Church Focused or Celebrity Focused? Jonathan Edwards and Alice Cooper

"Drinking beer is easy. Trashing your hotel room is easy. But being a Christian, that's a tough call. That's rebellion." -Alice Cooper link

400px-Alice_Cooper_Live_in_London_2012-10-28
Alice Cooper 2012

Today I learned that Alice Cooper is a *born again* Christian and doesn't like celebrity Christians. After proclaiming, "No way!" I did further reading and learned that it is true. I also learned that he did not bite the head off of a live chicken or a live bat and did not get the name of Alice Cooper from an Ouija board which somewhat relieved me. I was trying to figure out how I was going to explain this Alice Cooper Christian thing if animal heads were getting bitten off. From the Gospel Herald:

In a candid article from DC Beacon, Cooper publicly spoke at length for the first time about his love for God, despite the fact he continues to record and tour a theatrical horror-style show.

"My life is dedicated to follow Christ," Cooper declared.

According to DC Beacon, Cooper, who legally changed his name from Vince Furnier, has been credited with paving the way for performers such as Marilyn Manson. However, he contended that his act always had "a sense of humor" and never skewed political or religious.

"I grew up in a Christian household," Cooper said in a video posted on CNS News. "My dad was a pastor, and he was an evangelist for 25 years. I used to go up and do missionary work with him with the Apaches in Arizona. My grandfather was a pastor for 75 years, so I grew up in a Christian home."

From the UK's Independent:

If he really believed it all at the time he was drinking a bottle of whisky a day, and sleeping with every groupie who threw herself at him, he must surely have thought he was in trouble? “Oh, absolutely,” says Cooper again. “When I was at my height, I thought: 'If this plane is going down now, I'm going directly to Hell. I know that I owe my soul to Christ, but I'm betting that I can go one more day.'” When he finally sobered up, he realized he couldn't. For a moment, he thought he would have to give up being Alice Cooper, but luckily his pastor disagreed. “He said,” says Cooper, in the way you say something when you think you've won an argument, “'does God make mistakes?'”

Does he believe the Bible is the literal word of God? “Yes, true each word”. Does he believe the Old Testament? “I believe the Old Testament explicitly.” So he doesn't believe in evolution? “I believe there's evolution inside the species.” And does he think that the world was created in seven days? “Oh yes.”

God, says Cooper, “has a plan for everybody. I look at my life and I think, 'how is it possible that I didn't die?'”

According to the Gospel Herald, Cooper attends Camelback Bible Church in Arizona which he claims offers him good Bible teaching. Please notice that he does not name any celebrity pastors on the circuit, just the name of the church.

Now that he is trying to follow God's will in his life, he's made a few changes to his signature act. According to DC Beacon, some of his older repertoire is no longer performed, and any song that promotes promiscuous sex and drinking "gets the axe."

"I'm very careful about what the lyrics are," Cooper said. "I tried to write songs that were equally as good, only with a better message."

Cooper also changed his stage persona, seeing himself now as "the prophet of doom."

"Be careful! Satan is not a myth. Don't sit around pretending like Satan is just a joke," Cooper said about his new message. "I think my job is to warn about Satan."

In 'Why Alice Cooper Doesn’t Believe in ‘Celebrity Christianity’ from the website Ultimate Classic Rock, Cooper eschews the celebrity that would be offered him if he decided to "join the conference circuit."

Cooper says he doesn’t believe in “celebrity Christianity,” because “it’s really easy to focus on Alice Cooper and not on Christ. I’m a rock singer. I’m nothing more than that. I’m not a philosopher. I consider myself low on the totem pole of knowledgeable Christians. So, don’t look for answers from me.”

This last statement got me to thinking. Why is it that we use the names of the *celebrity* pastors who head the church instead of the name of the church? I meet people all the time who say they attend John Piper's former church, Chuck Swindoll's church, the church attended by Al Mohler, Alistair Beggs church, etc. Then, we quote Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Calvin, Martin Luther, etc. as examples of really important Christians.

Why don't we speak more of the church and its members? If these are truly great leaders, shouldn't their particular church be more famous than the one guy who gives the sermon? If the pastors are truly doing their job of equipping the saints for the work of God, then the saints/church members should be the ones who are recognized by all, right?

In the early days of the church, it was the many new Christians, inspired by the Holy Spirit and encouraged by their leaders, who courageously went off to their executions in the Coliseum. Take the story of Perpetua as featured in Christianity Today. We do not know whose church she attended but we know how she stood up for the faith and died. 

We have little idea what brought Perpetua to faith in Christ, or how long she had been a Christian, or how she lived her Christian life. Thanks to her diary, and that of another prisoner, we have some idea of her last days—an ordeal that so impressed the famous Augustine that he preached four sermons about her death.

Perpetua was a Christian noblewoman who, at the turn of the third century, lived with her husband, her son, and her slave, Felicitas, in Carthage (in modern Tunis). At this time, North Africa was the center of a vibrant Christian community. It is no surprise, then, that when Emperor Septimius Severus determined to cripple Christianity (he believed it undermined Roman patriotism), he focused his attention on North Africa. Among the first to be arrested were five new Christians taking classes to prepare for baptism, one of whom was Perpetua.

…Perpetua, her friends, and her slave, Felicitas (who had subsequently been arrested), were dressed in belted tunics. When they entered the stadium, wild beasts and gladiators roamed the arena floor, and in the stands, crowds roared to see blood. They didn't have to wait long.

Immediately a wild heifer charged the group. Perpetua was tossed into the air and onto her back. She sat up, adjusted her ripped tunic, and walked over to help Felicitas. Then a leopard was let loose, and it wasn't long before the tunics of the Christians were stained with blood.

At the end, Perpetua comforted her slave. There were many more like her. They were given the name of Christ followers, not followers of a particular celebrity apostle.

Recently, I read an article called Are Your People Real? 6 Marks of a Real Christian Inspired by Jonathan Edwards by Jeremy Bouma. First note the word "your people." In the post, Bouma is addressing this to pastors. However, shouldn't they be called Christ's people? He uses this phrase again in the post. I know he doesn't mean ill of this but I think it is time we reassess these pat terms.

Then notice that he mentions Jonathan Edwards. 

In his book Religious Affection, Edwards answered his question by outlining twelve marks of genuine Christian faith. Inspired by this description, Wilson aims to provide the contemporary church with a similar description of what it means to be “real.”

But he does not mention Jonathan Edwards church. If Edwards was a great leader and equipper of the saints, then his church should be known as an incredible church that accomplished great things for the Lord. Instead, we keep talking about Edwards who was no doubt an accomplished preacher. Edwards himself said that it was important to examine the life of Christians.

