Mark Driscoll’s Comeback: We’re Sorry, But Something Went Wrong

“The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone else he can blame it on.”-Robert Block link

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TWW is looking forward to 2015. We plan to look at Nouthetic Counseling, the ARC, beliefs about demons, dominionism, church contracts and discipline, a new movement amongst celibate LGBTQ called Spiritual Friendship, evangelical Catholicism along with personal stories of how child sex abuse is poorly handled in churches. This list is only the tip of the iceberg. In fact, if today's story is any indication, Mark Driscoll will continue to make waves in 2015. We also anticipate hearing more about the SGM lawsuit

The Last Sunday

This past weekend was the last worship service for the church formerly known as Mars Hill. Rick Warren preached the final sermon. According to Warren Throckmorton, Rick Warren emphasized the following:

Even in God’s garden of grace, broken trees bear fruit.

Dr Throckmorton commented:

For many, Mars Hill Church was not a broken tree. They made their nest in that tree and are mourning today as it will no longer function as it once did. For others the tree was diseased and broken, a source of pain. While some of them may celebrate, I suspect that most of those who had anything to do with the church will also feel some sadness and grief. In all my interviews, I have met only a handful who wanted to see the church close. Most wanted to see change and stories of redemption and correction.

Needless to say, they were still trolling for money during the service.

Mark Driscoll and the *Now You See It; Now you Don't* website: What is going on?!!

On 12/23/14, Seattle PI posted Mark Driscoll is back and wants your money. It described the website:

Along with offering sermons and free ebooks, the website also asks for donations. It claims the funds will be sent to “Learning For Living,” an “application-pending registered 501(c)3 nonprofit organization.

The next point is interesting.

The website, its layout bearing striking resemblance to that of his former church, is offering “free exclusive resources directly from Pastor Mark Driscoll” for those who sign up. The initial offering is a Christmas-themed e-book, “The Boy Who is Lord: Jesus’Birth in Luke’s Gospel.”

Of course, he wants your money.

The Driscoll site also asks for gifts, saying: ”Your tax-deductible donation allows us to continue hosting and distributing Pastor Mark’s Bible teachings and resources.”

On 12/27/14, The Huffington Post featured Mars Hill Church's Former Pastor Mark Driscoll Is Back With A Flashy New WebsiteAnd guess who is his *pro bono* spokesman? Mark DeMoss, who is also listed as a Driscoll friend. You remember him, don't you? link and link 

DeMoss told HuffPost:

…that the pastor recently set up Learning For Living to manage his Bible teaching content, since he can't provide content through Mars Hill anymore. 

It is a low-key operation with no paid staff. He simply wanted a way to make sermon and written content available, much of it for free, some of it for a contribution, and is doing so now at markdriscoll.org. Learning for Living is the non-profit organization name through which people can contribute and/or order materials. He just got it up and running in recent days.

According to Warren Throckmorton, Markdriscoll.org is a Copy of Marshill.com.

There is a reason why Markdricoll.org looks like Marshill.com: Driscoll’s new site is a copy of the church website. In addition to the obvious similar appearance, several readers alerted me that the source code for Markdriscoll.org contains many links to marshill.com

Justin Dean, who is no longer affiliated with Mars Hill as of 12/24/14, claims this website was handed over to Driscoll and denies that he has any knowledge of whether Driscoll paid Mars Hill anything for it. He also claimed, according to Throckmorton,

As for who approved or what was paid, I have no idea. That would be private information. I no longer represent Mars Hill as my last day was 12/24/14.

and

The domain is also registered to Learning for Living, not Mars Hill Fellowship. Mars Hill originally purchased that domain many years ago and has now turned it over to Pastor Mark.

From the website, Mark Driscoll tells us all about himself. As quoted by Christian Today:

 "With a skillful mix of bold presentation, accessible teaching, and unrelenting compassion for those who are hurting the most—particularly women who are victims of sexual and physical abuse and assault—Pastor Mark has taken biblical Christianity into cultural corners rarely explored by evangelicals."

As we have learned in 2014, Mark Driscoll is a little lax when quoting others in his books, etc. So, one would think he would have a loose terms of use. Nope!

All sermons, articles, blog posts, text, graphics, user interfaces, visual interfaces, photographs, trademarks, logos, sounds, music, artwork and computer code (collectively, “Content”), including but not limited to the design, structure, selection, coordination, expression, “look and feel” and arrangement of such Content, contained on the Site is owned, controlled or licensed by or to Mars Hill Church, and is protected by trade dress, copyright, patent and trademark laws, and various other intellectual property rights and unfair competition laws.

Except as expressly provided in these Terms of Use, no part of the Site and no Content may be copied, reproduced, republished, uploaded, posted, publicly displayed, encoded, translated, transmitted or distributed in any way (including “mirroring”) to any other computer, server, Web site, television, video projector or other medium for publication or distribution or for any religious use or commercial enterprise, without Mars Hill’s express prior written consent.

In light of these stringent *terms,* a post by Warren Throckmorton should cause you to spit out your coffee. On 12/23/14, Janet tweeted @wartwatch the following:

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Uh Oh!  The Mefferd machine does it again! The Deebs want to know if certain members of The Gospel Coalition will advise *authors* not to speak to Mefferd once again! Truth for Life is a ministry by Alistair Begg.

In The Title of Mark Driscoll’s New Non-Profit is Trademarked by Two Other OrganizationsWarren Throckmorton looked into Mefferd's assertion.

I became aware of that last week and wrote Truth for Life for comment. Today, I spoke to someone at the organization who declined to comment but was aware of the issue. 

There is also another organization which uses this name.

The phrase is also trademarked by the non-sectarian Learning for Living Institute.

 BOOM! Driscoll's site goes down on 12/27/14 after these revelations.

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"We're sorry, but something went wrong" has to be the understatement of the year! It sums up the entire saga of Mark Driscoll!

And BOOM! Up again on 12/29/14 @3PM EST. 

A prediction: When the Deebs started blogging about Driscoll in 2009, we received some pretty over the top comments by ardent defenders of Driscoll. We were even chastised by a seminary professor who said something was wrong with us since Driscoll was beloved by most Calvinist leaders. Of course, as our concerns proved to be on the money, the critics slunk away.

When Driscoll's new website went up last week, we noted some folks starting to do the same thing all over again, both on this blog and over at Warren Throckmorton's blog. We believe that far too many young dudes hitched their star to Driscoll and their success is tied to his success. We are concerned that his DNA is continuing to be replicated in the Acts 29 network. Just this past week, I saw one such pastor say that Driscoll's Real Marriage was one of the books of the decade! 

We expect the rhetoric to increase as Driscoll makes his comeback and we intend to call these people on it. We were a bit reticent in 2009 but we have learned much in the past 5 years.

On Wednesday, we will list our top 10 posts of the year. Please feel free to list your favorite posts, either from this blog or other blogs. 

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 48:1-49:33 Matthew 15:29-16:12 Psalm 20:1-9 Proverbs 4:20-27

Comments

Mark Driscoll’s Comeback: We’re Sorry, But Something Went Wrong — 133 Comments

  1. Compassion for women who are victims of abuse, he claims??? He’s the LAST person I’d credit with that! In fact, it feels like a slap in the face that he would even dare to say that!!!

  2. Kathy wrote:

    Compassion for women who are victims of abuse, he claims??? He’s the LAST person I’d credit with that! In fact, it feels like a slap in the face that he would even dare to say that!!!

    I know, the irony is a little much.

  3. The phrase is also trademarked by the non-sectarian “Learning for Living Institute.”

    I don’t think this one constitutes a trademark violation. Phrases get trademarked only for certain uses, in this case, a school or institute. But the Alistar Begg’s registered trade name for a ministry? Yeah, I suspect that’s a problem for Mark Driscoll.

    Any attorneys want to comment on that?

  4. I think semi-dyslexia kicked in, which happens progressively more so when I’m getting tired. Perhaps one of those end-of-a-long-year things.

