Christianity Politicized: How Arminians and Calvinists Lost Their Kids and the Gospel

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." –Mark Twain 

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On February 4, 2014, Anthony Bradley wrote a fascinating post: How Evangelicals Sold Out To Politics And Lost Their Kids In The Process.  Bradley contends that evangelicalism, consisting of Calvinists, Arminians, Reformed and Dispensational adherents, were unified in the last century when they were addressed the issues of theological liberalism.

I believe that he, along with most others, would define theological liberalism as that which denied the primary essentials of the faith. Issues of such liberalism would include the denial of certain assumptions of the great Creeds such as the divinity of Christ, the Cross and Resurrection. It rejected a traditional adherence to Scriptural authority in favor of ethics.

Liberalism tends to emphasize ethics over doctrine and experience over Scriptural authority. While essentially a 19th century movement, theological liberalism came to dominate the American mainline churches in the early 20th century.

Of course it is far more complex than that brief description but it gives us a basis for understanding Bradley's thesis. Bradley believes that the unity against theological liberalism morphed into a fight against social and political liberalism. In other words, evangelicals became conservative Republicans.

Evangelicalism allowed herself to be co-opted by suburban conservative Reagan/Bush era deistic God and country political operatives who used evangelical leader’s influence for votes & promised (fleeting) legislative and executive branch access and influence in return. That never happened. In other words, evangelical leaders sold their churches out for politics in the 1970s through the early 1990s and lost their kids in the process.

We do not discuss specific political process initiatives on this blog for two reasons. We believe that people of good will can disagree on legislation or candidates to solve various problems. Secondly, we have enough fights over theological issues and we frankly do not want to get into food fights on how to address global warming.

We do not want anyone to assume that we are making a political statement by this post. Instead, we are looking at one pundit's assessment on what led to the alienation of faith adherence in the younger generations.

He asserted that evangelicals became increasingly as identified as white, suburban, upwardly mobile as well as conservative politically.

Evangelicalism was a 1980s/1990s political/social community that adopted a suburban politically conservative posture toward those on welfare, low-income whites, inner-city blacks and Latinos, instead of one driven by the sacraments. 

Parents want *nice* kids. *Nice* is defined, in this instance, as kids who are like their parents.

A political/social community that wanted good, socially & politically conservative kids,

However, their kids had a different idea.

Their kids wanted connection, their parents wanted to win the “culture war.”

At the turn of the millennium,  evangelical leaders decided that they had to change "business as usual" but they have not been successful.

This has not worked because of the influence of non-denominationalism, celebrity Christianity, theological tribalism, etc. There is no longer a space where Arminians and Calvinists share a common theological enemy

…They lost Gen Xers and Millennials between 1990 & 2010 by lusting after political influence.

Even the Gospel™ no longer provide unity.

"The Gospel” is not enough of a common mission because even that word is defined according to theological preferences.

Scot McKnight offered a different point of view on Bradley's conclusions.

1. Carl Henry overtly engaged evangelicals in overtly conservative politics over the span of his entire career. He set up shop for CT across the street from the White House. Read his memoir. I have long longed for a Stott-era and Graham-era village green, generic evangelicalism and I agree that those days are not going to return. Evangelicalism is more tribal now.

3. Carl Henry’s crowd (Molly Worthen) was by and large Calvinist and Reformed; major segments of evangelicalism have been disenfranchised (again, Worthen).

4. Yes, a common enemy was found in social liberalism for some evangelicals but not for all.

5. But why “lost their kids”? Two considerations: first, the evidence is against the conclusion (correlation, causation issue arises here as well) that they “lost” their kids, as seen in Christian Smith and Bradley Wright; second, they didn’t so much lose their kids but their kids shifted toward a more left-leaning politics.

This should give us plenty to chew on as we eat our leftovers. Once again, we thank God for our readers!

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 26:17-27:46 Matthew 9:1-17 Psalm 10:16-18 Proverbs 3:9-10

 

 

Comments

Christianity Politicized: How Arminians and Calvinists Lost Their Kids and the Gospel — 153 Comments


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    Furst???


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    I agree that when we put any sort of politics ahead of, and above, the Cross, we are ultimately preaching a weak message. As Paul says, the only power we have is that of Christ crucified.

    I can’t say this with absolute certainty, but I don’t believe that the slave issue of the 1800’s was a “you aren’t a ‘real’ Christian” issue. Today, we obviously look back at that and can’t imagine how a self-proclaimed follower of Christ could possibly support slavery in any form, but whether or not that was a general sentiment…there are no significant evidences of this huge political force conflating the “true” Christians with abolition.

    To compare it to today, many might say, I can’t imagine a Christian supporting abortion. Whether or not that is a correct sentiment, we have raised the issue in a political way and conflated it into the sphere of theology as to infer that a “true Christian” has to be pro-life. Which creates an artificial wall for many people. EVEN IF it is the correct viewpoint, people will not be saved and become co-heirs for Christ based upon their political position regarding this issue.


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    The first thing in my mind is that I’m not convinced we have “lost our kids.” Sure, many are not clones of us. Many don’t show up at the 501(c)3 known as church on Sunday. That doesn’t mean they are out of the faith. And while, indeed if, they disagree with us politically, that doesn’t mean we “lost” them.

    What I am seeing is they are just living their faith the way they see fit. Just as my generation did and does.

    Not a big deal unless you depend on that 501(c)3 for your paycheck.


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    I don’t see any great unity between various denominational groups in the past century except in opposition to certain cultural and theological trends. To come along now and say that certain groups are more tribal, I always thought they were back then too. Compare say the SBC (semi-calvinist mostly then) and the free will baptists (arminian) and where is the agreement on theology, then or now? I always experienced it as tribalism, and in a big way. So, I am not sure where these people are coming from. And lost their kids? How do they define that, and who determines what the criteria are to define lostyoukidness?

    Maybe the Great Kahn could pull warring tribes together for a while, but that sort of thing may not last for too long. “They” came up with the idea of evangelicalism as some sort of bigger tent, but I don’t see where anybody ever actually sold their old tent. They just agreed on a few things for a while.

    Maybe I am missing the point, but I don’t get it.


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    @ Nancy:

    Khan, I think.


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    In my part of Canada, the prairie provinces, church history in the early 20th Century mirrored a lot of what is described above, except in the opposite political direction. The evangelical and mainline churches at that time both shared a concern for the gospel (aka: preaching the Word, salvations, faith in Christ, in essence the internal and individual impact of faith) and social issues (external, community impact of faith) equally and were very involved in community change. A shift happened, however, during labour disputes in Winnipeg. The churches (now I’m speaking of general consensus, rather than how each individual congregation may have reacted) supported the workers because of the horrific conditions and many churches became platforms for the workers rights with the pulpit being used for speeches and sermons of solidarity etc. The riot in 1919 in Winnipeg by the workers caused many Christians to become wary of the movement and also concerned that the social issues were overshadowing the gospel message. In essence, that was happening on a very real level. The more mainline churches began to shift towards a theology of social change as being more crucial than the internal change of salvation, and the evangelical churches reacted with concern at this idea, and began to emphasize the internal aspect of the gospel as being primary over societal change. So, an ideological split happened that is still in place to this day. The result? The more mainline churches aligned themselves with causes that would be considered liberal/left in nature. In my province, Saskatchewan, our most well known premier, Tommy Douglas, was a United church minister who brought in universal health care and started the New Democratic Party (a left wing party that is now the federal official opposition to our government). (An aside, Tommy Douglas’ daughter, Shirley, became an actor and married Donald Sutherland. Their son is Kiefer Sutherland.) The evangelical churches concerned themselves with the gospel message of salvation and the internal work of Christ. But, and this is the crux, it was the mainline churches that lost the youth over the next decades. Several very influential revivals happened in the prairies in the fifties (latter rain movement and Pentecostal revival) and seventies (Jesus People) and people planted themselves in churches that understood and embraced what was happening to them internally as they powerfully encountered God. The mainline churches slowly emptied and aged, while the evangelical and charismatic churches grew and thrived (1950’s-80’s).

    Now it seems there is a shift back towards a social gospel emphasis, a century later. The political liberal ideas that permeated the church in the beginning of the 20th century eventually alienated the youth because it was disconnected to the reality of what God was doing on a large scale level and was ignored the reality of the internal work of God. I would argue the same is happening now. The politically conservative ideas that permeate the evangelical church in the late 20th and early 21st century are alienating the youth because it is disconnected from what is happening all around them (discrimination against gays, cognizance of world issues on a before unheard of way because of the immediacy of the internet etc) and seems to ignore the reality of the external influence of God in favour of an individual relationship with God and the hypocrisy between the internal and external worlds (as documented so well on WW) is an issue to the youth. (Again, these are just my theories, so feel free to disagree, I just see a lot of parallels!)

    My ultimate theory? God will continue to build His church and draw everyone to Himself in varying ways through varying historical and political realities. The evangelical church will age and decline, and that’s ok, because the Church (big C) is a people and a spiritual reality, not a building, ideology or specific doctrine. So, enjoy the ride people! (Dee, feel free to not post if this is too long or too rambling!)


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    Nancy, Linda and Adam…spot on!


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    linda wrote:

    That doesn’t mean they are out of the faith. And while, indeed if, they disagree with us politically, that doesn’t mean we “lost” them.