Some criticized the emotional effects of the revivals. In 1746 Edwards published his important A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections, which examined the nature of true religion, which, he said, doesn't just understand the right doctrine, but touches the affections or the heart. Yet, the devil can counterfeit religious affections and imitate the conversion experience, producing outward emotional responses without a new heart of faith. The only way to tell if a conversion experience is genuine is to look at the individual's life. Humility and the love and pursuit of holiness mark true Christians. Those who simply boast of their experience without transformed lives are merely false professors of religion.

And yet, we still talk about Edwards as opposed to the members of the church and what they accomplished for the faith. 

Bouma lists the 6 traits that pastors should see in *your* people.

  1. Humility: Transcendent Self-Confidence
  2. Meekness: A Lamblike Disposition
  3. Contrition: The Gospel Emotion
  4. Wholeness: The Full Image of Christ
  5. Hunger: A Torrent of Spiritual Desire
  6. Perfected Love: The Mark of Marks

Is this what we should see in *your* people or in all people, including the pastors? Do we assume that the pastors are somehow separated from *their* people? Is this why we are celebrity pastor oriented rather than church oriented? Will there be a day when we hear people say "I attend First Baptist Church" and people in the community say "I have heard of that church. The people help the poor, are kind to store clerks, serve those who are sick and are fun to be around?" Or will they instead of saying "Oh yeah, that's Joe Rich and Famous' church. I see him on Fox News a lot talking about being persecuted."

I think I like Alice Cooper a whole lot more that some of these famous Christians. He doesn't want to be a Christian celebrity. May his tribe increase.

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 50:1 – Exodus 2:10 Matthew 16:13-17:9 Psalm 21:1-13 Proverbs 5:1-6

Comments

Church Focused or Celebrity Focused? Jonathan Edwards and Alice Cooper — 99 Comments

  1. Great post! I have quoted Cooper from the pulpit on more than one occasion and respect him as a performer and as a believer.

    I have two “Americanized Christianity” pet-peeves: 1. celebrity pastors and 2. misattributing churches or church members to someone other than Christ. (Actually I have many more, but these are the two most relevant to this post.)

    Unfortunately, this is not new phenomena. Paul addresses this clearly in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 when he rebukes the Corinthians for elevating church leaders over the Head of the Church (Jesus Christ). He asks the question that we should all use when confronted with ‘celebrity’ pastors: “Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” (v 13).

    When any of the famous church leaders actually redeems a sinner through their own righteousness, then I will be happy to pledge them my undying support. Until that time, they are the same as I am: a sinner saved by grace.

  2. Burwell Stark wrote:

    I have quoted Cooper from the pulpit on more than one occasion and respect him as a performer and as a believer.

    Have you ever considered starting a church in Raleigh? I’ll come!

  3. Hey, if you folks start a church in Raleigh, I will ship to you from California a very large coffee pot (brand new) that I bought to use at church events (you know the church I was just excommunicated and shunned from). I’d even spring for your first Sunday’s donuts!

  4. “First note the word ‘your people.’,

    As one who has attended some of the more notable mega-churches I find this to be an appropriate term. The head pastor (headliner) has an opening act (worship) and a warm-up guy (lead pastor or overseer) who also closes the show once Elvis has left the building (since Elvis is too important to meet and greet ticket holders). They perform on a stage not an altar to an audience not a congregation (and they use these terms). They don’t teach from the Epistles. They may throw in a couple of proof texts and the magic J word here and there, but every last one of them is performing stand-up comedy. They pause for comedic affect. They use sound effects. They make the weird funny facial expressions to emphasize a point. They raise and lower their voices to keep their audiences’ attention. They tend to use keyboard music towards the end of their message to manipulate their audience. It is a stage act – nothing more.

    Robert Morris of Gateway Church freely admits he started his career by telling jokes and putting on a ventriloquism act for other preachers as a “warm up act”. This fall he paid professional comedian Michael Jr to deliver a “sermon” where Michael Jr instructed the audience on how to tell jokes and “be” the punchline. I’m sure Jesus was howling at that one. What’s next, Whoopee cushions and laugh tracks? These men put on a professional scripted act so it’s only appropriate that they have followers and groupies.

    Perry Noble just dropped the N word at his Christmas Eve service while dressed like a hobo. http://vimeo.com/115642416 This is because he openly admits to studying and emulating stand-up comedians. And what’s more hilarious than saying “and like n*gga cuz I” as part of your sermon/stand up act celebrating the birth of our Savior? Maybe he can co-headline with Michael Richards at the next Gateway Conference. So yes, the audience is “their” people not God’s. No one pays to see Jim Gaffigan out of brand loyalty to Hot Pockets or Hormel bacon. They pay to see him make jokes about Hot Pockets and bacon. This is all about entertainment that makes you laugh, dance and feel good for about 75 minutes. Granted, I wouldn’t give Gaffigan 10% of my income to see his stage act every week. But his loyal fans and groupies are no different than the fans and groupies of Robert Morris, Perry “potty mouth” Noble, Joel Osteen, Steven Furtick and TD Jakes (all of whom have performed at Gateway). The only real difference is the tax free status and that the pastormedians make far more money. Gaffigan and his fellow comics need to ordain each other then rake in the millions tax free as “itenerant ministers”.

  5. LT wrote:

    No one pays to see Jim Gaffigan out of brand loyalty to Hot Pockets or Hormel bacon.

    I’m a Gaffigan fan. This made me lol!

  6. @ roebuck:

    I, of course, was not referring to outright child abuse/sexual abuse. I only mean that people might look at what’s going on, and just say no. These authoritarian ‘pastors’ are not going to change. Just walk away. YES, I know it’s hard, fer cryin’ out loud, but at the end of the day YOU are in charge.

  7. It’s money, it’s cool being a parishioner at a mega- church, it’s money, it’s live comics, it’s money, it’s live music, it’s money…..I often wonder just how many people in these churches, both on the stage, and in the pews actually know Jesus?

  8. ” Do we assume that the pastors are somehow separated from *their* people? ”

    Yes. And this is how too many pastors think. I remember an SBC pastors blog a few years back about how it was not wise for the pastor to have close friends in ‘their’ church.

    Can you imagine?. This sort of thinking defeats the purpose for the Body of Christ.

  9. I also learned that he did not bite the head off of a live chicken or a live bat …

    Actually Ozzy Osborne fessed up to those. According to him, he “was very drunk at the time.”

    Also, here’s some Alice Cooper quotes I heard over the years:

    About those Grand Guignol-style concerts that got all the Christians (including a younger Dee) freaking out:

    “If you want to just hear my music, you can listen to my albums. When you go to one of my concerts, you’re going there to See a Show. And I’ll give you a Show you’ll never forget!”

    And in an interview about MTV Celebrity endorsements in the 2008(?) election:

    “If you’re going to vote for somebody because your favorite Rock Star says to vote for him, you’re dumber than we are. What do we know about politics? We’re too busy onstage or on the road.”

  10. Lydia wrote:

    I remember an SBC pastors blog a few years back about how it was not wise for the pastor to have close friends in ‘their’ church.

