questions, etc. It is unhealthy not to question them or analyze their teaching and behavior. If not, that is what cults are made of.


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    Ken, Did you ever see his video on teaching wives how to handle if their husband requested a menage a trios?

    Piper is a sick boy.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    Do you think a demon might attack a strong believer to the point of tormenting and nearly killing the person? In this case the person most certainly wasn’t seeking power from the demon. This is not something that I have a good handle on, so just wondering about your experience.

    It could, but I doubt it. Seriously doubt it. If this was the case we’d be in a constant fight with demons everyplace we go.
    As I said, I did some missions work in South Texas, Northern Mexico, and the people involved with demons were not actual believers, some claimed they were, but there is a difference in going to church and being a Christian.
    Those possessed were actively looking for demons, looking for some sort of control, as I said, power, money, sex, and trust me, younger people, both male and female can get caught up in the sexual side like you wouldn’t believe.
    But as Daisy said, bringing home a demon on a tweed jacket you bought at Goodwill like Pat Robertson claims, is bunk, if so, I’m sunk. I have a closet full of thrifted sports coats and shirts I’ve gotten from both Goodwill and the local Episcopal thrift shop…..


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    @ Joe:

    I have to disagree with you. Just because he has studied the Bible for a lifetime does not mean he is correct. Need I go into all of the theologians who have made serious errors along the way?

    I had a reason that I put Piper in with Morris. Piper holds his experience up as trustworthy because he is, after all, John Piper, who really good Christians should believe without a doubt. Because Piper has been set up as an authority on everything from a woman giving a man directions correctly to demon possession, his example will be followed by others. You hold him up as an authority as well.

    The fact he did not seek medical help first for this woman who was being restrained by college students against her will is deeply concerning. That young woman should have received medical care first and Piper’s intervention after it was determined that she was not having any sort of medical/psychiatric crisis. We don’t first cry “demon” and then backtrack. It is dangerous.

    If Piper did it this way, it is now OK for others to do it in certain circles. I believe his response was inadequate and should not be put on the Desiring God website for others to emulate. Robert Morris can now use John Piper to justify why he doesn’t have people seek medical attention for difficult behavior.

    Secondly, the woman admitted she was involved in Satanist activities after the supposed exorcism. Do you know how many people were claiming that in the 80s? Do we just accept her story as true? It sure resulted in her getting all sorts of personal attention from all sorts of people.

    Finally, if crimes were committed and they were so bad that she could be prosecuted 20 years later, those crimes should be reported. Or were they not reported because Piper and the people who restrained this woman weren’t sure if it was true? If it was heinous, it must be reported. If they are not sure, then it calls the whole incident into question.

    I don’t think this situation was handled properly and I don’t care if it is John Piper, Robert Morris, or Billy Graham. We are called to evaluate everything we see.


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    @ Anon:
    Boy are we Christians stupid at times. I remember the Illuminati scare. I think Queen Elizabeth was supposed to be a member.


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    The bible is clear: There is an unseen world around us. Satan/demons constantly barrage us with flaming arrows. I don’t think Piper’s story should be unbelievable. Greg Boyd, on the other end of the spectrum from Piper, tweeted a few months ago that he was going to deal with a gal he thought possessed.


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    @ dee:

    Dee, thank you so much for this post. I was fifteen when I got my first issue of “Cornerstone” magazine, published by JPUSA. It was my introduction to Christian artists–this amazing painter named Kimiko had actually painted a young model, and a butterfly wing background, for the cover of that issue. It was one of the most stunning arrays of color that my bland, Baptist eyes had ever seen.

    That issue also had a sad letter to the editor about Mike Warnke’s unrepentant state. It was also my introduction to the sad world of fake, lying preachers.

    After your post yesterday, I did some searching, and found the original 1991 article that exposed Mike Warnke. http://web.archive.org/web/20110629063019/http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm I found something disturbing at the end.

    Writer Jon Trott (whom I’ve greatly admired for years) talks about what restoration and repentance should look like for the charlatan Warnke. ***He specifically talks about restitution, shutting down the ministry, and reporting the crimes to the police!!!***

    Remember Al Mohler saying, “Well, 20 or 30 years ago, people JUST DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO HANDLE sex abuse scandals in the church.” Now we have evidence that is Bantha Fodder. Trott’s article and book shook the foundations of evangelical Christianity to it’s core, and ya know, in the grand scheme of things, Trott was just a writer. PEOPLE KNEW that crimes should be reported to the police. PEOPLE KNEW that preachers and leaders could lie. PEOPLE KNEW that crimes should not be covered up, but Christianity demands that restoration should take place.

    This is even more nauseating, considering that JPUSA was involved in its own sexual abuse cover-up. Hundreds of young kids were abused, and silenced, by the very organization that was calling for Warnke to make the choices it was refusing to make.

    I just wanted to bring these connections to your attention.


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    Andy wrote:

    The bible is clear: There is an unseen world around us. Satan/demons constantly barrage us with flaming arrows. I don’t think Piper’s story should be unbelievable.

    Dude, I have seen and constantly hear of people who could be poster children for Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted World”. Seeing DEMONS under every bed, in every shadow, completely paralyzed by fear that Satan’s going to slip his whoopee cushion under their butts every time they sit down. And the Spiritual Warfare types who fight back with Magickal Workings in all but name.

    Where does Discernment end and Superstition begin?


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    dee wrote:

    Boy are we Christians stupid at times. I remember the Illuminati scare. I think Queen Elizabeth was supposed to be a member.

    When she wasn’t a cannibal shapeshifting alien lizard from inside the Hollow Earth?


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    Steve Scott wrote:

    Daisy, yes I do! And AC/DC does not mean alternating current/direct current. It means Anti-Christ Death’s Child!

    And don’t forget Blue Oyster Cult.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ Heather:

    Beautifully said Heather! If there is one thing that both the Devil and religious zealots hate, it’s gotta be human freedom.

    “Enemy of my Enemy is My Friend…”


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    Dee,

    I think there are some things left to evaluate – those college students knew her. They said “this isn’t her.” Really, the diagnosis was made by those who knew her best. And do you honestly think any medical professional in the US is going to say, “yup, this is a clear cut case of demonic possession.”
    And I don’t think you’re giving fair treatment to the fact that this was a unique once in a lifetime situation. Morris’ demonic influences and what Piper is talking about aren’t even close. The only similarity is that they are both celebrity and therefore the assumption is they are sinister. I’m not a Piper apologist. He’s said some things, especially about the realm of spirits, that make me cringe, but this seems consistent with other, rare encounters I’ve heard from non-celebrity pastors with no books to sell.
    Soeaking of evaluation, the girl herself seemed to after the fact self-diagnose this as a case of possession. So everyone in the story agrees, including the girl. Now I’ve seen threads here where commenters rightly lambast people for not believing victims. But you cast doubt on the story and even her motive by insinuating she did this for attention. Really? Are you questioning the veracity of this victims story, just because you don’t like Piper? I think there’s a larger issue – one that says if Piper says it, it’s wrong. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t, like with everyone.


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    @ Joe:

    Would you care at all if we weren’t talking about Piper, but about Joe Schmoe?


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    XianJaneway wrote:

    @ Joe:

    Would you care at all if we weren’t talking about Piper, but about Joe Schmoe?

    That wouldn’t be Blasphemy.


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    Here is a question to ponder. If someone comes to the faith but has participated in a crime prior to that, shouldn’t they report the crime and make restitution? Here is what I ask whenever anyone claims they know about *Satanists* sacrifice babies or rape and kidnap. Don’t you think that you are morally obligated to report such a crime in order to bring restitution or relief to those who were harmed?

    I don’t know the answers here, but I have to think there isn’t a blanket answer that covers every scenario. Surely, it depends at least somewhat on what the crime was.

    Should every drug addict who converts confess his drug-related crimes? For me, it would depend entirely on what they were.


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    @ brgulker:

    They usually don’t arrest people for drug related crimes after 20 years. This is for something more serious like murder


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    Oh gosh, I didn’t realize that magazine ALSO had the article about Star Trek and our faith. Dee, Cornerstone festival actually had a seminar about sci fi and Christianity that year, and my 16-year-old self was there. I’m so buying this magazine!!! (Please don’t buy it before I do!) 😀


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    Xian and HUG,
    How about interacting with my thoughts instead of writing me off as a sycophant? If there was an article written that said because a pastor wore a white suit he’s gone the way of Benny Hinn I’d probably say something. Piper saying “demon” doesn’t equate him with Robert Morris. It’s not the same thing – the only correlation is the word “demon” which all the commenters have used and professed to believe in. Are we all Morrisites?


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    @ Joe:
    Dee clearly said that Piper had an obligation to report crimes to the police, which he didn’t do. No one questions Piper on that issue, because he’s JohnFreakingPiper. Regardless of who you’re discussing, that is a crime in many states. No one is equating Piper w/ Morris, but public figures are not above questioning.

    Piper also has an obligation (like we all do) to get people proper medical care. He’s not a doctor, or an EMT, and he doesn’t get to make the decision as to whether or not someone is posessed, or having a psychotic episode. Those are worthy criticisms. Do you disagree with them? If so, why?


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    @ XianJaneway:
    They are also highly authoritarian and have been labelled as a cult. There’s good material to back up that assertion, though am currenty blanking on where the expose on them was published. And this was long before the sexual abuse came to light.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Andy wrote:
    The bible is clear: There is an unseen world around us. Satan/demons constantly barrage us with flaming arrows. I don’t think Piper’s story should be unbelievable.
    Dude, I have seen and constantly hear of people who could be poster children for Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted World”. Seeing DEMONS under every bed, in every shadow, completely paralyzed by fear that Satan’s going to slip his whoopee cushion under their butts every time they sit down. And the Spiritual Warfare types who fight back with Magickal Workings in all but name.
    Where does Discernment end and Superstition begin?

    Dude, there are indeed some real wacko’s out there but a plain reading of scripture tells us that these things are. I see no reason to disbelieve what the bible teaches and warns us about regarding satan and demons.


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    numo wrote:

    @ XianJaneway:
    They are also highly authoritarian and have been labelled as a cult. There’s good material to back up that assertion, though am currenty blanking on where the expose on them was published. And this was long before the sexual abuse came to light.

    I truly, truly don’t disagree with that. I don’t have a blanket approval of their actions. I also believe anyone involved in the cover-up should be put in prison, and I don’t say that lightly. However, I can believe all those things are true, and still be thankful for the artistic and creative awakening they gave me. I never even knew Christian sci-fi fans existed before I went to Cornerstone. I’d never seen mixed-media art before. I couldn’t absorb Christian Indie music from any other source. I can believe they are sick, and accountable for their actions, and still be thankful for how God used them to transform certain areas of my life. <3


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    Joe wrote:

    Dee,
    I think there are some things left to evaluate – those college students knew her. They said “this isn’t her.” Really, the diagnosis was made by those who knew her best. And do you honestly think any medical professional in the US is going to say, “yup, this is a clear cut case of demonic possession.” . . .
    Speaking of evaluation, the girl herself seemed to after the fact self-diagnose this as a case of possession. So everyone in the story agrees, including the girl.

    First , you’ve probably heard the saying that someone with a hammer thinks the solution to every problem is the hammer. Self-diagnosing isn’t always a smart idea.

    Second, google “sleep paralysis” and read some of the terrifying “paranormal” experiences that people suffer with this. This is just one physical disorder that can be mistaken for demonic activity. Here’s one account of a woman who asked her priest about an exorcism. He suggested she first see her doctor. She was eventually diagnosed with narcolepsy. http://www.thetelegram.com/News/Local/2011-04-11/article-2417099/Taking-on-the-old-hag/1

    What Piper did was irresponsible at best. Should we wait until someone either dies or is permanently harmed by such irresponsibility before bringing attention to this?


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    numo wrote:

    Perhaps it might be better to focus on finding ways to help these poor people, many of whom ended up on the streets when many mental hospitals (etc.) were shut down during the 80s and 90s

    IIRC that started before the 1980’s. IMO it is an example of the law of unintended consequences. Patients’ rights to freedom or
    +mJoe wrote:

    I think there are some things left to evaluate – those college students knew her. They said “this isn’t her.” Really, the diagnosis was made by those who knew her best. And do you honestly think any medical professional in the US is going to say, “yup, this is a clear cut case of demonic possession.”

    Of course they will not diagnose demonic possession. What they will do is rule out a seizure disorder, a stroke, a psychiatric disorder and lots of other things. Do you seriously believe Piper is capable of ruling those conditions out? What if she was having a stroke? Piper actually would have prevented her from the care that she desperately needed *just because he is so cocksure of himself and lacks the humility and human decency to get her the best help he could.* That is the point. Piper is not Jesus who can instantly know what is going on and instantly fix it, despite what Piperites believe.

    I personally observed a person I know very well while that person was having what turned out to be a stroke. I can assure you the person I observed was not the person I knew. The person I was observing was raving and out of control. That was a stroke, not a demon, and that person received prompt medical attention. What if I had called PastorJohn instead? Could he have cast out the demon blood clot? We need to think through these things rationally or we will be forever tossed to and fro by every fad that blows across Christians, so to speak. We need to wise up and stop being so very, very overspiritualized.


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    @ Gram3:
    Obviously the combox demon has possessed me. Sorry about that.


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    Andy wrote:

    Dude, there are indeed some real wacko’s out there but a plain reading of scripture tells us that these things are. I see no reason to disbelieve what the bible teaches and warns us about regarding satan and demons.

    Does the Bible grant us infallible knowledge about what is a demonic attack and what is a physical/psychiatric problem that is treatable? Piper failed as a pastor, in this instance, because he failed to get her the best treatment possible for any or all of the above and/or demonic possession. But *he* decided it was demonic possession. How could he have possibly known that for sure? Why did he place the other students at risk as well? No one is denying demonic possession. We are denying that men like Morris should exploit the fear that people have of that. I am saying that John Piper should not exploit the woman in his story to portray himself as the Great Hero.


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    Called the police – I don’t know what she confessed. It seems it was related to her involvement in the occult. And so who knows what sort of thing that could be. I think it’s funny that here’s a potential victim of spiritual abuse of a demonic form and so many are anxious to toss her in jail. Piper is obligated to report child abuse. That’s the law. Maybe she had cruelty to animals or something in her past? We don’t know. Maybe it was tax evasion.

    And again I think you’re missing the fact that this was a one time deal. Piper isn’t seeing demons around every corner. He says he saw one once in 35 years, and spends the end of the video saying don’t immediately conclude just because something’s weird it’s demonoc. And by the way, did the end of the story lead you to believe it was a stroke or a seizure? Did she believe that? Everything in the story says Piper made the right call. And he only made it one time. He’s not doing this twice daily like some. I just think you’re missing that point and painting him in with whack jobs.
    I’ve been disappointed by Piper many times. But if he’s right on this, or at least appears to be from the evidence, why the fuss?


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    Joe wrote:

    And by the way, did the end of the story lead you to believe it was a stroke or a seizure? Did she believe that? Everything in the story says Piper made the right call. And he only made it one time.

    How could he possibly have known it was demonic possession at the point where he refused to call for medical attention? Just because she says she was possessed *way after the fact* does not mean that PastorJohn acted properly. If, as you say, this was his first encounter with the demonic, then it was even *more* arrogant for him to presume that *he* knew best how to handle it. Given his belief that it was demonic activity, why did he place the other students at risk *when he had never seen demonic activity before* and so had no basis for making a judgment about how it would play out? That is at best irresponsible. What if she had pulled out something other than a TSA-approved 4″ knife and stabbed one of them? Please think through the implications of his actions carefully without regard to persons or personalities.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    How could he possibly have known it was demonic possession at the point where he refused to call for medical attention?

    GOD had Pastor Flutterhands on direct-line speed-dial?


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    Joe wrote:

    Xian and HUG,
    How about interacting with my thoughts instead of writing me off as a sycophant?

    Because we have seen too many groupies and fanboys and yes-men clustered around abusive preacher-men, too many Harley Quinns ready and willing and eager to fight for their anointed Joker.


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    @ Joe:

    Hind sight is 20/20. Just because it seems like everything turned out okay doesn’t mean this was the best way to handle it. We are talking about having this episode on a website where people get the idea that this was the correct way to handle the event. People could be hurt by these types of actions in the future. Does Piper care about that or is the information now just an advertisement for Piper’s career?


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    ” I am saying that John Piper should not exploit the woman in his story to portray himself as the Great Hero.”

    It seems, to me at least, you’re imputing more than is there. Piper is relating a story that happened many years ago. I’m not sure how he is portraying himself as the Great Hero, worthy of capital letters, and he seems to be advising caution and great discernment. I echo the poster above me: Why the fuss?


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    Among pastors I know and trust there is the very occasional and usually not easily shared story of demon possession. Frankly, if Piper experienced something like that I wouldn’t care. What does bother me, however, is this story. Notice the subtle whiffs of danger and excitement that a normal, caring gentleman would never include in his story. For example, if the story was real, a person interested in answering the question instead of getting attention probably would leave out details like “she pulled a knife” (it reminds me of the difference between real soldiers who have seen combat and a host of valor stealing others who haven’t – the real soldiers don’t brag about the dangers they face). A gentleman wouldn’t say anything about someone being arrested if their name got out (and just how, may I ask, would mentioning a person’s name result in their arrest? Duh…). He could just as easily declined to share a name, and that would be the polite thing to do. But adding that little bit adds a “spice” of danger and intrigue. Yeah, as usual, this just comes across as more Piper As Usual.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    What if she had pulled out something other than a TSA-approved 4″ knife and stabbed one of them?

    A 4″ blade can easily kill someone. You don’t need a katana to hit an artery.


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    Forgive me if I’ve missed something, but at the end of Piper’s story: Did we find out directly from the young woman that she had been involved in the “Satan stuff”, or did *Piper* say that *she* told him about it? Do we know what the “Satan stuff” even was, like if she was involved in some kind of actual summoning rituals, or did she just admit to Piper that she had played MtG at some point?

    My point is, do we actually know anything about this woman or the outcome of the exorcism other than what Piper said?


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    Joe wrote:

    ’ve been disappointed by Piper many times. But if he’s right on this, or at least appears to be from the evidence, why the fuss?

    There is no evidence, that is precisely the problem. Had the woman been examined by doctors, then there would have been some corroboration.

    Secondly, yes, I do believe that it is highly probable that she could have been hallucinating due to a migraine or mental illness. I have seen a number of situations just like this.

    Let me give you the case in point. A friend from my childhood had a baby. 1 week later she was found on the floor of her house due to a small hemorrhage. When she awoke, she began to hallucinate and believe that Satan and his demons were attacking her. She was admitted to the hospital and then to a psychiatric ward due to an episode of post partum psychosis.

