This week, a former popular high school football star, Greg Kelley, was convicted and sentenced (as part of a sentencing agreement) to 25 years in prison with no opportunity of appeal for super aggravate sexual assault on a 4 year old child in Texas. He will serve out the full sentence and will be on the sexual offender list for the rest of his life link and link.
There is a large group of teenagers in the town, along with some adults, who refuse to believe that he is guilty. They have a vocal social media presence and are conducting fund raisers to support Kelley. Unfortunately, some of his supporters have been verbally negative to all who do not support their beliefs. They have cast doubts on the child, the child's family and even on the jury and the police.
It has so concerned Amy Smith and myself that we decided to reach out in an open letter to the child and his family. We got the idea from Wade Burleson who did the same thing during the Voice of the Martyrs situation. Wade has served as a role model to us on how to love the hurting. We both worked on the letter together and plan to post it on both of our websites.
Due to the nature of this open letter, we will not allow any negative comments to the post. This post is meant to serve as a support to the child and his family. We hope that they may read it. All negative comments will not be approved and/or trashed. Although we know that our regular readers would not do such a thing, we are less certain about friends of Greg.
This post is also an opportunity for readers to send their love to this family. We do not know for sure that they will see it but we think it is a very real possibility due to the high profile nature of this situation.
Thank you for writing this letter–I hope it is read someday by this Young Superhero and that he understands how incredible he is for speaking up. We all have different experiences/thoughts/feelings along the way on our Life Journeys and we are who we are despite and in spite of them. This young one is an inspiration and he reminds me to take a stand, speak up, and speak the truth–for myself and everyone else–even if my voice shakes.
Love it! Good for you, Deebs and Amy!
Of course. He’s a High School FOOTBALL Star, and in high school Varsity Football are the Master Race. (I was one of the subhumans; I’ve been trying to forget those four years of high school for the past forty.)
And the adults? Al Bundys from “Married With Children” types reliving their FOOTBALL Star Glory Days. “Once *I* Scored Three Touchdowns in One Game!”
Sort of related:
Oklahoma missionary, Matthew Durham, 19 years old, ‘sexually abused ten orphans as young as four at Kenya children’s shelter’… but his lawyer blames ‘pseudo-tribal VOODOO’
22 July 2014
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2701543/Oklahoma-missionary-sexually-abused-ten-African-orphans-young-FOUR-Kenya-childrens-shelter-lawyer-blames-pseudo-tribal-philological-voodoo.html
Why not just disable comments on it entirely?
Clayton
Because I want supportive comments for the child and his family.
who is amy smith?
really not sure what your issue is. why would you oppose a case review in the name of justice? if you have examined the court documents, you would understand that there were many procedural mistakes in the trial by the prosecution. the chain of evidence by the police department was shocking in the way it was handled and destroyed. the procedural mistakes by the police department, i n violation of their own written regulatios merits investigation. however, as you pray fir this victim, please be aware they are not christian family. i am advising the group, and have been since day 1 on how to proceed and how to raise funds. this is a very calculated and methodical orocess and justice will be served
btw, i am sure you will delete my post, so be it
I live in the county where the trial was held and it’s sad to say that our county government doesn’t have the best track record. I don’t know if he is guilty or innocent. I do know that if it were my son on trial, I would want him to have a fair trial. If it were my son who was the victim, I would want the accused to have a fair trial so there would be no question or doubt as to whether or not this happened and a conviction would stick. But, a fair trial was not had (please read up on the Williamson County judicial system. The Michael Morton case is one you can read.). As a citizen of this county that is what I want, a fair trial.
Thank you both for doing this!!
No one believed me and it is the loneliest, scariest place to be when you are a child.
I am so glad to know of this young boy and his story
@ anon:
Just curious…why does it matter whether the victim is a Christian or not? Are we only to care about victims that are Christian?
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I’m curious as well. Why would this even matter?
anon wrote:
oh, THIS. Your cold heart doesn’t beat, I’m sure of it. For shame – against you and what you represent.
I am sorry to hear about this.
I do not know anything about the facts or the court case.
Praying for the little 4 year old child and his/her family.
I specifically hope that this 4 year and the family will have a psychological strength to understand that no matter what a criminal does to you, he cannot take away your dignity.
God bless.
anon wrote:
I don’t remember ever hearing anything more unchristian. That you resort to such passive-aggressive meannness implies deep weakness in your position.
As one believer to another, you should be ashamed of yourself for thinking in such ways, much less putting it in public comment under cover of sanctimony.
anon wrote:
No need. You’re a pharisee. You stand condemned out of your own mouth.
Patrice wrote:
Amen!
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
It doesn’t,AB. Not if you’re a decent human being. The author of that particularly nasty post…..Well. What I think of that person is best left unsaid.
anon wrote:
This is why the pro Greg Kelley people frustrate me. i said nothing of the sort. anon wrote:
And this matters, how? Oh I get it. If you are a Christian, you would be innocent. That is what I am hearing about Greg Kelley. He couldn’t do it. He is a Christina. It is obvious that you have only read this blog because you support GK. I have some sad news for you. Alleged Christians do all sorts of heinous things and that includes child molestation.
