Kings or Kinks?

Third !?

Love you Deebs!!!

I’m listening now to Pirate Christian Radio now on my TuneIn Radio app now !!

Pirate Christian Radio link:
http://www.piratechristianradio.com

  __

“The gospel (da good news) in a nutshell.”

hmmm…

“There must be a gospel™ statement in all of this but I’ll leave that to my theological betters to figure out…” -Dee

Hey,

May I take a moment of your time?

hmmm…

  The bible says that God sent His Son Jesus, in the likeness of man into the world to redeem us from our sins and separation from Himself. That God was happy to do so. The bible also says that those who believe in Jesus, God grants new birth, and eternal life with Him in His heaven. During the remainder of our time here on earth, Jesus has asked us to love God first with all, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. He has also asked us to tell others about what He has done, about His marvelous love, and His generous offer of new birth and eternal life with Him in His heaven, and to wait for His glorious coming.

(You can read more in the pages of the bible, if you have one…you can read online if you don’t  : http://www.biblegateway.com/ )

Have you experienced this new birth spoken of in the bible?

Will heaven be your home throughout all eternity?

Have you accepted this wonderful work that Jesus did for you, and do you have this wonderful hope resting within yourself today?

  God so loved you, that He sent His Son, Jesus, if you will believe in Him, God will redeem you and give you new birth, and invite you to His glorious heaven, when this life is over.

Please take advantage of this wonderful opportunity.

You’ll be glad that you did!

Blessings!

—–
P.S. Where has the good news gone? Kind church folk, lõõk and see, the fields are white with harvest!

(smiley face goes here)

ATB

Sopy

—

@ Sopwith:
Merci Beaucoup pour les bons mots!!!

Formidable!

(Ty 4 the good words, awesome). Loosely translated

“Pastor So-&-So

“Lead Pastor”

“Pastor of Green Living”

“Pastor of BBQ”

“Pastor of Board Games”

“I am sorry as your Pastor that I failed you”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

yeah…. as meaningful as the words “Lifetime Warranty” on that appliance you just bought.

PASTOR: The New #1 Word That Has Lost All Meaning

(I think it has just now surpassed “Gospel” in meaninglessness)

A cousin of mine who lives in Seattle and has rejected the hypocritical Christianity of her youth calls Mars Hill a cult.

I’m so happy that TWW, Warren Throckmorton, and Wenatchee the Hatchett prove that we Christians are policing our own and calling them on their bad behavior.

I’ve been sending my cousin links to these exposés and she is starting to see that some Christians actually live like Jesus and care about integrity, honor, and truth.

I’m going to write a few general things about the factors a court is going to take into consideration when looking at a non-compete agreement, and then I’ll look at what has been described as Mars Hill’s non-compete agreement. This is not legal advice, and if someone is conversant with Washington state employment law and has access to Westlaw and can cite applicable cases, I will very much defer to your expertise.

That said:

* A non-compete is only enforceable as long as its restrictions aren’t greater than reasonably necessary to protect the business or good will of the employer.

* There has to be an actual contract formed between the employer and employee in order for a non-compete to be valid. (And yes, this is a big deal.) This includes consideration (i.e., payment). There may also be timing issues with regards to the presentation of the agreement, i.e., was it signed under duress?

* The non-compete has to be reasonable with regard to time. Usually that means a certain set period of time, usually not to exceed a couple of years.

* The non-compete has to be reasonable with regard to area. You can’t unreasonably restrict the ability of the employee to earn a living in the local area.

* A court is going to do a balancing of the harms between the employer and the employee. Is the employee’s action going to harm the employer’s business as opposed to other competitors in the same line of business?

* Did the former employee solicit business from the former employer? If that’s the case, it could weigh against the employee.

Turning now to the Unity of Mission portion from Warren Throckmorton’s site, if these five paragraphs are the non-compete agreement, it is woefully lacking in a number of areas, to wit:

* There appears to be no consideration (for example, “In exchange for three months’ salary, I (state your name)…”). So it might not even be a contract to start out with.
* There appears to be no time period stated (e.g., “for the period of 12 months beginning my last day of work at Mars Hill Ballard …”)

I’m sure there are other things missing.

However, the one point that IS dreadfully, painfully clear from this agreement is that one cannot work in a church within 10 miles of a Mars Hill plant. As can be seen from the image above, that pretty much excludes pretty much the entire Seattle metropolitan area. Don’t forget, the charmed circles also include the city of Portland, a chunk of Orange County, California, a chunk of Albuquerque, NM, and most of the city of Phoenix proper, with some parts of Scottsdale, Tempe and possibly into Ahwatukee and Guadalupe. (I figured out my work site would be within the charmed circle, but not my home.)

That, my friends, is excessive, IMHO. I think a judge would find it to be so as well.

I Googled “sample non-compete agreement” and came up with quite a few examples, which I would encourage people to look at. And then come back and look at that Part 6 Unity of Mission statement. It appears to have a lot of stuff missing. I would like to see the rest of the Mars Hill agreement to see if this truly meets the standard of being a contract. I have a sneaking suspicion that if the rest of the agreement is as vague as Part 6, it may be about as enforceable as the “freeloader bill” Scientology hands to people who route out of the Sea Org. Which is to say, it’s not enforceable at all.

And yeah, I went there. I personally think there’s something very wrong about a church requiring pastors to sign a non-compete contract, even if absolutely legal. Absent the rest of this agreement to review, in my opinion I’d have to say that the “Unity of Mission” statement is not a binding contract. Yeah, I think Mark Driscoll and the other executive elders at Mars Hill have outdone David Miscavige. I would congratulate the executive elders except being like the tiny tyrant of Scientology is something people should not aspire to.

brad/futuristguy wrote:

where Mars Hill is imploding

Make that *whether* Mars Hill is imploding.

@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
All that’s true and this agreement would be unenforceable even if there were actual consideration, but the real problem and the real reason no court would ever take the case is the First Amendment. No court anywhere us going to touch the definition of what it means to serve in a church. The term could include anything from Altar Guild to Head Pastor. Heck, the way some churches define membership, merely being an active member could qualify as serving. The real reason for this agreement is clearly intimidation of both the signer and any church he might some day want to go to.

As to the “Prophet, Priest and King” thing, in my experience, it comes from a certain flavor of Chrismatic/Pentecostalism in the Dominionist area. A little surprised that it is cropping up in MH, maybe the Ceej’s influence?

The general idea is, in the OT, there are three ‘offices’ – Prophet, Priest and King. Jesus was the only one to fill all three offices simultaneously. And…since we are ‘in Christ’ and ‘seated with Him’ and made ‘priests and kings’ to God through Him…..well, you get the idea. Somehow, it devolves quickly into the leaders having these titles and the pew warmers not reaching higher than maybe ‘knight’….

This was part and parcel of the church I exited 7 years ago. My pastor was (still is?) known to introduce himself in public (non-church) places even as ‘Lord John’. Yeah. We were subtly (not overtly) encouraged to view him as our king – though he never went so far as to commit that to paper (that I’m aware of). Preached it, though.

As to the letter ‘King’ Sutton wrote concerning the transition of the elder….yeah, sounds eerily familiar to the one my former pastor wrote to the leadership team when they threw out my friend….man, I wish I had a copy of the letter, but they did not distribute it – they only read it to us.

And the attempt to silence – he tried to get me to not talk about what was going on. When I would not back down, he asked me to think about how my actions would ‘hurt the sheep’. Never mind what his actions were doing. If they had thought of the ‘no compete’ clause – well, to be honest, since I was a volunteer leader, not staff…but I doubt they would go there – they were too tight to offer severance packages….

Anyway…yes, this is very familiar – and I hope for the sakes of all involved that it does herald the collapse of this machine….

ya know, I’ve been wrangling with health insurance for weeks. on hold for cumulative hours upon hours, trying to get answers, explanations. In the end, all I get is some poor soul who has been given hardly any information and is incapable of helping me. which buys time and money for those in ivory towers, completely ignorant of what their glib decisions and pronouncements uttered from aloft mean for those on the ground.

the whole thing is laden with maddening confusion, maddening frustration, everything ridiculously & unnecessarily convoluted.

in my observation, health insurance has become full of corruption. white-collared evil. it’s very logical to me why the extreme confusion, frustration, convolution. I think these things are by-products of evil when it becomes woven in to something.

I see many parallels to all the intrigue surrounding mars hill, SGM, complementarianism, “pastoral” authoritarianism, shepherding, etc.

If and when any of us feel led to serve the Lord somewhere other than at one of the church locations of Mars Hill Church, we will submit our opportunity to one another and our Executive Elders first in accordance with Proverbs 11:14, “Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.”

Together this day, we commit that our next church ministry will not be within ten miles of any location of Mars Hill Church, except with the express consent of the local pastors of the nearest church, the sending church, if different, and the Executive Elders of Mars Hill Church .

How can you commit that your next church will not be within 10mi of a MH campus when you’re waiting on God to lead you to your next church? You can know the future mind of God so impeccably that you can sign a (presumably) legally binding agreement promising that He won’t put you at a church less than 10mi away? In what universe does this make sense?

@ elastigirl:

“in my observation, health insurance has become full of corruption. white-collared evil. it’s very logical to me why the extreme confusion, frustration, convolution. I think these things are by-products of evil when it becomes woven in to something.

I see many parallels to all the intrigue surrounding mars hill, SGM, complementarianism, “pastoral” authoritarianism, shepherding, etc.”
+++++++++++++++++++++

we can call it clerical-collared evil.

