“I like to be admired from afar, and then complimented up close.” ― Gena Showalter link
Post undated at 2:30 EST
Recently, there have been some pundits who say that blogs have no business in pointing out problems with certain pastors or churches. We should "let the leadership and the members" deal with it.
- So, when a pastor markets himself to the world via books, speeches and other resources, we should just shut up?
- When pastors use placement services to get their book to "Number 1" and then tell us to buy it, we should hush?
- When the group formerly known as Campus Crusade invites Driscoll to speak to a large university and Deb's daughter, instead of asking about the gospel, starts talking about anal sex after she attends the talk, we are supposed to zip the lip?
Nope- when churches and pastors export their nonsense, they have lost the right to "deal with it quietly" and we have the right to discuss, recommend or pan Driscoll and the stuff he, and you, wants us to buy.
Members of Mars Hill need to ask themselves some questions. Update4/3: I now see how this could be read and I wish I had said it differently. Here is what I wish I had said. Where were the enablers of Mark Driscoll during this time? How could leaders sit back and see person after person take hits? Where were these leaders when 1000 people walked out? What in the world were the leaders of seminaries, churches and conferences doing inviting this man ? Is it all really about who draws the people and the bucks?
- Why is it that two women who live clean across the country were amongst the ones to spot the problems with Driscoll and to call him on it almost 5 years ago? Where were you-Christian leaders?
- Who were the Mars Hill leaders that allowed this craziness to continue-not only allow it but spent church money to promote it?
- Why after years of controversy after controversy, did you not act? The 2006 book Confessions of Reformission Rev was a harbinger of things come at Mars Hill and you apparently ignored the clues. Why? Did you think he was cool because he talked about cage fighting and got people with tattoos to come to church?
When we learned about the events surrounding the firing of Bent Meyer and Paul Petry, we knew that there were serious problems with Mark Driscoll. The arrogance of Driscoll is evident in this video as he discusses attitude towards elders who disagree with him. Mars Hill enablers: where were you? Perhaps laughing along with everyone else in the video? Yeah-it was really funny…Then you give this guy $200,000 to promote himself. What is wrong with this picture?
Well, the inevitable revolt has occurred and Mark "I See Things" Driscoll didn't see it coming, maybe because it had nothing to do with sex. If this mess is not handled properly, there will be continuing conflict at Mars Hill and it will get worse. It is time for decent men and women to step up to the plate and deal with it.
Two years ago, Bent Meyer told his story at TWW. Paul Petry told his story shortly thereafter. These are two wonderful men who were godly assets to Mars Hill. Their firings stand as living testimonies to the lack of real gospel leadership at Mars Hill.
Oh yeah, while I am at it, Mars Hill has lots and lots of videos and audios. Can anyone in Mars Hill share with the world the video of the man with the machete rushing Mark Driscoll in the pulpit? We have been asking about this for years and Driscoll has discussed this incident on a number of occasions…
Today, Bent Meyer addresses what to do if you are asked to meet with Mark Driscoll for reconciliation. Bent is an expert counselor and has training and experience in working with situations that involve conflict resolution. However, in this post he is speaking as a private citizen, not in his role as counselor. Listen to him very carefully. In our opinion he is a wise man as well as being far nicer than this adorable blogger.
I learned an important lesson when I went to business school. There are explicit rules of the game and implicit rules of the game. The explicit rules of the game are those which are stated up front, usually in writing. The implicit rules are not expressed; they are insinuated. Unfortunately, these implicit rules can dominate the tone and direction of the conversation and seriously affect the outcome of your meeting…
Bent Meyer
At the end of this post is an article I think might be helpful in understanding what we, and other congregations, have experienced from Narcissistic pastors. Narcissistic pastors sometimes align themselves with other Narcissists. The post provides some useful information on how to confront the issue. It also exposes the part we (past pastors) contributed to the harm perpetrated on others. We did this personally. Also, we failed by not did confining Mark Driscoll to strict accountability.
My network is small. Joanne and I have felt like we had vanished from the lives of so many; especially from those in whom we had invested so much of our time and friendship. It appears from some sources that Mark and others have been telling people that all was well between the two of us. This implies that I have no objections to what has happened or what has emerged since. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
My concern is that Mark is likely meeting with various people secretly. This would give him cover along with the appearance of repentance and no proof of content discussed. Thus, the encounter will devolve into dismissing the account of those that have been harmed. Remember, he has the only access to the microphone.
I would strongly recommend to anyone that will be drawn into talking with Mark, face to face, to bring a witness or witness to the meeting. Never be alone! Be clear what your repentance expectations look like. Be prepared to give Mark a clear list of repentance expectations.
Here are some ideas:
- There are personal awareness expectations. He needs to be able to describe, in detail, his conflicted internal world. This will likely take years of help from a professional therapist. Remember, even though this will be wrenching for him and for those who put him on a pedestal, in the end, if real change occurs, it will be life giving, not only to him but for those that could be influenced by him many years from now.
- There needs to be attitude changes in how he relates to all of the people he encounters, particularly women. He marginalizes many of those with whom he relates. He needs to show mutual respect within every venue: private, public and in his own mind.
- There is expected behavior. He must resign from all positions that provide him with power and control. Because he employs power and control to shame others and his future, he must not be allowed to avail himself of it.
- Make the following perfectly clear. He must remove himself from all public and leadership influence immediately. Others must deal with an orderly succession process.
- He must be accountable to local men and women not chosen by him.
Then write a contemporaneous account of the meeting immediately after the meeting and send a copy to Mark and your witness/s. Give them the opportunity to correct the content. Tell him upfront that you will be doing this. State, " A no reply will be understood as validating the content of the transcript and will be made available for others to read."
The following link is to the well articulated article that I referred to above: Responding to the Narcissistic Personality Disordered Pastor.
I am writing this as a private citizen, not as a professional therapist. Thus, what I have written is opinion only.
Back to Dee
For our readers, I have included some quotes from the above linked post.
Why do NPD pastors seem to operate with impunity for so long? First, it’s because most people, congregations, and denominations do not know about or understand the dynamics of NPD. Secondly, the Church is a place of ongoing attitudes and practices of graciousness, kindness, and forgiveness. The only problem is, these do not ever really help or heal the person with NPD; they only serve to hide and protect them.
A central characteristic of NPD is the consistent craving the individual has for others to react to them.
It therefore becomes important not to react to the NPD, but it is also very important not to ignore them, as this will usually result in their rage.
In church settings, the majority of NPD pastors are covert in their displays of narcissism. This covertness often leads to a pattern of secrets: secret meetings, secret interactions, secret dirt digging, and secret decisions. All this secrecy comes about because the covert NPD is always working to preserve the honorable, perfect pastor image while continuing to engage in what is essentially sick and sinful behaviors.
Resisting the urge to simply take an NPD for their word is fundamental to avoiding being deceived by their pathological confabulations, exaggerations, half-truths, and red herrings.
Once identified, the NPD pastor will require a strong and decisive lay leadership that responds in a timely manner in order to contain and halt the damage.
An expected development is the attempt of the NPD pastor to shape committees and councils into passive bodies that engage in ‘group think’.
…informed, positive, and assertive response by lay leadership and denominational leadership is imperative if the great damage of NPD pastors is to be contained and healed.
If you get a chance, Google "Narcissistic Pastors." You will have weeks of reading ahead of you.
You might find these links helpful in keeping up with developments at Mars Hill. The stories and confessions are amazing.
REPEAL THE BYLAWS – EXONERATE PASTORS PETRY & MEYER
Also, TWW want to take this opportunity to applaud the work of both Dr. Warren Throckmorton who blogs at Patheos and Dr. James Duncan who blogs at Pajama Pages. They have been a most welcome addition in observing the "goings on" at Mars Hill and other mega-churches. Cue applause.
Lydia's Corner: Lamentations 3:1-66 Hebrews 1:1-14 Psalm 102:1-28 Proverbs 26:21-22
First?
I find it extremely telling that one needs to read a list on how to handle meeting with this pastor.. . .
As far as this “Why is it that two women who live clean across the country were the ones to spot the problems with Driscoll and to call him on it almost 5 years ago?”, maybe the Church needs to start listening to us ladies, huh?
No More Perfect wrote:
It would almost certainly cost us a broken nose and the rest of our lives under the bus, but it would be a price worth paying imo.
@ No More Perfect:
Yep
I linked to a post we wrote a couple of years ago called Brother Mark’s Traveling Sex Show. I just left this update on that post because something hit me.
Update: 4/2/14: I was listening to Neil Diamond’s song are the end of this post. For some reason, it struck me that Diamond shows far more humility on the subject of faith than Brother Mark…
Listen to the entire song and see if you catch my drift.
Also, TWW want to take this opportunity to applaud the work of both Dr. Warren Throckmorton who blogs at Patheos and Dr. James Duncan who blogs at Pajama Pages have been a most welcome addition in observing the “goings on” at Mars Hill and other mega-churches
Amen! Big applause here!
What Bent describes is very similar to what I’ve experienced in three very unfortunate church situations in the last decade. One of the main things that those afflicted with NPD take advantage of in a church situation is the tendency of Christians to think the best of everyone (and there’s some scriptural support for having this presumption).
But one of the worst mistakes Christians make is to assume that every word in the Bible must be followed robotically, without context, discernment, common sense or regard for other parts of the Bible. Of course you wouldn’t “think the best” of the person with the blood-stained axe banging on your front door. In the same manner, you shouldn’t think the best of the church leader who is obviously engaging in sociopathic or NPD-tainted behavior. But yet Christians will and I did.
My spouse and I have a new rule: Three strikes and out. After the third time I find myself saying “Well, you know, that’s very odd behavior from Pastor Bill, seems not very Christ-like, but hey, Bill’s just a little quirky you know, surely he means well” we will get up in the middle of the service or Bible study or what-have-you and, taking our children in hand, will walk out without explanation, never to return. We all have oddities and sins and strange ideas that we’ll either iron out someday or that God will do it for us as we stand before Him one day, and allowances must be made for sins, quirks and normal stupidity (hence, the two free strikes), but I have had enough of perpetually making excuses for downright evil behavior from the pulpit. After a while, you get so muddled you know neither right from left.
This Toronto boy began wondering about MD back in ’07. If not earlier. But I’m a hater. 🙂
Victorious wrote:
I’m willing to pay it, especially if it means my five daughters and any future granddaughters can be fully part of the church.
Wenatchee the Hatchet also deserves kudos. He is the official source for all things Martian!!
LawProf wrote:
I second the motion.^
I wish I had done so when the pastor of UCCD help up Mahaney’s book from the pulpit and heaped praise on it.
I had found an article on Wicked Shepherds that closely resembles Mars Hill.
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/MindControl.html
MIND CONTROL:
SIX TELL-TALE SIGNS OF ABUSIVE CHURCH LEADERS
Misuse of ‘authority’, confessing sins to use against members later on, shunning, the whole nine yards.
TW wrote:
That would undeniably be one strike.
Dee: “Did you think he was cool because he talked about cage fighting and got people with tattoos to come to church?”
Were you able to overlook the controversy because he talked about sex from the pulpit and you didn’t want the titillating to stop?
But. I should have added. I think Dee and Deb have been unrelenting warrior queens for the truth — BECAUSE of their great love for Christ’s Church.
@ Mara:
Sometimes I just make a comment to hold my place in the comment thread so that when I check back here, I’ll know better where to start reading. It’s not that I think that everything I have to say is brilliant.
LawProf wrote:
Yes sir, me too. Back in the seventies I left an entire denomination because I saw my children getting befuddled. Whenever something came up that had to be addressed we would go home and discuss it in the realm of “I known the preacher said..” or “I know the church is doing…” but we don’t think that is OK, or we don’t do that in this family, or such. And I finally realized that while adults maybe can do that and hang around and see if things get better, children cannot. Not during crucial formative years.
We have never been sorry that we left. There really is better to be had out there. I am sorry you all have had so much trouble. Things are more difficult now than they were when my children were young.
LONG STORY TO OUR READERS:
I published the rough draft of the post and have since corrected it. It sounds much better now.
@ Mara:
It is fun, isn’t it?
