Why Some Christians Should Share the Blame for Those Leaving the Faith

“I bet you've seen the fundamentalist bumper sticker that says, "God said it! I believe it! That settles it!" It must be a typo because what the driver really means is, "I said it! God believes it! That settles it!”  ― Robert M. Price link

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=39533&picture=cross&large=1Cross

 

Back in 2008, John Piper wrote a post called 20 Reasons Why I Don't Take Potshots at Fundamentalists. I believe that he wrote this because he father was a fundamentalist.

Here are a few of the reasons.

1. They are humble and respectful and courteous and even funny (the ones I've met).
2. They believe in truth.
3. They believe that truth really matters.
4. They believe that the Bible is true, all of it.
5. They know that the Bible calls for some kind of separation from the world.
6. They have backbone and are not prone to compromise principle.
7. They put obedience to Jesus above the approval of man (even though they fall short, like others).
12. They resist trendiness.

This sounds all well and good. However, I seriously disagree with John Piper for an important reason. Fundamentalists insist on a strict adherence to both rules and a wooden "literal" interpretation of the Bible. This rigid persistence has driven people away from the faith.

Which brings me to my next point. Piper claims that fundamentalists believe in the truth.™ Which truth? The one which says female teens should not go to college or the one which says a teen girl who is raped ought to apologize to the congregation for getting pregnant? Funny, he does not talk about these fundamentalist truths.™ Just how does Piper define "truth." Or is his truth just some version of Stephen Colbert's "truthiness."

"truth that comes from the gut, not books"

Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith.

Despite claims to the contrary, I believe that Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith. Some Christians studiously ignore the fact that their wretched behavior, coupled with absolute certainty that they are "good Christians," can lead to some people finding Christians among the most unattractive individuals on the face of the planet. To quote Mahatma Gandhi:

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

Of course, Tim Challies does not like this quote, because, well, Gandhi obviously does not like the real Jesus Christ.

Whatever Jesus Gandhi liked was certainly not the Jesus of the Bible. Why then should we care if we do not attain to this falsified version of Jesus?

Sadly, Challies lumps Gandhi in with the Pharisees of Jesus' day, energetically ignoring that perhaps, Challies, along with many others, could also wear the Pharisee badge. He also does not consider, even momentarily, the possibility that Gandhi or anyone else outside of the faith, could offer some valid critique of today's Christians.

 Jesus reserved the harshest of words for the religious elite, those who declared that they were holy, that they understood the nature of God, that they had achieved some kind of enlightenment. Jesus had no love for such people. It was such people who received the sharpest of his rebukes and the most brutal of his “Woes!” They were the whitewashed tombs, the broods of vipers, the blind guides.

I do not look to the Neo-Calvinists as the only examples of those who drive people away. Christians of all stripes seem content to ignore that their very actions and harshness can cause people to exit the faith. Did you know that many of the Nones (those declaring themselves unaffiliated with any religious groups) are still people of faith. We wrote a post on this subject here.

Christian™ excuses

Unfortunately, many Christians appear utterly unable to understand that we have poorly represented the true Gospel to the world. Instead Christians are most willing to shift the blame onto everyone else on the planet except ourselves.

Here are the excuses that I personally have heard.

They just want to sin. (Ignoring the fact that Christians sin a whole bunch!)
They were not among the elect.
They were never Christians in the first place.
The are just making excuses.

This is the worst excuse of all.

They are using our 'mistakes' as an excuse. (Rarely do I hear the word "sin.")

It is incredible to me that Christians can overlook our sinful behavior towards the abused, our extreme devotion to secondary and tertiary doctrinal issues, along with our anger and arrogance. Instead we easily blame the recipient of our "observations." Do we really think that God gives us a pass in this area?

Today we present the story of Jonny Scaramanga who is a blogger and PhD student from England. He writes at Leaving Fundamentalism. His post is subtitled Examining Christian Fundamentalism in the UK. Here is what he says about himself at his blog.

Hey, I’m Jonny.

I grew up in the UK as a Christian fundamentalist. Most people think this kind of fundamentalism does not exist in Britain, or it is limited to certain ethnic communities, like black pentecostals. They have no idea what fundamentalists believe, and certainly no clue what it’s like to be one.

I know all of these things. I know what it is to be lied to for an entire childhood, and then to spend your 20s trying to separate fact from fiction while worrying that you could be condemning yourself to eternal damnation.

So I am writing a book about it. This blog is for the research I turn up along the way that doesn’t fit into my book.

We would like our readers to note that young earth creationism plays a part in his story. It is vital for those who believe in YEC to understand that a rigid insistence on this belief can lead to people leaving the faith. It behooves all of us to remember that we are to present the story of the Gospel, not a bunch of secondary dogma. 

We are not publishing this because he says something nice about us. To be honest, the two of us feel awkward in these circumstances. However, in this particular instance, we think it is important to understand the reason that he knows about us.

I also want to apologize to Jonny. We planned to post this a few months back but got distracted with all of the "goings on" over here. However, he graciously reminded us about his post. So, after slapping myself upside the head, I present his story. (Dee really liked learning about the "Loch Ness monster" proof!)

Leaving Fundamentalism by Jonny Scaramanga

Dear Wartburg Watch,

Thank you for existing. There are Christians who are too slow to stand up for the victims of abuse, and too reticent to speak out against the abusers. This blog has shown itself to be a powerful voice for justice, and I thank you for that. For reasons I will explain, some of the people I most want to reach won't listen to me. But they might listen to you.

Growing up, I called myself a 'Bible-believing Christian', with the implication, of course, that I was better than all those other Christians who didn't really believe the Bible. I went to a fundamentalist school that used the Accelerated Christian Education curriculum. I emerged in 1999, believing that it was against God's will for governments to provide healthcare for citizens, that science proved being gay was wrong, that a woman's true calling was obeying her husband in the home, and that the probable existence of the Loch Ness monster was one of many evidences that evolution was false. 

I call my blog "Leaving Fundamentalism", not "Leaving Christianity". I left Christianity entirely, but I am not out to insist that everyone should do the same. I think it's important that people leave fundamentalism because it's damaging. Unlike some of my fellow atheists, I don't think that's true of all Christianity.

Fundamentalism is a term that has almost lost all meaning now. At one extreme, it means anyone who believes in Biblical inerrancy, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, substitutionary atonement, and that Jesus's miracles literally happened. At the other, it is essentially a swear word that means little more than "terrorist". I guess when I talk about fundamentalism, I don't quite mean either of those things.

In 2012 I publicly outed myself as an atheist. That was something I felt the need to say. I wasn't telling anyone else to become an atheist. I was just admitting that I don't believe. It was a declaration of independence. This helped me to connect with an audience who, like me, had grown up as fundamentalists and found they no longer believed in a God anything like the one we were raised to fear.

It also meant that conservative Christians could choose to dismiss anything I said with a simple

"Of course he thinks that. He's an unbeliever."

That's what I mean by fundamentalist. A fundamentalist is someone who knows they're right, so they’re not open to the possibility of changing their mind, no matter what the evidence.

My grandad, who called himself a 'Christian agnostic', was fond of saying "You don't have a monopoly on the truth, you know." He pulled this one out whenever my mum tried to get him "Born Again." Fundamentalists are the people who think they have monopolies on the truth. Ironically, truth is the one commodity of which fundamentalists are bankrupt.

You know well as I do that certain 'Bible-believers' will find a way to dismiss you if they don't like what you have to say. They will denounce you as not a True Christian™. They will say you are rebellion, deceived by the devil, harming the body of Christ. They will brush you off as easily as they do me.

But not everyone is like that.

The fact that some people who will never listen doesn't mean we should stop talking. There was a time when I was someone who would never listen. Somehow, I got to the point where I was ready to ask some questions. I'm glad that ,when I did, I found writings by people who gave me more and better questions to ask. That's why we have to keep speaking out. You never know who's listening.

Some Christians don’t realise this abuse exists. They just don't see it, perhaps because it's not happening in their church, or because they are so conditioned to see it as normal. Maybe they’d prefer to pretend it doesn’t happen. Maybe they just don’t know. For those who don’t know, we can raise awareness. For those who see it as normal, we can help with the process of ‘strangifying’—making people in restricted religious environments realise what might be problematic.

Most of my campaigning is against schools that teach young-Earth creationism. Now, creationism is unhelpful in itself. If you believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old, entire fields of biology, cosmology, geology, linguistics, archaeology, and ancient history are closed to you. But, as Fred Clark has so beautifully argued, creationism is used to underwrite and “prove” an entire way of understanding Christianity that is inherently damaging.

Here’s how it works: The entire Bible, from start to finish, is God’s Final Word. It’s literally, historically, and scientifically True. And we’re going to prove this by proving, WITH SCIENCE, that the beginning(in the Bible) is a literal record of how the world came to be. Once we’ve proved this, you’ve got to accept all the rest of the Bible. Then, once you buy this, you have to accept that wives must obey and submit to their husbands, that gays are an abomination, that unbelievers are damned to an eternal hell… oh, and you need to put 10% of your income in our offering plate.

Of course, this is illogical. Even if Genesis chapters 1-3 are true, that says nothing about the rest of that book, let alone the other 65 that make up the Protestant Bible. And that’s another problem with raising children to accept creationism. By teaching them to accept fallacies as reasonable ways to think, it encourages them to think irrationally. It’s not just a bad education; it’s an actively destructive one.

I don’t think Christianity needs to be like that, and I don’t think education does either. Wartburg Watch, I feel like you get it. That doesn’t happen enough, so I’m profoundly grateful to you for existing.

Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 27:1-28:26 Hebrews 11:17-31 Psalm 111:1-10 Proverbs 27:15-16

Comments

Why Some Christians Should Share the Blame for Those Leaving the Faith — 304 Comments


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    Okay, so basically that entire list is false unless one redefined words like “humility”, “respect”, and “truth” I’m such a way as to deprive them of all meaning outside the narrow fundamentalist culture. The fourth contradicts the second and third, for starters, and number twelve ignores the historical fact that fundamentalism is itself a recent trend. And someone needs to remind Chailles that sometimes, people can genuinely understand something you care deeply about and just disagree with you.


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    Despite claims to the contrary, I believe that Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith.

    This is not new. The gospel writers had limited space to communicate works and teachings by Jesus that were so proliferous, “I suppose not even the whole world could contain the books that were written.” And yet they all choose to highlight over and over again how Jesus reprimanded the religious leaders sharply. Sadly, we see the same things today.


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    Well said Jonny Scaramanga. Deb and Dee, thank you for this post.


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    I would join in this conversation, but I break out in hives when I think about some of the fundamentalist mess I have death with, and I don’t want to take an antihistamine for the hives because it makes me sleepy. I don’t want to be sleepy because I want to go to Costco and forget it all, and I don’t drive well in an antihistamine fog.

    So all you fundamentalists out there who think only in literal terms, what do you make of that? Literal? Not literal? Some mixture of both?


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    In reading various posts on your blog, and today’s specifically, you really should become familiar with the blogs at ChurchandCulture.org, and the latest book by its author, “The Rise of the Nones: Understanding and Reaching the Religiously Unaffiliated.” Many shared sentiments.


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    In fact, there’s a whole chapter in the book on one of the main reasons the Nones are rising, and it has to do with “lawyers, guns and money” – meaning Christian involvement in power/politics, mean spiritedness by Christians toward non-Christians, and materialism and greed at the televangelist and megachurch pastor levels. All to say, you might find it an interesting read.


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    Thank you for sharing honestly. Your story has reminded me of the need to be present, be engaged and really listen — without an agenda — to others’ spiritual views. One of the biggest turnoffs anywhere for anything is that you are really not being heard.

    Thank you for the reminder!


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    Have a friend and his wife who were literally run off a church staff because they were bringing ” undesirables” into the church. ( non- denomination church)
    He could not find another job afterwards in the Christian ministry.
    He is now in another profession he really enjoys.
    He is a follower of Christ. As is his wife. They refuse to call themselves Christians, and only hold services within their home for their family alone. Will he witness? Yes, but as he says, the church today is dead and is killing the followers of Christ.


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    “Fundamentalists” encapsulate many Christians including myself based on the 5 fundamentals of the faith. It many ways, it’s quite a broad tent – but the term has such a perjorative sense that there are many Christians I would classify as “fundamentalists,” who think that they aren’t.

    THE FIVE BASIC DOCTRINES

    1. The Trinity: God is one “What” and three “Whos” with each “Who” possessing all the attributes of Deity and personality.

    2. The Person of Jesus Christ: Jesus is 100% God and 100% man for all eternity.

    3. The Second Coming: Jesus Christ is coming bodily to earth to rule and judge.

    4. Salvation: It is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    5. The Scripture: It is entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life.

    Now I only owned 1 leisure suit (long since left the world of clothing,) and have never used hair-gel. I own exactly 1 suit ( 20 years old) and 1 tie. Unless there’s a funeral or a very special wedding, it never sees the light of day. I abandoned the KJV as my favored version back in the 70s. I refused to attend a church where the pastor has no deacons nor elders. Even in very strict churches, these days women wear pants and everybody goes to the movies. It appears a lot of fundamentalist think a little wine is ok. ( I like the free samples at Fresh Market.) The Independent Baptist fundamentalists are mostly Arminians in theology.

    But if holding to the 5 basic doctrines/fundamentals of the faith defines one as a “fundamentalist,” then I am staunchly one.

    As for Jonny, did he leave the faith because there are people, like me, who hold to a young Earth? Or did he leave the faith for a variety of conscious and unconscious reasons.
    *
    There’s got to be more reasons in play then the young Earth adherents because we are a really, really tiny percentage of the population. Are we even 1/2 a percent? I doubt it’s that high.
    So Jonny now proclaims himself to be an atheist. Did he have a choice or was it forced upon him. Did the “fundamentalist” force him to abandon the faith or did he choose too? I’m thinking nobody held a gun to his head (metaphorically speaking.)
    *
    I hope he comes back; I see life as pretty desperate without Jesus Christ as your hope.


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    Challies’ arrogance as demonstrated in his comment on Ghandhi is, as always, stupefying.

    Dee and Deb, thank you for posting the incredible article on GRACE from the Prospect. A must-read.


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    This is a great post, there are two things that need to be said. I firmly believe that the lines between evangelical and fundamentalist have been blurred in the last few years. John Piper in my book is a fundamentalist and he’s pushed his fundamentalism in churches and organizations that really were milder than they are today. Fundamentalism serves no purpose other than to hurt, destroy and kill. And I cringe when I see this fundamentalism play out in SGM, Acts 29, Mars Hill, and other sects. Secondly I also would suggest that many Christians are blind to fundamentalism because they see if so often, that it becomes second nature. When you are in fundamentalism I think many people don’t believe they are fundamentalists. It goes along with the territory which is why I think many are oblivious to it. Some things like the gender roles being forced today are easy to spot and see. This is why many Evangelical Free Churches have taken such a dark turn.


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    One more point I would like to add. I thank the writer for the post. I empathize given my own journey. I left, ranted and raved about fundamentalism here in Washington, D.C. I’ve know people who walked away just burned out and fried. And I must also say that I don’t understand why I am not an atheist today either. I’ve contemplated, asked myself and yet I am still puzzled. In my story which will be told one day I had a member of a Sovereign Grace church who did something truly evil. My name is all I have…and it’s the most important thing I have. What this guy did was unthinkable and he did it while boasting about how he was “in the healthiest church” he has known, boasted of his sanctification, and talked about how important it was to follow scripture. And of course in the end he didn’t follow any of it while causing great harm in the process.


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    the reason i dont take potshots at fundamentalists—its not challenging enuf


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    “Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith.”

    Sorry I didn’t get much farther than this thought: Jesus makes specific statements that none will be snatched out of His hand. If this is the case how can one person drive another away from the faith when it is God Himself that is keeping said person in the faith? Maybe I’m answering my own question.


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    As I’ve said before, the YECs drove me away from christianity. Not the YEC part because you are free to be as stupid as you want; but the part where they would repeat lie after lie about the science and the scientists. that was a deal breaker for me.

    What do I believe now? Not sure, still working on it.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    Not the YEC part because you are free to be as stupid as you want; but the part where they would repeat lie after lie about the science and the scientists.

    Like I said, items two and three on Piper’s list contradict item 4 as fundies usually interpret it. Unless you decide the definition of truth doesn’t include little things like accurate facts.


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    On the subject of not attacking fundamentalists, that reminds me of a quote by the late Sir Edward Heath, from when he was (Conservative) Prime Minister:

    I never attack the Labour Party – they do it so well themselves.

    The “are you the Judean Peoples’ Front?” scene is a good reminder that The Life of Brian is not just a satire on organised religion.


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    Jonny Scaramanga,
    Thank you for posting. I agree with you. I believe all that you said is why my brother is an atheist today. Funny though, I actually think of him as a fundamentalist atheist, he sounds like the preachers we grew up with in the Baptist school, but he is actually a much more loving and lovable guy than he ever was as a Christian and that of the Calvinist persuasion. After all of my experiencing everything he did and more and the hands of fundamentalists I am surprised that I only spent 13 years after high school rejecting a god. But for 23 years now I have not been able to deny God. I still though have read a lot of what my brother sends me. I actually have Richard Dawkins iPad version of the Magic of Reality. I however still keep waiting for the explanations that my brother and atheist writers give for my God experiences to ring true with me. I know, I know, that it takes more than experience to have faith in something, all religions and beliefs have real experiences, but still…I can’t help it, I know that my brother has never experienced what I have now and it’s not fundamentalism or religion. Maybe when or if he does and then can still explain his own experience as only scientific and biological impulses… IDK…even if they are just impulses I don’t see why that would prove away that a God might have created the biology to use as a means to communicate with me.
    I just know an awful lot of our Christian religion is run by people who don’t even really believe it or know it themselves in their hearts. If they did, they would be like Christ who was about loving people, not controlling people.
    I am not calling you fundamentalist like I call some atheists. But I told my brother that he was scaring me like the Religious fundamentalists who wouldn’t let us learn the theory of evolution when he agree with some atheist leaders that people should be banned from telling their kids about the God that they have experienced.


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    As a Christian for 50 years, with many years of ministry, I began my exit from the faith due the treatment I received from other Christians – primarily those who felt themselves so important that they could use others for their own elevation in work and ministry.

    No, I am not bitter, or hurt, etc. I simply saw that the people who talk most about God and the Bible, are desperate to feel important, and they abuse people in the process. In the long run, those religious people are no better than the so-called heathen. (I’ve been back-stabbed far worse by Christians than I ever have been by non-believers.)

    For me, there is no turning back. I’ve long since left the faith, and find it logically impossible to believe those stories again. I do wonder if I would have ever come to this place if it hadn’t been for self-righteous, egotistical, self-important, selfish Christians.


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    Hey Johnny!

    *waves from southern England* Great to have you hear & read your post.

    Please ignore Seneca’s undercurrents of blame towards you – that really you want to sin so you’re hiding it behind apparently intellectual/other reasons – he’s a little bit simple that way in that he’s unable to broaden his horizons past what he can imagine himself doing. We’re not all like that, but he can’t grasp this.

    Anyway, welcome.


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    Hey, maybe you guys should do a series of posts on the Organic/House church movement. For me it seems that it’s this kind of elephant in the room, for mainline Christianity. Not many people are talking about it, but it seems to be growing. There’s a lot misconceptions about what it means to do church in this way, and I think it could be an interesting subject to explore. I can even help with an international point of view, but I would love to see your take on the american version of house church.


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    In other news, with the last match of any consequence (Sunderland vs West Brom) being played out this evening, the English Premier League final stands are thus:

    Champions: Manchester City
    Also into the GiveUsYerMoney_Cup Champions’ League: Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal
    Europa League: Everton and Hull (the latter as FA Cup finalists)
    Relegated: Norwich, Fulham and Cardiff

    There remains one final block of EPL fixtures this Sunday, but (unusually) they cannot change any of the above this year. This is in contrast to what happened two years ago when Man City won the title on goal difference from Manutd with more or less literally the last kick of the season; and there is usually at least one European place and/or relegation tussle decided on the last day of the season.

    I hope this is helpful.


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    Patti wrote:

    Maybe when or if he does and then can still explain his own experience as only scientific and biological impulses… IDK…even if they are just impulses I don’t see why that would prove away that a God might have created the biology to use as a means to communicate with me.

    Saying that God may have created biology to use as a means to communicate, would be a religious statement but it would not get very far with someone using scientific reasoning because one must not reason teleologically in that manner in thinking scientifically. So if your brother rejects that, don’t worry.

    But I am writing this because I have just read something really good on exactly this subject. I have a book of sermons (yes sermons) by C S Lewis and one of them is called “Transposition.” In it he deals with the fact that all humans have is our brains (neural pathways) and the only way our brains can respond to anything is the same way they already respond to material things. How then can one say that this or that is from God when in fact it uses the very same neural pathways in the very same manner, and the very same English language words which already have specific meanings and the very same emotions which we have already identified as meaning something else other than God. And furthermore, all we know is the world as we already know it, so how can God reveal anything, much less Himself, to us when we have no prior experience with which to understand it and all we have to work with is what we already know and that is material and limited to the same world which we already experience.

    In other words, all our ways of understanding are already being utilized for something else, and where does that leave us in relation to the God thing? And then he goes on to explain how one might in fact say that one experiences God, or understands some of the things about God, anyhow, using illustrations to do so.

    Lewis is sometimes slow reading, and sometimes one has to go back over what he says to be sure that it was understood, and he uses the language a little differently, but he is a gold mine on this issue.

    On the back of the book a New York Times Book Review put it this way. ” C. S. Lewis is the ideal persuader for the half-convinced, for the good man who would like to be a Christian but finds his intellect getting in the way.”


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    @ Nancy:

    Interesting comment, Nancy. It reminds me of a TV documentary here some years ago in which a clinician of I forget precisely which discipline described some outcomes of his research into religious experiences. He said, we know they happen in the brain, because we can re-create them by stimulating it. Which, of course, indicates that religious experiences are like any other human experience – we can reproduce sight, hearing and the other senses by stimulating the brain too. We process them with our brains – obviously.


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    @ Rob:

    At one point in my life, the VietNam era actually, and while I was up to my elbows in human suffering and disasters, and while all the church could do was hold hands and sing kume-by-ya, I shook my fist in the face of God and informed Him that I totally did not care about “God is love” and that he would have to worry about His own emotions, but if He was not going to do anything about anything then I had no choice but to walk away and not look back. Basically “If You are not going to do anything about anything, then I will do what I can without You, but You stay away from me.”

    I grieved the loss of faith, or whatever it was I ever thought I believed, but kume-by-ya was worthless and as far as I could tell God was helpless or disinterested but in any case I/we were in this alone and had best just get over it and move on. And i did this with lots of reasons and lots of observations and lots of fairly good arguments.

    After a few years of that, and for what reason I know not, and why then and not before or never, He came and got me. There is no other way to say it. Amazing. Like the parable of the shepherd and the lost sheep. It took me a couple of years from there to work out some issues, but there it was. I have no description, no explanation, no intervening event, no nothing to explain it or even describe it The closest description would be like what the psych people call an ah-hah moment.

