"Perry Noble’s book on dealing with depression contains not a single reference or acknowledgement to his decision to take antidepressant drugs."
Perry Noble's Latest Book
No Foolin' – Perry Noble's latest book Overwhelmed has a publication date of April 1, 2014. So who is Perry Noble? According to his bio on Amazon:
Perry Noble is the founding and senior pastor of NewSpring Church in South Carolina. The church averages more than 32,000 people during weekend services at multiple campuses across the state.
Perry is a gifted communicator and teacher, convicted about speaking the truth as plainly as possible. God has given him a vision and a passion for helping people meet Jesus, and each week he shares God's word and its practical application in our daily lives.
His first book, Unleash! was a New York Times Best Seller and has helped many people learn how to break free from normalcy. His latest book, Overwhelmed tells his personal story of his battle with depression and how people can find hope in a world that feels hopeless.
The back cover of the book includes the following:
Perry Noble has stood at the edge of the abyss himself, and in Overwhelmed, he shares the keys to unlocking the chains of anxiety and despair once and for all. Building on the premise that everything changes when we shift our focus from our circumstances to Christ, Perry walks readers through a life-altering plan for overcoming stress, worry, depression, and anxiety so we can be free to embrace the abundant, joy-filled lives we were created for.
Now if there was anyone who should have felt 'overwhelmed', it would have been Dr. James Duncan, who blogs at Pajama Pages and lives and works not far from NewSpring Church. Around the time that we launched TWW, Dr. Duncan began blogging about NewSpring. If you have never read Dr. Duncan's testimony Holy Rage at the Spring, please be sure to do so. He and his family suffered terribly at the hands of 'Christians' who were associated with Perry Noble's church. Dr. Duncan sued the church and received an undisclosed settlement. Our friend Tom Rich also wrote about James Duncan's horrific experience.
Dr. Duncan, who is a professor of communications at Anderson University, went silent for several years, but now he's B-A-C-K!!!
He is greatly disturbed by the advice Perry Noble gives in his new book Overwhelmed and has written a post explaining his grave concerns. With the release of Noble's book less than a week away, we hope you will take the time to read Dr. Duncan's review, which he has given us permission to publish here at TWW.
Perry Noble’s Overwhelmed book is dishonest and dangerous
Dr. James Duncan
Perry Noble has garnered himself a lot of positive press lately for his acknowledgement that he takes antidepressants to deal with his long-term depression. I assumed that the antidepressant news was a teaser for a more detailed account of his decision in the book.
Not so. 
Perry Noble’s book on dealing with depression contains not a single reference or acknowledgement to his decision to take antidepressant drugs. Amazon’s “Look Inside” feature allows you to read excerpts from Noble’s book, though it also lets you do word searches on the entire text, and shows a sentence or two surrounding those words. I did searches for words like antidepressant, depression, medicine, prescription, doctor and found nothing that indicated that Noble either considered or decided to start taking prescription medicine for his depression.
This is an astonishing omission, especially knowing that Noble suffered severe depressive episodes while he was writing the book that necessitated consultations with his doctor who prescribed the pharmaceutical help that he needed.
Here’s what he said in his blog post, with emphasis added:
As I began the writing process the feelings of anxiety and worry began to slowly slither back into my life like a snake sneaking up on it’s prey. I remember writing a chapter in the book, driving home and having a panic attack in my living room.
About three days later I took my daughter to a restaurant for lunch and found myself feeling like I could not breathe and that the walls were closing in on me.
What was going on?
I thought I was done with this, that I had whipped it and that I was going to be able to tell my story and inspire other people to do the same.
But…that wasn’t the case. Anxiety was a fight, and I was losing.
I called my doctor and we had a long talk about my options. He spoke to me honestly and openly about anti-depressants. When he first mentioned them I blew him off; after all, I had defeated this one time without the “drugs for weaklings” and figured I could do it again.
However, the anxiety in my life continued to increase to such an extent that I distinctly remember calling him one afternoon and telling him I could not take it anymore and that I needed something to help me.
I can honestly say that making the decision to take an anti-depressant during this time period in my life has been one of THE BEST decisions I have ever made.
It is obvious from this account that Noble began taking the antidepressants while he was writing the book. His depressive episodes were worsening as he was giving advice on how to deal with them. As I’ve said before, I’m glad that Noble is getting professional medical help, so my criticism is not of him or others who rely on medication for mental health issues. The problem is that he hides the ultimate source of his help from readers of his book, and that is profoundly dishonest. How can he accept money from needy readers who expect his book to help them through their own depression when one of “THE BEST” decisions he has ever made is kept from them?
Not only that, but the advice in the book directly contradicts Noble’s actions and words. Compare:
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Perry Noble's Overwhelmed Book
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Perry Noble's Real Life
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| Is there a way to reduce the stress and anxiety in our lives so we don't have to walk around in a medicated, zombie-like state of mind? | I also believe in the miracle of modern medicine and am very thankful for it. The brain is an organ in the body, just like the heart or lungs or the liver. If there was a pill I could take to make my heart, lungs, or liver more healthy but refused to, people would call me irresponsible. Why not apply that same logic to the brain? |
| If that's the case for you [struggling with depression], I would simply encourage you to read your Bible. | The church has used, “pray and read your Bible more” as a “cure” for anxiety and depression for far too long. |
| If God can bring me through the three painful years of depression I went through, then God can bring you through whatever you're experiencing too. | I remember the very first time I ever had to deal with someone who told me they were struggling with anxiety and depression. I did not understand and could not relate—so, I told them what I thought was the typical “Christian” answer to all problems…they should pray more, read their Bible more and memorize more Scripture. |
The book seems blissfully unaware of Noble’s actual life, though so does his recent preaching. NewSpring’s summary of his sermon last Sunday taught that “Healing will never be found in another … pill, ” yet his antidepressent blog announcement touted the healing power of pills:
[If] you went to the doctor and he said, “here is a pill you can take to fix the problem,” you would be considered negligent and insane for not taking the medicine…. If you would take a pill to cure the liver then why would you not do the same for the brain?
What makes Overwhelmed especially dishonest is that it’s based on Noble’s personal experience, so it doesn’t claim to be an objective or scholarly evaluation of the spiritual, physical and psychological aspects of depression. He tells us, “After a lot of prayer I decided to write a book about my battle and what I learned about Jesus and His faithfulness.”
Here’s the thing. Even while Noble was thinking most intently and clearly about what he understands about Jesus and his faithfulness as it relates to depression, that very thinking was insufficient to keep him stable. When you write a biographical advice book, the reader ought to be able to assume that the advice actually worked for the author. In Noble’s case, it didn’t, yet he, his church, his publisher and his famous friends continue to promote it as a life-changing book. For example, Noble quotes Brian Houston’s endorsement of the book:
My friend, Perry Noble, shares his honest struggle and ultimate victory over his battle with depression and anxiety; and I believe that because of his story, because of his relationship with Christ and because of the grace of God, you can see these principles bring freedom to every area of your life.
Mark Batterson also praised Noble’s helpful honesty:
Perry Noble speaks openly and honestly about his battle with depression and how it IS possible to overcome in his book Overwhelmed. I’ve known Perry for some time and appreciate his willingness to be so open and honest in order to help see people find hope.
Maybe Houston and Batterson don’t know that their praise is based on an incomplete truth, but Noble does. The advice in the book did not bring Noble victory over depression, which means that the principles in it are unlikely to bring anyone else freedom, either.
Integrity required that Noble should have called the publisher and told them that he needed to either cancel the book or rewrite it. At the end of one of his chapters, he imitates transparency by assuring the reader: “I need to be honest with you as I conclude this chapter. The battle over depression still rages in me at times.” His honesty is selective. Transparency would have produced a sentence like, “I need to be honest with you as I conclude this chapter. Most of what I have said is horsefeathers. The battle over depression still rages in me at times, and when it does, I find it best to put this book down, see my doctor and take my medicine.”
As part of his antidepressant blog post, Noble talks about how he sometimes felt suicidal, which means that he is intentionally marketing his story to other people who are suffering from similar self-destructive impulses. That’s not something you take lightly. We’re talking about life and death, yet he is inviting them to pay him for advice that he knows doesn’t work. By Noble’s own standards, that’s not just insane, it’s negligent.
In the last few weeks we’ve been dealing with publishing scandals that focused on actions that wasted a lot of money inflating pastors’ egos and bank accounts. Overwhelmed is a publishing scandal of a higher order, though. Noble and his publishers are selling advice that they know is incomplete and ineffective, and they’re marketing it to people who are potentially suicidal. This is a book that can kill.
Noble ought to recall the book from stores and refuse to offer it for sale until he rewrites it to address the helpful role of medicine or adds a warning label to the cover. Something like,
This book may be hazardous to your health, as it was to its author. If this advice doesn’t work for you, as is likely, you should consult a medical professional who is qualified to help you.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 51:1-53 Titus 2:1-15 Psalm 99:1-9 Proverbs 26:17
I remember going through times of deep depression and trying to pray it away. I’m glad I finally asked for help after several years. Medication made a world of difference for me.
If you think you are suffering from depression, please Please PLEASE see a medical professional. You may save your life. You may not save your life, but make it worth living. But do get that medical help.
First?
Christian attitudes towards treating anxiety, depression, and mental illnesses is a critically important topic!
As someone who has been helped by antidepressants, I find Noble’s (what an ironic name) hypocrisy despicable.
@ JeffB:
Me too.
I’ve been immensely helped with anti depressants.
This man should have his license revoked…
OOPS he is a humble pastor just offering a story of courage.
What a phony.
At least when Dan Allender realized he was a sexual abuse victim while he was researching his ground breaking book, he admits it in a forward. …Maybe in a later edition but he does admit it.
@ Marie2:
Another goofball from Mars Hill:
I bought Justin Holcomb's book Rid of My Disgrace. It’s on my Kindle. I looked and looked for his own personal story.
His book has plenty of neat and tidy platitudes about child sexual abuse. A few interesting passages but nothing really encouraging, in my humble opinion. I can get it out and look it over but it literally can be seen as rid of just in ‘ s disgrace cuz he only describes other people’s stories and not his.
He admits to being a sexual abuse victim in an interview promoting the book.
Hopefully I can create a more lucid analysis another time. Just annoyed he couldn’t include his own story. .. I’ll look in the book again…. Maybe I missed it….or maybe there was a laying on of hands with Mark Driscoll. Sorry for nasty attitude but I find this sort of thing to be insulting to actual survivors.
Also helped by an antidepressant.
I discussed this book by Noble on the previous thread here, and in one other post higher up that page.
Prayer alone, having faith, serving others, and Bible reading did not do anything to make the depression go away for me.
I was on anti-depressant medications for many years, but they did not help me, either. (I am not saying that to discourage anyone else from taking them, just letting people know of my experience).
I did finally escape depression, but not through faith alone, Bible reading, prayer, going to church, helping people, or taking meds.
I find it repulsive that a preacher who was helped by medication in his own situation would admit to it in some venues (such as one or two blog posts) but not mention this fact in other venues, and insist in a book (or a few sermons) that he prayed the depression away or only “relied on Jesus” to receive a healing – when in fact, he took medication for it.
Tyndale House Publishers? Gee, I am surprised they would publish such a book!
“In the statement, Ron Beers, senior vice president and group publisher for Tyndale, said, “Because of the biblical manner in which Pastor Driscoll has handled this situation, Tyndale strongly stands behind him and looks forward to publishing many additional books with him. Tyndale believes that Mark Driscoll has provided a significant call to Christians to unite together in translating the message of Jesus faithfully to a post-Christian culture, to proclaim clearly, loudly, and unashamedly the Good News of Jesus.””
http://www.christianpost.com/news/tyndale-house-publishers-defend-mark-driscoll-seattle-based-megachurch-pastor-apologizes-for-mistakes-111106/
When I was going through the lowest point in my life my physician, a believer, recommended an antidepressant. He told me that it would not solve my problems, but would stabilize my emotions and clear my mind so that I could work through the problem. He was so right. I also saw a psychologist, also a believer, who is well respected in his profession and his church. These two forms of treatment and a select group of Christians who mainly just listened were what God used to bring me back from the brink.
antidepressant-taker here, too.
“the joy of the lord is your strength”… that sure didn’t work. very disillusioning. wasted a lot of time, shooting for a “biblical” ideal…. years that could have been actually good and productive, let alone enjoyable and happy.
hmmmm… taking money from people in exchange for false hope. and being lauded for it. and receiving it all.
perry noble doesn’t seem to know he’s wearing cognitive discopants.
@ elastigirl: There you go again with the 'cognitive discopants'… Absolutely LOVE IT!
Do “ministers” like Noble really care about other Christian when they offer them nothing that is going to really help them in a book that should be located in the FICTION section.
Another antidepressant user for approximately 20 years.
I will never forget trying to wean myself off of the lowest dose of antidepressant my doctor had prescribed me. The office visit went something like this–My doctor asked me how I was really doing and I told him not well. He told me I was physically ok, so what was the matter. I told him I had weaned myself off of my antidepressants. He asked me how I felt. I told him-miserable!
He told me==ok with the medicine you are ok and without it you are miserable. What was his advice? Get back on my lowest dose immediately!!
He explained to me based upon his medical knowledge that I must take my antidepressants until I die. It was not my fault, my brain did not produce enough serotonin. I went back on my medicine and it is unreal the difference it has made in my life.
My humble advice is if you think you are depressed do not walk run as fast as you can to a doctor.
Lastly if you take antidepressants do not stop taking them without consulting a doctor.
