Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps, you can understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing and so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make any sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of – throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were being made into a decent little cottage: but He is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it Himself.” ― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity link
Why Jesus Understands Those Who Have Been Abused By the Church
On Good Friday, my family and I attended the Tenebrae service at Duke Chapel. Here is a link for those of you who have never seen this magnificent structure. Since it bills itself as a intradenominational church, I was curious to see how they would handle the saddest event in the history of the world. I believe that it was the finest Good Friday service that I have ever attended. The music, the Scripture readings, the darkening of the chapel, the 33 sad bells remembering the 33 years of the life of Jesus, were awe inspiring.
The sermon, given by The Rev. Luke Powery, Dean of Duke Chapel, hit me between the eyes. He said that we need to contemplate the body of tortured Jesus as much as we ponder His last words. As part of that examination, we must realize that wounds on His body were caused, in part, by the religious leaders. He looked out at the filled chapel and said that he knew there were those present who had been deeply wounded by religious leaders. He wanted to let us know that Jesus gets it.
Imagine my surprised this morning when I read a post on Religion News Service, written by Boz Tchividjian, titled Survivors and the Sufferings of Jesus which was posted on Good Friday. In this post, Tchividjian says:
This week I have found myself moved by how the sufferings of Jesus are tragically similar to the sufferings of so many who have been abused. These similarities are no coincidence and for some reason they have been a source of comfort to me during this important week in the Christian faith.
He lists the pain surrounding the suffering experienced by Jesus. He was:
Abused and mocked by the Church "I have encountered too many survivors who have been dehumanized by a Church that mocks them and demands their silence. After being arrested, Jesus was immediately taken before Caiaphas the high priest. In the place where one might hope that the Son of God would be loved and served, Jesus was mocked, slapped, spit upon and silenced.
Betrayed "Over 90% of victims are abused by someone they know and trust" Jesus was betrayed by Judas who was part of His inner circle.
Abandoned: "Survivors are often abandoned when those they hope will walk alongside them fall asleep or flee." Remember the disciples that fell asleep in Jesus' darkest hour.
He also was:
- Denied: Peter, the one called the rock, denied Him 3 times.
- Injustice: The church leaders and the civil authorities executed an innocent man-the most Innocent man in history.
- Offender embraced and the innocent sacrificed: How often do we see pastors and church leaders rally around the perpetrator or those who cover up the abuse? Remember the crowd who wanted Barabbas released instead of Jesus? Who was the criminal?
In the article, Boz uesed this phrase over and over again.
Jesus understands.
And then, in typical Boz fashion, he brings us to tears.
As I write this, I weep thinking about all those who feel so lost and alone on a dark road that seems to have no end. You are an amazing soul and are not alone.
May this bring some hope and peace to those of you who have or are suffering.
Chick-fil-A's Dan Cathy Retires From the Culture Wars and Is Called a "Coward" By Tony Perkins: Why I Think This Is Not About Money.
Today, The Christian Post reported on a story in USA Today Chick-fil-A Wings In a New Direction. USA Today apparently believes that this is motivated purely by money.
About two years ago, Cathy made headlines after conceding to being "guilty as charged," in confirming Chick-fil-A's support of the traditional family. Both ardent supporters and angry picketers showed up at stores. While Cathy's comments didn't hurt short-term business — and even helped it — Chick-fil-A executives recognize that the comments may have done longer-term damage to the brand's image at the very time it was eyeing major growth outside its friendly Southern market.
The Christian Post recalls Cathy's original statements.
Cathy drew the ire of same-sex marriage advocates in the summer of 2012 when he told The Biblical Recorder that the company "was supportive of the biblical definition of the family unit." In another interview he charged that America was "inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage."
Recently, according to the Post, Cathy has changed his approach.
Last month he told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that all of that was a mistake.
"Every leader goes through different phases of maturity, growth and development and it helps by (recognizing) the mistakes that you make," said Cathy. "And you learn from those mistakes. If not, you're just a fool. I'm thankful that I lived through it and I learned a lot from it."
While his position on the traditional definition of marriage has not changed, Cathy explained in a USA Today interview that his company's socially conservative agenda, which led them to donate millions to opponents of same-sex marriage in the past, has been tempered.
USA reports that Cathy told them
"All of us become more wise as time goes by," he says, apologetically, in a rare, one-hour sit-down interview. "We sincerely care about all people."
Of course, culture warrior Tony Perkins, who supported Cathy's original stand, ain't happy.
(He) derided business leaders like Cathy who temper their positions on same-sex marriage in the name of business.
"I think we're seeing those in the business community becoming cowards," Perkins said on Mike Huckabee's Fox News program on Sunday.
Call me naive but I think that Cathy has undergone a change of heart. Here is the background. In 2013, TWW posted What RC Sproul and Ed Young Could Learn From Dan Cathy and an LGBT Activist
Yes, after months of personal phone calls, text messages and in-person meetings, I am coming out in a new way, as a friend of Chick-fil-A's president and COO, Dan Cathy, and I am nervous about it. I have come to know him and Chick-fil-A in ways that I would not have thought possible when I first started hearing from LGBT students about their concerns over the chicken chain's giving practices.
For many this news of friendship might be shocking. After all, I am an out, 40-year-old gay man and a lifelong activist for equality. I am also the founder and executive director of Campus Pride, the leading national organization for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) and ally college students. Just seven months ago our organization advanced a national campaign against Chick-fil-A for the millions of dollars it donated to anti-LGBT organizations and divisive political groups that work each day to harm hardworking LGBT young people, adults and our families. I have spent quite some time being angry at and deeply distrustful of Dan Cathy and Chick-fil-A. If he had his way, my husband of 18 years and I would never be legally married.
… Dan and I shared respectful, enduring communication and built trust. His demeanor has always been one of kindness and openness. Even when I continued to directly question his public actions and the funding decisions, Dan embraced the opportunity to have dialogue and hear my perspective. He and I were committed to a better understanding of one another. Our mutual hope was to find common ground if possible, and to build respect no matter what. We learned about each other as people with opposing views, not as opposing people.
…During our meetings I came to see that the Chick-fil-A brand was being used by both sides of the political debate around gay marriage. The repercussion of this was a deep division and polarization that was fueling feelings of hate on all sides. As a result, we agreed to keep the ongoing nature of our meetings private for the time being. The fire needed no more fuel.
…Even as Campus Pride and so many in the community protested Chick-fil-A and its funding of groups like Family Research Council, Eagle Forum and Exodus International, the funding of these groups had already stopped. Dan Cathy and Chick-fil-A could have noted this publicly earlier. Instead, they chose to be patient, to engage in private dialogue, to reach understanding,and to share proof with me when it was official. There was no "caving"; there were no "concessions." There was, in my view, conscience.
Listen very carefully to Shane in this closing comment.
In the end, it is not about eating (or not eating a certain chicken sandwich). It is about sitting down at a table together and sharing our views as human beings, engaged in real, respectful, civil dialogue. Dan would probably call this act the biblical definition of hospitality. I would call it human decency. So long as we are all at the same table and talking, does it matter what we call it or what we eat?
Has that friendship continued? Yes, according to USA Today. Here is what they report.
One past critic has even become an unlikely fan. "Dan and I have an ongoing friendship," says Shane Windmeyer, executive director of the gay rights advocacy group Campus Pride. "I am appreciative for the common ground we have established in treating all people with dignity and respect — including LGBT people."
So, is it about money or has something changed? Cathy still believes in traditional marriage. At the same time, it appears that he has made a good friend in a gay activist and is now viewed as a "coward" by evangelical culture warriors.
You can never do enough for culture warriors. You either toe each and every line or you are out. I find this response by Perkins despicable. Cathy has always been public with his belief in Christianity. He defied the naysayers with his decision to close all of his stores on Sundays. Chick-fil-A has now surpassed Kentucky Fried Chicken in domestic sales.
I, for one, am glad that he appears to be extricating himself from the stranglehold of never satisfied "Christian" pundits. Good for him!
Here is Tony Perkins on Mike Huckabee's show
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 16:42-17:24 Hebrews 8:1-13 Psalm 106:13-31 Proverbs 27:7-9
Tony Perkins can stick a sock in it.
Fascinating coverage of the Dan Cathy interviews, thanks for this post, Deebs.
Am hankering for a Chick-fil-A classic chicken sandwich right now. 2 pickles and mayo only. Closing my eyes and envisioning one dancing happily in front of my eyes. Will be some time before I have access, alas. 🙂
When money overrides conscience, I tend not to buy.
Good by chick-fil-A.
Because even the word Homosexuality turns off every neuron above the Culture Warrior reptile brain and waves the Bright Red Murder Flag in front of what’s left. RAWR!!!!!
Amazing how a one-in-thirty sexual behavior can cause immediate psychotic breakdown (“RAWR!!!!!”) in the remaining twenty-nine out of thirty…
Purged from The Party for Thoughtcrime, Goldsteinism, and Impurity of Ideology.
I be impressed! I know what I am having for dinner tonight! 😀
Thank you so much for this post on something I, and probably many others,have not focused on in the Easter story – that Jesus was the victim of the CHURCH and that this is not something that is confined to Jerusalem 2000 years ago. Whether Jew, Christian, Muslim or whatever, and whether in the past, present or future, religion can be an instrument to victimize people.
@ linda:
Is it your opinion he is doing this just for the money?
I love the story about Dan Cathy and Shane Windemeyer. The culture wars, from either side, will destroy our culture if we let them. They destroy relationships and people, elevating ideology over humans. It is incredibly sad to see people cut off contact between themselves and others because of differing opinions.
It was really this impulse that led us to kill Jesus. But God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, and still is.
Wesley wrote:
Great comment, Wesley.
The post on why Jesus understands abuse is absolutely beautiful. Thank you!
I only thought I was all cried out this weekend. Boz’s post made me dash for the tissues again. Simply beautiful. Thank you for highlighting it.
I love Dan Cathy’s tempered approach. At dinner yesterday my friend was talking about her sister who is a lesbian and how she’s prayed and sought counsel and changed her approach to a more loving approach in recent years. I made a comment that, if you had a close family member who was living with someone of the opposite sex, you might have one discussion with them about how that isn’t God’s best, but you wouldn’t beat it to the ground every time you saw them. Another dinner guest replied, “Well, there’s a reason that the gospel is called an offense.” Needless to say, that stopped that conversation on my part. Not my view of God at all.
Thank you for sharing your Good Friday experience. I would have loved to have been there for that.
I don’t understand people that make one viewpoint the factor that decides whether someone is an enemy or not. And then from that point on (regardless of the side taken), you become a coward because you’ve put a real human face and interactions on someone. Keeping something like gay rights at arm’s length as a political viewpoint only dehumanizes the individual with a different opinion–even if you would otherwise get along fine without knowing the opinion in the first place.