So, a little 4 year old boy is a liar because his family is not a Christian and Greg Kelly is innocent because he is a Christian, and, oh yeah, a football player.
Elbow710 wrote:
What do you mean by a fair trial? If Greg Kelley had gone through this process and was declared innocent, would you still be demanding a fair trial?
@ dee:
As an attorney in Texas who does not do any work that relates to crime!!, I must say that many people in Texas get railroaded in less than fair trials. We have a recent effort by some more recently elected DAs to review cases, and people are being exonerated due to the burial of evidence that would contradict a conviction, DNA be analyzed years after conviction, etc. Williamson County is among the worst jurisdictions for police and prosecutors suppressing evidence that would contradict guilt by the accused. And the criminal trial rules in Texas favor the prosecution. People saying that the trial was unfair may actually be telling the truth of this matter. Do not condemn them for that.
Patrice wrote:
Texas is the belt buckle of cultural Christians. If you look good, attend a local church off and on, play sports and are very popular, then you are a Christian and are “accepted.” I find this comment despicable.
An Attorney wrote:
I didn’t. I am condemning them for the outright bullying that is going on in Leander.
anon wrote:
If I were you, I would want it deleted but I let it stand. I plan to send it to the reporter who interviewed me as an example of what i mean. You need to go to your pastor and talk to him about this comment. How very sad.
Dee,
There are only three people who know what actually happened. A young, impressionable child; the alleged perpetrator; and God. And in Williamson County, charges are 99% likely to be filed and 99% to end in conviction. People have spent 20+ years in prison after being convicted in Williamson County, due to the bully behavior of the police and the DA’s office, only to be exonerated. There is no presumption of innocence, and biased investigation is rife. And even when the buried evidence is uncovered, the DA’s office will fight tooth and nail to keep it from being analyzed and presented when it might exonerate and show their mistakes/suppression of evidence. And Tyler is worse than Georgetown.
And sensational child sex allegations have a long history of mismanagement by investigators.
We need to tread lightly. Support the child, who is a victim either way in this. But tread lightly.
An Attorney
Again, I am supporting the child. But take a look at the comment from some guy “leading the effort” that the child’s family isn’t Christian. This is despicable. This is what I am saying. I know nothing about the police or the judicial system in that area. However, I do know bullying when I see it and this community of supposed Christians are involved in bullying by speaking negatively about the child’s family and those who think the child could be right.
What an awful town to live in if what is being presented is true. The police stink, the judicial system stinks, the jury is stupid, the people bully families that are not Christians, football players rule, teens get angry if someone disagrees with them and say awful things on social media, etc. The town is being presented as a pit. Perhaps they deserve it.
sam h wrote:
Me
You’re a nut, Amy 🙂 Love it!
@ Amy Smith:
perhaps sharing some information? it was an honest question.
I’m 54 years old. And until last night, I didn’t tell anyone that I’d been sexually abused by a male teenage neighbor when I was eight or nine years old. He told me it was a secret, he told me not to tell anyone. I didn’t, but I’m sure his mother was wondering what I was doing the day she caught me opening up the back hood of his prized Volkswagen and fiddling with the engine. I don’t even remember what I was trying to do. I was probably trying to figure out a way to destroy it.
So yeah, I believe the child.
elastigirl wrote:
It was an honest reply from me. Clicking on my name links to my blog.
mirele wrote:
mirele: I’m so sorry. You’ve kept that secret for a very long time and shows how powerful abuse and secrets can be. I’m glad that secret no longer has a hold over you and pray for continued peace and healing.
@ mirele:
I am so, so sorry for your pain. Pedophilia and its effects last a lifetime. May you find peace in God as well as knowing that today people are actively fighting for children who are abused.
Dee and Deb:
I appreciate your advocacy for sexual abuse victims generally yet have a few concerns respecting your open letter and the dialogue surrounding it.
Can you cite some examples of the bullying you’ve experienced? So far the posts of the dissenting commenters seem much more respectful and considered than those of some of your regular readers, quite frankly. In particular, the name-calling and snarkiness appear one-sided.
I think the comment about the alleged victim not being a Christian can be interpreted several ways. If his family is not Christian then they may not appreciate or even understand the David and Goliath analogy. They also may not want their story on a Christian blog if they perceive themselves to be doing battle with a Christian Church. Your letter could also be viewed as a soft form of evangelizing even though I doubt you intended it to come across that way.
Open letters seem like a good idea yet are almost never appreciated by victims if they’re written without the victims’ knowledge and express permission, in my experience. I’ve offered to draft open letters on behalf of people I know well and even they almost always say they don’t want that type of attention brought to their situation because it actually makes things worse by whipping up a lot of drama they don’t want and can’t really respond to.
Just some things to consider. Thanks.
In my initial comment I stated that if either the accused OR the victim was my son I would want a fair trial. I’m not on any bandwagon for the accused. So please don’t group me as such. Don’t know if he is truly innocent or guilty. Simply stating my opinion as a resident of the county. If his attorney is granted a new trial and it is conducted fairly and the accused is found guilty a second time. Then so be it. If he’s not granted a second trial and the verdict stands so be it. @ dee:
dee wrote:
@ mirele:
Oy, Mirele, my sympathies! It took me a long time, too.
