Wait. 1st?

If you look at the list of ARC members (pastors, not churches) you would guess that they deserve each other, and Driscoll would be a good fit. The question is, do the ordinary pew-sitters deserve these pastors?

The American Evangelical Entertainment Industrial Juggernaut is rolling, and nothing can stop it. Nothing?

  __

Put My Money Where ‘You’ Want It?

not a snowball’s chance…

Let da religious tyrannical farce be wit U?

hmmm…

Fat chance,

  Folks, Paul the Apostle did not subject the Gentile convert ta christianity to da Hebrew law, but the law of grace.

You see, Paul the Apostle, –was sent by Jesus Himself, –and as Paul converted the Gentiles to beeee believers in Christ, –he did not prescribe circumcision -trim’in their lit’l boyz wee-wee’s, or to keep the Law of Moses. 

Ouch!

On the contrary, the emphasis that Paul placed upon grace and faith combats this false required religious practice.

(rewind)

Didn’t Paul say that christians should watch out for ‘those’ who would come and teach ‘stuff ‘contrary to the teachings of the apostles? 

Yep, Certainly.

So as da Apostles never preached tithes, rather they stated that church giving must be free will offerin’s without any form of obligation, coercion, or twiddle dee [2 cor9:7]  –contrary to the fear bear-claw mongering compulsory tithing tactics thingy being utilized by these modern day 501(c)3 proverbial pastoral crookys, fleecing da flock, as it were.

Talk about duress?

(Pee in my shorts?)

—> It is quite evident from da scriptures dat tithing is contrary to the teachings of the apostles, this automatically qualifies it as a false christian teaching.

Nezzzzzpa?

So blow it outa your proverbial butt, ‘rigga-morris’©!

(grin)

hahahahahaha

dis lit’l lite O’mine…

hum, hum, hum…

Sõpy
__
Just because: Randy Crawford, Joe Sample – “Street Life”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJDFBOrwWBU

Bonus: David Sanborn and friends – “Put It Where You Want It?” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMfalO9ILUA

🙂

—

Sorry, should be Gwynne….

JeffT wrote:

I did a very quick look at these ‘pastors’ bios as posted on their websites and didn’t find one that had any type of seminary or other type of intense religious study. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that a seminary degree is no guarantee that one will preach any sort of Biblical Christianity (Steve Furtick being Exhibit A in that regard), I have yet to discover ANY untrained full-time ‘minister’ that even comes close to theologically sound preaching. Instead, with no more religious education as your average snake-handler, they find themselves free to make up their own ‘gospel’ to suit their own ends, not God’s.

Read an article about the lack of seminary training some of these guys ( and girls) have and why they are doing better than seminary trained ministers….there was no real answer other than these guys are better at marketing and many of these folks HAVE a marketing background….

K.D. wrote:

Read an article about the lack of seminary training some of these guys ( and girls) have and why they are doing better than seminary trained ministers….there was no real answer other than these guys are better at marketing and many of these folks HAVE a marketing background….

Marketing as in Used Cars or Boiler Rooms?

A helpful start to looking deeper, Deb — thanks for your work on this. Your summary intro to this post stated: Churches belonging to ARC are some of the fastest growing in the country. Can they maintain their momentum as more details about ARC come to light?

As I suggested in the lengthy comment Dee posted for me on the last thread about ARC, quantitative measurements of “growth” are a problem. They rarely indicate much of anything about the quality of ministry going on, or the relative integrity or disintegrity of the organizational systems in place.

For instance, for what it’s worth, here’s a fascinating throwback quote from a September 20, 2012, press release about a church that was then very fast growing. (Boldface emphasis added.)

“We are pleased to welcome Mars Hill Church as ECFA’s 1,700th member,” said Dan Busby, ECFA president. “By meeting the stringent criteria ECFA applies to all applicants, this certifies to supporters of the church and the public that Mars Hill meets the highest standards of financial ethics, faithfulness and accountability.”

“At Mars Hill, we are dedicated to utilizing the resources entrusted to us in faithful adherence to our mission to make disciples and plant churches in the name of Jesus,” said Pastor Mark Driscoll. “In proactively submitting ourselves to the scrutiny of ECFA, we openly state our commitment to proclaim Jesus to our communities with utmost ethical honor.”