One final thought on Perry Noble and his “book.” What a quack!! I hope I am wrong but only bad things can happen to people who are depressed and follow his stupid advice.
Another antidepressant user. Color me supremely unimpressed by God’s efficacy as a cure if all he could do was bring a guy through three miserable years of suffering from depression. I go knews for Mr. Noble – He almost certainly would have “gotten through” that regardless. You know what I’m more impressed by? Something that can more reliably bring me out of misery quicker. Like, say, antidepressants and competent therapy.
I grew up with a mother who was manic depressive. She was also the best Christian she knew. And to her her mood swings were the work of the devil. And Psychiatry was evil. It was only after she got to her later 70s that she began to maybe, kind of, sort of, well just a little bit, said she might have a very slight case of depression. Maybe.
I think that most Christians have real issues with mental illness (more so than many non Christians) as they can’t come to grips with this maybe being a medical issue to some degree. After all we’re talking about your SOUL here. And issues with your SOUL are just NOT medical but must spiritual.
And when medicine does get involved and works then lots of hoops and double talk must be engaged to explain why in THIS specific situation it wasn’t a spiritual issue.
Thanks for stepping knee-high into all that BS, Dr. Duncan. I also hoped Perry Noble would have published an honest account.
There is so much abuse around this issue. So many children of God blamed, criticized, and even become experiments of “exorcism”. I am only comforted because I know how Jesus will have the final diagnosis.
@ TW:
Another wacko book from Tyndale Publishing? What’s going on over there? In the past year they’ve had the Mark Driscoll and now Perry Noble fiascos. What’s next?
I agree we do need honest accounts of these struggles. I had my first bouts of depression while at CLC and, while CJ was preaching against Christian counseling and medication, ended up going that route. As I told the pastors at the time, if they wanted to get out of bed and go to work for me, then I wouldn’t take the medicine. Needless to say, I ended up taking it and it was one of the best decisions of my life. I went off and on it, and now will be on it for the rest of my life, to keep everything balanced in my life. We need to attack depression from all angles – physical, spiritual, psychological. The best counselor I ever had was affiliated with a church in the area and was one of the most spiritual people I knew, but with excellent psychological insight.
Not to necessarily defend Noble, since I don’t follow him, have never read anything by him, nor listened to a sermon by him. And, have no interest either.
As a pastor myself with more than just a passing familiarity with anti-depressants, anxiety and depression I actually struggle seeing the “smoking gun” in what is being said about the problems with this book.
Though I feel I am a competent counselor, I am not a trained psychologist, nor a licensed doctor. My focus when interacting with people struggling with these issues is on the spiritual side. It is quite common for me to strongly recommend that an individual go to a therapist and/or doctor depending on what it is they are talking about. I avoid saying things like, “Oh, you should be on anti-depressants”, or, “Sounds like this is a serotonin issue”. This is because even if I am pretty confident that those would be true statements, I am in no way qualified to, in my “professional” capacity, able to say that responsibly.
I am convinced, by scripture and by experience, that all issues stem from spiritual issues. Sometimes specific cause and effect(I choose to sexually sin, so I feel bad about myself) to general(I live in a fallen world, my body reflects the fall, therefore my brain suffers the consequences in ways that are out of my control). I would NEVER tell someone they DON’T need medication. But I would tell them that my purpose in their life is to address matters on the spiritual side, that is all that I am qualified to do. In the case of mental/emotional struggles I rarely would meet to “counsel” someone more than 3-4 times if they are not also seeing a trained therapist/doctor.
All this to simply say that Noble’s book seems to do what I personally do. Deal with the spiritual component of depression and dealing with it. Even though his personal testimony includes utilization of anti-depressants I am not convinced that it was “necessary” to the content of his purpose. Perhaps there is a danger in someone with depression reading this book and thinking it gives them license to not seek real medical help. But I would contend, since he doesn’t seem to be saying, DON’T do that, someone who reads it in that manner already wants to avoid medication and will proof text the book to justify their decision.
In addition, I would contend that in many cases we are an overly medicated culture. We look to pills to solve problems too quickly. I have had a number of cases where people don’t actually want to address specific problems, but are hoping that a pill will make it all get “better”, and they want their pastor to justify it for them. (think about how huge a market there is for “weight loss” pills….medicine is easier than work for too many people). That is the secondary reason I personally avoid delving too much into medical discussions with people who come to see my in my capacity as a pastor.
I am equipped to do one thing, and only one thing with the power of the Holy Spirit; Preach the word and declare the Gospel. For good, or, bad, reasons when any pastor starts to think of themselves as an expert in areas not rooted in scripture(not that non-scriptural areas are of less “value”)we can get ourselves into some trouble. We should not conflate pastoral counseling with an aptitude to evaluate chemical imbalances.
srs wrote:
Repeat x100
@ JeffB:
From my observations of Perry Noble through the years, hypocritical seems an apt description.
@elastigirl,
Too funny!! It's possible that while wearing his disco pants, he is dancing to "I WILL Survive!" Oh my!
TW wrote:
What codswallop. Driscoll’s “manner” is a disgrace to the pulpit. But, when it comes to money, Tyndale views the bottom line and pretends. Lots of money must be riding on this.
Lee wrote:
Thank you for sharing this with us. After years of dealing with my daughter’s brain tumor, I had a high degree of anxiety which seemed to permeate my days. It was strange. Even when we knew she was doing well and the reoccurrence possibilities were very small, I still worried.
I was put on an anti-anxiety drug which allowed me to reboot. It sure helped me. I do not need it now but I am so glad that I took it and got counseling.
elastigirl wrote:
Thank you for sharing that with us. The more people who are open about taking these meds, the more comfortable people will be in seeking help.
mot wrote:
Thank you for sharing this with us. Christians think it is OK to take insulin when they have diabetes. How is this any different? It sounds like you have a good doctor!
burntnorton wrote:
Thank you for being open! II loved this comment. i have never thought of it that way before. Well said! Give me your address and I will send you chocolate!
TW wrote:
Since when is going into a bunker and refusing to address the issue at all in any way ‘biblical’?
@ Adam Borsay:
I just can’t let some of the errors here go unchallenged. First, you seem to be umder the mistaken impression that depression is equivalent to “feeling bad”. Feeling bad is not the defining feature of depression; the inability to stop feeling bad and he inability to stop spiralling down the path of self loathing and sadness is.
Second, this idea that people who seek out medication are looking for a quick fix and are therefore lazy is dangerous and, quite frankly, silly. Leaving aside the questionof what’s so wrong about a quick fix (God forbid someone actually starts feeling better before they’ve spent a few months or years suffering), it misconstrues how antidepressants work. It takes time for them to start working (a few months). And they don’t make your bad feelings go away. Rather, they make you capable of having good feelings and enable you to actually address the bad stuff in a constructive way. Instead of feeling overwhelmed and going to the dark place, you’re able to look at your problems in perspective, pick one, deal with it, and move on.
This is why people object to Noble leaving his medical information out of the book. Not because we expect him to give medical advice or we object to addressing depression from a spiritual perspective per se, but because leaving it out distorts the picture. It gives a false impression that the nonmedical means of addressing depression and anxiety are enough when not even the author and self-proclaimed expert found this to be true.
This book was inspired by the Holy Spirit. It has been a part of the healing process and your blog is an instrument of Satan to depress me.
Please consider those of us that love our Pastors.
When you post hate, it hurts.
NC Now wrote:
Great comment. I believe that nouthetic counseling has done much to disparage good medical care. They have lumped psychiatrists into the “evil” category and pretend that they, the nouthetic counselors, have “the answer.” They don’t.
Bill Wilson was the famed head of psychiatry at Duke University Medical Center.(Look him up). He was one of the godliest men I have ever met. He told me, shortly before he passed away, that nouthetic counseling was one of the most dangerous trends in Christianity that he had encountered.
I have come to agree with him. People think they can take a weekend course and that they are suddenly “competent to counsel.” They aren’t. They are fine to supportively stand by someone in a crisis and bring chicken soup but they cannot, and should not, think they are anything more than that.
Let’s see how long it is before “they” arrive.
Former CLC’er wrote:
Thank you for sharing this with us. Loved, loved, loved your comment to your pastors. BTW-did any of them ever attempt to interfere with your choice?
@ Adam Borsay:
It sounds like you are a "Nouthetic Counselor". Could you please confirm?
So Perry Noble has been able to cope with his anxiety and depression through the help of mental health professionals and his faith. Yet here he is in his book telling everyone about how faith can help us deal with anxiety and depression but utters not a word about the value of the mental health profession and how it helped him.
What a fraud. Rather than take the opportunity to use his experience to break down the hysterical prejudice against the mental health profession and related medications in the evangelical world, he writes a book that helps perpetuate it.
Why? Maybe because he sees a big market for the book among all those who are being trained in the ‘biblical counseling’ (fka ‘nouthetic counseling’) programs that are growing like kudzu in evangelical seminaries and elsewhere and the clients of these so-called ‘counselors’?
Perry Noble is just another MEsus™ masquerading as a minister.
Adam Borsay wrote:
You lost me right there Adam. Didn’t someone once ask Jesus “who sinned”? Remember how Jesus replied?
Are you telling me that my wife’s Lupus is a “spiritual” disease?
Is my niece’s Down Syndrome also “spiritual”?
I can’t even entertain where your rationale is taking you.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Of course. People are buying illicit drugs and narcotic usage is through the roof. However, what is the cause? Could it be that they have pain that is not being addressed? And is it all “just spiritual?”
I do agree with you that sometimes people cause their own pain when they choose to do foolish things.But even then, do we deny them treatment because they were foolish. People overeat and then get high blood pressure because of weight gain. Should we not allow them to take high blood pressure pills because they caused it by their overeating?
Adam Borsay wrote:
But, I also disagree with a lot that you said. Let’s start with the above quote. Everything in this world stems from spiritual issues. My daughter had a brain tumor because this world does not function as it should. So, should we have sat down and evaluated the sin in our lives since “all” stems from the spiritual?
Just like the body can go awry and produce a tumor, the brain can go awry and produce depression, anxiety, etc. My daughter’s pediatric neurosurgeon told me that he sometimes feels like a caveman when he operates because there is so much we do not know about the brain.
Also, after years of dealing with a serious medical problem (my daughter was three when she got her tumor) I would not have been “blessed” if you confronted me about my sinful anxiety as you quoted every last verse in the Bible about “be anxious for nothing.” I knew them all and “claimed” them all.
How do you know if people are “over medicated?” Which ones? Is it knee jerk reaction when someone comes to see you? I think it would be very dangerous to take that assumption and apply to all who come to see you.
IMO, it was disgraceful that Noble hid that he took pills when he wrote this book. It is not telling the whole story and half truth is a lie in the Bible.
When it comes to mental health issues:
‘biblical counselor’=witch doctor
@ burntnorton:
I really don’t think Adam was equating depression with feeling bad. The fact that he refuses to be the only help sought by a depressed person (I’m paraphrasing but, I hope, fairly) strongly suggests that he recognises the difference. One other: he also didn’t say that people seeking out medication are looking for a quick fix. He did cite instances from his own experience (which I have no reason to doubt) of particular individuals who were looking for a quick fix; or at least had unrealistic expectations about how quickly their problems could be solved. “People” is a very broad term.
I don’t mean to nitpick your comment; it’s precisely because your points are so important that I think it’s worth being clear here. What I mean is: the topic of helping those with a depressive illness is broad and complex, and a broad exchange of perspectives is more likely to help someone reading this with undiagnosed depression.
dee wrote:
Amen.
When it comes to mental health issues:
‘biblical counselor’=witch doctor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmjrTcYMqBM
Lee wrote:
Precisely. These issues are complicated and require a multi-dimensional approach. In our enthusiasm for medication we must not lose sight of the fact that medication alone is not a cure in and of itself, and we must remember that actual mental health practitioners exist for a good reason in that they can deal with stuff the family doc cannot. You seem to be the textbook illustration of how to deal with this issue.
And we must remember that just as not every preacher/pastor is necessarily worth a hill of beans, not every family doc or every psych professional is either. “Second opinion” and “shop around” are good things to embrace as needed.
Personal comment: I have never experience clinical depression or had an anxiety disorder. I do not speak from person experience. But, I recently was treated for cancer by surgery and radiation and medication, though no chemo. During the process the cancer center slung at me enough instructions and printed material to heat the house next winter, among it some stuff about “chemo brain.” You all can access some of all of this online I think. Now chemo brain is due to chemical effect on the brain (but they do not completely understand it and there may be more to it than that.) At any rate, we are talking about something chemical and the brain. And even so, they recommend a multi-dimensional approach for management of the condition and its consequences. I am just using this an illustration to say that skipping the said multi-dimensional approach even when one is pretty sure it is “just a brain condition” is not the best idea, at least not for the initial approach.
@ Adam Borsay:
One final thought: before we start to judge others about overmedicating, etc., think about this. Could it be that the people who use drugs and alcohol be doing so because they have not gotten the help that they need? I wonder if some of them would benefit from excellent counseling and medications.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Fair enough, and I should say that I commend Adam for recommending his parishioners seek medical help in tandem with his counseling. Its just that referring to medication as a quick fix and therefore suspevmct is all too common a way to disparage medical treatment of mental illness.
JeffT wrote:
Amen and Amen and Amen, world without end!!!!!!!
JeffT wrote:
That’s about right!
dee wrote:
One more comment on a comment on Adam Borsay’s comment and I’ll branch out a bit…
I entirely agree: it would be very dangerous for a pastor to apply the assumption of over-medication to all who came to see him. But again, if I read Adam aright, he does not make that assumption. If anything, the assumption he veers towards is that a person struggling emotionally will need the input of a qualified medical practitioner. And obviously, in practice, said medical person will always at least consider the possible need for medication alongside other forms of help/treatment.