    Anyway, when I read that sentence near the end of the post, “Just this past week, I saw one such pastor say that Driscoll’s Real Marriage was one of the books of the decade!” my brain processed the last word as *decayed*.

    Sometimes when we’re extra tired, truth tends to escape more readily. Or readingly.

  5. He’s baaaaack!

    Pretty much predicted by everyone here. Way too many people willing to check their brains at the door to think that Driscoll, like other fallen celebrity preachers, will fade into the obscurity they so richly deserve.

  6. As one whom has had 24 Intellectual Property (Trademarks) lawsuits as plaintiff (and undefeated to date 24-0 all settled before trial, most within the first 60 days), I do not necessary see Driscoll encountering difficulties…Janet made a slight mistake….Truth For Life owns the trademark to “Where The Learning Is For Living” trademark under classification 09 & 016 whereas another company has the trademark “Learning for Living” under classification 041/education. You can go to http://www.uspto.gov…and under trademarks on the government site, do a in depth search. Either way, Driscoll could find an argument by the other 2 parties that he is in fact infringing and then either defend himself or drop the use….but there are many classifications on trademarks and I own 2 trademarks that are also owned by multiple other sources in other areas of commerce…this is not unusual. Especially if a tradename crosses many boundaries of products & services. Either way…Driscoll is known for poor due diligence and acts rather presumptuous in most areas of managing his affairs. As pointed out time and time again…this guy needs to take a step back…and to date..there is absolutely no credence that he was ever called to minister/pastor as evidenced by his behavior and treatment of others. But alas….no doubt he is coming back…sad sad and sad.

  7. yikes…so many lawsuits, my eyes are wasted…Truth For Life does in fact own the “Where The Learning Is For Living” AND “Learning for Living” but again…their claims are classification 09 & 16 which is Digital Media & Books, etc. Classification 41 is Education. Again…broad strokes and trademark law is one with many aspects that can only be defined in a Court of Law. But…there is also very little damages involved. You can request a Court to grant an injunction, but for monetary damages, you must prove you were damaged, and thus only entitled to your profits. If no profits, no damages. Only the potential injunction and attorney fees. Sorry for the misstatement above.

  8. Driscoll must have a hole in his head! I almost spit out my coffee when I started reading the intro to his website. The second sentence into the intro states he has been named one of the 25 most influential pastors of the past 25 years. The next sentence states: “He is grateful to be a nobody—–“. I don’t think he can brag about being on a top 25 list, then modestly claim to be a nobody. Although it is written in the third person, it is obvious that Driscoll composed it himself. How can anyone believe this nonsense???

  9. Ann wrote:

    Driscoll must have a hole in his head! I

    Naah. Just so full of himself there’s no room left for brains.

  10. Ann wrote:

    I don’t think he can brag about being on a top 25 list, then modestly claim to be a nobody.

    Unless he’s been taking lessons from The Humble One(TM) himself (chuckle chuckle).

  11. Eric wrote:

    Does that make me a bad Christian?

    It makes you an honest Christian. And if we laugh, can you imagine what those who are outside of our hallowed halls do?

  12. Eric wrote:

    I’m now laughing at Mark Driscoll. Does that make me a bad Christian?

    I sure hope not. Making fun of pastors is a hobby of mine. I try to keep it at a reasonable level and not go overboard, but I struggle.

  13. Ann wrote:

    it is obvious that Driscoll composed it himself. How can anyone believe this nonsense???

    He obviously does!

  14. Yeah, Jim Bakker tried to make a comeback, too. His big comeback is reduced to hawking dried survival food at 3:00am on TBN for the coming Armageddon. http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/food.html
    And Jimmy Swaggart’s comeback involves an obscure show on SBN. http://www.jsm.org/ I don’t have the time to list all the discraced, celebrity ministers who have tried to press on like nothing happened. Guys like this will always have a few die hard, groupie-disciples, but usually people with even a modicum of discernment will move on.

    Being mid 40’s, Driscoll is too old to appeal to young, hipster types anymore. I’m curious as to what will be the make up of the population that will hang on to his doctrinal drivel.

  15. M. Joy wrote:

    Being mid 40’s, Driscoll is too old to appeal to young, hipster types anymore.

    I’m young and kind of hipster-ish. And he never appealed to me.

  16. dee wrote:

    Eric wrote:
    Does that make me a bad Christian?
    It makes you an honest Christian. And if we laugh, can you imagine what those who are outside of our hallowed halls do?

    Those outside the halls are rolling on the floor….as mentioned above, they see him as J. Frank Norris, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, etc…he’s not advancing the message of Christ, he like so many of these ministers do it for their own ego….( and $$$)

  17. @ Corbin:
    @ dee:

    Maybe that is our gift to those who are too important to laugh at themselves? 🙂

    Disclaimer: I used to be that way myself, but got laughed at by thousands of college students in a formal setting, and so began my descent into humility and reality.

  18. K.D. wrote:

    he like so many of these ministers do it for their own ego….( and $$$)

    Yes, hit the nail on the head.

  19. I am looking forward to what you have planned for 2015! Especially the Nouthetic Counseling. I sat under Walter Fremont’s teaching at BJU and some of it was appalling to me even as an oblivious young man. Nouthetic Counseling Needs to stop. I have seen too many lives screwed up by it.

  20. @ Eagle:

    Brilliant. My personal favorite:

    “I’m also a “church-serving, people-loving, Bible preaching pastor!” That should do the trick. People want to know they are loved. Never mind that in my vision of the church, I will never know your name, you know mine and that is all that is important.”

  21. Justin Dean said,

    Mars Hill originally purchased that domain many years ago and has now turned it over to Pastor Mark.

    Pastor Mark? What or who is he “pastor” of? He sold out his flock to the slaughterhouse, and then abandoned them. There are some pathetic fan sites on Facebook and elsewhere just dripping with platitudes about how wonderful he is, just hoping, praying, yearning for a touch of his garment or even just one word from him. Has he acknowledged even one pitiful plea? Not a word. Silence. He doesn’t give a damn about any wounded sheep.

  22. @ Kathy:
    Many x Mars hill women have shared how abused they were by Mark Driscoll’s teachings. They were made to feel inadequate. This is a joke that Mark Driscoll can ministry to abused women.

  23. Eric wrote:

    Nouthetic Counseling Needs to stop. I have seen too many lives screwed up by it.

    Agreed. I’m looking forward to it also. Dig into the lives of some of the men at the top, including the nouthetic authors and bloggers. Some of them are abusive to their wives. It’s kept hush-hush but if you open up the topic, I’m sure someone will tell all.

  24. dee wrote:

    Ann wrote:

    it is obvious that Driscoll composed it himself. How can anyone believe this nonsense???

    He obviously does!

    That whole paragraph about his amazingness, oh no sorry, nothingness, has haunted me since I read it. He needs to go away, do something quiet & let his good deeds (if he can muster some up that require no publicity) speak for him. I find his whole website infinitely depressing.

  25. Mark Driscoll was a leader of a cult like church, and he is not a very nice person, and now he is back, selling or panhandling his wares. He probably will be successful, and WWW and Janet Mefford and Mr. Throckmorton will be watching him. Rick Warren performed the final service at Driscoll’s old haunt. Is Rick Warren going to pacify critics, when the spiritual abuse that occurred under Driscoll’s reign may not change? Rick Warren may be less offensive than Driscoll but he pioneered some of the same methods, in my opinion, that can lead to abuse, such as the signing of church contracts called covenants. And once that covenant is signed a church is less likely to get sued if it is abusive because it is all in the contract. Stop calling it covenants and call it a legal document, please.

  26. I think it would be nice if Rick Warrens worshipful icon, ie. comic strip, at SWBTS stated that Warren is “new father of the church contract.”

  27. Margaret wrote:

    This is a joke that Mark Driscoll can ministry to abused women.

    Driscoll claims his wife was abused and it makes him sad but not sad enough since he aired her dirty laundry and made himself look like the wronged party!

