Second!

correction: *since convicted*

Dee – honestly, this post is such a succinct encapsulation of what TWW stands for. It’s jam-packed with research (will take me a while to go through all the links) and should be a “must-read” for newer members of the TWW community.

Will in particular look forward to reading the ABP article on the “summit” and the Christian Century article.

That photo of Ceej and “the gang” says it all, doesn’t it? 🙁

As for Tim Bayly – when is the PCA going to take responsibility for this sad little man in their midst?! Not that there is likely anything that can be done, Presbyterian “government” being what it is …

Jesus referred to “the least of these” as those to whom Christians are to minister, care, etc. When abused children get more attention that the push to deny civil rights to adults based on their gender preferences, I will reconsider my belief that none of the named “Christian” leaders deserve the title “Christian”, because they surely are not living in commitment to the commands of the Christ.

So many red flags.

If people rant constantly about sexual sins among homosexuals and ignore sexual sins among heterosexuals, why do they do that? Do they hate sin or don’t they? Could it be partly to create a diversion?

If people are maniacal about authority structures and hierarchy and control and dominance, why would that be? What do they think might “get out of control” that they might be afraid of?

And if they even go so far as to ignore sex abuse of children and adolescents, which our whole culture believes to be wrong (at least we hope so) then what has driven them to this extreme? Why would they tell the men to get the porn off their computers but not tell them to get their hands off the kids? Do they maybe think that a little “friendliness” with a child is not really all that wrong?

I will leave the theories to people who are better at it than I am. But as one who has had a lot of close up observation of non-neo-Cal evangelical / fundamentalist thinking at its worst it is my observation that there is so much @#$% that needs cleaned up in that system that if they even start in the direction of clean up the whole system just might crumble like the walls of Jericho.

Don wrote:

So, you have nothing to add about the serious topic discussed above?

Et tu?

@ Don:

There you go, Don. Just a few kind words from a little old lady to start the day off.

Collin Hansen wrote a tough article on Joe Paterno before he was convicted link. Why do they not see themselves in this critique?

Because Joe Pa is one of those HEATHENS.

WE have THE Perfectly Parsed, Utterly Correct Theology!
WE HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED BY *GOD* TO DO NO WRONG!
(CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN!)

Every time I see that picture of the neoCal Pharisees sitting in the front row of their synagogue, I have this vision of them getting up on stage and singing

but my dreams they aren’t as empty, as my conscience seems to be”

Will the next ERLC summit in October deal with child sex abuse? Need you ask? Link It's about homosexuality, once again… The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention announced today a new national conference addressing “The Gospel, Homosexuality, and the Future of Marriage” to be held at the iconic Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., October 27-29, 2014.

They're the background characters from Lenny Bruce's "Masked Man". Specifically, the one townsman who after Masked Man outs himself and Tonto, just stands around pointing at Masked Man screaming "FAAAAG! FAAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAG!" for the entire remainder of the skit.

You do know that Boz is not invited to these sex summits-don't you? Yet his group actually cares for the abused children: GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Setting link.) It is quite telling that ERLC has not invited Boz Tchividjian to their sex summits. It appears the issue of homosexuality far outweighs the concern for kids who are being abused in churches around the world.

"FAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAAAG!" As we have seen with Douggie ESQUIRE, Godly Gothard, and Shaft-Polishing Schaapf, going after Jail Bait and kids is OK as long as the kids are opposite sex. If it's same-sex, it's HOMOSEXUALITY(TM); opposite sex, it's Privilege of Rank for the Predestined Elect, a reward for their Perfectly-Parsed Correct Theology.

BACA presents a far different picture of the Gospel in action. BACA stands for Bikers Against Child Abuse link. I wonder, does Al Mohler or Kevin DeYoung's church show concern for abuse victims like this group?

They're BIKERS, not Head Apostles and CELEBRITY Pastors, not Predestined Elect, not God's Speshul Pets. No Perfectly-Parsed Theology, no Honorary Doctorates awarded by other Head Apostles and CELEBRITY Pastors they rub shoulders with at Conferences. Where are their Megachurches? Their Gigachurches? Their best-selling Christianese books? Their Perfect Theology training seminars? Their Conferences? Why, they've NEVER even heard of Calvin's Institutes!

Nancy wrote:

I will leave the theories to people who are better at it than I am. But as one who has had a lot of close up observation of non-neo-Cal evangelical / fundamentalist thinking at its worst it is my observation that there is so much @#$% that needs cleaned up in that system that if they even start in the direction of clean up the whole system just might crumble like the walls of Jericho.

Like Gorbachev’s Perestroika and the Soviet System; once any reform began, the whole system just fell completely apart.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:

Scratch that link. Here is the link I meant to post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z_UUNSskzU&feature=em-share_video_user

Dee or Deb, can you correct that for me?

Rafiki wrote:

That photo of Ceej and “the gang” says it all, doesn’t it? 🙁

“These six Kings said one to another:
‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
(Even the one token black.)

And you get the Perqs — front seat at the synagogue, with liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before you to announce how HUMBLE you are.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Exactly. On a slightly different bent, here, I note that China has undergone some reform away from some of the worst abuses of communism and has had a rather controlled dissolution of the system. That missiologist that I used to quote got into why the state church in Russia collapsed under communism but christianity in China is flourishing. Interesting thing about what happens when things change.

@ Adam Borsay: Check this out

http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics

Look at the connections between drug abuse and sexual abuse as a child. Look at all the connections. Your experience must be small, sheltered, and insignificant if you're not aware of the world around you.

Just so nobody misses this…

TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly. They split a few years ago because the PCA was not patriarchal enough for them. Heck, even the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that Tim helped to found back in the day, was ultimately not patriarchal enough. Because nothing is as -properly patriarchal- as the Bayly clan and their Clearnote churches centered in Indiana. They’ve basically started their own microdenomination and now are going for their own college or seminary (or both).

Love this article, Dee. I’ve seen an interview with that biker group before and it left me in tears. No attention to SELF, but genuine love and respect for the victim and their family. As it should be. I’m so tired of these ridiculous clowns who wear the Neo Calvinist hats. They need to wear a scarlet letter A for Apathy.

Leaders = persuading by their good example. The members of BACA seem to meet this definition. I have seen so many great examples of leaders on the TWW and other “discernment” blogs, ranging from young girls to old men, and few of them have ever been to seminary. The people I meet here often encourage my own faint-hearted self to be brave on behalf of others.

@ Adam Borsay:

Dear Adam,

I understand that perhaps your churches are whites only…..or you and your colleagues are just plain sheltered….In any case, I do hope you can take the time to read at least this much information.

I understand that your loyalties are to your specific flocks’ perceived needs. I do hope, though, that God opens your eyes to the incredible need.

Even if none of your parishioners have experienced this themselves, which in the face of many statistics I find difficult to believe, in each person’s sphere of influence, he/she is bound to come across this issue.

Why not try to equip the saints to address this societal issue? What happened to evangelism, and caring for the least of these?????

You have in the past sounded like a caring person. Please don’t turn a calloused eye towards this and just walk away. You’ve faced difficulties in your ministries, before, right? I hope you can be brave enough to stay here, read the recommended links, and talk about the issue, instead of just saying “It has nothing to do with my life.” Statistics speak loudly that you will one day have to confront this issue, and it would be better to prepare wisely.

http://thegrio.com/2012/08/01/childhood-sexual-abuse-and-aids-in-the-black-community-are-linked/

New research raises the question of a link between childhood sexual abuse and a higher risk for HIV/AIDS.

The study, conducted by Drexel University, tracked 40,000 people, including a significant number of blacks and Hispanics. The data suggests that not only was childhood sexual abuse linked to risky sexual behavior as an adolescent or adult, but could also impact getting tested, diagnosed and starting treatment once infected with HIV.

According to Dr. Theresa Sweet, one of the study authors at the Drexel University School of Public Health, “childhood sexual abuse was defined as being touched or fondled in a sexual way, [or] forced or attempted sexual intercourse before the age of 17.”

Data from the Black Women’s Health Imperative has long pointed to high rates of sexual abuse in the black community. It shows that 40 percent of black women have experienced some form of sexual assault or abuse.

“This study is not designed to further stigmatize men and women who experienced some form of sexual abuse or violence, nor is it a suggestion that all people living with HIV were previously abused,” Sweet says.

“We don’t really know why some people who are abused fair better than others, but we do know that some people who can talk about what happened to them and have a support system, whether it be family, mental health support seem to [do] better,” she adds.

You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know. – William Wilberforce

Don wrote:

So, you have nothing to add about the serious topic discussed above? Just a text selfie?@ Nancy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a14vFqlYigc

NJ wrote:

They’ve basically started their own microdenomination…

“Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…

Oh, wait, you mean “cult”. OK that I understand. 😉 As to the Bayly brothers being cultish — well, that’s not news to me.

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

“Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…

Ever heard of the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism?

MILLIONS of One True New Testament Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates and Lukewarms.

42nd!

I may have shared this here before, but in light of the cowards all around us who turn a willfully blind eye to child sex abuse within their own ranks, I thought I’d share my husband’s guest post Of Questions and Cowards.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/04/of-questions-and-cowards.html

I’m so thankful for Matt. He gets it.

@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I actually knew Tim and his wife back in the day, when he was at Gordon Conwell. We had them over to dinner, even! I’m stunned at the direction his life has taken.

@ Adam Borsay:

BTW – please, please, please, do not offer to walk along side someone who is dealing with child abuse unless you are willing to love them through, and for, the long haul. You will only harm them more if you know not what you do. “You” will often have to repent for the unintentional pain you cause.

PS – the love you will need will not be like any you have given before.

Taylor Joy wrote:

What an immature, ignorant way of dealing with an area that you’re not familiar with at all. Wouldn’t you approach something like “the weather” or “music theory” or “paleontology” with a little bit more intelligence and humility than, “It must not be very common, since I don’t know anything about it.”

See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil: The Southern Baptist Convention and child sexual abuse within – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/06/three-wise-monkeys-photo-by-menage-moi.html#sthash.rg1DCPii.dpuf

Bridget wrote:

You know what they say – a picture is worth a thousand words. I sort of dislike seeing the T4G picture at the top of the post with the BACA guys at the bottom.

