"… Why is that not relevant, and why can’t I say it? Well, kids are off limits! Great! You got a verse that says that?"- JD Hall
*Trigger Alert*
This is one of the hardest posts that I have written. We will be discussing a teen boy's tragic suicide and the actions of some which tie into this tragedy. Some of the comments will be graphic but they are necessary to understand how some leaders and friends of Reformation Montana and Pulpit and Pen could have contributed to the situation. Our hearts and prayers go out the Caner family. TWW talked to a person close to the situation and we were told that we could proceed with this post.
Never, Ever Again!
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Before we begin, here is some information to provide background for this tragic story. This list deliberately focuses on certain individuals.
Braxton Caner: Beloved son of Ergun and Jill Caner who passed into His Father's arms at the tender age of 15.
Pulpit and Pen: A blog and audio sermon website featuring JD Hall and other writers
JD Hall : Pastor of Fellowship Baptist Church Sidney, Montana and a member of the Board of Directors for Reformation Montana
Dustin Germain: Contributor to Pulpit and Pen. He also has his own blog The Paperthin Hymn.
Alan Maricle: Contributor to Pulpit and Pen as well as blogger at Rhoblogy and other.
James White: Director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a well known Reformed Christian apologist. He is well published.
Reformation Montana:
…an affiliation of like-minded churches and individuals that cooperate for the purpose of sending missionaries from Montana and the surrounding regions to the rest of the world.
…Reformation and Revival Ministries is a ministry of the Reformation Montana Executive Board. In two to three day sessions including both Biblical preaching and seminar-style teaching sessions, RefMT leaders will come to your church and church plant to explain the connection between Reformationa (sic) and church revival.
The purpose of listing these speakers is to show that JD Hall is not some fringe guy even if he acts it. Speakers at Reformation Montana 2014 include:
Paul Washer: SBC preacher and Director of HeartCry Missionay Society Update 08/9/2014 Correction. Paul Washer spoke at the 2012 Reformation Montaana.
Phil Johnson: The Executive Director of John MacArthur's Grace to You.
Voddie Baucham: A Gospel Coalition council member
Chris Rosebrough: Christian Pirate Radio.
James White was a speaker at Reformation 2013
Terminology: Cyber stalking versus cyber bullying/cyber harrassment:
"Cyberbullying" is when a child, preteen or teen is tormented, threatened, harassed, humiliated, embarrassed or otherwise targeted by another child, preteen or teen using the Internet, interactive and digital technologies or mobile phones. It has to have a minor on both sides, or at least have been instigated by a minor against another minor. Once adults become involved, it is plain and simple cyber-harassment or cyberstalking. Adult cyber-harassment or cyberstalking is NEVER called cyberbullying.
Adult Bullies: Such actions can lead to suicide.
Bullying can be a very traumatic experience for your child. It can cause physical and emotional harm, and damage your child for a long time to come. Indeed, a victim of bullying can suffer from physical injury, but the long lasting effects to someone's psyche can be even more damaging in the long term, even though these effects might be subtle. It is also important to note that bullying can take place without physical contact. Emotional, verbal and electronic (online or through text messaging on cell phones) abuse can cause the same emotional and psychological effects as physical bullying. Being bullied can lead to difficulty in forming healthy personal relationships, as well as leading to depression, low self image and even suicide.
…One would think that as people mature and progress through life, that they would stop behaviors of their youth. Unfortunately, this is not always the case. Sadly, adults can be bullies, just as children and teenagers can be bullies. While adults are more likely to use verbal bullying as opposed to physical bullying, the fact of the matter is that adult bullying exists. The goal of an adult bully is to gain power over another person, and make himself or herself the dominant adult. They try to humiliate victims, and "show them who is boss."
…Narcissistic Adult Bully: This type of adult bully is self-centered and does not share empathy with others. Additionally, there is little anxiety about consequences. He or she seems to feel good about him or herself, but in reality has a brittle narcissism that requires putting others down.
Impulsive Adult Bully: Adult bullies in this category are more spontaneous and plan their bullying out less. Even if consequences are likely, this adult bully has a hard time restraining his or her behavior. In some cases, this type of bullying may be unintentional, resulting in periods of stress, or when the bully is actually upset or concerned about something unconnected with the victim
Secondary Adult Bully: This is someone who does not initiate the bullying, but joins in so that he or she does not actually become a victim down the road. Secondary bullies may feel bad about what they are doing, but are more concerned about protecting themselves.
…Adult bullies were often either bullies as children, or bullied as children. Understanding this about them may be able to help you cope with the behavior. But there is little you can do about it beyond doing your best to ignore the bully, report his or her behavior to the proper authorities, and document the instances of bullying so that you can take legal action down the road if necessary.
This post will not be addressing the Ergun Caner controversy except to say that the above individuals have long focused on the controversy surrounding Caner. In the interest of full disclosure, TWW has also critiqued the Caner situation in the past. This post will focus solely on what we believe to be the inappropriate actions and words of adults that were aimed at Braxton Caner. Any critique of Ergun Caner will not be allowed in this discussion. In fact, if you think they should, you need a heart check, badly.
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James White
On July 29, 2014, Dee and Deb were in Washington DC meeting with a number of TWW readers. It was a wonderful time of fellowship, punctuated frequently by "So you're "so and so" (pen name.) We returned to our room and promptly do what we always do-check out the Internet. It is important to note that we had not heard of the controversy that occurred in early July. We saw a tweet that indicated that James White had addressed Braxton Caner's suicide. We were shocked and saddened. However, within that post we read the following comment.
Sadly, I have already seen some using this event as a pretext for criticism—not of Ergun Caner, but of those who have sought honesty and integrity in his life. This needs to stop, immediately. The issues surrounding Ergun Caner’s past can, and must, be set aside for the time being. By all sides, including his most avid defenders. I, for one, will not pursue the issues relating to Caner’s past claims until after a meaningful period of time has passed, and they become relevant to his future actions. I call upon all others to likewise give the Caner family time to grieve and deal with this tragedy. I include everyone in this request. Leave all matters of speculation, finger-pointing, etc., to the side.
Please note two things. White is telling people not to criticize those who have sought honesty in his life. That was NOT the issue here. It is also evident that this is a "Move along nothing to see here" comment. Unfortunately, there is much to see here.
On Caner's Son
Meanwhile, Deb had discovered JD Halls post called On Caner's Son and began reading it to me as I was sifting through Google. I became so concerned with the tone of the post that I immediately tweeted
Within minutes, JD Hall "followed" our tweets. Shortly after that "follow," he removed the post. Note that this was after James White's post and after Caner's suicide. It is no longer in Google cache and Wayback has not captured it as of yet. But, Deb made sure that it would not fully disappear. We have copied the entire post along with all of the comments. Due to Fair Use, we cannot reprint the entire post, so we will provide you with some excepts.
As we discovered, Hall was responding to Peter Lumpkins' critique which we will get to in a minute.
…And now, we see the ungodliness in his son’s Twitter account.
…My comment was, “Why is @Ergun Caner’s son, @braxtoncaner89, posting make-out pics and profanity on his Twitter? The immorality surrounding Caner is astounding.” Braxton then responded with understandably aggressive comments, at which point I asked him – twice – if he and his sibling speak Arabic at home
… Keep in mind that this is a question that he will be asked (if he hasn’t already) over and again in his life until his father repents. I then told him that if he ever wanted to speak or seek truth concerning his father to email me. That was the extent of the conversation.
…Some have repeatedly characterized this as an “attack” or “going after” Caner’s son. In my opinion (which hasn’t changed and I see no Biblical reason why it should.
… Braxton Caner needs to hear the truth about his father. Ergun Caner needs to model, first of all, repentance so that his son can see it.
…The response has been mixed, with some – including Caner’s spokesperson, Peter Lumpkins – calling for my “repentance
…Instead, Lumpkins posted an article without my original tweet, full of faux-outrage (imagine Peter’s outrage in the opposite direction if CJ Maheny’s son had posted such things), and is heavily censoring the com-box. I have asked for “scripture and verse” and haven’t had an answer. Repent for what, I would ask? What commandment has been broken?
…You’re using his son’s immorality to criticize his father.” Technically, I’d say “his father’s leadership,” but yep – I did. It’s relevant. It’s Biblical.
…This is a young man in Caner’s household, which needs to be in order before he attempts to lead young people at church camps all across the country this summer and at Brewton-Parker college.
…This was not about “shaming” a young man (although he should be ashamed). His father has already shamed him. The content of his Twitter feed is shameful enough by itself.
…This is yet another indication that there is something seriously wrong with Ergun’s leadership – the same leadership that he now has over hundreds of young Southern Baptists.
Imagine if you were a teen and someone accused you of immorality and that your father was to blame for it? Could he have blamed himself for causing more pain to his father? One thing is for sure. It did nothing to encourage either him or his family.
Then, JD Hall apologizes, which occurred, as best as we can tell, sometime in early July. Here is what he said.
As I said on Friday’s program, I regret pointing people to the material or behavior exhibited on Caner’s son, Braxton’s Twitter account. That was a distraction, and I should have contacted Caner about it. I did reach out to one of Caner’s associates, but apparently didn’t give enough time for him to amend the situation. Again, I should not have done that.
I’ve asked for people “chapter and verse” why it’s wrong to point out publicly his already-public behavior. I’ve thought a lot about it. Proverbs 17:9 says, “Whoever covers an offense seeks love, but he who repeats a matter separates close friends.” Well, Caner and I are not exactly, “close friends” but the point is salient. While it was in no way an “attack,” Braxton wasn’t a public persona even though his tweets are public, and now even more are aware of the various things mentioned in the above blog post. Likewise, I shouldn’t have interacted with the boy those couple times once the original tweet was made.
Finally, I gave credence to the rumor in a tweet relating to Caner’s marriage which I should not have mentioned, even in passing. That, I will go so far as to say is sinful So, thinking my email address already blocked, I’ve reached out to a mutual friend of Caner and myself to give an apology to make sure he gets it. If someone wants to beat me over the head with this apology or the way it’s worded, then I apologize for that, too.
However, the post remained up, complete with his criticisms of Braxton Caner, until TWW asked him to remove it on July 29, the date of Caner's death. We find this apology disingenuous at best. He is also denying that he "attacked" Braxton. We will get back to some comments in a moment.
Time to Stop Social Media Abusers by Peter Lumpkins
I couldn't sleep because I was deeply disturbed by the progression of these events. I found the post by Peter Lumpkins that Hall had mentioned in his post. This post convinced me of the poor judgment exhibited by Hall in his encounter with Braxton. Lumpkins presented the tweets. But first, here is Hall's original tweet.
Here are Braxton's responses. Please note that Braxton is clearly communicating that he wants nothing to do with Hall. Yet Hall persists.
Braxton had it right. Hall comes across as "kinda creepy." Obviously, Caner was viewing this as a negative encounter.
Lumpkins said
when someone goes after a 15 year old boy, ridiculing him and his household, and even encouraging the teen to personally contact him if ever he wanted to know the "real truth" about his dad, now that's something else.
In this same post, Dustin Germain enters the fray in the comment section. Remember, he writes for Pulpit and Pen and is a friend of JD Hall. I contend that Germain was adding fuel to the fire, both at Lumpkins blog and in the original post by Hall. However, please note, most people in the comment section expressed disgust at the actions of Hall. Germain was, and is, the odd man out.
Peter Lumpkins responded swiftly, and in so doing, owned the exchange.
Dustin Germain comments on Hall's blog "On Caner's Son."
Please remember that this post is not currently available online. However, we have the entire post and comments.
…Again, who says this is bullying? You also still haven’t answered the question I’ve asked several times. What age is it acceptable? 18? 21? (July 16)
…Rho, just so you know I agree with everything you have said here, (July 7)
…Paul, why the insistence that engaging a 15 year old, on any subject, is necessarily creepy and sinful and inappropriate and quite possibly even criminal? Where does that worldview and opinion come from?! That makes no sense and is quite honestly a very foolish and poorly thought-out position. Also, you can challenge and retort asking what age it is appropriate to confront, but you yourself have not answered the same question when posed to you first. Is this how you have discussions? Ignore the question and then try to appropriate it as an offensive? (July 9)
Introducing Rhology (Rhoblogy) who was also commenting "On Caner's Son."
This is just the beginning from this guy.
…(?)15 is legally considered a child.
(R's response) Y’all have to keep talking about “legality” because you have no biblical support to stand on.(?) A brain is not fully developed until the late 20′s. He is a child.
(R's response) So we should wait until our kids are late 20′s before we share the law and Gospel with them. Got it. (July 7)
…A “pastoral” concern isn’t really necessary… how about a Christian concern?
I don’t call out every sin, no, but that’s not necessarily a good thing, is it? Seems like the only sin you call out is the sin of calling out sin. I don’t know how commendable that is.
….and of course it is of more interest b/c of who his dad is. It is amazingly sad to see the son is like his father. I would see the son escape the pattern that his dad has set forth. Do you love the family enough to do something about it?
…Ah ha. Debbie doesn’t think that 15 year olds taking make-out selfies, putting up photos of other 15 year olds dressing like whores, and posting smut and profanity of their own free will is any big deal. And we care what she thinks about this incident…why? (July 7)
…Has a lot to do with it, actually. Since Ergun is pretty obviously unregenerate and yet well accepted in many Christian circles, it behooves those who love the truth to point out those sins until they are repented of or at least until everyone else realises it and alienates the man as well.
…And we pity the son enough to reach out to him. You would have him continue in his sin. You want to leave him in darkness. Shame on you, Paul.
JD Hall takes to the air to trash Braxton Caner!!!
Hall says he offered his apology to the family through a third party. However, this apology rings false in light of the fact that, as of the posting of this blog, the July 4 radio broadcast is still publicly accessible. Thanks to the efforts of Deb, we have complete transcript of the segment of the show that dealt with Braxton. We also have a copy of the audio broadcast "just in case." We are including some of the comments here. The entire transcript will be available at the end of the post.
…So I send out a Tweet, this was on Tuesday, I think. Why is Ergun Caner’s son BraxtonCaner89 — that’s his Twitter handle — posting make-out pics and profanity and make-out pics on Twitter? The immorality surrounding Caner is astounding.
Well, almost immediately you had outrage. Um, how dare you attack his son? Why go after his son? Uh, or why yeah my favorite one – why attack a child? First of all, let’s let’s settle this – he’s not a child. If you’re old enough to post what this young man was posting and to do it publicly in the public marketplace of ideas for all the world to see, you’re old enough to handle someone saying yeah this is this is not right, this is profane, you shouldn’t do that.
…Well, he responded to me. Now I didn’t Tweet to him. It was kinda out there. I did use his uh Twitter handle. But uh, not directly to him. Not that it matters, I suppose, right or wrong. (ed. note: Look at the first tweet-he made sure Braxton would see it.)
…Um, he responds to me, and I asked him a question, I was interested in knowing and that is do you speak Arabic? Your father says you speak the native language at home. Is that what you, do you speak that?
He uh he went on a tirade, understandably. (ed. note: Huh? The only one going on a tirade is Hall.)
…Um, this young man needs to, for the good of his own soul, um, see demonstrated for him an actual gospel with demonstrable repentance.
…. Is that an attack? Vicious? And you know or some that would say, well you you’re using his son against him. I’m using his son’s public behavior to demonstrate the immorality that surrounds Ergun Caner and the lack of holiness that he’s spreading to his children.
…Does a Christian leader, specifically elder, but I think at least in some way it applies to Christian leadership all together. Should his household not be in order? Should his children not be submissive to him and and to the Lord? Should they be spiritually rebellious?
…, do I have anything to repent for? Well, you repent of sin. And I ask people repeatedly, what is the chapter and verse that tells me this fifteen year old man’s public sin can’t be addressed publicly? And I would get comments back like well it’s common decency or you sound like a jerk or things less polite than that.
… Why is that not relevant, and why can’t I say it? Well, kids are off limits! Great! You got a verse that says that? I mean really, sin is a violation of God’s law. That’s what the uh that’s what the Baptist catechism says. I believe that’s the testimony of Scripture. Sin is a violation of God’s laws. What what law did I break?
…And people have said well uh would you have called it out if it hadn’t of been Caner’s son? Of course not, of course not. I have no problem saying that because um had Caner not Tweeted to him (chuckle), instead of a rebuke like maybe you shouldn’t call her your babe, you’re not you know you’re not married to her, you’re not engaged to her, she’s not your property, she’s not your anything. Um, that’s my response. That would have been what mine was. Um, it was Caner Tweeting to him that alerted us, so to be honest, no, no. If if he wasn’t Caner’s son, we wouldn’t have even noticed.
…. I absolutely regret Tweeting that, um not because it was unfair, it was not at all unfair, not because I went after him quote unquote with a vengeance. I in no way went after him with a vengeance. Um, because it’s distracting from the actual issue. Uh, it sent us on a wild goose chase; it got us off the main point. Um, so yeah, was it unwise? Sure, sure, I got distracted, I chased a rabbit. Uh I apologize for that, but being distracted and chasing a rabbit is not a sin unless you give me a chapter and verse. But yeah, I wish I hadn’t of for sure, for sure. Um, and so the responses have been vicious.
Twenty five days later, Braxton Caner took his own life. Pause…..
What does the world have to say?
1. An atheist group in the UK was amongst the first to pick up the story. From the title, you can guess what they think. The Suicide of a Preacher’s Kid: Did Braxton Paige Caner kills himself because of a Baptist preacher’s bullying? They quoted from a comment left by Paul on Hall's website.
– You are not his parent
– You are not his pastor
– You are not his friend
– You have no invested interest in this child
– You do not even know this teen
– You spent time searching and reading the twitter feed of a 15-year-old (which is not necessarily considered a public venue)
– You decided his picture and tweets were inappropriate
– You engaged another man’s 10th grade son in conversation online
– You asked a 15-year-old to private message you so you can correspond with him about his father
– You also stated that his mother and father are separated (which is a blatant lie)
– You have no God-given authority over this child in any way ….It is not surprising to me you did this – it is typical JD and generates more publicity for you and your radio program. But I am somewhat surprised how quickly a few people came to your defense and tried to justify it.
For someone who loves to call people to repentance, you sure have a tough time acknowledging when you crossed a line.
2. A Fox News reporter picks up on the story.
Todd Starnes
(Note: The Caner family asked me to share my commentary with you. I am honored to do so.)
I did not know Braxton Caner. But I knew his father – Ergun – a Muslim convert who became a Christian preacher.
For years Ergun has been hounded by unrelenting critics accusing him of all sorts of ministerial misdeeds. They hunted him like prey — as if it was some sort of spiritual sport.
In early July – they found a new target — Ergun's teenage son – Braxton.
The 15-year-old was a son and a brother. He played football, dated a girl and drove a pickup truck. The young man's supposed "crime" was defending his father.
They wrote terrible things about the 15-year-old – beyond the pale. It was theological thuggery. (TWW borrowed this for our title)
And last week – Braxton ended his life.
We do not know what led young Braxton to do the unthinkable. We do not know if the postings of these online agitators pushed this young child over the edge. But these are the facts.
A 15 year old boy was bullied. His reputation tarnished at the hands of grown men who professed to be doing God's work. And now Braxton Caner is gone. Bullied in the name of Christ.
Twitter allows us to express our thoughts in 140 characters.
But I only need nine.
Jesus Wept.
3. The Phoenix Preacher (Michael Newnham) comments under Things I Think and nails it.
Last week , Braxton Caner, the 15 year old son of Ergun Caner, died by suicide. This unspeakably terrible tragedy is compounded by the fact that the young man was harassed (for lack of a better word) by prominent Reformed Baptist pastor J.D. Hall on Twitter in the weeks leading up to his death. This included an invitation to Braxton Caner to “private message” the pastor to learn the “real truth” about his father and an article on the pastors blog questioning the child’s upbringing on issues of morality. We have had a policy here from the beginning that no matter how much of a scoundrel we were speaking of, the family was to be left out of the discussion…period. In my opinion, what Hall did in engaging and defaming a child on social media is as reprehensible as Caner’s actions…and he needs to find another line of work, just as Caner should. Our prayers go out to the Caner family.
The Final Insult by Alan Maricle of Rhoblogy
One would think these men would have learned their lesson. Well, one thing is for sure, Maricle has not. This comment, made on August 4, 2014, on his blog says it all.
He said this even in light of the following news release from the Caner family.
"Our hearts are filled with great sorrow as the entire Brewton-Parker College family grieves with its beloved president, Dr. Ergun Caner, his wife Jill, and Drake, their youngest son over the tragic death of their oldest son and big brother, Braxton Paige Caner. Braxton was born March 8, 1999 in Denver, Colorado. He came to faith in Christ at the tender age of 6 and was baptized by his dad at the Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia," the statement reads.
"Braxton would later reaffirm his commitment to Christ at a youth camp under the preaching of evangelist Tony Nolan. Consequently, he began traveling with his dad and sharing his faith on mission trips, evangelistic meetings, Bible conferences, and youth camps in 41 states as well as foreign countries including Kenya, Israel, Wales and the Bahamas. He was a member of the Willow Park Baptist Church in Aledo, Texas.
Finally, these men now take on the role of the Almighty by judging the state of men's souls. Most Christians are smart enough to know that this job is way above their pay grade.
It is the opinion of TWW that JD Hall, Dustin Germain, and Alan Maricle overstepped the boundaries of decency, love and good judgment in engaging or speaking about Braxton Caner. Even more despicable, one has judged him as unsaved after his death. I believe that we speak for the majority of the Christian community in condemning these men for their actions and words. They all need to step down from their positions of leadership for "a meaningful period." We would also recommend that James White lay off the Caner family for more than a "meaningful period." Things have gone way too far.
Once again, we ask our readers to join us in praying for "the peace that passes all understanding" for the Caner family on the loss of their beloved son.
Never, Ever Again.
Transcript of JD Hall's July 4, 2014 broadcast
Hello and you are listening to the Pulpit and Pen program for July 4, 2014. This is your host J.D. Hall. This is the program that we hope will be glorifying to God, convicting to sinners, and edifying to the saints. Thank you so much for listening in.
On today’s program, we’re gonna talk about the skirmishes that started on when was it, Tuesday? Something like that about Ergun Caner’s son. Yep. Then we’re gonna get to a Voice in the Wilderness segment. Hope you enjoy it.
O.K. so here’s the story for those of you that have not heard a little bit of a skirmish out there in social media, mostly on Twitter, a little bit on on Facebook. We had a couple of kamikazes in the pulpit bunker uh say something and then like get out of the pulpit bunker right away. I actually kicked one guy out just because he was being obnoxious, um but mostly confined to Twitter.
O.K. so here’s the story. Uh, a number of people have been talking for for a couple of days um about the material that’s been on Ergun Caner’s son’s public Twitter profile, his his page. Of course, Twitter’s different than Facebook. Facebook, you know depending upon your privacy settings you’ve gotta be friends with somebody to view and see what they say or whatever. Twitter, it’s not like that, it’s not like that at all. Even if you block someone, they can see everything that you you have to say.
And it took one person though in particular saying no look at this cause I just ignored it for for uh some time. I think I first heard about it on Saturday or Sunday, a couple of rumors out there, but uh I was busy so. But uh one person in particular said “Look at this”, and I and I was shocked to see what I saw. Um, first of all, his Twitter handle in Turkish uh refers to the phallus of a certain ethnicity, um, without being too graphic. Pretty, pretty shocking. Now his father claims to speak Turkish, so pretty sure he knows what that means.
By the way, um how this came into light is because he said that he missed his babe, the son did. And Caner responded to him, “Me too.” So people are like, who’s he talking to? And they look and it’s his son. And the first thing they see is a profile pic where he is, in my opinion, what I would call just making out with his girlfriend. It’s a deep kiss. It’s not a cute little kiss on the cheek or something like that. Um, it was, it was something else, let me put it that way. And and then without having to scroll down or anything, you see all kinds of um Tweets laced with profanity and so forth.
So I send out a Tweet, this was on Tuesday, I think. Why is Ergun Caner’s son BraxtonCaner89 — that’s his Twitter handle — posting make-out pics and profanity and make-out pics on Twitter? The immorality surrounding Caner is astounding.
Well, almost immediately you had outrage. Um, how dare you attack his son? Why go after his son? Uh, or why yeah my favorite one – why attack a child? First of all, let’s let’s settle this – he’s not a child. If you’re old enough to post what this young man was posting and to do it publicly in the public marketplace of ideas for all the world to see, you’re old enough to handle someone saying yeah this is this is not right, this is profane, you shouldn’t do that.
Well, he responded to me. Now I didn’t Tweet to him. It was kinda out there. I did use his uh Twitter handle. But uh, not directly to him. Not that it matters, I suppose, right or wrong. We’ll get into that in just a moment.
Um, he responds to me, and I asked him a question, I was interested in knowing and that is do you speak Arabic? Your father says you speak the native language at home. Is that what you, do you speak that?
He uh he went on a tirade, understandably. Uh, I asked him the question a second time, and then I asked him, uh no no then the fourth comment I made to him was you know because of your age I’m gonna discontinue the conversation, but if you ever want to seek truth or speak truth on your dad, just email me.
Well, again, instant outrage. How dare you try to turn a child against his father. Um, listen, his father is in no uncertain terms an unrepentant liar that has made a living speaking lies about his own conversion. Um, yeah, once again, we’ve talked to people that were in the room uh when he was supposedly converted. Um, this young man needs to, for the good of his own soul, um, see demonstrated for him an actual gospel with demonstrable repentance.
Uh, let’s get into something else, too. Um, (chuckle), it’s the age of the internet. How long, first of all, I was gonna ask a rhetorical question. How long should we shelter this young man from the legacy that he is now living? Um, he’s not sheltered from it. You don’t think he’s researched it? You don’t think he knows? Really? Um, we need to call out sin, and we need to call out public sin. That’s what we need to do. Um, I don’t see a a Biblical age on that. That’s not what the age of accountability means. Neither is the age of accountability fifteen for crying out loud. I don’t believe the concept to begin with. But um you get the point. You’re gonna post things publicly for the entire universe to see, expect to be called out on it. People say, well how would you like it if that was your son? Um, I think the proper response would be thank you for letting me know this. Now, it’s not as though, let’s be honest, it’s not as though Caner didn’t know these things. He’s responding to his son back and forth. Caner surely speaks Turkish, right? He knows what his son’s Twitter name means. Um, he he would get that. Uh, (chuckle) well, we would hope so.
Um, and then you know he’s obviously he’s looking at his son’s uh feed to comment off of it, that’s how anyone even knew that he he had a Twitter feed his son. So he knows this stuff. Uh, should he have been the one to call out his son? Um, obviously. But because he didn’t doesn’t mean I can’t. But I what I want people to (inaudible) you say I attacked. Define attack. He posted a make-out pic and profanity on his Twitter. Is that an attack? Vicious? And you know or some that would say, well you you’re using his son against him. I’m using his son’s public behavior to demonstrate the immorality that surrounds Ergun Caner and the lack of holiness that he’s spreading to his children.
Caner’s a Christian leader, or at least he’s a leader of some kind. Uh, he’s at church camps all over the country this summer to lead kids at church camp – his son’s age. Uh, for those just a few years older than his son, he’s leading them, he’s a spiritual steward of them at Brewton-Parker College. It’s it’s the same type environment that was created when I believe he was twenty years old you remember the son of the president of Ronnie Floyd’s school of ministry posting all this atrocious, I mean, uh you know the Bible never says uh profanity is a sin, that type of thing. Uh, posting that at the Pulpit and Pen, um claiming that uh making um vulgar music is wrong but not listening to it or dancing to it.
Um, so when I when I uh discuss the man’s comments on my Facebook page, the young man, not his child, the young man’s comments on my Facebook, excuse me on my website, you have people saying “Well, you can’t use this man’s son against him.” Why not? Does a Christian leader, specifically elder, but I think at least in some way it applies to Christian leadership all together. Should his household not be in order? Should his children not be submissive to him and and to the Lord? Should they be spiritually rebellious? I mean if someone say for example at Ronnie’s school Ronnie Floyd’s school of ministry if his son is behaving this way in public and that’s the level of Bible knowledge that he has and understanding of Christian sanctification and holiness that type of thing, why are you sending your kids to him to be educated by him? Look at what’s happened in his own household.
But uh that’s my take. Now here if you disagree, feel free to disagree. It was interesting because most of the people going after me nine out of ten were anonymous accounts, and I said something that made a lot of em mad, which is, one person said uh I don’t know all the anonymous accounts they all kinda blur together. Um, going after a man’s son is cowardice. And my comment to him was “No, operating an anonymous account is cowardice.” Well then that set off all of the anonymous accounts and then for like two days it’s it’s uh I don’t know anonymous account Armageddon. Um, they’re just exploding in rage. I could have been clear. I could have said, you know, rebuking people by name when you hide yours uh is cowardice. Um.
I’ve I’ve said before on the Pulpit and Pen program there are reasons why there needs to be an anonymous account. I’ve said that. I’ve been on public record as as saying that. Specifically when uh, let’s say you’re someone who uh is close to Ergun Caner, and I mean there are real consequences for you coming out, that’s fine. But if you hide your identity simply to be a jerk to people, um, hey, people call me a jerk you know what I put my name on it. Why isn’t your name on yours? So here we have, you know, most of the people um having such outrage are either (a) Lumpkinites who if this was C.J. Mahaney’s son would be all over this like white on rice. Uh, people that have, and let’s face it, if you listen to the program, I make people angry. I have a lot of people looking for any, absolutely any opportunity to take me out, um, and they use this as an opportunity to do that.