I have no problem with political donations or opinions coming from various companies, I really don’t. I can decide if I want to support that company or not, but either way, it doesn’t bother me. I love my family and friends that are gay, and there is nothing an evangelical cultural warrior is going to say to me to change that. I have my own sins to work on, and I know that Jesus loves everyone and we are called to do the same as believers. Now, cultural warriors in general tend to irritate me regardless of the opinion held… so that’s probably why my opinion wouldn’t change anyway.
This week I have found myself moved by how the sufferings of Jesus are tragically similar to the sufferings of so many who have been abused.
I think I understand what BT is saying here, and I agree with extending that to empathy and compassion for victims, BUT it still makes me uncomfortable to hear the suffering of any mortal compared to that of Jesus. For example, I have a knee-jerk reaction when I hear pastors tell the sheeple that he, the man-o-gawd, and/or they, the people-o-gawd, are being “persecuted” in the USA today because they’re Christians. Baloney! Most of us have no idea what persecution is. So again, I’m not in any way trying to minimize the suffering any victim of abuse has felt, but I am not comfortable comparing it to the suffering of Christ.
Last week I read a news story about Charles Cooper. http://tinyurl.com/mlvnolk
This is one of the attorneys who defended California’s Prop 8 all the way to the Supreme Court. During this process, his daughter “came out,” and now he is helping her plan her upcoming wedding.
What happened to Dan Cathy, Charles Cooper, and others is very similar. Once the “other” has a name and a face, and is someone you respect and/or love, things can change. That doesn’t even necessarily mean their core values have changed. It just means they do not wish to intentionally inflict pain.
It’s nice to read that about Dan Cathy. I may actually eat at Chik-fil-a again sometime now. Wish others would move on. Yesterday was Easter, I had forgotten that it was, and the first few things in my news feed were about Franklin Grahm and Ralph Reed telling us “Hosanna! Jesus is Risen! Let us bash some gays.” I wish someone would just tell them, we get it. Christians hate the gays. We really get it (we being nones or non Christians). Another Christian blogger had a good piece on just the sort of flap Tony Perkins was whinging about, http://bit.ly/1jxwlGq. You may find it interesting.
Rafiki wrote:
So can Russell Moore, Ralph Reed, and Franklin Graham.
Former CLC’er wrote:
This is the latest in Calvinista “sayings.” It is important to understand that the gospel is only an offense to those who have different sins than the person making the statement. Give me a minute or two with them and they would understand what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I am thinking about hiring myself out to cause a ruckus at family gatherings.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Me, too…
Oops, forgot a coda. Of course not all Christians hate gays, just sadly the ones that seem to be the mouthpieces of Christendom.
JadedOne wrote:
I had this same feeling when I interviewed Justin Lee for the blog. I still remember his big blue eyes looking at me as we talked. I sense how the conversation went from theoretical to personal that day. I am grateful to him.
notastepfordsheep wrote:
I would agree with a limitation. Jesus suffered because He carried our sins and that is not something we can fully appreciate.
But, He also suffered when He was whipped, nailed, etc. His body was human and the pain was real. Those wounds hurt Him due to the fact he chose to be human and fully experienced the pain which does with having a human nervous system. That whipping was caused by the religious leaders who turned him over the Roman soldiers.
Therefore, He has suffered the pain and humiliation in the minimum which we experience. And He gets our pain-emotional, physical and spiritual. He suffered more than we but He did suffer as we do as well.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
When I interviewed Justin Lee of the Gay Christian Network, I asked him what he would say to Christians about this issue. His answer startled me. He said that he would tell all evangelicals that any gay person knows you disapprove of them before you even open your mouth. So, instead of restating the obvious, reach out and dialogue instead.
I must tell you, to my shame, years ago, I did say something to the effect of “hate the sin, love the sinner” to a Christian man who came out of the closet. All it did was shut down communication. I have since followed his struggle and see him trying to work it out with God. I only wish I had been more thoughtful. I learned a hard lesson that day. I am a different person today then I was back then. Pain can cause growth.
Just so you all know that we share your pain…my above comment went into moderation… But, I have influence to get it approved more quickly.
Oh, my, what a quandary. Chick-fil-A prices went up significantly, and at our house we have sought fried chicken from elsewhere because of this. I have not been following the politics of it all. Now I suppose there will be some litmus test that people who don’t eat Chick-fil-A are bound to be doing it for political reasons and need to be back over there. Not at those prices, when there is always Bojangles and the deli at the grocery store sells fried whole chickens (cut up of course) for the best price in town.
At my house it definitely is all about the money and all about the chicken. And for my money, as long as I do not have to raise and slaughter and pluck and clean and fry the chicken, I can cut everybody in the chicken business a lot of slack. I had enough of that other mess as a kid.
Sound like I missed the point? Not at all. You can go broke trying to be religiously perfect and politically spotless. Time to move on at the chicken counter.
While Cathy’s comments didn’t hurt short-term business — and even helped it — Chick-fil-A executives recognize that the comments may have done longer-term damage to the brand’s image at the very time it was eyeing major growth outside its friendly Southern market.
As for Dan Cathy, I think it’s probably a combination of a softening of his stance after getting to actually know a gay person personally, but I’m pretty sure this was as much an economic decision as anything. CFA wasn’t getting the “friendly” reception in markets that are more LGBT-friendly, so I see much of what he’s said recently as damage control designed to pave the way to new territories.
It is funny seeing the likes of Tony Perkins getting his knickers in a knot though. Made me laugh.
CFA had enough money to bulldoze to the ground a less-than-5-year-old store in Germantown, TN last year and rebuild a new store on the same site… this one with two drive-through lanes. Any time they’re open both lines have a minimum of 7 or 8 cars waiting with the lines often extending around the entire parking lot and spilling over into the street.
I’ve eaten at CFA. IMO it ain’t that good! And if they’ve recently raised their already high prices, I certainly won’t be eating there again. The last one I tried must have been prepared the day before, and I swear the first bite came from the part of the chicken that goes over the fence last. Blech!
Nancy wrote:
I hope not. 🙂
In my neck of the woods it’s Bush’s (a local chain) and, rarely, Popeye’s. Chick-Fil-A is on the other side of town. We don’t eat politics.
Boz, Boz – Jesus didn’t belong to a “church.” He was Jewish. There wasn’t a “church” until well after his death and resurrection (in the sense that we now understand the word “church”).
The ERLC Leadership Summit will address the gospel and human sexuality to equip pastors and church leaders to speak to these critical issues in their own congregations. This event will be held April 21-23, 2014, at the Southern Baptist Convention building in Nashville, TN.
From broken marriages to pornography to homosexuality, sexual confusion and sexual brokenness has ravaged our culture and can deteriorate the integrity of our churches.
Greg Belser who protected convicted child sex offender Langworthy is a featured panelist speaking tonight on “The Gospel and Homosexuality.” Noticeably absent from the entire summit is the topic of sexual abuse. http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/04/how-to-get-promoted-in-southern-baptist.html?m=1#sthash.NwvPMQL7.dpuf
A sampling of other topics:
• Traffic Stop: How the Gospel Can Overcome Sex Trafficking – Tony Merida
• The Man, the Myth, the Legend: Embracing Gospel-Shaped Manhood (for men only) – Robby Gallaty
• Resisting Lips that Drip Honey: Wisdom on Sexuality from Proverbs – Jon Akin
• Biblical Womanhood: June Cleaver, Clair Huxtable, or the Proverbs 31 Woman (for women only) – Trillia Newbell
Keynote: Russell D. Moore “Walking the Line: The Gospel and Moral Purity”
Panel: Ministering in a Sex-saturated Society
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
In my part of the world, it is Chicken Express and Popeye’s. I think there might be a Chick-Fil-A about 25 miles from here….never eaten one of their sandwiches….
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
If you think that Christians “hate” homosexuals, than you don’t get it. I know it’s one of your major talking points though.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Btw, John Shore is not a Christian blogger.
@ notastepfordsheep:
Well, this should demonstrate to you my eclectic taste. i love CFA nuggets! I love their diet lemonade even more. It is made with real lemons. I buy a gallon of that stuff once a week in the summer. My husband loves their grilled chicken sandwich which fits in with his diabetic diet.
So, we are fans.
Nicholas wrote:
He says he is. From his about page.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/about/
“John is a straight, married Christian living in San Diego. Combined, John’s personal blog (the one you’re on now) and his Unfundamentalist Christians group blog are viewed over 300,000 times per month.”
Nicholas wrote:
Is he no a true Scotsman either?
@ Amy Smith:
The presence of Belser, as well as Moore’s past endorsement of Philip Gunn, take away any moral authority such a panel may have had.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
You can’t believe whatever you want and still call yourself a Christian. Shore denies the sinfulness of homosexuality and the existence of hell, for example.
That would be like saying that someone who believes in God is an atheist if they say they are.
@ Nicholas:
How interesting. Please give me a list of exactly all doctrine positions are needed to be met so I can test if people are True Christians™ when they tell me they are Christian. Because I’ve read quite a lot of different Christians backing up opposing views on Hell and homosexuality with Scripture, but since you know who is a true Christian, please share.
@Dee – I think you and I would make a good team at family gatherings. I tend to shut up around people I don’t know well, like at Easter dinner. But with people I know well, look out. I nearly kicked my roommate’s best friend out of my house after she said the movie “The Butler” was liberal because it showed Barack Obama in it, and then she started talking smack about the Trayvon Martin case. I guess racism is a closer issue to my heart than homosexuality because I have consistently worked in African-American communities. But anyone, I can get fiesty when worked up.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Yes, Nicholas, please tell us how we will know someone is a Christian. Give us your list of requirements so we will know.
Nicholas wrote:
What constitutes a Christian? What does the Bible say about that? Is it belief in Jesus+?
For example, you do know that John Stott is an annihilationist and is considered a great theologian by even the most conservative of theologians. So how does that fit with the “hell” issue?
If a person believes the health and wealth gospel but also accepts Jesus as their Savior, are they a Christian?
I wish you could have seen what my theology was when I became a Christian when I was 17 during an episode of Star Trek. I knew next to nothing but I knew the Lord of the universe. Until I was about 21, I believed the abortion was not killing a life. Was I not a Christian?
I stopped judging who is and who is not a Christian a long time ago. I leave that in the very capable hands of our Lord. I am with Lewis. There will be many surprises in heaven.
@ Nicholas:
You just can’t resist hitting people over the head with a 2×4, can you?
Please either engage people in a civil manner or else give it a rest, dude..
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
🙂
@ Nicholas:
I guess you are in an ultraconservative LCMS congregation? Because shoot, you *know* that the entire ELCA is going to hell, no??!
fwiw Jesus didn’t mention the issues you seem to hold dear in his two greatest commandments, and by golly, they’re not in the 10 commandments or in the Creeds or…
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said,”Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?” He said, “Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?” He said,”Reformed Baptist church of god!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?” He said, “Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off. — Emo Phillips
@ dee: Stoot is quite conservative, and while I cannot in all good conscience accept annihilationism, it certainly doesn’t strike me as controversial outsides of fundamentalist churches…
@ numo: err, Story.