Yes, indeedy… https://www.flickr.com/photos/bearpark/4376859324/

I think my point was poorly put and I offended many…

In my church I would say 2-4%(that I know of) of the people have experienced some form of abuse in their life(often a long time ago). I fully recognize the problem as being pervasive in the whole of society. I am fully opposed to any sort of statement/mindset that either explicitly or implicitly causes any victim to feel that they had some part(due to their own sinfulness)to play in why they were abused.

When I say that I haven’t worked in a ministry that has had to “deal” with this issue, I meant that it hadn’t happened WITHIN our ministry. The policies that I have operated under and implemented personally are; 1) Background checks for anyone serving with minors, 2) No adult ever alone(one on one) with a child that is not their own. 3) At least 2 people working together with kids.

This does not mean that abuse doesn’t happen outside of the umbrella of our ministry, it just eliminates the chances of it happening as a part of the ministry.

Just this past year I found out a divorced woman with young children at home brought her new boyfriend into her home with his teenage son. While we have no knowledge of either him or his son having predatory history we sat down with her and dealt with the two issues that we were strongly opposed to: Living with her new boyfriend(biblically not acceptable) and bringing these strange men into her house. She did not like that we were “judging” her or her choices so she stopped coming to church. He is probably not a predator in any capacity, but I believe this sort of behavior and attitude can unnecessarily put children in harms way.

Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested. Not to down play the issues of child abuse, but, unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse. Someone else posted the SBC’s policies about addressing the issue and I think that is a fine way to address it. As I mentioned, no kids left alone with adults, don’t ignore potential areas of abuse. And after that I don’t know how much more there is to say.

Now, helping/counseling those who have suffered abuse is a whole different set of issues. For instance, if you were hosting a conference on biblical concepts of counseling I would expect that one of the main areas that would be addressed is counseling those who had suffered abuse due to its prevalent nature in our society.

If anyone felt I was downplaying the degree of abuse in society today I am very sorry. With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

Adam Borsay wrote:

I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

That is a start.

Adam Borsay wrote:

In my church I would say 2-4%(that I know of) of the people have experienced some form of abuse in their life(often a long time ago)

If those stats do not approach the figures for the incidence of abuse in our culture, where are the people? In somebody else’s church? Kind of doubtful. Why would they not be “in church?” Maybe back in the day they got marginalized and “run off” and somebody let them think that God did that to them and that there was something wrong with them? But for that matter, so what if there is something wrong with them, before or during or after the abuse? What is the church supposed to be? Just a place where folks who have it all together can get together and enjoy togetherness?

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
No.

Great post and very informative. It’s truly disturbing to see the silence on this issue on the part of those who not only ought to be saying something, but who have enough power to bring about real changes for the better if they choose to.

I don’t follow most of the calvinist types closely as I have moved away from the reformed tradition. I do look in on JMac’s website and blog pretty regularly only because I have a family member deeply enmeshed in following his teaching. In the past year he has had many posts detailing the errors of other groups and individuals (charismatics, continuationists, theistic evolutionists, and even John Piper) and laying in excruciating detail what his crowd believes is the right take on these issues. But advocating for the outcast, the victim, the poor, the neglected, etc. is just not there. Now I’m sure he and his followers would insist that they care about victims and the least among us if you asked them, but the fact is that we don’t see that message consistently, or in some cases, at all. Crickets mostly. I don’t know if they realize that silence also can speak volumes.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

Yes, I would, because around here measures like Adam described are pretty widespread as far as I know. And you did say nursery. But that is only part of the picture, of course. Younger youth group sleep over would be a different thing–have to give that a lot of thought.

The prevention of sexual abuse within the church (both child abuse and abuse of adults) requires a number of things:

1. Facilities that mitigate against abuse: Glass walls and/or uncovered windows in areas where children, youth, and counselees are. Elder abuse is more common than many think, and policies should cover this as well.

2. Policies and procedures that prevent children, youth and counselees ever being alone with one other person and out of sight of other people.

3. Explicit policies, posted, that require all questionable conduct to be reported and that those reporting will be protected. Unusual behavior by children that suggest sexual awareness inappropriate for their age should result in a visit with a trained child sexual abuse investigator; CASA (court appointed special advocates for children) usually have such an investigator available.

4. Explicit policies, posted, with telephone number(s), for reporting suspected or perceived abuse. If involving a child, Child Protective Services, CASA, or the police department (many have a “crimes against children” officer or officers). If a non-senior adult, the police. If a senior adult, the adult protective services office (usually a part of the same department as CPS). Multiple reports should be encouraged, as opposed to making one possibly inadequate report. DO NOT RELY ON THE VICTIM TO REPORT!

5. Background checks for all employees. Background checks for volunteers working with children and youth. Background checks for all security personnel, whether volunteer or paid.

6. No easy forgiveness. If a person has displayed inappropriate behavior in the past that is shown to be abusive, do not restore them to a position to abuse again, regardless of how heartfelt their confession and repentance seems to be. Once is more than enough for a life-time of constraint. Easy restoration puts the entire church entity at risk of losing insurance coverage, which also may mean bankruptcy for the church and losing its facilities.

7. If your church accepts registered sex offenders to attend, post a policy requiring them to identify themselves to the ushers or other designated and clearly visible party. Require them to be accompanied by a designated member or members of the church at all times when in the facility or at church events.

8. Make frequent (monthly?) announcements in services that if anyone is dealing with sexual abuse whether in or outside the church, to please contact designated persons for assistance (have both genders designated). That person should be trained in their responsibilities and limits and proper procedures to follow. Victims may be seeking counseling, and should be referred to a trained professional counselor. If possible, the church should help to defray the cost of such counseling for members and their children, particularly if the abuse occurred within the church community.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Serious question based on this post: are any TWW readers comfortable trusting their children to a SBC nursery?

It’s not just SBC, but anywhere you leave your child. The parent should make sure that ALL precautions have been taken. Ask to see the organizations policies. The policies should cover anyone working with children in any way, including every pastor, elder and staff – paid or not. No one should process themselves and at least two people (not staff, paid or not) should be part of the processing.

Adam Borsay wrote:

If anyone felt I was downplaying the degree of abuse in society today I am very sorry.

Words don’t cut it, buddy. Until you show real interest in what is REALLY going on in society, you come across as the average celebrity pastor with his head in the sand.

I don’t feel a need to apologize.

Abuse survivors DO NOT feel safe in church. PERIOD.

Until you make an effort to join with support mechanisms in your community you are just as bad and CJ and co.

I don’t care anymore about the feelings of people like you.

Isolation to the cries of the abused reveals holes in anyone’s theology, no matter how kind that person either thinks he is, or no matter how much his family adores him.

Until you make this a priority in your ministry, you run the risk of hurting many many people.

I know you are just reflecting the blatant ignorance of most churches, but I hope this post helps you to open your eyes to the fields that are white around you.

Adam Borsay wrote:

Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested.

Why? By stating this, you appear to be placing doctrine above individuals.

Adam Borsay wrote:

Not to down play the issues of child abuse, but, unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse. Someone else posted the SBC’s policies about addressing the issue and I think that is a fine way to address it. As I mentioned, no kids left alone with adults, don’t ignore potential areas of abuse. And after that I don’t know how much more there is to say.

There is much more to say about it. One in four women and one in ten men have experienced sexual abuse. Theologically speaking – what do they hear when the Protestant church teaches about God’s sovereignty, providence, omniscience? How does an abused four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen year-old, adults process what they hear? What do pastors say? Should they, or any teachers, be saying anything that makes God seem like He’s just fine with some people being abused or with some people sinning? I have heard pastors say the most awful things with not a thought about how that might sound to some people. I have had to turn to people and say that God is not like that at all. I don’t agree with the Pastor on that. I’ve seen pastors excuse their own sin and make statements such as, “Well, God has brought us to where we are,” as if God caused him (allowed him) to sin (not abuse) so that we can all be where we are together walking this out. I am not making this up. Maybe 99% of pastors/teachers shouldn’t be pastor/teachers.

Bridget wrote:

Maybe 99% of pastors/teachers shouldn’t be pastor/teachers.

Amen.

Adam Borsay wrote:

I think my point was poorly put and I offended many…

Feeling wrongfully judged, eh??? Feeling attacked for almost no provocation?? Feeling shamed for just saying something rather innocent, and completely accepted in your world? Bewildered about how to be accepted in a community where the rules seem to change instantly?

Welcome to my world. I revealed some discomfort from attending a conference that centered on protecting children from sexual abuse predators in the church. Granted, the place where I revealed it was the LAST place to do so – the purpose of the board where I posted is just to provide news about a particular denomination that is in the middle of the largest sexual abuse lawsuit involving multiple churches, it is dominated by suburban white people, it is dominated by people who love to debate current theological issues. I get that.

However, it revealed a great deal of isolation between actual survivors and people who say that they support survivors.

People made 3 hurtful assumptions about me:

1. I am in a super amount of denial of my need for help from Christian counselors, especially a certain celebrity one (Nope, I had been to 20+ years of Christian counseling, with no real help or understanding of my issues

2. That I had attended the conference just to get healed instantly.

3. That I had attended the conference to get free counseling.

None of the above was true.

Rather than engage in a real dialogue with those kind, normally compassionate people, I just threw in the towel.

Your culture, pastor Adam, encourages that behavior – for people to shoot first and ask questions later.

When you are ready, I would be interested to hear how it feels from your end to be judged from making a few comments from personal experience.

Adam Borsay wrote:

When I say that I haven’t worked in a ministry that has had to “deal” with this issue, I meant that it hadn’t happened WITHIN our ministry.

That you’re aware of.

Adam Borsay wrote:

The policies that I have operated under and implemented personally are; 1) Background checks for anyone serving with minors, 2) No adult ever alone(one on one) with a child that is not their own. 3) At least 2 people working together with kids.
This does not mean that abuse doesn’t happen outside of the umbrella of our ministry, it just eliminates the chances of it happening as a part of the ministry.

The DOJ statistics show that only 10% of offenders will ever encounter the criminal justice system. Current studies put this number at 4%. So, while absolutely necessary, background checks will not catch possibly 95% of offenders.

Adam Borsay wrote:

With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

It takes more than a “few simple protocols.” Even then, you can only claim to be reducing the risks, not eliminating abuse.

