The Gospel™Coalition and Tullian Tchividjian: A Case Study in Smart or Stupid

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http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=53882&picture=meerkat-family-group&large=1

The Meerkat Family Group

Zach Hoag wrote a post recently that might serve as a perspective to one of the reasons for the firing" of Tullian Tchividjian from The Gospel Coalition blog. Keep this true scenario in mind as you read this post.

The senior pastor pulled me aside and, in his infamous dramatic baritone, directed me on how to lead the small group.

“I need you to emphasize reprobation,” he said. “I believe it’s essential to understanding the gospel. And these people are way too soft when it comes to the absolute sovereignty of God. I’m a supralapsarian, you know.”

The rigid small group structure of this Reformed Baptist church was such that each group had one leader and at least one assistant leader. Every fall, in a ritual mildly resembling the papal conclave, the elders would meet privately to assign every leader, assistant, and small group member in every group, all according to criteria about leadership qualifications and the state of people’s souls. Since there were a good number of folks in the church who believed in Jesus but were deemed “unconverted” by the elders (because the evidence of regeneration – Calvinism’s “irresistible grace” – was not convincing enough for them), many of the groups were set up as experiments in sovereign election.

Basically: Let’s put Suzy Q in Joe Johnson’s  small group because Joe will bring strong teaching about the wrath of God, and Lord knows the Holy Spirit needs to show Suzy the depths of her sin before she can truly come to faith. (Suzy, in this case, being the lifelong Christian who had a season of “backsliding” and was therefore deemed never-saved-in-the-first-place.)

Analyzing the response of The Gospel™ Coalition to Tullian Tchividjian (hereafter known as TT): Smart or Stupid?

I learned one of the most important lessons of my life in the first week of my MBA program. The professor said that hot shot business graduates like to invade a corporation and tell them what they are doing wrong. Instead, he said, we should look at the corporation and figure out what they are doing right. If the company has existed for awhile, is making money and business majors want to work for them, then they must be doing some things right. So taking that approach, let's look at TGC's "firing" of TT.

1. Why this move might have been stupid and poorly handled.

Let's assume TGC is telling their version of the truth. Keller and Carson released a statement in which they claimed that they had already expressed concern to TT about his doctrine. 

Earlier in the year our executive director spent two days with Tullian in Florida. Coming out of that meeting, it was decided that Tullian would move his blog.

TT said that he had already decided to move his blog in August 2014 and had informed TGC of his intentions. TGC claimed that they had sent a TGC director, Ben Peays, to address theological concerns. TT disagreed and said he had asked  Peays to come and help him launch a new website and that TT had paid for the visit. He claimed that The Gospel Coalition lied in their statement.

"I told Ben Peays this last night. I called him and I told him, 'That statement's misleading and you know it,'" said Tchividjian, "… The way the statement read, it was as if he came down to Fort Lauderdale to talk with me on behalf of the coalition regarding the theological issue that they were having with me. That is categorically false."

Tchividjian explained that Peays flew down to Florida as a consultant for the pastor's new ministry, Liberate, which also picked up the bill for his flight. He added that he (Tullian) initiated a conversation about moving his blog content off the coalition's website and that "it was never ever insinuated that that's what The Gospel Coalition wanted."

"To cover themselves so they would not look like bullies, they took a trip that Ben took two months ago, turned that trip and made it look like The Gospel Coalition sent him down to cover these concerns — and that's just a flat-out lie. That's a lie," said Tchividjian.

Last week, Keller and Carson, speaking for TGC, claimed they had a doctrinal disagreement with TT which was so serious that it warranted the immediate removal of TT's blog from the TGC site. They also implied that TT lacked wisdom. Huh? What was that about the splinter in your neighbor's eye?

The differences were doctrinal and probably even more matters of pastoral practice and wisdom. 

Assuming that this was merely a serious doctrinal split, the move by TGC was, to use their term, seriously lacking in "wisdom." 

  • TT had agreed to remove his blog in August. They merely had to hold their collective gospel™ breaths for a couple of months and he would have faded into the sunset.
  • The explanation that they had created a new website and this was a "logical" time to remove his blog is silly. Take a look at the many contributors to the TGC site. It is quite easy to create, and then, delete a new page. We know, we do it .

I respect the intelligence of some contributors to TGC too much to think they are this stupid so let's look for an alternative solution.

Why getting rid of TT's blog was of the utmost urgency and, therefore, a smart move for TGC.

It is obvious to most people that TGC sent out the big guns to defend this "theological" hardball response. It is ridiculous to assume this was simply a theological spat. Something else was going on in the background that made this a matter of urgency. Recently, TT added an important piece of information that might give some insight into the response.

"Give me a break. These people, they're family. Of course he knew," Tchividjian told The Christian Post. "C. J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn't made aware of, so for anyone to say, 'Well he didn't know,' that's totally naive."

Tchividjian added that he was "pretty disturbed" when Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor published astatement on TGC website in May 2013 which defended Mahaney, saying that it looked "like the good-old boys club covering their own."

"I thought it was premature. I thought it was insensitive. I communicated with the guys who wrote this statement that I was disappointed, that I thought it was unwise and premature and that they needed to clarify that their statement was not a statement from The Gospel Coalition, per se, but was their own personal statement," Tchividjian explained.

"There were some of us on the coalition, or who were associated with it, who didn't want to be associated with their defense of C. J.," he continued. "I've just been sort of disgusted by the whole thing."

Speaking about his departure from The Gospel Coalition, Tchividjian said his departure came with little warning, though he explained that he made the decision eight or nine months ago to leave in August.

Now this has play. Look at the time frame. TT said he made a decision to leave TGC about 9 months ago. The infamous statement by DeYoung, Carson, and Taylor defending Mahaney was published on TGC's website about one year ago. Oh yeah, look who signed onto that statement along with Tim Keller…Don Carson. Is it just a coincidence that he played a role in addressing the reasons for TT's removal from TGC? TT appears to have criticized the wrong people within TGC.

Adding more fuel to the fire, TT's brother, Boz Tchvidjian, began speaking out about the SGM scandal over a year ago. I decided to check out TGC's website to see if they have published anything by Boz Tchividjian who is getting wide spread coverage in the national media for his work in exposing the problems of child sex abuse in today's evangelical churches. I would think that they would be interested in his expertise. So, I entered Boz Tchividjian's name into the search engine at TGC and this is what I got as of 11:30 AM today. Fascinating…

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Boz Tchividjian is rapidly becoming the go to expert for dealing with child sex abuse in today's evangelical churches. He has drawn the ire of certain religious, celebrity leaders because he firmly believes that the evangelical church has a problem.

First, when I made that statement, it was in response to a specific question. The question was, "Why doesn't it seem like the Protestant world has learned from two decades of Catholic abuse scandal?" And my response was that in many ways I think the Protestant world is worse in responding to sexual abuse within our own churches.

And it is our experience that the abuse of children often thrives where there is minimal accountability and limited transparency. Also, in the Protestant Evangelical world we put a great degree of authority on Scripture and, therefore, those who abuse often distort Scripture in order to gain access, control, and silence over victims and their families.

TT pushed back hard on the same issue of response to child sex abuse in the church, suggesting an appropriate response by a Christian group  which has had more than their share of child abuse reports link.

"If I was the head of an organization where this kind of behavior had been taking place for years, even though if I didn't actually perform this kind of behavior, even if I didn't even know about the behavior, the only thing I would say is 'I'm sick. I'm sorry. I will do whatever I need to do to help the victims and their families,'" Tchividjian added. "… If The Gospel Coalition would have said that, instead of Don Carson and Kevin DeYoung and Just Taylor, basically writing in the middle of the trial, a defense of C. J. That's a major blemish."

So, what in the world happened? Sometime around 5/18, both Joshua Harris and CJ Mahaney's names dropped off the TGC Council. When this was brought up, Joe Carter, executive editor of TGC claimed that had not been members of the council for a long time. Confronted with the evidence that their names had been listed the day before, Carter then said they had resigned. The Keller/Carson statement implied that they had gone of their own free will unlike Tchividjian.

Both Joshua Harris and C. J. Mahaney were Council members who resigned their position, but though they came at the same time, it would be mistaken to think the reasons and processes for these decisions were the same. C. J. had been considering stepping out for a good while—both a year ago and a month ago he offered to do so for a variety of reasons, including a major move and change in his role, the responsibilities of a new church plant, and other issues. Joshua has spoken publicly about his reasons for resigning. In light of the ongoing civil suit against his church he felt it best for TGC if he stepped down.

Carter began a full court press on Twitter, vigorously defending CJ Mahaney. Carter, author of the book How to Argue Like Jesus, demonstrated to members of the Twitterverse how to apply the gospel principles elucidated in his book. He continued that defense even today at Scot McKnight's blog, Jesus Creed. Here is another exchange at a different blog.

A couple of days after that exchange, we learned about Tullian's left boot of fellowship from TGC. Both Keller and Carson made their statement and quickly departed the country for Calvin's Geneva where they could be drinking beer and bemoaning the fact that beheadings are frowned upon in the US.

Note: The narrative seems to be that Mahaney and Harris were good guys who simply resigned. TT was such a bad guy that the Council told his to get lost, pronto. Something seems a bit amiss in the scenario as described by Keller and Carson.

 Finally the Council at its meeting last week decided that Tullian should move his blog immediately, and we communicated this conclusion to Tullian. 

Carson and Keller are currently in Geneva, Switzerland and unavailable for comment.

So, I am left with a conundrum. Was it smart or was it stupid? I tend to believe the former. I think this had everything to do with the SGM scandal and TGC's consistent support of CJ Mahaney. For example, on the very day that abuse victims were testifying in the Nate Morales trial (for which he was convicted) TGC showed disregard for the feeling of those victims by publishing a puff piece on Carolyn Mahaney's new book True Beauty.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that Jen Wilkin is now listed as an editorial contributor for TGC here. You can read my analysis of the TT versus Jen Wilkin dustup here. I wrote this just before TT was removed from TGC so the post is worth a second look.

Either TGC is dull-witted or they are asking those of us looking in from the outside to overlook what appears to be a unbelievable, coincidental connection to SGM and CJ Mahaney. Apparently, others agree. Today at Slacktivist in a piece titled I have never seen 'sanctification' used as a euphemism for that before,  Fred Clark says:

But, no, no, no, The Gospel Coalition’s Tim Keller and Don Carson explain. It had nothing to do with Tchividjian’s appropriate disgust over the good-old boys covering up for criminal child abuse. It was actually a high-minded, but of course eminently civil, disagreement over lofty matters of doctrine

…Nothing to do with defending the defenders of child abusers. Nothing to do with that at all.

By booting out Tchividjian, it appears that TGC has sadly demonstrated what some have long suspected. They are not a coalition of those who love the gospel but a rigid faction of those who believe in a a certain gospel which is tied to a certain view on sanctification which is further linked to a certain view of the SGM debacle.

What is the debate about?

Any good excuse to cover up true motives must have its basis in fact. There is no question that there is an ongoing debate about the law, grace and sanctification. Here are some links to those who do a better job at explaining this than I do.

Wade Burleson wrote a post on the matter. Tullian Tchividjian, the GOSPEL Standard, the Sanctification Controversy and What It All Means. In it, he boils down the issue to these question.

1). Is God 'angry' with the Christian when he or she sins?
(2). Does the pleasure of God abide upon His people because of their spiritual performance?
(3). Does God 'see' sin in His people in terms of His judicial wrath and 'punishment'?
(4). When does the believer enter into 'union with Christ' from God's perspective?
(5). What is the evangelical motivation for doing good works?

Wade goes on to go into the history of this debate and concludes with the following.

I have never met Tullian Tchividjian. One of these days I hope to be able to fellowship with him. I know some of the Gospel Coalition men by reputation and am friends on Facebook with a few of them. I do hope that they understand by kicking Tullian out of their fellowship they have gone down the same path some Law-oriented evangelicals went in the 1700's when they booted from fellowship some amazing 'grace' men (see above). The 'downgrade' of the gospel began occurring about that very same time in those Law-oriented churches in England and Europe.

For a view from the hardcore supporters of Neo-Puritanism, look no further than a post at Reformation 21 Where the Sanctification Controversy Lies by Rick Phillips.

I hope these comments show where the controversy lies.  The matter is not about legalists claiming that the law provides the power to obey God's commands.  Neither is this a fight between Tullian's defense of the radical grace of the gospel versus those who are afraid of grace.  Quite to the contrary, it is precisely the grace of God that is being denigrated, since it is by God's amazing grace that Christians are not only justified through faith alone but are born again and given the power of Christ to lead new lives (Eph. 1:18-20).  Moreover, this is not a small number of angry men who are "attacking" Tullian.  Rather, a large body of Reformed scholars and leaders, including The Gospel Coalition but extending far beyond it, are gravely concerned that Christians are being told that they cannot pursue holiness and that their pastors should not tell them to do so.

At Hip and Thigh, Fred Butler adds to the debate in a post Resources on the Neo "Antinomianism."  Butler provides some resources that would buttress the points of view expressed by TGC.

Peter Toon’s The Emergence of Hyper-Calvinism in English Non-Comformity 1689-1765. His third chapter goes into detail regarding antinomianism.

Jerry Wragg’s Shepherd’s Conference 2014 message, The New Antinomianism. Goes into more detail regarding TT and pastoral concerns as this teaching impacts the church.

Here is a chart outlining the differences between Neo-Calvinism and Neo-Puritanism.

Here is a piece critiquing Neo-Calvinism

I think these New Calvinists should not be called “Neo-Calvinists,” but rather “Neo-Puriatans.”

Back in 2009, in response to Time Magazine misusing the term Neo-Calvinism, I wrote a series of posts at my blog Vanguard Church on the nuanced differences between Neo-Puritanism and Neo-Calvinism

Peter Enns posted his point of view at his blog, Rethinking Biblical Christianity. In his post, Tullian Tchivdjian, the Gospel Coalition and a Rather Obvious Theological Problem he states: 

“Theology is not to blame here.” Yes it is Tullian. Yes it most definitely is. On two related levels.

First, the resurgence of Reformed theology in American evangelicalism and fundamentalism–commonly referred to as the Neo-Reformed movement–is a belligerent movement. This is why it exists–to correct others, not to turn the spotlight inward. There are exceptions within, of course, and I am by no means suggesting everyone who sees him or herself as part of this movement exhibits this tendency. But the “system” is set up to fight. It’s what they do.