    She remains hospitalized for 6 weeks, getting psychiatric support and medication. During that time she was convinced that demons were coming after her. I know, I visited her. At about week 6, the psychosis lifted and she began to think rationally. She continued to do well after that.

    I do not believe that Piper made the right call in this instance and he has set this up as an appropriate response.


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    Andy wrote:

    Why the fuss?

    Because Piper made assumptions and did not respond appropriately to the young woman.


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    Joe wrote:

    Really, the diagnosis was made by those who knew her best.

    Do you really believe that? Are college students equipped to *diagnose* a potential medical or psychiatric problem? It would save us all much money if we could call a college student and get a diagnosis instead of going to see a trained professional.

    Joe wrote:

    Soeaking of evaluation, the girl herself seemed to after the fact self-diagnose this as a case of possession.

    You should see the numbers of people who consult my husband convinced they have heart disease and it is merely gastric reflux.

    As for medical doctors, if they can rule out everything, then the church can step in and explore the spiritual domain. Did you know that there are doctors who do believe in possession. Some serve in the Vatican to help the priest rule out the medical/psychiatric.

    I still believe that Piper mishandled the situation and since it is on his website, he has set himself up as an example of how to handle these things.


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    I believe there are real demons, and that unbelievers can be possessed and believers oppressed by them. I also believe physical and mental illness can be wrongly diagnosed and attributed to demons.

    One sorrow we’ve first hand experienced from the 70s-90s focus on Satanism: our mentally ill son had not yet been diagnosed. He fixated on Satanism and yes, became involved with it. Reliable witnesses including our pastor, unaware of what our son had done, witnessed some unbelievable things.

    To this day I still believe he did indeed become involved with Satan, and it has indeed taken a hard toll on him. I also believe his mental illness colored his desires and experiences, but know there is no way he could have faked or caused what our pastor and other reliable witnesses saw–witnesses from laymen to cops to two preachers seeing the same phenomenon at the same time in the same place. Something very objective, frightening, and unexplainable.

    All that said, I wish Christians had kept the focus back then, especially in church, on Jesus rather than Satan. They put a stumbling block in the path of a mentally ill youth. Not intentionally, I’m sure, but they did.

    For him peace will only come when physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual issues are successfully resolved.


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    dee wrote:

    At about week 6, the psychosis lifted and she began to think rationally. She continued to do well after that.

    PS I do not think that psychotropic drugs would have treated a possession.


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    @ XianJaneway:
    I do understand what you’re saying. I also was part of a cult-like xtian group where many members were artists. (Back in the 70s.) And while i get what you’re saying, for me, it doesn’t cancel out the apparent validation thst JPUSA’s existence conferred on the group that i was part of.


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    dee wrote:

    You should see the numbers of people who consult my husband convinced they have heart disease and it is merely gastric reflux.

    I’ve had gastric reflux, the latest time being a couple months ago.

    I can attest that it mimics most heart attack symptoms except for the elephant sitting on the chest. My test is to take a small dose of sodium bicarbonate; if the symptoms ease in a couple minutes (usually accompanied by a belching contest), it’s reflux.


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    Andy wrote:

    It seems, to me at least, you’re imputing more than is there.

    Take a transcript of the video and do a literary analysis of it. Who is the central character in the narrative? Who plays the part of the Great Hero who stands against the attacks brought against him and rescues the woman from the demon? Who rides to the rescue, according to Piper? Does he need help from mere physicians or even the Great Physician? No, he just needs to sit down and read randomly from the Bible for a couple of hours and withstand her attacks. He can’t even remember what he read from the Bible, but he can remember all about his thoughts surrounding a 4″ blade. Does that not seem odd to you? The blade was about him. Reading the Bible was about him. The actual texts that he read were *not* about him, and he cannot remember. Seriously? That’s why I said Great Hero.

    His approach to using the Bible was not professional, either. Where was the Magnificent Piper’s vaunted Biblical talent here? You will object to capitalizing Magnificent Piper, but that is how some fanboys and fangirls view him. He is beyond questioning. No one is beyond questioning, even the Apostle Paul, if you believe Paul.

    As for the rest, you can re-read my comments to Joe. It was pastoral negligence, and he should not be humblebragging about it. If you think it was OK for Piper to do that because he has read a lot of the Bible, then I guess you think it would be OK for someone who had read a lot about surgery to perform a procedure on you, right? Please think about the principles at issue here and not about the particular personalities.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    What if she had pulled out something other than a TSA-approved 4″ knife and stabbed one of them?
    A 4″ blade can easily kill someone. You don’t need a katana to hit an artery.

    Yes, I know that. I actually think that the TSA rule is ridiculous and arbitrary, but I do find it curious that Piper goes into such detail about the knife and the coat. He does not seem to understand that a person, and especially a demon-possessed person, with a 4″ knife could very well do considerable harm. That’s why I think he was reckless with regard to the students and put them at great risk for no good reason. That’s not how real pastors act.


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    Joe wrote:

    Piper is obligated to report child abuse. That’s the law.

    Actually, it is not the law in most states.
    He is considered “clergy” – not a professional counselor, therapist, or healthcare provider.
    He should not be dispensing healthcare or psychiatric advice without a license either.
    But “clergy” get away with that too.


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    @Joe,
    I don’t think people are anxious to toss the woman in jail. It sounds like she’s had a rough life. The concern is that Piper felt her story was credible and serious enough that law enforcement could become involved 20 years later. That suggests that her involvement was with crimes that are bad enough to be exempt from any statute of limitations (SOL) and heinous enough that his testimony would interest the police who have neither the time nor the resources to pursue lesser crimes from 20 years ago. I think readers are more concerned about the victims of these alleged crimes. Perhaps this woman’s cooperation could help bring the Satanic cult leaders to justice. Unsolved murder cases and missing persons’ cases are like a life sentence for victims’ families. If it was sexual abuse of a minor, justice can bring healing and closure to the victim as well. If this cult is still in operation her cooperation could also help prevent more abuse of minors in the future (the primary alleged crimes of Satanists). Why wasn’t Piper concerned for those future victims? That should trouble all of us Joe. Confronting her past fully could also help her heal. Because of her age at the time and the undue influence over her actions while in the cult, it’s likely she would avoid any serious consequences. But she and Piper could be helping others. And no, I by no means ever assume clergy abide by reporting laws. We have seen too many cases to the contrary.

    Could it be financial fraud or tax evasion as you suggested (both of which can also have no SOL due to them being crimes of concealment)? Not likely since she would’ve been a teenager and any amounts would likely be too small for police to pursue.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Andy wrote:
    It seems, to me at least, you’re imputing more than is there.
    Take a transcript of the video and do a literary analysis of it. Who is the central character in the narrative? Who plays the part of the Great Hero who stands against the attacks brought against him and rescues the woman from the demon? Who rides to the rescue, according to Piper? Does he need help from mere physicians or even the Great Physician? No, he just needs to sit down and read randomly from the Bible for a couple of hours and withstand her attacks. He can’t even remember what he read from the Bible, but he can remember all about his thoughts surrounding a 4″ blade. Does that not seem odd to you? The blade was about him. Reading the Bible was about him. The actual texts that he read were *not* about him, and he cannot remember. Seriously? That’s why I said Great Hero.
    His approach to using the Bible was not professional, either. Where was the Magnificent Piper’s vaunted Biblical talent here? You will object to capitalizing Magnificent Piper, but that is how some fanboys and fangirls view him. He is beyond questioning. No one is beyond questioning, even the Apostle Paul, if you believe Paul.
    As for the rest, you can re-read my comments to Joe. It was pastoral negligence, and he should not be humblebragging about it. If you think it was OK for Piper to do that because he has read a lot of the Bible, then I guess you think it would be OK for someone who had read a lot about surgery to perform a procedure on you, right? Please think about the principles at issue here and not about the particular personalities.

    Yikes. Free advice: Life seems to be much better when you don’t obsess over people you don’t like.


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    Back around 1990 a bunch of college students called me at midnight for the same reasons Mr. Piper says he was called. I went over and a small group of men and women were concerned about a friend who was acting strangely and they thought it might be demonic. I went into her room where she was laying silently on her bed, eyes open and not responding to anyone. I prayed for her, then stepped back out and told the rest of them to get some sleep. Then I went home. End of story.


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    John R wrote:

    I have personally preached in twenty three countries and have seen things you think you would only see in a horror movie. Demons are real. Jesus seemed to agree.

    I didn’t get the sense that the original blog posting was mocking the entire concept of demonic possession altogether, or everyone who believes it is true.

    Even though I teeter on the brink of agnosticism, I don’t think I can become atheist, because I’m still open to the supernatural. There is too much freaky stuff that goes on in life that cannot be explained via science or rationality.

    I think demons just might be real… the question or concern is that some Christians take that truth and make all sorts of weird or unbiblical doctrines about it.

    Like Pat Robertson teaching that demons can attach themselves to sweaters. I don’t see a lot of biblical support for that,and it just sounds kooky.

    There’s room for legitimate disagreement on this. Some Christians argue that Christians can be possessed by demons, other Christians say no to that.


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    Corbin wrote:

    Scooby Doo actually makes sense; it’s filled with ghosts and witches and monsters.

    But they almost always turned out to be humans wearing ghost and monster costumes! Then they’d get their mask pulled off at the end of the show by a police officer and would say, “I would have gotten away with my dastardly deeds if not for those meddling kids!” 🙂


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    numo wrote:

    I think there are avtually plenty of “chaotic” situations right here in the US – mentally ill homeless people, for example. There are a lot of desperately poor people who need medical (including psychiatric) help right here, and some of the coulf be viwed as “possessed” by folks who’ve never seen such illnesses before.

    And this is the way it’s gonna be (and worse) until we have a universal single-payer health care system like the rest of the civilized world. I’m just sayin’ too numes…(oops! will this get me exiled for a spell with only Jimmy for company?)


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    @ Heather:
    The way you explained that reminds me of something I read in a book by a Christian psychiatrist who was criticizing stuff like or similar to biblical counseling in his book.

    I may not be getting all the details of this right, but based on my memory of the story – he was called into the ER of a hospital one night. The police had picked up a woman (I think she was nude?) running up and down streets.

    The Christian psychiatrist/author who wrote this story said he visited with her. She was having some kind of problems, and her Christian counselor (or preacher, some Christian guy she knew) had advised her she needed good quality time alone with Jesus and the Bible. So he loaned her the use of his cabin which was out in the middle of nowhere in the woods.

    She spent time alone in the cabin and read her Bible for several days in a row, and she prayed. She started feeling more trapped, isolated, etc, and went bonkers, had panic attacks and so on. She ran out of the cabin and up and down the street to get away.

    The psychiatrist who wrote this diagnosed her with some condition (I don’t remember what it was), but he said the advice she got from the Christian guy was the direct opposite of what she needed. Being away from all human contact for a week with nothing but a Bible worsened her pre-existing condition.

    It’s really sad and scary when Christians who mean to help people who have problems end up making their problems worse with dangerous or loopy advice.


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    @ Gram3:

    Aw yes, Gram3, you hit the mark of what seemed off with Piper about himself. As humble as he theatrically acts, he draws attention to himself. Also, I do believe he was irresponsible and after so many years in ministry he should know that by now. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that his recollection of the situation is true, he should be stating that he operated ignorantly and recklessly at the time, first off, by not knowing this girl, if he wanted to pray for deliverance while the ambulance was coming, whatever, but I’ve seen a diabetics rage or confusion like they are not themselves, too, how could he know?


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    Joe wrote:

    Explain this to me… Those poking holes in Pipers story are saying both that they believe in demons and that they believe medical doctors should be the ones with authoritative diagnoses. I don’t ask my mechanic to diagnose a toothache. Why are you so quick to discount the diagnosis of a man who has studied the Bible, and presumably demons, in detail?

    Why should someone with a theology degree be the one to diagnose or treat what is possibly a mental health problem?

    That would be like me expecting my auto mechanic to treat my toothache, as you were saying.


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    Andy wrote:

    Free advice: Life seems to be much better when you don’t obsess over people you don’t like.

    Free advice: If you want to seem like a reasonable person, then make a reasonable argument. Until you do that and refrain from adolescent remarks, then we shall be reasonable in concluding that you have no desire to reason.


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    Andy wrote:

    Yikes.

    Have you never been challenged before? I know that there is a bubble in Piperdom, but really, let’s try to have an adult conversation about the issues. If you want to talk about obsessions, then Piper is certainly the bridge to that discussion. The man and his twin Grudem are obsessed with perceived threats to their masculinity which must be very brittle and fragile indeed.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I basically came to the conclusion he was a fraud. He spent a lot of time going around the country telling people (especially women) what they should be like and their role in marriage but then he has to take time off to “work on the garden of his marriage”.

    I find it interesting that some (Christian, complementarian) men think it’s their place to tell women how to be women. Would he allow women to tell him how to be a man? Probably not.

    And doesn’t the Bible say it’s up to “older women” to lead they younger women how to live life, it’s not up to the men (Titus 2:3-4), so isn’t Piper usurping women’s authority to lead and guide other women?

    (Not that I am hung up on authority myself; this is the complementarian position. They aren’t being consistent in their own views)

    Did you all see the post I did, about Acts 29 putting on Man Camp”?
    http://mancampnw.com/

    In any future posts about topics like this, you all might find this useful (or not):

    Where Working Women Are Most Common (color coded map of the United States)
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/01/06/upshot/where-working-women-are-most-common.html

    Like if C.B.M.W. is headquartered in one of the orange-colored states on that map (fewer working women)? I think yellow denotes average levels. Or is CBMW headquartered in a purple-colored state (more working women)?

    And what, if any conclusions can be drawn from that?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I can attest that it mimics most heart attack symptoms except for the elephant sitting on the chest. My test is to take a small dose of sodium bicarbonate; if the symptoms ease in a couple minutes (usually accompanied by a belching contest), it’s reflux.

    We know of a man who got such bad chest pain that they diverted a 12 hour flight. It ended up being reflux.


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    Toffeemama wrote:

    My point is, do we actually know anything about this woman or the outcome of the exorcism other than what Piper said?

    No.


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    @ Tim:

    What was the rest of the story? What did she say the next day about what was going on with her? Had there been an argument between her and the other students? Did you think it was demonic activity? Had you seen this kind of thing before or since and were your actions that evening typical of how you respond?

    Had the students been reading any of Neil Anderson’s books, by any chance?


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    Robert Morris was mentioned in the OP heading. Morris has been a guest (again) on “Life Today” this week and last.

    I’m not sure if it’s the same episode repeated, or if they’ve had him on more than once to promote the same book (they sometimes have the same guest on over 2, 3 day period). But he was on about a week ago, and he’s on that show again today.

    Morris is selling a book on money or finances or something, and that is what they are discussing on “Life Today.” Life Today is hosted by Morris’ buddy, James Robison


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    Andy wrote:

    Yikes. Free advice: Life seems to be much better when you don’t obsess over people you don’t like.

    Andy
    Please do not requote an entire lengthy comment and then respond to it. Instead, choose a pertinent passage. It helps when people are trying to follow comments.

    Also, on this blog, people try very hard to give thoughtful answers to other commenters. Gram3 did that. You, on the other hand, responded without thoughtfulness. You may disagree with us but do try to give an considerate response.


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    Heather wrote:

    Had the students been reading any of Neil Anderson’s books, by any chance?

    🙂


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    dee wrote:

    I remember the Illuminati scare. I think Queen Elizabeth was supposed to be a member.

    I’ve also heard she’s a lizard creature (David Icke) and a notorious drug trafficker (Lyndon LaRouche). It’s amazing what people will say about you when you’re famous.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    will this get me exiled for a spell with only Jimmy for company?)

    Love ya, Muff!


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    mirele wrote:

    a notorious drug trafficker (

    Now we know what she carries in her purse!


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    Daisy wrote:

    And what, if any conclusions can be drawn from that?

    From an economics standpoint, the NYT article was laughable. But that is OT. The CBMW view only works universally in circumstances where a husband can earn an income sufficient to support the family. IOW, the CBMW view does not work and cannot work anyplace where that circumstance does not exist, for whatever reason. However, the noble lads at CBMW are as undaunted by facts as they are by the realities that exist outside their artificial gender lab.

    Of course, as in any legal system, there are loopholes for the privileged. So, seminary students are granted an indulgence so that their wives can work and provide the income for the family. Because seminary students on the CBMW farm team are critical to the legacy of the old guys who fashion themselves as the ones who are saving the church from the horror and tragic consequences of equality and mutual love and respect among men and women.


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    Joe wrote:

    Soeaking of evaluation, the girl herself seemed to after the fact self-diagnose this as a case of possession.

    So far as we know. According to Piper. Did he contact her again the next day and make sure she was okay, and/or was there another person who can verify that she was okay?

    But to the first half of your post. What would it hurt for Piper and pals to have called in a medical doctor or paramedics first? When you’re in the United States, you do have access to emergency rooms and 911.

    Couldn’t they have watched to make she was okay over night, then asked her parents to get her examined by a psychiatrist to rule out mental disorders first?


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    dee wrote:

    You should see the numbers of people who consult my husband convinced they have heart disease and it is merely gastric reflux.

    Yeah, I called 911 a few years ago because I was convinced I was having a heart attack. Nope, just a bad attack of GERD.

    A couple of years ago my mother’s insurance decided it didn’t want to pay for an expensive antipsychotic and had her doctor put her on something cheaper. It was horrible as the cheaper drug did not work and mom’s paranoid schizophrenia went into full bloom. Yes, you might have thought she was possessed. Finally we were able to get her back on the expensive drug but I was so frustrated and angry with the insurance company that I volunteered to pay the $300/month (which I could ill afford) myself. I got my mom back despite those cheap insurance bean counters. *shakes head*


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    XianJaneway wrote:

    Would you care at all if we weren’t talking about Piper, but about Joe Schmoe?

    Not only do you have to take the Fame aspect into account, but some inquiring minds may think, “It depends. What is Joe Schmoe’s theology? Is Joe Schmoe a Calvinist?”


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    “If someone comes to the faith but has participated in a crime prior to that, shouldn’t they report the crime and make restitution?”

    By all means! This applies to other areas as well. I know a young woman of strong faith in Christ who does not seem to have any concern that her current “undocumented” boyfriend dodged a bullet by not being deported when authorities had him in their sights, and therefore it’s all okay. She’s only concerned that he “clean up his felony record” (details not known to me) so that he can become eligible for Obama’s amnesty. How do you clean up a felony record?? And I don’t care how repentant a believer this man may have become; he needs to take responsibility for whatever crimes he has committed and submit to whatever the justice system sees fit to hand out.


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    Dee wrote:

    They usually don’t arrest people for drug related crimes after 20 years. This is for something more serious like murder

    There was a story in the news (I believe the 1990s) about a woman on death row who had murdered someone. She became a Christian while on death row.

