Bikers vs Neo-Calvinist Leaders: The Gospel and Child Sex Abuse

“The very first part in healing is shattering the silence,” 
― Erin Merryn, Living for Today: From Incest and Molestation to Fearlessness and Forgiveness link.

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The least of these? Picture allegedly taken by Ligon Duncan's brother

It appears to me that certain leaders of the Neo Calvinist movement are studiously ignoring the problem of child sex abuse and child sex abuse cover-up within specific churches and groups of churches. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. In fact, many of these leaders have spoken out and said they are "against child sex abuse." Sometimes, I feel that these statements are about as meaningful as me saying that I think the greasy popcorn served at movie theaters is really bad for "us' while I buy myself the super-sized popcorn tub with extra butter.

Neo-Calvinist leaders seem to support their pastor buddies while causing pain to the alleged child sex abuse victims.

Last year Associated Baptist Press published two articles on the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sex abuse scandal and lawsuit here and here. In the first post we read:

Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Church in Washington, released a public statement of support for Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Ministries founder C.J. Mahaney in May 2013 that was widely criticized.

This was part of a "now we see it, now we don't" statement by T4G which also included Ligon Duncan linkIn the second post , SNAP's David Clohessy excoriates certain leaders for hurting abused children by standing up for those allegedly accused of child sex abuse cover-up.

David Clohessy, national director of SNAP — the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests – said May 28 that religious leaders voicing support for embattled Pastor C.J. Mahaney, named in a lawsuit recently thrown out of a Maryland court for legal reasons, ought to be ashamed.

It’s dreadfully hurtful to child sex-abuse victims when people in authority publicly back accused wrongdoers,” said Clohessy, one of just four abuse survivors to testify before the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops at their historic meeting in Dallas in 2002. “And it hinders criminal investigations, because it intimidates victims, witnesses and whistleblowers into staying silent.”

Clohessy weighed in after public statements by friends of Mahaney, including Southern Baptist seminary president Albert Mohler and Washington pastor Mark Dever, vouching for the former Sovereign Grace Ministries president’s personal integrity.

“Support Rev. Mahaney if you must,” Clohessy pleaded. “But do so privately in ways that don’t further harm, depress and scare other child sex-abuse victims into keeping silent and thus helping child predators escape detection and prosecution.”

Look at these statements again. By their choices, these leaders are hurting both the abused and hindering investigations.

  • "It’s dreadfully hurtful to child sex-abuse victims when people in authority publicly back accused wrongdoers,”
     
  • "And it hinders criminal investigations, because it intimidates victims, witnesses and whistleblowers into staying silent.”

A number of members of The Gospel™ Coalition (Only Calvinists need apply) have also supported Mahaney. 

We hear from Justin Taylor, Don Carson, and Kevin DeYoung link. 

We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others' sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.'s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.

Three Neo-Calvinist men: Ray Ortlund Jr., Carl Trueman and Kevin DeYoung declared CJ Mahaney fit to serve as a pastor here while Neo-Calvinist Tim Challies wrote a post claiming that it wasn't helpful to him in terms of time management to learn more about this.

  •  I have deliberately avoided learning too much. 
  • To do more may not be spiritually beneficial, it may not reflect good time management, and it may not be loving toward those who are involved.

Let's look again at the list of SGM supporters. What do they all have in common? They are all part of the Neo-Calvinist, culture warrior leadership. 

  • Al Mohler
  • Mark Dever
  • Kevin DeYoung
  • Denny Burk
  • Justin Taylor
  • Don Carson
  • Carl Trueman
  • Ray Ortlund Jr. 
  • Tim Challies

Some in The Gospel™ Coalition excoriated Joe Paterno, who was not on trial, prior to the Sandusky trial.(Update 5/2)  Paterno was NOT a Neo-Calvinist as far as I can tell. Too bad for him…

Collin Hansen wrote a tough article on Joe Paterno before he was convicted link. Why do they not see themselves in this critique?

The abuse allegedly continued until someone outside the cloistered community finally sounded the alarm.
But child molesters and those who harbor them will not find forgiveness in this culture.

Evangelicals are getting quite a reputation for child sex abuse cover-up.

In a Christian Century article, Boz Tchividjian raised the ire of certain evangelicals when he said evangelicals are as bad as the Catholic church in terms of cover-up.

“Protestants can be very arrogant when pointing to Catholics,” Boz Tchividjian, executive director of Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (GRACE), told journalists attending the Religion Newswriters Association conference in Austin, Texas.

“The Protestant culture is defined by independence,” Tchividjian said in comments reported September 26 by Religion News Service.

Evangelicals often frown upon transparency and accountability, he said, as many Protestants rely on scripture more than religious leaders, compared to Catholics. Abusers condemn gossip in their efforts to keep people from reporting abuse, he said. Victims are also told to protect the reputation of Jesus.

Tchividjian said too many Protestant institutions have sacrificed souls in order to protect their institutions. “We’ve got the Gospels backwards,” he said.

In the same article, David Clohessy of SNAP said:

David Clohessy, executive director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), said it’s tough to compare denominations’ handling of child sex crimes and cover-ups, since “virtually all of them tend to be secretive.”

Our good friend, Amy Smith also commented in the same article:

“It is the light of truth and knowledge that is our greatest tool to protect kids,” Smith said. “Silence and secrecy only help child predators. It is past time for evangelicals to open their eyes to see the evil within their midst.”

The recent ERLC (Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission) Leadership (aka Sex) Summit discussed child sex abuse, right? Wrong.

The ERLC is headed by Russell Moore who, according to Wikipedia,

He previously served at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the flagship seminary of the Southern Baptist Convention, as Dean of the School of Theology, Senior Vice President for Academic Administration, and as Professor of Christian Theology and Ethics.

Russell Moore is quite close to Al Mohler and a number of others mentioned above. One could say that he is a member of the Calvinist tribe within the SBC.The Associated Baptist Press published Advocate says something missing at Baptist sex summit.

Amy Smith, a lifelong Southern Baptist who works with Catholics and people from other denominations in an advocacy organization called the Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests, found the subject “noticeably absent” among topics being covered in the April 21-23 “leadership summit” sponsored by the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.

“How can a summit on ‘The Gospel and Human Sexuality’ not include a topic on the pervasive, devastating, destructive issue of sexual abuse?” Smith asked April 22. “Sexual abuse ravages the lives and souls of people that we hope that churches would be trying to minister to, yet the ERLC doesn’t devote a session, or even a breakout session or panel, to cover how pastors and churches should properly respond to abuse allegations to pursue justice, heal the wounded and protect kids in their midst.”

Did the upcoming Nate Morales trial have something to do with the silence?

So, what did they discuss at this "comprehensive" sex summit? Homosexuality and Biblical™manhood and womanhood featured prominently in the discussion. Why not child sex abuse? That would seem like something biblical™ men and women might be interested in. Could it be the upcoming Nate Morales trial might prove to be awkward for their good friends at Sovereign Grace Ministries link? Do they realize that CJ Mahaney's brother in law, Grant Layman has been subpoenaed link?

For those of you unfamiliar with the theology of Sovereign Grace Ministries, SGM has been closely aligned with the Neo-Calvinist movement, even giving money to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (home of Al Mohler, Russell Moore, Denny Burk and many other Neo-Calvinists).

Greg Belser's appointment to the ERLC "leadership council" sends a signal that child sex abuse is not a priority.

Belser's church did not report a child sex abuser to the police and allowed him to confess to his church. That taped confession caused the police to step in. In the ABP article

Greg Belser, pastor of Morrison Heights Baptist Church in Clinton, Miss., agreed with other members of a panel at the ERLC summit discussing “The Gospel and Homosexuality” that the time has come for pastors to get rid of “redneck theology”

Belser, a member of a newly formed “leadership council” named by new ERLC head Russell Moore, attracted media attention on a Sunday morning in 2011 when he turned his pulpit over to a longtime church staff member named John Langworthy.

Langworthy, who had recently resigned after 22 years as associate pastor of music and ministries, confessed to the congregation “sexual indiscretions with younger males” that occurred in the 1980s.

The confession, captured on video posted on the church website, prompted a police investigation. That led to Langworthy’s January 2013 conviction on five felony counts of gratification of lust

The response of Phillip Gunn and Morrison Heights to their pedophile incident bodes poorly for the future reporting child sex abuse within certain groups link. Also, Al Mohler and Russell Moore are staunch advocates for Gunn who has been appointed as chairman of the board for SBTS link.

Bob Allen quotes Amy Smith of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), who sums it up quite well:

“It is very troubling that Philip Gunn as the legal representative for Morrison Heights Baptist Church is trying to keep information from Hinds County prosecutors about a recently arrested and indicted child molester on whose behalf Gunn attempted to ‘discuss a resolution’ with me last May."

“It certainly seems that Mr. Gunn has some explaining to do about why he, as an elder and attorney, participated in an internal church investigation into child sex crimes without going to the police. It raises the question of what he and the church leadership are trying to hide that could help effectively prosecute a confessed child molester.”

Then, we have pastors who claim that the child who has been abused must deal with his/her sin in the matter!

Tim Bayly appears to believe that children who are molested can be sinners in that they come to enjoy it. Yes, that's right.  

*Trigger alert*

If you've spent time counseling victims of child sexual abuse, you know that often you have to help the victim with his or her own guilt. Some of these children became so acclimated to the abuse that they remember how they looked forward to the abuse, and even enjoyed it. Are we so bound up in the politically charged climate of our culture that we have no uniquely Christian place from which to minister to these souls?

Are we so intimidated by our culture that we refuse to help victims experience the love and forgiveness of God for their own sin? Must we allow the pagan mantra that one must never "blame the victim" cause us to deny victims' moral agency that is so integral to their own grief and pain? Is our spiritual care for victims of molestation so tone-deaf that we can't recognize and communicate the distinction between saying a child "asked for it" and hearing an adult survivor's confession that he "came to anticipate and enjoy it?" Is not this too a part of the evil done to the victim by the child corruptor? Regularly, I've counselled souls whose own sexual sin was predated by the sexual sin of others against them, usually during their childhood. Is this any surprise and must it be responded to by pastoral obtuseness or denial of these victims' own guilt?

Just in case that you think this "blame the victim" is an isolated occurrence, here is a true story involving Deb and me. At a church in our area, a pedophile was discovered and went to jail. There were some concerns about how this incident was handled. A young teen boy had reported some unwanted behavior by this youth leader which was subsequently ignored. When a group of us pressed the issue, an elder visited this young teen.

Didn't you know this was wrong? Why didn't you report it?

This elder represents a view in some Reformed circles which hinges on total depravity. The"sinful" child victim is equally to blame. He should have done something. Maybe he even liked it. This shows a profound lack of understanding and compassion for those who have been abused by those who are perceived to be authority figures by children. We preach authority and then blame children when they obey authority. How deeply disturbing and sick is that?

Will the next ERLC summit in October deal with child sex abuse? Need you ask? Link

It's about homosexuality, once again…

The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention announced today a new national conference addressing “The Gospel, Homosexuality, and the Future of Marriage” to be held at the iconic Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., October 27-29, 2014.

The Real Gospel: Boz Tchividjian and bikers who get it when gospel™ leaders do not.

You do know that Boz is not invited to these sex summits-don't you? Yet his group actually cares for the abused children: GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Setting link.) It is quite telling that ERLC has not invited Boz Tchividjian to their sex summits. It appears the issue of homosexuality far outweighs the concern for kids who are being abused in churches around the world.

At a recent conference, given by GRACE, BACA was introduced. Did you know that when pedophiles go to court, certain pastors will go to court and sit on the side of the pedophile? What signal does that send the victim?

In fact, what signal does the following picture send victims? Al Mohler, John MacArthur, Thabiti Anyabwile, John Piper and Kevin DeYoung sitting with CJ Mahaney, front and center, at the recent T4G conference. Look hard. Do any of you see any victims of child sex abuse up there? Is this a picture of the Gospel in action or the gospel™? Imagine what goes through the minds of the alleged victims of SGM's alleged child sex abuse cover up? What about their pain? Always remember this picture because it speaks volumes about who gets the love and attention of the Calvinsta leaders.

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 BACA presents a far different picture of the Gospel in action. BACA stands for Bikers Against Child Abuse link. Here is what they say about themselves.

Bikers Against Child Abuse (BACA) exists with the intent to create a safer environment for abused children. We exist as a body of Bikers to empower children to not feel afraid of the world in which they live. We stand ready to lend support to our wounded friends by involving them with an established, united organization. We work in conjunction with local and state officials who are already in place to protect children. We desire to send a clear message to all involved with the abused child that this child is part of our organization, and that we are prepared to lend our physical and emotional support to them by affiliation, and our physical presence. We stand at the ready to shield these children from further abuse. We do not condone the use of violence or physical force in any manner, however, if circumstances arise such that we are the only obstacle preventing a child from further abuse, we stand ready to be that obstacle.

I wonder, does Al Mohler or Kevin DeYoung's church show concern for abuse victims like this group?

Our Court Appearances

We also attend court with our wounded friends. The sole purpose for our physical presence is to assist the child in being less intimidated and frightened, and subsequently give an accurate testimony regarding his/her abuse. If the child requests our presence in the courtroom, the parent or guardian for the child must petition the child’s attorney, who then will intercede on behalf of the child to the presiding Judge. Absolutely no physical confrontation of the perpetrator will be tolerated by BACA, and anyone acting in such a manner will be acting outside of the scope of BACA and will be held completely and solely accountable for his/her actions. When possible, the two bikers assigned to the child as his/her primary contacts should be in attendance.

I wonder if John Piper or Russell Moore's church express the following concerns?

BACA Creed

I am a member of Bikers Against Child Abuse. The die has been cast. The decision has been made. I have stepped over the line. I wont look back, let up, slow down, back away, or be still.

My past has prepared me, my present makes sense, and my future is secure. I'm finished and done with low living, sight walking, small planning, smooth knees, colorless dreams, tamed visions, mundane talking, cheap giving, and dwarfed goals.

I no longer need pre-eminence, prosperity, position, promotions, plaudits, or popularity. I dont have to be right, first, tops, recognized, praised, regarded, or rewarded. I now live by the faith in my works, and lean on the strength of my brothers and sisters. I love with patience, live by prayer, and labor with power.

My fate is set, my gait is fast, my goal is the ultimate safety of children. My road is narrow, my way is rough, my companions are tried and true, my Guide is reliable, my mission is clear. I cannot be bought, compromised, detoured, lured away, turned back, deluded, or delayed. I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate in the presence of adversity, negotiate at the table of the enemy, ponder at the pool of popularity, or meander in the maze of mediocrity.

I wont give up, shut up, let up, until I have stayed up, stored up, prayed up, paid up, and showed up for all wounded children. I must go until I drop, ride until I give out, and work till He stops me. And when He comes for His own, He will have no problem recognizing me, for He will see my BACA backpatch and know that I am one of His. I am a member of Bikers Against Child Abuse, and this is my creed.

I wonder who is truly showing the Gospel and dealing with the least of these?

What BACA does…I wonder if any of the men mentioned in this post have ever shed tears like these bikers.

See BACA go to court and sit on the side of the child! See how the "good" church members sit on the side of the church deacon predator.


 

Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 23:1-49 Hebrews 10:18-39 Psalm 109:1-31 Proverbs 27:13

Comments

Bikers vs Neo-Calvinist Leaders: The Gospel and Child Sex Abuse — 328 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    First!


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    Re: 'Some in The Gospel™ Coalition excoriated Joe Paterno prior to his conviction" Was it Paterno they excoriated or was it the since (ed.) convicted child molester/ assistant coach, Sandusky? I do not recall that Joe Paterno was charged with a crime or convicted of anything.


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    correction: *since convicted*


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    @ raswhiting:
    You are correct. My mistake-I will make the correction. Thanks.


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    Dee – honestly, this post is such a succinct encapsulation of what TWW stands for. It’s jam-packed with research (will take me a while to go through all the links) and should be a “must-read” for newer members of the TWW community.

    Will in particular look forward to reading the ABP article on the “summit” and the Christian Century article.

    That photo of Ceej and “the gang” says it all, doesn’t it? 🙁

    As for Tim Bayly – when is the PCA going to take responsibility for this sad little man in their midst?! Not that there is likely anything that can be done, Presbyterian “government” being what it is …


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    God bless BACA.


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    Jesus referred to “the least of these” as those to whom Christians are to minister, care, etc. When abused children get more attention that the push to deny civil rights to adults based on their gender preferences, I will reconsider my belief that none of the named “Christian” leaders deserve the title “Christian”, because they surely are not living in commitment to the commands of the Christ.


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    Well, Tim Bayly started with a valid point – victims and survivors of abuse often feel guilty- but he reached exactly the wrong conclusion. Counselors shouldn't help them seek forgiveness, but to recognize that they have nothing to feel guilty for. To recognize the guilt and the things they feel guilty for as part of the abuse and the abuser's manipulation. Rape and molestation victims often experience physical arousal, even orgasm, and victims of all types often love or like their abusers. That's how abusers keep abusing and it's part of the mind-f@$!. Bayly is, quite frankly, a disgusting human being for not recognizing this if he spends time counseling victims.


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    So many red flags.

    If people rant constantly about sexual sins among homosexuals and ignore sexual sins among heterosexuals, why do they do that? Do they hate sin or don’t they? Could it be partly to create a diversion?

    If people are maniacal about authority structures and hierarchy and control and dominance, why would that be? What do they think might “get out of control” that they might be afraid of?

    And if they even go so far as to ignore sex abuse of children and adolescents, which our whole culture believes to be wrong (at least we hope so) then what has driven them to this extreme? Why would they tell the men to get the porn off their computers but not tell them to get their hands off the kids? Do they maybe think that a little “friendliness” with a child is not really all that wrong?

    I will leave the theories to people who are better at it than I am. But as one who has had a lot of close up observation of non-neo-Cal evangelical / fundamentalist thinking at its worst it is my observation that there is so much @#$% that needs cleaned up in that system that if they even start in the direction of clean up the whole system just might crumble like the walls of Jericho.


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    So, you have nothing to add about the serious topic discussed above? Just a text selfie?@ Nancy:


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    Don wrote:

    So, you have nothing to add about the serious topic discussed above?

    Et tu?


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    “Pagan Mantra” to not blame the victim? Call me pagan then because i’m darn sure not calling myself a christian.


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    @ Don:

    There you go, Don. Just a few kind words from a little old lady to start the day off.


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    A few thoughts…

    I understand the initial reaction to a church leader “sitting” on the side of the accused…But what if the accused is innocent, or, you are reasonably sure they are innocent? Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare. Would not automatically assuming the accuser to be completely right before all the evidence is accounted for just as damaging as automatically assuming the accused is guilty? Not that this question answers whose “side” one should sit on, but just a general thought…

    As far as what topics are addressed at a conference…..What percentage of protestant churches deal with sexual abuse issues(of minors or otherwise). Without any actual numbers, I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

    As a pastor and someone in ministry for a number of years that cover a number of denominations and parachurch organizations I have never once run across this issue in any form. But what I do deal with on a regular basis is the questions about homosexuality and gender issues(regardless of onces position). And if I was signing up for a conference on the Bible and Sexuality I wouldn’t even consider abuse as warranting a “session”. Not to downplay its tragic destructiveness, but, that in my experience it has been completely non-existent.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    And if I was signing up for a conference on the Bible and Sexuality I wouldn’t even consider abuse as warranting a “session”

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    but, that in my experience it has been completely non-existent.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form,

    And this comment proves the point of my post. You, sir, need an education. Go to GRACE and start reading. The children around you deserve better than this.


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    That’s it, I’m getting a motorcycle! ….Seriously though, once my kids are grown, learning to ride and joining that organization is on my list.


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    Collin Hansen wrote a tough article on Joe Paterno before he was convicted link. Why do they not see themselves in this critique?

    Because Joe Pa is one of those HEATHENS.

    WE have THE Perfectly Parsed, Utterly Correct Theology!
    WE HAVE BEEN PREDESTINED BY *GOD* TO DO NO WRONG!
    (CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN!)


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    I am off to a retreat. I will leave you in the capable hands of our readers! Good night!


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    Every time I see that picture of the neoCal Pharisees sitting in the front row of their synagogue, I have this vision of them getting up on stage and singing

    but my dreams they aren’t as empty, as my conscience seems to be”


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare

    Actually, false accusations of sexual abuse, particularly against powerful people, are extremely rare. Accusers know they will not be believed and that they will be subject to attacks by all and sundry.

    And considering that one in four women will be victims of sexual assault, it beggars belief that you haven’t encountered this problem before.


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    Will the next ERLC summit in October deal with child sex abuse? Need you ask? Link It's about homosexuality, once again… The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention announced today a new national conference addressing “The Gospel, Homosexuality, and the Future of Marriage” to be held at the iconic Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., October 27-29, 2014.

    They're the background characters from Lenny Bruce's "Masked Man". Specifically, the one townsman who after Masked Man outs himself and Tonto, just stands around pointing at Masked Man screaming "FAAAAG! FAAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAG!" for the entire remainder of the skit.

    You do know that Boz is not invited to these sex summits-don't you? Yet his group actually cares for the abused children: GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Setting link.) It is quite telling that ERLC has not invited Boz Tchividjian to their sex summits. It appears the issue of homosexuality far outweighs the concern for kids who are being abused in churches around the world.

    "FAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAG! FAAAAAAAAAAAG!" As we have seen with Douggie ESQUIRE, Godly Gothard, and Shaft-Polishing Schaapf, going after Jail Bait and kids is OK as long as the kids are opposite sex. If it's same-sex, it's HOMOSEXUALITY(TM); opposite sex, it's Privilege of Rank for the Predestined Elect, a reward for their Perfectly-Parsed Correct Theology.

    BACA presents a far different picture of the Gospel in action. BACA stands for Bikers Against Child Abuse link. I wonder, does Al Mohler or Kevin DeYoung's church show concern for abuse victims like this group?

    They're BIKERS, not Head Apostles and CELEBRITY Pastors, not Predestined Elect, not God's Speshul Pets. No Perfectly-Parsed Theology, no Honorary Doctorates awarded by other Head Apostles and CELEBRITY Pastors they rub shoulders with at Conferences. Where are their Megachurches? Their Gigachurches? Their best-selling Christianese books? Their Perfect Theology training seminars? Their Conferences? Why, they've NEVER even heard of Calvin's Institutes!


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not to downplay the horrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare.

    You just did downplay the horrors. In fact, your whole post downplays the horrors of child abuse in churches – of all of the horrors of child abuse in churches that have been reported, how many have been found to have been false? I’m waiting…..

    Adam, why do you turn a blind eye to children who have been victimized by churches? It is people like you makes churches a magnet for pedophiles – but I guess that’s OK as long as there aren’t any homosexuals in the church, eh?


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    Nancy wrote:

    I will leave the theories to people who are better at it than I am. But as one who has had a lot of close up observation of non-neo-Cal evangelical / fundamentalist thinking at its worst it is my observation that there is so much @#$% that needs cleaned up in that system that if they even start in the direction of clean up the whole system just might crumble like the walls of Jericho.