    Yeah. My kids went from baptist to episcopalian. Does that mean I “lost them?” I think not, and I want to say “watch our mouth” to anybody who would say so. That kind of talk makes me look ignorant and inflexible and makes them look rebellious and irresponsible. Really? I mean, really?

    I think these gentlemen (Bradley especially) who want to talk about people losing their kids need to maybe limit their conversation to the latest thing at Starbucks or other safe topics. Mama bear and all that, don’t you know.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    EVEN IF it is the correct viewpoint, people will not be saved and become co-heirs for Christ based upon their political position regarding this issue.

    I agree. Although I am now pro-life, I wasn’t for the first couple of years after my conversion. As you may know, I have a rather unique conversion story (during an episode of Star Trek.) It also occurred in the Boston area which is not known for its conservative outlook on life.

    There is no question that I was a Christian. I believed with my whole heart. However, I had not been around anyone that could help me to take a comprehensive outlook on my faith. No matter the issue, it is believing in Jesus Christ that is the basis of our salvation alone.


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    @ Nancy:
    I think Bradley is referencing the “Nones,” not kids who’ve done what yours have. Though I can think of more than a few parents whose understanding of their kids’ moves to other churches have *not* been like yours – they think their kids really *are* “lost.”

    I agree that things have always been tribal, but post-80s-90s-00s version of the Culture Wars, my hunch is that there has been a relapse into “tribalism” and suspicion of Others Who Are Not Like Us on all sides. There has been a lot of discussion of these things over the past 8+ years at blogs like Internet Monk, which is linked in this blog’s sidebar.

    Just my .02-worth.


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    christians will always loose the culture wars……..

    Kinda like trying to set a lamb next to a wolf. The wolf will win and the lamb will loose no matter what political agenda goes on.

    When children understand the truth via. logic of scripture (study Qumran calendar to assist if needed) and its coordination with universe then the puzzle fits together better.

    Lost is a good word…..for those who can’t quite put the puzzle together in the right way. A political call for everyone to pick up a dollar store bible will only happen when all the scientists make a discovery of its unique nature and difference from the culture 😉


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    Bradley’s entire premise is very generalized and he doesn’t define what he means by “lost their kids.” How is someone reading going to make sense of his article at all without an understanding of what he actually means about losing your kids. He ends up sounding like a “fear” inflictor. Not much different than Morris with his titheorbadthingsmayhappentoyou teaching.


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    numo wrote:

    blogs like Internet Monk,

    So maybe this is sort of a continuation from over there? I used to read internet monk some, but I lost interest after what’s his name died–I can’t remember his name right now. Anyhow, for the purposes of what is said on this post, I like McKnight’s take on lost children better than Bradley’s. I am thinking that Bradley sounds like he judges people too harshly, sounds too ready to call some kid a lost kid, and exhibits perhaps a tone of schadenfreude since he apparently objected to the said politics and apparently approved of the evangelical big tent idea. But, I know next to nothing about the man and I may well have misjudged the situation based on too little information.

    FWIW, I think that people can think what they want about denoms or big tents or politics, but they should tread carefully in calling somebody a lost kid even if they are not “in church” right now, or if they are in a different church, or even if they married into another church (that used to be the big no no). Now if he had said that studies show that X% of children who grow up in (name of denomination) no longer consider themselves to be christians and Y% of these cite political differences with their parents as the cause of their current religious status, that would be another thing, But here again he may have said that elsewhere and I just don’t know it. Or maybe I just don’t like the tone of his voice, I don’t know so I won’t say any more.


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    @ Bridget:

    I think Bradley is basing his essay on the polls that show a decline in church attendance in the Gen X and Millennial groups. Think “nones.”We have documented the decline in numbers in church attendance through the last 5 years. There has been an uptick in the number of those leaving in the 30-50 range.

    His analysis: the definition of the word Gospel, the inability to unite around common themes, etc. seems to track with what we write about here.

    Although I disagree with Rachel Held Evans on a few issues, I always check to see what she is writing about. She seems to speak for many in her age group.


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    The church is going to have to stop being associated with politicians, especially the evangelical church.
    Not everyone who is SBC is Republican. Many youth today don’t want politics infused in their faith.
    I cringe when Green Acres Baptist Church, the largest SBC Church in Tyler, TX, invites Louie Gohmert ( U.S. Rep.) to speak at their Sunday Morning services. ( the church has their service broadcast on Tyler TV Sunday mornings.)
    Is God a Republican? Is God a Democrat? I have a funny feeling God holds both parties in distain. And most youth cant stand politicians. ( look at the percetage who vote.)
    You want to do what is intended? Preach the Gospel, not the GOP.


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    dee wrote:

    I think Bradley is basing his essay on the polls that show a decline in church attendance in the Gen X and Millennial groups. Think “nones.”

    A none is completely different than “lost kids” to me. I’m a none and a babyboomer 🙂 I’m not lost (which to me is an unbeliever). So, he didn’t do a good job at defining his words. He could be in the camp that considers “nones” unbelievers because they are not in a 501c3 institution. I have heard this proclaimed from the pulpit.


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      __

    “Food 4 Thought”

    Among other things…

    • Teens are very connected to each other now and don’t need church to ‘hook up’ anymore. 

      Since the beginning of Christianity, the church has coasted on the assurance that teenagers would at least come to church to see each other, if for no other reason. 

    Well, now they have texting, Facebook and Myspace, YouTube etc. so they’ve effectively eliminating the ‘middleman’…

    (bump)

    Why would they want to come sit through another boring message just to hang out with friends when all their friends are now as close as their computer, iPad, or cell phone? 

    Real spiritual substance within community has to be the draw– not just community. 

    Because there’s probably somewhere or something else that does community better than church.”

    (and ‘safer’ and ‘cheaper’ as well…)

    “Sad but true.”

    🙁

    Sopy
    __
    Reference:
    https://fhcleadership.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/why-teens-dont-go-to-church/


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    A couple things. Dr. Bradley comes at this from a PCA (conservative Presbyterian) angle. In the interest of follow disclosure, I do follow his Facebook feed and read a number of his blog posts. I don’t think he could be fully lumped in the same categories as a Morris or even certified conservative Republican.

    1) In terms of “lost kids,” his definition would roughly be along the lines of the so-called none category, even yielding some variations of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism (MTD). He would need to speak for himself, but his definition of “lost kids” would very likely include many within nondenominational and other evangelical circles, and not be so focused on liberal Christians.

    2) Politics, for Bradley, more or less came to define the lines of Christianity. I think that sentiment is encapsulated in “There is no longer a space where Arminians and Calvinists share a common theological enemy…”

    In other words, very little focus is on the core theological elements of the faith. Some commentators would label this (little “o”) orthodoxy (as would I) because there are certain core beliefs which make you a Christian – a-la the deity of Christ, trinitiarianism, etc. Instead, the battle lines become things like gay marriage, abortion, etc. Those are now the litmus test.

    Putting aside stereotypes, poll the average mainliner or evangelical and there would be an arena of agreement with some shades to the right or left in terms of those core (orthodox) issues. However, start polling the political issues and you begin to note a clear divergence, and these church congregations are often very much defined by these issues, even with the exceptions.

    Thus, we have this exit ramp where the younger generation refers to itself as “spiritual but not religious” because the entire working connotation of religious refers to the Pharisaical tendency for laws and customs above heart and people.

    I’ve grown up in both Baptist (SBC) and Methodist (UMC) traditions and my thought was that I always longed to see a fusion of the Baptist intense personal faith with the Methodist desire to get out and do. In other words, the marrying of personal salvation narrative (properly influenced/tempered by social connection) joined with the so-called social gospel. Social gospel is code for liberal and personal salvation is code for conservative, and the politics are easy to guess from there, which I think validates much of what Dr. Bradley said.


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    laura wrote:

    Kinda like trying to set a lamb next to a wolf. The wolf will win and the lamb will loose no matter what political agenda goes on.

    i flatly disagree that politicized evangelical Christians are lambs. IMHO, some of the are wolves determined to destroy education. As a result, we get crazymaking like the recent Texas textbook approval process, where Moses is listed as one of the foundations of law in the USA. As a graduate of a Texas law school, I can say bluntly that Moses was *never* mentioned in my courses.


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    @ Nancy:
    Again, i truly think he is talking about the Nones, as well as – in his words – those who went with so-called “emergent” movements.

    I don’t think Dee expected this to be so polarizing!


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    @ mirele:
    Yeas, I’m in your corner on this one. Am also from a state where creationism – as a replacement for actual science in public school,classes – was a polarizing issue back in the late 90s-early 00s.


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    I’d also like to argue that perhaps the kids are not in the churches because the churches don’t speak to them where they’re at in their lives. And I’m not talking about politics. I’m talking about basic stuff like lifestyle. Churches put a whole lot of emphasis on marrying and raising families. TWW has talked about how Boomers feel pushed out of church as a result. What about young people who have graduated from college and are living at home because they’re un/underemployed? What about young people who are working a couple of jobs and going to college part time because that’s the only way they can make ends meet up against crushing college tuition and loans that have to be repaid? What about young married couples working to make ends meet because they’re underemployed?

    Demographically, young people are returning home after college and getting married older. They’re underemployed and unemployed. If they’re married, they’re working their tails off to afford a place to live . If they have kids, ditto. The churches seem to be operating on the idea that husbands work and wives stay at home with the kids**. Most people I know can’t afford the luxury of doing that. And then if they go to many churches, the price of membership is profoundly steep for them: 10 percent off the top of their income. When you’re poor, that can make the difference between eating and heating or not eating and no heat.

