"Caner admitted to “pulpit mistakes” but denied he ever tried to deceive anyone."
Look who's back in the news . . . Ergun Caner. You may remember that Caner was recently appointed president of Brewton-Parker College in Mount Vernon, Georgia. Here is some information on this SBC-affiliated college if you are not familiar with it.
Jason Smathers, a Southern Baptist pastor and blogger in Arizona, manages a website called Witnesses Unto Me. In 2010 Smathers posted videos of Ergun Caner (who claims to be an expert on Islamic culture) addressing United States Marines who were about to deploy to the Middle East. Those talks took place in 2005, years before Caner would be accused of lying about his upbringing.
An article in The Baptist Standard reported that Ergun Caner told the Marines . . .
he came to the United States at age 14 from Turkey and learned everything he knew about America from watching Andy Griffith, Chicago Cubs baseball and championship wrestling on TV.
The Baptist Standard piece then states:
Smathers posted legal documents indicating Caner was in fact born in Sweden, came to America when he was about 3 or 4, and grew up as a normal teenager in a suburb near Columbus, Ohio.
Here is the affidavit (signed by Caner's mother) which Smathers posted on his website. Smathers then obtained videos of Caner's talks to the Marines and posted them on his blog.
Last summer Ergun Caner filed a lawsuit against Jason Smathers claiming copyright infringement on the videos. On April 17, 2014, the judge dismissed the lawsuit. According to an Associated Baptist Press article:
U.S. District Judge Terry Means … said Caner failed to make a case and that Smathers used the material fairly, as copyright law permits, for “purposes such as criticism, comment, [or] news reporting.”
“His sole purpose was to expose the inconsistencies in Dr. Caner’s biography and criticize a public figure,” the judge determined. If the unauthorized reproduction of his lectures caused Caner any financial loss, he continued, it was the result of “legitimate criticism” of his words.
Below is a screenshot of Judge Means' Final Judgment. Notice that it states: "Dismissed With Prejudice". This means:
the court is saying that it has made a final determination on the merits of the case, and that the plaintiff is therefore forbidden from filing another lawsuit based on the same grounds.
We find it fascinating that Ergun Caner claimed to have rights to these government-owned videos, but it has been purported that he never attempted to apply for the copyright to them.
Of further interest, the Associated Baptist Press article (cited above) reports:
Caner admitted to “pulpit mistakes” but denied he ever tried to deceive anyone. Trustees of Liberty University, his employer at the time, decided not to reprimand Caner but later demoted him from his position as a dean.
Caner left Liberty in 2011 to become provost and vice president for academic affairs at Arlington Baptist College, an independent Baptist school in Texas founded by controversialist J. Frank Norris in 1939. Late last year Caner became president of Brewton-Parker, one of three colleges affiliated with the Georgia Baptist Convention.
Caner’s brother, Emir, is president of Truett-McConnell College, also affiliated with the Georgia Baptist Convention. In 2002 they co-wrote Unveiling Islam: An Insider's Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs.
On April 30, 2014, Jason Smathers uploaded to YouTube a seven minute video of Caner's most outlandish claims (see below). Here is the description he provided for the video:
For those who want to see the most outrageous claims Ergun Caner made to the US Marines without watching the entire video which is over an hour in length.
The full video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFzbQ…
This video was originally posted on Viddler in connection with the following story: http://www.witnessesuntome.com/2010/0…
Ergun Caner attempted to have this video removed from the internet through a lawsuit, but the court has ruled against him. The details of that case are here: http://www.witnessesuntome.com/2014/0…
This is one of two training sessions given by the pretend jihadist, Ergun Caner, to the US Marines at Marine Corps Air Station New River in April of 2005. This training took place at the base theater.
Ergun Caner was born in Sweden and moved to Ohio before he was two years old. Following 9/11/2001 Caner took on an alter ego that grew up as an Islamic terrorist in Turkey and used this fictitious story to build a career speaking about "his people" – the Islamic terrorists. Here is a video where he trains US Marines under these false pretenses. When asked for comment, US Marines said it would be impossible to determine if any of this training resulted in the death or endangerment of troops.
As we wrap up this post, we feel it necessary to address something Jason Smathers did in his previous career that got him in BIG TROUBLE. Here is an excerpt from the "Who Am I" post written by Jason Smathers:
In 2003 I was a software engineer at America Online. I sold a list of AOL user email addresses to an online casino. I was charged and plead guilty to conspiracy to commit interstate transport of stolen goods (email address list) and conspiracy to violate the CAN-SPAM act of 2004. My actions in 2003 started a conspiracy that continued into 2004 by the online casino and thus I was guilty of the new CAN-SPAM Act of 2004.
These are things I am not proud of, but never things I have hidden. I share them anytime disclosure seems appropriate and at times when I believe this part of my past will help someone else to come to know the Lord. My sharing this here will be of no surprise to my church, my peers, or my school, as I have spoken candidly to them about these things.
And this is the rest of the story in Jason's own words:
So, you might be wondering how I went from a self centered jerk to a pastor. After my encounter with the law, Heather and I had some trouble in our marriage. We thought we would get a divorce and I knew a man who happened to be a Southern Baptist Pastor. I assumed a pastor would know how to counsel someone through a divorce. Instead, he let me know that God hates divorce and he clearly presented the Gospel to me which I heard for the very first time. He didn’t stop there, for the next six months he shared and shared until I was convicted and gave my life to the Lord. Meanwhile, he was doing everything he could do to share with my wife and his wife was doing her best as well. They got us both to visit the church and one week we both went forward, as the was tradition there, to pronounce our faith in Christ publicly. The following week we were both baptized. The Lord saved our marriage and our souls.
I was so excited about the Gospel, so astonished what God would do with my life, all I wanted to do was to share the Gospel with others. I began reading countless books on theology and evangelism. I began working the streets passing out tracts and little copies of the Gospel of John. I got more involved in the local church and started teaching Sunday School first. Later I begin giving the Sunday evening sermons, and then I realized that I couldn’t be happy doing anything other than full time ministry and I enrolled in seminary. I believe you know the rest of the story.