Nancy wrote:
Oh yeah, we got tired of regularly having to undo the damage that pastor had wrought in the minds of our children (what exactly do you do with a pastor who tells kids as young as 10 that Hell exists in the center of the earth, and if they got close enough to a volcano, they could make out the screams of the damned?)
@ Bill Kinnon:
So is everyone else who blogs, like some guy named Kinnon.
@ Bill Kinnon:
You beat us by a couple of years.
dee wrote:
The difference between you and ::::cough, cough:::: others is that you admit it and do not blame it on technology. Integrity is what makes the difference.
I think you should blame the original post on one of your minions. Isn’t that what leaders in the church are supposed to do? 🙂
Julie Anne wrote:
Integrity – what’s that? I haven’t seen that word in the biblescriptures. Do I have to exhibit that characteristic in my life, too? Probably not. It’s not in the bible, so not necessary . . . (snark off)
Aaaand, this lack of understanding about NPD is truly what leads people to believe that Mars Hill, and churches like it, are normal. Case in point: http://taylorjoyrecovers.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/understanding-my-why/
__
“Church Two-Step Aaccountability Behind Da Vail?”
hmmm…
Dee: “Recently, there have been some pundits who say that blogs have no business in pointing out problems with certain pastors or churches. We should “let the leadership and the members” deal with it.”
What?
C.J. Mahaney destroyed that ‘type’ of pastoral confidence, and all those religious big dog preachers that choose to side with him, leaving his plethora of abused victims, to cover-up, turmoil, heartache, grief, toil n’ tears?
huh?
Are they doing the same with Mark Driscoll, as well?
Lack of Accountability?
Abusive religious authority?
Mis-representing the truth of God’s word?
Bringing anguish, despair, and injustice to the body of Christ, like so many hors d’oeuvre ?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Siding with those who do evil under the coak of 501(c) pastoral practices?
dag gum, if da blogs don’t cry out, da rocks sure will.
Lord, have mercy!
(sadface)
These religious pastoral monsters under da proverbial church bed, wanna free ride?
hardly.
Sopy
—
LawProf wrote:
I would expect that if you get close to the rim of a volcano, you would make out screams of DAMN!! It would probably be your own echo. Couldn’t pass that one up…
@ Julie Anne:
It is actually nice to be say you make a mistake. It kind of frees you from trying to be perfect.
LawProf wrote:
Good night! I swear there are a lot of nuts in the church.
@ Raymond:
It was begging for that response. Too funny!
@ Bill Kinnon:
I so want to have minions but, alas, it is not to be.
dee wrote:
Well, uhh … we could apply to be TWW pinions. Cuz, like, birds of a feather we flock tugethuh. Surely that’s the next best thing.
dee wrote:
He was, I think, insane. Told that lit
dee wrote:
He was, I think, insane. Told that lit
LawProf wrote:
He was, I think, insane. He told that little gem to the YOUTH GROUP!
Eagle wrote:
Amen!
I just saw this posted by my pastor (a retweet from Challies): https://twitter.com/challies/status/451447226049757184/photo/1
It’s a sober warning: “People fall in private, long before they fall in public.” (J.C. Ryle)
Is Challies about to confess something…?
Sorry.
I couldn’t resist. 🙂
Mars Hill still hasn’t imploded?
dee wrote:
We LOVE the minions. If you haven’t seen “Despicable Me” 1 & 2 you’re missing out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBekXg5LxSg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
You can buy toy minions to place around your house.
Actually, it wasn’t just two women clear across the country (I am thankful for them) but a group of us tried to intervene in 2006 here in Seattle. Pastors and therapists had a private meeting with Mark and Leif Moi to ask him to repent and get help. That meeting was in response to a protest that was planned at his church and the following open letter that asked for the meeting. It was clear to us he only did the meeting to stop the protest. There was very little change that came from our meeting. Only a contrived apology because we asked for it. No internal changes were made and all the 23 or 24 elders at the time backed him. I am thankful that so many are now beginning to tell the truth. http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/2006/11/open-letter-to-mark-driscoll_14.html
I can believe every word said here about Mark Driscoll. Bent knows him and has been close to him. If this is true, as he says, then people need to stay away from Driscoll. Do not meet with him in private, even if it is with a witness.
Get into a good church and get into couselling – not with anyone who has ever had an association with Mark Driscoll or Mars Hill. Stay way from all of them, and find your own way and your own voice. Do NOT allow yourself to become enmeshed with the agenda of someone else, even with TWW or Bent.
I have been abused by this kind of leader, and also been abused by people who have an agenda beyond my own welfare. Get free of all of them for your own good. A word to the wise. Find your own agenda, your own way, and follow it.
Rose Swetman wrote:
Welcome to TWW
I am sorry that this came across like that. What I was trying to convey is that two women who had no relation to Mars Hill could figure it out. So why didn’t Christian leaders and organizations figure it out. I know about the protests and the loss of membership. Yet Driscoll was still being invited to conferences and his books touted.
The same sort of things was happening with SGM. All of the Christian leaders sucked up, and continue to suck up, to Mahaney. We just don’t get it.
I believe that many church leaders around the country have aptly demonstrated that their discernment are in the toilet.
dee wrote:
I’m willing to bet it’s not about a lack of discernment–it’s about quid pro quo. It’s about money and power, about book sales and back cover endorsements and conference registrations, about self-important people looking out for one another. If they come under a cloud of suspicion themselves, they want powerful people, such as Driscoll and Mahaney (if he is still powerful) to have their backs as well, so they circle round the malfunctioning member of the herd and hope to ride it out, with knowledge that the same will be more likely to come back to them when they need it.
We see it in politics, among corporate titans, celebrities. The movers and shakers look after their own, almost as if by instinct.
It’s something like the mafia.
Just remember that the battle belongs to the Lord and not us. We have a responsibility to hold our Christian brothers/sisters accountable as it says in scripture…but we don’t have the responsibility nor the power to wage war. Mark is waging a war against Christians, not the real enemy.
“The arrogance of Driscoll is evident in this video as he discusses attitude towards elders who disagree with him.”
To be honest, I didn’t get this at all from the video. Not trying to be argumentative (and I have nothing to do with Driscoll or his network), I’m just leery of being told what a video means/says, and then not seeing it. I heard the story of how is fighter coach friend deals with rebellious fighters, I didn’t hear anything about how that relates to disagreeable elders.
Maybe I’m missing something, but if we are going to call others on the carpet for being disingenuous, we need to be careful that in our zeal we aren’t doing the same.
Jerry wrote:
Really? Not at all? Disingenuous?
Did you read what this video is about? Journey on over to You Tube and read this
“Mark Driscoll tells us how he keeps his elders in line. This was the sermon he he preached minutes before firing two older respected pastors who had given up their professions and served Mars Hill faithfully and sacrificially.
They had suggested some changes to newly proposed by-laws that took the power and authority of Mars Hill Church away from the elders and gave it to Mark Driscoll and 4 other men. These five have life long tenures, disproportionately high salaries and, under the proposed by-laws, no decision of theirs can be overturned without 2 of them joining other men to do so. If 4 of them stick together their decisions are binding on all the other elders. Elders can be fired and removed at their will. After the firing of the two elders and a trial of the elders for “not trusting or respecting senior leadership (guess who)” and violating “elder protocol” (an undefined unclear expectation) the rest of the elders fell into line and allegedly voted unanimously for the new by-laws.
It may be worth noting that all but 3 of the elders voting were church employees earning very good salaries who had just watched two of the most loved and hardest working pastors voice their concern about the proposed by-laws and getting fired and humiliated as a result.
In this video clip Mark Driscoll shows how breaking the nose of his elders breaks their will to voice dissent or even concern and allow him to have his rule.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YE3FHMTAWHY”
I would implore you to do your research. Your comment shows just how Driscoll has been able to get away with his garbage for many, many years. It is time to be totally honest about this stuff.Be smart.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Maybe! 😉
@ Jerry:
So if I told you that, because you disagree with this blog, I’m going to punch you in the nose, you wouldn’t have a problem with that? That is essentially what MD is saying.
@ Jerry:
Not sure where you’ve been, Jerry, but even the NYTimes commented on this story. Read this on Paul Petry’s blog.
@ LawProf:
LawProf, I honestly don’t think it’s about quid pro quo. I know my personal situation is different, but it may have some cross-over application:
I tried explaining my father’s NPD and alcoholism to my aunt. My aunt LOVED him, and often said that she “raised him,” because she was so much older than he was. Over a period of five years, she always found a “reasonable” excuse for every one of his whacked-out behaviors–even when I begged her to come get me, because he was drinking, was going to drive us to the airport, and I was afraid for my baby daughter & my safety. (I managed to talk my way into driving instead, so we were safe.) Even when he borrowed thousands of dollars from her–but still had his utilities cut off. Even when he used me, or verbally abused me, she attributed it to “stress,” to “an unhealthy relationship,” to “a toxic work environment,” to ANYTHING but, “There’s something wrong with this man!!”
I finally realized that she couldn’t see the fact that he was disordered, because in her mind, **she raised him**, and admitting that something was wrong with him would bring her 1) face to face with her own dysfunction, 2) not jive with her memories of “her precious little brother, or 3) tarnish the image of her parents in her mind.
With this in mind, my guess is that other leaders are not willing to hold Mahaney, Piper, and Driscoll in line because 1) They knew these guys when they were younger, and had good memories with them 2) they thought they saw God work through these guys, and 3) confronting a long pattern of sin or dysfunction would invalidate their past experiences. They just can’t reconcile their positive experiences and memories with the fact that a NPD person can be an expert deceiver. 🙁
Plus, these leaders would have to confront their own lack of discernment, and admit that they’d been abused, deceived, and used themselves. THAT is one of the hardest things to do: convince someone in an abusive relationship that they need to get out.
Deb & Dee, one of you is a Trekkie:
In the rest screen of the embedded video, the “play” icon obscures MD’s face below the nose. With his lower face hidden like that, does he resemble “Bones” McCoy to you?
Bill Kinnon wrote:
The NY Times article claims MD was the “son of a union drywaller”. I hung drywall once on a Habitat for Humanity build years ago. When it comes to the blue-collar construction trades, drywallers are near or at the bottom of the totem pole. I wonder if coming from the bottom of the heap like that had anything to do with the guy’s attitude.
dee wrote:
Third World Dictator shtick.
“I’m in Power and I’ll Break Any Head I Have To To Stay There.”
dee wrote:
Amazing where Discernment goes when you personally benefit from not having/using it.
dee wrote:
1) As stated above, they were personally benefiting from the arrangement — fame, money, Authoritah, ego-boo.
2) At the very least, they were too close to the problem to see it.
Mara wrote:
How else can Respectable Christians(TM) get their porn fix?
And still stay Respectable(TM)?
Dee,
I am curious as to why my earlier post was deleted?
Confused to why the rest of my comment is not showing up?Rose Swetman wrote:
@ Rose Swetman:
@ Donna Carlaw:
@ Rose Swetman:
Your comment was not deleted. It is still up there. I have no idea why you don’t see it. Here is the link.
@ Rose Swetman:
Also, I do not sit at the computer waiting for comments to come in. When you make a request, could you please give me longer than 2 minutes to answer you?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I shall go to observe immediately.
Eagle wrote:
Agreed Wenatcheethehatchet@blogspot.com is feeding Warren and Dr. Duncan with information.
Four suggestions for anyone going into a meeting with narcissists:
1. Don’t talk too much. Silence will drive them to talk more.
2. respond to baiting comments with silence or phrases like “tell me more.
3. Make your points in short clear declarative sentences, no weasel words.
4. Have a witness or a recording even if it’s illegal in your state.You may need this record for your own sanity when you are accused of being wrong.
Whozep68 wrote:
Wenatchee’s blog has long been the repository of all things Mars Hill. No matter how much Mars hIll deletes, they will never be able to wipe out the info so long as Wenatchee is around.
Loved the article about how to respond to a narcissistic pastor. And @LawProf – I can’t believe you’ve survived 3 of them. I survived 2, but just barely. I’m still fighting for my faith every single day.
