I used to go away for weeks in a state of confusion. Albert Einstein link
Update 3/25: Thanks to Ted S. we have the Piper video.
Update 3/26 Please see an update placed in context under the Twitter discussion with Stephen Altrogge.
Update 3/25: We have provided a correction on Carl Trueman under #1 of TGC members who support CJ Mahaney. He is not a member but closely aligned and served on a committee that proclaimed CJ Mahaney fit for ministry. We have links…
Update 3/25 Stephen Altrogge claims that he is not a pastor with SGM.However, he was a pastor with SGM and now appear to work for SGM if his biography posted at SGM Music is correct link. By the way-that bio states he is a pastor at SGM. One things is certain: he has been an SGM pastor.
Last Friday, we discussed a post in which in which Janet Mefferd was identified by Lyall Mercer, a public relations executive, as a possible enemy from inside the church. You can read about this here. Dr Warren Throckmorton covered an interesting aspect of this situation in the following post. I want to add some interesting coincidences to this whole situation after his post. Why is Charisma News Claiming Credit for an Article About Mark Driscoll Authored by Lyall Mercer? Warren Throckmorton link.
Christian News Service admits that the post which mentioned Meffferd is a paid post and that it was not written by Russ Jones. Eventually they removed the entire post. Now comes the Charisma News part.
Charisma News copied the release, placed Bill Roberts name on it as a byline and published it on their website with a modified title, finally ending up with Charisma News staff as a byline.”
To me, it is disappointing that Charisma would publish a complete press release under another writer’s byline. Press releases should be labeled as such so that readers can evaluate the credibility of the “news” in the release. In this case, if the article was properly labeled, readers would know that the author of the “article” cites himself as an expert and paid to have it originally published.
Why is Charisma News stubbornly keeping up a paid PR piece written by a PR executive which unfairly labels Janet Mefferd as an "enemy?"
Christian News Service commendably removed the article when confronted with the facts. (I wrote this two hours ago. However, at 6 PM today, CNS has reposted the entire article link. Shame on them. Their supposed "news service" is merely a repository for paid press releases. They are in it for the money and make no bones about it. Maybe we should all get together and throw in a few dollars and submit a press release saying that we think CNS is a tool?
Charisma News not only kept up the post but removed all comments from the post (most of them critical). Why in the world would they run an article that has received such negative reviews?
Sovereign Grace Ministries enters the fray.
Todd Wilhelm at Thou Art the Man calls attention to an SGM post written by Mark Prater and posted on the SGM website The Surprise Retirement Of A Professional Athlete Is Proof That Our Words Matter which was published on March 12, 2014. Todd says:
Prater, in the longstanding tradition of C.J. Mahaney, chooses to use an athlete to lend credence to the gospelly-centered lesson which he would like the SGM faithful to take to heart. It seems Rashard Mendenhall has chosen to retire from the NFL while in the prime of his career. Mendenhall lists several reasons for the decision; what appears to me to be one of the minor ones, mean-spirited criticism via public internet forums, is the one Prater seizes upon to make his case that our words should always be positive, building people up, not tearing them down, and giving grace to those who hear them.
As many of readers know, SGM has been under fire for allegations of child sex abuse cover up. There is a trial looming in the near future.
…the criminal sexual abuse trial of Nate Morales. This trial threatens to bring to the light of day a host of ugly facts that will not reflect positively on SGM leadership; therefore a preemptive strike, cautioning the rank and file against negative speech, seems like a good strategic maneuver to limit, as much as possible, damaging truths being spread across social media.
Wilhelm points out some significant portions of Prater's post. It is basically a tirade against blogging. Blogging is one way in which the problems at SGM were revealed.
As I read Rashard’s article, I was reminded again that our words matter, especially for Christians. The words that we use whether spoken or written matter to God. Jesus said it this way in Matthew 12:36 “I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak.” Words matter so much to God that He will ask us to give an account for them on that Day!
But do we lose that biblical perspective when we communicate our words, as Rashard says, “behind our computers and smartphones?” Living as Christians in a virtual world, we must be vigilant not to be careless with our words, especially when we are sitting behind our computers, or tweeting our thoughts from our phones. In fact, the words we use as Christians are to be distinctly different from the “bold coarseness” culture that Rashard describes on the Internet. Scripture says our words are to build others up, not tear them down as found in passages like Ephesians 4:29, “Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.” Our words matter because God uses them to give grace to those who hear.
Rashard’s counter-NFL-culture decision to retire at 26 is an opportunity for all of us to consider whether the words we use are counter-cultural. Do the words we use, whether spoken, written, posted or tweeted build others up? Do they give grace to the hearer?
SGM and Janet Mefferd
Update 3/26: I have been talking with Stephen offline. I believe that he is sorry that this exchange happened. I think he has learned much from this exchange and so have I. So, let's cut him some slack.
It is significant that two major ministries, Mars Hill and SGM, are currently under fire. On Saturday, I became aware of a Twitter comment directed toward Janet Mefferd by Stephen Altrogge. Here are a few screen shots. Please observe the entire exchange @Janet Mefferd.
Some of our long time readers might recognize Stephen's last name. He is the son of Mark Altrogge, a long time SGM pastor. Stephen is SGM born and raised and is now an SGM pastor. I decided to visit his blog and learned something even more interesting. Stephen blogs with his Dad and Barnabas Piper, son of John Piper, at The Blazing Center.
I had a couple of readers email me when they recognized his name. I let them know that I was not going to let SGM Part 2: Juniors Rising get away without being challenged. As I said on Twitter, words can be front loaded and I happen to know that my definition of grace and the SGM definition of grace would have a rather different emphasis.
CJ Mahaney: embattled leader of SGM and John Piper were "appointed" by the "gospel ™ crowd" to be the mentor of Mark Driscoll a number of years ago.
For those of you who are new to all things Mark Driscoll, he has been getting into hot water for many years. We wrote a post in 2009 titled: Smacking Down Mark Driscoll. John MacArthur was critical of Driscoll back then. Remember that.
Why did you single out Driscoll and connect him with the “sex challenges”? Why call him out publicly? He has already repented of his unguarded speech, and he is being privately disciplined by men like John Piper and C. J. Mahaney, who keep him accountable. Did you consult them before calling Driscoll out by name? If the problem is as serious as you claim, why haven’t they said something publicly about it?
Driscoll has been repenting for years.
If you read the above post, it appears that Driscoll was publicly repenting even back then. Now remember this post was written in 2009 when you read this next part. A few years would take us back to 2006. It appears that Mark has been repenting for 8 years with little discernible change. Some would say he kept getting worse.
Mark did indeed express regret a few years ago over the reputation his tongue has earned him. Yet no substantive change is observable. Just a few weeks ago, in an angry diatribe leveled at men in his congregation, Driscoll once again threw in a totally unnecessary expletive. A few weeks before that, he made a public mockery of Ecclesiastes 9:10 (something he has done repeatedly), by making a joke of it on national television.
John Piper loves Mark Driscoll's theology
There is a very well known video with John Piper gushing about how much he "loves" Mark Driscoll's theology. But, of course, it has been "driscollized." However, you can read a transcript of the video at this website.
“I love Mark Driscoll’s theology! That’s bottom line for me. We stand together on glorious truths about God, that’s HUGE to me.”
It is also interesting to note that Piper appears to love CJ Mahaney's theology as well. You can read about this here. He went to speak at Mahaney's new church. Remember, this is after the Second Amended Lawsuit and CJ Mahaney's relocation to the safety of Louisville. Here is a quote.
"I chose to be here. No one forced me. I snatched the opportunity to be here. I love SGM and what God is doing through it across the country and the world."
Charisma and charismatics
It is interesting to note that Charisma News particularly emphasizes charismatic theology. Hillsong and SGM have identified with the charismatic movement. Mark Driscoll and John Piper have been very supportive of charismatics. (Aside: don't misunderstand me. This is NOT a statement on charismatics. My husband became a Christian in one such group. I am merely pointing out potential allegiances.)
The John MacArthur Strange Fire Conference and Mark Driscoll
The Wartburg Watch wrote a couple of posts on the controversial Strange Fire Conference. In John MacArthur Miffs Off Charismatics While Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald Crash the Party will give you a number of links to the story. John MacArthur held a conference in which he discussed his concerns about the charismatic movement. Mark Driscoll, in disagreement with John MacArthur, pulled a "driscoll" in which he crashed the conference attempting to give out copies of his book which support charismatic theology. You cannot make this stuff up.
Here are a few thoughts to ponder.
1. SGM and CJ Mahaney have long received unbelievable support from most of the perceived gospelly leaders at The Gospel Coalition. These would include Kevin DeYoung, Al Mohler, John Piper, Carl Trueman, Justin Taylor, and many, many others. Update 3/25- Correection: Carl Trueman, who is not an official member of TGC but is closely tied to TGC link (put his name into the search engine) served on a committee which exonerated CJ Mahaney link.
Just recently, Denny Burk tweeted to Zac Hoag that those who support the victims in the SGM disaster are bottom feeders. (PS ,there is no Ephesians 3:31)
2. SGM and CJ Mahaney have had close and friendly contact with Mark Driscoll (I assume a mentor is a friend.)
3. John Piper has gone out of his way to defend both CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll.
4. There have been no public statements from any of these leaders that they no longer support their BFFs.
5. A few members of TGC did not like Driscoll's book, Real Marriage. One member, Carl Trueman supports CJ Mahaney but does not support Driscoll, at least for now.
6. Many posts from the Calvinista showing staunch support for Driscoll's apology. They appear to be willing to accept that it is sincere. Frankly, they are obviously choosing to ignore Driscoll's years and years of apologies and crocodile tears. During those years his disturbing behavior only escalated. Could it be that many of these people have founded ministries based on the principles of Mars Hill? How many of them have some common business interests and ties? How many of them want to be the master of a large group of churches just like Mark?
7. Janet Mefferd has long expressed her admiration for John MacArthur and his teachings. She critiqued Driscoll's plagiarism. Could it be that she is perceived by some as being on the wrong side of the charismatic issue? Could this have affected Charisma News' decision to keep up the post and delete the negative comments? Remember, Lyall Mercer is affiliated with Hillsong which is charismatic.
8. Do you think that any persons or groups who are not interested in child sex abuse in ministries will be disturbed by Driscoll throwing people under the bus?
I believe that we will continue to see a big push to marginalize the reports of bloggers. Blogs have been the main source for getting the word out that things are not rosy in churchville. Never forget that the business of large churches is business and there is lots of money to be had. In the end, always follow the money and then follow the theological ties.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 49:23-50:46 Titus 1:1-16 Psalm 97:1-98:9 Proverbs 26:13-16
“Maybe we should all get together and throw in a few dollars and submit a press release saying that we think CNS is a tool?’
I would gladly give a generous amount if you were serious. Shame on them is right on.
@ Gail:
I am serious. I am looking on their website and trying to figure out if they have any standards. But, they appear cheap.
Third!!!
I got the Eagle tingle that a new post was up but I was ordering a steakburger (dinner) at Freddy’s in Fairfax and wasn’t near my smartphone!! :-p
Who cares if we are first or third Eagle, you know your grandmother is not in a race with you. ( ;
Dee, I sent you a e mail. Methinks you are swamped. Just a heads up.
I wouldn’t waste too much energy over what Charisma Mag does. They’ve ignored the cries of their readers for years who’ve called for greater integrity. This is all water off a duck’s back. It won’t phase them.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but the truth is, any time I read something at Charisma News, I figure I need to check it out, find out the real story, instead of the spin that Charisma put on it. Seriously.
“trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live”?????????????? SERIOUSLY, Stephen Altrogge???? It’s called bringing the LIGHT into the DARKNESS of the sin and abuse going on!!!!!!! How about “encouraging” the hurt???? I had to stop reading right there. Now I shall continue… 🙂
“3. John Piper has gone out of his way to defend both CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll.”
A Piper quote was mentioned in our Sunday service… I cringed. But then our pastor mentioned those that are “jaded” and I wondered if he read TWW and knew me… (to throw humor in, I suppose if my pastor were MD he would have “saw” who “jadedone” was and put a sign up at the door to not let me in)
I thought, when I heard Janet Mefferd talking about the lawsuit against SGM with Susan Burke on her (Mefferds) radio show awhile ago, that she would be in trouble with the big dogs. And then taking on Mark Driscoll’s stuff would be even more trouble for her. Keep it up, Janet! Even if there are accusations against you.
Bottom line: never challenge John MacArthur. When MacArthur speaks, the issue is settled. That’s what got Driscoll in all this trouble with Mefferd and company. Then, if you can make a connection to those darn Charismatics; all the better.
W@ Guest:
🙄
Heir to the Throne of his Daddy’s church?
Or like Miscavage who was born & raised in Scientology?
Guest wrote:
“Abracadabra” = I SPEAK AND IT IS SO.
“trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live…”
I think Stephen’s mindset and outlook provide an invaluable glimpse into the broader culture of the Neo-Reformed movement (MH, A29, SGM, etc.). He was brought up in it. He is currently still immersed in it. He has likely seen and heard things that have soaked into his heart and mind.
So, I don’t think it’s coincidental that, in his opinion, there really isn’t any point to encouraging or enforcing accountability among Christian leaders. It’s better to just let everyone do their own thing (and thus avoid awkward situations so that everyone can be buddies and write back-cover-blurbs for each other).
My understanding is that SGM started out as a charismatic fellowship in the 1970’s when they were known by another name, but they began moving in more of a Reformed direction sometime after C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak parted ways.
Tomczak is a regular contributor at Charisma News. Other than him, I’m not aware of any other connection between SGM and Charisma. Jennifer LeClaire, Charisma’s news editor, is also director of the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Fort Lauderdale, affiliated with Mike Bickle and IHOP in Kansas City. That could open up another can of worms as Bickle and IHOP/Kansas City are also known for their share of controversy.
Though Carl Trueman is, of course, sympathetic to much of the theology of The Gospel Coalition, I see no evidence of him being a member of it
WOW. What a tangled web we weave, eh? It seems all these guys stick together. No word on anyone really distancing themselves from Driscoll? Nope,instead folks are posting press releases calling out the woman that first started asking the plagiarism questions! That does seem the status quo with these folks. Attacking bloggers really won’t solve their problems instead they are actually pouring gas on the fire aren’t they? And the fact that so many of these guys use the same exact social media and/or have their own blogs? Does that irony only escape them? I certainly did not miss it. I took a beating on Warren’s site over Marky D’s mess. It seems my speaking out again about what happened brought out a troll. My first honest experience with one, so it threw me off. He was very hateful saying awful things, just trying to shut me up I guess.I got miffed and then some of it bothered me. I don’t honestly know how the Deebs take this crap all the time. You both have my extreme respect and prayers. Thank you both for giving a voice to so many of us. Who would know what happens if not for the Watch? These men would get away with the sinful abuse in our churches and our faith would never recover. We will continue to see people falling away. For me these watchdog blogs brought me hope that my story could make a difference. My story might be heard and help someone else. Speaking out has healed me and even when I dealt with that ugly troll I did not give ground. That is a big thing for me. I am driving again too, another big thing. Things began to look up when I finally had the forum to speak about our abusive Acts 29 church. Many more people have stories that need to be told, I look forward to reading them on the Watch, and supporting them in prayer.
Hi all, long time reader but not really a commenter. I think what you guys are doing is awesome and I support you guys whole-heartedly. However, I do have a question for everybody. How do you do all this (i.e. the abuse, the funky money stuff, the outright lies) and read all this and know all this and not just get burnt out. I find myself exhausted and confused and with more questions than I know what to do with. I came out of the neo-cal movement about a year and a half ago thanks to some great people I know and heavy doses of John Wesley, Roger Olson, and Greg Boyd so I understand sort of where they come from and at the same time can’t stand where they come from. The mindset is so so delusional and wrong, but somehow we’re the bad guys. What happened to the unity Christ prayed for? How could the church feel so lost to me? I obviously don’t want unity with abuse and all of that, but who would have imagined that it would even be an issue? Perhaps I am too much of an idealist… just the state that the church is in shakes my faith pretty hard. So in summary, I believe what happens here is good and necessary but how do you keep it from poisoning you? From leaving you utterly jaded? From giving you an entirely negative outlook? Am I the only one with this struggle?
Also, we are called to love our neighbors and our enemies… How do we do that to these people? I won’t lie, I do not want to. Jesus help me! We really do need to pray for these guys and pray that our own hearts aren’t hardened. Who knows, they may truly repent. Either way I am trying to forgive them, particularly Driscoll for leading me down a dead end path for about 5 years.
Sorry if I rambled, I’m not the best communicator.
When I got the “left foot of fellowship” it was for being in the way, nothing more. These guys could careless about Matthew 19 I think it is and other such nonsense. It is about politics, power and the holy of holies; economics. These men, and most of them are men who live rather high on the hog on the “church’s Dime”. I have no problem with that, I believe in free markets, even in religion, actually especially religion. But it is when they change the rules and move the goal posts I have trouble. But that is just me.
Dee wrote,
Yes. Those sons of the annointed.
Here’s another famous one, Paul Crouch, Jr.
I’ll bet you will crack up watching…
http://youtu.be/T9uANJR1qRg
Well, not entirely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYVCVx5QyFQ
I know Stephen Altrogge … Nice kid however he is permanently warped in SGM thought and speech. Truth and the biblical application of it are things for which he , and many others like him in SGM, strive to accomplish, however they miss the mark consistently because they were never taught that Christ, and not the man-led churches, are to ALWAYS take a backseat to Him. One must remember that they are truly blinded to this truth. This is why they ride the mighty horse of self righteousness when it comes to saying against a fellow believer. To them it is slander, especially if the criticism is aimed at a leader, or worse, a SGM leader. His father Mark Altrogge LEFT SGM because he actually understood that SGM put themselves in front of Christ. Mark is a man full of the Holy Spirit. Stephen is just a by product of years of SGM false teachings when it comes to the supremacy of God’s Word over a man-led organization that STILL allows a man like CJ Mahaney to pastor a church while still in the grave sin of pride and pharasaical behaviors.
Point taken here … http://thewartburgwatch.com/tww2/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Screen-Shot-2014-03-24-at-4.04.23-PM.png
Stephen calls the biblical act of keeping a fellow believer accountable a “miserable” way to live”. In SGM land, this type of biblical action is from Satan himself. They are blind to scriptures that give Christians the authority to do so … Unless It comes from the them.
Terrific article fact is bloggers pose a significant threat as we all recall Ergun Caner rather than can him for being an unrepentant pathological liar, he is shuffled around to various “theology” schools. To deflect attention from himself, Caner stated publicly bloggers all residing in mom’s basement or some such nonsense. God expects us to challenge those who are false, but it sure does not make one popular.
Driscoll’s sexist, vulgar, demon porn-o-vision shared while performing on stage of MH a building d.b.a. church revealed him unfit to pastor; but cha-ching is king. Marvelous connections made herein, I’ve noticed and mentioned some for years these are hirelings/wolves working together to confuse, twist, distort the Gospel. Interesting, is it not, for centuries Christ built His church w/o any need of PDL, Acts 29, SGM, TOG, Piper, Beth Moore and imaginary friends (audible voice). Apologize for the long winded comment. Glad Janet Mefford is shining a light maybe those who follow the crowd of blind guides will finally see. Brian, “the holy of holies economics” absolutely hysterical…
@ Gail:
Ha, ha, yes, that would be fun, I’d be in.
Smear by association? Classic T.W.W. posts.
How would Stephen Altrogge know if it was a miserable way to live? He should test his theory and try making the leaders of SGM accountable for their stupid handling of the pedophile cases. If he loses those leaders as friends, he may be miserable for a while, then he can gain a great community to go to on the internet. What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger. Misery is a choice, apostle Paul learned to be content in all circumstances. So, why couldn’t he?
Who says this blog is full of misery? Maybe we are happy because we are free? Maybe we are relieved and that brings us joy? If holding people accountable has been such misery for him, maybe he needs new friends?
Denny Burk has now publicly stated his is all for Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Good, when will he post about CJ Mahaney?
He cites Prov. 3:31 Other than proving he doesn’t either a) know his Bible or b) know how to tweet, I thought I would help fill in Eph: 3:22 – 31 (since all the Bibles, except Denny’s, are missing these verses):
22. To the Female Christian Talk Radio Hostesses, the (female) Bloggers and other critics, thou are excused from exposing any darkness, as it may hurt our (oops, I mean their) bottom line. 23 Exposing Darkness is strictly to keep congregants in line, 24 and not to be generally applied by the whole body of Christ, as only a few MALE mega church leaders are anointed, 25 everyone else is to work and make money for us (oops, I mean these guys). 26 I am not an Anceint Near Eastern god, really, I’m not… 27 I just appear to be that way demanding most of my followers work their butts off, keep their mouths, and keyboards, shut and 28, 29, and 30 give my appointed leaders all of your earnings and free thought. 31 I reward those who keep you in bondage.
So there you have it, Ephesians 3:31 in Denny Burk’s newest translation from the Southern Baptist Seminary translations committee.
Ephesians 3:31 – I (Baal – OOOPS NO!, god) reward those who keep you in bondage.
Part 1 of 2
I understand that SGM has been known for shepherding its members. Does this statement:
Trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live
constitute repentance on behalf of SGM generally? Has Stephen Altrogge always been opposed to hierarchical accountability? Or was he in the past complicit in putting such structures in place and is now personally repenting of it? If so, then it would be encouraging to hear that he and/or other SGM leaders are now reaching out to small group leaders, pastors and other middle-ranking leaders for the culture in which they were required to supervise, shepherd and hold accountable those beneath them. As it happens, it’s true – and I speak from personal experience. When it’s your fault if someone in your house group misses a meeting, that is indeed a miserable existence.
Part 2 of 2
Sadly, though, it might be that he only disapproves of keeping the strong and the powerful accountable. Keeping little people accountable has always been OK, of course. But we all know the score: not many of us should presume to be teachers because those who teach will be subject to stricter judgement. The implication, when James actually wrote that, was that God will hold us to account.
That being the case, much as my ego hates criticism, deep down I am grateful for everyone who holds me to account for what I blog about. And surely, so well-known preachers who sell many books, whose platforms are high and large or whose sermons are widely listened-to. Better to be held accountable now, while there’s time to do something about it, than when it’s too late.
For as long as I’ve been a Christian, I’ve heard preachers (from time to time) complaining about how hard it is looking after their stubborn and rebellious sheep. Park Fiscal used, but did not invent, the phrase “blessed subtraction” and he isn’t the first powerful church CEO to celebrate the people he’s got rid of.
Trying to speak truth (with or without love, and admittedly not all Christian bloggers show much love) to stubborn and rebellious Christian authors is just as thankless a task as is trying to pastor those stubborn and rebellious wee little sheep. But if we truly care about their eternal destinies, we will shoulder that burden gladly.
Part 3 of 2
I have been carefully cultivating a couple of running jokes on TWW:
1) In other news… [followed by something completely tangential to the thread]
2) How world-changingly brilliant my blog is
I am considering embedding this one as a third: i.e., “Part N of M” where N > M. In a spirit of proper attribution, I must acknowledge the late Douglas Adams, who described his novel “So Long, and Thanks For All The Fish” as “the fourth book in the Hitchhiker trilogy”.
The thoughts of others would be appreciated.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
On reflection, I should have written this:
Part N+k of N
“SGM Part 2: Juniors Rising”
hahahaha!
Thank goodness for the bloggers!
Regarding Sovereign Grace Church in Indiana, Pennsylvania, it was the second oldest church in the SGM “family of churches” according to Brent Detwiler (link), and the leadership wanted to leave SGM.
SGC Indiana, PA is no longer affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries (link).
Mark Altrogge wrote an article called 12 Things to Do When You’re Criticized that was posted on churchleaders.com
Here’s Altrogge's list:
1. Be quick to hear. (James 1:19)
2. Be slow to speak. (James 1:19)
3. Be slow to become angry.
4. Don’t rail back.
5. Give a gentle response.
6. Don’t defend yourself too quickly.
7. Consider what might be true in the critique, even if it is given in a poor way.
8. Remember the cross.
9. Consider the fact that you have blind spots.
10. Pray about the criticism.
11. Ask others for their opinion.
12. Consider the source.
Hopefully, Mark’s son will take what his father has written to heart.
@ Deb:
Words to blog by!
Altrogge senior’s points are ones I’m also trying to embed. The two I’m working on at the moment are:
1) Never comment angry
2) Don’t drink and drive: don’t drink and comment either
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Here’s a third: never comment on lochs, anything starting with Ben, rock climbing or haggis. Haaa, I’ve taken away 1/2 of your commenting material !
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Don’t drive and comment either.
(Your friendly public service announcement.)
Dee, you stated in the post the Stephen Altrogge is an SGM pastor. He was a pastor in the Indiana, PA church. After the church pulled out of SGM, Stephen decided to step down as a pastor. You can verify that by going to the church website and checking the list of pastors. Stephen also blogged about his decision last August. http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2013/08/a-new-chapter-for-me.html
About your comment concerning different ways of understanding grace, and speaking of the pentecostal/charismatic connection:
Some of the statements and behaviors of some of the leadership under discussion make one wonder if they have appropriated for themselves some of the thinking of the “grace reformation” teaching that seems to be going around in some pentecostal/charismatic circles.