Hester wrote:

If and when any of us feel led to serve the Lord somewhere other than at one of the church locations of Mars Hill Church, we will submit our opportunity to one another and our Executive Elders first in accordance with Proverbs 11:14, “Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.”
Together this day, we commit that our next church ministry will not be within ten miles of any location of Mars Hill Church, except with the express consent of the local pastors of the nearest church, the sending church, if different, and the Executive Elders of Mars Hill Church .
How can you commit that your next church will not be within 10mi of a MH campus when you’re waiting on God to lead you to your next church? You can know the future mind of God so impeccably that you can sign a (presumably) legally binding agreement promising that He won’t put you at a church less than 10mi away? In what universe does this make sense?

In the universe where you are god and you have excluded the real God. How is this confusing?

(i.e. EXACTLY. You make a GREAT point.)

The comparison of Mars Hill to an empire is ever so appropriate.

@ Daisy:
+1

dee wrote:

So, can I hire you to do legal analysis? The pay is awful but, with a little bit of persuasion, we could be persuaded to crown you Duchess or whatever title you might prefer>

Ah, but I must respectfully decline. My current employer is jealous of my affections, being a too big to fail bank and all.

People have been very kind to the Smidts, raising considerable funds to tide them over. I Was sad tgough when I read a post on another blog from March in which a mother tells her family story. She and her husband began attending Mars Hill because her daughter and son in law attended, but after a year they felt something was amiss and stopped attending. According to her Pastor Smidt advised her daughter and SIL to cut ties with them; the SIL has told them the estrangement is permanent. They have never even seen their grandchild. This is a heartbreaking

“As I write this, supporters of fired Mars Hill pastor Phil Smidt have raised nearly twice as much money as the established goal, almost $40k, in less than two days. Many donors were former Mars Hill leaders and members, a kind of Mars Hill church in exile.”
++++++++++++++++++++++

this is good.

but I say Phil Smidt should give it to Paul Petry and Bent Meyer. Phil Smidt’s express action/inaction supported the firings and trials of Pastors Paul Petry and Bent Meyer, and the subsequent shunning of Paul Petry.

http://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/will-i-follow-the-leadership-of-an-ex-mars-hill-elder/

@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
Totally and completely unenforceable. It basically violates every rule about non compete clauses ever, as you pointed out, even if you could get past the First Amendment issues.

@ burnrnorton:

“The truth is, no one really understands this stuff except MAYBE the highest up in the insurance companies. It’s a strategy to get more money by denying, delaying, and blinding everyone with so much BS that they get don’t know exactly how they’re being bilked.”
++++++++++++++++++

so, continuing our conversation over here in the corner, what is a pion like me to do??

From 4: “I love you all very much and am deeply grieved by the transitions that have occurred.”

Translation: “Doesn’t it suck that there are elders who don’t think exactly like me?”

From 3: “As Pastors, we commit together that we will serve the best interests of our Savior Jesus Christ, and our church, Mars Hill Church. If and when any of us feel led to serve the Lord somewhere other than at one of the church locations of Mars Hill Church, we will submit our opportunity to one another and our Executive Elders first in accordance with Proverbs 11:14, “Where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of counselors there is safety.”

Translation: “WE are the indispensable source of guidance and counsel. And anything you think of as guidance and counsel that excludes us is NO GUIDANCE AT ALL.”

From the main Body of the article:

2. The “Shut up and tithe to the prophet, priest and king (and maybe a talking donkey or two) and don’t ask questions” teaching.

Too anemic. How about this?

and mayhap a braying ass or two

Ah, the Elizabethan version, now that’s got panache!

Not surprised to see this. I am hopeful one day soon the smell of Mars Hill will be so overwhelming that most self respecting christians will run in the other direction. And while I feel bad for yet another pastor being fired, we have to ask ourselves…How much have these men contributed to the mess? How many of them have added to the those who have been cut off or are suffering? I believe Phil has some very public repenting to do here. I have read many blogs and stories of survivors and many of the men now FINALLY standing up have played roles in the pain of others. To them I say please don’t now cry wolf when you were all eating sheep just a few years ago. That is how I feel and I don’t think much will change for many of us hurt until we see true repentance from those involved in the public shunnings.

  __

Where Da Buck Stops: “The Seven Eyes?” [1]

hmmm…

…desperate in need of ‘good  news’: meetz 501(3) proverbial pastoral ravenous wolves, perhaps?

(pastor, what big teeth you have…He, He)

huh?

  Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν. πάντα διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν, ὃ γέγονεν. ἐν αὐτῷ 1ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει, καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν. ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης· οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσι διʼ αὐτοῦ. οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλʼ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός. ἦν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν, ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον. ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος διʼ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω. [2]

What?

  Is the bible becoming Greek (i.e. a closed message) to all those who desperately need the ‘good  news’? Have the 501(3) proverbial pastoral wolves taken all for themselves and left nothing for those who would heed the call of Christ and open their doors?

(tears)

What?

  “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: ‘justice’ and ‘mercy’ and ‘faithfulness;’ but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of ‘robbery’ and ‘self-indulgence’.…” – Jesus

(sadface)

Skreeeeeeeeeeeeetch!

  “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie…” -Jesus

ATB

Sopy
___
[1] “Eyes” – (Strong’s Concordance – Greek) #3788 ophthalmos (of-thal-mos’); from #3700; the eye (literally or figuratively); by implication, vision; figuratively, envy (from the jealous side-glance). “And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.” – Revelation 5:6 ; Strings #3700 optanomai (op-tan’-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op’-tom-ahee); to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable). Ophthalmos, literally or figuratively, means vision. It is taken from the prime word “optomai” which means to gaze with wide open eyes, as at something remarkable.  The eyes of the Lord observes as the Christian is born again through faith in Himself as their Savior. Jesus responds to all those who believes in the good news of the gospel preached according to the scriptures, and repents of their sin and accepts Christ as Lord! There is a special place in their lives for Jesus, and a comfy home waiting for them in God’s heaven…This is certainly remarkable !

[2] Gr. NT;  John 1-10; F.H.A. Scrivener

🙂

—

Jed Paschall wrote:

Sounds like someone should write a screenplay – “Nietzsche Plants a Church”, I would fully expect an appearance of a Christian consultant from an agency along the lines of Machiavelli Church Resources to be one of Mark, errr Freidrech’s most trusted confidants. It’d be a real yarn.

Oh well, Machiavelli with tactics quite telling could surely show up as a Prince …
a King who’s in training, humility feigning, but ultimately making us wince.
Then who could be the Prophet we see, and who then could function as Priest?
Perhaps matters not for the who that they’ve got may soon enough find they’re “released.”

(It doesn’t have to be in iambic pentameter, right?)

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist: this seems to be a reiteration of some weirdness that was making the rounds in charismatic circles 25-30 years ago.

“There must be a gospel™ statement in all of this but I’ll leave that to my theological betters to figure out.”

OK, OK, I’m working on it …. 🙂

There used to be a tradition in the UK that pastors would be more spiritual if they were kept on a modest income at best, and even poverty at worst. As a reaction to this, the house-church movement thought they should be paid a better wage, which I would agree with, but this seems over the years to have meant they can become very well off through all the ‘love offerings’ and tithes given to them. What started out good morphed into a more worldly attitude where managers are perceived to be worth vastly more than those they manage. And sometimes regardless of whether they do a good job. Sadly pastoring is now regarded as a professional job to be paid on the same basis as other professional jobs that attract a high salary.

I doubt if this shift to worldliness was ever intentional, but I really can’t get my poor brain round the idea you can serve God and the church and be paid $600,000-$900,000. It doesn’t say you ought to do your best not to serve God and mammon, it says you can’t! It’s either/or.

As for being a King, there is a very easy way for church members to stop this kind of nonsense, and that would be to start addressing pastors and elders as ‘your majesty’.

Daisy wrote:

I wonder if that is because the size of Mark Driscoll’s ego is ten miles in diameter? Hmm. I would’ve thought it larger than that.

Overlapping ten mile radius circles that, in the Mars Hill vision eventually cover every metropolitan area in the U.S. One thing we can be sure there is never a shortage of, wrt Mars Hill: Driscoll’s ego.

elastigirl wrote:

the whole thing is laden with maddening confusion, maddening frustration, everything ridiculously & unnecessarily convoluted.

Sounds like a former employer of mine, the VA.

I’ve read thru the Mars Hill post/comments of late. Maybe I am missing something but can anyone tell me – is Mark Driscoll still in charge?? I mean – it sounds like they are editing one of the “Kings” – so has he become a figure head? I am surprised he puts up with being edited.

I guess they must really be feeling some outside pressure if they decided to give Smidt a severance package.
Love all of the “King” comments!

Nancy wrote:

There is the option for single party (government) payor.

You mean you’d rather deal with one set of semiarbitrary rules than hundreds thar keep changing without notice. That’s crazy talk.

In all seriousness, we probably don’t want to derail the thread with that debate ; )

burnrnorton wrote:

That’s crazy talk.

Would that be like crazy religion, crazy educational system, crazy government(s), crazy economic system, crazy international policies, crazy media, crazy entertainment industry…crazy …crazy?

I think that, and we all know that it is correct if I think it:

We all need to develop survival skills for the existing craziness, and
This is not the venue for discussing it right now.