    He does that sort of thing. Said He did and sure enough. I am not preaching at you, and I am not humming Just As I Am in the background, but with your history I thought you were somebody I could tell this story to. Thanks for listening. I am sorry you got hurt like that.


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    @ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
    Just so we’re on the same page, Seneca, I’m not sure how many people would define “fundamentalist” as “someone who holds to the fundamentals of the faith” (I left off the number, because “the fundamentals” change depending on who you talk to – no joke, I knew two people who separated from each other because one thought that the virgin birth should be a fundamental, while the other one thought the virgin birth should be subsumed under the fundamental of “inerrancy”). I attended a couple of SBC seminaries, and they certainly didn’t interpret “fundamentalist” that way. I think probably the ideas of rigid adherence to received tradition rather than principles of character combined with seperationism is probably closer to what most people mean by “fundamentalist”.


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    Eagle wrote:

    I firmly believe that the lines between evangelical and fundamentalist have been blurred in the last few years

    Absolutely agree. And don’t leave IX Marks off the list!


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Yes. And also there is the attitude of “here I stand and too bad about you.” A sort of callous smugness.


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    @Eagle – I look forward to hearing your story one day. I am also amazed that I’m not an athiest as well, although I NEVER thought I would even come close to that.
    @Nancy – I don’t feel like I’m shaking my fist at God, but as I like to say, “He and I are having some serious conversation”, and until I get my answer or it’s somehow resolved, I’m not sure where my faith is at.


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    I see much of this as being linked. Let’s be honest…evangelcialism is a mess. You have seeker movements, mega churches built around strong personality figures, Hyper-Calvinism and secondary issues being pushed down people’s throats. You have organizations like Crusade pushing John Piper (When will they ever have Greg Boyd at the Minneapolis Christmas Conference?) who in turn pushes this Neo-Calvinism/Puritan crap. Le’ts be honest and clear about one things…

    Jonathan Edwards is not that great. He was a slaver holder and I think he should be more damned for owning slaves as a preacher than Thomas Jefferson did as a slave holder.


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    As far as the things people say about folks who leave the church, I have to say that people at CLC never said anything bad about me when I left there. I did go to another church, and friends could see that I was different because I could actually be myself, and at least one commented that they liked it.

    But my former pastor from another church used some of the excuses that were listed in the beginning of the post. Especially , “Well, they weren’t really Christians to begin with.” When he and I were having our last conversation when he asked me to look around for other churches, I asked him, or rather yelled at him, “What are you going to say about ME when I leave?”


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    Deebs-

    There is a story that I can’t find, and I hope you familar with and can help me. I think it would speak volumes on the corruption of Mark Dever, CJ Mahaney, John Piper and Mark Driscoll.

    Years ago I read a story about unity and God at work. It was about a young Charles Spurgeon. The pastor of a nearby church was losing members to Spurgeon’s church, and after hearing Spurgeon preach he decided to close the church he led and encourage the congreagtion to join Charles Spurgeons.

    I read it in a devotional years ago, and I find it rich with irony becuase despite the message can you imagine Makr Dever, Mark Driscoll, or CJ Mahaney stepping aside and closing their “church” if God was at work? Hell no. Have you heard of that story and can you find and publish it?


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    Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:

    here’s got to be more reasons in play then the young Earth adherents because we are a really, really tiny percentage of the populatio

    You may be a small percent of the population but many of your ilk dominate churches in which the choice is “believe this” or you may not be a Christian. Yes, Jimmy, it is people like you who drive people out of the faith.


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      __

    “You Lost Me”?

    hmmm…

    “Pastors, church leaders, and parents have failed to equip young people to live ‘in but not of’ the world…”

    huh?

    “This has serious long-term consequences…”

    What?

    Q. “Who is helping and equipping young people to develop and maintain a vibrant faith that they may embrace and maintain over a lifetime?”

    Q. “Who is enabling them to have a voice for their generation?”

    Q. “Who is providing young people with an solid example to follow?”

    Discerning minds wish to know…

    Sopy
    ___
    Reference:
    http://www.amazon.com/You-Lost-Me-Christians-Rethinking/dp/0801013143
    Additional : http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2011/09/29/why-are-christians-leaving-the-church-turns-out-its-the-churches-fault/

    ;~)


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    @ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
    Just so we’re on the same page, Seneca, I’m not sure how many people would define “fundamentalist” as “someone who holds to the fundamentals of the faith” (I left off the number, because “the fundamentals” change depending on who you talk to – no joke, I knew two people who separated from each other because one thought that the virgin birth should be a fundamental, while the other one thought the virgin birth should be subsumed under the fundamental of “inerrancy”). I attended a couple of SBC seminaries, and they certainly didn’t interpret “fundamentalist” that way. I think probably the ideas of rigid adherence to received tradition rather than principles of character combined with seperationism is probably closer to what most people mean by “fundamentalist”.

    Yeah, I don’t think people perceive “fundamentalists” as those who simply hold to the 5 fundamentals. I think there is actually a lot of freedom in minor doctrines for those who hold to the 5 fundamentals.


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    Seneca

    Bye, bye.


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    I have a hard time understanding what I hear as anger or resentment in the voices of those ‘driven out of the faith’. If you now believe all the faith stuff is a myth, you should be delighted to be out of it. You are an adult with the ability to seek God via the Bible or any other avenue. Do your research, make your decision but stop blaming others for your choice.

    Also for those who are so ready to attach Christians that accept any list of doctrines. Is there anything that anyone can say they believe is true? Or is your view that in order to not drive people away, Christians need to say any and all beliefs are equally valid?

    Just wondering. Actually the church I currently attend is a little wrack-a-doodle for my taste, but I stay there by my choice and if I leave it will be by my choice. I have just learned to go to a mental happy place when YEC and such come up.


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    Is Jonny Scaramanga related to Url Scaramanga, the pen name of various CT editors from the Out of Ur blog? Just wondering.


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    dee wrote:

    Seneca

    Bye, bye.

    Not only that, Seneca/Jimmy/whatever is a type specimen of the subject of Jonny’s posting and Dee’s commentary.


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    Today we present the story of Jonny Scaramanga who is a blogger and PhD student from England. He writes at Leaving Fundamentalism.

    Dee, you sound a bit like Rod Serling:
    “Presented… for your edification… in The Twilight Zone.”


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    Eagle wrote:

    Jonathan Edwards is not that great. He was a slaver holder and I think he should be more damned for owning slaves as a preacher than Thomas Jefferson did as a slave holder.

    *Wow.* I learned something today. It’s interesting when you look up Jonathan Edwards slave owner on Google, the first articles are items from the Gospel Coalition and fellow travelers trying to explain why you can still follow Edwards even though he was a slave owner. Of course, they co-opt Thabiti Anyabwile to put forward this point of view. The GC people have to know this is problematic. Yale, which Edwards led during his life, knows it’s problematic and points out that in colonial America, it was hard to escape the economic impact of slavery. Moreover, a portion of Yale’s endowment was derived from slave ownership. At least Yale is more honest, IMHO.

    It should be noted that Edwards’ son, Jonathan Edwards Jr., was an abolitionist when he became an adult and wrote on the subject at a time when it was basically only Quakers and radicals who supported abolition. So he didn’t follow in daddy’s footsteps.


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    Addison wrote:

    ou really should become familiar with the blogs at ChurchandCulture.org, and the latest book by its author, “The Rise of the Nones: Understanding and Reaching the Religiously Unaffiliated.

    Thank you for these excellent suggestions. Welcome!


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    @ Albuquerque Blue:
    Just trying to keep it real.


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    Andy wrote:

    Jesus makes specific statements that none will be snatched out of His hand. If this is the case how can one person drive another away from the faith when it is God Himself that is keeping said person in the faith?

    So, no one ever drifts away? Or is it they were not Christians in the first place? Or does Go allow you a choice even after salvation?


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    And apparently, Dee, fundamentalists “love Mark Driscoll’s theology.”


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    nmgirl wrote:

    As I’ve said before, the YECs drove me away from christianity. Not the YEC part because you are free to be as stupid as you want; but the part where they would repeat lie after lie about the science and the scientists. that was a deal breaker for me.

    Thank you for saying this. I believe you and think there are many naive Christians who just don’t get it.


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    Anon wrote:

    fundamentalists “love Mark Driscoll’s theology.”

    I believe you should say it “fundamentalists looooooooooooove his theology.”


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    I always enjoyed listening to Johnny Scaramanga on the Fundamentally Flawed podcast.

    Johnny, if you’re reading this, whatever happened to Jim Gardner?


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    K.D. wrote:

    He is a follower of Christ. As is his wife. They refuse to call themselves Christians, and only hold services within their home for their family alone

    Yep-way to many stories like this.


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    Rob wrote:

    As a Christian for 50 years, with many years of ministry, I began my exit from the faith due the treatment I received from other Christians – primarily those who felt themselves so important that they could use others for their own elevation in work and ministry.
    No, I am not bitter, or hurt, etc. I simply saw that the people who talk most about God and the Bible, are desperate to feel important, and they abuse people in the process. In the long run, those religious people are no better than the so-called heathen. (I’ve been back-stabbed far worse by Christians than I ever have been by non-believers.)

    Wow! Thank you for sharing this with us. I am so, so sorry that this happened to you. I do not blame you for turning your back on the faith. There are waaaay too many “Christian” jerks out there.

    I am so grateful that you took the time to share your gut with us. If only more of us had ears to hear…


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Please ignore Seneca’s undercurrents of blame towards you – that really you want to sin so you’re hiding it behind apparently intellectual/other reasons – he’s a little bit simple that way in that he’s unable to broaden his horizons past what he can imagine himself doing. We’re not all like that, but he can’t grasp this.

    Seneca is back on ice.


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    Julia Mathias wrote:

    I can even help with an international point of view,

    We would love for youth write a post. Contact me: dee@thewartburgwatch.com


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    Kathryn wrote:

    Also for those who are so ready to attach Christians that accept any list of doctrines. Is there anything that anyone can say they believe is true? Or is your view that in order to not drive people away, Christians need to say any and all beliefs are equally valid?

    If you have read this blog over time, I think you might have a pretty darn good idea of what we believe. Now, it might not be one of your secondary doctrines but they are still “orthodox” none the less. And does that ever irritate our critics.
    Kathryn wrote:

    I have a hard time understanding what I hear as anger or resentment in the voices of those ‘driven out of the faith’

    I bet you do have a hard time. So do many other Christians. And that is why these folks leave.

    Kathryn wrote:

    If you now believe all the faith stuff is a myth, you should be delighted to be out of it. You are an adult with the ability to seek God via the Bible or any other avenue. Do your research, make your decision but stop blaming others for your choice.

    You truly do exhibit the typical answers of the self assured. Thank you for helping me make the point of this post.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dee, you sound a bit like Rod Serling:
    “Presented… for your edification… in The Twilight Zone.”

    I love Rod Serling. A true genius. That is real compliment.


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    @ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:

    Do you see what $40,000 of grad school debt buys you? 🙂 Critical thinking skills and discernment. CJ Mahaney should try it some time! Due to his lack of education and views on it I think my family’s German Shorthaired Pointer has more education than CJ. :-p


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    Deebs….that could be a good post for you. Jonathan Edwards being a slave holder and how the Neo-Cals re-write history.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Jonathan Edwards being a slave holder and how the Neo-Cals re-write history.

    Oh, they’ll start their same old garbage about slavery being misunderstood and how it really was okey dokey-ala Doug Wilson


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    Kathryn wrote:

    I have a hard time understanding what I hear as anger or resentment in the voices of those ‘driven out of the faith’.

    Let me suggest that this is because you have a listening problem and/or lack empathy. I was never abused, lied to, threatened, shamed, or castigated by anyone in the church I grew up in. Yet I somehow have no trouble understanding why those who were or who observed their church members doing the same to others would be angry and hurt. That’s because I listen and have the bare minimum empathy one would expect from a non-sociopath. Try listening instead of responding for a while. Or just keep going to your happy place when the dirty underbelly is exposed.


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    @ dee:
    They can’t handle shades of gray. Either Edwards was a brilliant preacher who God blessed (as proved by his success and fertility) or everything must be false. They can’t accept that he was a brilliant preacher, that sometimes even fatally flawed people enjoy lifelong good fortune with no ultimate comeuppance, and that a person can simultaneously do great things and horrific things. It doesn’t fit their childlike sense of justice.


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    Hmm…this touches close to home for me. As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I was raised in the church – A of G – and in a home that was in some ways, contradictory. Very religious, but wanting to present as very open and willing to listen. But it was always about winning the debate. Hmm….and that attitude is what has pushed me away from church and to the brink of losing my faith.

    Am I angry? D*mn straight! The religiously smug took what, from very tiny, was for me a beautiful relationship with a person – Jesus – and tried to control it, define it, and tell me I was ‘back-slidden’ if I didn’t believe all the doctrinal points. The arrogance is huge. The insistence of adherence to secondary doctrines – all or nothing – coupled with very coldly, abusive behavior by both the familial religious gurus and the people within the religious organizations known as churches are why 4 of my close family members are no longer Christians.

    Jonny said a couple of things that resonate deeply with me….

    …found they no longer believed in a God anything like the one we were raised to fear.

    I remember the first time I told someone that a god like the one they described did not deserve to be worshiped. I think they expected horns to sprout…they were spittin’ mad. But I still stand by that statement. It is one of the realizations that ‘saved’ my faith. That god – the one they describe that is the angry tyrant – the child abuser – he does not deserve to be worshiped. And I don’t. I worship the God who entered my room when I tired to kill myself and comforted me….and wouldn’t let me die. I worship the God that held my hand in the middle of the night when all the torments and fears from the years of abuse tried to overwhelm me.

    And I don’t expect anyone else to believe just because I do. It must be a very personal thing or it is nothing.

    Okay….I could go on for a bit, but Jonny said something else….

    A fundamentalist is someone who knows they’re right, so they’re not open to the possibility of changing their mind, no matter what the evidence.

    This is spot on. And this attitude is manifested in the beat-down of anyone who disagrees with their 5 points (or whatever). To those who think that someone who walks away from the church or from their faith must not have been a real Christian to begin with….this attitude….how easily would you hold on to your faith if the entire community that represented your faith told you you were deviant, back-slidden, rebellious and pushed you away if you didn’t agree with them on all secondary issues…and this was the thing you were raised in?

    We should never have to sublimate our very personality and our ability to think – to reason – to a collective known as ‘Church.’

    [[MOD:EDIT spelling per request]]


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    @ burnrnorton:

    Their thinking has few dimensions, sometimes only one, with two ends to it. And anything orthogonal to their thinking they cannot comprehend. Total package must be accepted or you are a heretic. It does not matter than millions of Christians in history and the present don’t buy their package.

    I have begun to call myself a “follower of Jesus” in lieu of “Christian”. Too many who consider themselves elect seem to be too busy wit doctrine to follow the crucified Christ, instead substituting the teachings of men.


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    y. Either Edwards was a brilliant preacher who God blessed (as proved by his success and fertility) or everything must be false.

    Great comment. Snorted at the fertility part!


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    An Attorney wrote:

    Total package must be accepted or you are a heretic. It does not matter than millions of Christians in history and the present don’t buy their package.

    Spot on. Bill calls it the “Ice Package” after Professor Ice who said in one sentence that ” ALL Christians believe in a young earth, global flood and pretrib/premil.”
    An Attorney wrote:

    I have begun to call myself a “follower of Jesus” in lieu of “Christian”. Too many who consider themselves elect seem to be too busy wit doctrine to follow the crucified Christ, instead substituting the teachings of men.
    Amen!


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    @ dee:

    Just curious – I was away from this thread for several hours and now suddenly Jimmy is on ice. Did he post something upthread that was deleted? Just wondering what caused the reincarceration.


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    @ burnrnorton:
    BTW, anyone who wants to know more about colonial and post colonial enslavement of Africans in the Americas might want to read Adam Hochschild’s “Bury the Chains”. It looks at the Anglo-American slave trade and abolition movements in particular, but the most powerful parts are the graphic portrayals of the atrocities committed against slaves throughout the Americas (the Carrie an sugar plantations were particularly hotrific). I knew the Gone With the Wind sepia toned nostalgia of genteel antebellum society was hogwash before but after . . . Anyone who’s read the book or slave narratives knows that it was SO MUCH WORSE than your worst imaginings.


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    @ Kathryn,

    I don’t think it’s a question of accepting and validating various beliefs so much as it is recognizing that your beliefs may or may not be my beliefs and vice versa. Once that’s done, parties can agree to disagree without hauling out the siege engines and trebuchet for Holy War.


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    Hester wrote:

    Did he post something upthread that was deleted?

    Up above by Seneca “j” Griggs I believe.


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    dee wrote:

    So, no one ever drifts away? Or is it they were not Christians in the first place? Or does Go allow you a choice even after salvation?

    First I think John 10:28-29 answers the question I asked but I think 1 John 2:19 answers the first and second part of your question, parable of the sower also, Philippians 1:6 says that He who begun a good work in you will perfect it. If you’ve been saved will He or won’t He complete His work? These are biblical questions with biblical answers are they not?


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    I’m a little agnostic, but my views about Christianity would align with the five fundamentals Seneca outlined about, and the YEC view still makes most sense to me.

    I’d ask that folks maybe be a little more charitable about discussing YEC.

    I mean, some of you are trying to be kind-hearted to atheists who say they left Jesus over YEC views, but I am tottering on the edge of, “do I stay or do I leave,” and I’m sympathetic to YEC. By bashing YEC to come across as accepting to anti-YEC atheists, you’re kind of pushing folks like me away at the same time.

    I’m not stupid or a liar, either. Someone above categorized every last YEC as being stupid or lying liars. We’re really not all alike.

    To tell my story yet again: I never really cared if other Christians were YEC or believed in something else, but I have been picked on and bashed for being YEC, by both Christians and Non Christians.

    I had one Christian friend who believed in theistic evolution and that the world was millions of years old, who kept trying to convert me to his view on that stuff. I couldn’t figure out why. I was happy to agree to disagree.

    Do Christians sometimes drive other Christians away from the faith or cause a huge faith crisis? Yes. That’s been one of my issues, among a few. But for me, it doesn’t have anything to do with YEC.


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    Addison wrote:

    mean spiritedness by Christians toward non-Christians,

    Some Non-Christians (I have in mind militant atheists) can be just as bad.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I think probably the ideas of rigid adherence to received tradition rather than principles of character combined with seperationism is probably closer to what most people mean by “fundamentalist”.

    Would that include excessive legalism, especially over grey areas, matters of conscience, and nit picking (eg, length of a man’s hair, length of a woman’s skirt, is watching TV evil?) I think the excessive legalism in fundamentalism is probably one thing that drives people away.

    As for Seneca’s 5 points. I think that’s the historic understanding, how fundamentalism got its start back in the 19th century?

    Fundamentalism started out with some basics, such as the virgin birth being true, but decades later, it had morphed to stuff like “listening to secular rock is sin.” That’s how I learned it, anyhow.

    I heard somewhere or read somewhere, and I can’t remember where, but one Christian guy (who was not a fundy) was talking with a Christian ex fundy, and Christian guy said something about, “Don’t fundamentalist churches teach from the book of Galatians?,” and the Ex said, “No. They pretend like it doesn’t exist.”

    The point to their conversation being, (as Galatians gets into), you cannot do good works to get save or stay saved.

    A lot of your fundamentalist churches apparently want the pew sitters to think they have to keep on earning salvation (by being good, avoiding sin) after coming to Christ. I can see how that is a recipe for burn out on the faith.


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    Kathryn wrote:

    I have a hard time understanding what I hear as anger or resentment in the voices of those ‘driven out of the faith’. If you now believe all the faith stuff is a myth, you should be delighted to be out of it. You are an adult with the ability to seek God via the Bible or any other avenue. Do your research, make your decision but stop blaming others for your choice.

    I’m a fence sitter on the faith, where-as for years, I was a very devout Christian.

    I’m not an exceedingly angry type, though, and I don’t totally understand the very hostile militant atheists. I’m in a place where I don’t know if I believe Christianity anymore or not. I’ve having some big doubts.

    For some people who leave the Christian faith, it’s a slow process. They don’t wake up one day and decide all at once that it’s all false.

    One reason of several why I am doubting the Christian faith is that people who profess Christ, many of them (not all), don’t live up to it. Many Christians don’t even seem to try.

    They often don’t live up to the ethical standards in the Bible, or do very basic, caring things, like bring chicken soup to some church member who’s at home sick and can’t make it to church.

    The Christian faith does not seem to make an actual difference in the lives of a lot of people who claim it. If it is real, shouldn’t that be reflected in the lives of its adherents?

    Since I was a kid, I genuinely lived out the Christian faith as I understood it, as my mother (who was a Christian) role modeled it for me. I used to help people. I didn’t drink, abuse drugs, sleep around.

    My Mom died a few years ago, I went to other Christians for emotional support, but was either brushed off or got lectures, judgement, or criticism. That was one things that opened my eyes and made me wonder if Christianity was a farce.

    I can’t really explain it too well, but it’s not just a case of “blaming other people,” the way you are putting it. I don’t see why I should be a Christian, or do what the Bible says, when it feels like 99& of other Christians are not bothering.

    One other issue your view is not taking into account, for someone like me: I was a Christian since I was a child. It’s all I’ve ever known, and the faith was so important to my mother.

    To seriously consider leaving the faith is a painful process (for me personally). It so defined me for so long, I don’t know quite who I am without it, and if I reject it, I feel like I’m rejecting my mother (who I miss very much), and it feels like I’m losing my mom all over again, in a way, and like I’m being disloyal to her.

    It’s not like I can make a snap judgment and go, “so long Christianity, no regrets about leaving you behind.”

    Kathryn said,

    Also for those who are so ready to attach Christians that accept any list of doctrines. Is there anything that anyone can say they believe is true? Or is your view that in order to not drive people away, Christians need to say any and all beliefs are equally valid?

    Here I am in some agreement with you. I think Christians should balance how they treat others with doctrine.

    I don’t see the point in being a Christian if it’s so open ended anyone and their grandma can make up any old definition they want about the faith (teach that Jesus had three legs, had a pet talking spider named Frank, and was from Mars, for example), or deny central truths of it (e.g., Jesus Christ died for humanity’s sins and was resurrected).


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    dee wrote:

    There are waaaay too many “Christian” jerks out there.

    My dad is a Christian. When I was a kid, and we were at the dinner table, he told my siblings, mother, and myself a story he found funny.

    He was on his way to work that morning when he saw the car ahead of him had a bumper sticker that said, “Honk if you love Jesus Christ,” so my dad honked. The guy driving the car flipped my father off(*).

    My dad found this very amusing. I guess in a way it is, but it’s also kind of sad. My dad got a kick out of that story, though, he repeated it every so often the next several years.
    ————
    * for any non American readers who don’t understand, the guy in the car used a hand gesture that is considered very obscene and insulting in the United States.

    It’s also known as “giving the middle finger,” “flipping the bird,” or “giving the one finger salute.” It’s a way of saying “F You.”


