First!! I am excited! Now off to read…

It’s so hard to read these posts, because the (out)rage and anger just make it hard to breathe. What is wrong with these people, and the thousands of sheeple across the world who don’t want to think about it? ARGH

Colin is invested up to his eyeballs in the YRR movement and associated business enterprises. He is not talking about Paterno, IMO. I think he is, again, trying to delegitimize criticism of C.J. by using Paterno as a proxy for C.J. Mohler was all over Paterno’s failure to act on his moral duty, but his business partner C.J. is a victim.

Regarding spanking, the culture of the Reconstructionists like the Wilsons is rooted firmly in Gothardism. Years ago, it wasn’t the magical wooden spatula, but it was the magical wooden spoon. Gothardites we knew kept one in several locations so that it would be readily available to break the will of a child via multiple spankings per day, if necessary.

I’m not a spanking idealogue one way or the other. Damage or injury or emotional abuse is abuse and not acceptable. We reserved spanking for the “capital offenses” of lying to us and disrespectful defiance–sort of like a hard reboot of attitude. I hated it, but we thought it was important to make a distinction between that and everyday issues. For most infractions or corrections, logical consequences and natural consequences worked much better for us.

We cracked up not long ago when we heard our young grandchild apply logical consequence reasoning to a neighbor child who kept throwing her toy over the fence and demanding that our grandchild toss it back over to her. The last time, the toy stayed where she threw it just as she was warned it would if she threw it over the fence again. Ha!

We didn’t have a thing called “timeout” but we did deprive the offending child from an audience while having a tantrum. It seems kids no longer have tantrums. They have meltdowns. Whatever. When the child gained control, they were welcomed back into civil society. Don’t like what’s served for dinner? OK, you’ll enjoy it for breakfast ’cause then it will be cold! Some incidents have become family lore.

We didn’t see discipline in terms of breaking a will, but creating a civilized and mature human being who was respectful and responsible. IMO there is way too much helicopter parenting and obsession over every little thing that Precious Snowflake needs or wants.

Check out Samuel S. Martin’s ebook on spanking; he shares very interesting and little-known background about the instances of use of the rod in the Bible: https://www.facebook.com/byblechyld

He was a very helpful resource as we navigated through our thoughts on discipline (raised by spankers, but along w/ hubby have decided not to spank).

I/we did not completely rule out the possibility that we might spank somebody if we had to, but in fact we did not spank. Did do “time out” and “live with the consequences” and “lost allowance/ lost privilege.” But whapping on a kid? No.

Children do have to learn to obey some things. Like: “Do not run out into the street. Quit trying to drown your brother in the toilet. Don’t ever again even think about filling up the oil tank with water from the garden hose.” And eventually, if necessary, “No, you cannot date some inked up druggie just out of rehab.” But you don’t have to beat on somebody to get those messages across.

Fortunately we got good compliance without spanking, and yes I think that was partly by starting really young. Example: When they were still relatively bitsy, and I got called back to the hospital on some night when my husband was at his hospital doing a case, I would take them with me, put a pad down on the floor and put them on it. They would just lie down and go back to sleep. Because I said so and because they were sleepy and because they got praised for it, as far as I can tell.

To this day, however, they both say they thought that if they did not cooperate there was no guarantee that they would be allowed to live to grow up. Hey, I don’t know. But I believe both that the parents are in control, and that spanking (in my experience) is not necessary. Above all, though, I do think you have to be good to your kids; proactively and intentionally and publicly good enough so that people tell you that you are too good to those kids and that nothing good will come of it. And in return you expect and insist on responsible behavior, “because that is how we do at our house” and because “this is the kind of people that we are.”

And of course you pray a lot and gobble a fair number of Tums and forget there ever was such a thing as a good night’s sleep pretty much.

Now, as adults and parents, my kids do not whap on their kids, are good to their kids, and are getting good cooperation. And my kids like (or seem to) their father and me and can deal with authority whether theirs or somebody else’s. Not saying anybody is perfect, but this one area of life seems to have turned out well.

Here is the other side of that story. Sometimes those night calls would be for a total body scan (single shot AP view of a baby) looking for evidences of multiple prior episodes of abuse bad enough to break bones. They would need a reading right then to call the authorities to come take the baby away from the parents before they could take it home and maybe finished it off. I cannot even tell you, or write in public, or even hint at the rage I feel at that sort of thing. God will have to forgive them if he chooses, but my job was to help the baby and not the abusive parent(s).

Listen world. Quit beating the kids. Quit. Quit. Quit.

I was spanked twice in my whole life. Once was for stealing money (5yo – I knew it was wrong but I caved to peer pressure and then immediately fessed up as soon as I saw my mom), the other I don’t remember. I was swatted once or twice on my (clothed) bottom with a wooden spoon. I’ve found out as an adult that this barely even qualifies as spanking in most American evangelical homes. I suppose I should have grown up to be a gangster or a prostitute or something else horrible like that, what with the “lack of discipline” in my home.

I cannot express how much I wish I had never spanked my children. Did they need to be disciplined for something? Sure, but I wish I had spent my “discipline” time as “discipling time.” Reading these posts struck a chord in my soul. I was so hard on my kids. Thank God my husband discontinued all spanking at age 11 for the kids. Looking back breaks my heart. Looking forward I can only trust the Lord for His goodness and mercy at work in my life and in the lives of my husband and sons.

nmgirl wrote:

I’ve never been a big Penn State fan, but besides winning a lot of football games, what DID JP do for the rest of humanity?

See my comment just above.

FOOTBALL(TM) Justifies Anything.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
What Penn State did to Mike McQueary should not have happened. But there are some unrepentant people sitting about 30 miles from me, in the oh-so-inaptly named “Happy Valley.” Hell, even former pres Graham Spanier is *still* on the payroll, *because he has tenure.*

The most baffling thing to me are the many, many apologists here who think Joepa was some kind of semi-divine being. I hate what Penn State football has become, but it brings $$$$$$$$$$ from affluent alums, and of course, that’s what *really* matters /sarcasm

PSU is very good at academics, but you’d never know it from mass media. I am proud of the school itself and po’d and all kinds of disgusted by many of the top people and their sports empire.

There is a major gap in my understanding of “spanking” as described above. Why in seven hot hells would I want to “break” my child’s willful defiance? And is there such a thing as unwillful defiance? What am I missing here?

You know I helped raise a nephew, I was there, in the background running into the foreground when needed. I never even thought about striking my nephew or any other kid for that matter, even if I had my own. Again another reason I hate God and am an Apostate. He was a great kid and he never would have killed me for my shiny watch when he was 16 months old if he had the strength of an 18 year old like some preachers preach think Paul Washer.

I wont go into my upbringing, I have made peace with it, but it did affect me. What really bothers me is the systematic dogmatism of spanking, it was like some of the sites on wife spanking and the justifications for it. They play the God card alot. Now spanking a baby, I e Maybe one year or less my one response call 911. That would be my response. My nephew turned out really good, I think one of the primary reasons is he was allowed to make his own decisions. I did introduce him to my early faith tradition and I think that gave him some pause, as it does me now. Anyway he has come to peace with his spiritual walk for now.

I do think we cannot attribute to children adult motives or responses, kids are kids, they are not some fallen vile vermin of Satan spawn, they are kids. If you want your kids to be adults, you need to grow up, not them at this point.

I found this post quite troubling.
Firstly, because of the way in which the actions of a (then) dying man are raked over and used to justify a “moral” position by someone who doesn’t know him personally. In this regard I agree with Gram3 that Mr Hansen has other things in mind when writing.
Secondly, Mr Hansen’s interpretation of Scripture seems to be at variance with what the words actually say. For a start 2 Corinthians 2:9 makes absolutely no mention of boasting. It says ” For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything”. He probably meant 2 Corinthians 12:9 which says “But He said to me,’ My grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness’. therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” and then v10, “For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and calamities. for when I am weak, then I am strong”. That is not a justification for continuing in sin, it is a declaration that we should live in the power of Christ, serving the flock of Christ.
Similarly, John is not confessing his sin in Matthew 3:11, he is pointing to Jesus’ greater work. Only David is confessing his sin and Mr Hansen misses the point entirely by talking about composing a treasure in the midst of horrifying circumstances. David is confessing his sin to God who alone can forgive.
Perhaps the worst example is when Mr Hansen says that Jesus did not need to confess any sin but established His moral authority through perfect love and staggering miracles……er, No, Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, who came to seek and to save the lost. The miracles were not a substitute for anything, they were a declaration of His authority to speak and to save. And it is before Him that we live and it is to Him that we shall give an account.

