"I regret I have to speak into this dispute which has escalated to a level that is unfortunate. What we are all struggling with is a tension in Jesus’ teaching. He associates with all “no strings attached” but that does not mean he affirms everything that person does “no strings attached.” He both associates and challenges…"
Darrell Bock, Professor at Dallas Theological Seminary
Christ and the Rich Young Ruler (Heinrich Hofmann)
Over the last several weeks, there has been a contentious exchange between Joe Carter and Jonathan Merritt that has played out on the internet. It appears to have begun with an article written by Carter, who blogs over at The Gospel Coalition. The article's racy title – Since Jesus Ate With Sinners, Do I Have to East at a Strip Club's Buffet – drew quite a bit of attention.
The inspiration for this article appears to have been the controversial news reports about Christian wedding vendors, such as Christian bakers, being forced to accommodate same-sex couples. Carter carries his argument to the extreme (please take the time to read it), and ends the post as follows:
Please stop arguing that Christians should be forced to violate their conscience unless you are willing to be consistent in its application. On this issue, what our culture accepts cannot be used as the standard. Fifty years ago, racism was tolerated while sexual sins were publicly denounced. Today, the situation is reversed. Many Christians (surprisingly, even some Anabaptists) are now willing to argue (or at least imply) that the state should be able to force Christians to serve at celebrations of sexual sin. Yet, these same people will likely balk at claiming that we should be forced to serve celebrations of racial sin.
If, like the Pharisees, you want to bind the conscience of all believers to a standard that is difficult, if not impossible, to support by Scripture, the least you can do is to argue for its broad application. Tell us that the white baker is not only obligated to serve a same-sex wedding but that the African-American baker is obligated to bake a cake for the Aryan Nation's national convention.
If you want us to follow your legalistic argument, then at least have the courage to follow it to all its logical implications.
In his rebuttal of Joe Carter's post, Jonathan Merritt published the following article (which we hope you will take the time to read): Setting the record straight on Jesus, 'the a friend of sinners'. Merritt states:
Many people know that the New Testament refers to Jesus as a “friend of sinners,” but what does that mean exactly? Apparently not what some Christians think it does.
In response to a twitter comment I made about Christian singer Natalie Grant walking out of The Grammys, Joe Carter, prominent Calvinist and director of communications for the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission rhetorically asked, “Didn’t [Jesus] only welcome those seeking forgiveness?” He went on to agree with another that “The sinners Jesus partied with were already followers.”
Jonathan Merritt also calls attention to another article posted over at The Gospel Coalition written by Kevin DeYoung and entitled: “Jesus, Friend of Sinners: But How?”
Merritt writes of DeYoung:
He said that Christians needed to be “safeguarded against doctrinal and ethical error” regarding Jesus’ social habits.
“Jesus gladly spent time with sinners who were open to his teaching…Jesus embraced sinners who believed in him,” DeYoung wrote before concluding, Jesus “was very pleased to welcome sinners who were open to the gospel, sorry for their sins, and on their way to putting their faith in Him.“*
The sirens returned. Was there really a conditionality in Jesus’ relationships? Carter’s and DeYoung’s assertions didn’t square with what I know about Jesus from the New Testament. Christ preached the Kingdom everywhere he went, but he also indiscriminately and unconditionally forged relationships with those at the margins of society, offering them a seat at the table. This scandalous social practice earned Jesus that nasty nickname to begin with.
The rhetoric became even more inflammatory when Carter argued from the absurd in this comment posted under Merritt's article:
Joe Carter
Mar 20, 2014 at 1:04 pm
Yeah, I think he did. But let’s see if people really agree that Jesus would hang around when people were “flaunting their sin” and not call them to repentance:
1) A Nazi keg party celebrating their latest massacre.
2) A set where a porn film is being shot.
3) A black mass held by Satanists.Do we really think Jesus would be cool with hanging out in these locations since he’s a “friend of sinners”?
As the comments became more contentious, a professor from Dallas Theological Seminary (who is mentioned in Jonathan Merritt's article) chimed in with these remarks:
Darrell Bock
Mar 21, 2014 at 12:05 pm
I regret I have to speak into this dispute which has escalated to a level that is unfortunate. What we are all struggling with is a tension in Jesus’ teaching. He associates with all “no strings attached” but that does not mean he affirms everything that person does “no strings attached.” He both associates and challenges. I discussed both points with Jonathan. We discussed the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery. In both Jesus engaged AND challenged. Jesus pointed out what he knew of the Samaritan woman’s life and Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. The mistake is to cherry pick the combination. How that works out in specific scenarios is a call of conscience. The motive for action will make the rule. So some will bake cakes, others will refuse. I am reminded of Paul’s advice on eating meat offered to idols. Eat and do not ask where it comes from, but do not go to the temple and if someone says it was offered to an idol, do not eat. Not a one size fits all settings rule, but one calling for reflection and discernment. In these discussions nuance matters and we should be more gracious for how we sort it out, realizing a hard rule on either side may say too much and no rule may say too little.
Several weeks later, Joe Carter wrote a follow-up post entitled: How a Too-Friendly Jesus Can Lead to Universalism
In it he explains:
I also feel it is necessary to let people know that many of the claims about my views in the article are inaccurate.
The posts by DeYoung and I were written to address whether Jesus would attend any and every kind of gathering of sinners. Merritt misrepresented us by saying we think Christians should only talk to soon-to-be Christians.
Then Carter states his grave concerns as follows:
Merritt has followed this logic to (at least one) wrong conclusion. He supports the contention that Jesus would have "baked the cake" for a same-sex wedding ceremony and that Christians should therefore also be willing serve at a same-sex wedding.
But is it really true that "Christ offers fellowship to all indiscriminately without condition, no strings attached"? If so, then we must follow that claim to all its logical conclusions, for Christ, for Christians, and even for the unrepentant unbeliever.
Let's start with the implications for Jesus and his followers. If Jesus would fellowship "indiscriminately without condition, no strings attached" then it means he would fellowship with any group of sinners while they engaged in any type of sin (that is what "without condition" entails). That means not only that Jesus would act in such a manner (i.e., hanging out with any sinners while they are engaging in any type of sin), but that we should do so too.
As stated at the beginning of the post, this heated exchange appears to have stemmed from Joe Carter's objection that Christian wedding vendors must provide products and/or services to same-sex couples. From my perspective, I believe that anyone who markets his/her services to the public should not discriminate. How about the Christian banker, doctor, attorney, etc? Can they legally turn away certain segments of the population?
On the other hand, I do not believe Jesus would have "baked a cake" for a same-sex wedding ceremony. In my estimation, that is a totally separate matter and should not be confused with an individual who markets his/her product or service to the general public. In those cases, the service provider must abide by the law of the land, and in so doing, I do not see it as an endorsement of any kind. Perhaps demonstrating God's love to those with whom we do not see eye to eye will serve as a witness and make a lasting impression…
Looking forward to reading your opinions on the matter.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 51:54-52:34 Titus 3:1-15 Psalm 100:1-5 Proverbs 26:18-19
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh No! Not Universalism! Seriously, is that supposed to be scary? I really don’t have a stand on the after life (nor does the Bible), but his Calvinistic roots are showing.
First, Merrit says Carter said: ‘Christians needed to be “safeguarded against doctrinal and ethical error” regarding Jesus’ social habits.’
LOL! snort, chortal, hiccup.
Jesus said “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood’ you cannot be my follower. He failed to make sure everyone went away from his comment without doctrinal error. Many did leave due to his radical sayings that were never clearly defined until much later.
Jesus also wasn’t forcing everyone to admit all their sins – yes to the woman caught in adultery, no to the Samaritan Well Woman. He could have said something about her current “living in sin” situation, but he doesn’t, instead he engages in the longest conversation recorded between Jesus and a person. He engages in her desire for something more in life, perhaps he just brought up her current and past situations to appeal to her great need for a better life, but he doesn’t bring up or ask her to repent of her sin. He engages a foreign woman in deep theology, with the Bible’s longest recorded conversation between Jesus and a person. There was plenty of room to include a “sinner’s prayer lead-up or Roman’s Road style witnessing, but he didn’t, he freely offers her eternal life without making her confess she is a sinner.
Shocking? Not really, fixation on personal sinfulness won’t become an obsession for another 1,100 years in Church History.
So, did Jesus hang out with sinners who didn’t suddenly confess their sins? Yep. …and sent them off as evangelists before they had confessed any sins! There is no record of Mary Magdalen confessing her sins either… but there is a record of Jesus making her his first Apostle post-resurrection.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh, was i first?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The idea that Jesus only associated with repentant sinners runs so absolutely counter to what I understand the gospels are conveying about Jesus that it says to me the “Gospel” Coalition are terribly, terribly off in what Christianity is about. I should note that I say this as someone who has walked away from the church, so I can be accused of not understanding Christianity. However, I think I understand it and the “gospel” Coalition people are deliberately not understanding it.
I don’t think I have to quote the scriptures on it–Jesus acted scandalously by regularly having table fellowship with people considered serious sinners by religious society. The gospels are shot through with this behavior. And despite what Joe Carter says, the Pharisees certainly didn’t think those sinners were repentant. They complained about Jesus eating with sinners or having a prostitute touch him when she was washing his feet.
The people who are saying that those who offer public services (e.g., floral services, bakery services) should be able to pick and choose based on their religious beliefs need to think beyond their attempts to hurt GLBT persons. Because that’s not where it will stay. I live in Mormon country–how long would it be before an evangelical Christian said they wouldn’t bake a cake or provide flowers for customers marrying in the Mormon temple because, well, the temple is satanic. (One need only read certain varieties of evangelical anti-Mormon literature to pick that up.) And that’s really what our country needs is services Balkanized along religious lines because people feel like they can’t serve X group. *rolls eyes*
As for the Gospel Coalition, this is just the latest in a long series of hateful beliefs bloviated forth from that self-important group of men. As I told them on their World Vision article this week (I did not go back and check to see if it was posted): “What a fun bunch of people you are. I’d rather go to hell than spend eternity with the likes of you.” This Joe Carter article only confirms my opinion of those men.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In these debates, the topic of divorce never comes up for discussion.
According to the Bible, divorce is allowed for adultery only, and if a spouse remarries, they have committed adultery.
How many pew sitters are divorced? How many pastors have officiated in the remarriage of divorcees?
They do like to cherry pick, don’t they?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sabrae:
They must have many hidden cherry pieces somewhere, from all the picking that’s going on. ..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2:
Yes, Ma’am, and from what I gather from most of these ‘theologians’, you’d need to glove up to go in after those pieces.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sabrae:
Whoa, well put
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb, I agree with you:
The Bakers discriminated against the same-sex couple assuming as they did the right to adjudicate on the matter through their publicly offered business.
Where the baker’s stance is celebrated shows an ignorance about the nature of discrimination and civil rights. I think the business should be fined if they haven’t been already.
Joe Carter apparently thinks he can take our laws into his own hands and like the cake bakers, confer rights upon individuals or groups by virtue of how well they judge them to be measuring up to their personal prejudices.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
Balkanization is the perfect descriptor of these “teachings.” 🙁
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anyone who reads the Gospels knows that Jesus often forgave people who never actually repented. Do a survey. It’s very interesting. It didn’t happen just once.
Some people want a Jesus who fits their buttoned down image of true gospelly Christianity, but they won’t find him in the Gospels. They have to invent him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Jonathan Merritt’s story:
“A Thread Called Grace:
How I came to stop hiding and face the biggest secret of my early life.”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/april/jonathan-merritt-thread-called-grace.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Re the baker/gay issue, conservative Evangelicals forget that if they can decide not to serve based on ethical conviction, others will be free to do the same to them. Some people don’t like Christians, conservatives, suburbanites, whites, etc. Everyone scratches up “ethical” reasons for their dislikes.
Plus, these Christians haven’t considered that some of their cakes will be served at ceremonies of other religions, for eg. But if that mattered to them (which curiously, it doesn’t), they often won’t know when it happens, since people are not required to tell a baker where the cake is going to be eaten. Why should bakers be arbiters of community ethics and faith? Their desire for it smacks of Calvin-run Geneva.
Moreover, it’s goofy to confuse the public sphere with the religious. A business is not a church. A Christian businessperson can be defined by: honesty, selling good product at fair price, offering decent wages, fair dealings, keeping a healthy working environment, caring about community.
There’s an appallingly amount of shabby thinking involved in this “issue”. Where did these people go to school?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
Hi Sabrae! I often enjoy reading your perspective, and very much appreciate it. A good friend of TWW, Tim, just wrote an excellent piece about this issue of divorce and hypocrisy. And, the one and only Joe Carter also appeared to add his comments there. Tim shares a fascinating view as a trial court judge for the State of California.
http://timfall.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/gay-marriage-heterosexual-divorce/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I can’t help but think a large part of the problem is the view that all sins are equal in the sight of God. Attending a wedding between two consenting adults is therefore comparable to patronizing a strip club where lust and sexual exploitation are sold or a party celebrating mass murder. Do they think orgies are standard practice at weddings between two men?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb, thanks for putting this together! I really appreciated Jonathan Merritt’s thoughts, as I think it tears down the walls Christians build to “protect” themselves.
No matter how disguised it is, this whole thing equates to legalism. Isn’t this just like Paul having to rebuke Peter for not associating with the Gentile converts. Pure legalism.
I’ve been around the Christian scene long enough to see all kinds of creative legalism.
“Don’t listen to that music.”
“Don’t go to that place.”
“Don’t wear that clothing.”
“Don’t worship with those people.”
“Etc, etc, etc……”
What does unconditional love look like? Wouldn’t we all truly long to see it in action today?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
Probably 9Marks Academy…er, make that Southern Baptist Theological Seminary!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It is not just Calvinists who wonder of such scenarios. An Arminian friend was shocked that we would consider selling our house to a Mormon! No, Mormons must remain homeless…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
–Off Topic–
C.J. Mahaney, the disgraced pastor who is a defendant in the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sexual abuse 20-year cover-up lawsuit, is speaking at
Together for the GospelThe Gospel Coalition's Anchored Conference in Arizona in June 2014.http://arizona.thegospelcoalition.org/events/event/9/anchored-conference/2014-06-20
T4G’sTGC's loyalty to a man who has already admitted publicly that he is a blackmailer, and several of whose co-defendants in the SGM lawsuit have already served jail time for child molesting, shows a remarkable lack of discernment.If
T4GTGC has so little wisdom in this area, can anyone really trust their ability to rightly handle the Word?(Editor's note: The Gospel Coalition, not Together for the Gospel, is sponsoring this first ever conference. We saw the announcement in the top right corner of TGC's website yesterday. As of 9:30 a.m. on 3/29/14, it is still there.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Godith wrote:
I understand….we sold our last house to….an unmarried couple…..she was pregnant, with twins….we caught flak for that….I guess it would be okay for the twins to live under an overpass….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In Joe Carter’s article, he says: ” After hearing their charges, Jesus tells three parables—about Lost Sheep, a Lost Coin, and a Prodigal Son—each with the same theme: rejoicing over the repentance of sinners.”
This is actually incorrect. Of the three, the prodigal son was the only one who came back to the father. The coin and the sheep were both sought after where they were, and particularly the coin had no way to get itself back where it belonged. And the rejoicing is because that which was lost has been found. Again, other than the prodigal son, there is no repentance mentioned in these parables. Maybe I am splitting hairs, but I feel this is a misuse of the passages that illustrate God’s great love for us.
I think Jesus used these three examples for a reason: there are those who want to come to the father, there are those who wander off and have lost their way, and there are those who don’t know they are lost and don’t feel the need to repent but God rescues them anyway. I am not sure about this, but I think it might have been C.S. Lewis who said something like “Not all paths lead to God, but there is no path that He wouldn’t walk on to find you.” Go and do thou likewise.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val:
Yep-what were you doing up so late?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
Thanks for the heads-up Janey. I had not heard of this. It is really no surprise that the T4G boyz are attempting to revive Mahaney’s conference career. They have steadfastly supported/enabled him throughout the sexual abuse scandal at Sovereign Grace Ministries, including many of the celebrities making guest appearances at Mahaney’s “church plant.”
I am hopeful that this June date will severely backfire on the Celebrity Club. The Nate Morales trial should have just concluded by then. The truths revealed in the trial could prove to be an embarrassing mess for Mahaney, his brother in-laws, and all the other Mahaney fan-boys.
http://thouarttheman.org/2014/03/29/sovereign-grace-ministries-sexual-abuse/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
Upon further review I have heard of this conference Janey. The T4G reference threw me off. It is actually a Gospelly Coalition event, though there is not much difference. Several weeks ago I wrote an email to the conference organizers urging them to reconsider having Mahaney as a speaker. I received no response. A friend of mine actually had a response, I think it may have been from Josh Vincent. He wanted more information on Mahaney. I have not heard what the outcome was, but it looks like it was of no avail. BTW, Rich Richardson, the SGM pastor in the video, used to be my pastor. I wrote him about Mahaney holding a mini-conference at his church this past January, but of course that was also an exercise in futility. These guys have such fierce devotion to Mahaney that if he were ever to end up in prison for not reporting sexual abuse to authorities they would probably lobby for a week-end pass for him so he could speak at their conference!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Erik:
I would have baked the cake for the couple. I would have attended their ceremony. My goal is the show love of God to sinners who are no different than me, except for the fact that I have Jesus. In case anyone is wondering, I would also speak about my faith when the situation was right.
I believe that people should have the right of conscience in the matter, however. And here is where it gets sticky.
Carter argues from the absurd. The Nazi example is over the top. See Dietrich Bonhoeffer for my response to that one. But, there are true problems within this arena. Should a doctor be forced to do an abortion if it is against his conscience and it is made legal? Where do we draw the line?
True story: How about the Muslim cab driver who refused a client at the airport because he noted that the man had a bottle of hootch in his bag? How about a company which disallows blood transfusions to be covered by their insurance because the owners are Jehovah Witnesses? You get the drift.
In general, I lean towards more libertarian principles. The simplest answer would seem to be to let everyone do what the want according to conscience and make sure that people are aware of a company or individual’s policies prior to entering into an employment contract, etc. Perhaps companies which would not cover blood transfusions could find ways for employees to purchase said services on their own but, for some, that would violate their conscience.
However, mankind is innately sinful so we can assume that people would take the easy way out. If insurances were found to be cheaper if one did not cover blood transfusions, you would find companies suddenly embracing a conscience not to do so so. So, we take them to court.
How does one prove what constitutes a right of conscience? Since our country is pluralistic, who is to say when someone is doing something out of conscience our out of greed or to avoid giving expensive health coverage to individuals? No longer can you say “Show me the church that you attend and we will read their policies.”
So, IMO. I think this is a difficult situation for all of us to figure out.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tell you what, I think a provider of any wedding service, whether bridal attire, flowers, cakes, catering, venues, music, should provide a checklist of “Biblical” sins to every prospective customer. Don’t just cherry-pick your favorite– put them all down. Have every customer check the ones they’ve been guilty of. Because of Christian beliefs, they may NOT serve any of those customers. They may then file for bankruptcy, dissolve the assets, and find another means to make a buck.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Great comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Let's talk reality in the days of Jesus. For what stand would someone agree to die?
Back in the time of Jesus, people were sold into slavery. Many landed in wealth Roman households in which parties went waaaay over the top. So, if you were a Christian and slave, would you bake the cake or go to the Coliseum?
In other words, just how important is this issue?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
One final comment and then I will shut up.
Years ago, I listened to a talk given by a doctor who struggled with homosexuality. He asked a very important question. Are we converting people to Christ or to heterosexuality? In other words, what is our goal? In the end, it is up to God to enter one's life through the Holy Spirit and begin to work it out. For me, first it is God. When God enters, we are all changed in one way or another.
Secondly, Matthew 16:18 says "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (KJV)
IMO, we are to go to the very gates of hell and pound on those gates, offering freedom to those enslaved behind those gates. The gates will not prevail! We need to kick them down and let the light of Christ shine into the darkness. However, far too many are content to stay in their holy huddle pontificating before the next Bible study.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Erik wrote:
That was indeed an excellent piece, Erik!! Thank you for posting the link!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
TW wrote:
This is BALONEY! This is a tactic used by people to shut others up. In a former church, I was concerned about an issue. I asked the pastor about it. He raised his eyebrows and said that I was the first person to ask about it. Since that time I have talked to maybe a dozen people who asked him that exact question before I did.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ TW: Here is his bio. This is a guy who doesn't know CJ?
Josh came to Trinity as only her third Senior Pastor in 2009 from Florida where he served as Associate Pastor for two years after graduating from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY with an M.Div. in Biblical Languages and Theological Studies. Prior to that, Josh interned for a number of pastors including a 9Marks internship with Mark Dever at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, D.C., and an academic internship with Russ Moore at Southern. Josh currently serves on the steering team for the The Gospel Coalition Arizona.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ TW:
Nailed him. This is from a thing that Vincent wrote on small groups. Look who he quotes — "The greatest danger to seeking sanctification on your own is that you don’t realize what you don’t realize. Pastor C. J. Mahaney said, “It’s been sobering to observe others who have chosen not to participate in a local church or in small groups. They have demonstrated a distinct lack of growth. What’s worse, they haven’t even been aware of their spiritual stagnation”"
http://www.tbcphoenix.org/small-group-rationale-part-3/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
TW wrote:
I caught that as well and have made the proper attribution to The Gospel Coalition in Janey's comment. There is so much similarity between these entities (TGC and T$G err T4G), that there's not much difference…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Janey:
That is an excellent post!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
And, the mormons might refuse to bake a cake for the baptism of a child in a nonMormon church, and on and on and on and on….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey, Dee, TW and others,
Thanks for all the research y'all are doing on the Anchored Conference, which I plan to write about soon. Can hardly wait! 😆
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
No Shirt, No Shoes, Not the ‘Proper’ Sexual Orientation, No Service?
Is this a Rosa Parks moment, perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
From Joe Carter’s article: “Please stop arguing that Christians should be forced to violate their conscience unless you are willing to be consistent in its application.”
That is the pot calling the kettle black. The same people who have conniption fits over “violation of conscience” aren’t consistent in their application. Just another whitewashed tomb.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
To Our Readers Re: Mars HIll
An amazing blog has just opened called Repentant Pastor. Former pastors of Mars Hill are confessing their sins!
http://repentantpastor.com/category/confessions/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“But I’m a columnist and not a Bible scholar, so I decided to investigate in case I was wrong. After all, hell hath no fury like a Calvinist scorned.”
🙂 I think I like Jonathan Merritt.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The gospel coalition continued support of all things mahaney saddens me as someone who is a PCA member, and a fan of most all of what tim keller writes/preaches. From what I’ve seen, he isn’t as rigid as say lig duncan, but at some point he’s got to own this maheney thing….the gc is his baby, and either he puts an end to the mahaney love fest or through his silence, is complicit in it, which sadly will begin to taint my view of his works.
TW wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wise words from Marvin Olasky at Worldmag.com, http://www.worldmag.com/2014/03/a_fathers_grief
“Those who equate current homosexuality battles with the civil rights battles of 50 years ago miss two crucial distinctions. First, discrimination then was against persons, and that seems rare today: I’m not aware of cake makers or photographers refusing to bake cakes for, or photograph, gays generally. They just don’t want to provide goods or services to celebrate same-sex weddings: actions, not identity. Second, the Bible does not make distinctions based on race but does distinguish between holy and unholy actions”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Erik wrote:
Thanks for the shout-out, Erik. It’s encouraging to be found fascinating!
Cheers,
Tim
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Probably the first time that I (mainly) agree with someone from DTS on a secondary issue.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
andrew wrote:
As a PCA pastor, I agree completely.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
And I would have to carefully choose any wedding vendors based on an extensive checklist as well… They must go to the right church, live in the right neighborhood, not serve anybody I might disagree with, no skeletons in the closet, etc… Good luck planning a wedding living by those standards. In real life my cupcake baker is most likely a mormon, my future sister in law and her wife are providing the music (future sil is gifted at any instrument she plays along with being an opera singer), the florist is probably a mormon, the photographer is a mormon, the makeup artist is a guy who is lutheran, the minister accepts homosexuals at his church, etc… Oh, and my fiance and I plan on attending an episcopal church with a lady minister after we are married. My extended family isn’t too happy that so many different beliefs will be represented at the wedding but I don’t care. A room full of people who think just like me is both boring and dangerous. 🙂 Oh, my fiance is actually the person planning the wedding – its taking everything I have to prepare to pack and move all of my stuff, along with an old cat, 1400 miles.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Deb, one thing that I didn’t see from both Merritt and Carter is the fact that it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. Not everyone responds with repentance, of course, but his kindness always precedes repentance, not follows it. In answer to Carter, I’d say that Jesus associated with sinners before they even knew they needed him. And in answer to Merritt, I’d say that by associating with sinners Jesus showed them God’s kindness which in turn made repentance possible.