So don’t be shocked, Tullian, if it happens to you. Yesterday’s heroes can quickly become tomorrow’s vanquished foes. When “contending for the gospel” is your center of gravity, there’s always a foe. There has to be.

Second, theology proper is to blame here–”theology” as in how we understand God.

Christians who can’t seem to walk away from a fight–who seem uncomfortable in a peace vacuum, who feel the gospel is at stake with nearly every perceived errant thought or difference of opinion, and who feel they need to group together and found organizations to protect the truth against all ungodly attacks–are showing us what their God is like.

If you are a fighter, chances are the God you imagine is:

fundamentally hacked off, retributive, touchy, demanding of theological precision, uncompromising, takes-no-prisoners-and-gives-no-quarter, whose wrath needs to be appeased so watch your step.

…Tullian, whatever is going on at TGC, you can bet your bottom dollar it has everything to do with theology. It is, in fact, a right, proper, and wholly consistent expression of that theology. I’m a bit surprised you don’t see that, but maybe your departure is a blessing.

Dee's point of view on the matter. 

Since the day I was confronted with the reality that the God of the universe loved me, I have been overwhelmed by His grace. Each day I wake up with the determination that I want to serve Him to the best of my ability. Let me state this loud and clear:

I do not want to sin. I really, really do not want to sin but the fact is, I do.

And I do not ever rejoice in the matter. I am being transparent here. I have a tendency to berate myself for my shortcomings. There are many times I hold onto my failure instead of turning them over to a Savior who forgives me. I am reminded of a poor woman who admitted, on Neo-Puritan blog, that she realizes each and every day what a lowly worm she is. I cried for her and am sad that no one jumped into remind her that she is a dearly loved child of Christ.

If truth be told, I have never met a Christian who was not aware of their sin. In fact, the vast majority of Christians that I know beat themselves up on a daily basis and have a hard time letting it go into the arms of an infinitely forgiving Savior.

I read my Bible. I know what God has to say about each and every sin-both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Trust me, I get it. And that is why I need sermons on grace and more grace.

I am about to say something that will irritate a number of Neo- Puritans. Remember, this is the crowd that Jen Wilkin runs with. She has told us that we know have the freedom to obey, so we should.

Well, guess what? I would love to put the folks on both sides of this argument up against one another in a room, give them truth serum, and get them to honestly confess their sins. I would guess that the "freedom to obey by being beat over the head with the law" folks would be found just as wanting in the sin department as the ones, like me, on the grace side.

In fact, those in the "freedom to obey" department appear to spend much of their time pointing the fingers at the world because they do not want the fingers to be pointing at them. A pastor I know calls this "cooking the books." We make ourselves look better by focusing on the things with which we do not struggle. 

We hear lots and lots of discussion from this group on irrestible grace but very little on the Holy Spirit who comforts, convicts and strengthens us.  That Spirit is given to each of us who believe and is more than capable of assisting us as we walk this planet. TT quoted J. Gresham Machen link.

J. Gresham Machen counterintutively noted, “A low view of law always produces legalism; a high view of law makes a person a seeker after grace.” The reason this seems so counterintuitive is because most people think those who talk a lot about grace have a low view of God’s law (hence, the regular charge of antinomianism). Others think those with a high view of the law are the legalists. But Machen makes the compelling point that it’s a low view of the law that produces legalism, since a low view of the law causes us to conclude we can do it—the bar is low enough for us to jump over. A low view of the law makes us think the standards are attainable, the goals reachable, the demands doable. This means, contrary to what some Christians would have you believe, the biggest problem facing the church today is not “cheap grace” but “cheap law”—the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

To quote myself:

Believing in God's freeing and glorious grace does not lead us into sin. It will lead us, day in and day out, to pick ourselves up, repent, not dwell in our failures and to travel on through this life, free to love and care for one another.

I think this quote from Boz Tchividjian is a perfect note to end on. It goes out to those who have been abused and left to pick up the pieces for themselves while a self absorbed church overlooks the lost, the let down and the looking.

Nothing is safe when Aslan is on the move. But rest assured, that is good news. As stated best by Mr. Beaver in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe when describing Aslan: “Safe?” said Mr. Beaver. “Who said anything about safe? ‘Course He isn’t safe, but He’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.” A sleeping church will never be safe from the roaming Aslan. He loves it too much to allow it to continue in slumber as so many freeze inside its walls.

Yes, there are days I grieve. But that grief is only overshadowed by the hope I still have in Jesus – the King who turns everything upside down, and who is very good.

TWW thanks the Tchvidjian brothers for their tirelesss work in exposing the pain of child sexual abuse and cover-up in todays evangelical churches. 

Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 40:28-41:26 James 4:1-17 Psalm 118:19-29 Proverbs 28:3-5

Comments

The Gospel™Coalition and Tullian Tchividjian: A Case Study in Smart or Stupid — 215 Comments

  1. Tullian, thank goodness you’ve spoken out and have gotten out. We were hoping you would, but when we saw nothing nine months ago, we worried that you too had sold out to the “See No Evil. Hear No Evil. Speak No Evil” protectors of those who allegedly cover up for child molestors for 25 years.

    We admire and respect you, Tullian and Boz!

    Now it’s time for Tim Keller and Don Carson to get out.

  2. fwiw, I think the Narnia stories often give a better picture of love, face, freedom from wrongdoing – and forgiveness – than do most churches and most of us xtians.

    Stories are powerful that way. As for myself, I’ll take Aslan over the angry, wrathful god worshipped by many people *any* day. Also over the Keeper of the Divine Gated Community that is, all too often, one of our (American) views of god, thinly cloaked in church jargon.

  3. Marie2 wrote:

    Sorry Gus

    I am way above this ridiculous striving for sorry accomplishments. I am also far too humble to claim “first” status, even if I regularly read a post first. As a humble person, I have no need to display my prowess at reading, be it blogs or HUGE STACKS of books. 😉

  4. One has to wonder if Michael Spencer’s “prophecy” on the coming evangelical collapse is unfolding. One can only hope.

  5. From what I’ve read, watched and heard, there doesn’t appear to be much good news in The Good News CoalitionTM.

  6. gus wrote:

    I am also far too humble to claim “first” status, even if I regularly read a post first

    You need to write a book. It did wonders for CJ! 🙂

  7. dee wrote:

    gus wrote:
    I am also far too humble to claim “first” status, even if I regularly read a post first
    You need to write a book. It did wonders for CJ!

    Yes, Gus, obviously I have a “Grosse Tête” with my being first obsession.

    Ty so much for your loving corrections to keep me out of you know where.

    When I get a chance, I will visit this location to do some serious repenting.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_T%C3%AAte,_Louisiana

  8. @ Marie2:
    Grosse Tête is a village in Iberville Parish, Louisiana, United States. The population was 670 at the 2000 census. Its name is French for “Big Head.” Its local pronunciation is “gross tate.”

  9. The SGM stuff set aside I thought TT starting to sound too Lutheran in his recent blog posts. I am really gun shy around anything “Reformed” but TT might be one of the few contemporaries I respect. That is saying a lot trust me.

  10. numo wrote:

    fwiw, I think the Narnia stories often give a better picture of love, face, freedom from wrongdoing – and forgiveness – than do most churches and most of us xtians.
    Stories are powerful that way. As for myself, I’ll take Aslan over the angry, wrathful god worshipped by many people *any* day. Also over the Keeper of the Divine Gated Community that is, all too often, one of our (American) views of god, thinly cloaked in church jargon.

    I’m with you one this. During my childhood, the story of Aslan is part of what kept my faith from totally being annihilated. 🙂

  11. Thank you, Dee. I had to skim through some of the theological stuff, because I am one of those “peasants in the pews” who have no interest whatsoever in the Neo Cals endless theological arguments. But your thoughts at the end and the quote from Boz are beautiful and encouraging.

  12. Hmm….while reading about this controversy….this came to mind:
    “Mankind was not made to serve laws. Laws were made to serve mankind. When we begin to sacrifice people on the altar of the Law, we move from mercy and grace to tyranny and abuse.”

    I had to look up the definition of “Antinomian”…and guess what? Based on the information I found, I guess I am one. 😉

    The thing about the pesky Mosaic Law – if you follow part of it, you are obligated to follow all of it. (see Galatians, esp, 3 & 5)

    I’ve read the Mosaic Law. All of it. Ugh! The so-called 10 commandments are just the beginning of it. Check out Numbers 5, just for an example. I think this is part of that ‘stumbling stone’ that Jesus and later Paul talked about. Grace and Law do not mix, in my opinion (and experience). I believe we have to choose to rely on one or the other…..Daily, I return to Grace…..

  13. Based on that article you referenced it does seem that this is neo-puritanism. So I have been trying to learn something about puritanism for a reference point, and now I have a headache. Since I never have headaches I can’t be sure that it is actually a headache, but something has gone awry from the ears up. Got to put this off until tomorrow.

  14. Worth reading, mentions wartburg watch
    Unpacking the Web of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Scandal
    MAY 27, 2014 BY DALE FINCHER

  15. The thing that bothers me about the whole “sanctification” debate is that no one with a decent education in theology could ever take the antinomian charge seriously. It is basically libel. The whole thing seems to be pretty clearly a smoke screen to distract from another very important matter. I wonder what that could be?

  16. Amy Smith wrote:

    double whammy of criticism today of us bloggy abuse advocates @wartwatch @DefendTheSheep @SNAPNetwork by the good ole boys http://t.co/ASkb66gzC3 http://t.co/Jbb3myrlRT

    Thank you for all of your hard work, Amy!!

    This survivor definitely appreciates all of this effort, and weathering criticism of this kind…Lawsuit thrown out on legal technicality….Ugh….

    Thank you for bringing all of this to our attention,
    Marie2

  17. Dee & Deb,

    This resource might be helpful in gaining some insight into the law & sanctification debates that have gone on in Reformed circles over the last few decades. It is one of Westminster Seminary California’s regular podcasts. By in large their views are more amenable to TT than to some of his detractors, but it’s real value is in framing the background of the debates and in pointing the way to a path forward to those of us who take the Reformed confessions seriously.

    http://wscal.edu/resource-center/resource/the-law-and-sanctification

    With that said, I definitely agree that TGC’s position that TT’s dismissal had nothing to do with his criticism of Mahaney and SGM is dubious at best.

  18. I think that to be first should require a legitimate comment on the subject matter of the blogger’s post, indicating that it has been read it its entirety. Not fair to open, leap to the comment section and claim first. This should be adopted as law by edict of the Deebs!

  19. From the body of the main article:

    “Let’s assume TGC is telling their version of the truth…”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Truth is singular. Its ‘versions’ are mistruths.
    From: An Orison of Sonmi-451

    Kudos must again go out to TWW for well written push-back to TGC and all its variants, whose only real concern is for unanimity in the dictatorial sense, not protection for the weak and vulnerable.

  20. This is good for thought. I always thought antinomian was an insult but now I am uncertain. Was the issue over law versus grace or a ruse? Looking at the chart link, I like Calvinist side better than the Puritan side. It seems broader and more balanced than the Puritan side of the coin, and reveals more of the character of God. He is Sovereign over all of creation and not just a part.

  21. Does it not seem bizarre that the very crew calling TT antinomian are the same men DEFENDING THE LAWBREAKERS? Is it just me? How can they accuse Tullian of advocating a no-law necessary/hence anything goes Christian life when they protect and defend “Christian ” pastor/leader/Demi-gods who AT THE VERY LEAST subverted laws to keep criminal behavior out of public view/the reach of SECULAR law??! Oh wait, maybe they only have to uphold the laws that keep the little people in line. Now, to claim it is really onlu about a doctrinal disagreement is a sick shell game meant to distract the unwashed while the dust settles. Ole Abe said,”you can fool some of the people some of the time…” I think time is running out. And on the final day, God will not be mocked.

  22. “Carson and Keller are currently in Geneva, Switzerland and unavailable for comment.”

    Of all the places to be right now…

  23. Lisa wrote:

    Does it not seem bizarre that the very crew calling TT antinomian are the same men DEFENDING THE LAWBREAKERS? Is it just me? How can they accuse Tullian of advocating a no-law necessary/hence anything goes Christian life when they protect and defend “Christian ” pastor/leader/Demi-gods who AT THE VERY LEAST subverted laws to keep criminal behavior out of public view/the reach of SECULAR law??! Oh wait, maybe they only have to uphold the laws that keep the little people in line. Now, to claim it is really onlu about a doctrinal disagreement is a sick shell game meant to distract the unwashed while the dust settles. Ole Abe said,”you can fool some of the people some of the time…” I think time is running out. And on the final day, God will not be mocked.

    Lisa, wow, yes.

  24. In her article, Dee wrote: “…. letting it go into the arms of an infinitely forgiving Savior.” !!!! An infinitely forgiving Savior!!!

    This is truly exactly what I needed to hear this week. Thank you Dee for reading your Bible, and being real and reminding us what it truly is to belong to Christ.

  25. Seems as though the boys in Geneva forgot their voltage converters. Hence, they are “unable to comment. @ JP:

  26. JP wrote:

    “Carson and Keller are currently in Geneva, Switzerland and unavailable for comment.”

    Of all the places to be right now…

    Pilgrimage to claim the Mantle of The Calvin?

  27. How convenient….they’ll be in Geneva on a pilgrimage to Calvin’s adopted city (he was French after all).

    Besides, everyone knows that the internet doesn’t reach Switzerland.

  28. dee – I appreciate the work and research that went into this post. I especially like this:

    “Well, guess what? I would love to put the folks on both sides of this argument up against one another in a room, give them truth serum, and get them to honestly confess their sins. I would guess that the ‘freedom to obey by being beat over the head with the law’ folks would be found just as wanting in the sin department as the ones, like me, on the grace side.”

    What a welcome dose of realism!

  29. “Power does not corrupt. Fear corrupts… perhaps the fear of a loss of power.”
    -John Steinbeck

    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive,”
    -Sir Walter Scott

  30. I have many things to say on all of this but for now I will begin with this.

    TT is not an antinomian. Does TT believe that the law is now null and void because Christ came? Go and listen to a TT sermon. You will hear about God’s law. No scratch that. You will hear God’s law. Not just about it but the full force of it. Antinomians attempt to only preach gospel without giving the hearer the law of God. TT does not do this. TT talks about how once being gripped by grace your life starts to show fruit as you love God and neighbor. Again, antinomians will not talk about fruit bearing of any kind because they don’t believe the law has any impact on the believer in ANY sense. Now, you may have issues as a Presbyterian how he pastorally deals with sanctification but he isn’t an Antinomian.