@ Hester:

You may not be a gangster or a prostitute, but you do seem to be somebody who can think for herself. In some segments of christianity that is even worse. Gs and Ps can repent, but thinkers are hopelessly doomed, so some people think.

dee wrote:

I grew up in a family in which my dad was part of a group of Russian/Eastern European immigrants. All of the children that i knew were spanked. often with our fathers’ belts.

My father used his belt on my brothers. I don’t know who he hurt more..my brother or me as I was upstairs with my pillow over my head crying. I was trying to drown out my brothers cries. The memory still haunts me 60 yrs. later.

dee wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if some of these insulated homeschooling/patriarchy communities want to develop compliant kids who become compliant adults. These compliant adults then bow to the will of the pastors/leaders and do what they are told.

That is what I think. But good news, the people who develop robots may soon have something that these people can “adopt” and then they will not have to mess with real people-kids.

What kind of sense does it make to say “God made you but I can break you.” This really crosses some boundaries that quit being misguided and at some point start being evil–defying God himself in his ongoing creativity. This goes way beyond just saying that some behaviors will be required and some will not be tolerated.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

There is a major gap in my understanding of “spanking” as described above. Why in seven hot hells would I want to “break” my child’s willful defiance? And is there such a thing as unwillful defiance? What am I missing here?

There are three times I hit my son, none of them a “spanking” – just a slap, and I am thoroughly ashamed for all of them. All but one of them happened when he was a teenager, one when he was about ten.

I have since apologised to him for these slaps – the apology was very graciously accepted, he added “Well, I was often quite difficult to like then, I know”.

But slapping him was wrong, nevertheless. It shows that as a parent you are either helpless (and it’s never good to act out of frustration, where you don’t know how else to deal with the situation), or a someone who is willing to take out frustrations on weaker people. Why should anyone ever trust someone like that? Why should your kids ever trust you if you regularly spank them?

They won’t.

Nancy wrote:

I think that when people (alleged christians) call child abuse “biblical discipline” they are trying to baptize an idea to make it acceptable.

Yes, they are clothing their sin ( taking out their anger on a much weaker being) in pious language to dress it up as a virtue.

@ dee:
You’re probably right, but they could not complain if the punishment was to receive a dose of what they dish out. Brings out the Old Testament in you!

This thread brought the Eph and Col verses about fathers/parents not provoking their children so they don’t become angry or resentful/embittered. I suppose this means choosing a level and method of discipline where you children will one day thank you for it rather than say what a bully you used to be. I’ve heard very little teaching on this theme in churches I have been in, maybe priorities a bit skewed? More necessary in a society like the UK where discipline of children has largely gone to pot and abuse is endemic. (Cue: Nick.)

@ Arce: but he did NOT report it to the police! You have to understand Sandusky’s tremendous influence via The Second Mile as well.

Reporting the secual assault of a child (or adult) to one’s superiors but NOT to legal authorities helps exactly how? Our state law *allowed* the report to eupetiors to seem as if it was ok to not call the cops. What would you suggest someone should do when they are made aware of a sexual assault?

It seems to me thwt “Don’t rock the boat” was one of the overriding “ideals” in this case, for Patetno and others, as well as for theuniversity’s administration. They priveleged their adhetence to a particular part of the law over getting Sandusky arrested, and over proper reporting of multiple incidents to legal authorities – who might well have done nothing anyway, consideting the high status of the abuser, but still!

Bridget wrote:

You’re missing the chance to beat the sin out of your child before they are old enough to cause real problems . . . (snark)

Because that has worked out so very well in 10,000 years of written human history! 😀
But seriously – I want my children to have willful defiance. Duh. How else will they stand against injustice? How would you describe the prophets in the Bible? Shrinking violets? Pretty sure Jesus was willfully defiant against the “authority figures” he faced – and beat with a whip of cords, as I recall. I think Dee nailed it – the goal is complaint drones who don’t question their religious authorities.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Why in seven hot hells would I want to “break” my child’s willful defiance? And is there such a thing as unwillful defiance? What am I missing here?

You’re not a Control Freak.
That’s what you’re missing here.

“Sometimes I wonder if some of these insulated homeschooling/patriarchy communities want to develop compliant kids who become compliant adults. These compliant adults then bow to the will of the pastors/leaders and do what they are told.”

I think that’s true in at least some cases. They want to make sure of producing ideological clones for the culture wars, so the heathen can eventually be outvoted. Which leads to the other big reason, being quiverfull. When you have a large family, homeschool, etc., it is simply easier to manage everyday logistics when each child has been vigorously trained by force to immediate, cheerful obedience without questioning. I’m sure there are other reasons, but I see those as the big ones.

I taught in Texas as many of you know and coach swung a board at kid’s backside for years now, they still do.
In the 1980s I swung the board two times. Afterwards I was sick to my stomach, and never did it again. I discovered there were all sorts of methods to discipline that work even better than the board.
I often wonder why some of the coaches and asst. principals can’t discover that swinging the board, well, generally doesn’t work for a lot of these kids, and there are other things that work much better…..I think they do it because it is easy, and it is quick….does it work? Well, if it did, why are you swatting the same kid three days later?

@ dee:

Agree with this. For the Greatest Generation, being spanked or even beaten was common. It is a cultural thing, I think. Somebody has said we do what we know. When we know better we do better.

In my experience, parents frequently act out of fear for their children, including how their children will “turn out” so they consult the “experts”. We have spoken out about the Gothard and Pearl and Ezzo philosophy and methods. The parents we knew/know who follow these principles love their children, but they believe the wrong people–people who are profiting off of the parents’ good intentions and promoting dangerous doctrines.

I was spanked as a child. My father typically used either a belt or his hands; my mother typically used a flyswatter or her hands. I lived at home for a couple of years after my mother’s death (I was grown by this time) and I can still recall how the family dog, who outlived my mother, would whine and put his tail between his legs every time I picked up a flyswatter to kill a fly. I had to calmly reassure the dog that I had no intention of hurting him.

I’ve never been married or had children, so the issue of whether to spank has been moot for me. However, I see far too many instances these days of children running wild or otherwise misbehaving, even at church. This leads me to wonder how, or if, they’re being disciplined.

 __

…the ‘heart’ of da child abuse matter, ‘Bad Leadership’?

hmmm…

could b.

(sadface)

Sopy
__

food for thought?

Notez: 
Barbara Kellerman –  “Bad Leadership”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nRZWVTrTWM

—

BMK wrote:

It certainly won’t garner you any love. What it’ll get you is a child that fears you, a child that will express affection for you and appreciation for the way they were raised not because of any real affection, but because of Stockholm Syndrome.

6079 Smith W at the end of Nineteen Eighty-Four.
The last four words of the book?
“HE LOVED BIG BROTHER.”

Liz.R wrote:

Years ago on a American Christian forum, some trolls infiltrated asking about spanking, these lovely naive women never realised that the “spanking” the troll was asking about was sexual in nature. It started off with statements like “my mom spanked me as a child and I loved the discipline as it brought me closer to God” to “How do you spank? I want details so I can check if I have it right before I have children” I hope “Mary” is a troll and not a real woman with a poor little baby.

I remember that. I didn’t see the comments, but warnings went out on our local homeschooling circles that this was happening. There was also someone who was claiming to conduct a telephone survey on disciplinary methods, whose questions on spanking were said to grow more and more detailed as the call went on.

@ Nancy:
Good point. I admit I hadn’t heard baptizing used in that context before.

So if Paterno’s involvement was a “misstep” then obviously CJ Mahaney’s child molestation response at SGM was just a “misstep”, too. That seems to be the message from Colin Hansen. What a sad message to those molested and abused. What cold heartedness and callousness.

Ken wrote:

@ dee:
I suppose this means choosing a level and method of discipline where you children will one day thank you for it rather than say what a bully you used to be. I’ve heard very little teaching on this theme in churches I have been in, maybe priorities a bit skewed? More necessary in a society like the UK where discipline of children has largely gone to pot and abuse is endemic. (Cue: Nick.)

What does this mean? Children are not disciplined, but abuse is common? We have found memories of England, albeit from a long time ago. What is it like there now? What has changed? I have been so wrapped up in my own struggles I have not been paying attention to much more outside our sphere than news headlines.

I grew up in a spanking family, with elm switches used on us.

But bear with me a bit: spanking just. did. not. happen. to smaller children or babies. Nope, and it didn’t happen willy nilly to older ones. You had to have been taught not to do something. You had to have been warned a few times. You had to have been disciplined a few times with time outs or writing sentences, or extra chores, etc.

In short, you had to be in downright outright knowing and willful rebellion.

