“Don’t turn your face away.
Once you’ve seen, you can no longer act like you don’t know.
Open your eyes to the truth. It’s all around you.
Don’t deny what the eyes to your soul have revealed to you.
Now that you know, you cannot feign ignorance.
Now that you’re aware of the problem, you cannot pretend you don’t care.
To be concerned is to be human.
To act is to care.”
― Vashti Quiroz-Vega link
Today, I am focusing on two posts featured at The Gospel Coalition website. Both appear to demonstrate a disconcerting lack of understanding when it comes to two issues: spanking babies and the horrors of child sex abuse cover up.
1. Spanking a baby is abuse.
Last week, there was significant discussion throughout Christian websites on Jonathan Merritt's post, Christians have no moral rationale for spanking. This caused a brouhaha with the usual folks weighing in on the biblical™ reasons to spank, while Merritt's dad weighed in on why he wished that hadn't spanked his kids.
From Merritt's post:
…Eighty percent of born-again Christians believe that spanking is acceptable. This is 15 percent higher than the general population.
…In addition to the possible long-term psychological and physiological effects of spanking, there is an increased risk of immediate physical harm. After studying almost 2,500 children, Tulane University professor Catherine Taylor noted, "Hitting for discipline raises the risk of child abuse by three times, and by nine times if an object such as a belt is used."
I wish to focus on the abusive aspect of spanking. In the interest of being transparent, I want to tell you about myself. I read all the *correct* Christian literature on why Christians must spank. I tried it on my kids on a few occasions and decided that I was not cut out for spanking. So, I disciplined my kids using all sorts of methods such as time out and removal of privileges. Although I no longer believe in spanking a child, I also do not believe that everyone who spanks is abusive. Unfortunately, some people, particularly within certain segments of the Christian community do spank, and spank abusively.
The problem of abusive spanking
For the purposes of this post, I am focusing on the abusive aspects of spanking as exemplified by the Pearl method. Here is a link to a few posts we wrote on this. If you read these posts, you will see that the Pearls believe in such things as whipping babies if they start screaming.
they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.
The Gospel Coalition featured a post Funner, Part 3 – Emotional Control written by one of Doug Wilson's daughters, Rachel. It wasn't a half bad post as it dealt with issues on how to help kids develop self control. I have some disagreements but they are not pertinent to this post. She didn't mention spanking which surprised me because Doug Wilson is an advocate of corporal punishment and I suspect she is as well.
….Here are four basic rules [of spanking]. . . .  Never spank in anger. . . .  Discipline must be painful. It must not inflict damage, so use a flat wooden spatula. . . .  Spanking should be a time of instruction. . . .  When the spanking is over, there must be a full restoration of fellowship. (Standing on the Promises, 121)
…If discipline is not painful, it is not discipline. At the same time, discipline must be proportionate and within reason. (Standing on the Promises, 132)
Bloggers and readers of blogs: a call to actively and purposefully confront suspected child abuse in comments.
However, there was a comment to the post that concerned me. I do not blame Femina for the comments. Goodness knows we allow a lot on this blog. However, the lack of negative responses to these comments leads me to wonder if this sort of thing is more prevalent and accepted in certain subcultures.
First, this woman "suspects" that spanking a four month old baby is too young. Just suspects?!! Then, she remarks that spanking a 1 year old baby is probably "too late!" Therefore, she wants to know when she should start spanking her baby! Good night! The spanking of babies is never, ever, ever appropriate. I consider this child abuse.
If this had been my blog, I would have taken that comment, featured it and begged the woman not to spank her baby. I would then offer her some resources and ask her to get some counseling ASAP. Folks, this is not a simple disagreement on secondary issues. This baby at risk of being abused.
Here is my plea. If you are a reader on our blog, or any other blog, and such a statement is made, speak out. Provide resources. Contact us if the remark is overlooked at TWW. If you are a blogger, please confront the thinking as thoughtfully as possible. The only way to make a change is to challenge this thinking at every turn. You may be saving a life.
Please join me in praying for Mary and the safety of her baby.
Child Sex Abuse Cover up is not a misstep
Recently The Gospel Coalition featured Authority in Weakness written by Collin Hansen. He reviewed the Joe Paterno situation, quoting extensively from journalist Joe Posnanski who was supposed to write Joe Paterno's biography. I agree with the core of Hansen's argument. A lifetime of good works can be wiped out with a single bad action. He encourages everyone to confess their sins so that the world will see that all of us have need of a Savior. (Although the words "boast in our weakness" part is a bit hokey. Why must they all overuse the expected tribal language?) He believes that leaders should openly confessing their failures, something that we have argued for here at TWW.
Instead, we seek the good of others before our own, careful always to confess our sin and boast in our weakness, so that Jesus might be exalted above all. We won't be perfect, but we'll offer credible witness to the power of the gospel.
Certain segments of the Christian community seem to want to hide our failings because it will "damage the church." But, the world already sees our faults so the only ones we are fooling are ourselves. One only need look at how the R W Glenn's book, written with Tim Challies, disappeared off Cruciform Press' list of publications with no explanation. Trust me, we all went looking for the reason and that is not due to gossip. Glenn set himself up as an authority on morals and should be questioned as to the soundness of his advice.
However, I believe that Hansen demonstrates a serious lack of understanding of the serious moral and life consequences caused by those who cover up or minimize child sex abuse. You need to follow his argument which centers around the fall of Joe Paterno. He portrays Paterno as living a good life of service to others who was unfairly taken down by a simple misstep at the end of his life. In other words, it shouldn't have caused this much of a public uproar. It requires "perspective."
Since he did so much good in such a storied career, we should keep his ending in perspective.
What does this mean? It appears that Hansen thinks that people are should be willing to forgive anything except outright child sex abuse.
Consider: when was the last time you heard moral authorities confess their sins? Did they lose your respect? Not likely unless you heard a confession from someone like Sandusky who ruined dozens of lives and deceived many others.
It also appears that he is saying that covering up child sex abuse is a simple misstep, not a horrendous sin that caused more abuse to occur.
A lifetime of good works can be wiped away after one misstep.
He makes the following statement which appears to blame those who believed that Paterno was guilty of more than a misstep.
We lift our moral authorities to tear them down.
But even Joe Paterno appeared to understand the ramifications of his actions.
Posnanski told the weakening coach, "You are Joe Paterno. Right or wrong, people expect more from you." According to Posnanski, Paterno nodded and said, "I wish I had done more."
Hansen then goes onto denigrate those who were angry with Paterno, saying they were kicking dirt on his grave!
You'll probably never do as much good as Paterno. And look what happened: as soon as controversy swelled around him, decades worth of enemies emerged to kick dirt on his grave.
He adds a comment by Posnanski in which he claims that it takes "superhuman powers" to do the right thing like call the police. (I always thought that it was a simple as 911.)
To call someone a saint or a fiend is to reduce him to cardboard," Posnanski writes, "to turn his life's decisions into mere computer code, to invest him with superhuman powers—in other words, to make him unlike real people.
Remember, Hansen appears to understand why people would be angry with Sandusky who ruined many lives. Somehow, he does not seem to understand that Joe Paterno did the same thing if he knew of the abuse and did nothing. Any leader who conceals child sex abuse which is occurring on his watch is as guilty of ruining the lives of all of the abused children from the time that he was informed of the matter and did not act. One phone call to the police and children would have been spared the agony of heinous abuse.
Why didn't Paterno act?
Perhaps he gives us a clue in this answer. Was he trying to protect himself instead of the children?
The day after he was fired, Paterno could not stop crying. "My name," Paterno told his son and fellow coach Jay, "I have spent my whole life trying to make that name mean something. And now it's gone.
Hansen is well aware of another situation of child sex abuse cover up which was revealed this summer. Our regular readers will know where this is going.
The confession of child sex abuse cover up by Grant Layman, formerly of Sovereign Grace Ministries
Many people were stunned when former SGM Pastor Grant Layman (and CJ Mahaney's brother-in -law) confessed, under oath, that he knew about the child sex abuse that was committed by Nate Morales and said he did not report it, even though he knew that he should. Nate will probably spend the rest of his life in jail. In my opinion, Grant Layman is morally responsible for any child who was molested by Morales from the moment he knew of Morale's despicable actions and chose not to report it to the police. That is NOT as misstep.
Here is a response from Boz Tchividjian when asked about the SGM situation.
But the scandal of the Louisville, KY-based Sovereign Grace Ministries, which began as a national network of charismatic evangelical churches but eventually adapted a Reformed theology — suggests that the problem of child sex abuse and the seemingly inevitable cover-up in conservative churches — is a pattern that is deep and wide. And part of that pattern is that too many leaders enable the abusers with their silence, their refusal to consider that the accusations might be true, and/or their efforts to silence the victims. Child abuse investigator Boz Tchividjian thinks the silence of Evangelical leaders regarding child sex abuse in evangelical churches is not only "deafening" but speaks "volumes".
Indeed. It speaks volumes about the character and moral vision of the leaders of the conservative denominations that comprise the base of the Christian Right
This past week, I have fluctuated between anger and tears as I read about Christian leaders who proclaim the Gospel with their voice, but remain silent and/or defensive about the horrors of child sexual abuse within the Church. These leaders have once again, and perhaps unwittingly, demonstrated the art of marginalizing individual souls for the sake of reputation and friendships.
Earlier this week, I read the second amended complaint filed by eleven plaintiffs against SGM, two churches, and a number of individuals, including a man named CJ Mahaney…. it is one of the most disturbing accounts of child sexual abuse and institutional "cover up" I have read in my almost 20 years of addressing this issue. Besides the horrific accounts of child victimization (some of which allegedly occurred on church property), what struck me most about these allegations is the systematic efforts by these churches to discourage and sometimes prevent the families of children who had been victimized by church officials from speaking out and reporting to law enforcement. Another aspect that struck me as I read (and re-read) through this complaint were the myriad of common threads related to the efforts made by these SGM churches to silence these survivors.
Perhaps Collin Hansen does not see the ramifications of his words. At the beginning of his post he discussed the nosedive in the confidence level of the public in organized religion. Note how he mentions the problems with the Catholic church's cover-up of child sex abuse.
Last month Gallup reported that Americans' confidence in organized religion fell in 2012 to an all-time low. The slow decline began in the 1980s with the televangelist scandals. An uptick of confidence in religious leaders followed the September 11 attacks, but cover-ups of sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic Church sent those numbers plummeting in 2002.
When Hansen deems Paterno's lack of concern for the lives of children as a "misstep," does he realize that it causes me to wonder if this is what he believes about the controversy over child sex abuse cover up in SGM? Is it a simple misstep in his view?
Some of his buddies at The Gospel Coalition have been quite solicitous of the issues at SGM and have yet to retract this statement. Perhaps this is why we continue to have problems with child sex abuse in the evangelical church which is just as bad, or worse, than the RCC according to Boz Tchividjian.
Perhaps other folks at The Gospel Coalition view the cover up of child sex abuse as a simple misstep? That may be the reason that they blocked a fair number of people using #IStandWithSGMVictims.
Jesus had something to say about this.
"If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Matt 18:6 NIV
Misstep? Not by a long shot. It is time to call child sex abuse cover up what it is: enabling a pedophile to continue to commit heinous crimes against our children. May God have mercy on those little ones who were harmed by the silence of men who knew. And if you think that child sex abuse cover up is a misstep, it is time to address the very big hole in your heart.
First!! I am excited! Now off to read…
I’ve never been a big Penn State fan, but besides winning a lot of football games, what DID JP do for the rest of humanity?
It’s so hard to read these posts, because the (out)rage and anger just make it hard to breathe. What is wrong with these people, and the thousands of sheeple across the world who don’t want to think about it? ARGH
I know it happens, I’m not that naive, but really just how effing stupid is that Mary woman? Does she know nothing about child development? I don’t even like children and I want to run to wherever she is and rescue that baby.
Colin is invested up to his eyeballs in the YRR movement and associated business enterprises. He is not talking about Paterno, IMO. I think he is, again, trying to delegitimize criticism of C.J. by using Paterno as a proxy for C.J. Mohler was all over Paterno’s failure to act on his moral duty, but his business partner C.J. is a victim.
Regarding spanking, the culture of the Reconstructionists like the Wilsons is rooted firmly in Gothardism. Years ago, it wasn’t the magical wooden spatula, but it was the magical wooden spoon. Gothardites we knew kept one in several locations so that it would be readily available to break the will of a child via multiple spankings per day, if necessary.
I’m not a spanking idealogue one way or the other. Damage or injury or emotional abuse is abuse and not acceptable. We reserved spanking for the “capital offenses” of lying to us and disrespectful defiance–sort of like a hard reboot of attitude. I hated it, but we thought it was important to make a distinction between that and everyday issues. For most infractions or corrections, logical consequences and natural consequences worked much better for us.
We cracked up not long ago when we heard our young grandchild apply logical consequence reasoning to a neighbor child who kept throwing her toy over the fence and demanding that our grandchild toss it back over to her. The last time, the toy stayed where she threw it just as she was warned it would if she threw it over the fence again. Ha!
We didn’t have a thing called “timeout” but we did deprive the offending child from an audience while having a tantrum. It seems kids no longer have tantrums. They have meltdowns. Whatever. When the child gained control, they were welcomed back into civil society. Don’t like what’s served for dinner? OK, you’ll enjoy it for breakfast ’cause then it will be cold! Some incidents have become family lore.
We didn’t see discipline in terms of breaking a will, but creating a civilized and mature human being who was respectful and responsible. IMO there is way too much helicopter parenting and obsession over every little thing that Precious Snowflake needs or wants.
Years ago on a American Christian forum, some trolls infiltrated asking about spanking, these lovely naive women never realised that the “spanking” the troll was asking about was sexual in nature. It started off with statements like “my mom spanked me as a child and I loved the discipline as it brought me closer to God” to “How do you spank? I want details so I can check if I have it right before I have children” I hope “Mary” is a troll and not a real woman with a poor little baby.
Check out Samuel S. Martin’s ebook on spanking; he shares very interesting and little-known background about the instances of use of the rod in the Bible: https://www.facebook.com/byblechyld
He was a very helpful resource as we navigated through our thoughts on discipline (raised by spankers, but along w/ hubby have decided not to spank).
When my Mother was young I understand she was abusive. She used an extension cord to whip my brother and sister. My brother and sister were in such fear of that extension cord that they hid it from her. It was far preferable to get disciplined from my Father. When I came along a decade or so later, I didn’t experience any of the abuse my brother and sister experienced and described to me. And my parents were no longer so young when I came along. Sometimes I wonder if the maturity of the parents reflects on the possibility children will be abused? Also I am uncertain how biblical spanking or hitting or whipping children. Proverbs 13:24 does speak about disciplining children, but there are better ways to discipline children that hitting them. It also doesn’t allow for the extremes in discipline news organizations and police reports have described among fundamental sects, such as the IFB where the Pearl method is tauted.
I/we did not completely rule out the possibility that we might spank somebody if we had to, but in fact we did not spank. Did do “time out” and “live with the consequences” and “lost allowance/ lost privilege.” But whapping on a kid? No.
Children do have to learn to obey some things. Like: “Do not run out into the street. Quit trying to drown your brother in the toilet. Don’t ever again even think about filling up the oil tank with water from the garden hose.” And eventually, if necessary, “No, you cannot date some inked up druggie just out of rehab.” But you don’t have to beat on somebody to get those messages across.
Fortunately we got good compliance without spanking, and yes I think that was partly by starting really young. Example: When they were still relatively bitsy, and I got called back to the hospital on some night when my husband was at his hospital doing a case, I would take them with me, put a pad down on the floor and put them on it. They would just lie down and go back to sleep. Because I said so and because they were sleepy and because they got praised for it, as far as I can tell.
To this day, however, they both say they thought that if they did not cooperate there was no guarantee that they would be allowed to live to grow up. Hey, I don’t know. But I believe both that the parents are in control, and that spanking (in my experience) is not necessary. Above all, though, I do think you have to be good to your kids; proactively and intentionally and publicly good enough so that people tell you that you are too good to those kids and that nothing good will come of it. And in return you expect and insist on responsible behavior, “because that is how we do at our house” and because “this is the kind of people that we are.”