Serving in Japan,

I think I first ran across the term ‘microdenomination’ on a reformed blog somewhere. Presbyterians are sometimes referred to as the “split Ps” because of their history of what seems like a hundred offshoots. A microdenomination is recently split group of just a handful of churches, usually with at least one charismatic leader inspiring the creation of that particular bunch. At one time I would have described Mark Driscoll’s denomination as a micro, although it’s gotten big enough that I consider Mars Hill to have morphed into (almost) a legit denomination. Micros usually have some degree of cultlike characteristics, if not being full-blown cults. Another such is Doug Wilson’s federal vision denomination of the CREC. The biggest common denominator is that nobody else in the entire Christian world is doing it quite right, or caught the latest vision, or whatever.

hanks for the correction, NJ. Am somewhat relieved to hear of the Bayly’s parting from the PCA to pursue their own phallocratic cult, oops, I mean microdenomination.

LOL

😀

@ Nancy:

should be “we are talking..”

@ Nancy:

The standards that I set out work fairly well, and today, I would have more concerns about schools (public and otherwise) and extended family and neighbors, babbysitters, etc., than I would about a church that implemented the standards I set forth above.

I have been the parent of two children who were in church from two weeks old to graduation from high school. And I worked in children’s church B.K. and E.N. (before kids and empty nesting), where my favorite position was sitting on the floor playing with the littlest ones in the group.

And when my spouse was a youth minister, we hosted a retreat at our home and had another couple join us as chaperons, with females on one floor and males on another, with the adults in the hallway at the bottom and top of the stairs. Worked pretty well. Also had a overnight graduation party at our home where all of the kids were in the living room and two adults (parents taking shifts) awake at all times.

I mourn the dumbing down of the curriculum from what I had when growing up. I think the people putting curriculum together for Sunday School, at all ages (adult included), have decided to avoid anything that anyone would find objectionable, so there is no meat there, because someone would object to chewing. My teenage Sunday School was very scripture based, digging into the meaning of passages, looking at concordances, etc. We learned how to study the Bible, about controversies about inspiration, etc., and we were encouraged to make up our own minds about those things (priesthood of each and every believer, DYK). Most SBCers today would be apoplectic over THAT, being into indoctrination at all levels, even seminary.

All said, I believe in education for all ages in church, age appropriate, Bible-based, in depth.

BTW, in the church I grew up in, the Sunday evening “Training Union” had the dumbed down curriculum replaced by our leader, a lay person with a college minor in comparative religion, with a study of different faiths. One or two weeks looking at that, having read a lot of stuff about that weeks faith group, then meeting with a minister from that faith at their place of worship if possible, for a tour and question and answer period. Great learning experience.

So it can be a productive time for children and youth. But it takes effort. Kids and young people are worth the effort, because we are but one generation from having our faith disappear entirely or become the dominionist dream.

Bridget wrote:

Adam Borsay wrote:
Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested.
Why? By stating this, you appear to be placing doctrine above individuals.

Purity of Ideology, Comrades.

@ NJ:

TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly.

Thank God. I was starting to wonder if their presbytery was on crack because they hadn’t been forcibly expelled years ago.

@ Marie2:

Step 1 – Steal Underepants
Step 2 – ???
Step 3 – Profit

http://beta.southparkstudios.com/clips/151040/the-underpants-business

That’s how most churches operate

Step 1 – talk talk talk and talk some more, and complain about societal decay
Step 2 – ???
Step 3 – Profit

@ NJ: Driscoll’s Mars Hill is not a legit anything. It may be a illegitimate micro-denomination, or an illegitimate corporation masking as a church, but it is 100% scam.

Totally OT but David Barton finally said that women should not be allowed to vote.
http://tfninsider.org/2014/05/01/now-barton-suggests-allowing-women-to-vote-is-bad-for-families/

@ nmgirl:

No wonder Texas seems to have more that its fair share of cults.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

I’ve run into too many Jerks in my life, and they usually fall into a similar pattern

Yes!

And what most well-meaning pastors like Pastor Adam don’t realize, is that their personal lack of connection with actual abuse survivors (physical, spiritual, sexual, etc) creates pathetic behavior among their parishioners.

If anyone thinks I am being unjustly harsh on Pastor Adam, I am taking seriously a verse about not aspiring to be a teacher unless one is willing to undergo a thorough, potentially harsh judgment. Just obeyin’ mah Bible. Will find and properly cite that Scripture later.

Adam Borsay wrote:

…unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse.

Of course no one openly supports abuse because people do actually know better than that. But scriptural arguments are repeatedly made by those who cover up or belittle abuse, or who support an abuser over the abused. They lay verses in virtual layers until the person of Christ completely disappears from the place where the abused live. Why would they do that? What is wrong in the church that this occurs again and again without demur from pastors such as yourself? That you don’t even recognize it?

Adam Borsay wrote:

With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

Adequate protocols are not really as simple and few as you want to believe because pedophiles are clever and secretive, and they are attracted to church settings. But setting that aside, what do adequate protocols have to do with the rest of the church members’ lives? Members spend few hrs/wk inside the church, and it certainly is not where the majority of sin occurs, and I imagine that you preach about sin and damage that they cause each other throughout their lives.

Moreover, if your church is functioning as Christ did, ministering to the lost and not just the righteous, it will inevitably have a higher ratio of abused people than in larger society, not lower. The abused need Christ’s love very much, they are drawn to it when they see its reality. Jesus came for such as them.

You appear not to want to know about abuse, and either have established or discovered a church where it doesn’t appear in front of you. You have become so complacent about its non-appearance, that you announce at a blog specifically designed for protection and support of abused people that, yes, it is sad, but it doesn’t happen all that much and therefore there’s no reason to address it in a more comprehensive way.

So I ask you, a pastor with theological training, what parts of the Bible properly address this kind of approach to destructive issues let go rampant in the church?

Boy Scouts of America had its own abuse scandals similar to the Catholic Church’s. Youth Protection Training is mandatory for all adults involved in BSA including non-leader parents whose children are in the program. The training has to be retaken every two years. I’ve taken the training for Cub, Boy and Venture Scouts since 1997. It’s not perfect but it helps.

I don’t think it would be difficult to develop a comprehensive youth protection/abuse prevention program for use in churches. There are probably people right here in the TWW community who have the knowledge and expertise to create such a program! Churches must wake up to the necessity of dealing with the issue of abuse proactively. All adults in all churches should be trained, not just the leaders, teachers and nursery workers. The more trained eyes there are in the churches the harder it will be for the wolves to hide.

Marie2 wrote:

Hope it was good wine…Do you prefer red or white?

The answer to that one is “yes”. Depends on the occasion and what (if anything) we’re eating with it.

Tonight was the Co-Op’s own sparkling white – not Moet exactly (at a fifth of the price you wouldn’t expect it) but perfectly passable.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

Hell no.

Adam Borsay,

Have you checked out Jeff Crippen’s A Cry For Justice blog? Much of the recent stuff has been on domestic violence and divorce, but they deal with all sorts of abuse issues related to the Church.

Another good one is Under Much Grace (I think that’s Cindy Kunsman’s).

Adam Borsay wrote:

This is a deeply personal issue for many people and if my words set off an emotional response it is not the fault of the hearer that they heard that, but it is my fault for not being more wise in my phrasing/explanation. I thought I was clear, and since apparently I was not, I apologize.

Thank you for this apology, it means a great deal. I do hope that you can follow it up with concrete actions to mingle with the “hoi paloi”, the truly hurting, in your midst.

Maybe when Dee returns from her retreat, she and Deb can brainstorm more ideas for exposure OUTSIDE the church to happen.

Please face the reality, no matter how kind a pastor is, no matter how welcoming a church, abuse survivors will NOT initiate contact with you until they see real action, and see people venturing outside their comfort zone.

Maybe there are ideas at netgrace.org?

Thank you for your kind reply. I hope you can continue the conversation here, and brainstorm more ideas to connect with the real folks.

Uppity Bimbo wrote:

Thank God for BACA! A far greater example of masculinity than Driscoll, Mahaney, Piper etc.

I thought too that BACA’s manifesto was magnificent! It reminded me by way of loose analogy the scene in Ridley Scott’s film Kingdom of Heaven where Balian, son of Godfrey, knights the defenders of Jerusalem. Need I point to which photo-op at the beginning of Dee’s article stands in as the cowardice and perfidy of the Arch Bishop?

Adam Borsay wrote:

With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

Actually, I largely agree with that one. When it comes to the abuse of children, an ounce of prevention is – surely – worth ten tons of cure. I note, and concur with, Adam’s use of the word “virtually” – it’s next door to impossible to completely eliminate abuse. But simply, for instance, requiring that no adult leader ever be alone with a child (or vulnerable adult) is a huge step in the right direction. It takes more protocols than just that, of course, but it drastically reduces the odds favouring an abuser. Bearing in mind that predators are invariably repeat offenders, he (more rarely, but sometimes, she) must organise a conspiracy to get around it.

Simply having protocols, and taking them seriously, is another heavy blow against the predator community (and yes, research indicates that such a thing exists). It shines a light into just those dark places in which predators like to hide. By educating the passive majority, it eats into the army of complicit “yes-men” who indirectly shelter predators by refusing to believe that such things happen around here.

These are just two, and TWW readers will be able to add numerous more – for instance, what to do in the event of a complaint. It is perfectly possible to allow innocent leaders a fair hearing without wantonly or complacently enabling or excusing predators. There are, in my personal experience, no shortage of local congregations here in Blighty (and presumably elsewhere) that have adopted these and others because they take the problem seriously.

Another protocol exists at a higher level, and TWW itself plays a part in upholding it. That is, the calling out of popular and influential organisations who have no robust policies in place to stymie predators, other than empty and vague statements condemning child abuse. This is a difficult and slow process, of course, because a lot of people are taken in by these groups and they exist in a toxic culture. They really believe, for instance, that God cares more about their public relations than about their truthfulness, and that the “gospel” is better served by covering up and perpetuating abuse than by repenting of it.

ok….can we step back from the polemics against adam? I don’t think he met ill will, I certainly didn’t get that impression at least. As a penn state grad, I can attest to how easy it is to initially underestimate the severity of children’s sex abuse. Jerry sandusky, despite what people might say in hindsight, was the most likeable, popular guy in state college, and of course a complete deviant because of his wolf in sheeps clothing behavior. Prior to this happening and me reading about it, I would have maybe tended to post something like adam. That being said, on the other side of that, it’s pretty fair to assume it’s happening in most every church, given the fact that something like 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 kids are abused. Time to pull the head ouf the collective sands (and yes, mohler and crew are too smart to not realize this…..I’ve effectively written them off. Either they’re so lacking in judgement or so heartless, either way they shouldn’t be sheperding people), starting with giving people the benefit of the doubt when they come with a humble post like Adams.

