"If I or my soldiers have plundered or done injury to the houses or ministers of religion, I repent me of my sin; but it is not of Edward of England I shall ask pardon." -William Wallace link
This week has been both hard and wonderful for me. Both Deb and I experienced such joy in meeting with some awesome readers in the DC area. Todd Wilhelm, the official hero of TWW, joined us after flying in from Dubai. What an incredible experience for us. Thank you all for accepting us into your lives. We apologize for our diminished commenting. We had some business after returning to Raleigh but are now back in the saddle.
However, in the midst of those joyful meetings, we learned about a deeply disturbing situation. Ergun Caner's 15 year old boy, Braxton, committed suicide on July 29. The pain that his mom and dad are currently experiencing is unimaginable. But, there is a back story to this tragedy that makes it even more disturbing. That account was so upsetting to us that we had a hard time sleeping when we were alerted to the situation. We are holding off writing about this until next week. We have asked some people who are close to the family and have received a "go ahead" on the post. It is vital that certain behavior never, ever happen again.
Consequently, our schedule for next week will change. We will run Eagle's Story, Part 2, on Monday. On Tuesday, we will follow with the horrible circumstances surrounding Braxton Caner's suicide. We will name names and provide documentation. We will not post again until Friday. There will be much to discuss with the two posts.
In the meantime, please pray for Ergun and Jill Caner and their family. The funeral is at 2 PM on Saturday. Also, pray for the Petry family whose own tragedy is discussed below.
TWW is deeply grateful to Dr. Warren Throckmorton for carrying the water on the Mars Hill saga. He has done a spectacular job in providing a thoughtful window into the complexities surrounding the ever growing mess. So much has happened in the past weeks that we wanted to update our readers in a single post so that they can keep abreast of the developments
The daughter of Jonna and Paul Petry is in critical condition after an accident.
This morning we received the following sad email from Rob Smith.
Eleanor, the daughter of Paul and Jonna Petry had a serious car accident last night. She is in critical care with serious head injuries, unconscious.. it is touch and go.
Perhaps you remember the story of the Petrys which we posted in 2012 Former Mars Hill Pastor, Paul Petry, Starts Joyful Exiles – Startling Revelation. Jonna Petry wrote the story of the unjust firing of Paul Petry and Bent Myer. To refresh your memory, here is another typically repulsive comment from Mark Driscoll.
"What do you do with someone who is rebellious, hard-hearted, stiff necked and stupid? You break their nose." Mark Driscoll in his "private" message to his congregation moments before firing Paul Petry and Bent Myer
We would ask that you read this story to remind yourself of Driscoll's despicable behavior towards the Petrys. Due to the nature of the firing, the Petry's have some financial needs. Rob Smith has set up a Go Fund Me account for the Petry's to assist in the obvious financial concerns that will accompany this sad situation. Having been through a serious medical crisis with one of my children, I can testify to this need.
Here is the link to the Petry page on Go Fund Me. We thank Rob Smith for his efforts in this matter. Above all, please pray for this wonderful family.
The deeply disturbing rants of William Wallace II (aka Mark Driscoll): Putting the 'T' in Total Depravity
One of Driscoll's downfalls is his inability to zip his lip. He likes to call attention to himself. Dr Throckmorton wrote a post that caused an explosion. Mark Driscoll in 2000: “We Live in a Completely Pussified Nation”. As always, the ever persistent Wenatchee the Hatchet did the laborious legwork in tracking the information down.
Here is the background. In 2006, Driscoll published his book Confessions of a Reformission Rev. In that book, he mentioned Midrash, a discussion board that they had for Mars Hill back in 2000. In the book Driscoll admitted to visiting the discussion under the name William Wallace II. So, Wenatchee decided to see what words of wisdom Driscoll, who had been the pastor of Mars Hill for several years at that time, shared with his unwitting audience.
*Trigger Alert*
Prepare to be disgusted. There are over 100 pages of entries. It is now referred to as "We Live in a Pussified Nation" if you look on Google. Some of his entries are so vile that I couldn't read them out loud to Deb. Here is a link to the 100+ pages of deplorable rants by a pastor who knows how to "put the 'T' in Total Depravity." This is a link to the blog of Wenatchee the Hatchet if you want to read more about the history behind William Wallace II and Midrash. (Ringing applause for Wenatchee's efforts from Raleigh.)
“We live in a completely Pussified Nation. We could get every man, real man as opposed to pussified James Dobson knock-off crying Promise Keeping homoerotic, worship loving mama’s boy sensitive emasculated neutered exact male replica evangellyfish, and have a conference in a phone book.
“It all began with Adam, the first of the pussified nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything fall headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his mouth and listened to his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian when he should have lead her and exercised his delegated authority as king of the planet.
“As a result, he was cursed for listening to his wife and every man since has been his pussified sit quietly by and watch a nation of men be raised by bitter penis envying burned feministed single mothers who make sure that Johnny grows up to be a very nice woman who sits down to pee.”
Here is his view of women at the end of this particular rant.There is far more. (Remember, there are over 100 pages of this nonsense.
I know many of the women will disagree, and they like Eve should not speak on this matter.
And, many men will also disagree, which is further proof of the pussificcation epidemic having now become air born and universal. Pussified men are inarguably legion. Nothing short of an exorcism is needed.
(Read the rest of this at the above link. It deteriorates from here.)
Update 8/1 7PM :Mark Driscoll Addresses Crude Comments Made Trolling as 'William Wallace II'
Essentially, he says that was a long time ago and "never mind." I am not impressed.
"The content of my postings to that discussion board does not reflect how I feel, or how I would conduct myself today," he told his church members Friday. "Over the past 14 years I have changed, and, by God's grace, hope to continue to change.
Paul Tripp quits Mars Hill's BOAA.
Wouldn't we like to know what is behind this one! However, Tripp has yet to make a statement. Once again, Dr Throckmorton posts on the matter. Paul Tripp Has Resigned from the Mars Hill Church Board of Advisors and Accountability. Here is link to Paul Tripp's website. Dee speculates that he joined because he thought he could do some good and discovered, after 8 months, that it was fruitless.
Tripp, one of the newest board members and popular conference speaker, was unavailable this morning, but in response to my question about Tripp’s membership on the Mars Hill Church BOAA, Steve Sarkisian, Vice President of Paul Tripp Ministries, told me, “Paul resigned from the board.”
No reason was given for the departure.
Paul Tripp was appointed to the Board in November, 2013.
The protest on 8/3/14: They are NOT anonymous.
A protest outside of Mars Hill, Bellevue, is being organized by Rob Smith (and others). Smith is featured in the KOMO video below. TWW has been privileged to speak with Smith who we believe is a great example of thoughtful, brave Christian leadership.
Former members of the Mars Hill Church plan to carry signs reading "QUESTION MARK" outside the mega-church's Bellevue campus on Sunday morning, and deliver a message to its embattled senior minister, Mark Driscoll.
…A tipping point seems to have come earlier this month. In a video sermon, Driscoll acknowledged that there are disillusioned former members of his flock but said they have chosen to "remain anonymous."
"And so we don't know how to reconcile, or how to work things out with, with people because we're not entirely sure who they are …"
The anonymity assertion "really touched a nerve," said Smith, who once directed a church ministry called Agathos, which cares for orphans.
"We are Christian, loving people who don't normally demonstrate," Smith added. "We want to have a quiet, strong message for Mark Driscoll, that people he has harmed over the years are not unknown to him as he has claimed."
The harming, according to disillusioned former members, ranged from verbal abuse to shunning to threats of retaliation.
TWW will keep our readers informed about the protest.
Did Mark Driscoll ever write his own stuff? Here is another well documented plagiarism charge.
Once again, Dr Throckmorton uncovers more plagiarism charges in Former Colleague Provides Evidence Mark Driscoll Plagiarized Material in Two Books.
In 2004, Zondervan published The Radical Reformission: Reaching Out Without Selling Out by Mark Driscoll. In 2006, they published Driscoll’s Confessions of a Reformission Rev: Hard Lessons from an Emerging Missional Church. In these books, among other things, Driscoll addressed the relationships between the Gospel, the church, and culture. In The Radical Reformission, he borrowed a graphic from a book edited by George Hunsberger which indicates a reciprocal relationship between the three spheres. In addition, he outlined how leaving out any one of the spheres could lead to a negative result.
Please go to Dr Throckmorton's post for actual pictures of the alleged plagiarism. However, the following statement about Acts 29 is concerning.
Acts 29 allegedly ignore the original author's complaints.
Wheeler added that he thinks Driscoll may have taken advantage of the fact that Wheeler was younger and a subordinate to Driscoll. Wheeler eventually brought charges against Driscoll to the board of the Acts29 Network regarding a pattern of abusive behavior he said he experienced with Driscoll. According to Wheeler, the board did not take his charges seriously. In fact, all of the board at the time may not have seen the charges. According to Wheeler, some of the board members later told him his letter was never seen by the board.
In any case, Wheeler told me that he is stepping forward now because he hopes his former mentor will take the public outcry seriously and move toward change. “After going to Mark and others, I hope the weight of all of these things I am bringing forward will cause Mark to listen and change,” Wheeler said.
The Deebs have received some complaints from readers about Acts 29 ignoring their complaints involving Driscoll and Acts 29 church planters. We documented the concerning story of Countryside Church and plan to watch for further concerns in the months to come.
USA Today: Is the celebrity pastor star fading?
Is it any wonder that people are beginning to question church leadership? USA Today published 'Rock star' pastors lose luster: Column
It's not easy being a celebrity pastor these days with that pesky Internet around.
Consider the struggles of Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Faced with mounting accusations circulating online — plagiarism, misusing church funds to prop book sales, silencing anyone in his church with the temerity to question him — Driscoll has urged his followers to stay off the Web. "It's all shenanigans anyway," he explains.
Steven Furtick, a megachurch pastor in North Carolina, and Dave Ramsey, an evangelical finance guru, have been taking hits, too, as have the wheeler-dealers on the Preachers of L.A. reality show. This, against a backdrop of culture shifts creating strong headwinds against the leader-and-follower model typified by today's Christian superstars.
What are a megapastor and his followers to do? Remembering the biblical admonitionsagainst idolatry would be a good start.
…Now, however, there's a wild card that older-school religious celebrities did not have to contend with. Thanks to the Internet, any disgruntled current or former follower can write a scathing blog post, add nasty comments to reader forums or, as creator of@FakeDriscoll does, voice a spoof Twitter account in the target's name. This can take a toll — as demonstrated by Driscoll's church, which has had to lay off staff due to declining attendance and giving.
The article ends with a question which is an equally good ending for this post.
Henderson might be right about this being the beginning of the end for celebrity megapastors. Until that process runs its course, however, fans of the Driscolls, Furticks and the rest have a big question to ask themselves. Who, ultimately, are they following? Jesus? Or their pastor?