And then you got your own switch. And got spanked over your clothes. Not physically painful or abusive, but you knew that you knew that you knew you had crossed a line and simply better not cross that line again, or else.

Neither my brother or I ever wanted to know what “else” would have been.

The local school used ping pong paddles over clothing, in much the same scenario.

Of course, many school years could pass with no one spanked, and parents were always called about a spanking.

Sometimes just the threat truly is enough:)

There is a lot of misunderstanding on this site regarding Joe Paterno. In the body of the article you said Paterno did nothing. I hope you will correct this misstatement. Many years before, Sandusky was accused by a victim’s mother of child sexual abuse. The DA did not /could not bring charges because of lack of evidence. Sandusky soon “retired” from Penn State but continued running his charity of “helping” at risk children. Much later a Penn State assistant coach caught Sandusky abusing a child in the Penn State showers. He reported it to Paterno, who within 24 hours reported it to two men: his direct supervisor and the person in charge of campus police. In Pennsylvania college campuses are like their own towns. The police with juristiction for crime committed on campus are the Penn State campus police. Not only did he report it to the police, he reported it to the person in charge of the whole department. These two men ciminally dropped the ball. Paterno never followed up on the case to see if it was progressing and he wished that he had. Paterno is not blameless, everytime he saw Sandusky, he should have been reminded to ask the powers in charge what was up with the investigation. He was not blameless and he admitted it. But Sandusky was not an employee and Paterno trusted the men who were in charge to do the right thing. And he did not witness the crime, he just passed on what was told him when he found it out.

As far as what did Paterno do for Penn State. He was much more than a football coach. He boosted education as much as his team. He contributed millions and help raise millions more the library/school.

Paterno is nothing like CJ Mahaney. Mahaney did worse than nothing. He created an environment where people were actively discouraged to go to the police.

@ Ken:

This thread brought the Eph and Col verses about fathers/parents not provoking their children so they don’t become angry or resentful/embittered. … I’ve heard very little teaching on this theme in churches I have been in, maybe priorities a bit skewed?

Agreed. They comb through the Bible for every other verse about parenting and always, almost without fail, forget about this one completely – probably because it contradicts most/all of the rest of the things they want to teach. The Pearls’ recommended technique of deliberately baiting toddlers/babies with an appealing object, then swatting them on the hand when they try to take it, would seem to be esp. relevant here.

@ Nancy:

Spanking absolutely changed my behavior. In all honesty I wasn’t spanked very often, but its usage corrected behavior immediately. Not that I wouldn’t return to that well at some point in the future, but it was effective in generally causing me to rethink choices. I can honestly say I never once felt “unloved” and always had a clear understanding of exactly what was happening and WHY it was happening. Spanking was never tied to “random” events. It was always in relation to repeated offenses and deliberate behaviors in the face of clear warnings.

When I was about 5 my little sister and I did not get along. She wanted to hang out with me, I did not want her to do so…..I was helping my dad do some sort of project that required a hardware store trip. I guess I had been especially mean to my sister lately and my dad had a very clear talk with me concerning this behavior…and in light of it how I was not supposed to tell my sister that we went to the hardware store without her because it would really hurt her feelings.

Upon our return I IMMEDIATELY sought out my sister and said, “Daddy took me to McDonalds because he loves me and doesn’t love you” A few minutes later my dad tracked me down holding a sobbing sister. When he asked why I disobeyed I calmly stated, “I didn’t tell her we went to the hardware store…..”

I was spanked. And I never did something like that again. Not that I did not have a number of run ins with my sister, but the specific act of trying to break her heart was never repeated.

I’ve heard (somewhere..sometime) that a spanking erases the guilt the child might otherwise have regarding the disobedience or whatever. He/she feels the price has been paid so to speak for the transgression.

I wonder if a different type of discipline doesn’t provide the same.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

6079 Smith W at the end of Nineteen Eighty-Four.
The last four words of the book?
“HE LOVED BIG BROTHER.”

P.S. Years ago, someone told me about the 1984 movie adaptation of Nineteen Eighty-Four. And that the end had been subtly changed. Instead of a broken population unit just waiting to be Disappeared, the movie implied that 6079 Smith W was to be promoted to the Inner Party. As my informant put it, “ONLY WHEN YOU ARE BROKEN TO THE SYSTEM WILL YOU BE ALLOWED TO ADVANCE WITHIN THE SYSTEM.” That that analogy as you will.

Marsha wrote:

Paterno had more power than the administrators. No one was going to fire him! He should have used that power to see that justice was served.

Amen!
And no matter what bad PR it brought on his football program. He lost his real “leadership” moment.

@ Nemo:

Did you know he could have made an anonymous call to CPS? He could have had his wife make the call if he was afraid he would be recognized. How many boys would have been saved from that horror if he had? He was in a position to demand something be done right away.

Infuriating! My former pastor who is second in charge of SGM still supports that evil man CJ!!!

@ Marsha:
Mike McQueary, the assistant coach you’re talking about, was still a graduate student at the time he found Sandusky in the showers with a boy. He wasn’t yet a university employee, though he was a grad assistant. He was so shocked and stunned that he went and talked about it with his father before going to tell Paterno.

I’m not saying it was right of him to not call the police, but i *do* get the shock, the whole deal with Sandusky being a prominent man and the simple fact that if he had called the campus cops, they wouldn’t have done anything. There is a problem re. jurisdictions, since it happened on campus (University Park), and Penn State has its own police force. The ton, State College (which is a separate jurisdiction, even though it surrounds the oldest part of campus and many of the newer parts) is the true civil authority, but calling the town cops might well have dead-ended, since it didn’t happen in their jurisdiction.

Do yiu honestly think anyone would have believed McQueary if he had called the cops? I don’t, because i know that grad asdistants are a dime a dozen, and it would have been his word against Sandusky’s. *Paterno* should have gotten the law involved, and they would have listened to him.

McQueary lost his coaching job w/the university for being hoest, while Jay Paterno (Joe’s son) is still on the coaching staff. As always, the whistleblower got it in the neck, while the famous man’s son is anything but persona non grata.

Sorry for the rant, but i live in the area and one of the young men whom Sandusky abused is from near here, so…

@ Lydia: i suspect CPS would have been thwarted at every turn. The high regard in which The Second Mile, which was operating statewide, is one of the main reasons. Football and the power, influence and money involved is the other.

I think *many* people are culpable, and that *many* people could have done much more. I’m not going to dogpile on McQueary for that reason alone. Going up against powerful people (who run a lot of things locally and who have national influence) is a really hard thing to do, especially when people lokk the other way. Which happened a LOT, or else it would have all stopped a few decades ago.

dee wrote:

brian wrote:
I do think we cannot attribute to children adult motives or responses, kids are kids, they are not some fallen vile vermin of Satan spawn, they are kids
Your nephew is privileged to have you in his life. Thank you for being there for him.
brian wrote:
Again another reason I hate God and am an Apostate.
I want you to know that I am so glad your are commenting here and telling us about things in stupid Christian culture that have caused you to walk away from the faith. It has been my goal for many years to listen to stories like yours and try to become more thoughtful and understanding. If you would ever like to tell more of your story, please let us know. I bet we could learn a lot from you.

Thank you, I have walked away from the evangelical church but not all church, I still go to the older faith communities such as Anglican and EO. It is sort of like this for me, if I did go back to a standard Non Denom Church I have two fears, through my questioning and stance on some historic doctrines I might stumble another and eventually the leadership would have to ask me to leave because of my doctrinal stances.

I may consider writing my story I need to redact so much because of confidentiality as to the type of clients I worked / work with. Take care.

My mother used a metal mesh fly swatter on our bare bottoms when she’d determined we’d done something bad enough. She did this after she’d hit one of us so hard with her bare hand that she broke a blood vessel. Frankly, all the threat of a swatting did to me was turn me into a better liar. I do not remember my father administering any punishment when I was a child, but I think that was due in large part to his very long work hours and the two years he spent working in Los Angeles in the late 1960s (we lived in Northern California then).