It is too complicated to explain here, but it is basically the old Marcionite heresy revisited. They say that they do not adhere to the Calvinist doctrines of grace but rather to their other ideas about grace. For those who might be interested it is worth checking out. It is in the ballpark of things that Bonhoeffer called cheap grace and others currently are calling “hyper-grace” and would be perfect for anybody who wanted to get away with anything and everything without having anybody call them out on it.
I don’t know, obviously, but it is worth thinking about. Especially in the light of the apparent distance between JM and the MD-like crowd. It is definitely a different understanding of grace. I have no first hand experience with this “new” grace movement because I am not a part of the pentecostal/charismatic segment of christianity. (I am a continuationist, and that means that basically I do not think that God went off and left us while I sit on my main line pew.) So I do not have any access to this information except what I read. But it is an interesting thought.
I think someone already mentioned that Mark Altrogge’s church is no longer a part of SGM. Not sure if it matters but I believe that Stephen is no longer a pastor at his dad’s church.
I left a SGM church over a year ago. During the time I was a member of a SGM church I disagreed with many of the beliefs and how many perfectly good truths were distorted/implemented. (Why we were there for so long is another story.) Even though I tried really hard while I was there ; to not let the wrong teaching affect me- of course it did. Leaving SGM for my husband it was like waking up and for me it was like coming out of a long time of depression. We really couldn’t understand the degree to which the wrong teaching had influenced us until we left. We have had long conversations with our adult/teen sons about our time in SGM. We’ve apologized ,we’ve cried ,we’ve prayed, we’ve changed and by the grace of God our children have forgiven us. I have been blunt about the fact that we have all truly been in a process of detox. I think just being real about our mistakes has been helpful for my kids and for me. None of this erases the effects of their having been there during their teen years so in reality we are daily being forgiven.
I don’t know Janet M. but I did not appreciate that she was being called out as an enemy of the church. It reminded me of a typical political campaign smear tactic.
So why post this ( maybe because it’s been a year since we left) but mostly because my heart still hurts when I think about those who have grown up in the SGM system. I am not defending Stephen – I don’t know him. And while he might not appreciate it I have prayed for him because he has mentioned on his blog that he suffered from depression. I am not excusing him – he is a grown man but perhaps it does help to understand him.
I am not sure if this makes sense – it is still hard to put it into writing. I am so grateful to no longer be a part of what felt like a prison to me. Sorry if this is off topic.
Keep up the excellent work Deebs!!
Honestly, I read these men ( on their own blogs) having a hissy fit about the watchers blogs and shake my head. What? It’s okay for them to rant and rave about the sins, omissions, follies of others (or the fit punishments of tornadoes and bridge collapses on the sheep)all the while selling their books and pumping up their conference schedules but horrors some women exposing sexual abuse, financial abuse in the church, are to be chastised? These men are so full of themselves, it’s almost unbelievable.
As for the sons of the leaders. …. how convenient to be born to the manor.Must give you a leg up on all things gospelly , all things wise, all things pertaining to living righteously. I wonder why though, the Apostles had no sons to leave a gospelly legacy to…..guess they didn’t carry the torch well enough, eh?
I’m sure someone’s made a comment like this before, but it was a thought that came into my head while reading the summary points at the end of the post and which I think bears saying (again). Dismissing all complaints and concerns as ‘bottom feeders’, and being dismissive of calling out other Christians for sin and abuse is a lack of empathy. It’s also a lack of understanding what hurt is. When victims of perceived (deliberate word choice, I’ll explain below) abuses and hurts are seen as causing problems, or blowing a minor or trivial issue out of proportion, that says everything about the dismissers and nothing about the alleged victims. The reason why is the same reason I used the word perceived above: it’s all about empathy. The fact of the matter is people will have different reactions to the same event, or experience, or teaching. So a group of people might have the same experience, but only some of them felt hurt by it. While it’d be nice if there was a clear line marking what counts as abuse/hurt and what doesn’t, there simply isn’t a line. People’s other experiences, their personality, their current emotional state, all sorts of things influence how someone responds to a situation. And this is where empathy comes in: while there might be people who weren’t hurt by a situation, that doesn’t mean those who felt hurt are lying or illegitimate in their feelings. Empathy says I will listen to your hurt. It says I want to know how to help you stop feeling hurt. It means putting the hurting person’s situation above your own, at least for a little while. It means silencing yourself, not silencing the other person. It’s a very Christlike characteristic, yet it seems to be so lacking in these celebrichristians.
This camp is making the illusion that they are taking the high road. Really, they are just denying that church leaders are capable of very wicked things. If they would actually practice accountability with each other, this blog would not be necessary!
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
My thoughts went there, too. Since he felt it necessary to call Janet out on her “sin,” I doubt he’s repented of the Shepherding Sin-Sniffing.
Steven Altrogge is the Twit in Twitter
I thought Stephen Altrogge blogged on SGM Survivors in August that he was leaving the Pastorship. I didn't think he was a Pastor? Can anyone confirm?
One thing I am cofused about is the following. If you were in a SGM church and sinning ths system lead by your pastor could come down on you hard. It could come down on people like a load of bricks. Not only that but people could be shunned, etc… Stephen Altorrage would not take that approach to someone in the congregation at Indiana, PA.
Am I wrong?
@ Kristin:
I agree but I also think it’s more serious then that. I think we’re looking at a plague of false leadership enjoined routinely at their Contagions err Conferences where they perpetuate false teaching, such as what we see happening with the CBMW. Accountability suggests an earnest commitment to serving the interests of others besides themselves. Where do we see evidence of any sense of accountability, or a responsibility to take into serious consideration what the Body of Christ is saying about them outside their protective bubble? They appear bent on serving a self-serving agenda in which they provide each other positions and platforms, and to hayol with the rest of us. They’re the saved and sanctified!
@ Haitch:
Dinnae forget fitba’, hen…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Urban Dictionary has the definition of “fitba,” too. 🙂
@ Marge Sweigart:
I recall that as well. Looks like you can take the man out of SGM but not the SGM out of the man. Was there ever an official statement, Marge?
Looks to me like a Josh Harris type of extraction where they retain the essential elements. Harris remains on the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood as well as The Gospel Coalition for example. (I imagine thats got to be awkward for Mahaney.)
@ Rob:
Agreed. But, I think this is a great expose of their, how shall we say, “editorial” policy. Now you have something tangible.
@ Gail:
I am planning on pursuing the PR ad today. This could be fun.
@ JadedOne:
This is typical SGM baloney. They play games with words. However, we won’t let him play it with us. The games are so transparent to anyone who has followed SGM for even a microsecond.
@ Paula:
I’m sure it’s not easy to reject the DNA of SGM.
As Marge S. pointed out, Stephen Altrogge is no longer a pastor at SGC Indiana, PA, but his bio on Sovereign Grace Music’s website states the following:
Guess Sovereign Grace Music needs to update its website…
@ Deb:
lol @ “when not shining his Dad’s shoes”
Yes, I’ve noticed that about some bios. SGM seems to have lost its former luster for some reason. Some of their fashionable websites are wearing a outdated outfits.
@ Joy Huff:
Joy, did you catch any of the SGM tactic in Altorgge’s tweet? He was only telling Janet to be encouraging? What a pile of dog doo. He was going after her and everyone knowns it.
Then when his “SGM approved” tactic didn’t work, he starts whining about “watchbloggers” which was what this was about anyway. I wonder if he whined to his”authority” as well. He probably got brownie points with his compadres for getting told off by “watchbloggers.”
There was this guy who didn’t like one of my tweets. Actually, it was a mild one. So, he went whining to people he perceived to be above me, trying to get me in trouble in something I do outside of this blog. It didn’t work. As I told some people, the guy needed to grow a pair and act like a man instead of a whiny butt.
Stephen and this other guy are wusses. They play the “real man” game but they act like third grade playground bullies. When they don’t get their own way, they run to the teacher.
Stephen is just a whiny butt trying to play SGM “observation” games.
@ JadedOne:
These guys link arms around their group so they don’t lose their perceived “authority.” They have a difficult time when people don’t accept their base paradigm.
@ Unwanted:
I know what you mean – it is hard to read this blog and not frequently feel angry, frustrated, sad, disappointed, even outraged.
Yet read it I do.
Like some other posters on here, I had grave doubts about Mark Driscoll over 6 years ago. I read what he said, and started to seriously think he has a sex and porn addiction at the very least. Then it got worse. (for the record, I now am convinced he is steeped in sexual sin and it will eventually come out one day). Back then, though, part of me thought I must be wrong about him, because everyone else around me thought he was just great. Dear friends of mine listened to his sermons on their MP3s. Others quoted him. And we’re all in the UK!
It was only by discovering blogs like Wartburg that I started to realise I was not alone. This blog, and others, have given me some much-needed sanity and (virtual) solidarity, because in the ‘real world’ I’m still a lone voice (in my circles anyway).
I now read here as a duty, almost. If no-one else knows or cares about the dark side of the Neo-Reformed movement, well, I feel I should keep myself informed. A large part of me would much rather bury my head in the sand and pretend it’s ok. But it’s not, sadly.
Thanks to Dee and Deb for doing a wonderful work on this blog. Keep it up girls. It’s a very important ministry.
@ Guest:
Here is my view on things. All of these guys are pretty dan sure of themselves. My point is not to say one is better than another. I wanted to show how people form their cliques and what they do when the paradigms of their clique is challenged. It does appear, from my perspective, that they go for one another’s jugular. We plan to talk about Joe Carter’s little dustup later this week. Hoo boy-nasty reigned supreme.
@ Mr.H:
Great comment.
you state:
“5. A few members of TGC did not like Driscoll’s book, Real Marriage. One member, Carl Trueman supports CJ Mahaney but does not support Driscoll, at least for now.”
I am not so sure that Trueman is a member of the TGC since he is not listed as a council member on their website. He may have done some things involved with TGC but I dont think he is a member of TGC
@ singleman:
It is interesting that many of the Calvinsta set point to SGM as a group which melded charismatic worship with Reformed theology. I believe they attributed the perceived success of SGM to this supposed melding. However, with the implosion of SGM, I have read less and less about charismatic theology being incorporated into Calvinstaville.
@ Still Soarin’:
My story is very similar to yours. Although some of my kids, I don’t think have really forgiven me. I’m now trying to figure out how to move on.
If you’re wondering whether Stephen Altrogge is loyal to Sovereign Grace Ministries, perhaps these two bits of information will help to answer that question…
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/2/13/mark-altrogge-and-sovereign-grace-church-of-indiana-pa-leave.html
http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2013/08/a-new-chapter-for-me.html
@ JeffB:
You are correct. What I meant to say is that TGC and those that love them. I was drawing a picture of a large group of people. I need to be a bit more precise in my depictions.
I’m sorry but this is ridiculous.
In my original Tweet I never mentioned Janet Mefferd. Someone else mentioned Mefferd, then somehow I got pulled into it. I don’t know who Janet Mefferd is. I don’t care who she is. I have no beef with her or anyone else.
I don’t suppose you’ll take this down, but I feel like I should at least point out that you’ve somehow pulled me into this strange web when I had nothing to do with it.
Alright, I’m out.
And could you make sure you have your facts straight please. I’m not an SGM pastor. I’m not a pastor at all.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Douglas Adams is brilliant. I have all five parts of his trilogy.
One final thought. It’s really sad to me how some of you folks treat me. When you say “Stephen puts the Twit in Twitter,” that is just plain unkindness. It’s nothing more than name calling. You don’t know me, you don’t know my family, you don’t know how difficult life is for me now. And now, because of a random tweet which had nothing to do with any of this, I’m being called a brainwashed idiot who can’t think straight and who has no idea what’s going on. That’s tough.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Your story does make a difference. More and more, people are beginning to recognize the issues in stories such as yours. That is why there is a concerted effort to marginalize bloggers. It won’t work.
So long as we keep telling the truth from our perspectives, there is little they can do to shut us up. And people like Stephen who have been walled up in the SGM environment for years are getting their first taste of reality. The moment they move into the arena of “free speech” they lose with their little tactics. That is why I posted his tweets. They do tell the story, don’t they?
@ Still Soarin':
What you have shared about your children growing up in SGM has been one of my biggest concerns. I am worried for the next generation coming out of this 'family of churches'.
Please know that I am praying for you and your loved ones.
Unwanted wrote:
We are not jaded because we know some of the good guys. I was blessed to be in some churches that worked without the need for “authority” and “discipline” being jammed down everyone’s throats on a daily basis.
Here is a post we wrote
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/26/wade-burleson-and-pete-briscoe-two-pastors-who-really-get-it/
Read people like Phillip Yancey. Find groups which emphasize grace and love. Contrary to the dour Calvinista crowd, an emphasis on both of these attributes gives perspective in how we relate to God.
It is my goal to shout out about grace and love to counter the negativity that comes from the others. And contrary to their predictions, such knowledge makes it a joy to serve God. God is not waiting in the wings to slap us down for each and every sin. He has forgiven us and that makes us free.
We want to be one voice crying in the darkness to come over the light. God truly loves you and is not in the business of trying to find ways to keep people out of His kingdom. He actually wants you!
brian wrote:
I am sorry for what you went through. Jesus used His freedom to not become rich. Free markets work in an economy because it is based on the fact that most people hope to acquire wealth. That is the underpinning of capitalism. i have an MBA and am sympathetic to the idea when it involves simply economic structures.
However, in the church, our goal should not be to acquire wealth for ourselves. In fact, it should be countercultural in which we use the freedom to give away wealth to others in order to advance the kingdom. The goal of the church is not to become materially wealthy but to become poor in the service of others. Somehow, I don’t think Jesus would have been driving a Benz chariot.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Prior to launching TWW five years ago, Dee and I were in different churches that were (unbeknownst to us) being influenced by the Calvinista leaders we discuss – Driscoll, Dever, Piper, Duncan, Mahaney, Mohler, etc. Case in point – C.J. Mahaney spoke at Dee’s former church just last year!
Perhaps it was providential that we left our congregations before Neo-Calvinism had been fully implemented.
We’re so grateful we can be helpful to those like you who have been negatively impacted by these Neo-Cal leaders and their peculiar theology.
Counting my blessings!
@ TedS.:
Thank you, thank you. I am adding to the post immediately. I wonder how long it will stay up?
Deb wrote:
Or can the North Korean biographer who wrote that copy.
@ Stephen Altrogge:
Baloney.
dee wrote:
Which is where Christian Reconstructionism and 200-year-plans come in.
When the Commanders of Holy Gilead control all speech (in God’s Name, of course), there won’t be a problem, will there?
@ Stephen Altrogge:
Do you work for SGM? Were you an SGM pastor?
Somewhereintime wrote:
AKA an SGM-bot, incapable of anything except duckspeaking The Party Line?
TedS. wrote:
I occilated between laughing and being disgusted.
It’s become evident that being a minister is just not good enough for for most of these guys. they need to be worshipped themselves. I can’t remember where I saw it, but someone coined the term “MEsus”, which is a perfect description for them. These MEsus ®People need their egos continually fed by adoring fanboys in their ‘churches’ and at the numerous conferences they speak at. They make up their own gospel and the Bible is merely a source of verses they can pluck out of context to ‘support’ their ‘gospel’ and to suppress any of those who dare even raise a question about what they pronounce. They each have their own little fiefdoms and will swarm like ants to protect each other when they are called to account for their actions. I do believe they suffer from Industrial Disease
Two men say they’re Jesus one of them must be wrong
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
Right. Do you always tag people you don’t know in your tweets? You tagged Janet. You weren’t pulled into anything. Do you need a tissue?
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
It is time to grow up. We have your tweets. You started this. You utilize a well known tactic in some circles of saying things then denying that was what you meant. I wil change the post to reflect that you were an SGM pastor in a church which left SGM and had one pastor who didn't want to leave SGM. Guess who that was? Oh right-don't you have a job with SGM Worship now? Time to change your bio. Deb wrote:
“Trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live”
HUH!? So don’t try to hold anyone accountable for anything?
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
The screen shots in the post show you responding to Janet Mefferd via Twitter. Do you often tag those you don't know?
It certainly appears that you know who she is from reading the Twitter feed.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Busted
Dee…did you see my email?
@ dee:
Thank your for your kind words. I truly do hope God wants something to do with me, but my stay in the neo-cal camp for about five years (senior year of high school through college) has kind of warped me in some fashion. The hardest thing for me to believe is that God loves me when I was told for so long that everything about me is repugnant to God.
I also now live in extremely rural North Carolina where 9 out of 10 churches are fundamentalists of some sort and I have been told on several occasions that I am not welcome because of some minor secondary doctrinal disagreement. For example, I am Old Earth Creationist (possibly theistic evoution, I’m not sure)and was chewed out. I expressed admiration for Greg Boyd at one church and was told to leave by the pastor. I would consider myself a progressive evangelical and so here I fit nowhere. I am too conservative for the liberals and too liberal for the conservatives. I ask too many questions it seems.
I just pray that God can help me break this hold on my mind and that I can learn to believe he loves me. The neo-cal message was simply confusing God hates everything about you because you’re a filthy sinner, but he died for you to prove his love, but he still hates you because you’re a sinner.
Take a look at our update on the post. There is a current bio that states he is an SGM pastor. Perhaps he isn't but he is working with Sovereign Grace Music. He should have his bio on that website updated to reflect accurate info regarding his current position. But, for sure, he was, at the minimum, a pastor at SGM until fairly recently. Also, the controversy surrounding his alleged leaving is quite interesting. Stephen is a big supporter of SGM. @ Dude:
@ Somewhereintime:
Stephen keeps denying all of this even though the screen shots prove his direction of comments at Janet Mefferd, and then at me as well. He also denies that he said what he did. I can imagine that people in SGM congregations experienced some of these same issues.
He also denies being an SGM pastor. But, he was and he is now working for Sovereign Grace Music in which his bio still states that he is a pastor. So who is responsible for getting the facts straight? I guess he is saying not to trust online statements from SGM.
Finally, when he left his church, there has a bit of a dustup. His church pulled out from under the SGM umbrella. One pastor was opposed to this…
@ Marge Sweigart:
He better change his bio on the Sovereign Grace Music website. But for sure he was a pastor, and his bio currently says so.
@ singleman: you are correct on SGM, and also on the fact that Charisma (which has been allied with some really questionable parts of the charismativ movement up til now) will get worse if/when Bickle and similar become their focus.
Fwiw, i started out in charismatic churches in the early 70s and well remember the days when SGM was openly charismatic, albeit very cult-like (well, already a cult) back in the early 80s. Friends kept trying to coax me into joining the Fairfax, VA church. God knows i was in equally weird places at the time, though the groupthink pressure wasn’t quite as extreme.
Val wrote:
BAM!
Val wrote:
he will tell you that you are a bottom feeding gossip. If we hadn’t already names this blog, I think I would name it Bottom Feeding Gossip!
@ Deb:
That is for the rest of us.
@ Nick Bulbeck: yep, they were/are heavily influenced by the shepherding garbage. (Am a survivor of it myself, though in other places.)
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
Hey Stephen, just wanted to say that I am sorry you feel this way.
Have you heard of the term, passive-aggressive?
I was involved in SGM before you were born.
The whole culture revolved around not taking responsibility for one’s actions, and not continuing to engage with disgruntled people. If you could actually stick around more, and learn to engage with the people that SGM has hurt in a healthy way, people would not have such visceral negative reactions. Actually apologizing for supporting an incredibly abusive ministry would help.
I have had an immense respect for your father. Once again, I am sorry you feel like you are a victim, here, but maybe it’s about time you experience what it is like to be marginalized on a full scale, the way that the real victims of SGM were. I do pray you will learn to engage with hurting people. It would greatly enhance your ministry, whatever it is now.
Dude wrote:
It appears to have worked one way-the pastors and their families appear to get passes.
May wrote:
🙂
Marie2 wrote:
Oops misplaced modifier.
If you could actually stick around more, and learn to engage in a healthy way with the people that SGM has hurt ….
If y’all “watchdoggers” could just leave them alone and embrace the cone of silence and stop asking questions…http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/03/prestonwood-baptist-church-and-cone-of.html
Still Soarin’ wrote:
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I, too, am sorry if Stephen is suffering from depression or anxiety. I hope he is getting help. On the other hand, I know many people who suffer from both suffering and anxiety who do not attack others as they struggle with their issues. Maybe he should “retire” from Twitter for awhile.
Lin wrote:
The key word is “watch.” They just don’t like it.
BTW-this post proves why we must take screen shots. They deny things that they said, even with proof.
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
Stephen-perhaps you need to get YOUR facts straight. Go look at your bio at SGM Music.
dee wrote:
Oceania has always been at Peace with Eurasia, Comrade.
@ JeffT:
I did not post all of the tweets in this exchange. My answer to this one was
“We don’t. Do you?” No response.
PS-in case they try to deny this answer, I have all of my tweets safe and sound in my account .
dee wrote:
There’s also the phenomenon known as “Net Drunk”, where someone gets a lot nastier and more aggressive and obnoxious when they’re posting on the Internet and safely out of fist range.
Jack Graham Explains How to Have Your Best Christmas: Shun Church Critics, Especially Those “Watchdoggers” http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/12/jack-graham-explains-how-to-have-your.html?m=1
dee wrote:
“All animals are equal
BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS!”
— G.Orwell, “Animal Farm”
Reformed Berean wrote:
You are correct and i have corrected the post. However, go over to TGC and plug in his name. There are 64 entries to look at. That is far more than most members.
Also, he served on CJ’s exoneration committee and i have posted that link on the post.
@ Eagle:
Be in touch shortly. Keep it zipped! 🙂
dee wrote:
AKA “Poor Poor Innocent Victim Me”.
You DO know that one of the most sure signs of a sociopath is the ability to Play the Victim when caught and groom everyone to Feel Sorry For Me (and shift the blame away)?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Yep, and they’re so big and tough that they have to remain anonymous while calling people like me names: antichurch, antichrist, and social assassin.
https://twitter.com/TruthTeller1125
Unwanted wrote:
He does not hate you. This is a warped message spread by those who want an excuse to control you. One of the saddest exchanges I saw was on a blog in which a woman said she was so grateful that God saved her because she realizes, every day, what a worm she is.
Good night! She doesn’t know that God will one day raise her above the angels. That God does not view her as a worm but as a dearly loved daughter.
Marie2 wrote:
This is the best way to learn how to actually serve others in a pastoral way, whether or not you have a title. See Matt Redmond’s blog: http://mattbredmond.com and see how he learned more about how to pastor by leaving the ministry for awhile.
Prime examples:
“8) Honestly, my critics were nearly always people to be dismissed. That was a mistake. Truthfully, I was most likely worse than they knew. But I knew it. And I was defensive. I don’t want to fear criticism anymore.”
“10) I don’t want to be afraid of offending the powerful but I do want to be afraid of not caring for the marginal.”
“9) Somewhere I bought into the idea that because I was the leader, I knew what was best for the people I was leading. I knew what the people needed far more than they did. It’s really a lonely way to live…” (see link for the rest.)
Amy Smith wrote:
Oh, now I get it. I’ve seen that and wondered, Amy.
This is a great post by Mary DeMuth, Spiritual Abuse: 10 Ways to Spot it
http://www.marydemuth.com/spiritual-abuse-10-ways-to-spot-it/
8. Buffer him/herself from criticism by placing people around themselves whose only allegiance is to the leader.
Amy Smith wrote:
“There’s lots of bloggers and watchdoggers who love to attack pastors and churches…maybe people you hang out with who love to attack churches and be negative about the church. My advice to you if you want to be happy in life is to get as far away as possible from those people. They’re only going to drag you down….Instead, get around people who say something like this: ‘Isn’t it great what God is doing in our church?'”
Hmmmm. Sounds to me like milieu control– one of Robert Lifton’s eight criteria for thought reform.
I think Stephen wishes for us to comb this out of his crossed hairs, but this is his mess. Hope he has a good comb.
“I got attacked for being encouraging! Those people are SO bad! They called me names, too! “
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
To me the most startling part of what Jack said is “maybe people you hang out with.”
He encourages members to shun their friends and family…sole allegiance is to him and Prestonwood. This is different from a cult, how?
@ Amy Smith: Yup!
The cone of silence has been obliterated by the internet. 🙂
@ Amy Smith:
But it’s perfectly ok to hang out with those who molest children or cover it up.
Sounds cult-like to me.
@ Deb:
Right on, right on, right on…to quote a famous Texan.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Or your pal that you dedicate books to but had to fire for having an affair with a choir member…http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2014/03/tx-state-in-which-it-is-crime-for.html
Texas is a state in which it is a crime for clergy to have sexual relations with a congregant.
Announcer: “SGM, clean up on Aisle 5!”
SGM: “Um, we don’t clean up messes, we just shove it under the rug and cover it up. When that doesn’t work we shift the responsibility to someone else. When that doesn’t work out we clam up, act self-righteous & persecuted, and sermonize about pride, submission to leadership and God’s grace & forgiveness. So, you do it and get your hands dirty. And thank YOU for serving!”
@ Katie:
Katie, thank you soooo much for sharing this!
