"If your organization is known more for the sins they're against and the message of God's judgment on unrepentant sinners, then right there is the reason why there are decreasing conversions."
Wade Burleson
Today we are featuring a commentary by Wade Burleson because it is an excellent prequel to a topic we plan to discuss in our upcoming post. The Southern Baptist Convention will convene next week for its Annual Meeting, and it appears that some denomination leaders plan to address a controversial matter. More about that on Friday…
Thanks, Wade, for allowing us to repost your timely article for our readers' consideration.
The Real Reason Repentance Is So Rare These Days
Wade Burleson
I never ceased to be amazed at the street evangelists who stand on corners and yell and scream at others about impending judgment. Not only is it irritating, the messengers don't seem to understand the utter futility of shouting "Repent!" and "God's judgment is coming!" The message of God's judgment toward sinners never leads sinners toward God. It just doesn't happen. It's impossible, according to Scripture.
The only thing worse is when preachers in expensive suits–men who don't look like wild-eyed maniacs–deliver the same message of impending judgment and expect conversions. The only difference between preachers in pulpits and those on street corners is that most sophisticated preachers speak of sin in terms of a nebulous and wicked 'society' or 'culture' rather than shouting at a specific person as he walks down the sidewalk. The spirit and message are the same. The message of God's wrath on the 'unrepentant' homosexual, drug addict, adulterer, alcoholic, and other named sinners never leads to change in any of them.
True repentance springs from God's goodness. The Bible tells us this. "It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance" (Romans 2:4).
When Law is constantly proclaimed in an effort for God's judgment and man's crimes to meet in the court of conscious, no true repentance will ever be produced. Sorrow, maybe, but no repentance. Regret, possibly, but no true repentance. Judgment proclaimed always leads people to flee from God, never toward God.
Evangelical, saving repentance springs from a believing view of a reconciled God in the face of Jesus Christ, and the incredible good news that God has an eternal love for sinners. Repentance and faith go hand in hand, for it is "repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). God's love for sinners in sending His Son, and the Son's finished work on behalf of sinners, contain both the spirit and message (grace and truth) that lead sinners to repentance toward God and faith toward Christ. These two things are never produced until the spirit in the messenger is one of love toward sinners and the message is one of God's goodness in Christ toward sinners.
If your organization is known more for the sins they're against and the message of God's judgment on unrepentant sinners, then right there is the reason why there are decreasing conversions.
Next time you feel tempted to clap and cheer at a convention for a thunderous message against 'homosexuals,' and 'transsexuals,' and other 'sexual sinners,' or a diatribe against alcohol and drug abuse, or a proclamation of God's judgment against our nation for the moral decay in Hollywood, or God's wrath on our culture due to the break-up of the traditional family, maybe you ought to sit on your hands.
We must regain the message of the goodness and grace of God toward sinners and begin to focus like a laser on the gospel and forsake our infatuation with Law and judgment or we will never see a turnaround in the numbers of people saved.
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 45:13-46:24 1 Peter 1:13-2:10 Psalm 119:33-48 Proverbs 28:11
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When I was a rambunctious,smart-mouthed,self-absorbed kid, it was my parents’ gracious response that made me ashamed that I had behaved badly towards them. Their love made me want to do better. They are the best model of God’s love I could have ever had, and I believe that Wade is right because I’ve seen it work – on me!
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Deebs…few things to say. 🙂
1. 135
2. 4 or so with no response
3. 1 Sovereign Gracer who refuses to forgive though in my heart I have forgiven him for betrayal. Guess those 135 or so must be wrong!! :-p
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The never-ending obsession with culture wars and what they are against as opposed to what they stand for is one reason of a few I’ve become disenchanted with the Southern Baptists, other conservative Christian groups, Republicans, and social conservatives.
I am still a social conservative myself, as well as being right wing. I’m still on board with a lot of their stances and positions (both social and theological), but I tire of how they carry it out, or how they never talk about anything else, and do not actually help people.
(At the same time, I’m no fan of progressives / left wing views and habits, their tunnel vision is just as bad on some of the same topics as folks on the right.)
I don’t have a problem with socially conservative Christians speaking their minds, but I wish they’d devote more (or equal) time to helping people and talking about Jesus too, and not just being “anti” this and “anti” that.
Wade said,
Something else that drives me bonkers, as a never- married virgin person who’s over 40 years of age, who’s never been into drugs or getting drunk (that is, I have tried to live out the Bible’s teachings on morality as consistently as I could):
Many of the men pounding the pulpit on these topics (e.g., sexual sin, etc) are later found to either be adulterers or drug addicts themselves, or to be involved in some other picadillo or another.
I wish Southern Baptists would catch on that entire groups of people get over-looked in all the “family values” shtick they love to devote so much time upon, such as widows, the divorced, married infertile couples, and never married people. What are Southern Baptists doing to help those sorts of people among them?
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Hmmm…on another blog a while back, I was accused of being a heretic (sigh) and told that if my 'conversion' did not come by having the Law preached at me, then it probably wasn't real. It is the same 'street evangelism' and 'Jack Chick' culture I grew up in….one that did not lead me toward God, as Wade said, and all but separated me from him – cowering in fear. I am still learning no to be afraid of (and expect) punishment. That verse "It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance."…..that is one that has contributed to the salvaging of my faith.
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Jeannette Altes wrote:
I’ve seen a lot of arguing about something similar the last several months.
A lot of Christians are arguing about Law vs. Grace, and should both be preached, if so, how much law in relation to how much grace, etc.
IMO, I think it depends on the person. If you look at every person Jesus spoke to, he changed his approach with them based on their reaction. Some of the people who approached Jesus already seemed aware they were lacking in some way, or guilty.
They didn’t need to get beat up with the law even more, because they already realized they fell short, but they were not sure how to be made right with God.
Jesus treated them a little differently than the guys who came up to him who felt they were already righteous and keeping the law.
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What about Nineveh?
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Jeannette Altes wrote:
I dunno…sounds to me a lot like some "confessional Lutherans" who believe you can't really be saved unless you've had the Law preached at you first, and then the Gospel. With all due respect to Wade, when I read stuff about repentance, it just amplifies my anxiety level considerably. Have I done enough repenting? Have I done the right repentance? Etc., etc. Yeah, it's probably OCD, but not quite scrupulosity.
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Let me share an opinion from the atheist pew. No matter the approach or the theology, be it the screaming street preacher or Wade Burleson, if the end result is non-Christians burn in hell forever, then it is all the same. The end result is that most of the human race will spend eternity in hell/Lake of Fire.
I don’t want to debate this. I just want you to understand how these discussions look from the outside.
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Screaming & name-calling never saved anybody.
And really, who WANTS to spend eternity with the kind of God that those screeching street preachers keep yelping about?? I mean, doesn’t it kind of seem like they are trying to make everybody run for all they’re worth, to escape God?? (Which, the way I read it, was kinda what Jonah,Ninevah, & the Great Big Fish are really all about?????)
PS: Bruce, I hear you, but I would submit that, as a preacher acquaintance of mine often points out, most Christians’ ideas about hell owe more to John Milton than to anything in the Bible. (Which I suspect is Wade’s thought, too).
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@ zooey111:
Well, I went to his blog and did a search for the word hell. He certainly believes there is a hell and that there is a clear line between saved and lost. Like many Evangelicals, he distances himself from the Miltonian view of hell, but his view is still just a nice version of the street preacher’s view.
I understand how and why he comes to the conclusions he does. My point was to make people aware of how these kind of discussions look to people on the outside.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I’m not a Calvinist, but I believe that the Bible presents this as a choice you can avoid, if you don’t want that fate.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Jesus Christ spoke of a place of torment in the afterlife, but the place he depicted does not sound nice.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I, for one, appreciate hearing your view. I think we may be talking past each other, but that’s OK. [See tip-of-the-hat smiley here].I don’t want to debate, either–My mother taught a speech class for high school juniors & seniors; she began 1st class each year by announcing, “I have no intention to teach debate; it’s sophomoric,& you’re too old for that now”. Me too.
(I’ll return this blog back to the Deebs now).
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
Jesus believed in hell. We can argue about what he meant. how such belief is to be applied, to whom is it significant, etc. We can argue about biblical vs cultural ideas. But the argument of how it looks is irrelevant. The only first and valid point of discussion is “is it true?” If no, then the discussion is over. If yes, the we can talk about what did Jesus mean when he said…whatever.
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I find it interesting that hell is not mentioned in the O.T. Correct me if I am wrong. Makes me rethink the issue.
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Garland wrote:
Well, what about Ninevah? I am missing the point here.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
There is an entire body of scriptural evidence that points to another point of view, one called Universal Reconciliation. In a nutshell, it encompasses the idea that because God loves everyone, and wants everyone to be saved, all WILL be saved through Jesus Christ. One of the best books on the subject, IMO, is Thomas Talbott’s “The Inescapable Love of God.” It also tied neatly together the “holes” in Arminian and Calvinist thought.
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I don't know about the rest of you, but fear of hell definitely impacted my decision for Christ. I believe we need both an understanding of God's goodness as well as God's wrath.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Love that phrase! I thought I sat on the atheist pew, but perhaps I’ve softened a bit and it’s the agnostic pew now. I hear you on the hell thing. Much Christian language now I see as talking past me, it feels foreign and I realise just how far I’ve moved away.
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Leila wrote:
Saved from what?
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Nancy wrote:
Ha! You can tell I’m in the hell mindset. “Saved” was the wrong term. I should have expressed it more as, God wants all to be reconciled with him for all eternity, and thus because he wills it, all WILL be reconciled. That’s why it’s called Universal Reconciliation.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I am grateful that you shared your point of view with us. This question is not meant to be a debate question. I am merely curious.
Given the fact that you are an atheist, and I presume that means that our bodies/psyche, etc. end at death, how do you feel about annihilationism?
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Jeannette Altes wrote:
If you are a heretic, can you imagine how they would view me? I became a Christian while watching Star Trek for goodness sake.
I think the word “heretic” is the defense mechanism of small minded people who see God as a celestial button pusher. he pushes the same buttons, in the same order, over and over. They do not get CS Lewis’ view “Aslan is not a tame lion.”
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Garland wrote:
In what respect?
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zooey111 wrote:
Great comment.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
One other question-sorry, this is the bane of my existence. I always have questions. Driscoll would have personally driven his bus over me if I had gone to Mars Hill.
Since you are an atheist, I will need you to play along with me on a couple of things. Assume we do have an immortal soul and that it is God’s intent for all to live out their immortality. Assume He is loathe to end the soul via annihilationism (my last question to you).
If God is as He is represented in the Bible, then there are many who want nothing to do with Him. How do you feel about a God who creates a place for those who want nothing to do with Him. In other words, He allows them to be separated from Him.
Perhaps hell has levels-one for the ones who just are not interested in God and other levels with punishment for evil men like Hitler. The Bible says there are varying rewards in heaven. Perhaps the same exists in hell?
Could hell, for some, be a place that God no longer interferes but allows those who are not interested to live out their immortality their way?
My thoughts on hell/annihilationism are in flux. Apparently so were John Stott’s since he became open to the idea of annihilationism at the end of his life. Since he was a great theologian, and I am not, and he couldn’t come to a firm conclusion, I do not feel bad for constantly revisiting the subject.
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zooey111 wrote:
This blog belongs to all of you.
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Leila wrote:
I promise that I am not debating you. I find these ideas interesting.
Since it looks like you have done some reading in this area, could you describe how justice is served for men like Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc.?
Also, how does this point of view deal with the angels who fell?
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Mark wrote:
I know that to be the case for a number of people. However, it did not enter my equation whatsoever when I became a believer. For me, the tipping point was the fact that the God of the Universe wanted to have a relationship with me. At the point, had you asked me about hell, I would have looked at your blankly. Love can win a soul without the threat of hell. That, of course, does not negate the doctrine of hell, etc.
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I think hell would be an interesting topic for scholarly discussion here if the Deebs decide to dedicate a post to it. After I became churchless, I wandered far from the bible, although I developed an enormous honesty with God. When I finally reopened the book, I determined I would look to the holy spirit to teach me, and where I came across a problematic passage, I would, with all the brain power i could muster, explore the ancient Greek language.
I have been astounded. Regarding the hell issue alone, I was hoping to find hell to be a place of eternal sleep, and instead, as I explore, it is shaping up to be a place of reconciliation. Of course, I could be wrong; that is why I continue to study.
I will leave you with one point: Being like a Berean does NOT mean you read the study notes in your bible or take sermon notes. It means you search the scriptures using all the tools you have available. In this day and age, interlinears, lexicons, historical accounts, etc are all available online. As Wade and others have pointed out the errors in the authority and women passages introduced by translators and
propagated by “teachers,” I have come to the conclusion that my understanding of God’s word is ultimately up to me. I really want to know him for myself.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
I guess if that were true, and Atheist wrote:
Obviously this man doesn’t accept the veracity of Scripture. How can an atheist accept what is written in the Bible, since it’s all about God and his involvement with our lives?
Yesterday I was meditating on the fact that Jesus Christ is the Truth. He is Reality. And the closer each of us gets to Reality, the more honest we become.
God didn’t hold anything back. He’s told us the Truth. In fact, He delivered to us the Truth and made it able for us to receive the Truth all in the same package. “Light has come into the world…but those who do evil hate the Light…”
In my view, one of the key elements of evil is dishonesty and a denial of reality. If Reality is Truth, and Truth is Jesus Christ, then anything that is in opposition to this is anti-Christ or a false reality.
I believe that the devil hates reality. Evil always attempts to seduce us into alternate realities, and within that for us to then believe the lie that that reality is True.
I cannot think of a more scary “reality” to live in than one that, in reality, is really an unreality.
Just imagine, for a moment, being stuck in a place where their reality becomes the lies they choose to believe with no possibility of ever breaking free of that. Where there’s no truth present – which is the reality the adherent choose when they rejected the truth and its corresponding freedom – and thus be stuck for all eternity living without relief within a world where coming to the truth is impossible, and to make matters even worse – the individual themselves never realizes the problem, and their “answers” or “solutions” they attempt to apply, provide zero deliverance in the vicious cycle of deception they become locked in.
To me that’s torture. That would be hell. And for some, it’s merely an eternal extension of the life they live now on earth. The test now is what a person does when confronted with the truth, and when they come into contact with the Light. Do they respond positively, demonstrating an openness or a willingness to interact with it?
Or do they just drop “their truth” on you, close themselves off, then leave without discussion or “debate”.
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Leila wrote:
So you are saying that people are saved from the condition of not being reconciled with God. The preacher-before-last at my church believed that. He said that he had been a traditional orthodox conservative (choose a word) before he went to seminary. Then he went to seminary and while there he became a non-traditional, non-orthodox, liberal (pick a word) universalist. Then with years in the ministry he had landed somewhere in the middle. Mercy. Where did you go to school? Duke.
Anyhow, the fellow had some arguments for various sides of the question. I think he must have learned them all at Duke, which is a good thing to say for a school. But what he was saying, and what you seem to be saying is that there is indeed something to be saved from. And that the message would be “be ye reconciled to God.”
I am good with that, except it has some problems. It is seems to be calvinistic determinism except more inclusive. So why would anybody need to be offered reconciliation with God if in fact it was a foregone conclusion and the recipient of the offer had no way to turn it down? And if, in fact, failure to reconcile with God now would have no actual consequences, it would just be postponing the inevitable. This would be the concept of irresistible grace. So the only question would be to what extent does God enforce His will on people? If one says totally, eventually, then one would have to say that the concept of double predestination would not be inconceivable either. So the only issue would be to figure out the mind of God on the issue, leaving man totally out of the picture.
At this point one could say that there are arguments on either side of the question. Yes, there are. But it would be essential to know which arguments are correct, just in case this level of determinism is not what God is thinking. So the individual would have to, I guess, believe as if this is not true while hoping that it is true, in order to cover all the bases. Here again, I can see where that would work, I guess, unless people made a preliminary choice (to hold off on reconciliation and let God solve it in the end) and it turned out to the the wrong one. But in any case that is the issue.