And of course you pray a lot and gobble a fair number of Tums and forget there ever was such a thing as a good night’s sleep pretty much.
Now, as adults and parents, my kids do not whap on their kids, are good to their kids, and are getting good cooperation. And my kids like (or seem to) their father and me and can deal with authority whether theirs or somebody else’s. Not saying anybody is perfect, but this one area of life seems to have turned out well.
Here is the other side of that story. Sometimes those night calls would be for a total body scan (single shot AP view of a baby) looking for evidences of multiple prior episodes of abuse bad enough to break bones. They would need a reading right then to call the authorities to come take the baby away from the parents before they could take it home and maybe finished it off. I cannot even tell you, or write in public, or even hint at the rage I feel at that sort of thing. God will have to forgive them if he chooses, but my job was to help the baby and not the abusive parent(s).
Listen world. Quit beating the kids. Quit. Quit. Quit.
The case of Mike McQueary, the Penn State tight end coach who first blew the whistle on Sandusky.
It hasn’t turned out well for him.
I was spanked twice in my whole life. Once was for stealing money (5yo – I knew it was wrong but I caved to peer pressure and then immediately fessed up as soon as I saw my mom), the other I don’t remember. I was swatted once or twice on my (clothed) bottom with a wooden spoon. I’ve found out as an adult that this barely even qualifies as spanking in most American evangelical homes. I suppose I should have grown up to be a gangster or a prostitute or something else horrible like that, what with the “lack of discipline” in my home.
Next Botkin post is up:
I cannot express how much I wish I had never spanked my children. Did they need to be disciplined for something? Sure, but I wish I had spent my “discipline” time as “discipling time.” Reading these posts struck a chord in my soul. I was so hard on my kids. Thank God my husband discontinued all spanking at age 11 for the kids. Looking back breaks my heart. Looking forward I can only trust the Lord for His goodness and mercy at work in my life and in the lives of my husband and sons.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
I’m not surprised. He’s getting blamed for Destroying Penn State FOOTBALL, right?
Because FOOTBALL(TM) justifies anything. Even child molesting.
“I was a Football Star in High School. Once I Scored THREE TOUCHDOWNS in ONE GAME!”
— The fortysomething loser from Married with Children
See my comment just above.
FOOTBALL(TM) Justifies Anything.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You know I still don’t get it and I grew up in Texas with football players and coaches in my family and they don’t get it either. of course that was BEFORE football coaches became the highest paid public employee in many states.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
What Penn State did to Mike McQueary should not have happened. But there are some unrepentant people sitting about 30 miles from me, in the oh-so-inaptly named “Happy Valley.” Hell, even former pres Graham Spanier is *still* on the payroll, *because he has tenure.*
The most baffling thing to me are the many, many apologists here who think Joepa was some kind of semi-divine being. I hate what Penn State football has become, but it brings $$$$$$$$$$ from affluent alums, and of course, that’s what *really* matters /sarcasm
PSU is very good at academics, but you’d never know it from mass media. I am proud of the school itself and po’d and all kinds of disgusted by many of the top people and their sports empire.
I sure don’t get it and never have, and i live in the heart of Lion Country!
There is a major gap in my understanding of “spanking” as described above. Why in seven hot hells would I want to “break” my child’s willful defiance? And is there such a thing as unwillful defiance? What am I missing here?
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
You’re missing the chance to beat the sin out of your child before they are old enough to cause real problems . . . (snark)
You know I helped raise a nephew, I was there, in the background running into the foreground when needed. I never even thought about striking my nephew or any other kid for that matter, even if I had my own. Again another reason I hate God and am an Apostate. He was a great kid and he never would have killed me for my shiny watch when he was 16 months old if he had the strength of an 18 year old like some preachers preach think Paul Washer.
I wont go into my upbringing, I have made peace with it, but it did affect me. What really bothers me is the systematic dogmatism of spanking, it was like some of the sites on wife spanking and the justifications for it. They play the God card alot. Now spanking a baby, I e Maybe one year or less my one response call 911. That would be my response. My nephew turned out really good, I think one of the primary reasons is he was allowed to make his own decisions. I did introduce him to my early faith tradition and I think that gave him some pause, as it does me now. Anyway he has come to peace with his spiritual walk for now.
I do think we cannot attribute to children adult motives or responses, kids are kids, they are not some fallen vile vermin of Satan spawn, they are kids. If you want your kids to be adults, you need to grow up, not them at this point.
I think anyone who hits a baby should themselves be subject to the rod.
The rod of discipline can be literal, but I take it mainly as figurative for exercising parental authority. There a plenty of non-violent ways to get it into their brains when they have done wrong. Ours were on rare occasions given a smack with the hand, but to be honest this was for something extreme, as a regular method of punishment I doubt if it is effective.
Maybe some evangelicals are over-reacting to the let them do as they please or they will be psychologically damaged for life brigade. It certainly is possible to spoil a child by being too soft.
As ever, best course is to avoid the extreme ideologues of either side.
I found this post quite troubling.
Firstly, because of the way in which the actions of a (then) dying man are raked over and used to justify a “moral” position by someone who doesn’t know him personally. In this regard I agree with Gram3 that Mr Hansen has other things in mind when writing.
Secondly, Mr Hansen’s interpretation of Scripture seems to be at variance with what the words actually say. For a start 2 Corinthians 2:9 makes absolutely no mention of boasting. It says ” For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything”. He probably meant 2 Corinthians 12:9 which says “But He said to me,’ My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness’. therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” and then v10, “For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and calamities. for when I am weak, then I am strong”. That is not a justification for continuing in sin, it is a declaration that we should live in the power of Christ, serving the flock of Christ.
Similarly, John is not confessing his sin in Matthew 3:11, he is pointing to Jesus’ greater work. Only David is confessing his sin and Mr Hansen misses the point entirely by talking about composing a treasure in the midst of horrifying circumstances. David is confessing his sin to God who alone can forgive.
Perhaps the worst example is when Mr Hansen says that Jesus did not need to confess any sin but established His moral authority through perfect love and staggering miracles……er, No, Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who came to seek and to save the lost. The miracles were not a substitute for anything, they were a declaration of His authority to speak and to save. And it is before Him that we live and it is to Him that we shall give an account.
I think the Paterno thing is terribly misunderstood and misreported. Paterno made a report to his superiors.
Years earlier, he had made a report to his superiors, his superiors reported it to the authorities, and, after some sort of official investigation involving the local district attorney’s office, nothing was done.
In the subsequent event that resulted in all of the news coverage, Paterno reported what he had been told to his superiors at the university. Why is Paterno being blamed for not acting when he did what he was supposed to do? That is not a cover-up by Paterno, nor Paterno ignoring what he had been told. PATERNO REPORTED IT!
You may not be a gangster or a prostitute, but you do seem to be somebody who can think for herself. In some segments of christianity that is even worse. Gs and Ps can repent, but thinkers are hopelessly doomed, so some people think.
This is off topic (but I tie it in), but I have been misrepresented in the past and I want to bring this subject up for clarification and update. (And to say “I told you so” bad as that is.)
In a prior discussion I mentioned that Father T (catholic) in RCIA had talked about “baptizing the idols” and some folks had a real problem with that. Well, last night my peeps came back from wednesday night at the episcopal church where they are learning to be episcopalians and where Father S (episcopal) is teaching an OT survey course and guess what, he used the term “baptizing the stories” in trying to explain something utterly mysterious in the OT (angels and the daughters of men). He said that we just don’t know about that and maybe we are just “baptizing the stories in some of these things.”
This is a way of expression that is out there and being used, and it does not make me (or Father T or Father S) a bad person that I mention it. In fact, I think it is highly descriptive and very useful.
And, to continue that thought, I think that when people (alleged christians) call child abuse “biblical discipline” they are trying to baptize an idea to make it acceptable.
I grew up in a family in which my dad was part of a group of Russian/Eastern European immigrants. All of the children that i knew were spanked. often with our fathers’ belts. It was an acceptable form of punishment within the community. My father was spanked the same way.It did not happen frequently, probably a couple of times a year.
However, as i grew older, I realized that my obedience was based on trying to avoid the punishment and came to understand that there are far better ways to punish that do not involve hitting your kids.
I do not believe that any of my peers growing up would view this punishment as abusive although now I believe ti borders on this. It was part of a culture, made up of poor people who lived a hardscrabble life and this was what you dod to make your kids obey. I doubt any of them had ever heard of “time out” although “go sit in the corner” was often heard.
Thankfully, we are wiser these days and immigrant communities are not as isolated as they once were.
Every time I think I have heard it all, I learn something new!
My father used his belt on my brothers. I don’t know who he hurt more..my brother or me as I was upstairs with my pillow over my head crying. I was trying to drown out my brothers cries. The memory still haunts me 60 yrs. later.
What a great mom! I still remember my dad taking me to the hospital on Sundays when he did rounds. Loooong before HIPPA! Those are some of my fondest memories of hi,. he would always get me a glass of orange soda while he wrote in his charts! I loved it. I know your kids feel the same way.
You grew up to be much worse in the eye of the church…. a blogger!!! 🙂
(Done) Just Watching wrote:
Do not be so hard on yourself. You were doing what you thought was right. All of the books that were being pushed by Christians advocated judicious spanking. It was the norm. I am sure that your children have grown up to love you just as children in ages past have loved their parents who spanked them. You motives were right. Your information, and mine, was not.
But kids are resilient. The most important thing is that they know you love them and you obviously do by your comment.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Truer words were never spoken, HUG. Are you following the case of Greg Kelley in Texas? We wrote about it.
Some of his advocates, many of whom claim to be Christians, are some of the most foul mouthed people I have ever read on Twitter. But, he was a football player and dated the cute blond girl and therefore must be good, and telling the truth, even if he used to lie and tell people he was a Marine sniper.
Take the hero worship and apply it to the people who come to this blog and try to defend the indefensible when it comes to celebrity pastors. We all need our idols. I think God was hinting at that in the original commandments “You shall have no other gods before me.” But we like our gods, our idols.
However, knowing the Biblical narrative, I find it interesting when we are shocked that our idols are sinners and sometimes do heinous things. You would think we would learn.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Now this is a great question that really pokes at the heart of the matter. Thank you for getting me thinking.
Our goal should be to modify behavior while building an understanding of right and wrong. The will is most important. Sometimes I wonder if some of these insulated homeschooling/patriarchy communities want to develop compliant kids who become compliant adults. These compliant adults then bow to the will of the pastors/leaders and do what they are told.
My dad used to take me to the court house with him, usually just to look up records but sometimes to sit in court. I thought it was awesome.
Most of us have gone to churches who tried to beat the sin™ out of us!
Just curious… Did he also make a report to the police? If he didn’t, why not?
Your nephew is privileged to have you in his life. Thank you for being there for him.
I want you to know that I am so glad your are commenting here and telling us about things in stupid Christian culture that have caused you to walk away from the faith. It has been my goal for many years to listen to stories like yours and try to become more thoughtful and understanding. If you would ever like to tell more of your story, please let us know. I bet we could learn a lot from you.
They should be arrested, in my opinion.
That is what I think. But good news, the people who develop robots may soon have something that these people can “adopt” and then they will not have to mess with real people-kids.
What kind of sense does it make to say “God made you but I can break you.” This really crosses some boundaries that quit being misguided and at some point start being evil–defying God himself in his ongoing creativity. This goes way beyond just saying that some behaviors will be required and some will not be tolerated.
@ Gavin White:
Another great comment from you! Wow!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
There are three times I hit my son, none of them a “spanking” – just a slap, and I am thoroughly ashamed for all of them. All but one of them happened when he was a teenager, one when he was about ten.
I have since apologised to him for these slaps – the apology was very graciously accepted, he added “Well, I was often quite difficult to like then, I know”.
But slapping him was wrong, nevertheless. It shows that as a parent you are either helpless (and it’s never good to act out of frustration, where you don’t know how else to deal with the situation), or a someone who is willing to take out frustrations on weaker people. Why should anyone ever trust someone like that? Why should your kids ever trust you if you regularly spank them?
Yes, they are clothing their sin ( taking out their anger on a much weaker being) in pious language to dress it up as a virtue.
I actually think your terminology is quite useful in describing certain ideas. I have heard this term used before.
Could you give me a link to the story in which the DA’s office investigated the situation and nothing happened?
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
This, too. Also, if he thought anything as going on, he should have posted people un the showers, etc to insure that Sandusky was never along with the children. Paterno did say that he should have done more.
You’re probably right, but they could not complain if the punishment was to receive a dose of what they dish out. Brings out the Old Testament in you!
This thread brought the Eph and Col verses about fathers/parents not provoking their children so they don’t become angry or resentful/embittered. I suppose this means choosing a level and method of discipline where you children will one day thank you for it rather than say what a bully you used to be. I’ve heard very little teaching on this theme in churches I have been in, maybe priorities a bit skewed? More necessary in a society like the UK where discipline of children has largely gone to pot and abuse is endemic. (Cue: Nick.)
2 Comments not approved. Would said person please stop cutting and pasting large segments of approved comments. Please refer to Gus’ last comment as an example of judicious use of cut and paste.
@ Arce: but he did NOT report it to the police! You have to understand Sandusky’s tremendous influence via The Second Mile as well.
Reporting the secual assault of a child (or adult) to one’s superiors but NOT to legal authorities helps exactly how? Our state law *allowed* the report to eupetiors to seem as if it was ok to not call the cops. What would you suggest someone should do when they are made aware of a sexual assault?
It seems to me thwt “Don’t rock the boat” was one of the overriding “ideals” in this case, for Patetno and others, as well as for theuniversity’s administration. They priveleged their adhetence to a particular part of the law over getting Sandusky arrested, and over proper reporting of multiple incidents to legal authorities – who might well have done nothing anyway, consideting the high status of the abuser, but still!
“FREE TO A GOOD HOME?”
…it is easer in this nation to abort um, dan ta adopt um; what is wrong wit dis picture?
Because that has worked out so very well in 10,000 years of written human history! 😀
But seriously – I want my children to have willful defiance. Duh. How else will they stand against injustice? How would you describe the prophets in the Bible? Shrinking violets? Pretty sure Jesus was willfully defiant against the “authority figures” he faced – and beat with a whip of cords, as I recall. I think Dee nailed it – the goal is complaint drones who don’t question their religious authorities.
“Ich habe nur meine Befehle ausgefert.”
(“I was only following Orders.”)
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
You’re not a Control Freak.
That’s what you’re missing here.
(and the sleaze factor is appropriate…)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You are so right “I was only following orders.”
Paterno seemed to come to an understanding of this before he died. He said “I wished I had done more.” In fact, this could be his greatest contribution to all of us. I hope that I do not die saying “I wish I had down more” in regards to protecting children.
“Sometimes I wonder if some of these insulated homeschooling/patriarchy communities want to develop compliant kids who become compliant adults. These compliant adults then bow to the will of the pastors/leaders and do what they are told.”
I think that’s true in at least some cases. They want to make sure of producing ideological clones for the culture wars, so the heathen can eventually be outvoted. Which leads to the other big reason, being quiverfull. When you have a large family, homeschool, etc., it is simply easier to manage everyday logistics when each child has been vigorously trained by force to immediate, cheerful obedience without questioning. I’m sure there are other reasons, but I see those as the big ones.
I don’t think Hansen is not bringing up Paterno to talk about Paterno. IMO he is participating in the campaign to rehabilitate Mahaney and making an oblique point that one incident should not define a life or career. So therefore it is perfectly OK for Mahaney to be in the pulpit and anyone who talks about it is violating Hansen’s principle.
I don’t know the facts about Paterno because I don’t follow sports. He should have reported the abuse to police, morally if not officially, and it may well have cost him his job due to embarrassing his superiors. From what I’ve heard, he was highly regarded enough to get another one. Like SGM, it is tragic all the way around.
I taught in Texas as many of you know and coach swung a board at kid’s backside for years now, they still do.