How I wish that Mr. Stephen himself could read and process that info.
I can’t wait to “dig on it” later….
Gotta run for now but I will be back…..
Your posts here always encourage my heart, even though I have not been here long, thank you for being here….
Perhaps Stephen Altrogge is beholden to C.J. Mahaney because of his book endorsement. Mahaney did a post on Altrogge's new book Game Day for the Glory of God back in 2008.
Here is Mahaney interviewing Altrogge about his book. I stopped listening after the 1 minute mark because I DID NOT like the question being posed by Mahaney nor Stephen's response. BTW – it has to do with my Alma Mater… 😉
Unwanted wrote:
Dear “Unwanted”,
You are loved. Jesus asked “too many questions” also. Many children of God are discovering that the family of God is so much larger than any building, denomination, or city can even contain. May you find, as I have been finding, that this planet has countless others who have heard Holy Spirit directly teach them, just like Jesus promised. May fear be squeezed out of you as you rest in our Father’s loving grasp, and may you be empowered to follow Jesus wherever He leads you.
Peace and love,
Erik Merksamer
Boston, MA
@ Paula:
Of course, he used the derogatory term “watchbloggers.” And tryst me, that is a swear word in those circles.
Note: he signed off again. He played that game on twitter as well.
Deb wrote:
Ha! I was with him about the New York Yankees, but I feel your cringe about Duke!! In my childhood imagination, I went to Duke on a basketball scholarship just like my hero Christian Laettner. I dreamed I could sink the 3s like he did so effortlessly. 🙂 In a sick, twisted kind of way, this kind of thing points to the conformist culture in churches like that. "Unity" simply equals conformity.
Amy Smith wrote:
One of these days I’m going to introduce myself, Amy. SNAP spoke up on behalf of abused children at my former “church.” Maybe that’s why I am drawn to your story.
There was recently another situation that the county sheriff was called in to investigate. The victim soon stopped cooperating with authorities. I believe she was intimidated by her family and “church” to keep quiet. It’s not over with yet. But, I realized how difficult it is to prosecute these crimes in Texas even if law enforcement are certain there is, indeed, a crime. It’s what makes clergy abuse so insidious. The power structure works to silence victims.
Dee and Deb, I am sure you are familiar with this verse already but it seemed an appropriate response to those who are all for unity instead of the truth. “12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. ‘Expel the wicked person from among you.'” 1 Corinthians 5:12-13
@ Erik:
That's what I thought as well. "You must not just cheer for your team, you must hate the rivals." I also noticed Mahaney's redefining of the word hate and justifying it to the mom who overheard his comment. She seemed concerned about children not understanding the concept of hate when CJ is saying it is okay to use it in referencing "other" teams. And we wonder why we see fights and brawls at little league games between parents, kids, and coaches of opposing teams. "Pastor says it's okay in sports." What idiots . . . yes strong words.
@ Katie:
Continuing with that idea, of listening to the little guy, before another blog post comes up and the conversation turns to something else (you guys are incredible in how quickly you put things up) here is an interesting window into how militant defensiveness has seeped into S. Altrogge’s brain. I wonder if this comes from the SGM business mindset that most churches are adopting: treat your ministry as a business, and ignore the detractors, because they will make you lose the focus of your vision, and we can’t have that:
http://fiskingfeminist.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/the-silencing-of-the-oppressed-in-sgm-part-2/
SA: “My point is simply this: Hannah’s version is not a fair representation of the church as a whole. Yes, it is her experience, and I do not discredit that. But my personal knowledge of the church, my attendance of the church, and my relationships within that church make me certain of particular facts. Hannah interpreted those facts in a particular way – many others did not.”
Blogger’s commentary:
I still can’t believe that he never once says “I’m so sorry this happened to you, Hännah, I will strive to make sure that my words and my preachings are more bible based than the things you heard, and to make sure my flock understands how to apply them biblically and not legalistically.” He has no idea that he is coming across as singularly unsympathetic and legalistic.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Hello!
Also, in context that was the dude with the incest so it is extremely applicable to the cases of sexual abuse
Unwanted wrote:
Well said. It is interesting that in my reading of all things SGM that verse only seemed to apply to the members.
A message to Unwanted ;
I found myself in your boat, and still do in many ways, having been fed bad theology all the way around.
The answer is the Bible, which states we need no teacher but the Holy Spirit, who teaches us all things.
You need your Bible and the Holy Spirit to illuminate the truth of what the Word says.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John – Hold the horse til I get on. Start there.
God bless you in your journey, and I’ll be praying for you.
~ Sabrae
Sabrae wrote:
Thanks, I appreciate your prayers. I have taken that advice I recently tossed out my ESV SB with all my notes from that period of my life and bought a really nice Allan NIV 2011 Readers Reference Bold text. Yes, the dreaded NIV 2011. It felt like a good break from the past and honestly I love it. That translation speaks to my heart. I bought the lie that it was evil, but the Holy Spirit is using it in my life powerfully to slowly heal me.
These guys are all the same in one important respect: they are just fine as long as you agree with them and don’t rock the boat, but the second you disagree, or point out some fault or shortcoming, you are persona non grata and it’s war. Doesn’t matter if what you’re pointing out is a minor theological issue or a major moral and ethical failure. You become the enemy, and they will hound you to death over it. MacArthur and his people do this, too (they’re a little “nicer” about it but no less persistent, possibly more so).
All of this is so far afield from the kind of Christianity I was raised on that it’s shocking to me. It’s why usually I don’t engage or get involved. Why start something that you know is going to be a war and probably get you hurt. Why try to mold yourself to something that won’t fit you and doesn’t look like Jesus anyway?
What they don’t realize is that there are many of us who have made this choice to hang out in the evangelical wilderness as imonk calls it. Many. And for every one of us, there have to be dozens or hundreds who look at this circus from the outside and rather than being drawn to Christianity are repulsed by it. Lord have mercy.
“Stephen Altrogge wrote:
‘I’m sorry but this is ridiculous. In my original Tweet I never mentioned Janet Mefferd. Someone else mentioned Mefferd, then somehow I got pulled into it. I don’t know who Janet Mefferd is. I don’t care who she is. I have no beef with her or anyone else. I don’t suppose you’ll take this down, but I feel like I should at least point out that you’ve somehow pulled me into this strange web when I had nothing to do with it. Alright, I’m out.’
The screen shots in the post show you responding to Janet Mefferd via Twitter. Do you often tag those you don’t know?
It certainly appears that you know who she is from reading the Twitter feed.'”
Obviously (and I say ‘obviously’ ironically) there are a plethora of ridiculous comments in this thread directed at Stephen. Since I am sure he has no desire to come back and interact with ad hominem comments ad nauseam, I’ll point out for him the way twitter works…since there seems from the comments above to be misunderstanding. Anyone can tag anyone else in a tweet, and then when you reply to that tweet, they continue to be tagged. So Stephen could be interacting with someone who is not @janetmefferd, and that person could tag @janetmefferd, and the next time Stephen replies @janetmefferd would be included in his tweet.
That is twitter 101.
A cursory glance through stephen’s feed show that his original comment did not tag a single person, and referenced no particular group. It was simply a tweet. Then there are a million (roughly) responses, one of which I see is @RScottClark stating “I included @janetmefferd as a counter example. She’s been attacked for truth telling” indicating that Stephen did not involve Mefferd at all, RScottClarke did.
So..umm..not busted.
For all the talk him being brainwashed by SGM its pretty ironic to see everyone buy into Dee/Deb’s attack on him right away…including no one catching the fact that tweeting a reply in which someone happens to be tagged doesn’t mean you follow that person, or are addressing your comment to them, or even know them.
Nice remarks on his health too…stay classy Wartburg Watch 🙂
Unwanted wrote:
The NIV is my Bible translation, too. 🙂
The Bible says to call no one Teacher, for He is our Teacher. Call no one Father, for He is our Father.
The Holy Spirit and our Bible is all we will ever need.
We are complete in Christ and led by the Spirit. We don’t need anyone to give us their interpretation of the Word, and it’s dangerous ( as we well know ) to sit under their ‘teaching’.
God bless you in your new walk with our Lord. May you come to the full realization of your true freedom in Christ.
I’ll be looking for you on the narrow road. 🙂
~ With love, Sabrae.
Deb wrote:
Thank God! I remember when an entire university could be manipulated by the leader’s controlling the information. Same for large churches. Nice that those days are gone. The “little people” have a voice; same with the formerly employed.
@ dee: except for when they haven’t, and there are some instances of that. But not, to my knowledge, more than a few.
Pam wrote:
You may have put your finger on a fundamental and perhaps intractable problem. Severe abuse in formative years (or in rare cases even after a person has reached maturity) can lead to the subject of the abuse developing a severe personality disorder, such as sociopathy or NPD that literally renders them incapable of empathy. They might fake it up, but they never get to experience the normal range of emotions.
Cultic environments (where scriptures are twisted, leaders switch tactics on a dime without explanation, words take on the opposite meaning from their common use, people are sent sin sniffing after one another, where the needs of those at the bottom, such as children undergoing sexual abuse, are consistently ignored) like Acts 29, MHC, SGM, NFI can in time, particular amongst the young and impressionable, cause disordered tendencies or full blown cases of the disorder. I, for one, have wasted many years and anxious prayers wringing my hands for leaders who not only didn’t care about my pleas for them to reform, but had utter contempt for them and were quite probably incapable of caring.
Some of the people we wish would have empathy may be utterly incapable of experiencing it–their damaged frontal lobes make it impossible.
Marie2 wrote:
He might, you never know. What’s great about it is Matthew B. Redmond is a well-known, well-respected, ex-pastor, soon to be pastor again who is sharing what he’s learned. That may be easier for another ex-pastor to hear him than to hear us, though I hope he listens to both.
Thank you, Marie2, for your kind words. While I don’t know anyone here, haven’t gone to SGM churches, nor have I had to deal directly with the Fiscal crowd, my experience in Calvary Chapel has enabled me to recognize the same underlying issues. The similarities are consistent.
I love how watching how Deebs runs this place, along with the posters’ attention to details, their grace, but most of all the support for victims. It’s easy to feel connected and appreciate one another’s contributions.
Joey wrote:
Yeah, and he’s not a pastor of any sort. He’s a liar trying to twist words, and you’re a liar, Joey, trying to support him.
Joey wrote:
That is an accurate correction. I was just about to share that Stephen seems to have been mischaracterized here.
To add to Joey’s comments regarding Stephen’s twitter feed, here are some hopefully clarifying facts regarding his employment and relationship with SGM.
He did grow up in Sovereign Grace and was a Sovereign Grace pastor, but as someone else mentioned, he is no longer apart (to my knowledge) of Sovereign Grace or a Sovereign Grace pastor. His relationship (and bio) on Sovereign Grace music is based upon his past contributions as a vocalist and songwriter (and needs to be updated). This however, does not constitute (and never has) him being an employee of Sovereign Grace music. Any songwriter can submit songs, but are not considered an employee. He is now (again, to my knowledge) unemployed, and going through a season of trying to figure out what God has called him to do after stepping down as a pastor.
Regardless of your general feelings towards Sovereign Grace and how they have erred, I trust that you all (being people who have identified in some way with or as victims), would do him the common courtesy of extending him understanding during this difficult time in his life. Is he a victim? I have no idea. Is he brainwashed by SGM? I don’t know. But then again, neither do you, right?
Marie2 wrote:
I see it in medium to large Evangelical churches these days. The medium churches that run like a biz are because the pastor sees himself as becoming big. The large churches are just too large to run like a church. The normal checks and balances that would include the congregation are removed due to there being too many people who don’t know what’s going on or who’s who. My own church that has been historically healthy for most of it’s 70 years, is now transitioning into a business. Decisions are made from focus group info. Money is a major motivator and there is LOTS of it!
The leaders see the money as God’s approval and therefore they can continue with their vision and ignore detractors. It’s too bad, because by the time the congregation realizes something is wrong, the original detractors have long been shoved out or dismissed. It takes forever till the money is affected, by then it’s usually too late to change the church culture to healthy again.
@ Erik: have you emailed Deebs about this? I would urge you to do so, just in case they don’t see your comment for a while.
@ John:
All to true.
@ Joey:
Thanks for your comment. I will admit to being a novice at Twitter, and I was not a part of that Tweetfest. However, as an outside observer, Stephen's remarks sound snarky to me.
I do wish the best for him and his family.
@ somebody:
We have already clarified some of your points here in this discussion. I appreciate your comment.
@ Deb:
I think it’s important to note that Altrogge saw absolutely nothing wrong with Driscoll using church funds to buy his way onto the NYT best seller list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PXzjDigkpg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Whatever his connection with SGM, the man certainly has an opinion on these matters. He also pegged Dee and Janet as “watchbloggers.” I don’t believe his comments were so innocent.
It seems like Stephen Altrogge got in over his head on twitter. He’s not the first. Stephen, now it’s time to take your medicine here at TWW, etc. It’s a big boy’s world. When you write books, have a speaker’s platform, and call yourself a “motivational speaker” like you do on Amazon you’ve got to defend every word you speak or write. I had never heard of Stephen Altrogge before today. How can I take him seriously when he says he’s not a pastor and never been one but that’s how he markets himself on Amazon? From his personal blog post about Joel Osteen it seems he wants encouragement. I totally understand that. First, take your medicine. Then you’ll get much better.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Kevin-DeYoung-Book-Launch-Event-at-Covenant-Fellowship-Church.aspx
Kevin DeYoung has authored another book. Carl Trueman will participate with DeYoung and other celebs in a book launch to be held at a Sovereign Grace church.
I just want to say that we should be reflective about “guilt by association”. It is often not a fair assessment of an individual. I was recently corrected about this, and had to confess to God that I get blinded by my past experiences. A brother pointed out that I was treating someone that I disagreed with the same way I had been mistreated once. I was inadvertently discrediting this person. It was a loving rebuke, which I accepted and appreciate.
For what it’s worth.
Paul Recorde wrote:
ROFL-thank you for making our point for us!
Steven Troy wrote:
Good comment.
Erik wrote:
That’s very possible with respect to his initial tweet which said “In a sinful world, anyone can build a platform based on criticism. It takes grace to build based on encouragement.” with no @ or #’s. So it’s not clear what prompted him send this tweet and, unfortunately, he never does say what prompted the tweet, even in his response here where he had ample room to do so.
At any rate, the responses ended up in a back-and-forth regarding the value, or lack thereof, of criticism among Christians. As usual, commenters brought others into the conversation by adding them onto their tweets, which is how Mefford and TWW were brought in. An Stephen is correct when he says “In my original Tweet I never mentioned Janet Mefferd. Someone else mentioned Mefferd, then somehow I got pulled into it.”
But he didn’t get pulled into it, he was a willing participant. He had plenty of opportunity to clarify his intent and it seemed he was opposed to any criticism because every tweet of his in the conversation appeared to be some sort of blanket statement against any criticism which included the following:
“@wartwatch @JanetMefferd Trying to hold everyone accountable is a miserable way to live”
Whatever his original intent was, everyone seemed to take it as being opposed to criticism of Christian leaders and his responses were right in line with that.
Paul Recorde wrote:
You’re treading on very dangerous ground, Paul.
Now, open your Bible and research ‘anointed’. It’s not what your smarmy so-called pastors have taught you it means.
@ JeffT:
Yes. That about sums it up.
@ Paul Recorde:
Spiritual nonsense spew.
@ JeffT:
Which is even more confusing when you consider that he and Barnabas Piper put together videos letting us know what their opinions are regarding Christian leaders, the leaders practices, and those people critiquing the leaders. (See YouTube above.) SO is it okay for Stephen and Barnabas to critique publicly but they seem to believe that others aren’t qualified to do the same?
___
“Da Answer(s) Are Blow’in On Da Blogs, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Carrie wrote:
…long winded comment?
“Host Full Sails”, baby!
(grin)
ATB
Sopy
__
comic relief: Mike Pinera – “Ride Captain Ride”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axvkr1qSS8c
;~)
—
__
“Proverbial Nefarious Religion For Da ‘Birds’, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) has aparrently been clearly identified since at least 2008 as a religious cult masquerading (1) as a legitamant (2) orthodox Calvinist church 501(c)3 non-profit christian ministry.
What?
This group (SGM) has also since been – apparently identified by practices of isolation, mind control, behavior modification, group think, sin sifting, shunning, pursuing leaving/derparting members, silencing dissenting voices,treating women as second class citizens, harboring pedophiles, and possibly pedophile rings, and even purchasing legal assistance for those members who sexually abuse children.
Sovereign Grace Ministries moto?: “…to do all in our power to shepherd the precious people of God with grace, patience, humility, and love.”
What?
Who’s kinda church is this?
“Sovereign Grace Ministries is best known in ‘Baptist life’ for ties between (ed. SGM) founder C.J. Mahaney and leaders in a movement sometimes called “young, restless and Reformed,” a resurgent interest in Calvinism gaining ground at Southern Baptist Convention seminaries.” (3)
“Mahaney, who (ed. fairly) recently resigned as SGM president, planted a church in Louisville, Ky., last year (ed. 2012) when the ministry headquarters moved there from Gaithersburg, Md., in part to strengthen ties to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.” (3)
Q. Has encouraging accountability among 501(c)3 not-for-profit Christian leaders, simply become a lost cause, perhaps?
Q. Doth [their] ‘Orthodoxy’ now covereth a multitude of inconvenient truth(s)?
A proverbial Twilight Zone, perhaps?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y
“Seminary President Albert Mohler has worked with Mahaney on projects including Together for the Gospel, a conference for young pastors, and the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which has offices on the Southern Seminary campus. Podcasts by Mohler are offered in the Sovereign Grace Ministries Store.” (3)
Apparently (SGM) Feather’d associations also include(s) :
Calvinist leaders Kevin DeYoung, Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington and president of 9Marks Ministries. (3)
Are we getting a glimpse of the ‘new’ neo-Calvinist paradigm, perhaps?
…have the proverbial money changers entered the temple, exacting exorbitant returns?
Maybe more than you know?!?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
CRASH!
…might wanna watch you wives, your kids, your wallet, and perhaps your own literal @zz as well, huh ?
(sadface)
“Pensamientos de dejar desaparecer
Cada vez que pulsa este sinsentido
No importa cuánto lo intente
Para entender las razones
¿Por qué continuar de esta manera
Estamos perdidos en un mascarada!” (1) **
(sadface)
Sopy
___
* (1) Comic relief: Lyrics (adapted) : George Benson – “This Masquerade”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuZF_9cLv0Y
Songwriter: Leon Russell ; Lyrics © Chrysalis One Music, Universal Music Publishing Group; Lyrics reflect parody adaptation & use, all rights Reserved, U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement un-intended.
**Eng. Tr. “Thoughts of leaving disappear
Every time you press this nonsense
No matter how much try
To understand the reasons
Why continue this way
We are lost in a masquerade!”
*
Notes:
(1)) ‘masquerading’ : The act of disguising pretense: a pretense or disguise
synonyms: pretense, deception, cover-up, subterfuge, ruse, trick, charade, concealment.
(2) ‘legitamant’ : Acceptable or recognized as genuine, valid, or conforming to established codes, customs, rules, or standards of conduct. See also lawful and legal.
(3) http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/8503-sex-crimes-cover-up-alleged-in-lawsuit#.UzGNw6N5mSM
;~)
—
Paul Recorde wrote:
Paul, you’re coming across rather unhinged; you sound less like a Christian than a full-blown cultist.
It’s astonishing to me that in the wake of all the SGM abuse, the various sites set up across cyberspace dedicated to helping people deal with the aftermath, the cover-ups of child molestation, the class action lawsuit, the documented severe abuse and manipulation encouraged in the small groups, the lies coming from up top that eventually caused even Mahaney to step down, that SGM people wouldn’t be weeping with embarrassment and full of contrition.
But they bring forth these unhinged attacks. I think they doth protest too much. You have to think they’re the convulsive spasms of one who’s watching their God fall. You’ve got the wrong God, Paul and others, it’s not Mahaney, the Local Church, your local leader, the Mission, your idiosyncratic interpretation of God’s word–it’s Jesus. And if you had the right God, or at least were living like it, you wouldn’t blink at the worst sort of criticisms of people on this forum.
Lin wrote:
And Christianese Buzzword BINGO!
This guy talks so SPIRITUAL(TM) I’m not sure he’s attached to physical reality any more.
John wrote:
That is EXACTLY the approach Anthony Hopkins took when portraying Adolf Hitler in the older TV miniseries The Bunker. A control freak who is actually pleasant as long as everyone agrees completely with him and submits.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
As I look back on it, he’s too “perfect”, he’s probably another troll like came blowing through here a week or so ago. I regret even responding too him. Probably a teenage kid making sport.
@ dee:
Oh no. The Evil Vessel. One by one our willing minds are being replaced by an alien life form. “That Vessel is You!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6sAIzostyo
@ Erik:
Hi Erik, I’m not sure what exactly you are saying here about guilt by association, but here is a quote from last August by SA.
If he is still going through rough times I think it would be wise to set up a closed FB group (or do closed twitter feeds exist?) or something of that nature, where he can freely express himself without fear of being misunderstood.
Re-reading this account, he sort of sounds like the kid who was bullied once too many times and is just saying anything to get people to back off. I GREATLY sympathize with such a moment. I inadvertently blurted out that only people who have walked in my shoes can help me, and boy did I pay for that, on another blog.
So while I have not walked in his shoes exactly, I can sort of feel his pain in feeling jumped on, saying something that just caused more criticism, but at the same time, I have been more careful with what I say online, and where I say it.
I will say a prayer for him that he can let go of his celebrity public world for a while, and just go underground. That might appear controlling and unsympathetic, but it’s quite possible that this whole dustup is a sign for him to move away from public ANYTHING for a while.
from
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4216&cp=1
Stephen Altrogge
August 20th, 2013 at 6:30 pm
Hey folks,
Thanks for the kind encouraging words and gentle admonishment. Maybe I could just give a gentle reminder to you as well. Remember that the people you talk about are real people. This was the most agonizing decision of my life. My dad and I were both in tears as we talked through this decision. This has been brutal on my family. And this decision was not made out of loyalty to SGM. Yes, it’s true, as you’ve mentioned, I still believe in SGM. But at this point I have no interest in starting a church of any sort. I honestly have no idea what the future holds for me.
That being said, thank you for praying that God would lead me. I need his wisdom. I trust he will lead me.”
JeffT wrote:
That truly sums it up for me. People who have been in SGM, myself included, can get into such a super defensive mode in conversation, that it would appear that their entire prefrontal cortex got hijacked, and it is just better to step away from the microphone for a while. I have done that in the past and it has done wonders for my recovery from spiritual abuse.
dee wrote:
OK, someone check under Dee’s bed for pods.
From what I saw in the twitter thread, he played passive-aggressive. He was fine with not calling the errors of Driscoll, simply stating those that criticize are choosing to live a miserable life. He must live under a rock if he had no opinion on MD–which we all know he doesn’t. But he “massively criticized” Spurgeon so he’s ok. Maybe he’s only ok with massively criticizing old dead guys because they can’t hurt his bottom line. When if he massively criticized someone current, he would have to sincerely defend the point (which is what is happening by others!). In the end what this says to me is that he is ok with the circle he is in–those hurt and abused by the same system, who cares?
Deb wrote:
What you have shared about your children growing up in SGM has been one of my biggest concerns. I am worried for the next generation coming out of this ‘family of churches’.
Please know that I am praying for you and your loved ones.
Thank you Deb. I certainly appreciate and need your prayers. I believe you do have reason to be concerned. We pretty much stayed out of the bubble and I refused to give up my (gasp!) women’s Bible study. Even with that there are consequences for having been there – 3 of us are in counseling – and I believe that is one of the biggest reasons we are doing so well. I am daily grateful that my children have actually grown stronger in their faith but that doesn’t mean they are “symptom” free.
I appreciate what you said in your other comment about depressed people not taking things out on others. Perhaps Stephen would be wise to give twitter a rest.
@ COR! Real Dupe:
Another Poe-ist with a good anagram!
In other news, my top A is coming along fairly well – managed a passable sing-along to Hammer to Fall in the car tonight!
JadedOne wrote:
YES! The SGM way…I’m not defensive…who are you calling defensive?
@ Joy Huff:
Joy – I am so sorry about your kids. I wish it was different. I will pray for you and your kids.
So Stephen Altrogge called out specific people in public and then got mad when those people “called him out” in return?
Sorry, am I missing something? If he didn’t want to “in the cross hairs” he should not have jumped into the fray. He wasn’t posting “about encouraging,” he was slinging veiled insults that were meant to be snarky and clever and anything but encouraging to the people named in them.
I just feel like his whole demeanor is transparently disingenuous.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Are you a friend of Stephen? One can learn a lot about someone by taking a look at those with whom he/she associates. Your words give us a glimpse into your heart condition.
Meh. Not sure how I feel about this one. Altrogge tweeted stuff that exposed his bias, but none of what he said surprises me at all. I’d say he’s pretty much the direct product of his background. I’ve seen a lot worse stuff come from these people. He was so mild I’m actually a little encouraged it may be getting diluted out of the line.