    Can you imagine?.

    You don’t want to be emotionally involved with the pew-sitters.
    Makes it easier when you throw them under the bus.

  11. @ Lydia:

    I’ve heard a lot of people name-drop about whose church they attend, so it seems that the problem of identity goes both ways, sadly. And it’s not just lately that this has been a problem. I think that the big names are proud and boastful, but so are the fanboys and fangirls who brag about being a member of the Big Name’s church. They like being part of “his people” it seems because I suppose it makes them feel important to be a part of something Big. If they could only see that they are part of something Big that Jesus is building.

  12. @ Gram3:
    The irony is the pew sitters who name drop their church have no idea what goes on back stage and the majority only know the cult of personality from stage performances. And yes they are very proud of their celebrity pastor. They honestly believe the stage persona he has worked so hard to concoct and proud to be a part of it. Scares me for our country.

  13. @Lydia. @ Roebuck

    If it’s any help I do believe these giga-churches’ behavior is becoming more ridiculous every day. The salaries have seemed to spiral out of control in the last few years. Pastors become desperate to both grow and hold on to their financial empires at any cost. I don’t think Furtick performed fake baptisms or gave demonic dice to small children when he first started out. Noble’s been really bad all along but the N word on Christmas Eve was a new low even for him. Their actions are becoming more indefensible by the minute, which means bragging that “I go to Perry potty mouth’s giant church/amusement park” won’t have the same cachet in the future that it previously did. People don’t want to be associated with racism (Perry points out a minute before he drops the N bomb that his wife is white. He tells people that all the time because her name is Lucretia which he thinks “sounds black”. Why would it be so terrible for people to assume he’s married to a black woman? Hmmmm?)

    Praise God for forums like this where the truth can be told. As big as these churches are becoming, their back doors are also growing. The disillusioned and disenfranchised sheep need a place for respite once the betrayal sinks in that they were only an ATM all along. Please let folks know about this blog. Leaving these dysfunctional church “families” is designed by the giga-churches/cults to be quite painful – so you won’t leave. Knowing you’re not alone is restorative.

  14. I guess I’ve known Alice Cooper’s been a Christian for about 20 years now. If you check out the album “The Last Temptation,” it’s about as close as he got to having a profession of faith in his music. Good album, too.

    What I’ve loved about Cooper’s attitude in recent years is that he’s been incredibly down-to-earth about his faith. He brings it up with confidence and humility in interviews — but usually only if asked. He hasn’t thrown in with the culture warriors, isn’t afraid of Obama (or Sarah Palin or whomever we’re supposed to fear), isn’t trying to save Christmas or America. Honestly, he seems to be content to have an answer for the hope within him — and that’s pretty awesome. More celebrity converts like him, please.

  15. I do like the fact that Cooper seems to avoided the pitfall of cashing in his celebrity to sell to Christians.

    I do wish he hadn’t lent his name to help promote the likes of Michael Horton’s “White Horse Inn” back in the day. I wonder how he feels about it now……

  16. Let them destroy my works! I deserve nothing better; for all my wish has been to lead souls to the Bible, so that they might afterwards neglect my writings. Great God! if we had a knowledge of Scripture, what need would there be of any books of mine?”
    – Martin Luther

  17. Lydia wrote:

    I remember an SBC pastors blog a few years back about how it was not wise for the pastor to have close friends in ‘their’ church.

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I hear what you all are saying, but the other side of that may be to help keep down favoritism in the church. Was it the seekers movement a while back that had people in “circles” or such around the elder(s)? Way back (about 15 years ago) in my family a couple of us were going to RCIA and catholic mass while at the same time one of us was at a church which had adopted the seekers mode. When the news got out about all that there was consternation at the seeker SBC church because they thought that the person had been “plugged in.” That apparently meant they thought she had progressed to a closer circle of involvement. At the time we were all aghast at the concept–the idea of some inner circle to which one could aspire. (Apparently it didn’t take much to be re-classified as a plugged in sort, for goodness sake, if they knew so little about the person that they missed the whole catholic thing.)

    roebuck wrote:

    I only mean that people might look at what’s going on, and just say no. … YES, I know it’s hard, fer cryin’ out loud, but at the end of the day YOU are in charge.

    Yes. Amen. That does not mean that the thing to which one goes when one walks away will be perfect or that even if it is better it will stay that way, however. But failure to walk away from some things can rise to the level of being irresponsible sometimes.

  18. Lydia wrote:

    The irony is the pew sitters who name drop their church have no idea what goes on back stage and the majority only know the cult of personality from stage performances.

    Oh, I think you and I have been backstage at the same performances…

  19. I’ve seen Alice Cooper in interviews before. Even then, he struck me as being funny and smart, and matter-of-fact about his faith. He wasn’t terribly high on himself or his own fame. I really wish some of the “big-name” pastors would learn a thing or two from him.

    Cooper has a great sense of humour, too. I loved his guest shot on “The Muppet Show”! XD

  20. Gram3 wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    The irony is the pew sitters who name drop their church have no idea what goes on back stage and the majority only know the cult of personality from stage performances.
    Oh, I think you and I have been backstage at the same performances…

    I’ve been backstage at Rock concerts, I’ve been in the pastor’s office before morning services, I’ve been a teacher’s study of a ” so-called” Christian school…..I think it might shock the average lay person if they saw what was going on….

  21. K.D. wrote:

    I’ve been backstage at Rock concerts, I’ve been in the pastor’s office before morning services, I’ve been a teacher’s study of a ” so-called” Christian school…..I think it might shock the average lay person if they saw what was going on….

    I don’t doubt it, sorry to say.

    I have been behind the scenes in the ER and the OR and Labor & Delivery and Radiology and locked Psychiatric Wards and up and down the hospital halls as a nurse on night shift and I have never yet seen anything that would be morally shocking to anybody. I am not talking about people’s hidden private lives off the job, just talking about something similar to what you have said.

    I think it is a crying shame for “christian this or that” to have a worse record of on the job behavior than the health care industry.

  22. My Mom always cautioned me about ministries that were the name of the founder, and to be careful of churches where the focus was on the pastor. She has had experience with the latter. In God’s wonderful way of making good from bad, I would not be writing this had it not been for Mom’s choosing to attend a church partly because she heard good things about the pastor and ended up meeting and marrying Dad at that church. They left that church several years later partly because that pastor skipped town for a more glamorous place in a time of need and the church he left behind had no concern for that need.

    Christ said “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your love for one another” (John 13:35) The church is throwing out the words of Jesus when the focus is not on Christ and showing his love to each other, but on works, celebrity pastors, elaborate worship services, fancy buildings, etc.

  23. I disagree with Bouma. While I can’t particularly fault the bare “marks”, I think his definitions are garbage, and the fact that he singled these out among the virtues is concerning.

