'If you're horrible to me, I'm going to write a song about it, and you won't like it. That's how I operate.”― Taylor Swift link
Dr Warren Throckmorton is a Professor of Psychology at Grove City College, published author, and blogger at Patheos. It is rather ironic that he is involved in a national effort to reduce bullying amongst evangelical youth.
With Cru Regional Director Michael Frey, I co-founded a bullying prevention initiative called the Golden Rule Pledge. We promote the application of the Golden Rule by evangelical youth as a means of preventing school bullying. The GRP is listed on the federal government’s anti-bullying website and a partner with the Pacer Center for National Bullying Prevention Month in October of each year.
He has revealed that he, too, received threats at the same time as TWW received threats. TWW had been made aware of this and reported those threats to the police yesterday. Here is what Dr Throckmorton has to say in this post.
The folks behind Wartburg Watch have reported that they have been threatened since writing about Mr. Catanzaro’s cancer operation. I have as well. I do think Mr. Catanzaro should publicly condemn threats made with regard to coverage of his situation. I have emailed him and asked him several questions with no response.
I have also asked Mars Hill Church what prompted them to remove John Catanzaro’s articles from the Resurgence website with no reply.
For years, I have watched with dismay as Mark Driscoll discusses, with admiration, cage fighting, which he describes as
"there being nothing purer than two guys in a cage" (fighting) to see which man is better".
At the same time Driscoll had made threats to punch former pastors. This could be perceived, erroneously I am sure, by his followers as an endorsement of bullying. As we know, John Catanzaro and others are members of that church and admirers of Driscoll. Could it be that some of Driscoll's followers believe that threats are a part of "gospel" Christian behavior? Who knows? But I wish it would stop.
I am sure that John Catanzaro and Mark Driscoll would never, ever endorse threats to two women and a professor who investigated the publicly stated credentials of Mark Driscoll's naturopath. As Jesus said "I am the Truth." Since both of them are Christians, we would assume the two would endorse the truth, even it it is inconvenient or difficult.
Many people are Biblical literalists. We want you all to know that Dee and Deb takes things literally, especially when it comes to threats. To those who have threatened us and to those of you who are their friends, we want to emphasize something. Threats to go after people may be acceptable in Seattle but they are not in North Carolina and Pennsylvania. It is time to stop the bullying and act like Christians.
In fact, we would suggest that Mark Driscoll, John Catanzaro and others lead the way in in having their followers, like some evangelical youth, take the Golden Rule Pledge. It seems some of them, although adults, need remedial "gospel" education..
I pledge to treat others the way I want to be treated
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You’d think people would have come to understand by now that bullying has no place in God’s family. Prayers for you two and for Warren as well.
Tim
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Mark Driscoll has shown that he will do almost anything to intimidate people who he thinks are in his way. The fearless Wartburg Watch ladies are showing admirable restraint. I also love the irony in your writing, when you suggest that you are sure he does not really intend to bully people.
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@ Teri Anne:
I guess we don’t know what Driscoll really intends since his actions often don’t emulate his words or the words of Christ.
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The strangest thing is that even though Mark Driscoll has praised violence as a way of sorting out differences with his work colleagues (the two he had just had removed, for instance), his followers seem to thinks this is acceptable behavior. Or they would have done something about it by now, or at least dissociated themselves from his actions (but I suppose some have).
In the UK, Mark Driscoll has been heavily promoted by the Christian movement Newfrontiers, including the bloggers, Matt Hosier, Adrian Warnock and also the Newfrontiers leader Terry Virgo (see Terry Virgo’s current website).
I find it baffling why they don’t see through him and by not speaking out about his behaviour they effectively condone what he does. When I mentioned this to Adrian Warnock his response was that people like me might be suited to worship in a smaller church …. baffling… these same people wouldn’t dream of using violent threats themselves and I suspect would condemn people in another context for doing so.
My only explanation is that they don’t want to believe the obvious because they have too much emotional investment in their shared agenda; in other words they are wilfully corrupt on this basis.
Having said this, many people who know about Mark Driscoll in the UK have lost respect for him and see him as a maverick and not to be trusted, such that he is not being invited to UK conferences any more.
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Tim wrote:
Like the wise knight in Monty Python’s “In Search of the Holy Grail” said, “Then logically, she is a witch.”
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Dee and Deb – – Your threat is real as the threat I received by my former pastor when he publicly said he was going to sue me. That threat turned out real when I received the formal documentation of a $500,000 lawsuit. I’m glad you are not taking this lightly.
Weak men who use their assumed position of authority to bully are not just figments of our imagination. They are real. They must be exposed. And when there are crimes committed, they must be reported. I’m so glad you have reported this.
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You would think a guy who has blogged or said that he’s gotten death threats himself would not encourage a bullying atmosphere in his church, that he would not like the idea of any of his members sending death threats to other people.
I don’t know about Catanzaro, but Driscoll wrote this page about a preacher who was shot and used that as a platform to talk about other things:
Pastor Shot Dead in the Pulpit, by Mark Driscoll
A few pointers on church safety on that page:
3. DOES YOUR CHURCH HAVE SECURITY?
4. DOES YOUR CHURCH HAVE A WARM RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LOCAL POLICE?
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@ Peter:
Why they don’t speak out about Driscoll – he has the “right” doctrine. It’s all about the doctrine, ya know? That’s what I think, anyway.
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@ Daisy:
There is another question to add to his list.
Did your church really have a guy with a machete rush the stage….?
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@ Loren Haas:
That’s not a witches nose. That’s a carrot….
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How sure are we that Catanzaro is a member of MH?
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No, threats like this are not acceptable in Seattle or anywhere else for that matter. There are a lot of us in the Seattle area that are just as dismayed at Mark Driscoll and his followers as everyone else..
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You know what’s shocking to me about this? I’ve said it before on other threads, but I’ll say it again here: when Scientology goes after its enemies, it’s very careful to do so with some sort of legal basis. I used to get letters via snail mail, certified mail and Fedex (yes, same letter, three times, on several occasions). I was served once by three process servers for a subpoena (which I was able to dodge because the cult was too cheap to pay the third-party witness fee). That scared the living daylights out of me, but it was perfectly legal. Even nowadays, when Scientology has gone after people, it has done so cloaked in the First Amendment and trademark law (see, for example, the shenanigans in Texas around Monique Rathbun’s attempt to get an injunction to keep Scientology from spying on her and her family).
Maybe I just have to spell it out: When you act worse than Scientology, you have absolutely, completely and totally lost the moral ground. Threatening people with harm–yeah, that’s worse than Scientology running a person through the legal mill (which is pretty horrible to start out with). The people sending these threats to Deb, Dee and Professor Throckmorton need to stop and apologize. And their LEADERS need to seriously denounce such behavior. What you’re doing is not helping the cause of Christ. *shakes head*
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Enquiring minds want to know: can a pastor, church, or denomination eschew female preachers on the basis of 1 Timothy three, while ignoring the “no striker” part (KJV)?