Lydia's Corner: Micah 1:1-4:13 Revelation 6:1-17 Psalm 134:1-3 Proverbs 30:1-4
I’m not a fan of Ergun Caner. That said, I am horribly shocked and grieved at the suicide of Braxton Caner. If Ergun were in front of me, I’d give him a huge hug and tell him how awful I feel because his son is no longer with us. I am so sorry this has happened to the Caner family and their friends and acquaintances. May God be with them in this time of sadness.
What absolutely terrible news. Any suicide is sad, the suicide of such a young man is shattering. That poor lad, & his poor family.
I want to know what kind of man uses a vulgar expression meaning a female’s external genitalia to describe men he disapproves of. It’s a slam not so much against the men he disapproves of, because it’s so stupid – a vulvified man? what in the world could that mean? but a slam against ALL women. What did I ever do to Mark Driscoll? What did my daughter ever do to Mark Driscoll? If he wants men to be aggressive and unpleasant and rude and pugnacious and overbearing and offensive, can he not say that and leave us out of it?
Oh dear God. How does anyone ever live after the suicide of a child? That poor young man. Like Mirele, I am not a fan of his father’s, but this is so horrible, poor Mom and Dad and younger brother. May God comfort them all.
After having students of mine take their lives while I had them in class, there is nothing more gut wrenching. The parents may never get over it, and if they do, it will only be after much prayer and counseling.
My prayers to Mr. And Mrs. Caner and their family members.
It is way too easy to say that there seems to be something or other really wrong with MD and think that is the whole problem. But there are grown men and grown women who sit on one of his pews week after week, and people who read his stuff and listen to his talk. These people are not guiltless in enabling this trash to continue. And there are employees of that church who still work there, and people who still give money, all of whom enable this mess. And a school which makes a deal with him. And publisher(s) who apparently have standards so low as to step over and make excuses for him.
We seem to be drowning in corruption and scandals and disgrace. I want to say to one and all who have had church garbage dumped on their head, I am so sorry that happened to you. Sorry is such a silly little word, used way too much with way too little meaning. If I think of a better word I will use it. In the meantime, I am so sorry.
Driscoll was at least 30 when he made those remarks. And a Christian. And a pastor. Unacceptable.
This is a fine summary of Driscoll’s abusive behavior:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/why-the-mars-hill-faithful-have-started-to-question-mark/Content?oid=20257920
I didn’t know that 1,000 of Mars Hills’ original 1,600 members refused to re-up after Driscoll fired the two dissenting pastors and canceled everyone’s memberships. That’s incredibly damning.
M. Joy wrote:
This. When reading that tirade, you can almost feel the hatred of those words seep through the computer screen. I sincerely hope that he doesn’t feel this way now, as he told his congregation. With that said, when he boasts about throwing those who don’t agree with him “under the bus,” I’m highly suspect of any change that might have occurred within that time frame.
I can’t think of a single person I have ever known who would have used the kind of language or adopted the kind of ruthlessly cruel and pugnacious attitude that Driscoll did. Not at any age. Even in our less than stellar moments as teenagers, my friends and I never produced anything close to the volume of crudeness and hatred that Driscoll expresses. For him to do this at age 30 and in the position of pastor of a large church is beyond the pale. In any sane environment, it would be grounds for immediate disqualification from leadership, and repentance and repudiation of these awful remarks. That none of these seem to have happened is absolutely shameful.
Apparently, Driscoll really is narcissistic, controlling, abusive, misogynistic, etc. It seems to me that the extreme temper tantrums that have so often been reported also suggest the possibility of bipolar disease. It has been reported that he wrote, in one of his books, that so many of his relatives suffered from mental illness — what illness(es) I don’t know — that his parents moved away from them. It is my understanding (I am NOT a mental health professional) that bipolar disease is quite highly heritable, yet it is particularly difficult for people with this disease to admit that they have a problem. In my opinion, he needs a psychiatric evaluation,but, it’s highly unlikely that he will consent to one.
Jessica wrote:
I agree. I remain unimpressed.
Joan wrote:
Unfortunately, there were too many newbies ready to fill their spot and contribute money to the cause.
These two stories, unfortunately, go well together. I won’t say more out of respect for the family, but bullying is a terrible thing, and we need to hold bullies accountable.
@ Joan:
Last summer, I had the opportunity to meet with Rob Smith who is interviewed for the post. He is a thoughtful Christian who is on mission to help the people of Africa. He feels deeply for those hurt by Mars Hill. I am so glad that he is involved in this effort. He brings gravitas and organizational skill along with kindness and love for the church. He has a great sense of humor as well!
If Driscoll is not a wolf in sheep's clothing as the Bible warns us about, I can not imagine what one would be like. His ministry is all about him. The Bible says God will not share His Glory with another.
A FB friend shared RHE’s post on the William Wallace thread. I commented on his FB that excuses made for Driscoll’s “youth” fall flat because he was ~31yo…and the WW comments read like those of an immature, extremely rude and disgusting 15yo boy. In fact I’ve never actually met an IRL 15yo boy that was that over-the-top. And not to nitpick, but, um…
…run-on sentence much? 😉
So, Dee, I have just one question: is a link to the music video for Macho Man now officially appropriate? 😉
__
“Glass Half Empty: ‘Good Ta Go’ ?!?”
hmmm…
‘Orthodoxy’ Ops Chk:
No taking church money from da till,
[Check]
no proverbial personal peckerwood pastoral sex scandal…
[Check]
Ding! Ding!
[‘Orthodoxy’ Ops -Chk-Good]
–> Pastor Mark Driscoll is good-ta-go!
What?
…come on folks, ‘Pussyified’ – that was fourteen years ago, people change…
(give him a break)
-snicker-
…isn’t he into porno-vision, plagiarism, fattening his retirement accounts, discussing anal sex in the christian bedroom, and fleecing da New York Times Best Seller List now-a-dayz?
WoW!
‘change’ indeed!
Such a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, a ‘learned’ instructor of the foolish, a fine up-stand-ing example to our nation’s youth, a great religious teacher as well…
isn’t-that-something?
…all that and his own ‘super hero’ too!
Who knew?
*
“Driscoll, a favorite feature of print media, is an apt caricature of how unbelievers view Christians. A sophomoric boor whose wife must die a thousand deaths of humiliation at the knowledge that her pastor husband views her as a sexual servant commanded of God to “service” him whenever he crooks a finger. Young men buy into this tripe, and Mars Hill attendees grow exponentially as word of the overtly sexual content spreads; but, Piper says, ‘I love Driscoll’s theology.’ ”
~ ezekielcountdown [1]
*
“Mark, the name of God is blasphemed among the ‘yet to be saved’ through you diligent efforts , keep up the good work…” ~ Scerwtape, Revisited.
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Intermission: Keaton Henson – “All Things Must Pass…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN-4tKKukZ8
[1] http://ezekielcountdown.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/john-piper-loves-driscolls-theology/
—
The book in which MD admitted/boasted his alter ego was published in 2006, and NO ONE checked up on his comments before?? Given that Midrash was some sort of in-house message board for Mars Hillians, and the book was certainly marketed to them, it is nearly inconceivable that none of them connected the dots before, since all of his comments were disgustingly memorable. That means that while Driscoll is the author, many of his people knowingly excused/encouraged him even then. It is long past time for the Mars Hill Bus to creak into the junk yard of bad theology and head to the smelter— selling off for parts would only spread the decay.
Reading the William Wallace comments (or as much as I could stomach) was frankly terrifying. They’re the sort of rants I’d expect from someone who was an abuser. People who say those sorts of things are the sorts of people who you hope are never around women or children, let alone have a wife and kids. And especially, definitely, they should never EVER have a position of authority.
John wrote:
Insert the word “permanent” before disqualification. People who have been convicted of a relative simple and not terribly harmful felony carry that as a disqualification for the rest of their lives. Driscoll’s behavior should be a permanent disqualification.
I have a great deal of sympathy for the Caner family. At the same time, Ergun Caner is himself a bully. And the impulse of some to blame the bloggers who have pointed out Ergun’s repeated lies for over a decade, from which he profited financially, are not to blame for the death of the young man. That is not where the fault resides.
@ An Attorney:
Did you read about what that preacher did/tried to do to Caner's son online? A couple of us have already mentioned about not being fans of Caner, that is not what I am talking about right now. I am talking about that preacher in Montana.
Because I’m a 26 year old American female, I am heavily aware of the sort of misogynistic ravings that occur online. One hardly cannot be.
I am not surprised at all. No, it isn’t appropriate, but MD fits the picture to a T. Age knows no bounds for male entitlement. Entitled to sex from Grace, entitled to lord over other women, entitled to browbeat and insult men older and more experienced than himself because they act “like women,” entitled to blame all his problems on women and men who sympathize with them.
If you had a house, or a paycheck, or something that was yours, and one day you realized that someone else had taken it from you (legally!1!), you’d be angry. That was yours! That was yours by right and how dare they! That’s where MD and the angry young men like Adam Lanza are right now. Women and total access to them is what they were taught to expect (if you don’t believe, think about all the movies, books, and media in general where the hero is a young [white] man and there’s a woman who is the right age and even if she was a character beforehand, they automatically end up together because… prize- I’d wager it’s 90% of beloved media.)
When you have what is yours taken away, you get angry.
It’s a Christian problem that this man is a pastor, but he’s a symptom of a larger societal problem that young people are getting the message that women are objects. Most men grow out of it- they get married and they have empathy and they learn and mature. But some people don’t grow up. Or, some people don’t get what they think they deserve. MD has pretty much said outright that Grace didn’t give him his just desserts, so… this isn’t speculation on my part.
It’s gross, it’s vile, it’s tamer and less personally threatening than most of what’s directed at the average young woman with the temerity to have an opinion online that a male person disagrees with.
@ Caitlin:
I agree with everything that you said except where you said that most men grow out of it. I do not think they do. Some of them tame their behavior down somewhat, some of them tame their behavior down a lot, but I do not think that most of them give up the ideas that you are talking about. Now, some men may actually not buy into this stuff at all, but dear goodness what I have heard spewing out of the mouths of men–live men just sitting there talking with each other. I think that what I am saying is one reason that there are always newbies flocking to Mars Hill, as they have said. MD tells them what they want to hear.
@ Caitlin:
The Internet has become, in some areas, fertile ground for misogynistic and objectifying behaviours to manifest. Whether it’s discussion boards like PUAhate or MRA subreddits, blogs like A Voice For Men or Return of Kings, there has been an increasing volume to the voices of the anti feminists. I find it frustrating how youtube videos featuring attractive women ( or even any woman) will undoubtedly have a sexual comment or more. “I’d totally do XXX to her!” to put it mildly. Rape and death threats towards women to who speak out about matters concerning women, revenge porn, the publication of personal details of women who act “out of line”. Plethoras of rape apologists whenever an article or news even regarding rape pops up (granted some apologists are women), and the inevitable “but what about teh menz!!” comments.