BD wrote:

Breaking…
It appears Mars Hill has reversed it’s decision regarding the Smidt severance package:
At 6pm tonight Scott Harris, Lead Pastor of Mars Hill Ballard, contacted Phil and notified him that Mars Hill had reversed its position and has elected to give the Smidt family the severance offered previously – but this time without conditions. Phil accepted this offer at 7pm.
The information is at Dr. Throckmorton’s blog: http://tinyurl.com/obnmgrn

Thank God for blogs like Throckmorton’s, TWW, et. al. that shine a light on the despicable behavior of these celebrity preachers and help publicly shame them into doing the right thing.

Question of the day for Mars Hill supporters: If Mars Hill was truly Christian, would they need to be shamed into acting in a Christian manner?

dee wrote:

Inquiring minds want to know: How do I get to become King?

In the case of Sutton Turner, I think you need to acquire the divine gift of seeing things, in the way Mark Driscoll sees things.

And there’s no doubt Turner had a vision in which he saw emerge from the waters the Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, holding aloft Excalibur, thus signifying, by divine providence, that he was to carry it, and thus become a king.

Ken wrote:

I doubt if this shift to worldliness was ever intentional, but I really can’t get my poor brain round the idea you can serve God and the church and be paid $600,000-$900,000. It doesn’t say you ought to do your best not to serve God and mammon, it says you can’t! It’s either/or.

At some point things become intentional, however they start out. At some point people have a moment in which they see what they are doing and decide to continue in that direction, perhaps telling themselves that the good they think they accomplish justifies the bad that they do. With money they tend to say that it is alright to have money, just don’t let money be your god. This then acts like an anesthetic and they sometimes do not seem to even know when they cross into worship of their new god.

Of course, most sins are like that. They sneak up on you in disguise.

Ken wrote:

As for being a King, there is a very easy way for church members to stop this kind of nonsense, and that would be to start addressing pastors and elders as ‘your majesty’.

I did start calling a protestant pastor “Father” one time. He did not think it was funny. It was not intended to be funny. But he did back off–from me anyhow.

An Attorney wrote:

If you keep working up, and the answer you are seeking can be accommodated by the organization, the person will accede and give you what you are asking rather than let their boss know that they could not handle the issue!!!

Of course, the corollary to this when managing managers is: It’s easier to get forgiveness than permission. (This may not apply to some of the mega churches often discussed on TWW.)

Ken wrote:

As for being a King, there is a very easy way for church members to stop this kind of nonsense, and that would be to start addressing pastors and elders as ‘your majesty’.

Especcially if His Majesty has Armorbearers like The Hound and The Mountain and is perfectly willing to use them.

burnrnorton wrote:

That’s crazy talk.

Doc Simon: “How much did the Feds pay you to sell out River and me on Ariel?”
Jayne: “That’s crazy talk.”
Doc Simon: “Then let’s talk crazy. How much?”

Paula wrote:

Janet Varin wrote:

I finally had enough wisdom to be skeptical when Pastor Tullian displayed some courage, especially on the Janet Mefferd show. But I was surprised when he back-pedaled all over the place. I tweeted my disappointment @Pastor Tullian yesterday, but I think my post never made it out of moderation. I had to stop checking because I was nauseated by tweets praising his “humility.”

I don’t know the story behind this, but I’m guessing it is tied in to the position he holds as Senior Pastor of the Megachurch Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, which is PCA. The elders there were no doubt supportive of his having joined TGC when he did, but were they behind his statements he made surrounding his leaving? Since his membership within TGC wasn’t just personal but also representative of his religious association (his church and the PCA) like the other men involved, perhaps his remarks were viewed as too personal and independent of those of the people and the board of elders he represents? I never read that he had discussed the matter with the elders of his church, adding that they all agreed and backed him up. I’m guessing he reacted from a gut level and spoke out on his own, and that was then called into question.

I could be wrong but that’s my feeling. I liked his gut reaction. But I’m thinking his position has something to do with his retraction.

I liked half of his gut reaction…the one dealing with SGM. Thought he went over the top calling tim/don liars (I am not privy to anything, but in any event seemed like a strong statement and thought he should have taken the high road there). That being said, I found it curious that the ONLY one he mentioned by name was Tim, who I think (not sure what just taylor’s denom is), is the only PCA guy among deyoung, carson, keller, and taylor, which would lend credence to your theory.

srs wrote:

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Nuclear blast radii — the 10-mile radius is about the serious damage radius of a one-megaton warhead and the 100% kill radius of a nine-megaton Titan II.

Isn’t it great that Operation Plowshare is still going on?

At least Operation Plowshare (using nukes for big-time blasting excavation, just wait 100 years for the radiation to go down) was thinking big. Dumb idea in retrospect (pesky radiation spill…), but part of the Can-Do Optimism you found post-WW2.

If we’d had a Global Warming panic in the Fifties, the emphasis would be on “How do we solve this problem? What do we do? “We did it before, and we can do it again!”

But today? WANGST WANGST WANGST! The Plaaaanet is Angry! We must mortify ourselves to atone for our Sins against The Plaaaaaanet! Bring out the hair shirts! Bring out the whips! Everyone gargle lye! Mortification for Our Sins! WANGST! WANGST! WANGST!

Not new willing, be willing. Dang autospell

They are all kings, of course, what else did you think?

Kings – the guys who got all the gold from their subjects. And, at least in the past, absolutism assured that kings were not accountable to any mortal.

And don’t tell me about the BOAA (Board of Advisors and Accountability)! It’s the greatest joke since Furtick’s compensation committee. Let’s call it the Board of mutual back Scratching, or BS in short.

Tullian never called out CJ and Grant Layman before the Gospel Coalition made public their decision to have TT’s blog moved. Thus I am skeptical of TT. Is he all about the Lord, or are most of his responses about himself? And what about the victims? @ Janet Varin:

In further other news, Eugenie Bouchard is serving for the match, but there have been so many breaks of serve in the third set that I don’t think much can be read into that.

Rebecca Lynn wrote:

I have read many blogs and stories of survivors and many of the men now FINALLY standing up have played roles in the pain of others. To them I say please don’t now cry wolf when you were all eating sheep just a few years ago.

Very important point. We tend to see injustice only as far as it concerns ourselves and our friends/family.

And many of these former pastors who hurt by the MHC machine now participated as well-greased cogs in that machine. Maybe they DID have reservations in the face of past injustice perpetrated by the leadership – but they didn’t speak up. And the longer and the more often you keep your mouth shut in the face of injustice, the harder you will find opening your mouth. Until the injustice hits you.

Even with the recent ban on comparisons to the certain parts of 20th century history, I would still like to quote Martin Niemöller here:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007392

Godith wrote:

Tullian never called out CJ and Grant Layman before the Gospel Coalition made public their decision to have TT’s blog moved.

It’s important to remember that Grant Layman’s crucial testimony about not reporting a pedophile to the police occurred JUST ONE WEEK before Tullian Tchividjian spoke out about C.J. Mahaney and The Gospel Coalition.

burnrnorton wrote:

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I love me a good Firefly reference.

Gorram Shiny.

An Attorney wrote:

“The bureaucratic personality and how to abuse it for fun and profit” was the subheading

In the early 80s there was a management book called “The one minute manager”. Shortly thereafter came “The 59 Second Employee”

@ Nick Bulbeck:

I had interactions with Mr. * 30 years ago. “If” the powers to be had asked a twenty something woman what she (and several others) thought of Mr. * they might have saved the Church alot of misery. Most leaders didn’t (still don’t) think women have much to offer. I stayed clear of Mr. *. Unfortunately, he had a stateside buddy who was of a similar make-up whom I didn’t stay clear of. They thought themselves quite dandy! I fear they still do . . .

Sopy, I love you.

King eh?

I want to see Mark Driscoll lean over the podium at his campus with his arms extended and scream; “I’m the King of the World!” just like Leonardo Dicaprio did in Titanic! 😛

KMD wrote:

Many ills can be laid at the feet of CJ/SGM…. But not this one.
I would be interested in hearing the origins.

The prophet/priest/king distinction in church leadership is founded on John Frame’s tri-perspectivalism. For Frame it is a broader epistemology based on his own understanding of how the Trinity affects human knowing. Part of the tri-perspectival theory looks at the three-fold offices of Christ (Prophet/Priest/King), and extrapolates this to how Christ rules the church presently through the three offices.

Keller has picked up on this as well and it does inform certain aspects of church leadership at Redeemer. However, Mark Driscoll has taken Frame’s concepts and put his own spin on them and then absolutized them in terms of church governance. All leadership giftings fall under the broad categories of prophetic, priestly, or kingly gifts, and are assigned accordingly under MHC leadership. Those with ‘priestly’ gifts would be assigned to traditionally diaconal roles such as mercy ministries, and service. Those with “prophetic” gifts are placed in teaching and preaching ministries. Those with “kingly” gifts are given administrative leadership.

The basic distinction between the threefold office of Christ is certainly sound. I don’t even have a problem of using this rubric to better understand the way spiritual gifting functions in the church. But, the gross overemphasis on the tri-perspectival rubric at MHC has lead to an abandonment of traditionally biblical understanding of church leadership. The offices revealed in the NT are elders and deacons, and there is no hard and fast gift-mix given for these offices (except that elders are able to teach sound doctrine), and qualification for these offices is as dependent on proven character as it is gifting. Additionally, there does not seem to be a heierarchy of office, rather elders are equals charged with leading the church (my Presbyterian slip might be showing here). It is as if the leadership has usurped the prophetic/priestly/kingly offices from Christ himself and used them as an impetus to abuse authority. Elders are under-shepherds, not kings, prophets, or priests – they serve under Christ’s threefold offices, not in lieu of them.