    Like Gorbachev’s Perestroika and the Soviet System; once any reform began, the whole system just fell completely apart.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    What percentage of protestant churches deal with sexual abuse issues(of minors or otherwise). Without any actual numbers, I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

    Any church that views child abuse to be a minor problem is a risky church for a child to attend. "Abusers go where protection barrier is the lowest. Where is the protection barrier the lowest? Church." Please take 30 minutes from your day to educate yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z_UUNSskzU&feature=em-share_video_user

    [[MOD:Edit per request to fix link]]


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Ask yourself this, Adam. Why is the church blind to this? All I know is what I have experienced. I am a doctor (radiology) and I have seen right much of child abuse and have even testified in court in certain kinds of abuse cases. My daughter is a school teacher, and she has seen more than I have of abused children. My son is a career prosecutor (first ADA then Fed) and his wife specializes in family law and guess what. Guess what! And not one of us–not one of us who are trained to see it and are aware of it and hate it–not one of us has “seen” it at church. How can that be when there are so many injured adults with so many believable stories to tell?

    Maybe it is because so many people go to church and pretend. Pretend to believe. Pretend that their lives are perfect or at least “fine.” Pretend to care about each other. Pretend that things are “good” at home. Pretend that their hands are clean and their pants are zipped. And that is just the clergy I am talking about. The rest of the folks are just as bad.

    Massive repentance needs to happen. But “you got to get them lost before you can get them saved” and that starts with the willingness to look straight at evil and call it by its correct name. We try to do that here, and the Deebs are masters of it. Stick around and see.


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    Rafiki wrote:

    That photo of Ceej and “the gang” says it all, doesn’t it? 🙁

    “These six Kings said one to another:
    ‘King unto King o’er the world is Brother’…”
    (Even the one token black.)

    And you get the Perqs — front seat at the synagogue, with liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before you to announce how HUMBLE you are.


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    Don, Nancy had quite a lot to say about this serious topic but her comment triggered an automatic moderation. Once the comment is approved it goes into the thread at the time Nancy originally attempted to post it. By telling us she had a comment in moderation, readers know to check back for it. I for one would not want to miss one if her thoughtful comments.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Exactly. On a slightly different bent, here, I note that China has undergone some reform away from some of the worst abuses of communism and has had a rather controlled dissolution of the system. That missiologist that I used to quote got into why the state church in Russia collapsed under communism but christianity in China is flourishing. Interesting thing about what happens when things change.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Oh my! You are living in the dark ages. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee!

    This is such a BIG ISSUE that the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. tackled it last year.

    Here is the resolution that was adopted at the 2013 Southern Baptist Convention Annual Meeting:

    WHEREAS, The Bible is clear in its affirmation that children are a gift from the Lord (Psalm 127:3–5); and

    WHEREAS, The Lord Jesus demonstrated His love for children by encouraging them to follow Him, correcting those who hindered them, and condemning those who harmed them (Matthew 18:3–6; Mark 10:13–14); and

    WHEREAS, The sexual abuse of children remains an ever-increasing criminal offense with more than 1.8 million reported victims of sexual abuse by more than 750,000 child abuse perpetrators identified in the United States alone; and

    WHEREAS, Tragically, instances of sexual abuse have been perpetrated within Southern Baptist congregations, churches of other denominations, and other Christian ministries; now, therefore, be it

    RESOLVED, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Houston, Texas, June 11–12, 2013, call upon Southern Baptists to stand with our Lord Jesus in loving and protecting children as He does; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That we remind all Southern Baptists of their legal and moral responsibility to report any accusations of child abuse to authorities in addition to implementing any appropriate church discipline or internal restoration processes; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That we likewise call upon all Southern Baptists to cooperate fully with law enforcement officials in exposing and bringing to justice all perpetrators, sexual or otherwise, who criminally harm children placed in our trust; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That we strongly urge Southern Baptist churches to utilize background checks like those provided through LifeWay Christian Resources (www.lifeway.com/backgroundchecks), databases of sexual predators such as the US Department of Justice sex offender database linked at SBC.net (www.SBC.net/localchurches/ministryhelp.asp), or other relevant resources in screening all potential staff and volunteer workers, particularly those who minister to children and youth; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That we encourage pastors and church leaders to develop and implement sound policies and procedures to protect our children; and be it further

    RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse; and be it finally

    RESOLVED, That we urge all Southern Baptists to pray for children who are victims of abuse, to stand for their protection from abuse, and to support safe and healthy children’s ministries in our churches and communities.

    Please take the time to do some research on this growing problem in Christendom. Our archives are a good starting point, as is Stop Baptist Predators.

     


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    @ Adam Borsay: Check this out

    http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics

    Look at the connections between drug abuse and sexual abuse as a child. Look at all the connections. Your experience must be small, sheltered, and insignificant if you're not aware of the world around you.


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    @ Bridget:

    Deebs – can someone fix that link. It probably needs a space inserted between ‘out’ and the link. Thanks.


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    Just so nobody misses this…

    TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly. They split a few years ago because the PCA was not patriarchal enough for them. Heck, even the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that Tim helped to found back in the day, was ultimately not patriarchal enough. Because nothing is as -properly patriarchal- as the Bayly clan and their Clearnote churches centered in Indiana. They’ve basically started their own microdenomination and now are going for their own college or seminary (or both).


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    @ Bridget:

    If you really want to be like Jesus, get yourself outside of the church walls, although you will find child abuse in the Church as well. There are plenty of abused children that need love in and out of the Church. Why not a seminar on abuse? I'd really like to hear your reasons.


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    Love this article, Dee. I’ve seen an interview with that biker group before and it left me in tears. No attention to SELF, but genuine love and respect for the victim and their family. As it should be. I’m so tired of these ridiculous clowns who wear the Neo Calvinist hats. They need to wear a scarlet letter A for Apathy.


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    To Adam Borsay,

    You say you have never run into this personally as a pastor. I wonder, if there anyone in your church dealing with abuse (past or present), would they feel safe coming to talk to you about it? Could it be that you’ve given off the impression that there are certain subjects a person just can’t address with you, and that’s why you’ve never heard of this from any of the people in your spiritual care?


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    @ Bridget: Done 🙂


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    NJ wrote:

    To Adam Borsay,
    You say you have never run into this personally as a pastor. I wonder, if there anyone in your church dealing with abuse (past or present), would they feel safe coming to talk to you about it? Could it be that you’ve given off the impression that there are certain subjects a person just can’t address with you, and that’s why you’ve never heard of this from any of the people in your spiritual care?

    I was about to ask the very same thing. I AM a sexual abuse survivor and I see no reason whatsoever to bring it up to ANY pastor in ANY church, with a few RARE exceptions.

    Since this does not appear to be an important issue for you to learn about, why would anyone come to you about it???

    If I had a horrible rash suddenly develop all over my body, why would I go see a podiatrist about it?

    Why should anyone who is a sexual abuse victim take you seriously, anyway?

    There is an entire field – public health – that pastors need an edumahcation about.

    Statistics about population health don’t tell lies.

    Please come back here and tell us that you are starting to read outside your comfort zone. Your post was an insult and slap in the face to the hurting.


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    Leaders = persuading by their good example. The members of BACA seem to meet this definition. I have seen so many great examples of leaders on the TWW and other “discernment” blogs, ranging from young girls to old men, and few of them have ever been to seminary. The people I meet here often encourage my own faint-hearted self to be brave on behalf of others.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    http://www.victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics

    Try to remember that most child sexual abuse goes unreported – until the child becomes an adult and its too late to prosecute. Some is never reported.

    If, as you believe, 99% of Protestant pastors will never deal with it, then we have a problem in the Protestant pastoring realm. As a matter of fact, I didn’t inform my protestant pastors of an issue I’m aware of because I didn’t trust them to love and care for the child properly. The situation was investigated and counseling is occurring, but not from the men who preach from the pulpit that God is the sovereign who sends and/or allows all circumstances in our lives. The child already heard that enough to not trust God. In the child’s eyes God became a monster. It irritates me to no end that children, in Protestant churches, are told from a young age that God is the sovereign of all providence. Imagine an abused child listening to the imbalance of that their entire young lives. And pastors wonder why young adults walk away from God. When God is the sovereign over good and evil, and doesn’t stop the evil, He is as nothing.

    I don’t believe that God allows children to be sexually abused(.)(!) It’s really hard to convince an abused person of this though, especially one who has grown up ‘believing’ the warped theology preached in the Prostestant churches.

    And John Piper’s (among other current celeb preachers) idea of indoctrinating children in Sunday School, at young ages, with concepts about God that their undeveloped brains can’t grasp is actually insidious. And that’s my very strong opinion based on my experience with abused children.

    Do you have experience with abused children?


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Dear Adam,

    I understand that perhaps your churches are whites only…..or you and your colleagues are just plain sheltered….In any case, I do hope you can take the time to read at least this much information.

    I understand that your loyalties are to your specific flocks’ perceived needs. I do hope, though, that God opens your eyes to the incredible need.

    Even if none of your parishioners have experienced this themselves, which in the face of many statistics I find difficult to believe, in each person’s sphere of influence, he/she is bound to come across this issue.

    Why not try to equip the saints to address this societal issue? What happened to evangelism, and caring for the least of these?????

    You have in the past sounded like a caring person. Please don’t turn a calloused eye towards this and just walk away. You’ve faced difficulties in your ministries, before, right? I hope you can be brave enough to stay here, read the recommended links, and talk about the issue, instead of just saying “It has nothing to do with my life.” Statistics speak loudly that you will one day have to confront this issue, and it would be better to prepare wisely.

    http://thegrio.com/2012/08/01/childhood-sexual-abuse-and-aids-in-the-black-community-are-linked/

    New research raises the question of a link between childhood sexual abuse and a higher risk for HIV/AIDS.

    The study, conducted by Drexel University, tracked 40,000 people, including a significant number of blacks and Hispanics. The data suggests that not only was childhood sexual abuse linked to risky sexual behavior as an adolescent or adult, but could also impact getting tested, diagnosed and starting treatment once infected with HIV.

    According to Dr. Theresa Sweet, one of the study authors at the Drexel University School of Public Health, “childhood sexual abuse was defined as being touched or fondled in a sexual way, [or] forced or attempted sexual intercourse before the age of 17.”

    Data from the Black Women’s Health Imperative has long pointed to high rates of sexual abuse in the black community. It shows that 40 percent of black women have experienced some form of sexual assault or abuse.

    “This study is not designed to further stigmatize men and women who experienced some form of sexual abuse or violence, nor is it a suggestion that all people living with HIV were previously abused,” Sweet says.

    “We don’t really know why some people who are abused fair better than others, but we do know that some people who can talk about what happened to them and have a support system, whether it be family, mental health support seem to [do] better,” she adds.


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    You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know. – William Wilberforce


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

    Brother, even if you’ve never had to deal with this issue personally, you and every other pastor and church leader in America had better learn how to deal with it, just in case you ever have to. Far too many pastors respond in horribly wrong ways when they face cases of sex abuse. SGM and Prestonwood Baptist are tragic examples of what I mean.

    As everyone here has said, Adam: Educate yourself. For the sake of kids under your care.


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    NJ wrote:

    TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly. They split a few years ago because the PCA was not patriarchal enough for them. Heck, even the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that Tim helped to found back in the day, was ultimately not patriarchal enough.

    Was the Taliban patriarchal enough for them?


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    NJ wrote:

    They’ve basically started their own microdenomination…

    “Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…

    Oh, wait, you mean “cult”. OK that I understand. 😉 As to the Bayly brothers being cultish — well, that’s not news to me.


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    JeffT wrote:

    Every time I see that picture of the neoCal Pharisees sitting in the front row of their synagogue, I have this vision of them getting up on stage and singing

    I just noticed the one/token black face in the row of white faces.


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    Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    “Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…

    Ever heard of the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism?

    MILLIONS of One True New Testament Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates and Lukewarms.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Was the Taliban patriarchal enough for them?

    Only if the Baylys get to be Mutaween.


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    42nd!


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    I’m ‘not’ sorry, but there is more . . .

    On top of everything else, the child now experiences (in the Protestant church) isolation because they don’t interact in Sunday school classes with the other children the way ‘most’ children do. They can’t, because they can’t process this God that everyone else adores. Other parents now wonder what is wrong with the child and why the parents aren’t bringing them up ‘properly’ in the Lord (sounds so wonderfully spiritual, doesn’t it). Parent’s start isolating their children and their family from said child and his/her family, because, you know, they’re not with the ‘holy, church’ program (for goodness sake!)

    Meanwhile, the parents of said child have no idea why any of this is going on with their child. They haven’t a clue. But their entire family is labeled as ‘off, troubled, not doing something right.’ Just so you know, children rarely share this information WITH ANYONE until they are older. There are documented reasons for this. It might not be because the parents were negligent in any way. These children often have additional issues (that only add to the shunning by the Protestant church) because of self-medication, stealing, self-abuse, etc., etc., etc.

    The parents who become aware of what their child is dealing with are in a very difficult situation in the Protestant church. For one, most of the theology they hear offers no help and, in fact, further harms the parent and the child. Secondly, as you so nicely explained, 99% of the pastors don’t ever deal with abuse, so why give any time to it at all. They don’t bother themselves with the fact that a large majority of people who are in jail, on drugs, alcoholic, or in trouble with the law – have been abused and/or neglected. Thirdly, the children are now older, and need safety and security to heal (if that has even begun), and parents are not going to share their hardship with the Protestant church (with it’s theology on the sovereignty of God) that has been distancing themselves from this family. (But somehow, in protestant theology, that is all this families own fault.)

    Please open your eyes. There is probably abuse/neglect of some kind right in front of you. Jesus found it all around him and went about doing good to heal it!

    (Can’t promise I’m finished yet folks. A cord has been struck.)


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    I may have shared this here before, but in light of the cowards all around us who turn a willfully blind eye to child sex abuse within their own ranks, I thought I’d share my husband’s guest post Of Questions and Cowards.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/04/of-questions-and-cowards.html

    I’m so thankful for Matt. He gets it.


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    @ Deb:

    Thanks! The statistics might help 99% of ‘Protestant Pastors” get some sort of clue . . .


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    I actually knew Tim and his wife back in the day, when he was at Gordon Conwell. We had them over to dinner, even! I’m stunned at the direction his life has taken.


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    “I don’t see it, therefore it isn’t there,” is what my two-year-old does when she covers her eyes and says, “Come find me!” What an immature, ignorant way of dealing with an area that you’re not familiar with at all. Wouldn’t you approach something like “the weather” or “music theory” or “paleontology” with a little bit more intelligence and humility than, “It must not be very common, since I don’t know anything about it.”

    Deebs, if I’m too harsh, feel free to delete. I can claim post-partum nastiness for at least the next two months, right? 😉


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    BTW – please, please, please, do not offer to walk along side someone who is dealing with child abuse unless you are willing to love them through, and for, the long haul. You will only harm them more if you know not what you do. “You” will often have to repent for the unintentional pain you cause.

    PS – the love you will need will not be like any you have given before.


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    I don’t like it that commenters like Adam Borsay come on here like this. I don’t like it because it literally makes me sick. It is necessary though IMO that people like him DO come on here and express their thoughts because then very very necessary repeatings of all the necessary comments back to him that will educate not just him but any new readers to TWW.
    Oh but Adam Borsay, you gave me a PTSD episode this morning not because of your ignorance but because you make it sound like you don’t even care that you are ignorant about this subject. In answer to some of your questions, I have said many times that even if I was falsely accused and sentenced to life in prison or banished from church I would still support the victims by promoting the strictest of justice for them.
    I hope that you do not have a strict no gossip policy at your church like SGM does. If you do you may never know of an incident were it to arise in your church.


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    Taylor Joy wrote:

    What an immature, ignorant way of dealing with an area that you’re not familiar with at all. Wouldn’t you approach something like “the weather” or “music theory” or “paleontology” with a little bit more intelligence and humility than, “It must not be very common, since I don’t know anything about it.”

    See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil: The Southern Baptist Convention and child sexual abuse within – See more at: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/06/three-wise-monkeys-photo-by-menage-moi.html#sthash.rg1DCPii.dpuf


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    Deebs –

    Suggestion – a picture of a biker with their BACA jacket right, smack next to (or above 🙂 ) the picture of the seated ‘Protestant Pastors.’ And maybe just a small caption under the pictures. “What do these men have in common? Not much it seems. The bikers are doers and not hearers only.”

    You know what they say – a picture is worth a thousand words. I sort of dislike seeing the T4G picture at the top of the post with the BACA guys at the bottom.


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    Dee and Deb,
    Thank you for this. TWW serves as an early warning system for evangelicals. Several times now, the stories you cover have crossed over into mainstream media. Because of your in-depth research I’ve been able to speak to the stories with fellow believers in an informed way.

    I’m the only one in my group (that I know of) who follows TWW. What others first though was a morbid curiosity in “matters that don’t concern me” has now turned into “so what have you read lately” attitude. Keep doing what you do — it makes a difference.


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    I think my point was poorly put and I offended many…

    In my church I would say 2-4%(that I know of) of the people have experienced some form of abuse in their life(often a long time ago). I fully recognize the problem as being pervasive in the whole of society. I am fully opposed to any sort of statement/mindset that either explicitly or implicitly causes any victim to feel that they had some part(due to their own sinfulness)to play in why they were abused.

    When I say that I haven’t worked in a ministry that has had to “deal” with this issue, I meant that it hadn’t happened WITHIN our ministry. The policies that I have operated under and implemented personally are; 1) Background checks for anyone serving with minors, 2) No adult ever alone(one on one) with a child that is not their own. 3) At least 2 people working together with kids.

    This does not mean that abuse doesn’t happen outside of the umbrella of our ministry, it just eliminates the chances of it happening as a part of the ministry.

    Just this past year I found out a divorced woman with young children at home brought her new boyfriend into her home with his teenage son. While we have no knowledge of either him or his son having predatory history we sat down with her and dealt with the two issues that we were strongly opposed to: Living with her new boyfriend(biblically not acceptable) and bringing these strange men into her house. She did not like that we were “judging” her or her choices so she stopped coming to church. He is probably not a predator in any capacity, but I believe this sort of behavior and attitude can unnecessarily put children in harms way.

    Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested. Not to down play the issues of child abuse, but, unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse. Someone else posted the SBC’s policies about addressing the issue and I think that is a fine way to address it. As I mentioned, no kids left alone with adults, don’t ignore potential areas of abuse. And after that I don’t know how much more there is to say.

    Now, helping/counseling those who have suffered abuse is a whole different set of issues. For instance, if you were hosting a conference on biblical concepts of counseling I would expect that one of the main areas that would be addressed is counseling those who had suffered abuse due to its prevalent nature in our society.

    If anyone felt I was downplaying the degree of abuse in society today I am very sorry. With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.


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    In a Christian Century article, Boz Tchividjian raised the ire of certain evangelicals when he said evangelicals are as bad as the Catholic church in terms of cover-up.

    Actually, Boz said evangelicals are worse than us Catholics.

    Which nowadays is patently true. Wasn’t always true. But is now.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

    That is a start.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    In my church I would say 2-4%(that I know of) of the people have experienced some form of abuse in their life(often a long time ago)

    If those stats do not approach the figures for the incidence of abuse in our culture, where are the people? In somebody else’s church? Kind of doubtful. Why would they not be “in church?” Maybe back in the day they got marginalized and “run off” and somebody let them think that God did that to them and that there was something wrong with them? But for that matter, so what if there is something wrong with them, before or during or after the abuse? What is the church supposed to be? Just a place where folks who have it all together can get together and enjoy togetherness?


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    Serious question based on this post: are any TWW readers comfortable trusting their children to a SBC nursery?


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    Catholic Homeschooler wrote:

    Which nowadays is patently true. Wasn’t always true. But is now.

    In the vid I linked up thread, attorney Greg Love says just that. Since the Catholic Church has been wracked by scandal, they’ve actually raised their fences higher. Where do you suppose the problems are popping up now? In Protestant churches. Yet, they continue to stick their heads in the sand, and pretend there is no problem. It’s a recipe for disaster.


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    Great post and very informative. It’s truly disturbing to see the silence on this issue on the part of those who not only ought to be saying something, but who have enough power to bring about real changes for the better if they choose to.

    I don’t follow most of the calvinist types closely as I have moved away from the reformed tradition. I do look in on JMac’s website and blog pretty regularly only because I have a family member deeply enmeshed in following his teaching. In the past year he has had many posts detailing the errors of other groups and individuals (charismatics, continuationists, theistic evolutionists, and even John Piper) and laying in excruciating detail what his crowd believes is the right take on these issues. But advocating for the outcast, the victim, the poor, the neglected, etc. is just not there. Now I’m sure he and his followers would insist that they care about victims and the least among us if you asked them, but the fact is that we don’t see that message consistently, or in some cases, at all. Crickets mostly. I don’t know if they realize that silence also can speak volumes.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Yet, they continue to stick their heads in the sand, and pretend there is no problem. It’s a recipe for disaster.

    Precisely. And there is, of course, another word for pretending.


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Yes, I would, because around here measures like Adam described are pretty widespread as far as I know. And you did say nursery. But that is only part of the picture, of course. Younger youth group sleep over would be a different thing–have to give that a lot of thought.


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    Nancy wrote:

    Younger youth group sleep over would be a different thing–have to give that a lot of thought.

    Yes, the children’s and youth groups also need consideration.
    When we decide we’re ready to look for another church, theology will be the second consideration. First I’d consider what child protection measures they have in place.


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    The prevention of sexual abuse within the church (both child abuse and abuse of adults) requires a number of things:

    1. Facilities that mitigate against abuse: Glass walls and/or uncovered windows in areas where children, youth, and counselees are. Elder abuse is more common than many think, and policies should cover this as well.

    2. Policies and procedures that prevent children, youth and counselees ever being alone with one other person and out of sight of other people.

    3. Explicit policies, posted, that require all questionable conduct to be reported and that those reporting will be protected. Unusual behavior by children that suggest sexual awareness inappropriate for their age should result in a visit with a trained child sexual abuse investigator; CASA (court appointed special advocates for children) usually have such an investigator available.

    4. Explicit policies, posted, with telephone number(s), for reporting suspected or perceived abuse. If involving a child, Child Protective Services, CASA, or the police department (many have a “crimes against children” officer or officers). If a non-senior adult, the police. If a senior adult, the adult protective services office (usually a part of the same department as CPS). Multiple reports should be encouraged, as opposed to making one possibly inadequate report. DO NOT RELY ON THE VICTIM TO REPORT!

    5. Background checks for all employees. Background checks for volunteers working with children and youth. Background checks for all security personnel, whether volunteer or paid.

    6. No easy forgiveness. If a person has displayed inappropriate behavior in the past that is shown to be abusive, do not restore them to a position to abuse again, regardless of how heartfelt their confession and repentance seems to be. Once is more than enough for a life-time of constraint. Easy restoration puts the entire church entity at risk of losing insurance coverage, which also may mean bankruptcy for the church and losing its facilities.

    7. If your church accepts registered sex offenders to attend, post a policy requiring them to identify themselves to the ushers or other designated and clearly visible party. Require them to be accompanied by a designated member or members of the church at all times when in the facility or at church events.

    8. Make frequent (monthly?) announcements in services that if anyone is dealing with sexual abuse whether in or outside the church, to please contact designated persons for assistance (have both genders designated). That person should be trained in their responsibilities and limits and proper procedures to follow. Victims may be seeking counseling, and should be referred to a trained professional counselor. If possible, the church should help to defray the cost of such counseling for members and their children, particularly if the abuse occurred within the church community.