One of the most immature and infuriating Twitter scenes I’ve seen was when Marion Bartoli won the Wimbledon Women’s last year. Her opponent was a svelte tall blond, Marion is a more stocky woman. Sports tournaments are not a competition of looks but of athletic performance, however too many men on the Internet didn’t think so. Her twitter feed was filled with pigs calling her fat and ugly and other obscenities. http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/54864863081/womens-wimbledon-champion-marion-bartoli-deemed
I couldn’t believe it. Luckily she brushed it all off with a comment to he effect of “I came to win Wimbledon, not to win a modelling contract.”
Would like to add to my above comment (which is in mod right now) a big THANK YOU to the fellas who stand by women and support their freedoms.
Driscoll stated, “The content of my postings to that discussion board does not reflect how I feel, or how I would conduct myself today,”
Lip service.
Remember, it was only two years ago, in 2012 that Driscoll insulted the British church with remarks such as, “preachers need to become more like drill sergeants if they are to attract young men to church” and that young men will not go to church so long as there are “guys in dresses preaching to grandmas.”
He is expressing the same attitude as William Wallace II only minus the word p******** and other profanity. He had to keep it clean for the interview, sort of like a William-Wallace-II-gone-to-finishing-school.
My heartfelt sympathy goes out to the Caners, their family and friends, their church and to Braxton’s friends and school mates. This is a tragedy and my hope is that God will use it open the eyes of the church to bullying, and the need to take care of those who are depressed or in despair. May Jesus enfold Braxton in his arms and heal his wounded spirit.
In other news, James Macdonald has also resigned from the Mars Hill board.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/08/02/james-macdonald-resigns-from-mars-hill-board-update-on-paul-tripps-resignation/
Frankly, I’m really not surprised anymore about the abusive and acidic things that keep pouring from Mark Driscoll’s mouth. I feel incredibly sorry for the men, women and children that are being exposed to this warped view of God. Just listening to Mark makes me sick! It’s incredibly sad when you think about what he could’ve been instead of this hate-spewing, schoolyard bully.
There are two things I am now praying for (and I would encourage others to do the same) that one, nobody would be influenced by his teachings and two, that Mark Driscoll might repent for all of the pain and suffering he has caused (especially to his own family) and change his ways.
@ Sam:
Things are certainly starting to unravel for him. If he simply had a set of different attitudes I think he can be a force for good and I do pray for his repentance. If Saul can turn from persecutor to vanguard preacher Driscoll can turn around too. All things are possible with God. The question is, will Driscoll heed His correction?
Also, if Driscoll wanted to be taken seriously regarding his past comments, he really really should have put an apology in with his response. The fact that he doesn’t suggests he doesn’t see what’s wrong with his statements…
@ Wisdomchaser:
I am also praying for the Caner family. May they feel God’s love and find comfort during this difficult time.
@ Anna:
Agreed. Driscoll is a shock jock preacher. He wanted to get everyone’s attention, and by golly he has!
Sopwith wrote:
A parcel of *anonymous* former Martians WISH he were so good as to go!
To attempt to express it as you do:
“Da more things proverbially changes, da more dey proverbially stays da same,” (sad face)
In other news, *pastor* Turner begins his letter to the “full council of elders” with:
“From pastor Sutton Turner:
Men,
…”
May be part of the problem right there!
He continues (paraphrased)
Blah blah transition blah blah exhausting and consuming blah blah surprise to executive elders blah timing is challenging blah commitment to you men blah blah
Apparently *pastor* Turner is a bit confused about the timing bit, as well.
(If this guy is a real pastor, I’m a real aPostle)
@ Sam:
I will join you in praying for those two things.
Driscoll has an escape route, not an original one but a good one. He can take some time off due to “overwork and stress” and during that time he can be “diagnosed” with such and such medical/mental condition that would at least partly explain his prior actions. He could then come back and declare that “It wasn’t me, it was my now-diagnosed condition, but I am on meds and all better now, so please understand and forgive and I am so sorry if my condition hurt anybody, but how could you folks not possible understand and how could we not now just take up where we left off.”
He could even write a book series about it. His journey with such and such condition. His personal devotional diary that helped him during his difficulties due to such and such condition. The impact of such and such on his marriage. How to raise children in a home where daddy has such and such. The list goes on and on.
And, it might even be true. And it might even help people.
I don’t think Driscoll or others realize how their “manly men” bluster only makes them seem insecure. I highly recommend James Freeman Clarke’s essay on “True and False Manliness” to them as a primer:
“False manliness wishes to show its superiority by treating women as inferiors. It flatters them, but it does not respect them. It fears their competition on equal levels, and wishes to keep them confined, not within walls, as in the Mohammedan regions, but behind the more subtle barriers of opinion, prejudice, and supposed feminine aptitudes. True manliness holds out the hand to woman, and says, ‘Do whatever you are able to do; whatever God meant you to do. Neither you or I can tell what that is till all artificial barriers are removed, and you have full opportunity to try.'”
from Every-Day Religion, James Freeman Clarke, 1886.
http://books.google.com/books?id=h9b6adKSSd0C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=true+and+false+manliness+james+freeman+clarke&source=bl&ots=QUyzAoIOAc&sig=AlR4mlwWrytPn9aDKt1A57ocLQw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dP_cU5nUBuOV8QHyxoCIAg&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=true%20and%20false%20manliness%20james%20freeman%20clarke&f=false
@ Deb:
I don’t understand why shock jocks in any profession say outrageous and offensive things for attention, but are then annoyed when the audience is offended. Driscoll has no right to piss people off and then cry victimhood when people call him out on it.
I’m saddened to hear of Braxton Caner’s death. No matter what one thinks of his father, I echo the call for prayers for the family.
As for Mark Driscoll, he seems to have pulled off the rare feat of simultaneously being a misogynist and a misandrist. I could excuse his writings from 14 years ago if had become more mature and demonstrated a real willingness to change, but he hasn’t. Why is he still in the pulpit?
@ Pam: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: A hell of a lot of so-called strong preaching sounds just like the creepy drunk guy at the end of the bar downtown.
Maybe as William Wallace II, latest poster boy for Net Drunk Syndrome…
singleman wrote:
As in he hates everyone except Mark Driscoll?
Jenny Islander wrote:
Or “Net Drunk Syndrome”, when you let it all hang out because you’re anonymous behind an online pseudonym and safely out of fist range.
Caitlin wrote:
And then there’s the Strong Female Character(TM) version of this, where the female lead is a knockout Smurfette (i.e. female with name & dialog in an otherwise all-male main cast), not only supermodel gorgeous but hypercompetent in everything, outdoing all the men, who at the end of the flick (after Saving the Universe) ends up in bed with the nerdy audience self-insert making rinky-chow.
You want good strong female characters in media? Get the DVDs of the first two seasons of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Only show on the air that routinely aces the Bechdel Test.
Lisa wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— Sgt Schultz
Hester wrote:
Only if Can’t Stop the Music (i.e. the Village People Movie) isn’t on YouTube.
Doug wrote:
Neither will the Pastor-Dictator.
And the Universe cannot have two centers.
At the risk of dignifying Fiscal’s rant, a bit of analysis is in order.
““It all began with Adam, the first of the (egalitarian) nation, who kept his mouth shut and watched everything fall headlong down the slippery slide of hell/feminism when he shut his mouth and listened to his wife who thought Satan was a good theologian when he should have lead her and exercised his delegated authority as king of the planet.
As a result, he was cursed for listening to his wife and every man since has been…”
This is totally standard, party-line complementarian pulpit myth. Piper or Grudem could have written it. There is thin support, indeed for this myth in Genesis 3. In this myth, Adam kept his mouth shut and watched and listened. He was passive. He didn’t DO nuttin’. In truth, if Adam HAD kept his big mouth SHUT, he would not have eaten the fruit, and, in my untheological opinion, would never have fallen no matter how much Eve chomped. Of course, God didn’t curse Adam for listening to his wife– he cursed the GROUND for Adam listening to his wife and EATING the fruit– “desiring to be wise”.
One last thing– I almost forgot– it’s “he should have LED her”, Willie er — Park. L E D — past or perfect of the verb “to lead”– LED!
I should have write this sooner!!
Nancy wrote:
If I were free to do so, I’d take a road trip to Montana and give that person (not even going to call him a “preacher”) a piece of my mind. The guy did absolute WRONG in attacking Ergun Caner’s son. It’s evil behavior, the kind of stuff you’d see from my favorite example of a cult, Scientology.
Adults keep their arguments on topic and do not bring in extraneous persons. Adults do not bring children into their arguments, period. That’s apparently not what happened here.
Sam wrote:
What I’m about to say isn’t directed to you, Sam, as you went on to say that the things Mark says make you sick.
But the “not surprised anymore” statement reminded me of how many have become desensitized toward vulgarity and shock. Many years ago when the movie Jaws came out, I didn’t want my son to see it because of the advertised shocking publicity showing body parts floating in the water. I was aware of the process of desensitizing. He saw it anyway (unbeknownst to me) without my permission and later confessed. But what he said saddened me. He said, “mom, it didn’t bother me one bit!” That was my concern exactly.
Mark’s continued shocking statements and vulgarity has desensitized imo thousands of people who no are no longer able or who no longer wish to see it for what it is. Scary and sad at the same time.
EMR wrote:
Thank you so much for providing this link. Although the author wrote this in the 1800s, it felt as though he were directly addressing the misogyny that has sadly infiltrated many of our churches today.
“False manliness [does], what it chooses to do…[it] is cynical, contemptuous, and tyrannical to inferiors…[False manliness] imagines it to be manly to defy the law, to be independent of the opinions of the wise, to sneer at moral obligations,to consider itself superior to the established principles of mankind… False manliness is unfeeling, with no kindly sympathies, rude and rough and overbearing…False manliness is self-willed and self indulgent…False manliness wishes to show its superiority by treating women as inferiors…”
I don’t know if James Freeman Clarke was addressing issues he was seeing in the church, or just growing trends in society at large. Regardless, it was a bit eerie seeing how relevant his essay is today.
I don’t know if any of the Mars Hill protesters will read here, but may I commend to you the story of the persistent widow (Luke 18:1-8). You will need that kind of persistence to bring change to Mars Hill. You will have to make up your minds that you will do what it takes to keep yourselves in front of Mark Driscoll, to be the rock in his shoe, as it were, for as long as it takes. And it could take years.
When I got involved in protesting Scientology back in 1995, I had no idea that nearly 20 years later it would still be a going concern. I was naive. But, on the other hand, I have seen Scientology go from being a feared organization, courted by the US government, to an organization whose secret doctrines are the punch lines to jokes on late night US TV. And elsewhere. In some ways, I’ve been more than successful in what I’ve set out to do. Yet, Scientology continues to harass its defectors, and until that stops, the pressure has to stay on.
Those of you who take on Mars Hill, I can only hope that it ends sooner for you all (and hopefully because of the speed of light of the Internet), but be aware and take counsel that you may need to be in this for the long haul.
mirele wrote:
Oh, mirele! Just two days ago I watched a program on Investigative Discovery about Nancy Many’s 20+ yr. journey in Scientology and what she and her husband went through trying to leave. I was appalled at the things that organization did to control their members. It’s on-line in the Dangerous Persuasions series. I’m so glad you were able to leave without injury, but Nancy Many had an emotional breakdown in her effort to leave. Hopefully the things she exposed will be of help to others.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
My Little Pony is probably the best example of female to female interaction on TV.
