The Real William Wallace-Wikipedia
Here is a link to David Robertson's blog, The Wee Flea. Not only is he a pastor in Scotland, but he debates atheists and has drawn the attention of Richard Dawkins. He has also had input into Ligonier Ministries in which he is regarded as a learned Reformed theologian.
I discuss a comment on TWW by Pastor Robertson on a post in which I criticized his remarks aimed at Janet Mefferd. Mark Driscoll: Dissing Driscoll: What the Church can learn from Pastor Mark's fall from grace. My goal in this response is to address some of his concerns since they seem to be issues that we have raised here at TWW. I make an assumption that there are differences in how things are addressed in Scottish culture as opposed to the United States.
I have responded to his entire comment. His words are in bold.
I would be grateful if you would allow some corrections to your rather inaccuarate article citing myself. I assume that given you are devoted to truth and stoping abusive and misleading behaviour you will allow this: There are several errors which you could have rectified if you had asked me first.
1) I did not call those who are concerned about the ministry of Mark Driscoll ‘smug’. I was referring to a particular interview in which a couple of people congratulated themselves about how wonderful, courageous etc they were. There was no mention of Mark Driscoll. As it happens I think that Janet Mefferd did the church a great service in exposing the plagarism, especially in her initial interview.
I do not know if you understand the tremendous pressure that was put on Janet Mefferd when she bravely confronted what now appears to be a widespread problem of plagiarism by Mark Driscoll. Here, here, here are some examples (including one that involved SGM) but I urge you to Google the situation. It is not beyond reason to think that enormous pressure was applied which may have included a threat to her job security.
In fact, did you know that Janet was called an "enemy of the church" by Lyall Mercer? Due to the generosity of a TWW reader, we took out a paid ad to counter this accusation by an Australian PR executive who appeared to be trying to get business in the United States by going after Mefferd.
Since your post was titled Dissing Driscoll it was not unreasonable to assume that Mefferd was discussing Driscoll. You are judging both her motives(self congratulatory) and tone as "smug." I think it is rather difficult to judge such things. In fact, as my pastor has said "Even on my best days, my motives are mixed." I think we do best not speculating motives or tone and instead address the words which are being said. Sometimes "smug" and "relief at being vindicated" can sound an awful lot alike.
2) My one problem was with the constant (several times a day) tweeting with what seemed glee about the fall of MD. I think I reached the end when Janet called for people to join in a demo at a service of public worship. That may be the way that things are done in the US but I don’t believe it is biblical.
Do you know that the protest was conceived, planned and executed by former members and pastors at Mars Hill? Janet had absolutely nothing to do with that. However, she, as well as I, supported those whose voices had longed been silenced by Mars Hill. Also, this protest was big news in the US. She is a talk show host and this is of interest to her listening audience.
We do not have a state church in the United States. We have many churches, like Mars Hill, which have no ecclesiastical authority except their elder board which is really a Board of Accountability. Until recently, it was stocked by outsiders and Driscoll and King Sutton Turner. (You do know that Executive Pastor Sutton Turner addresses himself as King since this is biblical, right?) The history of the change of bylaws and the subsequent fall out is both complex and disturbing.
As for calling such a protest being unbiblical, I would think that you must need to say the same thing about Martin Luther. That little stunt at Wittenberg caused quite a dustup.
3) There HAS been a level of schadenfreude about what has happened to MD.
What level and by whom? How do you judge that? Should people not be relieved when an injustice has been defined?
I assume that you have proper church procedures and that you do not indulge in trial by media? I do not know about MD and am not in a position to make pronouncements about what I do not know. But I find this constant political style campaigning in the church, distasteful and unbiblical.
What proper procedures? The ones by the Presbyterians, the Baptists (which ones?) Assembly of God, etc. We have about 20,000 denominations in the United States. There are roughly 314 million people in the United States. Around 40% attend church in a given week which means that @122 million are in church. So what procedure applies to whom?
What happens when things go terribly wrong and there is no procedure in place to appeal to anyone outside the given church? Luther faced that problem and he dealt with it. Yes, I do believe that the group of people involved in the Mars Hill protests are adhering to a long tradition of protest that gave us our name "Protestants." I know some of them and have spent time discussing the issues with them. These are not vengeful people. They actually love Mars Hill.
They find this course of action distasteful as do I. Most medical procedures are distasteful but are necessary to achieve a cure.
I do not know what you mean by "constant political campaigning."
Of course you can justify it by saying that you are only ‘caring’ for those who have been hurt by MD – but why do you then seek to use the same bullying emotive tactics that you accuse him off.
Please read our blog. We link to posts, article, etc. to document our concerns. So, unless you document to what "bullying" and "emotive" tactics you are referring, I cannot answer you. When I wrote about what you said, I linked to and addressed the specifics.
4) I happen to believe in biblical church discipline, not trail by media, or who shouts loudest wins.
I am thrilled that you brought up 'biblical church discipline." We have written extensively on the subject. I find church discipline an amorphous term, ill defined but loudly proclaimed by many. I have written many posts on the issue. Here is one and here is my personal favorite. I believe that church discipline, along with the consequences, should be defined a priori. I call it "the rules of the game."
Would you go to a country that did not define the laws and the expected possible punishment? Can you imagine the confusion? I know that Scotland is far smaller than the Unites States. But I bet you know of instances in which a church pastor and/or elder board enacted punishment on an attendee who simply asked the wrong question? In fact, here is an example of inappropriate church discipline applied to our good friend, and TWW hero, Todd Wilhelm.
Do I believe in church discipline? Of course, when it is done openly and fairly with the rules of the game defined in advance. In 1 Corinthians 5 an example of church discipline is laid out. Some guy was sleeping with his mother in law and then claiming that this was allowed due to freedom in Christ. In other words, it was a big deal. Have you read about how Mars Hill has handled church discipline? Here are a couple of stories that should give you an example of this link and link. Here is what Driscoll had to say about Meyer and Petry. Is this the type of discipline to which you are referring? If so, I would never attend such a church.
It is also important to realize that when a church and its pastor clamor for public attention, appearing on TV shows, etc. jumping up and down to be recognized, they should accept that the public will look and respond. However, the response may not be to their liking. Play in the public eye and expect to be critiqued in the public eye.
5) I also happen to believe that there are far more important things to be concerned about than one US mega church and all the almost inevitable fallout from an unbiblical ecclesiology combined with human sinfulness and a commericalist populist church culture. I just don’t get why people are so obsessed and angry with this (other than those who have been directly affectd. It has all the hallmarks of a self-righteous lynch mob.
My husband often tells me that I have a high emotional quotient. In other words, I care about others, deeply. There are night that I have trouble sleeping as I think about the dear people out there who have been treated like human detritus by the church. As for being self righteous, I allow comments on this blog that most other blogs will not allow. There is nothing like getting called a "witch' to take one's ego down a notch.
Years ago, a representative of SNAP(a group that fights child sex abuse in the church) told me to never forget why I am blogging. She said to always keep the faces of the victims in front of me. We blog because we care about those victims-the lost, the letdown and the looking. We are of the opinion that all of the public pastors who jump up and down to get attention have lots of people to defend them. There are very few who care about the little guy, the victims. It is far sexier to defend celebrity. We care first, and foremost, about the others.
We do not accept advertisement on this site because we want everyone to know that this is one place that is not about making money. Thank heavens that our families agree with us. We have turned down a number of media requests because we do not do this for self aggrandizement.
Do you know that the best time I have had recently was traveling with Deb up to DC (at our own expense) and meeting with people who have been hurt by the ministry of Sovereign Grace Ministries? They are what this blog is all about. I would rather spend a week with them as opposed to a week at a conference with the next celebrity pastor.
The level of gossip, accusation and slander allowed on this site is quite astonishing – all of course done ‘in the name of Christ’. It is very depressed to read just how Keller etc are just in it for the money.