In the 1980s I swung the board two times. Afterwards I was sick to my stomach, and never did it again. I discovered there were all sorts of methods to discipline that work even better than the board.
I often wonder why some of the coaches and asst. principals can’t discover that swinging the board, well, generally doesn’t work for a lot of these kids, and there are other things that work much better…..I think they do it because it is easy, and it is quick….does it work? Well, if it did, why are you swatting the same kid three days later?
I think you are on the money with this one. You will not believe the post they (TGC) just featured…Dave Harvey, formerly of SGM forever, discussing celebrity pastors!!! We will write a post on this. Unbelievable. Also, Jared Moore sent me a tweet about this blog wanting revenge not repentance. This happened yesterday. Coincidence?
Agree with this. For the Greatest Generation, being spanked or even beaten was common. It is a cultural thing, I think. Somebody has said we do what we know. When we know better we do better.
In my experience, parents frequently act out of fear for their children, including how their children will “turn out” so they consult the “experts”. We have spoken out about the Gothard and Pearl and Ezzo philosophy and methods. The parents we knew/know who follow these principles love their children, but they believe the wrong people–people who are profiting off of the parents’ good intentions and promoting dangerous doctrines.
So they can now say they have spoken about celebrity preachers, so, see they can’t possibly be promoting the celebrity culture. Same as using women in various ways to promote their gender views. Or publishing an article about reporting abuse when the Morales verdict came out. But *never* repenting of their slander against the people speaking out about Mahaney. Repentance is for the little people.
I wish the women and men who allow themselves to be used this way would think about what they are propping up and perpetuating.
I was spanked as a child. My father typically used either a belt or his hands; my mother typically used a flyswatter or her hands. I lived at home for a couple of years after my mother’s death (I was grown by this time) and I can still recall how the family dog, who outlived my mother, would whine and put his tail between his legs every time I picked up a flyswatter to kill a fly. I had to calmly reassure the dog that I had no intention of hurting him.
I’ve never been married or had children, so the issue of whether to spank has been moot for me. However, I see far too many instances these days of children running wild or otherwise misbehaving, even at church. This leads me to wonder how, or if, they’re being disciplined.
My two brothers and I got spanked–if you count a single swat on the rear-end with an open hand “spanking”. I only got it once, for doing something particularly dangerous, same for both of my brothers. Big secret to a lot of parents out there, “christian” and otherwise–if your kids love you and respect you (because you’ve earned their respect), their parents’ disappointment in a kid’s behavior hurts worse than any spanking would. One swat apiece and we all wound up gainfully employed, productive members of society with zero criminal records and loved both our parents dearly until the days they died.
Physical abuse, whether it’s a swat or, more particularly, when it’s a beating with a belt or paddle, tree branch or plastic pipe, earns you zero respect. It certainly won’t garner you any love. What it’ll get you is a child that fears you, a child that will express affection for you and appreciation for the way they were raised not because of any real affection, but because of Stockholm Syndrome. Picture the most abused dog you can–cowering, peeing uncontrollably, cringing away from your hand in fear of being struck–and that’s what you’re doing to your kids. If you do that, if you stand there and claim to be doing it “out of love”, because it’s “in the best interests of the child”, you have no clue what love looks like.
…the ‘heart’ of da child abuse matter, ‘Bad Leadership’?
food for thought?
Barbara Kellerman – “Bad Leadership”
OUTBREED THE HEATHEN.
“We conquer the lands of the Infidel! Our wombs shall be our weapons!”
— attr to Extreme Euro-Mullah touting the Islamic equivalent of Quiverfull
Whenever I hear the term “immediate first-time cheerful obedience”, I think of a scene from the WW2 movie Is Paris Burning? Goes like this:
The German occupation forces are cleansing some vermin. Night in the woods outside Paris, lit by military-vehicle headlights. Close-up after close-up of young blonde Germans lit by the headlights — all starry-eyed, cheerfully-obedient, smiling. The light plays on the double Sieg-runes on the right collar patches of their uniforms and the Hakenkreuze on their Stalhelms.
Then the cattle cars pull up, the vermin are herded over to the mass graves, the order is given, the young blonde SS-Manne obey immediately and cheerfully, and the exterminations begin.
6079 Smith W at the end of Nineteen Eighty-Four.
The last four words of the book?
“HE LOVED BIG BROTHER.”
How would he know? Most of the subjects you write about haven’t bothered to repent yet. Revenge could only be noticed if someone had actually apologized and offered restitution to those harmed and then people were still writing about their offenses. Jarred doesn’t know what he is speaking about.
I remember that. I didn’t see the comments, but warnings went out on our local homeschooling circles that this was happening. There was also someone who was claiming to conduct a telephone survey on disciplinary methods, whose questions on spanking were said to grow more and more detailed as the call went on.
@ (Done) Just Watching:
Amen. I’m with you. Our kids know I love them, but I still wish I had never bought into that teaching.
Good point. I admit I hadn’t heard baptizing used in that context before.
I was wondering the same thing. He might have wanted an inhouse solution in order to keep a lid on it but he had a moral responsibility to contact the civil authorities if he suspected abuse.
So if Paterno’s involvement was a “misstep” then obviously CJ Mahaney’s child molestation response at SGM was just a “misstep”, too. That seems to be the message from Colin Hansen. What a sad message to those molested and abused. What cold heartedness and callousness.
That pretty much sums it up. It is called PR spin and it works for those in that bubble. They cannot seem to see themselves as they really are.
What does this mean? Children are not disciplined, but abuse is common? We have found memories of England, albeit from a long time ago. What is it like there now? What has changed? I have been so wrapped up in my own struggles I have not been paying attention to much more outside our sphere than news headlines.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I am so sick at having been sucked into this culture. We began homeschooling on account of bullying and in search of better academics. The Moores’ ideas brought freedom from academic bondage and practices that weren’t working for our child. John Gatto’s writings helped us to have enough courage to break free of the system when professional educators kept telling us that parents are incapable of educating their children. Gregg Harris and his delight directed learning was a real eye opener and great boon. The rest of his package in particular was not so pretty… it’s almost like the benefits of home education was a loss leader that got us into the store, where he and others of his ilk had a captive audience – or at least an audience that had experienced some of the benefits and so perhaps were a bit less critical-thinking towards the social engineering that he and his cronies later introduced.
I have to admit, the package looked good from the outside. The kids of these homeschool leaders looked good, spoke intelligently and respectfully. The fruit was attractive. Of course, after reading on HA I’ve seen the seamy underside.
I grew up in a spanking family, with elm switches used on us.
But bear with me a bit: spanking just. did. not. happen. to smaller children or babies. Nope, and it didn’t happen willy nilly to older ones. You had to have been taught not to do something. You had to have been warned a few times. You had to have been disciplined a few times with time outs or writing sentences, or extra chores, etc.
In short, you had to be in downright outright knowing and willful rebellion.
And then you got your own switch. And got spanked over your clothes. Not physically painful or abusive, but you knew that you knew that you knew you had crossed a line and simply better not cross that line again, or else.
Neither my brother or I ever wanted to know what “else” would have been.
The local school used ping pong paddles over clothing, in much the same scenario.
Of course, many school years could pass with no one spanked, and parents were always called about a spanking.
Sometimes just the threat truly is enough:)
Thank you for your kind words. Reading them was like a balm to my soul.
There is a lot of misunderstanding on this site regarding Joe Paterno. In the body of the article you said Paterno did nothing. I hope you will correct this misstatement. Many years before, Sandusky was accused by a victim’s mother of child sexual abuse. The DA did not /could not bring charges because of lack of evidence. Sandusky soon “retired” from Penn State but continued running his charity of “helping” at risk children. Much later a Penn State assistant coach caught Sandusky abusing a child in the Penn State showers. He reported it to Paterno, who within 24 hours reported it to two men: his direct supervisor and the person in charge of campus police. In Pennsylvania college campuses are like their own towns. The police with juristiction for crime committed on campus are the Penn State campus police. Not only did he report it to the police, he reported it to the person in charge of the whole department. These two men ciminally dropped the ball. Paterno never followed up on the case to see if it was progressing and he wished that he had. Paterno is not blameless, everytime he saw Sandusky, he should have been reminded to ask the powers in charge what was up with the investigation. He was not blameless and he admitted it. But Sandusky was not an employee and Paterno trusted the men who were in charge to do the right thing. And he did not witness the crime, he just passed on what was told him when he found it out.
As far as what did Paterno do for Penn State. He was much more than a football coach. He boosted education as much as his team. He contributed millions and help raise millions more the library/school.
Paterno is nothing like CJ Mahaney. Mahaney did worse than nothing. He created an environment where people were actively discouraged to go to the police.
A few thoughts….
1- The quoted researcher in the beginning of the article is a classic case of not differentiating between correlation and causation. Adults who are abusive are most likely also going to be “spankers”. So, while it is true that children who are spanked as a form of discipline are more likely to be abused, this does not show that choosing to spank your kids increases an adults likelihood that they will develop into an abuser.
2- The usage of a term like “misstep” is misused here in the “Defending JoePa” article. A misstep is something that you, upon realization, fix immediately. Ongoing “misstepping” is a pattern of behavior that shows it is not a misstep, but a willful choice. And, based on the severity of the form of missteps under discussion, it is unacceptable. Someone may make a misstep to think they are ok to drive after drinking too much…ONCE(not that once is ok). But after one time, the argument of “mistake” is forever eliminated. And even if 99% of the other times they drive they are a great driver, I believe they have forever lost their right to be a driver(or at least they forever have to have a breathalyzer to start a car thingy)
3- Frustratingly children are not cookie cutters and each one is uniquely different. What one responds well to is not a template for the next. As parents, it is our responsibility to know how best to respond and direct each child in response to their unique personalities.
I was a very difficult kid when it came to willful disobedience. I loved(and love) my parents a ton(and still talk to them a few times a week), but their “disappointment” in my behavior didn’t phase me at all. When I was ten a Dr from our church took our family to a fancy restaurant for lunch. Having never attended such a swanky establishment my dad talked to me about appropriate behavior as someones guest at a nice restaurant. Namely, DO NOT ORDER THE MOST EXPENSIVE THING ON THE MENU!!! This instruction was given a specific example of the well known(and very expensive) shrimp dish. Now, I hated shrimp, but by virtue of telling me not to….well….when the waiter asked for my order I did not break eye contact with my dad as I calmly said, “I will have the shrimp dish”.
My parents are James Dobson readers and so spanking for me stopped around 7 or 8. Dobson argues that you start around 2 and stop around 7 because at 2 you begin to deal with willful defiance and danger issues that need to be corrected quickly and effectively and by 7 or 8 other forms of punishment are much more effective(such as grounding, no tv, etc) But he also contends that each kid is different and that for some kids, other forms of punishment can be more effective(time outs for 2 year olds for instance).
While I was in a constant war of wills with my parents and deliberate dangerous behavior that often required quick discipline, my little brother was a completely different kid. I don’t think he was ever spanked. You just had to look at him sideways and he would cry. He was overly concerned with pleasing my parents and phrases like “disappointment” were VERY effective. We were both homeschooled(until middle school) and I would refuse to even look at my books as early as age 6. “School” would literally take me from the time I woke up until the time I went to bed because I simply refused to do what I was asked to do. My brother, finished everything by lunch….
Spanking isn’t the solution, and neither is “disappointment” phrases. Responsible parents are responsible to shaping and training their kids in the most effective way for that INDIVIDUAL kid. So it is wildly unhelpful for one parent to lecture another by saying “Well, “this” works for our kids, so therefore that should be what you do as well”. Should there be some basic unalterable standards that need to be adhered to(ie, no bruising, bleeding, excessive, infants, etc)? Of course. But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater and decide that everyones kids are exactly the same.
Agreed. They comb through the Bible for every other verse about parenting and always, almost without fail, forget about this one completely – probably because it contradicts most/all of the rest of the things they want to teach. The Pearls’ recommended technique of deliberately baiting toddlers/babies with an appealing object, then swatting them on the hand when they try to take it, would seem to be esp. relevant here.
@ Adam Borsay:
What did your parents do in your case that was effective in changing your behavior? I am, of course, assuming that something changed your behavior.
Spanking absolutely changed my behavior. In all honesty I wasn’t spanked very often, but its usage corrected behavior immediately. Not that I wouldn’t return to that well at some point in the future, but it was effective in generally causing me to rethink choices. I can honestly say I never once felt “unloved” and always had a clear understanding of exactly what was happening and WHY it was happening. Spanking was never tied to “random” events. It was always in relation to repeated offenses and deliberate behaviors in the face of clear warnings.
When I was about 5 my little sister and I did not get along. She wanted to hang out with me, I did not want her to do so…..I was helping my dad do some sort of project that required a hardware store trip. I guess I had been especially mean to my sister lately and my dad had a very clear talk with me concerning this behavior…and in light of it how I was not supposed to tell my sister that we went to the hardware store without her because it would really hurt her feelings.
Upon our return I IMMEDIATELY sought out my sister and said, “Daddy took me to McDonalds because he loves me and doesn’t love you” A few minutes later my dad tracked me down holding a sobbing sister. When he asked why I disobeyed I calmly stated, “I didn’t tell her we went to the hardware store…..”
I was spanked. And I never did something like that again. Not that I did not have a number of run ins with my sister, but the specific act of trying to break her heart was never repeated.
Because it was not good enough. There was no doubt about what Sandusky did. He was seen in the very act of raping a young boy. There can be no misunderstanding about horsing around or a child being coached by his parents to lie and get money (not that those defenses were believable). He was seen.
The police should have been called and an arrest made immediately. The assistant coach instead told Paterno who told his superiors and neither did anything else after they those superiors let it go.
Paterno had more power than the administrators. No one was going to fire him! He should have used that power to see that justice was served.
Paterno could see for himself that Sandusky was still having access to young boys through his football camps operated on Penn State property and through his charity Second Mile. He continued to bring boys to the games!
Paterni should have asked the assistant if he has been interviewed by the police. He should have contacted the police himself to see why there appeared to be no active investigation. He should have stood up for the children who were victimized!
Paterno did his job as a coach. Big deal. He won a lot and got a high salary for it.
But he is supposed to be a big hero because he was molding boys into men. Apparently it didn’t matter to him what happened to boys who can’t play football!
I’ve heard (somewhere..sometime) that a spanking erases the guilt the child might otherwise have regarding the disobedience or whatever. He/she feels the price has been paid so to speak for the transgression.
I wonder if a different type of discipline doesn’t provide the same.
Of course the package looks good from the outside.
How else would it suck people in?
And when they discover the seamy underside, they’re too emotionally involved to back out.
Same principle as a con game.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
P.S. Years ago, someone told me about the 1984 movie adaptation of Nineteen Eighty-Four. And that the end had been subtly changed. Instead of a broken population unit just waiting to be Disappeared, the movie implied that 6079 Smith W was to be promoted to the Inner Party. As my informant put it, “ONLY WHEN YOU ARE BROKEN TO THE SYSTEM WILL YOU BE ALLOWED TO ADVANCE WITHIN THE SYSTEM.” That that analogy as you will.
Tell me that this isn’t true!!!
And this is what passes for Christian education/childrearing in a (however large) part of American evangelicalism?
The church is sicker than I thought!
1 comment not approved.
Seneca, I told you why your comments were not approved. I have asked, and you blatantly ignored my request that people not cut and paste long comments and then make comments on the long comment.
This is not censoring. It is saying to link to the comment, cut and paste small portion of it and then comment. This is a common courtesy to readers who do not want to have to sift through one long comment and then be forced to read it again in order to sift down to you thoughtful insights like “I agree.”
You are accusing us of censoring you. That is baloney. Please go away for about 2 weeks and contemplate whether you will be a polite guest on our blog or if you merely want to stir up trouble senselessly.
@ Adam Borsay:
Well, I do not know you, and I am not an expert, but you do not sound like a bad kid to me. One of my children tried to slam a younger sibling’s head in the car door. If you got spanked and stopped that, well and good. My kid did not get spanked and also stopped that. But either way neither one of you sounds like a bad kid, just a jealous sibling. But I certainly agree with you that immediate and specific unpleasantries needed to be enacted by the parent in such cases.