Here’s a couple of sources that explain it better than I can:

http://thinktheology.co.uk/blog/article/prophets-priests-kings-frame-keller-and-driscoll

http://www.frame-poythress.org/a-primer-on-perspectivalism/

Marie 2…..I’m 127 today! 😛

Love the salary information…and it puts the “tithe,tithe,tithe” emphasis in a new perspective. The “Pastor” needs a “Gospel Centered Mansion”. How much is Mark Driscoll’s mansion? Something like one million dollars? This seems to be a pattern going on with these guys (James MacDonald who likes to practice “Gospel Centered Gambling” also lives in a million dollar home that once belonged to a former Illinois United States Senator”

KMD wrote:

Many ills can be laid at the feet of CJ/SGM…. But not this one.
I would be interested in hearing the origins.

But both Driscoll and CJ have commented that CJ was a mentor to Driscoll!

KMD wrote:

Many ills can be laid at the feet of CJ/SGM…. But not this one.
I would be interested in hearing the origins.

I believe the more recent revival of this “triperspective theology” is largely from the “wisdom” of Calvinist Theologian John Frame.

acg116 wrote:

I liked half of his gut reaction…the one dealing with SGM. Thought he went over the top calling tim/don liars (I am not privy to anything, but in any event seemed like a strong statement and thought he should have taken the high road there). That being said, I found it curious that the ONLY one he mentioned by name was Tim, who I think (not sure what just taylor’s denom is), is the only PCA guy among deyoung, carson, keller, and taylor, which would lend credence to your theory.

I’m with you here although I remain a bit foggy about his statement regarding Carson and Keller and their statement (charging it was misleading at best) regarding Tchividjian’s departure from TGC. Tullian claims there were discussions regarding doctrinal differences among TGC executives going on that he was not privy to. Yet, for some reason, Carson & Keller referenced those differences as the basis for Tchividjian’s departure, and that the meeting between himself and TGC Executive Director Ben Peays was held to address those difference which Tullian claims is simply untrue:

“The way the statement read, it was as if [Peays] came down to Fort Lauderdale to talk with me on behalf of the coalition regarding the theological issue that they were having with me. That is categorically false,” Tchividjian, who is the pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida, told The Christian Post.

According to Tchividjian, Peays flew down to Florida to help with his new ministry, Liberate. While the two dialogued about removing Tchividjian’s content from TGC’s website, “it was never ever insinuated that that’s what The Gospel Coalition wanted.”

“To cover themselves so they would not look like bullies, they took a trip that Ben took two months ago, turned that trip and made it look like The Gospel Coalition sent him down to cover these concerns – and that’s just a flat-out lie. That’s a lie,” said Tchividjian. “It just calls into question their integrity. Why would they spin it that way? Why did they say it that way?”

Guys from TGC made it a matter of doctrinal difference. Fine. I mean that is their prerogative. If TGC wants to limit the coalition to those who agree with them doctrinally, that is their choice. But why issue a statement about that as the reason when it turns out to be disingenious, and then from there Tchividjian issues an apology in an effort to preserve unity and promote harmony?

It seems to me that instead of Tchividjian being the fall guy and apologizing, it would have been good if Carson and Keller said something in light of the discrepancy that existed between the stories being told, and what appears to their use of DOCTRINE as the reason.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/may/tim-keller-don-carson-explain-why-tullian-tchividjian-tgc.html?paging=off

This is what bothers me about this. Carson and Keller referenced the SPLIT that occurred in the UK between D. M. Lloyd-Jones and John Stott and J. I. Packer as if somehow the whole situation with Tchividjian and TGC were similar in some ways. Personally, I think its dishonest to bring in issues of doctrinal difference as a reason when it really wasn’t true, then turn around and highlight a split that occurred among British Evangelicals – and from there allow Tchividjian to be regarded as trouble maker. Then after he issues his apology, everyone is praising him for being so humble including guys like Russell Moore saying that its “something we all can learn from, and ought to reflect on.”

It seems to me if these guys are so concerned about doctrinal differences, they shouldn’t have mentioned them in the first place. Tchividjian wasn’t highlighting the difference that existed doctrinally. He was highlighting the fact they mentioned the doctrinal difference within the framework of a statement what untruthfully characterized the reason for Tchividjian’s departure. And this is where I think the real problem lies.

To me, this harkens back to the kind of thing Mahaney did within SGM. Mahaney wanted to impose a shift in doctrine without anyone in the church knowing about it. What motivated Mahaney to blackmail Tomzcak and what caused him to act deceptively was a desire to protect the DOCTRINE against censure, and against the possibility his plan would be foiled. I’m sure Mahaney also wanted to hold onto power and to prevent a split because we know behind the scenes he was already manuveuring himself into position and using the problem that had occurred with Tomczak’s son as the driving force behind his power grab (in my view).

Carson and Keller know Mahaney has been aligned doctrinally with them know for years within TGC, and I think their support of Mahaney has largely been due to this fact. They, too, have been motivated to protect their doctrine against censure and it would appear they’re willing to use this issue as a point of departure rather than any deceptive practice or statement that had occurred in the process.

Mahaney publicly stated that Tomzcak departed from CLC for God-awful reasons, when the truth was covered up. Mahaney had acted deceptively behind the scenes and lied about the whole thing in an effort to preserve the thing that he used to wield authority and control, and which he would use to align himself with other leaders like those within TGC. Leaders who proved to provide him with safe haven in the midst of the other, more serious allegations he was charged with.

I don’t get it. It just seems these guys are so keen on protecting their doctrines that they overlook the weightier matters of the law, and assume anyone who agrees with them are somehow more “sanctified” – oh snap!

Bill Kinnon wrote:

KMD wrote:
Many ills can be laid at the feet of CJ/SGM…. But not this one.
I would be interested in hearing the origins.
I believe the more recent revival of this “triperspective theology” is largely from the “wisdom” of Calvinist Theologian John Frame.

Interesting. I see a parallel between Frame’s “tri-perspectivalism” and the way so many topics were treated to three views in so much of the Gothard material. Anyone else see that?
Also, the way Frame refers to it in this essay makes it seem like it was already in practice. Here is the relevant passage:
“The Reformed Confessions and other theological documents often discuss the three offices of Christ as prophet, priest, and king. These offices reflect the same categories we have seen earlier. His kingship represents his control, his prophetic office his authority as the word of God, and his priesthood his work on behalf of his people in history, what we have called his presence.
Since believers are united with Christ, many have drawn analogies between these offices and the status of believers. We too are prophets in the sense that we bear the Gospel message to the world. We are kings in that “all things are ours” (cf. 1 Cor. 3:22-23), and we are priests in the sense of 1 Pet. 2:8 (what the Reformers called “the priesthood of all believers”). In turn, these offices have been seen as models for church officers: the teaching elder (1 Tim. 5:17) represents especially God’s authority; the ruling elder (same verse) God’s control, and the deacon the priestly ministry of mercy. As perspectives, none of these gifts can function adequately without the others. But sometimes one or another is more prominent. Indeed, there are sometimes imbalances in churches that have too much emphasis on teaching, discipline, or mercy at the expense of the others.”

Eagle wrote:

King eh?
I want to see Mark Driscoll lean over the podium at his campus with his arms extended and scream; “I’m the King of the World!” just like Leonardo Dicaprio did in Titanic!

Or perhaps people could make a song and puppet show about this phony king of Seattle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H2rO4HC8s8

An Attorney wrote:

You forgot the necessary hip swivel and lip curl.

And it just occurred to me: the pompadour. I forgot the pompadour.

@ Bill Kinnon:
@ KMD:

I skimmed the John Frame e-book (I started reading it, but rapidly lost the will to live – a lesson for me in there, I suppose!).

But I did notice the same passage you quoted, KMD. Is it not interesting that he equates kingship with control (though God never, even in the OT, sought to control his people or his creation), and teaching with authority? Whether this is another instance of the idolisation of the pulpit, or the reduction of the Biblescriptures to an expanded version of the Law of Moses, or both, I don’t know.

But everywhere else, the King has authority, and the prophet inputs God’s real-time perspective. Aff the top o’ mah heid, I can think of few if any occasions in the OT in which a prophet taught, or expounded the then-existing biblescriptures as if nobody else could read them. Moses was the only exception, and there has never arisen a prophet like him since. How can christian preachers and authors love law so much?

I know a former MH pastor who just resigned within the last six months. He told me that he couldn’t discuss specifics, but he said he wasn’t on the same page with leadership anymore. He has now moved away from the Seattle area (more than the “non-compete radius”), but he is “transitioning” to the corporate world instead of staying in ministry.

I can’t help but wonder – why wouldn’t my friend remain in ministry? He loves it, and he’s trained for it, and he’s not anywhere near the Seattle area…

Nancy wrote:

There is the option for single party (government) payor.

This is actually the only option with sustainable economic modeling. And it has been implemented in at least five distinct forms (examples of each: Great Britain, Canada, Germany, Japan, France). It works, and works very well, but many American voters are more driven by vague philosophies about how things “aught” to be, rather than facts and figures and how things “really are”.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Mr. H said: “I can’t help but wonder – why wouldn’t my friend remain in ministry? He loves it, and he’s trained for it, and he’s not anywhere near the Seattle area…”

Bub Neck Lick said: “… thing is, though, is he trained for ministry? Mars Hill is the corporate world through and through, so he won’t have been trained for ministry there.”
++++++++++++++++++++

TIME…..TIME…..alright — what in the world is ministry? there’s training for this?? to me it usually seems to mean admin and people skills with a “sanctified” sticker on it.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Wonky point on this thread derail – the German and French systems are actually multipayer, although prices and coverage is highly regulated and subsidized. And while coverage can be linked to employment, you don’t lose coverage or substantially change benefits when you lose or change employment.

burnrnorton wrote:

Wonky point on this thread derail – the German and French systems are actually multipayer, although prices and coverage is highly regulated and subsidized. And while coverage can be linked to employment, you don’t lose coverage or substantially change benefits when you lose or change employment.