    I’m hearing nothing from the churches as the economic fortunes of younger Americans slide further into the toidy. Instead, they’re chasing after an ever-diminishing segment of the American population that can fit into the mold of middle-class traditional roles.

    **Go look on evangelical Protestant websites and see when womens’ meetings or Bible studies are held. Usually on some weekday, from 9:30 am to 11:00 am. I don’t know about you, but the moms I know are at work during that time of the day and they’re not taking time off work to go to a church meeting.


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    mirele wrote:

    the churches don’t speak to them where they’re at in their lives. And I’m not talking about politics. I’m talking about basic stuff like lifestyle

    Agreed, mirele. I wonder if there is also some disdain for a pastor who has never had to deal with the realities of the secular workplace. It limits his ability to speak to the pressures of real life, which leaves otherworldly issues. When the scriptures, especially the Epistles, speak clearly to both.


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    And pastors, of course, must always be a “he.”


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    @ Sopwith:
    Great points about connecting with and between teens, Sopy!

    Thank you so much for bringing them up here, and finding that link. Spot on.


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    GSD wrote:

    I wonder if there is also some disdain for a pastor who has never had to deal with the realities of the secular workplace. It limits his ability to speak to the pressures of real life, which leaves otherworldly issues. When the scriptures, especially the Epistles, speak clearly to both.

    You have hit the nail on the head. Read Bradley’s “about” page. He lives in an ivory tower situation, too.

    These types have nothing to teach us about being Image Bearers in the real- every- day world. Most pastors are even worse. They are clueless as to what is going on out there but all they know is that they have to have nickels and noses in the pews to survive. People have to come to church or their salvation is questioned.

    And, when the “church” is treacherous in the Name of Jesus, the real world actually looks safer. What do most churches want from us these days? Our money, time and adoration of the pastor. And most folks have little of first two these days and are weary of the latter.

    I spent Thanksgiving with a bi-vocational pastor who is also a journalist. His very small church– which in constant need of repair– instead– rebuilt a home for a single mom, replaced someone’s roof, bought a used car for a needy member, sent a member’s alcoholic son to rehab, etc. It is a true fellowship. Everyone pitches in what they can. They actually spend time dealing with real world issues–together.


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    @ Lydia:
    Somehow i think “fortified bunker” (of the Moscow, Idaho) type is a lot more to the point than “ivory tower.” The Kings College is a joke.


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    @ Lydia:
    Fwiw, I’d like to point out that teaching on the college level is an evety day, real-world job. Most people who do it are at a greater remove from the elite of,,say, the Ivy Leaugue schools than earth is from heaven. You make it s8und like it’s all super high-paying and insulated fromm”the real world,” but most people in those jobs get modest salaries, have kids in public school and shop at the same grocery stores and go to the same mechanics and plumbers as everybody else. Please don’t make the mistake of assuming that they’re all light the high and mighty at your local Southern Baptist seminary.


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    @ numo:
    Also fwiw, those plumbers make more than most of us liberal arts grads ever will. I had immediate family who used to teach, and they scraped by just like most everyone else. I used to know people who assumed that all college professors were rich. Nothing could be further from the truth.


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    @ dee:
    Dee, after looking at the writer’s “about” page, i have to wonder how you chose his piece over something by Chaplain Mike or Matthew Paul Turner or…? Not saying this to be critical – this guy is in a rather highly partisan camp himself, given where he works. (Note: it’s not a place i would ever want to work, though i actually did get pressured to take a job there, way back when.)


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    @ mirele:
    Yes. You’re very on-target here.


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    @ numo:

    This is Kings College in New York. I don’t know that it is related to the Idaho clan.


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    @ Bridget:
    I know what it is, and the mentality has some marked similarities. Although the people in NYC might not like to admit that… they are ultra-conservative, *very* complementaria, etc. etc.


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    @ Bridget:
    See also my comment of 8:12, about pressure being put on me to accept a job at this place – though that was back when it was located north of Manhattan. (A good while ago at that.)


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    Yes! Agreed!


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    Yes! Agreed!linda wrote:

    The first thing in my mind is that I’m not convinced we have “lost our kids.” Sure, many are not clones of us. Many don’t show up at the 501(c)3 known as church on Sunday. That doesn’t mean they are out of the faith. And while, indeed if, they disagree with us politically, that doesn’t mean we “lost” them.
    What I am seeing is they are just living their faith the way they see fit. Just as my generation did and does.
    Not a big deal unless you depend on that 501(c)3 for your paycheck.


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    @ mirele:

    As a single 20-something (albeit for only a few more years… on the 20-something part, not the single part… that’ll likely never change, though now I could actually get married in my state, LOL), I can attest to the accuracy of mirele’s analysis based on the stories of so many of my peers. My own story isn’t quite so dire; I’ve experienced little unemployment and don’t have unrealistically large college debt. Still, I feel internally disconnected from my church for reasons that I’ve discussed in the past.

    And that thing about women’s study groups meeting during the middle of the workday? That’s ohmygosh so true! In my church, it’s only the retired women who attend. The working women have asked about having the studies at other times, but nothing has ever come of those requests. Maybe someday they’ll figure it out; I’m not going to hold my breath…


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    @ Josh:
    Maybe you – and they – need to head out for other kinds of churches.


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    @ mirele:

    A lot of that is true for Gen X as well.

    If you’re a single, childless person and over 35, churches don’t speak to your life situation but really continue to channel all of their concern to young families (married couples who have children at home).

    A lot of churches also very preoccupied on how to entice kids, teenagers, and college students to attend of join.
    —–
    As to the original post, which surmises that a lot of millennials and Gen X are left of center while churches became too right wing, that isn’t so with me.
    I still remain on the right concerning theology and politics, but I have really tired of Christians or churches that mix the two constantly.

    I agree with the conservative approach to the Bible and morals, etc, but that does not mean I want every other sermon or Christian show to be only about how horrible abortion is (and I am pro-life), or how horrible liberals are, and so on.

    (And the marriage sermons. Mercy, I wish preachers would stop with the constant stream of sermons about how to improve one’s marriage, or how one can achieve God’s vision for one life.)


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    Hey Marie2,

    🙂


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    “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” –Mark Twain

    Tell Mr Sam Clemens that I’m doubling down on the latter.
    (My job deals with gov’t agencies.)


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    Parents want *nice* kids. *Nice* is defined, in this instance, as kids who are like their parents.

    “I shall call him — MINI-ME!”


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    @ numo:

    Actually I should have been more specific. I was thinking more along the lines of “seminary” when reading his blog.

    but I do disagree with you about the ivory tower and real world. just take a look at the trajectory of tuition over the last 20 years and the unbelievable building projects that have gone on in colleges and universities all over America. then take a look at the amount of debt for the average graduate. and this huge debt comes mostly from being taught by associate professors and adjunct faculty. is not realistic and it cannot sustain itself.


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    I guess I was thinking of Matt B. Redmond, and his excellent blog about how his perspective on life has changed, now that he is employed by a bank instead of a church. And how I wish more of the pastoral types I’ve known could share his experience. I think it has a great deal to do with the disconnect.

    And perhaps we haven’t lost the kids, but they’ve left us behind.

    And I’ve always considered plumbing a noble profession, and far more useful than my English degree.


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    @ Lydia:
    It certainly isn’t about faculty salaries, at least not until you get to the top tier of administrators and … football coaches.

    The big u. near here is going great guns on a building program while simultaneously cutting jobs. Maybe the problem is that there are too many corporate types on boards and in administration. Of course, God forbid they mske any cuts to the football budget! That’s their cash cow; they get tons of alumni donations from it.


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    @ GSD:
    I don’t think any differently than you about plumbing, and wish i knew more about it. But i don’t regret my education, eithrr.


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    @ Lydia:
    Well, adjuncts make next to nothing.


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    @ numo:
    I never said being a prof was high paying. but it can be very insular.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    Well, adjuncts make next to nothing.

    Tell me about it. I am one. :o)


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    numo wrote:

    , i have to wonder how you chose his piece over something by Chaplain Mike or Matthew Paul Turner or…

    I found his post interesting. Please note that I also quoted Scot McKnight.


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    @ DH:
    Welcome to TWW and thank you for your thoughtful comment.


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    GSD wrote:

    And perhaps we haven’t lost the kids, but they’ve left us behind.

    Well said!


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    @ dee:
    I saw that. But someone from Kings? He seems not to get the whole Nones thing…


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    @ Lydia:
    You’re right – it can be, but that doesn’t mean it always happens.


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    numo wrote:

    I don’t think any differently than you about plumbing, and wish i knew more about it. But i don’t regret my education, eithrr.

    Agreed, I don’t regret my degree either. But as I tell the Alumni Association, I’ll give them some money as soon as I use my degree to actually make some! That may have more to do with my choice of a major that is really only useful as a step toward further education, such as (gasp) seminary, than with the value of higher ed. And thankfully, I got into a completely different profession that I still enjoy. Mostly.


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    mirele wrote:

    I’m hearing nothing from the churches as the economic fortunes of younger Americans slide further into the toidy. Instead, they’re chasing after an ever-diminishing segment of the American population that can fit into the mold of middle-class traditional roles.

    **Go look on evangelical Protestant websites and see when womens’ meetings or Bible studies are held. Usually on some weekday, from 9:30 am to 11:00 am. I don’t know about you, but the moms I know are at work during that time of the day and they’re not taking time off work to go to a church meeting.