From the way your original comment sounded I thought you might be talking about violence on your part and time in “reform school” or even a diagnosis of something awful. I am sure glad that was not the case.
It is true.
Bear in mind I can only speak in generalities. In the UK probably since WW2 there has been a significant breakdown in family structure. High divorce rates with all the fall out on children. The sexual revolution of the 60’s. Large numbers of fatherless families (dad has moved on), men who won’t take on responsibility or be committed to the mother of their children, single mums struggling on their own, going from one ‘relationship’ to the next. Areas of endemic high unemployment and the resulting poverty and crime. The UK and US come very low in studies of how happy children are in their societies. Materially rich, indeed spoilt in some cases, but starved of love and affection and security.
This occasionally manifests itself in rioting and out of control teenagers on the rampage. This is where discipline has broken down, either because of family disintegration, or too much psychobabble or whatever you want to call it that children are too easily hurt and should be allowed the freedom to do what they want as though they were already adults. There is also an attitude of the world owes me living – an attitude my sister as a teacher for 35 years noticed as a growing tendency.
Is it like this everywhere and all bad? Of course not, there are still multitudes or normally functioning families. But under the polite British exterior, there is plenty of ‘spiritual’ poverty and neglect of children, and not just in the materially poor part of town.
It is an area where the church really ought to do better and show a better way of life, but I’m not sure it always does.
And no matter what bad PR it brought on his football program. He lost his real “leadership” moment.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Did you know he could have made an anonymous call to CPS? He could have had his wife make the call if he was afraid he would be recognized. How many boys would have been saved from that horror if he had? He was in a position to demand something be done right away.
Me too. I wanted them to be self-motivated and tough and be able to think and act independently and be able to stand alone against peer pressure and be able to reason well. I wanted them to bring home good grades because of some inner drive to do that, not because some parent wanted it. And I wanted to encourage a sense of what is just and what is not, and that right is right for it’s own sake, not just because of the results it may or may not produce. I got all that, to varying degrees, in both children. Now, truth be told, people like that are not the easiest people in the world to deal with, but it is worth it (to me).
But I can see where that would not be the kind of people that the extremists among the evangelicals would want at all.
Infuriating! My former pastor who is second in charge of SGM still supports that evil man CJ!!!
somewhere between ‘the wrath of God’ and the whole Pearl baby-beating thing, fundamentalist evangelicals fell prey to satan and see themselves as trying to break the spirits of infants and toddlers who are manifesting evil . . . I hope they finally come to know that their babies ‘are not some fallen vile vermin of Satan spawn, they are kids’
spanking a small infant will break down small blood vessels and over time can become a serious threat to organ functioning . . . the baby has no defense against the brutality and if preachers are telling parents to do it, which apparently some are, then the evil is compounded
Mike McQueary, the assistant coach you’re talking about, was still a graduate student at the time he found Sandusky in the showers with a boy. He wasn’t yet a university employee, though he was a grad assistant. He was so shocked and stunned that he went and talked about it with his father before going to tell Paterno.
I’m not saying it was right of him to not call the police, but i *do* get the shock, the whole deal with Sandusky being a prominent man and the simple fact that if he had called the campus cops, they wouldn’t have done anything. There is a problem re. jurisdictions, since it happened on campus (University Park), and Penn State has its own police force. The ton, State College (which is a separate jurisdiction, even though it surrounds the oldest part of campus and many of the newer parts) is the true civil authority, but calling the town cops might well have dead-ended, since it didn’t happen in their jurisdiction.
Do yiu honestly think anyone would have believed McQueary if he had called the cops? I don’t, because i know that grad asdistants are a dime a dozen, and it would have been his word against Sandusky’s. *Paterno* should have gotten the law involved, and they would have listened to him.
McQueary lost his coaching job w/the university for being hoest, while Jay Paterno (Joe’s son) is still on the coaching staff. As always, the whistleblower got it in the neck, while the famous man’s son is anything but persona non grata.
Sorry for the rant, but i live in the area and one of the young men whom Sandusky abused is from near here, so…
Yes, i know tjis all too well. I live nearby. Was wakened early in the a.m. by the stream of traffic headed to Sandusky’s trial, even. (I mentioned this and more back when it all broke, and during the trial as well.)
@ Lydia: i suspect CPS would have been thwarted at every turn. The high regard in which The Second Mile, which was operating statewide, is one of the main reasons. Football and the power, influence and money involved is the other.
I think *many* people are culpable, and that *many* people could have done much more. I’m not going to dogpile on McQueary for that reason alone. Going up against powerful people (who run a lot of things locally and who have national influence) is a really hard thing to do, especially when people lokk the other way. Which happened a LOT, or else it would have all stopped a few decades ago.
9oh man. You are living in awe of these fallen idols, and refusing to accept the truth.
Thank you, I have walked away from the evangelical church but not all church, I still go to the older faith communities such as Anglican and EO. It is sort of like this for me, if I did go back to a standard Non Denom Church I have two fears, through my questioning and stance on some historic doctrines I might stumble another and eventually the leadership would have to ask me to leave because of my doctrinal stances.
I may consider writing my story I need to redact so much because of confidentiality as to the type of clients I worked / work with. Take care.
Thought I’d give you some backup for this statement, numo, because I was curious.
One of my friends, who went to Penn State but didn’t graduate from there, had heard rumors that missing district attorney Ray Gricar had been investigating Sandusky, but there’s no hard evidence of that. And Gricar’s been missing since 2005 and declared dead since 2011. So it’s a dead end in more ways than one.
My mother used a metal mesh fly swatter on our bare bottoms when she’d determined we’d done something bad enough. She did this after she’d hit one of us so hard with her bare hand that she broke a blood vessel. Frankly, all the threat of a swatting did to me was turn me into a better liar. I do not remember my father administering any punishment when I was a child, but I think that was due in large part to his very long work hours and the two years he spent working in Los Angeles in the late 1960s (we lived in Northern California then).
That said, and keeping in mind that all swatting did was turn me into a better liar, the threat of being swatted paled in comparison to dealing with my mother’s paranoid schizophrenia. When you’re afraid your mom is going to lose it completely and start waving knives around or try to kill herself, getting swatted is rather a lesser fear. Recently, my younger sibling and I talked about the first psychotic break that got mom locked up in the hospital; I thought he had been too young to remember, but I was wrong. He remembered–heck of a thing to have to deal with at age five. Thankfully one of our family friends unexpectedly came by looking for a quick cup of coffee (mom always had a pot on) and found my mom in an awful state and was able to call for help. But that was a heck of a thing for a child to observe and my brother did. 🙁
Hah, this made me think about my father and his work. My dad was an Air Traffic Controller and way back in the 80’s he’d sometimes bring my siblings or me along for a night shift. It was so cool with the big radar screens and headsets. Heh, one time I was allowed to give instructions and responses to a pilot of a live plane. Obviously long long before 9/11, could never get away with that now!
England checking in for a reality check: I am actually British, have lived here for most of my life & have worked with British adolescents for the last 20 years, including those with massive behavioural issues, those who’ve been in prison, those pregnant at 14 & I want to give your comments on this thread a fairly big ‘huh?’.I don’t recognise my country from your comments, despite many of your points containing truth. It’s like me saying ‘most Americans are obese’.
If you head to most schools & colleges you will find mostly fine young people, behaving & achieving well. I see those who aren’t, in professional capacity & we have our problems (& by that please understand I don’t mean even the most difficult young people, they are valuable humans who may display problematic behaviour) but it tends to be fewer people with larger problems, many of which are caused by the same mix of parental neglect, substance abuse, parental attitudes, lower social economic status etc. The press makes a field day out of these for the sale of selling papers. We are not yet over-run by fear’ youth like zombies gone wild.
And I grew up in a single parent family, due to alcohol abuse, with a mother over-working as a Nurse (permanent nights anyone?) to bring up her kids…& look at us 3 – a Solicitor who works as an IT guru, a Company Director & a Senior Youth Worker/Youth Team Manager.
Let’s not over-egg this pudding Ken.
*fear…. that should be feral. I have a tablet that likes to change may word choices 🙂
Thank you for this very intelligent point.
What is bitterly ironic about it, is that the Pearls are actually copying Pavlovian behaviourism. Yes, indeed: These people are using the methods of a Communist scientist, & passing it off as “Christian”. And making well over a million dollars a years selling their poisonous lies.
And I just want to say on this whole subject of the Pearls & hitting babies: if you think hitting a baby is okay then you may well be entirely demonic.
You got that right!
Awesome. Great job there. You all can be justly proud of how you turned out.
I know several parents who spank their children, and I believe they do it in the best way possible (if there is such a thing) but I can’t stand when they get all preachy about it. As if not spanking means you have no discipline?
I was spanked and although I turned out ok, those are not good memories. My mom used this ruler thing that was a craft I made in VBS to spank. My VBS craft! Even at 8 years old I sensed the irony in that. I can remember one time my dad spanking me clearly out of anger. I think it scared me more than anything, that his instinct in that moment was to hit me.
Now I’m a new mom and can’t comprehend hitting/spanking my daughter, ever. Even though I know she will drive me batty and need “disciplined” in some way, I never EVER want my gut reaction to be to hit. I just want hitting completely off the table from the get go. Does anyone know any Christian resources that are anti-spanking?
Why “christian” resources? There is some good stuff in multiple areas that can be labeled “christian” and some bad stuff labeled “christian.” Unfortunately, the label is no indication of the quality of the advice being dished out. Similarly there is both good and bad stuff which would be labeled “secular.” That whole way of thinking, that something needs to be “christian” to be good, is a trap for a lot of people. Sometimes the label “christian” is just because somebody is trying to market to an identified potential group of buyers. That is not good. Rather think about the value of research based and outcomes oriented information with ideas that have been “out there” long enough for the pediatricians / psychologists / sociologists to have some followup information as to how well something works out.
If somebody thinks that parenting has to be “bible based” and only “bible based” then they will have no information about growth and development, nutrition, childhood diseases, windows of opportunity for learning, bonding and its problems, sexual maturation and its problems, socialization into the existing US culture (safely), vocational guidance (which where I am starts seriously in the fifth grade with the determination whether to send the child to a magnet middle school and thus shape their future), child care issues if you need to work outside the home–good grief, the list goes on and on. The bible does not contain this kind of information. Parents, like everybody else, must make enough peace with “the world” to function at least adequately for themselves and their children.
You did not hear me say to throw out the bible. You heard me advise judicious behavior with lots of layers of both caution and wisdom.
“I never EVER want my gut reaction to be to hit.”
IMO, read widely, listen and observe thoughtfully, and go with your gut (aka “heart”). Because you really sound like somebody with a seriously good heart and a thinking mind. Lucky baby! Congratulations on your new mommy-hood. It can be very satisfying in my experience.
I had not even thought of the campus police angle. And I am sure you are right that CPS and others would have been thwarted at every turn. It seems to me Paterno had the gravitas to make sure this was dealt with and chose to pass it off and not see it through. Can you imagine the difference that would have made in sending a message about child molestations?
I don’t know if they are “Christian” but I have found “Love and Logic Parenting” (just google) to be an excellent resource. They make some very good points about how different things are today from before with social media, instant communication, “liking”, “defriending”, etc.
They are very hard on helicopter parents, though. They think we are raising a bunch of entitled overly sensitive kids who do not know how to cope with any real life stuff. Interestingly enough, I just saw an article Khan Academy wrote saying he will never tell his 5 year old he is smart. He will constantly praise his efforts, though, even if they bring failure. He believes that the process of achievement is what brings self confidence. We tend to make it too easy on them, etc. (And I agree. And school is the worst offender!)
Love and Logic Parenting is big on common sense and teaching through natural consequences especially for teens. it is about them learning how the world works and not the parent’s concern for their own image.
I was one of those who spanked because I thought it was “biblical”. I’ve since gone back and asked forgiveness from my kids who have totally forgiven me, understand that I was just doing what I thought was best, and we have great relationships. They know how much I love them and they love me.
But now that I’m a Grandma, I want them to have better resources and choices.
These resources have helped me a lot. I know there are lots more, but here are a few to start with:
Great books on parenting
Great blog for articles and information
Samuel Martin’s book was a real eye opener for me and he gives it away free
@ Lydia: the campus police thing was discussed quite a bit in local coverage.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
What a wonderful experience!
Thanks for making that point! Parenting is not a competitive sport, and kids are not trophies to reflect the parents’ glory. Helicopter parenting is all about the parents, and it teaches kids to be dependent and entitled rather than learning how to deal with reality. Another think I didn’t think about is social media. Ack!! So relieved I’m not a parent having to deal with that.
Joe Paterno spent his adult life building his name upon a football empire. He was surprised that his name was tarnished because he decided not to act upon abuse to innocent children? Too bad it never occurred to him that he could have maintained his good name if he had done the right thing.
In “pass it off and not see it through”, JoePa sent a message, alright:
“I Hereby Declare OPEN SEASON!”
Don’t know about Pavlov being “a Communist scientist”, but he was sure into reducing everything to Stimulus-Response, Stimulus-Response, Stimulus-Response. Not necessarily filtered through Marx so much as through the Age of Reason/Post-Industrial Revolution meme to reduce everything to a mechanical engineering problem.
Not human behavior.
Not even animal behavior.
Reducto al Biological MACHINE.
Maybe the two are connected?
Nothing (and nobody) can jeopardize FOOTBALL.
Concerning Women’s Ordination: Speaking and Teaching
I couldn’t remember which post it was in the last 3 or 4 where someone was asking about Paul’s use of the word “head” or “headship,” so I’m putting this here. I hope that person sees this.
I also thought the rest of you would find it helpful or interesting.
Paterno is not my idol. I did not go to Penn State.
I made a simple statement that there is a lot of misunderstanding on this site and then presented facts. I try not use to ad hominine statements.
Please point out any statement I made that is not the truth.
He should have done more and admitted that. He told his supervisor and the person in charge of the police. That should have been enough. Due to criminal neglect it was not. Morally he was responsible to follow up, but he did not. But that is not an excuse for people to spread misstatements about him.
Let the facts be the facts and let all learn lessons based on the truth. If you simply say “he did nothing” you miss important lessons. He did everything right within the first 24 hours of hearing from his assistant coach. Let everyone learn the lesson that follow up is also needed. He did not witness the crime. Can someone call Children and Youth Services based just on hearsay? I do not know the answer. Perhaps someone can investigate this question and get back to us. That would be useful to know.
The truth regarding Paterno is bad enough, it does not need to be amplified with lies.
This is a comment area for a blog. I get it. There is no editing for facts. Some people just want to vent emotionally. But someone appealing to facts should not be criticized. I did not criticize anyone.
Also he did an unbelievable good for education. More than any other coach. His reputation was not built on what happened on the football field but off of it. His graduation rate was always among the highest in the country and I believe higher than the general student population. His graduation rate among african-american athletes was equal to the rate among his white athletes. And he worked with other coaches to improve their programs academically. He raised millions to support the academic mission of Penn State including $14 million for their library.
Another lesson: no matter how much good you do, a reputation can be lost if you do not always do the right thing.
If we are to learn lessons from this sad story, let us learn them based on truth. And let us not criticize others who seek the truth.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Both Pavlov and Lenin were influenced by the work of Ivan Sechenow, a physiologist “who maintained that the brain was an electro-mechanical device responding to external stimuli.” (A People’s Tragedy, Orlando Figes p733).
And although Pavlov was an outspoken critic of the revolution, he nevertheless accepted the patronage of Lenin.
P.S. Numo, I like your name.
Jimmy… Jimmy… I swear dude it’s beyond the pale of reason of how you manage to get yourself $hit-canned from the most tolerant blog in the Christian cyber world.
Those athletes miss a LOT of classes because of practices, travel and being sent to out of town motels (to be sequestered prior to home games as well as accomodations for away games). Yes, Joepa talked a good line about education, and i think he believed it, but i am not so sure that it was all as good as you’re making it out to be. Granted, they didn’t have functionally illiterate kids on the team (as has been the case at Ohio State and some other schools), but i think the whole efucation angle was just another way to sell Penn State football – one that got and still gets money from the wealthy alims who do opulent, black tie tailgating, own condos and house *just for coming to home games,* etc.