Last weekend I checked in on the recent online sermons from my former A29 church. I have this morbid fascination with how horrible they are. One of the latest is a message about money, and about how people leave the church whenever they talk about money. [Note: they talk about money ALL the time.] The pastor said all that meant was that these people love money as an idol, and they were just exposing their idolatrous hearts by leaving.
I only have so much outrage. I’d rather focus it on crappy teaching like that then get into it with someone.
To Our Readers
We have offered Stephen the opportunity to come onto TWW to walk back his comments. We have been in touch behind the scenes. Let’s see if he takes us up on the offer.
I told him a story about me. When my oldest daughter was 3, she got out of the car and I turned around to get her baby sister. Thinking she was fully out of the car, I slammed the car door on her hand. We spent the next few hours at an ER and thankfully nothing was broken.
I kept telling her how sorry I was. I bought her two Beanie Babies and endured the stares as she announced to everyone who would listen that mommy slammed the door on her hand and bought her two Beanie Babies. For 3 months, she would always announce when her full body, including hands, were out of the car.
Here is the deal. Everyone knows that I did not mean to slam the door on her hand. What if I had said “You are being unfair. I didn’t mean to do it. Stop making a fuss?” Well, you get the drift. An apology is in order, no matter the intent.
So, let’s see what happens.
Moxie wrote:
So, do the pastors in that church tell you how much they make? Do they buy nice things like Bose speakers for the church?
@ sad observer:
He proved that he knew who I was by the watchblogger comment.
Deb wrote:
Amen!
Anyone who is a true friend of Stephen would help him to disengage from public speech, except to come onto TWW and engage with the hurting, and apologize for being so defensive. My prayers and heart are that he do so, to protect more online dust-ups, and for him to get true healing.
dee wrote:
No the the first question and yes to the second. You nailed it.
@ Moxie:
Apologies if I’ve already asked this (I meant to, but can’t remember whether I actually did), but are you the same Moxie who was famously rediscovered by Ben Stiller’s night guard in Night at the Museum II?
Can any of these guys write an honest book? Here’s the publisher’s description of Perry Noble’s book Overwhelmed:
“Perry Noble has stood at the edge of the abyss himself, and in Overwhelmed, he shares the keys to unlocking the chains of anxiety and despair once and for all. Building on the premise that when we shift our focus from our circumstances to Christ, everything changes, Perry walks readers through a life-altering plan for overcoming stress, worry, depression, and anxiety so we can be free to enjoy the abundant, joy-filled lives we were created for.”
Nowhere does the book discuss visiting a doctor and seeing if medication might help. But wait! Here’s Perry on his blog:
“I remember the very first time I ever had to deal with someone who told me they were struggling with anxiety and depression. I did not understand and could not relate—so, I told them what I thought was the typical “Christian” answer to all problems…they should pray more, read their Bible more and memorize more Scripture.
“I can honestly say that making the decision to take an anti-depressant during this time period in my life has been one of THE BEST decisions I have ever made. It really has clarified my thinking, made me way less of an emotional basket case and allowed me to make better decisions.
I’m not ashamed of the fact I am taking an anti-depressant and have done a complete 180 in regards to how I used to feel about them.”
Apparently ashamed enough not to include it in his self-help book.
http://www.pajamapages.com/perry-nobles-overwhelmed-book-is-dishonest-and-dangerous/
Marie2 wrote:
Marie, don’t we all wish for that? I know I sure do, as I’m often misunderstood.
My point is just that sometimes we put our claws out without provocation. And, I get it. Once bitten, twice shy, right? I’m just pondering the crucifixion a lot this season of Lent. I’ve been thinking about how God would rather die for His enemies than punish them. Loving my enemies is something I miserably fail at. But, love is what I yearn to be most evident from my life.
That being said, I love TWW. Let us all bring everything to the light. Peace!
Paul Recorde wrote:
I assume this is the Christianist version of being called a “religious bigot” and other names by Scientology? (Yeah, I went there.)
Maybe the Deebs should check their neighborhoods for flyers with their pictures on them and “religious bigot” underneath. (Seriously, Scientology did it to me and it backfired spectacularly after I got invited onto a radio show.)
JeffT wrote:
This is truly unfortunate. Evil psych drugs gave me my life back. If I were not taking them religiously, I have no doubt I’d be in seriously bad shape, or, more likely, dead. Instead, I have a decent job, a mortgage, a car and a life, all thanks to an evil psych drug cocktail.
Unfortunately, I’ve heard all too many stories about how believers were told that they shouldn’t take evil psych drugs but instead rely solely on prayer and Bible reading. This is tiresome to say, but they’d never tell a diabetic to forego insulin or a person with kidney disease to stop dialysis. Why is it that brain issues are treated differently?
I went over to the Pajama Pages and I’m glad Dr. Duncan is speaking out about this. Perry Noble is really misleading people and, at the very least, it can cause people in a mild depression to suffer longer than necessary. I don’t even want to consider what Noble’s advice minus medication would do to someone who is more severely and chronically depressed.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
haha. I haven’t actually seen it and didn’t know of the reference, but I just googled it. It’s funny, I’ve always thought I would have liked Amelia Earheart if I had known her 🙂
Erik wrote:
These are good points and I must admit to being exceptionally bad at loving enemies, so we have that in common. But (there always must be a “but” following a sentence that says “good points”, eh?) that same Jesus who died for His enemies because of His passionate love also expressed that passionate love by severely upbraiding the bullies of the day, the religious leaders, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes, teachers of the law, etc. in a manner that in cyberspace we’d refer to as full blown flaming today: snakes, sons of snakes, whitewashed tombs, sons of hell. He told them in a very public forum precisely what He thought of them, no mincing of words there. And He inspired Paul of Tarsus a couple decades later to take up the torch and tell the same crowd he wished they’d just get on with it and castrate themselves!
That’s love too. Just imagine if TWW used language like that to describe the wolves in SGM, MHC, etc.
@ Erik:
Hi Erik!! I agree with you 99.9999%.
The issue I have with SA is that “he started it” and attacked first…then did not answer Janet Mefferd’s request for clarification, or Dee’s for that matter.
Maybe I’m biased but it feels like he wants all the benes of being famous but not the icky part of being misunderstood. I doubt that he is the only celebrity author that this has happened to.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Do people ACTUALLY watch those videos? If so, who?
There are so many of them, and my question is WHY???
marie2 wrote:
It’s rather astonishing to me that he cries “foul” so loudly and runs off at being referred to as a “twit”, it makes him “really sad…just plain unkindness”. Good gosh, that reaction over “TWIT”? That wouldn’t even put a dent in my four year old, he’d grin broadly, say “You’re a twit too” and stick out his tongue. And this grown man, a person who spent years in SGM, a person who’s seen true unkindness, summoning up all this Outrage at that mild little word.
He also implies we called him a “brainwashed idiot” when no one said anything of the sort. But of course, anyone from his (former) SGM congregation who looked at his outrage posts would see that accusation, assume it to be undeniably so, and proceed with that false image.
He needs to repent, face the Christians here who are calling him to task, and deal with it and get over himself. Stephen, come on back, defend yourself, explain yourself.
@ Reformed Berean:
Trueman is a member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. The link TWW gives says that Trueman and Mahaney were fellow members of ACE. I do not know if that is true. Maybe Mahaney was at one time.
LawProf wrote:
Yes! And I agree that prophetic voices as such are so necessary today. That is love. Instead of ignoring the pile of bullshit, love chooses to clean it up so others won’t step in it.
marie2 wrote:
Thanks for the enthusiastic salutation! 🙂
I’m relieved that it isn’t 100%. I’m usually wrong by way more than .0001%!
@ Godith:
Uh…..maybe another bio needs updating, perhaps????
see
http://www.alliancenet.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086_CHID559376_CIID1964624,00.html
C. J. Mahaney
CJ MahaneyC.J. Mahaney was senior minister of Covenant Life Church of Gaithersburg, Maryland from 1977 until 2004. He is an Alliance Council member and is currently the president of Sovereign Grace Ministries, which exists to start, establish, and strengthen local churches with the gospel, for God’s glory. He serves as a board member of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. C.J. is the author of several books, including The Cross Centered Life: Keeping the Gospel the Main Thing, and Christ our Mediator: Finding Passion at the Cross. He and his wife Carolyn live in Gaithersburg, Maryland. They have three married daughters and one son.
Rev. Mahaney’s book Living the Cross Centered Life is available for purchase online by clicking here!
Erik wrote:
Yes error tolerance is hard to measure these days…..especially since the US has not yet moved to the metric system all the way, measurement errors can be tricky to work out. I figure I am way off many times, so it’s best to give others the benefit of the doubt. Thank you for the reminder to treat our enemies with kindness. Hopefully Stephen is not too frightened away from opening up a real dialogue here. Facing bugaboos in my life has helped my bouts of depression tremendously.
LawProf wrote:
Good points. Really!
🙂
But, can we agree that those were prophetic, fully empowered statements? Was there even a bit of speculation?
Marie2 wrote:
That’s the theme of my thoughts, Marie. And, also, I resonate with LawProf that Holy Spirit also leads us to boldly proclaim the most unwelcome revelation at times. It’s not either/or, but both.
@ Erik:
Ummmm oh Dear…
Yes I agree that in Jesus’ case he knew everything.
Do you disagree with Jefft above that SA had multiple opportunities to directly answer the questions posted to him in the moment?
I think he could have saved himself plenty of headaches here if he had noticed that his replies were being addressed to a larger and larger audience, as he got deeper in the fray.
Might have to agree to disagree with you, but I think his code red level of defensiveness does not speak well for someone who wants to be known as an author about Grace
Oh golly gee! Another Wartburg Pigpile! On Steven Altrogge! If you guys only knew how petty, childish, and ridiculous you sound attacking someone like Steven. Let him love SGM if he wants. You know, whether or not you like it, his church is part of the body of Christ. Steven is your brother in Christ–why attack him? What has he done to you?
The very problem with this blog and so evident to seemingly everyone but the regulars, is that you get your jollies out of attacking people. Dee and Deb…ask yourself this….are you really doing this out of totally pure and unselfish motivation? Or are you enjoying the gossip aspect of it, and the “criticizing just to criticize” part of it?
You can’t tell me that you don’t, not with a straight face. I just don’t believe it. Quite awhile back, before I used the name Shato, I posted under another name…can’t remember what…and I was attacked big time for disagreeing with you guys. I said nothing mean or provoking, I simply presented an opposing view. Then I couldn’t remember what named I used, so I used my cat’s name Shato when I came back and you guys googled the name and started accusing me of being something I am am not. You just have no idea how unprofessional it is.
People aren’t going to take you seriously if you can’t just stick to the issues like theology and practice. There is so much speculation and arm chair quarterbacking here is is unbelievable.
And with that I am Pet…oops, I mean Shato
(Lover of the Local Church)
___
Brain-Mis-Fire- “Secret Ambition, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
It must be hard for Stephen Altrogge to crash into the ocean of public opinion from 41,000 feet of a ‘program’d’ SGM religious proverbial cultic koolaid high.
To see his ‘religious kaleidoscope world’ about to receive another magnum jolt dose of possible SGM child abuse cover-up reality?
(Krunch)
Talk about negative ‘encouragement’…
(sadface)
“I hold out for one more drink of SGM koolaid,
Before I think,
I’m look’in way too desperate,
But so far it has not been real fun…
I probably should have just stay’d home…” *(1)
could b.
Sopy
___
intermission: “This Masquerade” – Piano Solo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgoUlZgGrWM
;~)
—
Erik wrote:
Hi Erik,
Can you please expand on that thought a little bit? I think I just got confused with all the recent back and forth between you, LawProf, and me. Ty 4 reminders to be kind!
Shato wrote:
Did you ask yourself the same question before you posted?
Shato wrote:
…and isn’t that the gist of your post? Why are you criticizing? Just to criticize? Really, if you don’t like TWW, feel free to not read.
Shato wrote:
I know I am…..I have had to leave many public ministry opportunities to get my head straight…..I have tried to offer some personal experience here….I heard him plead for kindness on another blog last August…..but then he did not leave the public eye.
I’m not sure how he can have it both ways – wanting to be seen as an Internet voice, but also heal from what sounds like some very personal things that are none of my business and U don’t care to know what they are, and at the same time, he appears to be a complete novice at things like netiquette and Twitter. Can he leave the public eye for a while, or will be risk more damage to his reputation by trying to have things both ways?
Marie2 wrote:
Oops the word is I….
I don’t care to know what they are…
It was perfectly acceptable for SGM leaders like CJ to compare themselves to Apostle Paul….And yet it has been documented more than once that that Apostle had to leave public ministry for 13 years, and he was still publicly criticized after…..What I am frustrated over is the whole SGM mindset of being better than Apostle Paul, but not having to go through what he went through. No one is publicly stoning Stephen….Just asking him to live up to the high standards he has set for others.
@ Reformed Berean:
I updated that-see the post. However, he has written a bunch of posts for TGC. Go over there and do a search.
@ Marie2:
Sure. I have a comment in moderation ( I may have swore! ) that might also illuminate this. Maybe this guy Stephen could have directly responded on Twitter, I see that angle. Maybe he and Dee are discussing that right now offline.
I think honesty and integrity look very different outside of “church”. Where I come from, people have no problem telling each other if they are acting like an a$#hole. Often, it’s welcome medicine, and relationships move on. Christians don’t do each other any favors by avoiding conflict. I’m all for it. I’m all for peeling away all the layers and layers of “politeness”.
I’m just framing all of our interpersonal interactions in the same space. Let the Light shine into the intents and motives of all of us, whether we are the rebukers or being rebuked.
Shato wrote:
Good question for all of us. I will readily say that (to quote an old pastor) even on my best days my motives are mixed. Since you seem to know a lot about “totally” pure motives, perhaps you can give us a few lessons? Such purity is a rarity.
@ Victorious:
That was funny.
@ Victorious:
Jinx! You owe me a Coke! 🙂
Stephen certainly sounds like a boy raised in SGM. They do need constant affirmation. They are groomed to be narcissists and passive agressives. A real pastor though would humbly correct whatever wrong was reported about his tweeting and end it, so I guess he’s not a pastor. The poor guy is probably suffering deep shame right now for even reading this blog, not because he’s been picked on here but simply because he gave into reading the ‘gossip.’ It’s a good start Stephen for deprogramming, please come back.
Erik wrote:
Cool.
I look forward to seeing your moderated post.
In the meantime, I realize now that I was out of the public eye for over 3 years, keeping away from doing something that I absolutely loved, because I saw that I had tissue paper skin when it came to outside criticism. Worked on that issue in many ways, and God restored me last year.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19870609&id=sHxQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hBIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6661,2952956
Is an interesting account of someone who moved away from the public eye to heal from some “stuff.” While I don’t equate Stephen’s issues with adultery exactly, more and more he sounds like he would seriously benefit from a public eye timeout. I don’t know him well enough to state that in a way that he could receive as loving. But I don’t believe it would be loving of me to not bring it up.
There is a wonderful ending to the Gordon Macdonald story. He is now a best-selling author of the appropriately named book, Who Stole my Church? And he has been restored to his wife.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Stole-My-Church-Century/dp/0785230491
Who Stole My Church: What to Do When the Church You Love Tries to Enter the 21st Century Paperback
by Gordon MacDonald (Author)
Erik wrote:
Haha. I now have a comment in moderation, too. Have a great night, ty for reminders to be kind, hopefully this will be resolved soon. Prayers going out to Stephen and his family.
@ Shato:
Oh golly gee! Another random drive-by attempt to shame us for being critical of those who want everyone to see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no matter what greed and/or abuse is being perpetrated by so-called ‘Christian’ preachers.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Holy God Complex, Batman!
Now these troll believe that they can judge the thoughts and intent of everyone’s heart.
__
Un-Professional Poop: “Wet Behind Da Keyboard, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
Shato, people aren’t going to really take you seriously if you keep drink’s da proverbial SGM koolaid.
-snicker-
Sorry, but one search of ‘Stephen Altrogge’ on YouTube, and one getz da sad impression dat he is just another loose SGM cymbal klang’in on da SGM stage floor.
Please, stop eating the crayons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6boxSNc-FIQ
(grin)
ATB
Sopy
—
JeffT wrote:
This.
Stephen Altrogge wrote an article for SGM last year. http://tinyurl.com/mes5cte
In it he praises the Transfer Conference. http://thetransfer.org/
One of the speakers at this conference was Mahaney. I’d like to know if Altrogge is as quick to defend the victims who were (allegedly) abused at SGM as he is to defend his (alleged) abuse here. This post hadn’t been up long before he came to cry “foul.” How long did the (alleged) victims wait for SGM to even acknowledge the lawsuit?
@ JeffT:
Shato sounds a bit like Georgia Hoot and “Truth Teller.”
Marie2 wrote:
For the record, I don’t fault the Deebs here for any Twitter mistakes. They don’t use it as regularly as Stephen does, and so maybe I am not being entirely fair, I know of many radio DJ’s and Internet personalities who use it even more regularly than Stephen does, and they don’t get in these kinds of dustups.
Shato wrote:
Crazy how big name preachers and their blogging allies can do this up one side and down the other. And all their sycophants laugh at the jokes with hearty “Amens!”
But if anyone calls them on this or criticize in return, well watch out! The big names sic their sycophants on us. They get all indignant and “Holier than thou”ish, humph about like they are the owners of the righteous train.
They have no clue how childish and ridiculous they sound.
I’ve been doing some research, cruising the websites of some of these ‘churches’.
They all seem to follow the same misguided doctrines, but of note, those of the Southern Baptist bent all display the pastor with the Bubba Teef grin.
Those of Driscoll’s ilk sport a shaved head and a soul patch for that hipster look. They also appear to have pulled their attire straight from the dirty clothes hamper.
They all wear the same grunge look.
The question is: Is this the way the House of God wants to present itself to a lost world?
I’m not at all surprised they want nothing to do with us.
@ Shato:
PS I have no idea who you are and the PE does not help in the least. Right now, PE stands for pulmonary embolus in my world. We have had millions of hits and lots of water under the bridge since the time you call “before Shato.” I know you usually show up on SGM posts as Shato. See you when we mention SGM again. The Nate Morales trial is looming so I expect to see a lot of you.
@ Amy Smith:
Shato always shows up when we mention SGM. She also showed up once when I discussed a local pastor and a pedophile situation, going for the proverbial jugular. SGM and pedophile cover up-she shows up to defend the "other side." She claims she was around in our early days and that we insulted her then but I do not remember her.
@ JeffT:
Big SGM supporter.
@ Erik:
She shows up (I think its a she)around SGM stuff. She is quite protective of this group. Only an SGM follower would actually think that anyone has pure as the driven snow motives. In SGM that is the pastors who get to tell everyone else what louses they are.
When the Nate Morales trial starts, she (I think) will probably make repeated visits. Although, I think that trial is going to be a difficult one for SGM lovers.
Sabrae wrote:
That grunge look is very, very expensive. To quote Steven Tyler of Aerosmith “I pay a fortune to look this trashy.” The first clue is the shoes or boots. They love to point them out. Lucchese is big. And they cannot stand it when people do not notice their impeccable style and they will slip their brand into sermons just to tell you all how expensively cool they are.
DO NOT GiVE THESE GUYS YOUR MONEY!!
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
No one in the SGM inner circles acknowledges any victims. They one day will have to do that.
dee wrote:
If “BC” means “Before Christ”, does “BS” mean “Before Shato”?
Appropriate…
For Stephen:
I’ve listened to a few pieces by you, linked in comments, including a few of your opinion podcasts with Barnabas Piper. You seem young, a little lost and quite angry. I know that sounds like Grandma talking but I’m that age, so put up with it.
I have sympathy for pastor’s kids, having been one myself, and in your situation, the bubble combined with the “worm” theology combined with the authoritarian structure must be a real mind/heart twister.
I hope you read this, and I hope you will get away from all this for, say, 10 years. Go find an average job and live in the world-out-there. Stay away from the constantly foaming Evangelical scene that you’ve been steeped in. There’s a lot going on in the world that is equally fascinating and has the benefit of freshness and unfamiliarity and will waken you to more possibilities of good thought than you have now.
Please don’t take up any mantle. You are too young and you have too much to process. You need to learn about how ethics function in the larger world, and how love functions out there too. Maybe you’d come back to it in 10 years, who knows, but if you do, you’ll be a wiser man for it.
And BTW, it is NOT ok to misuse the NYT bestseller list. Most authors’ ethics keep them from doing so, and many of them are not Christians. Surely it is embarrassing to be less ethical than unbelievers!
And you are incorrect to say that the NYT doesn’t do anything about it so that makes it ok. Not only is that shabby reasoning for a Christian, but the NYT has indeed made several adjustments over the years to try to curb this kind of behavior.
And truly, it doesn’t matter how important the book might be for saving souls or whatnot, not even if it was the Word of God, the ends do not justify the means.
You have much to learn. That’s fine because learning is tres sweet. But if you don’t learn this stuff for yourself and along with your family, you will certainly not make a good pastor (of any sort), and if you try it anyway, it will bother you, making you more and more strident, and the dissonance will not do your psyche any good at all.
Sabrae wrote:
“If your family tree has not forked since the War of Yankee Aggression…”
Some time ago on The Web, there was this diagram of “Clergy Beard Styles”. One was “The Soul Patch” for Youth Group Pastors.
The diagram illustrating The Soul Patch/Youth Pastor beard style was on a face with jowls, bald with a bad comb-over, and liver spots.
Soul Patch to me brings to mind Al Swearingen from Deadwood or “Dan vs…” from HUB. Neither are a ringing endorsement.
Patti wrote:
As David Miscavage was raised from birth in Scientology?
Patrice wrote:
Sounds similar reasoning to “I got away with it, so that makes it OK.”
Patrice wrote:
Excellent idea. If Paul could stay out of the public eye for 13 years, you could certainly do it for 10.
@ dee:
The light of truth…let it shine.
Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants. ~ U.S. Supreme Court justice Louis Brandeis
Shato wrote:
So if Dee and Deb despised what they do every day, that would make it ok to you? Sounds like wormy theology to me.
Also you might want to check into ideas of journalism, which seems to be a lost skill in the US Christian community. The field has an old saw, “Afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted” and it fits Deebs’ job rather well.
One might think, listening to you, that there aren’t yet enough people blogging theology and practice. You might consider starting one, just to promote proper balance among all the other less “serious” topics that never get discussed.
Bridget wrote:
Their answer would be “yes,” of course.
That’s what frustrates me the most about the Neo-Cals – the hypocrisy and the double standards.
At our old Acts 29 church, we were all beaten over the head with the command “Don’t gossip!” The elders even defined gossip for us: “saying anything negative about anyone when they are not physically present.” Eventually my wife and I discovered that the elders were having “elder-only” meetings at which they were receiving and discussing “reports” from small group leaders, including tidbits on the sins of individual church members. If that’s not “gossip” according to their own definition, I don’t know what is!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Something like this?
http://beautytipsforministers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/602022_587030904659651_301752065_n.jpg
😀
@ Patrice:
As always Patrice you have a way of taking things out of theological worm-holes and shining the flashlight of real life onto them. In my vain life under the sun I have seen, experienced, and heard enough to no longer have the black and white certainty I had when I rejoiced in my youth as a young man.
@ Shato: i thought, from a post of yours way back when, that “Shato” was the name of a cat in an anime series that your daughter liked.
So, ??! Seems your stories change, too. I certainly remember people disagreeing with you in comments here, but attacking you? Nope.
Um, if this pastor didn’t MEAN to bring someone else into the criticism….why not just apologize?
“I’m so sorry that I said you must have a miserable way to live.” It’s not that hard.
I actually called a worship pastor out on sexually harassing behavior, and guess what??? He repented. He changed his behavior towards me and the other women on the worship team by 180 degrees. It was freaking crazy. He had no idea that what he was saying and doing was wrong. The confrontation/discussion was one of the most intense, emotional meetings I’ve ever had (and I’m glad my husband was there with me) but the change over the following year was phenomenal. REAL MEN REPENT, even if they don’t realize they’re doing something wrong.
Um, real women too. Real PEOPLE. Real Christians.
Sabrae wrote:
Yeah. That’s the one.
Stephen Altrogge wrote:
Dear Stephen:
Like the song says, “Here’s a quarter [etc, etc.]” Google it’ yean, & go tweet about Zooey person over at TWW who “just doesn’t understand” you.
signed,
Zooey
Paul Recorde wrote:
I am fresh out of quarters. Will you take a [mostly dead] field mouse? Either of the cats here will give you a quarter for it. (They like to tuck them under my covers when I am half asleep).
Mr.H wrote:
I share the same story, Mr. H. And, when I once wrote a blog post about that sort of “accountability” I was immediately “disciplined” by the “elders”.
Muff Potter wrote:
Yep. “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now”, as Bobby said.
Fortunately I wasn’t tempted with limelight as if it was my birthright (my father wasn’t part of a celebrity bunch and I was feeeemale) so my tumults and undue certainties slid gracefully into the sea of forgetfulness. For which we all sincerely thank God lol
It is not all that easy to find the path of God’s love, but once on it, truth has a tendency to fall into place. I hope Stephen finds it. I am concerned about his depressions.