Cheers,
Tim
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
What if they had Jesus, just like you?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
In my experience, Mormons never refuse to make money.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thanks to Bock for being the voice of sanity. I thought the whole interaction was immature. I appreciate multiple perspectives, but I can’t for the life of me figure out the harshness of Carter. He really comes across poorly. To make matters worse, he clearly changed his message throughout the course of the discussion – which is fine – but then made it seem like that is what he was trying to say all along. It’s disappointing to me when the public faces of Christianity engage this way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Tim: That scripture is often overlooked. It is one of my favorites!!
On the other hand, many religious folks have a way of redefining words such as kindness . . . "Kindness" to many folks could mean making sure someone knows God hates their particular sin more than my sin, and they better not forget it. 🙁
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
If a Baker cannot choose whom to serve, then we need to abolish all those signs that say "no shoes, no shirt, no service" or "no concealed or open carried weapons permitted". And probably also "service animals only".
In business, I must be able to choose whose business to take and whose to refuse. I can discriminate on whether or not I'm too busy or if the work will yield enough profit or whether the business will positively contribute to my branding and image. So how the state compelling me to accept certain business de facto taking over my entire business by making me take all business!?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I read those letters of confession. This stood out to me:
From Kyle Firstenberg's letter:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chris F wrote:
Just don't claim Christian conscience and then only exclude one type of "sinner." That just makes you a hypocrite.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
They are capitalists…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mandy:
Weddings are stressful enough to plan! I vote for eloping.
Your wedding sounds like it’s going to be wonderful.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
“MOM!!!!! THERE ARE UNIVERSALISTS UNDER MY BED!!!!!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
I assume “Without Doctrinal and Ethical Error” describes Carter’s Party Line?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mandy wrote:
As long as she’s not a hyperactive Pink Party Pony…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sopwith wrote:
More like a Chick-Fil-A Moment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Like find a pulpit and preach “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
I’m going to be honest. This is in my neighborhood* and I have said if these guys came into my neighborhood I would have to do something. I guess I’m going to dust off my picket sign. “C.J. Mahaney Condones Child Abuse” or something like that. I am DEAD SERIOUS. I don’t want people to think that Arizonans approve of giving honor to C.J. Mahaney.
Dear Gospel Coalition: I am really serious. I, a middle-aged woman, will be out there with bells on to express my disgust with your invitation to C.J. Mahaney. And that’s because you guys live in a bubble and need confrontation in a bad way. Honoring a guy who covered up child abuse by giving him a speaking slot is abominable.
* Yeah, ok, it’s 20 miles away but it’s only 9 miles past where I work at, so to me, neighborhood. And, actually, I’d probably take the light rail to avoid parking issues.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve read this blog for quite some time, and enjoyed reading through these very active comment boards.
Thank you for the warm welcomes, and it’s wonderful to now participate in these discussions. 🙂
A number of publications ( and Christian Post comes to the forefront here ) appear to have a running contest on which Pharisee is most self-righteous.
“I hate them more than you do.”
My stance on the subject is this ~
Every American citizen is equal under the flag. Anything less is legalized segregation.
The fact that in this day and age, and especially in the Land of the Free, that we are still fighting for equal rights speaks volumes about the true State of our Union.
Oh, we talk a good game, but when it comes right down to it, this young nation has a very long way to go.
As to the Pharisees in question ~ When you look down your nose at others perceived sins, you yourself slide down another few inches into the dung pile of self-righteousness you’re standing knee deep in.
As it states in Revelations, “You who state you want for nothing don’t realize that you are poor, wretched, blind and naked.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
raswhiting wrote:
These are totally foolish words. Especially when I look at the past and see how there were so many “good Christians” in the South who were opposed to interracial marriage and used their religious beliefs to prosecute people. (I’m not going to quote Judge Bazile again. Go look up Loving v. Virginia.)
This logic simply does not work. To throw out the example I gave earlier: What is the difference between the action of a gay marriage and the action of a Mormon marriage? What will Olasky say when that evangelical cake baker refuses to bake a cake for a Mormon wedding in the temple because well…SAAAAATAN, what is the everloving DIFFERENCE? I want to wring Olasky’s neck!
As for holy and unholy actions, that is utter *garbage*. Olasky picks and chooses what unholy actions he will refuse to sanction. I don’t hear him going on about divorce and remarriage, for which there is considerable evidence that the Gospel writers thought Jesus was against it.
After what happened with World Vision this past week, I am convinced there is a significant well of animus against GLBT persons by quite a few Evangelicals and they’ll come up with any old argument they can to justify their continued prejudice. What is Olasky going to do when same-sex marriage is the law of the land?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It’s hard to discern tone on the internet, but from whatever we can discern, Carter came across as terribly immature and petulant in this whole exchange. Judging by the way DeYoung and Burk rallied around him, we have to ask ourselves once more if this is really all about Christ or membership in some sort of exclusive “gospel club.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chris F wrote:
Your sign argument is bogus. The “no shoes, no shirt, no service” and “service animals only” signs may be required because you’re a food service establishment where *government regulation* has certain requirements for serving food. As for the “no concealed or open carry weapons permitted” sign, here in Arizona, in order to keep people out who are carrying, a business owner must post a sign. I patronize a local pizza parlor (which serves beer) because it has one of those signs in the window. I appreciate the fact that the owner realizes booze and guns don’t mix.
And now for the rest of it: So what’s to keep a business to go from saying, “I won’t serve gay people” to “I won’t serve African-Americans or Mexican-Americans”? We’ve been through this before and the courts have said that if you provide a public accommodation, you provide it to EVERYONE. You are not permitted to discriminate. I can’t believe we’re having this discussion on a serious basis in 2014 when the law was absolutely settled on this subject when I was in law school back in the 1980s. *headdesk*
Case law on the subject: Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States (1964) where the Supreme Court ruled the Commerce Clause could be used by Congress to compel businesses to comply with the Civil Rights Act.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Atlanta_Motel_v._United_States
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I find the interchange interesting and informative. This is what MALE theologians do. It really is pretty much a guy’s debate. Our male linear thinking is on display. I hung out with these type guys for awhile, I always enjoyed the arguments. It was one of the favorite pass times of the Bible College men’s club – of course we also talked about cars, sports and wives. We rarely talked about sex however though I was part of one absolutely hilarious interchange at a faculty prayer meeting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
raswhiting wrote:
There are many unholy actions. That is the problem. For example, in solidarity with those who have filed the Second Amended Lawsuit for SGM, should I refuse to make a cake for CJ Mahaney’s birthday. What about atheists? Can I refuse to make a cake for them? How about Mark Driscoll? How about a cake for Bernie Madoff? How about if i say you yell at your kids or use the Lord’s name in vain?
The question is: How do I determine what unholy actions I shall or shall not serve? I can name all sorts of unholy actions, including some of my own. Should you now refuse to make a cake for me?
Where so i draw the line? And if it is individualized then how do we function in a society in which everyone is going to have a beef?
Help- anyone….where do we draw the line?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ E.G.: 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Let’s see- go after Jonathan Merritt and play kissy kissy with SGM?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
andrew wrote:
Good comment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mandy wrote:
You sound a lot like me.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tim wrote:
Awesome. The gospel boys, however, will redefine “kindness” as telling you that you are going to hell.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
These ‘theologians’ seemed to have missed the point, and they had to work at it to do so.
According to the Bible, it was the Pharisees who had decided that those who Jesus spent time with were ‘undesirables’. It was they who called them sinners, looking for reasons to try and convict our Lord.
Jesus had plenty to say about the Pharisees behavior, and by comparison, little about those ‘undesirables’ he hung out with.
In fact, the Sermon on the Mount is Anti-Pharisee from start to finish.
Do these ‘theologians’ actually read the Bible, or are they just making it up as they go along?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Clay Crouch:
How do I become salt and light is the question. Do I do it by boycotting a function or by going? I am not going to answer for anybody else but me.
Let me tell you something that Justin Lee told me. He says that every homosexual in the world know exactly how evangelicals feel about them. So, what if I went to that wedding, smiled and was kind? Assume that I am still the person that you see on this blog which means people know where I stand. I have actually published my view on this which is what is known as Side B.
OK-I go to the wedding. Everyone knows that I am Side B. I show that I care about them. What might that speak to them? I am still Side B but I want to be in their lives, nonetheless.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Bridget:
🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Clay Crouch:
One further thought: Are some people avoiding it because they actually don’t want to tell people what they think? Maybe avoidance is not a stand but a convenience in some cases?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I am so glad you saw this. I did as well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
They are coming for you…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
My views are probably the closest to Bock’s as mentioned in the original post.
Jesus seemed to be willing to hang out with anyone, but he was not fine with people’s sins.
A lot of Christians seem to confuse Jesus’ willingness to easily associate with and to forgive people as being whole- scale approval and acceptance of sin, which I find intellectually dishonest, troubling, and unbiblical.
Re:
One of the bakers who got harassed by homosexual rights bullies had been baking cookies and cakes for anyone and everyone. I believe some of his customers were homosexual.
He had baked them cakes for their college graduations and other such occasions. He only had qualms about baking a cake specifically for a homosexual marriage ceremony.
In that kind of case, I can see where such bakers are coming from. They consider baking a cake for a wedding ceremony to be, in a manner, forcing them to condone or participate in something they feel is sin.
Like asking a pro-life baker to bake a mangled fetus pro-choice cake for a pro-abortion rally. I can see how could do harm to a person’s conscience.
I appreciate the arguments of people about why they feel a non- homosexual- marriage- supporting Christian should go ahead and bake a cake for a homosexual wedding, but I wish I saw as much graciousness and tolerance from those on the opposing side. The bakers who balk at baking the wedding cakes sometimes get demonized by some on the pro side, which I don’t feel is fair.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I have a suggesting. Get ahold of Amy Smith of SNAP or any other SNAP person. i bet there are some in your area. I bet a couple might show up to your protest.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ScotT wrote:
Many of these guys huddle together. They are not used to having anyone question their POV. Some remove comments which are pointedly not in favor of their POV. Many of them have few friends outside of the gospel crowd.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
That doesn’t mean she did not need to repent, or that Jesus did not expect her to, or wish for her to do so. He did quite often say in the Gospels to people “repent for the Kingdom is at hand.” It was something he expected or wanted people to do.
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” (Matt 4:17)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
It looks like you were! Congrats!
It’s too bad we can’t win carny, amusement- park type prizes for being first.
You post first, and Deb and Dee shoot you a ceramic, bubble wrapped doo-dad, a $2 stuffed animal, or some other inexpensive tchotchke through a vacuum tube connected from their homes to yours, like those tubes you use in bank drive thrus. 😆
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tim wrote:
And may I add, straightforward, logical, and compassionate all at the same time!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Chris F wrote:
I believe in the right of conscience. I am opposed to compulsory action by the government but where do we draw the line? That is a question that few people seem to be able to answer.
I am hoping to get someone with the wisdom of Solomon to tell me where it stops? This is a very complex and difficult issue.
For example, you seem to be OK for the government to set sanitary measures. But, in NC one cannot purchase raw milk while one can do so in Virginia. So even these standards are arbitrary.
There was a case recently in which the owner of a restaurant refused to serve a vet with a service dog. The vet was suffering from PTSD and the owner did not agree with allowing pets in a restaurant.
I am not here to give anyone answers. I do not know how the government should draw these lines. That is why I tend to stick away from politics and deal with how we as Christians respond to these matters. Even in this situation, it is obvious that Christians have a wide spread of ideas.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is kind of off-topic, but not really. It’s about being obsessed with sin and what that does to people who are autistic, anxious and have a strong OCD component.
I used to judge every interaction I had with people as to whether or not it met some sort of standard of rightousness. *Every* interaction. To give an example: I worked five years on a technology help desk, taking calls from people to help them with their computer issues. I judged *every.single.call* I was on. And some days I took 60 calls! I did this while I was on the call. After the call. When I was driving home. When I was going to bed. Did I do right? Was my tone correct? Did I treat them properly? Did I give them the brushoff when I really knew the answer and just didn’t want to deal with them? On and on and on and on. Our calls were being recorded for quality control purposes, but I was better than any quality control recording because I did more than my share of browbeating of myself.
When I walked away from the church, the little voice in my head (and there was one) went away. One day I realized the voice was *gone.* It was such a relief not to have that hyper-critical “voice of conscience” mentally kicking me around day after day after…and I let that voice continue for so long because I thought that “voice of conscience” might be the Holy Spirit speaking to me. In point of fact, it was probably some OCD delusion.
The reason I mention this is because The Gospel Coalition men and many, many others think that harping on sin is the way to go. Maybe most normal people can brush it off, but if you’re autistic, anxious and OCD, it doesn’t get brushed off. It gets internalized, turned over and mashed around until it’s unrecognizable. What ultimately happens is that you start seeing sin everywhere in your life and it’s exhausting and incapacitating to have any sort of interaction with others because of the internal judgment (to say nothing of what you think they might be thinking).
I don’t think The Gospel Coalition and their friends think about what kind of mental effects their preaching might have on persons who are not mentally in the same place they are. I wish they would show some grace.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
When you conduct business in the public sphere, you are to follow the laws governing business.
Discrimination is against the law.
Now, if you want to narrow your business to say, baking cakes for churches only, that’s legal.
This is opening a Pandora’s Box. How about an ER physician who then refuses to treat Mormons because he personally see that as sin?
Airline pilot? Store clerk? Policeman?
We left this nonsense some time ago, and we are a better nation for it.
As to the blowback coming from the gay folks, it seems they can give as good as they get, and judging by our collective Christian behavior towards them, I’d say we have it coming and then some.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Patrice wrote:
Some businesses have already started to do that very thing.
Arizona Pizzeria Protests Anti-Gay Bill By Refusing To Serve Lawmakers
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
Not all Christians share those interpretations about marriage, remarriage, and divorce.
You can find some alternative views about those subjects at Crying Out for Justice blog (cryingoutforjustice.com), and the writings of David Instone-Brewer.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I used to visit blogs that discuss some of these topics regularly.
More examples I recall, about Muslims in Europe and the USA:
Women Muslims who refuse to take their driver’s license photo without their burkas (their faces are hidden, making the point of the license a little moot).
A woman Muslim grocery store worker in the United States who refused to ring up a customer’s frozen pizza, because Muslims are anti-pig (pigs are considered unclean), and the customer’s pizza had pepperoni on it.
Muslim cab drivers who refuse to pick up customers who have service dogs (dogs are considered unclean) and customers who have a bottle of alcohol with them.
There was a blog page by a guy (I think he was a moderate Muslim and in Europe) who had ordered a Pooh Bear book for his little daughter.
The book was from a Muslim re-seller. He got the book in the mail and was astonished to see that the re-seller had taken a black marker and crossed out the Piglet character (who is a pig) on all the pages.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Dee, The government is not mandating that anyone receive or use birth control, only that insurance pay for it LIKE ANY OTHER MEDICAL SERVICE. And the finding by the insurance industry is that providing free contraception actually reduces the cost of medical care. So it is not that anyone is having to pay for it, but will be saving money if it is covered. So if someone objects to saving money by providing it, they can donate the money to some worthy cause.
And further, the whole thing is based on a definition of conception being when sperm meets egg, which is an interesting change from long time medical practice. As you know, there is substantial evidence that a large percentage of that stage being lost without any awareness by anyone. Traditional practice was to talk about conception consisting of sperm meets egg and implantation having occurred.
And the change in language of the states of development, with huge pressure to back up the terms to earlier and earlier, so wanting to call a fertilized egg a baby, rather that a blastocyst, zygote or fetus. Near the end of our first and second year of marriage, my spouse and I lost two pregnancies to early (late 2nd or early 3rd month) miscarriages, one of which was in the records of the Catholic hospital as a (spontaneous) abortion. We did not even consider having a funeral or other rite, only that God had created a means to deal with some genetic or developmental error, so that we praised him while sad about the loss of a pregnancy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ raswhiting:
Be careful. Olasky is a dangerous person who is using words differently than most would understand them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Here is a link to an editorial about this. It takes the position opposite yours.
Kirsten Powers’ Understanding Of Sin And Conscience Lacks A Biblical Foundation
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
To be the contrarian in the thread….
1) I am against legalism in all of its overt forms. Secondary theological issues are not the basis for salvation. For example, I am an “Old Earth” creationist(ala Hugh Ross’s “A Matter of Days”), but don’t think a belief in YEC, or, evolution, will cause someone to lose their salvation. With that being said, I would contend with someone(gracefully I hope) who disagrees because while good theology does not save, bad theology can hurt(extreme example…snake handling).
When I say “overt” I mean in the sense of demanding that others adhere to my positions. For example, I like the show “Modern Family”, there are people who for moral reasons will not watch it. That is fine that for their conscience they refuse to watch it. It would not be fine for them to demand that I not watch it because it makes me unchristian. But it would be fine to have a “debate” about our differences, recognizing that regardless of where we end up because of the debate it doesn’t necessarily say anything about our salvation.
2) I do believe there ARE some important lines and distinctions that Christians should make and defend. To go back to the “Modern Family” idea….I do not watch pornography because it is sinful and destructive. If there was someone in my church who claimed it was perfectly moral and acceptable and they regularly consumed of it, we would have a problem. I do not believe I would be wrongly “legalistic” to say, “this is unacceptable behavior for a Christian”.
In a bigger sense, if there was a Church that was hosting “Porn Viewing Parties” I hope we would all be in agreement that there was something inarguably wrong about that. I would contend that overt and celebrated sexual sin is incompatible with Christian life and Discipleship. If this was occurring, I would perhaps take it upon myself to write a “letter to the editor” to explicitly explain that such and such church is not representative of the Gospel and how I, as another local pastor, was disappointed to see a “sister” Church encouraging sin.
To take this back to an actual practical example. 50 years ago I hope that I would be willing to write a letter declaring my disappointment in “segregated” Churches because it was not representative of the Gospel.
Now, obviously, where we should be drawing that line between what we can accept and what we cannot(watching Modern Family —> Watching Porn) can be difficult. But the degree of difficulty should not dissuade us from working diligently, biblically and humbly to do so. Perhaps each persons “line” will be located in a slightly different local than others, but there should at least be a degree of similarity that we can have unity on. For instance, we can all accept “Porn not ok….Modern Family ok”.
3) Regarding the issue of the providing services for specific events that may or may not directly conflict with ones moral/religious/ethical convictions, I believe in giving individuals a fair degree of leeway. Someone here posited that Christians wouldn’t be too happy if that policy was used to discriminate against them. I disagree. If a “muslim” taxi cab driver refused to drive me because I was carrying alcohol(which I am wont to do), I am ok with that.
Within that concept though there is a degree of basic logic that should be employed. For instance, my personal identification AS a Christian should not be the basis for discrimination. But, some of my particular behaviors CAN be used for a basis of discrimination. For practical example, as an evangelical somewhat reformed pastor I would be fine with a “Gay” photographer not wanting to photograph my wedding because he finds my views on marriage incompatible(and even offensive) to his beliefs. I do not believe in forcing him to do something against his conscience.
So, while you may not agree with a particular baker choosing to not participate in a SPECIFIC event, I do not believe there can be a case made that a Christian is COMMANDED to do so. If a Christian was refusing service JUST because of someones orientation, race, religion, I would be against that 100%. But I support any individual not wanting to be involved in a strictly defined SPECIFIC event.
As another real world example: We have a large “anti-circumcision” movement in the US today. I don’t agree, but whatever. I don’t think a caterer who is fiercely and morally opposed to “genital mutilation”(as they call it) should be legally coerced into providing services for AND attending a Bris. That’s just silly. I 100% disagree with their position, but I fiercely defend their right to practice it. But, if they made everyone “drop trowel” to check for their intactness before they would take their business, I would have a problem with that.
Perhaps I am illogical and cannot see this correctly….but I don’t think there is any issue in making these types of distinctions and defending ones right to stand by them.
4) Regarding the Carter/Merrit row…..I read both Carter/DeYoungs original post, Merrit’s “interpretation” of those posts, and, Carter’s response to the interpretation. I contend that Merrit did indeed grossly misrepresent what they wrote. And, if the content of his article is accurate, he also grossly misrepresented their views to many other prominent theologians and pastors. Regardless of whether you like/agree with either Carter or DeYoung I hope that we would always be opposed to anyone being misrepresented in damaging and unfair ways.
Seeing as no one other than my mother reads my blog(cough cough http://www.theologicalinklings.blogspot.com)I am not sure how I would respond if I found that someone had cherry picked a portion of what I wrote and went around basically defaming my name and view in a publication and “privately” to other pastors that I respect.
I probably strongly disagree with a large degree of the theological positions of this site and many of the commenters in the threads here. But if I would ever discuss your views I pray that I have enough respect and integrity to interact with what you actually intend to mean and what you said. Not just a caricature of your theology that would make my criticism more “powerful”. At least in this case I don’t think that is what I perceive Merrit having done.
5) Generally speaking there seems to be a large degree of being quick to criticize based on theological differences vs actual behavior. Not in this article, thread, or many other portions of this site(which I do read regularly), but in Christendom in general. We start with the assumption that because “they” think differently than us “theologically” we are convinced of their being associated with many terrible behaviors before all the evidence is available.
They are Arminian Egalitarians = They are surely presiding over Gay marriages and are a bunch of Universalists….
They are Reformed/Calvinist Complementarians = They abuse their wives, their congregation and are so glad they aren’t going to burn in hell like nearly everyone else….
Perhaps in some cases those conclusions are accurate. But I don’t think it is BECAUSE of their theology, but they abuse that theology to ACT how they already are committed to doing so.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
This concept can also work in the other direction.
One reason of several I am grappling with whether to stay or leave the Christian faith is a lack of consistency by self professing Christians on doing what the Bible says and agreeing with the Bible on what it says.
Christ said if you love him, you will obey his commandments.
However, I see a lot of Christians these days not only not consistently living out the Christian faith themselves, but attempting to ignore, water down, or outright deny that the Bible says “X” is sinful behavior.
So they will defend “X,” or excuse it. I spent my whole life consistently trying to live out the faith, but after my mother’s passing a few years ago, I started noticing a lot of adult Christians do not even try to do so.
It’s fine to talk about God’s acceptance and love, even in spite of people’s sins, but I get troubled by the over- emphasis on it to the point where the standards and commandments in the Bible are made to be moot, and by some Christians, no less.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Chris F:
NO. The standard is that if you are openly offering a service to the public at large, you must treat all comers equally, without regard to their race, creed, culture, gender, etc. That means if you are overbooked, you refuse everyone, without regard, until you resolve your overbooking and can take a new client.
As an attorney, I do not handle criminal cases, it matters not who it is. I do not handle contested divorces (I did until early this year, but will not take any more). I will take agreed ones, but my new contract says that if the agreement falls apart, my services terminate. (I usually do a pretty good job of getting agreement and keeping it, with my goal being fairness that preserves a peaceful relationship on behalf of the children and parents. I do small estates, not big ones. I do wills and trusts and other “what if” documents for anyone willing to pay the fee, unless they have a lot of money, in which case I refer them to those who will provide the ancillary services I do not provide.
So, if you provide services to the public, you must serve all the public willing to pay the price you charge for those products or services. Of course, you can refuse to be public, and not advertise your services (no storefront, no ads, no flyers), just word of mouth. BTW I know a wedding cake baker/decorator that does very well by word of mouth, but who serves everyone until her calendar fills up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Thank you so much for bringing this up Daisy. I was going to post the same thing.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Only virgins need apply!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Another thing, though, is that the baker may not know much about the person ordering a cake, unless that customer volunteers the information.