@ numo: no, STOTT.
Oh, Android! Let Stoot through, but Stott must be deemed a heretical spelling. 😉
numo wrote:
My husband and I visited the LCMS congregation which his mother attends. (She is a wonderful woman and I am lucky to have her as a mother-in-law.) The Sunday School teacher spent the first ten minutes explaining who they were and were not in fellowship with. I remember nothing of what the topic of the class was. I remember well him talking about who they didn’t “fellowship”.
@ Tina:
Thank God not *all* LCMS churches are like that! I went to one (on the East Coast) during grad school. They knew i was ELCA, but nobody was bothered by my taking communion…
I was not impressed with Chik-Fil-A the one time I ate it as the waffle fries, IMHO, were undercooked. I was told that was a feature. But to each his own. I was thinking of going to a local taqueria and pick up dinner, but I don’t know that I want to wait 30 minutes for a meal…
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Love, love, love that joke. So apropos. Thank you for handling this with humor!
Nicholas wrote:
And my mother wonders why I won’t go to church.
A quarter-century ago, I went to a church in Houston (which has since transmogrified into something else) with a friend and the pastor preached a sermon about getting the reality of hell into your hearts. During the altar call, I got up, went out the door and walked around the block. When I came back, he was still going on about the reality of hell. It had to be at least 5-10 minutes later. That week, even though I needed to finish a paper so I could graduate from law school, I wrote a long letter to this guy explaining why I thought he was wrong. I also asked him if, he believed non-believers were going to hell, why he wasn’t spending every.single.moment of his time warning people, from the newspaper boy to the checkout clerk to…you get it. I got a response that a friend described as “both of us deciding to sit at separate tables.” I learned only last week that this pastor later became the national director of the Vineyard congregations. I wonder if Bert Waggoner remembers the anguished letter a distressed young woman wrote to him about hell 25 years ago?
Never eaten at CFA but really, it shouldn’t be that hard to beat KFC… 😉
dee wrote:
That Emo Phillips quote is so apropos and so priceless.
Jesus did teach two great commandments, and I suppose taught a third (do not be a hypocrit!) Cathy seems to have realized that he could hold to his beliefs without supporting those who take those beliefs to an extreme and provoke confrontation. The extremists in the faith wars seem to forget, or massively reinterpret, thus reversing the meaning of, the second. Cathy and others on both sides of this issue realize that we can hold our beliefs and still be kind, generous, caring, etc., people with those who disagree.
Quite frankly, it takes greater courage to stand up and say, even though I disagree with you, I can find common ground with you on other matters, including being a person willing to listen and talk with those who disagree without being disagreeable. Kindness goes a long way.
Yesterday I cooked Easter dinner for my fiance, my mother, my future sister-in-law and her wife and it was a beautiful meal. I don’t care who you are or what you believe but when you are at my table you will be served with love, not criticism. I think I’ve told this story here before but its worth mentioning again. A couple of years ago I found out that a college friend was diagnosed with multiple food allergies, similar to myself. I reached out to her to offer assistance and the first thing she said was “Just so you know I’m gay. I know you are a Christian and Christians hate gays. Please don’t try to be nice to me if all you want to do is tell me I’m going to hell.” My heart was broken by her statement and how much pain she must have endured at the hands of fellow believers who all “want to help”. I never want another person to feel that way, especially in my house and at my dinner table. No matter what your religious/gender/political beliefs are or how many food allergies you have, I will always be honored to feed you as a guest in my home.
Dan Cathy has done what a lot of Christian leaders would like to do, but are too scared to act now. I know several high ranking Christians who privately admit they are fed up with the culture wars but fear speaking out
As more “Dans” take a stand, eventually it will reach a critical mass and this issue will all but disappear except for a few diehards who continue to milk it for fundraising.
Nicholas wrote:
Never mind their treatment of LGBT activists, some all-too-vocal straight Christians also condemn and distance themselves from fellow Christians who are gay and [because they follow a conservative sexual ethic] celibate. Explain how this response is loving and not at all hateful.
Janey wrote:
Given what happened to World Vision a few weeks ago, wouldn’t it seem that Christian leaders are right to be concerned about what would happen to them if they voice any support for dropping the culture wars?
Josh wrote:
Hey Josh, it’s late, and I’m too tired to issue a snarky comment except to say that I wish you could move up north, away from those crazy Southerners, where something is strange in the water….Oops….Deb and Dee live in the South, and they are not crazy..
Seriously, I am very sorry for the way that you get treated, if you are describing yourself…..Have a great night, and Peace to all the Southerners….Technically I am a displaced one….and if you live in the North, many apologies if I got that wrong….
Well, that’s the thing about any war: you need an enemy to keep it going. And in the case of the culture war, there’s a lot of money to be made in keeping an enemy for people to get riled up about and donate those dollars to the cause. So when people like Dan Cathy start becoming peacemakers, the culture warriors don’t like it. Not one bit.
Seems like they forgot that Jesus said “blessed are the peacemakers,” not “blessed are the culture warriors.”
Hester wrote:
Never been to Chick-fil-A either. I make my own Asian marinade and the chicken goes over charcoal on an old fashioned hibachi. Mrs. Muff makes the best damn potato salad on the planet to boot, so why would I even consider Chick-fil-A? And KFC? I got so sick from their fare on one occasion, I thought I was gonna’ croak.
@ Nicholas:
Some of them do. I knew one who worked as a membership coordinator for a homeschool group, who was terrified to pick up the phone if it was a number she didn’t know and there were two unisex names on the caller ID (i.e., Pat and Leslie Smith), lest it be a gay couple trying to join the Christian group. If a phobia is an irrational fear of something that negatively affects your day-to-day life, that is true homophobia in the non-buzzword sense.
Hester wrote:
Yes and Amen to all that you said, especially this. I am so sad that people have to live this way.
“If a phobia is an irrational fear of something that negatively affects your day-to-day life, that is true homophobia in the non-buzzword sense.”
Josh wrote:
Josh, I get what you’re saying, and yes, I think people are right to be cautious.
But I think there’s a difference between what World Vision did (announcing they’d hire practicing homosexuals) and what Cathy did (saying he would tone down his speech, change his donations, and start treating all with respect).
dee wrote:
Have Gospel. Will Travel.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
From the guy with 20+ years in Furry Fandom:
LOUD CRAZIES HAVE A WAY OF DEFINING THE PUBLIC FACE OF ANY MOVEMENT.
dee wrote:
Didn’t Pope Francis say pretty much the same thing?
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
Simple. They’re True Christians(TM) if they agree 1000% with Nicholas.
That’s the way it usually works out.
Marie2 wrote:
I appreciate your thoughts and concern. I must confess, though, that I’m not from the South (nor have I ever had a fried Twinkie – not sure why that’s relevant, but I thought I’d throw it in anyway); I was born and have since lived in the upper midwest. And for what it’s worth, I was describing hateful things that I’ve heard said about other people, things that might be heard in Culture War™-centric evangelical churches in every one of the [United] States.
With that said, I’ve been to Tennessee, and thought it was great (all of y’all down there have some fantastic mountains). Regretfully, I’ve never made it further south than that.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ees party line, comrade? 😀
Sorry, but I had to steal your line. I couldn’t help myself.
dee wrote:
Exactly! I really should write more than just a short response, but you sum stuff up so well 🙂
@ Josh:
Ha! I knew I’d get that wrong about where you live. .. Did not realize that you live in a fly-over state, oops I mean the Northwest. ..Wish I could say something encouraging but I know I’m starting to fall asleep
I’m going to bed for reals this time. But first, I thought I should respond with some substance to the side side discussion that we’ve been having. Unfortunately, I put my 20/20 vision on the bed stand, so if this has too many typos or inappropriate word substitutions, blame it on the fact that my screen suddenly became super blurry… Anyhow, onward:
Aside from the No True Scotsman fallacy, Nicholas also commits the fallacy of poisoning the well (using the No True Scotsman fallacy) as well as making a claim (“than [sic] you don’t get it”) without providing an argument of any substance – or really, any argument at all – for why we should accept his claim.
Meanwhile, he has shown no signs of being the slightest bit bothered by Franklin Graham’s use of a significant amount of time on an Easter morning TV appearance to broadcast thoroughly debunked nonsense about gay people (which the anchor did call him on) instead of talking about stuff like, oh, maybe, uh… Jesus. Or loving people. Or something akin to that…
Marie2 wrote:
Well, at least if we get hungry, there’s always plenty of corn to eat… wait, never mind, they turn most of it into fuel and burn it. 😮
At least we don’t lack for conversation topics: the weather and the health of the corn are always changing. 😀
@ dee:
Hmmm…. Yet when Calvinistas are confronted w/abusers, pedophiles, etc., they practice “sin-leveling.”
@ Josh:
Dont forget the high fructose corn syrup…
Josh wrote:
Yeah, you’d think Easter, talk about Jesus, but no, it was all culture war junk. *shakes head*
After we were thrown out of Countryside we landed at two churches. We went to an AOG church in town and then…(GASP)we went to the “gay” church in town as well. We rotated Sundays for over two years doing this. My husband a good old southern baptist boy put aside any hang ups he might have and got to know these lovely people. We worshiped and served alongside them and watched them as much as they watched us. I mean here we were a family in the traditional sense coming to their church, did’nt we know they had churches out there just for us? Giggle. It was a wonderful time in our lives and our kids had a blast getting to know people. They would never have had a face to put on this movement of people without it. They are undoubtedly wonderfully queer Christians that love God and serve him. I saw the fruit of that while there. I hate that so many of us straight christians act so badly towards our brothers and sisters in Christ. I will let God be God and decide who comes in the door. I just know however I will be shoulder to shoulder with some of my gay christian friends. We need to get over ourselves and put the nonesense of hate the sin not the sinner out to pasture. What a hellish comment that one really is!!!!
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
“Hating gays” or the phrase “anti gay” is usually defined, however, by many on the “Pro” side as “anyone who disagrees with homosexuality and/or homosexual marriage.” And I don’t think that is fair, honest, or accurate, but it is common.
dee wrote:
IMO that is nothing to be ashamed of.
I’m a hetero single. If I start having sex prior to marriage (assuming I ever marry) it would still be appropriate to say “I don’t agree with your sexual behavior but I care about you as a fellow human being.”
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
But do you really believe someone like Fred Phelps was a Christian?
I don’t think it’s a case of No True Scotsman fallacy when even the founder of Christianity said not all who call him “Lord” are people who he would acknowledge as being his followers.
Christ said on the judgement day many will stand before him thinking they are one of his and he will tell them to “depart from me, I never knew you.”