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Daisy wrote:
This sort of writing just creates an atmosphere of paranoia and further insulates the “king” from the faithful sheep. Driscoll’s church employs muscle-bound young men in black shirts with “Mars Hill Security” written across the back, as well as off-duty Seattle police officers who actually show up for duty at Mars Hill dressed in their police uniforms. It all makes for a show of force. As for the anecdotal stories about rushing the stage and some guy who pulled a macehete, no evidence of such incidents has ever been recorded or discovered. Just an oft-repeated urban legend which plays well into the paranoia and insulation of Driscoll from his followers.
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I would note that the serpent in the garden of eden used Gods word to eve but added a little barb with it to turn the Lords meaning around. also when our Lord Jesus was tempted in the wilderness the devil quoted to Him what was written in the bible..Gods word. the devil tried to provoke Jesus to sin, using Gods word but outside of Gods will. also derrek prince noted that king saul sometimes prophesied by demons and sometimes by the Spirit of God. i think this is called having a mixture of spirits. this would explain how so many can be deceived by mark driscoll. it looks scriptural and then he adds the hook. my opinion only. i also believe that as he gets farther astray it will become obvious and no amount of scrubbing will hide it. my concerne is more that this doctrine and manipulation has gone into hundreds of churches nationwide. the zeal of the young pastors in acts 29 churches seems to be to hold up mark and the doctrine. they love him.
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Peters comment reminded me of this scripture: the prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so… jeremiah 5:31 kjv
I wept when i read that "my people love to have it so" Also i am reminded that when Samuel was retiring and the people refused the next judges but said give us a king like all the other nations, the Lord said to Samuel, they haven't rejected you, they have rejected Me, that i should not be Lord over them. i pray for the body of Christ to return to their first love.
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Last post Should have read return to their first Love.
sorry small phone.
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@Dee, Deb, and Dr. Throckmorton:
"And they departed..rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name. And daily, in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." Acts 5:41-42
Congrats!
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@ sam: Done. 🙂
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They need to stop censoring their copies of the NT, and really take to heart what Jesus said when he was before Pilate –
“my kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight.”
Frankly, I think all this garbage confirms MH’s status as a cult rather than anything remotely resembling a normal church. And the emotional immaturity of its “leader” is clearly having a profoundly negative impact in ever-increasing circles. (Like the ripples after a stone is thrown into still water.)
May God’s peace be with you, Deebs, and with Warren and his family as well.
They need to stop censoring their copies of the NT, and really take to heart what Jesus said when he was before Pilate – "my kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight." Frankly, I think all this garbage confirms MH's status as a cult rather than anything remotely resembling a normal church. And the emotional immaturity fits "leader" is clearly having a profoundly negative impact in ever-increasing circles. (Like the ripples after a stone is thrown into still water.) May God's peace be with you, Deebs, and with Warren and his family as well.
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Touchscreens! Should read… The emotional immaturity of its…
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dee wrote:
“Well, she turned me into a newt.
…
I got better.”
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@ numo: Technology is at times frustrating. 😉 Corrected it.
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@ Deb: thanks muchly!
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Anon wrote:
How is this any different than Mussoulini’s “Black Shirts” in Fascist Italy? Do they also spoon feed people castor oil like the Black Shirts used to do?
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__
“The Wartburg Watch Is Coming?!?”
hmmm…
…Over there, over there,
Send the word, send the word over there –
That The Wartburg Watch is coming,
That The Wartburg Watch is coming,
The drums rum-tumming
Everywhere!
So prepare, say a Prayer, Write a Blog, send the Word to b-e-w-a-r-e!
They’ll be over, they’re coming over,
And they won’t come back till it’s over Over there!
hum, hum, hum…
;~)
__
“Over There”,Music & Lyrics, George M. Cohan, c.1917, parody adaptation, from the public domain.
—
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@ Josh:
“Well, she turned me into a newt.
…
I got better.”
++++++++++++++
you mean, “bettah”
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D & D, you’re in my thoughts. these circumstances are crazy & disturbing.
but once again i’m amazed at the circus of what it is that goes by the name “evangelical”.
I’ve always hated that word, “evangelical”. thought it had an elitist ring to it — maybe in the tone of how it was said by someone who identified as such. very smug.
at this point any justification for such a spirit of elitism is shriveling up like a Styrofoam cup on a campfire.
thanks to a bevy of evangelical celebrity morons, their pastor groupies whose objectivity is ‘suspended in some kind of starstruck stupor’, and all the rest who, like Derek Smalls in the band Spinal Tap, feel their role is to be “kind of like lukewarm water.”
I prefer fire & ice and Dee & Deb.
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The Driscoll being rushed at by a machete story seems to have grown with the telling.
Wenatchee The Hatchet blogged about it in March 2012.
http://tinyurl.com/lzgmmx9
“…because, years ago, someone rushed one of the pastors with a knife.
It wasn’t just “one of the pastors”, it was Driscoll. I don’t doubt she’s sincerely trying to be as accurate as possible given the information she has. Since I was at MH when the knife-rush incident happened I can say that it did happen and I used to hang out with people who were security volunteers. The guy didn’t get very far and was intercepted fairly quickly because there already WERE volunteers handling security at that point. So Anonymous herself, in attempting to defend the actions and policies of Mars Hill seems to be relying on incomplete and at times inaccurate information. To her credit she just used the general term “knife” rather than “machete”. Knife is more accurate by being more general. The guys I knew who said they saw the knife said it was more bowie knife proportions and the important point was really that the guy with the knife was intercepted before he got anywhere near Driscoll.”
If memory serves me correctly, I’ve read elsewhere from someone else who was there that this weapon got bigger with the telling, but I don’t recall who else wrote that the would be attacker had a knife, not a machete.
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–Slightly off topic–
New article: Toxic Leaders in Our Ranks
http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2014/february/toxic-leaders-in-our-ranks.html
Excerpt:
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Wow, I am so sorry Dee and Deb. I am praying for you safety as well as Warren’s. This just underlines the fact that this man has fostered an environment of rabid worship of his person. People go frothing at the mouth crazy when you stand against this man. We had it happen to us, and I see it all the time on sites where these fanboys of Driscoll troll calling out anyone who might have questions about their savior/pastor’s leadership. It is becoming a terrorist cell this Mars Hill church and their members. I am really concerned for our faith if this church continues to crank out the brainwashed and militant followers it seems too.
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Peter wrote:
Maybe it’s schoolyard bully/courtier dynamic. Sucking up to the Big Bully, strutting around in imitation and basking in his reflected Importance, like Tabaqui the Jackal following after Shere Khan for scraps from the tiger’s kill.
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Rebecca Lynn wrote:
“See His face! Hear His voice! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
— Leon Uris, describing a Nazi Party Rally in Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
Not “right doctrine”. The Marxspeak term is much more on-target:
PURITY OF IDEOLOGY.