It’s like lancing an infected wound—hurts like bully-oh and also feels deeply relieving. I hope you will be very gentle with yourself. Healing commences but it is slow.
I wish you well.
Jack wrote:
The reason I wrote this post was due to the tweets of some of the teenagers in Leander which were directed at Amy Smith and some others who simply said they supported the victim. Jack wrote:
Thank you for your concern about evangelizing. The David and Goliath story is one with which many children are acquainted, Christian, Jewish, Muslim or not. It is a story of a young boy who overcomes a giant and was most appropriate to the situation. It is no different than quoting a story line from Star Wars. Jack wrote:
I actually linked to one such letter written by Wade Burleson which was appreciated by the family. Please read it. He was able to be of significant support when the family contacted him. So, our experience is different than yours. In the 5 1/2 years of doing this blog, we have only written two. Jack wrote:
Drama has been whipped up so much by "rallies, flyers, dances, tweets, etc." that I do not think this will make it worse. It is already "worse." Jack wrote:
Just like I believe that those teenagers have the right to do their thing on social media, however boorishly, TWW always allows comments and rarely polices them. In fact, (readers, correct me if I am wrong), we have never not allowed difficult comments for any post. For the sake of the letter, we banned such comments. However, as you can see here, I did a pre post and am allowing all sorts of comments here. I have not banned one, as of yet. In any event, welcome to TWW and thank you for your comment.
Elbow710 wrote:
I think I said something which may have been misunderstood. As the editor of a blog dealing with controversial issues, which at the same time allows anonymous comments like yours (forgive me if your name truly is Elbow710), it is difficult to know with whom I am dealing. For all I know you could be Greg Kelley’s aunt or the victim’s dad, a pedophile who is on the registered sex offender list or just someone who likes to debate issues.
I wouldn’t dream of putting you into any group. I have no idea who or what you stand for.
I did not ask it to “corner you.” I am trying to understand you. By asking these types of question in my years of blogging, I have learned much from our readers. This blog is not merely here for us to pontificate. We want to hear from others even when they call us all sorts of names. We even keep a running list for our readers’ amusement. Here are just a few.
Wartburg witches
Obscure
Wenches
O glorious wenches
Minions of Satan
Hatemongers
x#&**#xx!@
Narcissistic zeroes
Morons
Warthogs
Quite a gossip column
How did we ever get along without you?
Assyrians
Philistines
Full of ****
Bored housewives
Yellow journalism
Discernment Divas
So, as you can see, we allow ourselves to be placed on the firing line as well. We are one of the few blogs out there that allow seriously negative comments towards us to be posted.
When I ask a question, it is not my intent to zing you. I am trying to figure out what you are saying. Believe it or not, without seeing a person’s face, it is sometimes difficult to interpret what is being said.
The question I ask still stands. If Greg Kelly was found innocent, would you still advocate for a fair trial? It would help me to understand your thoughts on the matter.
Anyway, I forgot to welcome you to TWW. Thank you for your input.
@ An Attorney:
I believe you said earlier that you are not a criminal lawyer, so this question maybe outside your specialty. In cases in this county with the very totalitarian sounding behavior, do appeals go outside their sphere of influence? Or are defendants stuck working in a rigged system all the way up the appeals process? Sorry if this outside your knowledge, my cousin and her husbands are lawyers and I know it drives them crazy when people ask her law questions outside her specialty. Same thing happens in the medical field to.
I appreciate your concern for the young child, and I share it.
I don’t recall any of my posts not making it through moderation (if they went into queue), but being placed on permanent moderated status (i.e., your posts won’t appear automatically, as they once did, but each one must be approved to appear) basically has a similar effect.
Until recently, appeals for defendants rarely resulted in the overturning of conviction, with the exception of sending the case back for a new trial. Texas has two levels of appellate courts. The first level is a circuit court that often has jurisdiction for a county or two, except in the less populated areas, where the jurisdiction will cover several counties. The highest court in Texas for criminal matters is the Court of Criminal Appeals, which is generally anti-convict, and has made some rather strange rulings that deny defendants the right to appeal on some occasions when evidence was not available to be introduced that might have swayed a jury to find for the defendant. However, recently the CCA has also made some decisions that favor application for exoneration. BTW, at the federal level, appeals from CCA to the 5th Circuit (federal) are also relatively rarely successful.
There is a great push in the CCA, as in the US SCt, for finality in criminal cases, resulting in limitations on appeals due to timeliness or that an earlier unsuccessful appeal was heard, even if new evidence of actual innocence has been uncovered. About the only cases that are fairly likely to be successful are so called Brady challenges, going back to a case where the SCt ruled in favor of the defendant because the prosecution had evidence against conviction which was not provided to defense counsel. That is the significant recent case in Williamson County, where a statement from the defendant’s son that a monster had killed his mother was suppressed and not revealed, and a kerchief with the victims blood was never analyzed. When it was, it showed DNA from a third party who later killed another woman in similar circumstances. After 25 or so years, the husband of the victim, and father of the little boy, was exonerated. But the prosecutor in the county fought against any analysis of the DNA evidence. Some people believe (me included) that the second woman might not have been killed had the police and DA done the job right the first time, but they had decided on the first theory in any murder case — the spouse did it — and worked toward proving that case rather than having an open minded investigation. BTW there were other witnesses who talked about a man who had been hanging around the neighborhood about the time of the murder.