I am extremely skeptical of both Paterno and the empire he built, because Penn State had a good team long before he began his relentless pudh to get thdm into the Big 190. That didn’t need to happen, but man, has it brought media attention and $$$$$ to the town and to the university!
I am a local, though not a State College resident, so am seeing it differently than the national coverage makes things out to be. While not an alum, i attended for a year, and had/have family and fiends who are employees at ghe Univetsity Park (main) campus.
Oh, so sorry for the typos! Am using my phone, and it shows.
Sad…worrying about your name damaged it.
They could have done the right thing, come forward…gone through some pain but saved so many children lifetime of it.
And instead of being someone who hid it, and hurt them worse, you could be someone they looked to and said “thank-you for defending us”.
I will never understand church cover ups. If you’re worried about how you will look, why can’t you understand that you will have so much more respect if you are known for routing out evil, holding predators accountable, defending those in your care?
No wonder so many feel the church takes advantage of people- it isn’t doing a lot to disprove that.
I wasn’t abused by anyone in leadership, and no one knew until it was over…but even now I feel guilty naming it for what it was, like I’m the liar, like I let it happen, made it happen.
How amplified are those feelings for kids so much younger, who are silenced by the very people your parents told you you could trust with that information?
Most reports to CPS are based on hersay. Molesters take great care not to have an audience and groom the victims.
Absolutely. I know the laws in this regard quite well due to professional experience and then dealing with a church who decided to do their own investigation, said the guy was just fine and the guy went on to horrendously molest kids for another year. Thankfully he is in jail now, Those pastors, in my opinion, bear the guilt for the pedophile continuing to hurt other children for another year.
You can and must report anything you hear about a child being molested. Remember, molestation is rarely observed, unlike what was seen in the Penn State showers.
Therefore, just about every report is “hearsay.” The police have experts on their team that will then do the investigation. Also, a child who is molested and testifies is a giving admissible evidence.
No one should ever, ever, ever attempt to investigate the situation and decide whether or not it is truthful. This should be done by experts and that means the police, the real police, not some campus cop.
Also, you cannot be sued for reporting your suspicions. In fact, you name will be protected as the police investigate. If a person does no report their suspicions o the police, they are morally responsible if molestation continues.
I believe that most missteps are forgivable. Child sexual abuse is heinous and is in a different class of its own. That is the point here. Paterno did not write a history paper for some guy and then apologize for doing it. He did not go to the police, the real police and follow up. Every time he looked at Sandusky after that, surely he thought of the boys? If he didn’t, then why didn’t he? Why didn’t he put spotters in the showers, show up when he heard about sleepovers, etc?
As you know, Paterno said he should have done more. For that I give him props. He should have and he admitted it.
Unfortunately, there are a few high profile pastors who act the same way.
All the Penn State discussion here got me interested in researching the subject further. Perhaps this link has been already referred to in previous discussions, but I found the information invaluable: “In plain view: how child molesters get away with it” http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/09/24/in-plain-view
At first I was thinking “highest paid public employee in many states!?!”, then I remembered health care isn’t publicly funded. But still, how did we get to a place where we elect people who can’t figure out basic public priorities? My husband always says “the Gauls are not far off”. Our priorities are what the future historians will say was the beginning of our western civilization’s end.
@ dee: the young woman reporter who broke the story on Sandusky and the grand jury investigation (and who subsequently won a Pulitzer Prize for this work) was and still is widely reviled. Her paper, the Harrisburg Patriot, took a gamble on her and on the story and won. She followed up rumors and pervadive “gossip” that never went away, along with more hard evidence-type leads.
And yes, there was an abortive attempt at an investigation years ago, which never hsppened and leaves many unanswered questions, along with the unsolved disappearance of the person who would have presided.
There should be extensive archives of materiamaterial on pennlive.com and centredaily.com
Dee, there wete stories circulating in the press that Paterno didn’t understand what kinds of things go on when an adult man molests a child. This has never been substantiated, and i certainly don’t believe he could have been anything like as naive as that!
Many persist in believing what they want to believe about Paterno. That includes his family’s attempt at debunking the Freeh report by conducting an “investigation” with the express purpose of clearing his name. Didn’t work the way they thought it would, though. To my mind, the thing was a slap in the face to the victims, as well as utterly foolish and pointless.
@Gavin White (or HUG), seeing as you’re into your Pavlov/Lenin info and seem good at research, can I ask an unrelated question. I have been trying unsuccessfully to track down Vladimir Vetrov’s pre-execution writings, “Confession of a Traitor”, savaging the Soviet system. Apparently it’s around 60 pages. Surely it must have been translated and available electronically now, but I’m drawing blanks so far (apologies to any patriotic Russian readers of TWW but I’m curious academically and wish to pursue it). Earlier info states that it was never published but widely circulated among the KGB. Am I expecting too much of the internet age?
The article I linked to above seems to allude to Paterno’s naivete – that he lived and breathed only football and watched the Disney channel. It does seem pretty hard to believe.
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
One of those to whom he reported was the supervisor over the campus police.
It is in the public record. And it is why Paterno had limited the offender in what he was allowed to do, but others failed to intervene before the last of the offenses.
I actually believe the part about being completely obsessed with football and also the way in which Sandusky successfully deceived so many.
At my HS, there were several faculty and staff who preyed on kids, girls and boys. All of the students knew about it. But to get an adult who could do something to believe us if we told them? Now, that’s a daunting and almost impossible thing, especially when the people in question have worked so hard to make themselves look like irreproachable role models.
I forgot the most important thing re. telling an adult, which is the same excuse used in the article you linked to – that kids make things up.
It does not exonerate him, though. It is passing the buck, imo.
You absolutely can and depending on your profession are required to if there is even a question. I’m a speech therapist and work with elderly, but am a mandated reporter, meaning I am to report on even suspected potential child abuse, and elder abuse.
I saw a kid absolutely (obnoxiously) covered in bruises at the DMV, went outside, and and called CPS immediately. This was out of humanity in general, but also, if I hadn’t, even not knowing any circumstances, I could lose my license and be prosecuted.
Working at a university, connected to a teaching profession, and if involved in a youth program (I believe he was?), Paterno likely was a mandated reporter. All of my university teachers were, my soccer coach was.
I think pastors, etc…anyone in any kind of leadership role with a kid program connected, especially, should be mandated reporter.
Prosecute a few of those cases may take care of cover ups on the church at least.
In the university, such things have for many decades been reported up the ladder and it was an offense to not do so. Paterno carried out his legal responsibilities by making a report to his superiors at PSU, one of who had oversight of the campus police. Keep in mind that the original observer of the offense was not Paterno, but the assistant, who reported it to Paterno. If anyone should be held to account for not reporting to police, it would be the assistant.
If such incidents were reported to law enforcement, then they would be properly investigated wouldn’t they?
I don’t agree. Little kids are worth the embarrassment and the effort. If he did not think the report had any merit, would he have even bothered to report it? Yet he did not bother to follow up. This is his legacy. He had the gravitas to see this one through and decided not to for whatever reason. Was his world so lofty that such a report did not shock him enough to see it through? Instead of making excuses for him, I would hope more folks (especially important leaders) would look at what happened and learn from his horrible lack of leadership.
At PSU, the campus police are the “real police” with jurisdiction over all crimes that occur on campus. It is that way in many states and localities.
Sadly, it depends on the police department in question….
Well if you’re a mandated reporter, reporting to your supervisor does not absolve you of legal responsibility.
Yes, the assistant should have reported it, but also Paterno.
You are supposed to report to your supervisor, for a report and investigation internally, but also to law enforcement, CPS, etc.
Even if he didn’t want to get in trouble with higher ups, he still could have reported it with his name held confidentially. You have to give your name to CPS but it isn’t released unless an investigation concludes and you have to testify.
I believe it was last discussed in the Anne Graham Lotz thread. It is somewhat on-topic in the sense that a position of privilege and authority has been abused by not being properly used, in the case of Paterno. And, in the case of abuse of Scripture by Hansen and the others at TgC and T4g, then it is also somewhat on-topic since that is what the professional “comps” do.
The article raises some important issues, including what I would characterize as Grudem’s deceptive use of language and Scripture. It also exposes some of the curious “logic” employed by these Ph.D.s. I guess facility with logic is no longer required for that degree.
For some reason, I left the Pearls, the Ezzos and Gothardites off the list of Scripture abusers who go on to abuse other people in the name of being Biblical or doing things “God’s Way.”
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Wow! I’m sorry to hear that. I thought it would be mandatory to investigate a crime. 🙁
Are you joking? They would have assumed we were making prank calls.
They would have to defer to other authorities in a matter like this, but yes – i stated the same thing upthread.
No, I wasn’t joking.
Jim G has commended/defended TWW on the Jared Moore blog post.
“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an angel of light.”
Which is a Bible-language way of saying “Successful Sociopaths (including Sexual Predators) are masters at camouflaging what they are.” Not only do they groom their victims, but they groom third parties as allies to pre-emptively discredit the victim’s testimony should they tattle.
Because nothing can stand in the way of FOOTBALL.
And now that it all went public, the whistleblowers are to blame for everything. “They destroyed Penn State’s FOOTBALL Record! It’s All THEIR Fault!”
Hard to believe, but not impossible.
But personally, very very unlikely.
I’ve encountered fanboys who ARE that tunnel-visioned, but — this is important — none of them would be functional enough outside their obsession to climb into a position like JoePa’s. And claiming such naivete WOULD also be an obvious defense for absolving someone of all responsibility after-the-fact — better be thought stupid than liable. As Johann Banner’s Sgt Schultz put it, “I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
Muff Potter wrote:
As an old episode of Gunsmoke answered the question “How do you HANG a man by accident?” —
“IF THERE’S A WAY, HE MUST HAVE FOUND IT.”
Again, I think this is not off-topic but yet another illustration of the desire of some to control others, whether is it others’ thoughts, actions, speech, if the others are arrogant enough to disagree with the anointed gatekeepers.
Jared resorts to the usual passive-aggressive tactic just like Joe Carter did in his piece “Stop Slandering Christ’s Bride.” They do precisely what they accuse others of. Just like the TgC and T4g guys, they explain everything by saying, “Shut up.”
Funny how they don’t think it is slanderous to accuse all women of being usurpers or more easily deceived. They are the rulemakers, and they want to be the enforcers, too. After all, they have declared they have the keys to the kingdom.
If Jared or David or the others were making a principled point, then they would give examples of the slander and suggest an alternative way of addressing it. They need to get another playbook, because they are so transparent in their tactics.
I wonder if any of them has ever achieved anything of substance in the real world. Or if the entirety of their identity is wrapped up in the church bubble they want to rule, thereby making themselves significant. In the real world, accountability is a thing, though my experience is that it is not a thing in churches–the place where one should expect to find it.
In that thread, Jared and his defenders demonstrate the nearly universal refusal by the YRR to offer a substantive response to a substantive challenge. At least that has been my personal experience in the church and in interactions here, with the exception of Ken and one other whose name I unfortunately cannot recall. The typical response is condescension, refusal to engage, or ad hom. Jared’s entire post was an ad hom, since he provided no evidence, even when asked to do so.
Double standards as usual. Along with the the usual impersonation of animatronic-level reasoning.
I also am a descendant of ancestors from Eastern Europe/Russia, My great grandfather stowed away on a ship to escape the Tsar’s secret police. It’s an ancestry I feel pride towards. And I love those Russian pancakes called blintzes. My parents were good, conscientious, hard working, conservative people, and conservative in a good way. And their door was always open to strangers, no matter the nationality. I can relate to what you describe.
Why do you think there are thousands of untested rape kits in police departments all across the country? No one wants to spend the money. You don’t get Fed dollars to investigate rape and child abuse cases, only drug crimes.
This is the narrative that is given by churches and pastors as to why they didn’t do anything about child sex abuse. The “it was different way back then in the 1990s” is malarky.
Muff Potter wrote:
I propose a new TWW cocktail, “The Jim Sec, on ice”. Triple stirred, but not shaken.
If you’re still here listen to Nancy’s comment on Fri. Oct 03 @ 09:07 AM, she speaks sound wisdom with regard to child rearing.
It was the 70s, and this stuff was not discussed in public. The offenders had insinuated themselves into positions of trust at my school we would not have had anyone to back us up, but the offenders had all kinds of people in their corner.
Being a teenager can bevery hard sometimes. I was not preyed on, and i thank God while also feeling very sad for those who were.
Very much agreed, Dee.
I spanked my little girl last night–for jumping on top of her baby sister over, and over, and over again, even while I was holding her. . She’s not quite 3, very hyperactive (plus rampant insomnia) and the most joyous, giggly little thing I’ve ever seen. It broke my heart. The ONLY reason I did was because she would not believe that she was hurting her sister. My little sunshine laid on the couch after the spanking and cried her eyes out. It’s better than dealing w/ a baby’s broken neck–but THAT is what it takes to get me to spank now. Not a smart mouth. :(.
I claim the right to be “First!” in engaging with Jared. But I did it in a general way to make a specific point. The person who went in ” all guns blazing” was left with a fair amount of “egg on his face” and didn’t do any of the “discernment blogs” any favours.
Oh Numes I’m so sorry you were in such a frightening & dangerous place as a teenager. It is very easy to lose your voice – or never find it- at such an age, especially if you have no idea of who to speak to or if you’ll be believed. Just awful.
Calvinist Janeway wrote:
And the friends I have who ever spank would only ever do it in these circumstances too, where reasoning is not working & kids are getting hurt. You sound like a good Mum 🙂
@ Calvinist Janeway:
That is what I would have done.
The responses to the Paterno situation here bother me. First of all, he reported what he was told to a proper authority. Second, not reporting is not the same as engaging in a cover up.
What the proper authority did or did not do is the problem, not what Paterno did or did not do.
I regularly deal with situations in which a report of physical or possible sexual abuse is made to the proper agency. Sometimes the agency is really vigorous in pursuing the matter. Other times you wonder if they understand the language. Then they will suddenly, and without advance notice to anyone, close a case and refuse to discuss it further, even with the people charged with carrying out a protection plan and who are being bullied by possible perpetrators. And any complaint about abuse at an “approved foster care home” is treated as a wild rumor and not investigated until irrefutable proof is presented. And the reporter is investigated instead. There is a lot that needs attention in the state agencies charged with protecting children from abuse.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
The end result is the same. Anyone who does either is morally responsible for further abuse of children after said person was informed.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
Not when I was doing child abuse and neglect followup. Perhaps you work for a rogue agency?
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
Where I worked, this never happened. I am sorry to hear that you work in such an awful situation.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
In good agencies, the major problem is overwork. Far too many cases per worker. So I agree with this part of your statement.
Gavin White wrote:
I don’t understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? Thanks for addressing him.
@ Anonymous for a reason:
I was involved in a case which was the victim of the sort of thing you are saying.
There was an abused child, and the two physicians who were knowledgable of it were the pediatrician and the radiologist (guess who). The child had been seen in the ER and the hospital had called social services and they investigated on site. No question they knew. They not only heard but they had seen. They (SS) refused to do anything about it, left the child in the home, refused to file a complaint/report with the DA’s office and refused to listen to the protestations of the pediatrician. The specific social worker on the case was at the same church as the pediatrician and knowledge about the situation was not a secret. The pediatrician called me up and asked if I was willing to testify in court if he went past SS and got a lawyer to try to get it into court in spite of SS and the DA. I said sure (probably said “I would love to”). A very short time later when I got to work one morning somebody from the ER hunted me down and told me the child had been brought in dead during the night. No disciplinary action was taken against the social worker.
In my experience, “reporting’ is no magic bullet. And “follow up” is not either. My grandmother used to say “you can’t beat stupid with a stick.” I hope that the social worker was merely stupid and not refusing to take action because somebody was trying to push him to do so. There are some folks like that.