Uh, specifically fascinating is comparing me to Tim Rogers. Tim Rogers who uh and Tim Rogers is so vile I don’t even want to get into it um what he did. Um, you’re going in what in what way is it the same? It’s it’s not the same. His son is grown up enough to put profane things out there in public. I pointed people people to it. And yes, I think it’s relevant to Caner. You don’t think it is? I, good, we we disagree, we disagree.
Now I talked to somebody yesterday, and they said well do you have here’s my question J.D. Do you have anything to apologize for? I said, well, you know, and I’ve thought long and hard about it because people were ticked off. Um, I, I, here let me start here, do I have anything to repent for? Well, you repent of sin. And I ask people repeatedly, what is the chapter and verse that tells me this fifteen year old man’s public sin can’t be addressed publicly? And I would get comments back like well it’s common decency or you sound like a jerk or things less polite than that.
Um, O.K. I, I sound like a jerk. Great. Do you have a chapter and verse as to why sounding like a jerk is sinful? Why can’t I address this young man’s public sin publicly? And why doesn’t it reflect upon his father, particularly when his father is well aware of his public behavior, when his father is in charge of leading children his age? Why is that not relevant, and why can’t I say it? Well, kids are off limits! Great! You got a verse that says that? I mean really, sin is a violation of God’s law. That’s what the uh that’s what the Baptist catechism says. I believe that’s the testimony of Scripture. Sin is a violation of God’s laws. What what law did I break? Well, there’s just this unspoken rule. Well you know what, it’s also unwritten. It’s public. Well, it’s none of your business. I beg to differ. I think public sin, if you love people, call em out on it. And people have said well uh would you have called it out if it hadn’t of been Caner’s son? Of course not, of course not. I have no problem saying that because um had Caner not Tweeted to him (chuckle), instead of a rebuke like maybe you shouldn’t call her your babe, you’re not you know you’re not married to her, you’re not engaged to her, she’s not your property, she’s not your anything. Um, that’s my response. That would have been what mine was. Um, it was Caner Tweeting to him that alerted us, so to be honest, no, no. If if he wasn’t Caner’s son, we wouldn’t have even noticed.
However, what part of the Pulpit and Pen program and what what do you know about J.D. Hall that would leave you to believe I wouldn’t call out sin of a young man with a different last name? Do you really think I wouldn’t call that out if I saw it? Really?
So, um yeah, then the anonymous accounts got mad. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I got distracted earlier. Yeah, the anonymous accounts saying things like “You need to delete that Tweet right now. You need to delete that Tweet.” Um, no. Uh, if you disagree with it, disagree with it. What what does deleting the Tweet accomplish? Nothing. I’m not gonna Canerize it. That’s what Ergun does, Ergun does. I’m I’m not gonna do that. You want to beat me over the head with it, you go right ahead. I mean, I’m not hiding my name, and secondly I’m not hiding the Tweet. Uh, there there’s no point in that.
Secondly, why? To keep the young man’s sin private? It’s already public, it’s already on his page out there for all the world to see. By the way, since then uh since we pointed out the translation of his uh of his Twitter handle he has changed that by the way, like I said earlier I believe the profile photo although I’m not I’m not positive and so you get everything from “You’re attacking children to you’re stalking him.” It’s a public page. Get a life, for crying out loud. Uh, stalking? Uh, Ergun Tweets to someone, we say who’s that, we click on it, pop, right there in your face. Um, that’s just the way it is.
Now do I have anything to repent for? Well, again, repent implies sin. You give me a chapter and verse as to why that’s sinful, not distasteful in your opinion. One person when I pressed them, and they pressed me respectfully but when I pressed them they said “No I can’t, I just thought it was bad form.” O.K. so let me stop there for a moment. Was it bad form? Let me say this. I don’t have a problem saying this. I absolutely regret Tweeting that, um not because it was unfair, it was not at all unfair, not because I went after him quote unquote with a vengeance. I in no way went after him with a vengeance. Um, because it’s distracting from the actual issue. Uh, it sent us on a wild goose chase; it got us off the main point. Um, so yeah, was it unwise? Sure, sure, I got distracted, I chased a rabbit. Uh I apologize for that, but being distracted and chasing a rabbit is not a sin unless you give me a chapter and verse. But yeah, I wish I hadn’t of for sure, for sure. Um, and so the responses have been vicious.
Long-winded explanation by Hall on who he follows and unfollows on Twitter.
The response from Caner should have been, oh my, how did I overlook this? You know what, thank you for bringing this to my attention. This will not happen again. I’ll correct this issue. This could affect my testimony. This could affect my my witness. That’s how it ought to be addressed. Um, I don’t know why it’s that complicated. You gotta get her dander up. If your son was sinning like that, I would encourage um you to uh show appreciation if someone were to point it out to you, um, I I really would.
Now there’s some people gonna say you know what I think the age eighteen is the age that we can address someone’s son. O.K. All right. You you differ with me. Again, was it unwise? Yeah, it got us all off track. Was it sinful? I really don’t think it was. Now here’s the thing though, I’m willing to say, if you can show me a chapter and verse other than you know, common decency, well apparently it’s not that common, right? I mean, if I don’t get it, maybe it’s not common. Um, give me your subjective opinion and viewpoint, uhnwith it give me some scripture that you think is pertinent, and I will seriously look at that, seriously consider it to determine if I have anything to repent for, that’s what I’ll do. I think a lot of people are responding because all they heard was I attacked a child, which uh did not. First of all, I disagree with the term child, secondly if you use the term attack, again, words, yeah, words matter I think. Uh, yeah, O.K. so we’re ready for uh the Voice in the Wilderness segment…
This is terrible.
JD wants chapter and verse? Here it is: “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:19-20.)
Haven’t these people heard of the Scripture that says, the son shall not share in the sins of the father, nor the father share in the sins of the son?
My question to JD Hall, if he has kids, is how would he respond to an adult ya trading his kids in this way, whether on or offline? Say someone started talking like that to his kids in a supermarket. I believe these guys are younger dads, so how about this: what if someone talked to their wives in this way? Asking them to contact them so they can tell them the truth about their husbands? Personally, anyone tried to engage my kids in such a harmful way and I call the law. This is not Christlike behavior.
Melody wrote:
The other issue these goons overlook is that they have no right judging on appearances, and whether or not those they judge know Christ or not is not their judgement call, nor can they expect behavior or perceived modesty to prove anything.
They overlook how Jesus graciously interacted with sinners and prove themselves the kind if religious leaders He condemned.
I also documented tweets that have now disappeared from the internet that show a callousness that is disgusting. There has been no apology made, only arrogant excuses and cover-up.
In other news, I found I had already blocked Dustin for vile attitudes if noted before in twitter discussions. Those who associate with these guys need to watch out. It’s an angry and sick crowd.
And what Tim said. Chapter and verse. I don’t understand these mobsters’ thinking. I never will. True “little Christs” are known by their love. If they can’t weep over people in sin, they should never call anyone to repentance.
Tim wrote:
Wartburg commenters have not been exactly saints when it comes to attacking others. To my thinking, Dee and Deb have often invited the commenters to attack the people with whom they disagree. And the commenters have been all to glad to do just that. ( If you hate C.J. Maney, you might check your heart.)
I appreciate Nick Bulbeck and Nancy who, while frequently commenting, never appear to get into personal attacks. There may be others who I have missed but Nick and Nancy immediately come to mind as thoughtful responders who don’t seem to attack the person.
The cruelty has been astounding to me.
If I was JD Hall, I would be sick at my stomach with shame, guilt, and self-hatred. The man is HATE-FILLED, towards a child! Not that little Braxton killed himself because of JD Hall, but JD Hall certainly did not make the boys last few weeks alive any better.
Dee, I think this is the link to the cached JD Hall “On Caner’s Son” post:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iDTMT0GXNPIJ:pulpitandpen.org/2014/07/02/on-caners-son/+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
The link is in the atheist post you referenced above.
This is all so wrong – the actions of the men/women who take on the role of the Holy Spirit not just in the lives of their congregation members, but anyone they find in their social media radar who might be a ticket to fame.
Sickening too were the twitter exchanges between Braxton and MacArthur’s Grace To You guy, Fred Butler and another JD Hall Montana guy, Gene Clyatt.
Reading all this I kept thinking "WTF makes you think this ANY of your business what that kid was doing?" (
the "you" in quotes referring to Mr. Hall + associates, not TWW)
I wonder if the tragedy had less to do w/what the named people spoke/tweeted/etc than the actions of all their followers/dittoheads. (Has there been anything found along those lines?)
Rhology continues in fine form today on Twitter…. link and quote:
https://twitter.com/Rhology/status/496736652329369600
Rhology @Rhology
Only those who have called Ergun to repentance have the right to offer prayer for or condolences to his family.
It is my prediction that JD & co will not publicly acknowledge any wrongdoing. Rhology continued his deranged opinion today on twitter by suggesting anyone who has not called Caner to repentance does not truly care about the death of his child and has no right to pray for the Caners. Their attempt to cover themselves and take some kind of perverted spiritual high road is mind blowing.
Dustin Germain has also said some very nasty things about TWW and Brad Jersak, a theologian who has helped me a lot with some hard issues.
Melody wrote:
JD Hall DOES have kids. You can BET that if anyone tried to contact his children in the same manner that he did, he wouldn’t stand for it.
@ Feleina Rain This is one mean, bizarre hombre.
dee wrote:
Dee, the fact that JD’s cronies, all that you listed above, are circling the wagons around him and beating off those who now call JD Hall to repentance with snarls and bared fangs, speaks volumes. Where is the love? Where is the Christian witness here? A lost world is watching and seeing the folly of this for what it is, and it’s not Christ honoring. JD’s friends are more concerned with their loyalty to a mere man than to the Savior they profess to serve. I’m stunned. And then when one of them (Rhology) tweets something like that ^^ so absurd and self-serving, I wonder if I’ve just stepped into the twilight zone. This is crazy!
@ Feleina Rain:
He’s got little kids. Wait until they hit their teens. Even God’s kids rebelled!
@ Feleina Rain:
Don't worry. There are some sane folks out here. Can you imagine what it's like at their churches? Good night!!!
Hey Seneca
Do me a favor. Why don’t you express some concern for Braxton? We play fair. We take it ourselves and we give it. And it invovles adults. This was a KID!
Scribings wrote:
We know! Let’s see “The Planned Parenthood of the blogosphere.”We just laugh and blow it off. These people are nuts and it wasn’t worth saying anything. It just encourages them.They are not worth our time.
Now, when it comes to kids-our laughing comes to an abrupt halt and the boxing gloves are donned.
You’ve opened a can of worms here, and now you follow through and delete every derogatory thread you’ve ever made on Driscoll. He has kids, and if they see this blog, well…
See where I’m going with this?
For a start, that JD Hall tweet was near a month prior to Braxton’s suicide, and from what I see, Braxton gave as good as he got in replying to it. It didn’t seem to bother him: more like he was responding to any other troll.
Secondly, Braxton would have grown up with the controversy surrounding Ergun, so this wouldn’t be anything new to him.
Thirdly, he had everything going for him, according to all reports. Travel, football, a longstanding girlfriend and talk of college in his future.
Something else took place here, and that something was big enough to override the joys in his life. Whatever that something was will come out eventually, but it certainly wasn’t that twitter exchange.
Lastly, this thread and those like it will now be pointed to as a caution not to call out the wolves, because we certainly wouldn’t want to take a chance on this happening again, etc.
I do agree that children should never be brought into the controversy, but call out wolves we must, and that is hard enough to do without setting up unsubstantiated roadblocks.
@ dee:
Yeah-Seneca
We have allowed you and your rantings here as well. We are actually long-suffering and you know it.
Hard to find the words… wrote:
Julie Anne Smith is going to discuss Fred Butler in all of this. However, can everyone out there start collecting the tweets? Get screen shots if possible.
Scribings wrote:
It no longer works. Google cache only works fora few days. But, I bet WayBack will kick in soon.
Guest wrote:
Shame doesn’t seem to affect this crowd. They are too busy telling God who is, and isn’t, a Christian.
Sabrae wrote:
That is the most illogical comment so far in this thread. We have never directly attacked a child of Driscoll.
Sabrae wrote:
And you’re telling us how to call out the wolves? ROFL!!! We need to do it with their kids? Good night!
dee, read my post again. :/
*
*
__
Backyard Blues: “Shock Blog(s) – A Joke Too Far, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Someone has posted a comment over at SGM Survivors that ‘re-posts’ another blog’s joke about ‘burning down’ SGM Pastor, Mickey Connolly’s house.
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4247&cp=38#comment-85789
huh?
Is that what you would call questionable cyber use/cyber harassment?
What?
Like Ergun and Jill Caner, SGC Pastor Mickey Connolly (Charlotte, North Carolina) has a family too.
http://sgclowcountry.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/meet-our-regional-leader-mickey-connolly/
http://www.crosswaync.org/
(gump)
What did ‘they’ do to deserve this?
Have ‘certain’ discernment blogs gone a bridge too far, perhaps?
*
…if your enemy is hungry, feed him?
…if your enemy is thirsty, give him a drink?
*
Can’t seem ta recall a scripture saying anything about piling burning coals of fire upon a Man’s house (occupied by his family), …not even in ‘jest’…
*
Skreeeeeeeeetch!
–Not that you loved SGM/SGC less, but that you loved proverbial ‘bully blogging’ more?
…have the blogs ‘now’ come to this?
(tears)
…for shame?
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Adam Borsay
Your comment was deleted because you talked about Ergun Caner. I said in the post that we would not allow this.
If you want to say something, please do so without adding to the already overwhelming number of comments on Ergun. This is about his kid and I am dead serious about this.
That means the link just now quit working, because I tested it when I posted an hour ago. Guess I should have gotten a screen shot when I had the chance!
@ Sabrae:
I did. Maybe I am not catching subtleties tonight. This post weighed heavily on me. Could you spell it out so it gets through my foggy brain?
Did I get put in moderation? Did I say something inappropriate?
@ Scribings:
Never fear. We have it as well. I bet you had it open in your browser. Guess what I did this AM? I had it open in my browser for 3 days. I hit the refresh button by accident and it deleted it. And it would not call it up again. Thankfully, Deb still had it in her browser. I had it in a series of screen shots but that is a pain in the tush to work with.
We have the whole thing in a Word Document and backed up a zillion times!!!
this IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT Hall
I’m curious about what church JD Hall pastored when he was 18 years old. I was a little curious why a website such as Pulpit and Pen did not have any staff testimonies on it, so I did some digging on the Way Back Machine.
Hall’s Testimony is MISSING from the current Pulpit and Pen website, and has been replaced with a short comment about Ergun Caner dated Jan 9, 2014 http://web.archive.org/web/20140109052031/http://pulpitandpen.org/about/“>http://pulpitandpen.org/about/“>http://web.archive.org/web/20140109052031/http://pulpitandpen.org/about/
Here is the original with Hall’s testimony on it dated October 7, 2013
http://web.archive.org/web/20131007191509/http://pulpitandpen.org/about/“>http://pulpitandpen.org/about/“>http://web.archive.org/web/20131007191509/http://pulpitandpen.org/about/
Why from October of 2013 to January of 2014 did JD Hall remove his testimony from his website? Well, I think there’s a few explanations:
*Hall claims to have been the pastor of not one, but several churches at the age of 18. Not only does he claim to have been a pastor, but also a “church planter”. So at 18 he was not only pastoring a church, but planting others-at 18.
*Hall says he came to Montana at age 26, but spent 10 years in Northeast Arkansas first. This at least means he was in Arkansas from age 16 to 26.
*Jordon left the ministry at to become a successful record setting and award winning marketer/business man, but yet claims that he did not find financial success. Pretty odd for someone that started numerous award winning businesses in “various locations in the Mid-South”.
*Jordon went to Williams Baptist College in Arkansas earning a BA in education, and then a MA in History from Arkansas State University. Now if Jordon went to Montana at age 26, and figuring in at least 5-6 years for a Masters degree, how did Jordon become a successful award winning business man starting several other business locations at age 22, while attending college courses toward a BA and MA at the same time before moving to Montana at age 26????
Me thinks JD Hall has some splainin’ to do, but I see why he removed his testimony from the Pulpit & Pen website. No wonder Hall is screaming so loud about “Canerizing”, looks like he did the same thing to his own testimony right before announcing the “Caner Project”. Curious timing for the removal of his testimony indeed!
Posted by: DrJamesAch
dee wrote:
That’s crap Dee.
dee wrote:
I don’t attack people.
@ dee:
Why did I ever doubt? 🙂
Just emailed 2 screen shots – one starring Fred Butler of Grace to You and Gene Clyatt a contributor to Pulpit and Pen. The second with Richard Pierce who I call the social media pitbull for James White based on his posting history. He is President – Alpha and Omega Ministries. It pains me to give him credit, but he did back off when he realized it was young Braxton Caner. dee wrote:
I guess it is OK to be mean, vindictive, pugnacious, prone to brawling, judgmental, heartless, cruel, lacking in compassion and mercy, self-righteous, downright pigheaded, and a fool, unless someone can quote chapter and verse that says you shouldn’t take a dog by the ears via twitter.
Sorry, I guess I missed the don’t talk about part of the post….
To more concisely repeat what I wrote….
I think JD Hall is a dummy and those in his “defense” are not on my favorites list either….but, I have trouble reading his interaction with the kid bullying. Having worked with kids who were cyberbullied (death threats, suicide “encouragement”, mocking, etc) it is a real stretch for me to read bullying into the interaction.
To infer it as such, and then indicate a dotted line from their interaction to the suicide(which is what combining these two stories together does) I think isn’t fair or responsible.
I think there are many other factors that are potential influencers in this particular tragic situation that are more helpful to point out as they are related to many of the problems within the Evangelical “business model” world that TWW and others bring light to and combat.
@ Adam Borsay:
People who were following the interaction on twitter and JD Hall’s subsequent blog post were calling him out on it while it was happening, which was almost a mth before Braxton’s death. JD Hall & cronies were astoundingly self-righteous, condemning, pharasaical busy-bodies, and could only have compounded whatever was going on with Braxton.
Adam Borsay wrote:
I documented what happened and did so extensively. You can draw any conclusion that you wish from this. I can assure you that many are. And not to combine these two stories together would have been irresponsible. They happened within a few weeks of each other.
ROFL
Once it is discovered that the poor boy was gay, you “good Christians” will be here joyously exclaiming his death. Damn hypocrites.
Sure, dee. 🙂
Reading what others such as Todd Starnes – he stirs the pot for a living, by the way – have to say on it, calling out false preachers and teachers may affect their children to the point of disaster such as this, and so we must go along silently with whatever shenanigans they wish to pull on the unsuspecting sheep.
Following that line of reasoning, you would have to pull every Driscoll thread you’ve ever written here.
I agree that family members should never be targeted, but we must – and the Bible commands this of us – expose the wolves.
Braxton’s untimely passing was indeed tragic, but it was in no way tied to his exchange with JD Hall. I’d stake my reputation on it, such as it is. :/
Seneca
Be nicer or it is slow moderation time. There are new visitors right now and they do not have the historical background on “all things Seneca.”
Adam Borsay wrote:
As a former PK, I know this was a downright rotten thing to do. We have no idea whether there was more than a tangential connection between it and his later suicide, but I’m certain of at least a tangential connection.
It made the child a pawn in a God-war, and PKs already fight that feeling of being nothing compared to God And His Great Work.
If you have kids, Adam, protect them from it. Please?
Harmonika
Have you actually read this blog? Good night! Try to comment in such a way that does not demonstrate your ignorance.
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
Not everyone on TWW attacks people either. Some do, many don’t. You might want to define your use of the word “attack” as well.
Arce
This is going to be a long night. You know that we love you but I have asked that no comment critical of the Caners be placed under this post. As you know, we have spoken on that subject,extensively, in the past. This is a post about a teen who was placed in an untenable situation by a blogger. We don’t go after kids here and we want that message to get out.
Sabrae wrote:
And this blog exposes wolves always. Good night! look at our history. I quoted Starnes post for one reason. This story is getting out and we wanted our readers to be aware of it.
Sabrae wrote:
I am happy for your surety. I am not so sure.
@dee re Sabrae
The thing that jumped out at me was that at no time did Sabrae express any compassion for a troubled young man who took his own life or for the devastated family left behind.
I think what Sabrae is referring to is that s(he) does make a disingenuous disclaimer that children should be left out of “calling out the wolves.” I say disingenuous because s(he) starts out with what amounts to an accusation against TWW that TWW is attacking children if anyone whose behavior is addressed on this blog has children who can read. Trying to create an equivalency that just doesn’t exist to what JD Hall and his carrion bird friends did and are doing.
Sabrae also suggests that criticizing the thuggery of these guys creates some kind of roadblock to addressing public sin publicly. I rather think and pray that it might give the next would be bully pause.
And what I think may be Sabrae’s strongest point is that there must have been more to BC’s suicide than the bullying. Of course. Who can tell what the last straw was? But s(he) (disingenuously?) misses a crucial point here. JD Hall’s bullying behavior would have been utterly reprehensible and disgusting even if BC had just laughed it off and proceeded to live out his life. His and his cronies’ defense of it in the face of the suicide is all that and cowardly, too.
My take on Sabrae and may God have mercy on bullies that they haven’t had on the weaker.
@ dee:
Then you should go after Caner for going after the children of the people he sued over his videos.
@JD Hall: If you have to ask why this was wrong, I have to – reluctantly – quote Perry Noble: “You officially suck as a human being!”
But, really: what is it with you guys who always need to compete, who always need to win and beat everyone (even a 15YO boy)? What is it with you players of hardball religion? What is it with you ideologues, you partisan infighters?
Are you so insecure that you can’t be seen to be “losing”, not even to a kid?
I wish you would shut up already! You have no right to say/write anything about Jesus ever again!
Matthew 11:30
Philippians 2:8
Mark 10:41-45
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
What is the point of this post?
You come across as childish and immature; you perceive an “attack” against your own and you retaliate with random accusations.
It’s a sloppy attempt to obfuscate, and it’s a reliable indicator that you don’t really care about discussing the matter at hand.
Sabrae wrote:
I have read this several times and I am still confused. What are you saying? Who is “we” in we must..?
Who are the wolves? What do you mean by “expose” and what in scripture called whom to do what? This whole way of thinking is new to me, that there is a “we” who are designated(?) to do that.
OK, for the sake of full exposure, I do hope you are not characterizing the entire church as “unsuspecting sheep.” That would be inaccurate to say that about all of us.
Phoenix wrote:
Darn it, Phoenix! You nailed it. That is our Prime Directive at this blog. Always remember the victims-the lost, the hurting, the let down….
I think I am tired. Thank you for keeping it real! You nailed it!
@ dee:
My point was that the Caners have turned this into a thing about the blogging critics of Ergun, by authorizing Starnes. And that Ergun went after the children of one of the defendants in his lawsuits, wanting little children to sign documents in that suit.
I still think the post is over the top in linking this suicide to any thing from the blogging community, as the Starnes article did.
If you push that link you should really reconsider the avoidance of any criticism of Caner, else you become a tool in his perfidy.
@ Arce:
We covered that story awhile back. And at this juncture, I do not have the stomach to write another thing about Caner, ever. Give me some time to get over this. This has hit me very hard.
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
Dee – is there some sort of medal for missing the point here? A child committed suicide for crying out loud.
Jimmy – just in case you on some level can hear sense, critiquing christian leaders who do outrageous things is not the same as talking to one of their children & dropping insinuations about their Dad. One is about adults, & their own sin; the other is an older child/young adult & the sins of his Father. Just not on, entirely inappropriate. These are powerful men with twitter pulpits in his Dad’s world – they should have left him out of it. Rest in peace Braxton.
I was ALWAYS taught that if you didn’t like something or someone to just leave them alone? I don’t know what ANY of these men thought they were going to gain from any of this. This world is full of people who are and have double standards, look around. I was taught until your doorstep is totally cleaned you have NO right to stand on anyone elses or judge. May God continue to carry this family during this time. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.
@ Arce:
I get what you are saying. However, you know me. Go back and read. I said that others are taking notice of this.
I try to be honest and include things that I see, including the post from the atheist blog. This thing is starting to explode. I believe more and more will be written about this. I tried to show our readers what is being said out there.
No matter one’s conclusions on this matter, we should be aware of what is being said. i left out one other atheist blog who wrote something similar since it would have been repetitive.
Sabrae wrote:
I don’t worry about Driscoll’s kids getting traumatised reading TWW. I think reading their Dad’s books might.
Beakerj wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh.
Beakerj wrote:
That is Seneca’s trademark. however, he is my proof that I have achieved the spiritual gift of long- suffering.
@ Harmonika:
I sincerely doubt it. The Wartburg Watch is inclusive and a place that is open for discussion, at times spirited. But it is never mean spirited and it is a place that allows differing points of view. They allow me, an atheist, to post here with support and camaraderie from the rest of the commentariat. Your accusations are unfounded and silly.
This is what happens when “Religion” goes off the rails.
People who are caught in it psychologically cannot see the error of their own ways. The “give me chapter and verse” mentality is so representative of the psychology.
In many instances, these people know the Bible, but they don’t understand it. They know all of the verses, and they know how to string together arguments to support what they want to argue.
But they miss the central ethic of the Bible as it relates to our fellow humans. That is to love other people.
I cannot imagine picking up the Twitter account of a 15 year old and commenting on it, dialoguing with the 15 year old etc.
The thing that I can’t figure out is who really cares what these guys say anyway?
There are crackpots all over the religious landscape in the world. Some in my own camp.
These guys seem to fit the bill.
But I am not going to waste my time listening to them, debating them etc.
I don’t know what Braxton Caner took his own life. But if I were a Christian pastor, I would sure want my exchanges with Braxton in the last days of his life to have been redemptive and encouraging. Not what the record shows here.
Hall and the others will have to live with that legacy for the rest of their lives. That rather than help a 15 year old who would end his life in a few days, they are memorialize acting as they did.
It’s an awful thing they will have to live with.
But what’s worse is that they probably don’t even see that.
I would hate to be in their sphere of influence.
there is no cover up, and this post as a whole is very unbalanced. However, if Dee or Deb wishes to email m, I will provide you with a link to the original post or screenshot of the original, whichever is more accessible.
Thank God these men are not part of the civil authorities…..awful, mean spirited, heartless, blow hards. Just attended a local production of Les Mis, all these men could play Javert.
Sincere sympathy to the Caner family.
Also, I’m petty sure that in the next day or so,Rhology will be posting something that you can update this post with, as you will probably regard it as throwing kerosene on the fire and dropping a grenade into the discussion, but i hope you will prayerfully and thoughtfully consider his words
Also, if anyone wants to ask m direct questions about this issue and my view of it, please do not hesitate to ask. i prefer DM twitter but am willing to rspond here
Dustin
I have already read your “esteemed” colleague’s thoughts on the matter at Twitter. And I find them reprehensible. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
As a parent of a teen who recently attempted suicide I feel qualified to speak about the pain and confusion that follows. Was Hall a factor that led to this outcome? Possibly as the psych treating my child told us that for most attempts are spontaneous not not plotted. My child’s attempt came after a big social media fight with former friends. My child was reared in church, no abuse, no substances….. However we still have a child that thought suicide was the only solution. No matter what people think of this boy’s father, his family needs compassion. If these people who attack actually extended grace maybe he would have lived long enough to get help too.
Dustin
I am watching you very carefully. I will cut you off quite qucikly if you descend into your usual commenting style.
@ dee: It's a good thing we have thick skin and nerves of steel. 😉
For those of you who have never heard of Dustin Germain, here's how he described your blog queens and the TWW community a few months ago. Definitely needs to be included in "What the world is saying about The Wartburg Watch".
http://thepaperthinhymn.com/2014/05/19/a-small-sampling-of-the-wartburg-watch-combox-regarding-al-mohler/
Nancy, have a look at Apostasy Watch http://www.apostasywatch.com for a full list of wolves.
I’ve also just read JD Hall’s full and formal apology for his actions which was written not long after the twitter exchange.
Given that, how is this thread any different from the attack on Braxton? Using a public space online for the purpose of shaming is what JD Hall had done and what you’re doing now.
@ Deb:
Woo, florid! If Pen & Pulpit doesn’t work out for him, Dustin could try his hand at writing women’s bodice-wrenching romances. (Aside: if I were them, I'd be a tad worried about the litigious nature of Braxton’s father.)
Deb
ROFL -Germain and his BFFS have few followers and he is probably hoping to get people from here to go over to his blog and tell him off so he can think he is terribly influential. These are mean people and I, for one, am tired of their nonsense.
Kaybee wrote:
Kaybee I am so sorry to hear this, & hope your young person will move ever onwards & upwards for this. I deal with suicidal young people at work frequently, & one of mine took an overdose this weekend. She’s okay, but it was a set of melodramas with her friends that led to this. Adolescents can be very vulnerable, & I think people forget just how powerful problems can seem to you as a teenager that you wouldn’t waste much time over later on in life.
@ Sabrae:
Well, that was part of my question. You mentioned “we” and scripture and I asked about that also.
Sabrae wrote:
Sabrae: Braxton was 15. 15 years old. Not an adult. And that is just the first of several notable ways in which an attack on Braxton differs from what is going on here. What bit about picking on children do you not get?
Melody wrote:
But when God has YOU on speed-dial, your self-importance knows no boundaries.