Did not B16, in a pre-pope document called “…dominus iesus..” touch on this? I believe he ended by saying that we must base beliefs now on the currently available divine revelation, and that no further revelation is expected but that sometimes there is further understanding of the existing revelation. That seem like a good position to take. Decide and act on what you know. Hope for whatever, but understand that it is just hope.
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dee wrote:
Love this!
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http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-workaholics/201203/understanding-the-dynamics-workaholism-narcissism
I’ve been reading about narcissism & workaholism and read the following this morning:
Guess is Dee disqualifies herself because shes too inquisitive, and cares about knowing and finding out what other people think as opposed to being oppressively preoccupied with her thoughts that lead her to not inquire of others!
@ Deb:
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@ dee:
I think annihilation is a well-intentioned attempt to move Christianity away from the perceived harshness of the Bible teaching on hell. People literally burning in hell means the God who created them suited them with a special body so they could be tortured for eternity.
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@ Paula:
What you are saying in paragraph seven is very like one of the characters/situations in “The Great Divorce” by C S Lewis. It was a former pastor who could not give up the search for truth even when given the opportunity to experience Truth itself.
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@ Daisy:
I am not concerned about that since I reject the very notion of the existence of the Christian God. The purpose of my comment was to point out how those on the outside view these discussions. I was a pastor for 25 years, so I have a pretty good idea about what the bible says. 😉
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@ dee:
Have you read CS Lewis The Great Divorce?
Now I’m asking you a question lol
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@ Nancy:
Of course, I would say NO, it is not true. Based on the evidence at hand, there is no proof that there is a hell. I am far more concerned about the “hell” in this life than I am a hell I am going to in the afterlife.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
I know you used to be an IFB pastor, but you are missing something here by being too literal. What kind of fire does not consume? What kind of fire does not produce light so that it burns without consuming in outer darkness? At this point surely one must stop and try to understand what Jesus was saying in the first place. Descriptive metaphor? Trying to explain something for which we have no reference point and therefore cannot adequately grasp? Using the concepts of the day to trigger peripheral nuances which have been lost to us?
There is a choice here; to say this makes no sense to me therefore it must not be true, or to say this makes no sense to me therefore I need more information/insight/understanding.
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@ Nancy:
Lolol!! I didn’t see this before asking Dee if she’s read that book. I read that book…Um, maybe 5-6 years ago. It stayed with me. Lewis always impresses me.
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In the book of Jonah, the preaching of impending judgment brought about a response of repentance. Perhaps saying that such preaching never works is too broad.
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Sorry, folks. I guess I’ll be in hell with Bruce. Not because I’m an atheist, but because I won’t worship a deity who has an eternal death camp for the ones he doesn’t like or don’t do the right repentance routine or believe the exact right things. I have standards, and one of those standards is that if it’s wrong for human beings, it better also be wrong for a deity.
Peter asked Jesus once how many times he should forgive a brother or sister who sins against him. “Seven times?” Jesus replied, “No, seventy times seven times!” (Matthew 18:21-22) If this is enjoined upon me, a human being, by a person described as both God and man at the same time, then why isn’t God bound by the same thing? Seriously…
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@ Paula:
Correct, I do not think the Bible is what Christians claim it is.
I am fine with debate, just not here. In a debate I would ask you for proof of your claim that there is a hell. Since I view the Bible no differently than a Harry Potter book, saying “the Bible says” would not be proof to me.
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Mark wrote:
So were you scared into believing God because you feared eternal wrath? Or am I missing something here?
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@ Nancy:
I stopped being an IFB pastor a decade before I stopped pastoring.
I don’t need more information. Sorry. After a lifetime in the Christian church, more information is not the problem. I know what the Bible says. I just reject it.
hell being metaphorical opens up an interpretive can of worms. I am fine with whatever someone wants to believe. My point in commenting was to share how these discussions are viewed from the outside.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
Or you mean the suffering caused by an unjust God whom we should all reject or blame. Or just be flat out cruel to. By simply saying he doesn’t exist. Which may just be your form of verbal abuse toward God, essentially saying “He’s a non-Person who can’t do anything right.”
I had a parent tell me that all growing up. I recognize the seeds of hated in that.
I don’t accept you saying my God is a non-Person who is non-existent when I know He’s nothing of the sort.
God is a Father, who has created us, and has not left us alone. He acknowledges more than our existence. Look at the birds of the air. They are provided for. You are provided for. Yet you think you’re a good person, caring about all the “hell” on earth, probably in far greater ways than those “Christians”, right?
Let’s hope that includes your children. And let’s hope you don’t relate to any of them as if they’re “non-Persons” who don’t exist anymore in your mind!
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There are some thinking traps which require caution. For example:
If God is good, and if God is all powerful, then God would of course do such and such. Since I do not see that happening then either there is no god, or else God is not good. The false assumption here is obvious; who am I to think that I know what ought to be done in any particular circumstance?
As to the matter of such and such, it makes no sense to me, therefore it makes no sense to anybody else because there is no sense to be made of it. Again: really? I am that smart? So why am I not rich and famous?
I do not like such and such idea, it makes me uncomfortable, I find it abhorrent therefore my only option is to reject the idea in toto. The false assumption here being that comfort is more important than truth.
I always heard, the way I learned in school, my favorite preacher whom I loved always said, so and so is recognized as an expert in this field, etc. The false assumption being that the speaker is correct because of one of the reasons stated combined with the idea that if someone is correct in one thing he would be correct in all things always. Obviously not. The issue and the arguments stand or fall on their own value, not on the reputation of the speaker.
If this one issue falls, then the whole construct on my belief system would crumble, and we know that the construct is correct so therefore this issue as understood must be correct. No so. The whole construct may need to crumble, might not crumble, but in either case to have a predetermined outcome does not say anything about the truth of the one issue. One does not believe one issue in order to produce a certain result but only if the issue itself is proven true.
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@ Jeannette Altes:
“I was accused of being a heretic (sigh) and told that if my ‘conversion’ did not come by having the Law preached at me, then it probably wasn’t real.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
what supersilly-ous horse$h#t (ed.).
my parents have a friend… you’ll need no more authentic Christian anywhere. In thinking about his 55 years of living life with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, he does not remember ever having “asked Jesus into his heart”, or having prayed any kind of initial sinner’s prayer, or having gone through any kind of “4 spiritual laws”, or having done anything else beyond the following:
“hmmmm, God, Jesus, are you real? I could use your help.”
people who march around with their checklist on their clipboards to verify that your “conversion”, baptism, motives, lifestyle pass muster (with their bugle under their arm, having just tootled reveille) are fussy one-dimensionaliites who also can’t possibly understand or appreciate art. (except for maybe a still-life bowl of fruit on a table).
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Green Leaves wrote:
Of course-some convert due to a fear of hell. It is interesting to contemplate that the destruction of a group of people is not threatened in the New Testament. Assuming that such a process is useful to conversion, why did God not continue the process in the New Testament?
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@ Paula:
I loved The Great Divorce. And ask me as many question as you like!!
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
Where do like to debate, Bruce? In places where you can call the Bible names like “It’s no different than a Harry Potter book” and receive laughs?
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
In my years lurking at atheist sites, I was quite impressed how many had great knowledge of the Bible. Some even knew it better than the Christians who showed up on those sites with the intent of witnessing to them. I respect that.
For some, conversion occurs due to knowledge. For others, it is something else.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Absolutely. It is interesting. My conversion was not due to “the Bible says.”
Another thing-you know the people who argue with Ken Ham about the age of the earth. No matter what proof of scientific investigation is presented to him, he rejects it. He says “the Bible says” and that is the end of the discussion for him.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I really, really like how you say this. I have attended a number of talks on “how to witness to ______ (fill in the blank.) I have found much of what I learned in these talks somewhat useless. Instead, I want to hear what those who do not accept my paradigm think about my paradigm.
Thank you for being willing to share that with us.
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dee wrote:
Same here. Not only did I not own a Bible, but outside of a few “snippets” here and there, did not know what it really was about other than the death and resurrection of Jesus.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
One last thing. I see this is your requirement, proof that there is a hell.
Here is my requirement: provide me with proof (not just your claims since what you believe about God is like a fairy tale to me) that you enjoy a healthy, functioning relationship with each one of your children, none of whom you are estranged from. And if there ever has been a problem in your relationship with anyone of them, that you personally took the initiative to resolve the problem and close the gap, even to the point of perhaps needing to lay down your own life for their sake, out of your love for them, and a demonstration of your commitment to them as their father.
Then we’ll talk.
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Mark wrote:
I think that a decision for Christ is different from knowing Jesus Christ. It might get someone’s attention though.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
There’s such a “confessional Lutheran” who comments frequently on Internet Monk. Every one of his comments sounds like a Theological Sermon.
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Paula wrote:
And check off your name on the “Witnessed To” list, because once Everyone in the World is Witnessed To(TM) and Makes Their Decision(TM), then The End will come.
Guess what, Heathen(TM)? You’re just another End Time Prophecy checklist item to trigger the End of the World.
(I am NOT making that up. One of my writing partners has told me about a Bible Translation/Missionary organization with just that motivation and goal. Once they translate the Bible into all these obscure tribal languages and the missionaries preach their altar calls in backwoods New Guinea or the Amazon, then Christ is cleared to come and end the world.)
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zooey111 wrote:
“And stop screaming. Nobody likes a religion with people screaming.”
— the original Internet Monk
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Pastor Burleson ‘gets it’. If there were more like him, Protestantism wouldn’t be in the triage mode that it’s in at present.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I really really appreciate what you are saying here, Bruce! I can’t tell you how many times I, as an egalitarian, have to listen to female subordinationists assume that I hold to my beliefs due to a lack of information (usually I can run circles around them in a scriptural argument). It’s patronizing when people take this tack. You probably hear things, too, like “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater,” and other such nonsense. I am a Christian, but it chaps my hide when Christians try to dismiss your very real experiences and proceed to tell you why your experiences are irrelevant.
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Daisy wrote:
Explanation’s simple. They’re self-treating and self-medicating without the danger of anyone finding out. A ManaGawd HAS to be a Perfect Spiritual Giant and present a perfect Godly Gospelly image. If he shows any flaw whatsoever, his congregation and colleagues could turn on him like a feral dog pack. (Especially if he’s taught them in an image that involves throwing Lukewarm and Apostates under the bus.) So if he has a problem, he has to self-treat in secret, without anyone that he can confide in or who could help him.
And you get recovering alcoholic Billy Sunday preaching Christless sermons against Demon Rum.
You get Rush Limbaugh, Number-one Fanboy of the War on Drugs while battling a secret Oxycontin addiction.
You get Ted Haggard, auditioning for the part of “more genteel Fred Phelps” until he got caught with a male prostitute.
And one day it all blows sky-high, probably with a lot of collateral damage.
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Well, I believe I have just done it. About pluck first the beam and about my rant about erroneous assumptions. I just went out and sprayed gallons of extra strength vine and brush eradicator on a chunk of my property. I have hesitated and hesitated to do it, because some of the stuff I just did in actually sells in little pots at the local garden stores for a reasonable amount of money. So every time I thought about it I thought, hey, I could dig it up, put it in pots, sell it off the back of my truck in some shopping center and waste not want not. But then just now I said, nutsy, that is a false assumption. Woulda, coulda, shoulda does not equate to did, will or even ought. Stop this and do something even if it is emotionally hard to do. So I did. I just sprayed into oblivion some things that had to go: english ivy, poison ivy and virginia creeper, but also a large amount of vinca, dwarf periwinkle (a form of vinca), pachysandra, liriope and even my blackberries. All five of the latter as well as some english ivy are sold in the garden stores. Arrggggh.
This area is technically subtropical humid. I did not grow up in subtropical humid. I value plants too much, and I hate to kill them. That gets to be a problem.
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dee wrote:
This is where I am. But my own pastor–and that pastor friend mentioned earlier–both assure me that their reading of Scripture is, that hell exists (in some form) but that it will be destroyed at Christ’s return. I therefore am pretty comfortable thinking that–as I horrified some friends [years ago] by saying– I don’t think that the monsters of history are sitting around in Heaven at a tea party with St Teresa of Avila, I don’t believe they are being tortured. They are just so far gone in their own darkness that they would HATE Heaven; it would, in fact, torture them to be there……
In fact, if I believed that God was sending people to some mountain of fire foreevr, I wouldn’t want anything to do with Him myslef. He’s not like that; if He were, Jesus wouldn’t have gone to the cross…..
This is, of course, just my own opinion…..
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@ dee:
I echo Dee, love your comments Bruce. I think much of the Christian apologetic movement is “pop” and trash. Lee Strobbel is at the top of the list for me. His books do nothing, and did nothing for me when I was in my faith crisis. What is needed is good philosophers and intelelctuals who can tackle these problems. Due to evangelcialism’s anti-intellectual nature there is really no significant body of work that does cholarly work on things like the Problem of Evil or what happens to those who never heard the Gospel. I quick trac from Cru does nothing.
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dee wrote:
Dee, I wouldn’t say I’m debating this either. I’m not an apologist for the UR point of view. I’m just one who is exploring it and intrigued by it, because the more I consider it, the more it makes sense to me in terms of the character of God.
The “Hitler Question” is one that often crops up. Here’s how committed UR folks address that:
1) Many believe that unrepentant sinners/monsters like Hitler go through a purgatory stage (cleansing and/or punitive) that God uses to further draw them to Himself. This would most closely answer your question of justice.
2) Christ took the punishment for the sins of Hitler just as He did for you and me. It may take longer for Hitler to understand and accept that (see above point), but the mechanism is the same.
3) Some believe that once our minds/bodies are renewed we will clearly understand our sin, repent fully, and reconcile with God.
4) Some believe that while God will reconcile all humans, the same may not go for rebel angels.
Scripture says that God will make ALL things new, and He will defeat ALL evil. If Hitler, Pol Pot, etc., are in eternal conscious torment, evil is not defeated, it still exists, though in torment. What would bring greater glory to God: to torment Hitler forever, or to bring Hitler from the dark side into the light?
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It isn’t politically correct for me to say this, as I currently attend an SBC, but there is the scriptural possibility that hell is a place of final choice. Maybe the refining fire really does purify. Maybe it really does annihilate the unrepentant. And maybe we really do have the free will to choose. And maybe all will ultimately choose Christ.
I simply don’t know.
I can argue from scripture for hell, for annihilation, and must admit the Catholics may be on to something with purgatory. I can argue from scripture for universalism.
Again, I simply don’t know.
But I do know this: simple justice demands consequences for evil. I recognize the evil in me, and believe it is also in all people. (Not that we are totally evil, or that everyone does evil. Just that we are broken.)
I recognize how awful those consequences are. And I am eternally grateful that my Lord took those consequences in my place.
I love and serve Him in response to that great Love, even though it took fear to show me how great that Love is.
How can I not want to spend eternity with Someone who would suffer so for me?
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Daisy wrote:
I just wanted to say that I am thankful for your testimony. You have been an encouragement to me personally, and I am sure to many of our other digital friends as well.
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Leila wrote:
I think that people who limit their “information” to the bible says and I have been in church all my life in fact have limited their sources of information. Whether they would change their minds or not about some particular issue is not the question. That is theirs to deal with. But I am not going to yield ground here in my belief that limiting oneself to church and the bible and then thinking that there is nothing to be learned beyond that– that is inadequate. Bruce thinks he has all the information he needs-church and bible. I do not think that. Simple. We disagree, he and I. He seems mad about it. I don’t. There is no problem here. He stated his opinion. He apparently expects some level of disagreement, at least I gather this from his website. So, he gets some disagreement. So?
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Garland wrote:
I am not sure a person can make a comparison with a culture that existed before Jesus in a very different dispensation (I’m not a dispensationalist, but that word is apropos here). And of course, we must recognize that (assuming Jonah is historical, and not a morality play) Ninevah was destroyed for its wickedness, so whatever happened in Jonah would have been temporary. I would go farther and suggest that a confusion of the Testaments might underly a lot of the poor teaching I have heard.
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dee wrote:
I got saved watching Star Trek too. No, wait, that was just the tingly man crush feeling I got for Picard. Belay my last.