    Good take mirele. How can they (traditionalist model) survive if they’re this divorced from reality?


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    numo wrote:

    Maybe you – and they – need to head out for other kinds of churches.

    Oh, I think about it with increasing frequency as time goes on. What is it called – is it Stockholm syndrome – I think I might have, because I’ve been concerned about the ministries in which I’ve been heavily involved, which would be affected by my likely departure, while the church may well have few qualms kicking me to the curb were they to figure out that I’m not quite like all the others in every way deep down inside.

    GSD wrote:

    And I’ve always considered plumbing a noble profession, and far more useful than my English degree.

    My education is in a different field, but I have admired the level of design and skill that is brought to bear on a formidable job by a talented master of the plumbing arts. My respect for plumbers only grew after I replaced the toilet in my bathroom. That was – terrible pun fully intended – a crappy job.


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    @ Josh:
    Josh – if i were you, I’d leave *before* they figure it out. Having been kicked to the curb myself (albeit for entirely different reasons), i would far rather see you do something proactive rather than get stomped on. The repercussions are no fun, either, and are potentially greater for you than they ever were for me.


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    @ Josh:
    Listen, you aren’t irreplaceable per the ministries, and you might well be happier doing the same kinds of things elsewhere. Being forced out of my ex-church’s music ministry – and losing not only that role but the cameraderie and friendships – was THE worst thing i went through. (Along with music people being told not to speak with me or communicate with me by phone or email, that is.)


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    I think the point is largely accurate, though probably in reality conservative politics is one of a number of factors that alienate people from the church, but a major one in many cases. Speaking from my own experience and that of my kids as well as several friends, rigid conservative politics have certainly been a barrier to church involvement. Where I live there are a lot of people who assume you either can’t be a Christian or will never be a good one if your politics are not right-wing. One friend during a 6-month search for a new church talked with the pastor of a large local congregation who stated plainly that he didn’t see how a person could be both a Democrat and a Christian. For myself, this mindset has certainly been one of the more significant factors in becoming one of the nones. The reality is that in most cases we will never be accepted as one of the tribe until we conform in this area. There were other factors, to be sure (e.g. church as theatre/performance; shallow sermons — including illustrations that one can go home and find on Snopes; lack of pastoral care or interest; cliquishness; etc), but the political aspect definitely looms large. BTW, both I and the friend I mentioned are in our 50s, so it’s not just the younger generations that are affected.


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    I have said it in church, I will say it here: You can’t fight God’s war with the Devil’s weapons, and politics is the Devil’s weapon. When the church gives up preaching the Gospel to preach anything else, including political activism, it has strayed from its Divine purpose and is doomed to fail, both at whatever it’s trying to do (in this case, politics) and its true purpose.


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    Bridget wrote:

    A none is completely different than “lost kids” to me.

    That is what I think too. Basing decisions on who is or is not a believer on church attendance is a bad idea, especially since our culture is rife with lots of ways to be “churchy” without being “in church,” as if being “churchy” or “in church” were the goal in the first place, which as a protestant I think it is not. I suspect the Deebs may have somewhat similar feelings about what constitutes a believer since they offer E-Church here at TWW (and first rate quality at that.) There are non-believers on the pew and there are believers not on the pew, and we need a better determinant of who has or has not abandoned the faith.

    I personally have had to make the decision of following Jesus or following the church (which was seriously off the track) but that did not make me an apostate and unbeliever. It put me in the camp of some believers who have to make difficult choices. I had to resign from a certain job once, also, for ethical reasons, but that did not make me permanently unemployed and liking it. Eventually I got back “in church” but that was never the issue between God and me, only between the church and me.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    Furst???

    Imagine your furstation if you had been second!

    Honestly, though: congrats!


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    The churches had a “culture” composed of beliefs and customs. These determined who were the “we” and who were the “they.” When this ecumenical and big tent and huge evangelistic crusade and such came along a lot of compromises were made in the living out of customs and the preaching and teaching of beliefs. But part of what kept the big tent up was celebrity (Billy Graham for example-who was really good at what he did-and the US loves celebrities) and money and the excitement of the crowd, and part of it was that the big tent did not require nearly as much of the individual either in terms of catechesis or life style, and of course the culture war fought with political methodologies.

    Now I hear beliefs being thrown in with the pejorative “tribalism” and customs being called laws and denounced as such which pretty much hobbles the churches if they tried to return to the old beliefs and customs. And now that the culture war/political issues have changed, what now? This all at a time when the hospitals and colleges and residential orphan homes, etc (the old brick and mortar church missions) have almost disappeared, and the missionary sending agencies have reprogrammed themselves in various ways based on cultural changes here and abroad, and so on, so what do the churches have to fall back on? Most of what they had “before” is either gone or is disparaged.

    I do think that there are still some choices. My offspring opted for substance and went high-church protestant, and as I have said to everybody’s surprise all the children aged 12 and down absolutely love it precisely because it is substantive and liturgical. That works for us. No doubt there are other choices for other people, but what we had before in the baptist tradition, for example, looks to me to be gone for good. The world has changed, and some bad choices were made, and the former structure is gone, and I am thinking clamp off the IV and call the hospital chaplain and notify the family.


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    Nancy wrote:

    I am thinking that Bradley sounds like he judges people too harshly, sounds too ready to call some kid a lost kid, and exhibits perhaps a tone of schadenfreude since he apparently objected to the said politics and apparently approved of the evangelical big tent idea. But, I know next to nothing about the man and I may well have misjudged the situation based on too little information.

    ISTM that many conservatives HAVE lost their kids in the sense that these kids no longer share or have never in their adult lives shared said conservatives’ peculiar mix of Reaganism-influenced politics, culture-war attitude, celebrity-driven churchianity.

    What does not follow, however, ist that these kids are lost to faith in Christ, even if they identify as “nones”.

    What drove me away from evangelicalism in the eighties was the increasing identification with conservative politics (and I was completely pro-life then).

    (As regards my attitude towards abortion today – that is complicated. But then again, abortions will be an issue in very compliicated situations for most people, anyway.)


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    As the father of a ‘none’ I think it is primarily church culture that these younger ones have rejected–not Jesus. My observations and interactions with my son and his friends (most of whom grew up in perhaps what would best be called a hyper-church culture) is that they abhor hypocrasy and pretense. Rather than staying engaged with that culture and trying to reform it from within, they simply have sought a more relational structure (or non-structure) to work out their faith-issues.

    They strongly pushback against political conformity, and the church’s treatment of gays and women. They tend to be natural egalitarians and simply reject any explanation tha elevates male heirarchy, and cannot understand the refusal to relate and engage with those who would identify themselves as gay.

    The love I see expressed in this community of ‘nones’ often looks and sounds more like Jesus than what I have seen and experienced in the organized church structure that I have not only been a part of but have, at times, engaged from a leadership position. Its messy looking–


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    Nancy wrote:

    The world has changed, and some bad choices were made, and the former structure is gone, and I am thinking clamp off the IV and call the hospital chaplain and notify the family.

    This is my thinking, as well. And attempts at artificial support to extend things will, I think, only make things worse.


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    Cousin of Eutychus wrote:

    The love I see expressed in this community of ‘nones’ often looks and sounds more like Jesus than what I have seen and experienced in the organized church structure that I have not only been a part of but have, at times, engaged from a leadership position. Its messy looking–

    Great comment. Thank you.


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    mirele wrote:

    Go look on evangelical Protestant websites and see when womens’ meetings or Bible studies are held. Usually on some weekday, from 9:30 am to 11:00 am. I don’t know about you, but the moms I know are at work during that time of the day and they’re not taking time off work to go to a church meeting.

    Best comment of the week!


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    The love I see expressed in this community of ‘nones’ often looks and sounds more like Jesus than what I have seen and experienced in the organized church structure that I have not only been a part of but have, at times, engaged from a leadership position. Its messy looking–

    My thoughts on this: Thank God the religious institutions (contrary to what they seem to think) cannot control what Jesus does or to whom he may choose to engage…or how.

    On the basis of examining the fruit of people’s faith, well…my vote is with the ones that looks more like Jesus.


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    Gus wrote:

    ISTM that many conservatives HAVE lost their kids in the sense that these kids no longer share or have never in their adult lives shared said conservatives’ peculiar mix of Reaganism-influenced politics, culture-war attitude, celebrity-driven churchianity.
    What does not follow, however, ist that these kids are lost to faith in Christ, even if they identify as “nones”.

    This is exactly the point that we argued when we wrote The nones: are the faithful fleeing the church. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/03/12/the-nones-are-the-faithful-fleeing-the-church/


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    John wrote:

    , both I and the friend I mentioned are in our 50s, so it’s not just the younger generations that are affected.

    You would be called the “Dones.” I will try to write about this soon. You guys are in the norm and it is beginning to affect the income in churches which I think is wonderful. Money speaks and the “Dones” are not contributing.


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    Nancy wrote:

    My offspring opted for substance and went high-church protestant, and as I have said to everybody’s surprise all the children aged 12 and down absolutely love it precisely because it is substantive and liturgical.

    I am beginning to see this more and more. I believe the liturgical churches will begin to see a rise in attendance in the coming years.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    On the basis of examining the fruit of people’s faith, well…my vote is with the ones that looks more like Jesus

    I had a friend ask me for a recommendation for a church for her daughter. I told her to stay away from the megachurches Find a smaller church in which the pastor might get to know your name. Find a pastor that actually likes being with the folks instead of being behind the microphone and writing books and finding conferences that might let him speak.