The last narcissistic pastor I had, I should’ve followed the rule of 3 strikes. One of the first strikes happened the day my mother passed away. She lived out of town, and my pastor had said I could call him any time during this process, so he was one of the first people I called. It was a Sunday a.m. and our church was a church of about 50 people, many of whom were my friends, and he told no one at the church. (I was busy and not online and had no time to tell folks that day.) That should’ve been my first clue that he didn’t have my best interest at heart! Another clue would’ve been when he called me that week and, during the conversation told me a bit of church gossip. First, don’t repeat it, but I really don’t care about anything since my mother just died. Makes you wonder how blind we are to serious faults in our leaders.
After he and I had a serious run-in, I tried to call his “accountability pastor” to get some help for him, but all I got was a justification of his behavior and how hard it was to plant a church. The church imploded shortly after. So sad that other pastors don’t even want to help each other, but just tighten the ranks.
For anyone interested, I too got miffed by the accusations saying that no bloggers or internet perusers should talk about Driscoll, and I wrote a blog post on why we’re allowed to talk about the controversy for the health of the church and victims. It’s not the most comprehensive view of the subject ever, but I think it at least speaks to this weird belief that unhealthy things should never be brought to light.
http://observationalginger.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-mark-driscoll-controversy-why-were.html
dee wrote:
Quote of the week! 😆
I just did an unlady-like snort. Embarrassing.
BPD is a bit related to NPD….Anyone else read this book?
I wish I had access to it when I was 5 years old…..It kinda runs in my family, lol…
Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder Paperback
by Paul Mason MS (Author), Randi Kreger (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901
I am gearing up for a second read. I probably had so many emotional reactions the first time around, like “DOH I wish I knew this 40+ years ago!!” that I missed a few key plot points.
nmgirl wrote:
5. Do not meet on their “home turf.”
Make sure it is a neutral location.
6. Absolutely efuse to meet or deal with with underlings.
If the one who committed the offense is too “big” to meet with you one-on-one, forget it. Do not go through whatever channels THEY choose. You set the conditions, the place. Bullies almost always use surrogates, as they are too vulnerable alone. You are being set up – do not fall for it. Believe it.
Here is a great resource for dealing with workplace bullies (and other miscreants): http://www.kickbully.com/best.html
Well, the official source for all things Mars Hill would surely be Mars Hill if they weren’t so busy scrubbing things away lately.
Haven’t had any contact with Duncan, who has probably simply spotted the same UBIs via secretary of state listings as anyone could find with some curiosity. Throckmorton has found some stuff that has long been rumored to exist but had not been confirmed until the last month or so. Did want to clarify a little bit in light of the recent statement that WtH is feeding information, not exactly. Blogging about things before they get scrubbed away by MH? Yes, definitely doing that here and there.
lurking reader wrote:
I can think of at least two verses that allow for public rebuke of public sin or other wrong-doing that might harm the church:
Gal 2 : 14 ‘But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, …’. Whoever precisely the ‘all’ are here, this was not done privately, even when the person doing wrong was an apostle! Peter himself was not exempt from correction when he got something wrong, as the gospel is more important than the reputations of those who ought to be proclaiming it.
1 Tim 5 : 20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.
This follows immediately on from the previous verse “Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses” so, providing the necessary safeguard of multiple attestation is in place, elders are not exempt from having sin they commit properly dealt with, and I take it ‘in the presence of all’ again.
@ LawProf:
This is a hugely important point and deserves re-reading.
So you may as well all re-read it now (I’ve set the tag so it’ll open in a new tab, and you never know, that may even actually work).
Two of LawProf’s points resonate with me in particular… Just about all of us who are veterans of abusive-church conflict have made the mistake of treating a wolf as though (s)he were a sheep. Jesus may not have said h8 them and judge them, but he did say beware of them. And secondly, when I persist in making excuses for a leader’s sin, even after I have begun to realise that something is wrong, then eventually I become complicit in that sin and my own conscience is cauterised and defiled. “Repent” – both in english and in New Testament Greek – does not mean to take all the blame and apologise, it means to change your mind. Sometimes, true repentance doesn’t mean abasing yourself but standing tall when you’d previously have cowed down.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nope. Never mind.
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
We are so grateful for your hard work! Your research and analysis have helped many to question what is going on at Mars Hill.
@ Marie2:
Yes, I’ve read that book, and been a part of a forum that Randi Kreger helps sponsor: http://www.bpdfamily.com. Crazy-makers-R-Us, basically. However, “Understanding the Borderline Mother,” by Christine Anne Lawson, was quite a bit more helpful in understanding how BPDs [male or female] affect the close relationships around them.
@ nmgirl:
Thanks for this advice. I am not dealing with a pastor, but an influential person who has some of the traits I see described. In other words don’t give them anything they can use against you or show any emotionalism when dealing with them. Just be matter a fact and keep all the evidence whether it is a witness or recorded evidence.
There is one scandal that I think is more at the root here than any other scandal. Evangelicalism is in a crisis in many ways and there are issues such as child abuse, spiritual abuse, secondary issues, etc… that are plaguing and hurting it. Those are scandals. But the biggest scandal the one that supersedes all evangelical scandals is the lack of discernment that many evangelicals have. Evangelicals can’t spot wolves or bad churches. Its part of their DNA and it’s a huge flaw in American evangelicalism. I wonder if the root of this problem is due to the fact that evangelicalism here in the US is anti-intellectual. Since its anti-intellectual there are no critical thinking skills that other parts of Christianity have. Thoughts?
@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
Actually, it’s your methodical, steady, and patient attitude and your objective, consistent, attention-to-detail research and reporting over the years that I appreciate.
With all the flash and dash, speed-of-the-internet, whirlwind stuff going on I don’t want people to loose sight of all that went on in a remote place on the internet, almost behind the scenes, that more or less cracked this. (along with the Deebs and a few others)
You found the plagiarism in Real Marriage early on. When I tried to present it to others, they didn’t get it. But it was there, and you found it long before it broke among the big dogs.
I hope a bit a praise doesn’t embarrass you. I hope you take it as honest appreciation in this handling of a concerning situation.
For the few new people around here who might not be fully clear on Wenatchee, here is an introduction to him I had before a guest series he did on my blog.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/10/introducing-wenatchee-hatchet.html
nmgirl wrote:
I agree. By making “short, clear, declarative sentences,” without “weasel words,” my narcissistic pastor realized he was no longer in a position of control.
As for having a witness or recording, it’s an absolute must! I recorded our whole phone conversation just to make sure I could write down exactly what he said. I’ve been able to speak about that conversation with absolute confidence. It was also the most clarifying evidence that I was dealing with far more than what I had even imagined. He actually told me to go and tell everyone I knew that he handled my situation in a godly manner. I laughed, because he never did a single thing other than try to intimidate me, creatively remove me from the church, and support the other leader in habitual sin. He even admitted that I did nothing wrong, it’s just that he figured no one would know he said that.
In hindsight, I realize I should never have taken his phone call. You must have him meet/talk with you with a WITNESS and on yours, or neutral, turf.
Eagle wrote:
It’s certainly true with my pet secondary topic, YEC, where the fundamentalists/evangelicals are doing their utmost to replace good science with bad theology. Your thoughts also bring to mind Mark Noll’s “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind”.
Not certain if this article is talking about Mars Hill or United Christian Church of Dubai.
“Members who decide to leave are pushed to debrief with leaders, knowing full well that disagreements may be framed as rebellion against not only Driscoll but against God. Simultaneously, they are expected to abstain from talking with other members about the issues that have become deal-breakers. Membership materials frame audible dissent as divisiveness, creating a more subtle, psychological version of Firstenberg’s gag order. Those who leave often simply disappear.
When church leaders go, they too tend to disappear abruptly, and questions are met with a pious smokescreen.”
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/christian-right-mega-church-minister-faces-mega-mutiny-abusive-behavior?utm_content=buffer2caa9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer&paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark
LawProf wrote:
That “screams of the damned” is what I think of a Christian Urban Legend. Been running around for a few decades. Really appeals to those who run on emotion rather than intellect. Especially preachers who thrive on scaring people into getting saved.
TW wrote:
Like getting “liquidated”/”disappeared” in Stalin’s Russia.
NC Now wrote:
I remember when it first surfaced in the Eighties:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_to_hell
Never let a pesky fact like it was proven to be a hoax stand in the way of Scaring ‘Em Into the Kingdom — Sell that Fire Insurance!
Isn’t one of the differences between human and animal is that humans can think in abstractions and visualize the future and ANIMALS think only in emotions of the moment?
Sell that Fire Insurance!
But Wait! There’s More! A Free Complementary Rapture Boarding Pass with every policy!
Katie wrote:
Bent Meyer: And wear a wire.
TedS. wrote:
7. WEAR A WIRE.
Eagle wrote:
This has been my experience in Calvary Chapels. It’s not that people with developed thinking skills, as well as good theological training (not referring to a particular doctrinal camp as much as I’m referring to an understanding of hermeneutics, context, staying in the center of biblical tension, etc…) didn’t enter CC’s, it’s that it doesn’t take long for the leadership to encourage them to leave, creatively, of course.
My impression is that anyone who doesn’t just walk lock-step with Pastor’s thinking and doing, will never last long. I think of it as Pol Pot’s scrubbing of anyone with the ability to think to protect his kingdom.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Totally agree!
I had to deal with a narcissistic pastor who was spiraling out of control, as well as a non-Christian narcissist leader of a school. The only difference between them was the language they used. Though the school leader could make a sailor blush, the pastor’s use of religious jargon was by far more sickening.
Brent already knows Driscoll and his use of language; but for anyone going in for their first meeting with a suspected narcissistic pastor, listen to your gut. If the icky sweet religious words feel more like he’s quietly sticking a knife into you … he is.
Katie wrote:
This is worth writing down. My in-laws are still part of the narcissistic system we left. Every time we get together with them it feels just like that. It’s so bad that I told my husband I want nothing to do with that toxic relationship.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Washington is a “all party” consent state, unfortunately. NC is a one party consent state.But it doesn’t matter when churches are involved. They ignore recordings.
True story: So, I had some friends who recorded a pastors confessing to something awkward. The church denied that he had done such a thing. The recording was played for all the elders. Their response: crickets chirping. They continued to deny it even in light of the recording.
The pastor who confessed complained he had been recorded. he ,too, denied what he said. We made the recording available to everyone. no one took us up on it and continued to support what the church said. We still have the recording if anyone from said church is reading.
Churches can be “la la lands.”
oldJohnJ wrote:
A fine book!
dee wrote:
Because the “two witness” rule is all that maters in many churches these days. Got a video tape. Doesn’t matter unless two witnesses step forward to affirm it. And if two step forward and say it isn’t so, well that just that.
@ NC Now:
Nuts. Click the wrong reply button.
@ Eagle:
Yes sir, you are correct, including about the anti-intellectualsm. But then the further question is why are they like that and what do they offer in place of it to attract people? You have a lot of experience and insight and maybe you have more to say than you have already said? For example: Back in the day SBTS was anything but anti-intellectual and then with the fundamentalist takeover all the faculty were fired and a new bunch brought in who could not think themselves out of the bathroom and who disdained anybody who tried. So the question is, why did that succeed?
dee wrote:
Another book to add to my list. Thanks Dee!
Taylor Joy wrote:
Point taken, I see where you’re coming from, and I certainly simplified matters, maybe too much. But at the end of the day, the ones making excuses for the evil behavior are getting something out of either the behavior itself or the overlooking of it–the quid pro quo: the positive self-image, the validation of one’s powers of discernment, the comfort that one’s labors and energy has not been expended in vain.
When we left the last three abusive churches we attended, it was only after making repeated excuses, largely for the reasons you cite. It was hard for us also to admit that after all these years and experience that we were duped and had poor judgment and these issues had led us to put our children in harm’s way. Thank goodness we finally admitted what was happening. We have (former) friends who are still grinding away in cultic situations, some of whom are still serving the very abusers who destroyed our last church, having followed them hundreds of miles away to another church, uprooting family and quitting jobs, all in the service of a (likely) sociopath who has only contempt for them.