We can (in fact I think we should) debate what is meant by a spiritual cause, as well as a spiritual solution. I can see a world of difference between the statements “every problem has a spiritual cause” and “your problem is caused by your sin“, for instance. But spiritual, mental and physical approaches are not mutually exclusive. I don’t live with diabetes – it lives with me – but although I don’t treat hypos by memorising biblescriptures, that doesn’t mean the bible is no use to me.
Is that picture of the guy holding up the book like a teenage Twitter-geek doing a bad selfie Perry Noble himself?
If so, it’s the first picture I’ve seen of him where he wasn’t behind a pulpit with purpling face and neck tendons popping like he was on the can during a two-week bout of constipation.
“PROCLAIM HIM A GOD, DEMOSTHENES! PROCLAIM HIM A GOD!”
Courtesy of $200 grand to Result Source?
Adam Borsay wrote:
Say hello to Mary Baker Eddy.
(Or the “You Must Have a Secret Sin” or “DEMONS Under Every Bed” types.)
(Or the guy who wrote Malleus Malefacarium and kicked off The Burning Times.)
dee wrote:
Just like Scientology!
(Except there it’s “Dianetic” instead of “Nouthetic”…)
I was personally treated by Dr. Wilson, at Duke in 1978. It seemed the other doctors felt he was somewhat eccentric for his incorporating spirituality into his practice. Now he would probably be considered more mainstream! Nouthetic counseling is based on a false premise-that the Bible is sufficient to treat emotional problems and superior to other methods. Nonsense! When I am not on my meds, I crash so low that I feel no hope in God. On meds, I have the balance and clarity to delight in God and his creation. I did not realize that Noble did not include his own medical treatment in his book. As far as I am concerned, that shows cowardice and shame. What would he say to people like me who aren’t even able to comprehend the advise in his book until they are getting correct medical treatment? Serious depression should not be a competition to see who has more faith! (those on meds vs those who are not). If Noble took this issue seriously and mourned for those in serious pain, he would pull the book and revise it. Yes, it would be expensive, but what is the value of those who commit suicide because they can’t tough it out the same way Noble does according to his book ? For anyone who reads this post, depression is a serious illness that should be diagnosed and treated by a pychiatrist. Without treatment, the end result can be death. Ann
T.W.W. Outrage Porn of the Day. I could smell it coming.
@ Ken Avery:
Have you read Dr Duncan’s Holy Rage at the Spring? Talk about hate. Good night!
@ Ann:
Wow. You got expert care. Dr Wilson went on to become well respected. Today there are others in academic psychiatry due to his work. He passed away a few months ago. He used to attend a Christian medical group with which I am affiliated. His wife still attends
@ Adam Borsay:
Hi I agree with you about professional limits.
My problem is a culture where this man is readily accepted and emulated.
Did he donate portions of book sales to depression research?
Does he realize how much he’s setting himself up as a model to follow?
Does he realize how shaming he is by not disclosing his issues?
I fully respect you for not prescribing meds. But if you ever wrote a book on your life experiences, abusing your authority as a pastor by not being honest, and not advocating for the really suffering, I’ll come down harder
@ Marie2:
Continued.
Harder than a ton of bricks.
While I am happy to hear that you understand the difference in qualifications, it’s not clear to me that Mr. Noble does. Sounds like he’s exploiting a personal experience for profit.
And by the way, it’s a little ironic to read your post, after a discussion was made on another thread how many pastors are highly trained and specialized to attract attention to themselves in the midst of a problem in the church.
If Susie cream cheese parishioner is experiencing emotional issues about something, and tries to raise it to the pastors, many of them are trained to protect themselves and ultimately circle the wagons against her. Then they can of course complain about how she raised the issue and didn’t follow protocol.
Perhaps you don’t do that. But if you do feel attacked by people’s responses here, it might be more due to people reliving a pastor telling them to shut up and stop being in pain.
I agree that it’s good not to be overly critical but people need to be protected from dangerous people like this charlatan
@ Ken Avery:
No one here posts hate. And your saying so means that you need to confess and repent yourself. The bloggers here work very hard to only post the truth, the facts, and when, opinion, to label it opinion. Your accusation of posting hate is a libel.
@ Ken Avery:
Hi I love my pastor.
He’s not shilling badly written memoirs as a poster child for depression. Big difference.
After a car wreck that resulted in a broken neck, and surgery that took bone from my hip to fix the neck (so a rainy day is a pain in the neck and a pain in the rear), and nerve damage in my arm that hurt worse than anything else I had experienced and seemed resistant to medications, I was looking for an alternative. (The first couple of meds prescribed by the neurologist caused some life-long side effects.) A friend recommended that I try hypnosis and referred me to a Christian Christian (Disciples) psychologist. Hypnosis worked, not to remove all the pain, but to make it less and take it out of my immediate awareness, so that I am not aware of it unless I think about it!!!
And no one is exactly sure how the hypnosis works, but it does and it helps.
BTW, when I taught ethics to mental health professionals, one of the themes I encouraged them to keep in mind: “I am rarely if ever the best person to be counseling a particular client, but, even so, I may be able to help them to have a better understanding of themselves and their environment, and to function better than before. And I will be prepared to refer a client to another professional if I am unable to be effective in helping them.” Any thing else is unethical and likely due to narcissism.
Adam Borsay wrote:
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. This is practicing pastoral counseling, which is a very important part of every ministers job and it has my highest respect.
It’s the so-called ‘biblical counseling’ that I object to, where mental health professionals are anathema because the Bible provides the only ‘cure’ for mental illness. ‘Biblical’ counselors are no different than Christian Scientists when it comes to mental health.
Ken Avery wrote:
You mean, your personal healing process?
Uhm… How is that possible? The book hasn’t even been released yet. It won’t be available until Tuesday next week.
Is this a troll fail? 😉
Ken Avery wrote:
Not sure how you know that
Wow, Ken, get a grip. It’s about encouraging people to visit mental health professionals when necessary without being told it’s not mental illness but a ‘spiritual’ problem. No idea how you find that Satanic
It’s not hate, it’s criticism, something even Jesus and the Apostles engaged in.
I find it hard to distinguish between all the comments, but I agree somewhat with Adam Borsay, except for all problems are spiritual. I agree with Dee’s comments to him.
Let me apologize if I was unclear.
1) I, as a pastor, DO NOT counsel people with mental/emotional issues who are NOT also seeing a trained and licensed therapist/doctor. I am not a fan of nouethic(sp) counseling because I am convinced from experience and science that there are issues that are outside of the ability to just “change the way you think” to fix. It would be the height of irresponsibility to take my seminary training and pretend like it makes me capable of addressing chemical imbalances.
2) ALL issues are spiritual in nature. A tumor is the result of the fall. Biblical counseling does NOT heal a tumor. But biblical counseling can address the heart issue and the way we approach and confront the spiritual and emotional impacts of these real physical struggles. Meaning, if you had a tumor, I would gladly counsel you on spiritual matters, but I would not counsel someone with a tumor who was not also seeking appropriate medical help. This does not equate to the idea that “your problems are all because of unconfessed sin”. It simply means that while we have physical problems that can and should be addressed, our physical health can AND does impact our spiritual health and we can’t ignore that. My “Noble Defense” in this concept would be that he of course is only addressing spiritual aspects because he would hopefully not consider himself competent in addressing real physical issues.
3) A competent medical professional does not “start” with suggesting medication. When I said we are overly medicated, I simply meant that it is to easy to say, “I’m sad, can I have some medicine” and many doctors gladly write a script. I have actually witnessed this exact thing. They knew what they had to say to get a type of medicine that they wanted so they said it and got it. The Dr didn’t do any other sort of testing/evaluation.
4) Again, not having read anything by him at any point, if the is supposed to be completely autobiographical for the purpose of being an autobiography, leaving out the medication aspect of his story is wrong. If the book is about addressing the very real spiritual component within our individual struggles, utilizing “events” from his own experience as illustrative of some individual points does not necessitate a complete sharing of every detail in his own journey. Every author has a purpose when they set forth to write. If his purpose is to discuss pertinent spiritual issues within anxiety and depression then it doesn’t have to follow that he mentions he used medication. Clearly he supports using anti-depressants so I am struggling to believe that his purpose was to “shame” people who do utilize them for their very real problems.
@Dee – I could go on and on about my experiences with depression while at CLC. The answer to your question is no, none of the pastors ever attempted to talk me out of getting Christian counseling or taking medication. They made their hesitancy clear, but acknowledged it was my decision. If they didn’t, I would’ve left before I did. When I wrote a letter to C.J. awhile later about it, he had me come in and talk to two other pastors, who tried to talk me out of my beliefs in Christian psychology. Needless to say not successful.
@ Adam Borsay:
I appreciate your dialogue. Faith can be an important part of dealing with any medical issue, it can be a powerful aid in healing medical injuries/illnesses. It’s when people are told that faith is the ONLY remedy for them that religion does far more harmful than it is helpful.
@ SKIJ:
It appears to be an epic troll fail.
Speaking of depression…the New York Times has an article today about the problems of suicide at the Golden Gate Bridge.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/us/suicides-mounting-golden-gate-looks-to-add-a-safety-net.html?ref=us
Also a medication user. Go fluoxetine!
I found this whole story really depressing: firstly I’m sorry he’s been ill, it’s awful. Secondly that’s just the kind of book I can imagine myself having bought when I was younger & having a bad go with anxiety… to find out it’s not even true for him would have been really hurtful. Thirdly – what on earth could have convinced him to put this book out without the truth of his full range of treatment? That’s a terrible & very sad omission.
On behalf of mental health sufferers everywhere who have agonised over how to deal with their sufferings ‘correctly’ under God, I would urge him to man up & add a chapter telling the whole truth.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Hi thank you sooooo much for coming back and clarifying here.
My issue with that omission is that I’m not sure how many people will be able to access the website along with the book.
For example, I started reading a book by a well-known author about childhood sexual abuse. Justin Holcomb is probably a nice guy. I don’t read any evil intent in his leaving his own story out.
It’s just that people like me, and perhaps others on this blog (Daisy are you one of them?) have been super shamed by pastors and the church when trying to come out of a fog of denial and admit some things.
In AA (And I am not advocating AA for all alcoholics) they say that honesty is important for recovery.
By leaving that part of the story out, no matter what the intent of the book originally was – autobiographical, spiritual insights, I don’t care – he seems to be lumping it all together – he is indirectly shaming the people who might get the book on the advice of someone else, read it, and get completely frustrated that they did not get healed like he did.
There still is enormous backlash against honesty about these issues. Living a lie in church is not a picnic. I finally have found some people to confide in and that has made church a much richer spiritual experience.
I agree it’s not right to throw someone under the bus when they are trying to be helpful, but it’s unbelievably difficult to explain what extreme marginalization is like.
Unless the author can come out and explain why he left all of that out, perhaps he has a sequel that he can co-write with an expert, I can’t say I have any respect for him.
Rosie O’Donnell co-write an important book about auditory issues with an expert on the subject. Her son was diagnosed with Central Auditory Processing Disorder, and she wanted to get the word out about this issue, so she found someone to write the book.
Dan Allender, one of the pioneering authors about sexual abuse, mentions in a prologue to his 2008 version of his book, the wounded heart, which dates back to 1990, that both he and his wife are sexual abuse victims.
I will think a little more about how to convey the deep pain a person feels when a book does not mention the whole truth about the author, when the book is advertised as some deep experience.
Beakerj wrote:
YES!!!!!!!
Adam Borsay wrote:
Do you mind if I push back at you on this one? I am a nurse; my husband, father and brother are (were in the case of my dad who has passed away) doctors. My brother is an internist and my dad was a family doctor. My husband is a cardiologist.
They would never, ever, ever prescribe any sort of antidepressant, etc. without a careful workup, blood levels and history of the individual. In fact, you should see the “who’s in trouble” list that we get each month. The medical board issues this to tell us who is under review, losing their license, etc. Guess what gets picked up very quickly? The overuse of narcotics and psychotropic drugs.
Computers now monitor the type of practice a doctor has and the normative number of prescriptions of these medications for the average practitioner of that particular subspecialty. Any doctor prescribing lots of these medications are getting tagged up left and right.
Just like any street dealer, incompetent doctors can buy things illegally and pass them off to their patients. But those doctors usually get caught when unhappy patients start complaining or they show up in the ER with blood levels of medications through the roof. Or they screw up with famous people like Michael Jackson.
Today, doctors are even monitored for the time they spend with patients. They must list the minutes spent along with procedures, etc. Then, if a doctor is spending too much time or too little time for the given diagnosis, they are at risk of getting cited. And lots of them are these days.
Things have changed with the advent of electronic medical records. Indiscriminate use of psychotropic drugs is getting harder and harder to do for patients. The “frequent flyer”designation is now available to emergency rooms and doctors.
The practice of medicine shifts as more information becomes available. What might have been able to occur even a decade ago, is far more difficult now.
@ Adam Borsay:
Stressed out? Anxious? Overwhelmed? Good news–you’re not alone!No one ever said life was going to be easy. Between financial struggles, marital issues, health scares, and the regular, run-of-the-mill problems of everyday life, it’s easy to feel weighed down and trapped by your circumstances. In times like these, it’s tempting to just throw in the towel and quit. Well, don’t do it!Perry Noble has stood at the edge of the abyss himself, and in “Overwhelmed,” he shares the keys to unlocking the chains of anxiety and despair once and for all. Building on the premise that when we shift our focus from our circumstances to Christ, everything changes, Perry walks readers through a life-altering plan for overcoming stress, worry, depression, and anxiety so we can be free to enjoy the abundant, joy-filled lives we were created for.God knows we’re frustrated. He knows we’re tired. He knows we’re struggling. But He also knows how things are going to turn out. He is greater than anything you are going through . . . so don’t give up on God. After all, He’s never given up on you.(less)
Oh man. The whole “shift your focus” thing.