About the only way not to be the prime suspect in your spouse’s murder is to be killed yourself. An air-tight alibi, with multiple credible witnesses that the spouse was with them at the time of the murder, is about the only thing that will protect the spouse from being the prime suspect. What they show on TV is not accurate.
I honestly don’t know anyone involved with this case, nor have I read the evidence, so I’m not going to comment on it specifically.
My caution to anyone reading is this: the second we allow our justifiable anger about cases like SGM (among many others) to taint our commitment to hold people innocent until proven guilty, we create an environment where *none* of us are safe. Victims included.
Let me paint a scenario for you. Say a victim recieves justice after injustices have been perpetuated for a time. Victim is exonerated, guilty person goes to jail.
Cut to 20 years later.
Victim is now an adult in a culture that has now swung the other way, i.o.w., “believe the victim at all costs before victimhood is actually supported with evidence”. This is not referring to whether it gets reported, this is after it gets reported and we rush to judgement based on past mistakes on the part of the church AND the judicial system.
Let’s say the victim gets accused of the same crime. Whether he or isn’t guilty, guilt is not only suspected, but now *highly* suspected because of the statistics showing likelihood of a person repeating their own abuse.
In a culture where reported abuse is treated as proven evidence, this former victim stands very little chance of a fair trial. Especially in the court of public opinion.
Lest you think this is a straw man argument, I’ve personally witnessed this happen to someone. The accuser was a 3rd party, the alleged victims have all testified that it never happened – and few of them even speak to the 3rd party anymore – and the accused had his life destroyed.
As an abused child, I think it should be reported IMMEDIATELY. As a witness to false reports automatically being believed, I think it should be *fairly tried*.
None of us are above either of these scenarios happening to our families. None of us. Be wise. Be wise.
Elbow710 wrote:
Chris
So, he was convicted. How do you decide if a trial is a fair trial?
@ Amy Smith:
“It was an honest reply from me. Clicking on my name links to my blog”
I didn’t know that.. thanks
I have seen the miscarriage of justice in child abuse allegations personally, I’m personally aquainted with the people wrongly accused in the Wenatchee witch hunts who were sent to prison for allegedly ritually molesting 50-70 children. that showed me that bad police work, overzealous prosecutors, and DA’s can ruin a persons life. however that does not mean that we don’t believe 4 year old children and with enough evidence, (circumstancial or physical) charge and try them. I have heard that texas is the worst state in the country for false prosecutions but what got my attention in this case were the statements by the gym owner that said Kelley lied about being in active duty in the marines, and also the fact that the day care owner showed up in court to testify wearing a ‘support greg kelley’ pin and was questioned and admitted that she refused to talk to the investigators. that is what leads me to believe that this was a fair trial and a just verdict. http://www.myfoxaustin.com/story/26014121/greg-kelley-trial-continues kelley lied about being in active service in the military
@1:27mins http://www.keyetv.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/update-jury-deliberating-greg-kelley-trial-19383.shtml
the owner of kelleys gym says that kelley told him several times that he (kelley) was in the marines which was untrue.
http://kxan.com/2014/07/11/defense-paints-child-witnesses-as-unreliable-in-kelley-trial/
(day care owner)
She began her testimony by admitting she often would have more children at the daycare than she was supposed to have given her listing. But the testimony turned tense at times when prosecutors pressed her about why she refused to talk to District Attorney Office investigators after the accusations were made.
still, as a poster above pointed out, only the Lord, the little boy, and greg Kelley know the absolute truth in this matter.
I am glad that the discernment divas (that list was tooo funny) wrote this article and the letter to the little boy. i am very glad the family is getting support, whether they are ‘Christian’ or not, (gee that was a really low comment)
one of the hardest parts of telling when you have been abused is that people often don’t believe you, often the accused’s friends will actually personally attack the accusers charector, their family, and any supporters. when that is done on the internet, it stays for ever. imagine this young child when he grows up and looks online to see all those people with all those rally’s and fundraisers supporting the convicted. that says to the abused, we think you are lying. an abuse survivor has enough to deal with without having to go through all that, which is public. at least he and his family have some public support as well,
one of the things i hope that would come out of this whole horrible case is that prosecutors and investigators and police interogators would be forced to come to a recognized standard questioning process when dealing with abuse victims. something that is going to stand up in court, and that those proceedures are required to be followed. we can have common core in schools, why don’t we have common investigating tools nationwide that apply to all in law enforcement?
also that parents would be told ahead of time how to proceed if their child discloses abuse. too many cases are thrown out on points like how many adults talked to the kid, how many times did the parent question the kid. parents who hear their little child say the thing that they hope to never ever hear them say, would be greatly benefited if they knew what to do when that happens, when they are so devastated. if there was something online that told parents a few steps in how to contact authorities, counselors, etc, so that a conviction or accusation isn’t thrown out.