Not to contradict you, but they are considered single payor systems. While they are administered by licensed third parties, they do not set their own rates, their own plans, or their own coverage options. For more details, reference: Delivering Health Care in America: A Systems Approach by Shi Singh.

Eagle wrote:

King eh?
I want to see Mark Driscoll lean over the podium at his campus with his arms extended and scream; “I’m the King of the World!” just like Leonardo Dicaprio did in Titanic!

Or James Cagney at the end of White Heat:

“TOP OF THE WORLD, MA!”

@ pcapastor:
Thank you friend 🙂

Eagle wrote:

Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill are interchangeable…meaning they are one of the same. One cannot exist without the other.

I think Driscoll fashioned it that way. I’m pretty sure I read something on the internet months ago where Driscoll said in a church meeting to the others present that he is the Mars Hill brand.

Where have all the pastors gone? At least 10 miles away.

I would be willing to mediate the dispute at Mars Hill for 1/2 of the amount the group they will hire. I am licensed to practice law in 2 states, have practiced for 28 years, have worked on local church boards and served in leadership in other Christian organizations. I have also worked on and mediated church disputes.

I would sincerely like to help.

But I have a rule about communication. It has to be open and honest and not loaded with biblical phrases. So, if a person has an issue with the leadership in the church because the church has a policy that does not allow the disclosure of the finances of the church, any communications with or regarding that person should say, “Mr. ______ has left (not “transitioned”) our church because he disagrees with the church’s policy of not disclosing information regarding the finances of the church.” Not – “Mr. _______ has transitioned from leadership because he and our elders did not share the vision of … blah, blah, blah.”

Anything can be worked out if people speak freely and honestly.

But if people speak in code, and try to one-up the other or hide true facts through euphemisms or biblical or semi-biblical quotes, that is a great impediment to true mediation.

Let me know if you get any takers on my mediation offer.

There’s a new website up with stories from former Mars Hill attendees:

http://welovemarshill.com/

I’ve read two so far.

I have been a mediator (part time, with other assignments and activities) for 44 years, and an attorney for 15. I have been a CEO and a solo practioner, and I have worked with churches with a wide variety of theologies and ecclesiologies, from extremely conservative evangelical to moderate, and from extremely authority oriented to completely democratic and egalitarian. I would be willing to undertake the mediation for expenses and $1,000.00 a day, with the proviso, that I can hire, at MH expense, additional local or regional people (one or two) to assist at comparable rates. I have also served as an arbitrator. Require absolute confidentiality of what is said during the mediation, unless we reach some kind of settlement.

I once mediated a divorce that had lasted many months, without progress, involving the top divorce lawyers in a top 25 population city. We started at 1:00 and before 5:00 had a settlement to put before a judge. Mostly because I forced everyone to think about their circumstances in the matter differently than they had in the past, got them to narrow the issues, choose their preferred outcome on each issue (hers or his ownership, e.g., for each item of property), which resulted in only two properties on which we had to negotiate.

I have helped churches when pastors were not loyal to their spouse, and have helped churches with bylaws and organization structures.

I have a Ph.D. in Social Psychology, with graduate work in cooperation and conflict resolution. If any one is interested, Dee/Deb know how to contact me.

Mirele said:

“But a lot of women are not in a financial position where they can stay at home with their kids and they shouldn’t be made to feel less because they don’t meet this expectation. Nor should women be made to feel that children, home and church are their only roles in life. It is my understanding, however, that this is what is expected at Mars Hill. I am less familiar with the Neo-Calvinists, so I can’t say if this is the case in other outfits, but it wouldn’t surprise me.”

This was also expected at my former PCA church, where the pastor and elders had been significantly influenced by the Federal Vision guys, the Bayly brothers, and others. To listen to them (pastor and elders) talk, if only you do the ‘biblical’ thing then OF COURSE God will come through with that high paying job. He has to! Surely He wouldn’t let a wife be forced into “wage slavery” where her loyalty will be divided between her husband and her boss, right? And if all else fails, surely the church’s diaconate will rise to the occasion to ensure that she may remain in her proper sphere…

NJ wrote:

Mirele said:
“But a lot of women are not in a financial position where they can stay at home with their kids and they shouldn’t be made to feel less because they don’t meet this expectation. Nor should women be made to feel that children, home and church are their only roles in life. It is my understanding, however, that this is what is expected at Mars Hill. I am less familiar with the Neo-Calvinists, so I can’t say if this is the case in other outfits, but it wouldn’t surprise me.”
This was also expected at my former PCA church, where the pastor and elders had been significantly influenced by the Federal Vision guys, the Bayly brothers, and others. To listen to them (pastor and elders) talk, if only you do the ‘biblical’ thing then OF COURSE God will come through with that high paying job. He has to! Surely He wouldn’t let a wife be forced into “wage slavery” where her loyalty will be divided between her husband and her boss, right? And if all else fails, surely the church’s diaconate will rise to the occasion to ensure that she may remain in her proper sphere…

Glad that’s your FORMER church, and that you saw through it. I wish that sort of garbage wasn’t in the PCA, but sadly it is far too common — maybe (a guess) in 20% of our churches, despite the requirement that our clergy be educated (college degree and masters degree). Hard to believe that anyone who has actually spent any time being educated here on planet earth could hold to and teach that sort of nonsense.

NJ wrote:

This was also expected at my former PCA church, where the pastor and elders had been significantly influenced by the Federal Vision guys, the Bayly brothers, and others. To listen to them (pastor and elders) talk, if only you do the ‘biblical’ thing then OF COURSE God will come through with that high paying job. He has to! Surely He wouldn’t let a wife be forced into “wage slavery” where her loyalty will be divided between her husband and her boss, right? And if all else fails, surely the church’s diaconate will rise to the occasion to ensure that she may remain in her proper sphere…

I’d like to echo pcapastor’s comments here, and commend him for being an honorable man in our embattled denomination. Due to the economic crash of 2008, and the loss of my family business, I became a stay-at-home dad to go back to school, and worked nights and graveyard shifts to make sure our kids always had someone to come home to. My wife has a far more stable job in education, and with one kiddo who has a heart condition, and the need for good benefits, staying home was a difficult, but obvious choice.

I can say, after being at home for our three kiddos, that nothing is more difficult or rewarding as raising kids. These cowardly chauvinists like Driscoll, or the Bayly Bros. wouldn’t last a day at home with the kids, yet constantly demean women by their faux-protectionism, and by their elevation of the stay-at-home mom as the “biblical” model for womanhood. While it is certainly a noble role, women are not bound by Scripture to do anything but to be the godly wives, mothers, co-workers, and whatever else God has called them to be (the flip-side is true for men). In fact, if we wanted to get really “biblical”, the man and the woman and the kids all worked side-by-side in an agrarian society, all were responsible for the economic well being of the family (a curious and often necessary parallell to the dual-income family of today). No man needs to feel castrated by doing what is best for his family, even if it means staying at home full or part time (many of my friends in fire depts and law-enforcement are part-time stay-at-home dads due to the high cost of living in CA), rather he should be honored that he can take such a hands-on role with his family. Not only do these guys (anyone in the patriarchy movement – hard or soft core) whiff on Scripture, they whiff on the dynamics of the 21st century economy, where there aren’t full-time jobs available for men in industries like construction (my former industry), manufacturing, or service industries that allow the large majority of families to have a sole breadwinner. Yet, their models of chauvinism, and the fact that many of them have not spent even the most modest time outside of full-time ministry blind them to the fact that they lay an unbearable and unsustainable burden of guilt for not assuming professional roles that have only developed in the last 200 years, and are quickly becoming obsolete in the information economy.

Driscoll talks about being a fan of cage-fighting, yet he wouldn’t last a week in the world that most stay-at-home moms, and some dad’s occupy. I used to get all lathered up by their chauvinism, by their inability to understand what it really means to lay down one’s life (including professional ambitions) to be the kind of husband and father that God calls us men to. Now, I pity them, and pray for the men and women who bear up under the weight of their man-made standards for “biblical manhood and womanhood”. For those of us who don’t have the luxury of high six-figure salaries, and have to bear up under too many bills with too few resources, the distance between their lofty ideals and where the rubber meets the road is an insurmountable gulf. I’ll gladly take Christ any day – at least his yoke is light and his burden is easy in a Christian world that just loves to heap on the guilt.

__

Professional religion men “must give account…” – Hebrews 13:17

hmmm…

Could have fool’d me.

“Sometimes the world makes stubborn pastors and elders do the right thing…” -Dee

—

@ pcapastor:

What has surprised me is that so much of the current nonsense seems to lurk in presbyterianism itself. I had no idea of the prior struggles or the current disagreements within that group of denominations. Back in the day (forgive me for that) when my children were young one of the friends of my daughter was the daughter of the local presbyterian pastor. Nice people. Kind of bland and harmless people, as far as I could tell. One of the pediatricians on staff was active in that church and used to talk to me about his disquiet with stuff in the church, but it was all just minor picky stuff he talked about–light in the window during advent, for example. So I just never got the idea that anything of this sort lurked in the midst of people I thought to be, well, mild and peaceable.