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    I knew the Gone With the Wind sepia toned nostalgia of genteel antebellum society was hogwash before but after . . . Anyone who’s read the book or slave narratives knows that it was SO MUCH WORSE than your worst imaginings.

    I think in one of the threads about gender roles, I posted some quotes form Gone With the Wind.

    I had just finished reading GWTW several months ago. I think the gender complementarian guys could learn a thing or two from Scarlett O’Hara.


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    For what it’s worth, I grew up in fundamentalism (Assemblies of God) and I’m a fairly hardcore atheist now (and I’m also a fan of Wartburg Watch and the other blogs that try to bring some accountability). I actually had a fairly good life growing up in the church – but I’ve seen friends who were hurt significantly b/c they happened to be homosexual in that environment (though I never saw the harm until I’d already become an atheist). For me, the big problem was the fact that there was no really good reason to believe the claims of Christianity. This problem exists, IMHO, whether you’re talking about the liberal accepting version of Christianity, or the hardcore fundamentalist version of Christianity. It’s definitely easier to notice with hardcore fundamentalism – and it’s quite possibly true that if I’d grown up in liberal Christianity, I would never have noticed the problem with the claims that get made. It’s just more glaringly obvious when you church is saying that the earth is 7000 years old, than with the more commonplace notion that there’s a God that listens to our prayers, that condemns us to hell for being imperfect, but who sacrificed himself to himself (temporarily) so that we could get through the loophole and not be tortured for eternity, so that he could get praised without ceasing for an eternity. Strange how that second line of belief is so ingrained that people rarely question it.

    I see people try to work their way around the horrible parts of the Bible – stuff that indicates that the God of the Bible is really a narcissistic bully, cruel and vicious and jealous and petty. They try and say stuff like, “Well, you’ve gotta look at the central message of Jesus.” – but there’ve been plenty of people throughout history that have said better stuff than Jesus. If you want moral guidelines, there are scads out there that are better. How about let’s go with the gospel of Harry Potter? Harry was at least unequivocally anti-slavery. The whole importance of Jesus is tied up with the link to the God of Israel – and that brings in your problem. The God of Israel is really a horrible individual. People talk about “Father God”, but just about any father I’ve ever met is actually a better father than that. If Jesus is linked up (triune and all that, right?) with this bronze-age blood God, then how does he all of a sudden get to be re-defined as a moral beacon? Furthermore, it’s not like Jesus had one central message. People tend to get a notion of the Jesus that they like in their heads, and stick with that, despite all actual evidence to the contrary.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’m a little agnostic, but my views about Christianity would align with the five fundamentals Seneca outlined about, and the YEC view still makes most sense to me.

    I’d ask that folks maybe be a little more charitable about discussing YEC.

    I mean, some of you are trying to be kind-hearted to atheists who say they left Jesus over YEC views, but I am tottering on the edge of, “do I stay or do I leave,” and I’m sympathetic to YEC. By bashing YEC to come across as accepting to anti-YEC atheists, you’re kind of pushing folks like me away at the same time.

    I’m not stupid or a liar, either. Someone above categorized every last YEC as being stupid or lying liars. We’re really not all alike.

    I personally know Dee and while I think her views align with mine on this I’m NOT speaking for her.

    YEC is an overloaded term.

    YEC as defined by Ken Ham and the AIG folks means that SCIENCE shows how the earth was created 6000 or so years ago. Hogwash.

    If you believe in YEC where God caused a miracle about 6000 years or so ago and “poof” everything came into existence, well I think you’re wrong but let’s just not debate it.

    I get the feeling that you’re a member of the second camp. But I may be wrong.


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    K.D. wrote:

    Have a friend and his wife who were literally run off a church staff because they were bringing “undesirables” into the church… He could not find another job afterwards in the Christian ministry. He is now in another profession he really enjoys.

    This is only a hypothesis, as I don’t know anything about your friend beyond what you mentioned, KD, but I’m guessing that when he left “the Christian ministry” he found his true calling in Christ.


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    @ Eagle:
    Eagle wrote:

    Secondly I also would suggest that many Christians are blind to fundamentalism because they see if so often, that it becomes second nature. When you are in fundamentalism I think many people don’t believe they are fundamentalists.

    What you write is true. I find myself stuck between two worlds: modernity and Evangelicalism. My background is fundamentalist. Not the pious people who practice secondary separation, but those who adhere to fundamental doctrine. Even though I know the world is billions of years old, and I don’t believe that science is a bunch of satanic deceptions, I always have in the back of my mind believe that every jot and tittle of the Word of a God is true. The tension between what is written in Scripture and what science indicates all becomes a mystery at this point, and the only understanding I have is that I don’t have all the answers either as a person with a scientific bent, or as a believer in that unknown mystery Who is the Great I Am. I am fine with this lack of harmony and answers that aren’t etched in stone. Many of my brethren aren’t. All I know for certain in the final analysis, and this is an act of Faith on my part, is that God is Love, and that He loves me.


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    What is this blog’s response to the 5 points listed? Not the response to Seneca himself.


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    @ dee:
    Such a short visit!
    It’s such a nice safe world when you believe that the only thing that can stop you believing or practising is your own sinful choices. Nothing nothing nothing about those who long to believe & trust but find they can’t because life/church/whatever has kicked the trust out of them.


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    Kathryn wrote:

    Also for those who are so ready to attach Christians that accept any list of doctrines. Is there anything that anyone can say they believe is true? Or is your view that in order to not drive people away, Christians need to say any and all beliefs are equally valid?

    I can’t speak for other people but here is my problem with those who have the long doctrinal lists. And you are correct in identifying it as “all beliefs are equally valid” but you have missed the point in who it is who is saying that, at least in what I am trying to say about list making. What I see is that these people with the lists think that tertiary issues (to use what I believe is something Wade says) are equally valid with primary issues. Illustration: the ancient creedal statement “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again” is a primary statement. There is no christianity without Christ. But “christians must avoid all alcohol, give up TV, not go to the prom, and believe that science proves YEC” are not primary issues. Jesus calls people to follow HIm; I fail to see that He calls people to fit into some particular subculture which seeks to define cultural stuff as equally valid with spiritual stuff.

    But yes I do think that in order to not offend people, and in order to act like a half-way decent human being, the attitude of the list makers needs to be “I just don’t have any peace as a christian about wearing orange and purple striped underwear, but that does not mean that it is some rule to be pushed off on everybody, and if you think differently that is not going to damage our relationship in any way.”


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    @ dee:
    They can’t handle shades of gray. Either Edwards was a brilliant preacher who God blessed (as proved by his success and fertility) or everything must be false. They can’t accept that he was a brilliant preacher, that sometimes even fatally flawed people enjoy lifelong good fortune with no ultimate comeuppance, and that a person can simultaneously do great things and horrific things. It doesn’t fit their childlike sense of justice.

    Wow. This is so good I had to re-print it.


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    @ NC Now:
    This expresses my position well. Anyway you slice it, believing in a young earth means believing everything we know about just about everything, from history to physics, is wrong. Believing that God created the world recently with the appearance of great age is problematic, but ultimately more honest and less harmful than arguing that a correct understanding of just about everything would prove, scientifically, that the world is young.


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    Daisy wrote:

    burnrnorton wrote:

    I knew the Gone With the Wind sepia toned nostalgia of genteel antebellum society was hogwash before but after . . . Anyone who’s read the book or slave narratives knows that it was SO MUCH WORSE than your worst imaginings.

    I think in one of the threads about gender roles, I posted some quotes form Gone With the Wind.

    I had just finished reading GWTW several months ago. I think the gender complementarian guys could learn a thing or two from Scarlett O’Hara.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love Gone With The Wind. But I have to suspend a lot of disbelief.


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    @ burnrnorton:

    Yep. That too.


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    Hester wrote:

    @ dee:
    Just curious – I was away from this thread for several hours and now suddenly Jimmy/Seneca is on ice. Did he post something upthread that was deleted? Just wondering what caused the reincarceration.

    He wrote a comment that I did not publish. I forgot to leave a comment here that i had not approved a comment. It was directed at me. We are one of the few blogs which allow for people to act like jerks and then return after “time out.” I have my reasons for allowing him to keep trying. Perhaps “hope springs eternal” is one of them.

    However, escalating immediately upon being allowed to comment bodes poorly for further exchange.


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    To Richard: Part 1

    Richard wrote:

    I see people try to work their way around the horrible parts of the Bible – stuff that indicates that the God of the Bible is really a narcissistic bully, cruel and vicious and jealous and petty.

    I hear you, Richard, and I take you seriously, but it is also that you sound like you have reacted to a lot of stuff before you actually researched it, and before you required of yourself that you challenge your own assumptions. You sound like a thinker, but perhaps a young one, or perhaps one who has not done his homework. If you are an atheist I can live with that, but if you sin against thinker-ing I about cannot live with that.

    Have you, for example, challenged your own assumptions about the ancient Israelites? Have you considered that they may have been working with incomplete understanding of what was going on when they wrote down some of their understandings and explanations for what was happening? Or have you assumed that because they wrote it down that somehow that was the “real story” and they understood it thoroughly and so we must accept their understanding of things as complete truth? That assumption even in the face of the fact that Jesus kept saying things like “you have heard it said of old …but I say to you.” I mean do you actually think that unless the ancient Israelites were accurate about rolling dice before each day’s battle in order to determine the will of God for war that day, then somehow it is better to say that God is a bully than to say that the Israelites may have not understood all there was to understand about it all? You may come to that conclusion and still be a thinker, but you may not come to that conclusion before challenging the assumptions. Not if you commit yourself to thinker-ing.


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    To Richard: Part 2

    Richard wrote:

    It’s just more glaringly obvious when you church is saying that the earth is 7000 years old, than with the more commonplace notion that there’s a God that listens to our prayers, that condemns us to hell for being imperfect, but who sacrificed himself to himself (temporarily) so that we could get through the loophole and not be tortured for eternity, so that he could get praised without ceasing for an eternity. Strange how that second line of belief is so ingrained that people rarely question it.

    In the quote above you have said that people “rarely question” the way that you have portrayed the ideas you cite, but the fact is that there are gazillions of serious believers who totally do not see it that way at all, who think in fact that you have not scratched the surface of the message, so to speak. This is why I say you may not have done your homework. How come you did not know this?

    I am not trying to ugly with you, but if you are a thinker you do know that others of us who hover around the thinking flame like moths are going to challenge you–that is how the game is played. Welcome to the playing field.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    parties can agree to disagree without hauling out the siege engines and trebuchet for Holy War.

    The comments about not ‘liking it” when someone blames the church for doing bad things is irritating. As Christians, we should be willing to clearly face our faults since, of course, we know we have them or the Bible we read is not true.

    However, we sure love to point fingers outward at all those nasty atheists and agnostics and how they hate Jesus and just want to be sinners never once looking inward and seeing the sin that is clearly evident to those outside the church.

    What’s that song by Bon Jovi? “You Give Love a Bad Name?’ It fits.


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    Andy wrote:

    He who begun a good work in you will perfect it. If you’ve been saved will He or won’t He complete His work?

    Interesting. So this verse means that no one will ever walk away from the church? Have they lost their free will when they become Christians? As you probably know, I am not a Calvinist. I believe that man comes to the Father in a way that does not impinge on their free will. (Quick note: man does not save himself-God does).

    Is that free will in play throughout the Christian’s life? Could that verse have something to do with our end of the deal? For me, the worse thing I can imagine is not having a relationship with Jesus. Could it be that the Father cooperates with our will, never forcing but encouraging us along the way?

    I have met a number of atheists who used to be Christians. After listening to their stories, i believe that they were. If they weren’t, then there are a bunch of good pastors and committed people in the church who follow the Lord, pray, serve, lead, read the Bible, etc who are not Christians. There are many that you would say exhibit the Spirit. I am not talking about the fringe. I am talking about the committed.

    I spent years before starting this blog listening to their stories and asking them questions without imposing my framework on their stories prospectively. I am left with believing that they were Christ followers who no longer do so.

    Let me give you something to ponder. You would agree that the Holy Spirit is perfect as is the Father and the Son. Now, the Holy Spirit comes to reside in each of us at time of salvation. Is the Holy Spirit weaker than the Father and the Son? Is He not able to compel us to not sin? Since we all do sin, does this mean the Spirit is ineffective? If your answer is that the Spirit somehow cooperates with out will, then why not with the other members of the Trinity?


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    Deebs…check your email. Today marks 1 year. 🙁


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    @ Eagle:
    Wait until your story gets out! There was pain but a glorious journey, something you could never have imagined!


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    @ Daisy:
    Never fear, Daisy. According to polls, you are in the majority of those in conservative Christian circles. It is those who do not adhere to YEC that are the outcasts at many churches.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Some Non-Christians (I have in mind militant atheists) can be just as bad.

    However, we are the Christians. We should be the ones to show grace and kindness in the face of militancy. As Richard Wurmbrand said “When you crush a flower, it rewards you by giving you its perfume. When you crush a Christian, she rewards you by giving you her love.”

    How many Christians exhibit this love in the face of militancy? It is my observation that Christians just follow suit, tit for tat, etc. Just a ho-hum kind of faith. “If you can insult me then I can insult you.” We are supposed to be different.


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    Andy wrote:

    Sorry I didn’t get much farther than this thought: Jesus makes specific statements that none will be snatched out of His hand. If this is the case how can one person drive another away from the faith when it is God Himself that is keeping said person in the faith?

    I have not researched it this morning, but I thought that He said “nobody will snatch them out of.. ” rather than “none will be snatched.” In this case there is a lot of difference in meaning in those two verb tenses. Where did He say that nobody could/would turn and walk away, especially when He stood right there and watched some turn back from following Him when he first talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood? And He specifically asked the remaining disciple whether they were going to leave Him also. Obviously He acknowledged that leaving was possible.

    And look at the parable of the sower and the seed. Not everything that sprouts or even grows for a while necessarily thrives right on. Regardless of what one thinks is an explanation for what we call apostasy, the fact is that there are instances in scripture where some people followed Jesus for a while and then turned and walked away.


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    @ Melanie:
    There are some good books and posts on the development of fundamentalism. It was a response to the folks like Fosdick and others who were rejecting parts of the Bible, especially those parts that dealt with the miracles of Jesus-Virgin Birth, etc. You can get a quick overview of the issue here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Emerson_Fosdick

    The fundamentals came out in response to this controversy. The problem with the fundamentals is that they got mixed up in a bunch of rules: no drinking, dancing, movies, etc., etc. It was not unlike the Pharisees who took the Torah and wrote a rule book.

    I think the early church fathers did a bang up job with the Nicene Creed ad the Apostles Creed. They have lasted through the millennia. For many, they are not “enough” You can read this post at The Gospel Coalition which I have been meaning to review.

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/05/01/are-you-a-heretic/


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    Nancy wrote:

    Where did He say that nobody could/would turn and walk away, especially when He stood right there and watched some turn back from following Him when he first talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood? And He specifically asked the remaining disciple whether they were going to leave Him also. Obviously He acknowledged that leaving was possible.

    Great comment!!


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    Ten reasons why virtually every list produced by fundamentalists is NOT Christian:

    1. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    2. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    3. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    4. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    5. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    6. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    7. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    8. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    9. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.
    10. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.


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    Daisy wrote:

    To seriously consider leaving the faith is a painful process (for me personally). It so defined me for so long, I don’t know quite who I am without it, and if I reject it, I feel like I’m rejecting my mother (who I miss very much), and it feels like I’m losing my mom all over again, in a way, and like I’m being disloyal to her.

    If your mother displayed the best virtues of Christianity and you yourself continue to interact with the world as she would have done, you can never lose her even if you leave religion. You carry her and all she was within you and by doing as she would have done, you honor her.


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    @ Nancy:

    Oops, my bad. I believe I should not have said vert tense but rather verb voice. Like I have said often and demonstrated even more often, my background is in science, not English. Sorry.


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    Richard wrote:

    who sacrificed himself to himself (temporarily) so that we could get through the loophole and not be tortured for eternity, so that he could get praised without ceasing for an eternity. Strange how that second line of belief is so ingrained that people rarely question it.

    Thank you for your thoughtful comment.

    Let me give you my perspective on this. A few years back, I took a trip to Alaska. One part of the trip was a cruise. The first morning the weather was incredible and almost warm so I decided to go sit up on deck. As I turned my deck chair around, I saw one of the most beautiful views that I could imagine. Mountains covered with glaciers, the blue ocean and a few whales jumping out of the water. It was so stunning, that I wanted to praise that view except, of course, it was inanimate. But I was filled with awe for the beauty that I was able to experience. There was no coercion. There was not some book telling me “you must praise this view.” It was born somewhere deep inside myself.

    In some respects, our salvation is like that. We are free to see the Creator of the Universe-the Creator of all that is out there-planets, black holes, galaxies. We see a Creator that loves us. The praise for God does not stem from being forced to praise an egocentric God who acts like some two bit dictator. It comes from suddenly seeing the view : the love, the creation, etc and finally having someone to thank. It stems from a heart that is overwhelmed but what it sees. It is born deep inside and rises to the outside, barely able to be contained.

    Years ago, when I went through a challenging time in my faith, i came to the realization that there were really smart individuals out there on both sides of the belief spectrum. So, I decided to read the best of all of them. There are Christians who have taken a hard look at the issues that you raise in the Old Testament. And I know they are hard-I struggled with them. I found some smart folks that did struggle with this stuff honestly and still came out on the side of faith. I was convinced. But, that does not mean that I have all the answers.

    For me, the bottom line is this. As I look at the entirely of the Biblical narrative, it does answer, for me, a number of questions that I have as I look at the world around me. It deals with the issue of man’s inhumanity to man and why, after all these millennia, we still cause pain to one another. To quote Elvis “We’re caught in trap.” It was that trap that led me to the issue of grace and that is what drew me to God.

    Once again, I really appreciate your comment. I like getting challenged. It is good for my soul. I am so grateful you took the time to be honest with us.


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    @ JeffT:
    Well stated!


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    @ Beakerj:
    There is another individual, whose name I fear to speak because he will be on it like lightening, who did the same thing about a month ago. He started off nice but deteriorated rapidly and was sent packing again. However, for both of them, I may let them back on again. However, with these two folks, I will nip it all before it gets going from now one.

    These two individuals are in permanent moderation.


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    @ JeffT:

    Outstanding! 🙂


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    Lots of thoughts/responses and I will try to be concise and thorough, if not in order….

    Is there a difference between leaving the faith(as the article’s title implies) and leaving A(emphasized) church??

    Not that I am taking a position of, “they were never really Christians”, but I think this is an important distinction. In my years of ministry and growing up in a ministry family something I believe to be my observational experience is that many people are part of a church for personal/social reasons. And when those reasons “dry” up in the man made organization they belong to, they “leave the faith”.

    For example; I knew a guy who was in ministry for a few years. His story was of a broken impoverished family with a father in prison for life. As a teenager it was a group of other teen Christians who were his friends, he got involved in church at that point. His whole faith/worldview was wrapped up in some great and caring younger guys. When he got a bit older(early 20’s) he was serving in a campus ministry where he had some significant personality clashes with some other young guys. In some ways they weren’t too kind with him,. but knowing him fairly well, he wasn’t either. After a year or so of some clashes with these guys he decided that Christianity was junk and he “became” an outspoken atheist who utilizes his facebook wall to mock others beliefs.

    The way I perceive this whole event was that his religious experience was all about friendships, and not about Christ. When he had some bad experiences with other Christians, he decided he was done with it. Was he never really a Christian? Who knows? But what I do know is that looking to imperfect people instead of Christ is always a problem.

    Not to shoehorn everyone’s experience of “leaving the faith” to fit this experience, but I nearly always see some sort of similar story when these conversations come up. Should the Church and Christians be a better picture of Christ? Of course! But I don’t think “bad Christians” equal forcing people out of Christ.

    For instance, I have had a number of friends who have been left by their spouses. Just absolutely horrendous and heartbreaking sin centered experiences. If they then said, “love is a lie and no one should ever get married and I will never ever be with someone ever again” I would have a problem with that. Not that they don’t have a real legitimate heartache, but a bad experience with one person(or people in the case of a church) does not invalidate the truth of love and marriage as a whole.

    Not to put myself on a pedestal of my super heroic faithfulness…..I enjoy your articles and insights into abusive narcissistic pastors because I have experienced that more than one time in my early ministry career. Textbook cases. Some of the stories were so ridiculous(hiding a piece of hay in the back corner of the stage to catch you not really cleaning and trying to use that as justification for firing……)that years later it causes me to laugh because I can barely believe I experienced it. Though at the time it was horrible. But as bad as some of those leaders and churches were, I never once even contemplated “leaving the faith”. Why? Because my faith wasn’t tied to people. People aren’t perfect and even the best will let us down at times. When we make people/organizations the basis of our belief system then our belief system will eventually crumble.

    I think this is getting too long for one post…..


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    Continued….

    It is all the rage to bash fundamentalism, and part of that stems from an inconsistent application of fundamentalism. As I think some in this thread were discussing. I had a great seminary professor who distinguished between faithful Christians and fundamentalists as fundamentalists being people who are angry about something and want you to be angry as well….That is a working definition that has served me well. Not to paint with a broad brush all legitimate anger as being unhealthy fundamentalism. But more in the vein of being tied to secondary/tertiary issues.

    We all have non-negotiables in the practice of our faith. The conflict arises when we make our non-negotiables man centered and not bible centered. For instance the readers of the TWW would agree that child abuse is a non-negotiable. Which is obviously biblical. No one would contend that being angrily opposed to such depravity means you are a rigid fundamentalist.

    The problems within the Church catholic is that we have done a very poor job of stating/defending/defining the non-negotiables of the faith. Which leads to a lot of ridiculous infighting between camps. But, at what point is that perception of infighting appropriate and necessary? Meaning, one could argue that TWW “obsession” with calling out abuse “hiders” is just damaging infighting that scares people away.

    I am not saying that….just to be clear…..

    But if we accept the premise that there are absolutely cases where we should stand up firmly in opposition to wrong/damaging theology and practices, then it creates a much murkier environment to “call out” others who are standing firmly in their own oppositions. Meaning, who gets to draw the line in the sand and say, my positions, rooted in scripture, are appropriate to make a public nuisance over, but not THEIR positions, rooted in scripture….

    These thoughts lead me to the position of saying the only hope we have of unification is found in God’s word. Otherwise, we will be in a never ending battle of personal preferences. And even if our personal preferences are “more right”, we aren’t helping anything…

    To be continued


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    final thoughts….

    As far as people who reject their earlier faith because of positions like YEC or some other issue, I think(and I know that sounds mean) that it is a weak excuse.

    I think Nancy mentioned her challenge to someone about whether or not they are actually a “thinker”. To piggyback on that(I hope she doesn’t mind) I will simply address the YEC issue and contend that it is a pretty apt illustration of the other issues to some degree…

    For those who have not read Hugh Ross’s “A Matter of Days” I highly encourage it. He biblically and scientifically contends for a multiple billion year old earth and special creation. He tears Ken Hamm a new one scientifically and biblically and leads a ministry that is seeing scores of atheistic scientists come to saving faith. For most of my life I just generally accepted with little thought the YEC position. Read his book and had my mind blown.