Driscoll, founding pastor of Mars Hill Church (www.marshill.com), is one of the world’s most quoted and downloaded pastors. He was named among the “25 Most Influential Pastors of the Past 25 Years” by Preaching Magazine. Founded in Seattle, Mars Hill is the third fastest-growing and 28th largest church in the United States. It is composed of 14 smaller congregations that meet in four states, each led by elders and deacons and dedicated to serving Jesus and people in the context of their local community.

http://www.ecfa.org/Content/Mars-Hill-Church-Most-Recently-Accredited-Church

So — we’re seeing how the denoucement of that drama of a high-profile, fast-growing church is playing out. Clearly, the “stringent criteria” don’t seem particularly meaningful or indicative of sustainable momentum, if such a stalwart non-profit as this one can sink to the point of bankruptcy in just two years after the stellar evaluation by the ECFA.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

K.D. wrote:
Read an article about the lack of seminary training some of these guys ( and girls) have and why they are doing better than seminary trained ministers….there was no real answer other than these guys are better at marketing and many of these folks HAVE a marketing background….
Marketing as in Used Cars or Boiler Rooms?

Headless,
Have two former students with BBA degrees in marketing selling used cars….both making a mint….so yes….

A little anecdote about Champions Centre (which is Not in Seattle) long before they changed the name. I believe one reason for the name is that their softball teams had been perpetual Church League champions– even national champs at one point. My church team played them once. We noticed they had at least one “ringer” of the 6’4″ 225lb variety who was known to attend elsewhere. We were reminded of Numbers 13:33, “‘We even saw giants there, the descendants of Anak. Next to them we felt like grasshoppers, and that’s what they thought, too!”‘
Later their pastor decreed a “stately pleasure dome” in imitation of the Tacoma Dome, which imitated the King Dome, which Was in Seattle.

Oh, it looks like Dino Rizzo got his start working underneath Jimmy Swaggart. A lot becomes clearer in this moment.

(link to Charisma article, prior to Rizzo’s fall): http://www.charismanews.com/us/33805-louisiana-pastor-changing-lives-with-servolution

Gram3 wrote:

mirele wrote:
Jesus didn’t call a bunch of MBAs to follow him. I seem to recall they were guys who fished for a living and a hated tax collector. Something is wrong here.
It is interesting to me that Jesus called men who were neither formally educated nor socially well-respected nor desirous of being respected. They weren’t formally trained theologically or in any other way that is revealed. Paul would be the exception. The 12 were from Galilee, of all places, and not from Jerusalem. I think Jesus chose men of lowly stature so that he could lift them up and the credit would go solely to God for their successful ministries.
They understood the real world and they are great examples of struggles that we all have. These other guys have manufactured a fantasy world for themselves and also for their followers who identify with the fantastic men and their fantastic vision rather than identifying with Christ and his vision and mission.
So, maybe we should go back to Paul’s model of not making a living from ministry.

I have called for a non-paid ministry for years.
These guys becoming richer than the people in the pews and then saying ” God wants it this way” is a bunch of bunk.
As I have said, I left a church staff when I felt it was wrong, just wrong to accept a paycheck from folks who were struggling to buy groceries, yet, the rest of the staff saw nothing wrong with that once a quarter tithing sermon, and many believed that 10% was minimum….

It’s pretty simple. If a grown man will stand in front of people and lie to them like Robert Morris, telling them that they might become demon-possessed if they don’t tithe 10% to his church, how can you EVER trust anything he says – EVER? Same with Driscoll: when I saw the video of him telling people that he has visions of his church members sexual sins – I knew he was a fraud and a liar. I would never trust anything he ever says.

It would seem the body of Christ here in North America is being oppressed with an axis of heresy embodied in ARC-ECFA-TBN, and exacerbated with the YRR movement. Some are sincere but misguided believers, some are wolves. The name of the game; expansionism, personal wealth-building on the backs of God’s people, and POWER. He who dies with the biggest ecclesiastical/business empire wins.

K.D. wrote:

As I have said, I left a church staff when I felt it was wrong, just wrong to accept a paycheck from folks who were struggling to buy groceries, yet, the rest of the staff saw nothing wrong with that once a quarter tithing sermon, and many believed that 10% was minimum….