But, for crying out loud, how mistaken can you be? When my parents raised an eyebrow at Billy Graham because of his presbyterian background I should have listened more closely. When they objected when some baptists made peace with the term evangelical early on, I should have perked up and listened. But I was too busy looking at the catholics (there were a lot of them around) and thinking they were so much better than we were, that I just missed the message, so to speak. Of course, that was probably also my salvation from the damage of what is now going on–I was just too oblivious. And too busy, of course.

Anyhow, what I hear you yourself saying again and again is good for me to hear, because I really don’t want to develop some bias against some whole group of people, and you seem knowledgeable and sensible and compassionate. Just saying.

The situation re “transitioned” pastors and elders at Mars Hill is one that is ripe for mediation by an independent mediator, one that is not coming in with preconceived notions of what the solution should be.

The situation between the fired pastors and the church could certainly be mediated but it wouldn’t get to the root of the problem. Given the authority structure, it is easy for Driscoll and allies to fire anyone. The lack of severance pay makes the church look bad, as indicated by the quick and generous donations raised for Phil Smidt. So I can well imagine that a mediator could negotiate a new plan involving severance pay, but the firings will continue as long as staff members voice objections to anything.

The real problem is the authority structure that removes any power from the church members to control budgets, object to unjust behavior, replace pastors preaching incorrect theology, or even ask a simple question about what is going on. Those in control aren’t going to give up power; in fact they are nearly frantic in their attempts to keep it.

@ Deb:
One could get into this King thing, you know.

We hope you don’t mind Us pointing out the typo – ‘she could only become a Pleasant Princess’ was clearly meant. (How’s that for being a creep to get out of being in moderation?)

Actually, there’s one vacancy left for a Mrs. King if anyone’s interested … 🙂

Jed Paschall wrote:

While it is certainly a noble role, women are not bound by Scripture to do anything but to be the godly wives, mothers, co-workers, and whatever else God has called them to be (the flip-side is true for men).

I agree. The insistence on very narrow gender roles by some Christians is insulting to both men and women, and I don’t see any biblical support for it.

I’ve never married and never had children (I’m a woman).

However, most churches I have visited in person, and based on comments by Christians on most Christian blogs and church sites I see on the internet, suggest, or say outright, that a woman’s only godly role in life is to marry and have a baby.

This view of the genders leaves out women who are infertile, who cannot carry a baby to term, who never met the right guy and so never got married and had kids, or women who simply are not interested in having children.

It of course can be insulting to men who never marry, never have kids, or the ones who for whatever reason, stay home to raise the kids while the wife/mom works.

@ Nancy:
It is entirely possible. I knew a pastor who worked full time in a white collar job and also pastored a church. He knew that the salary from the church would never be able to fully provide for his family nor should it. He also had a terminal disease and was able to put aside quite a bit of money for his wife in the event of his death. Two years ago he did pass and due to his planning, his wife was able to go back to school and finish her degree and support herself with the savings as cushion. I wish more pastors would follow the path of this man.

Jed Paschall wrote:

Driscoll talks about being a fan of cage-fighting, yet he wouldn’t last a week in the world that most stay-at-home moms, and some dad’s occupy.

I doubt he’d last a couple minutes inside the fighting cage.
(Now THAT’s a sight to see!)

Jed Paschall wrote:

These cowardly chauvinists like Driscoll, or the Bayly Bros. wouldn’t last a day at home with the kids, yet constantly demean women by their faux-protectionism, and by their elevation of the stay-at-home mom as the “biblical” model for womanhood.

I tell you what this looks like to me. It looks like male on male competition/aggression. Especially when coming out of the mouth of somebody who wants to talk about alleged manhood the way they do. It looks like saying, “I am a better man than you, buddy, because I earn enough money so that my wife does not work. And just look at her, she is so pleased with me that she just loves doing what I tell her. Yes sireee bob tail, I am indeed better than you. Now watch me throw that in your face every chance I get.” I have tried to say this circumspectly, but I have actually heard a lot worse than this from men.

Or else, why would any of these people get so fixated on what somebody else’s wife does or does not do? If they both work it would just mean more money in the plate would it not? What could possibly be more important than that? Verbal cage fighting with the other guys? I don’t know. It just has that appearance to me.

MORE BREAKING NEWS:

FERRER IS A BREAK UP AGAINST RAFA!

THE WORLD HAS OFFICIALLY GONE MAAAAAAAAAAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* Me and everyone else, I suspect

Nancy wrote:

@ pcapastor:
What has surprised me is that so much of the current nonsense seems to lurk in presbyterianism itself. I had no idea of the prior struggles or the current disagreements within that group of denominations. Back in the day (forgive me for that) when my children were young one of the friends of my daughter was the daughter of the local presbyterian pastor. Nice people. Kind of bland and harmless people, as far as I could tell. One of the pediatricians on staff was active in that church and used to talk to me about his disquiet with stuff in the church, but it was all just minor picky stuff he talked about–light in the window during advent, for example. So I just never got the idea that anything of this sort lurked in the midst of people I thought to be, well, mild and peaceable.
But, for crying out loud, how mistaken can you be? When my parents raised an eyebrow at Billy Graham because of his presbyterian background I should have listened more closely. When they objected when some baptists made peace with the term evangelical early on, I should have perked up and listened. But I was too busy looking at the catholics (there were a lot of them around) and thinking they were so much better than we were, that I just missed the message, so to speak. Of course, that was probably also my salvation from the damage of what is now going on–I was just too oblivious. And too busy, of course.
Anyhow, what I hear you yourself saying again and again is good for me to hear, because I really don’t want to develop some bias against some whole group of people, and you seem knowledgeable and sensible and compassionate. Just saying.

Thank you. As long as I remain anonymous I can maintain the illusion of my knowledge and sense and compassion 🙂

Presbyterianism is such a study in contrasts. One of its great selling points (as our Westminster Standards teach) is its strong stand on “Christian Liberty,” i.e.:

“God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship. So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience: and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.”

So much of the nonsense exposed here at TWW would have no chance of taking root in any congregation that holds true to the above principle. A simple, “what you are imposing on us does not come from a reasonable and studied understanding of Scripture, but is an attempt to violate our freedom of conscience, so take that &#@% back to hell where it came from,” would keep the Bill Gothard/Doug Wilson/CJ Mahaney/Doug Phillips/John Piper/RC Sproul jr./Mark Driscoll/etc. destructive nonsense from finding a home in any church, presbyterian or otherwise. And it should be said that many (most?) of the PCA churches I am familiar with have never given that junk a home. Maybe that is just my wishful thinking, though.

Meanwhile, on the other hand, there is NO DOUBT that presbyterianism has been the birthplace and proving ground of more hyper-authoritarian, destructive, extra-biblical (though “proof texted” from the Bible) vileness….think THEONOMY/RACISM/the use of the SWORD to impose church discipline/”Christian America” propaganda/and on and on and on. I honestly don’t know how to explain it. I do appreciate how you worded it, though, “What has surprised me is that so much of the current nonsense seems to lurk in presbyterianism itself.” That is just it, it LURKS here, but (hopefully) has never/will never be FULLY AT HOME here.

StacieMao wrote:

my husband and I caught our first wild honeybee swarm last night!

That’s great. I don’t know much about bees, but the whole nation read about the recent honey bee die-off and how people who had bees could go around from place to place and basically rent out their bees. So, you said “first” and I assume you have bee plans? Good luck to you in that.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

I doubt he’d last a couple minutes inside the fighting cage. (Now THAT’s a sight to see!)

I'd settle for a Bene Gesserit reverend mother just using voice on him to make him howl at the moon on all fours & pi$$ on a fire hydrant.

StacieMao wrote:

We are organic farmers outside of Portland, so there are a LOT of Mars Hill/Driscoll acolytes around here, and a number of them are customers.

One woman, who has become a friend, has a husband who has been unemployed for almost a decade. She has done everything “right”. She has shouldered every burden that the “authorities” at her church have saddled her with. They have five children and the first time they came to my farm to pick up groceries, her oldest said, “Wow! Are we going to LIVE here?” because he was so accustomed to crashing, temporarily, at other people’s homes.

Still, she berates herself for not being “sweet” or submissive enough when her husband quits or is fired from yet another entry level position. She has never held a job, despite being smart, capable, and marketable. All because Mark Driscoll and his ilk have convinced her that the woman’s place is in the home, praying for the husband to step up to the plate and provide. She and her children suffer daily in pursuit of “Biblical, non optional” gender roles.

It makes me furious, and it’s one of many reasons why TWW is so essential. If the church is ever going to move away from the absurdity of this doctrine, people are going to have to speak up.

This makes me so sad to read and is why I wrote what I wrote yesterday. The child’s remark just hit me in the gut. *shakes head* There are too many families struggling along in poverty or near to it because there are these ideas about what work women should do. I’d also add that there are more than a few groups where men also are restricted by pastoral teachings as to the types of jobs they can hold. For example, my employer, with its diverse workplace, would be rather off-limits. In my group, for example, my direct manager is a woman (and a devout Christian), while our senior manager is a woman. That would be so totally unacceptable to guys who have been taught to believe only men should be leaders!

Off topic, but since I know rabbit trails are welcome here: my husband and I caught our first wild honeybee swarm last night! It was 16 hours ago and I’m still really excited about it. 🙂

That’s great! The more bees the merrier!

Nancy wrote:

StacieMao wrote:
my husband and I caught our first wild honeybee swarm last night!
That’s great. I don’t know much about bees, but the whole nation read about the recent honey bee die-off and how people who had bees could go around from place to place and basically rent out their bees. So, you said “first” and I assume you have bee plans? Good luck to you in that.