Ah, the old "gossip" word. I highly recommend that you read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Accusations of gossip can be a clever way to shut down conversation.
I believe the word "slander" is the most misused and overused word in the church today. I do not know about Scotland but in the United States slander is a verbal statement. Libel is a written statement. In the United States, in order to prove libel, you must show that the writer knowingly spread a lie with the motive of causing damage to a person's good reputation. I wrote a post on this matter in which I explored what the Bible has to say about this. It is one of my favorite posts. Here is a link to Slander or an Inconvenient Truth.
I know you are currently in an astonished state, but I would ask that, when you calm down, you would do what I do and give me some examples of libelous writing.
Now, let me explain another thing about this blog. Many people have left the faith in the US due to disillusionment with the church. Perhaps this has not happened in Scotland. This blog is not targeted to just Christians. It is our goal to hear what those outside the cocoon of the church have to say about the church. I spent years reading at ExChristians.Net in order to understand what turns people off to the faith. I came to realize that Christian do not listen well and look for excuses not to listen. I learned that it was far more important to listen to what they say then to critique how they say it. Christians often write off those who leave as "heathens who were never really Christians." I don't believe that is always true.
Have you heard about the "nones?" There are many who frequent this site. We wrote a post on this subject. Did you know that many of the "nones" are still believers? We have lost them. That is one of the reasons that we started E Church. It is a place for those who do not, at this time, wish to attend church.
We decided we wanted to hear what people actually think about the church. So we allow strong criticism on this blog. We want to hear from those who have walked away. Many of them do not use the polite Christianese that makes us feel comfortable. But they are real. I want to hear their perspective, even if it is harsh. That is why we allow ourselves to be critiqued. Believe it or not, I think Tim Keller is a big boy and can take criticism as well. If we can't then we have no business engaging the public. It is not a Christian camp out there.
This openness allowed an angry agnostic to express himself here. Some people were annoyed with him Thankfully, the kindness of many on this blog, in response to his commentary, over a year, had a profound affect on him. Last November, some of us traveled to DC to watch his baptism. Please read his story here, here, and here. The change was so incredible that he wrote 140 letters to people all over the US, asking for forgiveness. I would love for you to meet him one day.
(Digression: So how did you feel about Driscoll's William Wallace II? I thought you might have an opinion since you live in Scotland.)
Thats why I tweeted to Janet – please move on. I should have known better. Sadly for me it has resulted in heaps of dogs abuse. I should have known. Ironically this week I also got dogs abuse from someone called Church O’Neal, who some of you may know. He preached a 90 minute sermon against him and let loose his followers on to me.
I am not sure that you should ever issue a command to "move along." It sounds a bit controlling, at least to our American ears. As for Chuck O'Neal, he sued my good friend, Julie Anne Smith. She prevailed. He has no influence in the US. He runs a tiny church and I think the only ones who have heard of him are those who follow stupid lawsuits.
You say you got dogs abuse? Why does that bother you? We are critiqued on a daily basis by quite a few folks. I like criticism. It means we are getting under the skin of people and that means there is hope for change. Let me make a suggestion. We started a list called "What the World is Saying About the About the Wartburg Watch." We have a good chuckle over these words. In other words, don't take yourself too seriously. Laugh a lot. My husband says it is good for the heart.
What is the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch?
- Wartburg witches
- Obscure
- Wenches
- O glorious wenches
- Minions of Satan
- Hatemongers
- x#&**#xx!@
- Narcissistic zeroes
- Morons
- Warthogs
- Quite a gossip column
- How did we ever get along without you?
- Assyrians
- Philistines
- Full of ****
- Bored housewives
- Yellow journalism
- Discernment Divas
- Feminist Heretic
- Discernamentalist Diva Mafia
- Poor reading comprehension
- In Need of ESL
- Anti-Christian bigot
- E Pharisee
- Discernment blogger
I feel kind of dirty. Memo to self – Keep out of American church wars…its a filthy business.
I am sorry that you feel this way. You know, Jesus left His perfect home to come and live among us. I would imagine that he found us all somewhat difficult. Yet, He loved all of us "filthy" people. It is nice to know that everything is clean and nice in Scotland's church dustups. I will need to explore your churches in the future.
May God have mercy on us all. As I sit in my study listening to 100 muslims about to have a ‘party for peace and harmony’ in our neighbours house, and heading to preach tomorrow to some broken people, the doings or not of MD and those who delight in his falling are of little interest to me. How does any of this help the kingdom? How does it do anything more than feed egos, fuel hurts and confirm prejudices? I pray the Lords blessing on you all and I pray for MD and Janet and any others of His servants, sons and daughters.
- How did it help the kingdom when Nathan confronted David?
- How did it help the kingdom when Jesus turned over the tables and called the Pharisees "dogs?"
- How did help the kingdom when Paul outlined the issue in 1 Corinthians 5?
- How did it help the kingdom when Luther revolted?
- How did it help the kingdom when Martin Luther King Jr exposed racism in the church?
- How does it help the kingdom when pedophiles in the church are exposed?
- How does it help the kingdom when pastors who make millions off their followers are called to account?
- How does it help the church when an abusive personality is brought to light?
- How does it help the kingdom when we expose a plagiarizer in the pulpit?
I'll leave those answers up to you.
May God bless you and your ministry.
Dee, I heart you!
And I’d like to add that, as someone who’s been browbeaten by the world (via sexual abuse) and the church (a certain “Christian” counseling ministry), this blog feels like a HAVEN. Truly. Dee and Deb have tried to create as safe a place as possible for those of us who’ve had to flee from (or weren’t able to flee to) church.
Here’s one other reason to care. I live in the Washington, D.C. area which is exactly 2,763 miles from Seattle. (4447 kilometers for your European folk) Seattle is one the West Coast and I am on the East Coast. Yet I popped into an Evangelical Free Church in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. and saw them using Mark Driscoll’s material and partnering with his organization. At the welcome booth this former agnostic had to explain to this woman how I wanted nothing to do with a manipulative, and abusive organization who’s “Heir” is known for talking about the Biblical basis for blow jobs. You have that kind of conversation with a 60ish year old woman David Robertson in a church lobby and tell me why we should just turn away. As for me I stand with Rob Smith, Dave Kraft, Paul Petry, Bent Meyer, Kevin Potts, and all the people hammered by this cult in Seattle.
Dee, as one of the agnostics who frequent this blog, I want to say Thank You. You and many others here have shown me that not all 21st century christians are science denying, misogynistic greedy bastards.
Dee, he may think I abused him for saying that Janet has endured quite enough abuse for her pursuit of the truth and some normal emotion in regards to all she’s gone through is warranted. He may also think I abused him for stating that he does not understand the level of damage Driscoll has done in the Anerucan church. I think however, bearing in mind my own understanding of British culture and evangelicalism, I spoke fairly and he feels unjustly targeted. Chuck ONeal was wrong to go after him, and I also said so to David. It is endemic in evangelicalism on both sides of the pond to critique anyone who disagrees with a pastor. There is a real problem of us vs. them between “ordinary Christians and “godly” leaders that enables pastors to assume if you question them you are divisive. Pastors need these blinders removed. Perhaps it could have been a learning moment to be criticized by ONeal. Perhaps there is some cultural difference in how we communicate emotions (or not). In any case, what is not being understood here by many who disapprove of this blog is that since Driscoll is known in the UK that tells me it matters to the whole Body. His books are influencing more than just American pastors, I am sure. Beyond that, he is a symptom of a greater evangelical problem, a dysfunction that enforces the “don’t talk” rule because messiness could cause division. I’m sorry, but it’s too late for that. The church us already divided, and it would behoove us to be honest about that and talk it out. I don’t think the evangelical church can survive without a blast of humble honesty between us all, and the willingness to admit our individual differences are ok. Think Paul and Barnabas. Some evangelicals have things so pinned down that they think one person in that argument was right and the other was wrong. However, the Bible never says that. Honest expressions of emotion are not what Christ ever condemned or critiqued. He spoke of our fruits and got to our heart motives. But only He can tell what is really in our hearts. I think the best we can do is judge clear unrepentant behavior, not assume motive for emotion. And sorry, but telling someone who has been burnt to just get over it is bad bad advice. Healing if any kind is a process we must not truncate. And there has not yet been any justice. I also shared this article with David on twitter. I prefer this Brit’s analysis, thank you very much. We must not judge cultural reactions if we haven’t lived in the culture. That would be my advice to Driscoll not just David, FYI.
http://luthermatic.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-crime-of-partiality_28.html?m=1
Ps. Thank you TWW for all you do.