Many years ago, I attended a church and don’t remember anything the pastor said in any of his sermons, but do remember what he said about the building fund. He said a newly wed couple told him they were saving money to buy some furnishings for their home. The couple decided to forego the furnishings and give the money they saved to the building fund. The pastor stood in the pulpit nodded his head up and down in approval and used this couple as an example of sacrificial giving and giving until it hurt. Some people actually left the church because of this example. I was tuned out a long time ago, gave nothing and eventually left the church, too.

Deb wrote:

brad/futuristguy wrote:
A helpful start to looking deeper, Deb — thanks for your work on this.
Thanks. These guys have been flying under the radar screen for quite a while now. I kept seeing their names but didn’t think anything of it. It’s kinda like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. I thought much of this was unrelated, but low and behold, the individual pieces begin to interlock.

I didn’t know about these connections either, but it’s not surprising. Many pastors in the U.S. are more concerned with teaming up with other pastors than with being a functional part of their own fellowships. There’s an elitism there that appeals to the worst of our nature. When I was an elder I never felt comfortable with these citywide leaders-only meetings, and never attended even on those occasions where they stooped below the pastor level to issue invitations–just a collection of egos bouncing off one another.

It’s not much different from academia, where the real academic communities aren’t so much what you’d see if you drove by the campus; in fact, you can almost be sure that in all but the smallest liberal arts schools, profs are closer to and share more camaraderie with scholars from other universities hundreds or thousands of miles away who share their discipline than they are to a prof in another discipline in the building 50 feet away.

The average pastor of a mega likely feels alienated from the congregants, perhaps even considers them inferior, and looks forward to those special meetings of elites where they can discuss the important stuff and share tactics for how they’ll move the pawns around on the chessboard. The worst experience I ever had was trying to co-organize a Christian event when several pastors from area churches were invited to a planning meeting. It turned into a titanic fight, even my own pastor, who seemed like a decent fellow at home in church, was a pompous @$$, he started off his talk at the pastor’s meeting with a discussion on why our church qualified for “mega” status, he was different person who I very much didn’t like.

This stuff is evil, Jesus warned us about it.

__

God does not need our money, He wants us to believe in His Son Jesus.

‘cheerful giving’ comes much much latter…

🙂

—

@ Gram3

__

Fear not, he now has Mark Driscoll ta ‘help’ um.

🙂

—

Sopwith wrote:

@ Gram3
__
Fear not, he now has Mark Driscoll ta ‘help’ um.

–

He sure does . . . They’ll make a nice scam outfit if they team up — unfortunate as that may be.

roebuck wrote:

What is wrong with people? I have tried to understand, but I simply can’t.

I feel your confusion. The only thing I can come up with (Nick’s rule) is that people want a chief or a king. It is a tribal affiliation thing. People come to identify with the Big Man so giving stuff to him accrues to their self-esteem because they *are* him in a sick sort of way.

It is tragic that this occurs in the church, but I think that it is a human impulse to want to be significant, and all of us realize when we take a good look at ourselves that we are pretty insignificant in the overall flow of history. But if we can be part of an important movement or be associated with an important person, then somehow that gives meaning and significance to us. If only we can gain the approval of the Big Man, then we must be big, too! If we lose his approval, we must be nothing.

I wish that these folks and the others who are followers of movements would identify with Christ instead of the christianoids and gospelbots that we talk about here. They would find true significance as fellow-heirs with him.

Law Prof wrote:

Deb wrote:
brad/futuristguy wrote:
A helpful start to looking deeper, Deb — thanks for your work on this.
Thanks. These guys have been flying under the radar screen for quite a while now. I kept seeing their names but didn’t think anything of it. It’s kinda like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. I thought much of this was unrelated, but low and behold, the individual pieces begin to interlock.
I didn’t know about these connections either, but it’s not surprising. Many pastors in the U.S. are more concerned with teaming up with other pastors than with being a functional part of their own fellowships. There’s an elitism there that appeals to the worst of our nature. When I was an elder I never felt comfortable with these citywide leaders-only meetings, and never attended even on those occasions where they stooped below the pastor level to issue invitations–just a collection of egos bouncing off one another.
It’s not much different from academia, where the real academic communities aren’t so much what you’d see if you drove by the campus; in fact, you can almost be sure that in all but the smallest liberal arts schools, profs are closer to and share more camaraderie with scholars from other universities hundreds or thousands of miles away who share their discipline than they are to a prof in another discipline in the building 50 feet away.
The average pastor of a mega likely feels alienated from the congregants, perhaps even considers them inferior, and looks forward to those special meetings of elites where they can discuss the important stuff and share tactics for how they’ll move the pawns around on the chessboard. The worst experience I ever had was trying to co-organize a Christian event when several pastors from area churches were invited to a planning meeting. It turned into a titanic fight, even my own pastor, who seemed like a decent fellow at home in church, was a pompous @$$, he started off his talk at the pastor’s meeting with a discussion on why our church qualified for “mega” status, he was different person who I very much didn’t like.
This stuff is evil, Jesus warned us about it.

Even in huge high schools like I taught at in Ft Worth and Houston, I was closer to other history/government teachers in other large schools. I saw them at academic conferences, academic contests, even writing curriculum and spoke to them more than people in science or math at my school, even though the science wing was around the corner from my classroom in one occasion.
Concerning looking down on parishioners. If you only knew how your pastor, church staff talked about you behind closed doors. It is not positive…..especially if you are not one of the big contributors….give money, and you get special treatment. Mrs. Jones living on Social Security? I doubt you get taken to lunch by the pastor or church staff…but you look forward to getting a plate of brownies from Mrs. Jones…and they sort of expect it….
( BTW- it’s not all church staff or preachers, but I’ve seen it, and this attitude is there more than you realize.)

  __

Hey,  Gram3
__

‘Gospelbots’ R’ good lit’l ‘pastoroid’ ATM’s ?

🙂

—

Law Prof wrote:

pressed down and overflowing

Great Biblical allusion 🙂 In fact, that’s my touchstone as to how I do business.

I know what you’re saying. People support all kinds of things that are against their own best interests, seeming to believe that ‘wealth’ and ‘success’ will somehow rub off onto them.

Seems like rank superstition to me, rather than faith in Christ…

Sure, I have scorn for these “pastors”. But let’s not lose sight of one important thing – the very vast majority of the people in these churches want that kind of church and pastor.
Witwer: The power’s never been with the oracle. The power’s always been with the priests, even if they had to invent the oracle.
Jad: The way we work, changing destiny and all, we’re more like clergy than cops.
Witwer: If there’s a flaw, it’s human. It always is.

– Minority Report

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

But let’s not lose sight of one important thing – the very vast majority of the people in these churches want that kind of church and pastor.

I guess that’s kind of my point. I wonder what they think the connection to Christ might be in all of that…

  __

Moral of dis wack’d ‘moronic’ 501(c)3 religious story? 

—> Do what you’re told or you’ll be Oh! press’d  N’ shaken down as well?

What da ‘threat’?

whatz next?

hmmm…

Dis ain’t Kansas, Dorothy…

🙁

—

  __

 I’m waiting for George Lopez ta come out and tell us one of those Taco Bell E’coli jokes.

🙂

—

Kindakrunchy wrote:

A note on Chris Hodges’s Church of the Highlands, I had a friend go to a retreat there one weekend. It was the culmination of a semester long Bible study about finding your all in Christ.

All weekend long, the leasership kept telling everyone that they needed to stay the entire weekend to make sure that they received all that The Lord had for them. They wouldn’t receive all that God had for them unless they stayed till the very end.

There would be this special first of honor coming hat would help them receive all God had for them. Literally all weekend the leadership promoted this special guest who would help them.

The special guest was Chris Hodges.

Apparently everyone was in raptures that he would attend this event himself.

Sorry. It’s my bedtime. Special guest of honor that would help them.

Hmm…I don’t necessarily disagree with the suggestions that some people stick with these churches because of a desire for a king or for the prosperity to rub off. But I would like to present another side to it.

As I have mentioned before, I was raised Assemblies of God, which is not so much like what this article is about. However, within that framework, I was raised in a home that was into the Word of Faith before it even had a name. Kenneth Hagin – Kenneth Copeland – Oral Roberts…these were revered in my home along with the added mix of Hal Lindsey and company with TBN added when it came on the seen in my late teens and Jack Chick tracts on the coffee table in abundance (I still feel a shudder of fear when I even see a Chick Tract).

