"At the center of non-violence stands the principle of love." -Martin Luther King, Jr. link
Update: 5:30 PM 9/8/14: Question: The PCA believes in church discipline. How does the vaunted authoritative hierarchy deal with this one?
Last Friday, Twitter was afire with a new #takedownthatpost. Charisma News posted an article written by Gary Cass titled "I'm Islamaphobic, Are You?" His opinions were evidently deeply disturbing to a fair number of Christians. Charisma took down the post due to the overwhelming expressions of outrage. Charisma has had quite a few weeks. First, they dealt with the Gungor controversy, poorly in my perspective, and then they published Cass's opinion. Although it has been taken down by Charisma (good for them!), Cass has left it up on his website. Therefore, it has not left the public eye.
So, who is Gary Cass? According to his website, DefendChristians, a ministry of the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission (I didn't know there was one, did you?), he is a PCA pastor amongst other things.
Dr. Gary Cass began in ministry preaching the Gospel behind the Iron Curtain and working with the persecuted church in the Soviet Union.
For twenty years Gary served as a pastor in the San Diego area and is a minister in the Presbyterian Church in America with graduate and post graduate degrees from Westminster Theological Seminary in California.
While serving as a pastor, Gary was recognized for his leadership in the pro-life movement and for helping other Christians get elected for political office.
A former Executive Committee Member of a major San Diego County political party, Gary also held a non-partisan elected office. He was given the Salt and Light Award by Dr. D. James Kennedy in 200 for his leadership in the San Diego area.
In 2004, Dr. Cass became the Executive Director of The Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, an outreach of Coral Ridge Ministries founded by Dr. D. James Kennedy. While serving Dr. Kennedy as the Executive Director of the Center for Reclaiming America for Christ, the Center was rated one of the top ten pro-family organizations in America.
Dr. Cass is the author of Christian Bashing, Gag Order and co-author of The Bible and the Black Board and has appeared in national and regional TV, radio and print media including ABC, CNN, and Foxs News, and the Washington Post. Dr. Cass is heard daily on over 300 Christian radio stations across the nation on CADC's call to action, Freedom Alert. Dr. Cass has appeared on ABC News, CNN, Fox News Network and frequently on the Coral Ridge Hour. Recently, Dr. Cass visited Iraq to meet with Prime Minister, al-Maliki, regarding the plight of persecuted Iraqi Christians.
Fred Clark at Slacktivist, wrote a post which exposes more of the activities of Cass.
Cass is an author — most recently of an e-book titled The Bizarre Sex Life of Mohammed. As that title suggests, this is a guy who likes shooting for publicity by shooting his mouth off. He’s got a history of doing that, too — most famously, perhaps, in the monthly videos he posted before the 2012 election claiming to provide “Irrefutable Proofs That Barack Obama Is NOT a Christian!”
For the sake of this post, I do not wish to discuss politics. Instead, since Cass claims to be a Christian, I would like to discuss the issues of how Christians relate to the various major faiths in the world as Christians; not as Americans, Democrats, Republicans, etc. I would like to get your thoughts on how Cass represents the Christian faith.
Let's take a look at some of his thoughts. I highly recommend that you read the entire piece to see if we have fairly represented his point of view. As you read consider: Is this how you want Christianity to be conveyed?
1. He places all Muslims in the same pot.
He does not differentiate between ISIS and any other Muslim.
Now we get to watch their violent, demonic fanaticism on Youtube videos.
2. He calls Allah, Satan.
They believe they have been given a mandate by Allah (Satan) to dominate the world.
3. He does not believe that Muslims can be converted in any significant numbers and the Scriptures say so.
History does not record a mighty move of God in saving masses of Muslims. I believe the scriptures militate against mass Muslim conversions.
4. D.A.M.N. ( Deport All Muslims Now)
He believes that this is the only way to keep America safe.
5. Force Muslims to get sterilized.
Muslims in America are procreating at twice the rate of other groups. So, either we force them all to get sterilized, or we wait for the “Army of Islam” to arise in our midst.
6. Every Mosque in America is conspiring to kill you.
He claims it is irrational and stupid to believe that any Muslim in our country wants to co-exist.
7. Violence (against Muslims) is the only biblical™ option.
See what I mean? Put the word "biblical" in front of anything and it is God-ordained! Cass appears to revert to Old Testament covenantal theology by implying that God is going to turn Americans over to Muslims because we are disobedient.
Will God even intervene or turn us over to the Muslims for turning against Him?
8. In a Y2K reminiscent spiel, he claims that we must arm ourselves as well as our children. Folks, we are going down..
First trust in God, then obtain a gun(s), learn to shoot, teach your kids the Christian doctrines of just war and self defense, create small cells of family and friends that you can rely on if some thing catastrophic happens and civil society suddenly melts down.
9. A Call to Action
He ends this post with a call to action. We are now supposed to send his diatribe to friends and family. He says the measures that he proposes will be lesser pains if we implement them now. I wonder what is more painful then violence, sterilizations and deportation? Good night!
Brian Zahnd had this to say at Zac Hoag's blog at Patheos called Nuance. I think it is a good way to end the post.
What can we say about this other than it is an utter repudiation of the Sermon on the Mount. It is a brazen betrayal of Christian baptismal identity. It makes a mockery of our Lord’s command that we love our enemies. It is anti-Christ. To call Cass’s op-ed anti-Christ is not a polemic cheap shot, but an sober analysis. It is anti everything Jesus taught in his sermons, modeled on the cross, and proclaimed in his resurrection.
…I can only hope that their decision to post vicious hate-speech in the name of Christ is not some new trend, but a tragic lapse in judgment. I am glad they have chosen to amend and correct that course, at least for now.
Either Christianity is about forgiveness, or it’s about nothing at all.
Lydia's Corner: Zechariah 8:1-23 Revelation 16:1-21 Psalm 144:1-15 Proverbs 30:29-31
He’s calling for genocide. No ifs, ands or buts.
That is, imo, extremely evil.
Note: “Allah = Arabic word for God, used by Arabic-speaking Christians as well as by Muslims and those of other faiths who live (or lived) in the region, including the Druze, Yazidis, Jewish communities, etc. Beliefs *about* Allah vary according to religion, but the word predates Islam.
@ numo: The Muslims I know do not acknowledge Al Qaeda as fellow Muslims, but people of twisted beliefs who use the name of Islam.
The same is true of ISIS.
Also, on a more personal note: Martin Luther wrote a horrific anti-semitic screed titled On the Jews and Their Lies, in which he called for the complete destruction (including arson and razing buildings to the ground) of properties belonging to Jewish people. Cass sounds like Luther at his very worst.
My synod has repudiated Luther’s anti-semitic writings, thank God. I hope and pray that the PCA will clearly call out Cass for what he is, and repudiate what he is saying.
@ numo: Luther’s screed was the basis for Kristallnacht and much, much worse.
So where did this dude get his doctorate? The education section of his LinkedIn page only lists four years attendance at Vanguard University of Southern California.
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). Enough said. From what I know, this denomination is neo-Cal central.
Gary Cass – Proof that clowns can be dangerous.
@ E.G.: but this goes WAY beyond neo-calvinism. He’s calling for the annihilation of billions of people.
This dude says, “you can’t be a Christian if you don’t have a gun.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md18O3vHxcM
Maybe he’s in the early stages of Alzheimer’s?
I wonder…the PCA is big on church discipline. Of course, they keep it vague so they can discipline when, who, and what they please. So, what do they do to a pastor who says this stuff?
JeffT wrote:
The excerpt in the post above says he went to Westminster Theological Seminary, so that is probably where he got his advanced degrees. If it’s the WTS in California, that’s a well-respected seminary attended by PCUSA, PCA and other reformed types.
This is it possible that a erstwhile mainstream publication like Charisma could sibyl let this slip through? It’s not really reflective of a lapse of judgment, IMO, but of an underlying belief system. It’s just so flagrantly anti-Christian that I don’t see a way it could just be a “whoops” on the part of Charisma. It’s not as though there’s any nuance there to be confused by.
Drat, typos. Sorry!
Also, I don’t consider Charisma to be a bastion of common sense, but still, this seems over the top. They’re not some obscure, extremist rag.
Tim wrote:
Thanks! Mea culpa, I missed that. I used to think that obtaining a doctorate from a respected institution weeded out the lunatics, but I’ve found that not to be the case in any post-graduate field.
I’m more and more convinced that Charisma is no more than an advertising circular open to whomever can pay for space. Even so, are they nuts?
It’s impossible to make this stuff up right?
By the way, Brian Zahnd’s book, Unconditional: The Call to Radical Forgiveness is brilliant.
I’m in the PCA presbytery with Gary Cass. He has a reputation for politically charged Christ + America antics. Practically speaking, a complaint would have to be made to 1)either his church board of elders, or 2) the presbytery committee. I’m not quite sure if a church member would need to file the complaint or not. Likely, if anything is done at all it would not be public, for better or worse.
Horrible article he wrote.
Years ago I decided it didn’t matter who had the ‘right’ religion. by the time we discovered the answer, it was too late. Unless of course the Hindus are right and we get to come back and try again.
In my efforts to reconcile “christianity” like this with that on display in the New Testament, I’ve come to the conclusion that a large number of “christians” are what I call cultural christians; they call themselves christian because they see that as a part of their culture.
This helps explain the strong attacking stance taken by so many people against anything they see as infringing on their culture and the labelling of such things as unchristian etc. They’re not defending biblical christianity, they’re defending their culture from elements they see as attacking/threatening it
The slightly scary aspect of this is that I see an awful lot in common between this guy and his ilk, and extremists of any other religion. Just like there were calls to moderate Muslims to publicly denounce acts/ideas promoted by the extreme elements of their religion we probably should be making clear to them (Muslims) that these guys are just as off the rails and not representative of mainstream thought.
Thankfully I haven’t seen anyone defending this junk yet, but I know somebody somewhere is, because the internet.
JeffT wrote:
Honorary Doctorate from another Fundy?