He also said that wolves would sneak in among the sheep, and tares among the wheat (ie, false converts, false teachers). He said to test people… by their fruit you shall know them and such.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Sooooo… if someone told you he’s a Christian, and that he believes that Jesus Christ was really purple colored, with three heads, green hair,had ten plaid legs, juggled penguins as a hobby, and came from Mars in a spaceship to teach all humanity the value of Tiddly winks, you’d buy their label of “Christian?” You’re that open about what a person can define as “Christian?”
If someone says he’s a Muslim and also claims to believe in Scientology’s Xenu and that he thinks Israel belongs to the Jews after all, and eating pork is fine, that would not give you pause to think, ‘does this guy really understand what Islam is?’
Josh wrote:
Some of those LGBT activists are bullies.
@ Daisy:
I think we can agree that there are bullies on BOTH sides of this issue. On either side there are some stellar cases of rudeness and disrespect. That being said the stereotype that the christian right likes to lead with is quite far from the truth of who most gay folks really are…. My life is so much the richer for the friends I have made.
I hate the culture wars not because I don’t believe a certain way, because it divides people and dehumanizes the “other.” When people become “those people,” that wall has been erected and words become powerful weapons. Words don’t literally kill, but they can do just as much damage. And sometimes those words sway others into believing falsehoods. For years my mother boycotted Proctor and Gamble because that symbol was the Moonies symbol. This was all a lie. And as much as Proctor and Gamble protested people were slow to realize they had been had. My family left the Russian empire at a time of massive pograms against Jewish people. It was easy to blame the Jews for so much they weren’t involved it such as assassinations and economic down turns. Now it is easy to blame homosexuals for natural disasters. Natural disasters may be a part of God’s plan, but they may have happened even if gays were hidden and oppressed. It’s easy to blame those who are the “other” when matters are unexplainable. For quite awhile Evangelicals have been best known as “those who hate gays” to the exclusion of all else. And what good has been accomplished with this reputation? I wouldn’t want to be known for hate instead of what is considered the greatest, which is love. So I applaud Mr. Cathey for breaking down this wall and communicating with the “other,” not as an enemy but a human being. As for Boz, thanks for not belittling the helpless and nameless, unlike many of our so called religious leaders.
Daisy wrote:
Good point!
@ Daisy:
You’re not making much sense her. Christianity and Christians cover a lot more of the visible spectrum than youre allowing.
Your examples are, i guess, intended to be ridiculous but to me they seemtotally beside the point – as if youre not wanting to accept that people can have a real variance of belief/opinion on many issues and *still* be xtians.
Again, my thought is that it’s a big world out here. Might help to spend some time in the fresh air.
Former CLC’er wrote:
That did arouse my curiosity, I must admit, Former. Did that guest go on to share with the group exactly what had offended them* about the gospel? Or were they already basically righteous, with their salvation just rubber-stamping their already godly lifestyle?
* I know that’s grammatically wrong, but “him/her” is really clunky!
This quote, of course, pre-dates Cathy’s significant change of heart and of approach. But it’s the kind of thing you frequently hear from fundagelical biblianists and it is primarily to them that I attribute it.
The point: Actually, people very rarely shake their fists at God and decide they know better than him. 99 times out of 100, they are shaking their fists at the churches and have decided they know better than us.
I can’t entirely blame them. We rarely provide them with any actual evidence that our holy book is God’s autobiography – still less that we alone, and not that other second-rate church across the street, have calculated the correct and authoritative interpretation of it. Proof-by-assertion simply doesn’t persuade everyone, and it’s not as though we consistently heal the sick and raise the dead.
@ Daisy:
As long as we’re playing logical fallacy bingo, I’ll call “false equivalency” here. The incidences of bullying by certain LGBT people against people who disagree with them (and we’re talking actual bullying, not criticism of public people for public statements and actions) are simply insignificant in scope and frequency compared to the campaign of oppression ranging from schoolyard taunts to legal action and violence that has been and still is used against anyone who is or seems gay. Seriously, Daisy, every time you say something like this, it’s the equivalent of saying “your brother slapped me once” to the person being beaten into unconsciousness.
@ Daisy:
And if there were a long history of legally discriminating against, imprisoning, beating, killing, branding as a predatory pervert, and generally making the life of anyone who had, wanted to have, or seems like they might want to have extramarital heterosexual sex miserable and dangerous, you’d have a point. As it stands, a gay person has heard that glib phrase a thousand times before, usually from someone who’s trying to justify mistreating them in some way and/or callimg them a predatory pervert. It has a context, it’s hurtful, and insisting that it doesn’t change that.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
There is, of course, an acronym for “she/he/it” but I would not advise it.
@ Daisy:
…but merely coming out of the closet does not necessarily = engaging in sexual sin. If someone told you they were straight, I expect you would not automatically assume they were fornicating, having an affair, etc.
@ Nick:
I’ve seen “xe” used before…completely made up etymologically, but it saves space and avoids the nasty arguments about the proper use of “they.” 🙂
@ burntnorton:
Put more succinctly, when all a gay person experiences is the metaphorical back of your hand again and again and again, your claim to love them is a horrible joke.
Nancy wrote:
The great thing about the (predominantly) Scottish word “shite” is that it’s entirely rude but doesn’t trip the moderating circuit-breakers anywhere! However, it’s not a good replacement for he/she/it either.
Oops – perhaps I spoke too soon (re a certain word not landing me in mod-land !!!)
Come on peeps, let’s get real. “There are excesses and abuses.” OK. Let’s stop it with the excesses and abuses. Surely every sane person could agree with that. “I can’t seem to tell the difference between biblical / traditional (whatever) christian beliefs and cultural / political beliefs.” OK, so learn how. “It hurts my feelings when somebody else gets their feelings hurt regardless of what may cause that.” How sad. That must make it difficult to get through the day especially when people want to fight about issues not feelings. Toughen up. If you do not, then people will manipulate you with their “feelings.” But here is the really big one: “I have made up my own “rules” and I have cobbled up my own “jesus” and here is the hill on which I am willing to die.” I hate to hear that, but that is a pit a lot of people fall into. How is that working out for you?
I want to reference “an attorney” here, because I am convinced that his approach to this is how to navigate these treacherous waters without either compromising one’s beliefs (whatever they are) and at the same time without destroying our nation in the process. Yeah for “an attorney.” Preach it, brother.
@ An Attorney:
@ Hester:
Here in the UK, “they / them / their” is gradually becoming the standard common gender. Which is fine by me; it works, and language is an evolving thing after all. Must admit, I’ve never seen “Xe”. Sticking with the “evolving” theme, it remains to be seen whether the new mutation will out-reproduce the older one!
@ Nancy:
I literally have no idea what you’re talking about.
@ An Attorney:
Great comment.
Mandy wrote:
That was beautiful!
Josh wrote:
I had a wonderful meeting with Justin Lee who taught me how to behave to those with whom you disagree. He does it all the time and does it with dignity.
John wrote:
Good comment. It appears that Cathy got off the “enemy” train. Therefore he is now the enemy.
Hester wrote:
Good night!
Josh wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh this AM
@ Daisy:
Unfortunately, Daisy, that phrase has been used to emphasize the sin aspect. Let me give you an example. Let’s say I go to a house in which a friend has prepared a nice dinner for me. I then spell out why i cannot eat that dinner: no potatoes because I am low carb; no red meat because I believe in the ethical treatment of animals, no brussels sprouts because they give me gas, no coffee because it isn’t fair trade and on and on…Then, I pull out my trail mix and sit there eating while telling my friend how much I like her.I just don’t like her food.
Think she would get it?
Daisy wrote:
So, what do you do with the all pervasive problem with sin. Is a person a good Christian because they “speak out” about the cause du jour but still has other issues in their life. Wait…I think all of us have issues in our lives. So, are we Christians with “fruit” and what is that “fruit?”
Josh wrote:
Maybe you can come to North Carolina one day and we can take you to Mama Dip’s for some real southern cooking! Or Crook’s Corner-the home of shrimp and grits…Remember, I am from Salem Mass and I love this stuff but I do miss clam chowder and lobster rolls.
Taylor Joy wrote:
Comment of the day! However, you must add a caveat-when it is one of their own “leader” types. In our own situation, they believed a seminary student going to an approved © seminary over a young teen who was not related o any of the approved© in group.
@ Daisy:
That is not what we are saying here. That is arguing from the absurd.
Of course there are limits but sometimes we draw the line to narrow as well.
@ Daisy:
Some GLBT are bullies, some Baptists are bullies, some Reformed folks are bullies, some Muslims are bullies, some Republicans are bullies, some Democrats are bullies, some third graders are bullies, and on and on. The point is to identify the some and tell them to cut it out while we focus on those who want to dialog.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
They see the “heinous” beliefs of others and give their issues a pass.
@ dee:
It is amazing in the “Christian” world how quickly one can become the enemy.
raswhiting wrote:
Challenge question…How do you do this? You walk into a dinner party in which there are two couples who have remarried because they just got tired of their former spouses, there is a gay couple, one lady who is seriously obese due to overeating, not a thyroid problem, there is another guy who got rich by a Ponzi scheme and got out before he was caught, and a lady who hirse illegals and pays them substandard wages under the table.
Do you start by taking off your coat and announcing to each person a list of their sins and telling them you love them but don’t love x,y,z? And while you are at it, do you confess your sins and tell them what you are doing to “overcome?’
If we truly are out in the world, we will meet lots of people who have all sorts of issues that we might call sins. How do we choose which ones to confront? And what is the purpose of our confrontation? Merely to get it off our chest? If it is to elicit change, is confrontation the best approach? And then what do we do about our own sins in the interim?
I am not being facetious.
@ burntnorton:
That is what Justin Lee conveyed to me.
mot wrote:
This is proof positive. Cathy keeps his business closed on Sunday so employees can go to church. He still believes in traditional marriage. All he is down has changed his approach. He is called a “coward” by Perkins.
You cannot win. It is something I have learned through the years. you must lurch from issue to issue defined by others as “important” and you must do so immediately. No deviation allowed.
They have lost me and many others.
@ Daisy:
@ Daisy:
Daisy if you are comparing John Shore to Fred Phelps with any seriousness, I question your capacity for discernment. I make no judgments on who is a Christian, beyond extreme outliers, such as the Westboro Baptists who are obviously a group of bullies. Your examples are facetious and not that germane. Is American Protestantism the one true way to be a Christian, or should I take Christians at their word despite the 38,000 (and rising) denominations and practices that call themselves Christian? How many follow Matthew 19:21, or how many ignore Matthew 6:5-7? Are they now not Christian? Do you really want to be held to the letter of the Bible and not the spirit?
If you don’t like John Shore, nifty. Don’t read him. But please don’t ask me to join in your and Nicholas’ hunt for heretics.