    When people say, “I left the faith because of YEC” I an incredulous at best. Not that the Ken Hamm’s of the world are great evangelists for non-believers(they aren’t) but that position totally avoids interacting with what is becoming the majority view within the Church today. It’s like saying(imo) that I left the faith because of those crazy snake handlers down in Kentucky….Sure those crazy snake handlers are weird and it is a non-biblical practice….but to decide that faith is completely invalid because some people are pushing a ridiculous doctrine is lazy and dishonest…

    Going back to my first post. Are we placing our hope and trust in Christ, or people? And if we claim to have once been Christians, but our Christianity was about people, what were we really at that point. And if what we end up rejecting is Christ as revealed in scripture(not the poor way people represent him) then what were we really joining when we did claim to be a Christian. The concept of saying I am a Christian UNTIL I know more about this Christ fella and the Bible, is odd for me to comprehend.

    Not that you have to know everything there is to know about Jesus and the bible before you are really a Christian, but I have trouble reconciling the idea that I have a valid faith up until the point I actually read more of the bible. If reading the bible causes you to no longer like Jesus, then who/what did you like before you read it?


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    Oh one more thought…..

    There is a quote that I believe originated from Tim Keller that has served me very well when interacting with those in the process of leaving the faith…

    He tells a story about working with college students who were asking a lot of questions in which they were challenging thinks like creation vs evolution and indicating that they were on their way out the door. Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?” And it was almost universally across the board that they were indeed having sex, or, some other manner of sexual sin. To paraphrase(poorly) Keller contends that at the heart of what we often feel are legitimate questions is the desire to be justified in sin(and often sexual sin). So while the questions are not themselves invalid, the problem is the heart, not the mind.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Oh one more thought…..

    There is a quote that I believe originated from Tim Keller that has served me very well when interacting with those in the process of leaving the faith…

    He tells a story about working with college students who were asking a lot of questions in which they were challenging thinks like creation vs evolution and indicating that they were on their way out the door. Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?” And it was almost universally across the board that they were indeed having sex, or, some other manner of sexual sin. To paraphrase(poorly) Keller contends that at the heart of what we often feel are legitimate questions is the desire to be justified in sin(and often sexual sin). So while the questions are not themselves invalid, the problem is the heart, not the mind.

    To clarify I DO NOT ask this question like he does in the story he tells. But the thought process informs my approach…


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    @ JeffT:
    Some proud, disrespectful, rude, disobedient, trendy fellow with no backbone or sense of humor (who thought truth didn’t matter and the Bible was false) once wrote, “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.” (or maybe it was the disciple Jesus loved…)


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    @ Richard:
    Hi Richard, thanks for stopping by and sharing. I was also raised fundamentalist, and relate quite a bit to your experience. For starters, I have most of a seminary degree from multiple seminaries (didn’t finish; don’t plan to), so I have what is probably a “higher than average” understanding of the original languages and manuscripts, history of interpretation, etc. I can’t answer everything you wrote, but there are two things I would like to engage you on. The first is the “bloodthirsty god of Israel” idea. There are plenty of people who teach this (not just “fundamentalists”), but it doesn’t comport with the New Testament writings. In fact, one of the central messages of Jesus was something like “You all got it wrong.” There are tons of really good books/dissertations/journal articles on this. In fact, Jesus went so far as to blatantly contradict the law. This is why it was called a “new” testament, and why the Christians were first and foremost opposed by the Hebrews. In fact, the Christian idea that God is precisely NOT how the Hebrews conceived of him was so strong that Marcion created a stream of Christianity that taught that the God of the OT was a totally different deity. His teaching was later condemned as heresy, but at one time it was a major sect, which demonstrates that it was perfectly plausible vis-a-vis early church conceptions of God. Jesus is recorded in the gospels as saying “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father” – the gospel writers at least wanted their readers to understand that God was like Jesus.

    The second point I’d like to engage is the idea of Jesus as ethical leader. For starters, I think the example you gave is not really serious. What I mean is that Harry Potter took a theoretical stance on evil, while Jesus was busy engaging people in a very real, and very evil setting. Even healing lepers was a violation of the law! He stood in solidarity with a woman condemned to die by stoning for committing adultery. These are the kinds of actions that have a real cost, and real consequences. And working ethics out in real life is so much more difficult than loudly trumpeting a theoretical ethical position. If we had more people like Jesus, maybe we would have less child slave trafficking. However, it is kind of a moot point simply because Christians didn’t – and don’t – follow Jesus because of his ethical teachings. We follow him because he rose from the dead. And even when I was in my period of questioning and rejecting my faith, I still realized something very important. If a man crucified rose from the dead, it changes everything.

    Thanks for taking the time to share, and for listening (if this isn’t tl;dr). I hope you do well and have peace. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, let me know and we’ll grab a beer or bourbon or something.


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    @ Dave A A:

    Exactly! It never ceases to amaze and depress me the almost total disregard for the Second Great Commandment in the fundamentalist world.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    To paraphrase(poorly) Keller contends that at the heart of what we often feel are legitimate questions is the desire to be justified in sin(and often sexual sin). So while the questions are not themselves invalid, the problem is the heart, not the mind.

    Holy non sequitur and poisoning the well, Batman. Am I missing the third item in the logical fallacy trifecta?


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    @ burnrnorton:

    Yeah I wondered about that too. The thought process seems to be that I accept evolution as a cornerstone of biology because I had sex outside of marriage? Or did I have sex because of evolution? ( The latter is kind of true because sexual drive is a product of evolution)


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    Holy non sequitur and poisoning the well, Batman. Am I missing the third item in the logical fallacy trifecta?

    Perhaps I stated it poorly…the question isn’t whether or not evolution is true in and of itself, but is evolution true as an excuse to leave the faith. It is quite fine to say, “I am a faithful Christian who has some questions about evolution”, which is a wholly different question then, “I am rejecting the faith BECAUSE I am using my thoughts on evolution as an excuse”. That is what he is addressing, not the general question on evolution.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Adam…what bulls*** (ed) by Tim Keller! So the fact that I wrestled with the Problem of Evil for years or seeing that God was not different than Adolf Hitler when you look at the huge loss of life in the OT…in the end that was all due to porn? Nothing about intellectual doubts or problems?


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    Melanie wrote:

    What is this blog’s response to the 5 points listed? Not the response to Seneca himself.

    It’s worth remembering that the term “fundamentalism” has acquired a ton of baggage it didn’t originally have. It originally grew in response to a culture in which it was fashionable openly to present one’s own opinion as being as valid as the opinions of Paul, Peter (and Jesus) and whoever else wrote the Bible. As a result, you could preach any old sh1te you wanted and still call yourself a Christian.

    I can’t speak for the entire blog, of course, and I don’t think even Deebs would try to. My own answer to Melanie’s question is: I would not actually respond to the points one by one, but to them all as a whole. I think the reasons and motives behind them have a lot of merit and I respect them. But I also think that the list is a child of its time, and that continuing to camp around it would be a mistake.

    There are fewer people, and churches, now who wish to believe in any old theology up to and including the non-existence of God. There is, however, a strong cabal of churches who want to reduce the church itself to a profit-making organisation and the Christian life to a set of doctrines lived in obedience to a CEO “pastor”. There is also a strong culture in which God is only interested in bringing people into church meetings and in which he is active only in the sermon. This is what my own list of fundamentals would challenge.

    As a very rough description, then, I suppose:

     Jesus Christ of Nazareth walked this earth like we do, and he is not only God, but King, and a Christian follows him as King
     Righteousness and justice relate to how we treat people, not where we stand on concepts like abortion and homosexuality
     God feels, speaks and acts today: he could heal the sick, create jobs and even intervene in conflicts if his people would only co-operate with him
     The same Holy Spirit who inspired (and is greater than) the Bible lives in every believer
     And yes, there is a life after this one, in which we will see God himself face to face, and everything will make sense; and our final hope is in the resurrection of the dead.

    I suppose you can tell a lot about someone by what his personal “five fundamentals” are!


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    @ Dave A A:

    Yeah, I’ve heard of that guy too, Dave. Dodgy as heck if you ask me.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    Yeah I wondered about that too. The thought process seems to be that I accept evolution as a cornerstone of biology because I had sex outside of marriage? Or did I have sex because of evolution?

    The thought process seems to be that CELEBRITY theologians and Christian sin-sniffers have dirty minds. (“SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX! SEX!”)

    And there’s also the “HOW DARE THEY DO WHAT *I*’M FORBIDDEN TO!” factor.


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    JeffT wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Exactly! It never ceases to amaze and depress me the almost total disregard for the Second Great Commandment in the fundamentalist world.

    Not to mention the First.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    I didn’t leave faith because of evolution. I have made it very clear that I refuse to be associated with people who think lying is ok.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    Yeah, I’ve heard of that guy too, Dave. Dodgy as heck if you ask me.

    Would you say he falls more into the liberal, postmodern, or kum-ba-yah camp?


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    Dave A A wrote:

    Would you say [the apostle John] falls more into the liberal, postmodern, or kum-ba-yah camp?

    Yes, I probably would!


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    @ nmgirl:

    I recently left a church after 15 years because some elders thought lying was okay. In their minds they didn’t view their actions as lying, which becomes a bigger issue regarding their conscious. What they obviously don’t believe is the Gospel, and that asking for forgiveness will bring forgiveness. What they really don’t seem to be able to deal with is the consequences that that will come with a confession – their pride will need to cease to to exist. I still love the Lord, but I refuse to participate with leaders who don’t accept the results of their behavior.

    The issue of the earth’s age isn’t an issue for me, but I certainly wouldn’t advocate lying about reality.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    I generally agree with 4 of Seneca’s 5 fundamentals, and agree with you that continuing to camp around them is a mistake. I can totally “go” for your 5.
    An aside– you wrote, “and whoever else wrote the Bible”. My favorite to think of, out of all those, is Nebuchadnezzar!


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    @ Bridget:
    My favorite pastor once said, “We think smoking and drinking are sinful because we can smell them– but if we could only smell a lie…”


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    Dave A A wrote:

    My favorite to think of, out of all those, is Nebuchadnezzar!

    Good one!

    🙂


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    There is strong evidence that most of the OT was lost in the destruction of Jerusalem and re-recorded in Babylon during the exile, ca.500 or so BC. So old Neb might have been a contributor. But it was mostly the writing down from memory of what people had been told was in the earlier books that had been destroyed. And even at that, the so-called books of Moses are generally about Moses (except Genesis), not necessarily written down by him! And a lot of it reads like oral tradition converted to writing as some later date, such as the flood story and the extremely long lives of some of the actors.


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    I think the real gospel of Jesus is being replaced by the gospel of the 503c (the agenda of religious professionals).

    That is why I have chosen to be a “none”, at least for now.


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    @ dee:

    Okay. I figured there was a comment missing, because immediate lockdown seemed to be a pretty extreme reaction to the rather vanilla comment above about the fundamentals.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Wow, Adam. Go get a drink of water. No, I am kidding, most of what you said I just sat here and nodded pretty much. But I have some problem with this last thing about questions and sin. It is true that Jesus said that people do not come to the light because their deeds are evil. By light, He meant himself, not some doctrinal position, when you read the entire statement. No argument with the truth of that statement. But here is where it gets complicated in dealing with people. We are all sinners, hopefully not committed-to-continuing-in-sin sinners, but we do not all “leave the faith” whatever that actually means. I am thinking that there are also other (or many other) variables at work.

    For instance, Nicodemus was clueless, had the sense to seek out answers, but Himself did not accuse Nicodemus of sin but rather of cluelessness–how is it you a ruler of israel do not know this? So I am reluctant to skip over the questions and race right to the idea of sin, because it just may be more complicated than that.

    Let me also say that massive pain and suffering can be precipitating factors in feeling so isolated from God that one believes one has left the faith when in fact that may not be the case. To write that off as sin would be really awful. First deal with the pain and suffering, then re-evaluate what is going on, and only then face the problem of issues beyond the pain and suffering itself, if there are any.

    Another thing that sticks in my mind is how Jesus was willing to answer questions from the guys. When they asked for the meaning of something He took pains to explain in detail and in clearly understood explanations. Sooooo, why would we not take the same approach, especially since we have no idea what is actually going on in somebody else’s soul? And in light of the evidence that Jesus, who did know what was going on in humans, did not accuse people of sin every time somebody asked him a question why we we do that? In my thinking, as long as somebody hangs around and asks questions and issues challenges these are not the dead or the intractably evil (omitting word destined for moderation) but rather these are some of the very folks Jesus took time to interact with. Thanks be to God, because otherwise he would not have taken time with me. As an illustration, what if, for instance Tolkien had said to Lewis, “I am tired of messing with you, man, go get the sin out of your life and then (maybe) come back and we will talk.” Did Lewis have sin in his life? Sure. Did that make his agonizing over questions just a pretense and a cover up? Apparently not.

    But if some fundamentalists seem to think they know more about sin than they do about God, who am I to argue with them? (That was ugly, but I just could not pass it up.)


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    @ An Attorney:
    Neb said, “May you prosper greatly!
    It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.”
    This proves the prosperity gospel (and possibly Christian Hedonism).
    Again Neb said, “the spirit of the holy gods is in him” and “the spirit of the holy gods is in you”.
    This proves polytheism.
    Neb said it, I believe it, and that settles it for me!


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    So often I see the authentic questioning of men and women dismissed by Christians as “they are just sinners who don’t want to know truth.” While at the same time I see the same Christians defending and excusing their Christian leaders and/or friends who are sinning greviously. Why does the Christian leader or friend get a pass (often called grace) and the unbeliever or questioning man/woman doesn’t? Does God treat the two differently? Should the Christian leader, who should know better, be given a pass and his hard heartedness ignored while the questioning unbeliever is treated as a waste of time and called hard hearted?


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    I’m sincerely confused. Jonny (ed. chg) post is intelligent, thoughtful and balanced, but I’m trying to understand his stance and point of the commentary around it.

    He uses the word “abuse” referring it seems (unless I missed something) to the fact that people who have different beliefs than him aren’t open to changing their minds. And dismissing him as a non Christian. But he says himself he is not a Christian. Given the real abuse that exists- the twisted, sick control of people under the GUISE of Christianity, I think it waters down those issues. It’s cool with me if he is an athiest. I myself am a bit of a none- continually seeking a deeper relationship with God through Christ in my hobbled way. I am certainly not a fundamentalist or any real label or brand of Christianity. But on e my life was saved, no person or church could change it. My dearest friend on earth is gay and I leave that issue as I have no clarity on it. I love him deeply. I don’t try to convince atheists- I respect their view- probably come to through life’s experience as my beliefs have. But since I’m not ever going to labor over long intellectual conversation to talk me out of my faith, I don’t think I’m turning someone away from God.

    Maybe there is more heaped into this post given the mission of this blog which I respect for shining light on real abusive issues. But I just don’t see how Jonny’s story is unique and calls a certain brand of Christians to the carpet for… Their beliefs, however odd they might be.

    We can easily digress to argueing and fighting over doctrine, no? It’s everywhere and it’s sickening. I like what Dee said about can’t imagining life without Christ (sorry if inaccurate quote). I share that truth. That’s just my truth. And if Jonny states his truth- good for him- truly. Just because people don’t ingest and come over to that truth is not abuse.


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    Sorry- my eyes are bad- in my late 40s. JONNYS post. (Not Jimmy’s). Thanks.


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    @ Dave A A: Hey, ITS IN THE BIBLE, SO IT MUST BE LITERALLY TRUE!!!!!


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    @ An Attorney: NOT!!!


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    JeffT wrote:

    Ten reasons why virtually every list produced by fundamentalists is NOT Christian:

    1. Not one item on these lists ever address the command to love one’s neighbor.

    (snipped for length)

    That’s one reason why I dislike the creeds so much. Everything about what Jesus taught is reduced to a comma and a space between “He was born of the Virgin Mary, crucified under Pontius Pilate…”

    I also think the creeds express a Greek view about God that would have been unfamiliar to the first Christians, many of whom were Jewish, and for whom strict Jewish monotheism was the order of the day.

    Creeds are really great at putting up boundaries and that was the original purpose of the Nicene Creed, to tell the heretics from the true believers. However, there’s a passage in Mark 9 where the disciples tell Jesus that they told off a person who was using Jesus’ name to cast out demons. No doubt the disciples expected approval, but Jesus confounded them by saying, “Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.” (Mark 9:38-39)

    I don’t think creeds are helpful and I won’t recite one if asked. Jesus taught his disciples a type of prayer, surely if he thought there was a need for a statement of beliefs, he would have come up with one.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    As far as people who reject their earlier faith because of positions like YEC or some other issue, I think(and I know that sounds mean) that it is a weak excuse.

    I’m sorry, but it’s absolutely not a weak excuse. It goes to the very heart of the problem with fundamentalism. If someone going to lie to me about something that is demonstrably false, and as far as I am concerned, YEC is demonstrably false, then why should I believe that same person when he tries to tell me he knows the way to eternal life? Moreover, when YEC is used as the dividing line between “being Christian” and “not being Christian” according to some people (see Ken Ham), then it is a serious problem and one that believers absolutely need to confront and deal with.

    N.B. YEC postulates a view of the universe that does not match observation. I am not a geologist or a biologist, but I have a very good understanding of astronomy for a layperson with indifferent math skills. I can look up in the sky and see objects where the light took much, much longer than 7,000 years to get here. It’s a trick and a dodge to say something like, “Well God created that light on the way from the Andromeda Galaxy and it was just 7,000 years ago” or “The speed of light was much, much faster earlier.” We have no proof of either of those assertions; I might as well believe in Last Thursdayism (aka the Omphalos theory).


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    @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    Jesus didn’t seem concerned that the man was outside of his disciples “norm”, did he? He actually told the disciples to let him be. Do you think Jesus knew exactly what/where the man was at and he didn’t need the disciples to “set him straight (aka playing God)?

    I see what you mean about the creeds. They can be seen as “adding to” the Bible. When we insist people believe them or they are not Christians, are we adding to the what Jesus says is needed to be one of his disciples? Personally, I think modern Christians add a lot to scripture, but I also see a lot of selective remembering and forgetting.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    He tells a story about working with college students who were asking a lot of questions in which they were challenging thinks like creation vs evolution and indicating that they were on their way out the door. Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?” And it was almost universally across the board that they were indeed having sex, or, some other manner of sexual sin.

    OH GOOD GRIEF. (Sorry to shout.) This infuriates the heck out of me. I’ve heard my ex-Mormon friends tell me that their families, their friends and their former church leaders all accuse them of *wanting to sin* or being in sin when they left the church. And the people I know who left, they left because what they were being taught in church didn’t match the facts, not because they wanted a cup of coffee or had decided to move in with their boyfriend. So, in short, I don’t believe Tim Keller for a moment when he says this. I think he’s just using the easy way out to avoid discussing difficult issues.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?”

    @ mirele: Yes, GOOD GRIEF! This one is really old – the first time I heard it was in the late 70ies or early 80ies


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    Daisy wrote:

    I had one Christian friend who believed in theistic evolution and that the world was millions of years old, who kept trying to convert me to his view on that stuff. I couldn’t figure out why. I was happy to agree to disagree.

    Believe it or not Daisy I too have now rejected the evolutionary paradigm (theistic or non-theistic). But since I also reject large swaths of classical Western theology (both Catholic & Protestant), I really don’t have a dog in the old fight betwixt the progressive & conservative wings of Christianity for origins. Suffice it to say you make a good point about the very human desire to convert others to our particular viewpoints.


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    @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    What I mean by a “weak excuse” is that harping on the YEC position ignores that IT IS being addressed “in house” and that the growing majority of Christian academic thinking on the matter does NOT argue for a YEC position…To restate, I don’t reject Christianity because some wackodoodles are handling snakes. Regardless of the widespread acceptance of YEC it does not justify jettisoning faith because some people are wrong about an issue.

    As far as claiming that YEC are potentially liars and therefore to not be trusted in any area…I think that is a silly argument as well.

    1) Could God “trick” people into seeing age where age does not actually exist? Of course. I don’t think there is a biblical or theological way to justify that, but if God exists He could do that if He wanted to. So the approach they take to arguing against the age of earth and evolution are inherently theological, not scientific. To dissuade them from their position requires theological arguments, not scientific ones. Which in this case, I think Hugh Ross does a more than adequate job of attacking the theological framework of YEC.

    2) While you and I may agree that it is “demonstrably” true that they are wrong, it does not HAVE to follow that they are liars. When we evaluate the broad expanse of human knowledge (including our personal knowledge) there are a number of areas(such as someone falsely believing that wolverines are better than buckeyes) where we will emotionally hold onto beliefs instead of being rationally honest about them. This does not then mean anything that this person believes is suspect, it just means that in this particular case they are mistaken.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I see what you mean about the creeds. They can be seen as “adding to” the Bible. When we insist people believe them or they are not Christians, are we adding to the what Jesus says is needed to be one of his disciples? Personally, I think modern Christians add a lot to scripture, but I also see a lot of selective remembering and forgetting.

    Well, you know, I think Paul was on to something when he wrote to the Corinthians: “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” (1 Corinthians 2:2) And certainly some of the elaborate Trinitarian wordplay of the Nicene Creed (oh, I am not even going to touch the Athanasian creed with a ten-foot pole) goes to a doctrinal place that neither Jesus nor Paul went to or taught in what we have from them. But that’s my personal opinion; others may differ.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    To restate, I don’t reject Christianity because some wackodoodles are handling snakes. Regardless of the widespread acceptance of YEC it does not justify jettisoning faith because some people are wrong about an issue.

    As far as claiming that YEC are potentially liars and therefore to not be trusted in any area…I think that is a silly argument as well.

    I’m sorry, it’s not a silly argument. It is absolutely fundamental. Seriously, it goes to one’s character and integrity. If Ken Ham told me the sun was coming up in the East, I’d have a look out the window, because he lies, he lies more and he lies even more. He is *that* untrustworthy. I’d be nuts to believe him if he says he knows the way to salvation.

    The fact that other people here on this post have said the same thing as me (e.g., nmgirl) indicates that this is a *real problem* and not something you can push off as “silly.”


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    @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    In most cases, it seems they don’t want to discuss the difficult issues because they ‘might’ have to say they don’t know, or don’t understand completely — gasp!! Then they have to admit that they don’t know all things or that the bible, itself, isn’t clear on ‘all’ all things, and then the door is open to someone believing something in the bible differently than they do. Men have too much pride in what they know of scripture.

    Believing in Jesus and his work is not equal to the scripture. The former is far better than the latter.


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    gus wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:
    Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?”
    @ mirele: Yes, GOOD GRIEF! This one is really old – the first time I heard it was in the late 70ies or early 80ies

    Uber-Christians have very Dirty Minds.
    (Obsessing upon the Forbidden Fruit?)


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    @ Bridget:

    And just why is their ego so much bigger than their faith? Why can’t they honestly say, “I don’t know”? The atheist scientists they condemn say it all the time.