@ sam h:
Thank you for this excellent summary. I knew about his telling people he was in the marines,etc. There are other questions as well about his family life. None of this is any “proof” that he did it but it adds impt. info.
The problem with molestation is that it does occur in the dark, with no witnesses and no physical proof. That is why pedophiles are so successful. They tend to be charming and suck people into their orbit and play games with them. Pedophiles are often the life of the party and charismatic. They have girlfriends, etc. who serve as cover for their behavior.
I keep hearing about a “fair” trial. But what is that? Is it that we are happy with the verdict? Well, what about Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson? They had a “fair” trial and most people have strong opinions as to their “innocence.”
In the end, life is not fair. My kids always knew not to whine about fairness. It is unfair that one of my kids had a brain tumor. It is unfair that children are starving the world. It is unfair that crime syndicates push drugs in low income communities, and on and on. Fair-it is a difficult word.
Anyway, thank you for your thoughtful comment. Actually, thank you for all of your comments. They are well expressed.
@ An Attorney:
Thank you so much for the info good sir. I follow a few law blogs, enough to know that I know nothing about the law and I salute those of you that do.
@ mirele:
Like Patrice mentioned upthread, it also took me a long time to let the secret out. I agree that it is like lancing a wound. I am glad you have told someone – I am glad you told us. There is not much that I can say that will really help. But this – welcome to the ranks of us survivors. You survived and that speaks volumes about your strength. There are many of us among the ranks of the Wartburgers. From Colorado to Arizona, I wish you the healing that only comes from the doors being opened and the light coming in. It is not comfortable nor easy, but it is very much worth it.
8 Common Myths about Child Sexual Abuse http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/res/csa_myths.html
Myth 7: If asked about abuse, children tend to exaggerate and are prone to making false accusations.
A lot depends on how children are asked! The McMartin Preschool case is a case study in how not to ask questions of children regarding abuse.
In the Greg Kelley case, victim 1 (4 year old boy) made a very specific (graphic description) initial outcry of sexual abuse to his mom. She asked him “what, what did you say?” And he repeated it again, same thing. In the end, this is what jurors based the unanimous guilty decision on, according to one juror interviewed afterwards.
http://kxan.com/2014/07/17/kelley-attorney-reflects-on-case-plea-deals/
But one stayed to explain the decision to Cummings.
“What he said is they disregarded most everything and went back to the original statement made by the first victim to their mother,” said Cummings. “And they believed that was enough.”
The juror indicated to Cummings there were times during the trial where several jurors had strong feelings about Kelley’s innocence. But those feelings evolved and Cummings believed the burden of proof which is supposed to lie with the state got pushed to the defense.
“(The juror) said they kept waiting to hear why. Why would (the child) say that,” said Cummings about the outcry the 4-year-old victim made that Kelley made him perform oral sex at the home daycare where the boy stayed and where Kelley lived. “Because they never got that answer, (the jury) believed the child.”
One comment was not approved. It dealt with allegations in another court case which dealt with rape.
So,because I brought up another story showing how horrible Williamson county prosecutors are,ur not going to share my story! It shows how people do lie about being raped! And even when the truth came out the prosecutors still did not give up. And it shows why someone would take a deal even when there innocent. Nice way to pick and choose what u show .
And really..ur going to say” in the end life is not fair”!, not to whine about this injustice in williamson county. I’m sorry..25 years in prison is worth whining about! And having a county legal system that is not corrupt is worth whining about.
I’m not sure at all, actually. And I have no valid opinion on this case as I haven’t read it.
I’m not calling the validity of this case into question. I’m just sending out a gentle reminder of how easy it is for us all to assume guilt or assume innocence, and it’s not always one group who does it. It’s a condition of the human race.
With SGM, even after one of the lead pastor is admitted on the stand that he knew about the crime, but didn’t report it, even after the conviction, the assumption of certain peoples innocence is, I believe, based purely on emotions. It’s the “appeal to authority” fallacy, in reverse of ad hominem, where they’re saying, “This guy’s so wonderful, he could never do anything like this!”
In this current case, I’m hearing, “Football Captain”, and I’m thinking, hmmmm what does that have to do with why people are taking issue with the judicial process? I understand people not wanting to believe something about someone, but logically speaking, it’s still a fallacy.
My issue is with people not speaking in logic about these things. You replied to me with such logic and respect, and we’re discussing it with the prefrontal cortex now, as opposed to the amygdala, which can’t process facts effectively or logically. It just goes nuts and wants to swing it’s fists everywhere.
If there was an issue with the court process, I just think it would behoove us to listen in a way that does no injury to the harmed party, but at the same time shows reapect to the evidence. We need to work to protect an environment where a person’s guilt isn’t assumed. This high school kid could very well be guilty, but there are those that say there’s been problems in this county, and if that’s the case and this was a false conviction, we shouldn’t assume it can’t happen to any of us.
Again, I haven’t read the evidence on this case. I’d really like to read more when I get a chance.
dee wrote:
@ Amy Smith:
Thankyou Amy for posting that here. I’ve never read that lost before. It certainly confirms what I know experientially.