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linda wrote:
Yes, yes, yes. Everything Linda said here!
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Well, here is another thing. In some christian traditions people “get saved” in some well defined experiential moment of time. In other christian traditions nothing of that sort is expected. So what happens when someone in either one of these traditions actually experiences faith according to the other traditions’s expectations rather than conforming to their own traditions’ expectations. What happens when some catholic “gets saved” totally within the catholic milieu? Does he then think that maybe he is not a catholic after all?
I grew up SBC, and I never “got saved.” I have experienced faith more like a lot of the catholics I met in RCIA said they experience faith, as a developmental process with many variables. When I realized this as an older kid at church camp one year I made up a testimony about how I got saved, and apparently they were somewhat disappointed that it was not more dramatic but nobody guessed it was pretense. What I am saying is this, that I think it is not the best thing to judge anybody else’s religious realities by too rigid an experiential standard.
Nobody goes to hell specifically because they were baptized as an infant. Walking the aisle and shaking the preacher’s hand is not better than confirmation after confirmation classes. Nor is it necessarily a bad thing. We are different. Jesus wanted people to believe him–why? well, because he was telling the truth, or else because he came from the father, or else because of the miracles they saw–seems that he would take whatever worked just so people believed him. Believing is important, I think crucial, but then I am not a calvinist. But procedure? Not so much.
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linda wrote:
I’m going to hell, then. Because I can’t spend eternity with someone I know is frying the flesh off someone I love and care about, because they didn’t believe the right way or didn’t confess all their sins in just the right manner.
And nobody will answer my question as to why it’s absolutely, totally and completely wrong for dictators to have concentration camps and death camps, but it’s perfectly OK for God Almighty to do the same thing–forever. I don’t believe in divine command theory (i.e., if God does it, it’s automatically right). I’m supposed to forgive seventy times seven–why not God? I’m supposed to love my enemies–why not God? And don’t tell me that hellfire is love. That’s bogus.
If you (and not specifically referring to linda here, there are several people who might want to think about this) truly believe that if you don’t believe the right things, you’re going to hell, then *what are you doing about it?* It’s what I told that pastor back a quarter-century ago. If you’re wanting to get the reality of hell into people’s lives, then why aren’t you accosting every single person you meet with this reality? Well, beyond the fact that it would be insanely obnoxious, and we know how people generally feel about street preachers and persons shoving hellfire and damnation tracts in our faces, I would submit it’s because deep down, you really don’t believe it’s true yourself.
If I believed that people were going into hell right now because they weren’t getting the right gospel, I certainly wouldn’t be typing this on a blog. I’d be out “rescuing the perishing.” The fact is, I don’t believe this. I’m quite willing to stake my eternity on that, because I WILL NOT believe it and I have good reasons not to believe God is the cruel monster of hellfire and damnation.
I am also of the opinion that none of us has got it right about God and we’re dependent on God’s grace in the end.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Certainly I was fearful of the consequences of rejecting Christ. I think that’s true of most people, unless I’m missing something.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I’d like to know the answer to that question, too! I’m with you on this one 100%.
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Jonah Goes to Nineveh
3 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”
3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. 4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming,
*
“FORTY MORE DAYS AND NINEVEH WILL BE OVERTHROWN” (Short and pithy message no?)
*
The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.
6 When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:
“By the decree of the king and his nobles:
Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
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@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
I wish you would do something for me. I read every word you write and I think you have a good mind and a good heart. That is not flattery-I really do. If you have not read it, please read “The Great Divorce” by C S Lewis and tell me what you think. It is very short. It is about heaven and “hell” understood a little differently with specific made up little character shots of some people who choose heaven and some who do not. It does not resemble anything you have just said in your comment, but it bears reading and discussing. Mostly because what he says in it represents the thinking of a lot of people on this issue.
I am thinking that what Lewis describes may well be close to the truth, and I am thinking that Jesus, knowing the alternatives may have viewed with horror what we may view only with a little sadness or perhaps some pity, but not the way He might have seen it. He might have described something like this quite differently than I would have. Obviously I do not know, but I would love to get your take on it. And this is not some challenge. I am not above issuing a challenge, but this is not that. This is curiosity. I would like to know how someone with your stated feelings would react to Lewis’ ideas on this subject.
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Follow up thoughts on Jonah’s message which truly was the much hated “Turn or burn.”
*
A couple years back I was downtown eating lunch in “the park” (every city has one) and there was a guy standing on a bench screaming a “turn or burn” message. I think no one was listening but I was – out of curiosity mostly. It was evident, in his case, he was not there for a dialogue, he was there for a rant – and he did it fairly well.
Coming from a prim and proper background – restrained evangelicalism – I would be way too embarrassed to do what the street preacher was doing. But he was doing what Jonah had done.
*
What was the difference between my street preacher and Jonah? In Jonah’s case; GOD SHOWED UP. It’s really that simple.
*
I was sitting in a seminary chapel service one day and the preacher de jour was sharing an experience he had. He’d been invited to speak at this Baptist Church. After the hymns/announcements etc. He gets up to speak. He finds himself saying, much to his surprise, “Is there anybody here who needs to get saved?” And before he had opened the Scripture, made his introductory statement or began the sermon, people started coming forward. He muttered to himself, “God, what are YOU doing here?” Because he totally understood that if you get up to speak and before you do ask people of they need to be saved, and they come forward, NOBODY is going to come forward – unless God is in it – big time.
*
So Wade is right, in a non miraculous sense. Don’t waste your time trying to recreate Jonah yelling “turn or burn” because it won’t work – Unless God is in it. And then, of course, it ALWAYS works.
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Garland wrote:
Sometimes the Bible is just an historical narrative about what and where way back then. Sometimes it has no application to the here and now at all, although there is no shortage of teachers & exegetes who can manufacture just about anything from the pages of Scripture.
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Paula. I am not comfortable with your comments to Bruce. He doesn’t believe there is a God. He just doesn’t. He is entitled to his beliefs and can express them here according to the moderators. I don’t see any ‘seeds of hatred’ in his comments and I don’t see any reason for you to be challenging him about his relationship with his children.
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@ Paula:
Paula,
I have no idea what your point is or why your knickers are in a knot. I left a simple comment, an observation from someone on the outside of the endless debates Christians have over who is right, who is wrong. My point was/is…it doesn’t matter to me. The street preacher can scream his truth and Wade Burleson can smile as he shares his truth…the end game is still the same. Someone like me is headed for hell. All the other beliefs and debates are just details.
I don’t debate period. Not my game.
As far as the Bible. I simply stated how I view the Bible. You do realize the Bible is an inanimate object? I doubt IT is going to object if I compare it to Harry Potter.
In the past my comments here have been appreciated. If they are not any longer appreciated then I won’t leave them. If you want to specifically talk about my children (for some reason you have mentioned them twice and brought them into this discussion) please come to my blog and I would be more than happy to talk to you.
I won’t comment further.
Bruce
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@ Marsha:
I must have been typing my comment as you were posting yours. 🙂
Thank you.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
I appreciate your comments. Please hang around, share your thoughts.
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Follow up to the follow up. Sadly in your life time you may NEVER see the extraordinary work of God. Remember the Jews went 400 years or so without a prophet ( the inter-testament period).
*
I believe I saw the presence of God once in my checkered college career. I think’s Wednesday chapel, the Dean of Student, Ron Cline gets up to announce that the schedule had been changed; then he introduce this young man from Asbury College to share what’s been happening at Asbury. Basically, it appeared that true revival had broken out. Kid were going to chapel and not leaving, for hours at a time. So all this young guy does is tell us what’s been going on at Asbury and a few other colleges. Then he sits down.
*
Ron Cline stands up and says, “Well what about it guys.”
*
At that point they poured forward, some of them running, tears streaming, a lot of crying. And they stayed, for hours, and it changed the campus.
* Though I didn’t go forward, certainly didn’t cry ( too cool for school ) and stayed only a hour or so past time it ultimately changed my life too. My ‘n God had been having an argument about this girl I was sure I wanted to marry. I had felt an “uneasiness” in my spirit about that but I was in the “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead” mode. I told God that evening, “If you don’t want me to marry this girl, you can stop me.” HE DID – only a little painfully but stop it He Did thru a “funny” confluence of events.
* It’s been many years since that revival, surely there will be another but perhaps not in our lifetime.
*
If God is in it, it will just take one person to say, “Well what about it guys.” And the Holy Spirit will do the rest. I can feel the chills to this day, and it was many, many years ago.
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@ Marsha:
+10.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Personally I thought your comments provided food for thought.
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@ Bruce Gerencser: It can look that way to insiders as well, Bruce.
I am an xtian universalist now, along the lines described by Robin Parry (aka Gregory McDonald). See http://theologicalscribbles.blogspot.com
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@ Nancy: There is a *big* problem with the words Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus all being translated into English as “hell,” though.
Hades (like the OT Sheol) is the abode of the dead. Period. It’s not a place of everlasting torment.
I seriously question the belief that many hold re. eternal conscious torment, though neither am I an annihilationist, as I do not see that view as being consistent with the love, mercy and grace of God as shown in Jeus Christ and the rest of the NT.
I think evangelicalism is wrapped up in what is sometimes referred to as “wretched urgency” (see recent posts on internetmonk.com for more on that), and that this view has little or nothing to do with the Gospel as presented by Jesus himself.
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@ Leila: Preach it, Leila!
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@ dee: A few months back, a commenter here called me a “heretic” because I believe in substitutionary atonement but *not* penal substitution. Oh, and because I support marriage equality.
But I believe in both the Apostles and Nicene Creeds.
Go figure…
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“Judgment proclaimed always leads people to flee from God, never toward God.”
That’s why I could never understand picketers at our local abortion facility. The love from the pregnancy center and support for new moms seemed like a better way to reach a needy, hurting heart.
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@ Bruce Gerencser: Bruce, please stick around! I’m sorry someone lobbed grenades at you.
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Marsha wrote:
Not to pile on, Paula, but I have to agree here.
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@ numo:
I think that the approach you are taking is entirely valid. Discussing, wrestling with, pick a terminology as to what this or that means is absolutely essential. I am not ready to say, well whatever it is I do not like it therefore I do not believe anything substantive about it. Jesus talked about something. The way Matthew arranged his gospel he has Jesus talking more and more about eternal consequences the closer he got to the cross. I don’t know if this is just how Matthew set it up, or whether Jesus actually did it that way. I have wondered if he kept reminding himself of why he was going to the cross, the closer it got. That is just speculation, however, and I really try not to speculate too much.
Anyhow, I see a world of difference in trying to understand possibilities on the one hand, and not trying to understand possibilities on the other hand. I appreciate your comments.
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@ Nancy: I do not see any indication that he meant people to suffer for all eternity.
If anything, like Dee, I think C.S. Lewis’ fictional treatment of the afterlife (in The Great Divorce) is likely *far* closer to the truth than the “burn in hellfire forever” stream of xtianity – that is fear mongering, at its worst in things like Jonathan Edwards’ ghastly “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” I don’t see Jesus attempting to scare people in that manner, and the Father he speaks of looks *nothing* like Edwards’ wrathful god (lowercase g is deliberate).
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Maybe I am wrong here, but is it that some people think that God would not permit negative consequences? Or is this discussion based on the descriptive terminology about said negative consequences if such exist? Or some of one and some of the other?
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@ numo:
Yeah, we have been talking about The Great Divorce some here, and I have tried to get mirele to read it and comment. I like those ideas. Did you read my comment on that above? I don’t know that the fact that I like it means anything one way or the other, but there is a lot of food for thought there.
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@ Nancy:
And thanks for your kind words – they (and you) are appreciated.
Sometimes I think it is helpful to set aside preconceived ideas and get fresh perspective on these admittedly ancient texts. I have a sneaking suspicion that the ideas and imagery re. hell that started developing in the Middle Ages (and forward) would be completely foreign to the early church. (Depictions of hell in xtian art don’t begin until many, many centuries after the NT canon was written, either – lots of imagery that we take for granted is, in fact, a relatively recent development.)
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@ Nancy:
I think Lewis’ purpose was to provide food for thought, as well as to entertain.
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numo wrote:
Matthew 10:28 New International Version:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:46 New International Version:
6 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 13:38-43, New International Version:
38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.40″As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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And let me raise this issue. In medicine we use the threat or even certainty of negative consequences all the time to get people to change their behavior. Stop smoking, or else. Diabetics, stay on the diet and take the meds or else. Quit with the risky sexual behavior or here is what will happen. Stuff like that. I am not sure why people would be apt to change thinking or behavior regarding their bodies based on the threat of negative consequences and yet similar warning regarding spiritual issues would have the opposite effect. There are obviously variables here that I do not understand.
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When I read this article I thought he would be talking about why real repentance is so rare among wayward pastors. Why is it so hard for the big-dog Calvinists often discussed here (e.g., Driscoll, Mahaney) to repent, when evidence appears that any reasonable person would agree shows wrong-doing?
CJ Mahaney recited for years the mantra "preach the gospel to yourself every day," yet he obviously concluded in many ways that the gospel's core of repentance-and-asking-forgiveness-of-God-and-those-wronged doesn't apply to himself. (ed.)
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In final sentence of my comment above, I meant to say “doesn’t apply to himself.”
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doug walters wrote:
There are two ‘spins’ on this question (both claiming the ‘authority’ of Scripture) and it depends entirely upon what each person is persuaded by in his or her own mind. My own personal belief is coincident with ancient rabbinic thought (pre-Hellenism), namely that ‘salvation’ has to do with bodily resurrection and whether or not one has any inheritance in a world (or worlds) beyond this one. I reject the Western Augustinian & Medieval paradigm.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Thanks so much for sharing your insights. I appreciate hearing your perspective.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
Bruce asks for proof of something unseen (hell). He states he is an unbeliever who doesn’t believe in God, the Invisible.
He states he’s more concerned about issues on earth, that he cares about problems that exist in the here and now.
I’m merely asking for proof. It may be hard for someone to provide him with the extraordinary proof he asks for, but it isn’t hard for someone to prove if they have a good relationship with their children, or if they didn’t to provide evidence of the steps they’ve taken to amend and heal the relationship.
He denies the Bible, right? Says it’s all a big, fat fairy tale. Yet, within that book we read about Someone who loved His children so much that He laid down His life for them, that they might be reconciled to Him. Jesus spoke if the Shepherd who leaves the 99 to go after the 1 that’s gone astray, and a father that cared so much for his son that when he returned threw him a feast.
Yet here comes Bruce, with his remarks, riffing on God, calling the Bible nothing more than a Harry Potter book. You may not agree, but in that I sense a cruelty, a motivation that I don’t find sympathy for, the kind of person who is willing to write off people like they don’t exist and find strength in it. Not just strength, an identity.
If he is so ready to say there isn’t a God, and demand of others to provide proof of His existence through their acts of charity that work to relieve the hell on earth he’s so concerned with, surely he would be willing to provide proof of his own. That he’s better and can do without the One who came to die for you for me – who laid his life down to reconcile us to Him.
Because this is where the proof lies people. This is where it’s all at. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God demonstrated His love for us. Demonstrated it. Provided proof. And that proof lies in the fact He took the initiative to bring us back and reconcile us to Him. That is my God. I love Him and I can’t thank Him enough for doing this, for Jesus Christ. This is love, manifested. Proved.
Just a simple thing then. Since Bruce has no respect for God. Doesn’t attribute love to Him. I’d like him to prove his love his concern, his commitment to improve life on earth. And where does that start? For God, it started with His children. And that’s why I’m asking Bruce about his. Simple. Something we can all relate to, right? And has he done something more for his children then what people read that God did for his in the Bible?
If not, then maybe, just maybe Bruce is someone I’m ready to be all sympathetic to and shower with understanding, acceptance and compassion. I need proof before I’m ready to believe in him.
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@ Nancy:
“…
surely one must stop and try to understand what Jesus was saying in the first place. Descriptive metaphor? Trying to explain something for which we have no reference point and therefore cannot adequately grasp? Using the concepts of the day to trigger peripheral nuances which have been lost to us?