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    @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:

    Do you reject every single person who believes or espouses something that YOU feel is demonstrably false? As a silly example, but pertinent, one of the DNA guys, Watson and Crick, I forget which one exactly, also believed some insane stuff about the origin of life. He wrote about aliens putting us here. Since I am convinced that this is a demonstrably false belief, do I therefore say, “I’m not going to trust this DNA gobblygook because he was a nutter!!””..?

    Someone being wrong in one area, even if it is extreme, does not invalidate, automatically, other things they say. How in the world could we function in this world with that approach??

    The problem with Ken Hamm(specifically) is that he wades into science with theology. Not that theology and science are necessarily incompatible. As I already said, he is arguing a theological world view and has basically stated that science that contradicts his world view is not to be trusted. While this seems crazy on the surface, mocking it does not address the heart of the problem, misapplied theology.

    Interesting history of the creation vs evolution debate…The prominence of anti-evolution/YEC movement was established as knee jerk reaction to Darwin. Pre-Darwin there really was little concern or hyper focus on what “6” days meant. Most theologians read the Hebrew word for day in its full sense; potentially indicating everything from a 24 hour period to indeterminate periods of time we established beginning and ends(kind of like an “age”).

    When the anti-Christian crowd latched onto the potential of evolution as an attack of Christianity the church reacted by deciding that it HAD to mean six 24 hour periods. Doctrine/theology developed as a knee jerk reaction is always going to be poorly thought out…..


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    Nancy wrote:

    But if some fundamentalists seem to think they know more about sin than they do about God, who am I to argue with them? (That was ugly, but I just could not pass it up.)

    “A fanatic is someone who does what God would do, if God only KNEW what was REALLY Going On.”


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    To dissuade them from their position requires theological arguments, not scientific ones. Which in this case, I think Hugh Ross does a more than adequate job of attacking the theological framework of YEC.

    I have oceans of admiration and respect for Dr. Ross. Can you post the links where he addresses his views on the theological framework for YEC?


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    An Attorney wrote:

    There is strong evidence that most of the OT was lost in the destruction of Jerusalem and re-recorded in Babylon during the exile, ca.500 or so BC. …mostly the writing down from memory of what people had been told was in the earlier books that had been destroyed. And even at that, the so-called books of Moses are generally about Moses (except Genesis), not necessarily written down by him! And a lot of it reads like oral tradition converted to writing as some later date…

    That would also explain why Genesis 1 is structured as a PARODY of Babylonian Creation Mythology. Take the “Everybody Knows That!” of the dominant goyisha culture and turn it on its head.


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    @ nmgirl:

    I don’t really know the answer to that. The reasons are probably as many as the individuals. Their faith seems to be placed in scripture and their knowledge of scripture (which is not always clear, contrary to what many claim) as opposed to being directed to Jesus Christ and him crucified. For me, believing in Jesus Christ is something based on experience and what is written.

    I may be surprised about the age of the earth one day, but all I know is I wasn’t there when it happened so I can’t say for sure one way or the other. I won’t lie about it and I won’t deny material facts before my eyes either.


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    @ Muff Potter:

    I am referencing his book, “A Matter of Days”. It is a pretty heady book and a challenge to read for the non-scientific, but his brief work on the biblical languages is excellent(imo). He also directly addresses Ken Hamm and Answers in Genesis and takes them down(gracefully). For me the big “gotcha” is he asks Ken Hamm in a public debate, “How many people have you had come to faith for the first time due to your ministry?” Ken Hamm could not name one person. Ross goes on to list numerous scientists and academics who came to faith through the scientifically literate biblical understanding that he contends for….


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    nmgirl wrote:

    Why can’t they honestly say, “I don’t know”?

    Now there’s a question.

    Point 1 of 3: Not all the abusive, aggressive or otherwise scumbag people on earth are professing Christians. A lot of honest, struggling Christians who have never been paid to speak from a big platform feel under pressure to come up with answers they don’t really have, because they’ve been mocked by non-Christians (of whatever persuasion) precisely because they didn’t know something.

    Point 2 of 3: Christians can fall into presumptuous simplistic answering, of course. Sometimes, the belief in the sufficiency of scribsher creates delusions of competence, whereby Christians snatch at a “biblical” answer in the belief that since the Biblescribshers™ have all the answers, and I’ve read a book that quotes the bible, then I know everything worth knowing on the subject.


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    Brilliant Nick.

    @ Nick Bulbeck:


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Per Keller’s example, the main person I know at the moment who is seriously questioning Christianity, is not doing it for the reasons Keller assumes. In fact she may be asexual. So I think that tactic is more than a little presumptuous of Keller, and I remember it bothered me when I first read it (which was before I knew the person I mentioned was questioning). In context he may not have been throwing it out there as a universal truth – i.e., if your kid is questioning Christianity, they MUST BE having sex – but that’s how many will read it and, unfortunately, implement it in real life.

    And in case Dee or anyone else is interested, yes, it was YEC that started my friend down the questioning trajectory. Her mother recently asked her if I was a Christian after she found out I accept evolution and told one of her other daughters I have “bad views” on “some things.”


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      __

    “Calvinesta Obscene Gestures?” 

    hmmm…

    “flipping the doctrine…”

    “pushing the five points…”

    “giving the bible salute…”

    (It all means da same thing)

    It’s a way of saying “heretic You.”

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    (bump)

    Crash.

    Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every individual have praise of God…

    ‘Whosoever’ shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved.

    *

    Jesus: “In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places…I go to prepare a place for you!  If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also…”

    (smiley face goes here)

    Amazing Grace, comment doux le bruit ! 

    Sopy
    __
    J.J.Cale with Leon Russell -“After Midnight”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IZ9feKpJkk

    Bonus:  Walli Zamorano – “There Is A Place…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoRQozLmWvM

    ;~)


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    @ Hester:

    I agree that I wouldn’t personally go around blanket stating what Keller shared. But from my experience, very often we masquerade internal emotional struggles(sin, hurt, etc) with intellectual arguments.

    I forget who said it, but I like the idea that apologetics won’t make someone a Christian, but apologetics will get to the persons heart that their questions are covering for.

    My roommate in college is a perfect example of this. We went to the same highschool and were roommates for 2 years at college. He was a pretty typical cradle to grave atheist and I was a recently on fire Christian(walked away from faith in high school, came back sophomore year). We had a bunch of apologetics debates until late in the night. And I wiped the floor with him.

    Not claiming that I should be up there against Dawkins, but as far as this particular friend was concerned, he wasn’t prepared to deal with the arguments I had studied and were able to present. It wasn’t a fair matchup in all honesty and I was a bit too over zealous in my arguing.

    After our last long debate he sent me a long email. In it he admitted that he had no position to take anymore and that he accepted that what I had to say was arguably valid and defensible. BUT, he then went into a brief story about some heart achingly terrible life circumstances that he had experienced and BECAUSE of these he refused to even contemplate God. And if I ever mentioned God to him ever again he would never speak to me.

    I had become so hyperfocused on proving the validity of Christianity and the biblical worldview in opposition to his evolutionist/scientific world view that I had glossed over that he was a real person who was struggling with heart issues, not mind issues. I had won an argument but lost a person.

    I will never forget that and while I still enjoy and can utilize some apologetics, I am less concerned with arguing about creation vs evolution(and other such debates) and more concerned with knowing the persons heart and their hurt. I have never argued someone into faith, but I have seen people loved into faith.

    So when people say, I am not a Christian because “YEC”, I am not trying to discount the scientific validity of that issue, I am just convinced that old or young, the age of the Earth isn’t what keeps someone from experiencing the Gospel.


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    @ Hester:

    A few years ago, a work colleague asked me (in an astonished tone), You’re a Christian… and you like The Life of Brian?

    Though I think that merits a bit of a laugh, it does reflect what Christians have managed to earn a name for in the UK. There was a huge storm in a teacup back when TLoB was released, from people who obviously hadn’t seen it and were therefore able to claim that it was blasphemous.

    Incidentally, the only opinion I have on Jerry Springer: the opera is that I hate opera. Jerry Springer may or may not be a good opera, for them as likes opera.


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    Very powerful. I’m breathing a peaceful exhale. Thanks for writing this story out. This point needed to be made, and you did it better than I could have.

    @ Adam Borsay:


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Though I think that merits a bit of a laugh, it does reflect what Christians have managed to earn a name for in the UK. There was a huge storm in a teacup back when TLoB was released, from people who obviously hadn’t seen it and were therefore able to claim that it was blasphemous.

    Wasn’t just the UK. I remember the uproar out here in Calvary Chapel-land when it came out — like Homosexuality, Abortion, and Evolution all ganged up at once. Monty Python became The Antichrist, the Spawn of Satan until the next Cause du Jour came along. Sign of the End Times and all.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Incidentally, the only opinion I have on Jerry Springer: the opera is that I hate opera. Jerry Springer may or may not be a good opera, for them as likes opera.

    Only if Weird Al Yankovic is the composer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRcfDmkrhAI


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    So when people say, I am not a Christian because “YEC”, I am not trying to discount the scientific validity of that issue, I am just convinced that old or young, the age of the Earth isn’t what keeps someone from experiencing the Gospel.

    Much agreed Adam. More often than not the only ‘Gospel’ they will ever ‘hear’ is the way we treat them in the context of a shared and common humanity.


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    If YEC is not such a big issue, then why are YEC people making such a big issue of it?

    If YEC is a big issue for the proponents of YEC, then why would it not it be a big issue for those who do not believe YEC?

    So, looking at it from either angle, how can it be said that it is not a big issue?

    Granted, it is not a big issue for everybody, but that is a different question.

    Personally, I believe people who say that it is a big issue for them. Why would I not?


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    Just recently I read a book called “Why We Eat Our Own” by Michael Cheshire. It addresses, among other things, just how good churches are at shooting their own wounded, and how this has caused many to abandon both church and faith. I highly recommend it. It’s informative as well as entertaining. (And in the interests of full disclosure, I don’t know the author, and nobody paid me to recommend the book. However, I did receive a free copy of this book because it was briefly free for the Kindle a few weeks ago and I grabbed it.)


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    This comment by Tim Keller has sure made the rounds. If Keller said it, it must be true for all people and times. It is codswallop!

    In fact, let me put this to bed once and for all. I have been around the church for decades. I can well assure you that, within the walls of the church, people are having affairs, are involved with all kinds of abuse, lying, cheating ,extorting, hurting children, beating wives, arrogance, and on and on and on and on.

    They have no reason to make an excuse to get out the door so they can sin. They are doing the sinning just fine within the church. And some of them are the very pastors who make these confounded stupid statements.

    This sort of thinking is based in a belief that somehow people who are inside the church are somehow just a bit better than those outside the church. Those inside the church would never, ever fornicate, commit adultery, etc. They would need some sort of excuse to get out of the church to do so because the people inside the church, albeit totally depraved (Keller’s belief) are just a bit less totally depraved than those outside the church.

    I have news for Keller and everyone else who uses this approach. Let me hang around your church for about 6 months. I’ll give you a great list of all the sins going on inside at the end of that time.

    Oh yeah, and I would be on that list because I sure get angry when I hear that holier than thou nonsense coming out of people who should know better.

    Now, I can get back to thinking about the post tomorrow which will demonstrate quite well why no one needs to leave the church to sin.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    But the thought process informs my approach…

    I think your approach needs some adjustment. Unless, of course, you have the right kind of church in which sin is not practiced.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Just so you know, I have had the pleasure of dining with Hugh Ross. I have also attended lectures by him at Lattimer House in Birmingham as well as having hosted a retreat in which he was the main speaker.
    I have read a bunch of his stuff and heartily recommend his book on Job,


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    @ Hester:
    Look at my reply to Borsay. I think that statement by Keller is baloney.


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    StillWiggling wrote:

    Just recently I read a book called “Why We Eat Our Own” by Michael Cheshire.

    Reminds me of that one record album title during the height of Vietnam:
    The United States of America Eats Its Young


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    StillWiggling wrote:

    Why We Eat Our Own” by Michael Cheshire. It addresses, among other things, just how good churches are at shooting their own wounded, and how this has caused many to abandon both church and faith. I highly recommend it. I

    Thank you for the recommendation. We do eat our own and then we like to blame them when they get served up on the buffet line.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    So when people say, I am not a Christian because “YEC”, I am not trying to discount the scientific validity of that issue, I am just convinced that old or young, the age of the Earth isn’t what keeps someone from experiencing the Gospel.

    You gave us a couple of anecdotal experiences from your life. Suppose I could give you ones from my life that would point to YEC being jammed down some poor kids throat so that when he finally learns the truth, he questions everything else. I know a number of kids like that, having seen them in the family of friends.

    And, sadly, I have seen parents refuse to consider allowing their kids to believe anything else because YEC is gospel.

    But, it sure makes us feel better when we can blame them for leaving the faith instead of taking a good, hard look at how we “do” church.


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    @ gus:
    You are right. This has been around a long time. But they like to quote the supposed “experts” who are these days the official™ gospel™ experts. If it was said by Piper, Mohler, Grudem, Keller then it must be true. So they transpose an old story and “prove” it by the au courant experts.


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    mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    OH GOOD GRIEF. (Sorry to shout.) This infuriates the heck out of me. I’ve heard my ex-Mormon friends tell me that their families, their friends and their former church leaders all accuse them of *wanting to sin* or being in sin when they left the church.

    Do me a favor. Pray for me to calm down. I was so upset by this comment, my heart rate kicked up by 20 beats/min. I am so darned sick and tired of the old saw “you must want to sin” when you decide to leave the church.

    ROFL. This blog is 5 years old. We have written, as of today 1,426 posts. Well over half of them have to do with sin in the church. Christians are living examples of sinners who sin while staying in the church!
    Off to pace around to calm myself down.


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    @ dee:
    Dee, well said and articulates a shared view far better then I could have ever stated, thank you for saying it. As far as I can see, with forgiveness without consequences so easily available apparently, sin is not really a deterrent to Christians.


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    @ Nancy:

    I get it that people make it a big issue. Everyone has an issue that is the “big one” for them. But I think it always misses the mark.

    A number of years ago we had a grumpy man at our church come in to the office to demand that we stop preaching about miracles because, “they are ridiculous and are clearly not true”. The pastor asked him, “Well do you believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?” He responded, “Or course I do, I’m a Christian….”

    I share that to illustrate is that we often allow ourselves to get wrapped up in these issues and forget the core issue that shapes our understanding of the others. If Jesus did indeed die and rise again, then the other miracles of the bible make sense. You can’t start with whether or not a donkey spoke to Balaam and THEN try to jump to the resurrection. It is the proverbial carriage in front of the horse. Talking donkeys don’t prove/disprove Jesus, but Jesus can prove(or at least, make more reasonable to accept) the donkey.

    From where I am sitting, the issue is never “YEC”, but the Gospel. If people “leave” because of these other reasons I am convinced they either never accepted the Gospel, or, they have rejected the Gospel and the lower hanging fruit to criticize was “that” other issue.

    Whatever is true about the origins of life don’t have a huge effect on my faith, because my faith is not in that, but in the cross. Not that I don’t think there is a correct answer, it just isn’t the most important thing to “argue” about.

    I always preach that changing peoples behaviors and beliefs about certain issues isn’t really very eternally helpful. If I convinced someone to stop having pre-marital sex, donkeys can talk and evolution is not valid, but they still don’t know Christ, all I have done is created someone who agrees with me. But they are still without Christ. Even if and when there is a “right” answer on a theological issue, the right answer isn’t what saves you.

    In response to Dee, I didn’t mean to imply I am always looking for the “sin” boogeyman when someone states they are questioning their faith, or, they have no faith. I mean, that our intellectual questions/issues are usually an outflow of a heart issue. We all consciously and subconsciously protect our inner selves. The natural way this occurs is by talking about issues of the intellect instead of issues of the heart. I don’t want to convince someone that I am right intellectually, I want them to know they are loved.

    I don’t disagree that a hyperfocus on a secondary issue is damaging(such as YEC=Gospel). But I would still contend that if I have come to know the risen Christ an “evolving”(had to use that one) understanding of an issue doesn’t make me lose my faith because someone “misled” me on that particular issue.

    That’s why I would always encourage pastors, churches, parents, to focus on Christ crucified and risen and avoid drawing absolute lines in the sand that the bible doesn’t draw. When I first read “A Matter of Days” I had always been a YEC guy and never really questioned it. As I read the book I didn’t say, “Oh my, this whole thing must be hogwash”. I realized that it was a much more thorough and helpful approach to understanding the bible and creation. When I believed YEC Christ was still Lord, and, finding out YEC was wrong did not change that reality since it was never(and shouldn’t be) synonymous.


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    I’m not YEC.

    But sounds like some here are advocating to not allow the YEC’ers to preach what they believe?

    Might need to be careful what we wish for. If we succeed in squelching them, who might squelch us?


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    linda wrote:

    But sounds like some here are advocating to not allow the YEC’ers to preach what they believe?

    Oh, they are allowed to “preach” what they believe. But they must be prepared for significant pushback just like I get whenever I post my thoughts on that matter and many others.

    And, we are one of the few blogs that allow for people to express themselves in a fairly liberal matter. We rarely delete comments unlike some others. Go see our sections entitled “My Comment Was Deleted” to see who is really doing the squelching out there.


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    @ dee:

    Deebs I think of what one Sovereign Gracer I knew did. It was the uglyist thing I ever saw a Christian do. And he did it while boasting of how he was in the “healthiest church” he ever knew and of his sanctification. And he did something so disturbing and vile that it turned my life upside down to the point that I have had to manage it for the past year. But this guy has no doubts, he has the doctrine down perfectly! So how could he have committed such a horriffc sin that could brought great harm in my life.

    Christians love their myths. They make up excuses and pass the buck onto theother people. There are many Christians I just don’t trust. Some are beautiful others are repulsive.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    our intellectual questions/issues are usually an outflow of a heart issue.

    I disagree that this is “usually” a heart issue. In fact, you will read the testimony of Eagle one of these days. he asked all sorts of difficult questions about the problem of pain and evil. Those are great questions and, from where I sit, these questions needs to be answered and answered well.

    In your comment, you were hoping to blame the heart as “wanting to sin.” I think I took care of that reason. So, why don’t you explain to me what the heart issue is for wanting to understand the problem of pain? It would seem to me that this is a normal and thoughtful question to ask.
    Adam Borsay wrote:

    When I believed YEC Christ was still Lord, and, finding out YEC was wrong did not change that reality since it was never(and shouldn’t be) synonymous.

    And your experience, therefore, is the template for everyone else and their experience and their concerns?

    Take a look at the conversion of CS Lewis. I recently heard Jill Briscoe speak of listening to him on BBC as a teen. She heard his progress from atheist to agnostic to deist to Christian over the years. Many of his questions were those of evaluating the world around him. He attempted to define joy. he thought about issues such as pain and suffering and those thoughts made their way, eventually into books.

    Lewis was an intellectual. He knew of Christ and the Cross. But he had to have many questions answered before he crossed through the door and embraced Jesus. For many there are legitimate questions that need to be addressed and not everyone is looking for some “excuse” not to believe.


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    @ linda:
    Linda, I don’t care if they preach YEC. However I do NOT accept the YEC’er lying about what real science and scientists say.


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    Here’s one for you. I wish I’d thought of it myself, but actually it was my mate Mark from Inverness.

    Jesus didn’t specifically say, no-one comes to God except by me. He said, no-one comes to the Father except by me.

    There are many roads by which one might approach God, including (but not limited to) OT law, the law of the Koran, and even the New Testament law that fundamentalism has become in recent decades. And they’ll all give you a concept of God. But the only way to know God as Father is to see what God would be like if he were human.

    As the writer of ickleezyasstease put it:

    of the making of books, there is no end

    Attempting to pin down the humanity of God into a set of fundamentals is a futile business. It will throw up ever more caveats and anomalies, and your list of secondary, tertiary and quaternary doctrines will become longer and longer, and become more and more important. Legalism is a dark path, and as a wise green chap once said:

    Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny


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    @ dee:

    Why when these discussions come up does it seem like many Christians look at the person as half empty (totally depraved, questioning = sinful, evil heart), instead of the person asking questions as half full (wanting to know more, maybe the Holy Spirit is at work here, is God revealing himself)? Jesus didn’t shy away from questions or write people off.


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    @ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort: I’m trying to recall if you come from a liturgical church background (or not)?

    For me, the creeds stand and are vital, regardless of any political/rhetorical machinations that were going on at the time they were recorded (thinking especially of tne Nicene Creed here). As for the Athanasian Creed, I am very grateful that we have it just as it it… for one thing, it helps to counteract the whole notion that ESS has ever been a viable part of the church.

    I wish I understood you take better – but if you don’t want to elaborate, no worries!


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    One further point…
    you just told us that Hugh Ross has led many people to the Truth. Why is that? Was he just preaching Christ crucified or was he giving them “Reasons to Believe?”


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    linda wrote:

    I’m not YEC.
    But sounds like some here are advocating to not allow the YEC’ers to preach what they believe?
    Might need to be careful what we wish for. If we succeed in squelching them, who might squelch us?

    I don’t think anyone here would advocate for a yec’er not to say or speak what they believe. I think the real issue comes in when a person states that you have to believe or be a YEC’er in order to be a Christian. Which is not ok. For all I care you can believe in geocentrism or that the earth is a triangle with floating eyeballs and still be a Christian. The real point is that God is the Creator, Man is sinful and we need Jesus. I think our main problem comes in when a person states “You must believe in superficial literalism” In order to be saved. It takes away a person’s ability to have a walk with God, and allows for people to have control as we are seeing come out in so many churches and ministries. It also fosters great rebellion. (I.E new wave atheism, neo-paganism etc…)


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Tim Keller….asked, “who are you sleeping with?”

    Adam, I firmly agree with others here regarding Keller’s, “Who are you sleeping with?” to questions regarding the faith. I’d read this a while back, and brought it to my daughter and her friends, and also my friends’ kids, all of whom recently graduated college/university.

    The unanimous refrain (in paraphrase): “There’s something wrong with that guy! If he said that to me, I’d tell him how disgusting it is to hear genuine questions reduced to something personally devious. And besides, boundaries!”

    And most of them added something to the effect: “This is what I can’t stand about so much of Christianity….”


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    I am enjoying our conversation here, Adam. I think you are sincere. That does not mean that I agree with everything you say, but I do think that you sincerely believe what you say, and that is important.

    Let me tell a story from personal experience also. This is a true story. I do not make up or embellish or whatever. The reason I say that is not that the story is unbelievable, but rather that it is a bit too “appropriate” for this conversation, and isn’t that just a bit too handy. Nevertheless, it is a true story.

    The time was Easter Sunday when I was four years old. Four years and three months to be exact. We had moved to the country and were living a semi-rural life. This is pertinent to the story. My parents wanted to play the easter bunny brings a basket thing, and while I knew it was just a game (after all there were chickens out in the hen yard but no colored eggs out there, and there were rabbits from time to time in the yard, minus arms to carry baskets) but they wanted to pretend anyhow so I played along. So easter sunday morning I dutifully came down the steps, opened the front door, and there was no easter basket there. I looked at my parents, and they looked at each other and I watched them look at each other (children do this) and I KNEW. Not only is there is no easter bunny, there is also no santa clause, and there is no Jesus. They have lied to me. They are laughing at me for believing any of it. This is what I KNEW. To this day I can feel the shame that washed over me for having believed them in the first place.