Someone above was saying, “If a baker refuses to make a cake for a homosexual wedding, he will have to be consistent and refuse to bake a cake for a couple remarrying after a divorce.”
That presupposes that the baker knows that much personal info about the couple ordering a cake.
It seems to me a lot of the homosexual couples ordering a cake specifically for a homosexual wedding tell the baker from the start, “We are a homosexual couple; this cake will be a wedding cake for a homosexual marriage.”
If the divorced- and- remarrying couple places a wedding cake order, I doubt many of them go into great detail about it and tell the baker,
“Hi, my name is Stan. This is my fifth marriage, I was divorced four times prior. This is my wife Jane’s third marriage. Please bake us a wedding cake.”
I bet most such couples simply say, “We need a wedding cake,” without mentioning their personal marital histories.
(You can’t go on age, either. I’m over 40 and have not been married yet myself, so you can’t assume a 40 something asking you, the baker, for a wedding cake is on husband number 2, 3, or 4.)
Maybe if there was a “don’t ask, don’t tell policy” in place for bakers, a lot of this situation could be avoided.
Have one half of the homosexual marrying couple come in alone and place a wedding cake order, no need to mention to the baker it’s a man marrying a man or lady marrying a lady ceremony.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Two–no, three thoughts on that.
1) I have a BA in government and to me “The Federalist” means the collection of papers written by Madison, Hamilton and Jay to support the ratification of the US Constitution. I know why it’s being used in here in this manner, but it’s jarring to see it used in this fashion.
2) I very nearly had an OCD anxiety moment reading that thing.
3) I was reminded of a comic I read in French class back in college (over 30 years ago now). Basically, the protagonist starts removing all of his clothing because each piece is made by a company that he can’t support (and he details why as he’s removing each garment). He finally gets down to his underwear and ends by basically throwing his hands up in the air and cracking a non-sequitur joke about Richard Nixon. That’s kind of how I feel about when people start going on about “participation is affirmation.” Where do you draw the line? Are you going to go around naked and not participate in anything?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I just visited the website repententpastor.com. It is new and under construction but confession letters are posted from four pastors. The confessions range from gut-wrenchingly honest & broker (Leif Moi) disappointingly short and generalized (Dave Kraft). I wrote 2 comments-one very positive for Lief Moi, the second not so positive but quite polite. My comments are “awaiting moderation”.
We will see if the non-effusive comment gets posted……
In general, this site looks like it has enough ‘teeth’ to really begin to chip away at the M Driscoll & MH eddifices.
No one reading the Lief Moi confession could doubt that the Holy Spirit is at work here!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Good suggestion, I will do this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
However, I can only discuss me and what my thinking is. I have made my views known of the subject. I posted them. So, you can know where I stand- Side B-and how I choose to respond in context of that stated belief.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Jesus added to this, to say that if a man looks with lust at woman, he has committed adultery as well.
Now look at the list in the Bible who won’t be entering the Kingdom. Liars, thieves, drunkards, sexually impure, etc.
I honestly believe that all these things were to illustrate His Holiness and our wretchedness, and what He was telling us is, ” You can’t see Heaven without Me.”
Just as the law was pointing us to our need for a Savior, the Savior Himself was driving that point home in His teachings.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Sometimes by not joining the crowd or giving it your stamp of approval, you can send a message that jabs a person’s conscience and makes them re-evaluate their life or morals.
Growing up, I did not feel comfortable or right about telling dirty jokes at parties (or anywhere else), drinking alcohol (mostly because I hate the taste), telling dirty jokes, constantly and casually using vulgar language, going to bars and night clubs, etc.
I don’t see where the Bible specifically calls out any such behaviors as being sin per se, but especially in my teens and through my early 30s, I felt as though such activities were not Christ-like, so I did not participate in them myself.
I did not judge those around me who did drink, go to bars, etc., though. I did not sit about with a haughty attitude, looking down my nose (literally or figuratively) at the drinkers and dirty joke tellers around me.
Yet, I’ve been around people (including one sibling) who drags me to bars and parties, whose conversation is punctuated with the “F” word every other sentence, and so on. I feel uncomfortable the entire time I am in bars or in parties where all the adults are telling dirty jokes.
I have noticed that when you are the only non-drinker in the room, or the one person who is not dropping the F bomb, or not laughing at all the obscene jokes – and you’re not drawing attention to this fact and not judging others for them doing it – they never- the- less get very agitated and uncomfortable.
My one sibling who used to frequent bars – I think she knew deep down her lifestyle was not exactly God-honoring, and my reluctance to go along with it all convicted her (or was used by the Holy Spirit to convict her).
(That was not my goal. I was not passing judgement on her, but she felt judged anyhow).
I didn’t have to say a word. And again, that was not my even my intent (to make her or others feel judged).
I felt uncomfortable that I was making other people feel uncomfortable by not joining in. I am a wall-flower and introvert who does not enjoy being the center of attention in social events for any reason, certainly not for making people fidget because I’m the one guy in the room who won’t crack a dirty joke or kick back a beer with the rest.
My sister used to try to egg me into drinking and bar hopping. I kept saying no. (I did end up getting dragged to a few bars anyway). The fact I would not jump in and go to it made her question her own behavior.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Of the homosexual couples I know, they go to great lengths to not draw attention to themselves. They know most of society has already condemned them. I seriously doubt most of them will flaunt their marriage to a cake baker.
What probably gives them away is when they both show up to a cake ordering or cake tasting appointment.
If a “Christian” baker wishes to discriminate based on his “conscience” then s/he had better start applying those standards to all the customers. Or find another way to make a living that doesn’t violate his/her “conscience.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Victorious wrote:
Woo-hoo, I hit the trifecta! Thanks, Victorious!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
And that’s a sad gospel to preach, isn’t it Dee?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sabrae:
I think it can also be a form of discrimination to force a Christian baker to bake a cake specifically for a homosexual wedding ceremony if he regards homosexuality/ homosexual marriage as sinful.
Why does the homosexual couple have to let the Christian baker know they are homosexual? Why not just the one man come in and order a wedding cake and not mention it’s for a homosexual marriage?
Why does the homosexual couple have to seek out a specifically Christian, baker who they probably know is opposed to homosexual marriage, why not go down the street to patronize ‘Big Gay Joe’s House of Super Great Gay Wedding Cakes’ bakery?
I don’t think some of these couples are truly interested in a wedding cake, but they are interested in stomping on Christians who may be opposed to homosexual marriage. It’s an excuse to bully people who don’t share their views.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Yep, as if ranking sins was ever part of Jesus’ preaching. It’s all or nothing, and I’m glad Jesus took care of all my sins on the cross so now I have nothing left to try to deal with on my own.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele
Suggesting, suggestion….oh dear.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Adam Borsay wrote:
I forget where I saw or heard it, maybe Fighting for the Faith broadcast, but we are already there.
Thre are seeker friendly churches who feel fine using sex as a draw to increase audience numbers.
I think it was mega church pastor Noble who said he would feel fine using stripper in a Sunday morning church service if it would get more rear ends in the seats. I think that quote was references in a Fighting for the Faith broadcast.
Other churches have in fact put in stripper poles and shirtless, hunky male dancer guys on stage to get more members at their churches.
You might be aware of Ed Young Jrs “Sexperiment” and Driscoll’s kinky sermons of the past. Some preachers think that by being sexually titallating and appealing to the lowest common denominator, they can get more people to show up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
HUG and I would both qualify, as we are both virgins.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sorry for the mashup post, Daisy.
Some people can multitask and do several things at once. I am not one of those people. :/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Janey:
Thanks for the correction, Deebs. You’re right, it’s The Gospel Coalition (TGC).
Frightening how loyal TGC leaders are to celebrity pastors, despite proof that Mahaney’s conduct doesn’t meet the standards of 1 Timothy 3 for leaders to be “above reproach.”
As an Evangelical I don’t find The Gospel Coalition to have credibility. It’s some sort of disturbed fan club rather than true followers of Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
As I said above, Christ obviously must expect Christians to actually live by his teachings at least some of the time…which include holy living – because he said, “If you love me, you will obey my commandments.”
He also said, “Why do you call me “Lord Lord,” but do not do what I teach?”
The Bible says in the NT to not just “read the word” but put it down and go “do what it says.”
There are expected standards of behavior for Christians, e.g., (1 Cor 5),
1 Cor 5,
I don’t think any Christian can live the Christian life 100% perfect at all times, but the Bible conveys you are expected and capable of doing it more or less consistently.
If someone claims to be a Christian and is not, or does not, regularly reflect a changed life, there are verses which address that, such as,
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
K.D. wrote:
Well… er …. ah … you could have sold it to Samaritans instead? Levites?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
You should read the editorial I linked to above, as it addresses that argument,
Kirsten Powers’ Understanding Of Sin And Conscience Lacks A Biblical Foundation
A lot of homosexuals I see in our culture, as on the blogs and news reports, are singling out Christians for the express purpose of bullying them and harassing them on this issue.
I have never liked bullying, and the homosexuality to me on this is somewhat of a tangential topic.
Some homosexuals have driven Christina bakers out of business over this. They could just go down the street to patronize another baker, but some of them choose to ramp up negative focus on the bakers who don’t bake cakes for homosexual weddings.
If it was just about getting a cake, they would drop the matter and move on to another baker.
There was a Christian couple in the UK who owned a bed and breakfast who got hate mail, hate calls, and were driven out of business (or close to it) because they do not allow homosexuals to spend the night in the same room together.
(They also went on record as explaining they do not accept hetero unmarried couples who wish to spend the night in the same room).
Someone even killed an animal and left it nailed to a fence on their property, and the timing of it suggests it was from some of the homosexuals upset by this couple’s position.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I was really touched when I read Jonathan Merrit’s dad tweeting this to Jonathan: https://twitter.com/drjamesmerritt/status/449518008311230464
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
But they don’t have to.
If it was just about getting a cake, one guy could go in alone and order a cake, or go to a bakery that is known to be fine with homosexual wedding cakes.
Most couples who are divorced and going on marriage two are not known to tell wedding cake bakers, “This is our second marriage.” If you’re not telling the baker your personal details, he has no way of knowing.
And many of these bakers I’ve read of are already serving homosexuals: they have said they have clients who they know are homosexual (I don’t know how or why they know about the sexuality of the clientele – I don’t tell people, “Hey I’m a hetero!” when I go in to place an order on stuff, but regardless), but they have baked college graduation cakes, job promotion cakes, etc.
They only draw the line at the wedding cakes in particular. They’re fine with baking cakes and cookies for homosexuals for other celebrations, they are only upset about wedding cakes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
Yes, it will. And you can bet that “Christian” bigots will be the first ones whining to the govt. about their rights being violated.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I did read the article Daisy, and I still don’t agree with the POV.
I don’t like bullying either, whether from homosexuals or heterosexuals. It’s wrong. And I know first hand just how “Christian” heteros can bully a young boy whose mother is lesbian. Let’s call out the bullying. That still doesn’t make discrimination right.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mandy:
You rock!!!!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Janey wrote:
I realized it right away as I was reading your comment because I saw the post about the conference over at The Gospel Coalition website yesterday morning. When we first started blogging, I used to get TGC and T$G (aka T4G) mixed up a lot.
I couldn't believe that TGC is sponsoring it. First they come out with their silly endorsement of Mahaney (which they later had to qualify) and now this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
My wife (of course heterosexual) and mother of our many children, was asked to the high school prom many years ago by a homosexual female friend. My wife did not have a date (we were going to go together, but I had an unexpected commitment thousands of miles away and had to back out). My wife said “Yeah, sure”, and there in front of the school she was escorted to the prom and danced with an open lesbian. My wife had been a Christian for three years at the time (and she did not and still does not believe the practice of homosexuality is right–she believed at the time and still believes it’s an abomination) and her date knew full well that the matter would be strictly platonic, just friends dancing. “A” knew my wife was a Christian and she certainly knew my wife wasn’t a lesbian–but “A” learned that at least some Christians are capable of just being kind and not caring a whit about what the moralists of the world think of them.
I don’t believe my wife-to-be sinfully encouraged “A” in her sexual struggles, as nothing went on, she just wanted to be kind to a friend and give her a chance to go to prom. I think a lot of Christians, “in the name of God”, perpetuate a tremendous amount of cruelty when they sanctimoniously judge the world and nitpick over public policy–and yet the Bible is explicit in saying not to judge the world (but rather to look inward first, then towards our brothers or sisters last). Jesus said nothing about public policy (expect pay your taxes) and the writers of the New Testament said nothing either, except the simple admonition to not be scofflaws.
I believe simple kindness would probably cover a multitude of sins and might well touch peoples’ hearts.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
“Just like Rule 34, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Now imagine all the men who’d show up if they introduced Ritual Temple Prostitution…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Daisy, much agreement here. Either way, the gay couple or the baker could have shown ‘bigness’ by exercising choices that avoid rancorous conflict. Now they have forced the state to play Solomon with the infant on his dais. Don’t get me wrong, I am a great admirer of our court system and would argue that it’s the best and fairest on the planet. Most of the others are about what the King’s men can and will do to you. Ours is about what the King’s men may not do.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
I agree with you, and there are a number of corrective passages in the Bible written by the Apostles which cover circumstances they had encountered.
Jesus has spoken of the greater commandments, which is love, mercy, kindness, faithfulness.
” He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? “
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
Tit for Tat, if nothing else.
“They refuse to serve us? Two can play at that game!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Julie Anne wrote:
Wonderful! This is good modeling of a father-son relationship in the Body of Christ.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
But then the Loud Crazies like to showboat.
And the Professionally Perpetually Offended flock to places and situations where they can be Offended in Public. Specifically so they CAN be Offended. Especially to the Big Audience of a sympathetic Media. Otherwise, they’re Nobodies.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
It seems to me that the issue at hand is not about where does one draw the line so much as it is about who gets to decide where to draw the line.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Because you’re DIFFERENT.
Doesn’t matter what the DIFFERENCE is.
There’s some research somewhere that shows when a group gets around 80% commonality, it forms a critical mass; groupthink sets in HARD, and the chickens flock around and start pecking the defectives to death.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m going to do a little exercise here and show you why your discrimination fails, Daisy. I am sorry I have to do this.
Daisy wrote:
*snipt*
*snipt*
Also, I’d point out that gay and lesbian community would prefer that you use gay and lesbian when referring to them. “Homosexual” is almost exclusively used by right-wing Christians who are trying to make a point about sexuality and is considered offensive by the GLBT community.
I’ll also note that I’m mixed race, but you’d never know it from looking at me, I look like a freckle-faced middle-aged white woman. But I know from where I come from and I know my ancestors engaged in marriages that were illegal. So yeah, I’m a teensy bit sensitive about this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Tim, appreciated your blog post, and your exchange with Joe (who I thought behaved in a less than mature manner, I thought the unicorn/horse bit, in addition to serving as a poor analogy that brought nothing substantive to the discussion, was off putting). So the bible calls homosexuality an abomination, and these guys run with it to make it their platform. Yet, when Jesus talks about hanging millstones around the necks of those who cause children to stumble, they’re content to stay silent, or in worse case, even defend CJ. It is truly sad, and despite all of their appeals to peoples intellect, their approach to CJ is logically inconsistent with their approach to homosexuality. I don’t expect anyone to be perfect, certainly not my pastors/teachers, but if you’re going to put yourself out as a moral arbiter, you better be consistent in your application. These guys have lost so much credibility in my eyes.
@ Tim:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yes, I know that. (I have a reply to Daisy in moderation)
There are good and awful people of every persuasion and orientation. I think we should approach every situation as is. But, in reply to the OP, I don’t believe someone should be discriminated against based on orientation.
Heck, most “Christians” decrying the homosexual “agenda” won’t even sign a petition calling out child abuse in the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
The compromise solution where I am is to wear hijab (the full headscarf that shows the face) instead of chadoor or burqa. The Islamic Modesty argument got a setback when the Muslim woman who brought the suit and insisted on the burqa was found to be on the lam — wanted for some serious felonies in another state.
That is why in Islamic Third World countries, you have seeing-eye SLAVES instead of seeing-eye dogs.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
This has a formal theological name: EXCESSIVE SCRUPULOSTITY.
It is considered a variant of OCD.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Daisy, you seem to be using an odd definition of bullying and applying a standard to homosexuals that you don’t apply to any other discriminated against group. The states where these cases occur have antidiscrimination laws on the books that cover homosexuals. Any business operating in those states does so under the condition that they offer services without regard to their customers’ sexual orientation, race, religion, etc. The gay couples who were denied services took the same exact remedy that black people, mixed race couples, Jews, Christians, and individuals with disabilities use routinely. Yet you term it bullying because they’re gay. You propose that they could just conceal that the wedding is between two men (ignoring that people pften make assumptions about race and how truly unusual it is not to reveal the identity of both members of the couple to a wedding vendor) or go to another vendor. But the whole point of antidiscrimination law is to relieve the minority or less privileged of the burden of having to hunt down an accommodating vendors or deceive vendors about their identities or beliefs. Your suggestions echo what was and has been told to black people, women, members of minority faiths, the disabled, interracial couples, and everyone who is inconveniently different for centuries. Following them perpetuates injustice.
There is a tension between the rights of free exercise and free association and the rights of minorities to participate fully in society. I get it, I really do. But the problem is that if you say a baker’s right to religuous freedom trumps antidiscrimination law whwn it comes to homosexual weddings, you don’t have a principled legal basis for denying him the same right when it comes to interracial or interfaith weddings. And it wouldn’t stop with bakers or weddings. Antidiscrimination law would become toothless, an empty promise, as the exceptions swallow the rule.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Or a third party could order the cake. When it comes, have your own set of little groom or bride dolls.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It seems that everywhere Jonathan Merritt shows up, controversy follows. I don’t know this guy. What is up with him?
I don’t know Joe Carter, either.
I don’t think that either of these guys really represents any significant leadership in the Christian community. It all causes me to say, “Who cares?” I can get opinions from the people in my church on a variety of issues. They may differ. They may agree. But what they think really doesn’t matter.
That’s how I view these comments.
Professor Bock seems like the only sane person in the room.
Finally, I would give complete leeway for people who spend their own capital and energies to start a business to decide whom they will serve and whom they will not serve. I believe in economic freedom. I believe that coercing people to do things with their property is both morally wrong and ultimately harmful economically.
There is a sushi bar near my office. The guy runs the place like the soup Nazi. He has ousted some of my friends because they don’t order what he likes, they stay too long etc. He now has a sign on the door that says, “Only good customers.”
That’s his right.
Bakers don’t have to bake for any celebration that wants a cake. To refuse does seem counterproductive, but again, that is the owner’s decision.
I am sure that I don’t know all of the facts in the case, but my understanding is that the baker serves gay customers (how in the world would a baker know who is gay or not?), but that the baker doesn’t want to bake and decorate a cake for a so-called gay wedding. I suppose the baker wouldn’t bake the cake for a heterosexual customer who wanted to order and present a cake for a so-called gay wedding.
This goes on all over the country all of the time. There are just so few times when the issues are brought to a point that controversy erupts.
I find all of it sort of funny really. Of all the subsets of meetings in the U.S., the assertion that gays can’t find bakers or florists to provide products for their weddings is absurd. If I hear that these participants in the celebration can’t find a hair salon, then I am really going to get suspicious!
If a customer came into a Jewish bakery and ordered a cake for a celebration of a young Jew who had converted to Christianity, it would not bother me one bit if the baker did not want to make a cake. Maybe the cake has an inscription such as, “Welcome to the Kingdom from the Tribe!” As an aside, many Jewish people I know are very into business, so there may not be many objections. But if a Jewish baker objected, I can’t imagine forcing him to bake the cake.
And I can’t imagine any group of Christians then complaining that there is simply no one that will bake the cake of their desires, or further, that if this bakery is not forced to bake the cake, it will cause bakers everywhere to not bake cakes for Christians.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is a very complex and difficult subject, and of course there are no easy answers.
Something I have found to be helpful is to focus on my own heart in these sorts of tricky circumstances. We know from Scripture that God is primarily concerned with our internal conditions (motives, thoughts, desires), even to the extent that these override external conditions (ritual purity, etc). So when I am forced to confront a difficult decision that has no simple, clear answer, I do the following:
(A) write down the possible answers I could make and choose an initial one based on how I feel
(B) question why I made that initial decision. What am I drawn to it? What do I hope to accomplish with it? Do these goals and motives align with what we see in Scripture of God’s motives and goals?
(C) if necessary, I ask God to recalibrate my heart, so that my motives and desires would reflect his, as much as possible.
(D) as a last “check,” I try and imagine what my conversation with God will look like when I stand accountable for my life. When we get to this particular decision, what would he say and what would I say?
As a real life example, my wife and I were invited to the wedding of a gay family member. My initial reaction was to decline. As we processed this and discussed it (with friends and family), I realized that I was being guided by fear: fear that I would be “affirming” gay marriage, which led to the bigger fear of offending the Lord. However, God never operates out of fear. He operates out of love, and out of a concern for holiness (and holiness is really an issue because we must be holy in order to be in relationship with the holy God). We analyzed the situation and came to the conclusion that we were not responsible for the decision of our gay family member. This person was going to marry regardless of our attendance. They are also not a believer, so we decided that we had no responsibility to “hold them accountable.” We decided that we DID have a responsibility to maintain a loving relationship in order to maintain the privilege of proclaiming God’s love for this couple.
In considering what I will say to The Lord on judgement day, I have decided that I will explain the above decision-making process and tell him that, because he loved me and made the first move towards me while I was *still a sinner,* I wanted to try and do the same for others, so that they too would have a chance to hear the amazing message of God’s radically gracious love. If I made a mistake in all of this, I will apologize to The Lord with confidence in (a) Jesus’ sacrifice which covers each of my sins, and (b) the fact that, even though my outward actions may have been in error, they proceeded from an inwardly pure and loving heart.
Just my own personal thoughts and experiences. Obviously there is no cookie cutter solution.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Deb:
When it comes to being above reproach, those congregations who worship TGC celebs seem to subscribe to the standard: “All [Christians] are equal, but some [Christians] are more equal than others.” I have seen members publicly disciplined and shamed for personal, private sin, while elders commit far worse (and illegal) sin and remain in power with the support of the church members. The worship of authority in these churches truly borders on cultish.
And lest we forget who the
rock starsspeakers are at Anchored 2014:http://www.anchoredconference.org/speakers.html
Common denominator: The Master’s Seminary.
Guess who is the man behind this conference’s curtain.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sopy-
Don’t know if you are reading right now or not but I am praying for you!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ burntnorton:
I agree that the state should decide who/what is a protected population. However, was it not that the recent case in, where was it Arizona?, was in a state where those denied the cake were not in a legally designated protected group at the time? I am not saying that makes it right or wrong, only that the law may not apply as widely as some might think.
I do not think that the cake bakers should bake the cake for the gay wedding if it violates their conscience. However, I do think they should go do something else for a living, There are some things in the practice of medicine that I would not have done, not ever, no how, no way, not in this life. Those things, however, are legal. “But and so” I chose a medical specialty where no such issues arose. I believe, with Daisy, that christians have to refrain from participation in sin as much as possible, and the fact that such cannot be done 100% is no excuse for not trying. And refusing to publicly condone sin has to be an option. But where there is a matter of conscience then the owner of the conscience must “own” the responsibility for making some hard choices for themselves. Demanding that society change to suit the individual will not work.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
I agree, the problem with our Reformed-Calvinist saturated evangelical view of Christianity is that nothing can happen until a person repents. In the case of the Samaritan Woman, Jesus doesn’t require this of her before she goes and evangelizes her town. It isn’t a formula, where we have to get all our ducks lined up in row, before we can go live the New Life. Someone could not repent of a certain sin and still do thing effectively for a while, it would just be something they would need to deal with on their journey towards true freedom in Christ.