  28. TedS. wrote:

    There are some pathetic fan sites on Facebook and elsewhere just dripping with platitudes about how wonderful he is,

    I was shocked by the crude comments that we received back in 2009 by his supporters. In my opinion, Driscoll cheapened the faith by his language and jokes. His fanboys continue in his image.

  29. Janey wrote:

    Dig into the lives of some of the men at the top, including the nouthetic authors and bloggers. Some of them are abusive to their wives. It’s kept hush-hush but if you open up the topic, I’m sure someone will tell all.

    Can you point me to where this information comes from?

  30. dee wrote:

    In fact, there are a few churches that are irritated with us because their church members refused to sign them.

    I consider you to have done the Lord’s work then. Maybe I missed something, but I don’t recall anything in the New Testament regarding membership contracts.

  31. In addition to the obvious similar appearance, several readers alerted me that the source code for Markdriscoll.org contains many links to marshill.com
    But source code is not protected by copyright. The final graphic design might be, but not the code.

  32. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    But source code is not protected by copyright. The final graphic design might be, but not the code.

    I think Warren brought this up because it seems as if Mars Hill is turning over a lot of stuff to Driscoll.

  33. JeffT wrote:

    Maybe I missed something, but I don’t recall anything in the New Testament regarding membership contracts.

    It doesn’t. i don’t plan to ever sing one again. If you read through our myriad of posts on this, you will find that the chief reason these started showing up in the 90s was to protect the churches from lawsuits. They present this as a “group hug.” Its not. Its a legal document-plain and simple.

  34. dee wrote:

    i don’t plan to ever sing one again.

    Wow Dee – I’ve never been in a church where you had to sing it too. You had to carry a tune to be a member?

    😀 :p

  35.   __

    “Nothing Happened?!? ”

    hmmm…

    Mark Driscoll is NOW in ‘sin’-dacated ‘church’ re-runs?

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy

  36. dee wrote:

    I was shocked by the crude comments that we received back in 2009 by his supporters. In my opinion, Driscoll cheapened the faith by his language and jokes. His fanboys continue in his image.

    You are so right. The “real man” mentality that MD created is pathetic. It saddens me that so many guys seem to have bought into the line. Where is meekness? Where is humility? MD’s brand of manhood is nothing more than narcissistic overcompensation to what his soul seems to lack in wisdom and love. The sooner he is identified as a sociopath, the better off we will be.

  37. For those interested, I just posted on my blog a series of pages that captures my 2014 research work about failures of pastoral, organizational, and non-profit systems at Mars Hill Church.

    This used to be a series of posts, but it was difficult to find some topics because the posts went live over a five-month period. So, I reduced duplication, reorganized the material, and hopefully made it far easier to navigate.

    To access the material, click on the main page for Mars Hill Church Case Study. There you will find a complete Table of Contents, with links to the subpages.

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/mars-hill-case-study/

  38. Pingback: Linkathon | PhoenixPreacher

  39. Eric wrote:

    The “real man” mentality that MD created is pathetic.

    What I have never understood is how some male pew sitter becomes a “real man” by letting some other man (MD) tell him what to do. It is like MD and his ilk are saying “I am a real man because I am your leader, and you are a real man if you are my follower.” How does that make any sense? Real men don’t turn their brains over to some other man. Slapping forehead!

  40. Eric wrote:

    I’m now laughing at Mark Driscoll. Does that make me a bad Christian?

    What’s the zip code for the verse “The LORD Himself shall hold them in derision”?

  41. TedS. wrote:

    There are some pathetic fan sites on Facebook and elsewhere just dripping with platitudes about how wonderful he is, just hoping, praying, yearning for a touch of his garment or even just one word from him.

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, describing a Nuremberg Rally in Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin

  42. TedS. wrote:

    There are some pathetic fan sites on Facebook and elsewhere just dripping with platitudes about how wonderful he is, just hoping, praying, yearning for a touch of his garment or even just one word from him.

    “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
    THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, describing a Nuremberg Rally in Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin

  43. M. Joy wrote:

    Guys like this will always have a few die hard, groupie-disciples, but usually people with even a modicum of discernment will move on.

    Jokers will always have their Harley Quinns going “OOOOOOD!!! MY SOULMATE!!!!!”

  44. Driscoll has objectified women from the start of his ministry. When you strip away all the “Christianese” I do not see any difference between his thinking about women and advertising/porn industry that objectifies women. The foundational thinking is the same. And we could list all day the ways he communicated his view from Peasant Princess series, Esther, Real Marriage to his Porno-divinations.

    Never forget how he described women when he was posing as William Wallace. That sums it up.

  45. ‘Mark Driscoll’s Comeback’

    The blood runs cold. I wasn’t expecting to see those words for a couple of years, if ever. It is way, way too soon – if this man had any sense at all he’d be laying low for a while. He seems not to be a serious human being – more like a caricature or a cartoon. I guess that’s what happens when you turn yourself into a brand, and then identify that way.

    A while back I posted this question, and it seems apposite to repeat it now: Does this man not have any friends, sensible friends, real heart friends, to counsel him and point out to him just how disconnected he has become? Or are all of his ‘friends’ just fellow grifters?

    Does he really believe that a few weeks is enough for everyone to forget what a mess he has made? What a mess he is. Seems to me it would require lots and lots of time out of the limelight before anyone can believe he has done anything like the reflection and repentance he needs to do before anyone could trust him again.

    But this gets back to another theme of mine: people enable him (and other abusive ‘pastors’). At some point, it’s up to the congregation. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice… whatever.

  46. @ Lydia:
    Yes, he still thinks the same as he did when posting as WW II. In the intervening years, he’s learned to tone down his language a bit when in public, but the message hasn’t changed one iota.

    I have this sneaking suspicion that he is actually a mouthpiece for the so-called “manosphere,” and that he has been involved with MRA advocacy through Mars Hill from day 1. How/why nobody seems to be making the connection is beyond me, but I’ve yet to see any xtian site or journalist do so. I bet it could be demonstrated, though, without much difficulty at all.

  47. @ numo:
    Come to think of it, neither The Stranger or the Seattle PI have said anything about the weird MRA stuff in MD’s pronouncements over the years. I find that bafgling.

  48. @ roebuck:

    Been awhile (what with getting married and all)

    But, no, he doesn’t. People like MD don’t have friends, they have toadies or people they throw under the bus.

    Friendship is a two-way street and narcissists can’t manage that.

  49. Caitlin wrote:

    People like MD don’t have friends, they have toadies or people they throw under the bus.

    Congrats on your marriage (and all) Caitlin! I have to say, ‘toadies’ is the perfect word. I must confess, there is some part of me that feels a bit of pity for ‘famous’ people who have only toadies in lieu of friends.

    Toadies – that’s my word of the day!

  50. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Just so full of himself there’s no room left for brains.

    Or humility. Or compassion. Or even common sense.

    Amen to those spot on posts, Serving and H.U.G.!

  51. M. Joy wrote:

    Yeah, Jim Bakker tried to make a comeback, too. His big comeback is reduced to hawking dried survival food at 3:00am on TBN for the coming Armageddon. http://jimbakkershow.com/lovegifts/food.html
    And Jimmy Swaggart’s comeback involves an obscure show on SBN. http://www.jsm.org/ I don’t have the time to list all the discraced, celebrity ministers who have tried to press on like nothing happened.

    I have to disagree with your observations regarding Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart.

    Jim Bakker is 75 year old and has his own TV show which is shown throughout the United States and around the world. Upon release from prison, he got married and his wife is a minister, too. He broadcasts from his Morningside Retreat Center – 700 acres in Branson Missouri.

    Jimmy Swaggart is 80 years old and Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is going strong. Both his son Donnie Swaggart and his grandson Gabriel Swaggart are active in the ministry.

    These men have pressed on and remain in successful ministries.

  52. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    TedS. wrote:

    There are some pathetic fan sites on Facebook and elsewhere just dripping with platitudes about how wonderful he is, just hoping, praying, yearning for a touch of his garment or even just one word from him.