@ andrew:

Adam wasn’t offended, and I was not polemic (if that is directed at me). What I shared is reality and the questions I asked are not rhetorical. They are asked with the hope of being taken seriously, especially concerning theology and treatment of outcasts in the Church.

NJ wrote:

(You should have seen the times Tim in particular compared himself and David to men like the Old Testament prophets calling Israel to repentance.)

Sounds like the guy was very full of himself.

Adam Borsay wrote:

A few thoughts…

I understand the initial reaction to a church leader “sitting” on the side of the accused…But what if the accused is innocent, or, you are reasonably sure they are innocent? Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare. Would not automatically assuming the accuser to be completely right before all the evidence is accounted for just as damaging as automatically assuming the accused is guilty? Not that this question answers whose “side” one should sit on, but just a general thought…

As far as what topics are addressed at a conference…..What percentage of protestant churches deal with sexual abuse issues(of minors or otherwise). Without any actual numbers, I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

As a pastor and someone in ministry for a number of years that cover a number of denominations and parachurch organizations I have never once run across this issue in any form. But what I do deal with on a regular basis is the questions about homosexuality and gender issues(regardless of onces position). And if I was signing up for a conference on the Bible and Sexuality I wouldn’t even consider abuse as warranting a “session”. Not to downplay its tragic destructiveness, but, that in my experience it has been completely non-existent.

Oh, who is blinder than a man who will not see.
Shame on you!! Shame!! Open your eyes. It is all around you, whilst you blithely deny it from the rooftops!

@ Eagle:

Thank you, Eagle, for saying that. That has been my experience and those are my conclusions, but sometimes I think I have been too close to it to be objective. It does me good to think that there are others who think that also. This blog has been so good for me in that respect. Thanks again.

@ NJ:

My husband recently heard about the particularization of another Clearnote church in which some delegates from the CREC showed up for that service.

Well that ought to be enough to discredit Doug Wilson and his people once and for all.

Marie2 wrote:

But seriously, “convictional kindness”????
Hey Josh, are you still there?? Have you experienced convictional kindness before??? What the heck is that????

Is the thread on Dumb Christianese/Churchy words still active?

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I suspect that the powers that be do not realize how branding works. They are spending a lot of energy building their gospelly brand, while ignoring actions that the majority of humanity finds repulsive. I would compare this to Walmart. They have spent a lot of money on their “every day low prices” brand, but the first thing that most people think of is long lines, unfair worker conditions, and a lousy shopping experience. I believe the SBC is experiencing something similar.

@ dee:

Right on, Dee. I am at a loss as to how someone could still write what Adam has written and still hold the opinion on sexual abuse that he does, especially with all of the information before us.

Thanks for writing the post.

(off topic)
Barton: Not Allowing Women To Vote Was Designed ‘To Keep The Family Together’ – See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/barton-not-allowing-women-vote-was-designed-keep-family-together#sthash.WUzsAYgm.dpuf
😯

@ Adam Borsay:
James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Luke 14, The Parable of the Banquet
…22″And the slave said, ‘Master, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ 23″And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled. 24’For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.'”

Hester wrote:

Notice Barton conveniently omits a discussion of whether women should continue to have the right to vote. He’s (AFAIK) right that a husband and wife were legally considered one person historically (that one person being the husband) and that husbands were considered the heads of house, but if this arrangement = strong families, and we want to make families strong again, doesn’t it logically follow that we should reinstate the previous arrangement?

Methinks he wants to make the argument without actually making the argument. He needs plausible deniability and all that, right?

And with that said, I wish I could ignore David Barton. Unfortunately, too many of my ultra-right-wing acquaintances (hmm, maybe I need new friends) take him seriously, so it’s important to know what sort of nonsense he’s spewing at the moment. :-\

@ Adam Borsay:
The only other thing I can think of is that 99% of pastors seem to not be interested in child sexual abuse is that people think that the abuse victims fall only into 2 categories:

1. Those who were abused as children in the last year…..Well this doesn’t happen at our church, so let’s not worry about it……We’ve done enough to prevent it, so let’s move on to pornography, homosexuality, etc.

2. Those who were abused very long ago – again, not my problem. This happened too long ago, the past is past.

There still a few more categories out there….

3. Those who were abused as children a while ago, like 5-10 years ago, but might not be acknowledging the full extent of what happened to them, and don’t have any close people that they can trust to process what happened, and get started on a healing journey.

4. Those who were abused a fairly long time ago, and struggle to find peace about it.

5. Those whose abuse was pre-verbal, meaning it happened before the child could speak, so the memories are spotty, and the expertise is almost non-existent. For years, people thought that memory only mattered when a child could express things with words. It will take a while for culture to catch up with what is common knowledge among survivor circles.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
“Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…
Ever heard of the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism?
MILLIONS of One True New Testament Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates and Lukewarms.

A man is washed up on a deserted isle, 30 years later he is rescued. he has created a full size replica of the town he lived in before being shipwrecked. his rescuers are stunned , one asks why there are two church buildings and he replies “that’s the one I don’t go to”.

@ Josh:

Funny thing is I am very right wing and socially conservative, and I don’t always unquestioningly accept every tid bit from right-wing bashing sites, but I have no reason to doubt Right Wing Watch on this one.

Maybe in the days to come more sites will pick that story up.

Hmm…to the question of child sex abuse within churches.

Based on my own experience, the bulk of child sex abuse that happens within churches doesn’t actually happen with the to four walls of the building. Most predators are smarter than that. I can almost guarantee that ANY church in America has at any given moment t least one (probably more) child within their congregation who is actively being sexually abused.

I my own case, the first instance of sexual abuse happened when I was 3 1/2 years old. As has been mentioned by others, a 2 or 3 years old has no framework to even articulate what has happened. They just know that it should not have. The, when I was 7, a different perp started and that went on for 5 years.

Here’s the thing. I grew up in church. My father was a deacon and attended seminary. My mom was a Sunday school teacher and pianist. My grandfather was also a deacon and my uncle was a pastor. And a member of my family (none of the above mentioned) began molesting me.

Here’s how my child’s mind ‘handled’ this.
* First, because the abuser assured me that if I ever told, I would be in big trouble, I was terrified that someone would find out.
* The church’s teaching on the sin’s of sex outside of marriage and how this was one of those really big ones destroyed my ability to believe that God loved me. I fully expected to be judged and tormented by an angry God for what ‘I had done’
* Because of the above, why on earth would I feel safe telling anyone? The teaching I heard coupled with the threats of the abuser left me absolutely sure that if I ever told, I would be soooo punished.

I spent a great deal of my childhood terrified that my horrible secret would be found out and then I would have no one who would love me any more because I had committed one of the worst possible sins. I was 9. Although from a very early age, I loved Jesus, because of all of these things, I grew to be afraid of God’s wrath. I believed I fully deserved it. In recent years, as I have finally found the strength and courage to speak about what was done to me, I have encountered those who insist that what happened to me was pre-ordained by God. Wrestling with this concept bring me to the brink of walking away from the God that was abusive. If I had not been able, through my relationship with Him, to realize that this portrayal of him was not accurate, I would have walked away from my faith – which probably would have been the end of me….

I remember, after a rough week of working on my healing, I came to God and asked him to show me if there was anything within what happened that I needed to take responsibility for. It is risky to sure His reply, but I think it is so important in understanding victims of abuse (He does).

“Daughter, it was not your fault that you were in the situation you were in. You did not ask for it and you did not pursue it.It came to you. It is not your fault that you didn’t have the tools, the understanding, the wisdom to comprehend what was going on and makes choices from that. All you did was survive. Thank you for surviving.”

As other have said, the protocols you have in place are a good start. But to believe that this will magically make child sex abuse not show up in your church is, i think, naive.

andrew wrote:

ok….can we step back from the polemics against adam? I don’t think he met ill will, I certainly didn’t get that impression at least. As a penn state grad, I can attest to how easy it is to initially underestimate the severity of children’s sex abuse. Jerry sandusky, despite what people might say in hindsight,

If you meant me, yes, I know he had no ill-will, but he’s a church leader who doesn’t know what’s up and he commented at a blog who supports the abused.

You learned after Sandusky/Paterno, but he heard about that too, and since then, there’s been a rash of news stories on sex abuse in the church.

There are certainly a number of his congregants who’ve been abused and still suffer effects, which includes shame and silence.

As you said, “time to pull the head out of the collective sands”. And that means Adam too, who responded openly to the criticism.

I’m not sure why you felt the need to defend him.

@ Jeannette Altes:
How I wish someone could have told you that so much earlier – it was not/never was/never could have been your fault. I am also glad you survived 🙂 Helps me push on for those who have not yet told.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

“Daughter, it was not your fault that you were in the situation you were in. You did not ask for it and you did not pursue it.It came to you. It is not your fault that you didn’t have the tools, the understanding, the wisdom to comprehend what was going on and makes choices from that. All you did was survive. Thank you for surviving.”

Oh, that’s wonderful. Surviving was a 24hr/dy job and certainly a long series of courageous acts on your part. “Thank you for surviving.” Exactly right.

@ Josh:

1. It makes me nuts when people “point things out” about women’s right to vote. They list a million and one reasons why the U.S. has gone to the dogs since women’s suffrage, but then claim they’re not saying we should disenfranchise women. At which point I ask the same question I did above, if it’s such a big problem, why don’t you want to do anything about it? And/or why are you even bringing this up? Also it’s often based on terrible gender stereotypes – i.e., women want to be protected and provided for, so they tend to vote for candidates who support extensive welfare programs.