Here is an example. We had an amazing young-adult pastor (actually 2 of them) when I was at University. They were both in seminary and then, once they graduated, they took jobs at other churches. We missed them so much, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and our prayer times with them were truely heaven-breaking through type experiences (notice, no conferences, amazing worship bands, or large crowds, just a few of us praying). Then, a new guy showed up, I didn’t know it then, but via fb connections now, he was a Calvinist (I wouldn’t have known what it meant back then anyways). We weren’t nearly as happy with him as we were with the old pastor. Anyways, we went to our annual retreat and his idea of praying was for us all to sit in a circle and confess our sins privately. We were all like ???? OK, now lets pray! He was upset, we just didn’t have time for some morbid repentance session (besides, none of us felt we had any outstanding sins), and wanted to get on with asking God, praying to God and getting answers. I am sure the new pastor was flipping out thinking we were all just completely aware of our sinful state, the funny thing was, it was God who convicted me more than anything else is life, and I just trusted God to tell me directly if anything was amiss. We didn’t feel the need to sit there and worry if we were in sin, we just enjoyed God’s presence.
The woman at the well is excited that she has found what she has always wanted, she is now free to evangelize. There are no silly requirements that you need to confess all your sins before you are saved. In time, many more things will be revealed as you journey with Christ, but it is a non-essential at the moment of salvation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Have never ever heard of nor seen this in practice – have lived in several Islamic countries (and live in one now) AND have had the pleasure of working with advocacy groups for the blind in the course of my job, too.
Daisy wrote:
Do you have any more specific information regarding this fact, i.e. name of churches, denominations, locations?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I also just want to point out that many of the Pauline passages being used to argue that “participation is affirmation” are primarily concerned with idolatry. This means that the context of such material is significantly different than the context it is being forced into by sloppy and irresponsible exegesis. Participating in an idolatrous religious ceremony is not simply affirmation…it is directly denying that the Lord is god alone, and worshipping a false god. This is, perhaps, one of the most serious crimes in all of Scripture. And it is very different than “affirming” a gay marriage. My attendance of a gay family member’s wedding had no bearing on my beliefs in the one true God of the Bible or my allegiance to him alone.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Carter wants proof that Jesus hung out with unrepentant sinners, does he?
OK: Judas.
On the night he was betrayed, Jesus washed Judas’ feet, ate with him and revealed who he was to Judas and the other disciples.
He did not avoid Judas, refuse to hang out with Judas or reject Judas. So, I guess that is our cue with sinners.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I was talking about people who could get a wedding cake if all the rules were being tightly enforced!!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mr. H:
I really like your post. That is an excellent way to think about things.
Your post allows for the person to decide where their conscience leads them.
In a free society, if we let people choose based on their own consciences, we are going to be o.k. Some will choose one way. Some will choose another. Commerce works that way. And freedom flourishes.
It’s usually a very bad thing for Christians, of all people, to end up on the “anti-freedom” side.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I know these subjects are very charged. Everyone has the right to exercise their beliefs and convictions within the private realm (within their home, church, family, community, etc). People long before us fought for those rights for good reason. I support Daisy and any others for their stand.
Things just don’t work quite the same in the *public* realm. When you open a business offering services and goods to the public, you are expected to abide by myriad laws concerning taxes, employment, wages, OSHA laws, and, yes, who you may refuse to serve. From what I can tell, there is yet no federal law regarding orientation. But some states do have laws protecting those of different orientation. I believe we will likely see a federal statute in the near future. If people are strongly opposed to this, they should probably not operate a business. Those laws are in place to ensure that everyone plays well and gets along in the public sphere. This has nothing to do with forcing anyone to condone someone else’s behavior or beliefs. This article does a fair job of explaining the difference, though it doesn’t really get too specific about orientation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2598118/
“For instance, some people still think inter‐racial marriage is immoral. However, if their restaurant is open for public business, they cannot refuse to serve an inter‐racial couple, no matter what their conscience tells them. If they find the thought of serving the couple too painful, then they can just close their restaurant (if they own it) or work elsewhere (if they are employees). We should not legally or morally recognise their claim of conscience.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Anonymous:
Indeed. If I stamp out your conscience (by law or intimidation) and you stamp out my conscience, where does that leave us as a nation?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
This is an interesting one; worth pursuing. Jesus knew about Judas from the beginning; i.e., as the gospel accounts tell us, he knew about Judas personally, and he knew what the then Scriptures declared about his betrayal. On the basis of all of that, he drew Judas into his inner circle (you might say that Peter / James / John was his innermost circle, but you know what I mean). I agree that this is our cue with sinners, and indeed with anyone.
Take almost any fragment from the Biblescriptures™, and you can find another fragment from the Biblescriptures™ that will contradict it. (With the best will in the world, any quote from the Bible cannot help but lose at least some part of its context in the quoting.) It requires wisdom to know which fragment(s) apply here and now – to be exact, it requires the wisdom of the Author. Jesus had very specific reasons for hanging out with Judas rather than with, for instance, the men who hired Judas. A question we should ask more often, perhaps, is: what is the Holy Spirit drawing our attention to in this specific place and time and to this specific person?
What disappoints me about the whole Gay Thing (and other matters like abortion and, certainly here in Scotland, euthanasia) is that the Church collectively is too splintered into denominational and doctrinal subgroups, who have (per Hebrews 10) abandoned assembling together, to come to the kind of agreement that says: it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Daisy:
Agreed. I think the problem is that the cake baking for a sinful ceremony has a definite celebratory feel to it. Yes, we should love all and want their good, but it does cause problems of conscience to participate in the celebration of a sinful action. (I posted above about being judged for selling a house to Mormons. Mormons shouldn’t be denied fair market housing because of their beliefs, nor does my selling them a house indicate my approval of their beliefs). I would not want to be the florist for an Aryan Nation celebration. On the other hand God does not require me to delve into private business of people before I serve them. I wonder if there will be any cakes or flowers at the conference where Mahaney will speak? Would it be OK to deny serving that gathering, or would showing love by serving (with its implication of approval) be the right thing?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: a chador doesn’t cover the face, though it is possible to grab part of it and hold it so that it partially covers one’s face.
I’ve seen Saudi women whip scarves into veils in seconds, then back off the came.
Also, niqab is a separate face veil. It’s worn by many women, though by no means all. There are plenty of Muslim women who’ve never worn hijab and don’t intend to start doing so, but you probably don’t notice them, since they make no attend!pt to cover their street clothes or hair.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val:
So let’s all hang out with CJ Mahaney.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Rafiki: thank you for bringing some reality to bear on these comments!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort: good post!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
So too the Christians who loudly prate about persecution in this country when they don’t get their way, as in not being allowed to stop a mosque from being built.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val:
What a great testimony! I have been in prayer groups before, and confessing sin publicly was never a part of it. When I led Moms in Touch at my children's school, we would have a brief time of silent confession before we moved to intercessory prayer.
After hearing horror stories in some Calvinista churches, I now see it as an abusive form of control over the flock.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney: yes. Like the petulant children in Jesus’ statement about the children crying in the marketplace…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I want to try to, if not expertly, respond to some of the contentions I have read in the thread here. To try to keep it concise and readable I will paraphrase some general statements I read and respond to the best of my ability …
1) Christians would be hypocrites if they refuse to participate in a same sex wedding, but then turn around and get mad if they are “discriminated” against.
Response: I don’t disagree. I think individuals/groups should be allowed to exercise their consciences and have freedom of association(which also implies freedom to NOT associate). I am not for a lifestyle of “bubble” Christianity where we avoid all non-Christians at all times. I am for the freedom for an individual Christian to say, “for me, here I draw the line”. And this cuts the other way.
Where I logically disagree is with the assertion that not participating in a wedding equates to not being served simple BECAUSE of gender/orientation/race/religion. While this is possibly absurdly extreme…I would gladly serve a white power supremist my general “goods”, but I wouldn’t come along to a cross burning, or, knowingly prepare my products for the express purpose of being used in that activity.
For many people that balk at this “comparison”, I would contend that this is an important point. In many cases in our culture today we have “sanitized” certain sins while remaining firm against others. And sadly, it seems, the deciding factor between what willingly we accept is not the Word, but the world. It is “easy” to speak against racism because our culture does so(which is a good thing), but it is difficult to speak against sexual sin because our culture celebrates it.
2) Evangelicals/conservatives/Calvinists/etc are making homosexuality the one sin they make a big deal about which is detrimental to the cause of the Gospel as a whole.
Response: While it is completely fair to point out a lack of honest accountability about a whole host of other sins(cheating, lying, gossip, etc), there is a big difference. Namely, no one is “celebrating” these particular sins. And, in general, if someone was confronted with this sin, they don’t try to pretend or advocate that their (lying, cheating, etc) are actually GOOD things. Sexual sin(in all forms) is a destructive force in society.
I think the guilt of the Church actually traces back to not making more noise in opposition to the “no fault” divorce movement a generation ago. The thinking was let the world do what the world wants, it’s not our business. Sadly, it is now our business. Nearly half of all kids are growing up in single parent homes. Divorce(and the resulting damage) is rampant. Commitment and fidelity are becoming antiquated concepts. Churches are full of divorce “causers” and divorce “victims”.
3) Paul’s advocation to avoid immoral practices was addressing idol worship and pagan religious practices. We are talking about a wedding, which is about love.
Response: While it is absolutely true that Paul was specifically addressing idol worship and pagan ceremonies….what is a wedding/marriage then? I would contend, based on a high view of the purpose, design, and Gospel truth of marriage, that a marriage is a Holy Sacrament and Religious Ceremony. And it is either a reflection of God, or it is a reflection of something that is NOT God(an idol) Therefore, in my view and interpretation of scripture I feel strongly that a “ceremony” that is meant to solemnize and call something “good” is a direct rejection of God and a worship of something completely different.
In addition, I am sure you might be wondering how I would respond to a marriage of a Muslim couple. There is a very essential difference. Even in their false beliefs they are entering into a relationship that is STILL reflective of God’s purpose and design. Their marriage is still a visual representation of God’s purpose for marriage. And, they, AS A COUPLE, are capable of being redeemed as not just individuals, BUT also as a couple. The Muslim couple may not start off as Christians(clearly), but, if they became Christians their marriage would still be intact and take on a richer meaning. For the same sex couple, their marriage would never have that potential. They obviously can individually come to the Cross, but their marriage cannot come to the cross.
Concerning divorce and remarriage…..Each situation obviously is case by case. Speaking for myself, outside of clearly outlined and known biblical grounds for divorce I would not conduct a wedding ceremony. For the baker, if they know the details of what is going on there are a few important factors to measure.
1) Are they even Christian—if not, their divorce doesn’t “mean” anything spiritually, and, in the course of this new marriage there is the hope of redemption and Christ centeredness.
2) If they are a Christian, yet formerly divorced I think you can defer to their local Church leadership. Of course there are plenty of churches who just rubber stamp anything, but if the Pastor/elders are satisfied that this is a God honoring marriage(since there is the possibility of divorce/remarriage biblically I would contend) then you can rest easy.
3) Claimed Christianity, but clearly, the divorce/remarriage is not biblical. I just recently had to deal with this. Women in my church kicked out her 2nd husband and had her new boyfriend move in. New boyfriend moved in by leaving his wife who was currently in the middle of chemo. Because she had “changed”….This is a completely true story. I sat down with her(since she was a member and claimed to be a Christian) and was gentle and clear. I said, this is not ok, you are both welcome to attend our church and come to our events. But regardless of what happens with both of your current marriages we will never acknowledge this new relationship as God honoring and acceptable. We will not ever host a wedding for you two at this church, nor can you be an active(voting) member as long as this relationship continues.
Did they come back? Nope. But beyond just dealing with them I was worried about both of their multiple kids. Knowing the families somewhat I knew that their kids were a mess. Their lives were marked by this kind of selfish and unhealthy behavior by adults in their lives. No matter what their parents ended up doing I wanted them to know that at least one person was willing to say, “This is not ok”. For too long no one had ever spoken up for truth or these kids(constantly shuttled from relationship to relationship in their young lives).
So, I guess, if you, as a baker, knew these sorts of details, I would defend you saying, “I cannot in good conscience participate”
These scenarios cover pretty much all cases of divorce/remarriage(in my opinion). Either they are Christians who have the affirmation of their Church for marriage, or, they aren’t Christian at all so the same concerns do not necessarily apply. Or, they are Christians who are running from Godly and Biblical conviction and discipline.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
It is no small wonder why Jesus had his biggest problems with religious, especially professionals, people. It seems like the “sinners” were the only ones who listened to him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Adam Borsay:
On the cross burning – gay marriage comparison, there is no equivalence. The difference isn’t that one is currently culturally condemned and the other is gaining approval, it’s that one is an act of terror associated with violence and murder and the other is a celebration commitment between two consenting adults that doesn’t involve violence or any other crime against third parties. The song “One of These Things is Not Like the Other” should be running through your head right now.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
I’ve seen far more controversy with Carter than Merritt – – at least on Twitter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Adam Borsay wrote:
I’m not sure if others made a similar argument to mine, but given that I made similar comments above, I’ll offer a response.
First, my point wasn’t that “a wedding is about love” (which I never actually said). My point is that using Pauline admonitions against idol worship to advocate that Christians shouldn’t participate in a gay wedding is extremely poor exegesis and, contrary to your claim, exhibits a very *low* view of Scripture. (Individuals with a deep respect and love for God’s word do not misapply portions of it to further their own exegetical goals).
Second, you create a red herring when you begin to argue about the spiritual imagery of the institution of marriage. This is very tricky ground and a theologian places himself on tricky ground when he or she begins to draw fast and sharp theological distinctions from metaphorical imagery.
Third, you undermine your own gay-marriage-is-akin-to-idolatry argument when you admit that you feel differently about Muslim marriage. Muslims do not affirm the deity of Christ, and yet you would consider participation in their marriage more theologically acceptable than participation in a gay wedding? Are you then not appearing to “affirm” the non-deity of Christ? (And so here you begin to see the numerous difficulties in considering participation in a wedding to necessarily be a religious/worship experience).
Fourth (and this is closely related to the third point): your argument that an Islamic marriage is different from a gay marriage is predicated too heavily on the concept of gendered sexuality. Forgive my language, but you are essentially asserting that the most important distinction between two marriages, when considering whether or not to be involved in any way, is whether or not the couple both have the same genitalia. I would argue that there are a number of other ways for a marriage to be dishonoring to God (unkindness, lying/deceit, adultery, abuse, etc.), all of which have nothing to do with one’s sex.
Fifth, I would reiterate a point from one of my posts above: what is your heart’s desire in all of this argumentation, and in this issue in general? What do you really want? What do you think Jesus will say to me on judgement day for going to my relative’s gay wedding? What do you think Jesus will say to you on judgement day as you and he review your actions and especially your heart motives regarding gay marriage?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Adam Borsay:
This wall of words just reminds me of why I bailed on evangelical Christianity. So many words, so little Jesus.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I think it’s ok to bail on everything. In fact, I think that’s what Jesus told us to do. Bail on all of it… except Him. Then you’re a “Christian.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Steven Troy:
So are we to believe that Jesus took these (good?) “sinners” who listened to him and turned them into (bad?) “religious people” who followed him? And some of them turned out to be religious professionals, for crying out loud, before he was through with them. As ill as everybody gets with some religious professionals, that is too broad a statement.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Godith wrote:
Neither would I. But are you really trying to compare a gay wedding to an Aryan Nation celebration? Do you feel that this is a credible and fair comparison to make?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mr.H:no, I am giving an example of something I find repugnant.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Godith:
Thanks for clarifying. I was a bit confused as to your argument. I appreciate the response!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Nancy,
I’m not sure I’m following you but I’ll try to respond.
I’m merely making an observation. Jesus most scathing words were for the religious professionals of his day. None of these had been converted. Of course Jesus did not exclude all of them and I’m sure some listened to him. But it is just an observable fact that he rebuked them sharply.
There are parallels with SOME religious professionals today. Yes, I would be speaking too broadly to include ALL.
No offense intended.
Peace,
Steve
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
How is it that people want to believe what Jesus said about divorce and remarriage and do not want to believe what he said about “for this cause” about male and female as regards marriage. Or conversely accept “for this cause” and overlook the issue of divorce and remarriage. Especially since he said all of it in the same discussion. Either take the whole argument he was making or leave the whole statement, but this other is weird.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Steven Troy:
Thanks for the explanation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Good point HUG.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
It’s certainly your right to believe that. However, a business owner trying to enforce that perceived “right” may find him/herself in a bit of trouble.
https://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
This is why we have (among other things) the Civil Rights Act of 1964, because if left to themselves, some people would not serve women, people with disabilities, minorities or people of other religious beliefs. Some states have expanded on the Act by including GLBT persons in their own state Civil Rights Acts, which is where we end up with the issues involving cake bakers and florists.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ burntnorton:
To Daisy: The baker usually delivers the cake to the reception and often at least partially assembles it on site. At that point, they might 'discover' the genders of the wedding participants. What do they do Take the cake and leave? or start a screaming fit:: NOBODY TOLD ME ! WAWAWAWAWAAAAAAA!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
Nirele, many of these so called christians should not serve a woman out alone. Where is her husband, father, brother, son that is supposed to ‘protect’ her. Is she allowed to conduct commercial transactions on her own?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I could be wrong about this (those with legal knowledge please correct me), but even in states that don’t specify LGBT persons, the burden of proof may rest on the business owner claiming “freedom of conscience.” They’re going to have to prove a religious conviction and not just a preference.
Years ago (this case is buried somewhere in a tome supporting home education. My church used it to enforce their no-TV rule) a family lost the right to home school because they had a TV. They claimed they were trying to shield their children from negative, “worldly” influences. But a skillful lawyer blew that right out the window by verifying that they owned a TV which invited those very influences right into their living room. A court is going to look at many factors to determine if, indeed, a business owner has a truly compelling religious interest. That’s just my opinion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mr.H:
So what is your definition of idolatry? I have heard so many sermons about idolatry not being limited to some carved image somewhere but also being whatever a person values more than he values the one
god. Then the sermon would go on about people deciding for themselves what is right or wrong as one form of worshipping the self, as a variant of idolatry. If that is correct, then Paul’s comments about idolatry must be understood in a somewhat different manner than if one believes that idolatry is limited to the specific (or similar) religions that Paul was coping with in his day. And the way that arguments go on various things these days, I think this is a valid issue to be considered and decided.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Been there:
They “might.”
First, there are limitations to the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 written within the statute. On the employment realm, for example, I believe it applies to businesses that employ 25 or more people. Our business is not subject to that.
Second, there are religious exceptions to the Federal Civil Rights Act. That’s why the Supreme Court and other courts routinely uphold the rights of churches and religious schools when they discriminate and hire only people in their faith.
Third, and most importantly, the Federal Civil Rights Act does not override the First Amendment which says that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”
I am not an expert in these areas but it seems to me that this situation and many others that we could come up would show why religious conscience should be protected, even by those whom we may not agree with.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Okay time to weigh in!!!!!
First I think Joe Carter wants Jonathan Merritt to be like Michael Servetus. Can’t you feel the bonfire they are building in Louisville? I can feel it from Washington, D.C.!!!
Second this crowd takes anyone they disagree with and do one of 2 things. They either proclaim him to be an open theist OR they call him a universalist. It’s a tactic and a method that they do to tar and feather people. I wanted to comment on the TGC article and noticed how Joe closed the comments.
What a wus…I guess I won’t bake a cake for his birthday if I am asked!! In my book going to a Hyper-Cal conference is as questionable as going to a strip club. However, the people in the strip club are more down to earth and honest.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
Mirele:
See my response to Been there.
Blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years and treated inhumanely. Even after the Civil War and the passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, the South adopted laws that were horrible. Blacks were often denied public accomodations everywhere.
In this case, we have probably thousands of bakeries that can cater to this so-called gay wedding. The situations are hardly comparable.
But, again, see my statement about the religious exception to the Civil Rights Act and the First Amendment.
In the end, the courts may not support the baker. We will all be poorer if that happens.
The couple can get a cake at bunches of places.
We would be better off as a society if we let people be free, even if they make choices we don’t agree with.
I can see Jesus questioning these bakers and challenging their decision.
I cannot see Jesus encouraging the Roman authorities to throw them in jail for sincerely held religious convictions.
Sometimes people’s convictions are not our own. I believe a free society allows for that and is best. I don’t want to have the power to punish people for their religious choices. And I don’t want others to have that either.
Do you really want to see someone punished just because they don’t want to bake a cake for a gay wedding?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mirele:
You are right about the proof thing.
I don’t want a religious conscience claim to be a sham.
It should be real and provable.
But courts are pretty deferential in that regard, unless it is patently ridiculous.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
Ok, you have just stepped on my last nerve, so the short answer is: YES.
My explanation: I believe GLBT persons have the same civil rights (and responsibilities) as are held by straight, asexual, etc., persons. I am tired, very, very tired of Christian exceptionalism that seeks to get out of basic common decency towards other human beings.
And since my last nerve regarding Christianity has been stomped on over and over again this past week by believers trying to justify their hatred and homophobia, let me take this opportunity to reiterate: I’m gone. Out of here. You lost me. To quote Han Solo: “See you in h*ll.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@Mr H
Thanks for the thoughtful reply;
1) I am sorry if I implied you were implying that its all about love. I was conflating the statement you made with what I commonly hear asserted in these discussions. I guess I would just have to disagree with your view on misapplication of Paul’s admonitions. Clearly we aren’t being invited to a lot of “Baal” parties these days, but the framework, I would contend is the same. But if we disagree on the sacramental meaning of marriage, then we of course will be at an impasse. And that’s ok. Your view on marriage isn’t a deal breaker for me. I would contend with you, but I am not super concerned if you never agree.
2) Related to the first point, I don’t agree at all about the “tricky ground” relating to the spiritual imagery of marriage. Since the earliest days of the church marriage has been a powerful symbol, and the Christian marriage is supposed to be a reflection(albeit hazy one) of the Gospel and Christ’s love for the Church. I have trouble seeing marriage as NOT a reflection of that.
3) I guess I am not sure where you are coming from. Do you not think gendered sexuality is at least a part of the design and context of marriage? If you don’t think so, I am not sure where we can find common ground. It is not the end all and be all, but it is a non-negotiable. For example, not beating my wife isn’t the ONLY important thing about how a marriage should be, but my beating my wife is a breaking of what marriage is supposed to be. So even if I had a bunch of other “marriage” points, beating my wife invalidates it. Therefore, I could have a bunch of the outward signs of a marriage, but, it is invalidated (scripturally, spiritually) by it being of a same sex couple.
The reason I would contend there is a difference between a Muslim marriage and a same sex marriage is that they, as a male and female, can by their union be a reflection of God’s design and purpose in marriage, AND, they as a couple are a redeemable institution. This does not mean I would officiate their wedding, but I would not withhold my “baking” from their wedding.
4) My hearts desire is twofold;
1) I think it is valuable to have “in-house” discussions and debates about weighty and contentious matters. Especially in areas where one or the other individual could be in error. It is good for us to think rightly about God and God’s word. Being challenged to continually reevaluate what we think we know is of great benefit. As I said earlier, good theology doesn’t save someone, but bad theology can be damaging. So, if I think a Christian brother or sister is in error, I would love to be able to have an open discussion to discuss it with them
2) Not everyone has the same conviction level on secondary issues. And that is ok. But this debate(not necessarily here, but nationally) has seemed to taken an approach of shaming those who feel convinced by scripture that they can’t in good conscience participate. I rarely see a biblical argument for why they should go against their conscience. But I do see a lot of name calling and ad hominem attacks. If you, in good conscience, feel you could and should go to a same sex wedding, I would love to discuss it with you, but, in the end, I don’t think you turn in your “Christian card” if we don’t ever see eye to eye. But on this topic I sense a lot of faithful Christians who are struggling with what to do are being coerced into behaving opposed to their convictions for fear of criticism and being called names. Which is frustrating, because I am convinced there is a reasonable, biblically, and consistent, reason for them to maintain that conviction.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I actually used to photograph weddings. Got out of it because I could not afford the video equipment and could not compete with those that offered both still and video.
A few observations:
1- In order of involvement from a participant’s view: a-The one who is officiating.2- Caterer 3-Photographer 4-Florist 5-Baker In actuality, the florist and the baker usually don’t see the wedding couple after they book the event and the final choices are made. Hence, florists and bakers deliver before any of the wedding guests or wedding party arrive. Why is it then that with the exception of one photographer the vast majority of Christians who are complaining are bakers and florists? No caterers seem to have questioned whose wedding they are hosting.