Dave wrote:
This guy is a funhouse mirror reflection of the Jihadis.
“JUST LIKE ISIS/ISIL, EXCEPT CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff, no matter how over-the-top you can imagine, there’s going to be some True Believer out there twice as extreme, twice as over-the-top, and DEAD SERIOUS.
After “Aslan Is The Antichrist” went down for real, anything’s possible.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
Whatever the reason, he needs to be required to preach that wearing red speedos, black hooker boots, a Fu Manchu, and a ponytail.
“FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN!
THE GUN IS GOOD!”
Tim wrote:
Well, that is certainly a somewhat non-Missional POV, so no cookies from Keller for him. Which leaves open the possibility of discipline in the PCA. No Keller no discipline in the PCA.
Westminster California is not into this; they are much more 2 Kingdom than Philly. So I wouldn’t put this on the PCA in any way. He did not get it from either Westminster, at least not from the faculty or admin. However, there are some crazies who hang out with Doug Wilson and down at the Trinity Foundation. It sounds much more like them, especially with the political/religious fusion.
I don’t think this man has ever really talked with a Muslim person. I’d be willing to bet he doesn’t know much of anything about Islam and the variations within Islam. Really, he needs to have a cup of coffee with a Muslim here. I have become friends with several, but that’s because I can listen and am interested in them.
IS does not represent Islam any more than the Phelps cult represents Baptists. Or than John Piper does when he says God is going to bring down Dubai.
I believe that one of the prophets in the OT quotes God as calling Egypt “my inheritance” IIRC. I’ll have to look it up. But if that’s correct, then it seems like God is perfectly capable of saving and willing to save vast numbers of Islamic people.
Persephone wrote:
If Charisma isn’t obscure and extremist, and if it publishes views representative of its constituents, then I fear for our future.
Yes, I know it’s a left wing site, so their agenda notwithstanding, I think the primary source quotes in this list of articles speak for themselves:
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/organizations/charisma
I live in NC and have a non profit ministry that helps families that have children with health problems and disabilities. My family is personally hosting a child from Afghanistan who is here for medical reasons. She is obviously Muslim. If you talk to this child (who was attacked by extremists) you will find out that, as a previous commenter mentioned, other Muslims do not consider fringe groups, like the Taliban or ISIS, real Muslims. They view them as crazy people. I find the entire article to be the definition of foolish, and I’m sure my brother in law and his wife would say the same, since they are currently living their lives as missionaries to Muslim immigrants in a European country. Foolish and Embarrasing. I guess he’s missed the fact that there has actually been a great move of God within the Muslim community, and thanks to years of “planting and watering”, quite a few are starting to seek the truth about Jesus Christ.
E.G. wrote:
That fails to give due credit to Al Moher, Mark Dever, CJ, Don Carson, Thabiti Anyabwile, Tim Challies, etc. Let’s at least sprinkle a little in the direction of Baptists and not keep it all for Duncan and Keller.
Elizabeth Lee wrote:
He is more demented than that. Congenital ignorance and stupidity that cannot be cured by church school indoctrination (note, it isn’t education!).
@ Josh: Charisma is closely tied to the NAR 7 Mountains stuff, which is a (slightly) charismatic twist on Dominionism. I’m not surprised that they posted Cass’ screed.
@ AB: the previous commenter in question was me.
I try to put it in perspective by stating that most xtians don’t think the Klan, Aryan Nations, Christian Identity etc. are in any way xtian, although they claim to be. Ditto for ISIS and its very tenuous relationship to actual Islam.
Glad to hear about the girl from Afghanistan getting medical help, and – I’m sure- a lot of love.
Gram3 wrote:
Can you clarify what you mean by “no keller, no discipline”?
@ acg116:
I don’t believe that any disciplinary process will be started or completed if Tim Keller doesn’t approve. That is assuming that there is something prosecutable here in the courts of the PCA. That I do not know. For obvious reasons, I’m not in a position to know for sure, since women are not allowed beyond the court of the women.
That’s my opinion based on organizational dynamics, economics, and human nature. There may be elders in the PCA who have insider knowledge about Metro New York Presbytery and the denomination as a whole who can offer more authoritative information. I think the same would be true of Al Mohler if the guy were SBC, and certainly if he were an SBC Calvinist.
It would make me happy to see the PCA cleanse itself from this kind of thinking. I just don’t see that happening unless Keller is on-board with it. It is possible that this may be too embarrassing to overlook.
@ Gram3:
No need to be emphatic, Gram.
numo wrote:
Which reminds me of Gary North teaming up with TBN due to their shared dominion theology. I can’t think of anything else they had in common. I’ve always thought that was strange.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well done, HUG. (I won’t finish the quote though; I suspect it wouldn’t match with their worldview anyway :p).
Gram3: Until recently I thought that Keller was a relatively old-school reformed type (like JI Packer) who I could disagree without respect.
More recently, however, I am starting to think that he has too much vested in the neo-Cal movement to have the guts to speak out. E.g. Recent issues with Mahaney, Harris, and Driscoll.
Too bad, because he had potential.
Gram3: Uh… “disagree with yet respect.”
iPad auto correct. Grrrrrr.
@ E.G.:
I think the sooner that Christians of all flavors get rid of the idea of a clerical elite or class of uber-Christian or a special gendered class of “leaders” and “followers,” the better. All of us who are human are merely human. There is one God-Man and there are no demi-gods.
Sadly, I don’t see that happening soon, despite the wreckage we see all around us as a result of this kind of thinking, whether that thinking is explicit or implicit.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Cool! Hadn’t heard that one before, but I did see a few days ago that the ALS ice bucket challenge that’s doing the rounds is a secret plot to baptise people in the name of satan
Probably also belonging in this list is my father-in-law who argued quite vehemently with me pre our last federal election that the Greens (a political party here in Aus) were going to legalise marriage between people and animals. “Look it up on the internet” – agh! how can you reason with this?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This got me curious, so I used my favourite search engine (DuckDuckGo) and entered a whole new world of crazy/paranoia. Here’s a sample
http://www.greatpreachers.org/narnia.html
btw, I’m sure there’s some strong correlation between crazy/paranoia and website design straight from 1998
oops, I’ve somehow merged that link with HUG’s name. many apologies HUG for doing such a twisted thing to you
@ Dave:
I’ve fixed it for you.
In the future please just use simple links. No ref= etc…
wow. oh wow. what a total chicken. (and a bit more, but not sure if kosher on this site…)
@ Gram3:
The highway reference is nice, btw:http://biblehub.com/isaiah/19-23.htm
Dave wrote:
The “Aslan Is The Antichrist” came from a radio interview back when I was listening to Christianese AM radio during the Satanic Panic of the Eighties. Preacher being interviewed started out with the usual denunciations of He-Man (cartoon show of the time) and D&D and kept getting weirder. Denounced Thundercats (another cartoon) for “Egyptian Paganism” and went through a couple more before PROVING from SCRIPTURE that Aslan was The Antichrist and Lewis was demon-possessed when he wrote Narnia. (“BIBLE! BIBLE! BIBLE!”)
To the interviewer’s credit, by that time you could tell he wasn’t taking this preacher seriously. But the preacher was DEAD SERIOUS.
Dave wrote:
“IT HAS TO BE TRUE; IT’S ON THE INTERNET!!!!!”
That is the point where you start looking for something heavy to hit them with.
Dave wrote:
Note the reference quote at the end: “Dave Hunt”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hunt_%28Christian_apologist%29
During the Satanic Panic of the Eighties, PASTOR DAVE HUNT(TM) was one of the Big Names among the Witchfinders-General, SEEING Occult everywhere and Satan in everything. (Check out the Bibliography on that page. At the time, he was best known for his anti-Mormon screed “The God Makers”.)
@ Gram3:
Correction: Should be Trinity House Institute not Trinity Foundation.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Nah… just show them that xkcd cartoon about people being wrong…
THANK YOU for drawing attention to this shameful and hateful and imbecilic rant from a fellow PCA pastor. I have always said (and say it again now), some of the best human beings I have ever known happen to be fellow PCA pastors, while at the same time some of the absolute WORST human beings I have ever known happen to be PCA pastors. I don’t know what it is about my strange denomination. The fairly rigorous ordination process works to strain out at least a few bad apples, but it OBVIOUSLY doesn’t work properly all the time.
There are a number of procedures in place that could/SHOULD be deployed to bring public correction to this person. The PCA’s Book of Church Order can be found online. Possibly the easiest and most straight-forward way to get the ball rolling is for any person(s) to contact, directly and in writing (always leave yourself a paper trail in things like this), the Presbytery holding this fellow’s credentials. I have never heard of him and don’t have the stomach to research where he lives or what Presbytery he is a member of (I just know he is not in my Presbytery), but those with the stomach could research, and then contact the Stated Clerk of that Presbytery (they are all listed here: http://www.pcaac.org/presbytery-information/presbytery-list/).
When contacting that fellow’s Presbytery (via their Stated Clerk), quote and make use of the provision in the PCA’s Book of Church Order, Chapter 31, esp. 31-2:
“31-1. Original jurisdiction (the right first or initially to hear and determine) in relation to ministers of the Gospel shall be in the Presbytery of which the minister is a member, except in cases as provided in BCO 34-1. Such original jurisdiction in relation to church members shall be in the Session of the church of which he/she is a member, except in cases as provided in BCO 33-1.
“31-2. It is the duty of all church Sessions and Presbyteries to exercise care over those subject to their authority. They shall with due diligence and great discretion demand from such persons satisfactory explanations concerning reports affecting their Christian character. This duty is more imperative when those who deem themselves aggrieved by injurious reports shall ask an investigation.
If such investigation, however originating, should result in raising a strong presumption of the guilt of the party involved, the court shall institute process, and shall appoint a prosecutor to prepare the indictment and to conduct the case.”