Hey, when are you going to publish MY loving, yet sensitive and thoughtful critique of TWW? What am I? Chopped liver?
@ Sara:
Me too!
Because of being hurt by the church, when I did finally let God in, he led me to a wonderful counselor. She was on the woman’s council at the church I began attending. She spent an enormous amount of time helping me sort through the spiritual abuse of my past. Because of two extremes from my past I was afraid to ever find out whether or not she was getting any monetary compensation from the church. It was a nagging question to my mind. It would have been a catch 22 for me. If she was getting paid I would not have trusted her. If she wasn’t getting paid I would not have wanted to impose on her time. It wasn’t until we were good friends a few years later and after we had both left that church because it too was becoming abusive that I was brave enough to ask her. She was actually offended at first that I even asked if she was paid, she thought I knew her better than that. She did disclose though that the church had indeed offered her money to counsel people. Anyway, I just mention this because if it wasn’t for her I don’t know where I’d be today, I was on the verge of totally giving up again. That was 23 years ago. Dee, don’t let anyone deter you. You are saving people in so many ways and one of them is exactly what you said about not doing it for the money, but rather are spending your own money. We who are blessed by people like you pay it forward, you won’t know until heaven how many people you have touched for the good in that kind of chain reaction.
In my experience with preachers, they LOVE to judge, criticize, mock, belittle, harass, badger, degrade, dismiss, condemn, but how dare any one do that to them. Preachers can dish it out, but can not take their own medicine.
As someone who was sexually abused by a church going, bible loving, bible verse quoting, southern Baptist misogynistic Christian man, this website makes me feel like there are a few Christians who hate it, and care. The Christians I grew up with did not hate it or care. Thank you Miss Dee, you Rock!
Apologies for typos. Result of animated typing with one finger on my iPhone. Thanks autocorrect. 😉
Also, David, if you read this, some things you have communicated are true. However, please try to understand people who have been shushed are unlikely to take kindly to being told to move on. It is important the church be a voice against bullying, and since there is no Biblical way to hold Driscoll accountable, people have taken a peaceful but firm stand publicly to protect others. I do not see that as unBiblical but in line with principles William Wilberforce and other great Christians would support. FYI, I lived my teen years around the corner from Hannah More’s birthplace in Fishponds. All the best to you.
@ Melody:
@ nmgirl:
I am so glad you are here.
Small typo: x#&**#xx!@ is actually spelled x#&**#xi!@
(although the Old English spelling is close to what you wrote)
Melody wrote:
They are. you should see the emails we get from folks in the UK. They are afraid to say anything because their libel laws are different over there.
It fascinates me when people do not think we can critique pastors who are dominating the airways. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Sorry-the minute you go public-advertising your church, putting your sermons on line and charging for your books, you have left your little environment and have arrived on the big boy stage.
You want my money? You get to hear what I think about you.
srs wrote:
Thanks for the laugh, I haven’t had many today.
Guest wrote:
I am so sorry for the pain that you endured at the hands of supposed Christians. Frankly, the fact that you are still speaking and going on means that you are the hero and you rock!
Patti wrote:
That is why I couldn’t do sales. I never wanted anyone to think that I was only talking to them because I needed their money. It’s not that I think sales are evil. It’s just that God called me in a different direction.
sigh… gonnae no dae tha’, hen. It’ll no be guid fer ye.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
Yes.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
Yes.
@ Eagle:
Eagle, you are RIGHT ON!! The moment a “pastor” publishes his works for a wide audience, he loses his ability to say “keep it local.” 🙂
In other news, my husband JUST had his job interview in Washington DC today–and it is going to be a long wait while we find out if he gets the job. If he does, may I meet some of you TWW DC peeps? 🙂 Sincerely, Taylor Joy/Calvinist Janeway
nmgirl wrote:
I’m almost afraid to ask, but from which of the four are we excused? 😉
I wonder if David Robertson has read the transcript of Driscoll’s “sermon” at that church in Edinburgh?
Here the link:https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dg4fc37g_6fjdd38c8&hl=en/
Eagle, you are right. The world is small in some ways. One mega church, one parenting guru, one publisher, one person sitting in front of a screen; they can all have a global influence. Or at least a conversation across the globe.
David Robertson coming here to correct us shows that.
dee wrote:
Meanwhile, at the same time:
Calvinist Janeway wrote:
Don’t tell me that Calvinist Janeway is a Dee sock-puppet?!?!?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Great minds, similarly inspired. Except I would be the Almost Arminian Janeway.
@ Eagle:
I want David to talk with you!
@ Heather:
He will probably choke on his tea if he listens to it.
I just realized who this gentleman is from debates he had with Matt Dillahunty. Oh how lucky you are to get his attention. ◔_◔
One of your best.
@ dee:
I think you forgot to add “soulless jackals” to your list of insults. 😉
Though in fairness to Robertson, I can relate to his disgust at watching the antics that go on in the American church. The celebrity pastor/megachurch culture is pretty sad IMO and I’ve resolved to stay as far away from it as possible, forever.
David r. Of Dundee–we’re it not for this blog and a few others like it I would be unaware of the damage to people and to Christianity done by Mark Driscoll. I know your church magazine gave him some space a few years ago. He needs to be exposed for what he is–narcissistic, vulgar, scheming, misogynistic, violent, and a blot on the Gospel of J esus Christ. I am sure you know only about 6% of all the things Driscoll has done and continues to do. do you know he now has a right wing PR firm to try to restore his reputation. Let Americans be watchdogs so that naive people can escape from a cult leader. You are doing good things on Scotland.
God bless.
Re: the tweeted “glee” about the fall of MD:
Personally, I won’t be tempted toward “glee” until MD actually resigns (unlikely) is fired (impossible), or dwindles away into relative obscurity after several years of sheeple fleeing his pen. Right now, he’s most assuredly NOT fallen (aside from the fallen from grace meaning, which happened long ago) except in the esteem of some of his former comrades. He may get along fine without their support, and continue to rule Mars Hill as the “teacher” and “local church pastor” he assured the flock he will continue to be.
“Glee” has taken on a bad taste for me since Doug Wilson chastised all those supposedly filled with “glee” over Doug Phillips’ resignation.
I notice Jonathan Merritt is likewise chastising folks for having “glee” about Driscoll.
And a quote from Merritt:
“Too often we forfeit all manner of joy, like the elder brother in Jesus’ powerful parable of the prodigal, because we want those who’ve hurt us or others to pay, pay, pay. But what we often find when we thirst for retribution is that the pain of the offender never fully quenches. We pant for more payment, more pain, more shame to satisfy our anger, hurt, disappointment. As the root of bitterness grows deep, its sour fruit hangs heavy. – See more at: http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/08/24/mark-driscoll-resign-mars-hill-christians-celebrate/#sthash.eJsWVzIj.dpuf
His playing of the “bitterness” card didn’t exactly win me over.