2-When one opens a public access business, one has to abide by the rules. If you have a storefront or advertise then expect that you will have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Don’t want to deal with gay weddings? Don’t offer wedding cakes. you might also considering contracting with a few churches to be their “preferred bakers” and only get your wedding cake business from them.
3-I am sick of Christians whining about their consciences when it comes to gay weddings. More than likely, they chose your business to get their cake/flowers/photos, because you have a good product and have treated the with respect. Chances are they may not know that you are Christians. Unless you make a special point of mentioning your belief to every customer, you could very well know more about them than they know about you.
4-Somewhere we have gotten the idea that a business transaction gives tacit or explicit approval. It does not. Simply put, it is a transaction. Payment is exchanged for goods, we may not like everyone with whom we do business.
If you believe in the story of Daniel, don’t forget that he violated the King’s orders and was willing to pay the price. If you’re not willing to pay the price, don’t try to change the rules.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Agreed! I am sick of people using Christianity to get out of being decent people.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
I know, mirele. The fight for equal rights has been a recurring theme in this country. Religion has been used to justify all sorts of atrocities.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Oh bleep the bleep off with your ‘this is superior man way of thinking’ junk. It’s insulting and asinine.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I think it is up to the persons involved. If you chose to not perform a service for a specific person, be willing to pay the price for it. I respect the bakers. I would respect a nurse refusing to participate in an abortion. People, respect believers that choose to follow through on their convictions…..as long as they are willing to pay the price and have a good attitude – one of sincere convition and not animosity. I think some of these Christians deserve respect. There is always a price to pay for being a believer. We should be willing to pay that price in some circumstances. It says in the NT “to his own master he stands or falls…let each person be fully convinced in their own mind.” We will never have an impact on our culture if we fold where it is convenient. The gay couple probably had dozens of bakers to choose from.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort:
Mirele, don’t let the @$$h01es get you down. I think of all of this as the raging of a dying animal. They won’t go easily or quietly, but they will die.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
As a token person from a certain minority group that’s been under discussion in this thread, I would like to bring attention to a legislative peculiarity of this matter of freedom to discriminate that I suspect is being overlooked.
Some are making a big deal out of the fact that a baker was willing to bake all sorts of things for a gay person, while being unwilling only to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. In this paradigm, anti-discrimination laws are viewed as suspect because it is believed that the baker should have the right to discriminate in wedding cake production based on the gender pairings of the couples purchasing cakes. The problem with applying this view to the legislative arena is that it ignores the much wider impact of discrimination-positive legislation (like the aborted attempts at “religious freedom” bills in a few states recently).
On an individual level, some Christians claim that they only want legal protection for discriminating against gay weddings. That isn’t what is going on at the legislative level, however. The consequences of pro-discrimination bills (or in other cases, a lack of anti-discrimination bills) are that not only can bakers refuse to make cakes for LGBT couples, but also that landlords can refuse to rent to LGBT couples – or individual LGBT people, for that matter. Non-church and non-religious organization employers can refuse to hire LGBT people – again, partnered or not.
Now, you may argue that very few service providers, landlords, and employers will discriminate against LGBT people, and after all, can’t LGBT people just go find someone else who will serve them? All I ask is that you look at the violent and pervasive backlash that the evangelical community threw on World Vision earlier this week, and tell me with a straight face (no pun intended) that incidents of anti-gay discrimination will be rare.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Adam Borsay wrote:
Technically speaking, I find nothing in scripture that implies two people must be joined together by a minister or pastor. It seems they agreed to be married. Civil laws today require marriage certificates to prove the relationship is legal for the sake of tax benefits and possible inheritance disputes, but there are numerous persons certified to perform the ceremony. Some states even allow family and/or friends to officiate.
So for a pastor to refuse to marry a couple doesn’t prohibit the marriage from taking place.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Adam Borsay wrote:
Actually, the “no fault” divorce is much older than a generation ago. Moses made a concession when men were putting their wives out for every cause. The concession he made was that they must present their wives with a certificate of divorce proving the dissolution of the relationship so the woman wouldn’t be guilty of adultery upon marrying again. It’s my opinion that the woman at the well was the victim of such practices likely having been “discarded” 4-5 times.
Granted it was a concession based on a culture of hard-hearts, but if we don’t see that today, we’re burying our heads in the sand. A certificate proving divorce was the requirement just as it is today. God Himself issued such a certificate to His adulterous people.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Victorious:
So what are you saying? That it is OK because Moses did it?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Are you asking about divorce or the certificate of divorce specifically? And what do you mean by “OK?” If you mean do I approve of divorce, the answer is of course! So did Moses, Jesus, and Paul. Do I like the fact that divorce happens? No, of course not. But it does… just read scripture and you’ll find divorce, multiple marriages, adultery, a system of concubines, slavery, etc. None of those unfortunate practices are God’s will, but because of the weakness of the flesh and hardness of hearts, they happened throughout history and are still happening today.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
I don’t believe anti-gay discrimination will be rare.
Two bakeries that gained attention for refusing to make cakes for gay weddings “were quite willing to provide baked goods for celebrations of divorces, unmarried parents, stem-cell research, non-kosher barbecues and pagan solstice parties.” http://tinyurl.com/o9sf7er
I respect Christians with a genuine conviction, but I’m afraid this has simply become a cause du jour for some.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Victorious:
Your topic sentence in your first paragraph was about no fault divorce. That was my question.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
Hi Nancy,
Scripture must be understood and interpreted in its original context (social, cultural, spiritual, textual). This is the foundation for good exegesis.
My point is that to take passages of Scripture which were written by Paul to 1st century Christians about whether or not to partake of meat offered to idols, and then to try and directly apply them to the question of whether or not modern Christians should go to (or provide a service for) a gay wedding, is exegetically unsound.
I, too, have heard many sermons that simplify the concept of idolatry and then try to apply it to the average Christian’s life by asking, “So…what is your idol?” This is not a very good interpretation and application of Scriptures pertaining to idolatry, because idolatry, according to Scripture, is the acknowledgement and worship of deities other than the Lord.
In other words, if someone is greedy, they are not literally worshipping some sort of currency deity. They are simply being greedy (which is a sin in and of itself). If someone is being controlled by their sexual desires, they are lustful and they lack self-control; they don’t literally worship some sort of sex deity.
There is a reason that the first commandment is the first commandment. In the world of ancient Israel, idolatry was a very real threat to the relationship between God and his people. It is disrespectful and irresponsible to God and to his word to take the first commandment (and all Scriptural references to it, including Pauline passages) and misapply it to a completely different issue.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Oh, thanks for clarifying that. Do I believe in “no fault” divorce? That’s difficult to answer for me. But first let’s agree that it’s not a recent law. It’s been around since Moses was confronted with the problem of men “putting away their wives” for any reason.
Years ago, the primary reason allowed for divorce was adultery. However, adultery is very difficult to prove as normally there are no witnesses to the sexual immorality. It caused all kinds of problems as you can imagine and resulted in some serious repercussions to the accuser and ruined reputation of the accused – whether true or not. But many were willing to suffer those consequences in an effort to divorce. Pretty sure some states like Florida now require mediation prior to granting a divorce to eliminate the possibility of impulsive actions.
Persons divorce for a number of reasons and without a reasonable way to separate, the conditions in the home can deteriorate drastically to the detriment of both husband, wife, and most of all the children. I see divorce more amicable without both or either party having to drag out the process to prove how cruel or immoral the other is.
Either people are granted a legal divorce or they will live in permanent adultery or continue to live in a hostile environment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Well said, Mr. H!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mr.H:
So true Mr. H. And when I think of the money that has been made off of books that have turned every sin into some kind of idol worship problem (shaking head).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I grew up fundie Baptist, so I got an A+ in legalism, and I know my way around the bible. I’m currently what they call a “hopefull agnostic.” I’ve heard all the arguments. I’m also something of a pragmatist at heart; it’s just part of my personality according to Myers-Briggs 🙂
So I’m thinking about this…
If I am a Christian of a certain persuasion, trying to decide what career to enter, how do I choose a life path that aligns with, or at least does not conflict with, my beliefs?
I could become a pharmacist, but what if I had to fill a birth control prescription? Nope, out of the question.
Okay, I could be an accountant. But what if an imam wanted to pay me for my services? No, can’t do that.
Well, I could be a grocery store manager. Except, I might have to sell beer and wine. Well, that’s out of the question.
Maybe I could be a teacher. But if the school district insisted I teach evolution, and it believe in young earth creationism, well that’s a deal breaker right there.
Maybe I could just be a computer tech, and avoid as much human contact and sinful behavior as possible. That should be safe, right? But what if I find something on a customer’s hard drive that offends me?
I could go on and on, but the point is, just like the Deebs have been asking, where do you draw the line? At some point, you may as well join a convent or monestary if you can’t handle being in the world and dealing with people who don’t believe the same things you believe. Where do you draw the line, indeed? Will you be a witness or a hermit?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is completely off topic, but I just had to share this ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5i3F0YnkP0
I laughed until I peed, then I laughed about that. 😀
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
Thanks for that perspective, Josh.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
Josh,
Thank you very much for coming by and posting.
I have had some difficult health issues to manage today and yesterday, so I hope to say more once I feel better.
Just wanted to acknowledge your point of view, and that a close relative of mine died of AIDS – he grew up in a world that could not accept his lifestyle choices, and I will always wonder if he felt better about himself, he would not have become the sex addict that he was. Not to say that ALL people who make these choices become sex addicts, just spending time up front with someone, for me, has been a life-changing event.
I hope and pray that you can feel accepted and loved by Christians more and more. If you were in the room with my husband and I now we would each give you a big hug.
Blessings,
Marie
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
Josh I want to thank you for your comment. I appreciate and agree with so much of what you have said. The consequence of these discrimination bills is way beyond the bakery.
1. Can a landlord refuse rent to a gay couple?
2. Can a Christian auto garage refuse service to a gay person?
3. Can a Christian who owns a gym refuse to sell a membership to a gay couple?
On and on it goes…..the one thing you need to remember and many people don’t like to think about this is that many evangelicals are notorious for discrimination. It’s in their blood, their DNA. For example….look at how the Southern Baptists were founded. The entire SBC was founded on the premise that African-American slavery was Biblical and they severed from the Baptists in the north prior to the American Civil War.
So this is an issue, and many evangelicals don’t see this as discrimination which is sad. Many evangelicals create their own enemies, and beat the wounded. I for one think many evangelicals have permanently forfeited their right to talk about sexual sin or homosexuality when at the same time they are covering up child sexual abuse. I would challenge you to spend a few minutes and read the details in the lawsuit below and you will wonder why does Sovereign Grace or any other evangelical organization have a right to discuss homosexuality when they are engaging in illegal behavior and cover up
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/storage/documents/second%20amended%20sgm%20lawsuit.pdf
I went through burn out and a 6 year faith crisis that was hell. The evangelicalism I knew was the source of much of the problems. In the process of being in secular humanism I attended the largest atheist rally in the US – the Reason Rally in the Washington, D.C. area. I decided to move back to the Christian faith but I am on the edges. I stil but heads, and look at things from a different perspective.
You’re perspective is valuable and indeed a gift to everyone here. I hope you’ll stick around and participate and engage in discussions. There is a lot we can learn from each other and that only happens if we discuss and get to know each other and see where each person is coming from. So I hope I’ll see you engaging and commenting here at TWW and I-Monk.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
If you guys are familiar with the musical West Side Story you’ll love this!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtPb8g8Jl6I
It’s called Web Side Story!! 😉
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LOL!!!!! Okay I’ll stop with this College Humor Parody
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MM3KkF5urY
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Off-topic, but might I enter a plea on behalf of the intellectual sub-culture within Christendom?
By which I mean, those of us whose dominant characteristic is our intellect. (We may, or may not, have a stronger intellect than the next person; but it’s the strongest thing we have.) I don’t know Adam beyond his comments here, but on that limited evidence, I’d guess he too would consider himself intellectual.
For us, thoughts – usually expressed in words – are not a replacement for Jesus in us; they are Jesus in us. Compare Mark’s gospel with John’s, for instance – or Matthew’s, for that matter. It’s how we relate.
Of course you can have lots of words without Jesus; but then, you can have lots of anything without Jesus. At the other extreme, I read a lot of output from (small c) charismatic Christians especially and it’s tempting to think, so much sobbing and emotion, so little Jesus. (Tempting, but in most cases it would be wrong.) Jesus wept, laughed, got angry, planned, thought, taught and much else. He perfectly represents everything the Father is, but no one of us alone perfectly represents all that he is.
TWW deals with complex and divisive topics, of course. The thing about those topics is that they make us be what we are, only more so. Emotional people get more emotional and thoughtful people get more thoughtful. We need both, and more besides.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well said, Nick.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Eagle: Cleverly done!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In other news, a biiiiiiiiig test of Liverpool’s title credentials this afternoon. Our rivals have all dropped points so far this weekend, which of course gives us an opportunity to steal a march on them. But it’s a tough game against a strong Spurs side, and in league fitba’ you often see title-chasers failing to capitalise on slip-ups around them. (Celtic are past masters at dropping points whenever Rangers do.)
But here’s the heady mathematics as they currently stand: Were we to win our remaining seven games, we would be champions regardless of other results. In reality, of course, that’s all stuff and hypothetical nonsense – we’re highly unlikely to win all of them and all of the top three will likely drop some points between now and the end of the season. It remains an interesting race!
I hope this is helpful.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
There is a misunderstanding extant about the words of Jesus as it relates to divorce. The Mosaic law allowed for divorce of a wife (husbands only had power to get a divorce) under two different standards. One was being found to be impure, either not a virgin at the time of marriage or committing adultery after marriage. The other was a “divorce for any reason”, by merely giving the woman the boot from the household. To do the latter without giving the woman a certificate of divorce was to condemn her as having been divorced under the first standard, which would make her a pariah for having been impure or having committed adultery. Jesus taught against the second form very strongly as causing a woman to be “impure or in adultery”, even though she was not.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Eagle:
Another rocking post!! Thank you everyone for being here! It helps me feel better in the midst of a rough week, healthwise.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
The choice to be a public accommodation — to put your business in front of the public by a storefront, advertising, signage, etc., — is, in effect a commitment to serve all who come without regard to race, sex, gender, nationality, disability, etc., etc. One can limit what services they offer to the public, but any service provided must be provided on an equal basis to all, with the exception of possible discount like a senior citizen discount, police discount, or clergy discount — which must be offered to all in the class if a discount applies to some in that class.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have been discussing this issue strictly from a religious (not Christian) and market freedom issue.
I am not looking at it through WWJD glasses. (Exception for whether Jesus would want the Romans to throw bakers in jail for refusing to bake cakes for the right people!)
I am not arguing for or against Christian freedom. I am not arguing about any particular religion.
I believe that leaving World Vision out of this discussion, and not limiting the discussion to “Christians” makes for a healthier discussion with a lot less acrimony.
I have followed, somewhat, the bills that have been introduced into various state legislatures about the protection of religious rights. I believe that most of those bills have been pulled by supporters after receiving legal counsel that state law already protects that which those bills are seeking to protect, and that introducing a new law would only create confusion.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
Thanks for the input. I really appreciate how you say things, given my long history of lawyers in the family. That said, I am still not sure I understand one level of meaning you might be expressing–or not. Are you saying that Jesus said that when it comes to divorce anything goes as long as you write it down on paper?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
No. I do not think so. But he was saying that it is detestable to divorce “for any reason (aka for no reason)” without providing the paper, because it would cause the woman to be shamed as impure or adulterous. Jesus condemned the unnecessary harm that such a divorce would cause, for want of a paper. He recognized why the divorce was in the Mosaic law — the hardness of men’s hearts — and was obviously not endorsing the hardness of men’s hearts.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Someone asked above whether “Christians” (again, it would be better to say “any religious people”) can refuse to rent to gay people.
It probably depends. A large commercial realty company with thousands of units might come under the scope of some laws in some states. An elderly couple with a garage apartment could probably refuse.
Of course, hypotheticals like these are interesting in the abstract. But in the real world, they often don’t play out so easily.
How is one to know that the renters are gay? 2 or more men and women rent apartments all the time. I can’t imagine a landlord asking “are you going to be having sex in this apartment?”
The same persons asked if religious institutions could refuse to hire people because they are gay. The answer to that is clearly “yes.”
One way to look at protective legislation in a society is to see its remedial purpose. I mentioned the comparison between the history of blacks and homosexuals.
I could be wrong but I have never seen studies or reports suggesting that over the decades homosexuals lived in substandard housing or were homeless on a greater basis than than the general population.
I don’t believe today that there is a housing crisis in the gay community.
If I am wrong, I would be interested to see that information.
The same is true of employment. I am not aware of statistics showing that homosexuals have high unemployment rates. In fact, by personal observation and impression, my belief is that homosexuals often do better economically than the median household. Homosexuals are present in large numbers in some of the largest and most expensive cities in the U.S., and they seem to thrive there. LA, San Fran, NYC, Miami, Houston etc,, all have large and well off homosexual populations.
I would propose that any remedial legislation should address real problems. Not perceived, imaginary or philosophical/debate type problems.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Here on this side of the pond, the three Triangle (from our area) basketball teams that made it to the NCAA tournament (UNC, Duke and NC State) didn't do so great this year.
Basketball season, unfortunately, has ended early for us. 🙁
But… there's always next year! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
Thanks. Sorry to bother you so much.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ lemonaidfizz:
We all have our own analogies, of course, in the effort to explain things, but I think I have one that works for me in this instance.
Allergies.
It looks really weird that one christian will have issues of conscience about, let us say situation A, while the christian next door has no problem with A. But the christian next door cannot or will not deal with B, and the guy with the A problem is good with B. It looks like some inconsistency within the whole area of whatever reasoning it is that christians do that some other folks do not.
But then there is the idea of allergies. People can have areas of weakness (thing temptation) in their lives and they have to stay half away from, let us say alcohol. Well, we understand that and just say “bless ’em” and go on. So how do we know what goes on in some person’s inner self when it comes to something in the greater culture that seems to be more than they can or will deal with?
For example, there were certain problems which one or both of my parents had (nobody’s business but mine) and those areas are places where I know that my thinking and feeling are not the same as someone who did not have exactly those things to deal with in the past. I can intellectually think this or that about something, for example, but even thinking about it causes such a roar of personal pain that I just have to give it up and move on and let somebody else just be–without my interference.
So if somebody can’t deal with this or that, maybe it is not some sort of religious malfunction or maybe it is not some sort of mental illness or maybe it is not some sort of hard heartedness or lack of intellectual understanding. Maybe it is something that kicks them in some old scar and the pain is too much to bear.
I am saying this, because sometimes people say they can’t stand christianity because they can’t stand christians but somehow they still might find something
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
They are discriminated against in regards to housing. http://tinyurl.com/kmkpfmw
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
continues
I don’t know how that printed when it did.
…but still they might find something more or less decent to say about Jesus. Let me suggest, that some of that anger might be misplaced. Surely if the “I left christianity because” crowd expects understanding from the christianity they left, they must be willing to require the same level of understanding from themselves, seeing that they deem it a virtue. Perhaps even a “right.” Let’s even the field here a little.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Thank you for that. Also, with regard to the homelessness question, see this article: http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/americas-shame-40-of-homeless-youth-are-lgbt-kids/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
That’s OK. I like being asked my opinion. As one who appears occasionally in court and often find myself on the short end of the stick, it is nice to be asked what I think about a situation involving Mosaic law. BTW, I like the fact that mosaic means a complex picture made from little pieces and Mosaic Law is also a complex picture made from little bits and pieces, some of which seem difficult to see in relationship to the big picture.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
How about that. So I may occasionally ask your opinion in that area in the future as it may be appropriate. I have no way to know, of course, whether or not you are correct, but I do think you explain things really well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
So, let me get this straight. You think that non-Christians, ex-Christians, disaffected Christians, etc., don’t have a right to say something here? I really, really hope I’m misunderstanding this.
As for World Vision, it’s absolutely part of the discussion because it showed the depths that some Christians would go to–to the point of taking food out of children’s mouths–to hit back at LGBT persons. That is a *very bad* witness of Jesus, in my post-churched opinion.
From someone who lived in a state that tried to introduce one of these laws: While the law here does not protect LGBT persons, passing SB 1062 would have given those inclined to discriminate a green light to do so. And, I might point out, this was a useful exercise in governance because the staff of our governor, Jan Brewer was busted. They were found to be working with the Center For Arizona Policy (a very right-wing “Christian” lobbying outfit) to write SB 1062. They knew what they were doing and they had every intent to give bigots the right to discriminate against LGBT persons. Thankfully the business community, the chambers of commerce, individual citizens such as myself, and let’s not forget, the NFL*, hammered some sense into Ms. Brewer and she vetoed this execrable legislation.
And let’s be clear, the purpose of the bills was LGBT discrimination. The people behind the bills had no other reason but their “religious convictions” and animus towards LGBT persons. I’m really, really tired of people failing to own their convictions and instead try to weasel around. If you want to discriminate against LGBT people, you should be out and proud about it and be ready to give an answer as to why you feel it’s necessary to have this kind of discrimination. However, I suspect that this open bigotry would cause customers to take their business elsewhere.
* The NFL moved the 1992 Super Bowl from Tempe, AZ to Pasadena, CA after the state legislature repealed enabling legislation for a Martin Luther King holiday. So there was precedent to move the 2015 Super Bowl from Glendale.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
I hear ya. Perhaps it would be encouraging to know that this is the case for much of ancient Near Eastern law. We are still trying to figure out the organizational principles governing Mesopotamian and Anatolian law collections. In some cases, it is beginning to look like some law codes were actually organized phonetically, rather than topically, which threw many scholars off for a long time. We were scratching our heads looking for some sort of common thematic element, when in fact the original compiler was simply grouping laws together based on words that sound alike!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Help! I totally misunderstood what Anonymous was saying! Can someone edit out the first paragraph and response?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
TWW INTERNATIONAL/U.S. SPORTS BREAK!!! 🙂
Nick, I was far too busy on my day off yesterday obsessively following the full card of races at the Dubai World Cup (horse racing) to update myself on today’s Premier League action (and of course today is the first day of our work week here – sadly have missed the F1 Grand Prix in Malaysia).
Was a Godolphin sweep of the big final race itself (Godolphin being the racing stable of Sheikh Maktoum, the ruler of Dubai) with its $6 million USD (wowsers!) prize for first place. Lots of the top U.K. and Irish-bred horses, trainers, and jocks were in attendance.
Don’t be hating on my ignoring the fitba’ in favor of, um … more, uh … personally-favored sporting events. 🙂 However: go Liverpool!
@ Deb:
I spent an inordinate amount of email time yesterday offering sympathies to some devastated, mourning Louisville Cardinals fans.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mr.H wrote:
Wow. I would have *never* thought of organizing laws phonetically. That’s a new one!
Can you imagine case law thrown together phonetically? LOL. The thought of shepardizing a case (pre-computer) makes my head spin.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
I am very sorry to hear about your pain and hurt stemming from past family issues. Brokenness in the family is one of the most tragic results of the Fall, and I am heartbroken to hear that you suffer because of it.
I do want to address your above comment. I agree with you that some Christians will have specific struggles and weaknesses and “scar tissue” that make it difficult to deal with certain issues. I believe that this was part of Paul’s conceptualization of his teaching on Christian conscience and his encouraging Christians not to cause a brother or sister to stumble.
At the same time, the “weak” brother or sister also has a responsibility to clearly communicate their specific situation to their brothers and sisters so that their brothers and sisters can know how to love them well (because we cannot read the mind and so anticipate every issue that may arise).
So, in the context of gay marriage (to bring the discussion back around to the original topic), if Joe Carter or Jonathan Merritt, for example, struggle with issues pertaining to homosexuality, it is their responsibility to be open and honest about these struggles and how it influences their thoughts, words, and actions. It is not appropriate for a Christian to lash out at brothers and sisters and/or to argue extensively about homosexuality/gay marriage/etc., without ever being open and expressing their specific struggle in that situation.