And let me add: young son, back when he was a ADA, has said that child abuse cases are hard to prosecute because often the jury is “understanding” of parents who abuse. He was not making excuses; he has been a cracker-jack prosecutor. I believe that probably juries may indeed tend to be lenient with child abusers. Just saying.
He wrote a post for CBMW going after celibate homosexuals who want to have friendships. This is a long story and I plan to do a post about it but many celibate homosexuals, like Wesley Hill, are developing thoughts on what they are calling spiritual friendships and I think it is a good idea which could be applied to singles, widows, etc.
Moore said that they need to repent of their SSA, day in and out. CBMW published it. I couldn’t believe it. Here they get what they want and it still isn’t good enough for the morals police. I disagreed with Jared on Twitter and you should see what he said. I have the screen shots!!! I shall write on this soon.
So, the other day he tagged me on Twitter and tried to start a fight, accusing me of slander, lies, etc. I told him to have a “blessed day’ and refused to engage him.
Moore is a strange duck.The Deebs have rolling fits of laughter that he got himself voted on as a Vice President of the SBC and he actually ran for President! This goes to show how few people of to SBC meetings and how few people vote. If he is an example of leadership in the SBC, decline will continue.
Just in case you think I am cruel, he is a pastor of a church that has no website or phone number. We offered to buy him a cell phone and help him set up a website for his church but there was no response. I think he is too busy tweeting.
It’s always interesting how increasingly controversial the idea of spanking (and exactly when it becomes abusive) is to our society (even the “evangelical” circles). It seems that the farther away we have gotten from an agrarian lifestyle, the more demonized spanking (in various forms) becomes. Funny how the majority of current studies “prove” spanking isn’t effective – especially when there are so many effective variables and personal biases to consider.
My father used physical pain (via his hand) as one tool of many in the art of parenting on all of his children to teach, instruct, discipline and train them. I’m forever grateful he did. Did he use it perfectly and without fault or room for improvement? Nope. Even still, none of his children thinks he was abusive in any shape or form. None of the kids grew up with tendencies to be physically abusive or violent in any shape or form (that I’m aware of).
We went to a private Christian School in the 70’s and I was paddled a couple of times by the principal. Not a big deal. I was pretty off-the-wall disrespectful on those occasions, but personally don’t endorse schools using corporal discipline. I remember a friend of mine was going to get paddled and stuck an open bible in the seat of his pants, pulled his shirt out to hide it…principal found out after the first swat and gave him twice as many.
My wife and I chose to utilize the “spanking” tool as well (with some modification), and our children have thanked us for doing so as well. They’re free to abstain or embrace the ideas we used when/if they have their own children.
The body of Christ needs to be aware that the societal tensions in the early church between the Jew and Greek in becoming one in Christ (and sitting down across the table to share a meal together celebrating that oneness in Christ) still challenges the body today in it’s various shapes and forms. Parenting philosophy is one of them. Treatment of animals is another. Both can be huge hurdles (emotions run extremely high) to overcome while celebrating the unity we have in Christ.
The tendency is that we pick our sides and then falsely judge everyone else who isn’t doing it “right”. My personal definition of abuse may not be yours, but far too often this prevents us from loving/caring/liking one another. You may not choose to spank, you may choose to rescue cats, dogs or horses, but that should not prevent genuine caring fellowship in Christ towards that brother or sister sitting across the table who may enjoy eating that same cat/dog/horse, and/or uses a form of spanking to train their children.
Just my .02 cents
Moore is about politics, imo. Most of all he is loyal to Mohler. Years ago I read his dissertation/book. What a mess.
I await your post and Gavin’s reply to my comment. I don’t do twitter, so I’m frequently clueless.
What did you read that you are talking about? I read two of his books, the one on adoption (he is a pro-adoption activist) and one on the temptation of Christ, and they were excellent. I see on Amazon he has other stuff which I have not read, so I am trying to get some information here. Thanks.
I’m not sure I know which part of what I said you didn’t understand. Was it on the other blog or here? If it was the other blog, I thought it was quite straightforward. Jared appeared to be making a general point about motives generally – are you seeking repentance or revenge? – but then revealed the real target he was aiming at, namely the so-called ” discernment blogs”, and I think, specifically, TWW. I challenged him about it and he clarified his position, making a distinction between those blogs which dealt in facts and those which dealt in hearsay and innuendo. I thanked him for doing so and told him that I agreed with the distinction and the different consequences which followed on. I then pointed out that, nevertheless, the churches should seek the welfare of the victims and ensure that justice is done either in the church courts or the civil courts.
The post was picked up on the SBCVoices blog and someone fired off a number of rounds at Jared, mentioning specifically the TWW and its authors. He then replied to it and there followed a heated exchange which ended with the commenter apologising and withdrawing.
None of it was necessary and it has caused negative publicity for “discernment blogs”, particularly this one.
If I could just comment on one other thing about this current post here. The focus was on an article written by Collin Hansen but a good number of comments have focused on the late Mr Paterno and whether he did enough, or not enough, was culpable or complicit and the commenters have felt free to offer their opinion on the man and to discount the steps that he did take to deal with the situation. This is the very point that Jared was making about motives. Can you not see that? The focus should have remained on what Collin Hansen wrote, not on the example (Mr Paterno) he gave. By focusing on the latter, some of the comments made may have proven unnecessarily hurtful and distressing to his family.
Gavin White wrote:
The reason this discussion is important is that Paterno could be used (and may currently be being used) as a good reason for not reporting or aggressively pursuing pedophiles in the church. I have been closely following the evolution of the response of TGC to the continued developments in SGM. Several of the leaders in this crowd have come out with statements that indicate that perhaps those who do not report pedophile incidents, (we know about what Grant Layman said under oath,) may have done so because they didn’t know how to handle these things back in the 90s. In other words. “They just didn’t know what to do. Poor them.” The apparent lack of aggressive followup in SGM may have resulted in the numbers of allegations in the Second Amended Lawsuit.
Frankly, I don’t give two patooties about “motives.” Motives are hard enough to determine when I am thinking about them for myself. We can speculate about “my good name” statements made by Paterno because he said it. In the end it boils down to “not enough was done and there was no excuse.”
Now we can ignore the warning signals in this story in order to protect someone’s sensitivities. However, this entire incident has brought to light the issues surrounding child predators for the general public. I have found it far easier to explain my concerns about child sex abuse and the church since the Sandusky incident.
In fact, Joe Paterno may have left a behind a story that will cause other people in public positions to do more when they are confronted by such incidents in their lives. If this story leads to that, then perhaps Paterno may have helped many, many children in the decades to come.
He said “I wish I had done more.” Perhaps his story will have done far more than we can imagine.
Gavin, let me remind you that your participation in that entire mess with Jared Moore led to you being banned from this blog. It was far more complicated than the explanation that you give here and you know it.
This blog exists to listen to what the world is saying about Christians and their institutions. We have people coming here from all sorts of backgrounds. We need to listen very carefully to the voices who take the time to comment here.
I don’t care what Jared Moore says or thinks about us because doesn’t get what we are doing. he has judged our motives, even this week. I have the tweets. Does he get to judge because he is a pastor? I care more about what he says and does to hurt others and that is why i will be writing about his disturbing tweets and CBMW article in the near future.
Gavin White wrote:
The greater problem which no one in the YRR has been unwilling to acknowledge is that their credibility is shot with anyone who tries to maintain consistent standards which are applied without respect of person.
When their main M.O., which I have experienced very personally and face-to-face, is “Shut up and go away” when confronted with any wrongdoing among their number, then they will continue to be the topic of “discernment blogs” or “discernment divas” or any other pejorative terms they dream up to deflect from the real issues.
When they stop curating their comments and subject themselves to some accountability to the community into which they speak, then they will have some standing to criticize “the blogs.” When Colin Hansen or Joe Carter or any of the other Approved Voices calls these men to repentance, then it will be reasonable to believe their motives are pure. Until then, they will continue to be clanging cybals.
I will re-read the posts and comments in light of what you have written here. Thanks for responding. As I said, I do not use Twitter and so do not “get” what is being discussed.
@ Gavin White:
Why is it out of line to question Joe Paterno’s motives but it is OK to proclaim the wrong motive of “discernment blogs.”
I don’t even know what happened at Penn State. Apparently others here do. But you should direct your concern about pain to his family to Hansen who brought Paterno into this and especially to R. Albert Mohler who loudly denounced Paterno while equally forcefully defending Mahaney who did the very same thing.
What is the difference between the situations? The difference is which people benefit, not any principle. Try speaking against Mohler at SBCVoices and watch the Righteous Indignation party break out.
I think, in light of the other nothing-to-see-here-move-along-Driscoll-who-CJ-is-not-a-crook *actions* by the YRR luminaries, it is not difficult to connect dots. They have become predictable.
Should be “willing to acknowledge.”
Gavin White wrote:
This discernment blog moniker is all a pile of dog poop.Moore does it. And, if you want to read about “discerning motive” read this blog post/comments at SBC Voices. ROFL.
Hi Gavin and Dee,
I’m the one who had the exchange with Jared Moore. I’ve challenged both Dave Miller and Ed Stetzer on that blog concerning the same tactic – attacking specific people using vague and impersonal language. It’s evidently becoming common practice in Christian blogdom – being accusatory while still holding to plausible deniability. I had read TWW earlier in the day and saw that Jared had tweeted Dee concerning the title of his blog post. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Moore was accusing TWW of sin and slander, all the while couching his accusations in vague language and Bible verses. I challenged Jared to lay his cards on the table, “man up” (in my words), and tell the world about whom he was writing as he had already told Dee. I personally think Christians should be above such shenanigans. If TWW is committing slander (and I don’t think you are), then Moore should courageous enough to say so without hiding behind ambiguity. I think it is manipulative and deceptive to vaguely and generally accuse of sin when one has specific people in mind.
I caught a lot of ire from Dave Miller over it. I think he is employing a double standard, and told him so. Why is it okay for Jared Moore to accuse TWW of committing slander in an offhand way (without a lick of hard evidence, mind you), and not okay for me to challenge Moore to be honest enough to identify his accused, when I have the evidence for what he is doing? To make matters worse, Jared had a handful of people in mind and said so in a reply, fully incriminating himself as to his motives and target audience.
I can only surmise that I exposed a manipulation and marginalization tactic that folks don’t want exposed. That’s my takeaway, anyway. There was nothing left to say there. I was in unfriendly territory over the issue, and keeping up the dialog would have been fruitless. I offer my apologies to the Deebs. I’m sorry if I caused you negative publicity. I was trying to keep Moore from backhandedly soiling your name and the work you are doing.
@ Beakerj & Calvinist Janeway:
I think that this whole spanking thing has devolved over the years into a contest of extremes. On one extreme we have nut-bags like the Pearls (who should be prosecuted by the way) and on the other polarity we have parents raising ill behaved monsters with newfangled nonsense (ask any air traveler who has had the back of their seat kicked and brutalized and then sworn at and dressed down by the parent(s) for daring to object). I believe there’s a way forward with a carefully crafted fulcrum point.
I was spanked as a child (baby boomer) because that was what parents did. I wasn’t ever beaten, either. However, as a mandated reporter for both my school and church, I have come to the conclusion that there are better responses to children than spanking. The 10 or so cases of abuse I have reported over the years have not been perpetrated by serial sadists, but by parents who had no other method to deal with a difficult, out of control child. All they knew was to beat it out of the child, just like their parents had done to them. With proper counseling and child-rearing principles, most of these cases had positive outcomes of keeping the child in the home. I am currently teaching one of them right now.
As to all things Penn State, I think the current brouhaha in football over whether or not it is okay to play football while you have been accused of domestic violence reaffirms why I am so constantly turned off by professional sports–it’s all about the money. I don’t care how great an athlete you are-creepy sexual perverts need to be locked up, and husbands who beat their wives need to be held responsible, too.
Jim G. wrote:
Thank you for doing so. And you are proving to be right. A couple of days ago, in Twitter (I have screen shots to put it into a post) he tagged me and asked if i wanted, get this Revenge or Repentance. I said Repentance, of course and then asked if he was judging my motives, once again. he then went off on the old slander nonsense and I wished him “a blessed day” since I wan’t going down that path again.
Also, I wrote a post on what constitutes “slander” (which is verbal but they use it for anything they darn well please).
Moore, and all of the other gospel™ boys would do well to review it. They sound like a bunch of thin skinned third graders who only fool people who trust *Christian leaders* without question.
Jim G. wrote:
Do not apologize to us! You were awesome. I thank you for doing that!
As for our reputation being soiled with some of those folks, they think we are minions of Satan as it is. The fact that they discuss us means we are getting under their skin and for that I am grateful
It is. Many teams purport to teach good character yet seem to hide when they have to actually act on good character.
Gavin White wrote:
OK, I went back and read Jared’s post on his blog with your comments, and that is something I should have done in the first place. I don’t understand how to reconcile those comments with the one I quoted above. Jared linked to the post on Driscoll in Haiti as an example of unfounded speculation. What is specific about that? Did the events not unfold as reported at TWW? Are we not allowed to draw reasonable inferences from the available evidence? If not, then we also need to abolish our justice system because that’s exactly what happens.
It’s really difficult to grant these guys much charity when they have shown their agenda so many times. It’s especially difficult when one is female and it is drummed into us by these guys that women are universally rebellious and want to overthrow authority. But they feel not obligation to prove such. Power is what they are about, not repentance.
It would have been helpful to the point of the posts by both Hansen and Jared if they had pointed to even *one* example of where actual repentance by one of their number resulted in a desire for revenge by any of the “discernment blogs.” They are just putting out a straw man hoping that no one will notice. So, until they start leading by examples of repentance, it is reasonable to conclude that they are just blowing smoke of the “Shut up, woman” variety with which all women are familiar.
Jim G. wrote:
Certainly know that feeling. Thanks for drawing attention to the double standards. Miller and Moore did not defend themselves substantively.
This is one of the things I find so curious. Except I would say that they sound like insecure 12 year-old boys, having had considerable experience with those. They bluster on as long as they can control the environment. But if you challenge them, they run away and call you names instead of answering like a mature adult would respond.
As for offering grace when repentance is offered, let me just recall the incident with J.D. Hall. I offered him grace, but it does not seem to have made a difference. So, now I think he was trying to do damage control. Dustin came here all blustery, but ran away when he couldn’t control the means of communication.
It’s as if all the talk of manliness is a mask to cover up what they suspect is missing. Bullying others verbally will not create a sense of maturity or manliness. Without control of the communication channels and without having double standards, they have nothing. It would be far better for all if they would consider what constitutes real maturity and manliness.
@ Jim G.:
Gavin should not have brought that whole incident up. He started a firestorm and went after us in a big way. He was banned from our blog. It was a really, really bad situation. Even after being banned, he continued to make us feel most uncomfortable behind the scenes-actually scary. If you knew about it, I think you would have felt deeply uncomfortable as well.
Recently, Gavin wrote me and explained some things which I shall continue to hold in confidence. He appeared to be sincere, remorseful and appeared to be making an attempt to be reconciliatory while sharing some difficult, personal issues. I decided it was worth another chance.
That is why I was shocked that he brought this whole thing up. It should never have been discussed by him. He needs to back away from the discussion of the Jared Moore incident. If he continues down this road, he will not be allowed to comment. This is not done to censor him.
Jim, you did nothing wrong. You tried to defend us and for that I am grateful. Jared is a difficult individual. It is best not to engage him which is why I am still debating whether or not I should discuss what happened on Twitter and his article. All it will do is call attention to him and embolden him to attempt, once again, to accuse TWW of all sorts of slander, etc.
I’d reckon many see it as the EBI (evangelical bureau of investigation) and come here to see who’s made it on the “Top Ten Most Wanted” list, though Limbaugh would probably give you the EIB award (excellence in blogging).
Gavin White wrote:
I don’t want to set a cat among the pidgeons, but to me, this statement appears like past modus operandi Gavin, directly telling TWWers how to act and operate. Anyhow, carry on.Gavin White wrote:
I don’t doubt it, because it’s a pretty nasty, messy topic. And in it all, I keep the victims (or however they wish to define themselves) front and centre. And especially when I read Dotti Sandusky’s comments.