And what’s this “retribution” and “pay” Christians supposedly thirst for? The wish for Driscoll to resign? It wouldn’t kill him. His family wouldn’t suffer. He may not be in Gates/Allen/Ballmer territory, but I doubt Grace will need to go to work. The wish for Driscoll to exonerate Petry et al? Would that be “punishment” (as Seneca asks)?
Would it be “pain” and “shame” to Driscoll if, after his 6 weeks of soul-searching, he at the least changes the by-laws and lets the members vote on a real board of some sort? Would that hurt too much?
The issue of the subjugation of women in the church and in the home continues to be a hot topic. Taking a serious look at what we find in history enlightens our understanding and helps us to see where we are at with this topic today. Knowing the historical record helps us to push back against flawed thinking among church leaders and empowers us to speak out for justice!
I am delighted to announce that my website designer has posted a new article on my website. It is entitled: Women in the Church—American History, Slavery, and Feminism.
This article looks into the historical record regarding the influence of ‘evangelical feminism’ especially in the 19th century. It looks at slavery and how women were treated in this era. There is much pertinent information available.
Go to: http://www.ChurchExiters.com
From the home page, scroll down to the very bottom to: Newest Articles.
dee wrote:
Totally. 😉 beyond that, I also read something interesting in Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan on UK libel laws. Apparently the Moonies sued The Daily Mail for reporting they brainwashed members and cut them off from their families and lost because those facts were proved in court, so by law the Moonies had to pay $2 million in legal fees to cover both parties.
Honestly bearing in mind that evangelical Christians seem IMO loathe to go to the courts or media in the UK I don’t see that there should be such fear of speaking out over there, though the culture is very very reserved. It seems to me there is more risk of frivolent and abusive lawsuits for speaking the truth in the USA, and yet here we are all talking. I think the only way the evangelical culture can change for the better is if people stop being stopped by fear of human beings. Btw that Driscoll sex sermon in Scotland was truly terrible. No respect that children, not just singles were likely present. Horrific.
Just read the doc at the link above re: Song of Solomon
ugh wow wow wow – that was so wrong I couldn’t stop reading it…
But apparently not that sermon….
I for one am grateful for Dee and Deb! You two have more cojones that 10 Driscolls! Thank you for showing us how to engage with others with such grace. I know it hurts to be called names, but ya’ll’s responses show confidence and a true ability to engage others with love. Thanks for all you do!
Dave A A wrote:
I haven’t been gleeful at all. In fact, I’ve been downright pessimistic. I believe that unless something drastic happens, Mark Driscoll is going to remain in his place at the head of his church and personality cult.
That, David Robertson and Jonathan Merritt, is not glee. It’s just an observation based on years of cult-watching.
@ Hester: don’t be fooled – evangelicals/charismatics in the UK have their share of craziness and off-base theology and practice. One reason I can say this: the head honcho at That Church (the one that kicked me out) is Scottish and has *lots* of ties with like-minded fellow travelers back in the UK.
D&D,
This was probably one of the best posts I’ve ever read at your site.
It clearly lays out what you do and why. It cleared away some of the doubts I had in my own mind and heart about what motivates you. I may not always agree with what you say and how you say it, but I certainly have an incredible respect and, yes I have to say it, affection for you both.
And, by the way, this comment made me laugh out loud:
” I know you are currently in an astonished state, but I would ask that, when you calm down, if you would do what I do and give me some examples of libelous writing”
Keep fighting the the good fight!
And
THANK YOU!!
Narrow
Thank you for your kind comment.
Dave A A wrote:
Yes!
I think you both provide a vital service to the Church and you and other bloggers are make the playing field a little more level. The higher ups in the corporation and many of the franchise owners dont like that. Keep it up.
“I just don’t get why people are so obsessed and angry with this (other than those who have been directly affected. It has all the hallmarks of a self-righteous lynch mob.”
Wow. Total lack of empathy. Does he not understand how many people have been hurt by Driscoll, directly and indirectly?
Being committed to stopping a known abuser from continuing his abuse isn’t “obsession.” There is certainly some anger involved, understandably.
Excellent response! Dee, you took the time to answer each one of these pointed comments. You dismantled this pile of bricks with good common sense and heart motivation to see that awareness is raised regarding ecclesiastical injustice.
As Margaret Heffernan has spoken on two TED Talks, she reiterates the fact that ‘things happen’ when ordinary people take on the task to be whistleblowers!!
Margaret stated that ordinary people are more afraid of the silence than they are of the potential for conflict.
She affirmed that it is more important to ‘dare to see’ and to ‘dare to break the silence’!
One talk is called: The Dangers of Willful Blindness and the other talk is called: Dare to Disagree.
What she can say in 13 min. can inspire each of us to press on.
http://www.ted.com/talks/margaret_heffernan_the_dangers_of_willful_blindness
http://www.ted.com/talks/margaret_heffernan_dare_to_disagree
All the best as y’all keep engaging in Kingdom pursuits!
One of your many fans!
Not just lack of empathy. Lack of understanding of the influence this pervasive lack of empathy has on the culture of many churches not even affiliated with Mars Hill due to the Christians consuming Driscoll’s books without awareness of abuse or dysfunctional dynamics.
Mr.H wrote:
x#&**#xx!@
You mean I’m not the only one who gets called by that name? (In my case, that comes with the territory where I work.)
And I totally agree with your comment Mr. H.
Why doesn’t the church understand anger may signal grief over or at sin?
Melody wrote:
By the way, I just saw a link to the following video over at the Phoenix Preacher blog. All I can say is Lord, have mercy.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/08/you-are-dumb-sheep-how-dare-you.html
Great reply. I particularly liked your response to his question about how this helps the kingdom.
dee wrote:
Yes, this!! I figure that when some guy (calling himself a pastor) gets up & screams for attention, he needs to expect that not everybody is going to agree with him. If he needs to be treated with kid gloves, lest we damage his, ahem, Naughty Bits, he needs to stop waving them to us every bluidy time he stands up in the pulpit.
Dave A A wrote:
On that glad day, I’ll buy us all a round.
In the meantime, I continue to pray for the safety of MD’s wife, children, & those still hypnotized by his serpentine heresies & outright abuse–of all kinds. Dinnae kid yourslef, David; this is no “pastor”; this is one who, like Screwtape & Co.; is “seeking whom he may destroy”.
Please believe me: I mean that last completely & entirely literally.
Hester wrote:
There goes yet another name I don’t have to myslef…..:-(
This is such an EXCELLENT response.
Dee and Deb,
Of course, his charges are absurd. One point to be made, however, is that he may be looking at this whole issue from a British\Scottish vs. American viewpoint. My experience with British evangelicals is that they don’t often understand how extreme American evangelicalism is compared to their own country’s form of evangelical belief. That is not to say there isn’t extremism in British evangelicalism as well, particularly in the so called Restorationist branch of Charismatic belief that is now so prevalent throughout British apostolic networks. But many British evangelicals, particularly from the British variation of Reformed belief, are just not as – if you’ll pardon the phrase – “wacked out” as American Calvinists, and thus they tend to see media reports about American Calvinism as left wing propaganda. Just a supposition. I’ve been in dialogue for years with a British Calvinist sci-fi author (pretty famous in Christian science fiction circles) and he would not fit the American form of Calvinism in most respects – he accepts an ancient earth, seems open to evolutionary theory, has speculated on the possible ensoulment of artifical intelligence, is quite supportive of environmentalism, etc. You would seldom see that in American Calvinism, at least in my opinion.
John Weaver wrote:
I love Christian science fiction. Is there any possible way for you to tell me his name? If you do not want to say it publicly, could you email me?
Now, it is my understanding that people like Driscoll are gaining followers amongst the young, hip pastors of the UK. Also, Terry Virgo is a constant supporter, I have also received a number of emails saying that the hierarchical, authority driven, Neo-Calvinist doctrine, is beginning to affect churches. Is tho true?