While there is some truth to this when you’re talking about normal, everyday bad moods, it’s far from a cure for true, medical anxiety or depression. At best it teaches you to get really good at cognitive dissonance–telling yourself that you should be feeling good because of your faith, when you actually feel bad. It’s far better to address the underlying issues, either through counseling and cognitive therapy, or a combo of cognitive therapy and medication.
I am thankful to God that we live in an age where medication for anxiety/depression is available. A friend of mine recently went through a traumatic experience and ended up taking anxiety medication in the aftermath. I have thanked God every day that that doctor and those meds were there to help her get through her situation. There are many such situations where medication is absolutely needed in conjunction with therapy.
Ken Avery wrote:
Let us know if we can recommend a doctor to prescribe some pills.
Instrument of Satan-ROFL
On a related topic, a FB friend recently recommended a Christian book about how all modern psychology and counseling is bad, and I got so upset that I had to leave the computer. It causes so much unnecessary pain to shun modern medicine in whatever form, physical or mental.
Erik wrote:
Exactly Eric. How did a chemical imbalance in my brain become a “spiritual issue” I call it biology.
@ NC Now:
When I was diagnosed with depression, my mom poopooed the whole thing, saying either 1) it’s my imagination or 2) that evil psychologist put the thoughts in my head. Of course my mom has been on antidepressants and anxiety medication for the last 15 years but denies that she is depressed.
The conversation about my depression and her complete and total dismissal of MY reality was the beginning of the end of our relationship. Of course I’m a slow learner and it took almost 30 years for me to totally cut her out of my life.
Beakerj wrote:
The wonder drug of the 20th century. I went on another newer medicine for a few years but went back after my insurance quit covering the new one. It still works great.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Adam, I think you have it mostly correct but your conviction hits a couple of snags that commenters here have delineated well.
I will add that spiritual challenges surround whatever difficulties people face. These challenges are not sins but quandaries. They have spiritual aspects. ISTM, you main job is helping people deal with the spiritual elements within the quandaries, giving them the tools needed to steer through spiritually intact. It sounds like you do that, but it is better to use the sin/guilt only where it belongs, not across the whole thing.
Re Noble’s book: Pastors who take on a mantle of expertise by writing books for those with mental disturbance/illness must be responsible. They need to be crystal clear (as you are here) that they are addressing only the spiritual issues surrounding the problem. They also must clearly state that most mental disturbances/illnesses are complex because humans are complex, and that hurting persons will almost certainly need to pursue several avenues for best resolution.
When this is not made clear, people will assume they are being given a godly path to healing, and they will pour themselves into it. Inevitably, they will gain only partial success and sometimes they will completely fail. This is awful for people who are already suffering deeply. The pastor who writes for such a result is irresponsible, arrogant and foolish.
But the worst is that it is glaringly unethical. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met over the years who will have nothing to do with Christianity because there is too much unethical behavior that passes unremarked inside the circles, types of behavior that is not tolerated by those who don’t believe.
Thus, on every level, Noble is causing damage. And for what? Why do Christ-followers try to pass stuff like this off? I am asking this seriously. I do not understand.
I am not on an anti-depressant at this time, but I am a big fan of them….
Look, for various problem I have, I take 13 tablets a day. Without them, I am sure I would no long be in this world.
We live in a time period in which we God has seen fit to allow medical science do wonders for many of us.
Prayer and miracles do happen, but you know, I think it is a miracle every morning I get up and tell my wife ” good morning.” Without the pills I take, I am sure, I’d be resting in Antioch Cemetery…
I will never understand how these people have no problem taking medicine for every part of the problem BUT the brain/mental issues. Seriously. Is there some magic force field around the brain that keeps it from harm that I am unaware of?
nmgirl wrote:
Me too, nmgirl. It took me til last winter to quit my relationship with my mother and I am now 57. 🙁
TO OUR READERS
Just in case you don’t know how “nuts” things are over at NewSpring, make sure you read Dr Duncan’s story.
http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/
Patrice wrote:
I liked this comment. i hadn’t thought of it that way before. I experienced a great deal of anxiety when my daughter was sick. Her illness went on a long time. If I were to look at the Bible-it does appear to be saying that I should be anxious for nothing. But I was and i would love to meet any parent who would not be anxious over a deathly sick child. Great thought!
dee wrote:
Another title to add to the Deebs (unless this one is duplicative) 🙂
@ Patrice:
Yes, I cut my mom off at 56 in 2012. I think this is another reason i love being in my 50s– I am SOOOO much smarter! ( and much less tolerant of bs)
Ken Avery wrote:
You’re probably just trolling, but in the off chance you’re real…
1). God is not the author of confusion.
2). Writing a book about depression in which you decry the use of medication while simultaneously blogging positively about your personal use of medication is confusing
LawProf wrote:
KEYBOARD ERROR…
You’re probably just trolling, but in the off chance you’re real…
1). God is not the author of confusion;
2). Writing a book about depression in which you decry the use of medication whilst simultaneously blogging positively about your personal use of medication is confusing indeed;
3). The Holy Spirit is God;
(You put 1 through 3 together and tell me your conclusion)
___
“This Certainly Isn’t Kansas, Toto…”
(Are we battling 501(c)3 ‘religious madness’, perhaps?)
hmmm…
If I pursue the demonic oppression/battling evil route, I am considered nutz.
If I am intent on presenting the possibility of medical treatment , I am considered un-biblical.
huh?
You pay your fare, you take your chances?
I have see kind folks that needed very bad spiritual beings removed from their lives. (Yuck! Folks, it ain’t pretty…)
I have also seen medical doctors give kind folks a fighting chance.
Whew!
…it pays to get the right council, it pays to get the right advice.
Yet, many churches today, no longer even do counseling, or give advice to church members because of liability issues, much less , in the name of Jesus, rebuke a demon spirit from a person’s life. Ha!
*
“Hey hey, every step of the way
Though your dreams can be real, don’t let them slip slide away,
Doesn’t matter at all, let them do as they will,
Someday you’ll hear them call for you
Oh yeah , for you,
When they call out your name say it loud and clear,
Come on, come on…” ~ Michael Shrieve
hmmm…
“After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
(For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. )
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he said to him,
“…Would you like to be made whole?”
The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steps down before me. Jesus said to him,
“Rise, take up your bed, and walk!”
And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked…”
[fast forward, to a later time…]
…And looking at them Jesus said, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible…”
(smiley face goes here)
Don’t let this nameless faceless ‘religious madness’ freak you out, bind you up, and steal all your stuff…
(tear)
Sopy
___
contemplation?: (video clip) Kansas – “Dust in the Wind?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qxSwJC3Ly0
Intermission: Schubert Symphony.8 Muti／Wiener Philharmoniker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDl7MAs96Zk
;~)
—
Critique = Hate. That’s just where we are today.
If you’re looking for something to be thankful for: We already have a Newspring here in Columbia, SC. It has 5 services. It’s 10 minutes from my house. It’s growing like crazy. If you don’t have one (yet) you really can’t imagine what it’s like (just read pajamapages.com). The word on the street is that we’re getting a new Newspring in Lexington, SC. It will be 10 minutes from my house in the other direction.
Count your blessings. Me? I’m OVERWHELMED.
@ Sopwith:
Thank you Sopy, as always, for your wonderful humor. I hope no one takes offense, but this video just about sums up my experience, in terms of the triviality, without the humor, of seeing pastors in my old church, or seeing a Christian counselor, and trying to reply my experiences to them. Instant, long-winded monologues that don’t add anything beneficial to my spiritual health.
Just want those precious minutes back. I would rather have just watched SNL reruns. Much more therapeutic.
“PlaySeek Back 5 SecondsSeek Forward 5 SecondsVolume UpVolume DownMuteNext VideoOpen Hotkey Menu
Ed Glosser, Trivial Psychic: Limited Usefulness
Ed’s psychic readings are limited in their usefulness. Find more Saturday Night Live videos on Yahoo Screen.”
https://screen.yahoo.com/ed-glosser-trivial-psychic-limited-000000664.html
OOps trying to “RELAY” not reply. Well must have been a Freudian slip, because there was never much time to reply to what they had said to me, because they were so busy talking, it took up most of the appointment.
Steven Troy wrote:
Soon you will be surrounded and you will be assimilated 🙂
JeffT wrote:
I took the vaccine when I was a kid!
It is truly amazing the people who I know who go there. A friend told me this week of someone he knows who started going there because his kids love it. This is very common. Perry just geared up to raise $40 million to reach 100,000 members here in SC. I hope for the country’s sake that we only export peaches and not Newsprings in the future.
@ dee:
I would have felt the same way. There is nothing wrong with being scared spit-less. It would be bizarre to feel any other way. I don’t know what be careful or anxious for nothing means in the bible, but it cannot be stretched to mean some weird emotional dissociation from reality. I don’t know how you got through all that with your daughter. Bless you.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
What does this mean?
@ LawProf:
He’s just a troll. The book isn’t even out yet.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Sorry, but the size of a church does not automatically indicate anything.
JeffT wrote:
Great comment! That is a frightening scenario.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
This IS the biggest lie thrust on the church by the church growth movement.
Steven Troy wrote:
Numbers mean nothing. Possibly a rear-end warming a seat. Hopefully some numbers mean a relationship with their Creator.
Patrice wrote:
Me three. My mother believes she is one of the godliest people on the planet, but my relationship with her brought only a lifetime of unbearable grief and self-loathing. I had to disconnect from her. Fortunately, therapy and meds have helped me find a modicum of peace in life.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
“Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”
You’re right, numbers don’t lie.
I am so sorry if you are misunderstanding my point. I tried to reiterate in another post…but again….The physical realities that we suffer(lupus, cancer, chemical imbalances) need to ABSOLUTELY be addressed with appropriate MEDICAL care. This is not mutually exclusive from an understanding that we ARE spiritual creatures and all things that effect us will have a quotient of spiritual issues that can and should be addressed. How we face these issues is the heart of what I want to convey when I say dealing with them spiritually. Facing issues “well” is an important part of the spirit filled life. Facing them well does not CURE them, but how we process, deal with and communicate about our very real problems is a big deal. That, in my opinion, is the counselor role of a pastor. Not to “fix” your problems, but to seek a Christ centered hope and attitude within the midst of the storm. @ nmgirl:
@ Deb:
Dan Youngerling was on here a week or two ago defending Mars Hill. He’s trolling, I assume. How could he possibly be in Mars Hill (WA) and Newspring (SC) at the same time?
Hester wrote:
You’d be surprised at what Perry Noble can do down here in SC!
dee wrote:
Hi!!!
That’s so cool that you are a nurse. An extremely admirable profession.
Is it possible that the over-prescribing can differ by region, or it could be a slow change in this country, like maybe what was possible a year ago is much harder now? I do hope so. I do hope that things change rapidly. Pretty scary stuff.
Is it ok to give a tiny push to your push back?
My chiropractor was just recently complaining about hearing about over-prescribed narcotics.
I admire the attentiveness of your local community in its use of computers to monitor and track people down.
I just looked up more info and found this article:
http://www.hhnmag.com/display/HHN-news-article.dhtml?dcrPath=/templatedata/HF_Common/NewsArticle/data/HHN/Daily/2014/Feb/020414-article-Emily-Friedman-precription-drugs
@ dee:
I keep thinking about what tiny temporal creatures we are. It’s impossible for creatures like us not to worry when things go very wrong.
It’s weird, we are asked to live our lives with the conviction of things unseen (some things never seen in our complete lifetimes). We are asked to maintain confidence in what we hope for, not in what we hope will happen here, but at the end, after all. Jesus recognized the impossibility of it when he said that only a mustard-seed-sized amount of faith could move a mountain.
“Be anxious for nothing.” I remember agonizing over that, too. Now I see the statement as the hyperbole of the Ancient Mid-East. Yah, God will make all things well *in the end* and we exercise faith byreminding ourselves of it. But pain and death is all around us and nothing’s guaranteed and we love so very very deeply! That hyperbole is an ideal and we don’t get meals out an ideal.
Chemical support through an awful time is sheer grace. I’m so glad you had it.
As someone else mentioned, I also would be dead without chemical supports. They have nothing to do with my spiritual condition which is in good enough shape to use them with gratitude. w00t
@ Steven Troy:
@ Dan Youngerling:
statistics is the process of summarizing numbers, like totals! And, as a former teacher of statistics, I can tell you that the only adage is correct: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
The fact that you have a circus tent full of suckers does not mean that you have not cheated them. Cf. P. T. Barnum. Give them a show and they will pay for it and think it was meaningful. And South Carolinians are probably, as a population, more gullible than any state population in the United States, except possibly Texas where I live. After all, they are the decendents of the people who pushed for 50 years to start the Civil War and then complained when, after they fired the first shots, they were blamed for it.
@ Adam Borsay:
Amen!!!
I totally agree with you, here.
This “distinguished author” could easily remedy the problem that his book raises by doing the following:
Halting the presses to add an appropriate preface that admits his use of drugs while writing the book.
Enlist the help of a co-author for a sequel, to offer help for people who want to manage their spiritual life well, but need some medical assistance in the form of professional therapy, appropriate medicines, etc.