As an example: John Doe’s father and mother were killed by a drunk driver. As a result, John Doe feels very negatively about alcohol consumption. He spends a significant amount of time arguing with his fellow Christians (online, in person, etc.) about how Christians shouldn’t drink alcohol. However, he only argues based on his interpretation of Scripture and/or his views on Christian liberty, without ever mentioning his personal experience regarding his parents’ tragic deaths. In this scenario, John Doe’s brothers and sisters in Christ will be at a disadvantage in loving him well, and the entire conversation will be skewed, because at its core it is not really primarily about Scriptural interpretation or Christian liberty, but rather about a painful personal experience, which requires a very different conversational approach.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Considering that several of my old Evangelical friends refused to attend my wedding because it was in a Catholic church, I could see some people refusing to do business with Catholics if they had a choice. This could lead us down a really bad road. I don’t want to have to fill out an application divulging my religion, marital status, and personal beliefs every time I need to get the oil changed or whatever. But we could easily come to that.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just thought it would help to take a commercial break for meekness, lol.
Just wanted to mention that I am pretty torn about this issue, and this little commentary on meekness has helped.
Daisy, I sooo appreciate your perspectives. I think it’s great you are standing up for your faith. What concerns me is whether pastors could be jailed for not agreeing to marry same-sex couples. I also have felt the brunt of some bullying homosexuals in awkward situations.
On the other hand, hearing from Josh and his perspective, I would not want to belittle the pain of someone who just wants to feel equal with the rest of the world.
From http://odb.org/?tz=-05:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort:
Is your comment now edited per your request? Because I think your perspective as an Arizonan is important here!
No editing for you, Mirele FKA!!!! 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ar wrote:
I am so, so sorry. I have many great Christian friends who are Catholic. Don’t feel bad. Tomorrow I plan to write a post in which the gospel boys would declare us non-Christians. So, it is not just Catholics. It is evangelicals who do not toe an exacting line as well.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mr.H:
He does not need his brothers and sisters to love him. He needs them to listen to his reasoning, much of which. in using your example of alcohol, may have nothing to do with scripture or christian freedom or his own past experiences. (I know that is not exactly your illustration.) However, from my professional background, for example, there are lots of things to say about alcohol, for instance, that have nothing to do with anything except the human body and mind.
One of my arguments is against the very thing you are arguing for. That if a christian says something it must somehow be linked to religion or personal anguish or something and could not be understood or tolerated any other way. Well, in a pigs eye. If people want to argue from scripture, or if people want to lament their woes that is one thing. But to assume that either one is needed for a christian to have an opinion and an argument and rationale is off base.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget wrote:
Yes, unfortunately there have been many Christian leaders who have turned sub-par exegesis and sloppy application into exorbitant sums of money. Sadly, the trend only continues.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marie2 wrote:
That would be flat wrong, and I hope nobody ever pushes that. I believe that is another example of the confusion between what is private and what is public. A church is a private association based on specific religious beliefs. A church should not be forced to participate in a ceremony that opposes it’s beliefs. However, if that church opens, say, a wedding service *business* offering all the accoutrements of a wedding package for sale, they may face some issues that will have to be settled in court. But, I don’t believe the average gay person is trying to go there. They just want to be treated equally.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
nmgirl wrote:
Beyond that, why should anyone have to engage in subterfuge to get normal services? Why should a straight couple be able to enjoy wedding planning and picking out a cake together but a gay couple have to go undercover? Why would we think that is okay? Would you feel comfortable suggesting that an interracial couple be sure to just have one go alone to order things for the wedding and take care to make sure vendors don’t know the other’s race?
I also think that saying baking a cake constitutes participating in the ceremony is a stretch in the first place. Apparently it is not a well known fact, but it is a fact nonetheless: people can get married without cake. In fact, cake is not part of any wedding ceremony I have ever been aware of.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
First of all, I was startled to read your assertion that a believer “does not need his brothers and sisters to love him.” This sounds quite absurd when juxtaposed with Scripture’s perspective, which is that love must be the primary concern above all else when it comes to Christian relationships!
Secondly, I am confused as to exactly what you are arguing for or against. My comments that you respond to above were actually in response to your own assertion that in some cases Christians may argue about a certain issue because: “Maybe it is something that kicks them in some old scar and the pain is too much to bear.” I was agreeing with you that this is often the case, and that when it is the case, much confusion can be caused by not acknowledging that the argument is indeed stemming from a personal issue involving much pain, rather than a theological stance or a Biblical interpretation.
I agree with you that Christians can argue for a certain position on an issue based on a number of different rationales, and I agree with you that Christians don’t always have to argue from Scripture or personal experience (and so, for example, can argue from a medical or scientific perspective). My point is that in heated discussions, all parties must be made aware of the underlying motives on all sides (whether medical, rational, philosophical, theological, or personal). Many problems and hurts are caused by two people arguing based on radically different assumptions which go unidentified. (In other words, if Jim argues based on a personal hurt, while his opponent John argues based on a scientific study, there will be miscommunication and confusion).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Tell me about it. I have no legal training or experience, but I’ve spent a fair amount of time studying ANE law from a cultural and linguistic perspective, and it is indeed confusing.
It’s a good reminder as to just how far removed the world of Scripture is from our world (historically but also culturally, cognitively, etc.), and thus how careful we have to be to approach Scripture on its own terms, rather than projecting our own culture and cognitive patterns onto it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marie2 wrote:
Marie, why, specifically, does this concern you? We do not have a state religion in the U.S. thank God and we also have a First Amendment (see BTDT’s comment above).
Frankly, in the context of some of these current legal actions by churches regarding insurance coverage for birth control and gay marriage, it strikes me that it is religious organizations that are seeking to expand the definition of “church members” to include businesses and their employees.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I agree with everything you said in your comment. I am not hopeful, however, that churches who refuse to perform gay marriages would be allowed to get away with that. They do, for example, have certain tax advantages, and are repeatedly threatened with loss of that (though I think it has not happened) for engaging in political speech. How far is this nation from saying that certain attitudes toward various sexual issues is actually political speech rather than religious speech? I am not saying this is going to happen, but I am saying that there is a way that it could happen.
Of course, if churches get entirely out of the wedding business that would solve it.
But then somebody could raise the issue of women pastors, and perhaps gender discrimination claims could be brought against the church. This whole issue of gender and sexuality and marriage is all entwined with potential end results that might cause some people to freak out.
But you are more hopeful than I am, and I hope you are right.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mr.H wrote:
OK. I am not the best explainer. If Jim, regardless of his personal hurt has a good scientific argument, his scientific argument should not be discounted simply because of his personal hurt.
I made one argument in my original comment–that we all need to be less critical of people who do seemingly inexplicable things because they may have personal reasons for doing so. One ought not leap immediately to negative conclusions based on the fact that the person may be christian.
Then you responded with, basically, lets dig around and see if we can find some personal experience (under the guise of touchy feely it seems) with which we can identify that area and thus discount anything the person might say even if it is based on scripture, for instance. I object to that also.
I am trying to say that christians have brains and pains like everybody else. Leaping to negative conclusions just because someone is a christian is nuts. There are also other ways that people do that, of course. These just seem to be the two ways it pops up sometimes in some folks comments here.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Yes I agree with you Nancy, thank you for explaining where my brain was coming from.
I am totally fine with wedding cake people being asked to serve everyone and not discriminate, but I hope that a line can be drawn with pastors.
Already, there have been dustups about chaplains not being able to pray in the battlefield, or something of that nature. A friend of mine has been following that more closely than I have. So I guess I could Google that later.
It’s such a crazy balance – I agree that churches are trying more and more to do more business-y things, which could ultimately hurt the churches that was to just keep it simple.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ molly245:
One portion of a later comment upon Kraft’s confession stood out, and I agree: “Finally, why haven’t you or any other former pastors brought up the sin of bold faced lying? According to the official, current history of MH, MH was founded by Mark and Grace Driscoll. There is no mention of a Pastor Lief or a Mike Gunn. When I see this history returned to a factual history (where it was just a few years ago), then I will know that MH has finally gotten back on the rails.”
To head Headless Unicorn Guy off at the pass— “Comrade Moi never existed! There never was a Comrade Gunn!” From Moi’s story, we can get a glimpse of the devastation from his being made an *unperson*.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Anonymous wrote:
It depends on whether the building is owner occupied and the number of units in the building. In a two unit building having an upstairs and downstairs unit with the owner living in one of the units, the owner can refuse to rent the other unit to any one with out providing a reason. I believe that right may extend up to a maximum of a four unit building, again providing the owner occupies one of the units and rents the remaining three units. At least, that has been my experience.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Hi Nancy,
Thanks for responding patiently and not giving up on me! 🙂
I agree that his scientific argument should not be discounted because of a personal hurt. I am saying that the scientific argument should be heard and discussed, while at the same time acknowledging the personal hurt. It’s both, not either-or.
Your solution is too simplistic for the average human being. That is to say, humans are complex creatures and it is difficult, if not impossible, for most people to compartmentalize themselves to the extent that they can set aside a personal hurt and simply have a rational conversation about an issue. For example, I would not expect a person who has been violently mugged to be able to have a “rational” conversation about neighborhood safety. That is not fair to them, and it is not fair to the discussion process. Instead, we should lay out all arguments on the table and so fairly address each one. I would never discount someone’s statistical argument because they have also been personally hurt. But to attempt to compartmentalize is unfair to all parties involved, and also intellectually dishonest.
This is, of course, a tricky topic, because of the problem of insight. Not everyone has the same level of insight – and some individuals have quite low insight – and so are unaware of the full range of factors that influence their reaction to a given topic. It is precisely in these low-insight situations that some of the most hurtful, confusing arguments take place. That is why it is very important to constantly pursue personal insight in highly-charged discussions.
Respectfully, you are misrepresenting what I said in a number of different ways. First, I would never be critical of someone for having a personal hurt regarding a specific topic! On the contrary, I am quite clearly advocating for priority to be given to empathy and love in all circumstances.
Second, I never leap to a negative conclusion about someone because they are a Christian. I am not sure who or what you are responding to here.
Third, it is disrespectful, condescending, and unhelpful to use a term like “touchy feely” to refer to the concepts of love and empathy. I will refrain from pushing on this point too much because it is very possible that you happen to personally struggle with these concepts.
Fourth, I am not saying that we should “dig around” to find some personal hurt that will negate someone’s argument. It sounds like you are very worried about having your more rational, fact-based arguments discounted by personal experiences and hurts. Please, be assured that this is not at all what I am advocating! I am making the case for openness, honesty, and empathy, not some sort of trickery for the sake of “winning” an argument.
This may be what you think you are saying, but it comes across more like, “Christians have brains and pains, but only the brains should be brought into the discussion and the pains should be ignored.”
And again, I am not sure who you think is “leaping to negative conclusions just because someone is a Christian.” I am certainly not doing this, nor encouraging others to do this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I don’t understand the controversy. If only those who are good according to the criteria of men were people Jesus associated with, there would be no reason for the atonement. As far as goodness, all have fallen short. Being courteous to people you disagree with or baking that cake for individuals whose lifestyle you don’t agree with doesn’t mean you sanction their behavior. Sometimes the best witness is how a Christian treats others, including those who her or she views as living sinful lifestyles. What kind of a witness is it being rude to people whose lifestyle you disagree with? It is written in Mark 12:28-31 to love G-d with your whole being and to love your neighbor as yourself. That neighbor could include sinful and troubled people of the real world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
That’s interesting. I was traveling through a New England state and stopped in a business that served food. Inside by the entrance, there was a sign that read we reserve the right to refuse service to any one and you will be asked to leave. If you refuse to leave the police will be called (name of local police dept.) and you will be charged with trespassing.
I’m aware a business my ask a customer to leave say due to disorderly conduct, but that was not the situation here. It was simply a blanket statement.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Joe:
This intrigued me, so I did a quick search. It looks like these signs are more for show than anything.
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/restaurants-right-to-refuse-service.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Totally completely off topic. My husband didn’t get to go to church today because he had to make a delivery. The delivery was shopping carts for a brand new Hobby Lobby in Orlando. As my daughter, who has set up new stores before says, it is usually a corporate team and the local employees who do the set up on a new store. So Hobby Lobby has their employees working on a Sunday as well as my husband and other truckers delivering stuff to the store. I want to say what hypocrites! I could be wrong. By the way, anybody hear what happened with their Supreme Court hearing last week?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
A first. I am in moderation, unless you are moderating everything now. Curious what I said that tripped the moderation meter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mr.H wrote:
That is true. You are certainly not doing that. But just read this blog and you will see that there are those who do. And note something here, my original comment was not addressed to you. It was something different all together. So I made an argumentative error. I thought, based on a number of comments, that if i gave people something emotional and personal then I might get my point across better. Little did I know. I experimented with argumentative style, to illustrate what I think was a perfectly good point, and I got myself in quicksand doing that. So I scratch that off the list and try something else in the future.
So, OK. we need to be through with this now. I am sure you have a lot of good stuff to say, and I am convinced that you seem to be a good hearted person. And you can quit already with not understanding what is going on with me. I am, as I have said before, a classic textbook case of ISTJ. We are those who by instinct live in a world of “analytical pragmatic realism” according to the describers of that paradigm. We make up about 7-10% of the population, and we have our uses. That does sometimes take people by surprise because I am physically small and female and now really old. They do not expect it. Or understand it. Or approve of it, apparently. As far as I can tell we do not play the same “religious games” that sometimes flourish in churches, and we have to find ways to “do church” without compromising ourselves or traumatizing other people. Sometime that does not work out too well, but that is how it is.
Let us declare peace and go forward. You are you and I am I and surely there is room in the kingdom for both of us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Wisdomschaser:
You showed up as a new commenter in our system. All new commenters are moderated. I know you have commented before so i wonder if something in your email, IP ,etc. changed. But it was the moderating robot, not us.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wisdomschaser wrote:
Thank you for your interesting comment! Now that one should get around. I may call them and ask about it.
The hearing concluded. I think that the justices only allowed for 1 1/2 hour arguments. They will make their decision sometime in early June.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wisdomschaser wrote:
It happens to the best of us, I promise you!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
Oh, Josh. I just saw your post and link. That is so awful.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Thanks Dee. My grandson was doing stuff on this computer cause his is in the shop. Maybe that is what did it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
I think I get what you are saying. Doesn’t Paul argue this when it came to eating food dedicated to idols? For one, it is OK. For another it is not.
I think the tricky thing about this is that it deals with human beings as opposed to an inanimate something like food dedicated to idols, alcohol consumption, etc.
That is why I think this will continue to be an explosive issue. Anonymous made a good point that everyone should be able to stand up for the dictates of their conscience so long as it does not take a vital service away from another. So, a cab drive could see her will not carry passengers carrying liquor if he is opposed to liquor. There are other cabs, after all.Come to think of it, I bet we could have an argument on what constitutes a vital service.
But where do we draw the line. Anonymous made the point that people have been examined to see the sincerity of their actions. For example, we know that Quakers are conscientious objectors and the court has allowed them not to be put into combat roles.
Where it gets tricky is that today we have an increasingly pluralistic society so that the views of those who do not have a particular religion or well established rules could also be against alcohol “just because.” One would have to be Solomon to sift through that stuff.
I think this will continue to brew and there will be many controversies to come in the coming years. I fear it will come down to “And everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” And at this moment, I have no solutions.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
This is exactly what I was talking about in a comment. Housing is a vital service.
Then, we have the homeless who will not accept help. Many of these are chronic substance abusers or mentally ill. When we closed many of the hospitals that catered to those with mental illness in the 1960s, we have seen an increasing number of homeless individuals. I used to track some individuals down who had been lucky enough to get into a community based treatment program. They were supposed to get medications and they would forget to turn up for their appointments.
I wish I was smarter. These subjects are so difficult.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
@ Wisdomschaser:
Just so you know, I go into moderation myself. I suffer the same indignities as our readers. I am in solidarity with you!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
I’m assuming Judas was also present when our Lord initiated the Last Supper.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wisdomschaser wrote:
Considering that keeping stores closed on Sundays is part of their whole “we are a Christian company following Christian principles” claims…what hypocrisy. Basically, what they mean is “we follow Christian principles when it is convenient for us”. Go figure.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I feel the need to say this. For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many Christians are so upset about homosexuality. I understand that people believe that the Bible classifies it as a sin, but why get so upset about this one sin? No one is hurt when unmarried consenting same sex adults decide to join their lives. And I am a sociologist and I reject the argument that any social harm results at all. A certain portion of humanity has always been homosexual throughout history. The evidence is mounting that there is a genetic association. It makes no sense to me that they should have to be celibate and alone. And it makes even less sense to me that people who are attracted to the same sex should enter into a heterosexual marriage because of religious guilt and deprive both partners of true satisfaction. Making love with one’s spouse is a wonderful joy when love and desire is combined. Making love with a spouse who has to fantasize about someone else is just sad.
I am going to look more closely at what the Bible has to say about this because it is just unfathomable to me that this is a sin. I can’t think of a reason why it would be.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
I have ended up in moderation myself! Then I had to ‘approve’ my own comment. 😆
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Wisdomschaser:
Wisdomchaser – I used to work on behalf of the trucking industry. Such a vital, important job your husband does!
Seriously people – take some time out of your day at some point and thank a trucker for all their hard work and all they do to keep the U.S. economy running. 🙂
@ ar:
Ha! Even commentators as ideologically diverse as Daily Kos and Rachel Held Evans have noted that Hobby Lobby’s entire go-big-and-undercut-competitors-a-la-Walmart business model is predicated on selling doo dads made by cheap Chinese labor.
And let’s not even start with China’s official “family planning” policies of one-child-per-family.
Do the “family values” execs at Hobby Lobby HQ have an answer for that? Not that they need to answer, of course. It’s a free country. But still …
Mind you, the corporation is so busy in court declaring their employees to be legally akin to “church members” and fighting against the “persecution” they’ll suffer by following the ACA, I suppose they just don’t have time to focus on the whole slave labor thing.
Argh.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Mr.H:
@ Nancy:
Bit late in – in other news, we beat Spurs 4-0 and are now top of the league with 6 games to go – but I’ve been following your conversation with interest.
A common theme in certain corners of the UK church is to dismiss a person’s arguments because they are “hurt”. Oddly enough, this is usually done with misguided good intention, and not with the swagger associated with Morgoth Duncan’s entreaty that believers “pay no attention to the attacks of wounded people…”. It’s more a case of: you’re hurt, and so it’s understandable that you would think these non-standard thoughts: it’s not that you have a well-argued reason for it, it’s just that you’re driven by your pain to try to avoid being hurt again.
Still disappointingly patronising, though.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Not just “human beings”, but human SEXUAL behavior. And today’s Christians(TM) are not known for dealing with anything SEXUAL other than disconnect every neuron above the lizard brain and wave the Bright Red Murder Flag. RAWR!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rafiki wrote:
Hard to focus on “the whole thing” when YOU’re the one personally benefiting from that whole thing. Slave labor is always a personal benefit when you’re the one Holding the Whip. (Or benefiting from those who do; many who can’t stomach the butcher’s trade eat meat.) I believe the original Southern Baptists had a lot of chapter-and-verse Word Of God to back up their Peculiar Institution regarding Animate Property.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mr.H wrote:
That’s really interesting, but in some ways how different is that from filing things alphabetically? Sound is an other aspect of linguistics so I suppose I see it as just another pattern, like the alphabet.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dave A A wrote:
Don’t forget unperson Comrade Frisbee from the original Calvary Chapel.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ar wrote:
At which point, we are back in riot-torn Medieval Constantinople. There was a joke of the time that you couldn’t go into a barbershop in Constantiople for a shave without a third-degree grilling as to where you stood on the Big Theological Fight du Jour — probably with the barber holding a razor to your throat in the event you said the wrong thing. “DIE, HERETIC!!!!”
Its one of the reasons I get a laugh out of Eastern Orthodox cage-phasers on the Web whose solution for everything is “ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY! ORTHODOXY!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sabrae wrote:
“NOW HE’S MEDDLIN’!”
(And besides, with divorce (unlike homosexuality) you never know when you might need that escape route yourself. Keep your options open and all that…)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marie2 wrote:
Calling Dr Jellyfinger…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om5yEvJ_gZE
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
TO OUR READERS-UPDATE ON DEVELOPING STORY ON STEVEN FURTICK
The following story is all alleged-put it before every word.
http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Blogs/Poking-the-Hornets-Nest/March-2014/The-Orange-Ties-That-Bind-Patrick-Cannon-Steven-Furtick/#.UzeO9MinBgw.twitter
Due to the media frenzy, we believe that we should inform our readers so they are aware of the circumstances surrounding the developing media stories…
The media is pursuing Steven Furtick. As many of you know, the mayor of Charlotte was caught in an FBI sting allegedly taking money in exchange for favors. This story has gone national and has been a great embarrassment to Charlotte and North Carolina. This mayor and his family allegedly attended, on occasion, Elevation Church.
Questions are being raised about $300,000 given by Elevation to the city to fight homelessness. Allegedly more money was also promised. Shortly after this, Elevation was given a zoning variance in order to build a church.
The disgraced mayor’s wife, a real estate agent, allegedly just handed in her realtor’s license. New questions being raised about the Furtick mansion and estate.
We will do a post as soon as we feel we can accurately portray the story.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marie2 wrote:
Tell me, when has ANY preacher not been allowed to perform a religious marriage ceremony? preachers turn couples away all the time. Gays are fighting for CIVIL rights. If they are Christian, they are already part of a church family that accepts them. if atheist or agnostic, they’ll go to the justice of the peace just like other unbelievers. I would never be allowed to marry in a catholic or baptist church because I don’t accept their beliefs, but I also never would ask.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Forty-five minutes for each side is standard. If it’s an exceptional case (and there have been a handful), the litigants have been asked to prepare for a longer period. What actually happens is that the attorney for each side has the opportunity to get about a sentence and a half out before the first justice starts in with questions. And then it’s all questions until time is up.
I wish Supreme Court hearings were televised, but even the newer/younger justices are against it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
The tax advantage at risk when churches engage in politics is the one that allows the donors to the church to deduct their donations when figuring their taxable income. Any church could readily give up that benefit to their donors and then advocate election of specific candidates without adverse governmental consequence.
So it is a choice. Advocate for candidates or allow their donors a tax deduction. Quite frankly when a pastor gets in the pulpit in church and advocates for a candidate (or does it in the church newsletter), he ceases being a pastor and the congregation ceases being a church! And it matters not to me which party is the beneficiary of that advocacy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
As I’ve visited the Queen City before on business, my ears pricked up when I heard that Patrick Cannon had been indicted. I spent my lunch hour reading the indictment. One thing that always gets me about this (and I’m not saying anything about the guilt or innocence of Mayor Cannon, that is up to the trier of fact) is that when these politicians are for sale–they are cheap. I figured that in between the cash, the luxury apartment, hotel room and event tickets, the guy was allegedly bought for $80,000. That’s *nothing* money to a big developer.
But this $300,000 donation by Elevation, plus the 2 hours (TWO HOURS) that Furtick and “Chunks” Corbett spent with Cannon–I don’t have a good explanation for this. Politicians of Cannon’s caliber do not have a two-hour period during a work day that they can just take two hours for a social call or religious counseling. The press is right to be on this.
Was Cannon’s wife involved in the purchase of the property that became Chez Furtick? Inquiring minds want to know! It could be a quid pro quo.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Further, churches are not treated as for-profit businesses, and, because the “services” that churches provide are religious, the First Amendment provides them a great deal of protection from suits over employment, etc., related to their religious purpose. When the church strays into operating a food pantry, used clothing “store”, and similar, not entirely religious services, then the church may, with respect to those activities, be held to the same standards as a secular business. A church wedding is an inherently religious activity.
But that is one of the reasons why I am an advocate for marriage and weddings to be two separate functions as in many European countries. Marriage is treated as a civil matter and a brief ceremony is conducted at a public building (city hall, courthouse). Then there is a religious wedding ceremony at a church for those who wish to solemnize their vows before God, clergy and a congregation.