2. Yeah, despite the fact that I’m really into history, I don’t usually follow Barton feuds – Throckmorton in particular has a very loud and persistent critic in his comments who gets under my skin – because they usually devolve into political fights, with all the right-wingers lined up on one side and the left-wingers on the other, which is exactly the wrong thing to do. Pointing out bad history should be a bipartisan effort. Basically, anything not unique to Barton – i.e., things he gets right (which is admittedly some stuff) – you can find repeated by reputable historians, so why read him in the first place? You can repeat the same facts with a different citation, without the s***storm or the stigma.

Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”

This is among the seven woes of the scribes and Pharisees. Matters haven’t changed much since the time of Jesus. And we encounter the same white washed walls we encountered 2000 years ago. They don’t care until they are scared which translates as “until it impinges into their ministry because of the bad press.” And then when they express a care, it is hard to trust them. I am referring to those lined up in that politburo picture. For shame! I pray they genuinely repent and go to that mourners bench. Anointed, they are not!

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Simply having protocols, and taking them seriously, is another heavy blow against the predator community (and yes, research indicates that such a thing exists).

I’ve no doubt that such a community exists. NAMBLA, anyone? (Ugh, what a disgusting group.)

burnrnorton wrote:

And considering that one in four women will be victims of sexual assault, it beggars belief that you haven’t encountered this problem before.

Maybe nobody who has been abused/assaulted has felt comfortable talking to him about it, hence he’s never encountered it.

@ Adam Borsay:

I too, along with others accept your apology for the offense. Thank you. Going along with what I said before I think it is good that you come here, and even though it seems to still be offensive, even that is good because it has been bringing out even more education by commenters for you and new readers.
I’ve been pondering as to just why though even after your apology I/we still feel disregarded by you. I believe I have it figured out. I apologize ahead of time if I offend you.
Here goes: I cannot stand it when the comp/reformed crowd uses the phrase “the Bible clearly states or it’s biblically clear or the Bible is clear” or whatever like that when we have interpretive disagreements. But I sure feel like using that phrase on you right now because:
It should be ABUNDTLY CLEAR to you by now that there are experts here that can help you make sure that you can do everything knowingly possible regarding this extremely important issue in your church and yet you still try to convince us that you comply. Unless you are also an auto mechanic or a doctors I would like to see how far you get arguing with your car and health providers in the same manner that you are arguing with child abuse experts.
I suggest that a good place to start would be to inform your congregation that you do not know as much as you thought you knew and are learning some valuable information on thewartburgwatch.com. As you know, sometimes God starts setting things up for us for help that we need in the future. Maybe that is why you are reading here now.
So, for your own sake and possible future victims you may run into in your church, please do not let us scare you away.

Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

I’ve no doubt that such a community exists. NAMBLA, anyone? (Ugh, what a disgusting group.)

Tried to find the end scene of “South Park: Cartman Joins NAMBLA” on YouTube, but the only bootleg of it I could find didn’t have a soundtrack. Goes like this:

The cops are taking the NAMBLAns away, and one of them starts an impassioned speech about True Love and Don’t Judge We Were Born This Way etc etc etc.

After every sentence, Kyle or Stan breaks in with “DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

Rights and Sexual Orientation and True Love and Don’t Judge bla bla bla…

“DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

Psychobabble Intolerance Psychobabble Pity Me bla bla bla…

“DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

Goes on like this for five or six go-rounds.

Mark wrote:

… though I understand a Neo reformed pastor has recently termed Esther a harlot.

Ah, yes, indeed he has. Bless ‘im.

My new post “Denying and Enabling Child Sex Abuse” about a former Bellevue Baptist, Idlewild Baptist, and Second Baptist Houston music minister that the SBC still uses to lead worship at national conferences.
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/05/denying-and-enabling-child-sex-abuse.html?m=1

I was watching video attached to Amy Smith’s blog. I didn’t realize SNAP was protesting in front of churches. When these protests take place is there any reaction from the church members of the church being protested? I was informed by a friend who attends one of my former churches that there was a protest at this church and the pastor informed the members on Facebook not to speak to the protestors. Have any SBC pastors gotten involved in SNAP, or are they mostly circling the wagons? Hope there is some clergy support out there. These protests are a good thing.

Eagle wrote:

Many evangelcials in my mind have permemantly forfeitted the right to speak about pornograghy, homosexuality, gay marriage, sex out side of marriage, etc… when they consistently and constantly turn a blind eye to child sex abuse.
It’s a joke!! The hypocrisy is sickening and laughable.

I would also add that they don’t support people who have stayed virgins well into their 30s or older.

(Some like Mohler, actually insult folks like me who never married and never had sex.
But then they turn around in their blogs and conferences and complain about the high rate of promiscuity and other sexual sin among Christians (and Non Christians)??)

An Attorney wrote:

And men having the vote resulted in the 3/5 rule in the Constitution, Secession by the southern states, who then started the unCivil War, Jim Crow laws, the rape and destruction of Native American tribes,

This kind of reminds me of the gender complementarian debate. Some gender comps argue women should not be preachers or make big decisions in a marriage because women are supposedly more easily deceived.

But I have seen numerous males become deceived by religious teachings, from within and with out the Christian faith, like David Koresh, Jim Jones, and the Benny Hinns of the tele evangelist world.

Not only did these guys have male followers who ate up their false teaching, but there were males teaching the stuff.

Being a male does not make a person immune from being deceived (or being deceptive), so I don’t see the “being more easily deceived on basis of gender” as being a reason to bar women from ministry or making decisions in a marriage.

@ Muff Potter:

I remember reading or listening to Barton a few years ago, and he seemed okay. In the last two or three years, though, my views on him have changed.

@ Deb:
Thank you.

@ Deb:

Yes, Jeannette!! Thank you so much for sharing your painful experience, you rock!!

Patti wrote:

I suggest that a good place to start would be to inform your congregation that you do not know as much as you thought you knew and are learning some valuable information on thewartburgwatch.com. As you know, sometimes God starts setting things up for us for help that we need in the future. Maybe that is why you are reading here now.
So, for your own sake and possible future victims you may run into in your church, please do not let us scare you away.

Amen.

So far I see my main interpretation and source of irritation from my end when I hear pastors say that they don’t have to deal with sexual abuse in their church, because there are not survivors there, it does not happen in their church, it does not happen in the immediate community, it will not ever happen due to super sound practices, etc etc.

1. Is the pastor being self-centered, with activities that are “fun”, and avoiding the difficult chores/people? My irritation comes from a wonderful, Bible-believing pastor in college – he was my small group leader – he adamantly said that to be a pastor, someone should not over schedule. People always crop up unexpectantly with needs. I need to drastically cut back on my schedule due to multiple mental and physical issues stemming from my childhood. When a pastor says he does not have time for this, I want to say, “Really? No time? How is that being a Godly example??” No time for challenging outreach and study??? Hmmmmm….What could someone give up to super charge and energize their church?

2. Is the pastor humble enough to take outside input, and be open to a self-perception change? A major part of my recovery has been to take in input that conflicts with my view of the world. I admit my self-perception has become quite warped, due to the abuse. It would take a great deal of humility for a pastor to admit his ignorance on the issue to his congregation, but the potential rewards are tremendous.

3. Does the pastor have unhealed hurt that comes up, and is bothersome to hum, hurting his productivity, when this issue comes up? We have a saying in my little support group, “If you spot it you got it” – I find this issue incredibly disturbing, it brings up enormous waves of hurt to watch pastors protest, over and over, that this is not an important issue to them and their congregation. WHY???? What unhealed hurt exists in these pastor’s hearts that needs to come out into the light, so they can have the energy for this important group of people??

When I first started recovery, hearing peoples’ stories would me reeling. I am much more at peace with my pain, and I don’t feel the instant need to fix someone, and get the person to just shut up, when I hear them speak.

Challenge for any pastor out there -listen to at least one survivor story a week, until the need to offer the person a Kleenex and ask them to be healed instantly subsides.

😯
Texas judge lightly sentences admitted rapist, says 14-year-old he assaulted not ‘the victim she claimed to be’

Texas judge Jeanine Howard sentenced 20-year-old Sir Young to a 5-year probation after he admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl in a high school music room.
In her decision, Howard implied the girl had been sexually promiscuous. Young had faced a maximum sentence of 20 years in jail.

Hester wrote:

Pointing out bad history should be a bipartisan effort.

In Barton’s situation this is absolutely the case. For example, uber conservative Justin Taylor has lamented his blatant lying and calling it history. Frankly, I don’t believe anyone with a high school education would make it through one chapter of Barton.

@ Daisy:
Only in Texas…Wow!

The following quote was nice to hear, though….On a more positive note, I hope that this case gets a great deal of attention, and reminds people of the reality and pervasiveness of rape:
“Prosecutors have filed a motion seeking the terms of Young’s probation be reconsidered.”

How much of seemingly strange behavior by churches have to do with concerns about lawsuits and the advice they receive from insurance companies. I know this is an awful thing to think but churches are businesses. For example is there is a protest outside a church, an insurance company has developed guidelines and those guidelines recommend that church members not talk to the protesters. So if SNAP protested outside my church the leadership of my church would recommend I ignore the protesters.

http://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/index.cfm/resources/ministry-safety/article/handling-protests-at-church/

I am an old fashioned baptist who would probably be banned from a church because I would talk to the protesters and ask the protesters “what’s up? ” I am just nice. I would give protesters water on a hot day.

When accused pedophiles are massively supported by church people and celebrity preachers send messages of support to a troubled ministry over allegations of child sexual abuse, this pressures hidden victims and their families not to talk. But could much of this be on advice of lawyers and insurance companies? This is a terrible thought.

Marie2 wrote:

Episodes are freely available….I will probably watch this later today, and find out the time ticks where those quotes come up.

Should be at or near the end of the episode. Probably the final scene.

@ Beakerj:

Beakerj – thank you. 🙂

@ Patrice:
Patrice, thank you. I think this is what a lot of people don’t really understand. It takes a ton of strength and courage just to survive! That is not even talking about the enormous effort of fighting through fear and threatening voices in our heads just to make those first few timid, tenuous squeaks of telling our story – letting the pain out.

I understand that for most people, hearing about these kinds of stories is difficult…uncomfortable. For some, I think it is because this act against children is so horrific, they do not even want to contemplate that someone they know might do this. I think the idea scares some that they can’t spot these predators by just looking. But if they could be spotted just by how they look, then they would never be able to get away with it.