    These gospel-y coalition guys are exactly what this blog post calls them: Neo Puritans. They would hate it if someone felt too secure in the grace and knowledge of Christ. No scratch that. They feel awfully secure. They just don’t want their parishioners to feel that way. They absolutely for one second can’t give Christ away. They must ALWAYS speak the gospel in such a way that it seems just out of reach for some people. I am glad we are starting to distinguish between Calvinist and Puritan. But then again who is a Puritan? Just like TGC, the Puritans were purging people left and right for not being (well you fill in the blank) heck, isn’t Rhode Island a state because the Puritans told a bunch of Baptist to get lost? I am not sure about that… Anyway, great article. I want to think on this a while longer.

  31. I would like to thank TGC leaders for my desire to go back to church, I found a very nice Anglican Church, I made sure the lead priest was a women, committed to child safety codified in their bylaws, open communion to all denominations etc. It was their fine demonstration of how not to behave that lead me back to church. Their behavior and public demonstration really pushed me back to the faith and I would like to thank them. This somewhat small parrish is very beautiful, peaceful and locally connected. There is a very connected community. It is not perfect, and they dont claim to be (my biggest attraction). Now this church would set off red lights at TGC which ranks high on my list of a spiritual community.

    Now I will admit I did get involved with a spiritual retreat which was a beautiful group of people in a very lovely community but they are a bit different and they have issues with the Trinity, though they would encourage me to hold on to that belief. They were / are strange that way, they talk to you and tell you to hold onto your faith and they always said dont believe us. They also have full disclosure on financial issues as does the other faith community.

    It was this last debacle that drove me this route, I need a faith community, which is a vile sin in TGC group, you know needing. They hate people who need outside of their apologetic. You know, as Michael at PP understands, I gave all I had / have for the faith. TGC would resign me to hell, rightfully so. But I cant function in that constant fear, waiting for the last time God will kill me and cast me into hell, only to resurrect me at some other time in a full immortal body so I can go to hell again. And that was good news.

    Michael at PP saved my soul spiritual sounding board gave me a framework as did Wartburg watch. I am intimately aware of sexual abuse and the shame, the horror and the terror that can come with it. But my contact with such events were not in the name of God, I cant imagine the mind twisting frustration that would cause. Keep up the good work. As to the TGC thank you for helping me come back to a spiritual community, I do appreciate it. If you would like to discuss the ToE, age of the Earth and other aspects of your interpretation of scripture I would love to dialog with you. Lets start with this, do you go to the doctor? Thanks again.

  32. Mark wrote:

    I always thought antinomian was an insult but now I am uncertain.

    It just goes to show the way in which language evolves, doesn’t it? “Friend of sinners!” was an insult, after all.

    I highly recommend the blog article by Wade to which Dee referred. Two quotes therefrom, if I may:

    Grace oriented people who love the gospel understand that grace is only for sinners.

    and

    I don’t believe you are really preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ until someone calls you an antinomian.

    Amen, Wade!

  33. An Attorney wrote:

    I think that to be first should require a legitimate comment on the subject matter of the blogger’s post

    I hear you, dear friend. Tell that to our less discerning friends, like Eagle and Marie. They could certainly benefit from your fatherly concern and gospelly advice. 😉

  34. @ Robin:

    …isn’t Rhode Island a state because the Puritans told a bunch of Baptist to get lost?

    Not just Baptists, pretty much anyone who annoyed them, i.e. Anne Hutchinson.

  35. @ Lisa:
    These guys would claim that Mahaney did not break any laws and until it is proven that he did so, they will continue to assume his innocence. The way I look at it Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are still viewed as innocent in the eyes of the law as well.

  36. @ GC:
    This stuff can be rather daunting. I forced myself to learn what it was about because I tired of the “trump” verses being thrown at me when I discussed grace. What I discovered is that the Calvinistas have no corner on the truth and certainly no corner on the sanctity of their behavior. Their theology does not make one bit of difference when it comes to behavior and I think all of us have seen that demonstrated.

    My bottom line: You have been given the Holy Spirit God loves you dearly, you will sin even when you do not want to sin, and you should each day focus on the grace given to you on the Cross, be free and go out and love those you meet in the name of Jesus.

  37. Nancy wrote:

    it does seem that this is neo-puritanism.

    I grew up in Salem, Massachusetss. The Puritans were part of my history lessons as I grew up.

    I have written on this subject time and time again. The Puritans were no better or worse than any other Christian group in history. They talked big when it came to theology but they lived sinful lives, full of judgements, land grabs and witch trials. Those witch trials-some of the puritans used it as a ruse to grab the land of accused witches. Sure they repented but did they give the land back?

    They threw people out of their group for not toeing their line. I think of Roger Williams, the forefather of the Baptists. Imagine that! The Baptists who drool over the Puritans got their start due to the rigidity of the Puritans.

    They had guys trolling the aisles in church. if you had the audacity, after busting your tush tilling the hard soil of the North Shore, to fall asleep during one of their exhausting 2 hour sermons on Sunday, you would be bopped upside the head with a heavy stick with a solid ball on the end of it.

    These guys think the Puritans had it together. They didn’t. And yes, these guys resemble the Puritans.

  38. dee wrote:

    @ Lisa:
    These guys would claim that Mahaney did not break any laws and until it is proven that he did so, they will continue to assume his innocence. The way I look at it Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are still viewed as innocent in the eyes of the law as well.

    Does blackmail qualify?

  39. doubtful wrote:

    everyone knows that the internet doesn’t reach Switzerland.

    This is the latest “excuse” of TGC crowd. Challies used it a week ago when he was in Australia. I dustup occurred on his blog when it was found he had quoted extensively from Wikipedia (yep, that’s right-the basis of his critique of Theresa of Avila.) A professor who questioned his post was called a contrarian troll by the guy Challies had moderating.

    Challies wrote that he did not have access to the Internet and would “respond” when he returned. However, he did seem to find the Internet when he did his tweets.

    Keller and Carson simply do not care to respond and they should tell the truth instead of hiding behind the “I’m in a foreign country” excuse.

  40. You are a disgrace to Grace.

    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.

    This blog is straight from the pit.

    I smelled sulfur when I logged on.

  41. Nancy wrote:

    it does seem that this is neo-puritanism

    Part 1: On topic

    Oh, goodness. I have finished all I am going to read about puritanism for now, and I feel kind of dirty for even reading some of it. What we do indeed have here in the evangelical gospelly calvinistic cesspool is for sure neo-puritanism, right out of some playbook. The only good thing I came away with was that the puritans in the US did make some forward steps in educating the masses (of males) toward literacy. Not so with females, of course. The later arriving Moravians take some credit for that.

    So these guys are basically after power. I guess we knew that. And some of their theological ideas have long since split the presbyterians against each other and the baptists against each other, all into competing camps. I guess we knew that too. Maybe that’s why they needed to coalesce, no one group has so far been able to completely dominate their denomination of origin sufficiently to have absolute power. It looks like SGM came to the game late, so to speak.

    Now the power wars go on. And the theological disputes go on. But they have not been able to control secular society and gain political power and bend the masses to their will like they seem to want. Then TT rocked the boat, it looks like, in more ways than one. Good for him, I guess, but maybe he did not actually intend to get thrown out of the boat this way. In the end he gets lots of PR and lots of attention to various ideas (grace) and causes (sex abuse scandals) and that is all to the good. Perhaps what they meant to him for evil will turn out to be good to him in the long run.

  42. @ Nancy:

    Part 2: Just my observation

    In my apparent role as a protestant who says good things about catholicism, when the catholic schools came along in the US they did far better that those before them in lots of ways. And let me say also, the catholic church has been far more tolerant of minor differences and far quicker to forgive than have the puritans among us. If the original puritans intended to stamp out all residuals of catholicism in the church of england (and everywhere) they went too far. Just like the neo-puritans are going to far in lots of ways. Just saying.

  43. dee wrote:

    These guys would claim that Mahaney did not break any laws and until it is proven that he did so, they will continue to assume his innocence. The way I look at it Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are still viewed as innocent in the eyes of the law as well.

    It would be nice if guys like Joe Carter were a little more consistent in their “innocent until proven guilty” mantra. For instance, why isn’t Joe all over his buddy Owen Strachan? Strachan made baseless accusations against Facebook and Rachel Held Evans – accusing them of blocking his posts and reporting them as unsafe. Why isn’t Carter up in his grill? This selective attack is just another reason to not trust the TGC establishment.

  44. Though I agree with Enns that TT’s theology *is* a major part of the problem, I am relieved to see him speaking out regarding the abuse cases in SGM.

    As to whether it was stupid or smart on the part of TGC to remove him, I guess it might depend on who you are talking to. Either way, TGC is continuing to show its’ true colors: siding with abusers and keepin’ the good, ol’ boy club going.

  45. @ dee:

    If you had the audacity, after busting your tush tilling the hard soil of the North Shore, to fall asleep during one of their exhausting 2 hour sermons on Sunday, you would be bopped upside the head with a heavy stick with a solid ball on the end of it.

    Aww, come on, Dee. They had a feather on the other end for the ladies. 😉

  46. Tom Jones wrote:

    You are a disgrace to Grace.
    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.
    This blog is straight from the pit.
    I smelled sulfur when I logged on.

    Cool! Do you have one of those new smell-o-vision computers?

  47. Tom Jones wrote:

    strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, faction

    That exactly describes the neo-puritans among us. Have you even seen what they have done to the southern baptist convention? Have you followed the presbyterian wars? Have you read how puritanism got started and what they hoped to accomplish and how they went about that and the disagreements among them?

    If you say “no” then you cannot possibly have anything to say about these issues since you know nothing about them And if you say “yes” and still take the position you take, then you have identified yourself as one of the gang of trouble makers. Your best and only bet is to try to attack the individual persons here, because you have nothing worth hearing to say about the issues at this point..

  48. Eagle wrote:

    Isn’t that the Gospel?

    Nah. What you’re quoting, is definitely not the Gospel of Jesus, at best it’s the Gospel™©® (patents pending).

  49. Nancy wrote:

    Your best and only bet is to try to attack the individual persons here, because you have nothing worth hearing to say about the issues at this point..

    To save you the trouble of checking out some list of transgressions with which you might accuse us, individually and corporately, we are among those who get that and run to grace, as the fellow said. We don’t all do it the same way, but that is the direction you will see. So, “look at your sin ( in 25 words or less)” too late. We been there and done that.

    Better to criticize grammer or something, an area in which several of us need to improve.

  50. Off topic.

    Guy Penrod’s new CD of worship songs came out yesterday. I am off to the store to see if I can find it. I play Guy Penrod’s stuff in the car to ward off the natural frustrations of driving.

  51. Eagle wrote:

    I thought the Gospel is about a rock star pastor in Seattle who writes about how a woman should get down on her knees and give her man oral sex? AND then…you plagiarize 7 books! 😛

    Don’t forget juicing those books onto the Best-Seller lists!

    (Not as slick as Elron Hubbard, but then he’s got a smaller Cult.)

  52. Tom Jones wrote:

    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.

    Interesting. So this means that those who committ, apologize for, and cover up abuses, as well as those who label every theological disagreement heresy, are condemned. Because I know that you don’t think the true crime is in calling the abuser’s out on their egregious misbehavior.

  53. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    We seem to be afflicted with the same type of earworm, Nick, you antinomian Anglo-Saxon you 😉
    only mine’s singing ‘It’s not unusual to trolled by anyone…’ (apologies to the real Sir Thomas).
    I would have got in before you if I hadn’t been busy frying up aubergines for moussaka for tonight’s dinner.

  54. Hi. I’ve never commented on here before, but I’ve been a long time reader. I feel compelled to briefly share my story and state why I think it’s just inconceivable to think that CJ had NO knowledge of the abuse going on at CLC.

    I’ll try to be as succinct as I possibly can while I share my experience.

    My husband and I began attending a SGM church around the spring of 1992; we were there for approximately 4 years.

    During our time there, I started seeing red flags and shared those with my husband but he just didn’t feel the same way (how could he?? They continually hammered in the “husband is the head, he must lead” good ol’ boy kind of thing; never mind that he didn’t actually know how to lead. And as a side note, he eventually came around and sees the issues as well.)

    Anyway, I want to say that I’ve struggled with depression through out most of my life. During my time at this SGM church, the struggle increased. So, while I recognize that my issues with depression and anxiety did not begin at SGM, my experience there severely exacerbated those problems (due to the legalism, the toxic environment, the focus on indwelling sin, the focus on our unworthiness…etc.)

    Counseling outside the church (with professional counselors) and psychiatric meds were severely frowned upon. As my condition declined, my husband and I met with our “sphere” pastor and we were told things like I was the way I was because my husband wasn’t leading or I wasn’t submitting, etc. etc. If all I would do, said my sphere pastor’s wife, was just stay under that “umbrella” of authority, all would be well.

    Well…all was NOT well. Beginning late summer, early fall of 2006, I began having severe panic attacks; I had never experienced those before. I began crying ALL the time. Basically I became dysfunctional as a human being; I was unable to care for our children. I felt as though God was constantly displeased with me, that He was always looking over my shoulder making sure I was doing the “right” thing or thinking the “right” thoughts. I felt like He was just waiting to pounce on me. I couldn’t sleep or eat and lost a lot of weight.

    This was just a descent into madness, yet I felt if I pursued counseling or meds that somehow I was disobeying God.

    We met with the sphere pastor one more time; he informed us that he was leaving the country but could meet with us in two weeks upon his return. I honestly thought, “I’m not going to be here then.”

    I had come to a place of utter despair and hopelessness; one of the frequent things going through my head was something that was hammered a lot at SGM – “you’re just a sinner deserving of hell.”

    Needless to say, I ended up with a week-long vacation at the psychiatric ward; I think it was the best thing that could have happened to me and was instrumental in getting me away from SGM and the harmful teaching there. I think that saved my life, or rather, God used that to save my life.

    I would like to just add this note – absolutely none of my pastor’s (or pastor’s wives) visited me during that stay; I was just probably a 20-25 minute drive away.

    After I was released, I think maybe I went to one more care group and one more service and realized that I CAN NOT go back to this church; in fact, I wasn’t sure if I could ever step foot in a church again.

    Please bear with me; I’m getting to the part that explains WHY I think that CJ had to know about what was going on in his church.