When contacting the Presbytery (you would be writing to the Presbytery, via their Clerk, NOT writing the Clerk as an individual, if you catch the difference), you could say something like, “We are writing to bring to your attention a report affecting the Christian character of ……. The following article (included below) has become a public scandal, and demonstrates to us a plain lack of ‘Christian character’ with regard to both his public theology and his public attitudes and behavior…..We are asking you, as a Presbytery, to honor your ordination vows and “with due diligence and great discretion demand from (him) satisfactory explanations concerning reports affecting (his) Christian character;” and, should his “explanations” prove to be UNsatisfactory, to continue with your duty and bring him to trial, in accordance with your own Book of Church Order.” Dee and Deb are great writers. I am sure they could wordsmith something.
For the record, it would be awesome to see a complete change of heart on this fellow’s part; it would be awesome to have him write a long testimony here at the Wartburg Watch, a la Eagle, about how God worked in and around him to bring about that change of heart. It would also be awesome for automobiles to be able to run cheaply and efficiently on oxygen. I don’t want to completely write the guy off like he writes off hundreds of millions of fellow human beings, but I’ll say one thing. I would rather have any fifty randomly chosen Muslims as neighbors than this fellow PCA minister of mine.
Thanks again for drawing attention to this. The fact that you have helps to prove the point that this is already a public scandal, and so the fellow’s presbytery must act.
@ pcapastor:
Defrocking would be kind. He is into full-on hate speech and God alone knows how/why he still is in the clergy.
Gram3 wrote:
Exactly right!!
AB wrote:
May God bless your family in their mission. I had a dear (now deceased)elderly couple in my extended family who spent several years amongst Muslims in France. They worked both with those who wanted to convert, & with helping families of mixed (Christian/Muslim) religious backgrounds to adjust to life in Europe. In their retirement, they were a great inspiration to all of us–in the family, & in the church. As you may imagine, they were the 1st people I thought of when reading this story–They would be so saddened to see this.
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
I don’t know what that means.
@ Nancy:
Using keywords like ref, =, etc are attempts at invoking HTML code. I can’t see you bothering with that, Nancy, so you’re safe. 🙂
@ Marie2:
Thanks.
It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that Gary Cass has also been consuming plenty of stories about Muslims in Britain and France, and is going into panic mode based on those as well as stuff from Iraq and anywhere else people are being targeted by these radical militias. He also sounds like he’s been reading stuff like Survivalblog a little too much.
If he’s got actual audio/video evidence of violent things being planned or preached in our country’s mosques, he needs to make that public knowledge, even with potential risk to himself. I’m no pacifist; I believe in self-defense and a basic form of just war theory. However, he needs to put up or shut up, and that business of calling for mass deportation (after the forced sterilization?) smacks of desperation and coming unhinged.
numo wrote:
“GOD WILLS IT!”
— War Cry of the First Crusade
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
So, when I posted about this on Facebook, the only one of my friends who defended Cass also happens to be by far my most radical Calvinist aquaintance. What’s with these people?
I have not posted in a while. Sorry, I’ve been sick. So ill, we had to postpone our trip to Europe. Little depressed, we should be in Edinburgh this morning. :/
To the post above. I have a friend who converted from Southern Baptist to Islam. Very unusual for East Texas, I know. The thing is, I trust him more than most Baptist ministers and deacons and often eat a meal with him and his Muslim ” brothers.” Most are nice guys, businessmen, and hate ISIS with a passion. ( I look at it this way, if Christ was invited, wouldn’t he break bread with them?)
Look, we start going after different groups, what is next? Catholics? Episcopalians? Mormons? It sounds just like the Nazis in the 1930s-40s….
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have vague memories of seeing something like this in high school (late 80s – early 90s). It was a video of some sort shown at one of our InterSchool Christian Fellowship meetings. I can’t recall if the video spoke about Lewis, but it did touch on He-man, and Thundercats for sure. Even back then, I thought the whole attitude was a bit… too much. (It was a few years later that I learned to call it “paranoid”.)
KD
I am so sorry about your illness. Are you getting better?
Gram3 wrote:
You might be thinking of Isaiah 19:23-25 – “In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, ‘Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.'”
“Militant Muslims cannot live in a society based on Christian ideals of equality and liberty
My irony-o-meter just blew up.
K.D. wrote:
I hate to hear that. You used the word “postpone” so I assume that means you are getting better, so glad you are getting through that if I assume correctly.
So has he ever complained about how this supposedly happens in China (“supposedly” only intended to convey that I haven’t researched the topic, not that it couldn’t or doesn’t happen) to enforce the one-child policy? Because if he has, why is he advocating for basically the same thing?
Marie2 wrote:
Marie, thanks, and thanks also Tim, thanks. That is the reference. And what encouragement that is considering all that is going on in the Middle East. The problems and human suffering there seem insoluble to me, and I’ve been told by friends and acquaintances from the area that what underlies all this is complicated from just about every perspective. It goes way beyond Isaac and Ishmael and Jacob and Esau.
Sophie wrote:
Not just yours. I wonder what kind of religious militants could live in a society based on equality and liberty. To the best of my knowledge, those ideas did not arise within organized religion, Christian or otherwise.
Gram3 wrote:
I tried leaving a comment at his place asking how the post squares with Isaiah 19:23-25, but the comment is either in moderation or he decided not to allow it to go up.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
And I can prove that Obama is a secret Muzzlim with scripsher.
I’ve been concerned about this type of mentality concerning Muslims for a long time. It’s not just among Calvinists but Christians as a whole. There are radicals everywhere. Based on fear and ignorance, they put all Muslims in the same category of Terrorists. They claim a lot of knowledge on Muslims, when they really have no knowledge at all. This type of mentality is based on nothing but violence, thinking that fighting is the answer, and it’s wrong. I believe it to be sin.
It is also based on a skewed view of scriptures as some of you have wisely seen.
is based on nothing but violence
This should read is based on nothing but ignorant fear.
@ Tim:
For some reason I just doubt he will let that comment through.
Gram3 wrote:
It might cause him to have to explain how he wrote that article, holds those views, and claims to be a Christian. Maybe he’s been reading Doug Wilson, Mark Driscoll, and Alastair and agrees with their “violent Christianity” perspectives.
Debbie Kaufman wrote:
While totally ignoring that the vast majority of Muslims worldwide who are violent are violent toward other Muslims. It is sad that we are only waking up to this because Christians are targeted in majority Muslim countries. This is about tribalism and an apocalyptic version of Islam.
We need to remember that there are substantial numbers of Muslims who are not violent and are horrified by these wicked people just as we are horrified thinking of all the violence and abuses under the banner of Christianity.
The non-violent Muslims are the ones most likely to help us defeat the violent ones. It does no good to lump all under one category.
@ Debbie Kaufman:
Yes, it’s pervasive in the US – has been growing like toadstools since 9/11.
I’ve been expecting something like Cass’ screed since then.
You’re also correct in saying that SO many people who claim to “know” about Islam truly know nothing but biased, one-sided tales of horror that are designed to incite both fear and hatred. It’s very easy to come up with a similar narrative by proof-texting the Bible. And in the Middle East, the Crusades cast a *long* shadow – not just for Muslims, either. Western Europeans viewed the xtian communities of the ME with suspicion, often as heretics who deserved what they got (rape, pillage and conquest by said Westerners). Includes the burning alive of most of the Jewish community of Jerusalem (by forcing them into a synagogue and setting it on fire) once the army finally took the city during the course of the 1st crusade.
Truth is, *our* history of sectarian violence, persecution and hatred looks pretty bad to the rest of the world, and not at all Christ-like. We have no right to point fingers without acknowledging our own (often very recent) history. (Includes Jim Crow lynchings, the Trail of Tears, *many* wars against native peoples and their wholesale slaughter in many cases, etc.). We’re pretty self-righteous on the whole, imo, given the genocide of Native American/First Nation peoples plus theft of Hawaii from within (takeover of the government, arrest and imprisonment of the then queen, relegation of native Hawaiians to the lowest social rank).
OK, that’s a rant, but I’m gonna post it anyway.
@ numo:
Should be a comma between Jim Crow and lynchings.
Please understand that I care deeply about this country – what I said just above is not in any way intended to make it sound like this country is horrible. But for all our talk of freedom and equality and justice, we are still very much in process, and there’s much injustice and inequity here.
Gram3 wrote:
To his credit, he did let it go through, along with approximately 20 others that must have been stuck in moderation. He has not replied to anyone, though, not that I can tell.
Debbie Kaufman wrote:
Sometimes fighting is the answer.
You can trust me on that. I was raised by a very sweet, passive Christian mother who raised me to be highly codependent, and believed any form of fighting back, from using fists to even politely, strongly speaking up on my own behalf when being abused, was wrong. I was to put the bully’s feelings ahead of my own at all times.
I got an extreme overdose of “love they enemy” and “turn the cheek” philosophy from her and other Christians as I grew up, and which created all manner of problems for me in my life.
The few times I went against Mom’s teaching and stood up to bullies and jerks, the bullies and jerks backed down.
I have since then read many volumes by psychiatrists who explain it’s not wrong or selfish to have boundaries and stand up for one’s self.
On the contrary, being assertive and standing up for yourself deters abusers and bullies and con artists (who typically look for easy prey).
I’m always wary of Christians who paint God or Jesus at one or two extremes:
Either God/Jesus is 1. super nice, passive, and loving guy at all times, in all situations, to the point he’s a big old doormat, or he’s a sweet, harmless, Grandpa type figure, or,
2. a la Mark Driscoll types, God/Jesus is a caricatured version of a Hollywood type masculinity, is very aggressive, and beats everyone up all the time.
Listen to the song “Coward of the County” by Kenny Rogers. There’s a lot of truth in that song.
Some people, or groups of people, cannot be appeased or negotiated with.
@ Gram3:
There are violent *and* nonviolent people in all religions, in all cultures. Some people gravitate toward extremism in *all* places.
My guess is that this is because we’re human, and only incidentally related to our religious/political/ethnic (etc.) affiliations.