So these MenaGAWD cyberstalked the kid until he offed himself because of a beef they had with his father? What kind of tribal blood feud is this where you cut off your enemy’s descendants? Whether or not you quote the holy books or make long prayers for it or wipe your mouth and say “I have not sinned”?
Oh, I don’t know, ManaGAWD. Maybe it was because he was 15 and 15-year-olds can say and post some “What Was He Thinking?” things? I know I said and did some pretty dumb things when I was 15, but then I’m not one of God’s Utterly Perfect Pets with Perfectly Parsed Theology. I’m just a guy who in his teens got within radar range of taking Braxton’s escape route, and still have occasional problems with (much milder) depression.
Suicide always crushes family members. When it is your own child, well nothing can be worse. We cannot always understand why a person (especially a young teen) takes his/her life unless they leave a note explaining their actions. Still even that doesn't ease the pain of those left behind. Some of the adults being discussed here sound extremely immature in their actions, but I believe this child must have also experienced many tough situations as any child does when a parent is in the public eye. It appears that this situation has triggered some very emotional (and sometimes misdirected) responses toward other commenters as well as toward Dee and Deb. None of these attacks will bring back this precious child. No amount of speculation or innuendo will comfort the family. As a person who has had three first cousins (all young men) commit suicide, I would like to see more compassion and empathy expressed here. This is not the time to air grievances or attack each other.
A better response is to hug your friends and family and become more educated on the signs of depression and suicidal ideations in your loved ones. Maybe someone here has info on teens and depression and resources to assist young people in crisis. God created each person on this post (however you define your creator) and I am thankful they are alive to see another day. This tragic loss should make us aware of how our actions and words can impact those around us. Ann
I also find the facade that Braxton was immoral on his twitter account via his name & picture totally disingenuous. This is not the way you get a yp to reconsider their actions, even if you feel it’s any of your business.
@ Ann:
If anyone here needs UK resources on this just let me know.
Nancy,
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them ” (Rom. 16:17).
“Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith ” (Titus 1: 13)
“if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet, count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother” (II Thess. 3:14-15)
“a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. from such turn away” for such people are “never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (11 Tim. 3:5,7)
“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject ” (Titus 3: 10)
“false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ” (11 Cor. II: 13)
“If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (See Gal. 1:6-9)
We had better beware of “false teachers … who privily shall bring in damnable heresies ” (II Pet. 2: 1). Faithful messengers will warn the sheep of these heretics, and identify them by name.
Me too, I still can’t believe that grown men would have anything to gain from this?
David C. wrote:
On top of planting and pastoring several churches at 18. Can’t forget that.
Hmmmm… No mention of ever being a Navy SEAL as well….
Wouldn’t be the first time somebody seriously padded his resume.
And ended up getting caught.
Anybody remember Mike Warnke?
“Sabrae: Braxton was 15. 15 years old. Not an adult. And that is just the first of several notable ways in which an attack on Braxton differs from what is going on here. What bit about picking on children do you not get?”
Beakerj,
I do get it, completely.
But, JD Hall has formally and fully apologized for his actions. What purpose does this thread serve, that being the case?
momconcerned wrote:
Ego-boo. The delicious taste of Being Right by proving the other Wrong. And when God is added to the mix, everything is elevated to (literally) Cosmic Importance.
“For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to be absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to be absolutely Wrong.”
— Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
Sabre
You obviously are not following this conversation. Let me spell this out to you in simple terms. Braxton Caner was a minor. JD Hall and BFFs are adults. The adults attacked a minor. If you do not get this comment thread, please stop commenting. You need to focus on the victim. But it is clear to me that you think the victim is one of your buddies. So, you are becoming annoying in your refusal to discuss the victim. You are going into moderation. If you do not like the discussion here, go on over to Pulpit and Pen. They will love you.
@ Harmonika:
It’s obvious you’ve never spent any time reading this blog. Ha! You’re the only one who is clueless. Even the regular trolls here have figured out what this blog is about.
Wow. I’m even more sad now. 🙁
@ Feleina Rain:
Sabrae wrote:
What sort of apology?
“Mistakes Were Made(TM)”?
Singsong “I’m Sorry” without admitting to anything?
Tirion Lannister’s confession in his trial at the Aerie?
To our regular readers
I am expecting a fair number of contentious commenters this evening. Unfortunately, that is the crowd with which we are dealing. I will do my best to keep up with it all. We have never had over 90 comments in just a few short hours and the West Coast folks are still at work!
Dee,
I’m asking serious questions and my commentary is in keeping with respectful dialog.
Your comments to me, however, are childish at best.
I will not be commenting here going forward, but do know that I can take you around the dance floor three times over without so much as breaking a sweat on any topic you’d care to discuss.
Good luck with your blog, but I’ve a feeling this particular thread is going to whip round and bite you on the ass at some point.
Cheers.
I can quote Fred Butler in response to a concerned mother, he said “no one is going after children. But Would you think the same if it was CJ’s kid?” I have the screenshot and I have sent it to Phil Johnson at Grace To You. I am appalled at the callousness. Fred’s second sentence undermines his first. It is always evil to target even the adult children of a controversial character. That most certainly took place here. And much evidence has been scrubbed.
dee wrote:
dee wrote:
JD Hall and BFFs apparently never heard the phrase “Why don’t you pick on someone your own size?” Or were ever on the receiving end.
Their beef was with Braxton’s FATHER, not Braxton. Getting to the dad by attacking his underage son is Real Manly(TM) and Biblical(TM), isn’t it?
I’m a first-generation SF fan, with asides into Furry and Brony. Every other first-gen fan has horror stories of growing up, usually centering around school bullying. I know of at least one first-gen fan who DID make a suicide attempt, and a couple others who came close. I’ve also heard school-age bullies brag about “We’re gonna drive him to kill himself!”
Wasn’t there a proverb…”when words are many, sin is not absent”?
Love that Merton quote H.U.G.!
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
You always insert a certain person into the conversation. I wonder why?
Sabrae wrote:
Has that apology made everything okay Sabrae? Is there nothing to learn from this reprehensible piece of bullying? There are consequences to people’s actions & they are not negated by the apology, least of all for the Caner family. It is also time the wider group of which Hall seems to be a part get a more mature look/critique at what was done. They need not to repeat this stupidity, some of which seems to be based on the embarrassingly immature premise that if you can’t find a specific Bible verse about it it must be okay. Seriously?
RIP, Braxton.
May those who bullied you reap what they have sown.
My prayers to the Caner family for peace and healing.
Deebs, on this statement you printed from White:
“Sadly, I have already seen some using this event as a pretext for criticism—not of Ergun Caner, but of those who have sought honesty and integrity in his life. This needs to stop, immediately. The issues surrounding Ergun Caner’s past can, and must, be set aside for the time being. By all sides, including his most avid defenders. I, for one, will not pursue the issues relating to Caner’s past claims until after a meaningful period of time has passed, and they become relevant to his future actions. I call upon all others to likewise give the Caner family time to grieve and deal with this tragedy. I include everyone in this request. Leave all matters of speculation, finger-pointing, etc., to the side.”
—————
I don’t think White was saying, move along, nothing to see here. When I first read his statement, I read it to mean he was asking ALL people to hold off on anymore “calling Caner into account for his past” and to allow a period of grieving. The “pointing fingers” could mean anything from whatever happened with JDHall to any bloggers who have ever blogged about Caner. It seems fairly broad. White doesn’t exactly have a reputation for allowing people to cover up misdeeds, so it seems to me to be more of a call for people to give the family some time to mourn.
White has been compassionate in the past regarding deaths in the family. I remember when Rick Warren’s son committed suicide last year, White wrote a facebook status giving condolences to the Warren family. Some commenters on his page made snide remarks because they didn’t like Warren’s theology. He chastised commenters for their insensitivity and removed their posts.
Feleina Rain wrote:
I haven’t seen any circling of the wagons around Hall. Do you have links to share from these men listed above, defending Hall? There seems to be a “guilt by association” happening. I don’t even recognize all the names on that list, but am familiar with Chris Rosebrough, Phil Johnson and Voddie Baucham. While I may not agree with them in some areas, from what I know of them, I don’t think they’d be ok with a minister getting into an online exchange with a minor. Just because they have spoken at conferences at the same time doesn’t mean they are all clones of each other.
@ Sabrae:
I don’t see that Braxton was involved in doctrine or heresy or was a false teacher or had taught a different gospel from what Paul taught or was causing division or offenses within the church or a false apostle or a deceitful worker nor yet a man (as is if any man) or that he was promoting some form of powerless godliness. There was no teaching or preaching or theological discussion and hence no heresy. If Braxton displeased his father with his twitter behavior, that had to be between him and his father. For one man to intrude on another man’s family and try to usurp the role of father is not acceptable, regardless of any prior feelings or attitudes between the adults.
Furthermore, this whole mess has seriously upset me both as a parent and former teacher/mentor of teens and children. What hope do we have if the church is unwilling to deal with the abusers in it’s midst? A slap on the wrist doesn’t cut it in this case. I want nothing to do with these guys now, and I see their ministry as irreparably damaged by it.
As to anyone responding personally to Dustin. This took place in a public forum. I personally had blocked Dustin on twitter way before this for the level of nasty he is prepared to engage with. I am not comfortable to engage any of these guys without checking every last fact because they are manipulative enough to focus on red herrings rather than face honestly their own behavior or any possibility they might need correction. I think since this took place in public and they feel the need to pretend it was “nothing”, it is not a good idea to engage privately because you will probably get further abuse for your pains. I truly pray for these guys to have opened eyes to how evil this kind of self-centered bigotry really is. It appalls and discourages me.
An apology is one thing, but there must be a change in heart not just behavior. I pray for this but I don’t have much hope based on the evidence.
Feleina Rain wrote:
Well, isn’t that SPESHUL?
Better stock up on Halo Polish, Rhology.
You’re using it like JP4 on afterburner.
Harmonika wrote:
This is one of the saddest comments I’ve ever read on a blog. It appropriates a tragedy to further a completely unrelated agenda. Sad.
Nancy wrote:
At worst he was a 15-year-old kid (possibly with PK and Famous Father Syndrome) having a couple “What Was He Thinking?” moments in public. And Twitter is effectively PUBLIC. Everything on the Net is — just ask “William Wallace II”.
Beakerj wrote:
As far as I know, Braxton remains dead.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Please note, that quote is from @Rhology on twitter, I didn’t say that!!! Thanks! 🙂
@Dee & Deb – I was just wondering if any of us in the D.C. area came across as "embittered, cackling sycophants".
And by the way, what IS a sycophant?
Folks
I am approving this comment in order for you to see what is going on behind the scenes.
Former CLCer
You all are some of the nicest folks I have ever met.
dee wrote:
DITTO!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Kids do stuff all the time. I about half think there may be something wrong with some kid who never did anything embarrassing.
I spent the majority of my life dealing with 14-18 year old teens. Never, never would I involve the kid with actions of the parents. Especially a PK. Being a preacher's kid is horrible at best. You are judged by what you do, what your parents do, what your siblings do….it is a horrible existence.
It is part of the reason I never attempted to become a minister. I am ashamed that people felt to include a minister's kid with what the father allegedly did or does. But, this is the SBC today. We don't care who we hurt or damage, as long as our goals are met. :/
I read this earlier but I couldn’t comment then, for my blood was boiling, and I might have said what I really feel, which is x rated. Who are these goons, thugs, bullies? Wow. Breaks my heart.
I do get tired of hearing that sharing what someone has said THEMSELVES in a public forum is the same thing as personal attack. That goes against common sense. It is vital that when an adult says something destructive or behaves publicly in an abusive way that fellow Christians call them out on it. Otherwise they will just continue to hurt more and more people. The way we engage each other matters. I see no reason for Christians to have to delete tweets or blogposts or whatever online unless we have made a mistake, confused an issue, hurt someone personally, slandered or misled individuals or groups, or out of respect for what someone is going through. And if so, we must apologize to those concerned as publicly as the event was, and change for the better.
I am seeing too many people simply delete or remove evidence of things they have done without any statement why. That lacks integrity and transparency. Christians are forgiven and loved! There is absolutely no reason to hide or protect our reputation. God will take care of that though we may have to be humiliated first. It is more important that we be right in His eyes! I pray those Christians on twitter will “get this”. No excuses. No brushing off serious abuse. Just humility.
Dee and Deb, I am sorry you are getting so many hateful comments. A child has died by his own hands. Period. End of story. We cannot know everything about his struggles. People want to find a reason or someone to blame. Some of the pastors involved in the story sound foolish and immature. Still the victim in this tragedy is a 15 year old boy. The focus needs to be on the tragedy of teen suicide, not fighting each other. He is not the first, nor wll be the last child to die at his own hands. Each commenter here has probably known someone who has at least attempted suicide. If not, you will in the future. We don’t have it all figured out, so no one here can claim to hold the true reason behind this death. However, we can use this experience to reach out to those who are hurting. I must say I am disgusted tonight. While a family mourns, this site is using this tragedy to tear each other apart.
Thankfully the guys you mention are not clones. There isn’t so much guilt by association as that specific other people got themselves involved in judging the boy concerned. They are each responsible for their own actions.
@ M. Joy:
This is exactly what needs to be focused on. Praying for his loved ones. Hoping this kind of thing never happens again.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I still feel a deep unease and disquiet after first hearing about this tragedy, of someone who left long before his time. I want to give Braxton some credit – I thought he handled the “Kreepy Kristians” on twitter with aplomb – he superbly gave back some fine Twitter repartee.
@Dee, it might be a good idea to post some links to depression help sites, as Beaker suggested she could with the UK? Here in Australia is Headspace, Black Dog Institute and Beyond Blue, among others, for example: http://hannahmodra.info/Helpful_Links.htm
My heart goes out to the family.
Sabrae wrote:
“Any topic you care to discuss” That doesn’t mean you’re right, it just means you’re contentious and like to argue.
I have a teenage stepson as well as a vulnerable younger brother. If anybody came after them for any actions not their own (including mine), I would not be pleasant. My nickname is “Mama Bear” – as in don’t mess with my loved ones or I will protect them with every resource I have. Most teenagers don’t have the thick skin that adults have. So the blunt manner I would hold a conversation with another adult would not work with a teen. I have learned with my stepson that I must be especially careful to make sure anything I say is uplifting and encouraging. It is crucial for him to hear words of love from me and my husband and all other adults in his life.
The loss of Braxton breaks my heart. I cannot begin to fathom the pain his parents must be feeling. The coming days and months will be especially painful, whether it is the first day of school or homecoming or the major holidays. Every single day without him is filled with pain for his family. Over time that pain will not have a razor sharp edge but it will never go away. I will continue to keep the Caner family in prayers in the coming weeks and months.
@ Harmonika:
Congrats, you present as creepy as Mr Jimmy Seneca. I sit in the ‘post-Christian’ camp for wont of a better description, but unlike your preponderence for labelling, I don’t have a fondness for that.
Oh, and Seneca, you did a typo of your idol’s name as “C.J. Maney”. Tsk tsk. And I’ve got to echo a commentor’s response more than 18 months ago (self-kudos for my retention) – that when you come into a ‘room’ the hairs on the back of one’s neck stand up.
Dustin Germain wrote:
I have been holding onto your comments because I was disturbed by this particular comment. I believe this shows a lack of understanding about the seriousness of this situation.Your comments as quoted above have down enough harm. You friend, Maricle, is despicable for commenting about the salvation of Braxton Caner after his death
The last think I need, or want, is another grenade. If this is what you think is needed, then I want nothing to do with it. You are not welcome on this blog if this is your goal. Go toss your grenades over at your blog. You seem to be quite good at it.
7 Comments not approved. Good night.
i think perhaps you misread my intent. i wasn’t saying it in a “you’d better watch out” way but rather in “hey, heads up, this may affect some of your comments” i don’t know what he is going to post. i suspect i will agree with some and disagree with other parts of it. and also as an fyi, i have publicly replied to his recent tweet about Caner and told him that I disagreed, as well as privately have challenged him on it.
Deb wrote:
Alrighty then, I need to put this through a plagiarism detector like Turn It In or something, because surely Dustin Germain didn’t cook up this piece of prose on his own. I can’t be bothered giving it any further literary analysis.
Dustin Germain wrote:
That you are.
@ Ann:
Perhaps you have misunderstood our intent in this post. We are highlighting this situation because we don't want to see Christian leaders picking on children in the social media EVER again.
Dustin
You have a penchant for placing blame on other people. I did not misread your comment. As for your intent, I have no way of knowing what that is since I do not know you.In fact, even if you told me, I am not sure I would believe you. I only know what you said, both here and on Pulpit and Pen, your blog and on Peter Lumpkins blog. I am pretty good at understanding words, having been at this game for awhile. So, if I am not “understanding” you, perhaps you have a communication problem. I am retiring early so your comments will sit in moderation for the night. And, if the “kerosene is poured on the fire” tomorrow, you may as well save your typing fingers. You, along with your BFFs will never be approved here again.
I personally know 4 pastors who have left the ministry. At band practice one day one of the ex-pastors was telling me about how their church had booted them out. He said the worst part of it was that his kids age 14 and 16 were treated very badly. My daughter briefly dated the son. He definitely had issues because of the church problems. this whole subject makes me sick. I may never darken the door of a church again. I can do God's will in my life by listening to Him speak to me. The Still, Small voice is always there. We know what will eventually happen to these false prophets. Thanks to TWW for exposing them. They hate that. These false prophets remind me of the snakes in an Indiana Jones movie.
Phoenix wrote:
That is my take on it, too.
1. It was not appropriate for these folks to hound Braxton because of/about his dad (whatever his dad may have done). This would be as if anti-patriarchy bloggers went after Justice Phillips sniffing around for signs of perversion, just because Doug is involved in a lawsuit about sexual misconduct. I’m also confused why it’s such a huge red flag of immorality for a 15yo to kiss his girlfriend in public, but I didn’t see the rest of Braxton’s Twitter feed so maybe I’m missing some info here.
2. I don’t follow James White either, so maybe I’m missing something again, but that statement in the post didn’t strike me as “move along, nothing to see here.” He sounded like he was asking everybody to leave the Caners alone for a while to let them process and grieve in peace. Which I agree with wholeheartedly.
3. I don’t think we have enough information to definitively link Braxton’s suicide with this incident, however inappropriate/rude/whatever the Twitter exchange and the radio program may have been. Maybe that’s not what you were trying to do, but many will read it that way. Todd Starnes certainly went there (though that’s obviously not related to you), though he tried to make it sound like he wasn’t. I guarantee there were other factors in play here. There’s no way to know what at this point unless 1) Braxton revealed it himself (i.e., in a note, etc.), and 2) someone chooses to reveal it to the public at a later date. If he left no note, even his own family may never know for sure. This is what happened to the family of a woman in my mother’s handbell choir who killed herself in January.
4. @ Dee – I think you may have jumped the gun on Sabrae. Xe seemed primarily concerned with the Todd Starnes quote, which linked Braxton’s suicide not just to that particular Twitter exchange but also the ongoing criticisms of his dad. Xe was trying to point out that someone could use this against you, to try to silence your criticism of any figure with children – i.e., “How you dare you criticize C. J. Mahaney because what if Chad can’t handle it and kills himself?!” Is it a legitimate argument? No (esp. since these same people may not even think Hall’s Twitter exchange was tied to Braxton’s suicide in the first place). But legitimate or not, that doesn’t mean somebody won’t go there.
We all know you’ve never attacked the children of any of these pastors (and you’re absolutely right that attacking/criticizing an adult public figure and attacking/criticizing their children are NOT equivalent). I think Sabrae knows that too and I don’t think xe was claiming that you had done this. I think xe was just trying to point out a way someone could twist the quote to try and shut you up. And I read Sabrae as actually encouraging you to keep pointing out the errors in spite of all this.
5. This whole things reminds me why I don’t have a Twitter account and never intend to get one, and if by some strange chance I did get one, why I would not get into Twitter fights.
Sabrae wrote:
And I would stake mine that it was a contributing factor.
@ Deb:
Well, I think TWW commenters are much better spellers on average. 😉
But seriously, 4chan? Isn’t that like saying TWW commenters = Youtube commenters?
dee wrote:
Or their ISP. Beware folks. These guys are vicious. I am often grateful I live in a time it is illegal to burn heretics.
Dustin Germain wrote:
Dustin, first of all, you need to stop doing a rhetorical mashup of Owen Strachan, John Piper, and Joe Carter, at least in public. Learn logic before rhetoric. That said, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, Dustin.
What is the real Gospel response to a young man who is troubled, even if he is in deep sin? Is it to address that in social media? I think that all of you Gospelly Guys might have considered praying for the son of your enemy instead of attacking him and shaming him in public. You all reveal what you are really about. And I would censure *anyone* who involves children in a fight between chronological, if not emotional, adults. Has any among the harridans here mentioned C.J.’s or Al’s or Mark’s or Ligon’s kids?
But, see, I don’t think you guys are about the gospel at all. I think your actions demonstrate that you guys think you are here to save the world for God and bring in Reformation2. And I find this attitude very curious for monergists. And I know a lot of monergists, but most of them are not like you, thankfully. Many are, however, and they are astonishingly hard-hearted.
Do you remember being 15 and how every day was either the beginning of heaven or the end of the world? Do you even care about children, or are people just pawns in your system? Your tribe makes me so very thankful to not be living under your power. Because that is what this mutant movement is about: Power.
Power without love. Gong Bongers and Clanging Cymbals. Led by the Pied Piper with score by Wayne Grudem and publicity by Al Mohler. No music of the Gospel in the marching ranks of TgC and T4g; there is just the incessant percussion of the gospel Gang and their lust for power cloaked in bibley and pious words.
The irony is that believers like me–heretics to your tribe–are protected by the secular state. And I’ll bet I’m more conservative than most anyone on this thread, but if your words are any indication of what you would do with absolute power, then I pray that the Lord would diminish your tribe’s influence.
For any non-Christians reading here, please know that these people do not represent Jesus Christ as he is revealed in the Bible. They speak for themselves, and I’ll leave it there.
The bullying of this child (and yes indeed JD Hall, a fifteen year old is a child) is despicable. I am reminded of the words of Joseph Welch, counsel for the US Army, when Joe McCarthy was engaging in his witch hunt for Communists and accused a young subordinate of Welch’s in the middle of the hearing.
“Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?”
@ Sabrae:
So all those verses you quote applied to Braxton, a teen none of you guys know personally or have a personal relationship with?
@ Beakerj:
This to me is the worst thing. Hall basically said “Look at this sinful kid, no wonder his dad is so awful.”
It wasn’t just an attack on the child’s father, it was blaming/attaching the child’s (innocuous) behavior to his father’s morality. Not just “your dad is a sinner” but “your dad is a sinner because you, child, are a *mess uo*” (insert very strong language here).
That’s… unspeakable.
“Second, if you have nothing better to do then go through a 15 year olds twitter…”
I haven’t gotten to read the rest of the article yet let alone the comments, so sorry if this is redundant.
But I don’t know any better than Braxton why JD Hall was reading Braxton’s tweets in the first place.
Hester
All I can say is “Did you see Sabrae’s parting comment?? It says it all
Lydia wrote:
What difference does it make if we knew him personally or not. He was a child.
Lydia wrote:
Kissing his girlfriend. Sticking up for his Dad. Pretty normal teen behavior to me.
Caitlin wrote:
Let me guess; these guys are CALVINist?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Seriously.
The Elect is apparently now a thing that is also inherited?
Former CLC’er wrote:
Yes-man.
Brown-noser.
Boot-licker.
Arse-kisser.
Tabaqui the Jackal, following and flattering Shere Khan.
“Elder” or “Armorbearer” in Christianese.
Caitlin wrote:
Megachurdhes and Ministries are inherited, why not God’s Special Election?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
thy KINGdom come
Leslie wrote:
Leslie, You are right, of course. I have been reading their comments in other places (some of them linked above) of them insisting it is a good thing that JD called out what he “knows” was Braxton’s immoral twitter world. (It is ridiculous, btw) They were connecting that to his dad being immoral to have an immoral kid. (reprehensible)
You see, in their determinist paradigm they really do believe they are to call out their definition of sin in other people especially those they have deemed wolves or heretics. I was simply trying to follow their brand of illogic and it fell flat, huh? I pointed out they did not even know Braxton personally and that makes it even worse. How could the verses Sabrae used above to excuse that behavior have any relevance to that exchange on twitter? JD cyber stalked him. It is extremely creepy. He sought him out with a nasty tweet addressed to him.
Their psuedo Christian world is sick and it is a black hole to engage them, I know. I always feel like I need a shower afterward. It is always a mistake to try and reason with them. I should know better. Their concept of god is of a cruel monster that put them in charge of others souls.
Pingback: Remembering Braxton Caner | Thinking Out Loud
Melody wrote:
Russian/Soviet Bureaucratic Tradition:
If there’s no paper trail, It Never Happened and You Can’t Prove It Ever Did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
I hope this is not OT but combines thoughts from two threads.
I have spent some time, starting at Scot McKnight’s blog, reading about how we should all just accept Driscoll’s PR release apology. In my view, he has not apologized for his real offense which is arrogantly degrading people who are made in the image of God and for whom Christ died. It isn’t just the way he said it, but it is the content of his rants and the heart it betrays. He says in vulgar terms what the hierarchicalists would like to say but can’t.
He pours out soul poison like it’s Perrier.
I would also like to highlight the irony that Driscoll’s defenders point to his youth (age 31) when he wrote it. Using old math, that is more than twice the age of Braxton Caner (age 15). Not sure how that works out in YRR new math.
Driscoll’s “youth” supposedly mitigates what he wrote, according to his apologists’ talking points, but Braxton, age 15, is fully responsible as an adult for acting like most every 15 year old boy acts or at least would like to act. Or so I’ve been told.
Here’s another data point conveniently omitted by the YRR apologists: Driscoll, age 31 chronologically, WAS A PASTOR AT THE TIME HE MADE THESE REMARKS ON A FORUM SPONSORED BY THAT CHURCH. No apologies for shouting. Braxton, OTOH, was a high school student.
Math and logic are hard because you have to think. Not necessary, however, if you aspire to be a spokesflack or parrot and bask in the reflected glory of your gods.
So here’s another thing to consider for any YRRs: even *if* Braxton had left a note blaming something else for his despair, what these purported Men of God did was still grievously wrong and outrageously sinful and brings great shame to the name of Christ. Much more shame than a boy, age 15, posting pictures of a kiss and using profanity. Oh, wait, profanity is OK if a pastor, age 31 or 45 uses it and commands wives to engage in various activities should their husbands demand it. Oh, wait again. That’s only if he is a rigid Dortian and hierarchicalist. I keep forgetting these important distinctions that make all the difference in the world. If he’s not part of the tribe, then Bad, Bad, Bad.
YRR logic. Maybe Dustin can explain things to this mean and nasty little old lady. How old are you, Dustin? What have you accomplished in the world other than develop a really bad attitude and inherit a Y chromosome? Oh, wait, my bad again. I’m a woman, so you don’t need to answer to me or any body-partified male who agrees with me.
Now I need to go and repent of my own self-righteousness. 🙁
Dustin Germain wrote:
Dustin, How could you possibly shed any more light into the situation? The evidence is plainly before all of our eyes. Anything that you add to it is just after the fact. I watched the conversation on Twitter. Little did I know that when I was copying the tweets in early July, it would end like this.
Dustin, do me a favor and read this and encourage J.D. to read it: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/08/the-folly-of-demanding-repentance.html
This ongoing hounding of Caner is old. A life is lost. I hope I never see another tweet from JD Hall and especially another tweet or blog post about Ergun Caner. If you are a 5pt Calvinist, you believe that God is Sovereign, so why the hell do you guys go on like this? If you believe God is in control, then He is big enough to handle Caner Himself and does not need you guys helping him.
A side note to TWW readers: as Dee said, I will also be posting an article. I had hoped it would be today, but that’s not happening. As I started rereading the tweets, it has been messing with my head and bringing up old junk, in addition to the fact that I have 2 teenage sons who were on either side of Braxton’s age. So I’m going to just chill tonight and hopefully get to it shortly. I will be covering a different slant. Dee, your article excellent article and special thanks to Deb who transcribed all of that. I can’t imagine listening to that podcast, stopping and restarting to make sure you got all of those disgusting words.
@ Deb:
How does such a sanctimonious guy like Dustin know what 4chan is or what the content there is like? I wonder how much time he spends there?
@HUG
Does Hall claim to be an ex-SEAL?
Gram3 wrote:
Jonathon Merrit wrote the same thing. One would think they know nothing of Driscoll’s history of speaking of repenting, then deleting, repenting, deleting, etc. Only this time he could not delete.
This incident is the kind of thing I expect out of my go-to cult, Scientology, not a bunch of Baptists squabbling among themselves. I’m speechless.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
Um, yes. This. I haven’t been on here for a good while because of feeling convicted to press on in what I am “for” rather than focusing on what I am “against”. That’s just my walk right now. There’s a silence after suicide that is deafening (I’ve mentioned on here losing my brother that way) and for me makes me check my own heart once again. I agree with this whole comment. Bold comment. And true. None of us are above reproach. In this case the damage is glaring. In many cases it’s not but it’s there, rippling out.
Lydia wrote:
And the thing is, it’s not just 14 years ago. Only two years ago, Driscoll said some terrible, untrue things about the Biblical character Esther, comparing her to a candidate on the TV show “The Bachelor,” instead of looking at Esther within context. You know, as a woman from a subjugated people, who had no rights in herself because she was female, and who was essentially taken to be prepped as a sex slave.