@ Daisy:
After what they’ve encountered in the name of Christianity, I think Christians should count their blessings that there are gay Christians and that the homosexual community for the most part has no wish to treat Christians the way Christians have treated them, they simply want to live their lives.
Have a good day.
mot wrote:
We’ve seen this before, in the old USSR and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution:
Loyal Party Member one day, Enemy of The People in the next Purge.
Hester wrote:
Hester, every so often someone comes up with an animate neuter/indeterminate pronoun for English and tries to make it the next “Ms”. Never heard of “Xe” before, but SF authors and Furry Fandom have coined such words as “S/he”, “hir” and “sahn”. NONE of them have ever caught on.
dee wrote:
Let me put it this way. Cathy’s obviously not afraid of men like Perkins.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nor should he be, given his former status as a donator (sp?) he knows they need his money more then he needs them. My wife and I have boycotted Chick-Fil-A for a while (not a huge thing, considering we almost never ate there and our fast food day is Sunday)and we were talking about his change of heart and we appreciate his change of heart and more importantly his actions. I do hear their nuggets are tasty, perhaps we’ll try them sometime.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I wonder if that’s a limitation of the English language. I’ve read that some other languages have much more variety in gender pronouns.
dee wrote:
I am thinking of hiring out my family to cause a ruckus at other peoples family gatherings! I just couldn’t resist saying that. Sometimes after holiday gatherings I need something to help me recover!
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Slightly off-topic, but over here in recent years a by-product of the lack of common gender in English, and the historic use of the masculine to represent both, has emerged. I refer to the use of the word “child” to replace “son” when translating NT Greek. I get why “son” won’t do, because a woman is not individually a “son” of God. But instead, each of us is a “child” of God. The trouble is that “child” is not just common gender, it’s also diminutive. You might, for instance, talk about an older couple having “grown-up children” but you wouldn’t really refer to a “grown-up child”. A precious, precious little child…
The trouble is that our theology has followed our language so that believers have been systematically infantilised. Instead of taking our place as co-heirs with Christ, as kings and priests acting with wisdom, authority and responsibility, we’re just supposed to rest like beloved little sleeping babies in Daddy God’s loving arms (or his “womb of liquid love”, as I believe I’ve mentioned here before).
I don’t know to what extent that prevails in the US (although I note that the “womb of liquid love” phrase was written by a male American minister). But I’m fairly sure that a part of the appeal of yob theology like Park Fiscal’s is that men are just not interested in going to churches that treat them as babies and expect them to like it. Unfortunately, the options remain rather narrow for women who don’t want to be treated as babies.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick:
It is not easy for anyone but there comes a point where one must suffer the consequences for his or her beliefs and will not compromise them to keep his or her position.
Thanks for this post!
So… Tony Perkins “derided business leaders like Cathy who temper their positions on same-sex marriage in the name of business.”
Hey, Perkins. Any chance that Cathy was tempering his approach in the name of humanity? Or do you think that all the venom and suspicion leveled at the LGBT community is somehow “doing them good”?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I read somewhere, and I believe it was in Russell Moore’s book about adoption, that when Paul said we are all adopted as sons of God that would have been a really great way to say it because in that culture daughters did not have rights of inheritance, only sons did. So had he said “sons and daughters” it would have meant something different to them than if he used “sons” as an inclusive term.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yep! Don’want to be treated like a dumb sheep either . . .
@ Nancy:
Moore doesn’t believe women have the full rights of sons, unless he’s recently ditched his patriarchal views of men and women.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Can’t.
Breathe.
Laughing too hard. 🙂
dee wrote:
Yes, I want to know the answer to the challenge question, too. How exactly does one go about verbally expressing the hoary old Christianese favorite of “loving the sinner, hating the sin” in real life without getting the shi … er, snot righteously kicked out of oneself? 🙂
@ Rafiki:
Based on what I’ve heard from others who’ve been on the receiving end of this “love,” it consists of regularly making sure they know that they’re welcome to remain acquaintances as long as they don’t “stumble” (what that means can and does vary). If they do stumble, of course, it’s all off, and the shunning begins.
@ Rafiki:
I should add that I’ve never heard of this sort of ultimatum being given to people who could actually beat the ____ out of the ones giving it.
@ Nancy:
I’m sure that’s exactly the point: it relates to our inheriting all that Jesus has. In the same way that our being the Bride of Christ relates to the depth of intimacy we have with God. You don’t hear about the Church being the Partner of Christ, or how the Spouse has made themself ready and the wedding of the Lamb has come.
Perhaps the emphasis from the same scrippie today needs to be on the fact that we are heirs at all, and not just team mascots in heaven that God no longer hates us for being born. Though the patriarchal sub-culture seems determined to relegate women to that role and re-assert the inheritance of males only.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I am not being theological. I am talking about the use of words in language. And “son” and “daughter” may imply more than just sexual implications. And “child” does mean young, which leaves it out as a total-purpose word. And the plural is not the same as the singular. That’s all I am saying.
Sorry I did not make that plain.
@ Nancy:
Oh – sorry, got a bit carried away there. The whole Precious Little BabyChild™ thing is a biiiiiiig pet hate of mine…
Josh wrote:
Funny correlation, ain’t it? 🙂
And sadly, shunning is what I’ve witnessed first hand as the most obvious practical expression of “LTS, HTS.”
Thank God that we live in a time when our collective eyes (now including Dan Cathy’s!) are being opened to the offensive, one-sided, and moralistic application of “Christian tough love.”
@ HUG & Nick:
I think I’ve encountered “xe” mostly on feminist sites. Not sure how much currency it has outside those circles but does seem to at least meet the efficiency requirement. Personally, I use “they” which makes me a pronoun heretic to some. 🙂
Hester wrote:
A bit like using a preposition to end a sentence with. Which, of course, is a bit of a myth. In response to some grammatically “correct” but ridiculously up-itself prose, Winston Churchill famously said that it was a sentence up with which he would not put.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I don’t think I have run into that, but in re-reading your comment I can see where that would be a seriously inadequate way to go.
Ty 4 posting this article. I have a zillion things to do today, and I am trying to focus better on being productive….but I had a tiny, minuscule bone to pick with this paragraph of Boz’s post:
Part 2:
I think that the “Best Answer” at this link explains an idea pretty well:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100507102449AAzFpwJ
For me, the most healing Bible quote/commentary that I have read that has helped me to accept the pain of my childhood has been the idea of the Father temporarily turning His back on Jesus as he took on the punishment of everyone’s sins. I grew up feeling like I had to keep a horrible secret, and that the whole family’s back was always turned against me, for one thing or another.
While I think that what Boz wrote out was absolutely lovely and very healing, I just felt a need to add one more idea, that the Father turning his back on Jesus must have been a very dark moment for them both. They both know the pain and separation of losing a family, even temporarily.
Thank you, Deebs, for this post, and your wonderful commentary.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Other commenters love Designing Women. Suzanne was introduced to someone and said “Where ya’ll from?” the woman replied We’re from some place that doesn’t end a sentence with a preposition.” suzanne’s response: Where ya’ll from, b_t_h?
@ nmgirl:
I’ve heard the same joke but ending with the word “***hole” and set in London; but I like the idea!
In other news, I’ve finally updated the gallery on my award-winning * blog. Further evidence of sunshine on the west coast of Scotland!
* Winner, Best Gallery By A Blogger With One Munro Left To Do, 2014
Joy Huff wrote:
🙂
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
sinning thru questioning, anyone?
Marie2 wrote:
Marie, I have recently debated this particular verse with another who arrived at the same conclusion you have. I don’t see this. It’s true that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, but nowhere does scripture say God turned His back on His Son. The fact that Jesus calls out to His God, confirms (to me anyway) that it’s the humanity of Christ crying out His despair, pain, and sense of abandonment as the result of the agony He is suffering.
If scripture clearly stated that God did, in fact, turn His back on His Son, that would be a different story, but it doesn’t. Since Jesus was both God and man, this groaning from the cross is a cry from His human suffering imho.
@ Victorious:
Hiya Victorious!!!!
Ty for reading my post, and not being offended!!
Whoo-HOOOOO! That makes my day, that we can have differences of opinion, and not resort to Steven Segal/Kung foo fighting verbal tactics!!
I had thought of that interpretation while doing a discipleship Bible study thingy.
I think the booklet is put out by Vineyard Press, I know, perhaps not a reputable source, but seeing that interpretation helped me a great deal.
Anyway, just thinking about ALL of the abandonment socially that Jesus must have gone through is quite healing for me. Not to have Schadenfreude in an inappropriate way, just helps me with the loneliness that has come up, quite often, as a result of not being able to adequately explain my cr#p to people.
Yes, I struggle with the fact that the end of that Psalm is quite positive. My Presbyterian minister from high school preached a sermon that said that actually, Jesus ran out of breath, could not quote the whole Psalm, and back then people quoted the first verse of a Psalm, and everyone knew the rest.
Just good food for thought….
Cheers and a Happy Easter to you,
Marie2
@ Marie2:
from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+22
Psalm 22[a]
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.[b]
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.
19 But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you[f] I will fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!
Footnotes:
Psalm 22:1 In Hebrew texts 22:1-31 is numbered 22:2-32.
Psalm 22:2 Or night, and am not silent
Psalm 22:3 Or Yet you are holy, / enthroned on the praises of Israel
Psalm 22:15 Probable reading of the original Hebrew text; Masoretic Text strength
Psalm 22:16 Dead Sea Scrolls and some manuscripts of the Masoretic Text, Septuagint and Syriac; most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text me, / like a lion
Psalm 22:25 Hebrew him
Marie2 wrote:
No, I wasn’t offended one bit…don’t even know why I would be! 🙂
I am so happy that you found healing as a result of relating to Jesus’ feelings of abandonment. I have referred others to this post that truly gave me a better understanding of all the emotions Jesus experienced and how those enabled Him to relate to our failures and weaknesses. I hope it will be helpful to you in your journey from sorrow and pain to joy and peace.
The Emotional Jesus: His Ups and Downs
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/robertcrosby/2012/06/the-emotional-jesus-his-ups-downs/
@ Victorious:
There is another take on the saying from the cross of the first words in Psalm 22. It was that Jesus was not, in fact, stating that God had forsaken him but rather that he was referencing the entire Psalm 22, and the people who were there would have known the psalm. When you read that particular psalm it begins with a cry for help in verses 1-21 and then there is a turn in the opposite direction for the rest of the psalm which declares that indeed God had not forsaken the psalmist (v 24) and the rest of the psalm is praise to God for his faithfulness and for the fact (back to v 24) that “He has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.”
Isaiah said, regarding the messiah that it was “we” who hid as it were our faces from him.
So, it depends on whether Jesus was or was not making a reference to the entire psalm. And it depends on whether “hiding” one’s face is the same thing as “turning” one’s back.