    During the next several months, although I did not attend, I did meet with the senior pastor maybe two different times. To his credit, he did apologize to me and say that leadership had not “served” me well.

    Additionally, a friend of mine and her husband left SGM also; they had been involved in a church plant not far from the SGM church we had originally attended together, and she and her husband had been care group leaders. They ended up having a horrible experience as well.

    She told me that as care group leaders, they were instructed to report all that was talked about during the meetings to the sphere pastors and this in turn was reported to the head pastor. So, these care group leaders were taking mental notes about us and all we said and reported it all to leadership, without our knowledge, by the way.

    During one of my meetings with the senior pastor, I confronted him about this and he admitted to it, saying that he was the shepherd of my soul and would be held accountable for it; how else could he shepherd me if they didn’t do this? So they knew, they knew all that was going on within the congregation and discussed it with each other.

    And, that’s why these leaders (like The TGC) emphatically stating support for CJ, saying that he didn’t know, are infuriating me. They don’t know what kind of organization SGM is/was. Like TT said, “”C. J. was, for many years, the micro-managing head of the organization and nothing happened under the umbrella of Sovereign Grace that he wasn’t made aware of, so for anyone to say, ‘Well he didn’t know,’ that’s totally naive.”

    He nailed it; this organization was/is extremely micro-managing, and the pastor’s were apprised of everything.

    And what I would like to see is, at the very least, an ADMISSION, just something simple as, “you know folks, we screwed up. Due to a misunderstanding of Paul’s instructions, we thought we could and should handle things on our own. We messed up big time, and we (or I, CJ) are so sorry.” Just come clean; demonstrate what repentance looks like, instead of just commanding others to do it.

    And, also, I want to see justice and am so thankful for the results of the Morales trial.

    I said I thought that I would never step foot in a church again, but I’ve since experienced two very grace filled churches, and I am thankful for that.

    However, although there’s been a lot of healing, I just feel that I have to say something when I see these leaders unequivocally supporting CJ when I know the kind of environment that SGM fostered. And, as you can see from all the stories that have come forth over the years, this kind of environment wasn’t just limited to one church in the movement but seems to be characteristic of SGM as a whole

    Thank you so much for allowing me to speak. Traci

  55. Traci wrote:

    Just come clean; demonstrate what repentance looks like, instead of just commanding others to do it.

    A thousand times yes to this.

  56. @ burnrnorton:
    Thank you. I did get the help I needed, but I hope the main point that folks get from my post is the system of reporting that SGM has/had. Pastors didn’t hid things from one another; they met and discussed us so they could “shepherd” us much more effectively!

  57. What gets me about this whole sanctification debate is, if the neopuritan gospel coalition guys are the ones in the right, how is one to know when one has ENOUGH good works on a regular ENOUGH basis to be assured of their election and salvation? Is there some spiritual bar or cut-off point that I don’t know about?

    Constant navel-gazing, sin sniffing, and multiplying of rules one must live by to please God (or perhaps ensure one’s salvation?) can only be motivated by FEAR, not joyfully resting in the peace of Christ because of God’s amazing grace. If I look into myself for very long, of course I begin to despair. I don’t seem to resemble a maturing Christian by the various standards of a whole lot of Protestantism, not just the neopuritan crowd. If I didn’t keep in prayer to our heavenly Father and trust in Christ alone regarding my sanctification as well as my justification, I would have jettisoned Christianity a long time ago as not doable.

  58. What an awful experience, Traci, I am so sorry you had to go through all that. Thank you for sharing it with us, though, and giving me a peek as to what it was like to attend an SGM church. I am glad your church experiences since then have been happier and that you are healing.

  59. @ NJ:
    Yes, see my above post to see what happened to me living in that “sin-sniffing” environment. That’s not the only reason that I had a break down, but being there sure didn’t help much.

    And, one thing is they were big on “turning the tables”. If you tried to point out an issue with them or the ministry, the tables were turned right back on you – “let’s talk about YOUR indwelling sin; what are your heart issues?”

  60. @ Traci:
    It’s like theor Bible left out the part about “by their fruits you will know them”. Not getting the promised perfect results? The rules couldn’t be wrong -you just aren’t following them hard enough.

  61. Tom Jones wrote:

    This blog is straight from the pit.

    So why didn’t you listen to your Mama when she told you not to come? If you think the Deebs are daughters of darkness then just troll back to the green, green grass of home. 😀

  62. @ burnrnorton:
    Yes, if we just followed the rules, everything would be “OK”. If you just follow the rules we’ve set out for you – homeschool, obey your husband, joyfully come alongside your leaders, read the right books in the bookstore that have to be pastor approved (or pastor wife approved)etc, you’ll be fine, and if you’re not, you’re not doing something right.

    It was all about “right” doctrine – rightly handling the Scriptures, making sure we have all of our doctrinal “t’s” crossed and our doctrinal “i’s” dotted.

    Even one of their own (The GSC) said in a post that I read something like, “right doctrine does not always translate into right living.” It was a post about the Puritans are not that precious. It was really good, actually.

    They (SGM) did not acknowledge that people often have pain from their past; that we might have emotional wounds (why is that? When we have a physical wound, like a deep cut or an amputation, we all know it takes time to heal. Why don’t people recognize that emotional wounds need healing as well? They were so afraid that we would develop a victim mentality that they lacked compassion)

    Whatever we’ve experienced (according to them) or are currently experience, “it’s better than we deserve”, so basically quit your complaining, don’t take “the happy pill” and start praising God. I think that’s a big reason why these guys lack compassion for victims. If you’re strutting around, always telling people they are getting better than they deserve, that doesn’t really do much in the way of facilitating compassion.

  63. New Policy:
    No sexual innuendos out of respect to those who have been abused. No references to Nazism. No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch so pls understand that moderation slows things down since we are not chained to the computer.

  64. Tom Jones wrote:

    You are a disgrace to Grace.

    This is either a cool rhyme or a reference to Grace Driscoll.

    Secondly, if you wish to actually make a difference, could you please make a reference to those who have been abused. Otherwise we will assume that you just don’t care.

  65. @ Traci:
    I am so sorry for the pain you went through. I am grateful that you received the help that you needed outside of your SGM church. Smart, smart move.

    Your comment should be highlighted. Would you object to us using it in a post?

  66. Traci wrote:

    to the sphere pastors and this in turn was reported to the head pastor. So, these care group leaders were taking mental notes about us and all we said and reported it all to leadership, without our knowledge, by the way.
    During one of my meetings with the senior pastor, I confronted him about this and he admitted to it, saying that he was the shepherd of my soul and would be held accountable for it; how else could he shepherd me if they didn’t do this? So they knew, they knew all that was going on within the congregation and discussed it with each other.

    We experienced a similar, secret control issue in a non-SGM church, a very small church not associated with any of the prominent “shepherding” movements. The “pastor” instructed my wife’s friend to report to him everything that my wife might say to her about him! This ruined their friendship.

  67. Tom Jones wrote:

    This blog is straight from the pit.

    I smelled sulfur when I logged on.

    “Who ever smelt it dealt it”‘ if you get what I mean.;-)

  68. Traci wrote:

    During one of my meetings with the senior pastor, I confronted him about this and he admitted to it, saying that he was the shepherd of my soul and would be held accountable for it; how else could he shepherd me if they didn’t do this? So they knew, they knew all that was going on within the congregation and discussed it with each other.

    I am guessing that all SGM pastors are taught this line….it is almost to the word the same spiel I got from Marty Machowski when I sat down and wrangled for hours about the issues I saw. The self appointed gravitas of being a shepherd of my soul meant that he could say and do anything about people in his church but absolutely punished those that dared to disagree with their dictates.

    On a personal note, I’m glad you were able to find help and exit SGM. Thanks for sharing your story.

  69. NO, I don’t mind at all. Please feel free to use any of my comments; I hope that they will be helpful.

    @ dee:

  70. Oh…and the whole use of the word “serve” makes me want to puke. “How can we better serve you?”, “I am sorry you didn’t feel well served.” “If I can serve you in any way”, blah, blah, blah.

    The only time I felt served was when I played tennis with a pastor.

  71. dee wrote:

    New Policy:
    No sexual innuendos out of respect to those who have been abused. No references to Nazism. No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch so pls understand that moderation slows things down since we are not chained to the computer.

    All of which is fair enough.

    Can we still do song-titles, though? We’re on a roll with our singing Welsh friend! (At least – I assume he’s the Tom Jones.)

    I promise my next comment won’t be frivolous…

  72. I’m new at this and not sure how to highlight a quote. But, I agree about the whole “serve” business; it’s part of the lingo.

    NO, I don’t mind at all. Please feel free to use any of my comments; I hope that they will be helpful.

    @ dee:
    doubtful wrote:

    Oh…and the whole use of the word “serve” makes me want to puke. “How can we better serve you?”, “I am sorry you didn’t feel well served.” “If I can serve you in any way”, blah, blah, blah.

  73. burnrnorton wrote:

    It’s like theor Bible left out the part about “by their fruits you will know them”.

    Or the over-50 references to “one another.” Apparently, “one another” refers to all believers with the exception of a husband and wife.

  74. Traci wrote:

    And, one thing is they were big on “turning the tables”. If you tried to point out an issue with them or the ministry, the tables were turned right back on you – “let’s talk about YOUR indwelling sin; what are your heart issues?”

    That’s just Christianese for Defense by All-Out Counterattack.
    “WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM, MAN????? YOU’RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM!!!!!”

  75. NJ wrote:

    What gets me about this whole sanctification debate is, if the neopuritan gospel coalition guys are the ones in the right, how is one to know when one has ENOUGH good works on a regular ENOUGH basis to be assured of their election and salvation? Is there some spiritual bar or cut-off point that I don’t know about?

    TT’s point that legalists actually have a low view of God’s law is a very important one – actually, for me, that was one of those why didn’t I spot that before? moments.

    One of my favourite quotes what Jesus accomplished on the law/grace is actually from the sometimes-controversial Watchman Nee:

    To be set free from the Law means that, henceforward, I will do nothing whatever for God. I will never again try to please him.

    Obviously, even a trained monkey could take that quote out of context if he/she wanted to discredit Nee. But the truth underlying it is so outrageous I think it deserves to stand alone.

  76. burnrnorton wrote:

    @ Traci:
    It’s like theor Bible left out the part about “by their fruits you will know them”. Not getting the promised perfect results? The rules couldn’t be wrong -you just aren’t following them hard enough.

    Double down and Scream LOUDER.

    Like the Brezhnev-era Soviet Union, when things were really showing cracks all over.

    And the standard response was “INCREASE POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS INDOCTRINATION!”

  77. Traci wrote:

    Yes, if we just followed the rules, everything would be “OK”. If you just follow the rules we’ve set out for you – homeschool, obey your husband, joyfully come alongside your leaders, read the right books in the bookstore that have to be pastor approved (or pastor wife approved)etc, you’ll be fine…

    And it’ll be Unicorns Farting Rainbows and Free Ice Cream for Everybody.

    It was all about “right” doctrine – rightly handling the Scriptures, making sure we have all of our doctrinal “t’s” crossed and our doctrinal “i’s” dotted.

    What classic Communists called “Purity of Ideology”.

    Whatever we’ve experienced (according to them) or are currently experience, “it’s better than we deserve”, so basically quit your complaining, don’t take “the happy pill” and start praising God.

    In that context, what’s the difference between “taking the happy pill” and “praising God”? Or booking the old Egyptian River Cruise?

  78. Traci wrote:

    I did get the help I needed, but I hope the main point that folks get from my post is the system of reporting that SGM has/had. Pastors didn’t hide things from one another; they met and discussed us so they could “shepherd” us much more effectively!

    Like the Pigs of Animal Farm.

  79. Actually Dee, I’m going to have to make a passionate stand and say that you could be playing into the hands of TGC or SGM and other nefarious organizations, and here’s why.

    Many of these organizations white wash evil. They deny, they obfuscate, they explain away, etc… You are dealing with a very evil movement and when a Senior Pastor writes about material in his books, preach it from the pulpit, or when it’s the feature of a lawsuit it needs to be discussed. To tame it down so much that you can’t even quote from Mark Driscoll or CJ Mahaney himself is in a way supporting them. It’s the reason why some of the people I know support Driscoll and Mahaney. “They never would say that?” And the reaction they have when they do is either denying, or be shocked. So when sexual terms of Pastors is blocked and shut down you Dee Parsons are becoming a tool of Sovereign Grace, Mars Hill Seattle, etc… You are obstructing the truth. You are blocking the truth from being know. If you adopt such a policy you become CJ Mahaney or Mark Driscoll’s best friend.

    Part of the reason why people do not want to see or hear evil is because of how uncomfortable evil is. And it doesn’t matter if it’s the crematoriums in Auschwitz, a serial killer’s apartment in Milwaukee, of a church room in Covenant Life Church where a 3 year old was forced to forgive her abuser. By not talking graphically about evil you become a facilitator for evil. I can’t imagine that this is the goal of this blog, because in the end you undermine the purpose of this blog. Evil needs to be discussed; evil needs to be laid out on the table. The last thing those who promote evil want is to have evil being exposed front and center. It doesn’t matter if it’s a ministry based out of Louisville or a nation state in Europe. To white wash and refuse to talk about evil becomes an accessory to evil.

    Finally as for the victims you know darn well how I feel about them. You also know what I have had to manage for the past year, and how it both affected and threatened my life, job, and reputation. Jesus had Judas and I had a guy from Sovereign Grace who did something truly evil. And due to who he was where he went to school and his profession it became a great cover for evil to take place. That’s why I was railroaded.

    So consider this a passionate plea of rebuttal, and taking a different point of view.

  80. @ Traci:

    Traci- I read every word. Thank you for sharing your story which is probably similar to so many if they could be honest and share what really goes in churches like SGM and SBC mega churches like Prestonwood Baptist and Elevation Church. I’ve heard from people from Prestonwood even recently who’ve made the decision to finally leave. They echo the scenario you shared of the micro-managing and snitching on church members. These tactics are all about control and power. I think this also is happening even in smaller churches that maintain a toxic environment of control. God bless you and thank you for sharing your story.

  81. I just noticed an error in my first post today. I said that my husband and I started attending an SGM in 1992; that’s incorrect. We started attending in 2002 and left late 2006 (I had my breakdown mid November 2006) or early 2007 ( I maybe attended once in early 2007 but met with the pastor two times, kind of spread out). Sorry.