Driscoll’s never apologized for that either. But it so reflects how he sees women. It’s disgusting.
Lydia and Julie Anne,
I think that a moratorium on calls for repentance should go with a moratorium on demands for apology acceptance. Balance. Facts should be discussed and analyzed and false assertions should be refuted. I agree that the acceptance of apologies/forgiveness and repentance belongs to the Holy Spirit as Wade and others have said. What distressed me about Scot McKnight’s OP was that I didn’t perceive that balance. But maybe that’s because I feel the weight of abuse more than my own sin. I wish that he had brought the incident with Jesus in the Temple into his discussion because it seems pertinent to the topic of religious authorities behaving badly. He always makes me think, though.
What is not really being addressed in much of this is the issue of mental health. Back in the good old days when the Christian religion held the secular sword mental health issues were sometimes dealt with in a very decisive manor, the person with a mental illness was killed. Sometimes they killed them, then exonerated them and made them saints later on. Ok maybe only one time on the latter.
I have been told to repent many times online, that does not bother me, sometimes its quite helpful. Dr. Caner was working the system, when one joins the franchise one has to maintain market share or die. Dr. White on the Dividing line said a few times, very loosely quoted (Dr. Caner’s “real” testimony” of just being a young nominally Muslim convert to Christianity. In stead of hyping his CV.). I would say no its not, if you want to limb up the ladder you have to pay the freight. Its a business first, always first is working the party line, shaking the trees etc. We all have a shtick of some kind or another to some degree.
I mean maybe a way to handle it would be when Dr. Caner is going to talk at a church you send one email pointing out the issues then pray about it. Then you leave it alone or speak of it a bit but not to the extent some of these folks have. Just my opinion.
Back to my point Mental health issues are not dealt with well by the church. We can do better in my opinion. As for debates, just because you are good at debates they are not the arbiter of truth. We live in a different world now we are inundated with information and this can lead to massive overload.
If you want to see another Author who panders to the audience and plays fast and very loose with the facts go read “Battle for the Beginning.”
Deb and Dee, Thank you for this comprehensive write up. Having been heart-broken for my dear friend and his family, it is good to hear others calling out those without compassion. And it seems obvious to me, after Dr Ach’e post, that JD Hall is not only guilty of Cyber Stalking, but of the same “sin” that he has accused Ergun Caner of committing.
Dee
You guys (gals:) did a great service with this piece as hard as it is to read. I’ve read heck of a lot of stuff on the internet over the last 8 years since I’ve been blogging. Nothing compares to this present issue so far as the intense level of emotion stirred–at least for me. Similarly, no person or group of people have demonstrated the level of pure disgust, hatred, and insensitivity as the wad of social media wackos connected with JD Hall. And, I mean that literally. These guys make Westboro appear closer to a centrist position.
Additionally, I’m a little confused presently because I find it half way amusing Dustin would come here suggesting he’d answer all questions off the record. Uh? Excuse me? You mean they want to speak privately about this? Sweet Georgia Peaches! Will they ever stop shocking us with the words they have the audacity to publish? Perhaps Dustin could offer us a “chapter & verse” for his rationale.
On the other hand, remember nothing is REALLY PRIVATE with these guys. They love to secretly record conversations and post private emails on blogs (happened to me again a couple of weeks ago; two guys after service wanted to be “transparent”–their word–with EC & me. Yes, they secretly recorded the entire conversation, a conversation in which they insisted they wanted “transparency” through it all). I just ain’t got the words…
With that, I am…
Peter
Ergun Caner apologized on his blog in 2010 http://www.normangeisler.net/articles/ErgunCaner/
Ergun repented before his board in 2010, according to a statement published in the Liberty University student newspaper http://www.libertystudentnews.com/?p=520
In 2013 one of many curious videos accusing Ergun Caner of being a liar and running statements from Liberty students surfaced on YouTube. It is a well-done rehash of the news report from 2010 and was posted by “MuslimbyChoice” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5RbxSUFki0
A good question in all of this is to ask who started all of this? Why have his apologies been ignored? Are people too ignorant to understand that most people at schools are not free to talk about the details of their firing or resignation–to include any admission of guilt that would made the school look bad?
Finally, as it relates to his son–it is absolutely plausible that after spending his entire young adult life watching his father being hounded, he was under tremendous pressure. It is also entirely plausible that the nature of the exchange with at least one tweeter could be defined as cyber stalking. Also the sheer breadth of the comments could have seemed daunting in the month leading up to his death. I don’t think anyone has suggested anything else.
I read through this post with the terrible burden of how the actions of clueless and vengeful adults can affect young people. I work at a private school where I am only allowed to access my students on school accounts, and where all contact is to be appropriate. Not following those norms would quickly put my job in jeopardy because teens do not process the way adults do. Even adults might have had cause to take these pastors’ (I do not believe they deserve the title, by the way–pastors do not destroy the sheep) comments to heart and do something unthinkable. I hope that some legal recourse is possible for the family because the folks responsible for these horrible comments really need to be help accountable for what they have done.
Nicholas wrote:
Not that I know of. A couple years ago, there was an article about Fake ex-SEALs and the ex-SEAL who keeps the master database to expose fakes said that for some unknown reason a lot of them were clergy.
My heart goes out to the Caners for what must be an inexpressible hurt and pain they are going through. My prayers are with them. I would be very concerned about the real civil liability I would have incurred had I acted in this manner, apology or no. I would also be extremely concerned about the possibility of having violated Federal statutes regarding hate speech or hate crimes, given the possibility of the youth being considered a minority (i.e. 1/4 turkish), at which point there would be a real possibility of my doing time in a Federal penitentiary.
Patrice wrote:
He couldn’t hold a candle to Paul Sheldon’s Misery Chastain sagas.
@ Sopwith:
You are a special creature and I love your comments.
M. Joy wrote:
M. Joy, I am guessing there are many like myself who are not saying “guilt by association”, but asking why these men listed are associating themselves and supporting people like JD Hall et al by participating in their conference while months of online postings reveal the character (or lack of character) of these offenders and their methods? Scroll through the last several months of the tweets, facebook posts, and blogs of the Montana players. Sadly, I quickly recognized people with direct connections to Grace Community/Master’s seminary/Grace Advance. I’m not as familiar with the people associated with the other ministries represented by the list so I cannot speak to the others.
The men on the “list” could have checked the posting history and online presence of the Montana group and it’s Pulpiteers. You have to ask why the men on the list participated in the conference in June of this year and why we are not seeing immediate responses from the listed men saying they do not condone the behavior so well documented online. For example, a quick search online would reveal the following on the Pulpit and Pen Blog (this being from Jan 2014):
“The Pulpiteers
The Pulpiteers are a unique group of rabble rousers that use their social media to get out the Truth about evangelicalism’s need for Reformation. They are a Gospel-centered army, using their social media to advance the cause. They follow the Pulpit & Pen blog, subscribe to the podcast, and receive email alerts about how they can be activated at a moment’s notice to spread time-sensitive information in their spheres of influence.
To become a Pulpiteer, click on the link “Become a Pulpiteer” on the homepage and you’ll start receiving updates.”
Wouldn’t that be an interesting read – the list of enrolled “Pulpiteers”. More importantly, should this have not been a red flag for the men on the list – reputable men in high profile ministries? What is going on?
This one still leaves me shaking my head in disbelief… Fred Butler from Grace to You – tweeting to Braxton Caner about Christian women walking around in underwear referring to Braxton’s teen girlfriend’s swim suit? These men may not agree with her swimwear choice, but who made them the Holy Spirit in her life? Then Gene Clyatt sends a link on where to find modest swimwear to Braxton?
Something’s rotten out there. I am not saying “guilt by association”, but I do ask why they participated in the conference and in turn promoted the Montana organization. Dr. MacArthur et al, guys on the “list” et al, you need to be asking why you attract these kind of authority hungry men. These men are somehow empowered to play the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others.
I would suggest reading Julie Ann’s story. Her former pastor runs in these circles. Sadly you will find familiar names in her story too.
Someone said we will know what happened eventually. And the truth is we will not. Ever. Only God and his child know. The pain for families of suicide lingers long, forever. Rest in peace, dear young soul.
My thought after reading through this thread is that -children are precious. We love and protect children. But children have parents, their world is their family. Once an issue is brought into the light, and those directly involved are dealing with it -does it really add anything to heap on, speculate, dig in and chatter about? I’m just asking. Does it bring anyone directly involved to their knees in prayer?Can a careless word hurt parents and not hurt their children? Seems like sometimes pointing fingers doesn’t leave room for God. We try to do all directing for Him. Assuming someone will not feel shame or be convicted renders the Holy Spirit useless. I’m not above these temptations. I’m just bringing them up in hopes for some thought on it. I’m tired. Not sure if my point is clear.
I think that is a terrible thing to do, to pretend to be an Ex Navy SEAL or Air Born etc. I find that very troubling and disrespectful to those that have actually served in those capacities.
brian wrote:
Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.
When I was in college, one guy I knew who WAS ex-82nd Airborne told me that if anyone wears some decoration or title they WEREN’T entitled to, any vet who WAS entitled to said decoration is supposed to shove the fake decoration down (or up) the most convenient of the faker’s orifices. Sideways. Multiple times.
Honor of the Regiment and all that.
HUG said “When I was in college, one guy I knew who WAS ex-82nd Airborne told me that if anyone wears some decoration or title they WEREN’T entitled to, any vet who WAS entitled to said decoration is supposed to shove the fake decoration down (or up) the most convenient of the faker’s orifices. Sideways. Multiple times.
Honor of the Regiment and all that.”
Now that would be an interesting apologetic. Always love your post HUG. Hope everyone has a nice evening.
@ K.D.:
I’m a preacher’s kid, and I remember being 15. That combination is no picnic, and that was in an era when people who wanted to be spiteful at me because it was easier than taking it to the Grownups in Charge had fewer available methods.
I grieve for the pain that Braxton must have been feeling, and I grieve for the people who are missing him. May they feel the comfort of God’s presence.
Leslie wrote:
I know him personally. He was a great 15 year old kid with a girlfriend. ( my niece) I appreciate this forum for having factual information listed and available. I do know of the effects of the text tweets etc. on Braxton. And, the person in question also texted another young member of the family the day before the funeral. So, again, I appreciate the format. It’s not over till it’s over. Love God, Love your neighbor. Please continue to pray for family and also for those involved in seeking Braxton out and engaging in conversations. Ty. Gary. @bullyjusticeHeadless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Harmonika wrote:
Harmonica: you can’t tar many here with that brush. Of the range of projects my team runs for vulnerable young people – we are a secular org not a church though- is a LGBTQ group for those dealing with issues pertaining to gender or sexuality. I’ve defended this to other Christians as what is most important to me about these young people is their vulnerability, not their current morality. I’m far more interested in getting them through adolescence alive (not hyperbole for some) so they can then deal with spirituality, meaning, God & morality later. We love them & understand life is a process that takes time, not a single sermon that gives you a pass or fail at the most wobbly of times.
Muff Potter wrote:
🙂
Kathy Bates!
If you to call out a brother (not that I agree), why do so on Twitter? A public attack is to shame someone.
Speaking the truth in love would look something like, um, maybe calling the guy or going out for coffee to check in and ask what’s up? And probably checking out the plank in your own eye before you do.
Gary Cheek wrote:
Thanks for chiming in. Dee and I have been deeply burdened since we first learned of Braxton's death. Please express our condolences to the Caner family. We will keep all of you in our prayers. May you find peace in this tragedy. 🙁
Jackie wrote:
Ditto!
@ dee:
Yes, the parting comment was rude/snippy, and I don’t agree with Sabrae that Hall’s apology covered all the bases (he obviously attacked Braxton), but I still think the intent of his/her original comment may have been misread. Though I will say I did have to read through it a few times to make sure I understood what Sabrae was saying, so I think communication could have been clearer.
@ Gary Cheek:
Seconding Deb – thanks!
@ peter lumpkins:
Thanks for your comment. When we learned of Braxton's death, we had no idea that there was a back story. Please express our great sorrow to the Caner family.
Praying this will never happen to another child again.
@ Sarah:
We can’t say all public criticism is bad – if we did, that would take down not just TWW but also a huge chunk of the religious blogosphere on the right and the left. (And lest you think I’m defending Hall, I’m not – almost all Neo-Calvinist bloggers would get shot down under this rule too. See Tim Challies calling Pope Francis a heretic for just one example.) We can publicly criticize if the person has set themselves up as a public figure. But Braxton hadn’t, thus (part of) the problem here. Also all public criticism doesn’t rise to the level of harassment/bullying.
This is another reason I hate Twitter fights. Usually, whenever I’ve read them, because they don’t allow for enough space to develop a thought, they make it look like all parties involved (include. the ones in the right) are just trading insults and/or sound bytes, even when the exchange was not intended as harassment and in fact isn’t. So, IMO, not a good medium to argue an issue or make a point, for anybody. Even FB is a better option.
@ Gram3:
Yeah, that didn't make sense to me either.
Broken blockquote in last comment.
Melody wrote:
I hate to be “that guy”, but nothing above is actually Christian, although it sure sounds nice and is likeable. Because 1 Cor. 5:12ff make are clear: the church is qualified to judge those who claim membership in the body. “Who am I to judge?” is BS. Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Then we are fully equipped to evaluate a person’s behavior in the church!
notyourtypical wrote:
If someone goes after my minor child as these men-o-gawd did Braxton, I’ll take screenshots and file a police report. They can then answer to the civil authorities established by God.
What kind of person requires a Bible verse in order to use basic, common sense in how to treat someone – especially a child?
What Mr. Hall considers “sins”, Braxton’s parents may have had no problem with. This was legalistic, hit-over-the-head-with-the-Bible nonsense.
I am very, very sorry that a young man has died. Truly, my heart goes out to his family.
notyourtypical wrote:
OK, time for you to take it back a notch. You have an opinion on a particular doctrinal nuance. You may believe it with your whole being but that does not give you the right to denigrate the opinion of another.
I happen to deeply disagree with you. The local church is NOT the arbiter of who is saved and who is not saved. The local church can say what they will and will not allow but that does not make them right by any stretch of the imagination.They can say that you will be thrown out of the church for disagreeing with pastor. But they cannot say that that person is not saved.
We live in a world that is quite sinful and that sinfulness has invaded the church. Sinful men and women, in positions of leadership, are making all sorts of judgments that have little to do with Scripture and everything to do with their own penchant for wanting control over others. Narcissism may have something to do with it.
Again, you have the right to say that this church will not tolerate “x.” But to say they are not saved is way beyond your pay grade. What Rhoblogy said about Braxton Caner AFTER his death is despicable. The boy made a profession of Christ, served in missions, etc. Decency and a sense of humility would cause any thoughtful Christian to pause. However, I haven’t seen much humility, or decency. in this whole affair.
Once again, we are discussing the death of a young teen. Try, hard as it might be, to contain your exuberance over your opinions.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I will say this. if this gets out of the tight little circles these guys run in and gets thrown into the court of public opinion, it will not sit well. There is a thing called common grace. One part of that includes a basic understanding of right and wrong. My guess is that the vast majority of Christians as well as non-Christians would judge the interaction with this boy and thee subsequent post, comments and radio show has over the top.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Thank you for your kind comment.
Anonymous wrote:
This is one of the best comments that I have read on the subject. Thank you.
Anonymous wrote:
Actually, they’re probably strutting around going “PRAISE GOD!”
Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Speshul Pets.
Kaybee wrote:
I am so grateful that if appears your child survived his/her attempt. Your comment is poignant. If only they had reached out in love to this boy. If you read their blogs, love seems to have little to do with their actions. They believe love is pointing out sin-everyone else’s sins.
Patrice wrote:
Thank you for the laugh. And the second part of your comment is something to consider.
No More Perfect wrote:
Those whose minds are nothing but sound bites of doubleplusgoodthink. No higher brain functions required; just blind reflext: Stimulus, SCRIPTURE(TM), Response; Stimulus, SCRIPTURE(TM), Response.
Deb wrote:
Oh, it will.
As long as there’s Witch Sniffers with God in their pocket and an Utterly Righteous Cause that justifies ANYTHING.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thank you for sharing this. It nails the reason why people need to lay off teens. You are not alone in your depression. Many here have struggle with it. I have as well. It is part and parcel of living in a fallen world. Thank God we have something to look forward to.
Ann wrote:
I think this is an important comment. Anyone who has followed the controversy that has swirled around the Caner family, which these men have, would appreciate that there was much strain on that family, and especially on his kids. Any compassionate person would get that you do not had fuel to the fire. Compassion is missing in some hearts out there.
@ dee:
Notyourtypical is the actual author of the quote you responded to, not BeenThereDoneThat.
@ Sabrae:
Great Scott! Let’s begin the Bible verse wars. You post some and then I post some and we convince everyone, right?
Janey wrote:
Now that is a funny comment.
@ Sabrae:
In case you are wondering why she was banned, this comment says it all. Narcissism infects a number of people in this group.
Melody wrote:
I wonder what Phil Johnson thinks about all of this. He is a friend of JD Hall. In fact, I would believe his mantra is WWJD- What Would John (MacArthur) Do?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
School yard bullies-a great description. I cannot believe that these men did not consider the circumstances surrounding this situations. Surely they took into consideration the stress on this young man. Didn’t they????
I agree that JD Hall’s behaviour was wrong. But it is also wrong to insinuate that it was the cause of Braxton’s suicide. If folks really want to speculate about such things, they must ask themselves a simple question:
Which cuts deeper? A blog post by a stranger who was soundly rebuked by nearly everyone who commented on it, or the discovery that your superhero father was a fraud of monstrous proportions?
The answer seems pretty obvious to me.
@ Bridget:
Seneca doesn’t get it or doesn’t want to get it. I hate child sex abuse and churches that cover it up.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
My point in this “apology” is this. Why did the audio about Braxton stay up after the suicide if there was a real apology? Also, the apology was made and the blog post stayed up until we told them to take it down the night of the suicide. Is there something missing here?
Ann wrote:
I think there are quite a few who are using this post to say “never, ever again.” As Anonymous posted, this boys’ last weeks were spent coping with some men who decided it was time to tell him what a sinner he was. Then, after he died, one of that crowd said that he was not a Christian which means something about his afterlife. I continue to be shocked by this crowd.
A dozen times over the past four decades, I have had to bear (and sometimes share) the crushing news that a friend has attempted suicide, with over half of those succeeding in bringing their life to a premature close. So, I relate with the reflection that “Suicide doesn’t end your pain, it transfers it to others.”
The death of Braxton Caner is tragic. I’m sobered and grieved at a life cut short.
We’ll never know all the seed factors that likely caused such excruciating emotional pain that escape via suicide seemed the only solution. We’ll likely never know for certain if the specific social media interactions between Braxton and certain adult males served as an immediate cause of his actions, or amped up other vexing issues.
But I think we can fairly assume in general that the online behaviors of adults who take to task an unrelated minor could certainly implant and/or amplify that child’s emotional pain. Such actions are despicable. They cannot be shielded theological under “calling out” a kid for what they see as immoral behavior.
In response to the news about Braxton Caner, I spent several hours researching cyberstalking, cyberbullying, and cyberharassment … and the Twitter Rules and Terms of Service on abuse … and thinking about the state of uncivil discourse in a digital era.
I discovered that, as with mandatory clergy reporting of known/suspected child abuse, the laws or lack thereof for these cybercrimes are still on a state-by-state basis. (In case you’re interested in those laws, here’s a link. http://www.cyberbullying.us/Bullying_and_Cyberbullying_Laws.pdf .) If there had been sexual advances involved, there’d have been little question of culpability on the part of the adults involved.
From the Twitter Rules, I also had confirmed what I suspected, that Twitter doesn’t screen or referee the content that is posted, but will respond to allegations of direct threats of violence and also to reports of targeted abuse/harassment. For the latter, they use very broad rules to interpret *abuse* and *harassment*. In general, I think that’s understandable, since no one can specify everything that would be considered abusive. But maybe the situation with these unrelated adults interacting with Braxton Caner should lead Twitter to add official guidelines about inappropriate interactions between adults and minors on their platform, and what actions Twitter takes in response to reports thereof.
There have been a few comments here and elsewhere suggesting that if said adults were working in professional positions — for instance, as teachers or coaches — and they engaged in these kinds of apparently inappropriate interactions, they’d have been fired. Period. So, surely those who take upon themselves the role of “virtual pastor” shouldn’t be exempt from scrutiny or responsibility for their social media interactions with minors — nor should any other kind of adult.
All of this led me to think about why this happened on Twitter, though I suppose it could have happened on Facebook, a blog, or some other form of social media. It struck me that maybe it has to do with a naturally inflammatory match between (1) a theology of moral perfectionism and its rigid requirements and practices for behavior modification, and (2) a communication medium that caps the length of statements. Thoughts have to be clipped to the core, which makes them particularly susceptible to be (or be interpreted as) barked-out bursts of militaristic commands to be morally perfect — and potentially soul-maiming invective shrapnel for supposed moral failures. Not the best format for civil dialog or discernment …
In the aftermath of Braxton Caner’s death, it seems we’re seeing that most people who hold this kind of rigid, moralistic theology have no apologies for such online actions, only apologetics to justify them. I don’t think they see how truly damaging their “inerrant theology” is, and I hold out only small hope that they ever will. Their entire system seems geared to instilling in its followers an utter lack of conscience about *true* right and wrong, good and evil — the “pastors and prophets” have 100% correct answers to every questionable thing, and you should just shut up, trust them, and do what they say. And, there is little to no empathy for anyone wounded, no compassionate care. Disastrous events such as this death certainly shine a spotlight on their “theology of the seared conscience and the hard heart.” Maybe there is some hope they will let the light leak through into their own lives … and they themselves desperately need the mercy that they seem so unwilling and/or unable to extend to others.
Haitch wrote:
I love this comment. Also, I will try to get up some resources. I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment.
@ Haitch:
🙂 Frankly, it made us laugh. Bless his heart!
Leslie wrote:
I get it. One day, we will all stand before the Almighty who will probably not be giving gold stars out to those who go after His sheep.
@ Tim:
Chapter and verse….very clear. Shame on those people. My brother is involved in a shaming group/cult like these jerks. “The Church in Indianapolis” where they spend all their efforts looking for sin — in other people. What a terrible tragedy rolls out from groups like these.
Want to root out sin?= in the world? Start with yourself. Once you fix that, then we can talk
Hester wrote:
twitter is essential if one is trying to stay up on stories. Often people post new information, posts ,etc there long before it gets out elsewhere. It has been a useful resource. However, after my encounter with Joe Carter, I will not get into a Twitter discussion again.
@ Gram3:
Darn, this comment should be a post. Excellent.
Caitlin wrote:
This is an important comment. i was trying to allude to this in the post and you said it better. Can you imagine the burden on the his son?
formerly anonymous wrote:
This is important. Why was he reading his tweets? I don’t remember visiting social media by any child of any person we write about on this blog. Also, i do not remember anyone tweeting about any kid of any pastor.
peter lumpkins wrote:
This is just another example of why I was warning about the ISP when visiting blogs of that movement. People really have no clue the depths some have gone to.
Caitlin wrote:
Wait until these “elect” boys’ kids hit their teens.
peter lumpkins wrote:
Funny thing abut this comment. I was fixing to post a comment why I am annoyed with Dustin’s offer to discuss things on Direct Message. I had planned to warn our readers that anything they say or ask could be used against them.
I am sitting here thinking about the pushback that will occur for Deb and me. I am expecting serious attacks to descend. It has already started.
As for recording private conversations, everyone should check out the recording laws in their individual states. Here is a link.
http://www.vegress.com/index.php/can-i-record-calls-in-my-state
For example, North Carolina and Georgia are one party consent states. In other words, only one party to the conversation needs to know about it (usually the recorder). It would behoove everyone to be aware that you could be recorded at anytime.
@ dee:
I can’t even begin to start with how wrong that theology is, if nothing else. It’s very Gothardesque.
LInn wrote:
Great comment. 15 y.o. teens do not process things in the same way adults do,. That is why they cannot agree to legal contracts, join the service, etc. The law recognizes it even if certain pastors do not.
Also, I agree with rules restricting adult contacts with minors. I am glad to see that some entities have common sense.
dee wrote:
Wisdom comes from experience, and there are so many people who have changed their tune on some issue or another thanks to personal experience. But something tells me they wouldn’t make the same “mistake”- not that their children will be morally upright (and never date/know a girl who wears a bikini?) but that they will strictly control the face their children present to the world. Not, mind you, to protect them from bullying, because they don’t see it as bullying, but to maintain appearances.
Always maintain appearances.
Hard to find the words… wrote:
I am often impressed with the number of churches and pastor who jump on a bandwagon to “belong” to something, anything. Does it give a false sense of security?
Why would we suspect that people with this ideology–that they are God’s “KGB”–would stop with just teens and twitter? There are lots of ways to do damage to vulnerable children, thereby trying to run the competition out of business. Start nasty rumors comes to mind. Get some kid bully on site to put out the word that the kid is to be picked on or shunned. Kids can be maligned on anybody’s e-site; it does not have to be their own. Anonymous phone calls to their pastor or school or parent or after-school employer. The entire community must stand together and insist on safety for the kids–everybody’s kids, regardless of who or what or when. Adults who “go after” kids must be seen for what they are and steps must be taken to prevent this behavior.
peter lumpkins wrote:
I grew up in Salem, Massachusetts. “You guys” is genderless!
Caitlin wrote:
In the words of Chesterton, the difference between “Heavenly Virtue and Hellish Respectability”.
dee wrote:
The dynamic of Preachers’ Kids is in effect. And PKs crack up in one of two ways: Total Rebellion or Can-You-Top-This Conformity.
Marilyn Manson or Fred Phelps, nothing in-between.
Is there some connection between these guys in Montana and the american redoubt movement? I have read that some (most?) of the redoubt people are reformed, but I have not read anything bad like this stuff about them. Does anybody have any information on this?
dee wrote:
Even the Predestined Elect, with their Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Cards signed before the Foundation of the World?
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks for your excellent comment. You have given us much to ponder, especially the part about teachers, etc. who might engage in such Twitter behavior would likely be fired.
Julie Anne wrote:
As usual, JA, you make it real. I think many of these people believe that they are assisting God in His sovereignty. The line gets crossed when it bleeds over into attacking the family. Although Hall walked it back, he accused the Caners of having marital difficulties.
The same thing happened to us when we had a dustup with a church on the child sex abuse issue. Funny thing, two of the elders who led the attack are now divorced. Thankfully one elder apologized for spreading the rumor. When conflict occurs it appears that it is pillage and burn time.
I look forward to reading your thoughts on the matter. You have awesome insights and I know I will learn something from you.
Haitch wrote:
“Kreepy Kristians” — GREAT TERM!
(Which also echoes the start-every-word-with-K shtick of the KKK’s “Klonversation”.)
Gram3 wrote:
Good comment!
Gram3 wrote:
Another good comment
Lydia wrote:
Their god is Omnipotent but NOT Benevolent, a personification of POWER and POWER alone.
And they are just being like their god.
Rob wrote:
🙂
dee wrote:
“I THANK THEE, LOOORD, THAT *I* AM NOTHING LIKE THAT FILTHY PUBLICAN OVER THERE!”
@ David C.:
I suggest that everyone read this comment. i did not know that Hall was award winning, successful business man, planting churches at 18 etc. After this dustup, my guess is he will be looked at closely by others. It could be embarrassing. Thank you for alerting us.
Paul (quoted by atheist blog Paul) wrote:
I am so glad you wrote in. That comment by you was excellent. I wanted to be sure to include it in our post. Well done!
@ brian:
Could you please link to something in which Hall claimed to be an ex Navy Seal?
dee wrote:
To the tune of “Dueling Banjos”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icWkyedURkM
“QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
“QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
“QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
“QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
“QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE! QUOTE!”
(Guitar riff; stop quoting, throw away their Bibles, and go at each other with teeth & fingernails…)
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Worth repeating.
@ Bridget:
Been there,done that
I knew that comment was not BTDT. I am writing so fast I linked to her comment in which the other person was mentioned. i corrected it. THANK YOU! So sorry!
I’m so deeply troubled by this.. that poor boy. I’m so sorry for him and for his family.
JD Hall should be ashamed… but I doubt that he is, not when he is actively attempting to justify his bullying (calling a 15 year old a man? Really? The kid was born in 1999. 1999! I have a pair of shoes older than him.)
My dad is not a pastor, but he was involved in a church split when I was 15, and I was on the receiving end of angry comments from adults who didn’t like him, and thought I should know it… it is extremely painful, let me tell you. Adults should know better than to involve children in their disputes.
Update on comments.
1. TWW is a cesspool. Repeat x 10.
It has now been said several time by several people. I am putting it here for all to read.After awhile, it makes no sense to continue this comment. Try insulting us creatively. However, I will keep a count and update the numbers of “TWW is a cesspool” later.
However, from this point forward, we will not post another comment about cesspools. It is getting ridiculous.
2. On Dustin Germain’s comments.
He is asking to communicate with people via Direct Message which is “private.” Please feel free to go over there and discuss. Do remember, anything you say can be used against you.
He claims he will give you his phone number so you can speak on the phone. Also, remember that said conversations may not be private.
As for now, I will continue not to post his comments. He has a blog. He can answer to his heart’s content over there.