At least, all of that is worth thinking about.
@ Marie2:
You posted while I was typing. OK, never hurts to say something more than once.
Nancy wrote:
Yes, yes, yes!!! Yay, team!!
Hahahaha. And who says that women can’t get along and work together??? 🙂
Victorious wrote:
Hi, I am just now learning to post about my issues without triggering people into thinking I have a helpless victim mentality, so they need to get the guns out to attack me, er um, FIX me….Lol….Maybe I just was in a super bad mood, with too much going on, when I have tried to express childhood sexual abuse to people in another forum, or maybe those people were not able to receive what I had to say…Who knows…But I guess I went through all of that so I could appreciate you kind people here at TWW… 🙂 🙂 🙂
Nancy wrote:
Hi Nancy,
Yes, it surely is worth talking about and know that I have no problem with those believing that God did turn His back on His Son. I just happen to object to reading something into scripture that’s not clearly there. I pretty much stick to the rule of thumb that if a verse is unclear in it’s meaning, we must search for it’s meaning throughout scripture. Since the only other place we find this belief about God’s abandonment is Psalm 22 and it doesn’t clarify that point, I see it more of an assumption than a truth. I also see it as Jesus’ fulfillment of His coming in the flesh which speaks to His human nature rather than His diety.
Victorious wrote:
Is this that “Scream of the Damned” shtick?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Ummm….HUG….Please please excuse my denseness today….what do you mean by that?
@ Victorious: yep!!! I cannot buy the “turned his back” thing. It seems completely incompatible with a God who is loving and merciful, and seems to come from a pretty hard line penal substitutionary atonement position.
I certainly do believe in *substitutionary* atonement, but minus the “penal” part. At any rate, substitutionary atonement is a pretty ancient understanding of the cross; PSA – not so much.
@ Nancy: very much agreed, Nancy.
@ Marie2:
D&D reported on Scream of the Damned a few years ago, not long after they started the blog. Weird sensationalized Neo-Calvinist thing.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/12/the-scream-of-the-damned-and-the-last-straw/
@ Hester:
Wow, what a nutty thing to claim…the scream of the Damned just sounds sooo over the top!!
Oh, ok…got it…I just asked my husband who grew up Episcopalian, while I grew up Presby about this whole issue of Psalm 22…He reminded me about the line from the Apostles Creed that “He descended into Hell”, which of course could just mean Hades, a place where the dead were, and not necessarily a place where His Father was not.
Again, as Nancy said, Good food for thought…
Interesting article from CT….
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/february7/31.74.html
Marie2 wrote:
Actually, I have not discussed this on the blog and I might do so in the near future-primarily from a debate POV.
There are a number of theologians who question this aspect of the Cross. Did the Father truly desert Jesus in His hour of pain? One cannot divorce this statement from the Trinity. Three persons who are also one. How can the One in 3 suddenly become the 2 in 3? Would it be akin to ripping apart one body?
Could it be that Jesus’ final words which included “My Father, my Father why have you forsaken me” may have come from the burden of sin that He was bearing, not from being deserted by the Father?
I am getting ready to travel to Wisconsin for a Christian medical conference (why they didn’t do it in Florida is beyond me-it is going to be quite cold) so I do not have time to deal with this in depth right now. Here is one post to get you going on the subject.
http://bentrigg.wordpress.com/2011/05/08/did-the-father-turn-his-face-away/
The longer I have thought about this, the more I wonder about the whole “Father turned His face away” thing since we find it in music, not the Bible.
margaret marquez wrote:
That statement used by a number of authoritarian ministries is one of the most ROFL stupid statements of all time.
Too many comments for me to process this afternoon. But I will answer/comment on a few.
@Nick – no, the person at EAster dinner who said the gospel was an offense didn’t go further in commenting. He generally seems to have a self-righteous attitude that I don’t have patience for.
@Dee – you made me hungry for a lobster roll. But I usually refuse to eat lobster unless I”m in New England. i refuse to pay $10 at Wegmans for a shrinking lobster roll.
@ Marie2: yes, the word “hell” is a mistranslation of the Greek. It is Hades.
In other news, Chelsea have parked the bus in their GiveUsYerMoney Cup semi-final in Madrid. On an unrelated note, Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho persistently criticises his opponents for their negative tactics when Chelsea can’t beat them. As I said – the Park Fiscal of fitba’ management.
I hope this is helpful.
Former CLC’er wrote:
I’m honoured!
Victorious wrote:
It’s astonishing what men can come up with from Holy Writ. You’re right, NOWHERE does Scripture say any such thing. The god which some have preached and manufactured out of thin air has more in common with the gods of the Greeks and the Canaanites. The God of Abraham isn’t anything like that.
@ dee & Former CLC’er:
Yankees unite! 😉
dee wrote:
When the words are combined with melody we tend to remember the words much better but we seem to forget that those are not the words, and quite possibly not the intent, meant by the writer of the scripture.
Victorious wrote:
Umm, Dee, you web master/mistress (another gender goofup of the English language), you are too kind in giving me an attribution that belongs instead to Victorious.
Just something to do on the plane before takeoff, lol….Correcting the attribution to the right person/comment.
And Yes I very much look forward to more discussion on this issue….at the proper juncture…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Awww, Nick….You Are SOOOO Humble….
Marie2 wrote:
Seriously, I do believe you are humble…Just felt like messing with ya…Totally digging on those lovely pictures that you posted of the Isle of Skye…
Dee–yes, I believe it is all about the money. One thing to honestly disagree, another to flip flop to protect profits. I generally ask no questions in the market, as per Paul, but a flip flop smells smarmy to me.
Let me phrase it this way: I don’t ask a baker if they do gay weddings. But IF they make it an issue (one I would agree with) not to do them, sales drop or they get bad press, and they flip flop, THEN I wouldn’t use them.
linda wrote:
Hi, sorry for the over abundance of comments, but I just wanted to say that I hear ya, Linda….I just don’t know if there is enough info publicly available – I guess I am too lazy right now to check on that – to see if there was a sales drop while the controversy was going on…
Josh wrote:
…and did you forget something??? How about cow-tipping for fun??? Just had to add that, because I miss your wonderful sense of humor today….
Marie2 wrote:
There was a sales increase!
@ linda:
Why do you think he did it to protect profits? His sales have increased since the controversy and they have overtaken KFC.
@ Marie2:
Glad you like Skye! Me too – photographs just take themselves up there! (Er – figuratively speaking, of course.)
I often reflect on how my humility puts others’ to shame. Perhaps I should write a book; I could call it, simply, “Humility”. Now that would be a
cash cowblessing for the Body of Christ…dee wrote:
Well, okey dokey then….so it was not in his business interest to make this decision? Wow, that’s cool…
@ dee:
Dee, I was a mediator for almost 30 years before I became an attorney. And all that experience was insufficient to become a member of the “Attorney-Mediator” organizations, b/c they have a particular was to “mediate” and that requires being an attorney for years and years first. Handled some big, volatile multiparty mediations (environment, labor, safety, etc.) and a few messy divorce mediations. The key to my approach is to get the parties to talk with each other. Attorneys prefer to keep the parties from talking with each other. How that ever truly works is questionable. So, let us work on talking together, even if a neutral third party is necessary to help with rules of the game and a little refereeing.
@ Nancy:
In the Biblical contexts, we are all heirs of God.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
hmmmm. ..I agree for the most part, but if you want to be truly known as humble, you could always ghost write the book for me, letting me take all the credit and revenue, to fund my trip to the Isle of Skye…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Too late. 🙂 It’s already been written.
http://www.amazon.com/Humility-Greatness-C-J-Mahaney/dp/1590523261
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Awww…that was totally heartless of you, Beenthere!! Now all of my hopes of manipulating Nick B into writing that book, and helping me fulfill some travel desires are all dashed!!!
@ dee:
“Could it be that Jesus’ final words which included “My Father, my Father why have you forsaken me” may have come from the burden of sin that He was bearing, not from being deserted by the Father?”
+++++++++++++++
Just because Jesus spoke words (or words that have been ascribed to him) does not mean they are factually correct. Like the mustard seed, described as smallest seed in the world (which I understand can be contradicted by any “seed expert”).
In his humanity, during those 33 years walking on earth, I don’t think he ever knew everything (certainly knew much, and increasingly so, but never everthing).
To be human, he had to have feelings and emotions that weren’t always grounded in reality. Such as depression, loneliness, discouragement, exasperation, frustration, embarrassment. I’m sure Jesus told at least one joke and the punch line fell flat. He was an adolescent, a teen ager. He may have had a crush on someone, but left it alone (or maybe he kissed). I suspect he did the things boys coming of age do privately as their bodies change (can’t quite bring myself to put it all into words). He wasn’t this ethereal entity sort of float-walking an inch off the ground with this otherworldly perma-tranquil facial expression.
I think it’s incorrect to see Jesus as so perfect that he wouldn’t mistake the trauma of the cross ordeal for abandonment by God the Father. God the Father may very well have been holding his hand, speaking words of love and comfort. In such a moment, any comfort those things may have given was no match for the circumstances which Jesus as human being was experiencing.
@ elastigirl:
Have you ever read “Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal” by Christopher Moore? It’s a comedy, but it actually addresses some of what you’re saying here. You might enjoy it.
@ Albuquerque
Blue:
haven’t heard of it. how crass is it? of course, that’s such a relative concept. i feel great respect for Jesus Christ, (for lack of a better word, and without resorting to words that overstate the truth of my feelings). does the book maintain a level of…respect, is guess, for him?
@ elastigirl:
Yeah, well maybe–all you said. And then again maybe not. And well maybe to this or that that somebody else said, or not. And maybe or maybe not to whatever I might think or think that I might think. And there certainly are extra-canonical writings containing childhood stories of Jesus which may or may not contain some truth, but who knows. The point that I am trying to make is that there is a lot that we have not been told. I am thinking that there must be some reason why we have not been told some things. Like basically the bulk of his bio up until his public ministry. And the fact that we don’t know any details of what he looked like, other than some general suppositions. Maybe we have not been told for a reason. I am really hesitant to speculate very much because I think, like Mot said about our ideas about God being more like the ancient Greek etc. gods than like the God of Abraham. I am thinking that speculating may lead me/us (humanity) further in the wrong direction.
This whole idea of why we were not told more information, and whether or not we should be speculating would also be good food for thought over time.
Wow! Thank you for changing the banner to announce this:
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/
from a CLC family email/letter…
“We wanted the church family to be aware that Robin Boisvert and Grant Layman have received subpoenas to appear as witnesses in the Morales trial. This represents an opportunity to pray for wisdom if they testify and to lift up prayers for all who have been affected by sexual abuse. “
@ nmgirl:
We’re from some place that doesn’t end a sentence with a preposition.”
The words “a preposition” are the last two words in that sentence, so that lady did end her sentence with “a preposition”!!!!!