There is a choice here; to say this makes no sense to me therefore it must not be true, or to say this makes no sense to me therefore I need more information/insight/understanding.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
I choose the latter. But expect that information/insight/understanding can only be extremely partial (as in only in part). And to try to relax and be ok with that.
I love learning and knowing and understanding… but there comes a point where understanding into transcendent/spiritual/otherworldly things stops, and from there we can only stand at the edge & look off into the mists in wonderment. But not spend too much time doing that. It an be a real time waster. (not that I think our conversation has reached that!)
I even think Jesus at age 30-33 had limited knowledge and understanding into these things. More than any other human, but I think there were limitations.
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@ Paula:
*maybe Bruce ISNT someone I’m ready…
Typo
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And I for one do not believe that all who die without God will receive the same outcome. I do believe that those who have done great evil will pay a greater price of some sort for that evil and those who were good people but did not profess Christ will not receive horrid punishment. Because in that case, God would not be a god of justice.
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Paula wrote:
From my perspective, it’s not about accepting or not accepting — as if Bruce must have your approval/acceptance to believe what he believes any more than you need his. It’s about hearing someone’s opinion and respectfully agreeing or disagreeing. You may not have intended your comments to come across this way, but I read them to be that you believe that you are the arbiter of his belief system. You aren’t. None of us are.
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
It wasn’t a challenge. Just asking for him to provide proof of himself. He’s asking for proof for God, or at least the existence of something mentioned in the Bible.
But Bruce exists, right. If he has children they exist right. I’m not asking if he mows his grass or trims his trees. I’m asking him to provide relational proof. Fair game as far as I’m concerned.
And don’t tell me that’s too personal. It gets personal when someone says the things he said.
It would be like if you had a beloved sister, for example. Someone you know without a doubt was the most caring, kind, compassionate person you’ve ever know. Their while life has been devoted to relieving the suffering caused by sin in this world, wherever and whenever they can. And she wrote a book, a best seller, that people have read the world over and because of it have been inspired to do good and love others,too.
But she had an enemy, who came here, and told everyone it was a lie she even existed and her book was crap. You might feel something. At least I hope you would.
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elastigirl wrote:
Me too, me too, me too. This is something I see missing in “severe” protestantism that is there elsewhere, the idea of mystery. If we say, this is as far as I can go and beyond that is mystery, then we have recognized that there seems to be something more. If we say, here is the answer so memorize it and then you will know all you need to know (or even all there is to know) then we build a wall between ourselves and the possibility of mystery. I can’t wrap my mind around the idea that we know all that much yet.
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@ Sara:
I’m not the arbiter of his belief system. That’s reading in to it. Of course he’s free to think as he chooses. I’m not afraid to challenge him though. I have a personal relationship with the One he’s talking about, too. This isn’t just academic for me. Are you suggesting this should be academic for me?
I’m also not always like this. It isn’t like I always take this approach. So, please don’t make too many assumptions here about me and my heart or my motives. He’s free to say what he wants right? Am I free not to pander to it?
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@ Paula:
Let’s assume the wonderful sister story is true. i say that I don’t believe she existed for one second. You could tell me to pound sand. Or you could introduce me to your sister. Talk about what she meant in your life. Show proof that she did exist. Explain how close you were and what you learned from her. Maybe introduce me to more of her friends who could tell me stories of her.
I would assume that your wonderful sister would have been loving and kind. So, through your loving and kind manner you could demonstrate what an effete she had on you as a person. Perhaps she cared for the disabled and now you, in her honor do the same. Perhaps when she smiled, her smile lit up the room around her and now you smile as well.
The early Christians formed burial societies. The Roman culture showed little concern for the bodies of the poor, most of whom were not Christians, often dumping them into the garbage dump where they would burn. The Christians offered to care for the bodies of the deceased and treated them with dignity, cleaning the body, wrapping them in cloths and icing them dignified burials. This above and beyond service attracted many to the faith.
Sometimes, it is the love and patience with which we treat people that bring them to wonder about our faith.
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@ Don:
True humility exhibits itself in the willingness to say “I’m sorry.” And that is why TWW is not enamored of Mahaney’s book on Humility.
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numo wrote:
I think we owe most of our imagery regarding hell to Dante Alighieri. I read Inferno when I was a teenager. It was scarier than any hellfire and damnation sermon.
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Love the discussion here and the sense of community, even though I don’t post much.
But a few quick thoughts: it was the late Richard John Neuhaus’s wonderful little book, Death on a Friday Afternoon, that turned me into a “hopeful” or “quasi” universalist. After that I read von Balthasar’s Dare We Hope All Men Be Saved? which clinched the deal.
For the record, I can still say the entire Nicene Creed with no fingers crossed behind my back.
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An Attorney wrote:
We have so many of these issues like justice and mercy or law and grace for example in which we have to walk a tight wire between the extremes never knowing exactly where to settle. I wonder why that is? Could not God have explained himself more precisely? Maybe there is something going on here about the very acts of thinking, feeling and deciding that are part of the process of whatever it is that God is doing with people.
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@ Paula:
I readily recognize that you and many other people find comfort, peace, and direction in religion. I have no objection to that. It is not for me. I spent 50 years in the Christian church, 25 years in the ministry. Been there, done that.
As far as my kids are concerned. I have six children and soon to be ten grandchildren. We love each other and would do anything for each other. I live where I do because all of my children and grandchildren are within 20 minutes of my home. I see all of them most every week. We are a close knit, tight family.
So, if you are asking me to compare my family to the Christian God, hands down my family wins. God and I got a divorce almost 7 years ago and I ain’t seen her since. My children? Married to God or divorced, they love me and help me and I do the same for them. God promises to never leave or forsake us, yet we have no evidence of this other than a “feeling”. My children have promised the same, as I have to them. I can reach out and touch them and know they are real. We love and respect each other regardless of our differences in belief. (atheists, agnostics, Catholics, Baptist, and none of the above)
So, I am not sure what you are looking for. I get it, you don’t like the fact that I dissed your favorite book. Sorry about that, but I think it is a bad book that has been used to hurt countless people.(and the belief in a literal hell is an abhorrent belief morally and theologically) Every day I get emails and blog comments from people who were harmed by men and women who hurt them with one hand while holding the Bible in their other hand. I have seen too much ugliness done in the name of God to think very highly of the Bible . Come over to my blog and read some of the comments left by your family members. Every one of them quotes the Bible before they start hating and bashing.
I said in my previous comment that I would not comment again. You made your demand clearer so I thought I would try to provide what you wanted. So, I have, end of discussion. My intent really was to just leave a simple comment and not get drawn into a discussion like this. Such is the nature of the internet.
I am not hard to find if you want to discuss or debate these things further. (publicly or privately)
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@ numo:
It’s Ok. I am a casual reader. I appreciate the good work TWW does. I am not anti-religion as much as I am anti authoritarian, fundamentalist, exclusivist religion. I spent most my adult life in the Christian church and 25 of those years as an Evangelical pastor. I have been exposed to the good, bad, and ugly of Christianity and have been the good, bad, and ugly Christian myself.
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@ Paula:
sigh…if your faith is so strong, then why do your comments seem overly aggressive. Your asking Bruce to be an upright citizen before you will engage his question.
What if Bruce was divorced and estranged from his children, ho would that make his question any less valid?
Are only good married folks worthy of your attention?
I very much doubt you intended to come across this way, but you might want to ask yourself if you would feel like engaging someone on an agnostic/atheist site who demanded proof of your relational status with family before they would answer your question. How would that make you feel?
Just my two cents from the agnostic pew of the TWW….
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Hey Bruce. Welcome. I’m anti all the same things you are. And that god you don’t believe in? I don’t believe in him either. He’s waaaaaaay better than I was taught, and far better than I taught others about him. In fact, I’d say as a group, we slander his character on a regular basis and think we are protecting his honor. In fact, I was excommunicated from an evangelical church for “dishonoring the name of Jesus Christ” and “with the full support of heaven.” It was with the Jesus I found after that experience that I have known real peace and real joy. Sometimes church is just a good place to be from.
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It has been my experience that a lot of supposed Christian leaders can teach repentance but not practice it themselves. Examples include C.J. Mahaney, Dave Harvey, Bob Weiner (Maranatha Ministries), Bill Gothard, etc.
A shame many don’t practice what they preach.
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@ Bruce Gerencser: Bruce, like many here, I got badly burned by an authoritarian church. Also, my background is Lutheran, and there’s an understanding that the church is for everyone, as well as – for the most part – an acceptance of our humanity that’s greatly lacking in most evangelical circles.
Although I don’t currently attend church, I am a revert to the synod I grew up in, as a lot of its core principles seem to be consonant w/what I see of Jesus in the Gospels. Though very far from perfect, it is a better fit for me than evangelicalism ever was.
Also, most Lutherans don’t put an emphasis on hell. So even though I kind of felt that I had to believe in it during my years as an evangelical, it was never what you might call my strong suit.
As for “grenades,” I get frustrated when folks here start lobbing them at others. Truth to tell, I’ve had a few come my way! 🙂
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@ raswhiting: I think you might want to check into the actual words that are customarily translated as “hell” in English. See my comment a bit upthread on this.
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So, the point of the post is, don’t be a street evangelist?
Or, is it for us to forsake our infatuation with sin?
I encourage Wade to do a study on the works of law versus the works of the flesh and the works of the spirit. The works of law (Old Covenant) are gone, but we are to avoid the works of the flesh. Scripture tells us about heaven that, “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
To brush off sin because of the innovation of Sola Fide is quite tragic. I am pretty sure Wade believes what Martin Luther said, “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
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And… I might get flak for this, but here goes.
I wonder why so many folks are so passionate about eternal hell – I mean, ???
I think there is SO much more that’s worth focusing on than that.
And… I also think a lot of people view heaven as a celestial gated community, where Those People (whoever they happen to be) will be kept forever outside the walls while We get to have our cake and eat it too. You know, kinda like an eternal Jim Crow system.
I do not, cannot and will not put any stock in the kind of god who would endorse such an Us-Them dichotomy, and do not believe for one second that Jesus and his Father are like that. But us -well, we’ve all got our own prejudices, our own version of Those People. Me, too. And that is just flat-out wrong. It’s so easy to makes others into scapegoats for our own flaws, weaknesses and wrongs against others, isn’t it?
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Bruce, I absolutely agree. As I read later you were and IFB pastor I believe? I too left Christianity and arrived at atheism. It’s fascinating to be on the outside looking in. I appreciate your comments, hell really is one of the most difficult things about Christianity that I can wrap my head around in regards to why it is so easily and casually accepted.
And to most commentators, I appreciate the easy and friendly discussion space that is here on TWW. It’s nice to be able to engage and understand other beliefs to me, and y’all make it easy.
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THC wrote:
How do you know that he has not done so? And if he did so and came out to this conclusion, what say you?
THC wrote:
So, how do you avoid all that is impure and deceitful? I look forward to your instruction in this matter since it seems that I am not perfect in this matter.
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
I sent you an email earlier this evening. Please know that you are welcome here.
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Nancy wrote:
Are there only two alternatives: consequences/no consequences? Or do we all (including those who are presently in relationship with God) experience consequences for every moment that we resist Him? After all, Scripture says He “chastens His sons” (sorry, not going to look up the reference for an exact quote). I’m getting to where I see this NOT as a “punishment” type of consequences, but as the natural outflow of stepping out of relationship with Him (e.g. what you sow, you reap). And the longer we continue to resist Him (even beyond this life?), the more extreme the consequences may be – without being infinite/eternal, and with His goal being to lead us to repentance/reconciliation at some point?
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Loving this discussion. Re: the specific question of an eternal fiery hell, note what YHWH Himself says in Jeremiah 19:5 and again in 32:35 to the people who passed their own children THROUGH A FIRE: “I did not command it, neither did it enter my mind.” Surely He is not just saying He doesn’t want them to sacrifice to Moloch. Isn’t the idea of a parent burning his own child abhorrent to God as well as us?
Then again, those who are in Christ are His children (e.g. John 1:12). As far as I know, Scripture doesn’t guarantee membership in God’s family to anyone who’s not in Christ.
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One more comment. Whatever the actual state of the (presently) unredeemed after death, the picture of a fiery hell where people suffer eternally in immortal bodies comes from Greek mythology – not Scripture. The preexistent immortal soul is a pagan Greek idea. Just wanted to throw that out there.
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@mirele and @numo and @texaswildflower
Agreed, the Middle Ages and Dante are responsible, absolutely! I didn’t see your comments until after I posted. The medieval church was totally steeped in pagan culture, far more than the early church.
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I should have been more clear. I wasn’t bringing up Nineveh to respond to the message in general, but to this statement:
“The message of God’s judgment toward sinners never leads sinners toward God. It just doesn’t happen. It’s impossible, according to Scripture.”
I’m certainly not trying to endorse corner preachers or others focusing inordinately on God’s wrath and judgment. I’m not even disagreeing with what Wade is saying, just how he supported it. I think that, when one makes a statement claiming scripture as its authority, it really should address scripture in depth rather than just quoting a single verse out of context. Prooftexting like that makes a strong argument weaker and, in my opinion, has a negative effect on dialogue in general.
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@ texaswildflower: I’ve read a lot of Greek mythology and ancient Greek poetry and plays, and nowhere is there a place of eternal punishment. The abode of the dead is calls Hades, and it isn’t anything like what you’re saying. It is the Underworld, and not exactly a joyful place, but it isn’t even remotely related to the hell depicted by fire and brimstone types.
There is another, happier side to the afterlife for some – the Elysian Fields.
But Hades is very closely analogous to the various ideas re. Sheol in the OT.
As for the immortality of the soul, are you thinking of Plato? My take, fwiw, is that just because he was Greek doesn’t mean that he was necessarily wrong. 😉
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@ numo: sorry, I neglected to mention Tartarus, which the Greeks believed was a place w/in Hades (the underworld) where *some* demigods and people were punished.
The word is used a couple of times in the NT, but again, the meaning isn’t the same as the common evangelical understanding of hell.
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texaswildflower wrote:
There’s also been some suggestion (but, as I’m not a scholar of Dante, I can’t comment on proof or not) Dante got a lot of his ideas about hell from Muslim writings. It’s for certain that the Koran is a lot more explicit than the Bible about people being burned for eternity and that it’s all God’s doing. *Which brings us right back around to good old Calvinism.*
Now I’m wondering how much influence Muslim writings had on John Calvin, off to see if I can scare anything up in Google.
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@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
Funny you should say that…I read the whole Koran in college and a couple times after 9/11. I remember having the distinct feeling that I could’ve read most of the passages to a Calvinist and there would have been no contradiction between the two.
You may be right about Calvin (though I’ve no sure idea) much of the late middle ages were influenced by contact with the Muslim world via the crusades. The Muslim scholars were more advanced in math and had kept copies of the ancient Greek philosophers. I believe Thomas Aquinas was indebted to many of the ancient work preserved by Muslim scholars.
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__
“Fresh Start?”
“We must regain the message of the goodness and grace of God…” ~ Wade Burleson
hmmm…
…when offering some of my mum’s homecookin’, I seldom haveta twist an arm.
Yum!
…those hot steamy buttered biscuits are just irrefutablly delicious.
Same goes for a lit’t message that comes outa a sweet piece of literature, if I might say so, the book of John, in the New Testament.
And like my mum’s home cook’in, – irresistible, as well…
Here we have a story bout a God who cared enough to sent the very best to rescue His creation from the jaws of death. A bit melodramatic for some modern audiences perhaps, but non-the-less potent.
The sweet message found there is crystal clear, – our Creater is offerin’ ta restore each of us to Himself, if we are interested. He came to do just that some two thousand years ago in a dusty little city call’d Jerusalem, and this generous offer stills stands today; – all who accept His Son, Jesus, will have their separation from God removed by new birth, and will live forever in His heaven with Him, when the day comes for folk to leave this earthly existence.
His gracious hand is outstretched,His offer extended.
What ya think?
Interested?
…well just don’t just sit there silly, tell Him…
(He’s listening for the sound of your widdle sweet voice…) 🙂
*
“I know I’m not the only one who’s ever cried for help.
And Jesus did for me what I could not do myself.