Your point about the Smurfette Strong Women is a good one. What I want to know is where are the representations for women who are not all that exemplary? In reality, that’s most of us. There are stories of sexual success for many types of men, from the macho alpha to the nerdy Nice Guy, and sexual success for hot super women but what about average gals?
One TV show that goes against the flow of man-wins-girl is The Inbetweeners. It doesn’t pass the Bechdel Test as women are secondary characters on the show but there is a humour in how close the “loser” guys get to getting laid but never quite achieve it. And despite the female characters being secondary, they’re realistically written.
singleman wrote:
$$$$ power $$$$ privilege $$$$
mirele wrote:
I just skimmed the Prairie Dog *Preacher*’s post and comments– horrid, horrid stuff. So tragic. Reminds me of Mahaney’s alleged blackmail of Tomczak. A tragic warning for all of us to keep on the high road with those we dislike and leave their minor children the hell alone. Thank you Debbie Kaufman and others for standing up against Prairie Dog *”Preacher*”‘s idea of “addressing” a 15 YO’s “public sin”. I see they took the post down now, but fail to see any mention of the suicide. PDP was in my city recently speaking at a conference at my former church along with my former friend/pastor. I’m embarrassed.
@ Dave A A:
And apparently this is not the first time he had a go around with some preacher’s kid, according to one of the links I followed. This will all come out to see what the specific and accurate and comprehensive story is.
Not forgetting to pray for the Petrys as well.
__
“Seattle Seminary Siren’s Searing Sexist Snippets, Seeping From Da Deep, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
With MD’s continued access to Resurgence and Acts 29, many give pause to concerns that his viral ‘anti-female’ spin on religion risk spreading this very toxic prejudicial religious cancer ‘elsewhere’ throughout the body of Christ…
In fact there are signs of it.
The nefarious use of religion to enable the subjugation of women, by the impressionable masses of church men is appalling and quite alarming.
His harsh scornful derogatory, and uncomplimentary use of language with severely negative connotations that disparage and belittle women…
What?
The ‘beat’ goes on?
Women and their-impressionable children should exit this 501(c)3 ‘religious’ organization quickly and expressively, leaving this proverbial possibly pathological paradoxically pastoral pulpit ‘bolt’ with his proverbial broken ‘bucket’ of bolts…
The “If I get da men, I get everything”, thingy isn’t exactly fooling everyone these dayz…
‘Fight Club’ flame out?
could b.
Q. ‘This’ individual is one of Christ’s ‘disciples’ and fervent ‘followers’?
huh?
(could have fool’d me)
glug!, glug!
SKreeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
Krash!
What utter blatant disrespect for the Word of God.
…best lay off da proverbial KoolAid, huh?
*
Da blind leading da blind: can da proverbial ‘ditch’ be far away?
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Comic relief: Last Action Hero- “Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQ3pbMzadw
;~)
—
@ Nancy:
Is it too much to hope that a heartfelt apology will be forthcoming? I suppose so. Sigh.
Sopwith wrote:
Because of his language (which he rarely uses in public, now that he’s changed) most of his celeb associates have distanced themselves– and two more are doing so right now. But the substance remains the same. They also disparage and belittle women– using flowery language filled with multiplying adjectives and nice smooth respectful complimentary nice niceties.
Jenny Islander wrote:
That is a perfect description of these guys! How anyone can listen the garbage being spewed out, in the name of God no less, and think these ‘preachers’ are sane and give them their money is inexplicable. I’m amazed sometimes that the human race has survived this long.
__
“Give Dem MarzHil Folks Spiritual Steam, Perhaps?”
Dave , you wrote:
“Da more things proverbially changes, da more dey proverbially stays da same, (sad face)”
*
hmmm…
“We just need a little child to show that the emperor has no clothes” ~ Marie2, Wartburg Watch
hmmm…
♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ hum, hum, hum…MarzHil Church a nosedive?
Hold your breath, pray at least for five!
Backslap, boobytrap,
Coverup MD’s mistakes in bubblewrap,
Sanctuary shake, earthquake,
Find a way to maintain da fake?
What?!?
Stand Back?
This Christian scene, it’s going to blow, it’s going to break? [1]
could b.
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Inspirational Relief: Fernando Ortega- “Give Me Jesus”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu2E2FUcIiE
[1] Adapted. Peter Gabriel – “Steam” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1bMpke0yVs
lyrics © EMI Music Publishing, Universal Music Publishing Group, Disclaimer: parody adaptation, U.S. title 17 fair use; all rights reserved; copyright infringement unintended.
;~)
—
Caitlin wrote:
yes, and yes to all of your comment.Prize for most overt misogny goes to The Vampire Diaries. I remember thinking that an early teen would be watching and absorbing this without any filters. Scary. This stuff is subconsciously very powerful.
@ Doug:
I believe your accusation that Driscoll’s ministry is all about him is slanderous and demonstrably untrue. You need to repent of breaking the 9th commandment (Ex. 20:16).
I agree with Driscoll’s comments. And with all the problems the church has today — for example, Warren Throckmorton lying about John Piper “calling out Driscoll” (which he never did) — I find your obsession with tearing down Driscoll indicative of a problem with you.
By the way, do you have any idea whatsoever who made the original “Wartburg” famous and what he (and his rhetoric) were like? Martin Luther would make Driscoll look like a pus— , uh, a sissy.
Grow up.
@ Caitlin:
I think you’re thinking of Elliott Rodger. What Lanza did was awful, but AFAIK it had nothing to do with gender issues, feminism/antifeminism or MRAs.
Jessica wrote:
I thought so too.
__
“Shiver Me Timbers: What Lingo MD Doth Coil and Belay�”
“But the substance remains the same.” ~ Dave A A
hmmm…
Wipe da ‘dust’ from thy proverbial ‘sandals’, friend…
…juz rememba,
Jesus’ house is still a rock’in, don’t bother knock’in, juz come on it…
(grin)
Gloria in excelsis Deo !
“Gr8’r is He dat is within us den he that is in da proverbial MarzHil pulpit…”
(smiley face goes here)
-Grin-
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Mac N’ Third Day – “O Holy Night”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKX3eyYuJ9c
Comic relief: Stevie Ray Vaughan – “The House Is Rockin’ ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFWw1w-vT2Y
;~)
—
Dave A A wrote:
Seriously, can we talk about this?
Mark Driscoll hates and despises women. That’s really at bottom. I’m not sure WHY, but his rhetoric over the years makes it clear that he really thinks we are lower than low. He finds his rationale in the story of the creation, failing to see it for the greater truth that it is about humanity.
But I read the William Wallace stuff (as much as I could, a couple of pages) and I’ve read excerpts from “Real Marriage.” In all of that, I don’t get any sense of respect for who women are. And I came away from all of this feeling sad for Grace Driscoll and having fear for Grace and the girl children in the Driscoll household, wondering how they must survive in an environment where they’re crushed down daily because of Eve’s sinfulness.
I’ve got to stop thinking of this, it just makes my heart hurt. I see so much damage because of this real fear and hatred of women. Why? I don’t understand why Mark Driscoll sees women as this huge threat?!??!?!!?
mirele wrote:
Driscoll wants to quote the creation story to justify his hatred of women. So what about the creation story would explain this hatred of women? Well, there was that statement about “I will put enmity between you and the woman…” Of course, that was not addressed to Adam but rather to…to…oops.
@ mirele: He also hates and despises gay men and men whom he assumes are gay.
He has never really apologized for any of the controversies he’s created in the past, and I doubt he will do so now.
I fear for his wife and children, and for the women and children who are in MH and Acts29 “churches.” (Cults, I think, is a more accurate term in this case.)
The emotional and psychological (and likely physical) damage caused by this man is *huge.* That *anyone* would consider MD a fit candidate for the clergy – then or now – is unconscionable.
He seems to have serious mental health issues, and at this point, even if he does seek treatment, the damage he’s done to others isn’t going to go away.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
@ Nancy: Much like the KKK and Aryan Nations selectively quote the Bible to “justify” their hatred toward non-white people, Jewish people, etc.
Driscoll follows the same playbook.
@ numo:
Same evil source behind it, I am thinking.
Anna wrote:
Yes the tweets are very telling. I can tell that most of those boyz were raised believing that they are on the axis vector of the world. They were never taught what NO means, what STOP means, and that meanness and cruelty of any type is unacceptable. I’ll wager too that they were probably very late in learning not to crap their diapers.
@ Nancy: Myself, I think most of it comes from human evil. We don’t need to blame Satan for what’s already in our hearts and minds, but it sure is convenient sometimes, isn’t it? (*Not* saying you were meaning that or would ever agree with MD or the Klan or whatever… just that it’s so tempting to over-spiritualize things, and I don’t think it’s the case here. That he has mental health issues, I don’t doubt for a second, but then, so does anyone who expresses such pathological hatreds.)
@ numo: And I am most definitely *not* citing mental illness as an excuse.
No matter if he seeks treatment or not, and if he follows it or not; so much damage has already been done. There’s a way for him to change now, but no way to get back what was hurt and destroyed through his words and actions.
Driscoll reminds me of that controversial commedian, Andrew Dice Clay. Not William Wallace (at least as portrayed in the movie!)
I am now officially a “fan” of Ergun Caner with regard to this situation.
Any family that sustains this type of tragedy needs lots of love and encouragement.
I am interested in the facts, to the extent they can be shared.
But regardless of the factual scenario, the Body of Christ should do its best to express love to this family.
John wrote:
New troll or Poe? You decide!
Sopwith wrote:
Thank you for this. It’s very healing.
Darcyjo wrote:
I think another person who can’t articulate his thoughts without making a gendered insult (“sissy” = “sister”) because he doesn’t actually have any reasonable thoughts. If you have a problem with a person being inappropriately passive and indecisive and not having standards and so on, it looks like you could say so without stupid rhetoric like this. (And women also shouldn’t be inappropriately passive and indecisive and not have standards. I’ve challenged several people who talked this macho crap to tell me any characteristic of a “real man” that would not also be a characteristic that a woman should aspire to, and they’ve never been able to do it. What they’re calling manliness is simply maturity.)
@ Darcyjo:
I don’t know what a Poe is, so…troll?
In other news, I’ve just found out that Christian Dubstep is a thing. 😀
John wrote:
Maybe you should be in contact with Driscoll and help him figure out what be needs to repent of. . . which commandments? Contrary to what he claims, he appears to have a discernment problem.
I’m no so sure boasting about Luther’s crassness helps any either. Just because Luther did ‘something’ doesn’t make it good and acceptable.
Sopwith wrote:
One of my favorites. Thank you Sopwith!
@ Victorious: One of my favorites, too!
@Darcyjo, Poe=POS..? Something a cowboy steps in. In any case, POE/POS=troll. Go bait others elsewhere, John.