@ Hester:
A group that I was in in the ’70s in Michigan, about 40 total, would order in great steaks, seafood, etc. for everyone and fix appropriately in the back commons. We once had 40 lobsters air shipped in, put a very large kettle on with some herbs and spices it in, tied a string around each lobster and each person took their lobster, made one loop around the pot with theirs, and then ate. Fantastic Maine live lobsters flown in.
Marie2 wrote:
How could I forget that?!? Thanks for reminding me!
In the evenings, we can also play cornhole, which, despite the relative proximity, has nothing to do with corn, or with … well, what you’re probably thinking if you’re not thinking about throwing beanbags at slanted boards with holes drilled in them. 😮
Josh wrote:
Oh phew, I’m relieved to hear this. I thought I was going to have to call shenanigans on your living Out West, and I was waiting on doing so, because I thought maybe there is a better moment for that than right now…So relieved that I don’t need to do that. Hope you are winning your game of cornhole tonight….Out East, we play Cards Against Humanity a whole lot….I might have won that game only one time, but it’s loads of fun…
FYI…I live in LA, arguably one of the most gay friendly cities. There’s a Chick Fil A, 2 drive in lanes and it’s always packed. It’s not in orange county, which is the conservative bastion of LA. I would have assumed that business would have gone down due to Cathy’s public declarations, but apparently not. I said I wasn’t going to go there due to his remarks, but truthfully I’ve gone twice. That chicken sandwich is something special.
@Daisy…I don’t understand your post. Like you, I am a virgin. I’ve got lots of really good friends who live with their significant others. It’s not really a topic of discussion now, but in grad school, most of my friends knew I didn’t plan to have sex until I got married. When I’m visiting my friends who live together, I don’t feel a need to tell them, they’re living in sin. It absolutely never comes up. When I was younger, I used to have slight righteous indignation about it. Essentially, I patted myself on the back for following the rules while they weren’t. Now I’m better at seeing their humanity and my humanity. I may not be having sex, but I can definitely work on being kind and generous. Sometimes I deal with a jealous streak. There are tons of people who think you can’t really be a Christian if the female isn’t covering her hair or cutting her hair. I’m not worried. I’ve been through too much with God. I know we have a relationship. I suspect Christians who are also gay don’t need your approval for their relationship with God either. You’ve got your relationship as do they. God doesn’t need you to decide who’s in and who’s out. He also really doesn’t need you to correct because I’m guessing you’ve got a lot of things to work on in your own life. I know I do!
I think it’s totally fine you’ll probably never attend a Christian church that marries a gay couple. I will never join the Catholic church or 7th Day Adventist. I can’t speak on the salvation of those individuals though.
@ Nancy:
i don’t see my thoughts so much as speculation as just using my imagination in remembering that Jesus was/is 100% human being, and wondering about it all. No conjectures.
To me, the 100% God part tends to totally overshadow his humanity. I think his humanity is the most striking part of the whole story. Kind of like the way negative space in art it just as important as the object it surrounds — the image/object means nothing without the negative space. Or, in music, the relationship between sound and silence. The no sound (the rests) or scant sound (few notes as opposed to many) defines the sound. The sound of music would be nothing without it being mixed with the sound of silence.
dee wrote:
You reminded me of something that the late Bishop Fulton Sheen once said in an interview, when asked about who will be in Heaven: “Oh, I think we should all be so surprised to be there ourselves that no one will have any thought about who else makes it”.
I have no doubts whatsoever that the good bishop is in Heaven. And I strongly suspect that he was, indeed, just happy to have made it, without the need to judge anyone else.
Taylor Joy wrote:
Ah, yes. Thank you, Taylor Joy; you speak my mind.
Everytime I struggle and think there is hope, I listen to Paul Washer, pretty much all of us are lost and God cant wait to take us out, torture our souls in hell, the resurrect us in our perfect bodies only to torture us for eternity. Um am I the only one that finds such theology well, stupid? Dont believe me Paul Washer thinks 16 month old babies if they had the strength of an 18 year old that, that baby would beat their father to death and walk across their fathers dead and bloodied corpse with said shinny watch with no remorse. In my line of work I actually know people with the Cognitive level of a 16 month – 2 year old and not one of them is violent and they are extremely strong.
Is it me or do we all think such nonsense is stupid on its face. It is stupid, please it really is. I get the whole we are degenerate God hating pieces of filth. Trust me I get that, daily. God hates me, with a personal and eternal passion, I get that to. But I dont want to kill anyone, never have. I cant even get that right. Folks this is just silly, these folks dont need to be rebuked they need to be laughed at and mocked. Granted they would love that but satire really is a powerful tool. They use it why not us. Babies are, um guess what, Babies they dont think like adults and one cannot attribute to them adult thinking, that is, well silly. What utter nonsense, even those they use big words and speak with passion what they say is silly, babies do not wish to kill their parents, they are what they are, they are babies.
@ elastigirl:
That is an awesome analogy. What I am saying, within that analogy, is that what we do not know about the life, and feelings and experiences of Jesus, constitute a silence. And I am thinking that those silences perhaps serve a purpose which I personally might want to retain, and further that it just might be part of the divine plan to have such silences.
Now, maybe the silences are put there to enable people to speculate / use their imagination. I don’t know. But I hold my imaginations suspect. It would not, however, be fair or necessarily accurate of me to hold your imaginations suspect, obviously.
And yes, He was fully man and fully God. And no, we don’t really understand that.
“Dee will be involved in Christian medical group activities in Wisconsin this week and North Carolina next week. She will be in and out.Please bear with us.”
Heart transplants? 🙂
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
@ Marie2:
Well, obviously, I know it’s already been done. But it seems that, these days, that doesn’t stop it being done again.
brian wrote:
That is your first mistake. Do not listen to Washer. I totally, absolutely, etc., etc. disagree with him!!!!! His very view negates the functioning of grace. It is Jesus+++++++++++++ (ad infinitum).
My pastor says that the need for grace continues for our whole life on this earth. We will continue to fall. Oh, we might look better on the outside, but inside we still struggle. Christ’s grace brings you great freedom. You no longer have to try so hard and inevitably become discouraged and anyone following Washer will end up being discouraged or they will need to “cook the books” and pretend they are one step below Jesus and the apostles on the holiness scale.
I have an assignment for you. Please go to the blog link called Apt to Teach and find Abrahamson’s teaching on grace. Plug in grace in the search engine and read the files on radical grace. Prepare to feel better.
@ TW:
We all need heart transplants and tune ups on occasion. 🙂
Its also nice being with others who want their practice of medicine to reflect their faith. The thing I like about this group is they are inclusive of all denominations and include Catholics as well. They have a simple statement of faith. The meetings are interesting. We meet academics, Mennonites, missionaries, big city docs, rural practice docs, etc.
Last year I had a great lunch conversation with the father of guy with the red guitar in Lady Antebellum. He taught his son to play guitar and they used to play together at church. He told us the story of how his son became a member of that group. Dad is still a small town doc in the south.
Brian, I could not agree with you more! It is just monstrous for Washer to think about babies that way and it leads to cruel methods of child rearing that lack any understanding of child development.
I have pictures of my little toddler grandson looking at his mother and father with such adoration that my heart melts. I watch him running around playing and then take a quick detour to hug his mother or father and go back to playing. He loved apples, but when eating one he will always offer some to his mother or father if they don’t have one. He wants to share. He does not want to kill his father for his watch.
I don’t believe that God created hopelessly depraved people. Why would He want to do that? Do parents want hopelessly depraved children? I think he created people with free will which means that sometimes we sin. And sometimes we act with sacrificial love for others and that includes atheists.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, I hear you….and I would love to read your own take on humility, in book form, even if I cannot take all of the profits, lol….It sounds like you have real life experience with it, unlike some people who will not be named, and who write books on that topic in spite of the fact that they could not find humility, even if it bit them on the nose….
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I know, right?
“What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.”
Ad nauseum.
Nick, those new photos are beautiful! Thank you for sharing the Scottish scenery.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Make that ad nauseam.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“I’ve finally updated the gallery on my award-winning * blog. Further evidence of sunshine on the west coast of Scotland!”
+++++++++++++++++++
totally gorgeous.
i did a virtual road trip on google maps through Glen Etive area… very fun. people on the side of the road even turned their head to look at me. I passed many tents alongside a stream. the newest entry on my bucket list is to hike and camp in Glen Etive.
dee wrote:
“One step below”?
It doesn’t stay “one step below”; it becomes “one step Above”.
Taylor Joy wrote:
Just another form of “What’s Yours is Mine and what’s Mine is Mine. I. WIN.”
Brian, don’t listen to Washer. Both Calvinistic and Arminian reformed people do teach “total depravity” but it isn’t what you describe. It means we are tainted by sin in our thoughts, bodies, emotions, will, you name it, our total being.
Neither teaches God hates us and cannot wait to take us out. Arminians teach God’s prevenient grace is given to all enabling us to turn to Him. Calvinists limit saving grace to a certain number only if they are full 5 pointers. Many also believe that enabling grace reaches all.
Either way, those that really understand their respective systems do NOT teach that total depravity means we are completely and totally bad. All they teach is that each part of is affected by the fall. And even most Calvinists don’t teach that God can hardly wait to take us out. Rather, they teach He can hardly wait to save. Even many of the 5 pointers believe common grace from God aids a better life even for the non elect. Not all of them teach, either, that God will fry forever all the non elect.
Happy Calvinists are just happy and downright giddy to be on their way to heaven, and want to tell all knowing God will save some. All who seek show they are elect and so can be saved. Happy Arminians are happy and giddy to be saved and want to tell all knowing many will come to Christ through His enabling grace freely given to all who seek.
It is only the emotionally twisted, be they Calvinist or Arminian or Lutheran or Roman Catholic or whatever that turn the good news of God’s love and God’s willingness to pay the ultimate sacrifice for our sin into a rant about how God hates us.
linda wrote:
Are they projecting their hatred of their own worminess onto God, or are they projecting their worminess onto other people because they hate them? Or both at the same time? Hmmmm …
Any way you look at, they’re neither loving God nor loving their neighbor. 🙁
@ Jenny:
But it’s OK; the Substitutionary Death Of Jesus On The Cross opened up a wormhole into heaven.
In other news – it’s very quiet today. Is everyone OK?
linda wrote:
There’s another option here Brian, one that makes more sense to me than Augustine’s notion of an ethereal & inherited ‘sin’ quantity that ‘taints’ all that we are. I’ll agree that all humans have an inclination toward evil, but inclination is NOT the same thing as an alleged taint inherited from Adam. We also have a divine nature that we can choose to cultivate or not cultivate, much like the Native American parable of the two wolves within. One is kind and good, the other mean and cruel, the one we feed is the one that wins. Make your own application Brian, and don’t let others do your thinking and homework for you.