That said, and keeping in mind that all swatting did was turn me into a better liar, the threat of being swatted paled in comparison to dealing with my mother’s paranoid schizophrenia. When you’re afraid your mom is going to lose it completely and start waving knives around or try to kill herself, getting swatted is rather a lesser fear. Recently, my younger sibling and I talked about the first psychotic break that got mom locked up in the hospital; I thought he had been too young to remember, but I was wrong. He remembered–heck of a thing to have to deal with at age five. Thankfully one of our family friends unexpectedly came by looking for a quick cup of coffee (mom always had a pot on) and found my mom in an awful state and was able to call for help. But that was a heck of a thing for a child to observe and my brother did. 🙁

@ ken:
England checking in for a reality check: I am actually British, have lived here for most of my life & have worked with British adolescents for the last 20 years, including those with massive behavioural issues, those who’ve been in prison, those pregnant at 14 & I want to give your comments on this thread a fairly big ‘huh?’.I don’t recognise my country from your comments, despite many of your points containing truth. It’s like me saying ‘most Americans are obese’.
If you head to most schools & colleges you will find mostly fine young people, behaving & achieving well. I see those who aren’t, in professional capacity & we have our problems (& by that please understand I don’t mean even the most difficult young people, they are valuable humans who may display problematic behaviour) but it tends to be fewer people with larger problems, many of which are caused by the same mix of parental neglect, substance abuse, parental attitudes, lower social economic status etc. The press makes a field day out of these for the sale of selling papers. We are not yet over-run by fear’ youth like zombies gone wild.
And I grew up in a single parent family, due to alcohol abuse, with a mother over-working as a Nurse (permanent nights anyone?) to bring up her kids…& look at us 3 – a Solicitor who works as an IT guru, a Company Director & a Senior Youth Worker/Youth Team Manager.
Let’s not over-egg this pudding Ken.

K.D. wrote:

…..I think they do it because it is easy, and it is quick….does it work? Well, if it did, why are you swatting the same kid three days later?

Thank you for this very intelligent point.

And I just want to say on this whole subject of the Pearls & hitting babies: if you think hitting a baby is okay then you may well be entirely demonic.

I know several parents who spank their children, and I believe they do it in the best way possible (if there is such a thing) but I can’t stand when they get all preachy about it. As if not spanking means you have no discipline?

I was spanked and although I turned out ok, those are not good memories. My mom used this ruler thing that was a craft I made in VBS to spank. My VBS craft! Even at 8 years old I sensed the irony in that. I can remember one time my dad spanking me clearly out of anger. I think it scared me more than anything, that his instinct in that moment was to hit me.

Now I’m a new mom and can’t comprehend hitting/spanking my daughter, ever. Even though I know she will drive me batty and need “disciplined” in some way, I never EVER want my gut reaction to be to hit. I just want hitting completely off the table from the get go. Does anyone know any Christian resources that are anti-spanking?

@ numo:

I had not even thought of the campus police angle. And I am sure you are right that CPS and others would have been thwarted at every turn. It seems to me Paterno had the gravitas to make sure this was dealt with and chose to pass it off and not see it through. Can you imagine the difference that would have made in sending a message about child molestations?

Kristin:
I was one of those who spanked because I thought it was “biblical”. I’ve since gone back and asked forgiveness from my kids who have totally forgiven me, understand that I was just doing what I thought was best, and we have great relationships. They know how much I love them and they love me.
But now that I’m a Grandma, I want them to have better resources and choices.

These resources have helped me a lot. I know there are lots more, but here are a few to start with:

http://www.littleheartsbooks.com/

Great books on parenting

http://whynottrainachild.com/

Great blog for articles and information

http://whynottrainachild.com/2013/06/22/download-martins-book/

Samuel Martin’s book was a real eye opener for me and he gives it away free

Joe Paterno spent his adult life building his name upon a football empire. He was surprised that his name was tarnished because he decided not to act upon abuse to innocent children? Too bad it never occurred to him that he could have maintained his good name if he had done the right thing.

zooey111 wrote:

What is bitterly ironic about it, is that the Pearls are actually copying Pavlovian behaviourism. Yes, indeed: These people are using the methods of a Communist scientist, & passing it off as “Christian”.

Don’t know about Pavlov being “a Communist scientist”, but he was sure into reducing everything to Stimulus-Response, Stimulus-Response, Stimulus-Response. Not necessarily filtered through Marx so much as through the Age of Reason/Post-Industrial Revolution meme to reduce everything to a mechanical engineering problem.

Not human behavior.
Not even animal behavior.
Reducto al Biological MACHINE.

(off topic)

Concerning Women’s Ordination: Speaking and Teaching
http://willgwitt.org/theology/concerning-womens-ordination-speaking-and-teaching/

Appeal to Paul’s metaphor of “head” (Greek kephalē) to justify the complementarian position of “headship” as authority of men over women represents a misunderstanding of how Paul used that metaphor, and is reading into the text something that is not there.

I couldn’t remember which post it was in the last 3 or 4 where someone was asking about Paul’s use of the word “head” or “headship,” so I’m putting this here. I hope that person sees this.
I also thought the rest of you would find it helpful or interesting.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Both Pavlov and Lenin were influenced by the work of Ivan Sechenow, a physiologist “who maintained that the brain was an electro-mechanical device responding to external stimuli.” (A People’s Tragedy, Orlando Figes p733).
And although Pavlov was an outspoken critic of the revolution, he nevertheless accepted the patronage of Lenin.

dee wrote:

You are accusing us of censoring you. That is baloney. Please go away for about 2 weeks and contemplate whether you will be a polite guest on our blog or if you merely want to stir up trouble senselessly.

Jimmy… Jimmy… I swear dude it’s beyond the pale of reason of how you manage to get yourself $hit-canned from the most tolerant blog in the Christian cyber world.

@ numo:
Oh, so sorry for the typos! Am using my phone, and it shows.

@ Nemo:

Most reports to CPS are based on hersay. Molesters take great care not to have an audience and groom the victims.

@ nmgirl:
At first I was thinking “highest paid public employee in many states!?!”, then I remembered health care isn’t publicly funded. But still, how did we get to a place where we elect people who can’t figure out basic public priorities? My husband always says “the Gauls are not far off”. Our priorities are what the future historians will say was the beginning of our western civilization’s end.

@ dee:
Dee, there wete stories circulating in the press that Paterno didn’t understand what kinds of things go on when an adult man molests a child. This has never been substantiated, and i certainly don’t believe he could have been anything like as naive as that!

Many persist in believing what they want to believe about Paterno. That includes his family’s attempt at debunking the Freeh report by conducting an “investigation” with the express purpose of clearing his name. Didn’t work the way they thought it would, though. To my mind, the thing was a slap in the face to the victims, as well as utterly foolish and pointless.

numo wrote:

i certainly don’t believe he could have been anything like as naive as that!

The article I linked to above seems to allude to Paterno’s naivete – that he lived and breathed only football and watched the Disney channel. It does seem pretty hard to believe.

@ dee:

It is in the public record. And it is why Paterno had limited the offender in what he was allowed to do, but others failed to intervene before the last of the offenses.

@ numo:
I forgot the most important thing re. telling an adult, which is the same excuse used in the article you linked to – that kids make things up.

Nemo wrote:

numo wrote:

@ Nemo:
Can someone call Children and Youth Services based just on hearsay? I do not know the answer. Perhaps someone can investigate this question and get back to us. That would be useful to know.

You absolutely can and depending on your profession are required to if there is even a question. I’m a speech therapist and work with elderly, but am a mandated reporter, meaning I am to report on even suspected potential child abuse, and elder abuse.
I saw a kid absolutely (obnoxiously) covered in bruises at the DMV, went outside, and and called CPS immediately. This was out of humanity in general, but also, if I hadn’t, even not knowing any circumstances, I could lose my license and be prosecuted.
Working at a university, connected to a teaching profession, and if involved in a youth program (I believe he was?), Paterno likely was a mandated reporter. All of my university teachers were, my soccer coach was.
I think pastors, etc…anyone in any kind of leadership role with a kid program connected, especially, should be mandated reporter.
Prosecute a few of those cases may take care of cover ups on the church at least.

numo wrote:

But to get an adult who could do something to believe us if we told them?

If such incidents were reported to law enforcement, then they would be properly investigated wouldn’t they?

@ dee:
At PSU, the campus police are the “real police” with jurisdiction over all crimes that occur on campus. It is that way in many states and localities.

Well if you’re a mandated reporter, reporting to your supervisor does not absolve you of legal responsibility.
Yes, the assistant should have reported it, but also Paterno.
You are supposed to report to your supervisor, for a report and investigation internally, but also to law enforcement, CPS, etc.

Even if he didn’t want to get in trouble with higher ups, he still could have reported it with his name held confidentially. You have to give your name to CPS but it isn’t released unless an investigation concludes and you have to testify.

@ Gram3:

For some reason, I left the Pearls, the Ezzos and Gothardites off the list of Scripture abusers who go on to abuse other people in the name of being Biblical or doing things “God’s Way.”

@ Victorious:
Are you joking? They would have assumed we were making prank calls.

numo wrote:

@ Victorious:
Are you joking? They would have assumed we were making prank calls.