@ John Weaver:
John,
I have emailed Dee a couple of times recently addressing the point that you raise about differences of perspective on this side of the Atlantic. I am sorry to say that the New Calvinists have well and truly landed here as well in the return journey of the Mayflower.
Regards
Dave A A wrote:
Me neither. And he mangled the “root of bitterness” exegesis, too. It is the “root that causes bitterness” or the “poisonous root” that needs to be dug up before it poisons more. So, he got it exactly backwards, and actually proved the point of those who want Driscoll out of the pulpit so that his influence (ability to poison more people and cause more bitterness) is gone.
@ Gavin White:
GAVIN !!!!! Please stroke your pet haggis for me…
@ Haitch:
Hello Haitch. It’s nice to be remembered! (Even) older but (perhaps) wiser. For the first time in my life I am now official a “none”. Hope you are well
Gavin
Dee and Deb,
In honor of my Scottish ancestors, I salute you as Fusiliers of the Monstrous Regiment of Women.
Gram3 wrote:
Oh, and if David is reading, that is a compliment to these ladies.
Gram 3
A Fusilier! I am humbled.
Melody wrote:
Because it might upset the Church Ladies.
Everything is supposed to be so NICE NICE NICE…
dee wrote:
I think you are both winsome, too. Thought it would be fun to play around with Knox a little bit. 😉
Barb Orlowski
Thank you for those articles you posted on Church Exciters! I read both of your newest ones and found them to be intriguing and informative. We do need to learn from history and also put these highly volatile issues into context. Spiritual issues, such as certain traditional “values” (women, slavery, authority, etc.) we hold dear often are misconstrued and false. These views are just extra baggage we carry around with us for years until abuse hits the fan and we start taking notice. I thoroughly enjoyed reading them- accurate history teaches us to make accurate decisions and choices in how we deal with the present and future.
I found this link to Practical Theology for Women(wendy Alsop) on the WtHatchet site.
It has so much truth that I think it’s worth a read for people on all sides of this mess–including those of us who have a pessimistic turn of mind
!
http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2014/08/blessings-and-cursing-reflections-on.html?spref=fb
singleman wrote:
Wow! Now That’s the PR person I think Driscoll would REALLY prefer on his team.
@ Gavin White:
Gavin
Sometimes I think I am a glutton for punishment.
Your interactions, in the past, particularly behind the scenes have been alarming to me. So here’s the deal. I prayed for you this morning. I am going to give you another chance. However, the lack of an apology to me or discussion with me of your past antics make me feel somewhat less than hopeful for the future.
I am saying this publicly so that our readers will understand that there has been a very difficult history with this blog and you. Every comment of yours will go to moderation. That means your comments may appear slowly since the two of us plan to be away for Labor Day weekend.
If I become concerned, even once, you will be banned, once again. Also if you get banned and you ever send those comments to me behind the scenes, you will never be allowed on this blog again.
@ molly245:
Do you know of any online stories that I could read where one of these people who experienced good from Mark Driscoll has laid out in detail what exactly was good? Maybe that would help me. I only know people whose good they say isn’t exactly good in my interpretation, I’m sure thet know what is good, and I’m talking about spiritual specifics, not the practical life advice like get a job and quit your bad habits that any Dr. Phil fan can teach.
Eagle wrote:
I feel like I’ve been saying this until I can’t speak. If Mars Hill were one church in one city doing all this, I would feel bad, then say, whatever. But MD has published, spoke all over the country (and world), and created networks of churches to spread his influence throughout the country. He has been on national television pushing his warped theology. Because of all of that, this is not a local problem for one church anymore.
Meant to say I’m not sure they know what is good.
@ molly245:
I read this post. Here is what I would like to emphasize. Good did happen at Mars Hill in spite of Driscoll’s behavior. The glory for that good goes to God, not to Mars Hill or Mark Driscoll. Far too much emphasis was and is placed on the *leaders.*
Let me liken this to Eagle’s situation. A terrible event occurred in his life. It was a betrayal and could have had serious consequences to his well being. However, God worked in that situation and brought Eagle to a profound place in his faith. I would never say that the *friend* did good. God did good in spite of the friend’s betrayal.
God was with Paul in the prison cell. God was with the martyrs in the Coliseum. But God did not condone the use of violence against His people. What the Romans did was bad.
I have no doubt that Driscoll can do some nice things. Heck, Bernie Madoff supported some great charities. That does not mean he isn’t a crook. Just like it does not mean that Driscoll isn’t an embarrassment.
For me, I have actually been regretting the day I tried to do just what Wendy has done. I had been warning so much about Mark Driscoll’s teachings. Then when he preached a good sermon in Quest Field in 2011 I posted it on my FB page commenting that since I was always negative about him I thought this was good. I guess I was wanting people to also not think I was all bad and pessimistic. Like me please. At the time I thought my motive was pure, but as they say even the best can be mixed. I am regretting it because I wonder how many young people may have given him a chance after my post and I’m responsible for their spiritual confusion now. I am a coach so many of my FB friends are young people, all over the greater Seattle area.
ar wrote:
I think this is called METASTASIZING.
I don’t think our Scottish pastor realizes how international the church is. When the Bakers fell from grace in the 80s, many of my South American Christian friends (where I served as a missionary) watched their translated programs via satellite. They were quite dismayed by what happened (and I could cite other examples). MD has been exported to many other countries, and his followers need to know the truth about him.
@ Patti:
I checked out Levette Humphrey’s Facebook page. Some of her listed favorites include Creflo Dollar, John Hagee, T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen and Fred Price. Enough said.
Mr.H wrote:
You mean He Who Can Do No Wrong?
(And he’ll make me one of his Inner Ring! I can throw traitors under the bus!)
srs wrote:
That the Song of Solomon study that gave us the brand name “Bee Jay Driscoll”?
@ Linn:
It’s a small world after all (repeat X2) it’s a small small world. Almost 40 years and I still can’t get that song out of my head. Arrrgh.
But, of course, it’s true-about the “smallness” of the world.
@ ar:
Yes AR, I tried to make a comment at Wendy’s blog but was having trouble posting it for some reason from my ipad. But it was on those lines of how far Mars Hill has reached.
It seems that the Driscoll supporter’s including himself are saying that us who have had no actual personal hands on experience with Mars Hill have no right to make this our business. Mars Hill themselves are the ones who made this everyone’s business. Oh how I wish I never heard his mysogynist sermon series on SOS, Esther and the Peasnt Princess, let alone the Edinburgh sermon. They’ve done as much if not more assault to my soul than the porn I’ve seen. He’s been like a molester offering sweet candy to draw you in, that makes him worse than an honest attacker. Deception is the worst. He used William Wallace as an inspiration as if he thought his character was like his. But no, his character is more like Wallace’s betrayer. In fact now that I think of it that’s another thing Mark has ruined for me. The best part of the Braveheart movie to me but also the most gut wrenching was the look on Mel Gibson’s face when he grasped that betrayal. That’s how the good people at Mars Hill should be feeling rather than trying to ‘suck it up’ and be all Christianeesy understanding all over the guy.
I wouldn’t doubt that Driscoll as a boy was betrayed horribly and knows what that feels like, and that’s the part of Mark I have compassion for and hope for healing. Until he deals with his demons he isn’t going to change.
Great post Deebs! We need more from the other side willing to discuss the issues rather than just accuse others of evil motives.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Only in my dreams!!!!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
By the way, HUG: THIS IS FOR YOU!!! https://mobile.twitter.com/NeoCalJaneway/status/503022864417955840
@ Gram3:
Funny, because the only place I recall seeing “winsome” used IRL – i.e., outside of Neo-Calvinist literature – was in an old Scottish ballad (“busk ye, busk ye, my winsome marrow”). 🙂
Excellent post, Dee. Thx!