(Since there are no living eyewitnesses to the French Revolution, ask any survivor of Cambodia’s Killing Fields or China’s Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution what “Purity of Ideology” can justify.)
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Don’t have the link, but I remember a pastor/blogger who was a retired MMA cage fighter (didn’t want to press his luck after his third concussion) who read MD’s admiration article on cage fighting and pronounced him the worst type of MMA fanboy, the type who’s there “just to see someone get hurt” and vicariously live “I Can Beat You Up!” through what’s going on in the cage. The type of guy who in Roman times would be sitting as close as he could get to the arena, yelling “KILL! KILL! KILL!” to the gladiators.
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@ Janey:
Thanks for that article and the NPRone it leads to.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I feel compelled to once again refer to Mark Driscoll’s immortal utterance to the effect that he could not respect Jesus if he could beat Him up. This deserves a high ranking among the greatest sayings of champions of the faith.
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@ Janey:
Great article – thanks for the link!
I especially appreciated how the author pointed out:
(a) that the numerous NT warnings about “wolves” were, in the original context, primarily referring to LEADERS.
At my old Acts 29 church, we heard much preaching about so-called “wolves” but it was always targeted at members, not leaders (i.e. if you gossipped/critiqued leadership/asked questions, you were a “wolf”).
(b) that being a “wolf” (toxic leader) isn’t just about doctrine – it’s about behavior. A general or a pastor can have an impeccable CV and yet be utterly unsuitable for certain leadership roles due to behavioral issues, lack of required interpersonal skills, etc.
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JeffB wrote:
I think he also mentioned Jesus’ bad boy tattoo as he returns on his white horse. Drive me nuts!
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JeffB wrote:
That’s rather sad considering Jesus allowed himself to be beaten by the Roman soldiers.
I’ve wondered how much of Driscoll’s manly man persona was an act and how much was sincere.
Men do not tend to go to church as often as ladies. Several books came about about 15 years ago about why men don’t go to church – and the books said men stay away because men find church “too feminine.”
I can only assume that if any part of Driscoll’s He-Man routine is just a routine (and not in any way heart felt) that he put it on to try to attract more young men to his church.
I don’t think I’d want to befriend or date any man who is attracted to a church that features Driscollian antics. I’d think a guy who was already mature and secure in his manhood does not need Bluto as his preacher. Or, Bluto crossed with Sensei John Kreese (adult bully in The Karate Kid movie).
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Daisy wrote:
You said the sekrit woid, Daisy:
http://youtu.be/sVziLnvgXkw
(Long leader – skip to around 50 seconds in)
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@ Daisy:
“I’ve wondered how much of Driscoll’s manly man persona was an act and how much was sincere. Men do not tend to go to church as often as ladies. Several books came about about 15 years ago about why men don’t go to church – and the books said men stay away because men find church “too feminine.””
++++++++++++++++++++
my observation is that Christian culture has swung the pendulum so far to the masculine side — in silly proportions — as an appeal to attract men. I suppose I can understand the motivation, but really, the power brokers (& those in their sway) have gone way too far.
I expect it will equalize back to a more reasonable, equitable place — with help from male & female voices who value each other. I so look forward to the day when my humanity, in church, is more important than my chromosomes.
—–
“I’d think a guy who was already mature and secure in his manhood does not need Bluto as his preacher. Or, Bluto crossed with Sensei John Kreese (adult bully in The Karate Kid movie).”
+++++++++++++
message to church leaders: I think you underestimate the average man. I think they are more secure in who they are than you assume. your polarized he-man message is what stirs up the self-doubts. played with the God card, insecurity begins to run deep.
My feeling, at least. from much observation.
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elastigirl wrote:
I have had the same thought many times over the last five years as 'masculine Christianity' has reached a fevered pitch.
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@ Peter:
Hi Peter, I note what you say. Also some of the churches (including some evangelical Anglicans) are, or were until recently, quite keen on C J Mahaney and similar writers.
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@ Kolya:
I would be fascinated to know…outside the 9 Marks circle who is still using reading Mr Humility? Maybe the secret is to blackmail one’s way into a career! 😛
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Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebs!!!
You know I think you have a fascinating and potential post in the making that could really be the body slam (or whatever the MMA equivalent could be!)
You should write a post comparing and contrasting how Dana Farber and Mars Hill have responded. Look at how quickly and transparently DFCI moved. How they have done or are doing some kind of investigation. How quickly they issued statements, etc…
THEN compare that with nothing but silence from Mars Hill. Scrubbing The Resurgence in silent, No statement, no desire to set the record straight.
Then you can ask…why does the secular institution have higher ethical standards than a church committed to “the Gospel” Why is DFCI committed to transparency and Mars Hill responds in silence?
That could be a juicy post… 😀
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HA!!! Someone has been covering their tracks. This is from John Catanzaro’s website. Note he stresses no affiliations.
http://www.hwicancerresearch.org/
All research is privately sponsored and funded through the Cancer Research Group and under private study. We are not affiliated with any vaccine-development industry, pharmaceutical industry, or medical biotech-related industry. I invite you to assist us with the development of these cancer fighting strategies by supporting this vital, integrative research. If you are interested in making a donation, please click on how you can help above. We thank you for your continued support of the HWIFC Cancer Research Group, where medical science and integrative therapies come together to help reach a cure.
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Deebs-
What is your take on this article? This is from Catanzaro’s website its about pancreatic cancer.
http://www.hwicancerresearch.org/data/contentfiles/File/pdf/Berkson_Pancreatic_paper.pdf
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Eagle wrote:
Some twist on this sentiment should be Mars Hills’ new logo:
Mars Hill Scrubbing Logo 😆
(If my image link there ever gets broken, do an image search for the phrase “scrubbing bubbles.”)
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This doesn’t have a scent of “Jesus is my boyfriend” that said…
Mark Driscoll…”Don’t Stop Cleaning!!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KFKQpWgFgE
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@ Eagle:
The Journal of Integrative Medicine sounds legit. I would wait for further testing of any discovery though. Double blind trials often fail, the placebo effect can be stronger than we realize.
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Deb wrote:
And yet – http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/07/nyt-bombshell-women-prefer-manly-men/
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Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
From the article: “Despite women being told that they want men more involved in traditionally female household tasks like cooking, cleaning and childcare, when men actually do so, wives find their husbands considerably less sexy.”
Just goes to show how deeply ingrained stereotypes are. Cooking is female; chef is male. Cleaning is female; janitor is male. Childcare is female; babysitting is male. Even our vocabulary is sexist. 🙁
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@ Eagle:
Here is my response.
“In this case report, we describe the treatment of a 46- year-old man who was diagnosed with metastatic pan- creatic cancer in October 2002. ”
Note: this is a single, anecdotal case report. It is interesting but no conclusions can be drawn from it. This was not a prospective, randomized double blind study which was then reviewed by experts in the field of pancreatic cancer.
Please note that the patient did receive standard chemotherapy which could have worked. He also could have received other treatment modalities. Those could have worked. His immune system could have worked. Or, it could have been a number of other factors.