Our country desperately needs a revival of nonviolent protest, along with the best ethics and practices of those involved in the Civil Right movement. They showed that there is another way.
@ numo:
But there sure do seem to be a lot more of them among Muslims.
I don’t often hear about Quakers, Baptists, or Methodists strapping bombs on people or flying planes into building or telling people they must convert or a. pay a special tax regularly or b. be decapitated.
Bridget wrote:
Again, just like ISIS/ISIL’s “violent Islam” perspective.
A guy who specializes in church security was interviewed today. Here’s an article about it.
Protect the Sheep: Arming the Church against Violence
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2014/September/Protect-the-Sheep-Arming-the-Church-against-Violence/
“Incidents like this have Jimmy Meeks, a church security expert, sounding the alarm.
“We’re up to at least 473 confirmed violent deaths on church and faith-based property since 1999,” Meeks told CBN News.”
Muff Potter wrote:
Take a number and stand in line.
After that Birther billboard (“WHERE’S THE REAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE?????” with the World Net Daily logo on Route 15 outside Gettysburg two years ago, it’s gonna be a LONG line.
This is about tribalism and an apocalyptic version of Islam.
I agree. The Middle East has been part of the apocalyptic teaching since the 70’s or earlier. It seems that those like Gary Cass are basing their views on this teaching and on the misguided thought that hating people are OK. God is on their side.
Numo: Your rant is my rant too. Well said.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
Might have been the same guy. There was a cottage industry of of Satanic Panic types doing Warning To Christian Parents videos back then. As far as I can tell, his shtick about Thundercats (“Egyptian Paganism”) was unique. “Promoting Bestiality” is the usual denunciation of anything remotely Furry.
As a Brony for three years, I’m surprised My Little Pony hasn’t been targeted this time around. Princess Celestia is a current pop culture god-figure — not only a god-figure, but a Benevolent, Approachable, and even Playful god-figure. Just the polar opposite of these guys’ take on God.
(You know, there’s lotsa room for an essay on Princess Celestia as god-figure. My headcanon is that she and her sister are embodied Valar of the ponies’ world.)
E.G. wrote:
There’s a lot of similarities between Calvin and Mohammed, both in detailed theological systems, predestination, tunnel-vision on God’s Omnipotence and Soverignity, micromanaging attitude, and political ramifications. And their “More Calvinist than Calvin/More Islamic than Mohammed” fanboys are even more so.
I suspect a lot of it is Can You Top This behavior to PROVE to themselves that They ARE The Elect, the Favored of God. And all the rest of us are expendable red shirts in their little spiritual psychodrama.
He’s been practising the speech for years. See following link.
http://www.alternet.org/story/55717/christian_reconstructionists_are_trying_to_take_dominion_in_america_–_and_they_have_powerful_friends
Daisy wrote:
The number of decapitations in a global population of around 6 billion compared to all the other methods of killing is incredibly small. And decapitation, back in the day, was considered the humane way to kill someone. Now they do it to make sure they get on the news in the US.
Go back 50 or 60 years and you’ll see Methodists, SBCs, etc… lynching people. In the USA. And making a public spectacle of it. We aren’t that far removed from what’s happening in the middle east just now.
P.S. The rant in Charisma that started it all is not “Islamophobic”.
It’s IslamoPATHIC.
This ManaGawd doesn’t fear Muslims, he HATES Muslims.
“WE HATES IT! WE HATES IT FOREVER! (GOLLUM! GOLLUM!)”
And he went to Vanguard University of Southern California according to his Linkedin profile
@ Daisy:
I guess “the only good Indian is a dead Indian” originated in some otjhercountry , with adherents of other religions, then.
Ditto for the Klan.
Enough said.
@ Tim:
Also, his “Islamaphobia” could be the byproduct of conclusions he reached after studying the Koran and various sectarian theologies of Islam at work … abroad and on its own native soil.
Don’t know the guy and don’t read his stuff, but would seem he does have a right to say “why” he’s scared of Islam. Let him alone and let what he says be weighed in the balances of time and truth.
@ NC Now: Very well said!
@Daisy, so are you indeed a bigot? And are you conflating the need for self-defense and defense of one’s nation with genocide? I wouldn’t like to think so. Genocide has nothing to do with courage, btw, quite the opposite.
Also, CBN is not a trustworthy news source.
At the moment your words do not reflect very well on your much ballyhooed right wing sensibilities.
Phoenix wrote:
I don’t know anything about CBN, but I do have a question. I hear people say that this or that news source is not trustworthy, and that includes about every major news source that I know about. (That’s not a lot, I don’t make of career of news sources–bit of a disclaimer there.) But given big name news sources, and eliminating the obvious rabble rousers, how does one actually know the level of trustworthiness of a particular news source? Is there some outside organization or government agency or such that rates these people?
@ Daisy: There is a big difference between being assertive</b? and being aggressive.
Assertive behavior is something more women need to learn. Most women of my generation were *not* socialized to speak up for themselves and/or stand up for themselves.
That’s one thing.
Being aggressive is another. Aggression is what provokes fights, which turn into battles, which turn into violent reprisals and turn into wars – even genocide.
I wish war wasn’t par of human existence, and I do recognize the need for military action *at times.* But diplomatic solutions are the first choice, always.
“Kill or be killed” isn’t exactly a desirable state for any human being on the planet.
Please – for your own welfare (and I’m not being flippant or sarcastic here *at all*) – try to differentiate between assertiveness and aggression.
Scott Shaver wrote:
In our civil society he certainly does. But not in the church; his teaching is contrary to the word of God (as found in Isaiah 19 and Acts 10, for example) and should be addressed by those of us in the church.
Dee, he posted an “explanatory” article today. http://defendchristians.org/commentary/dr-cass-explains-his-islamophobia/
He actually just manages to dig a deeper hole for himself, and tosses the new dirt on top of himself while he’s at it.
@ Daisy: Daisy, ISIS is using their so-called “Islamic beliefs” as carte blanche to kill other Muslms they don’t like – not just Shiite but Sunni.
Al Qaeda’s terrorist acts in East Africa, back in the 1990s, harmed/killed significant number of locals who were/are Muslims. Al Qaeda, of course, claimed that the people who were in the path of their bomb blasts were’t true Muslims. ISIS says the same.
Neither group is acting according to the fundamental precepts of their religion, but they sure are Wahhabi extremism taken far beyond what the original Wahhabis would have dreamed of doing. (Likely only because they didn’t have the weaponry.) The Wahhabi sect originated in Saudi ARabia, but *by no means* are all Saudis Wahhabis. However, the Wahhabis made a deal with the Saud dynasty that helped them get into power. In return, the Saud dynasty has given a Wahhabi elite the power to carry out “justice” (etc.) in the Kingdom.
Wahhabism started spreading to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990s, during the genocidal wars in that region. It has been consciously perpetrated in many other parts of the world since then.
And yet, a lot of people within the Saud family (the royal family of Saudi Arabia) are very anti-Wahhabi.
The thing is… our country, like others, has made some bad alliances in the ME. We are hand-in-glove with the Saudi oil industry; we supported Saddam Hussein 100% – until, all of a sudden, we didn’t: we let Bashar Al Assad’s father commit atrocities (including the *first* mass murder of the entire city of Hama, which has been devastated again by his son) as a sop to peace within the region. Keep ‘dictators occupied killing their own (a la S. Hussein and the Assad family), and maybe they won’t kill others. We also armed and trained radical Islamist fighters during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, *knowing* that they were what they were.
We helped create Osama Bin Laden, in other words. Because that’s where/when he got his training as a violent jihadi, and where/when he formulated his ideas.
Our money, our weapons, our military advisors, our CIA.
We are to blame, too.
@ Tim: A deeper hole: no surprise there.
The 1st thing that came to mind when I saw his initial post was “the only good Indian is a dead Indian.” Which was usually in the lines of the Western TV shows and movies that were popular when I was a very young child. It always found its way in there somehow.
Nobody was ever able to explain to me why it was OK for Us to shoot Them and take Their scalps – because what parent or grandparent really wants to come out and tell a 7-year-old that “an eye for an eye” retaliation is OK? Instead, they shifted the grounds of the question while making it clear that people then did it, but it isn’t OK now (and, really, wasn’t OK for tem, either).
I have a couple of replies to Daisy that are cooking, btw. …
@ Phoenix: Genocide has nothing to do with courage, btw, quite the opposite.
I wish I’d said that.
@ Nancy: I think a little Googling on CBN will make its innate unreliability apparent.
I do agree that all news sources are biased, but usually not in the ways that CBN is biased.
@ Scott Shaver: As to him knowing much of anything about Islam, I VERY much doubt that’s the case. Not when he says Allah = the devil.
@ numo:
So you are saying that one just has to get a feel for it? That seems to be what people are saying, but that is on a place on the subjective to objective continuum where I am least comfortable. I was hoping that there was some organization or agency that did this.
@ Tim: wos – his header image for the title (why we cannot coexist) pretty much shows what he thinks of *anyone* who doesn’t profess the exact same beliefs as he does, be they Jewish, Buddhist, Taoist, Muslim, Wiccan, feminist, LGBT, liberal hippie peace activists and/or “band the bomb types” (am dating myself here!). He probably views all the other world religions in the same light, along with the political views of 85+% of the US and Canadian populations.
Sheesh.
@ Nancy: I think it’s necessary to look at material from different sources and compare.
I would never take CBN’s word for anything, though they might be telling the truth some of the time.
@ numo:
CBN as in Pat Robertson’s CBN, btw.
http://www.cbn.com/
Tim wrote:
Well, that’s a start. Maybe he can rethink this.
Scott Shaver wrote:
I would totally agree with his right as an American to say this. Wisdom, no. Say it while representing Christ and his church, and more particularly the PCA, no. If you take the office, you need to consider that office and behave with some sobriety.
@ numo:
should be wow and baN the bomb.
can’t blame it on Android this time – just my typing mistakes.
Tim wrote:
Sorry, Tim. Didn’t read your comment first. So, Amen, Tim.