    Find a church that care about the community and serves the poor on a consistent basis as opposed to a hoopla “Let’s serve our city today!” And stay away from churches that ask for huge sums of money in order to “do God’s work” while at the same time refusing to tell you what the pastor makes.


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      __

    “Kidz Are Say’in: ‘Whatz Dat Smell?’ ”

    ” And then if they go to many churches, the price of membership is profoundly steep for them (ed. Kids) : 10 percent off the top of their income. When you’re poor, that can make the difference between eating and heating or not eating and no heat.”  ~ Mirele

    Hey  mirele,

      Is not 10 percent off the top of these kid’s  income as New Testament tithing, a giving quota based upon a mis-representation of the New Testament facts?

    hmmm…

       If these proverbial 501(c)3 non-profit christian charlatan ‘pastors’ are mis-representing the New Testament scriptures concerning these young people’s  money, what else in the New Testament are they ‘mis-representing’ as well?

    🙁

    Perhaps, kids know a skunk when they ‘smell’ one.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu5hzc2Mei4

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy


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    @ Sopwith:

    One of the issues I noticed in my earlier days (baptist) was that it was held that tithing was one OT procedure that was carried forward to the church but that fasting was an OT procedure that was not carried forward to the church. Therefore one must tithe while at the same time one must not fast since the latter would be legalism while the former would not. So I thought about it, checked out exactly what is said in the NT about tithing and about fasting, and asked myself where they got the reasoning behind all that. I did not make me drop out of church, young or not, just saying that this makes no sense.


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    Nancy wrote:

    I did not

    It did not…


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    And while I am ranting about all this, is not King’s College the former employer of a man who was willing to break the law to help accomplish some political goal? Again, I know nothing about Dr. Bradley, but he may have fallen in with a way too radical situation, based on what little I have been able to google about King’s College.


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    @ dee:

    Thanks! I’ve lurked for some time, the Morris-Hodges-etc. article has pulled me in a bit because I’ve listened to Church of the Highlands for a while, and their association with Morris had already began to spur questions for me. I’ve spent a couple years in the Newspring Church circles with guys like Driscoll et al.

    I’ve grown a bit disillusioned with the money machines.


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    Nancy wrote:

    The world has changed, and some bad choices were made, and the former structure is gone, and I am thinking clamp off the IV and call the hospital chaplain and notify the family.

    And yet they (independents) will swear up and down that it’s the old liturgical churches that are dying and need to have the IV clamped off.


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    @ DH:
    Wow! The Arc, Perry Noble, etc. Bet you have some stories.


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    @ Bridget:
    That was quite a deal. Lifestyle conflict with his purported values.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    And yet they (independents) will swear up and down that it’s the old liturgical churches that are dying and need to have the IV clamped off.

    In their village maybe that is the case. But if you look at world wide statistics clearly the majority of people who call themselves christian are affiliated with churches which are old (they can quibble with each other about how old is old enough to be old) and churches which are liturgical. Half the christians in the world are catholic, and another 12% or so orthodox, and the rest of the pie chart includes some large numbers in older liturgical protestant churches (if one considers anglicans to be protestants.) So the rest have what, maybe a fourth or so of the pie chart, world wide, to fight over.

    But when one considers what does dying look like in a church, I see dying when people forsake sound doctrine and take up superstition and legalism and foolishness. It looks like dying when the professionals are professional mostly at entertainment and manipulation. And it looks like beyond hope when churches can look around at the world and not be able to find anything more beneficial to humanity to do than sit around in little groups and focus on themselves and each other.

    But that’s just me. Everything has its problems and its downside.


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    dee wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    That was quite a deal. Lifestyle conflict with his purported values.

    Just a wee bit. He did attempt to explain it all away . . .


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    I hate partisan politics. For me, political parties plus church is the same as uniting the temple with the money changers. Years ago I attended a megachurch that held voting drives in between services, and the pastor made it no secret how I should vote. Conservative Evangelicals were very much involved in the culture wars. It was over the teaching of evolution in public schools, or the homosexual agenda, or over radical feminism, or abortion, or some very offensive television show (believe it was Hillstreet Blues). Some of these issues people no longer care about the same way they did in the 90’s. Television is more sexually explicit with people of both sexes making out with no shame. Radical feminism– what is radical feminism? My wife works. Homosexuals: uncle Bert is gay. He is not involved in an agenda. I don’t believe present pew sitters are as repulsed by our sinful culture. Those that are may be more libertarian towards sinners. Some view that Christians can influence the culture, but the secular kingdom is viewed as never having been Christian. Some just go about their business trying to change hearts with their daily witness. I am more likely to pray for people, including our president, instead of telling people they are going to hell, which is something I have no authority to judge. God gave Obama his position and I should pray for my countries leader, so I believe.


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    Nancy wrote:

    But when one considers what does dying look like in a church,

    I heard about “dying churches” all the time in mega circles. Now, I look back and can see dead churches with 20,000 members branching out with satellite campi in the right zip codes.


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      __

    “No Yoke”

    Hey Nancy,

    glad U R bedder.

    hmmm…

    …ta put is succinctly, young folks R be’in fleeced, lied to, bamboozled, pied piper’d, brainwashed, N’ ______ (fill in da blank); all in da name of ‘jesus’. Now da church pedophiles pick um off at will, and no one sayz nuffin.

    And da kidz they haveta pay for it?

    No wonder they are saying, “No thanks!”.

    🙁

    Under this present dark ‘church’ circumstance(s), can anyone blame them?

    (bump)

    The only ‘free-will’ da enters dis ‘church’ picture for these young people, is mak’in 4 da door.

    —> His burden is easy, His ‘yoke’ is lite?

    $ure.

    Sopy
    __
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8kMK-M6wM


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    @ dee:
    My family are “dones”. We do not believe in the structure and outcome of the institutional church in America. Tell me where does the Bible state we are to have one man leading; a church pulpit or pews/chairs looking up at the pastor; tithing, etc….. huh? Nowhere. We are burned out, sermoned out, and tithed out.
    You will be seeing these churches start to use more desperate measures as people start leaving- its happening already.

    http://churchanarchist.com/


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    trust4himonly-Faith wrote:

    . We are burned out, sermoned out, and tithed out.

    I do not blame you for being done.You are in good company! Lots and lots of dedicated Christians are so done. The institutional church grows more desperate trying to raise money and prevent people from leaving their churches. That makes everyone run faster.


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    trust4himonly-Faith wrote:

    @ dee:
    My family are “dones”. We do not believe in the structure and outcome of the institutional church in America. Tell me where does the Bible state we are to have one man leading; a church pulpit or pews/chairs looking up at the pastor; tithing, etc….. huh? Nowhere. We are burned out, sermoned out, and tithed out.
    You will be seeing these churches start to use more desperate measures as people start leaving- its happening already.
    http://churchanarchist.com/

    Understand….I became a done shortly after seminary. Saw a massive change in my denomination while we were in Ft. Worth. Saw it for what it was, a power grab. So many good and decent people were literally thrown under the bus during that time….and the denomination still suffers from this so-called purge.
    Often I think I’d love to be in a liturgical leaning church, but in my part of the world, they are few and far between….and many are still influenced by evangelicals….


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    Nancy wrote:

    But when one considers what does dying look like in a church, I see dying when people forsake sound doctrine and take up superstition and legalism and foolishness. It looks like dying when the professionals are professional mostly at entertainment and manipulation. And it looks like beyond hope when churches can look around at the world and not be able to find anything more beneficial to humanity to do than sit around in little groups and focus on themselves and each other.
    But that’s just me.

    It’s not just you, Nancy. It’s me, and a lot of other people like us, who have had it up to the neck with the culture of the Celebrity Pastor (who is often really no pastor at all).


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    GSD wrote:

    And perhaps we haven’t lost the kids, but they’ve left us behind.

    Gives a whole new meaning to Left Behind, doesn’t it?


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    Our church offers ladies’ Bible studies–same course–at two different times. One is indeed mid morning on a midweek day. Not just retired old ladies there. It is what the younger moms with children who do stay home have asked for, and some of the working outside the home women who have days off midweek rather than weekend. It is also offered on a midweek night.

    Amazing how quickly we assume doing something a certain way is “wrong” if it conflicts with our own schedule or ways, without realizing it may be done to accommodate someone else!


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    @ linda:

    Where did anyone say that having mid-day, mid-week study group meetings was wrong? It seems obvious that the mid-day time accommodates the people who attend at that time. The observations that I saw (and made) were about that being the only option. Are people not allowed to ask why there isn’t an option available that would work for their schedule (or, in my case, for the working women I know)?


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    @ mirele:
    May I add a thought about the boomers? I think what you say in your post is generally true, but it is also true that the boomers and subsequent generation are often crassly materialistic, and this is why they are less interested in church where other values may challenge such consumerist covetousness.

    I would also add that compulsory tithing where this impoverishes the tither is a disgrace; these are the sort of people that any tithe should be going to help. The richer helping out the poorer. Christians really do need setting free from this doctrine about giving. In fact tithing is not about giving, it is more like the church levying a tax; and few people consider paying income or sales tax as charitable donation to the government!


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    Ken wrote:

    subsequent generation are often crassly materialistic, and this is why they are less interested in church where other values may challenge such consumerist covetousness.