He changed my life by changing my mind,
He healed all that was broken inside,
I’m loving what I can see with His spirit alive in me,
I’m finding beauty for the first time,
Looking through my Father’s eyes…” ~ Holly Star [1]
(smiley face goes here)
Sopy
__
Comic relief: VeggieTales: “The Yodeling Veterinarian of the Alps”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUkpE16b56g
[1] Bonus: Holly Starr – “Through My Father’s Eyes”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldiEOAtlTKU
;~)
—
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Hmm….first, on the whole ‘method-of-conversion’ thing……Growing up in the Pentecostal world, not having a ‘conversion date’ with accompanying story was kind of worrisome for me – as a child, especially, what with all the other nonsense going on….but the truth is, I can’t remember when Jesus was not an active part of my life. And I remember back to 18 month old. What with the various abuses that dogged my childhood, things got pretty twisty, but he was never not there….my pentecostal family/friends never knew what to do with that….were suspicious. A few years ago, I became friends with someone who was raised LCMS and we talked about it and she said that was pretty normal in her neck of the woods…she doesn’t have a ‘date,’ either.
As to hell….hmmm…..I grew up with a Jack Chick overly to the pentecostalism and hell was very real to me as child…had nightmares about going there….the abuse having damned me, you see….but now…..I’ve wrestled with this and am not done wrestling…and my current resting place closely resembles CS Lewis’ Great Divorce senario….perhaps, in the end, we choose how near…or far…from God we wish to be….and, since he is light, the further we choose to be from him, the darker it gets….but, I am not settled on this and probably won’t be in this lifetime.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
You may really be onto something there. The contamination of christian thinking by Graeco-Roman ideas is well established, but I have never heard the idea of contamination by Muslim ideas. But it is bound to be there. Their scholars had impact on medicine too at a time when our (western) civilization was a huge mess.
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THC wrote:
Well, obviously, that wasn’t the point of the post. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by that. And although Wade clearly hopes that we will forsake our infatuation with Law and judgment, I don’t know where the idea of “our infatuation with sin” comes from – Law and judgment are not the same as sin, and Wade explicitly hopes for preaching that does turn people from sin.
Statements like I encourage Wade to do a study on [the topic he writes briefly about here], or I encourage THC to read Wade Burleson’s work [before being pretty sure what Wade believes] can only come across as somewhat patronising and belittling. I put the second one in, not because I think it’s clever, but because it clearly isn’t. It is possible for two or more people, who disagree on important matters, to discuss those matters in a way that leaves everyone the richer for it, but I’ve yet to be convinced that’s it.
It seems to me that the point of the post is that repentance is turning towards God, more than away from sin. Most people focused on “turning from sin” just end up turning on the spot.
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Thanks for all the wise generous comments on this thread re hell. It’s made me happy this morning!
I despise the idea that God’s justice is “higher” than ours and thus He can do any nasty thing and it will be just. Our God put him/herself into creation, and he is revealed in it. Surely, if we are made in God’s image, we will recognize the essentials of justice. “Higher” Justice can’t be injustice.
To believe in such a god also causes some people to say that love means telling people how awful they are.
It drains the meaning out of beautiful words.
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In other news: the men’s semis have just begun, so I’d better weigh in quick with my predictions.
Djoko to win in 4; Rafa to win in 3, one of them a tie-break and one of the others a 6-1 (or a “breadstick”, as they’re apparently known – one down from a “bagel”).
I hope this is helpful.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You know, we are having real problems in this area in the States with differences of opinion as to how to deal with the sin vs God, I need a word, continuum? In my denomination (United Methodist) there may come a split over a certain issue wherein some people say that the church must of necessity turn away from a certain thing considered sin or else they are turning away from God. Meanwhile other people think that separation is not the idea but some accommodation in that area is needed. This brings in the larger quarrel as to how one relates to scripture and whether teachings of holiness are being undercut. Looks like separation, perhaps amicable, may be in the offing. This is a difficult area. I personally would have to make a decision as to stay or go from my own church, and even denomination, based on how not just churches but individuals will be forced to decide which way to go. Looks like there will be no hiding out from this one. I believe this is what you people call a sticky wicket?
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Full disclosure: At the time of writing the previous, Gulbis was 1-0 up on serve in the opening set. As I write this one, Djoko has just held for 2-2. The last game went to deuce, but otherwise no drama yet.
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Patrice wrote:
If count and counterpoint is valid, let me do counterpoint. My thinking is similar to yours in some aspects but not in others. I am not dissing you, here, merely stating the other side of the coin for the sake of conversation. Somebody has to do that, of course, or the whole idea of conversation breaks down.
The idea of the higher-ness of everything about God comes from scripture (and probably from other sources also) and is used in the 55th chapter of Isaiah as the foundation of a belief in the compassion of God.
Isaiah 55 English Standard Version (ESV)
(The Compassion of the Lord)
6 “Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; 7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
I am having trouble with saying that mankind would recognize the essentials of justice based on creation, because when I look at mankind I do not see it. We have everything from Sharia on the one hand to “nothing matters, the world has changed” on the other hand. If an understanding of justice is intrinsic in humanity how can that be explained? IMO if God does not have something better than that to offer, then we are in a *** of a mess. But then, I do not assume that “higher” when it applies to God equates with nastiness. Quite the opposite, in fact. Nor do I assume that justice and mercy, in the hands of God, are necessarily incompatible ideas. Perhaps it is that mankind only partially understands either concept. That is where I am in thinking right now on this subject, which is too rigid for some people and too wishy-washy for others. On, well.
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Garland wrote:
Thank you for clarifying. OK-so the Ninevites repented. Did they stay repented? The answer is most likely not. They were subject to the same problem that God’s chosen people had. They wanted to avoid God’s wrath or had experienced God’s wrath so they repented. Within fairly short order they were back to disobeying God in all sorts of ways.
People respect wrath. That is why they obey a kidnapper when they are threatened with harm. But they will always try to escape, to get back to those who love them. The message of the Old Testament is clear. We need a Savior.
The wrath of God did not keep them from sinning and did not draw them to God in any long-lasting fashion. Only the love of God, as seen through the sacrifice of His Son was sufficient
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@ Nancy:
Counterpoints are good!
I agree that there is much that is higher than us, God being apex. There is much that we don’t understand, being very limited creatures.
But how could God’s justice, although higher than ours, be a type that contradicts ours? We find justice and mercy difficult to perceive as a unity because it is complex for our small minds/hearts. God has the depth/height/accuracy because it emerges from Him. Yet, though we only see dimly, we do see somewhat. Wouldn’t that be part of bearing his image?
I disagree only on this, that there is more good in humanity than you allow. Yes, fundamentalism grows like a tumor on every ideology/religion. There are sociopaths/narcissists in many flavors. The greed that runs the world right now is appallingly destructive. Fear and paralysis runs rampant. Individually, we fail again and again. But there are also always some who respond respectfully and enthusiastically to the law (written on their hearts) and God’s good character seen in all that exists, even though they might not attach it to the God we worship. And when they inevitably occasionally fail, pick themselves up again and go right back to it.
Justice (and ethics in general) is discussed in depth between people of varying views of God or not-God. Books are written on these things. I find it fascinating.
I wish “news” wasn’t always only about the bad/harsh/nasty and I wish our media held a proper sense of responsibility. We need to hear about the good that happens, too. I would love to watch regular convos on these essential issues, so that we could again learn how to talk with each other. On social problems, we cannot move forward without each other. Isolate individualism is destroying us, inside the church and out. I am so sorry about a split appearing on the horizon in your church.
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Patrice wrote:
Thanks. Me too.
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@ dee:
On a practical level, I personally will take all the help I can get. If threats of judgment help straighten me out–bring it. If amazing grace makes life worth living–give me more. I do not think “me personally” needs to be preached as the one and only way, but if it works for me I am going to have to utilize everything I can for myself.
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Nancy wrote:
I am curious about this framing. What do you see as wishy-washy and what as rigid?
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Well: the first of my tennis-related predictions was spot on. Roll on Rafa vs Muzza.
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Leila wrote:
Leila, thanks for sharing your thoughts here, as they are helping me sort out my own messy head. I relate very much to what Dee said about constantly returning to these questions.
I’ve often wondered about Lucifer’s plight, along with other demons. What does the judgement of Lucifer/Satan reveal about the character of God? Why is there no apparent redemption available, at least not that I have ever heard about? And, if indeed, Satan is to be forever punished, why are humans given a different future?
Apologies to Wade for this tangent! I also loved his thoughts, and can relate to being captivated by God’s love so much that I simply wanted to be closer. I realized that my sinful lifestyle came between my fullest experience of His presence, so I have progressively chosen what is so much more rewarding. A recent saying I heard from Brian Zahnd is that “God is more willing to die for His enemies than to punish them.” That’s the love that drew me in.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Stop already. Not helpful . . . for those who don’t want spoilers 😉
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Patrice wrote:
First, I did not say actually that I see it that way but rather that “some people” see it that way. In some folks’ understanding of how one ought (note the imperative) to think, everything must be specific, perhaps even quantifiable were possible and not subject to nuance, maybe not subject even to discussion. I have has some unfortunate prior experience with baptist fundamentalism and they are like that.
On the other hand, there seems to be the opinion among some people that to have some specific idea or belief, even if it is up for analysis or discussion, is too much dogmatism. The idea being that one must have multiple competing ideas about everything and one must not have any position at all about anything. That seems to represent open mindedness is some circles.
What I like to do is think about something, research it as much as seems reasonable or indicated, form an initial impression, then throw it out there and see what happens. Does it work? What do other people think? How does this do in the wider world of people. Having the initial impression in the first place is too much for those addicted to rigidity, and being in the process of fine tuning said idea is too wishy-washy for others.
Frankly, that is going to have to be their problem.
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I am going to be out for a while. Got to go spray more gallons of better living through chemistry on the back forty. I am waiting for somebody to discover in scripture that english ivy can be and is actually possessed. At least mine acts like it.
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Lot’s of good conversation on this topic.
I guess I’m still trying to figure out what this thing called “Real Repentance” is and who decides when someone has attained it . . .
To me the phrase is another one of those religious phrases that is used to pummel folks.
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@ Patrice:
“It drains the meaning out of beautiful words.”
+++++++++++++
hear, hear.
“let me love you and care for you by limiting your options, manipulating you, causing you pain, and ruining your life on principle.”
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Finally the doctrine of limited atonement has sunk in! I never could figure out why is was so crucial to Calvinism. If Jesus really did die for the sins of the whole world then the unsaved would not have to bear the cost of their sins for eternity. One thing that has troubled me is that if even one person burns forever
then eventually he will have paid a greater cost (infinite) than Christ paid on the cross for the sins of the world (which is finite).
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Bridget wrote:
Yeah, sorry, my bad. Rafa and Muzza are just warming up the noo – I don’t think it’s spoiling much to say that Rafa is due to serve first – but my prediction of Rafa in straight sets, one tie-break, one breadstick, will remain as a prediction for the day.
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My tennis-related comment has landed in mod… that has to be some kind of record!
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Nancy wrote:
It’s possible that it, like the Highland Midge, is a consequence of sin.
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@ Nancy:
Thanks, Nancy. That is also how I see it.
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@ Bridget:
“I guess I’m still trying to figure out what this thing called “Real Repentance” is and who decides when someone has attained it . . .
To me the phrase is another one of those religious phrases that is used to pummel folks.”
+++++++++++++++++++
what was once a pure idea, like cool piney air high in the Sierras, now weighs 1000 pounds.
over and over again, square one for me is treating people the way I want to be treated (or, “love your neighbor as yourself”, although that one is losing its edge by dull repetition).
if a person causes me harm, what would make it right would be a response totally stripped down to zero of all self-protection, self-interest, & self-promotion. Down to zero.
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@ Janet Varin:
“One thing that has troubled me is that if even one person burns forever
then eventually he will have paid a greater cost (infinite) than Christ paid on the cross for the sins of the world (which is finite).”
++++++++++++++
yes — this has troubled me, too. I’ve never settled down enough to articulate my thoughts, but that’s exactly it.
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doubtful wrote:
Hi doubtful,
I wish I had stronger writing skills to explain my thoughts!
First of all, to me God is the perfect parent and I’m comfortable with both He and She to refer to God because God transcends gender and I think the point is that we see God in terms of the Perfect Community of Oneness. In the relationship between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit there is never any infighting; no discord, distrust or disunity. In Him we discover what we long for – a relationship of peace in which we’ve been freed of our sin, where we’re totally accepted, where there’s no condemnation, and where we’re loved with an everlasting love. (Bruce says these truths are nothing more than “feelings.”)
In God we discover the perfection of love, not amongst ourselves. He pours His love into our hearts and then we are able to truly love one another, but we are still flawed. All of us are. So in our families we’re not going to find perfection because none of us is God, and certainly not all members of our families are either. In no way do I see myself or my family as perfect, and I certainly don’t choose to relate only to those who “are good married folks worthy of my attention.” That would be crazy since I’m divorced. Plus, as you can see I don’t say things in ways that always inspire angelic visions and make people desire to serve & follow me. That’s not my goal, obviously. I add my voice here and there to the conversation for whatever it’s worth.
And I’ll be honest. I don’t know Bruce but there’s something about him that touched off something in me. I felt a sense of anger. Each time he mentioned God or the Bible it was offensive. Not sure if he follows the blog, but I’ve never seen him weight in when we’ve been talking about important issues about protecting children, etc. His pet peeve is God, who he divorced, and hasn’t seen since. If faith is the evidence of things not seen, I doubt he ever “saw” God to begin with. Just because he was a Pastor didn’t make him a man of God. Anyone reading this blog becomes aware of that. You cannot lead someone to true and lasting faith if you don’t possess it yourself. Is my faith in God strong? It’s terribly flawed. But I believe and pray that God would help me with my unbelief.
I do believe that God is love, and that he demonstrated love in what he did to redeem us and reconcile us to him. My point was to draw attention to God and the story of redemption. Yes, it’s something we read about in an inspired book, but it’s made alive in us. Regardless of my failings, my union with God has been secured by his sacrifice. Even my times of fear can’t separate me from His love. I’m glad my salvation doesn’t rest within my own insufficient efforts.
So, I asked the man to provide proof from his own life in comparison to the proof God provided us of his love. I asked about what he’s done in demonstration of his love in the lives of his children. He says he doesn’t believe God exists, and focuses on the “proofs” people share with him through email and on his blog, and those which emanate from his own imagination. He doesn’t find enough “evidence” in the Bible, that horrible book, to believe what God has revealed to us about himself to back up the Bible’s claim that God is love.
And there was no proof to be found in Bruces claim that his family is better than God’s, hands down. That his love for his six children is stronger, better and more secure than God’s love for me and the rest of his children. It’s merely something he claimed without proof. He wants me to take him at his word, like I should believe him. Why should I when his own claim is void of any proofs? Surely a man such as himself who demands supernatural proofs understands things in the natural are verifiable. He won’t take God at his Word. Yet he wants us to take him at his? I doubt he tells the truth. Hope that doesn’t offend you or anyone, just like you should be offended when he says the Bible is a fairy tale.
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Paula wrote:
Bruce has his beliefs that you think is wrong, you have yours that he thinks is wrong. Each can do “proofing” til the cows come home and still not change the other’s mind because the bases are different. Since he doesn’t believe in God, there is no way for him to even enter into your proposal that he trump your idea of God’s family-love.
The question becomes, “How can we best treat those who hold views contradictory to ours?”
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Patrice wrote:
And you have yours and think I’m wrong.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I haven’t read all the comments here, so apologies if someone has already said this.
Hell as I understand it, is the consequence of sin, law-breaking, moral evil. It is not for believing the wrong way, but not believing at all, neither in actual wrong done nor in God’s justice in sentencing us for this. We don’t think it unjust or unloving for a judge in a human court to sentence someone for wrongs committed, why thing this of God? He is going to judge us on what we have actually done wrong, with perfect knowledge of the circumstances and our motives.
I think the frying flesh/Dante inferno picture of hell is a result of taking NT metaphors too literally. Hell is also pictured as an eternal grave and darkness. The point of this is to get us to take it seriously.