My own daughter’s tumor was really bad. We refused the radiation therapy after the second operation in which we were told she still had residual tumor. There were many reasons for this decision but none of them were based on the hope that oranges would save her. It turned out to be the right decision. What happened? The doctors do not know. It was theorized that her immune system may have fought the residual tumor. But we don’t know but I am grateful to God for allowing her to be spared.
Back to the quoted study-We would need to look into further, large studies which employed this same treatment. Also, is this guy still alive?
Note their conclusion and the words “may, possibility”
In summary, the integrative therapy described in this article MAY have the POSSIBILITY of extending the life of a patient who is customarily considered terminal.
Finally, long term studies have, unfortunately shown the antioxidants do not affect long term survival in chronic illnesses and can even cause harm in certain cancers.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/article/20140209/GPG0706/302090366/Charles-Krauthammer-column-health-care-myths-we-live-by
Swedish researchers report that antioxidants make cancers worse in mice. It’s already known that the antioxidant beta-carotene exacerbates lung cancers in humans. Not exactly what you’d expect given the extravagant — and incessant — claims you hear made about the miraculous effects of antioxidants.
“In fact, they are either useless or harmful, conclude the editors of the prestigious Annals of Internal Medicine: “Beta-carotene, vitamin E and possibly high doses of vitamin A supplements are harmful.” Moreover, “other antioxidants, folic acid and B vitamins, and multivitamin and mineral supplements are ineffective for preventing mortality or morbidity due to major chronic diseases.” So useless are the supplements, write the editors, that we should stop wasting time even studying them: “Further large prevention trials are no longer justified.”
Is this the final word? No. But before we start spending a gazillion dollars to have some naturopath pump us full of “stuff” we should at least understand the issues involved and make informed decisions, especially when it comes to “claims” that certain doctors are Harvard affiliated and NIH approved.
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@ dee:
Oh, and please note that the Swedish study about the deleterious effects of antioxidants study was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine. Do you know how hard it is to get a paper published in that fine journal? It is considered a significant achievement in the life of a researcher if he gets a paper published there because they go through the methodology, etc. with a fine tooth comb and send the submitted paper back to the writers for fine tuning. The process is excruciating.
I wonder how hard it is to get a paper published on the Health and Wellness Institutes website….
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@ Eagle:
Note the word “industry.” That seems a bit misleading. Would you consider Harvard’s Dana Farber Cancer Institute a vaccine development industry? However, they at least do not mention it. They way some things were going, I was waiting for a claim that a space shuttle mission tested their stuff in outer space! 🙂
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Peter wrote:
I used to be involved with New Frontiers a long time ago, and I think there are two answers to this question. One is that these ‘high-flier’ leaders gradually get out of touch with what is going on on the ground and get too involved with their own little world of fellow leaders. A kind of free church clergy/laity divide.
The second and more important is an understandable failure to distinguish discernment from gossip. I say understandable, as I remember hearing Terry Virgo say once, rightly in my view, how often rumours circulated amongst traditional churches about what was happening in the newer ‘house church’ scene in the UK, rumours having little or no relationship to the truth. Gross exaggerations and only ever believing the worst. Whatever the errors perceived in the house churches, they were not being addressed by the mainstream and falsehoods spread instead.
It is then hardly surprising that even legitimate criticism in the end starts to be perceived by these leaders as yet more false rumour-mongering.
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Ken,
Really interesting insight into this issue.
Works for Terry Virgo, in my opinion.
Adrian Warnock – he is intelligent and astute and dishes out criticism himself (e.g. contrast comments on the Catholic Church with support over the Mahaney situation) and is very knowledgeable about the media. But even when confronted with material that shows Mark Driscoll in action he doesn’t appear to ‘get it.’ There must be something more going on…..
Matt Hosier comes across as being a bit more naive and and susceptible to one and two.
I also think there are others who don’t dare speak out – when I read Newfrontier blogs any criticism is hedged very carefully and put in such a subtle fashion that it can be plausibly denied as criticism – as if the person is worried about the consequences.
Any other Newfrontier readers could comment?
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Peter wrote:
A God (or MY Cult Leader) Can Do No Wrong?
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Dee!! Check your email please….
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@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Depends on how one is defining “manly.” What Driscoll considers “manly” comes off as a Hollywood parody of manliness.
I’d say most women don’t want a weak, wimpy, wussy man, but, that does not mean they want the other extreme of “Cave Man,”(as Driscoll sells), a Frat Boy type of guy who belches in front of them, drinks beer all day, does nothing but watches NFL, and cracks sexist jokes about how women are terrible drivers
Did you see the movie “Bedazzled”? There’s a part in that movie where Brendan Fraser finds out the girl of his dream likes “sensitive” men.
So Satan (played by Liz Hurley), turns him into an overly sensitive guy – he cries at the sight of sun sets, reads poetry to the girl all the time, plays an acoustic guitar, IIRC.
He’s sensitive to the extreme, so she runs off with the first “manly” guy who approaches her while she’s on the date with “Mr Sensitive.”
Women want sensitivity in a man, but to a degree. It’s rather the same thing with “manliness,” we want it in balance with the poetry reading, not to over power it.
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Victorious wrote:
I’ve said it before, but I’ve never understood why gender complementarians assume cooking is feminine, when so many chefs I see on Food Network are male.
It seems about evenly split on FN, there seem to be about as many male chefs as female on that network.
For every Julia Child, there is a Guy Fieri, Justin Wilson, Emeril, Mario Batali, Alton Brown, Bobby Flay, and Anthony Bourdain.
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Ken wrote:
Or perhaps such leaders know what is true and what isn’t true and want to suppress the truth?
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@ Daisy:
Taking that idea a step further, Daisy, I have never understood why anybody, comps or not, have to have somebody tell them how to tell girls from boys. There has got to be something profoundly wrong at all kinds of levels when people have to wear a “name tag” so other people can tell if they are a girl or a boy.
Who is kidding whom here?
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Nancy wrote:
Equally comical is having to teach a girl how to be a girl and a boy how to be a boy! lol Makes me chuckle every time I read a “How to be a Godly Woman.”
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@ dee:
I doubt it. Brits tend to reserve judgment until they know the facts.
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You know SGM Survivors is going downhill when I start to qoute from Leslie Nielson and Airplane on there! 😛
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How to know if you’re a sensitive male.
Do you watch “Beaches” at least twice a year?
Are you on Babs Streisand’s mailing list?
Do you do yoga to relax?
Do you have your own Loufa hanging in your shower?
Do you use a hair conditioner after you shampoo?
Do you use a hair dryer instead of going with the natural look?
Do you discuss cooking shows with your lady friends?
Do you HAVE lady friends?
These are all possible indicators that you’re an egalitarian and a sensitive male.