    It was the Boomers who started the Jesus movement as a reaction to the crass materialism of their parents in the immediate post war boom.


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    linda wrote:

    Amazing how quickly we assume doing something a certain way is “wrong” if it conflicts with our own schedule or ways, without realizing it may be done to accommodate someone else!

    I do not think that is what was being said. There are some churches that do stick to women’s Bible studies during the day time but many churches are now accommodating those who work. I, on the other hand, did not like women’s Bible studies especially those that involved lots of rules about what you can say and not say or anything that involves lots of colored pencils and fill in the blanks. I despise fill in the blanks.

    What is it with women’s Bible studies and all the rules? I knew of one study at a church in which a mom (not me) could not get there until 15 minutes after it started due to scheduling conflicts with her child. The pastor’s wife told her that God must not want her in that study. She never considered the possibility that God wanted the pastor’s wife to loosen up!


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    @ Ken:
    Considering the fact that debt from student loans today is staggering, and that a lot of young people who are trying to pay off said loans are either underemployed or making next to nothing, i think your sweeping statements are probably more than a little off the mark.


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    @ dee:
    Was it just about “crass materialism,” though? I mean,the counterculture was only affordable for middle-class and upper-class white kids, and the reactions to social upheaval (very much including the draft and Vietnam) were much more sweeping than any one segment of the population… just saying. Black folks were working hard to gain full social and political acceptance at the same time that many white people were turning on, tuning in and dropping out.


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    @ dee:
    There was much else that was going on in terms of rejection of the country club-style churches that were typical of many upper middle-class communities atthe time, along with some prominent (mostly non-evangelical) white clergymen aligning themselves with the Civil Rights movement – itself a product of black evangelicalism.

    Remember the “God is dead” scuffle?


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    @ numo:

    @ numo:

    That is the way I remember it. The post VietNam tumult was about a lot of things. Wacked out little rich kids in their circus painted VW bus heading to California made a good picture for the press, but that did not begin to encompass the social upheaval of the day. So some of them were going to trash their lives in order to punish mommie and daddy because of differing economic values between the generations? Yeah, well kiddies, put down the weed and forsake the group sex and maybe your statement will seem more powerful to the general public. And BTW there were some serious social problems that needed addressed. It is not like people can’t interact with the culture in constructive ways. Sure, it is good that Chuck Smith found a way to scoop them up from where they landed, but they did not land there pursuing a noble cause, for the most part.

    And about the “crass materialism” of the boomers. It was precisely the older of the boomers who joined with whoever was left standing and functioning of the greatest generation, and us tweeners (the Korean War generation) who helped put this nation back on its feet economically after the wars. And if some ungrateful brats got spoiled in the process, well, that is truly a tragedy but nobody is perfect. And if a segment of the boomers were only to glad to ride the wagon and let others do the pushing, that is regrettable and despicable. None the less, that part of the parade needs to move on past.


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    @Dee – I’m with you on bible studies that don’t allow you to talk. And I too hate fill in the blanks. I feel like it belittles our intelligence. My all time least favorite thing, though, is alliteration in sermons. I attended a church where the pastor alliterated ALL of his sermons. He later got booted because he was plagarizing most of his sermons. Since that time, I can’t listen to an alliterated sermon.


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    @ dee:

    I don’t even understand the notion of “women’s” Bible study anymore and often wonder what was wrong with me that I found it acceptable in the first place. is there really a pink and blue Christianity?


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    Has Deb become a “none?” She certainly appeared to be heading in that direction.


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    @ Ken:

    Ken, I have seen crass materialism at church for the last 20 years. have you spent any time at an American megachurch? it is not just cars, clothes and beautiful homes but also lots of Botox and tummy tucks.


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    @ Lydia:

    I have not seen the resurgence of religious orders with vows of poverty in the people who want to talk about crass materialism. I think the idea is subject to over-hype. Just for fun I looked up what percentage of women have had breast augmentation surgery, for example–about 5%, according to one plastic surgery practice web site. I would have thought a lot more. Sure, few reject “the world” or see it exclusively as a mission field like Saul/Paul did, but there is nothing new about that. It is just hard for me to imagine somebody so upset that Dad drives a Jag and Mama is held together with surgical steel that they would make major life decisions based on that alone. Of course just across town we have a little university here packed out with rich kids who obviously are not rejecting materialism as a life style, so maybe that colors my perception of this. I don’t know but there just has to be more to the story than what’s in Dad’s portfolio.


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    @ Nancy:
    I think the Rockefeller Cousins are a great example of people born into wealth who rejected “crass materialism.” I met one of them once, without knowing who she was (until later, when the friend who introduced us told me – we had met in a public place and nobody could just blurt out that she was one of The Cousins right in front of her).

    You can read more about The Cousins here.


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    Dee wrote:

    Nancy wrote:

    My offspring opted for substance and went high-church protestant, and as I have said to everybody’s surprise all the children aged 12 and down absolutely love it precisely because it is substantive and liturgical.

    “I am beginning to see this more and more. I believe the liturgical churches will begin to see a rise in attendance in the coming years.”

    I have been leaning this direction for years, although for a variety of reasons I have not been able to act on it. I think my husband has realized I probably won’t remain Presbyterian the entire rest of my life. The real question for me is, where is my real spiritual home? Where will I actually experience communion with God, though He is not far from any of us? This is partially related to my current difficulties of being in church with my autistic son and hyperactive 4 year old. Not sure how they would respond to a high liturgical church. I do know that given the way the megas and their wannabes do worship, that would never work.

    And regarding women’s bible study, ours is ALWAYS Kay Arthur, all the time. Which means a ton of colored pencils, along with a willingness to mark up one’s Bible with them. I realized I was going more for the fellowship afterward, than the study itself. A weekday evening when the kids need help with homework and being shoved off to bed, leaves me with plenty on my plate as it is.


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    Seneca

    She often mentions her rural SBC church. 


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    @ Seneca "j" Griggs.:

    Interesting comment…Why would you think that?

    I am enjoying fellowship at a wonderful Southern Baptist church, which had steered clear of the issues we discuss here.

    Two Sundays ago a group of us enjoyed an outing after church to Petersburg VA to see White Christmas (a play), and last Saturday the association of churches that includes the one I attend held an event for needy families so they could buy Christmas presents for their children. I donated new toys along with many others, and parents of over 350 kids came to shop.  They paid 10 cents on the dollar of their own money.  It was a heartwarming experience.

    Love being involved with these wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ!


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    I am going to watch Rob Bells show on the Oprah network. Whether or not I agree with him, he seems nice and might have something edifying to say. He is kind of castigated as a heretic like a modern day Harry Emerson Fosdick. Even Fosdick had some truth to say.


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    Before I became a “none and done”. There were many women in the church not only doing Botox and “tummy tucks”. But expensive plastic surgery. Drivers of BMW, Cadullac, etc. I don’t have anything against ones personal preferences, but when I mentioned that when our circumstances excel , our lifestyles don’t need to, I was greeted with glazed stares. Am out of there.
    Finding a church that is real is hard.i am almost too tired to make the effort


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    NJ wrote:

    … And regarding women’s bible study, ours is ALWAYS Kay Arthur, all the time. Which means a ton of colored pencils, along with a willingness to mark up one’s Bible with them…

    Inductive study was like diagramming sentences in high school – fun for a while but it became tedious, then all one wanted to do was scribble rebellious doodles in the margins.


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    Deb wrote:

    @ Seneca “j” Griggs.:

    Interesting comment…Why would you think that?

    !

    I recall reading you might be holding on by the skin of your teeth – applying to the church you were attending.


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    @ senecagriggs yahoo:

    I don’t get that impression from Deb. No doubt anybody who wants quality SBC has to get out and search for it. And should get out and search for it rather than throw money at some church that they don’t approve of. But from listening to you I would guess that you and she might not end up at the exact same church, regardless of denomination. There is something to be said for options.


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    As I said earlier…There is no “litmus” of political positions that can make someone a Christian….

    But, where do we draw the line, or, HOW do we draw the line? For instance, if a politician was running on a platform that we should enslave minorities, should I not, as a Pastor, publicly preach against such heinousness? As you mentioned earlier Dee, you became a Christian and later moved pro-life. I would contend that abortion is the “slavery” issue of our modern era. While I have never preached a “political” sermon supporting, or, attacking, a candidate, I have preached on the importance of pro-life.

    One of our main ministries our church supports is a Women’s Resource center that has a primary focus on providing resources and training POST birth for young and unprepared parents. They do have a role in the pro-life movement in our area, but their main work is after the baby is born. Inevitably our support of this ministry can be construed as “political”. Do we pull our support/never talk about it because it might be a turn off to a visitor who is not pro-life?


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    One of the reasons I wanted to leave our previous church was because the pastor couldn’t help himself at times from getting into politics in the pulpit. I hung onto my sermon notes from the Sunday right after Obama’s reelection…it was a doozy. Everyone who had been part of this church for any length of time knew he voted right-wing third party as opposed to Republican, namely the Constitution party. I’m pretty sure he voted for Peroutka when he tried to run for President. I don’t think anybody in today’s Republican party is “pure” enough for him and some of the other prominent men in that congregation. They’d rather vote strictly on principle and lose every time than “compromise”, and will encourage the entire rest of the church to do likewise.