Announce, and have it printed on the book’s cover, that a portion of the book’s sales are being donated to programs like Merck’s to provide low-cost anti-depressants to the poor and disadvantaged. I thought that Merck had one. I am sure that something like that exists somewhere.
I just feel it is a calloused attempt to make money off an extremely vulnerable group.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Is Jesus using it?
Or is it and all the other megas using Jesus as a means to an end? The end being, building their own kingdoms at the expense of the gospel.
@ nmgirl:
@ lemonaidfizz:
It is sad but deep-down, I feel free for the first time ever. I’m no longer picking myself up after yet another trampling, and trying to find ways to enter in, and trying to find yet another way to be firm but kind. Plus, at long last, a number of nasty critical cycles are slowing to a stop in my head.
Yep, being in my 50’s is the best time of my life. Hah
Deebs, I am in moderation!
@ Mara:
Sorry folks. I know he’s a troll and remember him defending Driscoll. And I know we aren’t supposed to feed them.
But that bit about Jesus using Newspring… Really? Which is which? Who is using whom?
@ Marie2:
FWIW:
http://www.merckhelps.com/
MERCK HELPS
At Merck, we believe that no one should go without the medicines or vaccines they need. That is why the Company provides its medicines and adult vaccines for free to people who do not have prescription drug or health insurance coverage and who, without our assistance, cannot afford their Merck medicine and vaccines. This is consistent with Merck’s long-held values and traditions of putting patients first.
{tangent}
It’s possible that “Ken Avery”, “Dan Youngerling” et al are simply Poe-ing: parodying the output of real-life groupies and fanboys that fawn over celebrity church CEO’s. It’s also possible that they are just trolls.
One alternative hypotheses is that they are part-human, part-spambot. That is, some folks out there are steadily writing tweets and they have some kind of email software that sends them out at random when a blog like TWW publishes a post containing certain keywords (for instance, “Merry Global” or “Park Fiscal”). The “email software” role might be undertaken by them, of course, if they have the time.
Evidence? Well, by definition, a hypothesis is not yet proved or disproved, but it is consistent with the fact that the posts above by “Avery” and “Youngerling” don’t actually address any particular issue in either the thread or the comments. They just contain generic fulminations against so-called h8 and, in the case of “Avery”, a comment about a book that (as Serving Weans in Japan pointed out) hasn’t actually been published as of today. So that particular tweet of “Avery’s” was sent out early by mistake… They look, in other words, akin to covering fire in the military: it’s not aimed at anything or anyone in particular, rather its purpose is to keep opposing troops pinned down.
Personally, I wouldn’t bother replying. If they’re genuine satirists, they won’t mind.
{/tangent}
Hester wrote:
See my jaw-droppingly brilliant post here when it comes out of moderation.
I say jaw-droppingly brilliant; though I concede the possibility it’s just plain silly.
An Attorney wrote:
I, too – great minds think alike!
Perhaps we could have some kind of “moderation waiting room” where we get to eat chocolate and/or share a nice real ale.
That would be good.
Adam Borsay wrote:
So you are fine with sins of omission?
I was, ironically, in the opposite position you described lower in your post.
I got tired of “pill popping” because the pills were not diminishing the depression (and no, my depression was not caused by any fault of my own or via sin), but the mental health professionals I saw were more keen on assigning me on pills than doing talk therapy or handling my issues in non-medicated ways.
(Yes, I understand the psychiatrists are predominantly about pill prescribing and not doing talk therapy, but I was stunned by one or two of the ones I saw regularly who were hostile against my trying to talk about my issues with them. I also saw a psychologist for two of the years.)
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
There could be too much Newspring chatter at TWW. PN could have ordered it shut down.
Adam Borsay wrote:
And P.S. on that:
I don’t think preachers should be writing books about mental health issues anyway. They are not qualified.
IMO, they should not even attempt to write them from a “spiritual perspective” about depression or whatever such topic, since that is inadequate to the person reading the book who may have a physical or mental health reason for their illness.
Preachers should not be writing diet and health books a la Rick Warren.
They should not be writing books as quasi experts on auto repair, on how to perm hair, on washing machine repair, etc, unless they actually did go to school for that stuff and are part time employed at auto repair or whatever.
These guys are just writing books on whatever topics to make a buck off people.
@ Marie2:
It is not only my local community. It is most of the US these days. Look into electronic records to see what is happening. Even a decade ago, they were doing this in Texas and in New Mexico and it is getting more and more strict.
Chiropractors cannot prescribe medications like antibiotics or pain killers. Their primary therapies are manipulation of joints and nutritional supplements. There has been a long standing war between MDs and chiropractors as to who does it better. I prefer to think of it as they each do the things they are supposed/allowed to do better-be they MDs or chiropractors.
I was discussing the prescription habits of physicians. Many of those cited overdoses were due to a deliberate misusage of properly prescribed medications. Case in point. I had a knee replacement. Narcotics make me sick so I rarely take them, even when I am in pain. I had a lady who helped me with my house. I discovered her snitching my untouched narcotics.
Teenagers often steal their parents medications and use them at parties and sell them on the street. Oxycontin is worth a great deal on the street these days.
Finally, the methadone overdosages are bound to happen, not matter how careful the clinic is. They are dealing with people with a serious history of illegal drug abuse. Most physicians do not handle methadone administration to drug addicts. That is done in specialty clinic usually supervised by boarded substance abuse physicians.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’ll make the hot chocolate….Hubby won’t give up his Guinness that easily….But I am with you in that waiting room, in terms of being eager to hear what you have to say….
@ dee:
Not this their advice was bad – for people to see mental health professionals, but for years I saw mental health professionals, and none of them got to the root, the actual cause, of my depression.
I am not anti-medication (meds do work well for some people), but pills did not really work for me… but the shrinks I saw were a little too keen to keep throwing pills at me, even after I told them on many an occasion the meds weren’t working. They would just insist on tinkering with the dosage.
I didn’t break free of depression until two, three years ago, I scoured the internet for free info by other shrinks about the issues I struggled with, the ones that were causing my depression.
In my case, depression may be biological in part (many in my family tree have it), but there were other non-bio factors at play as well, but the shrinks I saw did not pick up on the actual cause of my depression.
@ dee:
Hi ok, sounds great!!
My chiropractor is totally awesome at what he does, and he recommends the use of anti-depressants, and pain meds, when warranted. He does not prescribe them, though. He just affirms and validates people who say they have gotten help from that route.
He is unlike other chiropractors who are totally against the use of med’s, except in super rare cases.
I am glad to hear that it is becoming more and more difficult for doc’s to over-prescribe.
I think it still can be difficult to get people on the same page at times. My close friend got some temporary liver damage from too much Tylenol. The different doctors prescribing it were not on the same page.
I have heard that this has become so much of a problem, that many drugs have less Tylenol in them, which is great.
Thank you for the positive news. It sounds like things could be quite different now than they were possibly 3 years ago, which should be good news to Adam.
Just wondering how anyone here views acupuncture for pain relief. My son has had great results after two visits.
Hope this isn’t too much of a detour from the topic of medication.
__
Sop-Box: “Wings ta Fly, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Marie2 ,
HowDee!
You are away from SGM.
You experience(s) there are NOT unique.
You are NOT alone.
Don’t buy into the lies anymore! Sure.
Go into your brain and “in the name of Jesus”., throw away da trash. [if you haven’t already] (repeat until dat foul bad smelling stuff goes clean away…Woosh!
—–> (sop-box) :
Maybe, go find (if possible) a soup kitchen, a refuge, a shelter, a senior citizen center, a food pantry, ect…(for example, maybe you have more suggestions, hint, hint ) and “give ta others who can NOT possibly repay you…”
huh?
—> you’ll feel ‘mucho’ bedder in no time!
What?
…dat cool glass of water (…in da name of Jesus) sure does taste good to a parched soul, in the desert air, ya think?
You Matter.
(pray’in 4 U)
“I got deze here wings ta fly,fly,
Cuz Jesus, You have made ‘me’ alive!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLtT86pauWI
(grin)
Your ‘love’ Jesus, sayz, I’m alive!
(tears)
Au pied de la Croix pour l’amour des enfants ,
ATB
Sopy
—
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Maybe the back of his book should read instead,
The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
Ken Avery wrote:
I call Sock Puppet.
doubleplusgood doubleplusduckspeak.
Sopwith wrote:
Merci beaucoup, Monsier Sopwith!!
Sounds awesome!
I will ask Jesus to clean even of that trash out, and thank you so much for those prayers!!
My husband is in super poor health at the moment….But I have done a great deal of volunteer work in the past year, and I look forward to returning to it.
Thank you for the prayers and the lovely reminders. Your advice was the kindest I have received on these blogs.
Ann wrote:
Would Result Source refund their best-seller juicing fee?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The “biblical counseling” tendency to chalk up depression and other such problems as being “spiritual” sounds as though they are saying depression, anxiety attacks, etc, are imaginary or products of delusion.
So to me, it’s also a bit reminiscent of – I think it’s Hinduism?- that teaches all suffering is an illusion.
I once read something in a book or a blog about a conversation with a Christian teacher (I don’t remember a teacher of what) and a class of Hindu students. The topic was something like, “If I pour this scalding hot water on some guy’s head, would he feel pain.”
One Hindu student said no, the pain would not be real, so go ahead and pour the hot water on some guy’s head in class.
The instructor heated up boiling water and went to that student (the one who said all pain is an illusion) and asked him, “May I pour the boiling water on your head instead” and the guy said, “no.” Because he knew he would feel it, it would be painful, and pain is real.
My ex didn’t believe in depression and anxiety, when I told him I dealt with both and had for years. I got the incredibly demeaning, dismissive lecture from him that each problem was “only in my head” (my imagination).
I see the nouthetic counselors as being like that. They seem to view depression and other things as being figments of people’s imaginations, or trifling things that can be shooed away with a little dab of repentance or prayer.
JeffT wrote:
Or Scientologists.
Mara wrote:
Doesn’t that fall under the Second Commandment?
Steven Troy wrote:
Ranging salvo.
First round long, second round short.
Correct and fire for effect.
As someone who has suffered from depression since late adolescence, I have one thing to say – Oh sh-t, here we go again! When will people ever learn? Depression is nothing to tinker around with. What I find even more disturbing is the fact that Noble has suffered from depression himself, needed the meds, so he knows! But he probably didn’t fully realize until he actually needed the meds, which was when he was writing the book. So he allowed whatever reason, pride, money, deadline pressure, maybe, to rule, and published a book that should never have been published. Stuff like this makes it so hard for those of us who suffer from depression – I myself thought for years if I could just have more faith I would no longer suffer. And others told me that I just needed to love Jesus more.
Another article by Warren Throckmorton on a new letter put out at Mars Hill. Rob Smith has fascinating info in comments, on the joys of Spiritualese:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/27/leadership-board-at-mars-hill-church/
Victorious wrote:
It didn’t help my pain but did a great job on some intestinal issues i was having at the time. I work with a girl who swears by it and her body is a wreck after years of competitive sports.
Adam Borsay wrote:
That’s ironic, because changing the way I think about myself, life, making mistakes, and how to deal with conflict and so on, freed me from depression.
But my depression was very real, it was not “all in my head” (as in imaginary).
I partially agree with you under your point 4.
I tried medications, and they didn’t work for me, and the psychiatrists (and one therapist and a psychologist or two) I saw were not too fond of really getting to the root of my problem and finding out why I was depressed.
Maybe they were just lazy and thought tossing pills at me was the easiest route for them, it required little effort on their part.
I am not anti-medication, though. I want to stress that.
I am not condemning their use, or anyone who takes them, but some people who have depression should be prepared that the pills do not always work, even if you are on them for months and try different brands, different dosages.
You may benefit from Cognitive behavioral therapy. Your depression maybe be caused by more than biological problems – so pills may not be able to help or solve things.
Some of the thought making processes and ways I viewed myself and life and so on are unfortunately deeply ingrained in a lot of mainstream Christian teaching, books, and sermons.
Preachers are perpetuating some of the very views that keep people stuck in depression, who had the same problems I did, at least. I had to re-interpret and re-consider certain Bible verses, had to reflect that maybe how I had been raised to interpret them was incorrect, I had to change and re-evaluate how I viewed Jesus Christ, etc.
burntnorton wrote:
Well said burnt norton! When I recall how desperately I tried to earn God’s favor to heal me from anxiety & depression through prayer, being in the word, fasting, serving, tithing, you guys know the drill, it makes me sick. I didn’t have to suffer despair, self contempt, anxiety and depression for years, but I did, because I submitted myself to a pastor who railed from the pulpit and in private counseling sessions that I wasn’t submitting myself to the authority of the scriptures, because if I I was, according to him, I wouldn’t be in such deep despair. He also had a hard on about Christians taking anti depressants. I know I am singing the same song that others here already shared/ sang, nothing new about my story.
In my case It wasn’t a spiritual issue, not that I was perfect, far from it.
I was molested the first time at 5 years old, my mother drank, so she was checked out, my father beat her & my siblings, chased us with guns in our scary basement, telling us he was going to kill us.
When he left a handgun under the front seat of our car and my mom took the car with friends to a parade the little boy I sat next to found the gun thought it was a toy and shot his twin brother in the head. I was 8 years old, my mom was in shock, and screamed: ” Gail why didn’t you tell me he your dad’s gun?” It doesn’t take an expert to understand that I needed professional help, but pastor who knew my story, was skeptical about therapists.
I wasn’t diagnosed with PTSD till I was in my mid 40′s. I will be 60 in a few months and it makes my blood boil that I could have gotten help earlier.