Eagle wrote:
I’ll say upfront that I am a great believer in the renewed Christian mind, and in thinking. I also do not doubt there is a section of evangelicalism (and not just in the States) that has put its brains in the deep freeze, and just emotes or goes with the flow.
I have read a fair amount of excellent thinking man’s stuff from American evangelicals and benefited from it, but wouldn’t you agree that the opposite error can also occur – namely of being too intellectual? The faith is made too or even solely cerebral, you dare not use words like ‘experience’ or you are thought to be a mystic (which I might add, I am not!).
Knowledge of Greek and Hebrew etc., whilst fine, are little use if you are blind to what is going on around you, in your local church or the general religious scene. Does no-one ever have words of knowledge these days as to sin or other problems going on in a congregation? Why not ask for the relevant spiritual gifts, such as distinguishing of spirits? Of course this requires you to be experimentally filled with the Spirit, which is not accomplished by intellectual knowledge of what the Greek for ‘filled with the Spirit’ is, or obsessing about correct terminology.
I think it is no coincidence that some of the strongest ‘the gifts have ceased’ proponents are also heavily intellectual, but filling your brain with knowledge cannot make up the deficit if you have no Spirit-enabled discernment to accompany it.
I would suggest this over intellectualism is at least part of the reason why some excellent well-known bible teachers just don’t see the various types of abuse that is going on in churches.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thanks for the kind words!
EXACTLY – As you say, it’s about treating wolf as if it were sheep. That’s precisely what we did. We’d meet these leaders, at first they’d seem genuinely good sorts, we’d just naturally assume that they’re Christians, and then we’d try thereafter to fit the manipulative and corrupt behavior and progressively stranger doctrines into that paradigm, you will turn your head clean around trying to do it. Eventually we just had to admit it was wolf. And now we look back and replay the things we saw and heard, some of which didn’t even register at the time–and we cannot believe we stayed so long–what were we thinking? How could we be so foolish?
@ Nancy:
Here’s my take after chewing on it for a few minutes. What attracts people is comfort, a sense of stability (though I would consider it a false sense of stability) along with social programs and friendships. However, as anyone here who has been through such a situation will know…it’s a false or fleeting sense of friendship because it depends upon you being in the good graces of such an organization and good standing. Cults like the Mormons do have their benefits. But fall out of that “grace” go against the grain then you can be shunned, have your character attacked, and then its game over.
I think many evangelicals are both naïve and lazy. Naïve in the sense that they don’t believe such backhanded dealing could take place in such a church. The wolves exploit their naivety and manipulate it for their own personal gain. So many people don’t realize they can be had until its too late. I learned this with Mormonism, and trust me…it was a hard lesson for a 19 year old college kid to learn. Plus many evangelicals are lazy. They want to be told what to think, what to believe how to behave, etc.. They never do the hard work on their own to work through this. Many evangelicals despise struggle as its too unsettling for them. If I could while Bonhoeffer spoke about cheap grace, I would take it one step further and say many evangelicals practice cheap forgiveness, worship, Bible study, and reconciliation. Maybe its because of their job or life and want to check out for one day a week. I don’t know. I’ll use SGM as an example. I lived in its backyard. Here in Washington, D.C. you have unique jobs that you just don’t have in other parts of the country. You have analyst positions in Department of Transportation, Defense, and the intelligence community such as the CIA. You have the FBI. You have statisticians in the Department of Labor who can crank out incredible math formulas. Actually I read lately that Washington, D.C. has the most educated work force in the United States. Most people here have advanced graduate degrees and that is due to work, and this being the hub for the federal government. So here’s what baffles me…why would an analyst at the CIA (making this up BTW…)who has degrees from Yale, Princeton, etc… who uses critical thinking skills in his job every day, then join a Sovereign Grace church? I just don’t get it. It makes no sense at all….unless they are willing to lay aside all critical thinking skills for the false assurance of friendship, etc… If so then the reason why you go to church for some people is companionship instead of worshiping the Lord.
As for what happened in the SBTS, I think with jingoism and an appeal to “doctrine” anything is possible. In any religious system it’s the fundamentalists who pose the problem. It doesn’t matter if it’s Islam, Judaism or Christianity. The fundamentalists are the ones who will scream the loudest, make the most noise, act underhandedly, cheat, be dishonest, etc.. In the name of doctrine the means justify the end. The final end game is all that matters. In the case of SBTS you have created a propaganda school that is an American version of the Islamic Madrasas on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border. Except they are not cranking out jihadists who are fighting our troops in Afghanistan. No…the SBTS is cranking out jihadists who take over normal healthy churches.
@ LawProf:
Yes, I have a hard time believing that it’s all about Jesus. I feel sick when I hear Driscoll say that because I’ve tried to imagine his Jesus and I don’t like him. I think Mark more wanted Mahaney to mentor him in how to grow a following from the ground up with no prior denominational support. Mahaney though planted pastors in all of his wards to do the Sunday talks…. not narcissistic enough for Driscoll, he pipes himself onto all of his Sunday stages like Rick Warren.
Bent Meyer wrote,
“Be clear what your repentance expectations look like. Be prepared to give Mark a clear list of repentance expectations.”
I would suggest that Mark be given the list of repentance expectations in writing and request his response in writing before scheduling any meeting. The expectations and responses can then be used as the agenda for the meeting. If the responses are vague or lacking in content, send a follow-up and ask for clarification, etc. Again, all in writing. Finally, if Mark refuses to answer your expectations in writing, there is no purpose in having a meeting.
@ Eagle:
Thanks for what you have said. I believe you are right, but I hate to hear it.
dee wrote:
Drives you crazy, went through a similar one myself. Pastor at 1st cultic church we attended, about a year into our time there, announced at a Wed night interactive teaching time, apropos of nothing, that “Jesus was not God”. Thought he surely didn’t really mean it, raised hand and questioned him. He affirmed it, told me that’s what the church believed (this was supposedly an orthodox Christian church). I raised hand again “You’re kidding me, but what about this scripture?” (Shifty response) raised hand again “What about this other scripture?” (Mumbled response). This went back and forth for a few minutes, and he just kept digging deeper, never could give a good solid answer. I didn’t yell, he didn’t yell, but I sure peppered him with bible verses. The meeting was over soon after with cult members murmuring over what had just happened. Everything was recorded, the church sold recordings of sermons and even little interactive sessions like the Wed night one.
We had some friends at that church who weren’t there that night, the wife of whom had been horribly abused by the leaders (topic for another day, but still ranks as the single most evil thing I’ve seen anyone I know do), we were planning on leaving together to start our own fellowship, they’d had too much as well. I called up the husband a day later and knew something wasn’t right by tone of his voice. He told me plans to leave were off, they were staying, we could leave if we wanted. When I asked him what was wrong he said he’d heard the recording from the previous night when I’d been disrespectful to pastor. “But Dick, pastor claimed Jesus wasn’t God, that’s the whole reason I kept bringing up those scriptures.” “Well I didn’t hear that.” Well it’s in there, Dick, that was the whole reason for the controversy in the first place, just listen.” “Not interested, goodbye.”
I watched this “friend” take his wife back to the wolves, and he simply refused to listen to the recording.
@ Rose Swetman:
Everything you wrote over 7 years ago (BEFORE the firings and power consolidation) still applies today! I also noticed the numerous comments chiding you for publishing it…just as we’re seeing now. Maybe everyone should just sit down and shut up– er– uh– meet with Mark privately (good luck with that!) for another 7 years. 🙁
To our readers
TWW is mentioned by name in the Salon article (see TWW header). We may be getting some extra hits so please excuse any slow down.
LawProf wrote:
When you get ready to write your story, please, please let us feature it.
dee wrote:
If the leadership is already caught up in selfish ambition and lying for self-preservation, then it stands to reason that he/they would continue to lie even in the face of a recording. It’s the OJ defense. Just keep saying the opposite of truth and enough people will blindly go along with you.
The recording that I did was so that I could speak about what was said with absolute confidence. It’s been very effective. The leader continued to lie, many didn’t want to hear anything about it; but there were many who contacted me because they could sense the truth in what I was saying. It took another year and a half for the pastor to be caught so red-handed that they were able to crow-bar him outta there. Then a fair amount of people contacted me wondering if I could help them understand what had just happened.
I’m happy to talk to anyone who needs someone to listen or to help give them language to understand what happened. The sooner people get this support, the more thoroughly and efficiently they heal.
Joe wrote:
I knew before going into my meeting that I would have no chance to set the agenda. So I carefully wrote out the issues at hand, the dates/times & witnesses, and the responses called for in clear bullet points. AFTER the two leaders controlled the entire meeting by eating it up with unnecessary talking, Scripture quoting (no application to the situation,) and emoting as a manipulative tactic, the meeting was declared over. I asked why I was not allowed to speak and they looked at me confused as to why they would listen to me, when I am the one who called the meeting. So I handed each of them a copy of my agenda/explanation/expectations and their mouths dropped open! They never saw that coming.
In the end, the two leaders conveniently threw their papers away; but again didn’t count on my giving copies to others. Looking back, I should have handed the paper out in the beginning. In my case, handing it out ahead of time would only have gotten my meeting cancelled.
@ Ken:
Yes. Say it again. The root cause of some of the current problem (note “root” and “some”) is the fact that the SBC (that’s the only evangelicals I know much about) long ago decided, as I have said before, that the Trinity was the Father and the Son and the Bible. And about the only thing that has changed now is a slight modification in terminology, but no modification in faith or practice. Several people have brought up the continuationist vs secessionist issue, but not many people here have said much about it. I think this issue is huge and is an elephant in the living room for sure.
The reason that I focus on the intellectual issue is (a) that is the battlefield on which the neo-cal / evangelical / comp people have chosen to engage, and (b) some of the “followers” actually have some reasoning skills that they use at work or elsewhere, so it might be possible to get them to bring that to church with them, and ( c ) the antipathy against experientially “tarnished” thinking is so great that I don’t see any way to even have a conversation with them on the issue.
But you are, IMO, one more person who has hit the nail on the head.
dee wrote:
I just might do it, thanks for the offer. Dick was very ill, he was facing a life possibly being truncated by a couple decades. This only dawned ion me years later, but I believe now he thought this one “spirit” filled church in town was about his only hope at a healing, they always promised healings and revivals and miracles just around the corner. So in the final analysis, I think that’s why he stayed on and led his very kind, Christian wife back into the fray. He never got his miracle, died a couple years later and so far as I know, his wife was literally left to the wolves.
NC Now wrote:
This is a good example of what I was talking about earlier, the robotic application of scripture without context, common sense or consideration of other scriptures that also bear on the matter. That two witnesses thing is hammered repeatedly by cultic leaders, and in the toxic environments they create where groupthink, insulating yes-men, and a brainwashed haze prevails, it will be almost impossible for anyone ever to be able to expose evil–also a scriptural mandate.
Former CLC’er wrote:
Me too. Still fighting. I know Jesus is real, I know He’s still there and loves me and I believe what I’ve read about Him is accurate. But I can’t step through the doors of a church (I think I’d throw up or have an anxiety attack) and I struggle to read the Bible, particularly the NT, with the exception of the Gospels (even though I know with my intellect that the Bible had nothing to do with the sick and evil people I’ve witnessed twisting it–in fact, that very Bible warned me about them and I failed to heed it). But that feeling in the gut won’t go away. Something like right before the big exam when you have butterflies. Feel that most every time I walk into a public place, worried I’ll see one of the sociopaths there, feel it at the very thought of church. And I am not one by nature given to anxiety, ask anyone who knows me. Sorry about the self-centered nature of my posts!
LawProf wrote:
Oh, I hope she’s okay now? That just grieves my heart.
Katie wrote:
I do not know, they were out of our lives after that final break, saw them once more not long before he died, moved over a thousand miles away, and lost touch. I hope so, she was a special lady.
dee wrote:
And I would implore the author to be accurate. The text stated the video was Driscoll discussing his attitude about disagreeable elders. But the fact of the matter is that, whether you like it or not, the video itself said nothing of the sort. The onus is not on me to do tons of research to verify the video, the onus is on the person making the accusations to be accurate, with proper supporting evidence.
In other words, you guys make some serious accusations, then I have to do research to make sure it’s accurate? Seems backwards to me.