Here is a song dedication to those who will be protesting at Mars Hill. Did they get burned by their pastor?
http://rare.us/story/a-cappella-group-re-imagines-johnny-cashs-ring-of-fire-and-its-mind-blowing/
Deb wrote:
Hey Deb…one of those guys sings with the Pentatonics! They became one of my favorite groups after you posted them before Christmas last year singing the Little Drummer Boy! Loved the Johnny Cash tune btw!
Poe’s law refers to the fact that sometimes you can’t tell if somebody’s trolling. You can read a comment so extreme and weird that you think they have GOT to be kidding, but they’re serious. If you don’t “know” the commenter and they don’t give you some reason to think they’re being sarcastic, you really can’t tell. Because there’s nothing so extreme that somebody, somewhere, won’t seriously assert it.
Victorious wrote:
Yes, I remember that song we posted around Christmas time. What talent!
@ Laura:
Laura,
No reasoned arguments? Really? Did you miss the fact that I pointed out that this site is ironically named after a place made famous by Martin Luther who used rhetoric that would make Driscoll blush. The people here are only fans of Luther because they are separated by centuries from the controversies he was dealing with. It’s called hypocrisy.
@ Nancy:
Except you can’t prove that he hates women. You all keep stating that over and over again and apparently think that substitutes as proof. Meanwhile, there’s still a commandment against bearing false witness — you might ought to remind yourselves of it.
Anonymous wrote:
Andrew Dice Clay has a cleaner mouth.
John
We know that you are a major fan of Driscoll.So, hypocrisy in your world is anything that is an inconvenient truth.
John
Driscoll has deep seated issues, one of which is women. He nees help.
@ John:
John, hold your comment up to your mirror. Go read the commandment yourself, cause you are not living up to it. It is a law and I know the law.
John
They are dropping like flies off the BOAA. Driscoll owes you big time for your service in all seasons. Maybe you could get yourself an appointment.
John, Driscoll’s words and actions speak for themselves. And if you agree with what he said, then I can only conclude that you too have contempt for women.
When did Dr. Throckmorton lie about Driscoll? It seems to me that all of his concerns have been well documented in multiple sources, including Mars Hill spokespeople admitting that he was right, for example, about Driscoll using church money to game the system and get his book on the best seller list. Another example is the use of Global Funds for church planting in the US.
And of course it is a fact that the by laws were changed in 2007 to consolidate Driscoll’s power and that he fired two well-loved pastors for objecting to the bylaw change.
Why are you attracted to Driscoll?
@ John:
John, there are extensive examples of Driscoll’s negative, dismissive, demeaning, and abusive comments towards and about women. He’s blamed women when their husbands had affairs, he questions the wives of his elders about their sex lives, he wrote damn near a whole book talking about what a horrible sl*t his wife was and how he shouldn’t have married her, he describes feminism as satanic, he says wives are commanded to do whatever their husbands want in the bedroom, he uses terms like p*ssified as an insult suggesting that the worst thing for a man is to be at all like a woman, and so much more. I’ve heard him speak once, and despite the audience of close to 10,000 being half women, he spent 90% of the time talking exclusively to men, 9% of the time talking to everyone, and the 1% he spoke to us women was when he asked the single women to put up their hands if they want to get married some time and told the single men to man up and marry us so that the men can become proper adults. So the one time he spoke to women it was only in the context of personal development for men. All of this is from his own mouth. Hardly bearing false witness to recount this and point out the clear thread of anger towards women.
Oopsies, my response to John went into moderation. Is it somewhat telling that recounting Driscoll’s anti-woman history put me foul of the language sensors?
@ Victorious:
Pentatonix won “Sing Off” in 2011 and “Home Free” won last year. I love them both. 🙂
@ Darcyjo:
John is a disturbed man. He posts frequently at Throckmorton’s blog. He is not interested in sincere dialogue.
My recommendation is to not feed the troll.
@ John:
William Wallace II, I presume?
numo wrote:
Because Gay means there are men who might do to him what he does to a woman.
Plus it blurs the rigid dividing line between MALE and (ugh) female which is a Fundamental Law of God and Nature to him.
@ Sopwith:
+1 for the Peter Gabriel parody. Best artist ever.
@ Deb:
@ Nancy:
I just read up and found out what happened to Braxton. That is just sick, what happened to him from that preacher. I feel so, so bad for his family and for him. I have no words, and the world is a little darker today.
John wrote:
Nancy, One thing you learn about dealing with guys in that movement is their standard of proof is what they declare is the standard of proof: An impossible standard. In other words, Driscoll would have to publicly declare he hates women in order for it to meet their standard of “proof”.
In their world, we cannot go by many years of words out of Mark’s own mouth, his books or his behavior.
Remember, they have listened to Driscoll more than most of us have and did not see the glaring problem. (I have been following his vulgarity since he was mentioned in Blue Like Jazz)
Driscoll is a text book case. His problems concerning gender issues are glaring for anyone not wrapped up in that bubble. There were many years I thought that segment of Christendom had lost its collective mind.
And worse, his DNA is all over ACTS29 which has infiltrated so many denominations including the SBC (Gee thanks, Ed Setzer) who have partially funded many ACTS29 churches. Now the SBC pastors and seminarians who were promoting Mark a few years ago are pretending, “Mark who”?
Even the local big Acts 29 here, Sojourn, left Acts 29 and pretends Driscoll never had any influence on them. Yet, former MH highly paid staff people came to work for them as they were forced out of MH!
It has been interesting to watch the same Mark bandwagon guys who make their living in ministry now try to pretend Mark had no influence on them. Not long ago, Mark was the answer for them.
@ Lydia:
It is hard to believe that people do like that, and even harder to believe that anybody pays any attention it to. These people sound like children throwing temper tantrums while thinking that “tis too” makes something true if it is simply repeated enough times.
I keep coming back to the discomfiting thought that there are, however, people who listen to these people and who seem to be convinced by it. Apparently until it is they themselves who get run over by the bus. The testimony of those who wise up and stand up against this mess is inspiring; it must be difficult for them to do.
@ Nancy:
@ Nancy:
“to it” of course, not “it to”
And while I am at it, there was a book from some time back called “When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.” It is about people’s manipulative techniques and how to free oneself and effectively ward off manipulative attacks. I found it very useful. One manipulative technique is, and I use my own words, “you can’t convince me” based of course on the assumption that the person will keep on trying until they surrender in exhaustion. The best thing to do is to recognize early on that indeed you can’t convince the other person and don’t try. Don’t give reasons, just let them keep trying to lure you into the trap until they themselves are the ones who get worn out and give it up or move on.
For example, if “John” and his buddies are able to entice people into getting into arguments with them, then they will have succeeded in diverting people’s energies away from the prime directive which is, if I may reference the parable of the sower and the seed, to tell the truth while some listen and some do not. It does not matter into which category “John” and his buddies fall, that is God’s concern. But it does matter that he not be allowed to divert the mission, that is our concern.
__
“A Religious ‘Face-Off’, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Pastor Mark Driscoll is the “face” of Christianity for Mars Hill churche(s). Does that ‘face’ reflect Jesus, or some other?
Paul, the Apostle said: ” Follow me as I follow Christ. Paul set forth a standard of what it was to follow Jesus.
Yep.
How has pastor Mark Driscoll meaured up to the standard that Apostle Paul set forth?
Given what is known of him(MD), would the Apostle Paul, give pastor Mark Driscoll a free pass, a clean bill of health? Would his behavior, attitude , and conduct be acceptable according to the standard he, Apostle Paul diligently set forth?
How can Pastor Mark Driscoll represent ‘Christ’ to the kind and faithfully dovoted members of the Mars Hill church(s) when his behavior, viewed, – apparently neither matches Paul’s example, nor other fine example(s) found in the rest of the new testament?
Do the men that follow Mark Driscoll get to give paster Mark, a free conduct pass?
If Paster Mark can not be held to any semblence of Apostle Paul’s standard, how can this pastor (MD) even begin to hold up any type of standard ‘anyone’ would be willing to follow?
What?
A standard of: “do as I say, and not as I do” ?
huh?
What’s up with that?
I am reminded that the scriptures refer to a day in which little soundness in pastorial leadership would be found.
Has that “day” arrived for the Mars Hill Church, and its various locations?
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Shara Mckee – “A Promise Coming Down That Dusty Road…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXHRjrkcdBw
🙂
—
Sopwith wrote:
Indeed so.
Albuquerque
My post on the matter will be on Tuesday. This must not ever happen again.
Lydia wrote:
Hi all – This will be my first comment on TWW. I’ve been reading through this site thoroughly for a few months, to include commentary. You have each been an asset to me, on this journey of “seeing the forest for the trees.”
As my husband and I have been attending a church within the Acts 29 network (thankfully not official members), many more questions than answers have arisen for me. I can completely relate to the above comment as I’ve seen it in our own “church.” It has now become “Mark who?” Or, “we are not Mars Hill.” Or, “Mark Driscoll hasn’t been a part of Acts 29 in a couple of years.” Distancing themselves…they can’t take the heat so they’re getting out of the kitchen. Ha. But, I say, where were y’all while the mess of MD/MH/Acts 29 was going down for at least 14 years? Why are you STILL promoting his materials (question directed toward my church)? Don’t you see, just because Acts 29 is no longer directly linked to MD/MH his DNA is all over it?!
Welcome, Melissa!
John wrote:
When there is lack of worthwhile news to report newspapers often resort to including outlandish articles to keep reader interest. In the newspaper business it is known as the “silly season.” Here on TWW the modus operandi is to drag out stories about Mark Driscoll (even if they are 14 years old) to keep the troops fired up.
@ Melissa:
We are so glad you are chiming in! There are churches in our area that were closely tied to Mark Driscoll, as well as seminary leaders. There were Boot Camps and conferences that heavily promoted Driscoll. Several years ago a messenger at the SBC annual meeting made a motion affirming ‘Big Papa D’ with a rap.
The silence coming from these Driscoll promoters is deafening!
Now that I’m on a rant, I am angry that my daughter was required to purchase books written by Mark Driscoll in order to serve in a leadership position with Campus Crusade for Christ when she was in college.
I was not happy about it five years ago, and I am really mad about it now!
Deb wrote:
Something similar happened at my parent’s church. While we weren’t required, we were “highly encouraged” to buy “Real Marriage” as our leaders did a four week sermon/series based off the book. This really surprised me as it is not affiliated with Acts 29.
NotJohn
And some trolls resort to pretending they are someone else in order to build some negative comments. Is this a Mars Hill learned response? Truthiness in action? Fear that Mars Hill is losing thier base so you have to make up a base?
@ Jessica:
That’s even worse! What are these church leaders thinking???
mirele wrote:
Maybe it was the neighborhood.
Of his childhood, Driscoll said, “There were multiple strip clubs, seedy massage parlors, and hourly rate motels down the street from my home. The prostitutes walked the streets openly and were brazen enough to even walk up and knock on my car window.”