  24. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “If you want to just hear my music, you can listen to my albums. When you go to one of my concerts, you’re going there to See a Show. And I’ll give you a Show you’ll never forget!”

    From the for what’s worth department – I once met a very nice young woman who showed me an Alice Cooper autograph on her stomach. She told me she went to an Alice Cooper show and asked him autograph her stomach. He did and later she had the autograph tattooed over. I guess she never wanted to forget the show!

  25. Nancy wrote:

    When the news got out about all that there was consternation at the seeker SBC church because they thought that the person had been “plugged in.” That apparently meant they thought she had progressed to a closer circle of involvement. At the time we were all aghast at the concept–the idea of some inner circle to which one could aspire.

    See “The Lure of the Inner Ring” by C.S.Lewis.

  26. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    I’ve seen Alice Cooper in interviews before. Even then, he struck me as being funny and smart, and matter-of-fact about his faith. He wasn’t terribly high on himself or his own fame. I really wish some of the “big-name” pastors would learn a thing or two from him.

    Cooper has a great sense of humour, too. I loved his guest shot on “The Muppet Show”! XD

    Two more “Coop” interviews I remember, both having to do with his teenage daughters:

    “They’ve given up trying to shock me. They come in with all the Goth makeup and blazing purple hair, I go ‘Oh, yeah, I invented that look 25 years ago.’ They go ‘DAAAAAD!'”

    “When they start dating, I’m going to insist on meeting the boy first. Greet him at the door in full stage gear, bloody machete in my hand. Bring him inside where I’ll have all these prop severed heads around, then start asking him what he intends with MY daughter…”

  27. @ Nancy:
    Mega churches are all about the inner ring.it goes with the territory. Mega church pastors don’t so much end up with close friends as they do yes men and fellow travelers. Everyone in the inner ring is in on the brand management bandwagon. That is how it works. It becomes an honor for any plebe who helps pay his salary to be in his presence.

    I have learned a lot abput cult of personality.

    Anyway, when I was a kid the pastor was viewed more as an employee. I now think that was safer for all.

  28. @ Nancy:
    Also, if I had time I would look for blog piece and link to it. their concerns seem to be more about being what they saw as familiarity because “friends from pews” would not understand what being a pastor was about. As in ‘I must be set apart’.

    I think this thinking is one reason why the pastor conference circuit is such a huge business.

  29. Nancy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I’ve been backstage at Rock concerts, I’ve been in the pastor’s office before morning services, I’ve been a teacher’s study of a ” so-called” Christian school…..I think it might shock the average lay person if they saw what was going on….
    I don’t doubt it, sorry to say.
    I have been behind the scenes in the ER and the OR and Labor & Delivery and Radiology and locked Psychiatric Wards and up and down the hospital halls as a nurse on night shift and I have never yet seen anything that would be morally shocking to anybody. I am not talking about people’s hidden private lives off the job, just talking about something similar to what you have said.
    I think it is a crying shame for “christian this or that” to have a worse record of on the job behavior than the health care industry.

    Dr. Nancy,
    You’re absolutely correct. My wife is a radiation therapist and I am amazed at how professional they are ” behind the scenes.” The pastors I have been associated with could learn a thing or two from them….espcially in the compassion area…..

  30. I can’t remember what restaurant chain this was–it was some sort of steak house–but one commercial featured a person’s friend “having dinner with her friend Alice” — the Alice being Alice Cooper. 🙂

  31. Tina wrote:

    I can’t remember what restaurant chain this was–it was some sort of steak house–but one commercial featured a person’s friend “having dinner with her friend Alice” — the Alice being Alice Cooper.

    Longhorn Steakhouse ad: http://vimeo.com/26837845

  32. Katia wrote:

    Christ said “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, by your love for one another”

    Today, many of these celebrity pastors are turning the definition of love on its head-often referring to discipline as the best example of love. It is the love of God that drew me, not the fear of Him. Welcome to TWW!

  33. My rule for churches: If the pastor’s name is on the sign out front- be wary. If the pastor and the spouse is on the outside be-double wary. If either or both photos are on the sign- don’t go in. If there is a huge digital HD display with the pastor’s pictures out front and they have a huge fully packed parking lot- leave town.

  34. Loren Haas wrote:

    My rule for churches: If the pastor’s name is on the sign out front- be wary. If the pastor and the spouse is on the outside be-double wary. If either or both photos are on the sign- don’t go in. If there is a huge digital HD display with the pastor’s pictures out front and they have a huge fully packed parking lot- leave town.

    My new rules/red flags of churches to avoid:

    *Independent churches with no outside authority and checks and balances
    *Membership covenants (a way to exercise inappropriate control over adults’ lives)
    *Patriarchy/Complementarism (it’s just going to be a bunch of insufferable ‘lording it over’ people by immature men who were never required to grow up)
    *Shepherding language: this is authoritarian control of members disguised as “the warm fuzzies”
    *Biblical Counseling: Personal opinions by pastors/elders who have zero training about tough subjects such as alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual abuse, and will do more harm than good and will refuse to give people referrals to bona fide treatment that actually works
    *Lack of child abuse prevention policies
    *Requirements (even unspoken) to spend too much time with church members and not have a balanced life with outside interests and friends

  35. Michaela wrote:

    Loren Haas wrote:

    My rule for churches: If the pastor’s name is on the sign out front- be wary. If the pastor and the spouse is on the outside be-double wary. If either or both photos are on the sign- don’t go in. If there is a huge digital HD display with the pastor’s pictures out front and they have a huge fully packed parking lot- leave town.

    My new rules/red flags of churches to avoid:

    *Independent churches with no outside authority and checks and balances
    *Membership covenants (a way to exercise inappropriate control over adults’ lives)
    *Patriarchy/Complementarism (it’s just going to be a bunch of insufferable ‘lording it over’ people by immature men who were never required to grow up)
    *Shepherding language: this is authoritarian control of members disguised as “the warm fuzzies”
    *Biblical Counseling: Personal opinions by pastors/elders who have zero training about tough subjects such as alcoholism, domestic violence, sexual abuse, and will do more harm than good and will refuse to give people referrals to bona fide treatment that actually works
    *Lack of child abuse prevention policies
    *Requirements (even unspoken) to spend too much time with church members and not have a balanced life with outside interests and friends

    And how could I forget (having just been excommunicated and ordered to be shunned for opposing my pastors/elders protecting their friend a Megan’s List sex offender at church and not protecting children or revealing that information to parents and all adults):

    *Biblical Church Discipline: A way to threaten, bully, intimidate and get rid of all dissenters who raise legitimate issues.

  36. FWIW the pastor of Camelback Bible was a member of TGC. Sounds like a different kind of TGC pastor to me….maybe????….hopefully

  37. @ Michaela:

    Excellent list of red flags, Michaela! I am tempted now to add to my list any talk of “discipleship” or “mentoring” as they seem to be the same thing as “shepherding”. I used to be excited about having a mentor until I found out that meant becoming a cog in the celebrity’s wheel to further his empire.