    I do not know when I first believed in Jesus, but then and there was when I first doubted.

    This was not because I harbored some sin in my life. No doubt children can sin, but this was due to being lied to, or so I thought. I was not trying to “leave the faith” for some nefarious purpose. I just thought I knew lies when I saw them, and I had been betrayed by people who should not have betrayed me, or so I felt.

    Now listen, I had been betrayed in my eyes by Mom and Dad and Jesus. Those were the only supposed actual people in this scenario besides me. Well, that is childish thinking. Sure it is. But for people like we are discussing today, even adults, who do not believe in Jesus, and then they run into one of the “big issues” that somebody is trying to force them to believe but which the KNOW to be untrue, what kind of thinking do you think they will have? Will their faith in Jesus (which they do not have) carry them through the situation to even greater heights of faith (the same faith which they do not have) or will they label it all a sham, a hoax and a circus act and walk away? And walk away angry because the think they have been lied to. And sometimes they have been.

    I am not saying that you would be one to try to force anybody to do anything, but there are those who do. If you have not run into such people, be glad. I have dealt with some of them, and even as a adult believer I have come away bruised and angry (and I am not thin skinned.)

    So let me say again, I believe people in what they say. I make no conclusions about what they do not say. And lies, or even the perception of deceit, can have tragic results in people’s lives.


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    linda wrote:

    But sounds like some here are advocating to not allow the YEC’ers to preach what they believe?

    Might need to be careful what we wish for. If we succeed in squelching them, who might squelch us?

    Several of us here, Dee and I were together in “real life” on this one, got involved in a dust up so to speak when our church started teaching kids that “secular” science could not be trusted and was lying about many things because “real Christian science” could prove the earth was only 6000 years old. Then they started tossing kids and adults out of classes when they challenged this point.

    As I said. Believe the earth is 6000 or 2000 or 14 billion years old. But don’t make up the science you claim to support your answer. If you want to believe it was a miracle, well that’s you choice. And we can debate it. But teaching our kids and gullible adults that the science that drives most of the world you live in is a lie, well don’t go there.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Adam, I also agree with Nancy, Mirele, nm girl, and Bridget, adding this:

    People certainly do keep away from our faith over things like YEC and for very good reasons. YEC presents a reading of the Bible that leaves out the rest of the world. In so doing, it baldly lies, as others have said. People are not stupid and they look at the world-as-it-is and see what Christianity has to say about it. When the loudest segment goes in for YEC, even to Ham&Nye and entertainment museums, the only accurate assessment is contempt. Evolutionary theory is a non-issue ‘out there’. That’s not because it is wrong&secular but because most educated types have long known what you read in Ross’ book (even if without the Biblical subtext).

    And unfortunately, it is not only YEC. There are many variations of stupidity parading as doctrine in the US church. Why they also, like YEC, tend to be loudest among us is beyond my understanding.

    As for those inside the church who leave because of YEC or whatever, yes, you are correct that it is because they haven’t been able to find the God who is there. You ask, “Are we placing our hope and trust in Christ, or people?” An excellent question.

    But rather than load all the blame onto them, as you do, you should seriously reconsider Deb’s/Dee’s position. People who’ve never experienced good-enough intimate relationships (and there are as many inside the church as outside) will be most deeply yearning for what Christ offers, and also most ignorant of what it means to be in relationship with Him. They are least equipped to sift through crap that is blended with Christianity, and most in need of mature believers to show them, through relationship and experience and teaching, what is/ isn’t healthy and what kind of God we worship.

    So where you put all the blame onto these hurting people, a greater part of the blame is on those who are presuming maturity and leadership but do not do their jobs. Perhaps they do not themselves yet understand the meaning of a genuine relationship with the God Who is Love, in which case, they need to be released to do that work for themselves. Or perhaps they are working in an area where their gifts don’t lie, in which case, they should be placed where their actual gifts can thrive and then this gaping hole in the faith community can be properly filled.

    Adam, you cannot preach truly effective sermons without understanding these fundamental issues in humanity.


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    Nancy wrote:

    So let me say again, I believe people in what they say.

    That sentence needs some clarification. What I mean is this. If somebody tells me that the sky is falling, I believe that their sky is falling (whatever that means) and I believe they have told the truth as they were experiencing it at that time. I do not mean that I dive under the bed to avoid falling bits of sky.

    And yes, they taught me this in school.


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    @ Patrice:

    That is one of the best statements I have heard on this issue. Maybe you might want to keep a copy of that and re-post it from time to time in the future. It bears repeating.


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    To try to clarify…I would NEVER advocate saying to someone who says, “What about evolution” that I am sure they are sinning based on the fact that they would dare ask such a question. Perhaps I poorly illustrated what I was intending to mean, which is, hearts are what are at stake ultimately, not minds. And hearts drive our thinking and logical reasoning ability a lot more than we often care to admit or are even aware of.

    As for Hugh Ross’s “success” I would contend, and I think he would probably agree from what I have read of his, that he didn’t make someone become a Christian because he had such good reasoning skills that they had to acquiesce to his superior intellect and facts and therefore convert. But that instead, he answered their questions in such a way that the road blocks that they perceived being in the way of having faith could be removed. And then they could do the real heart work of knowing Christ.

    I don’t have any problem with questions at all. I don’t like pastors and churches that run in fear from them, or, act like they are the devils work. I just wanted to indicate that if we can’t “argue” someone into becoming a Christian by force of will, we can’t argue them out of it either.

    As far as my approach to dealing with peoples honest questions, one the first friends I made when we came to our current town is the owner of this extreme tattoo/piercing place. Extreme meaning they are also the main place in about 400 miles to do suspension(giants hooks in the body and swinging around on ropes). My relationship with them has developed to the point that we are co-hosting an “Ask a Pastor Anything” event at the shop. Neither the owner or his employees are believers in any capacity. But we have great conversations and we like to hang out. When I asked if he would be interested in me having an open forum where people could ask anything(related to all the kinds of conversations we have) they wanted to he thought it was an awesome idea.

    Knowing the group there I can tell you that the questions are going to be all over the place. Evolution, being mistreated by a church, hell, drugs, weird piercings, etc. I don’t have any misconceptions that me gracefully listening and responding to their questions is going to “convert” anyone. So I am not bringing my portable baptismal along…..But I want to convey the heart that questions are ok and that they matter as people. I am not even brining “cheat sheets” with pat answers. I plan on having to say often, “I am not sure, that’s a really good question, would you be willing for me to look into that and get back with you?”

    If anyone took what I had to say as trying to intellectually gloss over legitimate heart ache and tough questions I am sorry. What I was trying to communicate is that peoples hearts matter more to me than their minds. Which doesn’t mean their minds are without value, and great value at that!


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    @ linda:
    I would like to comment to you, based on the last I wrote to Adam which is in moderation as this will also be for certain words lol.

    I have no problem with people being YEC, if they wish. But it is an ignorant and dumb position. I have believed stupid things in my life, and still am hugely ignorant/dumb about such fundamentals as how to-be-in a healthy intimate-relationship. So when I write these words, I don’t mean that as a “Wow, I am much better than them over there, so shush up.” I am simply trying to be accurate.

    YEC sees the earth’s origins/past either as an astonishing series of continual miracles, or as if God played a gigantic trick on us, setting it all up “as if it is ancient” but actually only a few thousand years old. Neither works at all, and the latter is self-evidently against the character of God (unless we redefine Him as Loki).

    But let’s take the miracles-R-everywhere idea. The Bible spends a great deal of time on law. There are many principles built into creation, stable ongoing principles that, although they change in application, stay consistent in reality. And the Bible spends quite a bit of time on these things. In fact, it’s writers went so far as to say that God Himself is seen inside His creation, so that humans have no excuse. Further, the laws of God are written on all humans’ hearts. Thus the Bible itself demonstrates that the world was built on stable contours.

    And it is because of this stability that scientists have been able to build theories, working from generation to generation to build/refine them, or change them, as the case may be.

    So, to insist in the face of this, that creation and the earth’s past emerged via wild and wonderful flashes-and-dashes of miracles, well, it’s just dumb. Christians can believe it if they want to, of course, but it is not at all thoughtful.

    But the greatest damage of such beliefs is that those who don’t know God see His believers hyping such as YEC, and don’t bother to look further.

    So IMO, to call the YEC ideology of my fellow Christians, who already know God, stupid and wrong, is a mere impoliteness compared to how YEC acts as a stumbling block for those who might otherwise look closer at the wonderful God of All we are privileged to know.


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    NC Now wrote:

    linda wrote:
    But sounds like some here are advocating to not allow the YEC’ers to preach what they believe?
    Might need to be careful what we wish for. If we succeed in squelching them, who might squelch us?
    Several of us here, Dee and I were together in “real life” on this one, got involved in a dust up so to speak when our church started teaching kids that “secular” science could not be trusted and was lying about many things because “real Christian science” could prove the earth was only 6000 years old. Then they started tossing kids and adults out of classes when they challenged this point.
    As I said. Believe the earth is 6000 or 2000 or 14 billion years old. But don’t make up the science you claim to support your answer. If you want to believe it was a miracle, well that’s you choice. And we can debate it. But teaching our kids and gullible adults that the science that drives most of the world you live in is a lie, well don’t go there.

    I think my favorite fundraiser from one of the teachers in that church was selling “Jewish” calenders from some minister that had the day of creation on it…..ummmm urgh….BLECH!!!!!


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    Fair enough, Adam. I think perhaps you need to think more carefully about, that’s all, digging your knowledge deeper with empathy until you come out the other end, entertaining what anyone brings to the table as openly as you are doing to the Tatooines, w00t

    Yes, people do not become convinced of a relationship with God via reason. But they will not even be attracted to Him when His loudest proponents insist on various packages of intellectual foolishness. We are a unity of mind/soul/body (or however we want to parse ourselves). We come best to our God with our whole selves but God will use whatever aspect seems most open to draw us to Him, to a relationship.

    I want so very much for us all to get out of the way of His wonderful work.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Do you reject every single person who believes or espouses something that YOU feel is demonstrably false?

    Of course I don’t reject everyone that says something demonstrably false. That would be silly. Everyone misstates or has an incorrect idea in their head, including me.

    That said, I hold preachers and teachers of YEC like Ken Ham, Kent Hovind, Eric Hovind, etc., to a higher standard. Ken Ham has been on the podium with people who have explained to him *patiently* what the facts are, and he stubbornly refuses to budge. And that’s because he carries a presupposition that the Bible is literally true. He cannot look past that. And he comes up with some CRAZY ideas, which you can see in full display on the Answers In Genesis site.

    For example, he tells kids on his site that a light year is not a measure of time, but one of distance. Consequently when someone uses “millions of light years”, it’s actually just a “very long distance away,” and not “a very long time ago.” He then goes on to reiterate that the universe is only 7,000 years old.

    The problem with that is it’s a LIE. Told to children. And he fails to mention that when we look up in the sky at the (for example) Andromeda Galaxy, we’re not only looking at something that is two million light years away, but also two million years ago in time. A light year is a measure of not only distance, but also how long ago it took for the light to get here. One of the things I find absolutely amazing is that when you look at the Andromeda Galaxy, photons that were sent from the combined starpower of that galaxy two milllion or so years ago are hitting the rods and cones in the back of your eye and making the smudge you see. But Ken Ham can’t tell the kids any of that because he is forced by his presupposition to lie about provable scientific facts.

    For the record, astronomers prefer to use the measurement “parsec” to talk about distances, but I find that number hard to use because I memorized how many miles were in a light year (5,878,000,000,000) back when I was about eight years old. But even if you changed the terminology, Ken Ham would still be wrong. And he persists in pushing this garbage off on the general public, and it has effects all through education and science. And that’s a serious problem in an era of scientific illiteracy, which in part occurs because people like Ken Ham refuse to acknowledge facts and stick to their presuppositions.


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    @ dee & Adam Borsay:

    Suppose I could give you ones from my life that would point to YEC being jammed down some poor kids throat so that when he finally learns the truth, he questions everything else. I know a number of kids like that, having seen them in the family of friends. And, sadly, I have seen parents refuse to consider allowing their kids to believe anything else because YEC is gospel.

    This is exactly what happened to my friend. Once the arguments for evolution first made sense to her, she started to question everything else in the Bible. And as I said above, now that her mother knows I accept evolution, she’s questioning my Christianity – even though I go to church every week, am an employee of my church, work/volunteer in many other churches, run an explicitly Christian blog, and am involved in explicitly Christian ministries/blogs through the internet. Her mother knows that I do most of those things. And yet, evolution. So she wonders if I am “really” Christian.

    And Adam, I think this may be the crux of what several people here are trying to communicate. It’s clear from your comments that you always had a healthy separation between YEC and the Gospel. That’s great, and it’s absolutely necessary. But a lot of the people Dee and I are talking about, were raised to think of them as one and the same thing…and I’m not exaggerating even a little bit. In fact Ken Ham and others explicitly teach that an old earth destroys the Gospel because it requires a rethinking of how death came into the world (basically). So people who are considering rejecting Christianity because of YEC, truly may not be able to distinguish YEC from the Gospel, because they were taught that they are a package deal and don’t know that there’s any other way to think about them.

    Ham and company also explicitly teach that if Genesis 1-3 is not literally true, then we would be justified in wholesale rejecting the rest of the Bible. No considerations of genre, archaeology, extrabiblical sources, anything like that. Just, metaphorical Genesis = all of Scripture is bullhonkey. You see now why people raised like my friend, immediately question the whole rest of the Bible once YEC falls apart. They’re doing exactly what they were trained to do.


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    @ mirele:

    Not to mention Hovind Sr. is currently in the slammer – though that was for something to do with taxes, not YEC.


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    Since there has been a hurling of correction on you Adam, (though a great group of intelligent people) I just have to say that honestly, when I read your thoughts, I took away what you just clarified and I didn’t at all think you were blaming the person who questions. I think we all really bring a load of our own experience and touch points to any comment, and rapid fire doesn’t allow for deep thought and perspective sometimes.

    I will add that I’m truly lucky that the person who I peppered with questions as I dipped a toe towards the bible (something I had long thought was for morons and sheltered people) was a taxi driver who I saw every day. And he was so humble, and calm and if he didn’t know, he said so but asked back to me some questions for thought. So I dig your idea of being open with people in a setting you described coming up.

    I didn’t have the exact experience of many here of being in a ridgid fundamental church- but make no mistake, every person has fires of truth and deception from all kinds of sources.
    We all have a spiritual path- and there are all sorts of things in and out of church walls that might make us crave a real union with God. I rejected the whole nonsense at 19 after years of Catholic church growing up. Did they lie to me? Maybe some did. Maybe some really deeply believe in what they taught me. But my path was my own- there is no other soul like me. (Or any of us). So through trials I went… Story another time. It’s a beautiful story. But certainly not without intense suffering.

    Overall, the jist of this whole post is about Christians being partly to blame for others leaving the faith. I can truly see all sides, but your earlier comment about whether we are devoted to God or to people and a church and the implications of that difference really resonated with me.

    I may not have made any friends just now but I’m pretty invisible on here anyway and hope my thoughts added some light for someone. 🙂

    @ Adam Borsay:


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    Jackie wrote:

    I just have to say that honestly, when I read your thoughts, I took away what you just clarified and I didn’t at all think you were blaming the person who questions.

    That’s interesting! I’ve been gone from Evangelical Christianity for a long time. Have you been inside it for a long time?

    Since I’ve been online with Evangelicals (the last year), I’ve had to recalibrate my vocabulary, and then recalibrate again when I read my other blogs and when I talk to people in my life (most of whom travel along the edges of the church proper, or don’t at all).

    The language inside the church is obscure to those outside. Outsiders hear it heavily inflected with moral criticism and guilt. By that I don’t mean when talking specifically of moral criticism and guilt, but as a tendency of words chosen throughout. There are many insider phrases with innuendo and overlays that aren’t understood by others, phrases that on-their-face don’t sound at all inviting.

    Another thing that I found when I came into the blogs, is the huge emphasis on theology and all its attendant academic words specifically tuned to the Scriptures. It was strange to me, even though brought up in a Reformed parsonage.


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    Bridget

    I believe that we Christians sometimes mistakenly separate the heart from the intellect . The heart can inform the intellect and vice versa. They are both part of our complex makeup. Sometimes,when I begin to understand the complexities of human development, my heart becomes excited because I know our God is complex. Some of us relate better in the intellectual realm and others in a more heart/emotional way and some of us are a mixup. It is all good becasue that is how God made us.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    As for Hugh Ross’s “success” I would contend, and I think he would probably agree from what I have read of his, that he didn’t make someone become a Christian because he had such good reasoning skills that they had to acquiesce to his superior intellect and facts and therefore convert. But that instead, he answered their questions in such a way that the road blocks that they perceived being in the way of having faith could be removed. And then they could do the real heart work of knowing Christ.

    But that is precisely the point. There are people who leave the faith because people in the church put roadblocks in the way-be it science or whatever. Just like those scientists who would not come to the faith because of the stupid roadblocks put up by people like Ken Ham and others.

    This is not some excuse to go on sinning on their part. They truly believe that one cannot become a Christian if being a Christian means believing that the universe is 6-10,000 years old. I know a number of scientists who have been told that they had to believe that to be a Christian. This is a sin on the part of the church. We keep people out of our churches and cause our children to fall away due to a rigid adherence to a secondary doctrine that has absolutely nothing to do with salvation.

    My husband (a doctor) and I( a nurse) are involved in a ministry that reaches out to Christian doctors and dentists-especially those in their early training years. We live in an area with a number of medical schools. These are smart people. A small group of med students shared with us that they were studying The Language of God by Francis Collins.They were relieved by Collins ability to see God in evolution. So many of them had been turned off by churches that insisted on a restricted view of science. Yet they see the science and are told they cannot believe that science because “the Bible tells them differently.”

    I am so grateful that my husband and I have come to peace with this subject so that we can be of encouragement to those who deal with science in a very real way every day of their lives. I can assure you that their intellect causes them to ask thoughtful questions. God gave them their intellect and they use it. I am blessed to be able to be part of their journey. We must be prepared to answer both the heart and the head-both of which were created by God to be of use to us in this life.


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    dee wrote:

    This is not some excuse to go on sinning on their part. They truly believe that one cannot become a Christian if being a Christian means believing that the universe is 6-10,000 years old. I know a number of scientists who have been told that they had to believe that to be a Christian. This is a sin on the part of the church.

    Yes! Christians are so peculiar about sin. They do not understand that when they misuse/reject knowledge, they are sinning. They do not understand that when they lack enough empathy to understand why their neighbor does what he/she does, they are sinning. Etc.

    They sin just as much as those who don’t believe, but they do not accept that. And that is also a sin. 😛


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    Eagle wrote:

    In my story which will be told one day

    STOP TEASING US EAGLE!!!!

    (seriously, been looking forward to reading about your journey for a while)


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    It’s like saying(imo) that I left the faith because of those crazy snake handlers down in Kentucky….Sure those crazy snake handlers are weird and it is a non-biblical practice….but to decide that faith is completely invalid because some people are pushing a ridiculous doctrine is lazy and dishonest.

    It would certainly be silly for you or me to reject Christianity because of snake handlers, agreed, because our own experiences have been so different. But what if we had grown up in an isolated rural community in a snake handling church? I think that if I had grown up believing that if there is a god, then he requires me to prove my faith by handling poisoning snakes and then if he finds that there is some degree of uncertainty in me, then he will punish me by having me die in excruciating agony from a bite….. Well, I don’t think I would believe in a god at all.

    My heart goes out to young people who grow up in cults, legalistic churches, and churches which call science unBiblical and I do think their leaders are to blame for driving people away. I think I have posted before about visiting a church in my own denomination where there was a whiteboard in a Sunday School room with a lesson where all the sciences were put in a red circle with a line through it and that was juxtaposed against a Bible. (I never heard anything like that in my own church!). That church I am told wondered where all their young adults had gone after college.

    I am not concerned with what the responsibility of people who leave the faith is, that is not under my control. I am concerned with my own responsibility and I hope I never taught anything to my middle schoolers in Sunday School that contributed in any way to any one leaving the Church. I think that is the approach we have to take as mature Christians and not put all the blame on those leaving.


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    Oh thanks for those thoughts- I related to your whole comment! Funny that I don’t even know how to answer whether I’ve been “inside” for a long time. I’ve had a steady deep faith for many years after a profound rebirth (for lack of a better word), and all the while a pretty scattered church hopping that outwardly wouldn’t make much sense.

    I’ve lived in a few different places, and church was always something that I “added” to my journey. It was never central. Not sure if that’s good or bad- that’s just my story. I just sought and attended to hear something to keep my focus towards Him. But mostly, I had a little pocket bible that I read before sleeping. And prayed.

    So- to your points about language, blogs, theology… Oh man, I relate. What you said about the obscure language that seems not inviting- if I understand you correctly- that’s so much of everything! I could only think of a book I read “My Utmost for His Highest” regularly and how I feel it’s a drink of pure water and to some it would sound harsh and convicting. I welcome the conviction.

    And as I’ve been only in the last 6ish months reading online so much regarding different theologies- my head was spinning. Seriously! (Still does). At first I thought- I’m over my skies even commenting on any of this – it seemed that people had so much knowledge, and they do- but then I realize I have something to add.

    @ Patrice:


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    Daisy wrote:

    I heard somewhere or read somewhere, and I can’t remember where, but one Christian guy (who was not a fundy) was talking with a Christian ex fundy, and Christian guy said something about, “Don’t fundamentalist churches teach from the book of Galatians?,” and the Ex said, “No. They pretend like it doesn’t exist.”

    A fair proportion of the fundies I know spend a lot of time & energy saying that the book of Galatians is intended to criticize Catholics, and ONLY Catholics. (The “whore of Babylon”, & ” the poor papists” get dragged in a lot).


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    Oh, goody! I am in moderation!! I knew that would happen; computers cannot recognize my finely tuned sarcasm as such. They assumed I was one of the name-calling fundies myslef. 😉


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    Love this. Said so well.

    @ dee:


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    mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    If Ken Ham told me the sun was coming up in the East, I’d have a look out the window, because he lies, he lies more and he lies even more. He is *that* untrustworthy. I’d be nuts to believe him if he says he knows the way to salvation.

    Me too. I think Ken Ham is so obviously both crazy & a liar, that anything he says is instantly suspect. (Even if I believed it 10 minutes ago.)


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    Hmmm…..

    I think that the point of this post is found in the title: “Why Some Christians Should Share the Blame for Those Leaving the Faith.” (Emphasis mine)

    I don’t think anyone has suggested that the Christians in question should take all the blame. But I have read in some of the comments the idea the the one leaving should atke all the blame. It seems to me this is part of the attitude that drives people away. I know it is suggestive of the types of attitudes I got from abusers growing up. I.e., it was never their fault if I got hurt, even if they were the one who physically abused me. So….I firmly believe that legalistic Christians with rigid demands that secondary doctrine or dogma must be believed to you are not a real Christian are absolutely to blame (in part) for those who leave the faith.