BTW, most larger cities have a “metropolitan community church” where much (all?) of the membership is LBGT or supportive, where a wedding ceremony could be held.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ nmgirl:
I can attest to that part. My fiance and I were turned away by several pastors due to our inability to complete required premarital counseling sessions. We finally found a minister who understands the challenges that long-distance couples face, especially the fact that we are not in the same city for more than a few days at a time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
You need to be watching this Furtick situation in Charlotte. The legal implications are many. I look forward to your commentary on it as it explodes.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I know I sound like a broken record, but I have had many laughs over my hesitancy to start this blog with you because I just didn't think there would be that much to discuss in Christendom. 😆
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Why is the cheif financial officer making a pastoral house call? Something smells fishy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just wanted to offer one tangled up mess where civil courts got involved in something and a long-term rector lost his job. I need to dig some more, but I was thinking of this case – the rector in question had voted a Bishop into office, and then the Bishop turned around and defrocked him over some sexuality issues.
Then it got messy because the Bishop was eventually fired for not reporting his sibling’s predatory advances on a minor in his youth group.
Yes this is pretty extreme, but some alliances are sure to shift around as this explosive issue gets more explosive.
Did not mean to sound so alarmist in my original point about imprisoning pastors. They just need to be savvy about what group to be allied with, sometimes.
see
http://accurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2011/08/judge-orders-removal-of-good-shepherds.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Continued….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Last part of a very extreme story – the big boss lost his job, the little parish priest lost his job, a very muddy story.
I actually am torn between the two sides – I believe if a parish priest/minister feels a need to go according to his/her conscience, there ought to be a way to work that out.
I do know of a PA Methodist minister that went in the opposite direction – she performed a wedding ceremony against an injunction not to.
I just agree with the DTS guy that this should be left as a decision of conscience. Otherwise, parishes can get jerked around a bit, and loyalties drawn, and it can just hurt the little guy, in the end.
Just my 2 cents – the Methodist minister ought to be allowed to perform the ceremony, the conservative Anglican priest ought to be able to not feel obligated to vote a gay Bishop in, and all should go home happy.
Starts out:
http://articles.philly.com/2002-09-09/news/25362401_1_episcopal-bishop-pittsburgh-diocese-defrocking
ending:
http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=18386#.UziruqhdWSo
Ex-Episcopal Priest Settles Lawsuit with Former Lawyer over charges of Defamation and Fraud
By David W. Virtue DD
http://www.virtueonline.org
December 19, 2013
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Checked out the story on the link and did a little googling. I did not find any reference to the stuff about the house and the ex-mayor’s wife. Perhaps some of the commenters or readers from the Charlotte area could post some more links for those stories. Otherwise, I will do some more digging tomorrow.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2:
Pastors who commit or cover up child abuse (and in some states, have affairs with a church attender or counselee) belong in jail. Pastors who don’t take the necessary steps to cover their looting of the church till will end up in jail (the steps need a docile board to approve the money transfers, so the CEO does not end up a provable thief). With all that goes on in the evangelical and main line worlds that is legally actionable, I would not lose any sleep that some pastor, somewhere in the USA will be prosecuted for not performing a wedding for a couple who are not of opposite gender — it would not happen under current law or any proposed statutes with a bracket’s chance of being perfect!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
Here’s the one on the wife.
http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Employer-severs-ties-with-Cannons-wife-252922071.html
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Invaild_Nate:
You mean, CFOs of churches usually don’t do home visitations?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
So Elevation Church may have contributed $300,000 dollars to the homeless when in actuality they were also possibly influencing a zoning in their favor?
*
Do you mind if I yawn?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Hmm, interesting take – the church is too splintered to be fully effective. I agree, but if the only thing churches can agree on is political issues, as it seems to be in the Southern US, I’m not sure it is any more unified.
Although, I would love to see the church universal come together at least once a year despite the zillions of doctrinal differences. We could always choose Yom Kippur to do that – as that is when Israel was all united in fasting (day of Atonement).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“Jesus had very specific reasons for hanging out with Judas rather than with, for instance, the men who hired Judas. A question we should ask more often, perhaps, is: what is the Holy Spirit drawing our attention to in this specific place and time and to this specific person?”
I suppose the Pharisees wouldn’t have bothered to even be Judas’ disciple, since they were the “chosen” ones who didn’t need a Rabbi, they were the ones picked by rabbis to learn with when they were youth. Jesus comes along and chooses the young men who had been passed by in when the time for choosing disciples passed with the 12 in the “reject” pile.
So, he could only choose his 12 from the willing. The group that actually wanted to be disciples at an age when no one took disciples. I have often wondered if he called others, but they refused – since, once they were passed by in the synagogues, they then when into their father’s business. So, many young men may have said to Jesus:
“sorry, rabbi, it’s too late, I need to help my father ____________ (fish, build, craft, farm, etc.).”
Perhaps Jesus called all the rabbis-rejected pile from his region (weren’t they all from around his house? town?). The 12 represented the ones who responded to his many offers. Maybe not, but it could have happened that way.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
YES!!! I fully agree with that. I finally had to go to Wikipedia for a shorter version of the story. I am relieved to be reminded that the First Amendment still has some protections for clergymen. I had to re-read the story to see that the Montgomery County Court of Appeals was dragged in for the Moyer case, after internal appeals were exhausted.
Also, I apologize for rushing through the story, so as to imply that I think it was ok for Bennison to avoid jail. It took from 2006-2013 for him to finally go away, and that was just involving church rules, and many appeals. I could not attend any PA Anglican church at the time, because so many announcements were caught up in the minutiae of this guy’s thousand lives of appeals. The story of what he did is horrifying.
There is a tiny possible parallel between Bennison and Moyer, and Mahaney and Brent Detwiler of SGM.
According to wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_E._Bennison
Moyer appeared to defy Bennison’s authority, so Bennison picked a fight with Moyer, and then Moyer and him could not resolve it amicably, then Moyer took on the fight of his life to stay where he was, and yes, it sounds like he looted his parish in that process.
Hopefully the Brent situation ends with him finding another career of some kind, and Mahaney finally gets what he legally deserves.
So YES I agree that people who cover up child abusers should be in jail. It’s a shame that so many people were poorly affected in Moyer’s parish.
Ok now back to Charlotte…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“The Homeless Helped In Charlotte, Perhaps?”
@ Dee ,
“…Questions are being raised about $300,000 given by Elevation to the city (ed. of Charlotte, North Carolina) to fight homelessness.” ?
hmmm…
Q: Did any of the Elevation money perchance (for example) go to any of the following type of groups listed below:
‘Day Shelters’ supplement homeless and low-income people when the shelter their staying in only offers shelter on an overnight basis. Case management is often provided and sometimes there are laundry and shower facilities. Meals and basic hygiene may also be offered. Almost all day shelters provide their services free of charge. Any emergency or homeless shelter that allows clients to stay during the day is also classified under this category.
‘Emergency Homeless Shelters’ both provide short term relief for the homeless & low-income. Usually there is a maximum stay of 3 months or less. Many of these shelters ask their clients to leave during the day. Meals and other supportive services are often offered. 3 times out of 5 these shelters offer their services free of charge.
‘Halfway Housing’ helps transition individuals and families from shelters or homelessness to permanent housing. Length of stay is usually anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. Residents are often required to pay at least 30% of their income toward program fees. Sometimes the money they pay in fees is returned to them when they leave. Any emergency or homeless shelter that allows their clients to stay more then 6 months is also classified under this category.
Permanent Affordable Housing is a long-term solution for housing. Residents are often allowed to stay as long as they remain in the low-income bracket but is sometimes limited 3 – 5 years. Residents pay no more then 30% of their income towards rent. Emergency shelters, homeless shelters and transitional housing programs that allow their clients to stay without a maximum stay is also classified under this category.
Drug And Alcohol Rehab programs are intended to treat alcohol and/or drug dependency. The cost of participating in one of these programs and the method of treatment range significantly. The database operated on this website only includes residential rehab programs (not outpatient programs). We also provide Access to Recovery (ATR) Grant programs for substance abuse treatment.
‘Supportive Housing Programs’ that provide an alternative living arrangement for individuals who, because of age, disability, substance abuse, mental illness, chronic homelessness or other circumstances, are unable to live independently without care, supervision and/or support to help them in the activities of daily living; or who need access to case management, housing support, vocational, employment and other services to transition to independent living.
‘Shared Housing Programs’ helps bring low income persons together and helps prevent homelessness by providing affordable housing options. This service is good for families, disabled persons, and others wanted more companionship.
‘Rooming House or Boarding House’ A rooming house is a building in which renters occupy single rooms and share kitchens, bathrooms, and common areas. The location may be a converted single family home, a converted hotel, or a purpose built structure. Rooming houses are low cost housing and may have as few as three rooms for rent, or more than a hundred. The same goes for boarding houses.
‘Transitional Housing’ is affordable low cost supportive housing designed to provide housing and appropriate support services to persons who are homeless or who are close to homelessnessness. The transition is to help them be more self sufficience to move towards independent living on their own. Services provided at transitional housing facilities varies from substance abuse treatment, to psychological assistanc, job training, domestic violence assistance, etc. The assistance provided varies, but it is generally affordable and low cost housing.
___
Reference:
http://www.shelterlistings.org/city/charlotte-nc.html
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val:
This narrative sounds so nice, it preaches well, and I’ve heard it so many times, that in some ways I’d like to just keep it around. However, in the interest of responsible scholarship, the historian in me must point out that we actually know very little about the specifics of 1st century rabbinic training in Palestine.
The system you describe actually belongs to a later time period (i.e. Mishnaic). It was popularized and applied to the New Testament narrative by guys like Rob Bell (cf. the chapter “Dust” in his book Velvet Elvis). I am, at best, only an adequate biblical scholar, so I’ll let someone much more qualified speak to this:
“First of all it seems clear that Rob, in his valid attempt to read Jesus and the NT writers in the context of early Judaism, has not used good enough sources to really help him understand the difference between Judaism prior to the two Jewish wars in the first and second centuries A.D, and later Mishnaic and Talmudic Judaism.
Jesus was certainly not a rabbi in the later Mishnaic sense, much less like modern ordained rabbis. It is telling that the only time Jesus is ever really called rabbi by any of his followers is when Judas does so when he is betraying Jesus with a kiss. Jesus’ approach to the Torah is not like later rabbis in various ways, not the least of which is that he does not cite (indeed he often contrasts his teaching with) the oral traditions of the elders, such as Hillel or Shammai and the like. Jesus spoke on his own independent authority. At times Rob seems too uncritical in his reading of sources like the truly dated works of Alfred Edersheim, and apparently he spends too much time listening to folks like Ray Vanderlaan, a local teacher in the Grand Rapids area who doesn’t really much understand the differences between medieval Jewish rabbis and the context and ethos of teachers in early Judaism of Jesus’ day. Rob needs to read some viable sources on early Judaism, for example some of the work of Craig Evans or George Nickelsburg or Jacob Neusner if he wants to paint the picture of the Jewish Jesus using the right hews, tones, and features.”
[Source: http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2007/02/rob-bell-hits-lexington-and-packed-out.html ]
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
I like your wife a lot. She sounds like what I like to call “good people”. (See applauding smiley here).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val: Nicodemus was a Pharisee. I have no doubt there were other Pharisees among the larger group of disciples, since it was one of the two leading schools of thought in Palestine in Jesus’ time.
Jesus’ wwoe to the Pharisees/Sadducees statements were about corrupt religious leaders, not about all Pharisees and Saducee. This is an area where more context and history would be extremely helpful in understanding the Gospels.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
justabeliever wrote:
OK. This comparison doesn’t exactly work for me, but OK.
That said, I want to tell a [true] story that a nurse once told me about something that had happened to her:
Said nurse was working at a hospital in a nearby town from where I am writing this. She had told the hospital that she would not & could not work as a nurse in a case where a doctor was performing an abortion. They worked around her, having other nurses in the OR when an abortion was being performed.
One day, one of the top surgeons at said hospital came to her, much harried, & said that while he understood & respected her Christian stance, that an abortion performed by another doctor was going horribly wrong. The doctor who performed the abortion had falsified info, saying that his patient was about 2 months pregnant when it was actually closer to 7 months. He cut the baby out in pieces, & left the mother hemorrhaging. Her life hung in the balance. He needed a surgical nurse STAT. She scrubbed and stood in that OR & helped the surgeon as he saved that woman’s life.
Afterward, he thanked her, & said, that he saw in her a truly pro-life nurse. I have often thought of that when I hear stories about Christians acting like pharisees and/or levites, passing by on the other side……..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
Thank you for this post. I knew about this, but lacked the words to express it properly. Your legal training made this crystal clear.
Thanks again.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Val:
Paul was a Pharisee. There are some hints that perhaps Joseph of Arimathea might have been.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ zooey111:
Some of us come close to thinking that we have seen more christ-like behavior, if not necessarily always belief, in the hospital than in the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Yeah-yawn away. Who cares that little churches can’t buy the same favors? Who gives a hoot if buying favors does not line up with the gospel? Let’s buy our favor with men. God doesn’t have to be bothered with such mundane matters.
I sure hope the entire $300,000 made its way to the homeless, BTW since Cannon seems to be fond of making money.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Joe wrote:
It was a blanket statement without teeth or enforceability. If tyhey are a place of public accommodation, as An Attorney says, they’re subject to the Fed CRA.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marsha wrote:
Whether something has a genetic component or not (as you mention elsewhere in your post, but which I didn’t quote here) is irrelevant, because I think you could argue in our present state, whether it be genetic or spiritual or both, we all have a propensity to fall short, to sin. That’s rather the point of my faith and the need we all have for a savior.
That said, I think the reason people get “so upset about this one sin” is because it appeals to the mind of the Pharisisee. As roughly 97% of the population is not homosexual, it’s a sin with which relatively few struggle. Therefore, it’s perfect for the person who’s “faith” primarily consists of pointing a long bony finger.
Like drinking, smoking, tattoos, strip clubs–it’s relatively easy to avoid those, you can drive right on by the bar or picket the place with the neon “Live nudes!” You can feel quite proud of your godliness that way. It’s much harder to look within at envy, hatefullness, pride, cruelty–and of course, if you’re one of those with the long bony fingers, you’re probably full of those really ugly soul-destroying things, and you’d rather not look within.
So you focus your efforts on defeating the latest gay rights legislation (because we all know–it’s quite clear there in the Bible–that Jesus said to look outside to the world and judge them and mock the homosexual couples and post nasty stuff on facebook and go into the political arena and fight His fights there, and by no means ever look within your own hearts for ugliness, look outside at others).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
zooey111 wrote: I like your wife a lot. She sounds like what I like to call “good people”. (See applauding smiley here).
Thank you! I think my wife of 25 years (and counting) is “good people” also. We can understand that something is sin while also understanding that WE have sin and at the end of the day are no better than anyone else (maybe worse for all we know). My wife wanted “A” to have a prom date, obviously cared about “A” more than she cared about her own reputation at that school.
Too many Christians want to make the world into Disneyland, but it’s so backwards, because we’re not called to do a danged thing with the world, but with ourselves, then maybe, if we’ve gotten some boards out, taking the speck out of a brother’s or sister’s eyes. No time left to sanitize the world.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Someone earlier talked about whether we were converting people to Christ or to heterosexuality. Excellent point. I think our attitude should be: That person over there needs Jesus, and if that person asks me “But are you asking me to give up my sexuality?”, we should answer: “The point’s moot. Everyone struggles with some manner of abominable sexual sin, whether homo or hetero, it’s far worse than that, God is asking you to give up absolutely everything that you think is yours, He’s asking you to give up your whole self, every last bit, and make you into something new, sexuality is just a footnote.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marsha wrote:
I disagree with both you and LawProf on this one. People get “so upset” about a lot of stuff, things they call sin, things which the bible calls sin, doctrinal differences, and skirt link even. People who do not run in the same circles with people who get upset about a lot of stuff may not be aware of how much upset-ness there actually is out there. The homosexual issue is prominent because somebody took it to the streets and to the court room and the school house. Somebody made it a political issue. Somebody picked a fight. When you pick a fight you get a fight, whether or not you are justified in picking the fight in the first place. That’s how humans do.
Now you can agree or disagree with either side of this issue, but it is not anywhere near correct to think that this is the only issue for which a lot of folks are willing to go to the mat. This just happens to be the issue du jour and in the public eye right now.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Seneca, if you are for real, you are one sick and twisted human being. That attitude is downright unethical and evil.
_______________
“They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”
________________
Any actions by a church to unfairly garner favor in zoning or what-have-you is all over the latter part of Romans 1. It is disgusting.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Maybe a trace needs to be put on that money to verify its ending place 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
My question to you is “Why are Christians so obsessed then with the issue du jour?” Your answer is “That’s how humans do.” That begs the question–you see, Christians are not supposed to do it in the way of the world. We are not supposed to waste our time–at least at this point during our lives–judging the world, playing around with political fights. That is fighting the wrong fight–it’s fighting the Pharaisee’s battle, not the Lord’s.
I don’t know how you can read anything much else into I Cor. 5:12.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LawProf:
Are you saying that all the homosexuals are outside the church? Or that the issue of marriage is outside the business of the church? The scripture you cited has to do with”judging” those outside the church.
Or are you saying that christians cease to be humans? I thought that one of the arguments for the acceptance of alternative sexual matters was that they were, in fact, a normal variant of being human? If christians are no longer human, then they have no cause to accept other’s human-ness, being themselves in fact an alien being of some sort.
My point was and is that this is not the only issue. It may be the only issue of this magnitude of prominence to the general public (and I have said why that is IMO) but it is far from being the only issue. Think evolution vs creationism. Think calvinism vs arminianism. Think gender issues as a whole, and for a fact women preachers is really a big and divisive issue. Think abuse in the church. Think the economy even. I seriously doubt that most religiously conservative folks spend much time thinking about alternative sexualities as a whole or gay marriage in particular because there are other issues closer to home, so to speak.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
This opens up a whole other can of worms. The church has already ceded ownership of marriage in large part. This has to do with the marriage license which is a contract between the bride, groom, and the state. We have already granted the civil govt. the right to determine whether Christians, or anybody, can be legally married. How do I know this? I had a large church wedding, but the cult I was part of did not do marriage licenses. According to the state I reside in I am common-law married. In a state that does not recognize common-law marriages I would be cohabiting if my ceremony had taken place there. I’m not happy about this, but it is what it is.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Could you now go have a civil marriage ceremony, or however they do it, or are you stuck in this condition? Man, this is a can of worms.
Some folks have suggested that the system in UK be adopted in US, and that is probably a good idea.
I am going to be out for a while, so if I do not respond to you or anybody that is why. Verizon just gave me a new iPhone 5c free for a two year renewal of my contract with them. But I can’t work the thing. My son is going to show me how, and I will be over there doing that for as long as it takes.
I am sorry about your situation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
Thank you for your concern. We’ve talked about a civil ceremony. I think as we work through other issues of spiritual abuse we may do that. But, I have an album full of beautiful wedding photos. And beautiful memories. Years ago, I befriended the woman who ran the dry cleaners I frequented. She gave me a special deal to have my dress preserved. Ack! Sorry. This one still hurts. But, we’ll get there.
I understand about the phone. 🙂 I have an old iPhone that’s a few iOS old. I didn’t want to lose the original YouTube and Google maps, so I’ve refused to update it. My husband keeps assuring me I can put the third party apps on there. I’m just stubborn, I guess.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“On the other hand, I do not believe Jesus would have “baked a cake” for a same-sex wedding ceremony. In my estimation, that is a totally separate matter and should not be confused with an individual who markets his/her product or service to the general public.”
Jesus would not have baked a cake. He would have turned his corsage into one. 🙂
Having said that, this point of yours is excellent.
And I love how Carter continues to appeal to “logical conclusions/implications”. The irony of a someone at the $@&! Gospel Coalition engaging in such a tactic is a rich, rich irony.
Hey Carter, let’s debate the logical conclusions of the pastor “standing in the stead of God”.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
I disagree with this. I think we sometimes confuse the false self with the true self. The true self is what God had in mind when S/He first made us; the false self is what we have been/done instead. We give ourselves to God and S/He frees us to become again the wonderful particular selves we were created to be. To become new in Christ doesn’t mean that our created structures will be different.
And here on earth, it is mostly a spiritual new/renew, since conversion doesn’t change genetic code (for eg). Any of those corrections, if needed, has to wait for the New Earth.
Also, I know you don’t intend so, but when gay sexuality is equated to heterosexual sins, it demeans the immense demand placed on the gay human. These are not equivalent. When we tell gays that their sexuality is sinful, we are talking to their fundamental selves rather than to an engrained problem in an expression of sexuality (as with heteros). If I were a gay person, and you said God asked me to give up a core aspect of myself just as He asked the hetero to give up an unhealthy practice, you’d lose me right there.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
But if we were to legislate discrimination against greedy people, then would the church and Christians raise H#LL against greedy people getting married, having wedding cakes, etc.? The Bible contains more condemnation of greed than of homosexual behavior!!! So where is the agitation against greed — pastor’s with million dollar plus compensation packages — other than on sites like this one. Not only did God put that in the OT, Jesus taught what to do with money, and it wasn’t to build large mansions and barns to store our wealth, but to give it away.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Remember that you can celebrate whatever anniversary you choose and that your lovely wedding didn’t fail to occur because it didn’t have legal recognition. I actually have two friends in a similar boat. One choose to marry her wife legally on a weekday because it was the same date as her commitment ceremony several years before and she didn’t want two anniversary. Another discovered too late that the clergy woman they’d engaged for the ceremony wouldn’t sign marriage certificates. She and her husband got legally married by a judge a few days prior to the wedding. They celebrate the wedfing date as their anniversary
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ burntnorton:
Thank you! It never even occurred to me to have a civil ceremony on the same day as our anniversary.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ burntnorton:
We got married in the pastor’s study (with a license) on a Tuesday evening b/c we could get out of her apartment lease then but not later. The wedding was already set for two months away in another state, invitations going out, etc. We told only those who had reason to need to know. So we got a second license in that state (where a friend of her mother was the clerk that issued the licenses!) and had the wedding. And we celebrate both anniversaries and have for 35 years. We kept the first one secret until years later, telling only a few people.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
And you could have gotten the license and had a civil ceremony on the day of the wedding, just earlier in the day, and then had the wedding, as is done in much of Europe.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
No, not saying “all homosexuals” are “outside the church”, as I agree–must agree–that all people, including Christians of course, struggle with sin, some of them with that particular sin. Generally, however, I see the “gay rights” movement as existing primarily outside the church–the true church, made up of all believers, not that place on the street corner called Hillsborough Methodist or Baptist or Catholic Church, or whatever it may be called.
The issue about Christians being human or not I’m not following entirely. Undeniably if I have a brother or sister in Christ struggling with homosexual impulses and giving into them–or deluding themselves that they can sin that grace abound, I ought to judge that. And I certainly believe I can judge something while simultaneously affirming that the one being judged is, indeed, human, every bit as much as me, intrinsically no better or worse than me.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
Like the mummy in that Aqua Teen Hunger Force short — constantly pointing with long bony finger and rasping “CURSE! CURRRRRRSE!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LawProf: everyone is tempted by something “abominable” sexually?
Not sure what you mean by this, but it sounds frightening to me.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo: terrible grammar, but you get my drift.
I think most people are tempted re. things that are quite garden variety, but that’s just me talking.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy: A “fight”? How about a civil rights (as in equal rights) issue?
It’s not about whether people should be allowed to act in a licentious manner (which *some* people of *all* sexual orientations likely do – asexuals aside), it’s about equal rights under the law.
That’s what has a lot of us upset. I realize this wording might be difficult for those who don’t believe that LGBT people deserve equal treatment, but then, it was highly problematic for those who fought (and killed at times) to keep de facto segregation in place.
I’m not upset with you, Nancy, but with the way words get twisted to obscure the real problems.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo: If LGBT people are “less than,” then we can all feel free to make all kinds of people “less than.”
As in Jim Crow days.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Nancy wrote:
Err, I have been hearing fulmination and ranting about “those people” since the late 70s-early 80s, from the very folks you say don’t get bothered about them. Sorry, maybe not in your corner of the world, but in others (including Washington and suburbs, where a lot of influential conservative evangelicals live and lobby), the answer is very much “yes.”
A suggestion: you might want to take a look at Warren Throckmorton’s many posts on Uganda (criminalization of LGBT people + US evangelical fringe involvement and money that were instrumental in bringing it about). Warren is much more conservative than I am, but he calls this stuff out for what it is – hatred, discrimination, demonization of fellow human beings.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Has anyone seen or discussed this book? I think it addresses many of the issues that are coming up here.