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    dee and deb

    Wow – thanks for those B.A.C.A. videos…

    These folks are awesome…
    I’m gonna have to repents about Bikers…
    They makes me want to go buys a Big Cycle…
    So I can rides with them and stands-up for the kids…
    These big guys shed some tears and I shed some tears…

    Lot’s more video’s on you tube…


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Serious question based on this post: are any TWW readers comfortable trusting their children to a SBC nursery?

    It’s not just SBC, but anywhere you leave your child. The parent should make sure that ALL precautions have been taken. Ask to see the organizations policies. The policies should cover anyone working with children in any way, including every pastor, elder and staff – paid or not. No one should process themselves and at least two people (not staff, paid or not) should be part of the processing.


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    @ Bridget:

    I see An Attorney has the full list 🙂


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    If anyone felt I was downplaying the degree of abuse in society today I am very sorry.

    Words don’t cut it, buddy. Until you show real interest in what is REALLY going on in society, you come across as the average celebrity pastor with his head in the sand.

    I don’t feel a need to apologize.

    Abuse survivors DO NOT feel safe in church. PERIOD.

    Until you make an effort to join with support mechanisms in your community you are just as bad and CJ and co.

    I don’t care anymore about the feelings of people like you.

    Isolation to the cries of the abused reveals holes in anyone’s theology, no matter how kind that person either thinks he is, or no matter how much his family adores him.

    Until you make this a priority in your ministry, you run the risk of hurting many many people.

    I know you are just reflecting the blatant ignorance of most churches, but I hope this post helps you to open your eyes to the fields that are white around you.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    PS Did you read my previous post that mentioned the stats among the Afro-American community?

    Sounds like your church is for whites only. Oh well, those crazy non-whites just cause problems, and you don’t welcome them, right?

    Sunday is STILL the most racially segregated day of the week.

    Like Bridget said so well, please don’t try to help any of us survivors until you get a serious heart operation and actually care about people.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested.

    Why? By stating this, you appear to be placing doctrine above individuals.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Not to down play the issues of child abuse, but, unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse. Someone else posted the SBC’s policies about addressing the issue and I think that is a fine way to address it. As I mentioned, no kids left alone with adults, don’t ignore potential areas of abuse. And after that I don’t know how much more there is to say.

    There is much more to say about it. One in four women and one in ten men have experienced sexual abuse. Theologically speaking – what do they hear when the Protestant church teaches about God’s sovereignty, providence, omniscience? How does an abused four, six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, sixteen year-old, adults process what they hear? What do pastors say? Should they, or any teachers, be saying anything that makes God seem like He’s just fine with some people being abused or with some people sinning? I have heard pastors say the most awful things with not a thought about how that might sound to some people. I have had to turn to people and say that God is not like that at all. I don’t agree with the Pastor on that. I’ve seen pastors excuse their own sin and make statements such as, “Well, God has brought us to where we are,” as if God caused him (allowed him) to sin (not abuse) so that we can all be where we are together walking this out. I am not making this up. Maybe 99% of pastors/teachers shouldn’t be pastor/teachers.


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    @ An Attorney:

    Sounds like you handled some of this before.

    Parallel question, but I would like to hear your opinion. What do you think about abandoning SS altogether, and maybe some of the youth programs? I know some of the “control oriented” groups do that, but I wonder if it would not work for the rest of us. It has been my experience that very little actual education goes on in SS. A little memorizing and some stories often poorly or inaccurately or incompletely told, and a slice of socializing, but that is about it. I wonder if that is worth all it takes to keep it safe while protecting both children and staff and volunteers.

    And another thing. With SS we are usually talking about relative small groups with two at most adults because of narrow age limitations in SS. Meanwhile, some church programs for kids (like AWANA and such) are in the gym with a large number of kids and multiple adults. Is there a significant difference in the degree of safety based on group size and structure?

    And lastly, because I would like to hear your opinion on this, if you had young children and/or adolescents, what sort of situation would you prefer for your kids?


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    Bridget wrote:

    Maybe 99% of pastors/teachers shouldn’t be pastor/teachers.

    Amen.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Ever heard of the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism?
    MILLIONS of One True New Testament Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates and Lukewarms.

    I call dibs on The People’s Front of Judea.

    Oh – sorry, did that yesterday. Must be the wine talking…


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    I think my point was poorly put and I offended many…

    Feeling wrongfully judged, eh??? Feeling attacked for almost no provocation?? Feeling shamed for just saying something rather innocent, and completely accepted in your world? Bewildered about how to be accepted in a community where the rules seem to change instantly?

    Welcome to my world. I revealed some discomfort from attending a conference that centered on protecting children from sexual abuse predators in the church. Granted, the place where I revealed it was the LAST place to do so – the purpose of the board where I posted is just to provide news about a particular denomination that is in the middle of the largest sexual abuse lawsuit involving multiple churches, it is dominated by suburban white people, it is dominated by people who love to debate current theological issues. I get that.

    However, it revealed a great deal of isolation between actual survivors and people who say that they support survivors.

    People made 3 hurtful assumptions about me:

    1. I am in a super amount of denial of my need for help from Christian counselors, especially a certain celebrity one (Nope, I had been to 20+ years of Christian counseling, with no real help or understanding of my issues

    2. That I had attended the conference just to get healed instantly.

    3. That I had attended the conference to get free counseling.

    None of the above was true.

    Rather than engage in a real dialogue with those kind, normally compassionate people, I just threw in the towel.

    Your culture, pastor Adam, encourages that behavior – for people to shoot first and ask questions later.

    When you are ready, I would be interested to hear how it feels from your end to be judged from making a few comments from personal experience.


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    NJ wrote:

    Just so nobody misses this…
    TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly. They split a few years ago because the PCA was not patriarchal enough for them.

    Thanks for the correction, NJ. Am somewhat relieved to hear of the Bayly’s parting from the PCA to pursue their own phallocratic cult, oops, I mean microdenomination.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    When I say that I haven’t worked in a ministry that has had to “deal” with this issue, I meant that it hadn’t happened WITHIN our ministry.

    That you’re aware of.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    The policies that I have operated under and implemented personally are; 1) Background checks for anyone serving with minors, 2) No adult ever alone(one on one) with a child that is not their own. 3) At least 2 people working together with kids.
    This does not mean that abuse doesn’t happen outside of the umbrella of our ministry, it just eliminates the chances of it happening as a part of the ministry.

    The DOJ statistics show that only 10% of offenders will ever encounter the criminal justice system. Current studies put this number at 4%. So, while absolutely necessary, background checks will not catch possibly 95% of offenders.

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

    It takes more than a “few simple protocols.” Even then, you can only claim to be reducing the risks, not eliminating abuse.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Must be the wine talking…

    Cool!! Hope it was good wine…Do you prefer red or white? Thank you for the comic relief!

    I will call dibs on ‘Judean People’s Front’, then. I admit it, I cheated and looked that up on IMDB. Not taking any more chances on my less than adequate auditory memory, lol.


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    Serving in Japan,

    I think I first ran across the term ‘microdenomination’ on a reformed blog somewhere. Presbyterians are sometimes referred to as the “split Ps” because of their history of what seems like a hundred offshoots. A microdenomination is recently split group of just a handful of churches, usually with at least one charismatic leader inspiring the creation of that particular bunch. At one time I would have described Mark Driscoll’s denomination as a micro, although it’s gotten big enough that I consider Mars Hill to have morphed into (almost) a legit denomination. Micros usually have some degree of cultlike characteristics, if not being full-blown cults. Another such is Doug Wilson’s federal vision denomination of the CREC. The biggest common denominator is that nobody else in the entire Christian world is doing it quite right, or caught the latest vision, or whatever.


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    NJ wrote:

    The biggest common denominator is that nobody else in the entire Christian world is doing it quite right, or caught the latest vision, or whatever.

    from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/trivia?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu

    Brian: Excuse me. Are you the Judean People’s Front?
    Reg: F%^$ off! ‘Judean People’s Front’. We’re the People’s Front of Judea! ‘Judean People’s Front’.
    Francis: Wankers.


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    hanks for the correction, NJ. Am somewhat relieved to hear of the Bayly’s parting from the PCA to pursue their own phallocratic cult, oops, I mean microdenomination.

    LOL

    😀


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    @ Bridget:

    And it is not just sexual abuse. I know we are tailing about sexual abuse here, but that is only part of the abuse pattern dumped on children. Two of my grandchildren were abandoned at birth. They do not remember it, of course, but they know that it happened. They spent the first year of their lives in an orphanage. One was healthy at adoption, the other suffered from severe malnutrition. They know this. Then when they were ages 5 and 2 respectively their adoptive father took off and, for all intents and purposes abandoned them again. And they are Chinese. And they are adopted. Now let’s talk about marginalization at church–nobody got thrown out but nobody got “included” either. People have been far more including in the community than at the church–far more.

    And we have had to deal with “why did God let us be abandoned?” And “why did we get adopted and not the other children in the orphanage? Did God do that to them?” And the youngest, at age 8 now, said at the latest piece of (deleted) that fell into their lives, “Well, in life you just take what you get and do what you can with it. (Sister) and I know that.”

    Cry. Scream. Curse. Vomit. Fight back. Anybody who does not feel like that for abused children, however and whatever happened to them, needs to do some serious self re-evaluation.

    Do you hear me, Adam?


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    @ Nancy:

    should be “we are talking..”


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    Marie2 wrote:

    Your culture, pastor Adam, encourages that behavior – for people to shoot first and ask questions later.

    And then bask in their Righteousness.


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    @ Nancy:

    The standards that I set out work fairly well, and today, I would have more concerns about schools (public and otherwise) and extended family and neighbors, babbysitters, etc., than I would about a church that implemented the standards I set forth above.

    I have been the parent of two children who were in church from two weeks old to graduation from high school. And I worked in children’s church B.K. and E.N. (before kids and empty nesting), where my favorite position was sitting on the floor playing with the littlest ones in the group.

    And when my spouse was a youth minister, we hosted a retreat at our home and had another couple join us as chaperons, with females on one floor and males on another, with the adults in the hallway at the bottom and top of the stairs. Worked pretty well. Also had a overnight graduation party at our home where all of the kids were in the living room and two adults (parents taking shifts) awake at all times.

    I mourn the dumbing down of the curriculum from what I had when growing up. I think the people putting curriculum together for Sunday School, at all ages (adult included), have decided to avoid anything that anyone would find objectionable, so there is no meat there, because someone would object to chewing. My teenage Sunday School was very scripture based, digging into the meaning of passages, looking at concordances, etc. We learned how to study the Bible, about controversies about inspiration, etc., and we were encouraged to make up our own minds about those things (priesthood of each and every believer, DYK). Most SBCers today would be apoplectic over THAT, being into indoctrination at all levels, even seminary.

    All said, I believe in education for all ages in church, age appropriate, Bible-based, in depth.

    BTW, in the church I grew up in, the Sunday evening “Training Union” had the dumbed down curriculum replaced by our leader, a lay person with a college minor in comparative religion, with a study of different faiths. One or two weeks looking at that, having read a lot of stuff about that weeks faith group, then meeting with a minister from that faith at their place of worship if possible, for a tour and question and answer period. Great learning experience.

    So it can be a productive time for children and youth. But it takes effort. Kids and young people are worth the effort, because we are but one generation from having our faith disappear entirely or become the dominionist dream.


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    Ack! Rafiki’s T went missing. Oh well.

    The thing that bothers me the most about the Baylys is just how incredibly hateful they can be towards other Christians on their blog. I’ve never met any of them in person, so all I can know about them is on that site. Based on that, I would never trust them in any pastoral capacity, much less join a Clearnote church if it was the last church on Earth.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:
    Going back to what I said about what is covered at a conference…..I perceive a conference to be one about discussing and illumination theological/doctrinal issues about a subject. Particularly ones that are hotly contested.
    Why? By stating this, you appear to be placing doctrine above individuals.

    Purity of Ideology, Comrades.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And then bask in their Righteousness.

    OOPs. I forgot that. Thank you for adding that, of course!! Step 3 – profit and bask in righteousness!!!

    Thank you, HUG!!!


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    @ NJ:

    TIM BAYLY IS NOT IN THE PCA. Ditto for David Bayly.

    Thank God. I was starting to wonder if their presbytery was on crack because they hadn’t been forcibly expelled years ago.


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    Addendum @ NJ:

    I almost wish they’d been forcibly expelled as opposed to leaving on their own…would have attached some VERY well-deserved wacko stigma to their names.


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Was the Taliban patriarchal enough for them?

    Only if the Baylys get to be Mutaween.

    Ah, yes. The religious police/enforcers.

    Often recruited fresh out of jail, whose entrance exam is to recite the entire Holy Book from memory and whose badge of office is The Whip.


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    @ NJ: Driscoll’s Mars Hill is not a legit anything. It may be a illegitimate micro-denomination, or an illegitimate corporation masking as a church, but it is 100% scam.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    OOPs. I forgot that. Thank you for adding that, of course!! Step 3 – profit and bask in righteousness!!!
    Thank you, HUG!!!

    I’m 58 years old. I’ve run into too many Jerks in my life, and they usually fall into a similar pattern.


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    Hester wrote:

    I almost wish they’d been forcibly expelled as opposed to leaving on their own…would have attached some VERY well-deserved wacko stigma to their names.

    That’s why I said I’m “somewhat relieved” that they left the PCA … but am also horribly disappointed that they weren’t forcibly expelled. NJ is right, the hate they spew towards other Christians is so disturbing.


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    @ nmgirl:

    No wonder Texas seems to have more that its fair share of cults.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    because we are but one generation from having our faith disappear entirely or become the dominionist dream.

    Thanks for the reply. And how right you are about the one generation thing. BTW, I was also in BTU. That is what the called it before they changed the name and left off the “B.” What we had was mostly training in public speaking. It was a good experience.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I’ve run into too many Jerks in my life, and they usually fall into a similar pattern

    Yes!

    And what most well-meaning pastors like Pastor Adam don’t realize, is that their personal lack of connection with actual abuse survivors (physical, spiritual, sexual, etc) creates pathetic behavior among their parishioners.

    If anyone thinks I am being unjustly harsh on Pastor Adam, I am taking seriously a verse about not aspiring to be a teacher unless one is willing to undergo a thorough, potentially harsh judgment. Just obeyin’ mah Bible. Will find and properly cite that Scripture later.


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    Thank God for BACA! A far greater example of masculinity than Driscoll, Mahaney, Piper etc.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    …unless I am mistaken(not trying to be facetious)I don’t think anyone is arguing for biblical acceptance/defense of abuse.

    Of course no one openly supports abuse because people do actually know better than that. But scriptural arguments are repeatedly made by those who cover up or belittle abuse, or who support an abuser over the abused. They lay verses in virtual layers until the person of Christ completely disappears from the place where the abused live. Why would they do that? What is wrong in the church that this occurs again and again without demur from pastors such as yourself? That you don’t even recognize it?

    Adam Borsay wrote:

    With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

    Adequate protocols are not really as simple and few as you want to believe because pedophiles are clever and secretive, and they are attracted to church settings. But setting that aside, what do adequate protocols have to do with the rest of the church members’ lives? Members spend few hrs/wk inside the church, and it certainly is not where the majority of sin occurs, and I imagine that you preach about sin and damage that they cause each other throughout their lives.

    Moreover, if your church is functioning as Christ did, ministering to the lost and not just the righteous, it will inevitably have a higher ratio of abused people than in larger society, not lower. The abused need Christ’s love very much, they are drawn to it when they see its reality. Jesus came for such as them.

    You appear not to want to know about abuse, and either have established or discovered a church where it doesn’t appear in front of you. You have become so complacent about its non-appearance, that you announce at a blog specifically designed for protection and support of abused people that, yes, it is sad, but it doesn’t happen all that much and therefore there’s no reason to address it in a more comprehensive way.

    So I ask you, a pastor with theological training, what parts of the Bible properly address this kind of approach to destructive issues let go rampant in the church?


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    I wish I could give an answer as to why nobody called them out at all while still in the PCA. They technically did nothing I know of that would warrant investigation or discipline by their presbytery, other than having a second career spouting off in less-than-Christian ways. (You should have seen the times Tim in particular compared himself and David to men like the Old Testament prophets calling Israel to repentance.) I always got the impression that they were small potatoes anyway and were mostly ignored by the rest of the denomination, much to their annoyance. They also have no problem going after well-known men in other denominations who might hold to the ultimate heresy of 2 kingdoms theology like apparent nemesis D.G. Hart. or the somewhat popular Michael Horton. There’s all sorts of debatable issues in Christian theology where if you don’t agree with them, you’re a confirmed heretic.

    I agree that Mars Hill has at least become a cult, if not actually started out that way. Basically one self-appointed guy creating his own empire.


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    Boy Scouts of America had its own abuse scandals similar to the Catholic Church’s. Youth Protection Training is mandatory for all adults involved in BSA including non-leader parents whose children are in the program. The training has to be retaken every two years. I’ve taken the training for Cub, Boy and Venture Scouts since 1997. It’s not perfect but it helps.

    I don’t think it would be difficult to develop a comprehensive youth protection/abuse prevention program for use in churches. There are probably people right here in the TWW community who have the knowledge and expertise to create such a program! Churches must wake up to the necessity of dealing with the issue of abuse proactively. All adults in all churches should be trained, not just the leaders, teachers and nursery workers. The more trained eyes there are in the churches the harder it will be for the wolves to hide.


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    @ Nancy:

    I zeroed in on sexual abuse in the first sentence because the stats I quoted were specifically for sexual abuse. So, add in all abuse and the stats rise significantly. This only increases my belief that the topic of “abuse” should be a major topic at pastors’ conferences.

    For all you pastors out there, abused people will have a hard time hearing your Gospel message when they keep hearing that God allowed evil to happen to them for their own good, and they experience no love (that they can relate to) from churched people. But, hey, if you want things to look lovely and be hastle free, then keep on going to all your doctrine oriented conferences and enjoy.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    Hope it was good wine…Do you prefer red or white?

    The answer to that one is “yes”. Depends on the occasion and what (if anything) we’re eating with it.

    Tonight was the Co-Op’s own sparkling white – not Moet exactly (at a fifth of the price you wouldn’t expect it) but perfectly passable.


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    I think I waded into the deep end of the pool when I thought I was in the shallow…..

    My initial post was simply to say that I didn’t see the problem with a particular conference not addressing issues with abuse. Which is not the same(and sadly I was misconstrued as intending this) as saying there is no abuse and that it isn’t worth talking about and addressing period.

    When criticizing another individual/group it is essential to not conflate two issues and to infer(accidentally or not) that they are one in the same. For instance, they are hosting a conference where they want to address their theological perspective on sexuality and gender. Which is not the same as, “they are ignoring sexual abuse”. While the ignoring of sexual abuse is a valid issue to be raised and dealt with, it is not necessarily(from my reading) the issue at hand with this particular conference.

    The intention I had was to try to point out that I felt that in the context of this particular conference it wasn’t a “problem” that they didn’t have a specific session dedicated to the issues of abuse. Which has been extrapolated to be interpreted as me not caring about abuse, ignoring abuse, leading a segregated church, being insensitive to victims, etc.

    Someone asked me how it felt to be “treated” this way in the comments. To be honest, I am not offended at all. This is a deeply personal issue for many people and if my words set off an emotional response it is not the fault of the hearer that they heard that, but it is my fault for not being more wise in my phrasing/explanation. I thought I was clear, and since apparently I was not, I apologize.

    Like most issues in peoples lives, pastors and churches can only address what they do know. I am honestly not sure of what more my church could do to cause people to be more “open” with their problems. Don’t read that as we don’t do anything, but short of “sin sniffing”(as many year have rightly criticized in highly controlling churches) the best we can do is speak openly and honestly as leadership about grace, God’s love, and the Gospel while putting into practice grace and love in interaction.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    the best we can do is speak openly and honestly as leadership about grace, God’s love, and the Gospel while putting into practice grace and love in interaction.

    Ok….That’s a start…

    Can you put time into your schedule to interact with real abuse survivors, outside the context of your church?

    Can you find out your local courthouse, and invite the sheriff to do a presentation about how sexual abuse issues are handled in a criminal sense?

    Can you invite a speaker from BACA to speak at your church? (They do it for free.)

    *** Can you look into local sexual abuse survivor groups, (they are usually anonymous) and ask to attend one?

    Can you encourage a book reading club to read survivors’ stories?

    Can you have a movie night to watch movies that have depicted this issue? (Someone had posted one as a suggestion, I will look it up, but I’m sure folks here could have suggestions)

    *** – I was thinking of creating a generic anonymous email address for conversing with pastors who are serious about learning about this issue, and helping them connect with local survivors…Not sure if I have the time.

    In the meantime, you can always look up meetings that are affiliated with this group:

    http://www.siawso.org/

    Or you can just attend a local Narcotics Anonymous group, or perhaps a Sexual Addict group – those are more common these days. You can google those groups.

    Most of these groups have online chat and phone options if there is not a chapter in your area.

    Surely if you don’t have the time for this, you can just delegate it to someone else.


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    Adam Borsay,

    Have you checked out Jeff Crippen’s A Cry For Justice blog? Much of the recent stuff has been on domestic violence and divorce, but they deal with all sorts of abuse issues related to the Church.

    Another good one is Under Much Grace (I think that’s Cindy Kunsman’s).


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    NJ wrote:

    I always got the impression that they were small potatoes anyway and were mostly ignored by the rest of the denomination, much to their annoyance. They also have no problem going after well-known men in other denominations who might hold to the ultimate heresy of 2 kingdoms theology like apparent nemesis D.G. Hart. or the somewhat popular Michael Horton.

    They go after Tim Keller a lot, a PCA pastor. Frankly, I think they’re just plain jealous of Keller. And they have no taste. They were going after Carolyn Custis James during a very difficult and heart-breaking week that her brother-in-law was missing and then found dead on a major mountain climb. And yet, they don’t go after Doug Wilson with his federal vision heresy. Those female subordinationists have to stick together, dontcha know.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    This is a deeply personal issue for many people and if my words set off an emotional response it is not the fault of the hearer that they heard that, but it is my fault for not being more wise in my phrasing/explanation. I thought I was clear, and since apparently I was not, I apologize.

    Thank you for this apology, it means a great deal. I do hope that you can follow it up with concrete actions to mingle with the “hoi paloi”, the truly hurting, in your midst.

    Maybe when Dee returns from her retreat, she and Deb can brainstorm more ideas for exposure OUTSIDE the church to happen.

    Please face the reality, no matter how kind a pastor is, no matter how welcoming a church, abuse survivors will NOT initiate contact with you until they see real action, and see people venturing outside their comfort zone.

    Maybe there are ideas at netgrace.org?

    Thank you for your kind reply. I hope you can continue the conversation here, and brainstorm more ideas to connect with the real folks.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    Which has been extrapolated to be interpreted as me not caring about abuse, ignoring abuse, leading a segregated church, being insensitive to victims, etc.

    I might have been the source of most of those comments. Just trying to help you gain experience with the magnitude of the extrapolations and misunderstandings that happen to abuse survivors ALL the time in church.

    Many times I have left thinking, wow, if these people really got to know me, they would have to have their precious stereotypes shattered. Oh well.

    The large conference that I had attended, in hundreds of people, had perhaps 3 non-whites.

    Yes, it was the South. So that is expected. But is that really ok to happen in the church?

    Hopefully your church can rise above some stereotypes and do some creative thinking.

    Lawyers are a great source, too. I bet if you just look in the yellow pages under the right headers, and make a few phone calls, you can get an earful about the local need.