What is very interesting is that attitude displayed toward me for asking a simple question strikes me as similar to the same attitude you accuse of Mark when people disagree with him. And I wasn’t even being disagreeable! Go check my post, I never defended Mark, didn’t argue with the premise. I was just making an observation on the content of the video. That is all. No more, no less.
Jerry wrote:
Gosh, Jerry, it’s not exactly like this stuff isn’t well-documented. really? You’re not aware of the infamous sermon immediately after the purge? I think you’re either very ignorant of the circumstances or being coy. Just a gut reaction.
@ Jerry:
And what attitude is that?
I have to admit that I find this conversation interesting. I told you the video is about those pastors. It has been written about all over the place. I implored you to check into it because two good men were humiliated and hurt by things that were said, including this public statement by Driscoll. I begged you to be smart. The reason is, once again, two men were treated shamefully by a man, who in my opinion, has no business being in the pulpit.
You need to understand that by sidelining the conversation into making it about me, you are ignoring what happened to these men. In fact, had you really cared, you might have said something like “Gee, I think Meyer and Petry were really hurt by Driscoll along with many others but you are not doing such a good job of explaining the video.”
But, you didn’t. You went after me and my supposed “attitude.” Stand up for righteousness. Don’t let men like Driscoll play pastor and hurt many people. Focus on the real problem as opposed to two bloggers who have been trying their best to get out the information which was deep sized by a bunch of “leaders” who kissed Driscoll’s feet as he continued down this path.
I apologize for in any way sounding like I was “throwing you under the bus.”
Now, please focus on the issue at hand. Driscoll has hurt many, many people.
Jerry wrote:
The onus is on all of us to research what is being said. And if you truly cared about two men who were deeply hurt by Driscoll, you would have done just that. I did care. That is why I have been spending hours researching this stuff.
LawProf wrote:
Here is what concerns me. Jerry may be just who he says he is and does not feel he needs to check into anything.
However, these past few days I have been reading things about how narcissistic/bully pastors can turn the tables on a conversation to make it about the person who is bringing the concern. It is a common tactic that we have seen used through the years in a number of ministries.
Here is how it was used on me. i went to see a pastor about an issue that was causing serious conflict in a Sunday school class. It had to do with creationism but lets not go there for now. My husband and I were polite and asked the pastor why things were the way they were.
The next thing I knew, he leaned forward and told me that I was arrogant and condescending. I was shocked since I hadn’t said anything provocative (I promise.) I blurted out “How?” he looked at me and said it was my body language. I was sitting in a wing chair holding a giant cup of tea with both hands with both feet on the ground. Again I asked him how. He refused to answer me.
I then realized that he was turning the tables on me. I should have know then that talking with him was useless.
It is very difficult when I am blogging to be able to see what is going on in a conversation. However, I do have one clue that helps me. It was some advice that I got from SNAP a long time ago. I was told to always keep the victims of abuse in front of me when I got involved in conflict.
And that is wise. It dawned on me that Jerry did not say anything about those who have been hurt by Driscoll. He was more concerned about the video and how it didn’t show anything about the victims and how this reflected on me. I was the bad guy.
That is a clue. If one is compassionate, one can express that care and then go on to the topic of “disproving the video.” Also, if he truly cared, he would have looked it up himself. In fact, if he was a Berean, he would have first done that before coming here. I certainly would have and so would most people who truly care about the pain which is most of us.
My guess is that he didn’t want to do it since it would have taken about two or three clicks to get the answer-no skin off his back.
Now, maybe he is just lazy and doesn’t give a hoot. Then why go after me?
@ Jerry:This is one of the best known Mark Driscoll stories out there. You can find it by doing a 15 second Google search. Or follow the links provided to you earlier in the comments.
Sadly, you appear to do what so many other New Calvinists do when it comes to critique of one of their own — attack how the message is delivered, rather than the substance of the story itself. There is no debate that Driscoll was addressing the Petry/Meyer elders situation in this “breaking the noses” statement.
The fact that Driscoll would even tell this story at all, no matter who it references, should be found astounding by any sentient believer.
Deb – The misdirection is of course a common tactic. If you look up symptoms of NPD or sociopathy, it’s often there: turn the tables on the accuser, reframe the argument, deflect–never face an issue directly or fairly. Not saying Jerry is empathy-deprived necessarily, he’s quite probably not, but it is well-document and oft-observed that people within the range of mental normalcy will be seduced the sociopath’s way of thinking and become enablers, performing the misdirection by proxy. I’ve told TWW how I did this myself on behalf of pastor R, who was definitely abusing parishioner A (and the rest of us, though he hadn’t necessarily set his sights on me yet) and how I was all fired up angry at A and even chewed him out in private, refusing to even address the issues A brought up–which were completely valid.
@ dee:
It’s called Gaslighting. And, yes, Jerry is using this technique on you.
Jerry wrote:
I did not hear the specific word “elder” used in the video, but was this speech/sermon Driscoll delivered in the video shortly before or after he dismissed some of his church elders?
(After digging around a bit more, several sites said it was shortly before firing two high ranking members of his church, which some sources refer to as “elders” and some saying at least one guy was a “pastor.”
This very blog has an interview with one of the fired guys who says, “‘I am one of the men fired the day of Mark’s rant about two elders he felt needed broken noses.”)
That video is under the title “How to keep your elders in line” on You Tube (uploaded by You Tube user “ReallySad1”).
On that You Tube video page is this blurb:
In the video, Driscoll did specifically mention “people who will not submit to authority.”
Driscoll said in this video he “coaches a lot of pastors.”
The parallel Driscoll was making was between how he handles pastors under him vs. how the fighter guy handles disobedient fighters under him.
Shortly after that comment (that comment = “I coach a lot of pastors”), Driscoll said he asked the fighter guy he was chatting with,
“What do you do with a guy who just doesn’t submit to authority, doesn’t obey the chain of command, doesn’t listen, doesn’t do what he is told, just rebellious, stiff necked, hard-hearted, and stupid, what do you do with those guys?”
The fighter guy said, “I break their nose.”
Driscoll said he found that response “brilliant.”
So, Driscoll is indicating he is fine with the idea of breaking the nose of pastors who work under him, and in broader terms, anyone “under him” who will not “submit to authority”. Driscoll thinks breaking their noses is a nifty idea.
You don’t have a problem with that, Jerry? If Driscoll is fine with treating pastors in that manner, why is it such a stretch to believe he would also feel that way about elders, and hey, Sunday School teachers, church parking lot attendants, the guitar player in the church’s worship band, or the nightly church janitor too?
A few other web pages explain that Driscoll was in fact addressing his church elders in that little speech. That is of course according to those other sites. I do’nt know how accurate they are.
According to the site Joyful Exiles in regards to that same video (and one other one),
According to The New York Times,
Regardless of the exact wording used -or not used- in the video, Driscoll was conveying what, in his view, is an appropriate manner in handling underlings whom he considers to be in need of discipline or correction.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
AKA “THE PARTY CAN DO NO WRONG! EES PARTY LINE, COMRADE!”
(Cue foot
Answer… Get consent as required by law in your state and tape record any exchange with an abusive pastor if possible.
Remain cool and rational in the conversation.
This action lets one not have to characterize an exchange. People can simply hear it for themselves if they wish.
@ LawProf:
Former CLC’er wrote: “…I’m still fighting for my faith every single day.”
LawProf: “Me too. Still fighting. I know Jesus is real, I know He’s still there and loves me and I believe what I’ve read about Him is accurate. But I can’t step through the doors of a church (I think I’d throw up or have an anxiety attack) and I struggle to read the Bible”
++++++++++++++
I understand.
The doors of a church and the Bible can be helpful, but are distractions for faith. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are personas as knowable as anyone. Different from what we’re used to, but just as knowable. Institution- and publication-free.
Based on the heady messages Christian culture dishes up, keeping people dependent on the institution and publications for validity, one would conclude that we in 21st century America are the only people in all of world history who could possibly have the ability to know God.
What utter nonsense.
@ elastigirl:
that would be, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are persons.
Daisy wrote:
Obviously, we reject the sinful notion of a “chain of command” within the body of Christ. Such a thing has nothing to do with the Kingship of Jesus and he expressly forbade us from establishing one.
Apart from that, what do we do with a guy who just doesn’t submit to authority, doesn’t listen, doesn’t do what he is told, just rebellious, stiff necked, hard-hearted and stupid? We do the only thing we can do, which is to address his misdeeds through social media, in the hope of repairing the damage he and his ilk have already done and of limiting the damage he can do in the future.
LawProf wrote:
No, I’m not aware. I don’t even know what “the purge” is. So yes, I am very ignorant of the circumstances.
Guys, it was an honest observation. The blog said the video was about disagreeable elders. But that specific clip was about cage fighters hitting each other in the nose. So I asked. The fact that I wasn’t aware of the context, or of the history, or the circumstances, seems very difficult for many here to process. The result is that I have been accused, both overtly and outright, of being stupid or dishonest.
It is possible, in fact, very likely, that people can come across this blog without any knowledge of the circumstances. The internet is like that. Furthermore, the evangelical circles that Driscoll runs in are a very small percentage of all of Christendom. If you polled my tiny, Midwestern church, I’m guessing at least 75% of the congregation would have no clue who Mark Driscoll is. No clue! Imagine that.
It was not my intention to stir up any hornets nest, nor was I attempting to go after anyone, try to defend Driscoll, or any such thing. Please go read my original post. It was not offensive, or accusatory, it simply said that the video wasn’t as clear as was stated, and we need to be careful.
As you guys have said, one of the marks of a narcissistic pastor is that being disagreeable is not tolerated. Asking questions is frowned upon and ridiculed. You have accused Mark of being that kind of pastor. Yet, it feels to me that, to some extent, that is exactly what has happened here. I questioned a statement dee made, and I have been accused of “misdirection”, “going after dee”, being “ignorant”, “seduced by a sociopath”, and many other things. I would ask that you pause, and make sure that in your zeal to expose Mark and right his wrongs, you don’t unintentionally become like him.
I’m not a neo-Calvinist. I’m not Berean. I’m not a vocational pastor. I am not a Mark Driscoll defender. I am not your enemy. God bless.
Jerry wrote:
You should be a Berean. That is a person who studies to confirm that what is being said is true. The Bible says that we should all be Bereans.
As for the circles that Driscoll runs in, I noted that you are a fan of Between Two Worlds which is a blog run by a number of men who have been Driscoll fans. So, if you are linking to this blog, you are certainly touching the world in which Driscoll is a part. If you are reading that blog, then you know a lot more than you are letting on.
Jerry wrote:
This blog has offered, for five years, much supporting data about Driscoll. I have made my case but it takes more than one minute to scan a post and declare it deficient. Secondly, it does not take “tons” of research to verify what I have said. You are a computer expert from what I can tell. With your skills it should take less than 3 minutes to find your answer. “Tons of research?” Not exactly.
Once again, though, you did not do something. You did not express one ounce of concern for the victims in this situation. It was all about you, your proof, your evidence, your “no time for tons of research.” Until you show some compassion for those hurt by this “ministry,” your words seem a bit hollow.
Jerry wrote:
Who is “we?” The vast majority of the people who read this blog are careful, have done their research including me. But “we” thank you for your concern.
Jerry wrote:
Recognize that you are posting on a blog intended for victims of cultic church abuse in supposedly orthodox church environments. So far as I know, the mission of the blog is to expose such abuse and act as a sounding board for those who’ve experienced it.
Like all specialized blogs and forums, there are certain understandings and well-known events to which posters refer, in this context, there’s no particular reason to show the entire video or a full transcript of the sermon. The sermon and its historical context have been well-documented in Christian and secular media, Driscoll has made his intentions and attitude perfectly clear on many occasions.
This blog is frequented by some members of these cultic churches (or troll facsimiles thereof, can be hard to tell the difference sometimes) who play coy games or just outright attack the people who author the blog. You have to understand our initial reaction to you in that context. For all we knew you were Mark Driscoll posting under a nom de plume.
When one is surfing the web and comes across a random post or video on a blog, one should look into the context before they criticize the poster. This is common sense.