  82. dee wrote:

    New Policy:
    No sexual innuendos out of respect to those who have been abused. No references to Nazism. No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch so pls understand that moderation slows things down since we are not chained to the computer.

    I don’t know what your are dealing with in moderation, of course, but I do think that Eagle has a point. How can one talk about sexual abuse of children without talking about (ahem)? And how can one be appalled at MD and some of his (ahem) mess and (ahem) advice without talking about (ahem)? And truth be told some of the ideas and apparent goals of ultra neo-puritanism especially as seen in the reconstructionist movement are fascist, of which the (ahem) were good examples. And the whole gender comp thing really does have to do with (ahem).

    I am all for doing however you want, but I am going to need some more specifics in these areas to know how to deal with some of these issues.

  83. In the article Dee & Deb link to at the top of their page, there is a quote from John MacArthur.

    John MacArthur said: “Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth.”

    He couldn’t be more wrong. It is exactly where false teachers have ended up. I can think of three: Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris. All three have quietly been dropped by TGC. Yet they ended up there. And as long as no public denunciations are made, they’re still very much in the fold.

    It is exactly where frauds end up. Again, Driscoll and Mahaney. In particular – Mahaney. I can’t think of a greater fraud in the Christian world. He has Christian leaders fawning all over him, despite a wealth of documented evidence which shows in black and white that he’s a power-crazed deceiver.

    Oh, and that brings me to John’s third point. It is exactly where ‘greedy deceivers’ end up. T4G and TGC conference fees, anyone?

    And finally, it is exactly where liars and ‘those who misrepresent the truth’ end up. Look no further than The Gospel Coalition.

    The sad, sad irony is that ‘Reformed theology’ and ‘sound doctrine’ is as much of a haven for liars, frauds and greedy deceivers than any other branch of religion. Recent years have shown us that it is a VERY safe haven for these types of evil-doers.

  84. Traci wrote:

    And, one thing is they were big on “turning the tables”. If you tried to point out an issue with them or the ministry, the tables were turned right back on you – “let’s talk about YOUR indwelling sin; what are your heart issues?”

    This is similar to a management technique I experienced in corporate America. We would have regular staff meetings and every so often one of the very higher ups in the company would participate. He/she would appear interested and asked for suggestions, comments or just have a discussion about the work environment, also known as corporate culture. Inevitably, at the end of the meeting or shortly thereafter, we the worker bees were given assignments on how to improve. In other words, it was always our fault for whatever was ailing the company, never the management in charge.

  85. dee wrote:

    New Policy:
    No sexual innuendos out of respect to those who have been abused. No references to Nazism. No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch so pls understand that moderation slows things down since we are not chained to the computer.

    As a survivor, I am grateful for this policy. Thank you.

  86. May wrote:

    In the article Dee & Deb link to at the top of their page, there is a quote from John MacArthur.
    John MacArthur said: “Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth.”
    He couldn’t be more wrong. It is exactly where false teachers have ended up. I can think of three: Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris. All three have quietly been dropped by TGC. Yet they ended up there. And as long as no public denunciations are made, they’re still very much in the fold.
    It is exactly where frauds end up. Again, Driscoll and Mahaney. In particular – Mahaney. I can’t think of a greater fraud in the Christian world. He has Christian leaders fawning all over him, despite a wealth of documented evidence which shows in black and white that he’s a power-crazed deceiver.
    Oh, and that brings me to John’s third point. It is exactly where ‘greedy deceivers’ end up. T4G and TGC conference fees, anyone?
    And finally, it is exactly where liars and ‘those who misrepresent the truth’ end up. Look no further than The Gospel Coalition.
    The sad, sad irony is that ‘Reformed theology’ and ‘sound doctrine’ is as much of a haven for liars, frauds and greedy deceivers than any other branch of religion. Recent years have shown us that it is a VERY safe haven for these types of evil-doers.

    I can’t even imagine the sort of break-with-reality mindset someone like MacArthur must have to even think such a thing, let alone say it, let alone PROCLAIM IT to thousands, “Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth.”

    Actually, as a preacher, I CAN understand the mindset — when preaching, esp. to large crowds, one is tempted to say big and dramatic things to make one sound authoritative; I’ve (hate this about myself) been there and done that.

    To my point, however: Counter to MacArthur’s crazy talk, in my experience I have found PCA pastors to be “just like everyone else, only more so.” Some of the most amazing (kind, wise, courageous, humble) human beings I have ever met are PCA pastors. Some of the most average/mediocre people I have ever met are PCA pastors. And, yes, some of the most awful (hateful, stupid, cowardly, arrogant, destructive) people I have ever met are PCA pastors.

    Or, I could take MacArthur’s viewpoint, and as a Reformed pastor, pat myself on the back for being “sound, faithful, and godly.” No thanks. Being a Reformed pastor doesn’t say ANYTHING, one way or the other, about whether a person is sound, faithful, and godly.

  87. @ May:

    That quote from MacArthur is unbelievable! Reformed teachers are not immune to “total depravity”!

    They (these prominent leaders) seem to think that they can somehow grasp the Gospel more clearly than the rest of us, that their minds are not as tainted by depravity as ours. I am having a hard time believing someone has the audacity to make comments such as these, but there it is, right there in front of me.

  88. @ Traci:

    Traci — heart-wrenching story. I understand. thank you for taking the time to get it out. it is necessary, or else these things stay hidden and the one-eyed-one-horned-flying-purple-people-eaters continue to do their thing.

    your story and observations and experiences need to be heard by more and bigger audiences. (in my opinion)

  89. @ pcapastor:

    I know. The McArthur quote just shows how far some of these guys have lost their way. It is both extremely naïve and extremely arrogant at the same time.

  90. @ Sara:

    Then Sara with great respect you are playing along and facilitating evil, and opening other people to evil of which you sadly suffered. Especially if evil cannot be discussed. There were reasons why totalitarian regimes went to great lengths to cover genocide. And there are reasons why churches and evil religious ministries who cover up abuse use Non Disclosure Agreements, or shun, demonize and use false accusations to destabilize and go after people. This is how they operate….it’s their modus operandi. And if people here can’t quote from Mark Driscoll or CJ Mahaney then I see no reason why people who post here should not sign Non Disclosure Agreements as a condition for posting. If that’s the case than this blog is now in the league of Mars Hill Seattle. By choosing to not discuss, quote or reference the Big Dogs (as they call them at Survivors) who perpetuate evil in the end we are doing what they want and facilitating evil in the end. Life has a lot of grey but when it comes to evil its only black and white.

    Finally a couple of quotes…

    The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil. – Cicero

    Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil. – Plato

    The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil. – Johanna “Hannah” Arendt

  91. @ dee:

    “No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    I understand. but can “one-eyed-one-horned-flying-purple-people-eaters” be my all-purpose word? would you like to hear what is many notches below? 🙂

  92. As long as we are discussing evil then to what length should we avoid not talking about it? When I took German history I learned in graphic detail about German eugenics programs that advocated euthanasia. When we studied the Holocaust we went into graphic details about mass genocide and how it was carried out. I had to read primary source firsthand accounts should I not have done that because it was so uncomfortable? My professor even talked about how uncomfortable it was to teach it.

    When any of you visit Washington, D.C. and you visit the National Holocaust Museum then you are shown videos of German medical experiments done on people in concentration camps. It’s disturbing, its uncomfortable, but it has its purpose. How will the generations to come know about the Holocaust if such disturbing evidence is not shown to the world as a reminder.

    The same holds true for some of the teachings of the Neo-Cal/Neo-Puritan leaders. If you can’t reference or quote what CJ Mahaney says then how will people know what is being taught? If you can’t reference Mark Driscoll and what he teaches then all you are doing is playing along with their game. It’s self censorship that cripples exposure to what they are teaching of advocating. Part of the reason why I think we’ve gotten to this point is by calling them out and discussing what they have said. If we didn’t reference what they said then it would have been covered up and white washed.

  93. @ Traci:

    Thank you for sharing your story. I’m glad you are better now and can move on in your life. It is good for people to know the devastating impact that SGM churches and similar churches have on people with depression and mental illnesses. These churches are no place of help and hope to the many suffering with such issues.

  94. Tom Jones wrote:

    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.

    So where does this put Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc?

  95. Deb, Dee,
    Thank you for the new guidelines.
    I’ve found many triggers among the numerous sexual references and jokes, which most of the time have nothing to do with the actual abuse stories.
    The abusive situations have already been well documented, history has been preserved. We can and should respect all the work that goes into each post and certainly take it up a notch out of respect for all survivors who read here.
    Thank you.

  96. @ Bridget:

    You are welcome, and I hope the sharing of my story brings help or hope or more shedding of light on these situations. I actually shared my story back in 2007 or so on SGM Refuge and SGM Survivors, but I’ve been quiet for a long time.

    I been reading up on this stuff for quiet a while now, and quietly lurking on all the blogs. I think the reason that I’ve feel inclined to speak up again is because of all of the undying support and praise that these big leaders keep heaping on CJ and their insistence that he didn’t know.

    And, I just wanted to share my story once again, with particular emphasis this time around on how I think the micro managing, sin sniffing, authoritarian, super-shepherding culture/environment at SGM would not have it any other way but for him (CJ), as head pastor, to be informed of all that went on; that was/is just part of their whole authoritarian, controlling structure.

  97. @ Watching:

    This is the reason why SGM Survivors has gone downhill and become nothing but a random forum. A powerful voice that challenged SGM was wasted in the course of time. There were a lot of stories documented at SGM Refuge…that’s gone. Ever read the story of Esther at SGM Chesapeake? That was a horrific and documented story of domestic abuse that disappeared along with SGM Refuge. You are assuming that because it’s documented in the past that those who will cross paths with this site in the future will know about it. That is not true…and for the record I have my triggers as well. I sit 20 feet away from mine. I had to manage a difficult situation that made my life hell and entered the darkest season of my life.

  98. @ Eagle:

    I think you are misunderstanding what Deebs is asking. IMO she didn’t ask for anyone to stop quoting anyone or to stop making connections to what men believe and the fruit it produces.

    As a survivor, Sarah has difficulty with sexual inuendos. Can we understand that?

    The Deebs are finding it difficult to moderate when there is an abundance of certain kinds of comments. Can we understand that? They want people to be able to comment freely, but because of trolls and those who want to discredit their blog, they had to institute guidelines for moderation purposes. We can make the task simple or complicated. The more we trip moderation, the longer comments stay in moderation and the conversation gets slowed down, or we miss comments that show up late but earlier in the thread.

    That’s the way I see it anyway.

  99. I guess what I am trying to say is that when someone suggests that the senior pastor of a SGM church would be unaware of situations such as these, I find it very doubtful, almost darn near impossible to believe given SGM’s structure, environment and desire to know all things going on with members in order to “shepherd” them more “effectively”.

  100. Eagle wrote:

    @ Sara:
    Then Sara with great respect you are playing along and facilitating evil, and opening other people to evil of which you sadly suffered. Especially if evil cannot be discussed. There were reasons why totalitarian regimes went to great lengths to cover genocide. And there are reasons why churches and evil religious ministries who cover up abuse use Non Disclosure Agreements, or shun, demonize and use false accusations to destabilize and go after people. This is how they operate….it’s their modus operandi. And if people here can’t quote from Mark Driscoll or CJ Mahaney then I see no reason why people who post here should not sign Non Disclosure Agreements as a condition for posting. If that’s the case than this blog is now in the league of Mars Hill Seattle. By choosing to not discuss, quote or reference the Big Dogs (as they call them at Survivors) who perpetuate evil in the end we are doing what they want and facilitating evil in the end. Life has a lot of grey but when it comes to evil its only black and white.
    Finally a couple of quotes…
    The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil. – Cicero
    Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil. – Plato
    The sad truth is that most evil is done by people who never make up their minds to be good or evil. – Johanna “Hannah” Arendt

    Whoa. Okay, it seems like you are passionate about this. I respect and appreciate your honesty.

    I just don’t know how we jumped from Dee saying “please don’t use sexual innuendos” to Dee and Deb running a blog that “is now in the league of Mars Hill Seattle” let alone your assertion that I personally am now “playing along and facilitating evil” by not wanting to read sexual innuendos in the comments. I’m not going to take that personally because you do not know me. If that came from someone who knew me, someone I trusted, I would take it to heart. But I can’t imagine ever hearing that from someone I know or trust because it simply isn’t consistent with how I live my life.

    As a survivor, I don’t want to see sexual innuendos laced throughout conversations on a blog that supports sexual abuse/assault survivors. I don’t even know what prompted Dee’s (polite) request for us to avoid those kinds of comments.

    I do believe it’s appropriate to quote and refute what leaders say, even if those quotes refer to sex, marriage, etc. If those quotes contain sexual innuendo, it doesn’t bother me as much assuming those quotes are being vehemently refuted and replaced by truth. I just don’t want individual commenters saying sexually provocative things for the fun of it.

    Dee or Deb, would you please clarify for all of us specifically what you’re referring to regarding sexual innuendos, triggers, etc?

  101. Traci wrote:

    I guess what I am trying to say is that when someone suggests that the senior pastor of a SGM church would be unaware of situations such as these, I find it very doubtful, almost darn near impossible to believe given SGM’s structure, environment and desire to know all things going on with members in order to “shepherd” them more “effectively”.

    You have articulated your point very well. The point you make is corroborated by hundreds of testimonies on Survivors, the site Eagle is talking about. Many, many voices have risen up in the past few years, from different churches, different situations, yet all in agreement with other on this issue. And have the ‘Big Dogs’ deigned to listen, read, or acknowledged this outcry, beyond dismissing it as mere ‘hearsay’ (TGC)?? No, they’d rather believe their buddy C.J.

  102. pcapastor wrote:

    I can’t even imagine the sort of break-with-reality mindset someone like MacArthur must have to even think such a thing, let alone say it, let alone PROCLAIM IT to thousands, “Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth.”

    Ah, the Total Arrogance of the True Believer, Absolutely Certain that THEY are Right and YOU are Wrong. The Arrogance of the Predestined Elect, kissing their Get-out-of-Hell-Free card signed by God Himself before the foundation of the world. The Arrogance of God’s Speshul Pets with their Occult Gnosis of Perfectly-Parsed Theology.

    Nya ha ha, My Dear Wormwood.
    Nowhere do we corrupt as successfully as at the very foot of the altar.

    “For in the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to be Absolutely Wrong. This does not lead to peace among men.”
    — Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”.