I might have shared my story here before, sorry to be redundant. I am furious that he writes a book and doesn’t tell the truth about taking medication. I ache for the people who will read it and wait for God to heal them and when He doesn’t feel it is their fault fir not having enough faith or obedience or whatever hoop pastor is telling the bruised to jump through. Shame on Perry Noble.
@ Daisy:
Correction, I meant your point 3, not 4, where you said,
“3) A competent medical professional does not “start” with suggesting medication. When I said we are overly medicated, I simply meant that it is to easy to say, “I’m sad, can I have some medicine” and many doctors gladly write a script.”
-I partially agree with that. Some doctors want to toss pills at people rather than roll their sleeves up, do the hard work, and help someone figure out why they are depressed, if their depression is not responding to the meds.
The shrinks I saw just wanted to toss more pills at me, or try less, or try new pills, etc.
Former CLC’er wrote:
Is this the same guy who wears eye glasses? He should be told to stop wearing glasses and just pray for perfect eye sight.
@ Eagle:
I’ve seen this forest discussed in several documentaries the last few years:
Desperate Japanese head to ‘suicide forest’
(AOKIGAHARA FOREST, Japan)
Marie2 wrote:
I don’t recall having that issue with any preachers in person, but I did get those reactions from Christian lay persons, and in books and TV sermons by Christians.
In my prior years of visiting blogs or forums for Christians who have depression, I’ve come across many Christians who have been shamed or blamed for having mental health problems and who were told by their preachers (or lay persons at their churches) that seeing a doctor or using meds is wrong.
“Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded” is by a Christian psychiatrist who has additional examples of Christians with anxiety or depression who have been dressed down for seeing docs and using meds or discouraged from using either one by their pastors.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Thanks for this Adam, it is incredibly important that people clearly make these distinctions & publicly. Those who are suffering from depression/anxiety/despair don’t have the energy to do this for themselves whilst in the midst of their condition.
nmgirl wrote:
Thank you, nmgirl! I appreciate that feedback.
This blog needs a warning label. Something like “We failed at life so have nothing better to do than tear down others, and your NEXT.
nmgirl wrote:
I’ve arrived there in my 40s. I wish I had known this stuff back in my teens.
JeffT wrote:
Do the New Spring church buildings look like big cubes? Call Worf.
Nancy wrote:
I find that the Word of Faith (Prosperity Gospel / Wealth and Health) Christians are like that. They say they are not, but they really are.
If you have a headache, for example, you can’t say, “I have a headache.” You’re supposed to pretend as though you don’t have one, and you should not take aspirin for it. If you claim to have a headache, you are “taking ownership of it,” and making it come to pass, or something.
You can’t admit to having problems in life around these types of people. You’re supposed to only utter “positive confessions.”
I find that really weird. Go look at the Psalms sometime, or the book of Ecclesiastes, both are steeped in cynicism, negativity, pain, and they don’t sugar coat things or deny pain.
Daisy wrote:
I experienced this at a cultic church I attended, pastor proclaimed: “Jesus was never sick a day in his life”. This may or may not be so, though I doubt it, he died of physical processes on the cross, I know at least that much. He taught that some people never get sick, those who are truly in touch with the power of God, they don’t die, they just get called home.
Any admission of problem or weakness or sin around him was a sign that you were not worthy of pastor. When I told him in a private meeting that he should be more honest about his own struggles, “confess your sins one to another”, he told me “That’s only for people with sin problems.”
The last straw for us at that church was when he taught a sermon on how Job was only put in the Bible to show us how wrong JOB’S view of God was and how his sickness was his fault because he failed to make positive confessions.
Adam Borsay wrote:
That sort of depends. I’ve seen biblical counselors who actually victim-blame.
I read in one book by one counselor like this that he was seeing a 35 yr old woman who had been raped around ten yrs of age by her father.
He basically told her that she was in sin, was partially at fault for the rape, and needed to repent of it. This sort of thinking is common among some of the biblical counseling blogs and pages I’ve seen.
Some of your Neo-Calvinist guys also get into this odd mindset that is similar, which says, because the Bible declares all people are sinners, it makes two parties in a crime equally at fault or culpable, which is a bunch of malarky.
If someone mugs me and steals my purse, I am not at fault or in any way to blame for that, even though we are both sinners in the grand scheme of things. The fact is, in the hypothetical mugging itself I am discussing, I was 100% victim, the mugger was 100% at fault.
Some of the Neo Calvinists and biblical counselors get too much into the faulting the victim stuff, where instead of acknowledging the victim’s pain and justifiable anger, they get hit over the head with the messages not to get or stay bitter and to forgive the jerk who abused them.
I can see how forgiving an abuser can eventually be helpful to the abused person (it can help them let go of past trauma and move on with life), but not in the way this concept is is pushed on victims by some types of Christians.
dee wrote:
Funny thing about the Bible Dee, in my experience I’ve found that if it’s not tempered with reason and common sense it can also strip you of your humanity.
Beth Duncan wrote:
Sounds very similar to my experience with depression, anxiety, and every other problem or heartache I’ve ever had in life. Really, it’s not limited to only depression. Many Christians, regardless of the problem you confide in them about (job loss, death in your family, some physical problem, financial issue, it could be anything).
And nine times out of ten, you will get a response such as, “Trust Jesus more!,” “Jesus is sufficient for all your needs,” “Just pray more,” “Be sure to read your Bible daily,” “Volunteer at a soup kitchen,” “Think of others more and how you can serve them, less about yourself,” “Have more faith.” 🙄
None of that stuff is helpful when you are hurting or dealing with a problem, but hey!, that doesn’t stop those wacky Christians from quoting those things at you anyway.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Thanks Adam. I can resonate with that, and I appreciate you helping me understand you more clearly.
One of my posts above is in moderation.
LawProf wrote:
What a totally backwards take on the book of Job! Your ex pastor was actually taking the attitude of Job’s comforters, who were corrected by God by the end of the book for having been in error.
One of the very points, a major one, of that book is that all the bad stuff that happened to Job was not Job’s fault in any way, shape, or form!
Holy moly your ex preacher was totally incompetent. Can he even read and comprehend cooking directions on a box of mac and cheese?
dee wrote:
You’re correct. Most would. The fact is that a lot of people who have a mental illness self-medicate with drugs or alcohol when the illness goes undiagnosed or untreated. A lot of people with addictive disorders actually have a comorbid mental illness that caused them to start seeking substances in the first place, leading to the addictive disorder.
Anyway. I’m not sure why some Christians get so freaked out and stigmatize mental illness. It’s a disease that can be treated just like any other chronic disorder, like diabetes or hypertension.
I take medication for major depressive disorder (and I went to a Christian counselor who helped me decide to take them). My life is so much better now, and I attribute it to finally having enough serotonin. And I thank God for that!
Not ashamed here.
Daisy wrote:
Pastor E was simply unbelievable.
E was the one who I told TWW about in another post who said from the pulpit that the poor are not children of God because King David, in Psalms 37:25, had said he’d never seen the righteous forsaken nor their children begging for bread.
E also told the youth group that hell was in the molten core of the Earth and that as proof people had taken microphones to the edge of volcanos and recorded the screams of the damned.
As I related above, E told me in a private meeting, pastor-to-elder, that confessing sins was “only for people with sin problems” and thus he had no need to confess anything. When I told another elder what pastor had said in private, Pastor E told the other elder I was a total liar, had made it all up, was an “accuser of the brethren”, and a DSM-IV psychopath or sociopath. I went up to Pastor E after the meeting and said “But E, you completely lied in there.” E responded, I never lie, I thank God I have no problem with lying.” I turned on my heel and walked away, as I was going, E said in a sing-songy mocking voice “Hey M, I can help you with that problem you have with lying.” We never went back. A few months later he texted me and said he wanted to go to lunch together, that he’d really enjoyed our friendship and wanted to renew it.” I told him “Sure, so long as you tell me what you meant by ‘I never lie, I thank God…’.” Never heard back from him.
E was possibly the most evil man I’ve ever met, but God knows the heart, not me.
Daisy wrote:
Isn’t that making Magick? (Crowley spelling deliberate.)
“Abracadabra” = “I Speak and It Is So.”
If you pretend something bad doesn’t exist, it’ll go away?
JeffT wrote:
“Resistance is Futile! Prepare to be Assimilated!”
lemonaidfizz wrote:
Tip: If someone tells you how Godly they are — they’re NOT!
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Uh, Dan, weren’t you on here last week defending Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill?
@ Sean:
Hi Sean
I am glad to see that you are reading this blog. I knew you were upset over the Catanzaro situation by the last email that you sent me. Since you believed that those two videos constituted proof of his innocence, I decided to post them, WITHOUT commentary, and allow others to reach their own conclusions. I did this because I know that you are a true believer and you believed in those videos.
You may not appreciate this but it was my attempt to extend an olive branch in spite of my differences with you in this matter.
@ Adam Borsay:
I appreciate the kind manner with which you address us. I do understand from where you are coming. One of the nicest things that a pastor did for us when my daughter was sick was to show up at 6AM one morning when she was having another MRI. This was about a year into her illness.
So many people forget how cancer just isn’t a simple scary episode in which you land in an ER, have heroic surgery and then go home and all is well. It can linger over years and each day one wonders if this will be the day that it returns.
Many years later, I still remember that pastor showing up on a cold and dark Dallas morning to give us a hug. Pastors can do so much by just walking with the members as they struggle. That meant more to me than any sermon he ever preached.
Dis wrote:
Well stated.Dis wrote:
Thank you so much for sharing this with us. I think the more of us who speak out, the more others will be encouraged to get the help they need.
@ Adam Borsay:
Adam, thanks for that. I would likely be glad to go to you for spiritual counseling, even with PTSD and major depression.
Adam Borsay wrote:
I love this. Thank you!
@ dee:
Clearly, you HAVE failed at life. As indicated by you and your family’s extensive medical qualifications upthread. I mean really, it’s not like nurses and cardiologists have to, like, work hard or learn stuff or anything like that.
😉
lemonaidfizz wrote:
Same. I haven’t cut her out of my life, yet, but I keep her at arms length. It’s nuts in my mid-forties to be afraid of my mother.
It was Jeanette Altes’ comments on TWW about her narcissistic mother that finally gave me my “aha” moment. Hanging out with you all has been my therapy.
Sean wrote:
Actually, it is we survived and thrived DESPITE what life threw at us!!
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
I see you out and about the internet. It is obvious that you have been reading Challies. Why in the world don’t you spend more time over there?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Go to You Tube and look up the video/song “Magic” by the Cars as you read this post.
Yes, WoFers believe your words have power and you can speak over your wallet, tell it to be fat in the name of Jesus, and you will come into a lot of wealth. That sort of thing.
Word of Faith and Positive Confession
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
The Bible tells Christians to call out false teaching and teachers. You refer to that as “outrage porn?”
@ Daisy:
He’s channeling Tim Challies who has been roundly panned for his latest post on “outrage porn.” I have suggested that he hang around those sites. He might get some respect there.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
I am glad that what i said helped. I remember when I read some articles on narcissistic mothers and that ‘aha’ moment when it felt like they were specifically writing about my mother. As others, I have cut off from her physically – haven’t seen or talked to her on almost 5 1/2 years. But…cutting her off mentally – getting her out of my head – has been a little bit more difficult (not that the decision to cut her off was not!)
I’m glad you are getting more clarity. As a friend has said to me often, “You can only work from where you are, not from where you wish you were.” The first step of working from where I am required me to get honest about toxic familial relationships. Ugh. 🙂
__
“I Rejoice In Following Your Statutes As One Who Rejoices In Great Riches.” ~ King David
hmmm…
Miss Daisy ,
HowDee!
Respectfully, if you would continue considering others as you would yourself, many of your certain ‘concerns’ would be greatly improved. I am happy to see you are getting much stronger. It shows in your words. Thank-You for taking the time to share them.
*
“I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people, if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land…” ~ God Almighty, appearing to King Solomon upon finishing the house of the Lord, in Jerusalem.
*
hmmm…
How much more will He graciously hear & answer, since we have a high priest seated at His right hand?
What?
“Until now you have asked nothing in my name, – ask that your joy may be made full! ” ~Jesus
Blessings!
Sopy
___
devotional: “Hear My Cry, Eternal One” from Psalm 141.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCRRKnJvsB0
—
Adam Borsay wrote:
Aaaaand you lost me.
Ann wrote:
Amen, sister!
I’ve never understood why some people act like the Bible was written as an astronomy/geology/biology textbook, psychology manual, etc.
And yet for the most part, Christians who insist on this approach draw the line at the medical field. I don’t know of many Christians who would prefer that their surgeons be trained using the Bible instead of Gray’s Anatomy…
lemonaidfizz wrote:
Me four. It’s been almost ten years now, but my mother’s refusal to deal w/ her own mental health issues (combined w/ stalking behavior & addictions) led me to cut contact. Oddly enough, I was also called a “tool of the devil” because I didn’t put up with it like a Good Daughter (TM) should. :(. I protected my family, & did the right thing–yet even now, when a fellow believer hears that I have no contact with my mother, they gasp in horror, & automatically assume/accuse me of wrongdoing & unforgiveness. So.tired.of.that.