  38. Former Fundy wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Excellent list of red flags, Michaela! I am tempted now to add to my list any talk of “discipleship” or “mentoring” as they seem to be the same thing as “shepherding”. I used to be excited about having a mentor until I found out that meant becoming a cog in the celebrity’s wheel to further his empire.

    Great additions, Former Fundy!

    And “mentoring” and “discipleship” become a way to blackmail people, turn in personal information about them to higher-ups, etc. Trust is earned!

  39. Eagle wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Where is the like button!

    Eagle wrote:

    @ Michaela:

    Where is the like button!

    Thank you, Eagle! I really appreciated your article yesterday which I found here on TWW listing all of the things wrong with the evangelical church. Excellent job!

  40. First note the word “your people.” In the post, Bouma is addressing this to pastors. However, shouldn’t they be called Christ’s people? He uses this phrase again in the post. I know he doesn’t mean ill of this but I think it is time we reassess these pat terms.

    I agree with LT on this, that calling them “your people” is actually an accurate statement. However, I think the language and terms we use is very important. One of my pet peeves is when grown women are called “girls”, but you don’t see a grown man being called a “boy”. In fact calling a grown man a “boy” is insulting; but it’s completely cool to do that exact same thing to an adult woman. Therefore it’s easy to keep women on the same level as children. I know my former church kept grown women on the same level as children. It became too much and way too gender role focused and not nearly enough Jesus focused. Maybe this is just a raw nerve for me but I do believe the language we use is important and can subconsciously shape the way we view things without necessarily realizing that’s what’s going on.

  41. one more red flag I’d like to add to the list of the things I will avoid in looking for a future church:

    *elder rule: this means that the senior pastor gets to choose ‘yes men’ to surround him. Any church member who questions the elders about something is told they are ‘bringing an accusation against an elder without cause’. (Mark Dever from Capitol Hill Baptist in Washington DC invented the 9 Marks of a Healthy Church which has spread throughout the US, omitting of course all of the abuses of the 9 Marks, which many like myself have just lived through in our churches, complete with excommunications and shunnings.)

  42. @Michaela – I once was a member of a start up church (something I’ll be wary of in the future) who supposedly had an accountability board made up of other pastors. When we ended up in conflict (because of him blasting me and basically telling me to find another church when I dared to question some things nicely), I contacted two of the pastors. Turns out he’d fired one of them awhile before, and the other one was less than worthless. I told the pastor that I was friends with a few of the leaders in his own church so that he could look me up and get character references. Needn’t have bothered, since all he did was defend my pastor and not even listen to my concerns. I told him the man needed psychological help and the church was going to fall apart soon. The last prediction came to pass, but the first one, not so much!

  43. Cassie wrote:

    One of my pet peeves is when grown women are called “girls”, but you don’t see a grown man being called a “boy”. In fact calling a grown man a “boy” is insulting; but it’s completely cool to do that exact same thing to an adult woman.

    This is why I try to pair my gendered nouns appropriately: boys with girls, women with men, gentlemen with ladies, and so forth. I’m not sure if guys and gals form an ideal pairing; people often says guys and girls, but that feels wrong for the reason you state.

    With that said, I’m more likely to reach for a truly gender neutral term like people, humankind, you all, or similar. People who identify as intersex or between genders may feel marginalized by the binary terms, and I want to avoid that if possible (ducks to avoid incoming flak).

    Sorry, that was pretty off topic. Back to the subject matter at hand… yeah, I don’t belong to my pastor. I think referring to “a pastor’s congregation” isn’t necessarily bad, but when “[the pastor’s] people” becomes the subject of undue emphasis, I’m going to want to run away.

  44. Former CLC’er wrote:

    @Michaela – I once was a member of a start up church (something I’ll be wary of in the future) who supposedly had an accountability board made up of other pastors. When we ended up in conflict (because of him blasting me and basically telling me to find another church when I dared to question some things nicely), I contacted two of the pastors….Needn’t have bothered, since all he did was defend my pastor and not even listen to my concerns. I told him the man needed psychological help and the church was going to fall apart soon. The last prediction came to pass, but the first one, not so much!

    @Cassie,

    Sorry you went through all of that. I am definitely wary of new church plants and “one-man shows”.

  45. Michaela wrote:

    Former CLC’er wrote:

    @Michaela – I once was a member of a start up church (something I’ll be wary of in the future) who supposedly had an accountability board made up of other pastors. When we ended up in conflict (because of him blasting me and basically telling me to find another church when I dared to question some things nicely), I contacted two of the pastors….Needn’t have bothered, since all he did was defend my pastor and not even listen to my concerns. I told him the man needed psychological help and the church was going to fall apart soon. The last prediction came to pass, but the first one, not so much!

    Sorry…wrong name! I meant “Former CLC’er”: Sorry you went through all of that. I am definitely wary of new church plants and “one-man shows”.

  46. @ Josh:
    “Guys ahd gals” feels *very* patronizing to me, and I’m glad you avoid it! 🙂 But what I’ve heard in church circles is “ladies” and “men.” Not “gentlemen,” which is, as you said, the proper corollary. I’d prefer “women,” myself, and i think it is used in mainlines. But evangelical/charismatic churches haven’t gotten past 1965.

  47. K.D. wrote:

    …I often wonder just how many people in these churches, both on the stage, and in the pews actually know Jesus?

    I wonder very much also. A lot of those people, judging by their fruits, may well be followers who root for their “faith” or doctrine like a fan roots for a team. They get a thrill on Sunday, but it’s no more meaningful in a spiritual sense than the crowd who paints their face and gets a thrill in the stadium. Arguably, the second crowd is better than the first, because at least they don’t drag the name of Jesus through the dirt as they worship their team’s stars. I do think the true Church does gets involved in these shows, however, but members of the true Church often move on quickly or in time as the phoniness of it becomes intolerable or they get jettisoned and shunned when they stand against it.

    I can sympathize with those who get caught up in it. Decades ago, as a young man with a great gift for public speaking (my only real talent), I dreamed of being a celeb pastor/evangelist, thought it’d all be for God’s glory. But I think God kept thwarting my attempts at getting a start in this life and finally, as a middle aged man, He allowed me to run headlong into two churches where I saw from the inside the viciousness of the celeb pastor culture. Very painful experiences for my family and me. Had to learn the hard way.

  48. Law Prof wrote:

    I can sympathize with those who get caught up in it. Decades ago, as a young man with a great gift for public speaking (my only real talent), I dreamed of being a celeb pastor/evangelist, thought it’d all be for God’s glory. But I think God kept thwarting my attempts at getting a start in this life and finally, as a middle aged man, He allowed me to run headlong into two churches where I saw from the inside the viciousness of the celeb pastor culture. Very painful experiences for my family and me. Had to learn the hard way.