And may I ask–as frankly I still have suspicions of you–what type of church do you attend in the Midwest?
dee wrote:
I was referring to the Berean domination, not the general characteristics of the Bereans in Acts.
dee wrote:
You must have followed the link from my personal home page to my blog. If you did, you can also see that my blog is defunct, and hasn’t been updated in five years. Thee “links worth visiting” you referenced were put up even before that, back when I started the blog in 2006. So, about eight years ago. Those links would be much different now.
dee wrote:
Then I apologize. It is true, sometimes I become focused on a specific issue, and don’t always address the bigger picture. If those men were treated as you say, it is awful, and I am sorry.
I have actually been the victim of such a circumstance, and I barely escaped with my marriage intact. Here is a no-longer-linked page I put up at the time briefly describing the result. The song on the page is what I saw in my wife, and it was this song and what I saw happening to her that gave me the courage to leave. Note the line, “They’ll say we love the darkness, but I’ll say we hate their half-light.” Perhaps you can relate.
http://www.fostertribe.org/sundownmotel.html
I was also raised a pastor’s kid. I have also seen first-hand ugly and unfounded accusations leveled at my dad and our family by ungodly and selfish persons. The stuff I could tell you would curl your toes.
It is because of this history — having been the recipient of abuse from a pastoral staff, and abuse from church members — that I am often hesitant to speak into such a situation without first doing some research. Perhaps some consider that selfish or uncaring. I’m just trying to be careful. To be fair and honest to myself, it would require getting information from both sides, and I suspect it would take considerable research to get a clear picture.
dee wrote:
Maybe the sarcasm here is deserved, but I was not trying to be insulting, I was trying to take a conciliatory tone. “You” is accusatory, “we” includes me. I need to be careful as well. That is all I meant.
LawProf wrote:
LawProf wrote:
All very fair points.
LawProf wrote:
We attend a church named Hillside Bible Church, in Ortonville, Michigan:
http://www.hillsidebible.org/
I am an elder at this church. Hillside is an independent Bible church not affiliated with any umbrella organization or association.
The fitting image of the boy Emperor is HILARIOUS!! 😀
Jerry wrote:
Hmmm, this is interesting. Both sides involve pastors who served at Mars Hill. So, when you decided to become concerned, how did you decide which pastor to support in the argument?
Jerry wrote:
The research has been done for you. You can easily read both sides of the story. Driscoll has been quite out front with his thinking. One of the things we do on this blog is to present links to the stories in which you can see what the other side is saying. How do you know that? Read the comments. If we didn’t get it right, we would be skewered on all kinds of blogs-oncluding Between Two Worlds.
As it is, they can only call us “gossips” since we do our research. They can’t get us on content so they get us on “tone.”
Jerry wrote:
Would it be fair to say your church is strongly complimentarian, Jerry.
Jerry wrote:
So it would be safe to say that you think Dee and Deb should be “facilitat(ing) organized opportunities for women to learn a new skill from other women i.e. cooking, knitting or scrap booking/stamping. ” While their husbands “…take their God ordained roles as spiritual leaders of the home, in Church and in their community.“
@ Bill Kinnon:
Oh dear, I was thinking about getting a pizza tonight.
dee wrote:
Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean. I was simply trying to give some insight into my background, as to why I am hesitant to jump in and come to conclusions too quickly concerning a situation I am not personally involved with. I just think that is prudent. I haven’t made any decisions about supporting anybody.
dee wrote:
Um, that is what I meant. Research = reading and analyzing. It does take time to read all the links, and all the articles.
Thanks.
@ dee:
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Wow, Jerry’s church sure does assume a great deal. They claim that God ordains things that there is no evidence that He has ordained.
Amazing what the men in Jerry’s church will do when they are so desperate for places of importance in the synagogue, er, I mean Church. They will make the Bible say things it never says so they can feel all important.
There was a man with a machete who rushed him? Is that something he made up a la Ergun Caner?
dee wrote:
Hope you checked that menu out with your husband…/sarcasm
Jerry wrote:
You need to read my reply to you above that has citations from other sources:
My reply to you about the Driscoll video
The fact is, while MD (Driscoll) did NOT use the specific term “elder” in the sermon you hear in that video, several other news outlets did refer to the people MD was addressing as such, including one of the guys who was fired shortly after MD’s rant about nose punching.
You were partially correct, if we are going to be nit picky about things, but then, the ladies who run this blog were partially correct in their description of the video as well.
There’s an optical illusion drawing that some people look at it and swear they see an Old Lady in the drawing, while other people look at the same drawing and claim to see a Young Lady. Both are right – depending on how one looks at the drawing, it can look like either an Old or Young woman. This video thing is similar.
@ Daisy:
A copy of that Old / Young woman drawing can be found at the bottom of this page about Paradigms:
Old/ Young Woman Drawing
Some of you will look at the image and think you see an old lady, while others will swear it’s a young woman, and both would be right.
To the Old Lady viewer, they are taking it straight on (the area on the left is the woman’s nose, and it’s a big nose), while the Young Lady view thinks it’s a drawing of a woman with her head turned to the side (the “nose” area would be viewed by them as the cheek and jaw line of the young woman).
Bill Kinnon wrote:
No not really. Given a spectrum we do fall more towards complimentary rather than egalitarian. However, not “strongly”. For instance, we have women teachers who teach regular adult bible classes of both men and women, which wouldn’t be a characteristic of a strong complimentarian viewpoint.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
“Should?” No, not at all. “Participate if they want?” Of course. Because that is simply one of the activities the women of our church happen to enjoy. You can’t quote the vision statement of the men’s ministry against one of the activities of the women’s ministry as if they are the same thing.
I’m curious what this has to do with anything, Bill. Perhaps you could just come right out with any accusations instead of beating around the bush?
@ Jerry:
I see what you’re saying. Some blogs and forums can be very clique-y, so you may feel as though you are being jumped on the moment you make your first post and folks start attacking you right away for it.
OTOH, the internet being what it is, if you’ve been online longer than a year, you should also know that it’s wiser to spend some time lurking on a blog and forum to determine what kind of culture it has, rather than just jump in and make a post, and especially if your first post is critical of said blog (even if it is pretty polite).
At this blog, they sometimes get rabid, rude defenders of preachers who are being criticized, so some of the regular posters here can quickly jump on a newbie who takes issue with the original post.
I usually spend some time lurking at a blog or forum for days or weeks to determine if my personality, views, and posting style would be a good fit or welcomed or disliked by the majority of regular posters.
Another thing I would do – if I had been you – before making the post you did, I would have searched for the term “Mark Driscoll” in the blog’s search box to see if this blog had done previous posts about the guy, and, if so, to read those posts to get up to speed about who he is and why the blogger has an issue with the guy.
Jerry wrote:
You asked for trouble by jumping in to criticize a post without first reading the links, which are part of the post. And if you didn’t think the linked material did a good-enough job to show you the issue, many other people have written on it, and most of them can also accessed through links in additional posts on Driscoll here at Wartburg Watch.
There’s been a lot of research done on this issue, and for quite a while. The reading of the sort you need to do is not research but merely getting up to speed on the issues.
Because you came in with a critical attitude, we assumed that you did your reading and found it spurious. Thus the initial criticism.
That you didn’t do the required reading indicates that you tend to jump in with a critical spirit before you take the time to know what’s going on. This flaw is common in the church and has hurt many people who inhabit this blog’s threads. Thus the further criticism.
Jerry wrote:
Thus far, I think you’ve responded fairly to our concerns.
As an aside, I don’t have a problem myself with the concept of complimentarianism, in that men and women are intrinsically different and certainly do perform different roles within various contexts, church and otherwise. The problem is with the spin that most groups who subscribe to what they call “complimentarianism” put on it; as I said to a young neocal friend, “When I hear someone say “complimentarian”, they invariably seem to mean “authoritarian”.
I seldom see exceptions to this rule, and churches that go to pains to make their complimentarianism a distinctive, as opposed to simply allowing the Bible to speak for itself, seem to have a high percentage of women who abdicate their roles as wives and co-equals under Christ and focus on window coverings, nail polish colors and homeschooling materials and a high percentage of men who are domineering thugs. Just like any church that includes Heb 13:17 on their online Mission Statement, Doctrines and Beliefs, Distinctives, etc., even though it is a purely biblical concept, almost invariably will turn out to be a destructive cult.
@ Bill Kinnon:
So the dudes of that church don’t get to partake of some sweet, sweet knitting and scrapbooking? Ya’all missing out. Keep your manly man leadership leading, and give me stamping any day!
Mara wrote:
Mara, I do feel that God has asked me to be a spiritual leader in my home, church, and my community. I feel that I can come to that conclusion from a straightforward reading of Scripture. My wife is a spiritual leader in our home, in our church, and in our community as well. Are you saying Scripture does not compel us to lead people spiritually in our areas of influence?
Mara wrote:
You know, I’m confused. I apologized to dee for not seeing the big picture before I posted my comment. I conceded to some very good points made my LawProf. And in today’s postings I have tried to strike as conciliatory a stance as possible. And I get what feels like a personal attack on my character in response.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, you are exactly right, a point which I already admitted to LawProf above.
Paula wrote:
He has written about this and spoken about it. Now, don’t you think a guy waving a machete while rushing a pastor preaching would get a bit of media coverage?
Well, I think I have better than average Google skills and cannot find any mention of this. I checked with a Seattle newspaper but they were unable to be of any help.
I would think the church would call the police and that this would have been reported. Also, it supposedly happened during a church service but no one has come forward to recall such an incident.
Let me be clear-if I saw a man rush my pastor with a machete I would not only remember it, I would be blabbing about it for years.
Can you imagine what would happen if people accused Driscoll of lying about this? It might speak to his credibility. Therefore, I think that, as they are scrubbing the website of all sorts of things and deleting emails, etc., it would behoove them to keep the one with the machete waving maniac… if they can find it…
Jerry wrote:
I bet you don’t know this but this is the mantra of certain church leaders who do not believe that we should get involved in this stuff. You know, the ones that want us to listen to his sermons, buy his “NY Times bestseller”, and listen to him on the View. Then we are to shell out the dough to him and stay out of it while they manage things. ROFL.
Here’s the deal. He goes public, I, John Q Public, get to respond. And I like to respond in a blog.
Jerry wrote:
I think people can, though.
The men of your church, as listed on that men’s ministry page, are expected to lead and teach, while the ladies are described as doing stereotypical girly things (ie, scrap booking).
(I’m not bashing scrap booking, btw. I don’t do it myself, but I have known ladies who do enjoy it.
I just don’t like it when people, Christians especially, behave as though if one is a female, one must enjoy it, or it is assumed by some Christians I do things like scrap book, all because I am a woman.)
I am surprised that your church’s men’s ministry pages did not tell males who attend they can also expect to pursue typical manly man activities, such as bear wrestling, football watching, or cage fighting.
Those pages give the impression that it looks like the males of the church are encouraged and expected to go after more serious, intellectual, spiritual pursuits, while the ladies are not.
One of several trillion problems I’m having with the Christian faith is that I don’t fit in at most churches or Christian culture as it is. I have never been a total girly girl.
I do occasionally dabble in some stereotypical lady pursuits, but I also like things most Christians would consider more ‘boyish,’ or as not being proper examples of “biblical womanhood,” such as a love for Sci Fi (Star Wars in particular), Bat Man movies, tech/computer interests, etc.
I was for many years into Christian apologetics. I was an avid reader and soaked up lots of information about the history of the Bible, aspects of the Christian faith, arguments atheists make against the faith, etc.
I seldom see churches who expect or desire women to be intellectual or interested in apologetics or technology (as I am). Many churches expect women to be nurturing servers – to feed people, clean up the church’s kitchenette, or to knit.
If I skim over a church’s women’s ministry page, and it pegs women as being expected to be into typical girly pursuits such as scrap booking and knitting, or to only play the role of serving- nurturer- mom- figure to the sick and hurting (a Florence Nightingale figure), I already feel as though I would not fit in or be welcomed there.