The Navy Seal thing was a joke, right?
@ Sergius Martin-George:
I have no idea. Usually I can catch jokes but I am a bit overwhelmed today.
A terrible tragedy. As far as JD Hall goes, it bears repeating: what was a grown man doing reading a 15 year-old’s Twitter account??? And as far as calling out “wolves”… Sabrae, please undertake a serious study of the bible from one of the larger traditions (more than one) before you attempt to discuss the scripture from the perspective of a responsible reading. No, your local church is not the epicenter, and neither are you or any so-called celebrity reformed/fundamentalist leaders.
dee wrote:
Warning. It is a black hole of redirection, obfuscation, reframing, proof text wars and circular logic. The goal is to put you in a corner with their superior debating skills. And your contact info is not safe. If they could, they would call your pastor. Ironically many here are nones which makes you in even more sin! :o)
@ Lydia:
I bet the Deebs will now be declared “unregenerate.”
@ dee:
TWW is a stagnant pool full of mosquito larvae.
TWW is a collection of satan’s toenail clippings and plucked nosehairs
TWW is the remains of a rather grotesquely large housefly, that spontaneously combusted on a window pane, being eaten by another housefly.
@ Gary Cheek:
Gary thanks for sharing that with us.
dee wrote:
You can join the club. They are good at instant marginalization.
Dustin Germain laments that Babdists aren’t shouting “Amen!” in the middle of sermons enough anymore: http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/08/05/anatomy-of-a-sermon-from-amen-to-applause-lines/
“Show Me SCRIPTURE(TM)!!!!!”
— Raul Rees, Calvary Chapel West Covina, c.1980
Nicholas wrote:
Comment edited to delete references to Ergun Caner’s situation by editor
Some quick comments:
1. When Peter Lumpkins commends you, you’re in trouble.
3. While Hall’s engagement with Caner’s 15 year-old son was foolish, it’s doubtful it rises to any legal definition of “harassment” (or “thuggery”). It was brief, Braxton didn’t tell him to stop and Hall didn’t continue after such a notice, there were no threats or incitement to suicide; and it occurred almost a month prior to the apparent suicide.
5. One would think that a site that majors in attacking religious leaders wouldn’t jump on another such “discernment ministry”.
6. One wonders if (God forbid) one of TWW’s favorite targets, like Marky Mark, had a child who did the same as Braxton as a result of TWW words, if TWW will take the blame.
7. What goes around comes around.
Nicholas wrote:
“All Dance Joyously With Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!”
dee wrote:
If anyone has never been the recipient of abuse from so-called “private” conversations, please google “star chamber.” If your state allows you to record calls on your own consent, then I’d advise recording the call yourself. You may need that recording.
Lydia wrote:
I got the “redefine everything into Semantics then crush the enemy with Superior Debating Skills” treatment outside the church in SF litfandom in the Seventies. Former Berkeley debating team and intellectual snob whose favorite thesis was The Superiority of Communism and the USSR.
Funny thing was, two years later I ran into a preacher who could have been this guy’s twin brother — close resemblance, same delivery, same semantics tricks except for using a Bible instead of a high-end HP scientific calculator for PROOF. This doppleganger’s thesis was Catholics = Nicolaitans = SATANISTS, drawn from the fact that Greek has two words for “priest”.
By the way, one of JD Hall’s charges was that Braxton’s Twitter name translated to a vulgarity. You can get that interpretation only by translating each word separately into Arabic and it doesn’t make sense that he would use that particular handle even if he wanted to call himself a vulgarity. So I decided to do some Googling and discovered that it is actually an online game, nothing to do with body parts. Another indication of Hall’s creepy obsession, looking for something to criticize in the Caner family.
Sergius Martin-George wrote:
Yeah. Because (A) it’s a very over-the-top thing for a loser to brag about in compensation and (B) ex-SEAL sources said clergy seem to be prone to it.
Kind of like the 100-lb 14-year-old loser bragging to everybody that he’s really a Ninja Master. You saw guys like that in Old School D&D, but they tended to run super-perfect super-powered super-characters instead of claiming it directly.
Bee wrote:
We are discussing an adult going after a kid. We don’t do that.
Bee wrote:
I have no idea what the law is and wouldn’t presume to say anything about that.
Bee wrote:
This makes little sense. You say Braxton didn’t but Hall stopped after such notice. Braxton knew he was dealing with an adult and called him creepy. That should have been a clue that he was uncomfortable.
Bee wrote:
We didn’t attack the “discernment ministry” whatever that means for going after leaders. We said it was inadvisable to go after their kids.
Bee wrote:
You are probably not a regular contributor to this blog. We do not do this for compliments. We do this to discuss issues of interest and concern to us. We would do it if nobody complimented us.
Bee wrote:
You guys really enjoy threats, don’t you?
Marsha wrote:
Interesting.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrade.
Purity of Ideology.
Long. Live. Big. Brother.
@Bee
One quick question. Do you even care in a normal human way that a young life has been snuffed out and a family is desperately wounded?
@ dee:
Braxton called him “creepy” for criticizing his father who is a legitimate target for the reasons you censored my previous message to remove.
Why have you now turned to help the cover-up of Caner?
dee wrote:
Donald Trump, Wesley Crusher, and Doogie Houser all rolled into one, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Gary Cheek wrote:
Thank you for the comment. Please express our sympathies to your niece. We are so sorry.
Bee wrote:
Oh good night! We have written extensively on the subject and you and your buddies know it. So stop that nonsense.
Once again, this was about an adult going after a minor. Period.
@ dee:
There was no threat in that comment. You appear to be deliberately misinterpreting statements to further your agenda.
If you’re going to carry on a site that’s all about criticizing religious leaders and you now attack someone else for doing the same, don’t be surprised when one day your criticisms become part of the story in another tragedy and others blame you for it.
Bee wrote:
Read the post. I said that this particular post was not for criticizing Caner. I said it would not be allowed.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
This link gives a good explanation of “star chamber” as applied to spiritual abuse.
http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2012/04/facing-your-spiritual-abuser-index-of.html
Phoenix wrote:
From Bee’s comment between Phoenix’s and mine, Bee sounds so tunnel-visioned on Getting Caner that he’s invoked Scientology’s Fair Game Law in all but named. The Cause is Get Caner and anything goes if it advances The Cause. I’m sure everyone in the Wartburg Watch massmind has seen this dynamic before.
@ dee:
Stop acting innocent. TWW hasn’t covered the Caner story in months or years and you deliberately censored my post to remove factually true statements about Caner’s history. You’ve helped cover him up and are now being commended by his chief propagandist Peter Lumpkins.
Take a breath, a step back, and take stock of what you’re doing.
dee wrote:
I interpret that second sentence quite strongly. I don’t know all the details of what the final judgement will look, sound, taste, smell or feel like – it will probably be a much fuller experience than is describable in mortal language – but we are certainly given some hints about it. I don’t believe that any dishonesty or deception will be possible; not even the self-deception practiced by the most hardened sociopath who can, in this life, lie deliberately and without conscience.
This belief worries me, actually, because I have a suspicion I’m better at self-deception than I realise. Nevertheless, it does colour my approach to statements like the claim by Mr Hall that his twitter approach to Braxton Caner was in no way an “attack” [quotation marks in the original].
I would love to write a eulogy for Braxton, but of course I did not know him at all; anything I wrote would be contrived and disrespectful. But when everything hidden is made known, I hope he will receive an authoritative eulogy that cannot be tarnished by anyone or anything.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I will disagree with this bit of an otherwise excellent comment. People suicide because their pain has become too much to bear. With teens it doesn’t take much to get there; with adults it usually takes a long time. Suicide goes against all survival instincts, so we have to feel absolutely horrible to trump them.
Yes, it is a gigantic wrench to the survivors, causing deep pain, confusion, and anger, grief, but they manage to live on so no, it’s not a transfer, sorry.
I can say this because I tried to kill myself once (after years of endurance) and failed. Consequently, I had to continue dealing with what I couldn’t bear, as well as fam/friends’ pain/rage. I only survived because I hied me to a psychiatric facility that knew what it was dealing with: ComPTSD, not Bi-Polar.
But getting there was purely God’s intercession because I had to track it down myself, finagle the extra money required, coax estranged husband to care for our daughter, and also coax someone to drive me there. Because they were angry at me. I almost didn’t make it; truly, it was only God and I still don’t know why.
People do not know what it can be like.
@ Marsha:
Thank you Marsha! Every. single. word. from these guys must be “tested”.
Bee wrote:
OK, this is becoming tedious. I did not attack them for “going after” a leader. I said it was wrong to go after the kid.
Stop. Pause. Take a deep breath. Reread.
From this point forward, unless you acknowledge this, i will not let you go on and on about us attacking people who go after leaders. You know, and so do many others, that we have commented extensively on the Caner situation in the past. Peter Lumpkins knows this as well.
We are against adults who go after kids! x100.
Bee wrote:
Get some reading glasses and actually READ the post. As stated above: “This post will focus solely on what we believe to be the inappropriate actions and words of adults that were aimed at Braxton Caner. Any critique of Ergun Caner will not be allowed in this discussion.”
@ Bee:
OK-you are not getting my message.
For this one post, and this one post alone, do not bring up Ergun Caner’s past. TWW has nothing to be ashamed at in this regard.
Secondly, stop with the lines about us covering things up.
You are now in permanent moderation. If you play by the rules for this post, your comment will be allowed after approval. If not, it will be deleted.
I just deleted one of your comments.
@ Patrice:
To be thorough re above comment, there are rare people who suicide out of spite or revenge. That is the worst kind of self-righteousness imaginable because one sacrifices one’s life for correctness. Hyper-selfishness. But it is tres rare.
Bee wrote:
Oh nonsense. Wartburg Watch covered the resolution of the Caner lawsuit on May 14. Everyone here knows of the problems with his résumé. It doesn’t have to be repeated ad nauseum when there is no related news. Why are you so obsessed?
Bee wrote:
This is the way people in this movement think. There is no reasoning involved. They want us to "defend" ourselves against their accusations because it sucks you into their framework and their reasoning. It is the saddest movement I have ever witnessed.
@ Bee:
Now you are showing your laziness. We have talked about the situation in the near past. Its called a search. Do it.
Another comment not allowed.
@ Patrice:
Oh my word, Patrice. It hurts my heart to read that. I am thanking God right now for being there for you. May it be a lesson to me to seek out others who are alone and need help to get help.
@ Lydia:
I give up. There is a search engine which will answer their accusations. I am starting to bang my head against a wall.
Frankly, we will upset everyone on this blog at some point or another. We have our own way of thinking and we do not march to triable politics.
Eagle and I once had a discussion in which I said that one day I will disappoint him with something that I say or do. I don’t want to but it is inevitable. The world is messy.
Patrice wrote:
I am so, so sorry. I thank God that you are here with us.
@ Marsha:
I am flummoxed. I am beating my head against the table trying to communicate. These people sound unhinged and I think I am becoming unhinged. I think i will go and drown my sorrows in spaghetti.
@ dee:
I second what Dee said, Patrice. Also *very* glad that the people who helped had what seems like far deeper than usual understands of symptoms and sources …
Patrice, so glad you are here to be a blessing to me and others!
Bee wrote:
The thing is, a lot of people, including he-who-is-not-to-named-in-this-discussion look a lot better than the guy in Montana right now. The only person I see targeting somebody’s kid is in Montana, not Georgia.
RichardM wrote:
@richardm I will not get into the debate as to whether The accusations against Ergun are legit. I know many are not from my personal relationship with him. That is not the pint here. His 15 year old son was targeted by men who had no relationship with him or his family. I have a 14 year old son that was looking forward to meetin Braxton soon. If a strange man begins converting with him, I must say that there will be definite and sure consequences to be paid. This goes beyond theological differences and accusations of lying. That line was crossed when JD Hall sought out another man’s son. As to knowing his dad was a “fraud of monstrous proportions”, just because the claim was made a a group of people jumped on the bandwagon does not give anyone the right to verbally attack the man through his son. And I ask again, where is the Love of Jesus, the Compassion of Christ, the following of I Corinthians 13 and Jesus the to the Church in Ephesus? It is immediately apparent that many have left their First Love. JT
dee wrote:
They’re not “unhinged”, Dee. As I just commented at Spiritual Sounding Board:
These guys are EVIL.
And from the Third(?) Commandment on, Torah, Tanakh, and NT repeatedly pronounce curses upon those who do Evil while invoking God as justification.
“And for justification (you) make long prayers, therefore YOU will receive the greater Damnation!”
@ dee:
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks, you two. I am still not all that sure, but it is what it is, that much I’ve learned, w00t
Yah, it was back when domestic PTSD wasn’t in the heads of the psychiatrists/psychologists, but was just creeping in through the avant-garde back door. And the complex sort was only a sparkle in the eye, one published article concerning a subset Vietnam vets.
I dont know why you offer a public rebuke to me, and then when unlike other people, I offer to make myself available for questions or correction or more direct conversation, you block my messages and then try to turn on me for mentioning DMs, even though I explained precisely why I prefer them (ease of communication) , and more importantly after I specifically said I was more than happy to discuss publicly. Id also be more than we willing to discuss things either on my own or someone else’s public facebook page if that was theur preferred method.
dee wrote:
I know that most of the dumb things that I said at 15 (and later) were when I was convinced I was one of the (as HUG called them) “God’s Utterly Perfect Pets with Perfectly Parsed Theology”.
And going after a 15yo boy on the internet? Come on? How old is JD Hall? 40? If you think at 40 that you have to have the last word against a 15yo on the internet, that really is an amazing level of immaturity.
What JDHall and his ilk don’t understand is that hardball religion is the opposite of what Jesus does. With Jesus, you don’t have to “win”.
Actually, you can only win if you are ready to lose. Jesus won by losing – losing even his life.
@ Marsha:
You, my dear, are a mental health bulwark and as much as I can support that, delighted.
dee wrote:
1. I did a Google search when I first read this and just did another. All I see are links to foreign PORN sites. I even added “game” to the search and the results were the same. No indication through several pages that this is an “online game.” I’m open to correction if I’m wrong.
2. The words are Turkish, not Arabic, and they do indeed translate into the phrase indicated by Hall.
3. I wonder why, if it was just the name of a game, that he changed it.
That’s all I’ve got. I have been as critical as anyone of hewhomustnotbenamed’s decade of deceit and do not think this topic can be fairly discussed without mentioning the name, but out of respect to your request I will not go there.
FWIW, I think it’s a huge stretch to speculate the brief exchange we read between Hall and Braxton caused him to take his life almost a month later. Braxton seemed to handle it just fine. We do not know if there were any private exchanges between them or between Braxton and others, but for Starnes and others to “blame” this boy’s suicide on what I read is a huge stretch.
I would be more concerned about his “about me” quote on his old Twitter account (@braxtoncaner89): “I’m here for a good, not a long time.” Yes, I realize that’s a song lyric, but I find it a bit disturbing coming from a then-13-year-old child. Could there have been undiagnosed depression or other issues 2 or 3 years ago? Even if it is just a song quote, that could be interpreted as him saying he knew wouldn’t be around long. If I were a parent or friend and saw a kid make that quote, I’d be concerned. Did no one ever read that and think there just might be a problem?
Oh, to the person who asked (I think it was here) if it was definitely a suicide, it was. The coroner’s summary is on the Tarrant County, Texas site. They stated a time of death – 6:54 p.m. CDT which was around the time the Brewton Parker rally would have been in full swing or about to wrap up, the means of death (if you care to read it — I’ll spare the details out of respect to the family), and that he was “found” in an upstairs bedroom, not that it was simply a death. I just hope he wasn’t “found” by his little brother. My sympathy goes out to the family in this tragedy and time of unfathomable loss.
@ JT:
The main accusation against Braxton’s father is that he built street cred in the Christianese Lecture circuit by seriously padding his resume with a JUICY past a la Mike Warnke.
Now we see that JD Hall (whose Twitter-bullying probably contributed to Braxton’s suicide) also SERIOUSLY padded his resume. (Multiple church plants and pastorates by 18? Is his real name Doogie Houser or something?)
Gus (from Austria?) wrote:
“For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” = People do dumb things in general.
“Stupidity is like hydrogen — it’s the basic building block of the universe.”
— Frank Zappa
Dustin
I told you that I did not appreciate the “grenade” comment. It caused me to be concerned about further negative commenting that could cause greater damage. I am posting this comment now. I hope it says what you want it to say.We get it. You want to talk about it and you have lots to say. So, here it is.
Gus wrote:
Yeah, right? People who, against all the effort and pressure of time, remain at the maturity level of an early teen when in their 30’s (like Driscoll) or 40s (like these sillies), are simply not eligible to be leaders. It is patently obvious. Even to a 15 yr old!
Who are the proper people to remove them from their positions? I don’t know how these guys are connected up (because I can’t stand more than a quick read of them while frowning and pinching nose.) The Gospel Coalition crowd?
notastepfordsheep wrote:
1) Was that “brief exchange” a part of a longer exchange or continuing pattern?
2) Whichever it was, it couldn’t have helped.
3) And it still doesn’t explain the Creepypasta factor of a 40-year-old Twitter-harassing a 15-year-old.
I wonder if the timing (during the Brewton Parker rally) is significant. Could the rally going on have been the final trigger that pushed Braxton over the edge?
Bee wrote:
Bee,
You are coming across as obsessed. This not about Caner’s history, as documented by you or anyone else. The main post makes that crystal clear. It’s about JD Hall creepily hassling Braxton online, and the clear wrongness of that.
You are the one who needs to take a deep breath. In fact, you might consider going away until you can understand that this comment section is not at all about the elder Caner, or Lumpkins, or anything like that. Your posts are irrelevant to the subject at hand.
Talk about “covering up” and “chief propaganist” is polemic, not serious conversation. I am nobody in this thing, but I am getting tired of hearing you pushing your agenda. Simmer down.
I understand. I also understand this is not the forum to debate fact, fiction, and accusations concerning my dear friend and brother in Christ. Perhaps at a later date in another forum.
For now, just let me say that a young man is dead, seeing no other way out but taking his own life.
While the evidence is circumstantial and perhaps debatable, it appears the only stressors in his life are directly related to the verbal assault on his papa and the the confrontation between a grown man who was a stranger and himself.
I believe that God has greater condemnation on those that bring harm to a child. This never should have happened, and I pray that it will never happen again. dirwer@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Too little too late. Now time to stop defending yourselves and start that repentance you are so fond of calling everyone else to.
dustin germain (@paperhymn) wrote:
Patrice wrote:
To use an expression that I use very rarely and reluctantly… THIS!
Pingback: The Rise and Fall of J.D. Hall | PhoenixPreacher
For Hall and Co., this is what we should all be outraged about: https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/493958619914698752
roebuck wrote:
Aack! The dreaded THIS!
There be will no comment from rho at this time such as I had indicated or previously. I mistakenly thought there would be and thats my error.
Any plans to allow the rest of my comments which addressed some of issues sent my way?
Tim wrote:
I told you it was reluctantly 😉
Bee wrote:
For the umpteenth time, here’s the difference: →Neither Deb nor Dee would even think of making someone’s child a pawn in their parents’ games ← Same for the regular commenters here. That’s because we know what it a child is and we know what it means to love them.
To be kind to you, I will repeat what I’ve said here earlier: →it is of utmost importance to protect PKs← They already carry a heavy burden, being made to run second behind The Ministry of The Lord.
Our God who died for us, who resides in each of us as Himself-the-Holy-Spirit, who even counts the hairs on our head—that God doesn’t take kindly to people who do opposite. And if it is done in His name? Well, I’ll try to be on the other end of the room when such people meet God someday.
Nicholas wrote:
I noticed the scripture on the calendar is “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Somehow it doesn’t surprise me that Hall and cronies are dissing it.
I posted Chapter and Verse Matthew 18:15 over on Hall’s twitter. How can someone not know better?
For those who don’t know it:
If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, JUST BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
@ dee:
The focus is a 15 year old teen who was targeted by an SBC pastor on twitter. Even if he had not committed suicide that is still reprehensible and shows a total lack of wisdom or discernment. It shows an agenda that has gone off the rails. And that twitter exchange alone would be worthy of a blog post. I am not sure why folks cannot get that part.
However, the teen killed himself a few weeks later and intead of some searching their hearts on this over a precious human life, too many are scared that the “other story” will get lost and are quick to insist one had nothing to do with the other when they cannot really know that for sure. I am not sure how to even compute that in my brain. Where is the value of the precious human being in all this? Have they thought this through?
Teens are so vulnerable. Can people please understand this? Similar adult to tween bullying was done to mine because I dared dissent in the mega seeker world, too. I won’t relate it here but this event has been very triggering. It is nasty, evil, hateful stuff when they have exhausted aveneues to get the parent, they go for the kids to try and turn them against the parent. Everyone with a teen knows they already have issues with their parents over natural every day stuff as that is part of seeking their independence. It is insidious, vile and evil. I just hope not too many Christians have not become so calloused they cannot see this for what it is.
Pingback: Who is Rhology? What is a #pulpiteer? How Do They Function? | Spiritual Sounding Board
@ Kaybee:
Thanks for that, Kaybee. This particularly: “However we still have a child that thought suicide was the only solution.” From my own experience of it, yes, the act sits inside the actor and in all those around, for the rest of their lives. My sympathies for that, truly. There seems no place to put it.
@ Lydia:
Yes, please. We can be loving observers of each other and when an observation comes up weird, just to ask, to see. That would be lovely. Even if angry, you know? Anger is fine, but just to still notice and ask…
notastepfordsheep wrote:
The only reason that I didn’t link to the gaming site was because I was on my cell phone and I cannot figure out how to do a link on the phone. Here is the link for the League of Legends game. http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/48116088#matches
It comes right up when I did the search on the cell phone search engine but not on my laptop which I am on now so I had to go back to the phone to find the site again. I don’t game and don’t know much about it but I know that many teens do play online games. When I saw this site pop up, I posted about it because it just made more sense to me that it would be gaming connected than a vulgar term which does not actually apply. Why assume the worst?
But even if I am wrong, I am far less bothered by a little vulgarity from a 15 year old trying to find his way in life than I am by adult men targeting the children of their theological opponents.
Dee, I hope you are able to take a break and rest from such a loaded comment section. Honestly, I think some people here are trying to bait you and derail the conversation. Some commenters just want to “prove their point”. You have given some commenters a lot of leeway and they continually ignore your warnings. I for one wouldn’t mind you deleting anything not related to 1) this tragic suicide 2) the potentially harmful outcome of electronic bullying 3) protecting vulnerable children from irresponsible adults 4) condolences to the Caner family or 5) any productive discussion of depression/ suicide. However this is not my blog. In fact, I would not have the “rocks”( as our female loving friend Driscoll says) to deal with trolls and “haters” (a word borrowed from another great man of God-pastor Furtick :-)). I wouldn’t blame you and Deb if you “closed shop” for the day, went out for a drink and use some of these comments for target practice. (As any red-blooded Southern woman would do!) Keep up your good work. Ann
Dustin
I want to make a suggestion to you. Why don’t you post at your blog that you want to be in touch with those who are concerned about your actions. I notice that nothing has been posted there for awhile. Somehow I feel like you are using TWW in order to get your message out. You have a medium. Could you kindly use it? If you post something I will alert out readers that you will be over there.
I tire of you telling us that a grenade is about to be thrown. Then you say”never mind.” Please get you story together and post over there.
@ RichardM:
You sound like you may be saying that preachers are so special, including in the eyes of their own children, that finding out that dad and his cronies are not that special would drive a child to suicide. I have known several PKs (there are right many of them around) but not met one yet who based his reason to stay alive on his father’s specialness.
Richard M
I have deleted your comment because you did not do what I requested. You went after the father.You then claimed that I denied any issues in that matter.
It is obvious to me that you have not read my blog nor used the search engine. The two of us have spoken out on the issue on a regular basis. Everyone who takes a minute to check would know that.
I am getting quite angry that a group of you have decided not only to disregard my request, but also to deny our concerns in the overall matter. You have either not done your homework or you have decided that we must walk lockstep on each and every way-jumping when you say to jump, etc. Do your search and cut out the nonsense.
As for the suicide, you better read what lots of people are saying and carefully read what I have said.
notyourtypical wrote:
If you don’t want to be “that guy” then don’t be like those guys. Use careful exegetical techniques, and I think you will find that 1 Corinthians 5-6 are not speaking to the issue we are addressing here. But if you insist, then I suppose that those of us here who are appalled by the behavior of such self-appointed spokesmen for God have the authority to declare these purported pastors to be outside the body of faith. Is that really where you want to go with this? These chronological “men” are not part of the Braxton’s local fellowship and had no relationship with the boy, age 15, in question. You’re not, by chance, Jonathan Leeman are you?
RichardM wrote:
Your omniscience seems pretty obvious to me. Wow. Have you ever contemplated suicide? Known anyone who has? I don’t think that what you write demonstrates any understanding at all of suicidal thinking. Have any of your children ever been stalked by an adult online or elsewhere? Especially by “pastors”? Ever had an adult interpose himself between you and your child? Do you have children? That question is relevant because everyone who has children knows that your viewpoint BeforeChildren and AfterChildren changes in lots of areas.
Bee wrote:
Bee, kindly explain the relevance of anything involving his father’s actions or theology to the matter under discussion here, namely the nearly indescribably despicable behavior of “men” who claim to speak for God and act on his behalf. This is deflection and nothing more. It is helpful, since dismissal doesn’t work in these circumstances because there is a dead child, and it’s hard to minimize that undeniable fact. If you feel the need to talk about the father, then do so where that is the topic under discussion. A rational person can vehemently disagree with the father’s theology and actions and still find the behavior of these “men” reprehensible.
Lydia, Dee, Deb, Brad: Ditto.
Has anyone heard from Dustin who said he would respond to questions here? Maybe there are some other manly leader authoritative masculine men who are duty-bound to instruct women will show up to demonstrate their leadership. Or probably not, in my experience. As soon as you show up with exegesis and logic, they disappear or resort to ad homs.
Gram3
I have asked that Dustin begin his defense on his own blog. he has one. he needs to use it as he has in the past. i said I would send our readers over there who wish to converse with him.
To Our Readers
This website it getting an incredible amount of traffic, including a lot from new readers. Some of these readers have decided to take us to task for not mentioning Braxton’s father, obviously having not searched our blog. It is an indication to us that these folks have decided to attack first and not ask questions later.
Expect delays in answers or approving of moderated comments. I have been sitting behind this computer since 8AM. I need to do some other work and will check in from time to time.
RichardM wrote:
Your questions are not answerable within the established context. To show you why, I offer a different set of questions:
Why do you think it important to do comparative evil in this thread? And why do you think that neither evil counts, as it stands, until that comparison has been established?
Comparative evil studies are important, but they won’t work here because of a tendency to smear them together and thus not see each for what it is.
You are a prime example. You cannot simply write, “…His actions were wrong. And I agree that no amount of lying would ever justify an attack on a child.” And then patiently leave it alone, taking up the other wrong on another day. No, you must rush headlong towards the other wrong, spending paragraphs on it, ending with it. AND you push it forth in the context of Braxton, submerging Braxton into it and contradicting your earlier recognition of the wrong of attacking a child for his parents’ actions.
That is why our good hosts established a context. To keep things separate, giving respectful space to the suicide of a very very young man, so that we can review the parts that outsiders may have played in it, and why, and how to keep it from happening again. Plenty to talk about, see?
sounds good. i will discuss a few salient points there later tonight. carry on!
When I heard the news of Caner’s son, my first thoughts after prayers for the family were of the exchanges between Hall and the teen. They were public record and out there. That my first thoughts were of these exchanges told me all I needed to know. They never, ever should have happened. As Dee and Deb stated in the intent of the OP, this should never happen again. It will though. When some have an axe to grind with an individual nothing matters more than winning that battle, and no one is off limits. At near 50 and a pastor not blessed with kids, I can almost say thank you God. I’ve seen the way people who attacked me have brought my wife in to the fray, but she’s an adult and can handle it. A 15 year old? Or younger in many cases with many pastor friends of mine? That some cannot acknowledge wrong here, be quiet, and instead still offer defenses is discpicable
@ dee:
Completely fine to close the comments down for a few hours, if you need it, you know? I can only imagine how exhausting it gets after a while.
Take care of yourself, dear southern friend.
@ dee:
Okay, I will grant you that. And second your feelings about Twitter discussions!
Stay sane down there. This thread is going nuts and I think I’ll be bowing out now.
New Readers:
1. We have written extensively on all issues surrounding Caner. Google or search it so further comments that say we are ignoring that are false. In fact, I would suspect that TWW has done more than some of our critics.
2. The issue for debate is: Should an adult go after the minor child of a man he is criticizing. This is a debate surrounding adult to minor communications. If you read our blog, you will quickly see that we have no trouble in in an adult critiquing another adult.
3. We did NOT say this Twitter caused the suicide. We asked a question. Could this have contributed to the suicide? In the end, the answer to that question may not be found or the family or investigators may uncover some answers. If an answer is found, we will post it.
4. We included a few websites that were out yesterday when we posted so that our readers could see what is being said. If you look at our history, we always do this. As of today, many more people are picking up on the story. Please feel free to leave links in your comments.
@ Patrice:
Dee … To echo the sentiment from Patrice, self-care.