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, describing a Nuremberg Rally in Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin

    You know, H.U.G., that’s basically what I said to another pastor who apologized to me “on behalf of all Christians” for my recently excommunication and shunning at my Silicon Valley church (California) because I would not protect the pastors/elders’ friend (a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List) at the expense of children. I said to the apologetic pastor from another denomination, “You know, I understand how Hitler rose to power. He punished dissenters and counted on all of the people who had no back bone to do the right thing.”

  53. roebuck wrote:

    I have to say, ‘toadies’ is the perfect word. I must confess, there is some part of me that feels a bit of pity for ‘famous’ people who have only toadies in lieu of friends.
    Toadies – that’s my word of the day!

    Mars Hill under Driscoll reminds me of how Ralphie described his world in A Christmas Story – “In our world you were either a bully, a toadie , or one of the nameless rabble of victims”

  54. JeffT wrote:
    Mars Hill under Driscoll reminds me of how Ralphie described his world in A Christmas Story – “In our world you were either a bully, a toadie , or one of the nameless rabble of victims”

    That is *exactly* why I used that word. The 24-hour “A Christmas Story” marathon.

  55. These are all the stories that I hope to see TWW report and write about.

    1. The health of former SGM churches, SGM Fairfax, financial situation of CLC, etc…

    2. The financial condition on SGM, their report is overdue and I believe that needs to be investigated.

    3. The Acts 29 network needs to be investigated, reported, and examined. Countryside Church in Michigan City, IN is not the only implosion. There are more, and the Acts 29 network has problems.

    4. More analysis of Matt Chandler and the Village. I don’t think there has been enough focus on Matt Chandler.

    5. Capital Hill Baptist discipline procedures, that is something that should be investigated.

    6. Rumor has it that 9 Marks is trying to push their material in China. The US seems to export more cults. But I wonder what 9 Marks is going to do to the house church network there.

    7. The situation with Hyper-Calvinism in Trinity Evangelical Divinity school needs to be explored and reported. The Deebs have written about SEBTS, SBTS, etc… Now its time to write about Trinity.

    8. The Evangelical Free Church of America needs to be examined and looked at. Hyper-Calvinism is tearing apart the EFCA and there are churches being hijacked. TWW needs to write more about this and push this issue just as hard as SGM. The EFCA is a large denomination and many Para church ministries push people into the EFCA.

    9. Nouthetic Counseling is a must.

    10. Maybe a guest post by Warren Throckmorton on the ex-gay movement and how he would approach the issue of homosexuality?

    11. Guest post by Valerie Tarico on her thoughts about Mars Hill Seattle, SGM or modern day evangelism. How about some guest posts from atheists and agnostics on the outside? That could be helpful especially since too many Christians have their head in the sand and stuck in their bubbles.

    12. More about Calvary Chapel and the Moses Model. Maybe the Deebs can reach out to the Phoenix Preacher and have him write a guest post doing analysis on Calvary Chapel.

    13. Mark Driscoll…I think your work is just beginning.

    14. The Sojourn Network out of Louisville needs analysis.

    15. How about some posts on what is theologically wrong with the emergent church and the problems that exist with it. I think its important you do this as to throw off your critics.

    16. More posts by Todd Whilhelm doing analysis of Mark Dever and 9 Marks.

    17. This could be a post, I was reading 9 Marks the other day and read this posting. http://9marks.org/journal/vanishing-church/editors-note/

    Pay attention to this sentence by Jonathan Leeman, I am still chewing on this:

    “The growing opposition to the Christian faith in Western culture is heart breaking and worth challenging. That said, God has good purposes for letting the nations—even a so-called Christian nation—oppose his people. And one of them is to sharpen the church’s distinctness. He is seeking a bride for his Son, and he means for her to radiate.”

    18. How about some analysis of Tim Keller. Tim Keller is the Golden Calf for many of these people.

    19. More writing and analysis of John Piper… (whew….)

    Need I continue..? 😉

  56. Eagle wrote:

    6. Rumor has it that 9 Marks is trying to push their material in China. The US seems to export more cults. But I wonder what 9 Marks is going to do to the house church network there.

    If they can’t take them over, they can always turn them in to the Chinese Government.
    No house churches, no problem.

  57. Michaela wrote:

    You know, I understand how Hitler rose to power. He punished dissenters and counted on all of the people who had no back bone to do the right thing.”

    “Make an Example of one and you silence a hundred.”

    As well as throwing some Revival Meetings worthy of a Mega himself. (That’s how foreign observers described the Nuremberg Rallies — “Revival Meetings”.)

  58. Joe2 wrote:

    Jim Bakker is 75 year old and has his own TV show which is shown throughout the United States and around the world. Upon release from prison, he got married and his wife is a minister, too. He broadcasts from his Morningside Retreat Center – 700 acres in Branson Missouri.

    “Branson, Missouri — it’s what Las Vegas would be if Ned Flanders was running it.”
    — The Simpsons

    Jimmy Swaggart is 80 years old and Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is going strong. Both his son Donnie Swaggart and his grandson Gabriel Swaggart are active in the ministry.

    Passing the Ministry down from God the Father to God the Son to God the Grandson.
    Just like the Kims of North Korea.

  59. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Joe2 wrote:

    Jim Bakker is 75 year old and has his own TV show which is shown throughout the United States and around the world. Upon release from prison, he got married and his wife is a minister, too. He broadcasts from his Morningside Retreat Center – 700 acres in Branson Missouri.

    “Branson, Missouri — it’s what Las Vegas would be if Ned Flanders was running it.”
    — The Simpsons

    Jimmy Swaggart is 80 years old and Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is going strong. Both his son Donnie Swaggart and his grandson Gabriel Swaggart are active in the ministry.

    Passing the Ministry down from God the Father to God the Son to God the Grandson.
    Just like the Kims of North Korea.

    You nailed, it, H.U.G.!

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    You know, I understand how Hitler rose to power. He punished dissenters and counted on all of the people who had no back bone to do the right thing.”

    True enough. Although after my recent experience of being excommunicated and shunned at my Northern California church of 150+ members, for opposing a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List that the pastors/elders, defended — I contacted all of the people that I knew of (men and women) who had been abused by the pastors/elders. I apologized to them for what was done, including a godly doctor who has been married to his wife for 40+ years, and who was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned by the pastors/elders. All of the people I contacted said I am the ONLY person from that church who has contacted them, said I’m sorry, and asked for forgiveness because I knew what was done to them was wrong (I just had no idea how to handle this kind of leadership). So I started those folks on the road to deeper healing.

    “Make an Example of one and you silence a hundred.”

    As well as throwing some Revival Meetings worthy of a Mega himself. (That’s how foreign observers described the Nuremberg Rallies — “Revival Meetings”.)

  61. Eagle wrote:

    10. Maybe a guest post by Warren Throckmorton on the ex-gay movement and how he would approach the issue of homosexuality?

    The vast majority of LGBT people who have been exposed to conservative Christianity are well aware that ex-gay therapy doesn’t work. We’re just waiting for those confused straight evangelicals to catch up. It may take a few years, but they’ll figure it out eventually and then come running to us with the news, as though they’ve had a brilliant epiphany. 😉

  62. @ Josh:

    ROFL! I appreciate Warren Throckmorton as he has been a cut above so many others. When the Box Turtle Bulletin writes the following about him, you know that he’s doing the right thing.

    “Dr. Throckmorton is an advocate for honesty and decency within the evangelical community. When Box Turtle Bulletin began exposing Uganda’s proposed Kill the Gays bill, he was one of the strongest voices raising awareness within the Christian community about that issue. He is currently spearheading an effort to denounce the inherently dishonest assertions of revisionist historian (and anti-gay activist) David Barton. He doesn’t agree with everything we believe here, but he’s a good man who has risked his reputation and welcome among his peers to stand up for us.

    If you are a praying person, please remember to include prayers for Warren’s speedy and full recovery. If not, please send him your hopeful thoughts, good vibes, or general best wishes.”