For others, I think it touches on something within their own past that they don’t want to look at, so they pretend it is removed from their sphere.

For others, it is just plain ignorance – they have been lucky enough to never have had to look this demon in the face, and thus think it isn’t in their vicinity.

But the truth is, as others here have mentioned, 1 in 4 little girls will be sexually abused. 1 in 4. That means that in any given church in this country, it would be a statistical improbability that none of the children in the church were being abused.

This problem of child sex abuse within the protestant church is a huge issue that very few want to look at. It is a more deeply entrenched and widespread problem than it ever was in the Catholic Church. I think part of the reason for this is that so many protestant churches teach some form of female submission – even ones that are not complementarian/patriarchal. It is a societal thing.

There is also this. As a child, there are not words to describe what it can do to you mentally/emotionally when someone that you trust – that you are supposed to trust – that it is natural for you to trust – violates that trust in the most personal, intimate invasive way possible. There is no ‘recovery’ from that. The impact from that will stay with you through your whole life. You can heal the wounds, but the scars will remain and still be tender at times. What is taken from you cannot not be restored. You cannot give a child back their innocence. You cannot give them back their childhood. At the very least, you should be able to give them back some dignity and peace by treating them with respect.

And I want to be very clear on this point: When a pastor of a self-confessed child molester (so it is not a case of him possibly being falsely accused, which is far more rare than they’re like you to believe)…when a pastor does this and the child that was violated sees her pastor take the side of her abuser, the clear messages this sends can seal her heart against God…against churches…it tells her that God is on the side of the one who hurt her. Yeah. That is not okay.

Okay – I’ll stop now.

Daisy wrote:

He no longer wants to appeal to hipster 20 somethings but to 30 year old preachers who want a preacher mentor.

Run! Run 30 year old preachers! Run if you want to represent Christ to this generation. Don’t let Driscoll get his hooks in you. He doesn’t know how to minister to over half the body of Christ (the womenfolk). He not only can’t minister to them, he can’t even see them straight because of his porno vision and perverted view of women. Okay, because of his perverted view of women he can’t minister to the masculine half either.

Run Preachers! You will find no help in Driscoll. Only sorrow upon sorrow. Just ask all the people who have been thrown under the bus.

Marie2 wrote:

A whole bunch of dweeb-y smarty pants will descend into your fair city in July of 2015.

How did you know I was Mensa 🙁

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

How did you know I was Mensa

The clue is in the “Dr”, and the specialism in proctology!

😉

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

Back in 1953 I picked the winner, “Dark Star” who paid something like 20:1 I think. I knew right then that I had to walk away from it all or it would grab me. The excitement. The availability. The money. Did I mention the excitement? In envy you guys who can just enjoy and walk away. I had to stay away, that is how exciting it was for me–winning I mean.

MENSA? Why did I not think of that? My sister is “one of them.” Arrgghhh. It is a sibling thing. You think it is sometimes hard being a smarty-pants? You should try being a sibling of such. But I am a big girl now and I can handle this. It says right here. Is there such a thing as a variant of PTSD from being a sibling of “one of them?”

Got to go. The eight-year old is getting baptized this morning, and I have invited the whole extended clan out to Red Lobster for lunch. Big Day!

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Although I hope you can all appreciate that league fitba’ is a sore subject for me at the moment 🙁 🙁 I will add some more serious comments when I get back from the gym.

And in other news, this is a nice update (or was this covered already?) to GRACE’s investigation about sexual improprieties at Bob Jones U. Things had come to an unexpected halt, then they started up again, and it looks like more people have bravely come forward in the interim. Whoo-HOO!!

http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Update-April-2014.pdf

Since that time, GRACE has picked up where it had left off at the end of January and has spent the past month reviewing relevant documents recently provided by Bob Jones University and conducting final interviews. Additionally, the team has also spent time reviewing a few additional complaints received in the past month. Due to the influx of new information and the inherent scheduling challenges created by the halted process, GRACE should be able to finalize the data collection phase of this independent investigation by the end of April.

@ dee:

Awesome article!! My mid-90’s GRE score (Which I thought I had totally bombed) got me into MENSA. My husband is already a member, and cajoled me into joining. I have to say that it’s loads of fun. Pretty much a bunch of people telling dirty jokes but with bigger words. 🙂

Nancy wrote:

Is there such a thing as a variant of PTSD from being a sibling of “one of them?”

Yes, I do believe that. Seriously. I grew up the younger sibling of a genius musician whose life story would make that Amadeus (1984) movie about Mozart being a self-centered narcissistic weirdo look like a simple Peter Pan biopic in comparison. Yes. I hear you.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086879/?ref_=nv_sr_1

@ dee:

That’s a good view. It’s also like the Prosperity Preachers on TV who say if you send them $100 that God will send that person $1,000.

I’ve wondered if they really believe God will support people financially they ask for “seed offerings.” Why don’t they offer to mail so many TV viewers $100 and expect God to reward them with $1,000 for every $100.

I think it’s because they don’t really believe what they preach about seed giving, tithing, first fruit offerings, etc.

@ Daisy:

Nice article!! Props to you, Ms. Daisy, you incredible news-hound!

I LOVE this quote:

“Using the social media site Tumblr, we uploaded photos giving voice to student reactions to laws and policies that take silence as consent,” Rory Gerberg, a Harvard graduate student who is a founder of a coalition of students to address the university’s sexual assault policy, said in an email. “The definition of consent is a core challenge in addressing campus sexual assault and the larger culture of sexism and gender-based violence that allow it to occur.”

@ Bridget:
HAHAHAHA.

Corrections welcome:

Perv: We are human. Most of us did not choose to be attracted to young boys. We were born that way. We can’t help the way we are. And if you all can’t understand that, well, then, I guess you will just have to put us away.

Kyle or Stan: Dude. You had sex. with CHILDREN.

Kyle or Stan: You know, we believe in equality for everybody, and tolerance and
all that gay stuff, but dude F you… Seriously

@ Patrice:
Cool. Hahaha. I was actually thrilled to read your post that you like Jeannette’s comments, in that people who are not survivors can sometimes get their dander up a tad too quickly when I say that I truly appreciate the words of other survivors.

Yes I believe we can all help each other, of COURSE, regardless of past experience.

But there is something super especially healing that a survivors’ words can provide for me, no insult intended to non-survivors. 🙂

Man, I love you guys….
After spending 30 years battling child abuse the best I can in both the schools and working with the legal system, people just do not think that sexual abuse can happen in the church, even in 2014. People just do not ” get it.” Especially the ” Protestant” church….
This might be the best set of comments ever….

Patrice wrote:

@ Jeannette Altes:
I always appreciate your comments because they are clear and make the necessary points.

Thank you.

Yep. There’s also this thing about what we first learn. The deepest lessons are laid in childhood because they are first and learned when vulnerable: how the world is structured (the chaos/order quotient, for eg), what love is/does, what/whom we can/can’t trust, how relationships work, our own nature, value and agency.
A lot more will be learned as one goes through life, but those first lessons are the ones to which all subsequent lessons are compared. This is true for everyone, for good and bad.

So when those first lessons are gouges and slashes across the mind/heart, dis-ability results. When the world is first taught as chaotic and distressful, the first relationships as mean and cold, and that the child is of little/no value, dis-ability results. In order to thrive, humans need to know that they are loved and of value and that the world has some amount of order and goodness.

Yes. This is so true. Even now, in my 50s, I still struggle with these things, even though I have learned they were wrong. They linger and whisper in my ear, trying to undermine the strength I have gained. It can be exhausting just fighting to rise to a level that others would term ‘normal.’

It can be very difficult to articulate to someone why knowing we are of value to God is so important. A friend of mine and I kind of got wires crossed on this at one point because she couldn’t understand why it was so important to me. Finally, one day, she looked at me and said, “I get it. You don’t have that foundation of knowing that your parents love you and will always be there for you. You don’t have that as a given with them, and therefore, you don’t have it as a given with God.” Yes!

I have struggled to understand what love really is. One of the effects of the childhood I had, especially with it being couched in the framework of religion, is that I do not know what to expect from ‘love.’ The concept of “God loves me” is fine in theory, but what does it mean in practice? The twisted concept of love that I grew up with suggests that love is unpredictable, capricious, conditional and might put you through horrendously difficult situations to build your ‘inner character’ and that love will not help you clean your own messes. If you screw up, you have to fix it yourself. So….that has made it terribly difficult for me to learn to trust God…..but I am learning.

For adults who have never divulged their childhood abuse, those first lessons will still bleed through everything. Those who have faced/reconciled their childhood have criss-crossed scars that frequently get in the way but at least their vitality is no longer being drained away.

Yes – before I finally reached the point that I could (had) to look at the abuse and own that it was real, the pain and fear and anger that were buried bled through into everything. I spent a good deal of my life in a state of constant disconnectedness. I still fight that some. Just last night, I went to do my laundry and the landlord had raised the price on the washers from $1.00 to $1.50. I understand the mechanisms involved in what happened, but I still seem helpless to stop them. It sent me into a state of fear that I fought against the rest of the evening. Unexpected change can do that….but really, and I’ve mentioned this before (I think), fear has been a constant companion my whole life. Fear of the dark. Fear of the unknown. I hadn’t realized how much it was there until recently. Every time I open the door to go out of my apartment, there is a twinge of fear. Every time I get out of my car. Every time I have to go to do laundry. It is irrational. It is not based on current or recent experience. It is visceral. And I have so internalized it from little that I didn’t even recognize that it wasn’t ‘normal’ until just recently. It is getting better in bits and pieces.

One of the best ways people can help an abused person is to give them respect for having gotten through and for still standing upright and moving along. We all need to be seen/known, and it’s esp important for those who’ve been ignored and trashed.
Yet we often keep that from them, as if simple recognition encourages them to remain victims. But that’s illogical because the recognition is of survival, not victimhood. I suspect that those who conflate the two are actually refusing to come to terms with the reality of how awful we can be to each other.
As Hannah Arendt wrote: “Normal men don’t know that everything is possible, refuse to believe their eyes and ears in the face of the monstrous.”