    Law Prof: I was on church staff, was a seminary alumni , before my ” eyes were opened.” I could still be there….so glad I didn’t do it….I taught high school and it was another can of worms, but I was so much better off in the classroom, than on a ” church stage.”

  49. Nancy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I’ve been backstage at Rock concerts, I’ve been in the pastor’s office before morning services, I’ve been a teacher’s study of a ” so-called” Christian school…..I think it might shock the average lay person if they saw what was going on….
    I don’t doubt it, sorry to say.
    I have been behind the scenes in the ER and the OR and Labor & Delivery and Radiology and locked Psychiatric Wards and up and down the hospital halls as a nurse on night shift and I have never yet seen anything that would be morally shocking to anybody. I am not talking about people’s hidden private lives off the job, just talking about something similar to what you have said.
    I think it is a crying shame for “christian this or that” to have a worse record of on the job behavior than the health care industry.

    I can say that about most professions in which I’ve been involved, even lawyers (though they rank second lowest in terms of behind-the-scenes lack of professionalism).

  50. For all of you who had bad experiences in churches or observed bad behavior, please remember that this blog exists for your stories. Please consider writing about your experiences. Your stories could help others who have been hurt. Just let us know.

  51. K.D. wrote:
    Law Prof: I was on church staff, was a seminary alumni , before my ” eyes were opened.” I could still be there….so glad I didn’t do it….I taught high school and it was another can of worms, but I was so much better off in the classroom, than on a ” church stage.”

    Can totally relate. So glad the talent God gave me is being used in the classroom where it can do some good rather than in front of a congregation where I’d be a distraction from Jesus and would have the effect of putting the attention on the less-than-wonderful me. There is no room for celebrities in a healthy fellowship. I don’t even think there’s room for a stage or a single leader. There’s only room for people submitting one to another in a coequal manner.

  52. Alice Cooper is a resident of Phoenix and is well known for his charitable work involving youth. He sponsors a teen center on the near west side of Phoenix and has a charity show (“Alice Cooper’s Christmas Pudding”) every year. My late father once golfed with Cooper and was really impressed with him.

  53. Law Prof wrote: Can totally relate. So glad the talent God gave me is being used in the classroom where it can do some good rather than in front of a congregation where I’d be a distraction from Jesus and would have the effect of putting the attention on the less-than-wonderful me. There is no room for celebrities in a healthy fellowship. I don’t even think there’s room for a stage or a single leader. There’s only room for people submitting one to another in a coequal manner.

    Yes, yes, yes. But has anyone found this in a church? A healthy church, that is.

  54. numo wrote:

    I’d prefer “women,” myself, and i think it is used in mainlines.

    I do not think we can come to any consensus about this because it has to do with what one is used to and how one understands the motivation behind it. I really do not like the word “women” except in very formal situations. Like it is all right for the organization to be called “women of the church” but the word “women” itself reminds me of my grandmother, a victorian of her time who always wore a girdle and black hose with her old timey black shoes and for sure carried around her bible and sometimes I think had some doily she was crocheting in her purse because one must never sit down with empty hands. She was formidable. For sure nobody would ever have called her a girl or a gal or a dame or used lady as a form of address. It would have to be ma’am. I just think dear goodness help us have we not come so much farther than that? With that in my memory bank “women” sounds stodgy and stiff and schoolmarmish to me. Mostly though I just try not to think about it. But, no, I do not have chapter and verse on that one.

  55. So thanks to moving to a new job, we’ve been church hunting recently. The church we went to this morning was:

    1. UMC
    2. Very large (five services, 3 traditional and 2 contemporary, with 2 Sunday school hours)
    3. Has this strange rotating pastor system, where if you stay at one service every week, you’ll hear from the senior pastor and the associate pastors at least once a month. (Which the more I think about, the more I like)
    4. Had someone with a name tag who recognized that we were strangers and tracked us down as soon as we sat in our pews.

    I was a bit “whoa, hello there…” about the lady coming to talk to us, on the other hand I thought it was cool that she recognizes everyone else on sight. The rotating pastor system sounds like a good way to handle multiple simultaneous services. I like to see some real connections between contemporary and traditional services, if you’re going to split them up. I think you should be praying for everyone in the church, hearing all the pastors, etc. Otherwise, you’re two churches that happen to occur simultaneously and in the same building.

  56. @ Nancy:
    I think it’s a generational thing, and ikwym about those sorts of people. I once decidef to sit up near the front at church, not realizing that i was sitting where one of the people my mom would privately refer to as “old bats” had laid claim to (unoficially) many decades prior. If looks could kill, i would have been dead on the spot. (I was all of 16 or 17 and didn’t realize that the hardcore Church Lady types resented any/all infringement on what they believed was their territory.) Needless to say, i never sat in *that* part of the right front pews again!

    But, when i was on my long journey through evangelical/charismatic territory, ladies/girls was the way we were always addressed, and even “ladies” came across as patronizing more often than not. In my mind, a lady was a particular sort of person who basically had ceased to exist (gracious, kind, well-dressed – even on a shoestring budget, the sort of person who could gently assist young people with social graces/skills and the like – though i have met more than a few black women who truly are ladies, but in my narrow, mostly white world, they were gone). When we were referred to collectively as “ladies,” i knew we weren’t that kind of lady – it seemed barely a step up from girls/gals. Keep in mind that all of these places were soft comp, so…

    As for “ma’am,” i wish people still said that! The young head pharmacist at my drugstore addresses all women a few decades older than himself as “dear,” which makes me pretty annoyed. I mean, what happened to retail employees (something i did alot of myself) being taught to address customers as ma’am/sir??!! I don’t want to sound stodgy, but to me, that meant that customers were supposed to be treated with respect, even when they were acting like jerks.

    Sorry for going so far off-topic!

  57. numo wrote:

    As for “ma’am,” i wish people still said that! The young head pharmacist at my drugstore addresses all women a few decades older than himself as “dear,” which makes me pretty annoyed. I mean, what happened to retail employees (something i did alot of myself) being taught to address customers as ma’am/sir??!! I don’t want to sound stodgy, but to me, that meant that customers were supposed to be treated with respect, even when they were acting like jerks.

    I wonder if there aren’t geographical influences in that area… I thought that addressing your elders as sir or ma’am had more traction in the southern US than where I live in the north. While I don’t have a large amount of experience from which to draw, I feel like I’ve gotten almost no resistance to “Thank you sir,” but if looks could kill, I’d be dead from saying “Thank you ma’am.” So I generally just smile and say “Thank you.” If I were in the south, it might well be different..?

  58. Josh wrote:

    I thought that addressing your elders as sir or ma’am had more traction in the southern US than where I live in the north.

    I think that is correct. When we moved east of the appalachians and to a small town I/we had to rev up our use of “sir” and “ma’am” but and also we had to learn that there is the aspect of caste and class and one must understand who gets addressed what way and who does not. Also, one must understand what the use of “sir” and “ma/am” says about the class (I mean social class/status) of the speaker.