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So it is better to be an “insensitive male”. Give me a break. It is insensitive men who do not know how to satisfy a woman, because they don’t ever realize that she does not experience things the way he does! That is why so many married women lose interest in sex with their husband — he gets off and then gets off, and she is left unsatisfied. If that happens often enough, she will lose interest.
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@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
Sounds like my fiance is the right guy for me! Not only does he watch cooking shows but he is a better cook than I am (I refuse to share my baking crown with anybody).
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An Attorney wrote:
This is commonly called the “Wham! Bam! Thank ya, Ma’am!”
Optionally substitute “roll over and conk out” for “Thank ya, Ma’am!”
Because once he’s finished Whamming/Bamming/Penetrating/Colonizing/Conquering/Planting, what does he care?
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Victorious wrote:
I am of that generation that was going to raise “gender neutral” children. My what a shock it was to my friends when those peacenik little boys made weapons out of nearly everything.
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Daisy wrote:
I’d cite Jimmy Kimmel’s “The Man Show” as my type example, but (non-Geico) “Cave Man” will do.
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Victorious wrote:
It feels to me as though there has been an explosion in the last 5 – 10 years of books by Christians on “how to be a man.” (And a lot about womanhood.)
I saw one advertised a few days ago that was particularly obnoxious. I wish I could remember the name of it and the site, but the author claims to be a Christian, and he’s written a new book about ‘how to be a man.’
His blog post was all about his new book, and how feminists are trying to feminize boys and men, and so on. His views of men/women were even more severe than Driscoll’s are and filled with ad hominem against feminists.
I’ve said this before, but I really suspect that a lot of the Christian pushing of the gender roles stuff, and the “how to be a man” books, is not in support of biblical manhood/womanhood but more anti- feminism and anti- homosexuality in motivation.
I think a lot of social conservatives and Christians are afraid that culture has come to embrace things like equality for women more and in favor of homosexuality. They view things like that as being the reason America has gone down the drain.
(I am a social conservative too, so I kind of understand how they think. I do not always share their views on every thing, or on how some views should be carried out.
I think they over-state their case on the the gender role stuff often, for instance. Or, I don’t necessarily view reverting back to 1950s gender roles as a cure for American morality problems.)
If you look at a lot of gender complementarian posts or books, they usually make a point of mentioning stuff like how horrible homosexuality, abortion, or feminism is.
In a lot of the stuff I’ve seen by gender complementarians and social conservatives, it seems rare to just have a post saying, “According to the Bible, Women are awesome because of ‘X’ reasons: Reason 1 Women Are Great; Reason 2 Women Are Great; Reason 3…”
Or, “According to the Bible, being a woman means Positive Explanation 1, Positive Explanation 2 …”
What I usually see in gender complementarian content, is, rather, stuff stated in the negative, like, “How horrible is it that feminists have encouraged women to have careers and not marry and have children! How horrible feminism have caused little boys to fall behind in school.”
Are they really (a.) in favor of women (and men) in general, or (b.) just opposed to feminism, liberalism, and homosexuality? I think it’s more “b” than “a”
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Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
It’s sad when Christians adopt secular ideas about men and women, including the false idea that all male-female interactions are laden with sexual tension or will end up in sex.
Christians holding to this assumption has led to all sorts of problems for adult Christian singles.
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nmgirl wrote:
Unfortunately, parents are not the only ones who have influence in children; teachers, friends, church associations, neighbors, and the media. Parents instill their values and correct those that are absorbed from other sources that are wrong.
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Did you all see the face book article that’s been posted about a Methodist Youth Pastor. He shamed one of his youth during a Bible study, then polled the students if they supported his stance. Eventually, the youth committed suicide. So, so sad!
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@ An Attorney:
There are marriages that are like that, which I don’t dispute, but I am wary of the Baptist and conservative Christian preacher notion that all married women are cold as ice in the bedroom but single ladies are, shall we say, insatiable. (These themes come up in their sermons, radio broadcasts, and blogs often.)
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@ jack:
Do you have a link to that story?
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@ Gav Whi:
I wish that were 100% true, unfortunately, not always.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I have had two fist fights in 65+ years — won both with a KO, and avoid fights like the plague. I have written poetry, enjoy classical music and occasionally the ice skating duos on TV. I have only found one person who can swing a sledge hammer as hard and accurately as I can, even at my age. This weekend, I took out nine metal fence posts that had been set in concrete, digging out enough to pull the 60 plus pounds of crete and post out of the ground, busted the concrete off the posts, and handled all of the above. I love watching cartoon movies and hate zombies, vampire, etc. movies. I have hunted and know how to skin and clean squirrel, rabbit, and larger edible game, but I my most prized possession is the double barrel external hammer shotgun that belonged to my great grandfather and would explode if you tried to use it today. I am good with babies and small children, and preferred children’s church duty to ushering, and I don’t mind diaper duty. I am a master of the grill and regularly cook and shop. The laundry has been my responsibility for all 35 years of my marriage. I can form, pour and finish concrete, build a garage or rehab a house. My work is at a desk with a computer. And I believe in full equality without regard to gender or gender preference. I know how to balance books, do double entry bookkeeping, and mediate disputes. I have driven truck, hauled shingles up a ladder on my shoulder, and split firewood with an axe, wedges and maul.
And I tear up a family weddings, funerals etc.
So am I a sensitive, egalitarian, manly man? Does one of those not fit?
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@ Daisy:
You know Daisy, it is interesting that studies (that aren’t about human fermones, etc.) divide people into personality types and have noted that people tend to marry culturally similar, yet personality-opposite spouses.
The ideal “masculine” and “feminine” is culturally determined. What may be considered manly in one culture may be considered lower-class (i.e. red neck) in another and what may be considered effeminate in one culture may be considered very manly in another – I lived in a culture for a while where men wore eyeliner and spent as much time and money on their appearance as women, but fixing a car and getting greasy was considered a servant’s task.
However, we tend to marry best when we compliment one another’s personalities. So, churches end up catering to the “engineer-type” men (intellectual, analytical, etc.) and “kindergarten-teacher-type” women (empathetic, supportive,emotive). Because, those are they personality types that tend to like structure and tradition enough to go to church.
What is interesting, is that the majority of people in society fall into a different category (frankly, a catch-all, where people like sports, arts, entertainment etc.). So, in the last few decades, churches have attempted to connect with this “other” category, by improving (or not) worship, updating church foyer’s having “jam” parise-nights and trying to look more “cool” to attract that demographic. The problem, of course, is that that demographic is not the typical guy: get good job and look for wife and the gals are not: look for man and settle down types. So, what churches inadvertently do (not Driscoll’s, he is into some sort of porn fantasy) is try to get all these “sports, artsy, fun-loving, free spirits to conform into the engineer-types or the housewife-mother types. Of course it backfires.
I mean, really? Not every woman dreams of baking cookies and cleaning houses and not every guy goes from honours high school to intense engineering university courses to a full-time job and then just adds wife *poof* instant perfection (according to churches).
But so many church-types are the housewife-happy, lovey women and serious, work-hard traditionalist men, that they don’t get how lopsided church culture is in the greater society.