I just can’t read any more comments on other blogs about this anymore. The ignorant statements from people are making me ill. I can understand though how so many people can remain so ignorant. One reason is because sexual assault is so sickening that we refrain from telling all the personal details of our and our children’s experiences. My own daughter’s experience could easily have been dismissed as a lie from her if she didn’t happen to have said one thing that was totally uncoaxed but proved everything to me. She was only 4 years old also. I am definitely biased on the side of this 4 year old. I am believing that whatever and how the victim outcried can definitely be all the proof one needs, and obviously the jury thought so too.
@ Chris:
@ dee:
To be fair to Chris (as he subsequently pointed out) he specifically offered no opinion on the rightness of Greg Kelley’s conviction. Nor do I, and for the same reasons. But as regards what constitutes a fair trial, there are a few things one might suggest.
A fair trial is not one that returns whatever verdict satisfies me emotionally. Rather, a fair trial is one in which due process is followed. If that happened in the Kelley trial, then it was fair, and if it didn’t it wasn’t. I state that as a simple background fact (indeed it is practically a content-free tautology), not as an opinion on which happened in this case.
There are well-established, evidence-based standards of best practice, especially when interviewing children, that minimise the risk of generating misleading evidence. These certainly were not followed in the McMartin trial fiasco, as An Attorney pointed out. In that case, it is clear that children were aggressively and suggestively questioned by adults prosecuting the case, and the latter to all intents and purposes fabricated evidence as a result. Moreover, numerous conflicts of interest arose during that trial as a result of inappropriate relationships/romances between individuals in different parts of the prosecuting apparatus. If neither of those things happened in the Kelley case, then the trial was not unfair in that regard. And so on.
And another one is: take the child’s evidence seriously. That doesn’t mean swallow it hook line and sinker without corroboration or further investigation, but it does mean to consider it as significant evidence. In the case Chris cited, a 3rd party made the allegations and the children themselves – who refuted them – were not believed. In the Kelley case, it was (apparently) a child who first made the allegation. The child’s evidence was taken seriously. Whatever else happened in the case, that part went as it should have done.
We don’t live in a perfect world. Due process, and therefore a fair trial, does not guarantee that no innocent person will ever be convicted or that no guilty person will ever be acquitted. There are many ways in which a trial that is fair by any realistic standards may still result in a miscarriage of justice, in either direction.
Again, I note, whether actually abused or not, the child is a victim in this case and in every other case, and all deserve every sympathy and a great deal of compassion. Even in the infamous cases of false accusation, the children involved are always harmed by the experience. How we treat the child should not have any relationship wrt whether we think the charges are true or not. Compassion, support, and understanding are appropriate for children in every case of alleged child sexual abuse.
@ An Attorney:
Much agreement! Your other posts on this topic have been informative, as well. One question on which you may be able to shed further light. The news article states, “As part of the plea deal, Kelley won’t be allowed to appeal the verdict.” I understand why the state might want a deal like this, but should they? And why would any defendant– guilty or innocent– agree to it? In another thread you mentioned the Dallas case of Michael Phillips– wrongly imprisoned for 12 years. I saw that he’d been mistakenly ID’d by the rape victim (the real rapist living in the same motel), and encouraged to take a deal by his lawyer. Sounds like his lawyer might have encouraged him to take a “no appeal” plea, if they had them back then.
angrymom
You are obviously a new reader so welcome to TWW. I take it that you do not run a busy blog or you might have some empathy for my position. If you do not think that I know that people sometimes lie, you have obviously not taken the time to acquaint yourself with any other story except the one that you are angry about. You have also not taken the time to read our well expressed point of view on child sex abuse and churches as well as our association with other groups who are well acquainted with the statistics surrounding child sex abuse and also understanding of child sex abuse reporting, etc. This blog has been around 5 1/2 years and has written extensively on this subject.We know, for example, how infrequently little children lie about this subject and could give you a number of papers to read written by leading experts on the subject in this country.,
I have to be careful about accusations on this blog and choose not to post on stories unless I know the person, have spoken with the person in depth or have enough reports via newspapers, etc. I do not know you and you told a story without me knowing who you are, along with us having no other information about the story, etc. This blog is well known precisely because we spend lots of times getting the background on stories with lots of links and telephone calls to sources to check it out.
We pulbish things that many blogs will not publis including many stories about child sex abuse, domestic violence and other abuses. I am also concerned when accusations are made about dishonesty on the part of law enforcement when I have no compelling evidence except an alleged story by an obviously angry person who doesn’t even take the time to introduce herself or her story in an understandable fashion.
So, you are a guest on our blog and you could have contacted me about your story and we could have gathered some information with which to report your accusation in a thoughtful manner.
And, this blog allows people to call us all sorts of names and accuse us of all sorts of stuff as you now see by us posting your accusations.
Dee and I didn’t post our open letter to debate the merits of the criminal case. We did it to support a child who even now the official Fight for GK group is saying was actually sexually assaulted but that the “real suspect” is still on the loose. (Like OJ searching for the “real killer?”)