Chalk up another WIN for bloggers in the court system. As we have stated numerous times, the internet has leveled the playing field and given a voice to average individuals. Because of the tremendous advancement in technology, eyes and ears are everywhere with recording devices literally at our fingertips. Those in prominent positions need to be very careful…
We leave you with a clip of Ergun Caner getting tasered when he was working at Liberty University. We’re still trying to figure out why both probes from the taser gun didn’t make contact with his back, as this video clearly shows. Yep, eyes are everywhere…
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 24:1-26:21 Hebrews 11:1-16 Psalm 110:1-7 Proverbs 27:14
First! Okay, now to actually read the article… 🙂
How can Caner deny trying to deceive anyone when the genealogical paper record speaks otherwise? Does he have amnesia as to his origins?
Tasers only work if you get hit with both probes. That completes the circuit. I’m not sure what to think of the Ergun Caner thing. I mean, the guy is very clearly a liar. I’m not sure what has to transpire psychologically for the leadership at these schools to respond in any way other than, “dude, you’re a tool. And you’re fired.”
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Why have certain Southern Baptist leaders backed this liar? I have not figured that one out yet.
Lola wrote:
“*I* Define Reality.”
AKA “Abracadabra” = “I Speak And IT IS SO!”
Plus, don’t forget tickling the itchy ears of The Right Christians with What They Wanted to Hear. After that, just scream “PERSECUTION!” and they’ll close ranks to defend you, just like they would with a pedophile.
@ mot:
My theory: the money. They have probably made a lot off of him and vice versa. If you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.
mot wrote:
“Enemy of my Enemy is My Friend”?
Properly-parsed Correct Theology?
“One Hand Washes the Other”?
“King unto King o’er the world is Brother”?
Tell ’em what they WANT to hear?
mot wrote:
The list of egregious and capricious actions by SBC seminary leaders is mind-numbing. I know many of them have been documented here, but I attended two different SBC seminaries, and am APPALLED by the lack of wisdom, lack of ethics, and lack of…well, Christianity. I actually did not finish my degree because I couldn’t in good conscience continue giving money to a school that taught heresy (ESS), empowered child predation, and thought it would be a good idea to drive a tank onto the lawn of a seminary for the annual money-wasting gala. I tell ya’, maybe I should just tweet them “farewell”.
I just wish this guy would disappear!! He’s like syphilis… he keeps coming back! Ugh…
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
There were other videos posted to YouTube taken from different angles that make it look like the real deal. So grateful for this one! I wonder if the person who recorded it realized what it showed?
I was home recently and discussed Caner with my father who is a retired IFB pastor. He said that several years ago he heard Caner preach one of the finest sermons he’d ever heard on the Christian family. It’s hard to understand why someone with obvious gifts feels the need to fabricate his life.
Also important to note is that Caner gave the same fake testimony years ago at SBTS in the presence of both Al Mohler and Russell Moore, both of whom have been silent on Caner ever since he was exposed.
Nicholas wrote:
It was in 2003: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2013/12/mohlercaner-panel-at-sbts.html
My favorite Caner routine is when he pretends to speak in Arabic and that he debates Imams in Mosques, my favorite sound bite is “I hated you”.
Eagle wrote:
I thought cancer was the disease that keeps coming back?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Herpes is probably the social disease he’s thinking of. Viral and incurable, unlike the bacterial syphilis, but also episodic rather than progresive.
I once heard Dr. Tom Malone, a noted 20th century Baptist preacher, say, I am not preaching now, I am telling the truth. 🙂 Sadly, far too many preachers are quite comfortable with exaggerating their sinful past for economic or social gain. I have heard countless testimonies that I doubted were the truth. They contained elements of truth, padded with lies and exaggerations. One man used to boast about how big his church attendance was until his counting method was exposed. He added the attendance of Sunday School, morning service, and evening service together and quoted that as his church’s attendance number. Years ago, an Evangelist by the name of Dennis Corle held a revival meeting at the church I pastored. A month later, I read a report of the meeting in the Sword of The Lord, a Baptist newspaper. The report was filled with exaggerated numbers. So much so that I wondered if we were at the same meeting. I have read the online resumes of a few preachers that I personally know. Some of them are quite innovative with how they portray their past history. Is it any wonder churches are forced to do complete background checks on prospective candidates for an open pulpit? Caner is hardly unique, though he took the deception a lot farther than many lying preachers do. Sadly, it doesn’t seem to matter.
@ Dan Marvin:
Perhaps because he does not know who he is. So he needs to invent himself.
@ Bruce Gerencser:
Thanks so much for your comment. Pretty incredible that someone would use creative math to elevate attendance numbers (as you have described).
These are challenging times indeed, and it's difficult to know whom you can trust, even in the pulpit.
And in other news, Al Mohler says that Jesus Christ died only for the elect.
“Christ died not as a substitute for all sinners but only for those predestined to believe, a leading Southern Baptist Calvinist said in a weekend podcast explaining the atonement, a Christian doctrine that describes how sinners are reconciled to God.”
http://www.abpnews.com/faith/theology/item/28657-mohler-says-christ-died-for-the-elect#.U2hLM1fN4tV
Matthew 11:28: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
I don’t think Jesus knew about Mohler’s little wrinkle on things. But that’s just My Personal Opinion.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Yah, they do it right in front of everyone, baldly, repeatedly, and no one cares. Bizarre. A little scary, too.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Plague of US preachers falsely claim to be Navy SEALs
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I know some folks who believe this. I don’t see how it is possible to justify this with *so much* scripture to the contrary. To be fair, Russell Moore has gone on public record that he does not agree with this.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Well, if we could just get him to put aside his patriarchal stance he might become approachable.
For the guy to fabricate his bio is dishonest enough. For the leaders of seminaries to keep putting him in high positions in spite of the chronic lying is a much greater form of dishonesty. Something is deeply wrong when this kind of behavior is rewarded; the system is broken.
Further, as someone who actually did grow up overseas, I know that a defining mark and solid proof of this is multilingual ability, which I have. Could not have someone checked to see how well the guy spoke Turkish? If he was there until age 14 it should have been close to fluent and without an accent. It’s not that difficult to check.
Guess the vaunted leaders have concluded it’s easier to believe the lie and let your neurons sleep (and make money in the deal) than to seek the truth. Good grief.
@ Deb
So now, after this lawsuit has been dismissed “with prejudice,” Brewton-Parker College needs to wash the filth off of its reputation and send the lying sleazebag packing.
Anybody wanna guess if they will?