Nancy wrote:
I think it starts by recognizing that no commercial news source I’m aware of is actually in the news business. They are in the business of delivering an audience, preferably a pre-defined and targeted audience, to another business by whatever mens works. That’s always been the case.
Most large cities years ago had two papers, one conservative and one liberal, one morning and one afternoon. That way, you could read the conservative paper to keep track of the liberals and the liberal paper to keep track of the conservatives.
That’s what is so great about the internet. You can check and cross-check and get tenth opinions from all perspectives! Our common problem as people is we believe the people who tell us what we already believe.
fwiw, this analysis and the following interview excerpts re. Wahhabism and its direct connection to the extremist views and actions of groups like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram and the Taliban might be helpful:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/wahhabism.html
Gram3 wrote:
should be whatever “means” works. Although I do love it when mens works,too.
Nancy wrote:
That seems to be the case in this Internet Age, when the cost to broadcast is essentially zero. I just try to hit up a variety of sources from different angles, and hope I can at least get some sense of the facts.
And that’s the real problem, in my opinion. People have always taken the facts and spun them this way and that. Now, you can have your very own facts! Just part of the general decadence of our culture…
@ roebuck:
Decadence?
I think it’s more to do with the fact that virtually anyone can publish their views via free blogs, comment sections and cheap web hosting, but that’s just me.
If anything, we have more access now to actual information (meaning primary sources, not just secondary and beyond) than at any other time in history.
numo wrote:
numo, isn’t that what I just said? – broadcasting any and all beliefs, ‘facts’, spin, etc. is essentially free.
Are the ‘primary sources’ out there and available? Maybe, maybe not so much. Try to tell the difference between real and spoof. It’s like trying to get a sip of water from a firehose.
Decadence, yes, in the sense of everyone feeling that it’s possible to retreat into their own little reality bubble, and deal only with their own ‘facts’, generated by their own ‘community’ (in itself a word who’s meaning has been totally perverted). This is not how you have a culture, or a society, or a civilization. It is disintegration. There is no ‘we’ any more.
In the past, the Muslims protected persecuted Christian minorities such as the Oriental Orthodox from persecution by the Byzantine Empire, during the dark ages. Some Muslim derivative sects, particularly some of the Sufis, most especially the persecuted Alevis of Turkey, follow a Trinitarian theology, preserve many Christian rituals, and emphasize the importance of loving everyone, regardless of religion. I daresay they’re rather more Christian than this man, who I would argue is as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist, if not worse. Even ISIL has not conducted mass sterilizations, although their mass circumcision of Christian men remaining in Mosul came close. This man however is essentially calling for genocide and ethnic cleansing on an unimaginable scale. In making such blasphemous remarks, he is actively placing the lives of Christians in Islamic countries in even greater danger. I would argue the PCA should depose and excommunicate him over this.
@ roebuck:
I see what you’re saying, and you make a lot of good points. Can’t agree across the board, but I’m enjoying the discussion very much.
Again, though, am thinking it is more of a fragmentation going on than decadence. I am not certain thats the best description, but am also wondering if you can give an example or two?
I think the existence of blogs like this one is proof that there *is* honesty out her on the admittedly checkered interwebs. Now, if by decadence you’re referring to the darknet, then I agree, though I think much of it is outrightly evil.
But that’s probably a discussion for another time and place.
@ William G.:
Glad you stopped by! Very much agreed.
@ numo:
By decadence I mean the ‘anything goes’ aspect of our ‘culture’. When communitiy comes to mean ‘I’ll just find a website where everyone agrees with me, and I with them’, I call that decadence for a civilization. The center can not hold, and what then?
I’ll give you an example or two, or two million – the Internet.
For sure there are wonderful oases on the web, if you can find them and identify them – and for sure this is one of them. But that’s what they are – oases. People fasten onto what confirms them in their own fears and anger and hatreds and scapegoating. The web really facilitates that. What is the signal to noise ratio, honestly?
I’m enjoying this conversation too, thinking out loud with you. I guess I would say that fragmentation is a symptom or manifestation of decadence. Decadence is a cultural/civilizational thing. I think ‘the West’ is in the midst of it. What is The Project of our civilization? Are we to be mere ‘consumers’, ‘consuming’ ‘content’ on the web?
Debasement of the language is another manifestation of decadence…
So many more reasons that his logic about Arabs not being “convertible” is crap.
-Arab languages were spoken at Pentecost (Acts 2:11), so why does he think Arabs won’t be converted?
-He apparently can’t distinguish Arabs (who are an ethnic/language group) from Muslims (who are a religious group).
-Christianity was pretty widespread in Arabia before Mohammed. I don’t know that much about Islam and even I know that a basic fact of Mohammed’s biography is that he interacted with Christians. Where did they come from if Arabs are the cursed and unconvertible “seed of Ishmael”? Are we expected to believe they were all non-Arab imports, in an age when long-distance transport was, to say the least, difficult and time-consuming?
Also just like to restate that the “seed of Ishmael” being cursed with non-convertibility, reminds me so so much of the “curse of Ham” being used to justify slavery of Africans – i.e., your ancestor p***ed off God a zillion years ago, so I get to own/persecute/exploit/whatever you because the Bible.
Dave wrote:
Exactly.
@ roebuck:
Interesting thoughts, though again, I’m not sure I think it is all about decadence. Agreed, though, on oases!
OTOH, people in other countries (like Egypt) have used the internet for social change. I think there’s a lot of genuinely good uses of the tech and networking by people in the arts, too. And programs like Skype allow people to *see* far-away loved ones, which (having grown up in a family where my dad was on long sea voyages) I wish we had had long ago.
I’ve also found some great instructional videos (for music) on YouTube, though also a ton of terrible bids. But there are some truly accomplished people putting good material out there at no cost to those who watch, which is a hugely generous thing to do. There are (for example) people in many countries who have little access to that kind of material – but they can see and learn from those bids. (I play non-Western percussion and have learned some very cool stuff via YouTube – the instructors are on other continents.)
@ numo:
Should be a ton of terrible videos.
Autocorrect isn’t all it’s cracked up to be!
I wanted to comment. I really did. But this ball of stupid is so tangled, I just can’t.
numo wrote:
What happens when the Wahabi figure if they knock over the Saud dynasty they become the new Kings and Caliphs?
Mecca and the Caliphate (the succession after Mohammed) are the Iron Throne of Islam.
And this Game of Thrones has been flaring up since the Turks and then the Europeans crumbled.
Daisy wrote:
What is his point? This is 31.5 per year. Which likely means you’re 10 to 20 times more likely to die in a traffic accident on the way to church than be killed in an attack at church. Maybe more than that.
In the US we have about 32,000 traffic deaths per year. This is a problem to be worried about.
Also it seems there are over 300,000 religious organizations in the US. This makes the odds of someone knowing someone who has died in a church related killing pretty low.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Oh, go on. Or as Mrs Doyle from Father Ted would say, “go on, go on, go on, go on, go on go on, go on, go on !”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I doubt they plan to do that, because the Saud’s and other oil-rich families are the ones who give them all the $$$$$ to do what they do.
OTOH, who knows? As you said, that region (all of the Middle East) has been in a game of thrones for thousands of years now. It’s not likely to end anytime soon.
Thank you for posting on this Deebs. Stuff like this scares me and it’s good to see people getting right on condemning it.
Wasn’t sure where to post the answer to your by-laws question, so I apologize for this being off-topic.
The SBC church I attend gives a copy of the church by-laws to each person who wants to join the church.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Read Thomas Heghammer’s “Jihad in Saudi Arabia: Violence and Pan-Islamism since 1979” and you’ll see that they’ve thought of it already.
Pingback: Islamophobia Is Not In The Bible | Tim's Blog – Just One Train Wreck After Another
@ numo:
I am not defending CBN. I have heard that NBC and CNN cannot be trusted. I don’t think I ever even heard of CBN until Daisy mentioned it. This is not about CBN; I mean “the news” in general.
roebuck wrote:
That is a good way of looking at it.
@ William G.:
Words are equal to actions? The person who says he would like to kill me is worse than the person who does kill me? That seems to be the gist of your comment.
Numo said: “OTOH, who knows? As you said, that region (all of the Middle East) has been in a game of thrones for thousands of years now. It’s not likely to end anytime soon.”
*
Totally agree
I decided to write about how Cass’s position is contrary to Isaiah’s prophecies, with a link to Dee’s post above as another resource: http://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/islamophobia/
I think this is proof you don’t have to be a genius to obtain a doctorate.
@ JeffT:
Nickname wrote:
This is they way it used to be almost everywhere. Now this is a practice on the decline. It gets in the way of authoritarian leadership.
Nancy wrote:
All media new sources have biases. They have to pick which of the 10,000 or so possible stories they can cover (our of 1,000,000 or more that exist in the world) that they will cover.
This means it becomes easy to fill an hour with:
– Religion is ruining the world/nation/city
– Atheists are ruining the world/nation/city
– Political party A has a great plan for our future
– Political party A has a plan that will destroy our future
– There are murders everywhere and people need to be afraid
– Most places are very safe and living in fear is a loosing game
and on and on and on
But covering the news costs money. So in the US we pay for it (mostly) via ads. So you have to SELL to advertisers. So you pick a theme of news stories that your marketing team can use to sell to advertisers by convincing them you will bring in an audience they want to reach.
Last night I remembered an incident that might bring a little cheer to this discussion.
Some years ago we were in Seattle and a Somali cab driver was driving us to the airport. I engaged him in conversation like I do everyone I meet who is obviously from somewhere else. He said he was thankful that he got his family out of Somalia to the US because conditions there were nearly unendurable with constant war and no jobs or food sometimes.
He didn’t know anything about America except that they would be safe and be able to work. Someone here (Muff?) told him about Jeffersonian ideals, so he starts telling us all about Jefferson because he decided to find out about the man whose idea’s were so influential here. More about Jefferson than I ever knew!