    Not long before we left, he did admit to everyone that after receiving some gentle criticism, he realized his preaching had become skewed by his political pessimism toward doom and gloom instead of the good news of the Gospel, and the hope we have in Christ. Hopefully the realization stuck with him.


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    For all those who commented on the boomers and materialism, some clarification.

    We can all only talk in generalities here, always a dangerous thing to do! I had in mind that section of the boomer generation who decided never to have children, 20% or so. Here in Germany, this is still reflected in the low birth rate, offset for years by importing families of ethnic Germans from eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. I’m sure a lot of the reason for this anti-family mentality was and is a desire for untrammeled material comfort, permanent double incomes, the hassle of bringing up children neatly avoided. Anyone with children knows they do indeed impinge on your personal autonomy and take their toll of your poor bank account!

    This seems to me to reflect an attitude born after the privations of WW2 had become history that life does indeed consist of the abundance of possessions. Of course this existed before and has always done up to an extent, but it is much more widespread now. It has even crept into the church in places in the form of the prosperity gospel. As for megachurches, aren’t they described to a T in the Loadicean church of Revelation 3? Far from vast numbers being a sign of God’s blessing, he is on the outside.

    In case I am misunderstood, I don’t think you can make marriage and family compulsory either, going to the opposite extreme, but it is if you like the ‘norm’ in the sense of entered into by the majority.


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    Ken wrote:

    I’m sure a lot of the reason for this anti-family mentality was and is a desire for untrammeled material comfort, permanent double incomes, the hassle of bringing up children neatly avoided. Anyone with children knows they do indeed impinge on your personal autonomy and take their toll of your poor bank account!

    I believe there are many reasons people don’t want to bring children into the world. ‘One’ reason might be selfishness. I think many people have endured pain untold paid in their lives and can’t imagine bringing a child unto this world who might experience the same. Fear of all kinds is another factor. Talk to any number of sexually/emotionally/physically abused people (which is a staggering portion of the population) and see how some of them feel about bringing children into this world. It’s not as simple as to say materialism/selfishness is the dominant reason.


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    @ Bridget:
    Ken and i have been around the block on this before. Needless to say, i think you hit much closer to the mark.


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    @ Bridget:
    Further, if all the people who are unfit to raise kids refrained from having them, the world would be a far better place.


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    @ Ken:

    Wait a minute here. The boomers were not born until after WWII. They did not go through the deprivations of the great depression or the war. Post war was difficult in Europe, but by the time the boomers were old enough to reproduce had not things improved? And 20% decided not to have kids? And the word boomer is from baby boom (where populations tend to rebuild themselves after significant numerical loss of whatever cause) and apparently that is what those who did go through the deprivations actually did. So I am wondering what else may be at play in this scenario also. Destruction of prior beliefs (like “uber alles”) and loss of vision for a future perhaps? What if you really don’t believer in the fatherland that much any more? This is just guessing of course, but it looks like a possibility. I certainly would not commit myself to much reproductive activity if I were wandering around feeling culturally disoriented with the constant cold war fears of the next big one. Or maybe the environment reached its carrying capacity and mercifully reproductive rate dropped off before more radical measures took hold? But no such thing as dropped birth rate happened adequately in certain Asian countries when population exceeded the ability to support that population.

    There is a similar but not quite that bad trend in the US, with some indication that were it not for the reproductive rate of recent immigrants the US would fall below the birth rate needed to sustain the population. This is not just centered on the affluent if I understand correctly. Nor is it a boomer issue now, since the boomers have aged out of their prime reproductive years, and yet births per female in the reproductive age range stays below what it used to be. So something is going on somehow. And we are way past remembering deprivations, which were nothing compared to Germany anyhow. I might add, marriage stats are way down over here, so it is not just birth rate. Interesting thing in the US, people who actually do have more than a very few kids are subject to much criticism. Hmmm. Interesting topic.

    Where did all the babies go?


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    @ Nancy:
    Costs of having + raising kids are SO much greater now.

    My mom’s total bill for a 5-day stay in a private room when she had me: 40.00 (yes, you read that right.) The privatisation of US healthcare that began in the 80s has had catastrophic consequences. And given that most families *need* to have two earners to make ends meet, i think the birth rste having dropped is very understandable.


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    @ Nancy:
    People are also marrying later, in part due to crushing debt from studrnt loand
    Many can’t afford to live on gheir own and are either unemployed or underemployed – a lot live with their parents for a while after college due to this. The trend has escalated since thenginancial crash of late 2008.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Talk to any number of sexually/emotionally/physically abused people (which is a staggering portion of the population) and see how some of them feel about bringing children into this world.

    Do you have any information if there is an actual increase in this or is it that we are more aware of it. If it has greatly increased, then we might be talking about an indicator of a possibly collapsing civilization. I hope not, but it would not be the first time in the world that ever happened.


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    @ numo:
    Financial crash.


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    @ numo:

    What you are saying sounds right. Certainly the popularity of home births with a nurse midwife has increased, and the popularity of home schooling and the “simpler” lifestyle movement and such. But I spent all those years in the health care industry, and the idea of women having kids and also working outside the home was just accepted. If women could not or would not do that then the schools and hospitals would have to shut down by nightfall (sort of) so two incomes can be solved for just a lot of people. It is not easy, but there are plenty options now to make it work–more than when I did it.


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    @ Nancy:
    But that was in health care. For middle-class women who didn’t work in that field, it was generally accepted that women should be at home, raising children. How we reconciled the obvious cognitive dissonance, I’m not quite sure.

    Of course, poorer women never had the luxury of a choice about working, then or now.


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    @ numo:
    Nurses, teachers and female doctors were the exception. Growing up where (and when) i did, there were almost zero in the final category. There was a local pediatrician who was a woman, but i think a lot of people thought she was an oddball, solely because she wasn’t content to accept nursing as her lot in life. She was a good doctor.


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    @ numo:

    Poor women have been almost obliged to work, sometimes even as domestic help. Women worked in my Dad’s law office back then. They used to call them legal secretaries before they became paralegals. My mother’s sisters all worked, though not necessarily full time or permanent. This town is swarming with women realtors and real estate agents. And have you seen who is working at the mall now? At the grocery stores? In the restaurants? No way is it all nurses and teachers. And no way are all these hoards of women childless by choice. I just happen to have close up exposure to some and not others. This thing about don’t work and stay home was, or so I read somewhere, a middle class status thing–look what a success I am I got my wife at home, and “no wife of mine is going to work.” It does not say anything about whether or not it can be done, only about whether it will be done and/or whether somebody thinks it should be done.

    The recent economy has been a problem. The church where I was until recently had a large half-day preschool program until last year when they had to close down. What happened? Some people put their kids in full time day care so they could go back to work and some just took them out because they could no longer afford it. Closed down the whole school which had been quite large. Lack of good jobs is a problem right now for sure, but the fall in birth rate has been notice for a long time before 2008. As early as 2001/2 when I was in RCIA the catechists were mentioning the disappearance of the “large catholic family” and this was before the current economic disaster.

    I think that all these factors probably play a part, but there also seems to be a decreased willingness to take the risks, endure the problems, settle for less, and make babies anyhow. Maybe people are correct to refrain from parenting. I am not arguing that. But the people who know about these things say that without the current masses of immigrants and their birth rate we would go under, just based on the math. If we have come to that place then it is an issue of concern for the nation.


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    @ numo:

    Of course, part of what I just said you already said while I was typing. Great minds?


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    numo wrote:

    The privatisation of US healthcare that began in the 80s has had catastrophic consequences.

    What was it before since it was “privatized” in the 80’s? Are you referring to it being mostly non profits?


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    Nancy wrote:

    This thing about don’t work and stay home was, or so I read somewhere, a middle class status thing–look what a success I am I got my wife at home, and “no wife of mine is going to work.”

    In his autobiography, Mel Blanc states during the Great Depression “it was a point of pride that your wife didn’t have to work.”

    I usually don’t go in for celebrity autobiographies, but Mel Blanc’s is pretty good. Same with Ricardo Montalban’s.


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    @ Lydia:
    It became an industry, run by private corporation. Many, many public hospitals either closed or were bought out by corporate gatekeepers.

    I saw it happening in D.C. and surrounding area, and the effect on poorer people was catastrophic. What had once been understood to be about public welfare and public service was turned into a very much for-profit business venture. That was a VERY bad thing, imo. And still is, to this day.


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    Excuse me, but as a fellow Saskatchewanian I believe Tommy Douglas was a Baptist and early on pastored a Baptist church in Weyburn. @ Sarah K:


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    @ Nancy:
    Yes, well… the “ideal” was Barbara Billingsley, of Leave it to Beaver, wearing pearls and perfect, unwrinkled dresses while doing household chores.

    Yet another example of impossible – entirely fictional! – standards being held up as the thing to which all middle-class women must aspire.


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    @ numo:

    Yep, that’s right. At one time there were huge public hospital systems and multitudes of smaller public hospital systems. Think Bellevue (NY) and Cook County (Chicago) and Charity (New Orleans)-lots of them. Patients were charged on a sliding scale based on income. These served as teaching hospitals also. This sort of thing was all over the place. I did med training in the old Louisville General which was one of these on a smaller basis. At the same time there were also private hospitals, many (probably most) run by religious orders or denominations. In Louisville at the same time there were several catholic hospitals, one presbyterian, one baptist, one jewish and one masonic. Some for-profits were also around.