Lola wrote:
You know that you have used and described my previously invented technique as outlined here: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/04/14/darrell-gilyard-cj-mahaney-and-their-bffs-a-gospelplaybook-in-minimizing-abuse/#comment-139769
I think I should sue you for breach of copyright 😉
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
I know you are smart, and all that, so how did you come to go to southern baptist schools in the first place? I thought you were lutheran. No need to reply if you don’t want to, I know it is a personal question and none of my business.
BTW; I went to carver school, a now defunct school which used to be associated with (not a part of ) SBTS. Boyce college is now in the spot where carver school used to be. I did not have any problems with carver but they had problems with SBTS. I am saying this to illustrate that it is not just you who ran into mess, and running into mess goes back before Mohler, sad to say.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
True. And there is also within that culture the idea that the worse the sinner the better the saint, such that ordinary pew sitters pad their “sinner resume” routinely. The worse the behavior from which one got gloriously saved, the bigger the star at testimony time at church.
@ Nancy:
And if you don’t have a big shiny testimony like this, you might not really be saved. In other words, kids for whom Proverbs 22:6 succeeded (i.e., were raised in the church and never walked away), are in some ways subtly punished for it, even though that’s ostensibly the outcome they want.
gus wrote:
I’m going Driscoll on you: My research assistants did not do their work. And to avoid taking any personal responsibility, I’m leaving all social media for the next year to concentrate on my next stolen ideas. 🙂
Lola wrote:
Careful – he might have his name trademarked 😉
@ Hester:
Precisely. If you put forth the “testimony” that in your youth you used to (the buzz words change from generation to generation) but then your stopped that by the grace of God, then you are “sincere” or “authentic” I think they now say. But if you did not do any of that, then you are obviously a self-righteous hypocrite and probably worse than that. That attitude creates lots of motivation to exaggerate if not outright lie. And in my experience I would not really use the word subtle to describe this.
And, it can’t be fair to those who actually did experience a level of grace which enabled them to overcome (whatever it was), because it is easy to think they are exaggerating, when if fact they may be telling the truth.
At this point I believe people when they talk about sexual escapades or sexual violence directed against them. And I believe people when they talk about various addictions and various substance abuse issues. But when they get into bizarre international religions or political persecutions or alleged prior gang membership or even where they went to school I want to see some evidence.
And within “the church” this culture of deception has been allowed and encouraged to succeed. So I think, Caner-small potatoes-they are all lying through their teeth, which cannot be really true, but I am just so burned out with such mess.
Let’s get to the point, shall we?
Evangelical leaders (and their followers) are so deeply invested in demonizing Muslims that they’ll turn a blind eye to the well-documented idiocy of this charlatan.
Will head over to the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) page a bit later to do some follow up, but off the top of their heads, does anyone know if Mikey Weinstein investigated the travesty of having Craner the buffoon address the USMC under official auspices back in 2005?
Unbelievable. Face meet palm.
Nancy wrote:
It’s a good question. I wasn’t always Lutheran, and the SBC seminaries were the closest geographically. They’ve got a franchise in every state these days. I didn’t know much about the SBC or the seminaries until I started attending.
@ Rafiki:
Make that “inve$ted” in the post above. 🙂
@ gus:
Not to get off topic, but, in general, you cannot trademark a surname. You would have to prove that consumers view your mark as a reference to your company and not merely a reference to your last name.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
You have followed this stuff for a long time. Why do you think that it does not matter to supposed Christians such as the ones who hired him for his new job?
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Yep. They are speaking out more boldly on this topic. And Mohler, who is a BFF of CJ Mahaney, knows he is one of the elect and feels quite confidant in his “officially one of the elect™” judgment.
@ Daisy:
You are so good finding these things. Have you ever considered starting a blog to keep track of this stuff?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Could you tell me where you read this? I would be interested in his perspective. The “L” (limited atonement) is the most controversial of the TULIP.
John wrote:
If you follow the back story of Caner, you will see the one of the first people to point out Ergun Caner’s lies was a Muslim student in England.
He said Caner was speaking gibberish. That is what blew this thing wide open.
http://www.fakeexmuslims.com/ergun-gibberish-mosque
Anon wrote:
They won’t.
Let me tell you what i was told by a former pastor. I listened to the associate pastor tell a story that he claimed was true. It wasn’t and I sent him an email proving that it was a fictional short story from Red Book in the 1950s. The guy said he was surprised.
Guess what? 6 months later he retold the exact same story-claiming it was true. I went to the lead pastor and asked him what the heck was going on. He said that fabricating stories to fit into a sermon is an old “tradition” in certain pastoral circles. i said that it was no tradition-it was allowing outright lies to be told. I doubt the lead pastor ever did anything about it.
@ gus:
Hmmm- you may have a case….
Rafiki wrote:
That is a great comment!
Lola wrote:
Dang. I was going for Dee!™ (exclamation intended)
Totally off topic
It was wonderful to see Jack Bauer back in action. Long live 24.
Sorry- I had to indulge myself. I kept checking my DVR to make sure all was recording!
@ Rafiki:
Well said. Caner has stepped forward to carry a banner they want carried, and they have not found anyone better to do what they want done.
It is interesting that there are so many things all at once to rail against. Back in the day before the current list of current issues the prior current issues they railed against were catholicism and the entertainment industry. Nobody would get too very far with only that these days. Got to have lots and lots of issues to play to all the interests of the masses they hope to win over to whatever their side happens to be. Oh, wait, that must be politics I am talking about, not religion. Silly me.
@ dee:
Bah! I need to upgrade my satellite service to see the new “24” miniseries, which is being broadcast by our regional provider at the same time as in the U.S., apparently.
Same provider has been showing Season 4 of late (the Marwan-steals-a-nuclear-warhead-after-blowing-up-Air-Force-One-after-hacking-US-nuclear-facilities-after-kidnapping-the-SecDef storyline) and I am SO happy as that was one of my favorite seasons ever.
Although watching it now, I’ve changed my mind about a few things. Audrey Heller (SecDef Heller’s daughter and Jack’s GF, though separated from her husband Paul) is really annoying me. 🙂
Chloe as always rocks. And poor Curtis, the hardest working man at CTU, gets sent off on one awful mission after another, completes it well, and gets stiffed on recognition/glory in lieu of Jack, time and again.