So, he’s an evangelist for America while driving his cab. He told us some stories of conversations he’s had with young Americans who just don’t appreciate what we have here and don’t take proper advantage of our freedoms.
You never know what you can learn by just talking to people as persons and not just as instances of a class of people.
Nickname wrote:
My question is can you examine the by-laws well before you decide to join? I wouldn’t want to spend time and effort getting involved in a church community and then get a copy of the by-laws right before I was becoming a member, only to find out I had real problems with the by-laws.
Nancy wrote:
Dee, Dr. Nancy,
Thanks for asking. Have an infection I wouldn’t wish on anyone. I have good days and bad days. The Levofloxacin seems to be helping, but my physician said it my take a while to get better. I visit him again on Friday for a reevaluation. He may send me on to a specialist….
Lydia wrote:
Certain remarks of our Lord would suggest as much. At any rate, vaguely Islamic religions such as the Alevis and other Sufis, who have a history of being killed, rather than of killing, cannot be compared with ISIL or even the Salafist extremists of the Hanbali fiqh. I say this as an Orthodox Christian who views Mohammed as a false prophet under the control of a demon posing as the Archangel Gabriel. Yet Heaven forfend that any kind of crusade against the Muslims, or persecution of them, be countenanced. The Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox were opposed to the Crusades, and in many cases were slaughtered alongside the Muslims, even cannibalized.
K.D. wrote:
I hate that for you. Some of those things can be the dickens to deal with. You hang in there are don’t let it get you down.
__
EXTRA! A Bulletproof Pastoral Mind: “A mighty 501(c)3 fortress is our security laden church?”
hmmm…
In today’s religious climate, is every church goer suspected of being a potential religious terrorist, requiring the church building to sport interior and exterior security cameras, plain cloths, and uniformed armed security guards, and the like?
How lovely…
-snicker-
What a wonderfully positively uplifting experience!
$ure.
Now you know why the popcorn cost 10% of your monthly income…
-snicker-
(shakes head)
Forget da pew replacement wit chair seating, are proximity sensors and metal detectors n’ ‘sheepdog’ programs next?
huh?
SKreeeeeeeeeetch!
Right about now, kind folks are probably thinking : “Maybe we should just stay home…”
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Comic relief: Bolt – “There is No Home Like the One You’ve Got”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIjI1-H2Q80
—
@ Sopwith: great comment, Sopy!
@ William G.: i’m not certain that the Alevis are Sufis, though they certainly seem to have a strong infusion of Sufism.
About the cannibalism, etc. – yes, which has been consistently brushed aside by many Western historians (like Runicman).
William G. wrote:
Then I take it you have never had to gouge your eyes out. :o)
Everyone keeps bringing up glorious history where Methodists lynched and Muslims were peace-loving. I am familiar with both including the peaceful Assyrians who lived in villages next to a kibbutz.
The fact that this PCA pastor is a total whack job does not mean Islam is benign at all which is what I am seeing promoted on this thread. Where are all the feminist who are usually outraged at Evangelical Patriarchy when it comes to Islam? Women’s status in the Islamic religion is outrageous. And I am shocked so many here are advocating tolerance for it even in a Free Country. There is already a problem in other Western countries with Muslims implementing Sharia in their communities under the guise of religious tolerance. We are all about individual liberties. And yes, I work with Muslim refugees and see what goes on with the women and it is a horror. The women, of course, know no better and fear losing their families.
@ numo: also, I cannot in all good conscience accept that Mohammed’s visions were the product of demonic activity. I think that is not a fair or honest take on the origins of Islam, or of Mohammed himself.
Understand, I am xtian, not Muslim. But they are the 3d major monotheistic religion to come from the Middle East, and there are more commanlities with both xtianity and Judaism than many people realize. (Though you wouldn’t know it from looking at groups like the Taliban or ISIS.)
@ numo:
erk! Should be “commonalities” above.
@ Lydia: There are many different ways of practicing Islam; there are many different schools of Islamic jurisprudence.
And Islam – like any other religion – is affected by local culture. Educated urban Muslims who live in Beirut are NOT the same as members of the Taliban, who come primarily from Afghan tribal groups and who don’t have much education or understanding of the outside world (includes other groups of people who live in Afghanistan).
You want to say that all Muslims are alike, and that all Muslim women are oppressed. Many truly are oppressed – no contest there. But to claim that all Muslims live and act that way is as absurd as claiming that all American evangelicals are white supremacists.
I know you don’t like what some of us have to say, since you hold to more absolutist views on a number of things. So be it – let’s live and let live.
@ numo: One other thought: a *lot* of European cultures are still extremely patriarchal – take Russia, Greece, the rest of the Balkans + former Yugoslavia, much of France, italy, Spain and Portugal as examples. Women are way behind the curve in those places, compared to the UK, Scandinavian countries, etc.
Is that due to religion, culture, or a combination of the two?
Lydia wrote:
It’s going to require us to make careful distinctions between Islam and Sharia. Political correctness, IMO, shuts down meaningful discussion of the real issues, as we have seen in England recently. In the past, we have made legal distinctions between Mormonism and polygamy, animists and animal sacrifice, and medical intervention to benefit children over the religious objections of their parents. I think that honor killings have been prosecuted, for example.
There are cultural Muslims who are very liberated and love the West. They believe that the Koran and Hadiths and their traditions have been co-opted by people consumed with power. I remember when Egyptian women were well-educated and liberated and Persian women who came here in anticipation of or after the Ayatollah Khomeini took power because they realized what his apocalyptic version of Islam would mean.
I suppose we will find out how to triage our civil liberties when it comes to Islam, and we’ll find out if our laws and culture are robust enough to stand up against any religious system.
Gram3 wrote:
Me, too. I’ve counted some of those Egyptian and Iranian women as friends.
@ numo: And most take their religion (Islam) pretty seriously, but they are anything but the stereotype of the “oppressed Muslim woman” that Lydia refers to in her comments.
@ Gram3: One of my Egyptian Muslim friends went to a Catholic girls’ school in Cairo, where her classmates were Muslim, Jewish and Christian (this is before Nasser expelled Egypt’s Jewish population). They were crazy about Frank Sinatra and Johnny Mathis (along with the Arabic pop stars of the day), and were always at the movies on weekends to see the latest Egyptian movie musicals (many based on American movies, but with distinctly Arabic elements).
Cairo isn’t the same now, but until very recently, it was the entertainment capital of the Arabic-speaking world.
What you see on US TV news isn’t the whole story by any means. You can watch clips from ARabic TV and see thoroughly secular women hosting shows, attending shows (even if in hijab). Arabic-language fashion magazines are *still* a big thing in the Arab world – even in Saudi Arabia. Some of you would be amazed to see what’s inside the closets and makeup kits of Arab women!
There are a lot of things that we simply don’t understand about the Middle East in general and Islam in general.
My *theory*, based on observing what has happened in the past several decades, is that a big part of the appeal of radical forms of Islam is actually rooted in culture rather than the Koran and Hadiths.
There is a deep hatred, a hatred that seems irrational to many of us, of the Jews and particularly the Jewish state. Great shame was brought upon the Muslim consciousness when victory went to the Jews in 1967, even more than the 2 previous conflicts because some interpreted that defeat to mean that Allah chose to let the infidels have their city because they were unworthy Muslims.
Then, in 1973, it seemed like they might regain their previous Land, but they were defeated again. This only added to their cultural shame. But at about the same time, oil prices spiked and the Arab states had more resources to export the more extreme versions of Islam by building mosques and cultural centers. My opinion is that the Saudi royals made a deal with the devil to control their radicals by buying them off.
I think that the ostentatious display of culture in Dubai, for example, is an attempt to remove that stain of shame. Most of the poor in the Islamic world, however, have no way to do that other than by doubling down on their allegiance to those who they believe will destroy their shame by destroying Israel and the US who they see as enabling it.
We need to understand what underlies the appeal of radical Islam to the younger people and reach out to those living here who just want a better life while not pandering to cultural practices which are abhorrent to a free people as some in England have done. Not saying that will be easy.
I should have said, too, that honor/shame can be considered zero-sum, so that if I experience shame, the only way to remove that shame is retribution against the one who has brought shame. I have found that the idea of free grace with no strings attached is a very difficult thing to get across to my Muslim friends.
The idea of winning by losing makes no sense and neither does free forgiveness of a wrong committed. And of course the cross was all about victory through “defeat” and free forgiveness for sins committed against the one who was killed. Muslims, in my experience, have trouble understanding that God would allow his son to be killed and view the cross as shameful. Therefore, they reason, Christ could not have actually died on the cross because God would not have permitted him to be shamed or for God to be shamed by it.
@ Gram3:
Those countries were very secular at the time. And even with dictators, women had much more freedom. Turkey led the way. My Iranian friends told of how women literally changed into coverings over night when Khomeini came to power. (We had Muslim foreign exchange students living at our home for most of my teen years)
It is not unlike the convos we have about egal/patriarchy. Which one is a correct interpretation of the Quran? The more secular moderate or the fundy religious?
Lydia wrote:’s
I have to say Erdogan was a surprise to me. Tour groups of women used to go to Egypt at least until the mid 1970s I still think we can win the cultural war here and in the West if we are willing to stand for our values and freedom. That doesn’t mean internment camps or mass deportation. But, honestly, I do think that it means not kidding ourselves about the determination of a few, and we need to have zero tolerance for radicals and their enablers.
I honestly don’t see a way forward to anyplace good in the Middle East itself that is a tangle of ethnic tribes and religious factions within Islam, each of which has a long history of grievances against the others. Sort of like Europe awhile ago.
It may be that it’s something like Ebola in that we will have to endure huge human suffering while trying to ameliorate the suffering while avoiding giving in to fear until it burns itself out.
I think the deeper question is whether either hard or soft coercive power and a particular religion/religious view go together. I don’t think that they do even when the ones in power are just like me.
@ Gram3:
I’m just now reading a novel set in Spain, where the male characters are *so* preoccupied with their honor and w/vengeance for perceived slights (real or not) that I have to wonder how much of this mentality is left in parts of Europe as well.