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And, on top of all of that, I know how to lead singing and love to sing romantic love songs from the old movie and Broadway musicals, read theology and opinion for pleasure, and chose a brilliant and strong woman as a possible partner in life (and she is).
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An Attorney wrote:
Jimmy’s just being provocative. We should know by now he sees in 2 rather than 3 dimensions, so to speak, and in just 2 colours, black & white. A truly masculine man like you, who doesn’t have to stick to ridiculous human defined lists of what is male/female ( most of which is merely human & has no inherent gender bias) has so many nuances he can’t possibly manage that he just won’t get it. There are many kinds of masculinities, only some of which are visible to Jimmy. Or Mark Driscoll come to that. How horrible to live in such a limited world.
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Ken wrote:
It is surprising to me! No one, including leaders, should brush off a legitimate criticism as rumor-mongering. When we do that we are painting with too broad of a brush.
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Gav Whi wrote:
So you’d continue to take treatments from a medical professional that someone referred you to even if you had concerns about this medical professional’s credentials and advertisements? You wouldn’t make a judgement to say “hold off” on being treated by this person? Nor would you communicate your concerns to a friend who is considering treatment from this same professional?
You make dozens of judgements every day, Gavin, as we all do . . . 🙄
You’re sounding a bit superior 😉
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http://www.believeoutloud.com/latest/shamed-how-spiritual-abuse-contributed-my-sons-death
HEY…here’s the link to that article. 🙁
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You know whats sad with this blog, it has gathered so many people who love a good ol witch hunt. You know I waited to see what all you published and have read all the comments. Because you said you to wait so I have.
While I am sure that neither Driscoll or Catanzaro are not perfect people. It is undeniable that they want to help people.
I do not agree with threats, but then I don’t agree with blasting people to talking about people or blogging about people to make them look bad. If you feel that these two guys are so bad, then why not pray for them. Talking about them will get no where but prayer gets answers. We do believe all things are possible with God yes?
Hating these people will get you know where, while you may have a sense of moral victory. But what good is that? Will that lead anyone to the cross?
If Catanzaro has done illegal things the state will hold him accountable. If Driscoll has done illegal things the state will hold him accountable.
As a christian body why are we so set on letting what divides us be what were known for? We are no different then those who are without Christ. Let be known for what unites us as a body. Let Chirst be known. Be known for your love for God and for people.
Love gets answers, it covers over a multitude of sins, it softens hearts, it never fails.
I think its important to ponder, is this what your writing about and talking about to destroy a man, to belittle them, to make a mockery of them?
Or is it the love of God has compelled us to reach out to these men? We not only care about them but also the people they are in contact with that they would be saved?
Why would Driscoll or Catanzaro ever want to respond to your blog with all of this lashing out at them?
So far from all that I have read, we smear peoples names, because at some point we have been hurt by a leader in a church. Hurt people wanting to hurt people.
If you don’t want to post this I understand I read your rules. But Dee & Deb you as leaders of this blog are guilty of hurting people. Not only did I feel attacked and belittled, I felt that with all the comments of sarcasm people left about me were endorsed. Thankfully I have a good church where I am grounded in otherwise it could of been my undoing if I was young in the Lord. How are you any different now than Driscoll now?
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Eagle wrote:
Is this the point of the blog?
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nmgirl wrote:
That was my mother…until at the age of three I took my flexible straw from McD’s or wherever and turned it into a gun. Thus it began.
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@ Sean:
Sean….and what about Paul Petty and Bent Myer? Is it ok for Mark Driscoll to have hurt them, their families and reputation. Do Paul Petty and Bent Myer matter?
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@ Sean:
Well if we had a MMA match in front of Dee’s house and if someone rushed the cage with a machete then it could be like a Mars Hill service. Perhaps in the honor of Mark Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” maybe Dee can give an expository sermon on ************* (ed.)and the Biblical basis for it! :-p
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@ Sean:
Christians are called to exercise discernment. And if we love, we are to warn others about wolves. Driscoll is a wolf. Catanzaro is a wolf. Simple. Easy to determine. People who go to Catanzaro are risking their lives and funding his continuing quackery. People who get close to Driscoll may get, to quote Driscoll, thrown under the bus. Both men are frauds. To remain silent is to allow evil to continue unabated. Would you prefer that we allow evil to continue or should we speak out against it? If you speak against any sin, then you are a hypocrite if you think we should not speak out against the frauds that we see. And if you don’ speak out against sin that harms people, then by your silence, you participate in them being abused! That is how every tyrant gets into power, by the silent acquiescence of good people who do not speak up.
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You know in American history there was always sayings that were used to rally people to action. Sayings like…
Remember Bunker Hill
Remember the Alamo
Remember Pearl Harbor
Remember the USS Arizona
etc…
As long as we talk about about Mark Driscoll I propose a new catch phrase.
Remember Paul Petry and Bent Myer. It’s our responsibility to remember that they are victims also. They have been slandered, maligned, and dragged through the mud. Their families have been hurt and what happened against them is really quite sick. So anytime someone from the Mars Hill machine defends John Catanzaro or Mark Driscoll we need to remind them that Paul Petry and Bent Myer are people to. They deserved love, respect, and mark Driscoll should beg for forgiveness for the way he harmed him. If Mark Driscoll is a Christian I can think of no better way of him to redeem himself than putting his name, church and finances on the line be seeking pure forgiveness in total humility. And if he did that…everyone here from the Deebs to myself would stand by and support Mark Driscoll if he did that.
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From Todd Whilhelm’s blog…from Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
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Eagle wrote:
Absolutely not okay!!!! They 100% matter. Everyone matters. It still doesn’t make it right to hurt someone that hurt someone. With a situation like that we need to hate the sin but love the sinner.
We have to remember we a disciple who is always being discipled while discipling.
We never want to be a Pharisee.
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To be silent and allow the powerful and influential to harm people is to be complicit in the harm. That is what the Pharisees did, they were powerful and corrupt. Sean, you are advocating the Christians here become corrupt by not speaking out against the evil being done by the powerful and influential.
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Just to be clear, I don’t go to Mars hill and never have, and Catanzaro is not my doctor. But I have great friends who see Doctor catanzaro.
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@ Sean:
Sean…I think you really should read this about Mark Driscoll. Pay close attention to the documentation. But this needs to be read.
http://joyfulexiles.com/
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An Attorney wrote:
Not at all. I think it is important to protect the flock. But we need to first ask ourselves “how would Jesus handle the situation?”
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Sean wrote:
Jesus didn’t mince His words when He confronted and exposed the Pharisees and He did so publicly. Paul did the same in confronting false teachers.
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Sean, is it okay with you that your friends are seeing a man for ‘medical treatment’ who is a proven liar and who uses a profession of Christianity to make himself seem credible?
You say that it is undeniable that he wants to help people? I deny it. He is defrauding people for money. He is a WOLF, he needs to be called out BY Christians, not just prosecuted by the government for his false claims, otherwise there will be some credulous Christians who will buy the argument that he is being persecuted for his faith.