YES!!! This is so good. Thank you. To recognize that someone survived and applaud that – give that respect and dignity. One of the first things every therapist and counselor I’ve seen (I saw several as it took a bit to find the right fit) says is, “You are a walking miracle.” My last therapist went on to say, “the fact that you endured what you did as a child and still graduated from high school, let alone went on to college, is remarkable and rare.” I’m not sure how rare it is, hearing that stories of others here. Although maybe the other survivors here are all of that rare breed. 😉

But I think it requires a willingness to really think about what the survivor is telling you and trying to imagine what your life would be like if you walked through what they walked through…to be able to begin to comprehend what it means that they actually survived.

@ Jeannette Altes:
Looking forward to your comment, lol. I love that I get to hear other survivors talk via this anonymous resource. Thank you Deebs for providing it. 🙂

And PS I am sorry if the word recovery is offensive to some. I first thought I needed help when I realized I had grown up in an alcoholic home. The support group I went to talked about recovery a whole lot, and the phrase kind of stuck.

I did have a stump the counselor moment when I asked one of my well-meaning, super kind Christian counselors if I could ever be completely healed of my childhood. She deferred that question to “next time”, which meant indefinitely. 🙂 Very tough issues to talk about.

Daisy wrote:

I’ve wondered if they really believe God will support people financially they ask for “seed offerings.” Why don’t they offer to mail so many TV viewers $100 and expect God to reward them with $1,000 for every $100.

Because The Money Must Flow only from the suckers in the pews to the ManaGawd.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

My last therapist went on to say, “the fact that you endured what you did as a child and still graduated from high school, let alone went on to college, is remarkable and rare.” I’m not sure how rare it is, hearing that stories of others here. Although maybe the other survivors here are all of that rare breed.
But I think it requires a willingness to really think about what the survivor is telling you and trying to imagine what your life would be like if you walked through what they walked through…to be able to begin to comprehend what it means that they actually survived.

Very insightful comments. Ty for being here to break some stereotypes…. 🙂

@ Nancy:
I can certainly understand that! It is an exciting sport. My favorite part, though, is that it is something I can still afford to take the family too. Have you priced even a baseball game recently?

@ An Attorney:

Thank you! All of this stuff makes me embarrassed to call myself a a Southern Baptist. I don’t know enough at what is happening at Bob Jones, a separatist IFB institution, but they appear to be behaving more honorably than SBC leadership regarding this issue. This is my perception and I am going to do some more reading on the topic.

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

Have you priced even a baseball game recently?

It does make one wonder if even our American obsession with sports will succumb to the same fate as the Dutch tulip bubble did in the 17th cent. When the owners have priced themselves out of the reach of the proles, what then?

K.D. wrote:

After spending 30 years battling child abuse the best I can in both the schools and working with the legal system, people just do not think that sexual abuse can happen in the church, even in 2014. People just do not ” get it.” Especially the ” Protestant” church….

I think I put a link in a much older thread on this blog to a site by a Christian guy who is a retired police officer. I can’t remember his name or the site.

This retired police officer now works, IIRC, as a safety consultant for churches.

He has found dead bodies in and around church properties, some of these were murder victims, some were suicides. He told the story of a young lady who invited a 50 year old guy to her church, and he ran her over with her car in the church parking lot (he did it on purpose).

He says a lot of Christians falsely believe that God will specially protect them when they are in or around a church building.

A lot of Christians are also dense about domestic violence.

That domestic violence expert guest speaker I wrote of above? In the same article, he said despite the fact he made it abundantly clear during his Sunday morning speech / educational lecture to the church congregation that a woman is never, ever to blame for being abused, that when he gave a quiz at the end, he was very disappointed that the lesson did not sink in.

He said he gave them scenarios at the end to quiz what they had learned. In one, he gave some example like, “What if a wife accidentally burns her husband’s dinner, and he gets angry as a result and beats her up for this, is that okay?” – sad to say many in the audience thought it was okay.

He ran through other scenarios, and the congregants kept saying, “The wife gave the husband a reason,” or, “if only she had not raised her voice or done thus- and- so, he would not have had a reason to hit her.”

The guy said he had to go back and re-explain all over again to the audience that what the wife did or did not do in each example was irrelevant, that nothing gives a man a right to abuse his wife.

Church people just don’t get this, either. They want to blame a domestic violence victim for being abused.

@ Marie2:
I’m glad my comments help and I am glad you are here to add to the conversation.

@ Nick Bulbeck:

Oops – I hit Post Comment before I’d actually written any comment. Apologies: I have now finished my coffee and may therefore be in a fit state to contribute to this august community.

Anyway: safe in the knowledge that us Brits have TWW to ourselves at this time of day, I shall continue my response to An Attorney’s excellent observations. I can’t help but feel that, more generally, we (the Church at large) have focused on our pet issues du jour in public life for a long time now. It’s as though we like to present ourselves as Speaking For God, who can’t be seen or heard, but we don’t like to speak out on behalf of those whom God himself gravitated to when he walked this planet as one of us.

Paul warned of an end-time phenomenon which he described thus: the love of many people will grow cold. ISTM that this is what the church has cultivated: a cold love. Rather than love Jesus himself, and work alongside him at his Father’s business, we love to trade “facts” about him. How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?

I know how. It is because people believe what they want to believe. And they disbelieve what they want to disbelieve. And the “believers” and the “unbelievers” can each hurl that as an accusation against the other, and therein is a genuine old-west draw down. The thing is, why does one person find it impelling to believe one thing and another person find it impelling to believe something else?

In my admittedly simplistic and biased opinion there are several variables which can be identified. (Just as there are in the question as to why people can ignore child sex abuse and such.) In the case at hand, if one comfortably oozes into the mud wallow of what they actually do believe about “Jesus is alive” or about “the least of these” then one can safely protect oneself from having to actually deal with “the least of these” (which can get messy) and protect oneself from having to actually deal with Jesus (which is always life-changing.) They love the world. Their world and their place in their world, as in the word “prominent” that you used. A little one on one eyeball to eyeball with Jesus would radically change that, and they “believe” enough to know that, and they don’t want to change or have their world change or give up their power and influence and prominence. The praise of men is an addictive intoxicant.

And in the case of the seemingly exclusive focus on the sociopolitical issues of the day, as they see them, there are advantages to that focus. It is easy to make a speech or write a book and profitable to hold a conference and thrilling to grant an interview as compared to getting oneself messy with the least of these. Who wants p&v on their white coat anyhow. It keeps them in the public eye so that their “prominence” expands. Where your treasure is that is where your heart is. Back to the original idea of loving the world.

@ Nancy:
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also

Matthew 6:21

Patrice wrote:

I suspect the thing that stops most people’s empathy is that they just can’t believe that humans could do that much evil. It’s too frightening. IMO.

“Ignorance is Bliss and I WANT EUPHORIA!”

Patrice wrote:

I know this is cranky of me, but it is not my problem when people find my story horrific, frightful or incomprehensible. I had to live it, they only have to hear it.

Amen. I don’t think it is cranky of you at all to remind people of the horrors that Jesus went through to die for us, and to take on great evil that does exist in the world. Just saying.

Some find the sociopolitical topics of the day IS dealing with the least of these, the messiness of reality, and Jesus.

We find when you live openly and in intimate contact with people, every last one of those sociopolitical issues actually DOES have victims. Most have more than one victim, and messiness happens when we choose sides who to help.

Most folks we’ve met in theory at least oppose child abuse. Unless it happens in the womb–then it is a “choice” and the woman is the victim of some crime or bad decision. Most in theory at least oppose the sexual exploitation of children. Unless it happens in the form of children exposed to too much too soon, as in the case of parent’s living “alternative lifestyles” or having sleepovers with “adult friends” or live in boyfriends, etc. Most are against children being the victims of hunger, especially their own kids, unless it means relocating for a job, or the hard work of schooling, or plain not making babies until you can care for them.

I hope your Sunday was at least partly spent at church, and pray you were blessed. We enjoyed a wonderful service, with good music, genuinely kind and caring people, a challenging sermon, and time with Jesus. Rich and poor, varieties of backgrounds, varieties of challenges, but still we were blessed.

Sometimes it helps to remember the church is not a building, but the Body of Christ, and isn’t all bad.

Patrice wrote:

f they find it painful to know how awful things can be, fine, they now have an opportunity to clarify where their pain actually comes from.

I think this is the hardest one for people to deal with. Ultimately, much of the Church tells them that God is sovereign, which translated means that this is what God wanted/sent/allowed for me/you. Why? One, we don’t have a right to question God – end of convo. If you get any further then — two, He allows/sends/wants these things in our lives to purify us, draw us, strengthen us (you get the picture). The Church rarely, if ever, acknowledges evil people that do evil things to innocent people; the world and everything in it is not functioning as originally intended; or, in many cases I, by my own actions, have caused consequences in my life that are difficult. I believe that God functions redemptively in all of these scenarios, but I don’t for a minute believe that He causes/allows/sends evil, our own sin, and a misfunctioning world so that He can then turn around and be redemptive.

linda wrote:

Sometimes it helps to remember the church is not a building, but the Body of Christ, and isn’t all ba

Ty 4 reminder! Very nice.

dee wrote:

I am a bit confused. Could you please help me with the essence of your comment?

Some people want to sound clever, yet they are unaware that their ‘cleverness’ gets in the way of actual communication.

Clarity is better than cleverness. That is, if you give a rip about communication.

(‘nother place holder comment of little to no value.)

dee wrote:

People seem to like the testimonies of “I was once a pedophile but now I am not because of the intervention of these good people.” It is bizarre.
Forget the kid who was harmed. That is messy and we don’t have those “glory, hallelujah” moments like when we “get a pedophile saved.”

Myself and a few others have talked about this at Internet Monk a few times.

A lot of Christians seem to have a preference for over the top or glamorous testimonies. People such as myself don’t seem to matter or count in this.

I was “saved” before I was ten years old, never did drugs, didn’t sleep around, didn’t appear in dirty films. I was a straight A, somewhat nerdy kid who obeyed her teachers and parents.

That’s not as exciting a testimony to some preachers and churches as the guy who stands up and says he used to wear black leather, ride a Harley, abuse drugs, and be in a biker gang.

Daisy wrote:

perhaps they found another charity to donate to, or donated food or money to a local food bank.

Perhaps they did but they certainly didn’t say so. From my observation, they were actions done from impulse, out of rage.

dee wrote:

Well said. Christians can be odd ducks.