By the same token, my understanding of many ME dictators’ tolerance for religious extremism is that if people are distracted by religion, well then, their regimes aren’t in danger of being toppled anytime soon. Look what happens when people *do* start taking to the streets in political protests…
As for the Arab states and Israel, I kinda think Israel isn’t as high on the list of priorities as it was during Nasser’s era, the heyday of pan-Arabism, but I may well be wrong. What I know for certain is that most ME countries are much more complex – culturally, ethically, historically – than is reported in our news, which does a pretty terrible job covering the rest of the world, imo.
As for Iran, it was no paradise during the Shah’s day, though it was freer. But he was a dictator kept on the throne by US oil money, and (again) is another example of US alignment w/unsavory characters. We, after all, were the ones who overthrew his predecessor – Mossadegh – in a move that toppled the *only* democratically selected government that Iran has ever had? Our money, or men (headed byKermit Roosevelt), our CIA.
Speaking of which, one of my friends who fled after the 1979 revolution told me about having seen CIA operatives driving through parts of Tehran throwing high a denomination US currency out the windows, to see people scurry for it. I knew this had happened, but never imagined I’d meet someone who’s seen it in person. (Iirc, it was a regular occurrence.) Poor and lower middle class people supported Khomeini because the thought they’d get better treatment under his rule than they did under the Shah, when the gap between the haves and the have-nots was constantly being demonstrated to them. Even today, there’s a bug difference between north Tehran (where the well-off live) and south Tehran, which is a working class area. In north Tehran, women can get away with uncovering their hair (wearing wispy little scarves that are pulled down to show all/nearly all of their hair plus Western street clothes) – in south Tehran, nope. I don’t want to make poorer people sound like villains, because they’re not. I think Khomeini and those who’ve followed in his wake have harmed everyone in the country, though Iran has been on the brink of actual democratic reform several times over the past 15 years. Someday, God willing, it will happen.
@ numo: should be ethnically above – a mixture of religions is also true in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Iran and other ME/N. African countries as well.
As for normative Islam, I think AB gave the answer way upthread, in stating that the Afghan citizens they know think the Taliban and ISIS are certifiably around the bend in more ways than one. (Kinda like my “Klan/Aryan Nation/” Christian” Identity are to actual xtianity as…” comparison further upthread.)
@ Gram3:
Unfortunately, much of Europe is, imo, still like that – especially true in nations that were part of the Soviet Bloc, but also seen in the hatefulness toward immigrants shown by people who belong to Martine Le Pen’s party in France. (A couple of months ago her father, Jean-Marie, stated publicly that the Ebola epidermic is good for France, since it’s killing off Africans who might otherwise try to emigrate to France.)
@ Gram3:
Keep in mind that national boundaries in the ME have more to do w/what was imposed on local peoples by the Ottomans,French and British than anything chosen by the peoples and religious groups who find themselves in the same country solely because some other, outside power drew the lines…
In Lebanon alone, there are a number of xtian groups who aren’t exactly friendly or tolerant toward each other, even though most of them belong to various parts of the same church (Catholic or Orthodox). In Lebanon there are other religious minorities as well – true throughout the region, really.
@ numo:
I should quit typing for the night – so many mistakes!
Ok, totally off topic, but i had a day-long Twitter conversation-debate w/ a complementarian. I know I did the right thing (and some private msgs confirmed this) but I’m exhausted emotionally, & dragged up a lot of old wounds, & I just need a few people to give me some Egalitarian hugs. Are there any Egalitarian huggers out there? <3
@ Calvinist Janeway:
Of course! Consider yourself hugged. 🙂
@ numo:
THANK YOU. I have a headache. I want to go bang my head against the nearest wall. Then I get a sweet msg that say. “Hey, b/c of what you said, I’m making a point to be more sensitive & receptive to my wife’s needs.” Pass the advil, & let’s do it again tomorrow.
Calvinist Janeway
You are one awesome lady! Hugs!!! you are making a difference.
@ Calvinist Janeway:
I once had a two day-long argument on my blog with a guy defending child marriage. I can relate to the Advil.
@ Calvinist Janeway:
Don’t know what happened on Twitter, but here’s a big hug for taking it on!
@ numo:
My first exposure to Twitter, no kidding, was an acquaintance from Syria who was monitoring events in Homs. I couldn’t believe it. So I asked him/her about who was who and what was what in the Syrian conflict. She gave me a rundown and a sense of hopelessness talking about it. To make matters even more poignant, he/she is Arab on one side and Armenian on the other. His/her ancestor was a survivor of the Genocide that is still denied by the Turks. So he/she had an interesting perspective, and my takeaway has been that there are no good sides and easy answers.
I don’t blame the poor people. The poor are always the first to suffer, and they are the easiest to exploit because they don’t have options. That’s true everywhere.
WRT Europe, I had not thought about that. You make a very good point. Belgium, for example, really is two different cultures. I pray that America does not fracture further along ethnic and religious lines.
My Muslim info comes from Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Malaysia, Emirates, Lebanon, and Afghanistan. But even that doesn’t begin to cover the spectrum of cultures, ethnicities, and other interests we lump under “Muslim.”
Thanks for all the info and perspective. One of the things that makes TWW so interesting and informative.
My female friend from Syria is OK, but I don’t know what has happened in the past couple of years to the other. So that’s very sobering. A few million refugees or some unknown people who were killed in Aleppo or Homs sounds a little different when you have an individual and an entire family in mind who might be affected.
@ Gram3:
I hear you about individuals and their families. I was thinking similar thoughts while writing some of my replies – friends here w/family there, former students in the ME, and so on.
I started reading some blogs (in English) written by ordinary Iraqis back in 2007, and had to stop because it was heartbreaking. Just sending your kids off to school every day was fraught w/danger, because they could easily be shot or blown up on the way there and back. And then there was the young teenager whose family escaped to the UAE and had to leave everything behind (including her beloved pet cats). She was severely traumatized and her posts alternated between talking about that and pictures of kittens. She was trying so very hard to just get from one day to the next. I wished I could do something – anything – for her. Multiply her thousands of times over and you start seeing the suffering on a very human scale (it becomes personal) and I had to quit reading those blogs. Being powerless to do anything is hard.
There are many sites carrying this information.
There is an increase in rape and pedophilia being performed by Muslims in the UK, but it’s being sort of covered up or downplayed due to political correctness.
I’ve often read that British reporters, due to political correctness, do not like to refer to Muslims as Muslims in their reporting, but will use other terms, such as “Pakistani,” or some form of the word “Asian.”
Muslim Pedophilia in the UK Ignored by Politically-correct Authorities
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/19023-muslim-pedophilia-in-the-uk-ignored-by-politically-correct-authorities
UK Politicians Feared Racism Charges for Exposing Muslim Rape Gangs
(headline from Front Page Mag)
UK Politicians Feared Racism Charges for Exposing Muslim Rape Gangs
(headline from Breitbart)
UK’s Rotherham rape scandal: The horror of political correctness | My Turn
(op/ed from Federal Way Mirror)
UK’s multiculturalism fosters rape culture
(from Columbia Daily Tribune, by Rich Lowry)
Under the present circumstances and in light of some of what the president seemed to be saying last night, I am thinking that we all must be quite circumspect in what we say. Sometimes to even talk about something in open public forum is contraindicated. The matter of what seems to be happening both in the middle east and in some european countries, both in the areas of attitudes toward muslims and in the alleged resurgence of anti-semitism and in some recent moves by russia–we just cannot know all the accurate information and we ought not get too involved in too many opinions too loudly proclaimed. We do not need any more anger and unrest and street demonstrations in this country than we can avoid.
So here is my position: “Oh, my, what a mess! God help us all.” This does not mean that I do not have opinions, only that I think that our own culture is in a period of semi-instability and we need to stay intentionally and committedly calm.
__
Why are not reverends, pastors, or priests licensed, bonded, and insured like the rest of the ‘professionals’ who practice their ‘trade’ ?
What ‘safeguards’ are in place for ‘cases’ of malpractice?
—
This morning I had a physical and Pap smear. One of the women working in the doctor’s office is Muslim. I asked the physician’s assistant if it was a hard day for her (for the Muslim woman) and she said she didn’t think that anyone had made any comments to her yet.
I told her that it wasn’t her (the Muslim woman’s) fault that someone hijacked planes and flew them into buildings. I don’t have a problem with Muslims. I do have a problem with Muslim terrorists (I have a problem with terrorists, period!), and I would like to think I’m smart enough to know the difference.
Anyone who wants all Muslims deported is making the same mistake that led to the internment of the Japanese during WWII.
@ Tina:
Your closing sentence: yes.
@ Nancy: while I appreciate your point I am so tired of the climate of fear re. expressing opinion that’s prevailed ever esince 9/11. I used to say things in public that I am extremely hesitant to say now, and I think that’s true for many of us.
Speaking online is my only outlet. I don’t know if you feel the same constraints, and of course, it is always important to be careful to evaluate information.
Do we, as Christians and as others who care, have a responsibility to speak out against ideas that we think are harmful? I think we do and I think that what this guy has written is harmful to relationships between Muslims and others here and is also harmful to the overall effort to prevent terrorism here and abroad.
He is building a wall of suspicion between Muslims who are against terrorism and non-Muslims. That is the last thing we need to do. I don’t think he realizes that we *need* Muslims of good will here to help us fight the ones who wish us harm. He doesn’t realize or care that the Muslims of good will are considered infidels by the jihadists and might be jeopardizing their own safety to help.
He obviously does not understand the situation, but he has a mic, so he can spread his ignorance and fear. We need to take the opportunities to share our knowledge, to correct one another, and to speak carefully in the places God has placed us.