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    Uppity Bimbo wrote:

    Thank God for BACA! A far greater example of masculinity than Driscoll, Mahaney, Piper etc.

    I thought too that BACA’s manifesto was magnificent! It reminded me by way of loose analogy the scene in Ridley Scott’s film Kingdom of Heaven where Balian, son of Godfrey, knights the defenders of Jerusalem. Need I point to which photo-op at the beginning of Dee’s article stands in as the cowardice and perfidy of the Arch Bishop?


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    They were going after Carolyn Custis James during a very difficult and heart-breaking week that her brother-in-law was missing and then found dead on a major mountain climb.

    Leila,

    Oh, wow. I hadn’t heard about that. I’m sorry to hear it.
    Yeah, they have gone after Keller a lot for being a compromiser. Although they wouldn’t name names, I think they once took pot shots at Tenth Presbyterian in Philadelphia for not having all the children of the church in the sanctuary during the service.
    My husband recently heard about the particularization of another Clearnote church in which some delegates from the CREC showed up for that service. There is enough similarity between the Bayly and Wilson communities that I’m not surprised.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    With that being said, I still believe that following a few simple protocols can virtually eliminate abuse from happening within a church’s ministries.

    Actually, I largely agree with that one. When it comes to the abuse of children, an ounce of prevention is – surely – worth ten tons of cure. I note, and concur with, Adam’s use of the word “virtually” – it’s next door to impossible to completely eliminate abuse. But simply, for instance, requiring that no adult leader ever be alone with a child (or vulnerable adult) is a huge step in the right direction. It takes more protocols than just that, of course, but it drastically reduces the odds favouring an abuser. Bearing in mind that predators are invariably repeat offenders, he (more rarely, but sometimes, she) must organise a conspiracy to get around it.

    Simply having protocols, and taking them seriously, is another heavy blow against the predator community (and yes, research indicates that such a thing exists). It shines a light into just those dark places in which predators like to hide. By educating the passive majority, it eats into the army of complicit “yes-men” who indirectly shelter predators by refusing to believe that such things happen around here.

    These are just two, and TWW readers will be able to add numerous more – for instance, what to do in the event of a complaint. It is perfectly possible to allow innocent leaders a fair hearing without wantonly or complacently enabling or excusing predators. There are, in my personal experience, no shortage of local congregations here in Blighty (and presumably elsewhere) that have adopted these and others because they take the problem seriously.

    Another protocol exists at a higher level, and TWW itself plays a part in upholding it. That is, the calling out of popular and influential organisations who have no robust policies in place to stymie predators, other than empty and vague statements condemning child abuse. This is a difficult and slow process, of course, because a lot of people are taken in by these groups and they exist in a toxic culture. They really believe, for instance, that God cares more about their public relations than about their truthfulness, and that the “gospel” is better served by covering up and perpetuating abuse than by repenting of it.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    My initial post was simply to say that I didn’t see the problem with a particular conference not addressing issues with abuse.

    For the average pastor, I can see how this can be a confusing issue. Why should sexual abuse victims take priority over the serious encroachment against marriage that is homosexuality??? What a bunch of narcissistic pains in the rump!

    By your initial logic (2% of the population), homosexuality is not that important to cover, either, since such folks never attend good Bible-believing churches anyway.

    But seriously, “convictional kindness”????

    Hey Josh, are you still there?? Have you experienced convictional kindness before??? What the heck is that????

    from http://erlc.com/article/erlc-announces-national-conference-to-discuss-the-future-of-marriage

    The ERLC Leadership Summit will aERLC Announces National Conference to Discuss the Future of Marriage

    NASHVILLE, Tenn., April 7, 2014—The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention announced today a new national conference addressing “The Gospel, Homosexuality, and the Future of Marriage” to be held at the iconic Opryland Hotel in Nashville, Tenn., October 27-29, 2014.

    The ERLC National Conference will feature notable speakers such as Rosaria Butterfield, Sherif Girgis, J.D. Greear, Albert Mohler, Russell D. Moore, David Platt and others to equip Christians to apply the gospel to these issues with convictional kindness in their communities, their families and their churches.

    “A moral revolution surrounding sexuality and marriage is happening across America, creating new and challenging questions for Christians and churches,” said Moore, ERLC president. “The Bible presents marriage as an unchanging picture of the gospel through the union of one man and one woman. Our desire, at the ERLC, is to equip faithful Christians on the importance of looking to Scripture, not the ever-changing culture, as our guide.”


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    ok….can we step back from the polemics against adam? I don’t think he met ill will, I certainly didn’t get that impression at least. As a penn state grad, I can attest to how easy it is to initially underestimate the severity of children’s sex abuse. Jerry sandusky, despite what people might say in hindsight, was the most likeable, popular guy in state college, and of course a complete deviant because of his wolf in sheeps clothing behavior. Prior to this happening and me reading about it, I would have maybe tended to post something like adam. That being said, on the other side of that, it’s pretty fair to assume it’s happening in most every church, given the fact that something like 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 kids are abused. Time to pull the head ouf the collective sands (and yes, mohler and crew are too smart to not realize this…..I’ve effectively written them off. Either they’re so lacking in judgement or so heartless, either way they shouldn’t be sheperding people), starting with giving people the benefit of the doubt when they come with a humble post like Adams.


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    @ andrew:

    Polemics are in eye of beholder. So far he has said he was not offended.

    I have just found his entire post to be thoroughly confusing.

    If he says he was offended by my posts, I might apologize.

    So am I supposed to apologize to Penn State and its alumni for their misalignment in the press with the Sandusky scandal? Many of my friends are Penn Staters, and have been horrified by nasty Facebook comments for their affiliation with Penn State.

    I cannot comprehend anyone’s objection to this post in terms of the conference being about theological issues, so why the bother?

    I just wanted to point out the absurdity of the question that he posted – a seminar about sexuality in the church that focuses on homosexuality to the detriment of child sexual abuse victims?????

    If I was texting while driving and ran over your foot, and you screamed in pain, should I expect you to apologize to me for your screaming?


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    @ andrew:

    Adam wasn’t offended, and I was not polemic (if that is directed at me). What I shared is reality and the questions I asked are not rhetorical. They are asked with the hope of being taken seriously, especially concerning theology and treatment of outcasts in the Church.


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    Joe paterno was not convicted of any wrong doing.

    @ raswhiting:


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    NJ wrote:

    (You should have seen the times Tim in particular compared himself and David to men like the Old Testament prophets calling Israel to repentance.)

    Sounds like the guy was very full of himself.


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    Joe wrote:

    Joe paterno was not convicted of any wrong doing.
    @ raswhiting:

    That’s just because he had the good timing to die before the prosecutors got around to him. Sandusky may have been the guy who diddled the teens in the locker room and got convicted, but Joe Pa was in it up to his eyebrows, covering up and enabling.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    A few thoughts…

    I understand the initial reaction to a church leader “sitting” on the side of the accused…But what if the accused is innocent, or, you are reasonably sure they are innocent? Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare. Would not automatically assuming the accuser to be completely right before all the evidence is accounted for just as damaging as automatically assuming the accused is guilty? Not that this question answers whose “side” one should sit on, but just a general thought…

    As far as what topics are addressed at a conference…..What percentage of protestant churches deal with sexual abuse issues(of minors or otherwise). Without any actual numbers, I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.

    As a pastor and someone in ministry for a number of years that cover a number of denominations and parachurch organizations I have never once run across this issue in any form. But what I do deal with on a regular basis is the questions about homosexuality and gender issues(regardless of onces position). And if I was signing up for a conference on the Bible and Sexuality I wouldn’t even consider abuse as warranting a “session”. Not to downplay its tragic destructiveness, but, that in my experience it has been completely non-existent.

    Oh, who is blinder than a man who will not see.
    Shame on you!! Shame!! Open your eyes. It is all around you, whilst you blithely deny it from the rooftops!


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    @ Nancy:

    Nancy for many people the fundagelcial chruch is nothing but a facade. Many evangelcials in my mind have permemantly forfeitted the right to speak about pornograghy, homosexuality, gay marriage, sex out side of marriage, etc… when they consistently and constantly turn a blind eye to child sex abuse.

    It’s a joke!! The hypocrisy is sickening and laughable.


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    @ Eagle:

    Thank you, Eagle, for saying that. That has been my experience and those are my conclusions, but sometimes I think I have been too close to it to be objective. It does me good to think that there are others who think that also. This blog has been so good for me in that respect. Thanks again.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    Hey Josh, are you still there?? Have you experienced convictional kindness before??? What the heck is that????

    {snerk} I’m not sure what that is. I don’t think I’ve experienced it, but I’m sure it’s gospelliciously missional and intentionally relevant and all that jazz. Of course, nobody at my church has asked, and I haven’t told, so we’re going to need to expand the sample size to get useful answers.


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    @ NJ:

    My husband recently heard about the particularization of another Clearnote church in which some delegates from the CREC showed up for that service.

    Well that ought to be enough to discredit Doug Wilson and his people once and for all.


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    @ andrew:

    Adam made his position quite clear. What he heard back was shock, rejection of his apparent complacency, and I hope a good view of the pain and anger that attends abuse and spills over onto those that condone it or ignore it. Nothing wrong with that. And if he had presented any justification for any actual stated position, I would have been entirely willing to engage in polemic with him. That is not a four letter word. It is a recognized style of argumentation which is applicable in some cases.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    But seriously, “convictional kindness”????
    Hey Josh, are you still there?? Have you experienced convictional kindness before??? What the heck is that????

    Is the thread on Dumb Christianese/Churchy words still active?


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    I think that some people may get radicalized by the inattentiveness of the Scribes and Pharisees in that picture. Maybe certain pastors and lay people will start mirroring the actions of religious radicals who rabble roused over slavery and women's suffrage in the past. Child sexual abuse in the church is a serious problem, and the reaction of some of the esteemed clergy is to call child advocates "evil doers".  I wish I could post the picture of these pastors with the pedophiles they support on protest placards in front of their churches. For shame!


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    Thanks everyone for your feedback. I suspect that the powers that be do not realize how branding works. They are spending a lot of energy building their gospelly brand, while ignoring actions that the majority of humanity finds repulsive. I would compare this to Walmart. They have spent a lot of money on their “every day low prices” brand, but the first thing that most people think of is long lines, unfair worker conditions, and a lousy shopping experience. I believe the SBC is experiencing something similar.


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    Hester wrote:

    Addendum @ NJ:
    I almost wish they’d been forcibly expelled as opposed to leaving on their own…would have attached some VERY well-deserved wacko stigma to their names.

    Amen!


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    @ dee:

    Right on, Dee. I am at a loss as to how someone could still write what Adam has written and still hold the opinion on sexual abuse that he does, especially with all of the information before us.

    Thanks for writing the post.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    For instance, they are hosting a conference where they want to address their theological perspective on sexuality and gender. Which is not the same as, “they are ignoring sexual abuse”. While the ignoring of sexual abuse is a valid issue to be raised and dealt with, it is not necessarily(from my reading) the issue at hand with this particular conference.

    I think I understand what you’re trying to say here, Adam. You have a point, I reckon, but I’d offer some caveats to your line of thinking.

    The topic of last month’s ERLC summit was “The Gospel and Human Sexuality”, and in the words of its own PR, was going to cover (among other things) “sexual brokenness”. Many could have read that and dared to hope that the topic of sexual abuse would come up. I probably would have assumed that myself, and I would have been crushingly disappointed. After all, how does the sexual abuse of children not fall under the category of “sexual brokenness”? They should have defined that a bit better, I think.

    So, neither April’s summit nor the conference in October is going to deal with child sex abuse. Perhaps, as you say, the ERLC has deemed the subject to be “off topic” at these particular gatherings. That might be valid. The question remains: When are they going to have a conference on this subject? Everyone here has noted how prevalent this kind of crime is in modern society. If the ERLC doesn’t broach the issue of sexual abuse at a conference about sexuality, when will they? And if they never do, what does that say about their attitude?

    Your congregation seems to have some good protocols in place for preventing child abuse in ministry. I would hope that you also know what to do if you ever become aware of sexual abuse between congregants, or of similar crimes by adults. Perhaps you assume that all evangelical leaders know as well as you do, and therefore they have no need to discuss it at their conferences. If you think so, you’re wrong.

    Dee has already pointed out the incompetence of Belser in this regard, and he’s part of ERLC’s leadership. Russell Moore (another leader) is chummy with Al Mohler, who has been chummy with Philip Gunn. For me, this raises serious questions as to whether those in the ERLC have any clue at all what to do for victims of sexual abuse. Mohler has said that going straight to the authorities is the proper thing to do — but then why is he backslapping with Gunn and Mahaney?

    That’s why evangelical leaders need to talk about this. Publicly, where everyone can judge whether any safety at all can be expected in these leaders’ churches.

    Sorry to be writing this to you so late, Adam. (It’s noontime for me.) I hope you can see the connections between the dots that Dee and Deb are laying out here.


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    @ Daisy:

    Notice Barton conveniently omits a discussion of whether women should continue to have the right to vote. He’s (AFAIK) right that a husband and wife were legally considered one person historically (that one person being the husband) and that husbands were considered the heads of house, but if this arrangement = strong families, and we want to make families strong again, doesn’t it logically follow that we should reinstate the previous arrangement?

    Another thing nobody talks about is that widows were disenfranchised under this system. They were listed as heads of house on census forms, but presumably they couldn’t vote anyway. If they had only daughters, that means their household wasn’t represented at the polls at all.

    Of course this is the same guy whose organization claimed at one point that only the religious rights of monotheists were protected under the Constitution.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

    Luke 14, The Parable of the Banquet
    …22″And the slave said, ‘Master, what you commanded has been done, and still there is room.’ 23″And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, so that my house may be filled. 24’For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste of my dinner.'”


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    people have experienced some form of abuse in their life(often a long time ago).

    Yup. If the abuse happened a long time ago it does not matter now.

    NOT.


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    Hester wrote:

    Notice Barton conveniently omits a discussion of whether women should continue to have the right to vote. He’s (AFAIK) right that a husband and wife were legally considered one person historically (that one person being the husband) and that husbands were considered the heads of house, but if this arrangement = strong families, and we want to make families strong again, doesn’t it logically follow that we should reinstate the previous arrangement?

    Methinks he wants to make the argument without actually making the argument. He needs plausible deniability and all that, right?

    And with that said, I wish I could ignore David Barton. Unfortunately, too many of my ultra-right-wing acquaintances (hmm, maybe I need new friends) take him seriously, so it’s important to know what sort of nonsense he’s spewing at the moment. :-\


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    @ Daisy:

    And as an aside, I’m waiting for someone with impeccable conservative credentials (e.g. Warren Throckmorton, who has covered Barton’s other lies extensively) to pick this up. There are people in my life who need to see this, but they’d reject it out of hand from Right Wing Watch – never mind that RWW has audio of Barton himself saying it.


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    @ Adam Borsay:
    The only other thing I can think of is that 99% of pastors seem to not be interested in child sexual abuse is that people think that the abuse victims fall only into 2 categories:

    1. Those who were abused as children in the last year…..Well this doesn’t happen at our church, so let’s not worry about it……We’ve done enough to prevent it, so let’s move on to pornography, homosexuality, etc.

    2. Those who were abused very long ago – again, not my problem. This happened too long ago, the past is past.

    There still a few more categories out there….

    3. Those who were abused as children a while ago, like 5-10 years ago, but might not be acknowledging the full extent of what happened to them, and don’t have any close people that they can trust to process what happened, and get started on a healing journey.

    4. Those who were abused a fairly long time ago, and struggle to find peace about it.

    5. Those whose abuse was pre-verbal, meaning it happened before the child could speak, so the memories are spotty, and the expertise is almost non-existent. For years, people thought that memory only mattered when a child could express things with words. It will take a while for culture to catch up with what is common knowledge among survivor circles.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Most important category to consider:

    People who have been sexually abused in combination with terrible ritual abuse.

    I don’t know much about this topic, I encounter it a great deal in my circles, and there is a whole spectrum of experience. Maybe someone here can elaborate more on what this is about? Many of those people will NEVER enter a church, ever. Most of these dear souls are just not worth it to 99% of protestant pastors, in my experience. I wish I could be proven wrong, but I have not seen any indication that pastors like you care about the people outside their church.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
    “Microdenomination”? Is that some newfangled, made-up word? As if megachurch and complementarianism weren’t enough…
    Ever heard of the theoretical ultimate end state of Protestantism?
    MILLIONS of One True New Testament Churches, each with only ONE member, each denouncing all the others as Heretics and Apostates and Lukewarms.

    A man is washed up on a deserted isle, 30 years later he is rescued. he has created a full size replica of the town he lived in before being shipwrecked. his rescuers are stunned , one asks why there are two church buildings and he replies “that’s the one I don’t go to”.


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    Hester wrote:

    Another thing nobody talks about is that widows were disenfranchised under this system.

    So too are women like me who never marry.


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    @ Josh:

    Funny thing is I am very right wing and socially conservative, and I don’t always unquestioningly accept every tid bit from right-wing bashing sites, but I have no reason to doubt Right Wing Watch on this one.

    Maybe in the days to come more sites will pick that story up.


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    @ Josh:

    I’m unsure if this site is left wing or right wing (I’m too tired to sleuth around and figure it out), but there is some interesting info:
    David Barton Invents Reasons Founding Fathers Did Not Grant Women the Vote

    Here is one quote:

    In fact, before the Revolution, women COULD vote in several American colonies, according to the National Women’s History Museum.

    A woman could vote in New York if she had the permission of her husband, and propertied women could vote in Massachusetts.

    Vermont even put women on their polling lists in 1724 if they were property owners (the same requirement made of men), and women appeared on polling lists in both Massachusetts and Connecticut up until 1775, the eve of the American Revolution.

    It wasn’t until after 1776 that “states rewrote their constitutions to prevent women from voting.” But that was the exception, admittedly.

    The article also goes on to explain that other groups were excluded from voting. Depending on what region one lived in – one might have to be a free person, a land owner, or Roman Catholic to vote. If you were a Protestant in an Catholic area, you were not allowed to vote.

    The article has several other interesting points.


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    Hmm…to the question of child sex abuse within churches.

    Based on my own experience, the bulk of child sex abuse that happens within churches doesn’t actually happen with the to four walls of the building. Most predators are smarter than that. I can almost guarantee that ANY church in America has at any given moment t least one (probably more) child within their congregation who is actively being sexually abused.

    I my own case, the first instance of sexual abuse happened when I was 3 1/2 years old. As has been mentioned by others, a 2 or 3 years old has no framework to even articulate what has happened. They just know that it should not have. The, when I was 7, a different perp started and that went on for 5 years.

    Here’s the thing. I grew up in church. My father was a deacon and attended seminary. My mom was a Sunday school teacher and pianist. My grandfather was also a deacon and my uncle was a pastor. And a member of my family (none of the above mentioned) began molesting me.

    Here’s how my child’s mind ‘handled’ this.
    * First, because the abuser assured me that if I ever told, I would be in big trouble, I was terrified that someone would find out.
    * The church’s teaching on the sin’s of sex outside of marriage and how this was one of those really big ones destroyed my ability to believe that God loved me. I fully expected to be judged and tormented by an angry God for what ‘I had done’
    * Because of the above, why on earth would I feel safe telling anyone? The teaching I heard coupled with the threats of the abuser left me absolutely sure that if I ever told, I would be soooo punished.

    I spent a great deal of my childhood terrified that my horrible secret would be found out and then I would have no one who would love me any more because I had committed one of the worst possible sins. I was 9. Although from a very early age, I loved Jesus, because of all of these things, I grew to be afraid of God’s wrath. I believed I fully deserved it. In recent years, as I have finally found the strength and courage to speak about what was done to me, I have encountered those who insist that what happened to me was pre-ordained by God. Wrestling with this concept bring me to the brink of walking away from the God that was abusive. If I had not been able, through my relationship with Him, to realize that this portrayal of him was not accurate, I would have walked away from my faith – which probably would have been the end of me….

    I remember, after a rough week of working on my healing, I came to God and asked him to show me if there was anything within what happened that I needed to take responsibility for. It is risky to sure His reply, but I think it is so important in understanding victims of abuse (He does).

    “Daughter, it was not your fault that you were in the situation you were in. You did not ask for it and you did not pursue it.It came to you. It is not your fault that you didn’t have the tools, the understanding, the wisdom to comprehend what was going on and makes choices from that. All you did was survive. Thank you for surviving.”

    As other have said, the protocols you have in place are a good start. But to believe that this will magically make child sex abuse not show up in your church is, i think, naive.


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    I apologize for all the typos. It is late and I am very tired. Been up for over 20 hrs. If one of the Deebs cares to fix them, I would be much less embarrassed. 😉


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    andrew wrote:

    ok….can we step back from the polemics against adam? I don’t think he met ill will, I certainly didn’t get that impression at least. As a penn state grad, I can attest to how easy it is to initially underestimate the severity of children’s sex abuse. Jerry sandusky, despite what people might say in hindsight,

    If you meant me, yes, I know he had no ill-will, but he’s a church leader who doesn’t know what’s up and he commented at a blog who supports the abused.

    You learned after Sandusky/Paterno, but he heard about that too, and since then, there’s been a rash of news stories on sex abuse in the church.

    There are certainly a number of his congregants who’ve been abused and still suffer effects, which includes shame and silence.

    As you said, “time to pull the head out of the collective sands”. And that means Adam too, who responded openly to the criticism.

    I’m not sure why you felt the need to defend him.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    Hey Adam,

    Thanks for having the b###s to come back & keep commenting. As a professional worker with children including 15 years as a church youth worker I would plead with you to get out there & learn some of this stuff. Your position as Pastor means you are able to influence a wide range of people/environments for the good here.

    And I'm sure you'll have realised from the replies here that just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't there.

    Do you guys also not have an American equivalent of the Churches Child Protection Advisory Service (CCPAS)? Very useful.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    How I wish someone could have told you that so much earlier – it was not/never was/never could have been your fault. I am also glad you survived 🙂 Helps me push on for those who have not yet told.


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    And as to this post – the quote about knowing them by their fruit is so apposite. Who is more like Jesus – the front row guys self-congratulating at a big indulgent spiritual conference, or those in a court room giving courage to broken children?


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    “Daughter, it was not your fault that you were in the situation you were in. You did not ask for it and you did not pursue it.It came to you. It is not your fault that you didn’t have the tools, the understanding, the wisdom to comprehend what was going on and makes choices from that. All you did was survive. Thank you for surviving.”

    Oh, that’s wonderful. Surviving was a 24hr/dy job and certainly a long series of courageous acts on your part. “Thank you for surviving.” Exactly right.


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    @ Daisy:

    Thanks for the article. I should look into some of that stuff and use it on Doug.


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    @ Josh:

    1. It makes me nuts when people “point things out” about women’s right to vote. They list a million and one reasons why the U.S. has gone to the dogs since women’s suffrage, but then claim they’re not saying we should disenfranchise women. At which point I ask the same question I did above, if it’s such a big problem, why don’t you want to do anything about it? And/or why are you even bringing this up? Also it’s often based on terrible gender stereotypes – i.e., women want to be protected and provided for, so they tend to vote for candidates who support extensive welfare programs.

    2. Yeah, despite the fact that I’m really into history, I don’t usually follow Barton feuds – Throckmorton in particular has a very loud and persistent critic in his comments who gets under my skin – because they usually devolve into political fights, with all the right-wingers lined up on one side and the left-wingers on the other, which is exactly the wrong thing to do. Pointing out bad history should be a bipartisan effort. Basically, anything not unique to Barton – i.e., things he gets right (which is admittedly some stuff) – you can find repeated by reputable historians, so why read him in the first place? You can repeat the same facts with a different citation, without the s***storm or the stigma.