Words to live by!

Jeannette Altes wrote:

When a pastor of a self-confessed child molester (so it is not a case of him possibly being falsely accused, which is far more rare than they’re like you to believe)…when a pastor does this and the child that was violated sees her pastor take the side of her abuser, the clear messages this sends can seal her heart against God…against churches…it tells her that God is on the side of the one who hurt her. Yeah. That is not okay.

This is so true. I recently read an article over at Sarah Over the Moon (different Sarah) entitled, “When My Abuser is Welcome At the Table, I Am Not.” I highly recommend Googling it. Please note a trigger warning: rape, spiritual abuse. But that statement absolutely typifies my own feelings about my own abusers and I know many other survivors who feel that way.

@ Jeannette & Patrice,
Sometimes good novelists can have a cathartic effect on us with their writings. You both might be able to profit from Stephen King’s Rose Madder. It’s a tale of horrific abuse endured by a young woman at the hands of her cop husband and how she gets the courage to leave him and start a new life for herself in a big mid-western city. Hubby of course isn’t about to let her go quietly and he tracks her down. We cheer for her and we fear for her against a backdrop of real life that King is gifted enough to paint in both water color and oil. The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

dee wrote:

People seem to like the testimonies of “I was once a pedophile but now I am not because of the intervention of these good people.” It is bizarre.

Not bizarre, it’s FLATTERY.

And with those who want to Admire Their Righteousness, you can lay the flattery on with a gunnite sprayer.

Muff Potter wrote:

I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

Whooo-HOOOO ty 4 sharing such wonderful news! You are an inspiration!! I would love to celebrate that many years of emotional sobriety, lol! Whatever that means…I just know I need to work hard at not getting caught up in my own stuff or that of other people’s. Detaching from myself can be a challenge, lol. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Joe2 wrote:

I agree with what you wrote above, but here is why I believe it is difficult to implement. I think many people go to church to escape reality and live in kind of fantasy world for a few hours on Sunday. Church is sort of marketed that way – sing hymns, hear a spiritually uplifting sermon, get your batteries recharged so you can face another work week on Monday, everyone is polite, socialize with like minded people, etc. The last thing they want to hear is anything that disrupts their comfort zone.

I think this is spot on for a large majority of American Christians – at least in my experience. That is, the ones who aren’t the abusers themselves….

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

Paul warned of an end-time phenomenon which he described thus: the love of many people will grow cold. ISTM that this is what the church has cultivated: a cold love.

Yes. This. I have heard it preached that this is talking about the love in the world growing cold (not the love in the church). But I see it more that the love of the ‘great body,’ i.e., the church, growing cold to itself – losing sight of the “know you are my disciples by your love one for another.”

Cultivating a ‘cold love’ is a very accurate way of describing it and I will hang on to that for future reference. 😉

dee wrote:

Forget the kid who was harmed. That is messy and we don’t have those “glory, hallelujah” moments like when we “get a pedophile saved.” Kids getting abused in our churches, and getting ignored, shows our lack of concern for victims. It is painful and healing won’t come easily.

This, too, is spot on in my experience. There is no photo-op moment that makes you look uber-spiritual when helping the victims. But oh, what it does for your ego to have that ‘converted,’ saved’ abuser notched on your spiritual belt.

An Attorney wrote:

As Jeanette has pointed out, the teaching in many churches supports the actions of pedophiles rather than the pool of potential victims. NO THEOLOGY IS CHRISTIAN (AS IN BASED IN THE LIFE AND TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST) IF IT FACILITATES HARM TO CHILDREN, OR IF IT EXACERBATES THE HARM THEY HAVE ALREADY SUFFERED AND FROM WHICH THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER!!

Yes. This. Thank you. It bears repeating again….and again…and again….until it begins to register….

Sara wrote:

This is so true. I recently read an article over at Sarah Over the Moon (different Sarah) entitled, “When My Abuser is Welcome At the Table, I Am Not.” I highly recommend Googling it. Please note a trigger warning: rape, spiritual abuse. But that statement absolutely typifies my own feelings about my own abusers and I know many other survivors who feel that way.

This is absolutely true. Especially when couched in the understanding that even if the abuser never repents, you must welcome him at the table. No. If he is there and will not even acknowledge that he hurt me, let alone repent of it, then I – the real me buried underneath the abuse (at his hand and now the religious ones’ hands as well) – am most definitely not welcome…..Sara Bessy wrote a post a while back titled “In Which I Am Done Fighting For A Seat At The Table.” It is more about gender equality, but it fits this, as well. Honestly, I do not want a seat at that religious table. They are serving poison…..

Muff Potter wrote:

The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

First, congratulations! That is wonderful.

On the ‘…if we let them’ part, I would caution that although who are well along in the healing process understand what this means and generally agree, those who are still at the beginning stages of healing or are still stuck in the abusive situation will probably interpret this as meaning the abuse is only happening because I let it, therefore, it is my fault. I know from where I speak having experienced this myself.

Muff, I absolutely know this is not your meaning or intent. You have commented here long enough for that to be well known to all the regulars here. But for the sake of readers out there still in the abusive situation or just having gotten out of it, this applies down the road, after the healing has progressed a good pace….then, and only then, when you have gained strength and knowledge about what happened, will it begin to apply.

Jeannette Altes wrote:

There are several things I would like to comment on….but it will have to wait until this evening when I get off work…… 😉

Told you I had a few things to say 🙂
Am having a remarkably good few days emotionally, allowing the energy to post.

@ Muff Potter:

“good novelists can have a cathartic effect on us with their writings”

agreed. as well as music, poetry, theater, film, art, dance. but a well-written novel can go deep.

Congratulations to you. do a tap dance in the kitchen!

Muff Potter wrote:

The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

CONGRATS on 18 years!! That’s amazing! w00t

Patrice wrote:

I recognize you full well, oh woman who will take any thought and turn it into just a tad o’ guilt towards yourself. 😉

If you haven’t the energy, it is not required. Totally. Is. Not. For the rest of your life. 🙂

Yes – my first reaction was to laugh – you do see me….but that was followed by tears…not the bed kind, just those that come when you are recognized and reminded that you don’t have to…..thank you. 🙂

Patrice wrote:

Probably kept you alive, having someone to go with you. So good!!

I have discussed this with her. There is no probably about it. It was on the verge of total internal shut-down. If not for what happened in that church that forced my pain to the surface and this incredible woman who, in the midst of her own pain and trauma, took my hand and walked with me (and I with her), I don’t think I would have survived. I would probably have ended up in an institution if not dead. Hmmm…and my first thought, after typing that is to want to assure other readers that I am not exaggerating….

I’m not sure that there are words that are adequate to describe the pain of facing the sicknees that infects the soul, the body, after sexual abuse….but my friend, from her own past experience, told me that it was going to feel like every cell in my body was trying to throw up at once….graphic…and accurate.

Patrice wrote:

Perhaps they did but they certainly didn’t say so. From my observation, they were actions done from impulse, out of rage.

I don’t necessarily have a problem with people pulling funds from any org – even one that gives free sammiches – if they feel that org is not inline with some of their beliefs.

Daisy wrote:

I don’t necessarily have a problem with people pulling funds from any org – even one that gives free sammiches – if they feel that org is not inline with some of their beliefs.

Well, of course, but that’s not what your comment was about.

And free sammiches or not, pulling funds out of rage is immature, esp when other people’s sammiches are at stake.

Patrice wrote:

Exposure therapy can be helpful until one hits the permanent-damage wall. Now I’m looking for ways to get help with these remainders. Maybe there are some things you could get help with too?

Hmm…not sure what kind of help that would be beyond the therapy and cutting the damaging family members out of my life….is there something you were thinking of specifically?

@ Patrice:

Ah…I understand, now. 🙂

Exposure therapy – just the thought of it can cause distress. Ha.

As to the ‘helps,’ I get get what you mean, now. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 months ago as we agreed that there really was nothing more she could do.

There is an area where I have hired someone to do what I cannot/will not do myself (yeah, I know the guilt thing showing up in that statement), and that is housework. I have someone coming in once a month. It was necessary because I just reached a point where I was completely overwhelmed by it. But I fight guilt about that. I ‘should’ be able to clean my own apartment. Yes – I hear my mother’s voice in that statement. Sigh. And then my father chimes in with, ‘that is such a waste of money.’ Sigh.

You know, I realize that doing laundry has become that to me, as well. I think it isn’t the laundry so much as having to use a communal laundry room and having to ‘risk’ running into people….a few years ago (the laundry room is right next to my apartment), I went in to do laundry late on a Saturday night and there was a homeless man sleeping under the folding table. I didn’t kick him out – it was cold outside – but I think that has played into this….and then the rates increase and it is a pebble placed on a precariously balanced stance – wobbling is a given.

Anything that threatens the precarious balance – mental, financial….can throw me into a panic that feels so out of proportion to the situation, but, as you say, I don’t seem to have control of it. Hmm…I rarely give myself the grace of a recovery period. Never really thought about that. Hmm….

Thank you for the dialogue – we definitely share some ‘remains.’ And yes, I still fight the sense that I am required to ‘soldier on.’ It is what is expected. It is what was always expected. Good little girls don’t complain and they don’t ask for help…. Sigh.

Patrice wrote:

Check it out next time it happens, see if it doesn’t feel like the backend of the flu, all limp, achy, and tending to the weepy.

Yes, it does, now you describe it that way….

Patrice wrote:

Thanks for talking, Jeannette. It’s because of you writing about the washing machine that I called the retired office manager today. You’ve been very helpful. Much appreciated.

Patrice, thank you for talking. This statement brought tears. I am so glad that you called the office manager and that my talking helped with that. It always amazes me when that happens.

Peace and grace to you from out here in the Great American Desert.

Patrice and Jeannette, thank you both so much for your contributions. I too struggle with PTSD as a result of trauma and I appreciate your insights.

@ Adam

P.S. You’ve already arrived here — an excellent place to start gaining that God-given wisdom. “Before you ask, He will answer….” Jesus is just the BEST, isn’t He?!

Here’s what many of C. J. Mahaney’s friends and enablers and irrational DEFENDERS have been doing this week while the Nate Morales trial drags Mahaney’s wickedness out into the light:

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/05/14/tgc-council-meeting-day-1/