Lydia wrote:
Just so were clear, I am in no way arguing that Islam is benign. To quote Pope Benedixt XVI, Islam has peaceful aspects; it also has other aspects. What this heretic who dares to call himself a pastor, in the same denomination that once was crowned by James Kennedy of blessed memory, is doing, is to suggest that we Christians reduce ourselves to the level of the murderous hordes of ISIL, that we deny Christ in order to commit genocide. God did not allow the crusades to succeed in light of their horror, but rather lifted His protection from them, returning the disputed region to the Mualims until the 20th century. If as Christians we attempt a genocide against Muslims in the US, which would inevitably result in the accidental killing of Arab Christians such as Copts, Syriacs and especially Antiochians, we would surely bring down the wrath of God upon ourselves for having fundamentally betrayed the direct commandments of Christ in the summary of the law.
@ Gram3:
Exactly!
@ Gram3:
I can relate. When I was in college, I worked with a devout muslim young man from Damascus whose family sent him here for school. I often wonder how he and his family are. I also, a that same time, had neighbors who were students from Kuwait. It was 1989-1990…then Hussein invaded…..It this a very complicated region. Honestly, when you think about it, the US is not much less complicated …..
@ William G.:
Funny, because Tim, the trial judge who comments here, was scolded in his combox for talking about Cass instead of the persecution of Middle Eastern Christians. Apparently the commenter failed to realize that taking Cass’ advice, would probably result in even more Middle Eastern Christians being persecuted / killed.
Hester wrote:
So we have a professed Christian saying that Christians should act tribally and never criticize one from our own tribe? Tribalism and Christianity have nothing in common, though tribal thinking has become quite widespread in Christian circles.
I am horrified by what is happening to Christians, and I honestly don’t know what I would do in their position. But the ones who are persecuting Christians are also persecuting fellow Muslims and fellow Arabs. If you are not a jihadist, you are an infidel.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Truth!
Gram3 wrote:
The commenter said that he himself was “not” a christian. And he noted that Tim critiqued Cass’s article but made no mention of the persecution of christians in the middle east. Not quite the same thing. Tim handled it well.
Gram3 wrote:
That is pretty much where I am coming from. When I mentioned Shariah in Europe it was more about the tolerance for it in the civil law realm not criminal activity. That has not bode well for Muslim women but they are in no position in those communities to rebel.
I think what worries me is how Americans understand civil liberties vs religious freedom. Islam developed with a foundational theocracy understanding.
I am still shocked at how many evangelical pastors roll out the ” we must obey our governing authorities” sermons. We obey “laws” not men. That was sort of point of our Founding. :o)
Nancy wrote:
I should have read the comment on Tim’s site first before assuming.
@ Gram3:
agreed!
Lydia wrote:
That’s a principle that we should uphold against any culture that denies it. Many people who immigrate here do not have that in their country of origin, and not just Muslims. I believe we should concentrate on teaching that in our schools again. I do think that we have weakened our educational system when it comes to our core values in favor of multiculturalism gone amok.
America is unique in that we don’t have class system (though we are still afflicted with the effects of slavery), property rights and personal rights are protected for the most part, markets that are still free by global standards, and we aspire to rule of law rather than raw power or power of the mob. These are presupposed here and taken for granted. Not so in most of the world, and we should have the cultural confidence to uphold them in the face of militant cultural equivalentists.
@ Gram3:
Actually the guy who scolded him claimed he wasn’t even Christian, which made it even weirder.
Addendum @ Gram3:
Well, going back and looking at it again, maybe the guy didn’t intend it as a scold, but it could definitely have been read like one. That was my gut reaction to it, at least.
2nd addendum @ Gram3:
As in, the commenter claimed not to be Christian, not claimed that Tim wasn’t a Christian.
Really, really, I’m done w/addenda now. 😉
@ Daisy:
South Asian = from the Indian subcontinent, meaning India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. All of Pakistan and Bangladesh were part of India prior to the Partition. All were governed by the British under one name – India.
I think South Asian is meant to clearly convey that people are from the subcontinent, as opposed to East/Southeast Asian.
The terminology has more to do with geography than anything else. Please keep in mind that the British also ruled parts of East and Southeast Asia in the recent past.
The only Scripture one needs to sum up a truly Christian response to Cass’s call for genocide is “Jesus wept.” 🙁
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3 wrote:
Under truly brutal Arabic/Iranian dictatorships – the Shah, Assad Sr., Assad, Jr., Mubarak, Hussein, Saleh, et.al. – who deliberately weakened civil society, the only organized outlet for political/social/economic expression, or the “opposition” if you will, was through religious movements, such as the MB, who filled the void.
It can be argued strongly that the extremism of these groups is directly correlated to the brutality of these regimes. Like it or not, the extremists are, in many citizen’s minds, the only viable alternative to equally horrific tyrants. It’s an either/or proposition, there’s just no other option.
And puh-leeze, for the love of all that is good and holy, enough with the nonsensical bigotry that members of one of the world’s major religions are inherently predisposed to violence because of their beliefs.
30 Years’ War, anyone?
Reformation/counter-reformation, anyone?
Heck, how about more recent history – old Rev. Ian Paisley died today. While its true that he eventually joined a coalition government and grew close professionally and personally to Martin McGuiness, history is likely to judge him as a major obstacle to implementing peace in N. Ireland. And his anti-Catholic tirades are horrifying, frankly.
@ pcapastor:
Thanks for the tutorial on petitioning the clerk of Cass’s presbytery.
Just to be clear: must one be a PCA member or even current member of another Christian denomination to petition the clerk? Or can anyone write to the clerk?
Oh, and to the idiot biblical (TM) B.S. ramblings about Arabs and “the seed of Ishmael?”
World facts 101: the largest Muslim population in the world is currently in … Indonesia.
Ian Paisley was the Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster. Which was created in 1951 due to – you guessed it! – a schism with the Presbyterian Church of Ireland.
Typical for fundy Calvinists, no?
Do a bit of reading about Reverend Paisley, his support for paramilitary groups, his extreme anti-Catholicism, and his role in The Troubles before throwing out hyperbole about the unlikelihood of “Methodist terrorists” in the modern era, willya?
@ Gram3:
Gram3,
Amen to this and your previous comment about the Somali cab driver. For all her (USA) faults she’s still the best act to ever happen on the world stage.
Not bad for an old school FDR style socialist who also happens to be a gun owner huh? But then again I’ve always been a man of contradictions.
@ Rafiki:
As always, in the complex history of Ireland, there’s more to it than your assessment.
Dave wrote:
Oooh, check out this website, it fits your parameters perfectly ! heh http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/
@ numo:
Regardless of their nation origin, the one thing they have in common is that they are Muslim, and that is often not mentioned in UK reporting. Same is often true in most media in the USA.
@ Rafiki:
Yes, he was a very hateful man, and (imo) frightening.
Rafiki wrote:
The plain reading of the phrase from our Book of Church Order, “reports affecting their Christian character,” to me means that ANY source of credible reporting must lead to an investigation. I have seen some Presbyteries (I won’t guess at their motives, but I have my opinion) still refuse to act after having received credible “reports affecting the Christian character” of one of their pastors — even when those reports came from fellow PCA pastors in another Presbytery; but I have also seen other Presbyteries do their duty, and proceed to a fair and responsible investigation after having received reports from local citizens of a community, without even inquiring as to those citizens’ religious beliefs or lack thereof.
It has taken me a long time to realize that a random cross-slice of my denomination (and her ministers) will likely reveal the same percentages of virtuous, average, and abhorrent human beings as in the human race in general. Perhaps that is a little strong, but you get my point.
@ Gavin White:
Gavin – it’s a quick combox comment, not a PhD. dissertation or even an “assessment.” Am aware of the complexities of the Troubles.
Christianity has seen (and continues to see, and will see in the future) an unholy intermingling of distorted theology to pursue the quest for political power resulting in virulent extremism and sectarianism.
The faith is not immune from such abuses – and of course, nor are any of the other major world religions.
This isn’t about drawing some sort of kumbaya theological equivalency, it’s about being good watchmen/watchwomen 🙂 and carefully examining our own house prior to impulsively tossing rocks externally.
pcapastor wrote:
Am sure it was a bit difficult to come to that realization – frankly deep down it still sorta goes against the fibre of my being as a PCAer, as I imagine it’s hard for members of all denominations. “Not my denomination, really?!”
Lord by your grace give us clear eyes to see and accept things as they really are!
@ numo:
Well, as even the BBC acknowledged when reporting his death, his gruff public (I.e. political) persona belied a quiet, family man.
Caricature is not character.
@ Rafiki:
Not quite sure what you mean by ” impulsively tossing rocks externally” or who is doing the tossing?
Gram3 wrote:
Remember the axiom of an honor/shame culture:
IF NOBODY FINDS OUT ABOUT MY SIN, I AM NOT SHAMED.
(And the corollary: AND DEAD MEN TELL NO TALES.
Put the two together, and it explains a LOT of the Middle East.)
Actually, while I’m very glad the Islamphobe article was taken down (it was horrible), I thought the Gungor article was informative and well written. If they’re challenging the authority and accuracy of Scripture, that should be known. I don’t even know why Rob Bell bothers to read the Bible anymore. He doesn’t like what it says very much it seems, as evidenced in his chronic restructuring of every passage that makes him uncomfortable.
Annanias and Saphira possibly had a pre existing heart condition, and didn’t really drop dead because of deception towards God? Seriously? Lol. Mr. Bell needs the t-shirt I saw on one of our elementary students once. It said:
“I make stuff up”.
Gavin White wrote:
The “more to it” that I saw with my own eyes was the Paisley photo in pride of place on the mantelpiece of each Free P home and how his followers would drive miles out of their way to avoid going into an RC owned business. Paisley promoted his view of three groups of people; believers, unbelievers and the RCs. It was nice that he ended his life in an apparently more gracious frame of mind than when his spittle flew in years past. Thankfully many have cut themselves free from the FreeP influence. That bodes well for both peace and the gospel to spread in NI. That’s my non-complex 2p on the subject.
Here is how it works…you either are a Child of God or a child of satan…there is no gray area. Those who do not worship the ONE TRUE GOD…are worshiping demonic entities.