Marie2 wrote:
Yes! He must have been busy too because he faced a gigantic de/reconstruction, dismantling his ideas of who God is and what He wanted, transforming his self-righteous judgmentalism into a passion for love and clarity, trimming down his over-sized ego and turning his enthusiasm to service, going from being part of a respected educated leadership to hanging with the culturally uncool, the outsiders and strays.
This is so far down the comments that it might not be seen! I haven’t had a chance to read the article, but wanted to comment on the banner about Noble. I don’t know anything about him, except what I read here. However, I do not understand why a person should be shamed for taking medication for depression and anxiety. Even if he use to preach against it, I am thankful when any visible person (especially in the pulpit) supports the use of medication when needed for mental/emotion issues. So many believers suffer, because they believe the lie that depression is only a spiritual condition. I personally would probably be dead without it and was so out of commission that I couldn’t even recognize God. Believe me, from what I have read, Noble would not be anyone I would respect. But for him to come out and recant his former position about medications may save someone’s life! Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your intent. Thanks for all you do. Ann
@ Ann:
I agree with you. I have a HUGE problem with any kind of counseling that condemns the use of medication, and we have addressed this in previous posts, particularly the ones that focus on Nouthetic (aka 'Biblical') Counseling. Were you referring to a specific comment under this post?
Ann wrote:
Ann, you may have misunderstood the intent, at least insofar as my post on the issue goes or perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. Whatever I may think of Perry Noble’s preaching, I wholeheartedly applaud his going public on his blog with his struggles with depression and anxiety and the benefits he received from medication for that. It’s particularly admirable given the ridiculous and dangerous belief among some in the evangelical camp that taking medication for depression and/or anxiety is not a medical condition but a sign of spiritual weakness that can simply be overcome by ‘believing’ better.
The tragic part of it is that Noble goes on to write a book on how believing can overcome issues including depression and anxiety but utters not one word about the fact that medication can be an essential component of that as well for some as his own history demonstrates. Here was a perfect opportunity for him to discuss the hysterical prejudice against medication by some evangelicals and discuss how the fields of medicine and faith can work together to improve lives.
Instead, for some unknown reason, Noble utters not one word about how the medical field can be of help and, instead, leaves the same old tired impression that any mental illness can be overcome by belief DESPITE his own experience. A wonderful opportunity was missed and it’s sad and somewhat disingenuous on his part to have done this.
JeffT wrote:
Yes, and he was writing this book while he was discovering the value of medication. Why would he leave out such a fine God-given chance to introduce as-it-happens learning? I can’t help but wonder whether he was afraid of Evangelical-wide pushback, and left the shaming mechanisms in place in order to avoid dealing with it.
Mara wrote:
From what I can tell, this is the nonsense that has come out of a certain “family of churches.” Imagine putting up with this every week!
Mara wrote:
They have no idea because they are urged to stick with their own little huddles to protect themselves from the outside world. Note even the comment of “Lover of the Local Church.” I guarantee you that she isn’t. She will be “Lover of a Certain Kind of Local Church.”
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sad part of this is that she (or he) thinks I really know who she is from years ago by giving me two letters. BTW-HUG_ I have been waiting for you to riff on the name Shato. Those guys were Chinese soldiers from a distant past whose duty it was to protect China from being invaded by the hordes.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Touch not the Lord’s annointed eh? I guess one should remain silent about many “Pastors” to include Rev Jim Jones and David Koresh.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Praying the God in His sovereignty will give you the spiritual discernment you are obviously lacking.
@ Paul Recorde:
Poe, troll or delusional? Hard to tell sometimes.
Uh Paul,
When the Old Testament prophets got it wrong, there were quite serious consequences.
You actually sound like you’re just having a bit of fun. However on the chance you aren’t, you might want to look up God’s rules for his prophets, if an OT profit lied, it wasn’t pretty.
@ Paul Recorde:
Attacking the anointed bloggers here is something that you have done as an agent of evil. Defending your evil pastor makes you a tool of the devil as well. Mark Driscoll is a wolf in sheepskin, an agent of the devil posing as a Christian pastor, enriching himself and kicking believing pastors out of Mars Hill to replace them with yes men who will serve his evil purposes. He is a liar, a cheat, a plagiarist, a thief taking tithes and using them for his own benefit, a heretic who trashes the Bible, etc.
Paul Recorde wrote:
So does that make it okay to physically assault people, or ask God to strike down children too? Because prophets also did that. I would also love to see this “crude” nature shown from some prophets in the New Testament. Oh wait, that’s where Jesus says to love you enemies, not throw them under a bus. Guess we better ignore that part if the book.
Erik wrote:
You mean my statements, or ones made by others on TWW? Bit of speculation? Perhaps not fully empowered, not Spirit led? Honest to goodness, Eric, I don’t know, I often can’t tell what’s truly prophetic and of the Lord and what’s just me speaking out of my own bias or past hurts or plain stupidity. I think I’m right about what I’m saying, otherwise I wouldn’t say it. But I am absolutely not certain.
Thank you everyone for explaining the banner comment. I did not realize that Noble did not mention medication in his book. By withholding this information in his book, he implies it is shameful and weak to use psychiatry and medication. I know nothing about publishing, but I wish he would have revised or added a chapter to the book when he decided to acknowledge his own struggle. The biggest gift he could have given his readers is the hope that there is help for suffering, and mental health issues do not reflect your value in Christ! Ann
JeffT wrote:
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
Shato wrote:
Having experienced SGM leadership personally and directly, having seen the effects on a true group of (mostly) believers and the utter destruction that resulted (a growing, relatively vibrant church simply ceased to exist) in my opinion there is a great deal of question as to whether SGM is in any meaningful way part of the Body of Christ. There are undeniably true members of that Body within SGM, as there are within most churches that are basically orthodox, but my experience and that which has been confirmed for me by the stories of many others is that SGM is, in essence, not part of the Body, but rather an organization that exists to abuse the Body, often led by those who are likely, based on fruits, not genuine Christians.
I believe based on experience and history that SGM is one of many vehicles in existence today that enables wolves to attack the true Church.
So, “whether or not you like it”, I reject your first premise completely.
Shato wrote:
This is really the point we’re trying to make to you, and those like you, you’re likely one of those in an insular environment (“Lover of the Local Church”–if only you knew how precisely those loaded words identify you), your issues, and those of your compatriots, are so evident to those outside it.
Shato wrote:
I understand your desire to place this on what you believe to be safe ground–doctrine. What I don’t understand is why you’d wish to open the Pandora’s Box of “practice”. Coming from an obvious proponent of SGM, it’s astonishing. The practice of SGM would seem to be the crux of the issue–need I go on? And it is precisely that practice that is at issue. Stephen seems to be exemplifying it, and it’s that practice for which he’s being called to task.
@ Amy Smith:
This is one of the reason that I let comments like Shato’s and Paul’s through. They are a great example of what we are talking about here. Can you imagine going to a church in which these people have any sort of influence? It is people like this that drive others away from the church.
The “Nones” statistics are fascinating. Of the ones who have left the church and claim no religious affiliation, a goodly number say they still have faith. There are many who hang around this blog. We played around with a number of stats and have discovered that as many as 17 million appear to be people of faith who have gotten the heck out of the church.
These numbers have drastically increased since the late 90s. What happened during this time? An increase in the marginalization of women by the SBC along with the hardliners in the Neo Calvinist movement. The church is shrinking under the watch of the “gospel™”movement.
LawProf wrote:
Hi LawProf.
I’ve enjoyed your comments here on many threads lately. But (yes, here’s the “but”) your comment quoted above seems particularly harsh. As Eric pointed out, Joey is actually correct about the twitter messages. And I think a couple of other folks agreed with his analysis also. As do I.
It appears that Joey was honestly trying to help clarify what had happened in the “twitter war,” because the confusion had led to some incorrect assumptions and conclusions. Would you consider apologizing to Joey for calling him a liar?
Big Blue
I have put a couple of the actual Tweets up on the page. As you will see, he is responding to @wartwatch and @janetmefferd with no other handle on that. He was responding directly to us at this point. And he knew exactly who i was by his comment about watchbloggers.
Mr.H wrote:
Oh naïve one, you do not understand, as they are God’s anointed (even though they are Utterly Depraved) they cannot, by definition, engage in “gossip”.
__
“A New Day Has Come!”
Dee: [Asks A Question] “How (ed. does) Charisma News, Mark Driscoll and Sovereign Grace Ministries Intersect With Janet Mefford” ?
hmmm…
INHO – Noting that two major religious 501(C)3 non-profit corporations (ed. questionable neo-cal church ministries), Mars Hill and SGM, are currently under fire, for various reasons, Wartburg, I surmise the present connection is the future jeopardy of ‘Book Publishing Profits’, and ‘Brand Name Degradation’. Both 501(c)3’s are taking on significant amounts of water. A proverbial ballast compromise is on the horizon for other religious 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporations as well…
Let Janet Mefford go, In the name of Jesus!
-snicker-
Music Clip: Passenger- ” Let Her Go”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBumgq5yVrA
🙂
Janet Meffort: “Jesus is safe in my heart…therefore, My Heart Will Go On…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KBQLgeKRbg
***
Bonus:
When you call’d for me,
When Your Spirit breathed,
I got wings to fly,
By your words (Jesus) , I was made alive!
When you walk with me,
I can touch the sky,
(You smile upon me)
I know that Im alive,
Mmm, oh, ahh !
I get wings to fly,
Cuz God, You have made me alive.
When you bless the day,
My troubles just drift away,
All my worries die,
I’m glad that I’m alive !
I get wings to fly,
Cuz God, You have made me alive.
You’ve set my heart on fire,
You’ve fIll me with Your love,
Mak’in me just like You,
From Your heaven above !
I get wings to fly,
Cuz God, You have made me alive.
That you’ll be the one standing by,
(My heart takes flight)
Through good and through trying times,
(Oh, joy!)
And that this life has only just begun,
Blessing me from the tree of life…
I get wings to fly,
Cuz God, You have made me alive.
When I call upon You,
(You hear my cry !)
Your Spirit sets me free,
I get wings to fly,
By your words, I am made alive!
Ohh !
I get wings ta fly,
Cuz God, You have made me alive! **(1)
(smiley face goes here)
ATB
Sopy
____
** (1) lyrics adapted. Celine Dion – “I’m Alive”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLtT86pauWI
Songwriter(s): Kristian Carl Lundin, Andreas Mikael Carlsson; Lyrics copyrighted © Kobalt Music Publishing LTD., Warner Chappell Music, Inc. All rights Reserved.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/im-alive-lyrics-celine-dion.html
Adapted lyrics above reflect parody use, U.S. Title 17 copyright infringement un-intended.
;~)
—
I’ve lost any rational thought toward the vile, evil, rude, obnoxious Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney or John Piper. They are, in reality, children of the devil. I hope I live long enough, to see the day, when the truth about their spiritual, and emotion illnesses are exposed! It took 30 years to expose Billy Gothard, but maybe with social media being what it is today, we’ll discover the truth about these three creatures. Their theology, their “ministries” and their lives, and their mutual admiration, ALL scream sexual dysfunction!! But what’s sad is that there are so many young, impressionable men who strive to become like them. Destroying their own ministries, families, and personal lives. And how many women, are convinced by their daddy’s that these are the sorts of men they should marry?! So they fall in love with boys who are wanna be(s)!! Then they end up in marriages where they’re put into roles of child bearing, and total submission, fear, disappointment, and frustration.
Forgive my rant…but I’ve just been associated with too many men and women, who’ve fallen into the trap of wanting to be “celebrity” pastors. Ministries, world evangelism, and families are torn apart, and Satan sits back and laughs. 🙁
TO OUR READERS
@ Erik:
Please look carefully at the tweets I posted. I actually posted his initial statement so I was not trying to hide the fact that his initial comment was generic.
Now look at the one which was directed specifically to Janet and me. If he was just being pulled along, there would be other handles on that reply. He did what I do when I want to specifically respond to certain people. I erase a handle or two.
I asked him a a question. He did not answer and continued his comments on criticism. If you follow the thread which you can do on Twitter, he even blew off the Driscoll comment. To show that he knew at least one of us, I included the comment about the “watchbloggers.” In fact, he does not deny that he knew who I was.
What I meant by “he started it” is this. If you see the tweet in the post, he directed his criticism comments to Janet and me. At that point, it became a discussion between us. He started that. I am sorry that I did not make it clearer.
Now, I have been talking with him offline. I cannot divulge what he told me but his initial comment had someone else in mind. If that is the case, our comments still make sense.
I believe that Stephen is sorry for the way that conversation went and he is trying to make amends. I will update the post to reflect that. I appreciate that he is making the effort.
But I do want to make this point perfectly clear. He was discussing criticism by bloggers and other social media. His initial comment does reflect that. Nothing really changes in my assessment in general in this post. There is a concerted effort on the part of many to try to counter the effect of blogging which has illuminated the problems in many ministries such as SGM, Mark Driscoll, Steven Furtick, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips and on and on.
I hope this makes sense.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Stop trolling, you’re just going too far with this benighted cultist schtick, need to at least make it somewhat plausible.
Big Blue Fan in Asia wrote:
I disagree. Please see my comment above.
dee wrote:
Thanks for this clarification. I had mistakenly thought you were saying that @stephenaltrogge had started that whole discussion with his initial tweet. It is clear that he was just tweeting to the great twitterverse initially. Then @RScottClark tagged Janet into the discussion. And then it looks like you saw the conversation on Janet’s twitter feed and decided to join in yourself. Is that right? Then when you and Janet were asking him questions, he was responding directly to you. That’s what it looks like to me, but I appreciate you setting the record straight if I have it wrong.
Paul Recorde wrote:
Mark Driscoll doesn’t even get the Bible right. He doesn’t even understand the Word of God and can’t teach it without putting a very Drisconian spin on it. I’ve heard those that have left his church mention that it is hard for them to even read the Bible anymore because all they hear is Driscoll’s angry, puffed up voice.
An actual prophet, OT or NT, would have a far better grasp on the Bible that Driscoll has displayed. An actual teacher would not make the huge mistakes that Driscoll makes. And an actual teacher wouldn’t base entire teaching and even series on these foundations of mistakes like Driscoll has.
He is no prophet. He’s out to make a profit on those he has fooled into believing that he is a prophet.
dee wrote:
I and my family are among them. We chewed up and spit out by a neo-Cal church headed up by two former SGM leaders. We have run from the church as it now stands and we may never go back–though I can’t predict the future. This does not mean we no longer believe that Jesus is Lord and God, or that we don’t still worship Him and meet with other believers. We just don’t do it within the confines of the same four walls each week.
We’re even beginning to wonder if the “church”, as led by the current crop of self-appointed “messiahs”, has not become part of that evil force that Jesus spoke of that would “deceive, if possible, even the elect”.
@ Ann:
@ Ann:
I used to have depression and took medications for it (meds didn’t work for me).
Noble is not really defending the use of meds, however.
Please read the PJ blog page someone above linked to – Noble is saying one thing on his blog (being pro meds) but then turning around and saying directly opposite (anti med) things in his sermons and in his book.
In sermons and/or the book, Noble says “God alone” got him thru the depression and that depressed Christians “don’t need another pill.”
This, in spite of this fact that in his blog posts that Christians need to stop saying “God alone for depression is all you need” and “Christians who say you do not need pills are wrong.”
Noble is speaking out of both sides of his mouth on this topic, goodness only knows why.
CORRECTION: “We WERE chewed up…”
Paul Recorde wrote:
And what about all the accusations that Driscoll has made against God’s anointed ones, including the ones he three under the bus?
(Is being thrown under the bus the 21st century version of being stoned? As in death by stoning?)
Again, I’m sorry to have to point out for those too thickheaded to see the facts.
Driscoll cast the first stones. He was the FIRST “Accuser of the Brethren” long before most of us even had him on our radar.
If Driscoll didn’t want stones thrown at him, he shouldn’t have started it and he sure as heck shouldn’t have thrown so many godly and anointed men and women under his Mars Hill bus.
This is a different topic, WtH posted last night that all the “driscolized” sermons have now popped up at the logos site to BUY. Why would MD do this? There has to be a reason because if he was actually a “A nobody trying to tell everybody about Somebody”, he would be wanting to reach out to all with God’s word. Is this a way to sift out his real followers, or is the pocketbook starting to hurt?
LawProf wrote:
I’ve wondered this myself.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to think this is a possibility.
@ Big Blue Fan in Asia:
I jumped in to defend Janet. I am terribly concerned about the recent “enemy within the church” stuff which I am also dealing with behind the scenes with little success.
I know the Twitterverse is difficult. I have had to walk back a couple of comments which made little sense. But i do try to make sure that I am directing my comments to the right people. Until recently I have limited my tweets to news. However, things are rapidly changing and I often find out about stuff far more quickly by following folks on twitter.
I think Stephen understand how this all played out and hopefully he has learned a lesson. Like I said, I have been corresponding with him. he actually is the one who reached out first-to his credit.
Daisy wrote:
Three possible explanations:
1). He is extremely confused and not thinking rationally;
2). He is thinking rationally and as a leader in an environment where brainwashing is sine qua non to staying in power, he is using a common tactic for carrying this out (i.e., saying one thing, then saying the exact opposite without explanation, which leads to confusion and mental exhaustion among the flock);
3). He is simply a full-fledged hypocrite and exists in a milieu where a leader never is called to task and required to explain the inconsistencies.
Big Blue Fan in Asia wrote:
That is correct. In fact, it was during those tweets that I became concerned. Initially he was asked questions both by Janet and myself. Then he responded. Those tweets came to us. He did know who I was. I can assure you that I do not have a good reputation in SGM circles.
@ Patrice:
“It is not all that easy to find the path of God’s love, but once on it, truth has a tendency to fall into place.”
++++++++++++++++
the Textbook has very little to do with it. afterall, Jesus is a human being just as knowable as the people I call my pals. can’t imagine going around with my nose in a book in order interact with them.
(and God is a person, just without skin on. Holy Spirit, certainly knowable — exactly what “spirit” is defies definition, though.)
@ LawProf:
Have you read Dr James Duncan’s Holy Rage at the Spring? Please forgive me if I have already said this.
http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/
It is a sickening portrayal of what goes on at the church. I have always thought that there is some sort of madness over there.
@ Patrice:
Another thing too is that he’s a preacher.
I am not against people sharing their learning experiences with others, that is not what I mean.
I sometimes share stuff (on this blog and other places) I’ve been through personally as well as solutions that have helped me if I feel it may be of help to another reader.
But many of these preachers (as has been discussed on previous threads) are not qualified on these subjects but try to pass themselves off as they are.
Noble is not a psychiatrist or psychologist. Preacher Rick Warren some months ago released a “Diet like Daniel” book or whatever, but the guy is not a dietitian or doctor.
I think preachers should stick to stereotypical preacher duties (e.g., giving sermons about religious topics, presiding over funerals) and leave the medical, health, and psychology topics to the actual, trained professionals of those topics.
They are trying to pass themselves off as Renaissance Men, experts on a little bit of everything, and then they write sermon series and books about all these various subjects and charge people for the info to boot. It’s a pet peeve of mine.
Why would you need a book by a preacher about depression anyway? It’s a waste of money. He should not be writing one and marketing it. I don’t need Noble telling me about depression or how to get treatment for it, or how to deal with it.
BTW, for years and years, I had depression (I was diagnosed by psychiatrists at a young age), and during those years, I read volumes by Christian authors about depression, and the vast majority of those books did nothing to help. Most of the books give fluffy, vague and/or spiritual sounding platitudes, and some dismay the use of secular psych and medications – but even the ones that are OK with the use of meds are sappy and not very helpful.
One way I escaped depression was doing a lot of research work on google, where I found tons of free information about depression and related topics, by Christians and Non Christians. There are professional psychologists and psychiatrists who have blogs out there, or their stuff is posted for free on online psychology journals.
You really do not need to give Perry Noble $20 for a book about depression to get help.
@ JadedOne:
He’s been selling his sermons forever. But to delete some and continue to sell them….
LawProf wrote:
Thank you for saying this. You help, sadly, to confirm my suspicions that this Neo-Cal crowd is contributing to the decline in church attendance. You are not alone as you can see on this blog.
I left a church over a mishandled pedophile situation but the pastor also greatly admires this crowd.
Dee: “There is a concerted effort on the part of many to try to counter the effect of blogging which has illuminated the problems in many ministries such as SGM, Mark Driscoll, Steven Furtick, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips and on and on.”
There does seem to be something going on. In the UK Newfrontier’s main blogger Adrian Warnock recently did a similar thing, supporting Mark Driscoll whilst complaining about a letter to his congregation being put on the internet – this is recently on Patheos. Because it is relevant to this issue I am quoting it here in full:
“Is the concept of privacy and discretion dead even among Christians?
March 19, 2014 By Adrian Warnock”
“This week there has been another stirring in the Christian blogosphere. A sometimes controversial church leader wrote a letter which he wanted to remain private to his congregation. One of his critics obtained a copy of that letter and leaked it onto the Internet. I was aware of this, and like some other bloggers and official journalists, I requested the church to confirm whether the letter was genuine, and asked for their permission to share the correspondence on my blog.
The church declined. They also stated they did not want the letter to be circulated online. I must admit that I did tell them I thought that was a mistake, but I chose to respect their decision anyway. What happened next surprised me.
Several major Christian news outfits covered the letter. And so did many respected Christian bloggers. By now you probably know exactly what I am talking about, but I ask you not to reveal that in the comments section below. Lets keep to the specific questions that I pose in this article. The letter did not contain any scandalous revelations that have a true “public interest.” It was a pastoral letter. I confess that I did read it. But, without the consent of the author, I did not feel I should share it. Am I old fashioned on this point? Is the concept of privacy and discretion now dead even among Christians? How would you feel if someone posted one of your own private emails to the internet and then everyone else started sharing it? Jesus tells us ”So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 7:12).
What does “gossip” mean in a modern context? What are the boundaries of what it is acceptable for someone to blog about concerning a public figure? Obviously there is a place for calling out serious sin, or for correcting false teaching. But posting this private letter did not do either of those things.
How reasonable is it for a pastor of a large church to expect the members of that church not to share personal correspondence online? Should we, who are not members of that church, expect the church to communicate major decisions with the rest of us? Is it wiser for the pastor of a large church to simply release any correspondence intended for members to the public simultaneously?
One thing is for sure, every one of us needs to be very aware that whatever we write in an email, or any other document, can today with a click of a button be shared online. It may not be morally right. But it is a reality.
I urge you to consider carefully how you phrase everything you write. Imagine that what you say is being cc’d to your harshest critic, to a hostile blogger, and to a lawyer who is trying to construct a case against you. And don’t think that simply having a conversation is safe. It is the simplest thing in the world to record a conversation then post it online. In many countries it is illegal to do so without the other persons consent. But, in the time it takes to involve law enforcement, the damage could be done.
When Jesus said, “Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops” (Luke 12:3), he was referring not to an age of modern technology and the time of wikileaks.
He was talking about the time of judgement. His judgement.
There are very few times when it is appropriate to share in public something that happened in private.
Rather than creating a lynch mob online for every single perceived fault, there are many things that we should leave to that Day to be revealed.
This is not an excuse for covering up major sin.This is not a denial of the importance of real accountability for church leaders within the context of their local church, and whatever denomination or network of churches they are part of.
This is not a repudiation of Matthew 18, which is meant to occur within the context of a local church. The point here is that when a believer has sinned repeatedly, and has refused correction privately, then with one or two others, that the church should be informed, and discipline should result. We have no business parading other people’s sins outside this context, and to do so is indeed gossip.
I do feel that it is increasingly vital for churches to have some kind of affiliation with other churches, and for pastors to genuinely be held to account. Perhaps the failures of many of these organisations to provide a proper process for grievances to be dealt with has contributed to the current idea that the Internet community should decide in a form of mob rule. But who made you and I judge, jury, and executioner over the entire World?
– See more at: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2014/03/is-the-concept-of-privacy-and-discretion-dead-even-among-christians/#sthash.PghfqSyl.dpuf”
In a comment, I tried to point out that Adrian Warnock was not seeing the larger picture and also had not made it clear that he is a friend of Mark Driscoll and not as he positioned himself in the article, an independent journalist. I also complained about his language, for example, calling people who complain a lynch mob. But my comments were taken down quite quickly, I am not sure why. I take this as showing people are rallying round to support their heroes, but doing what they seem to do always, ignoring and minimising the very serious issues. They don’t want to hear an alternative narrative.
Paul Recorde wrote:
So you are calling the Apostle Paul satanic and the “Accuser of the Brethren”?
Paul wrote, 1 Cor 5,
And I suppose Jesus was satanic and an accuser of the brethern also, when he called out the bad behavior or false teaching of the religious guys of his day, when he said stuff about them, such as is found in Matthew 22?
Or, Jesus’ words in Matthew chapter 23, to or about the Pharisees,
I guess Jesus was mistaken to publicly speak out against the harmful actions against people and the distortions of Scripture by the Pharisees?
@ dee:
Hey Dee. Thrilled to hear that you and Stephen are talking and working things out. That’s excellent.
dee wrote:
Listen, don’t you all lose heart now. TWW has become a much needed resource for lots of folks, including me. I’m disgusted by this stuff too, and really glad you all continue to shine the light on the messes when necessary.