He was about 12 when Gary “Green River” Ridgway was brazen enough to even drive up and get some of them to knock on his car window.
@ Deb:
I have no idea, but I have wondered if they were going to stop offering his books in light of his most recent controversy.
John wrote:
One can be a fan of an historical figure without being in lockstep with everything said figure wrote. I think Neecha (Nietzsche) had some great things to say but I don’t agree with all. How does that qualify as hypocrisy?
Mr.H wrote:
Ah, he’s a troll. Thanks, buddy.
Some thoughts for John, NotJohn, and any Unsure-Semi-John types who might be out there in the TWW readership …
I first heard Mark Driscoll preach in person in 1997 — how about you? How long have you been tracking the teachings, actions, and influences of Mr. Driscoll?
If what Mr. Driscoll said 14 years ago in his “William Wallace II” forum postings were only a single snapshot of aberrant beliefs or behaviors, we could (and probably should) just brush it off — even though he was not exactly a youth when he did this. However, if these postings prove to be yet another snapshot in a very long line of actions that demonstrate the patterns of his true character, then there’s every reason to bring it up as an early example, keep it in mind, and tie it in with similar snapshots that line up with this one from the turn of the millennium.
Mr. Driscoll may never see himself as misogynistic and say so. But, in my opinion, his actions over a very long period of time demonstrate some apparently deep-seated problems with women. Start looking at the evidence that Mr. Driscoll himself has offered to date, and it seems to me that the form of showing his beliefs may have changed and tempered somewhat. However, the essential trajectory seems the same. I suspect that, if he said and did today in a business situation what eye-witnesses verify from the mid-2000s to the present that he has said and done, he would undoubtedly at least receive warnings for creating a “hostile work environment,” if not being fired for probable “sexual harassment.” The proof provided by his own communications and behaviors would be putting the business at risk. And that’s not really so different for Mars Hill; as a co-founder of Mars Hill and its current lead pastor, he can put the entire enterprise at risk. And, my conclusion is that his actions over a long period have made Mars Hill Church into a seriously sick environment for ministry that causes harm at least as much as it reportedly helps.
That’s part of what the peaceful protest at the Ballard Mars Hill today is about — to tell the watching world that Mr. Driscoll needs to take note of the irresponsible and destructive impact he’s had on specific people. Those whom he has allegedly harmed are not anonymous. And, according to a growing number of online accounts published, a steady stream of witnesses has tried at least since 2007 to confront him and ask for him to change his harmful ways and reconcile with those he’s victimized.
So far, he has mostly issued occasional apologies that are, at best, vague. But still, the line of evidence of negative impact continues. Repentance is a change of direction. What evidence is there other than a series of micro-mea-culpas of genuine shifts of direction and deep transformation in what has been a long-time stream of problems? These include, in my assessment, patterns of vulgar communications, provocative and sometimes apparently unethical actions to stay in the limelight, overlording actions to put subordinates in their place, leading in the lack of true corporate transparency and independent accountability as required of any tax-exempt non-profit AND every ECFA member. Those opinions can be supported with lists of specific incidents, documents, published personal accounts, etc.
I know my reading of the factual evidence is incomplete, and my analysis surely contains gaps to fill in and excesses to file off. So, I’m willing to read your evidence in the opposite direction. Can you produce compelling documentation and witness verification to what you see as long-term constructive changes in Mr. Driscoll’s behaviors? How is he no longer living out a “William Wallace II” approach to women, men, family, etc. these days? Do you have factual evidence that those who say they’ve experienced harm under his ministry are not telling the full truth? Where are your comparisons of his current character status to the biblically mandated requirements for elders and others who serve in such public roles of leadership? And how does all of this support your apparent contention that Mr. Driscoll is currently qualified — not disqualified — for public leadership roles in the church and in the Church?
But, if you don’t have that kind of long-term evidence compiled, and haven’t made those discerning comparisons with the biblical mandates, I find it quite remarkable and irresponsible that you seem to believe you can simply pooh-pooh those who do, or even label us as telling lies. These are snapshots you are giving others to use in evaluating the patterns of your own character …
@ Jessica:
Real Marriage was being promoted on SBC pastors blogs like SBCVoices not long ago. Now it is like “Mark who” on those type of blogs. Why can’t they just admit they promoted him and that they should have had more discernment? That would be more credible than pretending like he no longer exists.
@ Melissa:
Melissa, the Acts 29 DNA church here which made a big to do about leaving Acts 29 and starting their very own church planting network, Sojourn, heavily recruits members. They are about as bad as the JW’s and Mormons in tactics, trolling neighborhoods to get folks to change churches.
I was approached last year by a mom at my child’s game. I told her I could have nothing to do with anything Driscoll or Acts 29 but she had the spiel down pat: We are not Acts 29 and have nothing to with Mark Driscoll. I honestly don’t think she knew as much as I did about the history and she was just saying what they are told to say if it comes up. I felt sorry for her. People have no clue what is going on.
I told her as lovingly as possible that Driscoll trained her leaders, several former MH execs are now even working there and his DNA is all over that place and no way would I let my kids be influenced there. I think that Driscoll’s influence is horrible for both young boys AND girls.
On a side note: One of the most bizarre aspects of Driscoll is that his vulgarity tends to protect him in many instances. It is almost impossible to “quote” him in civilized company which would include many churches. So how would I tell 80 year old Miss Mildred at church why we would not want to hire a MH/Driscoll YRR type youth pastor? She is not on the internet. So how do we go about that?
Lydia wrote:
My guess is their pride gets in the way.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Anybody have any news concerning how that protest went?
Mara wrote:
Mefferd has been tweeting pics of it.
Just on a lark, I took a look at the Acts 29 directory. One thing that stood out was the existence of several churches with the word ‘presbyterian’ in them. In fact, one of them is just over the river in Cincinnati, OH. I couldn’t find any church name on the list with the word baptist, methodist, lutheran…you get the idea. According to the Acts29 website they believe in having elders; but where are their presbyteries?
It got me wondering if this movement came entirely out of Mars Hill or if it is actually parasitic on churches from a variety of existing denominations, kind of like the family integrated church movement?
__
“Freedom!”
hmmm…
Darkness falls across the MarzHil church the judgement hour close at hand,
Galant members with ballard courtyard placards pace in search of long sought justice,
Mark the Driscoll’s end of religious vulgarity,
The scepter moves to a more faithful man.
***
Q. Will the ‘real’ William Wallace…please stand up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hce-Xvp1gm8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjbMeqgiX4Y
(grin)
Sopy
—
Lydia wrote:
doubleplusunperson has been Purged from history.
Just as is done at Mars Hill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
@ Darcyjo:
Seconding Mr. H – definitely a troll. He’s also a one-line troll because he seems to always open with an accusation of bearing false witness.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
The biblical evidence is compiled every time PastorMark preaches the true word of scripture from the word of God in the biblical Bible. He is an anointed biblical preacher of God’s truth; your absurd diatribe proves that you just can’t stand before the searing light of God’s biblical truth as faithfully proclaimed and taught by Pastor Mark as he faithfully teaches the pure truth of God’s word from the scriptures. Anyone who disagrees with him should be silent, as the scriptures themselves teach.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Your vile and slanderous gossiping against Pastor Mark merely provides yet more conclusive proof of how desperately the world needs the anointed and faithful biblical bible-teaching of Pastor Mark. All of these so-called “witnesses” are only witnessing of the pride, hate and sinfulness of their father the devil. May the biblical truth from the biblical bible shine out from Pastor Mark as he biblically confronts these sinners and preaches the biblical truth to them!
It is sad and wicked that so many people slander Pastor Mark, but I know he is a faithful man of God who is faithful to biblical truth. That is why I agree with him when he biblically confronts them with such biblical humility and grace. And the facts prove that everyone who criticises Pastor Mark is a liar. The biblical scriptures declare that it is impossible for God to lie, and Pastor Mark has said himself that he wants to follow Jesus and love Jesus. This proves that he is a man of God and so it is God speaking through Pastor Mark and he cannot lie.
As for Martin Luther, Driscoll fans may want to make note of this Luther quote. Remember Driscoll’s take on stay-at-home dads?
@ Hester:
Need a ‘like’ button for that one.
@ NotJohn:
@ John:
I am pleased to stand with both of my fellow Johns as they smack down all of you wussies, sissies and feminists. You are all slanderers and in violation of the command not to beareth false witness unto thy neighbour’s ass. The vile hatred of God’s faithful and true witness, PastorMark, just shows what happens when women are in charge.
If any of you had any discernment you would recognise that PastorMark is God’s own anointed representative to pilot the aircraft of his kingdom and to keep God’s sheep on mission under the bus.
@ Hester:
Er – are you sure that’s an authentic Luther quote? The phrase “washes diapers”, juxtaposed against 16th-century Europe, is causing my urban-myth-sense to tingle somewhat. Though I realise it may just be a dynamically-equivalent translation of something that Luther did indeed write.
NJ wrote:
I know Acts 29 only plants “Reformmed” churches and the SBC has funded Acts 29 starts ups through NAMB. Most of those types don’t put “Baptist” in their name. For example, Sojourn, an Acts 29 here funded by the SBC does not have “baptist” anywhere but the staff are pretty much from SBTS or MH.
How these Acts 29 are funded with SBC tithe dollars and how many– no one seems to know because NAMB does not seem to break it down. However, some of them are still sending me emails for money because they got my name off an SBC roll somewhere. SBC pew sitters give money for missions and church plants through something called the cooperative program.
Wonder if they are told Acts 29 is only for Reformed? My experience is NO, they don’t. They are catching on slowly.
dee wrote:
Trust all you feminists to mock the godly men of the BOAA for dropping their flies.
Like I said: that’s what happens now that the world is run by women.
Locked in the John
Too funny. The stand of the Johns!
@ NotJohn:
Yes, you’re right. And in this case it’s mostly generalities based on subjective impressions. They don’t like Driscoll and so they declare him to hate women and to be obscene, etc., in the hopes that if enough of them say it frequently enough, it will become true. And then, of course, there are the out-right lies, such as when Warren Throckmorton falsely stated in a head-line that John Piper “called out” Driscoll when in fact he didn’t even mention Driscoll. To fair minded people, that would disqualify Throckmorton from being taken seriously, at least until he repents, apologies and explains what caused him to break the 9th commandment like that. But to those suffering from Discroll-Derangement Syndrome here, they don’t care about that.
The mystery is why so many love to hate Driscoll. He’s orthodox theologically and hasn’t had any moral failures. So why the hate? I think there are two major factors: (1) Driscoll exudes a sense of authority and the rebellious despise any hint that there is an authority higher than themselves; and (2) he bluntly condemns sexual immorality; likely many of these Driscoll haters have some kind of sexual immorality they want to justify.
@ dee:
Well, I’m glad somebody decided to out-Poe the Johns. There is no way of knowing who “LockedInThe John” really is, but it looks as though he has great hair. Who knows? Next time some of the Fiscal Surplus thread-bomb one of your posts, perhaps we will once again hear that voice of reason and sanity echoing from within the John.