    Various people were trying to get her off death row, but she told them to stop their efforts. She said being forgiven by God did not abrogate her need to pay in this lifetime for what she had done. She believed she should still be put to death for what she had done.

    I can’t remember her name or the state this took place in. But that detail still stands out in my mind that she didn’t try to wiggle out of her punishment by playing the “I found God” card while in prison.


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    dee wrote:

    We know of a man who got such bad chest pain that they diverted a 12 hour flight. It ended up being reflux.

    And that is why physicians like your husband are the ones to make the call. I don’t think he would just wave off possible heart attack symptoms by assuming it is reflux. It takes someone who knows how to evaluate the situation.

    The first time I had an esophageal spasm, I thought it might be a heart attack. So, I took an aspirin and waited a few minutes to see if it remitted, thinking a heart attack would not but a spasm would. The pain began to ease after a few minutes, and it turned out to be a spasm, and I saved myself a trip to the ER. But I would *never* tell someone else to do what I did in that instance. Let the people who know what they are doing figure it out under conditions that are controlled.


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    dee wrote:

    Toffeemama wrote:

    My point is, do we actually know anything about this woman or the outcome of the exorcism other than what Piper said?

    No.

    “The girl I exorcised? She’s fine. No, I can’t tell you her name. No, you can’t talk to her…. Why? Uh….she’s taken a vow of silence.”

    Sounds legit.


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    @ Gram3:

    But then there was the incident where a hospitalist in the ER decided a member of my family for whom I was responsible was having reflux but I insisted on a cardiologist’s and pulmonologist’s opinion. Turns out it was a severe inflammation of the lungs caused by inhaling black mold. So, in this case the hospitalist was making unwarranted assumptions. The cardiologist was able to rule out cardiac issues and the pulmonologist took a careful history and, based on his experience, looked under the hood a bit more resulting in effective treatment during the course of a hospital stay of several days. That was arrogance on the part of a young doc who should have known better and which might not have turned out so well except for my Irritable Personality Disorder kicking in.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Andy wrote:
    Free advice: Life seems to be much better when you don’t obsess over people you don’t like.
    Free advice: If you want to seem like a reasonable person, then make a reasonable argument. Until you do that and refrain from adolescent remarks, then we shall be reasonable in concluding that you have no desire to reason.

    Gram, What could I possibly have responded to in your post that was reasonable? What I find frustrating about these kind of diatribes is that they are mostly, if not all, complete speculation. Piper is relating an experience that happened about 25 years ago. No one really knows, except him, Tom Steller, the other people present, or the woman herself, what transpired before or after or even if there was a discussion about having medical treatment sought for her yet, naturally, we assume the worst. Why? And you want to go into a lengthy literally analysis of his transcribed conversation? Again, yikes. I think we should rebuke the demons from this thread: Begone! Seriously, I’m not trying to be this massive smart-ass but no one knows anything other than the video that was posted. That ain’t a whole lot to go on for reasonable people.


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    Joe wrote:

    He says he saw one once in 35 years, and spends the end of the video saying don’t immediately conclude just because something’s weird it’s demonoc.

    And yet he didn’t follow his own advice there with that one particular case.

    You said

    And by the way, did the end of the story lead you to believe it was a stroke or a seizure? Did she believe that?

    It’s irrelevant what he believed, since he’s not qualified medically to make those decisions. Hence,he should have taken her to a hospital and/or phoned her parents and asked them to take her to see a psychiatrist.

    This is not a perfect analogy to the Piper story, but when I get a nasty paper cut on my hand, I go put ointment and a band-aid on it.

    I don’t start quoting Bible verses at my hand, at the cut, pray, and hope God intervenes and removes the demon of ow-ie, ow-ie, that sure hurts.

    Which I know now I’m getting into Word of Faith territory, because those guys believe you’re supposed to rebuke devils every where you go, and “speak words” over your check book and command it to be filled with money.


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      __

    Dee,

    Hey,

    I know not of the ‘validity’ of the testimony or report given expression here, but demon opression and posessions indeed can and do occur. 

    I personally have “eye” wittnessed and encountered both. 

    They are not a pretty sight.

    ATB

    Sopy

     —


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Just because she says she was possessed *way after the fact* does not mean that PastorJohn acted properly.

    Maybe she was wearing one of those demon-possessed sweaters Pat Robertson talks about? 🙂 (I kid)


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    Bridget wrote:

    Hind sight is 20/20. Just because it seems like everything turned out okay doesn’t mean this was the best way to handle it.

    As I said in a post above, we’re only getting Piper’s view of things.

    What if she was spiritually or emotionally damaged by what he did and didn’t even realize it until alter? Maybe five years after it happened, she began reflecting on his actions, and it bothered her, and somewhere out there, several years ago, she started a blog about it.

    Maybe she blogs about all the damage she’s undergone at the hands of Christians, and that is one incident which prompts her to write?


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    Andy wrote:

    hy the fuss?

    Maybe if you take all of Piper in context and not just this particular posting you’ll understand why people take issue with the man. On the upper right hand side of this blog you can do a search of his name and read other posts about other things he’s said and done.


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    @ Daisy:

    Karla Faye Tucker in TX. GWB was governor.


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    Andy wrote:

    What I find frustrating about these kind of diatribes is that they are mostly, if not all, complete speculation.

    Actually, no they are not. I have evaluated Piper’s actions, as recounted by him, and his words which appeared to be coming from Piper himself. His actions are not the actions of a responsible adult, let alone a pastor.

    The purpose of recommending a literary analysis of the transcript was so that you could see why I believe he is casting himself as the Great Hero of the narrative. You objected, and I responded to why I believe that is the case. Where have I assumed the worst, and how could you possibly know that?

    Is the way Piper handled this the way you believe a pastor should handle a situation like this? How about if the woman were your daughter? Over to you.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    That’s why I think he was reckless with regard to the students and put them at great risk for no good reason.

    He would have been reckless indeed, but fortunately this incident never occurred. I watched the video again a couple more times, and I feel certain he just made the whole thing up.


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    When these guys hop up and talk about demons and demon possession, I wonder how much is true and how much is trying to control or fill their cofers?
    I think we are missing the story above folks….it’s all about money…give me money, and you ain’t demon possessed. It’s like a shakedown.


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    Andy wrote:

    Seriously, I’m not trying to be this massive smart-ass but no one knows anything other than the video that was posted. That ain’t a whole lot to go on for reasonable people.

    Nobody is accusing you of being massive, and I know that we don’t know more than the video. That’s why my remarks were about the content of the video. Because I don’t know more than the video! Presumably neither do you. So what?

    Exactly what about my analysis is unreasonable? I can interact with you *reasonably* if you will cite specifics.


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    Daisy wrote:

    What would it hurt for Piper and pals to have called in a medical doctor or paramedics first? When you’re in the United States, you do have access to emergency rooms and 911.
    Couldn’t they have watched to make she was okay over night, then asked her parents to get her examined by a psychiatrist to rule out mental disorders first?

    Excellent advice that should be followed by everyone.


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    @ Sopwith:

    I do believe in demons, just like I believe in mental illness. I am impressed with the procedures followed by the Vatican when it comes to this issue.

    The person thought to be possessed must first be evaluated by medical doctors to do a full battery of medical and psychiatric testing. After all else fails, then they begin to question if they are dealing with a true demonic incident.

    However, it is overseen by several clerics who have extensive training in the area. Frankly, in this instance, the RCC is doing a better job than our crowd.


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    roebuck wrote:

    I feel certain he just made the whole thing up.

    Could be. What I am certain about is that Piper is not the one to call with this kind of situation. Or a marital situation, either. Grasping to find something to call Piper about…


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    @ K.D.:
    I certainly see this possibility when it comes to Robert Morris. Piper is a different duck. He lives a simple life. His currency is the absolute devotion to Reformed theology, authoritarianism, and complementarianism.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    I agree, so i guess we’ll have each other for company. 😉


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    Andy wrote:

    What could I possibly have responded to in your post that was reasonable?

    Are you that devoted that you cannot see anything reasonable. i like Gram3. She is a thoughtful woman.

    When you post a video on a subject as controversial as demon possession, you darn well better be explicitly clear. Piper knows how to do that. He decided not to. He should have remained silent as opposed to giving little to no careful description of the event.

    Andy wrote:

    That ain’t a whole lot to go on for reasonable people.

    It must bring you comfort to declare yourself as one of the *reasonable* ones.


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    @ numo:
    I love Numo as well!


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    Andy wrote:

    Yikes. Free advice: Life seems to be much better when you don’t obsess over people you don’t like.

    Why are you avoiding responding to the substance of her points in that post?


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    dee wrote:

    i like Gram3. She is a thoughtful woman.

    Thanks, Dee. Pretty sure there are some who might beg to differ. 😉 You’ve seen a number of my interactions with young men who seem to me to be taken with idolatry of people, though I am certain they do not intend to be. They think I am angry with them, but any barking I do is to wake them up from the trance, get them to think instead of react, and turn away from humans to the Savior and the words he has given us.


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    @ Gram3:
    Gram3, I’ve been there; even drove myself to the ER and thankfully, it turned out to be acid reflux. Very scary, though, especially since wome rarely get the “-elephant on the chest” pain that men do. Heart disesase in women *definitely* needs to be studied more, and handled far better than is usually the case on the grassroots level, as far as prevention, detection and treatment.

    For the commenter who mentioned sleep paralysis: so true! Happened to me whrn i was 16, and though i didn’t believe in demons, i was sure that the life was being crushed out of me by something like the demons/devils sern in medieval paintings that depict the Last Judgement. Then… i woke up. It was terrifying *until* my brain and body finally got back into synch.


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    @ dee:
    Aw shucks, Dee – thsnks so much!


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    @ dee:
    Aw shuckd – thanks, Dee!

    * Note: could you please delete the “comments” (accidental) that are in the mod queue? They were literally the fault of my tablet’s keyboard!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Grasping to find something to call Piper about…

    Hand-fluttering lessons?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    From an economics standpoint, the NYT article was laughable. But that is OT. The CBMW view only works universally in circumstances where a husband can earn an income sufficient to support the family. IOW, the CBMW view does not work and cannot work anyplace where that circumstance does not exist, for whatever reason.

    Most of their views also do not work for, nor even take into consideration, women such as myself who never marry and who never have children. They also neglect the divorced and the widows.

    They assume all or most women have husbands, and the the husband is still alive, in addition to assuming he works a job that pays enough so that the wife can be a SAHM.

    The assumptions that undergird their gender views are very, very narrow. But they keep wanting to claim their views are based on the Bible – which makes me laugh or want to throw up. Jesus and Paul acknowledged the realities of widows, singles, and the divorced far more often than they do.


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    @ dee:
    Dee – glad your friend is ok, though so sorry to hear whst she went through. Agree 100% with your points, as well as your usingnthis particular example.

    Funny how there’s no manual of diagnostic standards for supposed possesdion, too. [/irony]


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    Andy wrote:

    but no one knows anything other than the video that was posted

    And which is precisely the point. It shouldn’t have been posted to start with.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Karla Faye Tucker in TX. GWB was governor.

    That name looks familiar, it may be her I was thinking about.


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    roebuck wrote:

    Hand-fluttering lessons?

    I don’t get the purpose of all the “acting out” gestures which strike me as more typical of adolescent girls. Piper or Mahaney both do that and I don’t get it. And then you have David Platt who mimics…Mahaney’s odd……cadence. Homiletics ain’t what it used to be.

    OT: I miss Nick and Nancy, on this thread especially. Which reminds me of Nick and Nora who might also have something to contribute…


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy
    Regarding John Piper having Fluttering Hands.

    Please also work this into your future repertoire of Piper references:
    😆 Jazz Hands
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuPSIbABYVU

    “Jazz Hands by John Jacobson and Mac Huff”
    Travel Hands, Rain Hands, Jaaazzzz Hands! Point left, point right, wave ’em in the hands and wave them in the sky!


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    @ Gram3:
    Hmm… i take it you mean Willian Powell and Myrna Loy, not the pj manufacturers? 😉


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    Andy wrote:

    but no one knows anything other than the video that was posted. That ain’t a whole lot to go on for reasonable people.

    So why post the video without more information? People are making comments and wondering about what Piper has on his website. Why are people who question his video in the wrong for making observations about what Piper did? Piper can clear it all up by being specific about what he thinks now about how he handled the situation.

    People are not obligated to believe that everything Piper does is unquestionable. Questioning Piper’s actions is more “reasonable” than not questioning them. Never questioning Piper is the unreasonable position to take IMO.


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    “That ain’t a whole lot to go on for reasonable people.”

    This is too funny! Compared to twitter this Piper quote is a novel.

    Piper thinks his tweets are enough for reasonable people, so I don’t feel real bad for analysing the quote.


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    __

    Dee,

    Hey,

    In one encounter, the individual had entered the church lobby one Sunday morning after the service had started – screaming obscenities at the top of their lungs. The attending elders of the church were bewildered and paralyzed with fear. I simply got up, without hesitation, approached the distressed person and told the demon(s) possessing this individual to shut up in the name of Jesus, and come out ; which it / they did. I then asked this individual outside and lead them to Christ, and prayed for this person as well, and sent them on their way, – to the absolute astonishment of church elders that witnessed the event.

    Unfortunately, NO medical, legal, law enforcement official assisted me, although they were surely in attendance that one Sunday morning.

    (sadface)

    But, Jesus was there to welcome His new comer to His kingdom, all the same.

    ***

    Dee, not everyone abuses the scriptures, for personal gain. 
    Some get it right and even find ‘approval’ by the Spirit of God…

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Imagine that? 

    Blessings!

    Sopy


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    @ dee:
    @ Bridget:

    Didn’t see your response before I posted mine. Guess we have the same idea about reasonableness 😉


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    Gram3 wrote:

    roebuck wrote:
    Hand-fluttering lessons?
    I don’t get the purpose of all the “acting out” gestures which strike me as more typical of adolescent girls. Piper or Mahaney both do that and I don’t get it. And then you have David Platt who mimics…Mahaney’s odd……cadence. Homiletics ain’t what it used to be.
    OT: I miss Nick and Nancy, on this thread especially. Which reminds me of Nick and Nora who might also have something to contribute…

    Ah, the Thin Man!

    Yes, I think there has always been a penchant for odd cadences is the pastor business.


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    Heather wrote:

    What was the rest of the story?

    You got me. Apparently she went home from the university for a while to rest up, but I don’t think anyone thought there was demonic activity going on any more. All I did was pray for God’s peace for her and tell the others to go to bed.


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    From what I understand, Piper is not explicitly anti-psychology in a theoretical sense, but practically he leans heavily towards the Nouthetic movement. This may help explain his approach to the young woman in his anecdote:

    – assess situation
    – do not call licensed mental health professionals
    – read Bible verses at her
    – once she “feels better,” assign further Bible verses for her to read


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    Three accounts of people interacting with someone who is apparently possessed.

    Three things I notice:
    “She read all Romans 8. And that’s when we left her,”
    “I prayed for her, then stepped back out and told the rest of them to get some sleep. Then I went home.”
    “I then asked this individual outside and lead them to Christ, and prayed for this person as well, and sent them on their way”

    At the end of each story is “then we walked away”. I have been in situations where life and death have been there right in front of me. Just physical life/death. And it is extremely hard to just walk away. Perhaps that’s just me. I have also been with people who have just been born again into the Kingdom of God and it is hallowed ground! The mere inconveniences of hunger and tiredness vanish. Something supernatural is going on and angels are rejoicing! I don’t just walk away!

    So I am taking my experience and I am applying it to these accounts. And something rings hollow. I don’t want to doubt, but I do. But more than that, how do I, we, act when we are in this situation? I will trust the Holy Spirit to give the the words to speak. I will be able to evaluate whether the police or EMT’s need to be involved. Or someone more capable than me. Or bigger.

    But if a new spiritual life, or a struggling one still seeking, can be helped, how to we do it? I really think I need to hear a truly pastoral person talk about this.


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    dee wrote:

    Do you really believe that? Are college students equipped to *diagnose* a potential medical or psychiatric problem?

    As a recent graduate, I can assure you that college students, in general, are total goobers. Usually well-intentioned but sorely lacking in life experience.
    Tim wrote:

    I went into her room where she was laying silently on her bed, eyes open and not responding to anyone. I prayed for her, then stepped back out and told the rest of them to get some sleep. Then I went home. End of story.

    You just left? That sounds like it might have been a pretty serious medical problem, and you just left her there? People get exposed to all sorts of dangers in college–there are plenty of opportunities for excessive drinking and experimentation with drugs, not to mention that it’s the age where schizophrenia tends to emerge, and the simple stress of moving into a totally new environment with new people and challenges. The least you could do would be contacting someone (like an RA) who would know channels to go through, or of course an ambulance.
    One of my greatest regrets from college was not getting up to check on my roommate when he stumbled into the room extremely drunk one night. The next morning I saw he’d vomited on the pillow beside him–if he’d been on his back he could have died.

    On the ‘possession-like symptoms’ front, there is a drug known as phenazepam which is technically legal to purchase in the US since nobody got around to scheduling it. At small doses it acts as a sedative. At just-slightly-higher-than-the-right-amount, the user blacks out for a week, acting crazy in the mean time, and often ruins their life. Stories of behavior under its influence are really disturbing. But this isn’t a demon in the literal sense, it’s just a very nasty chemical used by people without much wisdom.


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    @ Tim:

    Thanks for this reply. I wrote my last comment before reading this, so perhaps my point above was made too strongly. There is a time to walk away, to rest, to cease struggling and trying to persuade, etc. Knowing what else to do with a person in an apparent spiritual struggle, what is wise and sensible for all involved, that is what I wonder about.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Life Today is hosted by Morris’ buddy, James Robison

    These guys are all “good ol’ boy” BFFs.
    Here’s Driscoll last year on Robision’s “Life Today” TV show:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78Nq93-yGr4

    If we don’t repent, we’re hypocrites…
    — Mark Driscoll on “Life Today” with James Robison

    And if you don’t want to repent, resign as pastor before your church can place you under discipline, and go to Texas.


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    @ Mr.H:

    The Bible being used like a talisman?


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    numo wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Hmm… i take it you mean Willian Powell and Myrna Loy, not the pj manufacturers?

    Obviously I need to get out more because I never heard of the pj mfrs. Honestly one does not want to put these three thoughts in the same thought balloon or even any two: John Piper, Gram3, pjs. Not. Ever.


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    __

    Heather,

    After the encounter, the individual got in his pov and left. this was not even my church where this occured.

    …what ever proble you have, it is not with me.

    I did something when no one else did.