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    @ Hester:
    And men having the vote resulted in the 3/5 rule in the Constitution, Secession by the southern states, who then started the unCivil War, Jim Crow laws, the rape and destruction of Native American tribes, often for the sin of existing, etc. Not good reasoning to attribute all of societal or governmental failures on the right of women to vote. TOTALLY ILLOGICAL!!!


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    Matthew 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.”

    This is among the seven woes of the scribes and Pharisees. Matters haven’t changed much since the time of Jesus. And we encounter the same white washed walls we encountered 2000 years ago. They don’t care until they are scared which translates as “until it impinges into their ministry because of the bad press.” And then when they express a care, it is hard to trust them. I am referring to those lined up in that politburo picture. For shame! I pray they genuinely repent and go to that mourners bench. Anointed, they are not!


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    An Attorney wrote:

    @ Hester:
    And men having the vote resulted in the 3/5 rule in the Constitution, Secession by the southern states, who then started the unCivil War, Jim Crow laws, the rape and destruction of Native American tribes, often for the sin of existing, etc. Not good reasoning to attribute all of societal or governmental failures on the right of women to vote. TOTALLY ILLOGICAL!!!

    These kind of theonomists rant about women being leaders of any position. Queen Elizabeth the 1st shouldn’t have been Queen of England, nor should have Katherine the Great been Empress of the Russias in their schemes of things, not to mention Queen Victoria sovereign of the British Empire. They can’t touch Judith in the Bible and a Queen Ester in the Bible, though I understand a Neo reformed pastor has recently termed Esther a harlot.

    World history may have been adversely altered if these great women leaders weren’t in their position of authority. An alternative history by Keith Roberts titled Pavane points to a very bleak future if Queen Elizabeth had been assassinated by Rome. It’s like a Wonderful Life where Protestants wouldn’t exist. On a more micro scale I have worked for great male and female leaders. Women leaders were and are needed in their positions of authority.

    Women’s rights is an egalitarian argument. Some early women’s suffrage activists and abolitionists were evangelicals who based their argument that in Christ there is no male or female. I realize some churches don’t allow women the right to vote in congregations or at their national annual meetings. This is a denominational decision. I wish theonomist theorists wouldn’t try to enforcing their understanding of Divine order on everyone, including in the secular realm.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Simply having protocols, and taking them seriously, is another heavy blow against the predator community (and yes, research indicates that such a thing exists).

    I’ve no doubt that such a community exists. NAMBLA, anyone? (Ugh, what a disgusting group.)


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    Dee,

    A BIG thank you for this excellent post. While that top picture is painful to see and communicates that victims don't matter, you and Deb have consistently said they do. Thank you!


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    And considering that one in four women will be victims of sexual assault, it beggars belief that you haven’t encountered this problem before.

    Maybe nobody who has been abused/assaulted has felt comfortable talking to him about it, hence he’s never encountered it.


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    Caution: unpopular opinion follows re: Adam

    Let me say this, because one cannot at the same time protest injustice while being unjust. Adam brought up the issue of false accusations. He is correct, that does happen. We have had two large and high profile cases of that in NC in relatively recent history. It does happen, and lynch-mob thinking as happened in those two cases must not be allowed.

    We have a current situation in a local family in which there seems to be an unjust accusation of the part of an accuser (a middle aged woman) against her father, of a one time event that allegedly happened when she was a teen. The accuser, though, due to the current and very public circumstances of her life, has a lot to gain from the accusation itself, regardless of its truth or not. There is no way at this point to prove or disprove the accusation, however, with no witnesses and no physical evidence. So one of these two people is a victim, but nobody knows which one it is, and therefore there is no way that anybody can stand by the victim, whoever that may be.

    So if Adam is thinking about this sort of thing, I can understand that, and cut him some slack. I do not excuse his complacency about the whole issue of abuse, though. He should inform himself and then act appropriately and responsibly.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    I too, along with others accept your apology for the offense. Thank you. Going along with what I said before I think it is good that you come here, and even though it seems to still be offensive, even that is good because it has been bringing out even more education by commenters for you and new readers.
    I’ve been pondering as to just why though even after your apology I/we still feel disregarded by you. I believe I have it figured out. I apologize ahead of time if I offend you.
    Here goes: I cannot stand it when the comp/reformed crowd uses the phrase “the Bible clearly states or it’s biblically clear or the Bible is clear” or whatever like that when we have interpretive disagreements. But I sure feel like using that phrase on you right now because:
    It should be ABUNDTLY CLEAR to you by now that there are experts here that can help you make sure that you can do everything knowingly possible regarding this extremely important issue in your church and yet you still try to convince us that you comply. Unless you are also an auto mechanic or a doctors I would like to see how far you get arguing with your car and health providers in the same manner that you are arguing with child abuse experts.
    I suggest that a good place to start would be to inform your congregation that you do not know as much as you thought you knew and are learning some valuable information on thewartburgwatch.com. As you know, sometimes God starts setting things up for us for help that we need in the future. Maybe that is why you are reading here now.
    So, for your own sake and possible future victims you may run into in your church, please do not let us scare you away.


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    @ Nancy:

    But we are not talking about false accusations. So no, no slack!


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    Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    I’ve no doubt that such a community exists. NAMBLA, anyone? (Ugh, what a disgusting group.)

    Tried to find the end scene of “South Park: Cartman Joins NAMBLA” on YouTube, but the only bootleg of it I could find didn’t have a soundtrack. Goes like this:

    The cops are taking the NAMBLAns away, and one of them starts an impassioned speech about True Love and Don’t Judge We Were Born This Way etc etc etc.

    After every sentence, Kyle or Stan breaks in with “DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

    Rights and Sexual Orientation and True Love and Don’t Judge bla bla bla…

    “DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

    Psychobabble Intolerance Psychobabble Pity Me bla bla bla…

    “DUDE. YOU. HAVE. SEX. WITH. CHILDREN.”

    Goes on like this for five or six go-rounds.


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    @ nmgirl, Daisy, & Hester,
    Aren’t you glad that any appeal Barton has is only to a tiny sub-set of extremists in the Christian pantheon?


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    Mark wrote:

    … though I understand a Neo reformed pastor has recently termed Esther a harlot.

    Ah, yes, indeed he has. Bless ‘im.


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    BACA reminds me of the Patriot Guard Riders.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    “I understand the initial reaction to a church leader “sitting” on the side of the accused…But what if the accused is innocent, or, you are reasonably sure they are innocent? Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form, but, we also live in a society where false accusations against people with power(read money) are not completely rare.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    If one is informed on the church presided over by said church leader in photograph (SGM/Mahaney), presumptions of innocence erode fast. while it is true that everything is couched in legalize as “alleged” at present, much has long been in the realm of indisputable.

    I would hope that your comment stems from lack of information.


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    I was watching video attached to Amy Smith’s blog. I didn’t realize SNAP was protesting in front of churches. When these protests take place is there any reaction from the church members of the church being protested? I was informed by a friend who attends one of my former churches that there was a protest at this church and the pastor informed the members on Facebook not to speak to the protestors. Have any SBC pastors gotten involved in SNAP, or are they mostly circling the wagons? Hope there is some clergy support out there. These protests are a good thing.


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    @ Adam Borsay:

    I kind of see what you’re saying.

    I think, though, the main point, the overall big picture, is that child sexual abuse is being covered up or ignored by a heck of a lot of churches.

    Yet many churches keep harping on things like gender roles and homosexuality (to be fair on that one though, a lot of people who are pro-homosexuality also bring the topic up a lot too, arguing in favor of it, which makes some who are opposed feel they need to speak up in response).

    Maybe you have a point that a conference about consensual sexual activity should not be expected to deal with child sexual abuse, but some of the very guys on the panel in the photo above never or rarely address it at all.

    I’d also like to mention that I tire of Christian groups harping on gender roles and homosexuality. I’m a celibate, single adult with no children.

    Christians about never talk about celibacy as being a viable life option for people, or they don’t mention that people like me even exist. (I’m supposed to be married with three children to be fulfilling their idea of “biblical womanhood.”)

    It wouldn’t put these groups out to cover child sexual abuse every so often, or other topics.

    I think they need to be more concerned or outraged that children are being repeatedly targeted in or around churches or church sponsored activities-

    Rather than run about in circles with their hands in the air screaming and panicking,
    “Oh no, there is a 22 year old Christian woman somewhere in America today who doesn’t want to marry, have children, and pin recipes to Pinterest the rest of the day.”

    Their priorities seem a wee bit off mark.

    About how your church can help. Why do you have to wait for someone from your church to personally approach you before you address the subject in your church?

    Why not bring it up as a preventative measure?

    Medical doctors will tell you to eat healthy and jog every week, rather than wait until you develop diabetes, obesity, or have a heart attack before paying attention to your physical health.

    Or, maybe there are already sexual abuse victims in your church, but they feel too afraid or ashamed to bring the issue up.

    I read about a church that asked an expert on domestic/spousal abuse to guest speak at that church on Sunday morning. You could do something like that on spousal abuse and child sexual abuse or other subjects.

    Surely there is some decent published material, booklets or pamphlets, you can hand out at your church, with tips on how to handle it, should the situation arise?

    Thank you for responding to the replies you got above. Your one post generated about 23,456 smack downs. If I get that kind of heat on a forum or blog, I usually back off.


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    Eagle wrote:

    Many evangelcials in my mind have permemantly forfeitted the right to speak about pornograghy, homosexuality, gay marriage, sex out side of marriage, etc… when they consistently and constantly turn a blind eye to child sex abuse.
    It’s a joke!! The hypocrisy is sickening and laughable.

    I would also add that they don’t support people who have stayed virgins well into their 30s or older.

    (Some like Mohler, actually insult folks like me who never married and never had sex.
    But then they turn around in their blogs and conferences and complain about the high rate of promiscuity and other sexual sin among Christians (and Non Christians)??)


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Mark wrote:

    … though I understand a Neo reformed pastor has recently termed Esther a harlot.

    Ah, yes, indeed he has. Bless ‘im.

    I want to growl every time I think about that b******g ‘study'(testosterone-fuelled fantasy/hatchet job). Grrrrrrrrrrrr.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    And men having the vote resulted in the 3/5 rule in the Constitution, Secession by the southern states, who then started the unCivil War, Jim Crow laws, the rape and destruction of Native American tribes,

    This kind of reminds me of the gender complementarian debate. Some gender comps argue women should not be preachers or make big decisions in a marriage because women are supposedly more easily deceived.

    But I have seen numerous males become deceived by religious teachings, from within and with out the Christian faith, like David Koresh, Jim Jones, and the Benny Hinns of the tele evangelist world.

    Not only did these guys have male followers who ate up their false teaching, but there were males teaching the stuff.

    Being a male does not make a person immune from being deceived (or being deceptive), so I don’t see the “being more easily deceived on basis of gender” as being a reason to bar women from ministry or making decisions in a marriage.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    About a year or more ago, I found some articles about pedophiles. Some of them were interviewed. They admitted to being attracted to children, but they say they never act upon their attraction.

    I got the impression that they wanted to be applauded for not molesting children despite being heavily tempted to.

    Which makes about as much sense to my as my sister’s perpetually unemployed ex boyfriend who did next to no housework but expected my sister to cheer him on for the rare occasions he took the trash out on trash day without being asked or nagged (which was like, twice a year).

    In those particular situations – not participating in child sex abuse, and taking garbage out on garbage day – seems like what you should be doing. Why expect a gold star for being a decent human being?


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    @ Muff Potter:

    I remember reading or listening to Barton a few years ago, and he seemed okay. In the last two or three years, though, my views on him have changed.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    I will do it this evening. Thanks for sharing your painful experience.


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    @ Deb:

    Yes, Jeannette!! Thank you so much for sharing your painful experience, you rock!!


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    Daisy wrote:

    Thank you for responding to the replies you got above. Your one post generated about 23,456 smack downs. If I get that kind of heat on a forum or blog, I usually back off.

    Great points, Daisy!! Yes, Adam, thank you for coming back and replying to the posts….This is just a heads up to me that I am plenty irritated with pastors who appear to be helpless about the issue of child sexual abuse.

    I have had pastors tell me not to act helpless. Sometimes I am acting helpless, sometimes I am in serious pain without a good support system. I am working very hard on building up my support system. I am sure that the challenges I have been facing will only make me stronger.

    If anything I have said has come across as too strong, it might be good to reflect back on what pastors/most of society often say to the abused – pull up your socks
    already.

    So well, ok then, all the people who seem confused about the issue can pull up their own socks already, and contact local experts – law enforcement, lawyers, support groups, BACA chapters, SNAP, Amy Smith, anyone else who has come on here and shared various kinds of personal experiences, and has had a blog to boot.

    I just feel like the past 2-3 years of trying to interact with some non-survivors (not the ones here) has been excessive caretaking of their negative feelings. There I said it, I have finally come to grips with what my feelings are about the issue. If the majority of society inside and outside the church, ESPECIALLY Protestants, tells me they don’t have the energy to hear my story, but want to still complain about aspects of the issue, I can “run away with Sir Robin” (Monty Python reference) and live to fight another day. This just gets exhausting after a while. I had to look within to see where I was too dependent on people to do something I could do myself, perhaps some pastors out there can do that themselves.


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    Patti wrote:

    I suggest that a good place to start would be to inform your congregation that you do not know as much as you thought you knew and are learning some valuable information on thewartburgwatch.com. As you know, sometimes God starts setting things up for us for help that we need in the future. Maybe that is why you are reading here now.
    So, for your own sake and possible future victims you may run into in your church, please do not let us scare you away.

    Amen.

    So far I see my main interpretation and source of irritation from my end when I hear pastors say that they don’t have to deal with sexual abuse in their church, because there are not survivors there, it does not happen in their church, it does not happen in the immediate community, it will not ever happen due to super sound practices, etc etc.

    1. Is the pastor being self-centered, with activities that are “fun”, and avoiding the difficult chores/people? My irritation comes from a wonderful, Bible-believing pastor in college – he was my small group leader – he adamantly said that to be a pastor, someone should not over schedule. People always crop up unexpectantly with needs. I need to drastically cut back on my schedule due to multiple mental and physical issues stemming from my childhood. When a pastor says he does not have time for this, I want to say, “Really? No time? How is that being a Godly example??” No time for challenging outreach and study??? Hmmmmm….What could someone give up to super charge and energize their church?

    2. Is the pastor humble enough to take outside input, and be open to a self-perception change? A major part of my recovery has been to take in input that conflicts with my view of the world. I admit my self-perception has become quite warped, due to the abuse. It would take a great deal of humility for a pastor to admit his ignorance on the issue to his congregation, but the potential rewards are tremendous.

    3. Does the pastor have unhealed hurt that comes up, and is bothersome to hum, hurting his productivity, when this issue comes up? We have a saying in my little support group, “If you spot it you got it” – I find this issue incredibly disturbing, it brings up enormous waves of hurt to watch pastors protest, over and over, that this is not an important issue to them and their congregation. WHY???? What unhealed hurt exists in these pastor’s hearts that needs to come out into the light, so they can have the energy for this important group of people??

    When I first started recovery, hearing peoples’ stories would me reeling. I am much more at peace with my pain, and I don’t feel the instant need to fix someone, and get the person to just shut up, when I hear them speak.

    Challenge for any pastor out there -listen to at least one survivor story a week, until the need to offer the person a Kleenex and ask them to be healed instantly subsides.


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    @ Marie2:

    Comic relief from Ms. Emily Litella, if I got any of this mixed up:

    Nevermind:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0

    from http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75kupdate.phtml

    Emily Litella: What’s all this FUSS I hear… about saving Soviet jewelry? Now… what makes Soviet jewelry so special? Will it be worth more in a few years? Why… prices what they are today… ALL jewelry will be worth more! now, if I recall correctly, Mrs. Kruschev didn’t wear very much jewelry… and her husband, the Premier, didn’t even wear a watch! Not the mickey mouse watch, anyway. Why, they wouldn’t even let him into Disney Land! And now he’s DEAD!! Well, I’m infuriated! Save Soviet jewelry?! Where are we going to put it? I say keep it over THERE, with all their ballet dancers! Let them keep their own jewelry AND their own ballet dancers! As a matter of fact, why don’t get the ballet dancers to save the jewelry?! Americans have more important things to save! And electricity! And what about our fuel? Now, THAT’S important! Not jewelry!

    Chevy Chase: Miss Litella. Miss Litella.

    Emily Litella: What?!

    Chevy Chase: It’s Jewry. Jewry. Not jewelry.

    Emily Litella: It’s what?

    Chevy Chase: Soviet Jewry. The editorial was about Jewry, not jewelry.

    Emily Litella: Oh! Well, that’s very important.

    Chevy Chase: Yes.

    Emily Litella: [ she smiles ] Never mind!


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    😯
    Texas judge lightly sentences admitted rapist, says 14-year-old he assaulted not ‘the victim she claimed to be’

    Texas judge Jeanine Howard sentenced 20-year-old Sir Young to a 5-year probation after he admitted to raping a 14-year-old girl in a high school music room.
    In her decision, Howard implied the girl had been sexually promiscuous. Young had faced a maximum sentence of 20 years in jail.


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    In an unrelated note, it was a gorgeous race day, and the first time since 2006 that we had no rain on Derby Day. I missed my boxed trifecta by one horse, as Commanding Curve took second and Vicar’s in Trouble failed to show. Two of three isn’t bad though!


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    Hester wrote:

    Pointing out bad history should be a bipartisan effort.

    In Barton’s situation this is absolutely the case. For example, uber conservative Justin Taylor has lamented his blatant lying and calling it history. Frankly, I don’t believe anyone with a high school education would make it through one chapter of Barton.


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    I wanted Candy Boy to win just because I like the name. Some of those horses get the weirdest names.


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    @ Daisy:
    Only in Texas…Wow!

    The following quote was nice to hear, though….On a more positive note, I hope that this case gets a great deal of attention, and reminds people of the reality and pervasiveness of rape:
    “Prosecutors have filed a motion seeking the terms of Young’s probation be reconsidered.”


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Fair warning. A whole bunch of dweeb-y smarty pants will descend into your fair city in July of 2015.

    http://www.kentuckiana.us.mensa.org/

    Annual Gathering 2015

    It’s official! The 2015 Annual Gathering will be held in Louisville, Kentucky!


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    How much of seemingly strange behavior by churches have to do with concerns about lawsuits and the advice they receive from insurance companies. I know this is an awful thing to think but churches are businesses. For example is there is a protest outside a church, an insurance company has developed guidelines and those guidelines recommend that church members not talk to the protesters. So if SNAP protested outside my church the leadership of my church would recommend I ignore the protesters.

    http://www.brotherhoodmutual.com/index.cfm/resources/ministry-safety/article/handling-protests-at-church/

    I am an old fashioned baptist who would probably be banned from a church because I would talk to the protesters and ask the protesters “what’s up? ” I am just nice. I would give protesters water on a hot day.

    When accused pedophiles are massively supported by church people and celebrity preachers send messages of support to a troubled ministry over allegations of child sexual abuse, this pressures hidden victims and their families not to talk. But could much of this be on advice of lawyers and insurance companies? This is a terrible thought.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    In Barton’s situation this is absolutely the case. For example, uber conservative Justin Taylor has lamented his blatant lying and calling it history. Frankly, I don’t believe anyone with a high school education would make it through one chapter of Barton.

    Which is why Huckabee (one of “God’s Anointed Choice for POTUS of the Week” in the 2008 or 2012 GOP primary) said every American should be made to study Barton at gunpoint if necessary.


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    Marie2 wrote:

    Episodes are freely available….I will probably watch this later today, and find out the time ticks where those quotes come up.

    Should be at or near the end of the episode. Probably the final scene.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Mark wrote:

    … though I understand a Neo reformed pastor has recently termed Esther a harlot.

    Ah, yes, indeed he has. Bless ‘im.

    Is this Neo-REFORMED Pastor the MMA cage-fight fanboy with a buttery doughy build, kepwie-doll faux-hawk, Mickey Mouse T-shirt, and WAY too much erotic interest in both ends of the alimentary canal?


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    @ Beakerj:

    Beakerj – thank you. 🙂

    @ Patrice:
    Patrice, thank you. I think this is what a lot of people don’t really understand. It takes a ton of strength and courage just to survive! That is not even talking about the enormous effort of fighting through fear and threatening voices in our heads just to make those first few timid, tenuous squeaks of telling our story – letting the pain out.

    I understand that for most people, hearing about these kinds of stories is difficult…uncomfortable. For some, I think it is because this act against children is so horrific, they do not even want to contemplate that someone they know might do this. I think the idea scares some that they can’t spot these predators by just looking. But if they could be spotted just by how they look, then they would never be able to get away with it.

    For others, I think it touches on something within their own past that they don’t want to look at, so they pretend it is removed from their sphere.

    For others, it is just plain ignorance – they have been lucky enough to never have had to look this demon in the face, and thus think it isn’t in their vicinity.

    But the truth is, as others here have mentioned, 1 in 4 little girls will be sexually abused. 1 in 4. That means that in any given church in this country, it would be a statistical improbability that none of the children in the church were being abused.

    This problem of child sex abuse within the protestant church is a huge issue that very few want to look at. It is a more deeply entrenched and widespread problem than it ever was in the Catholic Church. I think part of the reason for this is that so many protestant churches teach some form of female submission – even ones that are not complementarian/patriarchal. It is a societal thing.

    There is also this. As a child, there are not words to describe what it can do to you mentally/emotionally when someone that you trust – that you are supposed to trust – that it is natural for you to trust – violates that trust in the most personal, intimate invasive way possible. There is no ‘recovery’ from that. The impact from that will stay with you through your whole life. You can heal the wounds, but the scars will remain and still be tender at times. What is taken from you cannot not be restored. You cannot give a child back their innocence. You cannot give them back their childhood. At the very least, you should be able to give them back some dignity and peace by treating them with respect.

    And I want to be very clear on this point: When a pastor of a self-confessed child molester (so it is not a case of him possibly being falsely accused, which is far more rare than they’re like you to believe)…when a pastor does this and the child that was violated sees her pastor take the side of her abuser, the clear messages this sends can seal her heart against God…against churches…it tells her that God is on the side of the one who hurt her. Yeah. That is not okay.

    Okay – I’ll stop now.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is this Neo-REFORMED Pastor the MMA cage-fight fanboy with a buttery doughy build, kepwie-doll faux-hawk, Mickey Mouse T-shirt, and WAY too much erotic interest in both ends of the alimentary canal?

    Marky D. has moved on.

    He was recently on “Life Today” (Christian show) about a three, four days ago. He is even bulkier, no Mickey Mouse shirt, and has a salt and pepper beard now, not much of a faux hawk.

    He’s not quite resembling a kindly old grandpa (not near old enough for that yet), but he looks like he’s trying to pass himself off as a kindly old uncle who gives his young nieces Werther’s candies.

    I read about a year ago that the make-over is intentional. He is now wearing a beard and tweed jacket with elbow patches because he feels he needs a image change to appeal to pastors.

    He no longer wants to appeal to hipster 20 somethings but to 30 year old preachers who want a preacher mentor.


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    Daisy wrote:

    He no longer wants to appeal to hipster 20 somethings but to 30 year old preachers who want a preacher mentor.