Would it be just of God simply to let us all off the unloving things we have all done? Ignore the harm we have done others, and if not done it, thought it? That is hardly loving!
If God universally allowed everyone into the new heaven and earth, those who love self and hate their neighbour would wreck it, it would be a continuation of the fallen world we know at present.
At some point all wrongs and injustices are going to put right, and good and evil permanently separated.
Since God has given an undeserved way for us to escape hell by repentance and faith in Christ, there is no need for anyone to go there unless they simply don’t want to meet the conditions required to avoid it, that is, they choose to love their personal autonomy and sin rather than the righteousness of God. What do you do with a thief who won’t stop stealing?
God is kind, and forgivenness is available, but if you don’t want it …
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@ Paula:
How about taking a cue from those who are discussing this in a peaceful fashion? There’s no reason to be provocative, imo.
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@ Ken:
How do you reconcile this with Jesus’ statement that when lifted up, he will draw all human beings to himself? It’s one of a number of passages that runs counter to what you’re proposing.
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Whew. Got done as much as I am going to do today in the great ivy issue. Hot out there. And the ivy is really thick on the ground-two years growth because last year this time I was sick and out of commission for a while so it just grew. But it was good to again prove to myself that I have what it takes to wade out into nature including the ivy and the little furry critters under the ivy and the snakes that feed on the little critters and just announce to nature that this is my place and things will be as I say they will be. So there. If the city would let me I would consider a goat or two.
But I did break down and get a couple of cans of bear spray for camping. Two sites and two family groups so two cans of spray. The fact that there are few bears where we are are going, and the fact that black bears tend to be afraid of man notwithstanding I like to be prepared. The eleven year old will be strapping the bear spray can holster to her belt. We are training her to be a warrior. Like her grandmother.
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TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
If you intend watching the highlights later on, skip the rest of this post.
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Well, both my predictions were spot on with one exception: there was no tie-break (or, indeed, a remotely close set) between Rafa and Muzza. But overall, hurrah for me.
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END OF TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
END OF TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
END OF TENNIS SPOILER ALERT
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@ numo:
Well I certainly don’t claim my post is complete or the last word! However, universalism (if that is what you are getting at) seems to me to mean a very rigid form of predestination, that mankind will be ‘forced’ somehow to repent and change.
What I propose entails God respecting the decisions we make, which is actually quite frightening. It means he really does allow us to reap the consequences of what we sow.
It seems to be a biblical principle that God hands us over to the consequences of our actions and choices, both in this life and more so in the next. What can you do with those who ‘have pleasure in unrighteousness’? Give them grace to repent yes, but force them to be righteous agains their wills, no.
I really don’t see how you can square universalism with the end of Revelation. You can argue God’s love is in a sense universal, but not salvation. God is just, and his forgivenness is just due to Jesus’ taking the penalty of sin, but his judgement is just on those who reject him. Both mercy and condemnation are just, there is nothing unfair about the whole thing.
It is an aspect of Christian truth that is sobering, and certainly needs sober and careful thought.
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Paula wrote:
Paula, I don’t understand what you are thinking here. What does Bruce’s relationship with his children prove about anything? If we take him at his word that he has a good relationship with his family (and I do) what would that prove about whether God does or doesn’t exist? He isn’t saying ‘God does not exist and the proof of it is that I am a good family man’ so why is this so important to you? He didn’t even want to debate beliefs with you let alone discuss his family. He only gave in and wrote about his family because it seems so important to you. But you were never going to believe him and I am sure he knew that. I certainly did. You pushed him into commenting and then announced that he wasn’t telling the truth.
I have read other comments here and elsewhere from Bruce and I have read some of his blog articles. I like him. I think he is a good man. I don’t find him in any way offensive. I do find your comments about him offensive because he has said nothing to deserve them.
Is it your position that atheists and agnostics cannot be good parents or have you just taken a dislike to this particular individual?
I have already defended Bruce once because I felt bad for him. Now I am doing it because I feel bad for you. I think something about the whole discussion is giving you a lot of pain and I wish you were feeling better.
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Paula wrote:
I’m sure that is so, although I’m fairly certain that mine are in many ways closer to yours than to Bruce’s. So, between you and me, too, the question remains, “How can we best treat each other when we hold different views?”
I don’t ask it lightly because it is difficult! ISTM, this question is at core of loving others as ourselves. Jesus didn’t limit the second great command to only believers who think like I do, or to believers in general. It is a broad command and I think it encompasses all that is “other”, even to the earth on which we walk.
How do we hold compassion, integrity, and freedom with both hands while in conversations with each other? It is not easy at all! I blow it whenever I forget to love the person more than I love my ideals. I get careless in my fervor and it’s easiest to do online because we don’t see the full person in front of us, with their God-made beauty/complexity. I have a particular set of ideals that I get stuck on. You have yours.
The spirit of our country and church has been more about dividing and separating rather than uniting on goals we hold in common while also not demeaning our own beliefs or those of others. It seems to me that a part of the genuine “culture wars” (rather than the fake one of the last 30 years) is to learn how talk/work with each other, so that we can get on with the hard work of restoration in both our church communities and our nation.
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OK, I think it’s time to step in here.
I have my views, and they are right. Everybody else is well-meaning.
I hope this is helpful.
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Nancy wrote:
In Detroit, goats are being kept, but more chickens and rabbits. It is a matter of the neighbors not minding, regardless of the rules on the books. Of course Detroit is kind of a wild frontier, but in Ann Arbor, they have put it in the books—if your neighbors are ok with it, go ahead. May it come to your town soon lol
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I will step in here also. I have my views too, if I could just remember where I put them.
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elastigirl wrote:
Confused here. Do you mean that the person who harmed you should respond “totally stripped down to zero . . . ” Or, your response to the person who harmed you should be “totally stripped down to zero . . . “
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You have made me smile, and a bit of a chortle.
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numo wrote:
Thanks for setting me straight on the Greek myth thing. 🙂 I think I was thinking of Manicheanism – which WAS a Greek philosophy, right, distinct from classical Greek mythology? I know Manichean dualism and neoplatonism were the twin influences on Augustine, and Augustine was THE shaper of Christian theology for the Middle Ages and Reformation era.
Re: Plato, I’m reading _Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?: The Witness of the New Testament_, by Oscar Cullman, which explains the chasm between the Greek idea of preexistent immortality (in which death is a window of liberation for the disembodied soul) and the Biblical idea of resurrection (in which death is the enemy which Christ overcame so that we can be raised in undying bodies). It is making me rethink my anthropology. Are we “a soul that has a body” or “a body that has a soul”? More, do we “have” a soul, or “are” we a soul? Genesis says God started with dirt, made a man, and then breathed life into him, and man “became a living soul.”
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Patrice wrote:
By treating the ‘other’ the way we would want to be treated? We all laugh the same laughs, cry the same tears, and bleed the same blood. When we unite on this shared and common humanity, it makes it harder to vilify the ‘other’ based on beliefs which have little to do with peace and harmony in the here and now.
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Nancy wrote:
All threats of judgment do is make me reach for my anti-anxiety medications. Yes, plural. And, for the record, judgment is not the only thing that makes me anxious. It’s mostly about work and family, as might be expected, but religion has played such an important role in my life that anxiousness regarding it can’t be avoided.
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I have a reading recommendation that I like and some of you might want to check out. Confessions of a Funeral Director. calebwilde dot com
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Janet Varin wrote:
Wow, o wow! Now I understand it too! I still think it’s repulsive, but now I understand the thinking.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I bet you have found the missing link! 🙂 numo reminded me that it wasn’t Greek mythology, but (I think – please correct me if I’m mixing it up still) a Greek philosophy known as Manichean dualism that originated the “fiery hell” for unbelievers (AND a system of unconditional election!). Augustine was a Manichean before converting to Christianity, and imported those ideas into Christian theology; Calvin was then influenced by Augustine. So the link from Islam to Calvin may be more indirect than direct (e.g. Islam, esp. medieval Islam, imported the same ideas from Greek philosophy at the same time as Dante).
Or is there a common point of origin in ancient Persian Zoroastrianism, which I think features fiery torment for sinners as well as dualism in the form of an Ahura Mazda-devil eternal tango?
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@ Bridget:
sorry…. i’ll rephrase.
“repentance” has become such a ridiculously loaded word. what does it mean, how you do it, when has it been thoroughly executed, when can you check it off on the to-do list, when can someone check someone else’s repentance off their own check list…. BAH!!!
in my view, it all boils down to treating people the way you want to be treated. when someone harms me, treats me bad, the only truly meaningful apology/”act of repentance” is one where all self-protection, self-interest, self-promotion is stripped away.
this is what I apply to myself, then, when I f up (royally or not) towards other people or God.
(no rocket science here, as simple as 1+1=2)
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Yes, this! I remember hearing in a class on Jonathan Edwards (the one who preached “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”) that “an infinite offense against infinite holiness [sin] deserves an infinite punishment [hell].” Nope. (Otherwise, Jesus would have to “take our penalty” by suffering in hell for eternity so we could enjoy heaven, right?)
I walked out of class knowing EXACTLY why I would never, in this life or the next, be a Calvinist. (No offense to any Calvinists on the board.)
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@ elastigirl:
or, “QUIT WITH THE CLEVERLY WORDED APOLOGY YOU SPENT SO MUCH TIME CRAFTING TO SAVE OWN AND TRY BEING FORTHRIGHT TO THE FULL AND ACCEPT THE CONSEQUENCES”
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Muff Potter wrote:
Yep, and you are one I was thinking about when I mentioned sometimes being careless about people because of particular ideologies I’m stuck on; in your case, evolutionary theory — yes or no. I am sorry about that, Muff. It is of little account compared to your person. I’ve always enjoyed your comments and the surprising ways you put things together. You help keep us open and that is a valuable position.
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In other news . . .
Oh! Look! The tennis matches just started!
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@ elastigirl:
Got, get it, agree!!
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@ elastigirl:
This is even better. I’m often accused of not being nuanced enough. In other words . . . I call it like I see it. It is exhausting, to me, to do the footsie word dance.
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@ texaswildflower: Manicheanism originated in the Middle East and is considerably later than classical Greek philosophy and literature – late Hellenistic period
Keep in mind that the region was pretty cosmopolitan;,fwiw, Mani was the founder of Manichesnism
Am typing on phone. More whenever
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@ Nancy:
A recent article about goats in Detroit lol:
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/06/05/fund-manager-sets-goats-grazing-in-blighted-detroit/?_php=true&_type=blogs&emc=eta1&_r=0
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@ texaswildflower: I think the reality of intertwining strands of Greek thought plus early xtiamity is far more complex than the sources youre reading are making it out to be.
Also, most of the folks making these claims have only read parts of Augustines works and are, IMO, proof texting him. (I’m not a fangirl, nor am I a Calvinist, feiw.)
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Sorry for typos!
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Oh, my, well that would not work for you then. For some reason I don’t have a problem with anxiety, per se. That is using the clinical descriptors for anxiety. But somebody in my family does, and it can be a real torment for her sometimes.
What I tend to do–alright, actually do–with potentially anxiety causing situations is with the speed of light or so I hurl myself into some poorly thought out solution for whatever it is. Then by the time that it is clear that my solution is just nuts, time has passed and the threat has diminished or gone (or I just got used to it) and life goes back to normal. So what I have is a pretty extensive mental file folder of worthless ideas from which to draw as an instantaneous possible solution for almost everything imaginable.
Once I thought about raising earthworms as a potential food source in case of famine, for example. So now I have an earthworm file in my head (OK, also in my expandable plastic emergency folder) for use at any time. But no earthworms.
Once I became concerned about the possibility of total economic collapse and hit upon the idea to grow certain poisonous plants in the yard to sell or barter in the collapsed economy, since I had read an article that there would be a need for this to manage the packs of wild dogs that would be about. Of course, I did not do it. Especially after I realized it could be put to bad purposes. But even then I toyed with the idea. So just think, do I not need somebody or something to remind me that there are boundaries which must not be crossed “lest He, returning, chide.” First prize to the first person to tell me who said that without google.
And sometimes it is not so radical. I thought I might dig out my old violin and play on the street corner dressed to look as pitiful as possible. I figure they would pay me to stop playing.
Sometimes the ideas are not so bad. I have taught the grandchildren basic crochet stitches, and this summer I am going to teach them basic sewing skills for survival, push comes to shove. However, not one of them is willing to let me teach them how to sew up flesh (from the meat market of course) but one of them will cave and do it. And this tale just goes on and on and on.
So at this point the thing that worries me most is dying before I get it all done. It has got to be brain chemicals or something. I know a few other things to call it, but that would put me moderation until Thanksgiving .
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@ Patrice:
Awesome. Actually I have a file on goats. The poor man’s cow. We had a loaner goat when I was a kid. Goat milk is really awful, tastes like goats smell. But goat cheese is really good. And they can keep the vegetation beat back, and pull a small cart and they look small enough that in case of dire disaster they could probably be turned into food at home. Actually I also have some information of asses for beasts of burden, and of course donkey carts. Just in case.
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Marsha wrote:
I’ve tried to explain that I was focusing on what the bible says about God, and what he did to demonstrate love. The demonstration of His love was focused on His children. The greatest thing is love, right? God is love. The greatness of God and the outworking of His love is what the bible is about – and it all moves His plan for our redemption being fulfilled in Christ. Through his work we have been redeemed, brought back, and reconciled. This fact overshadows everything else in the Bible, right? It started in the Old Testament when God called Abraham, and promised him that he would be the father of many nations, and that his descendants would be more than the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore.
We see the plan of redemption moving concurrently alongside the effects of the fall, as God used a nation to be his Ambassadors to represent Him to the nations of the world, and in them show that he is a God who keeps covenant with his people. And the whole time, everything was moving toward the fulfillment of His plan of redemption which was revealed in Christ. In Christ we see God’s love in full display as he laid down his life to fully redeem us. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. It was sin that separated us from God in the first place. Christ provided the remedy and became sin for us, so that through faith in Him we can be wonderfully recondiled and united with God forever and throughout eternity, along with many many others….as many as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. God is love, and God is good.
I’m just saying “Beat that, Bruce.” Can he?
He says not only can he, but he has.
So, good for him. I wasn’t asking to embarrass him or to suggest I’m a better parent. I was pointing out the fact that God is an amazing parent, that none of us can beat. That’s what the life of God is all about which is available for all to read in the Good News of the Bible.
I asked Bruce about the relationship he enjoys with his children and more specifically, what he has done in an effort to ever repair the breach if ever any has occurred within his own family. In Bruce’s family there’s never been a breach, apparently. He paints a picture of unity and harmony despite their divergent views. They support one another and their love and acceptance of one another is secure. That’s great. And you can believe him. That’s fine. Maybe it’s true, I don’t know. I have my doubts. I don’t know the man, so that should be fine, too. In a debate with him he points out that you can’t use the bible because he doesn’t believe its claims. Seems ok then to me that it’s ok not to believe his claims, simply on the basis of his word. He can say his family hunky-dory all he wants, but the interesting thing to me is that he wishes us to believe his family lives in peace and harmony – which are attributes of God.
He might as well say we fight all the time and I’ve got one kid that doesn’t speak to me. I’ve never made any effort to go after that one child and repair the breach because that’s the kind of stuff we read about in the Bible. That’s what Jesus said he did, left the 99 to go after the 1. He could say that since he rejects the bible as a bad book containing accounts that poorly influence us, that taking the initiative, out of love, to restore his relationship with his child would be totally foolish because that’s a story from a fairy book that he rejects and wont follow.
But no, he describes his family in godly terms – and moreover – they’re better.
Are you still confused? Hope I helped clear things up for you.
If we take him at his word that he has a good relationship with his family (and I do) what would that prove about whether God does or doesn’t exist? He isn’t saying ‘God does not exist and the proof of it is that I am a good family man’ so why is this so important to you? He didn’t even want to debate beliefs with you let alone discuss his family. He only gave in and wrote about his family because it seems so important to you. But you were never going to believe him and I am sure he knew that. I certainly did. You pushed him into commenting and then announced that he wasn’t telling the truth.