    I can listen to speakers use of “sir and ma’am” and listen to their use of pronouns and tell what sort of family they came from, provided the are “from around here.” In dealing those who are not from around here this does not apply. But then it is pretty obvious from pronunciation and pronouns who is more or less from this area of the south and who is not.

    The use of “dear” as illustrated by numo is lower class when used by women in lower class jobs, but it is not intended to be offensive. But when it is used by younger men to address older women it may or may not mean class structure; but this form of address is frequently used by flagrantly effeminate men for some reason or the other. It would be best for everybody to avoid that form of address, unless it is being used as some statement of political activism I suppose. At the same time, really old men get to say whatever they say and it gets written off as some form of cultural dementia or something. It may be annoying but is not necessarily significant of anything at all. For really old men it could be written of as “he’s just not himself any more” and that would be understood.

    Now, older african-american men may address older women as “mama” and that is not an offense. And older women get addressed as “Miss Susie” by just about everybody and that is not intended as an offense.

    So, yes, it is cultural and varies from place to place.

  59. @ Nancy:
    Would you like to star in a new film I am making called ‘Driving Miss Nancy’? 🙂

    Co-starring Nick Bullbeck as the cook, and yours truly as the driver (always driving everybody here round the bend …).

  60.   __

    The Fall And Demise Of Christ-ian-ity, ‘Vaudeville’ Style?

    (You will know them by their ‘fruit’?)

    hmmm…

    Alice Cooper’s ‘verbal’ devotion and dedication to Jesus is wonderful. Mega Church pastoral ‘verbal’ devotion and dedication to Jesus is wonderful. 

    (bump)

    However, I would be reticent or reluctant to attend either individual’s ‘performance’; as the generally missing ingredient or component in this religious ‘equation’ tends to be “holiness”, without which the bible says no one will see God…

    huh?

    Welcome 2 My 501(c)3 ‘Church’ Nightmare?!?

    What?

    Holiness is ‘out” for ever?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUugQoxS8_o

    (sadface)

    Sopy

  61. @ Nancy:
    The pharmacist in question is not exactly gay. Neither was the butly ambulance attendant who called me “honey,” which really hit a nerve.

    Now, if either of these people had been African American women, i wouldn’t have minded in the least.

    I do think there are major regional differences, but equally, the sir/ma’am thing is (or used to be) standard for retail workers regardless.

  62. @ numo:
    Should mention that sir/ma’am is not common usage in the Mid-Atlantic states, except in businesses and certain other social/business situations. Have never understood its ubiquitous use in the South.

  63. numo wrote:

    Have never understood its ubiquitous use in the South.

    I read an article that talked about that some. According to the article it is primarily the lower middle and working class whites who emphasize the use of sir and ma’am for their children. The wealthy (according to the article) do not, and those in generational poverty do not so much. The african americans have a plethora of expressions including words and sounds (like ummmhmmm) often accompanied by facial and eye and body motions and what seems to be tonal influences. Very expressive. Now, of course, everybody should be subject to doing whatever the employer wants on the job. I am just saying that the sir and ma’am thing is not exactly ubiquitous if you mean everybody does it to the same extent. I don’t think that is the case.

    I am wondering how much all this will change with the increasing size of the latino population. They have a lot of emphasis on who is from where and why that makes one group better than the other group, so I would think that their communication styles in english would develop to correspond to that.

    Personally I rarely use sir or ma’am. I talk in sentences instead. That minimizes my mistakes in the social cues I think. For example: a teacher asks a child a yes or no question and expects a no/yes sir/ma’am. But a teacher asking the same question to the child’s parent gets a sentence but neither sir nor ma’am because of the equality of the teacher and the parent in that situation. Sooooo, I neither say nor expect sir or ma’am whenever I can avoid it. I started practicing that skill in grade school–but that is a different story. I was a difficult student whom all the teachers disliked in one way or the other. We won’t go there either.

    Also, a crisp no/yes sir/ma’am can be used to convey the message that the other person is acting like a #$%& and it is not appreciated. Example: first speaker says blah blah blah and second speaker snaps back “yesss sirrrr!” First speaker may then reply “Oh, sorry, I did not mean to sound like that.” At the same time a way to convey an extra level of respect is to say sir or ma/am where it is not expected and do it as an obvious acknowledgment of appreciation or recognition. One of my kids did that once and I saw the result and it was a really good thing.

  64. @ Sopwith:

    Some things are not appropriate for professing believers. Of course the problem comes in deciding who gets to make that call as to what is okay and what is not. I am thinking that Alice Cooper’s stage act is not anything that fits into christianity very well, but neither do I want to see the most rigid rules of fundamentalism in place such that Snow White the disney move is off limits.

  65. @ Nancy:

    In all honesty, I’m much more offended by and inclined to dislike many of the performances I see from a pulpit which are done in the name of God than I am offended by what Alice Cooper might do in his performances. That I know of, Alice Cooper isn’t performing from a pulpit nor claiming anything on God’s behalf.

  66. @ Nancy:
    “May i help you, ma’am?” is not the same as “May i help you, dear?” especially when the person who says it is a man.

    I rest my case.

  67.   __

    In deference to stage performing artist Alice Cooper, no demands are made to purchase his products or attend his performances. 

    🙂

  68. numo wrote:

    “May i help you, ma’am?” is not the same as “May i help you, dear?” especially when the person who says it is a man.

    If a man other than my husband or father said that to me, I would respond something like, “Certainly, Dearie.”

  69. numo wrote:

    Have never understood its ubiquitous use in the South.

    It’s bred in with the use of the ruler and the paddle. I’ve not lived in east Texas for over 20 years but going to yes ma’am/sir is still my default.

  70. Gram3 wrote:

    If a man other than my husband or father said that to me, I would respond something like, “Certainly, Dearie.”

    That exact thing happened to me. Two men were looking at the same hardware at Sears I was and one of them asked “can I help you find something sweetie?” I looked at him and said, “no thanks, darlin’, I’m OK.” I figured he’d get the message, but his friend nudged him and asked, “How did she know your name?”

    We all got a bit of a laugh at that, but I still hope he got the message.

  71. mirele wrote:

    numo wrote:
    Have never understood its ubiquitous use in the South.
    It’s bred in with the use of the ruler and the paddle. I’ve not lived in east Texas for over 20 years but going to yes ma’am/sir is still my default.

    I was born here, raised here, went to college here, ( I did attend grad school and live in Ft Worth for a few years, and I’ll admit, I loved Ft Worth, our son was born there.) and I’ll die in East Texas. Yes sir/ma’am is a given with me, and my son who was raised here, but went to college in the DFW area also says yes sir/ ma’am….to me, and most people here, mom and dad, grandma and grandpa did a good job raising the person….