    Run! Run 30 year old preachers! Run if you want to represent Christ to this generation. Don’t let Driscoll get his hooks in you. He doesn’t know how to minister to over half the body of Christ (the womenfolk). He not only can’t minister to them, he can’t even see them straight because of his porno vision and perverted view of women. Okay, because of his perverted view of women he can’t minister to the masculine half either.

    Run Preachers! You will find no help in Driscoll. Only sorrow upon sorrow. Just ask all the people who have been thrown under the bus.


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    Daisy wrote:

    He no longer wants to appeal to hipster 20 somethings but to 30 year old preachers who want a preacher mentor.

    Awww….How sweet….


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    Marie2 wrote:

    A whole bunch of dweeb-y smarty pants will descend into your fair city in July of 2015.

    How did you know I was Mensa 🙁


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    I cant stand those tools up on the stage, I have utterly no respect for their fake “intellectualism”, “rationality” etc. They have no credibility in the real world. Good for the bikers they get it.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I assume so. His description of Esther is, so far as I know, unique to him.

    Reminds me of an acerbic theatre review somebody once wrote:

    Your play is both good and original. But the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good.


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    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    Back in 1953 I picked the winner, “Dark Star” who paid something like 20:1 I think. I knew right then that I had to walk away from it all or it would grab me. The excitement. The availability. The money. Did I mention the excitement? In envy you guys who can just enjoy and walk away. I had to stay away, that is how exciting it was for me–winning I mean.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    I always appreciate your comments because they are clear and make the necessary points.

    You wrote: “You can heal the wounds, but the scars will remain and still be tender at times. What is taken from you cannot not be restored. You cannot give a child back their innocence. You cannot give them back their childhood. At the very least, you should be able to give them back some dignity and peace by treating them with respect.”

    Yep. There’s also this thing about what we first learn. The deepest lessons are laid in childhood because they are first and learned when vulnerable: how the world is structured (the chaos/order quotient, for eg), what love is/does, what/whom we can/can’t trust, how relationships work, our own nature, value and agency.

    A lot more will be learned as one goes through life, but those first lessons are the ones to which all subsequent lessons are compared. This is true for everyone, for good and bad.

    So when those first lessons are gouges and slashes across the mind/heart, dis-ability results. When the world is first taught as chaotic and distressful, the first relationships as mean and cold, and that the child is of little/no value, dis-ability results. In order to thrive, humans need to know that they are loved and of value and that the world has some amount of order and goodness.

    For adults who have never divulged their childhood abuse, those first lessons will still bleed through everything. Those who have faced/reconciled their childhood have criss-crossed scars that frequently get in the way but at least their vitality is no longer being drained away.

    ….

    One of the best ways people can help an abused person is to give them respect for having gotten through and for still standing upright and moving along. We all need to be seen/known, and it’s esp important for those who’ve been ignored and trashed.

    Yet we often keep that from them, as if simple recognition encourages them to remain victims. But that’s illogical because the recognition is of survival, not victimhood. I suspect that those who conflate the two are actually refusing to come to terms with the reality of how awful we can be to each other.

    As Hannah Arendt wrote: “Normal men don’t know that everything is possible, refuse to believe their eyes and ears in the face of the monstrous.”


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    MENSA? Why did I not think of that? My sister is “one of them.” Arrgghhh. It is a sibling thing. You think it is sometimes hard being a smarty-pants? You should try being a sibling of such. But I am a big girl now and I can handle this. It says right here. Is there such a thing as a variant of PTSD from being a sibling of “one of them?”

    Got to go. The eight-year old is getting baptized this morning, and I have invited the whole extended clan out to Red Lobster for lunch. Big Day!


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    In other news, it would be churlish and inappropriate to fail to congratulate Manchester City, who sealed the Premiership title yesterday with an important and ultimately convincing win at Everton.

    There is an old saying that “the league doesn’t lie”. If we do manage to win both of our remaining games then City will “only” win the title on goal difference, but that in itself tells the story: their defensive consistency has been better than ours. Although in the end I believe either City or Liverpool would have been worthy champions, City it is.

    YNWA…


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Although I hope you can all appreciate that league fitba’ is a sore subject for me at the moment 🙁 🙁 I will add some more serious comments when I get back from the gym.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Thank you for sharing your painful story. Than you, as well, for articulating the thoughts that went through your mind asa little child. It helps all of us to understand .


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    @ sigh:
    Thank you for your kind comment.


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    Adam Borsay wrote:

    My initial post was simply to say that I didn’t see the problem with a particular conference not addressing issues with abuse.

    I am back from my retreat and am trying to wade through the comments chronologically so if you have addressed what I am going to say, give me a few minutes and I will catch up.

    However, your initial post post did not “simply say” that you had no problem with the conference’s silence on sex abuse. Le’s g through it again.

    dee wrote:

    Adam Borsay wrote:
    I would assume it is a miniscule amount. This is not to say that it isn’t a big deal when it happens, but to recognize that if it is an issue 99% of pastors will never have to directly address, it doesn’t make practical sense to allocate a portion of your budget(money/time) to addressing an issue.
    Adam Borsay wrote:
    And if I was signing up for a conference on the Bible and Sexuality I wouldn’t even consider abuse as warranting a “session”
    Adam Borsay wrote:
    but, that in my experience it has been completely non-existent.
    Adam Borsay wrote:
    Not to downplay the horrrors of abuse in any form,

    You mentioned the conference but you went on to discuss the nonexistence of child sex abuse in the church. There is a reason that your comment got a reaction.

    As for the conference, ERLC focuses on homosexuality but appears to adamantly refuse to discuss the issue of child sex abuse in the church. If you read our blog, we have discussed, at length, church after church after church which has poorly handled this issue, especially when it has brought to their attention.

    Homosexuality is between two consenting adults. Child sexual abuse involves one party which cannot give legal consent and due to growth and development can easily be conned into silence. We must first care and dal with the most vulnerable amongst us. But, in so doing, we might “irritate” some of our good buddies-the vaunted “gospel” leader types.

    As for background checks, they are only effective if the predator has been caught. Most have not. Also, the average pedophile has molested over 100 victims prior to apprehension. We have linked to those sources on posts that we have written on the matter.

    The other thing to remember is that pedophiles are charming and sly. That is how they get away with their diabolical acts. Church after church are shocked when the pedophile is caught. In fact, even after being caught, church members often support these sick individuals as well demonstrated by the second video.

    You cannot “virtuality eliminate” the pedophiles. You can cut down on the risks but they are still present and can worm their way through many situations. Again, we have reported on pedophiles who have easily functioned within the parameters that you have set up.

    The most dangerous thing that any church can do is to downplay the problem of child sex abuse in the church. Why? Because it makes you a target for pedophiles. They know that you do not believe that they exists since in your world pedophiles are “virtually non-existent.” In fact, many of them ware glad that sex summits focus on homosexuality. It makes their job even easier.


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    laffin wrote:

    Maybe nobody who has been abused/assaulted has felt comfortable talking to him about it, hence he’s never encountered it.

    That is an insightful comment. All of us give off vibes about our approachability. In fact, many of us Christians,by our speech and actions, come across as highly judgmental, pulling out the sin card immediately as opposed to listening to people and understanding their pain.

    I recently heard a talk by Dr John Wyatt, one of Britain’s leading neonatologists. He is also a Christian. I have heard him speak on several occasions and have found him to be an open, approachable individual. He told us that he had been place in a lock down unit in a British psychiatric hospital 10 years ago when he has a serious breakdown. As he began to recuperate, he thought his career and life was over.

    Instead, he continues to be a world class neonatologist and is in great demand as a speaker around the world. As I pondered this, I think I know why. He acknowledges his pain and wants to help others who have gone through similar brokeness. He is the type of person that you can open your heart to. He gets it unlike the contrary “we are totally depraved but still better than you” crowd.

    There are far to many pastors and “gospel” leaders out their whose lives demonstrate a moral superiority tempered by condemnation. People with pain run from them and keep their secrets buried deep inside.


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    Mark wrote:

    How much of seemingly strange behavior by churches have to do with concerns about lawsuits and the advice they receive from insurance companies.

    I have an opinion on this matter which drives some lawyers nuts. If a church truly believe that God will take care of them if they do things right, then they should act in concordance with those beliefs. They should admit their wrongdoing, apologize for it and let the chips fall where they may. If it means they get sued and have to close their doors, so be it. God will help them rebuild. Don’t pretend that we trust in God and then pay lawyers to tell us not to confess to the truth.


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    dee wrote:

    He [Dr John Wyatt] gets it unlike the contrary “we are totally depraved but still better than you” crowd.

    Not come across Dr Wyatt, but your brief account of him is encouraging… slightly off-topic, I beg to suggest a subtle but important distinction:

    1: …we are totally depraved but still better than you…
    2: …we are, in a technical sense, totally depraved but still better than you…

    I think version 2 contains the unspoken/unwritten caveats that underlie Neocal thinking. They don’t really believe they needed Jesus to DieOnTheCrossForTheirSins™, just for their theologically-defined original sin, which they don’t feel but whose existence they accept doctrinally. There must be some way to explain why someone can profess TULIP whilst still considering themselves uniquely capable of interpreting and defining scribsher to everyone else.


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    And in other news, this is a nice update (or was this covered already?) to GRACE’s investigation about sexual improprieties at Bob Jones U. Things had come to an unexpected halt, then they started up again, and it looks like more people have bravely come forward in the interim. Whoo-HOO!!

    http://netgrace.org/wp-content/uploads/Update-April-2014.pdf

    Since that time, GRACE has picked up where it had left off at the end of January and has spent the past month reviewing relevant documents recently provided by Bob Jones University and conducting final interviews. Additionally, the team has also spent time reviewing a few additional complaints received in the past month. Due to the influx of new information and the inherent scheduling challenges created by the halted process, GRACE should be able to finalize the data collection phase of this independent investigation by the end of April.


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    @ dee:

    Awesome points here, as always!! Many pastors don’t realize how proud and stubborn they appear by not adopting the humble policy of trusting God to do things HIS way.


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    @ dee:

    Awesome article!! My mid-90’s GRE score (Which I thought I had totally bombed) got me into MENSA. My husband is already a member, and cajoled me into joining. I have to say that it’s loads of fun. Pretty much a bunch of people telling dirty jokes but with bigger words. 🙂


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    @ dee:

    Do I get points for dittoing that kind comment???

    I so appreciate your forum here. I feel I am able to crystalize my thoughts by writing my half novel posts.

    Not to be continually snarky, but I had attended a MENSA conference almost 2 years ago, heard the BACA people for the first time, was utterly blown away, and posted some info about them on a board similar to this one.

    All I got in response was crickets and tumbleweeds. Maybe a few heavy deep sighs of boredom, but I am not sure.

    I guess I had needed to post those videos instead. Who knows?

    But thank you for the contrasting videos – I could NOT believe the lawyer in the 2nd video going on about how a decent man should not have to go through this. What is wrong with those people????


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    Nancy wrote:

    Is there such a thing as a variant of PTSD from being a sibling of “one of them?”

    Yes, I do believe that. Seriously. I grew up the younger sibling of a genius musician whose life story would make that Amadeus (1984) movie about Mozart being a self-centered narcissistic weirdo look like a simple Peter Pan biopic in comparison. Yes. I hear you.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086879/?ref_=nv_sr_1


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    Patrice wrote:

    One of the best ways people can help an abused person is to give them respect for having gotten through and for still standing upright and moving along. We all need to be seen/known, and it’s esp important for those who’ve been ignored and trashed.

    Yes yes yes yes yes!! AMEN!

    I’m sorry of my posts are not clear and don’t make the necessary points.

    I have said to people before, if you meet one abuse survivor, that’s it, you’ve met ONE abuse survivor. There are many variants in experience and what people find healing.

    One thing I hope to add that does not muddy things up too much – the 3 words that many abuse survivors crave much (me included) are

    I hear you

    For me, my childhood was one continual silent scream in pain of not being heard.

    Ok I think I am done for a while. Sorry to write so much, it just struck a nerve. I will try to look at that comedy central video today…but hopefully that can provide some needed comic relief.


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    @ dee:

    That’s a good view. It’s also like the Prosperity Preachers on TV who say if you send them $100 that God will send that person $1,000.

    I’ve wondered if they really believe God will support people financially they ask for “seed offerings.” Why don’t they offer to mail so many TV viewers $100 and expect God to reward them with $1,000 for every $100.

    I think it’s because they don’t really believe what they preach about seed giving, tithing, first fruit offerings, etc.


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    @ Marie2:

    That kind of reminds me of this story, which broke last week or the week before:
    55 Colleges Named in Federal Inquiry Into Handling of Sexual Assault Cases

    The colleges under investigation include Ivy League institutions like Dartmouth, Harvard and Princeton; other private universities like Boston University, the University of Chicago, Swarthmore and the University of Southern California; and public universities including Florida State, the University of Michigan, Ohio State and Penn State. The list also included less well known institutions like the West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine.


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    @ Daisy:

    Nice article!! Props to you, Ms. Daisy, you incredible news-hound!

    I LOVE this quote:

    “Using the social media site Tumblr, we uploaded photos giving voice to student reactions to laws and policies that take silence as consent,” Rory Gerberg, a Harvard graduate student who is a founder of a coalition of students to address the university’s sexual assault policy, said in an email. “The definition of consent is a core challenge in addressing campus sexual assault and the larger culture of sexism and gender-based violence that allow it to occur.”


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    dee wrote:

    He [Dr John Wyatt] gets it unlike the contrary “we are totally depraved but still better than you” crowd.

    Not come across Dr Wyatt, but your brief account of him is encouraging… slightly off-topic, I beg to suggest a subtle but important distinction:

    1: …we are totally depraved but still better than you…
    2: …we are, in a technical sense, totally depraved but still better than you…

    I think version 2 contains the unspoken/unwritten caveats that underlie Neocal thinking. They don’t really believe they needed Jesus to DieOnTheCrossForTheirSins™, just for their theologically-defined original sin, which they don’t feel but whose existence they accept doctrinally. There must be some way to explain why someone can profess TULIP whilst still considering themselves uniquely capable of interpreting and defining scribsher to everyone else.

    . . . dontchano they be elect(ed) to that status?


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    @ Bridget:
    HAHAHAHA.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Important speech by the perv (giving his sick rationale) starts around the 19 minute mark.

    Kids’ responses start around 19:37.

    Hey Nick, can you lend us your excellent auditory memory and transcribe a few quotes? 🙂 🙂 🙂

    There are a few ads to watch here and there, but for free, you can’t beat that website.


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    Corrections welcome:

    Perv: We are human. Most of us did not choose to be attracted to young boys. We were born that way. We can’t help the way we are. And if you all can’t understand that, well, then, I guess you will just have to put us away.

    Kyle or Stan: Dude. You had sex. with CHILDREN.

    Kyle or Stan: You know, we believe in equality for everybody, and tolerance and
    all that gay stuff, but dude F you… Seriously


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    Marie2 wrote:

    I’m sorry of my posts are not clear and don’t make the necessary points.

    Not at all, Marie. I’ve just been reading Jeannette’s comments over the last well, approx a year, I guess, and I’ve always appreciated her particular kind of clarity and the way she tells how it was to be a child. Making no comparison to your or others’ interesting comments here.


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    @ Patrice:
    Cool. Hahaha. I was actually thrilled to read your post that you like Jeannette’s comments, in that people who are not survivors can sometimes get their dander up a tad too quickly when I say that I truly appreciate the words of other survivors.

    Yes I believe we can all help each other, of COURSE, regardless of past experience.

    But there is something super especially healing that a survivors’ words can provide for me, no insult intended to non-survivors. 🙂


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    Ok this episode depicts the majoruty of my experiences talking with non-survivors about abuse. I go “nanners” while people just don’t get it. Not to demean racism, it deserves its own post, but this episode is a great allegory for many issues that people prefer to just ignore:

    http://beta.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s04e08-chef-goes-nanners


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    Man, I love you guys….
    After spending 30 years battling child abuse the best I can in both the schools and working with the legal system, people just do not think that sexual abuse can happen in the church, even in 2014. People just do not ” get it.” Especially the ” Protestant” church….
    This might be the best set of comments ever….


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    K.D. wrote:

    people just do not think that sexual abuse can happen in the church

    I wonder whether the phrase “in the church” is a contributing factor to the non-thinking of these non-thinkers. They hear or say it and imagine “in the church BUILDING”. So they try to prevent sexual abuse in the church building, forgetting that most of it happens elsewhere. But churches may still be involved in a variety of ways. Personally, I’ve been part of dozens of Christian groups and churches over dozens of years, and only one specific case was talked about “in church”. (Not counting adults who’ve told their story years later.) In that one case, the abuse did not happen “in the church”, and the abuser was not “in the church”. Only the victims were in the church. And because they were, it was a matter of great importance for us all. I imagine there have many other cases, in other groups, which were kept quiet. If I imagined sexual abuse was rare because of this, I’d be one of the non-thinkers with my head in the sand.


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    Patrice wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:
    I always appreciate your comments because they are clear and make the necessary points.

    Thank you.

    Yep. There’s also this thing about what we first learn. The deepest lessons are laid in childhood because they are first and learned when vulnerable: how the world is structured (the chaos/order quotient, for eg), what love is/does, what/whom we can/can’t trust, how relationships work, our own nature, value and agency.
    A lot more will be learned as one goes through life, but those first lessons are the ones to which all subsequent lessons are compared. This is true for everyone, for good and bad.

    So when those first lessons are gouges and slashes across the mind/heart, dis-ability results. When the world is first taught as chaotic and distressful, the first relationships as mean and cold, and that the child is of little/no value, dis-ability results. In order to thrive, humans need to know that they are loved and of value and that the world has some amount of order and goodness.

    Yes. This is so true. Even now, in my 50s, I still struggle with these things, even though I have learned they were wrong. They linger and whisper in my ear, trying to undermine the strength I have gained. It can be exhausting just fighting to rise to a level that others would term ‘normal.’

    It can be very difficult to articulate to someone why knowing we are of value to God is so important. A friend of mine and I kind of got wires crossed on this at one point because she couldn’t understand why it was so important to me. Finally, one day, she looked at me and said, “I get it. You don’t have that foundation of knowing that your parents love you and will always be there for you. You don’t have that as a given with them, and therefore, you don’t have it as a given with God.” Yes!

    I have struggled to understand what love really is. One of the effects of the childhood I had, especially with it being couched in the framework of religion, is that I do not know what to expect from ‘love.’ The concept of “God loves me” is fine in theory, but what does it mean in practice? The twisted concept of love that I grew up with suggests that love is unpredictable, capricious, conditional and might put you through horrendously difficult situations to build your ‘inner character’ and that love will not help you clean your own messes. If you screw up, you have to fix it yourself. So….that has made it terribly difficult for me to learn to trust God…..but I am learning.

    For adults who have never divulged their childhood abuse, those first lessons will still bleed through everything. Those who have faced/reconciled their childhood have criss-crossed scars that frequently get in the way but at least their vitality is no longer being drained away.

    Yes – before I finally reached the point that I could (had) to look at the abuse and own that it was real, the pain and fear and anger that were buried bled through into everything. I spent a good deal of my life in a state of constant disconnectedness. I still fight that some. Just last night, I went to do my laundry and the landlord had raised the price on the washers from $1.00 to $1.50. I understand the mechanisms involved in what happened, but I still seem helpless to stop them. It sent me into a state of fear that I fought against the rest of the evening. Unexpected change can do that….but really, and I’ve mentioned this before (I think), fear has been a constant companion my whole life. Fear of the dark. Fear of the unknown. I hadn’t realized how much it was there until recently. Every time I open the door to go out of my apartment, there is a twinge of fear. Every time I get out of my car. Every time I have to go to do laundry. It is irrational. It is not based on current or recent experience. It is visceral. And I have so internalized it from little that I didn’t even recognize that it wasn’t ‘normal’ until just recently. It is getting better in bits and pieces.

    One of the best ways people can help an abused person is to give them respect for having gotten through and for still standing upright and moving along. We all need to be seen/known, and it’s esp important for those who’ve been ignored and trashed.
    Yet we often keep that from them, as if simple recognition encourages them to remain victims. But that’s illogical because the recognition is of survival, not victimhood. I suspect that those who conflate the two are actually refusing to come to terms with the reality of how awful we can be to each other.
    As Hannah Arendt wrote: “Normal men don’t know that everything is possible, refuse to believe their eyes and ears in the face of the monstrous.”

    YES!!! This is so good. Thank you. To recognize that someone survived and applaud that – give that respect and dignity. One of the first things every therapist and counselor I’ve seen (I saw several as it took a bit to find the right fit) says is, “You are a walking miracle.” My last therapist went on to say, “the fact that you endured what you did as a child and still graduated from high school, let alone went on to college, is remarkable and rare.” I’m not sure how rare it is, hearing that stories of others here. Although maybe the other survivors here are all of that rare breed. 😉

    But I think it requires a willingness to really think about what the survivor is telling you and trying to imagine what your life would be like if you walked through what they walked through…to be able to begin to comprehend what it means that they actually survived.


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    @ Patrice:
    I have a rather long comment back to you in moderation…. 😉


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Looking forward to your comment, lol. I love that I get to hear other survivors talk via this anonymous resource. Thank you Deebs for providing it. 🙂

    And PS I am sorry if the word recovery is offensive to some. I first thought I needed help when I realized I had grown up in an alcoholic home. The support group I went to talked about recovery a whole lot, and the phrase kind of stuck.

    I did have a stump the counselor moment when I asked one of my well-meaning, super kind Christian counselors if I could ever be completely healed of my childhood. She deferred that question to “next time”, which meant indefinitely. 🙂 Very tough issues to talk about.


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       __

    Neo-Calvinism Church Leaders Speak: “May The Pedophile Be With Us?”

    hmmm…

      Is that what their silence and their support for pastors who harbor and cover-up the mis-deeds of church pedophiles and the abuse suffered by their many victims, speaks?

    What?

    Protecting The Religious Name Brand (TM)? All in a days work?

    Take me to the river?

    Have the Neo-Cal’s become the biggest frauds of all?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    hum, hum…♪♫ ♩ ♬ “…I don’t know why I support the Neo-Cal’s like I do?
    All the ugly changes they put me through,
    Take my tithe money, my free choice too,
    I haven’t seen the worst of it yet…
    I want to know that they won’t burn me,
    I may have stay’d too long…
    Take me to the river, baptize me in the water?
    Take me to their church baptismal , dip me in the water?
    Washing me down, washing me down?” (1)

    (sadface)

    …what has horribly changed in the christian church, and why?

    How can the lit’l ones be saved from the church nightmares, – when they’re asking why this abuse happens,  when Jesus died that they might “live”… 

    (tears)

    Sopy
    __
    (11) Comic relief: Talking Heads – “Take me to the River?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RHZEzVUBPk
    Al L. Green, Mabon Hodges song lyrics writers –  “Take Me To The River” lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group; Adapted lyrics above reflect parody use, all rights reserved;  U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement unintended. 

    Inspirational relief: Natalie Grant  – ” Held ” 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP6T1bJEO6Y

    ;~)


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’ve wondered if they really believe God will support people financially they ask for “seed offerings.” Why don’t they offer to mail so many TV viewers $100 and expect God to reward them with $1,000 for every $100.

    Because The Money Must Flow only from the suckers in the pews to the ManaGawd.