    (tears)

    ATB

    Sopy


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    @ Gram3:
    LOLZ. Target carries Nick & Nora pjs, under some kind of licensing agreement. I have been getting them since 2006.


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    @ Sopwith:
    Sopy, i wonder if this person responded to you the way they did because you took the time and initiative to care for/about them? By no means do i have any foubts about your kindness and good intentions! (Though my gut feeling is that this was someone with serious mental health issues.)

    You certainly showed a wilingness to engage with this person *as* a person, rather than being fearful or appalled or looking down on them.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Ken, Did you ever see his video on teaching wives how to handle if their husband requested a menage a trios?

    Piper is a sick boy.

    Can you provide a link to the video or summarize Piper’s teaching to the wives?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    @ Mr.H:
    The Bible being used like a talisman?

    It’s called Bibliomancy, “Book Magic”.

    Bible as grimoire of unconnected one-verse verbal-component spells.


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    @ Joe2:
    Check the drop-down menu on this blog. You’ll find the links in various posts on Piper, including videos.


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    @ Sopwith:
    Sopy, everything you have ever said on TWW has been gracious and thoughtful and full of compassion for others.
    Forgive me for implying that any of that was not true of you in this situation.


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    Eeyore wrote:

    To Sopy, and whomever else…

    And if, at some point, you *do* actually happen to encounter supernatural evil, it would seem reasonable that the same Holy Spirit Whom Christ promised us would give us words to say when called to witness, will still be there to help in that circumstance.

    How does anyone know that this is not exactly what happened?


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    @ Heather: what gets me is that it could have been me… I have night terrors. Just the other night I was screaming and walking around the room in my sleep. In college my roommate says I would sit up straight in my bed and mumble nonsensical stuff. Was I demon possessed? No, i sleep walk and have night terrors… Gah! I can’t imagine the horror of waking up with someone over me reasons bible verses casting out a ‘demon’. It would be humiliating to say the least….


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    @ Joe:

    Just passing through as I do once in a while. For what it’s worth, I agree with your comments here. I have pretty fresh eyes- I know Pipers name but not much about him. I watched the video and am stunned that some have stated as fact that it’s fabricated. Fair points have been made about judgement as armchair quarterbacks, but any person who has a spiritual life in Christ knows that there is much that happens that can be pulled apart and mocked in any testimony. I also have to wonder why this focus on an account of an openly admitted one time event 20 years ago. Seems like digging around in vain to me. Bless you.


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    Jackie wrote:

    any person who has a spiritual life in Christ knows that there is much that happens that can be pulled apart and mocked in any testimony. I also have to wonder why this focus on an account of an openly admitted one time event 20 years ago.

    Certainly my life has mockable events. But I don’t hold myself out as an example of uber-Christianity, either. I don’t tweet my wisdom to thousands of followers. In short, the damage I can do to the church and individuals is limited. Thankfully. That is not the case with Piper, and that is why this is not just fishing around for something to pin on him. It is a pattern with him, and his arrogance simply needs to stop. The idolatry of Piper and the men like him simply needs to stop. He is not Jesus. He’s not even a particularly good Bible teacher. He’s just a human being like the rest of us. Until he starts acting responsibly on any number of issues, I hope the Deebs keep pointing out his folly lest others emulate it.


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    @ Gram3:

    I appreciate your thoughts.
    I guess the fact that he is “a human being like the rest of us” is exactly what struck me. If anyone holds him higher than that- they are the ones who are mistaken. Nothing he said in this video warrants such harsh criticism in my view. He read the bible to her. Sitting in my living room, I say I would have called for help as people have said. But I wasn’t there. And I’m not him.

    I once read from the bible while visiting someone who was in a coma. The person woke within minutes from the coma. When his family was gathered into the room, I didn’t say a word. In fact, the only person until now who knew was a person in the room when it happened. We were honestly stunned. Why did I read the bible? I didn’t know what else to do and I had immense faith. No, he wasn’t in danger, etc… Obvious differences, but it’s what came to mind when I saw the criticism. He shared it because he was asked.

    As far as you being of little influence, compared to the likes of Piper… Don’t be mistaken. We all serve somebody or something every minute. And we all ripple out one way or another.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    In fairness to you, it may be that you have never encountered a devout Piperite. I don’t know any Catholics who revere the Pope more than Piperites revere Piper. Maybe it’s an American thing, but it is a very real thing. Piper and Grudem get everything straight from God’s mouth, so don’t even think about questioning either of them.

    So true. I know people who revere Piper and Grudem as infallible. If Piper said it, it’s as good as scripture. Both Piper and Grudem are cited often in the “Apologetics” speech category at Christian homeschool forensics competitions — their words, their views, are uncontestable (is that a word?) in that setting.

    I never saw Grudem’s list of 80-some restrictions on women’s “roles” but I read enough commentary about them, and quotes from the list, to understand that he is pharisaically adding man’s rules to God’s word, at least in regard to women. And if in one area, perhaps in other areas as well?

    I don’t know enough about Piper to express an opinion on his views and his teachings, but I do have concern when I hear someone express complete confidence in him, his pronouncements, and his writings. Even the apostles were occasionally wrong. (I seem to remember Paul rebuking Peter at some point…)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Boy are we Christians stupid at times. I remember the Illuminati scare. I think Queen Elizabeth was supposed to be a member.

    When she wasn’t a cannibal shapeshifting alien lizard from inside the Hollow Earth?

    No, wait, I think I saw that Dr. Who episode…


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    Joe wrote:

    Dee,
    I think there are some things left to evaluate – those college students knew her. They said “this isn’t her.” Really, the diagnosis was made by those who knew her best. And do you honestly think any medical professional in the US is going to say, “yup, this is a clear cut case of demonic possession.”
    And I don’t think you’re giving fair treatment to the fact that this was a unique once in a lifetime situation. Morris’ demonic influences and what Piper is talking about aren’t even close. The only similarity is that they are both celebrity and therefore the assumption is they are sinister. I’m not a Piper apologist. He’s said some things, especially about the realm of spirits, that make me cringe, but this seems consistent with other, rare encounters I’ve heard from non-celebrity pastors with no books to sell.
    Soeaking of evaluation, the girl herself seemed to after the fact self-diagnose this as a case of possession. So everyone in the story agrees, including the girl. Now I’ve seen threads here where commenters rightly lambast people for not believing victims. But you cast doubt on the story and even her motive by insinuating she did this for attention. Really? Are you questioning the veracity of this victims story, just because you don’t like Piper? I think there’s a larger issue – one that says if Piper says it, it’s wrong. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn’t, like with everyone.

    Y’know, something struck me while reading this comment. I remember listening to a sensational nation-wide “christian” radio show in the early 90s where the host was constantly talking about demons and oppression and possession and I don’t remember what all, but I do remember he was great at whipping up the listeners and callers-in. I suspect the more dramatic the stories, the higher the level of pledges and donations poured in. (Larson, Larsen, Bob Larson?)

    In retrospect, I can’t believe we listened and fell for those stories, were addicted to daily doses of that sensationalism that tickled our ears. (It was so exciting to hear REAL EXAMPLES of how Christ was WINNING the BATTLE.) But it makes me wonder, is airing this sensational anecdote a ploy to stir up the listeners’ senses? (Perhaps it’s unworthy of me to wonder if Piper’s ministry is hurting for donations.)


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    dee wrote:

    Heather wrote:

    Had the students been reading any of Neil Anderson’s books, by any chance?

    🙂

    I lost two friendships over “Pigs in the Parlour” and Derek Prince. I couldn’t understand the need for hysteria and they cut me off as not spiritual enough, or something like that.


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    @ refugee:

    “But it makes me wonder, is airing this sensational anecdote a ploy to stir up the listeners’ senses?”

    Refugee, I quoted this line because I honestly think this is wise- but it works both ways if we are honest. (Myself included) Seeing that this interview is over a year old, maybe we are having our ears tickled here, now. Maybe we love to see, hear and say how messed up our brothers are. Or maybe as has been said, they are so utterly dangerous and abusive, they need to be stopped above all else. ?


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    dee wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    I certainly see this possibility when it comes to Robert Morris. Piper is a different duck. He lives a simple life. His currency is the absolute devotion to Reformed theology, authoritarianism, and complementarianism.

    And that part with Piper is even spookier. That said, I seriosuly doubt he’d know demon possession if it was to bite him on the rear….


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    Jackie wrote:

    eeing that this interview is over a year old, maybe we are having our ears tickled here, now

    I know exactly why I found this post by Piper. I was reading some stuff about Morris and some others and what they believed about demons. I got to thinking about a group of people who pride themselves on being careful theological pastors-the Neo Calvinists. The undisputed leader of this group is John Piper.

    So, I decided to see if John Piper had written anything on demon exorcism. This article came up immediately. Try it. It was only a year old and on the Desiring God which made me realize that he still endorses his approach.

    As for the *ears tickled* phrase, it is frustrating to me that looking at issues as well as how pastors and theologians handle these issues could be considered indulgent. We are to be Berean’s and carefully explore issues of theology.

    Also, if I had found that he had handled it in a manner that was more careful, I would have posted that as well. But, if it was positive, would I have been accused of having my *ears tickled?* Couldn’t looking for only positives be having one’s ears tickled as well? Isn’t that why Driscoll and others remained in their position for so long? The seminary professors and pastors got their *ears tickled* because they only saw the positives?


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    refugee wrote:

    I lost two friendships over “Pigs in the Parlour” and Derek Prince

    This happens in any group in which absolute devotion is necessary to the psyche of those involved. Some people cannot bear to hear that their beloved pastor, etc. is a real human being and not perfect. This holds true for Prince, Piper, Driscoll Mahaney and, of course, Amway!


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    refugee wrote:

    In retrospect, I can’t believe we listened and fell for those stories, were addicted to daily doses of that sensationalism that tickled our ears. (It was so exciting to hear REAL EXAMPLES of how Christ was WINNING the BATTLE.

    You beat me to the punch. Great comment.


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    refugee wrote:

    I never saw Grudem’s list of 80-some restrictions on women’s “roles” but I read enough commentary about them, and quotes from the list, to understand that he is pharisaically adding man’s rules to God’s word, at least in regard to women. And if in one area, perhaps in other areas as well?

    We wrote about this.
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/12/03/wayne-grudem-83-biblical-rules-for-gospel-women/


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    Angelacfr wrote:

    I have night terrors. Just the other night I was screaming and walking around the room in my sleep. In college my roommate says I would sit up straight in my bed and mumble nonsensical stuff. Was I demon possessed? No,

    Thank you for a great example of a physiological issue that some demon watchers could mistake for something else.


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    Jackie wrote:

    How does anyone know that this is not exactly what happened?

    In the medical world there is a saying that if it looks like a horse and it neighs, first consider that it is a horse and not Big Foot. In other words, first rule out the likely causes before going after the unusual. Can you imagine going to a doctor with a rash and they decide to do a full body scan and exploratory surgery in case the rash is a bodily reaction to a rare cancer? Wouldn’t they first try a little antihistamine?

    Even Piper said demon possession is rare so it should not be our default position.


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    @ Tim:
    Also, eyes can be open during various stages of sleep. My son used to sleep with his eyes half open when he was younger. It used to freak me out but the pediatrician said it was normal.


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    Jackie wrote:

    Nothing he said in this video warrants such harsh criticism in my view. He read the bible to her. Sitting in my living room, I say I would have called for help as people have said. But I wasn’t there. And I’m not him.

    It is not so much what he did, though we might quibble about that, but what he did *not* do. He *presumed* that he could handle a situation for which he himself said he did not have experience. That is why I call it arrogant and dangerous and why his folly needs to be exposed and carefully and responsibly critiqued. The hospitalist I mentioned above in a comment was arrogant, and he was dressed down semi-publicly by the pulmonologist who had much more experience and was very upset that a patient with a life-threatening condition was about to be sent home by the hospitalist. The hospitalist had heard a fact–that many people with heart attack symptoms really have reflux–and made it into a *rule* rather than keeping that knowledge in its proper category. That is very dangerous, and that is what Piper is doing.

    The lesson that his fanboys and fangirls might easily draw is that reading the Bible is sufficient to handle possession or what seems like possession but might not be. He could not possibly have known which it was, and he demonstrated his arrogance by not calling for whatever kind of help was available, and further, by placing the other students at risk. That is negligent at best, and we should not want to encourage that kind of thinking.

    Not sure what you mean about the significance of the video being a year old. It is still live on the DG site, so I assume that means that Piper still affirms his approach.


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    Jackie wrote:

    Nothing he said in this video warrants such harsh criticism in my view.

    If a woman was being restrained, then it is concerning. If they were afraid for her well being, they should have called 911.

    As for harsh criticism, it is normal and right to assess how someone responded in a particular situation. Did you know they do this in hospitals on a weekly basis?

    They review the care of patients by the staff-looking at what could be done batter, Every doctor and nurse sits through these sorts of medical rounds. It is not easy having your work critiqued but it provides insights into how things could have been done better.


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    refugee wrote:

    I think I saw that Dr. Who episode…

    Dr Who gives meaning to many situations!


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    TedS. wrote:

    And if you don’t want to repent, resign as pastor before your church can place you under discipline, and go to Texas.

    Besides, it is much cooler dealing with demon trials! That’s what real men do.


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    @ dee:

    Fair analogy – we do that in my field as well. Usually though, our critique is in looking at our own handling of a situation and what we could have done better/differently and not the general public critiquing us. But, it is fair to say that if they post it for public consumption, then response and critique is helpful since it then falls into hands who could base decisions on that input.


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    Not sure if this is on-topic at all, but I came across this article about why young men and some young women are caught up in the ISIS movement. IMO they dynamic, though not the violent application, makes some sense for explaining why young men and women give up their freedom to serve the purposes of others who want to rule and why they can’t see through the desire of ISIS to use them:

    http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-06/the-glamour-of-islamic-state

    Before I get responses saying I’m comparing ISIS to YRR, I am not. I am comparing the rationales for what appears to me to be irrational behavior–giving up our freedom in Christ for rules. Not being able to discern that the Morrises of this world are not trying to protect people from demons but are using people for their own purposes. Understanding that is the extent of the purpose of linking this.


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    This discussion on casting out demons has reminded me of a series that WTH has on his site. He has posted excerpts and critiqued Driscoll’s Spiritual Warfare series which was teaching given to Mars Hill leaders. It is frightening and bizarre given the circumstances going on around MH at the time it was given.

    I wondered why none of the leaders listening to the teachings at MH questioned any of it. Then I realized that, like SGM, Driscoll gathered leaders from the “newly converted and young in the faith” men who didn’t have the experience (or character requirements) that scripture suggests are wise for leaders. How could young leaders refute what Driscoll was saying, and why would they when it sounded so glamerous? This ties in to the article Gram3 posted above.

    We know for a fact that Driscoll got rid of the older men who did question his teachings and ideas. According to his Spiritual Warfare series, people who question leaders might just be under demonic influence. Teach this to the young ones and you can easily control everything. Driscoll is a dangerous Man as far as I’m concerned. Morris is like him in this regard. Piper is a different stripe but a similar color. Afterall, Piper likes Driscoll’s theology. Many of these leaders seem to enjoy feeding off of each other’s celebrity for how ever long it helps them out . . . until it fades anyway. I don’t consider these three pastors. A Celebrity isn’t a pastor.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I wondered why none of the leaders listening to the teachings at MH questioned any of it. Then I realized that, like SGM, Driscoll gathered leaders from the “newly converted and young in the faith” men who didn’t have the experience (or character requirements) that scripture suggests are wise for leaders.

    He gathered Driscolljugend and promoted them into positions of power under him.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Before I get responses saying I’m comparing ISIS to YRR, I am not.

    You compare because there are similar underlying dynamics at work.

    For 80 years or so, the Great Righteous Movement That Would Change The World Forever was Soviet Communism (Marxism-Leninism). And you saw (usually well-off) youth going Red like these go ISIS, for much the same reasons. “I’m part of The Movement! I’m Important!”

    And for 10-15 years in a Germany wrecked by the aftermath of WW1, the Movement was Naziism. Naziism didn’t have quite the appeal to young idealists as Communism, but the same dynamic was in play. Best expressed by a line in the Seventies TV minseries “Holocaust”, where one character comments to another (an SS captain involved in The Final Solution) outside Babi Yar: “Look at you now! Changing the face of Europe!”


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Not sure if this is on-topic at all, but I came across this article about why young men and some young women are caught up in the ISIS movement. IMO they dynamic, though not the violent application, makes some sense for explaining why young men and women give up their freedom to serve the purposes of others who want to rule and why they can’t see through the desire of ISIS to use them:

    BINGO! Here’s the money quote:

    The religious extremism that separates Islamic State from mainstream Muslim life is itself part of the thrill. “Those drawn towards more radical interpretations of Islam,” Maher wrote for New Statesmen, “have dismissed older members of their communities as cowards or religious sell-outs.”

    The result is a 21st-century Islamic version of the medieval Christian Crusades. Islamic State promises ordinary men adventure, fellowship and religious significance …

    And THAT is the same dynamic you find powering the YRR, IFB, Quiverfull, Reconstructionism, Acquire the Fire, Teen Mania, Gothardites, and all these “More Christian/Muslim Than Thou” groups. “WE Have THE One True Way (unlike ALL you Lukewarm Apostates — Have Fun When Christ Spews Thee Out Of His Mouth!).”


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    dee wrote:

    Even Piper said demon possession is rare so it should not be our default position.

    It may be rare (like any paranormal event), but Becoming The Big Bad Demon-Fighter makes you Important. GAWD’s Speshul Spiritual Warrior, well above all those Lukewarm Apostates. (See my two previous comments re Gram3 and being caught up in the ISIS movement.)


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    dee wrote:

    refugee wrote:
    I lost two friendships over “Pigs in the Parlour” and Derek Prince
    This happens in any group in which absolute devotion is necessary to the psyche of those involved. Some people cannot bear to hear that their beloved pastor, etc. is a real human being and not perfect. This holds true for Prince, Piper, Driscoll Mahaney and, of course, Amway!

    And Apple Macintosh. (How’s that for Much Ado about Very Little?) I lost at least two friendships when I switched my home system from a Mac to a Windows. It was like having a Fatwa proclaimed against me — “APPLE AKBAR!”


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    dee wrote:

    @ Tim:
    Also, eyes can be open during various stages of sleep. My son used to sleep with his eyes half open when he was younger. It used to freak me out but the pediatrician said it was normal.

    That would be unsettling, to say the least, Dee.

    Re the young college woman – A commenter above felt free for some reason to call me out as irresponsible for leaving. I probably should have specified that I was writing three short lines about something that actually took about 90 minutes, and when I left there were two friends of hers who were going to sit up with her through the night. But I didn’t because I didn’t expect to be second guessed by a stranger on the ‘net. 😉

    Cheers,
    Tim


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    refugee wrote:

    I suspect the more dramatic the stories, the higher the level of pledges and donations poured in. (Larson, Larsen, Bob Larson?)