No, I wasn’t joking.

numo wrote:

At my HS, there were several faculty and staff who preyed on kids, girls and boys. All of the students knew about it. But to get an adult who could do something to believe us if we told them? Now, that’s a daunting and almost impossible thing, especially when the people in question have worked so hard to make themselves look like irreproachable role models.

“For Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an angel of light.”

Which is a Bible-language way of saying “Successful Sociopaths (including Sexual Predators) are masters at camouflaging what they are.” Not only do they groom their victims, but they groom third parties as allies to pre-emptively discredit the victim’s testimony should they tattle.

Haitch wrote:

The article I linked to above seems to allude to Paterno’s naivete – that he lived and breathed only football and watched the Disney channel. It does seem pretty hard to believe.

Hard to believe, but not impossible.
But personally, very very unlikely.

I’ve encountered fanboys who ARE that tunnel-visioned, but — this is important — none of them would be functional enough outside their obsession to climb into a position like JoePa’s. And claiming such naivete WOULD also be an obvious defense for absolving someone of all responsibility after-the-fact — better be thought stupid than liable. As Johann Banner’s Sgt Schultz put it, “I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”

Lydia wrote:

Off topic
http://sbcvoices.com/do-you-desire-repentance-or-revenge/
Jim G has commended/defended TWW on the Jared Moore blog post.

Again, I think this is not off-topic but yet another illustration of the desire of some to control others, whether is it others’ thoughts, actions, speech, if the others are arrogant enough to disagree with the anointed gatekeepers.

Jared resorts to the usual passive-aggressive tactic just like Joe Carter did in his piece “Stop Slandering Christ’s Bride.” They do precisely what they accuse others of. Just like the TgC and T4g guys, they explain everything by saying, “Shut up.”

Funny how they don’t think it is slanderous to accuse all women of being usurpers or more easily deceived. They are the rulemakers, and they want to be the enforcers, too. After all, they have declared they have the keys to the kingdom.

If Jared or David or the others were making a principled point, then they would give examples of the slander and suggest an alternative way of addressing it. They need to get another playbook, because they are so transparent in their tactics.

I wonder if any of them has ever achieved anything of substance in the real world. Or if the entirety of their identity is wrapped up in the church bubble they want to rule, thereby making themselves significant. In the real world, accountability is a thing, though my experience is that it is not a thing in churches–the place where one should expect to find it.

In that thread, Jared and his defenders demonstrate the nearly universal refusal by the YRR to offer a substantive response to a substantive challenge. At least that has been my personal experience in the church and in interactions here, with the exception of Ken and one other whose name I unfortunately cannot recall. The typical response is condescension, refusal to engage, or ad hom. Jared’s entire post was an ad hom, since he provided no evidence, even when asked to do so.

Double standards as usual. Along with the the usual impersonation of animatronic-level reasoning.

numo wrote:

Are you joking? They would have assumed we were making prank calls.

Why do you think there are thousands of untested rape kits in police departments all across the country? No one wants to spend the money. You don’t get Fed dollars to investigate rape and child abuse cases, only drug crimes.

Muff Potter wrote:

Jimmy… Jimmy… I swear dude it’s beyond the pale of reason of how you manage to get yourself $hit-canned from the most tolerant blog in the Christian cyber world.

I propose a new TWW cocktail, “The Jim Sec, on ice”. Triple stirred, but not shaken.

@ Victorious:
It was the 70s, and this stuff was not discussed in public. The offenders had insinuated themselves into positions of trust at my school we would not have had anyone to back us up, but the offenders had all kinds of people in their corner.

Being a teenager can bevery hard sometimes. I was not preyed on, and i thank God while also feeling very sad for those who were.

@ dee:
Very much agreed, Dee.

@ Gram3:
I claim the right to be “First!” in engaging with Jared. But I did it in a general way to make a specific point. The person who went in ” all guns blazing” was left with a fair amount of “egg on his face” and didn’t do any of the “discernment blogs” any favours.

Calvinist Janeway wrote:

I spanked my little girl last night–for jumping on top of her baby sister over, and over, and over again, even while I was holding her. . She’s not quite 3, very hyperactive (plus rampant insomnia) and the most joyous, giggly little thing I’ve ever seen. It broke my heart. The ONLY reason I did was because she would not believe that she was hurting her sister. My little sunshine laid on the couch after the spanking and cried her eyes out. It’s better than dealing w/ a baby’s broken neck–but THAT is what it takes to get me to spank now. Not a smart mouth. :(.

And the friends I have who ever spank would only ever do it in these circumstances too, where reasoning is not working & kids are getting hurt. You sound like a good Mum 🙂

The responses to the Paterno situation here bother me. First of all, he reported what he was told to a proper authority. Second, not reporting is not the same as engaging in a cover up.

What the proper authority did or did not do is the problem, not what Paterno did or did not do.

I regularly deal with situations in which a report of physical or possible sexual abuse is made to the proper agency. Sometimes the agency is really vigorous in pursuing the matter. Other times you wonder if they understand the language. Then they will suddenly, and without advance notice to anyone, close a case and refuse to discuss it further, even with the people charged with carrying out a protection plan and who are being bullied by possible perpetrators. And any complaint about abuse at an “approved foster care home” is treated as a wild rumor and not investigated until irrefutable proof is presented. And the reporter is investigated instead. There is a lot that needs attention in the state agencies charged with protecting children from abuse.

Gavin White wrote:

@ Gram3:
I claim the right to be “First!” in engaging with Jared. But I did it in a general way to make a specific point. The person who went in ” all guns blazing” was left with a fair amount of “egg on his face” and didn’t do any of the “discernment blogs” any favours.

I don’t understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? Thanks for addressing him.

@ dee:

Moore is about politics, imo. Most of all he is loyal to Mohler. Years ago I read his dissertation/book. What a mess.

I await your post and Gavin’s reply to my comment. I don’t do twitter, so I’m frequently clueless.

@ Gram3:
I’m not sure I know which part of what I said you didn’t understand. Was it on the other blog or here? If it was the other blog, I thought it was quite straightforward. Jared appeared to be making a general point about motives generally – are you seeking repentance or revenge? – but then revealed the real target he was aiming at, namely the so-called ” discernment blogs”, and I think, specifically, TWW. I challenged him about it and he clarified his position, making a distinction between those blogs which dealt in facts and those which dealt in hearsay and innuendo. I thanked him for doing so and told him that I agreed with the distinction and the different consequences which followed on. I then pointed out that, nevertheless, the churches should seek the welfare of the victims and ensure that justice is done either in the church courts or the civil courts.
The post was picked up on the SBCVoices blog and someone fired off a number of rounds at Jared, mentioning specifically the TWW and its authors. He then replied to it and there followed a heated exchange which ended with the commenter apologising and withdrawing.

None of it was necessary and it has caused negative publicity for “discernment blogs”, particularly this one.

If I could just comment on one other thing about this current post here. The focus was on an article written by Collin Hansen but a good number of comments have focused on the late Mr Paterno and whether he did enough, or not enough, was culpable or complicit and the commenters have felt free to offer their opinion on the man and to discount the steps that he did take to deal with the situation. This is the very point that Jared was making about motives. Can you not see that? The focus should have remained on what Collin Hansen wrote, not on the example (Mr Paterno) he gave. By focusing on the latter, some of the comments made may have proven unnecessarily hurtful and distressing to his family.

Gavin White wrote:

a good number of comments have focused on the late Mr Paterno and whether he did enough, or not enough, was culpable or complicit and the commenters have felt free to offer their opinion on the man and to discount the steps that he did take to deal with the situation. This is the very point that Jared was making about motives. Can you not see that?

The greater problem which no one in the YRR has been unwilling to acknowledge is that their credibility is shot with anyone who tries to maintain consistent standards which are applied without respect of person.

When their main M.O., which I have experienced very personally and face-to-face, is “Shut up and go away” when confronted with any wrongdoing among their number, then they will continue to be the topic of “discernment blogs” or “discernment divas” or any other pejorative terms they dream up to deflect from the real issues.

When they stop curating their comments and subject themselves to some accountability to the community into which they speak, then they will have some standing to criticize “the blogs.” When Colin Hansen or Joe Carter or any of the other Approved Voices calls these men to repentance, then it will be reasonable to believe their motives are pure. Until then, they will continue to be clanging cybals.

I will re-read the posts and comments in light of what you have written here. Thanks for responding. As I said, I do not use Twitter and so do not “get” what is being discussed.

Gram3 wrote:

unwilling to acknowledge

Should be “willing to acknowledge.”