@ Nancy:
Good point as well, Nancy.
dee wrote:
This website also has an article about his phoney PhD degree – I was wondering why the lawsuit listed him as Dr. All the lies! And all the fake PhDs from pastors do nothing but devalue the real PhD degrees, of which I’ve had friends invest years of their lives into earning.
Really staring to think I need to re-create myself – I’m clearly not earning enough being in the secular world!
dee wrote:
Dee, I heard this “from the horses mouth” in Systematic Theology III course at SBTS taught by Dr. Moore. He was very clear that he did not accept the “L” in limited atonement.
dee wrote:
“Enemy of my Enemy is My Friend.”
“FOR THE ALLIANCE!”
“FOR THE HORDE!”
“FOR THE CAUSE!”
Seems like Georgia Baptists are all in for both Caners. Peter Lumpkins is the new VP of communications at Brewton-Parker, hired by Ergun Caner I presume. Lumpkins is Caner’s biggest cheerleader, er, enabler…
Liars ok but don’t you dare call a woman pastor! http://www.abpnews.com/archives/item/5876-georgia-baptists-oust-second-church-with-woman-pastor#.U2jotn-9KSN
ALBANY, Ga. (ABP) – For the second year in a row, the Georgia Baptist Convention has withdrawn fellowship from one of its most historic member churches for calling a woman as pastor.
Lola wrote:
I wonder if Caner got the rhythm and sounds right for a Middle Eastern language. Or at least close enough for an English-speaking target audience. That’s what actors do when they have to fake a language — they get the rhythm and sounds to match the language they’re faking. For Arabic, it’s the hacking consonants and wailing vowels.
Note that in all cases it was someone who spoke Arabic and was familiar with the b/g culture Caner was claiming who exposed him. And probably got turned into a pile of rocks by Caner’s audience-turned-fanboys.
Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
If your name’s Lola, you need to get a sex change first. It’s NO GURLZ ALLOWED among the Big Dogs.
Who knew Columbus, Ohio was so rough?!
dee wrote:
Glad someone found it out. But it should have been discovered long before a Muslim student had to point it out. People who employed him should have verified. Christians are supposed to seek the truth; it appears that many didn’t, and perhaps didn’t want to. Ugh.
Nancy wrote:
Remember: The more extreme (i.e. “JUICY! JUICY! JUICY!”) the pre-Altar Call testimony, the better it scratches those itchy ears. How else can Respectable Church Ladies vicariously enjoy all that Forbidden Fruit?
And nobody ever got poor by telling an audience what that audience WANTS to hear.
Amy Smith wrote:
Don’t forget those mean streets of Lancaster, PA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Bwhahahahaha! 🙂
Amy Smith wrote:
Oh, now I am seriously ROTFLMAO. Fear the black flags of the Columbus, Ohio Ansar-al-Shariah brigades!
@ Rafiki:
You sound like me. You kept the story alive during the dead years. I could not believe the Twitterverse yesterday! Christians of all stripes: conservative, liberal, moderates, YEC, TE, charismatic, etc.-all were awaiting the opening salvo. Perhaps this is the key to unity in evangelicalism: we all believe in Jack Bauer!
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Thank you for letting me know. always find these differences interesting.
Amy Smith wrote:
Hypocrisy at its finest! Do they do the same with pedophile protecting churches?
dee wrote:
Brilliant!
Admiration of Jack Bauer and an appreciation of cute shoes will surely win the day! 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG, you are on a roll today my friend. 🙂
John wrote:
Well, its been verified now and he still is the “President” of a college. The problem is quite simple. They.Just. Don’t.Care.
So long as he is a member of their tribe, he is golden. Caner is the darling of the old SBC. CJ is the darling of the Calvinist SBC even though he is not even Baptist, for crying out loud! This is contest between theological doctrines and it is plain disgusting-on both sides!
Rafiki wrote:
It sure beats parsing who is in and who is out via rigid doctrinal distinctions.
@ Rafiki:
Thank you for making me laugh. I am a closet Three Stooges fan and have even read the “official” biography.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Just going to Yentl it! 🙂
dee wrote:
Yes ma’am. Absolutely. Quite right. Spot on. I could go on, but you get the picture.
There is this also, that we are making the assumption that “they” did not know about this guy all along. I would just about put money on it that one or some people knew and decided it was to their own advantage to keep silent. It is some kind of easy to find out in the US where and when somebody was born, and where if not exactly when the SS number was issued, and school records can be requested all the way back to the get go, and SSA offices have lists of private translators in huge numbers of languages so track down one of them to verify the language. How do I know? When my daughter did the international adoption thing they had lots of dealings with the SSA people who, apparently, can get information about everything except your blood type. That info is coming soon–I kid you not. And that is just the SSA people. And it is easy, because there are agencies that do background checks for a reasonable fee for the asking, with signed consent of course.
Nah. Somebody knew and did not care. And somebody else knew that somebody knew, and they also kept silent. The scarlet D on their clothes stands for devious, not dumb.
Of continuing interest is Emir’s part in all this. Since he has not stated the lies that Ergun has, he has largely been ignored. But he was there (in the family, at least) for Ergun’s training in Cairo and other places (if it had happened) and has been by Ergun’s side on numerous interviews/TV shows. Of course he has benefitted from the book authorship.
When you consider the whole story and the whole family, there were many people (SBC and others) who ignored the “contradictory facts.” You just can’t make it fit together no matter how hard you try.
One of the conversations that I would like to listen to was the (continuing?) discussion between the Caner brothers on how the people in these churches were “eating out of Ergun’s hand” (or ever what the phrase is in Turkish). When did Emir “sell out” to the “dark side” or did he?
Nancy wrote:
You know, I had not thought about this. Thank you.
Bennett Willis wrote:
You might find Wade’s post of interest.
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2010/04/experts-in-islam-is-emir-caner_26.html
dee wrote:
Not just a “Christian” thing. My wife was on the board of the local rape crisis group for about 4 or 5 years. The main job of the board was fund raising, not oversight. Anyway after we discovered that some of the “true stories” that were used to get people to “really care” and open their purses were just not true but urban legends, well the director and staff just didn’t care. They were good stories and helped raise money. One of the reasons we left.
See for many people, Christians or not, the ends justify the means. Which is not what I though was the way to lead a Christian life.