  103. pcapastor wrote:

    Actually, as a preacher, I CAN understand the mindset — when preaching, esp. to large crowds, one is tempted to say big and dramatic things to make one sound authoritative; I’ve (hate this about myself) been there and done that.

    Until like Herod Agrippa, they cry out as one:
    “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
    THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”

  104. May wrote:

    The sad, sad irony is that ‘Reformed theology’ and ‘sound doctrine’ is as much of a haven for liars, frauds and greedy deceivers than any other branch of religion. Recent years have shown us that it is a VERY safe haven for these types of evil-doers.

    To me, Reformed Doctrine is Calvinist for The Party Line, Comrade.

    Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?

    With EVERYTHING Perfectly Parsed and Worked Out in Every Detail and Inevitably Predestined?

  105. @ Nancy:
    Thanks for the heads up. I enjoy listening to Guy Penrod. And I am in desperate need of music to listen to as I drive 1400 miles to my new home with a noisy cat in the backseat. 🙂

  106. @ Bridget: exactly, Bridget.

    Eagle, there is a *huge* difference between plain and sober description of abuse and sexual innuendo. People have been pushing the limits on sexual “jokes”/innuendo here for a long time, but the buck has to stop somewhere. I don’t think your comparisons to the SGM Survivors site are applicable, as thers is SO much else going on over there re. who can post and who can’t that has ZIP to do with sexual innuendo. I also think a lot of folks are just plain weary and burned out re. having the same discussions over and over.

    I also get why the references to National Socialism and the Holocaust are being moderated. It’s easy to go overboard on those comparisons, and while I agree that what’s gone on in SGM is evil, I don’t believe it’s equivalent to deliberate genocide on a massive scale. Are both things evil? Certainly. But if I were a Holocaust survivor, I’m not sure I’d appreciate the comparison.

  107. Eagle wrote:

    Part of the reason why people do not want to see or hear evil is because of how uncomfortable evil is. And it doesn’t matter if it’s the crematoriums in Auschwitz, a serial killer’s apartment in Milwaukee, of a church room in Covenant Life Church where a 3 year old was forced to forgive her abuser. By not talking graphically about evil you become a facilitator for evil.

    You’re really on a roll today, Eagle.

    That statement reminds me of the folk magic used in Manly Wade Wellman’s weird fiction. That if you watch a black magic working and don’t object to it, you are participating in the working and giving the black magic (and whatever entities are behind it or being worshipped through it) power over you. You have volunteered to put yourself under their power.

  108. @ Eagle:

    Eagz, I think you may have mis-read Dee’s request, because I certainly didn’t read therein any prohibition on saying anything negative about anyone nor on discussing or exposing dark or evil things.

    “No sexual innuendos” means, to my understanding, no frivolous asides or jokes revolving around sexual humour. This does not mean no mention or discussion of criminal acts of sexual violence committed under “church” aegis – that is fact, not innuendo, especially for those who are sharing their personal experience.

    No references to national socialism – I do know about the extent to which (and many reasons why) evil people find safe haven in churches, and I too have experienced what happens when you stand up to a self-serving liar who has seated himself in Moses’ seat. Most of us here have that T-shirt, I guess. It doesn’t take a Godwin’s Law comparison to see how evil these things are, though.

    No name-calling: my own personal experience is that being angry doesn’t force me to “post angry”. But as for taking the moderation up a notch, I think there are significant things afoot here.

    For a long while, blogs like this one were the only recourse for victims of sexual predation and abuse in churches. But the Morales trial changes everything. A predator, whose church setting tragically failed to curb his behaviour, has been brought to justice by the secular legal system. He is unlikely to be the last. We are facing the genuine prospect that God is, in the coming (figurative) season, about to take away the protection these people have enjoyed and expose them to the rigours of a justice system that doesn’t share their conference platforms and is not interested in their books or doctrine. Victims who were silenced by their church settings will be given a formal platform and a fair opportunity to influence game-changing and weighty judgements.

    This confers a responsibility on us all, because any culture of name-calling in Christian circles presents a potential opportunity, even if only small, for the defence lawyers to argue that powerful clergy will not get a fair trial. The opportunity facing people whose love of Jesus is proved by their love of the least of his brothers and sisters is too important to jeopardise.

  109. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But as for taking the moderation up a notch, I think there are significant things afoot here.

    Apparently so. No idea what, but I think we are all racing on the yellow right now.

  110. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Tom Jones wrote:

    You are a disgrace to Grace.

    It’s not un-u-su-al to be loved by anyone… (da-da-da-da-daaaaaaa)

    You made me lol *shakes fist*

  111. Yeah, seconding Nick here. I took the new guideline to = no more crude sex jokes, not no more plain speaking about sex abuse.

    FWIW though, I would be interested in knowing what prompted the new rule, since I don’t recall any massive sex- or Nazism-related dustups in the comments recently (unless I missed something).

  112. I am grateful for all of our commenters who are so passionate about the important matters being discussed in this forum.

    In recent weeks we have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of comments under some of our posts. Frankly, it has been difficult to keep up with all of them, research and write posts, and respond to e-mails, not to mention Twitter!

    Dee and I spoke earlier today and decided that it is in the best interest of the blog to tighten up our commenting policy a bit, as has been clarified at the top. We would sincerely appreciate your cooperation in this matter. 🙂

  113. May wrote:

    In the article Dee & Deb link to at the top of their page, there is a quote from John MacArthur.
    John MacArthur said: “Reformed theology, sound doctrine, is not a haven for false teachers. It’s not where false teachers reside. Reformed theology, sound doctrine, faithful, biblical exposition among the long line of godly men is not a place for false teachers. It’s not where frauds go. It’s not where greedy deceivers end up. It’s not where you find liars and those who misrepresent the truth.”
    He couldn’t be more wrong. It is exactly where false teachers have ended up. I can think of three: Mark Driscoll, C.J. Mahaney and Josh Harris. All three have quietly been dropped by TGC. Yet they ended up there. And as long as no public denunciations are made, they’re still very much in the fold.

    You’re absolutely right that JMac couldn’t be more wrong about this, and I’m sure he’s not the only one who thinks this way. It’s definitely a pattern in this crowd that the leader and those who align with him can do no wrong. Thing is, they’ve been steeped in this mindset for so long, I don’t think they’re capable of escaping it. And it trickles down to their followers as well. Just try giving an alternative interpretation on any of their blogs and see how relentless the responses are in trying to get you in line. They work incredibly hard to maintain this bubble of superiority. The vehemence and dynamic of it all definitely have cultic tendencies.

    Terrible thing is, when you think you and your crowd are that superior and faultless, you end up justifying some really awful things.

  114. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Nick,

    Well in the post I had deleted I quoted about what CJ Mahaney bragged about his wife who was experiencing morning sickness. And I quoted from Valerie Tarico’s article on Mars Hill Seattle with how Mark Driscoll got a man to go to church. Yes it was crude, terse, and over the limit…but what is to be expected? It’s crude because the theology is crude. It’s crude because the pastors have the industrial empire, blogs, and media behind them. It’s crude because these men have the platform to do it on. Most people from the Mom and Pops to young career folk do not have this kind of platform to speak their views and even do anything if they wanted to.

    National Socialism is a bit over the top but with Joe Carter’s tactics I thought it a unique and limited example. I write from the vantage point of studying and having a grad degree in American and European History. Its why and how I find the tactics and techniques in the Cold War, Communist China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, etc… And since I once drank from the Mormon well and guzzled the LDS kool-aid I look and find strong parallels between some of these theological movements. I can’t say that about the Catholics, Lutherans, and mainstream Protestants. This is unique to this subset of evangelicalism.
    But I found the guidance to be terse, over the top and lacking in poor communication.

    And this is something I do care about. And no it’s not because I get a rouse of being crude, but it’s a part of having honest discussion. That’s it.

  115. Tom said:

    You are a disgrace to Grace.
    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.
    This blog is straight from the pit.
    I smelled sulfur when I logged on.

    You smelled that because you are there where it comes from. Only a devil would attack bloggers who stand up for the oppressed, abused, and dismissed.

  116. @ Deb: Deb, I can’t even begin to imagine all the behind the scenes stuff, but at one time I was a moderator at a discussion forum. So I can appreciate – in a small way – why you’re upping the game re. commenting/moderation policy.

    You’ve got my support.

  117. @ Eagle:

    You have often brought up those things in comments. We all know about them; they are matters of record. I'm not sure any purpose is served by bringing them up over and over again. (referring to your 1st paragraph, per Mahaney and Driscoll.)

  118. Hester wrote:

    FWIW though, I would be interested in knowing what prompted the new rule, since I don’t recall any massive sex- or Nazism-related dustups in the comments recently (unless I missed something).

    That is what I am having trouble with. Looking at what has been said, and noting that we? somebody? need to cut that out, I have no real idea exactly what needs to be cut out. Personally, I am perfectly capable of shutting up, but I am not capable of pretending. So for now I am going to shut up and wait and see how this plays out.

  119. To our dear readers-a clarification

    The Deebs are in over their proverbial heads and we are having trouble keeping up with things on the blog. We are in desperate need of help and we think we may have a partial solution but cannot tell you immediately until we get the OK from some friends.

    We plan to write a post tomorrow to explain some of out thoughts. This blog, much to our surprise, has garnered much attention all over the cotton picking place. We are being watched like a hawk. Recently, Joe Carter made some direct comments about slander/lawsuits to me in Twitter. That is deeply upsetting to us.

    I have no concerns about what we write in our posts. We are careful, linking to our sources. However, the comments sometimes have elements in them that could be misconstrued.

    We want to discuss, in detail, child sex abuse, Driscoll’s sex talks, etc. Good grief- I wrote a post discussing, in detail, the problems with anal sex in response to a Driscoll sermon. However, we do not want to add crude comments that are joking about sex. Here is one example of what I am talking about. I am not saying anyone said this exact thing. *Trigger alert*

    “Xian celeb 1 and Xian celeb 2 get wet dreams over the death toll from a tidal wave.”

    However, to describe the abuse that took place in the 2nd Amended lawsuit is appropriate.

    Secondly, as much as we might dislike a particular theologian, they are not Hitler in magnitude unless you are discussing someone who wishes to annihilate a people group. Now, if an atheist comes on the blog and asks how God could destroy a people group in the Old Testament and how this appears to be like Hitler, then we engage them because that is a legitimate question that Christians should answer.

    I spoke today to a dear person who child was sexually abused and she talked about how difficult it is to hear people crudely joking about these issues. I think she had a valid point. She is not the only one.

    We removed the word “sex” from our filter because we do discuss child sex abuse and Mark Driscoll. So, some comments are slipping through that we do not catch.

    Look, when we started this blog, we hope to get maybe 30-40 people who might like to discuss issues. This blog has gone way beyond our expectations and we are trying to muddle through difficult issues.

    We are open to being called wrong, sell-outs, etc. Recently, JD Hall called us a vile cesspool of sewage. I think I have that right. But, we muddle on. Once we get our plan in action, I think things will settle down and most folks will not notice any significant difference.

    Please give us a chance and know that we will always stand against any and all abuse. We love you guys and are frustrated that we can’t speak to each of you one on one.

  120. Galatians 5:16 —

    “This I say, then, Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.”

    Galatians 5:19 – 21

    “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, carousing, drunkenness, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    Galatians 5:22 – 23

    “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, against such there is no law.”

    Galatians 5:24 – 25

    “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”

    People who have never received Christ (a la John 1:12, 13) cannot enter God’s Kingdom. People do not stand a chance of “doing God’s Kingdom” without the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    “It is the Spirit which gives life, the flesh is of no avail.” John 6:63

  121. dee wrote:

    To our dear readers-a clarification

    Dee, thank you so much for this clarification (the whole of which I didn’t highlight here so as to save space). But know that I appreciate it and I’m grateful for this blog.

  122. @ Sara:

    Sara-

    I am not trying to be difficult with you or put you down. Far from it, but I quoted from CJ Mahaney and a Valerie Tarcio (check out exchristian.net) on an article on Mars Hill Seattle. I think those were confused to be sexual innuendo. If so than Valerie Tarico and other publications are doing sexual innuendo when just when these guys are quoted. I get the fact that women are more uncomfortable about these discussions. However, what makes me uncomfortable is seeing evil like what Driscoll says being classified as sexual innuendo and saying its off limits. How can you discuss neo-Reformed theology without quoting some of these guys sermons, talks, books, etc… Its important for the sake of being honest that these things aren’t swept to the side because the are uncomfortable. I have always had an underlying feeling about this here and don’t wish to see that happen.

    Please don’t take what I am saying personally. I am not trying to be vicious or harsh. I am not trying to gang up and anyone. And I am not downplaying what you are saying. What drove me away from God for years was the entire Problem of Evil. And I am sensitive to it. And I respect and grieve for what you have gone through. As for me I have my own story. I had someone who placed an incredible amount of pressure on me at times to attend a Sovereign Grace church. We fought and the friendship fractured in time but before that happened. I was invited into his home for a couple of days and this guy used his authority and position to attempt in highly questionable and unethical way. I was horrified and found myself thrust into a dark season. The situation was so traumatic that I went into physical shock after the incident. And after I was railroaded this individual moved on and focused on recruiting someone else into Sovereign Grace. Part of the reason why this was so serious is because of who this guy was and where he went to school. Trust me you paid for him to go to this school. I did also…

    But I am not trying to hurt you Sara, I care about this stuff being exposed because I want SGM, Mars Hill, and so many other churches to go into the dust bin of history never to harm another soul.

  123. @ numo:

    You know about them that’s true….but what about the people who are lurking here who haven’t followed this blog or today was the first day they showed up? How would they know? I remind people of this stuff not for perverse joy, but to call them out as frauds. Which they are. In some ways this is my way of venting because I know people who are into these guys and its made my life difficult. How do you talk faith with a friend who quotes Driscoll or Piper for that matter.

  124.   __

    Robin:  ,

    Hey,

      Jesus after His resurrection, asked Saul (who’s name was later changed to Paul, the Apostle) to go and bring His (Jesus’) good news to the Gentiles. 

    According to the Scriptures, the grace that was given to Apostle Paul from God, was that he should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, i.e. that he should minister to them the gospel of God, for the purpose that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, what the Jews rejected, Jesus was willing to offer to the Gentile nations, with the possibility of grafting them in to the true vine (Jesus Himself).