    In my own experience, it was the consistent – insistent – portrayal of God as an angry father who would punish you to hell if you stepped out of line that almost derailed my faith. I still struggle with that image of him that was ingrained in me growing up and re-enforced by the parental and authority figures in my life doing exactly that (well, not literal hell, but…). Because here’s the thing….if God is really like that (and here’s the really hard one for me) if he was behind the abuse I suffered in order to do ….. will, I’ve never really got a clear answer on why he would want to do that to anyone. But if he was behind it (and I have been told,vehemently, that he was), then I am not okay with that.

    Okay – here is something recorded as Jesus’ words that illustrates my perspective on these Christians….

    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!” –Matthew 18:6 & 7 NKJV


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    dee wrote:

    Do me a favor. Pray for me to calm down. I was so upset by this comment, my heart rate kicked up by 20 beats/min. I am so darned sick and tired of the old saw “you must want to sin” when you decide to leave the church.

    Pray for ME to calm down. I see stuff like that and my blood pressure goes up. It’s not good for me.

    I have to get out of this mode (famous cartoon from xkcd): http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png


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    numo wrote:

    I’m trying to recall if you come from a liturgical church background (or not)?

    For me, the creeds stand and are vital, regardless of any political/rhetorical machinations that were going on at the time they were recorded (thinking especially of tne Nicene Creed here). As for the Athanasian Creed, I am very grateful that we have it just as it it… for one thing, it helps to counteract the whole notion that ESS has ever been a viable part of the church.

    I wish I understood you take better – but if you don’t want to elaborate, no worries!

    Not liturgical. I learned the Nicene Creed at university in an Early Christian History class (part of the final was to go through and briefly explain certain phraseology). However, your point about ESS and the creeds is very well taken and I will think about it.


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    Hester wrote:

    Not to mention Hovind Sr. is currently in the slammer – though that was for something to do with taxes, not YEC.

    Yep, I am very well aware that Hovind Sr. is a guest of the Federal Bureau of Prisons right now. In fact, Hovind overlaps with one of my other interests: “sovereign citizens.” Hovind has long (since the mid-1990s) believed that he is not subject to the laws of the federal government, but obviously that hasn’t worked out real well for him.

    I wonder if the IRS will go after him for failing to pay his assessed arrearages once he gets out of prison (his current sentence is for failing to pay payroll taxes and for structuring withdrawals to avoid reporting requirements).


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      __

    “Unraveling The Pain And Pointing The Way To Genuine Authentic Hope, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Everyone has experienced pain. Yep.  Some, lots of it (sadface) Yet, not everyone knows how to handle it or free oneself from it’s possible long-term effects. 

    huh?

    How does one receive genuine authentic hope freeing oneself from pain and disillusionment?

    What?

    “If pain is not confronted, it can rob life’s joy. That is ‘never’ God’s desire. Pain that has been processed, is nourishment to the soul.  How many of us need help, ” in how to process the hurt. We get bogged down in the suffering, and life becomes un-productive.” – Gary Chapman

    How many times must you ask yourself, “When is my life not gonna suck?”

    Maybe this (currently free) book can help:

    “When Will My Life Not Suck?” by Ramon Presson

    http://www.dccebooks.com/products/when-will-my-life-not-suck

    Sometimes a friend needs to be reminded of God’s love…(tear) His eyes are upon da widdle sparrow,

    ATB

    Sopy
    ___
    Inspirational relief: Clint Brown- “If Not For Grace”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL05MOi26Qg

    Past Pain & Eternal Joy: singer/songwriter, Steven Curtis Chapman – “Shares About His Family Tragedy”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqYQLrRlVAI


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    Definition of fundamentalism:

    I have a definition of fundamentalism that I think works, but I will get to that in a minute. The original term “fundamentalism” came from the reaction to 19th century liberal theology. The five “fundamentals” that came out of this were these:

    1) inspiration of the bible by the Holy Spirit
    2) virgin birth of Christ
    3) Christ’s death was an atonement for sin
    4) bodily resurrection of Christ
    5) historical reality of Christ’s miracles
    (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist%E2%80%93Modernist_Controversy )

    I think the problem with this was that although these were long standing beliefs of historic Christianity, the intense focus on these fundamentals led people to believe that the faith could be REDUCED to a set of fundamentals. This leads me to my personal definition of “fundamentalism.”

    Fundamentalism: the reduction of the entire Christian faith to a core set of fundamentals.

    Anything outside of the fundamentals is seen as outside of the faith, and therefore sin. But every fundamentalist group has its own fundamentals. This is why they can damn each other to hell over the smallest detail of doctrine. One group’s fundamentals might be the bible, the virgin birth, the resurrection and women not wearing pants. Another group might have the same with the last being Satanic inspiration of red letter bibles, or no drinking, or King James only, or homeschooling or opposition to internet dating.


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    @ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
    If I recall correctly, Hoban not only took his wife down with him, but left his employees holding big tax bills. Class act, that guy.


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    Will do, Dee!


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       __

    Tears over Wartburg Watch’s  Sky’s?

    hmmm…

    Jackie wrote:

    And as I’ve been only in the last 6ish months reading online so much regarding different theologies- my head was spinning. Seriously! (Still does). At first I thought- I’m over my skies even commenting on any of this – it seemed that people had so much knowledge, and they do- but then I realize I have something to add.

    *

    Jackie,

    hey there!

    Brovo !

    Many of us, if  da truth be known, are over our heads daily, yet, thanks to the love of our God,  the fellowship of kind hearted readers & commenters like yourself, we muddle through…

    -snicker-

    I am glad you found your ‘voice’, and believe in yourself enough to share it!

    Wartburg Watch’s skys R’ that way  IMHO with all of us,

    Blessings!

    Sopy
    __
    Eric Clapton – “Tears in Heaven”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmLQes4tmtM

    John Mayer – “Crossroads” LIVE In Toronto
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKltSZN48zE

    ;~)


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    @Dee – maybe you need to take up yoga, or perhaps kick boxing or punching a punching bag might help. 🙂


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    @Nick – LOVE your statement about Jesus being the way to the Father, and the difference between that and the way to God.


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    Steve Scott wrote:

    Fundamentalism: the reduction of the entire Christian faith to a core set of fundamentals.

    Which soon becomes The Party Line.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    instead, he answered their questions in such a way that the road blocks that they perceived being in the way of having faith could be removed. And then they could do the real heart work of knowing Christ.

    Let me see if I understand. Somebody engaged the cognitive portion of some people’s brains in such a way that they could resolve their issues with whatever issues they had, and then they could do something non-cognitive to enable them to know Christ. At which point, they could then join the chorus of those who have issues with other (Christian) issues on a cognitive level, while all the time believing that cognition keeps people from Christ.


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    @ Steve Scott:

    Is it just inspiration of the Bible, or inspiration and inerrancy? Because those positions often make for very different ways of thinking about the Bible. Also one of those two camps spends a lot of time denouncing the other (and I’m sure you know which camp I’m referring to).


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    Steve Scott wrote:

    I think the problem with this was that although these were long standing beliefs of historic Christianity, the intense focus on these fundamentals led people to believe that the faith could be REDUCED to a set of fundamentals. This leads me to my personal definition of “fundamentalism.”
    Fundamentalism: the reduction of the entire Christian faith to a core set of fundamentals.

    You’ve expressed it really well there, Steve – wish I’d thought of that! *

    It’s a truism that if I take up a position specifically in order to correct someone else’s imbalance, I can only end up just as unbalanced myself.

    * This is because I’m vain, covetous and selfishly ambitious, and overall am thoroughly up myself.


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    Hester wrote:

    Is it just inspiration of the Bible, or inspiration and inerrancy? Because those positions often make for very different ways of thinking about the Bible.

    It’s a funny thing, but I’d never thought of it in quite those terms until I read this comment of yours, Hester. I mean specifically that I’d never thought of quite how vast a difference there is between those two.

    Expressed mathematically:
    | (Inspiration) | – | (Inspiration + Inerrancy) | ≫ 0

    Which effectively reduces to

    |(Inerrancy)| ≫ 0

    In other words, inerrancy is a huge claim.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Regardless of the widespread acceptance of YEC it does not justify jettisoning faith because some people are wrong about an issue.

    But it does justify jettisoning that a particular sub-culture within the faith if the “some people” make their erroneous belief a cornerstone of their understanding of the faith; if they have built a whole portion of their house on sand, and insist that others do so also. There are other subcultures of the faith with which to align oneself.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    Hey Johnny!
    *waves from southern England* Great to have you hear & read your post.
    Please ignore Seneca’s undercurrents of blame towards you – that really you want to sin so you’re hiding it behind apparently intellectual/other reasons – he’s a little bit simple that way in that he’s unable to broaden his horizons past what he can imagine himself doing. We’re not all like that, but he can’t grasp this.
    Anyway, welcome.

    Seneca provides a very helpful illustration of the article’s point: Christians dont want responsibility for people who leave. I think its interesting that I was always taught that drinking or immodest dress could “stumble my brother” in a way that makes me responsible, but abuse and lying are “just used to cover their real motives for leaving.” I think we need to remember what Jesus said about harming someone’s faith and stop using “stumbling” to control things that should be left to conscience.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: Inerrancy results in Nebuchadnezzar writing part of the OT, as does a donkey.


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    @ Nancy:

    The problem is that kids raised in “YEC necessary to faith” churches, when confronted with scientific evidence that is clearly contradictory to YEC, then question EVERYTHING that they were taught in church, including their own salvation, because it appears that all of it was based on a lie. And they leave, rather than deal with the dissonance and resolve it in favor of faith without YEC.

    And it is not necessary that the church be entirely YEC, just some of the people there, who are not contradicted by others in the church. My son is in this category. Neither his mother nor I are YEC, although she was agnostic on the issue for some of his early years, and few (none) in our church communities, over time, were strong advocates for YEC. But it has taken a toll on his ability to believe.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:
    Oh one more thought…..
    There is a quote that I believe originated from Tim Keller that has served me very well when interacting with those in the process of leaving the faith…
    He tells a story about working with college students who were asking a lot of questions in which they were challenging thinks like creation vs evolution and indicating that they were on their way out the door. Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?” And it was almost universally across the board that they were indeed having sex, or, some other manner of sexual sin. To paraphrase(poorly) Keller contends that at the heart of what we often feel are legitimate questions is the desire to be justified in sin(and often sexual sin). So while the questions are not themselves invalid, the problem is the heart, not the mind.
    To clarify I DO NOT ask this question like he does in the story he tells. But the thought process informs my approach…

    I can’t even. Keller’s story (if he told it) sounds like a convenient “preacher story”- “this one time, a perfect circumstance proved what I am telling you, no dates or names though, just trust me it was awesome.”

    Also, if that “informs your thought processes,” it keeps you from respecting people’s confidences and makes it way to easy to dismiss them. Which is the point of this kind of thinking. “Anyone who questions our interpretation/authority hust has a problem with morality/God/submission to authority etc.

    Plus, you may come across as a tool.


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    There are folks out there who say that you don’t have to be a “christian” in order to be a follower of Jesus. Now some of that may be just aggravated individualism, but then again the more mess that goes on in the name of “christianity” the more I wonder if the time might not come when one would have to choose between the two–christianity or Jesus. Before you all denounce me as whatever, there was a time when Jesus told the Jews it’s me or some of your traditions. There was the reformation when people had to choose between the catholic church and the reformers. This sort of thing happens.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Oh one more thought…..
    There is a quote that I believe originated from Tim Keller that has served me very well when interacting with those in the process of leaving the faith…
    He tells a story about working with college students who were asking a lot of questions in which they were challenging thinks like creation vs evolution and indicating that they were on their way out the door. Instead of answering those specific questions he asked, “who are you sleeping with?” And it was almost universally across the board that they were indeed having sex, or, some other manner of sexual sin. To paraphrase(poorly) Keller
    contends that at the heart of what we often feel are legitimate questions is the desire to be justified in sin(and often sexual sin). So while the questions are not themselves invalid, the problem is the heart, not the mind.

    I really don’t want to upset you again Dee by reposting this, but I just gotta be extremely vulnerable here on this subject to answer some fundie points brought up.
    On one note, I believe one thing that led my brother to atheism by YEC was not necessarily the actual YEC teachings from fundies but the condescending tone of people like my father against my brother’s questionings long before he attended college and he had never even learned the theory of evolution because we were not allowed to. Now, maybe he at a very young age was ‘active’ with himself as so many very very young people are and not just boys, which brings me to a vulnerable point here which will answer another commenter who is refuting that Christians can cause people to turn away from the faith.
    The activity I am referring to was never mentioned as far as I remember in my home so it was never even said that it was a sin. My fundie baptist school psychology teacher who was also the counselor and the principle’s wife had the duty of talking to us 14 year old freshman group of girls about the birds and the bees just before our supposedly first courting experience which was the Valentine banquet. She told us that women do not have sex drives and since men do then that means that we should never be alone with them because if something happens it would be all our fault because they can’t say no when alone with a girl. She actually used the term ‘ladies of the night’ to describe the only kind of women who liked sex. Oh wow, was I in trouble because as I sat there in my seat realizing that I indeed had a drive so now I determined that I was lost because her way of thinking made me label myself as either a whore or a lesbian, a lesbian because I thought that was a man trapped in a women’s body, don’t get me wrong, I liked boys not girls, but my whole life of the fundies fighting me on wanting girls sports and other typically boy interests like trucks and outdoor stuff suddenly made sense. Then, by the time I had my date with the senior boy and then had more dates eventually I was alone with him and it was bad, very very bad and a long story from there. By the time I was 17 I told my dad that I wanted nothing to do with this god he raised me to believe in.
    So my point? Even IF you think that there is ANY merit to the Tim Keller notion that the college students current state of affairs was why they didn’t believe, o man, why do I even try. Even Jesus got frustrated and said that some religious leaders work pretty hard to make believers but only make non-believers.
    If I put human emotion to the Holy Spirit I picture Him saying something like this to us..”ugh! I’ve been drawing that person to Me, they were SO close, and now you just gone and opened your big mouth and said something really stupid and now I’ve got to start ALL over again!” For me it took another 13 years.


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    And on point, I do understand the principle that we can be stubborn, yes, I used all of the horrible fundie stuff as an excuse to leave the faith and go sin more. Yes I did, and I knew it. But who gave me that fuel for the fire, huh? Yes, Christians, that’s who.


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    Oh, now I’m a we bit embarrassed. I see others were commenting while I was writing and you said exactly what I was trying to say but used personal stories.


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    And now I’m really embarrassed because I see that the comment I’m referring to is in moderation. My face is red.


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    Adam Borsey and Mother:

    “Also, if that “informs your thought processes,” it keeps you from respecting people’s confidences and makes it way to easy to dismiss them. Which is the point of this kind of thinking. “Anyone who questions our interpretation/authority must has a problem with morality/God/submission to authority etc”

    I have seen this at work and it is more disturbing in a charismatic setting when it is combined with people thinking they have prophetic gifts and think that just because a thought pops into their head it must be correct.

    I was listening to a talk by a minister who got excited at the end of what he had to say and very emotionally said he thought ‘gays and Muslims can say what they like but Christians cannot’ (his words – referring to how Christians now have to be more careful what they say in generally). I was discussing this with my wife at end of the service saying I didn’t think this was a generally true comparison, and in particular gay people may still not be able to be upfront concerning their homosexuality (I didn’t have time to get started on people of the Muslim faith in our community).

    A leader joined the conversation and heard what I was saying. He looked at me a ‘in a spiritual way’ and asked me whether I had a problem with homosexuality.

    It is quite a good way of attacking anybody who dares to disagree with what is being said because it places them on the defensive, irrespective of whether they are correct.

    It is likely in this case the leader was being genuine and had deluded himself that he was being spiritual, when in fact he was potentially being abusive because of the unthoughtful timing of his question.

    I pointed this all out the minister who did actually say he had said the wrong thing, but didn’t seem to pick up on the inappropriateness of the leader. It was the last time I have visited that church, but not for this particular reason.

    It also made me think that impressionable people could be badly chewed up in such a situation because of the growing disconnect between what they perceive as being correct and the moral obligation placed on them to see their viewpoint stemming from ‘sin.’

    I agree, however, with the idea that our sinful nature can warp the way we see the world, which in a way is central to Christian theology. But this idea can become a weapon used by authority to silence criticism and so easily becomes a perversion of the Gospel.


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    Patrice wrote:

    So IMO, to call the YEC ideology of my fellow Christians, who already know God, stupid and wrong, is a mere impoliteness compared to how YEC acts as a stumbling block for those who might otherwise look closer at the wonderful God of All we are privileged to know.

    As you’ve probably gathered, Potter has always been the ‘odd man out’, the perennial contrarian so to speak. My views of sin* and justification* (and now my rejection of the evolutionary paradigm) can mark me as heretic and anathema in both conservative and progressive camps. But yeah, I see where you’re coming from, stupid is not so much in the eye of the beholder, as it is in the dynamic of where it goes from there.

    *[I now take the Jewish view (as opposed to the Augustinian model) that sin is an action (or inaction) that results in real-time harm, not a default state of being]


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    I am just fine with Mr. Muff Potter sticking to a tentative YEC stance, a man who appears to be, if as presented, the best sort of person. 🙂

    I don’t mind calling some ideas stupid, perhaps because I am well aware that I hold some myself.

    I think it would be a good thing to take our ideas less seriously so that we then can give ourselves more respect. w00t


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    *[I now take the Jewish view (as opposed to the Augustinian model) that sin is an action (or inaction) that results in real-time harm, not a default state of being]

    The more I read N T Wright and the new perspective on Paul and hear explanations of how much of what Paul said was so Jewish and how seeing it without looking at it through the Jewish perspective has distorted right much of what he said, the more I think we need to seriously see what leads down that path a lot more than we have.

    And St. Augustine of Hippo had some personal issues. And some leftovers from his pre-conversion religious thinking. IMO some of his ideas may have caught on because he was such a powerful person at the time, rather than because of the total accuracy of every word that fell out of his mouth.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Comment to you, Muff, but in moderation. Check back.


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    Jackie wrote:

    At first I thought- I’m over my skies even commenting on any of this – it seemed that people had so much knowledge, and they do- but then I realize I have something to add.

    I know, right? But once I got through the language, I realized the material wasn’t new, just packaged differently.

    It’s interesting to notice the words that groups use, and to wonder why one group will settle on a particular sets of words for a concept that is differently labeled in another group. A matter of nuance, really, but differences are definitely there.

    And interesting also how words will change inside a group over time. I’ve been gone from the church proper for 35 years (for the most part) and the language is quite different from when I left.


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    Deb, Dee or guy behind curtain, I made the mistake of naming myself differently. Would you restore to my usual first? Apologies!


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    @ Patrice:
    I think I have made the changes that you requested. Please make sure that I got them all.


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    Charles wrote:

    A leader joined the conversation and heard what I was saying. He looked at me a ‘in a spiritual way’ and asked me whether I had a problem with homosexuality.

    i know that “spiritual way” look and it means you are about to be “gospelized.”Charles wrote:

    I pointed this all out the minister who did actually say he had said the wrong thing, but didn’t seem to pick up on the inappropriateness of the leader. It was the last time I have visited that church, but not for this particular reason.

    There are a number of us on this blog who wished that they had been smart enough to quickly exit stage left.
    Charles wrote:

    I agree, however, with the idea that our sinful nature can warp the way we see the world, which in a way is central to Christian theology. But this idea can become a weapon used by authority to silence criticism and so easily becomes a perversion of the Gospel.

    Absolutely. Our sinful nature does affect us but it also affects Christian leaders who do not get a pass. I think that the more we recognize that “leaders” are just as prone to sin an everyone else, the more we will not fall for this ridiculous behavior.


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    Patti wrote:

    I really don’t want to upset you again Dee by reposting this, but I just gotta be extremely vulnerable here on this subject to answer some fundie points brought up.

    I got more upset when I heard that the person who has legitimate questions is doing so because they want to go and sin. I a doing much better today. Resting pulse rate: normal.

    Patti wrote:

    She told us that women do not have sex drives and since men do then that means that we should never be alone with them because if something happens it would be all our fault because they can’t say no when alone with a girl. She actually used the term ‘ladies of the night’ to describe the only kind of women who liked sex. Oh wow, was I in trouble because as I sat there in my seat realizing that I indeed had a drive so now I determined that I was lost because her way of thinking made me label myself as either a whore or a lesbian, a lesbian because I thought that was a man trapped in a women’s body, don’t get me wrong, I liked boys not girls, but my whole life of the fundies fighting me on wanting girls sports and other typically boy interests like trucks and outdoor stuff suddenly made sense

    Okay-pulse rate beginning to rise. Good night! She was a teacher? It reminds me of some advice that used tot be given to Victorian British women “Lie there and do this for the Queen and the Empire.”

    Patti wrote:

    By the time I was 17 I told my dad that I wanted nothing to do with this god he raised me to believe in.

    And,once again, my point is proven. Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith. Deep down inside, I think they know it. But they look for excuses so they won’t have to blame their abysmal behavior.

    Patti wrote:

    Even Jesus got frustrated and said that some religious leaders work pretty hard to make believers but only make non-believers.

    Darn good summation. Pulse rate returning slowly to normal.


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    Mother wrote:

    Plus, you may come across as a tool.

    The comment of the week! I needed a good laugh.


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    Nancy wrote:

    But it does justify jettisoning that a particular sub-culture within the faith if the “some people” make their erroneous belief a cornerstone of their understanding of the faith; if they have built a whole portion of their house on sand, and insist that others do so also

    Darn straight!


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    Nancy wrote:

    Let me see if I understand. Somebody engaged the cognitive portion of some people’s brains in such a way that they could resolve their issues with whatever issues they had, and then they could do something non-cognitive to enable them to know Christ. At which point, they could then join the chorus of those who have issues with other (Christian) issues on a cognitive level, while all the time believing that cognition keeps people from Christ.

    This reminds me of that great comedy sketch “Who’s on First?”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=airT-m9LcoY


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    Yes, all corrected. Thanks much Dee!


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    Thanks so much for your kind words. Fellowship is the heart of it all and the purpose. It (faith, spirit, growing) goes dead in our hands without it. Happy Friday all.

    @ Sopwith:


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    dee wrote:

    Mother wrote:

    Plus, you may come across as a tool.

    The comment of the week! I needed a good laugh.

    That completely cracked me up too. Welcome Mother!

    Plus Patti – I think we can say the masturbation word here without anyone fainting. Least of all me – I teach teenagers sex education as part of my job.
    My answer to the cheeky question ‘do you masturbate?’ was ‘doesn’t everyone?’ And in case I got that wrong & you meant something else? Hey, I can live with it.


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    dee wrote:

    Charles wrote:
    A leader joined the conversation and heard what I was saying. He looked at me a ‘in a spiritual way’ and asked me whether I had a problem with homosexuality.
    i know that “spiritual way” look and it means you are about to be “gospelized.”