I have read other comments here and elsewhere from Bruce and I have read some of his blog articles. I like him. I think he is a good man. I don’t find him in any way offensive. I do find your comments about him offensive because he has said nothing to deserve them.
Is it your position that atheists and agnostics cannot be good parents or have you just taken a dislike to this particular individual?
I have already defended Bruce once because I felt bad for him. Now I am doing it because I feel bad for you. I think something about the whole discussion is giving you a lot of pain and I wish you were feeling better.
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I’m so sorry. I wish I could go back and edit. The bottom part is from Marsha’s quote starting at “If we take him at his word….” that I didn’t erase. My apologies. Ugh!
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@ Bruce Gerencser:
I understand you are an atheist. I fall somewhere between Christian and agnostic myself currently.
Your post seemed to convey that preachers are not preaching about Hell nice enough, or that the concept of Hell itself is not nice, and one thing I was pointing out is that Jesus Christ, when speaking about Hell, depicted a place that sounds the opposite of nice.
I guess a preacher does not have to yell, scream, and raise his voice when discussing Hell with people, but I don’t know of a way a Christian could dress Hell up to make it sound cozy, fun, and a great place to spend some time.
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Nancy wrote:
All of this is true except for the part about goats’ milk being awful. 🙂 I have been raising beautiful, sweet dairy goats for almost a decade and their milk is FABULOUS. As long as it is clean (meaning hands, udder, and milked into a clean pail) and chilled immediately after milking, goats’ milk is sweet, creamy, NOT gamy, and is indistinguishable from store bought cows’ milk. English ivy is toxic to them, though, so you’re better off pulling or spraying it. I mean, I don’t spray anything, but I respect your right to. 🙂
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I’m actually pretty cool with Hell. I like the idea that Hitlers, people who molest kids, and elderly and animal abusers get some payback in the afterlife, assuming there is an afterlife.
If someone like Hitler repents and turns to God, and God forgives that person and permits him to go to Heaven when he dies, that’s between him and God.
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Paula I disagree that it is okay for you to express your doubts about Bruce’s family life. You have nothing whatsoever to cite. You are just being unkind.
Normally, on this blog we discuss what people in Christian leadership roles say and do. We look at their books and their blogs and listen to their sermons. We pay attention to victim testimony and criminal convictions. We don’t make assumptions about things in their private life we know nothing about. I would be very upset if someone were to come here and say ‘I have my suspicions about Paula’ apropos of nothing.
I personally think I have a wonderful life with a great husband and two loving daughters (one my bio child and one my husband’s) and two delightful grandchildren. It is not hard for me to believe others who tell me they have a happy family life too.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I remember hearing about this group (or one like it) as a little kid, and it scared the crap out of me. I used to lie awake at night, hoping that the missionaries would fail. Then I would lie awake praying that I wouldn’t go to hell for hoping that missionaries would fail.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Faith does play a role in Christianity. God requires faith.
If God spelled out every facet of everything, if Christians could prove Hell (or whatever) to your satisfaction, then there would be no role for faith to play.
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Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I do get the part that you don’t want to debate per se, but you keep mentioning this.
I’m still not quite understanding how the topic of Hell from the Christian view comes across to you as an atheist.
What I got so far, from one of your earliest posts, is that Hell doesn’t sound nice to you. Or maybe I misunderstood?
Jesus Christ spoke about a place of eternal punishment in the New Testament. I would take it either you think Jesus was mistaken about it, was lying about it, or someone somewhere along the way put a bunch of words in his mouth (ie, corrupted Bible translations / copies)?
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Do you feel comfortable stating his name here? (I don’t visit Internet Monk as often as you, so I’m not as familiar with the personalities there.)
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In other news… only in Scotland:
Man in boxer shorts causes long delays on M8 motorway
I suspect the “head injury” for which the chap in question was hospitalised was caused when the driver of the white car got out and punched him in the head.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’ve met Christians who are like that in regards to other things.
After my mother died, and I began confiding in some Christians at a nearby church, one of them started helping me a little.
However, at times, I got the impression she was helping me not so much because she actually cared about me or my trial, but that she felt she “had to” in order to be a good Christian. When you feel as though you’re being helped because the person feels she has no choice, it really deflates you.
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@ Eagle:
I don’t know, but you might like this guy:
Reasonable Faith – William Lane Craig
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StacieMao wrote:
Good to know. The information I had was a complicated thing about bring them in from pasture four hours before milking each time and keep them in a specially designated place during that four hours and that would “help” with the taste. What you are saying is much better. I wonder if it depends on the breed.
About the ivy, I have only about 1/3 acre in the city. About half of the ground (known as the back forty) is covered with ivy–two years growth. There are professionals in town who will solve that for me for more money than I have to put in on it, but and also I have some trees and bushes I would not trust strangers to be too careful of. Like several azaleas along a fence line which are at least ten feet tall. And rhododendrons in the semi-shade In the spring when they all bloom it is so overwhelmingly beautiful I actually stand on my patio and cry. The Jews have a type of blessing that goes “blessed art thou Lord our God who has such as this in His creation.” I do that right much in the springtime. But the total amount of ivy is way too much to be pulled up. I do hand pull in the raspberry patch, but the rest I just spray.
What I have is the house and yard in the front, then a middle area of driveway, patio, storage building, fig tree and raspberry patch and compost pile and a few odds and ends. Then the back which is about half the property I laid out as a park, actually. For a wee time it was great, then my daughter and her children moved in with me when they were little and I got busy with children’s stuff, and then I got sick, and the whole thing got away from me. The basic framework is still there (the path I laid out and such) but the ivy is the problem. Once you get behind on something it can really get to be a problem. But now the grandchildren are old enough to actually be a help (not with the chemicals of course) and I think we can get it mostly back in shape this summer.
Thanks for the tip about the ivy being toxic to goats. I will stick that in my goat file so I won’t forget.
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Leila wrote:
My understanding of the Bible’s position is that you get one shot at this, and one only, while you are here on earth.
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27)
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Paula wrote:
I think that is correct. So here’s another way to possibly look at it….When one sets aside Bruce’s crankiness about Christianity (which he came by honestly), it is clear that he knows a great deal about love. He even comes here and talks clearly yet kindly to us. Since our God is love, as you beautifully recognize, Bruce obviously knows something about Him. And since it is also true that all good things come from God, we have that portion of goodness in common with him, and can stand alongside him in that, even though he disagrees with us on its source.
I had a friend who was Jewish agnostic and also in deep trouble. I told her that my belief in God and Christ helped me, but she couldn’t accept it, so I had to think for a while about how to help. Eventually we began talking about the path of love and truth. I came to see that by taking that path, she had the best chance of finding God because that is where He resides.
We had long conversations about what love and truth meant and how to make it work in our lives. For both of us, it meant to love self as much as others because we both suffered from not respecting ourselves and needed a lot of work in that area. Occasionally, I interjected comments about my belief in God, and how he works inside these issues, and she was relaxed enough to accept it without demur even if still not acceptance.
And I began to wonder whether it was more a case of “a rose by any name is still a rose” because I saw her grow in both strength and humility, and her devotion to truth and love was passionate. I subsequently lost contact with her but still occasionally pray for her. She is in God’s capable hands.
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@ Nancy:
Correction: it goes: “Blessed art thou Lord our God, King of the universe, who has such as this in his creation”
Sorry.
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Patrice wrote:
I love this! I sometimes wonder if we don’t place too much importance on our part in bringing other to Jesus. He loves them, after all, far more than we do. I have two sons who I’ve placed in His hands as I’ve exhausted all possible avenues to reach them over the years. I trust He can reach them one way or another when I couldn’t.
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“the incredible good news that God has an eternal love for sinners”
Why would an unbeliever think this was particularly good news if he doesn’t think he himself is a sinner?
The problem with the “nice” approach to evangelism is that it really doesn’t give much of a reason to love God to people who think they are normal, good, folk with no big problems they would need God’s help with.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Thank you, that’s very sweet of you.
Even though I’m having doubts about the Christian faith the last couple or more years, my morality is still about the same. I have taken to cussing a little bit more (not on this blog), but that’s about it. 🙂
Ironically, though, part of my crisis in faith actually comes from the fact I genuinely tried living out the Christian faith consistently (and it’s how I saw my mother live it out, she was a Christian – she lived for Jesus, she lived a clean life, she helped other people in practical ways when they were hurting).
What I mean is, after my mother died, I started noticing people who claim to be Christian but they act like no such thing.
I started seeing and noticing a lot of people who claim belief in Christ but who don’t make much of an attempt to live out what Christ taught.
I don’t expect all Christians to be perfect all the time, that’s not what I mean.
I’ve come across this personally in my own life, and I see famous preachers who turn out to be con artists, greedy guys, or who enable abuse (like the types who are discussed at this blog).
Here I was trying to really live the faith out, but I was seeing more and more Christians who were not, and it made me wonder how true or worthwhile is Christianity if I cannot, or do not, see results in the lives of those who claim to be followers?
One little ray of light and hope for me are precisely blogs like this one, that Deb and Dee call out other self- professing Christians on their malarky – and Christian radio host Janet Mefferd does as well on her program.
I find it strange and a little funny that some Christians, such as these ladies (Deb, Dee, Mefferd, Julie Anne at SSB blog, and others) get vehemently attacked by famous preachers and “every day, Christian Joe Blows” for one of the very things that helps me to not completely abandon the faith (i.e., them holding other Christians accountable for misbehavior, and they show a sincere concern for hurting or abused people).
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
P.S. I may have forgotten to tell you before, but I have totally dug your screen name ever since I first saw it. 😆 I usually smile when I see it.
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@ Victorious: that’s why i’m a revert to Lutheranism. i think they – and many other liturgical churches – allow a lot more room for things to take their course. evangelicalism is plagued by a sense of “wretched urgency” – see internetmonk.com for some recent discussions on this topic.
btw, I don’t mean to say that liturgical churches are perfect, because they’re definitely not. but the shift of focus (to communion being central to worship) has a way of changing one’s perspective.
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Daisy wrote:
Meeeee too. 🙂
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@ Patrice: This. Everything you said.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Lyrics from a Weird Al song:
From:
White And Nerdy
In the video, I like how the guy in the convertible -with the top and windows down – locks his car door on Weird Al. 😆
Donny Osmond is also awesome in that video.
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Eric Rasmusen wrote:
That would be me….:) I posted my testimony over at Wade’s site with his post of the same name if you care to read it. I suspect there are lots of people like me who thought “is that all there is?” I used to play that old Peggy Lee song over and over and considered it my theme song.
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One of the most freeing moments of my life was when I realized, then a full fledged member of an SBC church, that even Baptists had not always agreed on all of this stuff.
Some–gasp, shock–were not fans of penal substitution atonement. Some were more Christus Victor. Not all were either Calvinist or Dispensational. Some were actually postmillenialists.
And then I got shocked to find famous evangelical Max Lucado seems to be a hopeful universalist.
I agree with Daisy that scripture indeed teaches you die and then the judgment. What it doesn’t say is anything about an interval between those two things. Maybe there isn’t an interval, maybe there is.
I do know as a parent that with small children you tend, distract, physically remove from misbehavior, and if necessary finally punish. Perhaps natural consequences for our actions during this life reflect that stage.
As they grow into teens you more teach, back away, and if needed inflict some consequences so they learn to make their own right decisions.
And when they are adults, you are like the prodigal’s father. You wait and watch, but you don’t pad the pigpen. You let them experience what they choose to experience, always ready to accept them back if they turn back to you.
Perhaps this life is our childhood, or even borders on the teen years and a sort of purgatorial process. We truly don’t know what happens during the dying process.
It is possible we get to choose still to love or reject Christ, with the attendant consequences. It is quite possible that as the dross burns off of us we will be left with nothing if we still rebel against God, hence a fiery end of annihilation.
But then, I DO know God’s word tells me He desires none to be lost. It also tells me every knee will bow and every tongue confess He is Lord.
Perhaps, when we see Him in all His beauty, we won’t reject Him.
Perhaps just as eternal life begins the instant we accept Him, hell exists for us until we do. Perhaps He tarries so every last person will willingly seek Him.
So I tell as many as I can, doing all I can to aid in the freeing of Satan’s prisoners as it sure appears to me they already experience hell.
And my far more hopeful reading of Revelation encourages me to know that somehow, someway, my God will NEVER be defeated. Not once. All Jesus died to accomplish will happen, because He will see the travail of His soul and be satisfied. In that sense I am Reformed.
But not Calvinist. Saying when He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself appears to end the limited atonement discussion before it starts. Since non believers perish (Bible words), since we don’t get to decide if we participate in Adam’s death dealing, why would the new Adam’s act be any less sweeping?
Mind you, I would not suggest anyone wait and see. I suggest beginning your great adventure with Jesus as soon as possible.
But I believe the gospel really is GOOD NEWS, not “good for a few but for the rest the sentence of doom.”
Just the musing of a grandma (again) in the pew.
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Victorious wrote:
I have a sister and a former husband that I have done the same thing with. I used to pray about first one then the other until I began to think, this is not prayer, this is OCD. So I let go of feeling that it was up to me to solve it. Hard, hard, hard thing to do. And if one of them died tomorrow I would beat up on myself thinking I had not prayed enough, or something. Can’t go there. It is not up to me. But it is hard to let go. Hard or not, I think it is the right thing to do.
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mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
As to 1, isn’t there a different in motive?
A guy like Adolph wanted power and/or hated Jews, so he talked his country men into scapegoating them to consolidate power.
(2) I am not sure point 2 is completely applicable. God does forgive sinners, if they repent and ask him for forgiveness.
God says over and over in the Bible he’s willing to accept a sinner who approaches him.
God provided his son to take on the sins of the world and be punished in humanity’s place – God provided the escape hatch from hell, but you have to choose to use it.
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Mark wrote:
I can’t really say that was a huge factor in why I accepted Christ at a young age (before the age of ten). I don’t remember feeling scared into accepting Jesus.
I just remember from a very young age (around age 3, 4) loving God and Jesus and wanting to spend forever with them. It maybe wasn’t until I got a bit older that I started to understand more about hell and so on.
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Nancy wrote:
With each new cycle of the constellations and the star patterns swept out by the tail of the big bear, I can see my end approaching. You’re not alone on that one. When I was young I was invincible, no end in sight. But now the old Kansas song Dust in the Wind has taken on more than just a cursory meaning. I think it’s fantastic that you want to impart some good practical know-how to your grandkids, I try to do the same for mine. And who knows? If just one of yours learns to suture up a bad wound with make-do materials at hand, he or she she just might save a life, and save a whole world from destruction (according to an old Rabbinic saying) in the process.
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@ raswhiting:
That is something I mentioned a time or two above. Jesus Christ did mention a place of torment in the afterlife, and it’s also mentioned in Revelation.
Regardless of what the Old Testamet says or does not say about life after death, it would seem strange for Jesus to mention (warn) about it if it was temporary, allegorical, if there was a way out of it (apart from him), or did not exist.
I notice when Jesus spoke of this place of torment, it is not recorded in the text that the Jewish audiences scratched their heads in confusion or disagreement and said, “But the Old Testament doesn’t discuss this at all, so we can disregard your teaching on this,” or, “there is no such thing.”
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Sara wrote:
I see what you are saying, but if I understand Paula correctly, she is saying that is true of Bruce as well.
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@ linda:
I hear you, grandma. Good thoughts there.
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Janet Varin wrote:
That is an interesting way of looking at things… that there is a God, but some people reject a false idea or caricature they have of God that they learned from their church, denomination, or from pain they experienced in life. So they think they don’t believe in God at all, but in reality, they have rejected a false view of God.
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@ Daisy: I think you’ll find that a lot of beliefs about the afterlife, as well as apocalyptic literature (some of it pretty crazy) came into being between the end of the writing of the OT canon and the time of Christ. It’s amazing how much is *not* anywhere in the bible, though we tend to assume that it is.
There’s plenty of good reading material on the topic, but it’s pretty dry, for the most part. At any rate, no, it does not appear that the kind of hell you talk of was exactly what the people in 1st c. Palestine believed in.