  72. Victorious wrote:

    hat exact thing happened to me. Two men were looking at the same hardware at Sears I was and one of them asked “can I help you find something sweetie?”

    To continue on this spur off the OP, I was in a HomeImprovementWarehouse last spring, and there was a young associate who was being very helpful to me when I was looking for a particular item in the garden center. He apologized for not knowing where this particular item was and said he was new and really wanted to learn about things in the store. He lamented that some things were difficult for him to learn, like screws. So, I asked him to follow me over to the hardware aisle where I gave him a short tutorial on the differences between various types and uses of screws with some lagniappe about nails.

    Then I warned him that some day a cranky old lady would unload on him because she was looking for cementitious backer board screws, but he would not find them on the hardware aisle nor near the backer board but near the drywall near the drywall, for some inexplicable reason, since the cementitious backer board was stocked back by the tile at the other side of the store. I opined that product placement decisions were no doubt made at Headquarters by Management Persons who don’t know that a 2×4 is not 2×4. And maybe he could salvage her bad project day by recommending that she buy a good driver drill, too, ’cause that stuff’s a bear. The young man was very appreciative for my help, and so was I for his. Respect and a helpful attitude are always good things. So is taking a little time with someone.

    Another time at the same Warehouse, some new young management associates were huddling at an end cap–I can spot them a mile away because they are constantly being run through the stores here. I had just picked up a specialty item that few non-tradesmen would know or care about, and one of the young associates asked me if she could help me. Maybe she thought I was lost in that part of the store, but she seemed to genuinely want to help. So I smiled warmly and held out said specialty item to her and said, “Thanks, I’ve already got what I need.” They looked at me and the item and I could tell they were relieved I had not asked her where to find it. They probably just fell of the Wharton bus the day before. 😉

    Next time you see a cranky old lady who is not staying in her designated zone of the HomeImprovementWarehouse, it might just be Dear ole Gram the Ma’am going outside her role. Again.

  73. K.D. wrote:

    I’ll die in East Texas. Yes sir/ma’am is a given with me, and my son who was raised here, but went to college in the DFW area also says yes sir/ ma’am

    You can take the kid out of East Texas, but you can’t take the East Texas raisin’s out of the kid. There used to be a question directed to kids who had forgotten their manners. “Kid, where’d you put your raisin’s?”

  74. Gram3 wrote:

    The young man was very appreciative for my help, and so was I for his. Respect and a helpful attitude are always good things. So is taking a little time with someone.

    So true, Gram, so true. Another time at another (small) hardware, however, I was unable to find the particular part I needed for my lawnmower. The owner asked me if he could help. I showed him the part that had broken and asked where I could find it. He then took me totally by surprise when he asked if my husband knew the part was broken. I simply said “no” feeling no need to explain my personal life with him. He looked me straight in the eye and said, “You GD women are all the same EVER SINCE YOU GOT THE VOTE!!!”

    I told him I was certain he couldn’t help me and walked out. Went to another (small) hardware owned by two women who helped me lickity split with no insults.
    P.S. the part cost $.67.

  75. Carole Ryan wrote:

    Law Prof wrote: Can totally relate. So glad the talent God gave me is being used in the classroom where it can do some good rather than in front of a congregation where I’d be a distraction from Jesus and would have the effect of putting the attention on the less-than-wonderful me. There is no room for celebrities in a healthy fellowship. I don’t even think there’s room for a stage or a single leader. There’s only room for people submitting one to another in a coequal manner.
    Yes, yes, yes. But has anyone found this in a church? A healthy church, that is.

    Haven’t yet. Tried it in a home fellowship, but we’ve discovered that wolves often attend those to seek narcissistic supply as well. I have to think about the only answer is either to spend a lot of time looking for a decent church that isn’t pastor-centric and cope with the specter of the stage or to find some good like-minded friends who’ve proved up that “friend” label over the course of years and form some sort of informal fellowship.

  76. Victorious wrote:

    He looked me straight in the eye and said, “You GD women are all the same EVER SINCE YOU GOT THE VOTE!!!”

    As the kids these days say, “I can’t even.” What a [censored]!

  77. Nancy wrote:

    @ Sopwith:

    Some things are not appropriate for professing believers. Of course the problem comes in deciding who gets to make that call as to what is okay and what is not. I am thinking that Alice Cooper’s stage act is not anything that fits into christianity very well, but neither do I want to see the most rigid rules of fundamentalism in place such that Snow White the disney move is off limits.

    Alice Cooper has said that he models his stage act after Vaudeville acts which he admired. He met many of the Vaudeville greats and became their fans.

  78. numo wrote:

    @ Josh:
    Josh, did you have a different word at the end of your 2nd sentence, or are you just joking around?

    I was simply expressing my disgust with the hardware store owner who was ridiculously rude to Victorious.

  79. Victorious wrote:

    “You GD women are all the same EVER SINCE YOU GOT THE VOTE!!!”

    To his credit he actually went on record with what others think but will not say or worse yet mask with sweet-sounding language. It must be/have been a burden to have such universal knowledge about all women and such little power to do anything to remedy the dreadful situation of women being able to vote and hold property and such. No doubt that unfortunate hiccup in the common sense of this republic will eventually cause everyone to become unsexed unmales and unfemales. What, you say that is a non-sequitur? I got that straight from CBMW so it must be true!

  80. Gram3 wrote:

    It must be/have been a burden to have such universal knowledge about all women and such little power to do anything to remedy the dreadful situation of women being able to vote and hold property and such.

    Yep! And fix their own lawnmowers! (after all, that is a man’s job) LOL!

  81. You nailed it with this line: “If these are truly great leaders, shouldn’t their particular church be more famous than the one guy who gives the sermon?” Every pastor/conference speaker/writer who finds themselves attaining celebrity status might do well to ask that question of themselves. It’s not that celebrity per se is always evil, but when it obscures Christ and his church it’s become a problem.

  82. @ numo:
    After re-reading your comment, I see I may have interpreted it in an unconventional way the first time around. There was no censorship from our blog hosts, but let’s just say that I did have a different word at the end of that sentence… in my mind. 😉

  83. Great post. As a former denominational pastor I have become convinced of the significance of the 58 “one anothers” in the New Testament. The clergy/laity distinction that still prevails within evangelicalism really denies this. Jon Zens (Searching Together and The Pastor Has No Clothes), Frank Viola and George Barna (Pagan Christianity and Reimagining Church) have a lot of helpful things to say on this topic.

  84. @ Gram3:
    Next time you see a cranky old lady who is not staying in her designated zone of the HomeImprovementWarehouse, it might just be Dear ole Gram the Ma’am going outside her role. Again.

    A woman after my own heart! I miss my home improvement days since I have severe carpal tunnel and I can’t even replace a lightbulb. My “roles” are being tossed all over the place and I have become the cranky nobody on the internet again.