Hi Gavin and Dee,

I’m the one who had the exchange with Jared Moore. I’ve challenged both Dave Miller and Ed Stetzer on that blog concerning the same tactic – attacking specific people using vague and impersonal language. It’s evidently becoming common practice in Christian blogdom – being accusatory while still holding to plausible deniability. I had read TWW earlier in the day and saw that Jared had tweeted Dee concerning the title of his blog post. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Moore was accusing TWW of sin and slander, all the while couching his accusations in vague language and Bible verses. I challenged Jared to lay his cards on the table, “man up” (in my words), and tell the world about whom he was writing as he had already told Dee. I personally think Christians should be above such shenanigans. If TWW is committing slander (and I don’t think you are), then Moore should courageous enough to say so without hiding behind ambiguity. I think it is manipulative and deceptive to vaguely and generally accuse of sin when one has specific people in mind.

I caught a lot of ire from Dave Miller over it. I think he is employing a double standard, and told him so. Why is it okay for Jared Moore to accuse TWW of committing slander in an offhand way (without a lick of hard evidence, mind you), and not okay for me to challenge Moore to be honest enough to identify his accused, when I have the evidence for what he is doing? To make matters worse, Jared had a handful of people in mind and said so in a reply, fully incriminating himself as to his motives and target audience.

I can only surmise that I exposed a manipulation and marginalization tactic that folks don’t want exposed. That’s my takeaway, anyway. There was nothing left to say there. I was in unfriendly territory over the issue, and keeping up the dialog would have been fruitless. I offer my apologies to the Deebs. I’m sorry if I caused you negative publicity. I was trying to keep Moore from backhandedly soiling your name and the work you are doing.

Jim G.

I was spanked as a child (baby boomer) because that was what parents did. I wasn’t ever beaten, either. However, as a mandated reporter for both my school and church, I have come to the conclusion that there are better responses to children than spanking. The 10 or so cases of abuse I have reported over the years have not been perpetrated by serial sadists, but by parents who had no other method to deal with a difficult, out of control child. All they knew was to beat it out of the child, just like their parents had done to them. With proper counseling and child-rearing principles, most of these cases had positive outcomes of keeping the child in the home. I am currently teaching one of them right now.

As to all things Penn State, I think the current brouhaha in football over whether or not it is okay to play football while you have been accused of domestic violence reaffirms why I am so constantly turned off by professional sports–it’s all about the money. I don’t care how great an athlete you are-creepy sexual perverts need to be locked up, and husbands who beat their wives need to be held responsible, too.

Gavin White wrote:

The post was picked up on the SBCVoices blog and someone fired off a number of rounds at Jared, mentioning specifically the TWW and its authors. He then replied to it and there followed a heated exchange which ended with the commenter apologising and withdrawing.

OK, I went back and read Jared’s post on his blog with your comments, and that is something I should have done in the first place. I don’t understand how to reconcile those comments with the one I quoted above. Jared linked to the post on Driscoll in Haiti as an example of unfounded speculation. What is specific about that? Did the events not unfold as reported at TWW? Are we not allowed to draw reasonable inferences from the available evidence? If not, then we also need to abolish our justice system because that’s exactly what happens.

It’s really difficult to grant these guys much charity when they have shown their agenda so many times. It’s especially difficult when one is female and it is drummed into us by these guys that women are universally rebellious and want to overthrow authority. But they feel not obligation to prove such. Power is what they are about, not repentance.

It would have been helpful to the point of the posts by both Hansen and Jared if they had pointed to even *one* example of where actual repentance by one of their number resulted in a desire for revenge by any of the “discernment blogs.” They are just putting out a straw man hoping that no one will notice. So, until they start leading by examples of repentance, it is reasonable to conclude that they are just blowing smoke of the “Shut up, woman” variety with which all women are familiar.

dee wrote:

Moore, and all of the other gospel™ boys would do well to review it. They sound like a bunch of thin skinned third graders who only fool people who trust *Christian leaders* without question.

This is one of the things I find so curious. Except I would say that they sound like insecure 12 year-old boys, having had considerable experience with those. They bluster on as long as they can control the environment. But if you challenge them, they run away and call you names instead of answering like a mature adult would respond.

As for offering grace when repentance is offered, let me just recall the incident with J.D. Hall. I offered him grace, but it does not seem to have made a difference. So, now I think he was trying to do damage control. Dustin came here all blustery, but ran away when he couldn’t control the means of communication.

It’s as if all the talk of manliness is a mask to cover up what they suspect is missing. Bullying others verbally will not create a sense of maturity or manliness. Without control of the communication channels and without having double standards, they have nothing. It would be far better for all if they would consider what constitutes real maturity and manliness.

dee wrote:

This discernment blog moniker is all a pile of dog poop.

I’d reckon many see it as the EBI (evangelical bureau of investigation) and come here to see who’s made it on the “Top Ten Most Wanted” list, though Limbaugh would probably give you the EIB award (excellence in blogging).

dee wrote:

I am still debating whether or not I should discuss what happened on Twitter and his article. All it will do is call attention to him and embolden him to attempt, once again, to accuse TWW of all sorts of slander, etc.

They are going to accuse you and the commenters here, regardless of what you write or don’t write. The facts don’t matter. The narrative matters. Their narrative is that no one is permitted to critique them, and most especially no one who is female. They don’t like it when their narrative is challenged with facts. Facts which are brought into evidence by females do not count as real facts. I think that is why Jared declined to specify what was speculative in TWW post about Driscoll and Haiti. He can’t say what his real reasons are, so he must resort to the usual passive-aggressive tactic.

The ONLY reason I linked to the SBCV article here was because it is very rare for a man to actually stand up to them in comments and tell it like it is. I thank Jim G for saying what I would have liked to say there years ago but get moderated, drowned out, etc. One just learns to expect it there. Most don’t even try anymore. And I totally agree with Dee about Jared. Best to steer clear if one does not want to get sucked into totally irrational argumentation tactics.

Some of us tried to warn SBCV concerning Driscoll (they constantly praised him)
years back but were constantly spanked or told: But he preaches the Gospel and saying anything about him is just trying to cause trouble. Typical YRR speak.

Jim G–Thanks. These blanket, vague accusations/rebukes have gotten out of hand. They are simply a way of control and plausible deniability at the same time. Very cowardly.

In the late ’50s, early ’60s, when I was in Jr. High, paddling by teachers was allowed (it was downgraded and then removed shortly thereafter). We had a choral music teacher who was about 5’4″ in high heels, less than 120 lbs, and as cute as she could be. When one of us guys would act up, she would get the paddle, take us out to the hallway and give us a whack. Because we laughed at her whacks, she would back up, take off her shoes, and get a running start. We timed it and flattened out about the time she got to us with her big swing. And she would go on down the hall, spinning in her stocking feet on the waxed terrazo. Needless to say, after a couple of those, she recruited another teacher to do the paddling!

@ Anonymous for a reason:

I re-read what I wrote and realize that I used the words “same thing” regarding Paterno and Mahaney. I had in mind the same thing with respect to the matter at hand, i.e. child abuse, and not that the situations were identical, though I understand how my language was clumsy and imprecise. I think Mahaney had a far greater responsibility to report, and I lack the vocabulary to describe how he treated the children and their parents.

I apologize for being unclear about that and take your point.

Anonymous for a reason wrote:

Actually, Paterno reported to someone above him, meeting at least the requirement that he report, and it was to the chief of the local police force (campus police, but still the one with authority).

How well trained are they in investigating sexual abuse by teachers and faculty? Do they receive exactly the same kind of training as non-campus police? And why should their jurisdiction preclude also calling CPS or someone else with perhaps more expertise?

@ Serving Kids In Japan:

There are both formal and informal rules regarding the hierarchy in a major university. It would not have been inappropriate for Paterno to have called CPS. BTW, it would have been very appropriate for the graduate assistant or his father to have made that call, or a call to the police, but no one is hanging either of them out to dry for not making such a report.

What the training of the PSU police force covers — I do not know. But I do know that at most state universities, the campus police force has the first and primary jurisdiction for investigation and enforcement of the law, and other agencies generally respect that. There are often agreements regarding specific crimes and circumstances, between the campus police, state police, county sheriff, etc. An example: If a student resident on-campus has committed a crime off campus or discovered by an off-campus force, the campus police will be informed and will be present for the arrest by the other agency, in almost every instance. Most large campus police forces on state university campuses have full police power, just like city police in a mid-sized city.

Gram3 wrote:

First, females who comment on *their* blogs are deceived and rebellious and stepping outside the designated female role.