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Peter wrote:
The answer to this is quite simple: New Frontiers, at bottom, is similar in kind to Mar Hill and Driscoll. They package their brutality with more cleverness, but they are at bottom a very destructive group that one should steer clear of at all costs. For all his brutishness, twisted theology and smug pride, Marc Driscoll is at least relatively easy to identify as a bully. Terry Virgo, Mr. Warnock, et. al. are simply putting a kinder face on the same spirit.
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@ Sean:
Where were you attacked and belittled? Can you give examples?
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@ Sean:
Great friends who see Catanzaro means what?
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Victorious wrote:
Your right Jesus and Paul did confront people face to face in love. I think the greatest confrontation was with Judas. We just want to make sure we leave room for grace and love to be able to work. Thank God room was left for the murder Saul for him to become Paul. If Driscoll is influencing thousands the wrong way, let’s pray for him to have a change of heart, a real Saul to Paul experience with God. Can we pray and believe for that?
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Sean wrote:
Hmmmm, so we “don’t talk” about people who may be misrepresenting themselves in the name of Jesus? We don’t talk about it so that people who may not know their doctor is not what he presents himself to be will continue to be mislead?
Let’s see, if you went to MacDonald’s and got a hamburger and found it really pork and you get sick with pork, you would let it go and tell no one because God can do all things, right?
Bernie Madoff said he was investing his clients’ money and making them a fortune. Perhaps people shouldn’t have complained because God can do all things and we just need to pray for Bernie.
Who cares about those who spend their hard earned money and ask for help from friends and family for their excellent doctor who is affiliated with Harvard’s Dana Farber? Who cares if they sped their last dime on a doctor who is not what he claims to be.
Whether you like it or not, Catanzaro is not affiliated with either Dana Farber or Dr Anderson because they told me so and I believe them. They deny it. He has never been a principle (can someone teach him that the word is principal! He should be embarrassed that he doesn’t know how to spell what he wishes to be) investigator for the NIH and people have searched the database for years.
So give me one good reason why I should believe a guy who has apparently not told the truth in his biography? Your friends are free to spend their money when and where they wish. However, there are others who might not be so inclined and they deserve to know the truth.
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Sean, I have re-read your comments and the responses to it. I saw no belittling, no attacks, and no sarcasm.
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dee wrote:
My old boss is and was a patient there. Either the treatment worked or God healed him.
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@ jack:
Hi jack,
That is really an horrific tale at the link you’ve provided. What’s even more disturbing is that the ‘youth leader’ who threw that beautiful young man into a hole of despair, probably doesn’t have even one twinge of conscience.
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Sean wrote:
Can you not think of other options? Could it be his immune system kicked in? How exactly do you know for sure that it was Catanzaro’s treatment? In fact, how do you know what Catanzaro’s treatment was? And why would you believe anything that he says since, it seems, he has not told the truth about Dr Anderson and DFCI
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@ Sean:
I guess then that we do not report crimes or shyster like activity since Jesus will take care of it. The nsxt time someone breaks into your house and threatens to kill you and steals everything, don’t tell the police. Be quiet and pray for the burglar’s soul.
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Marsha wrote:
I disagree. He may want to help relieve people of the contents of their wallet.
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An Attorney wrote:
Amen!
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Sean wrote:
He would probably handle it by confronting the sin as he did with the women at the well. He confronted the tax collectors and caused them to pay restitution. He always exposed sin to the light.
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Marsha wrote:
And if I call Jesus, Paul, Peter or any of those others a liar, does that make them so.
Marsh I know from a distance right now it must seem that way, but when you see what has happened up close. I beg to differ.
If you get a chance to call him out, what do you hope the out come is? Do you hope it brings everyone closer to The Lord including Catanzaro.
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Sean wrote:
So, let me get your reasoning. If Driscoll hurt Petry and Meyer unjustly, we should just shut up and let him do it because to expose the truth of what he did would be wrong? This is making no sense.
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@ Sean:
Sean, you continue to defend and deny the truth that has been presented on this blog, with citation to the documentation. Before it was scrubbed, the Catanzaro web site demonstrated that he was a liar, a fraud, and that he was conning people out of their money for potentially dangerous treatment that has no proven success by any acceptable standard — double blind random assignment trial against either a proven treatment or a placebo is the minimum. He LIED about his (non) relationship with DCFI and Harvard, with the national medical research institutes.
No professional trying to actually help people does those things.
Your defense of him shows that you are willfully blind, failing to see the handwriting on the wall. Either you are paid to defend him or you are in cahoots with him for other reasons, or you are a worthless troll. Take your pick. But you are an agent that will help him continue his fraud and you should consider whether that is a reasonable thing to do.
An investigation was performed and it shows he is a liar and fraud. He cannot defend himself. Now go back into your hole in you mother’s basement, get back into your pajamas, and use your computer to learn some common sense.
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@ Sean:
I am so sorry that you are having to confront the fact that there is a serious problem with Catanzaro’s representation of himself. I have proven my point. i have contacted DFCI, the NIH, NeoBioLab, and Dr Anderson They all deny partnering with him on squat. Either there is a vast conspiracy of people “out to get” your boy or your boy has a serious problem that is excruciatingly embarrassing to him and to those who “believe in him.”
I do not need to contact him. I am dealing with what he said publicly about himself. Anything that is claimed in public can be dealt with in public. The same goes fro Driscoll. These guys jump up and down, saying” look at me, look at me-I’ve got a cure.” So I get to answer back publicly. They do not get to say it publicly and hide .
You have a problem. Stop trying to make us the problem and focus on why Catanzaro has said things that do not appear to be true. He is the problem, not us. If he had told the truth then this post would not have occurred. The burden is on him and him alone so stop deflecting on those who have pointed out the problem and focus on the problem.
I will no longer discuss this with you. Your arguments are silly. The truth should be told. He said some things that are being denied by great institutions and well known people. Jesus came because we are sinful-all of us and that means your man could be a sinner who does not tell the truth and uses that to get people to spend their hard earned money on something that has been misrepresented.
You must deal with it and stop deflecting onto us. You have made your points. I feel sorry for you and your boss. Things are not what they seem. Pray for courage to face the truth.
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@ Sean:
I am getting ready to go to bed and I am concerned that your responses that are getting a bit out of hand. I am not banning you from commenting but all of your comments are going into moderation. and will need to approved, one by one. Since I will be sleeping, they may not get approved until Tues @8AM EST. Sorry, but I don’t like explosions when I can’t watch what is being said.
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dee wrote:
I understand. Sorry
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Why is it every controversial action, sermon, or writing by certain pastors gives me the chills? How come when I’m reading Communist and Nazi history I get the same chill? For example, from under the bus tonight I read this about those who would be kicked under the bus:
“The classes and the races, too weak to master the new conditions of life, must give way. They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust.” – Karl Marx
Let the reader understand.