They are going to accuse you and the commenters here, regardless of what you write or don’t write. The facts don’t matter. The narrative matters. Their narrative is that no one is permitted to critique them, and most especially no one who is female. They don’t like it when their narrative is challenged with facts. Facts which are brought into evidence by females do not count as real facts. I think that is why Jared declined to specify what was speculative in TWW post about Driscoll and Haiti. He can’t say what his real reasons are, so he must resort to the usual passive-aggressive tactic.
I posted on Jared’s website because I knew he was having a not so subtle swipe at TWW and I thought there were double standards in play. I got him to make a distinction between factual blogs and those that deal with rumour and hearsay. I pointed out to him that the victims deserved to be heard as well and the church needed to act. I told him that the courts, church, civil or criminal were there for a purpose. I told him that it wasn’t good enough to tell victims to leave it all to God. He didn’t respond to that.
I agree with you that the term ” discernment blogs” is meaningless and that it is used now solely to denigrate others.
I agree with you and Gram3 that there is something rotten at the heart of the New Calvinists. It took me a while to see it but I think I have documented my journey privately to you. That is why it is important to point it out, because very few know what the reality is.
I disagree with Haitch. My remarks were not “post” anything. I was making an observation about the way things had developed. I was not telling anyone how to act or think. I think Haitch is the one trying to stir the pot.
I don’t know how to respond to you when you say I should not have brought the whole thing up because of past events. In the past I spoke against TWW. This time I spoke for TWW. I don’t intend to return to the past. It is a bad place.
The ONLY reason I linked to the SBCV article here was because it is very rare for a man to actually stand up to them in comments and tell it like it is. I thank Jim G for saying what I would have liked to say there years ago but get moderated, drowned out, etc. One just learns to expect it there. Most don’t even try anymore. And I totally agree with Dee about Jared. Best to steer clear if one does not want to get sucked into totally irrational argumentation tactics.
Some of us tried to warn SBCV concerning Driscoll (they constantly praised him)
years back but were constantly spanked or told: But he preaches the Gospel and saying anything about him is just trying to cause trouble. Typical YRR speak.
Jim G–Thanks. These blanket, vague accusations/rebukes have gotten out of hand. They are simply a way of control and plausible deniability at the same time. Very cowardly.
@ Gram3: Actually, Paterno reported to someone above him, meeting at least the requirement that he report, and it was to the chief of the local police force (campus police, but still the one with authority). Mahaney covered up and pushed little children to forgive their abuser. I think that is not the very same thing!!!!
In the late ’50s, early ’60s, when I was in Jr. High, paddling by teachers was allowed (it was downgraded and then removed shortly thereafter). We had a choral music teacher who was about 5’4″ in high heels, less than 120 lbs, and as cute as she could be. When one of us guys would act up, she would get the paddle, take us out to the hallway and give us a whack. Because we laughed at her whacks, she would back up, take off her shoes, and get a running start. We timed it and flattened out about the time she got to us with her big swing. And she would go on down the hall, spinning in her stocking feet on the waxed terrazo. Needless to say, after a couple of those, she recruited another teacher to do the paddling!
@ Anonymous for a reason:
I did not intend to draw any equivalence between the situations, though I do believe that Joe Paterno had a moral obligation to pursue it as far as possible to protect minors. As I’ve said, I don’t follow sports and have never set foot in PA.
I think Mahaney had a moral obligation to report the child abuse to the police even if (and I don’t know the relevant statutes) he was not a mandatory reporter. But he had an even greater spiritual responsibility to protect the children by reporting the abuse and excommunicating Morales. Don’t get me started on Mahaney.
I’ve also pointed out the rank hypocrisy and self-serving pronouncements of Mohler on Paterno and both of the Gospel Groupthinktanks on Mahaney.
This is not theoretical to me because I was involved as a witness in a child molestation case involving a high school teacher. Life was not pleasant for me because the teacher was well-liked and I was considered the enemy for speaking out. His attorney wasn’t easy on me, either, and did his job as he should. If a teenager can go against peer-group pressure and a deposition, then grown men who claim to speak for God should certainly have the moral and physical attributes necessary to do so.
@ Anonymous for a reason:
I re-read what I wrote and realize that I used the words “same thing” regarding Paterno and Mahaney. I had in mind the same thing with respect to the matter at hand, i.e. child abuse, and not that the situations were identical, though I understand how my language was clumsy and imprecise. I think Mahaney had a far greater responsibility to report, and I lack the vocabulary to describe how he treated the children and their parents.
I apologize for being unclear about that and take your point.
I’m open to alternative responses to spanking that would be as effective (or more) on young children, but am unaware of any. Our mindset from when the kids were born was to train them to develop habits of self-control in their daily lives (no we didn’t spank infants).
My wife was very proactive in regards to training during non-conflict times – “blanket time” and such were methods of achieving this (thanking Ezzo for the ideas). It helped them to stay away from the dangers of living in an environment on the farm -streams, pond, corn fields, livestock, vehicles/equipment, etc.
When my oldest was six she was able to help me out a tremendous amount – driving the truck for 3/4 of a mile through streams, gates, sharp turns with a trailer attached while I was behind the trailer assisting it with the tractor. She also operated the skid steer by herself while watching my hand signals.
When the middle child hit twelve/thirteen he ran his own sawmill, chainsaw, lifted logs weighing several thousand pounds with the skid steer onto the mill, etc., for years onward without one hitch or accident. His customers really enjoyed seeing a young kid being responsible.
If our kids weren’t responsible and able to listen to our instructions at an early age – there would be more chance being injured or killed, so imo, there is a lot more involved in the equation of whether spanking is effective or not. It very well may not be part of the parenting pie for everyone.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
How well trained are they in investigating sexual abuse by teachers and faculty? Do they receive exactly the same kind of training as non-campus police? And why should their jurisdiction preclude also calling CPS or someone else with perhaps more expertise?
@ Jim G.:
You got farther than I did, Jim. At least Moore responded to you. I left a comment on that article before heading to bed, and it was deleted by the time I got up in the morning. Admittedly, I garnished it liberally with sarcasm, which may have condemned it to the round file.
My comment to Moore:
What does everyone think? Too over the top?
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
There are both formal and informal rules regarding the hierarchy in a major university. It would not have been inappropriate for Paterno to have called CPS. BTW, it would have been very appropriate for the graduate assistant or his father to have made that call, or a call to the police, but no one is hanging either of them out to dry for not making such a report.
What the training of the PSU police force covers — I do not know. But I do know that at most state universities, the campus police force has the first and primary jurisdiction for investigation and enforcement of the law, and other agencies generally respect that. There are often agreements regarding specific crimes and circumstances, between the campus police, state police, county sheriff, etc. An example: If a student resident on-campus has committed a crime off campus or discovered by an off-campus force, the campus police will be informed and will be present for the arrest by the other agency, in almost every instance. Most large campus police forces on state university campuses have full police power, just like city police in a mid-sized city.
BTW, in most states, CPS does not have power to arrest, and their investigation power is limited. Thus, if CPS had been called and no one knew the name of the child, it is likely that CPS would have called the campus police and referred the matter to them! That would be true in the two large states where I have some experience with this kind of thing.
Let’s drop the Jared Moore fiasco and go on.
@ Serving Kids In Japan:
I can think of a some of reasons it was deleted. First, females who comment on *their* blogs are deceived and rebellious and stepping outside the designated female role. Second, you commit heresy against their god of double standards by pointing out that they do what they complain about, and three, you fail to take them SERIOUSLY. THEY ARE SERIOUS. No shouting intended, but I don’t know the protocol for low, serious tone.
Do you mean that they read my comment and assumed that I’m female? Heh, heh. I get that a lot, for some reason, even though I’m a 40-year-old man.
Gavin White wrote:
Thank you for acknowledging this. It is a difficult thing to be smacked with a 2×4, speaking from personal experience. I hope you continue your journey away from this false gospel and the leaders who promote it. I pray that you and the others that were involved in the difficult times here find full reconciliation. Please try to work within Dee’s guidelines, because I think your perspective could be valuable if you have really turned away from this blight.
Thank you. That means a lot to me.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
You serve kids, which everyone knows is woman’s work. You don’t agree with their view of masculinity, therefore you are an honorary woman on 2 counts, at least if you believe Driscoll, and I think they do. You’re in good company, though, because Gramp3 is an honorary woman, too, according to John Piper and Wayne Grudem, noted experts on and exemplars of all things masculine. And Owen (not John.) How could I have forgotten him?
Apologies for the mistaken gender. I have trouble keeping some details about commenters straight, obviously.
Pastor Crystal Lutton has excellent resources; they are referenced on Why Not Train A Child. (So are a bunch of other good things!)
Don’t mention it, Gram. My nickname doesn’t make it easy, I know.
Hmm…my thoughts on spanking.
First, I was raised to believe that not spanking showed a lack of love and that only ‘liberal heathen’ (or ‘Philistines’ or whatever my mother’s pejorative of the day was) thought that spanking was abusive. I was also taught that there was a difference between ‘spanking’ and ‘beating’ and that spanking was okay and beating was not. Actually, on a fairly regular basis, I was taught what abuse was by being forced to read (or have read to me) horrific stories of abuse (locking in the basement in the dark for days, chained to the bed, etc.) starting as early as 5 or 6 years old.
Within that framework, I was whipped with a leather or vinyl belt starting as part of my potty training (or maybe sooner, I’m not sure). Here’s the thing. The only thing those whippings ever did was scare me, humiliate me, and create resentment. Did they modify behavior? Yes. Did they train my heart? Unfortunately, yes, to a degree. They trained me to fear and resent and mistrust authority. I still fight that nearly 50 years later. They also trained me to hide and stuff my emotions and lie about how I felt. When my parents told me to stop crying or they would give me something to cry about, I knew they would make good on that.
So I think from the time I was about 10 until I was in my late 30s, I didn’t cry more than a handful of time. I know by the time I was in college, I had stopped crying and when a situation arose that would naturally create emotions that would be accompanied by tears, it was a replaced by a cold, sad sort of despair inside with a total blank on the outside. That can be a very frightening place to be.
I remember that last time either of my parents tried to whip me with a belt, I was 14 and my father tried. I do not remember in any way why he was spanking me. But I remember vividly fighting back for the first time. I think it scared him and neither of them ever tried again.
My opinion now? Spanking can too easily cross the line into abuse. There is no way around the fact that it is one big person hitting a much smaller person. And if the anger flares and the spanking slips into a beating, there is no way on earth to take that back.
It is also my opinion that my parents cloaked their abuses in religious beliefs and hid them by highlighting horrible abuse – the concept being, ‘this child has it so much worse than you. They are abused. How dare you compare the whipping you deserve to this horrible thing that was done to this other child. That is abuse, what you experienced is not. Aren’t you glad we don’t abuse you like that?
No, I am not a fan of spanking. And spanking an infant is just plain
power/control freak evil, in my opinion.
Yep. What I said here:
Straw man indeed!
Oops, I must have missed that while I was trying to sort out Jared at his site with Gavin’s comments and Jared at SBCV and the Jim’s and Dave’s comments there plus Hansen’s post. I guess great minds *can* be female.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
It shouldn’t(.) But then they are working on campus, for the school, so my guess is they wanted to cover for the negative press that would surely follow. I can’t understand it, though, nor allowing Sandusky to continue to have access to the campus for his program and the abuse that was happening. I don’t get it(!)
Dee said ” For the purposes of this post, I am focusing on the abusive aspects of spanking as exemplified by the Pearl method. Here is a link to a few posts we wrote on this. If you read these posts, you will see that the Pearls believe in such things as whipping babies if they start screaming.
they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.”
In all fairness to the Pearls – the website you referenced “Heart of Wisdom” unfortunately went and sensationalized the terminology the Pearls actually used in the snips they provided.
Terms Pearls used: little spats with (small 12″) switches, spank, switch, licks.
Heart of Wisdom’s terms to describe Pearl’s: whipping, hitting
Abuse is indicative in the terms H of W uses.
I cannot believe that you do not get the facts. IT WAS REPORTED to an officer of the law who supervised the police that had both jurisdiction and authority. In most states, CPS does not have had either, unless there was a child making an outcry or an identified child victim who can be protected. As I noted earlier:
“In most states, CPS does not have power to arrest, and their investigation power is limited. Thus, if CPS had been called and no one knew the name of the child, it is likely that CPS would have called the campus police and referred the matter to them! That would be true in the two large states where I have some experience with this kind of thing.”
Had CPS been called, the matter would have been referred to the person to whom Paterno reported! The issue in the case is that that person,the head of that police department, decided not to do anything about the matter. That is where the breakdown occurred.
In a matter with which I am familiar, it took almost a full month, with multiple calls to CPS by agents for a parent of a child, to get an investigation started about the reported threat of sexual abuse of a child by an older child on the child’s next visit to the home of the non-custodial parent, during which time the child was scheduled for two weekend visits. Reporting to CPS is only effective if you can name the child, ID the likely perp, or the abuse has already occurred. Their job is protecting a child, not prosecuting the perp.
Ken, the Pearls are well known for their abusive parental punishments. We have written extensively about them. I find their materials despicable.
Fairness? It is just Plain Wrong to hurt a baby and there is no holy god (small ‘g’ intentional) or holy book that will ever make it right.
In all fairness to the Pearls – the website you referenced “Heart of Wisdom” unfortunately went and sensationalized the terminology the Pearls actually used in the snips they provided.
Terms Pearls used: little spats with (small 12″) switches, spank, switch, licks.
Heart of Wisdom’s terms to describe Pearl’s: whipping, hitting
Abuse is indicative in the terms H of W uses.
ANYONE who believes that a 7-month old, or any baby for that matter, needs a spank, switch or licks is an abuser. Babies scream because they are acting like babies, not because they are being “sinful.”
Despicable doesn’t touch what the Pearls teach. And the Ezzos before them. Anybody remember the Ezzos using the example of the Father letting the Son cry out on the cross for their childrearing propaganda? I will say that I’m confident they all have significant personal knowledge of total depravity, their favorite doctrine.
That is still physically and painfully impacting the body of the child at an age when the child cannot understand or intentionally modify their behavior. The words the Pearls use indicate abuse, plainly and simply. If you were here, I could raise blood blisters on your behind and the backs of your thighs with the instruments the Pearls advocate. It is pearlalous (!) behavior that is abusive.
I did not write that comment that you attribute to me.
Dee/Deb — please correct the attribution in the comment made by Linn at 10:03 this evening. It is misattributed to me instead of properly attributed to Ken.
Gram, I left here because I hate being moderated and never knowing when my posts and responses go through, or even if they will at all. If you wish to interact with me, I do swing my Julie Anne’s every now and then, often for a sustained length of time. Her blog is http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/ where we have free-er interactions and back and forths.
Anonymous for a reason
I made the correction.
Seems my point was missed. If I was writing on a highly volatile topic like parenting I would appreciate people (who are critiquing) using the exact words I chose to use to describe a task. I’d bet the word ‘whip’ connotes to many images of being tied to a pole and being thrashed with a bull whip. The word ‘hit’ carries ideas of bodily harm and injury.
Regarding your topic of ‘sinful’ – the natural use of pain in some shape or form for one’s benefit is not necessarily always tied to rebellion or self-autonomy. When kids get mobile they can get themselves in situations that would be very dangerous to themselves. Kid proofing the environment is one response. Another is using pain (in some shape or form) to train.
We flicked their hand when they went to pull on a lamp cord. Abuse? Probably to many. Kids are smart and learn quickly. When we visited other people’s homes (that weren’t baby-proofed) they appreciated our youngsters being respectful in not touching their belongings.
The Lord uses pain to train/discipline me – I’m a ‘knucklehead’ sometimes (that was a word my late grandfather liked to use). My chronic illness is a form of his Mercy….I now see things I’ve missed and my thinking/behavior has changed/is changing.
Personally, I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt that I haven’t met and when reading their materials use discernment to separate the wheat from the chaff. From the little I’ve read – Pearl’s have more chaff than wheat, imo, and wouldn’t bother ordering their materials. Ezzo’s had enough wheat that we were blessed by utilizing some of their ideas. Common sense was helpful.