    Know where I first heard of Bob Larson?
    In Donna Kossy’s Kooks Magazine.
    He was described in the article “Sell Your Soul to Rock & Roll” as “Jack Chick’s Anti-Rock Music Hatchetman”.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Certainly my life has mockable events. But I don’t hold myself out as an example of uber-Christianity, either. I don’t tweet my wisdom to thousands of followers.

    Tweets such as how such-and-such a disaster was God Punishing Us for Unpardonable (usually sexual) Sin Du Jour.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    That’s why I think he was reckless with regard to the students and put them at great risk for no good reason.

    Absolutely. However, to be completely honest, I have no reason to believe this story is true.


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    Tim wrote:

    Then I went home. End of story.

    Tim, Tim, Tim. You really need to work on your marketing skills. I mean, really, how do you expect to make a video out of that?


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    Tim wrote:

    But I didn’t because I didn’t expect to be second guessed by a stranger on the ‘net.
    Cheers,
    Tim

    That puts you and Piper in the same boat for a short ride 😉 You seem to be able and willing to answer for yourself when questioned 🙂


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    I used to be heavily invested in the idea of demon possession (even for Christians) thanks to the works of John Wimber , Charles Kraft, and many other authors who were endorsed by JI Packer.

    Today I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as demons. Wild and bizarre behavior is usually a result of stress, sickness, mental illness or a combination of the three.

    The other thought is that there is a lot of fraudulent claims by those who claim to be authorities on the subject.


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    @ Bridget:

    P.S. – without getting your panties in a wad, I might add.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    However, to be completely honest, I have no reason to believe this story is true.

    You are obviously the expert when it comes to looking into things, so are you saying it is completely made up and not an embellishment of a real event? Things may be more dire than even I suspect.

    I have seen confabulation at work, but it was due to underlying dementia in one instance and what I and some others *think* is some psychological pathology in the other instances.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    In fairness to you, it may be that you have never encountered a devout Piperite

    Correct! I’m neither an attacker of nor defender of Piper and his theology. I’ve read some of his sermons, but that’s about all. I’m also aware of him opening his mouth and jumping in with both feet. As far as Our Discussion(TM) goes, my views come from this side of the Pond rather than the other.

    Just to clarify, my post to Eagle was intended to get him to think how his repeated criticism of Piper may come across to devoted Piperites. It sounds as though Eagle has got it in for him, and legitimate criticism of Piper will go unconsidered if he is perceived to be venting a personal axe against him. I know ‘hate’ is a strong word, but I think this is how he will be perceived, and if I had watered it down and been all British and polite and wishy-washy, this point would have been missed. Disproportionate criticism will not be given a fair hearing.

    Even with the very best of well-known teachers and preachers, you have to recognise they have feet of clay and that you have to spit the pips out regarding what they teaach. And having a good knowledge of Greek and Hebrew does not equal having a good understanding of a healing or deliverance or whatever ministry.

    I think often the real problem is with devotees, who without the years of study and maturity run off with a doctrine and take it to extremes or neglect the checks and balances to it; or simply misunderstand it. We can all benefit from others’ wisdom and gifts but without turning them into a pope or shepherd figure, thereby inadvertently following men.


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    doubtful wrote:

    I used to be heavily invested in the idea of demon possession (even for Christians) thanks to the works of John Wimber , Charles Kraft, and many other authors who were endorsed by JI Packer.
    Today I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as demons. Wild and bizarre behavior is usually a result of stress, sickness, mental illness or a combination of the three.
    The other thought is that there is a lot of fraudulent claims by those who claim to be authorities on the subject.

    It exsists. Not as much as Morris and Piper and others want us to think, but it exsists. There is crazy behavior that is just that, mental illness, there are brain disorders we do not and may not ever understand, but when you’ve seen the things I have seen, trust me, you’ll become a believer….one day, I have got to write on here what happens….but I just don’t know if I want to dredge up that part of my past…..


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    Andy wrote:

    or even if there was a discussion about having medical treatment sought for her yet, naturally, we assume the worst.

    Not quite. I think any rational person would agree that seeking professional medical help for someone behaving strangely is a wise first step (btw, having been to college, the first thing that would have crossed my mind would be “those must have been some strong mushrooms!” – and given the propensity for college kids to ingest copious amounts of mind-altering substances, the need for medical attention becomes even more urgent). Now, it isn’t just that Piper doesn’t mention any such conversation, it is that in this one story he fails to tell everyone listening the importance of this first step. As we all know, the Catholic church believes in demon possession, and has rites for exorcism. And they make it explicitly clear that medical attention should be sought first, and that the rites should not be practiced by an amateur. They have that responsibility, and so does Piper.


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    roebuck wrote:

    I watched the video again a couple more times, and I feel certain he just made the whole thing up.

    I have a pretty healthy BS detector, and I have to agree with you. However, to be fair, Piper often displays the body language of a person trying to conceal something, so perhaps he is just a socially awkward/perennially anxious person.


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    Joe2 wrote:

    Ken, Did you ever see his video on teaching wives how to handle if their husband requested a menage a trios?
    Piper is a sick boy.

    Ha ha! You know, one of the things that irks me about the complementary movement is the amount of sick garbage that is common fair among their spokes-people. Driscoll’s fascination with the alimentary canal comes to mind. For all their talk about “masculinity”, they are unmanned by simple carnal desire.


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    If those who say there are no such things as demons are right, they argue with those who dealt with our son and another young man.

    Bear in mind our son is truly mentally ill. At the time there was no evidence he was psychotic. But perhaps he was. So I totally discount anything he “saw.”

    However, when trained law enforcement and the shrinks treating these young men in residential treatment tell you “they called up two beings, we don’t know what they were, but ma’am we all saw them clearly and knew to GET THE HECK OUT OF THERE”, with “there” being a secure facility conference room, well, they sure as shooting saw something.

    Perhaps there is more to this old universe than some of us see.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    You are obviously the expert when it comes to looking into things, so are you saying it is completely made up and not an embellishment of a real event?

    Lol. I wouldn’t call myself an expert, but I would call myself rational. And from that basis, the video gives no evidence that any of the story is based in fact. Watching the body language and story structure, I would almost certainly conclude that this is a whole cloth fabrication. I’m not sure it matters – if it’s true, Piper displays a horrifyingly narcissistic ignorance and if its false then he displays something less dangerous but no more flattering.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Tim wrote:

    Then I went home. End of story.

    Tim, Tim, Tim. You really need to work on your marketing skills. I mean, really, how do you expect to make a video out of that?

    Precisely, Doc, thanks. (Nice to see someone got my point of being pithy!)


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    Bridget wrote:

    without getting your panties in a wad, I might add.

    Well, that assumes I wear underwear, Bridget.

    Going commando,
    Tim


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    refugee wrote:

    I lost two friendships over “Pigs in the Parlour” and Derek Prince. I couldn’t understand the need for hysteria and they cut me off as not spiritual enough, or something like that.

    They were never your ‘friends’ in the first place.


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      __

    “Keep Ma Lamp Burnin’ Till Da Break Of Day?”

    hmmm…

    Heather,

    Hey,

    Sure thing!

    The ‘One’ I serve, “ever so imperfectly”, causes it to rain upon the ‘just’ & the ‘unjust’; how can I present kindness any ‘less’ so.

    As you are well aware, many playing the Lord fasely, have come today and desecrated the Lord’s ‘sanctuaries’. As a result, faith upon the earth has become very much diminished, – just as Jesus pronounced prior to His Olivet departure, and later in His talk with Apostle John, during his (John’s) imprisonment upon Patmos. As a result, subsequently many of the Apostles warned that days would come where ‘false shepherds’ would come speaking ‘bizarre’ things and scatter Jesus’ flock…that the love of many would grow cold. That mockers would arise in great numbers in a time when many went to and fro, and knowledge increased. That lawlessness would wax worse as well…

    huh?

    SKreeeeeeeeeetch !

    (fast forward)

    That one day, the Son of Man is gonna come in His Father’s glory with His angels, that He will reward folks according to what they’z done…

    Whoops!

    If so, what kinda folk should we ‘be’?

    (bump)

    If Jesus ‘comes’ suddenly, do not let Him find you sleeping…

    Snorrrrrr…

    (sadface)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imxSiwzHvXk

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief: Funkadelic – Can You Get To That – Cover by Nicki Bluhm & The Gramblers 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRbpF9GoK24

    🙂


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    Ken wrote:

    I know ‘hate’ is a strong word, but I think this is how he will be perceived, and if I had watered it down and been all British and polite and wishy-washy, this point would have been missed. Disproportionate criticism will not be given a fair hearing.

    For a Piperite, anything other than undiluted praise and affirmation of his great knowledge and wisdom will be perceived as “hate.” So, it really doesn’t matter the degree if the kind is not right in their eyes.

    I think disproportionate is in the eye of the beholder as well. Depending on your degree of revulsion at spousal abuse–either gender being the perp–you might think Piper’s instructions on the matter are fine. I think any kind of abuse, and especially the abuse of claimed spiritual authority, is repugnant.

    And, on the topic of our Other Discussion, I stick closely to the actual words of the texts we have been given whereas Piper goes all creative with his storytelling of the actual narrative we were given by the Holy Spirit–presuming one believes as I do that the texts are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I prefer faithful expositors to poets when it comes to the texts. I don’t need a good story that builds up Piper’s masculinity. I already have the Great Story, and Piper is not the hero of it.

    Hope you had a fabulous time with the family over the holidays!


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    Far be it from me to question Pastor Emeritus Piper.

    “The reality check is what will happen to John Piper’s soul … and to my marriage … and to my future … when there will be no prideful sipping from the poisonous cup of international fame and notoriety,” the 64-year-old preacher said. “I need to find that out and I don’t know any other way to do it.”

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-to-take-leave-to-reexamine-soul-44512/


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    Tim wrote:

    Well, that assumes I wear underwear, Bridget.

    TMI, Tim.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    TMI, Tim.

    Of course, TMI rearranged spells my name.


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    @ Tim:
    Second time you made me laugh today!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Hope you had a fabulous time with the family over the holidays!

    I put this at the end of one of our Other Discussions which I will copy here:

    Thank you for your kind wishes, and yes, a good Christmas was had with family and friends. I hope you too had a good Cbristmas and will have a happy and blessed New Year. 🙂

    The Dover/Dunkirk ferry trip was in the teeth of a gale, and I was glad to get to the other side. For most of the rest of the journey the countryside was covered in snow, picturesque, but not so pleasant to drive through.

    I enjoyed a midnight mass in the local Anglican church, but didn’t actually take communion as it was just a bit too (Anlgo-) catholic for my evangelical susceptabilities!


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    Ken wrote:

    It sounds as though Eagle has got it in for him, and legitimate criticism of Piper will go unconsidered if he is perceived to be venting a personal axe against him.

    He does have a personal experience with John Piper’s material which hurt him deeply. There are many reasons for comments: agreement, critique, working out difficult issues, etc. Sometimes a comment has nothing to do with convincing someone that a particular theologian is wrong. Sometimes it is away to vent and that is healthy as well. We are all people in process.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Tweets such as how such-and-such a disaster was God Punishing Us for Unpardonable (usually sexual) Sin Du Jour.

    Wouldn’t it be nice to hear one of these spokespeople for God to say that the tornado was because some churches and pastors ignored pedophilia in their churches?


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    TW wrote:

    “The reality check is what will happen to John Piper’s soul … and to my marriage … and to my future … when there will be no prideful sipping from the poisonous cup of international fame and notoriety,” the 64-year-old preacher said. “I need to find that out and I don’t know any other way to do it.”

    Well, a good start to it would be *not* to give interviews about it and just go about doing it. I wonder if the garden of his marriage is still as rock-solid as cold granite or if there is some ember of warm and tender affection.

    It was very interesting that he stated he would not be accepting any roles that Noel did not approve. I think that breaks one of his big, big rules which might have caused his marriage to petrify in the first place. If he thought of marriage as a one-flesh partnership instead of a military organization with people following a chain of command, perhaps his paid vacation with Noel would not have been necessary. Sure hope he got all the thorns and thistles out of that Fallen garden and they started living as one-flesh redeemed-in-Christ powered-by-the-Holy Spirit real people instead of the cardboard roleplayers in RBMW.


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    Tim wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    TMI, Tim.
    Of course, TMI rearranged spells my name.

    Why, I had no idea. 😉 You know all the speculation surrounding kilts and robes…


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    dee quoting someone else:

    Grudem’s list of 80-some restrictions on women’s “roles”

    I wonder why Grudem and other complementarians don’t go all the way out like these guys:

    Saudi Arabian airline to separate genders after men complain about blokes sitting next to their wives
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/saudi-arabian-airline-separate-genders-4908803

    The airline carrier already complies with strict Islam practices including not serving alcohol or pork products, providing a men’s prayer area on most international flights and not employing Saudi women as cabin crew.

    But the airline does employ women of other nationalities.

    Many Saudi women require approval from a male guardian before they can travel or work outside the home.

    And

    Delta Airlines flight from New York’s JFK Airport delayed after ultra-Orthodox Jewish passengers refuse to sit next to women
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2891081/Delta-Airlines-flight-New-York-s-JFK-Airport-delayed-ultra-Orthodox-Jewish-passengers-refuse-sit-women.html


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    @ dee:

    Ken, read my story. Read about what my Mom experienced with pancreatic cancer, and read what I did becuase I was under the John Piper kool-aide. My Mom suffered enough, the last thing she needed was a brainwashed idiot telling her that her cancer wasa gift from God just becuase John Piper thinks so. Some of this stuff backfired in horrednous ways.

    My East Coast Mom!! Check your email. 🙂


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    Gram3 wrote:

    You know all the speculation surrounding kilts

    Ah, the no true Scotsman fallacy …


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    dee wrote:

    Sometimes it is away to vent and that is healthy as well.

    I’m genuinely not sure about that. A subject perhaps worth discussing in its own right.


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    Ken wrote:

    Ah, the no true Scotsman fallacy …

    Wait, are you talking about Tim or Piper who might well say, “No true Complementarian would be abusive”?


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    Ken wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Sometimes it is away to vent and that is healthy as well.
    I’m genuinely not sure about that. A subject perhaps worth discussing in its own right.

    Ken, I don’t think that we are talking about mere venting. We are talking about someone who has been victimized by a false teaching. I don’t know if you have lost one of your parents or have felt the guilt that goes along with that, but if he is anything like me, Eagle feels a lot of guilt and pain in the wake of the loss of his mother. Piper’s theology is a cold, hard thing. Eagle may feel betrayed by trusting in Piper while he was part of that System. He may feel deep grief at the pain he believes he caused his mother due to giving her Piper’s book.

    That kind of pain needs to be shared, and the church is certainly not the place where Eagle would be safe to share that kind of thing. They would only shame him more. Because Piper. Because God’s Glory. It is awful what the likes of Piper do to real, human, flesh-and-blood people and to God’s reputation. They have an abstract system that takes precedence over real human suffering.


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    There is a story in the news lately of a preacher who was arrested for sex acts with children. Some of the articles link to his church site and his blog.

    One of the sites I visited said his church is Reformed. His church site has a page of church policies and stuff you can download in PDF format. I downloaded it and skimmed it. There is a membership section on it.

    Like this blog has pointed out several times over, some churches who are into this membership / discipline stuff are very vague about what can get you in hot water with a church, and the preacher gets all the final say in how or what kind of discipline is dished out. That was true of that preacher’s church’s membership and discipline page. It did not lay down specifics.

    I found it ironic that a preacher who is suspected of sexually abusing at least two kids (police think there are more) has a blog page (or maybe this was on the church site, I can’t remember which it was right off hand) talking about how too many Christians these days are “lax about church discipline.”

    So he’s concerned about the misbehavior of other self professing believers in churches while apparently, at the same time, engaging in sex acts with children. Jesus broached this issue when he talked about specks and beams in people’s eyes.

    This preacher also has a blog page talking about how to make a good witness for Jesus Christ.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    And, on the topic of our Other Discussion, I stick closely to the actual words of the texts we have been given whereas Piper goes all creative with his storytelling of the actual narrative we were given by the Holy Spirit–presuming one believes as I do that the texts are inspired by the Holy Spirit. I prefer faithful expositors to poets when it comes to the texts. I don’t need a good story that builds up Piper’s masculinity. I already have the Great Story, and Piper is not the hero of it.

    Boy, that is a great way to explain it. I started noticing this a long way back with all the flowery verbosity and arm waving. Then when I stripped all that away, the content was…. well….about his passion if you want to get real about it. The irony is that it is nigh impossible to be a Berean if one is following Piper. It is a maze of mystery. I cannot believe how many young people have fallen for him.

    I keep going back to the brief video he did concerning what a wife should do if her husband requested a menage a trois. The message? Make sure you wives don’t take away his manhood/leadership when you decline. I kid you not

    Piper was not concerned about the seriously rotten fruit of the husband. He was only concerned about his manhood/leadership would be intact when she said no!

    That, in essence, is Piper. False teacher.


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    Lydia wrote:

    I keep going back to the brief video he did concerning what a wife should do if her husband requested a menage a trois. The message? Make sure you wives don’t take away his manhood/leadership when you decline.

    Well, now, if a man’s masculinity is wrapped up in kinky sex, then we have a whole ‘nuther problem, don’t we? The very fact that he would link a man’s masculinity to whether his wife disagrees says volumes about Piper’s conception of masculinity. What kind of a man thinks like that? ISTM that only a man with deep insecurities about himself *as a person* has such anxiety about their masculinity, which he defines as being in charge. Well, of course if you start with a wrong premise you are going to get to a wrong conclusion!

    IMO, once a person is In Christ, that becomes their *primary* identity which should swamp the significance of any physical characteristics that they inherited from their human parents. We have received an inheritance as Children of God and fellow-heirs with Christ! Why is it that men who pride themselves on their soteriology have such a deficient view of what Christ accomplished on the Cross?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    You know all the speculation surrounding kilts and robes

    I revealed that mystery long ago. Under my robe I wear Bermuda shorts, a Hawaiian shirt, and leather strap sandals with dark socks. I also have been known to refer to my robe as a black muumuu. Because it is.


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    @ Gram3:

    Gram3 my mother did not die, what I did is compoud her suffering and added to her pain. She was so angry and so upset that she called me on John Piper’s teaching several years after the facts. My family has seen the uglyness of fundementalism in their life. From me giving my Mom John Piper’s teaching when she was recovering from pancreatic cancer, to my Dad being at Duke University Medical School on November 22, 1963 and watching Baptists being happy that John F. Kennedy was killed in Dallas. My Dad rasied that again over the Holidays.