I had been combing the web for information on the SGM scandals to get myself up to speed here, and came across this;
This site, called Glass Pastor, was written by a Senior Pastor who was booted out of his large church for telling the truth from the pulpit ~ That today’s institutional church bears absolutely no resemblance to the first churches in the Bible, and that what we have now took shape 500 years after the death of the Apostles.
He says the churches today, the large ones anyway, are corporations with the Senior Pastor the CEO, and he lived that role for many years. He says he found God when he left the church.
Anyway, here’s the link, and I hope you enjoy his thoughts as much as I had.
http://theglasspastor.wordpress.com/2012/06/
And by the way, this SGM mess is appalling. How can people be so gullible?
Ann wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse (I already discussed this above), but to emphasize, I don’t even think the entire problem is that he left benefits of meds out in his book, IMO, a slightly bigger problem is his hypocrisy. On the one hand, in some sermons or blogs, he says medications are awesome, and he advises Christians to use meds, but then he turns around in other material (his book or other blog postings/sermons) and says, “meds are terrible, you should only use prayer and faith alone to conquer depression.”
That is what kills me. That he neglects to mention in his book he used medication is terrible, of course, but the hypocrisy is what sticks in my craw, he “flip flops” on the subject.
One minute, he tells Christians in Venue 1 that meds are great, but then in Venue 2, he talks smack about meds, saying real Christians only use prayer to make it through the day.
I won’t get into it here, but there’s one other pretty well known Christian who flips flops on this topic too… one minute he’s condemning meds and psychology, a few years later, he’s down with meds and shrinks, but then years later reverses course again to say “meds/ shrinks evil, “real” Christians only turn to Jesus in times of distress.”
dee wrote:
And such groups, instead of realizing this (or even caring) and then re-adjusting how things are done, are tightening the reins even more.
Like on the gender issue, they are clamping down even harder on gender roles, thinking that will solve some problems, but it’s actually driving some folks away.
They also continue to ignore 44% of the population (adult singles). They live in this era that it’s 1952, everyone marries by age 23 and has three kids by age 28. So, church ministries and programs are modeled to meet the needs of married people who have kids at home.
It’s to the point that middle aged married couples who have adult children have noticed this and have stopped going to church. Some lady did a series of blog posts about it here – 40 and older in the church.
If you look for her older posts on the topic, she did some surveys and polls and interviewed people and found lots of over 40s (married with kids in college) have stopped going to church, and they explain why (and it’s because churches only cater to kids and to married couples who have small kids).
dee wrote:
I’ve not been commenting often lately because I’ve been in the middle of a book writing project. But I thought I had something worth saying on this topic, and so here it is.
Something else of relevance that overlaps with this same time period (late 1990s onward) is the significant expansion of church planting. As far as I’m aware, it was already gaining momentum from the early 1990s onward, and then came the advent of the “GenX” and “Postmodern Ministry” movements in the mid-1990s. It makes sense in retrospect that these amplified one another, as GenXers (born 1965-1982) were typically being marginalized by by the Builder (born pre-1946) and Boomer (born 1946-1964) generations in church leadership. There were various kinds of experiments in those days, but at the moment it seems these orbit around three focal points:
* Postmodern ministries/worship services with GenX-friendly music – sometimes with older leaders trying to be more relevant, but that often turned out more like modernist leaders in “postmodern drag.”
* Church-within-a-church, where there was a sort of parallel universe in a traditional church only with GenX/young leaders relatively at the helm. But more often than not as I recall, the main church body and leadership remained in charge. They could (and sometimes did) pull the permission and funding, because, as the argument went, “this is a MINISTRY of our church body, not its own church!” So that was typically tenuous.
* Church planting, where next-generation leaders could strategize and lead and plant for themselves, be in control of the funds that came in. But they often excluded older generations, whether through omission or commission, and rarely do church planters in their 20s and 30s have the life experience to lead wisely.
So, no surprise that church planting and “emerging ministry” often merged. For instance, the Acts 29 church planting network started in 1998.
But, in my opinion, too many church planters were UNqualified for leading a church by reason of lack of spiritual maturity or skill development. And they would be DISqualified quickly if they used their same tactics from “leading” a church if they were CEO of a business, because a lot of those business start-ups would epic-fail.
Bringing it all back to the “nones,” I have to wonder how many people are now in the “none” category of spiritual but with no specific religious or denominational affiliation, because they had horrific experiences in conventional churches that marginalized anyone other than traditionalists, and perhaps equally disappointing and/or abusive experiences in these experiments (and especially church plants). Church plants often are controlled through a combination of charisma and legalism, both of which can be incredibly damaging to the everyday disciple who just wants to follow Jesus … at least initially … but ends up being pimped by a system that requires consumers for their brand.
FWIW, my observations and opinions are based in my own experiences of serving with nearly a dozen church planting and ministry start-ups, starting in 1995. I was also getting connected with the GenX-Postmodern ministry and Young Leader’s Network movements as early as 1996, plus I was a certified Level 1 church planter candidate assessor and did a number of assessments in the early 2000 decade. So I’ve been watching this from insider and outsider perspectives for nearly 20 years.
That is where my intense concern comes from for the entire paradigm of mental models and ministry methods at the root of Mars Hill and Acts 29. Even if the current top leaders exit these organizations, the infrastructure and cultures created by that paradigm will remain. So, in my understanding, “repentance” at Mars Hill and its many networked connections will require a deep paradigm shift in ways of thinking, organizing, and relating – not simply replacement of some surface-level behaviors. This comment from a few weeks ago may be worth looking at in light of different paradigm layers that will need to be addressed. If you’re following the Facebook page of the movement to exonerate some of the former Mars Hill pastors, you’ll see people are talking about various aspects of all four elements:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/03/11/how-mark-driscoll-could-have-banked-500000-with-his-investment-of-church-money/#comment-134696
Good observations futurist guy.
@ Peter:
How private was Driscoll’s so-called letter, really? It is my understanding it was an electronic document posted to the church’s members-only (of which there are hundreds or thousands?) Facebook group or web site group.
It’s not as though Driscoll hand-wrote a heart felt letter with deeply personal information on a piece of parchment paper using a quill pen and sent it by Pony Express to his dear friend Ralph, and the Pony Express rider was mugged and the letter posted on a bulletin board in a town square.
You might want to check out this essay posted earlier today at The Gospel Coalition. To say the least, the timing is interesting.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/03/26/why-you-must-pursue-church-unity/
Daisy wrote:
Everyone knows that anything posted to the web, which is a public domain, is fair game.
Driscoll knew exactly what would happen when he posted that, which is why it was so carefully worded.
Not only does he offer a half-hearted apology, but he also lays out a new direction he is taking, which in his view, covers his multitude of sins to squelch the controversy.
And most importantly, it puts his aging hipster mug back into the spotlight, right where he wants it.
Peter wrote:
Thanks for the info! Proof that it’s just another post by a fanboy to stifle any discussion critical thinking and discussion of inappropriate words and/or actions of a celebrity preacher. Warnock’s claim that his post “is not an excuse for covering up major sin.This is not a denial of the importance of real accountability for church leaders within the context of their local church, and whatever denomination or network of churches they are part of” is a hollow one. The whole point of his post is that what goes on within a church is “private” and is not to be shared with the ‘outside world’, which is a whole lot of male bovine dung. When you’re a minister calling to the public to join your church and give you money, what you say in and how you operate your church is a public concern, particularly when you make whatever you want widely and publicly available.
LawProf wrote:
4) All of the above.
As for (2), this is a continuing background theme of Orwell’s 1984 (closely based on actual events in Stalin’s Russia), where the Regime would rewrite history to its own advantage on a near-continuous basis. Sometimes (also based on an actual event when Germany invaded Russia in 1941) flipping the Eternal Party Line one-eighty in mid-sentence.
@ dee: If the legions of the devil make you of ill-repute in their circles, you should wear that as a badge of honor, for God knows the difference.
@ An Attorney:
Referring to Dee saying: “I can assure you that I do not have a good reputation in SGM circles.”
Wow.
This was linked at Throckmorton’s in the comment section.
It’s a year old but somehow, I’ve missed it.
It’s about that dern elephant room where those dern elephants tamp around felling all self-important and un-sissified.
Sorry if you all have already seen this. But I guess I have to share my disgust somewhere. (the disgusting part starts at 52)
http://vimeo.com/59137572
@ An Attorney:
Thank you. I shall. I always support the victims since it appears the pastors, as you have seen, have their supporters.
@ Mara:
I saw that when they filmed it but it has taken on a new meaning, hasn’t it?
dee wrote:
Speaking as someone who was a young Christian in the 90’s, I could add a few more things that became available in that time. Biggest of all was the internet. While libraries are always available, the internet made all opinions and questions much more available. I came from a religious school (Aurora Christian School, go Eagles) and the internet certainly provided information much removed from censorship of religious watchdogs. The second thing was gay people started coming out of the closet much more. In the 80’s I knew no one who was gay. In the 90’s I knew friends and colleagues who were gay. Some of the attitudes and beliefs of the 90’s Christianity didn’t match up with the reality of those around us. It was a culturally tumultuous time that I think we’re still going through the changes and aftershocks.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
I am sitting in a doctor’s office and laughed out loud.
@ elastigirl:
Yes! I’m following my nose in this life, on the scent of this God-who-is-Love. It’s like being drawn through a great tale, “What will S/He do now? What will I be told this time and how will I respond?” It is fascinating! I wish everyone could be on the path with me.
The Textbook is general info that supports/aids the travelling, no more/less. It is a huge mistake to conflate it with the relationship. It’s like thinking that by reading a recipe, one has eaten the entrée and become a foodie.
dee wrote:
You are not kidding!
(still holding back the urge to puke)
Daisy, thank you for your insight into the Noble situation. I had no idea he had contradicted himself. I also agree, pastors shouldn’t give out medical advise. If had wanted to write about his own struggle, that would be fine. However in this situation he lied!
dee wrote:
He’s being ripped off – my look cost next to nothing. And I was voted Europe’s Sexiest Keyboard Player three years running. *
* May not be true. May contain nuts. Can aid slimming only as part of a calorie-controlled diet. Did I mention that the “Sexiest Keyboard Player” thing may not be true?
Peter wrote:
Mr. Warnock, in my opinion (having experienced New Frontiers personally, i.e., the church I have often referred to here as being led by “former SGM leaders” was New Frontiers) is part of an organization that is a huge part of the problem.
As something of a former insider, knowing of what I know of Mr. Warnock and his organization, I would not expect him to be biblically accurate, fair, reasonable or forthcoming in his opinions, but I would expect him to take great pains, in that peculiarly erudite British way, TO HOLD HIMSELF OUT as one who is biblically accurate (the final word on such matters, no less!), fair (eminently!), reasonable (unlike those with whom he is in opposition!) and quite forthcoming (a bringer to light of great truth!) in his response.
I can see that Mr. Warnock is here in his full form as we all who were members of the New Frontiers “family” knew and treasured: the form of righteousness–but STOPPING RIGHT THERE and going no farther.
@ Daisy:
I agree. From what I understand, Stephen has been a pastor but isn’t at the moment. He isn’t mature enough for such a job, and his milieu has poor models. That’s why I think he should get away for a good while so he can breathe and grow.
Also because of depression. The Evangelical community can give him very little help with it, as we both clearly experienced.
In fact, they know almost nothing about a great number of things. Being ignorant is no crime, at least initially, but they presume to know everything worth knowing (as you say, Renaissance men) and that ruins people’s lives.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Baader-Meinhof! Was just talking with my daughter today about Stalin’s flip flop in the first place–the shocking alliance with fascism–followed closely by the flip right back into the arms of the Allied Forces after Hitler got greedy for Russian oil and invaded. What a ridiculous position it put the communist faithful in, Hitler evil–Hitler good–Hitler evil, all in fast succession. This only works in an environment like Stalinist Russia or amongst loyal followers elsewhere–or in a cultic church environment.
@law prof
Thanks for your comments and also other ones I have found helpful. I haven’t personally had the experience that you describe of Newfrontiers in general, but it worries that people like Terry Virgo (but now retired from leading Newfrontiers) and Adrian Warnock align themselves with Mars Hill and don’t seem to see beyond their noses concerning Mark Driscoll. A curious issue is that if someone behaved in the way that Mark Driscoll has done in the Newfrontiers local structure, they really would out on their ear very quickly – it would not be tolerated by church members – but Newfrontiers dignitaries seem to support him, despite this. Have commented on this before.
I am sorry to hear about your negative experiences.
Let me add if all Warnock really has, at the end of the day, to support his imagined confidentiality standard that he fancies to be in the Bible is the admonition to treat others the way you’d want to be treated, let me inform Mr. Warnock that the “others” of whom I am more concerned are the unwitting future or current victims of cultic leaders such as Mr. Driscoll.
Quite naturally, given his inclinations, training and exalted status as a leader, Mr. Warnock focuses on what Mr. Driscoll would want, he presumably being the “other” of whom Jesus spoke. It’s undeniably true that were I a personality-disordered sadist that I would want to be treated with great caution and be allowed to keep the manner in which I treat others quite confidential, I’d certainly not want my narcissistic supply cut off. But were I a twenty-something, a newly-minted Christian not knowing right from left, being courted by love bombs from Mars Hill, Sovereign Grace, New Frontiers, etc., the very thing I would want is for truth to come to light–especially the ugly truth–so that I could make an informed decision.
Mr. Warnock can make that “defenseless victim” Mark Driscoll his “other”, I’ll make Mr. Driscoll’s victims mine.
@ dee: three letters, in fact – “Pet.”
I’m mystified, but do not plan on trying to clear the fog… 😉
Peter wrote:
New Frontiers is in my experience about the form of righteousness alone. They tip toe around controversy, they hold themselves out as above it all, they say nice things in sweet phrases, they are the external opposites of Mark Driscoll, but internally brothers. In sum and substance they are the same as Mars Hill; try scratching the surface a bit, try having a disagreement with one of their policies or doctrines and hold your ground one time, see what you discover. You might find out the reason in their hearts behind their public and staunch support of Mars Hill.
Erik wrote:
Erik: I’m sorry to hear you went through a similar experience. It really sucks.
I’m also grateful that you’re willing to share a bit of your experience here. I know that, for my wife and I, connecting with others who have undergone similar ordeals has been tremendously helpful in (a) validating our experience and helping us to know that we’re not crazy, and (b) affirming our decision to leave our old church and Acts 29.
I’m curious – you mentioned a blog post that brought down “discipline.” Are you still at that same church? If you’ve already left, have you shared your story anywhere (blog, etc.)? I ask because my wife and I are currently prayerfully considering sharing a detailed account of our experience in (and out of!) an Acts 29 church. For 1.5 years we have remained relatively silent, but we are wondering if our story would be helpful to others in some way. I’m just wondering how you have approached this.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
My understanding is that Jesus Movement gave birth to Calvary Chapel, who planted many churches with a frenzy, with 19 yo+ pastors, who were not welcoming to the older generations. I see this pattern continuing to this day. Even old CC pastors still catering to the young in their own churches, to the exclusion of their own generation, often. The CC phenomenon has influenced many, including Driscoll, Mars Hill, Acts 29, as I understand it. The model is efficient, without accountability, and lucrative … not to mention “cool.”
Patrice wrote:
On a related note, I saw that someone responded to one of Perry Noble’s book-promo-tweets and asked him if it’s true that the book makes no mention of seeing a psychiatrist and taking medication. No response, I believe.
What I don’t get is, why would Noble write a public blog post (that is quite good!) about his reversed position on psychology/psychiatry/medication, but then not include such a discussion in his book? It’s not like he’s hiding anything, right? His “revised stance” is already out there for the world to see, and he doesn’t seem ashamed of it.
Confusing…
@ elastigirl: the Holy Spirit is defined as being the third Person of the trinity; alsomas counselor, comforter and the spirit of truth who will guide us into all truth. He indwells those who believe.
As to who he is, in terms of our perception and understanding of him, that’s another topic altogether! I think words are, at very best, a tiny shadow rather than the actual substance in this case. (fwiw, i do not accept classical Pentecostal definitions of the Holy Spirit and his work – not that i think they’re necessarily off pe se, but i do think the lack of grounding in the basic creeds of the church plus trinitarian theology are cause for great confusion and many misundersyandings. Your mileage may vary, however.)
dee wrote:
Heh-heh-heh … This is a little phrase I have used for going on 15+ years now. Those seeking to enact it typically frown or squinch their eyebrows upon hearing it. Those on the seeing or receiving end of said acting typically laugh. Heartily. In those days there was a lotta loud laughing going on.
P.S. Sorry for disturbing the rest of the doctor’s office by proxy.
Or perhaps be thankful you weren’t drinking a cuppa at that moment?
Katie wrote:
Don’t forget the “Church Growth Movement” of the late 70s and early 80s (cf. Hybels et. al.). They were tremendously influential in how American evangelicals conceptualized and designed their ecclesiological models.
Their heyday was the 90s, after which they the whole “postmodern issue” put a big dent in their model. But most major denominations (including Mars Hill/A29) are still using models built along the lines of the Church Growth model.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
This is a very important point to note.
In my own story, I recognized quickly that an issue that came up with an underling leader led to the fact that there was a greater issue with the pastor. This led to my understanding the even greater issue with the supposedly ruling arm of the movement, which turned out to be powerless. That led to understanding that the leader of the movement had created a culture that had already trained the pastors, ergo the masses, to comply … also to punish any one pointing out the problems/outright sins. Understanding the larger picture is necessary in order to grasp what might work and what won’t. This is why staying to change things from the inside is truly futile, imo.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
You’re right there are so many overlapping elements. In observing my own experience, I have had to look at so many intersecting ideas and events that intertwined simultaneously and worked to insulate themselves into my upbringing and conditioning as a Baby Boomer raised in the suburbs, born to upwardly mobile parents who uprooted and relocated often, and specifically a mother who was ambitious & driven yet caught between the 1950’s Stay-at-Home model of womanhood and the Feminist Movement arising in the 60’s. When I became a Christian in 1978, finding an identity in Christ was so liberating, but I was vulnerable and easily captivated by all the formulaic approaches to living out the Christian life that guaranteed as a woman I would find honor, integrity and happiness within my role as a wife and stay-at-home Mom (a role my mother opposed in me but one which suited me naturally).
Not that my personal experience is important, but it serves to illustrate your point: that there can be many and varied factors that conspire together to create a specific cultural phenomenons that converge together and which impact life of the church in ways that we need to identify and become aware of. In the church was birthed, for example, the culture was saturated with Judaism, a relatively new religion based the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees, as well as other religious beliefs and practices all contained within the context of the Roman Empire, working to put specific stresses on the religion of Christ and the establishment of the church. Paul’s concerned for the church is so apparent in his letters, so full of passion and longing to see the Gospel establisehd in the churches he served, and for the faith to be protected against heresy and false teachers. The letters written to Timothy, for example, contained specific remedial instructions in hopes of saving the Ephesian church from extinction which threatened it for various reasons.
Same holds true today. I’m no expert, but I think its vital for us to be aware of influences both past and present that impact the church. Rather than holding hard and fast to structures rooted in rigid tradition, we need to analyze where we stand and what adjustments need to be made rather than attempting to fit the Church into the outfits she wore in times past that have are not longer relevant. And in saying that I don’t mean we conform to the whims of the times, but rather discern the times and avoid being conformed to the world and the kinds of specific pressures placed on her to conform her look and appearance to either tiems past, or a present model that is doing nothing to extend the Kingdom and reach people for Christ.
I admire your work because it seems to hold historical significance as well the potential to shape a path for the church moving forward, with past experience considered in perspective rather than serving as a model which we build the future of the church on. Personally I’m hoping something collective will emerge and a new thing will appear, not meaning for that to sound ‘new-age’. I want to see churches filled with former captives freed from sin by the power of God rather than churches filled with people held captive by individuals “pimped by a system that requires consumers for their brand” as you said!
Paula wrote:
Me too, I was “easily captivated by all the formulaic approaches…”
Mr.H wrote:
One explanation might be schizophrenia! One personality does one thing and the other does not know it happened.
Katie wrote:
Yes, definitely, the Jesus People/Calvary Chapel connection is part of the larger history of church planting. I also have friends whose parents started a non-Calvary Chapel church in the late 1960s/early 1970s because they saw there was a spiritual awakening and restlessness among younger generations after the “Summer of Love” in 1967, and that traditional churches weren’t likely places for embracing and discipling hippies who wanted to follow Jesus.
But the unqualified young “leaders,” in the CC movement and some of the independent spirit that went with all that seem to be part of the DNA there and still evident in “franchise” problems about organization and control at the national level, men starting up CC churches shortly after their conversion, periodic revelations from the trenches of various kinds of abuse, etc.
Meanwhile, a couple decades later, a lot a Southern Baptist churches and regional conventions/associations were picking up on church planting in the 1990s and then especially in the year 2000 or so from the SBC North American Mission Board when they made church planting their Flagship Ministry Method for Evangelism with the Nehemiah Project. Whether because it was The Next Big Idea for some or The Big Answer for GenXers, it had already become formulaic throughout much of the movement, as best I could see at the time. Anytime you’re looking for “best practices” with the idea of lifting and shifting them from your cultural context to somewhere else, that should actually be a sign of cultural insensitivity, not lauded as pragmatic flexibility. The formula approach shows up in spin-offs of church planting, as we’ve seen from some of the blog comments by people whose churches were taken over by supposedly relevant leaders for “replants.”
I know a lot of truly good men and women involved with church planting. For them, it isn’t a how-to box kit with standardized instructions. It’s about living out our faith sensitively as sojourners in the midst of a host culture. It’s sad that a GMO form of church planting has taken over like kudzu.
Anyway, maybe there’s a Big Book of Church Planting History in America out there somewhere. If anybody knows of it, or a collection of books that would cover major movements from different theological streams of the past 50 years, please let us know and link to it! Important historical backdrop in light of current critiques.
Dee,
I know that you are trying to give Stephen some credit now. Can he come back on here and just dialog with us about how he really feels? I mean I could give one of these guys some credit who still has a good relationship with his SGM family whether friends or blood to be brave and dialog with us and face their fears head on, the fear that they will be ostracized and heavily criticized by their peers for doing so, which of course they will be, but that’s just kind of like having a peer report that your eyes are open during prayer, lol.
Paula wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, Paula. I’m hoping so too. The subtitle on my blog used to be something like, “For when you’d had enough of deconstructing what was destructive and are ready to reconstruct something positive.” I think what emerges may turn out to look like a hybrid of something at the intersection of the missional ideal expressed by Brother Maynard/Brent Toderash, “Live your faith. Share your life,” and church planting, and urban monasteries, and the emerging social enterprise movement to “do good.” (I’ve been involved with the latter for a while, and that seems to be where a lot of people in the “none” category end up, so the language is inherently spiritual when they talk about value-based social transformation, and it’s almost like being in a room full of church planters!)
FWIW, what that new model has been boiling down to for me in terms of organizational development is a combination of five interlocking concept and skill sets. (Sorry for the wordiness. It takes long to write short, and I don’t quite have the oomph to do that right now.) (Plus for some unknown reason, I am using way more alliteration in this book than I can ever remember doing in any project.)
1. Safe Meeting Ground for Working on the Common Good. (Is there a spiritual discipline of safe-ministriology?)
2. Suitable Mission for the Participants and Recipients You Actually Engage. (Creating a culture of every-disciple participation instead of celebrity-and-staff consumption, in a framework of Christian humanism.)
3. Sensitive Messages Across Cultures as Peer Participants in Purposeful Service. (Living as guests in a host culture instead of attempting to control it; sojourn theology not dominion theology.)
4. Survivable Methods in the Face of Unavoidable Internal Changes [like generational shifts] and Radical External Trends [like global paradigm shifts and postmodern culture]. (Strategic foresight, trend tracking, and futuring in order to meet with flexibility and tenacity the challenges that no person or group has control over.)
5. Sustainable Momentum for a Legacy that Lasts Beyond Two Iterations or Generations. (Organic organizational development and intergenerational interaction.)
I’m finishing up my chapter on how to define “social transformation” and to measure what matters in terms of personal and social change, and then those topics above are the next five chapters on the docket. Would appreciate prayer … and now, must submerge in that writing for the rest of the day.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
So true! I’m with a mission that was very effective in it’s host culture for nearly 50 years; but in the mid 90’s a new leader took over and he (as far as I can tell) was already influenced by the “how-to box kit with standardized instructions.” Over time, the leader showed many of the same characteristics we see of celebrity pastors. And though there was built in accountability for him, he created a culture of “yes” men/women around him who let him have his way, until he was finally removed for flushing the financial resources they had down the drain with nothing to show for it. His replacements, since then, have/are also infected with this Kudzu, as well. As a result, the mission lost all it’s middle management leaving the 70+year olds running the home office with the 20 somethings on the field. Just imagine the cultural misunderstandings that arise from that gap! Now, both leaders and missionaries only know church planting philosophies and methods of recent years, so it’s no wonder that their effectiveness has waned, significantly.
@ Katie:
Meant to add, that the few who remain very effective are the ones who somehow escaped the “cool” culture of church and just keep their heads down so the home office doesn’t catch on that they are not following the current protocol.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Brad, can you help me understand what you mean here?