Lawprof wrote:
I totally understand, and I would hope we are an exception. There is a reason you can’t find a “staff list” on our website, and our pastor’s name is not on our signs. We believe the church is not about any one person, but about being the bride of Christ. As my Sunday School teacher said two weeks ago, “Show me a church with the pastor’s name on the sign, and I’ll show you a church with an authority problem.”
For the record, my wife rarely paints her nails, shoots a gun better than I do, is a registered nurse, and made twice as much money as I did the first five years of our marriage, (for which I was very thankful!) 🙂 Nor do we homeschool – all our kids are in public schools so that we can impact our community as coaches and volunteers.
Thanks.
@ Daisy:
Wait, I think I typed too soon! I re read the men’s ministry page, and it did mention they host a chili cook off, but that seems to be the lone, stereotypical manly- man activity they have listed.
They also host a “Wives Appreciation Dinner”.
Appreciate them for all the hard scrap booking and knitting they do? 😆
I’m over 40 and never-married, I guess I would not be appreciated by anyone at that church?
@ Paula:
Since Jerry likes proof
“The church has occasionally experienced violent reactions; a man attending an evening service, October 8 2006, attempted to attack Driscoll on stage with a machete.This, and other similar events, resulted in the church employing volunteer security.”
http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Mars-Hill-Church-Growth-Story.html
Daisy wrote:
I look at my blogging as a form of scrapbooking. I remember what people do and say.
My daughter just texted me that she saw TWW mentioned in the Salon article: I told her that she will be able to tell her grandchildren about their nutty great grandma.
dee wrote:
No, I didn’t know that, and I hope you believe me when I say that is not what I meant.
I read all the posts back through 2012 (and most of the comments) before I made my first post. This not only educated me about the issues but convinced me that I wanted to be part if this community.
Dee, I didn’t save the link but I believe I read a post on a blog that was written by a man who said he was in attendance at Mars Hill during the incident. He said the man had a regular knife, not a machete. If I find the post again I will send it to you.
Daisy wrote:
Yes, I can see that, and it makes sense. We have women who put most of our men to shame when it comes to their intellectual ability, reading capacity, and their biblical knowledge. And one of them is already on our teaching staff. So I bet we could redo those pages to be more welcoming for those who may not fit stereotypes. Sounds like a good topic of discussion at our next board meeting.
If I could say one thing in our church’s defense. I do think we have an obligation to minister in the demographics of where we are. Our church is in a rural, farming community. Most of the men hunt. A large portion of the women love to cook and scrapbook. So I think it is natural for our church to take on some of those characteristics as well.
I wish you could meet my wife, I have a feeling you would have a lot in common. And of my three daughters, one is a total tomboy as well. Wouldn’t be caught dead in pink, hates dresses. She’s a junior in HS and can’t stand most boys her age because they are so immature. And that’s fine with me. 🙂
@ Marsha:
Yep- and he didn’t rush the stage or jump on it. He was stopped by security before he went into the service. I have heard that one as well and it has been confirmed by an expert.
So, I am trying to find out about the machete guy who jumped onto the stage. They sound like separate events.
@ Marsha:
I would love the link to see if it happened on the same day. If so, perhaps it is like “the fish that got away.”
@ dee:
I should probably clarify a little. When I hear “scrap booking,” I mean old fashioned, analog, paper and scissors, gluing- paper- to- a- book type of scrapbooking.
That type became very popular around the late 1990s. I had some lady co workers who were into it.
Businesses and art supply stores started selling all sorts of special doo-dads, paper things, paper stampers, that scrapbookers could glue to paper pages, or use to cut designs into the paper.
There is a virtual scrapbook site called Pinterest. I do use Pinterest to collect images. But I don’t use an old- fashioned paper scrapbook.
Jerry, we talk a lot here about spiritually abusive Christian leaders and rightfully so because it is such an important issue, but there are spiritually abusive congregations too. I read the story of a pastor who was forced out of his position when more and more members got caught up in Gothard’s legalism. There was a story recently in one of the Christian magazines about a church which invited back previous pastors for a public apology. The church had been dominated by a wealthy family and their friends and one pastor after another had been forced out for not dancing fast enough to their tune. The rest of the congregation finally took a stand and brought about change. It seems that we Christians run into big trouble when we put ego first rather than Jesus.
@ Jerry:
I would be happy as a clam if you could inform your church web master and church members to maybe reword things on your site to make folks who are not married with children, who don’t strongly fit the gender stereotypes, to feel welcomed.
And actually strive to make such individuals feel welcomed (not just change a site’s wording).
I appreciate you are saying you’re in a part of the country with a certain demographic, but… there are a lot of adult singles (never married, divorced, and widowed). Unmarried and childless adults are usually ignored in family-centric churches, or they just feel out of place because so much focus is put on married couples or marriage itself as a topic.
There are a lot of Christian women over 30 who have never married and never had children. A lot of churches are ignoring them and their needs.
Unmarried and Single Americans Week Sept. 15-21, 2013
Deb and Dee,
if you want to include this in a future post on gender complementarianism – not that the following is definitely, strictly due to gender complementarianism, but there is some kind of odd preoccupation with gender roles here by these Christians, and I would not be surprised if they are into gender complementarianism:
Fight Club – By Men. For Men. To Reach Men.
It’s some kind of national and international Christian group that promotes manly man behavior in church guys.
There is even a link to a “Store” on that site, where one can purchase stuff, such as a booklet that says “DUDES” with photos of tough guys on the cover.
For $249.00, you can buy a package (referred to as the “Ammo Can”) that has Fight Club posters, a Fight Club brand (??), wristbands, thumb drive with teaching materials, posters, and other stuff.
I suspect a lot of this Christian obsession with gender roles is fear or loathing of homosexuality and secular feminism, but I wonder if some of these guys are all about the money.
Christians have been peddling this types of stuff now a lot the last 10 – 15 years.
There was the manly man, Christian- produced “Courageous Movie” which sold related trinkets, and a series of books by authors telling churches how they can be more masculine, etc.
I learned of that site on a thread by people who were talking about a new controversial movie about churches that use cage or MMA fighting; the movie is called Fight Church.
A few headlines about that:
“‘Fight Church’ Documentary Features MMA-Fighting Pastors, Because ‘Tough Guys Need Jesus, Too'”
“Fight Church Trailer Introduces Fight Club For Christ” (from cinema blend)
@ Sabrae:
unfortunately i’ve seen articles on wicked shepherds that basically tell wives they are to obey their husbands no matter what
Daisy wrote:
This was the primary pursuit of the Infamous Doug Phillips, that of Vision Forum promoting the Manly Man: a mail order catalog where you team with various distributors who will drop ship to customers (with massive markups to take advantage of the naïve patriarchal crowd) knives, crossbows, handguns, maces, medieval torture devices, fully automatic weaponry with hollow tip bullets, Apache attack helicopters and intercontinental nuclear warheads to prepubescent boys so they can learn what it means to True Man of God. (I got a little carried away towards the end there)
“…to BE A True Man of God.”
Mr. Typo Strikes Again
@ dee:
Remember Dee…the fellowship of the onion!! 😛 For that headache you have after reading Mark Dever take a nylon and an onion and wrap the onion around your head! 😛 Give it sometime…and VOILA!! Problem solved!!
I view blogging as my form of journaling, except I do it openly. I get to think and put my thoughts down in cyber space and it allows me to wrestle with a lot of issues.
My biggest beef with Complementarianism (“Comp.”) is this: If you were to do a reading of their primary Scriptures in the same manner they read them (I.e. Men lead in marriage, women submit, no female preachers), you wouldn’t end up with what we know today as Comp. Today’s Comps are obsessed with overall gender roles, even bringing that ideal outside the realm of marriage and pastoral leadership.
The powers that be in say, the Gospel Coalition, reframe every female centered story in Scripture according to their Comp. Standard. The story of Deborah had nothing to do with either marriage or pastoring a church, but if you read Keller, there’s the suggestion that she didn’t really take authority as a judge, but rather she was just being the typical relational female.
That is vintage Comp eisegesis. Women not praying out loud in church? Comp eisegesis. A blackbelt refusing to protect her friend so he can be the protective male? Comp eisegesis.
I could come to a completely literal view of Eph 5 and still never join “Camp Comp”, simply because so much of it is based on certain individuals subjective wish to establish cultural standards, and not based on Scripture.
Lawprof wrote:
He certainly pursue the “Emotional Jesus; His Ups and Downs”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/robertcrosby/2012/06/the-emotional-jesus-his-ups-downs/
The Gospels say, too, that he experienced those darker emotions of a troubled human soul – loneliness, perplexity, alarm, dismay, and despondency (Mark 14:33; Luke 12:50; John 12:27). He may also have experienced the anguish of being tormented by subtle and not so subtle insinuations about his birth, i.e., that he was illegitimate, a child conceived out of wedlock – people called him “the Son of Mary” (Mark 6:3).
Correction: He certainly WOULDN’T pursue the “Emotional Jesus….”
Jerry wrote:
Fair enough. We have something in common. My wife almost never wears makeup, got her degrees in the hard sciences, worked in a male-dominated field, and made a heck of a lot more than me for several years. I have no problem with homeschooling, though, because we homeschool–that said, we’ve left the Homeschool Movement and groups because we got tired of all the slanderous things those sweet little homeschooled teenagers said about each other and our own children.
Daisy wrote:
And if they don’t listen, don’t obey the chain of command, don’t submit to authority, do do what they’re told, get out of line, stiff necked – just rebelious, hard-hearted and stupid? Driscoll will break their noses!
Jerry wrote:
These aren’t/weren’t meant as accusations, Jerry. Rather, as Daisy pointed out in regards to its gender stereotyping, your church website would fit with one done by people from the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. People who mostly think that Mark Driscoll is a good leader.
Further, as Dee has pointed out, you appeared on this comment thread to inaccurately find fault with how a critique was being presented. And when your inaccuracies were shown to you, you chose to double down while refusing to engage the substance of the story. This isn’t the first time the good folk at the Wartburg Watch or me, at my humble node on the interwebs, have experienced this kind of behaviour.
It is important that you understand, many of us have been engaging with the damage done by Mark Driscoll’s “leadership” since much earlier in the new millenium. As such, this site is an ongoing conversation which you chose to join. How you chose to join that conversation is why you’ve received the push back you have.
Your more recent conciliatory approach is appreciated. At least by me. 🙂
Pingback: Ex-Mars Hill Facebook Group Continues to Grow
TO OUR READERS! MAJOR NEWS
World Magazine is reporting that a lawsuit may be in the works against Mars Hill. A lawyer presented Mars Hill with a presentation letter asking them to stop destroying emails, etc. A presentation letter may have standing in a court of law. You can read about it at this link.
http://www.worldmag.com/2014/04/mars_hill_church_moves_to_destroy_documents
@ dee:
Looks like potential lawsuits in the making. At least they got smart about how to protect evidence.
Mars Hill scrubbing? Who would have thought?
TO OUR READERS
Why is Mars Hills seeking to destroy all those emails? That is the question that needs to be asked. Is it considered a gospel© purge?
@ dee:
Of course, they are saying it’s because they want to save money on electronic storage. I’m no techy, but isn’t storage super cheap? If not, can’t they just use Hotmail or something that doesn’t charge?
@ dee:
Could it be all damaging posts that Driscoll put up in years past about the “Pussified Men?” and the like? Could it be the evidence of Driscoll not taking kindly to disagreement? … and then firing people? … or seeing to their exit? I dunno, just wondering.
@ LawProf:
LawProf – As to the reading of the Bible, after I left the cultic church I was a leader at (had been going there 7 years), it took the better part of 2 years before I could even think about reading the bible. No matter how much our intellect understands otherwise, our heart – our gut -still hears the abusive twisting of the words when we read them. It takes time for that separation to happen. I’ve been out of there now for 7 years and I can read the bible now, but I still sometimes struggle with those old ‘voices of authority’.
As to NPD pastors and their lies….the day I decided to quit, I came in to the office (I volunteered full time, that’s a whole other story…) and was met by the head secretary (Sr Pastor’s mom) and told he wanted to see me. This was a ‘being called into the principal’s office’ type thing. I knew I was in trouble, but I wasn’t sure why.