Umm, I do believe that we are allowed to have spaghetti twice in one day. If necessary. Carb loading? Necessary for moderation, but not necessarily in moderation. Well, not at this time. Just sayin’ …
Patrice wrote:
I agree…..I wrote on my blog about it this morning and most of my readers do not know the story, and my responses have been, well for lack of a better word….wild….
dee wrote:
Well, this is going from bad to worse. Look where it got King Saul.
Nancy wrote:
Being PK, that’s for sure! I read somewhere that Braxton went along with his dad sometimes, sometimes giving his own spiel. If so, I don’t suppose that helped, but yeah, teens aren’t usually much impressed by their parents’ specialness. lol
Bee:
You really had to go and try to make a point that what Hall and the others did was not illegal?
This is not a post about legal technicalities.
I understand that Hall claims to be a pastor – a shepherd of people.
His exchanges with Braxton Caner (laying aside for the sake of discussion that following at 15 year old’s Twitter account) have no pastoral care in them.
Why would anyone sit under this person as a pastor?
I am sure Hall’s followers admire Hall’s “truth telling” convictions.
First, it appears that his skills in those areas are vastly overrated.
But more importantly, a pastor cares for people. He has compassion on people. He sees errant people, and he uses truth, caring and skill to bring them back to the fold.
Look at Jesus. The one whom we follow. Jesus’ words were redemptive. Jesus knew how to minister to the sick and hurting.
The only really harsh words that Jesus spoke directly to people were spoken to religious people who refused to acknowledge who he was, and who made religious rules and technical matters more important than caring for other people.
It is abundantly clear that Hall does not have good pastoral skills.
I am glad that he has seen his error and that he has apologized.
But his lack of pastoral skill is unbelievable.
Res Ipsa Loquitor.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
It so happens that I have a small amount of cheese and lemon sauce, which goes very well with spaghetti, left over from yesterday. And this was a particularly good one. I could post (or “mail”) it over.
I hope this is helpful.
Gary Cheek:
Thank you for sharing the information and your thoughts.
God bless.
Peter Lumpkins:
Thanks for posting your thoughts on this blog.
It is good to see bloggers of different stripes come together on important matters.
I was not following the posts on your blog that also addressed this.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
At least now we know what’s wrong with those guys!
Paging…paging…paging a harpist or flautist to go over to Pen and Pulpit and soothe the savage breasts with shepherd’s tunes.
Anyone?
Anonymous wrote:
Just like that local law firm that got disbarred for shady business practices a year or two ago. (Specifically, an OSHA compliance extortion racket against small businesses who couldn’t afford defense lawyers.) Their defense when they got caught? “EVERYTHING WE DID WAS LEGAL!”
Or refusing to heal on Shabbat, tithing mint and cumin, or what the meaning of “is” is.
Patrice wrote:
Would “The World’s Smallest Violin” do?
Nicholas wrote:
The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648.
It is now 2014, and some Reformers STILL haven’t gotten the news.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL.
Dee and Deb,
Agree totally that you need to take care of yourselves. Just want to say again how much I appreciate the tremendous amount of energy and time you devote to this work.
Disagree !!! about the lemon with spaghetti. High quality dark chocolate in therapeutic quantities would be much better.
I think this thread hit a nerve like the Driscoll rant because it exposes in such stark terms what these “men” are all about. Same with the Grant Layman admission at trial. It’s becoming harder and harder to justify the unjustifiable and hide the hypocrisy.
Marsha wrote:
Let’s make that “adult men who call themselves ‘pastors'(?)”
Wow, what a tragic situation this is. My heart goes out to Braxton’s family and friends, and all those here who have had an up-close encounter with suicide and depression.
It’s actually very easy to see how this encounter may have put another heavy stone on his already-too-great burden. I can imagine a young teenager, no longer a boy but not yet a man, feeling all alone as a huge world and its enormous expectations unfurl before him. Imagine being contacted by a grown man, being singled out and called immoral because of the issues that he has with your father. Realizing that this vile behavior will never stop, that you are seen as fair game, that people are and will always be waiting for you to make a mistake and prove your badness. That almost sounds like to much for me to bear as a grown woman, let alone a kid who hasn’t even begun to taste life yet.
Please don’t forget to pray for Braxton’s family, that they can have a little peace and comfort as they grieve. Let them know that Braxton is sitting with his Lord Jesus Christ, who promised to wipe every tear from his face for all time.
Bridget wrote:
Yes!
Nancy wrote:
Both my parents are ministers. It’s developmentally normal for people in their teens to start to differentiate themselves from their parents. Being in a situation where people constantly see you as an extension of your parents rather than as a person complicates that process, sometimes in really ugly ways. So does having to seek pastoral care from people who have a much more complex relationship with you than they have with the rest of their parishioners.
When I was going through what, in retrospect, was my first bout of depression in my teens, exacerbated by feeling on display all the time, I didn’t decide to stay alive because of my parents’ specialness. Instead, I stuck around because I was afraid that if I either sought help *or* killed myself, it would reflect badly on my parents, and they might lose their jobs. That kind of pressure is life-sucking.
I stayed alive. But it took moving away and getting some distance from my parents’ congregation to feel like I could actually ask for the kind of help that would eventually help me be *glad* to be alive.
I’m glad now that I stuck it out. But there were several years that were really hard for me, and my family was not under as bright a spotlight on me as the Caners.
This story has hit the Christian Post, though the headline inaccurately suggests that Hall has spoken recently on these matters: http://www.christianpost.com/news/after-braxton-caners-suicide-baptist-preacher-says-he-regrets-twitter-battle-with-teenager-124130/
Texas Lawman
I am not posting your comment. You are directing this towards the Caners, your comment is passive aggressive, I have no proof of what you are saying and you are posting from Jacksonville, Florida.
@ Nicholas:
The supporters of Hall are not happy with the entire article.They think it is negative towards Hall.
Gram3 wrote:
No, no, no, no, no. CHEESE AND LEMON SAUCE with spaghetti. The point is that the lemon acts as a seasoning – along with the added salt, which I didn’t mention specifically but which must obviously be present – to bring out the flavour of the cheese. Which should be a mature cheddar.
Nobody eats “lemon with spaghetti”. You see, that’s just the sort of misquote that brings the Kingdom into disrepute, delays the return of Jesus and leads to global warming.
I just read the article.
You think it reflects negatively toward Hall? No kidding.
It simply recounts that lack of understanding social boundaries that most people figure out before they leave high school. And it points out the lack of pastoral care.
The article is a textbook case of damming by just telling the facts.
There is hardly any opinion in the article. Just a retelling of the facts. That’s what makes it so powerful.
I am sure Hall and his supporters don’t like the simple retelling of the facts. Because when they look at it that way, it shows how creepy and sad Hall’s behavior was.
Nobody likes that to be put on display.
Over at Wade Burleson’s blog
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/08/the-folly-of-demanding-repentance.html?utm_content=bufferc4056&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
there is a comment which links to the blog “A Squirrel in Babylon” where it identifies the squirrel as Gene Clyatt, one of the men who tweeted with Braxton.
The post says:
The Squirrel said…
I have been guilty of this.
I repent.
Squirrel
Tue Aug 05, 08:41:00 PM 2014
I’m not sure what to make of this. If it is for real, why does he sign “Squirrel”. Maybe someone else posted it.
@ Hard to find the words…:
I noticed that too. He used to post on Calvinist pastor blog, SBC Voices, quite a bit. I wish he had been specific if he was referring to the issue being discussed here, if it was him.
Just posted this pair of tweets to Mr. Hall. I wonder if he’ll respond.
@ Bee:
The Deebs have done a reasonable job of pointing out the various lies and falsehoods by Ergun Caner. They have not refused to do so. And, as one who has had a comment spiked on this string, I would point out that the limit here is specific and has to do with whether one is talking about the abuse of targeting a person’s child, not whether the person (father in this case) is guilty, innocent, or otherwise, of anything. And they have friends and allies who regularly cover the Caner story.
Bridget wrote:
How about “schoolyard bullies in adult bodies”?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Dogs and cats, living together. MASS HYSTERIA
By the way, do you know what Siyah Yarak means? It is Braxton’s twitter handle that you posted an image of. Thanks.
Jacksonville lawmaker
You do not seem understand what I am saying. It could be my fault.
Could you please send me some links that prove what you say? I am not talking about the law or state, I am talking about you claims of what occurred.n.
f you note in this post, I have backed up everything that I have said with links. Exact quotes, etc. You need to do the same thing.
One thing of which you can be sure. TWW will report the resolution of this situation if there ever is one.
This subject has brought John Carpenter out of the woodwork again. He’s commenting over at this FBCJAX Watchdog post under the handle “yeoberry”: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2014/08/i-expect-better-from-fox-news-reporter.html
The link back to his website confirms his identity. He’s making the exact same comments regarding Mark Driscoll’s children that some have made further up on this thread.
@ Arce:
There is a reason that I am hesitant to post the form of suicide. We need to have the medical examiners report and also to whom the purported instrument(s) belonged. in other words, I need links, just like we linked to things in the post.Knowing how things go in the MEs office, the final report will not be released until blood fox, etc. have been completer. It can take 4-6 weeks for such reports. Now, if a final report has been made, please post the link.
Also, thank you for understanding. You were around a long time ago, when I wrote a certain limerick. In fact, i still remember your comment. Do you?
Nicholas wrote:
he flamed us a couple of days ago. He is in deep moderation….
@ Tim:
I doubt it.
Dee, *very* much in agreement w/Patrice about taking a break and closing comments for a while. If you’ve been in front of the screen since 8:00 a.m., I think you’ve been Superwoman.
But even Superwoman needs some down time and a good night’s sleep, you know…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Can you back that up with Scripture? Did I say ‘Scripture’? I meant ‘a recipe’ 🙂
Rachel wrote:
I’m so glad you made that move that proved to be so beneficial and that you’re with us today! I have always thought that a move away from parents helps young people to mature and face life’s challenges along with developing skills to make their own decisions and choices.
Thanks for sharing that.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Look, Nick, if Wayne Grudem and buds can selectively mistranslate the Bible for their own purposes, then I have the authority to do likewise with your words,a fortiori. I also reject your emphatic claim which you did not make that lemons with spaghetti cures Irritable Personality Disorder. I was merely trying to correct your theology of comfort foods. That is all. Heretic. Next thing you know, people will be saying that Fritos should be downed with Coke. That’s the slippery slope you are on, my friend.
It is as if Fred Phelps himself has passed on the torch; these people are about one step away from picketing funerals. You will know them by their fruits.
Patrice wrote:
I don’t believe that for a second. I believe, given the hysteria and baselessness of your jihad against Marky Mark, if one of you encountered one of Marky Mark’s kids doing something you deemed inappropriate on-line, you’d do exactly as Hall did, or worse. I believe you’d be holding the kid up as an example of how bad a parent he is and thus proof that your criticisms were true all along. Etc.
I think the main issue for Hall’s post is “tagging” BC’s twitter handle. But I don’t see it as bullying.
To make a “case” for why it might have made sense—but could have been done without the “tagging”…
Hall has apparently made it his mission to take down what he sees as a false teacher and a liar. One of the cases one can possibly make to add evidence to a claim of a false teacher is to point out blatant immorality by the children of a church “leader”. Which, is a disqualifier biblically. According to Hall, the only reason he became aware of BC’s twitter is because EC’s twitter feed responded to BC’s which, since Hall is apparently obsessed with EC, he clicked on it which showed him the content he found objectionable.
His then public statement where he tagged BC comes across as a “and the hits keep coming with this EC guy, first he is a liar, and now it is clear his house isn’t in order.” Which from Hall’s perspective, due to EC speaking at youth events specifically, this is a big problem.
Clearly he could have not tagged BC in the original post, but nothing is private on twitter like it can be on FB. And he could make the argument of, “Here is more evidence supporting my claims against EC by directing you to view this public profile”
The actual direct conversation was initiated by BC(at least according to the twitter pics in this post) to which Hall responded with one arguably antagonistic question concerning whether or not BC spoke Arabic at home. Which, due to EC’s regular claims that this is true, it kinda makes sense to say, “hey, I am actually talking to someone who can confirm or deny whether or not EC is telling tall tales”. The very next post by Hall is saying, “Wait, you’re a minor, I am stepping out of this conversation”. Which he did unfairly add the whole, “PM me for the truth about daddio”
I don’t read this interaction as Hall seeking to confront BC, but Hall unwisely tagging BC’s profile which led to the interaction initiated by BC, which Hall got out of with a stupid statement about private email.
That being said, I don’t read this as Hall trying to target BC and put him on trial, but Hall responding to being confronted by BC. Which he did back out of really quick, albeit with an unfair parting comment.
I think there is a terrible scourge of bullying(cyber and otherwise) in our culture today. Kids are subjected to absolutely horrific treatment by their peers and too often adults. I have dealt with situations where kids have actually been THREATENED by adults. Told to “go kill yourself” by adults. When we conflate this relatively benign(imo) situation with those real and direct travesties we don’t do ourselves any favors.
There are real bullies out there who are directly harming kids, I would rather focus on them instead of straining to find bullying where it is hard to make the case that there was.
@ Patrice:
Kathy Bates is awesome, a true exponent of the best in her craft. In my opinion she did her best work in the role of Dolores Claiborne in the screen adaptation (1995) of Stephen King’s novel by the same name.
Bee
This discussion is useless. I have told you that we do not go after kids. You say that you don’t believe that for a second but you offer no proof for your assertion. We have critqued Driscoll for a long time and have not until this point ever mentioned his kids (unless you can prove otherwise.) Therefore, from this point forward you must provide proof for your assertions.
Also, we do not refer to him as Marky Mark. His name is Mark Driscoll.
Jacksonville
I most certainly do. It is a male appendage and it sometimes used as a colloquial expression for how some peope are currently behaving.
Anonymous wrote:
I think you make the best argument for letting them show their hearts by their words. Interesting that the supporters take issue with the CP reporting of the timing of his apology rather than the substantive wrong he committed against Braxton.
@ roebuck:
It is written in the book of TWW, chapter Don’t Get Mad – Cook, verse 119870. Amen: thanks be to God.
@ Bee:
Bee, you are becoming ridiculous. What was the point of that post, anyway? Let’s talk about what happened, not what we believe might happen given nonexistent hypotheticals. But you will believe what you want to believe. Or whatever makes your point, whatever that might be.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Straining at Twitter gnats and swallowing sinful camels. Tithing mint and paying corban.
Do you have teenage children? Have you ever had a “pastor” interpose himself like this with your teenager? I have. Think about the implications of what you are saying.
@ Rachel:
Goodness. Thank God you got help and chose to stay alive. It sounds like being a PK in your situation was a serious problem. So glad you are better.
@ Hester: Fixed it. 🙂
Bee wrote:
I can’t imagine they’d be going after the kid personally like Hall did, I’ve never seen the least indication of that. Bee, exactly what is motivating your behavior here? What person or ideology are you trying desperately to defend?
I think Hall made this problem much bigger than it really was by how he dealt with it in the weeks following it. If he had simply said, “I didn’t intend to engage with EC’s kid, that wasn’t my intention” and then just shut up about it, it would have mostly gone away. But instead he and his supporters twisted themselves in theological pretzels to try to make a case of why not only why it was ok but that perhaps we SHOULD harass sinful kids…..In my mind, his stuff following the interaction is the problem, not the interaction itself.
Also, a general thought. At what age do we criticize a false teacher. According to reports BC participated in the EC’s ministry. Meaning, he was publicly affirming lies. If, due to his age, he is off limits, where do we draw the line.
For example, if, as a way of getting out of the fire, MD starts having his minor daughter(who he does have at times write for his blog—mostly book reviews) start publicly espousing patriarchy teachings. Do we give her a pass because she is a minor, or, do we get to say, I don’t care how old you are, if you are teaching this bologna publicly you are going to get called out!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Something like scales seems to have fallen from my eyes, and now I see! I believe! Tonight’s menu is already set, but tomorrow we will see if the proof-text is in the pudding, or sauce, as it were…
dee wrote:
Haaa, they’ve turned you into a Pastafarian !
Lydia wrote:
Also on Pyromaniacs. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is at work?
Just in case and for what it’s worth…don’t confuse the James E. White mentioned in this excellent post with another pastor/author, James Emery White. The two could not be farther apart in spirit.
roebuck wrote:
Even if there were some “pattern” of behavior of what she is claiming would help her credibility but she has provided none. I read here in the early days and not once have I seen them do what Bee is suggesting is a foregone conclusion.
@ Adam Borsay:
Adam, it was not just “calling out” which is bad enough. It was ALSO “contact me if you want to know the truth about your dad”.
THAT is trying to drive wedge between father and son. Horrible. Despicable.
Bee wrote:
Then no one here can help you and continuing in this thread can do nothing for anyone.
But I have a recommendation to send with you on your way out. Please take the time to develop rudimentary discernment, for your own protection. Not being able to tell basic truth from basic BS leaves you defenseless.
BTW, are you a relation of yeoberry who has posted that same declarative-question elsewhere?
@ Adam Borsay:
What I object to is the idea of hey kid let me tell you about your Dad. A few tweets back and forth is not the point, in my book. The attempt to get at the father through the son with no apparent regard for what that might do to the teen. Think callous. Think ruthless. Think none of Hall’s business what went on between the teen and his dad. And being some preacher does not make it right. It makes it worse.
Adam Borsay wrote:
And Braxton, who could have no independent knowledge of his father’s childhood and early adulthood since he wasn’t born yet, is endorsing lies by participating in his father’s ministry exactly how?
The answer to your second question is that we don’t. Have Dee and Deb called MD’s daughter out? No. Are people who comment here bringing her up? Just you.
This blog calls out wrongdoing and spiritual abuse by Christian leaders. Teens don’t fall in that category.
Three comments not approved.
Bee wrote:
Wow! Let us know what you think of us, though you don’t know us. FYI – most of us were appalled when we heard that Driscoll was on board with his teenage daughter starting a public blog. We thought it was a poor idea and couldn’t believe Driscoll thought this would be a good thing for his daughter.
Muff Potter wrote:
I can’t watch horror flicks because of flashback issues, but I do watch youtube clips of Bates from those flicks because she just rocks!! Silly, I know, but really, she’s amazing, and they occur to me like poems, such as here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKdANxJw4ho
🙂
@ Lydia:
I was one of the earliest readers and commenters here. I have never, ever seen TWW people attack any non-adult, nor any evidence that they would ever do so. One commenter mentioned that children may sometimes lie about abuse, and there was an immediate distancing from that here. And another pointed out that adults sometimes mis-identify a person as the one that raped them and a similar mis-identification could happen, as could a badly botched interview of a child, resulting in mistaken charges; but those are radically different than a lie by the child.
Quick to jump to the defense of children — that is TWW. Never seen hint one of any suggestion of an attack on a child.
Bee wrote:
This is baseless conjecture. It’s also a diversionary tactic to take the focus off of somebodies (Hall, et al) who have actually behaved in the despicable fashion of directly bullying a minor.
Marsha wrote:
I am not arguing that TWW would call out MD’s kids, I meant it as a general approach/thought. Sometimes bad parents use their kids as pawns to further their agenda because they know that people “pull their punches” when it comes to the kids. Like the Fred Phelps crew handing out protest placards to their kids to go to solider funerals. If a child, even unwittingly, is teaching falsehood and/or damaging theology that is influencing people, do we just ignore it because they are kids?
Adam Borsay wrote:
Don’t have to ignore it. You go to talk to their parents about what they are having their kids do. The kids have been taught to be obedient and not ask qustions, I’m sure.
dee wrote:
TO be fair, this is not the first time that Seneca has expressed “such”(ed. removal) tendencies. While I was initially confused by the complete non-sequitar of Seneca’s response, I had to remember that he is in the consistent habit of attacking other people in order to justify himself. It gets old, but it is who he is, and hopefully can be let go of at some point. Seneca, if you’re reading this, I hope you will try to pause before posting, and consider how your words will sound to those reading them before you click ‘submit’.
Adam Borsay wrote:
What does that have to do with the twitter exchange being discussed here? Did you miss the part where he tried to drive a wedge between father and son?
And I would say yes, deal with adults only. Love the child. There is something very creepy about Hall seeking out Braxton’s twitter.
I have a friend who is on instagram just because she thinks there needs to be some adults on her kids playground. She ONLY oontacts the parents when something is amiss as her kids can only follow those they know. She never contacts the kids/teens directly. But then she works with marginalized youth populations. She gets it. She knows how vulnerable they are, how they experiment, etc. She does encourage them, though. Thank God.
*
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“Driven To Tears…” [1]
hmmm…
Let us love our children while there is still ‘time’, huh?
(tears)
Sopy
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[1] Sting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiuzFNtki60
Additional pause: 16 Strings String Quartet- “Isn’t She Lovely”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFFKkL4vO6M
—
Gram3 wrote:
Gram, each & every one of your posts int his thread has been stellar.
@ Adam Borsay:
This was not about a few tweets. There was a blog post and a radio program calling out the kid as well. This thing went way beyond Twitter.
Addison wrote:
Worth repeating.
Bridget wrote:
I forgot about that. you are correct. Many thought if was a bad idea for him to do that. No one attacked the kid.
So here is the bottom line on this one: JD Hall’s actions online are so blatantly mean and downright stupid that they are impossible to defend without descending into meanness and stupidity for one’s self. This is true regardless of Braxton’s actions. Jesus said “by their fruits you shall know them” for a reason. Hall and many of those he associates with – like many fundamentalists – just don’t exhibit the spirit of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit.
Side note: Any paid pastor that spends his time trolling twitter is not only a fool, but is wasting the church’s money. You can’t begin to imagine the trouble I would get into with my employer if I engaged in this kind of skullduggery. Shouldn’t a pastor be held to a higher standard?
Bee wrote:
Bee – do you really know how this sounds? If his Dad is a legitimate target does that mean Braxton is collateral damage? Do you even care?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
mmmm, I love preserved lemon with pasta also. I vote we all send Dee and Deb some spaghetti in the mail. I’ll do a sage and burnt butter one sprinkled with gruyere. PS Do you have the ‘Changs fried noodles’ ? There is a recipe on the back where you dip them in chocolate. I was going through a really tough time once, and a friend made some, put them in a foodsafe container and mailed them to me interstate. No note or anything, just the chocolate noodles. It was a timely, welcome gift.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I REALLY want to see Bulbeck tackle this one…
Adam Borsay wrote:
How about never criticizing the kid for his/her father? If you want to critique the kid’s work, do so. If when doing so, you want to draw parallels to the father’s work for the purpose of clarifying the kid’s work, do so.
But to criticize a son/daughter, at any age, for the sins of his father is not ok, ever. And when done to a teen, it’s beyond the pall, no matter how much less it is than the “usual” kind of bullying. (Do you really want to play the “much less therefore nothing at all” card?)
Adam Borsay wrote:
Critique what the daughter writes, in a way suitable to her age. That’s respectful to all of her: to her words and to the emerging of her not-quite-yet adult self. I do not understand the difficulty here.
Do you have children?
@ dee:
Well so far he hasn’t blocked me anyway.
@ Patrice:
Wise as always. I am glad to the bones your attempt was unsuccessful & understand totally being at the point where staying alive seems like a form of self-harm. I’m formulating a response to someone over at the last thread on ‘don’t waste your…’. I feel there may be places she/he has never been in life, yet.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
This is the problem. They believe they are on a holy crusade to expose sin.That means the sin of anyone, including kids. Note the age of Hall’s kids. They are young. He has yet to experience the teen years.
Years ago, I thought I knew it all I knew how to raise kids to be”almost” perfect. I believe that God gives us teens to teach us humility. And as I have ofter said since that time, even God did not quell a rebellion for His kids and I presume He knows the best way to raise a family.
@ Tim:
I think things are pretty quiet over there. My guess he is hanging low for awhile which would be the best decision he has made in this whole mess.
roebuck wrote:
May God richly bless your repast. I re-read the recipe on the Cooking page, and I feel I should add that the Lord has since caused be to come into a place of deeper revelation. That is, the white sauce base is better done with 60g of butter and 60g of plain flour, as in a beurre blanc.
Since the Lord has miraculously provided you with scales, the same having fallen from your eyes, then weighing the butter and flour will be simple. An example if ever there was one of the Lord confirming the word with signs that follow.
What a nasty forum.
I’m going to pray for the family of the poor child because of the devastation they’ve gone through and pray for the fellows who attacked them, that they come to realize the pain they contributed to.
Muff Potter wrote:
ooh, so is Marianne Sägebrecht imo. Ref “Bagdad Cafe”, a favourite of mine.
@ Patrice:
Oh, and Adam, critiquing the daughter can be done only as an individual, in a comment thread, not as a representative of well-known blog, nor in that blog. That is far too heavy and premature for a not-yet-adult.
Why do I feel the need to couch this so carefully, Adam? Are you really that ignorant of meeting/socializing with the broad range of humanity?
Bee wrote:
Which I’m sure we all welcome. I have to say, it’s been a good summer for bees in Scotland; they’ve been much more numerous than last year. An unusually combination of mild winter + dry summer probably helped.
Bee wrote:
Hi Bee. a) And why can’t we accept commendations from those with whom we might not normally agree? “Chapter & verse” please. Oh, wait! You were meaning that as a moral insult toward me. Please forgive. Tell you what, Bee. Anytime I write a piece, you have my express permission to log on to SBC Tomorrow and give me what for. I’ll gladly engage if you think my inferences from the sources I cite might remain questionable;
b) The issue is not just legal but moral. As for me and my house, it’s morally suspect for person A to intentionally breach child B’s respect and relationship for his or her parent by offering to discuss, in private, the “real” facts of child B’s parent’s life. This is so thoroughly twisted, it’s hard to imagine how even unbelievers cannot prima facie see it’s moral repulsiveness.
With that, I am…
Peter
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
A cornucopian rhema?
It should be noted that when Hall engaged Braxton Caner on twitter, Hall’s friends Maricle (Rhology), Gene Clyatt, Fred Butler, and “Wolf’s Bane” all piled on then as well: https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/484382122958790656
Bee wrote:
It’s precisely as I’ve mentioned before: Caner-haters have an excruciatingly difficult time discussing a single issue without lapsing into their first love–bashing Caner and anyone who associates with him. I honestly feel sorry for them at times…
With that, I am…
Peter
I’m sorry if I am missing the point. Was there a suicide note or some evidence that linked his suicide to the online attacks or is this thread just more salacious gossip?
THC wrote:
Yep, just more salaious gossip. You win with your deeply intellectual riposte. Good night.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Ummm. Nick. Did you ever consider maybe getting an..ummm…evaluation?
Haitch wrote:
I as well.
I’ve been thinking about how, to Hall and Assoc., many words seem to have different meanings than commonly accepted. It’s not bullying– its “engaging”. It’s not attacking– it’s “love”.
THC wrote:
Let me tell you a true story. My dad yelled at the cat. The cat then went out and got run over. My dad didn’t make the cat run across the street, nor was he driving the car. But he regretted this to his dying day, over 40 years later. I can only hope that Mr Hall will have some similar pangs of conscience.
@ peter lumpkins:
As you know, our blog is often criticized because we have an extremely open comment policy. Far more than many blogs. Dustin Germain wrote a post about us calling us the Planned Parenthood of the blogosphere back in May. He used words like cesspool, etc. In other words, they condemned our openness.
We rarely restrict comments. We did it this time for a reason that appears obvious to us. One post. Just one. We said do not bring up the Ergun Caner thing. We are accused of covering up. Can you imagine? Us? Covering up?
Oh yeah, We are not allowed to reach across the aisle. As you know, the two of us disagree on some issues (she says as she sips on a small glass of wine 🙂 ). However, we have some agreements. Apparently we are not allowed to talk with you because that is evil.
You know that we are big on child abuse. One could say that is the theme we hammer home the most on this blog. You and I agree on this matter. I am grateful for the resolution that you bought to the SBC. I believe that resolution has been responsible for some recent changes.
When it becomes impossible for Christians to work together on mutually shared endeavors, then we have truly lost it. Like it or not, we will all be together in heaven and I, for one, look forward to all of our differences becoming lost as we glory in the love of our Father.
@ Adam Borsay:
There have been cases where kids picked up and ran with what their parent started. The Botkin sisters come to mind. They’ve done tons of their own writing for years – in fact I think they’ve mostly eclipsed their dad in the public eye for the most part. But the difference is, the Botkin sisters are in their 20s.
@ Nicholas:
That is the point that I have been trying to make. This is far more than a couple of Tweets.
Adam, first of all, Braxton was not called out for theological error. Second, if I want to address theological error on my own website or in comments on a discussion forum about theology, I will do it without cyberstalking teens to find some expression of it and I will do so by arguing from Scripture and reason.
Third, if we look specifically at the criticisms of Braxton, I disagree with all of them. I think courtship is ridiculous and have no objection to teenage couples kissing. His girlfriend was accused of being in her underwear when it was clearly a swimsuit. I also am not convinced that the phrase used in the boy’s Twitter handle means what Hall said it meant. The second word is a fairly common last name here in this country and I am sure those folks don’t think their name is vulgar. In English, it means ready to go hunting and is used in connection with falconry. In Persian , it means power, strength, and boldness. In Turkish, it’s origin was ‘weapon’ and only now is used as slang for male genitalia (just as words in English are appropriated for that same purpose, one after the other in a series of fads). I also found a connection to online gaming. Which seems more likely, that Braxton would call himself a vulgarity or use a name that implied strength, boldness, and preparedness in playing an online warrior game? But Hall assumed the worst.
Grown men went after a young teen boy over this trivial crap! I don’t see how anyone can defend it.