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    Nancy wrote:

    MENSA? Why did I not think of that? My sister is “one of them.” Arrgghhh. It is a sibling thing. You think it is sometimes hard being a smarty-pants? You should try being a sibling of such. But I am a big girl now and I can handle this. It says right here. Is there such a thing as a variant of PTSD from being a sibling of “one of them?”

    I could probably qualify for MENSA, but after run-ins with actual MENSAns, I want no part of it. Mutual Admiration Society for Intellectual Snobs. (“MY IQ IS ONE POINT HIGHER THAN YOURS, RETARD!” and/or “Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3”.) And besides, the various fandoms (from Lit-SF to D&D to Bronies) are a LOT more interesting; you get the high IQs PLUS something other than My High IQs.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    My last therapist went on to say, “the fact that you endured what you did as a child and still graduated from high school, let alone went on to college, is remarkable and rare.” I’m not sure how rare it is, hearing that stories of others here. Although maybe the other survivors here are all of that rare breed.
    But I think it requires a willingness to really think about what the survivor is telling you and trying to imagine what your life would be like if you walked through what they walked through…to be able to begin to comprehend what it means that they actually survived.

    Very insightful comments. Ty for being here to break some stereotypes…. 🙂


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The clue is in the “Dr”, and the specialism in proctology!

    Ah, yes, the proctology thing! What every Mensanite aspires to…


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    @ Nancy:
    I can certainly understand that! It is an exciting sport. My favorite part, though, is that it is something I can still afford to take the family too. Have you priced even a baseball game recently?


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    Dee

    Regarding your comment about turning the issues over to attorneys to defend the failure to act.

    As a consultant and instructor regarding environmental management and compliance, I always worked to prevent problems to the fullest extent. Yet because life is like that, sometimes problems still occurred. Then we would work hard to remediate the problem, figure out what happened and make appropriate changes in equipment, materials, operation, training, etc. to prevent a recurrence. And we would advocate and often coordinate sitting down with victims, regulators, and the concerned public to first present an apology, detail what had happened and what the facility was doing to remediate the particular incident and avoid/prevent future incidents. Then we would negotiate, in good faith, reparations. As a long time mediator, that was where I played a critical role.

    As an attorney, I also take the same tack to the extent possible. Churches need to work to reduce the risk. One part of that is to admit that it is a large problem, that pedophiles like to target churches, that every church in all likelihood has had a pedophile in the congregation, and that steps must be taken NOW to reduce the risk to the children of the congregation. One of those steps is to evaluate whether the teaching of the church mitigates against children being able to stand up to a pedophile and report grooming or abusive behavior. As Jeanette has pointed out, the teaching in many churches supports the actions of pedophiles rather than the pool of potential victims. NO THEOLOGY IS CHRISTIAN (AS IN BASED IN THE LIFE AND TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST) IF IT FACILITATES HARM TO CHILDREN, OR IF IT EXACERBATES THE HARM THEY HAVE ALREADY SUFFERED AND FROM WHICH THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER!!

    The church must also make appropriate changes in facilities, policies, procedures, and perhaps personnel, such as those suggested above. But none of that will be 100% effective, unless the theology taught supports victims and not perpetrators or potential perpetrators.

    And any pastor worthy of a pulpit needs to be educated, knowledgeable, proactive, etc., etc. on this issue. IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN homosexuality, adultery, new buildings, tithing, etc., etc. None of those involve innocent victims that Jesus taught us to protect and support as a specific group or class of people.

    And that is why the SBC ERLC sponsored event is a travesty. Because it focused on the issue du jour in SBC life and not on the issue that should, before now, have become front and center in the church world. Regardless of which pastor or church leader loses stature and status because of it; those losses are their on bleep fault for not doing the thing Jesus taught.

    Other s


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    @ An Attorney:

    Thank you! All of this stuff makes me embarrassed to call myself a a Southern Baptist. I don’t know enough at what is happening at Bob Jones, a separatist IFB institution, but they appear to be behaving more honorably than SBC leadership regarding this issue. This is my perception and I am going to do some more reading on the topic.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Just last night, I went to do my laundry and the landlord had raised the price on the washers from $1.00 to $1.50. I understand the mechanisms involved in what happened, but I still seem helpless to stop them. It sent me into a state of fear that I fought against the rest of the evening.

    Yes, I too will get paralyzed by small things that change or break down…I hate that! I am often fine with bigger problems but the little stuff does me in. I think it’s because I don’t really believe the world is a stable/predictable place. I used to have a t-shirt that said “Obey gravity. It’s the law” to remind myself that there’s actually a lot that stays consistent. I’m sorry, Jeannette, it is what it is and all that, but dang.

    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    it requires a willingness to really think about what the survivor is telling you and trying to imagine what your life would be like if you walked through what they walked through…to be able to begin to comprehend what it means that they actually survived.

    I suspect the thing that stops most people’s empathy is that they just can’t believe that humans could do that much evil. It’s too frightening. IMO.


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    Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    Have you priced even a baseball game recently?

    It does make one wonder if even our American obsession with sports will succumb to the same fate as the Dutch tulip bubble did in the 17th cent. When the owners have priced themselves out of the reach of the proles, what then?


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    Patrice wrote:

    I think it’s because I don’t really believe the world is a stable/predictable place.

    Yes, this is the crux of it, I think. And thank you. It faded as the laundry finished. It nearly always fades. As you said, it is what it is, but dang, it can be exhausting. Contributed to waking up with a headache today. But, this, too, will pass.

    Patrice wrote:

    I suspect the thing that stops most people’s empathy is that they just can’t believe that humans could do that much evil. It’s too frightening. IMO.

    Yeah, I think it is too hard – I often hesitate to tell my story for fear of causing pain. I remember the look of horror that crossed my first counselor’s face when I told just a few basics, not even details. Yeah – time for a new counselor.

    I think you’re right, though and I think that fear of believing that such evil exists within their midst is what makes them not want to believe that victims who do speak out. I try to cut them slack on that – when evil of that nature is outside your realm of experience, the comprehension does not come without a price. But….I can’t allow that to silence me, either…..it is an interesting dance.


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    K.D. wrote:

    After spending 30 years battling child abuse the best I can in both the schools and working with the legal system, people just do not think that sexual abuse can happen in the church, even in 2014. People just do not ” get it.” Especially the ” Protestant” church….

    I think I put a link in a much older thread on this blog to a site by a Christian guy who is a retired police officer. I can’t remember his name or the site.

    This retired police officer now works, IIRC, as a safety consultant for churches.

    He has found dead bodies in and around church properties, some of these were murder victims, some were suicides. He told the story of a young lady who invited a 50 year old guy to her church, and he ran her over with her car in the church parking lot (he did it on purpose).

    He says a lot of Christians falsely believe that God will specially protect them when they are in or around a church building.

    A lot of Christians are also dense about domestic violence.

    That domestic violence expert guest speaker I wrote of above? In the same article, he said despite the fact he made it abundantly clear during his Sunday morning speech / educational lecture to the church congregation that a woman is never, ever to blame for being abused, that when he gave a quiz at the end, he was very disappointed that the lesson did not sink in.

    He said he gave them scenarios at the end to quiz what they had learned. In one, he gave some example like, “What if a wife accidentally burns her husband’s dinner, and he gets angry as a result and beats her up for this, is that okay?” – sad to say many in the audience thought it was okay.

    He ran through other scenarios, and the congregants kept saying, “The wife gave the husband a reason,” or, “if only she had not raised her voice or done thus- and- so, he would not have had a reason to hit her.”

    The guy said he had to go back and re-explain all over again to the audience that what the wife did or did not do in each example was irrelevant, that nothing gives a man a right to abuse his wife.

    Church people just don’t get this, either. They want to blame a domestic violence victim for being abused.


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    One of my comments above is in moderation.

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Sometimes really book smart people can have no street smarts, or no people smarts. My brother is like that.

    Did you ever see the Pinky and Brain cartoon program where Brain goes on a quiz show like Jeopardy?

    Brain aces all the intellectual categories but when the host springs common trivia on him, or pop culture references, he goes totally blank, but his friend (Pinky) who isn’t very bright, IIRC, knows the answers to those.

    And Pinky spent the first half of the cartoon telling Brain to brush up on his pop culture and stuff, but Brain though it beneath him, so he didn’t bother.


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    @ Marie2:
    I’m glad my comments help and I am glad you are here to add to the conversation.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    Because [the SBC/ELRC-sponsored event] focused on the issue du jour in SBC life and not on the issue that should, before now, have become front and center in the church world.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Oops – I hit Post Comment before I’d actually written any comment. Apologies: I have now finished my coffee and may therefore be in a fit state to contribute to this august community.

    Anyway: safe in the knowledge that us Brits have TWW to ourselves at this time of day, I shall continue my response to An Attorney’s excellent observations. I can’t help but feel that, more generally, we (the Church at large) have focused on our pet issues du jour in public life for a long time now. It’s as though we like to present ourselves as Speaking For God, who can’t be seen or heard, but we don’t like to speak out on behalf of those whom God himself gravitated to when he walked this planet as one of us.

    Paul warned of an end-time phenomenon which he described thus: the love of many people will grow cold. ISTM that this is what the church has cultivated: a cold love. Rather than love Jesus himself, and work alongside him at his Father’s business, we love to trade “facts” about him. How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    You said:”How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?”

    IMO these leaders fear the Holy Spirit working in individual believer’s lives. They have turned themselves into gods.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?

    I know how. It is because people believe what they want to believe. And they disbelieve what they want to disbelieve. And the “believers” and the “unbelievers” can each hurl that as an accusation against the other, and therein is a genuine old-west draw down. The thing is, why does one person find it impelling to believe one thing and another person find it impelling to believe something else?

    In my admittedly simplistic and biased opinion there are several variables which can be identified. (Just as there are in the question as to why people can ignore child sex abuse and such.) In the case at hand, if one comfortably oozes into the mud wallow of what they actually do believe about “Jesus is alive” or about “the least of these” then one can safely protect oneself from having to actually deal with “the least of these” (which can get messy) and protect oneself from having to actually deal with Jesus (which is always life-changing.) They love the world. Their world and their place in their world, as in the word “prominent” that you used. A little one on one eyeball to eyeball with Jesus would radically change that, and they “believe” enough to know that, and they don’t want to change or have their world change or give up their power and influence and prominence. The praise of men is an addictive intoxicant.

    And in the case of the seemingly exclusive focus on the sociopolitical issues of the day, as they see them, there are advantages to that focus. It is easy to make a speech or write a book and profitable to hold a conference and thrilling to grant an interview as compared to getting oneself messy with the least of these. Who wants p&v on their white coat anyhow. It keeps them in the public eye so that their “prominence” expands. Where your treasure is that is where your heart is. Back to the original idea of loving the world.


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    @ Nancy:
    Nancy:

    The word messy is certainly appropriate. Life is complicated and not simple as some of these religious leaders wish to make it.


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    @ Nancy:
    For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also

    Matthew 6:21


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    Daisy wrote:

    Sometimes really book smart people can have no street smarts, or no people smarts. My brother is like that.

    In D&D, this is called “Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3”.

    Did you ever see the Pinky and the Brain cartoon where Brain goes on a quiz show like Jeopardy?

    “NARF!”


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    Patrice wrote:

    I suspect the thing that stops most people’s empathy is that they just can’t believe that humans could do that much evil. It’s too frightening. IMO.

    “Ignorance is Bliss and I WANT EUPHORIA!”


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Yeah, I think it is too hard – I often hesitate to tell my story for fear of causing pain. I remember the look of horror that crossed my first counselor’s face when I told just a few basics, not even details. Yeah – time for a new counselor.

    I think you’re right, though and I think that fear of believing that such evil exists within their midst is what makes them not want to believe that victims who do speak out. I try to cut them slack on that – when evil of that nature is outside your realm of experience, the comprehension does not come without a price. But….I can’t allow that to silence me, either…..it is an interesting dance.

    I know this is cranky of me, but it is not my problem when people find my story horrific, frightful or incomprehensible. I had to live it, they only have to hear it.

    I haven’t told my story willy/nilly but when I have, most Christians didn’t believe it, and they were quite frank about it. I had to spend time convincing some friends, which angered me, and I would not have bothered if I hadn’t found them lovable for other reasons. And a few of them refused to be convinced and thus the friendships were lost.

    OTOH, the nonbelievers I’ve told never once disbelieved me. This fear about the capacity of evil is a particular problem for US Christians. There’s something wrong when, inside a faith based on a need for a savior, adherents have such aversion/fear.

    I think our understanding of Christ is directly proportional to our understanding of evil. In a way, every time we tell our stories, we are correcting/clarifying our religion. If people are horrified, well, yes, it is so, and what Christ had to do because of it was also horrific. If they find it painful to know how awful things can be, fine, they now have an opportunity to clarify where their pain actually comes from.

    In the end, the only people I carefully protect from my story are those whose own abusive experiences are already burdening them to capacity.


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    Patrice wrote:

    I know this is cranky of me, but it is not my problem when people find my story horrific, frightful or incomprehensible. I had to live it, they only have to hear it.

    Amen. I don’t think it is cranky of you at all to remind people of the horrors that Jesus went through to die for us, and to take on great evil that does exist in the world. Just saying.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    One part of that is to admit that it is a large problem, that pedophiles like to target churches, that every church in all likelihood has had a pedophile in the congregation, and that steps must be taken NOW to reduce the risk to the children of the congregation.

    I agree with what you wrote above, but here is why I believe it is difficult to implement. I think many people go to church to escape reality and live in kind of fantasy world for a few hours on Sunday. Church is sort of marketed that way – sing hymns, hear a spiritually uplifting sermon, get your batteries recharged so you can face another work week on Monday, everyone is polite, socialize with like minded people, etc. The last thing they want to hear is anything that disrupts their comfort zone.

    I recall a 25 something unmarried woman who went to church with her mother. I asked her how she liked the service. She said that she stopped going because some of the men in the church were hitting on her for a date, such as just the two of them going out for dinner. She said it wasn’t the single men, but it was some of the married men. She found their actions repulsive and didn’t want to socialize with them and their families after the service. Her mother was of no help. She thought her daughter may have misunderstood their intentions!!!!


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    Some find the sociopolitical topics of the day IS dealing with the least of these, the messiness of reality, and Jesus.

    We find when you live openly and in intimate contact with people, every last one of those sociopolitical issues actually DOES have victims. Most have more than one victim, and messiness happens when we choose sides who to help.

    Most folks we’ve met in theory at least oppose child abuse. Unless it happens in the womb–then it is a “choice” and the woman is the victim of some crime or bad decision. Most in theory at least oppose the sexual exploitation of children. Unless it happens in the form of children exposed to too much too soon, as in the case of parent’s living “alternative lifestyles” or having sleepovers with “adult friends” or live in boyfriends, etc. Most are against children being the victims of hunger, especially their own kids, unless it means relocating for a job, or the hard work of schooling, or plain not making babies until you can care for them.

    I hope your Sunday was at least partly spent at church, and pray you were blessed. We enjoyed a wonderful service, with good music, genuinely kind and caring people, a challenging sermon, and time with Jesus. Rich and poor, varieties of backgrounds, varieties of challenges, but still we were blessed.

    Sometimes it helps to remember the church is not a building, but the Body of Christ, and isn’t all bad.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “we (the Church at large) have focused on our pet issues du jour in public life for a long time now. It’s as though we like to present ourselves as Speaking For God, who can’t be seen or heard, but we don’t like to speak out on behalf of those whom God himself gravitated to when he walked this planet as one of us.

    …the love of many people will grow cold. ISTM that this is what the church has cultivated: a cold love. Rather than love Jesus himself, and work alongside him at his Father’s business, we love to trade “facts” about him. How is it that prominent men can boast about their belief in the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus, and yet at the same time not realise that this means Jesus is alive and speaking today, to the least of his brothers and sisters?
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    wow, nick, what a great comment.

    about love… about God’s love… and it having tangible substance to it — a true story:

    some years ago, a woman in my church died in such an expected way. she was rollerblading on the sidewalk in a neighborhood. it seems she was going faster than she wanted, and so went up someone’s sloping driveway to slow herself down. it didn’t slow her down enough and she ended up ramming into the house itself. her body hit a corner of the house, it somehow punctured her heart. the owner of the house observed it all, came out to help. he was cradling her as she was passing away. he said he could feel liquid love flowing out of her heart and up onto him as she was passing. he recounted it all at her memorial — it was so profound to him, he could barely get the words out.


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    Patrice wrote:

    f they find it painful to know how awful things can be, fine, they now have an opportunity to clarify where their pain actually comes from.

    I think this is the hardest one for people to deal with. Ultimately, much of the Church tells them that God is sovereign, which translated means that this is what God wanted/sent/allowed for me/you. Why? One, we don’t have a right to question God – end of convo. If you get any further then — two, He allows/sends/wants these things in our lives to purify us, draw us, strengthen us (you get the picture). The Church rarely, if ever, acknowledges evil people that do evil things to innocent people; the world and everything in it is not functioning as originally intended; or, in many cases I, by my own actions, have caused consequences in my life that are difficult. I believe that God functions redemptively in all of these scenarios, but I don’t for a minute believe that He causes/allows/sends evil, our own sin, and a misfunctioning world so that He can then turn around and be redemptive.


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    @ linda:
    Linda: I’m not sure at all what you were trying to say in your comment. Maybe it is just me.


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    linda wrote:

    Sometimes it helps to remember the church is not a building, but the Body of Christ, and isn’t all ba

    Ty 4 reminder! Very nice.


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    linda wrote:

    Most in theory at least oppose the sexual exploitation of children. Unless it happens in the form of children exposed to too much too soon, as in the case of parent’s living “alternative lifestyles” or having sleepovers with “adult friends” or live in boyfriends, etc. Most are against children being the victims of hunger, especially their own kids, unless it means relocating for a job, or the hard work of schooling, or plain not making babies until you can care for them.

    Right, because the knowledge that your parent is homosexual (or “homosexual”, since you’re so enamored of scare quotes) or that your parent is having nonmarital, non adulterous consensual sex is sexual exploitation. That’s not trivializing the violence and pain of actual sexual abuse at all.

    As for the second part of the quote, I could point out that most Christians are against children starving, unless it means giving money to an organization that has the audacity to hire gay people. Except it’s not most Christians and that would be a vast oversimplification. And unlike you, I don’t engage in that sort of ridiculous, sin-leveling false equivalency.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    The church must also make appropriate changes in facilities, policies, procedures, and perhaps personnel, such as those suggested above. But none of that will be 100% effective, unless the theology taught supports victims and not perpetrators or potential perpetrators.

    Well said. Christians can be odd ducks. The weirder a person, the more cool it is to “support” them when they get caught. People seem to like the testimonies of “I was once a pedophile but now I am not because of the intervention of these good people.” It is bizarre.

    Forget the kid who was harmed. That is messy and we don’t have those “glory, hallelujah” moments like when we “get a pedophile saved.” Kids getting abused in our churches, and getting ignored, shows our lack of concern for victims. It is painful and healing down’t come easily.


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    linda wrote:

    Most folks we’ve met in theory at least oppose child abuse. Unless it happens in the womb–then it is a “choice” and the woman is the victim of some crime or bad decision

    In fact, abortion has been on a sharp decline in the US. Are you saying “most” support abortion?linda wrote:

    Most in theory at least oppose the sexual exploitation of children. Unless it happens in the form of children exposed to too much too soon, as in the case of parent’s living “alternative lifestyles” or having sleepovers with “adult friends” or live in boyfriends, etc. Most are against children being the victims of hunger, especially their own kids, unless it means relocating for a job, or the hard work of schooling, or plain not making babies until you can care for them.

    In these instances , what do you mean by most?

    I am glad you went to church and you were blessed. What does that have to do with the first part of your comment? I am a bit confused. Could you please help me with the essence of your comment?


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    dee wrote:

    I am a bit confused. Could you please help me with the essence of your comment?

    Some people want to sound clever, yet they are unaware that their ‘cleverness’ gets in the way of actual communication.

    Clarity is better than cleverness. That is, if you give a rip about communication.

    (‘nother place holder comment of little to no value.)


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    burnrnorton wrote:

    I could point out that most Christians are against children starving, unless it means giving money to an organization that has the audacity to hire gay people.

    I don’t like debating the homosexual topic in and of itself, but I don’t feel that’s a fair or accurate talking point, and it’s brought up numerous times when I’ve seen this discussed.

    Christians halting funds to that one particular Christian charity does not necessarily mean that those same Christians stopped funding hungry kids altogether; perhaps they found another charity to donate to, or donated food or money to a local food bank.


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    dee wrote:

    People seem to like the testimonies of “I was once a pedophile but now I am not because of the intervention of these good people.” It is bizarre.
    Forget the kid who was harmed. That is messy and we don’t have those “glory, hallelujah” moments like when we “get a pedophile saved.”

    Myself and a few others have talked about this at Internet Monk a few times.

    A lot of Christians seem to have a preference for over the top or glamorous testimonies. People such as myself don’t seem to matter or count in this.

    I was “saved” before I was ten years old, never did drugs, didn’t sleep around, didn’t appear in dirty films. I was a straight A, somewhat nerdy kid who obeyed her teachers and parents.

    That’s not as exciting a testimony to some preachers and churches as the guy who stands up and says he used to wear black leather, ride a Harley, abuse drugs, and be in a biker gang.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I don’t for a minute believe that He causes/allows/sends evil, our own sin, and a misfunctioning world so that He can then turn around and be redemptive.

    Yeah, it’s rotten! The character/origins of evil are a perennial struggle for humans. Why does this particular group of people choose to make evil a tool in God’s hands? They think it’s the only way to assign God “Most Powerful” status, but it means that their Sovereign uses literally anything to get his way. It is “the ends justify the means” at universal scale, and they’re fine with it.

    Such ideas reveal their definition of power. Most humans agree that a willingness to get your way by any means necessary is a sign of corruption. Yet they take that corruption, attach it to God, and call it good.

    What happens to the souls of people who stand under such a god?


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    Daisy wrote:

    perhaps they found another charity to donate to, or donated food or money to a local food bank.

    Perhaps they did but they certainly didn’t say so. From my observation, they were actions done from impulse, out of rage.


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    There are several things I would like to comment on….but it will have to wait until this evening when I get off work…… 😉


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    dee wrote:

    Well said. Christians can be odd ducks.

    Words to live by!


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    I want to repeat something I said above, especially attend to the part about theology:

    Churches need to work to reduce the risk. One part of that is to admit that it is a large problem, that pedophiles like to target churches, that every church in all likelihood has had a pedophile in the congregation, and that steps must be taken NOW to reduce the risk to the children of the congregation. One of those steps is to evaluate whether the teaching of the church mitigates against children being able to stand up to a pedophile and report grooming or abusive behavior.

    As Jeanette has pointed out, the teaching in many churches supports the actions of pedophiles rather than the pool of potential victims. NO THEOLOGY IS CHRISTIAN (AS IN BASED IN THE LIFE AND TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST) IF IT FACILITATES HARM TO CHILDREN, OR IF IT EXACERBATES THE HARM THEY HAVE ALREADY SUFFERED AND FROM WHICH THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER!!

    Any pastor worthy of a pulpit needs to be educated, knowledgeable, proactive, etc., etc. on this issue. IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN homosexuality, adultery, new buildings, tithing, etc., etc. None of those involve innocent victims that Jesus taught us to protect and support as a specific group or class of people.