    As you may recall, the Gentiles have never been under the Hebrew law, but a law unto themselves. If any, subjecting themselves to the laws of nature, but, in no way are they connected to the laws God gave the Israelites at Sinai.

    fast forward a bit…

    In his travels, Saul/Paul explained to the Gentiles, a message of Christ, who He was, and what He did on the cross for them. He was patient and he was kind; he asked for no money. However, he did  invited them to consider Jesus’ words and to believe in Jesus, and his promise of forgiveness of sins, restoration to His (Jesus’) Father (The Creator, God), translation to His kingdom, and the extraordinary promise of eternal life, to name a few…

    Apostle Paul may have in certain places explained the Hebrew law as he introduced Christ Jesus to his Gentiles listeners, however nowhere in his writings is he recorded as saying the Gentiles are under it or subject to it.

        Paul explained to the Gentiles, that in explaining the Hebrew law,  God had purposed it as a means one day, to lead an individual to belief in His Beloved Son, Jesus.

    The Book of Acts records that many listened to Paul’s wonderful liberating message of Christ, and believed!

    In summation, kInd folk, please  be reminded of the liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that the proverbial 501(c)3 religious pastoral dogs might not bring us into bondage.

    ATB

    Sopy

  125. There is a danger in over zealous rules governing comments. If the object is a level of sanitization that ensures a ‘G’ rated blog in its entirety, it can seriously compromise freedom of expression. Let me be clear by also saying that freedom of expression does not mean anything goes, it simply means that we should all be adult and tolerant enough to know the difference between the bawdy and the inflammatory for its own sake, and that which is a valid device to elucidate a point.

  126. @ dee:

    Well said! As a "volunteer" blogger, I never dreamed how time-consuming this endeavor would be (not that I would change anything).

    I know we, along with our commenters, are definitely making a difference. To God be the glory!

  127. Absolutely agree: Grace does not lead me to sin. Grace leads me out of and beyond sin to a relationship with the Lord of Love and Life.

    Dee’s perspective totally reminds me of Romans 7 and 8, and Galatians 5:17.

    I am always encouraged that even Paul, who was so close to the Lord, contended with the daily struggle between the flesh and the Spirit.

    Though I set my mind and heart on God, I still act out my self-centeredness.

    Nevertheless, my sin is forgiven.

    God sees my life this way, “But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if, indeed, God’s spirit dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.” Romans 8:9

    The Law shows up all my failings, but God’s grace, which the Holy Spirit imparts to me every moment of each day, continually delivers me from my failings, heals and restores me from sin’s damage in my life.

  128. Muff Potter wrote:

    Let me be clear by also saying that freedom of expression does not mean anything goes, it simply means that we should all be adult and tolerant enough to know the difference between the bawdy and the inflammatory for its own sake, and that which is a valid device to elucidate a point.

    Hear, Hear! We are not attempting to be a "G-rated" blog per se. We would, however, appreciate our commenters being considerate of others who are reading here.

  129. @ Eagle: I think there are ways to mention these things that are not inflammatory nor jokey nor sexual innuendo. And you can always point folks to relevant posts, no?

  130. Thank you so much Dee and Deb for all your hard work on this blog. It is a vital and important ministry that has brought healing, grace, encouragement and blessings to many. You need to keep this up gals, it’s more important now than ever.

    God bless you both.

  131. @ numo:

    Numo…

    I want people to remember what CJ Mahaney did to his pregnant wife and how he boasted of it. Why? Because a real man would never do such a thing. A real man would never think of doing such a thing. And I find it to be the height of hypocrisy to talk about male authority and abuse it in that manner. It’s sick, it’s garbage. I want people to remember Mahaney by how he treated and boasted about his wife. It speaks volumes about his lack of character.

  132. I understand where the Deebs are coming from. It’s something I’ve had to wrestle with as I prepare for C.J. Mahaney’s appearance in Phoenix.

    Do you know how hard it is to come up with short, pithy, accurate and not vague statements for protest signs? REALLY difficult! I’m having to work around the fact that Mahaney has never been under oath for these issues and has never been asked the hard questions. Some inferences can be drawn, however, from other people’s testimony and that’s what I’m having to work with. (Honestly, Scientology is so much easier because L. Ron Hubbard had a chronic case of foot-in-mouthitis.)

    It would be a lot easier if the sponsoring organization and the not-located-here-in-the-Southwest-region church organizing this conference were to realize that maybe it’s not a real good idea to invite a speaker who pastored a church for a couple of decades but apparently never knew *really* what was going on there. If he didn’t know, then maybe he’s incompetent and why would you take his advice on much of anything?

    That said, I’m proceeding on the assumption that Mahaney will be in Phoenix June 20-23 and will be preparing accordingly.

  133. Deb wrote:

    Well said! As a “volunteer” blogger, I never dreamed how time-consuming this endeavor would be (not that I would change anything).

    One solution is to produce a blog that isn’t as useful or as good.

    (Apparently…)

  134. Just one more and then I’m off to bed (it’s that time again here around zero longitude), on the priceless quote from Mr MacArthur on the absence of false teachers in his neck of the theological woods.

    Q: How do you know when you’re being deceived?
    A: You don’t.

    The first place to look for deceived people is among those who are convinced they can’t be deceived.

  135. @ Deb:

    Understood, and you have my full compliance. But I must respectfully say that I have yet to read anything from the regular denizens here at TWW that can even be remotely construed as disrespectful to the injured survivors of brutal religious regimes that come here for safe harbor.

  136. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The first place to look for deceived people is among those who are convinced they can’t be deceived.

    “The first rule of Fight Club is…”

  137. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And you can always refer to South Park or have somebody do street theater as Xenu…

    I KNOW Xenu! (Seriously, I know the woman who used to wear the space-alien head and costume with the beauty-queen XENU sash across it. She had the best time, which made up for wearing a hot space-alien head.)

  138. @ Eagle: I think the solution is in finding a different way to do it, no? For my part, I read it once and that was more than enough, though I’m not suggesting that people should never mention it. It isn’t an easy thing to think about for me, and I’m sure that’s true for many others as well.

    I think that the way things are discussed is important, but that’s a bit of a tangent, as Nick and others have clearly explained it, in better ways than I’m able to at the moment.

  139. @ Eagle:

    Eagle, I’m so so sorry for the trauma you’ve experienced. And I will hope and believe for you the same thing I hope and believe for myself — for a palpable sense of comfort, of peace, of truth, of meaning in the midst of pain. Be well. And thank you for your honesty.

  140. @ numo:

    Numo…I see where you are coming from. What I am trying to convince you of is of those people who do not know the story or have not heard. Do you know what “Group Think is?” Group Think is a what happens when outside pressure results in pressure for people to go along with the decision. Group Think is deadly and dangerous. The Rogers Commission in the wake of the Challenger Disaster in 1986 listed Group Think as part of the reason why the space shuttle was lost. That said, I fear that in this forum there can also be group think which prevents honest discussion or from new people coming aboard and learning about these issues. I know what Driscoll and Mahaney have said. You do to, others have here. However we can fall into a Group Think mentality and assume that all people who read here know what Driscoll and Mahaney have taught. In the end the truth is lost and those who join or start to read this blog say because of a Twitter conversation, or reading the Huffington Post article might not know this or even be aware. That’s why from time to time this should be brought up. I feel strongly about this because people need to be reminded of who these guys are and the reckless damage they cause.

    Read the articles below on group think, one is a study of the Challenger and the second explores group think in a general sense.

    http://pirate.shu.edu/~mckenndo/pdfs/The%20Space%20Shuttle%20Challenger%20Disaster.pdf

    http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_82.htm
    One thing I have wanted to communicate to the Deebs behind the scenes is a post
    explaining how this blog came to be? What happened at their Baptist church and what led them to blog and start writing about this. The Deebs knows, as do you and I, but do people who chimed in today know? Again Group Think, I would wager that Group Think could be more pervasive on the internet than in an office culture.

  141. @ Sara:

    Sara it's okay…you didn't know, and I am sorry if I pressed your buttons or hurt you. This is the last place I want anyone to feel hurt – especially you. I had two entanglements with questionable religious organizations in my life. Mormonism in Montana and Sovereign Grace in Washington, D.C. Please forgive me if I hurt you with my comments.

  142. mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Do you know how hard it is to come up with short, pithy, accurate and not vague statements for protest signs?

    How about something like a couple of the damning quotes from Grant Leyman’s testimony at the trial with the identifying info at the end – Mahaney’s brother-in-law and associate pastor for ____ years

  143. Eagle wrote:

    @ Sara: Sara it's okay…you didn’t know and I am sorry if I pressed your buttons or hurt you. This is the last place I want anyone to feel hurt – especially you. I had two entanglements with questionable religious organizations in my life. Mormonism in Montana and Sovereign Grace in Washington, D.C. Please forgive me if I hurt you with my comments.

    Of course. We are all good.

  144. @ Eagle:
    Fwiw I get what you’re saying. And what’s more, the stories these people shared were scripted. Even in this it’s easy to come away with the impression CJ imposed himself on his reluctant wife.

    Thing is the Mahaney’s were good story tellers and worked together to create an impression that their relationship conformed to all the standards they imposed upon others.

    As we know married couples were given pretty strict guidelines that extended into how their relationship was to be ordered, what role each was to fulfill, how they should raise & educate their children, what was/wasn’t appropriate for them to talk about in private, how to take their family on vacation, or how to approach having sex. You name it. The Mahaney’s were there to plant their flag of ownership in it, presume credit for any and all conformity, and charge you for your obedience.

    But in reality the picture was very different than the image. CJ didn’t really inspect all his wife’s clothing choices or approve her outfits. That was a story they told to impose rule and order in their ranks.

    CJ didn’t really manage the household finances like he told all the men they must do, Carolyn did. But they both told the men and women it was God’s order for the men to be in charge of things like that.

    Carolyn didn’t really wish to spend all her time at home living in obscurity, totally behind the scenes. She only said she had to be coaxed out of the kitchen in order to bless and serve the women of CLC.

    And when it came down to it I’m sure there’s been plenty of times when, although they’ve both claimed she has never refused him EVER, she has including when she was with child and struggling with morning sickness.

    The Mahaney’s should write a new book together in which they share all their Tall Tales. Unlike their other words, this one would more than booklet size. Theyre two peas in a pod. You can’t believe the one and not the other because they work together in unison. Carolyn only pretends she’s in the background, following along as though she’s submissive and obsequious. She’s part of the act!!!

  145. The comparison between the Puritans and the T4G/TGC group (“new-Puritans”) is well-founded. Almost 20 years ago, John Armstrong’s now-defunct journal Reformation and Revival published an article by Thomas Smith called “The Perils of Puritanism”. I thought it spot on then – now, it is darn near prophetic.

  146. @ Eagle: Eagle, the thing w/Mahaney sounds like rape – I know there are people who don’t believe that marital rape exists, but…

    Please understand that *lots* of women and teenage girls are survivors of rape and/or attempted sexual assault. There are walking wounded out here in God alone knows how many millions.

    All we are asking for is some discretion and sensitivity in these discussions. And while I realize that you’ve been through a lot yourself – and am deeply sorry for it – I get the feeling that you feel like you’re personally responsible to warn people about potential abuses. I can see why you’d feel that way, but I’m not sure that repeatedly posting about women being sexually abused and humiliated is the best way to proceed.

    Hope that makes some sense to you.

  147. @ May:
    As well I might add, are we supposed to believe something like that just because Johnny Mac said it? I know I have been out of these circles for a while, but even in my prime I wouldn’t have swallowed something this bulky.

  148. @ Marie2:
    “Groupthink is a type of thought within a deeply cohesive in-group whose members try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. It is a second potential negative consequence of group cohesion.

    Irving Janis studied a number of American Foreign policy ‘disasters’ such as failure to anticipate the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (1941); the Bay of Pigs fiasco (1961) when the US administration sought to overthrow Cuban Government of Fidel Castro; and the prosecution of the Vietnam War (1964–67) by President Lyndon Johnson. He concluded that in each of these cases, the decisions were made largely due to the cohesive nature of the committees which made them. Moreover, that cohesiveness prevented contradictory views from being expressed and subsequently evaluated. As defined by Janis, “A mode of thinking that people engage in when they are deeply involved in a cohesive in-group, when the members’ strivings for unanimity override their motivation to realistically appraise alternative courses of action”.[1].”

  149. @ Marie2:
    “Individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent thinking are lost in the pursuit of group cohesiveness, as are the advantages of reasonable balance in choice and thought that might normally be obtained by making decisions as a group.[citation needed] During groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking. A variety of motives for this may exist such as a desire to avoid being seen as foolish, or a desire to avoid embarrassing or angering other members of the group. Groupthink may cause groups to make hasty, irrational decisions, where individual doubts are set aside, for fear of upsetting the group’s balance. The term is frequently used pejoratively, in hindsight. Additionally, it is difficult to assess the quality of decision making in terms of outcomes all the time, but one can almost always evaluate the quality of the decision-making process.

    [1] Turner, M. E.; Pratkanis, A. R. (1998). “Twenty-five years of groupthink theory and research: lessons from the evaluation of a theory”. Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes 73: 105–115. doi:10.1006/obhd.1998.2756.

    full article – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

  150. @ numo:

    Hi Numo,

    Thank you so much for your clarification post. I think that what you and Sara have pointed out is quite important.

    Maybe someone could offer to write an additional summary of all of the history that has gone before us, for any newcomers? With links to the different stories? I know that there are many links here at this page, to the right….Just wonder if someone could make an index page somehow, or even contact Jim at Refuge and offer to host the stories that he had posted.

    I want to be sensitive to all. At the same time I agree that the over-moderation at SGM Survivors has just become too much – someone decided that I was in great need of counseling from a certain celebrity counselor, and that person was a long term poster there, respected by many, and the attacks got to be too much.

    Grace and Peace to all,
    Marie2

  151. @ numo:

    Well stated numo. I believe that certain topics can be discussed openly and referenced, but believe that such discussion can occur without engaging in hyperbole.

    But more importantly, I want to offer sincere gratitude and encouragement to the Deebs, who I am certain never thought TWW would garner the traffic and attention it has since they began this wonderful place (in fuzzy bathrobes, Star Trek t-shirts, and with a bag of Cheetos, IIRC). 🙂

    You are so appreciated! It’s hard to express that in words alone.

    And I do worry for you ladies both – the stress of trolls, threats of litigation and worse (you’ve obliquely mentioned much worse, alas), and good old moderating have to difficult. And yet you’ve continued to take on the burdens, with good cheer and with excellent analysis on each new post.

    Again, I feel nothing but gratitude for what you all have created here, as well as for The Guy Behind The Curtain, too.