@ Daisy:
Reminds me of this article that crossed my FB today, in which a WoFer blames her nightmares and nasty emails on the fact that Catholics are talking about Mary during Lent. (I wonder if she knows that Catholics pretty much do that all year…)
http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/the-plumb-line/20067-when-jezebel-s-witchcraft-keeps-you-up-at-night
Hester wrote:
“Christian hateth Mary whom God kissed in Galilee…”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Lepanto”
Mr.H wrote:
Chaplain Mike over at Internet Monk theorized once that this was fallout from the Age of Reason and Industrial Revolution. That the attitude shift from those led to the Bible being viewed as “a Spiritual Engineering Manual” and checklist instead of the Old, Old Stories of God and Man. (Check, check, check, check, check…)
Adam Borsay wrote:
The former situation certainly lends it to pastoral counseling. But I am not sure what you can do with the second. For years I took care of a husband with a neurodegenerative disease that was caused by a defective gene. We were unaware that he was at risk. There were and are no treatments and it was very difficult to watch a good man, Sunday school superintendent and competent professional regress into an angry child who once threw a temper tantrum because the guy at the ice cream stand appeared to put more ice cream in my cone than his.
He did nothing to cause his disease; it was lurking in his genes from conception. And I don’t feel that God would use him to punish me for any reason.
So there we were. Years of misery alleviated only by antidepressants and counseling for me and neuroleptics for him that reduced his rages to one or two a day from as many as a dozen.
I don’t know what Christian counseling could have offered. We do live in a fallen world and sometimes life just sucks. I am glad no one added to the burden by suggesting that either my husband or I had somehow caused our situation.
Daisy wrote:
Don’t need to. I’m old enough to remember seeing that video on MTV.
Though my favorite Cars video remains “Yhu Might Think”.
Wow. Just like The Secret, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!
@ Taylor Joy:
Hi Taylor Joy, and the 3 others.
Ty 4 being here and sharing. I hear you, Taylor Joy, about the crazy horror on someone’s face when I’ve shared a little about my relationships with my parents. ..things are surprisingly better with my Mom now, I get along great with her, after many prayers and talks with close friends who have been through similar issues.
I started crying a few years back when I thought about the possibility that my Dad might have some Asperger’s, BPD, or just basic narcissism. I felt horrible for how angry I’ve been with him over the years. Just felt super sorry for him that he has been so lost and wanting to connect with others and didn’t know how.
Not to heap any condemnation for your cutting your parents off. The majority of my close friends have done so. But they accept and love me as their oddball friend. Glad to see the support you are getting here.
Blessings to you all, and anyone else who has cut his or her Mom or Dad or both off. I have no doubt that that took great courage, but was necessary.
Steven Troy wrote:
We have a branch in Greenville, too–though the venue they wanted to build on is an industrial research area utilized by Clemson U. and Clemson was not happy about NewSpring’s plans. Right now they’re meeting at the TD Convention Center.
@ Hester: and it clearly illustrates just how far out on the fringe Charisma actually is (has been for years and years).
JeffT wrote:
😉 Since Fiscal added the Gospel According to St Poodle the Fluffy to his own version of Holy Writ.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thank you again, HUG! I think this nails it.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Now that made me giggle. I do have to admit whenever I will hear best sellers list with a pastor on it’s byline I will wonder that same thing….
When our family went through the mess at Countryside I was not prepared for the fallout emotionally on myself and the kids. My husband is a rock, he was solid through it, and still is today. I however spent a couple of years avoiding life, dealing with unrelenting panic attacks, I did not drive or leave the home much. While I have always needed antidepressants this was a new low for me. My kids were hurting and I was so hurt that I could not help them deal. I feel tremendous guilt for that today. I still am working on forgiving myself for taking them with us, a recent personal attack made me face that. I could not be even CLOSE to better without the meds I need. I am thinking this guy seems to be a smarmy b@#$&*d who will use his own situation to turn a profit(not prophet). I am sad because many of our church members suffer in silence to avoid being judged. Or there is always that well meaning person who believes your illness is just demonic oppression and they make it their mission to pray that devil off you. Had this one happen myself, sigh. Nevermind that I had a very real diagnosis, and a real fear of humans. No this lady barged up to me after a message and declared my impending freedom from that demon of fear. Insert BIG sigh here. This is why we need a real conversation started about those living with the realities of mental illness. And Mr. Noble has dropped the ball and walked away from what could have been a gamechanging play.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL! It was a busy afternoon. Sorry to keep y'all waiting. 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
HUG..how does this work? The reason why I ask is that many parts of evangelicalism are anti-intellectual in many ways. I'm trying to understand this issue more…
Marsha wrote:
It is stories like yours that cause me to long for heaven. I am so, so sorry that both you and your husband had to endure such an illness. you are a very strong woman.
@ Taylor Joy:
I have known many people who have had to cut off toxic parents. I know it must have been so hard for you. I know of one family in which the father molested his own children. The pastors in that church told the now adult child that he was obligated to honor that parent and care for him (the father was a pillar of the church). Finally, the young man told off the pastors and walked away from the church.
@ Tikatu:
We are massing troops on the border of Wake County…
rebeccalynn wrote:
I believe you and believe in you.
I believe in the strength you say that your husband has, and I believe that you have more strength in you than you ever dreamed.
The road to healing can take longer than we like. And sometimes we feel the bumps send us backwards. But God is able to restore what the locust have eaten. (Joel 2:25)
And now for the truth ~
Perry Noble is on antidepressants.
Benny Hinn wears glasses.
Kenneth Copeland cancelled a speaking tour because of a bad back.
Every faith healer down through time has seen a doctor, and they die of medical issues just like the rest of us.
The high ramalama of the WOF movement died of heart disease. His successor did, too.
When you see these self-help books, realize they are just trying to make a buck off you.
It’s time we let all these celebrity preachers know we’re onto them, and blogs like this one a making huge strides in that arena.
Keep up the good work. 🙂
@ Sabrae:
BAM! Great comment.
And while I’m on my soapbox ~
The celebrity preachers pushing this stuff include;
Tammy Faye Baker, who died of cancer after years of medical treatment.
Paul Crouch, who had a pacemaker for years, recently kicked the bucket.
Jan Crouch has had surgery and treatment for cancer, then claimed miraculous healing for that.
If there is any justice in this world, the cause of her cancer will be found to be pink wig toxicity.
Before praying for healing, let’s pray for discernment. That alone will sidestep most of these clowns.
If you need medicine, take the medicine, and NEVER let anyone tell you it’s wrong to do so.
Our Father has filled this world with medicinal plants for a reason, and that’s called a blessing.
And by the way, Luke was a physician. 🙂
And lastly, I will finish up by boring you with my own personal story ~
I had been diagnosed with stage 4 cervical and uterine cancer, and later, my ovaries got in on the act as well.
I prayed before and after my surgeries, and I had peace throughout, knowing the Lord was right there with me through it all.
And that’s His promise to us ~ Not to remove the trial and difficulty, but to go through it with us.
He was with me in that storm, but make no mistake, I went through that storm.
Had I listened for one second to these faith healers and their phony schtick, I wouldn’t be here right now to bore you with this.
The Bible promises us trials and tribulations, but it also promises our Lord and Savior will never leave us. Not for one second.
So, the moral of my story is seek out the medical help you need and pray for His peace, comfort and guidance as you heal.
I’m done now, I promise. 🙂
God Bless.
Sabrae wrote:
Please do not “be done.” We are glad that you are here. I am so sorry for your difficult struggle.Sabrae wrote:
This is how I approached my daughter’s illness. I did not “claim” her healing. I just asked God to walk with us through it. He was there during some really, really tough days. May it be the same for you.
Adam Borsay wrote:
Hi Adam,
I am still struggling with what you wrote, because many celebrity pastors cannot separate an autobiography from advice. I hope I did not hurt you yesterday with my comments. It just brought up many issues in my life for me to still deal with, that very few pastors in my area are able to take your wonderful attitude about separation of duties.
Thank you for stopping by, and I hope we see more of you soon!!!
@ Marie2:
Part 1 of a wonderful autobiography, chock full of great advice:
http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/autobiography/page42.htm
My list of virtues continued at first but twelve; but a Quaker friend having kindly informed me that I was generally thought proud, that my pride showed itself frequently in conversation, that I was not content with being in the right when discussing any point, but was overbearing and rather insolent, of which he convinced me by mentioning several instances, I determined endeavoring to cure myself, if I could, of this vice or folly among the rest, and I added Humility to my list, giving an extensive meaning to the word.
I cannot boast of much success in acquiring the reality of this virtue, but I had a good deal with regard to the appearance of it. I made it a rule to forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiments of others, and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbid myself, agreeably to the old laws of our Junto, the use of every word or expression in the language that imported a fixed opinion, such as certainly, undoubtedly, etc., and I adopted, instead of them, I conceive, I apprehend, or I imagine a thing to be so or so, or it so appears to me at present. When another asserted something that I thought an error, I denied myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly and of showing immediately some absurdity in his proposition; and in answering, I began by observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appeared or seemed to me some difference, etc. I soon found the advantage of this charge in my manner; the conversations I engaged in went on more pleasantly.
@ Marie2:
Part 2:
The modest way in which I proposed my opinions procured them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily prevailed with other to give up their mistakes and join with me when I happened to be in the right.
And this mode, which I at first put on with some violence to natural inclination, became at length so easy, and so habitual to me, that perhaps for these fifty years past no one has ever heard a dogmatical expression escape me. And to this habit (after my character of integrity) I think it principally owing that I had early so much weight with my fellow-citizens when I proposed new institutions, or alterations in the old, and so much influence in public councils when I became a member; for I was but a bad speaker, never eloquent, subject to much hesitation in my choice of words, hardly correct in language, and yet I generally carried my points.
In reality, there is, perhaps, no one of our natural passions so hard to subdue as pride. Disguise it, struggle with it, beat it down, stifle it, mortify it as much as one pleases, it is still alive, and will every now and then peep out and show itself; you will see it, perhaps, often in this history; for, even if I could conceive that I had completely overcome it, I should probably be proud of my humility.
I can’t even begin to add to the really, really good comments here, but then again, I take evil psych drugs so I may be biased. I do have to wonder if some of the anti-medication attitude among some Christians is perhaps based on seeing psychiatry as “godless competition” that will lead the faithful away from God? This is something I’ve noted in Scientology, which sees psychiatry as competition for its services. (Remember, Scientology is a religion and a spiritual technology, kind of like being a dessert and a floor wax.)
I’d also say it’s wrong of Perry Noble to publish a book and not tell the whole truth about his recovery. I have no doubt that he took solace in whatever religious rituals he employed (prayer, Bible reading, etc.), but he needs to be clear that medication helped. That admission could be of *so much benefit* to people who are leery of going for psychiatric help. There was a time when hearing that a prominent preacher was under medical treatment for depression might have overcome some of my prejudices against medication. (It wasn’t until I was in the hospital and the doctor flatly read me the riot act about my condition and prognosis that I snapped out of the wrong thinking I was engaged in.)
Marie2 wrote:
What a writer and thinker; if only I could do either half that well.
LawProf wrote:
I’m with you, lol! And to think that Mr. Benjamin Franklin flunked math class in 8th grade (google AH/HD and BF sometime – the AD/HD crowd has adopted him posthumously, lol) and therefore was not able to go to seminary, so he had to be a printer’s devil instead, and work with his hands for a while.
Kinda makes college over-rated sometimes, if a school of hard knocks can produce someone like that.
On the other hand he probably just had good genes…college can be wonderful to knock some responsibility into young people’s lives….I wish we had more apprenticeship opportunities for our young folk who can’t afford college….that would be a bit better than retail….Although retail can be a character builder of a different sort, lol.
Marie2 wrote:
Even though I teach at one, I agree w/ you, college can be overrated. I’ve heard that printer’s apprenticeship referred to as the poor boy’s university. Worked for Mark Twain as well.
mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
YES!!! Another SNL fan!! Awesome throwback video!
https://screen.yahoo.com/shimmer-floor-wax-000000185.html
I have to admit that I had a doctor read me the riot act, too, before “succumbing” to taking those evil drugs, too, haha. So glad I did that I feel a thousand times better.
Thank you so much for coming by and adding to the conversation.
LawProf wrote:
Wow! Did you teach at a college, AND go to an SGM-influenced church?
God must be building a super-duper mansion in heaven for you, lol. I give you a great deal of credit for attempting to be with those folks. It’s been about 20 years since my SGM experience, and I only have just now experienced the blogs to start clearing that embedded junk out of my head, so you deserve a very nice life both now, and in the afterlife.
Marie2 wrote:
Some schools are making efforts toward that to adapt to a changing economy.
http://tinyurl.com/n2uwfrr
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Hooray, hooray, hooray@
3 cheers for Texas, lol!
Kinda ironic, in a way, because some Texas school districts have been disparaged for having a Creationism in the schools debate.
Glad to hear that they are doing this, nice news!
Marie2 wrote:
Marie, I deserve no reward. In all honesty I really think that being sucked into that “SGM” was my own dang fault and pride in not seeing the obvious and thinking I could work things out and be the Voice of Reason–ha ha! By the way, it wasn’t technically an SGM, but might as well have been, it was run by two former SGM leaders (who’d been removed from leadership there for undisclosed reasons) and run precisely according to the SGM model: trendy clothing and hari styles, praise band, starry-eyed 20-something “yes men” as elders, prophecy mic, care goups, brutal oppression, undercurrents of whispering always in the background, confidences shared in the C-groups later used against people, scripture twisting, Heb 13:17 repeatedly hammered from the pulipt.
Marie2 wrote:
You and me both. It is NOT possible to have a progressive and pluralistic democracy without a thriving and vibrant middle class. And a thriving middle class requires a solid manufacturing base. Ours has been systematically looted, gutted and shipped off-shore since the 80s.