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/tag/warren-throckmorton

  63. Eagle wrote:

    @ Josh:

    ROFL! I appreciate Warren Throckmorton as he has been a cut above so many others. When the Box Turtle Bulletin writes the following about him, you know that he’s doing the right thing.

    Perhaps Warren Throckmorton has improved health as the link says that his health problem (heart attack) was posted in September 2012.

    “Dr. Throckmorton is an advocate for honesty and decency within the evangelical community. When Box Turtle Bulletin began exposing Uganda’s proposed Kill the Gays bill, he was one of the strongest voices raising awareness within the Christian community about that issue. He is currently spearheading an effort to denounce the inherently dishonest assertions of revisionist historian (and anti-gay activist) David Barton. He doesn’t agree with everything we believe here, but he’s a good man who has risked his reputation and welcome among his peers to stand up for us.

    If you are a praying person, please remember to include prayers for Warren’s speedy and full recovery. If not, please send him your hopeful thoughts, good vibes, or general best wishes.”

    http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/tag/warren-throckmorton

  64. Update on Warren Throckmorton’s purported illness.

    Warren is not currently ill. That quote was from a 2012 post. Warren just wrote me and said that “reports of my illness are greatly exaggerated!”

  65. Joe2 wrote:

    I have to disagree with your observations regarding Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart.
    Jim Bakker is 75 year old and has his own TV show which is shown throughout the United States and around the world. Upon release from prison, he got married and his wife is a minister, too. He broadcasts from his Morningside Retreat Center – 700 acres in Branson Missouri.

    Yep, he’s selling Armageddonware (TM) to the credulous, with his trophy second wife by his side.

    Jimmy Swaggart is 80 years old and Jimmy Swaggart Ministries is going strong. Both his son Donnie Swaggart and his grandson Gabriel Swaggart are active in the ministry.
    These men have pressed on and remain in successful ministries.

    Swaggart’s SonLife TV has a very minimal distribution. And Donnie Swaggart’s been through two wives (don’t know if he’s officially divorced from wife #2).

    Let me be clear: Divorce is sometimes very, very necessary. And I am not getting down on people who get divorced. However, if you’re a minister and putting yourself out there as a model, you probably shouldn’t be doing so if you’re divorced. You’re not setting a good example. As always, Just My Personal Opinion.

  66. Josh wrote:

    The vast majority of LGBT people who have been exposed to conservative Christianity are well aware that ex-gay therapy doesn’t work. We’re just waiting for those confused straight evangelicals to catch up. It may take a few years, but they’ll figure it out eventually and then come running to us with the news, as though they’ve had a brilliant epiphany.

    This is one reason I like Warren Throckmorton. He’s blunt about so-called “reparative therapy.” It doesn’t work.

  67. Dee, regarding Mark DeMoss:
    Can you find out why DeMoss is working pro bono for Mark Driscoll when Driscoll made MILLIONS of dollars during his last few years at Mars Hill? Is that money gone, or is this a favor for MD’s new mentor Robert Morris who throws plenty of business DeMoss’ way?

    Back in October DeMoss made the following statement regarding Mars Hill: “the accusations will be thoroughly examined and a report issued when the review is complete.”http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/10/03/mars-hill-church-investigation-some-charges-being-investigated-some-not/. Can you ask DeMoss WHEN this vital report concerning his client will be released? This goes directly to DeMoss’ integrity and credibility. He made a promise that many people relied on. His promise has not been fulfilled. Was it just a trick to get journalists to shut up? Is that wise in the PR world? As a major player in the Evangelical world he could facilitate the release of the findings of the investigation. Either way I would like to hear his response.

    MH spokesman Justin Dean just moved his newly formed company Doxa Media from Seattle to Atlanta where DeMoss is headquartered. Not many Seattle-ites relocate to the Deep South. Is there a connection now between these two men/organizations? Will they be working together?

    Thanks for persevering with this story.

  68. LT wrote:

    MH spokesman Justin Dean just moved his newly formed company Doxa Media from Seattle to Atlanta where DeMoss is headquartered. Not many Seattle-ites relocate to the Deep South. Is there a connection now between these two men/organizations? Will they be working together?

    I did not know this. I am actually surprised that DeMoss is working with Driscoll. His family is affiliated with Liberty University. Now, according to this blog

    http://www.driscollcontroversy.com

    “The Driscoll controversy rages on. Now Liberty University, the largest Christian University in the world, has invited Mark Driscoll to hold a conference on his book Real Marriage. But many people are very unhappy with this amazing turn of events, as we explain in our article Driscoll at Liberty?”

  69.   __

    “Discerning The Handwriting?”

    You have been weighed on the scales and found deficient; and your ‘kingdom’ has been divided and ‘given over’ to others?

    hmmm…

    ‘Discerning’ and astute christian believers have ‘weighed up’ Reverend Mark Driscoll against the whole of Scripture, and found ‘him’ in the balance sorely wanting?

    (bump)

    ‘Others’ just might take a little longer…

    (sadface)

    Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy,

    Let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness,

    Let the one who is holy, still keep themselves holy,

    Jesus is comin’ all da same…

    ATB 🙂

    Sopy

  70. Josh wrote:

    The vast majority of LGBT people who have been exposed to conservative Christianity are well aware that ex-gay therapy doesn’t work. We’re just waiting for those confused straight evangelicals to catch up. It may take a few years, but they’ll figure it out eventually and then come running to us with the news, as though they’ve had a brilliant epiphany.

    @Josh,
    And I for one would like to say that the ONLY non-family member to contact me and to wish me a “Merry Christmas” (after I was excommunicated and shunned by my conservative Bible-believing church for taking the side of law enforcement instead of the side of the four pastors/elders in their enabling of their friend a convicted sex offender on Megan’s List at church) was…MY gay hair dresser!
    All of the Bible thumpers at my former church couldn’t be civil to me but a gay man who never goes to church was A SWEETHEART! Bless him! (And I for one got tired of my former church members rants against gays. Just sick of it. Take the log out of your own eye and stop looking at the speck in somebody else’s eye.)

  71. Eric wrote:
    ….The “real man” mentality that MD created is pathetic. It saddens me that so many guys seem to have bought into the line. Where is meekness? Where is humility? MD’s brand of manhood is nothing more than narcissistic overcompensation to what his soul seems to lack in wisdom and love….

    I’d like to know what Driscoll’s relationship with his father is/was. The men I know who espouse this overbearing treatment of their wives (and women in general and all of this ‘obey’ and ‘submit’ stuff) usually had: a) no relationships with their fathers; or b) bad relationships (with troubled, abusive) fathers.
    And I’d like to know

  72. Thanks for responding Dee. I hope you keep asking these questions. People like DeMoss and Driscoll rely on America’s short attention span and lack of long term memory in order to prosper. It’s a tangled web that may be worthy of the Deebs attention.

    DeMoss’ ties to Robert Morris/Gateway are quite strong. Gateway’s full time Crisis Management guru, Lawrence Swicegood, was a former DeMoss big muck and he and GW lawyer David Middlebrook still send plenty of business DeMoss’ way especially through their bi-annual pastor conferences where they strongly encourage pastors to turn to lawyers and PR teams first when the flock are hurt, especially when children are involved – just like Jesus would do “yeah, Peter, dude, get DeMoss and Middlebrook on the phone, one of the students was molested…..talk to the parents? Are you kidding me? Camel-mail them the deets ASAP – and no one say anything in the mean time.” Driscoll used WA lawyers and PR guys prior to when his late 2013 relationship with Robert Morris began. I wouldn’t be surprised if DeMoss is carrying the water on this due to GW’s influence.

    It appears that Liberty did allow Driscoll to speak in 2012. They also have let his new buddy Steven Furtick speak multiple times. Perhaps the younger DeMosses aren’t as put off by scandals and bad doctrine as their father or the trustees of LU. Apparently neither is Liberty University.