Now, if you have been raised in this stuff with a parent who enjoys instilling fear just for the sake of seeing you squirm…well…okay, if it is instilled in you from tiny that God will be ‘displeased’ if you don’t do xyz (and yes, tithing was apart of that, my introduction to tithing was pretty emotionally devastating at the age of 8), it is not so easy to just shake it off and walk away. It took a pretty egregious action on the part of my pastor to jar me loose from the dysfunction. (Sorry for the convoluted sentence….)

I have been out of that church for almost 8 years. I have not spoken to my mother in 6 years. And I still fight that fear of being in trouble for not ‘doing it right.’ And at this stage of things, I am well aware, intellectually, that fear is not how God talks to his children and that he is not waiting to strike me down for an infraction. I do understand. But the irrational fear is very deeply ingrained and I still struggle with. I may always do so.

All that to say that I know that a lot of the reason people stay in churches like this, even when faced with evidence of their pastor’s trickery, is just plain fear. And yes, it is most definitely superstition. But when you are caught in the middle of it, you do not see it. You are just afraid. One couple I know who still go there have stated that they know that the leadership is wrong and that it is all bad, but they are afraid if they leave, their marriage will fall apart and they’ll get divorced; not because they are having marital problems, but because this pastor has taught that one of the dangers of leaving the (his) church is that your marriage will fail. So. They stay out of fear.

@ Sopwith:
Come on, Sopy, B. cereus!
😉

  __

“Safe Ejection?”

Hey, Jeannette Altes

hmmm…

“There is no shame in ‘ejecting out’ to save one’s life from spiritual abuse.” ~ Sopwith

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6pJd12Dhi0

You have a ‘wingman’ (Jesus), please turn on your rescue beeper.

(He will find you)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKzK-5yjt44

Praying.

ATB

Sopy

—

@ Jeannette Altes:

I’m so sorry that a little child was caused to fear God, the church, and her mother. No child should have to feel fear where there should be love, and no child should have God’s love obscured by others’ sin. People who want others to do something may use fear because, as Nancy said, it works as a motivator. The fear response is instinctive, and tragically the trauma from those experiences lasts, personally and relationally. May the sure knowledge of God’s love for you heal the pain others inflicted on you in his name.

Oh my gosh. I just watched the tithing video. Here is my arrogant experience: For years I provided a meal every month for the local homeless shelter (which my church never supported, either financially or with labor). I could no longer afford to do this, partially because my tithe ate up my reserve income (and paid the pastor’s three figure salary, retirement and generous benefits package). When I was removed from this church via “biblical” church discipline, I was able to joyfully resume preparing and serving meals there, connecting with these people I have grown to love. This so-called pastor is a lying accuser of the brethren. He makes me sick.

Warren Throckmorton is reporting this morning that his sources are telling him that Robert Morris (you know, Mr. If You Don’t Pay A Full 10% Tithe You Will Be Cursed and bigwig in the ARC) has offered assistance to *Mark Driscoll* to set up a church plant in Southern California. Or Texas, if SoCal doesn’t work out.

So I guess ARC monies may be flowing Driscoll’s way? Inquiring minds want to know.

mirele wrote:

Warren Throckmorton is reporting this morning that his sources are telling him that Robert Morris (you know, Mr. If You Don’t Pay A Full 10% Tithe You Will Be Cursed and bigwig in the ARC) has offered assistance to *Mark Driscoll* to set up a church plant in Southern California. Or Texas, if SoCal doesn’t work out.

Make it Texas. He’d fit right into the GCB Mega whirl.

Because I don’t want that SOB anywhere near my part of the country.

Gram3 wrote:

It took my brain awhile to recover from the shock, shock that he is not going away.

I’m not shocked – merely disgusted. The man has no shame. You’d think he’d want to disappear for a while, maybe think about what he’s done, what has happened. But he seems to be utterly clueless. Has he no friends to counsel him? And I don’t mean Morris, who is an obvious grifter.

And I left this part out….oil money, oil money, oil money…however if it stays below $80 a barrel, which I doubt, won’t be as plentiful as it is above $100…

roebuck wrote:

Has he no friends to counsel him?