    And that is why the SBC ERLC sponsored event is a travesty. Because it focused on the issue du jour in SBC life and not on the issue that should, before now, have become front and center in the church world. Regardless of which pastor or church leader loses stature and status because of it; those losses are their own bleep fault for not doing the thing Jesus taught.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    When a pastor of a self-confessed child molester (so it is not a case of him possibly being falsely accused, which is far more rare than they’re like you to believe)…when a pastor does this and the child that was violated sees her pastor take the side of her abuser, the clear messages this sends can seal her heart against God…against churches…it tells her that God is on the side of the one who hurt her. Yeah. That is not okay.

    This is so true. I recently read an article over at Sarah Over the Moon (different Sarah) entitled, “When My Abuser is Welcome At the Table, I Am Not.” I highly recommend Googling it. Please note a trigger warning: rape, spiritual abuse. But that statement absolutely typifies my own feelings about my own abusers and I know many other survivors who feel that way.


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    Somebody made a statement about clarity in communication. Let me be clear in my thinking and statements here.

    I hugely object to people who talk but do nothing. People who tell the world “you ought not do that” but who do not life a finger to help the hurting. People who “blame it on God” as the easy way out and are pitiless to those they damage in the process. People who do just what Jesus objected to–make up rules, “heavy burdens”- and do not lift a finger to help lift anybody’s burdens, some of which they even endorse. People who, (we are being clear, here) think church is about liking the music and getting the whole greet and shake the hand thing to an art form as if they just loved to death everyone who comes in the door, but whose churches are as homogeneous as the Borg. People who hold up standards which can only possibly be met by the affluent middle class while pretending that such is not their target audience but claim it is all required by scripture (understood as they claim to understand it, of course.)

    This is not christianity. Whatever it is: Americanism some have called it, certainly business practice, clannishness, “cold faith” a term I got from one author, Sunday morning country club in the guise of religion, whatever–it is not christianity as christianity ought to be.


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    @ Jeannette & Patrice,
    Sometimes good novelists can have a cathartic effect on us with their writings. You both might be able to profit from Stephen King’s Rose Madder. It’s a tale of horrific abuse endured by a young woman at the hands of her cop husband and how she gets the courage to leave him and start a new life for herself in a big mid-western city. Hubby of course isn’t about to let her go quietly and he tracks her down. We cheer for her and we fear for her against a backdrop of real life that King is gifted enough to paint in both water color and oil. The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Why does this particular group of people choose to make evil a tool in God’s hands? They think it’s the only way to assign God “Most Powerful” status, but it means that their Sovereign uses literally anything to get his way. It is “the ends justify the means” at universal scale, and they’re fine with it.

    And if “The Ends Justify The Means at a universal scale”, the End Justifies the Means at a personal scale. If God wields anything-goes power over His inferiors, why not the Godly?


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    dee wrote:

    People seem to like the testimonies of “I was once a pedophile but now I am not because of the intervention of these good people.” It is bizarre.

    Not bizarre, it’s FLATTERY.

    And with those who want to Admire Their Righteousness, you can lay the flattery on with a gunnite sprayer.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

    Wonderful Muff!! Good for you!


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

    Whooo-HOOOO ty 4 sharing such wonderful news! You are an inspiration!! I would love to celebrate that many years of emotional sobriety, lol! Whatever that means…I just know I need to work hard at not getting caught up in my own stuff or that of other people’s. Detaching from myself can be a challenge, lol. 🙂 🙂 🙂


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    Patrice wrote:

    I know this is cranky of me, but it is not my problem when people find my story horrific, frightful or incomprehensible. I had to live it, they only have to hear it.

    Yes. Thank you for reminding me of this. That is not being cranky, that is honesty, which is what is needed. Sometimes, I fear, I pull back from speaking just because the emotional energy expended standing up against the barrage from those who don’t want to hear/believe it can be very draining.

    Patrice wrote:

    I haven’t told my story willy/nilly but when I have, most Christians didn’t believe it, and they were quite frank about it. I had to spend time convincing some friends, which angered me, and I would not have bothered if I hadn’t found them lovable for other reasons. And a few of them refused to be convinced and thus the friendships were lost.

    OTOH, the nonbelievers I’ve told never once disbelieved me. This fear about the capacity of evil is a particular problem for US Christians. There’s something wrong when, inside a faith based on a need for a savior, adherents have such aversion/fear.

    This has been my general experience, as well. All but one of the church people I tried to tell did not want to hear it. Thank God for that one, though, because she took me by that hand and we walked out of (were thrown out of) that sick place and over 7 years later, we are very close friends and much better than we were then.


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    Joe2 wrote:

    I agree with what you wrote above, but here is why I believe it is difficult to implement. I think many people go to church to escape reality and live in kind of fantasy world for a few hours on Sunday. Church is sort of marketed that way – sing hymns, hear a spiritually uplifting sermon, get your batteries recharged so you can face another work week on Monday, everyone is polite, socialize with like minded people, etc. The last thing they want to hear is anything that disrupts their comfort zone.

    I think this is spot on for a large majority of American Christians – at least in my experience. That is, the ones who aren’t the abusers themselves….


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    linda wrote:

    Most folks we’ve met in theory….

    This whole paragraph feels, from my end, to be attempting to minimize the topic of child sex abuse by suggesting that homosexuality and ‘living in sin’ are equal to it and just as valid to fight against.

    I would suggest that perhaps the we are not called to clean up and correct the world, especially when we refuse to clean up or own house concerning something that has as its victims those who have no voice.

    linda wrote:

    I hope your Sunday was at least partly spent at church, and pray you were blessed.

    And this sentence, even though you later mention that church has nothing to do with a building, comes across as religiously condescending. From where I have been, any sentence uttered in a religious context that starts with the words, “I hope you(r)…..” is a subtle dig that if it was not, you are out of line. I truly hope this is not what you meant, as my Sunday was not spent in church at all. It was spent at home, alone, as most Sundays are, which although I would prefer to get together with friends, Sundays rarely work for that. We get together when we can.

    linda wrote:

    Sometimes it helps to remember the church is not a building, but the Body of Christ, and isn’t all bad.

    This is very true – in fact I would say that it always helps to remember that, which does not mean that not going to a building on Sunday means you do not. 😉


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Paul warned of an end-time phenomenon which he described thus: the love of many people will grow cold. ISTM that this is what the church has cultivated: a cold love.

    Yes. This. I have heard it preached that this is talking about the love in the world growing cold (not the love in the church). But I see it more that the love of the ‘great body,’ i.e., the church, growing cold to itself – losing sight of the “know you are my disciples by your love one for another.”

    Cultivating a ‘cold love’ is a very accurate way of describing it and I will hang on to that for future reference. 😉


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    Bridget wrote:

    I think this is the hardest one for people to deal with. Ultimately, much of the Church tells them that God is sovereign, which translated means that this is what God wanted/sent/allowed for me/you. Why? One, we don’t have a right to question God – end of convo. If you get any further then — two, He allows/sends/wants these things in our lives to purify us, draw us, strengthen us (you get the picture). The Church rarely, if ever, acknowledges evil people that do evil things to innocent people; the world and everything in it is not functioning as originally intended; or, in many cases I, by my own actions, have caused consequences in my life that are difficult. I believe that God functions redemptively in all of these scenarios, but I don’t for a minute believe that He causes/allows/sends evil, our own sin, and a misfunctioning world so that He can then turn around and be redemptive.

    I think this, in my experience, is the ultimate religious ‘double-bind.’
    And as all double binds do, it makes those placed under act a little nutty.


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    dee wrote:

    Forget the kid who was harmed. That is messy and we don’t have those “glory, hallelujah” moments like when we “get a pedophile saved.” Kids getting abused in our churches, and getting ignored, shows our lack of concern for victims. It is painful and healing won’t come easily.

    This, too, is spot on in my experience. There is no photo-op moment that makes you look uber-spiritual when helping the victims. But oh, what it does for your ego to have that ‘converted,’ saved’ abuser notched on your spiritual belt.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Such ideas reveal their definition of power. Most humans agree that a willingness to get your way by any means necessary is a sign of corruption. Yet they take that corruption, attach it to God, and call it good.

    This sums up the bulk of my experiences with Calvinist – and yes, not just neo-Calvinists or Calvinistas. Sadly.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    As Jeanette has pointed out, the teaching in many churches supports the actions of pedophiles rather than the pool of potential victims. NO THEOLOGY IS CHRISTIAN (AS IN BASED IN THE LIFE AND TEACHING OF JESUS CHRIST) IF IT FACILITATES HARM TO CHILDREN, OR IF IT EXACERBATES THE HARM THEY HAVE ALREADY SUFFERED AND FROM WHICH THEY WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER!!

    Yes. This. Thank you. It bears repeating again….and again…and again….until it begins to register….


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

    WooHoo! Congrats, Muff!


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    Sara wrote:

    This is so true. I recently read an article over at Sarah Over the Moon (different Sarah) entitled, “When My Abuser is Welcome At the Table, I Am Not.” I highly recommend Googling it. Please note a trigger warning: rape, spiritual abuse. But that statement absolutely typifies my own feelings about my own abusers and I know many other survivors who feel that way.

    This is absolutely true. Especially when couched in the understanding that even if the abuser never repents, you must welcome him at the table. No. If he is there and will not even acknowledge that he hurt me, let alone repent of it, then I – the real me buried underneath the abuse (at his hand and now the religious ones’ hands as well) – am most definitely not welcome…..Sara Bessy wrote a post a while back titled “In Which I Am Done Fighting For A Seat At The Table.” It is more about gender equality, but it fits this, as well. Honestly, I do not want a seat at that religious table. They are serving poison…..


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Patrice wrote:
    I know this is cranky of me, but it is not my problem when people find my story horrific, frightful or incomprehensible. I had to live it, they only have to hear it.
    Yes. Thank you for reminding me of this. That is not being cranky, that is honesty, which is what is needed. Sometimes, I fear, I pull back from speaking just because the emotional energy expended standing up against the barrage from those who don’t want to hear/believe it can be very draining.

    Patrice and Jeannette,
    I am glad that you have told your stories. I’m sorry for the opposition that you have faced. And I think you are brave for continuing to tell people in spite of their disbelief.
    People need to know.

    When the web-site “No Longer Quivering” first started, I read the horrifying story of a woman who suffered abuse by her husband. The turning point for her was when they (her church) went to listen to former war prisoner talk about how he was mentally tortured. But his torture was not as bad as the torture she experience in her own home. Yet this former POW was held up as a hero and she was shamed for speaking against her husband and not showing the proper respect.

    Her story was difficult for me to read. But I’m glad she shared it because it opened my eyes to the hypocrisy of the church. It showed how evil can hide within the very walls of the church yet how unwilling people are to see it.

    Keep sharing places like here. Many people are reading and getting educated even though they may not know what to say. It is opening eyes.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

    First, congratulations! That is wonderful.

    On the ‘…if we let them’ part, I would caution that although who are well along in the healing process understand what this means and generally agree, those who are still at the beginning stages of healing or are still stuck in the abusive situation will probably interpret this as meaning the abuse is only happening because I let it, therefore, it is my fault. I know from where I speak having experienced this myself.

    Muff, I absolutely know this is not your meaning or intent. You have commented here long enough for that to be well known to all the regulars here. But for the sake of readers out there still in the abusive situation or just having gotten out of it, this applies down the road, after the healing has progressed a good pace….then, and only then, when you have gained strength and knowledge about what happened, will it begin to apply.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And if “The Ends Justify The Means at a universal scale”, the End Justifies the Means at a personal scale. If God wields anything-goes power over His inferiors, why not the Godly?

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Not bizarre, it’s FLATTERY.

    And with those who want to Admire Their Righteousness, you can lay the flattery on with a gunnite sprayer.

    HUG, both of these are spot on.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    There are several things I would like to comment on….but it will have to wait until this evening when I get off work…… 😉

    Told you I had a few things to say 🙂
    Am having a remarkably good few days emotionally, allowing the energy to post.


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    Mara wrote:

    Keep sharing places like here. Many people are reading and getting educated even though they may not know what to say. It is opening eyes.

    Thank you. I helps greatly to be reminded of this. 🙂


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    @ Muff Potter:

    “good novelists can have a cathartic effect on us with their writings”

    agreed. as well as music, poetry, theater, film, art, dance. but a well-written novel can go deep.

    Congratulations to you. do a tap dance in the kitchen!


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    @ elastigirl:

    Dunno about tappin’, but Madonna’s song Vogue can definitely get me movin’ on the kitchen floor… ===> (smiley face goes here)


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    The take away (for me anyway) is that bad people and demons from our past and present can only rob us of our treasure if we let them. I know of what I speak because this month I celebrate 18 years of sobriety.

    CONGRATS on 18 years!! That’s amazing! w00t


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Sometimes, I fear, I pull back from speaking just because the emotional energy expended standing up against the barrage from those who don’t want to hear/believe it can be very draining.

    I recognize you full well, oh woman who will take any thought and turn it into just a tad o’ guilt towards yourself. 😉

    If you haven’t the energy, it is not required. Totally. Is. Not. For the rest of your life. 🙂

    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    All but one of the church people I tried to tell did not want to hear it. Thank God for that one, though, because she took me by that hand and we walked out of (were thrown out of) that sick place and over 7 years later, we are very close friends and much better than we were then.

    Probably kept you alive, having someone to go with you. So good!!


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    Patrice wrote:

    I recognize you full well, oh woman who will take any thought and turn it into just a tad o’ guilt towards yourself. 😉

    If you haven’t the energy, it is not required. Totally. Is. Not. For the rest of your life. 🙂

    Yes – my first reaction was to laugh – you do see me….but that was followed by tears…not the bed kind, just those that come when you are recognized and reminded that you don’t have to…..thank you. 🙂

    Patrice wrote:

    Probably kept you alive, having someone to go with you. So good!!

    I have discussed this with her. There is no probably about it. It was on the verge of total internal shut-down. If not for what happened in that church that forced my pain to the surface and this incredible woman who, in the midst of her own pain and trauma, took my hand and walked with me (and I with her), I don’t think I would have survived. I would probably have ended up in an institution if not dead. Hmmm…and my first thought, after typing that is to want to assure other readers that I am not exaggerating….

    I’m not sure that there are words that are adequate to describe the pain of facing the sicknees that infects the soul, the body, after sexual abuse….but my friend, from her own past experience, told me that it was going to feel like every cell in my body was trying to throw up at once….graphic…and accurate.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Perhaps they did but they certainly didn’t say so. From my observation, they were actions done from impulse, out of rage.

    I don’t necessarily have a problem with people pulling funds from any org – even one that gives free sammiches – if they feel that org is not inline with some of their beliefs.


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      __

    “Predators Prey Whilst The People Pray?”

    hmmm…

    Has he “House Of Gawd” (TM) become a torrent of evil doings; a house of horrors, perhaps?

    huh?

    When guns, security guards, wall cameras, background investigations, etc… are simply not enough?

    Is the average american church becoming a privately controlled fortress where the faithful member has no voice and the pedophile is comfortably at home? 

    What now?

    The doors are shut, the helpless victim(s) prey’d upon, first by religious frauds who call themselves holy-men, then by the vultures and abusers they faithfully harbor and suckle?

    Is this perchance a pocket novel by Stephen King entitled: “Lityle House of Horrors: The Church On Main Street?” (C)

    Where a mother of two has to nervously ask herself: “Trick or Treat?” before entering?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    (bump)

    They come and stand before Him in the house which is called by His name, and these abominations abide therein?Has the house called by His name, become a den of cloaked “religious” monsters?

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    ___
    Con-tempt-able con-tem-plat-ion? : Michael Jackson – “Thriller”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuGz3wdzQgI
    Bonus?: “Dis is da house of Gawd? Please, Wake Me Up, Wake Me Up!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVRPEDOVJzk

    *

    Hope Soars: M’Angel –  “I Believe In Miracles”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNl6d1cqne8

    ;~)


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    Daisy wrote:

    I don’t necessarily have a problem with people pulling funds from any org – even one that gives free sammiches – if they feel that org is not inline with some of their beliefs.

    Well, of course, but that’s not what your comment was about.

    And free sammiches or not, pulling funds out of rage is immature, esp when other people’s sammiches are at stake.


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    Jeannette Altes wrote:

    …my friend, from her own past experience, told me that it was going to feel like every cell in my body was trying to throw up at once….graphic…and accurate.

    Yah, it goes that far down/in and it is that thorough.

    Which is why, in spite of our best efforts at healing, we will still flashback/panic over small things like an increase in washing machine coins. My brain shuts down when paying the usual bills or having to go for a semi-regular thyroid blood test. Oh how I hate that about myself! I’ve tried everything I know to try but still I short-circuit!

    Flashback/panics are not good for a person. Every time the adrenal cascade subsides, I spend a day feeling like I’m at the tailend of a flu.

    Exposure therapy can be helpful until one hits the permanent-damage wall. Now I’m looking for ways to get help with these remainders. Maybe there are some things you could get help with too?


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    Patrice wrote:

    Exposure therapy can be helpful until one hits the permanent-damage wall. Now I’m looking for ways to get help with these remainders. Maybe there are some things you could get help with too?

    Hmm…not sure what kind of help that would be beyond the therapy and cutting the damaging family members out of my life….is there something you were thinking of specifically?


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Exposure therapy slowly reintroduces the client to triggers that cause flashbacks so that over time they lose their power and the body stops being reactive. It was big for vets, I don’t know, maybe 15-20 yrs ago, but I don’t think it was all that effective and rather a horrible thing, too. It’s used for people who have phobias, such as claustrophia in elevators and the like, but that is a different disorder.

    It is true that a gentle reintroduction to life slowly decreases dissociation and the intensity/frequency of flashbacks. But at some point, comPTSD people hit a wall. They quit making progress even when keeping at it, and at that point, ISTM, a person just needs to accept that the remainder is permanent damage and learn to live with/around it, as one can.

    So I have twice monthly flashbacks over paying bills. Heaven help me if something goes a little awry! I’ve tried everything I know to avoid/avert but have not been successful. After that hour of bill-paying, the rest of my day is a distress shamble, and that’s when all goes smoothly.

    It has become a dread and my therapist finally said “enough is enough, you need help”. So I’ve just found a kind retired office manager to do them for me. I’ll see how it works but it really lifts my spirits to think I may not have to do that anymore. One feels such a fool about it, but it is what it is, I guess.

    If that works, maybe I can find someone to help me through medical/blood tests, which knock me over for several days afterwards. I hate that this is so!!!

    Anyway, knowing that you are somewhat like me, and probably haven’t considered that there might be an alternative for perpetual “soldiering on” no matter how awful you feel, hah, I thought you might consider whether there might be some help to relieve you of a few of the things that send you into emotional flashbacks.

    Leaving mothers who insist on relating to us only from within the systems that almost killed us, well that’s just common sense 🙂


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    @ Patrice:

    Ah…I understand, now. 🙂

    Exposure therapy – just the thought of it can cause distress. Ha.

    As to the ‘helps,’ I get get what you mean, now. I quit seeing my therapist about 6 months ago as we agreed that there really was nothing more she could do.

    There is an area where I have hired someone to do what I cannot/will not do myself (yeah, I know the guilt thing showing up in that statement), and that is housework. I have someone coming in once a month. It was necessary because I just reached a point where I was completely overwhelmed by it. But I fight guilt about that. I ‘should’ be able to clean my own apartment. Yes – I hear my mother’s voice in that statement. Sigh. And then my father chimes in with, ‘that is such a waste of money.’ Sigh.

    You know, I realize that doing laundry has become that to me, as well. I think it isn’t the laundry so much as having to use a communal laundry room and having to ‘risk’ running into people….a few years ago (the laundry room is right next to my apartment), I went in to do laundry late on a Saturday night and there was a homeless man sleeping under the folding table. I didn’t kick him out – it was cold outside – but I think that has played into this….and then the rates increase and it is a pebble placed on a precariously balanced stance – wobbling is a given.

    Anything that threatens the precarious balance – mental, financial….can throw me into a panic that feels so out of proportion to the situation, but, as you say, I don’t seem to have control of it. Hmm…I rarely give myself the grace of a recovery period. Never really thought about that. Hmm….

    Thank you for the dialogue – we definitely share some ‘remains.’ And yes, I still fight the sense that I am required to ‘soldier on.’ It is what is expected. It is what was always expected. Good little girls don’t complain and they don’t ask for help…. Sigh.


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    Oh please, do give yourself recovery time, if at all possible. Check it out next time it happens, see if it doesn’t feel like the backend of the flu, all limp, achy, and tending to the weepy.

    I’m so glad you have a housekeeper. Can she do laundry? It’s not that we can get rid of all the dang triggers, but to steer around the worst of them can make everything better, even to allowing us to become sturdier and less often triggered. Well, at least that’s what therapist says.

    Thanks for talking, Jeannette. It’s because of you writing about the washing machine that I called the retired office manager today. You’ve been very helpful. Much appreciated.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Check it out next time it happens, see if it doesn’t feel like the backend of the flu, all limp, achy, and tending to the weepy.

    Yes, it does, now you describe it that way….

    Patrice wrote:

    Thanks for talking, Jeannette. It’s because of you writing about the washing machine that I called the retired office manager today. You’ve been very helpful. Much appreciated.

    Patrice, thank you for talking. This statement brought tears. I am so glad that you called the office manager and that my talking helped with that. It always amazes me when that happens.

    Peace and grace to you from out here in the Great American Desert.


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    Patrice wrote:

    But at some point, comPTSD people hit a wall. They quit making progress even when keeping at it, and at that point, ISTM, a person just needs to accept that the remainder is permanent damage and learn to live with/around it, as one can.

    Very accurate PTSD insight, Patrice.


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    Patrice and Jeannette, thank you both so much for your contributions. I too struggle with PTSD as a result of trauma and I appreciate your insights.


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    Pastor Adam Borsay —

    I initially couldn’t think of what I wanted to say in reply to your honestly expressed thoughts and reactions to this post.

    Here is what I want to say.

    http://together-we-heal.org/2014/05/04/what-are-you-scared-of/

    And this:

    “Now you are the Body of Christ and individually members of it.” “If one member suffers, all suffer together.”

    In God’s eyes, Christ’s entire Body suffers when even one member is suffering. The invisible child (at any age) suffering in silence affects all of us, whether or not we understand this truth.

    Due to their impossible, life-threatening circumstances (and to the expertise of their abusers), abused children (at any age) can be extremely adept at camouflage, so much so, that often even loved ones, who know them the best, do not find out about the horrendous reality of their lives. We can meet the abused and not even detect their pain. We can also meet the homeless, the incarcerated, the addicted, the societal throwaways, the inebriated, the chronically unemployed, the chronically ill, the “rebellious,” even the bullies, and never detect their abuse. We can have eyes that do not see.

    Thankfully, at any time, we, the Body of Christ, can take God up on His offer to give us wisdom (James 1:5) about our suffering members. As you already know, God cares equally as much about the one, as he does about the 99.

    I appreciate your listening ear. (The fact that you already have too many things to do with the minutes in your day is your reality. Understandable that you want to maximize the returns on your time investments.)


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    @ Adam

    P.S. You’ve already arrived here — an excellent place to start gaining that God-given wisdom. “Before you ask, He will answer….” Jesus is just the BEST, isn’t He?!


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    P.S. again

    The author of “What Are You Scared Of?” says what I would like you and other leaders to hear — much more clearly than I can. (Just in case my earlier posts sounds like I wrote the essay. I didn’t.)