I was wondering why the name Ergun Caner sounded so familiar to me; I went to Liberty University during the ’04-’05 year(only one year- I didn’t feel safe enough to stay longer than that).
Students were required to participate in “Convocation” on Monday, Wednesday, and Fridays; it’s like a mandatory church time. There were usually guest speakers. One day, the speaker was a Saudi Arabian Muslim, who said he followed the strictest way of Islam. Naturally, we students were hanging onto his every word as he described what his religion meant to him. He then started to say things that were very disturbing to us. He mentioned having seven wives, saying things like, “That’s just the way things are,” and about honor killings and stuff like that.
I and my fellow students were quite concerned, you could see it on our faces. During the whole time he was speaking, I prayed that we could show him the Truth by our love in word and deed, and that he would be touched by us young, caring Christians. I talked to my classmates afterward, and they said the same thing. All our hearts went out to this man and his family.
Near the end of his speech, the man pulled off his turban and beard, and said, surprise, it was all a trick. He wasn’t from Saudi Arabia, he was an actor, who gave us all this false story in order to illustrate a point. I don’t remember the point he was trying to make, but we all sure felt duped.
That was one of the worst experiences I had during my time at Liberty. Funny part is, a few weeks later, we had a guest speaker who suffered from Cerebral Palsy. Poor guy, I hope he didn’t notice the suspicious glares we gave him before we realized he wasn’t another imposter.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
A phrase that always reminds me of AVP * – which, incidentally, was nothing like as bad a film as some people have said. It’s not profound cinema, but it never pretends to be.
info if needed: Alien Versus Predator
Nancy wrote:
I remember just before the turn of the century talking comparative religion with a Menominee tribal medicine man in Northern Wisconsin, he said of Evangelical Christianity:
“…it’s a strange religion son…it really is…”
Lola wrote:
Well, Driscoll might have his name trademarked for his proven method of bullying people and throwing them under the bus, as in “You’re Driscolled! We want you out of here within 5 minutes!”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Should we consider these men to be part of the entertainment industry then?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Agreed Nick. I think AVP succeeds as a lesser sci-fi film because of its unsaid technical plausibility and because the bipedal race of trophy hunters able to navigate vast interstellar distances have more in common with us than Spielberg’s cuddly ETs.
@ NC Now:
The excuse I have heard is that they are “parables”, supposedly like Jesus told when he was teaching. Only trouble is, Jesus made clear that he was speaking in parables. Most “preacher stories” (aka outright lies) and put forward as a report of something that actually and truly happened, usually to the speaker or someone with whom he was close.
An Attorney wrote:
Hard to call them parables when you use “me” or “my friend” or “research” or “the news carried and item”.
🙂
Hester wrote:
I was just kind of talking about that <a href="And if you don’t have a big shiny testimony like this, you might not really be saved. In other words, kids for whom Proverbs 22:6 succeeded (i.e., were raised in the church and never walked away), are in some ways subtly punished for it, even though that’s ostensibly the outcome they want." I was just talking about that here (post on previous thread)
I was pretty much a “goody-goody” my whole life. I accepted Christ as Savior at a pretty young age.
Churches and people who make Christian television programs don’t seem to like bland testimonies like mine, they seem to prefer drastic ones, like ones by a lady who says she worked as a prostitute and was a crack addict who later finds Jesus.
Which is great and everything that prostitutes find Jesus, but it makes me uneasy how some churches make how or when a person gets saved into some kind of competitive sport.
I also think that stressing glamorous testimonies works against Christians, because I’m going to guess that 99% of people who watch their shows live hum drum, ordinary non-prostitute, non-crack addict lives, like people who live in the suburbs who hold 9 to 5 jobs.
If such a person is watching the usual ex prostitute or ex biker testimony, they might feel the only person who really needs Jesus is someone whose life is way out there. They might think, “I’m not a drug addict, why do I need Jesus?”
Or, how would they be able to relate? I don’t know why churches or Christian TV don’t have people who have had more average lives giving testimonies.
Rafiki wrote:
Is this the group that hyper ventilates and throws hissy fits over any military person’s use of the word God, or display of religious beliefs, by the military, or around military premises? I don’t support groups like that.
This kind of thing is ridiculous:
Air Force Academy removes Bible verse from cadet’s whiteboard
@ dee:
Thank you. 🙂 I don’t know if I would have the time to start up a blog about all this. (I probably won’t be online much, starting sometime in another month or so, unless my plans get shuffled around again.)
I minored in journalism back in college (but later dropped it). The odd thing is, I did not like writing research papers back in college. I sometimes like looking up information, but I guess it has to be a subject I’m interested in.
My mind also works in patterns, where I see parallels between topics, which I hope doesn’t annoy anyone on this blog or anything, but when someone says something about one thing, it might tip off another topic in my mind, or bring to mind a similar story I’ve seen before (like the link I gave about about preachers lying about being Navy SEALs).
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Changing slightly the context of the quote, I used to be on the treasury team of what I joined as a church but that turned out to be more of a speaker-vehicle Christian organisation.
At a certain point, the weekly offering averaged around £500, but needed to be £1000 to match the spending targets of the organisation. And it so happened on one Sunday around that time there were two visiting speakers, one of whom took up a special impromptu offering for the other one who was from overseas. Both of these offerings came to around £500. I mentioned this to the CEO, noting that £1000 was at least possible on a Sunday. A few days later he announced that the offerings were now up to £1000 a week.
In itself this is a small thing, but it’s one more instance of a lack of truthfulness that is tolerated in church but for which a the CEO of a listed company would be censured (or, in rare circumstances, even prosecuted).
@ dee:
Preachers shouldn’t be making up stories to make their sermons more interesting. Billy Graham used to do just fine quoting things from contemporary news items.
On a related matter, some preachers like to use their family members as sermon examples constantly. It was parodied on The Lark:
Pastor welcomes birth of second sermon illustration
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This kind of thing seems to be an attribute (flaw?) of many that go into marketing. And harking back to the other comment made about marketing….
More and more I think that many pastors are not really spreading the message of Christ so much as trying to fill up their ego well. The new Pope seems to be not of this type, much to the consternation of many in the Catholic church who are.