  152. @ Marie2:

    Marie, with regards to SGM, I’d recommend going to the Survivors blog, linked here on TWW, and taking a look at the poster Jen’s timeline. I believe she updated it last week to reflect the Morales trial and TGC events.

  153. Lisa wrote:

    Does it not seem bizarre that the very crew calling TT antinomian are the same men DEFENDING THE LAWBREAKERS? Is it just me? How can they accuse Tullian of advocating a no-law necessary/hence anything goes Christian life when they protect and defend “Christian ” pastor/leader/Demi-gods who AT THE VERY LEAST subverted laws to keep criminal behavior out of public view/the reach of SECULAR law??! Oh wait, maybe they only have to uphold the laws that keep the little people in line. Now, to claim it is really onlu about a doctrinal disagreement is a sick shell game meant to distract the unwashed while the dust settles. Ole Abe said,”you can fool some of the people some of the time…” I think time is running out. And on the final day, God will not be mocked.

    Yes, indeed. You have put your finger on precisely what is going on in this whole mess.

  154. dee wrote:

    @ Lisa:
    These guys would claim that Mahaney did not break any laws and until it is proven that he did so, they will continue to assume his innocence. The way I look at it Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are still viewed as innocent in the eyes of the law as well.

    You know what I thought when I read this? I remembered, (about a millenia or two ago) watching the old Johnny Carson Tonight show out of New York City. One of Johnny’s guests of the evening was lawyer F. Lee Bailey, & the subject was about (not surprisingly) the laws of the USA, and Johnny asked Bailey something I don’t recall, but he used the phrase “found innocent in the eyes of the law”, & Bailey interrupted him, exclaiming, “No! Not ‘innocent’!! No one is ever found legally innocent!! In court, a person is found ‘guilty’ or ‘not guilty’. ‘Not guilty’ is simply a legal pronouncement that there isn’t enough proof to find punish the person. ‘Innocent’ is a moral judment, and the law leaves the determination of innocence where it belongs–in the hands of God”.
    It was mindblowing! There I sat, suddenly understanding something I had never seen before: You can be found “not guilty’ even if everybody (& his grandmother) knows perfectly well that you are as guilty as (forgive me) as guilty as hell.
    In other words: the CJ supporters are going outside of the law & supporting someone who is not now–& NOT EVER–going to be legally innocent. Never. Because the law doesn’t do that. It leaves it to God. And if F. Lee Bailey, for pete’s sake, understands that, why in the name of all that is holy don’t a bunch of preachers understand it? It is, after all, kinda what the clergy is supposedly trained to understand.

    Just saying……

  155. elastigirl wrote:

    @ dee:

    “No name calling to one another or even to those with whom you disagree. We need to take it up a notch”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    I understand. but can “one-eyed-one-horned-flying-purple-people-eaters” be my all-purpose word? would you like to hear what is many notches below?

    I was wondering about “bluidy eejit”. (I tend to get more than a little Scots-Irish when provoked; its genetic, you see).

  156. Eagle wrote:

    @ numo:

    Numo…

    I want people to remember what CJ Mahaney did to his pregnant wife and how he boasted of it. Why? Because a real man would never do such a thing. A real man would never think of doing such a thing. And I find it to be the height of hypocrisy to talk about male authority and abuse it in that manner. It’s sick, it’s garbage. I want people to remember Mahaney by how he treated and boasted about his wife. It speaks volumes about his lack of character.

    Amen.

  157. @ Rafiki:

    Hi Rafiki!
    I’m well aware of the time line website. I think it was posted here already. I’ll bookmark it.

    As to the SGM website, I’m sorry but it’s too much of a triggerfest for me right now. Don’t want to say much more than people pretty much ganged up on me when I tried to tell my story. Not a safe place for me.

    Kudos to the Deebs for making this site a safe place for everyone.

  158. TW wrote:

    @ gus:
    I have removed the comment in question.

    I’m only reading this much later, I don’t know which comment this refers to. I don’t think, it’s any of mine – they’re still here, all of them. If you are referring to Eagle’s post, I was not referring to that in my comment.

    I posted at this comment:

    An Attorney wrote:

    I think that to be first should require a legitimate comment on the subject matter of the blogger’s post

    I hear you, dear friend. Tell that to our less discerning friends, like Eagle and Marie. They could certainly benefit from your fatherly concern and gospelly advice. 😉

    Actually, I was not complaining about anything that Marie2 or Eagle had written, it was all just a little bit of light-hearted fun, after all, Eagle and Marie have been known to be among the “first!”-commenters, and I have been thwarted twice (twice!!) by Marie. The indignity of it! 😉

    Actually, I’m a bit in two minds about the new policy: I agree that for new readers some of the comments could be off-putting, and also that they could trigger unpleasant memories, I also agree with Nick B.’s point that defense lawyers might get an argument about powerful clergy not getting a fair hearing in a hateful environment, which would allow them to get away with it.

    OTOH, Eagle’s point about CJM’s, let’s call them “marital indiscretions”, is very powerful: what kind of husband does that to his wife? what kind of human then goes on to brag about it? what kind of “pastor” brags about it in a “church” setting? who brags about their own infamous behaviour?

    I think the reason is simple: “See what I can get away with? See what I can do, that you, the sheep, would never even dream of doing? And I can get away with it. I can even get away with publicly joking about it.”

    It’s the sociopath who, with every success, notches up the risk a bit more, because even he can’t believe how easy and safe it is for him. Hence the chuckle. It’s the one thing where he betrays himself: because he cannot take a single thing he says seriously. No longer. And neither his audience: they have proved their gullibility for far too long.

  159. Marie2 wrote:

    @Not a safe place for me….Kudos to the Deebs for making this site a safe place for everyone.

    How strange you wouldn’t feel safe there Marie, within all that sweetness & light! 😉

  160. @ gus: I think the heart of the matter is about *how* something is stated, and that censorship has nothing to do with it.

  161. @ gus:
    Good comment. If I got a comment of mine in first, I’m pretty sure I would just say “Kool-aid!”

    But then I’d probably get sued by an “Attorney” 😉

    At the risk of pursuing a topic no one else seems interested in, but which to me stands like an elephant in the room, I want to emphasize that CJ Mahaney would not have shared that story if his wife had not approved. She was in on it. And I question the veracity of it.

    There are dozens of stories similar in nature to that story, but we’ve come to find out they were contrived. Staged. Used to further an agenda, to make an impression, to prop up the whole hierarchy.

    When will people begin to see how much Carolyn Mahaney was involved in all this? The scheming. The cover-ups. The lies and false impressions.

    So ok, you can assume this is all about CJ Mahaney, but I’m here to say his wife is equally culpable. He recently broke his sanctimonious silence. But she remains locked in hers, standoffish as always, knowing but pretending not to know, supporting her husband 100%.

    Complementarians might be willing to buy that being a woman gives her an excuse. Egalitarians, however, don’t buy that BS. That woman is not a victim!

  162. numo wrote:

    @ gus: I think the heart of the matter is about *how* something is stated, and that censorship has nothing to do with it.

    Agreed.

  163. @ Paula:

    I try not to sue people. I prefer to negotiate, mediate, counsel, etc. I have been a mediator for over 40 years and an attorney for only about 15.

  164. Yes@ Paula:

    Ty soooo much 4 posting about this issue. All that scripting and staging (in the urban environment, it’s called “fronting”) is horribly abusive to the many vulnerable folks in a congregation.

    Er um…. didn’t someone say something to the effect of, woe to you Pharisees for setting up impossible standards for people to follow, and that you don’t follow yourselves, so you all become disciples of the Devil?? Hmmmmmm. .. Who could that be, and where was it said? ?

    Not to be a total suck up, but I enjoy each and every one of your posts.

    Ty 4 being here and sharing ur thoughtful perspectives! !!

  165. @ An Attorney:
    Well that’s a huge relief because ever since you started calling me on my use of Kool-aid, suggesting instead I say Kook-aid so as not to disparage the “useful” (as you called it) brand of Kool-aid, I thought it was tongue-in-cheek. But after this comment, which sounds serious and defensive, I’m not so sure…

  166. @ Marie2:
    As Mark Twain said, “I can live for two weeks on one good compliment.” Thank you, friend. I’m glad you’re here!

  167. Paula wrote:

    Complementarians might be willing to buy that being a woman gives her an excuse. Egalitarians, however, don’t buy that BS. That woman is not a victim!

    I am no authority at all on Carolyn Mahaney. Nothing I say here pertains specifically to her. But as to the issue of whether someone may be either a victim or co-conspirator, I think that one can be both at the same time. If you play with a snake you stand a good chance of getting snake-bit.

  168. @ Paula:

    I am serious about not suing people. I hate going to court and try to avoid it like the plague. You can never predict how some judge will rule, and juries are really dangerous. I have had a case where we proved that one of the parties had lied repeatedly in court, but the judge just assumed that our party had lied as well, without any proof, though our party had some problems due to his choice of professional field, and gave the other party almost all they wanted, even after the perjury. Go figure.

    A lot of my comments are somewhat tongue in cheek. I rarely represent corporate interests unless they are defendants in an environmental matter and are not generally at fault for whatever the issue is. I do not do criminal law. Most of my work is for people who have difficulty paying an upfront fee, and so I generally accept a no-interest payment plan at an amount they can pay.

    My point is, why use “Kool-Aid” to refer to the Jonestown kind of thing, when the issue is accepting the sayings of a kook. So calling it Kook-Aid is a humorous way to point out the ridiculous nature of what some of these “leaders” get their followers to believe and do. Thus my comment. No approbation intended toward you.

  169. An Attorney wrote:

    My point is, why use “Kool-Aid” to refer to the Jonestown kind of thing, when the issue is accepting the sayings of a kook. So calling it Kook-Aid is a humorous way to point out the ridiculous nature of what some of these “leaders” get their followers to believe and do. Thus my comment. No approbation intended toward you.

    Why use it? Because “Drinking the Kool-Aid” has become known to mean “someone accepting an argument or philosophy wholeheartedly or blindly,” and since it applies to what we talk about here, it fits.

    Plus, it’s an expression that’s entered into the American lexicon whereas “drinking the kook-aid” has not.

    Yes, it may involve kooks. But “drinking the kool-aid” carries the intended meaning that’s widely recognized.

    I say potato you say potatoe. But I’d argue in this case, and within the context of the things we discuss here, “drinking the Kool-Aid” is more ro the point. And I’m certain Kraft foods is ‘kool’ with that, too.

    I’d be down with saying “kook” instead of “kool” if I thought it was a problem, or if it were somehow causing you to stumble. Words can be funny things.

    I remember having a neighbor who indoctrinated her children against Santa Claus, and while at my house near the holidays her kids flat out told my kids that “Santa was Satan rearranged.” But I don’t think you’re suggesting by saying “Kool-Aid” that I’m demoniziing the brand, or the drink, unless you think I may be secretly or subliminally encouraging people to break the 2nd Commandment whenever I insert the expression because if you rearrange “Kool-Aid” you get “Oak Idol.”

    If that is the case, I can assure you I (bow)have (down)no (to)such (oak)nefarious(idol) intentions (now)!

  170. @ numo:

    Numo I am 100% convinced that rape and domestic abuse is going to be one of the legacies of the Neo-Reformed. Now I wrtie as a guy and I don’t believe all sex is rape. But no means no, and if a woman says no. Then she means no. PERIOD.

  171. Nancy wrote:

    Paula wrote:
    Complementarians might be willing to buy that being a woman gives her an excuse. Egalitarians, however, don’t buy that BS. That woman is not a victim!

    I am no authority at all on Carolyn Mahaney. Nothing I say here pertains specifically to her. But as to the issue of whether someone may be either a victim or co-conspirator, I think that one can be both at the same time. If you play with a snake you stand a good chance of getting snake-bit.

    Yes, thank you. And here’s the thing…

    Put yourself in the position of, say, one of Jerry Sandusky’s victims. If you were the mother of one of his victims, how would you feel about is wife Dorothy? After his arrest, and finding out about him and that he even molested one of her adopted sons, she defended him and blamed the victims.

    I wonder how the SGM victims feel about Carolyn Mahaney? She’s followed him to Mark Dever’s church. She’s followed him to Louisville. She obviously supports her husband as has been reflected in the attitudes and actions of her children. Those are not the actions of someone who is horrified to have discovered what happened to the children of the families she served at CLC.

    Compare these women to Marcia Jo Griffeth. She married Nathaniel Morales. When she found out what he had done when he was arested she was horrified. Her reaction clearly demonstrated she never knew and was never complicit or enabled his activities. Rather, she divorced him and came all the way to Montgomery County with her sons, ready to testify against him.

    Everyone who knows Marcia Jo Griffeth believes she had nothing to do with Morales’ crimes and that she did nothing to cover up for him.

    The same can not be said for Dorothy Sandusky, who lives at home alone in State College with her shades drawn.

    Who believes Carolyn Mahaney has been shocked and disturbed upon finding out her brother knew about Nathaniel Morales but did nothing to report him to police? Who believes she didn’t know what her brother knew, or what the rest of the CLC staff knew?

    How do the women feel her, the mothers of the victims, who were told to look up for her as someone who cared about their lives and those of their families?

    And so far, what has been her public response? She’s published a book she wants you to buy having to do with being a beautiful woman of God. How nice.

  172. @ Eagle: consensual sex is just that; totally agree with you regarding whatever they want to call themselves and sexual violence (as well as other kinds of violence) against women.

  173. numo wrote:

    @ Eagle: consensual sex is just that; totally agree with you regarding whatever they want to call themselves and sexual violence (as well as other kinds of violence) against women.

    You’re absolutely right. Being married is no more a license for sexual violence than it is a license for any other kind of violence.

    And I firmly believe, by the bye, that we all (as a society) are way,way slow in realizing that a sexual assault is an act of violence, that it is NOT done for sexual reasons, but because of sadism and/or power-grubbing tendencies. These have no place in society in general. How much more*, then, should we refuse to accept them in the family of God?

    *The pauline phrasing is deliberate on my part.

  174. Tom Jones wrote:

    You are a disgrace to Grace.

    Galatians 5:21 tells us that people that cause strife, jealousy, envy, dissension, factions, WILL NOT enter the Kingdom of God.

    This blog is straight from the pit.

    I smelled sulfur when I logged on.

    You have really gotta stop sniffing yourself. It’ll make your brain go mushy like oatmeal……Oh, wait…..

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