Considering that David Robertson is a fine debater (as he believes) and one who loves going to uncomfortable places to do it (as he says), I am surprised that he has made no response to you, Dee.
😉
Deb and Dee, Be steadfast and immovable!!! Keep fighting for the victims.
Glory to Jesus Christ! !
zooey111 wrote:
I agree with you in principle, but I think it’s very unlikely that Mark Driscoll gets up in the morning and asks himself “Who can I hurt and abuse today?” I’m willing to bet his actions, as destructive of others as they may be, are motivated by a sincere desire to alleviate his own internal agony. Sometimes the meanest people are the ones in the greatest pain. He probably thinks he’s helping people and that they really need him and that he’s giving them the tough love they require when he abuses them. Based on what may have happened to him as a boy, he may know no other way. I wouldn’t want to spend 10 seconds in Mark Driscoll’s skin, a tragic figure.
That said, I think you’re right on the whole, and even assuming what I said above is true, it doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be opposed vigorously.
@ Hester: Hmm – I’ve seen it used a lot in 19th c. literature (and probably a lot of 20th c. books) from the UK. I think it’s one of those words that just isn’t in common usage anymore, so these guys felt they could co-opt it.
I think it’s great that Dee brought his post to our attention, going over it point by point, an excellent thing. Both have said their pieces and hopefully are too wise to “respond”. This back and forth responding seems futile to me. If we say what we think why not let it go. Planting a seed is a great thing; arguing all day soon seems hostile. I don’t think these blogs are like wars, someone has to win or lose, or should be. Am I totally out of it? I used to have to win, or want to; I don’t know when I changed.
Dave A A wrote:
What’s hypocritical about this is people like Mr. Driscoll, Mr. Phillips, Mr. Wilson and presumably Mr. Merritt would not hesitate to discipline, excommunicate, shun and destroy anyone in the laity who did something that hurt them (even if that something was a simple standing up for the truth), and would presumably have no problem taking private (or in the case of Mr. Driscoll) public pleasure in it.
Schadenfreude is not applicable to leadership, only to laity.
@ Dave A A:
I agree. From your Jonathan Merrit quote: “thirst for retribution never quenches…panted for more payment, more pain…as the root of bitterness grows deep, it’s sour fruit hangs heavy.”
In my limited experience, the only people like that were those who hadn’t yet squarely faced wrongs done to them.
And Mark Driscoll comes to my mind on that. Mark appears to have a bottomless rage, with a bitter/sour tang. And he can’t get enough to soothe him, ever. When I read in Karen Schaeffer’s post (at welovemarshill) that Driscoll had an abusive father, it reminded me that I’d found Mark’s WilliamWallace ravings to be like that of a drunk father in a rage. I suspect Mark’s never turned around and faced down how badly he was treated when he was a vulnerable kid. It takes a a particular kind of courage to face one’s own vulnerability.
Revenge is very different from wanting there to be consequences for bad behavior. Really, consequences restore normalcy: action → reaction and then a slow return to equilibrium.
I’d take Merritt seriously if he talked about restitution, which seems to me a peculiarly Christian concept and should be seen as integral to any repentance. I won’t pay attention to any apology for serious wrongdoing unless restitution is part of it.
Dave A A wrote:
What’s hypocritical about this is people like Mr. Driscoll, Mr. Phillips, Mr. Wilson and presumably Mr. Merritt would not hesitate to discipline, excommunicate, shun and destroy anyone in the laity who did something that hurt them (even if that something was a simple standing up for the truth), and would presumably have no problem taking private (or in the case of Mr. Driscoll) public pleasure in it.
Schadenfreude is not applicable to leadership, only to laity.Patti wrote:
They’ll almost always say something good and true. They play you like that, just when they sense they’re about to lose the domination and control they love most, they know the words to use to reel people back in, it’s a perpetual cycle. The back and forth of heresy-truth-cruelty-kindness is itself a form of abuse and brainwashing.
You’re not going to believe the lie when it’s presented with claws and fangs, you’re going to believe it when it’s slipped in with a load of good stuff. Satan himself knows this, and of course, what he told Adam and Eve was not pure rubbish, it was partly true. The Lord warned us as well by talking of Satan’s servants presenting themselves as angels of light.
When I teach students about what to watch for so they can avoid committing fraud in the corporate world, they learn not to worry about the clearly sociopathic/sadistic Kevin Spacey character in “Horrible Bosses”, that guy’s a relative sweetheart because he’s so easy to identify and oppose; it’s Walter the executive who also volunteers as a coach for your kid’s little league team, the guy you had a beer with last week and he insisted on picking up the tab, that’s the one you have to be afraid of when he puts his arm around your shoulder and says “We need a little help from you people over in accounting…”
mirele wrote:
Speaking of cults, I’ve been visiting my former home and just drove past the humble abode of my former neighbor, Ramtha. He’s really not so neighborly these days, with tall walls, gates, and thick vegetation around his compound. For those who are unaware, he’s a 35,000 year old entity, or “Enlightened One” who teaches mortals (for a small fee, of course) “a unique perspective to view the mystery of life”. Anyway, the thought occurred to me that I could go on a number of Christian blogs praising Ramtha, as many in this locality do, and not get the same level of “concern” over my soul as I would by criticizing Driscoll!
Boom. Well done Dee.
Wish these shepherds would stand up for the sheep, instead of standing up for each other.
Dave A A wrote:
Driscoll is Ramtha as Elron is Xenu…
Law Prof wrote:
Successful sociopaths are masters at camouflaging what they really are.
We only hear about the ones dumb enough to slip up and get caught.
“For Satan himself can transform himself into an Angel of Light…”
Law Prof wrote:
You know, I’m fine w/ understanding motives & root causes etc., but it doesn’t change the outcome: people get abused, & Christ is the one slandered.
Law Prof wrote:
I hope you also tell them that if they do not “help out” they will get fired. Been there. Told them no. Got fired. Survived, of course, but one lives with the fall out from one’s choices be they good or evil. IMO, ethical decisions have to be made before the specific conditions arise or one is apt to be caught with few options.
Law Prof wrote:
Agreed, except I didn’t mean to lump Mr Merritt in with those other chaps. I’ve not read much else from him, but I think he’s generally amongst the good guys, That’s why his over(IMO)-concern over victims and observers being too happy with Driscoll’s troubles was remarkable to me.
Calvinist Janeway wrote:
100% agreement here.
Dave A A wrote:
He might be, I don’t know him from Adam–I shouldn’t have included him in my list.
Nancy wrote:
I actually tell them to fire themselves, don’t wait for the boss to fire them, get the resignation letter in ahead of the termination letter. Some of the best career moves I’ve ever made were firing myself. Sometimes I managed to get in a few verbal parting shots as well, letting a boos know what an unethical scumbag he is can be a wonderfully cathartic experience.
Dave A A wrote:
I could say something similar about David Robertson, I think. I first linked to him here a few months back when he wrote a thoughtful article about Tony Minao’s arrest in Scotland. For that article, he’s suffered no end of name-calling at the hands of Minao’s BFF Church O’Neal (sic).
Law Prof wrote:
Excellent comment and so true! Thank you, Law Prof!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Close to 30 years ago my wife, 3 young children, and I were driving down a residential street when we saw Ramtha’s BFF walking past. She was wearing long shimmery robes (the closest I can describe the color would be Saruman’s robes after he changed into the many-coloured). She seemed to be deep in a trance. Being quite charismatic at the time, we prayed for the kids that no bad stuff would rub off. Years later, we unwittingly got 2 of our adult kids into an Acts 29 church….. Sigh…
Hester wrote:
Actually, the use of “winsome” in odd ways was an early warning sign of our inevitable “situation” which I chose to ignore along with some other signs. So, I’m actually b*tter at myself for denying reality and refusing to add 2+2. It’s especially galling because Gramp3 told me how it was going to end, but noooooo, I had to think the best. And I am way old enough to know better…
In other news: (hopefully not too far on the tangent line)
Big surf here in Southern Cali today. It’s HUGE!