@ Toffeemama:
That is really weird. It’s like this story I posted a few months ago of a church that staged a fake arrest of one of their preachers during a service, to make a point about persecution:
Mock Arrests of Ohio Pastors Create Confusion
@ Daisy:
IMHO preachers should never use any real person as an example or sermon embelishment unless the real person is unnamed or has given permission for his/her story/example to be used. Preachers should be extremely careful when using their own family members. The only thing gained by name dropping is entisement. Is that really how a preacher wants to present scripture? If they want to share a persons story — let the person share it themselves. Scripture and examples can be shared by more than just a pastor.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, those JUICY JUICY JUICY testimonies are for the benefit of the audience in the pews. How else can Respectable Christians get a thrill and indulge their fantasies of experiencing all that Forbidden Fruit? How else can Respectable Church Ladies get their porn fix?
NC Now wrote:
And why not be honest. Just say: ” I heard a story once . . ..” No claims of truthiness or first hand knowledge.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I wish they’d just filmed the Dark Horse graphic novel version of AVP which came out a few years before. Completely unrelated story, sharing only the AVP premise.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, You might want to learn what the MRFF is about,. Most of their clients are Christians who don’t fit the evangelical,fundagelical standards. They are just men and women who want to be left alone to celebrate their faith in the manner they see fit without command influence.
Toffeemama wrote:
First red flag: SEVEN wives. If he’s that strict observance, he would claim no more than four official wives.
They used to do something similar in American high schools during the Cold War, except then the guest speaker portrayed a Soviet Party Official. Basic script was the same, though, including the reveal at the end.
dee wrote:
Agree. Total lack of character.
dee wrote:
Agree. Total lack of character. Nancy wrote:
So, the thing is, if he said he was born in Perth Amboy to an Amish couple, no one would even be interested, and i can understand his origins passing under the radar. But this guy is a self proclaimed JIHADIST. You can bet your sweet tush I would vet him halfway to Tripoli. How did they not know that he wasn’t some closet terrorist trying to embed himself in the church in order to fly a plane into Johnny Hunt’s boudoir? The fact that he wasn’t vetted enough to inure out his lies inclines me to believe you are correct – someone knew all along and didn’t care.
Anon wrote:
“PERSECUTION!!!!!!!!!!”
By The World and The DEVIL, seeking to slander a ManaGawd.
That’s the way they always spin it.
dee wrote:
The Arrogance of the Predestined Elect.
Amazing what a “Get out of Hell Free” card signed by God before the foundation of the world can do to your attitude.
Especially if “I’m One of The Elect AND YOU’RE NOT! HAW! HAW! HAW!”
dee wrote:
Only if the pedo is (dum dum dummmmmm) HOMOSEXUAL(TM)!
dee wrote:
Bud of mine on the East Coast is a BIG Stooges fan.
Rafiki wrote:
And just for you & Dee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKAfXdb5LsA
NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!
__
(multiple choice) : Why is da ‘CainMan’ (C) the way he is?
A.Back-Off Jack: All ministers have a special dispensation to stretch the truth if it servers “The Gospel” (TM)?
B. ‘CainMan’ (C) just all fall down n’ bumped his widdle head. Why is everybuddy laughing at a such a very sick religion dispenser; why aren’t you paying for his “treatment”?
C. Maybe when he was little, telling lies was the only way he could get attention…now he is on to bigger and better audiences?
D. Religion pays, in his case, very well?
E. He is just a paid USO entertainer; did you forget to laugh?
F. He thought church folks N’ jarines R’ just plain s-t-u-p-i-d?
G. All of the above?
—
To Daisy:
he Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) is dedicated to ensuring that all members of the United States Armed Forces fully receive the Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom to which they and all Americans are entitled by virtue of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Over 37,000 active duty, veteran, and civilian personnel of the United States Armed Forces have come to our foundation for redress and assistance in resolving or alerting the public to their civil rights grievances, with hundreds more contacting MRFF each day. 96% of them are Christians themselves.
This is slightly off-topic, but I’m wondering if anyone on the board has information on Walid Shoebat, a self-proclaimed former jihadist turned evangelical Christian who does the same thing Ergun Caner does – speak to church groups, military/police, etc. about the dangers of Islam, and publish books about his life as a jihadist. They may have even spoken on the same platform at times. There are hints floating around that he, like Caner, may be a fraud; but I haven’t been able to track them to an impartial source (most of his critics are people who seem to hate his message about Islam and/or the fact that he represents Christianity).
I have some good friends who are caught up in his teachings and have adopted his “Islam is THE Antichrist” theory wholesale, and if he isn’t trustworthy, I’m not sure how or whether to bring it up to them.
@ NC Now:
Would quote marks improve that. Dee/Deb can you go back to my comment about parables vs. lies and put quotes around “parable”. Thanks.
Ya. Leaders have known about Caner. Welcome in the wolves. Kick out the sheep . .
well, the discerning, responsible sheep, that is. . .
In 2011, Calvary Chapel member, Nick VanderLoan, was arrested for speaking out during a Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa conference to warn others about Caner.
http://calvarychapelabuse.com/wordpress/?p=1533
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhRwVwqIT0Q (the long, 59 minute version)
from http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2012/11/calvary-chapel-arrested-member-warning.html
“Former NBA player Nick VanderLaan, a recent money-giving member of Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, tells his story of being detained against his will and then arrested for speaking out at a meeting to question the presence of the controversial Ergun Caner.
He attended a special meeting at CCCM featuring Ergun Caner as the guest-speaker. Previous to the meeting, Nick expressed his concern to CCCM Leadership, believing he had the right and responsibility to do so as a giving member of the Church. His concerns were basically ignored.
At the meeting, Nick stood up to challenge Caner’s presence. He was non-violent and merely spoke out and spoke up. . . . .
He was immediately surrounded and detained by the Calvary Chapel goon squad . . .
The goon squad cuffed Nick up, took him to another part of the church, denied him bathroom and water and detained him against his will for a prolonged period of time. Santa Ana police arrived later and arrested and charged Nick.”
texaswildflower wrote:
The Caner has metastasized…
(I wonder if Shoebat & Caner would come to blows backstage over “You Stole MY Shtick!” like Mike Warnke and John Todd…)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ty 4 bringing up the Warnke dude and the correct emphasis on MY…
I’m dating myself to say that I thoroughly enjoyed Mike W’s stuff while a newly saved Christian in high school…was disappointed for him and his followers when I found out that he was revealed to be a fake, a few years ago. But not hurt. I figure this stuff happens, and I did not spend one penny on him…Had at least one friend who just worshiped him, though….