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@ Daisy: yes. many don’t move past rejecting false views of god, but still – there it is.
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THC wrote:
I may agree partially with some of your views, but what do you do with verses/teachings as found in 1 John 1: 8, which was written to believers?
1 Jn 1.8:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Or, (and this was written by Paul), in Romans 7,
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
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numo wrote:
As I said in a comment above, if there is a God and afterlife, I am fine with Hell.
I don’t like the idea of a God who lets serial killers and animal abusers free of any consequences of their evil in this life.
If God did not hold evil accountable and gave everyone a free pass, that would make me morally superior to God, since I get outraged over stories like ones I hear in the news of grown adults who rape small children and feel these guys should get the electric chair.
(Again, though, if such a person wants to make amends for his ways, agree that what he did was evil, and repent, and God wants to accept that person into the fold, that’s God’s business.)
But I have seen televised murder trials where the accused killer sits there with a smirk on his face as the lawyers discuss how he tortured someone for days or hours.
I don’t feel too terribly sorry for folks who hurt others and feel no remorse over it, and some even take delight in their perverted deeds.
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numo wrote:
Shoot, my last reply to you is sitting in moderation.
I’ll discuss it from another angle.
Not only am I fine with Hell (if it exists), but, I’m okay with prison and the electric chair too – we have a legal system that separates and punishes people for their evil in this earthly life. Why should these people get off scot free in an afterlife?
I feel no more sorry for the unrepentant adult who preys on children, the elderly, etc, for going to jail or the gas chamber, than I do if that guy goes to eternal punishment.
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Janet Varin wrote:
Jesus dying for all of humanity’s sin does not necessarily mean the benefits are applicable to all.
You still have to accept the free gift that has been offered.
Just because I went to J. C. Penny’s and bought a sweater for you, to give you free of charge for your birthday, means nothing if I hold the sweater out to you and you refuse to grab it and wear it.
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Daisy wrote:
There is a problem with that. Some of the people who do just horrendous things are themselves so damaged by things over which they had no control that the whole situation, victim and perp can be seen as tragic. We don’t necessarily know the whole story. Surely God who is both just and merciful will judge justly and with mercy.
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numo wrote:
There are some examples in the Bible of God drawing to Himself, but some refuse to go to God.
I can’t remember every passage off the top of my head with examples of this, but you can find them by looking up pages that refute Calvinist beliefs (regarding irresistible grace).
Luke 13
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Acts 7:51 “[You] stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers [did], so [do] you.
52 “Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
53 “who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept [it].”
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
More tennis:
Funny Cats watching Women’s tennis
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@ Marsha:
I think I kind of understand her parenting analogy and why she brought it up, but I’m not sure how to explain it. I think she’s saying one form of proof of God’s existence or goodness is that she has a personal relationship with God herself, and/or that the Father sent his Son to die for her sins. I don’t know how to explain it, but I kinda understand her point.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You’re always right, except for those moments when you’re wrong. 😆
How about those song lyrics,
I tell the truth ‘cept when I lie
From “It only hurts when I cry” (sung by Dwight Yoakam)
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I thought men in Scotland wear kilts?
Even Scottish Bat Man wears kilts!!
(nekkid comic Bat Man rear end shown in drawing on this page):
Scottish Bat Man
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numo wrote:
But (and if you scroll up way high up on the page with the bible verses I pasted in), Jesus did speak of this sort of place.
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@ Nancy:
I don’t buy that.
I don’t care how crummy and abusive your childhood was, that does not give you free reign to bully and harass others, or commit evil against them.
My mother was abused as a child by a parent and an older sibling or two, but she did not grow up to be an abuser. She knew it was wrong. She did not allow her abusive past to be an excuse to treat other people horribly.
I have, my whole life, been a shy, quiet type who was a doormat. I have taken verbal abuse and harassment off of others.
When I have bothered to confront these folks personally or gone to an authority figure (eg to a school teacher when I was a kid), I was asked to take their behavior in silence because I should feel sorry for them because their dad was an alcoholic or their dear grandma died two weeks ago…
I’ve been through some very painful ordeals in my life too, but I don’t run around taking my pain and anger out on other people.
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Daisy wrote:
Also, P.S.
I’m not sure that’s always a good test of what is sound doctrine or not.
It would appear many of the Jews in the days of Jesus rejected Jesus because they did not have a concept of a suffering Messiah, they were expecting a conquering, military hero type of guy, but that is not what Jesus came to accomplish on his first visit.
The Jews of Jesus’ day apparently understood the Old Testament prophecies to mean that their Messiah would come in and kick Roman booty and be a victor.
The 12 disciples didn’t even seem to understand Jesus (Messiah) would have to suffer and die.
But I still find it interesting that when Jesus spoke of a place of separation from God in the afterlife, we don’t see quotes in the text saying, “And the crowds murmured among them saying, ‘what is he talking about???'”
They must have had some idea or clue of something in the afterlife, that not everyone gets to go to rest on a cloud, sip tea, and strum a harp, or I would expect to see the crowds and Pharisees arguing with Jesus in the text about his claims of torment after death.
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@ Daisy:
Yes, I am aware of the references, but am also aware that other conclusions can be reached.
No offense, but I’m not certain that reiterating the things I said very far upthread is going to advance this discussion any.
Also, I agree w/Nancy regarding our understanding being limited.
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@ Marsha:
I could have kept it general and asked about Bruce’s initative in repairing any damaged relationship he’s been in. He wouldn’t need to get detailed. He could just say, “I did, and I’m glad I did. It’s better that we worked through our differences.” Or he could say, “I’ve never had to repair a relationship with anyone for I’ve never experienced a falling out of any kind.”
I asked about his children without knowing if he even had any. The whole reason I asked about his relationship with his children, and whether he’s ever taken any initiative to repair a relationship with any of them, is to point to the fact that’s what God did.
If the bible is all about God’s relationship with his children and the initiative he took to repair the breach, the testimony of which we read about in the bible which portrays God has a peacemaker rather than some tyrant who wrecks havoc then throws people into a Lakes of Fire to burn, I simply wanted to ask him about his own relationships. Were his characterized by peacemaking? Were there any times he took steps to repair a relationship? And I couldn’t help but ask about his children, since I was thinking primarily about God and what he did for his children. You said, “We don’t make assumptions about things in their private life we know nothing about.” I wasn’t going on a witchhunt. I doubted he could best the story of God’s love for his children (which one of us can?) and used it as an example in an effort to point out that maybe God wasn’t the hellish person in the bible he believes him to be and to consider the bible’s story of redemption and then asked him about his relationship with his own children. God made his story public in a book he rejects. Bruce made his story public about his own family, proclaiming it to be better than the story of God and his family. I didn’t expect him to do that. But when he did, I didn’t think it was mean of me to say I doubted if it was true. I figured he could handle that just fine seeing how he’s so fond of saying he doubts everything God has written as containing any truth. So, I don’t know…maybe I should go lay out in the sun long enough to get a good burn now, Marsha, seeing how terribly I have transgressed.
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@ Daisy:
There are no funny cats.
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@ Patrice:
I liked this comment of yours, thanks. I appreciate your feedback, Patrice. And I’m glad to know we’re pretty much in the same camp. I do think there’s common ground between us and I hear you. I wish I had time to say more but I gtg. Plus, I always think my comments are too long anyway! TGIF 🙂
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In other news, it is 23:30 in Scotland (though still light enough to read a newspaper outside, it being June), and therefore time for beddy-byes. But I think it in order to provide one piece of advance notice before I retire for the evening.
In 6 days’ time a minor fitba’ tournament will begin in the South American nation of Brazil. The English national team will be tangentially involved (for three of the 64 matches), but there will be nothing of interest that needs commenting on here.
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@ Daisy:
My daughter teaches some kids who were crack babies. They are brain damaged because their mama did it to them while they were still in utero. They do the best the can. It may not be good enough. There is a lot more than just crack babies out there. Daisy, I am glad that God is their judge and not some human who may make no allowance for that.
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@ Muff Potter:
Well, there you go then. All that I can pass on is what I know, and that is seriously limited. But one thing I am happy with just right now. I think you need to teach kids to think. Reading, math, get along with people, all that is essential, but so many people seem to be bogged down with not being comfortable with thinking. But one of them, the oldest, seems to be catching on. The fifth grade just had a logic puzzle contest and she took first place. It is just a start, but it is a start. Good luck with your grandkids. I suspect that you are a really great granddad. At least, you sound like it.
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dee wrote:
Protestants, like Wade, really have a difficult time talking about sin.
But to answer your question, I believe in the Biblical teaching of Purgatory, which is that time after death when you get “buffed up” in order to be pure to come before a pure, perfect and Holy God.
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numo wrote:
You may be right. It’s been a long time since I read about this. At this point I’m reduced to carrying around keywords in my brain – “Manichean,” “Calvin,” “election,” and so on. 🙂
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Marsha wrote:
Agreed.
Bruce seems to me to be an intelligent caring person. I think he’s wrong about some things, but I see no reason to suppose that he is any worse a parent for being an atheist. Specifically,atheists can be great parents, & Christians can be lousy ones. (No names, but I can think of a couple of prominent “Christians” who are worse parents than the average stray cat).
Just saying……..
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I think you’re right.
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@ zooey111:
So true. Despite missing the point, I’ll give it to you that in one way you have correctly concluded he’s a wonderful person based on all he has said especially about God. And undoubtedly, if you read what I have said about God you can tell I am most a wonderful person in comparison.
I’m reaching through the computer screen and handing you a blue ribbon. Please wear it proudly.
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My phone typed “most” for some reason Zooey because it apparently likes me, weird. But I’m sure you discerned with laser-accurate intelligence that I meant to say “if you read what I have said about God you can tell I am not a wonderful person in comparison.”
But thank you again and I’ve upped my game and am now awarding you a Cerulean Ribbon with Sparkles.
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numo wrote:
That is so, so true. I hear folks talk this way, & I think, my Bible says that God created humankind in His own image; not that God is made in THEIR image. (I suspect that I am about to get grenaded. Well, go ahead, I’m a big* girl.
* 😉 Especially in the rear, but that is a subject for another day, another blog.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Hah!! You have never met mine. Each one of them is funnier than the other.
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@ zooey111:
It’s easy for you to think they’re funny, because it is in other people’s flowerbeds that they defecate…
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__
“What Is The ‘Gospel’, Anyway?”
hmmm…
According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter Elwell, “the gospel is the joyous proclamation of God’s redemptive activity in Christ Jesus on behalf of man enslaved by sin.”
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life”~Jesus
“that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time…” ~ Paul, the Apostle
Because Jesus came, suffered, died, and rose from the tomb, we all can have hope of eternal life, and the possibility of living in God’s big house, when this life is over.
Whew!
Because of Christ’s suffering, death, and resurrection, we can all have hope of eternal life.
Yep!
The gospel is everything Jesus did for us,the perfect life, the atoning death, and His resurrection as well, all this the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes, all satisfying God’s Mercy and His Justice!
Something we simply could not do…He did!
YeHaaaaaaaaa!
“While being baptized, responding in obedience, being faithful to the church, or caring for the downtrodden, etc. are important—these are not the gospel…
What?
>>—> The gospel is the good news that Christ lived a perfect life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead to satisfy God’s wrathful judgment on the world. Because of Jesus’ payment in full for our debt, it is now possible for anyone to receive salvation through a living faith in Christ.” [1]
Interested?
Please let God know, huh?
He’s still listening. 🙂
ATB
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Holly Starr- “I Believe”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md3cqOHPX0U
Bonus:Holly Starr – “I’ll Watch You Dance”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma-gbhfA9vY
[1] http://www.faithfacts.org/bible-101/what-is-the-gospel
;~)
—
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@ Sopwith:
Right on Sopy. I enjoyed those songs by Holly Starr especially the second one “I’ll Watch You Dance”. And good link there about the gospel, including the information about what the gospel isn’t. Thanks for that encouragement today. 🙂
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Probably already mentioned here, but if you really want to understand the church’s teachings on the afterlife, watch Hellbound (I think it is on Netflix right now). I went to a panel discussion with the movie’s creator, several scholars and a Eastern Orthodox Archbishop (? think that was his title?). Anyways, I think every Christian should watch it, even if they don’t agree – it gives and excellent summary of the early church’s view of the afterlife, raises serious questions about our current views of Hell and points out scripture is pretty evenly split on Hell (eternal or not eternal conscious torment), Annihilation-ism, and Universalism. It also shows how the Catholic church came to the views of Hades and Paradise. Very interesting, very informative and even if you remain committed to a Hell afterwards, it will certainly clear up biblically and historically why others don’t come to that conclusion in equally good conscious.
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Thanks Val. I’ll look at it.
If it is just a mockumentary about the concept of hell though, then I won’t make it through it.
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@ Val:
Val – thanks for the recommendation. I went and watched it. When it began by having MD and De Young, et al, speaking I was wondering what I had gotten into…but as I continued to watch, I liked the discussion. Not sure what my thoughts are – but leaning toward hopeful universalism ala Origen. 😉
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@ THC:
Nope, not a mockumentary at all, the creator of the film is a Christian. It just raises questions. Sure, the film-maker has a bent, but don’t we all. I liked it because I like learning about Christian history and different perspectives.
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Nancy wrote:
As usual I’m days behind on a great discussion. Had to add me too, too on these above. Mystery. Yes. And not to be confused with blind acceptance – but rather the awe of how truth pierces, loves and transforms.
Though I’d be unmoved at the screamers about hell (stare blankly like Dee mentioned) and it was profound love and forgiveness that changed me to a believer, my opened mind also acknowledges that sometimes the hardest truths spoken have helped me more in life than soft sympathy. As others have commented, it depends on the person, soul and moment.
I think there were many seeds planted in me before I had my conversion moment. So many, that I can never say what is more valuable than others. I think that’s why, our only goal should be to stay in constant communion with God- rather than having an ambitious agenda of converting souls. That’s Gods business.
Bruce- I get it totally. It sounds that way to me as well. I always wish that energy was put towards the message of -come as you are- and come is you are weary and burdened. I think it would resonate with a lot more people.
And Paula, I bet your passion and devotion just made you miss that Bruce wasn’t asking for anything(proof)- but was just sharing an observation. It’s hard to avoid the temptation to fight for your truth. Remember the Holy Spirit isn’t on vaca. It’s all good.
So there’s my input- days after the party, confetti on the floor. 🙂
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Come if (not is)
Pecking on my phone isn’t a good habit.
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@ Patrice:
Patrice I love your patient thoughtful balanced kindness without giving up. (And everyone else, for that matter). Great issue (how we relate to those with different views, abridged) -very relevant regarding this blog since it’s a complex yet gorgeous mix of beliefs. I am convicted of laziness… My desire for a nap often outweighs my struggle to communicate. 🙂
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Very helpful. If you could have piped up a little earlier, this whole thing could have been a lot shorter and I could be back to work already.
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I’ve been chewing on this all weekend, trying to get my mind around all this. I think it comes down to the following. Evangelicalism always needs an enemy. It always needs someone to wage war, attack, demonize, etc… Parts of evangelicalism is profound for its intensity and its hate. And when you back it up with scripture I think I now understand why events like the Crusades occurred.
But evangelicalism will always need an enemy. In its history which has evolved and changed the following have been an enemy at one point. Some of these are ongoing, by the way. Meaning once marked, always marked.
1. The Federal Government
2. Women
3. Academia
4. Science & Scientists
5. The Porn Industry
6. Planned Parenthood
7. Gays
8. Atheists and agnostics
9. Communists
10. School Boards and Education System
11. Moderate Christians
12. Mainline Protestants
13. Catholics
14. Modern Culture
15. Alcohol
16. Dancing and Music
17. Theater
The 18th point now appears to be transgenderism.
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I really like Bruce and his thoughts. There is so muhc we can leanr and understand from him. I’m glad he sticks around and hopes he participates more often.
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Eric
I am an example of precisely that which you are arguing against. I was drawn into the faith by my understanding that the God of the universe loved me. I was watching an episode of Star trek at the time. Oh, don’t worry. I started reading my Bible and learned all about sin. But sin had nothing to do with my conversion.