We say at SNAP that we understand people will be upset when allegations of abuse arise and want to support their pastor, family member, friend etc., but we urge them to do so privately in a manner that doesn’t public mock and bully and doesn’t cause revictimization of the victims. This little boy is only now 5 years old. Last week was the “Groovin for GK” dance now they’re planning a “Freedom Fest.” https://twitter.com/fightforgk/status/493538879379881985
If u have some kind of proof GK did this,other then a child saying so please let us know. My co worker was telling me about when her husband lifted his nephew to put him on the bleachers and he yelled out ” don’t touch my pee pee” he had his hand under his armpits. So don’t tell me children ” never lie”. And all this group is asking for is Williamson county to not delete emails,and to investigate,and to have a jury understand that its the prosecution that needs to have proof. Yes,there is a gathering of support for GK,but we are also there for that child. But I guess the almost 7000 people who think this case was miss handled are all against this child..well ur wrong.
angrymom wrote:
angrymom
Again, you are doing you cause no good by accusing us of something we didn’t say.
angrymom wrote:
This is a final warning. We didn’t say this and you are sounding a bit overwrought. Please moderate your language a bit so a thoughtful discussion can ensue. I am putting your comments into moderation which means they will not be approved until I read them. I am going to bed in a few minutes so that will not occur until the morning.
I hear anger towards the victim from angry mom: Still with the attacks on a 4 year old child claiming he’s lying. This is victim blaming, shaming, and revictimization. If you have corruption so bad among your elected officials in your county that influenced a jury of 12 of Kelley’s peers, get to work defeating them at the polls. The prosecution had proof. You just can’t accept it. The jury did. And Kelley accepted a sentencing deal waiving his right to appeal.
@ Amy Smith:
His choice was to accept the plea deal or spend the rest of his life in prison. Not exactly a free choice. There are many in the legal profession who believe that the “no appeal” part of the plea deal should be extremely limited, as evidence is often hidden or later discovered. One of the issues is always not that the child was victimized, but that the trauma may have resulted in him pointing out the wrong person as the perpetrator. It happens. And a child custody case that I have worked on resulted in it coming out that the young person who had been accused was not the perpetrator. If an adult rape victim can misidentify a person as her rapist, why not a child? And I do not think it is victimizing the child to have doubts.
I have dealt with PTSD victims who have difficulty telling the difference between what really happened to them and the psychologically true, to them, story that is counterfactual. It is not a matter of a lie. It is a matter of mistake, of psychological trauma resulting in misidentification, etc.
Amy, I respect the work you do. But to question the accuracy of an account is not to attack the child. And we owe it to everyone involved to be open to alternative explanations for what is reported, by people of any age or circumstance.
I know a man who was in a bible study at my home who later had sex with a 16 year old girl — she came to his house to have sex with him. He is serving a 90 year sentence and must serve 60 to be eligible for parole. He was in his thirties at the time. He had refused the plea bargain and the judge piled it on.
An Attorney wrote:
I have no problem with questioning the verdict. I do it all the time-see Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson as alternatives. Yep-I still believe they “did it.”
What I do have a problem with is an entire community holding rallies, dances, church meetings, etc. while saying that a small kid is a liar. That little boy courageously went through hell by testifying. 4 years old! He needs some concern and support.
I suggested that we pray for the family. Then we hear from people in the community that the family is “nonChristian” which in Texas speak, means they are not worth praying for.
There is another problem. If Kelley had been exonerated, would people still be protesting and asking for a fair trial? This group has decided that Kelley is innocent. Period. So fair means exoneration and the little boy is standing in the way of that. So he deserves their wrath and bullying.
Amy was most kind on Twitter when this whole thing began. She talked about stats, studies, etc. She got called names and bullying anger was directed at her. That is when I realized that there was a problem.These teens would tell her to leave them alone because they are “only 19.” They would then proceed to post stuff about little kids who lie.
In the end, we have a right to choose who we believe. But, as Christians (which is what these kids and the people in that community claim they are) we have no right under the law of love to hurt little kids and nice people like Amy who try to tell the truth when it is not the truth that we want.
That community should be rallying around the child and showing love to him even if they believe their friend is innocent. But, they have made him a pariah.
I think child and his family have no future in that town. I pray they get the heck out of there.
@ An Attorney:
BTW, I think we are getting to them. We heard over the weekend that the narrative might be changing. Now, some are saying that the boy was molested, just not by Kelley.
Secondly, tonight there will be a vigil by some cringe folks in that town for the little boy. Finally, some people who get it.
This is about the “Christian” values being exhibited by the town.
dee wrote:
Exactly! We know the system isn’t perfect, but if innocence can be established by the amount of public support that can be created for a defendant then our justice system is pretty much worthless. Let the system play out and pray that justice is the result.
Here’s our SNAP statement sent to media this morning: http://www.snapnetwork.org/tx_church_to_hold_rally_for_admitted_molester?recruiter_id=33428
@ Amy Smith:
A guilty plea in a plea bargain does not mean that the person is admitting anything other than that he has been presented a Hobson’s choice and made one choice, and is doing what is necessary to live with that choice. Do not make more of it than that. The system forces those choices when one does not have the ability to prove innocence. His choice was between 25 years and (effectively) the rest of his life. You might say that the DA bribed/threatened him into taking the plea.