My heart just breaks for this young man and his family. I remember my daughter’s teen years. I remember my own! Feelings were so easily hurt and every negative thing seemed permanent. No one needs to make things worse. I so wish I could help, that someone could but it is too late.
janis v wrote:
Agreed.
dee wrote:
On a more serious note, and one on which we’re probably agreed at the end of the day, I don’t think it does mean the sin of anyone. It means the sin of everyone else. I’m speaking less about JD Hall and friends, about whom I don’t know any more than I’ve read here *, than about the general upsurge of “resurgent Reformed” legalism.
By way of clarification, consider the parable of the wheat and tares. There are many good brothers and sisters in the field of reformed doctrine – people, in other words, who define themselves by the Kingship of Jesus rather than by their doctrinal tribal allegiance, but whose theology is basically reformed. (The same kind of thing is true of the “charismatic field”, or of many other fields – all for another day.) Unfortunately, that same field provides appealing cover for a modern-day circumcision party, who a) believe they can be justified by law, or at least superior doctrine, and b) want to define the law for everyone else, because that way they get to rule everyone else.
* For all I know, the whole thing could be a wind-up, and Mr Hall may be no more a baptist preacher than FakeDriscoll is an actual motivational speaker.
To our readers:
We just found out that Braxton’s maternal grandparents live in Raleigh, the home of the Deebs. His obituary was in our local newspaper. we discovered it by accident.
We are sending them TWW’s deepest condolences. You see, Braxton’s maternal grandfather’s first name is Braxton. That tore our hearts out.
This is so, so hard.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thank you for saying it.
I want to know how to get into the “calling out” ministry. First how do you know that you are called to such ministry? Where do they offer a major in calling out, or at least an area of special interest? What are the job opportunities, and does it help if you used to be a cop? Does it pay well? What do you if you get into a Mexican standoff of calling out? Is it like a four way stop; whoever gets there first? What are the job prospects for calling out professionals if they suffer burn out? Is this career move amenable to lateral entry? Is there some quality assurance process to protect you? Besides all the other religions on the planet and besides all the other christian denominations besides ours, how do we know who else is wrong all the time and about everything? Can you get liability insurance in case of error?
On second thought, I think I will just try to get on at Walmart as a greeter.
@ Nancy:
I believe Roebuck is planning one for tomorrow evening. I look forward to hearing the results!
dee wrote:
Actually I was asking in response to another post. I dont think he did that I was speaking in general of people pretending to be navy seal etc.
Marsha wrote:
That’s a fascinating comment, Marsha. And I have to wonder: did anyone who disapproved of Braxton’s use of Turkish actually ask themselves what Braxton himself meant?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, thank you for making me laugh out loud….and the image it conjured up (no apology for that pun) of what might be going on over there….. well. 😉
dee wrote:
Perfect. @ Marsha:
Marsha, Thanks for researching that info on the twitter handle name.
When it comes to these guys, one has to check every. single. word.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
*
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Dee,
Salut,
Profitez de votre Cusine Italienne !
Bon Appétit ! 🙂
Le Sopy
__
Comique secours: Châteaux de sable, peut-être ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81OoF7x-3cc
Entracte : Dîner italien – musique de fond, chansons préférées pour l’italien, musique folklorique d’Italie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvkZWhpzmWs
;~)
—
http://tinyurl.com/p8x97l4
Check out the dates on these two tweets. This story just keeps getting sadder by the moment for kids.
get a clue
I thought your comment was fascinating. I didn’t know anything about this. I would actually like to post it. However, for the sake of this particular post, I decided not to bring anything up about Ergun. This goes both ways. Please feel free to discuss this on another post on this site. Just not on this one.
@ Adam Borsay:
“Also, a general thought. At what age do we criticize a false teacher. According to reports BC participated in the EC’s ministry. Meaning, he was publicly affirming lies. If, due to his age, he is off limits, where do we draw the line.
For example, if, as a way of getting out of the fire, MD starts having his minor daughter(who he does have at times write for his blog—mostly book reviews) start publicly espousing patriarchy teachings. Do we give her a pass because she is a minor, or, do we get to say, I don’t care how old you are, if you are teaching this bologna publicly you are going to get called out!”
++++++++++++++
oh, I don’t know… 24?? Who knows. It takes time and experience to work through something so as to be able to see its multiple sides & understand it. I think we can afford teens and young adults that time without chastising them for not having ideologically arrived, don’t you?
But why is this so desperately urgent a topic for you? Why the hyper police mode over “false teaching”?? I somehow have a mental image of you making the cross sign with your fingers while slowly backing away from anyone remotely threatening.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Adam, if a pastor/minister’s child is saying the things their parent(s) have taught them to say, the answer to your question is: NO! We do NOT target the kid. In this hypothetical, we ‘call out’ the parents. Not the child.
I really cannot fathom why this is so hard to understand. Is it because the kids are an easier target? Is it because the purity of ideology must be protected, regardless of collateral damage? I really don’t get it?
I am going to share something I’m not proud of. When I was 17 – a senior in high school – and going through my own identity crisis, a teacher that I had looked up to – who was a Christian – took it upon himself to try and correct my private life. It did not go well – it angered me in the way only a 17 yr old can get angry and my friend (a co-target) and I decided one night to egg his car. Stupid. When we got to his house, we saw him and his wife leaving and changed our plans to egg his house, which we proceeded to do. Later, when the @)(@#Y! hit the fan, we found out that his 5 year old son was there with a babysitter when we did that. That still bothers me. I think of the fear we caused that child and am ashamed. I was ashamed then.
No matter what the beef is with the adults, the children are N E V E R fair game.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You bet he is – I’m thinking Salmonian Rite…
dee wrote:
His last tweet was over a week ago, so it looks like you may be right. I am glad.
Nicholas wrote:
I think the following is a revealing quote from that twitter thread. JD Hall to Braxton:
================
Because of your age, I’ll discontinue our convo. But if you ever want to speak or seek truth about your dad, email me.
================
It is interesting because Hall acknowledges awareness of the significance of Braxton’s age with respect to engaging him publicly, but Hall then proceeds to tell him to contact Hall privately regarding the “truth about his dad.” This shows that Hall is not concerned with addressing a child about doctrine but only concerned with damaging the relationship between Braxton and his dad. There is no concern for protecting purity of doctrine. It is pure vindictiveness on its face. It is very odd behavior, indeed for a “pastor.” And shame on the others for participating. If only this would be a moment of moral clarity for these guys and their sympathizers.
@ Gram3:
I forgot to say that I would like to hear the apologists for J.D. Hall and company attempt to mitigate or excuse this behavior by a chronological adult who is employed as the “pastor” of a church.
I have a question. Would any of the people who are defending the tweets engaging a minor – calling him immoral, citing it as an example of said child’s parent ‘wrongness,’ and offering to ‘privately’ educate said child about said parent’s wrongness….would they really be able to stand tall in front of the Creator of the Universe, in front of Jesus, Himself, and defend this, citing ‘bad theology & behavior’ as justification? Because if they feel they could look Jesus in the eye and defend this, I fear for them.
Condolences to the Caner family for the loss of their son.
@ Jeannette Altes:
Why not? Because unlike them Jesus seems to have this thing about forgiving people, so no worries on their part. They can be as big as jerks as they want, and then get forgiven and go right back to who they were.
Cynicism level rising.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Albuquerque Blue, my cynicism level is rising, too. It is behavior like this that causes Christianity to be repugnant to those looking on….and to some within as well….
Bee wrote:
For me personally, it would depend in regards to Driscoll.
As Mark Driscoll has an abusive and bullying personality,
has a known history of bullying people he knows, and that he verbally abuses males who don’t conform to his very narrow idea of masculinity,
If then, in several years, I began seeing stories of his teen aged sons getting repeatedly in scrapes with the law over fighting or robbery or what have you, I would wonder if Driscoll’s views on hyper- masculinity played a role in their misbehavior.
Should that scenario occur, I do not visualize myself upbraiding either young man on social media over it, however.
As it stands right now, given Driscoll’s sexist views on women, I am especially concerned for his two daughters (I recently saw a photo of Driscoll posing with his wife and kids on some other site, and he had two daughters with him).
If Driscoll’s daughters buy into dad’s restrictive views on women, they will likely grow up to be very codependent and probably marry and date abusive men.
With me here, I don’t know if that is so much Driscoll personally as it is his views, which are pretty similar to the gender complementarian swill marketed by John Piper, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches, Owen what’s- his- name of the CBMW, and many other Neo Calvinist or Baptist bloggers and other groups.
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, Where did Squirrel/Clyatt post on Pyro? I couldn’t find it.
@ dee:
This and the comparison to 4chan still crack me up. If these guys want to see a cesspool, all they have to do is mosey over to some men’s rights sites and they will get the eyeful of their lives. It’ll make Arabic words for genitalia look like child’s play.
This JD Hall mentioned in one or two tweets, or blog posts, something about Braxton’s “greatly immoral behavior.”
The only thing I saw cited was that the boy may have used some saucy language in a tweet or two; posted a photo of himself kissing his girlfriend; and his Twitter name was Arabic slang for a certain male body part.
All of that sounds pretty tame and mild to me, very “PG” to “PG 13-ish”. Is there something I’m missing?
If J D Hall and crew think that a teen boy kissing his teen girlfriend and/or posting a photo of it on Twitter as his profile photo is the “height of immorality,” they are very naive types and sound like pearl-clutching granny ladies who get the vapors over inconsequential things like women who show a bare ankle in a skirt that doesn’t touch the floor.
Assuming J D Hall reads the Bible, when he gets to the parts about the brother raping his sister Tamar, or the mentioning of people having sex with animals needing to be put to death, does he blush and cover his eyes, or just pretend such things aren’t in the Bible?
There are far more salacious things in life than a teen kid who uses a cuss word here or there or who kisses his girlfriend.
On a last note, I’m seeing a lot of Ergun Caner critics on other blogs conflating the two situations, and it doesn’t make sense to me.
I get that they don’t like E. Caner or agree with him or his past actions, but they don’t seem to understand that disapproving of the father doesn’t excuse or justify hounding the guy’s teen son on social media.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
And if they’re Calvinist (i.e. “Reformed(TM)”), they were forgiven for EVERYTHING in advance, before the Foundation of the World. Get-out-of-Hell-Free Card signed by God Himself for His Speshul Pets. And besides, nothing (including Braxton’s suicide) is their fault! Everything (including Braxton’s suicide) Was & Is PREDESTINED! “In’shal’lah…”
Daisy wrote:
That’s a 15-year-old for ya.
As for his Twitter handle, well when you’re that age and male, anything like that is hilarious.
Daisy wrote:
Not “gender complementarian”, Daisy.
MALE SUPREMACIST.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
*
Jeanette, NOBODY stands tall in front of God. Nobody
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Oh my yes. This story has gotten on over to the atheist blogosphere. And the reaction isn’t just shock sadness and grief. It’s acceptance that this is what Christians do, this is who they are or at least pretty substantial and influential groups of Christians are. And it hurts those Christians who aren’t involved in this bullying in so many ways with splashback and association, and I imagine that those who doubt don’t find this helpful.
dee wrote:
My heart breaks for them.
dee wrote:
That’s more true than you may realize.
J D Hall has some groupies who call themselves (I may not spell this right) “Pulpiteers.”
I think it’s discussed on Julie Anne’s site here:
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/08/06/who-is-rhology-what-is-a-pulpiteer-how-do-they-function/
Where she and/or someone else pasted in text from a J D Hall blog page (which may have been deleted but is cached) where he -or one of his fans- explain their purpose.
This was posted by a person named Kay on Julie Anne’s blog:
Posted by Kay
From the wayback machine – PulpitandPen.org as recently as July 2, 2014
In their own words…
THE PULPITEERS
The Pulpiteers are a unique group of rabble rousers that use their social media to get out the Truth about evangelicalism’s need for Reformation.
They are a Gospel-centered army, using their social media to advance the cause.
They follow the Pulpit & Pen blog, subscribe to the podcast, and receive email alerts about how they can be activated at a moment’s notice to spread time-sensitive information in their spheres of influence.
To become a Pulpiteer, click on the link “Become a Pulpiteer” on the homepage and you’ll start receiving updates.
—————-/end quote
I’m not completely against Christians wanting to use social media to spread the Gospel, or to respectfully debate with atheists, discuss theology with each other, or whatever, but in light of J. D. Hall’s actions in using Twitter to pressure a 15 year old boy (and over animosity towards the boy’s father), their “pulpiteer” manifesto has creepy overtones.
@ Hard to find the words…:
That would have been at least a couple of years ago, IIRC. A lot of personal water under the bridge since then, but I used to read there regularly.
get a clue
Could you do me favor? Would you put all the information you have sent in the comments and send it to me in an email? f you do, I will do some reading next week. I found the information quite interesting and realize I need to educate myself.
Daisy wrote:
Great comment.
dee wrote:
To our readers:
We just found out that Braxton’s maternal grandparents live in Raleigh, the home of the Deebs. His obituary was in our local newspaper. we discovered it by accident.
We are sending them TWW’s deepest condolences. You see, Braxton’s maternal grandfather’s first name is Braxton. That tore our hearts out.
This is so, so hard.
Dee, my heart breaks for them with you.This whole thing is wretched, a boy is dead, and his family is suffering, and will never get over their loss. I am heartsick, praying my feeble prayers with what little faith I have left, crying too.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Christians do in fact do this sort of thing, and worse. Of course, other religions have some folks who do mess also. And non-religious people have been known a time or two to do bad stuff. Which leads to a great philosophical and theological observation. Something is wrong with humanity. And hanging around the church house or court house or school house does not seem to have solved it.
@ Nancy:
Absolutely. I see no difference in the actions and practice of any religion or non religion that gets people to behave better overall. It behooves all of us to check our moral and ethical stances constantly, to study multiple approaches and beliefs with other humans. Heck, just talk to each other without tempers and preconceptions up.
@ Gail:
It's painful to even imagine what this family is going through in the aftermath of such a terrible tragedy.
Seneca Griggs wrote:
When I finally see God Himself, I will take a running leap into His arms. So there’s that…
Beakerj wrote:
Glad to be useful although not always happy that I’m still here. But am better, now at walking the line.
Re some people not having been many places, yah seems like it to me too. And that’s ok, but best not to get into arguments about how to travel the Himalayas after only looking at googlemap. lol
Patrice wrote:
Me, too!
I can understand how teen-agers lack the developmental skills and emotional maturity to send out all kind of nonsense on twitter. That is why they need parents supervising this activity to help them avoid serious and long-term far-reaching negative consequences. We can’t always monitor them twenty-four-seven, but can at least guide them in the responsible use of electronic communication. Kind of like manners for Tweeters.
I think it is too late for 30 year-old+ men who have an agenda to incorporate these basic rules in their own electronic communication. Those who send out ill-mannered messages and shocking techniques fall more in line with Howard Stern! That they are enticing teenagers into conversations are signs of a preditor. Trying to divide and conquer families, friends, fellow-believers over doctrine in small tweets reduces God’s word into meaningless sound bites. Maybe there needs to be an age requirement to use this method of communication. By the age of 26 it’s time to put away your toy and communicate like an adult! Ann
Patrice wrote:
Yes. Absolutely. I am also glad you are still here as your comments to me have been very helpful. However, I also understand the tightrope walk of not always being pleased to still be here. The very first thing that I thought when I woke up after my attempt was, “S***! I’m still here.” Then began a journey of trying to make being here have value.
I have a friend whose 21 year old twin son took his life because of fundamentalist religious pressures from a church he got involved with. And he couldn’t take the cognitive dissonance between the love he had for God and the judgments this church put on him about his father (who is gay) and his own questions.
It’s been ten years and they will never get over it not my friend (his mother) or his father (also a friend) or his twin brother. They are living their lives, but that young man is forever in the front of their thoughts….mine, too. My heart breaks for the Caners.
@ Deb:
I ache for them. I cannot imagine what they are suffering. I LOVE how you two have made this blog about them. So sorry for their loss of their precious boy. My heart cannot imagine what they are living. Lord have Mercy, Christ have Mercy.
Nancy wrote:
Nancy, you just nailed that one! 😉
Gram3 wrote:
Me too. I stopped several years ago. I have a bridge too!
I was looking at Gene’s facebook friends’ list and it’s a literal who’s who of Grace personalities. JD’s friends are hidden, but easy to figure out from all the posts and likes.
Incredibly sad, but not surprising given that water. It looks all nice and sparkly in the Sonshine, but it’s pretty murky below the surface.
Seneca Griggs wrote:
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
I don’t think the Psalmist shared your view Jimmy.
Daisy wrote:
Besides the obvious (Reformed = CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN!), doesn’t constant Reformation remind you of Comrade Trotsky’s Doctrine of Continuous Revolution?
Here’s that adjective “Gospelly” again.
And is The Cause so Righteous that it justifies any Evil to bring it about?
Mobilization for The Cause. Alert all Party Cadres.
“Spheres of influence”? High opinion of themselves, don’t they?
Seneca Griggs wrote:
Actually, I wasn’t referencing what will be – I was wondering if they believe they could? And beyond that, would they believe that Jesus condones/approves of this behavior? That is my main point.
@ Nancy:
Then what was the point of the cross resurrection? To be saved while continuing in evil?
@ get a clue:
Deebs, the post referenced here violates your charter for this discussion. Neither those who would hold Caner to account nor those who are defending him should be commenting along those lines. Please be consistent.
JD Hall and all the other fellows who contacted this boy through twitter in the past had no authority over him even in a spiritual sense. In fact, since all of these men probably adhere to some form of the 9 Marks system, can I assume that they believe that one’s local pastor has such authority over a teen in his church but, another pastor does not. Case in point, they won’t let you leave their church without their permission. So, if that is true and B Caner was not part of one of their congregations, where does their authority come from? Who decided that B Caner was put under the umbrella of their guidance and shepherding? I am not trying to be ugly. I actually would like to know how men who are Reformed and hold to a very strict form of church governance came to believe that B Caner was under their church umbrella for discipline? I think this is a fair question to ask.
As far as my opinion goes (which is worth very little) it seems that an obsession over E Caner must have festered to a point to where any dirt they could find on him or his household would be able to farther prove their point that E Caner was not truthful and was unfit for ministry. Sometimes in our quest for the truth (even in our being right) we can turn that noble quest into something heinous and self serving. I have no idea why this boy committed suicide. As a mother of one boy and another on the way, I am given great pause as I think about the turmoil that boy suffered for whatever reason. I know that E Caner has many enemies, and based upon what I have read, he doesn’t seem that he was all that honest (to put it mildly). I know these men who have assigned his son to hell believe that they are on a crusade for TRUTH. Yet, it hurts me to think that perhaps an enemy of mine, out there, would use social media as a way to contact my son in an effort to farther his agenda in criticizing me, even if I am in the wrong. It saddens me to think that my enemies could use twitter, facebook, or a blog to pronounce anathema to my boy, to publicly assign my boy his corner in hell. All because they claim I am a deceiver. Would my enemies say that one of their dead children who tragically died at his or her own hand were in hell? Or, would they excuse it away as a lapse or a mental illness so severe he or she had no clue what he or she was doing? Would my enemies console one another as one of them were found out to be in some great sin? or would they take to social media in order to call out one another? The way I see it, there is lots of covering up and excusing when the vocally reformed find their way into a tight spot. The way I see it, the Reformed men who call themselves Truly Reformed or the YRR publicly go after those not affiliated with them but, when one of their own has his own sins made known, well then it’s time to go to them “privately.” Of course since they aren’t using social media to call out their own in sin, who knows what is really said in private, if anything. Lord have mercy on us all. I find myself so angry at times with the YRR, 9 Marks crowd. I get so angry at their callousness but, as I type I wonder would I truly be hurting for them if their son or daughter died in a way that was either through self infliction or in a way that exposed them to be something other than the parents thought? Or would I take to social media to say “see what happens when you act legalistic?” Immediately calling blame out on those poor suffering parents. I pray to God that I would have compassion. The cycle of blame and accusation doesn’t seem to point anyone to Christ. Not really. Everyone’s mind is already made up anyway when it comes to internet attacks. It’s just a bunch of internet voices screaming over each other day in and day out. Poor E Caner. Lord have mercy on you and your family. Please Lord come quickly.
@ Haitch: Oh yes – Sägebricht is an absolutely marvelous actress!
Wow. JD Hall and his cronies are under some serious, serious, serious delusions.
And as for what commandment did he break in attacking this 15-year-old? How about “love your neighbor as yourself?”
Daisy wrote:
#Pulpiteers are like JD Hall’s minions. Not only do they follow him, he uses them in ways that betray the fact that he loves control, and loves to pressure and manipulate people to do what he wants. I had to look quite a ways back in JD’s twitter feed to find these, back to the month of May, where he threatens to unleash his Pulpiteers on people:
https://twitter.com/PulpitAndPen/status/448242586684502016
There’s another one that I can not find since the Twitter history only goes back to March 11th, but around the same time he threatened to have his Pulpiteers phone a person at their private phone number and harass him until he repented of something. I wish I could find that one, it was really “out there”. It would be around February-March of this year if anyone knows how to search earlier Twitter history.
The point is, he uses his minions, I mean, Pulpiteers, to do the work of the Holy Spirit, to force repentance upon people by harassing them. It’s creepy and it’s wrong.
Arce wrote:
Oh, I am trying so hard to be consistent. We are up to over 506 comments allowed and a bunch not allowed. I had already written to “get a clue” and explained why I could not approve her comments. She responded in a gracious fashion. She then sent me some information that was to remain “behind the scenes.”
So, on my last legs, eyes crossed, I “trashed” the comments in our dashboard. Instead, I guess I hit the “approve” comments. Thankfully, I saw you comment before hitting the sack. Chalk it up to a very long day. We have never had this many comments, emails and hang up calls on our “Wartburg Watch” line.
Feleina Rain wrote:
I actually saw that one and considered putting it in the post. I decided it would get us off track. But I can vouch for that. I know who he was going to do it to.
Melody wrote:
Wow … I didn’t think that Dee would allow anyone in this thread to present such a lucid description of Ergun Caner’s behavior.
@ dee:
Good night, Dee !
notyourtypical wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. The point I am making is God is interested in the heart. Kissing is not immoral in itself. Some of the behaviors displayed on the twitter feed may have shown questionable judgment, but I don’t see Jesus telling prostitutes to stop dressing a certain way. he always went for the heart in a loving way- think woman at the well. he wasn’t rude or a bully about it. He didn’t shout the rich guy down for walking away sad because he had great riches. Jesus knows how to present truth and let people go. people are at different places, and not one of us has the right to play Holy Spirit. I think there are Biblical principles to back that up. The church certainly IS to judge those inside. That does not mean we go around censoring teens’ twitter feeds. From what I’m seeing, no one went to a parent first. There was no respect shown. And in any case, this kid wouldn’t have been talked to in this way if he’d been some unknown and unrelated random teen. the point is, there’s a time to judge, especially those in leadership positions (“those who sin rebuke in the presence of all so that the rest may fear”) and a time to mind one’s own business. this could biblically be called “meddling”. Not the way to suffer.
@ RichardM:
I don’t. It was my mistake and I explained it here.
dee wrote:
I have a suggestion. You try managing this many comments,etc along with people who are very passionate and see if you don’t push the wrong buttons.
@ Bridget:
This is one TWW friend who gets it. And off to bed I go after a record day at TWW.
510 comments. All have been read by me. This is a record. Good night, TWW. Good night!
While what I said does indeed cut both ways, and many others besides myself here would agree with it in reference to what you just said, this is really not the time. The point I was making was in reference to the hypocrisy of some who demand repentance. RichardM wrote:
@ dee:
Make that 510 approved. And a bunch more not approved. What a day!
Praying for the Caner family. Thanks for writing this, Dee. Please delete anything I’ve commented that isn’t helpful or clear. I trust your judgment on this. Hope you sleep well.
Feleina Rain wrote:
Try that on me and I’d see how I could return the favor:
1) The cops.
2) AT&T.
3) If they’re calling from out-of-state, the Feds.
4) Lawyer up.
I have to admit this episode is really beginning to bother me. I dont know anyone personally involved and we only get glimpses in to what lead up to this tragedy. I have seen such awful behavior from this group of people. They play to the crowd just like Dr. Caner did, dont tell me they dont, their presuppositional hat tricks which are only word games. You cant know anything unless you have an infallible Agent or some such nonsense like that. I could go into the refutations but why bother their world view is impervious to anything until reality breaks in.
Being a PK must be really hard at times, my father was as far from a evangelical as one could be and he had some real issues but I am beginning to understand just how blessed I was to have the parents I did. Sad to say I was not the son they deserved. I just did not make enough money to help more, I could not even afford to have my mother die at home.
Fundystam wrote off a comment by Dee.
“TO be fair, this is not the first time that Seneca has expressed sociopathic tendencies” Then he goes on to critize my commenting.
Let me get this straight, he criticizes my comments after calling me sociopathic.
Ain’t that rich Dee.
@ Ann: Love your comment!
dee wrote:
You have done a yeoman's work! Hope you got some restful sleep.
@ Lydia:
Think about what I said. Of religion, law or education which do you think “saves” people if we have lots of all and still have what we have in human behavior. Do you see anywhere in scripture or in reality anything that looks like “hang out at the church house and thou shalt be saved?” But we have a lot of folks who seem to be thinking that way, judging from their behavior. What does TWW do more than protest against the actions of some churchified people and some of their egregious behavior? Somebody I think said that going to church does not make you a christian any more than going to the garage makes you a car. This is my point–not to downplay the limited effects of law and education at the same time.
Dee – I think you were a little hard on James White, though that said the last thing I would want to do is add to the hassle you have had on this thread already. He admonished all sides to stop the theological arguing in such tragic circumstances. I took a quick look at his blog and thought his comment overall about right. Incidentally it took me about 7 seconds to find your earlier critique of Caner.
I couldn’t think of anything much worse than point-scoring with this tragedy as the background, including atheists, but it is beyond me to understand the JD Halls & Co of this world. A boy commits suicide and you (i.e. people) argue about the definition of ‘child’ and when exactly someone passes into adulthood. This is what a friend of mine used to call the ‘hypnotic, pharisaical, hypocritical, demonic spirit of religion’. Any expression of Christianity can get infected with it. There is a time and a season to argue for correct doctrine and behaviour (i.e. discernment), and I am all for it, but there is also a time to shut up and mourn or allow others to mourn. To actually weep with those who weep rather than discuss the Greek grammar of the verse.
Deebs, I am thankful for all of your hard work and faithfulness to the truth and this cause. I am thankful that Patrice is still here. After all the horrible muck I went through at my former Reformed church, I found out that one of the elders had privately contacted my 18 year old, severely psychiatrically disabled son, to offer to take him to church with him. When I learned this, I was horrified that this was the beginning of a wedge being placed between my son and myself, his only advocate. I believe what was done to precious Braxton was intentional and meant to harm his father. These men are monsters. To the Caners, I share in whatever measure I am able, the grief of your loss. May the Lord of peace be with you.
@ Melody:
There is nothing to delete.The only thing we asked was not further comments about Caner’s father in this post alone. Thankfully, I think most people understand.
brian wrote:
But you loved them and they loved you. As a mother, let me reassure you of that. Moms understand the difficulties of their children and never stop loving them in spite of rocky times. In fact, most others pray that they will never be a burden to their kids. Stop beating yourself up. She understood.
Ken wrote:
Actually, I do not mind your comment to me. This is all about discussions between peers- adults.
You have read here for awhile. You know that we allow hard comments directed towards us. We allow ourselves to be called names. We can take it. And that’s my point. My husband often says to me that I know who I am. Why is that? I am an adult and have thought about things for a long time. My ego is not tied up in people liking me or disliking me.
It is different for a teenager who is trying to figure out who he is. Day to day pressures are enough in our society. We adults should not put them on the same playing field as adults. Most adults know better but not men who have an agenda which totally overrules any sense of love, understanding or decorum.
So back to the critique. James White did not repudiate the “pulpiteers” (do they realize that this remind people of Micky Mouse which, come to think of it, is an apt description of their actions) when this occurred. It is my understanding that he is closely associated with them.
Read this sentence again:
“I have already seen some using this event as a pretext for criticism—not of Ergun Caner, but of those who have sought honesty and integrity in his life. This needs to stop, immediately.”
This man, knowing of the suicide, again goes after Caner in his statement, seeking to quell the critique. It was a few of these men who engaged the boy. It was a poor statement since that critique was not because they went after the father but after the son. Secondly, I will say this. These men not only went after Caner but one said he wasn’t saved. That is not seeking honesty. It is taking on the role of the Almighty.
And his statement “this has to stop immediately” is disingenuous. It sounds as if he has something he wants covered up. So, I stand by my critique. Also, make sure you understand that this is not James Emery White. I may need to do a post on that at some point. There is quite a difference.
Janet Varin wrote:
Any group of men who do this sort of thing are despicable or loony….or both.
So, according the JD Hall, if I am opposed to someone, I can hunt down their children and harass them. Not only is that not Christian in any sense of the word, it’s just plain evil. The fruits of JD’s belief’s are rotten to the core.
JeffT wrote:
From my reading of what they and some others are saying they think not that you just can do it, but that you should do it for the sake of the child so he can be free from his sins and because they think scripture commands everybody to continually be on the alert for heresy and bad behavior.