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    @ Joe2:
    Joe…that video made the rounds a few years ago. Right now don’t have time to search. After all the analysis he might have deleted it by now.


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    @ Joe2:
    Joe…that video made the rounds a few years ago. Right now don’t have time to search. After all the analysis he might have deleted it by now. Who knows.


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    Tim wrote:

    I also have been known to refer to my robe as a black muumuu. Because it is.

    Laugh number 3 today!


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    Daisy wrote:

    some churches who are into this membership / discipline stuff are very vague about what can get you in hot water with a church, a

    If you can find me any church which spells out the membership rules of the game a priori in any specific fashion, I will feature it on this blog. I cannot find any which lists a number of discipline items and the expected consequences.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Tim, Tim, Tim. You really need to work on your marketing skills. I mean, really, how do you expect to make a video out of that?

    If he’s going into the video thing, he’ll need to find his own niche.

    Or, maybe he can copy John Piper’s Fluttering Hands (or see the ‘Jazz Hand’ video above, I linked to it in a post), or go the Mark Driscoll- Frat- Boy- Dude- Bro route.


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    @ Eagle:

    I apologize for getting those facts wrong. And I am very thankful that your mom recovered! Sounds like she has Piper figured out, too.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    For all their talk about “masculinity”, they are unmanned by simple carnal desire.

    This is also related to a point I’ve seen people on other sites make.

    On the one hand, 1.) gender complementarians bring up all sorts of justification for male hierarchy, everything from women are too emotional or too weak or too easily deceived to whatever.

    Then they turn around on another web page and argue that 2.) men are too weak, cannot control their sexual urges or thought lives, so women must “dress modestly.”

    If point #1 is true, how can point 2 follow? If men (according to point 1) are so in charge and capable and should therefore be able to sit in authority above women, why can they not control their sexual impulses?

    They two points seem at odds to one another. The complementarians want to have their cake and eat it too.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    That kind of pain needs to be shared, and the church is certainly not the place where Eagle would be safe to share that kind of thing. They would only shame him more. Because Piper. Because God’s Glory. It is awful what the likes of Piper do to real, human, flesh-and-blood people and to God’s reputation. They have an abstract system that takes precedence over real human suffering.

    “Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man”

    ~ Thomas Paine ~


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    dee wrote:

    We are all people in process

    Even John Piper.


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    dee wrote:

    If you can find me any church which spells out the membership rules of the game a priori in any specific fashion,

    I guess I’ve been around too many church blocks. I think that if they did specify the sins which would trigger discipline, they could and would still manipulate matters to make the undesirable member “guilty” in the eyes of a significant number of the other members. Most people just want to have a pleasant experience on Sunday mornings. They don’t appreciate having that disturbed.

    Failing that, the leaders may try to make life so miserable that the targeted member will eventually leave. I think it goes back to the purpose of these agreements/covenants which you have exposed so many times. It is for the protection and benefit of the ones in power.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Gram3 my mother did not die…. My family has seen the uglyness of fundementalism in their life; from me giving my Mom John Piper’s teaching when she was recovering from pancreatic cancer

    Eagle’s mother had PANCREATIC cancer. Well over 95% kill rate no matter what the treatments, right up there with Stage IV Lung Cancer. Pancreatic and Liver Cancers are called “Stealth Cancers” or “Ninja Cancers” because normally the first symptoms are you die from it.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    They have an abstract system that takes precedence over real human suffering.

    Just like Communism.


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    Jackie wrote:

    Seeing that this interview is over a year old, maybe we are having our ears tickled here, now. Maybe we love to see, hear and say how messed up our brothers are. Or maybe as has been said, they are so utterly dangerous and abusive, they need to be stopped above all else. ?

    No idea. I didn’t notice the date on the interview, admittedly, but I am looking to form an informed opinion of John Piper. I expressed some vague reservations to a friend who was enthusing over John Piper in general. The friend asked for specifics. I had none, only could say that I had read a few things here and there, things that made me want to dig deeper, to compare Piper’s pronouncements with scripture, things that made me wonder if he was being “persecuted for being faithful” (not quoting something I have heard attributed to Piper, but have heard from authoritarian hyper-Calvinist, hyper-partriarchal teachers) or if he was actually leading people astray.

    You raise a good point. I don’t get the impression, though, that TWW is trying to bring down John Piper’s ministry just for the heck of it. I get the impression that there are some honest concerns.

    I know that talking about dealing with demon-possession *does* tickle the ears — it’s exciting, sort of like watching a body-count movie (Die Hard, or Lethal Weapon series, or Speed, are examples that come to mind). It appeals to the voyeur in us. We can ooh, and ah, and “wow” and give Jesus a fist bump when the storytelling is done. Not that we (at least, I speak for myself) would ever want to encounter such a thing in real life.

    If someone were reporting (gossiping?) that Piper had said such things, I’d take it with a grain of salt. Hearing it come out of his own mouth, it makes me take *him* with a grain of salt, especially considering the content.

    Going back to the original article, I see it’s actually two years old, not one. Still, it is a part of the picture that makes up the whole man. I might be able to say that Piper used to be a source of sound teaching (I don’t know that, but it is possible), which would make the recent tweets that have been publicized somewhat troubling. (Maybe the man is just a poor communicator when he’s got a severe word limit.) It may be that I might have been in full agreement with him at one time. Of course, considering that at that time I was in a church that has been called cultish in its practices, my former opinion would be suspect.

    I’m still trying to find an answer that satisfies me, in regard to my friend’s question about the soundness of Piper’s teachings. We already disagree on one point — my friend is a complementarian, and I have seen much misery from that way of looking at things. So my friend already agrees with Piper’s view of men and women, and would probably see his teaching in that area as sound and biblical, where I would not be inclined to rubber stamp his teachings in that area.

    I suppose if I had time, and were serious about the matter, I’d go and read his writings again, and listen to recordings, and compare them to scripture. But I don’t have time. Life is full. Therefore, I will neither disparage Piper, nor embrace his teaching. But I am reading and listening and pondering.

    I don’t want to drive anyone out of ministry. I just want to be able to give an informed answer when asked why I hesitate to enthuse about a man’s teaching and reputation. And, having been deceived, manipulated, and burned, I hesitate over *any* teaching these days. I take *every* anecdote posted on discernment websites and in their comments with a grain of salt, and if I have time I go searching for independent confirmation of what was said. I have been reading at SSB and TWW for months now, and have a feeling for some of the commenters who comment regularly, though we may never have met. They are consistent in their back stories, and in expressing their views, and in the support and comfort they offer to people who have suffered spiritual abuse. Even so, I probably wouldn’t claim to “know” them personally. (As we have found in our dealings with an internet stalker, people can wear masks online, pretend to be someone that they are not. Alternatively, people can also express very real pain online, anonymously, without fear of repercussions. Having a lot of pain of my own to deal with, I can understand that.)

    I would rather send someone a link, than talk about what I read somewhere. I am too good at muddling details, which makes me wary of mentioning something someone else has said. (I *will* share from my own experience, having experienced it.)

    And the sensationalism comment was just that, a comment, a wondering about how some preachers seem to raise money by sensationalizing. Not a direct pointing of the finger at John Piper. As I said in the comment, perhaps it was unworthy of me to wonder if there was a connection between a sensational anecdote and fundraising.


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    Tim wrote:

    I revealed that mystery long ago. Under my robe I wear Bermuda shorts, a Hawaiian shirt, and leather strap sandals with dark socks. I also have been known to refer to my robe as a black muumuu. Because it is.

    The priest at our college church wore shorts, tee shirt and sneakers under his robes. That way he was ready for the regularly occurring softball game after the service. Thanks for reminding me of him! He was wonderful, and never took himself too seriously.


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    JS wrote:

    Even John Piper.

    Yes. However, when a leader who is revered and followed by loads of people makes a statement about how he handled an *exorcism,* and we have questions, we are allowed to discuss the issue. We do not ignore a problem because we are people in process.

    This is exactly the same response that people had when we first started discussing the Mark Driscoll problem. We must question what leaders claim is appropriate.

    Unlike the Desiring God website, this blog allows for all sorts of critiques of our own point of view. It is really too bad that Piper does not do the same.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    The very fact that he would link a man’s masculinity to whether his wife disagrees says volumes about Piper’s conception of masculinity.

    I heard about a scientific study on the news a few months ago. I think it took place in Britain, but don’t remember for sure any more. In the study, husbands were told to agree with their wives on everything. Yes, everything, for the period of the study. I guess it was to see if people would become more confident, or something, if they received no criticism? Don’t know, that’s speculation on my part.

    What I do remember was the results. A number of the men quit the study before it was over, because they said their wives were becoming more and more unreasonable. In effect, they were creating monsters!

    The reason the study spoke to me so clearly at the time, was because I was in the process of questioning patriarchy, and that I had been taught to support my husband in everything, or if I had to disagree, to do it in such a way that would not impact his role as leader in our home. You know, it’s in the bible, after all. Love and respect. (Men love, women respect.) Or something like that.

    So by insisting my husband (and the children’s father) was always right, should always get the first and best of everything, of making a point of not contradicting him, I was doing him harm. And he *still* said something about how I was constantly in opposition to him during those years, when I stopped kow-towing. So he evidently didn’t notice how much I made a point of deferring to him… wasted effort, I guess. The kids sure noticed, though, and told me some time after we left patriarchy how much they resented it and how inconsiderate their father had become over the years.


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    The reason why so many systems are so firm in control is because their leaders like John Piper are insecure. Its like the Muslims who go into fits of rage because they can’t deal with western cartoons of Islam. The reason why some of these people create such situations is becuase they can’t deal with the questions. Or the only questions they will permit are those that are easily explaiend and support their worldview. The Mormons do the same thing. People need control and need to live within a bubble becuase that is where fundementlaism thrives.


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    In other news, Edinburgh City Cooncil has announced provisional plans to impose a 20 mph speed-limit throughout the city centre.

    While the move has been broadly welcomed by road safety groups, I don’t think a 20 mph speed limit is achievable. For anyone desperate enough to attempt to drive through central Edinburgh, 20 miles a day is more realistic.


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    refugee wrote:

    So by insisting my husband (and the children’s father) was always right, should always get the first and best of everything, of making a point of not contradicting him, I was doing him harm.

    That is because wives who are ruled by their husbands cannot be the true ezer that God intended a wife to be to her husband. They both stay in immaturity, though their immaturity manifests in different ways–hers in helplessness and his in entitlement. Neither of those resembles Christ, the Head into whom we are all called to grow up until we reach maturity in him.

    I used to think that hierarchy was just a sin against the woman/women. But now I am realizing that the patriarchal system obscures the image of God in women. God created humans with a will that he wants us to use to glorify him. When a woman’s will is denied or totally subsumed into her husband’s will, then God’s glory is not fully displayed. This, of course, is the opposite of the patriarchal view which says that God’s glory is displayed in her submission and her husband’s rule.

    This, I think is a fundamental flaw resulting from their very wrong Theology proper, at least in my view. Rather than conceiving of the Trinity as equal Persons who mutually indwell one another in mutual love, each with freedom unconstrained by the other Persons except for their mutual love, the patriarchalists see a Trinity with a Father who rules in unquestioned rule over a Son who has no choice but to submit to the Father.

    So, the Incarnation was not so much a voluntary self-emptying but rather a decision which the Son made due to obedience rather than love. That is not to say that the Son was not obedient but to highlight the aspect of the motivation of love for the Father and for the ones the Son came to save. ISTM that the whole theme of love as the prime motivation is lost in the patriarchal system. The patriarchal system espoused by Piper and company is grounded in fear and obligation rather than love and respect.


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    Jackie wrote:

    @ Joe:
    I also have to wonder why this focus on an account of an openly admitted one time event 20 years ago. Seems like digging around in vain to me. Bless you.

    I really appreciate your commentary. It semes very balanced and reasonable. I guess one thing I’d like you to consider is that the post is titled, “John Piper, Robert Morris and Demons”. I’d agree that Piper doesn’t appear to be a demonic alarmist. But Robert Morris is. He has a very large department in a separate building dedicated to having people reveal their secrets/problems to unlicensed, non-professional therapists/counselors – not unsimilar to the Jim Jones cult another reader mentioned above. Then they drive out your demons but simultaneously remind you this only works so long as you pay them 10% of your gross receipts for life. Gateway’s Freedom Ministry “helps” thousands of people every year this way. It’s dangerous. Just like in the Piper case, practices like this can derail people from seeking legitimate health or psychiatric care that may be critical to their health and well being. Perhaps because Dee is married to a physician she sees these dangers more clearly.

    What I do know is that Robert Morris is coming out with a major book, plus devotionals and teaching materials that is purely focused on demonic exorcism – utilizing Milton the Carpet Cleaners fool proof exorcism techniques – that he personally wants purchased and taught in every church in the WORLD. Thomas Nelson paid him a staggering amount of money in advance. I know because Morris bragged about it from the stage. And starry eyed wanna-be millionaires will teach it at their churches because it will be the basis from which they will extort money from their congregation. This “Free Indeed” platform explains that your children will be demonically possessed if not for you casting out the demons. Milton the Carpet Cleaner, by the way, has one of the sketchiest backgrounds you could imagine. Yet Robert Morris and James Robison have both made millions off of Uncle Miltie’s schemes. Hopefully TWW will cover that at a later date. The details are shocking.

    The point is that when respected, rational, learned and legitimate theologians claim that they too have performed exorcisms, that adds gravitas to Robert Morris’ money scam. So reviewing Piper’s story is important since people like Morris and Driscoll ride on his coat tails of credibility. Piper should put the safety of the Kingdom first, take that video down from his website then make a statement denouncing Morris’ “Free Indeed” books and teachings. The only reason I can see him balking is because like so many others before him, he’s willing to hold his nose and endorse or at least endure these charlatans in the hopes of squirreling away some serious coin for retirement. A clean conscience and right standing with God starts to feel mighty expensive when staggering sums are readily available to those willing to switch hit for the Charismaniacs.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    For anyone desperate enough to attempt to drive through central Edinburgh, 20 miles a day is more realistic.

    So, have you been stuck in traffic all this time? It is a comfort knowing that we Americans are not the only ones with such wise and diligent civil servants and representatives.


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    @ Gram3:

    Just to be clear, I am not drawing a one-to-one correspondence between the Persons of the Trinity and human beings. Nor am I advocating some kind of tri-theism. Merely highlighting the love among the Persons as the primary relationship rather than the power of one over the other.


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    LT wrote:

    Milton the Carpet Cleaner, by the way, has one of the sketchiest backgrounds you could imagine. Yet Robert Morris and James Robison have both made millions off of Uncle Miltie’s schemes. Hopefully TWW will cover that at a later date. The details are shocking.

    Who is Milton the Carpet Cleaner?


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    Blessings back at you Jackie!

    And Joe2 isn’t my secret other identity 🙂

    And thanks Dee for letting me get my one cent in twice…


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    mirele wrote:

    LT wrote:
    Who is Milton the Carpet Cleaner?

    Milton Green. And he had many occupations. Robert Morris and James Robison chose to stick with “carpet cleaner” because it was the one that sounded the most humble and made Milton seem like a decent hard working man who just happened to preach as a layman. Reality paints a far different picture. In the early ’80’s both Robert Morris and James Robison travelled throughout the South with Milton, renting hotels and convention centers then luring in hundreds of desperate people who were in need of healing for health, relationship and/or financial problems. These people in need were charged a healthy admission fee for the conference then coaxed into buying additional materials or giving additional love money. The foundation of these conferences was that virtually everyone is possessed by demons with Green having the most, Robison the second most and Morris the third most. The demons are responsible for all that ails you. Then Milton would cast your demons out. All of this was done in the name of Jesus Christ. The fact that Morris and Robison both trace their spiritual heritage through Milton Green should put your radar on alert. Not one of these three men had a college degree, formal training outside of attending revivals or went to seminary. What they had was nice fluffy hair, a love of money and a finely honed stage act.


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    LT wrote:

    All of this was done in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Words fail. Do you have any insight into how to help someone who is caught up in this stuff? I have no experience with this particular flavor of emetic religion.


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    @ LT:

    Do you mean the very same James Robison who now panhandles on TV with his wife Betty on behalf of poor African children?


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    LT wrote:

    Milton Green. And he had many occupations.

    Not to be confused with Milton Greene (Milton H. Greene), the late photographer.


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    @ LT:

    I assume that Milton, Morris, and Robison became very very rich?


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    LT wrote:

    But Robert Morris is. He has a very large department in a separate building dedicated to having people reveal their secrets/problems to unlicensed, non-professional therapists/counselors – not unsimilar to the Jim Jones cult another reader mentioned above. Then they drive out your demons but simultaneously remind you this only works so long as you pay them 10% of your gross receipts for life.

    NICE. RACKET.

    And not only “Jim Jones cult”, this sounds like Scientology Auditing.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    the patriarchalists see a Trinity with a Father who rules in unquestioned rule over a Son who has no choice but to submit to the Father.

    And where’s the Holy Spirit in all this? Out to lunch?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Andy wrote:

    Dude, there are indeed some real wacko’s out there but a plain reading of scripture tells us that these things are. I see no reason to disbelieve what the bible teaches and warns us about regarding satan and demons.

    Does the Bible grant us infallible knowledge about what is a demonic attack and what is a physical/psychiatric problem that is treatable? Piper failed as a pastor, in this instance, because he failed to get her the best treatment possible for any or all of the above and/or demonic possession. But *he* decided it was demonic possession. How could he have possibly known that for sure? Why did he place the other students at risk as well?….

    Yes, there are all sorts of serious medical problems that on their face could seem like “demonic” activity to the untrained. A well-known author in the San Francisco Bay Area where I live started having hallucinations and other serious problems. The cause of all of her problems? A tick bite.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ LT:
    Do you mean the very same James Robison who now panhandles on TV with his wife Betty on behalf of poor African children?

    Yes, it’s the same guy. Robison has Morris on his show a few times per year.

    Morris has been on Robison’s Life Today show a few times this week and last to sell a new book he has out.

    You can visit Robison’s “Life Today” site and search for the name Robert Morris here:
    http://lifetoday.org/life-today-tv/guest-directory/?Submit=&search=Robert+Morris


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    Eagle wrote:

    Its like the Muslims who go into fits of rage because they can’t deal with western cartoons of Islam.

    Like the mass murder in Paris this morning?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    LT wrote:
    All of this was done in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Words fail. Do you have any insight into how to help someone who is caught up in this stuff? I have no experience with this particular flavor of emetic religion.