Discernment is needed today, else a strong man takes over as has happened in the past. I don’t see a man today as strong as those who succeeded for a time in the past. There are some with misplaced ambition, and we have our mini Hitlers and Lenins, but more worrisome are the shocking number of people who blindly follow a strong man.
Step back and look at the bigger picture, and then determine for yourselves if discernment, criticisms, exposing lies, and telling truths is necessary, or indeed if it is a solemn duty. For if it is your duty, the cost of shirking it could end up being pain for many.
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Just wanted to share a link to a book that I just finished reading. It sums up nicely, in laymen terms, the scientific evidence about Natural Remedies, Alternative Medecine, etc….
http://www.amazon.com/Do-You-Believe-Magic-Alternative-ebook/dp/B009NG3A2M
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Bridget wrote:
I agree, but the context of my involvment with New Frontiers was the charismatic movement. Now there was much mixture of good and bad in the charismatic movement in its earlier years, but I remember just how much criticism was based on rumours and false allegations, some quite mind-bogglingly stupid. When this is the norm rather than the exception, you can’t blame leaders for tending to assume all criticismm is based on prejudice or jealously etc. I’m sure this is in part why charismatics today can be taken in by the Hinns of this world, as they have too much experience of criticism by evangelicals who haven’t bothered to check their facts enough or are pushing some agendaa of their own.
Terry Virgo always struck me as a sensible man, and not unwilling to accept legitimate criticism.
As an aside, NF was shepherding lite in the UK, it bred dependency on those higher up in the hierarchy but never as bad as Fort Lauderdale. When I left it behind, I remember thinking whilst still in ‘anti’ mode how we have enough divisions between fellow believers in the churches that we don’t need to create yet more ‘new frontiers’ between us!!
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Law Prof:
‘The answer to this is quite simple: New Frontiers, at bottom, is similar in kind to Mar Hill and Driscoll. They package their brutality with more cleverness, but they are at bottom a very destructive group that one should steer clear of at all costs.’
Thanks for this and as always it is interesting to hear opinions on this post, which I find really useful. My experience on a local church level hasn’t really matched this and Newfrontiers people I know don’t fit your description. It is true the local ‘apostle’ made an antisemitic remark and also described Baptist church treasurers as being like Judas Iscariot, but on both occasions he apologized when confronted and was quite chasened about the antisemitic remark. Otherwise I have found kindly and helpful, no different from the people in my Baptist Church, other than the obvious theological differences and charismatic orientation. I am still baffled…..
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Peter wrote:
Did he lose his position as an “apostle” over the anti-Semitic remark? I could care less if he was personally chastened.
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@ An old guy under the bus:
That was an excellent comment!! Welcome to TWW.
There are sinful people everywhere, including in the church. It surprises me when confessing Christians, who know the story of the Cross and Resurrection, are blind-sded or refuse to believe that a pastor or confessed Christian healer could not only be wrong but also be sinful. It is the Scriptural narrative from the beginning and will be until the end.
We should be aware that people will take advantage of others for their own selfish gain, even within the church, or should I say, especially in the church. Story after story of lies, deceit, manipulation, money mismanagement, get rich quick schemes, etc. should help us all to remember why we must beware and why we must confront duplicity.
I believe that there are some creeps out there who look at the church as a cash cow. Christian believe in miracles so it is easy to pull a “I have the cure for whatever” scheme or “I have an investment, based on the Bible, that will double your money in 3 months. ” And we fall for it because, after all, he’s a Christian, right?
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@ Sean:
Thank you for understanding. I give you props or that.
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@ Ken:
I’m quite familiar with NF. I met Terri Virgo and his wife before they led a church, much less NF. I was in a large church in the US that was melded into an earlier movement led by Welshmen from the UK. Was in that arena for 17 years. Was in a small church where the leader wanted to go Willow Creek style and expected all ‘his’ foot soldiers to follow without question (he learned well from the Shepherding movement men). Been in the quasi Reformed/Reformed arena (interesting when you believe the gifts are for today and haven’t ceased) almost as many now. I don’t believe the Bible has replaced God the Holy Spirit, nor is it on par with him. Having learned much, seen more, and experienced pain and joy, I’m thankful to still walk with God.
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Daisy wrote:
You know where you find that trope? PORN.
That is the standard plot outline of PORN.
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dee wrote:
“If your Conspriacy Theory doesn’t fit the facts, Invent a Bigger Conspiracy.”
— Kooks Magazine
“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
— Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle
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dee wrote:
Ever heard of the post-World War Two term “Good German”?
It wasn’t a complement.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I’m thinking maybe one thing I find even more annoying than that Christian (and it’s a sometimes a secular) assumption is that personally, many men I’ve met over my life assumed I was interested in them, but I was not.
I’ve had married guys assume my friendly chat or questions were flirtation. These are guys I would not want to date if they were the last man on earth.
I had a young married class mate in college (I didn’t know what his relationship status was at the time, didn’t care, was not attracted to him at all).
He and I were the two advanced students in the class (the rest were beginners). I had been out of class a few days due to sickness and missed out on the assignments and the instructor was not there.
So, I approached this male classmate (the only other advanced level guy in class) with note pad in hand to take down his explanations, and I explained to him I had been out sick recently, what assignments or projects had I missed?
And he said to me, “I’m married.”
He assumed I was hitting on him! I was steamed about that.
I was not hitting on him, I just wanted to know what class work I had missed. I have had that sort of thing happen one billion times in my life.
Men of the world, if a woman says “hello!” or asks you questions about something, please do not assume it is flirtation.
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@ Daisy:
Next time they tell you their married, ask them “whose the lucky guy?” That will shut them up.
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arrgh, dumb computer – Next time they tell you they’re married (hate, hate, hate autocorrect!)
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@ Bridget:
Give or take a few details, that post has an amazingly familiar ring to it!
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May I point you in a direction that recently shocked me completely to hear!! And if it proves true how awful it is. I just heard of it over the weekend! My goodness…we need you to dig into this one and tell us what you find! I heard rumors that a highly esteemed Bill Gothard was in fact a child molester!! Does anyone know if this is true?
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Dee and Deb, any progress on the threats you received? Perhaps it’s best that you still not discuss any updates at this point, but I’m still concerned and praying for your families.
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@ Kaitlyn Peterson:
Look at the next post!
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@ RB:
Everything is proceeding. I have come to the conclusions that there are some girly men in the state of Washington who like to talk tough, scare people and then hide. Thank you for your prayers.
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dee wrote:
Yep.
I used to think that I wasn’t very strong or tough.
Then I learned that a lot of people, both male and female, can talk a big game. But when it comes right down to it, when actually faced with conflict, they aren’t nearly as tough as they want others to believe.
And I’ve found out that there a lot of people who don’t say much, both male and female, who keep things polite and reasonable… When they are faced with conflict, they have strength to spare.
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Dee, good to hear that! Yes, bullies are usually cowards.
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Good work at standing up to these bullies