1. “… ‘best practices’ with the idea of lifting and shifting them from your cultural context to somewhere else, that should actually be a sign of cultural insensitivity, not lauded as pragmatic flexibility.”
Do you mean when one takes their own cultural approach and simply applies it the same way in another culture?
2. “The formula approach shows up in spin-offs of church planting, as we’ve seen from some of the blog comments by people whose churches were taken over by supposedly relevant leaders for ‘replants.'”
Do you mean that the problems get worse and are more visible when the idealists of the movement take the helm? Do you mean the student lives out what the teacher was actually teaching them to do?
For the record I would like to say that when people realize how pervasive the issues are now, and how church history is replete with systemic issues, they usually decide one of two things: 1. Leave the church, or 2. Give up calling leaders to account because “everybody’s do’in it.” I think God tells us to not be “weary in doing what is right.” I think we see in scripture that we are admonished to hold leaders accountable. So I choose 3. Hold leaders accountable, whether from inside a church that has accountability structures, or from the outside of a church that does not.
The whole point of elders was to protect the sheep, not the shepherd. God designed the church and He knows the propensity we have when we have power of any kind. So I see this life as a dance with the living organism the church. It flows and it ebbs. We just keep working with it, even if we have to step outside of a local gathering, at times.
jack wrote:
I don’t believe they are “children of the devil.” Sinners? yes! Heck yes. But I’m thinking that is the state for the rest of us also. Should we, who don’t actually know them, call them children of the devil? I wouldn’t think so.
Katie wrote:
1. Yes. In the “emerging”/postmodern ministry movement, I constantly heard things like, “What’s working where you’re at? What tips do you have?” and in listening to the dialog, it was about formulas, not flexibility. No concept of missionary humility and cross-cultural contextualization. And this is nothing new. Roland Allen talked about this over 100 years ago, in how the Anglican missionaries were “converting” Chinese people to a form of Christianity and to conformity to British missions compound culture simultaneously. Formulas and domination; they go hand in hand. [See Roland Allen’s *Missionary Methods: St. Paul’s or Ours?* http://www.amazon.com/Missionary-Methods-St-Pauls-Ours/dp/0802810012/ and also *Spontaneous Expansion of the Church*]
2. Sorry for not being clear on that. I was thinking about people’s accounts of church troubles where leaders with an Acts 29, 9 Marks, and/or neo-Calvinist bent come into an existing church with one or more adaptations of church planting methodologies.
For instance, under the guise of “church mergers” and “replants,” someone comes in who typically is a younger leader/church planter, and who imposes the “package deal” of “relevance” and “renewal” or “resurgence” — but it’s actually the same formulaic church-in-a-kit approach and authoritarian expertise with no missionary humility toward the surrounding culture. And, in the Southern Baptist Convention, as best I can recall there have been complaints for probably at least the last 10 years about neo-Calvinists/neo-Puritans coming into an existing Anabaptist-oriented local churches and shifting the doctrines to their particular Calvinistic creeds and über-authoritiarian approaches to leadership. (And while I understand that there have long been “Reformed Baptists” and “Particular Baptists,” the accusation against this spin-off of church planting is that it’s actually church take-overs under the guise of a “more biblical” doctrine and leadership.)
dee wrote:
Dee, you know full well that I absolutely love and cheer for you daily. I have been open about my admiration for you and Deb, and completely believe you are both being used by Holy Spirit to proclaim liberty to the captives and heal the brokenhearted.
You never, ever have to try to explain your actions to me, or anyone for that matter. You are a daughter of the King of the Universe. One thing I’ve learned is that sometimes things only make sense to our Father, and that is all that ever matters!
I do appreciate the clarifications though, even though it doesn’t increase or decrease the amount of love and respect I have for you.
Cool beans? 🙂
Brad-
Well said!!!! For the record what you wrote below, especially the last paragraph is why I beleive that the 20 of so chruches that broke away from Sovereign Grace Ministries are not healthy and toxic. Does one really think that a church that has SGM leadership, trained in the SGM Pastoral College, and reared in SGM culture, behavior, etc..will suddenly change just becuase it broke away? That is why CLC, SG Fairfax and Redeemer of Arlington are not healthy organizations at all.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Mr.H wrote:
I was reading a lot of the early Church Growth literature (and classic missions literature and cultural contextualization theory) in the late 1970s and ’80s, and I think you’re absolutely right, Mr. H. One of the biggest problems/critiques, as best I recall, is that it devolved into the use of numerical growth as a “proxy measure” for healthiness. So, if your “growth” is “good,” you’ll have more numbers in attenders and giving.
And boy, howdy! The reality of postmodern paradigm shifts put a crimp in a lot of people’s programs! So, here we are, 30-40+ years later, facing the same questions/problems in the secular social entrepreneurship movement as they were trying to get at in the Church Growth movement, and the Church Health movement that emerged in its wake: What do “growth” and “health” look like? How do we measure it? (Similar questions being raised among Mars Hill attenders past and present, too.) These are crucial questions for churches, and I think they’ve sometimes been co-opted to get congregations to accept faulty methods to try to achieve “growth” or “pass on their legacy” to younger generations. Such as church merger or replant concepts.
The past five years, I’ve worked with an international team of 20/30/40-somethings (as their way older generation peer partner) to use missional metrics and organic systems approaches to create The Transformational Index (The T.I. for short). The T.I. is a system of organizational development tools to identify what kinds of internal and external changes your team/group/endeavor wants to make, create strategic plans consistent with your group’s values and that move you toward those changes, and set up specific indicators that you can track along the way to measure what matters in those transformations.
Its a far more context-sensitive way to go about ministry and measuring ministry impact through *qualitative* means. I still think *quantitative* measures of “numbers and nickels” is basically about how many resources got invested to buy *the opportunity* to make a spiritual transformation impact through discipleship. But all those numbers got turned into proxy measures that have little to do with the quality of change in the lives of people in the pews.
P.S. When the emphasis is conformity instead of transformation to the image of Christ, all some of these movements can offer is numbers and nickels, rules and regulations, supposedly “theologically inerrant” creeds and legally vetted covenants. And when were any of those *ever* the essence or essentials of following Christ or being church?
Speaking of immitating culture….you know how many guys in SGM churches were shaving their heads to look like CJ Mahaney? WEll…..the BBC is reporting that in North Korea students are now required to have hair cuts that immitate the leadership of Kim Jong Un.
Pyonyang is so ripe for an SGM church plant!! 😛
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-26747649
Mr.H wrote:
Good questions. Hard questions. I have shared quite a bit of that season here on TWW over the past 6 months. Wow, it has been 6 months today!
Regrettably, some of the things I wrote have been permanently deleted. I was asking lots of questions “out loud” then, and I removed all the “divisive” material in what I felt then to be a gesture of goodwill. No, my family is not members of that institution any longer. We’ve been trying to salvage relationships that were formed during those 5 years, but sadly discovering that many of them were just relationships of convenience or shallow commonalities. That is the hardest part. “Family” starts to mean what I never expected it to mean. Being “family” in that institution evidently had conditions that could be broken very easily. I tried to fit in to those boxes for a long time. I definitely did not know then (even though it was only months ago) how fear was smothering me.
I have written many pages and pages of thoughts lately, but I have not made any of them public. It is something I am actively seeking God’s direction about, so I can very much relate to you.
We should connect. Find me on Facebook “Erik Merksamer” or Twitter “mixmastermerks”, and we can then privately exchange phone numbers.
Peace.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
*allegedly* imposes …
@ Eagle:
Now Eagle, some might be like me: I have been cutting my hair very, very short (and shaving the top) for over ten years, because I do not like the combover look and that is the alternative. I cut it as short as the beard trimmer I use will let me, which is a few millimeters. And I have a beard and side burns. My comment: God made me bald so I am going with it all the way, within reason. Of course, late in the two weeks between hair cuts, I do have a nice growth around the sides and back.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Best image ever.
Erik wrote:
Very common phenomenon. I’ll bet the relationships you thought deep and heartfelt amongst true brothers and sisters were stirred into being as quickly as they later fell apart, right?
Common cultic bait and switch.
I’ve found that the biggest problem with my previous (I hope) attraction to cultic churches (3 in 8 years) was me. Spouse and I had previously attended a couple very solid, healthy churches. But we moved far away and have spent nearly the last decade trying to recapture the “magic”. I think we wanted it easily, and when we attended these churches with our big family and our five degrees between us we were seen as the “right types” and got loved bombed into a sense of security.
Those “meaningful” relationships formed so easily and naturally (I guess we were just so special, so wise and mature in Christ, so successful we deserved the attention). Of course, nothing of the sort was true. We were a sense of “prestige” for the little cultic neocal church (“Well you know we have the professor and his wife, who used to teach at a university also, going here…”) and a steady tithe. The pot slowly heated up and it was only after repeatedly saying to each other things like “How can a person do that/say that/think that and call themselves a Christian?” that we realized we may not be dealing with Christians at all, or at best with Christians warped by a cultic system. We were played like the fools we were.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Well stated. Our former church was taken over by neo cals and this became their new construct of church. 🙁
A thought to consider …
I just read through all of the comments on Altrogge. I’m not an SGM apologist in the least bit. 25 years there did tremendous hurt to me and my family. The pastor worship/focus was and is still sickening. My comments on Stephen were said out of anger. Not really towards him, but to the entire SGM way of thinking. I DO believe that Stephen still has that thinking rooted in him, but like many others he needs help.
It took me 2 YEARS to finally leave SGM after I KNEW I was done. It took me 15 years to leave SGM knowing that something was not right. People need to understand that the teachings become DEEPLY implanted in to your mind, your life and your soul.
I’ve been out two years now. I’m still recovering. Whereas I never lost my love of Christ, I did lose friends and even family. To this day I am deeply heartbroken.
Stephen needs help. My primary comment that I want to make is that many of the “regulars” on the Wartburg Watch seem to be more interested in tearing down instead of helping someone. Especially someone who is absolutely LOST in their understanding of their thoughts and actions. I was wrong for some of the things that I said about Stephen. After I left SGM I was alone and by myself … deeply saddened and probably close to be in full blown depression.
I experienced the full blunt force of the Wartburg regulars when I decided to talk about my beliefs in the evolution vs creation debates. It felt like I had walked in to a hungry pack of wolves instead of a group of Christians that were able to discuss differences.
As I jump in to the wartburgwatch from time to time I believe that it has tremendous value to those like me who have been hoodwinked. I just wish maybe that the engagement with the non-regulars was one of truly being a brother in Christ to someone instead of an enemy.
I’m sure I’ll get killed over this post as well. That’s ok. I can take it. I’ll still read TWW. I believe it has tremendouse value in the kingdom of God sans the attacks.
@ Erik:
Always cool beans!
@ Somewhereintime: hey there, i know all too well what you are talking about re. the knowing things aren’t right/feeling unready to leave but wanting to/finally leaving – as well as what happens after. Although i was never in an SGM church, i have been there and done that, and so have lots of others who post here.
Becoming whole after so long in an abusive system takes time, i spent the better part of ten years in intense recovery mode, and am now beginning to feel like the bad stuff is behind me. For a very long time i felt like i was in a long (*very* long), dark tunnel with no light showing at the far end – only the hope and belief thast it was there. And i know there were times when i could sense myself getting to witin a glimpse of it from far off, then closer… But it certainly did seem to take forever.
I wish you all the very best and want to know that you’re not alone, though it might often seem that way. Reading and posting here has been instrumental in the healing process for me, and i pray that it will beso for you as well.
@ Somewhereintime:
What worries me about this entire discussion is that few people remember the entire trajectory of this post. Let’s get back to the point. Janet Mefferd is the one who was called an enemy inside the church. She has been forgotten in this discussion about who treats who in what way. In fact, she is the one who has been treated quite poorly
Somewhereintime, you should know that Janet believes the same way that you believe on the subject of creationism. Yet here I am sticking my neck out for her and defending her against attacks. She has stood up squarely agains the SGM child sex abuse allegations.
I am sure that it takes time to get out of the SGM mindset. Perhaps those who are in process should stay away from public commentary until the transformation is further along.
LawProf wrote:
That speaks straight into me. It’s evidence of being brainwashed, so to speak. My wife and I were just having that conversation the other day. The other institutions we have attended over the past six months all shared similar characteristics, attracting us into false hopes. It’s like they know that we would very gladly give everything to feel like we actually have a loving community to share life with. We were even part of a small group most recently, and we began letting down our guards. But, then church leadership asked me to “have lunch” with them, and I quickly discovered what expectations they had to “be in community”. Just more of the same. Conform! Unite under our vision!! Don’t think for yourself, unless you come to same conclusions as us!
Erik wrote:
Run! And whatever you do, do not give them money. 🙂
@ Patti:
I am sending this comment onto him. I love your last line.
@ Erik: i have been there and done that, too, with the hope that this time, things would be different. It’s a self-perpetuating cycle, andi can only suggest that staying away from places that hold out the false promise of “community” would be the best thing you could do for yourselves. Instead, try something different – your average Methodist or Lutheran or (add names at will) church. It might seem alien at first, but it will likely be a place where you are free to think for yourselves and where nobody’s going to try and rope you into yet another set of profoundly dysfunctional relationships.
Worth thinking about, no?
dee wrote:
My friend T.C. often says that he intentionally gravitates towards people labelled a “heretic” or “enemy of the church”. He says that usually is a characteristic of people who truly love Jesus and actively obey Holy Spirit’s promptings. Janet is being treated in a very similar way the Pharisees treated Jesus. Look at how Piper and his Christian Mafia impacted World Vision the past 2 days. “Dare not attempt any GOSPEL activity unless sanctioned by OUR BIBLICAL authority!!” These guys have very successfully created a network of fear, and evidently have financial power to back it up.
Erik wrote:
Lunches–oh have I had some lunches! The same thing–conform or get the bleep out. Those lunches, you know, never come at the outset of the “relationship”, that would be too downright honest and Christ-like, even if you corner most of these leaders, square up with the pastor right up front, they’re only going to stroke you and ride you along if they feel you’re something that can benefit their agenda. Those lunches where the truth comes out happen months in, maybe a year in, after you’ve gotten a little bit comfortable (as you relate “…began letting down our guards…”) and the relational hooks in, such that it will be painful to pull them out. No wonder people have such a hard time breaking free. Of course, after several months or a year or so, you’ve swallowed so much, made excuses so many times for the flat out evil behavior (to relate back to another post I made last week, I stayed for months in a church headed up by a prosperity-gospel pastor–who didn’t take that prosperity belief out of the bag til we were well-settled–after the pastor pronounced from the pulpit “We know, oh Lord, that the poor are not your children, because, as Psalm 37:25 says ‘I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread.’) it’s just not easy to break loose. You’re addled by that point. Glad you broke free from the most recent attempt to ensnare you.
Somewhereintime wrote:
Yeah, you know, as previous posters have pointed out, it was Janet and others, such as Dee and Deb, who were being treated like the enemies and Stephen seemingly joining in to pile on, then unilaterally choosing to come over here and “put us in our places” for calling him to task for it. I understand that might be the spasm of a hurting guy–I’m sure he is hurting, can’t imagine he’s not, I am very sorry, one doesn’t as a child ask for their church–but I wonder what it’s like to be Janet and Dee and Deb and others who are continually slandered by SGM for simply trying to get at the truth and expose it. Do you wring your hands for them? Does Stephen wring his hands for the abuse victims that his cultic church wrought? Maybe he does, but if so, he has a funny way of expressing it, taking shots at the ones who are seeking to bring that behavior out into the light.
numo wrote:
I so appreciate that Numo. Much love to you! Yes, that is what we are learning. We shared this past Sunday exactly like that. It was an old congregational church with wooden pews, worn-down hymnals, and get this: NO FREE COFFEE. ( the last hipster church we went to had a phenomenal coffee bar, which I confess I very much took advantage of )
The Sunday School class (yes, the so uncool and outdated Sunday School) was taught by an elderly man who also happened to be blind. The class included feisty grandmothers who asked questions like, “Where does it say that in the Bible?” Nothing there felt very polished, packaged, or relevant. And, it did help us feel safe.
We met a precious sister who, years ago, had almost been thrown out of the same seminary that I was thrown out of years later. We learned that she and I now share similar Anabaptist ideas about what following King Jesus looks like.
It was a good alternative, and it made us think a lot about what suckers we’ve been to new, modern models.
@ LawProf: very good comment!
@ Mr.H:
“What I don’t get is, why would Noble write a public blog post (that is quite good!) about his reversed position on psychology/psychiatry/medication, but then not include such a discussion in his book? It’s not like he’s hiding anything, right?”
++++++++++++++
Someone else wrote the book, Perry put his name on it, but didn’t really read it.
LawProf wrote:
Exactly! I am almost in disbelief how eerily parallel my experiences have been. And, at that last place for us, we outright told the pastor on the FIRST day the kind of situations we were coming out of and wanting to avoid. We got the scripted “you’ll be welcome here….just heal…” I asked specific and direct questions, trying to uncover the layers of disguise. We simply got spun, and sadly drank in the poison mixed so well with the wine.
I’ve gotten a bit of a bad reputation here in Boston, even though we are a city of thousands of people. I’m not going to be baited in anymore. A friend of mine said that at a recent conference, he was asked “if a guy named Erik had called him asking about theology and funding sources”. Ha!
@ Somewhereintime:
hi!! Just wanted to say that I’m very glad you are here and sharing. I agree that Stephen is pretty lost. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for him to “pimp his ride”, in getting a deeper level of help than he has before.
I agree that it takes time to get out of the SGM mindset. Women were quite subservient there, so it might not have occurred to him that it’s not ok to directly or indirectly attack Janet Mefferd, or the Deebs. It could possibly take years to undo the damage that creeps into a typical SGM man’s brain that women are not to be trusted.
He might protest vociferously if he reads this. …perhaps that was not going on in his head during the heated dialogue. But it would be good for him to see that he was reinforcing a stereo type by his behavior.
I did not mean to go on so long here. Hopefully you will feel safer now to come back and post at TWW.
I just started posting a whole lot and I was not attacked, unless I am too dense to notice.
But on another blog that shall not be named, I was repeatedly called a liar by one person in particular. Indirectly, of course. That’s the SGM way. SGM Freude. Please shut up your pain, it’s bothering me so it’s easier for me to call you a liar than to truly dial down and listen.
Hopefully there will be safer discussion topics for you to participate in. I truly want to hear what you have to say, and your pain does not bother me in the least.
Hugs,
Marie2
PS will give examples of SGM Freude in later post
elastigirl wrote:
I’ve thought of another theory on this, one that puts Noble in a somewhat better light. Perhaps it was a publisher’s decision: “Perry, like [bleep] are you going to include that chapter about pharmaceuticals, think that one’s going over well with the demos you’re targeting? Out it goes!”
So Perry, trying in a back-handed way to set the record straight, starts blogging the truth to counter the message that was imposed upon him. Maybe. Could be. Still doesn’t absolve him entirely, because at some point, if you’ve written a book that’s truthful and someone wants to distort it, nothing stops you from putting your foot down and refusing to have the lie go forth with your name attached.
It is a possible explanation of the bizarre disconnect between the blog and the book.
Erik wrote:
You will find in such places a lot of people who are playing church games, nice pillars of the community, but no a passion for Jesus.
But you will also very often find (at least in my experience doing the PCUSA Presbyterian, ELCA Lutheran, Methodist thing at times over the years) that there always seems to be a core of very committed believers (perhaps some of them refugees from churches equal parts passion and abuse) who just plain love Jesus and are free to operate in their small groups, Bible studies and mission work unimpeded by authoritarian abuse.
You could do worse–but I cannot say what the Lord intends for you, Erik, but I know it’s going to be something good.
@ numo:
“the Holy Spirit is defined as being the third Person of the trinity; alsomas counselor, comforter and the spirit of truth who will guide us into all truth. He indwells those who believe.
…Pentecostal definitions of the Holy Spirit and his work… i do think the lack of grounding in the basic creeds of the church plus trinitarian theology are cause for great confusion and many misundersyandings.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
yes, counselor, comforter, paraclete, the one who guides into truth, having power (dunamis explosive power), spirit = pneuma = wind, breath, spirit.
I know all the theology. it just doesn’t explain much, beyond theory. I like to know and understand the nuts and bolts of things.
spirit is mysterious. I think a person’s spirit is subject to the person, but can be stirred up, agitated, warmed up and glowing, etc. in response to other spiritual activity, bypassing the person’s/host’s will.
So, Holy Spirit does the will of the Him who sent him. Is subject to the person, Jesus. God, too, I imagine. A spirit is connected to its host’s mind and emotions and body, but it’s also a distinct entity.
Jesus “sent” / “sends” his spirit. I wonder… can human beings send their spirit? Are spirits sendable?
And with that, I’m sure I’ve narrowed down the number of responders to 1 or 2.
Erik wrote:
Hey dude, I’ve gotten one whale of a bad reputation down South here. Gosh, next time I’m up there (have family and friends nearby, I love New England), we gotta have a beer in one of those fine Boston bars and go see the Green Monster.
elastigirl wrote:
Definitely a possible scenario. We’ve seen similar escapades.
@ LawProf:
I’d love that!
elastigirl wrote:
Here. Maybe this will help: http://youtu.be/ROgZx4kcMGo
.
Erik wrote:
What is this Piper/World Vision thingy you speak of? (Concerned face goes here)
@ Marie2:
Sorry about that unnamed blog. Several of us have experienced that. I was questioned by that same party on a third blog regarding the pet peeve of that same party. I have to stay away as I get steamed about said parties approach to folks.
@ Somewhereintime:
I am glad you are free. Sorry the journey was so painful.
I just note that Steve Atroggle (sp?) first attack Janet Mefford. She was the radio host who dared to challenge SGM publicly a while back, then, a few months ago, she challenged Driscoll over plagiarism. She found some inconvenient truths out there in Chrstiandom, the SGM scandal and plagiarism, she is being demonized. She is a journalist, not an enemy of the faith. She is not a sinner – a slanderer would be a sinner, so they need to offer proof of her slandering. They don’t, because journalism isn’t gossip. It goes and finds out facts, it goes to the source (Driscoll or the lawyer in the SGM trial) and asks questions. It is public and transparent. It may put the spotlight on people who are trying to hide their deeds, but that is not slander/gossip, that is journalism.
So, there is Steve, attacking Janet by telling her she has a miserable existence trying to hold people accountable, right after someone (perhaps Driscoll) paid for two Christian magazines to run stories on her being an “enemy within” sounds fishy in the extreme.
As for attacking over science/faith issues, sorry if I attacked you, I honestly don’t remember, but I do stand up when people try and call theistic evolutionists non-Christians, or lesser Christians, for not reading the Bible the way a creationist read it. If someone is a 6-day creationist, but still considers a theistic evolutionist a genuine Christian, and doesn’t go behind their backs and claim they are ruining Christianity, then I am fine with that person’s faith. I don’t stand for people challenging my faith when they don’t even know me, but have a different interpretation than me and assume because I don’t share it, I must be the one who is dangerous, wrong, less Christian, not taking the Bible seriously, etc.
Bridget wrote:
Oh Bridget, it is a horrible mess! I’m sure you can search the web for the news, but the brief is that World Vision had changed a hiring policy to now include gay married employees. They were very explicit to point that it was not an affirmation or theological stance, but simply an attempt at keeping the focus on serving the children. Well, you can read all sorts of opinions around the web! Anyway, John Piper, Russell Moore, Denny Burk, and the like went on a rampage. Thousands of sponsored children were losing funding, and so just today World Vision reversed its policy change. Now, there are chants of “Praise God for BIBLICAL convictions!!” etc. etc… I’m sure TWW will be posting about this. The link below is one of the most recent summaries about it:
http://www.redletterchristians.org/world-vision-gay-marriage-taking-stand-backs-starving-children/
@ LawProf:
It is a rather odd thing that I have seen with some who come out of certain types of groups. In such groups, the one who has a legitimate concern is often sidelined by the pastor, leader, whatever. The focus goes from the injured to the feelings of the one to whom the concern was brought. Before you know it, the tables are turned.
I saw this myself in a church. There were boys very hurt by a predator. Soon, it became about the pastors, their feelings, their leadership, their, their ,their….
I need to get better at learning how to redirect conversations. This post was about Janet and it became about someone else. I bet you saw that with your Neo Cal pastors. Did it always become about them, their vision, their feelings…?
LawProf wrote:
OK, you two. I am Salem Massachusetts raised. I met my husband in Park Street Church in downtown Boston. You guys find the beer. I’ll get you clam chowder and lobster rolls. I still have relatives in Boston and Cape Cod.
@ dee:
We should definitely schedule that Northern Hospitality session!
Dee, have you and Deb ever considered using a comment system like Disqus? That seems to help redirect the conversation, and it lets others know when someone wants to directly interact or respond to them. Is the privacy and sensitivity of commentators here not a good fit for a more interactive comment section? Sometimes I have no idea that someone has asked me a question here.
@ Bridget:
I found it . . . ugh!
@ dee:
Yes it does !!!
dee wrote:
Wow, Dee! That’s incredible! Not to deviate from the topic too far, but they don’t make churches like Park St anymore, uh well back in 1991-1993 when I was in Boston. I bet it is still a nice place. Hopefully it has not become too “MODERNE”….