He has become Kryptonite to his friends, the Super Men. Grudem and some of the usual suspects were at MHC a few months ago when things were great. But that was a long, long time ago, and they knew nothing, nothing so he will hear nothing, nothing from them and neither will anyone else hear anything about Driscoll.

@ Gram3:

So sad! He seems like a lost little boy sometimes. It seems to me like he really needs to do some serious work on himself, not jump into a new ministry.

@ Gram3 and Nick,

To add: It seems to me that he still doesn’t think he did anything wrong, that HE is the wronged party. He is acting like a teenager.

Churches belonging to ARC are some of the fastest growing in the country. Can they maintain their momentum as more details about ARC come to light?

Little problem with maintaining “fastest growing” indefinitely. It’s called “the sigmoid curve” and you find it in all natural systems. Such as new life colonizing an empty ecological niche. Or real estate values during the big bubble.

When something starts in such a virgin field, it grows exponentially — i.e. faster and faster, the more it grows the faster it grows — to the point it seems such constant acceleration will go on FOREVER. (i.e. The Singularity(TM), faster and faster and faster until rate of growth becomes infinite.)

But then it approaches the limit of its niche’s carrying capacity, and growth (IMPOSSIBLY!) starts to slow. Until it reaches the upper limit of it’s niche and plateaus and/or stagnates at that limit. Final result: the Sigmoid (“S-Shaped”) curve.

Gram3 wrote:

The older men in the Gospel Glitterati, who should have been wiser, failed him and the church miserably by enabling his behavior and feeding him toxic doctrines which only made the spiritual and emotional destruction worse for everyone.

This is so true. It does seem as though they used him for the youth relevance thing, and when he got into trouble, dropped him like a hot potato.

@ roebuck:

I have said for years these guys have to have a stage. They will find one somewhere.

roebuck wrote:

This is so true. It does seem as though they used him for the youth relevance thing, and when he got into trouble, dropped him like a hot potato.

He Has Outlived His Usefulness.

@ Sopwith:

Sopy, thank you for you prayer and yes, me rescue beeper is on…

@ Gram3:
Gram3, thank you. Learning what love means is probably on of the most challenging things I am doing. I know it does not mean what I was taught growing up. But, based on what was taught, it is still very difficult to trust this thing called love. It is a day by day learning process with many challenges.

@ Muff Potter:
Hmm… right now, I think that in the case of my former pastor, the use of fear to control is born out of his own fear of not being in control. I have watched him stop a move of God in the midst of a service. I believe it was because he was afraid that if he did not control what was said, he might be exposed. Sadly, I think many of them, the longer they play the role of the keeper of God’s Truth, the more they actually believe they are the keeper of God’s truth. Others, I think, are just plain old fashioned hucksters that have found a market to exploit. It’s hard, sometimes, to tell which is which, but in the end, the results for the pew-sitters is about the same.

am wondering if somehow people with guilt in their lives get relief from being fleeced by these scoundrels, er …’preachers’.

there has to be some deep-seated need in folks to gravitate towards this kind of mindless nonsense

people seek the leadership they think they deserve: an example, men who needed ‘power’ and ‘control’ over their wives head over to the SBC’s fundamentalist churches and the cult of patriarchy;
another example: people with a deep-seated ‘need’ to physically punish someone who offends them will gravitate to those churches which serve up doctrines from Dobson and Pearl, complete with ‘switches’ and how to spank infants and toddlers ‘to break their spirits’ . . .

so I must think that there is a group out there that needs to be fleeced . . . is it a form of ‘guilt-release’?
I have no clue. But it is not a healthy need. And those ‘pastors’ who feed off of it cannot presently be conformed to the Mind of Christ. God have mercy on all who are vulnerable in this world. Thank God for TWW and groups that tell the truth about the abuse going on.

Thanks, Christiane. Very wise comments. And thanks to TWW for their insight.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Hmm…actually it is more a matter of being taught that if you get outside of obeying what God is telling you through ‘the man of god,’ you will be cursed. It is more a teaching that these are the laws God has set up and if you break them, you are cursed.

Thing is, where does “imprecatory prayer” end and putting a hex on someone begin?