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Priceless stories!!! Maybe one of those celebs can learn from these!
NOT!
Had never heard of this guy before!! Tyfs! It’s awful that he was a sexual predator, but all of the things he claimed are extremely funny….
http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.com/2011/03/prodigal-witch-part-iii-john-todd.html
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Yeah, I have been wondering this, too. Did it never occur to anybody that this guy could be dangerous???
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
It may have been only four wives, and my horrified little mind remembered it as seven. He definitely said that the more wives you have, the better off you are seen as in his community.
I can’t remember for sure if it was Caner doing the acting, or just some guy they hired, but he does look reeeeeal familiar….
A lot of people I’ve met had a great experience at LU, but I did not.
The first time I heard Warnke back in the very early 80’s I never believed all his claptrap. He sounded like Kathryn Kuhlman to me, I mean the video’s I saw of her. He is no different than Bob Lar$on with is fake exorcisms and now he has his daughter in on the act. They are the hack versions as opposed to Jack Chick (who is an honest nutter) but he is a nutter and Dave Hunt who has not attained the nutter status of Jack but he still is way off. How many times have we been peddled the utter pathetic dishonest rhetoric from any one of many clowns in the circus. Funny thing is I felt the same way when I first heard Doug Phillips dressed up in his costumes and the Titanic Women and Children first. We saw how that worked out. But the clown car is full and the circus still goes on. One thing I can tell you, personally I am no longer impressed and the voodoo spell has been broken and I find that freeing.
Just an aside, Grow up, that is my advice, just grow up. Thanks JA for letting me spew out my blabber.
nmgirl wrote:
Thanks for the additional info, nm. The issue is “command influence” here.
In the latest USAF Academy case, the scripture quotes posted by the cadet who was indeed in command of other cadets was on a whiteboard used for official communications purposes in a public space, NOT inside the cadet’s personal living quarters.
Bennett Willis wrote:
The family that lies together, makes money together and stays together!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Strictly speaking they are allowed up to four wives if they can treat them equally. According to one of my cousins who is an Imam, that really means you should have only one as it’s impossible to treat each woman the same.
Tired wrote:
Great insight from an Imam, thanks Tired.
@ texaswildflower:
TX, I have no idea who the person is you referenced.
However, think about it: do you think for one moment that anyone who was actually a former member of such groups would run around the U.S. or any other Western country talking openly about it?
I highly doubt it. More likely they’d be lying very low, particularly if they are in the U.S.
@ Rafiki:
Staying hidden would be what I think they are apt to do. However, the virtues of martyrdom have a place in both islam and christianity. I don’t know how to balance those two variables in somebody else’s mind. If anybody has any information on that I would be interested in hearing it.
@ An Attorney:
I wasn’t meaning to be critical. I was basically piling on your comments. 🙂
This is all about “white elephants”. This what my father called the gimmick based way to “get them into the pews”.
It was a sad day recently when the church I grew up in had a gun give away to “draw them in”. My father and grandfather’s names are etched into cornerstones as the heads of the building committees that headed up the building of the current building and founded the church. If such things really happened they would have been spinning in their graves.
Dan Marvin wrote:
With the greatest respect, I think it’s easy to understand. An obvious gift is, by definition, a gift that everybody looks at and admires. And he uses that gift precisely in order to fabricate his life.
I think we’ve become dangerously over-enamoured of the gift of oratory, to the point where we have mistaken it for the anointing. But a “preaching gift” is simply the ability to speak well in public. In fact, “oratory” (or anything similar) is not a NT gift at all, and in fact, many of Paul’s struggles with the Corinthian church came at the hands of those who tried to take it over for themselves based on the fact that their oratory (or “preaching gift” as we might call it today) was better, more polished, more self-assured and masterful, and more sophisticated than Paul’s was.
S8n himself is transformed (a strong word in Greek) into an angel of light; how much more his servants? A man can be steeped in evil intention, or at best be grossly self-centred and immature, and still stand up in a consecrated building and give a fine sermon on a theologically admirable topic. The converse is true as well, of course. A person’s fruit – good or bad – is rarely evident in the pulpit.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You want to see Oratory in action, take a look at Triumph of the Will.
I’ve concluded that “transformed into an angel of light” is also an idiom for how successful sociopaths are masters at camouflaging what they are. Nobody is as truthful as a sociopath, as concerned as a sociopath, as compassionate as a sociopath, as polite as a sociopath, as helpful as a sociopath, as supportive as a sociopath, as virtuous as a sociopath — until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.
NC Now wrote:
“FOR ZARDOZ YOUR GOD GAVE YOU THE GIFT OF THE GUN.
THE GUN IS GOOD!”
Toffeemama wrote:
That would fit with a polygnous culture. The bigger your harem, richer you have to be and the higher your status as an Alpha Male. Like Trophy Wives in plural.
Marie2 wrote:
John Todd was One Weird Dude. The Francis E Dec of Christianese Conspiracy Theory Survivalists. I first heard of them from the Corerstone expose:
http://www.icyte.com/system/snapshots/fs1/0/0/5/4/00543e12a9048eb881dbc3186b47c4b694ac5967/index.html
And later one of my writing partners (the burned-out preacher) told me he’d been taken in by Todd in his End Time Prophecy heyday — and presented his copies of Todd’s Conspiracy/Survivalist Newsletters as proof.
Tired wrote:
I’ve got some good friends from Kenya and Somalia who have multiple wives (in America they call them “girlfriends” to be legal, but they are muslim marriages and behave as such even if there is no legal force behind the arrangements). Anyway, their understanding of “equal” is affection and wealth (mostly wealth). In other words, if you can’t take a second wife without reducing the standard of living for your first wife, then don’t get married. Also, if you are getting a second wife because you don’t like your first one, don’t get married. Interestingly, these men are quite happy in their polygamy, and so are their wives, who are also my friends, but in a different sort of way, since their culture still doesn’t believe that men and women can have an equitable friendship.
Deebs –
Have you read Camille Lewis’ blog today. I wondered why she went silent after TWW article. Unbelievable. Totalitarianism. In. Christendom.
And Christian leaders are concerned about “cyber terrorists?” Really?