Do you mean that they read my comment and assumed that I’m female? Heh, heh. I get that a lot, for some reason, even though I’m a 40-year-old man.

Go figure.

@ Gram3:
Thank you. That means a lot to me.

Kristin wrote:

I know several parents who spank their children, and I believe they do it in the best way possible (if there is such a thing) but I can’t stand when they get all preachy about it. As if not spanking means you have no discipline?

I was spanked and although I turned out ok, those are not good memories. My mom used this ruler thing that was a craft I made in VBS to spank. My VBS craft! Even at 8 years old I sensed the irony in that. I can remember one time my dad spanking me clearly out of anger. I think it scared me more than anything, that his instinct in that moment was to hit me.

Now I’m a new mom and can’t comprehend hitting/spanking my daughter, ever. Even though I know she will drive me batty and need “disciplined” in some way, I never EVER want my gut reaction to be to hit. I just want hitting completely off the table from the get go. Does anyone know any Christian resources that are anti-spanking?

Pastor Crystal Lutton has excellent resources; they are referenced on Why Not Train A Child. (So are a bunch of other good things!)

Hmm…my thoughts on spanking.

First, I was raised to believe that not spanking showed a lack of love and that only ‘liberal heathen’ (or ‘Philistines’ or whatever my mother’s pejorative of the day was) thought that spanking was abusive. I was also taught that there was a difference between ‘spanking’ and ‘beating’ and that spanking was okay and beating was not. Actually, on a fairly regular basis, I was taught what abuse was by being forced to read (or have read to me) horrific stories of abuse (locking in the basement in the dark for days, chained to the bed, etc.) starting as early as 5 or 6 years old.

Within that framework, I was whipped with a leather or vinyl belt starting as part of my potty training (or maybe sooner, I’m not sure). Here’s the thing. The only thing those whippings ever did was scare me, humiliate me, and create resentment. Did they modify behavior? Yes. Did they train my heart? Unfortunately, yes, to a degree. They trained me to fear and resent and mistrust authority. I still fight that nearly 50 years later. They also trained me to hide and stuff my emotions and lie about how I felt. When my parents told me to stop crying or they would give me something to cry about, I knew they would make good on that.

So I think from the time I was about 10 until I was in my late 30s, I didn’t cry more than a handful of time. I know by the time I was in college, I had stopped crying and when a situation arose that would naturally create emotions that would be accompanied by tears, it was a replaced by a cold, sad sort of despair inside with a total blank on the outside. That can be a very frightening place to be.

I remember that last time either of my parents tried to whip me with a belt, I was 14 and my father tried. I do not remember in any way why he was spanking me. But I remember vividly fighting back for the first time. I think it scared him and neither of them ever tried again.

My opinion now? Spanking can too easily cross the line into abuse. There is no way around the fact that it is one big person hitting a much smaller person. And if the anger flares and the spanking slips into a beating, there is no way on earth to take that back.

It is also my opinion that my parents cloaked their abuses in religious beliefs and hid them by highlighting horrible abuse – the concept being, ‘this child has it so much worse than you. They are abused. How dare you compare the whipping you deserve to this horrible thing that was done to this other child. That is abuse, what you experienced is not. Aren’t you glad we don’t abuse you like that?

No, I am not a fan of spanking. And spanking an infant is just plain
power/control freak evil, in my opinion.

@ Bridget:

Oops, I must have missed that while I was trying to sort out Jared at his site with Gavin’s comments and Jared at SBCV and the Jim’s and Dave’s comments there plus Hansen’s post. I guess great minds *can* be female.

@ Gram3:

Absolutely!! 🙂

I cannot believe that you do not get the facts. IT WAS REPORTED to an officer of the law who supervised the police that had both jurisdiction and authority. In most states, CPS does not have had either, unless there was a child making an outcry or an identified child victim who can be protected. As I noted earlier:

“In most states, CPS does not have power to arrest, and their investigation power is limited. Thus, if CPS had been called and no one knew the name of the child, it is likely that CPS would have called the campus police and referred the matter to them! That would be true in the two large states where I have some experience with this kind of thing.”

Had CPS been called, the matter would have been referred to the person to whom Paterno reported! The issue in the case is that that person,the head of that police department, decided not to do anything about the matter. That is where the breakdown occurred.

In a matter with which I am familiar, it took almost a full month, with multiple calls to CPS by agents for a parent of a child, to get an investigation started about the reported threat of sexual abuse of a child by an older child on the child’s next visit to the home of the non-custodial parent, during which time the child was scheduled for two weekend visits. Reporting to CPS is only effective if you can name the child, ID the likely perp, or the abuse has already occurred. Their job is protecting a child, not prosecuting the perp.

Ken wrote:

In all fairness to the Pearls – the website you referenced “Heart of Wisdom” unfortunately went and sensationalized the terminology the Pearls actually used in the snips they provided.

Fairness? It is just Plain Wrong to hurt a baby and there is no holy god (small ‘g’ intentional) or holy book that will ever make it right.

@ dee:

Despicable doesn’t touch what the Pearls teach. And the Ezzos before them. Anybody remember the Ezzos using the example of the Father letting the Son cry out on the cross for their childrearing propaganda? I will say that I’m confident they all have significant personal knowledge of total depravity, their favorite doctrine.

@ LInn:

I did not write that comment that you attribute to me.

Gram, I left here because I hate being moderated and never knowing when my posts and responses go through, or even if they will at all. If you wish to interact with me, I do swing my Julie Anne’s every now and then, often for a sustained length of time. Her blog is http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/ where we have free-er interactions and back and forths.

LInn wrote:

Babies scream because they are acting like babies, not because they are being “sinful.”

Seems my point was missed. If I was writing on a highly volatile topic like parenting I would appreciate people (who are critiquing) using the exact words I chose to use to describe a task. I’d bet the word ‘whip’ connotes to many images of being tied to a pole and being thrashed with a bull whip. The word ‘hit’ carries ideas of bodily harm and injury.

Regarding your topic of ‘sinful’ – the natural use of pain in some shape or form for one’s benefit is not necessarily always tied to rebellion or self-autonomy. When kids get mobile they can get themselves in situations that would be very dangerous to themselves. Kid proofing the environment is one response. Another is using pain (in some shape or form) to train.

We flicked their hand when they went to pull on a lamp cord. Abuse? Probably to many. Kids are smart and learn quickly. When we visited other people’s homes (that weren’t baby-proofed) they appreciated our youngsters being respectful in not touching their belongings.

The Lord uses pain to train/discipline me – I’m a ‘knucklehead’ sometimes (that was a word my late grandfather liked to use). My chronic illness is a form of his Mercy….I now see things I’ve missed and my thinking/behavior has changed/is changing.

Just a quick comment lest we make all parents who put babies on a feeding schedule feel somehow guilty and abusive:

I’m no fan of the Pearls or the Ezzos. Let me make that perfectly clear.

One of our children absolutely did not thrive on demand feeding. Turned out her reflux was actually being triggered by too frequent feedings. Her pediatrician suggested watching her desired eating schedule and over a period of several weeks, gradually try waiting an extra 5 minutes before feeding her. During that five minutes she was certainly snuggled, loved, talked to, and comforted. It took about 6 weeks to move her from erratic but roughly every two hour feedings to about 3 hour feedings. Another 6 or so to gradually move her to 4 hour feedings. She thrived on that and is a very healthy adult.

Her daughter was also not doing well at all on demand feeding and HER dr approved trying gradually to get her on a longer feeding schedule. She thrived and is a very healthy preteen today.

I’m not at all suggesting that is good for every infant. I know gold standard is breastfed/demand fed.

What I am saying is that just as there are some babies that do not do well on the breast, or some moms for whom that is just not feasible, there are some babies that do better on a schedule. And indeed, moving from demand feeding very young infants to scheduled feeding of older infants and very young toddlers was common in my grandmother and mother’s days, without harming most of those babies.

Let’s not give fodder and ammunition to another “mommy war.” If demand feeding is working for you and your baby, kudos. If scheduled feeding is working well for you and your baby, kudos. You are not cruel and evil.

Ken wrote:

use discernment to separate the wheat from the chaff.

By all means. I just don’t think that the wheat/chaff metaphor is appropriate in the case of the Ezzos. Chaff is at most a *nuisance that is easily separated from the wheat. A child can do that.

The Ezzos and Pearls and Patriarchs and Undercover Patriarchs are not producing mixtures of chaff and wheat that need to be separated. A metaphor that is more apt is a poisoned well, and the effects of that are not so easily remedied. They have poisoned the community well because, like the Pearls and Patriarchs, their entire philosophies and revenue streams are based on *using and abusing* God’s word and God’s sheep and lambs for their personal gain. They are putting on a God costume and presuming to speak for him while relieving you of the money you think you are giving to God.