Long story shortened as much as possible. Good friend in abusive marriage targeted by Sr Pastor, groomed and exploited. Pastor’s wife gets tired of it and confront girl. Girl acknowledges what has happened. Girl gets thrown out of church. Next day, there is a leader’s meeting where Pastor & wife read prepared letter that is not open for discussion. In it they explain why girl & family ‘decided to go to another church’ – she was ‘getting too close to pastor.’ They claimed they were up all night writing letter with the help of the Holy Spirit. Letter was full of lies that I knew to be lies.
When I was called into the office, it was to tell me to quit seeing/talking to said friend that was thrown out. As I had already decided to leave, something inside clicked and the fear of this man fell away. I confronted him about the lies in the letter. He called his wife in and asked me to to show where there was a lie. I pointed out the first one and the wife said that the friend told her…. But I was with my friend when this conversation (on the phone happened) and I knew she never said any of what they claimed. I told them that. Their answer? “Well, maybe we misunderstood. Now, where did you say that there were untruths in this letter?” At that point, I realized the whole exercise was a futile one.
After I got out, my friend and I discovered that he had done this multiple times. She was the 3rd that we have concrete evidence of. But we suspect others. My friend sued that pastor and that church. They settled out of court with a gag order (not on me, though, as I was not part of the action or settlement). It has been hard. I do not trust pastors. I don’t know if I ever will. I do not see myself ever being a part of a ‘formal’ church again. Between this experience and the abusive family/church experiences of my childhood, I just have no stomach for the formal church anymore.
@ dee:
Just a heads up – the tiny url link in your header (at the top of the page) for this story doesn’t work.
@ Jeannette Altes:
“I do not trust pastors. I don’t know if I ever will. I do not see myself ever being a part of a ‘formal’ church again. Between this experience and the abusive family/church experiences of my childhood, I just have no stomach for the formal church anymore.”
++++++++++++++
it’s high time that formal church is no longer seen as “normative” (Christian communicators’ favorite word these days) for someone who calls themself “Christian”.
we can be busy doing all kinds of meaningful and productive exploits for God without all the management.
@ dee:
I can’t find where I read it, but one of the former MH pastors at a satellite church in California, said he was told by MH to do something illegal (not pulling a required permit, I think) concerning a building they were meeting in. There’s more to it than that. If anyone else read this, do you know if that had any lawsuit potential?
@ Katie:
It has to be something that would be so damaging that it would cause the courts to overlook the “hands off” the freedom of religious practices.
dee wrote:
I posted this yesterday on Warren Throckmorton’s thread about the email retention/destruction policy, in response to another comment about possible state requirements on document retention. It contains some potentially relevant detail about civil lawsuit discovery processes and evidence destruction, which I learned about during the process of analyzing the defamation lawsuit against Julie Anne Smith et al, and archiving the documentation on her Spiritual Sounding Board blog.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/04/02/megachurch-methods-mars-hill-email-retention-policy/#comment-1317607349
It could be a state-by-state issue, but my understanding was that in both criminal cases and civil lawsuits, purposeful destruction of evidence (physical or digital) would *automatically require* the court to consider the information contained in that evidence to have been against the case of the one(s) who destroyed it. (In civil cases, it might have been that destruction of potential evidence is only relevant after a lawsuit has been filed, so the destruction would be during the “discovery” phase.)
I read about this in the Oregon case of 2013 [TYPO CORRECTION: Suit was 2012.] where a pastor sued former congregation members for $500,000 for defamation of character and slander/libel, in part because some of them posted negative Google reviews, blog articles, and/or blog comments about him/his church. Although the discovery phase was stopped automatically as part of the former members’ Anti-SLAPP counter-suit, at some point the issue/warning about not destroying evidence came up. And who knows … because of potential for civil lawsuits involving Mars Hill Church, such a policy on emails could become legally relevant, whether lawsuits emerge from issues related to the past or present, or going forward with the presence of Non-Disclosure Agreements / Release of All Claims and Indemnification Agreements.
At any rate, an organizational policy of systematic deletion might still have some unanticipated legal consequences. Anyway, it would be helpful if a lawyer out there could enlighten us on this and clarify/correct what I shared.
Katie wrote:
Probably here, Katie:
http://sinrepentancegraceforgiveness.blogspot.com/2014/03/transition-from-deputy-sheriff-to-pastor.html
@ Victorious:
I think that’s the guy, but honestly, I can’t figure out how to get to the rest of the story. I didn’t see how to read past the first page. (embarrassed)
Gospel Centered Coverup Deebs!!! Mark Driscoll and his staff could have worked in the Nixon White House. Instead of “Tricky Dick” we have “Tricky Mark”. Now all we need is a Deep Throat inside Mars Hill. @ dee:
dee wrote:
Yes, they are asking the same question on the FB page:
“What would possible criminal charges be — with RICO in a civil complaint,there still has to be a criminal charge attached. Where would criminality be besides possibly the missappropriation of donated money for private gain?”–Sonja Schroeder
Katie wrote:
I think this is the first page: How it all Started:
http://sinrepentancegraceforgiveness.blogspot.com/2014/03/our-story-how-it-all-started.html
The rest of the links are listed to the right of this page.
@ Katie:
Could it be that the elders/pastors are preparing to counter sue if Fiscal sues them for breach of contract, the nondisclosure agreements they signed?
Supposed to be @Deb
b>@ dee:
Any chance Fiscal broke tax laws and he has evidence pointing to this in those emails/posts?
@ Katie:
Hmm, maybe James Duncan over at Pajama Pages may have called it.
@ Katie:
I wonder about the $200,000 spent to give Mark a Number 1 swagger?
@ Jeannette Altes:
Whoops, I’ll try it again.Thanks
LawProf wrote:
Well. Isn’t that just delightful. The fruit, if I may say so, of a sick mind AND of an inadequate understanding of the facts of science. I mean, really, I am more & more grateful for my wonderful middle-school science teacher. (Who, by the bye, was also a member of my church, and would have been delighted to stand up there & then, & call the guy out on his theology and geology.
Eagle wrote:
You’re absolutely right. Hence, the lack of discernment in regard to MD & Co.
@ Katie:
I think what you are referring to is mentioned here:
Kyle Firstenberg discusses the Mars Hill Orange County eviction situation from 2012, executive leadership knew it was coming
@ Katie:
It’s also in this article:
Christian right mega-church minister faces mega-mutiny for alleged abusive behavior
, on Salon, written by Valerie Tarico
@ Daisy:
Yes, thank you, Daisy! That’s the one. But I think Deb is right that this wouldn’t be a big enough issue. It’s big enough to disqualify the pastor(s) behind the advice to break the law, but not enough for a law suit.
dee wrote:
What am I missing? Duncan is talking about how the CRUT works and that it’s technically legal, though shady.
dee wrote:
Everything I’ve read so far indicates that -again – this is shady, but legal. This is where there should have been better oversight at the church as to how the money was being used. It should also be transparent to the Body, as well. But not doing so won’t land him in a lawsuit … I don’t think.
@ zooey111:
I totally agree, Eagle & Zooey!
Thinking.
Yeah, I think there can be no lawsuit concerning the $200,000 and the zoning law thing.
But there does seem to be a huge email erase happening at MH.
Wondering, wondering, if they are going after slander or something.
You know, when MD threw people under the bus, they had to make those people evil and worthy of being roadkill for the greater glory of MD, MH, and, oh yeah, God.
Warren Trockmorton has a copy of the letter from the lawyer asking Mars Hill to cease and desist with the e-mail deletion. It leaves the section on clients blank but does say that the anticipated lawsuit will be about RICO, fraud, conspiracy, libel, slander, and intentional infliction of emotional distress.
@ Eagle:
I think it is especially potent on the younger attendees who have been raised to admire and almost idolize “heroes” ( an actor or a singer or a football player can’t, technically, be heroic unless they have done something exceptional – not just given a large donation – beyond their career, but they can easily be an idol). This is groomed in youth groups, where teens often feel special having their own pastor/leader, and are often pushed to idolize church leaders the way other teens idolize rock stars. This idolization creates the slack-jawed trance like behaviour many display towards their leader. They look for a church that has a person they can idolize (they call it ‘lead’), then they follow that person, defend that person and feel like they belong to something “Big”. I notice Driscoll set himself up as that sort of leader, near universities. It was no accident, he recognized the ease of growing a church with young youth-group reared attendees.
As I get older, I am less and less a fan of youth groups, young adult groups, etc. Churches are healthier if they can all join together for small groups or social events.
Marsha wrote:
What is RICO? I wonder what fraud they are going after? The rest is very difficult to prove, but with the way Fiscal runs his mouth, maybe they actually have a case.
RICO stands for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization. It was a law passed in 1970 so that Mafia godfathers could be prosecuted for giving the orders to commit crimes even though they had distanced themselves from the people who carried them out and from the details of how they did it. It’s heavy stuff and indicates that they are going after Driscoll.
@ Katie:
@ Marsha:
The part that may apply to Driscoll and the other top guys at MH is Corrupt Organization. The use of tax exempt donated money for a corrupt purpose (making it appear that Driscoll’s book was a big market hit) can easily fall under the RICO statute, and is also a fraud.
Secondly, a Non Disclosure Agreement is usually only signed at hiring, and perhaps associated with a promotion, etc., as a condition of employment, and, as long as the the NDA does not include non-disclosure of illegal activity. However, an NDA signed in exchange for severance may be illegal in and of itself, if presented at the end of employment as a condition for severance, and would be considered a corrupt activity and a crime if the NDA was intended or implied to cover illegal activity.
zooey111 wrote:
I’m ashamed that I allowed it to happen under my nose. This particular incident was just a weird, ignorant thing he said, kind of funny almost, it certainly wasn’t as diabolical as much of the other stuff he did. When I finally lived up to my calling as an elder and stood up to him, he went behind my back, told the leaders of the church I was a DSM IV sociopath/psychopath, and destroyed my reputation there. He doesn’t know it, but a significant number of the handful left in that church (maybe 3 dozen hanging on) despise him, will say it clearly behind his back, but none of them have the courage to take a stand, they’re too locked up in the paradigm of “pastor’s our leader, we must respect him, respect the office, don’t touch the glory, bear one another’s burdens”.
LawProf wrote:
What a strangely specific accusation to make – talk about projection! It always blows my mind how much we project onto others our own issues. Our old A29 pastor accused us of constantly talking behind peoples’ backs, and we later discovered that he and his elders were actually doing this very thing (closed-doors elder meetings during which the details of members’ lives were discussed).
Mr.H wrote:
Of course, that’s how they survive. They can’t face themselves, their own inability to experience empathy, it’s too painful, they are miserable and thus project a false image of goodness, heroism, wisdom to the world, hoping people will be fool enough not to see round their superficial charm, maybe even fooling themselves, when one of the flock begins to expose them, they oft fight back with projection. I think on some level they know exactly what they are and hate themselves for it, but if they can only keep pushing it out onto others, they can avoid an implosion. At least, this is what I’ve read of the type, and yes, I certainly do think Pastor E is either full-blown sociopath, NPD, or has strong tendencies, being around him is like being in the presence of a hollow shell, you try and find the humanity and it’s impossible. I should feel sorry for him, I want to, but it’s hard when I’ve seen what he’s did to me and still doing to others. There might as well be a literal monster in the pulpit that comes out into what’s left of the congregation and claws at it twice a week. Overly dramatic, perhaps, but I’d rather face a B-movie monster than a sociopath with a pulpit.
Mr.H wrote:
That’s the standard practice of Acts 29, SGM, MH and other destructive cults. Of course they whisper about you behind your back, and they never do it in a forthrightly awful manner like a band of thieves would do, that would be less evil, at least it would be honest; they cloak their own evil in self-deceptive righteousness. They’re only whispering about you for “your own good”, so they can know how better to “pray for your sinful heart”, they only slander you and destroy your reputation when they see you won’t submit for the “greater good of the Body of Christ”, because their mission is so important it needs some people who will ruthlessly support it.
@Eagle – I agree with you about evanglicals being lazy and wanting to be told what to think. I don’t get it either about how many very intelligent and educated people joined CLC. Look at the whole Claude Allen situation. So tragic!