We have one very healthy, big, thriving hive. But we also had an empty hive box that needed some bees in it. Now we have some! 😀

You know, I’ve heard a LOT about colony collapse disorder, but I’ve never seen it. My neighbor, who has been a beekeeper for 50+ years, has also never seen it. I think that it occurs primarily in traveling commercial hives…the ones who are hauled down to California for the almond blossoms, or to Florida for the citrus blossoms. On the other hand, I have a book on beekeeping that was originally published in the late 19th century, and in it the author describes CCD perfectly. So it might not be a new phenomenon, and it might be cyclical, like most things with bees are. 🙂

It IS getting harder to find wild swarms, because everyone and their sister keeps bees these days and the competition for swarms is pretty fierce (in a nice way, because beekeepers are pretty genial people). My neighbor deliberately allows his hives to split and swarm because he has enough and wants other people to be able to catch them. We will probably do the same, once we have a few hives going.

Deb wrote:

I thought she could only become a Peasant Princess.

Yep, according to Driscoll. He reduced a “prince’s daughter” to a peasant for his Peasant Princess series because:

A) He is NOT the gifted Bible teacher he and his minions think he is. (A REAL Bible teacher would not name an entire series based on false information concerning the Beloved in the Songs.)

B) There is only room for kings in his hierarchy-worshiping brain. No queens. Only pleasant, peasant princesses.

Proof of Driscoll’s poor Bible reading and teaching skills. The beloved is referred to as a prince’s daughter or nobleman’s daughter. She is no peasant.

Songs 7:1 “How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O prince’s [nobleman’s] daughter!
The curves of your hips are like jewels,
The work of the hands of an artist.

Found at:  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+7%3A1&version=NASB

Mara wrote:

Deb wrote:
I thought she could only become a Peasant Princess.
Yep, according to Driscoll. He reduced a “prince’s daughter” to a peasant for his Peasant Princess series because:
A) He is NOT the gifted Bible teacher he and his minions think he is. (A REAL Bible teacher would not name an entire series based on false information concerning the Beloved in the Songs.)
B) There is only room for kings in his hierarchy-worshiping brain. No queens. Only pleasant, peasant princesses.
Proof of Driscoll’s poor Bible reading and teaching skills. The beloved is referred to as a prince’s daughter or nobleman’s daughter. She is no peasant.
Songs 7:1 “How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O prince’s [nobleman’s] daughter!
The curves of your hips are like jewels,
The work of the hands of an artist.
Found at:  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+7%3A1&version=NASB

Songs 7:1 “How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O prince’s [nobleman’s] daughter!
The curves of your hips are like jewels,
The work of the hands of an artist.
Found at:  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+7%3A1&version=NASB

For some reason this reminds me of a story. Requiring an educated clergy does NOT keep out all problems, but it keeps out SOME at least. Could it be that one of the reasons Mark Driscoll (or CJ Mahaney, or Doug Wilson, or Doug Phillips — same pattern) had to start his own church and denomination is because he could not have passed the basic ordination exams required by any/every actual denomination? (The process examines one’s education/knowledge/AND CHARACTER).

Anyway, I heard the (true) story of a contemporary non-denominational mega-church pastor seeking admission into an actual denomination (which I am thankful for; I am NOT making fun of him with this story!), who literally and actually FAINTED during his oral examinations, so unexpectedly grueling the process proved to be for him. The process was exhausting for me as well, by the way.

elastigirl wrote:

(how in the world does one go about catching a swarm of bees?!?)

I wondered that, too… does it have something to do with impersonating a queen? Now that would be on topic.

King? King Rat!

@ Mara:

Oh -the dreaded subject of Song of Solomon… After reading the actual full transcript of Driscoll in Scotland on the subject, it makes any one with any remaining doubt shudder that he still teaches, preaches etc. Just had to say. Old topic, I know, but still.

BTW – off topic (hey, what are the chances an’ a’ tha’), but where’s my union flag gone?

@ Nick Bulbeck:

The missing flag disaster seems to’ve begun with my comment on the rain at Roland Garros. Perhaps there’s a lesson for us all there.

@ Haitch:

I’d settle for any flag at all just the noo!

🙁

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Sometimes, the question Why the **** is this not working for me? just doesn’t have a simple answer.

StacieMao wrote:

It’s just…life. Life happens.

“Verily I say to you” if I may use that phrase, it is life, life does happen, and it happens to everybody. Only some things are more visible to the public and some things not so much. How do I know? I have seen their medical records for one thing, thousands of them. In fact, after I retired from clinical practice I worked for VA doing nothing but pouring over medical records, stacks and stacks of records. Being human is horrendously difficult. My son says that behind every door there is herpes and heartbreak. Not accusing anybody of any particular disease, he just likes to sling words around like that. But it is true. I have lived with/through more (deleted) than I care to recall, but I just don’t talk about it.

I don’t know about anybody else, but at some point I have had to learn how to forgive God for how things are. Never mind He may not have caused it, one has to say He did not solve it, and what then? I don’t know. I have no answers. But it seems to be that we have access to God, to grace (which He told Paul was sufficient) and that will have to do.

elastigirl wrote:

(how in the world does one go about catching a swarm of bees?!?)

Follow them back to their hive. Which can take a while. You will likely loose track of them a few dozen times. 🙂

Then carefully find the queen (without teeing off the rest of them too much) and place her on something that will allow the others to land. There’s a good chance you will wind up covered in bees. Then head home, slowly, and move the queen to her new home.

Never done but seen it a few times. Nothing like a bee hive trying to start on the side of your house to get you flipping through the phone book. Back when we had phone books. 🙂

PS–I’m referring to the video of Driscoll’s sermon that was edited and was about Jesus making mistakes vs sins….

Anon wrote:

He has become a victim of the very monster he helped create

Something about if you play with fire you are apt to get burned?

Nancy wrote:

This could turn into “a really big shew!”

Brought back memories…Ed Sullivan always said that.

Loving all this bee talk. Bees, they are utterly cool…

My whinge for today is that Trollbeads don’t stock a bee charm and I might need to flip over to the dark side and get a Pandora one…

Sad news about our bee stocks and Monsanto’s solution to ’employ’ robotic ones.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/aug/14/bee-news-robotic-bees-pollination

mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

If it’s any consolation, this move may annoy the judge so much that he might resentence Schaap, who was given only 12 years when the range was up to 17–and that’s according to local defense attorneys in the article I read. It would serve Schaap right.

I hope so. He deserves to have another few decades pegged on to his sentence for trying to pull this. It’s bad enough he exploited this young lady, he was caught and is doing time, but trying to weasel out of it by blaming her??? 🙄 Like I said in my last post, he needs to own it.

Haitch wrote:

Sad news about our bee stocks and Monsanto’s solution to ‘employ’ robotic ones.

Global corpocracy and the unanimity they demand will not stop until their own gated Elysium is threatened. And even then they will only slow down long enough to maximize their hold over the downstrata and ensure ‘stability’. Here in the States the honeybees are being systematically worked to death and poisoned by potent new pesticides conjured up in Monsanto’s labs. All to enhance investor confidence. So long as they can keep us fuzzed out with Miley’s latest antics, American Idol, and the Kardashians, what’s not to like?

Well, I’m a little late responding here, but…

To Jed Paschall, pcapastor, StacieMao, Nick Bulbeck, and others,

Thank you so much for affirming what has taken a long time over several years to sink in with me. After over a decade in a PCA church where rigid gender roles were not just the norm but sometimes explicitly preached from the pulpit, where the majority of families homeschooled or did the classical academy thing because the “government” schools were no place for any Christian child (regardless of circumstances), where my husband was expected to work 14+ hours at two jobs if necessary with no end in sight so I would not have to work for an outside boss, I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to see others affirming things I’ve been thinking for a while now; that no, I’m NOT CRAZY. Something really was horribly off about what we were being taught as a nonnegotiable of the faith.

The culture of that church was alright if you happened to be comfortably middle class and hadn’t really suffered any from the Great Recession. Otherwise, one could feel quite out of place there. I am thankful that they never espoused the worst excesses of patriarchy, and the way they conducted worship was generally sound. I do think that they typically mean well, but on some issues they are importing cultural stuff into Scripture and tying burdens onto mens’ backs without lifting so much as a finger to help carry them.

NJ wrote:

After over a decade in a PCA church where rigid gender roles were not just the norm but sometimes explicitly preached from the pulpit

Please see the free articles (under “resources”) on this site:
Christians For Biblical Equality

Nancy wrote:

His name? Terry Virgo.
Oh,oh. I googled him earlier today because I never heard of NewHorizons before

I helped lead in a New Frontiers church a long time ago. For all its anti-denominationalism, I always though it a shame the group itself started to form yet ‘new frontiers’ between different Christians!

The sad thing is that out of all the so-called apostles in the house-church movement, Terry Virgo was one of the most sensible, something I still think having left that scene ages ago. It would be nice to think he might bring a word that would correct what has gone wrong in MH, but I’m not holding my breath. Even Virgo was fooled by the pseudo Toronto Blessing. He may still think that large numbers in churches and conferences indicate God’s blessing, but I am more sceptical of any such correlation.

He doesn’t half look old now! But then none of us is getting any younger …

Mandy wrote:

Just a quick update. Made it to my new home safely. My poor cat is grateful to finally be out of that darn carrier. 12 hours of driving two days in a row is exhausting for both humans and felines.

Glad you made it safely. Give your kitty an extra treat from me; my pair of spalpeens would have surely driven me stark staring mad travelling that much.