@ dee:
Understand again, that I would not suggest that the child has lied, but still could have misidentified the abuser. As I noted, adult rape victims misidentify their attackers, and people get convicted, and eventually (sometimes decades later) exonerated. And some of those people took the plea bargain on advice of their attorney.
Nice job on the interview, Dee.
JA
I hate doing interviews but will do so when it involves child sex abuse. Thank you.
1. Child sex abusers are almost always nice, beloved members of their community (in this case a church). This is how they ingratiate themselves into a community and gain access to children. 2. Children this young do not lie. 3. If you believe he is innocent, support him privately. Do not hold rallies, or bully the family. 4. If you need to resort to making up scenarios to support the abuser, you don’t have much to stand on.
I’ve read the comments sections of the news stories on this (I have also read everything on that ridiculous freegk site). The family is being attacked because a group of people can’t believe someone they like, a “nice guy”, would do something like this. They should educate themselves on child sex abusers, especially if they have, or plan on having, children themselves.
The main insane rationalization I’ve read so far from supporters on the boards is that it was probably actually a family member of the victim who was the abuser, and the whole case is a “cover up”. First of all, I don’t understand how that would work. Secondly, as someone who went through what this family is going through last year (daughter abused at a church daycare, abuser convicted and sentenced, church people showing abnormal amounts of support for someone with a criminal background, creepy behavior he actually admitted to on stand, and other stuff I won’t get into), I can tell you that the victim’s family is thoroughly vetted in these cases. In our case, we went to the police at 8 pm at night. CPS was at our house by 10 am the next morning for a surprise visit/interview. Thirdly, how sick and cruel, to say something like that on a public forum.
The family is often maligned in these situations, when, in reality, it is a child from a supportive, loving family who will actually have the ability to testify.
So my point is yes, this family is being bullied. I was bullied too, called all sorts of ridiculous things, including Bored Housewife like the ladies who run this site, even though I wasn’t a housewife (why do housewives get such a bad rap, anyway?) The bullies said I must have concocted the whole thing and gotten my daughter to lie for my own “entertainment” (whoever would even think of that – a child sex abuse trial as entertainment – is a sick, sick person). My husband, for whatever reason, was mostly spared. Perhaps because I was seen as weaker, or more vulnerable, by the church folk, who sat in the courtroom and snickered when I broke down during my testimony. These sheeple have no decency. They will stretch to any length to conjure up reasons why the child sex abuser could not possibly have done this, no matter who they hurt in the process. They do not know how ridiculous they sound to any sane person capable of independent thought, but, sadly, I suspect they do know the damage they are doing to the victim and the victim’s family, at least deep down. They know the truth deep down.
The young ages of the sex abuser’s supporters disturbs me. In our case, several supporters were young women, just like in this case, although my daughter’s abuser was not a young man. Have we failed our young women this badly? They do not know what is inappropriate, perverted, or just plain mean, especially on a public forum? Are these women going to have children some day? Would they side with a grown man over their own four-year-old son, because the man was a “good guy”? How many of them were abused themselves, and perhaps have not dealt with it? Statistically, some of them. These questions have kept me up at night.
I related very much to the commenter who pointed out that these things said on the internet will last forever. I have thought about the day when my daughter will search for her story, and read the awful things people said, even though of course they’re not true. But how horrible for her. Pain on top of pain. People can be so cruel.
As for the commenter who said there is no benefit to writing an open letter, that the family would not want it, he is absolutely wrong. He said he knows this from experience, but did not cite the experience. I suspect he is stretching the truth or lying. I would have loved for a letter like this to be penned for my family. I had tears streaming down my face reading it tonight. This family needs to know there are people out there who support them. They need to hear a little sanity and compassion, because they are facing a lot of insanity and brutality right now, on top of their already insurmountable suffering.
The David and Goliath story is so appropriate for this situation. My daughter drew the comparison herself before she testified (yes, our family is Christian, for those of you to whom it matters for whatever reason. What we are not is Pharisees, or sheeple). People know that story, including non Christians, so cut the garbage, whoever commented on that.
I wish I could travel to Leander on Aug 10th to stand in support of this brave young boy and his family. I can’t, so I will pray for them, Christian or not (that comment made me sick. God loves all). Dee, Amy, I don’t know who you are, or understand everything you do, but keep doing it!
I firmly believe there are two types of people. Those who can deal with situations of child sex abuse, and those who can’t. I firmly believe this man is guilty, and his supporters can’t deal with it. I am so thankful for that first category of people, those who can face the truth head on, shine the light on it, and get these monsters out of society. The police (the ones in our case were maligned, too, guess what, it’s called building a defense!), prosecutors, jury members, parents/guardians, family and other support people, social workers, mental health professionals, those who run support centers, doctors. But mostly, the brave young Super Heroes who stand up before their abusers, in a room full of strangers, and tell the truth.
(sorry to make this post a lot about our story, but I wanted to give the perspective from someone who has been through it, and I believe the more light we shine, the better)
1 comment not approved
@ Mom of a Super Hero:
Thank you for your convicting and thoughtful comment. If you would ever like to tell your story here, let us know. I am so, so sorry for the treatment that you received at the hands of some awful people.
Follow up post: One with Courage
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/07/one-with-courage.html