The voice of the LORD is upon the waters:
The GOD of glory thundereth:
The LORD is upon many waters.
~ Psalm 29:3 ~
Muff Potter wrote:
Did you get over to see it?
As someone who has personally been negatively affected by MD sycophants; this blog is fresh air! When an MD fanboy is in charge, things can become quite suffocating, especially if you’re a married woman with no kids and a drive to succeed. I’ve left that church and part of my journey out of that oppressive bubble included being comforted & encouraged by this blog and the commenters. It reminded me that God IS love and love actually does mean love and not hate…. Which if you’re familiar with MD’s version of God you understand why I say that.
Thanks Deebs! God bless y’all! & pray my husband and I find a new church home soon 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Lol!! That just made me laugh-cry. Thank you.
@ Muff Potter:
Re: Surf in SoCal.
Yep! This morning my buddy’s surfboard was smashed in two at Manhattan Beach.
@ Law Prof: I’m surprised by Merrit’s stance on this. Very.
I suspect he doesn’t really understand the depth of abuse suffered by many at MH and related churches, or he would never have posted as he did. Am sure he’s hearing about it all off-list!
@ Law Prof:
What we actually did was fail to agree on a renegotiated contract, so it did not look like they fired me and it did not look like I quit (both of which would have “looked bad”) and we kept it all behind closed doors and we all walked away smelling like roses. That worked for me and for them.
Law Prof wrote:
I am so glad you are teaching.
Patti wrote:
FWIW, I don’t think what you did was a bad idea. Young adults need to learn that good and bad don’t come neatly separated. Life isn’t binary that way.
If you do that kind of thing again, you might simply add what you wrote here in your comment. I think it’s true and important.
What you did could also give opportunity for talking about the heart. Words can be said that are correct but come from bad motives and words can be said that are incorrect but come from good motives. That too makes a difference.
So your motives might not have been completely pure, as you say, but ISTM there were good motives mixed in, too. You were trying to get at something solid.
I wish you the best. It’s comforting to know there are people like you out there caring that much.
Gavin White wrote:
Eh big man, welcome aboard!
What church don’t you go to?
numo wrote:
He’s a PK — his father being megachurch leader, James Merritt, the lead pastor of Cross Pointe Church in Georgia. I’m sure that informs Jonathan Merritt’s opinions significantly.
How many times does it need to be said? Criminal matters aside, I think most of us don’t aren’t a lynch mob out to a pound of leash extracted from MD. What we do want to see is an honest change to a Christian heart. When these guys are busted out for their greedy, narcissistic and abusive acts, we’re tired of hearing empty words about being ‘sorry’, about how ‘mistakes were made’ and how much they ‘really do care’ about people as if they were magic words that make it all go away. Well, actions speak louder than words and if MD is truly repentant, than we can fully expect to see a big difference in his actions in the future. Whatever forgiveness means, it does not mean that merely speaking the word ‘sorry’ is the end of it. No, it’s only the beginning of true repentance and we are absolutely right to hold his feet to the fire to see that he honors his own word.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I think, to be a “none” is a very sad thing.
Janey wrote:
I spent many wonderful summer days at “Nana’s” house in Manhattan Beach. Good memories of those times.
Hi Seneca, quick question if you’ve got the time and inclination to answer.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
How so and for whom? Are you saying it’s a very sad thing for you to have “nones” out there, or for the “nones” themselves? I’m unsure given the brevity of your statement and was wondering if you’d mind clarifying.
Seneca
I am a “none” and I am not sad. In fact, being with my family and worshipping together actually is a relief. YES! I am in relief!! There I said it. The Holy Spirit is more real in my life then it was in church. In church I had to hide my self- no one knew the real me. I was being a hypocrite. Now I don’t hide.
In church, I was in a bubble and not associating with unbelievers. I felt I could not be friends for fear that they would rub off their secularism on me and my family- yeah, like a disease! This shows the stupidity and lack of trust I had in Jesus to protect me wherever I am. My husband and I now talk openly and honestly; my kids and I have better relationships with each other. So do you think I am going to risk all that to go back to sitting in a pew and giving tithes to a building project. Sorry, no thank you.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I think it’s sad for the None – ultimately. It’s also sad for the rest of the local body of believers.
“Nones” have along history of drifting away from the faith.
BTW, I don’t think you have to meet in an officially ordained building, but the regular coming together with other believers is, as stated in Scripture, very important. House churches are fine, they tend to last about 2 years then if they’re thriving, they find a building to meet in.
@ senecagriggs yahoo:
Thank you for answering my question Seneca.
Bridget wrote:
Not a chance Bridget. The traffic is Gordian at the beaches South of LA when these things happen, you might as well be in New York or Hong Kong even with the numerous parking structures which have sprung up over the years. Here’s a you tube vid of the action on the North side of the Newport Jetties. As you probably know, seawater is no light substance. The amount of kinetic energy required to animate these monsters is staggering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM2uU1WDnJc
🙂
* *
*. *
*
*
__
“We Can Rise Now
And be Jesus’ Church Again, Perhaps?
O brave hearts of Wartburg, when will we see your effort duplicated a ten fold -that You have fought bravely for the victim of spiritual and physical abuse, that they might gain a wee bit hill and glen, and stand against him who’s bus tolls for many an innocent, N’ spiritually abused victim.
hmmm…
(fast forward…)
Whereas the church has been seriously profaned by such a proverbially notorious and obstinate offender, a man of the cloth no less, a church censure is necessary [1], for the reclaiming and gaining of the offending brother, Mark Driscoll, whereas also this example would serve as a deterring of others from like offense(s), and thereby purging out of that vulgar leaven brought into the church, which by deleterious affect has infected da whole dang lump, that the honor of Christ might ‘yet’ be vindicated, and the holy profession of the Gospel preserved.
Amen!
Sopy
__
[1] Charge(s) are ongoing, and forthcoming, etc. (stay tuned ta TWW, K)
*
Intermission:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnKkN-DjXt8
—
Muff Potter wrote:
I should go observe. I’m only 20 minutes from the Pacific and in calmer traffic areas.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
What makes you think bones don’t gather?
@ Bridget:
I thought I fixed that bones to “nones.”
@ Bridget:
Hmm… for a second, I thought you were making a reference to Ezekiel 37….bones coming together…. 😉
@ Jeannette Altes:
That reminds me of one of my favorite Michael Card songs. http://youtu.be/Ng8r_lIwQSk
Gavin White wrote:
Wishing you well on your path. It was a lovely Sunday morning the one when I decided to stop mentally flogging myself to get going to church. A feeling of liberation and absence of fear. The hardest thing to lose has been the critical (and I don’t mean skeptical) mindset – ie the strong judgementalism. I learnt it from a young age. I now enjoy making friends who those who have different worldviews and get queasy when I hear “Christianese” now. I think a most damaging and divisive belief has been those who subscribe to the ‘don’t be unequally yoked’ mindset. I don’t think it means what many folks think it does. I can’t say life on the ‘outside’ is any better or worse, it just ‘is what it is’. But I sure don’t miss the ‘false fellowship’. I do take cop from my family for not subscribing to their ‘one true path’ and I’m sorry that it grieves them. Hey – have you met up with the Nick yet? You could take your pet haggis’ out on a long leash for an extended up hill and down dale walk or something…
@ Haitch:
Thanks for the good wishes Haitch. It feels peculiar not being associated with a church as I was baptised into the Church of Scotland at six weeks old. I remember it well. It was the Sunday before Christmas and the choir sang ‘Away in A Manger’.(ahem!). I agree with Seneca when he says being a none is kind of sad.