Yes, but and also:

The guy with the she tempted me argument is full of it. But also, teens have to be held responsible for good behavior also. At the school where my daughter teaches they are forever having to get hold of the girls for behavior I cannot describe on this blog. Some of them get paid for it in various ways, literally.

My wife did not “understand” me may/may not be true, but becoming a player is not the answer. But also, apparently there are a lot of women who need to get the message that men do need “taken care of” and it is her opportunity to do so. At least, the Chapmans (especially Carolyn) have preached that to women’s groups at SBC mega here in town. And Gary and Carolyn are not crazies at all.

The preacher said it and I fell for it and got hurt is sadly true, and said preacher needs to be jerked up by his collar so to speak and dealt with. But also, we do have compulsory education in this country, most people can read at least some, and there are bibles to be read by the populace. Also lots and lots of books with contrary messages in the book section of Walmart even. Perhaps people ought not have to protect themselves from some preachers this way, but they do and must.

It may seem harsh to require teens to control themselves, or women to “pay the light bill” or people to inform themselves, but how else are people to thrive except by assuming these responsibilities?

Hester wrote:

(She told him in no uncertain terms to stuff it.)

I like your mom already.

@ Ken (and others):

I don’t know Terry Virgo personally; I’ve only read his autobiography (“No well-worn path”). But it did seem eminently sensible in a lot of ways, and in particular the manner with which Virgo went about his first job as pastor of a congregation.

The history of the house church movement (as it is loosely known) in the UK is a mixed and interesting one. It is by no means all good: it’s by no means all bad either. But house churches did tend to build pyramids. I think one reason is that they set out with a desire to grow, including numerically. And not everyone knew any other way of building than by building pyramid-shaped organisations.

Background information: I was part of (though never a leader in) Covenant Ministries, often better known (albeit erroneously) as “Restoration”, led by the late Bryn Jones.

NJ wrote:

Well, I’m a little late responding here, but…
To Jed Paschall, pcapastor, StacieMao, Nick Bulbeck, and others,
Thank you so much for affirming what has taken a long time over several years to sink in with me. After over a decade in a PCA church where rigid gender roles were not just the norm but sometimes explicitly preached from the pulpit, where the majority of families homeschooled or did the classical academy thing because the “government” schools were no place for any Christian child (regardless of circumstances), where my husband was expected to work 14+ hours at two jobs if necessary with no end in sight so I would not have to work for an outside boss, I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to see others affirming things I’ve been thinking for a while now; that no, I’m NOT CRAZY. Something really was horribly off about what we were being taught as a nonnegotiable of the faith.
The culture of that church was alright if you happened to be comfortably middle class and hadn’t really suffered any from the Great Recession. Otherwise, one could feel quite out of place there. I am thankful that they never espoused the worst excesses of patriarchy, and the way they conducted worship was generally sound. I do think that they typically mean well, but on some issues they are importing cultural stuff into Scripture and tying burdens onto mens’ backs without lifting so much as a finger to help carry them.

That is a very balanced analysis. So thankful you are being restored to the sanity of Luther’s summary of the Christian life, “Love God, and do what you want.”

NJ wrote:

The culture of that church was alright if you happened to be comfortably middle class and hadn’t really suffered any from the Great Recession.

This is a really important point.

It is often said that church in the UK is middle-class; the situation stateside may be different. But I have increasingly observed, over the last year or so, that the UK church is neither able nor willing to interact usefully with the long-term unemployed. There are many demographic groups that the church needs to be willing and able to engage, of course, including the comfortably-middle-class, but the long term unemployed thing just happens to be my bag.

The tragedy of middle-class church is that it is composed of people whose basic needs are largely met before they come to church: life has, to a good approximation, simply worked for them.
 They have relatively stable family backgrounds
 They have found it relatively easy to get decent employment
 They’ve had no great difficulty finding a spouse
 They’ve had no great difficulty conceiving children
 Such difficulties as they have had are inconspicuous and/or easily concealed

But when they encounter someone for whom one or more of the above apple-points does not apply – they don’t know what to do with us. The unmarried over-30; the childless couple; the unemployed Oxbridge graduate… or the victim of domestic or other abuse. We need to do better for these (and other) people! Not just by finding a way to accommodate them in christian culture, but by acknowledging in the first instance that there is nothing special or sacrosanct about middle-class western culture.

Point 3 of 3

In other news, wee Eugenie Bouchard has taken the first set in her French Open semi-final against Maria Screamapova. Interestingly, though, Screamapova has won 24 of her last 25 matches that have gone to 3 sets and is a break up in the second. Obviously she just needs to drop the first set in order to get herself focused.

NJ wrote:

The culture of that church was alright if you happened to be comfortably middle class and hadn’t really suffered any from the Great Recession. Otherwise, one could feel quite out of place there.

I am thankful that they never espoused the worst excesses of patriarchy, and the way they conducted worship was generally sound. I do think that they typically mean well, but on some issues they are importing cultural stuff into Scripture and tying burdens onto mens’ backs without lifting so much as a finger to help carry them.

NJ, you’ve perfectly encapsulated my reasons for feeling out of place in the PCA.

Nick – you’re flying your flag again! I love my TWW flag. 🙂

Hester said:

“Funny, the pastor of the PCA church I attended for three years told my mom that my dad needed to get a different job, because his travel jobs were too long and too frequent and he wasn’t with his family enough. (She told him in no uncertain terms to stuff it.) He simultaneously praised John Piper and Don’t Waste Your Life all the time. So I’m not sure if that means we were supposed to get a lower-paying job and then give all the money away to missions, or what.”

Overall, there seemed to be contradictory messages coming from the leadership and their influences. The husband was supposed to be the sole provider financially, with the wife being a homemaker, whether or not they homeschooled. (And if they did homeschool he’d better be overseeing everything.) Yet, he was also supposed to be the primary discipler of their children, complete with daily family devotions if possible. I guess this could work if said husband happened to work at a traditional 9-5 job with a high salary. That unfortunately didn’t describe us.

Nick,

“The tragedy of middle-class church is that it is composed of people whose basic needs are largely met before they come to church: life has, to a good approximation, simply worked for them.
 They have relatively stable family backgrounds
 They have found it relatively easy to get decent employment
 They’ve had no great difficulty finding a spouse
 They’ve had no great difficulty conceiving children
 Such difficulties as they have had are inconspicuous and/or easily concealed”

One thing you didn’t mention here that was one of the biggest reasons we left our old church, was having a family that is medically healthy and normal. Although they weren’t on the FIC register, it was defacto family integrated. I could probably write a whole blog post on what it’s like to have a 5 or 6 year old son with classic autism, along with some of the challenging behaviors, in a church that not only prized keeping its children in the whole service from about age 3 onwards, but well-behaved and quiet the entire time. ‘Discouraging’ only partly covers it.

Haitch wrote:

Haitch: laughs … “what, someone from Monsanto” ?
Uncle: …silence… (stuck trying to process this proposed marriage to the devil)

From the Apostle Paul:

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world…

From the film Cloud Atlas:

Haskell Moore: There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well. This movement will never survive; if you join them, you and your entire family will be shunned. At best, you will exist a pariah to be spat at and beaten-at worst, to be lynched or crucified. And for what? For what? No matter what you do it will never amount to anything more than a single drop in a limitless ocean.
Adam Ewing: What is an ocean but a multitude of drops?

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

but by acknowledging in the first instance that there is nothing special or sacrosanct about middle-class western culture.

Over here the middle class is trying to disappear, or so the media tell us, at least partly due to the current economy. The statistics are kind of scary, actually. So, IMO the churches will do whatever they have to in order to keep the crowds, including changing procedures and doctrines and customs and whatever. I do not think that, push comes to shove, they will choose to have their “business” dwindle too much. Many a revelation seems to have arrived at what appears to be some tipping point of attendance and giving. Just saying.

Mandy wrote:

In other words, anybody who is truly struggling in life and needs the comfort of Jesus need not apply.

You’ve grasped the nail right by the horns, Mandy, because in other other words, what that means is: We don’t have Jesus. We only have theoriesdoctrines about him.

A powerless church (if indeed there is any such thing – there was never a powerless Jesus) will always end up filled with people who have no needs the secular world can’t meet. It can’t truly help anyone.

A bit off topic, but since the PCA, in its various manifestations, was a topic of conversation along the way in this thread, I thought I’d post this, which I ran across today. It is written by the newly nominated director of our denomination’s campus ministry arm. I LOVED this part:

“What team am I on? I am on the team that believes the PCA’s existence and survival is incidental to the work of the Kingdom.”

http://vintage73.com/2014/06/the-pca-telling-secrets-and-picking-teams/

@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, did you actually ever attend meetings at the Toronto Airport Vineyard during the height of the renewal movement there? I did for 5 days in 1995 I believe. I have a very long story about that which later sent me into studying in depth the whole deal. I still keep a big box of articles, books and notes for and against along with my own interpretations. I experienced so much. Some of what I experienced I later rejected as having been deceived into believing it was a true God experience. Some I believe was evil and some just human.
I believe the best literature ever written on the subject of revival is the book War on the Saints unabridged version. It was written long before our last revival movement came through. It definitely goes along with what you said.
In a nutshell, it describes how if we fulfill God’s way for the the Holy Spirit to work, He will. If we fulfill the Devil’s way for the evil to work, it will too. It doesn’t matter whether you are in church or not. Most of the people who flocked to the revival centers back then were genuinely the most passionate God seekers ever, not loonies. The devil loves coming into those meetings and attempting to deceive and he gets some success.