    It’s really difficult because by design these cults heavily pressure you to bring all your friends and family members in as well. So when you finally figure out that something is terribly wrong it may mean that you have to leave your friends and families behind to get free. That’s a big part of why people stay even when they know they should leave. This open letter to Mark Driscoll gives some insight to how these cults literally tear families apart http://welovemarshill.com/post/95725540360/karen-schaeffer-a-letter-to-mark-driscoll

    I would highly recommend reading blogs like this. It’s easier to hear the truth from someone who has been in the same situation. You feel less stupid. It’s the reason I try to post when I can. I know that I have poured over these pages trying to figure out how I was so deceived. Other comments really help especially when they contain specifics that I can relate to and believe because my soul knows they are true. Professionals who help former cult members recommend reading about cognitive dissonance which is the next biggest reason people don’t leave. The following book is an invaluable resource: “Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts Paperback” – by Carol Tavris & Elliot Aronson
    http://www.amazon.com/Mistakes-Were-Made-But-Not/dp/0156033909/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1420688297&sr=8-1&keywords=mistakes+were+made+but+not+by+me.

    One of the best resources for me, personally, has been the podcast “Fighting for the Faith” http://www.fightingforthefaith.com. This is a 2+ hour daily radio show where the host, Chris Rosebrough, reviews sermons and addresses some of the weirdness emanating from Evangelical mega churches. The reason I like this show is because Rosebrough educates the audience in how to discern false teachings. It’s also easier to hear bad things about your church from a professional than friend to friend as they will likely view your concern as a personal attack or an “attack of the enemy”. It helps you feel a little more in control that you won’t be so easily deceived by preachers in the future. Finally I would watch all of the Strange Fire videos on YouTube. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jRqD89ZBWyg or better yet, read the book.

    In the end, if the Holy Spirit is truly dwelling within the person you are trying to help, deep down inside they will know that something is wrong and that you are speaking the truth. God graciously gave us that. It just takes a while. My heart continually breaks that so many people I love and care about are risking their salvation by worshipping and obeying false prophets.

    Hope that wasn’t too long. Emetic is a very evocative word. You may need some warm tea to get through these resources.


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    “roebuck wrote:
    I watched the video again a couple more times, and I feel certain he just made the whole thing up.”

    I had a long diatribe that would not have been very helpful. I agree with this statement and felt the same way when I watched it.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ LT:
    Do you mean the very same James Robison who now panhandles on TV with his wife Betty on behalf of poor African children?

    Yes Muff. One in the same. When Morris was first starting out, in addition to the Milton Green gigs (BTW green cult followers are called “Greenies”), he used to open for Robison by doing ventriloquism and stand-up comedy. James is an Apostolic elder at Gateway. If you go to Gateway’s website and click on sermons then sort speakers http://gatewaypeople.com/sermons/180386 you can listen to some of his sermons. He makes a good television host and is quite personable. But watch these sermons then you can decide for yourself how mentally or emotionally stable you think he is. Note: these sermons are the heavily edited ones. You should see the raw versions. Priceless.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And where’s the Holy Spirit in all this? Out to lunch?

    The Holy Spirit has no role to play in this system. Rules have been substituted for his sanctification work in the believer’s life. And the Holy Spirit cannot be mapped to anyone else in the marriage in a way that supports hierarchy, so no need for him!


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    @ Daisy:
    All you write is true; however, my point was much simpler. “Manliness” has always been an artificial construct, something arrived at by labor and effort. Many in the complementarian crowd haven’t got it. Ironic.


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    Heather wrote:

    Two hours of having to stay and listen to someone read the Bible. “Not knowing what to do” Piper reads the Bible at her for two hours. Everything about this screams “I will control you until you succumb”! No mention of if they all considered whether she was ill or hungry or tired out of her mind. Just the word of a bunch of students who diagnosed her, determined that by her facial appearance and voice she was “possessed”. She is cornered by a bunch of college kids while a man she has never met reads the Bible at her for two hours?
    Then a knife appear. But everything is fine because PIPER HAS A COAT! Are you freaking kidding me? Dee, please tell me this is a joke!
    Does the associate have a coat? The other people who had her “cornered”, were they safe enough in their sweatshirts and jeans? Did Piper pass his coat around depending on where the knife was pointed?
    But, hey! The ending is great! After two, three, four(?) hours of being cornered, she falls unconscious. And the normal Reformed reaction to seeing a person unconscious is not to render first aid, call 911, but to be mesmerized. Then thankfully she comes around and they have her read something from the Bible. As one does after being unconscious…
    Then they all leave. Ain’t that precious! How about they sit with her, feed her, comfort her, meet her needs? No. If this woman truly went through a demon possession did she really need to be alone?

    The whole thing sounds like something from “Modern Romance” magazine.
    And I have to say, after two hours of listening to John Piper, I would have gone for a knife myslef.


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    John R wrote:

    I have personally preached in twenty three countries and have seen things you think you would only see in a horror movie. Demons are real.

    My dear man, no one is denying the existence of demons.
    We are joined, however, in disbelieving Piper’s fairy story. It didnae happen, laddie.


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    Aye, laddie.


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    numo wrote:

    I have no doubt that there is also MUCH untreated illness – physical and mental – in all parts of the world that can easily *appear* as if its symptoms are those commknly attributed to demonic possession by many credulous evangelicals. There are an awful lot of purely physical illnesses that can cause mental problems. To assume demonic possession without benefit of a medical examination… sorry, i cannot accept that. The Roman Catholic Church tries very hard to make certain that supposedly possessed people have appropriate medical (including psychiatric) workups done in order to rule out all other possible causes (and help suffering people get treatment) before calling in an exorcist.

    Thank you for this intelligent analysis.
    Would that all believers were as cautious as the Catholics are about this subject; we would all be better off.


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    Toffeemama wrote:

    My point is, do we actually know anything about this woman or the outcome of the exorcism other than what Piper said?

    We don’t even know if there WAS a young woman, other than what Piper said. He may have been making the whole thing up as he went along, using bits & pieces of folk tales, horror movies, & drug-induced hallucinations as fodder for his story.

    That’s the trouble with the likes of Piper: They delight in seeking the bright lights, the glitz, & the glamour.


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    Patti wrote:

    @ Gram3:

    Aw yes, Gram3, you hit the mark of what seemed off with Piper about himself. As humble as he theatrically acts, he draws attention to himself. Also, I do believe he was irresponsible and after so many years in ministry he should know that by now. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that his recollection of the situation is true, he should be stating that he operated ignorantly and recklessly at the time, first off, by not knowing this girl, if he wanted to pray for deliverance while the ambulance was coming, whatever, but I’ve seen a diabetics rage or confusion like they are not themselves, too, how could he know?

    Agreed. But we don’t even need to go that far. About 20 years ago, my mother called the ambulance & had me taken to the hospital. I was stumbling around the room with my head in a wastepaper basket, which I kept calling “Mom”, & speaking a long line of absolute gibberish.
    The diagnosis? A medication change had caused me to become incoherent.Once they cleared the stuff out of my body, & rehydrated me, I was fine. (I can tell you this story because my mother (a devout Christian-an “old-time Methodist”) had the common sense to call 911.

    John Piper, it appears, has no sense– common or otherwise.


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    Bridget wrote:

    A Celebrity isn’t a pastor.

    Amen!!


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    I just had to add this, first and foremost I get people make bank off the whole demon shtick and that fact, alone justifies anything they do. It always has, does and it always should. I get that. But I have known so many people who were hurt by the utter absolute lies of the Satanic conspiracy back in the late 70’s and 80’s. People made bank off it, good for them, it is always good for people to make bank even if they hurt literally thousands of people. They are irrelevant and have it coming, another fact I get from the industry. My issue is that people with mental and developmental disabilities that manifest behaviors that can be construed as “demonic”. It did great damage to some I worked with and many whom I heard about from family members who suffered under such utter and complete stupidity.

    I wont go into the grieving families that thought their kid was burning in hell for the glory of God. Talk about a sick theology. Anyway I was thinking about the third world and people talked about demons and satanic possessions. It is big business in the third world, which is good and holy and may the make major bank. Good for them they are working the business. That is always good. Always. Anyway I was thinking of the “witch children of Africa” when a “preacher” would condemn some poor kid as a witch and that kid would be cast out, some had people pound nails into their heads, throw acid into their faces, try to burn them, suffocate them, leave them to starve and other “god” honoring responses. Of course the preacher made bank, that is good, holy and righteous. It always is, Always.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba2_T4O6mio

    As for Piper, he is a clown, like most of the circus. The guy needs to grow up and be an adult. You want to see real Satanic manifestation, go to a financial institution that starts a war or attempts to crash an economy, people who sell arms to both sides of a conflict they themselves created for pure profit, which of course is holy. Always. Go to the CEO’s that sold their souls for money when investors lost their shirts. This to is good and should be repeated. Sorry if that offends, this guy and the entire bus load of “preachers” have offended some of us for years, the difference is they get paid for it, some quite well.

    Sorry dee if this is offensive, please feel free to delete it, I trust your judgement, thanks for the voice, Mr. Piper if you read this, think a bit on what you say, maybe you should listen to different voices.


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    Lyme disease can cause symptoms similar to that woman’s. Caused by parasites. How many people in other countries could also suffer from similar symptoms.


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        Sopwith wrote:

        

    demon opression and posessions indeed can and do occur.

        I do hope you know that I believe that to be true. But I also believe that we must be careful to approach this with a clear view and eliminate all other possibilities such as mental or physical problems before diagnosing demons.


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    zooey111 wrote:

    The diagnosis? A medication change had caused me to become incoherent.Once they cleared the stuff out of my body, & rehydrated me,

    Thank you for sharing this experience. This is exactly what I am driving at. We must rule out the physical and psychiatric before crying demon.


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    @ Joy:
    Good one.


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    brian wrote:

    orry dee if this is offensive, please feel free to delete it, I trust your judgement, thanks for the voice, Mr. Piper if you read this, think a bit on what you say, maybe you should listen to different voices.

    Over the past 5 years, I have come increasingly to believe that we should listen to all opinions, even the harsh one. If Christians can’t take it, then they need to reread the New Testament. We are called to face opinions and give an answer for why we say and do what we don in the name of God. I appreciate you willingness to express that,

    And I agree with you thoughts on “burning in hell for the glory of God.” We had one man comment on this blog a couple of years back who said that he did not know if his disabled kids would be in heaven and he was just fine with that. How very sad.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Ken, read my story. Read about what my Mom experienced with pancreatic cancer, and read what I did because I was under the John Piper kool-aide. My Mom suffered enough, the last thing she needed was a brainwashed idiot telling her that her cancer wasa gift from God just becuase John Piper thinks so. Some of this stuff backfired in horrednous ways.

    I did read some of it, but not all.

    I haven’t read Piper’s book, though I did read a sermon of his on cancer and suffering in which I didn’t find anything particularly objectionable (but a short sermon won’t cover everything).

    I’m sorry for any extra pain caused to your mother, but can you blame Piper for this? His book may make statements that are out of line with the NT on the subject of suffering. He may make statements that modern western Christians do no want to hear (this is very common these days – God’s severity, wrath, holiness …). Don’t forget that if Piper is seriously off on this subject, he will be subject to stricter judgement for it.

    By your own admission you swallowed what he said, but you have to take responsibility for this, though if you were a young Christian without much knowledge of the faith, there is no need to beat yourself up over this. We’ve all done it.

    Anyone who even attempts to deal with the suffering in the world is going to have to demolish the distorted picture of God as simply being ‘loving’. Whatever their view of God’s role in suffering, you are not under obligation to believe it unless they can show it clearly from the bible.

    Believe me I have read an enormous amount of Christian literature in my time, and some of it of very dubious value – e.g. Hal Lindsay’s end-time speculations, or OTT charismatic stuff. It was me that chose to do this, and over time I have gradually learned more to sort the wheat from the chaff.

    There is no substitute for reading the Book, this is always edifying!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    And where’s the Holy Spirit in all this? Out to lunch?

    The Holy Spirit has no role to play in this system. Rules have been substituted for his sanctification work in the believer’s life. And the Holy Spirit cannot be mapped to anyone else in the marriage in a way that supports hierarchy, so no need for him!

    So ha-Ruach is free to blow like the wind outside of where He’s NOT welcome. (I’ve even felt the breeze in Bronydom.) Until those with all the Rules and Heirarchy find themselves not only Out to Lunch but Left Behind.


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    Ken wrote:

    Anyone who even attempts to deal with the suffering in the world is going to have to demolish the distorted picture of God as simply being ‘loving’.

    Ken I wonder if you’d mind expanding on this? The classic problem of evil has always been a fascination of mine as a thought experiment. I always learn new insights from how people address it, and what I quoted above seems to hint at an approach that I haven’t encountered often.


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    LT wrote:

    It’s really difficult because by design these cults heavily pressure you to bring all your friends and family members in as well. So when you finally figure out that something is terribly wrong it may mean that you have to leave your friends and families behind to get free. That’s a big part of why people stay even when they know they should leave.

    So true. It’s also difficult when a child raised in this environment decides to leave upon reaching the age of majority. Doing so often means (s)he will lose friends and family.


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    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Ken wrote:

    Anyone who even attempts to deal with the suffering in the world is going to have to demolish the distorted picture of God as simply being ‘loving’.

    Ken I wonder if you’d mind expanding on this? The classic problem of evil has always been a fascination of mine as a thought experiment. I always learn new insights from how people address it, and what I quoted above seems to hint at an approach that I haven’t encountered often.

    I have heard this approach quite often in reformed circles. The emphasis is on the holiness of God, I think. A holy God cannot tolerate sin. He can’t even look at us, unless we are covered with the righteousness of Christ. Or something to that effect.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    LT wrote:

    It’s really difficult because by design these cults heavily pressure you to bring all your friends and family members in as well. So when you finally figure out that something is terribly wrong it may mean that you have to leave your friends and families behind to get free. That’s a big part of why people stay even when they know they should leave.

    So true. It’s also difficult when a child raised in this environment decides to leave upon reaching the age of majority. Doing so often means (s)he will lose friends and family.

    Been there. Our ex-elders told us we might have to choose between our children and the church. We chose our children.


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    Ken wrote:

    but can you blame Piper for this? His book may make statements that are out of line with the NT on the subject of suffering. He may make statements that modern western Christians do no want to hear

    Yes, I can certainly blame Piper for the effects of his distorted teaching. Why should we not blame teachers of false doctrines for the effects of those doctrines on real people? The Bible tells us to refute false teaching, not diminish it or ignore it.

    You and I keep coming back to the same issue WRT Piper and the others. They twist Scripture. They insert their own words into the texts. They engage in deceptive use of language. I do not understand why you, as a conservative, find those things acceptable. I think you strongly disapprove of “liberals” who do things like that. Is it acceptable because Piper agrees with you on an issue/s? I think we need to take a principled approach to hermeneutics and a disciplined one, as well, if we are to get what the Holy Spirit is communicating to us and teaching us. I don’t want another human interposing himself/herself and his/her ideas between me and the Holy Spirit.

    No one forced John Piper to grab every microphone he can find and tweet his every thought on every topic. He is responsible for every last woman who has been abused as a result of his male-dominance doctrine. He is responsible for every single marriage that is failing or has failed or has never come to maturity because of his adolescent he-man view of masculinity. I don’t care what he calls it; I’m calling it what it actually is.

    You may have already answered this question back on another thread, but I asked you before Christmas whether or not you would love and care for your wife if you were not placed in authority over her as her “head.” I put “head” in quotes not because I deny that the text says kephale, but only to highlight that I dispute the notion that it means “authority over” which meaning you attach to it. Would you love her and care for her if you were not ordained as her boss? Somehow I think your love and care for her would not change, but I would like to hear from you your thoughts on that.

    And, while I’m at it, do you think it is acceptable for Grudem and the other manly dudes at the ESV to start an entirely new heading, paragraph and sentence at Ephesians 5:22 with an imperative–Submit–that is nowhere an imperative in Ephesians 5? “Submitting” is only used in the subordinate clause of 5:21 where it is used to *describe* what life in Christ for both males and females looks like. Nowhere does “submit” appear in the text which we mark off as 5:22, and the place where “submit” does occur is clearly in the context of a mutual and reciprocal submission without distinction.

    How does a translator with any integrity *at all* and who markets their product as “essentially literal” do that and why would they do that if they have integrity? How does the vaunted John Piper build an entire empire on that kind of trickery and why do so many give him a pass on this blatant misuse and abuse of the word of God?


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    refugee wrote:

    I have heard this approach quite often in reformed circles. The emphasis is on the holiness of God, I think.

    I think Ken has a point if he is only talking about those who think of God as *only* loving. He is also holy. The problem, IMO, is when we get these two things out of balance, and the place they are balanced is at the cross and in Christ himself. That is where both the holiness of God *and* his love is on display simultaneously, speaking in human terms. IMO, one cannot fully appreciate the extent of God’s love and Jesus’ sacrifice without a good understanding of his holiness.

    Not sure what you mean by “can’t look on sin.” I would need the actual reference they are using to check that out. It sounds like Sproul’s somewhat infamous “God damn you” he attributed to God at T4G.


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    Oops, I have a comment to Refugee in moderation due, I think, to quoting Sproul. He should not use such language. 😉


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Not sure what you mean by “can’t look on sin.”

    Not only did God look upon our sin, he lived with us. This is one of those statements that do not make sense in light of the Bible.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    He should not use such language.

    Double grin!


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    dee wrote:

        Sopwith wrote:
        
    demon opression and posessions indeed can and do occur.
        I do hope you know that I believe that to be true. But I also believe that we must be careful to approach this with a clear view and eliminate all other possibilities such as mental or physical problems before diagnosing demons.

    Sure.

    Another story Dee, Doctors got this person on some heavy drugs, no hope for a normal life, they say, has to be watched the remainder of their lives.

    (bump) 

    Then someone asked me to ‘help’.

    Scary. (very)

    At first, I said, ‘no’.

    ..then later, ‘events’ changed my mind.

    Krunch !

    I went and with permission, rebuked the named demon and it stopped tormenting this individual and left. Today, as far as I can tell this individual is living a normal life, without reoccurrence.

    Recovery occurred overnight, to the amazement of all who were acquainted with this individual’s situation and prior behavior.

    The Lord is good, and pretty smart as well.

    Praise you, Jesus!  🙂

    ATB

    Sopy


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    @ LT:

    Thanks for the link LT. To be fair, I saw nothing in the way of craziness in Robison’s preaching. To me it was just your typical-garden-variety-fundamentalist-preacher-rant against Godless liberals such as myself. What’s got me in a dither is where all that moolah he collects for poor African children is going. Digging around online for financial transparency is a fool’s errand because Robison has categorically stated in so many words that it’s none o’ yer beeswax where the money goes.