I read it and it seems to me that BJU is guilty of defamation wrt Camille by what was said to NGU. And hopefully NGU has a spine to stand up to that kind of evil, because that is was BJU is doing, evil.
@ An Attorney:
I was left with the impression that Camille no longer works at NGU, which is why she could now write the blog post. If that is the case (she no longer works at NGU), I’m not convinced that NGU stood up to anything.
@ Bridget:
I am in touch with her and will try to get the story out after I hear directly from her. I think her post at TWW is part of the focus along with the NYT article. More to come.
http://www.drslewis.org/camille/2014/05/06/tuesday-peace-came-from-above/
@ An Attorney:
Do you mind if I forward this comment to her?
@ texaswildflower:
I will try to look into this.
@ texaswildflower:
Take a look at this on Wikipedia. I know its a quick check but the questions it raises are well documented at the bottom of the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat
Sounds suspicious.
@ Bridget:
We will be talking about this in the next two days.
@ dee:
Not at all.
__
North Greenville University President Dr. James B. Epting,
Respectfully,
Why is Linwood Hagin issuing a “cease and desist” gag order to Dr. Camille Lewis, on behalf of North Greenville University?
Q. Has North Greenville University covered up sexual abuse as well as allegedly Bob Jones University has?
Discerning minds wish to know.
Why is Linwood Hagin threatening to discharge Dr. Camille Lewis next year if she fails to adhere to the NGU gag order concerning alleged BJU sexual abuse?
You said: “This is one way Christ makes the difference at NGU: There is no one to stand in the way of the progress of the Gospel Truth, no one to put stumbling blocks in the spiritual paths of our student body. ”
http://www.ngu.edu/admin-staff.php
Yet your University is now putting stumbling blocks in the paths of Truth and Investigative Reporting, a first amendment right, guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
Please reconsider your actions.
Is your University expected to maintain a lifestyle consistent with Christian moral standards. Many are now questioning your University commitment to those standards.
Please respond.
Is NGU really a Christ-centered environment when gaging those who would seek to uncover the truth of alleged sexual abuse on a major Baptist University, to bring relief and justice to those who’s sexual abuse stories have already been told, whose abuse has been documented to have occurred under a formal investigation?
Again, please reconsider your University actions on behalf of Dr. Camille Lewis, and the unfortunate victims of alleged Baptist campus sexual abuse.
—
Since the subject of limited atonement (aka definite atonement or particular redemption) has come up, I think it’s good to remember that the concept didn’t come into existence because Calvin or someone else was daydreaming one day and came up with it. There are parts of the Bible that apparently promote it. Of course, we can choose to ignore them and only look at the parts that apparently promote the idea that Jesus died for all but didn’t save all. But I don’t think that would be honest.
For starters, the Greek word usually translated “elect” appears over 20 times in the NT, and, with one exception, when it talks of angels, it speaks of a certain group of people chosen by God to be His. There are places where Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him, that no one can come to Him unless it is granted to him by the Father, and that His people are those the Father has given him.
Paul says God’s people were chosen by Him before the foundation of the world, and that He predestined them to be adopted through Jesus for Himself, according to His favor and will.
Acts 13:48 says: “When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.” (HCSB)
As I said, this is just for starters. Argue with the concept if you like, but I don’t think it’s right to just dismiss the idea out of hand as if it’s just foolishness.
JeffB wrote:
@ Bridget:
Didn’t mean to quote all of that.
Don’t you think that many of us have considered all of the scriptures for and against election before we have come to a conclusion? We can come to a different conclusion – no?
__
“To the ends of the earth, it is given…”
hmmm…
Yes, dear Wartburg Watch reader, there are those full of all subtilty and all mischief, seed of the devil, enemies of all righteousness, who cease not to pervert the right ways of the Lord…
Fear them not!
…be not un-believing, but believe!
The light of the Gospel, is purposed by God Almighty that it should be for salvation unto the ends of the earth!
So it is written -to all men and women; to the children of Abraham’s seed as well, and whosoever fears God, to them is the word of His great salvation sent!
It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to the God’s people, the Israelites: but seeing they put this word away from themselves, and judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, God raised up Paul the Apostle, and turn’d him to the Gentiles. For so did the Lord commanded him (Paul) , saying, I have set you to be a light of the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Many have believed this report…
Will you not believe Jesus, and inherit eternal life, as well?
His eyes are ever upon the sparrow…
‘Whosoever’ shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and will believe in your heart, that God has raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved…
I assure you He is listening…still,
Blessings!
Sopy
—
@ Bridget:
Yes, of course. I was mainly responding to two statements from two commenters: “I don’t think Jesus knew about Mohler’s little wrinkle on things. But that’s just My Personal Opinion.” And: “I don’t see how it is possible to justify this with *so much* scripture to the contrary.”
I wanted to show that Jesus said things that promoted “Mohler’s little wrinkle,” and that, in general, it was “possible to justify this” with Scripture to the contrary, whether or not it’s considered to be “so much.”
As a footnote: Mohler says in the article that he doesn’t consider opposing views to be heresy, and neither do I.
Marie2 wrote:
Not too funny if you’re a Todd True Believer holed up in Ruby Ridge against the Satanic Illuminati Gubmint.
What got me was Todd’s Ruby Ridge connection — that was a new one on me. Apparently he was an influence on the Weavers and a possible reason they decamped to Ruby Ridge — the image of John Todd waving a pistol in their living room ranting about The Gubmint is a lot more scary than funny.
And as for him doing 17 years for multiple counts of statutory rape, isn’t one of the common reasons for founding a cult is so the Cult Leader can get laid a lot? And he’s not the only Cult Leader/ManaGawd with a thing for jail bait.
Ardiak wrote:
It is sad that one of the Ten Commandments doesn’t matter to the evangelical leaders. Those who speak out against lies are muzzled and treated to an arrest, while those who tell a great, and false, but entertaining story, are celebrity preachers. I would walk out of that church and pour the dust out of my shoes if I were to witness this kind of treatment. It is almost a form of newspeak what you are describing.
Federal judge rules that Caner lied, not only wrt the suit, but before the suit was even filed. Lied about his background, his upbringing, where he went to school, etc. Awards $34K in attorney fees to Autry’s attorney.
An Attorney wrote:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/