John Carpernter
I see you on lots of blogs. You are truly a one trick pony.
You marginalize people with your “Driscoll Derangement Syndrome.” Use a thesaurus to sound a but more clever. We are nuts and you, of course, are wise.
Here is why no one listens to you. You have a right to your opinion. But, you never, ever express concern for those deeply hurt by Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. If you expressed an ounce of compassion, you might make some inroads. But, keep it up. You may be one of the few out there who support him. That is probably worth a position on the BOAA. I would apply if I were you.
But, keep it real. Too much of the hater nonsesne, DDS, and other assorted rantings will get you moved into slooooooooow moderation.
John wrote:
But wait!? Aren’t the above “generalities based on subjective impressions”?
(wink)
M. Joy wrote:
According to a recent Pulpit and Pen broadcast of JD Hall where he laments over the recent downgrade of Mark Driscoll, he stated that Mark was a pastor that he very much looked up to in his formative years as a Christian. This is the program, just past the 17 minute mark where he laments about Driscoll.
@ Lydia:
Not so when you believe you are the judge and jury of truth . . .
What is the connection between Driscoll and SBC, if any? Does Driscoll call himself a baptist of some sort? If not, what does he call himself?
Nancy wrote:
Acts 29–which Driscoll started is the main connection. Ed Stetzer, employee of LifeWay, was on Acts 29 Board– not sure if he is still or not. Now Matt Chandler (SBC sort of) is President of Acts 29 last time I looked.
….and the fact that many YRR SBC pastors wanted to be just like him for years. Probably not now, though. :o) He was promoted heavily in Calvinist SBC circles for many years.
@ Bridget:
My bad. I keep forgetting. :o)
@ Lydia:
Aha. So the very boys who were trying to undercut so many SBC churches (sheep stealing on the one hand and infiltration on the other) now have this to deal with. I suppose nobody told them that actions have consequences. All this and SGM, too. Well, well.
John wrote:
This is straight up false.
He is a good orator. However, his accuracy at handling the Bible is horrible. He makes it say what he wants it to say rather than doing the hard work of studying it to show himself approved.
His moral failings are well documented. Get a clue.
It’s not hate. People are tired of seeing both the Bible and people trampled by Driscoll’s ego and ambition.
@ John:
And example of Mark Driscoll taking God’s Name in vain by claiming to speak for Him when Driscoll says the Jesus COMMANDS women to give their husbands oral.
This is a moral failing and a misuse of office. Plus he bases this so-called ‘command’ on how his wrong interpretation of the Bible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8sNVDyW-ws&feature=youtu.be
This is just one example.
His peasant princess series is full of his wrong doctrine.
Many SBC churches are not Calvinist , but are conservative evangelical, even fundamentalist. Even with complementarian within the church, these churches haven’t made it doctrine that a man can’t work for a female boss in the secular world, or that woman can’t work outside the home. An example would be Jerry Falwell whose daughter is a surgeon. These Neo Calvinists, such as Driscoll or his buddy Piper, would probably frown on women who are professional or in leadership roles in the secular realm. This is a difference between conservative evangelical SBC with Arminian sentiments and these Neo Calvinists. I may not agree with the conservative SBC leadership on all matters, but if I had to choose between the two factions, I would side with the Arminian faction. I am also concerned about Dominion theology I sense in Neo Calvinism and Puritanism. They want to take over. Non Calvinists SBC pastors should be concerned.
@ Hester: terrific quote. Could you post a link to the source and/or give us the title?
Many thank in advance, Hester!
nick Bulbeck wrote:
🙂 🙂
Nick– this whole out-Poeimg business can get confusing. And good, decent, generally wonderful real people will always “fall” for it. Even when someone calls Poe or troll or whatever. John, with last name and website, is a genuine person expressing what he really believes. Then John minus last name and website says similar-to-identical things. It’s likely still him– but might possibly be Edgar Allan. The Deebs can likely tell, but not the Daves.
Then NotJohn comments, He’s more likely a Poe and likely a drive-by, and sounds extraordinarily like Mr Wax-Jacket. Then Loched i’ comments– an’ were it nae for the great hair, we all might think he’s real!
Mara wrote:
Well, we KNOW what his “special preferences” are…
dee wrote:
“Locked in the John” doing WHAT?
Five-against-One?
John wrote:
This is bull ploppy. You suggest people don’t like Driscoll so they choose to twist his words. Incorrect. People hear his words (and see his actions) and dislike him because of what he says and does.
I also note you did not respond to my list of reasons why many of us argue that Driscoll hates women, nor to anyone else’s examples. Too scared to actually engage with the specific examples given to you because you know they prove you wrong?
Feleina
We shall discuss JD Hall's judgment in depth on Tuesday.
Nancy wrote:
Driscoll has quite a number of sycophants in the SBC. Here's a post we wrote a couple of years ago that may help answer your questions.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/06/25/big-papa-d-and-the-sbc/
And this video (which features a motion made at the SBC annual meeting four years ago) pretty much explains it… 😉
*
*
__
Church Newz: “Your
Pastoral Bad Behavior Tears Me Up?”
hmmm…
Ching! Ching!
ding, ding, ding, ding, Ding!
(profusely flashing lights)
(blink, blink, blink, blink…)
(announcer)
Mark Driscoll “WINS” ‘hands down’ the:
“You Gave Us A Bad Church Name” (TM) Award.
bonus!
…we are sure Mars Hill church is soooooo very proud!
proud, proud…
yeah, yeah,
*
huh?
“you make a once growing church cry…” (c)
[sob]
泣くことはないですか？ [1]
hmmm…
…cry, cry me an ocean, no use in hiding what is dying in thee…
(sadface)
Sopy
___
[1] tr. ‘Will not cry?’
intermission: “Tesla do not cry.” (テスラは泣かない。)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij4W4ySijBs
;~)
—
Lydia wrote:
Has it gotten that bad? I’ve been out of that place for awhile (many many months)
@ Deb:
Thanks. I was long gone from SBC et al before any of this happened. It can be confusing.
by the way, Sojourn is no longer officially part of Acts 29. They split off a few years ago to form their own network (Sojourn Network). It is still SBC, and presumably friendly with other A29s and SBC churches. I have no idea how they relate to Mars Hill.
The two ex-Mars Hill pastors on staff are Brad House and Tim Beltz. Some of Mars Hill’s DNA – including Redemption Groups – are embedded in Sojourn’s own DNA. So…if you’re in the Louisville area, caveat emptor.
@ Nick & numo:
Here’s the source, Luther’s 1522 sermon The Estate of Marriage:
http://pages.uoregon.edu/dluebke/Reformations441/LutherMarriage.htm
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Well, Lootair (Luther) did say reason is a pretty whore. If that’s indeed the case, then Potter is one of her best Johns.
Hester wrote:
While witnessing falsely himself.
@ LockedInThe John:
Loved the screen name, and that was some gospelicious winsomemess.
@ Gram3:
Er, winsome*n*ess. Unintended pun committed by my keyboard. If the Johns are really John Carpenter, well, that explains a lot.
Doug wrote:
This friend speaks my mind.
Pam wrote:
Yes, indeed, I agree entirely.
If an imprisoned criminal were to speak in this way, it might be what is expected. For anyone else? And for someone who calls himslef a pastor? Who claims to be Christian??
I don’t think that even mental illness (which I believe that MD clearly displays) is an excuse for this hate-filled rant.
Two comments not approved due to tedious commentary bordering on insulting, personal attacks which mirror his behavior out and about the Internet. Good night!
Doug wrote:
And how interesting that one of Mr Driscoll’s biggest obsessions is “guarding against wolves.”
Wisdomchaser wrote:
Amen.
Former Sojourn member wrote:
Thanks. Can you tell us anything about the redemption groups? What are they and how do they work?
@ Deb:
Oh my word. How did I miss that one? Any more proof on how lacking in discernment the SBC leadership has been?
mirele wrote:
I yearn to share the speculation that comes into my mind whenever this question is asked, but I don’t, out of respect for the Deebs & the other fine folks here. But, boy, if MD could read my mind, his resultant rage would do him an injury…..
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’ve never heard washing your hands called that before – must be one of those historical idioms.
dee wrote:
Surely not..!
Good morning.
John wrote:
I have no interest in otiose debate with any of the various Johns in the Fiscal Surplus, so I have edited the above quote for silly stuff. In what remains, however, Mr John does shed a great deal of light on why so many people follow Fiscal.
When you actually listen carefully to his lectures, they are actually riddled with inaccuracies on all scales. But he makes a big thing out of supporting traditional independent Protestant hot-buttons such as penal substitutionary atonement and the authority of the bible. Metaphorically, he waves a fake ID and shouts “Orthodox!” “Biblical!” “Sound doctrine!” …etc..etc. And because so many Protestant denominational sub-cultures believe the enemy is “liberalism” (whatever that means to them) and the only defence against it is “sound doctrine” (whatever that means to them), they look no further. Fiscal supports the virgin birth, unlike that awful Rob Hell, so he must be a godly teacher. Likewise, because the only morality our Protestant sub-cultures care about is defined by a small set of easily-seen sexual sins, and he has never had an affair and is not gay, he must be morally upright.
And on a personal level, Fiscal appears strong and confident, or – as Mr John put it – exudes a sense of authority. That, combined with the fact that he boldly tells people what to do and how to interpret the bible, is compellingly attractive to certain types of people. Human beings, insofar as God formed us from the dust of the earth, and especially insofar as we are fallen, share many things in common with the animal kingdom. One of them is that we are social animals who are hard-wired to follow authority and leadership with an appearance of confidence and strength. It absolves us of decision-making responsibility and reassures us that we aren’t going it alone; if a person, or even a faceless organisation like the Watchtower, gives us that kind of reassurance with one hand, then we are willing to let it take almost anything from us with the other hand.
What people buy from leaders like Fiscal is freedom from responsibility. But they buy it at the cost of their souls.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Sorry; that sentence – with two “actually”‘s – was rubbish!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
What I really want to reference here is your whole comment. That is so insightful.
I would add that the mans’ very bluster and rough-hewn-ness and individual identifiability, jeans and all, fit right in with the US fascination with the “old wild west” types and the current survivalism and the Lone Ranger good guy tough fighting alone for truth, justice and the American way. The US loves the “tough guy” on screen, apparently whatever the tough guy’s cause may be and whoever the tough guy’s enemies may be and in whatever historical time frame the tough guy may be. And Driscoll’s apparent “enemies” appeal to a lot of people as having enemy potential, all of it like you said under the label of liberalism. And if the tough guy crosses a few lines,well of course they do, what would one expect. If Driscoll were to show himself to be “tougher” even than the bible, even making scripture bend to his will, well wow and look at that.
Great comment, Nick.
@ Hester:
Oh, yes, that’s right. My tragic shootings get mixed up…. Is a sentence that one should not have to write.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Homophobia: the fear that men will treat you the way you treat women.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
TWEREN’T ME – I don’t do insulting personal attacks. I simply argue viewpoints unpopular with the TWW template.
dee wrote:
Rattled their cage with undeniable facts, die we?