K.D. wrote:

Read an article about the lack of seminary training some of these guys ( and girls) have and why they are doing better than seminary trained ministers….there was no real answer other than these guys are better at marketing and many of these folks HAVE a marketing background….

I’ve never understood the church growth movement’s mentality.

We follow a Savior who said that the way is narrow and that few will make it into the kingdom. Why, then, would any pastor seek out huge numbers and glorify ramped up statistics?

I have not been able to find out what the Ezzo system says about older children and teens, but I have found some of what they emphasize about infants and toddlers. Some of it has a somewhat familiar ring. I was born and raised before Dr. Spock. Actually his Baby and Child Care book came out when I was 12, but it was controversial at the time. So babies tended to be fed on a schedule and expected to have a sleep/awake schedule and they were left to “cry it out” at night if necessary. As late as the early 50s when I was in nurses training the whole schedule thing was still in fashion. And spanking, of course, with the father as the ultimate enforcer was just assumed. “Don’t anybody think that a man’s belt is just for holding up his pants” was a motto of sorts. I never saw a baby carried around by anybody in anything like a “sling” until I went to Africa. There certainly was no such thing as children’s church or even a nursery for the babies during worship services. After a certain age if you so much as breathed (it seemed) in church you got dragged out of the service, soundly spanked, and brought back in to sit immobile through the rest of the service. And “children should be seen and not heard” of course. If you did not eat everything on your plate at supper, there it would be at breakfast and for how ever long it took for you to choke it down. (I hated beets, but I ate them, you betcha.) The list goes on…

So, were we all terminally traumatized? Obviously not. Were some children damaged? Probably so. Did I raise my children that way? Not a chance.

GSD wrote:

Guilt-release! What a perfect term. We have a local church plant that is planning to start a 30 minute Sunday service for busy people. All of the guilt release in a fraction of the time!

JMJ over at Christian Monist wrote a lot about Guilt Manipulation and how common it is in church situations.

Nancy wrote:

(I hated beets, but I ate them, you betcha.)

You too! If one dared to whine about what was being offered in my household, my mom had a saying: “If you don’t like what we’re having for dinner, there’s always Howard Johnson’s”. When you’re 6 years old, that’s when you shut up and eat yer beets…

I still don’t care much for beets…

“It is more a teaching that these are the laws God has set up and if you break them, you are cursed.”

Sounds similar to what Bill Gothard taught, although I think he called them “principles”.

Incidentally, yesterday the Aquila Report linked to one of Throckmorton’s posts with the infamous memo by Sutton Turner discussing why they needed to increase Driscoll’s salary to $650k. I had forgotten that in that memo, Turner mentions having worked with churches in the ARC. One of the things they’ve been doing are conducting compensation studies of each other, for the purpose of determining their pastors’ salaries. You know, how much can we pay our guy so he’ll actually stay put and won’t leave us for the conference/guest pastor circuit?

If I were any good at posting links, I think I’d find that muppet video of Dr. Teeth singing the money song, or maybe Weird Al doing It’s All About The Benjamins.

HUG,

Aw, you guys missed out. Most beets in the grocery store I won’t even look twice at, but I grew up with a large garden that included fresh beets, just picked that day. It’s like the difference between the standard frozen peas, and those you picked, shelled, and immediately cooked yourself. No comparison.

NJ wrote:

just picked that day

I can believe that. Fresh picked corn is a whole different thing from anything you buy in the store. So let me say, I have a small red raspberry patch and I make freezer jam. I wait until there are enough raspberries on the canes to make a whole batch (this naturally means that some have gone to waste while waiting) and then pick early in the morning and make the jam within a couple of hours to protect the sugars and the flavor. Nothing in the store that is sold as raspberry jam is remotely the same product.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Thing is, where does “imprecatory prayer” end and putting a hex on someone begin?

I know of one international Christian lassie who actually teaches on (or rather, warns against) what she calls “witchcraft prayers”, namely prayers where I seek my will for another person. She’s not quite literally calling it witchcraft, but as she points out, attempting to use spiritual means to gain some measure of control over another person is the essence of dark occultism.

K.D. wrote:

Now I am fairly big capitalist

I, by contrast, am a fairly trim social entrepreneur.

(Keeping fit is a particularly good idea for Type 1 diabetics.)