Dee–Good grief, I never said this post was about the mommy wars. I was merely suggesting that people not latch onto this post, as many do so many things, to flame each other in a mommy war.

Part of my ministry is to mothers of small children. It absolutely amazes and sickens me how self righteous we human beings can be, constantly looking for some way to put someone else down and think that puts us up a step.

Even this morning at Bible study, there was a bit of the stay at home moms’ self righteousness toward the employed outside the home moms, and vice versa. And there was quite a bit of fodder for bashing the about to pop mom as to her feeding choice and plan (and I won’t even go there as to which she has chosen. It is simply nobody else’s business but her own.)

So again, do I agree with the Pearls and Ezzos? Absolutely not. Do some children not thrive on the breast, the bottle, demand feeding, or scheduled feeding? Absolutely–even as others thrive.

I don’t want to see us get bogged down in details that may not be truly relevant to the truth that children should be reared with love and limits.

But then, I generally advocate for truth and peace and mercy, rather than looking for who can I flame out now. And some of the comments seemed to be edging toward an attitude of “unless you parent my way you are abusive.”

Don’t need to go there. Need to focus on what is truly abusive.

@ linda: i think the fact that you went to your doctor speaks volumes, and is the real takeaway here.

dee wrote:

Gram3 wrote:
I don’t know why you are moderated, and sometimes my comments get stuck in moderation, as do others’.
Unlike other blogs, we always try to let people know in the comment section when a comment is not approved.
Also, we do sleep and usually have about 6 comments waiting to be approved each morning.

I didn’t intend criticism of your moderation. On the contrary, I don’t know how you maintain the blog at all while having a life. I was trying to explain that there is no reason for him to think he is being singled out and that others here remark about being in the moderation lounge. It’s impossible to have a totally unmoderated blog, and I think your policy of explaining is helpful.

Ken wrote:

@ Bridget:
Well, when Ken (in Germany) posts one of his loooooonnng comments, isn’t that enough to cause anyone to nodd off? …

Wait, does this mean that you don’t read my comments? Some of us were born with our concision function disabled. We are victims, not perps. TLDR is my monogram.

Gram3 wrote:

Some of us were born with our concision function disabled.

A few of us can’t turn it on.

dee wrote:

Do you feel that “providing pain” is the only way that your children can get to this point? My kids were also thought of as respectful and we did not use pain.

I’m not endorsing the Pearls, but I’d gander I could profit from something they have to offer.

Pain wasn’t the only medium of training for our young kids, but was definitely part of the equation. It would have helped to have witnessed/gotten to know another family’s children we respected that weren’t subjected to pain, but to this very day we haven’t come across any. Sounds lame, but it’s the truth.

Heck, I only personally know one other couple that doesn’t subscribe to complimentarianism (and they live 900 miles away), so I could be extremely sheltered. 🙂

Gram3 wrote:

Do you think it is OK to misuse the Bible like that?

I agree with most of what you wrote and don’t think it’s ok, but still think their materials have something worth-while to offer.

Ken wrote:

Dee said ” For the purposes of this post, I am focusing on the abusive aspects of spanking as exemplified by the Pearl method. Here is a link to a few posts we wrote on this. If you read these posts, you will see that the Pearls believe in such things as whipping babies if they start screaming.

they recommend whipping a 7 month old for screaming.”

In all fairness to the Pearls – the website you referenced “Heart of Wisdom” unfortunately went and sensationalized the terminology the Pearls actually used in the snips they provided.

Terms Pearls used: little spats with (small 12″) switches, spank, switch, licks.

Heart of Wisdom’s terms to describe Pearl’s: whipping, hitting

Abuse is indicative in the terms H of W uses.

Baloney.
Read the whole book. (I have).
Read their website. (I have).
Listen to the tapes of their Sunday service, (conducted in a chickenhouse in their back yard. (I have).

Then–Read the coroners’ reports on the children whose parents have beaten them to death. The evidence contains at least one tape with Michael Pearl ON THE PHONE urging more beating. (The child was all ready dead).
I know people who were raised by the Pearls’methods. You know what one thing they all have in common? Permanent restraining orders keeping their parents from being in the same place as their children& grandchildren. (One woman has gone so far as to leave the country to keep their kids safe from them).

Ken, you simply don’t know what the bluidy hell you’re talking about, or you wouldn’t defend these monsters.

Gram3 wrote:

The Ezzos and Pearls and Patriarchs and Undercover Patriarchs are not producing mixtures of chaff and wheat that need to be separated.

In my opinion, the Pearls & the Ezzos are producing nothing but that stuff you step in when you follow too closely to the South end of a Northbound horse.

I apologize to horselovers everywhere for the comparison. Its not fair to horses to put them in that company.

zooey111 wrote:

In my opinion, the Pearls & the Ezzos are producing nothing but that stuff you step in when you follow too closely to the South end of a Northbound horse.

I haven’t read enough from Ezzos or the Pearls to make an informed opinion, but your vivid picture reminded me of an amusing comment about another cult.

A reader once compared the attempt to find wisdom in the writings of L. Ron Hubbard, to searching for raisins in a manure pile. Sure, it’s possible you’ll find a few, but is it really worth the effort? And even if you find any raisins, will you really want to eat them?

Whether this metaphor applies to the Pearls’ or Ezzos’ writings, I’ll leave to the judgement of those who know them better.

A cover up is acting to cause others not to report. It is an act that clearly assists the perp to avoid the consequences of the abuse. Unless one is a mandatory reporter, not reporting is different. And, depending on one’s circumstances, may be based on the assumption that another has or is reporting; a mandatory reporter generally is expected to report even if another is believed to be reporting. Besides, in the case getting all the attention, it was reported, and to the proper authority with jurisdiction. In both instances, the person with responsibility to investigate dropped the ball, which is a not infrequent response.

Gram3 wrote:

Wait, does this mean that you don’t read my comments? Some of us were born with our concision function disabled.

I always read your comments – unfortunately I don’t always get time to reply as quickly as I would like.

Talking of being concise, I have an example of complementarity for you – just for fun, honest! My wife writes in a very convoluted lengthy fashion, whereas I am often over concise (believe it or not). So when we were both studying at the same time, I used to read her essays and cut down the verbiage, and she used to read mine and pad it all out a bit to meet the word count. Perfect team work.

Ken wrote:

I used to read her essays and cut down the verbiage, and she used to read mine and pad it all out a bit to meet the word count. Perfect team work.

Verbosity is in the eye of the beholder. 😉

Now, WRT your word-count deficiency, it is always possible nowadays to apply liberal amounts of Font Fudge. Not so much back in the dark ages before Multimate. If chocolate in any form is useful, I say use it.

Seriously, I think the way you work together is a great example of complementarity. If you just look at Genesis *without* “comp” lenses of hierarchy, a beautiful picture of partnership is presented. God gave men and women a general mission that for which God did not specify female tasks and male tasks, except for the obvious sexual differences. Vive le difference! Gramp3’s liberal paraphrase of Adam when he saw Eve after all the animals, is “Now we’re talkin’!”

Unfortunately that is not what the “Comps” see. They see power and authority and rules and roles and on and on and on. Gramp3 is lots more fun than either Grudem or Piper, I’m sure.

zooey111 wrote:

Not human behavior.
Not even animal behavior.
Reducto al Biological MACHINE.

You are probably right, HUG; I may have conflated “Russian” + “atheist” into Communist. Thanks for the correction!

In Reducto al Biological Machine, I remember the Victorian-era version of Animal Rights Activism, the Anti-Vivisection movement. At the time, scientific belief was that only humans had consciousness; all animals were biological machines whose blind stimulus/response reflexes only SIMULATED having consciousness or awareness or sensation.

When it came to vivisection (dissection while alive, common in biology research of the period), the justification by the scientific community went something like this: “See how the biological machine’s reflex responses produce such a convincing simulation of agony during vivisection. If we didn’t know better, we might think that the animal was actually feeling pain!”

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

When someone tells you to “chew the meat and spit out the bones”, check to be sure he’s not trying to unload a bag of dry bones on you.

Dagnabbit, HUG, now I can’t get that song out of my head. The foot bone’s connected to ankle bone, etc. Now Hear the Word of the Lord!

Many OT examples of restitution for wrongs such as Numbers 5:5-7.

I believe this blog is calling for biblical restitution on behalf of those who have been harmed. This is not revenge. Heart change and repentance come first then restitution.