They seem to be saying that they are doing the will of God in doing this witch hunt and heresy hounding stuff. In my previous difficult exposure to baptist fundamentalism I came to the conclusion that some of them think that almost everything is heresy. And the list of behaviors that can be considered sin is unbelievable.
Such people are in the camp of those who accused Jesus of being a drunk and a glutton and criticized him for associating with sinners and for breaking some of their traditions.
@ Nancy:
Let me give a couple of examples lest anybody think there is any way to “work with” people who think like this. Did you know that any guest speaker at a church should be “denied the pulpit” unless he has on a white shirt? If he shows up in say light blue, you must turn him away. Did you know that you should not rent a house within easy walking distance of a public swimming pool lest your children want to go to the pool? These are specific examples which were specific situations at a specific church and which I know about first hand. There is lots more stuff that I heard, but this I saw.
@ Janet Varin:
Janet, I can relate. one thing I never expected were the “Christians” who targeted my kids because they had a problem with me not going along with certain nefarious things. That is one reason this situation hit me between the eyes. We have long discussions in our house about Christian behavior, Christian love, tolerance, justice etc. It is a tight rope to walk when well known “paid to be Christians” teach and practice something totally opposite. Sometimes they practice it behind the stage covertly. So how do we explain this to our kids that it is not of Christ without making judgments? It is a very tight rope when pre teens are very concrete/black and white thinkers.
We have been down this road of Christians seeking to win over the kids to their “side” against the parent. And they were people we knew.
Personally, I think Braxton, the teen, showed more maturity than JD Hall, the pastor adult, did on that exchange. I wish I had told him that on a tweet myself. But like many here, I think it is inappropriate to engage teens we do not know on social media. Could an exception been made to congratulate Braxton on his response because I knew about the thugs who were piling on him? I don’t know. Perhaps.
We just have no idea what words can do can to these teens. We don’t know if they hurt or were forgotten or what. We don’t know if they were just one more brick on an already weighed down back. They might not have had anything to do with it. We don’t know. All we know is they could NOT have helped. We know they were meant to embarrass and humiliate him. They were meant to turn him against his father. That is what we do know.
brian wrote:
I will second what Dee wrote, brian. I am also the mother of a grown daughter, and it is enough that my daughter loves me. Life doesn’t always work out the way we’d wish it would, and we sometimes can’t express our love the way it is best done, or in the ways needed, but that doesn’t affect the love, not a bit.
@ Patrice:
Amen to that, Patrice.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
This is one reason of a few why I’ve been heading towards agnosticism, but then, I remember the exceptions, such as my mother. My mother was a Christian and she walked the walk.
But ever since my mom died a few years ago, and I started going to other Christians for assistance/fellowship, I have seen a lot of people who claim the title of “Christian,” but who don’t even attempt to seriously follow the teachings of Christ. There are some who do, but they don’t seem to be in the majority.
I guess some people take their commitment to Christ far more serious than others.
Seneca Griggs wrote:
After they’re “saved” they do.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Robin wrote:
Excellent points.
sad observer wrote:
You are not kidding.
I looked at FBC Jax Watchdog’s comment box under his most recent Caner post, and there are a couple of major wack-a-doodles still trying to dig up dirt on Braxton Caner, saying all of this is Ergun Caner’s fault, and that teens should not have public Twitter pages.
(The reasoning for that being -according to that particular Hall defender- if you’re a parent and don’t want your son harassed online, don’t permit him to have a Twitter page until he’s 18 years of age).
It’s shocking how their dislike of the father keeps them going on about the son and trying to justify J D Hall’s actions.
Feleina Rain wrote:
😯 That is unreal. They sound like a Christianized version of the mafia.
dee wrote:
I don’t doubt you can take it, but you shouldn’t have to. Perhaps I am old fashioned or just getting old, but I still think a certain amount of chivalry is in order, showing respect but without being patronising. Thin line, I know. There are ways if you like how not to talk to a lady, even a Mrs Thatcher who was more than capable of holding her own most of the time. (Having recently read her autobiography, I was struck at how sensitive a person she often was underneath, despite the Iron Lady exterior and the image she projected.)
I understand the James White here is of Alpha and Omega fame, and he didn’t to me seem to be wanting anything covered up. Unless I have lost the plot, he simply wants the arguing over Caner’s past – and he has been a vocal critic of Caner and his dodgy testimony – to cease at a time like this as being inappropriate, applicable to both sides in this issue.
notyourtypical wrote:
In a way, I agree with some of what you’re saying here, but it seems a little out of bounds for an adult to contact a teenager he does not know to criticize him or his behavior and with the motivation being to use the kid to get to the father. The motivation and spirit behind J D Hall’s actions towards the boy (and the actions themselves) is one thing I am questioning.
If he was that concerned with the boy’s tweets or actions, why didn’t he contact the parents about it?
IMO it’s kind of over-stepping bounds, in the same way the gender complementarians have gone beyond “wives submit to your husbands” to insist that all women (even middle aged never married ones like me) are supposed to have a “male covering,” such as a male preacher, as my “head” or “covering.” It’s ridiculous and going beyond what the Bible says.
I saw a post on another blog the other day where someone recounted this story of a church they went to:
A male preacher told a male church member to “keep his wife in line, or I will do it for you.”
Oh my, if I went to that pastor’s church, what would he do? He’d have to deal with me directly since I have no husband to “keep me in my place.”
Melody wrote:
Concerning J.D. Hall and his Pulpiteers, I’d say that’s probably true.
But if they feel it’s their God-given responsibility to call out sin from anyone and everyone, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did start policing all of Twitter, picking on people at random.
This reminds me of a story a few years ago about a Christian guy who was an adult – and I think he was married with a child or two of his own – and he started a “modesty blog.” I’m sorry I don’t remember the guy’s name or the blog’s name.
What he would do is go around the internet and look for photos of teenage girls and post them to his blog.
He would criticize their clothing. He would go on about how their tank top emphasized the shape of their chests, etc.
Eventually, Christian ladies (and I think some Non Christian ones) got ahold of this guy’s blog and told him how inappropriate it was.
This guy thought (or at least claimed) he was doing God’s work, but to everyone else, he came off looking like a pervert, posting photos of teen girls and young women (who he didn’t even know – not that it would’ve been okay had he been acquainted with them), under the guise of helping them to fix their wardrobe, to dress more modestly.
He was just picking random photos of ladies/girls off the internet and criticizing their bodies and clothing. I visited his blog once and skimmed it, and the whole concept made my skin crawl. He eventually stopped the blog or removed it.
JeffT wrote:
Never underestimate the smug arrogance of God’s Predestined Elect.
“Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
— Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity
Harmonika wrote:
There is no greater hypocrite than one who hides behind the hypocrisy of others.
Ken wrote:
1) This sidetracks it into Abstraction & Semantics, where the debaters have all the home-field advantages. (Remember my former epistle on the subject, My Dear Wormwood…)
2) It’s SOP for an Activist with an Agenda. Activists of all types, whose Cause is so Righteous it justifies anything. Remember what happens whenever there’s a school shooting? The Gun Control Activists come out of the woodwork, eager for the chance To Advance MY Agenda.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
Exactly. We are clear-talking comrades-in-arms. Very helpful to me too.
Value is a trickster. Look at it too closely and it disappears, but when asked, it never denies that it is still there. w00t
Nancy wrote:
Somebody coined the term “God’s Gestapo” for this attitude.
And I also don’t know who came up with the one “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do — if God only KNEW what was REALLY going on.”
So do the Taliban, ISIS, and Boko Haram.
@ dee:
Because you need a break (you do like pugs? Or am I confusing you with Deb, and Deb likes pugs? Even if you’re not a pug aficionado, the pug photos and animated gifs on this page should cheer you up):
The 40 Most Pug Things To Ever Happen In The History Of Pugs
http://news.distractify.com/fun/animals-fun/most-pug-moments-in-history/
Hester wrote:
Or the “William Wallace II” archives….
Ken wrote:
I agree with that. That is what the book of Job deals with, among one or two other issues, but a lot of Christians I see today apparently don’t have the book of Job in their Bibles, or have never read it.
dee wrote:
If this is James White of A and O apologetics ministry, I am disappointed. I never completely agree with all of White’s views, but, he seemed like an all-around decent person prior to this.
You are right in that his comments weren’t fully repudiating the actions of JD Hall and associates, but he was saying that the suicide should not be used to silence critics of the boy’s father.
I would think White would be more understanding and sensitive, as his critics have used his sister’s ordeals and their parents’ deaths (and I think the sister’s conversion to Roman Catholicism) to attack him and his ministry.
Someone named Matt at the watchdog blog said one of J. White’s right hand men was one of the folks tweeting to B. Caner. Let me see if I can find that post. I am just passing this along, I don’t know how accurate it is:
——
By Matt.
there were 5 other people that were harassing Braxton over twitter
@pulpitandpen – JD Hall
@perfectpith – (deleted, but traces back to someone name Ted Beam),
@_vendlerius – Kenneth C. Vendler
@Fred_Butler – Fred Butler
@Shinar_Squirrel – Gene Clyatt
@RichardCPierce – Richard C Pierce (President – Alpha and Omega Ministries)
Interesting words from Wade.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/08/blame-is-not-game-jd-hall-ergun-caner.html
@ Daisy:
Daisy, there was a commenter on the Christian Post article saying something along the lines that Braxton was wrong for responding in the way he did to an elder. I just not understand this thinking.
I have family members who have read TWW’s attack on me (commenters included).
Lydia wrote:
I do: “NO MATTER WHAT, *I* WIN!”
“For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to be Absolutely Wrong.”
— Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
As someone who belongs to a Reformed/Presbyterian church, it is heartbreaking to see what some individuals will lower themselves to in the name of Reformed Christianity. JD Hall and Dustin Germain’s and the Pulpit&Pen folks have confused their so called pursuit and defense of truth with unconscionable spiritual immaturity. They seek to defend their virulent diatribes as in the interests of the church.
However consider what Scripture says:
26 If anyone thinks he is religious qand does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s rreligion is worthless. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: sto visit torphans and widows in their affliction, and uto keep oneself vunstained from the world. (James 1:26-27)
JD Hall is a pastor, yet he cannot bridle his online speech… to a 15 year old boy?! It would seem he, and his associates are ignorant to how impossibly hard it is to take their “religion” seriously when they lack the inability to bridle their words as they throw wisdom, discretion, and common moral sense out the window by willingly making a child a victim of their crusade.
Furthermore:
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. 3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. 4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. 5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. James 3:1-5
Hall seems to be ignorant of this warning to would be teachers and leaders in the church. In his efforts to instigate an new Reformation (God help us if it were to happen!), he can’t seem to square his need to excoriate anyone who doesn’t line up with his doctrinal standards with the abundantly clear teaching of Scripture. Christ laid down his life for the church, and all of his actions are geared at bringing her to full maturity in the faith. How has Hall come close to approaching this?
Lastly:
Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. 10 Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. 11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11
How were his actions towards Braxton Caner informed by the fundamental ethical demand on all Christians – to love the bretheren, moreover to love our enemies?
Thanks Deb & Dee for bringing this tragedy to light. Men like Hall, Germain, et. al. need to be opposed and exposed for what they are – petulent bullies who need to grow up and cease taking the Christ’s name in vain by assuming he is attached in any way to their foolish crusade. It is one thing to speak the truth in love, and to expose error in the church, and quite another to cast aside all decency and Christian obligations to love and serve in the effort to refute all errors (real or perceived). Christ said “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” I think I’ll trust Christ to lead us where he wants to take us rather than a group of men that have mistaken true pastoral callings with the role of being petty schoolyard bullies.
I find the so disturbing.
There is something very mentally “off” that someone would engage a teenage son in this way.
I wonder if authorities have investigated whether or not there were private messages between the adult and the teenager? It seems to me that if he was privately harassing him or providing disturbing info, this could be some type of crime.
b>Daisy wrote:
I get that Daisy. I know Christians who are committed and serious. I know Muslims who are committed and serious. I know Pagans, Buddhists, a Baha’i or two and others who walk the walk of their faith. And I, like you, see and know others who it doesn’t make a bit of difference. It can be depressing, but I like to remember that even with all that diversity of beliefs and faith there are still good people doing good things and living up to their code. That lets me celebrate our shared humanity and keeps me from despair. I’m sorry if your tilt towards agnosticism is painful, mine was. Hopefully your journey goes positive or if you don’t want or can’t accept agnosticism, you go with what beliefs strike you as ones you want to commit to.
brian wrote:
@Brian:
Sorry this isn’t connected to the post above. I still have a hard time with the selecting to reply.
But anyway, your post made my heart hurt Brian! Your pain and your feeling of failure about your job and your mom’s death made me want to write and tell you that it is ok, God loves you very much whatever your past…your concern for your mom shows that you loved your parents and I imagine that your mom was quite aware of how you felt…Again, I am sorry for your loss and send you prayers that you can forgive yourself for what you feel was your failing. God’s love abounds and if you belong to Christ, that is all God sees when he looks at you–acceptable through Jesus’s sacrifice.
Daisy wrote:
…and there’s a very good reason for that.
Sigh…
Dee and Deb, are you OK after yesterday’s insane day of commenting?
For those of you who are curious, I can explain why JD Hall is so opposed to a young man having a girlfriend. It’s because he believes in the “courtship betrothal” baggage and that a young girl is the “property” of her father. See the law in Exodus where people stoned their daughters for not proving their virginity. I learned all this disturbing stuff from JD Hall’s Radio Program on Purity Balls. It was disgusting.
I am very sorry for the family. It must be SO HARD.
Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
There’s also “something very mentally ‘off'” about someone preaching a sermon on Polishing-the-Shaft (with sound effects), and we all know how that one ended.
@ Jed Paschall:
Thank you so much for this wise reply. Agree totally. There is a sickness within the church, and there are many who have given their hearts away to fame, and I don’t mean the “fame of Jesus” to which so many appeal as justification for their actions.
And yes, I am speaking about every one of the disciples of John Piper, all of the Together4Guys and TheGuyCoalition and Wayne Grudem (whose ST is used to interpret the Bible) and all of their clones/parrots/puppets/minions who have chosen to pattern their lives after these mere men. And this infects every other camp that focuses on humans rather than Christ, because it is not just a Calvin thing. It is worldliness masquerading as faith. It is frightening. And it is why this lifelong active church member is out of the organized church for the foreseeable future. While I see Jesus in the members, I cannot stomach the harm being perpetrated by the “shepherds” in Jesus’ name.
I read the post at Wade Burleson’s. While I agree that no blame should be placed because we cannot know what was going on in Braxton’s mind, the callousness of the friends of J.D. Hall in that post’s comments are very disturbing. They are most anxious that J.D. be defended from blame for the suicide, but they will not say that it was sinful for this “pastor” to do what he actually and undeniably did. They are blinded by their rage at the “other” and looking for an excuse not to talk about their wrong behavior. Most of us already know how to do that without their example. There is yet no evidence that this will provoke self-examination among these chronological adults and self-appointed authorities.
This whole episode hits very close to home in several ways, having experienced spiritual abuse personally and in my family, like many here. So I again thank TWW for providing a forum.
Tina wrote:
My thoughts exactly! How are you holding up you sad old harridans? 😉
@Deb – hope you can get some R&R
It seems to me that Braxton “bested” Mr. Hall in the exchange of Tweets and the fact that he was on the “creepy” losing end of the discussion provoked the final Tweet by Mr. Hall. I doubt that this exchange had much to do with the death.
@ Crystal:
Did you get any idea why Hall thinks that somebody else’s kid is his business?
Beakerj wrote:
Dee has been doing the heavy lifting here, and I am indebted to her!
I have spent the last two days hanging out with my married daughter, whom I haven't seen that much this summer. Yesterday, we had lunch at a French restaurant, and I accompanied her to the dentist and ophthalmologist for routine visits before her school year starts. Today I spent several hours in her classroom helping her get ready for her first graders. She is such a wonderful, godly teacher!
Thanks for asking. 🙂
Crystal wrote:
Is that what the males commit to in that culture?
The act of “calling out sin” seems to be an obsession with many modern evangelicals, especially those who lean very fundamental. Unfortunately, this calling out of sin seems to be used as a weapon in that it is always your enemy’s sin that is greater than your own or that of your friend.
I wonder how this Hall guy feels about creeps like Gothard or Doug Phillips being exposed for defiling young woman? I’m curious, did he ever have anything to say about this? It’s very bizarre that you would be obsessed over a teenager kissing his girlfriend and using a few profanities.
It seems that with these oddballs, the sin of their enemy is always much bigger than their own sin or the sins of their friends. This is what we call hypocrisy and making differences. It IS sinful and makes our Lord sad and angry, especially when this involves those who call themselves shepherds. God will not be mocked and whatever you sow, you will reap.
Gram3 wrote:
Perfect description. Can I steal it?
Oops, I meant the R&R comment at Dee. But glad you’re enjoying your days, Deb. I didn’t realize your daughter was a teacher. Cool.
@ Bennett Willis:
It did not help Braxton. And there was definitely an attempt to drive a wedge between him and his father.
@ Lydia:
Well yes, certainly. I appreciate your comments, too!
Seneca
Please have them give me a call. I would love to talk with them. However, I did edit one of the comments.
Bennett Willis wrote:
It certainly didn’t help. He also blogged about him and talked about him on his radio show. See article above.
dee wrote:
Thank you.
@ Patrice:
At this stage in my life, I have a couple of close friends (one very close) and they have helped give my a perspective on value…I can actual see that my presence here has benefited them. It may sound strange to many, but knowing that sticking around is benefiting someone else and leaving would harm them…..has helped me more in a way nothing else could. Leaning against each-other – one stronger today, tomorrow the other – this is what keeps us going.
But even with that, there are days when it is just a fight to hold on and not want to be done. But those have gotten much fewer and seem to amplify when I spend too much time isolating….go figure. 😉
One of the many things you helped me realize is that some of the damage – even the emotional (or maybe especially the emotional) – may be permanent…and that that is not a reflection on my value or my strength. To accept the damage and learn to work with it instead of always trying to fix it, fight against it, be angry with it….this has helped much. Thank you.
If you read the texts and try to analyze why the exchange went the way it did, you might reach the conclusions I did–or not. What I proposed seems to me to be consistent with the whole scenario and that is a mark of correctness for me.
I can remember being 15 (or so) even if it was 60 years ago. It was no fun. I agree that the exchange did not help things, but feel that there is a much better explanation for what went on than just Mr. Hall’s ill conceived comments. @ Lydia:
It was more than JD. Several others among his miniots (minion idiot) also were attacking Braxton for some time. I think it is called piling on, and, even in the NFL, it merits a penalty.
Lydia and Marsha, I feel that Braxton knew exactly what his Father did–and that the complaints against Dr. Caner were justified. His Internet activity regarding his Father was apparently not limited. In that respect, Mr. Hall’s suggestion that Braxton might want to contact him (Hall) to find what Braxton’s Father had done was insulting–deliberately. When you lose an exchange (as I feel Hall did) you often try to deliver a “telling” parting shot.
@ Bennett Willis:
Of course he knew. That is why it was so insulting and obvious it was an attempt to turn him against his dad or make him ashamed of his dad… because these “men of God” were against him. What is a 15 year old to do with that? he did not seek out JD and his minions. JD sought him out and his minions piled on. And now many keep trying to exonerate him…. at the boys expense. I find it all very troubling. I cannot live in their world, it is too cruel.
I was reading some of the tweets and all I could think was, “poor child.”This kind of bullying is horrible, and even though the bullies may not have intended to bully a troubled teen to suicide, they accomplished their purpose, which was to do evil. Bullying is evil. My condolences to the Caner family. This is awful. If the instigators have a conscience they will be haunted by their actions.
Christianity Today has weighed in on its Gleanings website. TWW is mentioned in the post.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/suicide-pastors-kid-soul-searching-ergun-caner-braxton-hall.html
It should also be pointed out that in this episode of his radio show, JD Hall allows that C.J. Mahaney of SGM “may” have engaged in coverup of child abuse, but claims that Mahaney has a “God-called” ministry and attacks SGM’s critics, including TWW: http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=52314020320
Contrast Hall’s standards for Mahaney with his standards for others.
Nicholas
Thank you for your comment. You have no idea how timely it was.
Gram3 wrote:
Gram3, so well said. I would add to your list The Grace to You, Grace Community Staff, Master’s Sem, and Grace Advance group as well, not all for sure, but way too many of them.
This whole tragedy is sticking heavy in my heart and mind day after day. I’m so saddened by this. I have never followed Caner other than to hear the news and uproar during the days of the Caner/White debate. I’m sure I would have disagreements with him, but why should anyone make it their business to stalk him or his family? Why should a young man have to engage grown pastor strangers talking about him and his girlfriend? I am so sad for that poor young girl who is still dealing with all of this.
You are right – there is a sickness within our “church” today and I think you nailed the source.
On another note – kind of related since I would like to know why grown men are obsessing over other peoples’ children – why would John Piper, now being called Peeking Piper in the blogisphere, tweet yesterday:
“Down by the river the teenagers would go to make out. I watched them drive back. They never looked happy. Especially she.”
Why is an grown man watching teenagers to observe their looks after making out?
Honestly, some times I think if these pastors don’t have enough to do in their local ministries, someone should come along side them and take away their electronic devices. Creepy.
@ dee:
No problem Dee! I was flabbergasted back when I first listened to that. If Mahaney is guilty to what even Hall admitted, which he is, then Mahaney is disqualified from ministry. How could Hall then still claim that his ministry is “God-called”?
Nicholas wrote:
It’s pretty clear as we look back on some of the issues that have been covered in the past few years. There is one standard for leaders and another (like a moving target) standard for everyone else.
Bridget
Deb and I have remained silent over the past years regarding Hall, Germain and the others as they have gone after us. They have been so vehement and aggressive that we decided that silence in response to their radio show, posts and comments was best. As you know, Germain went after us in a big way in May. Once again, we remained silent, hoping that they might leave us alone. Unfortunatey, with the current situation, we were obligated to say something. As you know, child abuse, etc is a major topic on this blog. When kids get caught in gospel™ crossfire, we must speak. This was one of those times.
We are hoping that Hall and BFFs have learned a hard lesson with the incidents of the past weeks. We believe that this is not over yet. My guess is that they will never forget it. The question for the two of us remains. Will they change, like our good friend Eagle, or will they continue on with their previous behavior.? Paul was blinded on the Damascus Road and changed. Next week you will read of Eagle’s Damascus Road and how it effected a radical change in his life. It is a most incredible story. I hope that the “pulpiteers” read his story. They need to understand it, badly.
dee wrote:
A great analogy regarding Eagle. Nobody is beyond God’s grace being able to produce the needed transformation
Nicholas wrote:
HUMBLY(TM), of course.
Bridget wrote:
“All animals are equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.”
— G.Orwell, Animal Farm
Thank you Dee and Deb for your hard work and for enduring all the fall out.
I posted this information on Julie Anne’s site last night. Forgive me if it has already been shared. It’s quite a task to read through all these posts to check! It is a bit long. The uh’s and um’s are added not to belittle his speaking style, but to provide an accurate transcript.
Contrary to speculation, JD Hall is not out there somewhere keeping quiet.
http://www.worldviewweekend.com/radio
http://worldviewweekend.org/radio/audio/jd-hall-august-7-2014
At this website, JD HALL audio is available July 31, 2014, August 1,5,6,and 7. On the 7th, JD Hall addresses briefly the death of Braxton Caner. (Old audio is available for Feb and Mar 2014.)
8/6/2014
Who is:
JESSE JOHNSON (Pastor of Immanuel Bible Church in Springfield, VA. Graduate of The Master’s Seminary, former staff member of Grace Community Church and son-in-law of Bill Shannon. Julie Anne will remember Bill I’m sure.)
BRANNON HOWSE (introduction to the program by Brannon – founder of World View Radio and Weekend.)
Audio begins:
“This is Jesse Johnson from the program, “Immanuel” on World View Radio. Jesus said that where truth goes, freedom follows. World View radio is a powerful ministry as it takes truth and disseminates it. Brannon and his staff have a strategic ministry because they are able to shine a bright light on some dark corners of evangelicalism. That light exposes error, but more than that it also teaches people to love the truth…” (continues with plea for financial support)
Continues:
“This is the Pulpit and Pen radio program with your host JD Hall. Hello I am Brannon House with World View Weekend and WorldViewRadio.com. We are pleased to have taken part in helping launch this program as it seeks to fulfill our ultimate mission and goal which is to protect and proclaim a biblical world view. Pulpit and Pen radio program is distributed in part as a ministry of the World View Weekend Foundation and now here is your host, JD Hall.”
JD HALL speaks. (Note: I’ve not listened to the entire audios, but skipped along the minutes and heard nothing on Braxton until the 8/7 audio.
8/7/2014
JD Hall talks about Braxton Caner early in the audio before launching into his program..
JD HALL (excerpt transcript)
“Let me address something really quickly, something terribly, terribly sad. Um the passing of Braxton Caner. Um a lot of people have asked me for comment, I don’t want to say a lot, but a few, a few have emailed me “Can you make a comment about this?” Um the answer is uh first of all the time is not right. Um no. No I’m not at this point in time. Um not exactly the sensitive thing to do. Um secondly, um I’ve had emails, couple phone calls, saying “What exactly happened there?” Um what was the extent of your interaction with with uh with Braxton Caner.
Um I’ll tell you the same thing I’ve told the handful of people that have called on the phone um it’s there for you to see. Uh nothing of our interaction has been deleted. Not a single thing.
Uh we did take a post down off the Pulpit and Pen in relation to this um because I was asked um by uh The Wartburg Watch or one of their twitter accounts to do so and uh I talked to somebody smarter than me and they said yeah for the time being why don’t you do that. So we consented and then a few minutes later I saw some of the same people say “You’re just trying to hide stuff”. Nope um we’re trying to be sensitive. When the time comes we will discuss this more fully.
In the meantime, like the rest of of the world I will be praying for the Caner family and would ask you to do the same. And so I will leave it there for the time being because that is what is prudent it is what is sensitive and at this point in time I think it is the only thing that is helpful and even that may be an overstatement in this terrible time. It’s one of those situations where words literally cannot express the hardship that is present in their lives at the moment.”
Hard to find the words… wrote:
They are not accountable by the metrics that most people must meet in the real world. In the real world, you must produce something measurable. In the totally artificial world of church “leaders” you get to make up your own metrics. And then, if anyone objects or has questions, then you can turn the table on them and they become the problem due to rebelliousness or personal sin or whatever the “leader” believes will work to shut you up or make you go away quietly. “Sinning through questioning” and all of its variant forms of silencing.
Piper says the most absurd things. And I mean literally absurd. They would be ridiculously funny if he did not have such an enormous audience waiting for the latest “Biblical” insights from Pastor John which frequently are not in the Bible. His tweet about Deep speaking to Deep or whatever it was reminded me of Jack Handy. And I really wish someone would test his idea of being smacked around for the glory of God
The whole premise for Piper’s magnum opus, RBMW, is absurd. Has anyone ever known of a child who asked his/her parent what it means to be a man or a woman? Parents would probably be the last ones kids would ask, I think. Piper and his band should not just make up stuff and run with it for 500 pages of repetitive and utterly predictable drivel. Maybe he asked his mother that question when he was a boy, which might have some explanatory power regarding his obsession with power and masculinity.
Hard to find the words… wrote:
I will give him grammar props for using “she” instead of “her.” Otherwise it is a mess. Was there something about being at the river that made her especially unhappy? How does Piper know they *never* looked happy? Did he follow them multiple times from wherever he was down to the river and back? Was his sample size adequate to support “never” or is he just making stuff up again? Did Driscoll tell him he saw teenagers down at the river? My guess is that in this instance Deep is speaking to Deep who is gazing into a mirror and seeing deepness. I’m a shallow woman, so I don’t get it.
Parody is getting harder and harder with these guys.
Wade Burleson wrote:
Perhaps they will seek the Lord in this rather than their fellows. But it will require a complete deconstruction of their worldview and self-identity which seems to me to be that they are the co-redeemers that God has been waiting for all this time to reclaim his kingdom (though of course that is not what they would say.) By God’s grace this will be their wake-up call, although they are not noted for paying attention to their critics, even the friendly ones who care personally about them, as I, sadly, have learned personally.
Gram3 wrote:
Piper’s tweet has inspired a couple of people to write poetry and music!
In case you haven’t seen these yet,
http://ericpaz.tumblr.com/post/94033764601/a-strange-feature-on-garageband-converts-john
and from BeenThereDoneThat:
Peeper Piper peeked a park of pecking puppies.
A park of pecking puppies Peeper Piper peeked.
If Peeper Piper peeked a park of pecking puppies,
Should pecking puppies pepper spray Peeper Piper’s peeks?
Gram3 wrote:
Haha – I hadn’t heard about the Deep quote until yesterday. You can’t make this stuff up.
“Deep calls to deep” is true of her necklines and his knowing. The problem is, Jesus is not a fertility god. John Piper
One twitter post said in response to the Down by the River tweet,
Emily Timbol @EmilyTimbol Aug 6
@JohnPiper @DefendTheSheep Maybe they weren’t happy because a creepy old man was watching them.
Bee wrote:
Soooo, in your strange universe, a blogger not covering your favorite pet story on a basis you deem frequent enough is tantamount to a ‘cover up?’
Please take note of the “shock face” emoticon I’m using in reaction to that over- the- top accusation: 😯
Sounds like a fanciful conspiracy theory: Deb and Dee in “Operation Cover Up,” where they send out decoder rings to every one. 🙄