Good.
When they resort to insults and personal attacks, it shows their arguments for they are, hollow, worthless rants against love, justice, and the Bible.
Continue to fight against the truth, oh Demented Driscoll Drone in Denial.
Your shenanigans, while pitiful, display the dire need for places like TWW, WTH, and Warren’s.
Lydia wrote:
Ah yes, the hiding in the shocking technique. So many people in various contexts get away with bad behavior by going so far that it’s almost unbelievable. Whether it’s abusers who do such cruel things that the mind boggles, or just everyday impoliteness (that relative who calls your boyfriend the N word) that grate and are hard to point out. Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The great fall-out of the Protestant Reformation. When the Bible is translated, when you can read it, you are expected to read it. And expected to form some sort of opinion on it. Hard for a lot of people to do. Much easier to follow whoever shouts the loudest. Wolf among the sheep indeed.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
I kind of assumed it was one of the Johns whereof Dee spake. That “LockedInThe John” character is as barking as they come IMHO, and I’m surprised he * hasn’t been banned, even though he has great hair.
* Or she – the avatar pic may be ruggedly handsome and biblically masculine, but it’s not necessarily a portrait. We may never know.
@ Hester:
Evidently, you were right! Obviously, since Luther didn’t preach in english, the sermon had to be translated, and I suppose I must allow the translators a modicum of latitude with the medieval German word Scheißentuch. Especially as that’s not really a medieval German word, but one I made up in a sudden rush of whoopee-cushion humour.
@ Nancy: I suspect MD is more of a blue collar Boeing worker type, given that he’s a local. Certainly not a romanticized image.
@ numo: err, not a romanticized image compared to the whole Line Gunfighter trope that’s so central to westerns in any form.
@ numo:
Lone.
@ numo:
There are many great and decent people who are or were factory workers.
@ Lydia: of course there are. However, there seems to be a big divide between blue collar types and white collar folks in the Seattle area (or, more accurately, there has been such) for a long, long time.
I have local acquaintances who could explain that much better than I can, but it seems to me that MD has made it a part of his image that plays to the local crowd but isn’t necessarily obvious to people who aren’t from the area.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Poe warning!! You actually made up a word. You can’t prove Herr Luther actually said it. This sounds like false witness to me. Repenten sie schnell, Tischkopf!! Actually, Puritan scholars determined he actually said “ScheissenBuch”, referring to a certain Papal bull. They also actually discovered that much of Luther’s colorful language originated with William Wallace II, who secretly toured Deutschland in the mid-fourteenth century. One of Wee William’s favourite expressions was “Sheep of Height”, translated Schaf von Berg, misunderstood as Hexe von Burg, and eventually becoming Wartburg Wtches.
PS: I don’t support Fiscal. I don’t really know anything about him. He’s human. Mistakes were made. Let’s show some Christian charity!!! You’re all going in der Hoelle!!! End Poe.
Dave A A wrote:
Not only can I not prove he said it, I am 100% certain that Martin Luther never referred to the changing of Scheißentücher. Or Pupentücher.
Table-head? Are you sure that’s funny? (Seriously – I’m a bit out of touch. As you’ve probably spotted already.)
Actually, I claim dibs on that one!
Lydia wrote:
Lydia in short they are groups that supposedly dig into the roots of your sins, and help you overcome them. They are weekly or bi-weekly for a period of 9-10 weeks, beginning with a meeting for all the participants, followed by the large group splitting into groups of 4-5 people, divided by gender.
You are encouraged to talk about and confess your sins, which leads to what in my opinion is the greatest danger of these groups: you end up talking about things to strangers you should only talk about with your spouse, or a trusted friend, or a trusted pastor. IT’s similar to how in Mars Hill/Sojourn community groups, you’re encouraged to ‘be real’ and be frank about your sins and issues when the CG splits up into men and women. Only difference is, with Redemption groups, you’re talking about things your CG leader probably would tell you to take to a pastor (or Redemption group).
You’re going to need to do a little research. So start here:
http://sojournchurch.com/redemption-groups/
http://redemptiongroups.com/
Then read these articles posted some time ago here on TWW:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/04/19/aor-letdown-mark-driscoll-sbc-putdown-and-redemption-groups-rundown/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/06/22/bent-myer-speaks-out-about-redemption-groups-at-mark-driscolls-mars-hill/
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“All Things Considered: Women And Children First?”
hmmm…
All Mars Hill church members and attendees, are strongly encouraged to utilize the highest sense of discernment in their ‘affiliation’ with Reverend Mark Driscoll, an individual known to possess and demonstrate ‘questionable’ language, attitude(s), policie(s) and practice(s) when ministering in a religious environment where women and children are present.
Extreme ‘caution’ is advised.
—
Mr.H wrote:
It’s really too bad that wolves have received such a bad rap throughout human history. With the exception of my own Native American tradition and the pre-Christian Germanic tribes East of the Rhine (who revered them as spiritual totems), they were almost universally reviled.
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—> Church Inside Out: Many call for Outser of Da Sealtle Megachurch Big Cheeze Over Placards, Coffee & Donutz?
hmmm…
From video screen ‘idol’ to dumpster dipper in just a ‘few’ simple, deleterious, precipitous, and perpendicular steps, perhaps?
huh?
‘They’ are starting to ‘Question Mark’.
..bout time, huh?
Lõõks like da kidz have da keys to da proverbial Marzhil bus, Mark…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0axdos6UPBs
Ops!
;~)
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Comic relief: The Beach Boys- “Good Vibrations”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2XfKc0iKUQ
&feature=youtube_gdata_player
reference(s):
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2024235297_marshillprotestxml.html
additional:
http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Mars+Hill+Church+Protest&qpvt=mars+hill+church+protest&FORM=EWRE
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’m not sure it is — first German insult off top of my (table) head.
An excuse seems far too common these days and that it was a youthful indiscretion . And these are actions done during youth but by individuals who are adults in their late 20s or 30s. Why can’t they just admit to the error of their ways and go before their church or political rally and say “I’m sorry ?” It’s a whole lot better to admit wrong than to make excuses.
@ Lisa:
Actually, some of his sermons were pretty similar, if the congregation could take the sermons, they likely were oblivious to the warning signs in the comment threads. Why anyone could feel like they were growing more Christ-like with Mark as a Pastor completely baffles me, sure the music was powerful and it may have seemed god for a while, but how did so many people stay year after year and not take spiritual inventory of their growth and Chrsitlikeness and not leave? It is really scary actually.
@ Muff Potter:
All domestic dog breeds come from wolves, people just don’t realize they like wolves as much as they do 😉
@ NJ:
From my point of view Acts 29 is pretty much an alien face hugger for churches. They come in (the organization)like a parasite and attach themselves to the host church. It does not matter what the sign says outside for their mission is to assimilate and take over. This organization plants it’s ideas and theology and waits. Slowly changing the environment around itself to support the life of the new mission. The internal structure is changed to an elder lead one, placing the power strictly in the hands of the men in charge. Then and only then can the parasite burst out of the chest and take it’s place. The church will have new leaders, new governance and a new name before people can catch up and stop the spread of the infection. The only way to be sure folks, is to nuke the site from orbit. Just a random thought.
Dear John (Don’t you love Dear John letters?)
You are now officially banned.
Love:The Thin Skinned Tyrant.
John Carpenter and his trio of Johns are some of the vilest trolls you will ever meet.Good for you Dee in banning him, I got his puff piece on Mark Driscoll thrown off a well known christian magazine site after his repeated attacks on me. He is a miserable man.
@ Rebecca Lynn:
Amazing analogy! Love it!
I am a movie lover at heart. Mr. H so glad you liked it. Unfortunately this went down exactly as I described at my church so I know what I am talking about..When my story hit this site thanks to Deb and Dee I had trolls like John Carpenter tearing me apart in no time. I think that trolls are the worker aliens that protect the hive and help further their race by watching over the hatching facehuggers before they attach themselves to their hosts. It makes me smile inside….
Former Sojourn member wrote:
Revolutionary Cell Structure, with Enlightened Self-Criticism before Party Commissars and the Masses.
(I stumbled around the fringes of the Shepherding Movement in the Seventies. One taste was enough.)
@ Caitlin:
Not wolves, Caitlin.
Feral dog pack.
Wolves have more class than that.
Gram3 wrote:
I’m off to get he popcorn if you two are really going to get going. Consider me seriously amused.
@ Former Sojourn member:
Thank you! A friend of mine went to what I think was one but it was in a home as she was invited by a friend of a friend. She felt things were not right, right away. Thankfully, she did not go back. I have heard they changed the name of them but not sure to what. I was not sure if they were similar to Mars Hill and SGM but sounds like they are.
Just piggybacking on the thoughts involved in setting up these groups. Note how John’s “baptism of repentance” did not require any confessions or specificities of naming sins to the group.
Dangerous stuff. Warn your teens, guys. Many teen groups are doing these sorts group confessionals at retreats and camps. A lot of peer pressure and heat of emotionalism does not protect them very well.
@ Val:
Ummm…. my dad told me my childhood pet chihuahua was descended from very large rats. :o)
@ Former Sojourn member:
OH MY WORD! Read Sojourns Redemption Group Member Agreement
http://sojournchurch.com/wp-content/uploads/Redemption-Group-Agreement-v3.3.pdf
Warning! Danger! I grieve for the folks who have signed these things.
Could someone give me (any?) context for this very odd John Piper tweet?
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/497193087874392064
“Down by the river the teenagers would go to make out. I watched them drive back. They never looked happy. Especially she.”
Is he Piperishly trying to rephrase the Richard Marx song “Hazard” or something ???
I feel like I’m living in a parallel universe to this guy.
Haitch wrote:
There is no context. It is merely Piper being Piper.he has said a number of odd things throughout the years but is so worshipped that I expect to hear about a conference and a book on the concept of teens making out and why “she” is sad any day now
Ugh. Just had a read over at Julie Anne’s SSB. I’d forgotten the ‘deep calls to deep’ tweet. He’s a real worry. There are some unique and very humorous responses that gave me a much needed snort.
Acts 29 just removed Driscoll and Mars Hill.
CT has the story: http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/august/acts-29-removes-mars-hill-asks-mark-driscoll-matt-chandler.html?utm_source=ctdirect-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=9453332&utm_content=292427537&utm_campaign=2013
Acts 29 just removed Driscoll from it’s rolls….amen
M. Joy wrote:
Yes, he does, doesn’t he?
Mind you, I suspect that there are denizens of this nation’s prisons who also have cleaner mouths than MD. But I give a pass to the ax murderers among us….(see Zooey shrug; hear Zooey sigh & mutter, “What can you expect?)
@ Laura:
Your summary of how this language is hatred of women (and their parts) is very eye opening. My first take on is that it is sexual bullying of men. This sort of language is what a guy might hear moments before he was raped in prison by other men. These are the words of a rapist, a bully, an abuser.