I am enjoying it very much.
I apologize if one of my personalities is coming through too strong here – I really have multiple personality disorder revolving around this discussion – watching the infinite pain of a closeted homosexual, very close to me, just engage in many kinds of self-destructive behavior, and die a horrible, merciless death, vs. the people who have a strong conscience about it.
I very much enjoy engaging with the Anglican church. There was a wonderful minister who administered the Eucharist, and cared for my close relative, both before and after he was sick. It’s a great place for me to go when I want to engage with the rest of my family that feels comfortable there.
So while I am no longer worried about wrongful imprisonment, I just am sad that the issue is so divisive.
Unclean: Meditations on Purity, Hospitality, and Mortality Paperback
by Richard Beck (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Unclean-Meditations-Purity-Hospitality-Mortality/dp/160899242X
Description: “”I desire mercy, not sacrifice.”” Echoing Hosea, Jesus defends his embrace of the “”unclean”” in the Gospel of Matthew, seeming to privilege the prophetic call to justice over the Levitical pursuit of purity. And yet, as missional faith communities are well aware, the tensions and conflicts between holiness and mercy are not so easily resolved. At every turn, it seems that the psychological pull of purity and holiness tempts the church into practices of social exclusion and a Gnostic flight from “”the world”” into a “”too spiritual”” spirituality. Moreover, the psychology of purity often lures the church into what psychologists call “”The Macbeth Effect,”” the psychological trap that tempts us into believing that ritual acts of cleansing can replace moral and missional engagement. Finally, time after time, wherever we see churches regulating their common life with the idiom of dirt, disgust, and defilement, we find a predictable wake of dysfunction: ruined self-images, social stigma, and communal conflict. In an unprecedented fusion of psychological science and theological scholarship, Richard Beck describes the pernicious (and largely unnoticed) effects of the psychology of purity upon the life and mission of the church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
In a typical church that would be a good option. I’m afraid, though, that my authoritarian, Shepherding cult would have never allowed us to do that.
I’m probably a poor example to use in illustrating my point. That cult is so far off the grid of what most people associate with “church.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sopwith:
Sopwith wrote:
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2: I very much want to read it, BeenThere – thanks for reminding me about it! (This book came up in comments a few days ago at iMonk.)
While I don’t always agree with Beck, he is careful, thoughtful and very reasoned in all of his blog posts, and I suspect this book is no different.
btw, I hear you as far as people who contracted AIDS due to having many, many sexual partners, although I did not witness firsthand the illness and death of anyone close to me. (Though some of my former classmates from college – I was an art major, as were they – did die.) The thing is, the disease doesn’t discriminate between those who are hyperactive sexually and those who are very much *not* that way. It was a killer then, and it still is a killer for many (mostly straight and in Africa, Asia and Latin America) alike.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo: Sorry for incorrect moniker in my previous post, Marie2.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
It sure is…..At some point, I will get the gumption to watch the documentary, or is just a plain movie, “And the Band Played on” which talked about how many signs of the AIDS epidemic were ignored, when it was originally seen as a “gay disease.”
Public interest is a little on the wane for it, because many medical advances have been made, or so I have heard from fundraisers. But it still is another cause where Christians can jump in with compassion.
No problem about moniker. I messed up yours before, so I guess we are even. 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
Sin, every sin is “abominable” to God, sexual or otherwise, it’s flat out treason against Him. And that’s frightening to say the least.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Gee whiz, I wonder which cult you are talking about. Hahaha.
Seriously, though, as others have pointed out, it’s amazing how much in common many of these goofy, super-controlling, hyper-authoritarian, all in the name of JEEH-ZUS, groups have with each other.
Hope you can celebrate in style, at the appropriate juncture.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2: It was/is a book, then movie.
I haven’t read the book or seen the film – just too wrenching. Though at some point, I probably will try. As for many people who have AIDS and no treatment or support, it’s true and has been since the very beginning. Minority women (here in the US) have historically been ignored by the medical establishment and ostracized by their own communities when discovered to be HIV+. (Not that minority men have fared much better…)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LawProf: I think we differ a great deal in the terms we use to define sin, but that’s for another day, and another discussion!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2:
As some did from the get-go, but… I was in a group that condemned those with AIDS at that time. And I can well remember that even straight people who contracted it via blood transfusion, needle sticks, etc. were highly suspect and shunned by many.
I went against my gut for too many years, sticking with the “unclean!” groupthink. I know I am forgiven, but the reaction of the church as a whole was either condemnation or :crickets:, aside from those few who actually *did* do something to try and help those who were suffering.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I had friends who lost a daughter-in-law and grandson to AIDS due to an HIV-infected blood donor. Their son had been a minister and was fired from the church because his wife and child had AIDS, and they received zero support from the church community.
I have another friend who acquired HIV from being abused (anal rape) while very young. He has been successfully treated, and through a process of collecting and treating the bodily fluid necessary, has fathered two healthy children.
Progress is being made by the medical profession. But our churches seem to lag way behind in treating victims as human beings worthy of being loved.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
Frankly, there’s not a lot of religiously conservative folks I know who don’t muse often on this issue.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
I understand; frankly not my favorite topic to debate, I regret even diving into it. But I will say for what it’s worth that those of my brethren who spend their time and energy trying to affect public policy so that others can’t do this or that (as if that leads anyone to Jesus…e.g., “Honey, the state won’t let us can’t get married, praise God, I’m giving my life to Jesus!”) drive me crazy.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
SOPY: sending you the very best thoughts at this time.
In your unique and wonderful style you’ve imparted wisdom, humour, and been an encouragement here at TWW. Wishing you much encouragement and comfort in return.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
Oh please, are you a novice to adult life? “Influencing” others for our benefit is as old as humanity. “Law Prof?” My lawyer friends, and I have more than a couple, think it’s a joke.
*
Don’t think of it as bribery; instead think of it as an investment.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dee wrote:
Dee, I do doubt your motives. If it wasn’t Steven Furtick but it was St. Vincent’s trying to get a zoning variance for a new hospital wing, it would never have come up. Your problem is with Steven Furtick – one of TWW established villains. I dbout your problem is really with the process.
*
And by the way, do you really think the little churches don’t attempt in various and sundry ways to influence politicians to their church’s benefits. Of course they do.
*
Reminds me of the ancient joke about the wealthy elderly man who asks an attractive young woman if she’d “sleep” with him for $100,000 dollars. She mulls it over in her mind and then say, “Okay.” He comes back with; “Will you sleep with me for $5 dollars?” She responds angrily, “do you take me for a common whore?” The older man responds, “young lady; we’ve already established your profession. Now we’re just dickering about the price.”
8
So the small church who honors Senator Smith with a plague, recognition in the service and a write up in the paper to influence his vote is really no different. It’s just dickering about the price.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Just remember that TX has a mandatory 3 day waiting period unless you complete a premarital counseling course first – and you obviously don’t need the counseling :). My fiance doesn’t get a lot of time off work since he is relatively new to his company and that 3 day period meant we couldn’t have the civil ceremony in TX. We had talked about doing a religious ceremony in TX and the civil one in UT where we will be living but once again too complicated (and too expensive). So we are doing a very small ceremony on a weekday in UT at a reception center followed by lunch at a restaurant and then driving a few hours away for a long weekend alone.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marsha wrote:
But that is the parameter the Bible lays down for hetero, unmarried adults (ie, no sex prior to marriage; you must remain celibate), and some, such as myself (hetero, single adult), have in fact followed that biblical mandate our entire lives.
Why are people, Christians especially, so willing to make exceptions for homosexuals in regards to biblical mores about sex, marriage, and relationships and so forth, but some of the ones who do that, will not budge about hetero, unmarried adults having pre-marital sex or co-habitating?
I don’t see how a Christian person can pick and choose and say “one set of biblical standards applies to ‘Group 1,’ but we will make exceptions for ‘Group 2’.”
And I don’t see any support for the arguments that the Bible is peachy keen fine or vague about pre-marital sex, so pre-marital sex must be okay with God. It looks to me that, according to the Bible, that singles, whether hetero or homosexual, are to remain celibate, and that the Bible defines marriage as being between one man, one woman.
(The Bible mentions polygamy, but that is not necessarily tantamount to meaning God supported it, any more than the Bible’s mentions of slavery, kidnapping, lying, or theft, as practiced by some people recorded in the Bible, means God supports those activities either.)
Anyway, I repeatedly see Christians wanting to water down biblical sexual standards for all people, or apply one set of rules for homosexuals and another for heterosexuals.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ LawProf:
Very much agreed, LawProf.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
A complete non sequitur, but I’ve decided that I had decent taste in music back in the early 70s. 😉
Have spent part of the afternoon listening to the Jefferson Airplane, Shawn Phillips, Crosby, Stills & Nash, etc. etc. Conclusion: these folks would *never* get a major label contract now, and it’s amazing that they were able to back then. Tons of creativity in the folk-rock genre at that time; equally so in soul, funk and gospel.
Wish I still had my LPs from back then!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ nmgirl:
Something in your post reminded me of this page by a homosexual guy who talked about civil unions v. marriage I saw a couple of days ago.
Why gay weddings do NOT advance the cause of equality
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
Everyone? This sort of plays into one of the common stereotypes I see among Christians that absolutely nobody is capable of sexual self-control.
Christians assume someone like me was specially “gifted” with celibacy or singleness, how else to explain my virginity at 40+? The truth is, anyone and everyone is capable of sexual self control (that concept is in the Bible) but most choose not to practice it for whatever reasons.
I may be a virgin at 40+, but I still have and experience sexual desire.
It’s a fallacy to assume all older celibates lack a sex drive, lack interest in sex, or God sprinkled fairy dust on them to remove any hankering for sex.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
numo wrote:
Nowadays, it’s “Just like Justin Beiber/Miley Cyrus, Except…”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee-Deb…
Discrimination abounds!!! and on this very topic.. I strongly protest.
To allow a blogger to push Liverpool FC….to the detriment of Man Utd… is pure discrimination..
I am bound and determined that if the ‘scousers’ win the cup.. I will definitely not bake a cake for Mr Nick Bulbeck..
Lifetime Manchester United Supporter… Long live Rooney!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sorry…. Winn the League not the cup…..
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
“Shepherding cult” is best described as one friend’s definition of “Fascism”:
“Rule by Control Freaks.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
LawProf wrote:
Not that I totally disagree with you, but there are a lot of people, what I would refer to as the more liberal side of the debate, who also push this issue as well.
It’s not just Christians who object to homosexuality or homosexual marriage who blow this issue up, it’s also the other side.
The more liberal crowd insist that Christians who are not comfortable doing things such as baking a wedding cake for a homosexual couple should do so. One of my posts to you or someone else above is in moderation.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: show me the current equivalents of Hendrix, Sly & the Family Stone, the Staple Singers, et. al. There were record execs then who were willing to risk money on creativity, but it didn’t (couldn’t) last. As today, everything good is either on independent labels or self-released.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
ScotT wrote:
Well said.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Marie2:
I think this is the book I read when it first came out and the book opens with the author disclosing that he had already attended hundreds of funerals before he ws thirty. That right there broke my heart, and it didn’t get any better.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ nmgirl: see, that’s why I haven’t read it. Just too painful.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy reported that someone said:
The state has had in place laws about marriage for centuries, often times at the behest of the relevant religious authorities. And marriage existed before and independent of the church. (If you quote the OT, remember that the church did not exist until later than that!!!) Because it is a legal relationship in which the state has an interest, due to issues like children, taxes, inheritance, etc., marriage is governed by the laws of the state. What churches do is solemnize marriage by conducting weddings. The church at at large, and local churches in particular, did not define marriage, at least in the USA.
If the church had wanted to have marriage to itself, it should have, centuries ago, asked the state to make its interest something different, like civil union, and not use the name marriage. But to untangle the laws about marriage, from federal taxation and benefits for a deceased partner to state regulation of divorce and property rights, would consume all of the time and energy of most legislative bodies for several sessions — years of work. Perhaps the religious community can adopt a different word easier than the governments can.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Many of the Christians I know in Real Life™ think that gay people chose to be that way and should just “Turn it off, like a light switch” and get straight married like everyone else. But the Christians I know online who believe that same-sex marriage is acceptable believe that the same standards of abstinence before marriage and monogamy during marriage apply to all forms of marriage, straight or gay.
So I have to confess, I don’t really get where this “different standard” comes in, unless it’s the different standard where churches expect singles to be abstinent until marriage, unless they’re gay, in which case they’re supposed to be abstinent forever, with no hope of marriage, and even less community than straight singles get, because they’re held at arms length because [teh gay]. And by “churches,” I mean the evangelical churches that I’ve experienced in person, as well as many that I’ve observed indirectly online. There are, of course, evangelical churches who don’t treat LGBT people like this, but they tend to fall under the noise floor of the ruckus that the rest of evangelicalism raises.
I’m not asking for pity, because I like to think that I’m a big boy, and I can handle it, but to be honest, I’m not sure how many more years I can take in the Baptist church where I am now, before I head down the street to the UCC on the other side of town. They’re more liberal than I am, for sure, but I think I can live with that. 😮
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
Actually Josh, I think these ‘so called christians’ think that gays are incapable of having monogamous relationships. Otherwise who so much focus on sex? and not the other issues of maintaining a relationship.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
Realize I’m not just saying everyone’s out doing it with a random sampling of sex partners, I’m talking about sins of the heart as well.
But that said, I stand corrected. I cannot assume that just because I struggle with sins of the heart and have certainly not maintained fidelity to my wife by the standards Jesus laid out (even though I’ve never been unfaithful by the standards of the culture at large), even though I struggled with sexual purity before marriage and blew it, that does not mean that everyone has this same struggle.
So I was projecting–I was wrong.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Josh wrote:
Hey dude, here is a manly, big-boy hug for ya!!
You totally rock for engaging us online.
I would go to your wedding if invited, and bake you a cake, but I am a lousy baker.
Peace to your journey,
Marie2
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ nmgirl:
Amen on this one!! Stereotypes abound, and I am very sorry for that….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Josh:
PS – Are you able to comment on the next thread? I would LOVE to hear your input some more…You are a valuable voice here, I hope you feel comfortable contributing some more….
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Marie2 wrote:
You flatter me too much. I did comment, though it wasn’t anything particularly deep.
When I read the threads here at TWW, all of y’all – to borrow an expression from my southern brethren and sistren – say it all better than I ever could. But there are times like this where I can’t resist stirring the hornet’s nest, or poking the pot, or whatever you want to call it… 😮
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Josh wrote:
Please keep that up….I have found here, even though I have not posted all that long, that folks don’t seem that much into checking people’s intentions at the door.
But I do have a bit of multiple personality disorder on most of the issues. I grew up in a very conservative kind of faith, which has gotten pretty stretched at times, but sometimes the conservatism is still there.
In my naive view, I hope for a world where everyone gets a voice.
But I probably am a bit of a kindred spirit, here, because I kinda like to stir the pot, too, I guess. Haha.
Thank you for the shout out. Your rhyme was just perfectly appropriate, like pajamas in bed…..(Marxism, a Marx Brothers reference.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Rusty wrote:
So sorry to hear of your condition, Rusty. 🙁 However, I don’t begrudge you the assistance of your favourite ex-pat (albeit blue) scouser!
As a patriot, I support even Manutd in Europe. Good luck against Bayern tonight!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nick Bulbeck:
(Explanation for non-UK folk: Wayne Rooney, widely considered the best player for Manchester United this season, hails from Liverpool.)
(Just in case any non-fitba’ fans are even remotely interested.)
(Which could happen.)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
An Attorney wrote:
It has long since been done. The catholic church practices what they call sacramental marriage. It has its own set of rules and procedures. There is no divorce from sacramental marriage, but the church may investigate somebody’s civil marriage and determine that there never was a sacramental marriage in place and declare an annulment. That is to say that the supposed sacramental nature of that particular marriage never existed in the first place. I don’t know how long they have had the idea and practice of sacramental marriage, but it is not very recent.
Now some protestant churches have what they call covenant marriage. Something of the same idea I think.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy:
But it is still “marriage” and therein lies the issue between standards for religious marriage and civil marriage. Since each religious group can set its own standards!!!! there needs to be a different name for that form of relationship, as the state has a very deep and broad set of laws that affect marriage. So we need to call the relationship between a couple by something that does not use the word marriage — a different name and resolve the issue a bit.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“I Can See Clearly, Da Rain Is Gone?”
@ Still Soarin’ ,
Thank-You! For your much welcomed prayers, Mrs. Sopy and I are now in a bigger teacup.
-snicker- (at least I can laugh…)
Tempest free, not hardly, but da sky is clearing! Thank you for your faithfulness!
I have enjoyed your spirit!
Blessings!
Sopy
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Tak’in Doze Broken Wings And Learn’in Ta Fly Again!”
@ Rafiki,
Thank you so much for taking time to help Jesus mend ma wings & help me Soar!
We here at Wartburg, are defined not by our discernment only, but by our compassion as well.
…your thoughts sopwards means a lot; as do your insightful words here at TWW. Thank you fro your ‘voice” here, as well!
ATB
Sopy
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ An Attorney:
Perhaps the religious part could be called “Holy Union” or “Matrimony” and not marriage.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Nancy: I think you are referring to an annulment, which is done within the church itself. It’s a complex and often highly political procedure, and depending on who sits on the panel that determines whether or not a marriage can be annulled, it can be a painful (even humiliating) and fruitless process for those who petition for one.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sopwith wrote:
Sopy this is such a welcome bit of news from you. Blessings to you and Mrs. Sopy for grace and joy today, right in the midst of the tempest.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Just read the post that you linked to at the top of the blog – about women taking meals to a strip club – and I want to ask what were they thinking? Don’t they know Jesus would NEVER go to a place where people are SINNING and not making one tiny bit of effort to change? (What’s that? He came to earth? Oh yeah… umm… that wasn’t just because we Christians were already mostly nice and not sinful?)
Sarcasm over. What grace those meal-bringers and Jesus-sharers showed to women who feel trapped and rejected. She’s somebody’s daughter, indeed. He loves her and does not despise her.
Thanks for sharing the story, Deebs.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Sopwith:
Still praying, Sopy! Love you all.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Through a glass darkly:
I love the story so much that I want to write a post about it. Probably next week! I am glad you like it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Through a glass darkly:
I don’t know if that is a one- on- one comparison, though, to the homosexual wedding cakes.
As I said in some post above, even among the Christian bakers who are uncomfortable baking a wedding cake for a homosexual marital ceremony, many of the ones I’ve read of in the news said they have in the past baked cookies and cakes for homosexuals who were graduating college, who got job promotions, etc.
They don’t mind serving homosexuals in other contexts.
What if you were a Christian baker approached by the strippers of a strip club to provide them with whipped cream expressly for the purpose that they are going to spray that cream on their bodies during their strip tease act?
I can see Christians bringing the strippers free sandwiches on their lunch break as being okay and fine, but in the whipped cream scenario I outlined above, I can also see how the Christian baker may feel as though they are in some sense supporting the striptease act by providing the whipped cream.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Daisy wrote:
I agree, Daisy. It was Joe Carter who made the statement that Jesus would not eat with sinners who showed no sign of repentance. I don’t see how that is evident in any of the stories, nor do I see how it could possibly be practical in my life for sure, and I appreciated this story as the antithesis to that pont of view. Not merely being unable to avoid “sinners” but actively seeking broken people out to show them the love of Jesus. As far as the bakers are concerned, I would hope that they would take the opportunity to show love rather than judgement.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Restoring Da Tumblin’ Sheep Pouring In To Wartburg…”
dee wrote:
(tears)
hmmm…
“For the Daughters of Wartburg have come to save that which was lost.”
What do you think?
If any ‘true shepherd’ has a hundred sheep, and one of them has fallen to a religious ditch, does not the true shepherd leave the ninety-nine on da blog and go and search for the one that may be eaten by white-washed-religious-wolves?
And when the true shepherd finds da lost sheep, certainly there is rejoicing even with the ninth-nine who are praying and having compassion, as well.
-snicker-
Shreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
…For the Son Of Man shall have His ‘church’, and da ‘gatesO’hell’, shall not prevail !
Thank you Dee,
Love you bunches, n’ bunches!
http://www.ftdimg.com/pics/products/FA75_330x370.jpg
hum, hum, hum…♪ ♫ ♩
♬ “…just ‘take a pebble’ and cast it into the sea…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUQHRR754xo
Contemplative Respite?
huh?
‘Wretch,’ I cried, ‘thy God hath lent thee-by these Wartburg angels he hath sent thee respite…” (1)
(smiley face goes here)
Sopy
___
(1) (respite) …an interval of much needed rest: a period of rest and recovery between periods of exertion or after something very, very disagreeable has occurred.
*
Bonus: Cat Stevens – “Morning Has Broken…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXWI6ISkzlI
Just because: (parody adaptation) “Shout! Shout, These are The Spiritual Abusive Practices we can do without…I’m talk’in to you, come on!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI9lo5BRJmg
;~)
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
That is a heartwarming story, Dee. Thank you for the link. I look forward to your post about it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Through a glass darkly wrote:
Singing to up the same hymn-tree as the converted choir here, of course, but as we know: Simon the Pharisee, to whose house Jesus went for dinner, showed no sign of repentance. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. An’ a’ tha’.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have a question … it’s actually personal and I’m walking through it right now.
My son and his fiance are living with each other. They are both professed Christians. Both are unrepentant of their sin. Neither have any intentions of changing their ways and are planning their wedding.
Here’s my question … how should I a) as a Christian b) as a Father engage them?
Would it be biblical for me to continue a relationship with them? If so how/why?
Would it be biblical for me to attend their wedding? If so, why?
I’m looking for honest BIBLICAL feedback. Put yourself in to my shoes and let me know your thoughts. Thanks!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
In the OT Abrahamic faith, the act of sexual intercourse between a couple was the equivalent of being married — it established a marriage. Whether that helps you or not is a different question.
In general, breaking off a relationship with your son is inadvisable and likely to result in a terrible relationship with his family for a long time. I deal a lot with a lot of broken families and it is never to anyone’s advantage, in the absence of physical abuse, to break off a family relationship.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
And not attending the wedding which, in your eyes, should legitimize their relationship, would be the biggest mistake of all.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Somewhereintime wrote:
You are not the Holy Spirit. I would go to the wedding and rejoice that these two people have decided to make a public commitment to each other that they want witnessed by those they love. Love covers a multitude of sin . . .
How do you respond in love? The woman at the well didn’t ask Jesus for forgiveness that I recall. Your son appears to be on the road to “not continuing as he has.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
__
“Sin doth Abound, Grace Much More?”
@ Somewhereintime
hmmm…
Anguish.
Embarishment.
What?
In ‘Your’ shoes, datz what they say.
I am do sorry for you. (sadface)
*
Q. Have they set the date?
Q. Have you told your Son, you love him?
Q. Have you pray’d and given this distressing situation to the Lord?
Q. Has He given you ‘peace’ that He will provide?
(I feel for you, this has got to be tough.)
Praying.
Don’t be cheesy, “I want them to be moved, N’ act like Christians” doesn’t play well when you are, perhaps perchance, acting “off da bus” yourself.
“Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in Thy house eating CHEETOS® and play’in foosball forever…”
-snicker-
“Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world…” ~ Jesus
ATB
Sopy
__
p.s. I walk’d around in your Son’s nikies as well, and dis is what I felt: “For once in my life, I have one who needs me…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FApu12-BJNk
Bonus: “God of Our Fathers?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfXCiXZfpUg
;~)
—
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Somewhereintime:
Go to the wedding and help them celebrate, that’s what I’d do with my son or daughter.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Somewhereintime wrote:
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Our heavenly Father loves us even when we sin and fall short. You can continue to be a loving parent and that love reflects that which is extended to us even when we stray.
I agree with others that I would rejoice with them as they begin this new phase of their life.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I fear that the next doctrinal battle Southern Baptists will go thru is over Neo Calvinism. If the gentleman Calvinist can be strident towards Mr. Merritt, how is he towards others in SBC who don’t follow his doctrinal stance? This is one line towards secondary separation practiced by that other baptist body influenced by Calvinism, the GARBC.
Pingback: Eating with Sinners | Dead Heroes Don't Save