    This whole mess is starting to look as inbred as a Kentucky moonshine family. Perhaps Driscoll will get a reality tv series after all. TLC has their Honey Boo Boo slot open. Perhaps Corbin or HUG could suggest a title for the series….

    Happy New Year to the deebs

  73. Josh wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    10. Maybe a guest post by Warren Throckmorton on the ex-gay movement and how he would approach the issue of homosexuality?
    The vast majority of LGBT people who have been exposed to conservative Christianity are well aware that ex-gay therapy doesn’t work. We’re just waiting for those confused straight evangelicals to catch up. It may take a few years, but they’ll figure it out eventually and then come running to us with the news, as though they’ve had a brilliant epiphany.

    You know how to forgive. I got to smile at your illustration.

    So many gay people have been shunned by their families and have left Christianity all together, or worse, have committed suicide because they feel God doesn’t love them, or nobody loves them.

  74. @ Mark:

    Speaking of suicide I had a cousin who committed suicide in Montana before Christmas. I’m stunned over the situation.

  75. Eagle wrote:

    @ Mark:
    Speaking of suicide I had a cousin who committed suicide in Montana before Christmas. I’m stunned over the situation.

    So sorry for your loss. I have a good friend whose only child was killed because of the senseless actions of an inebriated driver this past summer, and the loss feels most acute during the holidays. This is so sad. The agony and ecstasy of living hit us all at some point and all I can do is show hurting people a little kindness when so much doesn’t make sense. We are all in this life together, in relationships with each other. We can ask God “why?” And there isn’t always an easy answer. And sometimes when we can’t explain it, something that passes all understanding comforts us. I have experienced this in the midst to of great personal tragedy. I can’t explain it, but It had to be God.

  76. @ Eagle:
    Eagle, i only just saw your post. So sorry for you loss, and am thinking of you and your cousin’s family. Prayers are (as they say) being offered, right now.

    We care about you, and send love to you and all of your family at this very difgicult time.

  77. @ Mark:
    Thnaks for the link – Donne and George Herbert (same time petiod; they knew each other) are two of my favorite poets.

  78. @ Michaela:
    Michaela, I’m not surprised that he called you – gay people go through so much rejection themselves. I’m willing to bet that he does things to reach out to others because he understands what you’re going through on a very fundamental level.

    So, belated wishes for a good 2015 to you, and to him, and to all of your loved ones.

  79. @ mirele:
    Well, his professional training has a lot to do with it, but overall, i think Warren is brilliant at calling people on their b.s. in a kind way. (As with the book he co-authored on David Barton’s fictional “history.”)

  80. numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Michaela, I’m not surprised that he called you – gay people go through so much rejection themselves. I’m willing to bet that he does things to reach out to others because he understands what you’re going through on a very fundamental level.

    So, belated wishes for a good 2015 to you, and to him, and to all of your loved ones.

    Thanks, numo! You are spot on about my gay hair dresser! Another example: He asked me to give the cost of my hair cut and color to my neighbors who were unemployed and had three small children and he sent me on my way. My neighbors’ children then drew pictures and wrote thank you cards to my gay hair dresser, Mark.

    Happy New Year to you, numo!

  81. @ Michaela:
    Your hairdresser sounds like he’s a rare soul! Glad you two know each other.

    And thanks for your kind wishes – they are very much appreciated.

  82. numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Your hairdresser sounds like he’s a rare soul! Glad you two know each other.

    And thanks for your kind wishes – they are very much appreciated.

    numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Your hairdresser sounds like he’s a rare soul! Glad you two know each other.

    And thanks for your kind wishes – they are very much appreciated.

    numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Your hairdresser sounds like he’s a rare soul! Glad you two know each other.

    And thanks for your kind wishes – they are very much appreciated.

    Numo, I really appreciate your thoughtful posts here at TWW and prompt responses to folks.

    Blessings to you and yours!

  83. numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Love the part about the cards and pictures, too!

    “Uncle Mark”, as I call my gay hair dresser, had me give to my unemployed neighbors at least $800 in cut and color fees that Mark would have charged me during the recession. Or he’d say, “Go buy a VISA gift card and give it to your neighbors.” So I did. Good man.

  84. @ Michaela:
    It’s wonderful to hear something *good.* we are inundated with bad news, while those who do good, kind things are not noticed (which is likely how they’d prefer it).

  85. numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    It’s wonderful to hear something *good.* we are inundated with bad news, while those who do good, kind things are not noticed (which is likely how they’d prefer it).

    You know, numo, that’s why I had such a hard time being at my former, hard-line church. I wanted to go hear about Jesus, worship Him, grow. And I was frequently inundated with members’ and the senior pastor’s nasty remarks about gays, including the senior pastor making comments about his gay brother-in-law.
    I said to church members (and the pastor) at various dinners: “You know all of the LGBT people that I know were sexually abused as children and when I’ve gotten to know them they’ve told me heartbreaking stories of being abused when I’ve asked them in confidence about their childhoods.” So maybe that’s not true of all LGBT, but it is true for all of the ones I know and have known. The senior pastor did say that his gay brother-in-law had been sexually abused as a child. And then the pastor sped by the topic. And he sticks to the story about his b-I-l standing condemned.

    I just couldn’t hate folks the way that so many at my former church wanted me to. It’s just not me.

  86. @ Michaela:
    All of this (no being able to hate) shows your character!

    As for all LGBTQ being abused, by no means is this true, but it certainly *is* true of a lot of people, regardless of their sexual orientation. “Gays were all sexually abused” was one of the big lines that the so-called “reparative therapy” crew (in and out of “ex-gay” ministries) used, and they just didn’t know what to do with people who were upfront about the fact that that had never, ever happened to them. I used to support one of the oldest Exodus International ministries, back in the early-mid 90s, and I *know* that that group and others like it would literally try to convince people that they *had* been sexually abused but were repressing their memories of it (and so on; they were big on “recovered memory” stuff at that time, as were many churches).

    btw, in case anyone is reading here who has been participating in the ODP, I have never been part of a fundamentalist church. Evangelical/charismatic with a discipleship movement structure (i.e., top-down, congregants have no say in anything and questioning is not allowed). It’s definitely something apart from fundamentalism, though, at the same time, highly authoritarian and controlling. But not like the IFB, or anything close. In fact, these churches tended to go on and on about how “open” and “safe” they were compared to typical discipleship movement churches. What they couldn’t/didn’t/wouldn’t see is that they replicated the same mistakes and problems, because it was in their basic setup – almost like DNA.

    fwiw…

  87. Hi Numo,

    I have heard about Exodus International, reparative therapy, etc. I don’t know anything about their workings so thanks for sharing what you know about them.
    (I only commented on what the people I know who are LGBT have told me about their abusive childhoods.)

    My ‘character’ just got me kicked out and shunned of my Bible-believing church here in Northern California. And my former church was highly controlling, authoritarian, and did not permit any questions (including about a sex offender in our midst). I don’t subscribe to the adults-as-idiots theory and that we’re ‘unsubmissive’ and ‘destined for Hell’ because we asked questions. They also subscribe to the ‘patriarchy’ ideas about women and children. I couldn’t get on board with those kinds of insufferable ideas.

  88. @ Michaela:
    Exodus ceased to exist a shade over a year ago, because they finally said – publicly – that there is no way to change a person’s sexual orientation. There are other, far more scary groups that have taken over in the ex-gay movement (what’s left of it), including partisans of a Holocaust revisionist named Scott Lively – he believes that all of the key players in GErmany during WWII were gay, and that their orientation = severe cruelty, up to and including the death camps and “final solution.”

    So they are fringe, but they behind the scenes influence in many places… like Uganda. Lively wrote an infamous book called The Pink Swastika. Large chunks of it were available on the Exodus site during the early-mid 90s. It is horrific.

  89. @ Michaela:
    I have been following your story/comments and am so very sorry that you’ve been going through all of this, simply for standing up for what is right. Wish there was something I could do to give you tangible support.