As for Nick, no I’ve not met up with him, I’d never be able to keep up. And as for taking my haggis out, if we get independence in a couple of weeks, I’m pretty sure it will become an arrestable offence!
Best wishes.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hi Nick and thank you.
I was only there briefly but it is a big city centre church that rather famously “left the building” in its dispute with the C of S over the ordination of homosexuals.
Regards.
🙂
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Convoluted Comfort: “All right now?, hmmm…where’s Jesus?”
(bump)
For the Right Reverend David Robertson, it is apparently religious business as usual.
huh?
Respectfully, does this man of the cloth understand the gravity of the Mark Driscoll situation?
What?
Is it, once again, doctrine over moral integrity and biblical holiness; winner take all, no matter who getz run over?
Krunch!
These eyes are crying…
(tears)
Heavenly Father, I ask that you would graciously examine the 100 or so Scottish Free Churches ta see if any one of your children are being abused there as well in the name of your precious Son, Jesus…
(sadface)
…and deliver Um’ from harm,
Thank-You!
Your lit’l sparrow,
Sopy
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Comic relief: Paul Rodgers- “All Right Now!” (Live In Glasgow)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfFPMlvLSHU
Just because: Pink Floyd – “Another Brick in the Wall, Pt 2”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8zmijLZJg0
😉
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@ Albuquerque Blue: Michael card is one of my favorite singers
@ Sopwith:
You are so kind
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
I have to say this: there can be also pew sitters and kneelers with no faith. You can also find ministers/pastors/priests with no faith.
Law Prof wrote:
You are apparently a nicer person than I am.
Honestly,though, its not that I think he tries to be mean; I doubt that he gives enough attention to other people’s thoughts & feelings than I think he’s capable of.
@ Dee:
I was lucky enough to see him in concert a couple of times growing up. Amazing performer. His album Poiema is always in my music collection.
zooey111 wrote:
Narcissism, I suppose. Did you see these thoughts from his former best friend?
http://welovemarshill.com/post/95889975473/lief-moi-thoughts-on-driscolls-announcement
Haitch wrote:
That is all true Haitch. But Scriptures calls upon followers of Jesus Christ to NOT be a “none.”
Dave A A wrote:
I was also disappointed in this article, mainly because it was all ‘theoretical’. It doesn’t deal with actual people in actual situations expressing actual feelings. It reminds me of the disciples, walking past a blind man and asking, “Who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” Instead of even caring about the blind man.
The problem I have with Robertson’s response (and similar responses), is that it just hasn’t been thought through with any kind of rigor. Imagine for a moment that Mark Driscoll dismembered his family and stashed them in the ice-box. How much effort and energy would all his former supporters put into denouncing him – publicly and loudly? Would they be “bitter” or “gleeful”? I am reminded of Mohler declaring in his typically extreme and un-nuanced language about how wicked and vile and astonishingly bad a man was for shooting an abortion doctor. Because, you know, it is important for someone as publicly pro-life as Mohler to maintain distance from this kind of nut job.
This is the exact same problem that we saw with the CJ Mahaney debacle; namely, how bad does a sin have to be before we publicly denounce it? It often seems as if some Christian leaders just pick and choose based upon the outcomes they want, instead of based on any kind of ethical standard.
In the end, Robertson and others come across to the thinking public is as gatekeepers who wish to diminish the severity of Driscoll’s sin.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Or, worse, declared that he no longer opposed gay marriage.
In that case, some resurgent leaders might have to refuse to let their former members join Mars Hill as it would now be leading people to hell whilst pretending to lead them to heaven.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I don’t think that is the case at all. David Robertson’s article on his own blog page was quite insightful. I hadn’t realised that he had interviewed Mark Driscoll years ago and even then David flagged up some of the dangers he thought would come from such a ministry. The problem for anyone who initially supported Driscoll is how to reconcile any good his ministry did with the bad that is now so obvious. It is possible to feel sorrow for those whom he abused and also for the man himself. That is not to condone or justify what he did. That is not to diminish the hurt of the victims either.
As for his comments here, they were made to give the context of what he had said, not to defend Mark Driscoll. Similarly, the “glee” remark was given its proper context and, at the end of the day, it was his opinion of what was going on in those particular circumstances. Nothing more.
Regards.
senecagriggs yahoo wrote:
Well, lucky I’m exempt from having that club wielded over me. ps we can argue until the cows come home on what gathering together or fellowship means.
Sometimes it pays to listen to honest criticism.
It does at least appear that on TWW, if you feel you are a victim or are protecting a victim, you can break all the rules of kindness, not gossiping, not judging, or the Golden Rule.
Funny thing is sometimes we here use the exact same tactics against what we perceive as bad guys (and some of them are in my opinion really bad) use against those we perceive as innocent victims (and some of them really are innocent victims.
So I guess if say Mark Driscoll can show us where he was “thrown under the bus” by bad leadership, he gets a pass and we start supporting him?
Or maybe we should listen, our dear ladies Dee and Deb should report the facts in a less emotional manner, and we should confine our comments to that which we can prove, not armchair psychology and dog piling on hate speech?
Just an idea, since the truth really does need to come out. Just in scriptural ways, without the argument that we have been hurt so we get to become the abuser.
Seems scripture says something about faithful are the blows of a friend? Maybe all of us need to take a deep breath and make sure our zeal doesn’t outrun our love? Or our Lord?
@ linda:
Good word!
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“Live” from Seattle?
From Under Da Marzhil Bus: “Sympathy for Whatz his Name” ?
hmmm…
another Marzhil pastor bitz da dust,
another Marzhil pastor bitz da dust,
another Marzhil pastor bitz da dust,
And another one,
And another one,
another Marzhil pastor bitz da dust…
,,,
,,,
,,,
,,,
,,,
MarkyD: “hey, ‘click, click’, where is every buddy?
🙂
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Comic relief: MarzHil non-violent demonstrators protesting for MerkyD’s removal?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOPDN9HsiYg
Bonus: Part Two: More MarzHil Demonstors calling for MerkyD ta step down?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhCzXjLE04c
;~)
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@ numo:
No, all evangelicals in the UK are without exception perfect. All the imperfect, pain in the neck ones have emigrated …
On a more serious note, there is no such thing as a bible-loving abuser. This is a contradiction in terms. To avoid the no true Scotsman fallacy, there are obviously Christians who do and say stupid things and who seriously lose the plot sometimes (indeed no-one is exempt from this), but a decade or more life of serial abuse is proof positive that their Christianity is self-deception and completely phoney. Regardless of what they claim and the fact that they know the right jargon, they are still dead in trespesses and sins, their faith is as dead as they are, and their senseless minds are darkened to coin a phrase or two.
Anyone is perfectly justified, and the NT writers tell us to do this, in attempting to discern such goats from the real sheep, since this is not always so obvious just going by external appearances.
I’m almost a month behind, because it’s late summer/early fall and farmers are swamped this time of year. But reading this, Dee, I felt the need to give you a GIANT online high five. Well done, lady.
Also waaaay late to the party. I read here a fair bit and almost never post–atheist which, barring Jesus and/or his mum or dad stopping in and having tea (they have a standing invitation), isn’t likely to change.
Allow me to also add my congratulations on answering Mr. Robertson. If things are so very tidy in Scotland’s churches, he may want to remember why he calls his blog what he does (for those who don’t know, it’s a play on the “Wee Free Church of Scotland”). I recall reading about any number of arguments, if not outright fistfights, that broke out over questions of dogma. Also, I would assume he’s heard of Jenny Geddes? Besides being the name of Robert Burns’ horse, I mean? We don’t have a lot of people tossing their chairs at the ministers ’round these parts, but I guess that’s just part of the “little birds in their nest agree”, kumbaya-ish brotherhood in the churches in Scotland.
@ BMK:
Welcome to TWW and thank you for your interesting comment.