I do not know why this comment appears like this. Even behind the scenes, the block quote is closed yet appears open in the comment.
Do you know that babies have become very sick using Ezzo?
Do you know he was thrown out of his church?
Do you know that the American Academy of Pediatrics have issues warnings about Ezzo? Not for esoterics but due to children becoming ill?
Do you know that Multnomah became so concerned that they returned the publishing rights to the Ezzos?
Do you know that Ezzos educational background is in dispute?
As I said above, I am not an idealogue regarding spanking. On very rare occasions, we spanked our children. As far as I know, our grandchildren are not spanked, and that is fine, too.
The Ezzos are serious and serial abusers of the Scriptures. I cited above their use of Jesus’ agonized cries from the cross being “ignored” by the Father as an example of why parents should ignore their children’s cries. That is very bad exegetically *and* theologically. If I had their book, I would provide other examples, but we interacted quite a lot with young couples and young parents when they were “the thing” going around. It is necessary to withdraw the audience from a tantrum. Not all crying is a tantrum, especially babies.
They’re scheduled feeding fetish is more than ridiculous and ignorant. It is dangerous. During Bible times and in many cultures, babies were nursed when they were hungry, either by the mother or a nurse. Every baby is different. I’ll give two examples from personal experience: one child wanted to nurse every two hours, which I did. Another only wanted to nurse every 4 hours or so. I wasn’t a working mom, so it was not a problem. What if I refused to nurse the first child until the “right” amount of time had elapsed? That child *still* eats at every opportunity and does CrossFit. The four-hour child is similarly fit and eats greater quantities infrequently. So what? My goal was for the kids to be healthy, not for them to follow an eating schedule when they were grown.
It is nowhere instructed in the Bible how much time needs to elapse before you are permitted to lawfully feed your child. The Ezzos made up a rule and sold it for money using the Bible as their justification. Just like a lot of people whom we discuss here. I think there is a reason for that commonality, and I don’t think the Holy Spirit wants his words used that way. Do you think it is OK to misuse the Bible like that?
Just a quick comment lest we make all parents who put babies on a feeding schedule feel somehow guilty and abusive:
I’m no fan of the Pearls or the Ezzos. Let me make that perfectly clear.
One of our children absolutely did not thrive on demand feeding. Turned out her reflux was actually being triggered by too frequent feedings. Her pediatrician suggested watching her desired eating schedule and over a period of several weeks, gradually try waiting an extra 5 minutes before feeding her. During that five minutes she was certainly snuggled, loved, talked to, and comforted. It took about 6 weeks to move her from erratic but roughly every two hour feedings to about 3 hour feedings. Another 6 or so to gradually move her to 4 hour feedings. She thrived on that and is a very healthy adult.
Her daughter was also not doing well at all on demand feeding and HER dr approved trying gradually to get her on a longer feeding schedule. She thrived and is a very healthy preteen today.
I’m not at all suggesting that is good for every infant. I know gold standard is breastfed/demand fed.
What I am saying is that just as there are some babies that do not do well on the breast, or some moms for whom that is just not feasible, there are some babies that do better on a schedule. And indeed, moving from demand feeding very young infants to scheduled feeding of older infants and very young toddlers was common in my grandmother and mother’s days, without harming most of those babies.
Let’s not give fodder and ammunition to another “mommy war.” If demand feeding is working for you and your baby, kudos. If scheduled feeding is working well for you and your baby, kudos. You are not cruel and evil.
And this, I believe is an example of the thinking that results from the Christ crying out on the cross example from the Ezzos. I have a chronic and disabling medical disorder–it is not an illness, but a syndrome that is not well-understood. I don’t know that God afflicted me with the disorder. I do know that he uses my disorder and the effects of the meds I take to humble me. And, believe me, I have a lot more empathy for and understanding of people I formerly misunderstood.
There is an Ezzo-induced flaw in your thinking. You correctly, IMO, observe that God *uses* our pain. You incorrectly, IMO, believe that God *inflicts* our pain to punish us when that may not be the case. Then, from that the conclusion is that we should inflict pain on our children to punish them and the pain will be used to conform them to Christ. Some logical stitches get dropped in that chain of thinking. One of them is that parents are not God. Another is the distinction between allowing pain and using it and inflicting pain and using it.
By all means. I just don’t think that the wheat/chaff metaphor is appropriate in the case of the Ezzos. Chaff is at most a *nuisance that is easily separated from the wheat. A child can do that.
The Ezzos and Pearls and Patriarchs and Undercover Patriarchs are not producing mixtures of chaff and wheat that need to be separated. A metaphor that is more apt is a poisoned well, and the effects of that are not so easily remedied. They have poisoned the community well because, like the Pearls and Patriarchs, their entire philosophies and revenue streams are based on *using and abusing* God’s word and God’s sheep and lambs for their personal gain. They are putting on a God costume and presuming to speak for him while relieving you of the money you think you are giving to God.
@ Dustin Germain:
My recollection is that you left our conversation in a huff because I was not behaving correctly, specifically you were vexed by the interaction. I don’t know why you are moderated, and sometimes my comments get stuck in moderation, as do others’.
Maybe, if the topic of the OP warrants it, you will respond to my challenge to you and other complementarians to show from the text where the equality God grants jointly to the male and female in Genesis 1:26-28 is revoked or modified by God such that the male is always in authority over the female. You might want to start at 1 Timothy 2 or Genesis 2, since most do, and it will save you some time.
I’ve put that challenge out to numerous comps, so I’m not picking on you, and I have not received a reply referencing God’s actual words interpreted using standard grammatical-historical methodology. So far I have received replies which are either ad homs or rank eisegesis. My hypothesis is that the reason for those responses is that no such text(s) exists and that Wayne Grudem and John Piper are the Patriarch Fairies.
This post has nothing to do with “mommy wars.”
It has everything to do with abusive and/or dangerous child rearing tactics ala the Pearls and Ezzos. You got advice from a doctor for your situation. Many people do not and go ahead with the Ezzo stuff which has been roundly condemned by the American Academy of Pediatrics.
Unlike other blogs, we always try to let people know in the comment section when a comment is not approved.
Also, we do sleep and usually have about 6 comments waiting to be approved each morning.
Dee–Good grief, I never said this post was about the mommy wars. I was merely suggesting that people not latch onto this post, as many do so many things, to flame each other in a mommy war.
Part of my ministry is to mothers of small children. It absolutely amazes and sickens me how self righteous we human beings can be, constantly looking for some way to put someone else down and think that puts us up a step.
Even this morning at Bible study, there was a bit of the stay at home moms’ self righteousness toward the employed outside the home moms, and vice versa. And there was quite a bit of fodder for bashing the about to pop mom as to her feeding choice and plan (and I won’t even go there as to which she has chosen. It is simply nobody else’s business but her own.)
So again, do I agree with the Pearls and Ezzos? Absolutely not. Do some children not thrive on the breast, the bottle, demand feeding, or scheduled feeding? Absolutely–even as others thrive.
I don’t want to see us get bogged down in details that may not be truly relevant to the truth that children should be reared with love and limits.
But then, I generally advocate for truth and peace and mercy, rather than looking for who can I flame out now. And some of the comments seemed to be edging toward an attitude of “unless you parent my way you are abusive.”
Don’t need to go there. Need to focus on what is truly abusive.
Well, good golly, why do you do that?! 😉
@ linda: i think the fact that you went to your doctor speaks volumes, and is the real takeaway here.
Well, when Ken (in Germany) posts one of his loooooonnng comments, isn’t that enough to cause anyone to nodd off? …
I didn’t intend criticism of your moderation. On the contrary, I don’t know how you maintain the blog at all while having a life. I was trying to explain that there is no reason for him to think he is being singled out and that others here remark about being in the moderation lounge. It’s impossible to have a totally unmoderated blog, and I think your policy of explaining is helpful.
The question is not demand or scheduled, breast or bottle. The question is what is best for each child, given the various constraints which may exist for children and parents. I think you make a good point about consulting with a doctor or other medical professional. I understand reflux and related issues. And colic. Oy, do I know from colic.
The problem with the Ezzos and Pearls is that they set arbitrary schedules which are seen as essential to godly and good parenting. Obviously, I don’t always communicate what I am thinking very well.
There is a vast difference between saying that a very young baby’s cries of hunger must be ignored so as to put the child on an arbitrary schedule and wearing a 3 year-old as a fashion accessory. Slight exaggeration of extreme attachment parenting, which, btw, is a secular legalistic parenting scheme. In between these extremes, there is much freedom, and we should not judge others’ choices unless children are put at risk for ideological reasons, regardless of the source of the ideology.
Believe me, I am at the front of the anti-competitive parenting parade, bonking all of the parenting absolutists of all stripes with my shiny baton.
Wait, does this mean that you don’t read my comments? Some of us were born with our concision function disabled. We are victims, not perps. TLDR is my monogram.
Oh, I know. I decided to review it for some new readers. I am sorry that you thought it was aimed at you. I promise that it was not.
A few of us can’t turn it on.
I’m not endorsing the Pearls, but I’d gander I could profit from something they have to offer.
Pain wasn’t the only medium of training for our young kids, but was definitely part of the equation. It would have helped to have witnessed/gotten to know another family’s children we respected that weren’t subjected to pain, but to this very day we haven’t come across any. Sounds lame, but it’s the truth.
Heck, I only personally know one other couple that doesn’t subscribe to complimentarianism (and they live 900 miles away), so I could be extremely sheltered. 🙂
Yes, yes, yes, news to me, yes. We were well aware of the unfortunate circumstances that developed from the time Gary was an elder at Grace to his departure to the Carolinas (I think that’s where he ended up). In spite of some legalism and bad theology, we still benefited from their material.
I agree with most of what you wrote and don’t think it’s ok, but still think their materials have something worth-while to offer.
I’m not sure how you arrived at your conclusion based on what little I wrote. I apologize for not being able to chat more since I am currently physically exhausted (long day at work) and am mentally challenged. 🙂
Yeah, and Jim Jones had a nice side as well…
Well, I suppose burning their books might provide a little light and a bit of heat. Other than that, I’ve got nothing when it comes to anything worthwhile from the Ezzo’s books. Oh, just thought of another. The worms in the compost pile would eat their stuff up and produce something worthwhile. So there’s that.
I’ll try the analogy game again. If your child is thirsty, would you give them a glass of cold water that had a single dropper of sewage in it? What? You wouldn’t give that cold glass of water to your thirsty child? But doesn’t the glass contain something really worthwhile? Or is that “benefit” more than offset by the damage of the sewage that is added?
This is why I love to read your comments.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You are probably right, HUG; I may have conflated “Russian” + “atheist” into Communist. Thanks for the correction! 😉
Read the whole book. (I have).
Read their website. (I have).
Listen to the tapes of their Sunday service, (conducted in a chickenhouse in their back yard. (I have).
Then–Read the coroners’ reports on the children whose parents have beaten them to death. The evidence contains at least one tape with Michael Pearl ON THE PHONE urging more beating. (The child was all ready dead).
I know people who were raised by the Pearls’methods. You know what one thing they all have in common? Permanent restraining orders keeping their parents from being in the same place as their children& grandchildren. (One woman has gone so far as to leave the country to keep their kids safe from them).
Ken, you simply don’t know what the bluidy hell you’re talking about, or you wouldn’t defend these monsters.
Dee, actually, the Ezzos have, at last count, been thrown out of THREE separate churches.
In my opinion, the Pearls & the Ezzos are producing nothing but that stuff you step in when you follow too closely to the South end of a Northbound horse.
I apologize to horselovers everywhere for the comparison. Its not fair to horses to put them in that company.
Hey, Ken, howabouts you come over to dinner on Sunday?
I will offer you a tall glass of rat poison, and a platter of 3-day-old fish entrails, with a side of steaming cowpies. How about it???
‘Cause, Ken, that’s what you’re recommending for us to use for child-rearing advice.
I haven’t read enough from Ezzos or the Pearls to make an informed opinion, but your vivid picture reminded me of an amusing comment about another cult.
A reader once compared the attempt to find wisdom in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, to searching for raisins in a manure pile. Sure, it’s possible you’ll find a few, but is it really worth the effort? And even if you find any raisins, will you really want to eat them?
Whether this metaphor applies to the Pearls’ or Ezzos’ writings, I’ll leave to the judgement of those who know them better.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
A cover up is acting to cause others not to report. It is an act that clearly assists the perp to avoid the consequences of the abuse. Unless one is a mandatory reporter, not reporting is different. And, depending on one’s circumstances, may be based on the assumption that another has or is reporting; a mandatory reporter generally is expected to report even if another is believed to be reporting. Besides, in the case getting all the attention, it was reported, and to the proper authority with jurisdiction. In both instances, the person with responsibility to investigate dropped the ball, which is a not infrequent response.
Anonymous for a reason wrote:
That is a legalistic dodge of a moral responsibility. A distinction without a practical difference.
I always read your comments – unfortunately I don’t always get time to reply as quickly as I would like.
Talking of being concise, I have an example of complementarity for you – just for fun, honest! My wife writes in a very convoluted lengthy fashion, whereas I am often over concise (believe it or not). So when we were both studying at the same time, I used to read her essays and cut down the verbiage, and she used to read mine and pad it all out a bit to meet the word count. Perfect team work.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I think I would agree with you there. I cannot begin to understand how anyone could seriously consider smacking very young children as a means of discipline, let alone using an implement. You can feel like it during the terrible two’s when they play up, usually loudly, but there are much better ways of dealing with this. One of which is to not take it too seriously, they are only doing what you did at that age. When I was a child …
If the rod of discipline is ever appropriate in a literal sense, I would have thought it reserved for out of control teenagers who perhaps endanger themselves or others. Some might not even agree with that, and taking into account what is the underlying cause of the bad behaviour could be decisive here.
Verbosity is in the eye of the beholder. 😉
Now, WRT your word-count deficiency, it is always possible nowadays to apply liberal amounts of Font Fudge. Not so much back in the dark ages before Multimate. If chocolate in any form is useful, I say use it.
Seriously, I think the way you work together is a great example of complementarity. If you just look at Genesis *without* “comp” lenses of hierarchy, a beautiful picture of partnership is presented. God gave men and women a general mission that for which God did not specify female tasks and male tasks, except for the obvious sexual differences. Vive le difference! Gramp3’s liberal paraphrase of Adam when he saw Eve after all the animals, is “Now we’re talkin’!”
Unfortunately that is not what the “Comps” see. They see power and authority and rules and roles and on and on and on. Gramp3 is lots more fun than either Grudem or Piper, I’m sure.
general mission for which God did not specify
In Reducto al Biological Machine, I remember the Victorian-era version of Animal Rights Activism, the Anti-Vivisection movement. At the time, scientific belief was that only humans had consciousness; all animals were biological machines whose blind stimulus/response reflexes only SIMULATED having consciousness or awareness or sensation.
When it came to vivisection (dissection while alive, common in biology research of the period), the justification by the scientific community went something like this: “See how the biological machine’s reflex responses produce such a convincing simulation of agony during vivisection. If we didn’t know better, we might think that the animal was actually feeling pain!”
When someone tells you to “chew the meat and spit out the bones”, check to be sure he’s not trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Dagnabbit, HUG, now I can’t get that song out of my head. The foot bone’s connected to ankle bone, etc. Now Hear the Word of the Lord!
What happened to the teaching of making restitution after committing a wrong against another. Why are churches only teaching seek and grant forgiveness but, not teaching to make restitution to those they have harmed? It is not revenge to remind others or challenge others to make restitutions when they have harmed someone.
Many OT examples of restitution for wrongs such as Numbers 5:5-7.
Restitution is a biblical concept and is also found in the New Testament with Zacchaeus in Luke 19.
I believe this blog is calling for biblical restitution on behalf of those who have been harmed. This is not revenge. Heart change and repentance come first then restitution.
Pingback: In Honor of Child Abuse Remembrance - Nyssa's Hobbit Hole