I think that in this context the whole higher ‘education’ shtick as a cure-all begins to take on the mythic proportions of Homer’s Chimera. What next? Do we require at least an associate’s degree in business admin. before you can sling tortillas at Taco Belle?
@ LawProf:
I have no experience whatsoever with SGM, so I was (perhaps naively) surprised to read your description of “the SGM model” and see that it is almost exactly the same as Acts 29 (with which I have much experience). No wonder Mahaney and SGM fit in so well with the Piper-Driscoll-TGC crowd…
@ Marie2:
Yes, Dominionism is alive and well in Texas, unfortunately.
I was so encouraged when I read that article last year. So, I knew I could point you to at least one link with some good news. I’m certain there must be similar stories in school districts across the country, but I haven’t read about them yet.
@ Mara:
Thank you Mara for the affirmation and the support. So many of you wonderful folks supported me and my family when are story came out. And you all continue to encourage me. I really feel blessed to have stumbled upon this site. Until then I did not know I wasn’t alone in my mess. The more I read the more enraged I got, not only had this been done to me but to many others. I know feel betrayed again by this kind of book. The fact that a pastor is trying to profit on his struggle with depression and then be out front with the truth of that struggle is a slap in the face of many of us. We all know it is not just easy to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and suck it all up. I personally would not have made it without good counseling and care. It was essential for me to get better. My story happened long before I talked to the Deebs. I need time to get well enough to talk openly about it. I really am glad for everyone’s compassion and support when my story was published, I can only hope that others will seek professional help and medications if they need it. And not buy this snake oil salesman’s book.
dee wrote:
Dee, you’ve put me in permanent moderation. It might be 24 hours before you allow a comment, and then some days you don’t allow any comment. Rather saps my motivation to post here. Daisy and Eagle, have asked me the question two or three times and been frustrated with no response. Actually, I have responded but it goes right into moderation and they might not see it when and if it is published. Same thing for BeakerJ.
( I don’t follow Challies very closely but I read a whole lot of other blogs.)
Nancy wrote:
Interferon can depress the heck out of you. Tough stuff to deal with; major treatment for Hep C. If you can survive the year of interferon you may get rid of the Hep C. ( Hope the cancer is going away Nance. Sen)
Sopwith wrote:
I’m not quite sure I follow.
Mr.H wrote:
I didn’t know that was the Acts 29 model, but that doesn’t surprise me. I don’t think the similarities are a coincidence at all. The groups seem very incestuous and the top leaders go to the same conferences, endorse each others’ books, book each other for conferences with hefty honoraria, probably meet on the side a lot slap each others’ backs and laugh about their imbecilic parishoners, probably dine out together at 3 star restaurants and go on the same luxury cruises together.
One thing’s for sure: anyone who attacks one of them better be prepared to fend off all of them.
Sabrae wrote:
Isn’t there a part of the New Testament where Paul writes someone (Timothy maybe?) to drink some wine to settle his upset stomach?
Sabrae wrote:
I enjoyed reading your posts, and I hope you write more 🙂
I am sorry about your cancer.
(off topic)
Deb and Dee, a few months ago you did a post about what happens to infants after they die (and the mentally impaired)?
That was a topic in a sermon this week by TV preacher David Jeremiah. He is selling a book about the topic of Heaven, and that is one of the other topics he discusses in the sermons about heaven.
I don’t normally agree with or trust most TV preachers, and I don’t even agree with Jeremiah on everything, but he is (IMO) one of the more sober, down- to- earth ones.
I tried to find a specific page about his comments about the topic, or a copy of the sermon online. I didn’t find anything yesterday, but just a few moments ago, I did find this (I think this is the same sermon, not sure):
What About The Children?
—–
That’s hosted on his site. There might be a copy on You Tube.
From one of the pages on his site:
What About Children?
In what way do we have to be like children to get into heaven?
Is there a specific age of accountability mentioned in the Bible?
What about children lost through miscarriages or abortions?
How old will children be in heaven?
Daisy wrote:
1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18228203-overwhelmed#other_reviews
Does anyone know who Josh Skinner is?
He got an advanced copy of the book, and well, uh, his words speak for themselves:
“How Noble interacts with the Old Testament narratives as a whole is misguided. They are used as a sort of sermon illustration for how to be not overwhelmed. This is shown in one statement like, “The biggest lesson we can learn from Daniel’s life is that correct thinking leads to correct actions.” Noble’s interpretation of the focus of Daniel and Job is a type of pragmatic moralism that fits in well with the prevailing motif of Western church culture, what Smith refers to as Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.
Also, Noble’s interaction with indwelling sin and a person’s identity would seem to preclude an understanding of the believer as simul lustus et peccator, that is simultaneously just and sinner. In fairness, nowhere in the book does he explicitly reject this, but his language seems to indicate an inherent opposition to this understanding of the believers experience. This rejection logically leads to the Gospel being viewed as a ticket in, useful to become saved but rather unnecessary once one is a believer. The Gospel becomes superfluous in the ongoing life of the believer.
I was also troubled with Noble’s recounting of a story of an elderly lady who was offended by him early in his ministry. Noble had spoken of a woman’s water breaking from the pulpit and this older saint was offended that he had done so. Noble attributes this to the fact that people are often fake in churches and don’t want to deal with anything that is messy. He never seems to consider the fact that it might have more to do with understanding what is appropriate in a corporate worship setting or a mixed setting or a multi-generational setting and what is not. This is, of course, the man who later would utilize AC/DC’s Highway to Hell in an Easter worship service and see no problem with it even when confronted by other pastors. If only he would have listened to this elderly saint rather than judge and mock, he might not have slid so far down into the pits of cultural engagement means sacrilege.
“
Next part:
”
Beyond that, Noble shows his anti-intellectual, experience driven bias. “Somehow church has become a place where we don’t want to hear about real issues or relevant struggles or sins we’ve been dealing with all week long. We’d rather hear obscure history lessons, Greek and Hebrew word training, and lots of quotes from dead white guys.”
This false dichotomy of theology vs application, engaging the head vs engaging the heart, creeds vs deeds, depth vs relevance is pervasive in our Christian sub-culture and leads to the sheep not being equipped to live a life of faith. It leads to disciple-less churches, a problem even Bill Hybells has recognized and sought to rectify. Noble would do well to take a cue from this pioneer of seeker-sensitive and add some meat to the milk so that his flock might grow in their faith and be able to stand on their own. Keeping people ignorant has always been a way to control and pastors do not seek to exercise this type of abusive control over their flocks.
After spending pages using his church’s numerical growth, Noble then offers this very troubling statement:
“As our attendance increased and awareness about our church spread, it became obvious that some people who called themselves Christians didn’t like what we were doing or how we were doing it. As a result, a flurry of criticism and personal attacks came my way.”
This is disconcerting for a number of reasons. First off, there is the implicit understanding that numerical growth equals proof of Gospel fidelity. Take a trip to Houston and check out Reliant Stadium on a Sunday morning and this will prove to be an unnecessary conclusion. For Noble, obviously if people are coming it has to be of God. This Gospel of William James that bows itself to the idols of pragmatism and numbers is false and dangerous. To see how numbers are not equal to fidelity just look at the earthly ministry of Jesus and how many times the masses abandoned Him.
Secondly, it is a bad place to be where you can honestly argue in your heart that someone who criticizes you and disagrees with you is an unbeliever. Those who “called themselves Christians” dared to question the great Perry Noble. This is cult-logic and I hope that this is not how he truly thinks or operates.(In fairness, I have no reason to believe he does. His language in these situations does concern me however.)
“
Last part….Just including what I thought was a very thorough attempt at giving a fair read. There were some positive comments that I skipped…..The author of the review said that there were a few good points, at first….similar to the book’s description, but it does make me wonder if Perry Noble has studied theology much, just curious……
“Chapter 26 is a great example of the good and bad of this books. The points he makes about God’s love are priceless and encouraging and Scriptural, but his use of Daniel’s narrative like a fabel to get there is unhelpful and causes Daniel to be the focus, not Christ. This way of using Scripture to make a point always puts a bad taste in my mouth.
Noble’s interaction with the Apostle John is ridiculous. It is built on conjecture and the desire to make points rather than actually engaging the text properly. Noble imagines some things and presents them as unassailable fact. John gave himself a nickname, Peter and Andrew were fishermen because they were rejected, John was “religious”, that is self-righteous. (Noble follows the contemporary antithesis between religion and faith/relationship) Noble knows this because he is able to see the intentions behind John’s actions even though the Scriptures do not reveal them. This may make for entertaining reading and great stories, but it is not necessarily based on Scripture. At all. It is always dangerous to reach beyond what God’s word says in order to make a point and Noble makes a habit of this. Sometimes the point is great, but that doesn’t excuse his handling of the Scriptures, which is poor at many points.
This book offers some very practical helps on dealing with an overwhelmed life and is wildly encouraging at parts (especially how he addresses depression), but there are too many negatives to be able to recommend it. If you are looking for a good book on how to deal with an overwhelmed life I would suggest Crazy Busy by Kevin DeYoung.
I received an ARC of this book through NetGalley for review purposes.
“
LawProf wrote:
I have a friend who speaks at churches (essentially conducting free bible studies) as part of his ministry. He mentioned to me once that Acts 29 churches are impossible to get into (to speak as a guest) unless you yourself are an Acts 29 member.
Mr.H wrote:
Hallmark of a cult. Better for him, anyway, I’d feel like taking about 10 showers after I went into such a place anyway.
Talking about depression is in a sense too broad a canvas. There are all types, from the everyday blues, to a build-up of serious problems caused by specific factors, to cases where there seems to be no logical reason for the condition in a person. So every case should be judged on its individual parameters, which should exclude a “one size fits all” prescription.
Three books that I have found very helpful are:
“Masks of Melancholy”, John White
“A Lifting Up For The Downcast”, Matthew Bridges, Puritan Paperbacks
“Spiritual Depression”, D M Lloyd-Jones
White as a Christian psychiatrist made the point in a roundabout way that writers can as individuals either overemphasise the spiritual or the physiological when talking about the condition. He gave a series of accounts of individuals he had known to illustrate the point that the root cause of the condition had varied, as had its treatment: medication, just talking, or in one case stopping trying to please God by earning forgiveness and just accepting God’s grace.
Wow!!! unbelievable, lots of negative comments, devilish attacks, outright lies on a fellow brother in Christ. By people that “clam” to be Christians. Btw…….Thousands of people are meeting Jesus, saved marriages, so much positive life change and discipleship happening at NewSpring Church. I am sure satin is proud of you all for attacking this man. Satin always uses religious people to attack a work of God. Congratulations you’ve done it! So sad 🙁 fellow “Christians”
Blup wrote:
🙂
Why are you people always so aggressive?
@ Blup:
Did you read the article? It is a critique of his book and how what he writes does or does not line up with what he actually did in real life. The book could cause real harm to someone(s) who might need medical help but does not seek it because of what Perry leaves out of the book! It is a just critique and could save lives.
Blup
I take it that you have red the horrendous account in Holy Rage at the Spring Part 2 on Pajama Pages?
http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/
Or is that one a bit too uncomfortable?
How do you know that “thousands” of people are meeting Jesus and marriages being saved?” Personal research or assumptions?
I do not “clam” to be a Christian; I am one. I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior but that apparently is not enough for some folks. As for Satin-I never use it. I like wash and wear clothing.
dee wrote:
Beat me to it, and with style! 🙂
I read somewhere that Noble is supposed to start a several weeks long sermons series at his church based off his “Overwhelmed” book.
South Carolina Megachurch Pastor Perry Noble to Address Depression, Mental Illness in ‘Overwhelmed’ Sermon Series
Kolya wrote:
There’s a similar book, called
Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?: Helping (Not Hurting) Those with Emotional Difficulties by Dwight L. Carlson.
And that book is excellent. I especially think preachers need to read it.
Carlson’s book also discusses anxiety. Some anxiety has a biological basis, needs medication, and cannot be conquered from reading Bible verses about trusting Jesus, or having more faith in God, as most preachers wrongly assume.
I used to have clinical depression.
Having depression is not the same thing as having “every day blues” or “feeling sad.” That is what gives rise to a lot of confusion or ignorant comments by preachers.
A lot of preachers who write or preach on the topic have not suffered long term, serious, clinical depression. They assume when a Christian (who does have clinical depression) comes to them for help, that they are only experiencing “every day” sadness.
I wish folks would stop using the word “depression” to describe every day sadness, it might help to stop some of the confusion.
Most preachers know that you can “get over” everyday, common, sadness within a few days, or from weeks or watching a funny movie. So, they often tell clinical depression sufferers to just hold on a few days, or read a few Bible verses.
These types of preachers do not understand the emotional pain of clinical depression (which can last literally decades, day in and day out) until it happens to them.
You cannot snap out of depression by prayer, reading the Bible, or thinking positive thoughts, or helping other people in a homeless shelter.
Having depression is not self-pity or self-absorption, either, which preachers commonly assume it to be, so they scold, shame, and chide depression sufferers for those things.
Blup wrote:
Was that a troll? I don’t totally “clam” (clam? LOL) to be a Christian. I’m kinda Christian, kinda agnostic.
Clam? Can I say I am lobstering to be a Christian, or sharking to be a Christian? 😆
Satin? Does he rule over the fabric swatches in Heck? I bet he has minions named Silk and Burlap, too.
I don’t care for Perry Noble, by the way, especially after reading how he implicitly allowed his church staff to stalk and severely harass a former church member (Duncan) both IRL and online.
I also don’t like Noble’s arrogant attitude, and his fondness for seeker friendly, shallow gimmicks to get rear ends into the seats and his church.