Ok back to the topic – hopefully more people will speak up for Janet….
@ Erik:
Score one for Piper, Denny Burke and all of bigotry
@ elastigirl: where you go, i cannot follow, because i was exposed to Spiritualism way back when.
I feel safer w/Third Person of the trinity, who proceeds from the Father and the Son (or, if you’re Orthodox, the Father only, though i’ve never understood why this difference should matter one whit).
I think God can be anywhere, in fact, *_is* everywhere (omnipresent). Beyond that, it is difficult to pin anything down. If you want some heavy reading material on this, look up the Athanasian creed. Trinitarian theology is very hard going, i’m afraid!
As for the whole “power” thing, that is where i part ways from clasdical Pentecostalism, at least in the way this often seems to be understood. The HS is a *Person* of the trinity, not an impersonal force, and i cringe inwardly every time i hear or see people refer to the HS as “it.”
But that’s just me talking. 😉
@ Bridget:
Thank you Bridget for your kind words. I want to say more but I am done with the fussing and arguing over nonsense. Hopefully someday this person will get the memo that Jesus did not stomp on the wounded.
@ elastigirl: i dont think we’re capable of understanding the “nuts and bolts,” frankly. At least, not in this lifetime, on this planet.
And i’m not prepared to slug it out per trinitarian theology, unlike some of the folks in the early centuries of the church. I’m content at this point to allow this to be part of the mystery of the faith. Besides, in John Jesus explicitly stated that the HS is here to draw our attention to himself and to the Father. I don’t know that further inquiry would turn up much of anythin, but again, that’s just me.
elastigirl wrote:
Good question elastigirl. We do know that children and animals tend to shy away from those who are mean-spirited and tend to gravitate toward those who are loving and kind. In terms of what we do know, I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to suggest that humans send out vibrations either for good or bad.
Shakespeare put it this way:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
from: Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio.
@ numo:
Yes, and referred to as a “she” in every reference in the Old Testament and “neutral” gendered in the New Testament (we have no ‘neutral’ pronoun to denote personhood in English – we have he or she (him or her) but no non-gendered presonhood pronoun. ‘It’ refers to non-living objects, so it doesn’t equal the Greek “neutral” pronoun given to the Holy Spirit. That all being explained, I say we call the Holy Spirit a “she”, since we don’t have a “neutral” English Pronoun and the OT writers certainly saw a female gender in Her. 🙂 Piper doesn’t need to worry – it still would maintain a “masculine” feel since the Father and Son are definitely masculine so 2/3 masculine 1/3 feminine. Fits with Genesis 1 where God creates male and female in his image.
@ Val: Hebrew does not have a neuter gender (gramatically), so all nouns, pronouns and proper names are gendered. But i think it would be a mistake to assume that this means that we can apply gender to God (apart from Christ, incarnate in a male body). God is God, the creator of physical sexes, but is, as Jesus said in John ch. 4, both spirit and truth, and beyond anything we can imagine.
If nothing else, i think that the second Person of the trinity became incarnate in order for us to be able to picture him in his humanity as well as his divinity. (Along with all the rest.)
@ Muff Potter: well, sure, both animals and kids (and tuned-in adults) sense things from other people, both positive and negative. But i am not convinced that this has anything to do with a mystical or spiritual dimension. My hunch (and that’s all it is) is that we humans work within a very limited range as far as using our five senses, but that animals don’t; also that many things are clearer to them than to us due to the fact that they work mainly with nonverbal cues (not being verbal themselves), as well as having much more developed senses of hearing, smell and often sight than we do.
I think we tend to discount non-verbal cues from others, when in fact, non-verbal cues are just as eloquent as speech, if not more so. Words on their own only take us so far, but tone of voice, gestures posture, facial expressions and more are the giveaway. (In other words, all the stuff that’s misding from text-only convos like the ones here.) we all know that people send out “mixed signals,” where one kind of communication (primarily non-verbal) is at odds with what’s being said.
While i have no doubt that people in earlier times might have characterized that as “spirit,” i just can’t accept that as an (or the) explanation now, given what we know from both hard sciences as well as the social sciences. (Always keeping in mind that they’re by no means the last word on many things.)
__
“Let Us Cast Down The Accuser Of Our Brother Mark Driscoll?”
CRASH !!!
( bad, bad, bad…very baaaaaaaad person…)
Janet Mefferd?
hmmm…
Dee : “What worries me about this entire discussion is that few people remember the entire trajectory of this post.?.”
Dee : “Let’s get back to the point.”
[The Point]
Dee : “Janet Mefferd is the one who was called an enemy inside the church…”
What?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
A-c-c-u-s-a-ti-o-n !!!
Janet Mefferd = “an enemy inside [the church]”
[RANT]
Janet Mefferd is the enemy!
Janet Mefferd is the enemy!
Janet Mefferd is the enemy!
Janet Mefferd is the enemy!
Janet Mefferd is the enemy!
Stomp, Stomp, Stomp, Stomp, Stomp…
huh?
What “church”?
(repeat)
WHAT CHURCH?
Mars Hill? She is not a member of Mars Hill church.
SGM? She is not a member of an Sovereign Grace Ministries church.
(what then?!?)
Jesus’ church?
huh?
She is an enemy of J-e-s-u-s’ church?
(who sayz)
Q. For What?
Ahem! For publicly calling out Mars Hill Executive Pastor Mark Driscoll on a live broadcast for not properly citing whole references(s) in his book, “Real Marriage” ?
( “Let none call it ‘plagiarism’ ?” )
For shame!?!
Moral of da proverbial story:
If you call out a Neo-Calvinist 501(c) religious non-profit Executive Pastor for repetitive improper citation (call it plagiarism). you could be classified as an ‘enemy’ of God’s Son’s church?
Which logically would make Janet Mefford an enemy of G.O.D.
Whoa!
Who knew?
🙂
Call out evil, and become the enemy of G.O.D?
That’s original.
(grin)
hahahahahahahahaha
“…when the secret’s out,
and the wounded sing,
what’s lost is found,
you trouble me,
and it’s troubling…” ~ “Ghost in the Machine” *(1)
(sadface)
Sopy
__
* (1) The Fire and the Sea – “Ghost in the Machine”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxymP30TrR4
Intermission: (clip) – Bach Cello Suite No.1 in G
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGQLXRTl3Z0
;~)
—
@ numo:
Yes and in every scripture passage that refers to the incarnation the emphasis is on His humanity not His gender as is shown by the writers using the word anthropos instead of aner. That helps me believe that the ‘private’ letters of the New Testament actually were inspired by the Holy Spirit in men of that day and time and that it is also okay that concerned believers circulated them to our benefit even though the pages are full of ‘gossip.’
@ numo:
“As for the whole “power” thing, that is where i part ways from clasdical Pentecostalism, at least in the way this often seems to be understood. The HS is a *Person* of the trinity, not an impersonal force”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i think i agree that HS is a person…. but then i wonder — what is a person? what do we mean by person?
regardless of how one understands “person” concerning HS, the NT writers use the word “power” numerous times when talking about HS. amazing & remarkable things didn’t happen by the gentleness of the Holy Spirit, or by the “information” (truth-impressing) of the Holy Spirit.
I think HS can be gentle, and can touch a person deeply in a healing way, and this is wonderfully amazing and remarkable.
but when it comes to what Simon observed with this eyes in Acts 8, to the sound of a mighty rushing wind, to matter being changed (bodies changing to a whole state), and Jesus’ own body changing from dead to alive, it is power in an energizing, electrifying, explosive sense. HS’s power can be present without eventuating in something miraculous, too.
chances are you don’t disagree with me, here. although I understand you have boundaries in this area, I’m sure for good reason. I respect your perspective.
@ numo:
“@ Muff Potter: well, sure, both animals and kids (and tuned-in adults) sense things from other people, both positive and negative. But i am not convinced that this has anything to do with a mystical or spiritual dimension. My hunch (and that’s all it is) is that we humans work within a very limited range as far as using our five senses, but that animals don’t; also that many things are clearer to them than to us due to the fact that they work mainly with nonverbal cues (not being verbal themselves), as well as having much more developed senses of hearing, smell and often sight than we do.”
+++++++++++++++++
very interesting. I agree. but i do think that what animals sense includes the spiritual dimensions. And I think it’s very mundane.
life in our society is so based on the tangible, the intellect, on control and predictability, that anything “else” is given names like paranormal and mystical with all manner of spooky associations. but really, we all have a spirit, it’s as normal and mundane as the wart on the bottom of my foot. We tend to be not in tune with that part of us, though — unaware of it. but it’s as real and valid as any other part of us.
@ brad/futuristguy:
Thanks! I understand better, now.
Interesting and relevant! I’m especially intrigued by External Trends which are important to accurately understand. Misunderstandings and misapplication in this area can take churches off in a totally wrong direction all under the guise of being “counter-cultural” when it’s not!
@ brad/futuristguy:
“Call out evil, and become the enemy of G.O.D?”
Apparently. Pretty cray-zay I’d say! :-O @ Sopwith:
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Yes, but the only thing “new” about this is that some of the terminology has changed. Forever the
Baptists have been dealing with this. The pattern has been that some church called a new pastor and either he turned out to have ideas contrary to the ideas of a large percentage of the congregation who actually voted for him in ignorance, or else some actually group in the church “brought in their own man” and then they tried to “take over” the church. From this there would result a “church split” in which the (usually) smaller group would go set itself up as another church, usually by meeting in some school gym until there were enough adherents to finance a new church building. The old adage goes way back into my parents time at least, that baptists start most of their new churches by church splits. Again let me say that this does not look new at all to me. The clothes and the music are different, and the age of some of the leadership, but otherwise it is same old same old. The furor is over the size of the massive onslaught of the aggressors and the apparent success of that onslaught.
And do not forget the fundamentalist vs non-fundamentalist divergence in thinking among baptists. The current calvinists are also fundamentalists. So there are two battles going on at the same time. Fundamentalism in that tradition is not just a set of beliefs but is predominately an outlook on reality. There have been fundamentalist calvinists and there have been fundamentalist arminians, but not all, because fundamentalism occurs on a continuum. Hence, the definition of what constitutes fundamentalism can vary.
Now the current calvinists are calvinists and also fundamentalists who are aggressively using age old techniques in bastist-dom to, by their own admission, seize control of the SBC. At least, that is how it appears to me.
( I also have now developed some ideas about why some people get hurt more in church than other people, and I am going to sling that out there when I find some “people” commenter to whom I can link it.)
@ elastigirl: see, in this case, i think it’s about personality and intentions, though you’ve got a good point here.
@ elastigirl: I think there is way too much emphasis on power and on highly unusual occurrences in many Pentecostal and charismatic churches. Been there, done that.
There were many “mission churches” started by SBC affiliated churches in the 1950s-1970s. A church would sponsor a new place, holding VBSs for a year or two, with an associated “revival” of a week using the second week of the VBS. Several families from the church would make up the core of the new church. The parent church would manage finances, establishing a subaccount for the mission church. Once the misison church could be self-sustaining, perhaps with a subsidy from the SBC HMB to help with pastor salary, the new church would be constituted as a separate entity. Most of this was in the northern tier of states. The church I grew up in, in NE Ohio, averaged one successful start every 2 or 3 years. Some of these were 50-60 miles away,others on the other side of the metro area or in another suburb. It was a generally successful model.
Nancy wrote:
Well stated, Nancy, and when you boil it down to the underlying thinking processes, “fundamentalism” is less about specific beliefs and more about the kinds of thought processing going on. A lot of perfectionism, behavioral conformity, and blame-shifting. A more of a “TJ” profile on Myers-Briggs; weak on compassion/Feel and strong on theory/Think. Weak on being slow decision-making and being open-ended/Perceive and strong on quick closure/Judge.
I think when you start looking at world religions and the fundamentalist wings of each, you see radically similar black-and-white thinking processes, though the products differ in the belief content. Scary.
Nancy wrote:
I saw this up close in a take-over situation — not an SBC church, but the tactics were similar. It was insidious. A sin-saturated process used to take over a church in the name of a god called the “gospel” or fundamentalism or conservatism. It hardly matters which idol is being obeyed, and what label is put on it, the process is still corrosive and soul-killing.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Yes, well, I am a classic textbook ISTJ. It works really well in scientific pursuits, and scientists are not know for being religious fundamentalists. Oops. And my son the lousy/liberal Episcopalian is a classic ESTJ even to the point where the military has commended him for some of those ESTJ personality characteristics and he is still a l/l Epis. Which is to say, that there must be more to it than that.
Nancy wrote:
Yup, there’s more to it. Didn’t mean to make this all about MBTI and make it “stand on all fours,” as it were. Uhh … reductionism might be an indicator of fundamentalism, right?
Just hard to describe paradigm stuff and epistemology without getting totally technical on a non-technical blog, and by trying to find at least some touchstones that people might find for analogies.
I try, I fail. I shift and try again.
brad/futuristguy wrote:
Me too. All the time. But I do not do this for a living and I get my attention too easily distracted to follow some of my tentative observations to any sort of conclusion. One of the things we gold-plated TJs do instinctively and ferociously is come to the conclusion that there is not enough evidence to come to a conclusion, and then, yes we are immovable from that position without evidence being pointed out or discovered. Well, at least STJs do that. Wait. That is a thought. Maybe what you said about TJ is at least partially spot on, maybe it is the S that makes the difference. Show me the evidence is way different from tell me what to think. Maybe there are those who can just appropriate somebody else’s thinking (absent their own) in order to arrive at the coveted decision (adjudication) so they can then put the matter to rest and move on.
Hey, I don’t know but I plan to gather evidence (S) and think about it (T) and see if I can come up with some ideas (J).
Also there is conformity as an outward sign of belonging. Wear the T shirt. As our society loses more and more of the sense of community (neighborhood, school, life-long jobs in the same place, etc) that sense of belonging would become quite attractive.
And there is that thing about you are not arguing with me but with God as a lot safer than having to say here is what I think and why I think it.
And lots of folks come from highly dysfunctional families, and the typical IFB church, for example is highly organized and appears set in concrete, and you don’t have to worry about your old drunken daddy because here we have grape juice for communion even we are so opposed to alcohol and nobody ever is going to get out of hand. You are safe here.
And separation from the world as a virtue is much better than separation from the world because someone is just not able to get themselves together enough to actually function in the world. (I knew someone like this.)
I sure wish you could see your way clear to translate into standard english something from your thinking to mine on this issue. This bugs me.
@ Nancy:
Wish I could translate better, too, Nancy. Trying, but not enough time/energy given other writing tasks that must be done. Best I can do at the moment is say anyone is far more than any single assessment tool or combination of them can illuminate, and offer a few leads to some approaches I’ve found helpful.
I’d recommend the Gregorc Mind Styles material, which deals with how we PERCEIVE information through concrete and abstract, and how we ORDER information sequentially (conventional linear logic) and randomly (chunks of information that are interconnected). According to his theory, all of us do use all combinations of perception + ordering, but have differing combinations of what is more dominant.
Dr. Gregorc used a similar philosophical approach to that used in the Myers-Briggs … phenomenology … so there are some similarities between them.
Also helpful is the Witken Cognitive Style, which is about “field orientation” — global (big picture thinking that needs the framework before being able to absorb the details) and analytic (detail-oriented and works up toward the big picture).
Those are crucial for overall frameworks for processing information, and there are entire generations and cultures that reflect certain combinations (and often try to enforce that as “standard” on everyone else, regardless of how God designed them as individuals to best process information).
@ Nancy:
Also, here is a tutorial on learning styles that tries to capture some of that info.
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-11/
elastigirl wrote:
We are the progeny and inheritors of Hellenism. We can’t help ourselves. From the iron-clad proofs of Euclid to the nihilism of Neecha (Nietzsche), if it can’t be catalogued, quantified, and measured with a grid, it doesn’t exist.
In my own Native American tradition the hawk is a powerful spiritual totem signifying sight from afar. There’s a place not far from where I live where I like to go and watch the redtails wheel (always anti-clockwise from their perspective) and cruise the thermals. For me it’s a way of touching the divine far more effectively than saintly icons or contemplative prayer labyrinths (no offense to those of you who tend toward Eastern Orthodox or Episcopal traditions). It’s purely subjective, what floats one person’s boat may or may not float another person’s ship and vice versa.
dee wrote:
My experience exactly.
The former SGM leader who took over as pastor of my previous church, “R” (and within a few years caused it to implode, cease to exist) was approached and handed a letter months into our time there by a young man, “A”, who was active in the fellowship whom we knew pretty well, there was some private meeting of some sort arranged to discuss it. Young guy didn’t share the content of the letter, but was concerned about some things coming from the pulpit and changes in the polity (pastor had managed, a la Driscoll, to take complete control–finances, everything). After private meeting was over, A told us, with wide eyes “That did NOT go well!” So at that point, we were on his side, how dare R treat the kid that way!
But when we next saw pastor at the church Christmas party, he had a stricken look on his face: “I have never had a week this bad in my ENTIRE life (he looked on the verge of tears)…these young pharisees, I just want to help them…but all these attacks…I just don’t know if I can take it anymore (quivering lip)!” We were incensed. So THAT’S why A refused to share the contents of his letter–it was some kind of vicious attack; why else would a guy nearly 40 be so devastated? R might be strange and a little wrong-headed, but poor guy, five children, trying to make do, serving these young guys–and THIS is how A repays him! I imagined telling young A off publicly, thought about even asking R if he’d let me deliver a little homily about young arrogant men and the evils of Pharisaism. I settled for rebuking A privately–“older, wiser guy to young fool”–for his misdeeds.
R had put on a convincing show indeed. Soon thereafter, R targeted A personally in a sermon, and A left the church. When A got married around that time, pastor R refused to even attend his wedding. A had become persona non grata, he soon moved 3 states away.
Later I got to see that “diabolical” letter that had so turned us all against A. It was one of the most innocuous things I’d ever read; so cautiously-worded he hardly said a thing beyond gentle exhortation. I couldn’t believe THIS had so put R on tilt over Christmas! Later, when I saw R play the quivering lip, teary-eyed card again (and I knew the story behind that one and how fraudulent it was), I realized I’d been completely duped. I sent an email of apology to A for ever doubting him–of course, by then it was too late to repair the damage.
This is a very common tactic among sociopaths, psychopaths, those afflicted with NPD. And that may be the answer, in part, to the phenomenon we’ve witnessed.
dee wrote:
I have family in NYC, Greater Boston, and our closest friends in world live in NH 15 min north of Mass border. So this might well be capable of being arranged.
About those quivering-lips and teary-eyes (per LawProf) I’ve known men who cry easily. That is just who they are. They’ll cry whenever they are emotionally moved.
I’ve also known men who can put on the quivery-voice and tears and can be very convincing. However, I’ve learned, that is used whenever they want to manipulate or persuade others.
One is genuine emotion and one is manipulation. It pays to know the person in order to recognize whether their tears are genuine expressions of emotion, or convenient tactics of manipulation.
Rob wrote:
Yes, it pays to know the party. Nothing against quivering lips or teary eyes, I occasionally have both. Yes, I knew “R”, knew him as well as you can know one who has no conscience. He destroyed one fellowship, tried to destroy another in a catastrophe that ended up going all the way to the state court of appeals before he was vanquished and thrown out of the church as part of a settlement, and was removed from his position as a leader in a third, the SGM (perhaps for being too diabolical–is that possible?).
@ Muff Potter: hmm. Prayer labyrinths are a very new thing, despite claims of medieval origin. There is a labyrinthine tile pattern on the floor of Charges Cathedral, but -literally – no information has survived as to why it is there, nor what it meant to the people of the era. (Though there is a great deal of “evidence” contra what I’m saying on prayer labyrinth sites.)
I do think we humans tend to put things we don’t understand into the “spiritual” category by default, which was handled very well on this week’s episode of Cosmos, re. comets. I also think we forget that a lot of the scientific discoveries we take foir granted are very recent.
Re. animals, I think there’s much discovery ahead as we learn more about how they communicate, and how we might be able to communicate with them in turn. But that’s a whole ‘mother topic! 🙂
@ numo: Chartes. Stupid autocorrect!
L@ numo: he other thought: for me, at least, being interested in science (natural sciences and astronomy) has probably made my sense of awe and wonder greater rather than less. Also, there is so very much that we simply don’t know about the natural world and likely never will know… That is pretty sobering!
*so* glad I don’t have to be scared of comets as portents of evil, btw…
My bad church experience was mild in comparison with what some of you have gone through. Interestingly… I was in leadership of a church that successfully fought off a take-over bid, but we did lose our senior pastor before we learned that it was in process.
Later the pastor we hired said he believed one thing (I support women in leadership and I’m not a Calvinist) but lived out and taught other beliefs so I’m no longer there but at least I am able to remain in relationship with everyone who stayed with the church and all who left. Thus my wounds are minor, still I empathize with those who have really been wounded.
Recovering Grace (the website detailing the Bill Gothard scandal) has a healing article by Dr. David Orrison today that is well worth looking at. He says, “If we can’t trust the ones who spoke to us in the name of the Lord, who can we trust? Besides, it all came out of the Bible, didn’t it? We understand that it didn’t seem to work for the teachers, but shouldn’t it still work for us? Or is it all bad? Was it all wrong? No. But it was all touched by the error. It’s a little like baking cookies and putting in soy sauce instead of vanilla. The rest of the recipe is just right, but the mistake affects the whole batch. The strange taste can be found in every bite. The only way to move forward is to put together a new batch.”
The comments are good as well.
http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/was-it-all-wrong/
emmaline wrote:
This is a good point. But I’ve heard so much error in the name of God and His Word, and flat out vicious lies and destruction of decent people’s reputation, I’ve heard the Bible twisted so brutally to justify just about anything the leader coveted, it’s been hard to get back into it. My prayer times are affected, sometimes it’s a bit difficult to pick up the Bible, which I know is the truth, and enjoy reading it. I come across a verse I heard twisted and used to justify abuse and it’s hard to read now. I haven’t looked at
ANOTHER ERROR-I HATE MY LAPTOP! IT KEEPS POSTING THINGS IF I EVEN GET NEAR THE TOUCH PAD.
…I haven’t looked at Hebrews 13:17 (which was preached on about five times in the last two months were at the former-SGM-leader-led church I attended) in four years, it’s too painful.
@ dee:
I would love to have some fun! Any progress on your research? No pressure, I assume your hands are full!
@ Gail:
I have not forgotten. Janet is in as well. I started some research and it does not look like it will be expensive. I have been tied up with a medical problem with my mother’s elderly husband for the last 4 days and I am doing these things on the side. I am hoping that after one more doctor’s appt tomorrow things will ease up. This is my next priorty. I actually dreamt about it last night!
@ numo: Chartres.
Finally got it right!
Val wrote:
We have to be careful when we try and project our own gender concepts onto ancient language and grammar, and use that to make theological arguments.
In Koine “spirit” is a simply a grammatically feminine noun. Some nouns (in Greek and also the Semitic languages) have a grammatical gender that is not connected in any way to what we might call their “functional” gender. For example, in Semitic languages like Akkadian and Hebrew, “hands” is a grammatically feminine noun, even though there is nothing inherently feminine (or masculine) in having a pair of hands. The term used in the NT when referring to what we call the Holy Spirit is simply the common noun meaning “life/breath/spirit” in Koine, which happens to be grammatically feminine.
If you speak one (or more) of the romance languages, you’re familiar with this same concept. “Leg” in Spanish, for example, is grammatically feminine, while “foot” is grammatically masculine. No apparent rhyme or reason, and of course both men and women have legs and feet, so it doesn’t really say anything re: functional gender.
Anyway, all of that to say, be careful using linguistic arguments to support theological arguments. It’s tricky and probably not very helpful. Besides, there are other ways to make your argument. 🙂
@ Mr.H:
Thanks for this, Mr. H.
numo wrote:
I totally agree with this. And the place will be awash with folks who, like yourslef, are believers, but cannot find a home amongst those folk who are too busy trying to run other people’s lives. Give it a shot; it has worked for me.
@ dee:
Sounds promising ( : Hope is was a heavenly dream!
@ dee:
Sounds promising ( : Hope is was a heavenly dream!
LawProf wrote:
I would love to meet some of you WW-ers! (Live north of Boston, frequent reader though I don’t post often, but so appreciate what you do)
Oy, my head is now spinning.
Seriously though, you know that political conservative site “discoverthenetworks” — there needs to be a site like that for these abusive Christian leaders.
They go out there and prop each other up to the public all the time, promote each other and endorse each other, but when things go wrong they claim they aren’t accountable to each other and keep their silence. They can’t have it both ways.
However, about a month ago Piper issued a semi rebuke to unaccountable greedy pastors when he addressed the Yonggi Cho conviction in his ‘Ask Pastor John’ thing. It’s not a strong rebuke, which is really what is needed, but it’s something.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-piper-responds-to-pastor-david-yonggi-chos-conviction-for-embezzling-12m-by-making-plea-to-us-pastors-115648/
The video is more helpful and specific than the quotes taken from the video. He in particular addresses the recent development of pastors who are accountable to their peers only or to men of influence and wealth.