    That book I referenced about the social transformation of american medicine covers the change from a knowledge based system (partly financed by local government money) to a money based system. The change has not been all bad, but it has been tragic for the poor in many aspects.


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    @ numo:

    Numo, My dad was on the board of a Catholic Hospital here, St Marys, back in the 50’s and 60’s. So I do get it. I think we use terminology differently, that is all.

    Nancy, It is interesting to think of my childhood and the hospital names such as Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Jewish and so on. I see the change you mention totally different and believe the slide started with the advent of HMO’s. but that is a topic for another day.

    ” At the same time there were also private hospitals, many (probably most) run by religious orders or denominations. In Louisville at the same time there were several catholic hospitals, one presbyterian, one baptist, one jewish and one masonic. Some for-profits were also around. ”

    That is what I was thinking of as “private” which is why Numo’s “privatization” threw me off a bit.


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    @ Lydia:

    Norton Infirmary was the presbyterian one. There was St. Anthony’s basically across the street from where I did nurses’ training at the old Ky. Baptist. There was Red Cross Hospital during the segregation days for African-Americans. I interned at St. Joseph’s Infirmary owned and managed by the Sisters of Charity of Nazareth. That was at the corner of Eastern Pkwy and Preston. That building has since been torn down, and I think they got out of the hospital business. Our Lady of Peace was a psychiatric hospital, and Kosair Children’s was pediatric orthopedics. Do you remember “Lakeland” the old Central State Hospital? I was on the staff there back when I though I wanted to be a psychiatrist. And of course, Children’s Hospital downtown right across from the old Louisville General. I was at LGH during med school and for the first two years of residency. All that was half a century ago, but I still miss it. We did right to move, and NC is a great place, but there is just something about the home of one’s youth and the place where one dreamed the dreams of youth.

    Should auld acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind……


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    @ Nancy:
    If you look at my post, I agree the boomers are post-WW2 privation. It’s the generation after that that started the trend in not wanting a family.

    I am sure there are many reasons for this. The whole permissive thing, the breakdown in the family, the unwillingness to make permanent commitments, the absence of fathers on a mass scale, now very much a part of UK life.

    Overall though I think materialism is the prime factor in this. The generation who have ‘never had it so good’ materially opting out in largish numbers from the responsibility of parenthood. The generation who have had the welfare state to guarantee their basic needs will be met. This is more than say my grandparents’ generation, who did not opt out of having families

    As to your question where have the babies gone, tragically the US and UK between them have ensured that some 57 million of them never made it as far as being born.


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    numo wrote:

    It [US healthcare] became an industry, run by private corporation. Many, many public hospitals either closed or were bought out by corporate gatekeepers.

    The same has happened to the social security system (roughly corresponding, I believe, to “welfare” in the US). A “welfare-to-work industry” has been created, in which the function of the former “Job Centres” has been outsourced to private companies process the cattle through a highly-automated and target-driven system.

    Many thousands of people – quite literally – have been forced to go cap-in-hand (figuratively) to food banks to avoid starvation whilst they have been “sanctioned” – that is, had their benefits stopped. In theory this is because they are refusing to look for work, but in practice it is an abusive punishment meted out arbitrarily or for spurious reasons so that the staff themselves can meet targets for numbers of people “sanctioned”. There are whole websites dedicated to publicising unfair and specious reasons for “sanctioning” benefit claimants. But since anger releases adrenalin which, in turn, stimulates glycolysis, and I’m already in the middle of a major change in my insulin-dose requirement, I’m not going to cite any examples now.


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    numo wrote:

    It became an industry, run by private corporation. Many, many public hospitals either closed or were bought out by corporate gatekeepers.
    I saw it happening in D.C. and surrounding area, and the effect on poorer people was catastrophic.

    What’s funny is usually when something like this happens, my mailbox and inbox gets spammed with HOT INVESTMENT TIPS junk mail about said industry — “MASSIVE RETURN ON INVESTMENT! GET IN NOW OR BE LEFT BEHIND FOREVER!” — and I didn’t get any on this one.


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    @ Nancy:
    A trip down memory lane. for some reason I have an image in my head of the nurses uniforms at the Baptist Hospital nursing school. I have vague memories of us going there to pick someone up. I was born in the old Baptist.

    St Joes is now site for University apartments.


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    Dee–I think you would love our women’s studies. First off, while we occasionally request a Kay Arthur (we ladies choose) or Beth Moore (ugh and double ugh!) we are just as likely to tackle election, free will or predestination, or any other topic. Comes out a quite a mix during the year. Currently some did a Beth M and some stuck to Hebrews.

    We offer two times on two different days. And invariably someone will complain about the day offering with “don’t we realize women work outside the home today?” And some will complain about the night offering that they are stay at home mom’s, with public schooled kids, and “doesn’t anyone care about not fracturing the family further with evening meetings?”

    We do what we think best, and realize we won’t get it all right, and that even if we could some folks just LIKE to criticize and complain within jumping in and doing the work.


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    Regarding the title, wasn’t one of the trademarks of the Soviet Union and their imitators/fanboys “Politicizing” everything? Political this, Political that, Political Political Political Political Political.


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    My husband and I are in our mid/late 60s. He recently became a Done with my blessing. Maybe I’ll join him someday. @ dee:


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    @ Kathy Hickey:
    Tell your husband that I don’t blame him. There is so much weirdness along with too many authoritarian crazies out there.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I’m not going to cite any examples now.

    Oh, please do, I reckon you’d do a great Russell Brand, Bulbeck. Go on, get your own YouTube channel, PLEASE. Also see the YouTube rants in series 1 of Treme if you need other inspiration. You know, what you describe in the UK (and in Australia), it’s the Poor Laws/Poor House – with metrics. We have been thoroughly conquered by managerialism and metrics…


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    Last time I was there they announced at the old people’s small group at the church where I have/had been a methodist for a few years that one of the little old ladies had announced that she was “so done” with it all and not coming back to church, and she did this as soon as her husband died–apparently been waiting a while for the opportunity. I had tended to think (erroneously) that by the time people got to be little old anything they just quit thinking and caring. Not so by a long shot, apparently.

    Given the sad (hopeless now?) condition at that church right now we are thinking that there seem to be a lot of “dones” dragging themselves to church regardless, and this is evidently a factor in the causes of the current condition of the situation.

    I went ahead and told them I had been worshipping elsewhere on Sundays. Hard thing to do. Sometimes, especially if you like the people, goodbyes are some kind of difficult.


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    Nancy wrote:

    Given the sad (hopeless now?) condition at that church right now we are thinking that there seem to be a lot of “dones” dragging themselves to church regardless…

    Although I obviously cannot speak for the condition of the particular congregation whereof you spake, I have often heard believers talk about their frustration and even near-despair at the condition of their local churches which they nevertheless keep attending out of a sense of duty. Behind this, I think there’s a basic truth: many groups calling themselves churches are actually powerless.

    This is one reason, I think, for the middle-class dominance of church memberships in the UK. The middle classes generally have jobs and stable lifestyles – otherwise they wouldn’t be middle class – and so they come to a meeting each Sunday with most of their needs already met. Thus, a little singing and praying (which can deeply move our emotions with a bit of practice) tops up the corners of their appetites, and gives them just that little extra sense of love and belonging, and that’s all they need.

    While ever we are kept warm, safe, fed and comfortable by secular technology, it’s easy to pretend that “our real security is in God”. But it may be very different if that theory is ever put to the test. If our job or our health is taken from us, what does our church membership provide then? We may find that it never actually provided us with anything – instead, we were propping it up. And it has no idea how to mourn with those who mourn.

    TWW often features telltale warning signs that a church is to be avoided. But consider the converse…

    Lots of churches like singing the Robin Mark song:

    As the deer pants for the water
    So my soul longs after you…

    … and there’s nothing wrong with that. But if you can find a church that knows how to sing the other parts of that Psalm:

    My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and meet with God? My tears have been my food day and night, while people say to me all day long, “Where is your God?” These things I remember as I pour out my soul…
    … I say to God my Rock, “Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?” My bones suffer mortal agony as my foes taunt me, saying to me all day long, “Where is your God”…

    then maybe that’s a church worth joining.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Some good thoughts there, Nick. One of the things that bible belt evangelicalism has done seems to be concentrate on doctrine and not much else. So when one no longer can tolerate the doctrinal shift there is not much left.

    I aligned with the methodists several years ago partly because they were saying prima scriptura and not sola scriptura, and I can live with that, and partly because they emphasized good works of all sorts as of value in themselves, and that meant that my life was not held suspect because my “good works” have all been elsewhere than the church. Besides, I like them and they are my kind of people. Then the local church basically fell apart.

    Meanwhile my kids became/are becoming fancy-church episcopalians, and I got to where I needed to go to church with somebody and not alone so I checked it out. At which point I realized how I missed the ideas of mystery and symbolism and congregational participation in liturgy and their music style (simplicity of presentation, discipline and quality) and the eucharist as well as the fact that all ages and races and such are sitting on the pew over there. And I like their approach to doctrine; they teach people so they will know what the traditional understandings have been and then say that they know various people have various ideas about various things so mostly we are just not going to discuss some contentious issues beyond this point. In other words, they scoot over on the pew and make room for people. And they are involved in community outreach with the homeless as well as other things. So, I like it. It will work. But there is nothing profound about what I have said here. I suppose one really ought to be profound but it escapes me. However, if they ever give medals for being pragmatic I will get one. So here we go, it seems, and the roller coaster has started up the first incline.