    It’s also a passive-aggressive blame shift worthy of a master manipulator.

    Notice he passively accuses the dissident of the Worst Possible Taboo/Sin, forcing him into immediate defensive mode while retaining Total Plausible Deniability. And provides a cover (“in a Spiritual way”) for claiming Discernment of the Spirit, direct from God, AKA “Spectral Evidence”, cue the Woo-Woo.

    And the immediate defensive mode can also be spun Spiritually(TM) as “Satan Hath Hardened Your Heart(TM)”. Win-Win for the ManaGawd.


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    Mother wrote:

    I can’t even. Keller’s story (if he told it) sounds like a convenient “preacher story”- “this one time, a perfect circumstance proved what I am telling you, no dates or names though, just trust me it was awesome.”

    Sounds like Christian Urban Legend material.


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    Wanted to mention I’ve only been back to going to church less than a year, after almost 10 yrs away. Not from a truly bad experience, but just from not feeling a real connection. I almost hate to mention this, but if there’s any place to, this is it.

    10 yrs ago, I had a devastating loss – unspeakable pain… My younger brother took his life. I couldn’t even try in a comment to summarize the grief so I won’t. Enough to say I could have torn off my own skin in those first days. My husband in an effort to comfort me in the only way that possibly could, called the pastor at our church at the time. No one called back for three days. In that first 24 hrs I rec’d 12 phone messages from people in my AA program (I just outted myself). I couldn’t talk, but just hearing the voices of care without any grand answers helped in those hours.

    I didn’t hold any grudge against church, it just kind of solidified where I fit- and how the seemingly smallest loving gestures are a lifeline at times. I’ve been in recovery for 18 yrs (since I was 29). And I realize more and more how blessed I’ve been to have fellowship there. (I can only imagine how unsettling the very loose, broad spirituality that is allowed in AA is for strict Christians, and I even understand it.) It’s purpose is different (recovery) but I’m truly amazed at how parallel it is with Christian principles

    Wow- sorry!! Went off on a tangent. It was healing to write. Thanks. I wondered why I kept returning to this blog!

    @ Patrice:


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Urban legend or not, I am still waiting to hear why he connected questioning the faith with late adolescent/ young adult sex. I am thinking that if we investigated the situation we would find out that every one of those students had thumbs on their right hands too, and everybody knows that is related to rebellion and sin and who knows what else. Because the vast vast majority of people who rebel and/or fall into sin have thumbs on their right hands. Proof positive right there.

    What I really want to know is why he made the assumption that people would take his story seriously, given the absence of establishing cause and effect. And if he did want to suggest cause and effect, why did he not suggest that questioning the faith led to a higher incidence of sex. Or maybe he thought that if he did that it would start a new religious trend, “Hey, baby, you want to go question the faith a little?”

    And why did he think that anybody (his audience) would fall for the story. Oh, wait. Some people did. Well, there you go. It all stands explained. I assume that he knows his audience. That is a sad thought.


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    In other news, Lesley and I have just finished a bottle of fizzy white (which means I drank most of it). Therefore, as a precautionary measure, I will refrain from posting until tomorrow.

    hic


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    @ Jackie:
    I’m very sorry to hear about your brother. People don’t realize the devastation that suicide causes in family/friends.

    Sweet about 18 yrs AA. I think Muff Potter recently marked that number, too. It is impressive.

    The church’s general unresponsiveness to distress/pain is a deep problem, as shown once again by your experience. Imagine if you’d also had close relationships with people inside the church–that unresponsiveness would have poured salt in your wounds. I’m glad you’ve not had that experience.


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    @ Jackie:
    I appreciate your posting. I’m very sorry for you loss.

    Things have happened to me and people outside of the church usually helped more.


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    Patrice wrote:

    @ Jackie

    Imagine if you’d also had close relationships with people inside the church–that unresponsiveness would have poured salt in your wounds. I’m glad you’ve not had that experience.

    That statement really bridges a gap. So so very true. I’ve thought of that in relation to what people here have experienced in a much bigger way. Thanks for that. I left details about actually meeting with someone there for help, out for the sake of length but it’s not surprising stuff. Not helpful to me is all it was.


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    @ Jackie:

    Sorry to hear about your loss. I can well imagine that the mere passage of time doesn’t make that kind of thing even slightly easier.

    I’m running off on a bit of a tangent from your comment, but I think your experience shows how rare, and priceless, the gift of encouragement (as per Romans 12) is. The gift of encouragement is, to my mind, too often catastrophically cheapened by phrases like “we can all encourage”.

    No, we can’t.

    Not one in a hundred Christians has the God-given ability to approach someone in your position, and communicate something to you that turns your mourning into dancing. That would be a fantastic gift to have… Perhaps this does link back to the title of the thread. Perhaps too many of us Christians have pretended to ourselves that we have something we don’t.


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    Joy Huff wrote:

    Things have happened to me and people outside of the church usually helped more.

    Ditto.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    … well, on reflection, that’s slightly unfair. The two people who helped most when I was at the tail-end of 7 years of unemployment (or stacking shelves on the minimum wage) were in the congregation, but were not in good favour with the leadership!


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Yep, ditto from me too.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    but I think your experience shows how rare, and priceless, the gift of encouragement (as per Romans 12) is. The gift of encouragement is, to my mind, too often catastrophically cheapened by phrases like “we can all encourage”.

    Hmmmm, food for further thought.


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    Jackie wrote:

    It was healing to write.

    Thanks for sharing, Jackie.


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    Nancy wrote:

    Because the vast vast majority of people who rebel and/or fall into sin have thumbs on their right hands. Proof positive right there.

    Brilliant post, Nancy. I almost have a hard time believing he would say something like that, because it is so face-pam worthy.


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    @ Jackie:

    Jackie you should pick up Philip Yancey’s “What Good is God?” One chapter in there is about an AA meeting in Chicago. Yancey talks about how alcoholics can find more grace in AA than in Christianity. It might resonate with you.


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    mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    Not to mention Hovind Sr. is currently in the slammer – though that was for something to do with taxes, not YEC.
    Yep, I am very well aware that Hovind Sr. is a guest of the Federal Bureau of Prisons right now. In fact, Hovind overlaps with one of my other interests: “sovereign citizens.” Hovind has long (since the mid-1990s) believed that he is not subject to the laws of the federal government, but obviously that hasn’t worked out real well for him.
    I wonder if the IRS will go after him for failing to pay his assessed arrearages once he gets out of prison (his current sentence is for failing to pay payroll taxes and for structuring withdrawals to avoid reporting requirements).

    Sociopaths and Narcissists aren’t limited to non-Christians. I suspect Hovind, and a multitude of other so-called “Christian Leaders” are right along with him in this group. The only difference between so-called Christians and people who are not Christians that are criminals is one group parades religion around in order to manipulate a group of people into their predation. Hovind is only one of them.


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    @ Nick:

    It’s a funny thing, but I’d never thought of it in quite those terms until I read this comment of yours, Hester. I mean specifically that I’d never thought of quite how vast a difference there is between those two.

    I have to think about it because of the friend I mentioned upthread.


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    @ Seneca “j” Griggs.:

    I actually agree with meat of Seneca’s statement here. In that sense I too believe in what historically were called “The Fundamentals”, although I am not a YEC. Interestingly some of the early fundamentalists had no problem with Darwin except that he perhaps did not see God’s sovereignty in the process.

    But yes, fundamentalist can be a bit of a catch-all phrase these days, and saying “fundamentalist” is a bit like saying “Catholic” or even “atheist” – which subset do you mean?

    Nevertheless my heart goes out to Jonny, if that doesn’t sound patronising. I think I know the sort of environment he is talking about. Thanks for sharing, Jonny.


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    NB just read Steve’s list of the fundamentals, and agreed with that too!

    I do view some doctrines as non-negotiable, but not in the sense that one can reduce mystery to a few statements, but rather that these are the defining lines beyond which belief ceases to be Christian in a logical sense. And perhaps unsurprisingly, most are to do with the person of Jesus.

    One of the best books I have read on the subject, for what it’s worth, is J I Packer’s “Fundamentalism and the Word of God”, which assesses the whole phenomenon of ‘fundamentalism’, its history and rivalling approaches to the Scriptures.

    Sorry if I’m wandering off topic or missing stuff, it’s late over here!


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    Hope it’s not too far off topic, but since the blog does hinge on the person of Jesus here goes: Remember when Jesus’ disciples demanded that he show them the Father? Well here he is:

    https://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/mom-pays-off-every-student-s-balance-following-son-s-denial-of-school-lunch–184851942.html

    The real life Jesus, the real McCoy, written as true north on their moral compass with Jiminy Cricket deciphering the map scale.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I think your experience shows how rare, and priceless, the gift of encouragement (as per Romans 12) is. The gift of encouragement is, to my mind, too often catastrophically cheapened by phrases like “we can all encourage”.
    No, we can’t.
    Not one in a hundred Christians has the God-given ability to approach someone in your position, and communicate something to you that turns your mourning into dancing. That would be a fantastic gift to have… Perhaps this does link back to the title of the thread. Perhaps too many of us Christians have pretended to ourselves that we have something we don’t.

    This comment blows me away. All I hear is humility. Yes, perhaps in too much ambition, God is left out completely – and we are cheap imitations when we try to be all things. (Or define all things, or answer all things). It takes humility to just be with someone rather than to be God to them.

    I’m not sure how you know this-about time not healing this one. It’s true. But this gorgeous phrase-mourning into dancing- that happens too.

    The people on here have blown me away. I mean made me wanna stay. Or something. You guys gotta church I can join? JK.


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    @ Eagle:

    That book rings a bell… I’ll check it out. Funny, I’m in Chicagoland (west). I’ve at times had a nagging feeling that I should be involved in a church in addition to AA, but then I’d get the thought that we don’t choose where we are used. The last place on earth I ever wanted to be was in a church basement with a coffee pot (meeting). But as in all things spiritual, the surprises can be beautiful.


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    @ Muff Potter:
    Wow. Awesome.


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    “And,once again, my point is proven. Christians can, and do, drive people away from the faith. Deep down inside, I think they know it. But they look for excuses so they won’t have to blame their abysmal behavior.”
    Wow Dee, I keep reading that over and over, I can’t believe I have never thought about turning the excuse claim back on them. You are so right.

    And yes BeakerJ, you guessed correctly. But I still do not like that word!


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    Kolya wrote:

    NB just read Steve’s list of the fundamentals, and agreed with that too!

    Those are my initials – use yer own!

    Though I, too, agreed with Steve’s list of the fundamentals.


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    Jackie wrote:

    I’m not sure how you know this – about time not healing this one.

    Strange one, that – it occurred to me and Lesley very recently, though in a different context.

    We resigned membership of a local congregation about five years ago, for reasons which were not especially drastic and with which I won’t bore you. But just the other week, we met up with a couple from that congregation whom we’d not spoken to at any length for a while. At one point, the husband said to Lesley (of the circumstances under which we left): The way you were treated then was wrong. His wife immediately broke in and said, never mind: that’s past. It’s all in the past.

    That was something of an “a-ha” moment. It occurred to me that Christians often like to do that: i.e., to dismiss unpleasant things as being “in the past”. But you can’t wish things away as easily as that.

    In that instance, our relationship with the church was permanently affected, and not just in our minds or in ways that are imaginary and can be “healed” away by a beautiful moment of weeping (puke…). There are things that need to be addressed and repented of. What the wife was really saying, as I’m sure you’ve spotted, was: Yes, but I don’t want to do any uncomfortable repenting. I don’t want to resolve those things properly; I just want the quiet, comfortable life I’ve got used to. I want to pretend that all the problems are trivial, and are your problems, and that I can solve them just by talking down to you and telling you to “let them go”.

    I suppose I could summarise it thus… the man possessed by “legion”, after one short encounter with Jesus, was found sitting next to him, dressed and in his right mind. In other words, Jesus really is mighty to save, and to restore. For one reason and/or another, we’re not. But rather than acknowledge that, we try to keep up the pretence that we are – we and our favourite biblescribshers, or whatever. The easiest way to do that is to trivialise a person’s struggles down to a level that even we feel competent to heal, and obviously to blame them when it doesn’t work.

    Hmm… can’t help feeling there are several incomplete thoughts all trying to get out there. Sorry about the large word-count!


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      __

    Over Da Top: “The Earth & It’s ‘Spin’?”

    hmmm…

      Belief in how old da earth is, or how God brought about the creation of the universe, is not pre-request for salvation, nor faith in Jesus. 

    huh?

      The prerequest for salvation, – is believing in Jesus. See, God sent His Son into the world to save the people of the earth from their sins and their separation from God Almighty. (He cared that much…)

    What?

      As it so happened, the people killed Jesus, God’s Son, yet God raised Him up from the dead. Believing this brings salvation and eternal life to those that do believe.

    (no fancy ‘theology’ is required)

    Interested?

    ATB

    Sopy
    ___
    Comic relief: “Dogs barking to VW Darth Vader dog commercial…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4_ImUtS4uw
    Wayback Machine: ” The Bark Side” – The Original 2012 Volkswagen Game Day Commercial
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhkUR6ACaqY

    ;~)


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    @ Patrice:

    Thanx Patrice! My views on creationism and faith are far more nuanced than just a simplistic YEC or TE stance. And since this is not the thread or the time & place for it, we’ll leave it at that.


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    Jesus put the offer for personal, bodily resurrection to eternal life with Him (where He is) out on the table.

    Across the spectrum of human history, thought, philosophies, religions, disciplines, endeavors, cultures, kingdoms, socities, tribal rituals, belief systems, academics, etc., such an offer is rarely, if ever, found.

    Spending a bit of time and effort to check out/validate/debunk Jesus’ claims makes sense to me. Given my healthy dose of self-interest, the prospect of eternal life rates as a priority to me.

    Personally, I find Jesus to be true. Happily, He is who He says He is. He did what He said God the Father sent Him to do.

    I’m not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ which is the power for eternal life to all who believe.


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    Atheist are aincerely welcome to their paths in life. I readily admit to my list of faults. Am I likeable? I don’t even know. My distrust is still a major impediment to relationships. Am I loving? Am I kind? Am I a walking example of Christ?

    What can I say? “Ya. I know. Look at me. Can you even believe God Himslef loves this clueless, imperfect lump of clay? But. HE. DOES.

    When my life fell apart and my trust broke into smithereens and EVERYTHING about reality was suddenly in question, and I hurt beyond bearing, a still small thought in my head kept saying, “God DOES love you. He does love you. God’s love is still real.”

    My response at the time was, “Yeahright, Jesus. Are you fake, too? Did I just make you up too? Is my whole “relationship with You” also a farce?”

    What can I say? He WAS still true. He WAS still there. He was there through all the oceans full of anger, the confusion, the disconnect. He handled everything I threw at Him and still He loved me.

    I will not trade ANYTHING this world has to offer for the love and the peace I now know. Love is the most precious, indescribably glorious, estate. If you have love, you have everything. If I don’t have love, I truly have nothing.

    Looking out at all the options in life, really, what is the good if I gain everything the world has to offer but lose my soul, the very essence of who I am, my inner being, unique to me alone?

    Like the song says, “You can have this whole world. Give me, Jesus.”

    And He loves atheists as much as He loves me.


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    To Daisy, and any others to whom this applies ~~

    My deepest condolences on the passing of your mother. I weep with you. The more we love a person, the more we miss her. The loss remains throughout the years; the empty place is never filled by anyone else.

    From what you’ve said, God richly blessed you with an exceptional mother. A mother who sincerely lives her love for and faith in the Lord, imo, is like a rare, irreplaceable jewel. I’m so glad for the gift she was to you and to all who knew her.

    I empathize with you on Mother’s Day. I pray the blessing of your mother will touch your day with love, in the midst of lingering sorrow.

    (Grief is the strangest, untamed, wildest experience, unique to each heart and surfacing wherever and whenever.)

    We were shocked several years ago when doctors suddenly told us my mother had two weeks to live. And, indeed, despite many prayers, she departed after two weeks.

    I miss my mom. I am happy for her being present with the Lord. (My faith-based hope in this truth comforts me so much). Honestly, I don’t think she’d want to re-enter this world, given a choice, Her absence is still an emptiness in my life, though, and will be until I see her again.

    “Each heart knows its own sorrow.” The Lord of all comfort and grace knows each one’s heart.


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    leholmes wrote:

    mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    Not to mention Hovind Sr. is currently in the slammer – though that was for something to do with taxes, not YEC.
    Yep, I am very well aware that Hovind Sr. is a guest of the Federal Bureau of Prisons right now. In fact, Hovind overlaps with one of my other interests: “sovereign citizens.” Hovind has long (since the mid-1990s) believed that he is not subject to the laws of the federal government, but obviously that hasn’t worked out real well for him.
    I wonder if the IRS will go after him for failing to pay his assessed arrearages once he gets out of prison (his current sentence is for failing to pay payroll taxes and for structuring withdrawals to avoid reporting requirements).

    Sociopaths and Narcissists aren’t limited to non-Christians. I suspect Hovind, and a multitude of other so-called “Christian Leaders” are right along with him in this group. The only difference between so-called Christians and people who are not Christians that are criminals is one group parades religion around in order to manipulate a group of people into their predation. Hovind is only one of them.

    You are so right.


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    @ Ardiak:
    Thank you for these thoughts on Mother’s Day.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Steve Scott wrote:

    Fundamentalism: the reduction of the entire Christian faith to a core set of fundamentals.

    Which soon becomes The Party Line.

    Thinking outside of the box, uh, I mean core set of fundamentals. When much of your life exists outside of the core set of fundamentals because the fundamentals cannot deal with the nuances of reality, then you’re “outside of the faith.” And if you’re outside the faith, why not express it with actions in keeping with being outside the faith?

    So, who is to blame for Christians who leave the faith? Could it be…Satan?


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    Hester wrote:

    @ Steve Scott:

    Is it just inspiration of the Bible, or inspiration and inerrancy? Because those positions often make for very different ways of thinking about the Bible. Also one of those two camps spends a lot of time denouncing the other (and I’m sure you know which camp I’m referring to).

    Hester, the doctrine of inerrancy came out of the doctrine of inspiration…an additional fundamental. (Therefore, women shouldn’t wear pants; therefore we can eliminate country music songs about tight jeans) I purposely left inerrancy out because I wanted to mention the real, real fundamentals.

    Interestingly, if you do some reading on Machen, you will find that although he is championed as a defender of the fundamentals against liberalism, he disliked the idea of fundamentalism because he feared that what would happen would be the exact thing we are discussing today.


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    The problem with “fundamentals” is a lot like the problem of criminal laws in conservative places. The list tends to grow over time, in one of three ways: more numbers of “fundamentals”; broader and broader implications of the “fundamentals”; or stronger and stronger interpretations of the “fundamentals”. There is overlap in these types of growth, so some changes can be assigned to more than one.

    From inspiration to inerrancy is an example of a stronger interpretation of a “fundamental”, to add additional implications of what the inspiration fundamental means.


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    @ Steve Scott:
    @ An Attorney:

    I’m convinced that this is largely what Paul meant when he said that righteousness could not be achieved by law. It’s not just that following the Mosaic Law of animal sacrifice can’t make us righteous, but that no conceivable law could either. Such a law would eventually have to be infinitely long and infinitely detailed, like a kind of monstrous cosmo-theological Mandelbrot set.

    I know very little about John Machen (whom I assume to be the Machen whereof you spake, Steve), but I suspect he thought something similar. Though, obviously, without the reference to the then-undiscovered Mandelbrot set.

    The journey from inspiration to inerrancy/infallibility (and the controversy over exactly what is the difference between inerrant and infallible), and thence to sufficiency, is to my mind a journey into death.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Seems to me that when the bible becomes an inerrant/infallible thing we have created the ‘new law’ and have erased the living, breathing Father, Son, and Holy Spirit right out of the equation.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    @ Bridget:
    Amen to both of you!!!


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    @ Bridget:

    You might say that we’ve taken the attributes of God and projected them onto the Bible. Thereafter, we don’t need God. It’s amazing how often you hear Christian leaders and denominational spokesmen say that “our authority comes from scripture”.

    Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

    Then Jesus came to them and gave them a book. He said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to this book. Therefore go and build multiple separate empires in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, each of you teaching them to interpret this book in the same way he does. And surely I am with you always, or at least to the end of the apostolic age. Then your descendants will close the canon of this book and my Father’s ultimate plan will be complete.”

    (with apologies…)


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Inspired scribsher, Nick.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Just had to say- I love anyone’s efforts at getting those thoughts out! Can’t imagine much else that’s more worthwhile.


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    Rod

    I did not approve your comment because it might be construed as being threatening to both McDonald’s and Fundamentalist churches. Please tone it down and try again.


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    People also are replacing Jesus with the “church,” and the “church” has come to mean the leadership and their families.

    The leaders talking about themselves has come to equal talking about Christ??

    BORING!!! (As well as fruitless and a waste of time.)


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    @ Estelle

    Ditto for your kind appreciation.


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    “You know well as I do that certain ‘Bible-believers’ will find a way to dismiss you if they don’t like what you have to say. They will denounce you as not a True Christian™. They will say you are rebellion, deceived by the devil, harming the body of Christ. They will brush you off as easily as they do me.”

    Yes. They call you rebellious no matter what you say or do. They tell the church members to have nothign to do with you or yours, not to talk to you on the phone, not to answer your email, not to let you into their homes, not to let their kids play with your kids. They literally run away at the sight of you. They accuse you of things you never ever would even have thought someone could think about you. They downright lie. They share private information while telling you not to talk about it. They impugn your character and characterize you as out of your mind. Just for good measure, even people who are not in your church will hear that you’ve totally lost it. People you don’t even know will have heard your name and think they know all about you.

    The fallout from their treatment is devastating at every level. The struggle and the hurt is tremendously real.

    Still, do I believe them, or do I believe Jesus? Jesus is not them. Just because they said so, doesn’t mean God agreed with them.

    Contrary to prevalent thinking, the church is not Jesus. (In fact, leaving many a modern church is actually a healthy decision. Finding people like those who post at this and similar sites is even better. Their experiences counteract any lingering doubts that what I, personally, experienced was just standard operating procedures for controlling abusers. Not my fault in the least.)

    Even the worst they can do cannot separate me from Christ’s love.

    Jesus never minimized the terrible damage effected by sin. In fact, He spoke much about the barriers and challenges to belief that the disciples would face. He said people would do all kinds of evil in his name. (Who can think of a worse evil than violence and abuse against the innocents, the children whom Jesus loves) Sorting out the truth from the lies is a lifelong calling.

    To know and live the truth that Jesus loves me is the best way I can defeat those abusers and their lifes. The best way to counter act the destroyers is to not be destroyed, but to be LOVED.

    That’s me. That’s not you. God is just as there for you, though. He sure didn’t die more for me than He did for you. I pray that as you honestly sift through the lies, the truth you find leads you to His love.


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    Forgot to add —

    At the same time they were carrying out their campaign to “protect the church” from me, one of the psstors was involved in an adulterous affair with a married woman in the church, a fact which came to light soon after I left. !!!