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

She’s not quite literally calling it witchcraft, but as she points out, attempting to use spiritual means to gain some measure of control over another person is the essence of dark occultism.

The classic definition of the difference between Religion and Magick:

In religion, the cosmic powers/supernatural beings have the final say.

In Magick, the mortal sorcerer is in control, forcing his will upon the supernatural forces/beings.

It’s the difference between “Thy Will be done” and “MY Will be Done”.

KJM wrote:

My ex boyfriend goes to Champions Centre (Kevin Gerald). After attending a few times and hearing about it from my ex, I can say that they definitely teach their members to tithe – that God will bless them if they do. I know they also have community groups where the members get together to read books written by Gerald

pastor Kevin is big on “culture”. One of his books is “By Design or Default?: Creating a Church Culture that Works”.
You create the “culture” that “champions” the message you want to bring. Create the right culture and it will “work”. Build it and they will come.
But as for me- I don’t think about “culture” that much. Simon and Garfunkle may have had me in mind when they said, “The man ain’t got no culture!”
But I—- I remember when. Back when Pastor Kevin was a kid and ATM’s were brand new and ate your card. I remember when they had a prophets conference at what’s now Champions Centre. Most of the prophets said something like “Go, and prosper! For the LORD will deliver it into the hand of the king!”
But one annoying prophet brought cultural disorientation and offered a cultural choice:
    “I cannot imagine a more appropriate night for this message.  What I have visibly seen of your church life is probably as grand of a religion as can be experienced in our world.  I am not sure that it can reach a greater pitch or peak than what has taken place tonight-the glory of the music, the worship, and the spirit of cordiality that prevails in the sanctuary.  This has surely got to be the pinnacle, the ultimate in things that have to do with life in the service of God.  But, how would you like to let it fall into the ground and die?
     Tonight, I am going to paint a picture that so contrasts the euphoria you have just experienced in the service so far.  It may well bring you cultural disorientation.  In fact, you are going to have to make a rugged choice.  Which of these two cultures will you choose?  You will have to choose either what you presently know, in all of its glory, or you will have to choose apostolic splendor-fresh out of the book of Acts—in all of its magnitude, grisly sweat, suffering, blood, vexation, distress, and calamity.”

@ Nancy:

Actually, nowadays it’s a lot easier than it used to be. I was diagnosed in my 40’s, for instance, rather than as a bairn. And a cousin of mine, who is about my age and has been diabetic just about all his life, had one insulin injection a day and could only do a urine sugar test (controlling sugar in your urine is rather shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted). He couldn’t eat anything with sugar in it. Whereas I can test my blood sugar, fairly accurately, at any time; plus, I have ready access to a faster-acting form of insulin which I can take with meals. So, apart from scoofing a lot more jelly-babies when on 15-hour walks in the Highlands, being diabetic has had very little effect on my lifestyle.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

K.D. wrote:
Now I am fairly big capitalist
I, by contrast, am a fairly trim social entrepreneur.
(Keeping fit is a particularly good idea for Type 1 diabetics.)

Nick,
At one time I weighed 320lbs. I was tub of goo, big fat tub of goo….my wife and doctor literally scared me to death. I now weigh about 165lbs. Sugar, potatoes, and Dr Pepper were my demons. I have not had a Dr Pepper in over a year now. I had one a year ago and it tasted so badly, I wondered how I was drinking almost 3 liters a day….

@ Nancy:

There’s a better one – Steve Redgrave was diagnosed as diabetic 2 years after winning his fourth consecutive Olympic rowing title – that is to say, 2 years before winning his fifth. The quality of medication available today means it’s safe to say that we don’t live with diabetes – it lives with us.

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Dee: “…we came across a post written last year by FBC Jax Watchdogs, which includes an enlightening clip that reveals what Robert Morris believes about tithing…”

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Folks, here is the ‘complete’ sermon:

Pastor Robert Morris – Sermon: “Free Indeed”
-Beware of Demonic Spirits – 

(the part in question is at the 17:20 mark) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE9wjBKzET0

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Notes: 

additional links:

http://www.gatewaypeople.tv http://www.gatewayustream.tv http://www.gatewayyoutube.tv 

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“…be no more children, tossed to and fro , and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” ~ Ephesians 4:14-16

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