    Hugs,
    numo

  90. numo wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    I have been following your story/comments and am so very sorry that you’ve been going through all of this, simply for standing up for what is right. Wish there was something I could do to give you tangible support.

    Hugs,
    numo

    Thank you so much for your support and kindness, Numo! As an unbelieving (African-American) woman told me over Christmas dinner about my former church members who followed through with shunning me: “They weren’t really your friends. Your friends would defend you.” Me: “You know, I think you’re right!”

    But I feel I can…finally breathe. I found the whole patriarchy thing just insufferable. I am a follower of Jesus, not some dude(s) who is on a power trip over other people.

    It’s painful to be lied about too and to have everyone believe it. But oh well. The pastors/elders will get theirs. As the Bible says that when you dig a ditch for someone else you will fall into it your self.

    Psalm 7:15 “He has dug a pit and hollowed it out, And has fallen into the hole which he made.”

  91. Joe2 wrote:

    These men have pressed on and remain in successful ministries.

    They may have pressed on, but the influence of their ministries is a fraction of what it was before. Mainstream ministers wouldn’t dare share a pulpit or conference stage with them. In the same boat are Ted Haggard, Robert Tilton, and the list goes on. They don’t know any other way to make a living other than through tithes and offerings, so they reinvent themselves for the few hanger-on-ers that will follow them.

    Driscoll will undoubtedly suffer a similar fate. He knows there’s a good living to be made in fleecing the flock, so why should he go to work for a living like the pew sitters? And since his “fall” happened in the age of information, it’s unfortunate for him that Google never forgets. He’ll press on. He’ll have another platform, but reputable ministries will be embarrassed or unwilling to associate with him. It’s unlikely he’ll achieve the status he had during his days as despot at Mars Hill.

  92. Dee & Deb, you should feel really, really special! Mark notices you so much that when you link to markdriscoll.org from your site, you get a special “Terms of use page” that starts out with
    “TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE
    BY USING THE SITE, YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS OF USE; IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT USE THE SITE.”
    followed by all the copyright blah blah blah already discussed.

    Seriously. It says that.

    I will screen cap it and email it to you.

    When I just type in the link directly into the browser bar it goes to the regular site, so it’s from following the link to your site, not attached to an ip address.

  93. Michaela wrote:

    …about my former church members who followed through with shunning me: “They weren’t really your friends. Your friends would defend you.”

    This is a point that needs to be taken to heart by many who are devastated by the loss of relationships when they finally break free from or are jettisoned by a cultic church.

    Cultic churches are often able to build a following by setting up artificial friendships, often through care groups, small groups (or whatever per phrase the cult has for them). You might share some very fun times with these groups, but like the church and leadership itself, it is all “form of Godliness, but denying the power” stuff. It appears real, but scratch the surface a bit and you’ll find out what’s real and what’s false. My wife and I have learned this through hard experience.

    Friends are neither made nor lost quickly or easily. If someone is willing to go along with the shunning, they were never a friend from the outset.

  94. Michaela wrote:

    I’d like to know what Driscoll’s relationship with his father is/was. The men I know who espouse this overbearing treatment of their wives (and women in general and all of this ‘obey’ and ‘submit’ stuff) usually had: a) no relationships with their fathers; or b) bad relationships (with troubled, abusive) fathers.
    And I’d like to know

    This has been my anecdotal experience. I have yet to find a single young man involved in this sort of movement (Driscoll-esque neocalvinist authoritarian) who, when I found out about their relationship with father, didn’t have some horrific story. There is absolutely no exception to this in my experience.

    Representative examples at a church where I was on elder team:

    1). Abusive neocal cult pastor who’s father was a pharisaical, emotionally abusive type who was defrocked for carrying out multiple affairs with church members;

    2). Neocal follower who’s father was secretly doing drugs with him as an adolescent while maintaining image as solid church member;

    3). Multiple Neocal fanboys who’s fathers were abusive alcoholics;

    4). Neocal fanboy about whom I was told of father-son relationship “Don’t even ask, too horrific to talk about”;

    5). Right hand man/enforcer of #1 above who’s father was upstanding church member on outside, but was described as “incredibly violent” at home.

    I’ve described all of the leadership of that church. It really all seems to go back to the father.

  95. Law Prof wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    …about my former church members who followed through with shunning me: “They weren’t really your friends. Your friends would defend you.”

    This is a point that needs to be taken to heart by many who are devastated by the loss of relationships when they finally break free from or are jettisoned by a cultic church.

    Cultic churches are often able to build a following by setting up artificial friendships, often through care groups, small groups (or whatever per phrase the cult has for them). You might share some very fun times with these groups, but like the church and leadership itself, it is all “form of Godliness, but denying the power” stuff. It appears real, but scratch the surface a bit and you’ll find out what’s real and what’s false. My wife and I have learned this through hard experience….If someone is willing to go along with the shunning, they were never a friend from the outset.

    @Law Prof,

    Thanks for your insights and encouragement on my road to healing and about the loss of these church relationships. (I feel like I’ve just survived a very bad car crash, with what happened at this church.)

    I have contacted former church members here in Northern California and apologized to them for how badly they were treated by the pastors/elders. It was quite healing for them to hear from me. They said I am the only person from that church to have ever contacted them, apologized, and asked for forgiveness for being complicit (i.e. I didn’t know what to do at the time they were mistreated, I didn’t have a lot of involvement with what was going on, but I knew them to be dear saints and that what was done to them was wrong.).

    I contacted a godly doctor and his wife; the doctor was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned. He was lied about by the senior pastor before all of the members. (He and his wife have been married for 40+ years, have a loving marriage, loving relationships with their grown children.)

    The doctor had been generous with our church and our pastor. He even invited and paid for our pastor to accompany the doctor, Pastor John MacArthur (well known in Southern California and the doctor’s good friend of many decades), and another Christian man for a personal meeting in North Carolina with the Rev. Billy Graham at Rev. Graham’s log cabin home.

    Despite all that the good doctor did for our church and our senior pastor, the senior pastor (and other three elders) thought nothing of lying about him before all the church members, excommunicating him, and ordering that he be shunned. The doctor had questioned how they were leading the church and Biblical errors. It was despicable what the senior pastor did to that doctor and his wife!

    Other families left after that. (Some people, of course, defend the pastors/elders and any lies that they tell about anyone, including the doctor.)

  96. Law Prof wrote:

    Michaela wrote:

    I’d like to know what Driscoll’s relationship with his father is/was. The men I know who espouse this overbearing treatment of their wives (and women in general and all of this ‘obey’ and ‘submit’ stuff) usually had: a) no relationships with their fathers; or b) bad relationships (with troubled, abusive) fathers.

    This has been my anecdotal experience. I have yet to find a single young man involved in this sort of movement (Driscoll-esque neocalvinist authoritarian) who, when I found out about their relationship with father, didn’t have some horrific story. There is absolutely no exception to this in my experience. -Law Prof

    Thanks. That’s my experience too. My former senior pastor at this church where I was just excommunicated and shunned from was raised in a large family with a father (still alive) who used to beat my senior pastor and his siblings. Apparently violent beatings. My former pastor has a hair-trigger temper and is a bully behind closed doors. I don’t really see a difference between him and his father.

  97. @ Michaela: Did you hear about how Anne Graham Lotz and her husband were cheerily voted out of a church they were attending? The elder board and pastor feared their influences and it had to do with a power play. This event devastated Anne and her husband. Sounds like the pastor and elder board were afraid of the doctor and his wife. If your church was a church affiliated with the IFCA, I have heard there is a hairs breath difference between the response of the IFCa congregations towards sexual abuse and the IFB. In fact some IFB critics have told me that IFCA churches may really be the same thing as IFB. Would have never known this because I actually attended an IFCA church and I thought they were doctrinally sound, and they were really good people. Unfortunately the church I attended went through a church split because of the wacky teachings of Bill Gothard. Michaela, glad the church you attended excommunicated you because they sound cult-like , sorry to say. It is your former churches loss the people they shunned. I empathize that it hurts, nonetheless.