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    @ refugee:
    Well I can accept the reformed position to a certain extent. It certainly has a non complicated answer to the problem of evil. In short; This stuff happens because this is the way God wants it to and God is sovereign with a capital S so that’s the way it is. I find it surprisingly and refreshingly fatalistic and I can see why some people choose it as a way of dealing with the injustices we all see occur during our time on this pale blue dot.

    Also I’m sure I’m not presenting the proper scope and breadth of the reformed position with any justice, so I could be (probably am) off.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Nowhere does “submit” appear in the text which we mark off as 5:22, and the place where “submit” does occur is clearly in the context of a mutual and reciprocal submission without distinction.

    Yep! Actually Paul mentions what I call a “string of participles” for all believers:

    * redeeming (the time) v.16
    * being filled (with the spirit) v.18
    * speaking (in psalms, hymns) v.19
    * singing & making melody v.19
    * giving thanks (to God) v.20
    * submitting (to one another) v.21

    And 1 Cor. 7 reinforces the mutual responsibility and authority both husband and wife have toward one another in intimate relations.


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    @ Victorious:

    Bruce Ware, he of “woman bears a derivative image of God”, says no way is the submission in 5:21 mutual, because kids in the church don’t submit to parents so therefore it can’t mean that men submit to women in the church. No, seriously. These are the thinking skills employed by an employee of the SBC who has a Ph.D. at SBTS. I’m not quite sure if it is worse that he cannot see the fallacy and so continues to teach it or that he sees the fallacy and still teaches it because it works for his interests.

    Oh, and thanks for drawing attention to the fact that where “submit” occurs it is *not* an imperative and is not prescriptive there, though I do think that imitating Christ entails submitting to others’ interests. Mutually. Obviously these guys don’t know how an organism works, and the Body is an organic thing, not an organization.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Bruce Ware, he of “woman bears a derivative image of God”, says no way is the submission in 5:21 mutual, because kids in the church don’t submit to parents so therefore it can’t mean that men submit to women in the church. No, seriously. These are the thinking skills employed by an employee of the SBC who has a Ph.D. at SBTS.

    Bruce Ware was a regular at Mars Hill.
    They referred to him as the “theological warrior in khaki pants.”
    Ya can’t make this stuff up!
    https://www.facebook.com/marshillchurch/posts/10151773489482241


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    TedS. wrote:

    Bruce Ware was a regular at Mars Hill.
    They referred to him as the “theological warrior in khaki pants.”

    And Grudem as well. Birds of a feather… The theological part I suppose is relative, and the warrior certainly fits. Personally I think they all doth protest too much.


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    dee wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    Not sure what you mean by “can’t look on sin.”

    Not only did God look upon our sin, he lived with us. This is one of those statements that do not make sense in light of the Bible.

    I am not sure anymore what the exact teaching was. It was presented in the context of Isaiah 1, I think, where he lamented and the angel had him touch a burning coal to his tongue to purify it. (?) Or I might be mixing that part up with Sproul’s Holiness of God conference that I attended a number of years ago. Anyhow, the teacher went on and on about how God is holy and there is no sin in him and he cannot (because of his nature? chooses not to?) look on sin, and that is why he sent his son, so that believers can be covered in the son’s righteousness, so that when God looks at them, he sees Jesus, and not their sin. I’m sure I’m muddling it. But I also think I must have heard it more than once in the long time we were going to a hyper-calvinist, hyper-patriarchal church, or I might not remember any details at all.


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    TedS. wrote:

    Bruce Ware was a regular at Mars Hill.
    They referred to him as the “theological warrior in khaki pants.”
    Ya can’t make this stuff up!

    I suppose this is what was said so Ware would be accepted into the he man, hipster world that was Mars Hill.


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    refugee wrote:

    Anyhow, the teacher went on and on about how God is holy and there is no sin in him and he cannot (because of his nature? chooses not to?) look on sin, and that is why he sent his son, so that believers can be covered in the son’s righteousness, so that when God looks at them, he sees Jesus, and not their sin. I’m sure I’m muddling it.

    It’s called “Under the Blood”, where Christ does NOT actually Redeem or Renew us, just Cover Us Up with a coat of Jesus-red paint. (What ever happened to Christus Victor?) Whenever you see some Mike Warnke type absolving himself from all blame by saying “It’s Under the Blood”, THAT’s what he’s saying.


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    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Ken I wonder if you’d mind expanding on this? The classic problem of evil has always been a fascination of mine

    A God of love and being almighty would be obligated to intervene to stop the human suffering we see around us. That he doesn’t is either because either he is not all loving or he doesn’t have the ability (or doesn’t exist).

    My point on not making love the sole attribute of God is that you could well understansd anyone looking at the suffering going on around them and ask the question ‘how could a God of love allow this’. I’m not denying God is love, but there are many other aspects of this to put in the equation. His holiness, our sinfulness and rebellion, his love of righteousness being more than his love of people, the fact most people do not want a God who intervenes in their lives unless it is to bless or heal them, without conditions.

    Most of my Christian life has been in a setting where the love of God has been over-emphasised. I believe it is mentioned only once in the first 5 books of the bible – the law, and in Acts detailing the early church and giving several ‘gospel presentations’ the love of God is not mentioned at all. The early church did not tell unbelievers that God loved them (nor that he had a wonderful plan for their life either!).

    The bible does indeed say God is love, but many western evangelicals have turned this around to say Love is God, a wishy-washy tolerant indulgent kind of love, from a harmless grandfather kind of God who would never enter into judgment with anyone, certainly not let them reap what they so or bring calamity on them for their wrong-doing.

    Some here may have been brought up on a fire and brimstone God, in which case they need to hear about the love and grace of God, but as ever, the bible keeps a perfect balance between these two aspects. Overall though, I think the lovey-dovey kind of God is the problem in the western church, a distortion of the truth, and something that makes the very real issue of suffering harder to deal with.


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    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    Well I can accept the reformed position to a certain extent. It certainly has a non complicated answer to the problem of evil. In short; This stuff happens because this is the way God wants it to and God is sovereign with a capital S so that’s the way it is.”

    “…In’shal’lah. Al’lah’u Akbar!”

    Because both Calvin and Mohammed had the same solution for the problem of evil: By removing the “God is All-Good” part of the paradox and putting God beyond Good or Evil. God Wills what God Wills, and who are we to call it evil? “He is THE CREATOR and We are The Creature”, again “In’shal’lah…”

    And in doing so, you end up with a God who is OMNIPOTENT but NOT benevolent, a God whose prime attribute is Infinite POWER and POWER alone, able to Force His WILL on everything. And you end up excusing the power trip because “He’s GOD”.

    Someone said “Islam focuses on the Power and Omnipotence of God, Christianity focuses on the Nature and Love of God.” And the Truly Reformed have Islamized the Reformation.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I don’t think anyone intends to dismiss demonic possession, but only to say that there *may* be treatable conditions which mimic demonic possession, or at least our conception of it.

    doubtful wrote:

    Today I am fully convinced that there is no such thing as demons.

    A couple years ago in a SS class at a moderate mainline denomination a NT passage where Jesus (allegedly) cast out a demon was part of the lesson. The teacher assured us that this did not happen, that it had to be some medical condition and listed a few possibilities, and nobody said anything. I threw myself into that and said that indeed there are a plentitude of conditions that can include symptoms which the overly enthusiastic can call demonic but that did not rule out the possibility that there was such a thing as demonic possession any more than the presence of apples and oranges ruled out the possibility of pears and plums. Only one other person in the class agreed with me. So the idea that there is no such a thing as a demon and therefore no demonic activity toward humans is pretty prevalent in some circles.

    I have a problem with this when it comes to scripture. If the NT says that Jesus case out a demon (demons) then either he did or he did not. If he did not then (a) he knowingly pretended to and is therefore a fraud, (b) he honestly thought he did but was mistaken/ignorant about the truth of the matter, or ( c) the bible is incorrect in reporting this and is therefore unreliable. These are real issues in my opinion. IMO, other life forms (spirit beings) which we do not understand is easier to believe than believing that somebody rose from the dead, for crying out loud. Not that easier or harder to believe is directly correlated with truth or not–just a side comment.

    But then, I have interacted with something which I think was demonic (a presence) and I have seen in Africa something which the missionaries thought was demonic. And I have seen right much bizarre behavior due to diagnosed conditions especially that year I was on staff at a state mental hospital. I do not discount any of it, medical or demonic.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Exactly. Those are obviously very attractive ideologies. Heck I’ve seen nihilist atheists go at life and fate with the same sort of fatalism and ennui.


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    @ Ken:
    Thanks Ken, I very much appreciate your explanation.


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    Ken wrote:

    A God of love and being almighty would be obligated to intervene to stop the human suffering we see around us. That he doesn’t is either because either he is not all loving or he doesn’t have the ability (or doesn’t exist).

    There is another one: Becasue He gave us dominion over the earth so why aren’t we doing more to stop evil? We have come a long way with cures for diseases, inventions, freedom of the individual and toppling dictators, building more stable buildings that resist fires, earthquakes, etc.

    There is more to it but I thought I would throw that in


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    Albuquerque Blue wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Exactly. Those are obviously very attractive ideologies. Heck I’ve seen nihilist atheists go at life and fate with the same sort of fatalism and ennui.

    Determinism. There’s a Father Brown Mystery (“Doom of the Darnaways”) where Determinism is a major plot point.


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    @ Lydia:

    You struck a nerve with me. In my opinion, the lion’s share of the ‘problem of evil’ is really our own problem, not God’s. Grant it, earthquakes, tsunamis, comet strikes, and just plain old death by old age and decrepitude are beyond our pay grades. But the rest of the stuff? That’s on our own dime. God is not in charge, we are.


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    @ Nancy:
    What do you think about the boy who was having what sound like violent seizures? (I am blanking on which Gospel that’s in.)

    The thing is, a *lot* of people who lived when the Gospels were written attributed things they didn’t understand to the supernatural, whether those things were benign or baffling or terrifying or simply not part of anything that people experienced on a day to day basis. I do *not* believe that God would forcibly intervene (so to speak) in the minds of the writers in order to put certain events in a perspective that squares with our current understanding of physical and mental illness, any more than contemporary scientific ideas were imposed on the people who wrote and compiled the 1st few chapters of Genesis. In both cases, it would have messed with the brains of the writers in a terrible way, and the point of all of these passages is *not* about literal scientific or medical data. These are not lab reports or case studies, nor were they ever meant to be.


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    @ numo:
    I think we have the freedom to say that something miraculous occurred in the lives of the demoniacs who are mentioned in the Gospels without necessarily having to believe that all of them were actually afflicted by literal demons. The point is that when Christ touches the afflicted, he heals them.

    Also, if you get into some study of views of demons and Satan in Christ’s time, it is apparent that there are *many* differences between popular views of the time and what developed over time in xtianity. There were also conflicting views on these things within Judaism of the time. Writer Jeffrey Burton Russell is a good place to start for this topic, and i suspect that Amy-Jill Levine probably addresses this in her annotated NT as well. (Which is specifically intended for Jewish readers.)


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Grant it, earthquakes, tsunamis, comet strikes, and just plain old death by old age and decrepitude are beyond our pay grades.

    This was one teaching I remember from my former cult 🙂 :God created a lot of natural “laws” that, if violated, could result in suffering. For example, the law of gravity. Violating that “law” by jumping from a high building is not “an act of God.” Tectonic plates are a part of the created world. When they shift, there’s potential for tsunamis and earthquakes. God isn’t personally involved in these and does not love those hurt by these disasters any less. (Though I wish He’d given mankind the same innate sixth sense that animals seem to have about such disasters.) Even our bodies were designed to age and get sick. It’s not God’s personal judgement when they do.

    As for the rest, I agree with you that mankind is responsible for much suffering.


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    Ken wrote:

    A God of love and being almighty would be obligated to intervene to stop the human suffering we see around us. That he doesn’t is either because either he is not all loving or he doesn’t have the ability (or doesn’t exist).

    This seems like you are limiting God to this either/or option. If God is who he says he is, isn’t there other options? This thinking puts God in a box of human thinking.


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    @ Bridget:
    The point about God cannot be loving and almighty or he would stop human suffering is the objection to Christianity formulated by atheists rather than my view. I probably compressed it too much to try to keep it short. It was iirc Betrand Russell’s big objection to the biblical God.

    As you go on to say, there is far more to it than just these two aspects to take into account.


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    @ Bridget:

    I think Ken was just restating the way that the problem of evil is usually framed and not stating it as his view. At least that’s how I’ve seen the problem of evil framed by others–either God is all-sovereign or he is all good because evil could not exist if God is both all-sovereign and all-good. As others have said I think there is more to the question than this dichotomy, and I think Ken thinks so, too. I don’t have a firm grasp on what that might be. Just speculation and a suspicion that the answer lies beyond our ability to understand which is pretty much what you said about it being beyond our box of human thinking.


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    @ Ken:

    There you go repeating what I said to explain what you said while I was still typing. Great minds think alike on *most* things, and where they differ, I am right. 😉


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ LT:
    Thanks for the link LT. To be fair, I saw nothing in the way of craziness in Robison’s preaching. To me it was just your typical-garden-variety-fundamentalist-preacher-rant against Godless liberals such as myself. What’s got me in a dither is where all that moolah he collects for poor African children is going. Digging around online for financial transparency is a fool’s errand because Robison has categorically stated in so many words that it’s none o’ yer beeswax where the money goes.

    I just looked them up and watched some clips. I forgot that Holy Fire was so off the rails that they made him come back and preach a whole new sermon. The first go was highly insulting as he called Gateway members a “bunch of arm waving Namby Pamby Christians”. Take 2 was less confrontational and that’s the one on the website. You may want to look at the 1-4-10 sermon. http://gatewaypeople.com/sermons/65588. That doesn’t look too heavily edited. You get to hear about Sampson in James’ house grinding the stones plus other prophetic revelations that put him on par with Daniel and Isaiah. He claims God speaks to him audibly. In fact, he has previously claimed that he speaks with God regularly and that God’s voice is more clear than Robert’s in any given conversation. He becomes fairly unhinged in the 1-4-10 sermon. The people in the two rows in front of me were showered with gleekage and tears etc as he shakes and contorts and holds a bizarre scream fest/conversation with Robert and some other eiders as though he has completely forgotten he was preaching to thousands. I’ve never been to a fundamentalist service so maybe this is just “normal”.

    As for the financials: Indiana Jones couldn’t unearth those. But he has three generations of family members all in high paid “jobs” inside his empire. He spreads the wealth and it is expansive.


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    Picking up the recent (and age-old) theme of how/why a God who was both all-powerful and loving can allow evil and suffering…

    Two factors are often overlooked in this debate: 1) God’s own choice to suffer, and 2) an eternal perspective.

    On the first point: God created a human world that he loved, that could reject him. When he joined that world as one of us, he chose the cross: a path that involved great suffering, in order to achieve a greater goal – not just for himself, either. Now, obviously, choosing to suffer in order to achieve something is very different from being subjected to suffering for which one cannot see any purpose. Nevertheless, it does at least throw this into the equation: suffering can be worth it, as anyone knows who has overcome setbacks and heartache to achieve something. Look at it this way: why would an all-powerful God choose to suffer? Presumably because a “perfect world” would not actually be free of suffering.

    But that’s no use to someone who suffers powerlessly and dies through war/famine/disease etc; so on to the eternal perspective. How does a loving God who is all-powerful deal with the fact that humans of his own creation suffer and die? Well, one way would be to have some means up his sleeve whereby he could raise us up to a life after death that was so good, that even those who had led the cruellest and most meaningless mortal lives would look back and say, this reward makes it all worthwhile. Actually, that’s the heart and soul of the gospel of Jesus’ Kingdom: our ultimate hope is in the resurrection of the dead.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    an eternal perspective.

    That is a good idea which at times and in ways has been assumed and implemented by people in some very awful ways. I am not arguing with the idea itself but rather with some of the resultant human behaviors from taking that idea and running with it.


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    @ refugee:

    Very thoughtful reply. I’m with you on all of it. Especially the part I highlighted here.
    I do think people sometimes pile onto something based on tidbits rather than trying to gain a real opinion on their own through fully looking into something themselves, which is dangerous. But it takes time indeed. I’ve taken to just reading scripture this year more than controversy, with no agenda except to grow closer to God. That’s just where I am.


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      __

    “Growing Closer To God in 2015 By Reading His Word ?”

    hmmm…

    Jackie said: 

    “I’ve taken to just reading scripture this year more than controversy, with no agenda except to grow closer to God. That’s just where I am.” 

    —> Wonderful idea!

    Count me in!  🙂

    ATB

    “Let the storm rage on, the cold never bothered me anyway…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnyw_WhVaTY

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. “Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your ‘joy’ may be made full…” ~Jesus

    (smiley face goes here)

    Sopy


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     __

    “Close To You, Jesus…”

    hmmm…

    Nick Bulbeck said:

    “Actually, that’s the heart and soul of the gospel of Jesus’ Kingdom: our ultimate hope is in the resurrection of the dead…”

     *

    I will keep you close to me Jesus, 

    cuz this ‘Life’ is not da end…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mDltYWwOBA

    Cheeeeeese !

    I am the ‘re-direct-ion’ N’ da life… ~ Jesus

    (grin)

    Those who ‘believe’ in Him shall never… “die”.

    huh?

    Eternity is a long ‘song’.

    learn ta ‘sing’ it well!

    Blessings !

    Sopy


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      __

    “He Shall Bruise thy Head?” 

    “The LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel…”
    ~Genesis 3:14-15

    Hey,Nick Bulbeck

    Man chose ta ‘break’ himself in da garden.

    Yet,

    God chose to ‘make a promise’…

    Evil will be vanquished.

    What!?!

    (bump)

    God keeps His promises.

    🙂

    YaHoooooooooooo!

    —> Satan, Get outa my life!, ya just a keep me ‘hanging on’…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3ImzSKRTI

    Sopy


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Great minds think alike on *most* things, and where they differ, I am right.

    Now I’ll have to mull over the most diplomatic way of answering this …

    🙂


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    dee wrote:

    h

    dee wrote:

    There is no evidence, that is precisely the problem. Had the woman been examined by doctors, then there would have been some corroboration.

    Thisis a very interesting thread, I am sorry I am late to it. I practice medicine in an ED (ER). The confounder to this logical suggestion above is that demonic posession would never be considered with this presentation, much less diagnosed. I might have a suspicion as a Christian in the course of seeing a psychotic patient, but if I made that my diagnosis, I would lose my job. A physician assumes a materialistic explanation to illness. You will be hard-pressed to find a physician that would corroborate a diagnosis of demonic posession. Yet, the Bible clearly teaches that demonic posession is a fact. I have no answer to help differentiate the two. TAking a person with these symptomsto an emergency medical setting would never yield a corroboration of demonic posession-even though that might be the case.