Speaking of ChickFilA, I will no longer eat there but not due to politics. They changed the one menu item I could safely eat, naked grilled chicken nuggets, and put a nasty artificial garlic butter on them. That made for a fun 3 day, 1400 mile drive back from Utah. I plan on indulging in a large, juicy steak and giant bowl of salad tonight. And as long as I am rambling and talking about food, Costa Vida is my new favorite fast food chain (giant yummy gf salads) but they need to expand quickly so more people can enjoy the yumminess.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“In other news – it’s very quiet today. Is everyone OK?”
++++++++++++++++++++
I’ve made some fascinating comments.
@ elastigirl:
Very true – it’s just that everything stopped at 2pm TWW time.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Refresh my memory please – I’ve been traveling way too much over the past two weeks. Which time zone is TWW time in? After 3300 miles in 2 weeks my mind is a bit muddled.
@ Mandy: Eastern Daylight.
@ Muff Potter: gotta agree!
@ dee:i
I recently spent some time transcribing the Panel Discussion between RC Sproul, Sinclair Ferguson & CJ Mahaney at a Ligonier conference in 2012.
Aside from Mahaney’s contribution (if you want to call it that), Sproul and Ferguson shared some good stuff.
Sinclair Ferguson was asked this question: “Since Jesus knew all the scriptures that were prophecies about Himself including Isaiah 53, why would he pray in the Garden of Gethsemane , ‘Let his cup pass from Me’ when He was undoubtedly aware that He must fulfil all prophecy?”
I liked his answer: “Well, there’s a short answer to that that will take us all eternity to work through. And I think the short form answer is that holy humanity must always find being forsaken by God wholly repulsive. If I can even put it this way: holy humanity cannot positively will to be forsaken by God simply in terms of the act of forsakenness. And I think we only touch the heart of the crisis of the cross when we realize that the Father was asking the Son to do something that was contrary, not only to, as it were, divine instinct in the relationship, but contrary to the instinct of a truly holy human being. And we are so sullied by sin that we tend to be almost incapable of thinking that way.”
Say hi to my fellow cheeseheads!
Sorry my bad, it was the 2008 Ligonier National Conference, not 2012.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
In other news – I’m right jealous of where you live! Your gallery photos are breathtaking. I wish we’d visited Scotland when my husband was well.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
You want to see something really twisted. Something isn’t right here because those that taut they are the upholders of traditional morality (whatever that is ) don’t stand very high in the public opinion pole. Next thing people will be running away from the term evangelical like they they have baptist. I have a sense what upsets people is hypocrisy. It upsets me and I think evangelical is a nice term.
Sorry here is the website
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/shocker-poll-homosexuals-are-viewed-more-favorably-than-evangelical-christi
A friend wrote this as her FB status:
“In case you’re wondering why you can’t “just get over it” from a painfully abusive or damaging or destructive relationship: Trauma bonding makes any relationship harder to end, harder to heal, harder to find freedom from through forgiveness, than the loss of a true love. The neural pathways burned into a brain in trauma bonding are laid down in powerful fear/anxiety hormonal rushes leaving even comparatively good memories with the person colored with the stains of those traumatic events. The loss of anyone we have loved — whether they have treated us very well indeed or in a deplorable manner — is something that will heal best in long, loving talks with wise friends and counselors… and Jesus. HE went through a bit of trauma bonding and betrayal, too, right?”
With her permission, that prompted a new blog post, Bonding & Bondage in Abusive Relationships, which you can find here: http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2014/04/bonding-and-bondage-in-abusive.html
I liked Chick A Flay (kidspeak) before I ever knew the founder was Christian. I liked Ben & Jerry’s ice cream (oh, for some Cherry Garcia right NOW) before I ever knew they were liberal. I liked Cook-Out before they built dining rooms in which they play Christian music.(Never heard of Cook-Out? A zillion milkshake flavors, and the food is cheap, as opposed to the pricey CFA — and they’re springing up like dandelions all over the south.) I love Bojangles because you can get breakfast biscuits all day long, and I have no idea what the CEO of Boj’s believes.
I’d admire Dan Cathy even if I didn’t have Sunday cravings for a Chick A Flay sandwich on wheat bread with extra pickles, no mayonnaise, no nothing, and a big ‘ol glass of iced tea. He built a better chicken sandwich, and the South beat a path to his door. By many accounts, he’s a fine man — and he’s made plenty of mistakes, just like any other entrepreneurial person. We can learn from his successes as well as his mistakes.
I loved Shane Windemeyer’s story of how he changed his mind about Dan Cathy and CFA — and how Mr. Cathy changed his mind about him. His article first came ou right after gay friend of mine de-friended me on FB because I posted photos of some friends dressed up as cows to get free CFA sandwiches. He mentioned to another friend that he was tired of my anti-gay Baptist views. It seemed ludicrous that I had to write to him and say that I was neither Baptist nor anti-gay, just because I like CFA sandwiches. I explained to him that I actually do not oppose gay marriage. We patched up, and I’m glad we’re still friends. So — to be called pro- or con- something because of a food preference? That’s nuts.
Most of the time, it boils down to whether or not I like the food. Same with music — though I did stop listening to the Dixie Chicks when their speech became abrasive to my ears. Actors — well, I’d just rather judge their work than hear them spout political/religious rhetoric on talk shows.
If I were to find out that my favorite watering hole funded Planned Parenthood or terrorist cells, I definitely would stop buying their products.
But most of the time, the proof is simply in the pudding. If you like it, fine. If you don’t, eat elsewhere.
@ Mark:
not shocking at all. the gay and lesbian people I know are so very kind & gracious. the most hateful, obnoxious and unkind people I’ve known are Christians. how about that.
@ Mark:
Thanks for the link Mark. Yeah, I think that hypocrisy can be the killer of respect and standing of any group or cause that claims a moral high ground. It kind of makes me sad what seems to be happening to Evangelicals. I have friends and family who identify in that sect of Christianity, and they are good people, fine people that I admire and love. They are not being well served by their public face. An odd thought from an atheist perhaps. I just don’t like seeing peoples beliefs and public perception being marred and twisted.
It is frustrating to see the bad press evangelical-ness gets; in reality, though, there’s no denying that we (small “e” evangelicals) have to take some responsibility for changing it. For generations now, most of what we’ve done has boiled down to calling people sinners and shouting at them as though they owed it to us to join our tribe. But we’ve given them no reason to believe us. I think the basic fallacy we’ve fallen for stems from our replacing a living God with a book. We enjoy studying and interpreting that book, therefore we assume that any proverbial “True Scotsman” will also change his entire life around just because we quote him some scribshers.
Violence again women (and men) is a society wide problem, not just within the evangelical subculture. I was listening to the Dianne Rehm show this morning and what was very interesting is that views of the patriarchy movement are basically giving sanction to cultural views that exist in the wider culture. And the response of such secular institutions such as Harvard University to a sexual assault case is that it isn’t sexual assault because “there was no penetration.” And somehow Harvard defined it as consensual. We can discuss Doug Phillips but the example of his behavior happens every day even in modern secular culture. The violence against women act looks interesting, but please don’t forget men and children. We have way too much violence in our culture, let alone within evangelicalism.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Oh, Nick. There you go preaching my favorite sermon again. What is it going to take, anyhow? Just a day or two ago I was reading the daily C S Lewis devotional via e-mail that I subscribe to and it was similar to what you were saying, except he was saying that people don’t want a real live God since there is no telling what he might do. The especially do not want one who might be (to use his words)” king and hunter and husband.” How much safer to just have some sort of idea about God confined to the mind, or better yet just some massive impersonal force. But a real live person? No way.
Well, score one for the Brits when they produced that one.
@ Mark:
A good point to bring up Mark. The Harvard case you’re referencing made me see red when I heard about it. The thing of it is, when someone claims either divine favor or superior religious morality, they will naturally be held to a higher standard, since that is what they are claiming. That is what Evangelicals, mainline Christians, Roman Catholics, Muslims, and Jews (religion not culture)really have to face if they don’t want to destroy their credibility or witness. This needs to be stamped quickly and hard. We all hate those who oppress the weak or use people as a means to an end, but we dislike and are appalled more by those that try to cloak their evil in a veneer of goodness.
Good thing there are blogs and people in those beliefs speaking out, and that internet is making it harder to keep such stuff in the shadows. Speaking out about this stuff helps beyond just cleaning up your own faiths, it provides a road map and practices to avoid as much as possible the same situations for those newer and expanding religions (neo pagans, possibly the emergent church, etc…) and even those without a religion or supernatural component(atheist, Pastafarian, Humanist, agnostic). That is a good thing speaking out about such things does. Keeps me hopeful and confirms a core belief I have in humanity. We can do such dark things to each other, but we can also do such good. Better to light a candle then curse the darkness, eh?
Heh, waxing a little philosophical today. TL;DR I agree with you.
@ Nancy:
That reminds me of a quote from Granny Weatherwax, character of Terry Pratchett’s (another Brit, lucky people) Discworld series.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Whoa, that guy can write. I assume “Terry” is a guy. I will have to check him out, if the rest of his stuff is good. Thanks for the tip. And I do know some people who practice religion that way or think they should, or think that I should while they do not do so themselves. Man, I get so tired of that idea, some kind of religion that is a cross between working yourself to death and having some sort of compulsion. So then Jesus comes along with statements like “my peace I leave with you” and if you are doing like Pratchett says people do, then you think “peace?, are you kidding me, you are killing me man, trashing my life.” What a destructive way to live. Oh, well, God does not need me to explain him or defend him. I just get a bit (deleted) about some stuff. Nice talking to you. I have really taken notice of some of your comments. Some good stuff.
@ Nancy:
Nancy, Terry Pratchett is an amazing writer. Probably my favorite of all time. If you enjoy British humour, he’ll be your cup of tea. The Guards series is excellent, but it’s all one big connected series/world.
Nice talking with you as well. ^_^
Good morning, delurking to share this as I thought you all would be interested especially since Nick showed us his bonnie pics of climbing Munros in Scotland: http://www.scotland.org/infographics/munros-of-scotland/
Nancy wrote:
Indeed he is: Sir Terence David John Pratchett, OBE, to give him his Sunday name.
Though only 65, Pratchett has been battling early-onset Alzheimer’s for the last 7 years. He has done a great deal of work, privately and publicly, to contribute towards a better understanding of the disease; making, for instance, a BBC documentary exploring his own experience and that of others. An interesting chap, in the best sense of the word.
@ Jenny:
Yes, we do get spoilt living here (I’m not Scottish, as I’ve occasionally mentioned; I “emigrated” from England 24 years ago). It does rain quite a lot – there is no Gaelic phrase for “hosepipe ban” – but when the weather’s clear, it’s worth the wait.
I’m sorry to hear of your husband’s illness, though.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I do my humble best to provide occasional samples.