  98. @Mark,

    Funny that you should mention Anne Graham Lotz because I remembered earlier this afternoon that she had a bad church experience and so I was on amazon looking at her books to order that one. (I also like the fact that she calls herself ‘a pastor’ and I think she is truly gifted to teach the word of God.)

    Yes, I agree that my former church’s elder board/pastors were threatened by the godly doctor (and his wife was collateral damage) and that’s why they excommunicated him and shunned him. It was just disgraceful, Mark.

    As to my former independent Bible church’s affiliations…IFCA or IFB, I just don’t know. The senior pastor went to Pastor John MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary. However, even Pastor MacArthur is furious with my former pastor because the doctor that was excommunicated/shunned is a long-time, close friend of many decades to Pastor MacArthur’s and his wife’s.

    My sister was also glad that I was excommunicated from this cult-like church. She said to me recently that she feared given their extremist ways that I would have stopped talking to her…and we’re twins!

    Thanks for your empathizing with my situation, Mark. I am off to new adventures. Learning Bluegrass on Sunday! Just doing lots of nice, new things. Expanding my horizons, meeting new folks. The world is a big place and it’s time to enjoy it!

  99. @Mark,

    Gram 3 made this insightful comment about my former church’s pastors/elders:

    Lydia UNITED STATES on Fri Jan 02, 2015 at 03:32 PM said:

    Gram3 wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    I think that these pastors have over-identified with their ideology, so any perceived threat of exposure of the weaknesses of the system becomes a personal threat to them. That is why you, the person Michaela, are perceived by them as a greater threat than a pedophile or child pornographer is. It is totally irrational when viewed from the perspective of the Kingdom.
    If their identity were truly grounded in Christ rather than their system, then they would not hesitate to protect the children first, last, and always. But the proof of where their identity really lies is in what they value and what they work so hard to protect. They are into reputation management rather than sanctification.
    Based on what you have written, we have much in common WRT the experiences with “leadership” in the church.

    This nails it in a nutshell.

  100. @Mark,

    Gram 3 made this insightful comment today about my former church’s pastors/elders:

    @ Michaela:
    I think that these pastors have over-identified with their ideology, so any perceived threat of exposure of the weaknesses of the system becomes a personal threat to them. That is why you, the person Michaela, are perceived by them as a greater threat than a pedophile or child pornographer is. It is totally irrational when viewed from the perspective of the Kingdom.
    If their identity were truly grounded in Christ rather than their system, then they would not hesitate to protect the children first, last, and always. But the proof of where their identity really lies is in what they value and what they work so hard to protect. They are into reputation management rather than sanctification.
    Based on what you have written, we have much in common WRT the experiences with “leadership” in the church.

    Lydia added:

    This nails it in a nutshell.

  101. @ Michaela:
    Sorry for my question, but when you described the church it sounded familiar. It brought back some memories. Independent Bible Church is IFCA. They practice shunning. What is also interesting in what you describe is contact with Billy Graham. Graham has traditionally been viewed as a compromiser. IFCA practices a form of secondary separation. They will not participate in ecumenical evangelistic campaigns because it might be tainted by liberals, but they may have contact with individual evangelical Christians from outside their tradition. They had a mantra of enemies in the church hallway. One of the enemies were liberal organizations such as the National Education Assoviation. In my might at the time, their emphasis on the Bible covered all the red flags. I was told they were fundamental, but I really didn’t know the difference between conservative evangelical and fundamental. Now I would know the hairs breadth difference. Sorry, I am just trying to make sense of things.

  102. Mark wrote:

    @ Michaela:
    Sorry for my question, but when you described the church it sounded familiar. It brought back some memories. Independent Bible Church is IFCA. They practice shunning. What is also interesting in what you describe is contact with Billy Graham. Graham has traditionally been viewed as a compromiser…. I was told they were fundamental, but I really didn’t know the difference between conservative evangelical and fundamental. Now I would know the hairs breadth difference. Sorry, I am just trying to make sense of things.

    Thanks, Mark, for your insights and experiences with IFCA. I wish I knew the “hairs breadth difference” between conservative evangelical and fundamental.

    I do know that Pastor John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church in Southern California practices Church Discipline and shunning, which is probably where my former senior pastor learned it from since he went to church there and attended MacArthur’s The Master’s Seminary.

    I don’t know the entire details of Pastor John MacArthur’s trip to North Carolina to Rev. Billy Graham’s home, how that came about, and the two men from my church who went (the doctor and my senior pastor).

    I also know that reports have quickly gotten back to MacArthur and GCC about all of the problems at this Silicon Valley church plant (8 years old) and that GCC has considered my senior pastor to be a “loose cannon” for many years.

    The former church secretary, a very conservative woman and married for 35+ years, refuses to go to my former church any more after what she observed the pastors/elders do. Her husband still attends. To protect herself from church discipline with the elders upon her “exit meeting” she brought her new pastor with her, unannounced to the pastors/elders; her new pastor is a conservative Presbyterian. That bought her protection as the pastors/elders could not discipline, threaten, and bully her in front of an outside pastor!

    As for me, I just wanted to go to church, hear the Word of God, worship Him, and be with the saints. I left a large mega church (I’d been invited by a friend) where I thought they played loose with doctrine, it was too anonymous, and I found the pastor arrogant (he stepped down several months later due to an affair). I thought this smaller church (100+ people) with sound Biblical teaching was a safe harbor from the excesses of the megachurch. I was wrong.

  103. I walked out of a SBC megachurch. The pastor wasn’t an adulterer as far as I know, but it was impersonal. The pastor was definitely authoritarian and I didn’t have problems with his doctrine, but my concerns were more with style. I attended independent churches. Friends of GARBC background were attending a bbfi, or bible baptist church, which I visited, and I visited and almost joined the independent bible church. The difference between conservative evangelical and fundamentalist has to do with the degree to which secondary separation is followed. Now I was an anachronism among the conservative evangelicals. I am left of center as far as political philosophy, but pretty theologically right of center. I also don’t feel comfortable with politics in the church. Voter drives in between church services scare me. Former secretary was smart taking an advocate with her before that church court.

  104. @Mark,

    People who left my independent Bible church said that they did not like it for a number of reasons:

    1. An executive (his father is a pastor in another state) and his wife left because they disagreed with the powers the four church pastors/elders claimed over the lives of members. He told me after my recent excommunication/shunning that while the qualifications of an elder are stated in Scripture, you will not find Scripture to back up the powers that these elders claimed over members’ lives.

    2. Other families said that they left this church:

    * because it seemed exclusive (which it is) with an ‘inner circle’ of the pastors/elders friends’ while everyone else is essentially ignored;

    *they had been warned by family members who were long-time Christians about the dangers of joining an independent church/church plant that had no outside authority and checks & balances and that was a recipe for disaster;

    *they didn’t like the public humiliation of members (such as the shunning of the doctor);

    *they didn’t like the authoritarian style of the pastors/elders and found it suspect and un-Biblical; and

    *they didn’t like being screamed at in ‘counseling sessions’ with the senior pastor (which he does do and many wives refused to ever go back to that church after this kind of mistreatment).

    I’m with you on the political and theological views too. And I found the whole patriarchy views of my church’s pastors/elders (‘obey’ and ‘submit’) to be absolutely insufferable and the contempt for women, which frankly gives rise to all kinds of abuses. (My former senior pastor was raised by a violent father who used to beat him and his siblings. And the men I know who subscribe to these authoritarian beliefs had: a) no relationships with their fathers; or b) very bad relationships with abusive fathers.)

  105. __

    Mark Driscoll has yet to begin a creditable string of initiatives aimed at resurrecting and restoring his ‘brand’ relevance in today’s skeptical 501(c)3 non-profit ‘church consumer business’ climate.

  106. __

    I have yet to see 501(c)3 employees waveing ‘I’m lovin Mark’ flags behind an offering till at MarkDriscoll.com.

    🙂